Blank Check with Griffin & David - Darkman with Chris Weitz

Episode Date: April 10, 2022

Who’s Darkman? A man of a thousand faces! A walking fleshwound who probably smells awful! A dude who probably would be into night eggs! Filmmaker Chris Weitz joins us to geek out over Sam Raimi’s homage to the Universal Monsters - a film that establishes the comic book style that Raimi would later perfect with his “Spider-Man” trilogy. We discuss the early 90s run of pulpy comic book films (“Dick Tracy”, “The Shadow”), the shock of seeing Frances McDormand in what she describes as a “bimbo role,” and the unbelievably true story of how Sam Raimi swapped in his own cut of “Darkman” when the studio tried to release their own version.  Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

I'm everyone and no one. Everywhere. Nowhere. Call me Podcast Man. So, also the last line of the movie? Last line. I did an episode that won't come out for a couple of weeks. But yeah, you pulled this trick again with a future ep. Now, here's the reason why.

It's a good line. It's a good line. It's also not my favorite line in the movie. It's not my favorite line on this quotes page. The other ones I can't... I'm going'm gonna say this i'd never said this before i could not possibly disrupt the sanctity the perfection of a line such as a line like take the fucking elephant yeah it's a good line right or uh i'm sorry what's the other one here what is it maybe i should be wearing a silly little hat. That hat rules.

I took no, and I was like, tin hat rusted, good. Just a funnel. He's wearing a funnel, like the fucking tin. Yeah, I know. Ben, I mean, I feel like this is going to be a big part of this episode. I have to imagine you're whipping open the notebook and jotting down fashion ideas every scene of this. Ben, you've never seen this episode. I have to imagine you're whipping open the notebook and jotting down fashion ideas every scene of this. Ben, you've never seen

this film. No, I can't believe it. We've been hyping it up. It's extremely my shit. We've been hyping Paul and Bob. I just feel like that. A lot of rags,

a lot of wet rags and bandages. Old fucking 90s tech shit, you know. That's true. Weird wire frame. Also, just good hemstring. Good. That's four days. We were That's true. Weird wireframe. Also, just good henchmen.

That's four days. Who are swagged out. You said it right before we started recording, David. A lot of bad guys in this thing. And that sounds like a stupid statement, but then you watch the movie and you're like, this thing does. It opens with bad guys. It's like a sampler assortment

of bad guys, too, because they're all dressed a little differently. Some of them have long hair. Some of them look like your typical European mercenaries in suits. Some of them are like bald, rough ruffians. It's great. You have a man with a gun leg. Gun leg man. I want to talk about gun leg man later.

Can I just speed around a couple more lines here? Sure. You have been a very bad boy. And as IMDb says, punching on each word in brackets. Right, right, right. But here's like a line that just speaks to, I think, the skill of this movie, right?

And I will attribute this to Remy, to all his collaborators, and to Neeson knowing exactly how to thread the needle on this performance. A very specific, very difficult performance to execute properly within this movie, that this movie is able to properly sell, what is

it about the dark? What secret does it hold? Right. Yeah, you're totally right. You're absolutely right. At the same time, my question is, did it properly sell it, I guess, to a mass audience? I guess the movie did well. It did well. But were people walking out of that being like... Well, Durant was able to return a couple years later.

Durant came back. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, Durant has returned. That's what I would love to know, because I was too little to see this movie. Right. And, like, when I caught it years later, I feel like I'd probably already seen Spider-Man or at least The Evil Dead. Yeah. So I sort of knew, like, yeah, I know what Sam Raimi's

deal is right but like were people just like dark man sure what's he is he like batman let's go see it going to see it and walking out and being like i've met that was crazy or were they just like that was fun because it's it's just so tonally it's wild and it's very totally specific but just think about i think this is so much of this movie's legacy. This is this weird post-Batman run of like, we want pulp heroes, right? The radio hero. I was going to ask about that.

This is post-Burton Batman. Oh, interesting. It's very Batman adjacent. It's like, how can we get McBatman without eating the intellectual property? Because this movie came out summer 90, and the Burton comes out summer 89. But there is that weird feeding frenzy. I mean, I think Raimi wanted

to do Batman, could never get close to it. And then wanted to do The Shadow is the big part of the origin of this movie and met with them several times for that and then our old friend Bobby Z. They made the right decision because The Shadow fucking ruled when they made it. Oh, sure.

Really? Are you a figure? I'm kind of joking, not joking. the shadow fucking ruled when I made it. Sure. Really? Are you a, I don't know. Wait, Chris, I'm kind of joking. Not joking. I don't know. I don't even know what I want to just jump in on your behalf and say, like the shadow I've listened to it.

And it's like, Oh, you're saying you've listened to the, the old radio show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That shit. Like, cause like my grandpa or like, I'm pretty sure my grandpa was like you're gonna love this on the wireless your grandpa made you listen to the shadow we're astonished i would i'm i'm astonished that you have heard extensive memories of listening to countless episodes of the shadow yeah and i was like a kid with add and i just was like yeah what is this i cannot sit still so batman because it it was so like Burton doubled down on this sort of like 30s art deco pulp hero radio serial kind of vibe to it.

When that movie's successful, people aren't like more superheroes. They're like more things like this. So then it leads to Rocketeer, Dick Tracy, Shadow. And I think when you're talking about like what was the audience response to this movie, David? Yeah. Those three movies were so hyped up, so much more expensive than this was. Yeah. And had bigger stars.

And I think all three of them were viewed as... Disappointment. Serious disappointment. But, of course, this movie probably made about as much as those movies did. Exactly. They all topped out around the same spot. The difference is this is the only one that exceeded expectations. Because it was made on a budget.

So I think it had goodwill. Say again? This is a plucky movie. It is plucky. When I talk to you guys about, you know, I try to finagle my way back into the main feed here. You just gotta ask. You were on the main feed last year. What did you do?

You did Zemeckis. Allied. Allied. The great allied debate of 2021 Was that last I can't remember anything anymore That was 2021 I don't know It was It was January 2021

So it's been more than a year Since you've been on the main feed I'm actually sorry for being dismissive. Back on the main feed. I was cancelled into the Patreon for a while. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Look, this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies. Directors

who have massive success early on in their careers and sometimes... And they're giving a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Wow. Almost lost the thread there. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they go. Wow. Almost lost the thread there. Oh. Sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they go into the darkness, baby. Very true. It's a miniseries on the films of Sam Raimi.

Yep. It's called Podcast Me to Hell. Yeah. Today we're talking about his first studio film. For Universal Pictures. And his first superhero movie. Yeah. A thing that becomes a weirdly big part of his career. True. But an odd version of a superhero movie. But also, right, kind of also a Universal superhero movie. Yeah. I think that becomes a weirdly big part of his career.

True. But an odd version of a superhero movie. But also, right, kind of also a Universal monster movie. There are like five different interesting things in the soup with this movie. It's called Darkman. Yeah. Wait, I just am realizing now, is he considered like close to the Dark Universe? He should have been leading it.

This is the biggest problem. Universal should have said, obviously we is the biggest problem is universal should have said obviously we have our classic stable of monsters but let's officially induct dark man there's a new monster in town yeah but like do you bring neeson back do you say like yes hey neeson's hot let him be the elder statesman we were just talking about this how the warner brothers movies are now bringing keaton batman back to be like elder statesman Nick Fury tie it together have Darkman be the guy like I'm putting together a team from what I

I'm a monster I'm a monster with other monsters give me the fucking elephant I was just looking up the synopsis of Darkman 3 Die Darkman Die another incredible title great title and it does end with him continuing to be dark man i was like did they like close the loop did they tie it off did you know

right he like he doesn't he's like no i'm still dark man i'll see you later i think i was reading they did a tv show pilot too that didn't go but they're like gonna just keep this thing fucking moving yeah i mean like i'm sure there must have been someone who floated like an animated series it's just like but the whole thing with this movie obviously is it's not for children no but this is an era where you have like the fucking robocop the r-rated things sometimes right being marketed to kids very easy transition to just man of a thousand faces and he's a little less haunted yeah i mean I mean, another thing you didn't mention, this isn't radio, but The Saint had that vibe as well. Like, a lot of those 90s action movies

that were kind of, like, throwback-y. The Phantom's the last one. The Phantom being probably the last one. Right, in this wave. And then by that point, we're like a couple years away from just earnest superhero revival. From X-Men, yeah. Which then hits its apex with

raimi like there's just i mean for sure 90 to 2002 sort of arc to this our guest today is chris white back on the main feed where he belongs thank you the great great to be here um and and like i say yeah i i edged my way back in and i didn't because and when you when you offered up dark man i said asked for dark man my friend david told me you put a chip down yeah i didn't and when you when you offered up Darkman I said you asked for Darkman my friend David told me you put a chip down yeah did you say Darkman

you were very excited to do Darkman I was excited to do Darkman but I'm gonna be honest I think I told you Raimi and you were like Darkman

I was excited to get back in I wanted to get back in the game and I remembered it the door is always I remembered it being on pretty constant rotation on either HBO or Cinemax

when I was a kid but I hadn't seen it since and so in part I was worried I was a kid. Sure. But I haven't seen it since. And so, in part, I was worried. I was going to watch it again and think that it was not good. But actually, it was good. It fucking rips. It was really, really fun. It's really fun.

And you watch this, and it does make you question, what are all these fucking big movies doing today? Right. There's just something about the economy of this thing, the focus of this thing. The focus of this thing, but also the emotion, the visual inventiveness. And it's like, he did this for $15 million.

You get out under 90 minutes? Why aren't we doing this? And now, now, it's 96 whole minutes. Oh, I'm sorry. This thing is saggy. Joking. But it's 96 minutes. We'll see. It's in our notes. That's why I was getting confused.

Universal was like, the movie has to be over 90 minutes. And he was like, I really like an 85-minute movie. And Universal was like, 90 minutes, goddammit. Minimum. It was in his contract.

Remy's like, I think all movies should be under 90 minutes. And Universal was like, don't go pulling this fucking 82-minute shit on us. We need to be able to sell it to Hungarian television so that they can put in enough ads or whatever the hell it us. We need to be able to sell it to Hungarian television so that they can, you know, put in enough ads or whatever the hell it is. I want to clarify, they demanded between 95 and 105. So him putting it

96 is being like, I just edged it over for you. Alright, guys? But also, I mean, we'll get to it. The story of this movie's editing process is wild. The final fucking story that JJ put in the dossier is unbelievable. Did you know there's a uh video game i did for the nes so and there's one for game boy i've been playing vintage game boy recently

yeah and i immediately was like i want to fucking play the dark man game like 200 well this is the thing with these cartridges these days if the game wasn't a hit they can be i know hard to find because i'm shopping i I'm getting vintage cartridges. Oh, this game looks good. It looks good. It got good with fucking reviews. Are you opening the boxed vintage cartridges, therefore destroying their value and playing them?

Which I would admire. I buy loose vintage cartridges. Okay. I don't even... Because I have that. Yeah, you're going to overpay if you want the box. Wait, damn. You're a pretty cool guy. Thank you. Let me tell you what kind of guy Griff is. Hold on a second.

Wait, hold on. You're cool as hell. Thank you. I bet you would even open a box, though, because you just don't give a fun. I would. No, this is the thing, because all the dumb shit I collect,

sometimes the best way to get it is in box, and I always feel like an asshole when I rip it and throw it in the garbage and don't give a shit this brings me to my my first round i just messed up because i promise the other day i was listening to the blank check as i often do out loud in the morning while making breakfast for my children oh no my daughter my daughter athena age six said why do you listen to those guys who say the F word and the SH word? Oh, the SH word. Yeah.

And I said, well, listen, sometimes people use bad words, but they're still good people. It's all about context, right? It's true. Connoisseurs of context. We are connoisseurs of swearing context. And today, I said, I'm going to go and record this episode of Blank Check. And Athena said, with the guys who say those words, and I said, yes, but you know what?

I'm going to promise you that I'm not going to say those words. And you already broke your solemn promise. Ben, bleep it. For the first time in Blank Check history. No, God, no. Any time Chris curses, just drop in a little bleep. Put it in the episode notes.

You can decline. You can already tell he's like, I don't know. It's okay. No, no, Keep to your standards. It's all right. Listen, this is me. This is my problem.

My problem. Ben doesn't have to clean up after me. I understand you want to set an example for your daughter. No, give me a time code and then I'll cough or I'll say something like sugar right when I'm about to say it. Actually, that's perfect. Let's get some ADR lines. Okay.

So Chris, you just want to do a run of just nice words. Yeah. Right now, sugar, fun, fudge, Christmas, Shasta,

Christmas. Am I going to say a C word? I don't think so. Hanukkah. Hanukkah. Donuts. I don't know. Oh yeah, donuts.

That's a good option. Yeah, I think we've got some stuff there. We'll definitely, you know, use that if we need to. But again, I have faith. I'm going to be more careful.

Is your daughter the youngest? She's the youngest. Then you're the third. You're hearing all the words. She's got to. I know, right? It's all in the air at that point. I've told the Austin Powers story with my sister before, right?

Probably. We were on like family vacation. Austin Powers 3 had come out. My sister was five. And my dad just wanted to see it. Right. And we didn't have a babysitter. We were on like family vacation. Awesome Powers 3 had come out. My sister was five and my dad just wanted to see it. Right. And we didn't have a babysitter. We were on vacation or whatever.

And he was like, we'll take Romilly. And my mom was like, she's five. And he said, there's nothing in that she hasn't heard before. Right. She's five.

There's a lot she hasn't heard. She's a city kid, but there's a lot she hasn't heard. Yeah. Five years old. Had she had heard, yeah, baby. She hadn't in that room. One of the final jokes in that movie is they go to the premiere of austin

pussy another word she had never heard before austin pussy no space compound word right they go to the premiere of the movie within the movie in which tom cruise is playing austin powers and at the end everyone cheers and there's a guy who stands up and he's like austin austin and they're like who's that it's fat bastard and he's lost all the weight right oh my gosh yes so the skin is hanging off him or whatever he's wearing like a t-shirt and he's just got skin hanging off of him and he's like you look great he's like thank you i feel so good my neck looks like a vagina though right he says that my sister's favorite saying for two years Two years Not only had she not heard that But she was like

She knew it had a charge I'm picking it up She understood the human body I'm just saying like Your dad was so wrong She picked it up She wasn't just scandalized or whatever She also was like

I'll be saying this It's truly like friends would come over for dinner And they'd be like Why don't we just say hello And she'd be like My neck looks like a vagina Classic um that's what i'm saying you know the youngest the youngest kid is i know she's well she's grown up in a world full of full of challenging things well a world of dark man i mean this world of dark men

yep yeah what lurks in the shadows no that isn't that that's the shadows? Well the shadow knows what lurks In the hearts of men Is that his power? Look I don't know His nose changes shape I believe also He does have a facial transformation thing But it's like Who knows what evil lurks In the hearts of men

The shadow knows That was the introductory line to the radio show And it became like The tagline for the movie or whatever but yeah i don't know what's his power it is funny that all those other movies by the way post he can become invisible that makes sense he's shadow but but chris is right there was a thing in that movie where fucking baldwin wore a fake nose and it wasn't just like for one scene part of his transformation he does well yeah he doesn't have to put it on it is it is

weirdly some magical thing about him it's it's the clark kent thing right which is like they got around he goes i see he goes to to like tibet yeah and he learns some sort of tibetan powers right there's an eastern mysticism right shadow i'm sure this would all go over great now um the villain arrives in new york inside genghis Khan's sarcophagus. The villain is played by John Lone. Ian McKellen is in it. This is a movie that would go over incredibly well if it was released today.

