Blank Check with Griffin & David - Blackhat with Bilge Ebiri

Episode Date: August 4, 2019

Film critic, Bilge Ebiri, joins #thetwofriends to discuss 2015's hacker flop Blackhat. 

I'm sorry for what happened to you. Well, don't be. I'm not fishing for sympathy here. I did the crime. I'm doing the time. Time isn't doing me. I do my own time, not the institution's. See, to hold on to who you are in there, you dedicate yourself to your podcast. You work out your body and your mind.

There should be a whole prequel that's him in prison. Just getting jacked? Yeah, that's like Brawl in Cell Block 99, right? Like, that's just him thumping people in prison just getting jacked yeah that's like brawl in cell block 99 right like that's just him thumping people in prison i like this movie but the establishment of him in prison you're just like this is the movie i want to be watching what the fuck has this guy been doing well right i mean and the prison thing i feel like is mostly there so it's like so that's why he's good at fighting right stuff because of prison. He learned all of it in prison. Like to tape magazines to himself.

Fucking. You know, but. Battle towel. Battle towel. I love that. Yeah. And it's great, but right. I want to see like Black Hat Origins.

This is all you need to know about Black Hat. We could almost end the episode here. It is one of the biggest flops of the last 10 years. True. almost end the episode here it is one of the biggest flops of the last 10 years true and it is a two plus hour movie about the world's sexiest computer hacker that ends with thor wrapped up in magazines challenging a man to a screwdriver fight challenging like a portly dutch guy who's not famous right like It's not like it's him versus, insert other marquee idol, him and Christian Bale finally meet. No, the man who, up until this point, his biggest credit was the rapist in Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.

Right. And then the other guy is the Chechen from The Dark Knight. Yes. Right. Those are the two final bosses in Black Knight. And he's screwdriver. Screwdriver. Can't get more analog than that.

That's true. See, that's part of my whole take on the movie. The magazines and the screwdriver. Oh, no, of course. He's going primal. Well, the other thing that you need to mention... And people say Prince is dead. Right. Prince keeping him alive. The other thing you need to know in your one sentence pitch is Prince kills.

Is that... Oh, and also, in the original version of the movie a nuclear meltdown happened at the start and it was moved near the end and made no difference like you know it was fine being moved right you know what i mean like they almost put it in the wrong place okay let's get the introductions out of the way because we need to talk about the that the placement of that piece and the questions it arises in both cuts of the movie. Because this is a podcast called Blank Check.

I'm Griffin. I'm David. Sim. Newman. Our name is Griffin David Sims Newman. That's right. We're beginning to merge into one.

We're becoming one creature. It's a podcast called Blank Check. It's about filmographies. We're going to be the one friend. Who have massive success early on in their career. They give a series of blank checks, make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bounce baby.

And we've hit it. This is the final film. This is it? And who knows? Is this it? That's my question. We have a guest. You can talk.

I mean, has, you know, is a real student of this man's work and his career and has spoken to him many times. Do you get the sense that this might be the swan song or do you feel like he's going to make another one happen? I think he definitely wants to make another one. I mean, this was not meant to be his swan song. Right, he's not making this thinking like, I'm going to end on Hemsworth wrapped in magazine. And he has set up several films since this movie. They've announced, they've cast, and then the films have fallen apart. Yeah.

Although with him, I get the sense nothing ever really falls apart. Sure. It just gets like deep backburnered and who knows. Yeah. And he's always working on different things. Yeah, and he's always working on different things. And I think he also, I mean, he's been working on this Hue miniseries based on this book about the Vietnam War. And last time I talked to him, he had just come back from Vietnam.

He was location scouting, although I don't know if that means that it's a go project or if he's just location scouting because he's, you know, kind of an obsessively busy person. Yeah, I imagine he's a guy who does two years of location scouting. Yeah, yeah. Self-funded. On a movie that never happened. Right. And you guys probably talked about this,

but like Heat is the perfect example of a movie that he worked on for years and then like made it and then was like, actually, I'm going to do it again. Yeah, I'm never finished making a it. Yeah. And then was like, actually, I'm going to do it again. Yeah. I mean, I'm never finished making a movie. Yeah. Yeah.

That's I mean, that's what's crazy about the the nuclear meltdown sequence in this movie is that you feel like putting it at the beginning was him going like, I don't know why not try it. Right. It was a last second idea that then was the made it the second that they had to strike up the DCPs and then it came out in theaters that way and then he immediately went like, nah, not a good

idea. Yeah, why is that there? There's sort of no finality to the idea of the movie being released to him. That's Michael Mann. Right, it's like that's just the first version. We're talking about Michael Mann, of course. We're Michael Mann-splaining. This main series is called

The Castle of Podheekens. Today we're talking about Black Cat. Our guest is the great Bill Gates. Hello. He's back. He's back, baby.

Back in Black Cat. That's right. Yeah. So let's talk about Tenet, people. No, I'm kidding. Just last time you were here we were talking to Nolan.

We were talking to Nolan. That's right. We're pretty amped, David and I, about the fact that that movie is titled Tenet. Tenet. It's pretty thrilling to see like untitled Warner Brothers event film get replaced on the calendar with Tenet. Tenet. Tenet. Yes, you're right.

That's not usually the type of title you see associated with... A July blockbuster in 2020. An untitled event film. Exactly. Right. Godzilla, Tenet. Yeah. Which number film is that for Nolan?

11? It's not his 10th film, is it? I feel like Dunkirk was 10. Am I wrong about that? Let's count them. I think this is 11. I mean, it's somewhere in that. Yeah.

Right? Like. Okay. Following. Following. Memento. You're going to do the count. Yeah.

Counting. It's 11. Oh. Dunkirk was 10. Great 10th movie. Perfect 10th movie. Yeah. I mean, really kind of like the ultimate.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, well, what is this? What is Black Hat for Man? 12. Is it that? I i think if we're not counting jericho mile which and i want your opinion on this a lot of our european listeners have gotten angry this is his 11th movie well don't count jericho mile if you count jericho

mile it's 12 okay interesting if you count la takedown that makes it 13 you know like this is obviously the sort of liminal space i count count Jericho Mile because I love it. Sure. And it feels cinematic to me. And I would love to see that movie on a big screen. The thing is, I don't count The Keep because it sucks. Interesting. Get it out of there.

Or lock it up. Keep it in there. I mean, yes, the argument with Jericho Mile, much like with Duel, Spielberg's Duel is right. It did play in theaters, not in America, but elsewhere. So that kind of makes it a movie, right? So a lot of our European listeners are saying you should take it seriously. By this point, we will have already released a Patreon episode covering Jericho Mile, which is our concession to that. But the thing for me is I fall under what was the intent when it was produced.

And Jericho Mile was produced as a television film. That's true. It was shot on film, and as was tradition back then, most American TV films were released in theaters. There are a lot of examples of pilots being released in theaters. Sure.

You know, two-hour pilots being released in theaters. I don't think that makes the Starsky and Hutch pilot a movie. I don't know. You know? Maybe it is. Who directed it? I don't know. I think Starsky and Hutch was released as a fucking movie

in Europe, though. I believe you. If not that, I mean, many of those sorts of cop shows and Battlestar Galactica was a movie in Europe, but it wasn't here.

There are things like that. No, well, that was back in the day when television was a newer thing and, you know, maybe you have to go see a movie to see a thing. I don't fucking know.

This is not an argument I want to have. No. We haven't watched it yet. I have like no stakes in this. At the time of recording, we haven't watched it yet. Jericho Mile is the only Michael Mann thing I've never seen. We will have watched it by the time the episode comes out.

I want to see it. It's really good. Yeah. It is really good. I'm sorry. Dennehy? Is Dennehy in it? I think Dennehy's in it.

It's been a while since I've seen it. I think so. I know it's out on Blu-ray. I'm thinking of buying the Blu-ray because otherwise you watch like a really shitty VHS YouTube. Get the blue. Yep, Denny, he's in there.

Yes! We've got... And Peter Strauss is the... Okay. And then, of course, past and future guest Richard Lawson. Is there an actor named Richard Lawson? Yeah, you don't know that guy?

No. He's one of those guys. He's an African-American actor. Oh, yes, the director of Trolls. I don't think I know this guy. It's like six bits deep. You know, he's a... We're inceptioning bits here.

Yeah, he's a guy, right? How else would you describe him? He's a that guy. You're like, oh, yeah, sure, sure, I know that guy. I'm looking him up now. There's some Poltergeist, Streets of Fire. Good movies. Good movies. Good movies too.

Wow. All right. But anyway, we're not talking about the Jericho. No, we're not. Sorry. We're talking about Richard Lawson's IMDb page. Oh, right. We're talking about Blackhead.

But as you say, I'd love to see him make another movie. I like this movie a lot. I don't want this to be his last movie. He's only 75. I think he can turn out some more. can riddly scott it for a while right he's an active guy you know i mean he's he's he's a serial developer of things and eventually some of them happen and some of them don't and you know do you know better like that's what always like he's someone who right he can sit on projects for a while. He doesn't make movies quickly, usually, although sometimes he has sort of creative flurries. Yeah.

But how, after six years, is this the movie that comes, like, that he actually signed, like, Greenlight? Like, this actually happened? There's six years between Public Enemy and Public Enemy. Yeah, Public Enemy is 09. This is 15. I mean, I guess it was meant for 14. It got sort of shunted to January.

Right. But, like, how is it, like, you're like, you know what? Yeah, the hacker drama with Thor. Okay, I got a take on this. Well, he produces, too. No, I know he produces. Of course, right. Like, why is this the one he settled on?

Not that I disapprove, exactly. I'm just sort of intrigued that the more prestigey things we've heard him be attached to don't go. Like the Ferrari movie. Yeah. You know, whatever.

There's some more Oscar-y sounding things. I think, to some degree, this is my conjecture. I think to some degree, in a weird way, he was able to disguise this to make it sound like it was a more commercial film. Sure. Because it was modern. You got Thor. You got a big, sexy movie star. You got China.

You know, you can get the Chinese market. That's the big thing is you have Legendary. Legendary is now being acquired by a Chinese company at the time that this movie is going into development they're the sort of first big production company to really put an emphasis on

like we have to make films that work in Asian markets and I think he pitched them a movie that sounded like the math added up when if you actually look at this movie

of course this movie didn't do well it's insane it did as poorly as it did but of course this movie at a fucking $70 million budget or whatever it is is not going to perform at that level.

He was also working on it for years. They shot it all around the world and I remember this thing being a movie on the horizon forever. I feel like in interviews he would talk about, like, I'm just very interested in this world

this would be one of those things where he's like here's a profession, here's a subculture here's a shifting landscape that I'm interested in, I'm just doing research and research and research trying to figure out what the story is there yeah I think that's how he works really

and I also feel like this film actually kind of fits in this loose trilogy with miami vice and public enemies i mean there is this kind of look at how surveillance and technology has kind of infiltrated our lives i mean you could even look at those three movies as i mean the order would have to be reversed but it's kind of a progression right i mean you look at public enemies and it's about technology yeah and surveillance and how they completely overwhelm you know this this like outlaw figure who's you know trying to trying to get away from both the mob and the authorities and meanwhile both sides are like you know rapidly changing and becoming much more modern.

The very nature of crime is shifting around them. The definition of, right. Like digital crime versus analog crime, right? That's what Public Enemies is about for sure. That's what Miami Vice is about kind of. This feels very of a piece with Miami Vice. Sure, sure. But I mean, the thing for me is, I'll say, I think the context in which this movie plays the worst is the exact context we have

created I think if you were watching this at the end of watching 11 Michael Mann movies in quick succession largely in order the movie plays worse than like when it came out in theaters and a lot of people dismissed it and I saw it I was like this is an interesting movie this is a Michael Mann movie there's a lot going on. I'm comparing this to the other movies in the landscape right now. Yeah. If you're watching it three weeks after you watch, like, Collateral,

I don't know how well the movie... You might be like, oh, weird. Huh. This feels sloppier. This feels weird. And it also is, like, the whole thing, I think the thing that made everyone write this movie off

in the lead-up to its release, which is the ridiculous element that people just either can't get past or someone like me, I think is what makes the movie interesting, is like it's a hacker movie in which Thor plays the hacker and he's also the best fighter in the world

and he's super fucking cool. 100%. It's like a crazy Hong Kong movie in that way. Like it has that vibe, right? There's an element of it being like a Stallone or like a Schwarzenegger or a Cruise movie where it's like the whole movie has to be about how this guy's the best. Except it's a movie star

whose persona is not that. He just is this perfect genetic specimen. His persona is not that set, really. Yeah, he hasn't settled into his I'm kind of funny too thing yet. Wait, what were you going to say, Bill Graham? No, I was going to say, I mean, except that I remember at the time people said,

oh God, you know, this guy, you know, Chris Hemsworth doesn't look anything like a hacker. But I kept thinking to myself, well, but he could conceivably look like somebody who's been in jail for years and has been like working out. Yeah, right. Here's my other thing. What does a hacker look like? Yeah, right. What are they supposed to look like?

