Blank Check with Griffin & David - Basic with BenDavid Grabinski

Episode Date: April 28, 2024

Our McTiernan series concludes with 2003’s BASIC - a film that Griffin thinks should instead be titled “COMPLICATED” - get it? Because there are so many plot twists?? The great BenDavid Grabinski joins us to chat about John Travolta’s run of big, skeezy characters post-FACE/OFF, McTiernan’s ultimate Achilles heel (getting too confident in his ability to fix impossible movies), the screenwriting career of studio wunderkind James Vanderbilt, and the truly terrible acting of Giovanni Ribisi. Plus, the return of Journalist Eddie Brock, our pitches for different versions of CHANGING LANES (which they should remake every five years), and our final McT filmography rankings. This episode is sponsored by: AuraFrames.com (CODE: CHECK) Burrow (Burrow.com/check) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! 

Blackjack with Griffin and David Blackjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blackjack Those of you I find lacking will quit. And those of you who refuse to quit will have a podcast. This base suffers three podcasts a year, unfortunate podcasts that I will not hesitate to repeat if you cross me. Here's the thing that's very frustrating about this movie. Already?

Already. I'd say minute ten. Okay. The reveal of Sam Jack. Yes. And you go. I mean, he's there right at the start, but yes. I guess his first real dialogue scene, maybe.

After the helicopter at the start, sure. Just regard my timecode crack. Early on in the film, when we really serve Sam Jack for the first time, and two things become abundantly clear. You're like, okay, this guy only lives in flashbacks. Right. He's probably not gonna really interact with our main character. Maybe kind of the selling point of the poster.

Sure, this thing had the Mexican vibes, yes. But it is interesting, it's interesting to have a character all exist in the past in a place, in a Rashomon-style retelling, what have you, right? But then you're like, oh, fuck, Samuel Jackson is playing a drill sergeant? In basic training? How has this never happened before? You hear him reciting this dialogue and you're like, oh my god, fucking Sam Jack, one of the greatest dresser downs, one of the greatest on-screen-

Down-dressers. Let's invent this word. Dresser downs? Down-dressers. Let's let's invent dresser downs Down dressers are either of those right? No, neither of them count as words, but we can do it. We're making both. Yeah, and Then you're like, oh he's gonna do it for like four minutes total. That's your big complaint kind of I Think that is the most juice this movie has I think this movie is a five-star masterpiece. No, I'm David Where do you truly stand? I think it's good. I think it's fun. I think this movie is a five-star masterpiece. No, I'm kidding. David, where do you truly stand? I think it's good. I think it's a fun movie. I think it's... ...fun?

I think this movie is good, and I have a few notes. But I cannot deny, you are saying what the big complaint was. And we shouldn't have used our podcast, but you got it to a writer, it's the same thing as The Mexican. Don't promise me these two together if you're not gonna give me them together. Like, that's it. Casting him was the biggest mistake of the movie,

which I'll get into two hours from now. Great. Great. That is generally how we operate on this show. I think he's kind of the best part of the movie and it fucks the movie up. They rewrote the whole mystery to justify the casting in a way that breaks the movie. I say as someone who's here because he likes the movie.

Sure. This is an interesting film. And a movie that I truly spent 20 plus years knowing basically nothing about. Basically? Basically. I should say this, the movie is hella basic. It's a little basic.

We have to get this out of the way. It literally is. I had to promise myself I wasn't going to make a joke like if it came out today, it'd be called mid. Like we're not. No, I'm going to log my letterbox. The basic thing, we're going to retire. Can I log my joke?

I guess. I've just been waiting for this and I want to post it. I want to write it out in real time. Basic, more like complicated. That is my fucking review of this movie. It's pretty good. Thank you. It's pretty funny Is it complicated Well, I think that's

I'm not saying sophisticated right complicated. I do think is the word I don't know how to hold off on getting into that part because that's the biggest part of the discussion What if you made Rashomon, but you only talked to two people for the entirety of Rashomon? It's sort of the pre-pitch of the movie. What if the Sam Jackson character was supposed to be in Travolta's trunk at the end of the movie,

and they rewrote the whole thing to avoid that and made it too complicated? Okay, well. That's the thing. Well, when we can dig into extra textual facts like that, that obviously, if that is true, is a huge problem. I did not realize that, but... You've been doing some extra textual work.

You've been... I found out so much stuff about this movie, they'll blow your mind. I actually found out that Sam Jackson and Travolta were in a movie before this. Uh... Together. Was it some indie thing?

Like an art movie or something? Like, I don't know about that. Some art house garbage Where you find out who's talking and the person who's talking is a baby You look at them. Yes, you like look who is doing it I'm just forget that Sam Jack was the physical baby that Bruce was voicing that all three Pulp fiction guys were in the same movie in Rashomon, they talk to various people about the event. It's like if you did Rashomon where you go to one guy

and he's like, well, this is what happened. The other guy's like, no, this is what happened. They go to the other guy and he's like, he's wrong, but I was lying. Anyway, here's what happened. No, but they all agreed that they were gonna lie about it, but one guy was lying for a different reason, all to try to provoke another thing to happen. Like, if you actually think about what would

happen if this wasn't a movie, you've just seen the series of events, it's like Travolta sat down with all these people and said, all right, you're gonna say this thing happened, you're gonna say this thing happened, you're gonna say this thing happened, and we're gonna make this guy say this thing happened because he thinks he's incriminated. And hopefully Harry Connick Jr. at some point will point out that this guy wasn't this guy so then I can confront him about what actually happened even though that's not what actually happened all to make this guy do this thing, but really we're in section 8. There is no internal logic to this movie because it is all to serve in theory the reaction from the audience delivering the information to them in the order that will be most shocking arcsite, right?

That's big. I mean, I don't want to be so negative so quick But it's hard to not get into the fact that like I'm of two minds about this movie Which is I really like it it also objectively makes no sense at any point And by the way, I don't mean what I just said fully as a slam because I think when a movie can Successfully stick the landing of being entertaining in that way I will forgive it not making sense. I think that if Travolta in this movie was the audience surrogate and he found out everything when we did or just a little bit before us and solved the case yes it'd be great I mean the best thing this movie has going for it is there's

one thing I want out of a movie and it's Tom Hardy asking tough questions Well, literally yes, that's what you actually want. Yeah, I'm like so I need venom in this or my favorite movies It's like when Tom Hardy is out there asking the tough questions I know that the movie is gonna be super entertaining and grounded. Are you aware and Let me just let me set up a lot of things here. This is blank check with Griffin and David I'm Griffin. I'm David or am I what I am or am I wait a second, but David Sims is white At what point was he thinking that no one was ever gonna check his ID the rest of his life and he could just keep Pretending to be that guy

I'll say that the delivery of that twist. It's a fun twist. I'll say that. The delivery of that twist. It's good. The moment, the slow motion reaction shot. It's like, this is just one of those movies where you don't care that it doesn't make sense because you're not invested enough to be like, no, I need to puzzle this out. You're just kind of like, all right, so he's black.

Whatever you want to do next, just go ahead. That's fine. I want to restate, it not making sense is not a fundamental slam for me. Well, I think- It's just that I'm stating a reality. Well, I think the reality of this movie is this is a very, very fun movie to me that is unbelievably well-made,

that is not designed to be watched a billion times. Like, I watched it more times than George Folsey Jr. to prepare for this podcast. And in some ways that was was great because I'm prepared. But in others, it's like the movie does not. It's not asking for scrutiny. And when I'm giving it, it's like, hey, stop, stop watching me, please. You're noticing too much.

Please don't watch me. Don't take me seriously. Like, stop giving me the third degree or I'll throw up on you. I think it's a little more like, stop giving me the third degree or I'll... He's like, okay, the character's gay, okay, Ted Levine. That's what I'm gonna do. That's my whole fucking take. He was like, how do gay people talk?

Buffalo Bill. I swear, had he never played a gay character before? It feels kind of astonishing. He's done so many movies. Right? But I want to be very clear. I think actors should take big swings. When it comes to acting, I'm like, Ponyo, I like Ham.

I like big swings. I love Travolta in this movie. But the... I can't go into that, but we'll get into it. The Giovanni Robisi thing in this, God bless him, I like him a lot. But I don't know what he was thinking. I don't know why no one was like, this... What are we playing here? Are you trying to be a serial killer? Or is this what you think gay people are like? I don't know what's having other Robici performances

I feel that way about and people had prepped me for this one, and I'm like I kind of enjoyed you enjoyed this one I know I think he is versus like the gift where I'm like I want to run headfirst I'm probably the gift where he kind of has a similar function of like yes Where the like I might you actually have to pay attention because he's important. I know this seems annoying. And the amount of shit he's doing makes it hard to digest the information his character is delivering. But the gift is, that performance is maybe even more offensive in a way. And in here, you're kind of like, okay, well, if I just set the one thing aside, he's really just it's just, you

know, whatever. The basics that were once again overloading information in order that's confusing to people. This is a podcast about filmography is directors who have massive success early on in their careers are given a series of blank checks, pick whatever crazy patch and projects they want. Ben is giving me a thumbs up for knowing how to do my own show We know how to do this. We're professionals

This is a miniseries on the films of John McTiernan. It's called pod Hard with a bench cast. I'm saluting. We're saluting. We're saying goodbye to Johnny, right? It's been it's been so fun with him What are you talking about? But this this film was 21 years ago and the man's still alive Surely he kept to work. Oh, no, he went to prison. This is a real trip for me because I was in one thing And never worked again. I've only heard three episodes now because when we're recording this yeah So I feel like I'm in some kind of nonlinear time travel situation where it's like we're at the end of the podcast I'm like I haven't heard hunt for an October yet guys. It's a bit of a basic You're gonna have to consult us and we'll tell you our interpretation of how the other

episodes went. Well, I'm going to have a lot of questions later when I do my rankings saying, did you guys talk about this thing? Did you talk about this thing? Our guest today is Ben David Grubinsky, who is creator, co-creator, co-showrunner, Scott Pilgrim takes off, director, writer of Happily, many other credits. A dear friend of mine. But what I was trying to set up here, do you know that based on, David, Ben,

our Spider-Man 3 episode bit, where the two of us and Jamelle kept doing impressions of Tom Hardy? Yeah, being like, why are you corrupt, man? What's your problem? Let me prove, maybe stop doing wars. Don't don't be a jerk Hey, I got my notebook here question one

Why are you jerk Ben Davids basically spent a year like spiraling out a universe of his Girl Friday style? Alright, so I was obsessed with a journalism in venom and I was a great I was obsessed with the journalism in Venom and I was a journalist. He's a great journalist. He's a great journalist. You were obsessed with his hard-hitting takes. Well, I'd been making jokes about his journalism for a bit and none of them were as good. And then when I listened to that episode, I was like scream laughing. And I had texted Griffin saying, you know, what I really want a Venom movie to be is like His Girl Friday, where he's a newspaper man.

And the banter is between Eddie and Venom. Yeah, and I kept joking about this and kind of half pitching it to people to a point where I ended up somehow commissioning a Venom artist to do like the main key art from His Girl Friday where they're like on the phone and this won't like... Because this is radio like that Well, no, this is a TV show. Everyone can see what I'm doing But I'm gonna have to show

You guys in order. I have seen this. I mean it would make sense that you'd seen I don't know if you like read my text or not. Do you think any yeah, well, that's the experience the Griffin Newman experience, but Hell yeah, I but Hell yeah Sorry, I love that it's a guy who does like venom comics for more And it just became a thing that I thought was the funniest thing in the world It's like those movies need to be about journalism. They need a quadruple down to like the Newspaper Man movies like back then can I do a

Marvel comics what if one-shot? Back then can I do a a Marvel Comics? What if one-shot? What if venom worked in a 30s newspaper? No because I'm a fucking idiot And I only keep thinking it has to be a thing that costs a hundred million dollars Well, no, I did shit. You're right. No, but that's that's way easier and something good you also black and white it's like less of a Complicated issue with it. Yeah, but that was weirdly when I was watching this first time I forgot his name was Tom Hardy and it just became very funny to me. It is it is so strange Like it is you think about how rarely there is a movie that names a character

A name that later will be claimed by a major movie star Tom Hardy, but it's because it was inspired by The Hardy Boys, which Vanderbilt grew up on, and he always wanted to write a Hardy Boys movie, and then this was his version of it, so he's like, well, I gotta call him that. This was his version of it? Well, he's like, The Hardy Boys mystery.

There's so many questions about this movie. He was doing like a 90s twisty thriller, but from his Hardy Boys child brain. Because yeah, I don't think The Hardy Boys would be part of like a secret anti twisty thriller, but from his Hardy Boys child brain. Because yeah, I don't think the Hardy Boys would be part of a secret anti-drug extra-military organization. Maybe they would. I'm pretty sure that those 90s Hardy Boys blue spine paperback,

which I actually own some, I think they had several that were like, mystery during a hurricane, and the cover is people standing there and things blowing away. Can you just imagine if you were watching like a 50s noir movie and the guys kept on being like we're looking for George Clooney see Bring us Clooney. I had on I just like the idea of Eddie Investigating someone and being like they seem okay, and then venom being like no yes no dig deeper Yes, you know like the inner plan. I'm like no it's section 8

We don't really know what the take is on Venom 3 yet, do we? Is there any chance it's spotlight? Like maybe it is. We don't know. It's actually Dark Waters. That's where they're going with it. It's the one who's, it's being directed by Kelly Martz. Who wrote the first two, correct?

Which is kind of thrilling. And she came up with the story with Hardy Co-credited and Juno temple is like the co-lead right and she would tell a girl who would never be in a super freak Cool fine. Is that right? Yeah, sure. I don't know. She's playing mid-am web. Yeah, they're actually gonna have a new take on mid-am web Yes No, I'm sorry shriek is who fucking Was in the last movie. Really? Yes. Wow. I don't remember that movie clearly. She's playing some female fucking symbiote. Maybe she's Black Cat. No, she's playing a female symbiote. Black Cat. How have they never done Black Cat? They've done so many Spider-Man movies now.

You don't remember when Academy Award nominee Felicity Jones walked into... Is it Amazing Spider-Man 2? Yes, and went, hi, I'm Felicia, your new secretary. Right, and does nothing else, and it's never resolved. You don't have anything else to say? I'll say it when we get to my spin-off movie. I don't wanna say too much,

you guys might delete me like Shalene. What is the fucking name of the, secreted, please, from here on out it's secreted. my spin-off movie. I don't want to say too much. You guys might delete me like Shalene. What is the fucking name of the... It's secreted, please. From here on out, it's secreted in honor of Anthony Pelicano. What is the name of the symbiote that fucking Juno Temple's playing? What the fuck are we talking about? I don't know.

I saw Venom, Let There Be Carnage, the second Venom film. Let There Be Carnage. Yes. Right after Seeing No Time to Die. It was a back-to-back press screening situation They take us to the you know, IMAX we see no time to die They spoiler alert kill James Bond clean scream the symbiote scream great we walk out of there We're like, oh that was a choice like this is interesting and it's like I died in no time today in real life Yeah, he died. Yeah. Yeah. No was based on true story choice, like this is interesting and it's like... But Bond died? In No Time to Die. In Real Life?

Yeah, he died. Yeah, yeah. No, it was based on True Story. And then it's like, oh, sit down. Now you watch Venom Let There Be Carnage. And I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to engage with this. Like, I don't have time for this right now. I certainly, I remember having a fun time.

It was not unfun. I was like, he goes to the club at one point. Remember that? Yeah, that was fun. Yeah, you know, there's stuff. I miss Eddie. I'm ready for him. I'm definitely never gonna get to make anything Venom now by saying what I'm about to say,

which is that I saw that movie opening night and I don't remember anything about it. And then before I was going on the plane to come here, I was like going through my iTunes to see like movies I bought to like download onto it. And one of the movies I bought was like Venom, Let There Be Carnage. I was like, wait, I bought that? I don't remember it and one of the movies I bought was like Venom let there be carnage I was like wait

I bought that I don't remember it and I purchased it so I was like I need that It's what I the venom trilogy is like the hotel, Transylvania trilogy where it's this weird battle between Star and director and the first movie is like we have entirely different ideas of what movie we're making the second movie they're like what if we hire a guy who's like Tom Hardy yes who will kind of like it's like a weird overly businessy actor right but also has the CGI experience because people like that part of it right and then the third time they're just like hire the person who Tom agrees with on everything I think think the first one, if you chop off everything before Venom appears, I really like.

Like everything until Venom appears, I'm just like, any scene that is, no, no, no, I'm saying like any scene as Tom Hardy and him, he's arguing with the symbiote, is like super entertaining to me. You said before he goes full Venom. Like when he gets in the lobster tank. Yeah, it's like, yeah, like the like the second that Venom is in frame with him

and talking about being losers or they're doing action together, all of that is a blast. Anything that's not feels like Madame Webb, but anything that Venom's in is really entertaining. And it's like the sheer will of him just performing with himself and the physical stuff he really goes for. But until it's there, it's like everyone's bored.

They're like, when is Venom showing up? Like, why do we have to do all this other stuff? I'm gonna go out on a limb and I'm gonna predict that our very normal online fans will be less upset that we talked about Venom for 10 minutes in a basic episode than they were when we talked about Becker for 15 minutes. Should we talk about Becker some more?

Any sympathy for Mr. Vengeance episode? This episode has no structure. than they were when we talked about Becker for 15 minutes. Should we talk about Becker some more? Any sympathy for Mr. Vengeance episode? This episode has no structure. Have we noticed this? It's basic! Well, the movie's called Basic because it's basic training, and he says murder is basic. When he says, when I realized this movie's set in basic training, I go, okay, now it's kind of a good title.