Right. I miss John Lone. John Lone, a great actor. Is he not with us? No, he is. He doesn't seem to appear in things as much as he used to. Yeah, he retired. Honestly, his last big performance is, oh, was in the jason statham jet lee movie war really that's his last performance weird uh it is weird i agree great actor uh so good in the last emperor and many other things

all those movies did the marketing they tried to do the marketing thing that batman did where you could just put the poster out that was just the fucking symbol and people lost their minds. It's a face. Right. It's a very clear symbol. Like Shadow did that and Dick Tracy did that

with his silhouette. And Rocketeer was just sort of like, what is this illustration? I mean, the Rocketeer poster is a beautiful poster. Do you like the Rocketeer? I do like the Rocketeer. Another movie.

I do think it's a good poster. People really stick up for that movie. I have not seen it in so long. Good movie. The poster's incredible. But yeah, the Art Deco-y poster is very cool. And the comic was beautifully drawn. But all of them had this attitude of, you're supposed to know who this is. You should be excited

seeing this image. Darkman had a famous and very successful marketing campaign that was the exact opposite, where the tagline was who is dark man who is dark man right and and it worked it was like all these like a more innocent time like i need to say that now i'd be like i don't care because there's so many bits of content coming at me constantly yeah i don't have time to wonder this they did a good job nabbing dark man how had no one ever

done that before good because it is a pretty good name. It's simple. Yeah. I don't know. It's grabby. Yeah. Dark Man. Dark Man. And you ask who is he, and I'm like,

I don't know, but I want to find out. Well, find out this summer. Oh. In 1990. Yeah. The summer of 1990. I just think it's funny

they did the exact opposite approach of everyone else with a character that actually didn't exist before, and everyone, not everyone, but people leaned in. I agree with you,

but I do again want to just add the caveat. They all made the exact same amount of money. All these movies made the same amount of money. It's just that Darkman was cheaper. This is just the only one that made a profit. It did, but I would say that there was a general audience level of interest

in these kinds of movies, which was somewhat, you know, and then like eventually someone is like, you know what? Comic books have sold en masse for 40 years. Maybe we should just, like, do comic book movies and not couch it in this stuff.

Let's just say, though, like, the fucking marketing blitz of Dick Tracy. Right? Well, that movie did a lot better, to be clear. That movie was a genuine hit. But also lost money. It underwhelmed because of its colossal budget, but that movie did triple whatever any other movie we're talking about.

It made so much money. A year of the media yelling at people like, this is important. There's an album. Yeah. It was one of the most famous actors of all time. The biggest pop star of all time. The score was written by Stephen Sondheim.

It was a huge movie. It cost a fortune. It made a lot of money. Had a video game. It's got fucking Dustin Hoffman and Al Pacino. Do you like Dick Tracy? The Beatty movie? It's been so long since I've seen it.

I don't recall caring about it. You should check it out. Okay. It's the best. Really? There's this guy. He's got like a really flat head. Yeah. What's he called?

I mean, such a good poster. Yeah, but this is what I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about. You're saying they were like, sell him on minimal. Sell him on logo alone. And people just tilted their head and went, what? And who is Darkman?

They went, yeah, that's the question I'm asking. We're on the same page. There's only one way to find out. Put down my money, sit in the theater. Come on. You can't ask anybody who saw it. You don't want to see this? Look at that. Do you see the tagline? E-led Kappa.

William Forsyth was flat? Here's a question that was encouraging me lately. And I'm sorry if this is provocative, but do sometimes you guys like movies not because necessarily of their inherent qualities but because of their strangeness or oddness in context sometimes absolutely if a movie especially right with you know years removed you're sort of like this was such a unique object

that obviously you and i have these conversations a lot i would say when you you're like well david do you really like this like where we where we're talking about, you maybe have just re-watched something. I'm sometimes wondering, do you like it as a cultural object? Right. And it's historical context. But I mean, no, Dick Tracy, ooh, so good. I see, I will lean towards more

fascination as a cultural object. I don't think that movie works dramatically. It looks incredible. But, I look forward to doing an episode on it sometime. I'm maybe a little more fascinated by that one as an object than as a movie but i think i think it goes both ways i don't know i was talking to david yesterday about uh masters of the universe uh because i do the voice on the cartoon show and i was like trying to explain a character to him and anytime i talk about this thing i don't care about this fucking action figure line whatever but then I was like explaining a character backstory to him and the speed at which David pulled up the like He-Man wiki and yeah yeah lore like he just

liked that there was lore I just like exactly I just like knowing about I like that there is a backstory here and David is sometimes shockingly quick on the Google or Wikipedia. I'm amazed. Listen how fast he's typing. No, but sometimes I do think I look at things like that and I'm like, Dick Tracy's marketing campaign was wide enough that they had a character teaser poster just for Flat Top Eat Lead Copper. I like that. Yeah, I like that too.

I like that that happened. Dark Man, no character posters. He is the character. Well, I don't know Durant I'd see a Durant character poster Don't forget the lyric What about Iconic figure of Durant

Eddie Black That guy pops Sure Oh, but you could have used the first line Because he's a donut Because he's a donut Not because That's the first line of the movie

Which I kind of admired for It's just It's punch in the face it's uh yeah yeah how do you feel about sam raimi chris yeah let's talk in general on general i actually kind of love sam raimi uh for his idiosyncrasy right i think a simple plan is it was kind of a great movie oh yeah um i think here's where I'm just going to get myself in trouble. Do it. I do not think that, Jesus Christ, I'm about to say this.

I do not think The Evil Dead is a good movie. Look, I've had other filmmakers say this to me. We have had, we're not going to out them. No. Other people have said this to us. They're like, I don't like that movie. I don't like those movies. Actually, one person I was talking to was actually,

I actually kind of came around on one, but was like, I still can't stand two I guess because it's so plotless And silly I think there's some great gags in it And some wonderful invention And obviously, what they're doing with so little But I also do think

That there's some sort of genre elements That are rather Sort of unenthusiastically delivered. And I think that there are some shots. So you don't like any of the three? Have you seen all three Evil Deads? Oh, Christ. Over the years.

I'm really fucking painting myself in a corner here. I've only seen the first one. And this was just to get a speed for this one. Have you ever seen Evil Dead 2? No. And I'm excited to see that in Army of Darkness. I would check out Evil Dead. And I'm really sorry.

I'm sorry to everyone out there. No, my feeling is Army of Darkness might be the one that you like the best. It's based on the trailer and snippets I've seen here and there. I think I might, yeah. Have you seen The Quick and the Dead? Sharon Stone, Russell Crowe, Cowboys. No, I have not. You know why?

I'll tell you why, actually. A lot of people haven't seen that movie. Early on in my career, when I was, i think my brother and i were pitching something and somebody said you know what you know like this is just not working and i you need to see a movie called the quick and the dead which we're making right now wow because that really that really like works wait i was like were you pitching a western like were you pitching something it was just like some executive just like slamming us right you? You suck and this is a good movie. Yeah, listen.

I'm working on a movie right now called The Quick and the Dead. And you guys, you know, you want to know like the way to do these things, you got to watch that. It seems like he was being helpful. Yeah, he's trying to help me. It's true.

So you didn't see the movie almost out of spite because you're a little bit... Well, out of trauma maybe? No, I get it. Oh, actually this reminds me of another story, which is, okay, I'm going to hit you with some E2 Hollywood stories. Please do.

Let's sprinkle it here. I know that we've got only so much time here. No, no, no, no, no, no. But I remember once I was in, we were sort of pitching, my brother and I was early on, and this guy pitched us something back, which is his idea,

and he says, it's about this kid who falls overboard into the water, and there's a pack of whales and um and he he survives because the whales kind of keep him above water and they he like eats the barnacles or something and so he survives and then he becomes this champion olympic swimmer okay and and this is the best part he says uh it was based on a true story I think and I was like I was sitting there thinking I don't think that's based on a true story I think if that's based on a true story I might have heard of it

also the confidence of that's based on a true story I think I think you're an idiot now wait I have a follow up though and I don't know if you have the answer to this but did he speak whale? Oh, boy.

Oh, the guy in the movie? He does. He can summon whales. And also, the thing is, as he lives with the whales, right, he's kind of raised by whales, he acquires a lot of blubber, right? So he's not, like, super fit. He looks like a very fat, fat man. And yet, when he comes to compete against Olympic swimmers, he's just destroying them. He's like a very fat, fat man. And yet, when he comes to compete against Olympic swimmers, he's just

destroying them. He's like a human whale. He has his barnacle power. He's a human whale. He just moves his body in such a way that he's faster than anyone who's ever been in the world. I think that's based on Tristan. I think that's based on Tristan. I'm pretty sure that is. You like A Simple Plan, obviously.

I do. I think it's a wonderful movie. Have you seen For Love of the Game, his baseball movie? Yes, I have. I have. That's the one. Costner's pitching a perfect game. And he injures his hand. I forgot that's a Raimi movie.

Everyone forgets that one. Wow, yes. He injures his hand in Kelly Preston, I believe. There's a moment where he's flying off in a helicopter. He's like, I need my trainer guy. There's no space for Kelly Preston, I believe. There's a moment where he's flying off in a helicopter. He's like, I need my trainer guy. There's no space for Kelly Preston right now. That classic Sophie's Choice. Yeah.

Do you take your trainer guy or Kelly Preston? We've all been in that position. 50-50. How about The Gift? Do you like The Gift? Kate Blanchett. Murder mystery with psychic. Billy Bob Thornton scripted supernatural thriller. Do not remember. I'm sorry. Blanchett murder mystery with psychic.

Supernatural thriller. Do not remember. I'm sorry. How do you feel about the Spider-Man film? You made three of them. I like the Spooderman films very much. Yeah. I do very, very much. And then Drag Me to Hell.

I can remember actually going with Nick Holt when we were shooting about a boy. Teen Holt. We went to Spider-Man. That makes sense because it's 2002. The first one is where Bonesaw is in it and he goes, Bonesaw is ready. That's the first one.

I took Nick Holt to Spider-Man. We had a whale of a time. A whale of a time? A barnacle of a time. Do you have a whale of a time? A barnacle of a time? Did you look at Nick Holt and you're like,

someday you're going to test for every one of these fucking movies. Someday you'll be... You'll do like three, but you're also going to be shortlisted on an additional ten. Someday, yes, this will be a fun part of your life,

no doubt, which is like going down the funnel. You'll have those, but then it'll get more and more cgi over the years someday this will be the only viable path to being a young leading man in the studio system and then drag me to hell i mean we don't need to talk about oz the great and powerful but drag me to hell is the other uh i have not seen drag me to hell i feel like i think you'd like i feel like now like i i've just been interrogated and i, I'm sorry. I'm coming short. I was literally just actually.

In the eyes of blankies everywhere. And I apologize. Who do you think you are, Chris? How dare you cast judgment on Sam Raimi? No, no. Zina? Zina? Were you a big Zina guy?

Yeah. Well, I didn't sort of watch it religiously, but I approve of it. I really do. I think, like, great, great pulpy fun awesomeness and i like bruce campbell who's you know obviously ramey adjacent so it's kind of crazy that they never rebooted xena i know they have talked about it there's been attempts or whatever but that feels like a brand they it feels like if they announce tomorrow like they are doing a streaming limited, big budget. Lucy Lawless is in it,

but also ex-young actor will be passing the torch or whatever. We're doing 10 episodes of... The production will be too good. Right, exactly. The thing about Xena is that you watched it in the middle of the day

when you're a little baked. And you're like, this is sick. They wouldn't use enough trampolines to have people thrown. It was one of those things where you would be like, you're sitting on the couch. Whatever you're watching has just finished. You don't have a TV guide or whatever. And it's like, next up, Xena.

And you have that kind of 50-50 of like, should I go do something? I don't know. I could just kind of watch Xena, I guess. It is also, it's funny that Hercules was so big. Or Hercules, obviously. And then Xena just like, fucking. Xena ate its lunch, yeah.

Ate its lunch. Well, Xena was more, it was like, this is new. Hercules, it's like, I get it. He's Hercules. But I think people were like, this is surprising how big this Hercules show has gotten. And then here's this like character in one episode that pops so fucking hard that they were like, is this insane how big this Hercules show has gotten. And then here's this, like, character in one episode that pops so fucking hard that they

were like, is this insane to spin her off? And it becomes more of a cultural phenomenon. Hercules is, like, associated with homework. Oh, I see, because it's, like, legend. Boring. Oh. He, like, fights people with a sword.

Yeah, I'm learning something. I guess you're barely learning something. And then there were those quizzes that they had at the end. a sword. I guess you're barely learning. There were those quizzes that they had at the end. It was like picture pages. They made you fill out the book. You had your work book as you were watching. Sometimes when you guys talk on the podcast about watching things, and especially about watching things

that are kind of junky, I realize how much older I am than you guys, and I see myself down the road in a world in which I cannot afford to watch something that I do not believe is going to be really really good because I because I'm going to die sooner than you go oh sure yeah right so it's like I can't I can't I can't watch anything ironically yes um I can't I can't risk it I just can't watch anything ironically I think there are a lot of things I watch perversely.

Perversely, yes. Okay, that's actually probably more of the point. I do a little bit of box checking. Like, I finally watch The Doors. Oliver Stone's The Doors. I'd never seen it. Why? Many reasons.

I was too young when it came out. Never really cared about it after that. Right? It's not like the kind of acclaimed movie people like you gotta see it it's also not the kind of nothing movie that people are like don't even buy obviously it's still a movie yeah you had your whole morrison face too that really surprised me right i'm weight wise i'm in my morrison face not in any other people don't know there's a full year of this podcast that you did shirtless and leather pants.

And we just were like, let's not acknowledge it. You're just like, we got to keep them together for the podcast, man. Give him whatever he needs. The lizard makes him sad. I've got this backlog

of rewatchables episodes. Yes. Like, if I haven't seen the movie with that podcast, I'll just kind of keep it in the feed and I'll be like, I'll watch The Doors eventually.

So I finally watched the doors. And? Four out of ten. Bad. Kilmer is outstanding in it. It is kind of magic. Have you seen The Doors? I have seen The Doors.

Like, Kilmer is so good that you're sort of like, it is almost crazy. Obviously, he was a movie star, but it is crazy that he wasn't more of a movie star or his movie stardom was a sort of a briefish window. He's such an odd guy when you're like how big he both was and wasn't. Yeah. And it's like it's not the doors wasn't a hit upon hits, but it was a big deal.

Yeah. And then you watch it and he's he just is Jim, you know, and you're like, that's crazy. And then you're sort of like, but also I think Jim Morrison is this character in this movie when he actually probably wasn't right you're also like this became so culturally ubiquitous is this is what jim morrison was like right and it's like he was probably like 80 of this at best right like he wasn't this ridiculous all the time i don't know anyway oh actually this this brings but that's a perfect example movie where i'm watching it where i'm like i'm not really enjoying this why am i doing this but another side of my brain is like gotta gotta check that box. David checks off boxes.

He's like, I want to have seen every film in this sub-genre, in this era, this actor, this director, this franchise. I bet. I mean, as a film critic, every reason to, right? Just to have this kind of frame of reference. I know, but I do always caution film critics

against the idea of like, just because you watched everything doesn't mean you know everything. You know what I mean? Like, just watching stuff doesn't like automatically make you watched everything doesn't mean you know everything I mean like just watching stuff doesn't like it's a little bit automatic smarter or whatever it is also a little bit more of a compulsion with you like

as much as it does help this is true your criticism you do you're someone who needs to be like stimulated at all times and you like like getting I like to being some purpose to what I'm watching I guess these days because it is a little harder for me Chris I can't just channel surf and be like, why?

Because he's basically raised in England. Yeah, right. I'm sorry. No, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. It's hard to surf in England. This is actually a perfect time.

Ben and I have an announcement. Oh, that's a good point. I'm going to eat a perfect time. Ben and I have an announcement. Oh, that's a good point. I'm going to eat a black one. Chris brought black and white cookies, but another thing he brought that I saw him casually pass to Ben right before the episode started was in fact an envelope. Now, you are a listener.

