Blank Check with Griffin & David - Clueless with Heidi Gardner

Episode Date: June 8, 2025

Okay, so you’re probably going, “Is this like a Noxzema commercial or what?” But seriously, this is actually a way normal podcast about one of David Sims’ favorite movies! SNL’s Heidi Gardner (a total betty) joins us to talk about Amy Heckerling’s beloved Jane Austen adaptation, and we’re rolling with the homies. Join us for Alicia Silverstone and Paul Rudd career discussion, a lot of local Kansas City lore, and Ben’s takes on Cher’s iconic fits.  Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your  pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why should I listen to you anyway? You're a podcaster who can't drive. That was way harsh, Ty. She called me David. Well, you're doing the character. That's not how you talk that time. I'm inhabiting the character. That's how Ty sounds. We had to do a flip there because that was the quote that jumped out to me.

And then I realized I am a podcaster who can't drive. It would be unfair if I accused you of being a podcaster who can't drive, it would be unfair if I accused you of being a podcaster who can't drive because you love driving even though I usually do the quote. I want to ask a question to the, and please our guests should weigh in on this too. Is Ty rich? Cause like this is a private school I think, or I think, or it's like a really nice Beverly Hills school. It feels like a, yes. Everyone there is probably like kind of well, but she's got the New York accent to sort of differentiate her and she's a little more alt But like is like do you think what her parents are like?

You know music promoters or something You know what I mean like you said right before we started recording that this is perhaps the movie you've seen most in your life I've thought about this movie a lot. They never They don't really get anything get at why she moved from New York to Beverly Hills, right? It is an interesting question. You have to imagine it has to be some kind of parent job transfer. Yeah, sure. Right?

Yeah, like is it a showbiz thing? She's just so New York, you know? Yeah, it's a good question. I saw, I mean like Fast Times at Richmond High, Amy Heckerling's other totemic high school movie is a film we talked about. It's very class aware, but it's also a movie that doesn't touch on parents at all. Yes. It's the thing on our recent watch that I clapped in the first time.

You never see a parent in the entire movie, which doesn't feel like some stylistic choice, but it's just part of the tapestry. This is a movie that like, Hedaya's the main parent you see. Yeah, of course. But I also feel like you're invoking the parents. You hear about him, but you don't see him. You don't see him a ton. No. No.

I hope that she's not rich, and I kinda hate that you ever put that in my head. Wow. I'm so sorry. I don't mean like rich in like an evil way. But I'm just like, so, and I'll blow something a little bit here with, which is that Amy Hickling wrote about this, right? Like she, in her biography, I think.

She talked about adapting Emma, Jane Austen's Emma, for Clueless. What does Emma have to do with Clueless? And how do you transpose the characters, right? And she said Ty was really hard because that character, Harriet, is like of low birth, right? Is like the idea in Emma. She's a little lower class. And she was like, I didn't want to like get into wealth, like, because then everyone just seems like a huge asshole, right? Like if it's like, oh, we're befriending the poor girl.

Like immediately it's like, just throws it off. So she went for New York to be like, that's how I'll make her seem different. Which also makes her feel like the heckling insert character in a lot of ways. Right. And she dresses in a different, you know, she dresses in this kind of grungy way,

which is like cool, but is different. It is the very smart conceit of this movie of turning the class structure into just social clique like hierarchy within a high school rather than within the outside world but some other interview I watched with her on the the special features I think she was talking about how her intent was to like make an idealistic high school where as much as there is like factions everyone kind of gets along Everyone kind of has money to dress perfectly. New girl feels like enough for me.

Just the new girl that doesn't know how to do her makeup yet feels like enough. And she has her own heightened dialect. Yes. Yes. I have a lot of questions like that I want to pose. Just because I've thought about this movie so much. And when I first saw it, I was only dimly aware of all that stuff anyway.

I was just like, this is, I get it, like it's American high school, I don't know. And now I think about it a lot. David went to high school in the UK. I did! That's so true. But you were with boys only. So very different social scene. Not like this at all. Did have the Stoners, did have the Jocks. Okay. Did kind of have the AV kids, I guess. Yeah. But not like this at all. Did have the stoners, did have the jocks. Did kind of have the AV kids, I guess.

But not like this at all. You had some kids at school who were sipping a bit of weed. Sipping? Yeah, you sip a bit of weed after. So Griffin does an English accent sometimes. It's accurate. It sounds like a sink cap. You get it.

You understand dialects. This is what you do for a living. But sipping a bit of weed. Sipping a bit of weed. Do you do an English accent? You've done an English accent or two. You know, I have, and I... Among friends, I think I can confidently do it. Whenever they have me do it at SNL, I doubt myself completely.

We had a sketch this weekend that got cut where I was British, and I was like, I'm kind of glad. Is it an in-your-head thing? Are there other things like that where you're like, don't make me do this? Because I feel like you have tremendous range. I will, thank you. I remember when I thought the first time I could do a British accent, I was practicing at home and then I called my friend Paula and left a message on her answering machine

just as a confused British woman that was like, hey, Laurie, I was just calling to see if we're still meeting tonight. Could you give me a call back? And I was like, oh, if I trick her, sure, right, well, I can do it, you know, and I was just waiting the next day at school, just kind of like, what did anyone call you last night? Any funny stuff happen on your answering machine? Yeah, how's your answering machine? Do you give it a listen? And she was like, yeah, you called me laughing in the messages of a British woman confused. But do you think when you get self-conscious

about having to do a British accent at SNL, it's still you flashing back to that from high school? It might be, getting called out immediately. Yeah, because is there any other stuff like that you bump on where if they throw you an ask ass you're like, oh fuck That's my weak spot. I mean singing is too. I'm not a singer and also they never put me in anything Singing where at this point I am just kind of like well, I am missing good opportunity where

So yeah, okay the singing but I've tried harder and I definitely commit It's just I I don't always get the cue to come in on. I'm like a beat late. You often do the singing during the like the warm up. Which is insane. So I'm like, you guys use me when you need me for like a kind of a thankless thing. I mean, I enjoy warming up the crowd,

but then you don't put me in the show. Doing, you know, a solo piece. This is, I would, I would struggle with a lot of live comedy broadcasts on national television. I think I would be a little anxious about all of it. The idea of singing and being funny is so face-meltingly scary to me. Like, there's no way I could begin to think about that. So you do think, like, I think in my head,

well, I'm like, bad singing's funny. It is, that's true. But it can also be so annoying and grating. And I think our boss thinks that. A little bit of that goes a very, very long way. And right, more than like 10 seconds of that, you're probably losing people. See, when I've had like auditions and stuff

and people ask me if I can sing, my answer is always, I can comedy sing. Yeah, that's true. I think I can comedy sing as a character, but people at SNL have great voices in these music videos. They're singing as themselves. They're singing for real. Yeah. Yeah. Comedy sing, I feel like, is a very specific thing though, but when you're up against people who, like, can comedy sing and real sing, yes. Hey, you know what this is?

Please. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. Thank you. I'm Griffin. I'm David. Podcasts about filmography's directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want.

And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. Sure. I was trying to think of a better, fluid-specific. Whatever. I don't know. I was like, what's the thing I can say instead of baby? Sometimes they bounce Baldwin.

Sometimes they bounce and sometimes they're bugging. Sometimes they're bugging. They are bugging. Sometimes they're bugging. This is a mini-series on the films of Amy Heckerling. It's called Pod Times at Ridgemont Cast. That's right. And today we are talking about your favorite film of hers, what you often refer to as your

favorite movie of all time. Basically, the one I've seen the most. I really think that's true. I think I've seen this movie more than any other movie. The other movies I feel like I hear you call interchangeably your favorite movie. Jerry Maguire, which we covered. Basically the same time and the exact same thing in that it is a movie I owned on VHS that I would watch with my mom all the time.

They occupied the same space. Yes. McCabe, Mrs. Miller You've thrown out. Yeah, but that that I don't watch that's like a good movie, right? You know about like, you know 1030 at night like well, that's like 45 minutes in my cave And then I feel like first matrix although maybe more Not not the same. Nah Master and commander master commander. Yeah, sure spirited versus. Yeah Yeah, Master and Commander. Master and Commander.

Yeah, sure. Spirited versus Totoro. Yeah, spirited away. Sure, totally. My daughter, it's Totoro. This is one of your favorite movies we will ever talk about on the show. It's the number one.

It's the number one. Wow. I was in a bad mood Sunday night, like a long day, one of the twins blew a nap, right? Tariffs paused. Tariffs, I'm like, what do I do with my semiconductor money? Do I go in more? Do I pull back? Sure, tariffs. I'm like, what do I do with my semiconductor money? Do I go in more? Do I pull back? Sure, sure.

And I put on Clueless and like within two minutes, I'm just in the most like wonderful mood, right? I mean just the it because it is such a bouncy colorful Like peppy movie anyway, like it's very hard to be mad at Clueless in my opinion. Can I throw a white hot take right from the beginning? That I've sort of considered before but rewatching it last night hit me really hard. Like, it's very hard to be mad at Clueless, in my opinion. Can I throw out a white hot take right from the beginning? That I've sort of considered before, but re-watching it last night hit me really hard. I think this is the character you most aspire to be in movies. You want me to be Cher Horowitz? I don't aspire for you to be Cher Horowitz.

I think you idolize Cher Horowitz in a way where you're sort of like, I wish I could be my version of what Cher is in her life. Like I wish I could be my version of what share is in her life She's on a journey of sort of learn a little self-awareness and like emotional kind of growth and all that You think I just want to like shop till I drop when I'm 16 years old and like a pal I do love to gossip. That's true. Here's a thing that will often happen and let's say our guest today From Saturday Night Live Heidi Gardner. Hello. Hi Heidi.

Here's the thing that will sometimes happen in our office here. We're all just doing our little work before after record. Two minutes of silence and then David just goes, what's the gossip? What's the gossip? I like that. Do you like to gossip? Yeah, I do. And I have friends that also are the, that pose the question, what's the gossip?

They need the download. Yes. Yes. I do, and I have friends that also pose the question, -"What's the guys?" -"The download." Yes. But David does, like, focused on an email, then looks up and bangs his thighs. Like, he's a king. -"Bring me gossip!" -"I get it." Um, that's so funny that maybe I do identify with Cher more than I think.

Like, I mean, that could be true. I love the performance and I love the character. And I love Jane Austen and I was an English major and I read a lot of Jane Austen. And I always say Persuasion is my favorite Jane Austen novel, which is about an introvert who hasn't gotten married and is very shy. Also your favorite Dakota Johnson movie.

Moving on. That's the one where it's like it is period setting, but like they're talking like it's fleabag, right? Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, I did see it. But then I'm like, maybe I like Emma best, who's like a, you know, a bit of a meanie and a little shallow and needs to learn, you know, a couple lessons, but kind of has a good heart throughout anyway. You're kind of like, she means well. I think you like the balance of being a little mean and a little shallow and needs to learn a couple lessons, but kind of has a good heart throughout anyway. You're kind of like, she means well.

I think you like the balance of being a little mean and a little thoughtful. Little salty, little sweet, all that. Loves getting people together. Yes, I also just love this 97-minute movie that has a great joke every minute. Like, that's the other thing about Clueless. It's not just that I love Tagass.

Griff just thinks it's a love to God. There is a great joke in every minute of this script. I really, we could print it out and I could point on every page. That's a great line. I feel like there are less than five examples in this movie of something being a traditional set-up punchline joke. Like almost every joke is something that is funny because the sense of the character is so well established Yeah, like the sort of like my surgeon says I should avoid activities with balls. I'm like, that's a joke That's like a joke. I mean to be fair. It is a setup also for Dion saying there goes your social life

I'm saying that's a setup right and then there's like a slam dunk. That is a setup joke, right? Right. Most of the jokes in a slam dunk punch. Oh, you're saying that is a setup joke. Right. Right. Most of the jokes in this movie are just like, it's funny. That is exactly what this character would say. You see how I'm about my shoes and they only go on my feet. And every character's voice is so specific. You know what would be a cute little project for you, David?

I'm just imagining it. I love getting a project. Because you said there's probably a joke every minute. Yes. If you did print out the script. I think I should. You did highlight everyone. I know you a project. You said there's probably a joke every minute. Yes. If you did print out the script. I think I should. You did highlight everyone. I know you have kids. Red pen.

But just for fun for you. Kind of like Cher highlighting the September 3rd call. I just like sit down and I'm like, yep, that one's good. Just to honor the film. I'm just picturing you. The ticket is the first notice. Like there are jokes like that where I'm like,

on the 20th time you realize that Hedaya knocked that out of the park, right? You know, like you're thinking about other things. He says, the ticket is the first note. I mean, I can't do Dan Hedaya. Have you heard her line about why she cast him? No. She said, I want the dad to be an actor who would play a hit man in any other movie. I mean, that's what, it was brilliant.

Yes. He's so good. He's still alive. I was thinking about him, because, you know, he's pretty old, but he hasn't done a lot of movies in a while. I wonder what's up with him. I used to live two blocks away from him.

The apartment I lived in during the pandemic. And I had a celebrity spotting at peak lockdown where he was fully masked and yet... The hair poking out from the t-shirt collar. Wow. The eyebrows. I said, that is unmistakably dead to rights Hadea. I don't need to see the mouth and the nose. I know.

And he had the posture. Yeah. He's one, if you were smart and he wanted to still work. If I was making, like, good television right now, I would cast it. Like, you'd put him in a White Lotus or something. Like, you would know him, a Joan Cusack. Like, those are people. Like, put him in a show. Let's get him to White Lotus. Because what season 2 had F. Marie Abraham, right? And that's fine. But, like, let know him, Joan Cusack, those are people, like put them in a show. Let's get them to White Lotus.

Because what season 2 would have Marie Abraham, right? And that's fine. But like, let's have Dan Hedaya. Like in that slot. Let's do a White Lotus cast that is all 90s Paramount comedy supporting all stars. Okay, so Larry Miller? Yeah, put Larry Miller, Joan Cusack. Is Larry Miller still alive?

Yes, still alive. So it's just like a retirees White Lotus is the thing? Okay. Is that still alive? Yes, still alive. Yeah. So it's just like a retiree's White Lotus is the thing? Okay. What about Alex Mack? Maybe call it the Grey Lotus. Yeah. Now I'm like, let's just have the cast of 10 Things I Hate About You. I'm like, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Alex Mack.

Just get them all. I know Heath isn't with us anymore. Julia Stiles, all of them would work on the White Lotus. I think that's its own season. Julia Stiles feels like a major option. They always have that person where you're like, oh yeah, like that person who was sort of a big star and then transitioned to kind of like TV star, right?

You know, like Leslie Bitt. Yeah, and it always works. Always works. Yeah. All right, Heidi, welcome to the show. Thank you. What is your relationship with Amy Heckerling's Clueless? Okay, so.

Be funny if you're like, never seen it. Can you describe it to me? me Heckerling's Clueless. Okay, so... It'd be funny if you're like, never seen it. Can you describe it to me? It was major for me. And the big thing I remember about it is obviously seeing the trailer, knowing Alicia Silverstone from the Aerosmith videos, it was like, that's the coolest girl in the world. Then it's like, she's going to have this starring vehicle movie. This is the best, the preview, incredible.

So my older brother, Justin, who's six and a half years older than me, he could drive at this point. So if we were gonna see the movie and we were movie buddies, it was usually Justin's pick. So he was kind of taking you to the movies. Yes. But we were usually in agreement. Mm-hmm. But I wanna say I had kind of blown the whole thing up.

I wanna say it was this movie that came out before Clueless. Mad Love, where it's like, check it out for dates. Chris O'Donnell, right? And Drew Barrymore. So that was May 26th, 1995, and this was July. So Mad Love was a couple months before that. Okay, so I pushed so hard for an opening day, Mad Love. You know, and Justin didn't really want to see it.

You know, I'm probably 11 or 12 at this point, and, you know, he's into college, and was just like, I don't want to see Mad Love. And I'm like, what about when she, in the preview, when she holds her hands over his eyes, and they're driving. And then you can tell she goes psycho, you know, and is like scraping the walls,

and he's like, I don't want to see this movie. I begged, I pleaded, he was like, all right, fine, I'll take you to Mad Love. Even I could tell 20 minutes into Mad Love it was bad. This is a stinker. And my stomach dropped and I was like, I'm not gonna get to pick another movie for a long time. You took your shot.

Yeah. And probably at Mad Love, I probably saw the trailer for Clueless, you know? And was like, ooh, like this is a good movie summer for me. So you're sitting there as Mad Love is bombing and knowing, fuck, have I ruined my play for Clueless, which now is the next target. Yes. Yeah. So. I am now fascinated.

I've never seen Mad Love. It's an Antonia Bird movie. She's a good filmmaker. Wow., I think, was her, like, okay, I'll make an American romantic drama. And nobody cared. Yeah, I mean, they looked great. But I just knew. There's few movies. BioDome is one of them where I was so happy

and then I knew this is a bad movie. Well, Ben's ears just perked. Is that your favorite movie? It's a bad movie. It's a fun movie. As Cher says, looking for love in high school is like searching for meaning in a Pauly Shore movie or whatever.

Right. Yes. You're going to have to take some looks at it. But it's kind of fun. We can't deny that. I think I walked out. And I think I was in seventh grade, and I was like, this is stupid, which was big for me.

I like stupid stuff. It is so funny to me that they did that, right, the thing where they build the biosphere in Arizona, right, and people lived in it and someone was watching that, I was like, what if Pauly Shore was in that? Pauly in that movie. Can we get like 10 million bucks? Like, is that enough?

I love everybody. Pauly Shore's in that. Yeah. That was a shorthand bad movie for about ten years I feel like other critics just because the title was so specific. Mm-hmm would be like not since bio Yes, right. It's probably sure over hosted SNL great question I feel like I would definitely still be watching that episode But okay, so you thought you'd blown it. Clueless is coming out.

