Blank Check with Griffin & David - Clifford 2: Hyper-Clifford with Tom Scharpling

Episode Date: July 18, 2021

It’s the direct-to-Crackle sequel to our original Clifford episode from four years ago! Clifford superfan and comedy legend Tom Scharpling (“The Best Show,” his new memoir “It Never Ends”) joins us to wax poetic on Martin Short and eulogize the great Charles Grodin. The guys also give pitches for an actual Clifford sequel. Would it involve a prison break? Ben thinks so! Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

what's his name i want to say podcast. Clifford. Little Clifford. Good job, Ben. So that was the quote you used last time as well, right? I know. It's your favorite quote. No, I think the one I used last time was when he's like, look like a human boy.

So you're doing it again. Right. Yeah. So I switched it up this time um this you know this is a position we we don't often find ourselves in if ever which is uh taking a second bite at the same apple uh circling back around to a movie we previously covered and not only that uh a movie we previously covered on main feed doing it again on main feed but this is a special day uh last time we talked about this movie it was ben's choice that's why ben started off kick things off with the quote that is not the case this time no and we don't think of ourselves as a podcast where we uh auction off

control of the feed for charity that is not something we advertise we're not one of these uh highfalutin uh i don't know dilettante balls where you're auctioning off dinner dates and and shit like that right we're we're parading our meat you know in in tuxedos yes hitting you know like you know old ladies with pearls or are bidding for dinner with us or whatever we're not we're not giving the walk-on appearances as raffle prizes but but last last summer in in the midst in the in the peak of the pandemic uh i was doing the uh the george lucas talk show uh every week and uh we were we were trying week after week to raise as much money as we could for different charities and causes and orgs and what have you and uh one man uh

single-handedly kind of raised the bar for our fundraising with what has uh since been deemed his antagonistic philanthropy. And that he would come into the chat waving around a big figure in exchange for forcing us to do something. That maybe you don't want to do. Things that were not even on the table before. Right. Such as throwing an entire pastrami sandwich out the window when I hadn't eaten in six hours. But at one of the weeks, this man came in on a phone call.

He placed a phone call to Watto and live on air negotiated the terms of a donation, I think, to hit whatever goal we were trying to hit that week, which was main feed second Clifford episode. And so that that is what we are doing today. It took a while to fulfill. You know, I had major surgery. David and his wife welcomed their first child and ben rode a dang horse so there were three major things that delayed big things going on right the recording of this episode but but it just so happens that things have timed out so perfectly because in addition to being the host of uh a double threat and the best show our guest today also is the author of the newly released book it never ends ladies and gentlemen uh here uh not by demand but by donation uh tom

sharpling our guest on clifford to hyper clifford oh thank you for having me i appreciate it i'm sorry that i basically paid my way in like somebody bidding on a charity auction to be like a to have a walk on on an episode of a sitcom hey um but those are always the best performances i mean i don't know about you but i could always tell when someone was really popping on a sitcom it was because they donated a lot of money for that that two-line role america's next top model you used to get to like be in an episode of veronica mars if you won like the weekly challenge and right they would always kill it playing like the person who's like oh the boss yeah he's right in there you know behind the desk i i read just yesterday that glenn uh he did that with Glenn Headley rather did that with the X-Files movie.

Oh, really? She just was like, wait, she paid her way in. Yeah. She's a non-speaking like walk on in that movie. And she donated her a real role. She's a good actress. Yeah. Whatever.

Yeah. That's that's troubling. I mean, they should have cast her. But but yes, I mean, Tom, look, did you force our hand for this episode? Yes. Are we happy to do it anyway? Yes, absolutely. Long overdue. That's what matters. We're all here. What matters is we're all here. We're all healthy. Yes. celebrating the movie Clifford far past the point of discussion

with it somehow. We are still talking about it. Yes. Now, can you talk about your history with this movie? Recently, Charles Grodin passed and on Double Threat, you did a Charles Grodin tribute episode

with Martin Short. Yeah. But I know this is a movie that's been a favorite of yours that you bring up a lot that has been a long-running part of your comedic sensibility. Yeah, it was one of those movies-time favorite things and I loved watching him become Martin Short the movie star and and on SNL and all of that and I love Charles Grodin and then so there's this movie that it's Martin Short getting to be like the most Martin Short Martin short could possibly be in in a film career where things were kind of capturing elements of what made me love martin short here's a movie that was just like we're just letting him do the thing he does and charles groden it's the same thing for him he

gets to be just this really kind of crappy version of himself the way he is on talk shows or in heartbreak kid he's he's not a great guy in this he's not yet he's not in full beethoven dad mode and that he's and it kind of puts these two giants together and I've always loved it. And it's a movie that John Worcester and I bonded over when we first met. It was one of the things that when we had that in common, we're just like, well, I think we're, um, we're meant to, to know each other and then our friendship grew from it. And it's been something that has just meant a lot over the years and i've

pulled multiple quotes from it for best show john and i have and run with i want to say mason and just it's just a very meaningful movie because it's also just so weird and it's such a turnoff to so many people too when they're just like wait that movie and they're just like that seems like it's terrible right and you're just like well it you could say it's terrible like i if somebody was just like i hate it it's terrible i'd be like i kind of can't argue with you about i can't i can't it's not like it's not like when somebody doesn't like a paul Anderson movie and they're just like, that movie sucked. And it's just like, well, maybe the movie didn't suck. Maybe you didn't like it.

But it's like it's not garbage. But like this, somebody could go make a case against it, but I can make a case for it. I mean, I think that's so much of this movie's legacy is that people either love it or it kind of like upsets them on a cellular level people are just kind of like immediately revulsed by it from the word go i think a lot of that is just the odd uncanny nature of martin short being a little boy and no one treating him any differently than any other child in the movie, which weirdly has now come back around and is like a very prevalent thing. Like you have two critically adored TV shows

in which adult women play young children alongside a cast of other children. Wait, what's the Pen15? What's the other one? And the Nassim Pedrad one, Chad. Oh, that's right. Yes. Yeah. It's just funny that like Clifford on his face, people were like, nope, absolutely not. Cannot put an adult next to kids dressed up like a little kid makes me uncomfortable.

And, you know, there might be a difference between male actors and female actors doing that and what have you. But it is interesting that both of those shows are very well liked now chris gethard and i years ago were pitching and we had ifc we were working on an adaptation of his book to write a series and that was going to be the device of that and that we were doing that like seven years ago he would would play himself at every age. Chris is a teen or whatever, right? Chris would have acted against whatever age group the story took place in. And it would have been like Chris and a bunch of eight-year-olds running from a 10-year-old. It would have been the funniest, like a 10-year-old bully.

And it haunts me that that never got filmed that would have been the funniest thing i've ever seen chris getting bullied by an actual child he's ideal for that i feel like that there is a not like like groden couldn't do this right obviously like you know martin short is one of the few look we we did this episode four years ago ben picked this movie this is a movie that i had never seen um i had a roommate who was a huge fan of the movie to the extent that they named their the family named their dog clifford out of their shared love for the movie and then had to deal with the fact that then there was a famous dog fictional dog named clifford that emerged later um and i think i i don't remember the episode very well

griff but you can probably i think i was incredibly unsettled by martin short well i had a chance to quickly review it and i just pulled a couple of quotes here uh the that david had said in the last episode well this movie is sick sure okay uh also said i'm rooting for groan i'm sorry i'm rooting for groan i want him to kill this kid and get away with it that's what i want to happen it's because i want to i want him to build that transit system right i think i was kind of weirdly especially at the time i i do i do love transit infrastructure i think i was very sad for his dream you love you love trains you love infrastructure you hate chaos and you don't like theme parks don't like theme parks don't like but i do think i i had this general i was so

unsettled by the movie and i was impressed by how unsettling the movie was for me. It's not like I was like, well, that sucked. I was like, well, there's nothing like this. But now on this rewatch, I guess because maybe just I knew what I was in for and I knew what Martin Short was doing, I was more prepared for that. I vibed with it in a very different way, but also have four years. Has the world become so off like clifford as well right that that you're sort of like clifford's chaos you're like yeah i mean dude you know come on fuck charles

gordon this guy what he wants to like be good at his job like come on who cares about that anymore right like is that is that one reason that maybe my i sided with clifford a little more on this rewatch i don't know i gotta say gotta say, Clifford hasn't changed. He's always been there. David has changed. David's changed. You're a father now. I mean, that might be part of it, David.

