Blank Check with Griffin & David - Critical Darlings: Train Dreams, And Netflix’s Quest For Best Picture

Episode Date: January 29, 2026

On today’s show, Richard and Alison hop on a boxcar and stare wistfully as the 20th century passes them by with Best Picture nominee Train Dreams. They discuss director Clint Bentley’s lush, if somewhat sanded-down take on Denis Johnson’s novella about a lumberman haunted by his past, starring a very quiet Joel Edgerton. Train Dreams is one of Netflix’s Best Picture nominees this year, but the film was not an original production. It was acquired by the streamer at last year’s Sundance Film Festival. On the occasion of this year’s festival (which is happening as we speak) we also discuss how Sundance works, and what, exactly gives a movie that ineffable Sundance flavor we have come to associate with small-scale American indies like Little Miss Sunshine.  We also discuss Netflix’s seemingly endless quest to win Best Picture, why the Academy is so resistant to giving them the big prize, and why the most popular streamer in the world is so desperate for Academy validation in the first place. Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the award season conversation. One contender at a time. Please welcome to this stage, your hosts, Richard Lawson and Allison Wilmore. Thank you, as ever, Marie, for that lovely introduction. Although, I feel like this whole episode should be voiceover. Yeah, we can just sit here quietly. Ma'Marie and very poetic lilting. Yeah.

our lives and our interior. But, you know, in a way that's, it's touching. Yeah, it feels poetic. Yeah, that's podcast magic, I think, is when the host just don't talk. Yeah, well, so we're going to talk about train dreams this week because, you know, it is a Best Picture nominee. It's the other surprise, I would say. Yeah. Like, it made, not totally unexpected, but, like, it was a long shot for Best Picture.

I think so. I think that one thing that about this movie that is worth getting into, is like its arc from its premiere at Sundance almost a year ago to a Best Picture nomination and a couple other nominations because that's not a unique story. Sundance has had a presence in awards for a long time, but you also add the Netflix of it all

and Netflix bought this movie and it wasn't one, you know, they had a bunch of like homegrown movies that, one of which performed well at nominations last week. But Train Dreams, I don't know, it seems to represent a certain kind of Best Picture nominee that I can't tell if that's a dying breed or just a breed that's here to stay. The kind of scrappy indie. The little Sundance movie that could.

Yes. That gets swept up in a bigger narrative somehow and they're just kind of riding this wild wave, you know. And, you know, there have been years recently where there has been no movie that came from Sundance nominated. but it's actually pretty rare that that happens within the last, like, I don't know, this century, basically. Yeah, you know, the funny thing about Sundance is that I feel like in the larger Oscar narrative that we've talked about before of like them, this feeling that like these smaller movies are coming in and getting these big nominations and that has led to a feeling of increased irrelevance. Now suddenly the Sundance movies are the kind of more crowd-pleasing or accessible ones and it's the Cannes movies where you're like, this is internet. national film. It is often like a genuine art house film. It is going to be like much more challenging in terms of its choices. That is like now like the force that we're seeing shape a lot of

the Oscars. And now suddenly like the Sundance pictures are looking like the kind of C for bats in terms of that that sentiment of like worrying about accessibility. And I think that reflects a festival that is still important, but has lost maybe some of its like white hot relevance. You know, they could gain that back. So we're talking. We're leading with Sundance Talk because I'm currently there. Isn't that weird? That is weird. It's spooky.

Through the magic of things. When you are watching or listening to this, I'm actually in Utah. Isn't that weird? And this is a big year for the festival. It's their last year in Park City. They're home for 40 plus years. They're moving to Boulder next year for various reasons, I think, mostly come down of money.

Yeah. And I think it's arriving at a time when people are sort of not really sure what a Sundance movie is. Is it the quirky comedies you think of? I mean, everyone thinks that, like, Juno premiered at Sundance. It didn't premiere to Toronto. But movies like that, because Little Miss Sunshine was sort of similar. That did premiere. It went on to a Best Picture nomination and a win, right, for Alan Arkin. But being on the ground there for the past decade

plus, I have felt the festival sort of straining to figure out what kind of movies it should be showcasing. People who are going to the festival are like, what am I expecting here? And it's interesting that the last, you know, two really big, like, well, relatively speaking, Sundance to Best Picture nominee conversions have been trained dreams and past lives, movies that I could easily have seen premiering at Cam. Sure. You know, they feel a little bit more cinematic and poetic than I think of a Sundance movie being. Yeah, they're not like Happy Texas, right? Right. They're not what we often associate with Sundance for better and worse, which has been these kind of very quirky, offbeat, but still like fairly crowd-pleasing, scrappy movies that, you know, kind of like are a little saucy, but are ultimately heartwarming.

And I feel like, no, past lives and train dreams aim for something else. They're like Un Certain Regard movies, you know, like the Cannes Sidebar. You know, I think about being at Sundance, I guess it would have been in 2015 and going to the Eccles, the big high school auditorium, which is the big theater where things screen there. And sitting down for a screening, the premiere of Brooklyn, the John Crowley movie with Sirs-Roman. And I was like one of two press people that I knew there, which is rare because you think it was a big, there must have been something cooler at the library, which is the somewhat smaller. room that premieres like, you know, eighth grade and things like that, cool things like that. And I was like, I guess I kind of get it, though, because Brooklyn, which is this stately period, sweet period, romance, you know, whatever, it doesn't feel very Sundancey.

And yet that was the movie that year that really, like, took it all the way to the Oscar. Yeah. I mean, there are often also, I don't think that this is where Brooklyn premiered, but, like, the international sections at Sundance are often, like, just vastly ignored, right? Even though they have, like, yielded, occasionally very talked about movies. We think about Sundance as much as we can think about it still and try to figure it out as like the place for American independent film. I'm part of the reason that I have like not,

I am not in Utah right now as we speak. You're here. I'm here and you're in Utah. I'm not here. That I haven't really pushed to go much in the last few years because I've just felt like when I, when I've been to Sundance lately or looked over the lineup, it's been like, man, American independent film is down bad lately.

Well, I mean, if I can speak candidly, there are times in recent years where I'm like, I'm sitting here in the Eccles watching Tribeca movies. Why am I watching Tribeca movies at Sundance? To explain, like, Tribeca, it comes after Sundance. And so the thinking about that festival is it gets the kind of dregs that Sundance didn't pick up or South by didn't pick up. And I just don't think that the amount of independent American films are being made

to like that Sundance can like skim off the top, you know, they're kind of having to dig a little deeper. Yeah, and I think that a lot of American independent filmmakers who are making work that like feels maybe more off-feed or like maybe more like kind of artistically or thematically ambitious, they often end up like you said like going divine for a slot at can or lacrano or like these European festivals that feel like they anoint your film with this like seriousness that Sundance at this point doesn't. I mean like there was a time a few years ago I was watching mostly like remotely watching some of the films and I was just like I feel like so many of the films that Sundance are just

like calling cards now to be like give me. me an Apple original series or, you know, like, put me in the mix for directing, like, whatever installment of the latest franchise. I just want to buy a house and those feel is. Yeah. Or, like, I just want to be a commercial director. Here is me making a movie that was made on the relative cheap, but, like, shows off my commercial instincts.