Clueless is coming out. It's like a week before Clueless comes out. And I'm like, Justin, it's the summer. We were staying at our Mammoth and Bampo's. That's with my grandparents. Basically the whole summer. Above ground pool. It was just like a good summer.

And I remember saying to him, like, can we see Clueless on Friday? And he was like, absolutely not. I was like, Justin, please. It means a lot to me. It's a big deal. It's a girl from the Real Smith video. He's like, I don't care. You're trying to sex sell her, right? You're like, hey, she's a hottie, her mid-trif. We all knew it. It didn't work for Mad Love. So that was through very much. Belly button piercing.

We're not seeing this. So then he says, and I bet I wouldn't shut up all day. So he says, I will make you a deal. So in the Kansas City Star, there was a movie critic, Robert Butler. And Friday when movies came out, you'd get Robert Butler's reviews. And just for context, and that was our holy grail. For 41 years, he was the critic for the Kansas City Star. He was your definitive voice. He was definitive. And I feel like we usually agreed with Robert Butler.

So for context, like, it was a scale of one to four stars. A movie like, and I'll probably get this wrong, but a movie in my remembrance, like Sleepless in Seattle, would have gotten a two and a half. Like, he was hard on comedies, like totally solid. Another David favorite, but that speaks to, even a movie like that. He was kind of like, oh, it's okay.

That's high watermark of rom-com. He's still a little bit, some of his notes. But it's right in the middle. It's a little better than middle. And so you're like, we're seeing it, you know? And then a movie like The English Patient would be a four star movie. You liked your Tony Oscar classics.

So he told me, we can see the movie if Robert Butler gives Clueless. And I was like, he's gonna say two and a half. And you know what? And that's possible. In my brain, I think that's possible. He said three stars. And I mean, everything I deflated. Like my balloon of a person was like, there is no way Clueless is pulling three stars. I just know it.

And it came out, and I opened it, and Clueless got three stars from Robert Butler. And my brother was in the pool, and I ran out on his, like, raft, and I ran out... This sounds like it's right out of Clueless. It's so good. I ran out there like about to tell him like, you know, like America won the world or something.

And I was like, Justin Clueless got three stars. Clueless is a teen movie that's way too clever to be wasted on teens, he says, three stars. In fact, one would be hard pressed to name another recent Laugh Out Loud comedy that works so efficiently. Wow. It's very positive on it.

Yes. I mean, as he should be. It's a really good movie. But I have to imagine in that moment, not only are you like, I have won. Yeah. He has to drive me to Clueless. You're also like, Clueless is legitimately

about to be great. 100%. Right? You're not going to be on the legitimately about to be great a hundred percent I'm so happy that that wasn't a dream it happened No, but that's feeling of like I'm not gonna have a mad love on my hands Yeah, if he likes this that much I'm gonna be in hog heaven. Yes. Yes. He enjoyed my brother loved it Yeah, he had to admit. This is killer. Yeah, he was laughing throughout it And did you have like the greatest afternoon of your life? Yes, because it I mean for a girl in seventh grade Clueless and who loved movies and comedy but also

loves Aspirational people and women and girls at the time like the way that it looks is so amazing you know, it was just it's eye candy and comedy candy. And then just seeing like Wallace Shaw and like that's the guy from Princess Bride. You know, you're seeing so many people. It just does everything. It checks every single box.

It does. Yeah. I don't think I saw it in theater. I would have been nine. I don't think I saw it in theaters. This is very been nine. I don't think I saw it in theaters. This is very much a movie I watched. Like my mom rented it and we watched it and it was like, we're going to buy this and own it for life.

Like, and we watched it constantly. Uh, it's definitely the first movie where I was like, uh, it's based on like a book that's like not teen, uh, high school shit. Right? Like where that, because that became so popular, that format of movie was so big in the late 90s, the, you know, 10 things. Romeo and Juliet.

Romeo and Juliet. But that, they're using the language there, but that was also a big me and my mom movie. We saw that together in theaters. This is a David and his mom episode, I'm realizing. Yeah. In my head, I was about to be like, I think Can't Hardly Wait is based off of a novel, but it's not.

I love that movie. That's a good movie. But it feels like it could be. I feel like there's another really obvious one I'm forgetting right now. Yeah, what it, fuck. Ten Things is the most obvious other one, but Clueless is the finest example of the form, obviously,

and just hits that kind of high-low culture thing right where it's like it's a dumb teen comedy in a way yes I guess I mean it's a very smart movie but right like it has the sort of aesthetics of like a bubbly silly forgettable and things kind of didn't hit at the time okay I just remember this movie coming out over the summer and going back to school in September and every girl in my year, their personality was clueless. Like, it had been the most overwhelming cultural sea change. I did not see it at the time.

I probably saw it on TV like four or five years later. I think to a degree I resented, like, what is this thing I'm not a part of that they're all obsessed with and that my mom didn't want to take me to see? Why didn't she want to take you to see? Well, you were very young when this film came out. Uh, yeah, I mean, I was six, seven. Yeah. We're all young for Clueless.

Every girl in my grade. I remember one girl... I'm doing like sort of the slapping of hands greeting, like things that you could grab from Clueless if you're watching. I wonder if I ever confidently pulled off or whatever. I just remember there was a girl in my year who said she had, she owned two copies of Clueless on VHS. What a brag. And I said, why two? And she said, for when I eventually run out the first one.

Yeah. Yep, just degrade the hell out of it. Right. But it was like they swung back with like a language. Like they were all just speaking in clueless talk. Can I throw out just a fun fact about me? Because I had multiple VHS of certain movies, et cetera. My most insane version of her story was I recorded Good Will

Hunting on audio cassette so I could listen to it in the car. Yeah. That is amazing. So you like held your tape recorder up to the TV. 100%. So just to be clear, you had it on VHS, but you also had a cassette version in case you weren't close to a screen.

But you just wanted to get a hit. You just want to hear that Danny Elfman score. Those strings. Yeah. I, Paul Rudd, is in this film. This is his first screen credit. Is this number one? Yeah, because Halloween 6 comes out the same year.

But I think came out more in the sort of Halloween range. Wow. And people will forget now. I'm sure you guys know, but Paul Rudd did, his career did not take off for years. Like he kind of floundered or whatever, you know, he was like stuck in like cute 20 something guy where he's competing with everybody, I guess. And it's not till he's on Friends that I feel like he finally starts to pick up a little steam.

I mean, I think you're missing the other part of it. Which is, he's like a big fan of alt-comedy. And he's going to all these shows. He's in, you know, Wet Hot and obviously... They talk about that, like, he reached out to David Wayne and was like, I'm a big fan of your guy's stuff. Do you have anything? And David Wayne was like, this guy's been in a movie.

This is the most legitimate person we know. He has something vaguely resembling a name, even if it's sort of like what happened to the guy from Clueless when they're putting together an indie budget. He's a big boon to them. And I feel like- He's somebody, he's Ian Roman Juliet, he's an object of my affection.

Like he's in some movies. But that's like, right. This is like 95, 96, 97. And by the time that Wet Hot comes around in 2001, he had sort of fallen off a little bit. A little bit. And then it's like he's getting cool comedy cred and then the friends thing happens.

That's when he starts, and those two things feed into the 40 year old version. Who I'm just gonna talk about. Heidi, I'm not that obsessed with my mom. He's very obsessed with his mom. In 2000, no one remembers this, but there was a TV mini series version of The Great Catsby starring...

I remember this. Toby Stevens and Miros Ravino and Paul Rudd. Jennifer Tilly. As Nick Caraway. Jennifer Tilly is not in this, so she must've been in a different Great Gatsby. And my mom interviewed Paul Rudd for this. Okay.

And she said on the phone, like, my son is like a big fan of yours, and he just went like, ha, clueless. And she was like, phone, like, my son, like, is like a big fan of yours. And he just went like, -"Hah, clueless." -"Ah!" And she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, yeah, no. I mean, that's nice. You know, but like, clearly he was like, -"I can't get out from under this fucking thing." -"I can't." Right.

And it's so funny to think about that now, given how successful he is. That's all. Yeah. Well, it's funny, you were even talking about who kind of had like a floundering career in rom-coms until friends because a Big part of the equation for me is Paul Rudd is from Kansas City where I'm from Mm-hmm, so this guy the fact there's a Kansas City in in the best movie of the summer

And did you like you see boy makes big? Yeah, you clock that immediately Yeah, I think we there had to be an article in the paper, probably by Robert Butler a week later. Look, a boy does good. Yeah. That, yeah, that it was just the biggest deal in the world. So even you saying that, I'm like, wait, well, when you said, well, and then Romeo and Juliet, it's like, Can City Guy, that's biggest movie ever.

And then Object to My Affection, because I was about to say, what about Object to My Affection? A film I saw in theaters, but it was not a big hit. It's not a, it was not nothing. It's a good movie. I like that movie. And he's really good in it. He's really good. And then being a comedy nerd and liking all that stuff

and loving the state, when Wet Hot came out, we were freaking out that Paul Rudd was in it. He's so good in it. And it was one of those things where it's not just like, oh, yeah, they got like a famous guy to be fine in it. I'm like, he might be the funniest guy in it. What is this? And that Christmas, after it came out, my friends and I,

there was a bar in Kansas City called Harleys that you could get into when you're eight. They didn't ID. And we went to this bar underage, and Paul Rudd was there of age, as you should be. And we were like, oh my God, it's the guy from Wet Hot. And we went up to him freaking out about Wet Hot American Summer and he couldn't believe that these teens...

Anyone even knew it. It's the flip of the clueless phone call. He's like, oh my God, you know me from that. And then he took a picture with us giving the stank face from Wet Hot. It was incredible. He lived mostly in Lenexa. What's Lenexa? It's like a Kansas City suburb or something. I'm just reading about his...

I feel like it was Lee Wood, but I might be... Look, I'm going by the Wikipedia, which is not always right. I was watching the Blu-ray for this movie, which is... We're coming up on the 30th anniversary of Clueless. Crazy. The Blu-ray I have is the 20th anniversary edition, and is basically loaded with special features

from the 10th anniversary edition. Wow. So it is a bunch of interviews cut into different themed packages. That thing I love in that era where they're just like, we need eight special features listed on the back and you watch them and you're like This is one special feature cut into separate chunks, right? This is the same batch of interviews you did with everyone ten years later

Yeah, and you're like, but this is ten minutes just on the language This one's just about the fashion, but it's all cutting in the same footage They talked to everyone basically other than Silverstone, interestingly. And it was late that I clocked like, huh, she's the one person who's not here. But there's a bunch of Paul Rudd clips, all these people in 2005. And Paul Rudd is at like such a transitional moment where like 40 year old Virgin is coming out that year. Anchorman came out the year before. He's about to have the full comedy crossover threshold. And he's saying that like he got sent the script and was like ugh and is like reading it kind of begrudgingly. Where you have to

imagine he's like I don't want to do like shitty stupid teen comedies because he's such a comedy nerd. He's like assuming this is lowest common denominator And then he's like 15 pages in I'm begrudgingly like that's kind of funny That's like kind of a good joke and then he's like I got to the end of it and I was like this is actually Really well written like this is good, right and then said he basically auditioned for every other character before Josh He wanted to do Alton or something like that. He wanted to play Murray. And he went in and was like, I want to read for Murray.

And they're like, Murray's black. I was going to say, no. And he was like, I didn't get that. You didn't get that? How close was he reading the script? It makes sense, though, if you think about Paul Rudd, a guy who's... Woman, let me $5.

He's like, hey, I can do that. He thought that was the bit. He thought the bit was, it's a white kid who's obsessed with hip hop and talks like this. Okay, okay. I guess I can see that. And Hector Link said in his defense, it's not stated in the script. Sure, sure. Right? But you imagine, here's this guy who's this unbelievably handsome, right? Is like a cutie pie.

Good looking guy, yeah, yeah, yeah. But also has like this weird sense of humor that he's like the thing I don't want to do is play the like heightened boring serious guy that she ends up with at the end like playing the love interest could be Constricting to your let me play a silly guy Any of the other guys right and that they just kept being like you want to maybe read Josh You want to maybe read Josh and he liked the script so much that he agreed to do it. I have to imagine that the scripts he got sent after this was a hit,

if he's reading the shitty versions of Clueless, asking him to play the Josh type again, that's probably death to him. Which is probably why he spent a couple years sort of floundering. Because he didn't like cash in on the obvious. He also just needed to get older. I mean, it's the most boring observation in the world, but Paul Rudd just like, you know, just needed to hit his thirties and look even better and whatever.

But object of my affection is him like not doing the obvious rom-com thing. Yeah, no, because he's playing a gay guy in that movie. Right. In the nineties. Yes. Yeah, and I mean, he's in like Cider House Rules, but he's got kind of the boring role in that. He's anyway, look, we'll talk about Paul Rudd.

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It diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian terms and conditions apply see site for details Amy heckerling just to open our dossier, research dossier, makes Look Who's Talking, and then she makes Look Who's Talking 2. These movies are hits, but she's very depressed. The first one's a mega hit. She didn't have a fun experience. And she's like, they basically forced me to make the second one right away. She gets attached to a remake of the Alan Renee comedy My American Uncle, which is going to be called Rat Race, not related to the later actual movie called Rat Race. But she was literally going to have rats running around in little business suits.

She was going to have that as a motif that at Disney they keep giving her notes and they eventually pass and say, quote, this is too smart. And so she says, you want stupid? I'll show you fucking stupid like you've never seen. Okay. She also apparently worked on a movie called

a pyromaniac's love story, which does exist, a Billy Baldwin, John Leguizamo movie. I've never heard of that movie. What is that? Okay, great. Two initial sparks that set her onto Clueless. One, she wants to center. She's like, I'm so depressed, I want to make a movie about someone who's happy.

Like, why don't I just like focus on the optimist, you know, rather than like what I am? Like, let me try to sort of get that going. Amy Hickling looks like a Tim Burton drawing. If people don't have a visual in mind. Yes, she does. She's got dark hair and she's, you're right, she's very emo looking.

Yes. She has a meeting with Fox. For TV. Yeah, sure. And they're like, we want to do, like, a movie about cool people. No, it starts out as a TV show. The first Fox movie. I'm just saying, we want to do stuff about...

They were like, we keep getting pitched... Nerd stuff. Right. Like, because the nerds are cool right now. Like, Reality Bites has probably made... All grungy stuff. And they're like, please write us a TV show about cool kids, the in-crowd. And it was intended as a pilot at first. stuff and they're like, please write us a TV show about cool kids, the in crowd.

And it was intended as a pilot at first. She reads the 1925 novel Gentleman Preferred Blondes and she's sort of like, okay, blondes, right? Like the sort of the girl who everything works out for. She also said that when she started doing it, she was like, if that's what they want, I'll write it, but I'm going to make make it so mean and vicious and satirical. And then as she started writing it and getting in the headspace of it, kind of going back to the like, I wanna write something happy thing,

she was like, I kind of like this person now. Aw. Yes, she also, she watches old episodes of Gidget, which I've never seen, but Sally Field's sort of original starring role, and she's drawn to how much she likes Gidget, which I've never seen, but Sally Field's sort of original starring role, and she's drawn to how much she likes Gidget, another kind of sunny character. And Gidget, I think, has a lot of hardship, right? Like she's similar to Cher, who doesn't have much hardship, but her mom is gone, and she's just with her dad or whatever like that. I think she's borrowing that a little bit. I mean,

obviously, it's just in Emma as well. She's also apparently walking around Central Park with her friend Wallace Shawn. Her daughter's rollerblading ahead of him. Everyone's listening to grunge music and drinking Snapple, she says. And she starts thinking about a Clockwork Orange and James Cagney. Her favorites? And she says, I love these things and it's not the crime and the killing and those things that interest me, it's seeing individuals who are confident and energetic and happy. How did they get that way?

She's really in on, and she also loved Ed Wood, the Tim Burton movie, which is really, is about a really happy, charming guy as much as he's crazy. Well, it only comes out a couple months before this. It is more that the actual- No, it comes out a year before this. Ninety-four. But end of ninety-four. I'm just saying she claims she was inspired by the real-life figure, Edward,

and the Ted Tim Burton film, which came out two months before Clueless started shooting. That's all I got for you. Okay. Okay. And she loved Spicoli. She was like, I've never done Spicoli again from Fast Times. All right, but obviously the biggest influence is Emma, the Jane Austen novel. And when she rereads that, she realizes like, this is my protagonist. Like I need to just modernize this.

What I heard her say in one of these 2005 interviews is they pitched the show to Fox. Fox passes on it. Her other project, Sideline, she leaves her agent, gets new representation. They go like, what have you been working on? Let me read your recent stuff. She gives them the pilot script. They respond, why would you waste this on TV?

This should be a movie. Whereas now if I wrote a movie script, every studio would be like, this should be 10 episodes long. Yeah, but so then they said, can you come up with a movie off of this? And that's when she goes, what's the larger story if I'm making one thing,

connects to Emma, had read it, I think, fairly recently again, and was taken by how modern it seemed, and how many modern comedies are still kind of riffing on it. That Emma is confident and imaginative and, like, manipulative,, like felt so modern to her. Has anyone here read Emma? No. No. It's a good book.

And I highly recommend the Ramala Garry mini-series of Emma. I think that's the strongest adaptation of Emma in recent times. Obviously there's a Gwyneth movie which is pretty good. I've only ever seen Gwyneth, yeah. And there was the recent Anya Taylor Joy movie which I thought was also pretty good, kind of nailed the whole thing in Emma, which is not in Clueless, weirdly, is the moment where

she's awful to this sort of flibbertage of it. And Mr. Knightley, aka Josh says, that was badly done, Emma. And you're kind of, and she just like has an existential crisis. Like she gets too mean. It's so great. Gives me goosebumps. They don't do it in Clueless. She kind of has her realization in other ways.

