Blank Check with Griffin & David - Beowulf with Jordan Hoffman

Episode Date: December 6, 2020

This is Beowulf! Yes, in 2007, Bobby Z took the Old English epic poem and, once again using cutting edge mo-cap technology, delivered a 3-D movie that this week's guest, Jordan Hoffman, aptly describes as "resembling a PlayStation 3 cut scene". Also discussed is Crispin Glover's performance as Grendel, Angelina Jolie's hatred for this film, the background behind the Neil Gaiman and Roger Avary screenplay, and the PG-13 rating despite all the violence and horniness. Check out Jordan's new podcast, The Dune Conversations with John and Jordan, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your pods! Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch @ shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

I am Ripper, Terror, Slasher, Gouger. I am the teeth in the darkness, the talons in the night. Mine is strength and lust and power. I am podcast. Yeah, yeah, of course. You had to. Right. Very, very good.

Good job. Good job. Good aggro, Winston. Yeah. It's not a disco, Winston. It's not this kind of windstone. It's the yelling at you that I am Beowulf. He's Beowulf. All right, this man, I'm kind of calm now, but now I'm Beowulf.

How else would you know him, him Beowulf? He has to. Sorry for the misunderstanding here. I should have introduced myself earlier. I am Beowulf. What do I know about cholesterol? He used to do this ad. I feel like I've talked about it on the podcast before.

For like Special K or some healthy cereal. Wasn't it Weetabix? Or no, no. Bob Hoskins was Weetabix. But at one point he goes, But what do I know about cholesterol? No one thought you knew anything about cholesterol. It wasn't a problem. To be fair, I thought he knew a lot about cholesterol.

You did? All right, fair enough. Wait, now I have to look this up. It's for some... Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. I confirm that, no, because Bob Hoskins was the voice of one of the Weetabix Tufts

in the commercial where the Weetabix was animated and animate, and he was like, I'm Weetabix, ain't I the commercial where the Weetabix was animated and animate and he was like, I'm Weetabix, ain't I? You're right. You're right. You know, famously in Britain, Bob Hoskins, it's good to talk. You know, he was the voice of British telecom, right? But

now I'm trying to figure out which serial Ray Winstone God damn it. Well, David, don't beat yourself up I mean you have to look this up It's the first time you would ever hear this information This is new to you

It was called Optivia Optivia? It was a serial? Yeah I'm watching the ad now When it comes to food There's a bit of a nanny culture thing going on Foodist Don't do that, do this He's just like monologuing at us When it comes to food, there's a bit of a nanny culture thing going on. Food is, don't do that, do this.

He's just like monologuing at us, like talking about like, they're always nannying us. When from? That's a great question. 2006. Around this time. Around this time. He's feeding you obtivia and teaching you about ancient Norse culture simultaneously. Getting this big Beowulf paycheck. Getting that wolf money.

Top billed in a $100 million American animated film. Can I throw out a couple other quotes from this Beowulf IMDb quote page? Go ahead. Wig laugh. Best character. Bracket. Stabbing at Grendel's crotch. I swear the bastard has no pintle that's old english griffin that's old english it propels the plot though because when he

discovers that his eardrums are his pintle he says something to the tune of the pintle pointing at his eardrums. The pintle. Yeah. Here's another classic, classic quote from the movie Beowulf, the 2007 Robert Zemeckis Beowulf film. King Hrothgar, during Grendel's attack, and then here's the quote.

A sword! Give me a sword! Is that it? Yeah, remember that quote? I mean, you seem to be you're getting mad at the IMDB quotes page for Beowulf now. Now you're just picking fights. But what about this one? What about this quote

from Wiglaf, okay? Wiglaf. Wiglaf's a great character. Wiglaf rules. Load of laughs. I agree, and here's a great quote from a great character. Ready? Wiglaf seeing the dragon for the first time. Odin swiping balls. That one's good. Come on.

That one's good. I swear to God. Swiving means to lay with a woman. Wow. So his balls fuck? You're telling me that this guy's balls fuck? Hey, you know, it was ancient times. What can I tell you?

Wig laugh. Hello, everybody. This is a little podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. My name is Griffin. I am David. This is Beowulf. This is a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their career

to give a series of black checks, make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bounce, baby. It's a Mayfair series on the films of Robert Zemeckis, that tricky Bobby Z, and today we're talking about, I was going to say one of his weirder entries, but this would be a weirder entry in almost anyone else's filmography.

And instead you're just like, oh yeah, another Zemeckis movie. Yeah, it is. Well, he has made a lot of weird movies. I guess it's tough for me to. Yeah, it's the weirdest. It's very weird. It's very weird. But here's the thing.

I feel like in someone else's career, this would be uncontested the weirdest. And instead, this is in that batch of five where you have to wrestle with which one might be weirdest. No, this is the weirdest. It's the one that looks like a PS2 cutscene where there's like jizz all over a fake Angelina Jolie in a cave. Excuse me. Golden jizz. That's true. That's true. Introduce our guest, Griffin.

Well, I was trying to start the show quickly, get the introductions out of the way quickly, because our guest needs no introduction, hence why we have not introduced him the previous times he's been on the show. Apparently a sticking point. No, no, not at all. You know, it's just,

when you're a guest on a popular podcast, your introduction is the thing you look forward to the most. Anybody who says otherwise is lying. And the two times I've been on the show prior, my introduction has come about 11 seconds before we were all out the door. I mean, a classic bit, though. It's a classic. Oh, yeah. It's a classic bit. You are notorious for usually, I mean, let's say this is the reason I've always held off your introduction for the last minute.

You think so thoroughly that a podcast peaks when you're introduced that you tend to leave the show right after your introduction. You're notorious for bailing post-intro. Beowulf. Beowulf. Beowulf. I don't know. David.

Wow. Wow. That was amazing I tried to leap on that And it just blew up in my face David you have to leave I'm gonna go You have to bail a wolf on this podcast

You can't do the same joke that I was about to do Come on I made a cleaner I didn't stumble on it I didn't hit any speed bumps Yeah alright fine Jesus There are no wolves I didn't stumble on it. I didn't hit any speed bumps. I went Beowulf. Yeah, all right, fine. Jesus. There are no wolves in Beowulf.

That dog in the beginning kind of has some wolf characteristics. It's a fair point. I guess there's no absolute wolf characters. There were a lot of wolves roaming around back then, right? It was more of an issue. I mean, yeah, maybe there are no wolves exactly to speak of in this episode, but

this movie is full of some dirty dogs, you know what I'm saying? That is true. Everyone at home, lean in for that joke. The movie's like wall-to-wall wolf whistles. This is his horniest movie. I mean, that's kind of what's most fascinating about it

is he's this filmmaker where you feel like he's just keeping his horniness at bay. Like he's trying not to go full horny on Maine, but it's always like, it's right there. He always got one scene where it peeps out and you're just like, too horny, too horny, Bobby. And this movie, he's like, ah! Okay.

It's very horny. I have a couple things to say to that. One, you're probably right. It's probably his horniest movie. You are forgetting Marwen is horny in its own way. I think this is hornier. Yeah, I think it is too. But two, this movie is so completely subsumed in fears of castration,

in the most basic Freudian male sexual terror, that horny isn't even the word. It definitely, there's a lot going on sexually with this movie. It's his weird Catholic guilt movie. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. In certain ways. Look, there's a lot to dig into here,

but our guest today, you know him from the blue steel episode sure kids went crazy for that you know him from our melvin and howard episode ladies and gentlemen the great jordan hoffman is here to talk beowulf oh my god applause two applause oh my god it's a big day It's a big day Hello everyone, nice to see you all What a pleasure It's a pleasure Griffin And Dave Sims, Dave You and I normally see one another On the reg in a non

Yeah, once a week, maybe more In a non-pandemic era Right We have not seen each other in a long time So it's really nice to see you through the I know this is an audio show for the people listening we can see each other you know on the screen

yeah so it's nice you look beautiful oh that's ridiculous and then you look nice too I miss you know just trekking up to the AMC Lincoln Square like at 7 o'clock on a Monday to see whatever underwater. This year's paywall.

Yeah, exactly. And thinking, this sucks. Do you remember when you used to complain about screenings? Right, yeah. We'd record an episode and you'd be like, ugh. Now I have to go uptown to see Sonic the Hedgehog. And now it's just like, I would crawl across broken glass to see Sonic the Hedgehog. And now it's just like I would crawl across broken glass to see Sonic the Hedgehog in a theater.

Yeah, at a fucking 9 p.m. matinee. Do you remember the glory days when we got to see Sonic at 9 p.m. on a Saturday? You mean 9 a.m.? 9 a.m., sorry. That was a morning screen. Did you see Sonic, Jordan? Were you there? Were you one of the chosen few?

I think I did miss that one. I did miss that one. I did miss that one. It had Sonic in it. But I've done my share of those Saturday 9 a.m.s. I've seen Hop with, what's his name? Russell Brand. There you go. Right, he was Hop.

He was second runner-up for Beowulf. He was almost Beowulf. He would have been great. Swaggering and imagining i'm beowulf um grendel mind going around the shop go around the corner shop and uh pick me up some kippers right that's what they do in england right they go to absolutely that would have come up he he would have a prank phone called uh grendel on his radio show and made jokes about having sex with Grendel's mother. Oi, Grendel. I had a bang

with your mom. Isn't that how they do it? Here's the thing I've been thinking about recently. I don't think I said this on this podcast. I think I said this maybe somewhere off, Mike. To you, David. Sonic the Hedgehog is currently the last film to make $100 million

at the domestic box office. Wow. Right? I believe that's accurate. I can't imagine what else they would do. It comes out in February. It has a big, big opening. It's the last film that opened strong enough

and had enough time afterwards to make easily over $100 million. Yes. It had legs. It had legs. Blue furry legs. And they went like this. Fast. They just went like this. Fast.

They just went like a wheel. How long do we think it is before another film crosses $100 million? That's a great question. Right? Like, how long is Sonic the Hedgehog going to hold on to that title as the last blockbuster? I hope a long time. Years. Monster Hunter?

But Monster Hunter, right, that's supposed to come out when? January, February? Christmas, Christmas. Is it still on Christmas? I feel like it's one of the only movies that hasn't moved. Well, you know, I mean, I don't want to be too optimistic, but they are announcing today, I mean, not to put a timestamp. There was encouraging news today about the vaccine. Encouraging news from two places about vaccine.

And then there's a second news item that they have a therapy drug. And did you see the name of this therapy drug? It's like Bob Black Betty Bam-a-Nam. I don't know. Something like that. It's a ridiculous name. I mean, could you imagine the world being saved by a medicine called... Are you going to look it up?

Bam-lan-a-v-a-mab. Yes. Bam-lan-a-v-a-mab. Bam-lan- Bam-lan-iv-imab. Yes, Bam-lan-iv-imab. Bam? Bam-lan-iv-imab. Bam-lan-iv-imab. What the hell? How did they come up with these things? I think they were in like a cave with Angelina Jolie and hunting the sword and various North totems and a genie said Bam-Lam-A-Mav.

I'm going to just call it Bam-Margera for short. Oh, Viva La Bam. Bam. Viva La Bam. Hook me up with some Bam. But the Bam might do the trick, and I'll take a little Bam. You know, why not?

At the time we were recording, there was a deadline story today about how Wonder Woman is the one big movie still on the schedule for Christmas we're recording this in early November and that it's like the theater chains are making the last big plea to

California LA, New York government officials to get them to open the theaters in time for Christmas because apparently like this is the week where Warner Brothers needs to pull the trigger on the marketing campaign or give up on releasing it this year. There's a lot of rumors

that it'll get pumped to the summer. Right. But they're throwing out the last Hail Mary pass. Right. I have mixed feelings. I have mixed feelings. It's a shitty situation. I don't know if you can cuss, but it's a shitty situation. You can cuss a storm. Of course you can. I don't like to cuss. You know me. I'm all family man. But you know, speaking of cussing, in Of course you can. I don't like to cuss. You know me. I'm family man.