It's a good title. It's just a bad title to put on a poster. It's a horrible title to put on a poster and it has aged worse It now has like more weight in terms of slang of just being a write-off But I just remember seeing the poster with these two faces and the title basic and going like could they really not even bother? Right. Well, I have a rule which is that if there's a great title for a movie That's two words. You can't make a title for another movie using one of the words. So they made basic and they made instinct. Right. Which, yes. It's like neither of those are titles on their own. Together, yes. It's like there's not a movie total and there's not a movie recall. A total recall is one hell of a movie.

So like I think you have to retire the words as singular titles. I think that's a good take. Once you have a really good two-word title. That's my whole take and I'm about to leave. Like Blues Brothers, you can't have blues and you can't have brothers. Oh, they did have brothers. They did have brothers. Connie Nielsen was in Brothers. Like four brothers. Connie Nielsen.

We'll talk about Connie Nielsen. We're going to talk about it right now because we're going to talk about the film Basic. Basic. 2003 mystery action thriller directed by John McTiernan and written by James Vanderbilt. Yes. His splashy kind of debut film. His calling card screenplay that got him in, right? He's also credited on Darkness Falls and The Rundown this year.

This was his debut. This is only him. I'm in college at the time and I just started writing my first screenplays. I moved to LA when I was 2005. When you were 2005, that was your, you had embodied the year 2005. Yes, that was my nickname. So I don't even know what that means. It seems funny, but then it's not.

The hard thing about it. No, I like it. But that was like a guy, you're just like, that is an unbelievable career where it's like 2003, I could see three movies in a theater and one of them I liked, one of them I didn't see because it's Jonathan Liebsman, and then the one that is a masterpiece is The Rundown.

Yeah. Like The Rundown, if The Rundown was your best movie, you could have a career forever. And then you decide, I guess also write Zodiac. But also, right, if you're a young film nerd who's like looking to break into the business and you're looking at this guy, you're like, this guy in one year,

three studio releases that are different genres. Like how many people bought Final Draft because of that guy? Like at least me. Yeah. Like it was one of those people where I was just like, that was at that time when I would know the person who wrote every movie that came out in calendar year.

Like I could like, in college, I had it, and what happened is my sort of like, your Griffin box office thing, my memory destroyed. But for a while, I could just say, hey, who shot this movie? They'd say a random movie, I'd say the DP. Oh, who's the director of that? Who wrote it?

I could say like any domestic release movie. And now I'm like, I think I remember that movie. But at that time, I would like everybody, and it's just like I think I remember that movie but at that time I like everybody and it's just like how did that one guy write all three of those movies and like I really enjoyed basic but I thought the rundown was fucking unbelievable and it's like one of the strongest out-of-the-gate writing careers ever and two out of the three movies basically basically no pun intended flop and then four years later he writes one of the three movies basically, no pun intended, flop. And then four years later, he writes one

of the great American films. And then I think everyone was like, wait, so this guy went from being like whiz kid, spec script master, to then like delivering all the president's men. And he was 26 when they were shooting Basic. It has just been this continuing question. I propose with no rudenesseness and we talked about this to a certain degree with zodiac

In that episode but like wait, who is this guy? The basic script is good. I read it I believe it and I am very excited that you read it you you we have become friends over the last couple of years You've been a very kind supporter of the podcast and in Conversations when you and I go out and we drink too much you'll often sort of we'll talk about careers the way David and I love to talk about careers we'll just do it wantonly and then you'll sort of say if you ever cover that guy that's the one I want. Now someone recently called out in our reddit that five years ago ARP called his shot on basic. Oh right? When his bit used to be the least

essential. Yeah yeah yeah. And I texted ARP last week and I said like someone just recalled this and he went I think we've all agreed that the brand has changed the bit has changed. I mean he can go switch back to that if he wants any time it's easy. Yeah. But he wasn't feeling territorial he said like I'm excited that Ben David is doing it right and David you for the last two years have been pulling in a lot of these sort of Old-school ARP style bids of if you ever cover this person, that's the one I would want to do I mean basic like early pin for you. I don't think that's what happened

I mean that is what happened when Tom Shady X dragonfly. Well, you call that this morning No, I haven't seen it, but I think it'd be fun to talk about. And we welcome you back in your 20th of the podcast to do Dragonfly. No, that one, I have mentioned ones before. I'm like, you know, if you don't have anybody, I'd really like to do it. But that one was, we were talking about McTiernan at the Tron Bar in Edinburgh.

Correct. And I just said, you know, movies are actually pretty underrated as basic. And you looked at me and go, you're doing it. And I was like, wait, what? And you had never said that ever before. And so I wasn't saying it that way. If someone actually has an angle on an under-discussed part of a director's

filmography, such as Basic, then that's an easy booking. We're just like, perfect. I felt like up until that moment, I had not heard a single person have a strong feeling in any direction about basic as a movie. And then I had always thought of it as sort of an ultimate movie that doesn't exist. So you saw this in theaters? Yeah, so I saw this in theaters. I somehow saw like every movie Brian Van Holt was in, in that era by accident. Was he like running the box office? Like Confidence, what was that movie? Oh sure.

Is he in Confidence? Fuck he is! Yeah, he was somehow like the fourth lead in every movie that I saw by myself at the theater in my college town. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. The man is a great actor. But then he was in Cougar Town and I dressed as Windy Guy for Halloween one year where he was a guy who had like his suit where it was like pushed back and he had like newspapers

on his hair and his hair was g pushed back and he had like newspapers on his hair and his hair was gelled back and his umbrella was backwards. An incredible psych gag on Cougar Town. So yeah, I went as windy guy and acted like I was being blown around a party the whole night. So, shit that role. He is amazing on Cougar Town.

That was an underrated comic performance on a show that had a lot of underrated comic performance. But that's one of my favorite things ever when you like see a guy in a bunch of movies and you're like, so what is this guy's thing? He's a good actor, he's a character actor, I guess is he gonna be a military guy? And it's like, oh no, he's gonna be the funniest guy in a show for eight years.

It's always the guy you don't expect to be the funniest guy. Amazing on John from Cincinnati, which is obviously forgotten. That's the thing I really remember him from. But I mean, I've talked about, I tracked down the Mill Creek Blu-ray of this movie, that's the only physical release it's ever gotten. I watched it on Netflix on its last day. I remember him from but I mean I've talked about I tracked down the Mill Creek blu-ray of this movie That's the only physical release. It's ever gotten. I watched it on Netflix on its last day

I bought the DVD just to hear the commentary and I had which I had had and couldn't find but then I owned it on iTunes and it was on Netflix This is a Mill Creek blu-ray that is out of print with zero special features That is two movies on one disc and the second movie is SWAT. How a great movie. A movie David loves so I said to him would you... Also starring Brian Van Holt. That's what I fucking finally put together today. I'm like it's two 2003 Brian Van Holt with a gun movies.

I mean if you throw confidence on there you could have all three. I mean those are all 2003 movies. Yes. So the basic DVD which I bought I watched all the special features last week. Was it a special edition or basic? Oh god we're gonna run that one into the ground 10 minutes ago. Yeah it might have to be done. which I bought I watched all the special features last special edition or base Oh God we're gonna run that one into the ground ten minutes ago. We're like ten at style We're going in in reverse running into the ground

So the basic special features the end credits of all of them are that black Betty cover? So they started driving insane It'd be like five minutes on the writers process and then the black Betty cover and then the directors process and then the black buddy cover And then the the menu was like the Black Betty cover and I'm like, guys, this didn't work in the movie. Like, why do I have to keep hearing this Black Betty cover on the DVD? But it's that era that is like,

I would not have my career or my skillset if there was not for DVD special features. And when I watch them, I'm like, there's too many here. And it also makes me sad where there's so many things on the movie basic. Where there's just like an 18 minute interview with like Vanderbilt talking about like his motivations and rewrites and showing deleted scenes

and why he agreed that they were cut and like, you know, what changed when different people came on the project? And I was like, how does this exist? I know. Basic. For every movie, there was this exist? I know. Basic. For every movie there was basically that amount put in. Yeah. You do a week, right?

Well, like after you're done production or when you're about to premiere. They should have it for everything, but they just stop. It's not that difficult. Like you can shoot stuff on set, do EPK, do whatever. The thing I mostly want is the commentaries. Like that's the thing I probably do the most on a physical release, but I like everything.

I'm gonna anonymize this. Wow. I think you guys both know who I'm talking about. I talked to a very major filmmaker who in recent years has done a lot of work with Netflix about the death of the special features, who made it clear to me that a lot of that material has been delivered to Netflix because for a period of

Time they were considering it and now have decided against it because they don't think it helps their algorithm And so there are commentaries and feature ads and all these things For a lot of Netflix original movies that were made a couple years ago that now just sit abandoned. Let's have them Yeah, I can't tell if this is a brag or embarrassing, but I have to say, you made a comment like that recently on the show where you're like, yeah, you're like, a friend of the pod said this thing. And I texted you, I'm like, who said that?

I agree with him. You're like, that was you. Yeah. I was like, you after three drinks. You saw Basic in theaters. Griffin, had you ever seen Basic before? No, I hadn't seen it until last night. I saw Basic on an eight-inch TV in the Adirondacks when it was raining one day.

Perfect Basic weather. Yep, perfect Basic weather. Clearly absorbed none of it, because I watched this movie with fresh eyes. I was like... I knew there were twists. And I think I knew, spoiler alert for Basic, that Samuel L. Jackson was alive at the end. Like, I vaguely remembered that it ended with Travolta

like going to hang out with him and being like, ha ha ha ha ha! We did it. Um, that's all I remembered, though. And this plot is so confusing and twisty and it's sophisticated that I was like, wow, maybe I remember nothing! Maybe it's gonna totally surprise me.

And then at the end, they were drinking beers together. Well, the real issue today I forgot, and it's not my place to say, but I wanted to encourage people that if you haven't seen it, to not listen to what I said, that it makes no sense. Because I think it's important, I'm first viewing, to think it's gonna make sense.

I think that you shouldn't go into it knowing that nothing they're saying actually makes sense or happened. It is the anti-inherent vice. Where like inherent vice, I believe strongly you need to watch it with the understanding that none of it matters and that you only need to be following it on an emotional character level. Like the first time I saw that movie I hated it because I was trying to puzzle it out and Like the first time I saw that movie I hated it because I was trying to puzzle it out And that is not the way to watch that film sure this movie you need to believe that

None of this is meaningless or nonsense You need to you like you can't the enjoyment of it. You're thinking it's gonna add to go along with their charade Yeah, I also I mean the poster which it's like Travolta looking skeptical. Yeah, Jackson You know, he's got kind of like a cape like vibe I mean it what looks like the trench coat which is basically right historically Samuel Jackson's greatest co-star Across his career is a long fucking duster. It is in fact a caper or a poncho or whatever I think right and then he like there are a bunch of shadowy figures behind Jackson and it says, deception is the most dangerous weapon.

The poster looks like a movie about Travolta trying to take down a black ops unit led by Jackson that's gone rogue. The poster should be like, this is mostly set in two rooms. Yes. It's an interview movie. This is like a few good men riff.

Yeah, exactly. My cultural memory of this movie was that poster, Yes, like it's an interview. This is like a few good men. Yeah, exactly my cultural memory of this movie was that Poster and I remember seeing trailers or TV ads where I'm just like I just remember guys standing in the rain screaming pointing guns at Each other I remember seeing the plane. I have no idea what this movie is other than it's some sort of military intrigue investigation That seems very emotionally rot now. We did our legal draft episode with the big picture a couple months ago. Five years ago now probably by the time this episode comes out. Where I watched a few good men and the new Friedkin, King Mutiny court martial very closely together.

And this movie, I would believe you if you told me this was like a black box play that people fucking loved. And it was like, it was blowing up in LA, and then they tried to adapt it, and it was a little hard to open up the story for the screen. It feels like not a spec script of like, what's the thing I can do to make my career take off in film? It weirdly, and I'm not saying this is the failing of the script, it's weirdly a failing of the movie that as you said, it feels like it takes place in two rooms. Basically with flashbacks.

Yeah. But hospital bed and random room that Brian Van Holt is in. And most of the flashbacks are in two rooms? Yeah, basically. Well the script was much smaller and before McTiernan came on, this was a Catherine Keener and Benicio del Toro movie. That I found out.

We're gonna talk about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like that pitch. I like that pitch a lot. Especially like the Catherine Keener pitch. Love the Catherine Keener pitch. But also the drill sergeant guy was a racist white guy who like was not introduced in the beginning

and was only in flashbacks, and it's just sort of like who killed this guy. Right. So I think that that guy, it's much better if he's a character actor and not the thing, but we'll get into that later about I think the pros and cons of putting someone as awesome as Sam in the movie.

Yeah, it just, it does unbalance. I'm opening the box office. Not the box office, close that. The dossier, Jesus Christ. The box office is open, but we'll talk about that later. Can we trust the dossier who wrote it? Was it Section 8? Oh my god, there's a big E on the top. The dossier just threw up on me. Oh. What's up? David? Yes? I'm so stressed out. Okay. I got something to prove. I got ship on my shoulder. What's going on? Last year I lost Mother's Day.

You loser! I know. I came in bronze out of the three Newman children. Holy smutepodium. Yeah, there was no fourth kid! There's no lower I could have ranked! Oh boy. Yeah. Uh, well, are you ready to win Mother's Day and cement your reputation as the best gift giver in the family? Yeah, absolutely, because I gave her a blank check t-shirt last year and she wasn't that amused.

Uh, well, give the mom in your life an Aura digital picture frame preloaded with decades of family photos. That's what will win me the gold. She'll love looking back on your childhood memories and seeing what you're up to today. Even better, with unlimited storage and an easy-to-use app, you can keep updating mom's frame with new photos

so it's the gift that keeps on giving. Okay? Although you could also just give an Aura Frame to anyone else in your life and put in any kind of photos you want in there. That's true. But right now Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. Listeners can save on the perfect gift

by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $30 off plus free shipping on their best selling frame. That's A-U-R-A, are a frames calm use code check at checkout to save Terms and conditions apply David Mother's Day isn't the only major holiday coming up. There's also David's day Okay, and what if I got you an or frame filled with photos of Colin Farrell? Lovely and you can sort of chart his rise and fall fresh face in the rebound. Come on Oscar nominee Well, I'm sorry rise and fall and rise, right? The first we've talked about many things that McTiernan was attached to that never happened, right?

This is post rollerball during rollerballs production. I guess and Juvanna Who produces many a Schwarzenegger film obviously pitches him on Terminator 3, as we discussed on that Patreon episode, and then also pitches him on Basic Instinct 2. Yes, right. Which, people forget, was a David Cronenberg project that was, you know, immediately fell apart because he and Sharon Stone didn't get along Stunning that like right there might be some issues there basic in sync to a classic like they really tried to make the a

Version of that movie they could not figure it out and then realize that they had constructed contracts where they were gonna have to pay Sharon stone 17 million dollars for not making the movie. And they were like, let's just make the shitty version. We just make the most- They made it with poor old David Morrissey. Absurd, ridiculous version of this movie because otherwise we're just taking a complete bath. Well, I was told that McTiernan got really far down the road

on Basic Instinct 2 and then at the last minute quit and jumped to this. I can tell you exactly that because Benjamin Bratt was his chosen star. He said the title has two words too many. Can we just call it basic? I'm sorry, go on. He was very high on Bratt's traffic performance.

Bratt is very good in traffic. Makes sense. And was like, this guy's a movie star. Bratt decides not to do the movie, decides to instead make the Stephen Gagin movie abandoned, which is mostly forgotten, I would say. And so then McTiernan turns to Pierce Brosnan, which I love.

I... I mean, not that that movie's ever gonna be good. I mean, like, who knows? But, like, certainly the script that we are working with, I think is pretty bad. I think any sexy thriller that looks like a McTiernan movie that has Pierce Brosnan in it, I would watch eight times. Um, he...

It's a compelling notion. I think he pitched also, like, what if we don't make it basic instinct, too? What if we literally call it risk addiction? It has a basic instinct vibe, and it's Pierce and Sharon. But you do a runaway bride, basically. I mean, obviously not the same two stars, but you just go, like, it's Sharon doing her thing again

And he has this whole pitch of like maybe You know, I don't know he made me he the brat pitch at least was like the character can be Cuban And he's seduced by wealth and luxury not just the woman. Okay, like he you know, he has lots of ideas eventually Yes, he probably just sees the writing on the wall of like this is a nightmare Yeah, like you're following up a big hit you're working with someone who has their own stake in the project Lots of ideas. Eventually, yes. He probably just sees the writing on the wall of like, this is a nightmare. Yeah. Like you're following up a big hit. You're working with someone who has their own stake in the project.

Like it's not going to work out. He runs away from it. A project that was so cursed that Robert Downey Jr. turned down the opportunity to be in it. The early 2000s. Yes. There's another movie called The Extractors. Do you guys know this movie?

I don't think so. Written by Kevin Fox and James DeMonaco, who wrote The Negotiator. It's about a group of ex-cons who break prisoners out of jail for a price. Sounds kinda cool. He wants to make it with Samuel L. Jackson. That sounds fun.

Doesn't happen. Interesting. And he also circles a movie written by Leslie Dixon, who wrote Thomas Crown, called Smoke and Mirrors, which is the thing about the guy that Houdini's name is based on. Right. Jean Robert Houdin. Right, we've talked about this.