Yeah. Ty is almost the one who gets mean. Yep, that's kind of the moment. But anyway, you'd already, right, the Gwyneth Paltrow, Emma has happened, or is about to happen. The Ang Lee sense and sensibility is around now. Like Jane Austen is getting kind of hot again.

Obviously, the big con for Pride and Prejudice is around now as well. And she just, look, it's obvious, but she's, you know... The town of Highbury becomes Beverly Hills. Carriages become cars. A ball becomes a dance. The village is the mall, right? She's like, this is easy. And she invents this slang for the movie that is largely made up, right? Yes.

Some stuff is real. She had a friend who was a teacher and he brought her into sit-in on classes. And she's like, I pulled a couple things, but it was more fun to actually just invent stuff. Right. For Christian, she comes up with his own, like Christian will speak like a Rat Pat character, she decides. Like, which is to me, one of the funniest bits in the movie that only the

dad calls him out on it. It's like, what is the matter with you? And, but everyone else, like, I mean, Bogan is real, right? But things like Betty and Baldwin and I don't know, like a lot of the stuff they say, she's just making up, I think. Yeah. It's funny that you guys are giving all this context because when I knew that I was gonna do this podcast about Clueless, and I knew the whole Emma part of it, but I just forgot.

And I was like, just thinking about Clueless and definitely did my own rewatch. And I was like, oh, I bet she was just kind of like, I just wanna do Fast Times again. I read like in my head, but like... I think it's just a little bit of that, I just want to do Fast Times again. I mean, like, in my head, but like... I think if there's a little bit of that, like, get back to that energy. But I was real lazy about it. I was just like,

I think she just wanted to do that again, and there was like, but you center on one character a little more, and there's a little more narration, that's it. So she has talked about that after Fast Times, she got offered, like, every teen movie script, and said, I don't want to do this. And I think felt a very deliberate, like, I don't want to do this. And I think felt a very deliberate, like I don't want to get stuck in here,

especially as a female director in Hollywood being like, if I keep making like female focused coming of age, sex relationship comedies, I'm never going to be able to make anything else. Right, I'll be stuck in a pigeonhole. That makes sense. So she does these immediate hard pivots into like Johnny Dangerously and European Vacation

to be like, look, I can make like boy comedies. Yeah. Then Look Who's Talking is her like strategic rebound from Two Flops. Have you seen Look Who's Talking? Yeah, but that one... Oh, I only saw that when I was like six to eight. European Vacation I recently saw again, which I watched a lot as a kid. And I was wondering, I'm glad you said that was a flop

because I'm like, this feels like a flop. I had never seen before and I like it a lot, but it is a weird, angry, mean movie. And it's so brown. Like the color tones, I'm just so used to her movies being so bright. And it also makes me not want to go to Europe at all I'm like it's like looking at a bowl of beans like very damp and kind of gray

Oranges I'm like what is going on? I like about it is that it's a movie where everyone is awful. Everyone is pissed off in my movie But Johnny Dangerously was a complete flop European Vacation was basically a hit on the good will of the first movie. But everyone involved had a bad time. Everyone had a bad time. Everyone talks shit talks that movie, including her, it was miserable. And Christmas Vacation is such a course correction of like,

we have to not do that again. Let's get back to this. And become so much brighter and sunnier. And then Look Who's Talking is like, I need a hit. I come up with this talking baby hook. But then ends up making this movie that's like weirdly personal to her. Does the sequel. She's talked about that I think by the time

Fox reaches out to her and is like, could you develop a TV show for us? Like, a decade had passed and I think she was like, do I, is it time to stop running away from the Fast Times thing? It was less her being like, it's time to me to do this again because it was successful. But I do think she said,

like, Spicoli is absolutely ten years into my career, the thing I've created that has lasted the longest, that has had the greatest impact. Like, whatever we synthesize in Spicoli is infectious and has stayed and has this kind of, like, can I build the whole movie out of Spicoli thing? I... I mean, I want to base my life around Spicoli sometimes. Like, obviously when you're a kid and you see Spicoli,

I just needed to take a left Spicoli turn. But like, when you see him as a kid, it's like funny and duh, and it just has stuck around for years. It's iconic, iconic. And then as an adult, whenever I watch that performance, I'm like, he's not even pushing it that much. Like it is so grounded. It's very grounded.

And I'm like, what? Cause you look at it and it looks like a joke. But then there's also just like, He just seems kind of zen too though. I was just saying, you're just like, he's having a good time. There's such a sense to him of like, this guy has it figured out.

Yes. Like when Mr. Hands asks him why he's late, and he's like, I just couldn't make it. Like, it's just so, that's so real. It's like everyone else would lie, and he's like, I just couldn't make it on time. Almost amazing that Travis is in this movie, because he is a spicoli type,

and yet I feel like they find a gentler or like kind of like a slightly different energy. Here's another thing she said when she's like reading the book and trying to figure out like who are the equivalent? What are the modern-day equivalents to the social types in this book, right? And she's like this guy would be a stoner. Yes, but can I do stoner again? Like didn't want to do it because of Spicoli. Right. said, like, it's the only thing that maps properly with the worldview, and I just have to figure out a way to make it different. Because again, right, she's like,

I don't want Cher to be looking down on people for really kind of nasty reasons. But like, that he's just kind of a burnout, it does make sense. And she'd be like, yeah, he's amusing, but like, we don't take that guy seriously. She's never the worst to him. Right. I don't want that guy seriously. She's never the worst to him.

Right. I don't want to be looking down on Cher. And it's why the title is so good, where you're like, the fatal flaw of this character is that she just kinda doesn't get it. In the book, Robert Martin, that character, is like a farmer. And the idea is that she's telling Harriet, like, you can't marry him because he's too, like, basically, like, you're not gonna jump the ladder, right? And she's got to realize that she's got to stop caring about status so much.

But yeah, he's an amazing, and Breckenmire is so funny in this movie. He's so sweet. He's so sweet. I feel like, I'm gonna paraphrase this probably very poorly, but I remember reading some interview that you did years ago, Heidi, where you talked about how your main driving force is trying to figure out how much emotional realism you can put into sketch comedy.

Does this sound correct? Yeah, yeah. To something you've said, just like, what is the most real, visceral, and perhaps unsettling emotion I can load into sketch comedy. And I feel like it is a thing that Amy Heckerling is so good at. Not that this movie has high drama in it,

but like the same with the Spicoli thing of like, what is so funny about Spicoli is that he feels like a real person. Yes. And same with the Clueless characters, where like this is a movie where everyone is pitched at Spicoli level, whereas the miracle of Fast Times characters were like, this is a movie where everyone is pitched at Spicoli level. Whereas the miracle of Fast Times is that, like, it is able to simultaneously hold Spicoli and an abortion scene. And Jennifer Jason Leigh is playing really naturalistic and grounded.

This is a movie that takes place entirely in a cartoon world. With, like, perfect timing and everyone knows the right thing to say at every moment. And yet, every character feels like a real person with a real inner life and like hopes and dreams and feelings. 100%. Like, and shout out to Travis Breckenmire in that, because, you know, he does that speech where he does the acceptance speech for Tardys. So funny. And it's so funny, but it's even as someone who would love a role like that, I'm like, I don't know if I could pull that off. You know, but it does feel so real. It feels really real.

He made it so real, like the way he thanks McDonald. With that, which I would never be tardy. I mean, Ben, this is a character who probably speaks to you in a little bit, right? I'm not trying to call you out. Yeah. He's into Marvin the Martian. I was definitely in the stoner clique in high school.

Ben does a pretty good Marvin the Martian too. Oh. Um. Ooh. I mean, even that moment where they're flipping through Ty's drawings, and they're just geeking out on Marvin the Martian and all their little drawings.

And it's almost because of little moments like that where you are like, oh, these are real people. They're doing such a good job. And seeing those off moments, like, it all just fuels the monologues that, yeah. But I like that he goes through a change too. I like that he gets kind of dunked on

for being a stoner and has that realization of like, I should be better, right? Like, I don't need to fall into this clique per se. And I love to see that change in the character. Yeah, it's like, right. The thing they do rather than make it a class thing is like, this guy is lacking in ambition. Because his priority is getting stoned all the time.

And at the end of the movie, it's not like he shows up wearing a suit and tie and he's like hello. I'm here to talk business It's just like this guy's gotten a little more focused. He starts taking his skateboarding more seriously Yeah, which we love to see. I also love that they have this meet-cute and immediately you're like they have great chemistry And these two characters should be together. Right like any every 20 minutes they interact a little bit And you're like yeah They still have every moment is so good and share is just like no, absolutely not This does not follow the rules he Brecken meyers and Alicia Silverstone both went to Beverly Hills High Which is obviously like one of the schools that this is based on and he said he read the script and was like I can't play

This guy these are the guys who used to beat me up in high school That he was like I was the guy the stoners picked on. Whoa. Shrek and Meyer's so cute. He's so cute, but I was just sort of... I still think he should be in Shrek 5 and he should change his name to Shrek and Meyer. I think you should think about that. You have had that change.org petition up for about a decade now.

He seems great. What's he up to recently? I have not... He writes for Robot Chicken? Yeah, I know he's in the Robot Chicken world. Yeah. I guess that's what he's mostly doing. You know what's great too, and I've learned this the hard way in comedy, falling on my face a lot,

and I get this note a lot from producers and Lauren, is that I see it with Travis, it's like, even if you're a loser or a stoner, like, you gotta play it joyful in comedy. Like, you can't make the audience sad. Or they... And sometimes it works, but, like, for the most part, it's like, if you're... They're like, fine, play a loser,

but love that you're a loser. You know, like, he's loving his parties. He's loving that he's getting called out about it. And, you know, there have been a few times, like, in a sketch or something, I'll just offhandedly, like, you know, mention, like mention my crippling debt or something. And Lauren, one of my producers, is like, why? Why that?

And I'm like, because it's funny. Because when I was a kid, that did happen. You have to laugh at it, but it's like, it is also sad to maybe talk about it in therapy. You know, so that also. I mean, I like sad comedy. Yes, me too. But he is, he's like the quiet MVP of the movie for me.

Yeah, same. And it speaks to the fact that he is, he's like the quiet MVP of the movie for me. Yeah, same. And it speaks to like the fact that he is also coming at it from the same angle as Amy Heckerling of like these were the kids I like stood against in high school. And now I'm trying to understand their point of view in a positive way. Which is kind of, you know, I went to an all-girls Catholic high school and I was not a stoner. And I don't even know that there was like a lunch table full of stoners, but I do know certain girls that I knew smoked weed and like, and that there were this group of guys

that did too, that, you know, they'd hang out with them in the weekend. And I think I was just, it wasn't necessarily that any of them were mean. They also, they just seemed like a level up. Yeah, yeah. Like they're a little more mature. Yeah, but they would've been, like if you came to the party, it's like, hey, what's up? But then if you're like, oh, I don't want that,

it's like, okay, she's not chill. Cher's whole thing in this where she's like to tie, like you gotta stop doing drugs. That's like not the thing that like successful people do. But it's okay to get laced at a party. Yeah. She's not anti-drugs. She's just kinda anti-drugs all the time.

Yes. But I absolutely had that attitude in high school without wanting to be a narc because I was scared of doing drugs. Yes. Oh sure, you were like, you guys do what you want. I just don't wanna be involved. Yeah, I just actually like retaining my brain cells.

Like I had that. Oh you did, I bet you did right which I think is similarly coming out of this like fear Oh, yeah, that seems like an intense thing that I'm not ready for and so what now you remember your life That must be nice You were just stressed out. Anyway, that's all you're remembering. Look the advice is not good, by the way I just want to interject and say smoking weed at a party when you don't smoke weed is the worst idea. Yeah, you're just going to have a shitty time. You just immediately get in your head and feel like, what?

It's overstimulated. Yeah. Although she takes one drag and kind of just mingles. She sure handles most things with aplomb. God bless her. She does get her ass to the valley and like, you know. She's that person, she doesn't struggle really. She doesn't have adversity in her life.

She shows up to that party in a really, really expensive dress and she somehow doesn't stick out or whatever. What is the credit card bill that her father is paying monthly? Do we want to try and guess? Look, here's my bigger, here's my bigger dress. And we got to talk about it. Wow, good one. I have a list of some of my favorite.

We can get into it. Well, I do have that, but just more like looks and like style. Ben is getting into fashion. I've only recently heard a lie. I thought it was a new designer. So then when I did the Clueless Rewatch, I was like, oh damn, Alaya's been around. Expensive for a while.

How much would that cost? That Alaya dress at that time? I mean, thousands, tens of thousands of dollars. Here's my question. Is Mel a good dad? Because on the one hand, he's got a bit of a spoiled child who seems to get whatever she wants. We live in a mansion.

Who drives without a license. Right. He's a workaholic. He yells at everybody. But at the same time, he seems to have raised a relatively sort of emotionally centered kid, like, given all of this. Like, she's got a good heart, you know?

Like, and he kind of, like, they have enough moments together that you're kind of like, I think he's a little responsible for this. The mom's obviously, she never knew her mom. It's just an interesting question. He feels present to me. Yes, he is, right. Like, he's a workaholic, but a lot of that work we see on site. He's at home.

Like, he's doing it at home. For me, it... Seeing their relationship always felt like a dream scenario, especially when they bring home the, like, takeout, which... It just... I'm like, this kind of seems cool. Dad's working a lot. I get to help. I get to highlight some numbers. Exactly. She's pitching in.

Like, he's trying to instill some sort of work ethic. But, yeah, that's part of it. Look, he's successful in doing that he's trying to instill some sort of work ethic. But that's part of it. He's successful in doing that and also the journey of this movie is her understanding why to do things for other people. Yes. But very early on she is concerned, as much as she is self-centered. She's trying to get him to drink his juice. Yeah, we see that early. You know, this is what I'm saying, like it's the balance she strikes here is impossible.

Yes. In most movies, you just make the dad more of a hard ass or more of a comical, right? And she just does enough to make their relationship feel very, like, grounded despite how cartoonish she is. Yeah. You know what they said, which I thought was really interesting?

She was basically legally emancipated at 15, I think. Alicia Silverstone? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So by the time they filmed this movie, she's 17, but she's been emancipated and working for like two years. She's done the trilogy of Aerosmith videos, and she did The Crush, which was her one other. That's her first big movie, yes.

And this is also just, I feel like, Seth Rogen did an interview recently when he was promoting the studio Talking about how much the industry has changed in the last 20 years And he said the way it used to work is we could write a script like super bad and the studios would read it And if they thought it was funny, they would option it and green light it and then go now. Who do we cast? If the script was good, then you figure out who you can get if if you can get a name, you get a name, and then maybe the budget goes up. But if not, they've already committed to making it.

We'll get Unknown Stars or Rising Stars, and we'll make it for cheaper. And this was a similar thing, where just to complete the arc of it, her new reps read it, tell her to write it as a full feature script. It's set up at Fox. It's being developed at Fox for a while. Then her and Twin Caplan have said there were a rash of movies that were seen as dumb comedies about stupid people that flopped.

I think a lot of... Airheads is the big one. Airheads and PCU? PCU, but the big roadblock, Amy Heckerling says, is that there was a movie called Airheads that didn't do very well. Now, we all know Airheads, a funny movie. And so the movie being called Clueless was hurting it. That is until Scott Rudin...

Yes. The King of Strangies. Olympic phone thrower Scott Rudin gets his hand on the script. He had just produced The Addams Family. He also produced The Firm. And the minute he gets his hand on the script script there's a bidding war. She's like, nothing had changed about the project at all. But his involvement just gets... Fox drops it, puts it in turn around, he reads it, says this is good and then everyone bids against it competitively. Paramount, she's thrilled with because she's like they own MTV and Nickelodeon. They have

like the distribution systems to promote this to the audience we need to get to. But then immediately is like, I want to cast Alicia Silverstone. I think she had Alicia Silverstone in mind even when it was set up at Fox. Yes, she always wanted the crush girl slash the Aerosmith girl. And was like, you know, she's untested as a movie star. And yet they were just like, she's kind of buzzy. Fox wanted Reese Witherspoon or Angelina Jolie.

Crazy to think about. Uh, Heckerling was dead set on her. Uh, Alicia Witt apparently, red and came close. Tiffany Thieson coming off of Saved by the Bell. Carrie Russell was considered for this role. Uh, there was another girl that they were like, you gotta go see this girl, she's in this movie called Flesh and Bone, Gwyneth Paltrow.

Heckerling didn't get around to seeing it. Josh was a nightmare to cast. Adam Horowitz was her first choice. Beastie Joy. That kinda makes sense. Yeah, totally. Ben Affleck was, I mean, it's just these names where you're like, Jesus, all these guys

are just floating around. What's crazy about it too is sometimes you read about these, like, casting what-ifs and you're like, bullet dodged. They ended up with the only person who could have played this. I think they landed on the best cast possible, and yet you read the alternates and it speaks to, like, a generation of talent bubbling. Totally.

Where you're like, Chappelle was like number two for Murray. Right. You know, they're all these... Yeah, you could... They could all work. But she's 17 when they filmed this and Heckerling and Kaplan said like, when she got on set and just started on the first day,

she so immediately had it and she was bringing the missing piece that we couldn't have written, which was there was an innocence to her and a childlike quality to her, and like a guilelessness, that just came out of her actually being that young. And like the Haitians thing was actually just her mispronouncing that word. And she went to the crew and was like, no one correct her.

