Blank Check with Griffin & David - Critical Darlings: Hamnet And The History Of Oscar Villains with David Sims

Episode Date: January 15, 2026

This week, we’re joined by David Sims as we orbit the Golden Globes and their Best Drama winner, Chloé Zhao’s Hamnet. In the vibes-based reality of awards season predictions, Hamnet has emerged as a potential spoiler to the season’s other favorites, including Paul Thomas Anderson’s One Battle After Another and Ryan Coogler’s Sinners. But what, exactly, makes something an Oscar villain? We also get into the film itself, the historical Shakespeare, why people are weird about Chloé Zhao, and our predictions for next week's Oscar nominations. Subscribe to Richard's newsletter, Premiere Party, and read Alison's work at Vulture. Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the award season conversation. One contender at a time. Please welcome to this stage, your hosts, Richard Lawson and Allison Wilmore. Thank you, Marie. Thank you. Did you guys watch the Golden Globes on Sunday? I assume we all did, right? I sure did. Yeah.

Yeah. I thought they did pretty, they were pretty good. I don't know. Like Nikki Glazer is fun, right? I do really like her. Yeah, I feel like they need her so desperately to. to preserve whatever energy is left from those awards. They need to get rid of the TV awards.

They need to get rid of the TV award. This is exactly my take. You're watching Emmy speeches from four months ago. Noah Wiley bless his sweetheart is like, I'm so humbled. I'm like, no, you're not. Not anymore. You got humbled. Like, I buy you being humbled the first time.

Like, when you won the Emmy, this is not humbling. All the adolescents people go up on stage and are like, all right, what do I say this time? This is my eighth speech for this. I was saying this to my wife. like, I swear they won these last year. Like, on a Bible, they won the Golden Globe last year, please. I do enjoy the visual of Jack Thorne and Stephen Graham

standing next to each other. Like, when they hugged and he was like, it was like, Gandalf and Hobbit kind of like visuals. I do really like that. Stephen Graham was acting like an usher. He was like, yeah, yeah, I've done this. All right, it's you this time. He was standing up, giving everyone, like, their marching orders.

Like, I just, they have to stop doing TV, period. Yeah, no. Keep the podcast thing. That's saucy. Sure. And then what did they lose the box office thing? That's like really, they got to get rid of that right away.

That thing is really embarrassing for them. So this is my first. Okay. Oh, okay. Yes. How did you feel? Well, I was a little confused because some things I had no idea what was normal. So please tell me, the box office award is new.

It's a third year. Yeah. And then the thing that was very confusing was the polymarket and the. That is new. That was my idea. Well, that was my idea. Well, they used to do that in the 40s. There would be a guy with a bow tie who would be like,

ah, in the lead right now. Because the Golden Globes used to be a Churchill down. Right, right. And then everyone would have to race, and it was exciting. It was more athletic than normally would associate with acting awards. But I think it was good for fitness, you know.

That is new, and hopefully, that was a one-off. Do you know, I also, like, that in combination with, like, Mark Malkin's, like, weird kind of, like, plummy voice where it sounds like he's kind of talking around a mouthful of something. I don't know why they did the, I do know why it was, like, corporate synergy. the live kind of commentating, but like, I hated that.

But also that, when he, like, accommodation with him being like, and here are the Polly Market, you know, like, odds for the best podcast award. You're like, what is this? It's so close to, like, Pan Am Hunger Games. Like, it was a little dystopia. But it's also, it was, it spoiled every award that I was. Yeah, because they were all, like, 96%. Yeah, they're all like, oh, Ricky Jervase is going to win.

And I was like, oh, I hadn't thought about it, but okay. I guess Polly Market says so. And they were right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, and I also, I just. So, like, you know, CBS now owned by David Ellison of Skydance.

I think he was just like, well, I mean, this is a live event. It should be sports, you know. Yes. But it's like, I don't think that the people who are going to bet on Polymarket are watching the golden globes. I mean, am I wrong? I'm sure they're someone's been. I don't know. I feel like it's not even like, oh, this is like illuminating.

I think it was just like, we want to take money from Polymarket. And also we're going to pretend that this introduces. like this, the fact that there's like a large conversation about the globes, you know, and that like everyone is out there just being like monitoring like the little currents of it. Yeah. Which, you know, makes me want to introduce my rubric. Okay. How real are these awards?

Award real. This is the eternal question of golden globes. Are these specific awards? Are we doing all precursor gold globes? We have applied it on a case so far through one or two other things. But I feel like that is the key question. of the Golden Globes. And like, obviously, from an awards show production perspective, they are very real. Like, they are in a fancy place. Everyone wears gowns. And pretty much everyone

shows up. Everyone shows up, except for people who are like, you know, yeah, or like people who are like rehearsing a play somewhere or something like that. And yeah, like in terms of like glitz and in terms of professional looking, aside from the polymarket thing, professional looking production, it is very real. And it has a distinct identity as opposed to the Oscars. The big difference was it's a dinner. So a lot of times winters would go up on stage, clearly having had a few drinks. Not that they don't drink at the Oscars, by the way, but, you know, the convivial

atmosphere of it. But the joke on the globes for pretty much since its inception was, it was the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. It was like anywhere between 70 and 90 people, depending on how you asked, who were all these like weird journalists who lived in L.A., but were

writing for foreign outlets, who just had the weirdest most, like, venal taste ever. Like, they could be bribed. They would just want a big celebrities to show up to their awards. So they gave like Angelina Jolian award for the movie The Tourist. Like they were like really. I think she only gave her a nomination. Oh, did she not win?

I don't think she won. Okay. The nomination is embarrassing enough. Piazadora, right? Piazadora is the one who was bought and paid for. Yeah. That was the classic. I remember there was a big scandal a few years ago and then they reformed and now it's

semi more legitimate, I guess. It's a larger voting body and I suppose a more diverse one. But also like, I don't feel like there's. much transparency at all about who makes up that voting money. So it's like larger. Like like, yeah, one of the criticisms was that these like, I think it was like 75 people. It was about 80. Like it was a shockingly small group of people making these decisions. Yeah, that it was like really like woefully lacking in terms of diversity. Yeah, in addition to the kind of like general era of scusiness. So there was a kind of campaign about like against that. There was, uh, what the acquisition happened. The

clubs are bought by Penske Media. Yep. Um, also for a while, as part of that deal, the like leftover members, original members, were getting paid $75,000 a year for like five years. That was a deal. And then after like a year or two in, he was like, no, we're not going to do that. Right. Try suing us. Yes.

Yeah. So some of those original members are left. There's a bunch of other ones. We're not really sure who they are. But it's still like a really kind of poorly defined. Like the idea that these are like meaningful from a perspective of like, these are people we know and trust or these or people in the industry who have a lot to say about our colleagues. Yes, sure.

It's unclear. It is, right. Again, if you're Noah Wiley, you're taking an Emmy, you're like, this is from, ostensibly, my industry peers. Like, that's nice. Oscars are that. A critics award is like, okay. Like, you know, the Globes, of course everyone is dutifully like, thank you to the Hollywood foreign press. Yeah.

But no one ever says, like, it just means so much that, like, the August, you know, minds of the Hollywood foreign press recognize me. What they should say, because there's moments like when Colin Farrell won for In Bruges in a moment I think about all the time.

He won best actor. Is they should get up there and be like, this is great for my career. Like, here I am. Totally. I'm in a suit. You maybe had forgotten

about me for a few years, but everyone's remembering that I gave a nice little performance. Thank you. And I'm holding a golden thing in my hands. You can use it in trailers, Golden Globe winner, Colin Farrell.

You can. Until you get an Oscar nomination, Daniel, but I mean, like, that's all anyone should really say is like, this is great for my career. or this will really help me along in the Oscar race.

This is a great chance for me to train, like, myself on a speech or whatever. Well, and also the Golden Globes speeches are coming during nominations voting. Yes. So if there was someone who was maybe on the bubble, the academy nominators see them at the Globes and are like, yeah, sure, we'll put them in. You know, I don't know how often that actually works. I just, look, when they died, when the Globes, like, went bottom up. And, right, didn't happen for a year. Maybe they put out a press release one year.

