Blank Check with Griffin & David - Critical Darlings: The Secret Agent And The Increasingly International Academy

Episode Date: February 19, 2026

Viva Brazil! Today we discuss Best Picture nominee The Secret Agent, the simmering, colorful Brazilian thriller about a man on the run, starring the dreamy Wagner Moura and directed by Kleber Mendon��a Filho. The story, about retaining personal and political memory under authoritarianism, has proven resonant with an international audience and awards bodies, garnering three additional Oscar nominations for Best International Feature, Best Casting, and Best Actor for Moura. On this episode, we discuss The Secret Agent itself, how it fits into and subverts the tropes of international films at the Oscars, the Eurovision-like process for international nominations, check in on the Berlin Film Festival, and do a very special Il Postino corner. Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the award season conversation. One contender at a time. Please welcome to this stage, your hosts, Richard Lawson and Allison Wilmore. Marie, thank you as ever for that wonderful introduction and for being a guest on the show last week. We don't have a guest this week, but we are, of course, joined as always by producer Ben. Hello, hello, Ben. People in Brazil. Yeah, couldn't talk to you. we're mainly today going to be talking about the secret agent,

but also international films, their presence in America, in the box office, and at the Oscars. I'll get into a little Berlin talk from I was just at that film festival. But before we do that, we should acknowledge that this week, the legendary Robert Duval died at the ripe old age of 95. I was asked by Rolling Stone to contribute a little blurb

for my favorite of his movie, performances. And embarrassingly, I've seen him be great in many things, but I was like, I think he's wonderful in deep impact. And they were like, we don't want that. But obviously, that's not one of it. But he's really good in it. Yeah, no, he definitely is. And of course, because we do, we do talk awards here, let us reduce that legendary career to a series of Oscar nominations. It was impressive. And one win. Do you know what the win was for? I feel like it's not maybe the one you would expect. Is it for great Santini? No. Mm-mm. Tender mercies. Tender mercies.

Yeah, 1984. Right, right. But it was nominated for Best Supporting for Godfather, Poglips Now. Yeah. And then Best Actor. Deep Impact. Well, no, he did get a favorite supporting actor, sci-fi from the Blockbuster Entertainment Awards. Ooh.

Wait for what? For Deep Impact? For Great Tincipi. I appreciate it. No, I was just like, I think they do, they divide them all up by genres. You're like, screw you, a comedy musical. sci-fi category. But yeah, Best Actor nominated for Great Tantini for The Apostle One for That was big in the 90s. Yeah. And then Best Supporting for a Civil Action and the judge, that movie we all love and talk about all the time. And let me tell you, that judge nomination, he debases himself in that movie in one particularly graphic way. Okay. I do not remember this interview.

He was like, oh, good God, we got to make sure this wasn't off or not. Like, we got to get. We got to get. We got to get. We got to. Make sure this wasn't off or not. Like, we got to get. We got to. Give him the nom here. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely a movie that I saw that is not live in my brain in any way. In IMAX, because for whatever reason, it just played at the IMAX theater in Toronto. Yeah. But no, he obviously, an incredible actor. And I think that when I was younger, he just sort of existed in my, like, movie consciousness because of, you know, various movies that my parents liked.

And then the older I got and I revisited some of those things or even watched him in new stuff. stuff. I mean, he was acting like well, like late into his life. He was just such a natural in a way that I think was maybe taken for granted because he was so natural. Like it didn't really seem, even though he could be kind of big and blustery, it always just felt like, well, that's just that, I know that man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, one of those people that you take for granted because they have just been, you know, part of the foundations of movie going for so long. But yeah, Richard, this morning. You were in Berlin. Yeah, yeah, good and good Morgan. You have a long day, such as your dedication to the art of podcasting. As you can hear, I kind of lost my voice. I actually spent about five days wandering around Berlin with a cold, so I felt very Tom Hanks and Bridge of Spies. And, you know, Berlin is a very modern city now and all that, but it still has a lot of vestiges of that sort of Cold War era.

Like a lot of the subway cars are like these boxy yellow things and, that the streets aren't very brightly lit. Like, it felt very, like, atmospheric in that sort of spy movie way, which I enjoyed. But I wasn't there for that. I was there for that. You weren't there to go try and get into Bear Hind.

Is that how you say it? I've actually never. Yes, okay. Did you try? No, God, no. I would just need to know. I know. You have to wait in for a really long time, though.

What if you just, you're like, you get the wave in and you're like, that's all I needed. And you leave. Thanks, bye. And you're banned for life. Yeah, that would be it. No, I didn't try for that.

Maybe another time. But it's an interesting trip, this Berlin Fun Festival, because it's like, it's in the winter, but it's not Sundance. You're in a big city, which a lot of the festivals, like, Cannes is a big town, but there's a little, like, area where that festival happens. Ditto, Park City, Ditto, Tellerite, obviously, Toronto. Venice even has its own sort of localized thing. There aren't screenings all over Venice. But in Berlin, there are, they're all over the city. There is a festival hub where, like, the kind of main, you know, all the big premieres for the,

the competition films happened there, all that. But otherwise, I was kind of just, like, riding the subway, seeing movies in different neighborhoods, which was kind of cool if it felt like a little bit. What's the thing they say about NYU kids? Like, the city is your campus, you know? And people are like, I want a quad. I want a real campus. And I kind of felt a little bit of that here where I was like, I wish I kind of felt like I was with other festival people. Yeah.

How German does it feel? Like, do Germans give like 10-minute long standing ovations? seems somehow less German to me. Not in my experience. I mean, I didn't go to any of the premieres, but, like, apparently there was one movie called Rosebush pruning that is, like, a Brazilian,

something else co-production. It's in English. And it was one of the big star-studded movies. So, like, Callum Turner, Tracy Letts, L. Fanning, Riley Keio, Jamie Bell were in it. And apparently it's quite bad.

It's, like, an attempt at, like, oh, like, it's, it's, um, Lantamos' former or frequent collaborator as a screenwriter Yeah, he wrote

the co-wrote the screenplays for dog tooth, alps, lobster, Killing of Sacred Deer, kinds of kindness. Yeah, so it's that sort of sensibility, but then mixed with

this Brazilian director who made like Motel Destino and a couple other things. And apparently went over so badly that there were some whistles

at the, of derision at the end of the press screening, but no booze. So I think it's a much more like reserved. Had that movie

been at Cann from the sound of it, I didn't see it. I think people would have been really, you know, vocal about it. Of the big

three euro festivals, that can Venice, it definitely feels the least like clamor, pomp, and circumstance, all that. That's where the golden bear... The golden bear. The golden bear. Yeah. And Venice has the golden lion. And can't has... Well, the palm for the... Yeah. Golden.

gold is really the name of the game. And then the acting prize at Berlin is the silver bear, which used to be divided by gender, but I think about six years ago, they combined it into one lead, one supporting, which Andrew Scott won last year for Blue Moon, which I think is kind of the first Oscar-y movie that Berlin has had in a while. In a while. Like 45 years, the Andrew Hague film,

that was a while ago, that led to a Charlotte Rambling nomination and some other buzz. But other than that, Berlin does not seem to function as like an awards clearinghouse. In the context of awards, at least, this is not the place that you would look to. And even like, and we're going to talk more this episode about like international films in now how they play in America, especially at the awards. And I think even from that context, like, I don't know that a premiere in Berlin is giving a movie that, you know, a state-side distributor would want to have a high profile. I don't know if it's giving it that. But there were American celebrities there. Wasn't there something with Calm Turner and Tracy? Yeah, that's the bad one. That people hissed out. And there was some sort

of viral thing. Oh, yeah. So someone at so the press, so one at one, yeah, a hallmark of these three big European film festivals and others, I'm sure, are these press conferences. And so you get all these journalists from all over and then the panel of the director and the stars. And it's usually the morning of the premiere. So all of the cast from Rose Bush Pruning was doing that, I believe on Friday morning. And some journalists asked Callum Turner, like, kind of assuming, like, so you're going to be James Bond. And Calm Turner was like, oh, I'm not going to answer that. And then Tracy Letts said, oh, actually, I'm going to be James Bond.

But that was kind of a nice moment of levity because the press conferences this year at Berlin had mostly been marred by this very strange political discourse where the jury president, the director of Vinders, who's been around forever, is a kind of, he won a Palm Door years ago, like he, for, what, Wings of Desire,

you know, a pretty respected director. And he basically said, like, we're not going to get into politics. Like, movies aren't political. And everyone was like, oh, yeah, aye, y'alli, and then it kept coming up. To the extent that the director of the festival issued their own press release saying, like, please refrain from like, or something like to the effect of like, let's not drag politics into this where it doesn't need to be. And it was like so, yeah. Well, also like Arndati Roy, right, the novelist.

She was supposed to be at the festival. It was like a film she wrote in 1989. They had a restored version. And she like withdrew because she was so, like, irate at that sentiment. Vinders expressed. So I did really enjoy that someone, I guess, asked Rupert Grint a question about this at a press conference and led to the immortal quote. They asked him about fascism. And he was like, obviously I'm against it. So I was at dinner. Oh, that's one good thing. Amazing food in Berlin. I was at dinner with some colleagues and we were talking about that. And do you guys remember that when Rupert Gryn, like, when the kids were like old enough, the Harry Potter kids old enough to like maybe have acts? access to the money they'd been earning. Some a journalist was like, what's the, have you splurge done anything? And Rupert Grent was like, I bought an ice cream truck. And so I was imagining Rupert Grent driving his ice cream truck around one day. And all of a sudden, it's just like a light bubble over his head.