I was trying to reckon with that because this is not a movie that would make you... You shouldn't want to have children after seeing Clifford. This is not a... I don't know. Really? want yeah i would want to have a kid like clifford he seems fun well ben wants a clifford if you're cool with clifford clifford's gonna be cool with you you just don't lie to him yeah don't don't break promises that's all look at his family richard kind is an uptight douche and his mom is drunk the whole time. Like, when they're on the plane in the beginning.

This kid's in a horrible, has a horrible home life. Maybe the mom drinks because of Clifford. Well, right. It's 10 years of Clifford. That's what I imagine is going on there, right? They're 10 years in with Clifford, and they just can't do it anymore. But David, you're saying like, watching Clifford doesn't make you want to have a child in your

opinion, but does having a child make you want to enjoy Clifford? And even though you're dealing with an infant now, you are, you've very quickly gotten into a more beleaguered dad state. I think as your friend, you are beleaguered you're we went

to dinner the other night with uh friends of ours who have children and you were complaining about the sleep and the staying up i wasn't complaining i was not not in a crabby way but right just trying to talk it out because but i'm saying does this movie now work for you as like a comedic exaggeration yes i do maybe that's part of it too where where i sympathize more with cliff like where i'm like yeah that's what you know groden is so flabbergasted by this this evil creature that's been unleashed on him and i'm like well you know you gotta roll with it groden like i think maybe that's one way in which my my loyalty shifted where i'm like yeah you know having a kid is very chaotic that's one way in which my, my loyalty shifted where I'm like, yeah, you know, having a kid is very chaotic. That's okay.

He is using Clifford. Don't forget that. Right. Right. He has no interest in Clifford. He's using Clifford and it all starts. The problem starts is when they're back at home and Clifford is watching television and Charlesles groden says

let's shut the tv off it's time for bed at two in the morning it is two in the morning he's watching like a national geographic special he's watching he's watching nudity basically on a national geographic program and Clifford, to be fair, he says, he's very transparent. He says, I don't sleep as much as one might think. It's a little vague. Because he's up at five in the

morning eating like just pure sugar. Yes. Just to recap the plot of Clifford for anyone who has not watched the movie either time we've covered it on this podcast yeah he's we should say we should say at the moment that this episode's coming out it is on hbo max and not only is it on hbo max it is on hbo max as part of like a curated turner classic movies festival yeah that includes a Martin Short tribute. So HBO Max also has like a half hour sit down interview with Ben Mankiewicz and Martin Short

talk about this movie in part. But the thing I really appreciate is before you watch this movie on HBO Max, there's like a five minute Dave Karger introduction. There's like a modern version of a Robert Osborne shot in some virtual background where he is like giving you, I would say, I think does a good job giving you a sort of framing context for this movie. We're talking about what just, you know, it's out on the shelf. It's sort of unusual development, like things like that. But also, I think a proper context through which to view this movie, it's not that people don't know this, but I think it's the way you have to go into this because

you're like, well, Martin Short was a sketch comedian, right? He was like one of the best sketch actors who ever lived. And then he transitioned to movies and he found a way to turn his sort of like disingenuous, smug, you know, kind of show busy type into different parts and movies. But as Tom said, it would it would get kind of like slivered, right? He'd play one slice of what he used to be able to play in one character on SCTV, where he played these very dense sort of specific but multifaceted characters where there are four or five games going on inside of them at the same time.

And Carver was like, you have to view this as an extension of his sketch work. You have to view this as the kind of thing where if this happened in the context of a sketch, you would not question it. You would not be unnerved by the fact that an adult is playing a boy with a wig and a double shaved face because you're used to seeing that happen. But something changes when it's framed in a movie where people just get like upset and unnerved i feel like there's an aspect to audiences where there are certain movies that people flag because they think they know better than the movie and

it's like cabin boy is a movie that people go oh that's dumb but it's this movies people say are dumb all the time but there's certain ones that they say that's dumb and i'm smarter than that not realizing the people that made it know how dumb it is and they're smarter than you'll ever be and they're embracing stupid stuff and having fun with stupid stuff. But there's a, but that's that kind of, there's that next level of vitriol that you get from certain from the public with a thing when they feel that they've been insulted by something. Well, this is another aspect,

Tom, you know, one of the reasons you want to do this episode is you felt like we were not, uh, we did not fully grapple with clifford in the correct way in our first episode ben obviously very effusive on the movie david pretty revulsed by the movie i was somewhere in the middle in the four years since then we have covered a handful of other comedies that i feel had similar reputations where they were not just flops but they were like hated

made people angry like Ishtar is another key one obviously but we also did Lucky Numbers the Efron movie which falls into the Adam Resnick catalog with Cabin Boy and Death to Smoochie where people are like fuck this absolutely

not please stop it I work on Lucky Num numbers to a very tiny degree please do share because i was working with someone who did a rewrite on lucky numbers and i was their assistant at that point and i pitched ideas for trying to solve what they saw as plot problems um and i pitched one thing that did get filmed but did not make it into the into the movie i think it might be on a bonus thing like a dream sequence where he's hanging where john travolta is with um like a game show host visits him when he's in a dream state. So like that was something I pitched and I think it did get filmed,

but it did not make the final cut. And I do know Adam's original script for lucky numbers was very gritty and very crime, just straight up crime, funny crime stuff, kind of in the more leonard uh spirit of that like and he uh his movie kind of got effronized uh and that was not the movie he saw he saw a very just a very down and dirty realistic un unglamorous uh telling of that story i mean that makes i mean we we talked about this with efron where she was always it felt like she

was often drawn to very dark material but would struggle to reconcile that with her right with her storytelling style but like griffin all the movies you're talking about ishtar especially this movie just like what it's what tom tom's absolutely right people think they're like that the movie they're smarter than the movie or whatever like they're they're smarter than the filmmakers or something like you know where it's like well i can see what a disaster this is and they messed it up and i mean in criticism i think that is like the ultimate mistake you can make is thinking that you're smarter than the thing you just saw because then you're not a critic anymore.

You're like an executive. You're like giving notes or whatever. I feel like you can get lost in, instead of criticizing the art, you're criticizing the process of making the art. Anyway, this is i guess a classic example of that but then there's just also the that it's creepy but it that's good i mean the creepiness is good i don't it's a horror movie it's it's a horror movie it's a

psychological thriller it's an intense thriller and and it's and it's an intense thriller. And it's an intense... I mean, Ben, what was the thing you texted us today where it's like, it sort of starts fairly gently. Obviously, it has the sort of bizarre future opening presented as a story, as kind of a fairy tale. Also, bizarre opening credit sequence where you're seeing almost like these medieval tableaus. And it's very sort of like whimsical music

that still sounds a little haunted. Ben, what was the thing you said? Was it a sign or I can't remember exactly where it's like suddenly you realize like you start to sweat.

You realize like, oh no. Yeah. Like the pressure is on. The horror is about to begin. It's when you see him sleeping and he's made the sign I love Uncle Martin.

You know that is the beginning of him having a nervous breakdown know that is the beginning of him having a nervous breakdown that is the point at which that begins but to your point tom that's sort of like the moment where you could argue clifford is calling his bluff right like as you point out and a thing that i think makes this movie very unique and a reason people uh find it so unpleasant is i i was thinking as two counter points right of like just within the groden filmography and we obviously covered so much groden uh this year with uh elaine may but um you look at midnight run on one side of this movie and beethoven on the other side of this movie. Right. And these movies that are like

a menacing, a character menacing a beleaguered man. Right. Yeah. And Midnight Run, he's the dilemma. And in Beethoven, he's the straight man. And Groton innately sardonic, right? Innately just sort of like a curdled man. Midnight Run gives him like a soul. Like the key to that movie is the more time you spend with him, the more you sort of start to understand the humanity of this guy. He's not just a nuisance. There is kind of an ethos to him. just a nuisance. There is kind of an ethos to him. Beethoven, you're going full, not full Grodin grouch. As you said, Tom, they're sort of cutting it and putting it in a family friendly box. But it also helps that Beethoven is an innocent, right? Beethoven knows not what he does. He is a dog. This is just his behavior. you can kind of root for Beethoven and laugh at the fact that Beethoven is making Groton go crazy uh and then you think of other movies of this it'll look like what about Bob and what have you it's like these formulas are usually either if if the menace is truly evil the straight man has to be likable or if the straight man is really bitter like steve

martin in planes trains what have you then the menace has to have a good heart and clifford is like what if a man who has chosen to be cynical comes face to face with an elemental chaos. Because you also don't see like, I was thinking of like Man of the House and getting even with Dad and that run of movies that come a little after this. Problem Child. There's a little bit of an element