Get over it. I think we're still kind of married to this definition of a hacker from 30 years ago, which is why I almost exclusively auditioned to play hackers. So if you threw that prism, you know, it's a question. Imagine you were blackout. I'd be great in black. You wouldn't rule. Stop a guy with a screwdriver. But what's ironic is that the movie actually contains that stereotype in the villain,

who is this, like, slobby guy in a basement somewhere. Right, poorly nobody. Right. Like, it's just at home all the time. But that's the point, is it's like being a hacker is equivalent now to, like, being a doctor. Like, it used to be there was one type of super antisocial indoor neurotic who would be a hacker. Right. But now, like, a hacker could be one of 18

stereotypes. And I think the bigger thing is Michael Mann is obviously obsessed with, like, these guys who are driven to power. Sure. Feeling some sort of rush, being able to do something well, do something that makes them feel in control of their own lives, of the universe, of whatever it is.

And you go, like, what he's doing is he's recasting in a way that's actually overdue the idea of a hacker being like a modern thief. And there's so many movies about bank heists and thieves that are incredibly handsome,

attractive, buff movie stars. When in real life, most thieves probably look like Jim Belushi. You know? They should. Right. And so no one goes like, well, a real thief wouldn't look like George Clooney. That's impossible. You're, of course not.

You're right. I mean, right, because people have seen To Catch a Thief or whatever. It's one of those movies. Like the handsome thief. Most people don't look like George Clooney. Right, exactly. I mean, this is also a fact. That's right.

I always, I'm just usually very opposed to what you're talking about. The sort of like this movie stars in a movie playing a character. Yeah. He's a movie star. No one looks like him. And it's like, he's a movie star. You just said it.

He should be the star of the movie. That's how the rules work. The argument with Hemsworth is there's a little bit for him. And some of this is out of his control. Hemsworth is like a tree trunk. That's what I was going to say. And it's also out of his control because he hit the map playing four.

He hit the map playing, right, a Hezgarnian god. So everyone's impression of him is like, oh, this perfect golden god, like a literal golden god. There's a little bit of the Schwarzenegger thing or the rock thing where when he enters a room,

you want people to be like, no one else thinks it's crazy this guy looks like this. Someone call the media. Even guy looks like this someone call the media right even a movie like this where he's relatively toned down you expect that every scene is interrupted by a guy being like hey i'm a talent agent please take my car you should do commercials or something like someone needs to acknowledge you're wearing the hell out of that undershirt right right but i do think we accept these things of like traditionally like unbelievably handsome, charismatic X Factor movie stars can play cops and they can play robbers and they can play all these other sort of badass, powerful types that Michael Mann is usually obsessed with.

And the hacker is one that's still stuck in this sort of antiquated stereotype. And he's just like, no, the movie is about a world in which the power is shifted. stereotype and he's just like no the movie is about a world in which the power is shifted and now the type of guy that i'm interested in as a movie character wouldn't be robbing a bank the thing he would do is learn how to code so i'm still going to make a movie about the same kind of guy his skill is just going to be different he literally made a movie about how bank robbing became an essentially unprofitable activity where it's like that's that scene in Public Enemy. Right.

Where Frank Nitti is like, I make what you steal in a day. Like, you know, every day. Like, what's the point of you anymore? Right. And this is just another classic Michael Manker. I mean, he even has the, like, I don't burn people line, which is almost exactly the same line that Al Pacino says in The Insider. Like, I don't burn people.

Right. It's like these guys of principle who also are kind of scoundrels who are pissing everyone off. But imagine if Pacino had been the hacker. I mean, that's the thing. You go, like, in 1987, it probably would have been.

Sounds good. Yeah. But that's also a concession to, in 2015, 2014, whatever, if he wants to make this movie, he needs to cast a superhero. That's the only way he's going to get his financing. But this is also one of the only, I feel like it's the only movie

with none of his guys in it. John Ortiz. John Ortiz is the one exception, right? Yeah. Right. But you're kind of like, you're sort of looking for those man fellas, those faces. Bruce McGill. Yeah. And I hope McElhinney should be in every Michael Mann movie. Yeah, absolutely. If there are more Michael Mann movies, you know he's right there.

There's a new ensemble at his fingertips here. Viola Davis turns out to be a perfect Michael Mann company player. Viola Davis, I mean, then she made Widows, which is basically like a Michael Mann spirit movie, right? So this is a question for you. She's so suited to it. For you right off the bat, Bilge. I saw the theatrical when it came out in theaters.

I saw the director's cut, which is now streaming on FX. Yeah, it's on the FX Now app. And on the app. But it says, like, this version has been modified. No, but that's just airplane language. Now, I had also read that the director's cut when he played it at BAM was 2 hours 16. And this cut came in at, like, 2.9. So I feel like this definitely was the cut where it's rearranged,

where the, the power plant happens halfway through or whatever. It was that sequencing, but I was trying to figure out if scenes were missing or not. And there was a scene I was waiting for the whole movie that didn't happen. And I now I'm trying to figure out, did I create the scene in my mind, which is very possible, or did I watch a cut of this movie that doesn't have and I know I'm trying to figure out did I create this scene in my mind which is very possible

or did I watch a cut of this movie that doesn't have this scene in it? I remember there being a scene where Viola Davis tells Chris Hemsworth a story about her husband. No. She offhandedly mentions.

Right. There's that scene where she mentions it. She mentions it to Holt McElhaney where he goes, who did you lose? And she sayshandedly mentions. Right, there's that scene where she mentions it. She mentions it to Holt McElhaney, where he goes, who did you lose? And she says, my husband. There's a scene with John Ortiz where she invokes 9-11 and she says, I lost people, you don't get to tell me. What did she say to Hemsworth? Maybe in my head blew it up to be a bigger moment.

I don't remember her saying anything to Hemsworth. Right? Okay, those are the two mentions. She says it on the phone to John Ortiz. Yeah. Right? And theyemsworth. Right? Okay. Those are the two mentions. She says it on the phone to John Ortiz. Yeah. Right? And they hear it.

Right. And then Holt McElhinney asks her about it later. And in fact, the first time I saw the film, I missed that. Yeah. That initial mention of it

to John Ortiz so that later on it seemed to come out of the blue, which I actually thought was kind of interesting. I thought it was kind of cool where he's like,

I know who you are. Like, I know what kind of a public servant you are. Yeah. I think I created this scene in my head because the mental image was outside of the airport where the car gets bombed, where Viola Davis gets

killed. I remember the two of them standing outside there and her talking about her husband. Not in like some big emotional confessional way. I don't remember the scene. I remember that being like oh that's viola's oscar scene i invented it yes sergey eisenstein is like applauding in his grave right now like this is this is his like theory of montage just like personified right right because she's not even in that location at the point when that scene would happen you're just like you know what i'm sure viola would rock that scene i think honestly i was like right yeah uh but no that's

not really black hat style anyway no black hat style is more offhand kind of like yeah yeah yeah so i my assumption is the reason they move the power plant up to the cold open of the movie is because at some point the studios went wait a second the first act of this movie is just about soy futures right it's it must have been that they thought it was too slow a bill right like we gotta get some steaks instant steaks here and it can't just be the soy futures are expensive they probably wanted a pop and i wouldn't and i don't know that it would have been did too i yeah i think man probably thought that way too. I will say, I mean, as much as I love this movie,

and I've watched it, you know, I've watched both versions many times. The one thing that I do think, I do think that maybe there needed to be one more hack. Like, because the director's cut works much better. It does, yeah. But it is kind of like this this like soy futures hack or chicago mercantile exchange hack and then like all hell breaks loose and they're pulling people out of prison to like help them and like it feels like something more urgent needs to happen for this

whole you know hathaway business to really work desperate measures call for desperate yeah yeah for him whatever you want. Literally the only guy in the world who can help us solve this is like in prison and we need to get him out and we don't have any time. Like so it makes sense

for there to be like a like a reactor explosion or something. I do think that's like a weird example of the like speaking of like Eisenstein

and creating weird meaning through like edits and juxtapositions of things. I think the theatrical version has more urgency to it. Sure. Because it starts with a catastrophic event. Even

if the placement of that event doesn't make any sense you kind of accept it as like an underlying tension to every scene that then weirdly isn't referenced until halfway through the movie. Well and it's like weirdly after all this other shit happens

they finally go to the site and it's like well, yeah, like, weirdly, like, they, after all this other shit happens, they finally go to the site. Oh, we should go there. Right. And it's, like, cuts to, like, the exact same shot of these guys running. It's, like, literally 10 seconds later. I remember in the theater being, like, this is clearly what happened. Like, before the story had even leaked out of, like, oh, he reassembled the chronology. Right.

It was just, like, clearly this was not supposed to happen this early in the movie. Yeah. Of course. was just like clearly this was not supposed to happen this early in the movie yeah but the other thing that happens is yes there is some urgency at the beginning when you put the reactor at the beginning but then the story kind of de-escalates yeah that's the whole problem which is interesting like because i mean it goes from i mean it starts with a like a nuclear reactor and then it goes to you know soy futures and finally it's like he's cornering the market on tin? Yeah.

That's what I, I mean, right. That's the Michael Manniness, though. I love it, where he's like, you don't understand. Soy is everything, you know, right. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, in the director's cut, that scene, which is not in the theatrical, but of the ship trying to. Yes. Yeah, right. That weird scene at the port of the ship trying to... Yes, yeah, right. That weird scene at the port of Amsterdam.

It's a really good scene. Great scene, but like the most Michael Mann thing you can imagine because it's like, you know, the ship can't dock. Not because there's anything wrong with the ship. Insurance. Right, it's like their cargo's value has increased so they don't have the requisite amount of insurance to die.

It's like, that is the most Michael Mann thing you can imagine. And also, you see in that scene, in a nutshell, why Michael Mann wanted to make a movie about cybercrime. Because it's so weird that someone can do something on a remote laptop in two seconds that jeopardizes a boat currently in motion. You know? That immediately, the ripple effect of that right while disconnected is so strong that a boat just stops but right and i i like all that and that notion that like our relationship with china is so fraught in the cyber security sector but so important in the trade sector yeah and like that it's all getting flipped around but yeah that's some that's some dad reading an economist article you know level of

tension and then they stomped the boat right like i don't see like universal execs being like hold up a second the insurance oh my this is we gotta rush this to production yeah like as you say belga it doesn't feel to me like it's a studio mandated thing. I would just as soon believe that man came to that decision himself because he's like, oh fuck, I want to be more exciting. But it does feel like a kind of panicked thing of like, can you have the movie start

with something that feels this much out of the Wall Street Journal? At this budget level, sold as an action movie. It's like, you know, I kind of want my ideal hybrid version of this movie to be like, there's the reactor explosion at the beginning, and then it happens again.

I don't know what the escalation of that is, but that, exactly. Then he fires a nuke. I don't know. What's a cool hacker thing to do? That's this other thing I think he's exploring in this, is like, so I understand now the people who know how to work computers are more powerful than any people have ever been right the amount you can

the more we connect everything to computers the more we empower them if you speak that language those who are the most fluent have a greater capacity to affect the entire world in a moment than anyone ever has especially if they're black hats which are like hackers who are like i just want to soak chaos and be bad. Right. But his thing is like, how do I make this visually exciting? How do I make an action film out of a thing that, in terms of the

physical action, is pretty fucking boring? And I think he's experimenting so much with like, how do you construct the story around it so that it has consequence? How do you make the foot chases around the hackings? You know, ticking clocks on the hackings. And then also

all the weird shit he's doing with like, how am I going to shoot this? Yeah, let's have lines moving through wires. Yeah, and the whole thing feels to me like a visual exercise. Yes. Because I mean, every other shot in the film has some sort of grid in it even if like

I mean even if it's not a grid it's like everything is patterned in that way and even the way Hathaway moves through space is like

like early on in the prison you see him through the bars as they're carrying him but then like that echoes later when the scene

with the in Indonesia in the parade where he's like slowly making his way towards towards Kassar through these lines of people yeah yeah I mean it's like it's parade where he's like slowly making his way towards through these lines of people it's like finally he's

he finally has some agency and he's able to move through this world finally you know and Michael Mann's a city guy he's ghost manning around Michael Mann's a city guy right and obviously one of his most recurring uh he loves his his nighttime cityscape

seeing the grid of a city in the lights yeah at a distance where you can't see the individual people or the cars but you understand the way the city is bustling when i saw this in theaters and the first time it goes inside the computer i was like oh fuck is he messing this up like is he like trying to be like, computers are exciting! Because there's so many Swordfish-esque movies in which they speed ramp through the circuit board, and you're like, okay, this

is too performative. But the thing he does is he stays in these things for a long time, and the longer you're inside a computer, you're looking at a circuit board, you're looking at the wires, you're looking at the literal internet or whatever he's sort of showing you, the more cold and desolate it becomes. And the more you start paying attention to the weird patterns and the grids and all that sort of stuff. And it's like for him, it's just another city.

Yeah. You know? 100%. Absolutely. And it's like if he did one really fast 15-second thing, I'd be like, grandpa's trying to show us the internet. He gets the internet. Series of tubes. Right.

But when it lasts for like 85 seconds, you're like, this scares him. Oh, yeah. And then there's one moment where like the action of like what's happening on the, it like slows down. Yes. And there's like almost like a, I can't remember if it's like almost a close up on one of the other, one of the lights in the corner as as if we're supposed to know what that means. He likes the

dramatic flashing. Like, oh, I see. This is all the take. That is crazy. Yes, of course it's crazy. A single light going off, like a microscopic light in a box. Can destroy everything in a moment.

