Blank Check with Griffin & David - Critical Darlings: Sentimental Value and Belated Oscar Breakthroughs with Joe Reid

Episode Date: February 26, 2026

This week we’re in hygge mode, uncovering traumas in our generational home with the host of This Had Oscar Buzz, Joe Reid! One of the breakout Oscar films of the year is Joachim Trier’s Sentimental Value, a warm, realist Norwegian film about a difficult but brilliant director (Stellan Skarsgard), his two daughters (Renate Reinsve and Inga Ibsdotter Lilleaas), and an American actress cast in the auteur’s new film (Elle Fanning). All four performances earned Oscar nominations, along with nominations for Best Picture, Best International Feature, Best Film Editing, and Best Original Screenplay. Sentimental Value also highlights a recurring phenomenon in Hollywood, wherein the Academy will pass over a director’s breakout film but shower the follow-up with nominations. In Trier’s case, his previous film The Worst Person in the World received nominations for Best International Film and Original Screenplay but, in our opinion, deserved many more. We try to break down how and why this happens, whether films about filmmaking have an innate appeal to Oscar voters, how Fanning’s star power helps bridge the international gap for voters, and the film itself, including its deft intermingling of artistic expression and sublimated generational trauma.  With Joe's guidance, we also check in on some of the Oscar-buzziest films of the year that didn't pan out, check in on the state of the acting category race and some potential upsets, and celebrate The Secret Agent's breakout star Tânia Maria and her new role as Burger King spokeswoman. Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the award season conversation. One contender at a time. Please welcome to this stage, your hosts, Richard Lawson and Allison Wilmore. Marie, thank you as ever for your spirited introduction. We are once again joined with producer Ben. Hello, Ben. And we have a special guest from Vulture, Allison's co-worker, and the host of this had Oscar Buzz, the podcast, Joe,

Reid, hello. Hi, thank you for having me. Well, we're glad you could make it. Me too. Especially because you're in a really busy time of your working life right now. Yes. You, people don't know every year, Joe does a ranking of every film, if short or feature, right,

nominated for an Oscar, so you have to watch a ton of shit. 50 of them this year. And I say shit deliberately. Sometimes. It's a lot of times there's bad stuff. Uh-huh. Live action short has not covered itself in glory for many, many years. I feel like... Is it any better this year? No, it's, I was I was saying to Allison earlier, there are fewer things that feel like absolutely terrible and awful.

You know, there's usually some, like, incredibly treakly, like, animated short or whatever or like a live-banking short. And it wins. Right. And it inevitably wins. There's none of those, but there's also none of, like, the one or two that are like, oh, this is really great. Right.

There's one animated short called Butterfly that I think looks incredibly beautiful. And they, like, painted on glass to, like, do the animation. And I'm like, this is really... But what animated short tends to do for me is like it really highlights how samey animated feature tends to be every year where it's just like, even when there's like, like, Arco looks different than Zootopia 2 or whatever. But then you look at the animated shorts and it's like, oh, there are so many different ways to do animation. Yeah, but at the same time, also whenever I watch the animated shorts, I'm always like, oh, you thought so much about like the technique and visuals you were going to bring to this. And like not about the content or structure at all. A million percent.

It's like students, you know. Oh, yeah. And you're like, why you did this incredible job of, like, using, yeah, like, a watercolor technique for this or something. I've never seen anything like that. Yes. But it's sadly, like, just to get a job at Pixar or. Right. No, right. Yeah. It's put it to put it on your... Or you have, yeah, you just have national funding to support you when doing this kind of... National. The World of Canada comes to you again. They come through all the time. Those shorts. Or the Estonian won Flo that won at the Oscars. You know, and I think it's exciting to see Flo, which also looks different. Yes. And Spider-Verse. So you're watching all the nominated films. but your podcast has had Oscar Buzz as the title suggests

is about movies that people thought might get awards but didn't end up getting them or even the nominations. It's a tricky way to make me have to watch all the movies because it's just, you know, I get them coming in and I get them, you know, coming out. So do you have like off the top of your head like a couple of like the biggest 20, 25 movies

that had Oscar Buzz that failed to materialize? It's more so than I would have expected because this was such, and you guys, I'm sure I've talked about this before, Like it's such a top heavy year in terms of nominations. All the nominations are really concentrated in those like best picture ones. So like things that like Jay Kelly that like even when Jay Kelly disappointed. I don't I don't think that's a real movie though.

Well, no. But the idea of Jay Kelly, sure. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, the fact that Wicked for Good didn't get any nominations was like I got so many messages that day being like, for me included. Yes.

I can't believe you can cover Wicked for Good on your podcast. That's crazy. Yeah. Things like, I mean, stuff that. died in the festival season, like rental family, stuff that I think people were maybe hoping might get a craft nomination like Testament of Anne Lee. So the nice thing about doing our podcast is sometimes we're talking about a movie that we really liked and we wish had gotten Oscar nominations, but it didn't happen. And then the other side of it is movies that

turned out to be really bad and everybody sort of got, they got kind of found out before the Oscars. Yeah, I think it's almost like an even split. It is. Yes. Stuff that you're like, Oh, man, that would have been so cool if that had actually gotten over the finish line and other stuff. And you're like, good, rental family, good. I'm so excited to do our episode on Ella McKay. We usually tend to let these movies tend to wait a year before we get into them to give us a little bit of distance. What movie is Ella going to talk about when she's on the show? The documentary that they made about her life.

Being the first person to become the governor of the state that they were born and raised. Right. Did that state have the blizzard? We don't know. The climate is all over the place. Yeah. Well, yeah, people can listen to that. We are here to talk about sentimental value this week. Yes. Before them, I did want to pick up a thread from last episode.

Oh, please. We talked about The Secret Agent. And we were mourning the fact that Tanya Maria, the incredible actor. Oh, Dona Sebastian. No, Sebastian in it. Someone who is not like really a professional actor who's kind of like in Filio's films has become this national icon, did not get, you know, an Oscar nomination. But what she did get is a series of Burger King. ads. That's right.

Brazil. Oh, I'm so happy. Yes. In which she is touting, I guess, a meal that offers two hamburgers aside and a drink for 2590.

The Where's the Beef Lady could never. Exactly. Yeah, so you can find those online. She's wearing the Burger King cardboard ground. There's one where she's just like sitting on a bed and like munching in this very

relatable way. Well, she for years was inside the Burger King costume with the head or whatever. So now she gets to show her. She's very good. Her cadence is very similar in the ad, too. She's sort of like shouting almost.

Oh, people. How I'm so I'm happy with more an indication. How I'm ghouloza? And she says like absolute cinema, I think. You can practically see the cigarette smoke

from the same. Let's say the ashtray right off camera. Right. Right off camera. Yeah. No, good for her. her. I mean, I wish that we would do that with like our, you know, elder discoveries, you know, in this country. I know. Maybe we, I guess we have in the past maybe. But where's June's quib should be doing many more. But she's, but she's like getting. She's hooked and busy. Yeah. She's not in. Lacking work in anyway. She was just on Broadway. Yeah. Going close for Wendy's. It's come to this. Yeah. I mean, you know, maybe it is time to bring back the where's the beef, uh, campaign.

Well, we've completely lost the taboo of actors doing ads anyway. If you watch the series. Oh, yeah. Like, it's just like a wasteland of that. So you know what? Have them do silly, funny ones. Yeah. No, I'm just going to say, time to bring back that taboo. Bring back many more taboos and that's one of them. You want to preserve your movie star gleam.

Yeah. You got a choosier about the, you know, I know we all have to make money. We all have to pay rent and or purchase a nice house on the hills. Yeah. Back to the area of Bill Murray doing Centauri times. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I know.

Well, that's the thing is like you used to be able to kind of go to Europe. or go to Japan and shoot commercials and no one would know. Yeah, a low-key movie that like the kids wouldn't understand that because they're like, what? Why doesn't he just do ads in the American? And why isn't she an implementer, you know?

Yeah. But it's also, it's sucking up the work that like the Snapple lady used to get and the where's the beef lady used to get. The guy who talked fast for micromachines, the dancing person for six-blics. I saw a clip of him on the Oscars recently, actually, the Micro Machemines guy

because they had him come out and to read the, like, they used to have somebody come out before they realized that the Oscars had to be as short as possible. They used to have somebody come out and read the rules about like how movies are submitted to the academy and who votes for what and what committees and whatever. And so they had the micromachines guy come out and like motormouthed his way through, uh, through the rules. Oh, that's nice. I mean, would you say that the micromachines guy has some sentimental value?