He was like, I oppose fascist as the song's going, you know. But no, I'm glad he, that was a bold steel. Yeah, I know. I'm never going to look up what the actual question was that he was asked because I just prefer that. It was house the ice cream drink doing. Right. Yeah. Someone was just like,

fascism. Right. It was like, obviously, I'm against it. Yeah. And then everyone just moved on again. I mean, it's, it looked.

I mean, obviously, like, I don't, I'm not a German historian, not a European historian. Like, obviously Berlin is the locus of a lot of anxiety and, and, you know,

historical sort of reckoning over things that happened, you know, almost a century ago. And, like, the Berlin, the Berlin, Nali Palist, where like all of this stuff is happening, is maybe not even a 10-minute walk from

the Holocaust Memorial and all that. So, like, sensitivities are high, and I understand why. But it was just kind of interesting where, like, whereas it can, you kind of expect these crazy, like, political things to happen and, like, Lars Runtrier to, like, make Kirsten Dunst look miserable while he talks about Nazis and stuff. Yeah, or like at the awards last year. I mean, a lot of people brought up Gaza, you know? Yeah. So it is interesting. Well, and we'll talk about, you know, Philhost films, like when I saw Aquarius at Cannes years ago, there was a huge, like, anti-Belsenaro protest on the red carpet, like people holding banners and unfurling them in the theater. And Berlin just seemed really, at least this year, totally averse to any such expression or even, like, questioning of the filmmakers. So that was kind of put a weird sort of mood in there, I would say. And then the movies themselves, I didn't see that many because I was sick and tired. And the schedule was kind of not, didn't work in my favor. And you were there with a specific set of assignments, so, right?

No, no, I was just kind of there. No, I was just there. I mean, I had an assignment I had to do a prisoner exchange with a sort of like soft-spoken. Yeah, on your own time, though. On your own time. Yeah. So, yeah, I didn't see anything that I think will, like, set the world of fire, like, let's say, the secret agent when it played at Kim. But the secret agent, I feel like at Cannes was not necessarily the movie I would pick up to be.

like this is going to start picking up a lot of steam. You know, I mean, we have like two international films that have really, you know, done quite well across these Oscars. You have sentimental value. You have The Secret Agent. Yeah. I mean, I saw the Secret, both of those films like Ken. I saw The Secret Agent there.

And it was a film I liked a lot, though. I, like you, was, like, pretty tired when I saw it. So I did not feel like I was giving it, like, my entire do. But it was not a film that I would have guessed. would have gone as far as it has by any means. I mean, like, it, I think is a film that has rewarded multiple viewings. I think it's a great film. It is one of my favorite films of the year.

It's also, like, not an easy film. No, it's not. And yet, it keeps winning and getting nominated, being nominated for and winning awards that, like, it won at the Spirit Awards this past weekend. And not to knock that voting membership, but that's, you can just pay to be a member. You can just pay to be a voter. I think it's, like, something, 100 bucks a year or something. I mean, this brings me to my eternal question.

How real are, in this case, the Spirit Awards? I feel like they're approximately as real as the Gotham Awards, right? Like, they have a bit of an edge. They're a little realer than that. They're a little realer. I mean, they have a bit of an edge in that the nomination committee, which in this case is always kept secret, is larger. Yeah, it's not really even known like how that works. The Gotham Awards, the nomination, nominating committee is like five critics.

And it's public. Yes, and it's public. No one ever knows who's on the nominee. And there's photos of you being handed bags with dollar signs on them. And then there's writing that says nominate celebrity-driven movies. And then I scurry off going like, the Berlin subway rattling above you. Just like silhouette, in silhouette. Yeah.

As opposed to that, you know, the Spirit Awards are very careful about keeping who's on the nominating committee's secret. But it is more people. And I think people from across the film industry. And they still have a budget cap, unlike the Goths. They do still have a budget. Yeah. Yeah, but then the people who vote on the actual awards are just anyone who wants to be a member of film independent. Right.

And so oftentimes with the Spirit Awards, like, you'll get a really interesting list of nominees. A lot of times are, like, I haven't heard of that movie. Like, cool, that's something that I can check out. And then the winner is the most basic choice among those nominations. You know, it's the biggest celebrity in lead actor category, oftentimes the same in supporting. And so a movie like Secret Agent, I forget. what it was nominated against, but like winning the international feature one. It's like, I thought that movie was kind of prickly and tricky and esoteric and sort of hard to kind of grasp.

At least that's how I found it the first time I saw it. So that it really seems to be like penetrating even voting bodies that I think of as frankly being a little more like basic is interesting. And I guess maybe I don't know. I mean, it was a surprise, right, that it, that we're talking about it, that it's like a best. Because everyone. So. Yeah. It sort of seemed like it was just an accident.

The Iranian film. was going to get that slot. Yeah. I mean, like, this year's can was like, I thought, like, this past year's can't was a very good can, but it was a very internationally driven one. You know, not that it isn't always international. Like, we're, like, the United States does not go there being like, we're the center of the universe. I mean, I can. I mean, or we do do that.

No one necessarily listens. You had the one big English language film in time I love, but Lynn Ramsey is from Mars. So, like, that doesn't. It doesn't count. Yeah. Right. And, you know, you had. Some of these did not stick.

Julia Ducerno's Alpha, which is coming out now, that never got any traction. It did not go over well. Ben, were you a Tatan fan? Did you oversee Tatan? Her did. No, I think you might like it. I think you might hate Alpha, her follow-up. That's probably the steepest Palm Dorwin to, like, complete disaster that I've seen in a while.

I mean, it was not received well. Die My Love was there. Eddington was there, but neither of those has gotten the kind of awards traction. History of Sound was there. But Eddington integrated the Turning Point USA Awards. They also misunderstood it, I think. Okay, but yeah, it was just an accident, which won the Palm Door. You have New Val Vogue, the Richard Linklitz.

Which at the time felt like that'll be, it goes down easy, you know, it's kind of, it's sweet, it's sentimental, and that just, yep, didn't. Began's the resurrection, which went over really well with critics, even though I think. And it's just too, I think, difficult for, yeah, The Secret Agent, Sent to Bult of Value, Surratt, Sound of Falling. Surrott? Doing better than a lot of the movies you just named, like, kind of all. It's, like, really surprising, because that, too, is also really brutal and, you know, harrowing. It runs into certain taboos that I would not spoil here, but it deploys them so deliberately, like a statement, you know. You're talking about the techno music, which we had banned.

We tried to pan in America. And I'm just like, it should be. illegal. No one should be allowed to play techno music. But in, I don't agree with this. No, I'm kidding. I like it. In Europe, you can get away with it. No, I like Surat a lot. But, yeah, that was a film. I was kind of surprised how well that has continued to do it for.

Also, the mastermind, the Kelly Riker film, which I love, was also in competition. I never expect Kelly Riker to make a movie that is necessarily going to cause an enormous splash here. That's not really just the kind of movie she makes. But I feel like in a quieter year, maybe Josh O'Connor would have been more in the discussion about that actor. Considering how much he was in in 2025. and was good in all of the things he was in. He's so good in the mastermind. And you would have thought maybe something would have collected,

like in combination somehow he would have broken through. But yeah, Secret Agent, I don't know, my guess about why that sort of endured post can is that rewatching it, I was like, okay, there are accessible elements here. There's a sort of suspense angle. There's, you know, I also think that Brazil just sort of is looming a lot

in like movie consciousness in America right now after I'm still here last year, political, you know, kind of parallels between our country and theirs. And obviously, we've talked about it on this podcast. Like, Brazilian film fans are super activated. And so I think they've just permeated the consciousness of people in a way that,

and also, you know, he's a great filmmaker. He is a great filmmaker. I mean, it's interesting because I do feel like the Secret Agent is a much weirder movie than I'm still here, right? Oh, yeah. Like, what is I'm still here about? So it's about a former Brazilian congressman who is just kind of, you know, not in politics at the time.

He is like living this kind of lovely life with his family. And then he, but it continues to be a kind of like vocal figure. And he is basically just disappeared. And it is about the horror of that, but also just the aftermath and just like how it affects everyone else. Focusing primarily on his wife. Yeah. Who was nominated? Are these kinds of political films like mainstream in Brazil?

No, I don't think so. I think that it's kind of like, I remember years ago, I was saying to some French person at Cannes, I was like, wow, you guys were so lucky. I mean, all of your movies are, you know, they were like, Richard, no, the popular French movies are the worst comedies you've ever seen. Terrible action movies. Like, it's not that dissimilar. I think it, I mean, I don't know for sure. I did look this up. If you look up the Brazilian box office for 2025, the top slays, the top slays.

of movies for, like, is all just, like, Hollywood studio stuff for, like, a long stretch. But then 13 was, I'm Still Here, which did really well, you know. And Secret Agent did not do quite as well, but, like, it still did. It made, like, over $6 million, I believe, domestically in Brazil, which is a lot of money, you know? So it, these are not small films. But I feel like it raises, I feel like what you're getting at a bit is a lot of these films that end up on the festival. circuit are made, you can argue that their primary audience is the international festival circuit and not a domestic audience.