Yes, yeah. And he wanted Michael Douglas and Caffeine Zeta-Jones to be in it. Yes. Doesn't happen. Okay, that's McTiernan, James Vanderbilt. So do you know James Vanderbilt? No, I mean, like, we follow each other on Twitter, which I would never call

something else, which will probably not even exist by the time this episode comes out. Or we will own it. It'll be one or the other. No, it's just been, you know, one of those people who are you like, that guy's awesome for a very long time. But yeah, I just I'm sort of just fascinated by his career and his output. And it's one of those guys who's just like, it's like multiple movies that could just be like the only cool movie you made. Yeah. He graduates from USC and he sells this screenplay for about $500,000.

He's like 25 at the time? Yep. Yeah. Nice work if you can get it. There was a big bidding war about it. Lee Tamahori is the original director. Coming off of Along Came a Spider, I think. Correct. Who also at one point was supposed to do

Basic Instinct 2, like I find the soup of all of these. It's so true. And it's in this last gasp era of these R-rated thrillers with older movie stars. I mean, every movie has a list of the same ten guys who they go to if they're available. But this real, like, McTiernan's on a downswing, Tomahorny seems like he might be on an upswing. They're still trying to make R-rated thrillers for grownups with movie stars. All this money's getting slushed around, and then it it's like do they have to be sequels to old things Whatever go on del Toro and Keener

That's announced like it's like announcing variety. So Toro's just one is Oscar Keener Just is coming off like being John Malkovich, etc, right? like you know it's wilder than that because I looked up the variety story announcing Keener and del Toro in talks for Lee Huh Tomahawry's basic. The story calls out There's a lot of buzz about his role in the upcoming Steven Soderbergh film traffic Yeah, they announced that he's being cast in the lead-up to traffic's release, right? Yeah, it's it's traffic buzz You're right. It's traffic buzz which would be fucking I mean But I do know that movie version was supposed to be

like a quarter of the budget of what this one was. Right, which makes sense. Probably would have been to everyone's benefit. No, I mean, like I love how McTiernan executed this, but I think that this movie inherently should have been a smaller character sort of thing. I mean, you can speak to this, not to just briefly pause the context here,

but like my thing about this feeling like it was adapted off a play is not a slam about the script being stagey. I read it as, here is a young guy writing a script that he thinks could feasibly get produced, right? If you're trying to like put your calling card scripts out there, you can write a fucking spec script for a 150 million budget thing, but that's a huge swing.

If you write a basic that is just like, oh, on the page, this thing's exciting, it's got twists, it's got snappy dialogue, and you could probably make it for X amount. I mean, I think it's funny, the first script that I ever sold, like back in 2006, was something that I thought was going to be like a very small, it's a couple people in a room movie, and then a studio bought it, and they spent all this time like being like, should it be

John Heater, should it be Eddie Murphy, should it be this director, should it be this, and the whole time I'm like, I just don't know if this works big. And then it fell apart and like 15 years later, the producer on it I ran into and he's like, later I realized that should have been like a Sundance movie. And I was like, well, that's sort of what I was thinking at the time is that there's some movies where the best version of it is tiny. And like at what point do we wanna talk about

what happens in the script? Should we just get that out of the way now? Let's get's get through the rest. I don't want to I don't want to blow your Structure. No, you're not Relax who cares like you say Intermedia gives them more money and so suddenly it's like, okay This needs to have stars and and I think a lot of September 2001 That's a terrible terrible thing happens John Travolta and Samuel Jackson are cast in this movie. I'm kidding Great joke now that five comedy points. No, I just want to say it's another

thing that fucks up the size of this movie is like when it's a hot script and there's a bidding war and they're paying this much for the script after like a fight for the rights. Yes. Then whoever gets it is going to be like, well this is now a major movie. Right. In our mind we fought for this. This was a jump ball.

Right. We're not gonna make this as a $5 million drama. Now, as Ben David said, did you say this on mic? Vanderbilt says this was written as a Hardy Boys homage. Well, I said that like, yeah, that he was called Tom Hardy because he always wanted this to be like, inspired by his love of Hardy Boys books yeah. Do the Hardy Boys investigate murders or isn't it just like someone left some treasure in a cave or something?

I've never read a Hardy Boys book. They're usually based on Rashomon and during a hurricane. It's kind of about like you know racial dynamics within a military unit. Propeller interrogations. No I feel like the Hardy Boys will have the like, someone's dead and then the twist at the end is they're not, I mean, which is what this fucking movie does. You know, like I think any threat of death

in a Hardy Boys story has to be undone ultimately by the end. A lot of missing, case of the missing blank. He's more interested, he says, in writing a murder mystery than like a military thriller. So it's the military side he has to kind of like research and build out. Like he structures a screenplay that's like, okay, twistier, twistier, twistier, right?

It's like a murder mystery thing. So he's reading all about like army rangers, right? And how military interrogation works, I guess, like that's the stuff. But I do think it's wise because like military, you can kind of get away with a lot of stuff. Totally. Like they do seem to just have their own rules, right?

Or at least audiences can buy like, yeah, the cops won't get involved in this. Right, in my perception is that they have their own rules, which is probably wrong it might be a Slightly like but it's a way of thinking about that's kind of it's what I've learned from the movies It's why movies can still keep pulling that shit on me Yes He wanted with Hardy to make an atypical action hero. He hasn't shaved. He's, right? The audience will...

A typical hero. Sounds like you've just described John McClane, the guy you created, helped create, who then became a prototype. No, but Vanderbilt wants this. Oh, Vanderbilt. Sorry, sorry, sorry. This isn't yet McTiernan, but in the initial script, apparently, Hardy is the villain. This is what you're referring to, right, Ben, David?

Like, it's like, he killed West. Yeah, it's not necessarily that he's a villain, but he did kill him and cover it up, and they all worked together. He did the whodunit. Yeah, because in the script, if I remember correctly, I haven't read it in a bit, you realize the way it was originally constructed is that Sam Jackson's character was in on the drug thing.

And Travolta had an axe grind because he had worked under him a long time ago. But everyone was sort of bad on some level, but he was sort of a bad guy killing a bad guy and covering it up. And the movie ended with his character in Travolta's character's trunk. Yes, right. And he's been there the whole time.

Yeah, like he's basically been dead in his trunk the whole time, and you find out, like, on the last page of the movie. And the... I think the... It's one of those things where McTiernan was right, that if Sam Jackson is that character, you can't do that. The first time they meet, he's like, we're just, we just can't do that.

We can't kill Sam Jackson. But it's like the problem that he's created by time they meet, he's like, we just can't do that. We can't kill Sam Jackson. But it's like the problem that he's created by casting Sam Jackson, which is like, you want more Sam Jackson, you want scenes with him and Travolta together, but it's also like a much more simpler movie to not have the Section 8 stuff. Like all the Section 8 stuff is invented

to create an additional twist to not have it end with Sam Jackson dead in a trunk. The Section 8 thing is so fucking stupid. I don't mind because like we've all been saying, it's just like, okay, like, you know, this movie's not been good enough for me to object too hard. But yeah, there's just like, yeah, we're Section 8. We kill our, like we pretend to die and then we deal with problems

I'm like, but now you faked your death But also you can't like reappear the thing we're cutting Nielsen is walking down like bourbon Street in slow motion right and she looks up and she sees the giant inflatable eight ball and like don't don't happens on the score feels like when a single camera 2000s comedy show parodies a movie with too many twists. Well, when they first met when she says her whole thing about infinity or section eight on the commentary, McTiernan said, Oh, they just did the X-Files theme in the score. Oh, the composer threw that in without me realizing it.

And it's like, it feels to me a lot off the rack, Like the thing that McTiernan is so good at is, one, he says he is always trying to make a boy's adventure, but two, he's the king of making movies that could be dark but feel joyful. Like if you think about all of his best movies, there is this thing I get, this jolt of happiness from watching them. Totally.

And it's all designed for him because he's like, I wanna have the movie end with you leaving being like yeah you know like but this is not that kind of movie I think the best version of basic makes you leave kind of bummed out and I think that he found to him what was the best way to make a version of the story that had kind of a fun twist ending where it's kind of like these people are all friends now, and they're gonna go on an adventure,

and yay, movies! Which is usually my favorite way to feel after a movie, but with this, it feels forced. It feels like you're doing a dark murder mystery, but at the end, it's like kind of Scooby-Doo. If Del Toro is playing this character, and it turns out he has a body in his trunk, the audiences would walk out being like,

that makes sense. But Del Toro killing a racist, white drill sergeant, they're like, OK, I get it. There'd be kind of a nasty buzz. Like, people would be a little amped up by the Tarantino-esque, I watched something that feels a little uncomfortable. I do think McTernan Travolta both are right, because Travolta also was like, he can't be an out and out

villain. Like, yeah, no, Travolta can't like, he can't be an out and out villain. Yeah, no, Travolta can't have killed Samuel L. Jackson. People would hate that. But also in this weird era of Travolta, clearly wanting to play more villainous, wanting to play heel, you know? You get the sort of face off dip,

the toe in the water of having it both ways, but it's like this is coming off of Swordfish. Yeah. He's in this, like, can I be a piece of shit mode? Look, I have a Travolta. I have something on that. When I watched this movie to prepare- And I recently rewatched Swordfish.

When I watched this movie to prepare for the pod on a plane a couple months ago, I brought this in Swordfish on a plane and watched him back to back. You were probably watching this, yeah, for a while. And that was months ago, I brought this in Swordfish on a plane and watched him back to back. And that was a wild, I'm like, I'm the only person on a plane who's ever watched Basic and Swordfish back to back. And it was a very wild way to look at that point

in his career, which we can get into later if we want. Well, you know what? Now we just have to get right into it, because yes, we have to talk about, we're post-Battlefield Earth, so obviously there's been a relatively recent public humiliation of John Travolta after his genuine bounce back post-Pulp Fiction, obviously. Sorry, my only other question,

just in terms of placing this in context, when does this start filming? Okay, well. Because of Rollerball being pushed back, I'm curious about when this happens in the film. Well, then I have to go back to the dossier I was alright. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what I trust the dossier I would say reopen the dossier. I would say this is not no, I know I know but I don't have to incredibly complicated task

Griffin it is because we were so long casting and I was gonna do Travolta thing We're not in production yet, which is later in the dossier. Okay, okay, okay. I don't know when it was shot. Then you know what? I will open up the dossier. YouTube talk. He doesn't say. He blew it. Section 8 blew it. It doesn't say when they started, when they started, like, what year they started production.

But when does Rollerball come out? Rollerball comes out in 2002, but was supposed to come out in 2000. Yeah, but when in 2002? February. I will look all this up. My guess is they shoot this after it comes out. Because, like, how long could they have possibly worked on Basic? When? In February. I will look all this up. My guess is they shoot this after it comes out. Because like, how long could they have possibly worked on basic?

No offense to it. Say the point that you were gonna make and I'm gonna try to do the math on all this. No, the Travolta is a whole thing. Are we ready to open the Travolta box? I'm ready to talk about the Travolta box. Okay, so like 90s Travolta, right? Post pulp fiction, get shorty.

Michael we've discussed. But was it a hit, right? Michael's a hit. Denominon, a hit.. But was a hit, right? Was Michael a hit? Phenomenon, a hit. Broken Arrow, a hit. Reasonable hit, yeah. Face Off, a hit. Big hit. Civil Action didn't do that well but got okay reviews.

People forget, of course, he's in every scene of the Thin Red Line. He's all over that fucking movie. Primary Colors, a hit. And Critically Acclaimed. Well, actually, it did okay. No, no, that was not a hit. But it did have Critically Acclaimed. Critically Acclaimed. But he gets, it did okay. Well, no, no, that was not a hit. That was not a hit. But it did have critically acclaimed.

Critically acclaimed. It gets award attention. But was a box office... General's Daughter, a genuinely nasty movie. A hit! A hundred million dollar summer blockbuster. But what is his persona at this point, right? Impossible to pin down. This is what I'm trying to throw to you guys.

This is what's so weird about... I'm glad we're getting into this. And obviously we've discussed Lucky Numbers as well, which is a little before this. Yeah. Glad we're getting into this and obviously we've discussed lucky numbers as well, which is a little before this Yeah, but it is weird how? Successful and beloved he is for that run where you're like Can you go to any person on the street and have them define what we like about John Travolta? Cuz it's but David do you have a take on this like because I think I do Not a chameleon. It's not like no

He throws himself into these weird things. Part of what I like is I never know what he's gonna do next. And you're like, he's got a real specific vibe as a performer. But then he's applying it in very weird directions. But my take is that... And disparate directions. Once he was doing well again, he sort of felt like, well, this is always gonna work.

And he stopped sort of working in things that felt airtight or really exciting. Playing with house money now. And it's really a point of like, oh, well, we're going to pay you a lot of money. And he's like, oh, I think that could be cool. Oh, I like that guy. The confidence is good, I would say, especially

for like a broken arrow or a face off, or even a civil action where it's like, yeah, you're playing a big personality, right? You're kind of funny, you're kind of annoying, but people roll with it, right? Like something like Get Shorty, that's actually a really honed comic performance. Like perfect.

He's playing a guy who is really locked down and kind of scary, he's genuinely threatening, he's very funny. That's a great comic performance. Primary Callers, I think, is a pretty great comic performance where he's playing a really flawed guy who you're kind of with in the movie and the whole point is you fall out of love with him,

much like the main character. By the end, you're like, I know why people like this guy, but I have sort of come to learn how flawed he is. Face off, Broken Arrow, I like these performances, but this is more just him being like, I can go how big? Like this? This?

This? I think you're getting to the heart of the thing. I think you're right, which is he has this insane comeback thing, right? And I've talked about this before, in previous episodes I've talked about that I feel the framing of Tarantino saved Travolta from

Oblivion right incorrect because the look who's talking movies were so fucking big and older listeners will be like you understand That didn't like matter. He was not a serious movie star No, which I agree with I think he was a movie so he was in movies I think a better analogy is like pre-McConness on Smokana. He where it's like this guy had ten years of hits that no one respected That then started to wane off where it's like he's gotten bumped down a couple tears Yeah, he's still going above the title guy It wasn't that long ago that it was you know how to lose a guy in ten days rather than ghosts of girlfriends past Yeah, and when he started being good again, it was like, oh shit, he's back to A-list and also

we take him seriously now. So Pulp Fiction is coming off of his biggest hit, but it's a hit that didn't give him any credibility. None at all. Like, if anything, it may have hurt his credibility even if it raised his quote. It made him seem silly and it's sort of the kind of movie where I think the studios almost go, oh, that's like a movie star that dumb people like in silly movies.

If you look at his post, you know, his 90s post-Pulp Fiction, there are no flops. No. There are movies that get less good reviews or whatever. That's city white man's burden. White man's burden doesn't really count because that was shot before Pulp Fiction. Yeah, I mean, that movie is insane. Have you seen that movie?

Yeah, that movie is... That one doesn't count. Just quickly, just to get your response on Mike, do you know what White Man's Bird is? It's Thinking Emoji, the movie, if you want. I'm not familiar with it. It's one of the classic Travolta Harry Belafonte two-handers. Oh, sure. Tell on the premise.

Sure. I want you to understand, this is the movie Travolta has in the can two-handers on the premise sure I want you to understand This is the movie Travolta has in the can when he does pulp fiction produced by Laurence Bender It was a Jersey movie. Yeah, and the premise is what if we lived in a society? Where black people? Were racist to white people like like black people are on top and white people are not you don't have to explain it Like like black people are on top and white people are not you don't have to explain it So like rich guys are black people. It's insane. What if yes?

And that's it. That's the movies whole take on that is like lives in a mansion He's like who's this dirty white man outside of my lawn and they get into a fight It's legit that that approach that is like with the rich guys And you're like, like oh do you have any more for me on this? No, not really. This wasn't a porch movie? Absolutely not and I just I want to be really crystal clear as far as what my take is on this thing I just heard about the first time. It sounds like trash and I have zero interest in ever engaging with it. Yes. I watched it on TV. It's interesting. But like that movie comes out the same year as Get Shorty, right? It's like Pulp Fiction. Holy shit. Travolta. Oscar nomination. Get Shorty. What a good follow-up. Has Travolta figured it out?

Like Get Shorty, Pulp Fiction, back-to-back. You're like does he know who 40-something Travolta is to a T? Is he picking the exact right material? Is his movie star persona so honed? White man's burden, everyone's like, we all agree to just ignore this. Forget that one. John Mulligan, it's fine. In 96 he makes four hits. Michael, hit.

Phenomenon, hit. Broken Arrow, hit. Orientation, a Scientology information film. They showed that to this day. Residuals on that thing. And then yeah, okay, in 97, Mad City is not a hit, but like you're gonna do a costic Avarice movie with Dustin Hoffman.

She's so lovely, same kind of deal of like, oh, it's like on Madecassavetti's script, don't you want me to do that? Got like a Sagnon. I actually think he's quite good in that film. He is. Yeah. And then 98, like Civil Action is not a hit. But Face Off, huge hit, like covers those things.

He's good in that movie. Yeah. And once again, like gives him credibility. Face Off is on my top five of all time, so no one's allowed to talk shit while I'm in New York City. I like Face Off more than him. I love Face Off, I just prefer Con Air. Which is an insane opinion. All over again.

But it doesn't... Con Air is great, but what the fuck? I'm just telling you what my taste is. Con Air is like a lot of fun. Face Off is special. I'm just telling you what my taste is. Face Off is one of the best American action movies ever made, even though it's not made by an American, and Con Air is awesome.

I love Con Air, but it's not like a great action movie, although it's one of the best ensemble casts of all time. Con Air has an amazing cast. That's probably why I like it more, because it's character actor city. There are character actors in Face Off. I mean... Con Air has more character actors than any movie has ever had, doing insane shit. There's really good actors having a really good time in face-off. Both movies have a lot of ideas.