But you know, speaking of cussing, in this here Robert Zemeckis motion picture, you'll hear Kostas Mandalore's voice in a shitty CG fane from God knows where saying to a busty wench, Come on. My mighty lust limb can transport you to paradise, to ecstasy and back. No other man will ever be able to satisfy you again. That's old English, Jordan. I mean, that's poetry. You're supposed to walk into the room

saying that in a booming voice. Yeah, into a mead hall. Directly from the poem, I'm pretty sure. That's a direct translation. I got a quick follow-up question for you, Jordan. That busty wench wiping down the tables

who has an extended sequence where they cut back and forth between her and Mandalore and her pendulous breasts just swing and jiggle in glorious 3D PlayStation 3 level graphics. I think you want to say, I think it's 3DD, Griffin.

Oh, come on. I mean. Oh, wow. Do you know who plays that wench? No, no. I wish I did. Leslie Zemeckis. Oh, really?

Leslie Zemeckis. Wow. This is a through line. He gets remarried to a woman who I believe at that point in time is predominantly a burlesque performer. Yes, I can look it up officially. It happens right before the motion capture era. But there is a burlesque marionette in Polar Express that I swear is modeled after her. This character is modeled after her, played by her.

And then she's also one of the women of Marwen. modeled after her, played by her, and then she's also one of the women of Marwen. He loves making these really horny, sexualized depictions of his wife in these CGI movies. That's a great story. I mean, that warms the cockles of my heart. Who says romance is dead? She is indeed credited in

the polar expression in Beowulf and Marwen. She's also credited in A Christmas Carol, so we gotta watch out for her in that one. I'm looking here at the credits. The ghost of Boner's future? Oh, Fred's wife. Oh, boy, God. That's the one I'm the least looking forward to.

Well, I mean, so right before that, you're right. Before this scene, she's wiping down the table. Costas Mandalore says that his loins are burning by looking at her and then there's a joke now so there's a joke right before the the line i just quoted my muddy lust limb we can transport you to paradise um when they're outside and uh and there's a noise and he's like what was that was that your demon? And she says, no, no, that was a wolf. You don't hear Grendel when he comes. And he goes, well, ha ha, you'll hear me, I promise.

Yes. Now, what's amazing is that this movie's PG-13. PG-13. This is a PG-13 film. And it is animated. And they were pushing, and we're going to get into this, I'm sure, they were pushing the 3D in this movie. Hard. This movie was a line in the sand before Avatar.

Before Avatar, there was Beowulf. This was the first modern digital 3D movie on a thousand screens. This was the widest release. Nobody remembers it. That's why this episode of this podcast is significant and important, and we all should be excited. So it's for kids. This movie's for kids.

Cliff Notes. If I was in school, I'd watch this as cliff notes baby I'm not reading this shit I'm watching this movie here's the thing Ben if you watch this as cliff notes and then went into school your teacher would be like

I don't know where you're getting a lot of this from you've got a wild reading on that poem do you know Ben none of the sex stuff is in the poem. Oh, boy. The king isn't Grendel's father. Beowulf isn't the dragon's father. That would be an awkward book report. Yeah.

Okay. Noted. You just keep describing fucking. But your teacher would know. It's like, oh, you saw that horny, costless Mandalore, didn't you? You saw him. You blame it on Mandalore. Okay. We've got to pull this back. Pull it back. Pull it way back.

We're here to talk about Beowulf. Obviously, podcast away, Robert Zemeckis. Beowulf. So, the 8th century. No, no, I'm kidding. What? Further. Further. We got to go all the way back to the 8th century. What's the first line of Beowulf, this movie?

What's the first line of the movie or of the poem? I can tell you what it is. It's a shredding guitar line. Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na. Yeah, it sure is. It basically sounds like Korn. But after you hear some Korn and they chant Hrothgar, Hrothgar enters, puny little cg awful looking anthony

hopkins and he says i want mead oh he does he does oh are you setting up your uh yeah i'm setting some up now i wish we could be there today in person that's the sad thing about this being uh the pandemic because i happen to have here and i'm gonna uncork it for you i have and this is no joke i know i have a bottle of mead whoa that's right that's right i have a bottle of mead i'm gonna drink a little mead while we do our show and yeah i mean a little of that stuff goes a long way i'm gonna put it in a original star trek 3 the search for spock glass let's see it see it. I want to see that glass. Taco Bell put these out a long time ago. Well, Hoffman, I feel like I have to match you, my good man.

So I am going to... Do you have mead also? No, I have a raspberry-flavored white claw and I'm going to pour that into a C-3PO tiki mug. Oh, nice, nice. Alright. Jesus, now I want a drink. L'chaim.

Now, mead is essentially like fermented honey. I think I've had it once or twice. It was like the White Claw of its day. Overly sweet. It's a good trainer for middle schoolers who have stolen some drinks. It's like lean. It's like now the kids have lean. Back then, they had mead.

Kids love lean. The thing about mead is it's an ancient drink. Yes. But so is wine and beer. People still drink wine and beer. They don't drink mead. And for a very good reason. Right.

It's terrible. I think that the wine and beer of the day would baffle our tongues, right? Like, I think they've evolved. They've modernized. But even so, mead was the sweeter option. Mead was your Sminoff Ice, your Mike's Hard, your White Claw. Right. Your Four Loko was your mead.

Yeah. So I'm drinking mead. Hrothgar loved his mead, and I'm having some today, too. So we're here to talk Beowulf as we drink our mead in our beer hall. Jordan, you demanded to be on this episode. You said you were at the premiere am i making that up i was at the big event screening in in new york it wasn't the the hollywood premiere or whatever but it was you know whatever i i feel like you you threw out your shot to be on this

episode before zemeckis had even won march madness like it was like in the early rounds you were like if zemeckis wins i'm doing beowulf It was like, in the early rounds you were like, if Zemeckis wins, I'm doing Beowulf. Yeah, because this movie is fascinating. It's a fascinating blend of a lot of stuff. And when we get to some of the performances, when we get to

Screwy, what's his name? When we get to the guy, Chris McGlover. When we get to Chris McGlover, I have a little tale to tell. I have an oral poem, an epic poem to tell. I'll light the bonfire and tell you an amazing story. Excited for that. I do like, I mean, I have extremely mixed feelings about this motion picture. I do too.

I want to know what you guys think. I do too. I do think it's good if you made me decide. But it's certainly a mixed feeling. I can't hate this movie. It's too much fun. I come down pro, but it's one of those movies where watching it, you're like, this should rule. Like, I should unabashedly love this.

And there's obviously the technical barrier that the film is so much a product of the filmmaking process at the time, them overreaching beyond their means. But also there's just something that doesn't totally connect. It's not just that. It's an odd beast. The screenplay is lopsided. But the thing is, there's an inherent paradox in this film, which is the technical barrier is huge. The movie just looks atrocious. I mean, there are moments that are cool. The movement is good. The movie just looks atrocious. I mean, there are moments that are cool. The movement is good, but the dead eyes, the uncanny valley, it's just unbearable.

Yeah, so it is inherently a failure. And you say to yourself, well, if this was shot as a quote-unquote real movie and not this weird computer-generated thing, it would be amazing, but you could never do it. It would cost $700 billion and 20 people as a quote-unquote real movie and not in this weird computer generated thing it would be amazing but you could never do it it would cost 700 billion dollars and 20 people would have died

if you can't make this movie like this you can't do a shot for shot recreation of this with live action it just can never be done no that's the big quote uh you know, Avery and Gaiman write this as a script because Avery had gotten hired to try to adapt Sandman in one of the many misbegotten attempts to make a Sandman movie. Yes. They got close. Avery and Gaiman started talking Beowulf. I think it was Avery who had this reading of all this sort of sexual misconduct within Beowulf. Yeah. reading of all this sort of sexual misconduct within beowulf yeah the fact that you never really understood the relationships who grendel's father was where the i want to get all into that i'm gonna believe me there's all get into this but i i guess i'll let you i'll let you play that all out but to jump ahead it was a script that zemeckis was producing, signed on to produce, and Avery was going to direct as a $20 million movie. Roger Avery. Right. Roger Avery, who had won an Oscar for Pulp Fiction. This is before

Laws of Attraction, post-Killing Zoe. He wanted to make a scrappy, sort of Excalibur-style, low-budget medieval film. Scrappy Wolf. Right. So he wrote a scrappy, talky Beowulf with this reading of the text with Gaiman. Neil Gaiman. Neil Gaiman. Sir Neil Gaiman. Zemeckis comes on as a producer. For years, it just doesn't get off the runway.

Then, post-Polar Express, when he was like, fuck it, more, more, more, more, more mocap, he goes back to them and says, I could get your script greenlit tomorrow, but you have to let me direct it because I think the way to do it is with mocap. And the big thing he says to them is,

I want you to rewrite it and make it as big as you possibly can. Because they had written it budget consciously. Right. And he was like, forget it. But the line he says that i remember repeating so much through the press at the time as they were trying to sell this movie as like it's this fucking hardcore adult action epic the reason it's animated isn't because it's for kids it's because you could never do this shit in live action and his big quote that he always repeated was, I went to Gay Men and Avery and said, there is nothing you could possibly write which would cost me more than $1 million per minute.

And for a 90-minute movie, that's nothing to sneeze at, or maybe it's two hours. But yeah, all right, that works. Hair under. It works. It very much is directed with that energy of just like, I'm going to do every fucking thing

I've never been able to do as a filmmaker before. I mean, he rides a dragon with like bodies flying everywhere. He dislodges his own arm. And then he's got like basically full frontal Angelina Jolie in a PG-13 movie. What a time. Incredible chain work.

I mean, a lot of chain work. Off the chain. So good. And just, I mean, he did it on Polar Express, but all the camera stuff and the zooming through things and the, you know, flipping around the room like crazy and all that. Like, you know, that's great. Let's also say this. For as much as this movie does not look good, having just watched Polar Express and watching this and knowing those movies are three years apart,

this is like a seismic advancement. That's the thing. And I wonder if Christmas Carol will feel like that too. Like, is it all big leaps? Because yes, this looks way better than Polar Express, even though they still have the creepy flat faces like you just can't get past the creepy flat faces you know there are other things you're like oh it looks okay there are some shots that really work i mean it's on

a shot by shot there's some shots you're like yeah yeah fucking hey beowulf this movie rocks and then they just do a cut to a close-up of malkovich and you're like this is i'm in hell i'm in a i'm in a dimension of hell. Malkovich, man. It's also this thing. I think they hadn't, like, certain—the technology was not advanced enough to pick up certain types of actors. You know, there were only certain kinds of performances that even translated onto these models. And someone like Malkovich, who's such an energy actor, like he's a very subtle

application of energy aside from when he screams. There's not enough being captured there to get anything other than fucking wax figures. You know, that's a good point because, you know,

Winston plays, Winstone plays Beowulf one note. He's screaming like a lunatic, you know, he's a monster. But, you know, Malkovich is giving a genuine performance

and so's anthony hopkins a little bit and they come off much worse because there's attempted nuances attempt at being an actual human being and you can't do that you know the the what's her name um frowny mcsad the queen in this uh uh robin wright yeah she comes off awful. That's a disaster. Well, she looks like a painting. Like, her face just does not move at all. And she's so unappealing. And you're like, Beowulf can have any wench in the meat hall, and he's stuck on her.

Leslie Zemeckis, right there. I mean, I hate to say it, but she at least has... The boss's wife. She was lively. I mean, that shot of her, as you put it, 3D pendulous breasts is is meant for humor it looks weird but there's more life in that than in robin wright who's supposed to supposed to be the uh you know the the the one you're in love with i i think bobby spent 20 of the budget on

the breast shot from the boobs he just kept on sir, I think we're done with this sequence. Another pass. I have more notes. Yeah. So the visual aspect is weird, but then also something that watching it now you don't know, the 3D was so great

so that when you saw it in the theaters, I mean, I don't know if it was as good as Avatar, but it was in the same ballpark. I remember when people were going nuts for Avatar, I was like, if it was as good as Avatar, but it was in the same ballpark. I remember when people were going nuts for Avatar. I was like, hey, where were you last summer?

