Blank Check with Griffin & David - Critical Darlings: Sinners And The Academy’s Growing Genre Acceptance with Sam Sanders

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

This week we’re joined by Sam Sanders of The Sam Sanders Show to discuss Sinners, the most nominated film in Academy Awards history. With sixteen nominations across directing, writing, music, and acting categories, Sinners is a somewhat surprising record breaker, as genre films, especially films with horror elements, are rarely awarded by The Academy.  On this episode we discuss the film, why it was able to break through, if Sinners counts as a genre film; and if so, what genre it represents. We also get into what effect the Warner Bros. Paramount merger might have on the Oscars, the film’s blunt sexuality, Michael B. Jordan’s double act, and what to make of the film's coda. Finally, Sam makes an impassioned case for Sung Song Blue and Kate Hudson’s nominated performance.  Check out Sam’s interviews with Kate Hudson, as well as some of the cast and crew of Sinners on The Sam Sanders Show. Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the award season conversation. One contender at a time. Please welcome to this stage, your hosts, Richard Lawson and Allison Wilmore. Well, thank you, Marie, as ever, for that spirited introduction. We are joined, as ever, by producer Ben. Hello, Ben. Hello. And we have a very special guest today from the Sam Sanders show by KCRW.

With for, I don't know. We have the eponymous Sam Sanders. Hello. It's so good to be here. We're thrilled to have you. I'm a fan. Honored to be in the number. Catching you coming through town was so serendipitous.

It all just happened to work out. Yeah. And putting, well, at least me to shame wardrobe-wise. No, definitely. I should have stepped up today. You stepped in and I was like, this was a suit that I wore yesterday at the conference and the one that I wore earlier today for another interview. You know how French people, they're like, you only need like three outfits in your wardrobe.

Oh, yeah. I'm like, I believe in that. Like, I'll wear this for everything professional for the next three years. years. Exactly. And there'll be holes in it and I'll start over again. That sounds like a great plan. For listeners, Sam is wearing a beautiful brown blazer and a black turtleneck. Yeah. I forget we're not just in solely video. So we are gathered here today to talk about sinners. But before we do that, I thought we would catch up with you, Sam, in terms of like how you're feeling about this crop, this year's crop of movie. Like Oscar-nominated movies, movies in general. How have you found this season? Is it a good one for you?

I have been overall kind of happy that there hasn't felt as if there's been a big Oscar scandal that sucked out all of the air from Oscar season. I remember being annoyed by week two of Amelia Perez Gate. Like, we get it. Yeah. That tweets. Can we talk about something else? And I thought that the Marty Supreme mini controversy might. get bigger, it didn't. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. It feels like a lot of the time in this

season has been spent talking about the actual movies, and I appreciate that. Yeah, we kept waiting for there to be a more solid Oscar villain because it does feel like that's almost a requirement every year, especially a year like this where we've had a really long Oscar season. There's a lot of time from the tides to turn and turn again. But it's been, yeah, nice to be like, there is not one movie where you're like, I like this movie, but it is the villain this year. And like everyone hates it. Yeah. And like, I wanted to make it. make Hamnet my Oscar season villain. But in every interview, I am so impressed by Chloe Zhao.

Yeah. Yeah. She has a wonderful humanist approach to her work that I love, even if I don't love that film. Yeah. One thing I have enjoyed is that I keep seeing on focuses like Instagram feed, like kind of fun Chloe Zhao. Dance to Rihanna.

Let's go. I'm like, I appreciate that there comes a point in like the trudge of events where you're like, even this movie, which is about child. Death and grief. Yeah. We have to do like a fun one. It's all good. Yeah.

And I feel like, you know, with one battle after another, once that dropped on HBO Max, I feel like there was some pushback against that movie. But like you said, it was engaging with the text of the movie. It wasn't about something that an actor did or whatever. So if people don't like every nominated movie, that's fine. But if they're watching it, they're discoursing about it, that's vastly preferable to like someone made a gaff. And now it's the whole story. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. What are your sort of favorites of this kind of this crop? It's hard to say because I think I respect the two front runners in very distinct ways. I love how one battle as a movie leaves me asking a lot more questions. And sinners as a movie leaves me asking none. It is so beautifully fulfilling as a film. And so I love them both in different ways for that reason. I think I am most just thinking if you're the Oscars strategically,

what are the best wins for your survival and for the industry's survival? We know that they're sweating. They're going to go to YouTube soon. They get it. The future is here. They aren't there yet. They got to get there.

In terms of picking a best picture winner, what best picture pick best sets up the academy and the film industry for just continued butts in seats at theaters? I personally think that by the numbers, the choice that makes the most sense for the longevity of this industry is sinners.

But I know. that this choice is not a business decision, it's an artistic decision, and so. Even though definitely there are powers that be behind the scenes who are like, can we make it more of a business decision? Right. I feel like there is a consciousness about that, which is why, you know, they expanded to the 10 Best Picture nominees after the, it was about the Dark Night not getting nominated for Best Picture, right?

And then that got inception in a couple years later or whatever. So there is that motivation, and I agree with you that sinners, like, for a lot of reasons, would be that pick. Yeah. But ultimately, I think individual voters are not thinking that way. I know, whenever I read one of the anonymous Oscar ballots and you're like, they should stop doing those. No, but I love them.

Why? People keep sitting for them. They're all so chaotic. Every time you're like, people, baby. They're oftentimes you're just like, I hate this person. Yes. But I can you explain what those are for?

Sure. So like different, usually the trades, it's the trades will like get, you know, because you're not supposed to go out and be like, here's what I'm voting for. I have the producer, blah, blah, blah. So like, they'll do it anonymously. And they'll be like, here's how I'm going to vote. and here is my explanation for why. And sometimes it's like,

I thought this was an incredibly important moving film. Or the shrimp was cold. Yeah, exactly. Or like, I got to take a picture, you know, with her for Davenny Jr. after this, and I really like that. So I'm good over for him. You know, like, it's really just like a wild collection of reasoning

that you just realize how deeply personal and subjective and like, and of the moment, like you're catching someone. But yeah, I don't know. I love that. I mean, we're recording this. Now, I think voting just started yesterday, I believe, our final voting. So we are just at the start of this final week of voting. It is always a good reminder when you read those, even if they're so infuriating to be like, oh, right.

These are the people. That's it. That's how it works. It is not like, it is not a collective, as much as we talk about them, like, they're this kind of collective mind meld. You're like, no, it's a bunch of people with weird taste. And also it's like, they are, a lot of them are just like lifelong Angelino industry folks. And I know those people. They're a little weird. Yeah.

They're a little weird. They live in their own worlds and they don't think like the rest of us. And there's different kinds of weird depending on like what part of town they live in. You know, what branch of the academy they're in. Yeah, but they're all weird. And bless them, love them, keep making what you make,

but they're weird. Sam, we're a little insulated from L.A. sort of Hollywood stuff here. Do you interact with film people a lot? Many years ago when I was a news producer still, I got to cover the Oscars, I want to say two or three times. And I would always just like sneak on.

the red carpet around. Now most of my coverage, a lot of the nominees will come to me to be interviewed. So we actually this season got a bunch of folks from sinners. We got that costume designer Ruth E. Carter, who's a legend. We got Raphael Sadiq, who wrote the song that sets up the big musical montage and sinners. So I've been in conversation a lot with folks around the art of that film, but in general, there was a phase of my career where I tried to go to the FYC events. Now I like avoid them. I avoid them because I want to watch the movie in a way that will allow me to watch it as like a citizen and then talk about it like with real people. So I would much rather see the nominees in a theater and then like talk to a friend about them. When I go to

these FYCs, I'm just like, what is up, what is down? Who's like, who's like zoom in me right now? Who's playing? I don't even vote and I'm like, who's playing me? And I find that sometimes those FYC going to sort of fancy screenings where they like feed you and there's drinks after or whatever. Sometimes it, maybe it does sway me toward that movie. But just as often, I'm like, ugh. This was disgusting.

I'm put off by it. So if you see it more in a vacuum or your own context, you can see it. Yeah, more purely, I guess. I was at one years ago. I forget what Amy Adams' vehicle it was, but she had to be at that. I mean, take your picture. She's had a lot. It was one of them.

And I remember her just like standing there at the afterwards, like the handshaking time. She just looks so sad. Not sad, bored. Yeah. And I went over and shook her hand. She was like, hi. And I felt her emoting, I don't want to have to be here. And I feel like all of them feel that way, especially as the season to get longer and longer. Like, who enjoys the Oscar campaign? Well, I think that's the thing is like there becomes this point where what carries someone through is your stamina to just be acting glad to glad hand with people months in. And the performance of gratitude. I remember when a lot of the actors who were in everything everywhere all at once were on the circuit, they almost by the end of it could cry on cue.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because they have all the stories. Yeah. And I'm so grateful. And you have to be careful about that. I mean, look, it didn't harm everything everywhere. They won everything.