where you see the kids like planning their attacks, right? That's the thing. Those are part of the kid liberation of the 90s where suddenly that we're being directly marketed to on our cartoons and our comic books and it's kind of like hey kid don't you want to have long blonde hair and torment a sitcom star who can't book an oscar-y movie anymore like groden doesn't really count for like but dancing or whatever it's like don't you want to see this kid just put dancing through the ringer for 90 minutes like that's what we're like now we're kids we we we slime people we you know parents suck homework is the

worst boogers are cool right they're about a certain kind of agency and objective that they're trying to to follow through on yeah yeah and there really is i think it comes down to ultimately if you like the scene in any movie when a kid kicks an adult then you might like this might be for you if you if those scenes make you uncomfortable where you're just like why that kid kick i've always loved when a kid just hauls off and kicks an adult in something has it never ceases to be funny to me the idea of a kid just because the kid can just get that low that low to the ground momentum to kick an adult where they are not ready energy like just like the shin like the idea of like a

shin is such a vulnerable spot you're not protecting your shins you're usually protecting your like your crotch is where you're just like oh i don't want to get hit or kick there and then a kid just gets you where you don't even think about it's like devil's backbone when it's like let's stab somebody in the armpit or just you're just like yeah that i never thought about getting stabbed in the armpit that would be the worst thing that could ever happen but there is that thing when a kid gets strength and power over an adult and i've always found it funny and it will always be satisfying to me and watching martin short because like you said uh griffin he is an elemental force charles gordon does is has yet to realize the extent of what he's

up against because then he would have been like you know what i'm gonna just hire someone to take you to dinosaur world i gotta work on the plans for the sea why didn't he do that why didn't he say we can solve this i'll find somebody to take you to dinosaur world because clifford didn't care who took him to dinosaur world he wanted to go to dinosaur world clifford is id. I do think you are correct that the key to reading this movie is recognizing that no one is dealing with Clifford appropriately, that everyone is always has their own agenda they're trying to push. They're not actually trying to meet him on his own level. You know, everyone who gets the wrath of Clifford is also to some degree

trying to change Clifford. Yes, they keep tussling his hair. He says he doesn't like that. Right. They think they can control him. Clifford is like the weather. And unlike these other movies we're talking about,

the kid liberation movies, I feel like those movies have scenes that are very didactic where like the kid goes like huh so my mom likes his hair will she still want to date him if he doesn't have hair anymore and then you see them like putting super glue on the inside of a hat and then you see the hat and then you see them getting caught and apologizing like clifford doesn't have those sort of internal machinations like he's like a shark and his only goal is to get to dino land right and anything that gets in his way he will like find a way to weave around but whereas groden is like strategizing you know and getting things wrong. Clifford is just being Clifford. Yeah.

And he does explain before certain scenes, he says like, because he's like, well, we can't go to Dinosaur World, but we're going to go to the dinner party for Sarah's parents' anniversary. And then he just says to Stefan, his plastic dinosaur, he just says, isn't it funny that he doesn't have time for a little boy's dream but has time to go to dinner? That's fair. Yes.

Because he still is a 10-year-old, but he just has this high level of processing. But he just has this high level of processing. It's still a 10-year-old's brain that has this mutated, high-functioning adult sense of justice and retribution. But with a 10-year-old's code. There is an odd integrity to Clifford in that he says exactly what he's thinking at every moment He steals a Walkman so he can record, and he's editing together a tape to make it sound like his uncle's calling in a bomb threat. But while he's editing it, he says to Stefan, he goes, do you like Uncle Martin?

And he's like, I do too. Like, while he's destroying him, he says, like, I like too. While he's destroying him, he says, I like him. So to you, Tom, this is sort of a cautionary tale type horror movie where it's like there was a way through this that Grodin does not identify. He could have gotten away with it. He could have shown off Clifford to his fiance and you know impress her and satisfied clifford and clifford and and get everything done for his butt he could

have done it but because he has the the ego to be like well this is just a kid i can boss him around like i you know that's that's his hubris that's that's what the movie is about he's he's you know he many a horror movie you know people think they can do act they can open the tomb or whatever and they'll get you know they'll be fine that is the undoing of of uncle martin yes that he he thought he could just shove a little kid he thought he could just that an adult's priorities take precedent over a kid's priorities but not to the degree that it's just like well no i gotta do this the city planning and we'll figure your thing out he's just like he's slamming the door on clifford's dream

saying like hey man bad bad news i gotta focus on this thing we can't go to dinosaur world rather than find a solution to it right whereas like beethoven or whatever like the only mistake groden makes in beethoven is his kids want a dog the dog shows up the puppy shows up on their front door and they're like come on and he's like okay i mean i don't want a dog but okay that's his only mistake so beethoven is more that's that's just a metaphor for parenthood where it's like look it's just a nightmare you're just gonna there's always something yeah there's always gonna be something but this is it's a little it's it's like a fable or something like i guess that's

why that opening credit sequence kind of makes sense like there's this fable element for everybody we could have we could have figured this out. Now, do you feel like all the priest stuff that all feels like reshoot? It was, that was all right. Yes. Right. So this movie was made by Orion.

Orion goes under, it sits on a shelf for three years and this was all shot. The, the wraparound stuff in the future with the priest Clifford mentoring a young boy played. This is Ben Savage, right? Yes, it's Ben Savage. Boy Meets World Savage. That was all shot like two, three full years later.

I think to try to at least soften it. Yeah, it is. It's a softening to just be like oh someday clifford gains a conscience there is funny material in this because martin short is funny it is uh very telling that martin short is like very beloved at the time this movie is made and in the time that it sits on the shelf like father of the pride uh father of the bride not, not Father of the Pride, the DreamWorks Siegfried and Roy sitcom, but Father of the Bride and Captain Ron

and some other popular Martin Short movies come out. So his star only increases, arguably, at least as a family comedy star. And this is a movie that does not let you see Martin Short play his own age once. He's either upsettingly old man.

Comically old or frighteningly young, yes. Right. And there are parts when Clifford looks older than Uncle Martin. Yes, absolutely. In the movie. There are parts where you watch when the lady swings the bag back to like hit uncle martin when she thinks her kid got that he paid him to take his clothes off in the gas station bathroom which is maybe a joke that i don't know if anybody would run with right now a a funny funny misunderstanding moment of

lady i did not pay your child money to disrobe in a gas station men's room like what a fun miscommunication um it's like she swings the handbag back and hits clifford and he like he looks like the adult like he looks like the 40 40 year old that he was at that point yes when he's getting whacked there's so there's so many odd things like that where he's either like you said he's 80 or he's 10 and he's obviously neither. He's 40, which is also... Do you feel that this movie makes sense if you think about the career of the previous generation of comedians like Jerry Lewis?

Yes, yes. That is the only context in which it makes sense. Because Jerry Lewis could have done this movie at the peak of his career or rather, let's say a movie with this pitch. Right. He plays a little boy who causes chaos for his uncle. And no one would have batted an eyelid if he did that in the 50s or 60s. That would have people would have loved it. Yes, they would have. They would have loved it too much. The French would have given it a Medal of Honor.

It would have been lauded up and down the boulevard. I do think at the moment this movie comes out. The Rue. It would have been. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Dans le Rue. The moment this movie comes out, I don't think there's really that much of a context for this other than this is a thing I was kind of stewing on while rewatching it.

Because also just talking about the movies of this ilk that we have covered or talked about adjacent to movies we've covered that had such an angry response, comedies that had such an angry response. covered that had such an angry response comedies that had such an angry response it's very odd that like uh peewee's big adventure totally works it's very odd that's the only movie i i would argue of like the 80s 90s into early 2000s that has this kind of vibe and there are other movies we haven't covered on the podcast but but I feel like had similar anger. But Pee-wee's Big Adventure is set in Tim Burton's universe. Like it's not set in the real world. Right.

This is my point. My point is why- It's so incredibly heightened. Yeah. Why, just talking in terms of the court of public opinion, why was Tim Burton able to pull this off and no one else was?

Because I think Beetlejuice is a milder movie, but it also falls into this, where he was the one guy who figured out a way to package these types of premises, this type of chaos, this type of sort of surreal imagery into a box that people liked, that made them happy. I think part of what makes Pee Wee work is that when that movie came out in what, 85, he, Paul Rubens never did anything other than being like everybody. There was such a mystery around it. It was a closed circle. It was a closed circle.

