Blank Check with Griffin & David - Detroit with Black Men Can’t Jump In Hollywood

Episode Date: November 19, 2017

Jonathan Braylock, Jerah Milligan and James III, hosts of Black Men Can’t Jump In Hollywood podcast, join Griffin and David to discuss 2017’s period crime drama, Detroit. But was this a story that needed to be told? Is the racist white cop technically the lead? Were sections of this movie purposely shot like a horror movie? In the final installment of our mini series devoted to the filmography of Kathryn Bigelow, together, they discuss the many inconsistencies of this film, John Boyega, Blazing Saddles and more. This episode is sponsored by ProFlowers.

I need you to survive the podcast. What is that? John Boyega says that at one point. Okay. All right. Sure. We were struggling. That's a good one.

Cool. What does he need to survive? The night. Okay. Yeah. I remember that. It's a trailer one. There are only four quotes on the Detroit IMDb quotes page and the other three come from

the racist cop. Will Poulter. Right. And can not be reworded into funny podcast openings. I have so many thoughts on him. Wait till we get there. This is a whole movie of thoughts. Hello, everybody.

My name is Griffin Newman. I'm David Sims. And this is Blank Check with Griffin David. We are hashtag the two friends. And this is in terms of the number of people on mic the biggest episode we've ever done

yeah except for the live Revenge of the Sith one I guess but that was all people were dropping by this is the most that we're all on mic at the same time

the whole time the Rugrats are meeting the Wild Thornberries the Jetsons are meeting the Flintstones what else we got

what are some good crosswords the Ninja Turtles when theystones the Flintstones what else we got what are some good Ninja Turtles when they met the Power Rangers yeah when friends and mad about you didn't they cross over

they had Ursula when Urkel went to Full House yes when the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles met the Turtles

from different time periods yeah sure so you guys I don't know this isn't a time travel well I guess the Jetsons was time travel that was time travel it was only two factions different time periods. Yeah. Sure. So you guys are, wait, I don't know. This isn't a time travel.

Well, I guess the Jetsons was time travel. That was time travel. It was only two factions. It's bringing factions. Exactly. Right, right, right.

You're wrong, James. We've got factions going here. Two friends are meeting three friends today. This is, we, one of our favorite movie podcasts that we invoke a lot. We have had all three of these men on

as guests separately. That's right. And people were happy, but they said, okay, but when are you going to do the full on team up? Crossover. It's a crossover.

When are you going to blast our eardrums with too much yelling? Yeah. From a combination of six irritable people. Welcome to Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood. Hollywood City. I don't want to do it for this one. James.

Yeah, you're right. I don't want to do it for this one. You're right about that. You're right. We're just... Hello, hello. Hi. What is it?

That's the only thing that I could potentially do. He's doing a Detroit or something. What was the name of the group? Yeah, what was the group's name? The Dramatics. The Dramatics. They're real. They're a real group.

Great name. So this is Blank Check meets Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood. Yep. Is there a cool name? I've got to think of a cool name. Blank Men Can't Check in Hollywood? Sure. Done.

Done. We did it. I mean, it's in Hollywood? Sure. Done. Done. We did it. I mean, it's better than black check. Yeah, it's better than black check. You can't do that. Black check can't jump in Hollywood. Nor is it right. Yeah, it does.

It does. You could have called your podcast that. That makes sense. This is a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes the check's clear

and sometimes they bounce. Case in point. Case in point. This is a bouncer. This is a big bouncer from a woman who seemed to be on a real can't miss role. She seemed to have, after a real rocky career of ups and downs,

you know, she had found her footing yeah and had become a full force canonical people were like oh

major American film maker got a yeah what's this gonna be you know and we've done a couple mini series now in a row

where the people kind of get their groove back or even following up with someone like Shyamalan a year or two later. Sure. And he rebounds.

They finally figured it out, right? Right. They pulled out of the tailspin. When we decided to do a Catherine Bigelow miniseries, we thought the run was going to continue. That's true. We decided to do this before this movie came out. Right.