There were also forces within the government, you know, past administrations in Brazil, that were kind of actively suppressing these films and, you know, in something as like ultimately petty is like not nominating it or not submitting it for the Oscars, but in other ways being more regressive about it. Yeah. I mean, and certainly in some countries, like in Iran, you know, a lot of the film that are the most lauded internationally, you know, these films from Iran are not shown because they're all banned, right? Like, they don't get approval to be shown in theaters, and oftentimes

the filmmakers are living in exile. So... And I think that sometimes that's like a really beautiful function of something like Cannes, although sometimes I can detect. There's a, I don't know, maybe I'm being silly, but like, a sort of like, are we being a little patronizing here? Like, like, I remember there was this movie at Cannes years ago called Rafiki, and it was from Kenya, I think the first Kenyan film ever to be, like, in a competition it can. And it was about two teenage girls who fall in love in Nairobi. And it was a sweet movie, first-time filmmaker, like, nice energy to it. It wasn't like the best movie anyone's ever seen, but it was like solid. And I think it may be won an award or something or was at least close to. And the Kenian government had banned the movie from playing in Kenya. And a lot of people on the ground at Cannes were like, well, we're going to show them. And we're going to, you know, look, the rest of the world will teach. teach that. And I understand that sentiment, but I think sometimes, I don't know, it can feel a little bit like, let's not overstate what this festival's doing to the politics of another country. Yeah, I think it's also, it's an impossible to resolve divide. Like, I was talking to a filmmaker who'd grown up in Iran and I'm not going to blow up his spot, but I was just talking just like so much shit about other. I was like, oh, the world of like the Iranian filmmakers is just as small and petty as like all other. And I'm not going to. And I'm not going to. I was just like, oh, the world of like the Iranian filmmakers is just as small and petty as like all other. I was just. I was just talking. I was just like, kind of like, you know, artistic worlds where everyone is also placed directly in competition. Everyone has their, like, friends and then they're their enemies.

But he was talking about just like that frustration of feeling like there is pressure for you to also, I mean, there is, like, people that want to hear stories about how awful things are, right, in your repressive country. Because that's a symbol of, like, one, like, you're speaking out against this. And also, like, you know, it is offering this insight into, like what life is like there. But obviously it's like a particular kind of insight. And like he was talking about how, yeah, on like on one side, he's like, I don't support the regime. Like obviously. And on the other side was like, but also it feels so uncomfortable to be like kind of like

always leaning into that for the benefit of like international audiences who watch that and feel kind of very like self-satisfied about what, yeah, like kind of what they're showcasing and right. Yeah. Like my idea of life in Tehran is like, if I was just like reading all of those movies one way is like oh God everyone's just walking around completely miserable there and I don't think that people like find a way to live

you know my therapy an old therapist used to say even during the siege of Leningrad people took piano lessons you know like life goes on and I do think that the best of these Iranian films or whatever from other countries that are dealing with real political hardship like they do show at least some aspect

of that like I don't know I think to English films or films from Great Britain they are so sold on their Britishness and that kind of just becomes a market reality when you're trying

to sell things to an American market which is one of if not the largest English speaking market certainly Oh 100% and if you look at like Oscar like history like 80s 90s there have been different waves of the sort of anglophilia within the academy

of like Billy Elliott and Fulmonte kind of ushered in this sort of like, you know, pip-p-p sort of like quirky, cute, like, let's put on a show, British movie, you know, the working title, a production company distributor in the UK, those sort of like glossier romantic comedies that Americans became addicted to for a while.

And thus Britain, the film industry there, became addicted to because they could make them and sell them overseas. Yeah, no, there's just as much fetishization there. as there can be with others. Or, I mean, you brought up France and, like, you know, yes. Like, for a long time American art house cinemas were sustained by talky French dramas about infidelity, right? Like, that was just like... With a woman's name is the title.

Exactly. Like, that was just... And, like, you know, to the point where, especially, like, as, like, a teenager with those were mostly the French films I was exposed to, I was just like, well, this is what they watch in France all the time. And then you go to France, and all of the posters are for something called, like, like Le Brunze, like a sex comedy about like these middle-aged friends going to, you know, on vacation together. Or, I don't know, I was looking at the highest grossing French film in France last year was like the fifth, fourth or fifth installment in a comedy series called like God Save the Tush, I think it's called.

Which as far as I can tell is about this weird family who wins the lottery in the first installment and then just keep ending up and fish out of water situations in different parts of the world. I apologize if I miscategorizing that. Yeah, I do think, like, this most recent one, did they end up in the UK. Okay. But, yeah, like, those ones do not come over here. So we're going to do a Patreon podcast. We're going to do special just the whole, yes, all of the Toosh series. Great. Those ones do not come over here, right?

Like, and I think there is also an interesting phenomenon where you have, I mean, like, the most, the highest grossing film in Iran is a comedy that came out in 2024 called 7030, you know, does not come out here. Like, there is, like, a particular, there are market forces that also, I. In particular, like, we still mostly play international films here in the context of Art House, right? So, like, we don't have a lot of places to play something, like, a broad French comedy beyond the fact that I don't think we would necessarily get the jokes. You know, like, it feels very like the humor feels very specific. Where is that going to come out? Yeah. Films from India, from various, you know, Tollywood and Bollywood, those play at, you know, in New York City, they'll play at one of the bigger multiplexes for a weekend or two.

and some anime, especially increasingly, it does weirdly, even though that's, I don't know, it feels like K-pop Demon Hunter sort of broke the seal on that. Well, there's also been, I mean, there've been one-offs of all of these, like, it'll be a film attached to an anime series. It will do, like, enormous numbers, you know? Like, those are wildly popular in its, like, kind of own way

that I feel like clearly is speaking to people who love a series of one, a communal experience with other fans. But, yeah, you have, like, Indian films that are often, and sometimes like huge here but are marketed almost exclusively to a diaspora audience. In bigger cities where there's a... Yeah.

Chinese blockbusters will play if you go to the 40 seconds AMC here in the top floors they will often have like, you know, like Chinese blockbusters also are not marketed outside of diaspora audiences. Films from the Philippines, like romantic comedy.

Like there is just a whole realm of like popular international cinema that for the most, oftentimes we do not even hear about. David! this episode don't act so surprised. because it's a familiar friend.

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Wonderful platform. Dang right. I'm just looking at some of the stuff they got right now. Die my love, of course. Yeah. An important watch, a necessary watch for any blankie. La Graza. LaGrazia, the new Palos Orantino movie, which I missed in theaters.

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It's Young, Dreamy Cage. Wow. Still dreaming to me? Hey, you're very open-hearted. Anyway, to stream the best of cinema, you can try Mooby-free for 30 days at Mooby.com slash blankcheck. That's M-U-B-I-D-com slash Blank Check

for a whole month of Great Cinema for free and then go see my father's shadow in theaters. Please, thank you for listening. Thank you. Thank you for your attention to this matter. Thank you. Very kind. So something I have always wondered about, or been confused by,

is the process by which a film becomes an international nomination because it's different. It sort of seems like there's a Eurovision sort of situation where countries submit films, but you can apparently submit a film that's not from your country because it was just an accident. Was the French? Yeah, it was the French. How does all of this work? So what happens is there's a Japanese lightning gun named Raiden and he'll travel around and recruit various movies to compete against.

He's really busy. Like that time of here, he's just zapping around. I always see him, like, drunk at, like, can parties. It's really embarrassing. You're like, you need a vacation now. Yeah, it'll just zap away. No, I mean, it is up to the discretion of each country. Some of the selection committees, I think, are much more tied to the government than in other, some countries it's more independent.

I mean, obviously they are in some way affiliated with the government because the film is representing that country. To the extent that when, like, El Moldova won, like, Spain got that Oscar. He didn't get that Oscar. even though we held it on stage. But I think it really depends on the country in terms of it's oftentimes very political. There was that thing a couple years ago where there was a film from India called All We Imagine is Light that was at Cannes a few years ago. It performed very well at Cannes, which is somewhat rare for an Indian film. The knock against it from people who are much more closely associated with the Indian film industry is like, well, it played well it can because it plays like a Western movie.

Like it has this similar style to like a French indie that you might see it can. It's kind of dreamy and sort of it has, it uses more Western film grammar. And then the Indian, the board in India that would deselect what gets submitted to the Oscars picked a different film that they said in a statement better reflects India. And everyone was outraged because this female directed movie that everyone had loved it can that a lot of Western people really loved was not chosen as the selection. And they said, well, that's so stupid because it would have. gotten nominated and that would have been huge for India. But in that case, the board of people deciding that didn't really care if it affected their Oscar chances. Would that other film have been still eligible for Best Picture? Oh yeah. Yeah, very much so. It's just that one category that has

this kind of weird submission process that a lot of people think should be done away with. They've made some effort to correct it where they do like the long list thing now. They just, because it used to just be, is there a French film? It's getting nominated. And now that's changed a bit. Like, they've tried to diversify what movies these, you know, the nominating people are seeing. But in the case of a movie like it was just an accident

this year or Cedar the Sacred Fag, another Iranian film that went through Germany on, you know, in its Oscar campaign, a country can, if there is some connection, I believe it was just an accident, had some

French financing and CED of Sacred Fag Muhammad Roslough, the director of that, was living in exile in Germany at the time. And so there was a connection enough to the country that they were like, our stuff is not that good, we'll just do this.

And it's political goodwill. Yeah. It's also, there's so much politicking. I mean, like, famously, a few years ago, France did not pick anatomy of a fall, right, which did go on to get, like, a best picture and best director, nomination.