Because this is about there was a real program that disrupted the Iranian rid of it right can like destroy everything in a moment um because he's he this is about like this there was a real program that like disrupted the iranian nuclear program so incredibly even though it was secret i think yeah like that's what he's initially inspired by that like there were these cyber attacks that basically just like shut down whole reactors that we didn't even know about because unlike attacks of of physical violence which end up on the news these things are sort of silent what the fuck right fucking hell like you know it's just that it's us calling verizon and being like i i can't i can't watch succession on hbo and the amount of

time in the first chunk of this movie that is devoted to christian borle right who is like one of broadway's best like musical comedy actors. Playing like a guy at an office who's like, I didn't let anyone use my computer. Why is everyone on my case? And they're like, are you sure?

He's like, yeah, I'm sure. Well, except for that one guy. But that's the thing. It feels so like that couldn't actually cause anything bad to happen. This is a movie where like a phishing attack is like a pivotal second act action sequence. Right.

William McPother succumbing to a phishing attack. Yeah. What else? There's another thing. Well, right. And then the USB. Right. The telltale USB.

Yeah. The hotel lobby. Yeah. Any of those things. It's like. But like there's movies like Entrapment that are the same fucking thing, but they suck.

Right. You're right. It's very hard to make this feel like it has any stake. He's not interested in the things that make... Those movies try to make this stuff sexy by actually sexing it up. They always default to like,

what if someone had sex basically while this was happening? That's the swordfish move. That's the entrapment move. Can we literally just have naked bodies right there? Is that a way to make this spicier? But in Man's case,

it's like, no, no, no. I'm going to make it sexy by just showing you how a circuit board is like a cityscape at night which like the man fans like us are like oh my god that is totally sexy and the regal court street that I saw

oh it's empty oh no it's here no and the guy is sexy and the lady is sexy and they have sexy sex once they've finished hacking they put their computers away they have that classic man sex, though, where you're sort of squinting at the frame for a second. You're like, is this one body or two?

Okay, oh, I see. But he doesn't click her boobs. There isn't a scene where she's getting off on how well he hacks. I think that's a thing in all the sort of 90s, early 2000s cybercrime movies we're talking about where it's like the woman starts to get off when the guy is coding really fast.

Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, and they're like, this guy doesn't code like other people. He's like a rebel coder. Absolutely. You know? This isn't your granddaddy's computer program. Right. And this movie is just like, no, they're like professionals. It's like math. You know that Hugh Jackman isn't your granddaddy's computer coder because he lives in an Airstream trailer and plays golf

off the roof. Remember that? That movie's crazy. That movie is actually insane. Terrible. It's truly bad, but it's one of those movies where you watch it and you're like, this has a little more deeper roots in the culture than I thought it would at the time. You know what I mean? There's a lot of movies like

this. Oh, yeah. And obviously it's a derivative movie itself, but it is insane. Dominic Senna? Is that a Dominic Senna? It's a Dominic Senna but it's it is insane Dominic Senna is that a dominant extenna yeah what's he up to now I think he did season of the witch do you know my beloved season of the way good have you it is a good movie I like season of the way I like season I bring it up all the time people think I was his last reclaiming as a trash masterpiece I think that's actually a really good fun you know I really enjoyed it.

He's a musical video director. Claire Foy, great in that movie. Oh yeah, absolutely. Her breakup. Her best performance. His five movies. The titular witch. The titular witch.

I've already spoiled the twist on this podcast. Right, that she is Satan. Right. I think that's such a brilliant twist. The whole movie is like, is she a witch or not? Do witches exist?

And they're like, no, the witch thing was like a Narci Satan. Witches? You, is she a witch or not? Do witches exist? And they're like, no, the witch thing was like an Archie Satan. Witches? You wish she was a witch. He made California, Gone in 60 Seconds, Swordfish, Whiteout, Season of the Witch. It's five and out for Dominic. Remind me how you spell California.

Oh, with a K. Oh, very cool. At least it's not with a backwards K. That would be the doubling. Yes. Right. A hat on a hat. When the trailer goes like...

So you know it's extra twisted. No, but I think... I view this movie... The weird movie I view this as a sister piece to is Night of Cups. Sure. Another fine film. Yep.

My favorite of the three Malik sort of you know question personal plot light sort of uh what what is it to be a person right and in both cases describe how would you describe people call them the twirly movies or whatever but i don't know what the word is twirly's are good i think bill is making their face he doesn't know no i wouldn't call him the twirly movies twirling that's all first all, there's twirling in the other movies. I know, he's twirl heavy. Twirling's alright. Whatever those three movies are. You know, I always want to call them

the autobiographical trilogy except that like Tree of Life is also autobiographical. Tree of Life is the sort of one foot in each world. See, my thing is, what I view those three films as are, I'm going to make three movies trying to explain and explore

why I didn't make a movie for 20 years. Right, yeah. Like, the whole mythology of Terrence Malick that was like, why did he disappear? All these contrasting stories. How did he come back? Did he have a total mental breakdown? Was he, like, above the industry?

Was he below the industry? Like all three of those movies are like I mean To the Wonder is the relationship that he had during those wilderness years and Night of Cups

is like how he felt like a fucking phony when he was at the peak of his success. Yeah, it's his Barton Fink. Right. And then Song to Song

is like his like the industry is evil movie. Right. And then Song to Song is like his the industry is evil movie. Sure. Right. And also I think Song to Song is also about

how Austin has changed. Right. Yes. Which I don't know much about. This is actually something I've heard from other people who are like actually that film

for people in Austin who I guess are in tune with Malick movies that film actually has a lot of you know very personal resonance apparently. They're interesting movies. I think Nine has a lot of very personal resonance, apparently. They're interesting movies.

I think Knives Cups is the best. I agree. And I think Knives Cups was the one that people laughed off the most because they were like, this feels like self-parody. Well, also like Dan Harmon's in it. I think people were just baffled by it.

But that to me is... I agree, I like it. It's the one with least narrative. Correct. Yes, pretty much no narrative. Right. But it's broken into the relationships. And the key to the movie is all the weird, like, why is Joe Latrullio in this?

Why is Dan Harmon in this? Why are there so many comedy writers and sketch performers? And apparently he, like, encouraged them to do long improv riffs on set explicitly trying to be funny. Right. I made this comment on the podcast and someone who had worked on that movie said like, you're totally right. When we were filming it, I mean, when we were filming it,

when it was being filmed, I was working on the movie. He very much was describing this to people as a comedy. Right. It's like, how can a guy who's this successful is literally having like a guy come up to him with an envelope of $2 million and be like, it's a shitty script.

Just do a rewrite, two days. Right. And then and then goes like nature how you burn inside of me you know like what what the fuck is this thing can't help himself in the same way where it's like why is thor playing a computer hacker who still acts like a michael man character like is this soft parody but i think both are in addition to you know whatever the personal things are for them. I think this movie is Michael Mann trying to figure out how much the world that he's been interested in his entire career has morphed. I think part of it is also that he's trying to... The movie itself is, I think, struggling to find a kind of language to describe what's happening on screen.

For example, there'll be a couple of language to describe what's happening on screen. Right? I mean, like, is, for example, there'll be a couple of scenes where somebody just, like, hits a button very casually and something horrible happens. But then there'll be other scenes where, you know, there'll be, like, a close-up of a computer button and it's, like, the sound is like a gunshot. And it's, like, is this thing really,

is the important thing here that it's really significant? really is the important thing here that it's really significant or the right is the important thing here that it's totally insignificant and it's like the movie actually keeps like changing in that way um so you get the sense that like everything is constantly in flux visually even sonically in the film and i think that actually reflects kind of the whole idea of cyber crime and living in this world where technology rules everything right and that these crimson feel victimless or like you maybe have no concept human concept of the chaos you're wreaking public enemies has that too like right i mean like the very form of the movie changes as it progresses like it starts off looking kind of very filmy and

by the end it's very video-y but like the whole movie is about like the encroachment of technology so like the form of the film actually bears out the themes of the film which i think is you know fascinating right but the film also boils down to him having a face-to-face meeting with a guy using entirely rudimentary objects. You know? In the middle of an ancient, like, traditional ceremony. Yeah. And the guy even says something. Oh, no, I mean, Hathaway actually says, like, he has a line, it's like,

no codes, no keyboards, no screen. Where he's suddenly yelling a manifesto in the middle of this festival, where they're about to stab each other. No ones and zeros. No ones and zeros, right. And then the other guy says something like, you know, I have other people do sub-symbolic stuff for me. Which, like, that is also such a,

like, only Michael Mann would ever have the villain in, like, the climactic scene use the expression sub-symbolic. Like, whatever the fuck that means. Yeah, it's a fair point. Meaning, like, human interaction, interaction i think is what he means i don't know also the villain doesn't show up basically until the last 20 minutes of the movie like you'll cut to him sort of just like you know shambling around and like hitting some buttons in

a basement but they're both just kind of chaos people yeah right i mean they're both people who are kind of addicted to how much power they can now hold because of their mastery of this technology right i mean there is this thing that we're sort of talking around which is that like uh i i feel like uh technology has advanced faster than our understanding of how it has changed storytelling has been able to sort of like uh uh i don't know crystallize if that makes sense yeah like just the amount of this is like a hacky fucking thing but everyone says this all the time where you like watch movies from 15 20 years ago and you're like this plot wouldn't exist if this character had a cell phone right you know there's so many films like that where it's just like if

this technology existed if they had access to if they were able to locate this person, you know? Like After Hours is a movie that doesn't exist. And even if the plot is his cell phone falls out the window along with his wallet, it's still easier for him to sort of recobble what he needs to get home. Yeah, of course. He can just like log

into some shit. Right. There are just like a ton of things he could do. it also, I think it's a bigger thing log into some shit. Right. There are just like a ton of things he could do. And it also, I think it's a bigger thing is how it's affected visual storytelling. You know, I think it's fucked with film and TV more than anything because

these powerful movements aren't exciting looking. You know, someone having a fight with their girlfriend over text is not very cinematic. You know, it doesn't work on stage. It doesn't work on screen.

You can write it as a book and text, you know, even that's kind of boring. Yeah. It makes me think of the Twitter joke. I feel like I've seen a few people say this where, um, it's like they're, they,

they are texting or writing. I'm screaming. And literally in that moment, they're sitting there there with a blank stare on their face. I don't actually laugh out loud, guys. I'm sorry. I'm not

laughing my ass off. I thought he was getting his butt off. I thought he was slapping his side. I was hoping for at least a couple chucks. If I stop thinking about you, if I stop thinking about anything, it disappears. Is the at least a couple chucks. Right. If I stop thinking about you, if I stop thinking about anything, it disappears,

is the line I was trying to remember. Right. There's a thing, though, that, like, technology has made us somewhat sociopathic in how divorced our emotions are from what we're actually doing

because they're disconnected because they're remote and satellite and all that sort of shit. And the nature of storytelling is like show, don't tell. And the nature of technology is a lot of telling things. I mean, even like coding and hacking is like typing commands into a

computer, being like, do this. Which the Soy Futures thing manifests as just a guy being like, vote's done. But you understand why they're like, we only have one explosion in the movie in this way, you know? And it's a realistic explosion too. You don't see a power plant go kaboom.

You see it melt down and one part of it explodes. It's very realistic. But then when they blow up a car, you're like, this is weird. These hackers are just blowing up cars. With a bazooka. They're showing just like blowing up with a bazooka right that they're like showing up in a place with a bazooka but like but this is also such a michael man thing

where like there's this whole section of the movie where they you know the bad guy gets on a boat on a motorboat goes out to a ship gets the bazooka goes back to shore you know just so we can later have the scene where he blows up this car I mean and I guess that would make sense also because otherwise we'd be like how the hell

did this guy suddenly get a bazooka but it's such a weird little thing like he has to explain how he gets this thing it's a scene that when you're watching

the movie for the first time you're like there's no way I'm going to retain this I'm sorry I don't know what's going on you're already throwing weights on the chat

exactly right black hat but yeah but then there is a cool bazooka scene. Holt McElhaney gets shot so hard that he sort of like flies like a rag doll. Which you know that

they researched. I mean, I'm sure they did. Because like, he's very particular about making sure that like when someone gets shot, they get shot the way that it would happen in real life. Here's a question I have. Is Chris Hemsworth doing Michael Mann? Is that the voice he's doing?

On my third rewatch, having now I've been listening to a bunch of commentaries too, like he's doing a Chicago guy. He is, yeah. Well, he's from, the character's supposed to be from Chicago. Which is hilarious.

It is like, it's so Michael Mann. Where they're like, it's the Chicago mercantile. And you're like, okay. And a lot of lead actors are playing their directors. Oh yeah, sure. That's a big thing.

When you spend, if you're the lead actor, you're spending a lot of time with the director and you're trying to piece it together and the director is the one who's explaining, this is what I think

the story's about. This is the one. But I just, I feel like people ragged on Hemsworth's accent in this movie. I think it's very good. I think it's fine.

I think it's fine. I think he's good. I think he's good in the movie. I think he's good in the movie too. I think they're misplacing what is jarring about him being in the movie. I think it's very good. I think it's fine. I think it's fine. Yeah, I think he's good. I think he's good in the movie. I think he's good in the movie too. I think they're misplacing what is jarring about him being in the film. Sure.

It's not his accent. It's that he's Chris Hemsworth. It's that he doesn't seem like a human being ever. You know, he's better than us. It is fine. I mean, Michael Mann's such a movie star guy.

Like, he really relies on those guys to like sell all the things we've been talking about in a like commercial and fun way. And also to get his movies made.