Didn't you see Beowulf? And they're like, no, that looked dumb. So I didn't see it. First of all, every bit as dumb as Avatar. They're equally dumb. This was two years earlier, and it absolutely felt like the dry run for Avatar. And I even feel like the entertainment press was positioning it as like, this is the first glimpse we're going to see of the kind of technology that Cameron's working with. Because everyone knew that movie was going to be like advancement in motion capture, advancement in digital 3D.

And most of the 3D releases up until this point were like kids movies kind of post-converted. A lot of like Nightmare Before Christmas being re-released and and small limited runs this was like a thousand screens were being converted to 3d for this this is a movie designed for 3d and i remember convincing a bunch of friends to go see it only interested where they're like 3d what's that even going to look like it's not red and blue like the novelty of just the technology was all it took to convince some friends to drive me to the theater to see it. And then afterwards I was like, and get this, James Cameron is using all that shit that we just saw to make a movie about an alien war. And we were just like, holy fucking shit. Crashed into a tree.

I mean, it was an amazing time. Yeah. And then there was a little bit, there was a sort of an interzone between this movie and Avatar. I think that My Bloody Valentine remake came out that had like good 3D. That has great 3D. There were a few others. And yeah, I mean, all, yeah, it's fine.

That's the same year as Avatar. So, yeah. So, so, you know, there's this weird sort of, now 3D is kind of over, but for a few years it was, it revolutionized, you know, the people this weird sort of, now 3D is kind of over, but for a few years it revolutionized, you know, the people listening now who are a little younger, maybe don't remember, it was a psychosis, a 3D psychosis at the end of the aughts that really threw, that changed theatrical movie going, mostly for the worst because, you know, you'd go to the local regal and they'd leave the 3d lens cap on on the projector and you'd go to see a non-3d movie it'd be dark you couldn't see anything i mean it was a very weird time that's that's pretty much all gone now it's 4dx now i mean that's just like it's not only 4d 4dx or boss i i've always been a very pro 3d guy i bought the last 3D television ever produced, not the last actual unit, but the last model. The furthest incarnation the technology was ever

going to reach in North America, I finally broke down and said, I'll get it. And so- So what's on 3D that you can watch? Like just Blu-rays or can you watch like sports? There's a button you can hit. No one's broadcasting in 3D anymore. There used to be some deep cable channels that were 3D and I don't even have cable and those channels don't even exist anymore. There's a button on the TV that says 3D which you can use

and it will like auto-convert things like Clash of the Titans style, the worst. That's like a Nintendo 3DS. And do you need to wear glasses for those yes so i got the tv that just any sort of like movie theater glasses work they're the more high end ones where they're like heavy duty glasses that require batteries and it's a lot more complicated i got the one where you can just use like you can steal glasses from the theater but

i've been buying a lot of 3D Blu-rays, especially during quarantine as I try to make my home feel more like movie going. And I bought all the Zemeckis movies on 3D so I could watch them this way. Beowulf is the one that was never released on 3D and it's the one that I argue

was the best. Weird. Like, it really was a great use of 3D in the theater. I saw this in IMAX 3D. I remember it being fun. Yeah, it fucking, it ruled. And you can't see it that way anymore uh i blame the death of 3d uh wholly on uh the king of quibi

himself not david sims jeffrey katzenberg who once the first wave of movies were successful was like the biggest champion of this is how we fight piracy everyone should release their movies in 3d every single film should be in 3d either you should shoot it or post convert it regardless of genre and also at that point in time the 3d surcharge was like one dollar on top of normal tickets and katzenberg was like we could be making so much more make it four or five dollar surcharge and And that's when things started bombing. And you had shitty conversions. And everyone got burned on it.

And people started like avoiding it at all costs. Actively. Right. Because like Beowulf, end of 2007. You look at the other 3D movies in 2007. It's Disney's Meet the Robinsons, which got a very limited release. Everything else is a nature documentary or uh harry potter and the order of the phoenix had 20 minutes in 3d only in imax wow so beowulf is like the first proper one yeah and the following year you have a lot of like u2

3d the hannah montana 3d movie which does. And then Journey to the Center of the Earth, which weirdly overperforms. But that also kind of overperforms because it's like, fuck, this movie's built for 3D. That movie's also really good. Never seen it. Well, all right, really good is overstating. That movie is tolerable, but not bad. 2009's the turning point, because then you have My Bloody Valentine, Coraline. You have Up, Monsters vs. Aliens. the turning point because then you have my bloody valentine coralline you have up monsters versus aliens uh and then like at the end of the the final destination in 3d you have like all the

animated films are coming on 3d michael jackson's this is it christmas carol and then avatar at the end of the year and then it's the fucking thing then they're off to the races yeah and yes but beowulf guys we're gonna talk about the movie beowulf not about 3d well We're gonna talk about the movie Beowulf Not about 3D Well, we're gonna talk about the 3D Ben, as you were saying Beowulf The poem, the old English poem

That's school Right? This is a movie This is a movie that's adapted from school Which I feel like is tricky. Yes, of course, Beowulf is a famous old English poem of adventure and glory, and you have swords, and you have dragons and monsters.

There's nothing more I want to see converted, but an old poem. Like a really old poem. That's what I want to see converted for the modern audience. It does have this... you love dusty poems you're dragging people to the theater griffin your friends and they're like beowulf you're like well it's in 3d you know come on that'll be you know it's funny there's two there's two funny things about that number one there's you know what beowulf like there's the line in in annie hall she's like i want to take uh classes

what should i take and he says well just don't take anything where they make you read Beowulf like Beowulf is the most eat your vegetables of anything in history and um what's interesting is that one of the better aspects of this film is and I'm gonna assign it to Neil Gaiman because it probably is him because he's Mr. Mythology and whatnot. There, there is some cool stuff in here that feels very teacher friendly, like certainly not the jokes about coming and, and, and,

and that, but like there are moments where like a teacher could show it, hit pause and say, you see what they just did. They just used, you know, the blah, blah,

blah fallacy or whatever kind of poetry crap they teach you in school. There's some of that, you know, and they talk about geography. They talk about other myths that are the psychology of Grendel. We're supposed to kind of feel bad for him. Well, there's that, too. A hundred percent that. But also, like, they talk about Fafnir, which another, that's the legend from the Gatradamerung. So that's like a little, you know, maybe they were going for like some sort of like cinematic universe where they do like school poetry cinematic universe.

Because that's not in the Beowulf poem, I don't think. But they mentioned that. So that's like, oh, we learned about Gatradamerung last unit. Now he's in this movie. Isn't that cool? That's clearly, at least I think clearly, Gaiman's shtick. And you could see him being like,

oh, aren't I clever? You know, putting that in there. And I think that's really cool. So there is a little bit of that school stuff in there. So, you know, there's a little bit of vegetables in this movie. But it's also just like, I want to whiz the camera around like a lunatic

and show violence and crazy action. Right, but so my wife, Forky, we know her well. Star of Toy Story 4. Star of Forky, Ask the Question, Emmy winner. I'm trying to think of any other credits for Forky. That's it.

Pandemic's been hard on the whole industry. I mean, no one's really booking in the way they were before this. A great utensil. Great utensil. Great utensil. Top tier utensil. She's also an English teacher. Humble brag.

And she teaches Beowulf to her children. That's right. You know what's funny? I've had a conversation with Forky about Gilgamesh, which is the Pepsi to Beowulf's Coke. It is. Gilgamesh is the other one Pepsi to Beowulf's Coke. It is. Gilgamesh is the other one where it's like the kids are like, this is boring. And it's like, you don't understand. This is the first fucking story that we ever found written down, you nimwit.

Just enjoy it, nimwit. Also, it's an action story. It's a genre piece. Right. But that's the thing about Beowulf. It's kind of like showing someone Casablanca now and they're like i don't get it this is cheesy like and you're like no no no no it's doing it first like with beowulf you're like yeah sure he's a guy he fights a monster like there's not a lot here and it's like no no no one had ever done this before literally like this is

the first one um so i just it's i just think it is a bigger task than one might imagine, right? To adapt essentially the first story about a guy with a sword fighting a monster. Like, it's hard to flesh it out. Also weird for like one of the oldest existing English texts that there is no definitive Beowulf adaptation. text that there is no definitive beowulf adaptation like it's weird that in 2007 zemeckis making a beowulf movie wasn't treated as oh beowulf again yeah right you know it was just treated as like fine do that okay and i think it speaks to to david's point is that when you when you read not that i have since seventh grade but when you read beowulf or read the wikipedia summary as i did today they're kind

of like there really isn't a story it's like there's a guy beowulf he kills one monster kills another one right it's a third one he drinks mead everyone's drinking me though that's a big detail so i mean the thing is it doesn't really lend itself to adaptations which is why it took right it took roger avery this brilliant aha moment of kind of faking it a little bit and then yeah gaiman sprinkles his minotaur pixie dust on top and you know and then we get we get angelina jolie in the in the in the in the cave it also maybe has a bit of a like john carter uh you know princess of mars problem where it's like it's such a foundational text that like the most popular works in the american canon all sort of

use beowulf as a stepping stone so then when you go back to beowulf you're just like there's less meat on the bone here because everyone's taking the ball and run with it right so i'm watching it with forky and she's ever seen it before no and she's like well that's well that's not in the point you know like she's noticing the thing she's read it she she teaches it she teaches it you fucking kid she's read it like one million times question yes she asked the question and and then i'm like right but like but like, and I have read, I studied Beowulf in college, like all good English literature students from the UK. And like, I swear to God. And, but that's the thing.

It's like the poem doesn't even really clarify if he kills Grendel's mother. Like it's pretty bare, but there's a lot of room to play around with. It doesn't get into anything except that Beowulf is a hero, and he kills the monsters, and then he gets old and he kills more monsters. That's really... And then the

monks got their hands on it and they added some stuff about Jesus. That's what Beowulf is. Right. That was Avery's aha moment by all accounts was oh they never actually make it clear if he kills grendelwald's mother grendelwald jesus christ i've been making grendelwald jokes all day crimes crimes the media won't report on this it's insane his crimes are numerous oh grendelwald yeah. Well, yeah, see, they're right. Finish your point. Never make it clear in the original poem whether or not Grendel's mother is actually defeated.

And Avery said, oh, there's kind of an interesting unreliable narrator thing going on here. There's sort of an implication that he succeeded, but it's never actually made clear what reasons would Beowulf have to cover this up? And then he sort of unpacks this line of sexual misdeeds for which society is punished forever. These life-ruining twists. It's not exactly a feminist film. No. Beowulf is so boring as a written hero that Roger Avery and Gaiman are like, you can't, this guy has to be like hiding shit otherwise like he's just really really boring like we just have to assume that there's there's more going on here

because they can't be a movie if there isn't one also the pride is the curse that was the that was the the tagline the hopkins character the king in in the poem is never under threat from Grendel. Grendel never even tries to attack him. And they were like, there's something weird going on there, too. And there was this thought, because the text was then sort of finally committed to paper by these monks, that, like, perhaps this story was in an oral tradition and then got sanitized. Got fussed with a little bit. Right, these men of the cloth took some shit out of it.

So this is like... Edited for television. Right, this isn't your Bibles, Beowulf, you know? I keep on wanting to say Grindelwald. Grindelwald, he could show up in here. You never know. Is Roger Every in jail by the time this comes out? When did he go to jail?

I think right after. No, 2008. Yeah, right after. Right after. Yeah, he went into the rock going like, hey man, I made Beowulf, nothing can touch me. Yeah, he's out now.. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. He went into the rock going like, Hey man, I made bail. If none could touch me.