Yeah. But, like, I remember maybe it sticks out for me for whatever reason. But when Kate Winslet was going through her, like, awards year with, she had. two movies, she had Revolutionary Road and the reader. She kind of kept flipping between those two and ultimately won for the reader. That by the time she won the Oscar, people were like, oh, are you surprised? Come on. And it's a different thing, you know, winning an Oscar versus winning a sag or whatever, but you have to kind of calibrate that surprise and enthusiasm to kind of build.

To build. Yeah. And I don't think she was doing that. Yeah. Well, and I want to say, I'm going to discuss it on this show or one of the shows that I listen to do in this awards industrial complex. They were like, oh, yeah, this. season, Salome has pulled like a really interesting sleight of hand. Because, you know, for the earlier part of his

press store, he was performing online control, if not a white kid with the black scent hanging at the cool kids table. And then all of a sudden he turned it around and was like, the grateful, young, earnest artist. Shout out to the code switch. But I noticed. I was like, okay. It's like a concert. He's doing costume changes. Right, right. Or just, you know, when you're doing multiple characters in one-man show and then you're like

turn and you're like that show of it. Yep, exactly. Yeah. And in so doing, I think has not tired people out as much. You know, I keep watching.

Yeah. It's interesting. He also like, he has maintained a bit of aloofness, which I think is very canny. You know, even when he is doing these outrageous stunts, there's like a bit of a move

that I think he understands like to be a movie star now it is helpful to still retain whatever the very contemporary version of like having a little bit of aloofness. And some mystery around. Yeah.

Yeah. A mystery. Yeah. And I would hope in terms of like the long campaign trail that because sinners came out, you know, practically, I mean like almost a year ago at this point, it was like nine months ago, that they had little downtime maybe and then could kind of reunite, you know, in the fall and be like, oh, how was your summer? You know, well, it went pretty well, I guess.

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think that that may be a credit to like a couple movies like everything everywhere that come out a bit earlier in the seasons. Then you kind of get a reprieve and then have that. new energy too. But like we used to assume that that was impossible. Yes, you can't do it. You can't do that.

You have to do fall. You have to start at one of the, ideally one of the fall festivals or just have a premiere then. And then you just follow the plan. You build from there. The idea of being like, you came out in the spring, which actually now has been not that.

Yeah. It's not unusual. I feel like we're seeing a new, I don't know, a new rhythms for how you can do that award campaign. We've kind of broken the old, old plan of like now awards. And Sinners has broken so many of the old plan, so many parts of the old plan.

Like it is a horror film, but it is a serious best picture contender that rarely happens. Although I think one could argue the extent to which Sinners is a horror film. We'll talk more about it later, but watching it back, I said, this might just be an action movie with vampires, which fine. Yeah. But is it horror? That said, I feel like in spite of the length of the Sinners award season, all of the big moments in the award season for that movie have come externally, not internally. I remember the first moment in which everyone said we need to have an Oscar chat about this movie was in the backlash to the skeptical coverage of the film's first week box office

take. And then now I've seen another renewed kind of conversation about the way this film, this type of film, a black film made by black people, how it moves in this world after the Bafta Tourette's incident. And so so much of the ways in which the community is, considering sinners, it's like these external things that are happening, which is I kind of like it. Everything about sinners in this award season is making Hollywood as an enterprise ask some hard questions of itself. Namely, are we the vampires? Sure, sure. I'm here for it.

Yeah. Can we rewind a little bit to remind everybody what happened when sinners came out? Yeah, so basically, at that time, there were. was this speculating that the two heads of Warner Brothers, you know, who are working under David Zazlov were like rumored to about to be fired. Wait, if Cynarge gets best pictures, does Zazlov get a win too?

No. I don't think he has a producer credit on. Okay, so he's not going to be a fun stage. They can maybe they can put the trophy in their lobby or whatever. Okay, okay. No, he doesn't go on his desk. But basically like he was unhappy, you know, they were spending too much on movies, whatever. And then people looked at the slate and they said, like,

I don't know, this like vampire movie from the Black Panther guy, Zach had to make much money these days, no one's going to theaters. And then one after the other, starting with, I guess, the Minecraft movie, Warner Brothers just started having hits after hit. But it was a little bit later that the press caught up to that.

So when the movie was coming out, there was all of this doubt about whether or not this movie would do well, you know, for all these various reasons. And when the movie was a massive hit, people were like, wait, why were you counting this out? Well, and there were headlines after that first amazing box office

I think it was like 40-something million dollars it made and did well internationally too, which folks say a black film can't do. It did. A lot of the headlines ended in question marks. Is this really enough? Is this big enough? I think I was most offended by an episode of The Town, a show which I love, where Franklin Leonard of the Blacklist had to basically school Matt Bellany and say everything about the way you're talking about this movie reveals some problems on your end. not the movie's end. Yeah. Right? And I think that the reaction to that and the ways in which the trades had to change their tune, I felt like that was when the Oscars race for sinners began in earnest. David. What?

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make us money back, but as soon as that movie did okay over the holiday season, some of the trades called Timothy Shallamey the cane of Christmas. Yeah. You remember a lot? Sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, he did kill Santa Claus, so he is technically the king of Christmas. It's a weird portion of his Wikipedia. He really died deep into that. Personally, I cut you up. I'm sorry. Oh, I was going to say,

We should also touch on the unusual and like kind of like not at first of its kind, but like very, very rare deal that Ryan Coogler made, right, for this film. He gets the rights to it in 25 years. Negotiating for the rights. Like when there was like a bidding war for the rights, right? It was final cut. He won a final cut. And then yes, the ownership reverts to him in 25 years, which is like just not something

that you see a lot of filmmakers being able to. But also, when I was talking about that with friends of mine from Texas where I'm from, And I was like, this is a new thing. My friends are like, well, shouldn't it always be that way? Right, exactly. Shouldn't it always be that way? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it's shout out to Ryan Coogler to getting the industry to a place that one would have assumed it could have been at decades earlier.

Right. I mean, you have to become one of this, like, a very small group of, like, very powerful filmmakers to apparently pull off what feels like a deal that should be available to filmmakers all over the place. You know, this is your, especially when you're like, this is your, you're like, this is your, you're like, this is. your intellectual property, right? A new idea that he wrote with his wife. Like, come on. And, you know, the fact that, like, whoever was, you know, giving him that deal

but was, like, looking at his right, like, so, well, you've only directed Black Panther its successful sequel, directed or produced three really box office hit boxing movies. Yeah. Like, it's like, that should have been an easy, yeah. Yeah, totally. He doesn't.

All hits no skills. Yeah. But I do think the part of that kind of, like, the trade that kind of, like, was, like, rooted a bit and being like, oh, and you want this deal as well. How dare you? You know?

Yeah, there was a bit of like, this is not how things work. Yes. This is not how we do business. And it is very, whether you mean it or not, when you're making that kind of statement of this is not how it works.

You have to understand that the way that those opinions are perceived is informed by the race of everybody involved. Sure. It is, you know? And I think a lot of folks at the end of this Oscars campaign season, compared to at the start of it, they've had a little bias training 101

dealing with this movie and how we talk about it. And you know what? Good for them. Learn some lessons. Learn something from this. Well, and there was also when it was when the kind of gaze

on the movie was like, okay, we admit it. It is a huge hit. Well, okay, is it an awards movie? Part of the reason some people doubted that it might be was that, well, Warner Brothers has this big Paul Thomas Anderson movie

coming in a few months and that clearly. Not as big as sinners. Well, exactly. But I do think that, and I don't want to give credit where it's undue, but like someone on that side of things did manage to successfully run both of those campaigns. And they don't seem to be fighting. No. Like everyone's getting a compliment.

It's a rising tide lifts all boats kind of thing. And that behind them, the studio is in this crazy disarray in terms of it. They're probably guaranteed a best picture in this studio. One of them will most. And it might be their last ever. We don't know. As we're recording this, Paramount has just seemingly won and beat out Netflix in terms of acquiring this kind of like battle to acquire Warner Brothers. At least they have made what has been declared the better offer and Netflix has declined to counter.

AKA the one that Trump doesn't want to kill. Right. And, you know, this whole thing has felt like a real. Susan Rice is involved for some reason. There's a lot going on. I mean, you have like, yeah, like Trump like putting Islam on the scales and you all. also have Netflix being like, sure, we'll keep putting movies out in theaters.

Like, we won't put it in, we'll put it on a paper, but like we definitely will keep doing it or theater. Right, exactly. So, like, watching this whole thing, you just feel like whatever happens here, it is going, the consolidation is going to be bad news or, you know. And will this new company post-merger be more or less likely to greenlight a film like sinners? So, as you said, Oscar voting has started. Do events like this affect voting or have they?

Do we have any way of knowing that? My hunch would be if there is an effect on centers in specific, I think it would only be positive. Because I think, like you're saying, it's a great economic story for the academy, for the industry. People genuinely love that movie. It got the most nominations. And I think if they think it's facing unfair headwinds

because of corporate stuff happening, I mean, most of the academy, there are a lot of producers in it, but it's a lot of artists, you know, not the producers aren't artists. But like, you know, creative producers are anyway. But like I think that there's enough sort of narrative in there about, yes, the film itself and what the film itself is saying, but also what it's kind of the economy around that film is saying that people would want to champion it even more because it's the future of movies like it seems to be in jeopardy. Yeah.

