Blank Check with Griffin & David - Big Fish with Chris Gethard

Episode Date: March 10, 2019

Chris Gethard Beautiful/Anonymous podcast returns to Blank Check to discuss 2003's father and son fantasy, Big Fish. And also, to talk about Star Wars some more. But does Big Fish's ending pay out like a slot machine? Was 2003 the year Steven Spielberg and Tim Burton culturally flip-flopped? What are some of the nerd perks offered at the new Star Wars hotels? Together, they spend 2+ hours examining the performances of the cast including Albert Finney and Billy Crudup, motorcycle cages, which vignette to cut out of this movie, and of course Mr. Soggybottom.  Plus, be sure to grab copy of Chris Gethard's new book, Lose Well!

In telling the podcast of my father's life, it's impossible to separate facts from fiction, the man from the myth. The best I can do is to tell it the way he told me. It doesn't always make sense, and most of it never happened. But that's what kind of podcast this is. God. Give me that back. Come on. Give me that back.

You're not already getting one over? Crudup is not winning me over in this movie. He's the one who's not winning me over. I'll say, like, right off the bat, hot takes. Because our guest has been complaining

that we've been saying a lot of good stuff pre-episode. That we're spitting our hot takes off mic. Am I allowed to speak? Yeah, you can speak. Yeah, of course. We've been here for roughly 25 minutes and we've discussed so many things

about this film. Right. The last time I was on, we didn't even get to the film we were discussing for over an hour. You're right. We've spent 25 minutes giving hot takes amongst each other that weren't recorded.

Sure. You're very right. Let's get focused. Let's get straight down to business. Chris, what did you think of Solo at Star Wars? I thought Solo was solid. Unfairly maligned? Unfairly maligned, you think? Unfairly maligned in the sense of, look, if we want this universe to keep expanding,

some of these stories aren't going to relate directly to like galactic stakes. Sure. If every single installment in the Star Wars world, the actual galaxy is on the line, it's not sustainable. It will lose any sense of effect. So I think it's really smart for them to go,

let's take a character you love, do a smaller story that has stakes internal to that character's life outside of the Empire and the Rebellion and all that. I think people were complaining about, oh, this story felt like small. And it's like, well, they're going to have to. See, I have no complaints on that front. My complaint with the movie is I think the movie

would work better even more divorced. I think that story works better not as a Han Solo story. And you go, here's just a Star Wars story. It's small scale. It's about street rats. Right. These are kids in the slums who are trying to make a better life for themselves. The Solo is what's hurting it.

But let's explain the Millennium Falcon. I'm like, don't need you to. Don't do it. Well, I was thinking about this on the way here. Star Wars. It's funny i feel like one of the points big fish makes is that and i have so many opinions on this movie because of my background which i'm sure we'll get into one of the major things that big fish i think makes is like hey

life can be more fun sometimes if you just choose to ask less questions yeah star wars is maybe the ultimate franchise that i was thinking about this year because especially the end of Big Fish when you start to see the reality versions of everything I think that's so beautiful but Star Wars is maybe the ultimate franchise that anytime they've actually tried to double down and explain a character more than you already heard about it

ruins it Boba Fett was our favorite they tried kids, I feel like they probably sell 80% less Boba Fett merchandise our favorite. They tried to, they tried, kids, I would, I feel like they probably sell 80% less Boba Fett merchandise than they did before the prequels because he was just that guy with the cool mask.

Even when they gave him a name, they managed to give him a good name, Boba Fett, but first, in Empire, he's just the bounty hunter. He's just bounty hunter.

Then I was thinking about it too. One of the main Achilles heels, I think, of the original trilogy, who is the emperor? Who is that? i think of the original trilogy who is the emperor who is that right in the original trilogy you know there's a guy even worse than darth vader and they never say i think it's a little unspoken or a little weird like that like star wars has the best villain of all time has darth vader he's so scary yeah and then the empire strikes back they're like this guy's got a boss and i'm like no I don't care and even Darth Vader

I don't want him to have a boss even Darth Vader in the original trilogy they give him an iconic piece of backstory but they give him one piece of backstory

very simple I am your father that's all the backstory they give that character and that's at the end of a second entire movie yeah it takes them two movies to reveal anything about that guy

we already love and think is cool. It would be like trying to explain every gang in The Warriors. Actually explain them. It would be like if you made a series. And that's another thing. In The Warriors, it's like the baseball gang. I get it. They got baseball bats.

I get it. That's all I needed to know. Thank you. Thank you. The roller skate gang, I don't need to know why they chose to make their headquarters a subway station bathroom. Perhaps the least desirable place

to hang out in all of New York City, a subway station bathroom. Most of which are now just locked permanently forever. Actually, side question that I have, have either of you ever used a subway station bathroom? I think I have.

And I was born in this city. I've never done it. I have. In Woodside, there's one there That's like tolerable I used it only for pee in an absolute emergency That is kind of crazy David

Because like me you were born in New York City And then lived here for the entire duration of your life Well there's this 13 year stretch where I lived in England Just put that out there You guys been to the Penn Station bathroom? Yeah oh yeah That thing is Giuliani you forgot Giuliani forgot Just put that out there. You guys been to the Penn Station bathroom? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh. That thing is.

Yes. Giuliani, you forgot. Giuliani forgot. One 30 square foot. He was like, we can't. Port Authority is even worse. He just basically said Penn Station and Port Authority are like the New Jersey embassies. Right.

Here. And I'm just going to leave them up. Port Authority is. It literally feels like. the snowplow machine he used to clean up times square he then led directly into port well port authority also feels like say you're the mayor and you sit down with what's like a chic like pancatidian and you're like whatever you want to have a restaurant in port authority and they're just like no absolutely not tax not. Tax-free, rent-free. No, we won't do it. We won't go in there.

It'll curse us somehow. Port Authority is like only franchises that you're pretty certain went out of business 12 years. Port Authority has like a Circuit City and a bowling alley that they remodel every few years to make cool. I had my birthday at that bowling alley

when I was like seven years old. Okay. Only one? Because that's weird because you would have spent the rest of your childhood in New York and you never went back

I already said that. I grew up in England, you twerp. Chris kind of breezed over it. We used to sneak in as Jersey kids do. You used to take the bus

into Port of Thurby and not tell your parents. And my friend, Mike D, older friend of mine, great, great guy. He was a little bit of a bad kid so he would sneak in all your parents. And my friend, Mike D, older friend of mine, great, great guy, he was a little bit of a bad kid, so he would sneak in all the time. And he one time was waiting for the last

bus back to Jersey. Which, if you miss it, you're dead. Like, you're a high school kid, you can't, how are you getting back to New Jersey? What would you do? Would you, like, sleep in the Port Authority or something? I know, and like, your parents are gonna think you're dead, you know? So, he's in there. And this is like a pre-cell phone era, too, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is the mid-90s. And he was in there. And this is like a pre-cell phone era too, right?

Yeah, this is the mid-90s. And he was in there and he had to take a shit. He started doing the math and he's like, I can't leave Port Authority and make it back. I'm going to have to do that. I have to shit. I'm not making it back to Jersey. So he goes into the Port Authority bathroom. This is the last

bus. It's probably like 2 in the morning. It's mid-90s too. You know, this is like, you still saw some street walker prostitutes. Yeah, the Jonah Hill era.

You still saw. And he goes into the Port Authority bathroom. He's the only one there. Oh, that's worse somehow. No, he's like, thank God. Okay.

So he goes, he sits down in the stall, he's taking a shit. Yeah. Then he hears the door open. This is my, why it's worse. It's just a giant syringe

he hears all this screaming oh just one person screaming so he just tells himself he goes mike whatever is going on out there you fucking run right you're not wipe up you're not washing your hands today it's pre-purell era too sure you have fucking fecal hands all the way back to Jersey to me that's like yeah look I'm paying whatever debt I have to pay

to get out of here so he wipes up he flushes and he just takes off running and he claims that what he passed was a homeless individual removing his own teeth

with a pair of pliers oh god with knives? pliers pliers port authority jeez that's port authority jeez now With a pair of pliers. With knives? Pliers. Port Authority. That's Port Authority. Jeez.

Now, Big Fish is arguably about the importance of stories in our lives. Storytelling and personal legend. I really wanted to ask you guys this. And it's been covered on the internet. I looked it up to make sure. It's something that I've never really read up on. It's bothered me since I was a child.

Yeah. In A New Hope. Uh-huh. If we're talking about storytelling. Yeah, we're getting focused. We're talking about C-3PO Star Wars.

So specifically says in A New Hope, ah, sorry, I'm not good at stories. Luke's like, tell me about the rebellion. He's like, And he's like,

I wouldn't, I'm not programmed for that so explicitly Jedi he tells the whole story for the Ewoks the Ewoks are sitting there with rapt attention like this motherfucker is Spalding Gray well not only that he is kind of like Spalding Gray

like he's doing sound effects he's holding it down he would like win a Lucille Lortel award if that was off Broadway yeah he would like win a lucio lortello award if that was off broadway yeah he would double extension double extension oh yeah and they'll jack the prices he'd have a chance to make the jump for biglia style yeah for biglia style right 12 weeks he's so good at telling stories in jedi and no justification no no justification except no i'm trying to think like zero i mean c-3po isn't really a character who like changes it's not like he's not you know because like in star trek you've got like

the holographic doctor and like the point of him is that he sort of like becomes human like the longer he's on and interacting with sure c-3po is always basically the same yeah he's that's why he is what he is I think Lucas fell into like I guess we gotta do sitcom plots with C-3PO like he's Mr. Bazinga

he's unchanging the thing that can change are the circumstances around him right so it's like first movie he's uppity

second movie what's the plot now he keeps cock blocking yeah that's it that is he keeps cock blocking and then halfway through the movie his head is blown off. And he is strapped to the back of Chewbacca.

But then even you look at the prequels and it's like what story ideas does he have for C-3PO? C-3PO's head ends up on another robot. He doesn't want C-3PO to grow at all. C-3PO's not going to do shit. In the prequels when he is to a fault over explaining how different characters used to be, C-3PO's not gonna do shit. In the prequels, when he is to a fault over explaining how different

characters used to be, C-3PO is exactly the same. They're just like, what's so weird? C-3PO plans two dinners at the same restaurant at the same time. It's just like hijinks. It feels like Lucas straight up. As you get older and you realize that Star Wars

is one of the best things in my life and one of the most informative things in my life. I'm about to have a son. I said it to my wife as soon as we got pregnant. I cannot wait to show my child Star Wars and I mean all that. It's also bad. And it maybe always was.

But that's what's great about it. And it was cool when he was young. And in the prequels he wasn't young enough to be cool anymore and it just exposed that all of it was young. And in the prequels, he wasn't young enough to be cool anymore, and it just exposed that all of it was bad. It feels like the thought on C-3PO was he straight up watched Hidden Fortress. He was like, oh, I want

something that looks like that. Tall, skinny guy, short guy. And you're telling the story from low status characters. And that image was the extent of the thought behind C-3PO. It's like, I need a skinny guy in the desert to look like that. And that was the extent. I like how George Lucas is now like a sandwich guy from the Bronx.

Yes, he's a Bronx. Give me a skinny guy, all right? He's a street cart vendor in the Bronx. You're going to want to take this lamb shoulder you put in the oven 50 minutes. This lamb shoulder you put in the oven 50 minutes. Do you know this whole thing that like Anthony Daniels hated Kenny Baker? Sure. And he would always talk shit about him.

Really? And when people would be like, you and Kenny Baker, you're a team. And he's like, I'm an actor. Kenny Baker is not an actor. Right. Which is kind of fair because Kenny Baker is more of a technician. He's just a guy who's inside of a robot. But then people would poke Kenny Baker because they were like, oh, is this like a Shatner Takai thing where they'll both have shit to say to each other?

And Kenny Baker's like, I got nothing bad to say about the guy. Well, because look, here's what Kenny Baker knows in his heart. It's like, I don't care how much theater you did on the West End. Put on your fucking gold helmet, asshole. You sold your soul just like all of us. 100% of people know you as C-3PO. 0% of people know you as c3po zero percent of people know you as anything and here's the point literally post 1980 anthony daniels has not had a single acting role that isn't c3 right and it's like fine but don't beat up on poor kenny baker kenny baker had like a diverse career like he was in

time bandits like he had other roles where he was in the sort of face visible saying dialogue. Like ensemble. He worked. Like guy had range. And he was just like, this is a job I'm doing. I operate R2D2. And people were like, how nice. You're a comedy team.

And Anthony Daniels was like, that guy's a fucking monkey. Also it was Macbeth. Just on a basic level. I don't care how much of an asshole Kenny Baker is you don't talk shit about a little person agreed well that's true

and Kenny Baker was by all accounts not an asshole like even if he was an asshole you'd be like don't do it bad optics by all accounts

Kenny Baker he was just like I'm not looking to fight with anybody I don't know what Anthony Dales problem with me is and then Anthony Dales

would double down I would love I just have a vision in my head of him like going to the producer, going to fucking Irving Kirshner or whoever. Being like, I can't work with Baker anymore. He's this and that. And then Kirshner being like, cool, I'll get that on record anyway. Why don't you go down to wardrobe and get wrapped up in the tuna can, asshole. Because I don't have time in the day for this.

I got to fix all of George Lucas' plot holes. Can't be worried about you. We're in the tundra. Yeah. You're right. He wrote this fucking script. We're in an ice planet. Did you know this? We're in a part of Norway where humans can't sustain life. I gotta listen to you

do this bullshit. You don't even have to look at Kenny Baker. He's fully inside the trash can. The lid is on. The guy who plays Cliff Cl have to look at Kenny Baker. He's fully inside the trash can. He's like, the lid is on. The guy who plays Cliff Clavin's already giving me shit. He's got one line. I gotta put up with shit from you, too. Oh, boy.

What's the motivation in this scene? That's what Cliff Clavin's going with. I gotta get people to suspend their disbelief about something called a tauntaun so Lucas can sell more goddamn toys especially for that character you're like just say bazinga the game is clear yeah be percy be upset kershner if you ever listen to his commentary for him is amazing because he's just like when there's a visual effect scene he's just like yeah i told them to do all this and they were like what do you mean you know i was just i don't know just make him fly around like he had no interest in that shit whatsoever

lucas's thing on that has had like literal smithsonian exhibits about his level of visual right like the models and but that's why that movie worked so well was like he hired someone to handle like the dramatic integrity of the story and the performances and shot composition and shit. And then he was like, you figure out the thing where the thing eats the other thing. I don't know. It flies into an asteroid or whatever. I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm sure you'll figure it out. Yeah.

Like I was saying before, the least explained characters are the best Star Wars characters. Kit Fisto. Listen, I haven't caught up on those cartoons as much as I should. Sure. So I don't know. I know they gave some Fisto adventures. I don't think they,

it's just adventures though, right? They're not telling you like what his deal is. He's just a badass. The smart thing is, I feel like anytime they answered a question about Fisto, they'd raise five new questions. Good. So you always felt like you knew less about him.

You can like him more. But he rarely would speak, even on the cartoons. He's kind of a silent, but grinning. Grinning. He's often smiling. He's having fun. He likes it. He likes it.

But this is why one of my favorite prequel characters is Count Dooku, because he comes in, he's like, I'm Count Dooku. And you're like, you're a count? Huh? What does that mean? Not explained. And he's got a curvy lightsaber. Not explained. Right? You know, like, you know, he's no other character is like him.

He's old as shit. He's so old. Yeah. And he talks to Yoda like he knows him. You know, like, oh, Yoda, we go way back. And never, I mean, none of this is ever explained. Right, and he's like, I'm a call. Darth Maul is less explained than that. Darth Maul is counting too good he can't even speak.

But the problem with Darth Maul is they've tried, they keep bringing him back. I mean, the solo has him. Where they're like, more of Darth Maul. And I think it's the same answer. No, no, he was cool when he was nothing. You dropped the ball. He gave you one amazing scene.

The reason to rewatch The Phantom Menace is that fight scene. Let's drop it. When we were watching that, when we watched it in the theater, I don't think it was opening day. It might have been opening weekend. And when that came up, you just heard all the nerds gasp. You heard people, oh shit he's in charge of the gang

and my wife with a voice that sounded like she had just finished running a marathon just goes, who is that? I was like, right this is this is for 5% of people this is the problem that being said, oh my god, I can't believe this.