Yeah. He's out now. He made a movie. Lucky day. If you say so. That's what it's called. That's what it's called. I'm just saying,

you know, what's funny is the animation style, um, with the actors, you know, we talked about Mr. Zemeckis, his wife,

and obviously Angie and, and, and, and, and, uh and uh hopkins um ray winstone does not look like that like everybody kind of looks it's interesting everybody kind of everyone looks like themselves brendan gleason looks like himself malkovich looks like himself um uh ray winstone is a is a is a man who who uh you know who who likes his weed epics or whatever it was from earlier he's a he's a hefty gentleman but they make this look um like he's you know totally cut and what what's funny is that the other big thing that was happening in 2007

and it's a very important movie in comparison to Beowulf, and it's a lesser film, is a masterpiece by a film director named Zack Snyder. It's a movie called 300. And 300 is a complicated film that opens a door to a big discussion. I don't know how much of that we want to get into. I think we got it. It's not a masterpiece, but I know this is your opinion. I really think that 300 is an important film. It turns the page

on a lot of things that's different yeah see i i don't like it and i would not even begin to argue anything other than it being one of the most important films of that decade okay fair enough it's very it's very very important because it has all the things the visual things that it has and this movie has its own visual shtick it's doing, which is much, much worse. But more weird and fun things happen in Beowulf than in 300. Definitely. 300 is really boring. I remember that being my biggest beef with it. It was weirdly dull for a movie about constant war and violence and kicking people into big holes and all that

you know i i i mean okay i'm not gonna argue that but i i disagree but i i i definitely think that you could say that it's uh you know affected film grammar and the technology and the look and all that stuff but there are connections this is you know, 300 had the line, this is Sparta, right? There were t-shirts with that. And clearly, well, I don't think this movie, this was a Newton-Leibniz thing

because they were, they came out the same year. So Beowulf did not copy off of 300, but the marketing of Beowulf wanted to make the line, I am Beowulf. That autumn, 300 came out in march and the kids were running around saying this is this is sparta that the kids were saying and i saw them and then

i did do you want to know how i saw them yeah i would in march of 2007 my job was as and this i thought that was going to be a rhetorical no No, no, no. This leads to, uh, this leads to my big story later, but in March of 2007, I worked as a licensed New York city tour guide. That was how I made wages. And that was what I did. Uh, and I liked the job. There was no money in it. So I eventually quit, but I took school kids around and I did the double-decker buses and i yapped about historical spots in new york city and um i took a bunch of canadian school kids to friggin statue liberty in ellis island right on the boat you know you do the circuit and uh they went to the statue they went upstairs they look around and then we got to wait for the next ferry and we're killing time and these are like 13 14 year old kids um and it was it was march there

was like dead branches on the ground so a bunch of the kids are taking the dead branches and they're hitting each other as they do and they're screaming this is sparta and i'm like what okay a little little tommy little little uh well they were they were canadian so little uh little jacques you know little uh little francois what why are you shouting about sparta what what are you talking about and they're like you haven't seen 300 yet and i'm like no i haven't seen it what is it they go it's it's the best movie i've ever seen and the whole school agreed the kids were loving it and they is it? And they go, it's the best movie I've ever seen. And the whole school agreed. The kids were loving it.

And they were telling me about Sparta. And it worked. And it was a huge hit. Changed popular culture. So clearly they wanted to tap into that with Beowulf. Because it's similar shtick. Swords and magic and all that crap. And 300 absolutely stole this movie's thunder.

Like, I feel like there was a lot of buzz around this movie. If not excitement, people were curious about it when it was announced. And then 300 was such a revolution that this movie couldn't look like anything other than, like, you know, leftovers. And 300 weirdly went into it with, the bolder visual style the visual style that on paper seemed riskier yeah versus this and everyone loved what 300 was doing i say everyone but like the public loved it and this everyone was like it looks creepy yeah exactly it looks yes that's what it is that the uncanny valley but you know it's just so funny so yeah how many times does ray

winstone declare himself to be beowulf in this at least five times yeah a half dozen yeah easy but i need to get back to the point you made of he doesn't look like ray winstone no now ray winstone claims that he kind of looked like this when he was younger i've seen like scum i've seen like the movies ray winstone was in when he was young he didn't look like this when he was younger. I've seen like Scum. I've seen like the movies Ray Winstone was in when he was young. He didn't look like this. Wait, he was in a movie called Scum? Ben, Ben, you would legit love this movie. Do you know what Scum is about?

No, it sounds good. Scum is about a boy, like, you know, he's a young man played by Ray Winstone who goes to a borstal, which is like an old like, fashioned British prison for youths. Like, they're really tough places where, you know, bad

kids would go. I thought you said fashion prison, and I was like going off on a whole thing about what that would be, but old fashion. Okay, continue. You still have that premise. You can put that in your back pocket, Ben. Yeah, I actually will. And it's about him, you know,

he meets like Banks, who's like the current daddy of the prison. You know, like he's the boy who's kind of in charge of shit. And it's about Ray Winstone becoming the daddy. Oh shit, that sounds fucking good. There's like a big fight with like a lead pipe Like it is the most

When you're a kid in Britain Everyone sees that movie because it's like You had me at lead pipe I'm checking it out Oi I got me lead pipe Right and he didn't look like What he looks like it's inescapable In this movie is Sean Bean

He kind of looks To the extent that I had to say to Forky, like, it's not Sean Bean. Like it's actually Ray Winstone. Like, but do you think they, there's no way.

Cause like Zemeckis cast Ray Winstone. He never, there's no, I have a little answer for you. Go ahead. So much like, uh, how on polar express,

there are like four people credited for each part because because like if Hanks is playing one character, then he needs someone else to fill in for that. They had children playing the child parts to get the physical dimensions right, but then also adults playing the child parts, like all these things. There's a lot of doubling on this movie. And so Ray Winstone did do the entire movie. And Zemeckis did say, my intent is to age you down. I want your gravitas, but I want him to look like you at a younger age ripped beyond the point you ever were. Right. But they also got this guy, Alan Richson, who Alan Richson is this guy who was like on the superhero runway for the last 15 years. He played one of the Ninja Turtles, which is why I know him, because I screen tested alongside him. You mean he played in the new Michael Bay produce?

He was one of the mocap Ninja Turtles in the Michael Bay Ninja Turtles. I think he was Raphael. He also was like Aquaman on Smallville, and then now he's on Titans, the DC Universe show. He's one of these guys who just looks like a fucking corn fed, all American football player. And he keeps on getting into these like almost superhero roles. And he hired Richson to be like physical model and to also be like a motion capture reference for someone's

body moving with the right dimensions. I'm seeing him and he kind of looks like a very cheap version of yeah, he looks like Beowulf. It's a mashup. So I think he took some elements of young Winstone, mapped them on to young Richson, used more

of Richson in the action scenes, more of Winstone in the acting scenes. The oratory. Right. Right. I mean, Ray Winstone is a great actor. I love Ray Winstone, to be clear. He's the best.

This is a great time for him where he's suddenly popping up in, like, The Departed, and he's not really changing his accent, and you don't really care, like, even though he's playing a Boston, you know, gangster called Mr. French. Let's go get some Dunkin'. Like, he's such a delight.

He's at what? He's in Crystal Skull, right? That's a year from now, right? Yes, yes. Another one where he's like, yeah, it's me, your friend Mac. Right, you know, like, it's just bananas. I feel like he has now dipped. He was in Cats, though. I will say he was in Cats.

That was, I haven't seen a lot of Ray Winston recently, but he did pop up in Cats. But this was, yes, this was the couple of years. He's kind of good in Cats, right? I think he rules in Cats. This was the couple year run. It tends to happen for, like, a UK character actor.

British character actors. Right. At some point, you hit a couple of years where it's just like, you're going to be one of the go-tos. You're going to have four years of paychecks you won't believe,

and then, like, you'll return to normal and you'll go back to having the kind of career you had. It's like Mark Strong. Mark Strong had that run. He was in everything, and now he's not.

Right. Like, Sexy Beast was kind of like reactivated Ray Winstone in his 40s, and then for five years, Hollywood just was paying him like a million dollars, you have to imagine, for all these movies.

Yes, exactly. So good for him. I'm glad he did it. Sean Bean kind of should play Beowulf. Sean Bean has a northern accent. He has a Yorkshire accent. And like, Beowulf is, you know, he's not... Ray Winstone has a Cockney accent. He has a Yorkshire accent. And like Beowulf is a, you know, he's not. Ray Winston has a Cockney accent.

He sounds like he's from London. Like he is from London. And Beowulf in this movie sounds like a working class Londoner. And he's supposed to be from the land of the geats. He's supposed to be this like freaking, you know, Viking warrior dude. And it's weird. Don't you think that's part of the interpretation and especially zemeckis trying to move it away from feeling like homework

is like we're gonna give beowulf this like football hooligan energy like he's like a fucking rowdy bar dude he's a pub right brawler he had recently played henry king henry the eighth in like a british tv series and I remember that and at the time it was seen as like oh this is weird because like Ray Winstone's not posh you know and he played it very Ray Winstone and apparently Zemeckis had seen that and liked that so that was also so you're right yeah he's probably like right he'll give me he'll he'll he'll bring some gritty street realism to this fucking poem because I think both this and 300 had this similar goal of like,

okay, Gladiator was like seven years ago now. It failed to bring on the new wave of sword and sandal epics that people thought would come. Everyone else who tried to do it afterwards, it didn't click, including the times that Ridley tried to return to the well, right?

But you do have Lord of the Rings, which this is also a draft. Sure, sure. But that's, I think, part of their decision is like, okay, so Lord of the Rings was like fantasy, and then that spawns the sort of like children's book adaptation thing. You have your Aragons and your Narnias. It kind of gets lumped in more with the Potter thing, whereas Gladiator is like, that's like old fashioned adult sword and sandals.

Then the follow ups don't hit. And then I feel like this and 300 in the same year are like, we want to make these fucking movies feel edgy and urgent again. You know, it's like this real appeal to like, how do you make these things feel fucking hardcore? I know how you do it you open the movie with two guys taking a whiz but with their skirts in their mouths because they gotta hold them in their teeth so they don't get their skirts wet while they whiz on the side of the need hall that's like in the opening montage it's a wild movie i mean it just feels like yeah he just wants shit to be happening at all times on screen.

I was so certain in my memory that this movie was R-rated. And I watched on iTunes, I bought the unrated cut, which is like five minutes longer, makes zero changes to story, no added scenes. It's just like five minutes worth of shots that were either you have to imagine cut out at the last second or blood that was removed and it's just like more sexual shit yeah and more blood that sounds good actually honestly it sounds great that sounds fun and super metal yeah it fits in the metal tone but it also i i think that was another goal of this movie is like, Zemeckis at this point was all in on mocap. Like he was saying, I'm going to only make mocap movies for the rest of my life. This is the future. This is the technology. I'm a fully committed to being the guy who like makes this shit break through,

uses my clout to advance the technology so that other filmmakers can use it let me go through all the weird growing pains and b he was like you can do anything in this technology have you have you ever seen behind the scenes footage of beowulf because yes it's um you know they call it the volume right they call it the volume it's like a gymnasium and there's footage of crispin glover as grendel barging into shit and they just have like big foam blocks they're just like go all right and action just destroy these foam blocks and crispin glover who is incredibly committed to this performance in an in a remarkable way and i say this with no sarcasm he's really really good doing whatever the hell it is that he's doing in this i agree with that and the footage the behind the scene footage of

him on having an emotional rampage with these foam blocks is heartbreaking if anybody out there has the beowulf dvd go to those behind the scenes you can watch the whole thing picture in picture on the blu-ray they have an option really where you can watch the whole thing picture in picture on the Blu-ray. They have an option where you can watch the whole movie. I only found this out afterwards. I'm going to fucking buy the Blu-ray now. That's nuts. It costs like $6. But you can watch the whole movie picture in picture.