And won a screenplay. Yeah. They chose the taste of things instead, which is, you know, with Julieta Pinoche. It was a movie I also really liked, but that caused a minor controversy. People thought it was because

Justinit had criticized Macron in his speech, I believe, people were kind of like pinning that. I mean, it was also like, Anatomy of All is in a mix of languages, including English, which kind of like, that raises a question about like whether it has to be a certain percentage of not in English language. But I think also then,

according to a friend of mine, that led to a lot of voters feeling like they shouldn't vote for a taste of things, especially in Europe. Which sucks, because that movie was good. Yeah. But that because they felt like it was,

you know, they had to kind of punish France. And so there's all kinds of politicking behind the scenes. Yeah. So it is Eurovision. It is Eurovision. Yeah.

Look, imagine this. And I'm saying imagine it for different administrations. Imagine if the U.S. had to do this. Like, for like, if, if, if, if, If the Oscars were not American, if it's like the Oscars happen every year in Amsterdam, and we're trying to get American movies like attention and it's hard to get. Imagine the Trump administration.

What movie, I mean, they would be picking, they'd be like, can we do Sound of Freedom for the fourth year in a row? Yeah. Or whatever, right, of course. Yeah. Or like Brett Ratner's Rush Hour before would definitely be that when that gets made. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about the year, like, India chose like last film show for their. their submission which did not, it got shortlisted, it did not get far.

And it's fine, but it was like one, that year there were, I think, a bunch of kind of like starry-eyed films about film and the magic of movies, right? And you're like, yeah, you can see them being like, this is what we gotta do to get it. And so when they're submitting a film, they, do they tend to go more political or artier? It can be all over the place. I mean, I think it's always interesting to look at what, like, China submits now, especially recently. You know, like, China has, like, increasingly had its own, like, enormously homegrown kind of, like, blockbuster, you know, world of blockbusters that make enormous amounts of money. And sometimes when you look at earlier, you have films from, like, Zhang Yi-Mo, you have films, you know, from these different filmmakers whose films played really well on the international.

circuit and like in more recent years these have just all been like some of which are just like yes like big blockbusters like the wandering earth too you know was their submission a few years ago wolf warrior too like a super nationalistic like action movie there almost is this like fuck you like we don't need to play by your game anymore it doesn't matter alternative so over the weekend I saw Kukuho, the... What you called me? The Japanese submission for best foreign film that also did get

a Best Makeup Oscar. And that movie, which is like Kabuki, Stars Born sort of thing, makes a lot of sense because it's about this sort of Japanese cultural heritage. And then in 2021, they submitted Drive My Car, which won? Yeah. and which got a Best Picture nomination as well.

Yeah, I mean, it's, there is an interesting tension always between, I mean, Koku Ho is like a very successful film in Japan, like an enormous hit. But yeah, it also feels like it is very much showcasing an idea of Japaneseness that, you know, should be pretty clear to audiences about. And we should look to what the Japanese government is right now and versus what it was during the drive-my car year. like the administration's changed. It's become a bit more, you know, conservative. And, you know, and I think that the one heartening thing about this Byzantine kind of like process with the different countries having their own agendas is that for many, many, many years, that was the only route that a non-English language, non-American or British film really had toward the kind of awards attention that, yes, can lead to financial and, you know, success, all that.

increasingly these movies now are like well actually with 10 best picture nominees to fill like we could actually get them it's okay if they don't get not their country doesn't submit them

because maybe they'll do well anyway you know and obviously Parasite broke the dam in terms of being the first international film to win no to win best picture ever I did it I did a rough tally

if anyone's curious of and I could be wrong because I might have missed something here or there. But I only went back to the 70s. In the 70s, there were two non-English language films nominated for Best Picture. Both Swedish, right? Both Swedish. Yeah, the emigrants, cries of whispers. None in the 80s, not a single one. And granted, this was back when they were only five Best Picture nominees for any given year. Ninety-five had two in Il Postino, which was sort of a sentimental hit with it. And obviously a formative, uh, Clockwork Orange

style viewing experiment for me. Life is beautiful, obviously, which did win some things. Cratching Tiger in 2000. So then we're in the 2000s or the aughts. Crouching Tiger. And then 2006 has two that I think are sort of like nebulous. One is letters from Iwo Jima, which is in Japanese and stars Japanese actors, but it's directed by Clinties foot.

And it's a Hollywood production. So like that's kind of dubious. But that same year is also Babel, which is a big international co-production with some big movie stars in it in Brad Pitt and Cape Blanchet, and then, you know, other segments that are not in English. The artist in 2011 also kind of dubious. Yeah, yeah. It's a Harvey Weinstein production, but it's French filmmakers. But also it's, it's silent for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. And then something changes in 2012, and this is around when they start expanding the best picture, you know. Yeah, it was at 2010 was when they announced they were expanding, right? Yeah. So Amor,

the Michael Hanukkah film about dementia that is one of the most harrowing movies you could ever sit through. also beautiful. That broke through and got a best picture nomination, a best director nomination, and a best actress nomination. Then Roma happened, which again, Netflix, it's a little bit whatever, but that is, you know, a Mexican production. Parasite wins in 2019. In the 2020s, things have picked up, you know,

if you think about the 80s had zero. In the 2020s alone, you could count Minari by some extent, drive my car, big one, two in 2022, which were all quiet in the Western Front, and Triangle of Sadness, some in English, but not an American production. Anatomy of Fall, which won a screenplay Oscar, Emilia Perez, which is winning all this year's Oscars as well as last years.

And I'm still here. So that was two in the best picture lineup in 2024, and we have two this year in Secret Agent and Sent the Mental Value. So things seem to be progressing. Only Parasite has won, but it's still great that all of these movies and more in other categories are like part of the party now. Yeah. And I think, you know, we can't talk about this without noting that. At this point, the academy is, I think, like, a quarter international, like, in terms of where they're based. On their mother's side, yeah. On their mother's side. And, you know, the academy has made a really kind of, like, like, aggressive move to expand its membership, but particularly to expand its membership in terms of diversity, which has been long been criticized for. And part of the way it's done that is by becoming more international, which you could speak to another testament to the sad state of America, the American in the film industry.

where they just ran out of a kind of people to invite who are not white men, I guess, or... And there has been some criticism that I don't think can be founded in anything but, like, a feeling right now, necessarily. Is that for all of the good that making the branch, like the academy as a whole more international, and that you bring in different filmmakers, more exciting films from all over the world, is that these people are also bringing in some other prejudices, you know? And I know one thing that people are concerned about in terms of like the performance of the nickel boys or perhaps even sinners that ultimately in March this year is that like that stories about black Americans might not be of interest to like 70 year old French directors who are now part of the academy, you know, which is, you know, white French directors, I should say. Which like, again, it's not based in any fact, but it's necessarily, but it's based on sort of lived experience and intuition based on what we know about various other countries. film industries and yeah.

Yeah. And I think, you know, there is, it's a long been held as like a kind of like, I'm clad fact, though it's actually not, it's like much more complicated than this. Yeah. That like, uh, films about, uh, you know, characters of color just don't perform as well abroad. I think that like the numbers have actually proven that is not the case. Right. But it has long been used, um, especially with like big studio movies to justify. Not spending on marketing and not. Yeah. Exactly. And, and kind of like, not counting on these films, giving them as big a boost as you would, a blockbuster

starring a white actor. I think about the poster of 12 Years a Slave in which it's just like Brad Pitt is the only character on it. Yep. Yeah. That's a kind of amazing, famous one. Literally horrifying. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, let's turn our attention to The Secret Agent, a film that... Addresses tricky issues of race and class and politics. And, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a really dense movie that while a period piece speaks to the hearing knowledge. But I think one of the reasons that I think it is done so well is that it also is this kind of like big swaggering kind of like at certain points it's an action movie. At certain points it's a thriller. You know, like it's colorful.

It is. Like, yeah. You know, and I think, you know, Griff brought up a great point when we were talking about Marty Supreme, which is like. We were talking about Marty Supreme with Griffin done. Yeah. He just always comes by actually. We're always like, here he is again. Griffin, Dunn, if you ever want to come on the podcast, I would love to have you.

That, like, this feels like a 70s. It has a bit of this, like, muscular 70s, like, you know, New Hollywood Swagger, like, in terms of not just its setting, you know. And that's kind of, like, the really, like, rich, saturated colors that it has that feel like they evoke this over. And it's pacing, and, like, it feels, there are aspects to it that feel a little bit like the conversation or something like that. But also, like, you watch like Costa Gavros's Z from that era. Like, it also has that vibe, which it grant, it's not American, but, like, has that fun, shaggy, 70s energy that's also sophisticated intellectually and politically. And that's a really interesting, heady mix, I think. Yeah.

And then, you know, you have Wagner Mora, who, I've seen it so many things before. You know, he has been kind of, like, working in Hollywood, in American productions a lot in more recent years, you know, including. Well, he was in Narcos, the Netflix kind of like one of those really big And wasn't there some controversy that a Brazilian was playing famous Colombian Paulo Escobar? Yeah, that would make sense. Yeah, I think there was a little bit. Some people from Columbia

were like, wait a second. Yeah, and then, you know, he was in Civil War, he was in dope thief. He's been working a lot. An actor I've always liked, but yeah, when he comes on screen, he gets out of the little yellow, like, VW Beetle in this in his, like, sandals and his, like, scruff and his, like, polo shirt opened to a very 70s, like, down his chest. I was like, oh, wait,

Dr. Moore is, like, the most handsome man alive. He has a, like, safe quality. I, like, when he's on screen, I feel safe. Yeah. And I feel calm. And he so anchors everything in this, like, very chaotic place, both politically,

but also in terms of, like, there was just a party happening at all times. And when you're with him, his soft, soothing, ASMR voice. No, there's a warmth to him. Yeah, and actually, I think that's what made his performance as Escobar so compelling

was because he was, like, really sympathetic. I mean, you know, this band was doing horrible things, but compared to the cops on that show, you're like, but he's so, has that quality they're describing. No, he's perfectly cast in this. Yeah. And, I mean, I think, like, I was rewatching it, you know, in preparation for this.