Yes. And you were entering the, you didn't know Paul Rubens from other things. And now he's doing this character. He had fully created his own context for you to understand the movie. And he when he promoted the movie watch, he went on. He would only go on Letterman as Peewee and everything was him. It was like a self-contained world that you could enter and not feel like a movie star was playing this weird kid.

You were it was just Pee Wee was Pee Wee all the time. Right. To where it was like shocking when you'd see like Cheech and Chong movies and suddenly be like, oh, Paul Rubens is in this movie as a different character. That was like legitimately surprising to me to see him that early doing other things i mean i knew he was not peewee herman like i like but but it was still enough of a mystery that that uh you could hand yourself over to that world completely but i feel like the dinosaur world sequence in this has a real early tim burton vibe to it and cabin boy is another analog is a movie that was written for tim burton and then he decides to just produce instead and i think adam resnick directs that movie very well and visually does

a lot of the types of things you imagine tim burton would have done and people were like absolutely not and david letterman spent two fucking decades plus making fun of his own involvement in that movie yes that's letterman's that's how letterman was like emotionally processing but like griff you say the dinosaur world thing is burtney but it comes at the end of a movie that is not always that it's not even a complaint for me that this movie isn't heightened enough because i think that adds to the tension and the horror of clifford but this is a movie about regular people like he is he is i mean i guess peewee has that a little bit peewee is odd

right you know other people are less odd than peewee peewee is a strange interloper it's still a weird world though peewee is a weird world but it's a much weirder world right right and and and so it all just like logic is just kind of out the window clifford like charles gordon has very mundane problems he's trying to you know get a relationship nailed down and get a contract signed and get a you know get his butt like these are this is just any any moviegoer is sort of like yeah i guess this guy's like a middle-class guy who's trying to buy a house and shit and clifford is is like a genie that or what you know it's like he opened a bottle and this horrible like creature came out there's no amazing

larry and clifford and and clifford doesn't start with like five minutes of danny elfman music over rube goldberg machines all these things that just sort of like he lost his bike that's it that's what happened he lost his someone stole his bike he's got to get his bike that's it clifford you've got you've got clifford wants to go to dinosaur world sure but also groden's got all this bullshit that is just regular human existence you know movie i feel like has a a a spiritual connection to clifford that is a cable guy yes yes in a lot of ways yeah another right like we're like who is this guy why is he behaving outside of society's norms? Like, right. Like, yeah. Like you, you should not have touched this guy.

Now he's in your life and whatever. That's a weirdly stylized comedy with a performance that is in an entirely different pitch than every other performance in the movie. Another thing that I think just kind of upsets people. Yeah. I think just kind of upsets people. Yeah. And ironically, Cable Guy evokes a movie that Charles Crodon did early in his career, Rosemary's Baby. Yes. I feel.

Yes. I feel that there's this strange connection between these three movies, that sense of just dread of just dread running under beneath real, seemingly real life that the, that there's horror there. Right. There's demonic forces. Well, and like the exact thing I like about cable guy is that Ben Stiller directs the shit out of it and treats it like it's like an Adrian line movie or

something. But I think that's another thing that threw people off about it. Like that's, directs the shit out of it and treats it like it's like an adrian line movie or something but i think that's another thing that threw people off about it like that's that's another movie where people were angry when it came out not just that it wasn't like i'm interested in this sub this subcategory of comedies that made people furious and also seemed to like unnerve them obviously with cable guy there was all the discourse about carrie's paycheck but also wasn't it kind of just like this is not the movie star i signed up for i was all about jim carrey like when he emerged like his movies were fun and madcap and this is not like

the jim carrey i've been promised i want one jim carrey movie a year that is fun because it was at that point it was ace venturaura, Dumb and Dumber, and The Mask were everything that every, and then was, did he do, was Batman right after Cable Guy? I think Batman. That was the same year, right? Yeah, I think Batman and Ace Ventura 2

are the same year, the year before Cable Guy. So that was like his whole oeuvre at that point. Yeah, I forgot Ace Ventura 2 is that quick. It is one year later. Right, right. But that's no, but that is a good point because that's another thing is that like Carrie movies at that point in time were completely unconcerned with real world consequences, right? Like those are movies that all kind of met at the level and the energy of Carrie's performances. Everything was only taken as seriously as Carrie would take it. Whereas Cable Guy is like, here is like a Matthew Broderick movie that is being invaded by this other force.

And the pitch of the movie is closer to Broderick and the Carrie element is like the disruptive force much like Clifford you could argue where it's like this is maybe pitched for most of its running time more like a Charles Grodin movie that has this one sinister element you keep saying sinister I like think Clifford is

just like he's like inventive he you know he's inventive. He is inventive. I looked up to Clifford. I was like, I should really try and up my game here. You've talked, Ben, about the fact that you feel like this movie is the closest you've ever come to seeing your relationship with your father represented on screen. That's true.

As a young boy, as a preteen, you were very good at getting under your father's skin in a very particular way yeah yeah yeah for sure like trying to figure out some way to get my dad mad enough at the toy store that he would just buy me the thing i wanted you know like yeah, so this movie was influential. And, I mean, I really feel like we've covered this, and it's just, it's like hearing it is really reinforcing it for me in that the movie's perspective is like kind of from the adults, right? But really, if you look at it from Clifford's point of view, he's getting screwed around. And so he's standing up for himself. And sure sure he calls in a fake bomb threat you know and he throws a party at his

uncle's house a rager okay you might be softening some of the edges on clifford i gotta just say he's he just look at his dynamic when he's on the plane with his family he almost brings down a plane right they know him well he's he makes jokes to his father's face about him having a stroke and he's just like then daddy the stroke is coming and you're gonna talk like that like he's he's that's the meanest thing you can say to somebody you know they cut in the plane is one of the few times where they cut to old clifford again do you think that's because they're like jesus he's coming on so strong we need to cut back to old clifford just for him to say like i think yeah i was i was i was kind of a jerk right because he also will go

down the aisle of the plane holding his arms out like a plane hitting strangers in the head just because he's not always a victim. He is a monster, but he's a monster that you can placate if you just respect the monster. I think there are two independent truths going on in this movie, which is no one really listens to Clifford or tries to earnestly engage on his level.

Also, he is a figure of pure chaos. Yes. Right. Yes. Just because there's a way to satisfy Clifford doesn't mean that Clifford is a good kid. Clifford is definitely not a good kid. He's not misunderstood don't forget ben that he looks out when he's at the airport waiting for uncle martin to pick him up he looks through

the crack of the door and sees him before he does that whole i love my uncle martin routine it's the most calculate you see him calculate that moment sure Sure, of course. And, you know, at the same time, I don't know if any of us would have the ability to actually go through with getting a pilot to have to land a plane. I mean, that's impressive. Come on. Oh, it's very impressive. Yeah. Ben is just so overwhelmed by the scale of what Clifford is able to execute. Yeah, I mean, he's just operating at a high level.

Like, if I'm a shoplifter, he's a bank robber. Yes, yeah. And the part that makes Clifford scary to me is when you realize that he's he can do show tunes and he has full awareness of like adult things that no child on the planet for him to just like trick his uncle to get on a train to san francisco and which we don't even know how he did that also, because we see him in the distance, but it's not like I don't know. Like, it's a mastermind to get him to get on that train and leave so that he can go see that his uncle can go see his fiance get hit on by Dabney Coleman. Like, it's like he's he's playing four-dimensional chess if anybody

that gets thrown around now clifford truly was playing 4d chess he was thinking several moves ahead we should also point out this is before the internet okay yes i mean he he's doing this all analog he's making, he's grabbing a phone book. He's figuring shit out. He's ready, he's cutting up tape. He met a bunch of dumb teens and told them, you guys can party at my house. Like he's saying it's my house

if you take me to dinosaur world tomorrow. The lack of process is good good the fact that we don't see so much of this only makes clifford feel more powerful you don't see the planning but also that that you don't always understand the motivation of what he's doing like you understand his objective is just to get to dinosaur world eventually right eventually, right? But something like the party, what does that do in the short term? Clifford is really, he's just kind of jazzing, you know? He's just kind of like feeling it out

and going with the flow of what he thinks cosmically should happen. Because you could argue some of it is like, you know, reciprocation for the fact that Uncle Martin is not listening to him. But like a lot of these sort of like menace versus beleaguered man movies we're talking about, you know, there's there's a specific point for the embarrassment. It's a distraction. It's so they can get the upper hand. You know, something like him repeating the rug comment

to dabney coleman does not help clifford it does not help his cause right but he's playing by bugs bunny rules he's playing by bunny rules yes yes exactly if if you cross me i will use every tool in my toolbox right to to hurt you right tenfold it's like he's gonna only there's no moderation from him either yeah you started it i finish it it's symbolic it's symbolic because that does not help him get to dinosaur world any quicker lies we're talking about it's literally like the the priority is take this guy down a peg and for clifford that's irrelevant it's just you've gotten in the way of the hurricane here's a question could clifford just get to dinosaur world himself he's so capable he has so many tools in his toolbox why doesn't he just get to dinosaur world by himself

like why does he absolutely need a chaperone yeah he could steal a car i'm pretty sure right this is the thing like can't he just do it himself look to be fair uncle martin has some pull at dinosaur world because he helped design the place he would probably get a pretty sweet uh sweet tour of dinosaur world but i don't know why he just doesn't say sarah you seem to like clifford clifford definitely likes you would you take her would you take him to dinosaur world today it would help me out so much i mean that's kind of the codex of the movie is how well clifford and sarah get along is is the fact that sarah seems to be the only person who isn't trying she kind of gets it she kind of gets it. She kind of gets it. She doesn't try to change it.