We couldn't have planned this better. It says so much about the character, and she's nail nailing this monologue no one make herself conscious about it. She rocks. Also considered, okay, whatever. Brittany Murphy is brought in very early and she is just like Ty. Right? Like that's just such a natural performance. She's so good. We all love Brittany Murphy, obviously. Dan Hedea, she wanted Harvey Keitel, but he was too expensive. But that's the vibe she was going for. She saw Blood Simple and was like, that guy. Lauren Hill was the first choice for Dion or was it the one that Stacey Dash beat out? Stacey Dash

is very good in this movie. Famously 29 years old. She is. She does read older too. But I just like that she's meaner, but not too mean. Yeah. If that makes sense. And like that she's kind of like, all right, Cher. You know, like when Cher wants to do something nice. And then she's like, eh, this is kind of fun.

But like, she's not that nice, but she's nice enough. She feels grown up though. Yes. Twin Kaplan, who I keep on referencing, who plays Miss Geist, She's also her producer. was the associate producer and is like Heckerling's one of her closest collaborators. She said this thing that I've never considered before.

Sarah Michelle Geller was the runner-up for Amber. Yes. Oh. Sorry. Just the names. That just makes a lot of sense of, I think, a thing I love about teen movies, is she was like, the great thing about making teen movies is you get to cast new people who are so full of energy and so eager to prove themselves. If you have a cast of like 20 teenagers,

you're getting all these people who are like just trying to make their mark and they show up to set with so much energy and so much like creativity and so many ideas. And want to bond too. And get that energy all together. You just wanna make friends and then you, and so much creativity and so many ideas. And want to bond too, because at that age, you just want to make friends, and then you, you know, people in their 30s and 40s are just kind of like,

I need my alone time. Right, no one's throwing around weight. And you like watch all this fucking like B-roll behind the scenes footage they have, and it's just everyone doing bits. Yeah, it's camp. In between takes, which then feeds into the energy. DP Bill Pope, the great Bill Pope,

one of the greatest cinematographers alive. Who does the Matrix trilogy and Spider-Man 2 and Army of Darkness. He says this is the most fun he ever had making a movie. Like, and then they had no money and he had to do lots of sort of innovative stuff, which is often true with him. That's him making Bound around the same time.

And he says, if we'd had more money, we would have fucked this movie up. We would have shot ourselves in the foot somehow. He meets with her and says, how do you want this movie to look? And she said, happy. And he said, what does happy mean? And she said, you know, like happy.

And so he went through and got like a reference book full of photos of things that he thought captured happiness and brought this giant book to her and laid it all out. And she was like, happy, not happy, happy. And he was like, truly, as much as that sounds vague, by the end of it, I had a completely solid idea. I was able to look at the commonalities because she was throwing something out, which is like, I know how I want it to feel.

So now let's figure out, let's reverse engineer what creates the kind of imagery that conveys that feeling. Yeah, because I, you know, growing up in the Midwest, even watching Clueless now and seeing the way they dress and the hats and, you know, I was watching a lot of movies, TV, I loved Saved by the Bell. Yep. But it makes me, I'd never seen something that looked like that. I'd seen cool girls before, cool guys,

but stylistically, it's different. And so I am like, wait, is that what people look like in Beverly Hills? Or did someone just nail that aspirational element in a way that... I think so. It's the same as the language where it's like, she took like 10% inspiration from the real world. She like heightened it by 90% comedically and put her own spin on it. But then it impacted the culture in a way where then it did become the thing. Yeah.

Like, there's this odd sort of, like, she came up with this warped version of what was actually going on that then became the model that everyone copied. But you're... Incredible. You're right, Heidi, that this does feel like science fiction. In a way. Like, Fast Time's the original one.

How you watch it now and you're like, oh, I love this aesthetic, I love their clothes. But half of this feels like a documentary. Yeah, 100%. And this, you're just like, they are space aliens. They are. Yes, especially Cher and Dion. Especially Dion. Like, that last scene at the wedding when Dion has the flowers in her hair. You know, they just figure out a new...

It's just so colorful. It is. Cher has like 55 outfits in this movie. That rocks. The costume budget was $200,000. It should have gotten an Academy Award nomination. It's one of the classic examples of when the Oscars don't recognize contemporary costume design.

Yes. Every look in this movie is astonishing. Even like the boys. You know how the boys all have a very specific look, like Elton with his big baggy sweaters. But also the Elton at prom. He's like got, he almost looks like a vampire. He's got puffy sleeves.

And I got just clocked that recently where I was like, wait, and I can't remember. My foot hurts. Can I go to the bathroom? Can I go to the bathroom? It's Elton and I can't remember. I think he's dancing with Amber at that point. But their looks, it's low key, you're seeing it like far away, but I'm like, wait, those looks too, and it's different.

It's like he was wearing a hoodie and now he's interviewing the vampire. It's like, who did this? This is genius. There's one outfit that Amber has, this one. Oh, God, it's these outfits that you glimpse for like two seconds, where she's got like a sort of stewardess uniform, but there's like a gold dollar sign on the hat. The costume designer said, and can you call out her name? Mona May, I think is her name.

Yeah, let me look it up. Said that the game for Amber was that all of her outfits are themed. Mona May, yeah. Right, right, right. Amber's maybe trying a little too hard in a way. Which I can totally tell, and it's great, and so camp. But recently watching it again, there's one outfit she has, I think it's during like maybe the debate scene or it's a classroom scene.

She has a black sweater on, just a black tank. On the sleeves, there's like furry cuffs on the sleeves. And like she kind of walks past, I only see a little of her bottoms. And I was like, are those jeans? And I was shocked to see Amber in jeans. But it was like the most like just understated outfit. But it was, I was almost like,

oh, I want to wear that outfit now. It's like, but it was just like, I'm like, well, why did you even decide she gets jeans? It looks so cool. But everything in this movie feels like so thought through and deliberate in that way. Yes. I'm like, there's a reason for the jeans.

And the reason is the outfit looks great, but I'm just still shocked because it's Amber. Is Cher's yellow sort of tartan like suit, skirt, like is that her, the most iconic look in Clueless? Like, it's a tough debate. There's the red plaid. That's really good. Matching outfit.

Yeah. Ty has some amazing looks in this. And I like that the looks Cher finds for Ty are not the looks Cher would wear. Like, that's how much of an eye Cher has. She can dress anybody. Like, she's like preppy but still grunge. Right, she knows how to find Ty's niche.

Right, yeah. This is why I also go back to... Danhadea has raised Cher well because she's not trying to impose her world on everyone else. Yes. She is trying the best that she can to help other people in the way they want to be helped. She's spoiled, but I almost feel like it's in a good way. Like, he calls her out for the traffic tickets, but like any teenager, she's still gonna...

Ticket is the first notice. Yeah, she's still gonna go drive. But she is going home and getting called out for these things, you know? Like, he's... Yes, she's spoiled in that she has whatever clothes she wants. But she doesn't seem, like, she's required certainly to, like, get good grades and kind of, like, do her work well. The joke of any time there's, like, a cutscene and then she has a new shopping bag.

It just, they hit that over and over again. And it's funny every single time. I'm not the same size. And he has to spoil, like, if you really think about it, he lost his wife. Like, this is only... Yeah, like, you gotta spoil your baby girl. He's recently divorced.

With clothes. Yes. Yes. I also like that... I mean, again, this is what happens when you watch Cher, clueless a thousand times. When Josh's mom calls looking for him, a character we never meet, who is just whatever, the lady that, right, Hideo was married to for a few years. She likes Cher.

Divorce lives, not children. She's like, okay, sweetie, I'll see you later. Everybody likes Cher, right? Like, you know, Cher would be a good stepdaughter to have. It's clear, like, Cher was, like, not a pain about having a stepmom or whatever. I think another rookie mistake would be to have Josh and Cher hate each other until the end. Sure.

Yeah. And instead, it's like Josh makes some jokes at her expense, but he clearly respects her, and it's what makes the moment of him standing up and being like, she's not dumb, so affecting, is he knows that and has always known that. It's not a thing he's learned. It's very easy to sort of like, make the superficial jokes about her. But he loves when she's able to call out the polonius thing.

Polognus moment, so good. Right, and she like, is able to make fun of him for being boring, but she thinks he's smart. She doesn't dislike him ever. No, why does he keep coming over there? Yeah, yeah. Hang out with Mel? boring, but she thinks he's smart. She doesn't dislike him ever. No. No, why does he keep coming over there? Yeah, yeah. He's like, hang out with Mel? Come on.

But also, it is a mansion. It's a mansion, and he can sit by the pool. But I love that he sits by the pool in long sleeves to read Nietzsche. Yes. Go in the pool. Go ahead. You said we never see his mom.

I think we actually see her once. OK, where? At the wedding? Or where? I think that woman who's sitting next to him when Cher's walking down the aisle and smiles at him. There's a woman who, like, gives him a look like something's changed. And I'm like, and it doesn't make sense

that Josh's mom would be at Mrs. Guy's wedding. Well, who knows? It's a small, look, Beverly Hills is small, right? Like, as much as all the famous. It also doesn't necessarily make sense the wedding would happen in Cher's backyard. But you're like, yeah, it's a tight-knit community. And Cher has kind of taken control of Miss Geist's life.

And you have to imagine that, like, Cher would invite her. True. Yeah, I want your mom to come. Right, in the name of, like, let's everyone be friendly. Yes. Yeah, well, the mom to come right in the name of like let's everyone be friendly. Yeah Yeah, well I the impression I get is that the the her dad broke up with the mom because he's a workaholic Right. They probably didn't even dislike each other. They probably just never saw each other Yes, because they're both divorced from they both have for not to what we know. They love kids already and yeah, yeah

Ben what's up Griff America loves tracker the show track CBS is tracker yeah Justin Hartley is tracker it's impressive Holter Shaw lone wolf survivalist with extensive tracking skills who travels the country as a rewardist my man just picks up a little bit of dirt and he could like figure out where somebody going. He tracks things. And why are we all staying glued to the tube watching tracker week after week? Because we want to see what kind of awesome adventures he gets into. Wish fulfillment. We're living out our dream lives. We all wish we could track the way that

he does. Because I know I have a hard time tracking where my money goes jeez you're telling me I'm a mess yeah I can keep track of this thing and I own it until I give it away in exchange for goods or services I truly don't know what's coming in what's coming out I'm dining out I'm eating food I'm putting food in my system I'm handing money out of my wallet over to a restaurant. And I go, where did that dang stuff go? No idea.

Not to mention food delivery, online shopping, retail therapy, ever heard of it? Ben, you get some packages delivered to the office. I do get a lot of packages, you know, and I got to tell you, truly, if I was charged twice, I wouldn't even know it and here's the thing I do sometimes okay. Yeah, I order clothes they come to my home I wear them then I call up a ride share service which takes me to a restaurant Where I pay money food and then go out and see an expensive concert Yeah, I hear it.

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Booking.com, Booking.yeah. Book today on the site or in the app. Clueless. So Clueless begins with a great montage set to Kids in America. This movie has a banging soundtrack, obviously, like kind of like Fast Times where she just like picks stuff of the moment that's really, really good. Although a thing I think that's smart is, Fast Times Time she's obviously like closer to that age, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's getting older.

And she's clearly picking music that she likes to make the kids about as hip as she is. She knows she's getting older here and so half the soundtrack is cool, modern covers of songs that Amy Heckerling likes. You know? Like she's doing a lot of like covers of 70s and 80s songs and then stuff like Radiohead. There's Radiohead, there's the Mighty Mighty Boss Tone. It appears in the movie. Cameo. I always loved about the Mighty Mighty Boss Tones

that they had a dancing man. Yeah, you gotta have a dancing man. I mean, it's kind of, it's definitely a thing in the ska scene. Every time I watch it, I get confused and I think it's gonna be the Never Knock On Wood song, which I know isn't Boss Tones, but sounds so much like it. Do you know what song I'm talking about? Uh, that, I think that is the one.

I'm not sure it's that. It's called The Impression That I Get. Okay. But it's not the song in this movie. No, they're singing Where Do You Go. Boss Tones having a real specific sound. Did you ever hear the ska phase, Ben? Unfortunately, yes. You did? Oh, how long?

Did you like the Bostons? What are other ska bands? I would say the big one for me, I mean, there's all the British stuff, which is great, but there was Catch 22, which is a Jersey band, and I went to see them a couple of times. Did you have a real big fish, Ben? I did. Less Than Jake, The Toasters.

I mean, there was so much Less than Jake, the toasters. I mean, there was so much of, like, the mid-'90s into the aughts of just, I think they called it third wave ska. Ska is one of those things that someone had to explain to me what it was. Suicide machines. Yeah, sure. Can I ask a ska if these are considered ska? Because now, no doubt, it's kind of ska.

Or they began as ska. They began as ska. So I went to a No Doubt concert, and there were three bands on the bill, and I was just lucky to see No Doubt. But then it was The Urge and 311. Would you say those two are... So 311 are kind of like a jam band, right?

Or are they not? Aren't they like fish adjacent? They don't have enough brass, I think, in their salt and grace to be. It is that brass. You gotta have brass. According to Wikipedia, the Urge combines several genres, hardcore punk, ska, reggae, funk. Sounds like they're in that world. Yeah.

Okay. 311, I think, is maybe like reggae more. Yeah. I don't know. Okay. I see how it all came together, but I've always wondered, was I at a Pyrrhus Goss show? I don't think I was. I did clock that in the first 90 seconds of this movie,

I paused it at 90 seconds to check the runtime. There are three different needle drops in the first 90 seconds. Kids in America, I don't know what else. Fashion by David Bowie plays for like 20 seconds. Wow. Right, because that's during her... Right, we see her life. She has a perfect life.

It looks like a Noxzema commercial or whatever her joke is. But, you know, she's got her computer that sorts her clothes for her. She's got her daddy, who she's giving orange juice to. The computer is so sick. The computerized closet was a big... Right, September of that year, when all the girls come back from summer break and have watched Clueless, it had become the greatest aspiration.

Computerized closet... Does such a thing exist? That actually feels like science fiction. Richie Rich has McDonald's in his house as the number one cool thing you could have. And some girl got it, I'm sure. Some girl got it. I love the joke that she and Deanna

are both named after great singers of the past who now do infomercials. So some of those jokes my mom had to explain to me, right? She's like laughing so hard and I'm like, what are you, who's Dion? What are you talking about? And she would just, and I think this was just important building me up as the well-rounded person that I am today.

You know what I mean? I love that you would even ask or had a parent that would explain. I just laughed at everything and never asked. Like in planes trains where his hands between two pillows. I just didn't get that until maybe a year ago. Like really didn't. Really is good though.

I was still laughing at what I thought I was laughing at. You just weren't thinking about it. I didn't think butt cheeks. I just didn't go anywhere near it. I have a very distinct memory of going to see something about Mary with my dad. And the hair gel scene happens with the comb on the ear. And my dad's laughing hysterically. And I said, what is that?

And through tears he went, I don't know. Just didn't want to have to explain it to me in the moment. And through tears he went, I don't know. Just didn't want to have to explain it to me in the moment. And pretended that he, I went, why are you laughing? He went, I don't know, I just, I don't know what it is. Pay attention to the, just watch the movie. And I was sitting there doing the math and I was like, what are things I've heard people talk about that are inappropriate that I haven't seen yet?

And I had the very distinct thought, I guess that must be a condom. That's my memory. It's sitting there at like eight or whatever. So I'm about to marry him being like, a condom must be goo. Oh, man. So Cher goes to school with Dion, and she's rich, and Dion Dion is rich and Dion is dating Murray

and... Faison's so good. So good. He's so... Every second of that guy is funny. Yeah. There should be more, honestly. He's always funny.

Yeah. He's always funny. He's always funny. And he kind of is like Paul Rudd and all these other guys where I'm like, he also aged superbly. Oh, he has aged incredibly. He looks the fucking same like now basically. He's so good. Here's another interesting thing.

Because I'm keeping it real. My favorite is when he's like shaving his head because he's keeping it real. His hair is barely changed. I know. So many of you- And she's so mad. She's so mad. I have to clock in my head every time. I'm like is it that much of a change? No, not at all. I have to clock in my head every time I'm like is it that much of a change?

So many of these 90s Studio comedy guys end up in the robot chicken sphere because of Seth Green obviously Uh-huh, yeah, and he was similar I think like doing voices for whatever and then he got really interested in the art of stop-motion He does his own stop-motion phase If you follow Faison on Instagram, he just posts like 20 second social media stop motion tests. He fully went and worked at Stupid Buddy Studios where they do robot chicken. I think he interned there. This guy just seems lovely.

He's always funny. It's like how Ken Griffey Jr. now is a sports photographer. He just photographed long lines at the Masters. He was like an accredited photographer. It's not like he's doing it for fun. Like he was in the photo pool. But it's so cool. To your point, the fact that this guy was just like,

this is really cool, can I intern here? Like, I want to learn this the right way. He's done everything, right? Right, he doesn't... There's nothing else he needs to do. He's also in the amazing movie, Uptown Girls, starring Brittany Murphy. He's in Josie and the Pussycats. Well, yeah, Desorme in French.

Which we've covered, obviously. With Breckenmire's. He also hosts a podcast with Zach Braff. Interesting, and are they watching all the episodes of Scrubs on that one? No, we're like they're watching all episodes of Friends. That would be funny. Yeah.

You know what? Yeah, exactly. We're like, we like Frasier. We're just gonna recap Frasier. Fuck you. You don't get to learn anything about Scrubs. No behind the scenes tales for you. So, okay. So yeah, what I had to do the plot of Clueless. It's a pretty gentle movie. Cher, yeah, she's got Josh. We've already sort of laid out all the set up here. I love in high school movies where they establish the rules of the world and the cliques and go through and show everyone, the stoner kids. I just, I always love how these movies have that in the beginning.

And just, it's like an important thing, I think, as a kid to see. Another thing I love about high school movies is like the ensemble ecosystem, where you sort of have these feelings of like, this is another thing we lose when studios stop making theatrical comedies, right? Which is like, comedy's made with a proper budget and a proper scale where you're able to build full sets or like get good locations and have like 25 primary actors on set every day.