And to get his movies made of course. That's his greatest superpowers these guys want to be in his movies. And Hemsworth is a movie star. Yeah. Like there's no

I'm not disputing that. But especially at this time because I think the Moby Dick movie is maybe this year. Comes in between the two Ron Howards

I want to say. Yeah. He's great in Rush. In the Heart of the Sea is a bit of this year. This comes in between the two Ron Howards, I want to say. Yeah, he's great in Rush. In the Heart of the Sea is a bit of a nothing. And the Heart of the Sea comes after this, right? I think you're right. They're both kind of delayed movies. They were both much delayed.

And it was that, so, and I think, and it's certainly, it's like pre-Ragnarok. Like, it's pre-Thor being fun. Right. I think Thor is fun, to be quick. But the commercial perception of Thor is fun. And so I think there was that atmosphere especially

among deadline type writers of like Chris Hemsworth can he open a movie? Do people care about Chris Hemsworth at all? It's when he wasn't really cool. He's very cool now. There was a resentment towards him as if he were like a Sam Worthington where it's like, are they forcing us

to view this guy as a movie star? Exactly. Like, do you deserve to be in the Michael Mann movie yet, Chris? We'll accept Thor, but like, don't tell us we have to buy Hemsworth.

And it was that weird thing of like, you know, he's done a couple tiny things. Then he gets Thor, right? Yeah. And it's like a big deal that he's like the only like totally unknown actor

to get one of these movies. Yeah. And that everyone else who had been in the running for Thor was someone of some some sort of recognition. Right. Right. But so it was like a big announcement of like Marvel's betting big on this guy who just got off the plane. Right.

And then he does his kind of like hard to see rush Black Cat. It feels like him doing a classic like I want to show that I really want to be a serious movie star. And I want to be able to do like the DiCaprio Damon thing where I like go to real serious directors and make adult films that can only get financed because I'm putting my name on them. Right. And the problem is that all of those films underperform. Well, because that age is over. It's done. That's the thing.

It's like Tom Cruise pulled that off back in the day and kind of established the model. And now those kinds of films, I mean, they might get made occasionally, but they don't do well. I'd say Bradley Cooper is the closest to being able to pull that off in that sort of way. There are the guys who are still running off of that, like DiCaprio, which is just because they've had a really good track record 20 years of maintaining a source standard quality. Some of those people were able to do that. But most of those guys spend, especially now, spend a lot longer going through the motions of building up your international numbers before you then start flexing the muscle.

And it's like he extended his movie star status too wide too early. And then I feel like it's so telling that now he's just like, just a franchise guy. You know? He is so much a franchise guy. Well, you're forgetting 12 Strong, though. I were 12 Strong. Hey, you know what?

You are very correct. I completely forgot that 12 Strong, the untold story of the horror soldiers, existed. That's correct. Came out last year. Yeah. It premiered at Jazz at Lincoln Center. I forgot that. Did you forget that it premiered at Jazz at Lincoln Center. I forgot that.

Did you forget that it premiered at Jazz at Lincoln Center? I weirdly remembered that. I remember the evening. I just couldn't remember what was on the screen. You were there, of course. I was there, of course. Every night you're there at Jazz at Lincoln Center. Always. I'm hoping Damon Wayans is gonna get up. And then, you know, because yeah, his 2018 was 12 strong. 12 strong.

Infinity War. And Bad Times at the El Royale. Right. Which was sort of him doing a favor to his buddy Drew Goddard. This year he's got Endgame, Men in Black International, which looks like a piece of shit. But who knows? Who knows? I don't know. At this point, it probably has already won Best Picture.

Yeah, that's right. It has come out in theaters and they had just gone, forget the rest of the year. It's the new green book. It just, I know Men in Black is a completely sort of forgotten franchise. That you and I love.

That a lot of our friendship is based around. Do you not love Men in Black? I said that the first one was a masterpiece and Bilge was like, Barry Sonnenfeld has never directed a masterpiece.

Yeah, yeah. The words masterpiece and Men in Black should never, ever, has never directed a masterpiece. Yeah, yeah. The words masterpiece and Men in Black should never, ever, ever. He's directed four Stonewall masterpieces. Oh my god. What is happening right now? I would say there are at least three inarguable. The first Adam's is not a

masterpiece. Okay, so then I'll say three. Values, Get Shorty. Oh yeah, Get Shorty's good. I would not call that a masterpiece. I love Get Shorty. I think it's a perfect movie. Great movie. I think... And Nine Lives master I love Get Shorty I think it's a perfect movie great movie I think and Nine Lives I think three stars is his ceiling you think he's a three star general?

I think he is a three star ceiling guy well I think I mean as I've said like the story of Sonnenfeld is crazy where he basically is an incredibly reliable

like fun 90s movie director he makes Wild Wild West and like I guess Satan just came for whatever. That was it. He claimed his soul that day, because he's never made anything remotely good since. Look, Man in Black is one of those objects that I'm obsessed with, as you are. And I feel like it holds a lot of the same power as Ghostbusters, where it's like, when you've seen the 10 years, 20 years of movies following it failing to

replicate that, you go like how did everything go right on this movie? And so it's one of those movies where anytime I have any opportunity to talk to anyone who was involved in that first movie, I pump them for stories and I always try to get the sense of like what happened to Sonnenfeld and everyone's answer is like I don't know he just

stopped being good. There was no thing. And it kind of falls into like, It's like Rob Reiner. It's another one where it's like, there's almost just a line you draw, and you're like, before, pretty good, most of the after, universally bad.

Rob Reiner has one of the great track records in cinema history, and then it just falls off a cliff. But it's one of those things where you go like— He's like a surefire hit before and a surefire worst movie the year after. That's how good it is. That's how consistent he is in both directions. Right, but he's major.

He's making major moves. He's not releasing four movies in the last year starring Woody Harrelson that no one knows about. He's done like four Woody Harrelson— I know, he keeps making a movie about like a New York Times article he read. He keeps doing that where he's like, can you believe it? Like someone links to something on

Facebook and then he immediately He's got that Castle Rock money. He's got that Castle Rock money. No, but some of those guys, it's weird because it's not like they're like idiot savants, but it's like there's a period of time where they're just in the pocket and every instinct they have is correct. And then they're not in the pocket anymore and they're still operating solely off of instinct. And their instincts are just wrong now.

But I think it's also they're not getting the scripts that they're used to. I mean, that's part of it's that with those guys. I mean, with a guy like Mann, it's obviously different because he generally initiates his scripts. Yeah, he's not the credited writer on this one. I don't know the guy who's... It's one credited writer. But I assume Mann had a lot of input on this script. The guy credited on it actually was like...

He worked on Queer Eye or something like that. Yeah, he was like an assistant editor on Click. Wow. And Rescue Me. This is his only script. Yeah, and he's a pretty young writer. Right. He's four years old.

Did he do something else? Was there something else that he did? Like, he kind of looks like Griffin Newman. Like, you know. He does. I could play him. But I gather that he and Man kind of work together. I'm not sure.

That makes sense. I think I read, like, an interview with him or something like that where, you know, like, I think Man kind of guided it it although the script might have existed beforehand I'm not sure right because there's I mean I think of man and Ridley Scott in similar way and there are I think they're obviously pals but like the Ridley Scott method of screenwriting where he like yells at you in

a room while smoking a cigar about everything that's going to happen in the movie he just doesn't have the time to actually write it he's just like and then the aliens gonna you know like he just sort of talks like that for a while you hire someone to write the movie so that you can sit back and rewrite it but but man was a man started off as a writer yeah man is more of a real writing yeah writing is kind of in his dna in that sense i feel like i mean we were talking about that right

when was it when the keep came out there's that old interview you were talking about where he's like i have this script called heat yeah i can't direct it but i'd love someone he's like i think it's the best script i've ever written i i don't think i could ever pull it off like he didn't even think of himself as like worthy of trying that shit right yeah you've met michael man i have we gotta talk about we gotta build a nose michael man he's best friends with michael man my buddy buddy Michael Mann you summer with Michael Mann in Cape Cod that's fucking beach Michael Mann does not summer I don't burn people

I get sun burnt I'm trying to imagine like Michael Mann relaxing and I'm struck does he have kids? yeah his daughters are filmmakers I mean he's got Amy Cannon Mann

made a movie and was like a second unit on Heat, I believe. And he has another daughter? I think so. Let me see. Tell us about hanging out with him. Four kids, according to Wikipedia. How does he dress?

Ben is fashion focused. Black jackets? I don't know. I've met Michael Mann in person like three times uh you know pretty nice guy sure uh not nearly as intense as you might imagine right i would imagine fairly intense but also gruff but also i was not on a movie set with him and i imagine that things get a lot hairier there right right right but you know he's a, he can be a, he can be, you know, he's not a chatty guy, but. Sure.

But he's, he, you know, he has, like, he has a lot of answers that he gives over and over again to questions, but they're good answers. Like, he's got his answers down. Right. And so he actually, like, he thinks about his answers, they're thoughtful answers, and he's got, kind of got them down. And then, like, if you ask him the same question, he will give you the same answer. It's like, you know, it's like, like clock the same question, he will give you the same answer. It's like clockwork. Yeah, it's preloaded.

Wait, it's gone. Whatever my question was, it's completely gone. He has his answers. He's the Chicago guy. His dad was a grocer. The Bears. Oh, yeah. The Balls. Did you ever get an explanation from him

as to why Beautiful by Alejandro Gonzalez-Hurio is one of his top ten movies of all time? And is that still the case or is he just kind of teal now? There's nine other movies, one of which is Avatar, which is interesting but a good choice. Well, he's friends with Inaritu. And he loves his work. He's also a fan of The Revenant. But if I was best friends with Inaritu, right, I'd pick the Revenant before Beautiful. I feel like Beautiful is kind of a weird form of Revenant.

But that was before Revenant. That list is... Is that like a sight and sound list? Amor Esperos. Yeah, you're right. It's a sight and sound list. It was pre-Revenant. Yeah, I mean, so I think Beautiful

was probably just the most recent one. If I were Michael Mann, I would make all of my sight and sound, like the little paragraphs I write, be like, I'm just friends with Alejandro. Like, I just brag about all the friends I have. Like, I just pick movies where I could be like, I'm friends with Quentin Tarantino. We get eggs. Like, we go to a diner sometimes.

Get eggs. Yeah, I don't know. What does one do with Quentin Tarantino? Sit around playing old board games, probably. I think that is literally what one does. Really? Really? Is Quentin Tarantino like a big Settlers of Catan guy?

No, no. I think it's like vintage board games. Wasn't that the whole thing? I remember during the press blitz for Pulp Fiction, all these stories were like the actors he wanted. I think maybe Travolta. Oh, yeah. Travolta and he played like the eight is enough

board game and that was how they bonded he likes like kitsch of course of course it's very Quintet he's not like a serious

like cardboard guy he just likes anything that's like a weird object of Hollywood marginalia right and I mean and he succeeded

in like turning those things into fetish objects for the rest of us right totally right I mean like that's his whole myth. Hong Kong movies, you know, blaxploitation movies, kung fu movies. These were not things.

These were not considered cool at the time, like pre-Tarantino. Yeah. He somehow managed to make them cool. Like some of us watch that stuff, spaghetti westerns, whatever. But like most people, if you said the word spaghetti western, would not know what that was. You know, cultural cachet in the what that was pre-pulp fiction and then afterwards but then that's kind of the thing with Man 2

which we've talked about where it's like he wasn't cool even though he made all these cool things and then all his movies become cool later through TV airings over and over again and then the directors he inspires and then this movie fell into the exact same trap

where people came out and it came out and people were like, it's kind of bad. And then it only took a few years for everyone to be like, was Black Cat kind of great? I feel like it took weeks for it to happen. And then the second it exited theaters, everyone was like, wait, I haven't seen Black Cat yet. Where'd it go?

Isn't it a masterpiece? This is the thing that I always found really baffling about, man, because I remember these like, these movies would come out, and I would go to them and come out, and I'd say, all right, that was good. Sure. But that's going to date really poorly. Uh-huh. Like, I remember, because, you know, his stuff is so kind of weirdly, like, contemporary in that sense. Yes.

Like, the music is very of the moment. Of course. You know, he was a new metal taste. It's like, can we capture this exact moment? That's the goal. Exactly. To get it with

utmost accuracy. Right. And you think to yourself, well, in two years, this is going to look idiotic. Yeah. Right?

And what's amazing is that like, that does not happen. These things actually, if anything, they get cooler. Yeah. Yeah.

A hundred percent. It's almost like they kind of wind up defining what's cool. Yeah. Like, when Pacino's almost like they kind of wind up defining what's cool. Yeah. Like when Pacino's in heat, I feel like some people at the time were like,

here it is definitive evidence. This guy is so fucking off the rails. Like sense of a woman was enough. And now he's just screaming at us. Exactly. Like Pacino is God. Remember what a great actor he used to be. And now people are like,

Pacino and heat's like the best American who ever lived, right? They're just like, I love him. What are you talking about? Or you watch Heat and you're like, all this self-important, weirdly Dickensian stuff getting into people's lives. Who needs that? Just give us the crime thriller.