Oh, perhaps for those of us who were there at the time. Yeah. I mean, I loved him. Yeah. Um, so yeah, we're talking about Yoa Kim Trier's sentimental value, a film that we've all seen and I think all liked. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, and I had seen it. can and liked it, but I was so rare and to go because I loved worst person so much that I think that sentimental value on that first viewing was a little bit of a come down. But on the second viewing, maybe it's because I had been like alone for days. Like, it really affected me in a really strong way. So I think Allison, you and I were talking about like how part of this

podcast where we were rewatching Oscar movies, which I don't always do every year, it's nice because I now have a deeper appreciation for this film than I did before. That said, I really wish that the attention that this has gotten at the Oscars was what worst person had gotten. Yeah. But sometimes that's just not how the Academy works. Yeah, it's funny how often, I mean, at least anecdotally, and maybe we can come up with actual examples of this. It does feel like it is not someone's like incredible breakthrough that is the film that gets rewarded. It's like then afterwards they're like, oh, we like this person.

Yeah. And then it's like maybe a slightly lesser film. And I do feel like sentimental value is, I do not like it as much as worst person in the world. I do like it. It just doesn't have that same exciting verve in the way that like, well, I don't know. His other films, some of which deal with some like, kind of, you know, like deal with depression, deal with suicidal ideation. They have this kind of French New Wavey energy, this kind of like propulsion and like youthfulness. Yeah.

And this film is a more grown-up film. It is as rooted in this kind of aging filmmaker, you know, father figure. who is trying to reconnect with his children as it is in these two daughters, both of whom are adults. One for the boomers a little bit, a little bit, at least partially. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Like, it is, yeah, it, I mean, it's been interesting. It's about people who own real estate, so that's not for.

Right. That's not for us. Yeah, exactly. Generational. Generational. Yeah. Though also an enormous pain point for them. Yeah.

And carries some significant financial stakes as well. So, yeah. But no, it is, it is by some measures. I mean, there is that. part halfway through or so where there's the kind of face montage where their faces keep changing that you're like, okay, this is more

experimental in the vein of something from worst person would be. But, you know, it's a sturdy family drama. And I think it's just, it's less exciting. And I think that I would say the same about other filmmakers who have made good work, but the Academy has either

ignored entirely or like given a courtesy nod here and there too. And then their more conventional film is the one that breaks through. David, this episode, don't act so surprised because it's a familiar friend. Oh, okay.

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and then go see my father's shadow in theaters. Please, thank you for listening to me. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Thank you. Very kind. So obviously there is the like the Yorgosy thing of like them picking up on this movie because it's after the breakthrough. But could it also be something to do with the fact that this is about Hollywood or not Hollywood, but this is about filmmaking and acting in the, you know, how hard it is. Sure. Or just about the business. Very honestly.

Yeah. I mean, I think it is right. It has been long accepted if not necessarily. supported in terms of the numbers that Hollywood loves to award or loves movies about itself, right? And like, certainly

there have been some very high profile movies that have gotten saluted. But like Ben Zalzmer, who wrote this book called Oscar Metrics, did a piece in the New York Times in 2020 and just kind of running the numbers about like, if you, like,

depending on how broadly you define, right? Right. Where you're like, is marriage story a movie that involves, an actor, but it's not about, right? Like, is not necessarily about the business. Which is about an actress. Exactly. And I feel like even counting those, he kind of arrived

at this, that like, no, we're not more inclined. Like, the Oscars are not more inclined to give out. And, like, of all of the kind of best picture winners. I mean, like, it's because, I think we think about this, because the artist and then Argo won back. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it was those two years where

it was like, wait a second. Yeah. There seems to be a secret formula to getting this attention that maybe actually isn't. I mean, because if it was, then Babylon would have like 12 Oscars. Or like the Stavelmans is another one that I remember like going that and it's like, what does Spielberg have to do to win another Oscar? It's like, oh, be sentimental and to make a movie about movies. And it's like, well, he did it. What else do you want? And people were like, yeah. Well, so that was another interesting. Like that piece, the New York Times piece was from 2020. Sure. Pointed out even then that like even though that statistically these movies are not

more inclined. More recently, Hollywood has been more inclined to be interested in them in terms of awards. So, like, yeah, you know, like, I mean, famously singing in the rain, never up for a best picture, right? But, like, yeah, like, it was the 2022, which was the 20, the Oscars in 2023. The Oscars that went, like, overwhelmingly to everything everywhere all at once. But that was the year of Babylon, Empire of Light, the Fablemen's, blonde, you know. A loving tribute to Hollywood. Yes, exactly. I mean, or I mentioned, like, the India's submission that year was last film show. Nope. Came out that year. Did not get Oscars, but, like, it was about. Yeah, partly about.

Even, like, Panahi's film, No Bears, was about filmmaking. Right. It was about him making a film. Right. But, yeah, like, I, those, like, when you read those, you're, like, those are not the films that, like, went undominated that year. Right. There is a little bit of. of everything everywhere that has a little bit to do with.

Sure. You know, one of her persona, she's an actress, and they recreate the... It references her own. In the mood for love and that kind of stuff. Yeah, well, and I mean, like, the kind of martial arts, you could say, or, like, existing within her own personal film history. And I always think about a movie like The Shape of Water, and the fact that that movie, I was always so impressed with the way that that movie was able to, that year, capture the,

oh, we remember when Hollywood was, you know, old Hollywood or whatever, without, because that was the year of B2 was happening, like, did that without actually making a movie about a filmmaker or the studio system or anything like that. And that was a movie that felt like it was a movie about movies without actually ever being about that. Beyond the fact that, like, she lives above a theater. Right, but the fish monster did represent CAA. Oh, exactly. Yes. There was some celebration happening. Yeah. I mean, a lot of that kind of hang ringing. pieces that I found that were about this topic were from 2020. Do you know why? There was what movie? Yeah, Mink. Oh, Mr. Mank, which it did seem like kind of created, yes, to be like a movie that we all talk about all the time with its enormous. I love Mank. I have to say. I did not love Mank. But it was like it was almost like a joke about an Oscar. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, the thing about like maybe I'm wrong, but do authors like of books get shit for? for writing about writers. It's like, well, wouldn't filmmakers sometimes make something that's kind of out of art of art?

Eight out of ten Stephen King books are about a writer. But that's said, I do feel like I personally complain about how many novels are set like on college campuses. Oh, sure. Adjacent. My professor was cheating on their wives.

Yes, exactly. Maybe like maybe some adjunct who is a novelist on this, you know, you're like, what are you drawing from here? Yeah. So, yeah, sure. I mean, I don't mind movies about movies.

I think as long as they're not. I think the thing that made... As long as it's America's Sweethearts. Exactly. Obviously, that's the pinnacle. Right. The form. I mean, the thing about like that 20, 22 year is like what...

Stan out was not just how many movies were about movies, but how many movies were about, like, these kind of incredibly bittersweet but, like, glassy-eyed, like, oh, yeah. Cinematic Experience. Like, I think I wrote about it that year. Multiple of those movies started with someone explaining, like, 24 frames per second and, like, how that, like, how that brain... I remember that. Multiple movies that year included someone giving that explanation for how, you know, we process that into the illusion of movement. I mean, I will defend Empire of Light.

You really love that movie. And that got one single solitary Oscar nomination. For a cinematography. Well, it's beautiful. Yeah. Should have been scored, too. I was always a little bit annoyed that Nope wasn't able to. Because my thing with craft categories is always like, if you make a movie about a fashion

designer, you are probably going to get a costume nomination. You know what I mean? Sure, sure. And I always was like, Nope has a cinematographer as a character. Like, what else do they got to do? I have bad news for Angelina's Couture. Yeah. I don't think that's getting in there.

It was a Toronto movie. Probably not. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I know how many movies have not just like a cinematographer character, but one who comes on board with their like personal made like crank camera to explain. And it's like integral to the plot or whatever. Wait, can we do an experiment and we'll pull our resources and make a movie about like a sound designer?

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. We can sweep those categories. Yeah. We can do it. We can do it. It'll be like underwater or something.