Not like we have to shoot this person out in four days because they're only in three scenes. Everyone's in the background of every sequence. Like you're constantly feeling like there is a cohesive world to all these clicks bouncing off each other, even when the guy's not the focus of this sequence. Like, you're constantly feeling like there is a cohesive world to all these clicks bouncing off each other. Even when the guy's not the focus of this shot, you're seeing Faison in the background. He's there.

I mean, anytime someone tells me, like, oh, the whole movie takes place in a car, I'm like, bummer. Right. Let's go places. I mean, maybe it has worked in some way, but I'm like, yeah, let's go places and meet a bunch of people and like... Yeah.

Ty doesn't enter for the first 15, 20 minutes. The first 20 minutes isn't at her. It's her getting the bad report card. Getting the bad grade in debate from Wallace Shawn and embarking on the setup between Twin Caplan and Wallace Shawn. And then having the moment of self-realization of, I feel good that I made other people happy. It's not just that I did it to get my grade up.

I'm thrilled by the connection I forged. They are so cute. Old people can be so cute, as they say. I love that they established that they're students, but it's not a typical teacher-student relationship, where it feels a little bit like they don't have to take school that seriously. They're not like bad kids necessarily. There's just this nuance there that I've really picked up. It's the way they're all sitting differently in their chairs.

This is the part of this movie that watching it last night finally hit for me of like, this is too close to home. Oh, see, it is. I did not go to Beverly Hills High, but I went to like the weirdo fucking New York, liberal artsy rich kid version of that. Where I... It was in that scene in particular, I was like, oh, right, this is the thing that I'm so grossed out by. Looking back at my own high school is like,

all the kids felt too empowered. And when Ty has the line was like, oh, right, this is the thing that I'm so grossed out by looking back at my own high school is like all the kids felt too empowered. And when Ty has the line about like, all of you speak like grownups, all my high school classes were everyone being like, okay, whatever you say, Mr. Blank. We're all equals here. And yet the teachers, they have to kind of accept it. That's just what the vibe is.

Well, it's just me being like, I left my cranberry CD, can I get a pass? Like the gym practice where Cher just gives the speech about like, this is not like enough athletic and she's like, okay. And she just goes back. What's the combination of like all these kids have clearly been very empowered and supported by their parents. And also because they're in like an actual hub of culture, they're like, we're not cool for high school, we're cool in the real world. We are wearing actual top designer fashions.

We're going to the actual cool concerts. They don't hear no a lot. Right. Right. No, they're not hearing, you're right. Um, so then yeah, like the first thing is Walsh and Twin Caplan, Walsh on King of the 90s, you know, comedy, right? I mean...

Come in! But you see this arc of her, like, I can finesse all my grades up and everyone else, she has a better angle, but this guy she can't fucking talk around. She has to change something in his life to change his point of view. Yes. Which is another great Hedaya thing that he's, I mean, it's when he says, like, I couldn't be prouder than if you actually got good grades. That he has raised her to understand how to, like, argue her way into things. Yeah. Yes. But right, Cher's first real moment of altruism is adopting Ty, which Dion is against,

because Dion's like, this will hurt our social stock, and Cher is like willing to take the hit. But she comes out of the guys thing being like, I wanna do more of this. She's still doing it in a somewhat self-serving way of like, what makes her feel good is making other people cool. It is the thing she feels the most confident in. I know how to like train someone.

I can do a mini My Fair Lady on anybody, which makes me feel powerful. And there's enough compassion that she's trying to do it their way. I can train someone, I can do a mini My Fair Lady on anybody, which makes me feel powerful. And there's enough compassion that she's trying to do it their way. She's not dressing Miss Geist like herself. She's not dressing Ty like herself. But it still is a reflection of, look how hip I am. Totally.

And Josh is sort of impressed with it too, when he watches them doing buns of steel together, he recognizes that she is sort of, that she means well. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, and, uh, God, he's so cute. Everyone's so cute.

Everything's so colorful. I just have the movie on right now. Paul Rudd is my number one go-to. That's what I wish I looked like guy. Uh, sure. Yeah. Any, any era of Paul Rudd? Basically, yeah.

When's he hottest? When's he hottest? I kind of like every look. I've invoked this before in the podcast, but I had a gay friend be like, you're not like queer at all. And I was like, no. And he was like, like, if you had to sleep with one guy, who would it be? And I said Paul Rudd, he went, fuck, you are straight.

That's so straight. That's the straightest answer I've ever heard. But when I look at him, I'm like, God, that's the best a guy can look. And I think part of it is also that he's so funny. And I'm like, I wish that is, I wish I could perform the exact same way as him. I wish I moved like him. I think, so even Mean Girls, which is sort of the clueless of the next generation, right? Which is a good movie, right? Has a little more stakes to it, I guess, in the sort of the Clueless of the next generation, right? Which is a good movie, right? Has a little more stakes to it,

I guess, in the sort of popularity, unpopularity thing. Clueless doesn't have a... There's no real villain. There's no real threat to their existence in any way. It's a journey. The worst thing that happens to her is Ty gets a little more popular than her, and she's kind of like, I don't know what to do about that. And then she gets, like, held at gunpoint,

but the stakes of the movie are self-realization. But that guy's so sweet. He's not gonna shoot her. The way he says thank you when he runs off. I'm always so shocked when a movie can figure that out, where it's just kind of a good hang, and you could watch it for hours. I mean, it's great that Clueless is 97 minutes, but I feel like you could, you're just enjoying it so much,

but not a lot of like major stakes stuff is happening, which same with Fast Times until the abortion, I feel like. But Clueless is that without the abortion. Yeah, Fast Time's a little darker. Right, Clueless, it would be weird if there was some big problem in this movie in a way. Like you're like, these people don't have that kind of life.

I think the narration helps it a lot because you are so centered from the point of view of the character and you're in her head and you understand the way she thinks. And so you're starting the movie kind of laughing at her a little bit more and then staying on the journey of her starting

to like reassess things and get a better understanding of the universe. That's another thing by the way that is just I think very underrated as like a tricky directing thing is here is a movie that's like 50% montage and is going in and out of narration. And there was a clip I saw on one of the behind the scenes things where Amy Heckerling is watching playback of a take and her script supervisor has a stopwatch and she's reading out loud the voiceover narration to make sure before they print the take, is that going to time out well? Because of course in the moment she's just filming Alicia Silverstone doing the thing and then later in a oner she's going to need to have Alicia Silverstone have the space to do that proper voiceover.

Yeah. And it's so, like, marvelously done too, because it's so narration-heavy in the beginning. Yes. And then there's points where it really takes a break, you know, and then she pops back in. It's just, it's so perfectly crafted in that way. And it shouldn't, obviously, like, doing voiceover narration can really blow up in your face, but it's perfect. Yeah. Because she's so self-assured. And it's that kind of classic, like when you have a

unreliable narrator, but she doesn't know, like, when she sounds like, whatever. Not clueless, I guess. Right? Like she doesn't get the moments where she sounds a little... We talked about in our Higher Learning episode, weirdly, the concept of, like, page 20 knowledge of when you get to page 20 of the book and you're like, yeah, I think I get this. And like, this kind of empowered teenager is like, I think I figured everything out.

I'm 16 now. I get it. And it's why it helps to be inside her head, because like, the narration dips away when she's starting to question her understanding of reality, which at the beginning of the movie is so solidified in her life. She's half right. She does have life figured out. It's just that she's not mature, and she sort of knows, like, she hasn't had sex, and she hasn't really dated.

Like, she's known, I guess, not to dip into stuff that she doesn't know how to control, maybe. This is why I feel like women my age who saw Clueless at the time they did are also super into the whole Real Housewives franchise. Cause like the thing you want, I feel like as a woman, is to watch someone aspirational and not self-aware and completely themselves.

And that makes for really good television. Like, and that is what, you know, there's moments, obviously, where Cher becomes self-aware, but the moments where she's not, it's very funny, and she looks great. She looks great throughout. Everyone looks great. I was also thinking about when you read the people

that were also up for the role of Cher. I was trying to be like, I was also thinking about when you read the people that were also up for the role of Cher. I was trying to be like, I was like, oh my gosh, yeah, Reese Witherspoon, I think I can see it, or Angelina Jolie, da da da. But I wonder if it was just having the context of seeing her a little bit in those Aerosmith videos. Like, I don't think I had a context of Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, or Reese Witherspoon before that. I'm sure I saw a very small, like, supporting role of them. But there was something about being like, that is the ultimate cool girl who everybody wanted to look like.

And yeah, now she gets the next big thing. It was... Right. And yet also, like, kinda didn't have a voice at that point. It was like such an established piece of iconography. She was in three videos. There was a trilogy of Alicia Silverstone is the avatar for modern Aerosmith as the ultimate cool girl. And now here's a movie that's based around her talking.

And you're realizing like, oh, she knows how to deliver jokes. Yeah, I think that also brought people out to the theater. Totally, yes. Yeah, more than the other actresses at the time would have. She was also the first person to get a belly button piercing. Like, I know that's not true, but that's sort of what it felt like.

It was like she took that mainstream by doing that in the Aerosmith video. Crying is the one. And crazy is another one of them, right? I'm trying to remember the three. And, um, wait, crying, crazy. Crying is the one of them, right? I'm trying to remember the three. And wait, Cryin', Crazy. Cryin' is the one where she falls off the bridge at the end because she's emo.

Amazing is the third one. That one I don't know as well. Yeah, that one's a little like, it's more in a void. It's taken out of the real world and it's more in a void. Ben, 90s Aerosmith, where do you fall on that? You're more of a hunkin' on Bobo guy, right? What is that? That was their late blues album.

Harmonica-based blues album called Honkin' on Bobo. I think it was like 2012. I missed that one, Griff. Uh, their early stuff is incredible. Toys in the Attic. Yes. Quintessential, like, album of the 70s. Is this a 70s album for sure?

Get a Grip was my first CD. So that's 90s Aerosmith. That's like the 70s. Is this a 70s album for sure? Get a Grip was my first CD. So that's 90s Aerosmith. That's like prime 90s. So that was your first CD ever. Top of the Tower. 1993. Top of the Tower. The Tower Begins. That's the one with the cow udder. Yes.

Oh, sure. It was the Pierced, one of the Pierced. And that has Cryin' and Crazy. And Living on the edge? Does it have amazing as well? Does it have all three silver stones? Yes, it has amazing. It has all three silver stones. I mean, listen, it had hits. Yeah.

There's so many hits. And even not the hits, but it's weird to think of myself as a nine-year-old being like, living on the edge. In my room, like, what the fuck is going on? But I think it was Alicia Silverstone that made it even more palatable for me It's like if she signs off they were so they smart in terms of reinvention Like people should still make music. Yeah, why did teens go for them? They looked old like you know in the 80s they used run DMC to make themselves relevant again. In the 90s they used Alicia Silverstone and then later Liv Tyler

to make themselves like relevant to young girls again. Yes. Yes. Permanent Vacation, which is an 80s Aerosmith album, starts off with a song called Heart's Done Time. And I think it's so good, except for when you put it on, it's so overproduced and like loud, you know what I mean?

Like that era of rock music where it was just like, everyone was just pushing up on all the sliders and you're like, you don't need to do that. But it was just, I guess, the peak of that era. That's all. Do you remember the song, Janey's Got a Gun? Of course. And that's kind of got an epic video and I was really into it.

Another one where I would have been even younger at that point. I would have been 60 and a half singing like, Janey's got a gun. But at the time, my dad had a girlfriend who knew that I watched the video a lot, didn't think that was appropriate, but then also pulled me aside and was like, I don't want you saying gun. I don't want you singing that. So if you want to sing that, replace gun with flower. Jamie's got a flower. Jamie's got a flower with my jam.

Your dad is a huge music fan, right? And you have like a massive record collection. Cause I watched your AD and we just have to shout out. Oh, yeah. Your home in Kansas City is incredible. Thank you. The design of it. Thank you. It's like... It's iconic for me.

I love watching those. Like, I love that series. And your house is one of the standouts for me. Well, you're welcome at any time. I love to host. We almost talked about this before, Rekord, but I need to bring this up now. Yeah.

Your dressing room at SNL... Right....feels very clueless-styled. If not deliberately. And you describe it as like your dream childhood bedroom. It is. You know, my childhood bedroom was covered floor to ceiling in cutouts from Entertainment Weekly and Variety and Hollywood Reporter Oscar ads. And then posters. My dressing room now is that, but with Christmas lights

and Chili Pepper lights, because my mom loved those, and then things that I wasn't able to buy at the time, or memorabilia, and so it is just a... TV VCR combo. TV VCR combo. But there's a video people can watch to be clear. Yeah. Oh yeah, I did that on AD as well.

Yeah. So does everyone get their own dressing room? I don't even know the rules of this. Yes, so typically when you start, do you get like to, you have to move up the ladder to get your own? You have a roommate usually. I got my own dressing room maybe like three or four seasons in, and then we moved around and we had to spread out more during COVID.

And then I got my own again, like my fifth or sixth season. And then you've seen the dressing room. You know how elaborate it is. It's elaborate. Then my like seventh season, they were like, hey, sorry, like with the cast number, you're gonna have to share again. Because there's a lot of people in the cast right now. Because you also laid down roots.

I've been in a couple other SNL dressing rooms, and everyone else feels like they have it set up in a way where it's like, I could move out of here in an hour if you needed me to switch. It's like heat. If the cops are coming, I get back to the start. Drop of a hat, I can rock and roll. Your place, you've put down.

I have anxiety about when I will need to do the move. But they were like, and you're gonna have to move upstairs. And I was like, I really don't like this, but also just go to my dressing room and if you still feel the same way after being in there. And they're like, okay, you don't have to move. It's a classic. So they tried to move you off the eighth floor.

Yeah. Yes. Who was your original roommate? My original roommate was Melissa Villasenor and then Ago was my second year roommate. And then since then, I've been solo. The whole SNL thing is, it's like college. It is. When people are talking about it, it really does feel that way sometimes.

Yeah. I, through your extended generosity, I went to the Michael Keaton episode this season. My idol. You love Mikey. My guy, my number one guy. And I knew going in that there was a sketch you had been pushing really hard to get on the air. And at the end of dress rehearsal, it was like on the board as the last sketch

of the night where it's like, is it going to make it on or not? Yeah. And I sat there watching the show and was feeling such secondhand stress the entire fucking time where it wasn't like I couldn't enjoy the show, but suddenly I was so hyperfixated on the, like, high school aspect of it. And all I was doing was watching, like, Lauren standing on the floor and watching people do their sketch,

and then the second it ended, looked to him for approval. Like, I was so hyperfixated, like, how are the sets gonna come together in time? And how's everyone feeling right before and after the sketch starts? It's insane. A couple times this season, we've had, because you do, you see people watching on the floor. Like, you know, Ego had a big update a couple weeks ago and people like zoomed out to show the crowd on the floor and it's like Paul Rudd, Adam Scott, Lin-Manuel. There was a sketch I did this season,

I'm a huge sports fan, where I did the sketch and then I ran off and three of the San Francisco 49ers were there and like, they were like, yeah, good job! That was awesome! I didn't know that they were there. I was just like, George Kittle and Christian McCarver, what? They were just there hanging out, just like there to have fun.

Yes, and pumping me up. But also I'm sure you have no time to process that because you already now need to be like running somewhere else to do something. 100% and you want to take a second to be like... And also a week ago, I was going out for a sketch and you know, only had like a 90 second change or something and I probably changed in 50 seconds and and I had 40 seconds to go, and the cast of Southern Charm was in the hallway.

And I was like, I was like, oh, Ted! Oh, my God! Southern Charm, let me go! And my dresser was like, let's go! Right, to me, I imagine what they do to Miss Geist, where like you're walking and there are people just like taking clothes off of you and putting clothes, like they're like, I'm very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, like, it's like, I am very, yeah. Yes, and you're responsible to it. And I'm so comfortable now doing it. And like, I'll know what I have under, because sometimes you underdress things.

So if I know that I have proper amounts of clothing, I'll be changing myself as I'm running. But then I remember there's an audience that thinks I'm about to like flash them. I'm like, you still need to go behind a curtain. Oh, there has to, right. Just the sense of propriety. Yes, they're there.

They'll freak out. The table side guac sketch on that episode, right? I'm like watching the time narrow. Yes. And I'm looking and I'm like, it's not even 10 to one. It's like five to one. Yes. Right? How many pages that the sketch supposed to be?

And I'm looking on the floor and watching people furiously rewriting cue cards. 100%. And it's like you've had like 12 different versions of this sketch over a week and you're going out there and there have been cuts made 30 seconds before. I know. How is your brain not short circuiting? You just have to do it, but it is like a sketch like that that used to be 10 pages, a typical

sketch like that becomes four and a half. It makes no sense. You know? But you're making these edits that you're like, I hope this still works. A hundred percent. If we pull this line out, the sketch doesn't collapse. Yes. Yes. It's insane. I mean, I could just talk about this all day. I'm trying to... Clueless, clueless, clueless. Yeah. So they get the teachers together. That's wonderful. They remake Ty. She's immediately attracted to Travis, but they steer her towards Elton.

A... about as villainous as a character as there is in Clueless, and he's not villainous, really. He's just kind of like a mean rich kid, right? Just into someone else, which is something we all experience. And he's got the most kind of like, no, I need to date like a successful rich girl brain. And I mean, I don't know who my dad is.

Right. And obviously if you watch Clueless a million times, you realize that Elton is hugging and kissing Cher every single time he's near her. Yes. And she's just completely oblivious. But that all peaks at the party. The party is great.

Amy Heckerling is so good at a party. You know what I mean? Five Fast Times has great partying. This is a great party. Doesn't this feel like a real party? Yes, it is one of the special features I watched. This suck and blow thing seems to have been the single most difficult thing in the filming of the entire movie.