Cut to 10, 20 years later, everybody's trying to make a crime movie that's that rich and that deep. But you know what's weird? Like, so you saying, you know, in the way that Tarantino made all these things like generally cool for everybody, this is now accepted as cool. With the Miami Vice TV show, Michael Mann totally did that. Where you read about all these trends that were created, like Italian suits were not

popular in the States. Italian clothing lines were not popular with men's wear. Pastels were not popular in the states italian clothing lines sure we're not popular with men's right those colors i mean all these sorts of things the music he was using the colors he was all this sort of shit and that show just like hits like a fucking atom bomb and changes everything and everyone's like this is the definition of cool we have to tune in to follow the trends. You know, the show just becomes like fucking American Bandstand or whatever. Right. For like trend spotting.

And then in his movies, it always is like he's 10 years ahead of getting the credit for doing the thing. Oh, yeah. I mean, in fact, I remember when Miami Vice first aired, it was not like that well liked the show. I remember the reviews were pretty negative. Critics were, I think, kind of like this is all style. They were like it's MTV Cops. That was the pitch. That was the pitch, MTV Cops.

But then also, I don't remember the ratings being that good. In fact, it was kind of borderline for a while. And I remember after the first season. It caught on in some way. Either the first season or the second season, it actually caught on. And they renewed it, and suddenly it was a hit again. Of course, I think Man actually left after the second season. I actually caught on and they renewed it and suddenly it was a hit again. Of course, I think Man actually left after the second season. I think you're right.

I mean, Miami Vice is one of those things where you figure it dominated the 80s, but it was actually, it was only five seasons. It kind of wore out its welcome really quickly. The Emmys turned on it right away. You know what I mean? Like, all of its... But it was sort of like, I mean, there are

so many, not on like the, like the OC, where it's like the OC lands and it was never the number one show on television and it was never an awards play.

The OC is great. Right? That was such a flash in the pan but has lingered quite incredibly. It was fine. It was dead by year five.

No, it only had four years. Four. Four seasons. And the fourth season felt like it was on life support already. The fourth season was basically announced as the final season of the OC. Right.

Like, yeah. Right. And people like me who were kind of too old for it when it aired, we were like, what the fuck is this? Like, why would anybody watch this shit? This is garbage. Right. This is it.

Culture circling the drain. That's it. Yeah. Now the OC is like a tourist mask. Exactly. Exactly. But it did like, it set the trends. Like it redefined fashion. is like a tourist mask exactly exactly but it did like it set the trends like it redefined fashion it redefined music and all these things uh it's it's

it's a pretty fascinating sort of like those shows that are so tied into the moment yes it's it's weirdly i think easier to make a show that is so tied into the moment that works in that moment than it is with a film. Yeah. You know? These sort of like flash in the pan, like you caught wind of a cultural sort of movement. Right.

Sort of shows. I was just, I mean, just like, you know, we talk about it a lot, but I'm so fascinated by just like how fucking long careers are. How most people just have so many different acts to their career. Do you remember when like, oh, Olivia Wilde is playing the bisexual bartender

in four episodes of The O.C.? Yeah, more like eight. But when they announced, like, oh, she's got a run, it was like, here's the next big star. Yeah. Like, to have a guest arc... What's the big deal?

They would introduce guest stars in The O.C. with, like, Vogue photo shoots. Right, and they were like, this is going to be your next leading lady. Yeah. And then it was like, oh, I guess that didn't happen. And then she comes back on House. Well, Olivia Wilde's one of

the bigger breakouts of the OC. Right. I know. The OC is littered with people who, like, never got to escape the gravity of the OC. But I'm saying, like, she didn't have the OC part that everyone thought she was going to have and then had the career of the other OC people. Like, Chris Pratt was in the OC. Right. There's a lot of guest stars of the OC. Yeah. OC.

Miami Vice is similar. It is. I mean, Jimmy Smith. Well, I mean, the guest stars were insane.

Yeah. But some of them were also, you know, big at the time too. Yeah. And the musical acts. This weekend,

I watched an episode where Frank Zappa played an elusive drug lord. Oh, I watched that app. Is it on Hulu or one of these things?

I have them on DVD. You know, I'm a physical media guy. Me too. I know they remastered them all on HD. Remind me I have a present for you. What? Yeah, yeah. I have a present I was supposed to give you like 10 months ago.

Oh, okay, great. Yeah. I don't have it on me. Just remind me at some point. I'm sure. Should we talk about the plot of Black Hat? I feel like we kind of covered it. It's hard to talk about.

Does he wear a black hat in it? In the finale, it would have been nice if Hemsworth had a white hat and the bad guy had a black hat. That would have been cool. That would have been a clean sort of thing for me. He goes to Lids and just gets a blank. This has such a classic man ending, too. It is crazy that every man movie, except for Public Enemy,

is basically the same ending where it's like he's alive and he won but now what does he do? Now you're sort of like he just walks. Exactly. You gotta just walk the earth with the world against you. Guy walking into a guy walking through a door.

That's the end of every other Michael Mann kind of like not looking at the camera. Yeah. I mean at the camera. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the day we're recording this, the Ford Ferrari trailer just came out yesterday. So people will be able to carbon date this episode recording. And that was what he had.

His sort of biggest intended follow-up to Black Hat was announced. I think he was going to the con film market with Christian Bale attached and they were going to try to get financing to make a big Ferrari biopic with Christian Bale. I feel like Mangold doing it has

completely killed that possibility. Especially since Christian Bale is in this other movie. It is so weird that Christian Bale is in this other movie right yeah no that is so weird that christian bale is in a movie with the word ferrari in the title right well as i understand it christian bale because he would have been playing enzo ferrari right and had to was going to have to gain weight or something like that yeah christian bale was like let me at this like he had the like sandwich at the ready right like he's like a giant bowl of pasta waiting for the contract to be signed.

Mix some Pop-Tarts into that. I can't wait to eat it. Do you remember that Simpsons Trey House of Horror with the ironic punishment department where Homer has to go to hell where they just feed him donuts all the time? And he's like chained into a chair

and they're just loading the donuts into his mouth. I think that's like, Christian Bale has a room in his house that's just fats that get funneled in. Yeah. Um, but do you, right.

So what, what do you think happened with him moving over? I mean, that was what like definitively nail on the coffin killed the man movie. It felt like, well, I think there was at some point bail dropped out and it was going to be Hugh Jackman.

If I remember correctly. Yeah. Um, who I'd love to see work with Michael Mann. I feel like Mann could do a lot with Jackman. Yeah, I think that could work out too. I mean, you know, who knows? The Ferrari movie was,

like the Ferrari script was a script that he wrote around the same time that he wrote Heat, if I remember correctly. So it's basically like 30 years old. Yeah, and it was also, I think similar to Heat, it was one of those scripts where he felt like he never basically like 30 years old. Yeah. And it was also, I think, similar to Heat. It was one of those scripts

where he felt like he'd never quite licked the ending. Sure. And then, like, finally felt like he'd licked the ending.

Right. But of course, you know, the times have changed and, you know, it's not easy to get a movie like that made now.

Right. I assume that's not going to happen, but who knows? I mean, he's also, if you remember, I mean, Michael Mann produced

The Aviator. He had his Howard Hughes movie. They were competing Howard Hughes movies, which wound up not happening. He was supposed to direct that, I believe. Did he drop out to do Collateral? I think he dropped out to do Miami Vice.

The thing he dropped out of for Miami Vice was Tonight He Comes, which later became hancock right because he also has a producing credit on he does he does and that was like a best picture nomination right right um but that was like one of the best unmade scripts in hollywood and was very much like a character piece and not a black comedy in the same way and not a movie with action set pieces look i'll watch his Hancock. I mean, I enjoyed the first half of Hancock.

Right, well, because Peter Berg is a roided up, slightly less introspective man. He's definitely indebted to Michael Mann. Mann, I think, has produced three of his movies. They're buds. And he's in Collateral. And Michael Mann was

in the movie Battleship. I'm not going to make a joke about the movie Battleship, and I couldn't remember a fucking thing about it. He was one of the old sailors. Right. He'd be good at that, probably. Barking orders. He played a red peg. That's the joke.

He could play. Yeah, right. Come on, David. He played a red peg. He played a red peg. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he could play any role written for Gene Hackman. Right?

Give me that. Just put Michael Mann in a movie. I'd love to see him. Give him that Werner Herzog. Like, sure. I'll play some villains. I don't know.

Yeah. Has he actually done any movie? Michael Mann? Yeah. I don't think so. Has he? I feel like maybe there's like a, I feel like there,

what are some other like lost Michael Mann projects? I've been trying to Google this while we're talking. Gates of Fire. Gates of Fire is the one that's like the, that one I, what is that? That was the competing version of 300. No, it wasn't 300, but that was the other.

The ancient. Yeah, the Battle of Thermopylae kind of thing. And I've read that script. It's kind of a great script. Agincourt is the other one that I know he still wants to do. About the Battle of Agincourt? I'm just going to sidebar here for one sec. Yeah.

You looked up his acting credits. Did you look them up? Yeah. Okay. So executive in Hancock, there's a scene with the boardroom and he's one of the guys, whatever. Right. Right. Right.

And then the other thing we've talked about this. Cause I scroll. We've scrubbed the image. We don't know. They say he's in the Tai Chi class and intern. There are two Tai Chi classes at the beginning and the end of the movie. Where De Niro is kind of like, you know, like this. And there's like a bunch of other, you know, senior citizens.

There's the bookends of the film, looking for Michael Mann anywhere. I certainly believe he could be in there. Yeah. I have seen other people. I could not recognize him. Nancy Meyers is kind of the female Michael Mann. And Michael Mann is kind of the male Nancy Meyers. Incredibly meticulous, over-budget filmmakers.

But also, like, just, you know, lifestyle porn. Right. 100%. What makes a woman, what makes a man. Yeah, 100%. And also, right, just you imagine them sending six months dressing an apartment set that is going to be featured for two scenes or whatever.

Right, so I totally believe they're good friends, and she was like, come on by. You know, but we cannot find him visually in that movie. No. Nancy and or Michael, speak to this please. That is interesting though that his like big unmade movies are sort of

greater epics than he has ever been able to pull off in terms of like big historical action. Yeah, and I believe the Agincourt story was going to be kind of following a character sort of through that world.

Sure. Sounds cool. I mean, yeah, you know, I'd love to see him do it. I haven't read that script or anything like that,

but I know the Gates of Fire script, and that was a film that was kind of, I mean, that was, that went through multiple directors

and producers and stuff like that, so, and stars, and I think Clooney was involved at some point. I'd love to and stuff like that. So, and stars. And I think Clooney was involved at some point. Um, but, uh,

but that was, you know, that was a, that was a great script. I, that would have been awesome to see man tackle it. I mean, you know,

the, the thing is last of the Mohicans is such a great movie. Yes, it is that you, you look at that and you're like, it would have been interesting to, to see him do more kind of like heavy period stuff like that as opposed to just like kind of,

you know, within the realm of sort of crime. I was just Googling. He also has been over the last six or seven years talking of Big Tuna a lot, which is supposed to be another like Chicago 40s mob movie. He has a movie called Big Tuna? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am all in. telling me he has a movie called big tuna oh yeah yeah i am all in uh and now he has this imprint this publishing big crime novel so now it's like well

i'm gonna make big tuna as a book right i'm like executive producing this book so that then hopefully the book will inspire people to give me money to make the movie that's funny yeah and it's a big tuna was a capone associate that's who that is and i think i'm also uh you know like the first book in this in his imprint came out called hunting larue and it's actually a non-fiction book uh i don't like i think the imprint is meant mainly for fiction but he decided to go with this um this non-fiction one uh and it's interesting because the guy that it's about, it's this guy, Paul LaRue, who was this like crime lord

who started off as a, he was from Rhodesia and he started off in cybersecurity and he started, and then started selling like pharmaceuticals online. You know, so like if you needed prescription meds, but you didn't have a prescription you could get them from australia or wherever sure he started selling that and then he eventually got into like

arms dealing and all sorts of crazy shit and he's basically the guy in black hat interesting but like man did not know about this guy when he was when he when he was writing black hat or like he found out about him later well but even But even the nationality weirdly matches up because LaRue's from Rhodesia and then the guy in Black Hat has this Dutch accent. It's like these weird... And he kind of looks like him because he's kind of this dumpy guy. It's very

strange how they match up. But it's totally coincidental. And I'm looking this up. The next book scheduled to be published by his imprint is Clifford the Big Red dog and the easter parade but that seems like a weird i'll pinch you i'll pinch you that's clifford talking i don't burn people i'm a big red dog you fucking egg public enemies the insult of you dumb egg is how great would it be if they were like uh you know this happening more and more these days walt becker has been fired mid-production from the live action clifford the big red dog

movie and replaced with michael man i mean it's like a page one rewrite i feel like man is where now we've been to see a dog this fucking big you know it's like we've talked about this what's your year to the project just never heard of a bigger dog like man Fincher Scorsese these guys where studios are now like it's not even worth

the prestige to us anymore right yeah it's gonna be too expensive we know what you're like you're old you're you know not gonna

take any notes we have no control and it's gonna cost too much money and like even though like it'll get Oscar buzz and good reviews

above all else like how fucking long is this going to take us? Like we just don't want to work with you anymore. Like that's my great, greatest fear about the movie industry is that sort of mindset. And it looked for a while like the Netflix's and Amazon's of the world. They're like, sure,

here we are to pick up the check. Right. Right. But even there, I think kind of moving away from that. I mean, Netflix obviously has the Scorsese thing, but do you really think that they're going to be making more movies like that? Can I give you my theory on that? I mean, Netflix obviously has the Scorsese thing, but do you really think that they're going to be making more movies like that?