Maybe, yeah. Yeah. Like, I was like, they'll never come back because, like, no one can argue for their existence and this is ridiculous. And, like, surely the SAG Awards or the Critics Street, you know, someone else will just kind of be like, what are your new gloves?

Same vibe. You know, we're the precursor. There can be one televised precursor that maybe people care about. Yeah. And they all just kind of blew it, and the globes were just like, we're back and everyone was like,

oh, sure, fine. Well, because there was also this principled stand that a lot, because, like, some people are like, I refuse to acknowledge the Golden Globes, right? Because the scuttle about the HFPA was that not only were they shockingly not diverse and sort of these old out of touch weirdo people. They were also letcherous and gropey and like really bad. And so talent hated them, but they would have to be brought in front of them because the globes mattered or whatever.

And the publicists hated them because they would have to bring their talent and, you know, whatever. And then when this thing happened, the scandal happened, all the talent and publicists were like, great. We don't think of those assholes ever again. They took the principled stand about it. And then a year later they were like, oh, never mind. Well, everyone's showing up. There just needs to be something. Yeah.

And this, I guess, can be the something. Yeah. You know, I feel like if the Critics Choice Awards had pulled together maybe better location and also, like, not serving airplane food. Maybe they could have kept in there more. They even took the date, I think, once, like the year. They tried the date one. My theory about that, though, is the word critics. I agree.

I agree. They should be called something. Oh, they should have been called. Or just like, what's another golden thing? You know, like, right. Well, I would, I mean, at this point, I would like to shout out to my favorite fake awards. The Golden Soutly. No, the Astra Awards.

Oh, what's that one? I mean, I hear about that, but I don't know what they are. Yes, it was started by the Hollywood Critics Association, which was the Los Angeles Online Film Critics Association. Right. And then they became the Hollywood Creative Alliance because they, too, understood that. The word critics. Critics. Critics is kind of a nasty word.

Or whatever. It just suggests a more upper crust, you know, not like. for everybody vibe. And whereas the golden, imagine, the whole globe is represented on that statue. All humans live on it. And it's golden. And it's heavy.

You can tell when people create... They always say it's heavier than an Oscar. Yeah, and I'm like, you know, these are all the things that go into confirming the authenticity of an award. Is it heavy? Yeah. You know, is it on TV? I think it's... I guess so.

I think it matters for the Oscar purposes, but also like if the Globes exist it would be weird for someone's campaign if they just were sort of absent from that ceremony if they didn't show up it would be a little bit anything

it's happened before where like someone has gone on to win an Oscar and they had no presence at the Globes and it was like Mark Rylans wasn't at the Golden Globes was he?

I don't know. I don't know. But like I just think if you're investing in the narrative your narrative of a given season you got to go

and that's why they'll always get out. Wait so are you a fan of the podcast awards. No, I think the podcast awards, I know there's the I Heart Radio ones, and there's a couple other sort of, I think there needs to be some sort of a winnowing

and like whatever. Maybe then there can be like an actually prestigious prime, but I think it's mostly just like, I shouldn't say this, I'll never win one, but like you just, it's just a way to get money out of podcasts, right? Because you have to pay to apply. Oh, yeah.

You need to apply. And only, I think it was only 20 or so podcast, even submitted. Right. So the five nominees were like the top, you know, 25% of anyone who is eligible. The argument for doing it is that podcasting is more important than like live TV at this point, right?

But the Golden Globes don't give out a live TV award, so it's not like it's replacing that. It was just, it was kind of smart of them. I'll kind of give it up to them that they're just like, someone different, but probably famous, will take the stage. Well, that's the question. I mean, it's funny to think of a world which NPR's up first won that award.

And then in the middle of this, they were coming up and being like... Did they go? I'm sure they were there. I hope they went. But I think, I mean, I feel like the thing that they were trying to get at is, like, celebrity podcast awards. They can't call it that. And it is funny that they had, like, you know...

It was just funny when people, like, are they going to nominate all the right-wing podcast? And I'm like, no, they're going to nominate the podcast hosted by famous people, which is fine. That's what the Golden Clubs are for. Yeah. I don't... You know, it's always hilarious when, like, Isabel Opaire, when... I'm trying to think of, like,

memorable globes moments. Aaron Taylor Johnson winning Best Supporting Actor for Internal Animals was a weird one. Horrendous performance. But like, you know, like, I'm trying to think of, because it's like, if you want the Globes to exist, you should remember great moments at the Globes, which I do not.

I mean, I remember Oprah's speech when she won the Cecil B. DeMille Award about Times Up and Me Too. That was a good moment, but that had nothing to do with the competitive awards. I feel like they are usually a fun watch. You know, they are because they're a little. They're a little tipsy. They're a little looser.

TV stuff stinks. Yeah, the TV stuff stinks. And it's also like, I don't know. Maybe also everyone's a little too careful now. Though I did enjoy that visual of Champon smoking a cigarette in the room, despite that will definitely cement his... Glazer went on stern. She goes on Stern every year after and reads the jokes she didn't want it,

like they were too saucy. And she had a great run of Penn stuff that was just so funny. One of them was from David Spade was like, I think he took the substance wrong. Which I interested you know that's really a last year joke But it was so funny There God bless him for being like

I'll come to your show Yeah like but I won't be interrupting anything else about I look like I just got hit by lightning Yeah It was good I enjoyed that Can I ask a very basic question Yes

I'm sure the people have run the numbers Is there some statistical correlation or not between like being nominated or winning a globe and then getting nominated or winning an Oscar. It's like high. The globes exist to predict the Oscars. I don't think they

influence the Oscars that heavily. They exist to try to predict them. Yeah. And the backlash against that sort of notion was always like well it's these 80 freaks like there's no overlap with the Academy. Right. How could that happen? But it's just like it's just this whole season is winnowing down the

movies and the performances that are at the you know so i think it's more coincidence in a way that the winners often match up so closely the great fun of the globes to oscar's conversion is because the acting categories are split comedy musical and drama so you see a year where like um what was it chastain won for zero dark 30 in drama sure but musical comedy went to jennifer lawrence for one for silver linens playbook So they went into that Oscar evening being like, well, there's actually a case to be made for both Chastain winning and Lawrence, and then you see how that shakes out. But this is my problem sometimes with, say, Hamnet, which I know we're going to talk about a little bit, winning best drama, where people are like, well, now it's a race. And I'm like, they don't suspend that award if the other award went to the favorite.

Right. You know, they're not like One Battle One, and you know what? One Battle is so good that we won't be handing out Best Picture Drama. Now, I don't know why Bowen Battle's a comedy. The comedy thing is getting so bad because Hollywood gave up on comedies. And so now one battle in Marty Supreme are comedies, which I really don't agree with. And people have told me I'm stupid. They say I'm stupid to me in the street.

Oh, I'm sorry. Well, that shouldn't. And I apologize. Those are movies with lots of funny things happening. But I'm like, those movies have dramatic engines to me. Yeah. I mean, they are definitely closer to comedy. Like funnier than Hamlet.

Fine. But, you know, Apatow is up there complaining about the Martian. The Martian is funnier than either of those movies. And lighter. Yeah. Yeah, the Martian thing I was like, I get what the sort of gripe about that is. But that is a lighter tone, except I guess the end is more serious. But it's a bouncy, zippy movie or whatever. And one battle does begin with, like, you know, detention camps being liberates.

Sure. Could we fill out, like, five nominees if we're just like, no, we're going to do like hard comedy? We could, but the Globes don't want to nominate the naked gun and they don't want to nominate. I mean, like, movies like twin-less or oh-high that I didn't even like that much, but like went over pretty well. Yeah. I'm trying to think of like other comedy. Yeah, one of them days was a really good movie this year. I mean, why not nominate that?

You could sort of put Sorry Baby in there. Sorry Baby for sure. Yeah. Materialist, no. Wait a second. It seems to be a romantic comedy. Well, yeah. Honestly, 15, 20 years ago.

Yeah, she might have been in there. She might have been in there. Instead, she was in the control booth being like, I think we should have a map. of where everyone sits and you see where they are in a dark room rather than a picture of their face. That's a good idea, right? And everyone's asleep. I'm doing an L.O. McKay, but I know no one watched L.A.

And everyone loves it. Everyone relates to the L.M.K. You're nuts about it. I saw it with you, too, at the Disney screening room. You two were like asleep behind me. I had like a little pen and being like, this is kind of charming. Your eyes were like wide and glimmering. You're doing that one, my horn every time someone said something.