She doesn't try to get in the way of it. She's sort of supportive of it because, like, Cund and his wife just feel so past it, right? And then, as we've said, Grodin is, like, using Clifford. He has a very cynical, transactional relationship to Clifford that he is not being honest with Clifford. He has a very cynical, transactional relationship to Clifford that he is not being

honest with Clifford about. To a certain degree, he's not respecting Clifford's intelligence even enough to say, look, I just need you to act normal for five days. So my girlfriend says yes. Right. Yeah. Like in another movie, they would negotiate the terms of that out they'd be like look here's the deal you want to go here right i need to i need a kid so i look good let's shake on it it would be very transactional but that's sort of key to to the grim fairy tale nature of this is that groden is sort of done in by his hubris of not ever wanting to meet clifford on his level and communicate directly about what he's looking for and the mason moment which is obviously one of the best line readings ever is so key to that character because it's like here he is bullshitting

five seconds after his marriage proposal you know this like pitch of a future life together isn't getting the response he wants. Here he is bullshitting and suddenly invoking a nephew that he's never talked about before. She calls him out on what's his name, not even testing him, but earnestly asking. And he cannot even like confidently bluff like in his bluff. He has to admit that he doesn't really know it's i want to say mason yeah you know he can't even keep up the illusion that he cares about this kid for one line yeah yeah and he he does and i mean i know it's obvious to say this, but there are scenes that are just, it's like a play.

It really is like, it's like a play. It's like the two of them when he's just like saying, he said, his choice of words, Gruden's choice of words, he says, I was made to be naked or like i was made like like that the police strip searched him and this is because of clifford conceiving the idea that like i'm gonna have my uncle arrested in front of his future in-laws like like what like it's it's just like but the way groden plays he plays it like it's just hot like he believes all but he is so committed to the reality of the suffering with

this and it's just i mean that's what makes the whole thing it builds to this to this these scenes between the two of them that are to me at the highest level of any comedy I've ever seen. Yeah, my favorite moments are when it's Grodin and Short, and it's just them kind of like one-on-one, and Grodin is just yelling at him. You know, like those are the funniest,

funniest moments. Yeah. When he has the plastic dinosaur and he's explaining to him at the table and then Clifford can't help, but put the, make the dinosaur's head rest on Charles Gruden's forearm. Just there's nothing to be, like you said,

there's nothing to be gained by that. Like he's finally, he's literally at the table negotiating with you right now. And you're irritating him while you're about to get a breakthrough, but he can't stop just prodding him. And it's, it's like like and then to take the the when he takes the um the tabasco sauce and pours it in for his bloody mary and but it just like exposes the hypocrisy of uncle martin to do some toast for for this for this guy that doesn't like him who he never really has met

and just to be like, we love you. He's such a disingenuous schmuck. Yeah. Even to the extent, to go back to it, like how quickly he starts constructing a lie to try to seal the deal on a marriage proposal. You know, like this is the woman he loves that he wants to spend the rest of his life with. And she hesitates for a moment. And he immediately goes to creating this fake narrative of him and a nephew.

Everything this guy does is transactional, right? It's trying to talk his way into the outcome he wants, the relationship he wants with whoever he's face-to-face with at that moment. And Clifford is the first thing he has ever come face-to-face with that he cannot be reasoned, that he

cannot reason with. Well, what if this movie, would people have a different feel for this movie if it was retitled heartbreak kid 2 i mean i here's a genuine thought like this is him grown up and then he gets his comeuppance now by this other like he's the manipulator getting manipulated now i i even think if it was called problem child just because that's a movie that comes out around this same time. Then that's the dilemma. Right.

There's a problem child. Yes. Right. Right. I also feel like it's to this movie's credit that it doesn't do this. But I feel like if the pitch was, oh, it's a parody of The Omen. He's literally supposed to be like Satan. And you give it some title like Devil Junior or whatever.

I think this movie like for mainstream audiences was lacking a very like obvious blunt hook in its title to explain how kind of like figuratively you need to interpret this kid. So this is my question martin short as a movie star generally his biggest hits he's with other like three amigos right he's part of a trio obviously he does a lot of famous supporting roles is this his only movie where he is the title character? Title character, I want to say yes. There's that other movie around this time that he was the lead in that I'm forgetting what it's called. Which one?

What's it about? Pure Luck. Pure Luck's the buddy comedy with Danny Glover. Danny Glover. Where he's unlucky. He was paired with so many things. Inner Space, he's paired. Right. Three Amigos, he's paired.ver. Where he's unlucky. He was paired with so many, like, Inner Space, he's paired. Right.

Three Amigos, he's paired. Captain Ron, he's paired. Right. Cross My Heart, the one with Annetto Tool, that's sort of like a rom-com where they're like, it's kind of like a farce.

That's sort of closest to being his pure lead movie. Maybe that's what I was thinking of. Yeah. But you're right. This is one of the only times where they're really selling you like martin short is x yes could america just not handle that like is that part of like that as tom was saying like this is kind of the most pure martin short martin short star persona like you know as a sketch actor and so on like in a movie

like is it just too intense like i mean obviously there's like the jiminy glick movie or you know like there's things like that but that doesn't that doesn't really count the same way that's not like a big movie no but i i do think like i i feel like most people agree that martin short is one of the funniest people alive right you rarely meet people who go like i don't get it i don't like it like he feels like a guy that crosses all kind of boundaries but he needs to sort of be functioning as the counterpoint to something else to like a relatable normal. I think part of it is maybe that like his fastball is this kind of like disingenuous schmoozy bullshitty kind of thing, right? Like he's always playing with this level of arrogance.

I mean, I was thinking, because he and Steve Martin do so much stuff together, right? And still do to this day. And Steve Martin started out as this very heightened kind of showbiz, phony, idiot character. And then over the years was able to, for better or worse, evolve or devolve into playing like Mr. America, Mr. Dad, Mr. Straight Guy. He's the normal one. Everyone else is kind of like wacky. Right.

And he's the one who's rolling his eyes like he went from playing the jerk to being the guy who plays the guy that the jerk menaces. I don't think Martin Short has that in his repertoire. I'm not even saying that he couldn't do it, but I think he is so disinterested in that. And I think even like from my limited experience working with him and everything, this is like how he operates at all times. I think nothing amuses him more than people arrogantly, confidently, blithely hurting other people conversationally. His thing is so interesting because he is ultimately, I guess you categorize him as an entertainer. categorize him as an entertainer he's never been consumed with the thing is like well this is going to be the role that finally people take me seriously as an actor outside of a couple things here and there he'll do uh inherent vice or he'll do this thing but he was not going to win any awards within his role in inherent vice it was just an insane injection of martin short into it

injection of Martin Short into it. He's interested in entertaining people and using any skill set he has that will make that the result he will use. The thing he does not have that Steve Martin has, or maybe did not always have, because he was also an entertainer at one point, where he would do magic if that worked, and he would play banjo if that made you have a good time or do stand-up but then a point steve martin became clearly interested in being serious and being an artist martin short seemed like he has always been interested in being an entertainer and i don't

it does not seem like that changed at any point. No, it also, there's, there's something so like vaudevillian about Martin short. I mean, even just watching like his, his physical comedy in this,

obviously his dancing, you know, but, but even just the way he, he takes hits and stuff in the bookends, the beginning end of the movie as the old man and all that sort of shit. It's like there's a certain degree, I think, especially with comedy stars where like these people pop because they're good in a sitcom or TV show or supporting part in a movie where

they get to just be the color, right, where they don't have to handle story weight. They don't have to be an emotional anchor for anything. They can just be pure funny. And then whatever point people go, maybe you're a leading man, they start to like cut some of the edges off and simplify it and go like, here's the normal guy version of your persona. And then here are the couple moves we'll let you do on top of that. Steve, you can still throw in a couple excuse me's, but the rest of the time you're supposed to be this sort of like milquetoast avatar of suburban dad. And you could argue that, as you said, Tom, like he gets Steve Martin gets to a point where he gets more serious in his interests.