Yeah. And I feel like that's one of the reasons it just doesn't feel that interesting. That and the fact that other movies I saw would be like, everybody's like, it feels like it was made by a creative director on sabbatical. And, like, which is to say, it feels like someone's personal enrichment project, rather than like, oh, this is something that, like, was fighting to get out. Like, I, you know, like, this is an idea that, like, I've been stuck with. It's more, it has more felt like it would be such a nice thing for me to do to make an independent film, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So you can just, you can just watch these movies, like, virtually now? Some of them. So, since the pandemic, they introduced an online platform, basically, so they could, so the 2020 festival happened in person. That was, like, promising young woman. Minari, a couple other big eventual Oscar players, partly because the rest of the season, the year got fucked up. And so Sundance benefited from the fact that, like, well, everyone saw our movies in the real way. So they introduced an online thing. And then in 2021, because of like the Omicron or the Delta variant, they had to cancel the in-person festival very last minute. So like I took a huge bath on like my Airbnb, which was non-refundable, whatever. And that was when the online platform really became sort of, you know, It was really put into place that year, and the festival made a ton of money from it. Yes.

Oh, yes. So you can just get, like, a ticket for the virtual. You can buy virtual tickets, yes. So it's basically double, tripling their sales. So not everything goes on, like, is digitally available. And also, like, it should be said, I think they, like, they sell a limited amount of tickets, like virtual tickets. And they try and make it. So it's not just like, oh, this is the equivalent of getting dumped on streaming.

Now no streaming thing will want to buy. You know, like... There's demand. Yes. They want to... So they try and limit it. They try and make it to feel like... Like, yeah, it is like...

You know, they're both like... Touting it for, like, greater accessibility for people who cannot make it to the extravagantly expensive to attend Sundance Film Festival. But also, there is this, like, weird strata that forms, which is, like, if you are in a competition, you have to be available digitally. That's part of the roles of Sundance. But if you are, say, past lives, you know, like the A24 film, which already had A24 as a distributor, you were going to go in as like a premiere screening

or whatever their designation is. Non-competition. Non-competition. So you get the showcase at the festival, but you don't have to put your film online because there's no benefit for you. You're like going to be, this film's going to be released in theaters.

And as last year showed, there's a potential real serious downside. Right. So like, twinless, which is a film that, we both like, you're a huge fan of this film with Dylan O'Brien.

And then also Selena I Los Dinos, the Selena, documentary. Both of those were pirated by like they, I mean, both of them, I think, like, speaking to, like, the enormous fan bases that, like, you know, have, like, interest in them. But, like, TwinList, what they, like, people, um, clipped the Dylan O'Brien sex scenes and just put them online. And I apologize for that. Just you're like, those were for private use. Those were for private use. They were intended for private use. Um, I thought Twitter was private. Yeah. When I uploaded it. Often the case, uh, downfall of many has come from that. Uh, and then the Selena talk is just like, you know, there's obviously still. Huge. Enormous. Yeah. But yeah, I think, I mean, you could certainly... And that affected Salus for Twinless for sure. Are you? Yeah. Like that was one of the bigger hits at the festival, but it didn't sell forever because I think a lot of potential distributors are like, well, it's already online. Yeah. So now, Ben, this year, they've scaled it way back. And so the competition films are still on the online platform, but almost nobody else is willing to go on there.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it creates like a weird burden on the competition films where you are. are going to be, as much as they've taken all of these precautions to try and stop piracy from happening, you are more exposed. And your film will have had a life online long before, you know, you necessarily have distribution. So, like, I think, like, it is one of the benefits of having an in-person only event, which is, like, you know, this whole other window that films count on, which is your digital release eventually, is not imperiled. Yeah, and it affects the buzz weird. I don't want to imply that, like, there aren't still good things that happen in Sunday. Like, I really like TwinLess.

I really liked I had legs. If I had like kick you, that was their life. They're really doing well in documentaries, the perfect neighbors nominated, you know. But Sundance, I think, really has to fight to rebuild its sense of occasion and exclusivity. And the online thing, while a necessary function of the pandemic, I think should have stopped immediately when, like, vaccines went out. But the problem was the institute was making too much money. enough of it. Right. And then they had such a good narrative of being like, this is about

accessibility. And you're like, but it's just another means. And then if they scale it back, then a lot of people who had saw Sundance movies for the first time are like, wait, all of a sudden now you're taking it away for me. And so they created this real PR problem in addition to a financial problem. And it's just a festival at

a lot of different crossroads. And I'm sure they're very happy in some sense that like train dreams managed to like cut through all of that and like sustain itself from January to January to end up with like some Oscar attention. Yeah. What, okay, so aside from Coda, what would you say are some of the most famous movies, like best picture contenders that have come from Sundance?

That is a great question. There have been a lot. Do you associate, let's say. Yes. Okay, so Minari, that feels like very sundancey to me. The father. Do you associate that with that? Yes, because I saw it there.

Yes. And I like stumbled out of the echoes. was like, Anthony Hopkins is going to win best actor. And I guess I was right eventually. But, but no, again, the father, why was that there? That's a, that's a Venice movie. Yes. Right? Yes. But for whatever reason they decided that like, well, you know, look, there's a simple reason why they do this. Oftentimes the movies need to be sold. Yes. And Sundance is a huge buyer's market. But, but, yeah, so the father, sort of. Call me by your name. 100%. I'll tell you why. Yes. that was at Sundance in 2017. There were two things happening. It didn't stop snowing for four days. Like, it was just relentless.

So you're slogging through at one point, like, almost, like, thigh-high snow. And January of 2017, I don't know if you remember this, but a certain president was sworn in. Oh, yeah. During, like, right at the beginning of the festival, there was a women's march on Main Street that I tried to get to. I was in a bus stuck in crazy snowstorm traffic. and eventually we gave up. And everything just felt really dark and, like, scary and, like, hard to navigate because of the snow and, you know.

And then, like, I think it was, like, a 9 p.m. premiere at the Eccles, like, on, you know, I think the Saturday. I just went into that to see Comemer Bear your name and felt like I was, like, thawing out both physically from the snow and, like, emotionally and mentally. And so that is a cherished Sunday's memory. Do you know who was at that January 2017 Women's March? Cool. Harvey Weinstein?

That's a tracks. Sure. David? Yes. This episode is brought to you by Mooby, the global film company that champions great cinema. It champions it. Unlike the others. No, they...

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There's a movie star movie now streaming on Mooby in the U.S. covered on blank check soon. Well, I think that's the headline. Yeah. Die My Love. Yes. You're going to need to watch it if you want to keep up with the show. True.