It was a bit. Every time someone said something, that would be tough. People say a lot of things in that movie. Yeah, I don't think you didn't get my, when I leaned over to Esther during the IOC and was like, is this going to be a murder suicide? It does briefly. It feels like it could go in that direction. Yeah. Look, there's attention to the scene.

I was on the end of my seat. Maybe Brooks is finally going to real. Because that kid, whatever his name, I forgot his name. Spike Fern. Sure. He is playing it like, I'm not in control of my emotions. And I always playing it like, what are you doing? With a change in score in music,

it would be a whole different scene. But yeah, we were talking about like, the globe is mattering, whatever. I think that the reason I saw at least some people being worked up about the Globes as Oscar predictor this year was because, yes, one battle, one best comedy, and that is the presumed frontrunner for Best Picture.

Right. But Hamnet beat sinners. Yes. And I think people really want it to be understandably. a one battle versus sinners kind of race to the finish. But then Hamnet has been this thing, this kind of wedge all season long.

But would Hamnet have one best drama if sinners had not had this dumb other category that those dumb voters filled with golden brained heads had been like, well, I already voted for it and doesn't that count as a best picture too? And so Coogler gets up in the middle of the night and in the middle of the show is like, thank you.

And they're like, all right, get out of here. You know, like, and like, it's embarrassing for them because it would be, here's my pitch I pitched this to Katie Rich or friend like you can't get nominated in cinematic and box office if you're nominated in Best Picture right.

It was all out. Because then F1 wins or whatever and everyone's happy. But I also like, it's still unclear to me what that award is supposed to be. Of course it doesn't make any sense. You're like, these are good movies that made a lot of money

as opposed to be other good movies that like yeah, like the distinction is so especially because K-pop Demon Hunters was nominated which barely refers. reported grosses. It doesn't make any sense. It's so silly.

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may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms. That kind of leads us into our like bigger topic of this week, which is like the idea of an Oscar villain and it does feel like Hamnet, because of this sort of, it's Hamnet versus sinners thing, has become that.

I think it was anointed that all the way back. Well, Joe Reed for Wulcher wrote a piece in early November, looking at how the early festival stuff was shaking out. And I remember I had this conversation with Sean Fennacy, another Oscar watcher friend, where I was like, one battle's going to take it, right? And he was like, I don't know, like Marty Supreme One Battle, Sinners, these movies, you know, they're not identical, but they may be having. a similar appeal and maybe Hamnet

kind of splits through them like you know because Hamlet's giving you something different and I think I made a noise like so that would suggest that I considered it a bit of an Oscar villain yeah and I doesn't always have to be an Oscar villain sometimes I feel like some years we kind of force

that narrative on things that don't really merit it. Do you define what an Oscarville what was the Oscar villain like the Oppenheimer year like was there one because that was another kind of juggernaut. I feel like some people would say it was often I think some people would say it was there You shut up. But everyone was riding so high on the Barbenheimer thing

that everyone was just happy that they... Right. Cinema was alive. We all win. Right. I mean, well, I think also, like, two Richards' point before about the Golden Globes influencing the Oscars. Like, there is this point where you're like, oh, this is all vibes also.

You know, like the numbers are. Poor things were the Oscar villain that year. I just remember. Oh, that's a good point. That's the answer. So I feel like the Oscar villain is something where the public and the media is convinced that this, A film is going to win and spoil, like, the narrative that we like, really. I mean, I feel like that's basically when it comes down to.

And maybe it's undeserving, though oftentimes it's more just like it's a boring pick, right? Like, it fits into a tradition of an older Oscar movie that may or may not exist, but, like, that we feel is, like, the safe, predictable option, whereas we're always sort of rooting for, like, the Oscars to do something that confirms our own taste instead. I think there's that. I think there's now also, I have, and I think you guys might have, this concern of, like, the Oscars need to be relevant to continue to justify their existence at this point. It's no, no, no, this August body is handing out. It's like, no, no, the Oscars have to stay in the conversation. And if they're handing out Hamnet Best Pictures, that's a step back for them.

Because 90% of people in, this is my, you know, vibe, you know, take. Like, I might be wrong. But 90% of people are like, the fuck is hand-knit? And like... It was interchangeable with Hamlet back at the time. And there's kind of, of course, I think to a lot of Oscar watchers who grew up,

you know, I grew up watching the Oscars in the 90s, as you guys did, where it was hanging over the Oscars at that point that they had fucked up giving Paul Newman the Oscar too late, giving Pacino the Oscar too late, that they'd never given... Right, that there were all these mistakes.

And so then when a sort of like silly Oscar room would happen, it would be like, yeah, well, they're fixing. their mistake. And so when something like PTA makes this big movie and it's sort of like time for him to win, I also have this thing like, you can't, don't just, just do it. Then you'll, then you won't regret anything. Then like it's fine. Like, then you handled that. Yeah. You gave a very, very important generational director, an award for his best or one of his best movies. Chloe Zhao has an Oscar. We don't have to make this mistake, but I'm sure there's some voters who are like, but the globe,

the Shakespeare's globe and the death and the suffering. And I cried. I cried, right? And it's the little movie that could or whatever. I mean, I don't know. Also, it's funny because I feel like for, like, so much of my memory of paying attention to the Oscars in more recent years, like, the narrative has been, like, they keep giving these awards to movies that no one has seen, right? Right, that's right. Like, the box office for the, like, the winners has gotten smaller and smaller and smaller.

And so we're like, oh, does anyone even know what this movie is? Like, like, you know, like when you tell someone, Best Picture went to blah, blah, blah, like a person on the street. Right, Pota, which, well, that's especially weird year. Yeah. or like I think people were like moonlight right like you're like like if you ask someone passing by because like the box office for that movie was so small at the time compared to like I mean these lawland compared to also what we used to think about like yeah yeah and so I feel like this is a weird year in particular because we're like wait there is like a kind of critically beloved but like also like this movie with like big cultural footprint that people are fighting over that has like not been an enormous financial hit but it's It certainly has made much more money than, like, a lot of other recent winners.

Got people to theaters to see a movie that's challenging, that has a movie star and it, yaddy, yada. It is, like, commercial-ish as well. Yeah. Yeah. I think the Oscar villain, to me, like, it really developed in, like, social media era, obviously, because, like you said, it's vibes. And I think there are two peak years of it. Okay. I mean, I know two years.

I know what they are. One is 2017 when three billboards outside of Ebbing, Missouri, was threatening to win best picture over Lady Bird, get out, and Shaped Water ended up winning. And Del Toro basically saved that year because it was looking like three billboards which has frequent use of the N-word

and kind of plays fast and loose with other sort of offensive things and people really were rallying against that movie. And then a couple years later, Parasite was seen as the underdog to 1917, a stately war movie. What was the other movie in

2019? Because I remember 1917 came on late and it was oh it was Irishman I guess and then I'm trying to think like that was such a weird Oscar well there was Joker little women Right so it was like a very fraught year And the Tarantino there was a Tarantino there was a Tarantino

And there was the Tarantino which I was sort of like Do you want to do that? Because like you know it's about Hollywood You know made a lot of money But they seemed a little and then 1917 came along and there was that fear That they were just like Ah world war one We can all agree

And like that it was going to be this boringish winner I mean the truth look there's two classic Oscar villains of pre-internet, which is Shakespeare in Love and Crash. Yeah. And Shakespeare in Love is an unfairly maligned villain that was unfortunately gotten best picture by a very fairly maligned villainous person, Harvey Weinstein. But the movie itself is wonderful, in my opinion. I've rewatched it recently.

I think it's great. Like, is it the best picture of an incredible year that is 1998? And like, maybe not, but it is one of the best pictures. It's a worthwhile. Crash is the... Crash and Green Book are both these movies that shook the Oscar

you could tell, shook the voting body up where they were like, oh, what did we do? Like, they woke up the next morning being like, do we really do Green Book? Let's do Parasite next year. Blood on their pants. Like, yeah.

We maybe got out of hand there. Maybe we got a little too grumpy about like, you know, the backlash to the backlash. And like, next year let's do parasite. Because what's crash is 05? Yeah, beats broke back. Next year is the departed.