And we were like, oh yeah, she's got this big movie coming out in the summer. That'll be a good thing to peg it to. Right. And now it's a real bummer of a way to end the miniseries. Because it's a movie that is very frustrating on a number of levels.

And also just on release people were like ah. Nope. And then that was wildly unsuccessful. And it leaves a big question mark as to where her career is going to go next. If she's going to stay in the zone and try to correct, or if she's going to take another swing, because she's certainly someone who's shifted in terms of styles and genres before.

Sure. The movie we're talking about is Detroit, and we have, of course... And the miniseries is Pod 19, The Widowcaster. The miniseries is Pod 19, The Widowcaster. And we have John Braylock, James III, and Jerome Milligan. Yep. Here on the show tonight. Yeah.

I just clearly want to establish my voice for the listener. It's the one that sounds less irritated, but also... I haven't done anything yet. What are you doing? I haven't done anything. It's like smooth. It's the rational... Are you going to just say what our podcast is?

Are you going to do that intro? Are you going to do it? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just for those who don't know, Black Men Can't Jump, we review films starring leading black actors, and we talk about them in the context of race in Hollywood. So this would fall under. This falls under.

This falls under. But you guys hadn't done this movie. But we hadn't done this movie. Well, for any reason. Honestly, I fought very hard against it. Great. So much so that when this came up, Curlson episode I low key forgot the movie until I had to start

looking for it and my anger for it instantly came back yeah this is I feel like this is the kind of movie you always

are railing against on your podcast oh the thing is I can't wait to talk about it this movie literally ruined the first half of my morning

but I went on a walk got to center myself and now I feel calm cool see John thought I was going to yell when he did no no no I rode up in the elevator This movie literally ruined the first half of my morning, but I went on a walk, got to center myself, and now I feel calm. See, John thought I was going to yell when he did. No, no, no. I rode up in the elevator with James, and he was like, I just finished it. I finished it and then walked straight here.

And I sort of basically said like, I'm sorry. The last movie shooted before this was Zero Dark Thirty? Correct. That was like a long period of time that was five years ago four years ago 2012 five years ago and there was a weird series of things she almost did

I don't think it was an issue of her not being able to get a movie made I think it was her being indecisive about what she wanted to do well because it was that movie Triple Frontier that's now being made by someone else it was J.C. Chandor but he might have dropped out. They keep on switching the cast around. She announced right after Zero Dark Thirty, which was wildly successful.

Controversial, but made a ton of money. Controversial. But it made money and it got Oscar nominations and, you know. She won for that one, right? No, she won for Hurt Locker. Hurt Locker, gotcha. But the other big thing is Zero Dark Thirty is financed by Annapurna. Uh-huh. And Megan Ell Ellison who's got endless cash flow

right Megan Ellison's like I want to make movies that aren't like studio crap I want to make movies that are important but I think she's particularly proud of Zero Dark Thirty it was the most successful movie they had and everyone was like it'll never work

and it was a full-on like blockbuster. And so I think she's got a real blank check here. Megan Allison will bankroll whatever she wants to make. She almost does Triple Frontier. I think the cast was supposed

to be Johnny Depp, Tom Hanks, and Will Smith. At one point. At one point. It's in pre-production now. I'm looking at it. JC Shandor,

you're right. Mahershala. Mahershala, except now he's on the IMDb I feel like he was announced they announced at one point it was going to be Mahershala and the two Afflecks no Afflecks

right now the cast is Pedro Pascal Charlie Hunnam Mark Wahlberg Garrett Hedlund that's weird wow really but I think Mahershala

is definitely supposed to be in it I know he's now in True Detective she should have had a blank check after Point Break I mean let's think about it Detective. She should have had a blank check after Point Break. I mean, let's think about it. She did.

We talked about it. Oh, strange days. Strange days. Strange days, my friend. Which is the movie she made right after it which James Cameron, her ex-husband,

had this crazy deal at Fox off of Terminator 2 where they were like, we'll give you $600 million to make however many movies you want.