Can I give you my theory on that? It's not impossible that they have the budget for one of those a year. Can I give you my theory? Yeah, you can. So you know how there's this trend with television where when Fox started and when UPN started and even when WB started, they were like, we are targeting African Americans.

We are going to cater to an underserved market in television. And the second they had a breakout hit with white people on it, they were like, like now we get to do the thing we wanted to do, white people TV shows, you know? They always use them as a way to get their footing.

I think weirdly in this streaming era, these companies have done the same thing with prestige projects. Like Amazon came in and like got ted hope and we're like let's get all the 90s auteur yeah amazon was like with stillman spike lee like right like jim jarmusch right let's call them all up let's get these what's the script in your closet what's the thing in your drawer that you haven't gotten to make you know it's like the expendables of all tours 100 of 90s like early in. Right. And I think what they were

trying to do was not to rope the audience in, but to destigmatize the sort of lower rent idea of it being a streaming thing. So it's like, if you get Alfonso Cuaron to trust you

with his like very slow, meticulous housekeeper drama, and you push that movie properly, then filmmakers feel more comfortable going to Netflix with their movies, knowing they'll be handled correctly. What Netflix is actually in it for is less trying to find the next Roma and more trying to find the next Bright. Right, right, right.

And the big thing is, how do you make it not look low rent to Will Smith to do an action movie for you? You know? Yes, I, right. And the big thing is, how do you make it not look low rent to Will Smith to do an action movie for you? Right. You know? Yes, I do know. And some of that, I think, also does expand, you know, their subscriber footprint, too. Of course.

Right, like doing something like Godless. Of course. You know, which is like, they didn't have a Western, and there are probably a lot of, you know, guys out there who want to watch Westerns who maybe got a Netflixflix subscription because of it but i am also sure you know in their endless uh uh buckets and buckets of uh data and metrics that

they will never share with the public right that they saw like oh the people who are watching stuff on netflix streaming are nerds yeah let's make things for nerds for like underserved like niche genres no for sure. Because these are the people who are like, you watch it on the Netflix? On your computer? We'll get them later. We'll get to the ranch eventually.

But for the time being, what do you put on here that people will connect to? And I think we're just going to see more and more. If they wanted to be prestige channels, they would have cultivated the sort of like hbo standard of quality thing of just like we make sure we so rarely dip below this and all these stream platforms are like prestige is a way to get your foot in the door it really helps to win some ammies yes in order to get more people always gonna love awards yes

but they're always gonna prioritize but now it's like Amazon has Lord of the Rings. Netflix has The Witcher. Just announced a Magic the Gathering series. Which, by the way, fully in support of. Can't wait to see their take on. Jose Molina, one of the showrunners on it.

Wonderful man. Oh, cool. Yeah. I don't know. A show that was canceled by Amazon because it's too niche. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I just, I think, I think, yes. It's like, there might have been a window where Michael Mann could have gotten Amazon or Netflix to bankroll his crazy movie.

Yeah. And I think he missed that window. I think they're already now, like, I think the Irishman might be the last of a certain type of prestige

film bankrolled by the streaming services before the pendulum swings again. Right. We'll see. At that level, I don't know if it's

going to happen again. I disagree with David is, unlike the other guys you're roping him in with, I think Scorsese will go back to being able to make studio film. I think a lot of that's through the DiCaprio connection. I think him in with, I think Scorsese will go back to being able to make studio film.

I think a lot of that's through the DiCaprio connection. I think, of course. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just saying it's gone from studios jockeying to make a Michael Mann movie or whatever to that being a high-risk, okay, that kind of a project. And even when everything became more like bean counter number cruncher

I'm just trying to reckon with the fact that man hasn't made another movie of course this is all I'm talking about I mean honestly it's not that dissimilar from you know

like when you're a writer or like you're a freelance writer and you're working with one editor and then that editor leaves and a new one comes in and you don't know where you stand with them

I mean with Michael Mann and some of these guys they were often protected by studio heads. Yeah, of course. No, no, you're totally right. Studio heads who are like, we're vouching for them.

This is part of the business. This is one of our guys. Right. He comes to us with a project. We're going to take a serious look at it. Right. Warner Brothers used to be famous for that, where it was like, we want to be the Yankees. We want to have the strongest in-house roster.

Yeah. And now pretty much they've said, like like we're not giving director's cut to anyone other than our three guys. Clint Eastwood, Christopher Nolan, what's the other one? Todd Phillips. Those are the three guys

they referred to. It's just like we want to keep them in-house. Todd Phillips is making a fucking superhero movie. Of course. I mean not to say it's not like that means

that the culture is ending or anything. Right. That is sort of the point. You know? Maybe Michael Mann should make Booster Gold. I don't know.

Yeah. There are. Maybe he should make Hanoster Gold. I don't know. Yeah. There are. Maybe he should make Hancock. Reboot Hancock. Bring back Hancock. Yeah. I mean, honestly,

they're going to run out of superheroes soon. They're going to have to bring back Hancock. Hancock will join the MCU. I will say, I have read Tonight He Comes. It is so radically different

from what they end up making. They could just make it. It's one of those things where you're like, so the guy got paid money for this script that in no way resembles in any...

This is a guy who did Heat as a TV miniseries and then did it like a verbatim as a movie. And somehow one was bad and the other was good.

I know, that's the thing about L.A. Takedown where it's so weird. It's the same lines. Yeah. And it's so boring. I've often said if I ever taught

a filmmaking class or even like an acting class, it's just like I've often said if I ever taught a filmmaking class or even an acting class show the diner scene from LA Takedown and show the diner scene from Heat I mean it's like verbatim it's like a high school production of a Shakespeare play versus the Royal Shakespeare Company but it's like the same guy

yeah very strange it is the most incredible argument for movie stardom. Yes. It really is. Yeah. It's incredible. So, Viola Davis in Black Hat. Terrific.

Great performance. I love that scene. I created my head where she has it. But it's also like, I think, that's another nice thing about the director's cut is that you get more of her. Yes. And actually it takes a little while for Hemsworth to come in.

Yeah. So it actually does feel more like an ensemble piece, which I think. Especially like a two-hander. Yeah. Especially now that you're watching it, you're like, this should be Chris Hemsworth and Viola Davis above the title together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because she becomes a movie star like right around now. Yeah.

Right. And it's really like it just works so much better as a film that's not about the hero hacker who must like do all this stuff. Yeah, of course.

He's kind of part of a team. This is also and we need to talk about it because it's been a running theme throughout our main series. This is the best female character in any of his movies. Close to it.

And it's I argue it is because it's the only not that I'm saying this is the only test you should apply to female characters but I think it is helpful to do that test of just like, is this character in any way defined by them being female? Because so often female characters in movies are, their entire function is connected to the fact that they are female, what their relationship is to someone else, you know? And this is just like a character that could have been played by a male actor. Sure, but I mean,

but one could also argue that there's nothing, you know, that having a character who is defined by the fact that they're female isn't necessarily, you know, like you don't necessarily write strong women characters just by writing characters who could also be men. I agree. No, that's what I'm saying. It's who could also be men. I agree. No, that's what I'm saying.

It's not a unilateral tactic. I think Gong Li's character in Miami Vice is kind of She's the other one. That's a good one. I mean, she's a really moving character. That's one of my favorite.

That's a good argument. More backstory, more backstory, by the way, than anyone else in that movie. Yes. We haven't recorded that episode yet. That's the only reason I feel like she's not pinging for you.

That's the only episode we haven't recorded. That is probably the fact. I'm trying to like she's not pinging for you. That's the only episode we haven't recorded. That is probably the fact. I mean, certainly, also, Viola is just, as she is in almost any movie, such a talent that you can give her a very thinly written role. Not that this is per se, but like, you know, and she can bring a ton to it. We've talked about this before, I think, but that she says in interviews that her acting model is a cat.

She likes watching cats a lot. And she's like, cat behavior is so fascinating. If you watch a cat and you can't figure out what they're thinking, and you can't figure out when they're going to pounce, and when they're going to recoil and all of that. Right. That she's like, no human being will ever be more interesting to watch than any random cat. But my goal is to try to get as close as I can.

Yeah. And so many of the scenes in this were like she's in an office with John Ortiz and it's her, just her glances and her blinks

and you're just going like, what the fuck is this woman thinking? I did think like this is like watching a cat. Like this is like, is she about to blow up or is she going to

quietly walk out of the room? Yeah. And her death scene is one of the, is probably the best like moment in this movie it's very that whole sequence and it falls at a perfect point in the movie and uh it does feel like kind of like what's the you know like all like a good all is lost moment yeah but also like just man's intent of trying to like get in his character's heads yeah and you see that little

like that tower that just kind of fades out in the fog. And it's like, you're like, this is the last thing this woman's ever going to see. You know, it's really, really just like sends shivers up your spine. That's profound. Yeah. Oh. I mean, this movie, the deaths are all so sort of abrupt like that. Like, even the final triumphant screwdriver

stabbings. They're meaningless in that sort of way that he's obsessed with where it's like death is such a brutal act that affects the people around them so much but the actual, the act, the physical act of violence upon you that kills you is so sort of abrupt and weird. And then the black

head guy, Sadak, whatever his name is, he has that line where he's like, yeah, he's gone now, so I'm not gonna... Like, why be sympathetic? Like, why have emotions about it? He's not here anymore. Yeah.

The player has exited the game. Right. Right. Black hat Hathor. Black hat. It is such a good tongue... Black hat hacker. Black hat hacker.

No, but it's a black hat hacker named Hathaway. That's the tongue twister. He's not a black hat. He's a white hat. Yeah. They call him a black hat at the beginning. He kind of becomes one tongue twister. He's not a black hat. He's a white hat. Yeah. They call him a black hat at the beginning.

He kind of becomes one. The thing he was arrested for I think was a little black hat. But they don't I think it was the trailer, right? Where they say the actual words black hat hacker

named Hathaway. Yeah, which they don't in the movie. They don't in the movie. I think that was a moment where people were laughing at the trailer. Yeah.

When they say black hat hacker. Well, fuck that. Black hat hacker. So we also talked about Lee Hong Wong and Tong Wei from Lust Caution. Yes. Which we've covered on this podcast.

They were lovers there. Yes. They are brother and sister here. Tong Wei's pretty great. I agree. Yeah. I think she falls a little bit prey to just,

I sense in her that thing that happens where it's just like her facility with English. She speaks well in this movie. You can kind of tell that she's uncomfortable. Sure. You know? Yeah. I think the scenes where she is speaking in her native language, she is so much more sort of arresting.

She's just in her sort of physical presence. Right. And in less caution. just in her sort of physical presence and in less caution. Some of the English language scenes in this movie, I just see the trepidation of someone who's like, I hope I'm getting this right, you know? Yeah.

But she is very good in it. And he's very good too. We already shouted out whole McElhaney. Yeah. Can't wait for season two of Mindhunter. Where is that? Bring me that. That seems to be... On route, yes.

No, no. From what I hear, it's like a Fincher thing. I mean, the studio stopped working with Fincher as well, and he moved over to TV. He set up three HBO projects. They shut all of them down. Two of them were already filming because he was too difficult, and apparently Mindhunter has just been very, very slow

coming back together. But I also like, you you know I have actor friends who have worked on Mindhunter who are like it's the fucking best he's there the whole time he's there the whole time and you get to spend like four days working on two lines you know and then the opposite

of that is Soderbergh where they're like it's great you do 27 pages in two hours I feel like actors want one or the other. Yeah. The middle is what they don't want. When I talked to Soderbergh about High Flying Bird, he couldn't stop emphasizing how fast the iPhone makes everything.

He just loves it. He's like, you set up so quickly. It's great. And then you just walk over there and you set up again. I'm in the van going back from set and I'm editing the footage. By that night, I've already put it into the timeline. No, I have heard from people who are supposed to be in the next season of Mindhunter that were like, I've been on hold for six months.

Presumably, I'm going to film it sometime. I don't know when we're starting. I'm not allowed to work. I'm supposed to be in it. Weird industry. Weird industry. Weird industry. So you were at the BAM screening of the director's cut

when was that first time he showed it yes is that like a couple years later like is that 2017 it's 2016 February 2016 so it's like a year later

yeah you're right it's one year later and he said at the time that he wasn't done of course like he hinted that he was still going to be editing but at the same time

like he like the film is was I think kind of out of his hands even though he was still going to be editing. But at the same time, like, he, like, the film is, was, I think, kind of out of his hands. Even though he had

Final Cut and everything. But he doesn't own the movie. And I think that was actually kind of a big deal. Like, it's Legendary's movie. Because I remember asking him something like,

I said, oh, you know, will the director's cut be, you know, released or whatever. And he said, it's really Legendary's call. And I think I even asked him, you know, oh, will the director's cut be released or whatever? And he said, it's really Legendary's call. And I think I even asked him backstage about,

is there ever going to be a soundtrack album release for Black Hat? And he was like, it's really not up to me at all. It's very weird how persistent the director's cut has been in terms of popping up every six to eight months in different places without ever being consistently available anywhere. That's only available watching on FX with commercial breaks now.

Or that it was on TNT. You can't rent it anywhere. They've never released it digitally. I had assumed that why we had not gotten a physical release is because he was still tinkering. But maybe it's also just an unprofitable proposition. You're just doing the digital age.