Both movies have extensive face surgery, right? Oh no, it's just face-off that has that. 1997, man. Like, those movies just came out months apart. I love that just like, when they put Nicolas Cage on the rock, it's like, what if we put this guy who has no business being in an action movie in it and that'll give it such a unique energy and within months he's like I'm ripped and I'm a fucking action star and it's like yeah dude. Let's throw out Travolta and Cage's

counterpoints right where it's like Cage weirdo actor gets his 90s legitimacy Oscar it's now like oh oh fuck, is this guy a conventional A-list movie star? And he's the weirdest version of a movie star, but he makes his brand, you don't know what the fuck I'm gonna do, right? Like to a certain degree, he makes his brand Chaos. And it's like, I'm gonna do everything.

And what people look for is the energy and the surprise. And sometimes he takes huge swings that don't work. Travolta is not stretching that far, but it also feels like he has no handle on what his thing is. And what's wild is that, as you said, like in a year like 96, you're like, Michael, Phenomenon, Broken Arrow. Are any of those exactly what he should be doing?

We can debate it, but audiences are buying all three. 1998, Civil Action, Thin Red Line, Primary Colors, none of those movies really connect at the box office. Only two of them is He the Guy, but I think the industry is like, look he's making interesting choices. We're not gonna ding him any points for doing a fucking Nichols movie and a legal thriller and like one scene in a Malik film. General's Dark, huge hit for what you said is a super dark movie that shouldn't be commercial.

It's not good. You know it's not good. It's directed by Simon West though, who you fucking love and apparently are gonna. You just said it's better than John Woo? It's better than Face Off, yeah. But here's my thing about, so that was all lead up to. 2000s Travolta. Exactly.

Where it feels like the note he has taken from those years is like, you guys want like broken arrow. That's all that you want from me. You want me to be really big, charismatic, but in kind of like a slimy way. And like every role he does, lucky numbers we can set aside for a second, but that is kind of in that. Like, domestic disturbance, unsavory. Domestic disturbance, swordfish, basic. Gold member. And himself as Austin, who is he playing? Gold member.

Gold member, right. Himself as gold member, right. In gold member. Like, it's just like, why is that the only role you're now doing, buddy? And how quickly you get to 2004, and it's like, you're the villain in The Punisher? Right. It's like, now everyone assumes you have a soul patch. And you're not even the lead anymore? Right. As much as we all love overthinking this stuff, the thing about him, where I kind of don't think too much about Travolta

in that way, is that Siren Night Fever is so big. It'd be like if you made an album that sold 200 million copies and you don't really need to go on tour anymore. And sometimes I miss being a star. Oh, it's great, I'm winning awards. I guess I'm gonna keep being a star. Oh, I like doing this.

It's like, he just sort of, he will always be John Travolta and there'll be ebbs and flows and whatever. They'll still let him present at the Oscars every year even when he's so good at reading cue cards. I mean come on. But I think the thing is it's like the the only thing in the trajectory of his career that really like stands out in terms of like changes is that Quentin's a guy who's like, blowout is amazing and his performance in it is God level. That's why I wanna put him in here.

He's not just, who's a star I can get. Whereas almost 99% of his movies are, we need a movie star. Is Travolta still a star? Oh, he is, great, let's get Travolta. It's not usually as laser focused. I think that's true. Who's a guy who you put above the title?

He still counts as an above the title guy. Swordfish, to me, is just the nexus of so many things, though. Because Swordfish is a movie where Hugh Jackman is the lead of the film and is the handsome good guy. Right? As a hacker who really should be like a John Hawks style guy or like Scoot McNary. And instead he's like Wolverine Bodd, lives in an Airstream trailer, you want to fuck him every second he's on screen. Halle Berry can't stop showing him her boobs. She shows him her boobs for one second, but yeah.

But it's part of the plot, she's trying to trick him into thinking she's a DAA agent, but she's really working with Travolta. Not to reveal the twist of Swordfish, but I'm about to. Swordfish has the same twist as Basic, where Travolta in the end and Halle Berry are like, we're part of a secret agency that does something. I'm actually kind of a good tally. Right. What do you do?

Ah, I don't know, don't worry about it, goodbye. But like, the direction there, either from him or from the great Dominic Cena or whoever, is like, slimeball. Give me slimeball. I mean, in this movie, in basic, he has the scene where I'm watching the first ten minutes of this performance, I go, what the fuck is Travolta doing? And then he says to Connie Nielsen, I bet you didn't expect me to be a scumbag, huh? And I'm like, that's what this is?

Okay. Now here's the only thing, I think you don't like this performance. I don't. I think it's great. I think it's a good time. I already used my Ponyo joke about it. I think it's, I love it. I'm having a really good time,

but I don't feel like he is selling a guy who is charming the girl. No, no, he's charming me. He is charming the audience. I'm like, wow, this is what you're doing. I'm definitely not like, wow, women love this. Yeah, that's the only thing. I love everything he's doing in the movie.

I just don't. I think it's in the wrong movie. I know. No, I think the movie that they're making, this is it. I just don't. So I just watched Thomas Crown Affair again. And the first scene with Renee Russo and Pierce Brosnan is Like I was levitating like they're bickering with each other and I'm like they clearly kind of like each other

But they don't like this like I love I love in any movie where to a guy and a girl like I don't like you I don't like you either. I'm like, but they're gonna But there's never a second there's never a second this movie where he's like kind of hitting on her I'm like, she's gonna like it. No All right. So who is this is my argument for Travolta in this movie is I'm trying to think I have my argument No, I want to hear yours too. But like so who's the boring guy who could play this role? You know a little more straightforwardly at the in 2003 like who del Toro, because del Toro is that, he's not boring, he's gonna do his own thing.

I'm gonna tell you exactly who I think should have played this at the point where the script got too big and it had to be this level. Bruce! Well, okay, that's actually a great answer. Thank you. So, but... The moment we got to the scumbag line,

I went, oh, fuck, this character needs to be David Addison from Moonlight. Right, so but here's the thing about Bruce. Moonlight, excuse me. No, he's in Moonlight as well. He's in the background, you don't really see him much. He's the one light guy in Moonlight. Who's, what's Bruce Willis doing in 2003?

Like what's a Willis film around then? Tears of the Sun. Wow, so memorable. This is what I'm saying, flip of the coin. Right, like Hearts War, Tears of the Sun, right, so memorable. This is what I'm saying, flip of the coin. Right, like hearts war, tears of the sun, right. It's not exactly a glowing... I love Bruce Willis. You know I do. Yes.

I do think he would play this straightforward, a little more straightforward, right? My pitch, and part of why I'm pitching him, is because it is McTiernan, and I want to believe that their history would get it out of him, right? That like, the early section of him going more David Addison than McClain, of like, I'm fucking, look at me, I'm like charming everybody, this and shit.

Like, I'm like, that would be fucking Bruno, right? And then I believe that Bruce would sell at the end the like, no, I'm like, serious. I think there's a problem with the character as it stands in terms of the deception, which is, I want this character to be like McClane in Die Hard with a Vengeance where he's hungover but it has to do with it.

But because this guy is lying the whole time and really playing everybody, it's like, I don't want the guy who's pretending he's not Kaiser Soze to also be pretending to be hungover and then you realize he's like lying the whole time. Like, I think that this movie, I wish that the guy was just a hungover guy who's kind of sleazy, who accidentally is like, oh my god, my friend did this? Oh, this thing is happening? I agree. In 2003, you're getting to the era where you run the risk of Bruce being totally checked out Right, it goes either way

He's a little checked out in a lot of movies around this time And if you're getting checked out Bruce, then you're relying more on the structure and twists of this movie Which I don't think which I think would be bad and I think I'm a version where he's like a knuckleballer How does he even know what the strike zone is. Every pitch is interesting. None of them are strikes. You know what I mean? Like, every...

His approach to every scene, you're like, well, I don't think that's the approach, buddy, but I'm enjoying you trying this. I want to circle back to, I do think there's some weird transference thing that happens by... From him being given permission in 1997 to pretend to be Nicolas Cage, an actor who could get away with shit that no one else could get away with, and sometimes would flop wildly, right?

To booze and jeers from America. But like, had that sort of like, just electric insanity. I have a hot take though, which is I think they should have switched parts. I think Sam Jackson should have been the lead and Travolta should have been the general. I think that's an incredibly good take. Here's the whole thing with Basic.

I think it just needs to be made 10 times. Yes. I think we need to go back in 2003 and be like, you have the budget to make this film 10 ways. One's going to have Bruce. One, you're going to swap John and Sam. We'll have the del Toro keener one. You're going to lose 10 mil from the budget.

We're going to try them all. There's a lot we can do with Basic. And David, I want to loop you into this. David and I recently had a very provocative text conversation. Oh no. When I had rewatched Changing Lanes, and so badly wanted to on Revisico, like this thing's quietly an eight. And I was like this thing remains a five with seven moments and qualities. I'm gonna give it a six with seven moments, but sure. It's a it's a jump in six

It's not seven it doesn't have seven moments in the movie or moments that are rated seven moments that hit seven or eight Okay, even get to eight. Yeah, I'd say it's a I think it's a baseline six with flashes of eight, right? Which makes it a little more frustrating that it's not an eight all the way, right? Which is why I wanted to rewatch it and think discover in fact And my take art that we were kicking back and forth was like I wish changing lanes had been made in 1947 and was a movie that was remade every 20 years with two different stars of the moment Because if we were in an era where you're up to our six changing lanes one or two of them would be great

And we change should be like the Starsborn. Yeah. Right. And we were like, it's a shame we didn't get the fucking Sidney Poitier, Ernest Borgnein changing lanes. Right. It's a shame we don't now today have. We had, we had one.

We really needed changing lanes that was actually directed by John Peters. Like. With Barbara. Yeah. And Diana Ross. Oh man. Yeah, you had that one Let's see. I feel like we had a couple others But uh, oh you cuz there is I said party and Paul Newman, right? Right Jake. I said You said it would now be like Michael B. Jordan and Barry Kuygen or something. I mean, not terrible. Not terrible. Weiger pitched Gene Wilder and

Yaffa Cotto. I mean, come on! I think the listeners need to know that you have the Austin Powers collectible card game thing on your desk. The desktop display. I keep forgetting what I'm going to say when I see it. I'm like, I want want to play that I can turn it the other way so it's not so striking But also you can get some dupes on the way out. That's your your door prize for doing the show. Okay, so Just to give you some dossier stuff on Travolta. He did train with the 75th our Ranger regiment you can do Yeah, you can really specificity and a discipline the guy just screams military. Yes There's a specificity in the discipline. The guy screams military. Yes It's a pretty good quote from him

It was tough because I'm not a big fan of all that hard stuff like dieting and getting in shape I was willing to do it in fairness to myself. I started three years ago for swordfish But I also wanted to keep in shape for the kids In this movie with a shirtless scene. He is. Look, I have I would love to have Travolta's bod in this movie. I am not shaming his bod in this movie. Leading with his bod in this movie is an odd choice. Yes, it's also presented as I did the tough work and trained for three years for basic. I don't know how to comment on it because I can't, I wish I looked like him in this movie.

Yes, you always say look like him in this movie. He looks totally fine. But he's a few degrees off from like how he thinks he's coming across to Connie Nielsen. Like when he's like laying on the table and spreading himself out, like it feels like he's like, this is me and staying alive when it's, you know. There is a swagger to this performance that, yes,

suggests it's him and staying alive, essentially wearing a loincloth. When I'm like, Travolta, you look fine. You do not look like some kind of like masculine apex, which is how the character carries himself, but maybe that's good. That's how I keep coming around on Travolta, where I'm like, maybe the self-inflation just works.

Like, that's what's good about Travolta. It's the same with Swordfish, where he gives these 10-minute monologues where you're like, you have said zero thoughts during this entire monologue, but I guess that's what your character is? I think he's fun in Swordfish. I think in a movie like this. No, he's not.

Throwing fucking chili beans at me? The great thing about Swordfish is that at the end of it, he's cruising around the world on a speedboat with Halle Berry blowing up terrorists with just his slush money, and he's just never gonna get credit for it. The world's quintieth soul patch. His facial hair in that movie is illegal.

No, but he did that to look like another terrorist whose body he found to fake his death? It's not clear if he found the guy's body or made a fake body. Or he styled the body to look like how he wants to look? Correct, it's not never made clear. Sure. Hugh Jackman just stumbled across a fake Travolta body

and is like, hmm, weird. Wonder what that's about, anyway. Twist movies, man. Can we throw in another counterpoint? I just think in Swordfish you're just just like the fact that you're an idiot Works for this. I don't I don't know if you know that but I still am okay I think it doesn't work for this reason. I think in a movie that is this based on twists. I'm sitting there thinking is John Travolta so wildly failing to convince me of what this character actually

John Travolta so wildly failing to convince me of what this character actually is supposed to be in this movie or should I not believe Anything this guy is saying because clearly this is all a red herring misnomer his whole persona is deflect because right because well if he behaves this movie is Stupid but it actually works. I think if he's a guy who murdered someone who's getting away with it and he's cocky, he feels like somebody in a Clumbo episode who's like thinks they're gonna get away with it. He's Shatner. But, And he's got Shatnerian energy.

What you reveal at the end is like he's the general of Section 8. So he's a guy who's doing like 400 levels of deception and he's not behaving like a guy who is doing that. Thank you. There's nothing canny about this. Okay, okay. If we want, okay.

You wanna engage with the logic of this movie. I do! So let's assume from minute one Travolta is the head of Section 8. What does he want? He wants to get these guys out of here as quickly as possible? So it opens up and he's taking a shower because he's showering off the jungle from the thing he did that we're never very clear on.

He was somehow involved in this exercise. But they basically realize that the wing. Showering off the jungle is a really good explanation of the kind of logic this movie operates on. Well, the wings guy, they suspect him. This is an episode of The Daily Show. So they suspect him of being, that they need to prove that he's behind this drug thing

to take him down. So they do the most elaborate thing anyone has ever done to do it. Rather than just being like, hey, we hear this guy shipping coke through the military. Maybe we should just check his shipments. Instead, they're like, let's stage a fake military exercise gone wrong.

Sam Jackson fakes his death as an attempt to solve this. I got to say now, like, four hours in this podcast, I'm here because McTiernan's in my top five directors of all time, and I like this movie. And I just want to feel like I hours in this podcast, I'm here because McTiernan's in my top five directors of all time and I like this movie, and I just wanna feel like I've been hating on it a lot, but we gotta talk about how little sense it makes. We just gotta.

We have to engage with the fact that the stated premise of this film is that Samuel L. Jackson is a well-known decades in the, you know, he's been doing this for a long time, drill sergeant, who dies or disappears if they training incident He's so mean that everyone who's he's the notorious But we don't know if that's true or not because it's all a lie like everything they're saying to Connie They present as an early army style. He breaks these kids underneath

Trained under him when I was 15 years ago and never gotten over it What age are you supposed to be right now John? But 15 years into the military age 40 like what is this? But Sam's vibe in the last scene of the movie is so contradictory. That's not a guy who traumatizes No, he's a fucking maximum Corona ass chiller who hangs out on the fucking French quarter, but he's sitting around The argument for them switching roles. But he's sitting around a table with these people. That's what I'm saying, it's like,

if Sam Jackson in that last scene brought that energy to the Travolta character and was that lead, and then Travolta was hamming it up as this racist drill sergeant, and then at the end, they're kind of charming each other, that inversion... That might be more sense. You want the sort of, right, you want the Travolta character

to have the sort of chaotic energy of like, I can't get a read on this fucking guy. Which he sort of does. Well, but you guys are describing the performance in a way of like, he's unhinged and big, and it's kind of fun because you can't figure out. And I'm like, he's splayed out atop a table, like fucking Michelle Pfeiffer and Fabulous Baker Boys doing jazz hands and being like I bet you wanna fuck me

It's the same with him in Take taking a problem on 23 take the remake the Tony Scott remake of that movie Yes, where the Robert Shaw character that he's ostensibly, you know playing right like in this remit in the original movie right is like Cold as ice barely speaks like kills people without a twitch right and Travolta is like Just like completely over the top kind of fun in that movie I agree that's he's flooding the zone with bullshit and you're like I can't tell what's a choice and what's just idiot But for this script that does I mean like like, of the attempted failed third wave travel to come back, right? Which is the sort of late 2000s, Hairspray and Wild Hogs hit hard in the same year.

And everyone's like, is he back again? And then he like triples down into the scumbag thing. Savages and Pelham 123 were the two where people were like, he's kind of fun, he's kind of bringing some energy. Okay, so Tony Scott is the king of making movies that I spent several years being like, I love all of his movies except for these two, and then I watched those two again,

I'm like, they're so fucking good. So I watched Pelham 123 where they played it, New Bev is this Denzel marathon, and when it started and they started playing the 99 problems, I turned to my friend, I was like, this is like the only Tony movie, I don't really want to... I don't like this movie. And by the end, I'm like,

you know what, actually, Travolta's very good. He says motherfucker too many times. But he's playing... He's funny, salvager. But he's playing a cokehead Wall Street guy whose life gets taken away from him and is really angry. So like, it completely tracks narratively that that is who that guy is.