Wow. Where they could not get it to work. They were using a real credit card. They were like, it's not sticking. It's too thick. Because now it looks like a social security card. Yes, so they changed it to work, they were using a real credit card, they were like, it's not sticking, it's too thick. Because now it looks like a social security card. Yes, so they change it to that because they were like, we need cardboard, it can't be plastic. Then it still wasn't working, so they cut tiny holes in it where they were like,

maybe it will keep a suction. That didn't work. So then they ended up putting lip gloss and chapstick on everyone's mouths. Oh, that's so funny. But you watch it and it's like as if they were staging like an action set piece and they're like stressed out that the explosions aren't going off in real time. You watch like Bill Pope tearing his hair up being like, okay, how do we fix this? I definitely watched that movie, this movie when I was 10 years old

and I was like, am I gonna have to do that at a party? I have to do this like elaborate... Such a stressful game. Kissing chicken game? Like, what is this? I'm like, either we're making out or we're not. I'd rather not make out than feel the stress of watching this game. Is that real? Did Clueless make this up? It's made up, right?

I think one of the things that brought forth into our culture, what I love about the party too, and what Hacker Lane does span of time-wise is that it's Christmas around the party. And you just know... Right, you got the snowman... Yeah, and that happens in Fast Time, what Hector Lane does span of Timewise is that it's Christmas around the party. And you just know. Right, you got the snowman. Yeah, and that happens in Fast Time. And it's just like another comfort moment.

Wow, there's an entire Vulture article just about the party scene. Murray's keeping it real, obviously. Tara Reid apparently was on set just hanging out. Cool. Wow. But I'm not from California. I don't know the Valley as well.

I only know it from movies, but this is what I thought of when I thought of the Valley for so long. This kind of house, this kind of anonymous vibe, yes. Looks kind of mid-century ranch style. Well, also the great LA joke of everywhere in Los Angeles is 20 minutes away. Yeah. But he demands you leave the party.

But that is the thing that was burned in my memory. And then I got to LA and they were like, nothing, you can't get lunch in 20 minutes if it's down the road. Everything takes an hour. And is it just the traffic's gotten worse or something? Here's what I would say. Or is he, does he live in a sort of reality bubble

where he's like, everything takes 20 minutes. Like, and he doesn't know what time is anymore. My experience as someone who goes to? LA and and now it just does ride shares everywhere right as a Podcaster who can't drive is that like if everything is working perfectly it's all 20 minutes away Yeah, if there is a minor hiccup on the road everything becomes an hour Yeah, right So you're like if you get lucky it's somehow 20 minutes to get anywhere.

Because Kansas City, if anyone wants that ideal, Kansas City really is everything's 20 minutes away in a perfect way. A perfectly laid out city. Yeah. And there's just never knock on with that much traffic. Yeah. So I do believe it exists. And when I think about that, the layout of LA and I lived there for a long time,

it should be like that. Right. She gets robbed at gunpoint. I guess this is sort of her lowest point. Well, you're skipping over also. She's maneuvering to try to get Ty in the car with Elton. Yes, yeah, yeah. And then he is clearly maneuvering

to get Cher in the car with him. Our friend Jamie Loftus, the great Jamie Loftus, has said that in her mind, this is like the best scene of how you deal responsibly with a situation where you're being sexually pressured. Sure. She's like, this is like the thing I would show to high school girls on how to handle it.

Yes. Because he's not like villainously like sex monster. He's being a jerk. He's being a jerk and he's being pushy. He's being pushy and then he's kind of like, sure, get back in the car, get back in the car, which is like kind of like, it's, you know, it's pressurey. It's gross. And she's just like really firm about like, I don't feel comfortable with this. Right. And of course she does get robbed, but you know, and that sucks. But, and her

dress gets ruined. I guess. But then Josh has to come pick her up. The fact that Josh is so quick to pick her up, even when he's making out with a hip intellectual college student, does start to belie the fact that he maybe has feelings for her. I do love the recurring motif of like, you hear the brief snippets of the radio head song multiple times, and Cher's always kind of dismissive of like, oh, you're crunchy, like heady college student music. And it's only when she falls for him at the end that, like, the song plays in full.

Yeah. And she gets it now. Yes. This brings up an interesting part for me, which I just discussed for someone, with someone. Where do we think Josh goes to college? Great question. Great question.

I assumed UCLA, but I don't actually know. Now, he's an undergrad, right? I know he wants to be a lawyer. He's not in law school. No. The idea is that he's just. Now, he's an undergrad, right? I know he wants to be a lawyer. He's not in law school. The idea is that he's just, like, he's like 19. Yes, that's what I think. And I think that we only... We see him in his dorm room in that scene with the girl,

you know, and otherwise he's at their house or his mom's or something like this. But Easter egg, which is just interesting, is that in a later scene, he's wearing a KU hat, or his mom's or something like this. But Easter egg, which is just interesting, is that in a later scene, he's wearing a KU hat, which Paul Rudd went to KU. Yeah, and obviously it was just like, but I feel like, did he just get that by with wardrobe?

Because I think so. Yeah, because it doesn't make sense. It doesn't. Yeah, just college kids don't wear other college hats. No, absolutely not. I mean, maybe he's a huge Jayhawks fan. What were the Jayhawks doing in the 90s? Yeah, well, oh, that's true. Maybe Josh's, because definitely Rudd was.

It's kind of like a Duke thing. You know, where it's just like a big college team. I'm really not pushing it. But who I watched it with was like, do we think he went to KU? And I was like, and he's flying to Beverly Hills? No, impossible. Why would he go to a big state school was like, and he's flying to Beverly Hills for college break? No, impossible. Why would he go to like a big state school

in the middle of the country? That isn't tracking for me. I think if you go that far away from home for school, you only go home at Christmas and you're lucky if it's Thanksgiving, but you see your family one time a year. I think he goes to USC or UCLA or whatever. Yeah, he has to because she calls him. Yeah. Yeah, he has to, because she calls him.

Yeah. Right. She has to know he's close by. Yes. Yes, and he's got a pretentious pseudo-girlfriend, not even girl, I don't know. A fling. A fling, something.

But we don't know much else about him, just that he doesn't wanna hang out with his mom, I guess. Why? I guess she's just a bummer, right? Or he doesn't know, he doesn't like the new husband. That's what it is. He mentions the new husband. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to look up Kansas City,

Kansas seasons in the 90s. Just really stressed out. Around that time, we were great. Roy Williams was the coach. That's the thing. I mean, I buy it all. I just was like- So that's the internal logic.

Yes. I had, for buy it all. I just like... So that's the internal logic. Yes. I had, for years, when I was acting... Paul Pierce, Ralph LaFrance, this is a good T Jack von. Rob Holler. Yep. I had a, my, Derek Simon, my oldest childhood friend, we made a t-shirt of like his like preschool class photo, where he just had a really funny pose,

where he just kind of like looked like a cool guy. Yeah. It was like his mom had dressed him like a little gentleman. Right. And he was just kind of feeling himself that day as like a three-year-old, and he looked really confident. And so we made shirts of it and would wear it. And whenever I would do any sort of shoot,

and they were like, can you bring some t-shirts for home? I would always force that shirt on camera. Yeah. Because I just thought it was so funny. And I was like, as long as nothing I'm in ever becomes so successful that the t-shirt is established, I can keep getting away with this. I can keep doing like fucking college humor shorts where I wear this shirt. And I have to imagine there was a similar thing of Paul Rudd being like, if I can just

wear the hat of like my alma mater for five seconds, it's a win. It's for me. Yes. It hopefully doesn't break the reality of the movie too much. Yeah. I was thinking about that recently. I was like, why don't I just lie, not that I'm on red carpets that much, but like when you're asked what you're wearing, I'm like,

why don't I just say like Kansas City places, even if they're restaurants. Oh, sure. You know, like Winsteads, you know? Like just to get it out there. Just to boost it, yeah. Everyone go to Winsteads. I'm looking it up, steak burgers? Yep.

All right, ooh, this looks fun. Yeah, it's really fun. Never been to Kansas City. Well, you're welcome, everyone's welcome. Yeah, I know. Great city, very fun. Okay, so Elton makes his move. She realizes she's been a little foolish about all of this. Of course, Elton was never interested in Ty.

He's a bit of a self-entitled jackass. So now Ty's bummed out. Cher is bummed out. You have the diner scene that also reveals that Cher is a virgin. Right. Which is this first sort of moment of like Cher is presenting herself as so much more worldly than she is. Yes, she is playing high status with Ty who has done a lot more than she has. Yes, Ty is a more worldly girl in some ways. Yeah.

Exactly. And that's when Christian enters the scene as a transfer, right? Like, we actually get the info right at the start. The buzz on Christian is that he's doing one semester in Chicago, one semester here. She says that. And he's a bit of a Baldwin. Yes. What do we think of Christian?

Kind of the one cast member that did not have much of a career, Justin Walker. Yeah, and I think he's incredibly good at this. He's so funny in this movie, but he's like got barely any credits otherwise. I don't know what the deal is. It's such a good bit. Yes. And of course Cher loves him.

Like, he's perfect for her, because he's kind of non-threatening and he's so put together and kind of got this like classy. Fashion attempts. Yes. The stages of it are just so funny from like, here's like, you know, she's saving herself for Luke Perry, right, is the joke. And then this guy comes in and he does have this sort of Luke Perry vibe. But see, I have... He's the one that doesn't track for me in the movie

because he doesn't have the Luke Perry vibe, he has the Jason Priestley vibe, and also looks like a brother of Jason Priestley. He looks a lot like Jason Priestley. And I just could never figure out, I'm like, why is Cher into him? Like, there was just... Because he dresses well. I really think it's that. No, go ahead.

He's almost too much... He's got the Chandler Bing shirts, and like, it just never added up for me. But I think she doesn't wanna have sex with somebody, so she kind of likes it, he's kind of sexually not threatening. Luke Perry would be too intimidating for her in real life. He's like, shorter than her. Yeah, he's dripping sex and they're gonna have, yes.

Right, Jason Piersley's the safer version of it. He's someone, she can ask him, what do you think of Amber, and he can go, Haggisville, like looking down his glasses. Like that's the kind of chat she likes to have. That's why the transposing of Jane Austen onto high school makes so much sense. Yes, that character is completely different in the book

because his whole thing in the book is that he has a secret fiance that he can't reveal. They just dump that because that, they didn't know how to transpose that. But the point is, why isn't she interested, why isn't he interested in her, why doesn't he wanna be with her? I'm just saying more globally,

the idea of taking that era of novel and transposing it into high school culture is like, that is the one modern place where this sense of like, who belongs together feels like so overwhelming. Where I think, as you said, like, Cher doesn't actually want to be in a relationship. She's scared of sex. She's scared of intimacy, right?

She's scared of, like, having to be vulnerable with anyone else. Having to, like, share power with anyone else. So her thing with Christian is just, like, on paper, this seems like the right kind of guy for me to date. And I think Heckerling does a good throttling of like, in every scene, his weird, rat-packy affectation is heightened. It's not as apparent the first time you see him.

And then it's slowly creeping in, like, on paper, this seems like a Jason Priestley runoff. And then you're like, he's got this weird 50s, like, swing cat thing. And then you realize he's gay. You're sort of peeling him back. You think the death of Sammy Davis Jr. left an opening in your rat pack is another joke my mom had to explain to me when I was 10, but is so funny.

I got a 45 and a shovel. I doubt anyone would miss you. It's the right level of like, he is scary, but you're also like, this is sweet. Like, you know, I love the joke of her putting... Even just the simpler, do like he is scary, but you're also like this is sweet. Yeah, you know I love the joke or do you drink? No, I'm good. I wasn't If you drink yeah Him telling her to put something over the dress and she puts like the thinnest to see through like like kind of camisole Or whatever it's so funny, but that's part of why she's attracted him. It's like her her not understanding

It's so funny, but that's part of why she's attracted him. It's like her her not understanding What she would want in a relationship? Yeah at this stage is her just being like a guy who complements all my outfits Totally what do you mean? Yeah a guy who every day goes like what did you do to your hair? That's amazing her joke of he dresses better than me. I don't know what I would bring to Yeah But he's very sweet at the at the ska show. Yeah, I don't know what I would bring to the relationship. Yeah. But he's very sweet at the Ska show. Yeah. I don't know.

There's an interesting thing too of like in that diner scene right before Christian enters where like Cher is sharing the story of Alton in the car and like making it about herself. But also it's like she's delivering this bad news to Ty, which is like, he's not interested in you. He's been interested in me the whole time. He's making, you know, he made a pass that failed, and now we're shutting this guy out. Yeah. And Ty is getting so emotionally worked up about a guy,

they basically talked her into liking. Yeah. That shares persuasiveness has kind of completely warped her brain. I love that scene then later where Ty is, like, they're burning the Elton box of stuff. She, like, kept, like, the towel from when he helped her at the party and stuff. And I so... I... The amount of shit I saved from guys that, like, definitely didn't like me or paid me no mind or playbills.

You know, just like... This was important. It was so... I love that scene. It's another dialogue exchange I love is, he's too good for you, if he's too good for me, then why am I not with him? Yeah. Which I would like hate when people said that to me. You know, when I was like 15 and had some crush on somebody

and they were like, you're too good for her anyway. And I'm like, that doesn't make me feel like, that doesn't help this situation. I mean, the scene later where she goes to her dad to say like, I like this boy and he doesn't like me back. And he's just like, well, then he's just stupid. Is so sweet. And it's just getting the right mix of aggression

and kind of like, you know, good heartedness from him, right? Where he's kind of bucking her just getting the right, like the right mix of aggression and kind of like, you know, good heartedness from him, right? Where he's kind of bucking her up in the right way, being like, you have a work ethic. You care about people. Like, it's not, you're not just an earhead. Like, yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

It's just nice. Yes. But even just like, right, her whole, I mean, because right before Christian's introduced, you have the all the young dudes thing of her explaining why she's so disappointed by the boys of her generation. Right? Like, why can't they put in an effort? Christian is all effort. Yes. Yeah.

That is the main thing I think she's attracted to. Who would you most... Travis is the answer of who would you most want to, like, hang out with. Well, for me, it's Cher. But, like, Travis is probably the easiest. Travis and Murray, yeah. Murray's most want to like hang out with. Well, I would, for me it's Cher, but like Travis is probably the easiest. Travis and Murray. Yeah. Murray's probably a pretty good hang. Yeah. Yeah. Christian definitely just, yeah. Mike, Mike, Mike, my teeth hurt a little bit at a certain point.

For sure. Christian saves Ty at the mall, which is actually, it's played up that like she's talking later. Being over the top about it. Yeah, about it's a near death experience. But it's really scary. It's so scary. Like the stakes of it and like that these guys are being so reckless. Yeah.

It's fucked up. Yes. I'm not trying to apologize for them, but she also should have never sat on them. No, terrible idea. Also her up there is so scary. Yes. Just in general. Because that's slippery, that like the hand railing.

It's like a metal... Yeah, it's scary from the second she's just talking to them. I'm worried. No back support. Yeah. In the book, she faints because she has like an encounter with local like travelers. It's completely different. I shouldn't even bring that up.

That's fine. Look, it's the early 19th century. Yes. Travelers. It's completely different. I shouldn't even bring it up. That's fine. Look, it's the early 19th century. They also knew, like, such the way to... Because that... Yeah, if she's talking about a near-death experience, and we're all agreeing that it is scary, but also they didn't... They still kept it in kind of a light, bubbly, clueless world.

You know, because you're kind of like, what was that? You know, we're adults now, so we're talking about it and saying it's scary. But I have to imagine in the movie theater, I wasn't like, you know, like I knew she was gonna be okay. Like, yeah. And the immediate joke is how quickly, like through the game of telephone,

the story gets heightened. Yes, yes. It's crazy proportions. Yes, but it does elevate Ty in a way that's sort of out of Cher's control. And this does unbalance her. And rather than turning her into a villain, I feel like causes her to look inward. And what she finds inside of her is that she likes to help people. And she's like, I guess I'll help with the Pismo Beach disaster, right?

I'll like help, you know, like... Was that made up? It's made up. Okay. Now, Pismo Beach is real. Yes, I've been there. My wife had the same question. She was like, what's the Pismo Beach disaster?

And I'm like, I don't know. Let me go, but it is just made up. But imagine all of your belongings, you know, the way Twink Kaplan sells it. Your memory is gone in a second. The separate boxes for appetizers and entrees. Like, it's... Daddy, you didn't like that red caviar, right? But that's an example of what I'm talking about,

where it's just like, that is not a set-up punchline joke. That is a joke based on that character being so well established. And she's earned it. But it's ridiculous, but it makes sense. With such good intentions. She just doesn't think about, like, what do you mean, that's not important? To separate it makes sense. With such good intentions. She just doesn't think about like, what do you mean? That's not important to separate it into courses. These are people who don't have food. What is her line about the skis?

I can get you the exact line probably, but daddy, some people lost all their belongings. Don't you think that includes athletic equipment? Right. Right, it's coming from such a good place. She means well. Yes. Yes, isn't everyone like... She's a little clueless, as the title says. Yeah.

And like, she has her moments, like when she's watching the news and she's like, I thought they declared peace in the Middle East, which is I'm like, that's the right kind of dumb girl joke, or it's like, why would she need to know about like the Balkan crisis? She's only 16 years old, right? Like, that tracks to me. Like, she's never so silly. What does she need to know about the Balkan crisis? She's only 16 years old, right? That tracks to me. She's never so silly.

No, and the Polonius moment is like, I remember what Mel Gibson says and he didn't say that, right? And it's like, okay, she knows Hamlet because she has a crush on Mel Gibson, but also she was paying attention. She listened and she remembers the lines. Yes, exactly. She's not just watching, getting lost in Mel Gibson's eyes or whatever. Ben!

What's up man? You're getting into fashion. All the time. Yep. I've been for years. For years you've been getting in. Yes. Media res.