They're like, I'm sorry. Yeah, sorry. We're cool. We're cool. And also we're cool. We swear we're cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, but also, like, we're, like, like, the same thing with the Barbie Oppenheimer year and this year, where we, you know, like, every time they're like, are we going to save the Oscars by being like, we have to give Avengers Doomsday Best Picture, you know, like something like that.

You're like, what's do it this year, honestly, whatever. So, like, you actually, like, have this year, like, like, these movies that really were, like, bigger movies that also are, like, a tourist movies and also, like, are kind of, like, commercially, you know, like, viable. And so it feels like the idea of Hamnet kind of creeping in that. and winning that is like part of the weight on it, you know, of just being like, wait, we're actually, this is the thing that we said we wanted, you know, all along. Movies that are like, that feel like they're the product of like a real artistic vision, but that are also like, people wanted to watch them. And if they veer towards being like, no, we're going to give this kind of like very serious historical drama, you know, that it's just, I don't know what you guys thought of Hamlet. I assume we should talk about it. It's a movie that like, fundamentally at the end, I was kind of like, ah, it didn't, it didn't click for me.

Because the whole movie is about kind of like... Building to this big end where it's like, and now do you see? And I was like, I actually am feeling a little grumpy. But most of the movie is suffering. It's just so much suffering. And, you know, it's like human relatable suffering. It's not like, it's not really over the top, I guess. Right?

But it is... You could make the argument that it is. It's a little unrelenting. Yeah. And it's that kind of movie. Like, you really have to earn my interest if it's going to be heavy on suffering. And I never quite felt that it had earned my interest. I will say also, like, I rewatched it.

You rewatched it recently. I rewatched it yesterday. I'm like, the suffering is, like, it dominates the second half of the movie. Right. But, like, the first half of the movie is just like, this is their marriage. The first act, I think, is that. Right. Is the woods and the trees and the...

Yes. The... The horror. Man. Don't forget that. Yes. And the hand fasting. And then the...

That's what I like. Yeah. And it's fine. But I... But I wasn't like, you know, like eyes dazzling. Like, this is so swoony and brilliant. I was like, I was intrigued. Yeah.

I mean, so the book that Hamnet is based on by Maggie O'Farrell. I read the first 14 pages before this on an e-pub. So I very well were us to talk about it. It notably does start with a scene that is almost exactly halfway through the movie, which is young Hamnet, who is the 11-year-old son of... Billy Shakes. Yeah, Billy Shakes.

And his wife, Ann Hathaway, who was in The Dark Night Rise. Yeah. Right. And that's in the film. That Nolan comes at one point. It's like, I want you to be Catwoman. And she's like, okay. Would you want to become Jane?

Yeah, it was an unexpected cinematic universe, but I pulled it off. Yeah, she's Agnes in the film. She was sort of interchangeably Agnes or Anne Hapelike. So Hamnet goes out to look for his mother because his sister is sick. Yes. So this is, and that's not a big scene in the movie. It's like kind of the start of things tipping, right? But like in the book, he like keeps looking for everyone and no one's around and his mother's not around.

And that's something that will start to cause her guilt like afterwards, that she was like not there for this moment where probably she could not have changed what happened. But that she was like, you know, she wasn't there for him. But that's halfway through the movies. You know, like to tell this story chronologically, the story that is, you know, about grief still. I feel like that just it sets me up in a way that like just was totally ineffective for me

like in terms of if it had to just to just be like mean Agnes she lives in the woods everyone thinks she's kind of weird except for this one guy who thinks she's pretty cool and guess what his name is

and guess what he likes to do and their parents are mad but then they're like okay you crazy kids and then you know well because I have had the book read to me by Jesse Buckley she recorded against your will

yeah yeah no she recorded a new audio version of it and I listened to it for something and it's it's a beautifully written book right but but what you're saying about like how it is it starts in Medias Reyes with where and we're in Hamnet's head and we're we're feeling for this scared kid and who's trying to help his sister and then when you get to the courtship of the two it's it's a streamy lilt back into the past kind of and the problem I mean I like the ending of Hamlet but and that it kind of makes sells the movie to me. But

the problem with all that the stuff cut that comes before it is like, I don't really know this kid. Yeah, exactly. Which jupe is he? Jacoby. Jacobi.

Yeah, Jacoby Jupe. Has like a great little face. Like that little kind of perfectly round, like looks like the kind of face that you would see in a painting, like where a little kid is like dressed in like a, you know, weird like to balloon.

Like a ruffle collar. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, perfect face for that. It's very good. But yeah, like, I was like, I don't know this kid. Like, like, you know.

because also so much of the way the movie in setting up chronologically is like this is a story of a marriage, right? Like, and of, in particular, this marriage to someone who, spoilers, becomes a really well-known playwright. We call them computers. It feels like the balance is off, you know?

I think that to be like, oh, by the way, this is a movie about grief, but we're going to start by being much more about this is a movie about this marriage. It's a huge problem. Yeah, it's, I think, something that just makes me feel totally not a tab. to what does happen.

I think what, just a little spoiler alert for the ending. We're going to talk about the ending in the movie. Hey, Ben from the editing booth here. If you want to remain spoiler-free for Hamnet,

then you can skip forward about 12 and a half minutes. We get back to more general discussion of the film, Oscar villainy, and our Oscar predictions after that. I do think a core question

with Hamnet is what is Hamlet about? And the answer, ultimately, is, well, actually it's about the play Hamlet and our take on what that's about. Right. And that's not suggested in most of the movie.

Most of the movie is about Agnes, obviously, and her relationship to the place she lives, the man she marries, the kids she has. And that's true to the book as well, where it's... Right. Yeah. And then she goes to see a play. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I felt like I lost that character when she went to see the play. Yeah.

And I was already kind of just like, look, I have three children, two of whom are twins. Yeah. And then an older daughter, which I believe is the configuration Shakespeare was in. His twins were different genders. I have two boys. But apart from that. So I certainly was not like super eager to watch the movie about one of the twins dying of the bubonic play. Right.

Like, and this is a movie with a lot of like child and sort of, you know, just general kind of like. human suffering, like Anne Lee, and if I had legs. Like movies, a lot of movies that I liked, but certainly movies where I'm like, die my love, right? Where I'm like, okay, got to sort of like gird myself for this one. But this was the one that's certainly trying to put you in the, like, headspace of, like, parents losing their child.

This is very hard. Like, in a way. But I actually couldn't connect to the movie very much. So it actually did not really lance me like I thought it might. Yeah, yeah. The ending works for me not really almost at all. as a comment on the grief that Agnes and William Shakespeare are feeling. What I like about it is you are witnessing the birth of one of the most enduring pieces of art ever.

I like anything with Shakespearean language. I like to see the globe. I like to think about how the plays were produced back then. All that is so interesting to me. Yeah. But also just like... Now, if there was a lady going like, who's he? Why is he called?

She's not allowed to come to anymore. She's terrible. After I saw it again yesterday, I left a voice note. for a friend that was like, did you guys hear what happened of the show yesterday? So the boss's wife shows up. She's never seen a play before.

And then at the end, she grabs one of the actors. Yeah. No, but I just think that you're watching this personal tragedy transfer into a shared thing that will endure for half of a moment.

Which is so interesting. And I think that's really moving. But then you kind of, I left the theater in tears for a second time. I also got down the block and then was like, wait. But the red. the movie that is behind that ending is not really adding up to that ending.

So I had that feeling, and then I also was walking and I was like, but I feel like Hamlet might not be about that. Now, it's fine for them to just be like, well, we think it is. Like, we think that Shakespeare was processing his grief in writing Hamlet. Is it a little annoying that they were like, for example, his child was called Hamlet. And also, there's ghosts in Hamlet and stuff. And people die. Ghosts are death.

And I'm like, and anything else? And they were like, to be or not to be? And I'm like, I don't know if you sold me on that. Yeah. Well, the arithmetic of, and she even says it. Anya says it in that final scene where Shakespeare himself comes out as Hamlet's father, as the ghost. And she's like, oh, he switched places with our boy or whatever. And you're like, right, but that doesn't really track because then Hamlet does also die.