And he's like, cool, I'm going to take $70 million to make True Lies. We don't have to re-explain Strange Days. We don't have time for that. Come want. And he's like, cool. I'm going to take $70 million to make True Lies. We don't have to re-explain Strange Days. We don't have time for that. Come on.

But there's a lot of overlap between Strange Days and Detroit. Except Strange Days is a movie about police brutality. It's a movie about- It's a movie made in the wake of the LA riots. Right. It's a movie about an anxious city becoming violent. But it's not about a real incident

and it's also a sci-fi movie it's a sci-fi movie and it has yeah I don't know it has a big cast oh I remember this but it bombs really hard

and that's that was a check bounce took her while to recover from that right so she almost has triple frontier she sets up a show

at HBO that doesn't go and I think there are one or two other movies. The Bo Bergdahl movie, which became Serial Season 2. Right, which turns into Serial Season 2. Which is so weird. Because it's Mark Boll, her screenwriting collaborator, who is working on these things with her.

But it's that thing that sometimes happens when people have this much momentum is they become a little paralyzed by committing to one thing. Right. Sure. Because it always has to be great. Right. You can't fail. Exactly.

So then she lays her chips down on this. Uh-huh. On Detroit. But for a long time, no one really knew anything about it. They just said, okay, it's a movie about the Detroit riots. It's her and Bull.

Yeah. And then cast was starting to come out. Boyega was announced. Everyone assumed Boyega was the lead because he was hot off of Star Wars this is true but people didn't know the title they didn't know the plot

they didn't know the scope of the story until the trailer started coming out in the summer and very quickly people were like also it's like it doesn't need to be called Detroit okay thank you why did you call it Detroit well I think one problem they have is there's the book

called, I need to find, I want to find the exact title. But isn't the book solely about the actual hotel? Yes, but it's called The Algiers Motel Incident,

but they do not own the rights to that book. Okay, interesting. John Hersey refused to sell the rights, so they couldn't call it Algiers Motel

or anything like that. I think that was their one of their roadblocks. Now, of course, you might be thinking like I'm going to make a movie about the Algiers Motel and say, huh,

they want someone who writes the book. Maybe I shouldn't make the movie. Like, oh, maybe this is a bad idea. Right. Because this book is like the book apparently

is written by a white guy. But the thing about it is is that apparently it's like one of the most accurate and like Right. Thoroughly researched. Yeah, like respected

conversations about race weren't allowed to use it if that makes sense which is crazy if you have this book that's respected about this incident and that actually talks about race and the guy sees a problem maybe with your script or your movie maybe you should listen to the dude who

like black and white and people from Detroit actually valued right okay wait why what was the reason? Was there a stated reason why he didn't like it? I'm going to find a few because I think there is one. But I agree with you. I made this point on our Lincoln episode

and David said I was really petty for saying that, but I think it hurts that movie that it's called Lincoln because it's not about Abraham Lincoln. It's about the passing of that amendment. And I similarly think like, Lena Dunham got fucked over by calling that show Girls because people were like,

this is a show about all girls, you know? I felt like she was constantly asked to, like, represent everything. That's not the only problem with this movie. But this movie is not about Detroit. Not even a little bit. It's not about the Detroit ride. Not even a little bit.

I mean, really. It's about one specific incident. Yeah. The trailer made it seem like it was about the Detroit ride. The posters are the streets. Yes. Yes. And the way it was sold, right.

Because the way it was sold was like, this needs to be told. And it's all these like sort of vague posters just of the city and the streets. And you have John Boyer saying, survive the night, which makes it feel like it's going to be an on the ground, like this is what it felt like to be in the middle of this. And then it's just a movie about this one incident. I think my single biggest issue with this movie is I think it's precisely the wrong size. I think it's both too big and too small.