You understand the weight of an envelope being passed to Ben. And we don't know what it says, but written on the outside is blank check and co. Is that what it says? Yeah. Okay.

So maybe I should just read it, right? Yeah. Okay. I'll open the envelope. Yeah. Okay. I'm seeing there is in fact type letters. Okay.

Okay. So. It's very official. Yeah. Form BC 1023 application to have bit retired what yeah dear sirs and madams this is to officially request retiring of the bit night eggs what from the blank check canon under the usual protocols per my recent discussion with ben hostley aka producer ben aka the ben deucer etc etc cetera, et cetera.

Oh, good. Thank God. Jesus. I'm glad he got out of that. Fuckmaster. No, no. Be it acknowledged that most people think

eggs are for the morning, but some people know different. Sincerely, Chris Weitz. Wow. Can I say this? I support this. Not out of dislike

for the night eggs bit. We're out of dislike for the Night X bit. We're out of worry for you guys that I don't know where you're going to take it. Ben's been very stressed by it. It's weighed heavily on him. Anytime Chris is coming on the show, Ben's like, do I write an entire screenplay? How far does this go?

I'm calling Staples. I'm like, can I print 200 pages on black paper? David, can you tar in the final draft for me? I don't want to pay for the software. I have to say, this does hold up. It does. It is official. Well, I just need your guys' stamp.

But here's the thing. It just was getting to the point where, in order to top where we had gone before, things were going to have to get really, really serious. And I thought about hiring, trying to reach Samuel L. Jackson, which wouldn't have worked because why would he care about me? Sure. Hiring a Samuel L. Jackson impersonator to do a long monologue.

What was the other one? I forget what the other one was. I mean, at this point, though, you're saying in order for the bit to continue, you had to put your career or money on the line or both. Well, no. And a lot of things on hold. And I wasn't sure that I could pull it off even, you know, to the level of, you know, where I think we so far like like like in a British TV show. Right. They reach a certain number of episodes and they've done well and they just decide to

stop. Let me just explain. David, in England, unlike here where shows will continue for long 22 episode seasons, go on for a few years. I don't understand why you're explaining. He's retired because as you can see clearly up in the rafters, David is from

UK. He's there hung next to the Joker. Next to the Joker. And I'm going to just now pull on this chain and my home. I want to say there's also an empty gap for Humblebrag, which was up but then was taken down. Right. You can kind of see a little bit of a fading.

It's kind of like how Tom Brady retired and then he was like, you know what? Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm going to pull on this chain and that will be sadly the end of Night Apes for now. We'll maybe bring it down

again. Who knows? Maybe I'll actually write it. No, I would never do that. If spraying screenplays is hard. Wow. It's almost like it's homework. Exactly. I'm sorry. No, don't apologize. Chris, if anything, it's a testament to how great of a guest you were

because I threw some dumb ass shit at you and you were so down yeah but another testament is this printed letter printed out something you have a printer I do have a printer humble brag color I appreciate that you went through the proper channels

I appreciate there are no loose ends here. The irony, of course, is that Darkman is almost definitely a guy who eats eggs at night, right? It's got some night eggs energy. I mean,

the man isn't really hanging out when the sun is up. So it's Darkman eat. His mouth is messed up. It's maybe my single favorite element in this movie that Darkman doesn't have lips. And so he's got prosthetic teeth on the outside of his mouth. But he can form plosives and fricatives, which is surprising. But it's weird because you're watching it

and you're like, the sound shouldn't be coming out of his mouth. I'm just watching teeth moving up and down. Like he looks like a science room skeleton. He's like, listen to me. Yeah. He's doing all kinds of things that you couldn't. But I think Neeson carries that off.

I think the makeup is really good, right? I think the makeup is incredible. It's excellent. And we're talking about Bill Paxton really wanted to play Darkman. Who was the third guy who was in contention? The third guy who was in contention was Gary Oldman. Right. Also makes sense at the time. Holy mackerel.

A lot of like, because all those actors are not that famous yet. Right. They're guys. But you could make them the leading man. You could, but also they make sense

for leading men who are going to have a lot of makeup on their face for a lot of movie or whatever. You have to put up a lot of sugar. Paxton said he wanted it

really badly, campaigned for it really hard. Yeah, I'll tell you, I'll read you the quote, actually. I came very close to being cast as Darkman. You know, you never talk about really hard. Yeah, I'll tell you. I'll read you the quote, actually. I came very close to being cast as Darkman. You know, you never talk about movies you never got, but that was one I really wanted

bad, and I made the mistake of telling an actor friend of mine about the role, Liam Neeson, and he ended up getting the part. God damn that bastard. Now, my thought is square brackets laughs. Yeah, there is no one else who could have played Darkman. I truly think as much as he's very well, there's a good Gary Oldman. There's a good paxton version of it yeah the neeson version of it is across all

universes the best possible version of this film and i think first of all you got ramey tapping into the weird power of action movie neeson 20 years before anyone else just his frame his hugeness his imposingness but also his kind of cute face and his gravitas of yelling things the intensity that he can sort of conjure him understanding how to use himself as sort of iconography that he's a man who can give very sensitive naturalistic performances but he also understands when he needs to be like a color on the palette and use his size and his timber and all of that the other thing is which i think there's a quote there that speaks to this ramey was like he has the old universal monster thing he has that sad romantic

quality he does which the other guys don't have yeah i mean the thing is like when you hear bill paxton i guess you think of near dark right like that's the thing i would think of the most and i'm like okay i can sort of imagine electric he's you hear gary oldman you think this very intense villainous performance that would be very very angry and very good probably but a totally different vibe right much more uh i'm a monster yes right you know and it actually reminds me of that line doesn't judy davis say and husband it was a husband's wives where she says liam neeson he weeps like they're talking about how he cries right he's got that like bruised poet thing yeah yeah yes that's i mean it's it's the irishman in him not a stereotype about the irish people

but they're all beautiful poet and he's got he's got i think famously soulful eyes and this is a movie where for a lot of it his eyes are the only thing you were going to see unencumbered so like yeah of course His voice needs to punch through and his eyes need to punch through. And he has that thing, the Karloff thing, where it's like, that's what made that movie a fucking phenomenon is there's some weird romantic sadness

that Karloff put into that monster that made him relatable. Let me give you some context about Darkman. I always thought Neeson would be an incredible Frankenstein's monster. All the like... Again, the height. He's got the lumbering height, but he's got that...

Who was going to be it? Was it Bardem? It was going to be Bardem. Or was he going to be the Wolfman? No, he was going to be Frankenstein's monster. In the Dark Universe. Bardem was going to be Frankenstein? Yes. Oh, I could see that.

Yeah, I could see it too. He's got another actor with a really good frame. Like, I like him. But the Neeson version, I just think, I mean, well, he's already played that. The Neeson version that doesn't exist. Right. Wolfman was like the last on the list because the Benicio Wolfman had happened recently. So they were going to let that one lie

for, I think, a little while. Now it's coming back, right? Now it's doing with Derek Cianfrance. Anyway, let me give you some context. The film Evil Dead 2 comes out. Sam Raimi is hot again to a certain extent. You know, maybe he's not getting $100 million movies, but he's mulling projects.

Crime Wave was a classic sophomore slump movie, and now he's reestablished himself. He really wants to make The Shadow. That's the top of his list. He wants to do The shadow, as we discussed. It also feels like, you know, he didn't want to do Evil Dead 2. There was a career necessity of, like,

do the movie that can get financed. That's what people want out of you. It feels like he generally was ready to make the studio leap at this point. A little bit, sure. But, who's working on the shadow? Robert Zemeckis? Robert Zemeckis. Because the movie that eventually is directed by Russell Mulcahy, who's the Highlander guy with Alec Baldwin,

that's the Zemeckis project. He eventually departs. But I think Raimi was interviewing for until Zemeckis showed interest. There was a little bit of a flirtation where Raimi was in the room before Zemeckis came in. Sure, maybe maybe I mean yeah I don't know but but basically the way Robert Taper puts

it is it tapered I think it was Tapper but who knows I don't know is only only the shadow it was just impossible because it was Zemeckis and Sam was just like okay I will try to you know take my love of that superhero and that genre of 30 superheroes and I'll do Darkman, right?

You know, like Darkman is very obviously him being like, let me plan that. There's that story. But much better for that, I think. Yeah, I think so. So much better. There's that story that Tim Burton was supposed to do after hours. Yes, of course.

Because Griffin Dunn loved Frankenweenie. And they hired him and he was like. And that led him to do Edward Scissorhandshands because yes no they were like in pre-production and then scorsese was like post temptation of christ was like i i'm feeling like cursing to get back out there and to make a movie what are the scripts he read the script he reached out no it's not post it's i think it's the temptation of falling apart again right yes or whatever and king of comedy hadn't done well. That's what it was. Yeah.

Or whatever. Yeah. That's what it was. It was that Christ had fallen apart. Yeah. As he is wont to do. And... People really beat the shit out of that guy.

Griffin Dunn went to Tim Burton. He comes back, though. And went like, hey, I'm... It's just weird. Scorsese is like asking to do this movie now. And Tim Burton was like, yeah, so then I quit right I'm not going especially Tim Burton circa 1985 yeah right now to hear I have to

imagine as much as Rami really wanted to do the shadow if you're like Robert Zemeckis coming off of back to the future and Roger Rabbit back to back right wants to do the shadow I'm not going to compete with that like you're not going to be so that guy obviously this is right right very obviously Zemeckis hasn't even made

Forrest Gump yet, but he's still King of the Mountain. But Sam Raimi also says, it wasn't just The Shadow, obviously, because this movie's very sort of

Phantom of the Opera, right? Very Hunchback of Notre Dame. Those sorts of, you know, I'm a monster! You know, the elephant man. You could never love me.

Yes. But he says that his first idea was more the idea I'm a monster. Right. You know, the elephant never loved me. Uh, yes. But the, he says that his first idea was more the idea of the man of a thousand faces. Right. Right. That was the actual initial idea for dark man. And then he brings in the,

and what if he's all burned up and what if he's got bandages on his face? A big part of why I think this movie works is that he's pulling a couple different things in and he's unbeholden to any source material and he's able to pick the best elements from like a couple different. And do it fast. Right. But like things that he loves, right? It's like, what do I like about the old classic romantic sort of wounded heart universal monsters? What do I like about these two-fisted pulp heroes?

Right. And then he had written a short story when he was younger. Yes. Right. That he was like, I always liked that idea of the guy who can make a mask, who can like be anybody. Who battles criminals. Right.

So he had the short story. And I guess then he's like, well, what if this guy doesn't have a face? That's why he makes faces. Right. Which is cool. It's just like a perfect three sort of things to pluck from. He brings Ivan Raimi

and his brother. His brother's a doctor. Ivan Raimi. I don't know if you know that. I didn't know he was a doctor. A practicing physician. Yeah. So I guess

Ivan also has his perspective on how could this make sense or whatever. Which I've heard this movie scientifically accurate. So then there's the Jenny Agater

hospital scene. It is funny that the Jenny Agater hospital moment. It is funny that she pops in for one scene. I mean, where is she? I mean, Jenny, is it Agater or Gutter? I've gotten slammed for saying it wrong, and now I'm in my head about it. I always worry that Gutter sounds kind of pejorative.

I think it's Agater. A Gutter. Jenny, a Gutter. Obviously a legend, but this is like post like Equus and Walkabout and all her, like Logan's run. She's like five seconds as one of the tribunal faces

in the first Avengers movie. Yeah. Like I think a lot of... She's in two Avengers movies, my friend. She's in Winter Soldier as well. I just think sometimes people use her as like... You know, stern British lady who says something important.

But also a certain kind of film nerd is like, Jenny Agater, that's cool. That's true. You know, American Werewolf. You know, lots of... Anyway. But yeah, no. Brings in Raimi, Ivan.

Raimi, Ivan. They take it to Universal. Empty. They take it to Universal. Universal is interested, but for the first time in Sam Raimi's career, is also like, we have notes. We want to rewrite this. It's the first time that he's ever

dealing with the studio being like, okay, so can we put some structure on this? Because I think all the crime wave problems happened during production in edit. Yes. So Chuck, because this script is credited to five people. It's credited to those two. It's credited to Chuck

Farrer, who is an ex navy seal who eventually writes hard target which sam raimi produces so i think they got on well and then these guys daniel daniel and joshua golden who were like hot new writers who never really amounted to much in hollywood no offense to them if they actually did but like their imdb list is certainly not robust i know a lot of people just kind of work behind the scenes. And the Goldens wanted to... They were like... I guess Universal was like,

okay, kids, what do you want to do? We want you to rewrite Problem Child. And they were like, we don't want to do that. We want to rewrite this movie Darkman. That seems cool. And so they work on Darkman and they said basically they had to take what was a lot of really interesting ideas and just turn it into a three-act story like yeah that's that's the way

to describe the ramey script is a big interesting heap of documents um which because my guess is like the evil dead style thing was more just kind of like you know we'll figure it out right like i don't know like they were just not used to the sort of like, we need something that is going to just make a ton of sense before there's the green light. It is just funny how, like, this movie has a tremendous amount of ideas, but it also feels very, like, focused and streamlined narratively

in a way that we were saying, like, the movies of this genre today do not. And I also think something like we recently, David, you and I went in for our yearly checkup. Oh, with Dr. Michael Morbius? Dr. Michael Morbius. In international waters, of course. Right. We had to, you know, just get a full physical. That's where his office is. Yes, on a boat.

But that's a movie where you're like, this feels like 18 writers and five different scripts cobbled together. And obviously, like, COVID delays

and reshoots and uh-oh, it turns out we're not in the universe we thought we were in. Like, a lot of stuff like that. For how many different hands

touched this movie? Have you seen The Doctor? Have you gone to see The Doctor recently? No, I haven't. I don't want to make, I feel like it's been a while.

Chris, I don't want to be self-conscious about your age, but it is important for men over a certain point to go see Dr. Michael Morbius regular. Are you worried? He's very sensitive about weight and height and all that stuff.

There's nothing, he's not going to shame you or tell you to calorie count or anything like that. Now, I would wear turtle neck. Yes, I just want to say. Here his treatments are around Dr. Moon. The treatments are somewhat radical. Yeah. This guy.

Life extension. I don't know if you know this, Chris. Most vampires are dead. Yeah. They die at some point along the way. Rip. Right, yeah. You made a vampire movie?

Yeah. Oh, this guy's pretty dead? Those guys are dead. Those guys are dead. Not Michael Morbius. Did you think about putting Morbius in your movies? In New Moon? Oh, man.

He would have spiced things up a lot. He could have been another guy who likes... You got the Volturi. Right. And they're like,

okay, interesting developments and then it cuts to international waters. Morbius is like, what's going on in Seattle? Well, Dr. Carlisle, imagine fucking Carlisle. Sure.

A vampire medical conference or something. Right. In like Vegas. Swap notes. He's like, so you're alive, youle. Sure. Vampire medical conference. Yeah. Right. In like Vegas. Swap notes. So you're alive, you say. Anyway. Okay.

So you're saying we should see Morbius though. As someone who hasn't seen it. No, you're okay. You don't need to see it. It's pretty bad. The test results are back and America has Morbius fever. I'm seeing it.

Not prescribed. America definitely has some kind of fever. Maybe it's Morbius fever. The Gold Not prescribed America definitely Has some kind of fever Maybe it's Morbius fever The Goldens Loved working on the movies They say Sam Is the nicest director They ever worked with

The whole thing was interesting It was Sam and Ivan And my brother and me Just a bunch of brothers Working on something That's what they say Everyone's looking At their phones right now

No I'm looking In the notes I have chocolate On my finger Some cookies I'm getting texts I'm getting texts From my wife Who was on the way to see The Music Man with my little kids. And he was stuck in a taxi.