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That's M-U-B-I-com slash blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free. Can I ask what makes something a Sundance movie

as opposed to a Venice movie? Like you talk about these things as though they have like specific characters. Like give me what makes a Sundance movie a Sundance movie. Yeah.

I mean I feel like what makes a Sundance movie a Sundance movie beyond its Americanness usually is that It tends to, yeah, like have a bit of a like conventional arc underneath layers of kind of quirkier trappings. That for me is one of the main things. One of the reasons we're like, you know, like Brooklyn, you know, was a Sundance movie, but it doesn't really feel like a Sundance movie.

Whereas Manchester by the Sea feels like a Sundance movie and was a Sundance movie. Small American, you know, autort driven, which all. most festival movies are Artour-driven, but like, but American, yeah, the American-ness of it, I think is big.

Um, I also think that there's, uh, they have people who come back, you know, with every subsequent movie they do, you know, some of them migrate to other festivals,

but like, it's hard to say, Ben, it's, it's a bit like porn. I know it when I see it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Well, I think an interesting case is like, like, like, Wiplash, right? Sure. That's a 2014 Sundat's movie. And it feels to me like a very 2014

Or like a Sundance movie. But also, I feel like if that movie were to premiere this year, it would be at, like, Venice. It would not be at Sundance. Yeah. You know? I think, but I think Whiplash also had something that was, had qualities that were very Sundance, which is that the main one being that people knew who J.K. Simmons was because he was a character actor. But no one, like, knew. I mean, a lot of people didn't know his name.

Miles Teller, nobody knew who that was, really. And Damien Chazel, no one knew who that was. And so it was a discovery. And people when they're at Sundance in particular really like to come down from the mountaintop being like, well, have I got the film and the filmmaker and the star for you? You know, like I discovered something strange and rare up in the mountains. And that can be complicated over the years when like suddenly Taylor Swift is premiering her Netflix documentary there. And big, big movie stars are doing movies with big directors at Sundance. It stopped feeling like this organic indie.

discovery machine and like just promo and sales. I think it also like it no longer is a place that exists kind of as a counterpoint to mainstream commercial studio as much as like whatever that means these days. I mean, now it is just feeds into it, you know. I mean, I was looking back at the 2010, these two 2010 films, one of them, classic to your point, Winter's Bone, right? Starring a baby face Jennifer Lawrence, a breakout role. From a director, people were not that familiar with.

She had one film prived. And just like also a terrific thriller that also was like set in, you know, like this kind of, in the Ozarks. It was like about this kind of slice of America that you don't want to see on screen. Yes, very much. Exactly. It was and, and I mean, for better and for worse, a lot of Sunday's movies also are like, look at poverty. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Americana poverty.

Yes. Dale Dickey being involved makes it a Sunday episode of a Sunday movie. Yeah, yeah. She's one of the main requirements. element, yeah. Another one. She is, in fact, did a Sundance movie this year. Don't work.

Or the kids are all right. A movie with big movie stars. But that is also about like, you know, like both, it's about a lesbian couple. It's about sex, you know, like, it is like. It's funny. It's also a little serious. Yeah. It is like a family dromedy, which is like a classic Sundance thing.

But it is about topics and like with elements that feel more kind of grown up, Things that, like, mainstream Hollywood would not necessarily be willing to tackle, certainly, in 2010. So I feel like those are your classic Sundance type of movies. The political statements are less sweeping maybe than you'd see it can where, like, whole movies or allegories for, like, the Romanian government, you know, like, quirky, smaller, a lot, very American-focused. That's a Sundance movie. Now the question is, is Train Dreams a Sundance movie? It does not. I mean, technically, yes, it is.

Yeah, no, I mean, like, yeah, it was at Sundance. Yeah, it, that's a good. question because it does not feel it does feel to me like something that I'd be more likely to see except that I will say this yeah um I like this movie okay I do not like it I think as much as you do no I don't care for it at all you you loat this movie I really don't like this movie interesting okay I think it's fine I think it is like it is very safe with its it's kind of characters right like it is like I think for all that it is trying to be a sweeping story of like changing America over like decades through this one guy who was just like a cog in the machine

that it is like very kind of like inoffensive. It like sweeps away. A lot of the kind of like darker or weirder stuff that happens. It happens. He observes it. He does not participate, right? I don't know in a weird way. You know what this makes me think of is the Luca Guadino film Queer.

Say more. Yeah. So where he was like, I read this William Burroughs novel when I was a teenager. It was hugely meaningful to me as a gay man. Like, it was, like, this, like, kind of one of these early, like, formative experiences, like, with, you know, like, queer literature, and it was, like, influenced me, blah, blah, blah. But then also was, like, no, this is a sweet love story. Like, this is not a movie.

Like, this is not a movie about a guy paying teenagers for sex and, like, you know, doing smack in Mexico City. It is actually, like, an misunderstood love story. Yeah. And it was like, no, I don't think it, like, whatever, you can do what you want. you were adapting this, right? But I was just like, I felt like it was someone trying to be like, I love this work, but also I need to sanitize it or like make it into something that is gentler and less spiky.

prettier. Yeah. And I feel like Train Dreams is like a gentle, inoffensive movie that also, I think, it feels like it sands off like all of the, like, spikier stuff that is in the novel, but also like that is just like, that could give you anything to kind of like, stick to this character.

And it stands that down for the sake of a sort of like homey but elevated profundity about like the human condition and life in America that I think the first time I saw this movie, I thought it was fine and I liked the ending because it's a wistful pretty ending. I watched it again because I was doing some like Q&A stuff for them. And I was like, okay, for whatever reason on the third viewing, I was like, I'm now really not feeling this. It's not, it's the opposite of growing on you. Yeah. And I think what I kind of located was that, like, you know, the filmmaker, Clintly, he's a really nice guy. I think he has definitely, like, clear talent, like, visually and all that. So I'm not, not describing him when I say the following.

But, like, it just feels so straight guy with the cool haircut and desert boots and a flannel over shirt waiting in line for a flat white in Echo Park. Like, but talking about this. this earthy time he spent out in the woods, like, connecting with, like, you know, logging, workers back, you know, like, it just feels, it feels kind of air stats and a bit like posery. And, and that's probably really uncharitable to say. But I just, this movie feels so faky to me. And I think that part of that is because those edges are sanded down. Yeah.

I mean, so I should also point out that Clint Bentley and Greg Queedar are this kind of filmmaking team. They switch off directing. Like Mona Fast Folden. Exactly. They're not as far as I know married, but like maybe, you know, give them time. But yeah, so like Greg Kuitar directed Sing Sing, which was kind of in the mix the other year. And, and, yeah, so which is like, I think why also they feel, uh, Sing Sing was premiered at Toronto. But like, they feel very in this festival, particular slice of festival, you know, is like they've been working. Sing Sing not premiering at Sundance is crazy.