There's a center to it. Yeah, but this guy is like, it's like there's scenes, like before this movie started, Brian Van Holt and Travolta like sat in a room and like rehearsed this. Like, so when I'm sitting on the table, you're gonna ask me this. And the first time you tell you the story,

but I'm gonna do this. So like, she's like this. So I'm gonna try to be like, trying to see if she's good at it because we might hire her later. And then we're gonna do this. I'm back to engaging with the logic of the movie. Is it Travolta's good at it, because we might hire her later, and then we're gonna do this. And back to engaging in the logic of the movie. Is it Travolta's character is like,

okay, we have done our live, we're gonna rumble Tim Daly. So we're gonna do it by having a bit of back and forth with Robice, who I don't like, and Brian Van Holt, who's on my team. Who I love. Connie Ilyson is irrelevant, but she has to be there, so we have to perform for her.

And this will end with us busting Tim Daly, and then we'll get the fuck out of here. And then Connie Nielsen is so interesting, pinning that, like to him, that he suddenly is like, let's also write, like kind of throw some shit at her and see how she responds, because she could be getting the eight ball if we like it, right? Is that the plot of this movie? Yes, but Giovanni Robisi, what did he witness in the woods in the jungle or whatever? He was... No, but think about it. He was contracted to kill them by Tim Daley because Tim Daley knew that they were on his

tail, right? Yes, so which one of his stories is true where he found like Jackson dead or who why did he think Jackson died? Like I want to know what he thought happened. They kill him off so I don't have to deal with that logic. But it's like, Robisi, what does he before he dies, what does he really think happened out in the jungle? Like who did he think Jackson was really dead?

Did he see someone kill him? Who did he see kill him? Because he never tells his true story. No, he doesn't. It's all made up, right? Every story he tells is made up. But he had to have died thinking that Sam Jackson was dead. See, this whole conversation... This whole episode to me feels like the Professor Professorson episode of Community,

where the joke is twists that start to stack up in a way where... He's written too many twists and he's like, I've lost control of the narrative. You guys are leading it in a different way. Why did you do this in front of anyone if what you actually were doing was this? But if Sam Jackson- You're trying to trick people into thinking you were tricking them?

If it's a story where Sam Jackson is dead and you just don't know that Travolta was part of it, you can kind of stack these things up enough. But if you need the ending to be that Sam Jackson's not dead, the level of complicated it needs to be for all of these things, it's just like... I point you back to my incredible letterbox review, now up to 25 likes. Basic, more like complicated. Wow, your computer is smoking right now from the amount of action that review is getting.

And by the time it comes out, this podcast comes out, you'll have 26. 112 likes, I just refreshed. Good job, buddy. It's a good gag. Thank you. David? Yeah? Where else?

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Burrow dot com slash check. Do it. Now, Connie Nielsen, I'm just gonna say it. Yeah. She's terrible in this movie. She is really poor. Uh... Fuck.

Fuck, let me look. Um, let me see how many... Um... Connie Nielsen... is playing this role with... a relatively thick Danish accent. Yeah. I can understand everything she's saying.

And at this point in her career, she has been able to successfully drop the accent for entire films. What's going on there? They're trying to do the opening narration of To Kill a Mockingbird. That was the entire concept he had behind how she sounded, which is why the opening thing is what it is.

Uh-huh. But in an ADR is why the opening thing is what it is. But in an ADR booth, she can kind of pull it off, but it's one of those weird things about accents, which don't usually bother me, but it's like if you're performing and you're trying to focus on your accent and focus on give the best performance in the scene, it's like you're trying to juggle too many plates sometimes.

And she's trying to like hold her weight against this guy who's going at 11 all the time. And she's trying to show that she's the kind of person who can see through his bullshit and she's trying to sell the accent. And I think something's gotta give at that point. She makes no sense in this movie. Obviously she's supposed to be kind of a Demi Moore

in A Few Good Men, right? It's sort of like, yeah, I'm, you know, here to essentially be along for the ride, but I start to figure things out. But it's bizarre casting. She just doesn't work. So, here, it essentially would be along for the ride, but I start to figure things out. But it's bizarre casting. She just doesn't work. Connie Nielsen has such a bizarre career.

I wanna go off on this for a second. Demon Lover is awesome. She is a person where you're like on paper, so is she incredible? And I think at times she's been very good, but you basically go, her first American film is The Devil's Advocate, right? Which she's doing what she's, you know,

told in that one. She's, she's, she's serving weird, scary. You're a trash lady. Right. And then you're like one great scene in Rushmore. Yeah. Soldier permanent midnight mission to Mars gladiator. Like suddenly you're like, within three years she's in gladiator and she's the female lead of gladiator. She's very good in it. She's good in gladiator, but I do think things like mission to Mars this yes some extent she she's being handed the most boring role and it's like you're a lady with short hair who's one of the boys you're kind of steely and mature right

you're sort of the cheaper Rene Russo without the comedy I don't want to jump too far ahead but the ice harvest is fucking awesome Love ice harvest Love ice harvest The hunted I love the hunted You look at the resume and you disregard which films they are and you're like Brian DePalma Ridley Scott Right Assayas

Wes Anderson Wes Anderson Fucking Friedkin And number one, king of the DGA, Taylor Hackford. Taylor Hackford, Ramus. But I think this actually goes down to like the macro of the movie, which is that McTiernan needed a movie coming out of roller ball, and he did an unbelievable job

executing this movie, but it's a movie that was kind of broken, and he made it a little bit more broken by trying to solve problems he created. And this is not a movie where it's like, okay, well, we got the number one person that is exactly right for this character in every part. I think you sort of rely on the fact that he's had a lot of movies

where they had to reshape the script and kind of get people you weren't expecting and make it all work. But this is a movie that needs to be way more precise because of how much deception is in the thing. This is my big take on McTiernan now, as we're like finishing up this series. Not finishing up this episode, we have four hours left, but finishing up this series, right? Yes. Because he's one of the greatest what-the-fuck-happen cases in the history of Hollywood.

It becomes more dramatic in Shakespearean because of the crime and the downfall and everything. But you're also just like, how could a guy's instincts be that good and then get that wrong in a sort of general sense? I totally get this film strategically in his thought of his career as like, and this is why I was trying to dig into the timelines versus Rollerball David David is it makes sense if he's like I have once again caught myself in a 13th warrior situation. I need to sign up for another movie now. Yeah. That is more of a like stripped down adult thriller with movie stars to remind people that I know what I'm fucking doing and I'm not just like floundering in these hundred million dollar plus disasters.

But I do think McTiernan also just has the energy of like, I can make this work. That's the other problem. But he's made things work that should have been horrible. But this is my take. Yeah. My take is, if you're that guy, and Nomads, let's just put that to the side, right? I know you like it a lot more than we do.

But the run of Die Hard October where you're like you read about the making of these movies and all the things that shouldn't have worked and just he's like Next-level fucking chess skills in real time last minute cast changes last minute location changes Whatever right that shit yeah, and the studio is being like we don't know, we don't know. And he just fucking is so correct that if you're a guy like that, and like three times in a row you come out so triumphant, you start to go, well, anytime anyone doubts me, they're wrong. I know the way a John McTiernan movie works. I have to push through on my instincts.

But I also think he's like, we can't kill Samuel L. Jackson. That wouldn't make sense for that actor. And say I'm James Vanderbilt. I'm like, well's like, we can't kill Samuel L. Jackson, that wouldn't make sense for that actor. And I'm, say I'm James Vanderbilt, and I'm like, well then maybe we shouldn't cast Samuel L. Jackson, and he's like, that's the hand we've been dealt, we're just gonna fix it. I can fix things. But I also think we're talking about instincts here, right?

The way he puts it in the dossier is like, I loved the first half of the script, second half didn't make sense for what we had, so I tried to make the second half like the first half. When he says that, I'm like, I understand that on paper as a concept. It doesn't really work for this movie. I can fix things is once again, I'm John McTiernan.

When I'm backed into a corner with a gun to my head, I somehow deliver a masterpiece. Yeah. Okay, I think that two things are true at the same time, which is I think that McTiernan for me, he's like my top five guys. I think he's the best American action director. I think he two things are true at the same time, which is I think that McTiernan for me, he's like my top five guys, I think he's the best American action director. I think he's made several movies

that no one else in the world could have made work like. Predator is a miracle. Like Die Hard is a miracle. Hunter Frederick Tober is a miracle. And to be one of the best guys to ever do it and to be one of the only guys who could ever make that work doesn't mean you're always the right guy for a movie. It doesn't also mean that every movie is malleable. I think that's one of the only guys who could ever make that work doesn't mean you're always the right guy for a movie. It doesn't also mean that every movie is malleable.

I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that happens with movies is you can think that everything is malleable. It's like, I wanna have a ham sandwich, but what if I turn it into roast beef? And like, if you've done that before, you think that can be done, but it can't always be done. This sounds like a completely stupid analogy,

but it's like, Die Hard 3 should not work because they took 45 pages of another script that is 98% that and then have a whole new movie on the end, and it mostly works until the last two minutes. I think that it's basically a perfect movie until the last 90 seconds. I agree. Now, if you've come out of that situation alive,

you go, well, great, I know how to do stuff. Like, you feel doubt Disappearing in his system in real time where he's not like this Does not have doubt, but he's looking at something like this, and he's like yes I understand what you're flagging to me as a thing I should maybe be worried about would worry most people but I'm John McTiernan and I make shit work and Like you bring up the Travolta thing where you're like, maybe this isn't the right star.

Or maybe if you hire Sam Jackson to play this guy, it's going to unbalance the movie. You could imagine his response being, that's what they would have said about me having fucking Sean Connery play the Russian in Hunt for Red October. Something on paper where you're like, why are you casting a bigger star in the Jack Ryan movie? Who is notably a very different? like It has a very very different cultural history than the culture This whole movie is based around sure like all of that shit

Yeah, and he's like I fucking will this shit into happening, but hun fred october to medicine man to me is the whole thing It's like how do you like he owns only made two movies that I like don't like and it's rollerball medicine man and Medicine man for me is just fundamentally like I've seen a million worse movies But I think it's just a fundamentally broken movie like I'm like there's gonna be people listening to so like fuck you that's my favorite movie I medicine man for me just feels like, it feels just so miscalibrated on every possible level. And that doesn't mean he's not a genius.

But the travesty for me is just like, I don't understand why, besides the legal stuff, which is so annoying and stupid, and Karl Rove's fault, obviously, is that, like, I was watching the commentary of this. So it's basically like on mute. And when I have basic playing, I'm like this on mute is better executed than 99.9% of the movies from the last few years.

So I don't understand why it's like, well, what if someone just gave him a movie of a script that worked and let him cook? Like what is going on here? Like why do we hire people who are not even sure if it can do the job, who don't have a visual sense, who have no track record because he made Rollerball? It's like, I just don't, it's like, it's frustrating to me that he doesn't have way more times at bat

because like everybody misses, like. I agree 100%, but all like the stuff that JJ dug up for rollerball was so astounding and that all of the worst creative decisions in that movie started with him there were a thousand it's true like production nightmares and things he could not have anticipated and things that got away from him but you read about what he inherited in the script when he came on the project and what his first five notes were.

And you're like, those are the five quickest fundamental problems with this movie. And he just has this attitude. And you drop something right before we started recording, which I didn't know, which was that Keanu was supposed to do roller ball. And his sort of characterization for the type of guy he wanted in the lead role of that movie certainly makes a lot more sense if it's played by Keanu than it is played by Chris Klein. I'm not saying it would 100% work, but it's already him creating weird challenges for himself and being like, I'm just trust me. I got this.

I think he falls victim to that, I got this syndrome a little bit. I also think he gets destroyed by an industry that has that syndrome. Yes. By being like, now I would hire McTernan today. Yes. Possibly, right?

Like for some mid budgety kind of like. If you had a metal sector at the door, yeah. But now Hollywood's like, no, no, no, no, right? Like for some mid-budgety kind of like fun thriller. If you had a metal detector at the door, yeah. But now Hollywood's like, no, no, no, no, no, we're going to get this idiot. It's like, well, that person's not even that good. And they're like, yeah, but it works. We can control it. It's the same syndrome as playing out. And what happens now, you now have movies that get shot basically two and a half times in total because the first director they hired doesn't know how to make the movie. They've hired them to make or they didn't give them the freedom to do it

and they're like, just keep throwing shit at it. It's like the weirdest thing for me, which is just that I think that if you look at like the last 10 years and you look at like big expensive American tent poles, like the only two movies that I think are better directed than last action hero are like Fury Road and West Side Story. Like I think in terms of the actual crap, like Last Action Hero,

I don't even care if you don't like it. The filmmaking in that movie, like the big gun sequence, like the way that he uses like zoom lenses while shooting action on the go, like panning from a car zooming into another one, like the way that he executes it is God level in a movie that everyone is so fixated on all this other shit. I put Fallout on that list and otherwise I basically agree with you that those are... Yes, Fallout is like way, way up there.

Do you see Tarantino saying West Head Stories is basically the best film of the 21st century? I have zero strikes against Steven Spielberg's craft in that movie. It's just to me it's like... I did see that, David. I hope you feel really good. I feel good. I feel good. And big did see that, David. I hope you feel really good. And big and special. I do. I feel real special.

Like, there's like a scene when Travolta shows up to like scratch his balls, and like a camera goes around Connie Nielsen, and it swoops around him and like past Tim Daly, and I'm sitting there being like, no one is doing this shit. And you're going around the guy from Wings to see Travolta scratch his balls, and it's so fucking beautifully executed. Tim Daly's not just from Wings.

He was on Private Practice. He's from a lot of things. Was that Show Eyes? I was a big Wings guy, so my brain keeps just saying Wings. No, I think he is forever the guy from Wings. We do our bits on this show about when Danny Houston or Stellan Sarsgaard get cast in something,

and you go like, huh I wonder who the bad guys gonna be thinks Sam Daley in basic has the opposite problem where you're like this guy is so I don't know that this Serving criminal mastermind. It's Gary's and nice and snake eyes. It's like why is this guy in this except exactly? Oh, that's the thing. He's not successfully playing criminal mastermind, but you're also like That's the thing. He's not successfully playing criminal mastermind, but you're also like They wouldn't spend energy on this character and hire this guy if he wasn't supposed to actually be secretly More than we think he's supposed to be it's it's so true the same with he's so bland and straightforward that he has to secretly Be evil much less important, but when they go to the hospital and Harry Connick jr. Is there is I was just like oh

He's bad. This weird... Dude, when they let him sing. When they let him sing. He does the same bit two times of just being like, who's the most non-threatening guy that your mom likes? This guy's gonna be so fucking twisted. He's gonna be a huge scumbag.

Oh man, poor Harry Connick Jr. Already by 2003. It's like, do you wanna meet a 14th guy in basic? Scooby-dooby. But dude, when already by 2003. It's like, do you want to meet a 14th guy in Basic? Spoooby-doo-bee. But dude, when he is the guy who's like, well, good thing I'm going with Dunbar to the thing or whatever, it's like, if he didn't say that, the movie doesn't work.

Like, that's... Yes, yes, yes. Cockroach screenplay. Yeah. Everything tight. I think we're getting something here. Like, the movies, the McTiernan movies that feel airtight do not seem to have had airtight precision swish watch screenplays. They seem to have

usually unfinished organically developed like the thing this guy was incredible at was juggling 80 balls at the same time and suddenly somehow keeping his eye on them but a lot of that is vaguely improvisational. Here's a guy who works, seems to flourish under a certain sense of chaos or pressure or like serving multiple masters and egos. You kind of get someone handing him a script like this and being like, it has to be exactly like this. And he's like, I'm gonna wake up

and do whatever the fuck I feel like I'm John McTighe. No, we're not gonna do that, we'll do this. And also good luck re raining Travolta in. He's doing whatever he wants to do. I have to mention, I have a... The weird thing is, like, my director friends who are like people I know who like make movies and we share our stuff,

we are all like huge McTiernan guys. It's weird, like my screenwriter friends all grew up on Stephen King. And my director friends are all like obsessed with McTiernan. And a director friend of mine Jacob Gentry had like gone down the rabbit hole on some of this stuff and started sending me things when I said I was doing this and His theory is something I agree after watching every interview that he's ever done is Part of McTiernan not being as big as he doesn't self Mythologize

in the way that everybody else does. It's like all of his peers, whenever they're on the mic, they're like, I am the greatest thing that has ever lived. I've saved everything. You cannot make any movie without me. I am God. And he's sort of like, you know,

we were just in this thing and I kind of figured it out. And maybe I didn't. And in retirement, in his sort of forced retirement, he keeps doing retrospective interviews and commentaries. He's not hiding, and his commentaries are really informative, but he's just kind of like, this was the job I was hired to do, and here's how I did it, and here's my honest assessment of what I think I got right

and what I got wrong. Do you guys watch the new 13th Warrior documentary? Like, there's an hour long one on YouTube that's from a few years ago, and at the end of it, he's like, look, there's a director's cut out there, but it may not be better, so I hope no one sees it. And you're just like, whoa. I think we did discuss that.