One of those horrendous kind of like stuck on one side of Houston Street or something. Sure. So she's going to be late to hear Gary, Indiana or whatever it is. And she sort of had this notion how much the kids would love it. And this is a real major bummer. They're going to be fine. They'll see The Music Man, which I am seeing in May. and she sort of had this notion how much the kids would love it. And this is a real major bummer. But actually... They're going to be fine. They'll see the music man,

which I am seeing in May. Barring, you know, whatever. Humble brag. And say hi to your wife. She's the best. Let me see. Rob Taper says, also the Coen brothers...

That's what I was looking for. I forgot. ...were instrumental in building the structure. Right. I guess, basically, talking Sam through his idea, I guess, is the way he's describing it. Like, okay, great idea. What, you know, what are the beats of it? That is exactly what I'm impressed with.

So another set of brothers. A lot of brothers. A lot of brothers. No, but I just think this movie, for how many ideas it had, how many different scraps they were pulling from, how many different hands touched it, it does just feel very focused. It makes sense that the Coen brothers understood him well enough, were friends with him, knew how to sort of just like organize it. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

He also says Chuck Farrar was best at the villains. So I bet you Chuck Farrar did a lot of work on this movie because a lot of villains. A lot of villains. But anyway The most interesting thing is just Sam Raimi And like this is the whole thing with him I feel like as we talk about him

Is it's like yes the story is Friends in the woods Making the evil dead But then every time the dark man or something comes up He's like okay I'm gonna This is my chance to like elevate or whatever to like like you know be hollywood be like you know to be taken seriously he always wants to prove himself at some new thing or in some new way some new level it feels like

uh yes so like you know that's just like he was very scared but he was very excited um to you know i mean there's just lots of quotes basically of like, I don't want to just be the special effects guy. I don't want to just be the inventive, you know, horror guy. This movie has a plot, which is a new thing for me. The camera is not a star. Now that's really funny that he says that because yes, maybe the camera movement

is a little calmer in this movie, but it's still pretty exaggerated. JJ wrote in the notes, our researcher, he researcher he was like look i try not to editorialize when i'm putting these together but that's fucking insane right he had five excerpts of ramey saying like i really calmed down on this movie no fancy tricks i'm not focusing on the special effects he's like what is he fucking talking about yeah bill pope the movie He's a big deal. Absolute legend. Yes. One of my favorite DPs of all time.

Or like one of the first people I ever thought about as a DP when I was like a 12-year-old. Well, that's Dick Pope. That's Dick Pope. Holy shit. That's the Mike Liga. Bill Pope is like the Matrix. What else? Scott Pilgrim.

Scott Pilgrim. Spider-Man 2. Amazingly, Team America World Police, which I always love to think about what it was like shooting that movie. The Freaks and Geeks pilot. That's true, yeah. Alita. He's now in the Marvel...

He did Shang-Chi. He's working on 8-Man 3. Oh, right. But he's always been kicking around. This reminds me of when I thought Brie Larson and... Alison Brie. Alison Brie were the same person

and thought what an amazing career she had put together. She's in everything! Shot Topsy Turvy, shot Darkman. So anytime she dyes her hair, she's like totally transformed. Dick Pope, of course, was famously once called Dick Poop when his Oscar

nomination was announced by... Is that a Travolta? I don't remember who it was. He was the president of the Academy at the time. Was it Don Hudson? No, it wasn't Don Hudson Cheryl Boone Isaacs? Cheryl Boone Isaacs

Called Dick Poop And did she then win? Did he then win? He didn't win He did not win It was during the nomination announcement But it was just one of those things Where she said Dick Poop

And it was like And then you can't be like We're sorry we called you Dick Poop Of course you're not called Dick Poop You can't do anything You can't take it back As you were saying JJ did editorialize a bit uh where he's

like the you know after sam raimi's like i'm really trying to calm the camera down bill pope is like we use the eyeball fly ball rig the perfalock danso cam the drunken cam snap zooms whip pans dutch angles camera attached to sticks and blankets virtually anything that moved we always move the camera i was told by our dolly grip on day 50 something that we were doing our first shot in the film where the camera didn't move. It was a 360 degree

pan. That's the first time the camera was locked down. It was just spinning around. And then all the quotes from Francis McDormand. It's funny because in the Quick and the Dad episode which is next week? Two weeks. What's in between?

Army of Darkness. Oh, Army of Darkness. But it's the same thing where Gene Hackman was like, I swear to God, can you just let me act? And Sam Raimi was like, I have a bunch of setups I want to do. And Frances McDormand felt the same way where she was just like,

if you're going to crash Zoom into me when I'm crying, wait, let me find the, you know, like, then I'm not going to crash zoom into me when I'm crying, wait, let me find the, you know, like then I'm not going to act because anything I do is going to feel completely over the top. If the camera's already over the top,

like she makes a good point. It's really interesting because like clearly she, Sam talks about it. Sam Raimi, my friend, Sam, Sam, I am.

Um, he does not like green eggs. He actually does not. He does not like them in a box. No. But he doesn't like them with a fox. Obviously because he's Sam Raimi. And she's in Crime Wave briefly or whatever.

For a moment. For a second. For a moment. But like he's like, oh, working with my friend, Francis McDormand. We used to live together. This is going to be great. And Francis McDormand, who as we all know, is a strong personality, isn't afraid to say her opinion

in any forum, clearly was like, Sam, will you stop fucking doing all this bullshit? Like, I want to act over here. And he was like, I don't get it. Why aren't we friends?

It is interesting. They both talk openly about what a difficult time they had working together on this movie. And it sounds like... And credit to them that they talk openly.

They talk openly, and it sounds like they are friends again now. Like, it didn't... Yeah, I movie. And it sounds like they talk openly. They talk openly and sounds like they are friends again now. Like it didn't. Yeah, I think they're right. They're fine. I saw McDormand say also that she was like

there was a lot about it. I found frustrating. I found the process frustrating. There is not that meat that much meat on the bone with this character. Right. There was this thing

that Sam had sort of gotten criticized in the Evil Dead movies of like the women are one dimensional, they just exist to be killed off. Quick and the Dead is an exception, there are exceptions, The Gift is an exception, but he has a lot of damsels

in distress in his filmography. Right, yeah. It's a trope he leans on with the superhero shit. I actually think that handling of Mary Jane across the Spider-Man trilogy is a time he has done well in avoiding that character outside of certain sequences i don't know coming to there's some yeah there's a moment that quite threw me where um liam you know dark man liam

neeson yeah uh says was there anybody else um you know while i was uh burnt in a way and and she says there was a man who comforted me, but it doesn't really mean anything. And Liam Neeson is like, oh, fantastic. Thank God you're not dirty. Yeah. I don't think I would have felt that way. No. Also, that's very bad judgment on Frances McDormand's part,

her character's part. Yes. The character, of course, is called Julie. Julie. Right. How could I forget? She said, how could I forget? She said... How could you forget the famous character, Julie?

She wanted... First choice was Bridget Fonda, of course, who you will eventually work with in A Simple Plan and briefly end in Army of Darkness, but she was quite young. And you thought she would play weird against... Did you read the Julie Roberts thing? Was that in the dossier?

I did. We'll get to that. That is fascinating. But it sounds like it was this thing. I mean, I guess McDormand had her first Oscar nomination at that point. Mississippi Burning had come out. That's a good call. Wow. Yeah, because that's 88.

So, yes. So, it's that kind of thing where, like, she had an Oscar nomination. She was taken seriously as an actress. She wasn't a movie star. She was doing a solid for a friend. This is really only, like, her fifth movie. Right. Like, total.

It's a two-fold thing where, like, Rainey, by all accounts, kind of pushed for her. She was on the list, but she was maybe lower her fifth movie. Right. Like total. It's a twofold thing where like Rainey, by all accounts, kind of pushed for her. She was on the list, but she was maybe lower on the list. Right. And he really pushed for her. He wanted the gravitas. He was like, I want this to have real human feeling. I want there to be a relationship that is like played straight at the center of this. We can hang our hats on that.

Yes. Around all the silliness. She had also gotten a Tonyony nomination for a broadway revival of a streetcar named desire playing stella sure okay so that was probably a very good performance probably was and also that's the kind of thing people pay attention to yeah but i think she had a little bit of weight but she wasn't seen as like a movie star and by her account she was like this was a career decision where i was like appreciative that he gave me a big part in a big studio movie that I got to work on a more technical film that I got to be like the ingenue. Like I wanted to see she has her line where she's like, I wanted to learn how I like look on camera and how I react to lights and all these sorts of things and learn my angles and all these things I did not feel experienced with.

And she was like, my lesson was that's not the kind of actress I am. I don't like doing that. Right. She says this is the, quote, first bimbo she ever played. Yes. Frances McDormand, obviously, again, never afraid to shoot straight. Do you have the line there about, like, the eyes roll back into the head?

The eyes roll back into the head. It's somewhere there. But she said, like, because they both... Yes. Oh, right. This is a good quote. Always being concerned about the way I look and what my clothes are like. I'm just not good at that.

In many female roles on film, most of your energy goes into making sure you look good and that you don't do anything that's going to make your face look too weird on camera, which I can't do.

I do things and my eyes roll back in my head. I can't help that. I just think it's funny that she was like, I have an Oscar nomination now. I'm taken seriously

as a movie actress. I don't think I know how to be a movie star. I just think it's funny that she was like, I have an Oscar nomination now. I'm taken seriously as a movie actress. I don't think I know how to be a movie star. I'm aware of what actress careers are like. Let me do the things I need to do to be like a sexy woman

in a movie. And she did it once with her friend and was like, I hate this. I'm not good at it. I'm going to do my own fucking thing.

Her whole career is kind of formed in response to trying this one part. Frances McDormand has three Oscars. Yes. She's the most winning, living actress.

Right. She's very famous. I would say a lot of people probably know her. But is she a movie star in that, like, she could open a movie at any point in her career?

No. Maybe post-Fargo, but then she's just obviously not very interested in pursuing that. But. Maybe post-Fargo, but then she's just obviously not very interested in pursuing that. Yes. But she never really took roles where it's like,

my face, my name, on the poster, right? You know? I feel like she didn't want to be after this. No.

It's just not something she's ever really done. She's like Buscemi. A real actor. But she has three lead actor i know it's wild i know what you mean like yeah because we've talked about him too where it's like a really famous character actor right it's like everyone recognizable right no she's funny because it's three leading roles in like three big ass movies uh you know one of them is like her husband

positioning her as a lead at a time where she was sort of allergic to, I think, probably most leading type roles that were being offered to her, writing a part that did suit her interests and her skills, right? Like post this. Yeah. Let's see. She's in a movie called Hidden Agenda, which is a Ken Loach movie, British movie.

She's the lead in that. She is. But that's a small movie. Yeah, yeah. She's in a movie called The Butcher's Wife, which is not a major role. That's a weird Demi Moore, Jeff Daniels comedy. Yeah. She's in Short Cuts.

She's in Beyond Rangoon, which is a Patricia Arquette movie. She's in Palookaville. Like, she's in a lot of movies actually kind of not going anywhere until she gets Fargo. It's not like she was, like, inevitable when Fargo came out.

And then, like, post-Fargo, it's like, it's only three or four years later she's in Wonder Boys and Almost Famous or whatever, where she's graduated to the gravitas-supporting funny and whatever. I think she's more comfortable. And also, by the way, anytime she's ever done a paycheck movie post-Fargo,

it's in a small role. It's her doing Transformers 3, and she has four scenes where she's Optimus Prime. As quickly as possible. Looking at this document here. I mean, her performance in Eon Flux, which is a movie I stick up for, is fascinating. And that is clearly a movie that was a lot of work

because you have to wear all these crazy costumes and do all this stuff. That feels like her being like, well, I'm interested in working with this director. This is an interesting project. But like, it is weird when you see her in a blockbuster. Eon Flux is a weird blockbuster, but still we were like, damn, that's Francis McDorm this michael bay has that weird thing where he like collects coen

brothers actors he clearly loves the coen brothers and uses like all of their stock i think he also has that reputation where people like you should do it once it's wild like there's nothing right someone like taturo's coming back to her and going like you're gonna find this fascinating um but anyway mcdorn it is it is just all these quotes are very funny go ahead i don't think that which pope is it bill now bill pope bill pope is the d i don't think he's doing her any favors because here's what i think i actually am developing a little theory here that the so some of the scenes had to be so about being dark yeah but the scenes that weren't were too light right yeah sure and hosed down with 10ks yeah like it is a nuclear it's like

it's a very like sort of pop arty all the day light scenes which are the scenes that she's in by and large i also think she has a very interesting face that i imagine especially if your job is we want to make her just the love interest in this movie when you're not playing up the character and the tension in her face which i think a lot of her best roles do she seems like someone who is hard to figure out how to light and you don't want to blast her with with light i think you get the sense like she feels uncomfortable in these outfits she feels uncomfortable wearing this man the power suits that whole part of this movie is just sort of like okay whatever it's total shoe leather where it's it's like look the city and property and you wearing this much makeup. Oh, man, the power suits. That whole part of this movie is just sort of like, okay, whatever the thought is.

It's total shoe leather where it's like, look, the city and property and, you know, buildings and land. I thought the whole meeting was like on a different context. No, no, she's working.

I really thought she was like a journalist or something. She's working for Baddow McPherson, right? Yes. Or on that. I mean, actually, this is one of these

evil developer movies, right? Yes. Which was like the quicksand of the 90s was developing. Absolutely. And by the way, they were right. Actually, a lot of the like hobgoblins of Hollywood movies turned out to be exactly right,

but they've somehow been declawed by the fact that they've appeared in studio movies, like Development, The Evil Corporation, The Shattered Corporation, Evil Tech Guys. I feel like we had 10 years of like, oh, this overworn trope of the evil tech guy and now all of them but they are evil right yeah and they're like i'm building a rocket ship and we're like they fucking told us this in a movie but somehow because they've been in big movies but it no longer really has has an actual real well because it's what you're saying

where it's like evil developers and then a movie is like i want to develop a death ray it's like well they don't want to do that it's like well yeah but they do want to do a lot of bad boring like that we should call 200 housing units the thing i find fascinating in the mcdormand thing is that she sort of says like a you know he was like doing me a favor i thought i needed to do this type of movie as like learning experience means to an end understanding how to fit in Hollywood it taught me the things I don't want to do I found it difficult to work around his process

and whatever and it was like he was asking me to bestow gravitas around a thing that was not really that well written this part specifically

right there's not that much there and he's doing all this crazy pyrotechnics around me but she also says like I came to set talking to him like my friend she admits she was

maybe too fresh with my living room because we're in a professional environment i'd be like sam what the fuck are you talking about i don't want to do that that she was sort of like that and it's tough to yeah you don't want to talk to a director on his set that way because then you know right it's gonna throw off the balance of a lot of things i I guess. I don't know. If someone looks you in the eyes on set, you fire them, right? Yeah. Of course. You wear sunglasses all the time. You wear a mirrored suit so no one can see your body.

If they speak to me. A mirrored suit. If they speak to me, it's a problem. Ben taking out his notebook lightning fast. And, like, if someone talks to you, someone immediately just pulls them away and gives them a card being like, the director cannot be spoken to. You know, the director will speak to you please report straight to hr i'm just like too much of a of a pussycat actually i think i'll tell you my my scariest moment on um with an actor on

set was like oh actually no they're two it wasn't scary but once um i was rehearsing this scene with uh with nicole kidman on Golden Compass. Sure. And Nicole looked at me and she said, no, it's got to be clever. I was like, wow, the implication here seems to me that I'm not clever. Good kid impression too. And then there was when Sir Ben Kingsley, whom I love, first day on a shooting operation finale,

asked me or summoned me to his green room. And he looked at me with a very scary kind of like sexy beast-ish kind of feeling. No, no. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And he's also playing Eichmann in your movie. He is. He's playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said also playing Eichmann in your movie. He is. He's playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he said to me, I think I have a feeling that you do not want me to surprise you. And I was like, Jesus. Like, no, no, I think that'd be great. Man, I love surprises. And I was just like, I went into a bit of a cold sweat. And he said, because if I am the most disliked person on this set, I don't give a donut. And I said, well, I don't see why you should be.