Why wasn't that at Sunday? I know. It feels like an incredible. Yeah. They made jockey before that, which was at Sundance in 2021, with Clifton Collins. So they've been working in this realm of trying to do kind of like slightly more elevated, I guess, like, in terms of just like production value in terms of like. But like still like pretty classic Sundancey stuff. Like right?

Like kind of, like nothing, I would say the push is too hard. Sort of cool. inspirational. Not like corny inspirational, but like uplifting in a way, positive. I do also kind of think that like God lover, but like the writer, Chloe Zhao's movie, the writer really got in people's heads. And now a lot of people want to make that movie. Yes. And there was a movie that was at Sundance last year or something. What's the one with the horse riding family? East of Wall. East of Wall. I watched that and I was like, okay, you can't just do the Chloe thing. Right, right.

You know, you can just repeat the formula. Yeah. Like, it doesn't really work. And I'm not saying that that's what train dreams or jockey or whatever are doing exactly. Right. I mean, this does, like train dreams, to distinguish them does is filled with professional actors, right, as opposed to. And it's based on, like, you know, literature. Yes.

Yeah. Hey, Ben from the Future here. We're going to talk about the plot of train dreams now. If you don't want to hear any of that, you can skip forward 12.5 minutes. Or you can just, you know, go watch it. It's out there. on Netflix. I read the novel

like very histly so the novella to kind of like but like I have read a few pieces that I thought were interesting I didn't feel like I dwelt on the novel

enough to really form an opinion on this but like who felt like the problem with this movie is that it misses the point of the source material and I'm like

I don't want to hold that against something because sometimes you're you could be yes like trying to do something totally different like your project is your project

but I do feel like in making so much this movie about him mourning his wife and child, as opposed to them being like one element in this other one. You know, like, it becomes like very conventional in that sense. It becomes something that like is the core of like half of the Christopher Nola movies at least, which is like my job is taking me away from my face.

Are you saying that a lot of art recently has been a meditation on grief? Perhaps too much art? Also about being torn. between your work slash maybe your calling and then, you know, the family that... This is basically interstellar. Exactly. I think one of the deviations from the novella is that the Joel Edrigan character is more involved in the killing of the Chinese immigrant at the beginning of the story. And in the movie, he's sort of witnessed to it.

Yeah. And the way that he's haunted after the fact by that event would make a lot more sense if he was somehow complicit. Yeah. Like I think that the movie would like him to is worried about making him too unlikable, even if it would be, say, period appropriate for him to be like, oh, we're going to go lynch this guy. I think he helps carry him. Yes. I don't think he throws him over the edge. He like grabs his legs.

But then it keeps being like, what did he do? What did he do? You know, like it does make it feel much more like he was just happened to be there. And his like guilt came from not intervening, you know? Right. As opposed to being like, oh, we helped try and, you know, kill this guy who I think in the novel he escapes, he runs away. So like there is also this like possible threat, right, like of someone coming back. But yeah, like I think that, I think the kind of like, like both of these things are front loaded too.

like the he runs into a guy um like i i think like uh just someone who's riding the rails who is like um got his like leg cut and is dying and gives him some what and like that's clifton collins and that's like just like a weird flicker of a moment like this almost hallucinatory thing in the beginning montage and then yes but like i think that like these like more jagged and i think that character in the book or this novella like was a child molester or something like they take away some really dark details he confesses that he molested his niece who got pregnant and then her dad

beat her to try and make her miscarry and she died. Right, so really dark heavy stuff. Yeah. Or like I think he has like a friend who in the movie he has a friend who runs a store. I think in the book that character is like more just like a guy who dies horribly through this kind of random incident the first time he gets drunk and like yeah like these are like much darker fragments that also, I think, like, the ways in which they affect this character

are feel, like, kind of, like, less clear and interesting, whereas I think in the, in the movie, you just get this sense that he is kind of, he is gliding along, but maybe he's haunted a bit, right? That's it. Like, his main quality is feeling haunted. Quietly haunted. Yes. And I feel like the idea of being, like, this, like, pebble being thrown into this enormous

rushing stream of kind of, like, industrial change. And history does not come through as much because it is sort of just about a guy sad about his family. And it sort of mythologizes a period of American, you know, history that, like, yes, was progress, but also, like, brutal and violent, like all American progress tends to be. And I think you really lose, you lose the more profound meeting on the positive side if you don't have the negative. Because I think this movie just kind of, like you said, floats along. It has this beautiful ending that is very reminiscent of, like, 20th century women's. I mean, both end in biplanes with a narrator talking about the end of their life and whatever. That is, we're speaking to the smallness of his life, but the profundity of that smallness,

but also the profundity of his just tiny part in the bigger, like, broader swirl of history in American ecosystem. But you're like, but I don't really, what are you tethering this to? Like, I don't feel like there's any event, even in some ways the death of his wife and child, significant enough to sort of earn this big profundity at the end that I think on my first, first two viewings, I was like, no, like, that's enough. The ending is powerful enough that I think the whole movie has sort of can stand on its own. And I just don't know if I feel that anymore. I don't want to come down hard on the movie because I do think it is well-intentioned. I just think it handles stuff with kid gloves where, especially right now, given what America is

both revealing of itself currently, but also of its past, it's just like, we don't, like, let's be a little more honest about where we are and where we live. Yeah. I, I, So why do you think this movie got traction? Is it because it feels like it's nice? I think the ending, honestly. I think it looks great. I think Will Patton's voiceover is like selling that movie really well, you know. Yeah.

And I think that at Sundance last year, you had, if I had legs, which was completely off-putting to so many people at the festival, just as many people liked it. Yeah. But diddo twin list, which, you know, had gay. sex scenes and blah blah blah. And then you start to kind of pick away at the other highlights. Sorry baby, you know, was maybe not. What I'm saying is I think a lot of straight guys really liked it. That's fair. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It also, I mean, it has like, like, yes, like dad angst, which I think is something that does seem to keep going over well. Can we talk about Edgerton a bit? Because he feels like one of those guys that has just been around forever, but like never gotten the role.

though I don't know I have a personal favorite as your turn role but is there something for you that stands out otherwise for a well I just want to remark on his completely normal career

I mean so many actors have been in train dreams directed boy erased co-written a Shakespeare adaptation for Timothy Shalama like his career is so oh also been in the great Gatsby he's had such a weird career

both in front of and behind the camera but I'm curious what you're what you think was also going to mention he produced the plague which was like a great movie that just kind of got dropped into nowhere.

Like, unfortunately, just came out at the worst possible time. Like, I got a Christmas release. But it's like a kind of the better movie about kind of like, crowd bullying, kids bullying each other with this, about a disease at Cannes this year,

much less high profile than Alpha. But, yeah, and he produced that and is in it. And you're like, oh, that's interesting. Like, he made this happen for like a first-time filmmaker. He just spotted talent. No, I think the best edge of him role is clearly warrior. Talking about straight male angst, I love warrior.