And the one exception is the Jolie scenes because she blocked that footage. Sure. Good for her. Well, because she was like mad at this movie, it felt like. But like all the actors and Tom Hanks sort of says this too about polar express they like you know compare it to like theater in the round or like brecht or whatever you know what i mean like because they're like unlike a movie where you shoot a quarter of a page or fucking day or whatever you just kind of do it in a week like right you do it really really

fast because they could just do everything else around you. And you're in this empty space. And you don't have to keep stopping and starting. Right. You don't have to fucking like find your light or like play to the lens. Like a big breakthrough with this technology is that like you just capture the performance and then Zemeckis can pick the camera angles later. So you're just focusing on the acting and then he deals with all the other shit so all these actors sign up because they're like this sounds weird and freeing yeah i mean it's great until you look at the final product and they all look terrible i mean that's the only

negative is that it's a it's a bad film i mean who is to say right i mean and listen in x amount of years there's going to be a nostalgia factor for this look, too. I mean, we, you know, it's like us watching a B movie from the 50s where you can see the strings on Gamera and it's cute, you know. So people are going to look at John Malkovich's dead eyes and chuckle over it. You know, right now we're still close enough to where it makes us gross. Book reports from years to come. This is going to be it. This is going reports from years to come this is gonna be it this is gonna be the text honestly truly so the book reports will be like it's so great how beowulf fights grendel naked and it's he's just gonna be like uh he watched the fucking movies like i just find it so funny that like most times that a classic is adapted into a hollywood film they just cut a

bunch of the weird shit out and so like you're the the mistake a kid like me who watched the movie and didn't read the book would make in my report is like you leave out large swaths of scenes right that were cut out of the film or you you saw the one with the happy ending and this is like no they put in all this weird shit uh but i feel like this was a big like i don't want to get into this too much but steve bing who is this very very weird uh millionaire we can't get into sleeping that's a it's a whole episode it's so fucking i mean i'll let people go down their fucking rabbit hole but just to say very quickly he inherited 600 million dollars from his grandfather who was like a real estate mogul and then was like i'm gonna be like

the fucking howard hughes of the film industry and he started this company shangri-la films and his first big big investment was he put up 90 million dollars of polar express's budget no one wanted to make polar express no one wanted to give him the money he wanted so being he put up $90 million of Polar Express's budget. No one wanted to make Polar Express. No one wanted to give him the money he wanted. So Bing independently put up more than half of the budget. And people were like, you're insane. You're going to lose your entire fortune.

And then Polar Express was so huge. So he felt vindicated. And he kind of never had a hit movie ever again. But he immediately afterwards was like, Bobby, let's do it again. Let's fucking do it. Let's do another one. What scripts do you want to do? And Zemeckis was like, there was this Beowulf script from years ago that I was going to produce. He's like, sounds good. I'll buy it. Two million dollars, like paid Avery and Gaiman two million dollars after they had already been paid previously and had their rights lapsed. But I think a big part of it was, and it was independently financed,

and then they sold it to Paramount. Columbia thought they had this movie on a handshake deal for years, and then he was like, never mind, Paramount offered more money. But this is pretty much being bankrolled, and I think the big thing was, Zemeckis was like,

I want to prove, because I'm so committed to making mo-cap movies forever, that these aren't animated films and they're not for kids like I want to do the one that's an action film that's intense that's bloody and sexual because I want to move this shit out of the cartoon ghetto and uh it's interesting that even though this movie was kind of a flop it was like I feel the most successful attempt at adult animation, like pure adult animation.

In America with this kind of budget, for sure. Yeah, 100%. And no one tried it ever again. Like it's an absolute dead end. It's as dead as Malkovich's eyes in this film. Yeah, it's a fascinating film. It's a Sui generis thing. There's nothing else quite like Zemeckis' Beowulf.

And a lot of it is- After this, he goes back to Christmas. He's just like, fuck it, I'll do Scrooge. It's a weird cul-de-sac. And another aspect that I think I just alluded to in a moment ago, one of the things I really, really am moved by emotionally is Crispin Glover's performance as the world's most upset neighbor

at the rowdy party next door uh grendel who uh can't handle it that there's fun at the at the beer hall at the meat hall and he wasn't invited and um murmuring in old english And his mother has a Russian accent for some reason. And he's so upsetting in this film. He's really, I don't know. How would you describe his performance? Is it sadness? Is it, what is he doing? It's got a QAnon kind of vibe to it.

Sort of 4chan-y, 8chan adjacent. Yeah, edgelord kind of vibe. But I also think it's telling that it's like his performance holds up the best, no question. Yes. And his character overall holds up the best because it's the one that is like leaning into abstraction. Yeah, he looks like a monster.

Not trying to represent the real world because that's the other totally like quixotic aspect of this mocap era for Zemeckis is his like sort of like slavish devotion to I want them to look like the movie stars you know like there's something about

like the corner turned where you're like Josh Brolin is Thanos and everyone just knows it's Brolin and we maybe try to make his eyes look a little bit like Josh Brolin but you let him look like some other fucking thing right but it's Brolin and we maybe try to make his eyes look a little bit like Josh Brolin, but you let him look like some other fucking thing. Right, but it's not too difficult. Right. Right, yeah.

I mean, look, I think it's partly just getting the tech there too. Like, it's not just that I want Tom Hanks to look like Tom Hanks. I want to see if we can make it look like Tom Hanks, right? Like, there's a challenge in it too. Totally. So much of this is R&D, but there's that uncanny valley that's harder to cross when you're like, I know what fucking Malkovich looks like. Whereas with Grendel,

you can spend more time thinking about what Glover is contributing. And in a weird way, you see his performance more clearly because you're not hung up on like, that's not quite what his cheekbones look like. Similarly, I think Winstone holds up the second best because it's also, like, its own weird model. It's not, it's its own visual creation. Right, right, it's a good point. You have the monsters and Winstone because he's not a real human.

He's a fake human, you know, a composite character. They're louder, bombastic performances built on actual just cartoon models that people can puppeteer. And it makes you wonder if this movie would age better if they were just like, let's stylize it more and not worry about looking like the people. Yeah, like the close-ups on Grendel work, and they're the only close-ups on a face that work in this film. So I'll tell you a quick story about Crispin Glover in this movie. Now, I mentioned earlier that when 300 came out in March of 2007, I was working as a New York City tour guide. And then I left that job. And by the time this movie came out, I had a new position.

I was working in a very weird roundabout way. I ended up working at a website that doesn't exist anymore called UGO.com. UGO. I remember. UGO was the Pepsi to IGN's Coke, right? They were around for a long time and they were competitors. That's the second time I've used that analogy tonight. I use that one a lot. You got to go for five.

Five more times? I try to use five five five more time i try to use it okay i'll try to okay so five in total yeah yeah or five alive is it is like the five alive to minute mate i could do that oh boy all right keep going keep going jordan keep going all right so uh yeah so dig this dig this dig this i'm at this new job and i don't know what the hell i'm doing and i just started and uh they're promoting beowulf right and um i had done a few interviews with celebrities before um for this job but nobody too big you know literally one of them was peewee harman um so paul rubens yeah that's cool uh yeah great girls um now i do interviews three times a week but back then i didn't know what the hell i was doing

so i get a phone i'm doing a phone call interview with crispin glover right and um i'm trying to you know he's crispin glover you know you know he's a little weird right you know he's had he's had some issues over his career his life he flipped out on the letterman show he's been known to kick himself in the head during interviews. I mean, you're in a dangerous position. I've been nervous having the conversation with him. So, like, you know, he gets on the phone. Hello. I can't do his voice.

He's like, hello, I'm Chris McGlover. I'm like, hey, man, how you doing? Yeah, just want to say I'm a big fan of your work, blah, blah, blah. I try to butter him up a little bit. I'm like, now, you know that Chris McGlover has directed a handful of films. I don't know. I've seen at least one of them. Okay.

So one of them, I forget the name right now. Is this It? Is that the one? That's the biggie. Is this It? And then there's another one called... That's the one I've seen. There's one called It's Fine, Everyone is Fine or something like that.

Right. I maybe have seen both. So I said to him once, oh, you know, I'm a fan of your work and i've uh i've uh you know i've i've seen your films and he's like oh yeah where did you see i'm like oh you know i live here in new york and he goes yeah which which theater did you see it at so here's the deal um when these movies came out um i knew uh you know over the course of life, I've known some people in the film industry. And, you know, like I know you, everybody listening. So as it happens, I had a guy.

I knew a guy. I haven't talked to him in years. He got everything. He got Phantom Menace on a tape three days after it came out. You know, and I don't mean like Kramer style, someone with a camera. Yeah, he somehow had it. I didn't want to watch it because I hadn't seen Phantom Menace yet. Like, no, I'm going to the kitchen. I don't mean like like uh kramer style someone with a camera yeah he somehow had it and i didn't want to watch it because i hadn't seen phantom menace yet like no i'm going in the kitchen i don't want to see this so this dude mystery man x had this screwy christian

glover movie and we watched it you know we had a few glasses of mead so i was a little you know a little heavy but we we watched it and the is, when Glover shows these films, you know, he does like a live performance. He travels with the films. He does slideshow projection. He's, there's a live. There's like two feature films. It's, what is it?

And this is fine. Everything is fine. Is it fine? Everything is fine. And he's got like one print of each film and he brings them city to city and hosts them and reads poetry it's it's very much a one-man show yeah i didn't see that so i saw a tape so i'm like oh you know i i saw i'm like an

idiot like a freaking idiot this was 13 years ago so i absolved myself and i was new with the job that i had no business being at now i'm a professional again i write for very esteemed publications at the time i didn't know what the hell i was doing so i'm like oh i saw it at friend's house he goes what he's crispin glover grendel in this film he's so good he's so good as grendel i said i saw my buddy uh you know he had a tape what you what is this person's name i'm like oh yeah i'm like this is some guy that I know. So let's talk about the film. He's like, I need to know this name because I am in conversation with the FBI. And the FBI and I speak, and we need to stop these tapes circulating. So this guy's in the industry. I mean, he's not like a big producer, but he was involved in the production of some very high-level...

He directed the motion picture Avatar. We can't say his name. No, no. He's nobody anybody's heard of, but he's made some stuff, mostly TV commercials. What he did was he did TV commercials with big directors. He produced a bunch of TV commercials that never went in the air. Jordan, stop leaving breadcrumbs.

Oh, yeah. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Bleep that out. Bleep that out. I'm like, all right, you know, I'm like, I can't remember his name. I was at a party, you know, and it was on,

and he will not let it go. He will not let it go. I'm like, all right, I really want to talk about your performance in, I'm sweating now. I'm flop sweating. I'm like, I'm like a mess because I'm new at this job.

I'm like, I really want to talk about your performance as grendel it's so vivid it's so uh he's like no we must talk about i i need to know this name will you email me this name i have to know right now and he starts screaming at me like it's not fun he's fucking livid and uh i just say you know i really don't remember his name. It was a friend of a friend. I'm so sorry. I had no idea. You know, I recognize now that this is a, you know,

taking money out of your pocket. Because he never released these movies on home video. They've never been available on streaming. The only way to see them is the screenings that he himself organizes and is in person for. So when he asked you what theater did you see it at? He probably could have asked which Showtime as a follow-up.

And he would have remembered vividly. Like these films, he makes Hollywood films in order to finance these movies. It took a decade for each one. And he's like slowly making back millions of dollars. Yeah.

One, the four-walled screening at a time. So I feel bad. So he thinks that I'm looking at a can, but I don't know what the hell. I don't remember. Like I said, I was-walled screening at a time. So I feel bad. So he thinks that I'm looking at a cam, but I don't know what the hell. I don't remember. Like I said, I was drinking a lot of meat that night. Who remembers? All I know is that the interview does not go well. Okay?

It does not go well. We didn't run anything, and I had to go and tell my new boss what just happened. So I'm like, we got to go into a room. I'm like, you know how I told you that on Friday we were going to publish an interview with Crispin Glover? Well, it's not happening. Why? Because he just screamed at me about this thing. It became an FBI investigation. Luckily, my boss thought it was hilarious. And we considered running the freak out. And then we're like, you know what? That's a little much. Let's not run the freak out and then we're like you know what that's

a little much let's not run the freak out let's just pretend it never happened right so um that's my one encounter with crispin glover who is certainly very dedicated to his craft grendel he went grendel yeah i was hrothgar i was a quivering hrothgar and i needed a beowulf to come in and save me uh i i had several different people feed me similar scoops in anticipation of this episode. Once our Back to the Future episodes come out, and we obviously spent arguably too much time talking about the Glover-Zemeckis-Gale divide. Because it was kind of a big story that Glover was going to be in this movie. Especially after he had been involved in this big lawsuit with Zemeckis and Gale. And the thing I heard mirrored by many people is that the root of the sort of Glover fallout from Back to the Future is just that Robert Zemeckis is obviously a perfectionist and a very controlling, detail-obsessed filmmaker.