I also, I mean, it feels like Warner Brothers is going to walk away with Best Picture. However it goes, right? And I feel like. For Minecraft. For Minecraft. Everyone is the first write-in winner. But like, I feel like there are, however people, you know, and they make this like connection in their head, they're both stories that feel like they're going against the grain of like this

inevitable push towards like, you know, even more and more corporatized, IP-driven media, like to be like, oh, these are like two autorist films. They are movies that are made with like these intensely personal visions that are. that audiences have responded to. And yeah, that's what you think Hollywood would solve all of Hollywood's problems, right? Like, this is what we're asking for. And, of course, instead, like, everything's crumbling

in the background, like, just walking away from the explosion, right? But at least for now, we have this big, last hurrah of celebrating these movies. Yeah, our... Those are structures that make them... Yeah. Our executive producer Griffin had a great line about it

where he was like, it feels like they're planning both a birthday party and a funeral at the... Wow. For the same night, you know, because it's like this could be the end of this thing or the beginning of a new or ever renewed era of big robust studio films with something to say like that make money. Yeah. Winning awards. I'm excited to see Barry Weiss as Wonder Woman.

What? Wait, is this? No, no. If Paramount were to buy Warner Brothers. Yeah. Yeah, they'll do some synergy and Nelly Bowles will play somebody. Oh, God. But yeah, I think regardless of how sinners perform.

in a couple Sundays from now, like it is one of the huge success stories of the year. I think it will perform well. We were saying... There's no way you can't. No, 16 nominations. Yeah, that's it.

It's got a record breaking. Well, tell Scorsesee that, because he's walked in with 11 nominations to walk out zero before. I am on the record as saying, like, right before the nominations, I was feeling like this entirely vibes-based, like, uh-oh, I'm worried about sinners.

And then it went on to do, so my vibes radar is clearly off. But, like, yes, you never know. Like, I feel like, again, You're dealing with this mysterious. Yeah. Although I would put money on Ludwig. Oh, Ludwig.

Gorenson. He's getting that Oscar. How do you not give it to that man? I feel like... He's also very handsome. Oh, I need... That is what is important. I feel like I can see a world also where best picture and best director split.

Yeah. You know, and, you know, Ryan Googler has had to, of course, then answer this question so many times from, like, very... He's got a pretty face. I'm not sure. Not entirely sold. Honestly, it depends. I just remember seeing what he won for something.

Yes. And I saw on the stage and I was like, oh, hello. He's got great hair. Yeah. He wrote, This is America. The Chantacabino song. Did he?

Yeah, he did. He's multifaceted. But yes, you're right, Allison, there could be a split. I think that Paul Thomas Anderson is, like, going to win best director. I think that cooler probably will win screenplay.

Yeah. And then it's a matter of, like, which one takes best picture. But it will walk away with awards for sure. Oh, yeah. So you mentioned that this has been a long campaign. Yes. But I guess this is in two phases, right? Before nominations are announced, you've got people kind of campaigning in a like, please notice us sort of way. And then after the nominations come out, you sort of campaign formally. But are there specific rules or ways that you play that

that are different? I mean, phase two, which they call post nominations, you know, in the campaigning biz, that you'll see a lot of movies then sort of start to take on a different message like the secret agent has like kind of a new tagline in its campaigning

so does sentiment of value I don't have it in the tip of my tongue but it's something this movie's kind of confusing well yeah yeah yeah it's actually a poster with just like a small fond

description of what happened in the movie no but like you know imitation game year after they got the nominations the nominations the campaign became you know, honor the man, honor the film. So they start to try to, um,

Nora was a dream, no, no, that's Marty's dream. Nora was like, choose love or something like that. They try to condense the messaging of the movie into something that's really sellable. I don't think sinners really needs to do. Well, sinners, it is, like, don't be the vampire. Right, right.

Like, it has its own thing. You know what to do. There's also, like, don't scare the chickens, you know. Like, they've all come together around your movie. Now, you only have a few more weeks. Don't get them to run away from you, you know? Don't put a foot wrong. And I don't think that,

centers is in danger of that. No. Well, this is also what I've been noticing with everyone that's on the campaign trail for that movie. One, they've got them all out. They're all out. And all of them are so incredibly poised. Yeah.

Yeah. They're not slipping. They're not tripping. They know how to do it. They look good. They sound good. Like, that whole operation feels like, to the extent of movies campaign for Oscars can be a well-run ship.

Mm-hmm. Is that fair to say? I don't know. Like, oh, yeah. They've got it together. Yeah. No, I think that there's a sleekness to it that it probably began with like just a well-run production, you know, on set, you know, that then kind of carries through. And it's a nice mix of like first-time nominees and people who've been to the party many times before.

And so it's just, yeah, I'm impressed by what they've done. And I don't know when my doubt about it being an Oscar movie went away, but it was pretty early on, I think, in the whole story of that. Like, because it just seemed like it had that juice. Yeah. Well, it is interesting saying sinners do it all. with all of their top line folks and comparing that to one battle and I'm just like, where is Sean Penn?

Where is Benish? Shoking Catholic and Glove. But like they're not doing the circuit, which fine, I don't believe in the circuit personally, but like this is what we have to do. The big names in that film aren't doing as much, which fine, right? Yeah. I mean, I feel like also, well, I'm sure they're like,

they just don't want to put Sean Penn out there that much. And they're like, you have Leo. I mean, Leo, I don't think was ever a frontrunner in the in for really I just don't think really yeah I mean like we've been talking a lot about how at this point we feel like you have timmy and then uh Wagner mora like really coming up behind and like if there is an upset like he would be my guess but leo is also just like he's not someone who wants to put himself out there a lot and also everyone is like he's got it he's good he has his award yeah no one feels the need to give this guy an award because he needs this one exactly yeah there are too many photos of him on yachts and vogromer is doing a smart thing we're at these FYC parties, if you ask nicely, he'll softly whisper the explain the plot of the movie in your ear. How long do they take?

Well, as long as you want. Oh. But yeah, I mean, I think that, like, if we want to get into the movie a little bit. Well, could we first also, like, touch briefly on, I feel like you brought up the idea of, like, how much of a horror movie is this? Oh, well, yeah.

And I think, like, like, it is an interesting question because, like, part of the, you know, one of the challenges that has been put forth towards sinners is that genre, genre movies, well like specific genres, right? Like mostly like horror, sci-fi, like they can get nominated, but we still tend to see them getting like technical awards more.

Like there's an idea that they're not as serious or somehow. They're not, like they don't quite fit within the rubric of an Oscar movie. So there have been one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, I think films nominated that fought like horror films before. So we have the Exorcist, Jaws, if you count Jaws, which I would. Silence of the Lambs, the sixth sense, like swan, if you count that, which I think is hard-to-art doable. Yeah. Get out.

And the substance. One of those is one, you know. Science of the Lambs. Which, by the way, came out February of its year. So it won the best picture, Oscar, over a year after it came. Yeah, yeah. It's a rare story there. Yeah.

But, like, not a genre that's had to really fight for that, the win. But also, because Silence of the Lambs has overlap where it's also a police or FBI procedural, which like the 70s, they were given best picture to French connection and stuff like that. Right, right. There's no element of the supernatural in it, which is like the test. Unless you count the performance. Hey.

Otherworldly. Yeah. Yeah. My biggest genre question of sinners is actually like what genre is it. I am not sure it's a full-throated horror film. I think it's more of an action movie. Y'all's colleague and one of my favorite

critics, Angelica J. Bashan, in her review, she said that the movie is always a little bit afraid to lean into the full horror of it all. Yeah. There are moments that are gory and disgusting in the way that, like, vampire body horror should be, but like the pure jump, scare horror feeling that you think you get a lot in a horror movie, you don't get a lot of it in this one. No. And so for me, it's like, is this a horror movie? Is this an action movie? Is this a race movie? Is this a musical? Mm-hmm. I mean, is it in some parts when it's really being earnest about race and history? Is it a little

bit after school special. I like that. I love that school special. But yeah, this movie, the longer I sit with it and the more I rewatch it, I'm like, eh, it's not a horror movie, but that's okay. Yeah, I think the question of, is it a horror movie? Like, when I first saw it, I was like, well, he kind of really rushes, like, he takes 40 minutes before you even really get to, like, you see Jack O'Connell the first time. Yeah. And then, you know, you have the, the music in the barn and all that. And then the violent stuff happens incredibly quickly. And then And it's kind of over just as quickly. It's like half an hour, I think, or less.

Yeah. And at first I was like, is that a failure? Does maybe cooler for all of his talents not really have a keen command of horror? But then rewatching it, I was like, oh, I don't think that's what he's intending it to be. Yeah. And he's talked about the impetus for making the film. It was about his uncle, who was a blues musician, I think. This movie at its emotional core is a drama about the relationship between black music, the

sacred and the secular. This is a music movie. Right? And so to make it also function and be okay as a horror vehicle, as a vampire vehicle, as a period piece, it speaks more to his skill than to maybe his lack of focus. Yeah. I think that there's somewhere in here is a 90-minute movie that is leaner and has fewer moving parts and is more one thing. But I'm okay with what this is. Yeah. Yeah, I love how many ideas it's filled with. And like the fact that it is, it pulls from different genres. I would agree. I don't think it is really a horror movie.