And then I think because of that, movies for him literally just become a vehicle to make money to buy more paintings. Right. just become a vehicle to make money to buy more paintings, right? So he just does the calculation of like, if I take these four things off of my persona, I will be acceptable as a father in a movie and I'll take my $20 million and go home and write my play and sit in my study. And that's what I care about. And that's fine to me. I don't care.

But Martin Short, even now into like his like near 70ss is a guy who is like a vaudevillian who's like i'm gonna use every single thing in the trunk every time i go out there you know he's a maximalist in terms of i'll do anything to make them laugh and i i think that works when you're putting someone in the third or fourth position in a movie and then any audience can go like well that guy's just funny when you're asking the guy to kind of anchor the thing and carry it along i think for some people it just turns them off because it's too much yeah and he it's very telling that when martin short reached a certain point in his career what he did was create jiminy glick where he was like i'm going all the way back to where I started, which was with insane character work. And to just have an opportunity to do that and to just be a character repeatedly in shorter bursts and not just in movies, that that made sense to him.

And that he also tried a talk show at one point like that that's where jimmy glick started was that that that 10 a.m talk show he had which was trying to be him bringing his sensibility to a place that might be a a vehicle for it, but turned out it, I guess it wasn't. He has those, he just likes doing that. And it's clearly, that's what drives him, is making people laugh.

But also, like, Jiminy Glick had this Clifford energy where it's like him sitting down with genuine, gigantic superstars and just trying to say the most harmful things to them, right? And also this sort of sweetness, the weird kind of like, what, what? You know, which is so funny.

He's acting like an innocent sycophant, but everything he says is the most kind of like laser-focused, like sniper shot to their ego. Like it was such specific hits to whatever that person's complex would be um and then he tried to do it as a movie and it like didn't work for people but something about primetime click where it was just like that show is like criminally uh impossible to watch now yeah but i went down a rabbit hole a month or two ago of watching whatever clips i could find on youtube and they're just so goddamn good but it's like is that like the best format he will ever find is like just playing the

biggest character with like the most accoutrements you know the most like ticks and everything and just for six minutes figuring out how to turn like every single word into a blade against these people okay so wait we are calling this episode Clifford to hyper Clifford. Yeah. And we're talking about Martin shore is career. What about if we right here, right now, try to like put into the world,

a sequel to Clifford, old Clifford. I look, I do want to throw out, I said, uh, uh, near seventies.

He is in fact 71 he looks incredible but Ben what you were asking is what would we pitch for Clifford to star a 71 year old Martin Short because we're at the halfway point the future sequence in Clifford

is 2050 right this movie was made at the start of the 90s it's now the start of the 2020s we're pretty much halfway into clifford's life so he doesn't have to be reformed in 2020 if you if you made a movie set in this decade maybe maybe it's a prison break movie i mean because i'm assuming he's going to end up in prison at one point although i guess i can now spoiler alert he ends up a priest well i understand that but i'm still thinking like he doesn't have to oh like immediately become a good kid that is a fucking wild thing to think about though that the the amount of grotesque old age makeup on martin

short at the beginning and end of this movie is to sell him being 70 years old, one year younger than he is current. And you see him now and he looks great. He looks like me. He looks like he's melting in the movie. He looks like a wax figure came to life and is in the heat. Yeah, it's a very interesting thing to think. You want to know what the middle years are like. Yes want to fill in the gap right yeah what is he like in college you know did he

go to college like does he become essentially a professional criminal did he become a professional criminal all these things maybe he steals dinosaur bones. You know what I mean? He's like you get involved in like the black market of dino bones. to try to make this movie more palatable. Is there a thought that you approach Clifford to and say, that's not canon? Like, the priest wraparounds are equivalent to the voiceover in Blade Runner. Well, let's get back to the purity of the original vision. Let's not accept that as Clifford's future. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

You can just cut that out, and then we can, or I don't know, we'll do a, you know, maybe it's like the spirit of Clifford affects somebody else, right? That's kind of fun. Like sort of a like body switch kind of thing. Sure, like it follows. Exactly, exactly. So you want to kind of do like an it follows with Clifford.

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah his spirit possesses someone well i have a treat i have a treat for for uh the three of you especially you ben oh my god this is oh boy a garment bag oh wait no a boy. A garment bag? Oh, wait. No. A men's warehouse garment bag. This is not from men's warehouse. The garment bag has nothing to do with what's inside the garment bag. Wow. Wait.

Okay. Is that Clifford's jacket? it's the dinner jacket I own the red dinner jacket wow that he's wearing on the poster he's wearing that on the poster right? I own it

I own the entire from that scene I own his entire from that scene I own the his wardrobe for that scene including the shoes how did you acquire this was this an auction situation

it was an auction situation and I got it Martin Short has seen it and verified that that was it he said that's real wow wow wow yes so um what is martin short's like how does he feel about because obviously it's like it's different for us and for these cult movies that develop like obviously the movie wasn't successful does he dwell on that or is he just kind of like

no it's good that it's found its following later and like i don't know what martin short's takeaway from clifford is he seems to be pleasantly surprised by it but also cannot indulge it past a point either because sure the reality is that it did not hit and it did not go well career like in a in a in a box office way it went terribly so but i think he it seems like it might be a cold comfort to some degree but he's happy it's better than nothing i mean he keeps working with paul flaherty after this right i think paul flaherty is the head writer on his, yeah, on his morning talk show, but then also was one of the main writers on Glick. It never felt like he kind of like distanced himself from the movie and sold it out in a way I feel like a lot of these guys, like comedians who have a big flop flop movie are then first in line to shit on the movie like they're immediately trying to i mean i know i get ahead of it cabin boy but right where

it's just like yeah yeah i'm self-aware about this right now i've always heard that with the letterman thing in cabin boy that there was that and i don't know if it's true or not that there was a prerequisite that if you were going to host the Oscars, you had to be in, you had to have a presence in movies at some point in your career because Letterman did not, he had been in zero movies and Johnny Carson had like a couple small things pre tonight show that, that he did before he was the, just the straight up host of the tonight show.

Um, I wonder how true that is, that that's why Letterman did that. Or if it was just a fun thing to throw a bone to Chris Elliott and Adam Resnick. I mean, that is Letterman's only performance as someone who is not David Letterman in a movie.

Like when he's in like private parts or whatever he's david letterman like those are the only other in i'm looking at his uh in his filmography now yeah what if david letterman just like showed up in a noah bomback movie it'd be amazing yeah well i mean like who is going to take that swing where they put him in the albert brooks role in drive or whatever you know he's got his big beard now right you just make him play some kind of weird villain or some or like a you know an old guy in prison or something you know some weird thing yeah yeah exactly like he he absolutely it's all just about finding the right thing and getting him interested

in it right well martin short in inherent vice that's an incredible performance but that is certainly you know the movies like like you said to come in and and give us some energy but like it's also funny that no one maybe martin short has no interest in this but no one's used martin short that way either like the sort of the surprise dramatic performance i i wonder how much of that is people not thinking to ask him versus him not valuing that over comedy. Do you know what I'm saying? Like he wouldn't inherently prioritize that over something funny. And I just remember there's the video of after the inherent vice screening at the new york film

festival when someone like from the crowd during the q a says like martin short this isn't a question but just like we miss you where have you been we want more of you right right and people are like losing their mind and then you look at his imdb and it's like the guy never disappeared you know and even if you go off of imdb and you look at things he was doing live or, you know, on stage or anything else and TV. I mean, the guy never stopped working. I feel like once a year or two, he does something that gets a little more mainstream attention and then people treat it like a Martin Short comeback. But there is no comeback and there was no fallow period really no he's he's that's and that's what makes him an entertainer yeah

yes like the millennia sitcom had that hit right that's sort of his alec baldwin in 30 rock type but he you know he hosted snl like a year before that and people were like martin short where's he been you know when he does maya and marty which is after millennia people were like martin short why hasn't he been doing a variety show this whole time you know what i i haven't watched the morning show but i forgot that he was like emmy nominated for that he had some role in the morning show that was maybe you know he's playing like an old talk host or something and he he played dramatic on damages as well did he not i think he did yes yeah 13 episodes of damages damages was was very into because dances and damages to you know like they that damages was very into plucking the comic actor yeah yes on a sadly

unrelated note i have to go back to work. I was going to ask, should we play the box office game? Griffin, we already did it. That's our only other feature. I know it's time to wrap up. It's been four years. I feel like in lieu of a better idea, we should.