Isn't it just like pushing a button? I agree. I don't fucking know. I mean, this is, well, that's what they've done. I know. You know, FX has been, you know. But, I mean, this is a movie whose star is Australian. Yes.

But its Australian release was scrapped after its opening weekend because it was so, it just did so poorly. Its Chinese release was scrapped after it's opening weekend because it was so it just did so poorly it's Chinese release was scrapped and like half the movie you look at it and it's like oh this was designed to be released in China it's insane that this movie never came out in China it came out in Hong Kong but not in China

it's not like it made any money they just completely abandoned this it did come out in the United Kingdom. You know, it had some international release, but yeah, it didn't come out in China. I mean, we've been grabbing on this, the whole miniseries.

It's crazy that this is his lowest grossing film, unadjusted, including Thief and the Keep. Really? Including like Manhunter? Yeah, including all of them. Like adjusted for inflation, it is roundly beaten. Yeah, yeah.

But even unadjusted, the Keep does more theatrically than this does. No, the Keep is the one that does. Oh, really? The Keep is 4.2 unadjusted. Okay. But it beats it adjusted.

Right. Thief is like eight. Thief made 11. Wow. Wow. Which adjusted is 37. Right. Thief played. And this opens to number 11 and makes seven in 11. Wow. Which adjusted to 37. Right. Thief played.

And this opens to number 11 and makes seven in total. Eight. Eight. Okay. Gotta give him some credit. Worldwide or domestic? Domestically, eight. Worldwide, 19.

Okay. Not good. Good. It costs 70. Yeah. I thought it cost a little more. I feel like that's Legendary's reported number

it's not like it looks like an incredibly expensive movie but it was filmed in all sorts of places it has some of those locations like that shot in Malaysia the tin mines what's that place tell me more Legendary says they lost 90 million dollars

on it the soundtrack thing is also interesting because it's two credit people It's Harry Gregson Williams and Atticus Ross Right, who worked with Trent Reznor on his scores And Harry Gregson Williams was upset Both of them have said that they don't

recognize any of their compositions in the movie Half the score is the score from Elysium Which is amazing Yes, I know Just imagine that was like He used that as a temp track. He uses Hans Zimmer's Thin Red Line score and stuff. Like, I think he uses things as temp tracks and then gets so committed to them that he's just like, just license it.

Yeah, right. But they were like, we don't hear any of our score in this movie. We don't stand by this. It's a weird score. And Michael Mann's response was like, if you want people to hear your music, be a fucking recording artist. Like he had some public statement that was like, if you're a composer, you hand me the thing and I'll do whatever the fuck I want with it. You goddamn egg.

That is my impression of Michael Mann. You dumb egg. You dumb egg. Get out of my face, Hemsworth. So let's look at this box office weekend. We all know the movie The Crush. So this is the Martin Luther King weekend. American Sniper. This is the weekend

American Sniper goes wide? It's the weekend American Sniper, its gross increases by 18,000%. Yeah, going wide, it makes $107 million. Crazy. In its fourth week of release. An R-rated drama opening in January, making $100 million opening weekend.

Yeah, it goes, you know, opening weekend. Right, but wide release, yes. It goes from four screens to 3,500. Right. American Sniper. You cannot overstate how effective that trailer is. That is one of the great trailers. It's a very good trailer.

Like, Black Hat should probably not be opening on Martin Luther King weekend anyway but no one knew American Sniper was going to obviously eat it's lunch with that but the other thing that doesn't make any sense is

I'm saying also I would not say that American Sniper should be opening on Martin Luther King again either seemed weird but uh like again quote unquote opening yeah it did and then right that's now become the time you open uh uh military uh movies right like yeah right and uh what's one call it lone survivor give me yes which made most survivors before though right was before i Yeah, that's 13 maybe but yeah, but doesn't Patriot's Day

come out that time? Yeah, yeah, I think so. You know, the classic like expanded at the beginning of January. Yeah. Zero Dark Thirty.

Zero Dark Thirty expanded in January, yeah. And did well, did very well. Yes, those movies all did well. Black Hat, seeing here,

opened at number 11 for $4 million. That's an issue. It's so embarrassing to open outside the top 10. Especially in a dead time of year.

Even if you have a big movie coming out. Below the fifth weekend of Night at the Museum Secret of the Tomb. You know, that's where it's opening. Below that.

Below the fourth week of Unbroken. These movies don't exist. I was the only person at my screening. So you went to see it? Yeah. Wow. I went to see it too.

There was also some storm. I think we talked about that. Griffin, there was like a... Oh, there was a big snowstorm. Because I went to see the last screening of Black Hat with the fear that I might be snowed in. I had this weird experience at Sundance because Sundance was a little while after, right after this.

Right. And I was supposed to go to a screening of, oh God, what was the Wolfpack? Oh, sure, sure, sure. And I went to the, I like got on the wrong bus or something like that. It happened. And I'd been thinking that day, I was like, you know, I should maybe go see Black Hat because it's like the last day that it's going to be in theaters.

It was clearly going to be, it was a Thursday night and I got on the wrong, like Sundance, I actually did not get on a Sundance show. I actually got on a bus. You just got on a municipal bus, right. And at the point when I realized

that I was like going the wrong way and I was totally out of the way, I was like, oh, I got to get off this bus. I got to get off the bus. And I am standing in front of a mall with a theater showing Black Hat. Oh, yeah. And it's like, but I wound up going to,

you know, like the publicist came and got me and I had to go see the Wolfpack. But I was like, this is a sign from God. Like I was here for the final show of Black Hat and I could have gone to see it, but I didn't. Okay, this answer is not as good as I thought it was going to be, but I want to ask you two guys. Anyway,

how many Academy Award winners appear in Night at the Museum 3, Secret of the Tomb? Winners. I thought it was five. Is Robin Williams in it? Correct. So that's one. Amy Adams is in it, right? She's in two.

She's not one. She's in two. She's in two, only a nominee. Give me some clues here. I forgot that Mickey Rooney had never won, but he's in it. He's only been nominated. Well, he has an honorary Oscar. Does that count?

Right. Hugh Jackman, who's been nominated, didn't win. Sure. Ben Stiller. If you want to count Mickey Rooney it's four. There are two other people

who have won best lead actor who are in Night Museum 3 Secret of the Tomb. Give me a clue. Oh well Rami Malek. Correct.

Because he plays like a pharaoh or something right? I believe he plays King Tut. Sure. Is that possible? Yeah. He's kind that possible? Yeah.

He's kind of the main character. Or Ramses or something like that. Maybe he's Ramsey. He plays Achman Ra. Ben is fully checked out at this point. And then I believe his father in the film. His father? Yeah, correct.

He's credited as Ach's father, Ben Kingsley. Ben Kingsley. I literally, you could have let me guess that. I didn't even know he was in it. But I was like, who would you lazily cast? What Oscar winner will you lazily cast on the third night of the museum to play an Egyptian

god or whatever? Dan Stevens? And he would say yes. Rebel Wilson? Ricky Gervais? Dick Van Dyke? Dick Van Dyke? No, and it's actually a big shame. It's actually a big shame alright it's actually it's actually

a big shame so number two at the box office is a new film what's the disparity in numbers between

American Sniper and number two this movie opens to 25 wow yeah it's a good counter program

there are two huge openings this week. Wow. Black Hat is the non-huge opening. Yeah. Yeah. Who knew this would end up being such a blockbuster weekend?

Okay. It opens to 25. What's its final gross? Good question. And this is an expansion. This is a proper January release? Yes. Okay.

Final gross 76. Worldwide 268. Spawned a sequel that everybody loves. You being sarcastic? Yes. Okay. Final Girl 76, Worldwide 268. Mmm. Spawned a sequel that everybody loves. You being sarcastic? No. The sequel is loved? Yes. More than the first? Yes, but I think you and I think opposite. Oh, oh, we're

talking about our main man, Pattinson. Pattinson. Which we get dragged a lot, and I think Pattinson 1 is better by a hair. By a single bear's hair. I agree. I think they're essentially equivalent. I mean, I tweet this thing that I think Parabellum is the best of the three John Wick movies. But I also think those movies are essentially equal.

I agree. I think they just work as a whole. And I want to spend as much time in the John Wick universe and as much time in the Pantone universe as I can. Until, of course, Pantone vs. Wick, Dawn of Justice. Bill, do you care about the Paddington movies? I like them. I like them. I had to review both of them and gave them good reviews.

I love—I thought Hugh Grant really kind of deserved an Oscar. Knuckles McGinty? Yeah. Knuckles McGinty, Brandon Gleeson, Knuckles McGinty. Yeah, no, actually, and as a parent, it's actually really nice when movies like that come around. Super fucking well made. Yeah, and you can actually like take your child to them

multiple times without feeling incredibly guilty. I'll say also, I would never wish this fate upon him. Yeah. But don't you every time there's a new fucking Disney quote unquote live action adaptation go like, I wish they'd just let Paul King do this. Right. Like, he's the only guy who fucking is able to capture this shit.

Yeah. Like, Mary Poppins Returns should have been directed by Paul King. I love Favreau's Jungle Book. I like Favreau's Jungle Book. I genuinely love that movie. I like it. So I'm also, you know. So you're kind of in on Lion King.

I am. The thing is, I'm not a big fan of Lion King. Me neither. None of us are. Yeah. So I mean. I in on Lion King. The thing is, I'm not a big fan of Lion King. Me neither. None of us are. So I mean, I trust Favreau to do a decent job with it, but who the hell knows. So I had predicted it was going to be the highest grossing film in history. I predicted this about two years ago. I was doubling down and down and down and down until the recent spat of marketing

that reminded everyone, most of all me, that most of these animals are gross looking and lack personality in real life. Yeah, then I'm just curious.

Now I'm worried the movie won't connect because I feel like the animals in Jungle Book were a lot more stylized. I think it's still going to connect. I think it'll be maybe

the sixth highest grossing movie in history. I don't think it's going to end up being number one. I don't think it's going to be number one. I don't either. I think I was very wrong. I think it will be interesting after this year when, you know, Disney has Avengers,

has Endgame, has Episode IX, and this, which will probably be one of the biggest live action. It'll be one of the 10 highest grossing films. After this year, like, they'll never have another year. No. Like this one. No. Like this will kind of be. And Frozen 2.

Yeah. And Frozen 2. They're going to have the two biggest animated movies of all time. The biggest superhero movie of all time. And after this, you are just going to see articles about Disney struggling because they are never going to be able to match what they did this year. Someone tweeted today, but just like,

you know, good for them. They're going to have an to match what someone tweeted today but just like you know good for them they're gonna have an incredible year well deserved i do not pity the person who has to sell their profits next year and if you think about it and it's actually and it's kind of across the board too with the studios like this is we're sort of coming to the end of the franchises that define the era of the temple big argument is that everything's been shaped around these franchises and most of those franchises are hitting their cycle ends and next year looks really weird.

Oh yeah, and at the same time, for the other studios, a lot of the other kind of big franchises have died. Yeah. Right? I mean, Transformers isn't making the kind of money it used to. Yeah, and they need to-

Pirates of the Caribbean is over. And in both those cases, it's very clear that the lesson is we need to give it some time. They can't force it again. Yeah. Here's Disney's 2020. Onward.

Which, what do you think of that trailer? I agree. Yeah. Although, if it wants to be, like, Dungeons & Dragons-y, I'm all in. But it kind of looks like, you know. I was very excited. I was very excited by the premise. Sure.

I will admit, I auditioned for that movie. I believe I did not get the part. You don't think so? I think I did not receive the lead role in Onward. I've heard otherwise. There are rumors. It remains to be seen. There are persistent rumors.

The last I checked, I am not top billed on the poster for Onward. So that's my argument against me being in it. Right. Who knows? All right. I would love to be as surprised as everyone else yeah I think it looks okay I find the premise

very exciting I hope it's just a bad trailer which Pixar movies often are kind of do you know what the actual plot is go ahead go ahead

go ahead are you allowed to are you allowed to tell us maybe I'm not allowed okay so then yeah I won't say anything alright onward

Mulan yeah which I you know, I am excited by the fact that Nikki Hara is directing that. Sure. I like her a lot. I like Whale Ride. Did you see McFarlane USA?

No. I saw McFarlane. I liked McFarlane. McFarlane USA is actually, like, secretly kind of a great movie. See, I agree with this. And the fact that she did that within the Disney system makes me think, like, Mulan might be kind of cool. It's got a really cool cast.

I'm not opposed to Mulan. Like Mulan is the kind of thing where I'm like, have at it. I don't have enough affection for the original where I'm like, it's a sacred cow. And this is the other reason I'm kind of excited for Mulan because Mulan doesn't have that same legendary status where they have to hit the same beats.

Yeah, I think it does for a certain quadrant. I was was the mulan age there are people who obviously love mulan but i just think they're allowed a little more freedom and how they can make more historically accurate yeah also because its sources are so kind of eclectic and diverse and it's just like a bunch of different myths kind of i think mulan could be cool who knows maybe the trailer comes out mulan is chunky on Onward. Mulan. Marvel 1, which I think a lot of people assume is Black Widow. Yes. Artemis Fowl, which got bumped to Memorial Day from August.

The Kenneth Branagh. About a child thief. Yeah, which could, that's a franchise if it hits. Because there's like a lot of the books. There's a lot of books. Right. But who knows? Yeah, it feels a little past its, I mean, peak cultural relevancy.