I don't think he seems to have a lot of interest in that aspect of like, you know, like when the vampires do appear, he deliberately cuts away from, right? Like every time when you have, you know, like a character, like is walking back and then you see Jack O'Connell's character like leap up into the air and then it cuts.

Yeah, with Hillie Steinfeld. Yeah, exactly. Like you, he cuts away from a lot of the things that you would expect of like the scare. Yeah. I also just wanted more of Jack O'Connell's character. Yeah. A little more backstory.

He's so good. He is very good. He's always been really good. He's always been really good. Remember when there was that moment where you're like, oh, he's going to be the next big star? He's the one. And then he kind of like, it can quite work out. Well, he went to, he was like, okay, character actor route.

That's what I'm going to go. He's too pretty to be a character actor. But I like him. I like him being this kind of unsettling. Yeah. Like, I feel like he uses his looks well for that. But, yeah. I mean, I do feel like, for me, the part of the movie that kind of, I, like, drops me out of it a bit is when it gets

to the action. I think because it's so much less interesting to me than the kind of incredibly rich dynamics that it's heading up before. It's a result, like, I mean, it's not quite the resolution, but it is a kind of like a resolution that like feels to me less

interesting than what everything it came before, you know? Well, and I feel like so much of Ryan Coogler's work, if I had to put like a North Star or a mission statement on it, it is trying to have anyone who views this movie to begin to respect and understand the ways in which you do not have an America

or Western culture without black people. His movies are asking Americans to look at blackness and understand its importance to the lives that all of us live today. And those are the most interesting parts of sinners for me. The horror is secondary. The vampires are cute but secondary. Like when this movie is dealing with race, very few filmmakers can make a race movie that's also a blockbuster.

And that is when Ryan's in his bag, I think. Same with the Black Panther films. Like he made a race movie, two of them. Like these really progressive films on ideas of race also blockbusters. I mean, I thought Creed should have won best picture. Like I think it's incredible. And I think one of the best aspects of it, beyond just that it's such a good boxing movie, like a kind of really. the kind where you want to, like, cheer and cry.

Yeah. You actually like. Yeah. Like in the kind of final fight. Are the ways in which it uses, like, the original, like, text of Rocky to then kind of subvert and critique. Like, also with a lot of obvious affection as well, to, like, critique the kind of racial dynamics of that movie and the ways in which this character is held up basically as, like,

the Great White Hope without him ever acknowledging it, you know? Like, it really, like, overturns that and is, like, incredibly, like, so thoughtful in how it interrogates that it was material. I think, yeah. It makes these race films that don't, you go in not knowing that you're going to get a lesson. And I like that.

Yeah. And like, you know, there's also a class politics to sinners that like, I mean, the Jack O'Connell character being like, look, we're all fucking under the thumb of like, you know, the hierarchy. And there's a sort of anti-capitalist thing where it's like, you know, He has this kind of currency.

We should honor it because he worked really hard. Like, you know, why do we have to subscribe to this one system that's been imposed upon us, you know? And to get that also in a big studio blockbuster is like, wait, is this kind of like a socialist? Right? Like, yeah. It is, I mean, you have these different points of view, right? Like, you have, like, smoke really being like the only thing that counts is power and power comes through money. And it's fully being like, this may not be a fair or at all workable system.

like in the way, in the position I've been put in it and the way it works for me as a black man in 1932. Yeah. But, uh, but it is still the only route towards power. I've been around the world. I've seen everything else. And like, that is the only way. And I, like, the movie has a lot of ambivalence towards that, but it's also, he's not wrong.

Like, you know, I, I mean, I think one of the things that is so interesting to me about this movie, but also that I feel still like, like I'm still working it out are the ways in which the vampires. offer this image, right, of like collectivism. Oh, yeah. They end up like, they end up in this like multiracial dance circle. Exactly. And they're like, can you like, kindness and love?

Like that is literally like fellowship, right? We're offering you fellowship. But also they're like, we're going to kill you. We're going to come and kill you first. It almost feels like, it feels vaguely similar to the stakes of pleuribis. Yeah, yeah. We're the bad guys, but we've made utopia. But it's all good.

Right. Yeah. You have to lose yourself in order to sort of. You know, become this new thing. Or I guess Jack O'Connell would say it's an ascension, but maybe we wouldn't see it that way. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, he is arguing that there is no perfect, seamless way into this other thing, you know? There's going to be pain involved.

Yeah. Well, and, you know, just talking through these ideas present in the film, it felt so much easier to pinpoint exactly what those beats were and those points were. I remember leaving one battle after another and saying, did I forget what they were like? blowing this stuff up over? Do I remember what it was? Because like at the first was it about, is it climate? Is it immigration?

That film felt political in a very ambiguous way. Sinners felt political in an incredibly direct and pointed way. He wants you to know what he's talking about. And I didn't feel that kind of certainty with some of the stuff happening in one battle. I don't know.

Yeah, which again might be kind of the point. It's sort of this pinching, sort of abstraction. It's not supposed to be, It's not supposed to represent one activist group. But, yeah, that was one of the big criticism of one battle when that movie started getting backlash was like, from an activist perspective. Like, what are we activating? Yeah, this is all over the place. Like, what are they trying to pinpoint?

I think that sinners, it sort of obscures its metaphor in a good way, in part by not making the white supremacists who do figure into the movie significantly. They're not the vampires. Whereas, like, the sort of very obvious metaphor would be to make them the vampires. Yeah. Yeah. They're the record labels. Yeah, but it also like, I mean, I think there is like, right, that like obvious kind of like the, yes, like the record labels, the industry, the idea of kind of like corporate assimilation. And the first time I watched the movie.

Sure, exactly. I mean, the first time I watched the movie, I was very much like, oh, this is, yes, like kind of so much about corporate assimilation and also like corporate diversity, you know, like corporate diversity speak. But then rewatching it. I was like. I feel like it's meant to be much more slippery than that. Like, for the point where I was almost, especially, and we can wait until after spoiler warnings to talk about the Coda, like to the point where I was like, oh, I feel like even he feels a little,

like not quite settled on where he stands with the vampires. Because, you know, like he has cited, I think it's called the Last Rights of Jeff Myrtlebank, which is like a Twilight Zone episode as like one of his major influences. And it's this, it's like an episode that is about a guy, it's in the 1920s, a guy who dies and then comes back to life. And he doesn't seem to have a pulse, but he seems otherwise really normal. And the town folk are like unsure about whether they should like, he's like, yeah, like a vampire or someone. The undead come back and they're going to kind of like, they're all gathering around and deal with this evil. And he gives his speech about how, you know, they shouldn't be afraid of him and he should be allowed to remarry, like, marry his, like, his, like, fiance.

But there's also this sense that, like, he is different. like he seems to have supernatural powers. So it's like slippery. You're not sure where to stand for this character. And I do feel like you are kept shifting constantly with regard to the vampires throughout the movie. You know, like in the beginning, they're really frightening. And then you're kind of like, okay, but what are they offering?

Everyone who gets turned is like, this is great. Aside of the fact that I was just horribly, you know. Yeah, horribly murdered. But then you're like, have they lost themselves? Are they really soulless? And then for a second, the most likable, enjoyable, viscerally engaging character on the screen,

the Salvi-Sinfield, yeah. Like, oh, give me, give me. Give me a spin-off for her. Yeah, I know. She's like all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the Haley Steinfeld,

if we want to segue into a different part of the film or is, like, or a big blockbuster studio movie, it's incredibly forward, blunt sexuality. I think is, like, really interesting. and cool and I was thinking that like that's a there's a pointed statement in that too I think that like

cooler looking at like a history of like black representation in studio films that maybe win awards or don't or whatever and like being really desexualized or or it's there's a violent aspect to that or whatever and he's like no people of all decades all

centuries spoke up front about this and enjoyed sex and wanted it and women wanted it and men wanted you know and I think that like that all of that is so, I mean, it's close to the center of the movie. Yeah. You know, that's impressive. Yeah.

Watching the back, I kept saying to myself, oh, this is a guy who wrote this movie with a woman. Yeah. I felt like this movie, especially when compared to one battle after another, respected the women on screen more and gave them more to do on the screen. You know, my biggest grab about one battle is you get Tiana Taylor giving you these wonderful men at the top, then you do not see her again. Whereas every time I see a black woman enter the situation in centers, and even a not quite black woman, like Haley Stuyfield's character, they're fully formed and they keep showing up. And I even think about the sex scenes in that movie.

They seem to have a gender parity in the way that the bodies are moving together and who was in control or not in control. And it felt like particularly in the way it treats and observes and allows black women on a screen to, be fully embodied, it felt like it hit the mark on that more often than one battle did. I know that I'm having this conversation in the room in which there are no black women, but I'm saying, you know, for me and in my conversations with folks, I felt that. Yeah.