People upstage are agreeing with you, also. I know, I love. Warrior is a great movie. I've talked someone into watching it recently who was like, yeah, you're right. But it's, he, even in that, he plays like the less flashy guy, right? Yeah. Like Tom Hardy is there with no neck. He looks like he's built like a minotaur.

He's like so and is like, comes in, like, rushes in to fights and like beats people bloody in like two seconds and then rushes off again. And then meanwhile, you have Joel Edgerton as like, the high school teacher who is, like, getting back into MMA because he's underwater on his mortgage, you know? Right. He is almost always the more regular guy or the kind of, like, more unassuming guy. And in this movie, he is playing an unassuming guy that is, like, kind of definitionally, like, this guy who leaves no trace, right? Like, at the end, it's like he had left no heirs. He had no family.

Nature literally just reclaims him, like, as if he never existed. He becomes, like, a, yes, like a fertilizer bed at the end. Like Stephen King and the creep show. Exactly. But in a poetic way. In a beautiful, pristinely framed and lit way. Yeah. So, I mean, like, is there something funny about the fact that it, like, just like, this is the role that this is happened, like, kind of like, I mean, he did not get the nomination, but like this is the role that's like happened for him?

I think it's one of those things where you need a, you need a familiar face to take you through this sort of like wandering sort of dreamy thing, you know. He's a good person to sort of like have lead you through that. Everyone has seen him in something and probably liked him in that thing, you know. It is funny that like this Australian guy is playing this American every man, but like whatever. That's the era we live in. He's done it a few times now. He's kind of one of our go-to everyone. Yeah.

But I don't know, because I tend to think of him as sort of more menacing, but Great Gatsby, Animal Kingdom. Sure, sure. You know, he wrote and directed this, written, he wrote and direct this movie called The Gift in 2015, where Well, there's sort of a twist in that movie that I won't spoil, but like he's kind of playing a creep in that. So to see him like softer, gentle teddy bear, I mean, he played a great fall staff in the King, the Timothy Shaliena movie I alluded to. Yeah, he makes sense because he's, he is sort of the actor equivalent in this of like the flannel over shirt worn at the Echo Park Cafe. Yeah, no, that's true. It's also, it's funny because you're like, this is a role that requires someone to be like, to not give you a lot.

You know, like he, I think he is compelling. Like, he holds his screen. As you said, he barely talks in this movie. And he does not feel like he knows what's going on much or has much control of his life. Nor does he care to. Yeah. Really? Right.

Like the idea of having, I mean, that's, I think, the most interesting part about this movie to me is the idea of grappling with the idea of feeling like you have no, not even you have no agency, which I mean, also you could argue is like a much more contemporary expectation. But like, that you, the idea. of even occurring to you that you could have agency is gone, you know? Like, you do you just take life as it comes to you on a moment to moment. Yeah, I mean, maybe in some ways he's, he represents like, the sort of final generation of

like pre, like, New Deal, pre-union people who were like, oh, I'm just part of, I just get an honest wage and But also like, you know, clock out, you know, like, when guys get like stuff dropped on them or they have to keep working, they're like, you have no power to be like, nope. Just nail his boots to the tree. Exactly. You're like, whoops. Yeah.

That branch just killed you. I mean, there are interesting things in the movie. I feel bad that I said I really didn't like it. No, I appreciate it. Yeah, I just like, there's just something about it. That's hair of this delicate independent film apart. Right. I know.

This well-intentioned genuinely from nice people like who I've met. Like, I went to a dinner like with them in Savannah. And that was back when I was more positive on the movie, I think. But like they were all very nice and earnest. And I like that. And I like that, like, of all of the sort of bigger, flashier things that Netflix had this year, that Train Dreams is the. one that sort of stuck it out alongside Frankenstein all the way.

Can I say something just nice about train dreams? Yes. I think the score in this movie is really, really lovely. Yeah. It's by Bryce Desner, who is one of the members of the National. Speaking of like flannel-clad, indie rock. I'm telling you I'm on to something. Yeah.

But I don't know. What set this movie apart from like other kind of malice? You know, visually dense movies is that the score really has a pulse to it. I don't know. It keeps the movie moving in a way for me. Yeah, no. The aesthetics in the movie, like all of the technicals are really, really great. And I should say, Ben, if you like Bryce Desner's score for this, have you seen the Mike Mills film, Come On, Come On. No, no, I haven't. Okay, that's A, a beautiful movie. B, the score for that is something. If I, if I need a cry, I put that on. I put the last little selection from that. soundtrack on, so you should listen to it. He's an incredible composer. I love his work. I wish he worked for him. David?

Yes. Let me put this into a language that you'd understand, because you don't wear glasses. No, I don't. No, sometimes a sunglass. Whatever you. Never an eyeglass. Some big, strong, tall guy with perfect vision.

2015, baby. Listen, some of us used to have to engage in an experience that was like the worst of slow cinema. Trying to pick out a new pair of glass. It was an impossible tedious process that made you ask, is there a point to this? Yeah, it does sound quite irritating. But since I made the switch to Warby Parker, a big switch in my life that has changed the last decade of my life, I've become basically a Warby Parker absolutist. And you probably lose a pair of glasses every other week.

That's not true. That's actually not true. Okay, I'm so sorry. I usually find them. After a while. But the experience of picking out new glasses with wards. Orby Parker. It's just like a quibby or two.

It seems... Do you understand how I converted this to your language? Yeah, and it costs a micro black hat. Oh my God. Ella McKay actually might be the new black hat. Glasses shopping used to be, and Ben can back me up on this. Yes. So complicated and overpriced.

Overcomplicated and overpriced. Dang. I'm trying to buy glasses. I don't want to feel like I need a spreadsheet to understand what's going on. Spreadsheets are what we use for this podcast. not glasses shopping. But at Warby Parker, they have their specialists there. It's so easy to try on pairs to browse the website, do virtual try-on,

to see how they look on your face. Which I love. Love that. Right. You take a little pick and then it shows you what it looks like on the face. Live time. Live tracking. It's like seeing the piece of furniture in your room. Right.

Yes. And glasses are the furniture of the face. They are. They're the windows of the face because the eyes are the windows. To the soul. That's right. To the soul. So that it's like,

all right. Drapes on the window. What are you wearing right now? What am I wearing right now? It's hot. Oh. Yes. Okay.

And dare I say it? They're hot. They're pretty. You're not supposed to take it out of my mouth. That was my line that I was teed it up. And then you stepped in front me with a little ball bat. Tortish out, perhaps. I've never won prescription Morby Parkers.

I have worn many a sunglass, though. And they do have nice sunglasses. I always get compliments. Well, well, well. They are always like, I'm not going to give you one now. You're not wearing them. No, I would be a little obnoxious to wear sunglasses and doors. You can always tell they're really well-made.