They're like, they're an expert in like underwater. There's the podcast movie. There is. There is also like there is a horror movie about a sound guy from a not look it up. The podcast movie I did see at Sundance and it's not. Yeah. Also, I think I might have said this on our when I was back from Sundance, but it imagines podcasting as something you do at two in the morning for five minutes. No, but that's not the podcast horror movie because there is also a horror movie coming out about like essentially it seems like it's a haunted podcast.

I'm not even making it totally. undertone? Yes. Yeah, that was at Sundance. Oh, that was at Sundance. Yeah. Yeah. And it's very bad.

Okay. But it's basically just like, what if Hereditary had a podcast element? I didn't realize it was a Sundance. Oh, okay. Yeah. But anyway, so I think that the podcast movie is still, we could still make it. Barbarian Sound Studio.

Oh, of course. Yes. That's right. Yeah. Anyway. Yes. What about a movie about a dedicated animated short filmmaker? Yes.

How would that? How would that work? What if it's about? getting filmboard of Canada funding Oh my honestly

a worthy subject for a movie Yeah So in in Trier's case Maybe it was The sort of filmmaking

aspect that helped him I mean Look worst person Got an expected International Feature nomination But a kind of

more surprised Screenplay nomination It was pretty exciting Yeah People I thought or hoped That maybe

Renata Rhinsva who also starred in that film would get in But she didn't Yeah

But like I feel like There are other examples of this Like why did Sean Baker after years of kind of not even, I don't think he was knocking at the door. I think people were knocking at the door for him. Yes. And then they were like, okay, Willem Defoe is good in the Florida project. Yeah. And that was the lone nomination for that movie. And then all of a sudden, Nora like crashes through the side of the wall, you know, like the building. Why did that happen with Nora? I believe I was on a podcast with you where I made the prediction that Simon Rex was going to get a nomination for Red Rocket. I mean, he's incredible in that movie. I think so too. But after that movie, really sort of got passed over,

I remember being like even more sort of pessimistic about it. Like once Nora won the palm, I think that made it something that you have to really pay attention to. Yeah. And it sort of like demanded attention for itself. But I, that still is, it kind of runs counter to my sort of grand theory about this kind of thing,

whereas, you know, these attours will have an early movie that is obviously very specific. esoteric, challenging, edgy, the kind of thing that you're really only going to get like small financing for pie from Darren Aronofsky or like Citizen Ruth

from Alexander Payne or something like that. And then as they sort of move up, they get more funding. There are more people whose opinions they have to listen to. They get bigger stars. You get about Schmidt for, you know, Nicholson. And I think then

sort of inevitably, I think also there is an element of just awareness builds. You know what I mean? More people know who you are. And I think so much of the Oscar race ends up being like familiarity. You have to be somebody who these voters already know about or else they're just not going to watch. Or someone who hits that new factor exactly right.

Yes. You know, which is really hard to nail that. I'm not channel on being an example. Sure. That wasn't his first movie, but like it was early enough that they really like got him on the up. And I would say the Daniels to an extent. Yeah. Like, they had other stuff, but like, Swiss Army Man was never going to.

But he was brand, they were brand new to the, a lot of the academy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, but it's interesting to look at someone like David Fincher, say, you know, and you're like, he's made these movies like, fight club, like that feels like it has a larger cultural footprint. You know, but, like, was not like a kind of like an Oscar favorite by any means. And I imagine there were a ton of Oscar voters that year who just didn't watch it because they didn't want to watch a movie called Fight Club that all the previews looked like was. you know, bloody and ugly and they didn't want to subject them.

Yeah. And then he did Zodiac, which is a movie that you would think would be... That's the one. And if that came out now, it would get like 12 nominations. Because he wasn't... Yeah, he wasn't in the club yet. That's... There's enough... That's the other... And there was more to choose from back then, from an academy perspective, maybe, where they were like, that's a great, robust movie. But, like, we don't need it. We have... Right. And so then instead, of course, they do give him nominations for the movie he makes the next year. The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. Which, like, you know, I will defend that movie, but, like, it is... is, it is almost shocking for someone where Fincher was at that point in his career. You're like, whoa, you, this is a, this is a real right turn, like, into really, like, Oscar-friendly

territory in a way that I did not think. And, you know, look, if there was a movie, if the movie Jay Kelly had been made and come out, like, just, like, you know, theorize a hypothetical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you would look at a filmmaker like Noah Baumack and be like, how did the guy who made the fucking squid in the whale get to this point? Right. Whereas marriage story exists on this sort of crux where like it has that bomb-back edge, but it's just nice enough. And then he tips way too far toward the Oscar-friendly direction, whereas Fincher kind of pulled back almost immediately. He was... Yeah. He doesn't also ever seem like someone who...

I mean, aside from Benjamin Button, he's not someone who feels like their chase... And then Mank, of course, the greatest film he's ever made. But that was like for his dad, like, you know. Benjamin Button is also a movie that features like tiny old man Brad Pitt. You know what I mean? Sure, sure. It's one of those movies that when you watch it, you understand. the classic elements to it. But it's also one of those things, if I describe the plot of this movie to you,

you're going to be like, what are you talking about? You know, a little shape of water-esque, actually, where it's just like, on paper, this is bizarre, but then you watch it. I'd be like,

go back to Julia Ormond in a hospital room. Right. By the way, Fight Club did get one Oscar nominee for our favorite category. Sound effects. Yeah. Fincher was good for like

one craft nomination, for like, I think seven got one craft nomination and probably art direction or something. Alien 3 got a visual effects Sound something like that nomination So two part question One how much of these

Sort of catch up nominations do you think Are attributed to people feeling like They got snubbed for their last movie And I guess how do these movies get snubbed in the first place Are people just not watching them? I don't know Do voters actually watch all the movies? No

No, but it's also like I don't know like You look at like Chloe Jow right Like the writer was never going to get a best picture nomination. No stars. Yeah. But it's her best film. It's her best film.

Today. And like it's like a stone cold. Yeah. Masterpiece. Short of Eternals, of course. Yeah. The greatest film she's ever made. Yeah.

But you have, you know, like that film where yet there's no stars. It's all, you know, like people who are not professional actors. And it was like this small film. And it, that would like live on the festival circuit. And then the art house circuit. You know, it's not even that these movies are getting. snubbed. They just never entered into the conversation to begin with. But I think the people who do see them are like, well, this is someone to pay attention to. And then I think a few years later then,

you've had enough people tell you, did you see that movie The Rider from last year? It was really good. And it snowballs a little bit, the attention snowballs and the prestige snowballs. And more and more people want to seem in the know because, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not saying that I am just like so supernaturally aware of all filmmakers in any stage of their career. But having met a lot of these people at like, let's say out in L.A. who are a bit older than me, sort of like mid to late career, they are shockingly incurious about like the world of film. Yeah. You know, they know who they know. They like what they like. And once in a while, they will pat themselves on the back for quote unquote discovering someone. Yeah. And I think that they're like, nomad land. They're like, well, look, I mean, I found this great new. And it's like, but she did have this other movie that is kind of why you know about her.

But you don't know that that's why you know about her. Well, and this is why something like the Golden Globes, which on its face mean nothing of value because the people who vote for it have no place within like the Hollywood, like the industry. But in attention economy terms, it's incredibly valuable because if you are making somebody with us, you know, we used to say a stack of screeners now it's, you know, an inbox full of screeners or whatever, give their attention enough to watch your movie. that's sometimes the best you can do. Yeah, yeah. The problem that I have with this, it's not always, but sometimes is that the film that finally gets this filmmaker that kind of awards attention, which is not, you know,

necessary to their career, but it helps, is oftentimes, I think, like, a lesser effort. Yeah. You know, not always. Like, I think that, like, one example we talked about before we recorded was, like, I mean, I love Pookie nights, which was PTA's second film. Yes.