How many days after it opens will you guys be staying in that Star Wars hotel? We've talked about it a lot. We have talked about it. Even I am intrigued. Because you know, I'm a big theme park person.

Is it in Orlando or California? Both. The Orlando one's going to be better. It always is, right? Because they have more space. They have more space. Right. The city of Orlando is like,

yeah, pave over that part of the town. I think it's supposed to open in May, maybe? Is that soon? May or June? They're both opening this year. I would like to go not in the summer. I don't want to go to Orlando in the summer. And it's supposed to be like a sleep no more thing, right? So there are a couple things. You commit to character when you

stay in a hotel. There are going to be Star Wars specific hotels. I've heard that if you stay in those hotels, there's an option where you pay a ton of money. And I don't know if there's a rumor where they'll be like, so do you want to be a Jedi or a smuggler? Do you want to be a spy? And then they'll like call you in the middle of the night. What if I'm like, I want to be in the trade race. Oh, yeah. I want to attack some trade race.

And then they're like, sir, we have told you that racism is not accepted here in Disney World. I'm just going by what you're giving me. You show up in green face. And they're like, sir. And you're like, oh. And they're like, oh, God. No, no. I did.

They are like the fucking. I know there's a lot of presence in the parks. So they're not totally erasing the weird racial stereotypes. If it can sell a toy, it's going to show up. Right, and his name's Toydarian. That's a species name. So there's a short walk there.

The thing I've heard is, you know. That was. That's true. Chris is a little flabbergasted. That threw me further. Wado's a Toydarian, I was a Toydarian? No, your tone of like, and his name is Toydarian, so it's a short walk. But are you, I want to go like, I think my son will have been recently born and I think I want to go and abandon him for a day or two to go live in that world.

So I have a friend who's a theme park fanatic. I went to Disney World with him last October. He keeps on nudging me being like, when are we going to make Star Wars plans?

And I'm like, I don't know if I can go within the first 18 months of the thing opening because it's going to be a nightmare. Insane. Like they're trying

to prepare themselves as much as possible to prevent like Black Friday style death by stampede. Everyone's terrified that there's actually going to be overpopulation, people getting trampled to death

issues. On the other hand, I'm already sniffing around being like, is there somewhere I can get someone to get me to cover this? You mean get a press visit or something? Yeah. Like can we sell someone on like a piece or something?

You know? Yeah. Because I'm like that I would do. Otherwise, I feel like I have to wait like two years. You know me well enough to know that if there is a stampede. You want to be there. I want to be an eyewitness. Yes.

I want to be running. I want to be fleeing from my life with genuine fear in my heart as people around me are trampled to death. And it's like, oh no, I'm holding a fake lightsaber and I just watched someone die. Oh no, no, no. I want to be the witness to that story.

Because the Avatar theme park at opening I heard it's amazing. It rules. But it was that thing where like everyone gets to the gates of Animal Kingdom, the least popular theme park, an hour before it opens. For a franchise that's not 100th as beloved. Right. And the Avatar stuff is all the way in the back of Animal Kingdom. And everyone's waiting outside the gates for an hour so that the second the gates open, they can like run to get in line for the Avatar ride.

Right. Because very quickly that ride becomes a six hour wait or something and like the star wars thing is going to be that times a billion because everyone loves it the thing i've heard is that like the the big rides this millennium falcon ride yeah but it's like a six person ride where everyone takes a different position on the millennium falcon it's like actually an interactive thing where like where you can be in one of the in the gun where you can be in one of the gun chairs. You're not in one of the gun chairs. How pissed are you if you're

Chewbacca? If you're the co-pilot. Their battle is trying to make each seat have its own advantages. Good luck. You're the one who gets to sit there and play hollow chess, asshole. But then here's the thing that's going to blow your guys' mind.

The ride's actually interactive. You're actually affecting the outcome, right? You're making decisions. Ben, fix these fucking lights. They're driving me crazy. Sorry, keep going. It's not just like a Bandersnatch thing where you activate like one of ten possible options. Like anything can happen, I think, right? Literally anything.

But then you go on it. Just for the listener, Ben quote, fixed the lights by just turning them off. Just one third darker. Ben took out a hammer and started smashing the light bulbs and now they're fixed.

The thing I've heard is that like, you go on the Millennium Falcon ride, you do well or this or that and then they'll like, through some weird like Big Brother, Amazon Echo communication system

relay to cast members in the park who are playing, like, walk-around Star Wars atmosphere characters. So that if you're at, like, the cantina after that, some, like, scumbum will come to me and be like,

Oh, it's you. The guy who took the left. They'll know what you did on the ride. It's not that thrilling that I took a left. I'll know what you did on the ride. It's not that thrilling that I took a left. I hope they got something better than that. They might come up to you and go like, hey, I heard it was your first time behind a gun

and you took out three tie fights. They'll know the exact details of what you did. Fucking walk around the park with a boner for the rest of my stay. You have a reputation at the park. If you stay at the hotel, that's double. Is it because apparently your wake up is someone coming in and being like,

quick, take this. But have you heard rumors that you can go into the park in the middle of the night for missions and stuff like that? I don't know. I know the hotel is like an all night kind of thing. I tell you what, I was just, my parents spend a big chunk of the year

in Florida now because there's snowbirds. Snowbirds, classic snowbirds. And we went to not one of the parks. It's like Disney Springs. It's like their outdoor shopping mall type thing. They have some attractions and they had a Star Wars virtual reality thing. Oh, have you done that thing? I just did it.

It is unbelievable. Did you do it? Yes, I did. Dude, David, do you know about this? I mean, you're walking at one point. You have a virtual reality helmet on. And it's clearly, it must be like a 10-foot square area with these hallways that they just have you keep walking around in loops, but you don't feel that?

It's like a black box theater that they're like moving around. There's one point where you feel like you're walking on like an open air bridge over lava where heat is blasting you from all sides. And then people are shooting at you, and you feel their shots hitting the bridge and shaking it. And it's... It's got like a laser tag thing where you're wearing the vest

and if someone shoots you, it vibrates the right amount where you're like, I feel the threat of being hit without it being painful. Your instinct isn't like, oh, this game is cool. Your instinct is like,

oh shit, I better focus up. There was a part that blew my mind where like... Which is how it should be. Like the VR ones that are just like, isn't this amazing that this exists? Like, okay. No, this was the first time I was like, I see this as a sustainable art form with validity.

It's the void. Any city that has the void, that's what this Star Wars thing is made for. But that's the whole notion of the props are real. If you touch anything, it's actually tactile set up in the right way. But there was a moment where like K2SO is like your NPC like mission giver. Sure. And it's just like, okay, so there's like a CGI rendering of a robot there.

And you're just listening to him give you the instructions before the gates open and then you walk out and you're ready for the mind blow of like the doors open and oh my god there's a door opening right there but as i was walking out i like my hand brushed across i was like wait a second and i went back and there was a fucking full-scale k2so there oh like a real right i think you were telling me about there was like a 10 foot statue and i was like feeling it, and I was like, this isn't just they put a mannequin in here. Like this is clearly K2SO. This is like a metal robot.

But it has the right dimensions and everything. Hey, Ben, can I get a time check on how long we've been talking about Star Wars on the Big Fish episode? Yeah, I'd say about 25 minutes. It's a podcast called Blank Check. It's about filmographies, directors who have massive success or are alone in their careers. Can I ask you guys one last question? Anything.

If we're playing by the rule of the less you know about a Star Wars character, the cooler the character is. Right, the Kit Fisto rule, let's call it. The Kit Fisto rule. But you guys know more about the cartoons, and I don't know as much. We don't know much. Neither of us are super hard into them, but we know more. And the comic books I've dabbled with, and they're actually incredibly good. The new Marvel ones are.

But I don't know what else has been explained there. By the Kit Fisto rule. Do I know more or less about Kit Fisto? Or Plo Koon? I don't think there's any Plo Koon content. Is it Kloon or Kloon? I think it's Koon or Kloon. It must be Kloon.

No, it's Plo Kloon, right? I think we got corrected on that. Oh, no, it's plo-coon. Plo-coon. That's what I said, actually. Yeah, you got it. Never doubt George Lucas' ability to walk right up to the line of something that feels like a bad taste. As we debated it, I said to myself, it better be cloon, actually.

I hope I was the one who was wrong. Are they going to be playing jizz at the cantina? Most definitely. Jizz, America's favorite music genre? Of course. They are. There will be a Cantina with a Cantina band that you can go hang out with.

Max Rebo? I don't know. I've read about the Cantina band. I haven't read about Max Rebo. I heard Sy Snoodles won't sign the contract. Snoodles is holding out. It's kind of like a Fleetwood Mac thing. They all dated.

It's a Lindsay fucking camp. It's real fucked up. I was desperately like, I can think of a third name, but I forgot the other names. Max Rebo, Si Snoodles. Something cool guy. Droopy McCool. Droopy McCool. Droopy McCool.

We once joked Ben would name his son. Droopy McCool. Droopy McCool, would name his son. Drew P. McCool. Who you always think is the elephant, but that's Max Rebo. Drew P. McCool just looks like an upside-down pig. It's more of an old... Max Rebo is the band leader in the old swing band. He's like a Tito Puente. Yeah, exactly.

Ty Soodles is the front woman. And then Drew P. McCool is just a pile of laundry. Drew McCool looks like an upside down pic. Yeah. An upside down pic. Yeah. Oh, no, it's not the keys. Right.

He's playing the... Max Weeble plays the keys. Yeah, Max Weeble's on the keys. Right. Who else he got? No, these names. These are not names. Oh, no, they expanded it in the re-releases?

Because originally it was just the three of them. In the re-releases, they made Size Noodles like a three of them. In the re-releases they made size noodles like a CGI before she was just a puppet who just sort of did this. Right. Just so jerky. My favorite song.

Oh no wait there's the guy who's like like he's like a little furry guy. Yeah they just added him. Who looks like the annoying frog or something. So is the answer Plo Koon?

The answer well here's what I would say. So is the answer Plo Koon? Yeah. The answer, well, here's what I would say. You know less about Plo Koon, but it feels like you know less about Kit Fisto because there's so much more to know. And we see, here's the difference. Kit Fisto fights. Right.

He's got to save the fight. There's a larger amount of information we know about kit fisto right there is a smaller percentage that we know about kit fisto in terms of his entire life story right he's an edward bloom type figure he has enough of a presence that we should know more right as hokun they nailed it he's a simple guy he's a company man yeah and kiadi mundi i think has been very thoroughly explained in the comic books. He has dialogue. He speaks in the prequels. He speaks his mind.

He speaks his mind. Ben, quick time check. Now we're doing it. Now we're hitting about 30 minutes. Now we're 30. Is everyone mad, or are they amused at the callback? Thrill.

I think people would be upset if we didn't do this. Yeah. I mean, I'm excited for episode nine. People keep saying a title's coming, but we know nothing about it, really. When is that out? May or December? Christmas.

Christmas. What if it turns out the movie is called Star Wars Episode Nine, colon, a title is coming? And we've had the title. What if it's just called Fisto? Oh, my God.

Well, what are the other standalones they got coming up? They canceled all of them. It's kind of in flux. Yeah. They've sort of taken their foot off the gas. Yeah. Because of Solo?

Yeah. Yeah, where they're like, let's release episode nine. We have this TV show in the works called The Mandalorian, which is like going to be probably more what you're talking about, like a, you know, scum bum. Scum bum Western starring Mandalorian Batman. Is it going to be for a network or for their new Disney Netflix?

Nick Nolte is on it as a regular cast member. Werner Herzog is on it as a regular cast member. As a guest member? How did I not know that? Oh, I'm so happy. So it's going to be a disaster.

Nolte and Herzog together at last. Jon Favreau is the showrunner. 2019 era Nick Nolte. Yes. In a show that co-stars Werner Herzog. Yeah. Can you imagine how much time Werner Herzog is going to spend studying Nick Nolte as if he were like an environmental phenomenon.

He's going to make a documentary being like with like creep shots of Nick Nolte being like, nature has ravaged this man. Like that. Like, you like it. Once he caused damage with his fist now time causes damage to his face.

And then they have the Rian Johnson trilogy that is sort of not being talked about anymore. Right, and then the Game of Thrones guys trilogy that's sort of not being talked about anymore. That's dead. You think that's dead? I don't know if that's dead. I think that's alive.

If they really backed out of all that to reassess the strategy, I respect that. Because it lets me know they're trying to say, how do we keep this thing alive two or three decades from now? I think that's the thought. Someone intervened and was like, we don't need a Star Wars every year. They were like, let's make the movies feel like events and we can do comics,

do streaming shows, do all the other stuff in between. And Solo showed that. Make movies feel really special. If Solo had hit, we would be, Ewan McGregor, star of Big Fish, would be ewan mcgregor star big fish would be filming his obi-wan spinoff like oh that was a rumor right yeah that wasn't just a rumor that was like pretty much pretty much ready to go it's a shame yeah i agree because that's what i want i want that yes there is a part of me that feels like ben's laughing at me there's a part of me

that feels like 40 minutes now well i feel i i will just say there's a part of me that feels like 40 minutes now? Well, I feel I will just say there's a part of me that feels like there's certain salvageable salvageable pieces of the prequels. One of them being that we all did go Ewan McGregor's that's pretty cool. He's kind of nailing it

as young Obi-Wan. And also, I just like the idea that he's aged up. He's aged appropriately. That he spent time with this character. And now he's it's 15 years later or whatever.

He's ready to do middle-aged Obi-Wan. Right. Don't cast another guy as Harrison Ford. Like, you know, that's much more, that's a harder needle to thread.

And he's been off the grid in general a little bit. Like, we'd all be happy to just see Ewan McGregor again. He's starting to hit hard again now because it's like, He's back. Chris or Robin,

he's doing the sequel to The Shining then he's the villain in the Harley Quinn movie. Like, now he's like a big studio guy again. You know what I was thinking about if we're talking about prequel stuff? I was thinking about this on the way here.

It is wild that George Lucas made a character. And everybody made fun of it. So who cares? Ahmed Best has gone on record publicly saying he considered killing himself. He was very close to suicide. Right. That's the damage that George Lucas caused.

Has any other actor played a role so regrettable that they've publicly said many times, you know, I contemplated murdering myself based on how people reacted to that. And your wife had like worked with him and said he's like the sweetest, hardest working guy in the world. And I have a little regret, and our fans bring it up sometimes where they were like, they were really hard on him. We were too hard on him back in the day.

You know, it's not his fault as much as it is you know, the writer and director of this character. It was his big leg. It was his big leg. It was his big leg. It was his big leg. If I can bring that up again. Yeah.

Yeah. Still not past it. I think... One of my first acting roles. Oh, of course. Big Leg also, my Big Leg. Big Leg's your Big Leg? Big Leg was my Big Leg.

You went into Big Leg thinking like, this is going to be it for me. Possible recurring. You're one of Parnell's students. Right. Yeah. Big Lake was my Big Lake. Of course,

there's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have early success. Now, I did bring up Big Lake. Yes. Not necessarily because I'm... What fits in a Big Lake? I was just going to say, it is a segue towards Big Fish

if you guys want to take it. We're taking it. Okay. Because sometimes directors have massive success early on in their career and give a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Yeah. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. Sure.

And this is a miniseries on the films, of course, of Tim Burton. The only thing we've been talking about this episode. Right. It's called Podward Scissor Cast. And Big Fish is, I think, a big fulcrum point in his career yeah it's about the midway point of his career yes movie wise yeah it's the midway point and for me it creates a lot of interesting sliding doors questions um okay you mean like you think if this thing had been a huge hit like maybe tim burton's the latter half of his career looks

different i think so i kind of think so. I don't know exactly what it would have been. Yeah. But I get the sense in this movie that he's really trying to stretch himself. And then I think the problem is when you have a guy like that who out of the gate makes movies that are so huge,

his bar for success is so high, that something like this that was kind of received as like a double or a triple and like a well-liked movie that did okay yeah it's just like fuck i gotta go back and do like a remake of something now can i ask because you guys know more than i do yeah i obviously know about a lot of burton's work but i'm not a completist. Is this his biggest departure from gothic vibe? I would argue so. Hot topic.