They're solid. They don't just like fall apart on you. No. And they're also, these prescription classes start at $95. So if they were to break a thing I have not experienced often, or you were to lose them, a thing that doesn't happen to me that often. It doesn't feel like you're putting yourself into jeopardy. I also want to point out every pair that Warby Parker sells.

They also give a pair to someone in need. They've distributed over 20 million pairs of glasses to people in need through its bi-payer giver program. And they're on most eye insurance plans. So if you're eligible for that, they'll automatically apply the insurance plan to you. They have so many locations. And they're not just about glasses. They got contacts. They got online eye exams.

In-person eye exams. Look, Warby Parker gives you quality and better-looking prescription eyewear at a fraction of the going price. Our listeners get 15% plus free shipping when they buy two or more pairs of prescription glasses at Orbeeparker.com. Slash check. That's 15% off when you buy two pairs of glasses at W-A-R-B-Y Parker.com slash check. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Please.

Can we talk about the Netflix of this all a bit? Yeah. Okay. So Netflix has been trying now. And that's what is that? That's a, I get the discs in the mail. and then I send them back. You send them back, but make sure they're all scratch up first.

That's like part of my expectation. When I moved apartments most, so like five years ago, my last move, I found one Netflix DVD. It was like in a box or something. Could you ever guess what it is? Was it Asia Argento Scarlet Diva? Because that was the one I had sitting around for like several, maybe like a year without having not watched. I wish it was. That would be better.

It was a movie called The Switch that is basically centers around Jason Bates and Siemen as it pertains to Jennifer Anson. A movie I never watched, but I had the DVD for some reason forever. Yeah, I don't know if I ever watched Scarlet Diva. No, do you know what I did? Because there is, she directed it. There is a long scene in which she just puts on her own eye makeup. And I'm like, that is a tourism. I was going to say, we can co-opt the blank check Patreon and we'll do a watch along to the Switch.

and yours. Everyone will love it. But yes, the Netflix. So Netflix has been trying now for Oscars for... Since... Roma? I guess. Like, before Roma?

Before Roma. Like, it's been, I think, a solid decade at this point, right? And I do get the feeling that maybe... Like, not that they're going to stop doing this anytime soon, but maybe like a certain amount of, uh, of like, investment in this is they're starting to question. Yeah.

You know? Like they're, the, the year is in which they just did this enormous spend on a bunch of stuff, including movies that like no one expected to go anywhere.

Yeah. Like the king, say, which they did. Like, they were like, like, obligated to do a certain, like, push awards points. It was at Venice.

It was supposed to be Timmy's coronation or another one of those coronation. It did not, it did not go anywhere. But so, I don't know. In this case, we have, like,

A kind of classic Netflix situation, which is to say they had like a bunch of movies that on paper looked like they were made to win Oscars. Noah Bomback, Catherine Bigelow, you know. Oh, Edward Berger, who's all quiet. Exactly. And all of those movies turned out to be non-existent in one case. This never made Jay Kelly. No, they said they were going to. They announced it, you know.

Yeah, they never got too busy. Yeah. George Clooney. He's got a lot going on. It's got kids now. Yeah, they, the only one of this slate of movies that has got to be. traction in ways that I think still kind of surprise us is Frankenstein

of like the movies that they produce. But that's a doc, so it's different. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's got a lot of authenticity behind it. But yeah, and then train dreams which they bought at Sundance. Oh, and then K-pop Demon Hunters, which they bought off of Sony, Sony, which, who clearly

had never expected that it would become a phenomenon that it did. And I don't, maybe it wouldn't have in the same way if they had put it out like as a release, you know, And I kind of like, I don't know. Like maybe. It's, I, my hunch is that it, you know, I hate to even say this.

I think it needed the accessibility of streaming to take off the way of it. Yeah, yeah, because people kind of saw the combination of things that was promising. Kids loved it. And you can rewind and play the fucking song again. I mean, it's a fucking song. It's a great song. It's a great song. Yeah, those songs.

And at home, you can do it. And then it builds snowballs into a thing that then you're like, okay, for your 19th viewing, we're going to see it in a theater because they put it. Right. And it made a lot of money that way. It did. But yeah, like Netflix has not had a great time developing stuff in-house that has been Oscar-y. I mean, look, they have, I think I just did a count. They have 11 Best Picture nominations since 2019.

But then when you actually look, and I'm not maligning these films necessarily, you got your Manx, you got your Irishman's, you've got your trials with Chicago Sevens, you've got your, well, Amelia Perez is, your maestroes. I mean, those are movies that have their merits. I really like some of those movies. I don't hate any of those movies. Don't look up, I do hate. But they're not like, you know, the movies of that year.

Yeah. They have not really found that yet. I think Roma, weirdly, their first, came closest to that in some ways. Though also maybe Amelia Perez last year because it was the villain of that year. Yeah. Well, I think, and so Netflix has been, I mean, a kind of ongoing Oscar villain in terms of the industry, because of how they've been perceived as increasingly, as just eroding, you know, the foundations of Hollywood

and kind of pushing everyone. And also like social life in the world. Yes, right, right, about being like... They were third places, third places. Yeah, I never forget. Was it Ted Sarandos, I think, who said, like years and years ago, just a quote that is etched into my brain forever,

that Netflix's main competitor is not like the other studios. Netflix's main competitor is sleep. That is one of those things that you're like, No, keep that to the investor meeting. And they finally killed Morpheus got asleep last year. Like, don't say those things out loud. But so, so, and of course, like, Netflix this year is being set up as, like, one of two villains competing to buy Warner Brothers, you know. I feel like, I don't know that anyone is taking, like, has, like, any, like, thing to root for in that.

But, like, you have, like, Warner Brothers, which has this year of, like, having a defining year of, like, releasing these. An admirable, commendable. People should emulate the year, you know. Yeah, like, of, like, making these movies that. are made from like incredible like with real authorship that also like you know were incredible theatrical experiences and that people were talking about and that made money if not maybe as much money as some people would have liked but like like true cultural phenomenon like proof of like cinema being like alive and well and of course then the the the result you're talking about

Minecraft right of course yeah hey do you know what Minecraft kids came out to see it they were screaming chicken jockey stuff at the screen uh like that our coal production is up through the roof because of all this new miners we have in our country. But yeah, so I feel like, I don't know, how much do you think that a general, a general skepticism slash dislike of Netflix, which I mean, the Netflix's like opening gets booed sometimes when their films play at festivals. Oh, yeah. Oh, especially overseas.

Yeah. I mean, well, you don't see it at Cannes because they won't show them anymore. Yes. Because France has literal laws about what can play at Cannes. it has to be theatrical and at some point. So, and so that Netflix had one year where they had movies. It was like Okja and Meyerwitz stories and a couple other things and that was it. I mean, I, looking at their best picture nominees, I'll just read them.