And Crispin Glover is on his own wavelength and never wants to do the same thing twice. So with these very complicated Zemeckis shot setups, he could never get continuity right. And it drove him crazy and he didn't want to deal with him. So he would send Gale to be the bad cop, which means that Glover always resented Gale more than Zemeckis. So it was when they got to this movie and Zemeckis went like, well, we're still kind of on good terms all considering. And also, if it's in motion capture, none of my problems with Glover apply anymore. Right. I can use whatever I want. Right. I just need him acting. Put up a bunch of foam things.

There don't even need to be other actors on set like this guy you could just wind him up and he'll start crying and knocking down walls and we'll just have the raw data and i can make my shot choices later and the performance is kind of a revelation in that way like you're just like man this is just raw feed glover and like you know the last time you feel like you really got a showcase like this to just go for it yeah I would imagine what do you when Zemeckis had the idea to bring Glover back there had

have been someone in his circle being like are you nuts like how after all the trouble this guy's brought you and just the state of him in general like somebody would have had to said do you really want to do that because but but like what i went to that screening of his two movies with poetry in between and he talked about that like he thinks

the film industry is morally bankrupt but he has to make studio films in order to slowly amount the uh uh budget for his next movie like that's his So, A, I think you offer him enough money, he'll do almost anything. Because he's like, this is money laundering for me to make my real art. And secondly, I think Zemeckis was able to say to them, like, no other actors on set, we can get all of his shit done in a day.

Like, it's so low risk to us. Right, right. But also, like, somebody would have said, like, could other people have done this role? I mean, sure, but other people have done this role? I mean, sure. But he's really good, right? I mean.

He's really good. He's the right choice, right? Like, inarguably. It's cool. I also, it just kind of warms my heart that Zemeckis, the, you know, CGI techno nerd, finds a way to kind of offer an olive branch to Crispin Glover through this ridiculous technology. You know what I mean? He's like, I found a way for us to work together

where we're not going to get on each other's nerves. And you'll make a good performance. And yeah, exactly. And also, like, I recognize your skill. Like, we had our fucking problems, but no one can deny

he's great in Back to the Future, and he is, like, the best choice for this. He's very compelling. He's very compelling, and all that vulnerability. I mean, I don't think any other actor would have brought this level of empathy to the character. No, it would have been just another CGI monster. Like, it would have been nothing.

Yes, I would say I enjoy the movie Beowulf. I enjoy all of its nonsense But I would say the first chunk The Grendel chunk Is the best chunk Would you agree? It does have the most Mead chugging

And horny Hrothgar You kind of have to get past that But just like Grendel is just Frightening And unpredictable In a way that kind of have to get past that but just like grendel is just frightening and uh like you know unpredictable in a way that the the dragon isn't later right you know like the joly scene is much hyped but it's very short like it's actually not you know this is the problem this is a big problem with the movie is that it is lopsided the coolest stuff happens in the first 20 minutes and then you know the big ending is cool,

but the big ending is not as good as the beginning. And also, there's this really fascinating sort of like study and contrast where the movie is so maximalist from the beginning, right? It starts with Alan Silvestri

just fucking shredding, right? He's shredding. And all these logos like fucking slamming you in the face in fire. And then you go to the Mead Hall, and it's just, like, cacophony of noise, of dancing, of violence, of leering. Like, a lot of the shit— They wake up Grendel.

They hurt his little ears. Right. But they give you, like, eight straight minutes of just debauchery, of just like you know animal house shit it's like emir costa rica's the 3d uh computer generated film you know it's like underground but in thanes and danes it's great i think the majority of the added footage for the unrated cut is just in this opening like they add in like a lot more groping and shit. But it's just so loud. It's so noisy. He's doing all these wild camera moves.

You also can tell he's getting off on, like, oh, I don't have to actually light this thing. I can make it be lit by candlelight without having to do, like, these insane Barry Lyndon sort of, like, jumping jacks and backflips to figure out how to make this work with new lenses. You can just make something look really dank and murky and it's fine. It's

animation. You're in control of it. And he's got the camera up in the rafters. He also doesn't really bother to give you much geography of the Mead Hall. It's just a big rectangle and in the back there's bedrooms. But like you don't really know where. Well this is the other really fascinating thing about the opening of the movie is for how much it's like bombarding you with shit. It's also kind of a chamber piece. Like the first half

of the movie mostly takes place in the Mead Hall. You very rarely leave the Mead Hall. And there's something kind of nice of like, oh in a way this could be a play the action is so largely centered they're almost so much right yes yeah and the poem is really like that too it's a lot of like let's explain how this works everyone comes to the mead hall we all drink we all sing songs this is who This is, you know, it's a lot of that. It's just a lot of like when the world is so dark and cold and there's fucking nothing out there.

Right. Like, you know, what are you going to live on some snowy mountain starving to death? No, everyone should just be together in one big room eating meat. Like, here's the here's the OK. Here's the question I had. What job do you want In this time Forky and I were discussing this You don't want to be fucking fighting

Because then you're going to die You don't want to row a boat That's hard right What's a job where you can kind of keep to yourself Stick to the mead hall Oh I know the answer The answer is you want to be somehow involved In mead production

Oh Everybody will love you You want to be somehow involved in Mead production Oh Everybody will love you You want to be the Mead man Mead Smith Either the making of it Or the bottling of it or the delivery This was our You need to have a skill that is not

Easily Like blacksmith I would make metal music like I would be in a metal band that's what I would do you'd be like a chain singer had a court jester's

gone out of fashion at this point in time would there be an angle for me to work there there is but here's my only concern about being an entertainer right being a singer or a fool or whatever. You're really at the whim of a drunk guy. Like, he might be, you know, you just, one false move and he's like, fucking kill that guy.

I'm sick of him. Right. You're never, you don't get to bomb twice. You got one bad show in you. Like, tough crowd. Yeah, tough crowd. That's why I was like, yeah, if you're a blacksmith, it's like, you know, there's not like, the world is not lousy with blacksmiths, I would assume, right?

And also, you're just doing the same, like, the same crowd. You're performing for the same crowd over and over again. You just got to constantly be generating new material. Tough, tough. You know, no opener. Like, you got to warm the crowd up yourself, then get to your A-level shit. Right. And then they could be like, you, then get to your a level shit. Right. And then they could be like,

you were better last week with the same song. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So, so the plot of Beowulf, which we've been sort of going through, it was Grendel attacks and he doesn't attack Hrothgar.

Can I say my favorite moment in the entire movie? What I think is the high point of the entire film. Yes. So like cacophony, debauchery, tits, right then you're you're up in the rafters and the cross beams you land on what is it that bird that takes the rat you have the rat stealing the meat and then there's sort of the bird that grabs the rat and then you follow the bird out of the mead hall and the further further you get as you fly, you're tracking backwards in the sky with the bird.

It's the contact shot. It's the same shot as contact. It's the contact shot. Yeah. It's the contact shot, which most Zemeckis movies start with the really long tracking shot where he sets up the environment and gives you the story details. Contact does that with zooming out and letting you know this film takes place in the universe.

This movie starts in the tight place, lots of fast cuts, all this sort of shit, and then this is like the big sort of like establishing shot where you just go further and further back and you get further away from the noise until all that cacophony is just so distant.

But also, as you said, David, you're underlying the fact where it's like, this is just this one fucking castle in the middle of snowy nowhere. Like this has felt so exciting and vital. And now you're just like, man, this world sucks. There's like nothing here. And you keep on pulling further and further and further back until it's like silent, like drop silent and he's if you feel like it's eerie like why is he deflated the balloon this much and then you finally land back in the cave with grendel who is just screaming in agony because the noise is too loud for him and that's like the whole movie just perfectly encapsulated like everything he wants to do here

told entirely visually and it sets up like we get it we get it like here's grendel's a sympathetic character as you said he's the neighbor who like these fucking kids won't stop partying it's such an amazing reframing of him right but i mean he he's very you can he's very mutable like you could do so much with grendel even in the poem right like he's the outcast he's like our sins i mean like the christian retelling right he's kind of like you know he's the pay he's rejected god or whatever you know like that's why grendel rules and grendel's mother i mean grendel's mother is is it's just a great concept for a monster like that's why it's always such a bummer i always always forget the Beowulf ends with a dragon.

I have no beef with dragons, to be clear. But dragons are fine. Dragons fucking rule, David. How dare you? All right, fine. Maybe I should be more pro-dragon. It's just like I've seen a dragon. I've never seen a Grendel.

Have you seen a dragon really, though? Yeah, he told us. He grew up in England. Yeah, right. They're lousy. There'll be dragons dragons it's a kingdom over there yes um so grendel comes he smashes there's the blue flame that's very cool he like comes in and out of the blue flame and the way he triangulates the ripping of his arm off by

using the poles and the chain and the wheel. It's very, very athletic. This movie is so violent. And there's so much nudity. You never see his wang, but it's blocked. The Austin Powers fight. He does a full Austin Powers fight. Right. So Beowulf shows up. He tells you who he is. He talks about how he beat

a guy in a big race. All that stuff. He's like, I'll take down your guy and I'll do it naked because that's a fair fight i guess like that's the concept we're even yeah can we talk about the race though because and i don't know if it's in the poem uh he loses the race the race is in the he loses the race because he gets the hots for a mermaid and this is the recurring theme in this very not woke movie like he's horny like women will ruin you in this movie his dick keeps getting him into trouble he should never trust a dame his dick gets every all dicks get into trouble all dogs go to heaven and all dicks get in trouble yeah it's like this movie is just like he's like very anti woman.

I think there's no there's no twist at the end where the woman helps save the day. I mean, you have four female characters. One of them is defined by her giant pendulous breasts. I mean, Beowulf, the poem is not giving you a ton to work with. No, but I'm just to be a little. I mean, if I may, and I'm sure we all agree, cause we're all very progressive men on this show. I think that if you're going to make adjustments to the script, as they did make tremendous adjustments, somebody at some point should have said,

Hey guys, there's no, all women do here are either evil witches or they're there to screw. There's the wife. This is true. There's the, there's the, the mistress and the wife and the mistress are cool with each other. Alison Lohman. There's the wife. This is true. There's the mistress, and the wife and the mistress

are cool with each other. Alison Lohman. Alison Lohman. That's the failing of the movie from that angle. There could have been a twist, at least a little something, a little nod at the end where Robin Wright or Alison Lohman could have at least thrown a rock

at the friggin' dragon to help out instead of just cowering and then being saved. And then the last line is, attend the bride, attend the queen. It's not... All the having sex with the witch stuff is not good either.

Well, I mean, at least she's active. She's active. Yes, it's like... And Angelina Jolie, as we said we would mention, she was told she's right yes it's like and and d'angelina jolie as we said we would mention she she was told she'd look like she said she was told she'd look like a lizard right like that she would have like some kind of reptilian form what you see in the reflection right and literally she filmed this over two days like it's not like she gave a ton of her time to this movie and then she sees the movie and she's like,

I'm just naked? That's like, I just look like Angelina Jolie and I'm naked? That's what you came up with for me? So clearly, she pretty much expressed her unhappiness, right? Yes. She said that was not... She said she felt exposed. Absolutely. And this is the other thing I wanted

to bring up. Much like Alan Richson being sort of the secret physical model, they hired a supermodel to be the body double who I think they scanned physically and modeled. I mean it's Jolie's performance, but they digitally rendered this other woman's presumably naked or scantily clad body. I just thought they used Frank Frazetta paintings. I mean it just looks, you know, just remarkable. It's ludicrous. paintings i mean it just looks you know just remarkable it's i mean i will say as i said in late 2007 i was working at this digital media company and able to track the metrics our gallery of pictures of angelina jolie from beowulf was like our number one story for a month

so i mean i i remember the audience being pin drop silent a Friday night opening IMAX screening. And it felt like, once again, this sort of like the edginess of this movie trying to be like, look, it's not for kids. It's not for kids. It feels like that is still, her rising out of the water

is still the single most photorealistic shot in the movie. And it feels like they put so much energy into that because he was like, people have to get horny when they see this. I'm trying to prove a point here. This isn't a fucking tune. They have to get boners when they see her pop out of the water. It's so funny because Brendan Gleeson

looks like shit in this movie, but she looks so amazingly good. They really put a lot of attention into her. To support the Joe Lee sentiment, I'm going to send you guys the link. A microscopic merchandise spotlight. The action figure of Grendel's mother is the lizard form.