My big take on this movie is that this is the only time he's made a film where there are scenes that take place entirely within the real world. Because even Ed Wood is such a heightened version of the real world. Every other movie he has made has fantastical

elements. It's very stylized. It's like Batman. In hospitals and homes and people drinking water. Those are totally normal scenes. Quiet human moments. Right, and to me as a Burton obsessed kid, I was like, this is really interesting to see Tim Burton try to shoot a normal dialogue scene

between actors. Sure. You know? Right. And try to ground that, which I between actors. Sure. You know? Right. And try to ground that, which I think works in certain scenes better than others. If you got Billy Crudup in a scene, you've got a problem. It's weird. When I was young,

when this movie came out, I was all in on Crudup's performance, and watching it now, I find it very difficult. I did on a, I'm going to go on record and say, I unabashedly love this movie. You asked to talk with us about it.

Yeah. I mean, when you, when you put it out there, I did pick it and I loved it to the degree that I was shocked when I started hearing people, cause I don't know if this is universal, but at least in my circle, I've heard people talk shit and say, it's like a hallmark card and say sure that it's a gooey performances are bad yeah and i was shocked because i felt like i had witnessed i will say we haven't introduced a classic oh chris gethard's our guest today hey how you doing everybody buy my new book lose well ben just wrote on a piece of paper introduce chris cool it was blank check power scissor cast

big fish Chris Catherin we got it all out of the way time check 45 minutes yeah it's about 40 minutes I loved it I loved this movie

and I thought that I thought I was shocked that people didn't when this movie came out did you see it in theaters I did and I have actually

I have a story that I don't know if it's amazing to the outside. But for me, the circumstances by which I saw this movie, I will never forget. I will never forget. I want to hear that. Well, okay. So. Shit.

I've always been like a very big Jersey guy. If you know my work at all, you've heard me ramble about New Jersey. And I lived there for the first ramble about New Jersey. And I lived there for the first 23 years of my life. And it was a place that I really loved. It was a place where I felt very safe and it was a big piece of my identity. When I started doing comedy in New York, I was 19 and I kind of became known as like, oh, that's that kid who takes the train in from Jersey. And he's so much younger than the other people. And I think people liked watching me figure it out. And then I would get back on the train and go back to Rutgers.

And I was this kid from Jersey when I was 23, I got hired for my first ever job in Los Angeles. Really my first outside of doing like some spot acting gigs, like, you know, dressing up for some of those Conan bits. Was this for Crossballs? Crossballs.

Yeah. So I got this job on a Thursday and was told that I had to be there on Monday. I'd never set foot in California in my life. I think I'd never been further west than Chicago. And all of a sudden it was like, you have to move out of your house where I still lived with two of my college roommates.

You have to quit your job and just have to go. And the job I was working at the time, I worked at a magazine called Weird New Jersey. I'd worked there for three or four years. And if you, if you, most people would not know that magazine, but I will tell you anybody who grew up in New Jersey, who's around my age or younger will say it's an institution. It's an institution. And if you think about sort of the ethos of Weird New Jersey, it is sort of local legends and myth-making with a pretty clear policy of who cares if it's true, if it's a fun story. And a lot of these stories are rooted in some shred of fact

and then grow out of control. So I fly out to California. I quit my job there. My boss was like, oh my, he later was like, you can always give two weeks. They pressured you into not, just give two weeks. If they're not going to give you that, you should be wary of working with them.

I was like, you're right, you're right. But I didn't know that. I was young. It felt like my shot. So I move out to California. This was before there was a UCB theater there. There wasn't much

of a comedy scene. The comedy scene that there was was well beyond my experience point to participate in it. it was like big shots only.

Yeah, I wasn't going to go up on stage at Largo at the age of 23. Right. And I was shy. I was scared. I was depressed.

I'd been on medication for a year. This was in the early 2000s. I had all these side effects. All of a sudden, my mom was terrified that I was going that far away when I was in that state. And I had a friend who I knew, I think two or three people. Yeah, I knew three people who lived in California at the time.

And one of them told me, why don't you come stay with me at first? And he lived, I believe, if I remember right, it was Huntington Beach. And he told me that was part of LA. And it is a very, very far. I believe it was about a two-hour drive. But I would be you where I'd be like, Huntington Beach, sure.

That's nearby, right? Yeah. And I think it was Huntington. I'm not sure. Whichever beach it was. It was one of those beaches, you know the name. And my buddy shows up, lets me into his house. And he's like hey

i gotta go and he doesn't even hang out with me sure and i'm terrified and i'm overwhelmed i'll walk on the boardwalk i eat a fish taco for the first time in my life one of the loneliest and most overwhelming cities to be in especially if you don't know anything about it southern california is an isolating and you feel it immediately. Incredibly isolating. And the idea of going out for a walk, the city is just kind of like, you can't really do that. Like kind of laughing at you. Yeah, I got one quick question for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The fish taco you ate, what was the size of that thing? It was pretty small. I was shocked that it wasn't a big fish taco. No, it was not a big fish taco. It was a small fish taco. I like that you thought that was the moral story where I was going. I didn't think that was the end of the story, but I thought that might be a little fun moment in the journey.

She said fish. No, but that first night, the first night I spent away from home, and I mean home in a big sense. I get it. I get it. Like my Samwise moment of I've never stepped this far away from my home. That's a very impactful scene. Your Mount Doom was seeing little bit. Seeing Big Fish

in Los Angeles? Well, I went to a movie theater, bought a ticket for the next movie that was playing. It was Big Fish. And here I am watching a movie that's A,

about stories that don't necessarily need to be true and why don't you just buy in their fun. It was my whole life that I had just walked away from kind of summed up.

And then also about this character that's like, no, you got to kind of go out and build your own legend. And you have to go into places that don't make sense for you. And you have to go into environments that aren't the small place you come from. And that doesn't mean you can't show pride in being from a small place or a beat up place.

All these things that the movie wears on its sleeve. I sat there in the theater and I was so scared, but I just cried so hard. And it gave me a lot of, it felt like a weight had been taken off my shoulder of like, okay, I made the right choice. You got to take some big swings, and you got to kind of go on your own hero's journey.

And you got to love stories. you gotta love stories so like Tim Burton was my guy I for the first like 10 movies

was like or 9 I was like hasn't missed I'm in the corner everything he does this guy speaks my language my whole relationship to movies

is evolving around my like interest in his movies and like understanding that someone makes films and all this sort of stuff. And then Planet of the Apes is just this JFK assassination for me.

Was that back to back? This is two years later. His last project was Planet of the Apes. I fell asleep to Planet of the Apes. It's a boring movie. About 11 minutes in and I slept through fell asleep to Planet of the Apes. It's a boring movie. About 11 minutes in and I slept through the whole thing.

I'm not kidding. It's a horrific film. I believe you. It's a horrific film. There's nothing that would rouse you once you fall asleep. The movie's just boring.

I didn't realize that historically this was the bounce back from Planet of the Apes. Right. So for me, the stakes of this movie were like,

this felt like Michael Jordan coming out of retirement. Like I was like, I want to believe for you, for me, I said the stakes of this movie for me. I just wanted to triple it.

Look, we should all just be happy. He made a sports analogy. Exactly. Exactly. He came out of retirement. The one thing I know how to reference in sports is anything related to the plot of space jam. But you know, so Planet of the Apes felt

like his baseball career and I was like I want to believe that was so you're saying it's him coming out of retirement the first time where right where he comes out and he's just I'm back right two word statement and he's great again like Planet of the Apes I was like is Tim Burton gonna be playing minor league baseball for the rest of his career like is that guy gone right

and then Big Fish from the moment they announced it I was like this sounds different. This sounds like an evolution. This was John August, who, you know... You gotta... We do need to mention, you gotta worship at the altar

of John August a little bit, right? Well, so, he reads the manuscript for this movie before it was published. Right. His father had just died, and he was like,

I need this. You mean the book? He reads the manuscript of the book? Yes. And it was unpublished? It was unpublished. It was to be published. Right. But it had not hit the market yet. He read it. His father had died and he was like, I get this so fucking hard. He had written Go

which was like his big, hot, calling card spec script at Columbia. Went to Columbia and was like, please fucking buy this. Worked so hard to try to adapt it. The book is far more unstructured and just sort of episodic. There's not as much of a spine, I think around it.

Sure. And, um, he was trying to make it with Steven Spielberg and Jack Nicholson. Right. That was the plan. It was like, this was going to be like a list of, this is one of those Spielberg and Jack Nicholson. That was the plan. It was like, this was going to be like

a list of a list. This is one of those Spielbergs that came close, like where Spielberg was going to do it and then he decided to make Catch Me If You Can. It was, right.

This was going to be the thing right after Minority Report. It makes so much sense because the, who's better at. Right. Spielberg seems

almost ludicrously like a match for this. Right. Like an unapologetic nostalgia feel. Right. About dad's right Spielberg seems almost ludicrously like a match for this perfect like an unapologetic nostalgia feel right about dads at a distance

with your dad and you know and the magic of storytelling it's so interesting it is it's a Spielberg movie it is it's not a Tim Burton movie

I agree outside of a character very important character that I just want to say we have to talk about at one point Dane DeVito the werewolf no better

better although so close yeah interesting Mr. Soggy Bottomito the werewolf? No, better. Better. Although so close. Interesting. Mr. Soggy Bottom is the kid fisto of this movie. I'm obsessed with Mr. Soggy Bottom. I mean, if you wanted to sum up Tim Burton

in one image, it's Mr. Soggy Bottom. Praying. A single tear running down his cheek having opened up his chest to reveal a silver gun. That is incredible. It's my favorite part of the movie.

We'll get to it. We'll get to it. Deep Roy's a legend. This is the first Deep Roy appearance in a... No, no. He's my favorite part of the movie. We'll get to it. We'll get to it. Deep Roy's a legend. This is the first Deep Roy appearance. No. No? He's in something else. Is he?

I forgot that he was uncredited. Yeah. I think he's under makeup so you don't realize it's him or something. Deep Roy, who was the Yoda stand-in. Yeah. Is that true? Oh, yeah. No.

He's the Soggy Bottom stand-in for Yoda. He was on what? The prequels? He was Droopy McCool. No, in the original. In the original? When you see like- That was Mr. Soggy Bottom!

He was the stand-in. The stand-in. Yeah, I know he wasn't... I mean, it's a puppet. I know he wasn't the real Droopy McCool. Oh, no. Droopy McCool, he operated. He did.

He was a puppeteer. He was Droopy McCool. I had no idea we were going to come that full circle. He was an Ewok. That's on his IMDb. He was an Ewok. It's on... Yeah, it's on...

His IMDb is basically like, as is true for a lot of little people, like any fantasy movie you've heard of, basically. You know what I mean? And he's just, he was like a background guy. But let me see. He had some real marquee characters. He's in Planet of the Apes.

He's one of the ape kids. He's a gorilla kid. He's the one that I think a fucking Helen Bonham Carter chastises. Also, just in case we lose our train of thought with him, I have to point out, his scenes in Eastbound and Down are so funny. Yes.

Oh, yeah. That's him, right? Oh, my God, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. That dude, I'm Yoda bitch, and then rips off the fake mustache and says, I always carry two. Yeah.

That scene, I rewound it about 10 times in a row the first time I saw it and I cried laughing. He's a really good actor. We're gonna get to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory which is like his masterpiece where he played every Oompa Loompa. But I love that guy. That shit bugged me out though. And where Tim Burton demanded that they pay Deep Roy a million

dollars which I love. Really? Deep Roy pocketed a cool mil. Like he was just like this guy's been a fucking journey man. We're gonna have him play 80 Oompa Loompas. Pony up and give him $1 million. He played how many? 165. Yeah, give him a fucking mil.

He played 165 characters in one movie? Yeah, where, like, and they had to, like, photograph him doing every move. Soggy bottom. Bring in the heat. Fucking soggy bottom. All right. So, this, Planet of the Apes felt like, fuck, have we lost Tim Burton? Right.

It's sort of one of those things where he was on such a run that him getting off the run, you're like, oh, is that, is he just, that's it. He's sidetracked forever. Right. And then the Spielberg thing, the analogy was kind of interesting because Spielberg was a guy where for so long they were like, he's so kinetic. He's so much style. He's so caught up in his childhood. When's he going to grow up and make a real movie? Which the critics of Tim Burton

in the 80s and 90s would always say that. Like, we get it, you can create things, but when are you going to sit down and tell a real story? Which I always found kind of reductive. I think now, in retrospect, people are like, we should have given that guy more credit when he was doing this wacko shit. Because no one does wacko shit as well as him.

Because before it, we're talking Beetlejuice, Batman, Edward Scissorhands. Kiwi's Big Adventure. Kiwi's Big Adventure. Was Nightmare Before Christmas before it? Doesn't direct that,

but that's his story. Still from his world. Yes, right. His run in order is Kiwi, Beetlejuice, Batman, Edward Scissorhands,

Batman Returns, Ed Wood, Mars Attacks, Sleepy Hollow, Planet of the Apes. Damn. So not everyone likes Mars Attacks and Sleepy Hollow.

So for some people, maybe Burton, The Roses, will think that. Right, and Sleepy Hollow did well. Mars Attacks didn't. But for me, it was like. But Mars Attacks, I think,

has aged well. I think it's a masterpiece. Yeah. Yeah, Mars Attacks has aged very nicely. Ed Wood, was Ed Wood a more, would you say that was closer to like a less fantasy? Yeah, it's a mature film, and it makes no money.

And I think it's his best movie. He flirted with it. But it's still, that movie's very much like a weird comedy. It's playing a weird tonal game. I think that's his best film. I think the film's incredible. Right. But you go like, well, there's like a clear lateral move

of like Tim Burton making a highly stylized film about people who make highly stylized films. Right, right, right. And then this felt like, is this Tim Burton trying to do the Spielberg evolution of just like, I'm going to sort of make the movies about reckoning with my sort of permanent state of adolescence. Yeah. My obsession with fantasy worlds, you know? Yeah. Now, at the time, I remember feeling like,

bullet dodge, we don't want Spielberg making this. This is so in his wheelhouse that he's going to go so sappy with it. But this is weirdly the period, as we've covered on this podcast, where Spielberg starts getting really dark. Like, the fact that he makes Catch Me If You Can instead, which is the other, my weird relationship with my father, you can't go home again movie, but it's a movie that is, like, so sad.

Then he starts making some of, like, really grim dystopian yeah sci-fi right minot reports the year the same year right so you could argue that tim burton and steven spielberg kind of switched sort of tried to flop cultural roles for one year right he becomes a really tortured sort of dystopian filmmaker right and then tim burton is now maybe seeing like can i move into the spielberg stage the other big thing here is uh in between plan of the apes in this movie he ends his relationship with lisa marie which lasted for the better part of a decade shacks up with helen bottom carter she gets pregnant he's about to have his first child and both of his parents die you You know. I know all of this. He does proceed, I will say,

a bold move to, I believe, gives his wife three roles. Three roles? You could argue three separate roles. Yes.

Right? The witch, the young girl, and then... Well, she plays... She's really two roles, I guess. Yeah.

It's the witch and then the real person. But plays the real person at two different ages. Correct. Yeah, that's true. That's true. She plays the sort of vaguely fantasy version of adult Janney and then plays the real person at two different ages. Correct. Yeah, that's true. That's true. She plays the sort of

vaguely fantasy version of adult Janney and then plays the... Right. Because those are also two very different tones of performance when she has to work against...

Well, initially when she's the witch you're like, oh, he gave his girlfriend a cameo in the movie. And then when she comes back you're like, oh, she's like

the dramatic spine of the movie. Right. In the most Tim Burton-y part of the movie is the witch. Yes Burton-y part of the movie the witch yes for sure yeah but so this to me felt like is he gonna like get it back is he gonna go

right back in the pocket but also grow also evolve does this become a turning point where like Planet of the Apes is the movie that makes him take a long hard look in the mirror and go like who does Tim Burton want to be for the next 10 years who's Tim Burton in the 2000s and I saw this movie and was like, unqualified triumph. I don't think I've

told you this. I walked out of this theater and said, this is my number one favorite movie of all time. Wow. Didn't you also see it 10 times or something? I saw it, I think, I was trying to do the math on it. At least eight in theaters. That's crazy. Because I don't cry at movies. I saw this, it destroyed me so

hard that I was like, I need to go back. I need another hit of that thing. I cry in movies. I'm a very emotional movies. I saw this. I cry at movies all the time. It destroyed me so hard that I was like, I need to go back. I need another hit of that thing. I cry at movies. I'm a very emotional person. I'm an easy crier. This movie ruins me. And I always know it's going to. You do.