And that did get Oscar attention for sure. But in that limited sort of like, we're not going to get you your best picture. Right, exactly. And then it took like a big American epic to, in their worldly blood

a couple years later, to like, or actually almost a decade later. Novelistic. Yeah. Yeah. And I, that's, that's an incredible movie, but like, I don't like it as bunch as I like Boogie Nights,

but I don't know. I think also like, like a lot of these films, they feel edgier. They feel more disreputable in terms of like what they do or what they're like, their tone. And so, like, I mean,

the Oscars now feel more open to things like that, but I feel like, especially not even, right, not even that long ago, yeah, you would do like Danny Boyle, you know, where you're like, what is a Danny Boyle film that gets in? It's not the films that we think of like these enormously influential films. Shallow Graves not happening, yeah. Right, but a Sondog

millionaire, right? Right. That's a really edgy film. I don't know what you're talking about. But yeah, there's a kid in poop. But, yeah, you know, it's like when someone then shapes up and makes a movie that feels Oscar-y oftentimes. They put a suit on. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. They shaved. You know, they comb their hair and here they are presenting themselves to their peers. And sometimes there's an degree of like meeting in the middle. I feel like the Cohen brothers had a little bit of that where like Fargo sort of met the Oscar voters halfway. It was still really idiosyncratic. The comedy was very sort of particular.

But in a post-pulp fiction kind of a world, the Academy was moving towards stuff. But it wasn't so, it wasn't the Hudsucker proxy, right? It wasn't like the kind of Cohen's movie that people are like, I don't know what they're doing with this thing. Yeah. And then you get something like no country, which is then combining like Western tropes that they know and like, but also this Cohen kind of edge and perspective. Yeah, really prestige, really. I mean, like, look, Spielberg had to work for years before the academy was like really, took him, quote, quote, seriously as a best director. Mercilessly snubbed for Fellini back.

In 75. Right, right. Yeah. And, like, and you see, like, you know, Martin Scorsese winning for The Departed, which is a fun movie. But you could kind of feel that you're the Academy being like, so we just look back at the records. We probably definitely should have given this to you earlier. Sorry about this. Here you go.

Here's also, while you're at it, here's Best Picture. Actors, I think, get the, uh, oops, we're sorry about that award much more often than directors. I think with directors, it's a little bit more complicated than that. They're more sort of elements at play. But, yeah, it definitely does happen. Although Scorsese had, like, multiple years of, like, well, they're going to give it to him for gangs in New York because they didn't give it to him for Raging Bull.

And, like, that didn't happen. And then the next time I was like, but the aviator, it's so much up their alley. And then they didn't for that either. Kind of about Hollywood in part. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

David. Yep. You and I have a lot of shared interests. Sure. Common interest. Film. Dumb movies. Comedy. Podcasts.

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I mean, with Trier, you know, obviously he's a very different kind of filmmaker. He did not have a ton of American attention until very recently. Right. But he had made these two great films, Reprise and Oslo 31st August that, you know, were in the festival circuits, in the late odds in early 2010s. And, you know, the Manola Dargis is a. the world were like super onto him and into him you know um i think that her lovely long quote is at the top of the reprie's like DVD or poster or something uh-huh um and then he took this weird detour where he made a movie called loud he went english language which is something that you always you know

is always risky for a non-american or non-english language director to do like okay i'm gonna cast stars now i mean one of them was isabelouper who's not yeah in a native englishman but that movie with it's her I think Gabriel Byrne Jesse Eisenberg That is a stinker It is bad Yeah

That was one of those like I mean not legendarily But like for me That was at I believe it was at TIF that year And I remember people being like Don't see that Yeah because it did premiere

To KIA Yeah And it was And I saw it there Because I'll admit At the time I had not seen Reprease Ores 11 August

Yeah But people like Oh no he's good You should go see that And then I was mad It was like Suburbicom levels of bad festival. And it was also like, you know, sometimes when you use something like that

happens, you're like, oh, was this like, there's like a work for hire or something like that or was like, you know, working off a script from someone else. But no, like he co-wrote that with Escovote, his like collaborator, his longtime collaborator who's like worked on like almost every film with him. And you're like, okay, so it can't even be like, oh, that wasn't his fault really. No, it was. Like it wasn't a paycheck game. I mean, maybe it paid a little more. Yeah. And then he made Thelma, which is this very strange sort of supernatural, lake creature sexual allegory

kind of movie that feels totally Y.A. ish, right? Like, yeah. And I guess you could maybe see him trying to like establish himself more on a marketable standpoint or an international standpoint,

which is like, you know, he's got to pay the bills. Yeah. So I guess I get that. But it's just so interesting that after that he's then like this is not working. Let me go back to Anders Danielson Lee, who is the star of his, you know, first two,

Let's go back to Oslo, like, fully. Yeah. And just start talking about life again. Yeah. And then it's worked so brilliantly for you. And Renada Reinsva was in Oslo, August 31st, you know, and he made her the lead of the worst person in the world. And that really also introduced her. Like, that was her international breakout film.

You know, she was the first time a lot of us kind of were like, oh, she's amazing. Yeah. I have not seen any of his previous films. Yeah. But you're talking about how he made an English language movie. that maybe didn't work, there's a lot of discussion in this movie about whether the movie is going to be in English. Is it going to be on Netflix?

And it's going to have Hollywood. Are you, and because this movie is, I guess, more about the process of making a movie, do you feel like there's a lot of his experience about making films in this movie? I would guess so. I mean, it is in particular about the idea of, you know, he's trying to make essentially like a Scandinavian art film, right? Like, he's, like, this revered Swedish filmmaker, Stelands Garzgerd's character,

and has this reputation that gets him invited to festivals. But, yeah, like, you know, how does this Hollywood star, played by El Fetting, like, notice him? It's because she happens to see him getting this tribute at a festival. She's at the Doville American Film Festival, which is a particular kind of film festival that she would be at. And then she's, like, so moved by this screening, you know. But, yeah, I think...

That she defies Cat Cohen to go... Exactly. ...to go hang with him on the beach, you know. Her publicist team. Yeah. It's like, you know, to me, more doing passion of mind. Like, you know, like, there's a long history of actors being like, I'm going to seek out this like Euro director and they're going to really transform me. Yeah.

And I think that partly that's the meta textualness of like Trir doing this story. I mean, you know, Scars where's character is significantly older than Trier is. But like, is like maybe him resigning a little bit to like, I think I'm good in this lane. Like I'm probably not going to skip across the Atlantic and become, you know, uh, Yon de Bond. I mean, I don't think he wanted to become that. Right. But you know what I mean? Like a European director who then goes and makes like a fortune in Hollywood.

He's like, I'm good here and I can kind of work not necessarily in or out of one system, but kind of between the systems. All right. We're going to talk more specific plot points and spoilers for sentimental value. If you want to skip that, you can fast forward 19 minutes. And I think it is a bit about the kind of like thrill, but the terror of being like, oh, you know, you have this major star on board. does she actually fit into your movie, you know, like in ways that makes sense? Even if she's incredibly game, you know, if she really wants to do it, like the vision that you actually have, like, can you compromise it in ways that, you know, make a film that you still think is your film? And I think in really delicate ways, you know, sentimental value is like, no.

Right. Yeah. Well, and it also, there is a thread about sort of authenticity and how that matters for this. movie that he's trying to make where he wrote the movie for his daughter. She won't do it. So Al Fanning's character, Rachel, is so interested in him and so interested in making this movie. And yet he can't help sort of like he has her dye her hair the same color as his daughter.

And like everybody sort of sees what's going on. And it's all, none of it feels very like manipulative or sinister. It's not like a vertigo kind of a thing. But El Fanning's character ultimately is like. I can't do this movie. I don't feel like I'm right for this movie. And you know that I'm not right for this movie. We all sort of like can see this.

And ultimately it ends up working with the daughter. And I think it's, I kept going back to like, why is, you know, what's the title mean sentimental value? And this idea that like sentiment sometimes can work, you know, against something and sometimes it can,

you know, sort of work in its favor. And I like the way the movie does not, treat Al Fanning's character as this like stereotypical actress while also letting you in on the fact that like, you know, she's not like the best actress. She's not like the most, you know, intelligent or intuitive. But she tries and she takes her craft seriously. And that's ultimately, I think, what he respects. Yes. Yeah. And maybe he's being a little hyperbolic when he's like, she's the best actress of a generation. But like, he sees something. Yeah. I was white knuckling at the first time I saw this movie being like, don't have them sleep together. Don't have them sleep together. Yeah, that's luckily not a direction I think Trier would go in. Yeah. At least if, and if he did, it would be done in an interesting sort of sensitive way.

Yeah. Was she expected to get nominated for this? Elle? Yeah. I think she was in the mix. Like, it wasn't a huge surprise. Especially because people felt she got a little bit snubbed from a complete unknown last year. Monica Barbaro got the supporting nomination for that movie instead.