And there's a little scene where he first, because he's, like, returned to Recifea, which is where director Claibor Mendoza, Filio, is from and he sets all of his movies aside from Baccaro. He picks up his child, which is the reason, one of the reasons he's come back to his hometown. And he is like driving with his son in the back seat and like listening to his son talk about like jaws, which he's obsessed with. And just like reaches his hand back to like hold his son's hand. And there's something that is just so like very unforcably just speaks to this enormous affection, you know, that you believe it so much.

I think a lot of this film feels, and not in a dreamy way, but it feels like it is informed by Filiu's, like, memories of this era in this, like, you know, a lot of this film is a bit about this child and kind of, like,

how much we retain in terms of memory, and how much gets lost. And especially with, like, no physical records. And I think there is, like, that touch of memory, not in a way that's distant, but in a way that feels, like, warm.

Like, you're remembering this, more moment from your childhood. You mentioned the first scene, which I think is so important, and is one of these, like, opening scenes that serves as sort of a metaphor for the film as a whole. Right. In which maybe we should just describe it as like there's a... He arrives in this...

It's like a little gas station on the road, and there's a dead body that's, like, just there covered by a cardboard box, basically, right? Yeah, and the cops arrive, and it sort of seems like they're... going to inspect this body, but instead they just take him down for bribe. And you can sort of, it's incredibly tense, but is also there's this like unspeakable thing that we cannot speak about that's just in the background. We don't know this guy's name. I think we

learned that he's like a thief. Yeah, he tried to rob the station. But otherwise is not a presence in the rest of the film. It's just this kind of thing that hangs over at. Well, there's a lovely image of Mora and this lovely yellow car and this landscape behind him and then right, you know, 15 feet away is a rotting dead body. And that's the kind of feeling you get. The dogs keep trying to eat. Yeah. Throughout the rest of the film is like, you know, that that seems to have been at least in this movie's, you know, memory or estimation, like the sort of bizarre juxtaposition of life in parts of Brazil then was like this loveliness, this warmth, this vibrancy, carnivals happening, all this stuff is happening. And yet next door or down, the street or right in front of me is this the rot of government, the violence of government, you know, all this stuff. And, but it's not heavy-handed when it does that, which I think is hard to do. I do think one of the reasons this movie has performed so well, despite not being conventional by any means in the terms of like the path it takes, is that it is about the experience of living under a kind of a dictatorship, right, which is to say these certain things are so

fundamentally broken in ways that make life like unstable and hard to count on, right? Like, yeah, the police come around and instead of doing their job, they just like shake you down for money. There's just so much naked corruption. Like what we learn about the main character, whose name is Armando, but goes by Marcello or Marcello, sorry, throughout most of the movie, is that, you know, like he basically ran into this like corrupt businessman who has also, like, had ties like very high up to the government. and it basically destroyed his life. But like to show the ways that all of those things are so broken

and at the same time, day-to-day life continues, right? Like carnival continues. Like it, like the bustle outside. People are taking piano lessons. Yeah, people are taking piano lessons. People are going to see jobs. Yeah, they're going to see Jaws. Or the Omen, which features in quite significantly.

They're recording podcasts about awards shows. Exactly. Exactly. And I do think that is part of the reason. I think it speaks to people so much. you know, even as it is like a kind of beguilingly weird movie for ways we can get into later, it is about the kind of that juxtaposition of living under this totally kind of like a government that has like thrown out all of the rules, you know, and I think there's one point where

Morra's character like is describing what happened to him. And he's just so, he's not outraged in like a kind of like blistering, like angry way. He's outraged in that way of just being like I'm so angry that I should have to even find myself in this situation. It is so unjust but also so absurd. Yeah, and I think the way that the film is careful to, you know, we have our hero, we have our antagonists, but even those antagonists are given these curious humanizing anecdotes and vignettes. And, you know, the young assassin and, you know, his older colleague and these kind of corrupt policemen in town, like, yes, they're bad guys, but also like, they're also kind of looking out for each other, and they're trying to get by in this horrid system

that has sort of put them in this place. I mean, they're feeding off of it, certainly more than other people are. But, like, the way that it shows this sort of sprawl of, you know, life during wartime, essentially, like, life, you know, that no, very few people involved are these kind of cinematic, monolithic villains. They are people who have been, to varying degrees, corrupted by something above them. David?

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It's about something that we can obviously relate to now, but it's also specifically about not only this past military dictatorship, but also the Bolsonaro regime. And Wagner Mora spoke about this when we saw him accept that award. You know, especially given, I think, a certain amount of national envy here about what happened, you know, how the response was to, you know, the Bolsenao government and, like, the end of the Bolsenaur government versus, you know, maybe certain more local reactions. I mentioned Aquarius. The first of his films that I saw in 2016 at Cannes, and that is set in the present day with the great Sonja Bragha in living in Reci, you know, and that's very much smaller about some basically government officials trying to get her out of her beloved condo or her apartment. so they can do some like gentrification, redistricting, whatever.

And that, you know, compared to something like Bakurau, which is this violent, you know, sort of like pushback against predacious capitalism and whatever. And Secret Agent, which is, you know, much more forceful in its sort of political, you know, intent. Aquarius seems sort of quaint. And yet that was the movie during the Bolsonaro government that had this huge protest at the, you know, I mean, it was people were in support of the film, but they had, you know, and all this stuff. And, and like, yeah, this has been on his mind, the filmmaker's mind, for a long time. And it's interesting to see that in some ways only after the Bolsonaro era had somewhat ended, did he feel like he could go and make the film, even though it's a period piece about a different regime that was sort of more full-bodied about what that is. Yeah. I think it's also, like, it ties in a lot to a documentary he made like three years ago called Pictures of Ghosts, which was about Reseifa and like in this case like a lot of his memories but also specifically memories of like the

movie palaces there which is another theme that kind of ties into what happens in this movie it was a film I really liked but yeah I mean I think you know like one thing about this film also is like I have kind of like broadly described it as a movie about like acts of resistance and I think it is but it I think it is much more deliberately tying together I mean there's one part where, you know, Armando arrives at this apartment complex that is like kind of, he's going to be sheltered there. And it turns out to be filled with all of these different people, yeah, who are on the run from different things. And I think that is something that is very pointed about, which is to be like, there are some people here who have run afoul of the military dictatorship.

There are other people who have come from, like, Angola. There is someone who is on the run from his, like, mean, unlike kind of, like, abusive, like, homophobic, like a father and uncle, there are people who are there for all different reasons. It is not just like, and, you know, they have a conversation where one of them calls them refugees and someone else is like, we don't use that word. He's like, what else would you call us? It is less about kind of like taking, like, as opposed to say like one battle after another, which opens, right, with like these kind of like acts of like deliberate kind of like acts of activism, right? Against the government. This is about people who have all been kind of.

like oppressed in different ways. And like it is about the kind of like sanctuary they find together, but it is about like the people who help them. Yeah. Yeah. And you get the sense, you know, that Armando, like his antagonist, this corrupt, is using the levers of corrupt government against him directly. Whereas in other of these sort of refugees cases, it's not so much that their antagonist has political sway or access. It's just that they can take advantage of a somewhat lawless system where they're like, you know, they could disappear you or they could, you know, there are bodies lying on the ground and in front of gas stations, like, who's going to really prosecute, you know. But yeah, the sense that like that this rot has not just sort of affected

those who have direct or even somewhat indirect ties with the government, but just really it just affects how people view life and live life. And then that he colors that with, like, Dona Sebastian, which is such a great character. And then the helpers, you know, is so nice because it's like, what a testament to people doing that then, people doing it now. Yeah. And that's a real parallel to one. Yeah. And I think it probably is something that resonated with people a lot.

Before we get into spoiler territory, I do want to shout out to one of my favorite ongoing threads in this film. I mean, one of them, like, in a broader sense is just this, like, deep, like, love for Brazilian culture. And it's, like, in kind of, like, a very distinctive and, like, kind of, like, kind of, like, like, kind of, like, like, like, diverse and like singular celebration, right? Up to and including Carnival, even while he's in this incredibly stressful situation, there is a scene in which Armando walks out into the street and Carnival is happening, everyone is partying,

and he, like, joins them. Yeah, he kind of like shimmies into the crowd in a way that's lovely. My other favorite thread that is ongoing here is just a kind of constant reminder just be like, people be fucking. Yeah. There are like multiple scenes in which they just kind of like

walk in or like spot some of people. People like having sex in sometimes public places. Why not? Why not? You know? No, it's true. Like, yeah, like that life, you know, life carries on. Yeah, yeah.

No, it isn't to say that like these repressive, you know, governments should be tolerated. But like, but yeah, something survives. Yeah, life does not stop. Yeah. All right. We're going to talk spoilers for The Secret Agent. This section lasts about 23 and a half minutes if you want to skip ahead. Well, biggest spoilers about the secret agent now that we are over the spoiler wall.