But now, see, I feel like the sense I've gotten from our pre-conversations. David's a little more reserved against this movie. Is that you are a little bit more in the camp of. Well, can I talk about my experience with Big Fish? Yeah, because I just want to put one more... Because Chris had this incredibly profound, like, you know, sort of... Life changes.

Growing up is, you know, complicated but ultimately necessary story. You gave us a biographer's level of detail about where Tim Burton's life was at at the time. Right. And my level of investment, my mental sanity being reliant on whether or not he could pull it off. How old were you when this was, 2003?

14? This is my freshman year of high school. I'm 23. I'm 17. I just want to, before you get to your relationship, state the big elephant in the room. My relationship's not going to be that big, by the way. No, but there's the big elephant we have to acknowledge, which is we're recording this four days after Albert Finney died.

Albert Finney, who's maybe your favorite leading man in the history of cinema, is an actor you're very emotionally attached to. He's my dad. I didn't want to say that before you. He is. He's the working class English guy who kind of jumped with the ranks.

As an English actor who's very crucial as a star when he's young, as like, oh, this is a more working class guy. This is like a salt of the earth guy. Which in the 60s in Britain oh this is a more working class guy this is like a salt to the earth guy which in the 60s in britain is right my father's working class guy when i went to see saturday night sunday mornings you were like you should know that's my dad's movie right right like that is my that's the movie that my father sat me down and was like this is the movie about me right right so like david was introduced to young albert finney as his father saying this is my analog in

the finney rules man finney's always like I love every phase of Finney I love this phase where he's you know he's an old guy and he's a bit of a ham he's terrific in the film

was he nominated? he was not even nominated and Tim Robbins wins for Mystic River which is not a good performer and you could also say cause we have all sort of

we've been talking in very manic fashion about Crudup's weirdness. Finney saves, Finney might save this movie. He certainly saves any scene he's in with Crudup. Like Crudup is like walking around the set smashing it.

And Finney's like, no, come on, don't do that. You know, like, sorry, carry on, carry on. No, no, no. I think it's, I need to hear the dissenting opinion. Oh, okay. Well, all right. All right. So for me, I'm an Oscar watcher.

As you know, I'm a big Oscars fan, especially when I'm younger. Yeah. And this movie, when it was coming out, everyone was like, this is it. Burton's making the leap. Like he's going to get Oscar nominations. This movie is going to be huge. This is going to be like when Spielberg sort of finally got anointed. Like it'll be the big moment where like hollywood is like burton

you've made a grown-up movie exactly you've been a weirdo and you've made your money now we recognize you grown-up movie yeah and so then when i saw this movie i had the reaction that i feel like a lot of people had which was like that thing is a fucking slog you know it's long like the hype was so deafening and like you know it's okay but like it wasn't like i think i was expecting like to be like spielberg i guess like to be blown away with wonder you know like all these like color these sets and this like you know right all this imagination on screen and i was like, that thing's kind of a slog. The ending is kind of amazing and like a Fellini movie

and sort of just hits you in the gut and you're sort of like... Pays out like a slot machine. Double though, it pays out like a slot machine. It fucking pays out like a slot machine, that ending. We weren't recording when I said it. I believe I said earlier it was a three-point shot and you actually said,

no, that was a four-point shot with the way that it saved that moment. It's an LJ moment. In the Big Three Basketball League, you can hit a four-point shot if you're standing in a specific circle on the court. Oh, I thought you meant he got fouled and made the foul shot. Or it's the LJ, yes.

That's how close it was to disaster, though, for you? Not disaster, but it was more like I was very mixed on it. I was sort of like, is this too syrupy? It's so fucking long. It's not of like, this is like, is this too syrupy? And like, it's so fucking long. It's not that long, but like, you know,

it's a solid two hours. Two 15, I think. Right. Two 10. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm just like, and then the ending destroys me.

And I'm like, I can't like this movie just because the ending's that good. Right. You know what I mean? And for my whole life, the rest of my life, I have always wrestled with like, do I just like the ending? And is that good right you know what i mean and for my whole life the rest of my life i have always wrestled with like do i just like the ending and is that even does it even work that way if i like the ending so much the movie must work for me in some way where it's like it's laying the track

so when i know what i mean like you know so the ending wouldn't work for me if i didn't like the movie at all like you can't just make a bad movie and then at the end it's like, you know, death. And I'm like, oh, you know, like it works for me. When I was 14, I was all in. I was taking all that they got. Right. When I watch it now, I've watched it twice in the last two years. Right. You rewatched it.

Not that long. Right. And I was like, oh, this is the first time I've rewatched it a little while. And I see lumpiness for the first time. I was so madly like, you know, Edward Bloom, Time Stops, Popcorn in the Air and Love with this movie where I was like, you know, Wreck-It Ralph style, I will brook no criticism. You can't say anything bad

about this movie. It's magic. It works. You're a cynical bastard, right? And in the last two times I've watched it, I see a ton of problems. I see a lot of things that totally work for me and I'm watching it and it's lumpy and I'm going like, fuck, do I like overrate this thing in the mind and then you get to the last 15 minutes

and it's not one of those things where just like well this is 15 minutes of good filmmaking but it's one of those things where that only works if the movie if set up everything properly and it's one of those things where you go even the things that feel like they kind of don't work in the movie up until that point

end up lending power to the ending, bizarrely. That's why I use the slot machine analogy, because it's literally all the quarters you've been dumping in. Let me ask you guys, too. When we're talking about the ending, there's the river. I'm talking about... And then there's the funeral.

I go 15-minute mark. He wakes up. We're talking about those in... He wakes up in the hospital, that continuous... What feels like a symphony. That's talking about those in the one-two punch. That's when we're in a long distance race and it has that moment of it's time to fucking get my kick in and go for the ending and you see it accelerate towards the

finish line. On the soundtrack, that is one 12 minute track. From the time he wakes up to the end of the movie and I think of that section. Do you own the big fish soundtrack? Chris, how long have we of that section Chris in how many media do you own it though

that's my question how many times have you purchased it do you have it on CD I bought it on vinyl I don't own it on vinyl I bought it on CD I manually

uploaded it onto my iTunes circa 2006 and still have that in the cloud you guys will like that side check since we're talking

sound checks didn't plan on talking about this today I was in the cloud. You guys will like that. Okay, sidetracks. We're talking soundtracks. Didn't plan on talking about this today. I was in the car recently and I had my iPod on and I was with Allie and it was on shuffle and a track came up. It was an instrumental track.

Sure. And Allie was like, what the hell is this? And I said, oh, it's, I listened to it on my way to jujitsu class to get pumped up it's the last of the mohican soundtrack right trevor jones my wife just paused and went that is some midlife crisis i i listened to the last mohican soundtrack

the best track, yes. I've talked about this. I listen to movie music all the time, mostly because I need something while I'm writing that's not vocal. Now, can I ask you, off of Griffin's point, I do feel like, watching it back, just a few nights ago in preparation for this,

the length is in part because there's all these little vignettes, right? For sure. Griffin's arguing that the ending proves the necessity of them. See, even I, an unabashed defender of this movie, is there a fun topic of discussion

to be had? Which vignette would you lose? There's no question which vignette you lose. Really? No question. Because I debate them heavily in my mind. There's no fucking question. And I would be sad to lose it because I think the payoff is nice, but there's no question what you lose. There's no

question which vignette you lose. I think I know. There's one vignette where I'm like, hmm. When I'm watching it. There's one vignette where you're like, hmm. Okay, can I guess? Can I guess? Sure. And I'm going to go in the order of ones where I'm like, when I'm watching it. There's one thing yet where you're like, hmm. Okay, can I guess? Can I guess? Sure.

I'm going to go in the order of ones where I know it's not them. Okay. It's not the giant. No. Can't lose the giant. Can't lose the giant. Giant is incredible. Rules.

You can't lose Soggy Bottom. Yeah, I mean, no way. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I'm going to say. David's playing close to the bat. I'm enjoying this now. He's not tipping off his hands.

You can't lose Spectre. No. Him wandering into this weird magical... We should talk about Spectre. Yeah, there's issues. You can't lose it. No. We have to talk about Spectre.

Wander through the woods down the forbidden trail into this perfect town that seems so creepy. Right. Can't lose that. No, I love that part. But although we have to talk about it. Him in the army? That's what you lose.

I kind of agree. That's got to go. You lose the conjoined twins. I don't think that's got to go, but I think you need to cut some. I like the twins because I like the eventual reveal that they're just regular twins. They're just two ladies, right? That's a lovely moment. I think that's a lovely moment.

I don't like him with an English to Asian dictionary and jumping into this like ventriloquist where I'm just like, I get that it's a tall tale and that it's a little, you know, it's supposed to be inflated. What's going on here? Siamese twins. As opposed to the Steven Spielberg version of the movie, you remember like, oh, right. Tim Burton is inherently a comedic filmmaker. Sure.

And he cannot turn down what he thinks is a fun gag. Right. I would argue. Hit me. That when you were at that funeral. I agree. I agree with this. He starts to realize that all these things are true.

Yeah. But not as true. Yeah. That there's a middle ground that he never gave his father credit for. This is why I go from like. He never bothered to ask. Right. I drop down the levels of crying from like crying to sobbing.

Which I will also say in rewatching it too, the idea that all these people were close enough to Finney, they were close enough to Ed Bloom to travel back for his funeral, but that none of them came back throughout the entire course of Billy Crudup's life to visit and maybe get him to chill out and realize some of this was based in fact is a flaw. That's actually a fair point. I don't usually think about it.

That being said, I think that the conjoined twins showing up to you, everyone's amazement and then separating where you go, I think it's amazing. That was the exaggeration. I'm just saying if you're asking me which one to kill

see I disagree I would put something out there and maybe your love who are you gonna kill well it's a question for you guys because you

are far more obviously film connoisseurs than I am I would argue that if it wasn't name actors you lose

either Danny DeVito, at least for the length that he has, or Steve Buscemi as the bank robber. See, Buscemi I love, and I like that the character goes through weird stages. I think the DeVito character maybe is a little too much. I don't think you give him as much time to tease out the here's a fact about your loved one and the werewolf.

I think it's a little too much. The werewolf thing is crazy because it's sort of like, and it turned out he was a werewolf and you're like, it did? And they don't bring it up again. But Danny DeVito wandering naked. I like that. Out of the woods. I like that. That from behind shot and the soggy bottom tear

and gun moment is to me brilliant. The way they stretched out that I worked once a year I got a i worked once a year i got a fact once a year i got a fact once a year i got a fact i don't think you give that half as much time if it's not danny devito who no if you remember back then too i think he wasn't i mean his peak was in the 80s early 90s oh yeah no at this point he's full character actor he's american legend like this is before always Sunny where it kind of becomes post-modern

I'm gonna fuck around in this next part of my career and I wouldn't say it's quite as cool as Bill Murray showing up in Rushmore but it's a similar thing of like

oh it's that dude we used to love doing like a smaller one-off thing you know what Tim Burton said what's that? you know Danny DeVito plays the ringmaster

hold on I just want to say Griffin no I do not know what Tim Burton said you know what Tim Burton said. What's that? You know, Danny DeVito plays the ringmaster. Wait, hold on. I just want to say, Griffin. No, I do not know what Tim Burton said. You know what he said, famously. Danny DeVito plays the ringmaster. In his address to Congress. In Tim Burton's. We must tear down this wall.

Danny DeVito plays the ringmaster in the upcoming Tim Burton Dumbo movie. And apparently Tim Burton just called him and said, Danny, we have to complete our circus trilogy. Right. Penguin. Oh my God. Penguin, Big Fish. Werewolf Man. Dumbo.

Is that true? He's done three Top Hat movies with Teddy DeVito leading a circus of outcasts. I did not realize that. So it's his only way that he likes to use Dan DeVito, that and Rude Gambler. Rude Gambler. Rude Gambler is the outlier. Right, Mars Attacks. He plays a character in Mars Attacks called Rude Gambler.

Dan DeVito is fourth built above the title in Mars Attacks for a character who has no proper name and less than six lines of dialogue. And just says, Tom Jones, it ain't unusual. It ain't unusual! And gets blasted to smithereens with a laser gun. We already talked about this for 75 minutes.

I do think too, there's something that makes me giggle so hard about like, so you're at the funeral, which is beautiful to me. And the giant, he's not 15 feet tall, but he's seven feet tall. The twins are there.

They're not conjoined, but they're twins. How much of that is true? Danny DeVito is just a dude with scraggly hair he does have the like perspex cane like you know like the clear cane but you also go like is this guy like a hundred

now you know because like you and McGregor turned into Albert Finney DeVito just stayed DeVito the whole time as we think about it all of them did right well you go McGregor. He's at least got gray hair, but yeah. McGregor at the beginning of the film is playing much younger.

He's playing high school, early 20s. My girlfriend was like, he's supposed to be 18? And he's 32 at this point. But it's a tall tale, David. Can I just say something also that distracted me upon the rewatch? That's just condescending and pithy.

And I don't remember this from other films I've seen him in. Does Ewan McGregor, especially in those young man scenes in Big Fish, kind of weirdly have meth teeth? Something's going on. He's got some scraggly teeth. Like, was he a real heavy smoker or something? I mean, not to double down

on stereotypes about British dental care, but it is poor. But it's not that. Finney has weird teeth, too. Finney's got sort of like... It's a young man. Finney grew up in like... He was born in like the 30s. Like, that... Britain genuinely had horrible dental care.

Yeah, I feel like with McGregor... Albert Finney's dentist was that guy in the bathroom at Port-A-Court. I'm sorry. I had to. Listen, I've seen McGregor before this and after this and even later in the same movie. You think he got his teeth done? Yeah. But even later on in Big Fish, but the scenes, particularly like the daffodil field scene,

when he has that big grin on his face, I was actually distracted where I was like, his teeth look like weirdly gray or something in a way they don't look for the rest of this entire movie. Maybe he was just like chain smoking up a storm. He could have been. This is in between Attack of the Clones

and Revenge of the Sith. Oh, is it? This is that period where they're like, I guess Ewan McGregor is like a major studio leading man. Well, it's also I mean, here he's being cast I feel like firmly in his Moulin Rouge role where it's like, he is a very pretty sweetie pie.

And Down with Love is the other one. This is him doing like high sort of stylized charm. And let's quadruple down on him doing an American accent even though he is not good at it. He's not. And adding in an Alabama twang this time. But see, I'm into that.

Like, that's why I think this works. I think Ewan McGregor is awful at a normal American accent. He's not good. I think he gets the latitude. He's done it dozens of times. I think the latitude he gets in this movie is he's playing a fantasy version of an actor already doing an over-the-top Southern drama.

Yeah, you're giving him the laugh. I am. I'm going to say something since we're on the topic of the Southerners. Crudup doesn't have a Southern accent. I know. Doesn't even try. He's just, yeah. Sounds like Mastercard ads.

He's so in Mastercard ads. He is so underplaying it, except for any scene where he has to pick up a phone or do some boring business. And that, I'm like, Crudup, chill he has to pick up a phone or do some boring business. And that, I'm like, chill out. Just pick up the phone like a regular person. I'm a rewatch, I can admit. He does just not seem like a human being.

Scenes where his intonation is abnormal to the degree you can't believe that Tim Burton didn't pull him aside and go like, speak like a normal fucking human being. What are you doing in my movie? We were saying before we started recording that the thing, and I feel like I've heard him say this in interviews, especially this time period, this was like his game he liked to play with himself

was he would like look at a normal line of dialogue and try to figure out the weirdest way to say it. Kronop said that? Yeah. People wonder why Billy Kronop didn't have a movie star career. He would actually say that. Right. And it's not even like a Nicolas Cage thing where it's like,

I want to find the most interesting take on my character that's unexpected. He was like, I will look at a line and try to break down what the obvious syntax would be and then put the emphasis on the wrong words and try to make it sound natural. And it's like just too much work, dude. He sucks. Okay. Here's my problem with the movie.

I think he kills the ending. Okay. He's good in the end. You just said the sentence. Here is my problem with the movie. I'm excited for this. Because, you know, it's that I need to be a little on his side,

and I am at no point on his side. The whole movie is about a shithead son coming home to his dad and being like, you fucking asshole with your stories, and you're like, what else did the dad do? And he's like,

I don't know, he wasn't around a lot, and you're like, what else did the dad do? And he's like, I don't know. He wasn't around a lot. And you're like, that's it? That's all you're mad about? You charmed everybody and made them have fun at my wedding with your fucking speech that charmed the room. This is, I have to be on your side for two hours? So here's my take. But do you?