There's no reason for that to be the case. Everything's going to be fine, basically. Right. That's throwing down quite a marker on day one as well. I was like, oh, God. Was he the most disliked person on this set? No. Actually, by the end of it, once I think he realized that we knew what we were doing and that he was not in kind of one of these programmers where he's sort of thrown to the wolves. No, it was great.

And he was lovely and he would do anything. I remember seeing him in the UFO. Oscar Isaac was the most despised. Too hot. Everyone's just like, grr. I know. I was like, I'm too attracted to you. Exactly.

You know, this is just not going to work. Where does this guy get off being such a cutie pie? What a fucking dreamboat. Can we talk about the Julia Roberts thing? Yeah, if you want to talk about the Julia Roberts thing. I just think it's fascinating. I know. I always try and just sort of get.

But yes, Francis McDormand, of course, said that the final two choices were Francis McDormand and Kelly Lynch, according to Nancy Nanner. Kelly Lynch, a bit of a forgotten early 90s star. Right, but was on a bit of a roll and slots more, obviously, into this type of part. She's in Cocktail. She's very good in Drugstore Cowboy.

Roadhouse. And she's in Roadhouse, of course. But the studio was pushing for Julia Roberts. This is pre-Pretty Woman release, is my guess. But she's still, again, an Oscar nominee for Still Magnolia. She's in Mystic Pizza.

But what's the other element at play? She and Liam had dated briefly and had broken up and when they read the audition scene together both actors had tears in their eyes it was so intimate right after her agent called and said she should maybe be taken out of consideration it's too raw for her um but fascinating to think about especially when brady means like I wanted to build this love story that like you actually cared about. The idea of them like watching these two actors walk in with tears in their eyes

and go like straight into the depths of feeling. They must have been like holy fucking shit. But like honestly when I hear that I'm like shit I want to see that. I do too. Maybe that because Frances McDormand is fine in this movie but it's probably like the worst francis mcdormand performance of all time in a way where you're kind of like yeah she's

she's pretty good like i sense her discomfort in this movie i don't have a lot to do performance but yes it's it's just it does feel like the one where she realizes she learns exactly what kind of actor she is by doing this and learning what she doesn't want to be she's giving a melodrama yes performance right which to her point makes sense she's like if this movie is this bombastic around me i'm not gonna go small i'm not gonna go intimate right you know yeah right um neeson though is just like so properly dialed in it it's kind of incredible and it's like you think about he was a guy who was a little bit known but wasn't a movie star and wasn't a leading man at this point he is about to be oscar schindler he is a gravitas right but that's still three years off he put in this movie the good mother which is the leonard dimoy movie an insane movie do you know what the

premise of that movie we've talked've talked about it on this podcast. It's insane. We've talked about it on this podcast. He was in a movie called Next of Kin that I think was sort of like a solid thriller. But yeah, he's... He's an Excalibur, right? I mean, the smaller parts. But he's like a baby. I know. He's got like baby roles. Yeah. Next of Kin, of course, is a

Swayze. And he's in The Deadpool. Is that right? He's in one of the Dirty Men. He's in one of those. He's in, um... Let's see, let's see, let's see. Is the Deadpool the one where there... Is there an actual pool with, like, a thing that goes over the pool? No, that's the drowning pool.

That's the drowning pool. The Deadpool is, you know, someone's betting on killing cops, and so Dirty Harry is gonna shoot them. Right. They'll be in the Deadpool. He's in that zone that I think studios liked for movies of this budget level where it's just like, that's a face that people

have seen before. He doesn't cost us too much money, but audiences will feel a little bit comfortable. And he's got leading man chops. He's handsome. As Neeson says, the script appealed to the little boy in me because I know it would have been something

I would have loved to seen at a Saturday matinee growing up in Ireland with that little kid from the movie Belfast. He didn't say that part. And also he says, and it was a big fat juicy lead to the movie. I'm Liam Neeson in 1990. Who am I to turn this down? What works is that it doesn't feel like a craving calculation, even if he does go like,

oh fuck, this is my entree into being the guy on the poster. He certainly found this movie exhausting to make. I'm trying to match. Because he had to put a bunch of fucking makeup on his face all the time. It was a 60-day shoot. Yeah. It was not easy. He's got to caper around quite a lot.

And all these crazy rainy setups. And he's apparently, his next film is a movie called The Big Man. Never heard of it. Liam Neeson playing a big man. What they do build small sets. In which he played a bare knuckle boxer. Right.

Which was like being shot in Scotland. So he would like get up before filming Darkman and like do boxing preparation. He would wake up at 3 a.m. Box and train for three hours and go to makeup chair at like 6 a.m. So that he could be on set at 9 a.m. He said it was five hours for makeup. They got it down to three at some point. So, you know, but he does say the film

is very dear to him to this day. And he's been in a lot of movies. He's not doing like the little things that actors can do to say like, I know I'm better in this movie and you and I, audience member, know that this is horse shit. that's what i love about yeah and he's he's not winking no it's it's but i think it's exactly what you said david that he's like i would have loved this movie as a kid i would have been hook line and sinker in on this i want to give the

performance that i wanted to see rather than being like, I'm fucking Liam Neeson. I'm a trained actor. And it's like, he knows exactly how silly to go when to be scary. You know, he understands the sort of like vocabulary of his poses. He just had some good monster work, you know,

sound and physicality. Yeah. He's got like a lot of Quasimodo in him. Like, yeah, but I feel like all his posing, like when he's hunching and sort of lurching and the way he runs and everything, it's like he understands, like he looks like

illustrations. Now Chris, I, the other actor we should briefly mention, main actor, is Larry Drake, who plays Durant. Is that that cigar chomping fucker? That's true. Hell yeah. He's good. He's got kind of this Edward G. Robinson thing going on,

which is, I feel like, what you're talking about. His hair is so interesting. It's so... I kind of can't look away from this weird layer. It's just this push everything forward. Everything is just perfectly in the same direction. His bit with the cigar cutter is great villain stuff. It's simple, but it is a good kind of calling card behavior, right?

It's kind of nasty. It's kind of old-fashioned. Look, there is a reason why. People had been asking us, are you guys going to do the Darkman sequels on Patreon? And we thought about it, and then we were like, does anyone like these, or is it just the titles, right? And it's like,

Die, Darkman, Die is a funny title, but there's also just something so funny about being like, we didn't get Neeson back. We paid for Drake. It's now Larry Drake above the title. He's the biggest face on the poster, and the movie is subtitled The Return of Durant, as if Durant was

like Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive. Like, this guy popped so fucking hard, the sequel's going to be all about him. poster and movie is subtitled the return of durant as if durant was like tommy lee jones and the fugitive like this guy popped so fucking hard the sequel is going to be all about him they do give him too much weight yes right yeah the return of durant also i mean he's back i think throughout the movie he makes some really bad decisions right uh durant or larry drake durant definitely makes some bad durant should not fire missiles at police helicopters. So Sam Raimi wanted it to be a flamethrower. And all the special effects guys were like, Sam, if there was a man hanging out of a helicopter with a flamethrower,

the flame will engulf the entire helicopter. It's going to die. And everyone will die. We're not even having a conversation about this. Right, that's not going to happen, sure. Would have been cool. Would have been cool if it was animated. Your pro flame thrower over missile launcher in general?

I can't answer that question, David. That's crazy. Favorite children. I'm just thinking the consequences of his actions are going to be pretty terrible one way or the other. Yes. No, I'm just thinking like the consequences of his actions are going to be pretty terrible one way or the other. Yes. In as much as, you know, somebody will have witnessed, right, this guy firing missiles at police helicopters. Sure.

And no matter how nihilistic he's feeling at that stage, he cannot be reckoning his future very carefully at that point. It is one element of the movie that feels like it's in response to like the the stalonification of action movies and i like it i like the pulpiness of it but it is funny the rest of the movie is like happening in like warehouses and abandoned alleyways and whatever and then you have this one just like bright daylight middle of traffic yeah there's a dark man from a helicopter and a guy with a rocket launcher right i also like that he has two commands to his pilot and one of them one of them is something like dip him and the other one is with him or something like that right it's excellent um yeah and and and the so the

finger cutting things i also thought do would the fingers be so well preserved in his little finger display case? Wouldn't they have been shriveled? He's got a bombing fluid. He must have a guy. He's done it. He takes them back. He's got a guy. Or he does it himself. He ziplocks them very carefully. We gotta get this to him

in the next hour or so. He's kind of meticulous. These gangsters, they all are, right? They've all got their looks I'll give Larry Drake a big compliment here I think his I think his high point of the movie When he's playing the two versions His performance

As Neeson playing him Is really fucking good He's having the most fun with that Well you know what I like that long haired guy He's fun It's always fun when they do that. Well, you know what? I like that long-haired guy. He's fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's always fun when they do that.

But yes, no, you're right. Drake really thought about the difference. He feels like the guy who was the actor who was playing. The other guys were, well, like the guy who plays Pauly. I was thinking, I wrote this note to myself, like what are his dreams? Like that actor. Like what is his, this is probably a big role for him right

maybe the biggest he's played probably but what was he what you know what else who does he want out of life oh sure the actor you know he'll play heavies for his entire career presumably larry drake no no no the guy who plays paulie bald nich Worth The first like body switch With the tattoo Right It's a lot of It's a lot of movies I haven't heard of Without being rude Right

But it's a lot of Thug One Bull Right Spunts Tucci Right Rhino

A lot of guys who sound like heavies I bet he's dreaming of like stickball Or this childhood Something nostalgic Stickball Because he looks like he's having a good rest He's dreaming of like stickball or this childhood, something nostalgic. Because he looks like he's having a good rest. He's dreaming of stickball. Stickball. This is the movie I'd want to see

when I was a kid. He thinks that too, but Liam Neeson gets to say it. To give people a sense of the plot of Darkman, in case we haven't done a good enough job. Dr. Peyton Westlake. A great name. Peyton Westlake is a really good comic book hero name. Dr. Peyton Westlake. A great name. Incredible. Peyton Westlake is a really good comic book hero

name. Dr. Peyton Westlake. Everything about this movie, you're like, he's making this up? This feels like it's pulled from the annals. He's trying to create synthetic skin, of course. Much like Dr. Michael Morbius creates synthetic blood. Right. But he wants to help burn victims by creating synthetic

skin to graft. But it's always disintegr burn victims by creating synthetic skin to graft. But it's always disintegrating. What is it? The light. After 99 minutes, they figure out that it's photosensitive. Yes. They keep it in the dark.

And what's also really cool is everyone's surrounded by sick gear. Yeah. Their lab is very much a Ben Hosley environment. Yeah. Very cool set design, in my opinion, actually. So cool.

And then in classic Sam Raimi style, they like throw Liam Neeson into every part of the set during the big, like he gets set on fire sequence. The fucking, I love the shot of him being slammed into the glass, you know, pulled out over the next one, pulled out over the next one, like that the next one like that whole camera i love

that i mean the bad guys when they do the things that they do also they're very joyous in their yes yeah sure this isn't just a job guys you're like doing jobs but they seem to even also and at the end um the the the big bad guy even when he's doing things that to me seem like he should really be worrying about his future. Again, I'm worried about these, these bad guys.

You're right. You're being too parental. Yeah. You're like, come on guys. Have you thought about next year? Retirement account. Get a GD.

Come on. You're really on the edge of your entire dream being destroyed right now. And yet you are so wrapped up in, I mean, you're standing on like like a the top of a building in construction with a bolt gun this is not good whatever happened this is not good for you this is not a good result but you are so enjoying shooting at dark man like i think it's strange chris did you see the bolt gun did you consider okay consider the ball because i agree

i don't like heights but um i'd be interested in trying it out. You know, it's funny. Raimi does a lot of scaffolding battles because he does that in Spider-Man 3 as well. And I feel like there's another movie. I was going to say, I mean, no way home brought it back, but I do feel like there was a 10 to 15 year period

where if you were making a superhero movie, it had to end in scaffolding. You had to be at a high height in an abandoned... Factory jumping for... Right. You have to be on a steeple. You have to like... That was the big...

There were no giant portals Well, that's the famous Batman story, right? Where John Peters is like, it's ending in a church. And Burton's like, no, it's not. What?

And he's like, I already built the church. Get him up that church. And motherfucker, you're going to the top floor. And Burton's like, this isn't in the script. Why are they... And he's like, it doesn't matter. It's, you're going to the top floor. And Burton's like, this isn't in the script. He's like, it doesn't matter.

You need a location. Dark Knight ends that way too. Yeah, it does. And I feel like that's the last of that. The original run of your final set piece. And people really complained about that Dark Knight where they were like, this action is muddy. I can't tell where anything is because it's just a bunch of girders.

X-Men. First X-Men ends in the Statue of Liberty. Sure, it does really good action sequence. Right. But then it did feel like weirdly a throwback that No Way Home is scaffolding around the Statue of Liberty. Another one where they barely explain why that's happening. Reason not to have a lot of people around. Yeah, of course.

You get the civilians out of the way. And also it looks cinematic. You get Skyline behind you and all this shit and then you always get to people love to have bad guys fall from a great height anyway

very good falling out of a window gag in this one yes I thought they did that very well the bald guy yeah the bald guy

yeah that falls it's really it's really long like it takes a long time before I don't know how they did it

and it kind of doesn't look like a dummy at all no I don't know what they did and the guy wasn't doing the same thing of overly gyrating his arms on the right now you know um so julie hastings his girlfriend she's a lawyer she's got this document that her boss what's it called the memorandum what's the bellisarius memorandum that's like

we're going to rebuild the entire city or whatever. It's just these little simple things that Raimi is just good at making sure he covers where it's like, put the coffee cup on the paper. And focus on, just give us one clear shot so it sticks in the back of our brain and we can shorthand get back to that later and make it

put together the piece. Right, because this memo is at the lab to rant and at al show up. They beat the shit out of Liam Neeson. It's a memorandum that reveals. We are bad guys. We like doing bad things. Please don't tell anyone about the bad stuff.

Also don't copy this. Also don't. PDFs don't exist. Also use a coaster. They really do. Robocop him. Where it's kind of like. You're dead.

Now. 15 more minutes. You know what i mean like they really go to town i think there's a fair amount of robocop in the dna of this movie even you're talking chris about how joyous the goons are that's the thing i really think of like robocop if not pioneering that like all the bad guys in that movie fucking love being bad guys like they can't stop laughing as they're shooting people and shit. And maybe it also shares the DNA of someone not, not actually terribly prepossessing being considered a super dangerous bad

guy. Like, uh, uh, he's Kermit. Um, no, in,

in Robocop, it's a, uh, Kurtwood Smith, right? Right. The sort of banality of these guys, right.

This guy who doesn't even look that scary. Right. And with combined, he'll get his foot in your ass. Right. But yes, yes. They're these insane, like nihilistic hedonists. Okay. I'm sorry to interrupt this stupid, but, but, uh, even look that scary right in with combined he'll get his foot in your ass right but yes yes they're

these insane like nihilistic hedonists okay i'm sorry to interrupt this stupid but but uh leg leg gun guy this is a fantastic guy this fucking guy it starts it starts with establishing super bad guy yeah it's a very fun opening scene we haven't touched on it uh yes durant comes in with his guys who are not enough guys they They're all surrounded by guys with machine guns. The, the, the, what's his name? Sorry, Eddie Black. That's the current big boss.

They make fun of this guy with the limp. Right. I do like Eddie Black's joke. I dated a lady with one leg. What happened? Had to break it off.