Roma in 2019, well, the 2018 movie, so this is the ceremony. Yeah. Roma 2019, 2020, the Irishman, 2020 marriage story. 2021 was both Mank and Trial of the Chicago 7, a COVID year. which then Netflix benefited from 2022 don't look up and the power of the dog 23 all quiet on the western front

2024 maestro last year Amelia Perez this year train dreams looking at all of those I'm like there are maybe two Power of the Dog and Roma where those kind of were

the assumed best picture winners at some point in their seasons and then I can't help and they both won best director I can't help but think a Netflix bias ultimately made them come up short. Yeah. And I feel like that bias is only more powerful now.

You're telling me if Roma had been a focus features thing or a searchlight movie, that would not have one best picture. I think it probably would have, though. Also, remember how much money Netflix spent on Roma? Like, that is the one thing that they also... They invented a whole country called Mexico. I mean, it's crazy. It's fully canceled. I went to the party for Roma at Toronto, and it was like decked out.

It was. It was. It was enormously. Yeah. I mean, like, no one spends, like Netflix does on these things. They still, they have, like, a ability to splash out on this stuff in ways that, like, no one else does. And, I mean, I think that's a benefit, but also, I think people resent that. Like, you know, like the, like, just throwing enormous amounts, trying to, like, looking like you're trying to buy an Oscar.

Yeah. Why do they want one so badly? Because everyone wants a trophy. Everyone wants their peers to tell them they are not just really successful, but also so good at what they do. I mean, I know for a fact. And it would help attract further filmmakers. Right, right. I mean, like, they have such a kind of, they've had so much pushback from filmmakers who lately, you know, like there was such a narrative for a long time, like the accessibility narrative.

Like, oh, nothing will put you out there, like get your film out there. Like Netflix, you'll, you know, you'll be available instantly around. the world. But like the truth is, as we have seen, things on Netflix come and go really quickly. They have a much shorter, like, life in the, in the conversation with, like, rare exceptions. And also, it's just, like, a platform that suits itself to, to series, like, much more. Like, series get better, you know, do much better on their. People seem to look for them more. But I think, like, right, like, Bella Bajari, who is, like, the kind of head of, like, Netflix's original productions now, famously said in a New Yorker profile

that what they were looking to make now is the gourmet cheeseburger, right? The thing that goes down very easily but is like nicely made. And I think that you could argue whether they've actually achieved that. I feel like maybe they're aiming closer to maybe just a regular old McDonald's hamburger

at this point with a lot of their stuff at best. Maybe a microwaved white castle slider from the frozen food station. Amtrak. Cheeseburgers. Speaking of fragrance. I really like those cheeseburgers.

Oh, do you? Well, because they're a specific kind of food. I know. They're not a cheeseburger. They're an Amtrak cheeseburger. But so, like, you know, you are putting out stuff that I think a lot of people internally, even no matter how much you've drunk the Kool-Aid with regard to, like, Netflix's kind of branding and dominance, I think a lot of people will be like, yeah, I know a lot of this stuff is just slop.

So I think, like, to counter that, they really, really want to be told, like, oh, this Harlan-Cobin series that is, like, you know, has been on the top ten in streaming. It's also, like, Emmy-worthy. You know, like they really want to be told, like, the stuff that they're doing already, because it's so popular is also, like, worthy of prizes. I have heard anecdotally that they are trying to, there's a concerted effort that I think, like, something like The Beast and Me represented last fall, that, like, they're like, we need to have some TV shows that look good. Yeah. Because we're losing that, that upper tier audience of, like, snoots, you know, who are like, I'm not going to watch, you know, Georgia or whatever that show. You know, like, I'm not going to go down that level because they want to own everybody.

Right. And if they don't make stuff that is respectable and looks good and whatever in TV or film, they're going to lose a certain contingent of people to the glossier, you know, stuff. I also think that as Elon Musk teaches us, it is not enough to own everything and be the richest entity in the world. You also want to be funny. Yeah, you want to be like everyone likes me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think also, you know, like, uh, uh,

Ben and Matt, my close personal friends, you know, have just made a Netflix original movie called The Rip. That, of course, is going to be an Oscar contender next year. Best Rip. Got that sewn up. Best Joe Carnahan movie of the year. They went on Joe Rogan and they said something out loud that I feel like I've only ever seen reported but not attributed to a source, which is that they were like, yeah, you know, they were telling us, like, one, it's really good to have like a big action set piece in the first. first five minutes of the movie because, like, we need people to stick around. But two, it would be good if people could reiterate the plot a few times, like, because people are

watching while on their phones. And that is something that I feel like has existed in a place of like semi-confirmed, like, oh, we know this to be true, but like... But mostly with TV series. Yes. So to have actual, not just like, like, name people who have made this, but like, big old movie stars be like, yes, we were told that you need to say like the, what's happening in the plot more, because people might not be paying attention. In a two-hour movie. Yeah, I think that that is one of the reasons that people are very increasingly skeptical.

Is that why Joel Alderton keeps saying I'm having a train dream? Yes, exactly. And then he goes, chugget, chugget, chugged. And they did that in anticipation of being bought by Netflix. They were like, let's just make it. Also, why there's that, like, really kind of shocking

giant action set piece in the start of the movie that we never go back to. When they find the rip, yeah. Yeah, and he just shoots up so many people with a machine gun. And then we're like, and then we never talk. talk about that again. And then Felicity Jones is like, wake up, you're having a train dream.

He's like, yeah. Okay. What? No, that's so depressing and not surprising. But they're going to have to figure out a way to balance that sort of algorithmic thinking or like, like not even algorithmic thinking, but like really grim like AI understanding of human behavior, which may be accurate. Yeah. With like this other thing where they are trying to attract top tier filmmakers. They haven't, it's debatable whether they like. It's debatable whether they like. lost Scorsese because he did go to Apple. He did Irishmen with them. Then he went to Apple to do Flower Moon. But the thing about Flower Moon is it costs like 900 million to make. And even Netflix was like, I don't know about that. You know, Fincher has stayed loyal to them for the most part. They've, you know, they've can't be and probably as grateful for, you know, they got an Oscar by, you know, they didn't get her. She did. But like, but I do think when they have a year, like this year

where I don't know if I'm Catherine Bigelow I could be like why did you make my movie look like

shit or if I'm Noah Baumbach I'm like you'd marketed this wrong or it's you know

bubble you know there are ways that Netflix could be blamed for the failures

of some of its most high profile things and then also be like but wait this tiny

little movie you bought at Sundance that's the one that got Oscars so it's bad for

like attracting the A list talent in some ways but also if Netflix is a

big content sucking everything into it, this just gives them more evidence when they sit down with a filmmaker at this year's Sundance, which I currently am at, and they say, come with us, let us buy your movie, your little movie. They can be like, well, look what we did for Clint and Train Dreams. Yeah, though I also feel like there are so many counter examples where they bought something and it just plopped on there and then vanishes everything. There are tons. Right. Yeah. I always think about this filmmaker Sarah Colangelo. Do you know who that is? No.