So that was two people are dead. I wanted to watch her, watch, like, you know, like watch all his plays. Yeah. Like, Jesus, a lot of dying. It also doesn't really, like, address the fact that Shakespeare, like, many of us. his plays was dealing with an old, old myth as the documentary The Northman shows us. Yeah. Like, the Hamlet story was around hundreds of years prior to Shakespeare's day. So, like, was he just grafting his son's death onto this extant myth?

It sort of feels like if Macbeth had been called Hamlet instead of McBath, we might be watching Macbeth. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Right. Or the trailer. Yeah. No, the movie definitely, like, plucks a few scenes that is like, here we go. Let's ignore the rest of the play. because there's a lot of other stuff going on. It's like, I hate how my mom is fucking my uncle. But she walked in the notes, she's being like, now I don't know how this connects. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Now, Polonius, is that Emily Watson in my life? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Isaac Butler at Slate wrote a great piece about this. It's really great. It's like a lot more with the whole of the play and all of that. And I thought that was great. Like, honestly, I don't mind the fudging in theory. In theory, I could be on board with it.

Right, absolutely. But I do feel like, I mean, I feel like that scene loses me also because I'm just like what we, what like the final act becomes, which is what I think the whole movie should have been to like really make this worth is like these two people who cannot communicate about the fact that they are both grieving, but they grieve in very different ways. Right. And because we're like grounded in Agnes who is like played by Jesse Buckley as this like kind of incredibly like almost like feral like. Yes. Her like creature of nature. Yeah.

Her emotions are like so right there on the surface. Like she does not. She's a wonderful actor. I adore her. And I feel like she's capable of that kind of like, feral, like this like kind of like electric performance in a way where, yeah, like even when you're like, why does she not understand what a play is? She's been married to a playwright for like years and years and years.

Like, why is she coming in there being like, why do they say my son's name? What is going on here? Like what are they talking about? Like, like sitting next to someone's like kind of like, like grandmother who has like is a little heart of hearing and like is like, what are they talking about? I don't understand. And in a Sunday matinee on Broadway, is that? Who's this? Now, what's he doing?

Yes. Now, this whole play is about chess? Now, which of them play chess? Sorry, you guys got to see chess. I would love to see chess. I can't believe you guys. No one has offered to bring me a long to see chess. I'll bring you.

Let's go. We'll go back. It's all go to chess. Yeah. And we'll meet here next week. Just talk about chess. Screw the Oscar nomination. And I think he's also, I think that Paul Meskell is very good in this as well.

And he has, like, the harder role because he's gone for a lot of the time. But also, like, he, like, is, we see him. We see him through Jesse Buckley's character a lot of the time, and she does not understand him. Like, she is not seeing his grief. You know, like, she is not understanding that he is wrestling with it in his own way by, like, then trying to funnel it into this work of, you know, literature and art. Well, she thinks he's off in London, Tripp in the Light, Fantastic. Yeah. Because, you know, London at that time, you know, late 16th century, what a fun place to be.

But this is something else that drove me nuts. The sort of, like, married with children thing where she's, there's sort of the implication. Like, well, you're always gone. And I'm like, it's the 16th century. People don't think that way. Right. Like, it's not like, I need you home with the kids. No, like, that wasn't how things worked back then.

He was making money and that was what was. Yes, and like half of his life was touring, which I think, I mean, like, again, this isn't a Shakespeare biography, but, like, it is so interesting that, like, London would get the plague. And it would be like, all right, then we're going on tour. And he would tour around the country with whatever group he was in. But like that, like, what she thinks is going on in his life in London and, like, how much she cares about that is, like, unclear. Very unclear and largely untouched on. Yeah. Like, in the movie, she refuses to come.

She just is like, no, we have to stay out here because, like, this is best for my children and all of that. Well, she thinks he's, like, just kind of yucking it up. A body fool. Right. And that, like, he's, like, living in some swank place out there. Going nightclubs and fancy restaurants. Right, right. I mean, like, if she is, like, they're shocked when they see him living in an addict, right?

Like they're like kind of a really nice studio. I know. I was like, you know, that would run you like $5,000 a month. Especially the ones in the South Bank. I mean, this was really fancy. And in a way, you watch the beginning of the movie and you're like, couldn't it just be this? I'd be fine with this for 90 minutes. I'd be interested by, but knowing that it's building toward this thing.

It's now, it then starts to feel a little bit cruel because you're like, why are we sit? Why are we all sitting? Well, I'm defining this character by this thing that happened to her, this person, by the loss of her child. and the first by the horrendous labor that she, we assume, went through and then the loss of her child. Again, all we know is that he had a son who died. Like, literally, the Shakespeare facts are so,

it's this much. It's like barely anything. Are you... They know almost nothing about her. And we know nothing about her except her and that she was older. And there's the famous thing that Shakespeare, in his will, left her his second best bed,

which is this kind of classic joke where it's like, oh, God, like, are the old ball and chain? But that's actually, apparently, a cultural thing of like that was the marriage bed. The best bed is for guests. Right. And he left that, I think, to his daughter.

But like, it's like, so in leaving her the marriage bed, he is, you know, he's paying homage to their marriage. Was Shakespeare, like, bisexual? Probably. Like, did Shakespeare mostly live in London and hang out with dudes and writes honest about him? Probably. Like, is that in this movie? No, we don't have time for that. It's so, I love thinking about Shakespeare.

Yeah. And I felt like Hamnet didn't think about Shakespeare much except as a grieving dad. who happens to be writing him. Right. And does the part of to be or not to be by the banks of the time? That was reasonable in my opinion. I thought Meskell handled the language

so well. Like I love watching that guy act. Yeah. And I really enjoy most of what, yeah. It's really also hard. He gets tasked with being like, you're going to say some of the most famous lines of all time,

ones that are so well known. We can't hear them anymore as like sentences. Like we can only hear them as just like familiar series of words. You are going to have. to say them, like someone who wrote them and is speaking them for the first time. Right. And is maybe telling an actor how to say them or whatever. That scene I think is great. It seems very interesting. I do think like that to be or not to be on the like edge of the water is like just impossible for anyone. Like that's beyond anyone's like skill. But I think the scene, yeah,

where he's like he's auditioning or they're auditioning I think is like great. Like I think he like kind of like bring something to that. They wouldn't have auditioned though. Like it was a core group of players. Well, okay. Like if we're going to talk about also that then you're like, no, no, I don't you're wrong, but I think like it is like this kind of weird thing where you're also like, okay, realistically, people in this era would be much more used to like children dying all the time. Like, Ava, it's brought up with like the, you know, that's a very interesting debate. So I recently read Peter Aykroyd wrote a biography of Shakespeare and I read it. And it is, I don't recommend it because there is almost no documented fact about Shakespeare, as you guys may know.

So it is mostly him being like, well, someone in this guy's age who lived here probably would have done this. around like it's a lot of that and then he gets to the plays and that's more interesting in like the conventions of the theater at the time but he does talk about his kid dying and like he gets into that debate of like should we think about people from hundreds of years ago as being a little more near to the death of children probably not like there's graves there's art there's remembrances of dead children that is clearly like very deeply felt like it's not like people were like well that's why you have seven you know but but it would have been different Yeah. You're like, it would have just been something that happened more often.

Yeah. It's not to say you're like, then people are like, well, yeah, I have a few spares. But like, I mean, there's that, there is that part where her mother-in-law, you know, she's like talking about how she's, like, buried three children, right? Like, lost three daughters. I feel like also, I don't know, like the way that it's handled with the twin daughter, there is this weird, like, wrong kid died. Like, asked my two where you're like, you're like, what is going on? The creepy unsettling sort of megatragic, right, right, like notion they have that the boy can. kind of steals the illness from the girl to protect her. And, like, again, I feel like the fact that we're just debating all these points and nitpicking

and, like, suggests me that the movie doesn't completely work because it should just transport me. Like, if, and I should just be, like, lost to the romance of it and not worrying about any of that stuff. And instead, I kept bumping on things. And is it because I went in being like, well, let me see this Oscar villain, it better impress me? Like, I don't think so. I like all of Chloe Jow's. movies. I liked Eternals. I'll admit it.

Fair enough. Like, and I loved the writer. I watched that movie with you, Allison, at the Magno. Yeah. And we both walked out in tears. Oh, it's such a good movie. And then Nomad Land, like, you know, that movie is so lost in COVID for me, like, but I remember being impressed by it at the time. Yeah, it got a little swallowed up in like, it became something of a villain. Although, again, we had all lost our minds.