Yeah, it's good. Two comedy points. Or it could have been like it was all just hollow at the end. Well, there you go. Now I'm just... I want to see a line-o-rama have done a few yeah a few jokes but yes

you like that this opening go what else what else what else what else my favorite thing about this opening scene let's see let's okay all right hush you two be quiet you finish your point about gun well okay so so then it it it turns out that the man's a fake leg is actually a machine gun classic, um, which, which is somehow very quickly acquired off of the guy who then like take it out under him, pick it up and start fucking mowing. Now, notwithstanding the fact that you suddenly have a machine gun that they did not expect you to have and that, okay, it may work better than you would think a machine gun leg would work.

Everybody else still has shit loads of machine guns and rocket launch and everything but they seem to be so stunned by this they can't get over turn by this gestalt shift you never they cannot defend themselves adequately against what then comes i do like that eddie black is like okay get him and then a bunch of cars drive out of shipping containers yes i do like that he has a backup yeah she's like don't worry there's guys in shipping containers if you're sam ramey and the studio is giving you 15 million dollars how many cars can i buy right i had to blow up my own car twice you know yes that's true he did but that guy but the surprise of cars in shipping containers did not trump the surprise of leg which turns into machine gun and so somehow the game is just won the moment that machine gun is deployed it's all over it's psychological warfare yeah yeah yeah

so they burn they they burn acid and throw in a river. They murder his assistant. They do murder his poor assistant. They rob him. Show some assistance. Let him go. In order to give him what do they say? Breathing room or whatever? Give him some air.

They give him some air by shooting him in the head. It's actually Ted Raimi who does it and he seems nervous about it. It's actually a really well played scene. Ted Raimi is the guy who he seems nervous about it. It's actually a really well-played scene. Yes, yes. Yeah. So Ted Raimi is the guy who makes his first kill, who is then beloved by Duran. Right. That's Ted, yeah.

But he doesn't die. Jenny Agutter, whatever, instead he's recovered from the river and she's just like, great, new process. He'll feel no pain. We'll snip his adrenal know adrenal glands very very quickly just because I wanted to shout out

like sort of just this moment where like like kind of quickly passing by but just because it made me excited and illustrates why I think Sam Raimi rules as a director so I just wrote down so okay the flying burnt ass body silly fun fun

sure the fucking building you know into the river splash yeah okay fade to her like standing out in the street and it turns to the funeral right fun kind of just like match matches all very nice matches yeah um and then it goes right to then the grave digger making a joke about the guy being blown to bits that's just like kind of a bunch of rapid fire i just love this like goofy filmmaking but it's like economical and like interesting it just like i don't know i just like that little one minute little part of the movie i think was greatest comic cool digger since hamlet good call you think so good call trying to think if there's any competitors there um yeah you read the reviews at the time and it's great diggers that's a rap

critics are starting to see more movies like this they're like this is the first time someone's made something that actually feels and looks like a comic book right and i think part of it is things like the transition of mcdormand to the funeral speed of it. But also he's like, he's leaning into the artificiality of his techniques in the same way that you have a guy who's drawing his 80th issue of whatever. And it's like, how do I keep this fresh for myself? What are some cool transitions and devices I can use? And I feel like all the composite shots in this movie,

anytime they're in front of what is clearly an artificial background, they're like heightening it. Like they're making it look sort of pop-arty rather than trying to create a seamless effect. Yeah, it's painterly. That's all I wrote down. All true. I just also think it's really funny

that he wakes up after everything we've just described. What is this? Like 20, 25, 20 minutes before he's dark? Correct. He wakes up and it's like, okay, so I can't feel pain. I have no face. He's attached to a Samokam, essentially. We talked about this in the Evil Dead episodes.

Oh, sure. Yeah. That spinning cross that they would put. Right, right. But he's, right, they're just spinning them all around. I'm just trying to say like, he's like,

if Darkman, if he were to sit down at this moment, right at that, I can't feel pain. Yeah. I'm going insane. Yeah. I have no face.

Everyone thinks I'm dead. I've been left for dead. I can make faces with a computer. I'm good at impressions. It's my life's work. But then there's the added wrinkle of like, I'm not so bad with the impressions. I'm a pretty quick study.

So do you think he should have taken it on the road? I'm just saying, I love that. He puts all that together. He just got stuck up on revenge. Ridiculous. Because it's always those comic books, like when you're like, I'm going to read detective comics, blah,

and it's like Batman. It's like two pages. They're just sort of like, of course his parents died, but he was rich, and he didn't like bats. He saw a bat one time. Yeah, and you're like, yeah course his parents died, but he was rich and he didn't like bats. He saw a bat one time. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, and you're like, yeah, whatever, man, he's Batman. The language of those comics is just has to be fast. So you're just saying,

you know, by panel eight, they're like, I've got it. I'll be Spider-Man. And you're like, okay, but this,

where he's just like, I guess I should. And we're like, yeah, you should. I buy that. Be like an insane master of disguise who also like brutalizes people you should. I buy that. Don't have a lot of options. Be like an insane master of disguise who also like brutalizes people. Sure, that's good.

The specificity of... And there's a time limit. Like, you know, you got to keep watching the clock. There's another time constraint, which is that in order to make a Liam Neeson face, it takes 512 hours. Whereas to make any other face that he needs to make, it takes less.

Not to be fair. Liam Neeson has a pretty particular face. Very particular set of face. I thought it was that they were doing the whole body, so I was assuming it was taking all that extra time for his huge hog. Oh, well, this is so notorious. Every time Neeson's discussed on this podcast.

Chance Dickinson described it as an Evian bottle. It was going to happen. Someone's scratching the fucking bingo card. Chris has to go now i'm gonna tell the story in which someone once uh reported to me that his penis had been described um like a dead german hanging out a window why german i don't know but for some reason when my friend well i guess it was like world war iiper who had like snapped himself into some kind of harness. No, I understand.

Right, right, right, right. But then also, this is where Athena comes in as well, which is the connection is actually not dirty. For some reason, she was at the end of the table when this was being discussed, but not clearly a little too loudly. And then for a while, she kept on singing, dead German hanging at the window. I'm a dead German hanging at the window. So she just picked up on the image of the dead German. She didn't get the double entendre. The sound of it.

No, she did not. Right. That is now, that will haunt me. Yeah, absolutely. Liam Neeson, yes. I do. Liam Neeson, yes. Oh do... Liam Neeson, yes. Oh, no, no.

I know what I was going to say. You were talking about how long it takes for him to make the mask. This thing where they built the machine that pretty much could do it in real time on camera. Exactly. Could at least do... Right. If he wanted it to be just about as realistic as it could be. Like a 3D printer.

How great would it be if we could hire magicians and come up with a way to let this play out so that Sam can cover it and shoot it however he wants and use as much of the footage as they want. So essentially like everything up to the finishing of the mask could happen continuously. Right. And then they would swap out a different thing. The special effects are really good. They're really good. They are really good especially because it's not that expensive. It's pretty digital.

I mean in one sense it's digital because you see the computer images. But. It's pretty digital. I mean, in one sense, it's digital because you see the computer images, but really it's pretty CGI. But you know what I like about this, too? The Mission Impossible franchise has probably become our preeminent mask franchise. Right? Famous. And there, they just always use

the trick of, we swap out an actor and they just look perfect. Except for the De Palma movie. The De Palma movie, they made the mask. Oh, sure. But apart from that, mostly they did. No, no. Yes, yes.

The thing I like in this is when Dorkman is pretending to be Durant, they put makeup on Larry Drake to make him look a little artificial. Yes. It's just a little bit wrong. The color is a little bit wrong. The color's a little bit off. His eyes are a little too great. What about when they do the two mask, though? That's cool, too.

Where the first mask comes off and then the second mask has the tape on the mouth. Right, because the first mask looks fake. Then he takes it off. It's a perfect Neeson with the tape underneath the lips. Like instead of teeth, essentially. Right, it's crazy. And then there's the lips. Like instead of teeth, essentially. Right. It's crazy. Right. And then there's the mask. I fucking rule. That's pretty

cool. Yeah. I always like that with masks. Can I tell a true Hollywood story? Please. A true Hollywood story lookalike thing? Sure. I'm going to tell this as quickly as possible. Okay. So back when I was a younger person, I would occasionally look like Christopher Reeve. Yes. Reeves? Reeve. Reeve, right?

What a burden i i remember i know you poor motherfucker so i remember i when i when i bought my first house ever in in los angeles right i i it had a jacuzzi and i inherited the cool guy who would come to the jacuzzi so this guy living shows up one day and i go uh looking motherfucker and i say um i say hey oh hi thanks my name is my name is chris um how are you and he he looked at me strangely uh and so this was after chris reeves had had this you know terrible accident yeah so he was he looked at me he read like i really gave him the willies yeah um and i'm like oh that's weird i kind of went back later and later i got the uh i got the uh bill for his services and it said christopher rivas right because he was a mexican guy who had

spelled reeves the way that he yes phonetically and i realized this guy thought that i was christopher reeves reeve but that reeve yeah that he but that christopher reeve has been putting on yes this accident the entire time it's almost like Darkman coming to fucking Francis McDormand being like I'm here I'm fine

yep which he does do which he does do I'm not dead I'm just wounded and insane that must have been mind-blowing

where he's like did he get better and no one knows about it yet or is this a put on this is like a huge conspiracy well you know these Hollywood folks they're always pretending to be injured and stuff it's all part of their process I got one more thing one knows about it yet or is this like a huge conspiracy you know what these hollywood folks they're always pretending yeah they're weird and stuff it's all i got one more thing you can cut

this out of this is too no we'll keep it in double um okay don't say that alex will do it triple so then there's chris reeves again once i haven't told this on the podcast before but but but actually the apartment that i rented before that right the cable guy came over to turn on the cable once and he said like hey you know who you look like? And I said, yeah, sometimes you might say Christopher Reeve because people say that sometimes. Like, yeah, you really look like him. And he said, you know what you should do? You should call up the studio and say that, you know, you can keep on making Superman movies.

I know you guys are sweating this, but right. I look just like him. And I said, I don't, well, I don't think that would work. I know you guys are sweating this, but right. I look just like him. Yeah. And I said, I don't, well, I don't think that would work. I don't think it'd be a good idea.

I'm not really what I, what I, what I do is like, no, you should really do that. And I was like, I mean, I guess, thanks,

I guess, but I'm not going to do that. Then he looked at me and said, man, it's sad when people give up on their dream, man. It's sad when people give up on their dream, man.

It's sad when people give up on their dream. Man, it's sad when people give up on their dream. He thinks he's like, you want it. You don't have the guts. His dream became yours. Yes. And you were letting it down. You were lying to yourself. Okay, sorry for interrupting.

No, no, no. Dark Man. No, I'm just trying to... I mean, obviously, then he is Dark Man. Right. And he is... He does find Julie, and he convinces her he was in a coma, not dead.

He sets up a... You know, he gets an apartment, lab. He puts... Sort of, you know, work from home. But I can only do a shorthand. Right. He puts Ted Raimi up a manhole and gets him knocked over by a car. That's pretty fun.

Very cartoony. I mean, that's what Dorman said is like, he would direct me and he'd be like, I want you to fall down and then spring back up like this. And he'd be like, Sam, that's not how bodies of humans are. And then you watch him do this with his brother, and it's like, he just has this little brother where it's like, hey, Ted, let someone pick you up by the legs and swing you around like you're fucking meat on a stick. But, so yeah, I mean, like,

I don't know that we need to go beat by beat on Darkman after that. It's a lot of crime fighting and stuff, but what do you want to focus on? What the movie builds to is like, does this guy have superpowers? beyond you know his ability with this technology and it's like no it feels like the thing is this just kind of broke him right he's got mega adrenaline power yes right yes and he can't feel pain and he's in so he's right he's good at fighty fighting but also he's

like gone insane like it's this thing at the end of the movie where he's like, I'm a monster now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like not a person. I don't think the same way. Right. I think another power that no one, they're not taking advantage of this as like an aspect of the character,

like a detail, is that he's got a stink. Yeah. He must smell terrible. He must stink. I mean, he's got open wounds. I know. You do have...

I was worried about secondary infection. Because fine, he doesn't feel pain. I thought a good little detail was when he becomes a bald guy, he sprays after shave. And I feel like to cover up that he is rank as hell. We don't see him in full fucked up face mode too many times.

Obviously most of his bandage. But I do love the design. It's so good. And it's so good and it's really nasty it's really like the way the way that the muscles yeah yeah yeah yeah i know to me and by about the middle i'm thinking actually this is a movie because once he starts dating francis mcdormand again and takes her on these weird dates like very weird and stuff like that yeah not nice quiet i can't spend the night um uh it's really about a guy who is afraid that his trauma it's it's like psychologically speaking someone who who is afraid to show his weaknesses

and trauma yes yes significant other yeah right yeah and it's both he's like i don't think you'll still love me if you see the real me and there's the physical level of it which is obvious and surface level but it also is this shit of like he's like emotionally unbalanced now like he cannot control his rage yeah he's a madman he's a madman he's a he's a darkman he's gone mad he's a darkman he is a darkman that's true um yeah i just think the circus scene then not the circus but the the carnival yeah yeah he's just like that shot of him with the thing well that fucking shot which i feel like has kind of become the dark man image yes in a weird way online where people like didn't people know about this movie like i've seen that image passed around what incredible fucking expressionist is filmmaking that just feels like a weird dicko splash page or something you know absolutely um but also just the

bizarreness of that scene ne Neeson's performance, like him understanding there is comedy to this, and the comedy comes from me giving this the absolute greatest amount of Neeson gravitas. And doing it in this surrounding, this incongruous setting, with this guy over this elephant, and then the graphics behind me

amping it up even more. You're looking at me askance. It makes sense that he's Darkman. He is Darkman. Because he needs to be in the dark. Dr. Pitmuss. He's out at night. It's just weird that Batman's Batman.

Bats are like this big. It's just like there was only a few superheroes, and the guy was like, I'm nailing bats now. It wasn't right. Do you want to go down this road, David? It's just weird. I don't like bats. I mean, I i admire them or what but like if there was

a bat coming at me i would also go like do you know who's also a batman dr michael morbius we don't say this enough people like to describe him as a living vampire but you watch that movie he's kind of more of a bat man he is a literal bat and man bat man batman doesn't ever use echolocation does he well you know nolan has him dr michael morbius fucking does dr michael morbius there's so many shots where they zoom in on his ears and the little hairs like prick up in his ears they do that i missed that trick he's got morbius hearing but um but uh you know in the nolan in the dark knight uh nolan has batman have this like sonar device remember Oh, yeah. Which was kind of...

It's a good bit. I know you don't love this. And, you know, actually, Val Kilmer's Batman in Batman Forever uses a sonar thing once. Oh, yes. He does it with his own voice. He's like... That would be cool if he had to go like... What if that's Pattinson's big note on the sequel?

Like, he comes in and he's like... Oh, he's a little bat. Right. Now I'm going to do the eating. At least one Batman has slept upside down, right? I'm not misremembering that. Yes, that's the Keaton bit. Or is that like a yogic thing

to send blood to his brain? Maybe, but it's a fucking gag. I loved it in the first Burton movie. Vicky sleeps over and she wakes up in the middle of the night and he's not there and she looks and he's hanging upside down by his feet on the bedpost um yes it does rule yeah pattinson should do that shit anyway i'm sorry for bringing up batman uh dark man what else does dark man do there's the elephant what no i was just gonna say can we do a full sort of

fashion rundown of the look then because i just think there are a lot of things going on here yeah let me pull up his entire I'm going to pull him up too because I think right off the bat the bandages are great they're so dirty and they start getting more DIY and a little mummy

the other character he's kind of riffing on here is the unknown soldier the return of Martin Gamer who had a similar look with the bandages he's got the bandages like this guy who was assumed dead and can take on different identities yeah but yeah obviously bandage is crucial now next he's got a hat like the layout of the bandages is really good ben like you were saying like it's just sort of well like it's wrapped around the head the eyes are exposed and then it's like it's wrapped around the head. The eyes are exposed. And then it's like,

it's, and there's a nose bridge. Right. Right. Yeah. And it brings up kind of just like one, like sort of like narrower strap up his nose. Uh,

and then he's also got them on the hands. He's got some leather gloves, but he also looks cool with fucking mummy. And they're all like, yeah. Dangly. He doesn't steal new bandages. He doesn't,

he doesn't replace his bandage. He doesn't like, are you worried about the dressing? I'm also worried a little bit. Like you should have some, some, uh, dangly. He doesn't steal new bandages. He doesn't replace his bandages. Are you worried about the dressing? I'm also worried a little bit. Like, you should have some antibiotic cream. They get worse the longer the movie goes on. Like, they look rancid. But I think the lines of the bandages are really good.