You weirdly don't, more than any other movie I've ever seen, you, the actual hero, and by the John August script notes definition of the hero, you don't have to worry about this person at all. I kind of agree with you because it is amazing. The movie ends and the movie's moral is kind of like, relax, you're dead. Lightened up. Yeah. Wasn't so crazy. Once he gets to him telling the story, suddenly Crudup is just in the pocket, unfussy, not overplaying it, doing it well. He knows to

sort of show up for that scene. He's not an idiot. He knows this is important. Pretty tight close-up, and he's like, he's killing that. When I was 14, and I was all in on this movie, that performance worked for me. When I watch it now, and I have my troubles, I think they mostly come

from the fact that I have such a hard time dealing with Crudup because even, like Cotillard, you're so much on board with. I forgot. She is so charming.

This is her first American film. And her linking up with the dad immediately also underlines how much. She immediately turns on him. She's like, this is the guy you were complaining about?

You were complaining about this guy forever? Oh, I could turn off the TV. This guy is a death door. He's so charming. Pour a cup of warm cocoa and listen to these guys' yarns. Hey, dickhead, have you not noticed that your dad is played by Albert Finney? You lucky son of a bitch.

Now, can I say something that I think, Griffin, you'll agree with? And David, I have a feeling it might infuriate you based on what you've said. And because of your role in your job as a cultural commentator. I thought this when I first saw it. And even in the rewatch, I stand by it. As I was watching this movie and its dedication towards being sort of a Southern movie, the Southern exaggerators, kind of this archetype of that.

I think very much of the American South of the tall tale. He literally brings back the deliverance kid. You know, the banjo guy in this movie is the kid from that. True. Yeah. Oh, that's me.

That being said, when I watched this movie, I was like, Oh, Huckleberry Finn to kill a mockingbird. Sure. Big fish. You're putting it all the way up there.

Yeah. The idea of the kids who get themselves so worked up about Boo Radley, and sure, Boo Radley is this recluse. That's the tradition that the story is in. But he's a damaged guy with a good heart. Huckleberry Finn who tells these tales and lies to get, you know, and Tom Sawyer even more so maybe. Watch out for that. Telling the lies

to get what he wants but he's also like a devil may care charmer. Sure. It's an archetype I love that I feel like, oh, has there been

a cinematic entry into that? I don't think so. No, because it's tricky. And in this movie. And the great southern novels, right?

A lot of the great, I mean, there's southern gothic and this is sort of the opposite of novels right a lot of the i mean there's southern gothic and this is sort of the opposite of that it's more the sort of southern fairy tale stuff where you're like can we talk about what's going on you're like in the movies like that we gotta put that over there we can't talk about it we can't talk about reality let's talk about like these lovely you know sort of magical communities and like the trees the we did say we have to talk about specter we gotta talk about what the fuck is going on in specter i just want to say there's some rules is it good or evil that's what i kind of like about it you're talking about that it's

like there's something we should dig a little deeper in the second once he goes back sure when she's saying like you're saying this town's not going to change, I'm like, right, let's talk about it. But then they just don't kind of talk about it. I just want to say, Chris, because you're such a good storyteller and you were, at this point, so well-oiled in when to take your dramatic beats in any sort of story

you're telling or point you're making. When you were building up that defense, I thought you were genuinely going to say big fish huckleberry, hound. You took a long beat in between, and I thought that was going to be your defense, was relating this huckleberry hound. Wow. And I was strapped in, but I didn't know if you could land that one.

I wish I had landed that punchline. Huckleberry. Griffin, do you know anyone? Because you have known me pretty much since I started performing before we were friends. Yes, I was a big fan of yours from the time you started performing. Does it make sense to you?

I feel like, I don't know, clearly in terms of legend building with a wink and a nod, is there any comedian who came out of New York that has done that more than me in an Ed Blum-esque way? No, no.

And I didn't even realize because we just sort of threw to you. I sort of am an Ed Blum-esque guy who knows how to tell a story that's true and leave out all the context. That's pretty much all my stand-up. And everybody who started liking me 10, 12 years ago, that's what they liked about me. And I literally, like the same year that I'm like seeing Big Fish eight times in theaters, my friend and I are scouring the UCB website to figure out any show

that you're in because I'm trying to explain to people like, this guy has these crazy stories that don't make sense. Sure. Like I don't understand what his life is

in between these stories. Right. In the Big Fish kind of way. Like, you guys would be fascinated by this. So there's a story we covered for Weird New Jersey. It's in the woods

of Northern Virginia. People for many decades have been telling tales of someone called the Bunny Man who's a man who dresses in a pink bunny suit and attacks people

with an axe. Some people say that he's an escapee from a lunatic asylum. Some people say that he killed all these rabbits and stitched together

this really fucked up, not pink, like fucked up looking bunny suit and all this stuff. And it's a great story. It's a great story. But what I love the most about it is you can find a newspaper article from the early 70s where there were two people making out in a car in a half built condo development. And a man in a bunny suit came charging out of the woods waving a hatchet around yelling something about they shouldn't be developing

this area this is farmland and kind of threw the hatchet at the car and ran away clearly like a maniac yeah but it was real on some level he didn't kill dozens of people in the woods right and that's the type of story I've always been in love with. There's a kernel of truth. That's the type of story I always try to tell in my comedy. And my wife always gives me shit about this where she's like, the story you're telling

is true but it's not true. She's crud up. She's like, give me the context. She's not crud up because she's not a fucking stick in the mud denying who she is and where she came from for totally arbitrary, unexplained reasons. But she, especially since we got married and now sometimes the stories involve her, she has held my feet to the fire a little bit more of like, if you leave out the context that involves me, it might make me look crazy or severe in ways I wasn't. Sure. I love a good lie that's not a lie.

And this movie is a tribute to that. And I don't know if there's another one that. No, I think that's the thing. The themes, what this movie is about is something I am so in on. You know, what I think is such rich, fertile territory about our relationship to stories. Sure. And how we process the truth and why we mythologize things. And that makes so much sense that John August later went on to start script notes as well.

The other scene in this movie that I think is great and doesn't get enough credit is the Robert Guillaume scene where he tells Billy Crudup the story. I was telling Ben a masterstroke. That scene's a masterstroke. That's John August's smartest screenwriting move. Probably the turning point towards the ending. That being said, did rewatch it and think to myself, in a very weird way,

and I have to assume it's because of racial politics in America, has an actor ever, how would I say it? Because I have great respect. Has there ever been an actor more criminally underutilized throughout the course of his career than Robert Keogh? He's always playing like an ancillary and he's the fucking

best. Even when he got his own TV show, it was still kind of like, well, the premise is that he's sort of ancillary to the main family. Like Benson, that was his role. No, one of those guys was criminally underutilized and you watch him in this and you're just like, what a fucking elegant actor.

He's an elegant actor it's a tremendous scene I do like it is a scene where he has to sit down with a fucking grown ass man who's about to have a child and be like the value of you know these kinds of stories is that they make things a little more interesting Billy Crudup is like an atomic

bomb just went off like this is you're a grown man understand how hard is that to understand? I still think that scene is so good. So the crud up thing is obviously what the movie struggles with now. Not exclusively, but what makes the movie lumpy.

And I had this realization watching it last night where I was like, this movie has sort of the opposite of what worked so well in Black Panther okay ride me out on this one keep going which is that like Black Panther the thing that blows my mind is that Coogler was like I'm gonna take my personal experience my thoughts and feelings put it into the villain yeah I know the audience is automatically going to be on Black Panther's side

because he's the hero of the movie and he does heroic things. I'm going to try to invest everything that I believe in into a character who then on top of that does villainous things so that the audience cares about the villain because I'm putting my heart and soul into that character so that he feels like a fully rounded thing and not a plot device or stakes or something like that. I think this movie has a weird thing where So that he feels like a fully rounded thing and not a plot device or stakes or something like that. Right.

I think this movie has a weird thing where Tim Burton is making this movie after his father has died. Sure. When he's about to become a dad. He said that he had a terrible relationship with his father. In a sense that his father just was like, I don't get it. Why are you drawing so many circles around the eyes, Tim? You know? His father wasn't mean, but was just like, I openly don't understand myself.

I had a kid and the kid's just weird and I don't know what he's weird why doesn't he want to play catch right and he died and he was having all these sort of mixed emotions about on top that he's becoming a father and he's trying to figure that out and he gets the script and it hits him like a ton of bricks but I think to Tim Burton reading the script weirdly Billy Crudup is his father where he has contempt for the fact that the guy doesn't get it. Whereas most people come live in the real world. I think most people who would make this film, most directors would be like, well, obviously, the relatable human character is the son and the father is a fabulous. And you have to slowly over the course of the movie, get the audience on board with the father. And Tim Burton is so charmed by the father because the way the father makes his world around him

is exactly what Tim Burton wants to fucking do with his art. And the son is just some pill, you know? So I don't think he's openly like, I hate this fucking guy, but I think it seeps into the movie combined with Billy Crudup being such an antagonistic actor. Now, Griffin, I think there might be something there

that's theory A. Okay. It's father stuff. Is there Griffin, I think there might be something there that's theory A. Okay. It's father stuff. Is there any world in which you might buy that it's a very similar thing except instead of Billy Crudup representing

Tim Burton's doubting father, this entire movie was made as a reaction and commentary to how America received Planet of the Apes. That's theory. And Albert Finney is the Tim Burton yarn spinner.

And Billy Crudup represents all of America who represented... The ticket-buying audience of America. Who absolutely rejected his most recent yarn. Or Billy Crudup could also just represent like the studio system. Right. Like Billy Crudup represents Hollywood

and he's just like... Making some commentary in the same way that I always felt like Chasing Amy made some commentary about Clerks and Mallrats. Right. Hey, Blank Check listeners, I'm Adam Kempinar. And I'm Josh Larson. We're the hosts of Film Spotting.

Which is basically Blank Check, except in Chicago. That's not true. We both talk about movies. Sure, but we're not very funny. But the movie thing. That's the same. Also, long shows. In-depth reviews and interviews.

Right. Ethan Hawke, Paul Schrader, and Bo Burnham were all on last year. Plus, top five lists and other stuff every Friday since 2005. Rian Johnson said that nice thing about us once. A force for good in the universe. He probably regrets saying that. Too late. We're keeping it.

Film spotting wherever you get your podcasts. Have a good show, Griffin and David. The clear thing is that, you know, in this movie, Have a good show, Griffin and David. but he's the audience surrogate. That's what I'm saying is the problem with this movie. Tim Burton hates the main character of this movie. He does. I'm saying it's the opposite of the Black Panther thing, where he hates the audience surrogate. Let me give you some context. Yeah.

I want to give you some further context, just about the movie. I feel like it sort of matters to the commercial discussion of Tim Burton. One is that Ben is also making the face of someone who absolutely does not give a shit about Big Fish. Ben does not like this movie. Ben has not said a word. He doesn't want to get into this conversation.

He's zoning out to a degree where he was watching a different movie in his head rather than think about Big Fish. Assassin's Creed was playing. Oh, yeah. Ben has seen the Michael Fassbender Assassin's Creed movie ten times. Definitely. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I had to call it out. So you were saying definitely.

One thing, as you said, is that Nicholson was initially going to play this dad role. Right. They reworked the script to give it more dad

because the script, Finney's actually not in like a ton of the movie. No, they also, for a period of time, thought it was going to be Nicholson with CGI de-aging

and makeup playing both versions. Which is fucking insane. Which would have been a nightmare. I would pay $100 to that. Remember what Jack Nicholson looks like at this time. And imagine them trying to be like,

I'm a college student. Let's bring him back to a pre-Chinatown age. I'm the star quarterback of my football team in high school. Something's gotta give era Jack Nicholson. So eventually and Nicholson obviously

knows Burton well. But for whatever reason that falls apart and they get to Finney. And after that John August resets and he goes I'm not going to do this script. They threw out the new script. Let's go back to the original script that blew everyone away let's throw out this revamp thing really here's the other thing as you say Burton was like the

script Planet of the Apes had been this big mishegas that he was kind of not into yeah famously when asked if he wanted to make another one he said I'd rather jump out a window right and the sense is that's the first movie that he feels like he lost control sure so he says i want to make a smaller movie the budget of big fish is 70 million dollars what this was an expensive move hugely expensive i mean you got built sets you have to make a giant appear 15 feet tall for an extended period you got specter i assume that's an entirely constructed... There's so many locations. There's so many time periods. They've got like that big house that gets, you know, they push.

There's a lot of stuff. Did they make it back? No. That's shocking to me. They might have made it back worldwide. I know it did really well on home video. Whatever. I mean, no one's, you know, whatever. But like, this is the Burton problem, where everyone's like, well, his smaller movies don't

do as well so then he feels compelled to make the bigger stuff no he can't make small movies when he's making a small movie guys is a small movie yeah big eyes was fairly cheap right like nine million dollars ten million dollars you would have to work hard to make big eyes expensive like it's yeah but you know he could have done it if you let him. He could have. But, like, you know, this is your smaller movie? This? Like, it made $66 million in America. Right. To me, watching this movie, that's what I would expect this movie to make.

Yeah. You don't watch this movie and think, like, wow, America really whiffed on that. Well, but here's the thing. This wasn't a sensation. The big swing is, what if Tim Burton can make his Forrest Gump? Exactly. I was just going to say, let's not forget we're only a few years out from Forrest Gump.

Forrest Gump is impossible to replicate and insane that it was such a big movie. Agreed, but like... Oh, I mean, I'm sure you guys have talked about it. I mean, it comes up in weird ways, but as recently as like... If I was Casey Benjamin Button, it's clearly like, can we do Forrest Gump again?

Ben Stiller in interviews was like, Walter Mitty is me can we do Forrest Gump again? Ben Stiller in interviews was like Walter Mitty is me trying to do Forrest Gump because it's a phenomenal success. I haven't rewatched Forrest Gump

since almost since it came out. Have you guys watched it recently? That thing is a fucking slog in my opinion. That movie's a slog. My sister is 21 and again has a nice ending.

She watched it for the first time a year ago and she went what the fuck is that? Well first you have to just sit them down and be like let me tell you about Baby Boobies. That has to be the first conversation a year ago and she went what the fuck is that well first you have to just sit them down and be like let me tell you about

Baby Boobies that has to be the first conversation where it's like you don't understand they were all 30 years old they were passing us my generation the torch in a weird way

exactly they were like 30 to 50 years old they'd all watch the fucking moon landings and live through Vietnam like you don't understand this movie was hitting them

more exactly yeah their lives was like, their lives were like a weirdly negative base level with moments of cultural victory.

Yes, right. And like, Forrest Gump is just like, what if a guy lived in every memory that you have of your childhood, essentially,

you know, and walked through it. And then he has a kid and the kid's Haley Joel Osment. It's this weird epic that is so long, expansive so expensive and so oddly pitched in terms of tone i mean it's being there you know it is just being there in my

opinion but it's being there with like the self-importance of like lawrence of arabia that's the thing so i think they were like but then also it's like kind of goofy and like about a guy who's special. You're like, what? Like if they release this movie now, Tom Hanks would go to jail. He would be convicted and sent to jail. It would be regarded as the most tasteless choice. Right. The hippie gets AIDS.

Like everything about that movie now is just like. Bubba Gump? You think that would fly in 2019? You think that's going to fly? It wouldn't fly. We're trying that the restaurants are still around though right yeah they are well because people like i like shrimp like i like to eat shrimp i got no beef with it as long

as i don't have to be supposed to a lot of bubba gum i went there and on the menu it actually says their catchphrase is actually don't think too hard about it. Do you know though like Bubba Gump Big Fish is being pitched Don't think too hard about it. Do you know in that Forrest Gump zone of like can we make

a sort of family friendly but more adult sort of epic about fatherhood in America. And you go through American history not in the same sort of like touchstone way

but do you know like the book that Forrest Gump is based on has a plot line where he like goes to the moon

yeah and there's a sequel where he opens a company there's a sequel called Gump Incorporated where he like opens a factory and it's about like

capitalism right but the book is a little more venomous I think that's the thing the book is like I think closer to everyone America like you know it's kind of like fucking America I think the book is a little more venomous, I think. The book is like, I think, closer to a tomb.