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With rave reviews from the Venice Film Festival, this bold and magnetic musical epic tells the story inspired by a true legend, Anne Lee, founder of the radical religious movement, The Shakers, The Testament of Anne Lee, now playing in an exclusive Toronto engagement in theaters everywhere January 23rd. Given everything we've said about the movie,

how we feel about it. Is that why it's an Oscar villain? Are people actually making those principled sort of qualitative arguments against the movie? Or is it more just how it sort of sits? They're putting it against their favorite movie of the year and they're like, well, it didn't measure up. So now you're my villainous.

You haven't seen it yet. You know? I mean, like, we are still, like, it still is not playing, like, everywhere around the country. I think they did sort of a weird job releasing it. And they probably should have just. Because they, it was like a tiny release

and then it got bigger. and then it sort of went away, but now it's coming back, right? They're bringing it back, I guess, hoping that, you know, the wave of Oscar Noms will draw new eyes, but they sort of abandoned what looked like it was going to be a traditional slow expansion. If it was just Jesse Buckley, who basically from the Venice Film Festival on,

was like the frontrunner to win as actress, there's no doubt in anyone's mind, there's no one to compete with her. Roseburn, I think, has come up steadily on her. Oh, yeah. But, like, Roseburn winning an Oscar for that movie would be really unusual. Yeah. Like, I love that movie.

Do you think if it was just Buckley as sort of the sole. representative of that movie. And, you know, maybe like cinematography, maybe Meskel gets a nomination, whatever, but it's not this best picture thing. Do you think it would have the same kind of backlash? No. No. Probably not. No. No. I mean, we also like, I think we're much more at peace with the sort of movies that are like, oh, this is just like, this is here as a platform for this major performance. Like, like, that's fine. We're like, a little form on the movie, but like the performance is incredible. And the classic like Oscar thing

of like with lead actress, not lead actor. Only with lead actress. like, oh, you're in your mid-30s, you've put in some work, and it is time for your final anointment as, like, a major, you know, actor because you suffered on screen. Like, and there's so many lead actors, lead actress winners who, like, suffer and win.

And she is good, and I've liked other performances by her more, but she's good in the film. But, um, you know, like, are people going to look back and be like, and yeah, Hamnet, like, that was her best work? I don't know. Are they going to look back can be like Hamnet, she sure, like, cried the most then, right? Yeah. Possibly.

I mean, I do think it is maybe qualms that we might have about that, the movie, like, I think it is an interesting sign of some kind of progress or maybe just, I don't know, that it used to be that, you know, the actress would suffer, she'd win an Oscar, but a lot of the times the movie

she was in would not get nominated for Best Picture. Right, you get the, you know, like you have the Still Alas or whatever, that kind of, the being, what, the Judy Garland movie, you know, know, Judy, like, with Renna Zellweigert. Judy. And now it's like, well, not only is the actress suffering probably will win for it, but, like, you know, its director is in contention. It's certainly a best picture. It's going to be a best picture nominee.

Like, that might tell us something good about, like, the way the Academy is thinking because that did not used to be the case. Like, there were years where five, all five best actress nominees were not in a best picture nominee. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I mean, I think also, I don't know. Maybe this is a good time to talk about Chloe Jow also, who is, I think, part of the reason there is a backlash against this movie

is that people feel really divided on her for ways. Some ways are maybe earned and other ways are just, like, out of nowhere or just, like, cloaked misogyny. Rank sexism, I would say. She's an odd customer. Like, she definitely has, like, a particular sort of way of, like, talking about her work that, I guess, set some people off. Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, she's definitely, I mean, she is kind of a woo-woo. She's a bit hippie. She's pretty up front of it. Yeah. She, like, was, like, living in Ohio, and she led everyone on breathing exercises before screenings of ham. When I interviewed her, she was talking about her chickens a lot. She had, like, multiple chickens, and we discussed her chickens. Yeah.

This was for Nomadland. She got, like, two dogs that she got when she was shooting, the rider, they were just, like, you know, like she adopted them. She's got, yeah, like, chickens everywhere. She, you know. Just kind of, like, you said, like, kind of an Earth Mama vibe. Yeah. And I feel like. But has a background.

Yes. her familial, her family background, and it sort of seemed to belie that, right? Like, her father invented aluminum or something? I don't really know. Chinese industrialist, right? Yeah, like a steel, like, yeah. So she's, like, rich.

She came from a rich background. Like, do you feel like we can't figure out, like, what makes us really angry about that? You know, where you're like, yes, like, in a general... I fully do not care. But so many people do, I know. I know, I feel like the layers of it are. Like, on one, like, we hate rich people,

and we want to eat them. Sure. Let's eat them up. Fair, let's eat them up. And then pass that thing, you're like, okay, there is a lot of structural unfairness in this already, like, brutal industry, you know, that was like never easy to get into anyway

and never fair, but that, like, now more than ever feels like it is, like closed off to people that do not come with, like, financial padding or connections or both. So, like, that is, I think, like, there's that there. Though I feel like hanging that on any one particular person is, like, unfair.

As a critic, it feels like a fool's errands me. That's why I don't, like, think about it. very much. I feel like... Trying to think about the work you made. Yeah. And I feel like that's the point where it... Where it is valid to bring up is just when you're like, this person does not know how to make movies about this subject matter because... You know, like, if you can feel it might happen.

And I feel like that is where it is valid to me, though I don't really agree with it applied here. Like, I just... I don't necessarily feel that tension in her movies. I... Some of the criticism around Nomad Land I felt was like, what? Like, just out of nowhere. Like, I... It was just like... It felt very rooted in, like, her, you know, well, you grew up rich, so what do you know of a poor person's, you know, journey and also like Amazon.

Everyone got so crazy about Amazon. Yeah. You know, as if people don't work there. Right. I mean, you know. So, like, I didn't feel like Amazon that looked like a really nice place. They did not come off well in that movie, in my opinion. Like, like, there is no aspect of that.

That was like, well, I'm going to go work in that. But, like, she's somewhere where I'm like, I'm very interested as you. She does. I was excited for this movie. Yeah. And I'm excited for whatever. What was she doing next? We don't know.

Eternal's too. She's doing the naked gun sequel. It's going to be really beautiful. The writer, too. And I think that the things about her filmmaking approach that I liked are in the first act of this movie and the nature stuff in the sort of like tactility of their home. Like, you know, where I'm like, yeah, she's always been really good at that kind of observational,

sort of like, quiet, you know, intimate stuff. But any Shakespeare movie Has to be a fantasy And this is like this sort of tragic, sad fantasy Of his family Shakespeare in Love is this like swoony romantic fantasy Of uninvented relationship It's also fun though

That was, I mean, anytime anyone was like Could it be the Shakespeare in Love To Won Battles Saving Private Ryan? I was like, those four movies Don't relate to each other Apart from William Shakespeare being a character Like Shakespeare in Love won because it was bouncy And like Zippy

And I guess I mean, it is, to this day, it's insane. The same Prevent Ryan didn't win best picture because, like, D-Day veterans were like sobbing in their seats being like, it's like I'm there. And like Oscar voters were like, but Shakespeare fell in love. No, there were people who knew Shakespeare and were crying and things. It's like, it's like I'm there. But like even like as a like a frothy movie, it's like Tom Stoppard wrote. You know, it had the classic Tony.

And you're right. I also, I sometimes, I've rewatched Shakespeare in Love many times. But like, sometimes I will just go to YouTube and watch the end. because it has a beautiful ending where she walks across the beach and he's writing 12th night and it kind of brings me to a hand that question which is

is part of the or how much of the movie's success thus far and it's Oscar chances whatever are because it sends you out of the movie feeling like for a lot of people feeling that way the last five minutes who cares what happened in the previous hour and change you know

if you destroy an ending like that just like annihilate your audience like that yes that's a huge benefit fit. Whereas saving private Ryan ends with... With... ...old man, Matt Damon... ...with end with going, like, was I good? And I think everyone was kind of like Spielberg, you know, want too many extra endings.