He's not a secret agent. No, I was going to say that is like one of the funniest things to be like, where does the title come from? And you're like, it comes from, I had to look up the name of this movie because I could not recognize it. Like it comes from a movie that is playing at his father-in-law's cinema, which is also an important location throughout the film that they keep returning to. It is the 1973 spy spoof, the man from Acapulco. starring Jean-Paul Belmando and Jacqueline Bissette. Ah, okay. Yes, I looked through the credits for it. But yeah, so that, I suppose, in Brazil, was released as a secret agent. And so that is where the name comes. Yeah, I mean, like, when the movie starts,

there is this moment where you're expecting him to turn out to be a spy or, like, undercover part of some kind of, like, yeah, underground resistance. Yeah. But I also think that there, I mean, maybe I'm, maybe sitting in the back of the car with his dad, that kid is looking at his mysterious father who disappeared for a while and be like,

I think he might be a secret agent, you know? Like, there's a sort of like, awe almost projected from son to father about this. And, like, you know, all the movie theater stuff is so much from Phil Hill's own life. And, like, I mean, that, that shot that pushes out through the window and looks at that, like, is, like, one of the most stunning shots of last year.

Like, it's so good. And I make this comparison, favorably, I realize it might not sound that way to other people. I see a lot of Roma in there, like the sense memory stuff and like the grand old, you know, movie palace kind of stuff and like a real like, let me do the best I can, I can to make manifest, you know, like you were saying, like distinct memories of like an egg on a table or, you know, whatever, like the way that my dad looked in the rearview mirror, you know. The drawings he makes of, like the sun is obsessed with jaws. and keeps drawing these amazingly adorable photos of sharks, including, like, the poster. Like, there's an incredible rendition of the Jaws poster

with, like, shark coming up. Yeah. And it's funny to remember, like, and I don't think it's overstated in the film, like, that in the States, too, when that movie came out, like, people had a really hard time dealing with the violence of that movie and the suspense of that movie,

like people vomiting and running out of the theater and fainting and all that. That was real. Yeah. No, I like the people who kind of, like, they watch the Omen, and they come out and they're like, I might be possessed in the lobby.

It's just like a background thing going on. I appreciate that. Yeah, so this is a movie that is not about a secret agent. We, but for a long stretch, because he is, like, operating under the kind of, like, certain, like,

what we expect from someone who is, like, maybe undercover on the run, but undercover, you know, like, yes, he is going to this. He's meeting with contacts. They're setting him up with different things.

He's, like, they're setting him up at the job at, like, the identification card, office, right? And that makes him, puts him the orbit of the corrupt chief of police, which he doesn't want to know about. There's a sense of mission here. Yes. Yes. And then that all kind of slowly dissolves the further we get because we learn, he's not like, the thing he's trying to achieve is intensely personal, right? And like what we're doing here is not some kind of like mission on behalf of

some other force. It is him. It's an active memory. It is him trying to get this card, this identification card of his mother, and the context of which we do not learn until the very end of the movie, but he is willing to risk so much, like his personal safety, to find this card before he and his son flee the country. Because there was a very real chance, and it happened where, like, their memory would, they would be totally kind of wiped from existence in a way, as if they were never there, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and I, you know, I think one of the great moments in this movie is when we learn, we do not learn until literally years in the future, you know, in the Coda, which skips ahead to, uh, you know, a present day, uh, where we have his son now played by Wagner Mora. Yeah. Um, in this incredible, I think, like, double role that is like very carefully delineated. But, uh, he explains that, um, his grandmother, uh, Armando's mother was the daughter of like the housekeeper in this house and, uh, basically at 14 was impregnated by the son. The 17-year-old son had a baby. The baby looked white enough, as he said.

Like, he kind of, like, lays that out, right? His mother was nicknamed India. He was beautiful. So they kept him. They took him away from her. And she had no choice about keeping him or no say about that at all. And they raised him in this kind of, like,

more moneyed family. So that was it. Like, the only trace he has of his mother's existence is this identity card. Yeah, yeah, exactly. When he's playing the son. Yes. Did you, I've heard two schools who thought about this.

Do you think he's playing it as gay? I, someone mentioned that to me as a, as a possible reading. I, the time I rewatch it this time, with that in mind. I feel like it's, it's not there or it could be there. Yeah, like, and other people were like, oh, no, it's so interesting that they had that he had the son be gay when he's an adult. And I was like, oh, was that a thing in the movie? I don't think that, I don't think it is the way he plays that character repels that reading.

but I do not think it is like obviously. I'm not sure that's... I just don't think there's... I just don't think there's... I don't think there's... People say it to me with such conviction. I think that if that were the case, I guess you could understand it as like

just further evidence of like, look how far the countries come. Like, you know, like progress has been made in some arenas, not, and others, you know, whatever, like that this gay, out gay man, whatever, you know. But it's just like a funny little added theory about that at the end of that movie.

One thing that I love about that scene and how it's scripted is that when he's recounting some of his experiences, he misremembers things that we have already seen happen in the film where I think he talks about how he had wanted to go see Jaws. His father says absolutely not. He's like, you know, like he already has nightmares all the time. It's a grandfather who wants to bring him to see it. Right. And then in his mind, and then when he retells it, he reverses that, which, you know, goes back to all of these things. themes about memory and and how like if we don't speak the things if we don't have the ID card if we don't talk about the man under the cardboard at the gas station then we we lose these things and

we don't have them at all and then we repeat them yeah you know because we repeat the bad stuff because we didn't learn from the yeah no there I think there is a tremendous worry about what the cost is of just a facing history like like obviously time goes on right like the not the, it's not supposed to be the movie theater. The movie keeps taking, like, returning to, but another movie theater. The theater where he says he saw Jaws is now the blood bank that he's, like, working at as a doctor. Yeah. And that's like a real thing from pictures of ghosts. Like, that was really a movie theater that the director had gone to see movies at as a kid and is now a blood bank. But yeah, like, I think there is so much about the ways in which it's easy to kind of like manipulate the record, historical record, and then to manipulate, memory that way, right? Because like, I mean, even like, there's like so, it's kind of, uh, Mora like under delivers it and it makes it even more devastating when he tells Flavia this, this researcher who has been listening to tapes of his father, you know, like, you remember my father better than I do. Like even this horrible image of like him as a child on the day that his father turns out

to be killed, shot in the street, like waiting for his father to pick him up. You know, he tells a story and he's like, I don't remember it myself. I know I've created like this, you know, kind of like stand in memory because my grandfather told me this. But like I don't remember it. Yeah. And I do think that there is definitely, I like, apparently I like to do this, set up strongman movies that don't exist. But there is a worst movie, a worst version of this movie that's like, we see him gun down. The boy is just out of reach and he falls dead on the street in front of his son.

Or even like it's intercut. Like he's trying to get there to this way. He never knows. Instead, like, in a way that I think really does risk alienation with American viewers, well, a lot of... And it did...

Me at first, I was confused. It's like, we only find out that he got shot and killed from a photograph when the movie has fully moved into the present tense, you know?

And we never see that. There is no resolution to even, did it happen that day, like an hour later, did 10 minutes later, like, we see the one assassin see his dead colleague and then kind of disappeared.

It's like, oh, I guess the understanding is he caught up with him and killed him. Yeah. But like, um, you know, it's so blunt, but I think that's so effective because that's exactly how, in some ways,

it was how it was experienced by the sun. It was not in sight. It was just something he heard about. And maybe he saw that newspaper photograph at some point, but like it's an abstraction to him in a way. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, like the kind of most outsized version of that is hairy leg, right? Which is the story that the newspapers run with in this like kind of outrageous tabloid, you know, like super-nized. story where they're claiming that this leg, just like a kind of like severed leg, is menacing people who are cruising in these various spots. And like everyone who reads the newspaper story can read between the lines and know that it's like people who are cruising.

But like, yes, and then this leg attacks people. And this is like a huge newspaper story. Like all of the newsboys are like clamoring for that because they know it's going to sell so well. And then when you get that kind of final scene in which Bobby like the. one of the two assassins is, like, killed, and they put the newspaper over him. You see the headline, it's like, Carnival deaths are up to, like, 91. Yeah. And you're like, oh, that was sort of a distraction from, like, the actual ongoing violence that has been happening, you know?

And the leg in question is, right, it's alluded to that that that's the leg of someone that was killed illegally by the police, or at least disposed of, right? Right. Except then when they build out the hairy leg mythology, eventually hairy leg is the one stealing the leg from the morgue. So then it becomes like, you're like, wait, are there mulks? multiple legs out there, what is going on. But yeah, I mean, like, when you actually see the rendering of Harry Leg, like a stop-motion monster movie, right? Like, jumping around and, like, kicking people on the face.

A shocking scene, just because it is so, it's almost like you are in a movie within the movie. Yeah. It looks completely different. It feels completely different. Like, the music is, like, monster, like, throwback monster movie music. And it's really funny, but it's also funny that it is left to, like, pretty. late in the movie also. Like, you know, like, the ways in which of this movie unfolds and the way in which it, like, it waits so long to let you know why Armando is on the run and, like, being hunted, you know,

like has, like, literally a hit out on his head, you know. And some might say, I mean, I have heard the criticism. It does try patience a bit. Like, it's, it's not as fast-paced as a movie as it maybe sells itself as at the beginning. It takes a long time to really find out what the hell is going on. Yeah, no, it is not, it does not unfold in a conventional way at all. Which, again, is why it's surprising. Yeah, right, right, that it's gotten all this Oscar attention. Yeah. No, I think, like, that scene where, where Armando finally just talks, like, to the head of this kind of, like, you know, group of, like, helping people get out of the country.