Everyone. America. Like, you know, it's kind of like fucking America. I think the book is like fifth rate Vonnegut. And then they took it and made it into like a really like a box of chocolates. Sort of like saccharine family. It sure is. And everyone loved it. I want to see this eight times.

It was like the third highest grossing movie in history. Like it outgrossed Star Wars at the time. I remember my parents came home and my parents are not very sentimental. Yeah, sure. Or emotional people. And they sat me down and said, we just saw a movie and you have to go see it. This is important. Wow.

Tom Hanks had won Best Actor the year before and they were like, well, it put us between a rock and a hard place. Right. We cannot not give him the Oscar for Forrest Gump. Once again, he would go to jail in 2019. He'd be like, what are you doing? Is he like me? If he came on set and did that, someone would call HR.

Tom Hanks is talking in this goofy voice and I'm very uncomfortable. Right. Right. Getting strangers trouble. Do you think that at the funeral, at the end of Big Fish, that Billy Crudup approached a certain character

and was like, hey, I think I've heard about you. Are you Mr. Soggy Bottom? And then Soggy Bottom has to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I shot your dad does he like catch the bullet

the bullet does not mention him I think he clips him it's a very low caliber gun sure I mean it was inside the belly

the big belly of a little person you just gotta deliver the silver you're not trying to kill your friend you're just trying to get that silver

in there it's basically like a high grade hypodermic needle to inject some silver. But can we talk about Spectre? Yeah, let's talk about it. Because you seem like... Well, it's...

All right, so after his childhood... A very strange combination of frustrated... The witch is sort of the first big story, but the second big story... Miley Cyrus. Miley Cyrus is in the game here. Her first screen appearance is the little girl who goes to the witch's house with them.

She's credited by her birth name, which is Destiny Cyrus. Right. Is that true? That is Miley Cyrus. Totally true. Edward, don't! Is Miley Cyrus. Yeah.

Wild. Completely wild. It also, I just want to say the witch sequence has one of my favorite jokes in the movie, if you can call it that. Go ahead. Which is when all the boys start cursing to show that they're cool, and the one kid goes, screw. Yeah. Yeah. A the one kid goes, screw. A very young man moment.

Yes. Screw. Screw. But then, and the second story is the giant and him sort of coaxing the giant to like. Be cool. Be cool and have an adventure with him, right? Like walk down the road with him, right? Right, right.

A man born with medical conditions that cause him to have the angles of a Tim Burton drawing. Right. Really, a really striking person to look at who died not long after this movie. Yeah, McGorry. McGorry. McGorry. Right. Well, I realized, I looked him up on my rewatch.

He's tiny. He was a Howard Stern whack packer. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was in the whack pack. He's also in the House of Thousand Corpses movie.

He's seven feet tall. Yeah, he's a huge man. Yeah. Yeah. Seven, six. Seven, six. He had the longest toe. That was his Guinness record.

Longest toe. Which, imagine that. Imagine being, I don't know. How long was that toe? Let's find out. Longest toe, Guinness World Record. Here we go. You've tried to talk about Spectre at least 11 times.

And not the James Bond movie. Let's see. 5 inches long. 5 inch toe. That's a big toe. That's a big toe. I mean I'm surprised it hasn't been beeped but it's a big toe. He's still on there.

They hit that fork in the road. They hit the fork in the road where it's like, take the easy path or the scary path. And I know of one guy who went this way and he's never been seen again. Right. Nor the Wenslow. Which is the poet. Right. And Edward's like, well I feel like I should take the more

dramatic path. Right. I mean, like, is that his whole reasoning? Right. And he goes into this town. He's a man who believes that he's destined to live a great life. Right. And he knows when he's going to die. So he knows when he's gonna die so he's not afraid of death this isn't how i go and so he wanders in and what does he find this weird spooky town that's kind of like off the map barefoot town barefoot your shoes get thrown on a wire a little hamlet yeah it's got fairy lights it kind of looks like a sort of instagrammable wedding spot you know it would have a hashtag now it would have a hashtag now now you get like mason jar lemonades and stuff there right right but it's like this

presided over by loudon rainwright the third as of course of course obviously who's sort of like the mayor yeah is he kind of missy pile who's sort of becoming a Burton regular now. Right. And the second she appears in this movie, you're like, God, he must have been so happy when he found her. Yeah, when he found out that she existed. Right. Like, this is like a Catherine O'Hara level, like, you belong in a Tim Burton movie.

100%. I love Missy Pyle. I do too. Missy Pyle rules. And you gotta, what are the rules? You can't leave. You have bare feet. Yeah.

There's nothing to do. Most people wear white, but that's not 100% of them. They wear- Even the water is sweet. The people wear a lot of white clothes. They've also got a lot of white skin, I'm noticing here. Oh, wait. The whole town gathers and there's all white people.

What's going on? You seem to lose your abilities at poetry once you're there. Yeah, sure. Because there's nothing to do. It's like total stasis. Spectre is really great. Right. Which is really cool.

What were you going to say? I was going to say, I wonder if that applies to all skills or just that character's poetry. It seems to be a low ambition town. I mean, people aren't really working. It's sort of like a parody of a small town. Yeah. But it is also a parody of like a segregated town. Sure.

yeah but it is also the a parody of like a segregated town sure and the movie just just just kind of glances against that and doesn't know what to doesn't doesn't want to deal with that doesn't deal with that yeah and instead it just sort of becomes this parable of like you know paradise is is you know is what you make of it you know what i mean like it's like this place is ostensibly paradise but you mcgregor you know ed's not ready for it right i don't want to settle and you know when he gets back to it it's too late and like he he lost his chance at a pair right you know like sure paradise is more than a place you're gonna you have to be ready for it yeah okay but it's also like this weird white people down in alabama but then also what's going on sure but then also i mean the hannah ball mccarter scene is like no it was just like a town.

It was like a small town. Of course. It wasn't very sustainable. And to him, it just seemed idyllic. Exactly. There's an interesting thing about this movie that I wonder if you two think about based on where you grew up, which is I think so much of this movie is also about choosing to be worldly when you're from a small place.

Right. And what that means. And how attainable that really is. Which is tough, because Dave and I both spent our entire lives in New York City. We never lived anywhere else. Whereas I'm from northern New Jersey, a place that a lot of people look down on and make fun of.

Sure. Not in the same ways, but I feel like you think about the deep south and people have some caste dispersions. For sure. And when you're from a place like you think about the deep south and people have some caste dispersions. For sure. And when you're from a place like that. Making the decision to leave. But also still have pride.

Of course. When you live in a small world, maybe you can construct a bigger world for yourself in legend. And that's okay. There was a lot of stuff like that that I found really fascinating and kind of beautiful. And I wonder about your thoughts on it. Well, see, I didn't have the small town thing, but I definitely like from a very young age

was obsessed with this notion of like, I want to live a quote unquote great life in the sense of like the breadth of the life and like the experiences I accumulate and going to different places and putting myself in different environments. I mean, it's a lot of the life and like the experiences I accumulate and going to different places and putting myself in different environments. I mean, it's a lot of the stuff that you talk about where, you know, you're sort of self-mythologizing

of you putting yourself in all these crazy situations. There's value in that you get the stories out of them. But I also think there's the thing of just like, I want to push myself into environments I should not organically be finding myself in. Into working jobs that aren't innately the job I should be doing. You know?

Like, that sort of sense of Edward Bloom is this guy who's just like, I need to live as much life as I possibly can. The greatness is in the sort of, like, the variety of it. And this is where I agree with Crudup. Whereas Crudup is like, wait a second. You've lived an ordinary life. You went to college. You met my mom.

Then you were a traveling salesman and you made money, but you weren't around. And that's it. And you bought a house. Like, what's so fucking great about that? You know what I mean? Like, and I'm not saying I fully agree with Crudup. But I get that Crudup is sort of like, I've grown up and I've realized my dad was just a guy who like had an ordinary-ish life. But also to that guy, it it's like even if half the stuff

is bullshit there are some interesting experiences absolutely if your dad told you like did i tell you i worked at a circus for six months you'd be like whoa you worked at a circus for six months what are you talking served in the war you were traveling salesman you met these people well that's also why as you bring it up and as we talk it out the one moment with crud up outside of the ending with the dad the one moment where i start to really sympathize with him is the scene with helena bonham carter when he goes he's having an affair right that's the explanation he's looking for for his father that's one of the only ones where he's not just finally speaks right and maybe that maybe the movie would have been well served for something like that to come out a little earlier versus just him going i don't like you with all your but you understand his resentment at that moment you understand it really for the first and i would say only time

the depths of it way more than your dad just crushed a wedding speech you're being an asshole who doesn't want that he's so upset about that he's like i really hates that he showboated at the wedding yeah and which is also i it, you're making it about you, but that wasn't nailed that hard. But that idea of him going, oh, my dad might have actually been, it's not just that my dad's an exaggerator, it's that he might have been a real shitty dude.

We kind of feel like this movie needs in the first 10 minutes a scene where Billy Crudup says, I just always assumed that my father must be covering for something. He says it to his wife. And that's my fix for this movie. It's like, you need to build that in sooner because when he says it, it's kind of a powerful moment when he says it to Helena Bonham. And then when she responds and it's like, oh, we're jumping right into it.

But then you already know, like, now this movie's been going on too long and we're too in on Finney for that to be the twist. that's the problem is that burton loves the finney character he loves the life that this guy's living he doesn't want it to be questioned whereas the story helena bottom carter tells is basically a story of like no we didn't have an affair but we did have this relationship that kind of like just sort of was intimate emotionally intimate right right like that was in the air and eventually we didn't really act on it and that was that but it was a moment a weird moment in your dad's life where he was maybe pondering yeah like oh should i specter should i you know like and the movie kind of but like if

you had built that in a little more i feel like it'd be even more powerful when he you know when they almost kiss and he he says. Sure. And instead it's more just a fairytale where he's like, no, you know, Jessica Lange's the only lady for me. And you're like,

oh, okay. Yeah, Jessica Lange, the definition of doing a lot with a little. Doing a lot with a little. And again, as an Oscar watcher, everyone was like,

Lange's getting a nomination. It's a comeback. Look at her, she's luminous. And instead, she is great in the movie just as you say, anytime she's in it,

but she's barely. I do have to ask, and I feel like this is something we'll cover at some point. Did get any nominations one best score that's it that's it and people thought like even when this movie came out and it didn't okay so it's not going to be the runaway sensation people were like but probably like finney and like some design elements you know that almost all that sort of stuff aggressively it felt kind of backhanded and it's weird also that this is the first and only Danny Elfman-Tim Burton score to get nominated.

Right. Like he had done so many iconic scores with Tim Burton. And then this movie where people thought it would be an across-the-board Oscar player. They're like, we'll finally give Elfman an effect. Did it win for score? No. It lost. So three.

That's the little, well, you know what? We'll get to it. Finney really should have won for this, though. I mean, this year. And also because it's like this was the last big bite of the apple he had. Finney never won an Oscar is a shame. He also never went to the Oscars and thought they were stupid. Sure.

So, you know, props to him for that. That's pretty rad. I had forgotten he won the SAG for Aaron Brockovich, but did he not show up when he won? He was not at the Oscars. He's not at the Oscars. For the SAG, he won the... Oh, I don't know. I don't think so.

I was trying to find a clip to see. The SAGs were barely a thing back then. It was literally, I think, the first year. I think it was the first year. No, no, no. It was the second year.

Don't talk to an Oscar watcher. You can talk Burton. I can talk awards. Stone Cold Sims. Born on those Oscar boards. Entering this studio is a real exercise. I fully cannot believe you ever deign to do it you are a busy man with things to do it's like i feel like i can just barely keep up oh sure and then

there's moments where you're like oh i'm left at the roadside well some people will i've said this on the podcast but some people will say like i'd listen to your podcast but it's you're like speaking a foreign language like if if I turn it on, I just don't know what you're talking about. I mean, this is why, not to get too insidery, the episode,

J.D. Amato is one of the only other people I know who can keep up with conversations this insane. Keep up? He's lapping us off. You know, like, yeah, he's,

he's, he's on another plane. That's when his track training comes in. He starts sprinting. But I just want to say, the movie was ignored by the Oscars. Yes. But like the Golden Globes

nominated for Best Picture and for Finney. Sporting Actor, right. The BAFTA's nominated for Best Picture for Finney. Yeah. Like all the other sort of precursors were like.

Yeah, it seemed like, right. Yeah. And I think it might have been one of those things where the Oscars don't like Burton. They don't. They never have. They don't.

And also, because the movie kind of flopped after all the hype, maybe it was that sort of like, eh, that thing's a stinker. Burton has two Oscar nominations and they're both for animated films. And they're for animated films that people don't like. Franken-Weenie and Corpse Bride.

Where it's sort of like they have an animated feature category. They have to fill out five. Not even for design and effect stuff for his earlier stuff? Batman won a production design Oscar. Two of his films have won costume. Yeah. Right?

Sleepy Hollow. Anything for Scissorhands? No Scissorhands? No Scissorhands. No Beetlejuice? No. Right. Sleepy Hollow wins production design.

Alice in Wonderland weirdly wins. Is his most winning film? Yeah. Wins costumes and art direction? That sounds right. Yeah. Which is a garish movie. You guys know this off the top of your head. winning film wins costumes and art direction that sounds right yeah which is a garish movie

you guys don't you know this off the top of your head we're disgusting people so throw us in jail my girlfriend send you to Spectre

yeah right send you to Spectre my girlfriend grew up watching Red Dwarf I don't know if either of you ever watched Red Dwarf

I grew up in England okay I fucking grew up in England of course I watched Red Dwarf. I don't know if either of you ever watched Red Dwarf. I loved Red Dwarf. I grew up in England. Okay. I fucking grew up in England. Of course I watched Red Dwarf. That thing was fucking incredible. Right. Red Dwarf rules. Red Dwarf is like a silly sitcom set on a spaceship.

Very, very like cult popular. Have you ever heard of it? It's like a working class sanitation guy on a British spaceship who as punishment, they put him in cryo sleep and he wakes up 3 million years later and humanity is dead. And now he's stuck on a spaceship with a hologram and a computer and a cat person. Do they watch movies and make fun of him?

No it's not mystery science. It sounds very similar to pre-mystery science theater. Like early tip of the 80s. And it was one of those things that like just one of those British sitcoms that they would do like four episodes every couple years. You know Red Dwarf would come back and you know. Cool thing. Big gout. Where they're like yeah we got him back years. You know, Red Dwarf would come back. Cool thing they're allowed to do in Britain. Where they're like, yeah, we got them back together.

But also like the show weirdly has, you know, has like a lot of plot and like by the end is quite convoluted. But they've done like 10 seasons over like 35 years. How come you're allowed to do that in Britain where it's like, hey, I know we haven't made anything in 11 years for this one series, but let's do an Easter special. Holiday special. Let's do an Easter special for this thing no one made anything in 11 years for this one series, but let's do an Easter special. Holiday special. Let's do an Easter special for this thing no one's seen in 11 years.

I believe still the most watched television program in British history is The Only Fools and Horses, like a random Christmas special for Only Fools and Horses, which is like a venerable sitcom about two guys who are like, all right, you know, like drive a van and do odd jobs. It's like their Sanford and Son. It's Sanford and Son. Sanford and Son is based on

Stepton and Son, which is a British sitcom. Oh, right. Yes. British sitcoms, man. They're the best. This was the point I was going to make

about Red Dwarf, okay? My girlfriend grew up watching Red Dwarf and she was like, look, I don't know if you've ever watched this. I really found memories of it. I've been curious to rewatch it

and see if it holds up. And she's like, do you want to watch this with me and i'm sitting there watching it and she kept on feeling like am i putting this on you or you're not really into it and i was like no i'm like really into it crichton crichton rules well crichton doesn't come until season three it's only in episode one of season two and then season three comes right it's fucking great though crichton rules i agree crichton slaps but we're watching the show and she doesn't believe i'm into it

and then I start correcting her on facts and she's like what do you mean you're correcting me on facts? You've only watched eight episodes of this show

and I grew up watching it and I was like when I get into something I'd like Right, you're all in. I can't half measure. Like you showed me two episodes

and then I spent four hours on the Wikipedia page and then reading the links connected to the Wikipedia. She must have felt good that you liked it. She did. It was a nice moment. That's like your version of a compliment.