Right. I've watched it since. He's not David Ayer being like, man, no, no, no. There's an amazing Suicide Squad if you just let me release it. His last action hero commentary is incredible for this reason. But like, Fury Road is impressive

because despite the way that like Charlize Theron and Tom Hardy talk about it, they also acknowledge we were not understanding what he had in his head, but it was figured out so perfectly. There was such a clear game plan that he was not able to really communicate, but somehow he got the pieces out of everybody. McTiernan's present day analog is Macquarie because it is the same thing of like I want you to throw me out of an airplane Force me to like sew the parachute in real time if he was a writer I think that he could solve his own problem is really the issue and he's a bad writer I mean, I'm not one to say that but okay well, but it's not his inherent strength

They have but they do have I think they're a similar comp in terms of what they do. That's the thing about McCrory It's like he could be in movie jail and be like, alright Well, I'm just gonna rewrite the shit out of so many Tom Cruise movies that I'm indispensable Yeah, like that even if he had a falling out with Cruz he could do the same for anyone else like McCrory's never gonna actually totally be in Siberia. And when he talks about his Siberia period, for 10 years, it was doing that. It was getting paid a lot of money

to rewrite shit with no credit. And basically, like you say, become invaluable is like, well, this guy knows how to fix a movie. Can we, okay, look. The plot of basic, I know, we don't really need to do this. The problem, I love when we do, on these episodes and you guys go through everything in order, but the problem, the middle section,

the middle section is kind of impossible to do. Look, there's the live fire exercise that goes wrong. Brian Van Holt's in one room. He shot someone. Annie Robici's in the hospital. Brian Van Holt was like one room. He shot someone. G.I.R. only Robes in the hospital. Brian van Holt was like carrying him. Yes. Everyone else is gone. We don't know where they went. That includes Taye digs. Where'd he go? Dash Mihawk. Definitely not going to play like a weird racist, right? That dash Mihawk played so many like Lunkhead, like

idiots, like in movies around this time. He's a good actor. I like that. Good actor. But yes, he got a, it's. Got really button-holed. Yes. Christian de la Fuente and Rosalind Sanchez, these guys are all gone and Samuel Jackson is gone. What happened to them? John Travolta, who is not in the military anymore, is now a quote unquote D.A. agent.

But this is like a term. But he's friends with the guy from Wings. He only wants to speak to ex-military. Correct. So just to say the script takes place in Louisiana and he was just a cop, but otherwise everything is the same so far. Okay. He is brought in by the guy from Wings, Tim Daly himself.

The most normal man. Eyes on ABC, it was about four episodes before it got canceled. I watched every single one. So it's an episode of The Daily Show. Yes it is. A once every five years version of Blank Check where we check is an episode of The Daily Show. Um, yes it is. A once every five years version of Blank Check where we check in on one of The Daily Show. Incredible performance in that one episode of The Sopranos.

Tyne dropped out of proof, or not proof, of doubt because she was having health problems and apparently she's stable, it's a bummer, she's not back on Broadway. Oh yeah, I know because like, what Tyne Daily definitely needs is more awards. She has too many awards. Well also you love...

Doubt, I love doubt. I have no doubt about my love for doubt. No, I don't need more doubt. So basically the plot of the middle, most of this movie is Travolta goes to Brian Van Holt. Brian Van Holt's like, here's what happened. Travolta's take is, great, round him up. Like, let's arrest this guy.

I'm done. Then he goes to see Ruvis. Ruvis is like, that's not what happened. A completely different thing happened. Yes. Every story they are being told relies on total conjecture. Yes. Like, suggestions of some sort of like group conspiracy.

Like, let's get these guys by banding together. Like, there are no bodies there's no evidence every revolt is the worst cop in the world he's always just like oh he said Brian Van Holt did it you should arrest him every account he's hearing is a different person saying here's what I think I saw and it's literally here's what I think I saw and I think that guy didn't like that guy why I don't know because he's gay because he's racist why I don't know because my gay because he's racist like I don't know who's

Accounting to believe because they're they're all in conflict with each other It's like every account is also based on wild swings like one is Samuel Jackson got blown up by a grenade Another is like Samuel Jackson like jumped on the roof and shot us with pistols going like fuck you bitch. Like they are completely, it's not like Rashomon where it's like we know this guy got shot and let's figure this out. It's completely different things every time. But it's like usual suspects if Chas Palminteri was Kaiser Soze and he was interviewing three different people who keep contradicting each other going from room to room. Usual suspects was also like combined with Reservoir Dogs where the inciting, like

the crime that's being dissected was mostly in one warehouse. And also... Because every time they cut back to a different account, you're like, it's all still in the same hut. And also if Jazz Palminteri at the end of every story that he was told was like, fine, arrest this guy. And there was a lady next to him was like, don't you want to like ask more questions? Something about this doesn't make sense

But what if what if no one said don't arrest that guy and then he's like well fuck I've made all this up What am I supposed to do now? There are scenes that Don't make sense yes such as Giovanni Robisi in giving an A-tier terrible performance, just like all business, no character. Putting the lotion in the basket. Yes. After they go to interrogate him for like the 14th time, where they're like,

can you clear some stuff up for us, tell us a new story for example. Yeah, I'll tell my dad all we said. Throws up eight buckets of blood and then draws an eight on a piece of paper in blood and dies. Draws an eight on her hand. On her hand, that's right. In his vomit blood. Right.

After, I am not exaggerating here, doing full like drag me to hell vomiting. Yes. Like the most absurd, Raimi-esque, there is no way that comes out of this person's body. Let alone spontaneously. Why would he know about Section 8? I don't know. Okay, great, great. You don't have an answer.

I agree. I'm not even mad. I'm just genuinely wondering. Then there's another sequence where Travolta holds Brian Van Holt near an airplane propeller that is spinning and yells at him, but we can't hear what he's saying. I assume at that point, some instructions are being delivered, right? Presumably. They're going like, anyway, we almost got it.

You're totally selling this. You know that bar in New Orleans? Let's go there. But we never revisit that. No. No. Okay, great. I'm just trying to make sure I didn't miss anything But this is why I bring up the professor professor for the I mean I just finally finished my 30 rock rewatch right?

I see you're gonna do community. Yeah, I know I did community during the pandemic. I don't know what the next one is but There's the episodes where Baldwin is feuding with Chloe grace Moretz Are similar to basic where there's this who's zooming who you think you're watching one person getting the upper hand but it's actually the whole time that's what they wanted whatever and there's one where they think they've defeated Baldwin and then he goes like that's one way it could have played out and then he reviews every scene and shows that actually he was on top of it and then there's part of it is he slips two pieces of paper

and makes Will Arnett send the wrong one. And Will Arnett says like, why did you make me send it? That's just unnecessary. That's just mean. So you're saying that's what BASIC is doing over and over again? Right, where they're like,

why would you have to do that in front of that person? Why would you even need to sell that part of it? That's unimportant. That's just mean to Connie Nielsen I need everyone to know that I just went down the most insane rabbit hole ever and I'm gonna do it in 20 seconds Is that I was trying to remember so dash mehawk when I first moved to LA in like 2005 I knew him because I went to a friends and family screening of this movie called loveless in Los Angeles Which is like a very underseen movie with him and Brittany Daniel

Where the guy came out and he introduced it by saying, you know, I've been an editor on like Blind Date and Fifth Wheel and all these things, and I really come to LA to direct a movie, so I decided, fuck it, I gotta do it. So we made a movie about a guy who was like an editor on like Blind Date and like Fifth Wheel, who decided to make a movie. Especially when they're set in Los Angeles.

Well, I remember watching just being like, but this is a movie about you, the fact that you should have made a movie. And I was like, what happened to that guy? And I found out that like he is now the executive producer on every like Mark Wahlberg reality show. Oh, Jesus Christ. Like Wall Street. Yeah, he's the showrunner of Wahlbergers.

Yeah, so I'm like. He's an Emmy nominee. I hadn't looked up the thought of this guy in 20 years. And I was like, the Dash Mihawk guy made good. He is now the Mark Wahlberg producer for all of his reality shows. Yeah, he worked on Wall Street. That's a pretty good encapsulation of the way the film industry tends to shake it out.

But it's like for me, Dash Mihawk was always like the surrogate of the blind date fifth wheel guy in the fake Annie Hall movie. He is, I mean, I love him in Romeo and Juliet. He's good in Thin Red Line and stuff, but he's a type. Kiss, Kiss, Bang, bang, bang. He has a very good 30 seconds.

I am a legend where he is CGI'd over, but is the main vampire. He sure is. Really? He's very committed in that movie. He was the physical, I mean, he was doing it all with practical and then he still is the guy, yeah. Anyway, all of this is irrelevant.

John Travolta catches Tim Daly in a lie. Like John Travolta goes to see Tim Daly. He's like, anyway, I wrapped it up. No, you didn't. And it's like, yeah, so you know, I mean, it was probably about like this drug thing. And Tim Daly is like, anyone doing a drug thing with a poison G found in your BC. Like, and you're like, great. Now we just fucking caught him. Like, you know, like, great, he just admitted to it. And so Travolta is like, okay, you know, they're doing this cutesy caddy back and forth. And before Tim Daley shoots Travolta, Connie Nielsen shoots Tim Daley.

Yeah. I guess the mental game he's been running, is that like the intention of all this cave? It's like, I'm going to make her shoot him? When I was watching that scene on mute, when I was listening to commentary, it was so good. Yeah. What is said in the commentary?

No, I'm saying like, I'm just saying the thing about the commentary I realized because he doesn't talk a lot in it, is like, I just wasn't hearing the movie. And I was like, on mute, this movie is fucking awesome. Sure. Like that scene, I'm like, this is like film noir, and it's like this thunder and lightning.

And then when she's revealed behind the glass, it's a lot like when original Bill Johnson, like it's the same camera move as when he shoots the guy at the end of Die Hard. And I was like, this feels like the best movie. But what's happening in the movie is like Travolta just keeps kind of laughing a little bit too long while he's like telling him the thing,

and then they both start laughing. And then it turns and he's like, what if I give you all the money and he's like, oh, so you did do it. And then... Even just the rain is such a McTiernan thing where you're like, who else would choose to make it that much more complicated for themselves in the name of an overriding atmosphere to the movie. I guess I'm supposed to believe that he's like, if Nielsen shoots Tim Daley because Tim Daley drew a gun,

this is open and shut and I can just be vapor in the wind, right, I can just like, no one ever knew I was here, right? But do you think that he thinks Nielsen's gonna shoot Tim Daley? No, because that would be insane to think that. But maybe he does. We're getting into like the salt burn thing of like how much of it was intentional or how much wasn't

or were you improvising as you went along. It's unfortunate now, I'm never gonna see a movie again as long as I live that doesn't have a series of flashbacks to what actually happened and not think of the money in the wallet from Saltburn. It's like even now when I'm watching this, and this is a movie, I always love this, I don't care if it's Sixth Sense., that's the best version. Yeah, it's like I love being like, oh that actually happened

Oh my god. Oh my god. This is I love editing This is my whole shot my whole fucking problem with salt burn and that I keep talking around is just like that Did you know that he actually put a hole in the tire and that's why he did it that it shows you this scenes as If you're gonna be fucking shocked And that's why he did it that it shows you this scenes as if you're gonna be fucking shocked We were like Barry Kugin was not on the level in this movie, and I'm not patting myself on the back going I was ahead of the twist. I'm going I didn't think that was supposed to be a twist if that was not Telegraphed then what the fuck if I've been watching what if salt burn had the incredible twist of like now This is actually a good nice guy and these are a bunch of weird

Saltburn had the incredible twist of like now this is actually a good nice guy and these were a bunch of weird So in the first murder Structured as if the reveal is every time Barry Keoghan did something creepy He then immediately left a room and a random person broken and killed somebody I had like an in real-time nervous breakdown OJ thing Should be if I did it He's like when the first murder happened in Salt Saltburn and they didn't show him do it, I turned to my girlfriend and said, uh, why didn't they show him kill him? Like a beat passes and I go, oh my God, do they think it's a twist?

And then I like a beat passes and I'm like, oh no. I see. I feel like a moron. I actually was sitting there going, I'm going to give Emerald panel a little credit for not feeling the need to show me. I guess that is a weird flex of directorial restraint on her part. Every time they didn't show me a crime,

I was like, okay, she's holding back. So, so. I was astonished by the twist of that movie thinking it's a twist movie. That was the greatest twist I've seen. But the point I brought it up is not just to unnecessarily say something bad. Sorry for ruining Sauper for everyone fucking nine months after it comes out. I know and I'm just a gigantic hater. It's just that there's that thing where it's like, was everything planned or was it half planned?

Yes. And it's like the more you show the more questions I have, which is like, okay, so then why did they do that? Did they, what did they expect to happen at this point? Once you start saying this meant something, this meant have, which is like, okay, so then why did they do that? What did they expect to happen at this point? Once you start saying, this meant something, this meant something, this meant something, then I'm like, did it all or were they improvising some of it? Yes, because in the best versions of these types of movies, at the end when Travolta fucking lays out what was really going on the whole time, he's like, now, what I was

planning to do was to do this and then you shot him, which freaked me out, but then I realized this gives me an opportunity. No. The way in which Connie Nielsen shoots him also, the fact that she is on the other side of a closed door. She shoots him through a window, yeah, it's crazy. And he's like, why do you shoot him?

And she's like, I saw him like doing shit with his hands. But Thomas Crown has the magic version of this when they don't see how he took that other painting. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his.

I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his.

I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his.

I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. I'm gonna be a fan of his. in a very murky situation of you need to set up this or let him know at least this was this and I don't really even know what the right answer is. There's no fix that I know of. Until the last 10 minutes, I'm watching it going, the ultimate twist of this has to be that Connie Nielsen is, if not in on it, is running her own thing. That Connie Nielsen is not who she says she is and that she's actually the one who's quietly

been manipulating circumstances Because to do all of this basically just for her seems insane. Okay, so I Want to address what Ben just texted Griffin and I in one second? But first yes, the final twist of this film is yeah, they are all in section 8 Sam Jackson is alive Taye Diggs is here, you know, everyone's back They are an in section 8 Sam Jackson is alive. Taye Diggs is here. You know, everyone's back They are an elite bunch of undercover He's dead That didn't mean Robici and Mihawk didn't make it would have been incredible if Robici was there at the last

Showed up covered in his face. Yeah, he's got like the entry wk like the blood all down Uh, no full the game ending but that's about kilmer coming back and he's like hey guys Like he has a new voice James Rebhorn should be there at the end wearing a little party So yeah, they're they're an elite Anti-drug unit within the military. Yeah, they're actually the coolest best guys Travolta being like a somewhat corrupt DA agent is the total cover story for the fact that he's in fact like Colonel of Awesomeness they all hit the gym every day. And does Connie Nielsen want a job?

They also kind of need her, because they are pretty much all pretend dead at this point. So they're going to need, like, a living person. Do they fuck? Is that John Travolta and Connie? Five minutes after the movie is over, yes. The movie thinks yes, I think No, no, okay. No, absolutely because it's not clear. Here's what I think happens the moment after the movie ends

Okay, if the camera were to stay rolling for another five seconds I think the final line of the movie would be Connie Nielsen saying wait, you're gay, right? gay, right? Now just to be super clear. Now we never addressed my letterbox review of this movie. I'm talking about the characters in the film. Yep. It was a, we should also address. There's this signals happening here in like full arm traffic signals telling me to stop talking. What were you going to say? I forgot about the part where Brian Van Holt like says like he doesn't like baseball or whatever. There's a lot of like clever fun, you know, back and forth that is then kind of like sent

into the dimension of insanity by Travolta just like making every line reading bizarre. My letter box review was the early 2000s joy of Travolta being caddy for 105 minutes, which is how I feel about that performance. Yes. And I think caddy is the wrong choice for this character. But it's the choice he has made nonetheless. My letterbox review, which no one cares about, was me complaining about the end credits song, which drives me insane because it should have just been Bolero.

They start playing, is it Bolero? Is that what the piece of music is that from the opening scene yes yes they should just kept playing it that's the vibe he's aiming for. He loves a classical shirt. And instead they're like whoa bad cover blah blah blah Ben sent us his review. Okay let me just look at Ben's review here. So you haven't seen it? Working on my ranked list here no I'm just organizing my rank list. OK. I love the formality of Ben Hosley. My two-star review of Basic on Letterboxd, colon.

Link below. Click the link. There you go. Ben, do you want to read it out? I'd like for you to read it, please. You're finally capturing the magic of listening to this podcast at home. I'm like, what are you guys?

What's happening? I know, right? You're getting to see magic of listening to this podcast at home. I'm like, what do you guys what's happening? I know right? You're you're getting to see it in real time What is this long-ass episode of Jag? There you go find this film critic and then immediately comment underneath our finest film critic If Jag looked like a McTierney movie, I would watch all 10,000 episodes on repeat. Yeah I mean, this is the problem with McTierney's you watch something like this Which I clearly like a lot less than you guys and I'm still like we didn't know how good we had it But this is like a bad episode of Columbo directed by God like that is a great take

But it's God after he's become God like it's not what yeah, it's your bird Columbo where you're like, oh shit This guy's got the magic. It's it's veteran Yeah, for sure. Did you like Basic, Ben? Well, apparently you thought it was like a long episode of Jag. Yeah. His favorite thing in the world. He's always complaining that Jag episodes are too short. No, I didn't hate it,

but I just struggled to get through it, the little bit. That's sort of a sign of not liking it. I mean, it's right. It's not Joe Dirt. It's no Joe Dirt. It's better? It's more of a Joe Dirt 2. American Loser? Let's play. This was a Crackle original. It was.

Let's play the box office game before we do our McTernan rankings, Griffin. I just want to say, like, when we had Julie Klausner on for Star 80, a movie I like a lot more than she does, but a very difficult thorny movie, right? And her take as someone who loves Bob Fosse It's just like don't you just find it really? Disappointing that this is the last thing we ever got from this guy like isn't it such a horrible note to end on sure and I Do not think that basic is a noxious film in any way and and we've talked about like everything that happens after this movie But it's just such a bummer to be like this is his last film Oh, see I do and I do it harsher for that reason. I'm the opposite.

I've seen a lot of last movies, and this one is perfectly fine. It doesn't really work. It's like, there's way worse ones from people who I love. Imagine if Rollerball was the last one. Yes. We're doing okay. I agree. I'm not saying it's one of the worst last films ever.