So I think that Elle was kind of like she was, they were like, don't leave the building. it. Let's just see how this year goes. I mean, this isn't actually a tricky movie, I think, kind of campaigning-wise, right? Because, I don't know. Like, as much as I would say if I were to pick one

lead, and I don't know that you can say there was maybe not one true lead in this movie, but I would say it's Stellan's character. But I think, like, on second viewing that I felt like it was, you know? And, but like, you know, they all share

time. Like Inga gets slightly less, but still has her own kind of like storyline there. And it builds. She gets more as the end. Yeah. But I mean, that can make it really tricky to build an Oscar narrative, right? Oh, yeah. You have like different. And instead, like, this film did quite well by that.

Yeah. I do think, like, to bring this back around to the idea of like movies about movies, unlike J. Kelly, if they had ever made J. Kelly, you know, this is a movie where it is very, takes craft seriously. It is also like, look at how annoying actors can be. Like, I love the scene with Renata in the beginning having what is apparently like, oh my God, a regular burst of stage fright that she has every time. Yeah. That involves them having to physically restrain her and, like, push her on

stage at which point she gives a great performance. But, you know, it is, it is very much, like, about, like, look at how difficult and, like, kind of abrasive and, like, sometimes, like, painful. like trying to channel your truest self into your work or artistic work can be, especially when it comes to all of the ways you are worse at communicating those things in person to like these your loved ones. And the movie never stacks the deck against any of the characters.

Everyone is, she's difficult, but also very sensitive and a good actor and Scarsigard's character. Similarly, is like a very difficult person, but the scenes where he is protecting, L. Fanning's character from the press and stuff are actually kind of moving. Kicked that junket guy right out of it.

And so you see these people... I mean, this film is really anti-press, which I don't like. We should be celebrated. Yeah, I mean, I think the conversation the conversation where he, like, his character and Renata's character are just, like, Riling her up so much

also where he is trying to kind of express that he's concerned. about her, but instead is just like coming across as like criticizing all of her life choices. Yes. And she also just takes it all so personally immediately. Yeah. I think it's such a great, like, it sums up like these years of like pain and miscommunication so perfectly in like a very small scene. And I think scenes like that are one of the reasons that this film has done so well in terms of like acting.

Yeah. And Inga representing like maybe I'm speaking from personal experience being the sibling who has issues with parents but not the issues that the other sibling has where it's like I know that like my sister and my mom for years it was like whoa they just cannot get along like and they're fine now but like but like in those rough teenage years and I was that one the pacifier or whatever and like kind of trying to like maintain the household harmony and and are you the older or younger I'm the younger one yeah yeah which is if there were a middle it's a classic middle child thing but also like it falls to the younger I think in two siblings but what I think that that Inga's character

also knows and sees is like after that kind of bickering moment you know the other two go out and smoke cigarettes and kind of like conspiratorily smile at each other and it's a lot like that scene

in the Fablemans where the creepy uncle Judd Hirsch comes and has this weird conversation with Sammy Fableman where he's like they don't get it like we are artists and it's going to be painful for the rest of your life and you're going to have to alienate your family

if you want to choose this art and I think that's Garzgard's character and Ryan's character understand that in each other, even if they can't get along. Yeah. And in another way, like, the other person in that family unit is on the outside, even though she gets along with everybody. Right, right. Right. Well, and the other thing that I thought, watching it this time, and this sort of goes to my, like, you know, this would appeal to boomers is this idea that this screenplay, finally, Inga's character says to Nora, it's just like, just read, just read it. You know, you don't have to do the movie, but just read it. Because I think this is about you. And I think this is ultimately, you know, him finally apologizing to you through this script. And it's not about his mom.

It's about you. But he still will throughout the movie, even when given like ample opportunity, just refuses to give her an inch. Every time she, you know, calls him on the carpet for not being there for them, he has this defensive, like everybody is piling up on dad or whatever. And it has this very thing of just like, I can only apologize to you in a way that feels like, you know, this one. particular way. Do not ask me to actually say the words, I am sorry, but I will, you know, do this. And that to me felt like every Oscar voter whose kids have a problem with them and they don't want to admit anything. But like, but can't you see that through my work? Sure. It's really romantic, right? That idea of being like. Yeah. Finally being seen through your work. Like I, like, maybe a failure in so many personal ways. But like, in my art, I can like communicate something like more. true than I ever could In that. Does Christopher Nolan's daughter eventually see Interstellar

and say, I guess this is an apology for missing all of my school plays? Supposedly Jay Kelly is also about this. Allegedly. Or was supposed to be. The trades were reporting that, but then it obviously never got made. It is amazing that they both have like two daughters.

They're so structurally, like, they're begging to be compared and it just turned out. So, nine nominations were one. What I think, and what I think that that sentimental value does better than a lot of those director apologizes movies, which, and there are a lot of them, writer apologizes, you know, whatever, is that it, like you said, it gives equal weight to everybody. It understands where everyone kind of fits in this ecosystem. And I think it also has something really beautiful in the way that it is kind of almost

resigned to kind of like the way that the generations tumble through time. You know, one of the sort of of closing, you know, sort of turns in the plot of the movie, you know, is that like, oh, another generation's getting into this. Yeah. You know, the grandson is going to be in the movie and this never ends. And, like, did being in the movie harm Agnes so much? No, not necessarily, but it did change the course of her life.

Yeah. Pretty irrevocably. And it was, like, an example of, like, this pain at the heart of her relationship with her father, which is, like, when she was doing the thing he cared about, like, he, she had all of his attention. And as soon as she was not, and she was just a regular person again, that the light was not on her anymore. And yet something in her, as we all do, maybe, you know, with a fair amount of hopefulness or foolishness, is like, it'll be different the next time. It'll be different for him because I'm around.

I can make sure this doesn't happen. What happens? You know, I'll always love him even when he's not starring in my dad's movie or whatever. But you also know that there's a gamble there. There's definitely risk there. And I think that what the movie says about, like, how much you can change family trajectory and how much you kind of have to deal with what is innate and almost kind of inevitable, I think is really, really well done. I also wonder if part of it is the fact that this is ultimately not Joe Kim Trir telling his own story. Yeah.

So Trier has two kids who were relatively young, I believe. Okay. And so maybe he's sort of almost anticipating what he's going to visit upon that. I don't know. There's still enough of a remove. Yeah, I think he said he had become a father when he started writing the movie, and then learned his second child was in the way, and the same kind of spacing as the two women, grown women.

Right. I kind of say, like, I, and look, he's not the only one doing this, but I really do respect a filmmaker sort of on the younger side of things. I mean, he's what, like late 40s, early 50s. 51, I love it. But on the younger side, who is like, he's writing outside of immediate lived experience, which is like kind of increasingly rare.

Like I feel like everything in this sort of autour era, it's like, why is that horror movie this? Well, because my mom got sick. It's like, okay, that's a perfectly valid thing to make a movie about. But what if you just came up with a story that had nothing to do with? Poor Ariasters, real mother is getting dragged through the month with every movie. The poet who lives in Westchester, who sounds terrifying. You know, there is sentiment, as the film's title would suggest.

But I think there is also a really respectable and interesting amount of darkness. like watching it for a second time, I was like, oh, this is a haunted house movie. You know, this is about a movie about people contending with a spirit or several spirits that are like filling this space and infecting their lives. And L. Fanning is this kind of like final girl-esque person who shows up and is like, oh, this house is fucked up. Like that stool, like, which she thinks was used for this terrible thing. You know, and I think that it's that maybe I have issues with the very end of the movie where there's this knowing look exchange between father and daughter. feels a bit like on the nose. But for the most part, he really resists.

Yeah. Getting anything sort of sappy in there at all. Yeah. I mean, I think that is what makes this movie feel less maybe like gooey than, yeah, like, you know, movies that are very, like, have this very kind of wet-eyed idea about the process of making movies or something like that. Like, it is very much, like, the family drama comes first, you know, like the kind of film. is the mechanism through which the family drama continues, but also it is like, it is about like a work, right, like workplace kind of like like like issues in a lot of ways.

The fact that it ends with them, the fact that it ends with them on the set rather than filming in the house also feels significant. Well, and also the house has been renovated. And I think that that's such a crucial little bit of footage in that the very end of that movie, it's never commented on, but it's like, oh, look. look at all the new modern trappings, the fancy stove and all that. This house is now changed and it's going to be someone else's, and we have left the building. We have then, instead, safely recreated our version of the house in an environment that we can control.