It kind of needed to pick a lane and either be this... Aside from the problem that she probably wasn't the person to tell this story, right? But it either needed to be a large tapestry of this is explaining this entire circumstance and showing a lot of different characters over a period of time

or it needed to be like just in the motel and she's kind of trying to do both a little bit like the central 80 minutes of the movie is just the motel

and then she tries to put some context at the top and some closure at the end that doesn't really go down well the closure at the end I think really hurts that

that oh man I had to pause it and get up at the closure part cause't really go down well. The closure at the end I think really hurts. That, that, that, oh man, I had to pause it and get up at the closure part. Cause I'm like, you got my man just,

and again, I know he, first off, I need to know what kind of movie she was trying to make. Yeah. Was it a horror movie? For instance,

like if you were going to make a horror movie, then like you should have just stuck down. That middle chunk is a horror movie. It is, but the thing is, I couldn't tell,

if that was the point, Get Out was that. You know what I'm saying? Like Get Out made a horror movie and they set it up like a horror movie where this movie, I couldn't tell. If that was the point, Get Out was that. You know what I'm saying? Like, Get Out made a horror movie, and they set it up like a horror movie, where this movie, I don't know what you were doing. This movie is not a documentary-style horror movie. I mean, whatever, sure. I would have issues with the movie, but I still,

I think the movie would be 30% better if she just made a movie that never left the LGRs. Yeah. You know? And it was that simple for her. She was like, I just want to do ratcheting tension. I want to do a story that's a microcosm of what's going on.

I still don't think the movie would have totally worked, but it would have been much better. I think people would have been just as angry about the movie,

though, because a lot of people walk out of that movie still angry. Because people were so mad about, like, why are you making me watch this?

Like, is your point that the Algiers Motel incident was bad? Because that's not really a controversial or new thing to bring to the table. I mean, I went

so when I saw this movie, there was a talkback with her and a lot of the cast. Yeah, this I want to hear about. Interesting. I mean, well, you know, it was one of those talkbacks where because it was like you know, union actors and union writers. Was this like a SAG screening? Yeah.

Actually, it might have been a DGA screening, to be honest. Oh, my God. John. Oh, John's fantasy. Okay. But they were like, we're on 54th Street. Okay, John. Okay, John.

Okay. Everyone was like, yeah, look at you. To be fair, I deserve all of that. That's a nice shirt you're wearing, Brett. I know. I want to hear about this. This is the beauty of having five, six people on the show. It's good.

It's like we're all laughing. It's a nice room tone. Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. So there are no tough questions. They were all softball questions given to her. How many days did it take to shoot?

Was there a lot of improv? The questions that everyone asked at every... Her continued stated reason and the actor's stated reason for doing the project was this story needed to be told and it's so relevant to what's happening today.

Essentially, I took from that people need to know when police when we talk about police brutality it's a real thing and perhaps the only way for people to really understand that is for them to be put in that situation and literally empathize with the people who are going through horrific police brutality and then go, oh, wow, I get it now. I get the mistrust of police. I get this. I get that. In my mind, I think that's what she was going for.

This movie has a lot of, I mean, how do we do this? Because I think it's like the initial, I guess my initial problem with this movie is that I always bring up sometimes, like, who's the lead of this movie? That's a great question. The nominal lead is Algie Smith, right? Who plays Larry.

See, but this is my thing. And the thing is, I would never have even thought that he would have been the lead until watching the end of the movie seeing him go to church. To me, the person

who has won the most screen time, who legit, you see his mind playing both. I'm going to agree with what you're saying right now. It bothers me.

The racist cop is the leader of the movie. Will Poulter is the leader of this movie. Like, you see him at the beginning. Oh, he's like, I. The racist cop is the leader of the movie. Will Poulter is the leader of this movie. You see him at the beginning. It's true. He's giving the most backstory.

He's giving the most closure. The whole thing. I agree with this. He's the leader of the movie. At certain points. I had that realization for like 40 minutes and I was like, what the fuck is she doing?

Why is he getting the most screen time? Also, it's like, am I supposed to feel bad when he's like, oh, we're not actually killing him. We're not doing it. Wait, wait. So you give a shit at a certain point? I was so baffled about, also, if he's like, he's like, Oh, we're not actually killing them. We're not doing like, wait, wait, so you give a shit at a certain point.