I mean, I feel like it does make me think of the secret agent in that way, where it is very much about how this kind of, there is like joy and sexuality, like even within a situation. that is like fundamentally oppressive. Yeah. Like there. It is like constantly like that does not go away. That is always there. And like it should not be erased in like also depicting the seriousness. Totally.

Well, and the sex in sinners felt it felt like it was delivered with a certain kindness. And I felt like not to keep comparing it to one battle, but there were some of the sex scenes in one battle that were just meant to be sensational. And they worked. Yeah. Like it's sensational. And yeah, there were moments when the sex is happening in sinners or I'm like, oh, this feels kind. I don't know. And I think a lot, again, a lesser movie, I apparently like to do this to set up straw man movies that don't exist.

But I think that Women Masaki's character would be so much more, like, rigidly and faintly drawn and that she would kind of be like, no, you left. And he would have to like work to get her back and now, you know, by the end of the movie or whatever. And in this, it's like there is this complicated understanding between them where they have issues. She's angry at him. He's hurt. They're both hurt. But they still have this intense, like loving bond that, you know, is shown that way. Yeah.

I was going to say two things. I do appreciate a movie that states what has always been obvious, which is like when we Musaku is like such a babe, you know? And you're like, this is a movie that's finally like, yeah, like obviously she's such a babe. But also that I was thinking like, actually this crop of best. picture nominees has like it has a fair amount of sex you know for like for yeah yeah we keep thinking about Hollywood and hand like yeah yeah like like this year is actually like pretty good by that regard and like K-pop demon hunters right uh because i call it f you right like uh sinners is definitely the most overtly sex positive yeah just in like not

just the depictions of sex but also cultivating totally the idea of like it as something people do together. I mean, you know, like having a whole monologue on how to give oral sex women and having that be like, this is the thing you do and like, you do it together. And this is like, great, you know, like, yeah. That said, the first cuddlingest joke, okay, girl, like the third or fourth, wrap it up.

It starts to feel a little bit fetish. That was the one, that was the one point where it was like, you didn't need to do all this, man. I was almost wondering if he was like, you know, the Raptors in Jurassic Park, like testing the fences to see how many he could get away. with. I think that one of the things I

appreciate about Ryan Coogler, even at times where it doesn't work for me, is that he's willing to go do a big swing. He's willing to put himself out there. He's willing to do something that might come across as corny. And I feel like, you know, like the big showcase scene in this where... Musical montage.

It could have been corny and cheesy. And I think like... And I feel like the fact that it rides that edge, but is so earnest about what it wants to depict, which is like everyone's, like, ancestors in the room and like future, like, language in the room. And it's so like, this is, this is, we, like, I mean, he has talked about this in interviews of being like, I wanted to do this. It was not something I initially had in the script.

I wanted to use the language of film to depict this thing. And you're like, yes, it is like. Oh, yeah. Well, because there's one moment in there where I'm like, oh, you really got away with that. Because, like, in the montage, it's like they're, it's a dancer in the jazz. It's all these black performers. But then they bring in, I want to say, a Chinese performer. Like in Chinese opera makeup.

And you hear the gong and the symbols. And you're like, girl. But okay. You're like, let him get away with that. Because it's so technically brilliant. Like, this is a thing about it. Whenever Ryan Cougler movies are about to go into like after school specials like territory,

which he likes to be there. Yeah. Whenever he's about to go there and it's about to be corny or about to be cheesy, you just look at it and hear it and it's so technically and beautifully well done, you'll allow it. If that montage, that sequence was not so like warmly lit and the kids. cameras moving in such seductive, interesting ways.

And, like, because, you know, on paper, if I were to say, oh, Ryan Cougler, this great director made a movie that's set in the 1930s, but there is one scene where there's a break dancer in a bucket hat, you'd be like, followed by, you'd be like, that sounds horrible. Yeah. But somehow it's beautiful. And I like, like, when the guy with the purple kind of jumpsuit with the guitar, I kind of got teary. Right.

Because like you said, it's such a bold swing that connects. Like it actually works where, you know, 99 other times it wouldn't. Yeah. Well, and watching it back the second time. I noticed two things. The sky is beautiful and vivid throughout. And two, you're never not hearing music. Yeah.

This thing is scourged to a T. Yeah. And it helps set you up for the ride to the big musical montage. The music is constantly getting you ready for more music. I think had this not been handled by someone who's so good at, like, scoring film, it wouldn't have worked. But you're primed for that musical moment because you're actually always hearing music in that film in a really nice way. Yeah. Yeah, the sky thing, I mean, like, I noticed a lot of the second viewing.

In particular, I mean, there's a shot when, like, Sammy gets in the back of the car with the twins. And, like, you see it. And it's shot in this way that I felt like is meant to evoke not just an old photograph, but almost like a colorized photograph. Yeah. Like, you see the cotton fields in the back behind him. Yes. And it's focused on his face as they're driving. And I felt like that that spoke to what Kuehler was trying to do so well of be like, this is the past.

And he was, like, obviously went through a lot of pains to recreate. the detail, but also it is a bit mythic, right? Like, it is this place that feels like rich and alive with magic. And that, I think, stands in stark contrast to what often happens in black period pieces in this, set in this time period. They're usually just suffering. Slaver is bad. Jim Crow is bad. They're getting beaten. They're getting killed. Everything about this movie respects and appreciates the magic of black life in the South, in that time period, regardless of the oppression that was. also there. This is a guy who loves black people, loves the South, and thinks that those two things

were also lovable in that time period, you know? And I think that felt that made me all warm and fuzzy. Like, this is a guy who is not coming to us and saying what we usually get, which is if we have a period piece in this period of time with black people, it's like suffering first. he doesn't do that. I mean, the vampires make them suffer, but that's a different kind of thing. Yeah. They don't suffer until, you know,

near the end of the movie. Yeah. And you kind of almost wonder if that there's something that he's saying in that where he's like, you know, the more that kind of other culture kind of like imposes upon us,

like our narratives do kind of tend toward violence because that's been asked of us. But because black movies, a lot of black movies are actually white movies. Well, right. Right. Like a lot of black movies are actually about the pain and put it on them by,

white people. This is not quite that. Yeah. And I think a great example of that is like the minister father who, you know, again, in this lesser movie would be the sort of tyrant and his son is fleeing to go, like, practice his art and all that. But the father is depicted as like understanding he lets his son go. He's like, okay, well, but you know, come back for church, you know. And then, you know, his cousins ask him like, does he hit you? And he's like, no. I mean, you know, nothing more than the standard, you know. And I think that like, again, And that's a nuance there that it's like, yes, there is a graciousness and a love that is passing in this community that you don't often see. But this movie also, like, directly links the vampires and the church.

Like, that first open to see it is very much like, like, when you get that, like, you know, before it flashes back, like, he goes to see his father of the church. And it intercuts, like, the images of the vampires attacking. Like, like, the major kind of, like, songs at pieces in this, you know, there are, like, a few. and like there are the ones at the juke and then there are the ones of the vampires and then there's like this little light of mind at the church, you know? And I feel like it is not a movie

that is sparing with the church. Like it is very critical of the church. Yes. Well, and that is a conversation as someone who grew up the son of a Pentecostal church organist and played in a church band my whole life, the conversation about the sacred and the secular

and how black music plays into it, that is a conversation that black people, are having amongst themselves that is really tempered by white voices and white opinions and so to see cougler spend so much time on that as an idea in the film it almost like helps it pass this like racial bechal test like can we have black people talking about a thing with emotional stakes that isn't purely tied to suffering at the hands of white people yeah and you rarely get that in period pieces with black people and he does it and i think it's because of the musical aspect of it and i find

And that, as I was saying earlier, much more interesting than, like, the vampires killing them or not killing them. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about that tension between sacred and secular music? I mean, is it indeed a tension or is it just more of a question of, like, music history, like, what informed what? And what is that relationship like, as you see it? It is a central dichotomy of black American music. So I interviewed the guy who wrote the song that leads to the big music of Montez-Roubant, as Rob. Fia Sadiq.

He has written hits and produced hits for the likes of DeAngelo, Beyonce, Salange, and more for decades. He grew up playing in church. And a lot of the way that he plays now and makes music now is informed by the church. But he, like me, when you were growing up in a black church playing black gospel music, you weren't technically allowed to even listen to the other stuff. Right. You shouldn't listen to it. You should not play it.

I still, if I drive by a church and I'm playing secular music, I turn the volume down. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's just like in us. But then when you think about every American musical art form that we enjoy in the Western world, it has a direct tie to black church music, right? Like, country doesn't exist without the banjo. The banjo was brought to America from Africa. And the first people making music with the banjo were making songs about God. right um everything like rock and roll came from the blues blues came from people who were playing

the same music in a church setting so like for me the story of like american popular music is actually the story of black sacred music and how it has just infused everything else um i don't know where i was going with this and i forgot the question yet there is still kind of that opposition like even even in today even today yeah like even today there are still I remember when I was a kid. The big tension was like trying to create artists who could cross over.

And so white Christian music did this first, but black gospel artists have done it as well. There'll be some Christian artists that like Mary, Mary, like they're a big hit.