Yeah, yeah. And there's a crack in the foundation, which is at the very beginning. And I sort of wonder at the end, by selling the house, are they repairing that crack or are they passing it on to someone else? I do appreciate that the remodel is like your standard, like bland colorless. It's just like, oh, it's the regular remodel. They do this in Norway as well. I do, I will say, my favorite parts of this film are the bursts. And this is like very much like brings you back to Trier's earlier films.

Like the bursts of flashbacks into the house, like the past, you know, like from when the women were children. And then from previous generations like the. The part that just, like, runs through, you know, from, like, Gustav's childhood into, like, the aunt inheriting the house, like, the kind of lesbian aunt when it was not acknowledged. And then, like, into... Rowan parties at the house. Yeah, like, passed on and on. And this kind of, like, the ways in which there's, like, enormous bursts of history that are, like, just... I love his, like, his montages of those.

And I... There's this kind of energy to them that I wish some other parts of the film has. Yeah, that's fair. I think it's fun to watch him, like, be like, oh, he's really going for it. He's going to do the house up in period detail, and he's going to have actors in period costumes, like, even if it's only for 20 seconds of footage, like, I think that's cool. And it, I mean, it reminded me of a film that I actually liked more than this this year, though, it didn't go anywhere. A Sound of Falling, which was like the Germans mission for international film, which didn't get nominated. It was too much of a slapsic comedy. I think it was just not. Hilarity all over the place. Yeah, you know.

No sound nomination. for a movie about the sound of following. There is a lot of good sound in that way. There is. So, like, this is a German film that takes place entirely on this one kind of farmhouse over four generations.

So, like, basically covering a century and skipping between these four generations and, like, these different four families, gets into some really dark territory. Also, like, drops you in and really does not extend a hand to give you any guidance for a long time. It's alienating.

Yeah. It is. It's a tougher set, certainly, though I thought it was incredible. But, like, that is a film that is entirely, like, the axis of the film is this physical space, is this building. And I feel like the parts of sentimental value that did that, I loved. Yeah. And I think the device of having characters listen through the

stove. Yes. And the first time we see Nora telling her nephew about it and she's just showing it to him and then she puts her ear to it and then all of a sudden she hears her father's voice. And she didn't know he was going to be there. And it's like, and you can almost see her calculating like, is that a ghost? Like, what's going on? Am I hallucinating? Yeah. And then to have that come back where it's another, a relative listening as her mother is sort of being taken away. You know, like, I think that, yeah, the house stuff is really interesting. And the movie, I think, does sag a little bit when it leaves the house. You know, there are great moments. But I think that the stuff with Anders Danielson Lee is a little bit more schematic. Like, oh, he's left his wife, but now he doesn't want to be with me. Like, that's a little bit. Feels a little leftover from worst person in the world. Agreements a little bit.

even though I love seeing Anders any time he's in a movie. Oh, yeah, he's incredible. And also a doctor. Yeah, he's also a doctor. Yeah. He's a doctor. You should really watch Oslo I, 31st August and reprise, because he's very handsome in them and very good in them. Yeah.

I was bummed that didn't get a production design nomination for as much as cool as I thought the house was. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that it got that editing nomination, which the editing is interesting and good, but it's like, okay, if you're going to go that deep on this movie, then let's keep going. Yeah. You know, cinematography and production design. Sure. Yeah. Do we know if it's a real house? Can we visit?

That's a great question. I'm assuming that the exterior would be real. Maybe it's a house he's walked by in Nazlo and is like, I want to make a movie about that house? I don't know. Or maybe they built the whole thing. I genuinely don't know. Yeah, I have no idea either. So at the end of this movie, when they're on the set,

Petrier is careful to show this, the old cinematographer sitting to Gustav's left. Yeah. Are we to take that that? That means he dropped the Netflix, and so he was able to hire who he wanted to hire. So we think the Netflix has been issued, right? Yeah, that, that, I mean. It's been a return to. Yeah.

The fact that he got, he got to make the movie he wanted to make. His daughter's in the role. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Netflix probably left with Rachel. Yeah. Isn't the presumption that he sold the house in order to finance the film?

Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That would make sense, though. Yeah. Yeah. Also, do we think that she did hang herself at the end of this movie within a movie? Oh, like in the movie? When she shuts the door. Yeah. I don't know, though.

I think they're maybe trying to like hear the past a little bit there. Oh. Maybe I'm wrong. I feel like the maybe it does. You don't hear the chair fall. Yeah, but I also felt like it would make sense for her reenacting it to also then feel like it's closing the door on like her own depression, right? and her own kind of like ideation that she's like struggled with.

So that would make sense as a kind of exorcism sorts to reenact it. To my embarrassment, that fooled me, that scene where they pull out and it's just like, oh, they're filming a scene. I was just like, so good.

Dummy, of course they're filming a scene. You know what I mean? It's a very blue sky outside those windows. Yeah. I'm like, she was babysitting in a kid. What's what you're talking about? This, as we said, it's a movie we all like a lot,

though like not our favorite of his movies. But it is in a particularly difficult race for international film this year, I would say. You know, it's going up against, it was just an accident, the first film that Jafarati was able to make, since a ban on filmmaking was lifted, even though he was making films the whole time kind of in secret. The secret agent, which we talked about in the last episode. And it's gaining tons of momentum. Tons of momentum. And it just feels like this just incredible, like, enormous swing of a film. Then you've got Surat, this kind of like very jagged, interesting movie that feels like it speaks to this moment of like things, like the kind of like, like structures that we previously saw as kind of like stable, crumbling or in the background.

And then the voice of Hindrajab, which is, you know, has this like kind of like enormously heartbreaking story that it is reenacting. And that uses the real audio from from the day. death of this child. Yeah, I mean, sentimental is the only non-political. I mean, you could make,

there are politics in that movie for sure, but it's, you know, the other four are. They're significantly more minor scale than, uh, than these others. And it's,

the whole, the movie, as, it's awards sort of positioning is, is strange. I mean, because it did, you know,

it played very well it can. It won the Grand Prix, I believe, which is the second prize or third prize. Second. Um, and, uh, so it had like great momentum coming out of that.

And everyone, and I actually wasn't even that sold, but I was there with a former colleague who's a big, like, Oscar predictor, and he was like, oh, yeah, that's a lock for these categories. And I was like, really, though? I mean, I don't know. That seems far-fetched. But he was right, it turns out. But I think it hasn't quite, despite overperforming, arguably, and nominations, I think it hasn't held on to that momentum or that sort of heat, because I think what you pointed out just now, Allison, it's like it doesn't have that extra hook of urgency.

But it also really overperformed at the Oscars in terms of nominations. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's possible that it will then go on to not win anything, but I was surprised by how many nominations a guy. There was a time when it was like, oh, Scars Guard is winning. It's a career, it's for both a great performance in one movie, but also a career Oscar. And that got resurrected at the Globes a little bit. Now we're like, we're still now. And then the BAFTA's where I thought that's where he would repeat if he was going to repeat in the lead up to Oscars. It didn't go his way. And I was like, oh, I guess maybe he doesn't have this sewn up. And what Kyle Buchanan, our friend and colleague,

has been saying for months now is like, no, no, no, don't pay attention to what's happening before the Oscars. Sean Penn is winning that Oscar. The extreme degree of confidence Kyle has in that is both worth listening to and also, love you, Kyle, has me rooting against that so hard because I'm just like, you're so confident. I just need it to be wrong. Do you have any thoughts, Joe, on whether or not there would have been any wisdom in running Stellan in lead? I mean, it would have been more honest. I think, and I sort of felt the same way about Paul Meskell, who ended up not getting nominated even for supporting. Oftentimes, this is the, it's a, you know, it's a strategic calculus, right?

You're keeping them out of best actor, in part because best actor tends to be filled with often bigger stars. And certainly, Stel and Scarsgaard has been, you know, a character actor throughout his career and whatever. but it's also performances where, you know, Michael B. Jordan is playing twins, the two twin leads of the movie. Timothy Chalamee is playing Marty Mouser and Marty Supreme. He's the sole focus of that movie. DiCaprio's a little bit more has to sort of like share the spotlight a little bit more, but like Wagner Mora, Ethan Hawke. Like, it's as much about being the focus of your movie. I think every time this is, studios seem to think,

they can get away with it when it's like, yeah, but the movie's not really just about them. It's about, you know, it's, it's Jesse Buckley's story. It's Renato Rinesvist's story. They're the leads. There's this, you know, this fallacy that drives me crazy when people are just like, you know, but there's only one lead of the movie. It's like, no, there are movies with two leads. They're often. They're movies with four leads.