If he made this film and then six months later had a heart Attack would be like what a tragic story and it sure that you're like 21 years later He's still alive and not making movies and his last thing is basic It's insane that his last movie is 2003. That's my real thing good or bad. It's insane that that's his last Yes, that is the part that depresses me. The bummer is Carpenters That this is his last guess that is the part that depresses me the bummer is Carpenter's Yeah, Carpenter's But if McTiernan was on record saying I'm high watching Lakers games and playing video games

I'd be like I don't need more man carpenter at least has the line of I can't be bothered I don't care enough anymore, and I'm like you know what actually if you're happy. That's more important to me Versus McTiernan you know is not happy. If McTiernan was stoned watching Lakers games and playing Dead Space, I'd be like, you know what, I can just keep watching Last Action Hero. I'm glad this guy figured it out. March 28th, 2003, there are three new films in the top five.

They are basically all making the same amount of money. This is a box office game where the movies are 13, 12, 12, 11 are the numbers. So it's just kind of like a classic beginning of the year box office of like a bunch of underperformers at the same time. Okay. Right? So the basic is opening at number four, which is not great.

I would say not great. To 11 million dollars. It's gonna leg that all the way out to 26, which is not good Big 42 worldwide on a 50 budget. Okay Ben David is cracking a white-claw Number one of the box office is new this week Griffin. It is a comedy Okay starring a major comedy star. Hmm. One of my guys Not really.

Not sure. He, you know, he was a huge deal. He wrote, directed, and stars. Oh, it's Head of State. Head of State! Yeah. I think the best Chris Rock directed movie. Yes. That's not a great...

It's not. Bernie Mac is so good. Bernie Mac is really good. Bernie Mac's awesome in it. There are a couple things that are great. Nate Dogg is great in it. Yes. Here's a story about a man. I'm Sharon Stone's cousin. Wanted to be head of state. I used to do this bit with my friends all the time. Nate Dogg narrates that film as an omniscient rapping narrator, a rapping a lot to the watcher if you will, and as an omniscient rapping narrator, a rapping a lot to the watcher, if you will, and every time they cut to him, it's a little like they're trying to do Jonathan Richmond and something about Mary, but it's just him going,

here's a story about a man, then he moved to Washington, trying to be the head of state, he'll be the head of state. When his rival keeps saying, and I'm Sharon Stone's cousin, that sums up so many big directors in Hollywood. This is true. That every time I think of that line, whenever I find out someone was Katie Couric's nephew or something, when I find out they're like, got a movie. I was a Das Mi Hook's body, man.

Number two, The Box Office. It's a comedy, it's a huge hit. It's in its fourth weekend. It's finally been dethroned. It's bringing down. It's a huge hit. It's in its fourth weekend. It's finally been dethroned By if and it's bring down the house. Yeah The house has been brought down the house has been brought down. It's made 100 million dollars. The government has intervened We must reconstruct the house Bring down the house bring it on the house Steve and Queen a movie Steve McQueen Bring it down the house. Bring it down the house?

Steve and Queen. A movie? Steve McQueen? Steven Queen. Steve, Martin, and Queen. Oh, Steven Queen. Steven Queen. Steven Queen.

I'd say Martin and Latifah is what I would say. Yeah, but I thought it'd be funny if I said, Steven Queen. Oh sure, yeah. Because no one has ever said that before. David, you're right, it's funny. And I give you 10 comedy points. Thanks.

Number three at the box office is new this week. It's a disaster film. Okay. It's opening to number three, so box office is new this week. It's a disaster film. Okay It's opening to number three. So it's not not great. It's not the core. Is it it sure is which Fucks all night not bad, right? One of those movies that came out people are like no and then just like ten years later people started being like well We all agree the core is good. Now. It's just like can you invite me to some of these meetings? I'll watch it now, but like you just gotta keep me updated

I talked about this in a past episode But I watched the core with someone I was dating who was like you've never seen the core and I was like what's this? Energy of you've never seen the core as if the core is cannon You like the core, but you just have to send me some memos if we're all now agreeing the core is good. So then she's like, we're staying home, we're watching the core tonight. We put on the core in 30 minutes and I'm like, who the fuck directed this? John Amiel, baby.

Truly, I was like, and he won best picture within two years of this movie. I think you can go back and watch any Delroy Lindo. Is it Delroy Lindo and Tucci are both in that? Yeah, it is. Tucci, Delroy Lindo, and Hilary it is. Any movie that Delroy was in from that era is good. Yeah, yeah, basically. Richard Jenkins, Bruce Greenwood, I mean these are names. Alfre Woodard. Number four is basic.

Basic. Number five is the best picture winner of the prior year. 2002 is Chicago. It's Chicago. Still just fucking Cap Dancin' all over the box office. 14 weeks in, it's made still just fucking tap dancing all over the box and it's made 144 million dollars so it still has like 30 left in the tank it's doing great that's number six is dreamcatcher normal movie good and normal film like that movie number seven is agent Cody Banks good and normal the

first one the first one okay number eight Piglet's big movie. I will say I don't remember that one in between Winnie and Tigger. No, no, no. Tigger was the first of the theatrical releases for the Disney Toon movies. Then it's Piglet's big movie and then it's Pooh's heffa lump movie. Right, right. Well, Piglet's big movie. Yeah. Number nine. The funny Post. It was his little tush. The poster was his little corkscrew tail. Just remembered all of that off the top of your head. Yeah. You never cease to fucking amaze me.

It's crazy. It's fucking crazy. I don't even know what to say about it. It's not on my screen. I wasn't looking at anything. I know. And it just, we just, every once in a while, because I've witnessed you do this hundreds and hundreds of times, but God damn, that is insane. We've had these conversations a while, because I've witnessed you do this hundreds and hundreds of times,

but goddamn, that is insane. We've had these conversations a lot, Ben David, and you and I both like to pull things out. Sometimes our listeners, when they get into the room and they watch me do it in real time and see it is not aided by any visuals. I just realized that our guest has a name that makes it sound like you're addressing Ben and I at the same time.

I can't believe it took us this long in the episode to figure that out. My goodness. Yeah, I earlier was going to make a joke about it, but it felt narcissistic. OK, it's quite all right. What if I establish a new bit here that any time I want to address Ben and David at the same time on the podcast, I say Grabinski. Absolutely. Please do.

All right, when I come back for Dragonfly and Shady Axe 1, we'll get that. You'll be back in 11 years. You'll be back in 11 years. You're fucking doing that. Number 10 at the box office is View From the Top directed by friend of the of a friend of the show Yes, father of a friend of the show. Yes Bruce Baretto is as ex-ex-husband of a previous guest of the show. No, it's not Bruce. What's his um, fuck?

What's um the I've never seen view from the top obviously? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no I know it was not a hit No, does it have a cult following at this point? I think a little feel like stylish when it's outro stewardess movie should have a cult following Yeah, like Mike Myers is in it. Yes. He has the one joke in the trailer of I keep putting The emphasis on the wrong sallow bowl that I will never forget, that I think about once a day. It lives there in my brain, Ben, right next to Piglet's tush on the teaser one sheet.

It's funny, that's a time in my life where I can do the box office game, and I remember 90% of the movies, and I saw everything, as we were talking about before the Polygous Every Brian Van Holt movie, but somehow Griffin, who was younger than me, is like, well, I remember exactly what trailer and like what the final tag of it was and what the order of these Disney releases were, and I'm like,

How old were you then? I was 14, but I was in full like John Nash mode staring at a wall, like just having numbers fly off of me. What will Travolta do? I mean, Travolta can do whatever he wants. McTiernan. Will we ever get him back? Obviously there have been various, you know, he always linked to this movie, but that's really more before the jail stuff. And look, we did, we did a patron episode. That's incredibly good and normal. It's kind of the dream catcher of Patreon episodes.

In which we get into all of that. But obviously post-Prison, you know, there's this supposedly, this movie called Red Squad. Yeah. That I think didn't end up getting made, like sort of a Red Boxy movie, that never came to fruition for him. I mean, there's a Wikipedia page

of 20 unmade John McTiernan projects, and half of them are post 2003 there were things he had on the runway He was trying to get off the ground hoping he would not end up in prison There are many things he's tried to set up post prison to a certain degree It's almost surprising that you don't realize. Oh shit that like weird Kellen Lutz Millennium films red box thriller was quietly directed by John McTierney. No, he never will. Here's the quote from McTierney to explain exactly this. I'm still being offered

action movies. Last week I received the story of an armed commando. There are still ready people ready to finance things by waving a $2 million payday in my face. I would really need it, but I always refuse. It's always the same story. Three guys arm themselves to the teeth and kill a slew of people in Columbia to save some poor guy's daughter. My country has never gotten over these pathological obsessions. Europe is much more civilized. I've continued to write and I believe I have strength and years left. I'm just as angry now as when I was 19. That was a quote from like three months ago. So he's like, I'm ready, but I don't want to do some bullshit movie.

So like five years ago, I saw him. I respect that, I will say. I saw him like five years ago. There's this thing that this guy that I used to do called, they did the six shooter series at AFI where six AFI filmmakers would come and introduce a movie that made them want to make movies, and you didn't know what you were going to see,

and it was like a marathon of six. And McTiernan was there for the last one, and he came out and introduced McCabe and Mrs. Miller. And he was so passionate about it, and it made me understand, after being obsessed with his movies my whole life, suddenly his style, which is, I do think there's a weird analog in comparison

between that era of Altman and what he's doing and how he was using like zooms and anamorphic zooms and all that stuff. And another guy who really like let movies develop organically in the process of making the movie, building things around the actors he had, the conditions, feelings, moods, yeah. And it just made me wish like at the least

he wasn't like out there just sort of being like a fun scholar like talking about things Introducing screenings, but the sad thing about the timeline to me is I didn't realize until recently is that when he went to prison Was so much later than basic and there was this long time where they weren't sure if he was going to and he couldn't get Movies made because people didn't know if he was gonna go Can we just sort of talk about this so he was like a jail before he was in jail I mean this is on this Wikipedia page There are a lot of these things and a lot of them were things that like he optioned with his own money

Right a big part of his complete fallout is like the Pelicano thing really starts building in 2006 three full years after this movie. He's not in a great place career-wise, but he's trying to get stuff made He is not actually sentenced to prison until 2013 Yeah, he only serves he served about months Yeah a little over a year, but I mean you say that he's not actually since print but like but the case yes Oh, it's continuous that he's in your yard and and then he's also going through a divorce that exact same period of time He experiences complete bankruptcy like dramatic bankruptcy a lot of which is obviously tied to his money being tied up in courts for six years, hiring lawyers.

He has... He's had three divorces. I think there's a lot of money going out. Yeah, but like everything is sort of collapsing in real time, and a lot of the projects that he had sort of put his own money into trying to develop on his own in the post basic pre prison era End up getting pulled away as part of liquidation Those rights all fall away from him and just full episode on this But like the cornerstone of the pelicano thing is that he is called

By the fbi they say we're building a case against anthony pelicano. Did you ever employ his services? He says no, I did not thank you for calling hangs up and Finds out they have a tape of him saying hey Anthony Pellicano I John McTiernan would like to hire you to tap the phones of Charles rovin the producer of roll-a-ball and Like sure I'm gonna do it illegal though And all the other Pellicano tapes are just sort of like and Anthony do whatever you feel like would be the right way to go About doing this thing that I'm speaking about very vaguely. They had him dead to rights. He circles back

He says to them. I'm sorry. I lied I would like to cooperate on this case and then hires a lawyer who says you never sort of said that right You should now plead innocent a withdrawal your guilty plea always great legal advice from that moment He's fucked and now he's been six years trying to double down on his innocence with the advice of a lawyer who seemingly Was John Travolta in basic? I mean I bring all this up here because like the boondoggle of how he ends up in prison Feels like it follows basic-esque logic of why would you make those decisions in that order? He unquestionably got screwed in a way where like,

I didn't even know until I originally read this story that if someone just calls you and asks you something, like you have to tell the truth. Yes. Like, I didn't even know until I found out about this story like a decade ago. I'm like, oh, so if someone just is like, hey, did you commit a crime?

And I say no, and they find out I did, then I'm in trouble. Like, what does a phone call mean? What are you talking about? You can be in trouble for lying to the FBI. Yes. Yeah but how do you even know it's the FBI like people like it could be a prank call. It could have been Bart Simpson. I think they said they were the FBI. Yeah but people say that. What does that mean? But it could be Bart Simpson. But it makes a good point it could be Bart Simpson. No but like he claims he's just like I don't even know who this guy was I'm just like never mind I hang up the phone. Yes I don't think they were not going to actually put him in jail for that it's that he then adopted a belligerent legal strategy that maybe was the wrong one

And they were like, okay, well, you're guilty of stuff So I get it because they were going after all these gigantic people and couldn't get shit And then he became like there at least we can take down this guy, right and I get why you'd be pissed about it I'm not here to support exactly how he handled it But I I just think like I can understand Losing your mind and being incredibly frustrated about all that and especially feeling like the whole thing is crumbling like it's not just that It's like my wife is leaving me. I'm coming off of multiple flops in a row my reputation's been dinged I'm losing my home like all this shit all right

But he is a bulletproof legacy that someone should do a podcast about talking about all of his movies in a row with one For each of them because he's made like I think only two really bad ones one That's just okay, and then a lot that are like ranging from good to perfect hold on a second Ben David take out Yes, your handgun. I'm gonna creek this door open creek. Oh here. We all are drinking Corona's on Bourbon Street It turns out all along. That's what's been happening We like guys I did three so I didn't know that there was gonna be any more of it I just walked into a room and there was microphones and Ben and I thought we're talking about Joe dirt three If only it could happen could happen. Do you have a pitch on that?

Don't make two. They made two. Beautiful loser. We can retcon two out of existence. Okay. Well, wait. Did we talk about the reveal of the, your like insight into roller ball? Did you get to?

The canner thing? Yeah, we did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's, that to me, again, I just, we didn't, the one thing I just want to say is like it's one of those Unbelievable like when something's like about that go and you're like we got to get somebody the fact that people in a room We're like, okay. Well can it's not gonna do it. Who can we get this like Keanu? No one is like Keanu that Chris Klein is not like Keanu

Like I get how someone who doesn't has black hair you see and they're like, oh like sir Is he dumb energy? But you can see the war studio thinking that gets to Chris Pine. If you're someone who doesn't understand why Keanu is great, maybe. But the idea that Alexander Payne was just in a high school one day and is like, that guy feels like this character, let's put him in front of a camera. And then years later, the director of Die Hard is like shooting him by going down San Francisco on a luge or whatever.

That through line is unreal. Yeah, but you're missing a huge middle step. He was great in American Pie. I think he's great in all those. I think he's very good in comedies. I don't think he's an action star. And if you ever go on YouTube, look up all of his lines in quick succession from Street Fighter.

We talked about that episode. Oh, boy from Street Fighter. We talked about that. Oh boy. Believe me. We talked about it. Ben David, you made a top 11. I was gonna say top 10. You ranked McTiernan's films. Yes.

You've been rewatching all of them. I rewatched all of them as like my four followers on Letterboxd would know. Hey, I'm one of them. So how do we wanna do this? Who's gonna go first? I'll go first. Oh here he comes I mean I it is it's just a weird case of just like I feel like we're all gonna have the same bottle in the same

Top and it's a question of what the order is. I agree with you. Although I think we don't but the I say there's an objective Reality of the top two and if you guys get it wrong, I'm gonna storm out interesting Okay, I'd say roller ball is his worst movie. Okay, I'm gonna storm out. Interesting. Okay, I'd say Rollerball is his worst movie. Okay, you're gonna bounce the top, sure. I put that at 11, I put Nomads at 10, I put 13th Warrior at nine. I'm like, those are the three that I- Interesting.

I have Medicine Man at nine. I have Basic at eight, I have Medicine Man at seven. So I'm just like 13th warrior nomads rollerball those are a tear medicine man basic that's like a mini tier okay then I'm like last action hero is firmly in the middle of like this perfect embodiment of number slash that's my six right and then there's just a rock-solid top five but give me the note that is all four to five star movies in the order my order and this is all four to five star movies. Give me the order.

My order, and this is shooting off the hip. Number five Die Hard with Evasions. Number four Thomas Crown Affair. Number three Hunt for Red October. Number two Predator. Number one Die Hard. Should I go next? Yes. We have to build up suspense.

Has objective reality been serviced? I'm going to get into it, but I have thoughts. I have Rollerball at 11, Nomads at 10, I'm sorry. Medicine Man at nine, 13th Warrior at eight, Basic at seven. Yeah, see, I just find Medicine Man more watchable. Not I. Even if it's not more functional. I have Last Action Hero at six.

I have Thomas Crown at five, to my own surprise. I love to die hard with a vengeance so much. I have Last Action Hero at six. I have Thomas Crown at five, to my own surprise. I love to die hard with Avenged so much on Rewatch. Yes. That I have that at four. I have Predator at three and Red October at two. Die Hard is my number one. But I agree with you, it re-tiers generally.

Right, like the basement of that tier might honestly be four and a half stars. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I basement of that tier might honestly be four and a half stars. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I just think that Die Hard Hunt for it October has to be the top two just in terms of I think that those are the best executed like studio pieces of entertainment a human being could ever make. I agree with you. I just love Predator so fucking much. Predator is a very griff movie.

It has a big lizard man in it. I agree with you. I just love Predator so I will never very griff movie Big lizard man, and it's a parody of masculinity and it's like a sandbox movie with everything mushed together I agree with you anyway. We love these films Look, I think it's a difference between if I'm like, what is John McTiernan's finest work versus? What is my favorite John McTiernan movie? I mean, he's made six movies to me that are all five stars, but a couple of them are like 500 stars. So like, I'll just, I'm gonna start from the top because I'm crazy. Yeah, no, no, do that.