Yeah. Like, just tells the story of what happened is so good. Like, you know, I don't know what, I don't know if we've mentioned, but, like, Wagner was obviously nominated for best actor, like, what his, like, snippet is going to be. but I have to imagine it's going to, it has to be from that scene. I would think so. He's so great in it. Like the particular version of outrage he expresses, yes, is like, it's like I am so upset that not just what was done to me, yes,

but like that it should have been able to happen at all. Like, like, I am so offended by the kind of like brash corruption of this man. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you can see where his nomination comes in. I think also the Cota with him playing another character helps. But also I think the real triumph of the Academy, Academy, in regards to this movie, is, like, the best casting nomination. Like, it's the first time they've done this category.

Everyone was like, well, how's this going to work? Is it just going to be like, it is, it turns out five Best Picture nominees. Hopefully, in the years to come, they can think a bit more broadly about, like, what specifically is working casting-wise in a movie. It doesn't just have to be. I like that ensemble from a Best Picture nominee. But in the Secret Agent's case, they could have gone a different direction with casting. There were, you know, four other choices. but like, um,

this movie is so beautifully populated, like from the woman who does the interviewing to Donna Sebastianna to these gangsters, to the kid, to the leg, to whatever. Like, it's just,

it's a, it's, and I, I would have to imagine that the branch nominating it for casting has not worked with this Brazilian casting director before. She's, they're not a colleague of,

you know, theirs, but they just see how beautifully, uh, you know, everyone fits so perfectly into this tapestry. Um, I think that's,

for me, that's the coolest nominating. it got. Yeah, it is really, I mean, because the casting is amazing. Like, this movie has an enormous cast of, like, memorable faces and voices and, you know. And bodies, honestly, like, one of the things I love is just, like, how many bodies, like, and types of bodies you see on screen.

But, yeah, like, these are, there are a lot of actors that he's worked with before. There are a lot of repeat faces from Baccarau, for instance. Like, he clearly has... Udo Kira. Yeah, and then Udo Kier's. Terrific in this, like, single sequence in which he plays. plays a Jewish man. That brings to all this other Brazilian history.

Oh, my God. Of course, like World War II, like, you know, like, it wasn't just the Nazis who fled to South America. There were tons of other people from Europe who ended up there. Like, and that he doesn't, like, turn that into some sort of bit of didactic. Like, this is also part of the tapestry of this city and this country. It's like, no, no, no, that's another movie. But I just want to touch on it briefly, you know, and effectively.

Yeah. And just also the ways in which the police chief. Just kind of like has no interest in understanding what this man's actual background is. They're just like, show us your scars. Like, yeah, like you must be a soldier. And you're like, he wasn't a soldier. This is not where those scars came from. But, yeah, that scene is terrific.

Special mention for Dona Sebastian. Yeah. Oh, she's so good. Maria. Tanya Maria. Tanya Maria. Yeah. She's amazing.

That's the one thing. That would be like, I mean, it would take a lot for the Oscars to pay attention to a performance that's like that far down in the... This is why we need our... special appearance. The third. Oscar. She's like the single scene.

She's like the perfect. Yeah. She's so wonderful. She's so, she like, especially contrast to Wagner, just like, she's so tiny. And do we know anything about her?

She was in Baccaro as well. She, it's funny. She's listed as an actress, artisan, and seamstress on Wikipedia. She might just be some colorful character.

Yeah, like I think the first, like the, Baccaro seems to be her first acting credits. So, you know, she was just someone that he found, and she seems to have, like, an amazing kind of, like, storied life. And her character has an amazing storied life. One of my favorite lines of hers is when she says, you know, like, I did three things in Italy when I was in Italy during the war, and I'm not going to tell you what they are, but I had to do them. And you're like, oh, she's been through so much. She's done so much.

What did you think of the sort of wrap-around story with the two researchers who, You don't really know, they kind of pop in for the first time, maybe halfway through, and you don't really know why they're listening to these tapes at first. It was like, are they making a podcast? No, I mean, it is a wild, that is like, even more so than Harry Leg, I think, is like the wildest jump when, like, halfway through the movie, we suddenly leaped, like, decades to these two characters who's never seen before who are listening to audio tapes. And even the shock of seeing modern technology, you're like, whoa, wait a second. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that like the way that it works so well when it arrives because it's like, you know, this mounting worry that there will be no kind of acknowledgement or reckoning with this past at all because in the present, in the 70s present tense of the movie, like they all feel so swallowed up by this thing that there's a sense of comfort and sadness when you're like, okay. So like this is all at least known by these two, you know, researchers or whatever. Like at least.

someone is, you know, finding that. But it also, like, just becomes, I think for one of them, it is, like, the thing she does for her job. You know, it is, like, unusual that Flavia is, like, there are still people attached to this that I can find through great effort, right? But that that's a job at all seems of value, right? Like, like, even that is, like, right, you're like, all of this through the grace of, you know, this, yes, like, daughter of a wealthy, corrupt Saobala family who decided to invest her money into this kind of underground. including taking documentation, which is never explained why she is invested in that. But yeah, you're like, oh, that is the only reason why we have this chorus of voices, you know, documenting this time because, like, one of the things about being an underground kind of like,

this underground world is that there is no kind of public-facing history of that, right? Like, it is at the time you have to live in secret. This is all being done in secret. So, yeah, those audio tapes become, you know, the only record. And I think you feel in the movie the delicacy. with which like, you know, like real historical record versus like the kind of history that then gets created officially.

Yeah, and I do think that that kind of present tense framing device like runs the risk of being a little bit like not gimmicky, but a bit like cloying or something. And I've seen some criticisms of this movie that kind of say something to that effect. Like, we didn't really need this. It kind of telegraphs what the movie's about too much.

I kind of, on second viewing, I disagree. I think it's deployed effectively and with restraint enough that even the sort of more sentimental ending with this meeting of these two people who, you know, seem to be bridging all these different divides. And I think it works because similar to the sort of unseen death of Armando, like the direction the writing doesn't sort of just overplay it. Yeah. No, I think one of the things, you know, that makes it so heartbreaking is the way that Mora plays that second character, you know, like, you know, like, you. in this... He's kind of indifferent to it.

Or just like, he's like, I cannot pretend to, like, feel these enormous, like, you know, like feelings of grief. This person is gone from my memory, you know? Like, he is only a concept to me now. Like, you understand him as a person more than I do. You're like, that's such a sad thing. It's also a very real thing. Yeah. I think when I've done documentary projects and stuff, I've interviewed people and this, that happens.

Whereas, like, you know, you know more about the subject than they do. You want something from them that they can't always give you. Yeah. Both on an emotional level and on a textual level of like, I need this for my work or just my personal self-knowledge, self-satisfaction. Yeah. But like life moved on for him and like both Armando and Flavia are doing a homecoming, you know, to find something. You know, he's looking for this card, this identity card for his mother. Flavvy's looking to like just kind of make a connection with this family.

she's been essentially, you know, listening to or one member of. And the kind of, yeah, he basically tells her, he's like, oh, I don't know, life moved on, you know, like, yes, I know it was a big thing and I appreciate that you care about it, but like, we can't, I can't dwell on that, you know. And I think also he's just like, that's just not the life, you know, like I was raised by my grandfather. He is who I think of as my father like that. Before we, I do want to talk a bit more about Wagner-Mora, but before we do that, I did want to ask you, in light of our earlier conversation. Do you feel like this movie is built with international audiences in mind? It doesn't feel that way to me. I mean, I can't infer anyone's intent behind the camera.

But like it, I think because of the sort of like the plotting that is a bit obfuscating, the strangeness of it, the deep from what I understand like this sort of, I hate to use this fucking term, but like the sort of deep roster of like Easter eggs for like references to Brazilian culture and history and very specific stuff. No, I think it's made for Brazilians Because obviously they're the ones who are going to You know, feel it most potently Yeah, I think

You know, it's great that it does It has appeal beyond that Yeah, I mean, one of the things I appreciate Is that it does not kind of do the very heavy-handed like Here's a no, I mean like even the opening Like crawl of text, right? It's like, it's Brazil in 1977 It's a period of great mischief

And is not like the military dictator, you know? So I had a funny thing happened at my screening. Yeah. You know, they're pretty solemn ending. The credits roll, a woman stands up and shouts, Viva Brazil.

Okay. All right. Like, to the crowd. Yeah. And it sort of got me thinking about how the characters in this movie kind of talk about how much they hate Brazil constantly. Like they're telling, you know, it's like they're very put upon living in this place where they are oppressed.

And yet the movie so clearly loves Brazil. Yes. Like, there are parties in the streets. It's so colorful. It has a sense of national pride. Yeah. And nobody is standing up at the end of one battle after another and saying, like, God bless America.

Well, you don't know that. Yeah. And I just kind of think, like... I was cheering on Team USA and the figure skating, though, you know, like during Olympics. Like, I, like, I can understand some degree of that duality. I mean, like, obviously, in this case, it's much more about, like, national identity that is, like, these, you know, kids are skating well. I mean, you know, how does, what is a song that one battle after another ends on? Yeah.

So, I think, like, maybe we're also in a place right now where maybe most of us are not inclined to stand up and yell, you know, God bless America. We have a, we're having a hard time understanding what national pride means and how to have national pride, if we should have it at all. And I just found it kind of inspiring that this artist was able to make a movie that is both self-critical and proud of itself. The more I talk about this movie, the more I think it is just a stone-cold masterpiece. Yeah. No, I think it's a tremendous movie. And I think you were totally correct. I think, like, one of its greatest strengths is the, like, boundless wells of affection it has for the culture and people and landscape of this culture.