And then as he fights more and the bandages come undone, whenever he has that sort of half bandaged look, like, anytime you see another inch of his face exposed. It's worse. It's always just well done. Yeah. Yeah. Great long trench coat.

Yeah. Let's talk about this. Especially in the daytime when he's on the roof, he pops. What do you call this thing on this coat where it's like, it's got the weird shoulder thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, I do.

It's like the cape thing? Yeah. Is it an iniskelin? It's like what Sherlock Holmes had. holmes had right yeah correct i don't remember the exact term but it is for like the a trench coat type of coat yes right they have those sometimes jet black yep like this this bright red oxford shirt underneath right and then how do you top it off then a little little tilted fedora. Yeah, a little hat. Yeah, of course. A big hat, actually.

And sometimes switch it out for a metal fucking funnel. A rusty metal funnel. And do a little dance for a monkey. Do you think that's why Durant hates him? Because Durant really needs a hat for his weird little haircut. And he's like, this fucker's got a great hat. And Durant describes it as my weird little haircut. Get me a fucking hat for this weird little haircut.

I know he talked about the teeth already. Also, I like just the one eye being more fucked up. And his skin kind of like... Wait, is there something up with him? Is he okay? He got pushed into goo. And then exploded and tossed in the fucking river.

His teeth look terrible when he's Darkman, but then when he is Liam Neeson again, he brushes his teeth properly, I guess. And then somehow they become gross again. I want to see the tooth machine. It's like popcorn. It's like, boop, boop, boop.

They want it at a time and you have to load them in. The teeth only last 90 minutes. I love the gag whenever they do when the face is starting to deteriorate and they have whatever it is, like the sort of like the inflation of the prosthetics where the face starts bubbling. Yes, that's really good. Yeah, it's great the way they dissolve. I actually think the little amoeba that you see in the microscope, I think they achieve that effect really well. Yeah.

And it's unsettling whenever someone chases him and they're like, where'd the guy go? And they look on the ground and there's just flesh dissolving. Yeah. I like Darkman. Good guy. I'm pro-Francis McDormand, even though this is a sort of, you know, whatever. I like Larry Drake.

Enjoy Ted Raimi. Yeah. Big fan of Eddie Black played by Jesse Long. Colin Friel's is Louis Strack Jr. A little underwhelming. Not doing a lot for me. No. No offense to the man.

Thankless. And I wonder, you know, I wonder about an actor in his position at that point. He's married to Judy Davis? That's right. He's an Australian actor. They're still married. They've been married longer than I've been alive.

No, he's Scottish born, but Australian raised. A lethal combination. Yeah. No, this is the kind of thing where you it's a poison pill right you get this you get this and it's tough because he's like the the final boss and you're like no you aren't you know like right i think it's hard to do something interesting with this part but also his performance is a little bit off the rack and in order for this to have any juice you kind of know from the moment he's set up, this guy's going to be a problem.

He doesn't exist just to take Francis McDormand out on chase dates, right? There has to be a reason he's in this movie. Right, and they're trying to hide it, but you're like, you can't hide it. You want to be a little more seductive and charming. I like that they did it in Venom, where the other guy is actually kind of a great guy. That is one of the funniest things about Venom. And that they keep it up in Venom 2 is really funny.

But he's still around. And he's like, all right, what's the matter with you? I'll help you out. Yeah. You're talking about that. Right. Yeah. Excellent choice, I think.

Incredible choice. This guy has the power of amazing balance, too. Because you find it at the very end. Very good on those girders. He used to go and work on building sites and that he has amazing balance. He's doing, like, pirouettes. Yeah.

I do obviously like Darkman killing him. I love it. Because Strack tries to be like, you would never, come on, you're a good guy. I don't see what he bases his you would never do such a thing. It's true, because Darkman seems crazy.

I would definitely not be like, come on, let me appeal to your rational heart bandage goo man right but more even doing that provoking where it's like you don't have it in you because you know that you're and whereas i would have all been all about like listen this is an important moment in your life right now you've got to make a decision about who you're going to be from from this point on even though you're dangling like by one foot yeah what kind of person are you dangling like a niece yeah that's it is the weird like i mean we we record our simple plan episode which hasn't come out yet but i was sort of comparing it to the evil dead movies and that all of them are about this sort of and i think this is a theme with rami it's like is there a moment that can fundamentally break a person to the point of

no return whether it's an act of choice or a thing that happens to a traumatic thing. And, like, how do you recover from that? And can your humanity be restored from that? You know? These sort of, like, biblical sort of things that can be thrust upon a person. And it's interesting that Spider-Man is the ultimate, like, with great power comes great responsibility. Here's a guy who a thing happens to and he constantly rises to the occasion he struggles he has internal drama but that is ultimately has such a clear that's why stanley is so brilliant right like it's like this guy's

super powered and i'm like love it i would love to be super and he's like but you see what's important is he decides to use it like responsibly and, you know, not just use it frivolously. Up until that point, almost every Raimi story had this sort of, like, Edgar Allan Poe-esque, like, and then they never recovered. Right. You know? And I do think there's this thing with Darkman where his final thing is he's like, no, what I just realized in letting that guy die

is, like, I'm fucking Darkman now. He is Darkman. I can't go back to just pretending to be Dr. Peyton Wesley. He's everyone and no one. He's everyone and no one. He's everywhere and nowhere. We should mention that too. I know we've said this in other episodes, but originally when Remy was setting this up, he was like, obviously it will star Bruce Campbell.

Like, my assumption is I always work with Bruce Campbell. Yes, so Bruce Campbell of course, he sort of talked about it at a certain point is like, Sam, I have to step out of the way you are going to sabotage your career insisting on me being the star of all your movies like i am not but it's like incredibly noble very touching friend thing it gets repaid on the next movie

with army of darkness but of course bruce campbell does show up as we're as you're referencing the final show of this movie he's the new darkman, right? He's his new face. It's kind of a cute little thing. The Shemp thing, because I know we've thrown this turnaround, but I haven't explained it. Raimi obviously is such a student of the Three Stooges.

Yeah. Shemp, the least loved Stooge, died and they had these unfinished shorts that they had to get guys, lookalikes, sort of like the Bela Lugosi dentist in Ed Wood, where you could shoot it from certain angles and fake the thing. And Bramie loved that so much in spotting the fake Shemp

that he would, like, on the Evil Dead movies, be like, we lost this actor. Get someone else in there. Put a wig on him. Turn him from an angle. They're a fake Shemp. You fit him in. So you always see the credits.

Shemp. These credits is the Shemp. Bruce Campbell is at the end. Bruce Campbell's final Shemp. Ah, that explains it. I was wondering. Right. So he loves this idea of the quick slapdash double thrown in for a specific insert shot

or whatever it is. And then Darkman is essentially a movie about chimps. And he does sort of like give Bruce the honorific of like, you're the final shimp. Especially with the thing of like you were saying, like, okay, you can't be my movie star forever. Right. But a little. Right.

Now, did you see the additional thing? I did. I think JJ put in so bruce campbell's wife had just divorced him he said he was broke i don't know what to do with himself i guess it's 1990 he's not quite in like briscoe downing county junior yet right and so sam is like look we're doing post on dark man i have all sorts of problems we both love sound the movie needed tons of sound effects and so I made studio guy money voicing every criminal who fell to their death.

He just would scream his brains out for every, you know, all of that. I love that. I love their friendship. That's really... There was a point where Sam was like, shit, I need Darkman to yell Julie. And he looked at him and said,

get in the booth. So a lot of that. Yeah. So a little bit of the dark man ADR is Campbell and I said I think he did it for foreign countries as well yeah he did the television looping whatever that means go over curse words sure

right right wait like Chris just did yeah yeah yeah he's a donut all right so yeah some of the post-production fighting Hanukkah right Universal insisted it be at least 95 minutes long and Remy was like okay drama queens fine I'll give you

10 more minutes but they also brought in their own editor Bud Smith they tried to get Sam out of the process and wanted to cut it into a romance movie

why did I just why did my body just limp and wanted to cut it into a romance movie. Why are you making, I feel like that's less work. Why did I just, why did my body just limp as I heard about someone bringing in an editor? It seemed like you were melting a little bit down. I don't know, it's almost as though, like I remembered another life. It's sort of this weird thing where like, it didn't test amazing, Sam's version,

but then the more universal meddled with it, the test scores were just going down. It was one of these things where they were like, it tested in the high 60s, low 70s, or whatever. And they were like, fuck, can we punch it up? So then they bring in the wrong guys, do a cut, it goes to 50. And they're like, let's cut it some more, 40.

They were like, every single test went down and they would not give us back control of the movie. This is the fucking turn on this story that I cannot believe. Robert Taper, is this who you're talking about without studio approval cooked up a scheme to bring the film closer to the director's vision which remained secret to the public for 30 years so this interview is from 2020 uh taper says i don't mind saying this now sam will probably be unhappy but the studio said there's nothing we can do to save this picture. Let's lock this awful cut. So this insane thing, we've talked about this before, but where studio executive development people refuse to move backwards.

So if you're like, we had a movie that was testing better two months ago. We refuse to release that earlier cut. We have to release the latest one, our lowest testing thing. And we're just deciding we're giving up and just, that's what goes out. So they locked picture he knew there was a deadline like they're gonna lock picture tomorrow at 10 p.m or or it has to be delivered by friday at 9 a.m or whatever it was so then sam's editor bob muraw muraw muraw yes who's like his editor through the spider-man movies drag me to hell yes he's not credited on

this movie obviously yeah uh said there's a much better movie we could do so they spent 48 hours recutting the entire movie added nine minutes back in things that previous preview audiences had maybe like you know whatever rejected right they were like this is the best version of the movie they locked it universal they didn't tell anybody universal comes to watch it after the mix and they were like what the fuck you're not allowed to do this and they were like nothing to be done negative has been cut critic screenings are in 48 hours and universal was like okay and they just had to release it but they also said tom pollack who was the head of universal at that time like screamed at them was like fucking irate like they truly just like swapped out they did a switcheroo they did a switcheroo and just made

them watch it and they were like what the fuck happened and like ozymandias they were like the print went out yesterday there's nothing you can do uh sam on his own tapered says probably would not have done it but i am that kind of guy yeah couldn't do it today physically no you physically yeah so those 48 hours must have been gnarly yeah first of all because you're cutting actual film this is pre-avid yeah

if you did it today you just go back to version right just be like call up Friday's version right yeah that is

right you're saying like they actually are like there's film strip there is film strip it's gone would you do just a little scissors

like you did all that snip snip would I tape whatever it is whatever it is they do in there would I would I make that sound Would you do just a little scissors like you did all that? Snip, snip. Would I? Whatever it is. Whatever it is they do in there. Sim, sim.

Would I make that sound? Yeah, sure. No, no, no. When you were starting, you were still editing on film, right? No. No? Like American Pie was not editing. American Pie was avid, was a very slow avid, but we still had to send out things like dissolves to the lab for opticals.

Oh, that's funny. Right? So you couldn't, you couldn't, it couldn't render the dissolves quickly enough. Hey, Larry Drake, Durant himself. Sure. I did a rewatch of the four theatrical films recently, and I forgot.

The four theatrical American pie movies? Correct. So pie, pie two, wedding, reunion. Correct. Right, okay. Larry Drake in? Larry Jake plays the father of the girl that Jim sleeps with at the beginning of the movie where the bit is first college hookup and parent visiting day.

In American Pie 2. Yes, I know you didn't direct this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just... But Chris, you're a producer on that movie. You had a lot going on in that movie, right? You had your fingers deep in the pie. We were in London shooting

About a Boy. My executive producing functions on that were minimal. That film was, of course, J.B. Rogers. J.B. Rogers, fantastic guy. Our first A.D. on American Pie. That's a funny sequence. It was the trailer for the movie.

I do remember that sequence. That was the big one they were selling it on. Jim's awkwardly trying to hook up for the movie i do remember that sequence that was the big one they were selling it on right yeah right jim's like awkwardly trying to hook up for the first time since michelle and he's like really nervous about it in college and it's parent visiting day and one by one everyone walks there and durant is the final return return oh my word what's happening here i just like him as like irate scary dad you don't want to see when you're in bed with a naked woman. Well, I remember I saw that movie in Old Forge, New York, which is in the Adirondacks with like my cousins.

I must have been, you know, seriously. So when is the American Pie 2? Is it 2001? Yeah. So I must have been 15. Yeah. And I was like, I just remember packed house. Yeah.

We were on summer vacation or whatever. Pandemonium. Fucking pandemonium. Like, that movie could have literally just been Stifler throwing up for 90 minutes, and people would have just been like, this is great. It's just like, that movie, I don't think hangs together perfectly, I would say, in my memory. I like it. I'm not just saying this.

I know you didn't make this movie, so it doesn't matter. I think one is the best. I think one is the best. It's someone who watched all four in one evening. I think I was recovering from surgery, and for whatever reason, I was like, I'm going to watch all four American Pies. You were on Strong Painkillers. Yes. And Chris, one was famously put on in my math class when I was 14 years old at the end of school when it was one of those days where it's like there's only a week left to school.

Oh, my goodness. And my math teacher, Mr. Naj, was a sweet, sweet man who I think let some kid talk him into American Pie. It's cute. It's about kids. And then when it got to the scene where he comes twice in front of Shannon and Elizabeth, I remember Mr. Nudge just doubled over laughing at his desk being like, twice? Like it got him.

You know what's funny? You talk about what a cultural phenomenon the movie was and how Two was greeted with like, our heroes have returned from. We get to see our friends again. Right. Two is like maybe the only other movie I can think of that does the Downton Abbey movie approach where the poster doesn't have actors names above it. The poster for two is the entire cast is Jim, Stifler, Jim's dad, the Shermanator.

Yeah. It's just like fucking 15 names as if it's Avengers and the game, but it's just, have you seen the Downton Abbey, a new era trailer? Yes. You know, the Hugh Bonneville says you're the captain now to Michelle Dockery in that

trailer. Wow. Have you picked up on that? Yeah. What if I watch that? And only that, like I've never seen an episode of the show. I didn't see the first movie. What if I

just go into it? You'll get it. I'll get it. Marketing shows that people like teams reuniting, especially if it's under a captain. Right. Yes. Okay, so can we fit that in? Who can be the captain now? Okay. Barkat Opti should be part of it. He should be. He should go to downtown. And Gene Hackman

also. That should be the end credits cookie of Downton Abbey should be like her sitting in her captain's chair, putting on her hat going like, okay, I think I'm finally settling to this role as captain. He walks out of the shadows and goes, excuse me, I'm the captain now. The movie came out, Darkman.

I'm just going to wrap this up. Sure. In August, late August, 1990. A classic spot for a movie like this. Yeah, absolutely. It's like, okay. It came out at night or in the afternoon. I think it came out at night.

I don't know. The first film to be given no matinees. Open number one, $8 million. Everyone was happy. Yeah. It was truly like a fuck you, Universal. You were wrong. People wanted to see this.