They don't say Jesus, right? Right. Switch foot, who I love. They're like this Christian group, their biggest hit, dare you to move, they don't say God or Jesus. And I remember in church,

they would tell us how this was bad because these evil record labels would make these Christians sign away their right to say God. Right. These are the stories I was hearing in the 90s, right? So it's still there. It's very interesting to watch how this conversation becomes different in what I feel has been the last year or two

in the rise of like Hillsong culture, which is like a white Christian rock culture. It is a similar but different conversation that is another episode of some other show. We have to talk a lot about emo, unfortunately. Yeah, for that conversation. Yeah. Also, I love that we got in a switchfoot reference

in this center's discussion. Yep, yep, yep. That's our version of the bucket had break to answer in center. Should we move into spoiler territory? All right. Okay, so let's talk about, I don't like, where would we say

when the grace maybe screams come on in? That's like the, the spoilers. I don't think this movie is spoilerable. I think that for many movies, but people do not agree with me. Very upset. I was once.

I think I might. have said this on the podcast before I don't remember. But I, when Joel Cohen made that Macbeth movie, I reviewed it from the New York Film Festival. And I'm not making this up. Someone on Twitter said I spoiled Macbeth. I was like, please be trolling me. And I don't think they were. Also, this film has been out for a year. Yeah. It surely has. Right? Yeah. And it's widely available. And yes. But yes. We are now in spoilers. All right. Yeah. I feel like, I don't know. I do feel like the action part is the least compelling for me. Because, yes. I'm also just like

maybe because I don't know what resolution would feel like it had been worthy of that incredible setup. And the post-credit scene undoes any resolution you thought you felt. Yeah. So how do we feel, I guess? How do you leave

this movie thinking about the vampire experience, let's say? I was thinking oh, they're going to do a sequel. Sure. That was my first thought. And honestly, like early 90s with that fashion, I know. I Would you sweat it? I would watch it. The hoops.

The hoops are incredible. I know. It's such a good visual. Sinners 2, 90s boogaloo? It's such a good visual. Like a New Jack swinging soundtrack. Incredible. Oh.

Have Eddie Murphy be a vampire. Yeah. He's done before. Yeah. Wait, have we written a sequel? Right. Call us. We'll take a story credit.

That's right. But I feel like it is. it feels like it is unclear throughout like how much you lose your sense of self like the mythology which we're never sure

like how much is true because like these are people who are figuring out how vampires work as they go they know some they have some ideas about it but like

they have not gotten to watch as many vampire movies as it's 1932 as we have to come up with lore that you know we learn a bit

about the idea that their souls are stuck in them that they can't kind of like go on but also they share consciousness, maybe? Unlike a haint, they won't die if their creator dies.

They can, you have to kill each individual. But they share his pain. Remick. And then also, like, Remick is able to speak a dialect of Chinese, like, after he, you know, like, bites. Well, no, he says he studied abroad. And he's like, I did that semester.

I think, like, put English. But he was only friends with other Americans. Uh-huh. Well, and it's like, like, some of the, like, normal beat, not normal, the vampires. Some of the beats that you always expect with this, like, they can't come in a door unless they're invited in. Like, that tracks.

I get that. And the garlic. Right. And garlic I get. Steak in the heart, I get. But there were other things where I'm like, what is the vampire rule that you've established here? Is there a rule or not?

Like, I kept wondering how much free will the vampires had. Yeah. Were they slaves to the vampiric mission of just getting everyone you could or can or do they have choice? Because in that final post-credit scene, we find out that one of the vampires, made a choice to not do a bad thing. Mm-hmm. You know?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And held that promise for decades. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then they all kind of, they sit and listen to him play, you know,

and then they kind of have this fond goodbye. And is that like, oh, I want to suck your black. Right. And so it does kind of, it, it does suggest that there is like a lot more complication to this thing that is not meant to be an exact allegory anyway, right? Like, it's meant to be a very kind of like malleable allegory. But it did. feel like that I continue to wrestle with that Cota because I think there's a lovely image and it's

also a funny image when they just walk in. But I do feel like it leaves me feeling unsettled about like kind of like what is being like preferred in terms of this this metaphor. It makes me question how much of these norms for the vampires were rules or not, you know? Why do you think that it's in the post credits area? Like is that is that just runoff from MCU experience or or is that? I like that. But it's just, it's a really interesting formal choice, like not to just stick it at the end of the movie. Well, every Oscar nominee was required to do it this year. So there's a hamnet one. Right.

No, that's a good question. I think it might be. What would the Hamnet one be? He's alive. Hamnet will return. It's actually, it's the musical number. The Hamlet shows up in a Gucci sweater. Yeah.

At a guitar. They're like, I've been on dead this whole time. Yeah. Chilling. It's really sad, actually. The same of Max Retribugue is. music is playing. But I don't know. My hunch about it is that he wants to give you a sense of time passing. And so you get the end credits and the music. And then, and so you're kind of like, okay, we're, we're the story's over. But something. I think it kind of, it, it almost feels like it's transporting you across six decades and then plopping you back down in. But because the credits do run six decades long. Well, right. These movies these days. And they get the very last like end scene, too, of Miles Caden and like playing this. the light of mine, right?

Yeah. So, like, there is an actual end credits. Yeah. There is, like, the thing that plays through the credits and then the end credits. Yeah, I don't know. I do feel like it gives, I mean, it feels like that marks it as a CODA so strongly, to the point where it almost feels like the film, right, the actual part of the main part of the film is over. And this is something that feels not like you could take or leave it, but like it feels

almost like it is deliberately being held. Yeah. I will say watching it in the theater and seeing it come up post credits, I think it made me be a little more locked in than I would have been had it just been at the end of the film because this film is over two hours. Yeah. And as much as I enjoyed it, by the end, I was like,

thank you. And something about staying for the credits and having it pop back up, I got to like reset and like refocus. I think I took it in and ingested it more because of where it was. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah.

And I mean, my sort of question about the sort of plotting of it is like, I get this, I mean, I love the lines about like it was the best day of my life until things happened. It's really, it's moving and, you know, and they both kind of share that. And so I get why the affection would be there in terms of like, God, I haven't seen your fit. And you still look like you did like all those years ago. And like, like, I'm, I think that he's kind of glad that they're still alive, you know, because he did love them in one form or know them at least in one form. Yeah.

And, but I also, I'm kind of like, right, but you did fucking kill all these people. Like, you did terrible things. Yeah. And also, your brother has this kind of like beautiful, but like kind of, like, like, kind of reconnection with his family in the afterlife, which presumably is not available to, to all of these people who have been turned into the undead against their will. Yeah. So, yeah, I feel not that I need vampire lore to be extremely coherent, but I, do feel like it there are parts of like I feel like the emotional terrain of the movie and the metaphorical train of the movie that I feel unclear on because of the coupé mostly well and this is

where I think it's like Ryan Coogler is a visionary of a filmmaker but he also understands what makes a box office smash and a hit movie and he knows that like sometimes the least important thing is logic does this movie feel good that's true you know and you don't want to turn into like cinema sins and be like well actually yeah that that that that that sweater was not manufactured until 1993 you know but yeah i also think that there could be something about like if the vampirism in the movie is presented as a different way to exist in america either kind of underground or outside of the norm and miles katin kind of doesn't i mean it's sort of chosen for him that he's going to go a

slightly more mainstream route it's these two differing ways of being alive at America intersecting 60 years later. But is the question, is it the other way around? Or maybe it is. I mean, in terms of becoming a vampire is a form of assimilation, right? And they do come in wearing like the latest fashion. They have adapted at times. They are.

Or he's more the purest. He's kept the scars are still in his face and he's playing the old music. And he is like carved out this path for himself that, you know, presumably like has sustained him doing this kind of music. But is not about kind of chasing whatever. also like kind of like capitalist forces, right? He has gone electric. He has gone electric, right? This is true.

And his recording quality gets better one of times. A thing that everyone thinks people care about, but people don't care about. About going electric? Yes. Every time it was a film where like the big plot, like a plot one is like, he went electric. Okay, girl. Who cares about it, though? The vampire.

The vampires. I will say it's very interesting to think about what Ryan Cougler is saying in that final post-credit scene. Because in that bar scene, the coolest, sexiest, best-dressed ones there are the vampires. The cool, hot black guy is a vampire. Yeah. And being a vampire has allowed him to be cool.

So I'm like, oh, is there, do I need Angelica to write about that? Like, what's going on there? Yeah. You know, it's, what is that scene saying about what it means to be black, what it means to stay black and cool, what it means to survive as a black person. And presumably there's a financial element to that. You know, how did they make their money? They're clearly doing well or, you know, where they seem to be.

He has the great ring. Yeah. And, yeah, and there's, so that kind of economic thing comes back up subtly. Well, and it's like Ryan Cookela does this really great thing of by the end of more than one of his movies, you like the villain and you're like, oh, you're right. Yeah, I know. Like, you watch Black Panther? You're like, oh, killmonger gets it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Those are my politics. Yeah. Do you feel like there isn't, I mean, aside from, I think like the Cota does serve to kind of mitigate this a bit, but do you feel like this film is ultimately kind of pessimistic, guided by a feeling of pessimism with regard to the ability to exist being black in America? No. The best way to understand, at least for me, the North Star of what he's doing in this movie, is the way in which, every black person looks on that screen. They look humane.