Right. But she did say she was like. I'm so into the lore that now I know more than you. Right. But she was like, you really do go hard on shit, huh? Right. And I'm sure there was a part of her that was like, oh, cool. You've taken this from me.

You're mansplaining a show I watched with my father. I introduced you to a thing that you're now looking down your nose at my lack of knowledge about. Does she like other British sitcoms? Actually, Crane doesn't come into my life. Does she like other British sitcoms? She's more of a sci-fi person. She's a big fan of Blackadder. Well, Blackadder fucking rules.

Yeah, I don't know as much. That's the top of the mountain. Blackadder is the top of the mountain. You must have heard of it, though, like Rowan Atkinson. And it's like, there's only four seasons. Each one is better than the last. Each season was 25 years after the previous one. And each season is set in a different period of

British history with different characters played by the same actors, but the same dynamics. He's like a type that keeps recurring in history. Right. It's like there's another black actor. Right. The modern day police force, sometimes that type is like. Well, no, that's the thin blue line.

Can I tell you a Rowan Atkinson tangent? Please. I once, in 2012, I sort of notoriously lost my mind. Fell off the wagon this was the Bonnaroo episode this was no this was the

Adderall stretch okay are you making the show at this point yes there's a stretch of Gethard shown public access

in 2012 summer of 2012 you can watch me losing weight week by week you can watch me getting more fairly early in the run

or which random were we on we were probably wrapping up on Andrew okay and Melissa by week. You can watch me getting Is that sort of fairly early in the run or? Which random were we on? We were probably wrapping up on Andrew. Okay. Sure. And the Melissa era.

Yeah, okay. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. But I had a friend of mine at the end of that summer who's a filmmaker. You guys probably, do you know Antonio Campos?

Yeah. He's a good friend of mine. And Simon Killer was out doing the festival circuit and it was at a festival in Rio de Janeiro and he pulled me aside and was like dude I think you're kind of going off the deep end I'm going out of town

why don't you just come to Brazil with me and he wasn't like it's not like Rio is a place to lay low he was just kind of I don't think of that as a chill place but he was just kind of like you and I will do some soul searching as like a chill place. But he was just kind of like, you and I will do some soul searching, talking,

and if you want to party, we can party. And if you want to just like chill out and get back to being yourself, get back. But New York is not good for you. This is one of those stretches

where we all have them, where New York is not good for you. You just need to go off the grid for a little bit. New York is be a pressure cooker It's a social thing as much as the city thing. Yeah.

I was dealing with a bad breakup. I was dealing with a bunch of bad decisions. All this stuff. Dealing with a bad breakup. I was dealing with a bunch of bad decisions, all this stuff. Dealing with a rough random. I mean, Andrew, very controversial.

Rough random. Had to, had to really help that kid. He's such a nice guy. He's a nice boy. Everyone hated him. Shit on my own brother called in and like shit on a kid who's 20 years younger than him. He's like in college.

My brother's like, get this fucking pretentious. I'm like, Greg, you're pushing 40, man. He's a boy college. Get this fucking pretentious down. Greg, you're pushing 40, man. He's a boy. Get him on my fucking screen. So I go to Brazil

and I mean, it's an epic, epic journey. We have a male ballet dancer hand me a giant bag of cocaine in front of my friend's mother secretly. I have to decide if I'm going to do cocaine for the first time. It's crazy. We're partying for the first time. It's crazy. We're partying in favelas.

It's wild. You robbed a bank with a big safe that you strapped to the back of a car. Me and a guy named Rocket took down a guy named Little J. It was nuts. It was really nuts. Rewatched that last night, by the way. One of the best movies to come out in my life.

Antonio has some family down there and we go his mom was in town because she was a producer on another film in the festival with this family up at this mountaintop retreat it's crazy it's so beautiful and he has this distant cousin who's like the most beautiful woman i've ever seen and antonio's mom decides she's going to be like human Tinder and just hook me up with her own relative. Like she's trying to pimp out her relatives. She starts like really talking me up. And she starts telling everyone we meet that I am regarded in America as the next Woody Allen,

that I'm as big as Woody Allen. She keeps telling everybody, this guy's a comedian. He's as big as Woody Allen. He's not on an international level, but in America, he's big, which is not true. It's undeniable. She's claiming that in America, undeniably, you're a video actor.

Not that I have a Woody Allen vibe. Not that that could be a thing. That in America, I am a... You are a venerable... Yes, an Annie Hall era Woody Allen level of fame. Not true. And this beautiful cousin of my friend is sitting there not speaking. I assume

she only speaks Portuguese. I later find out this is because she was pretending to only speak Portuguese so as to not have to speak to me. Cool. She knows about Woody Allen. At one point, yes. She knew before the rest of us. At one point when Antonio's mom tells this

cousin, this guy's actually a comedian in America, her face lights up. She turns to me and in perfect American accent English, she goes, oh my God, I love comedy so much. Sure. Have you ever met Mr. Bean? And I said, no.

And she was like, I love Mr. Bean. Mr. Bean is my favorite comedian ever. And she went on a very long rant about her love of Mr. Bean is my favorite comedian ever. And she went on a very long rant about her love of Mr. Bean. Sure. And it did develop into a flirtatious thing between the two of us. Nothing ever happened. And we became Facebook friends. But Mr. Bean is the glue holding you together. Mr. Bean became this weird glue.

But I've never seen someone love Mr. Bean so much. Is Mr. Bean that worldwide beloved? Yeah, it's insane. I think it's one of those things where like in America. We've always rolled our eyes at him. Yeah, it's a little like. Because they did like the much later Mr. Bean's holiday sequel. And people were like, why are they making this?

And they made like $2 in America and $3 trillion worldwide. But like Mr. Bean so much to the point where it almost got me a hookup. Did she want to talk about Blackout or was it just Mr. Bean? She's not Rowan Atkinson. I do not think she knew the name Rowan Atkinson. She thought his name was like Fred Bean

or something. She thought that was a real documentary. She thought that was Harvey Bean. But I mean, she was all of a sudden very, very open to hanging out with me. Because you knew from Bean. And she was an artist and I went to her art exhibit in Brazil

and it was her... It was all oil paintings of Mr. Bean. No, dude, you can't even imagine. Really? It was her doing videos of herself standing in abandoned, desolate places with a somber look on her face and having the video glitch in a loop over and over again,

which me in 2012, my dream woman. You're like, we're cooking with gas. This is it. A beautiful, mysterious Brazilian video artist who explores abandoned places and doesn't want to speak to me. That's my dream woman in 2012. Plus she's a beanaholic. Yeah, and she loves Mr. Bean.

She's getting high on that bean. You have described my 2012 fantasy human. But wait, but in the end of the day you just left Rio. I did. I left Rio. That was your spectrum. But then I came back to America and immediately

got together with my wife. Sure. And everything sort of leveled out. I mean, this is your big fish. This is your side story. You're Jenny. Yeah. Yeah. Get that.

Look at that. Look at that, David. It's a good story. Sorry about that. Real tangent. I don't think it paid off as well as I was hoping. That was a fantastic tangent.

Are you crazy? It didn't pay off as quite. I'm sorry, guys. That was good. It was a good path. I mean, if it had just ended with like, and it turned out

she was a werewolf and the sad clown had to shoot her, like, you know, that's a good one. mean if it had just ended with like and it turned out she was a werewolf and the sad clown had to shoot her like you know that's a good one Soggy Bottom Soggy Bottom So funny

Mr. Soggy Bottom he's only got the one line right where he says like this is my associate Mr. Soggy Bottom and he goes hello yeah he doesn't say

anything else during the negotiation maybe not I don't think so honest to god though if that's not Danny DeVito do you think if that's not danny devito do you think this if it's not danny devito do you think the studio cuts that whole storyline or certainly it's an expensive storyline like i need three elephants right like you know and all this shit i remember popcorn needs to freeze in the air he needs to be able to push it

though it's a good that's a good visual i like that i remember seeing the movie i wish allison loman had a little more to do. Agreed. Wait, who's Alison Lohman? She's the young wife. Yeah. And she mostly just stands there looking pretty. Right.

And you're kind of like, they really nailed Jessica Lange's hair on her. They really matched that well. I remember one of my eight times seeing this movie, watching it with my father, and when it was that montage of him trying to get the one piece of info a month out of DeVito

every time they would cut to a different attraction or a different gigantic animal or a different giant set my dad just went Jesus Christ how much did they spend

on this? Like this is a montage and every establishing shot in the montage is like so they had to rent a Tilt-A-Whirl? Sure. Yeah we get it it's a circus. Yeah cause he yeah he shot in the montage is like, so they had to rent a Tilt-A-Whirl? Sure.

Yeah, we get it. It's a circus. Yeah, because he's in the motorcycles driving around him in the cage. Which also, I have to say, my wife is a performer who has done a lot of aerial stuff, and there's a lot of crossover with the circus community. That is an extraordinarily dangerous thing. Oh, yeah. And to stand your leading actor in the middle of it crazy is that real do you think that was a real practical thing or was that it looks like it looks like it certainly doesn't look like fake yeah at all like

i've always that's one of those things where i'm like pants right everyone on set was just like yeah let's get this shot okay uh uh bikes go like you know um anytime it's like no we need another take you couldn't see helena's reflection in the background because there's also the thing when when he's like got his head in the lion's mouth it's clearly like an animatronic that's a fake line they spent a lot of money on an animatronic line they were like you can stay in the middle of a motorcycle cage, right? The only place beyond the pines has the motorcycle cage too. And that's

just the thing where I'm like, that's not real. That doesn't happen. It stresses me out. That's fucking insane. Watching stuff like that stresses me out. It's hard to drive a car. Now, I'm good at it. I'm fine at it. So hard that I will never do it. But driving a car requires your attention. You are level and going forward.

Like imagine just looking through the eyes of the guy on the motorcycle. Right. Who's just like, yeah, I'm just not going to see anything except like cage. Yeah. And as they pass each other, there were two in there. Yeah, there's two in there. One is bad enough. It wasn't even that big of a ball globe thing.

It basically is like it can hold Ewan McGregor and then two motorcycles and that's it. Speaking of would this role be as big if it wasn't DeVito if you didn't have a name actor who gets, you know, and Danny DeVito billing. I saw the Big Fish musical they did about 10 years after this. Where John August readapted it. Because this is well suited to a musical because it's vignette-y. Any movie that's vignette-y, people are like, Broadway musical. Like, this is basically just a bunch of songs. Like, you know.

I think the musical made one fatal flaw, which I will say in one second. But the Dan DeVito character was weirdly big in the musical. Sure. And it stood out when it wasn't played by Dan DeVito. Was he kind of the emcee of the musical or something stood out when it wasn't played by Danny DeVito. Was he kind of the MC of the musical or something? No, it was just the same thing where that section went on weirdly long. Did they have a soggy bottom?

No. No, I don't think they did. I'm not seeing a soggy bottom in the credits here. Was it on Broadway? It was. You saw it on Broadway? I saw it on Broadway. I saw it on Broadway. One time. Here was on Broadway. One time. Here was the thing. One time is enough.

Here was the thing I think the musical could have done. The mounting self-consciousness you feel about how many times you saw it in the theater. A gentleman's ape.

Same theater every time? Give me another hit of that thing. I want to keep trying. Did you test it with different sound systems? Of course I did. I'm trying to think some of the places I saw it.

I think I definitely saw Kip's Bay at some point. Kip's Bay has a Star Wars VR machine. They have a whole VR thing. They got rid of it. Oh, they have it. They used to have

the whole IMAX basement. They don't have the VR. I forgot. The Big Fish musical was a flop. I forgot. Wow. It played 98 performances.

That's a disaster. Did he win Best Actor? No. No. Okay. Because who was... Norman Leo Butts, who's won like 17 Tonys. Norman Leo Butts.

Yeah. It got zero Tony nominations. He didn't get nominated? Blank. Because he's... Bloodline. That was the big thing was he plays... What's the name of Mendelssohn's character in Bloodline?

Fuck. I never watched Bloodline. Because that's... I mean, we all know. Director Orson Krennic. They're good people, but they did a bad thing. They did a bad thing. We all know that about Bloodline. It is fair that they did a bad thing.

Danny. Like, to me, Bloodline, anytime I'd watch it, it's just everyone's been like, Danny. Danny's a problem. Yeah. Like, the whole show. Those families. Danny.

What's he up to? It did make you feel like you grew up in that town with them and everybody knew from a young age. Danny's no good. Bad egg. All right, sorry. The thing I was going to say about the Big Fish musical, you have one guy playing Edward Bloom at all ages.

I know, I know. Are you pointing at the runtime, Ben? He's pointing at the runtime. We're almost done. It feels long to me and I've been in it. Yeah. We're done. I have nothing left to say about Big Fish.

No, we're going to play the box office game and that's it. But what do you want to say about the musical? I'll say a couple more things. The thing about the musical, Norman Leo Butz plays Edward Bloom at all ages. So there's kind of an impression. Norbert Leo Butz. Norbert Leo Butz. Norbert Leo Butz plays the character at all ages.

So there's a skill piece element of like, you're watching a guy sweat and run and transform and go back from the bed and this and that. There was a moment watching it where I went, oh, fuck, this is what they should have done. The entire first act should have exclusively been Edward telling the stories to his kid in bed, which is kind of how they structure the first act.

Right, because, yeah, the movie, yes, that's fair. And you don't see adult Will at all until act two. Right. That act one is just, here is... It's weird that the movie literally starts with old,

you know, Crudup being like, you're a fucking fraud and the wedding speech was too long and you're like, build up to this. I don't get why he's mad.

Because the actor who played young Will was a lot less antagonistic in the Broadway musical, but you go, there's an opportunity here to just open with act one is

full on Broadway musical it's fantabulous stories act two is when reality crashes down but isn't the problem then that it's the princess bride it's just the princess bride which is iconic at that point

kind of it's like princess bride it's a little like into the woods where you have the second act where like the fantasy falls away. Because even as you just said, him telling young Will, I had a vision of him sick in bed.

Like it immediately brings it out. The musical is still mostly that. It's just not exclusively that. It's mostly the superstructure is him telling the stories to Will as a bedtime story. But then old Will interrupts. And I was like, save old Will for act two. Like keep act one purely in fantasy land.

Right. I think would have been cool. Right. And then act two comes up and it's a totally different time. It's reckoning with. Right. Yeah.

It's not a bad idea. I thought, yeah, if I were to revive. The musical. Yes, that's what I would do. The ending of this thing,

I mean, there are a couple things it gets at first of all Crudup gets out of the way and just delivers this thing clean I think he does a great job right and from the moment it just starts tickling in where you're just like they've set this up so perfectly the dominoes are perfectly in place he's kept on saying I know how I die

tell me the story and he doesn't know and you see him start to figure it out there's so many good finney performance moments where like when he tells the story it adds in the detail about taking the other route because church traffic right and they cut to albert finney and he's like beaming right because he's like including a superfluous detail unnecessary detail he's giving coloring to the story now and then just the fucking idea i don't know if it's because I'm like a megalomaniac or whatever,

but the idea of at the end of your life, you see every person you've ever known is like the most profound thing in the world to me. And they watch you turn into a fish. Yeah. I mean, that's the dream, right? A big fish. You see everyone you ever knew.

You get your lady in the water. That was the implication though, that what he saw in the eye was him connecting with his son. Right. That's how I go. Yeah. I mean, that's why I always took it. They leave it up to you to decide, right?

Sure, of course. Of course. It wasn't about the story. It was about the stories that bring you together. Just him saying exactly, and then Albert Finney doing one of the best death pieces of acting I've ever seen where you literally just see the life leave his eyes. Shocking.

Absolutely. You're just like, we're in the hands of one of the best to ever do it. Anytime I see that in a movie and Albert Finney at this point in his life is probably, what do you think he is? He's younger than I think he is. He's like 67, 68. But still, I would be like, if I'm 67, I'm like, I don't want

to do it. I don't want to face this. It was creepy, man. He's really good at it. His bed acting's really fucking good throughout the whole movie. That scene where he makes the face when she's not looking at him and he's in pain and yeah he's really good at it his bed acting's really fucking good throughout the whole movie that scene where he makes the face when she's not looking at him

that he's in pain and then he's like back to sort of it's just like heartbreaking shit but then also when you have the moment where Will starts

telling the story and he goes okay so it's like this I wake up but suddenly everything's different and they cut to fantasy version of Finney

in Will's story and suddenly it's like Albert Finney with full verve and he takes off the thing and goes like let's get out of here

he's just like that's my fucking guy I love him I love him in this movie I think it's a great performance should have won the Oscar I'd be fine with that I think that's like

a great best supporting actor winner in a year that was a notably bad best supporting actor field Billy Crudup should have won the Nobel Prize

for lack of chemistry that was a notably bad best supporting actor feel. Billy Crudup should have won the Nobel Prize. For lack of chemistry. Oh. And it plays out like a slot machine. It still destroys me. He loves to say pays out like a slot machine. It's a thing I read

someone say in reference to Shawshank Redemption. I'm like, God, I got to find an opportunity to say that. Which is another movie like this.