They're movies with zero leads sometimes, you know what I mean? But. Jay Kelly, because they never made. They never made it. Sometimes New York is. Absolutely. And you know what, like Donald Sutherland, New York has never been nominated. Nor has Tiffany New York Pollard.

And let's address that. Well, not yet. But I think that's sort of what you're getting in the case with. If you put Stellan and lead, it's very, it would have been very, very difficult, I think, for him to be as impressive, you know, and to stand out to voters. You know, for as much as I think it's a really great performance, I think if you're looking at it strategically, then you're thinking, well, in a supporting category, then you're putting him up against other people

who are sharing their movie's spotlight a little bit more. And it would have meant no Ethan Hawk, presumably. Right, which, and I'm so glad that happened. That's a nice nomination. Although, I don't know, I kind of think this is a bit of a digression. But I kind of, I was thinking about it the other day. I was like, maybe it was BAFRA related. I think that DiCaprio might be in fifth position.

I think he might be the weakest. He's definitely, a lot of people are still framing this as, like, Like, Timmy versus Leo. I don't think it that way. It hasn't been that way. If ever, it hasn't been that way for a long time. Yeah. And yeah, now it feels to me much more like.

Like, I think more like. Timmy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably Ethan. Yeah.

Yeah. I would say Leo's because that's the other thing is like they're given so many other things to one battle after another. They're not going to go out of their way to give Leo a second Oscar when there are other more attractive narratives or performances. And also like that role is kind of deliberately this like diminished non-heroic, you know, like that's the point of that role. Right. Like he's this kind of fool, you know, running around and trying to get to help and not actually accomplish it. Designed to be more appealing to critics types like us who look at that and be like, look at what he's doing playing a non-dynamic character and stuff like that. It's like awards voters just don't operate along those lines.

Yeah. So. Do you think having Elle in this movie? helps everyone else. Like, if you're, if you're making a foreign film, it's probably easier to get attention if you have a big American star in it.

Yeah, I think it for sure helps. I mean, it's definitely, I mean, Trier is a lock to direct the next Predator movie with Elle. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just exciting. It's really good. It is good.

It is a queer YA about... You are, you're correct. A young gay alien finding the strength of female... The Kuilfell's plays twins in that movie, El Fannie. You know who loved when I said that in my my THR review is all the men on Twitter.

I was going to say that. They really enjoy that take on their beloved predator. But no, I think to your, I mean, I think that at something like Cannes, after worst person in the world, Trier had no problem getting attention there. But having El Fanny and Stone Scores Guard in it, like, bumps it up that one extra level where it's not just winning awards it can, but then it has like a hope of a life past, you know, that festival. Well, and one thing I wanted to mention about the international feature race, too, is it's so interesting, in part because the Academy has become more international and thus the Best Picture race overlaps so much now with International Feature, where, like, you know, multiple international movies are now nominated for Best Picture. And so those movies, their buzz and their story sort of evolves over the course of the season in a lot more. interesting ways. Whereas, like, you remember, like, the SAG nominations happened and none of the international movies got anything from there. And the, and with the DJ and PGA, too, I feel like, right?

Like, it was a thing like, what's the problem? Well, they're not in our union, so, I mean, some of them probably are. Right. But I think, and so that then plays into a best picture nominee, like, sentimental value and, like, the Secret Agent in ways that, like, that wouldn't happen in the past when you didn't have any international movies. And so the narrative with, with, with, sentimental value and it was just an accident. It was also really interesting because sentimental value, I seemed like the favorite going into Cannes to, or one of the favorites to take the palm. And I feel like it was just an accident kind of leapfrogged it there. Yeah.

They've been sort of, they were sort of seen to be jostling with each other for a little bit. There are some thoughts about, I mean, I think this is unfair. It was just an accident because that's a brilliant movie. But like there were some thoughts on the ground at Cannes at the closing night party. where when we weren't staring at Oliver Lachey, the director of Syrac. Staring up, craning your next. But no, Julia Benosh was the president of the jury last year. And she had worked with Kyristami, who was a close colleague of Panahis.

And she knew Panahi for a long time, was really close with him, or to some extent, that they were like, oh, if his movie was even halfway decent, there was no chance that anything else would win. I think that's probably unfair because the movie is really good. And like, but I think it was also the vibe at can this year. And maybe it was, but now she was kind of leading that charge was like, we're not giving top prize to something that does not respond to the political times. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And sentimental value does not do that, which is fine. A movie doesn't have to do that.

Neither does hamnet, whatever. But like, but yeah, that was kind of. I mean, when worst person in the world was out, I definitely remember times on Twitter where I got the feeling from like, you know, yeah, you know when you know when you discover that someone. halfway across the world has followed your career long enough to hate you really passionately and in like very specific ways. But like had like responded to something he said, but like describing worst person than the world. And like Trier's films in general as like white person problems. And I'm like, sure, certainly on a global sense, they absolutely are about white person problems.

I mean, I was thinking about that with the dreams trilogy, you know, which is also from which are lovely. Lovely films that are also set in Oslo. So we were like, oh, these characters are able to embark on these, like, very delicate explorations about their identities and sexuality and their gender and about, like, what they're looking for in terms of romance, in part because they seem to have like a really solid, you know, stable. Right. Beautiful stained wood floors underneath them. Health care, blah, blah, blah, all this other stuff. One of them is like a chimney sweep and seems to have like this incredible, like, middle class life off of, yeah.

So maybe that's the subtle politics of these movies. They're like, see how it could. Yeah, yeah. Like, look, you'll have all of his time to like then, you know, have a broke and, like, a class with your daughter by, at revenge by casting an American star in the role she turned out. Or wistfully ride the ferry and flirt with a man. Exactly. Yeah. But I do wonder if that is something.

I mean, like, this is, yeah, a film that broke out into the larger, like, kind of, like, nominations pool. But, like, I do feel like, in a year. where it feels like there is a lot of urgency even if the Berlin Film Festival and no one wanted to talk politics including, you know. Yeah. But like that there is a lot of pressure to be like

to accommodate something that that or to award something that feels like it has some sense of urgency. Especially because like last year you can certainly, there are definitely politics in ANO for short. But like that also is a really fun time, you know, it's lighter than some other things, you know, maybe they were just like,

okay, now this year, though, with everything, like, we need to go this direction instead, which is kind of why I was holding on to the Scars Guard thing as being like, well, but that sort of can exist outside of that concern, and he can just win for a great career, and he was so good on Andor recently, and he's great in this movie and people like him, and he's, you know, basically sired the next generation of actors. Right, right. You know, like, so, like, he's contributing to the economy in that way. But I don't know.

I just don't feel it right now. Even the globe thing felt very like globes going to globe. And I just, the Bafta thing, I was like, that's where I really thought he was going to get it there. Yeah, all of the acting categories feel very unsettled now. Three of the four. I think, yeah, Jesse Buckley is still pretty. But even that one, she's been so locked in that one that it feels like, well, we just haven't talked about best actress, kind of at all.

Right, right, right. That's something crazy happening. We wouldn't know because, like, nobody's talking about it. But, yeah, supporting actress, supporting actor, and best actor all feel, excitingly, my worry is that, like, the saga, sorry, the actor awards are going to happen, Genuflect when you say. But, and then, like, my worries that, like, well, then, whoever wins those is just going to win the Oscars, and it's going to seem in retrospect a lot more boring.

And I hope that's not the case. I hope my, you know, my hope is that like, well, you know, different people who's won everything else can win at, you know, at actor awards. And then all of a sudden it's just like, well, we're going in there and like, nobody has a precursor advantage. And that's kind of the dream for an awards nerd like me. I'm like, yes. We were talking about this with our EP, Griffin Newman. And like, he was saying, like, oh, it reminds me of the year that when Tilda Switten ultimately won for Michael Clayton. Yeah.

Like everyone else had won in a different award show. Right. There's also the Marsha Gay Hardin year to consider there. Yep. And that's exciting. You know, I... It's a thrill, in fact, as I'm actually said. I do think that, like, Inga and Elle probably will split that vote a little bit.