Number one's Die Hard, obviously. Yeah, Undeniable. It's, you know, one of the best movies I've made. Hunferred October, I think, is honestly not that far away from Die Hard. It's just fucking unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And like, I had done a list before I did my re-watch,

and it was number three, and when I watched it, I'm like, this is Undeniable. Like, I think if you know anything of and it was number three and when I watched it I'm like this is undeniable like I think anything of it just while I was watching I'm like I'd be wrong to do anything But then now I go insane because I'm voting just on favorite sure which is number three is last action here So that's I saw this coming. Yeah, last action hero. Maybe I respect percent of it There's like there's some jokes in it that have never made me laugh and never will and it's 20 minutes too long But the highs of it to me are like so fucking high I mean, this is this is my fucking Nancy Meyers intern take where I'm like, there's 30% of the internet I hate and 70% of it. I think it's the best shit ever. I compare it to the intern all the time

They're very similar movies but like the intro of Arnold walking over the cop cars with like zooming and like tracking with it he he steps down, the guitar kicks in, the cigar, fucking unbelievable. Predator's next, perfect movie. And the shocking thing for me was that I put Thomas Crown above Die Hard 3 on this, and Die Hard 3's always been one of my favorite movies, and it still is, but the finale of Thomas Crown on this viewing, I'm just like, this is like God making things.

I think that if you have to figure out those two movies are very close in a lot of ways in terms of ranking, right? And you're like, Thomas Crown nails the ending so hard, and that is exactly where Die Hard with a Vengeance falls apart a little bit, so if you have to give one of them the hair... He becomes MacGruber in the last two minutes.

Like, the whole movie, he's a badass, and suddenly a helicopter shows up, and he's like, I'm here, I'm John McClane, I'm blowing our cover. Like they come out, he gives him time to get another helicopter and then he gets out and then he like shoots a wire, but then it doesn't hit the thing, but then they run into the thing and then they ADR-align.

He says the thing. Yeah, it's just like, in any other movie, I'd be like fist pumping at that moment, but that movie is just so unbelievable. And then the final few moments feel like, well, we gotta end it, and we can't do that thing with the rocket launchers, so. I mean, I said it in our episode,

but the first hour of that movie is six out of five stars. The first hour is unbelievable, and then it drops down to five. I say that the first 47 movies that are Master, the next hour is just a classic and the last three minutes don't work. That I think is a good assessment. Alright, so next one is 13th Warrior, which I was really shocked by how much I enjoyed it on this watch.

I hadn't seen it since theaters. Then Basic and then Nomads and then my bottom two are Medicine Man and Rollerball. Medicine Man to me was just like, it was like seeing a movie out of focus. It just wasn't, and I went down a crazy rabbit hole on it, and it was all because he had a meeting with Connery and realized that Connery would not be the lead, he had to be the lead and he wouldn't let's like have to be a strong woman and he was like it needed to be the dynamic of like Thomas Crown Affair, but like she's just no I love her and everything else but in that movie this was our take on that episode It is one of the most catastrophic miscastings in the history of Hollywood in a way that actually feels Like cruel to her. Yeah, and I love her but like she's just it felt like they're like who is the Yeah, and I love her but like she's just it felt like they're like who is the least right person? Yeah, to carry this whole movie that is already a weird idea for a movie. Yes, and then roller balls just roller ball

I mean, it's not a good film. It's not it doesn't really doesn't really make it work doesn't really roll I Will miss this man I will too I mean just I'm just like looking at my letterbox list visually. And it was the whole argument for why we wanted to do him, why we got excited when we started doing him. It's just being like, look at these five of the most watchable movies ever made at this top tier.

The way letterbox visually splits it up, you know? It's why we did him. And why we always were going to do him. And everything weird is weird in an interesting way. There is nothing uninteresting about this man's career. But Thomas Crown, I think, is really, really, really underrated. And it's also just not a great home video version of it. But when I was watching it, I'm like, it's one of the best R-rated programmers for adults

made of any era for me. It feels like a movie that could be on TCM It's so good UK released with a good slipcover and some retrospective features Well, you know I bought the wrong blu-ray, and you know whatever I guess I'm not a physical media guy It's still not great, but it's it's it's better than the American version. Hmm interesting. I'm really embarrassed I didn't know this happened. I would have bought it over overdue for a 4k Maybe it'll happen now basically anytime I buy an import. It's a book that looks like the briefcase a steel case I mean That's fun

I would say I have to mention it just that you are in the episode of my show that was very loosely Inspired by last action hero, so there is that tissue that is true and the main role of the sort of motley of miscellaneous roles I played on the show was me riffing on John Travolta my Danny Zuko demented Danny's yeah that's straight walls we should go full Zuko yeah and I'm really excited that David Lynch one-year March Madness you're calling it here it had the voting hasn't even started yet. We recorded before the episode. It looks like Soderbergh is taking Barry Levinson to the cleaners. That's all we really know so far. Okay, that's the only news we have before the episode

You were saying you were gonna do the opposite bit of confidently predicting the person you think is least likely to win and now you're you're Just I was gonna be like I'm so glad Curtis Hansen won. And I feel like I probably did it somewhere in this 10-hour podcast and forgot it. But I hope you do, Lynch, because you... There's a fake movie in one of our episodes that you can barely hear in the mix now, where I wrote like 10 pages of like a Preston Sturgis or Frank Capra movie.

It was very fun to record. Dean Hurley, who is Lynch's sound designer, created a whole fake audio track, and I don't even know how anyone can hear it. Anyone who's heard it loves it, but you can't hear it in the mix. And you had to do like 10 pages of dialogue for it. I did a lot.

I did a lot. It was fun to do. No, I mean, I don't know if there's some way to somehow, who knows? But yes, it's a deep, deep east. But everything that's in the video store, there's a fake movie playing in all the background. And then, yeah, that's the thing you're in, like Dean Hurley, who did Twin Peaks The Return and all that stuff.

So when Curtis Hansen and Lynch tie and you do both of their series back to back. Yeah, that's the one promise we're making. We're going to do them both. Tell the listeners what show you're talking about. We should plug it. Has Cop Pilgrim takes off? I know, but you just said Marty's show. I mean, anyone who's going to watch it already plug it. It's got Pilgrim Techs on. I know, but you just said Marty saw it. Sorry, I meant, well, you know, Griffin played multiple people on the show.

I didn't play multiple men, but I played multiple characters. And we got hired because of the ad reads on this show. This is true. This is what Ben David has told me. I did tell him that. That's awesome. That's cause of the... You could play Jamie Madrox, right? Which Eric Dane played him.

Is that the only time everyone's attempted? He's the only live action? Yeah. I'm kind of an Eric Dane type, right? The way those fucking movies burn. The silence, the not-response. Yes, you're a McSteamy reborn. What are you talking about?

If you don't laugh at what I say, then it makes it sound like I'm insane. I was in the middle of a fugue state over how the later X-Men movies waste a lot of my favorite X-Men with one scene where they're like, I'm the multiple man, I get multiple, and someone's like, I just hit you in the head

with a hammer, and he's like, I'm dead. I watch the entire Fox X-Men universe every day, and I have zero notes. It was executed perfectly. You have zero notes about the behind the scenes Yeah, the morality of the people working on the films Especially in senior positions I Go good sounds good. Oh man. I had something to say and I just got so thrown

That guy needs to get taken down a peg make him uncomfortable a lot That guy needs to get taken down a peg make him uncomfortable It's well sadly only ever played nightcrawler one that sucks, and then he wanted to come back and then I don't know fuck you We only make bad decisions here. I just want to say in case I never get to come back that this is Either way, this is my favorite podcast and I'm extremely appreciative that I got to be on it and I even I listened to Every normal episode and the patreon episodes. That's a good way to delineate normal and patreon No, I think we're good on paywall, I know I'm paywall, but it's not normal

Yeah, I'm just saying it's like I definitely listen to way too much for all of it And I just do want to mention that when I listened to the Predator one and we got to the end and Chris said, none of them were good at Arnold impressions. No, no. I mean, one of us is really bad at it. I like the focus of that statement being on the group being bad rather than what I've been reading for the last several weeks are, I know he's trying to own it and be funny But truly how is he so bad?

It's just funny that you do Adam Sandler in Hotel Transylvania that you do an impression of something that is recognizable That's why you're Very different it doesn't sound like Arnold, but it does I know and then when I was listening back to the episode, I was like, yeah, it kind of does have a blah, blah, blah. Like, yeah. If he bleeds, we can kill it. Blah, blah, blah. I don't think I have a particularly good Arnold at all,

but having a good Arnold, it's like walking or whatever. It's like, there's 80 guys who do a good one. You're never going to hit that tier. People have been saying I've been putting too much energy into it. Yeah, sure. Get to the chopper. Like if I just, they're like just do McBain. much energy into it. Yeah, sure. Get to the chopper. Like if I just, they're like, just do McBain.

Well, just say something else. Yeah, do McBain, sure. That's the joke. I'm like, I don't think I'm doing that well, but it's less egregious than what I was doing at the beginning of this miniseries. There's something... Have you ever been able to do someone then lost it? Like I used to do a really good Wahlberg, and now I couldn't do it with a gun in my head. Interesting.

Like I could do it and everyone would like laugh, and then now it's like I got in my head about it, and now I don't sound like him at all when't do it with a gun in my head interesting Yeah, I could do it and everyone would like laugh and then now it's like I got in my head about it and now I don't Sound like him at all when I honestly I get any time. I'm fucking teed up to do Joseph Gordon Levitt I have that fear of like what if this is the time I realize I've lost it top will spin I'm Julie Andrews, and I can't sing anymore. I'm like it's the one that everyone agrees. I have You have others dude. You shouldn't just think of no. No, he just takes a lot out of me. I Can't believe I did a Jonathan Liebsman drive-by for like it was a reason I think it was like now I'm someday I'm gonna host SNL and he's gonna be the musical guest and it's gonna be like really Bad look does play a mean kazoo

first of all ten comedy points second of all We're doing Ninja Turtles on patreon, so I'll be making my own drive-bys. Oh poor Liebsman. That's right He's about to get like worked like a speed bag. Yes, that's right Hey, and David, you know who we're doing next have I told you I forget you're doing after this yeah My goodness, I don't know, but I'm excited to find out and not be able to tell anybody for months Well next week we're rolling straight into our next miniseries because we do have a couple new releases coming out this summer that are Going to break things up some scheduling palette cleansers We have Furiosa and Beetlejuice Beetlejuice and M Night Shyamalan's trap coming up over the summer

So no kind of Ben's choices or palette cleansers in between. I mean, you never know. Does M. Night Shyamalan's daughter get covered? No, but I'm excited for that movie. Yeah. It's got a good premise. We're getting to an interesting territory of do we owe this movie in any form? There's starting to be some things that feel adjacent to things we owe. And I feel like we're erring on the side of no. No, no, but the Patreon's there for a reason.

We can always throw things up there maybe. Yeah, but like when I walk out my door, people throw eggs at me and go like, what is the plan for Frozen Empire? And I'm like, probably we never do an episode like that before. Yeah, we know. I think we have a hard and fast rule. We are not obligated to cover new entries in franchises.

That is true. We've never done that. Unless it is a main feed franchise. We, but yes, that's right. But like. Yes, but we set that for us right away because we did Marvel and it's not like we're gonna catch up on every Marvel. You know what, that's good that we've, it's the Marvel rule.

Right, and at this point, imagine if we were like, all right guys, strap in 15 more Marvel episodes. And they're the ones that everyone likes. And we watch all the shows. Look, next week we're going straight into another, if not overdue, long-mold, long-requested, long-desired filmmaker. Yes. Satoshi Kon.

Yes, Satoshi Kon. Another tragically short filmography. True, got short by Death. Death. His first film, Perfect perfect blue will be our episode next week my favorite animated movie of all time I mean this guy made several films that are in that conversation I think so there are at least three of his movies I hear people regularly argue could be considered the

greatest animated film of all time. The height of their medium and the TV show that people also consider the height of a medium. No slouch either and then the fourth one I've that's the only one I've ever seen but I hear it's no slouch Satoshi Kohn perfect blue Millennium actress Tokyo Godfathers Paprika paprika month of Satoshi and we'll be doing paranoia agent on patreon. Are you gonna do a patreon of opus his? No, but I've ordered I'm gonna read it. It's really good. It's on my coffee table. Yeah And then after that we're gonna do a couple other guys before we get to Curtis Hansen or whoever it is. Yeah, we're doing shorties because we we have to

We kind of keep it we were gonna run out of runway waiting for March Madness winners We got to stay ahead. So we're doing we're slotting in a couple shorties But it's been fun to knock out a lot of these people who have been, and before anyone thinks that's a sign that we're ending the show, if we covered every person who we have said we will definitely cover one day, the show would run for 10 years to get us right to Tom Shadyak,

and then we end on a perfect note. When are you doing Gore Verbinski? Exactly. Oh, I missed my best bad joke. I'm so mad, I missed my best bad joke. I'm so mad. Which is my theory that the guy who shot, I already ruined my joke, but the guy who shot roller ball in basic shot baseball before that. My theory is that McTiernan was so obsessed with how he shot that new sport that he hired

that guy to do roller ball. Which is also my theory of Spielberg was so in a cool as ice. That's why he hired that guy to do rollerball. Yeah, which is also my theory like of Spielberg was so in a cool As I said, that's why you hired Kaminsky like I just decide there's always some harebrained reason I think my joke responds to you you because you texted that joke to me. Oh, I think at some point I said you can use this joke. Yeah, I think I texted and I said you get to say that and I think my response was Basic skit ball it is I think I response was basic skitball. It is. I think I texted you basic skitball. It is so funny to think about Spielberg hiring Janusz Kaminski not because he's Polish

and like I'm making Schindler's List and maybe I should, but instead of being like, cool as ice is giving Schindler's List. If you watch that movie on mute, it does. It does. It's got all the gravitas. Yeah. Yes, and of course, after Satoshi Konnweil It does. It's got all the gravitas. Yeah. Yes.

And of course, after Satoshi Konn, we will be discussing the directorial career of Yanush Kaminsky. It's going to be Lost Souls. Oh, man. Always forget to be direct at that. Yeah. I forget that movie every day. That's actually-

You forget that movie every day. Every day it slips out of your brain. It does. But that someday I do want to do a podcast on why direct DP should stay DPs and not direct Even if it's a rare jump right yeah, you and I have had that conversation Yeah, the two who made the jump successfully and then lost it who? Sonam Sure, like it's worth it for it's worth it for those

But if you look at all the other guys every single time they do it, it's like dude like it's just fascinating This doesn't happen and astounding that those two guys still couldn't maintain. Yeah, and they can never go back It's like they all everyone would rather just direct commercials forever than go back to being like an a-list DP Well, come on, man. There's one guy in particular. We've talked a lot about no, but it's a lot of guys No, I know Lancer court is like the biggest commercial director out there He was like Jones amazing DP and the commercials he does, I would say, are not particularly interesting. This is a weird way to end the McTiernan episode. It is.

Is there anything else we need to say? Did you know that Lance Accord directed that like 10 minute E.T. sequel mini movie? Look, it's... I'm not gonna beef with anyone like who's earned in the living or whatever, but yes. Can we just talk about the fact that Predators should not be watchable, and yet it's a masterpiece? It's a masterpiece. Yes, I mean, I agree with that. Predator's very good.

And that is a McTernan film, so probably a better thing to end on. But is there any other... Let's end on the note. Do you want to do your Schwarzenegger impersonation one more time, maybe? Can we do that? Remember the Schwarzenegger prank call thing? Can we prank call someone that feels like a Producer Ben move? Can we do that? Remember the Schwarzenegger prank call thing? Can we like prank call someone that's like feels like a producer Ben move? Like the soundboard? Yeah the soundboard where it's like my CPU is a neural net processor.

Can we make a Yarnold soundboard so people can prank phone call other people with Yarnold? No we need to redo it where Griffin does all of them. Well you're asking it as a question and if I had to answer I would say no. Okay then I'll say... Thank you all for listening to this mini series. Are you just putting some spin on it? No, I'm actually... No, because if I want to do a better I'll just... Thank you all for listening to this. So fuck it. Fuck! Here's what I want to say. Here's how I want to end the episode. Yes.

Ben David, thank you for being here. Thank you, Ben David. I hope I didn't ruin it. Absolutely not. We'll have you on Sooner Than Dragonfly, which you for being here. Thank you Ben. I hope I didn't ruin it. Absolutely not We'll have you on sooner than dragonfly, which is on the books. I'm looking here January 1st 20 20 35 yeah 35 there you go. Yeah Yeah Yeah, Baron Trump is president. So you're gonna have me for patch Adams. Yeah, okay

And now excuse me. Let me just prepare myself here. Mm-hmm Thank you all for listening, please remember to rate review and subscribe Thank you to everybody for the co-producing the show. It's like he's trying to eat flubber Thank you to JJ Bunch for all the research. Like his mouth is at war with itself Thank you, Lee McCartney the great American novel for our theme song. End of Days is pretty good. Alex Barron, AJ McKeon for our editing. AJ McKeon's also the production coordinator.

I'm gonna watch that. I'm gonna watch End of Days. Joe Bonparams for artwork. Thinking of doing like a Satan series. You should do Peter Hyams. He put your face on my body, David. David, he put your face on my body, David. David, he put your face on my body. He put your face on my body. Isn't that funny?

David. I'm gonna get to the choppa. Tune in next week for Perfect Blue Blah Blah Blah. We probably know the guests on that one, but we'll see. And as always, I have been your Arnold Hay. Your Arnold Hay.