But go on. But you never know. Untitled Pixar, whatever that is. Yeah, right. There's supposed to be two Pixar's next. Yeah. Jungle Cruise. Yeah. Now look, we both love John Colet-Sara.

This is my- No idea if it's a big box office player, but like- I'm hoping. Sign me up. Yeah. The one and only Ivan. I have no idea what that is. That's a weird- It's like, sign me up. Yeah. The one and only Ivan. I have no idea what that is. That's a weird,

it's like animals in a zoo. Mike White wrote it. It's about like polar bear or something. I don't know. It's based off a book. Sounds great. It sounds kind of rad. Another Marvel,

which I think people assume is Eternals. Correct. I believe that's a presumption. You know, a bit of a, both, both Marvels this year are kind of, you know,

like, let's see if this goes. Chloe Zhao making a movie that right, bit of a, both, both Marvels this year kind of, you know, like, let's see if this goes. Chloe Zhao making a movie that right, as of now, apparently stars Richard Madden, Kumail Nanjiani, and Angelina Jolie.

Sounds great. Sounds pretty fucking cool. Some kind of, whatever the Disney movie is, the animated Disney movie, that's like a Thanksgiving project. Oh, yeah,

because they canceled a bunch of them. I don't know what that's supposed to be. which like, okay. So like, that's like, like you're's, like, what, like you're saying. Like, a period of uncertainty is the beginning. 2019 was cast as this insane year where they add Fox, they have a Star Wars, a Frozen, a Toy Story, a Marvel, you know.

It actually makes me wonder, like, do they know something that we don't? Like, are the billionaires, likeaires getting ready to kind of pull up the walls and get on their boats while the rest of us fucking drown and burn and die? It honestly feels that way. They're like, okay, so we have to, let's just agree by 2019, we end the Infinity Saga. We end Star Wars. People need

some closure. Let them go out happy before we leave them stranded on their shitty dying planet. Like even 2021 has Avatar and Indiana Jones. Poor James Cameron is like, we're going to make them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As he's drowning.

Do you think that's part of those movies getting pushed back? Is that like James Cameron knows when the earth is going to expire better than anyone else? And he's like, okay, we got a couple couple more years so let me just push off the avatar announcement the avatar movie is gonna come out after humanity dies on earth yeah yeah right and he'll be like yeah no it's finished it's finished you can come look at it uh too bad roads don't exist it's in Canada my movie's in Canada uh anyway so yeah we I think we all agree that the future of the movie industry is very interesting and in flux. I just always get annoyed at anyone who

writes the article that's like, this is it, it's definitive, X. You know, like, because of, like, six months of box office gross, you know, like, you know. Here's the thing that I'm interested in right now, is just, like, what is, because I feel like for the last five or six years

minus a fucking funny guy like me throwing a Lion King argument into the mix there's been like a clear like this is going to be the highest grossing film of the year. This is coming out, this will be the highest grossing film of the year. You can call it a year out in advance.

I don't know if there is one next year. Like there are big movies but I don't know if there is one next year. There are big movies, but I don't know if there's a like, well obviously, everyone's gonna go see it. This is just gonna demolish. Joker. No, Joker comes out this year. It's gonna change the world.

Tenet. That's right. Peter Rabbit 2, Sonic the Hedgehog, Voyager, Dr. Dolittle, Godzilla vs. Kong. I'm looking at other studios things now. I'm telling you, it's insane. New Mutants, James Bond 25 comes out in April. Let's see if that sticks. Right, one assumes Bond will come out that year.

Trolls World Tour, Fast and Furious 9, Wonder Woman. That's 2020 now? Yes. Right, yeah. Minions The Rise of Gru. All right, maybe that's your number yes right yeah Minions the Rise of Gru alright maybe that's your number one yeah

wait is Michael Mann directing that yes yes Top Gun this guy Gru he's like what voice am I doing now

that's not Michael Mann you yellow fuck you dumb egg they do look kind of like dumb eggs Ghostbusters the Rise of boys again

i mean this these are weird like there's a lot of untitled blank event films uh morbius the jared leto morbius movie that everyone's been demanding venom 2 that should be 2020 uh let's see i don't know i don't see it here on the schedule i mean it might be untitled sony it says you know what here it says 2020 Untitled Sony Marvel sequel. So that's probably Venom 2. Yeah, what else? Unless it's Into the Spider-Verse or something like that. It could be one of those.

Sure, Spider-Verse 2 or Spider-Man Junior Year, you know, whatever. This is a weird list of, like, there's so many of these, like. When is Black Panther 2? Is that happening right now? 2021. There's, like, a Marvel, like, February 2021 that everyone assumes is Black Panther 2? 2021. There's like a Marvel February 2021 that everyone assumes is Black Panther. I assume Feige will soon do this thing where he's like, here it is, folks. Here are the logos of the movies that have not been written or cast yet.

Untitled Universal Event Film 4. That sounds really good. That might be a big one. Untitled WB event film too yeah what if i'm working for deadline and i'm like everyone knows that untitled universal event film 4 is the most the safest bet of the summer we all know this untitled amblin project like what is an event film there's events yes i do love when they just call yes event film where it's like what does that mean it means it's not a superhero movie or animated but like i don't know some shit will happen well like here

this is like a building or two untitled universal event comedy this isn't just some untitled universal comedy they're calling it that's where they're like look kevin hart is choice number one if he passes we're gonna call up Rebel Wilson. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Get off your phone. Okay. Sorry.

I feel like you're getting sucked into all the untitled events of the next 50 years. Go on. What about this one? I mean, untitled Affirm Films coach project. All right. That could literally be anything. I mean, isn't Affirm Films one of those inspirational movies? But they're now staking out untitled. But half the movies are about coaches. So that really could be anything. mean isn't Affirm one of those inspirational movies but they're now half the movies are about coaches

so that really could be anything there's some guy whose job is like every week there's an article in any local newspaper about a coach send it to me

and I'll see if it's inspirational enough Untitled Affirm Coach Event Film they got their Google alert for coach and like dead child.

And they have their Easter weekend release date. After a town tragedy. Right. They're just waiting for the right coach story. Yeah, and he's like, and I'll fucking call, who's an Oscar winner from the 90s who needs work, right? What if that slot ends up just being a movie adaptation of Craig T. Nelson's coach? Affirm was like, we couldn't find one. It's just here we took an episode.

That's when it'll start to happen. They'll be like, we couldn't find one. It's just here. We took an episode. That's what will start to happen. They'll be like, we think there's a lot of, you know, potential for Major Dad, the movie. Right? Like, it'll become that. Hey, it's a brand name. People know Major Dad. He's a major. They're going to do a Golden Girls cinematic universe where each of them have their own film.

Yeah, right, right. It's just young Blanche. Sophia Petrillo origins. Right. I just love saying colon origins. That's like my favorite stupid studio pitch ever. Sophia Petrillo origins Wolverine. Yeah, right.

Okay, there are no good jokes left. Well, now we're done with Man. I mean, we're going to have a bonus episode. We're done with Michael Mann. We're going to do the bonus of Miami Vice pilot, which we've talked about a lot today and I'll come out on Thursday. Which he didn't direct but obviously his fingerprints were We always try to

throw in a little bonus that's something they didn't direct but it's sort of connected to them in some way. What's your favorite man, Bill?

We'll do our rankings on the bonus. Could you pick a favorite? It has to be Heat. I agree. I mean Heat is like in my all time

top five, six, seven movies. But like I mean gun to my head if I had to like watch a Michael Mann movie right this all-time top five, six, seven movies. But like, I mean, gun to my head, if I had to like watch a Michael Mann movie right this minute, I think I'd pick Miami Vice. That's the one I can't stop watching.

But like, you know. You're a fiend for Vice. I am a fiend for Vice. Vice-itos. Don't you wish we had a theme restaurant just so we could name dishes like that? You know what I'm saying? Yes, of course I do.

Sounds great. I wish we could have a punny menu and just have a restaurant that's like celebrating all of our favorite movies, like our own planet. We should buy a planet Hollywood, David. You and I. Just like a disused and turn it into like Griffin and David's blank check, you know, food bag. Griffin and David's blank check food bag. Griffin and David present dinner. It's like those

there used to be a restaurant in DC it was called Cities and I don't know if it's still there, it might be but like every year or something like that or every season it would be a different city. They have rules. So like that would be what you do. Oh we would re-theme the restaurant to the middle of the city. Yeah exactly. So it would be what you do. Oh, we would theme briefing the restaurant to the middle.

Yeah, exactly. So it would be like for 12 weeks only, like Michael Mann's dinner. Right. Yeah. I was even thinking we could just put out recipes. Right. So we can put out like our Michael Mann nachos and then everyone can make their own nachos and eat along.

Or you could. This is a podcast. You could solicit recipes. You could say, if you were to make a dish called Michael Mann nachos, what would be in it? Michael Mannicotti?

It's Manicoy. Thief quiche? That doesn't really work. I'm trying to think of it. Michael Mann, does he eat? He doesn't strike me as someone who's like

a gourmet. I think he owns a restaurant. Fuck. I believe he owns, I's like a gourmet. I think he owns a restaurant. Fuck. Really? I believe he owns. I could be wrong about this. What if he made a restaurant movie? I believe he owns a restaurant in Miami.

He's a guy. Like a joint owner. Look it up right now. But he is a guy where I would believe you if you told me like, no, he just takes spoonfuls of protein powder. Given how many diner scenes are in his movies though, you know. Yes. Given how many Diner scenes are in his movies

Yes Now I want him to make a kitchen movie Because that's also about People under pressure Barking at each other His version of Big Night Professionalism that consumes you He should have directed Burnt

Michael Mann working with Bradley Cooper Would probably be a blast Bradley Cooper is one of those only movie stars left I feel like Bradley Cooper The Cooper is one of those only movie stars left. I feel like Bradley Cooper. It's not an obsessive occupation. The chef is like one of the most obsessed. Right, right. Where it's like you're completely, you don't have a personal life.

Cooper and DiCaprio feel like the two guys who could get Michael Mann a green light today. They'd have to work on it. Like it wouldn't be an easy green light. But I feel like those two guys with the right source material and being like, i'll look over them yeah i'll make sure the thing gets done on time right um anyway we're gonna put the blank check millions into buying a plane of hollywood yeah yeah contribute to our patreon so that we can own a restaurant we'll end up like michael clayton it's gonna be like in an airport like it's gonna be in like o'hare yeah it's like a counter you know you know how there was that big lawsuit where they had all the cheers locations at airports and there was like a robot

george went a robot john ratzenberger and they were just sort of like talk at the bar so you could feel like you were at cheers okay and the two of them sued and then the people in the restaurants were like no these aren't your characters this is just a fat depressed man and Like, no, these aren't your characters. This is just a fat, depressed man and fact-obsessed mailman. And they, like, won so much money in the lawsuit that all of them got shut down. We should also buy those robots and retrofit them, put them in our clothes. So buy Planet Hollywood.

Buy the robots from Cheers. And then it's just the two of us. And they just are playing. The box office game. Yeah. Internally. Yeah, so you can sit there and be like, oh my god, I'm there. Griffin isn't looking at his phone. Also, there's no chefs. There's no

waiters. No. This thing would lose... You just go, and it's a mess. It takes like three hours for your meal to come out. This thing we're pitching would make Black Hat look proper. It would lose the most money in history. We'd be like in the record books, but like, oh, the worst business proposition of all time. The number one.

Yeah. Bilge, thank you so much for being here. This was fun. Always a pleasure. My mom has called your previous appearance, the Dunkirk episode, the most relaxing podcast episode she's ever listened to. Oh my God.

He's like a very relaxing man. Yeah. It was meant purely as accomplished. She was like, I was like really stressed out. That is funny though considering that Dunkirk is one of the most stressful movies

ever made. Nerve-wracking film ever made. She was like, I've listened to that episode like 10 times because I find him very relaxing. Jesus. Wow.

Yeah. So, you know, take that to the bank. Add that to your resume. Start with an ASMR. I was going to say, we've had some ASMR-y guests and you're one of them.

Yeah. Miriam Bale is very ASMR-y. Some people have very soothing voices. Vanderwerf I find very relaxing on the mic. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, maybe this is a little spent.

Maybe this is a profitable venture. David's rubbing his hands together. That's ASMR-y. So that's Michael Mann. And then there's no palate cleanser in between we're going straight into Miyazaki the castle of I'm gonna fuck up the name again

Cagliostro I got it right Howl's Moving Podcast Howl's Moving Podcast yes so yeah I don't know go buy your Miyazaki DVDs House Moving Podcast was the title. Yes. And so, yeah, going,

I don't know, I was going to make Go buy your Miyazaki DVDs. Or go find out when it's playing in theaters near you because they're playing all around the country. Or go to your local library.

Go to your local library. We love libraries and we're going to buy a library and turn it into something else too. We're going to lose all our money. Thank you all for listening.

Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew for our social media. Joe Bowen, Pat Browns for our artwork thank you all for listening please remember to rate, review, subscribe thanks to Andrew for our social media Joe Bowen, Pat Reynolds for our artwork Elaine Montgomery for our theme song go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts go to our Patreon

for the Michael Mann bonus episodes we've done including us playing the keep role playing game and our continuing trek through the Marvel Cinematic Universe via commentary. And as always, black hat, black hat, black hat.