I'm not big on trends, as you know. I'm big on clothes that feel good and last. Yes. Media res. I'm not big on trends as you know. I'm big on clothes that feel good and last. Right. You're about comfort. I'm about comfort and I'm about ease and that's why I keep going back to quints. There are lightweight layers and high quality staples have become my everyday essentials. They make me feel like a grown up man. Dressing like a grown up. I'm dressing like a grown up man. You know what I'm saying? Yep. Okay. Hold on Creek You seem to be shaking something in your hand hey, what's going on here? What is this place? I'm sorry who who are you baby Mikey baby Mikey look who's talking? Oh sure hey What's up, baby? Mike? You're it's a little weird cuz your mouth isn't moving

That's not what I do. Okay, that's not really the style. Okay. Yeah, I just like say the things the babies are thinking, you know Sure, sure sure sure, but I don't really say them out loud. I convey them. I guess feel or I'm hearing you So yeah, come on in. Look who's listening hey hey ben yeah what uh are you here for well when i grow up i want to dress like a man oh right well there's this great service quince we're actually in the middle of doing a ad read for them what quince giving they have all the things that you would want to wear this summer and i guess something for you little baby to aspire to aspire to in summer's future. Now you say all the things.

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And you know, I am the child of an accountant. Listen, Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Even I know that and I'm a baby. Hey, Ben. What's up, Mikey? Gaga Gugu, I happen to notice

you're looking pretty fly today. Thank you man yeah I gotta say I've been wearing quints a lot lately I really love their stuff it was really nice to just like get a bunch of new fresh stuff for the warmer season. Well tell me about those new fits you're throwing Ben. Right now I'm rocking the men's ultimate commuter seven inch short so yeah I'm showing a lot of gams as you can see, but I just, I feel comfortable and I just think that they're really flattering.

And you know, I like to show leg. What can I say? Hey man, I'd show them if I had them. My legs are like three inches total. You'll get there someday. I'm a baby. You'll get there someday. I'm a baby.

I might have the streetwise sub-law fair of an adult man, but let's remember I am a baby. And I got to tell you too, like with this polo that I'm wearing from them. Yeah. It just, it feels like luxury quality, but it's just not breaking the bank. These are clothes you're not going to want to feed to Mr. Toilet Man. Let's put it that way. That is exactly, exactly the way I would describe how I feel about Quince. Can't think of a better way to put it. Hey Mikey, this is Griffin again. Do you mind if I just close out the ad with a quick call to action? Basically we're telling our listeners to stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.com slash check for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns that's for you that's quince.com slash check q u i n c dot com slash check to get free

shipping 365 day returns quince.com slash check hey one more thing over here what's up Mikey I got something I need you to order for me. Yep. A fresh diaper. Oh, no. I'm sorry, I'm still a baby. I like that she realizes that she likes Josh, the fountain lights up behind her,

and doesn't go right after him. Instead, does the Pismo Beach, it starts to just do shit that is nice. And it's not until Josh defends her with Mean Suspenders Boy, so mean, that they find they have their moment. And she gets Josh to sort of like, you know, whatever. Admit that they like each other. Because she's been viewing herself as above Josh,

because Josh is like an unfun dork in her mind, right? Like, he's like the buzzkill who wants to be a grown up. Yeah. And she doesn't get it. And the moment she has that realization, she's just like, I don't even know what type of woman he wants to be with. Right.

But I imagine it isn't me. And I like that she doesn't do this complete pretending to be a different person. But you notice the next couple scenes she starts dressing down. Oh, yeah. She's way low-key. She's still Cher, but it's like all more toned down. The cardigan, like just a t-shirt and jeans. Yeah.

Um, yeah, you're right, you're right. She's a little less loud or whatever. And everyone kind of starts, you know, like Travis, uh, whatever, focuses up on his skateboarding. He goes to weed rehab. Yes. Little, little on the notes. Right. Refr madness. He went to 12 steps for it. I know that was the thing. I was like the rewatch. I'm like, Oh, you're really, Oh, okay. He's, he's in rehab. He's in the program. Cause he smoked a lot of weed. I don't know, he's pretty functional. Maybe it was too much.

I mean, yeah. The 2025 version of that joke would be like, he's giving up nine of his bongs and only keeping one because he doesn't want to be stoned all the time. And this movie has to frame it as like, he has signed up for like, weed anonymous. Yeah. And it's like fully weaned himself off the devil's lettuce. Yeah, he's only sober and what, like he would be like doing mushroom chocolate,

but not like, yeah. Right, right. Versus, this movie has a little bit still of the 90s, like is Weed the innate sign of an unserious person? Yeah. Yeah. Dion and Murray, like get closer, have sex, seem to to mature a little bit because of the freeway sequence, which is This is a perfect representation of why I don't drive Like I watch this sequence in the movie and i'm like, this is what I imagine it would feel like all the time Right the first time you drive on a highway is scary

I would feel like share and i'd be crashing into people's fucking rear view mirrors and I end up on the freeway and suddenly everything's moving really fast. I can't get off it. Was that a major stunt? Because this semi is terrifying. It actually looks very close to them. They do a great job, like, exactly making it feel very high pressure. What's the funny part of them having Bill Pope shoot this is you're like, this is the scene that's his bailiwick, basically. I think there's also just a good joke to how, like, tiny their world is. That they really wouldn't be getting on the freeway much by themselves. They don't need to, right? And, uh, God, I guess, yeah, the first... I was... Maybe it's this movie's fault.

I was scared to, like, merge on, like, when I'm learning how to drive. It's terrible. How does anyone do this? You have to go really fast, really quickly, and then just kind of get in there. It's scary to drive on those freeways in LA too. The first time, it's so intense. The first time I drove in LA, I had to like make a left off of Sepulveda or some big ass road. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'll just, where's my turning lane? And then it's like, no, you just kind of have to turn left across like eight lanes of traffic.

That's just kind of what we do here. And I asked like an LA person, I was like, is that, did I fuck up? And they were like, no, no, that's just driving in LA. It is scary. I drove there for 10 years and I won't now. I'm too scared. Now you're like, I'm getting an Uber.

I don't want to do it. Yeah, I'll drive in Kansas City. And I wouldn't even drive here. I'm very scared of it. I did it like four years ago and when I got on the highway, I felt the way they felt in Clueless. I was like, this is coming at me so fast.

They're very large and they do go fast. I love it. I was so nervous about it and then I was just like, oh no, it's fine. Like merging is not scary to me. I hope I get back to that. It's more scary driving on the other side of the road. Did you do that? Well, I just went to St. Cro's more scary driving on the other side of the road. Did you do that?

Well, I just went to St. Croix recently. Oh, that's right. So they have American style cars. You might notice that Ben's still on island time. Yeah, I know. The beads are starting to come out. But you have to drive on the other side of the road. So it's really weird.

Because the driver is then on the shoulder side. Yeah, that's fucked up. Yeah. And I imagine just turning is just... So then all of a sudden, like, making a right turn is like... It just... I couldn't rewire my brain in the moment. It was just so weird. It was... I had a few moments where I just was really, like,

pretty terrified driving around. Don't drive around. Yeah, drive my side. Never drive around. No, I mean, I actually love driving, which is weird of me, considering what an anxious person I am about to travel. But that ends with Marie consoling Dion, which ends like after that day, her virginity stopped being technical. Yeah.

Um, her, her like lace, I guess hat that she wears in the highway scene, Dion. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's so good. I know. Yeah. It's like a doily beret. Yes, that's... Yeah. But that's like a realization mon for her too. I mean, I think it's later where Cher says the thing about like recognizing the good

and everyone she knows are the things, you know, she likes about them and says like, how sweet they are when no one else is watching. That there's this awareness that their relationship seems to be based in fighting, but it's kind of a, like, comedic, exhilarating fighting that they don't actually mean. As much as that's sort of their weird love language. And then she's like, if no one's watching, they're just really gentle with each other. Yeah, which I love. And she witnesses that for the first time

because the fear of the life and death stakes of being on the freeway has caused the defenses to go down, which I think in that moment makes her realize, like, this is an actual relationship. I don't have this with anybody. It's not a guy just saying, you look fantastic. And obviously the person she's most vulnerable and closest to is Josh, who she will lounge

around in her PJs and watch Ren and Stimpy with him and all that. And she just needs to realize it. And she does realize it. And they make out and they go to the wedding of the teachers together. And then the movie ends. And you're so happy. You want nothing else. I can't believe you just speed ran through it that much. Your favorite movie.

What am I missing? The thing I was going to say is at the wedding, when there's the bouquet throw, Amy Heckerling is one of the bridesmaids. Oh, sure. Okay. And she framed herself out. Because they were like, she's really shy, she doesn't like being on camera.

But we thought it was funny. She's in one of the dresses, she's basically cut out of the frame. But then in the bouquet throw, she thought they were all being too civil, and was trying to encourage them to be rowdier and more competitive in it, and they couldn't do it. So she just started throwing elbows and pushing them.

Oh, yeah, I see her. There she is. And if you watch the scene, her head is down, she's clearly trying to not be seen on camera, but all the chaos is being instigated by her in the middle of it. Ah! There is someone that it looks like Alicia Silverstone falls directly on. Like, it looks like someone... It might be her.

Yeah. Did you guys ever watch the TV show, the sitcom Clueless? Yeah. It existed for, I want to say, what, like four or five years? Like, it was like three years. And like 60% of the cast carried over. Yeah.

Yes, although not the two stars. But we did have Stacey Dash, Donald Faison, and, uh, Eliza, or Lisa, not sure what you're saying. Donovan. But then also, uh... And Twink is in the first season. Twink and Wallace Shawn was in the first season. And Wallace Shawn was in the first season,

but Michael Lerner plays the dad. Uh, kind of a different vibe. Yeah, but it's similarly established serious actor. Yes. A different Coen Brothers all-star. And then the guy David Lasher, who plays Josh, gets written out after season one. After season one, it went to UPN,

and it became a different show. Right. Josh was not much of a character, and Ty was not much of a character. Yeah. It didn't ever, I watched it, but it didn't ever hit for me. No, it's not very good. I was watching last night some of the Fast Times sitcom, which is all up on YouTube, because I'd been like,

who needs to fucking watch this? And then I found out she wrote and directed half of the episodes. So I was a little curious about how that translation was. And it's very strange because it's her trying to do fast times on network television in 1986. I imagine it doesn't work. And so it feels like this is like Freaks and Geeks 15 years ahead of its time, where it's like she couldn't make it as edgy and complicated as she wanted to. It was, it got canceled, was seen as a failure, and I was like, oh, I wonder what failure was,

what the scale was in 1986. The last episode got 10 million viewers, and they were like, oh, I wonder what failure was. What the scale was in 1986. The last episode got 10 million viewers. And they were like, well, this is unacceptable. Gone. 10 million. It's the 72nd show on network television. But like that's, Courtney Thorne Smith is the Jennifer Jason Leigh part. And Claudia Wells, who's the original Jennifer in the first Back to the Future,

is Phoebe Cates. Like, it has good actors on it, but it all feels very superficial. And even if The Clueless Show wasn't as good, I think Clueless was a tone that was easier to translate to TV. Whereas Fast Time is you're like, you're taking the cursing and the drugs and the sex out, it all feels a little strange. Yeah. Are there any other lines from Clueless I Haven't? Shout it out.

Heidi, is there anything else we haven't touched on? You know, it's a big movie. Clueless. Isn't My House Totally Classic? The columns take all the way back to 1972. That's a good... Her Jeep is awesome. Her Jeep is so good.

That's so good. It's such a great car for someone who doesn't know how to drive to Owen as well. And it's like, it's not the odd, like, I don't know, you'd think convertible, but it's like, no, the cool girl would have the white Jeep. It looks like a Barbie power wheel. Yeah, yeah. That's what I like about it. Yes, it does. It's a child's idea of a cool car.

Right. Versus convertible would actually be cool. Yeah. Yes, I was just having a snack at my girlfriend's where in Kuwait? The way that he yells at Ty, get out of my chair! When she's sitting in his chair. Anything else guys? No? Yes? No? Before we do the box office game?

I'm scrubbing through my... I totally pause. An iconic line. Yeah. I mean, I guess Kai and Josh kind of have this tension a little bit. I think it's mostly in her head, though. Like, I mean, Ty obviously has a crush on Josh, but I feel like Josh is never actually aware that Ty is interested in him. He's just being a good guy.

He's just nice. Yeah. Right. Totally. He's just being a good guy. He's just nice. Yeah. Right. Totally. He's just a good fella. I do like that the sign that Travis has gotten his act together and become a serious enough person that Ty can date him is that he's now professionally skateboarding. Yeah.

Right? And it's like he's given up his bongs and now he's doing it within a competitive structure. It's also funny that they have like an espresso stand there and Cher has like a tiny little paper Starbucks cup, which you're like, oh in 1995 that must have been a joke equivalent to them all having cell phones of like look at how mature and hip these kids are. They drink Starbucks. I like that right. He says he can't drink coffee Christian because of his ulcer. She's like, what about those cappuccinos?

I was just foam. Yeah, that line's really funny. Obviously Christian's obsession with Tony Curtis is very funny. I never got to have a pager. I had a pager. I had a pager. Really?

Yes, my mom got me a pager after 9-11. Where was it before? I think it was after 9-11, because before I was gonna, she wouldn't give me a cell phone. So she got me a pager. And we used it like twice. It would have, you could call a number and read a message

and I would get sent like a text message that would like scroll on the pager. And that was ostensibly the point, right? Was like for an emergency, she could like give me a message. I never used it. It was so stupid, but it would tell me the news and soccer scores. So they would just like come up on the pager.

It's just one of those pieces of technology that you see in the movies, it comes up and it's something I'm like, I'm like kind of almost like, I wish I was jealous. Like I wish I had had that moment in time to have that piece of technology. It's like the 30 Rock Beeper King thing. Technology is cyclical. It's coming back around. Maybe you can make the beeper happen again.

Oh, shit. Yeah. There could be improvements. And there's maybe a way of like, there's the cell phones that only do certain things. Right? I don't remember the name of it. Dumb phones. There's like maybe some version where it's like you can still text message with people, but it's just more involved. And I think you have to go in the opposite direction.

What? People who are going towards the smartphone or the dumb phone, why not sell them a smart beeper instead? They don't want the super complicated smartphone in their life that's sucking up all their attention. They want a downsize, but rather making a dumber phone. Why not make a smarter beeper? It just tells you like this is how many emails you've gotten right in the last three hours and text that makes you realize like Oh, I got to get back to my phone. Right. I got to get back to it or I don't

Movie and you're like I'm gonna get out of this movie and I'm gonna have 67 texts and 100 emails and you have zero and you're like, oh. It's like, oh, worst day of my life. Yeah. Or it feels like the best day. Well, yeah. And you're like, and I'm not as popular as I thought. There are few feelings I love more than waking up and going,

oh my God, no new texts. Yeah. I got nothing to catch up with. Texts do stress me out. Day starts fresh. Yeah. I'm in too many group chats. Okay, let's start a couple more.

Yeah, let's do it. Clueless came out July 21st, 1995. Made $56 million domestic. Opened at 10. Opened at 10. It had like- It tripled its budget. It was a big solid hit, but it also had major longevity.

It was a VHS classic. People were buying too. A cable classic, obviously. The sitcom is on the air a year later. There was a VHS classic. People were buying too. Cable classic. Yeah. Obviously. And I think the sitcom is on the air a year later. There was the spin-off sitcom, which Heckerling worked on the first six episodes and then was like, okay, I don't need to do this. But this is the last successful movie that she makes.

And Loser is a big theatrical movie that kind of made some money, I guess. It's definitely seen as a disappointment. But it's a disappointment. is a big theatrical movie that kind of made some money, I guess, and then that's kind of... It's definitely seen as a disappointment. But it's a disappointment, yeah. And then her last two movies, she has very openly talked about having to claw to get a very meager budget, not being able to make films on the scale that she wants to.

Both of those films we will talk about shortly, but I think the public sort of line on both of them is like it's a little depressing to see her not be given the tools that she used to have. There is the Clueless musical, which... Is about to open in the West End. Yes. It was playing off Broadway.

It has music from Katy Tunstall. When Heckerling is making this movie, she's like, this should be a musical. People should start singing. I think it was, it ran very briefly off Broadway at the beginning of 2020, I wanna say with Dove Cameron playing Cher, and there was a really good New York Times interview

or piece profile on Amy Heckerling talking about the lasting influence of Cher in her life and this whole arc of starting a script thinking she was mocking this character and then coming to really respect someone who could be that positive. Right. And be that happy and everything. And so yeah so, yeah, she was hoping it was gonna

transfer to Broadway. The pandemic happened. The thing sat on ice for a couple years, and now it's finally about to open on the West End. And she's very involved in it. I mean, I'm sure there's a number with shopping bags. I'm sure there are several. Yeah, and for me, I'm, and this is for me, I call a fatal flaw, I do not care for musicals,

and I'm so glad it was never a musical. Or it is one, but I'm like, it's already such a heightened world. If they would have broke out in songs in the mall, I would have been like, no! Are there any musicals you like? I like Pippin a lot. And I think I like Godspell, I like the music in it.

And I like Phantom of the Opera, just because it was a big deal when I was a kid. I like that song. I think we could win you over. This is suggesting to me that there's musicals you don't like. Yeah, there's been a play. Yeah. If you like Godspell, you like Pippin, I don't know. Those are very musically musicals in a lot of ways. All right, Griff, Box Office game. This opens number two at the box office.