I don't think they're at the front of the pack. I agree with that. But, like, Winmi Masako winning the BAFTA is really interesting to me. And Tiana Taylor still, I would probably place her at the head of that pack. But I think those two in Amy Madigan, are pulling votes and we'll see how it shakes out. Are these ranked choice? Not for acting.

Not for acting, just for best picture. So it's first past the post for acting. Yeah. Yeah. And they never will show us the numbers, even though that's the great wish of all. I keep sending them envelopes full of money. It's like, how close was blank. You're not wealthy enough to sway us.

Well, someday we'll do a heist of the Academy Museum and steal all that data. Yeah, and be like, we don't want to know who's going to win the next Oscars. Just give us the data. will be really mean and call up Glenn and Annette Benning. Look, do you want to know how close you were? My proposal is... Because I have good news and bad. Yes.

My proposal is that we treat it like the Warren Commission reports and just like after a certain number of years, like this year gets declassified. So like we won't be able to find out anything that we remember from our lifetimes. But like the 1964 Oscars now we can. Right. How close was Marcia Mason when she was. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

All of those Peter O'Toole losses. And then when we're very old, finally like slip like, oh, Lang almost lost for blue sky. Right. It's the Tonteen from the Simpsons. It's like the last remaining 1960, best actress nominee has finally died. We can reveal these totals. So they have that data.

Oh, yeah. Somewhere in a vault. Either at Pricewaterhouse or in some academy office somewhere. Unless there was some sort of suspicious fire before it was all digitized. The watergate of the, no, I'm going to write that movie. Yeah. All right. You know, we've talked about, last time we talked about the increasing.

kind of like international focus of the Oscars. But how much do you think the, like, I mean, the actors who got breakouts in international films and then have come and worked in English-language films? Like, we're seeing that a lot more, too. I mean, like Wagner Moore, we talked about. Leibung-Hun and No Other Choice did not end up getting nominated, but, like, I feel like his visibility in a flash of, like,

mostly unfortunate Hollywood roles. Yeah. You know, like, he was, like, a known commodity, even for people who did not actually pay a lot of attention to South Korean cinema. Right. And then, like, Renata now, Renata Reinsva has, like, started to make some of American films. She has not, like, dove full force into some, like... She's doing, like, interesting kind of smaller things. Yeah.

But, like, things that people have seen, right? Like, people have liked a different man, for instance. I thought she was so good in that. Yeah. And she's got some... She's going to be in backrooms, the A-24 movie being directed by a teenager. 20. He's 20. Sorry, now he's 20. Why are they doing that?

I don't know. I mean, maybe this kid's brilliant, but like, I don't know, anyway, whatever. Yes, it's just going to be a ad. That'll get it more attention. I'm just going to have some family guy, like, GIFs, just like, spinning. That would be really good, like, the jump scare at the end is like. The top of the screen is going to be like someone doing a play-through of a video game. The bottom screen is going to be like, yeah, family guy, like they do in TikTok. And then Renata is just going to be acting over the other corner. Yeah.

Yeah. And then she's going to, yeah, keep saying, let's go. She's in one of my most anticipated movies coming up, which is Fjord. She's going to be, she plays the Fjord and Fjord. No, her and Sebastian Stan in the new Christian Munjou movie. Oh, right. That's assumed to be at Cannes, which would be interesting. I think it's English language.

I could be wrong about that. But it's certainly Christian Mungu working with Hollywood folk for the first time. You know, my hunch would be that, you know, Ryan's who, by the way, watching the movie again, what a face. As someone who has rosacea and my face often looks very flushed, I appreciate that that is also true of Renata. I don't want to make any comments about her appear. I mean, she's gorgeous. But I was watching at the movie again, and I was like, yeah, same girl.

Yeah, yeah. I look very red-faced a lot of the time, yeah. Just that sort of placid, but thoughtful. Like, there's something so just fascinating to watch about her. I think that she will have a nice career, be it, you know, in your art house, maybe an occasional sort of dip into something Hollywood adjacent. Um, Inga, I'm daughter Lilius, like, I hope the same for her. Yeah.

Um, my hunch is that she'll probably do more Norwegian TV, theater, all that stuff. Like, everyone will be, like, benefited by this. Yeah. But unfortunately, the sort of global film economy seems to, that is governed by the U.S. sort of interest will, like, in some senses, will probably be like, we're going to pick one or one of you every couple years. We're not going to let you all in. Come on. Like, that's too much. But, yeah.

And I think that Renata's that one. Renata Reinsva in a Mia Hansen Love movie, what would you do to make that happen? I mean, I would fund it. That's what I would do. I would rob the academy. I would rob a bank. I would rob the academy museum, sell that data. Yeah, that would be great.

She'd be perfect. Before we go, I thought it would be funny to check in on the vulture.com Instagram account, which... Oh, wait, no. Why are we doing that? Well, first, for people who aren't, who haven't been following us in the beginning, our friends at Vulture, they are clipping video of this show. and putting it on their Instagram and other social accounts. And for last week, they clipped us talking about Wagner Mora's wonderful performance in The Secret Agent.

And what do you know? You're looking through the comments there. And it's almost entirely in Portuguese. I was going to say, Brazilian flag. Brazil, Brazil. Brazil. Brazil film internet represents. This is becoming like the new sort of like put the number, like put a listicle in your headline and or whatever.

And you're going to get traffic. It's like just. The last two years. You know, on Oscar nomination morning, you sign on, you pull up the YouTube, and then they have the chat there. And the last two years, I signed on and I clicked it, and it literally is just like a rapidly unfolding list of resilient. What is this? The Azores? It's just that over and over and over again.

But now the crucial, I mean, it's, it's, it's, they're very active. The crucial question has been, are the comments, like, are they favorable? Oh, yes. There's a lot of, a lot of pro-Vagner. The actor, not the composer. Although there might be some of those It is comments Where are we going next week?

Oh, yeah. So we are leaving Norway And flying back to America But also back into the past Of sinners Yeah Which I think you can probably find It might be on movie

I don't know It's a pretty small movie But let's seek it out If you get a black You know like a black copy of it So long as you're doing video for Instagram, you're going to break out your Irish jig, I think, at some point, right? It's, I mean, it was inevitable at some point.

Okay, okay. Yeah, looking forward to it. Yeah, so everyone, if you haven't yet, watch centers or re-watch it, which I'm excited to do. Yeah, I haven't seen it since the spring of last year. And we'll see you back here. And Joe, thank you for being here. Thank you. Good luck.

How many more nominated films do you have to watch? I have three short films still to go. That's it? That's still, yes. Oh, wow. Cuckooho was my last feature that I watched yesterday. So, yeah, I'm just not. Can you give us any kind of tease about what might be toward the bottom or toward the top?

I watched a movie about dinosaurs the other day that I didn't really care for. So that could be near the bottom. I will say the best picture nominees this year. That's a really, really mean description of the Diane Warren documentary. The Diane Warren documentary is going to be higher than a lot of people want it to be. And by that, I mean, it's not in the bottom five. Okay. Yeah, I think the best picture nominees is.

are all generally towards the upper half of the list. It's a good year. Yeah. Well, people should look out for that on vulture.com. And also, while we're plug in, Joe,

what's coming up on this had Oscar buzz? This had Oscar buzz. We just had an episode go up on Robert Altman's The Company, the ballet movie. He followed up Gosford Park with, him and Neve Campbell. Made what,

400 million worldwide? Oh, yeah. It was a huge blockbuster. And then coming up soon, we did an episode on the Don Roos movie happy endings that Maggie Jellenhall got an

independent spirit nomination well because she sings Billy Joel beautifully Billy Joel one of my things we talked about there was like why did she never just like record a cover

of Billy Joel I had a non-al album of Billy Joel covers yeah I had a non-Ipod non-Zoon I had some other secret third MP3 player

that could fit about 40 songs and two of them were Jillen hall singing yeah she's got a great voice so yeah

okay well I'll be you're listening that while we're plugging also So people please subscribe to Premiere Party.com, my newsletter, doing fun things there, including coming up, my recap of the Oscars from 20 years ago, which will include probably hundreds of gifts,

which I have to make. I always look for that. All right. All right, we'll see you next week. Critical Darling's is a blank check production in association with Vulture. Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch,

executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production. and distribution by Anne Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth, and Jennifer Jean.