Pays out like a fucking slot machine. This thing's long. And then you're like, I guess I got to find an opportunity to say that. Which is another movie like this. Pays out like a fucking sloth. This thing's long. And then you're like, I guess it was kind of worth it. You needed to spend that much time in jail. Yeah. One could say it pays out like a fucking sloth. All right, let's play the box office game. Okay.

Unless there's anything else you want to discuss about. You don't have anything else to say? That's what it gets me. Get there just spent. Guys, it's 3.30. All right. Okay. I got here at right. Okay.

I got here at 1. Okay. God, other stuff to do today. Number one. I'm officially getting anxious. There's a window, though. Look, look. There's a window.

Look outdoors, though. It looks into somebody's cubicle. And that guy's not working, by the way. What is he doing? He's reading gmails. Oh, that's an article. Who knows? He might be researching. Oh, boy. So this is the wide weekend. This is the wide weekend. We've done the

initial weekend. So Sony goosed up the numbers in the early estimates to be able to claim that they got number one. And then when the estimates came, when the actuals came in, it lost to week four of Return of the King That's correct

Right This is the Return of the King Lord of the Rings was running the tape I mean there's no shame in that And that's the year at the Oscars Return of the King wins everything Certainly every like design

visual effects Oscars of any score It doesn't lose a single thing it's nominated for Right That's when Return of the King just annihilates everything anyway Because it was all the goodwill from the It's a a single thing it's nominated for. Right. That's when Return of the King just annihilates everything anyway.

Because it was all the goodwill from the- It's a celebration of- Exactly. Right. So like, you guys did it. Has Lord of the Rings, and I don't know because I was in college when they came out, has it held up as an institution the way that Star Wars has amongst young people? It has to the extent that it had a prequel trilogy that people didn't even like as much

and it still survived. I liked those Hobbit movies okay. When we do Jackson, we got to have you back for one more Hobbit. Yes, please. On Desolation of Smaug. I kind of have a soft spot for them too, so I would love to tell them. I tapped out after one. He didn't even see two of them.

He only saw the first one, which is probably the weakest for you. But kids still get into Star Wars, they're always gonna get into Harry Potter is Lord of the Rings the same thing culturally I think Lord of the Rings has always played a little bit older and I feel like

you have a lot of people who still every year like gotta watch the extended trilogy like it's an annual tradition it's a Christmas tradition for multiple people that I know

like unconnected people I was almost fired from Weird New Jersey because I went to Trilogy Tuesday which was when Return of the King came out and go to theater, watch all three. Right.

My boss was like, I cannot believe you. I will fire you. He was serious. He's like, I'll fire you. Number three at the box. Big fish is number two,

13.8 million. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Number three is, um, Oh, it's a comedy with one,

probably an actor we all revere it's one of his low points uh you know family comedy uh but comedian and actor

I feel like okay wait so 2003 family comedy it's it's not trooper by the dozen is it it is trooper by the dozen

he doesn't have like four kids I'm glad twelve fucking kids I'm glad I got that. A wild runaway hit. Usually this game, people just sit and watch you play. Yeah.

No, that was a good fall. Cheaper by the dozen. Huge hit. Huge hit. 140 million bucks. Steve Martin was back. Does that mark the beginning or is it just in the early wave of I want to buy a new painting, Steve Martin?

This is when he starts getting- My house is getting a wing. Fancier in his paintings. Because 2003 is cheaper by the dozen and bringing down the house. That's right. And they're both huge hits and they're both movies that you go, he must have been holding his nose and just checking

eBay. There was some Picasso for sale that year. He was calling Sotheby's in between takes. Yeah. Will you throw in a Basquiat? My dude loves his paintings. Do you remember that thing a couple years ago this will pay for 8 banjo tours around the country do you remember that thing a couple years ago where like 92nd street Y was like

a conversation with Steve Martin and then it was just banjo right no it was just paintings and people like walked out and he kept on being like I'm sorry this is what i want to talk about i do remember that like he was very apologetic and people were like tell jokes and then people were even like i'd settle for banjo you're verbally describing a visual medium we paid money and we traveled all the way up here. It's shockingly hard to get to. People drove from Tri-Asit.

Was it at Tribeca? No, it was the real 97. It's hard to get to. Yeah. Have you ever interacted with Steve Martin, Chris? No. Yeah. He is like of, I feel like of my big, like Mount Rushmore idols, the only one I haven't met.

I will say too, for all the jokes we've made planes trains and automobiles is probably i think it's my second favorite movie outside of like the star wars and you've said i mean it's gross my favorite comedies are gross point blank and planes trains and automobiles you have said before in this podcast planes trains and automobiles features your wife's favorite actor of all time. That dog who got froze up. She recently... That dog who got froze up in the back of the pickup truck. My wife respects

no actor more than that dog. When you think about it though, that's a dog in the cold and he nailed the timing on that heart. And he's up against Steve Martin and John Candy. She recently declared her second favorite actor. Should I... Please, big reveal reveal this is Scoop guy who plays

Thurman Merman in Bad Santa great call I just saw that for the first time oh that's a real Gethard movie that is

I mean that's up there I immediately was like oh that's number three it's sort of a weird forgotten movie because it was a hit at the time people liked it

but it kind of just went away I always thought it was just Elf just like I always thought of that and Elf as very similar. No, it's like a very dark movie. Oh my God, it makes me laugh.

It's from the director of Crumb. And Ghost Rule. When he hands him his report card and Billy Bob Thurton looks at it and he's like, Thurman, who the fuck is Thurman? Are you Thurman? And you realize he doesn't even ask this kid his name until we're like a solid 75 minutes into this movie. That is such a funny joke, man. You're like, he's been living in his house for the bulk of this movie

and they insinuate it's been for weeks maybe. And he just now is like, wait, what's your name? He didn't even ask him his name. Thurman, man. So Hallie Bullitt, her like De Niro Pacino together for the first time would be the dog and Thurman Merman yeah yeah yeah if you could get a two hander with that dog and Thurman Merman who is that dog

he's like James Dean he did a very little he went away watch that scene now that's a great scene I know I can conjure the image of the dog right away watch the timing watch the comedic timing on that scene and some of it's the camera cut image of the dog right away. Watch the comedic timing on that scene.

And some of it's the camera cut, sure. But the dog carries his weight. And you don't expect the dog to have his mouth all froze up like that. And he keeps a straight face. He deadpans it hard. And it doesn't look like he's just looking for the treat. He looks like he's looking for the moment. He was in it.

He was in the moment. It's all froze, Doug. Speaking of froze, oh, number four. Come on. Come on, Griff. It's across the... Girlfriend's calling. It's someone who assumes we wouldn't still be taping at this point.

She is sorely mistaken. Number four is a cold movie. Cold? It's got cold in the title cold mountain you seen cold mountain? civil war Homeric epic another big like this is gonna run the table

at the Oscars and then it kind of cracked out other than supporting Eric they did give Renee Zellweger her Oscar weird movie I actually kind of like it it's got this great scene where you got those you know that southern revival sort of thing where they sing these songs and they use their voices as instruments

and it requires like many, many people to have any impact. Where like they're all just sort of making like percussive sounds with their mouth. Fucking love that shit. I made the argument on Twitter recently. Wait, that's in Cold Mountain or that's the other movie?

There's like a big scene in Cold Mountain where they're all singing I was trying to guess that was his hint for number five number five is something's gotta get

is the movie oh okay the Nancy Meyers classic yeah with Jack Nicholson yeah so I have I have a big question

I guess sort of in summation everything we and this has been a wide ranging episode we've gone deep into a bunch of different little I think we did a great job yeah we taken a couple stops at different towns

at the side of the road right my question is as you said you will soon be a father for the first time yes you're looking forward to sharing Star Wars with your son yeah as you said now do you feel like for you,

the original trilogy is the thing? You want to introduce him to that? Or do you want to lead for your son with Kit Fisto? Because if you started episode four, you're depriving him of Fisto. Goddamn. You just called into question everything that I know about. You thought this podcast was done, we had nothing left to say,

and I asked you the existential question of your life. Look. Do you want your son to meet Kit Fisto or Luke Skywalker first? That is the question. I guess I just fear that if I hold back Fisto from my son, and then he comes to realize at some point that Fisto was there the whole time, he's going to view me like Crudup viewed Albert Finney.

It all ties together. That's what the Moise pads are, but they're making the decisions as a father. What kind of world do you want to raise your son in? You know, if he views you that way, it means he'll have some trouble, but he'll come around. He'll figure it out.

He'll realize what a great man you were eventually. Is he going to put his emphasis on weird syllables? What if you had a kid and the kid talked like Billy Crudup in Bigfoot? I'd be like, I'm fucked up with this kid. How bad would you react if you had a son someday, Griffin, and he looked at you, if you're eating dinner, and he's just like, hey, Dad, can you pass the salt? Stop that shit.

The stories that you're telling all the the time don't you feel like because this was the period where he was the mastercard priceless guy and that was so much of his job was just like listing things with atypical rhythms right that he just got so caught up in that game because there's literally what can you say about a credit card like you know it's sort of like any beer advertisement. It's the same product as before. Remember what a credit card is? It's that. That's what we got. It's a fucking credit card.

And he just had to keep doing those spots over and over again. Maybe that ruined Billy Crudup at this period of his career. Now, I've just rewatched Almost Famous, and he's pretty good in that. He's very good in that. He's really good. He's very good in that. What else has he done? What else am I not thinking of? Left Mary Louise Parker eight months pregnant. That was a big career move for him. That's true. Fam that. What else has he done? What else am I not thinking of? Left Mary Louise Parker eight months pregnant. That was a big career move for him.

That's true. Famously. Yeah. You know, he was in this movie called Waking the Dead, which he's quite good in. He was in this movie called Jesus' Son, which he was sort of like seen as like an up and coming marquee idol. Where it's like, this guy's handsome. He's a good actor.

He's got all the tools. Like, he's going to be big. But then Almost Famous was like his first big studio bite at the apple. and then this is kind of like the next one and this that's it yeah but also people so truly despise him for the mary louise parker thing that his name is mud in hollywood right and he just becomes a character he left his longtime girlfriend eight months pregnant for claire dame right which was just seen as like such a despicable move even in hollywood people were like yeah you can't do that. Yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, then by the time he's in Mission Impossible 3, which is only two years later, or three years later. He's kind of the pill. He's the pill and he's like a fucking character actor. And like only a couple years after that, he's Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen.

Where it's like this guy, he's like, fine, I'll play the mo-cap thing. Like, I don't give a shit don't even have my face I've said it a thousand times I still think he would be my ideal Doctor Doom casting Billy Goodenough you've said that a thousand times

I've said it a thousand times I'll say a thousand more everything you've never said that to me I think I have definitely said that to you in what world do you need to say that a thousand times? Who's listening to you say that? Unfortunately, no one's listening, but I'm saying it. Several people listen.

Why does Billy Crudup make the test? I'll tell you what. Everything that's irritating about him and Big Fish is what makes him a good Dr. Doom. No way. But he's a weasel. Dr. Doom is a strong... Yes. Dr. Doom's a king.

Outside of Magneto, maybe the most justification for villainy in the Marvel Universe. I think he can do that, but the key to Doctor Doom is that he's just driven by petty rage of the fact that he thinks he should be the leading man. Right, but he needs charisma. He needs to command a room. He can do it. That needs to be like Christoph Waltz.

Well, that's a little too obvious. Because of the accent? Yeah, and it's just that he's played like every fucking villain that exists at this point. But sure. Also, I think Victor Von Doom has to be a failed heartthrob who's angry that he's not like a superhero. You know? I don't know about that. He's an ice-cold sociopath from the day he enters college next to Reed Richards.

Because he's like assuming like, well, I'm the golden boy, right? Ultimately, though, what's fueling Doctor Doom is that his mom has been captured. His mom's soul has been captured by Mephisto. Right. That's true. Have you ever read the Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange crossover? No. It was notoriously hard to find when I was a kid.

They have it on Marvel Unlimited, though. It is awesome. Really? It's all about Dr. Doom's Dr. Doom also deals with magic and the mystic arts well because his

his mother was a gypsy yeah discredited by his father and he's he's kind of it's incredible shamefully pursuing magic well worth reading

well worth reading I want to read it I'm doing this thing where I read Marvel comics year by year right now on the Unlimited app. Do you pick one series or do you have a number of series that you're reading as if you're

a kid taking them all up each month? Take a guess. Ooh, that sounds fun. This guy, take a guess which one he's doing. I'm not going to read every, like, you'll learn, like, I'm in the 70s now where it's like some things like, okay, I don't need to read this. Like, you know, I don't need to read some failed, you know. But right now through

through the entire 60s there's really only 12 Marvel titles so you're trying to live the experience of being a Marvel fan that's exactly what I'm trying to do

so you're reading like Journey into Mystery oh yeah oh yeah Tales to Astonish yeah wow all that shit

the 60s is great it's pretty unbeatable yeah you know and you can see the heroes that are hitting better right and you can see the ones that aren't and like their villains kind of. You know, and you can see the heroes that are hitting better. Right.

And you can see the ones that aren't. And, like, their villains kind of suck. You know, and, like, you can see, you know, in the early 60s where they're like, Ant-Man is one of the core heroes. Yeah. And then slowly they're like, yeah, Ant-Man's not that big a deal anymore. And then Ant-Man's just gone. You know, he's in the Avengers, but that's it. And then they make him, like, an abusive, like, asshole.

Well, that's, I haven't gotten to that yet. Right, okay. Namor. They're like, Namor is crucial. And then they're like, ah, fucking no one likes Namor. I guess Namor's gone. And you see him get bumped from the front.

He's like, he splits a title with someone else. Then he gets bumped to the back and then he's just gone. Namor's so cool. Namor's great. I always liked Namor. Yeah, always liked him. But his solo titles are no fun.

It's boring. No, but he's great as Fantastic Four ensemble. Him dropping into the Avengers or whatever, or Fantastic Four is great. But him going down to Atlantis, like the other Namor characters, are not as interesting. Are they doing a Namor now?

They talk about it, but who knows? Because it seems like a no-brainer with climate change, global warming. Yeah. Well, that's what Aquaman kind of was. Yeah. I didn't see it. I wanted to see it,

but could not convince Hallie on that one. Ben, you want to give it a quick review? Ben is vaping. Fucking rules. Ben is vaping. Yeah, I was vaping. It's good. Yeah, I loved it.

It's awesome. I got to watch it. It's like such a fun movie. You know where I'm going to watch Aquaman? On a plane? Of course. As soon as I saw the trailer, again, Hallie Bullitt, we watched the trailer and Hallie Bullitt just went, trailer and Hallie Bullitt

just went don't even ask don't even ask no this will whet your appetite Chris it's got a lot of C crime

I gotta go home guys okay that's it that's it we're done we're done new book lose well

we were talking comics all of a sudden you know what do you mean come on about the new book new book it's all okay pretty good We were talking comics all of a sudden. October, who cares? What do you mean? Come on. About the new book. New book. It's all okay.

Pretty good. Let's give it that BC bump. I would love that. We'll sell 30 more copies. You got your podcast? Yeah. Beautiful Anonymous. I got some moves I'm making coming up

that I think you guys, that either represent a severe career downfall or are the coolest thing I could possibly be doing in 2019 that I want to talk to you guys about off mic. Let's end this episode immediately. Turn the mics off. A severe career downfall? Or the coolest thing I could possibly be doing in 2019? That I want to talk to you guys about off mic. Let's end this episode immediately. Let's just say that I used to think I could make a better TV show than some other people. And now I think I could make a better TV network than other people.

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew Goodell for our social media. Lane Montgomery for our theme song, Joe Bonaparte rounds for our work. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to T-Public for some real nerdy shirts. And as always, let's end the episode so we can hear this.