Everyone made money. It got pretty good reviews. It spawned direct to video sequels, as we've discussed. I do like Sam Raimi's quote here, which is, as a writer, I'm thrilled the Darkman character lives on. As a director, I'm horrified

someone has taken my baby and made money selling him to children. And as a producer, I think it's good for Universal to be doing this because they're taking their assets and making quality pictures for the video crowd. So it's like the three sides of Raimi, right? I don't know. I mean, how do you...

Do you get checks on American Pie 8 or whatever? No. Because Raimi does. That's what he's saying. He's like, I can't deny I'm making money. Adam Herz does, right? I hope he does. Yeah.

We get checks on American Pie 2 sometimes. Because you have the credit. But not after that you don't get Bandcamp, you don't get Girls Rule you don't get Book of Love you don't get Naked Mile does the pie lobby sort of kick back to you guys?

cherry blueberry every time someone has sex with a pie I get one cent so I encourage people to do that. I will say I fucked a pie the other day and immediately got a Venmo request from you. It was like immediate. The second after I came, it was like right there.

I have to give Chris a penny. Anyway. All right. Let's do the box office game for August 24th, 1990. Number one at the box office, Griffin. It's Darkman. Darkman. Eight million dollars. A monster. The final gross, $32 million

$50 worldwide The huge home video cable movie Like you said Big HBO movie Number two at the box office It's the phenomenon of the summer It's been out for seven weeks It's gonna win two Oscars Be nominated for best picture Is the summer. It's been out for seven weeks. It's going to win two Oscars.

Be nominated for Best Picture. Is it Ghost? It's Ghost. Yeah. What if there was a ghost? I'll say this. I found Ghost to be a pretty good first wordle guess. Oh, yeah, sure.

I've been using Ghost a fair amount of times. I use Sonar. I use Bread. I was using Audio. I was using Audio, and I was advised maybe you're using too sonar. I use bread. I was using audio. I was using audio and I was advised maybe you're using too many vowels.

By the way, do you remember the famously difficult one K-M-O-L-L? Yeah. That was nasty. I got that in two. All right.

Fucker. I lucked out with my first guess. I got beaten up by watch. The one that beat up a lot of people. I did the classic like catch, match.

I kept guessing other actions. I had one of those the other day. That is a tough one. Yeah, where I had four out of five and the third one was the one I kept guessing other actions I had one of those the other day where I had four out of five and the third one was the one I didn't have and I was like it could be four things and I have three guesses left Ghost what do you think of Ghost

I really liked Ghost when I saw it I haven't seen it in 20 years I know I could be like this is super schlocko but you know what it was a ghost I've never seen Ghost. You've never seen Ghost? I've always had the suspicion

that I would love it. The thing with Ghost, in my opinion, and it's been a while since I've seen it, is the stuff where he's a ghost and this sort of weird, like the subway train,

like Patrick Swayze walking around and stuff is pretty well done. Yeah. And it's kind of a weird, creepy movie in ways. The romance stuff is so hard on sleeve,

straightforward. But I'm a fan. It's easy easy to mock the contrarian and the goose tony goldwyn and then of course what the kills right the the good looking he has a nasty death that kind of traumatized me as a kid spoiler alert what happens to him does he get ghosted he gets like impaled on a broken window. He just keeps texting and he's like, are you on vacation or something? And then a bunch of ghosts grab him. It's cool. Impaling, also very big. Missing Elevators, Quicksand, Impaling. Impaling is a big one, yeah.

All right, number three, speaking of ghosts, is another movie about death. It's another movie about death. Starring a lot of hot young actors. Flatliners. I know this. Flatliners. Yes, it's Flatliners.

Yes! You somehow didn't hear Griff say it, so you got it. I know this. Flatliners. Yes, it's Flatliners. Yes! You somehow didn't hear Griff say it, so you got it. I said it quite fast. You got it. You're so fast. You got it honestly. It's Flatliners.

No, no, no. But give me the cast of Flatliners in 1990 with their feathered hair. Kiefer. Kiefer Sutherland. Julia. Julia Roberts. Patrick in this as well?

No. Kevin Bacon. Right. Billy Baldwin. And the sexiest of them all Oliver Platt They're all flatlining They're all flatlining

That's a Schumacher It was a real, it was an epidemic in America The kids today can't stop flatlining They're calling it flatlining Have not seen flatliners in a very long time Don't really remember flatliners What do you think of flatliners? I very long time don't really remember flatliners what do you think of flatliners i think it was bad i thought it was bad when i saw it you know what i

watched recently another box check for me saint elmo's fire another joel schumacher that movie is fucking terrible you gave that like a stinky one star letterbox right and like you want i think i did and you watch it and you're like i guess I can see how this was like a mini culture phenomenon or whatever, but it's so bad. It's like a real, like if I'm a Gen Xer, I'm like, what the fuck? This is the movie of my generation. But then, can I both agree?

Schumacher has movies that fully rule. He was a very odd, inconsistent filmmaker. But he took big swings. He's encouraging a lot of big emotion, I think, on set most of the time. And sometimes that matters. All right, number four at the box office. It's a legal thriller that I believe we discuss on a future episode.

It is really good. Major movie star. It's a really good legal thriller that we discuss on a future episode. It's not The Firm, although that is a great film. It's not The Verdict. It's not The Verdict. By the way, you film It's not The Verdict It's not The Verdict

By the way, you were right the other day That is an amazing film One of the greatest movies ever made It's a major, major movie We just discussed it I think we discussed it yesterday My time bleeds here Yesterday

Oh, uh Is it Billy Bobbin? Is that why it came up? Don't think so Is Pauly Shore in it? No It's probably the number one movie The number one movie starring America

It's A Few Good Men? Nope, not Tom Cruise Tom Hanks? Nope Harrison Ford Harrison Ford is being presumed innocent. Yes. Our guest brought this up. Is that the one, though,

where his wife removes the used condom? Correct. Bonnie Bedelia takes his condom. Cum burglars. That's a future joke. Yes. But yeah, Dennehy, Raul Julia. That's a call forward for our listeners

classic you know Harrison Ford's like I had sex and I regret it movie hashtag cum burglars I want people building anticipation of number five of the box office this week is a comedy

written by someone we've discussed on this podcast that is sort of famously, well, I'm not going to say more, but it stars two comedy icons. And we discussed the writer. The writer's not a performer. No, she's a director, but she didn't direct this.

She's a director. She didn't direct this. She did write it. She did write it. It stars two comedy icons. It's not My Blue Heaven, write it. It stars two comedy icons. It's not My Blue Heaven, is it? It's My Blue Heaven. Steve Martin,

Rick Moranis. We brought her up today? No, not today. I'm just saying we discussed her. Oh, okay. I was confused. My wife and children

were allowed into The Music Man, albeit late. Okay. They missed the first number or whatever. Yeah, but isn't that like one of the best ones?

Isn't that Gary and Anna? They always phone the first number or whatever. Yeah, but isn't that like one of the best ones? Isn't that Gary and Yannick? They always phone the first number. Gary and Yannick comes later. You know, the 11 o'clock number, that's your... Yeah. All right. The first number that shows like... No, no.

See, that's when he entered. I'm saying the first number that shows something like, this town is normal. Nothing has happened. Nothing happens here. No one's using men to be a sin. No one's personality. They might do an encore. Yeah. They'll do the first song or something. Nothing happens here. No personality. They might do an encore.

They'll do the first song or something. You could ask. Michael Bay style. Ask them to roll it back and do your favorite part. From the top. First number in the Music Man, of course, is Rock Island. Look how fast you are on the keyboard. It's insane. Number six at the box office.

It's one of those numbers where they're like, this is our town. It's fine. Number six at the box office is The Exorcist 3 numbers where they're like, this is our town. It's fine. They miss it. Number six of the box office is The Exorcist 3, which we will discuss on this fucking podcast one day. God damn it. Great Exorcist 3 trivia is that, okay, what famous Knicks player appears in The Exorcist 3?

Let's see. It's 1990. Bernard King. Patrick Ewing. Patrick Ewing plays the Angel of Death in a dream sequence. Oh, yes. I do know this yeah I do know that

I just took a guess because he was at Georgetown at the time of course okay he was truly the only 90s Knicks player I could name I got lucky on that one but now I remember

yeah number seven is Men at Work Charlie Sheen and Emilio Estevez are at work I just want to call out not to move backwards

but just because anytime I get the chance I like to remind people I'd like to move forwards, but okay. There was a movie written by Nora Ephron that is essentially a sequel to Goodfellas in which Steve Martin plays. That was going to be my clue.

It's kind of a comedy companion to a movie. When you tell people that, they cannot fucking believe it. I know, it's crazy. Number eight at the box office. And they come out the same year. Yeah. Number eight at the box office is, of course, James Belushi, Charles Grodin.

What are they doing? Mr. Destiny? No. No, they're taking care of business. Taking care of business. That was the clue. What are they doing? What are they doing? Every day.

Jim got to make so many comedies. Kind of a forgotten, but when I was a kid, a cable classic, in a way, Air America, Mel Gibson, Robert Downey Jr. Right. Smuggling heroin by mistake, maybe,

into, like, South America. No, into Vietnam. Right, yeah. Tim Thomerson. Is that the director? No, Tim Thomerson is a sort of B-movie actor. Incredible name. Usually has a kind of a handlebar mustache.

Yes, he is in it. Wow. Tim Thomerson. Well known for his work as Jack Death in the Trancers films. Yeah, well known. Number 10, Nick Roeg's The Witches. Terrified an entire generation.

A film that was remade perfectly. Of course. So that's your top 10. So it's a weird top 10 where it's like, you know, Ghost and Exorcist and stuff where they're hanging out. Nothing really is new except for Darkman and Men at Work. Darkman got to eat. Good week to come out.

The next weekend, Ghost gains 33% and takes number one back. Ghost was such a fucking finale. Darkman makes the exact same amount of money. But Ghost just surges again. In week six? In week eight fuck the week after that ghost still on top in week nine finally it's knocked off in week 10 by postcards from the end yeah it's wow people just like it was one of

those things i mean it just doesn't really happen anymore in the same way but the tank thing where people were just like, the emotions this movie makes me feel, I need to go back and experience it again. Right? Where it was like this element of rewatchability

of just like, this thing fucking grabbed my heart and I want to have that catharsis over and over and over again. I like pottery. People loved pottery in the 90s. They did.

And unchained melodies. Yes. The melodies had been so chained for decades leading up to it. These burdened melodies. So burdened. David has closed the lap. I've closed the lap. Wrap it up. Yeah, you think we should end the episode?

Yeah, I think so. Chain this melody. Chain this melody. Chris. You guys. What a guy. Thank you for having me. What a guy. White Sea, you're the best. Glad to have you back. I'm glad to be back. I'm glad to be here. And what is the name of this place the haza liam the haza liam the haza liam it's great to be here um i just want to call it because we've talked about this on the show before but for people who

don't know is announced that you and your brother are going to make a movie about the production of spanish dracula we will which is one of my favorite like objects in film history which your grandmother was my grandmother was a silent film actress who was recruited from Mexico Lupita Tovar and was brought to America to be in silent films and then like in the movie The Artist

the talkies came along she was shit out of luck but she was dating my grandfather who worked at Universal and convinced Carl Laemmle to make Spanish language movies

on the sets of English language movies from midnight onwards while the American crews weren't working it's like an incredible story and it's an amazing film that's a brilliant idea

right it is really good some people say and it seems like such an obvious thing than the Todd Brown. It is really good. Some people say it's better than the Todd Browning movie because they actually like fixed its mistakes. They would watch the film

They could see they could see Daley's some people especially me my brother and my uncle Poncho say that. No but I think that's like

the film had been lost for a while and now it's back in like regular circulation it's easy to watch and I think a lot of people believe that it's the superior film. The weird thing about the Todd Browning movies

is there's no music. Have you seen the Todd Browning movies? Yes. I went to a screening of it once and there's no score. There's the overture.

But then once the movie starts it's like deathly silent. And it's just kind of Dracula walking around and you're like, this is weird without a score. It's not bad. It's unsettling.

But it is. People have written scores for it post fact that yeah it's different uh anyway i'm very excited to see i just feel like that i've never seen the spanish uh it's great uh and i think that project is the kind of nerdy shit that fans of this show will be very excited to see thank you first i'm gonna make a horror movie yeah i'm gonna make a movie about a horror movie go make a movie and then make a real metal are you making the movie with your brother is that yes yes we'll be back together it'll be from the guys who brought you american it's been way it's it's been too much of a singular from a guy get money if someone says milf i'm not sure if that wasn't already established and i think that'd be Adam Herz if he actually did that.

Did that movie invent Milford or is it just like popularized? I had this debate with someone the other day. I think it wasn't you. I think I've had this conversation with someone else in the last week. All right. We don't need to say we're going to recommend it. I keep bringing it up. Chris has made a lot of good movies.

I shouldn't keep making it up. Literally just like just talking about this really like interesting, eloquent. Yeah, but Milford. Can we talk about Milford? Let's talk about your grandma and then sorry no

it's great thank you for being here it's all great it's great to see you you're the best you're such a good friend of the show and we're always happy

to have you on main theater door's always open you don't have to wedge your foot in I don't maybe maybe sometime in the summer

do you like Stanley Kubrick do I like Stanley are you a fan of that guy he is a god well he won March Madness what do you got Barry Lyndon what's your favorite sure maybe sometime in the summer. Do you like Stanley Kubrick? Do I like Stanley Kubrick? Do you like Stanley Kubrick? He is a god. Well, he won March Madness. What do you got? Barry Lyndon? What's your favorite?

Sure. Is that your favorite? Yeah. It actually kind of is, yeah. And I also think it's probably an underappreciated one, so that won't probably block anybody else from some of the

more like... Chris, people are crawling all over the place. Chris, we're getting... Noted. They're on Barry Lyndon? No, I don't know. We're just hearing everybody's opinion.

We're going to tell you something wild the second we stop recording. But yes, look, let's have your reps talk to our reps. We'll enter negotiations on a potential Barry Lyndon episode. We'll see if we can make the time table. How many black and white cookies does it take? It's a fair amount, but you brought a good box today. It is good. Thank you for being

here. And thank you, and I'm shifting my focus over to the person listening, for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and

subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media. Alex Barron, AJ McKeon for our editing. Joe Bowen, Pat

Rollins for our artwork. JJ Birch, Nick Lariano for our research. And for the. Birch, Nick Lariano for our research and for the first time ever, a little bit of editorial on. What are you talking about, Sam? Just a little, what you talking about, Sam? He editorialized about Robert Tapered as well.

I thought it was funny. It was funny. I like J.J. again, a little saucy. Thank you to Lane Monk, Irene the Great American, Novel for our theme song. You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to all the nerdy things around the show that we do. And you can go to patreon.com slash blankcheck for blankcheck

special features where we're doing hashtag not all Batman movies that feature the Bartman. Or I guess, is Matrix almost? I don't know. I don't know where we are in this.

Whatever. Just listen. Go sign up. It's got good stuff, including paywalled Chris White's episodes from the past. Twilight Commentary still,

I still think that's one of the best things we've done. It's very good. No, you should say Griffin. Yeah. That, um, we are still doing the matrix.

Okay. About to close out. Resurrections. But, um, this month, our bonus episode, we're doing the evil dead remake.

We did the evil dead remake. Yes. Right. Which, uh, yeah, I think, I think it's a fun episode. We're doing the Evil Dead remake. We did the Evil Dead remake. Yes. Right, which, yeah, I think it's a fun episode. We talk a lot about sort of the state of horror remakes at that time and how things have shifted

to legacy sequels and talk a little bit about Ash versus the Evil Dead and all that sort of stuff. If you like the Evil Dead episodes, that's a fun thing to listen to. You can tune in next week as we go back to Ash

with Army of Darkness. Guess Eva Anderson. It's a really fun episode. And as always, give me the pink fucking elephant.