So what's number one? It's a big hit of the summer I saw with my whole family. You might have been too young, but maybe you did too. It's a family hit It's a true story film 13 okay, I was like I don't need to say space movie. He'll get it. Yeah, yeah, Paula 13 a great film Yeah, basically always hits. Yeah, I definitely watched that on TV. Yeah Because right this this is June 1995 or July 95. I don't care about Tom Hanks yet. Mm-hmm And then Thanksgiving Toy Story is gonna come out. So by early 96, I'm like, well, Tom Hanks is obviously my favorite actor

So 94 was Forrest Gump, right? You didn't care about him, Right. So then by 96, I'm going through the Tom Hanks VHS collection because I got to fill in knowing what Woody's face looks like. Yeah. Third is a rom-com that's a bit of a flop, that is better known for the sort of... Well, it's actually... It kind of made money, but it's better known for what's going on around the movie. Was there a real life coupling? A real life scandal.

A real life scandal? Was there an affair? Oh, um, was it, um... Wait, okay, wait, I can't... You can just name the actor, it's Nine Months. It's Nine Months. Hugh Grant in Nine Months. Yeah, okay.

A movie where I feel like no one even remembers what the plot is, but everyone remembers that he got a blow job on this trip. Yeah. Like, and that was what the movie was about. Yeah. Have you seen Nine Months? I've still never seen it.

Chris Columbus's Nine Months, written and directed by Chris Columbus. Yes, and Chris Columbus's, we've said this many times on the show, Heidi, but Chris Columbus's contention is that it got like the highest test screening scores in the history of Fox. And everyone was like lighting cigars and saying like,

this is gonna be bigger than Mrs. Doubtfire, which he was just coming off of, right? And he was like, if Hugh hadn't gotten that blowjob, it would have been my highest grossing film. And I'm like, I think there is no universe. You look at the cultural tale of that movie, which is non-existent. People don't remember which movie he was promoting

when he got the blowjob. Right. Which movie he went on Leno to talk about the blowjob. Yeah. That's never going to be doubt fire. I mean, the premise is just he gets someone pregnant. Julianne Moore. I remember my parents coming home from date night, seeing nine months and being like,

Robin Williams is funny. And I was like, oh, it's a Robin Williams movie. And they're like, he's in like 10 minutes. Okay. He's uncredited. Number four. It was a two and a half. I'm sure Robert Butler gave it a two and a half. A classic two and a half.

Yeah. Number four at the box office, and I'm gonna find out what Robert gave it, is a Ben favorite, an action film, a sequel. We've covered it on this show. Is it Under Siege Two Dark Territory? Under Siege Two Dark Territory. Great movie. Which a listener very kindly sent us on Laserdisc. Wege 2 Dark Territory. Wow. Great movie.

Which a listener very kindly sent us on Laserdisc. We now have a Laserdisc. Great. Yeah. Cool. So you can see that beautiful square. Have you ever seen the movie? You don't seem that excited.

No, I do. I mean, what's the matter? That is pretty, like, cool. That's cool. Yes, I have seen that. Looks like Robert Butler skipped reviewing nine months. At least his review has not been uploaded to the internet. What about Under Siege 2?

Oh yeah. It's basically just a big CD. I bet Under Siege 2 got a one and a half. That's a one, yeah. It sounds like he was a really, like for the time, he liked classy projects. Yeah, he was fiscal in Ebert for sure. Right, right.

Number five of the box office, we were just talking about it on one of our many text threads, Griffin. We were just talking about it on one of our many... A sexy horror film. Is it Species? Species. What if an alien, what if alien but with boobs? We have a really, really cool group text called News and Deals

that ostensibly is to talk about announcements and sales on physical media. Okay. But ends up being a wide-ranging conversation. And we just honed in on ends up being a wide-ranging conversation. And we just honed in on Species being a formative first time I saw Boobs movie for many people in the thread. Have you seen Species?

I have to totally. I saw that with my brother Justin. I'm sure that was one where the- Right, Justin's like, we have to go. We have to go. But that movie is violent. It's really good. It is good.

I like that movie. It's a very fun movie. We were saying the thread. Natasha Hinstridge. Yes. Astonishing it hasn't been republished. It is good. I like that movie. It's a very fun movie. We were saying the thread. Natasha Hintridge. Yes. Astonishing it hasn't been reviewed. Heidi, incredible work saying Natasha Hintridge's amazing last name. Where you're always like, oh, it's Natasha Hintridge or Hint-stridge. Hint-stridge.

It's just this people. It's a good word. I love looking at it. Hint-stridge. Hint-stridge. Yes. Love her. Sim said, I can't believe Sydney Sweeney has not already bought the rights to species.

Some young star needs to be like, I'm rebooting species. It's coming back. Species legacy. Yeah, whatever. Hinstridge makes one appearance at the end. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the top five. We've also got opening at number six,

Free Willy 2, The Adventure Home. Sort the top five. We've also got opening at number six, uh, Free Willy to the Adventure Home. Sort of unnecessary sequel. He already... Necessary. He already was freed. Yeah, he hasn't gotten home yet. I guess. I remember even as a kid being like, I think we've told the Free Willys.

Like what I'm seeing in theaters. I was like, eh. What I was digging into the other day, unsurprisingly,y the animated series where they were like we got to raise the stakes On this so in free willy the animated series. There is like a league of Captain Planet esque villains There's like cyborg men who are like I hate the ocean Must be captured and this boy is still just like Willie jump but you got these guys with like drill submarines and lasers trying to attack Willie and you're

like the movie's just about a kid trying to get a big fish in a few... I hate the ocean. Yeah. I hate Willie. Number seven is Pocahontas, which every watch of my daughter, it still just does not hit for me. Look, I understand it is a deeply problematic movie. It's not just it's problematic.

It's very slow and stately. I think the songs are really good. The songs are nice. I like the songs about the whines. And it looks nice. Just around the river, Ben? Yeah, no, it's a good looking well. Should I marry Coco-um?

Yeah, but this is the thing. It doesn't have a lot of, you know, like, juice. It doesn't have juice. What about Coco-um? Who's, yeah, sure. The guy she's supposed to marry? Yeah, sure. It's like no one's really that fun, I don't know. Oh, so like, Flit and Miko aren't getting a rise out of you?

My daughter's briefly obsessed with Tarzan. Well, that one I don't get. It's so weird. Anyway, those very serious late 90s Disney movies. What's your Disney renaissance feeling overall, Heidi? Oh, definitely, yeah, that era. I mean, Robin Hood's my favorite, but definitely, yeah. Robin Hood or Jungle Book are my two.

Robin Hood and Beauty and the Beast are my two, but the Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast were just magical. Yes. And then I just, I tapered off around the Tarzan, Pocahontas. You're getting too old for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

My daughter's obsessed with Little Mermaid right now. She will not allow the scene where Ursula gets big to be shown to her, though. Interesting. Like, she saw that once and was like, like, truly, like, classic. But she tends to like villains, right? She loves Cruella.

She's obsessed with Ursula. Until. Because as long as she maintains a normal size. Her getting big is scary. It is scary She gets way too big and then they run her through with a ship, but she's not scared by Vanessa Which is Vanessa Vanessa's when Ursula becomes no she loves that because she's like what's she doing? And I think she's learning like trickery is like, you know being introduced her like she's tricking her. Yeah, yeah Eric whatever Indian in the cupboardboard, number eight.

A banger. Pretty good movie. A movie that rules. A movie we will cover on this podcast someday. Oh, will we? It's directed by... I don't remember. Frank Oz.

Oh, sure. Yeah. First Night, the serious King Arthur movie with Richard Gere and Sean Connery. Directed by David Zucker. One of the Zuckers. And number ten, the great Batman Forever, RIP, to Val Kilmer. That was ten? Well, it's been out for two months at this point.

It's made a healthy 170. It was like the big Memorial Day movie. And No Mad Love. No Mad Love. Where we drop is Mad Love. Mad Love is not even on the chart. So it probably left theaters within weeks. Can I tell you a formative thing that summer that was a Batman Forever thing?

Okay, so I would always see movies with Justin. My mom was like, you guys go together, Heidi's your younger sister. I'm nine years older than my sister, so I had a very similar dynamic where I was the Justin. Yes, and you're the responsible one and all this stuff. So I had seen Batman Forever the weekend that it opened with my best friend Ashley and her dad. Justin wanted to see it either that next week or that Sunday at Ward Parkway. And I was just like, I've already seen it.

And he's like, well, I guess you could see something else. We could split off. And so I went and saw Waterworld. He saw Batman Forever. Wow. We both agreed we weren't telling mom, you know? And then I let it slip that I went and saw, we both were just talking about two different movies

and she figured out, she was like, wait a second, you were in Batman Forever while your sister was in Waterworld, what the hell? And she got so mad at me and she said, do you know that you could have been sitting in that movie and someone could have come over to you with a needle and injected you with something and then we would have never seen you again.

What? Yeah, so like it was obviously a news story of the time. Yes, I do, sure, a panic. Yes. So Romilly, my little sister, would watch SNL with us, with my brother and I, even when she was young, and liked SNL a lot. And I guess she was probably... 11, maybe, when the MacGruber movie came out?

And I remember I was supposed to pick her from school and take her to see something. And there was probably some kid movie or teen movie that was like what we assumed we were gonna see. And I sort of said to her, I was like, this is my moment to be the cool brother. I think she's old enough. Where I was like, you know, Romlee, if you wanted to,

we could see Magroup. Love it. But you can't tell our parents. Yeah. I'll do this if you're cool about it. Because I was like, it's cool that she likes comedy. I was like, if she may be on the path to becoming a comedy nerd, she was not. But she was interested in seeing it.

And I took her to see MacGruber and had this kind of electrifying, watching her at 11 be like, oh my god, I can't believe I get to see these jokes. Sort of the inverse of my experience with my dad taking me to see something about Mary, which my mom never let him live down. Right. And then like four days later, this is when I've like, I'm out of the house, I'm, you know, not living with my parents. My mom calls me in a fury and says,

you exposed my daughter to McGroober? And I said, she told you and she went, she wouldn't stop singing the theme song during dinner. MacGruber! And I was like, Romilly. So good. How did you give this up? And also, it's on the show. You should have just lied and said, yeah, I know the song from the sketch. Yeah. She was just too excited. She just blew it. Yeah. Too excited. I get it. Little sister vibes. Yeah, that was always gonna happen. Yeah. MacGruber, RIP Valcomer.

Yeah, oh my gosh. Everything comes back to great guy. Yeah. Pass. Heidi, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Really love to have you.

What a dream. I'm glad. Is there anything else you wanna plug aside from Saturday Night Live? Saturday Night Live. Winsteads in Kansas City. Yeah, let's get our asses there. Let's just do Winsteads.

Steakburgers, it's been an establishment since I was a kid. Looks like the onion rings look pretty good to me. They're great. What's your go-to order? Cherry limeade. Oh, yeah. Just the regular limeade, which it has sherbet in it. And then, like a single steak burger with the 50-50. And the 50-50 is either fries and onion rings,

onion rings and tots, onion rings... Or tots and fries. I am all about that. Like, an onion ring something blend is great to me. Because, like, if I just get onion rings, I kind of feel insane if I just... I just come in. It's always more than I want if the plate is just that.

Tell me about their fry structure. They just have a thin fry. I like that. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. You know what? Winstead's has a steak fry. Winstead's has a steak fry that you always end up adding kosher salt to. They give you the pack and you salt it up. I think it's time for the steak fry to make a comeback. I think, you know what I mean, people aren't given a steak fry.

I'm disappointed every time. It's my least favorite. Yeah, it's my least favorite. I would say bring back a curly fry. Yeah, you know what? It's rare and amazing. Well, here's my thing with curly fries. If they are good, they're so good.

If they're like frozen curly fries, which they often are, you know what I mean? They're like, they're fine. If you can make a proper good curly fry, they're the best. I feel like I've seen the bag of frozen fries that's been in the fridge for a long time. They're so good. If they're like frozen curly fries, which they often are, you know what I mean? They're like, they're fine. If you can make a proper good curly fry, they're the best. I feel like I've seen the bag of frozen curlies that I'm like, no friend of mine's family ever bought those and neither did we.

So I haven't even had them. The onion curly fries. But certain restaurants you'll go to. And you're like, he seemed frozen. But I'm going to say this and I'm going to stand by this statement. I prefer a frozen curly fry to the world's best steak fry. But my thing with the steak fry is I'm like, I wanna see a good one.

There's gotta be a good one out there. Show me the good one. There's some reason this continues in our culture. Someone must have done this well at some point. The basket weave one is good. Oh, like the waffle fries? Yeah, waffles are the more technical. I put steak fry dead lowest.

Yeah, yeah. I look a good crunch. Even I put a potato wedge above it. The same, you know what, because steak fry is neither fish nor fowl. Go all the way, yeah, go all the way. Yes, exactly. Also referred to as a JoJo fry.

A JoJo fry. I don't know, in my college it was. Yes, they are potato wedges, sometimes known as JoJo fry. A JoJo fry? I don't know, in my college it was. Yes, they are potato wedges, sometimes known as JoJo fries. Interesting. In the Midwest. What are you looking up then? The Times recently did an article where the title is, Reviled or underappreciated edible spoons, America's least popular fry, but some chefs

are still devoted to them. About the steak fry. So there's people out there doing steak fries and trying to do them well. And also more importantly, New York Times is still committed to hard hitting journalism. Thank God. They're doing the work.

It looks like the Park Avenue kitchen does like a fancy steak fry with stuff on it. That's cool. I wanna see a regular steak fry, like blow my socks off. I don't know if it can happen. What are your favorite fries in New York? That's a really good question. Oh, um, okay, there's, these are just places that

SNL does the after-party and at the end of an SNL it's good to have fries. So La Avenue that's in Saksworth Avenue, they have a restaurant, their fries are really good. Um, Mermaid Oyster Bar, their fries are seasoned with Old Bay. Oh, that's great. I love that. I love Old Bay. That's good. Yeah. Lav and you, I feel like that's the, again, having just read the Lorne book, that's like where Lorne is always at a corner table

or whatever, right? Like that's where he has the big dinner. Uh-huh. Yeah. Are people reading the Lorne book at SNL or do they not want to be spot? Like are they putting like a fake book cover on it? I think a fake book cover. I'm reading it because I'm like, Jess! If I worked on the show, I'd be like, I have to read this book, but also I don't want to

be the person who's reading the book while I work here. I think it's one of those things that like you would read years later when you're doing it. Like I haven't seen the Saturday Night Movie because I just just be like being at work. Also, you're a big part in it in a weird way. In the... I'm joking. Okay would be funny if everyone in the Jason Ryder movie is like, you know, one day a girl called Heidi will walk through these doors.

We have a recurring bit about how that movie does so much compression of timeline of things that happened in the first five years of the show. That we're also like at one point they cut to a delivery room or Kenan's being bored. That they wanna call dibs on every single thing that happened over 50 years. Love that scene. So I'm just imagining like a scene in the movie where your parents go to SNL and they're like, we're thinking someday we'd name our daughter Heidi.

Many, many years from now. The deleted scene. It's a special feature. Yeah. Wow. Look at my kids. Look at them. Just got a picture of the twins.

What are their names? We're gonna believe this out. And Right, but on the podcast we call them Bebop and Rocksteady. Cool, I like that. That's the code name. Thank you for coming out. We're done. We're just chatting now. Ben left. He's the only one who can end the episode on a technical level.

I don't know, anything else? Yeah, Heidi, are you in a... Anything else. There's a big charity event I do in Kansas City. Oh, yes. Yeah, every end of May, early June called the Big Slick. Oh, okay. There's also Thunder Gong. Thunder Gong.

That's what I was thinking. Big Slick, we raise money for pediatric cancer at Children's Mercy Hospital. And it's a really fun event if you're thinking about coming to Kansas City. We play a celebrity baseball game at Kauffman Stadium. Hell yeah. It follows, a Royals game follows after, which is really fun. And then we do a big show at the T-Mobile Center. Last year, we have stand-ups like Jeff Ross, Fortune Feimster.

He did a roast, she did standup. Male Non-Johnny did standup. We did a Hot Ones challenge because the host of Hot Ones was there. Patrick Mahomes was throwing balls, signing footballs, throwing them into the audience to Travis Kelce. It's like so much fun to all raise money. And you're bringing like all the big shots at Kansas City together.

This is so exciting. Yeah, Rob Riggle started it, and then he got Paul Rudd and Jason Sudeikis in, then Eric Stone Street, David Keckner, and then they brought me in as a host. It is incredible that there's like such a good batch of generational... A powerhouse.

It's insane. Kansas City comedy all stars. Ham was just on the show, but he's St. Louis, right? Yes, but he's done the big slick. Yes, yeah. Is he a Royals fan now? Is he a Chiefs fan now? No, but he's St. Louis, right? He's from... But he's done the big slick, like, yeah. Is he a Royals fan? No. Is he a Chiefs fan? No. No, he's a Chiefs fan, but I bet he's a Cardinals fan. He's a Cardinals and Blues fan, but he's a Chiefs fan

because there's no Kansas City football team. No St. Louis. I mean, sorry, no St. Louis football team, yeah. I want to go to Kauffman Stadium. It's beautiful. Live show? David, you want to do a live podcast at Kauffman Stadium? You think we could fill Kaufman Stadium? I think we can.

Apparently it seats 37,000. Do you think we could do that? We can do that. Okay. There are still tickets available to our town hall. Yes. And that theater seats a little less than 37,000. I know my friend Austin in Kansas City is a blank check listener.

Shout out to Austin. Austin, thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode and we're done. Ben's gotta go to the dentist. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Loser. Ooh.

And as always, Ben has to go to the dentist because he broke his crown. Not my crown, I cracked my molar. Let's get him out of pain. Oh yes. Fuck, you think so? Maybe. You'll need something. Not my crown, I cracked my molar. Let's get him out of pain. He's gonna need a crown. Oh yes. Fuck, you think so? Maybe.

You'll need something. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Bardy-Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited byinas, and our associate producer is A.J. McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by A.J. McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Burch. Our theme song is by Lay Montgomery and the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Olly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick.

Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.