They made an action figure that was sold in stores that looks like the lizard form that you never see fully in the movie. So I fully believe they intended, they weren't just lying to her, that at some late point they decided to go full cheesecake TNA. That's wrong. I mean, I feel like Jolie could have sued, right?

But, you know, you're not going to sue Zemeckis. I mean, but she was exploited. If she went, you know, at what point did they tell her? Did they tell her opening night? Or did they, I mean. She says she went to the movie and was like, I not know this is what it was when she saw it for the first time i don't know if it was the premiere or an early screening but she said like she saw it and did not know that's what it was gonna look like i'm gonna say that's fucked up i'm gonna

say that that's that's uh i do not approve and that is not righteous yeah it's like what you say Ben it's like the weird moral of like she seduces him but like I get again if you read Beowulf you're trying to find some tension you're trying to find like flaws in the hero and

so Grendel's mother's sort of mysterious aspects like that it makes sense it's like yeah there has to be more going on with this woman right like you know but like this is the thing about beowulf where i'm like i kind of like how berserk it is and how silly and how like swing for the fan like how high energy but also at the same i can't deny like it's kind of fucking like stupid it's shit like dumb is a bunch of fucking rocks how is this the original story how have we've continued to propagate the sleazy little king's assistant how is that still a thing that character sucks i always hate that character you always hate

that guy who's like yeah i hate that guy i always know that guy sucks's like, oh, I hated Misa. I always know that guy sucks. It's never tricked me. All right, well, what about the trusty friend of your hero character who is arguably more honorable and reliable than the guy himself? Well, that's a good character. If he has a beard braid and he's, what's the actor's name? Brendan Gleeson. Brendan Gleeson. If he's Brendan Gleeson and he's got a beard braid, then I feel Brendan Gleeson. Brendan Gleeson. If he's Brendan Gleeson

and he's got a beard braid, then I feel good about it. But then how does the movie end? Oh, now his dick's gonna get him into trouble too. These damn dicks getting us all into trouble. I think he's resisting.

The last shot. This movie has a great last shot because you don't know. It does. That's what I like. This movie's good. Beowulf is good. This movie is good.

I can't get over it. Beowulf looks like shit. It's so, it hurts your eyes to watch. It's such garbage. But it's a good movie. I don't understand. It's good by a hair. It's like, it defies logic.

It's somehow, and you're like, it's disqualified, right? It's automatically disqualified. It's not a real movie. The judges come in and they're like, I don't know what to tell you. It got a bronze medal. Somehow, it got a bronze. They're like, I don't know what to tell you. I got a bronze medal. Somehow they got a bronze. They're like, but I saw it. They didn't finish.

Right. Right. They fell. They fell. I watched them fall. They fell into the fucking lake. I was like, yeah, I know. They never even got on the balance beam.

They stayed in the locker room. The Last Chance movie is really smart. You think at first, just to fast forward, so Angelina Jolie, she's the sex witch. She's Eve. She's, you know, she's all these. Right. He goes to kill her and she essentially seduces him

and promises him power in exchange for not killing her. And they fuck, right? Oh, they fuck. Okay. Yeah. With huntingonting hey by the way you mentioned unfurth this the the you know the grim of worm tongue the evil kind of swarmy guy yes malkovich malkovich gives beowulf his sword fronting and it's like fronting will help you and then fronting is no good as a sword in you know it can't defeat

and in the in the in the book or in the poem he finds another sword that works they left that sword out and the horn is not in the book in the story either that's made up for the movie but my point is scholars for a thousand years have been arguing was unfurth's bestowal of hunting meant in good faith or in bad faith? And the movie does not answer the question because Malkovich is a good actor. You wouldn't know it because he looks like a PS2 cutscene, but he's doing good things and it's ambiguous.

But the implication is he used that sword to kill his siblings, right? Yes. So there's also this curse. And he also laid with his mother and whatnot. It's a whole thing. He also got four stars in Grand Theft Auto. So it's hard to tell really what's going on. Right.

He didn't go full platinum, but he got a gold trophy. He got a bunch of gold trophies. Right, right. He has defeated the Rainbow Road. That is true. Right. But they're laying in this sort of unreliable narrator aspect of Beowulf where like he only manages to sever Grendel's arm in the door and then immediately goes like, I killed him. I killed him. I killed him.

Everyone celebrates him. And then he's like, I got to do due diligence. Go to the cave. Kind of make sure this dude. Right. Right. You're talking about Malkovich now. Yeah.

Yes. Right. Yeah. Yes, right. Yeah. But so what's fascinating to me is, well, first of all, the sword is named Krunting. I mean, that just gets me hard right there. I mean, so Krunting,

is it the best sword? Is it the worst? Like, did he send, did Ulfgar or whatever his name is, Malkovich, did he send him off with a defective sword on purpose to try to get him killed?

Or was he on the level? He's like, you are now my new God. I love you. Here's my best sword. And we'll never know. And the movie leans into this and it's like that and the last shot of Gleason is like there are these ambiguous things in this film

that on one side you would think is just made for the 300 crowd. There's not a lot of subtlety in 300. 300 does not lend itself to discussion. Whereas this, you actually don't know. I like, hunting sounds like a deep, like a fifth page deli menu item. Oh yeah, you don't want stuffed derma here. You want the hunting.

You want the hunting with a side of cashew. Yeah, yeah. The hunting is good. I like it with horseradish. Yeah. So, the implication is, it's not the implication,

we know, it's like, he gets, in the poem, Beowulf grows old and eventually kills a dragon and that's what kills him and that's it.

There's no implication of where the dragon came from or anything like that. He just gets old. Yeah. But in this, he gets old because he lays with

Grendel's mother. Yeah. And she eventually gives birth to a dragon who's really a golden man who looks like Grey Windstone and is essentially like his sin coming to like claim his life, right? Yeah, and Grendel is Hrothgar's son.

Yes, correct. Hrothgar, right. Grendel being hrothgar's son yes correct hrothgar right grendel being hrothgar's version of that yes i mean here's my thing i kind of agree with you guys where i'm just like in theory dragons are cool but i never actually get that excited about a dragon and and it just feels a little deflated especially because grendel and grendel's mother have so much personality that the second it becomes a dragon i'm just kind of like well now it's just going to be a big fighty fight yeah i feel like they could have done it i mean dragons are great i dig a dragon but like it could have been a nazgul or something right right or a ringwraith. It could have been a weirder winged beast. It's very hard to map a motion

onto this dragon. It looks cool, but it kind of deflates the emotional stakes of this is Beowulf fighting his son. Because it's so inhuman. But then again, he flies around and they're on it and it's bright, kind of yellowish-orange against the

gray. They're all gold. And the snow and the gray and the snow and it looks nice but it looks good but it looks good and zemeckis having fun doing this like giant fight that he could never pull off yeah but you're but it is um compared to the other two antagonists it is uh it's it's the bronze medal that's a to go back it's also telling that like when zemeckis came in with his rewrite note to avery and gaiman and said like make it as big as you possibly can this was the main thing that was changed because in the script thinking they were going to make a 20 million dollar movie it was supposed to be a conversation they had a long conversation and then there was one final killing stroke.

And they were like, make it the most fucking knockout, drag out, he's got him in his talons, he's flying him around the ocean sort of fight. And it does feel a little perfunctory in that way. It's just scale and scope for the sake of it.

Yeah, it's weird. And also, it's like, at this point, you've been watching this CG for so long, you're kind of exhausted. Yeah. It's weird. And also, it's like at this point, you've been watching this CG for so long, you're kind of exhausted. A little bit. Yeah. If the movie lasted another 10 minutes, it would have been like enough already.

I can't take it. The movie should be a tight 90. It's two hours long. The movie's too long. I think it would work better if it was really just like half an hour an act. All action, all pendulous boobs, all nonsense. Just total fucking heavy metal nonsense.

It spends a little too long on, I guess, chatting. I'm trying to think of where the sag is. But yeah, it's those sort of like where they's they're fighting in the meat hall and so i don't care i i think definitely the like the 10 minutes after the time jump with like winstone and allison loman is just like the air letting out and then yeah there's the frisian the frisian hordes are coming i am fife the frisian and i'm yeah could have cut that guy out that's that that was a tom bombadil waiting to happen let's get rid of that guy you know i mean but it is one of those things where like the movie by the skin of its teeth i guess is good for all of its baggage for all of

its moral and ethical issues in the making of the movie is it rules except for all of the fatal errors as you say right you know it's basically it a zero, but it also rules, I guess. But it's also one of those things where you're like, if they did a remaster of this, shaved 20 minutes off of it, 15 minutes off of it, and made it look less creepy, like pushed it into a more stylized realm, if it looked more painterly and less photorealistic with the advancements we have, you'd be like, yeah, that thing's like a hard seven. Yeah.

It's like a 7.5. If you somehow were able to do this live action obviously you couldn't do all of these shots the camera doing cartwheels is just through the roof but uh literally uh but if you somehow did it live action with the same script it would would be incredible. It would just be incredible. Beowulf? Yeah. He could also... I need to know who he is. I was really confused. You know, he says, I am Beowulf a lot,

but there's one moment where he's eaten by a sea serpent and he comes out through the eye of the sea serpent. How can you be... And he goes like... No, he doesn't even say, I am Beowulf.

He just says, Beowulf. I know. He just pronounces he doesn't even say I am Beowulf He just says Beowulf He just pronounces his name Beowulf! I mean, if I'm ever eaten by a sea serpent And then I come out through the eye I'll say my name You know, that's the problem How can I be mad at a movie where the thing you just described happens

And Ray Winstone plays Beowulf? That's the problem Yeah, you kind of can't Ben, come on Ben, you like the chains this movie is is ben friendly in many ways just in terms of the silliness i would say well i mean it's it's so close to homework it's close i know right right so that's just it's trash which i honestly love like i brought up before we started recording this movie isn't the tradition uh you know that

would then lead to warcraft right another bad movie that i actually kind of love yeah oh yes of course we've passed down beowulf warcraft those stories should we should we do warcraft as a ben's choice i think we. I think we should because it's important because it's going to lead to more movies. I mean, we can't end it there. They're going to keep making those. But they're almost the inverse of each other, Ben, because Warcraft is like,

here's this thing that everyone finds really fun and Duncan Jones is like, okay, hold on one second. Stick with me here. I'm going to turn it into homework. And this movie is the opposite. You need to know about all the factions. It takes like homework and is like,

I'm going to make this so fucking punk rock and trashy. Like Zemeckis is trying so hard. Like, kids, come back here. Come on. Look, they're titties. Yes, of course. Right. Drink your mead.

Would make it into my drink your mead. All these things would make it into my book your mead all these things would make it into my book report if i was using that as my source material yeah uh to answer your question though david i've it's the visuals you can't get past it they're so bad they are so bad so bad yeah that's the thing there is so there's it's a movie of extremes on the one hand the visuals are unbearable and on the other hand he jumps through a sea serpent's eyeball and says his own name you can't argue with that they're they're they're both extremes i mean how do you i don't know i don't know they wrestle within me it comes down to are do you are you a pessimist or an optimist i

mean ultimately i gotta take the good, you know? Otherwise, why get up in the morning? Not to get too heavy, man. But I got to take jumping through the eyeball over the awful, truly repugnant and repulsive visuals of this film. For me, the goblet of meat is half full. There you go. Me too. Me too.