And Netflix is probably to blame. She made a remake of the movie The Kindergarten teacher with Max. Maggie Gyllenhaal, which is an incredible performance that should have gotten all the way to Oscar nomination 100%. She's incredible. It's also a really well-made movie. Netflix buys it. It completely disappears. Sarah Colangelo's next film, a really sturdy post-9-11 drama called Worth with Michael Keaton, a great Stanley Tucci, a really good Amy Ryan, was at Sundance. It wasn't like one of the big hits at the festival, but I really liked it. Other people did, too. They buy it, completely bury it, release it a year. year and change later on September 11. Or at least around September 11. Yeah. They did that twice of the same filmmaker. Yeah. And if I'm her, I'd be drunk at, like, industry parties being like, don't go to, like, don't go to Netflix.

I mean, like, Richard Linklater, whose movie New Vilva got bought by them. Like, he, when they bought his animated film, Apollo 10 and a half. Oh, right. Right. A movie that might as well not exist. Like, you know, they dropped it on Netflix. It got no attention. at all. He, in interviews afterwards, complained about that. But then, of course, when Netflix

came around and, like, threw up, like, tens of millions of dollars or whatever on the table for Hitman, his investors were like, nope, that's what we're taking. And Hitman is a movie that I think would have had a much longer and, like, more kind of, like, storied life if it had gotten a theatrical release, a real theatrical release. Like, it played so well in the room. Especially because at Venice, yeah, I saw it at the Venice premiere and people applauded Min movie at that one big scene. Yeah. And he had done an interview for the festival that I read, I think, before I saw the movie, where he was like, I noticed that there aren't a lot of fun Saturday night date movies that. So I wanted to make, you know, hitman be that.

The presumption, the implication being you leave your house with your partner. Yeah. And then an hour later, it was like, Netflix buys it. No one's leaving their house ever again. Like, it's depressing. Like, the whole reason that movie existed was something that Netflix immediately squashed. Yes. And then this year, they bought Neuvel Vogue, one of his two movies.

And I think a really, like, fun, delightful movie. Not, not. Played well and can, if you can imagine. Yes. Yeah, somehow. Of the two of his movies this year, it was, like, maybe the least easily awardsy one, though there were, like, one or two plays they might have made. But, like, they bought it.

And it really, yes, like, again, might as well not exist. whereas Blue Moon, his other movie this year, with a very kind of like Oscar-y central performance and this it has gotten traction. Yeah. I mean, the new vlog thing is interesting because like after I saw that it can,

I was getting drinks with Kyle Buchanan and a couple other people being like, well, Netflix buys that obviously, right? Like that would be their foreign language play, whatever. And we were right. But I don't think any of us at that table would have predicted that like come post-nomination, it would have nothing.

Like, it just didn't, like, it doesn't be. The thing is also like it was not a good foreign language play because France wasn't going to pick it. France wasn't going to pick it. Right. And so, and France, you know, chose a Panaghi film. Of a movie set in France and about France. Of course.

And so, like, yeah, it really, it was a confusing pick for them. But, yeah, if I were Richard's like later, I would be like, oh. I'm so tired of having to pretend this is like a great thing where they swoop in. David? Mm-hmm. Scoop. There it is. Look, this episode's brought to you by A.G.

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So my question now would be, nominations are out. Yeah. We've got, you know, just under two months before the big show. If you're Netflix, you've got Frankenstein, who is like this big lumbering object you spent a billion dollars on. and maybe has a good chance of winning in some craft categories, maybe that's it. Do you devote all of your attention to that

or do you try to keep the train dreams flame lit? Train dream alive? Yeah, do you kind of try to shoot the train dream alive. I don't know. I think at this point, they do have like a lot of very like, like experienced, well-paid people who now are just going to have to,

only two things to focus on. Who are talented and lovely, I should add. Yes, yes, really, yeah, yeah. So I feel like. feel like, I don't know. I mean, like, I don't think they really stand much of a chance in terms of, and it is funny that, like, in terms of, like, adapted screenplay, they're competing against each other. But I don't know. This is another year where they, it's, they don't have a best picture this year. Like, and I really did think this, this summer, looking at their

upcoming slate, like, bombbacks do. White noise was just a weird little bobble. Like, you know, Jay Kelly is going to, like, do what marriage story cut in. Or it'll be campy. again or it'll be this Edward Burger film no one knows anything about or it'll be a Frankenstein if Frankenstance could and now it's like oh I don't think they have you know there's not even close and no wonder now they're trying to buy the studio

that's like eating their lunch you know it just feels very right right and I guess that's that's the interesting question then is like in a future in which that deal goes through presumably it will that do you feel like Netflix

like a Warner Brothers win under the auspices of Netflix, however they're going to start calling things? Like, I don't know. What does that look like? Like, do people still feel like they're rooting for Warner Brothers in that context?

I mean, like, super intra-industry, if there are people they know still working there, maybe. Yeah. But, like, but no, I mean, because, like, any promise that Netflix is making,

and look, Netflix puts out plenty of things I like. I don't, like, hate the company, but, like, but, you know, anything that they're putting out, like, they're not going to actually do

real theatrical releases for Warner Brothers movies for very long if they do it at all. You know, I'm sorry. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. I'll stand corrected if that actually does happen. But like, everyone knows that the erosion will happen inevitably and probably quickly, you know, and so no, I think that you kind of

lose a major player off the kind of award, a studio board when it comes to awards, yeah, for sure. One last question. Do we think that Netflix pushes hard for being like, come see train dreams at this screening? Because it does obviously play

better in a theater. Yeah, I can't even imagine. I mean, I guess maybe that's why I didn't like Train Dreams on Third Viewing because I watched it at home. Yeah. But I think they will. I think that they probably think they've got a shot in cinematography, which I don't think they're wrong.

They have the song, right? The original song got nominated. The Cave, I think, right? I mean, obviously we know what's going to win that. It's the song from Viva Verde, but Yeah, I think maybe they make a cinematography play. Yeah. And then they say to Clint Bentley, like, we'll make your next movie.

And, you know, we'll go from there. I mean, it is just funny. You're like, oh, you've just spent a billion dollars for a potential best cinematography award. Well, look, you know, that's how this thing. This world works. That's the train, baby. Get on or get on. Or just be a cog in this whole industry.

Yeah. I feel bad that I was mean about train dreams. I don't, again... You should not feel bad. I just really just smite it from above. I just have this vision of it as this kind of guy I don't like. You know? Yeah.

Not he didn't do anything particularly wrong. No, I just saw him on Instagram and I was like, I don't like you. That's it. Yeah. Critical Darling's is a blank check production, an association with Vulture. Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz.

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