Like, um, not to really get the 98 Oscar race. No, but there, I mean, there are parallels for certain. There's a little bit of a parallel. But I think Hamnet is more the kind of, like, Oscar winner that was, like I said, defined by big acting, crying, suffering, like things like that, you know, like weighty ideas, death, loss.

There are other movies this year about women suffering and in pain. Yeah. Testament of Anne Lee. It's actually sort of similarly about childbirth. Yes. So much of that. And then Die My Love, which is just a lot of one woman suffering in particular. Why is Hamnet the one that is like speaking to people the most?

It's classy. Yeah, I think that's the thing is like it does have, I think to its detriment, it is like very, very, strenuously, like, prestigious. Like, not maybe in the kind of older, like, costume drama way we tend to associate. Like, right, it wants to be earthy-er. It feels more lived in a bit. But it's also, I don't know. It feels very airless to me.

Like, it wants so badly to be this kind of, like, beautiful, like, and kind of, like, artistically aware work, like, of the shots, all of the shots of the attic, you know, like, where you see the beds the children are in and then the camera pans across to, like, to, like, show, you know, the status of the family. There's a lot, it works very hard to kind of transmit its prestige. And I think it labors under that a lot. But I think that's also what has made it, like what has made people take more seriously. Because that works for some people and doesn't work for others.

I mean, the backlash to Hamnet, the Oscar villain sort of narrative for it is largely pinned to that. It's like, oh, it's just shameless Oscar bait. You know, I don't think that Chloe Zhao makes shameless. I don't think that that's her intention. But this is similar to the Oscar villain thing. where every year there's debates over some movies where it's like, well, they're just trying to win an Oscar. And I'm like, everyone wants to win an Oscar.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. You know, not every movie. But, like, yeah, like, that was somewhere in Paul Thomas Anderson's head. It had to have been, even if it was subconscious. I think about that all the time because you always hear those stories after the fact when someone wins an Oscar of like, Bob Evans came over to me and said, you're going to win the Oscar for this picture, you know. And I'm like, yeah, I bet you said that to a bunch of other people who didn't win Oscar.

It's on a lot of people's mind. Yeah, I mean, it is true. Also, we, we don't like it. It's unclear how the Academy feels about it, but like, it's debatable. I think they love being thought of. Try too hard, though, right? Like, they want it too much. Then we're like, especially, I think, with women, you want it too much, and that's, like, off-putting the people. You know, like, you, you, everyone can want an Oscar. Everyone can work really hard for an Oscar, but you're not supposed to, like, make it, make people feel it.

Right. Right. I also think that why a movie like Hamnet is succeeding where Die My Love or something is not, is that, like, Hamnet, kind of different from the book, really, makes a lot of room for Shakespeare. grief, whereas, like, a die my love, or, you know, if I had legs, I would kick you is not, the men aren't really. No, if I had like to kick you, it's the hamster is the number two suffer. Yeah, it's incredible performance, too. Yes.

And that's still. He took one look at them. Yeah. He's like, yeah, I'm out of here. And then that still is, I think, you know, a bridge too far for a lot of some of the, you know. But a bridge too far didn't win any Oscars. I know. It should have, though.

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Medcan. Live well for life. Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. We should probably before we wrap up address the fact that this is the last episode of this before the Oscar nominations were out. We are presuming that Hamnet will do quite well. I don't know, I feel like Chloe Zhao has not really been brought into the director conversation

much weird. Like for when, I think PTA is this sort of like guaranteed winner except for some sort of insane like, you know, Jeff Harpanahi like kind of groundswell, which seems to have maybe abated a little bit. Not that he would be a very worthy winner. But, like, I think there's sort of the, like, well, PTA is the great art tour. And we will honor his long career with the best director win at minimum.

Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. It's also, you know, we didn't talk about the actor awards or the DGA awards, both of which were announced in between our last episode. But, yeah, what I'm curious about are, like, the incursion of the neon films, the international films. None of that, like, the actor awards and the DGA awards did not go for any of them. They were very America for a recent. Well, because they're guilt-focused and they're like, well, I don't know a lot of these people are, they, those weren't union films, you know, so I think they're resistant to it.

But it does keep those movies then out of a narrative for a few weeks because they're not showing up at those, you know. Right. But like I can see for like Best Director, I mean, there are a lot of, you know, like international filmmakers who have made incredible work who also do seem to have a lot of push behind them. And I feel like that has made it even harder for Chloe Jow to be in that conversation. Right. And the Oscars these days tend to go more Europe. than the precursors. And I think that's what I've sort of trying to anticipate and it's harder this year

because there's sort of like three to four neon movies, whatever, you know, canned favorites. And everyone thought it was just an accident was sort of going to be the big one. And now it seems like the secret agent just has a ton of juice. Despite being, I really love that movie,

but like, it's inscrutable. It is a weird-d-ass movie, yeah. Baffled that it is basically become everyone's, like, box check for, like, three major awards. Like, not because of his quality. It's an excellent movie. I was just like, oh, wow, this transit.

I perhaps, you know, I underestimated, you know, I was like, that's going to be, that's too esoteric. It's too, you know, difficult to, to tangle with. But I guess not. I mean, but this is, I've gotten bad at this because last year I spent all fall being like, and Nora's just a little too spiky. Like, it's just, it's not going to be more. Oh, I was dead convinced. I was like, the Academy Awards will never give anything to a Sean Baker movie.

Right. And then I was, I was great. And I'm sure Sean Baker would have agreed to you. Up to about the moment an Oscar went in his hands. Yeah, exactly. Richard was wrong. That was his first thought. Yeah.

It was a weird speech, but, you know. And I think that, you know, it makes prediction harder to do, but also, you know, back to the Hamna thing. It's like, that's another reason why it's sort of an Oscar villain is because progress is being made and this would seem like this huge backslide to like, even though I think it's crazy to call a Chloe Zhao movie, like a backs. Like, she's a pretty like forward-thinking filmmaker and, you know, was greeted as like one of the new attaure. just a few years ago. Yeah, I mean, and this is also like, there's miles between this in terms of, like, kind of aesthetic choices and storytelling choices

and, like, say, like, sense and sensibility, which I love, but, like, is, I feel like, always in my head the classic, like, costume drama, you know, movie that the awards would love. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. This, what I am curious about is sinners

because I am sensing that, like, that momentum just is, whatever momentum it had feels like it's kind of fading in terms of, like, I mean, I am assuming it'll get Best picture Sags

or Actors Awards I feel like that like that is my big question like are any of the cast

is it gonna get acting awards well I think Michael B. Jordan will be nominated and then it feels like everything else

is a little up in the air because the SAG Awards they had it in almost every category right like Miles

Kate and Wimimimusaku right no one Linda did not get in for supporting actor right which was weird what did he do

did he run someone over like I don't like why why I ignore, like, one of the great unnominated actors in, like, Hollywood alive currently. Well, go ask Donald Sutherland's great. I don't know. I think Sinners will get a bunch of nominations.

Like, I have no fear about this. My big thing is I think I want it to win screenplay because I want Ryan to win an Oscar. Yeah. Hopefully that's how that goes. But maybe it won't. And maybe we'll walk out of, you know, Oscar night being like, it's kind of a bummer that sinners, like, got tossed, like, one design award and was largely ignored by this industry. Or like cinematography, which feels like the thing it could

definitely. Which it could, and that's fine. Like, it's a, you know, it had great. It looked, yeah, I don't know. This is, I mean, particularly bad news for me because that was one of a big spends in the fantasy draft. And, oh, yeah. Well, I think it's going to rack up, like, a dozen plus nominees. Like, I think it will be well recognized, especially because of the technical side of things.

I do wish it was being discussed more, but whatever. No. Marty Supreme will get a bunch of nominations, but it's. really only an actor play? I feel like, look, if you ask me as much as we just discussed Hamnet, you know, Marty Supreme and Hamnitz awards are earmarked, actor and actor. Yeah. Like, take your prize.

Right. Do we think, okay, before we close, do we want to, like, do, does anyone have, like, a prediction for, like, a surprise nominee, a surprise snub that they've been kind of mulling over? Ariana Grande could be a surprise snub. I think that's, yeah, I think there's a good chance. that's true. If she gets nominated, that's insane. And I'm not saying, I think that performance is pretty fun.