All right. Let's play the box office game this movie it was like almost a hit almost a hit yeah well it made 195 worldwide which was probably just about enough to not ruin steve bing's investment or whatever you know what i mean but it made 82 domestic oh not good not not great you know versus like polar express whatever Polar Express I don't know It opened fairly well It opened like high 20s 27 on November 16th

Pretty good opening It drops off It falls off a cliff eventually Into the ocean Gets eaten by a sea serpent It did fine It did fine Let's talk about this box office though Griffin It's a weird one by a sea serpent. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it did fine. It did fine.

Let's talk about this box office though, Griffin. It's a weird one. So we're in November 2007. So this is my freshman year, my only full semester of college before I dropped out. I have just graduated from college. Yes. So in America,

like normal kind of situation. Yeah, like no person. In Britain, that's where I went to college. What? Oh my God. I'm just calling my shot. This might be one of those top fives that I answer very quickly

because this was such a foundational movie going period for me because for the first time in my life, I needed people to drive me to the movie theater. Because you're in California, right? I was in California. I was in college. I am afraid of cars. So movies, I was very strategic about theater going,

but had my tabs on everything. And this is when I worked for People Magazine as a plucky young intern, and I did a lot of red carpet, and I covered the red carpets of two of these five in the top five. So number one is Beowulf. Number two, it's in its third week.

It's made $93 million. It's an animated film. And yes, I covered the red carpet. Is it Bee Movie? Bee Movie! Honey just got funny! Yep. I'm telling you, I remember this vividly. And now that you gave me the red carpet hint, I believe I know

what one of the other five is. Well, fair enough. But yeah, so Bee Movie, Jerry Seinfeld. I got to talk to Jerry Seinfeld on the red carpet. And Renee Zellweger. That's what I remember. know what one of the other five is uh fair well fair enough um but yeah so b movie jerry seinfeld i got to talk to jerry seinfeld on the red carpet and renee zellweger um that's right private select um b movie b movie rock is in that one i don't think he came to london for the premiere who else is in that you ask me more of a c movie oh wow have you seen b movie i actually never have i know i've seen segments of b movie i've never been able to watch the whole thing i've done the thing on youtube with the video where it gets twice as fast every time he says honey or b or whatever i think it's b

every variation exists every variation exists yeah i've seen the memes i've seen the b movie memes barry b benson like jazz all that good stuff but i've never actually seen but that's like such a perfect example of movie i would have taken my sister to see and gone like oh i gotta take care of my sister but really i wanted to see b movie or would have dragged a bunch of teenage friends to go see under the auspices of it being an ironic viewing and instead i was like i have to make tough choices here either i go see no country for old men or b movie only one car ride is gonna happen this week so number three at the box office was a big oscar contender that didn't really pan out but it was a hit it's a pretty good movie american crime movie yes american

gangster ridley scott's american gangster oh yeah um which you know what you know what i mean griff It's a pretty good movie. American Gangster. It's a crime movie. Yes. American Gangster. Ridley Scott's American Gangster. Oh, yeah. Which, you know what I mean, Griff? Like, that was the front runner. You know, it was just kind of like, wow, come on. Like, this thing is just going to completely destroy. And I remember it being fine. And a big fucking hit.

And the album sells a ton. And then it gets just Ruby Dee, right? It gets Ruby Dee. And yeah, maybe that was the only nomination. You don't like American Gangster? I saw it. I have no memory of it whatsoever. I don't have much memory of it.

It had an art direction. I remember it looking good. Like costumes and uptown. I remember it being fine. Ridley Scott. You know, I mean. Don't you dare. No, no. You be careful. I mean, i mean oh don't don't don't you dare no no you'd be careful i mean like i don't know if you're gonna he's made a lot of boring movies

i agree with you jordan how dare you this is outrageous and disgusting this is deplorable stop the count i would watch beowulf any day of the week over 85 of rid Ridley Scott's output. Wow. I can't even litigate that. We have to move on to number four at the box office. You want to litigate, you might want to hire a counselor. I do like the counselor. Counselor, Blade Runner, and Alien. The counselor slaps.

Counselor's like his Beowulf. That's it. If the counselor slapped you, you'd fucking end up in like the Bahamas. That's how hard it slaps. It would slap you across the country. Ben, have you ever seen the counselor? you, you'd fucking end up in like the Bahamas. That's how hard it slaps. It would slap you across the country. Ben, have you ever seen The Counselor? I have not.

It's maybe the closest anyone's come to making night eggs. Oh, fuck. All right. Scum and The Counselor on my list. Right. The Counselor is also the scummiest movie of the decade. But anyway, look, we can get on The Counselor. It's too late for us to delve into that right now because we have to talk about the Christmas comedy

that is number four at the box office. Oh, I know what it is. I know what it is. Fred Claus. It is Fred Claus. Wow. Yes. With Vince Vaughn,

Paul Giamatti as a Jewish Santa Claus. He's not really bad. Is that a Dennis Dugan joint? No, it's not. It's fucking... David Dobkin. David Dobkin, the judge himself, who finally made a good movie this year.

What was his movie? Eurovision, baby. Eurovision. I take a Fred Claus over that. All right. Number five. It's new this week It's the other movie that I covered the red carpet for Lions for Lambs

It's not Lions for Lambs What? That is number eight So that's out That's another one where I covered the red carpet Now this one, how to even Explain this movie It's got a silly title.

Family. Family. It's a family film. It's new this week. It's a bomb. 2007. Silly title. Does it star an African American comic? It does not. It stars a, it stars

two Oscar winning actors. I think one of them had not yet won her Oscar. Oh, it's Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium. It's Mr. Magorium's Oscar Emporium. It's about how they make the trophies. They make the trophies. It's Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium. Yeah.

Zach Helms, Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium with Dustin Hoffman, Natalie Portman, Jason Bateman, right? He's the villain, maybe. I mean, fundamentally a movie representing the last gasps before studios let algorithms

decide which movies got made. That's a movie that a computer never greenlights. Yeah, computers like the trap door opens before you even get to the pitch reading right right yeah grendel shows up for those for those yeah he was such a hot spec screenwriter he had written stranger than fiction and people were like is this guy diet charlie kaufman is he charlie kaufman but commercial right and off of the excitement of that movie, Sony greenlit his directorial film.

They were like, you're going to win an Oscar in 2006. So 2007 will hit them with a family comedy. And he got fucking Dustin Hoffman, Natalie Portman, and Jason Bateman. He hasn't made a movie since. No. Hey, you make it, you know, it's like Harper Lee. You knock it out of the park and then why go back you know it's mr magorium's wonder emporium i hope like 50 years from now

when he's on death's bed his children are like our father made a follow-up he never wanted it released it's the ghost at a watchman of old man magorium turns out he was a total racist. Griff, number six is Dan in Real Life. Put it on my tab. Number seven is No Country for Old Men. And it's second week expanding, getting ready to win an Oscar. You also have Lions for

Lambs. You have Saw 4, the fourth of the Saws. So Mandalore, Costas Mandalore running the table of the saws. So Mandalore, Costas Mandalore running the table in this box office. That is a great, that is a great point. That was when

Costas Mandalore was fucking at the high roller table for one to two years, dining out on saws three to six, I want to say something like that. He's in a lot of them.

Folding the box office like laundry. There was a character named Hoffman in the Saw movies. He is Hoffman. He is Hoffman. He's kind of the main character of every Saw movie that no one remembers. He becomes the main detective, right? Yes, exactly. And he probably eventually turns into

i don't know a bear trap or whatever you know i don't know what happened that movie gets very though that series is very convoluted yeah that franchise is such a cash cow for him because his quote went up to like 65 000 per song i mean if we use a skill saw, it really would have been good. I mean, hopefully spiral once we open the book, the book of saw. We have to open the book of saw. We need the vaccine so we can open the book of saw. It has to happen. This isn't natural. We're not supposed to live this way.

We're supposed to have opened the book of saw months ago. Yes. All right. We did it. We did it. We did it. We did it. We did it. We did it it we did it we did it we did we did it jordan what a pleasure i don't know why that was funny but it was yeah it was all right it was

all right it was all right no it was beowulf with the boys i'm telling you something. I watched Beowulf again earlier today for the first time in 13 years. And I, I had a good, I, I like this movie. It's so, it's so confounding to me. I was positive on it in theaters.

I hadn't seen it since I bought it on iTunes when I saw it on sale recently, knowing we were going to have to cover it. And my takeaway is I'm buying that fucking Blu-ray so i can watch picture in picture like i will watch beowulf again at some point in my life voluntarily sure i'm gonna do it right now and it's funny because i am not a zemeckis completist you know there's a lot of his stuff i haven't seen such as i've never seen i've never seen Polar Express or Christmas Carol. Oh boy. Yeah, that's okay.

You're not missing much. Yeah, you're alright. Christmas Carol's the last one I haven't seen. I've seen every movie he released since then. I missed The Walk. Sure.

I missed a few others, but... Yeah, you don't need to go for a walk. Yeah, you can take a seat. You're fine. What if he... If the walk had been such a hit, he had to make a sequel called The Seat.

The Rest. The Nap. I liked Allied. I liked... Hey! Jordan! Yes! i'm all about ally david's been shitting on allied since day one for years i've been defending allied on this podcast it's the number one reason i'm excited to do this because i want justice for ally i think david's gonna re-watch it i think i was probably in the theater with you david when we saw uh yeah

it was days after trump got elected and you had long predicted his victory and i would would always get so mad at you and then you were right i know i i am one of my i'm i'm upset about that but i knew i knew i knew somehow i know oh did he know but you know it's funny there's a couple of his biggies that i've never seen i've just for whatever reason never got around a cast away sure and i never saw what lies beneath either good movie i guess that year is the same year they came out i watched neither of them you'd like those you should check those out yeah i probably should and i i was death becomes her i know was a big cult hit i remember seeing that in the theater not being on its wavelength at all you might be 28 years on you might be who knows

but anyway yeah i might like it now yeah all all three of those movies are more interesting now just as like wow they let people make these all right but anyway anyway you were wrapping us up griffin yeah no yeah we're wrapping it up i we all got stuff to do uh just real quick um it's good good seeing you guys you know wait wait bent jordan weren't you going to announce something or did i make that up did i forget that oh no i was now it's late well you know by the time this airs because we've already recorded i'm doing a new podcast whoa for those who liked the sound the mellifluous sounds of my dulcet tones a friend of mine maybe you guys know his name is john devore

he's an internet guy he's a writer he's award-winning writer he's a he's a real real deal he's won a bunch of crap uh john devore is obsessed with the movie uh with david lynch's dune yes so uh we have recorded a mini series called the dune conversations uh for four uh 30 minute shows allegedly about the movie dune and by now hopefully it's out and people are listening to it or at least you know they can if they want hell yeah uh check it out in the show description we'll have links oh yeah links yeah forget about links uh yeah great great plug, Jordan. Unfortunately, I think it is going to fall on deaf ears. I cannot imagine that appealing to our listenership.

A very obsessive, dorky miniseries about a film that most people dismiss. I don't think you're barking up the right tree, but I'd love to be proven wrong. That sounds great. Can't wait. Really quick uh guys next week you know just remind um the fans uh my untitled slow christmas album uh is slated to be

released uh around the uh christmas carol uh episode uh so let's oh god i forgot stay tuned a Christmas Carol episode. Oh, God, I forgot. Stay tuned for that. Yes, let's. Yes, of course. By all means, please keep your eyes peeled to Blank Check Media social, Blank Check social media accounts

for information on the drop of Ben Hosley's Slow Christmas album. And thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Antford Goodo for our social media, Lane Montgomery for our theme song, Joe Bone, Pat Rounds for our artwork. Go to blankies.red.com

for some real nerdy shit. And go to patreon.com slash blank check for blank check special features where we're digging into those Ridley Scott alien movies as he comes back on the franchise. Makes you ask a lot of questions about God. Can't wait. God and Roberts. Tune in next week for Christmas Carol and Ben's album.

Oh yeah. I want to hear that. Of course. And as always, Robert Zemeckis is the only filmmaker with the courage to do an entire action sequence in the style of Austin Powers' The Spy Who Shagged Me's

opening credit sequence.