And thus the sadness about the fact that it has to be so marred and derailed and harmed and, you know, and made ugly on the international stage by these, this cabal of horrible, you know, military, you know, politicians and stuff. Yeah. There's a, in that long live Brazil, there's also a sadness and a defiance and a rage there, you know. David? What? Don, no. Oh, boy. Dono.

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All right. Wagner Mora. Yeah. There is like a part of me that is like if anyone pulls an upset in Best Actor, which everyone has been like, it's Timmy's, you know, like, Timmy's going to get it. It would be Wagner who, I don't know that any of us would have called as like the nominian. any, you know, like, even a few months before, like, that, like, watching him kind of, like, rise through the ranks in terms of, like, all of these kind of, like, the praise he was getting, but also certain precursor awards, or you're like, oh, it's going to, it's going to happen.

He's going to get a nomination. Yeah, they clearly like that movie, the Academy. And I do think that, you know, usually we think of a vote split happening between people from the same movie. But in this case, like, can two frontrunners in Salome and DiCaprio, presumably, can they split it? And there comes this in, you know, yeah, I could see it. I mean, I think that last year, yes, the conversation was very much like Mikey versus to me more. But I think that Fernando Torres from I'm still here, I think she came pretty close, you know. She won the Golden Globe. She won the Globe. Yeah, which, you know, doesn't always mean anything. But like, there was momentum. I think if that movie had had two, three more weeks, momentum time, they would have been a much, much tougher competition. It was just that I'm still here, sort of. of arrived kind of late in the consciousness for a lot of voters, whereas I think that Secret Agent

has had a lot more time to linger for a variety of, you know, like it was at Cannes, you know, a while ago. Neon did a good job of making sure people saw it. I mean, that's reflected in the amount of nominations it got. And so that means that Mora is probably way more front of mind than Fernando Torres was. The history of actors winning in languages in performances that are in languages other than English is like, it's a fairly limited one, you know, though as you mentioned, like, they're, like, we are in a moment of like a much more kind of like slow, a long, long incoming, opening up of, of not just Best Picture, but these other categories to, to, uh, non-English language films. We had, what, you should young for Minari, right?

Yeah, Zoe Saltona. Oh, of course, yeah. That is largely a Spanish-speaking role. That's true. Yeah, yeah. And then, I know, you go back to like Marion Cote. yard. There are some angels in this city. Roberto Benini. Yeah. Unforgettable.

Yeah. But like, you know if you go and sit in the old Oscar auditorium, you can still feel him dancing on the seats behind you. Yes. Yeah.

I do wonder. I believe that there's been a whole goddamn Olympics in Italy and they have not sent him falling down a fucking ski jump hill or. Just doing a prep ball. Why is he not doing prep falls all over the place?

Yeah. Why isn't he the mascot? They're giving all the winners this little like stuffed stote or like weasel or whatever and it's like no it should be benigny no did he do that uh acceptance speech for nothing i know i wonder if he's fallen out of like favor yeah yeah this truth is i have not kept up with what roberto benigni has been up to lately so well guess what yeah i guess next week we're gonna we're gonna look this up and it's gonna be like he is a serial girl he is a close advisor to georgia maloney like yeah like oh okay um but but i do

think that um like one thing that more has as an advantage is that he has been in, he like lives in L.A. with his family, you know, he has been in a bunch of American productions. Like, he is someone that, like, crafts people are aware of. Narcos was big. Marcos was a very popular show. Yeah, like that was like one of those, like, Netflix giving one of those flickers of like the last gas somonoculture, right? Like every once in a while, Netflix is like one of the last places capable of pulling that off. The tractor being pulled in like middle age dads. Exactly. Here we go. You're like, oh, then you're like, you'd hear you. people talking about it in the wild, which is not always the case with major Netflix.

No, that definitely is to his advantage. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So do I think it's going to happen? I don't know that I'm feeling that. But like, I think if there is an upset, it would be him. Like, if someone does not. Yeah, no, I know. I think 100%. And I do think that like DiCaprio's disadvantage is like a certain kind of more like legacy fatigue of like, oh, we gave that kid the thing 10 years ago. He's not a kid anymore. Like what like he's part of the club. He, he, he, you know, bangs all these young models and makes $20 million a movie, like, I don't want to give him another award. And then, to me, it's like, oh, he's too young and, like, cool and my daughter is obsessed with him, whatever, you know. Whereas here comes this, like, solid man, you know, like, well, like warmth, a warmth kind of nice masculinity, you know, in this, like, big, like, important movie.

Even in the movie, their character shows, who's like, see, that is a man. I could see all members of, you know, different, you know, quadrants of the, of the academy being like, that's our guy. Yeah, yeah. That'd be thrilling. I mean, I would be, I'm, I think I'm still kind of weirdly rooting for Shalameh, even though like. And like, think of Clit Shalamee. What would become of her if, if you didn't win? I mean, she'd be under a piece of cardboard outside of gas station.

She would just put herself there, just like kind of crawl there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, I would not be sad if that happens. No offense to Timmy, who I think is incredible in Marty Supreme, but. The closer we get to the ceremony, I mean, we're only a few weeks away. I am in full, like, just surprise.

mode. Yeah. Like after watching the Spirit Awards were like it was like the winners were like kind of like, okay, so it's train dreams for director. And it felt kind of, I mean, I was thrilled for Roseburn winning, but like, okay, you know, like, I would, I mean, if she won at the Oscars, holy cow, that would be crazy. But like, I just, I want surprises now. And Moro would be both that, but also something I could actually like root for. Yeah. Before we go, I wanted to do our weekly Eil Postino corner. Oh, yeah. Of course. Okay. Yeah. Bob, do you have the electrodes to strap to Allison's head? Well, I don't have the electrodes. I'm aware of them all the time now. But I do have... So I did some digging. Yeah. To try and find this study.

Yeah. So you went to the records office, posed as someone else. Yeah. Well, I actually, you know, I did a little bit of search through the literature. Sure. I mean, you are a research professional. Sort of. Yeah. Well, thank you.

I should also say that a blankie on the subreddit also dug this up so it's not like... Yes. It was an incredible feat of a research. research. But so anyway, well, maybe we should remind people what actually this was. When I was an undergrad, I did a lot of psych experiments for money. They would like literally pay you cash for you come in and participate in this. And one of the most involved ones that I did, which paid more money than the other ones for obvious reasons, is that I got electrode strapped to me and I had to wear headphones. And then I was, I watched like, I think like 15 or 20 minutes of Il Postino,

with the subtitles on. And we established this was years after that movie. Yeah, years after I don't know how they ended up. They landed on Ilpostino. And then every once in a while, I would hear a loud noise in the headphones or I would get a mild electric shock. And then afterwards. And they never...

And then they were like, go home. I think they did then quiz me about details in the movie. So I think the idea was that it was supposed to affect, like how much this destruction affected my ability to follow the opening of the film. Yeah. So I was able to find multiple references to the use of Il Postino as a film used in psychological experiments. No. But the only experiment that I could find that was sort of close was one called orbido frontal cortex and dynamic filtering of emotional stimuli, which was performed at the University of California, Berkeley.

Not far from where you're from. This is true. I think that you may have been in a mirror experiment because it sounds very similar. Let's see. The set of auditory stimuli consisted of 144 environmental sounds, train whistle, dog bark.

Each sound was unique and thus was presented only once during the experiment. Alice, the size of all back in her head. I just want to tell you. To maintain a relatively constant level of arousal, the subjects watched a movie

with the audio off Eel Postino with subtitles during stimulus presentation. We obtained EEG recordings with electrodes placed on three midline scalp locations. But they don't say shock, do they? I don't think they say shock.

And it says that after the experiment, if either Angela Lansborough or Meryl Streep called anybody and said a certain set of words, they would assassinate a president. Or they would become a film critic. It was like a horrifying side effect of this. Yeah. And that's why they wiped the experiment

from the records after that, because they were like, what have we done? Anyway, I just thought you would maybe be interested to know that you were part of a long tradition of Il-Postino relations. I mean, I think, like, the great relief is just that I wasn't participating in someone's, like, highly specific kink, you know? You know, like, it was weird afterwards. They were like, this is in a basement, and then he has to take pictures of my feet.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, to feel like there's actual academic backing here. I would like to get to the bottom of what the reasoning for that particular movie, because that's pretty random, even in their early 2000. I just like it. Maybe, like, maybe psych departments across the nation. They were like, it's a sexy element to it. And maybe the other language element is part. of this sort of cognitive thing.

I don't know, but that's fascinating. I wish I had done that. Thank you. I appreciate your... Validated. This is your life. It's a bit of my backstory. Yeah.

Now, 30 years from now when some girl shows up to ask you about your life experience is like, well, it all goes back to this one moment. What are we doing next week? Oh, so we're going to get on an SAS flight from South Paulo

all the way up to Oslo where we're going to be talking about sentimental value. The last of our two. not-ex language features. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to have a special guest

for that, which is very exciting. Is that one streaming? You can rent it at the $9.99 level. So I think it's worth it. Maybe watch it with a couple people, you know, split up the cost, but if you want to. But yeah, we'll be doing that.

And then if you're doing your homework, doing your math at home, that will leave two more movies to talk about before we get to the Oscars, which we would argue are the two biggies. But, yeah. So we'll see you here next week. Critical Darling's is a blank check production in association with Vulture.

Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Anne Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jean.