Do the Red Dog one. It hasn't come out yet. Well, no, but there was an original movie. You want to do the box office game for Clifford's big movie? Yeah. I probably can pull that up, actually.

Here, give me a second. Tom, I have a stupid brain where I remember the box office for most weekends and David tries to quiz me on it. But because we've covered this movie before, Ben is now suggesting that we do the opening weekend of Clifford's Big Movie. Yeah, it's called Clifford's Really Big Movie, and it came out. I'm sorry, I forgot.

Wow. That's a really fucking great joke of a title. Because he's a big dog. He's really big. Well, he's not big. He's really big. Right, right, right. It came out April 23rd.

It came out a day before my 18th birthday, April 23rd, 2004. Congratulations. Opened number 19 at the box office, a million dollars. So it's not featuring at the top. But Griffin, can you tell me the number one movie? Is that John Ritter's last credit? I don't know. That sounds like a depressing question that I don't want to know the answer to.

That comes out a year after Ritter dies. I think it might be. He had a lot of, you know, he would show up in movies after. You know, he had weirdly. That's Santa. Yeah, you know, he pops up in a few things. I can't remember. Okay, it's his second to last credit.

He's in something called Stanley's Dinosaur Roundup, which is a Disney Channel original movie. All right. Well, thank God that that was his final credit. But number one, Griffin, it's a thriller, an R-rated crime thriller starring one of the great movie stars. It's a movie we'll cover on this podcast one day. It's from a big director, but sort of a vulgar auteur type director.

A director he works with a lot great movie star this star works with that director a lot a lot a lot um it's like a revenge movie kind of like a rampage movie it's like yeah he's this guy is gonna go crazy crazy. Oh, it's Man on Fire. It's Denzel Washington in Man on Fire. Yeah. Which is two and a half hours long. That you had more time.

Takes two of the longest pauses in film history in that one line. Number two at the box office, Griffin, was a comedy uh that i feel like has a bit of a cult following now it's an absolute ripoff of an of a age-old concept gender swapped 13 going on 30 13 going on 30 i feel like people like that movie now like it was sort of kind of came and went at the time and now it has this cult following well it was like everyone thought that was the movie that would make jennarner Julia Roberts, and then it didn't happen.

I mean, it didn't do terribly. It did okay. It's opening number two, $21 million. No, but I just remember people being like, get ready. Here's America's new sweetheart. We're all going to be doing fucking laps over there. Fall in love with Jennifer Garner. Right.

Yeah. Number three, Griff, it's a sequel. It's a two-part. It's part two of a two-part two part it's part two of a two part movie it's part two of a two part movie you know film this one it's Kill Bill 2 the Tarantino movie I've

only seen once it's the only one I've only seen once how do you feel about Kill Bill 2 I love it yeah it's good. I'm a big fan. Yeah. Number four at the box office in this bizarre weekend

is a comic book movie. The kind that would never exist anymore. It's a Marvel comic book movie. Rated R. Blade. Not Blade, but in that realm. Is it The Punisher? It's The Punisher with Tom Jane.

Tom Jane's The Punisher. Man. Why wasn't Blade? Just picture if Blade was running through the endgame, right? He could have helped. He could have helped. He's got swords. He's got a sword.

The Punisher might have been tough. The Punisher, he's got guns. No, he could have shot people. Do you think he'd have to have a scene where he's like, I'm into Thanos' committed crimes, right? He's got his weird code he's got to live by they have to explain to him why thanos fits into it he's like did thanos kill any wives it's like yeah 50 of them okay i can work with that that number five is oh no i was just gonna say that punch movie is garbage and it's got like a

weirdly stacked supporting cast where like travolta but also like isn't like laura san jacomo not uh no i'm sorry uh the one from mahalan drive uh samantha mass is in it uh laura herring is who you're talking about right right right that's about it though ben foster is in it apparently i mean that's a that's a high class tom jane was just the tough beat for that one. That that's who they settled on to play the Punisher. Tom Jane does not feel like a Punisher. There's something inherently depressing about the fact that Travolta was doing that in 2004.

It was like, Roy Scheider is in it, plays the Punisher's dad, Will Patton. Okay, so I'm wrong. Comedian John Panette. Comedian, funny man, late great funny man, John Panette. Yeah, you go now. You go now. You go now. The guys at the buffet were really mad.

You go now. He was starving. Is a Disney movie, Griffin, is number five at the box office. Is it Home on the Range? A Disney animated film. It's Home on the Range, the cow movie. Rip. That's the end of Disney animation for five years.

Right. The movie that actually buried Disney. It is a snapshot of a different time. And the like Marvel is like putting out cheap R-rated thrillers. You know, Disney is like a dead brand. You know, this is April and the top movies are like a gross not gross but really grisly crime thriller and like a body swap comedy just you know wouldn't be that way anymore yeah also like travolta doing punisher was like a nail in his coffin rather than like oh look marvel's like bringing back like marvel is now quentin tarantino

where it's like oh it's taking like 70 actors 70s actors off the shelf and giving them a career boost. But that's it. So thank you, Ben, for suggesting that. We did not have to do the Clifford box office again. Clifford, of course, did terribly at the box office. But we've got to let Tom go. So let's wrap it up. Let's land the plane.

Tom, any final thoughts you want to leave us with um thank you for letting me pay my way onto your show I appreciate it next time just come on next time you know you'll just do a movie come on I'll say this Tom I have multiple times in the past told you that you opened door policy you were invited to come on I would say here's a list of things we're doing or say, is there anything else you want to do? And your response would always be something. The one I remember in particular is I would like to do an episode

that is both movies called The Birth of a Nation. The Nate Parker and the D.W. Griffith. Yeah. Clifford was the first time you suggested something viable. Yes, that's fair. Okay, I will be more, I will cast a wider net in the future.

I appreciate you having me on. Seriously, I do appreciate it. It's so much fun. Of course. You're a legend of podcasting and of movie opinions and comedy and all of it. And I appreciate all the support you gave the George Lucas Talk Show last year. And have given this show over the years. You had been an eye on the best show.

I will get the name right going forward. I will not call it Black Chunk. I will show some respect and get the name right. But now I have to go get yelled at now you have to go yell that it all ends it never ends it never ends well this ends this episode ends

but it never ends is the book which is now available wherever you buy books yes thank you for having me on I truly do appreciate it of course thank you so much thank you Tom I'll talk to you guys later. Bye.

Bye. Okay, so now we start talking about Clifford the Bedrag Dog, right? The thing is, he's really, really big. He's huge. Huge. Okay. I haven't even watched the trailer.

But everyone was bagging on this trailer, right? That's the thing. They're mad. They're mad that it just kind of looks like a regular dog or something. What's the beef with the trailer? It does look weird. I mean, I can't deny it looks weird. David, we need a way to end this episode.

Should we live watch the trailer? Yeah, I just threw it out. You want to watch it with me? Hold on. Hold on. All right. Okay, fine. People got very excited thinking we were doing an episode on this movie you wanted to be in this movie is

are we allowed to talk about that yes i want obviously it's a wall right and wall becker falls into look old dogs is to me what what clifford is to Ben and Sharpling arguably. Right. Yes. It's your, your sort of bizarre object. You're that you, you know? Yeah. Right. And I,

I have so many questions about Walt Becker as a man and how much he knows what he's doing. And I tried very, very, very hard to get cast in this movie and thought I had gotten the part. They had sort of spoken to me as thought i had gotten the part they had sort of spoken to me as if i had gotten the part they did the things that in hollywood they do where they're like please keep these dates open please don't get a haircut we want to make sure that this is cleared and whatever

and then it turned out i will not say what part because i don't want to embarrass anybody i'll tell you off mike and i'm sure you've told me before i just forgot And then it turned out, I will not say what part because I don't want to embarrass anybody. I'll tell you off, Mike. And I'm sure you've told me before. I just forgot. It was like it was like a good one scene or two scene part. Right. And I think there are a lot of comedic actors who have roles like this in this movie, like kind of ringers coming in for one scene or two scenes.