They look fully realized. Their skin is glowing. They're always well lit. The costumes are impeccable, regardless of their class status in this movie. And it is a movie that appreciates blackness, whether it is in the form of a human or a vampire. And I think the overriding message of this movie

or the one that I hope lingers, is to say it's possible to make art that loves black people that can be loved by everybody. So for me, it's less of what do we think about vampires or what do we think about good and evil? It's like, what does it feel like to watch art in which black people are respected? How does it feel? And does it work? is it a viable model for this industry

that has been plagued by whiteness since it start? That is what this movie is really saying to me. And that is what I came away with it even more after watching it again. It's about Ryan Cookeler fucking loves black people. And he makes these movies

that make you love black people too. So that. Yeah, and that he does, he did that with Black Panther, you know? Yes. Do you know when there were like white kids dressing up his fucking Black Panther? And it's...

That's what it's about. It shouldn't be. I wish it wasn't, but it's startling to see in some big, like, expensive studio movie where you're like, this is not the lens

through which these are, you know, this is normally done. Yeah. And that he's managed to do it not once, but like several times, still at the same level of,

you know, I mean, he didn't, they didn't spend as much on sinners as they did Black Panther, but like, it was still a lot of money and was spent and earned.

Yeah. And I just, you know, I hope for the future of the industry and for his future, I just kind of wonder where he's going to go next. Is he going to keep operating?

Or will he want to go back down to Fruitvale Station level just to take a break? I don't know. Well, I mean, I think something, part of the reason I think that this movie has such a kind of, is engaged in such a fraught interrogation with the idea of commercial success is that he is, he seems like someone who wants to work within, like a large scale, right? Like Nolan, kind of. Yeah. And I think that that is.

In Nolan films, it could be argued, are about a certain kind of whiteness. Sure. Sure. That's a different conversation, though. I mean, I feel like mostly Nolan. I see dead wife, white now. Absenteeat father. And not giving Florence to you enough screen time.

Yeah, but yeah, like I think like he seems to want to be in that group of like, you know, less than a handful of like directors who can get what they want to get made, an original thing made. Yes. And I like that he likes making blockbusters. Yeah. For me, you know, it's the American film. industry, even as it's seen fewer people go to movies, it's leaned more into honoring movies that most people will never watch. I don't get it.

God bless Anora. I like that film, but I remember last Oscar season when the Brutalists and Anora were like in contention. It was hard for most of America to find somewhere to watch those films. And what Ryan Cougler has done is that you can make a film that is critically admired. works for all kinds of people, gets folks, gets butts in seats,

and centers something other than whiteness. Mm-hmm. Right? It's, it's, it's, I just find it remarkable.

And I, I like that he is not afraid to make blockbusters that work for all kinds of people. Back in November, he said his next movie would be Black Panther three. Oh, okay.

I do kind of, I mean, kind of on the Nolan comparison. Like, I do wonder. Also, Nolan, I know you had, was it,

Tinnett had John David Washington? Sure. Yeah, whether that was, you know, good to all parties, I don't know. But like, you know, Christopher Nolan was like, all right, I'm going to do three Batman's. I'm going to do these really cool sci-fi movies, whatever. And I'm basically, I'm just warming you guys all up for my three-hour movie about a scientist. And I kind of do wonder if there is in the future a Ryan Cooleur movie where, and look, if he wants to keep working with superheroes and vampires and whatever, like, great. Like, he's wonderful at it.

But, like, is there one where he doesn't, where it doesn't feel like he has to kind of give that one concession to, like, box office appeal? Like, can he, I mean, I think he definitely can. I'd just be curious what it would be, you know? I feel like sinners. Like, is there, like, a music movie where it's just purely that music movie. But I will say, I don't feel like sinners is him making a concession. No, it's not. Like, I don't feel like he added the vampires. He did all that he wanted to do that movie.

But I think the vampires helped get it funded. Oh, sure. No, I'm sure. But I feel like, I don't know, it is hard to not to arrive at it. our parent podcast, but like the idea of getting the blank

check, right? Like that, as much as that exists anymore, it doesn't, like it almost doesn't, right? Like,

maybe. For Ryan, it does. Yeah, yeah. And like for Christopher Nolan maybe being like, yeah. You know what I'm going to do

next? The Odyssey. You know what people love is like the Odyssey. And yeah, there are just a few people who can have that. But that is,

yeah. Didn't he say somewhere that he wants to do a rom-com? Did I see that somewhere? Am I being crazy? Yeah. Oh, I mean,

I would, Yes, which is thrilling. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I would be cast in a Ryan Cougla romcom. I honestly like... Michael B. Jordan and Haley Steinfeld.

Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. In the 90s. Yeah. It's sinners too, actually. Sinners two is a rom-com. Yeah. I mean, I would love that, an immortal, you know, like, when you're like, how do you sustain

a relationship over centuries and centuries and get back together? Over and over again. Yeah, I feel like that's... Finners two, break up. Well, and Michael B. Jordan is, I mean, he's doing Thomas Crown Affair. which, yes, is a kind of heist thriller, but it's also a romance, and, like, that's pretty exciting. No, I want, like, the theoretical Nick, or is it Nick Cave's a gladiator two script

where he was just, like, fighting wars throughout the centuries. I want that with, like, a rom-com, you know, where they're just, like, meat-cuting through the... Oh, in the 50s and 60s, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that'd be good. Yeah. And today. We haven't talked about the twins, the performance of the twins. Oh, yeah.

Of the twins. How did you guys find that? I think it's really well done, you know. I am, I talk about movies, write about movies for a living. I've done that for many years. I've been watching movies since I was four years old. We have wonderments of visual effects. From Parent Trap, the original on, I'm like, how do they do the twin thing?

There's two of them standing next to each other. Now the last work to do Michael B. Jordan to the parent. Yeah. Well, especially every time. You're like, wait. Let's get together. He handed a cigarette to himself. How did it work?

And I think that, like, it is one of those. one of the more the older sort of film tricks that still works beautifully and i and look obviously that is performance dependent and i think he does just enough to like to like shape them differently that they are they're legible as different characters and i don't know i think it's well done yeah well especially like because he clearly is meant to play them as like these two distinct characters but also like people can't exist they're kind of like one force right like they they've cultivated a bit of this mythology around themselves. So like when people in the town are like this makes like.

Well, their names are two halves are halfs for one thing. Yeah, yeah. They are supposed to feel a bit like this combined force as well. And I think, yeah, Michael B. Jordan does a very good job of navigating that. He does. And it surprised me because I think God bless Michael B. Jordan. I've never thought of him as the most dynamic of actors. I think he gave the most alive performance he's done yet in this movie.

and that's a testament to the writing and direction. But yeah, I feel like the twin of it all, the more that I look at it, the more I appreciate what he was doing. There was a clip. One of his co-stars was talking about how he wore different-sized shoes when he was each of those two twins. He wore tighter shoes for one of them

and like looser, bigger shoes for another. And then one version of him had dimples and the other never did. Oh, wow. He held his space differently. Wow. That's cool. Yeah.

Of course, this is one of his co-stars talking him up on their Oscar campaign run. So they said it, but it worked. We're talking about it here. It seems like Kuglu is just having fun. Yeah. Because there's, yeah. The movie doesn't necessarily call for that. No.

Yeah. No. They could literally be cousins and it could be two actors and maybe have the same sort of. Yeah. But no, I think it's an added sort of like, can I pull this off, sort of daring to do? I mean, having to shoot all of those scenes. Yes. twice, you know, like fully, like is, you know, and then however many takes it took, you know.

I think also their different fates really kind of speaks to, I think, the kind of conflicted natures of the allegory, right? Where you have one who kind of goes out, like, like, slaughtering the clan, you know, and then reuniting, you know, with his beloved and their lost child. And, like, it's this, like, yeah, like, the gladiator goes out like the gladiator. And then the other one, yeah, like goes on to, he becomes a vampire and he lives as light. And I feel like, yes, that kind of conflicted nature around the idea of vampirism and all of the many things it represents in the movie is channeled because he goes both ways. Yeah. I like to think that he's a vampire with a sort of Dexter code. He finds the bad, like bad guys.