And I think she kind of, I mean, that horrendous movie for good, you know, the second movie, she's kind of the only one of emerges, like, basically unscathed. But how many people have been nominated for, like, in that way? Like, anyone ever nominated, like, back to back for playing the same character twice? I, like, Christop Waltz. And even him, there's a couple of years. between them. Like, we might look back on that being like,

the hell what? Like, we needed to give her another nomination? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think Blue Moon is getting a best picture nomination. Oh. Or, no, I don't think that, but, like, I think that's a distinct possibility. I like that.

It's like a sneak into 10th kind of, like, because something's going to sneak into 10th, right? Like. I have weapons there right now. That's another, right. I would love that. Honestly, like, yeah. Yeah.

I feel like I don't have a good surprise one. I mean, my, like, my main snub feeling is that feeling that sinners is going to end up getting, like, missing out on. If, like, Coogler doesn't get a director nomination, that would be very bad. Yeah, I am, but I have been feeling like, right. I have been getting that feeling, yeah. I mean, I feel like that's, you know, like, it will get nominations, but I feel like, aside, it'll get, probably, it'll get best picture. But, like, I can see a world in which, yeah, yeah, like, these other, like, director, even screenplay, like, it's just these ones where you're, like, suddenly, like, yeah, but this one made this. movie. Where does that feeling come from?

Just the, it's all vibes. But it's like it's an April genre movie and there's always been that fear of like, do they at the end of the day get distracted by newer stuff? And it's very American and the director's branch is one of the most international branches that does nominating. And they're kind of, they can be less interested in those American stories than Warner Brothers has had a lot of horses this year. So they haven't been able to just be like, we're all in on sinners this year. Like, they had to be all in on a bunch of stuff. Yeah, and I think that... Although, weirdly, my favorite of their movies,

the Alto Nights goes on campaign... Well, so far. So far. There's still time. That's my surprise pick. I just love thinking about the first three months of Warner Brothers where it was like Mike DeLuca is being taken outside and having a bag put over his head.

And then the Minecraft movie came there. We were like, oh, forget it. Or, like, you know, like... I went... I took a friend to see Alton Nates, because I had to see it for work. And we were supposed to hang out that Sunday anyway. I was like, hey, do you want to come...

It's, you know, it's like Barron Livingston. Like, it's like, how bad could it be? And then afterward, he, like, blinked at me kind of wordlessly. And finally, it was like, what the hell did you just take me to? And I was like, I don't know, genuinely. Yeah. It is funny to also have that be followed with Cinderers, another dual role movie, but, like, one that, like, is so good with it. There were a lot of dual roles and a lot of twins and a lot of that going on this.

It was when I interviewed Coogler and I was like, why twins. And he was like, twins freak me out, man. I think twins are freaky. Like, he really cop to it. He was like, they fundamentally just kind of scare me. He screamed in terror as Jesse Buckley gave birth of twins and Hamnet. There's two in there. Yeah.

Well, also, do we have any awards to go out this week? I mean, I would give out the award to Nikki Glazer for kind of nailing the Golden Globes for the second year in a row, which is tough. Yeah. I mean, Amy and Tina have done it. but also in a weird way to the gloves for at least making one good choice, you know? Yeah.

And kind of the most fundamental choice. You got to nail that more than anything else. And if the host had not been great, which they've definitely had bad hosts in recent years. What? Who? Well, you know, just a few people. Then that whole ceremony would have been

with the polymarket, like the cinematic award, whatever. Like, it would have been a really bad night. And so I think that like, yeah, Nikki Glazer, I think, kind of saved what is, you know, the most crucial Sunday of four seasons. The Globes largely made very good picks. The thing about that show was just like, right, host good, picks, like, you know, your picks were good. Yeah.

The speeches were largely pretty great. Yeah. All the other stuff, I was kind of like, no. Not trying. I know. But, like, the fundamental stuff was solid. It worked. Yeah. Yeah.

I would like to give an award out to the aforementioned Astra Awards, my favorite for the awards. for being the only group, as far as I know, or Oorto, to bite at the chance to give a novelty win to Indy the Dog from Good Boy. They gave an award to The Dog for best performance in a horror or thriller, beating out Ethan Hawk and Alison Bree and some other people. Just imagine going there.

And they're like, bring the dog up! It's really a horror movie, though? Yeah, I think that it's about the horror of the past of time and irrelevance. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I just, the kind of shamelessness of that, I appreciate, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that dog is good to watch in that movie.

Can you guys tell me what won the AARP best movie for grownups this year? Which is another long-running award ceremony. It's its 25th or 6th edition. Let's see. Best movie for grownups, according to the... Hamlet Moon? Oh, no, that's it. Oscar-Ville.

As I say. As goes AARP. So, but give them credit for giving best supporting actor to Delroy Lindo and best supporting actress to Regina Hall. Oh, that's cool. They made some cool picks like generally. He sure did. I mean, he's a grown-up. Has there ever been a movie more for grown-ups?

That's a grown-up performance. And then Laura Dern won for Is This Thing On? Another movie about a tired grown-up. Well, there are so many retired volleyball players in AARP. Yeah, so tough. They're like, wow, it's me on her. This is my story. Best Intergenerational Film, which is sort of their end.

MTV Movie Award Best Kiss, you know, the one where they're like, this is kind of us, went to sentimental value. Oh, okay. A movie about Intramental Value? That's true. I think the sentimental value could perform really well next week in nominations. I also... That's a real coin flip where, like, its juices seemingly been kind of, like, missing.

But, like, that could have changed very quickly because it's felt like an Oscar movie all year. Yeah. Also, I have to, like, I do... I'm doing the Ancler pundits, you know, for Katie Rich at the Unclear. Yeah, yeah. I'm doing it, except I haven't updated it. I updated it in, like, mid-December.

I think I have House of Dynamites still get. I took that off in December. But I kind of am like, do I take Jay Kelly off all predictions? Jelly. Yeah. I would, yeah. Jelly's last jam was the AARP. Yeah.

All right. One more. Do we know what won the Rotten Tomato Awards presented by Avocados from Mexico? I'm sorry. Wait, tomatoes were presented by ovens. What's going on? It's confusing. Add some lettuce.

As sponsorships, think of it. As sponsorships go, the Golden Tomato Awards presented by Avocados from Mexico is, is confusing, though. Okay. So, you're halfway to assault. Is this a jury award, or is this to, like, the highest rated film? Like, what a- Asking me how the-

Okay, all right, I'm sorry. All a committee assembles in Oslo, Norway. Right. No. Train dreams. I don't know. No, it was sinners, which unfortunately also feels like the implit of the box office award. Take your tomato.

Yes. So, you know. Your one golden tomato and your ceremonial box of avocados. They throw the award at you, though. It's kind of. Yeah, painful, actually, because it is a heavy one too. Yeah. All right, well, all will be revealed next week.

We should also say that next week's episode is going to come out a little bit later than usual just because of how the Oscar nominations work. But don't worry, we will be covering it. David, thank you for being on the show. Where can people find you? Oh, well, I'm the host of Blank Check, which you can listen to, I guess, on this very few. Yeah, it is working. I'm a film critic at The Atlantic. so you can see my review of 28 years later

the Bone Temple, which is better than Hamnet. Have you guys seen it? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I like it. It's so good. Yeah. So that's the main way of places you guys.

I deleted Twitter, so I'm not on there. That was for the best. I guess I'm on Blue Sky. Is anyone on Blue Sky? Sure. Allison, we're going to find you. I don't know. Allison, come on.

I don't know. All right, well, I'm just, Premier Party newsletter. The only reason I asked you to is so I could say my thing. So I'm just, I just, just served me the clip. again. It's from an old, old Graham Norton, where Julie Walters is sitting with, I don't know, whoever else is there. And Graham's like, Julie, and she's like, what? And he's like, how did you meet your husband? She's like, I don't know, leave me alone. It's the most incredible rejection of the talk show format. She's just like, shut up. He's just there to relax on that.

It's so funny. So that's Allison. I'm like, where can we find you? I'm like, you can't find me. I'm nowhere. I can't be fair. Yeah, I'm running away from you right now. All right, well, you're going to go to L.A. and announce the Oscar nominee. at 5 in the morning. Yeah, I've been practicing. Can't wait. Critical Darling's is a blank check production in association with Vulture.

Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Ann Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jean.