Yeah. I'm seeing like Russell Peters, Horatio Sands, Tony Hale, a lot of these big guys. Look, the audition waiting room I went to was stacked. It really felt like it brought everyone in. It's got a very overqualified cast. I really felt like I killed this audition, really wanted to do it. They kind of said, like, we have a pin in you. Please don't book any other jobs, this and that.

And then it turned out that an actor who is inarguably bigger than me, but is not a superstar, was their choice, but was absolutely adamant that he would not do the movie unless they gave him billing in the opening credits. Oh, wow. It was one of those things where I was like, I will pay you to let me be in this movie. You don't have to put me in the credits, period. And they just kept holding out with this guy until the last second. And then I think either they folded or his agents folded or whatever. And I was a negotiating tactic. I wish I was in it.

That having been said, let's watch the trailer for Clifford. All right. So let's count it down so people at home can sink. All right. Not the's watch the trailer for Clifford. Alright. So, let's count it down so people at home can sync. Not the teaser, the trailer. The trailer. The official trailer. The teaser was just CGI Clifford, right? Okay. And we will begin watching the trailer for

Clifford the Big Red Dog. We're watching on the Paramount Pictures page. You should watch there. There's no chuff at the beginning. Okay? In three, two, one. Mason. on pictures page you should watch there there's no chuff at the beginning okay in three two one may not believe it is that cleese oh yes cleese is narrating john cleese right you have this sort of like planet earth koyana scottsy style slow motion new yorker footage right i think in this movie as well in addition to being a narrator movie he's in this movie right wait who's this who's playing uncle this is jack whitehall okay david this is jack whitehall

british comedian star of his own sitcom now hollywood is trying to make him a leading man he also plays emily blunt's brother in jungle cruise who is apparently the first openly gay character in a disney movie they keep saying oh my god okay wait our tears made him big damn and now and then he grows big overnight oh so it's basically just beethoven yeah because that's what beethoven is is they get a puppy but this is hilarious because there's the thing he's huge guys look how big he is i mean look here's my first complaint about this movie it takes place in new york city this premise doesn't work in new york city there is no space big enough for this dog right but that's you know but that's the whole isn't the whole oh keenan uh the whole thing is like uh he broke the weight because he's so

heavy guys these are jokes come on big city it's like you know like we all know clifford lives in an anonymous suburban town but what if you know for the movie, we level up? Why is someone in a ball? Oh, well, you know, people do that. They're working out? Yeah. It's an exercise routine? I don't know. I feel like it's a thing.

This just looks like shit. And he's not big enough. Oh, he just ate a dog. Okay, that's the Walt Becker touch. That was good. Now, when the first teaser came out people were complaining about the color of clifford right that he was sort of like muddy red desaturated and now i feel like he's he's more saturated but it's a dark red it's like a blood red you know i feel like clifford in this movie appears to be like maybe

the size of a suv or he's not big enough how fucking big do you want him to be he's supposed to be like the child you i don't know it's like riding on him and it's barely noticeable like he's supposed to be huge well this is just the first movie they have to go somewhere in the sequels he's maybe still a puppy i'm with david i think they fucked up they fucked up big time i mean here are a couple things i want to say about it one i understand what you're saying david that the premise is clifford big dog big city right as i remember it from the original clifford book and perhaps i wrong, but my memory is that they live in the city, and then once he gets so big, they move to the suburbs

because they can't fit him in anymore, right? Where this trailer loses me in credibility is the moment that they wake up and he's suddenly big and he hasn't destroyed their entire New York City apartment, that the ceilings are high enough to fit him, that he can walk from room to room,

that they live in this fucking palatial... You know how hard it is to get an apartment in New York? I mean, with high ceilings are high enough to fit him, that he can walk from room to room, that they live in this fucking palatial... You know how hard it is to get an apartment in New York? I mean, with high ceilings, no less? Come on. I think the only place in New York City that Clifford could fit into is Jeffrey Epstein's mansion. And I'm sorry for invoking it,

but it really does feel like that's the only space big enough for him. And I watch this trailer, and I see that clifford is fitting under the roof and i ask how did they afford this place where did they work and what did they know you know you don't make this kind of money honestly to have a clifford-sized apartment that's all i'm saying yeah i my problem is that that movie looks boring i just the nothing interesting happened except clifford was running around except right at the end he had a dog so that was sort of interesting

he spat the dog out but still little tension there now let me say this i hope this isn't breaking any nda i forget that i signed fucking four years ago or whatever from my memory My memory of the audition sides that I read, the conflict of this movie is that geneticists want to use Clifford to grow other animals to be this size to solve world hunger. That's part of the log line for this movie. So it's definitely there. They're leading with that. That there's like an Okja element to this where where the girl doesn't want Clifford to be turned into food. I think that's what Tony doesn't want to be like a science experiment or whatever.

Right. I think Tony Hale might be the villain. She doesn't want Clifford to be fed to the gaping mob capitalism. Okay. Whatever. No, I'm not, I know.

No, I'm not going to truck with this. You fucked up. I don't care. Don't try and sell me on oh well clifford you know yeah it's about no it's not you should just had a big red dog who causes trouble for 90 minutes and then got out of there yeah honestly doesn't beethoven have a science uh part like someone wants to kidnap beethoven too right i'm trying to remember he's like well wait a second they want to they want to capture beethoven two comma t. Wait a second. They want to capture Beethoven 2, T-O-O,

or they want to capture Beethoven 2nd? No, no, no. That was really great. Thank you. Hold, hold, hold. David, hold. Thank you. I guess...

For applause and laughter. David, hold. No, I mean, they're still going. I mean, that was a standing O right there. I have to go. I have to go. I think maybe in Beethoven, they're just trying to euthanize him. I mean, that was a standing O right there. I have to go. I have to go. I think maybe in Beethoven,

they're just trying to euthanize him. I just remember at Beethoven at the end, he's like captured by a vet and they have to free Beethoven. It's a drool scientist, actually. But I think it's just like kind of a classic dog catcher thing. Like, I don't think they want to do like a science experiment on Beethoven.

So Clifford has more energy. What? Do you know that Rosie Perez and David Alan Greer are in this movie? experiment on Beethoven. So Clifford has more energy. What? Do you know that Rosie Perez and David Allen Greer are in this movie? I believe David Allen Greer is the voice of Clifford the Big Red Dog. Wow. I can't speak to Rosie. David Allen Greer

as the vocal effects for Clifford is how he is credited. Why? Clifford talks? I don't think so. I think he just barks i think he just barks in the books he didn't talk and then they did the fucking cartoon show that turned into clifford's really big movie and that was john ritter as clifford could talk but only to other dogs cool sure right right love to be a fly on that wall you know what i mean I don't know what you mean at all hear dogs talk to each other especially a big

dog talking to a small dog like I mean what would it be like that's a podcast right there big dog small dog alright Griffin end the episode now I'm begging you I don't know I have some more Clifford questions

no end the episode. It's over. I gotta go. Siobhan Fallon's in it? Yeah, she's great. Paul Rodriguez plays Alonzo, a bodega owner. Sounds good. Love Paul Rodriguez. Alright, I'll close it out.

So this has been Blank Check with Griffin and David. Oh, I forgot all of it. So actually, no, Griffin has to do it. Or David, you can do it, maybe. I don't know. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe.

Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media, Joe Bowen and Pat Rounds for our artwork. Thank you to Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song. No research was done for this episode whatsoever true you can go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit and go to our shopify page for some real nerdy merch next week are we getting old not yet space jam yep a a movie that David is going to be I mean look

David I know it was frustrating for you to have to talk through these logic questions of Clifford at the end of this episode so it must be a relief to know that next week will be a warm bath of you just watching a very comforting honestly made straightforward

no notes no one had any notes on this movie comforting, honestly made. Yeah, right. Straightforward. No notes. No notes. No one had any notes on this movie. Space Jam A New Legacy. Well, you'll say what? I went to my local comic book store the other day. Sure. DC recently published a Space Jam graphic novel adaptation.

Which I believe sums up the plot of the movie, right? Or at least some of it. Yeah, I leafed through that. I have a lot of questions. Great. Cool. I did like a flip book just to try to get a sense of some of the things that are happening and I'm more confused now. But that's what we're doing next week. My brother James E. Newman's triumphant return

to the podcast. Space Jam 2. A new legacy. Week after that, old. Week after that, we're talking dark star uh going into john carpenter um that's all we need to say uh stay tuned for uh clifford three tomb of the dragon emperor which i think we currently have scheduled for uh 2025 um and as always 2025. And as always, I want to say Macy.