And they drink, they hit that guy's blood and he's not murdering innocence. But maybe I'm, maybe I'm being naive. Also, when are we going to, you know, there's all this conversation and debate. around whether or not movie stars exist anymore. And at this point, I'm like, Michael B. Jordan is right there. Yeah, yeah. I think he's a really bankable movie star. And maybe he doesn't get that credit

because he's been so tethered to Ryan Coogler. I think also to your point about him as an actor, I feel like Coogler brings out the best in him, like, so much. Like, he has not always sparked to life in that same way with other filmmakers. And I feel like when he is in a Coogler movie, you're like, oh, yeah. He's like electric. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Maybe something about making this kind of prod at him enough that he's now kind of woken up to, and that'll be that. Yeah. I mean, so sinners came out in the spring. So if Chalomey is the king of Christmas, is he king of Easter or both? Jesus Christ is the king of Easter. King of Memorial Day. King of Memorial Day. Well, I think Jesus Christ is the king of king. Right. That's right. That's right. The bunny is the king of Easter. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I would be really curious to hear or to see rather where, where, we're

Senors goes in a couple weeks at the Oscars. Again, I think it'll do well. But another nominated movie, which only has one nomination, but a big one that Sam, I think you're a fan of, is Song Song Blue, which Kate Hudson is nominated for Best Actress, which I think is a good nomination. She's wonderful in it. So can you just kind of extol that movie for us? Well, one, I'm going to personally say that I willed Kate Hudson's Oscar not into existence. Well done. I have been mentioning this. Kurt and Goldie, thank you. Yes. I've been mentioning this performance on my show forever. I had a newsletter a few weeks ago where the subject line was my New Year's resolution is like for Kate doesn't to get an Oscar.

Like I think this performance in this film made me, it stopped me in my tracks. By no means do I think that Songton Blue is a perfect film. But I think in terms of Oscar worthy performances, Oscar worthy performances, Kate did that. My introduction to this movie was not knowing what the fuck it was. I saw billboards for it all around LA. And so you see Hugh Jackman in that get up with the wig and you see Kate Hudson look. looking how she looks. That's a wig.

And my first thought was like, oh, a lovely Christopher guest style film. Well, maybe I'll check it out. Yeah. Yeah. And then I watched the trailer and I'm like, they can't be for real. What do you mean?

And then like you see a car accident in the trailer. I'm just like, this is a lifetime movie. It's not for me. Then my partner, who was a costume designer, he gets a bunch of screeners for all the stuff. And he begins to watch it himself. He stops the film halfway.

And he says, Sam, I can't finish this movie until I watch it with you. Wow. You have to watch this movie. It's your kind of movie. Lo and behold, I watch it. You were lightning to his thunder. Oh, my job. At every moment when you're supposed to laugh, I laugh, when you're supposed to cry, you cry, when you're supposed to put your fist in the air and pump it in the air, you do that. A dear friend of Manu loves movies, he said, Tongongue feels like a movie is supposed to feel, right? And this is one of the few movies that I then made my friends watch. So I ended up like at a cabin in the woods for New Year's.

New Year's Eve night, guess what we did? There you go. Song song. Did you time it so that it was like a dramatic ending? A few hours before. But lo and behold, I look over and at the beats they're supposed to laugh, cry and punch the air. They do. Like this movie hits its beats.

That said, I think that like Kate Hudson, her performance is good anyway. She sings very well. She gets the accent perfect. She is very, there's no condescension in the way that she portrays. middle class working classness. But I also love that her in this movie has made everyone rewrite their script

of what they think Kate Hudson is. A lot of the headlines around her being so good in this film had an air of surprise. She can do that? She did this. And it's like, yeah, I got to interview her. We published an interview today. And I asked her, I was like, girl,

you see these headlines. They're like, good for you, but also they're surprise. How do you feel? And she said this thing that I was just like, oh, you're so grounded. She said, I know what they're saying. I did all those rom-coms.

I did all those rom-coms for so long, and they don't think that you can do that and do this. And she said, I'll never regret the rom-coms. Because for all the films she's done, she still hears today from women from like 13 to 70 who say, that was helpful to me. I appreciate that. Thank you for that.

So for me, I love her performance. I think that film hits the beats, even though it's not perfect. But I like the way that it fits into Kate Hudders. Hudson's narrative arc as a performer. And the way that it reminds us that, like, a good actor can be a good actor in all kinds of things. And in actuality, some of those rom-coms were great. Sure.

You know? And she's, I mean, I have probably mentioned this a billion times on podcast. I have long held. Have you ever seen something borrowed? Which one is that? That's Jennifer Goodwin and this random guy from soap operas and Kate Hudson, where she plays the bitchy friend and Jennifer Goodwin starts sleeping with Kate Hudson's fiance. say. It's based on a book.

The movie itself is not great. Kate Hudson is so fantastic. That's what I'm saying. I have been saying for years, she should have gotten an Oscar nomination for supporting actors. And people are like, from that rom-com? Yes, because she's incredible. The scene where she finds out what's happening between her friend and her boyfriend is she's incredible.

Yes. So, yes, you're right. And how much of our condescension towards rom-coms is a condescension to things that women and girls like? Well, yeah. Yeah, I'm not a big rom-com. No, I am agnostic on rom-com. But, like, I do feel like she has always been good.

Yeah. I mean, like, I think, like, what she does is Penny Lane and almost famous, like, in that role. I think it's easy for people to dismiss it because she is playing a character who is like this muse to, you know, like, and so people see it in that context. Yeah. But, like, as if there's no agency there and there's no, you know, like the movie is like, right, built to be. But I think she's incredible in it. You understand why everyone falls in love with her. And also you understand that she is putting on this kind of performance.

I had never really seen a debut performance like that. Yeah. When I saw that movie, I was, what, 16, 17 years old? And I was like, gee, who is this, like, ethereal, magical creature? Yeah, no, she's incredible in it. And also, I was one of, I think, like, many, many young women who are, like, I'm going to spend years trying to get a coat, like the one. Did you get one?

I tried on many. My sister dashed herself on this wraps. You know what they did not magically transform me to look like. Yeah. C. Hunting in that movie. So, you know, you got to work with what you got. And I had to make peace with the fact that the coat was not for me. Just a few years later, I tried to dress like Jim and 28 days later. And it did not transform me into Killian Murphy.

Yeah. I will say, and I should be clear here, Song Sun Blue is not the greatest movie of all time. Yeah. It is earnest and heartwarming, and I like it. But, like, for me, it's just like, this is about Kate. Yeah.

And I like her presence in the Oscars this year because, like, I can't exactly define what I mean, but I just kind of feel it. It's kind of an old-fashioned Oscar nomination, you know? Like, the performance is really good,

but it's like, I could see that performance in 1972, in 1986, you know, and, like, in a good way. Like, whereas some of the other stuff that's nominated is a bit more modern. So it just kind of rounds out that five in a really nice way.

I will say also, like, Zuckerman, her fiance, Bob, who grew up in Wisconsin, said that this is one of the few performances he says he's ever seen to nail a Milwaukee accident. Well, you know why? Her nanny growing up. There you go. And the nanny was her assistant for a while when she was an adult.

In the Oprah episode about Song Song Blue, of course, Oprah's like, and your nanny is here! Yeah, of course, yeah. Well, Sam, thank you. I'm glad we got some Song Sun Blue content on this. podcast because we were close to not talking about it. Yeah, we were blanking it. For that and all other things, thank you for being here. We really appreciate it.

And people should go listen to that interview with Kate and all your sinners interviews? Yeah, so we have in my feed a bunch of episodes, but for Oscar folks, I have a chat with Kate Hudson about songs on glue and life. And then I've interviewed both the costume designer Ruth E. Carter from Sinners and Raphael Sadiq, who wrote the song that begins to summon spirits in sinners. So if you need more standards content, they're there. That's the Sam Sanders show. You can find it pretty much anywhere, right? Anywhere.

Anywhere where podcasts and things are served. Podcasts, YouTube's. Yeah. There's chances. They were playing on the subway on my way here. Yeah, no. So, congrats on that. Some of you hear it on a public radio station in your neck of the woods, but I forget which one.

So, anywho, but yeah, check it out. Well, thanks again, Sam. This was delightful. I was, you know, you all are so good at what you do and you have this encyclopedic knowledge of film. I was like, let me not show my ass up here. No, you know your talk to about it. Exactly what you were talking about. Yeah, no, it was so great to have you on.

You brought, like, a much of great thing. Yeah. And that was our ninth of Best Picture nominee that we've talked about. What's the last one? One battle after another. Yeah. Bring in Leah. Oh, yeah.

He's so easy to get. Yeah. Yeah. Can you imagine him having to, like, indulge in a long conversation? I feel like he hates doing press so much. Yeah. That's why he dates 24-year-old models from Czechos lap here where after his. Exactly.

He's like, we have nothing in common. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is he the one? I feel like there are a few. He's, like, famous for the headphones. The headphones during sex, yeah. That is the rumor. Leo? That's the rumor. That was the rumor. He has the, he has the date, get on the bed, get whatever. This is always like the joke, but I choose to believe it. Whale sounds. Oh, I heard it was.

Oh, my God. I don't know. What is the best answer for what he's listening to doing sex? It's this little light of mind. Yeah. Any possibility is a funny one. Yeah, next week is one battle after another. We're also going to combine now. We're also going to combine that with some predictions, and Daddy David Sims is going to be joining us for that, which is excited. I'm really bad at predictions, too, so... That's kind of fun. Because maybe you're so... What if I just go really? You're so wrong. You're right.

I go so wild. That's what can happen. So stay tuned for that. Critical Darling's is a blank check production in association with Vulture. Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Anne Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth, and Jennifer Jean.