Like I, I was so baffled about off. Also, if he's going to be lead, what are you saying about him? Like, are you, are you saying he's a leveled multilayered racist?

Right. Like, are we defending the racism? I don't think she is, but I think it's just what you're saying. The amount of time you give him, the more she's letting us think about him. He has layers.

I mean, yes, which sucks I've been saying this the whole podcast the whole miniseries like especially the Hurt Locker and Zero Dark Thirty she's like I'm giving you you bring yourself to this right I'm giving you what happened

you can project what you want onto it I feel like she has this very removed perspective and it really hurts her in this movie well especially in the yeah i'm gonna say yeah my problem with this the idea of a removed perspective is like it's inherently a lie like right you cannot have a removed perspective especially with zero dark 30 i mean like that the idea of like this is exactly how it went down it's like no but i also think zero dark 30 is like

this kind of like messy gray area story where it's like, no. But I also think Zero Dark Thirty is like this kind of messy gray area story where it's like, okay, this thing that we were all very invested in, this thing that was seen as a great victory when we did it,

the means to how we got to that point are kind of murky. But this story is like, no, this sucks. Right, it happened. This is bad. There's no kind of

gray area about like, but wait a second. And also, they use certain elements because when this movie first came out, and I remember when John went to that screening, I started googling it and started looking stuff up and

and they do have that that end card at the end of the movie saying like some of the facts people really don't know like some things they exaggerated which i guess i respect but for instance another thing that bothered me is that they had uh easy umE I'm going to call it Eazy-E Jason Mitchell Guys Eazy-E Eazy-E Eazy-E is in the movie It could be an Oscar

animation this year Eazy-E Not for this movie Eazy-E should have got an Oscar animation last time but I'm going to leave that alone

He definitely should have got it but the thing about the gun right so the thing about the gun depending on who you ask about the gun

and whether the gun was real whether the gun was there like the gun was never found is that a lot of people say the gun never existed period sure so a lot of people say the gun never existed,

period. Sure. So a lot of people say the gun just didn't exist. So her including it even is a bit of editorialism. Yeah, that also bothers me

because what you do is, it's like you show this black dude shooting this gun at the cop whether the gun was real or not. And they say in the movie the gun was a toy gun. But he's doing this aggressive act which almost could say,

oh, he is the reason that they came here in the first place almost putting the blame on them which is the thing they say about black people all the time like oh what did you say back what did you do to provoke what did you do to let this happen

I didn't know that I didn't know that the gun was something that like it's still a question today and that being said can I just fuck this movie no because that was the thing that upset and that being said can I just fuck this movie oh wow no because that was

the thing that upset me the most was like how what's the cock and bull what's the term he was shooting when he's like just shooting well that scene is so peculiar because we don't know who this guy is he just walks in

right and like and uh and so the if if that is a question the to show it feels uh like it's hurt that's that's that thing yeah it's that thing to me is like oh and again the moment i saw him with that gun i was like oh if he shoots once it's a problem okay he's only gonna shoot once there are lily shots of him just like popping off with this gun and i'm like oh if he shoots once it's a problem okay he's only gonna shoot once they're literally shots of him just like popping off with this gun and i'm like you're you're literally putting the blame on them with this shot like it's keanu at the beginning of point break like it's him it is like just just doing it like so now basically everything that happens from this point because what you do is you have his black friends say hey if you do this they're gonna come kill us so you

have it said out loud right and then you have them make a choice to keep popping these guns off. And then after that, the whole movie, the racist cop's saying, where's this gun? Everything that happens to them is about this gun. That scene essentially makes the movie Hellraiser. Like, if you open this box, Pinhead's going to come out. And then he does it. So it weirdly makes the situation less sympathetic. It does.

Not fully, but in a way that's like, she shouldn't be doing anything to take away from the horror of these circumstances. And I really liked when the gun was first introduced, and he's like, I'm going to show you white privilege, you know? And he's playing that game. I really liked that scene. And he's a good fucking actor.

But then the next scene is just like oh i but there are also there are tons of movies that i think are are good that deal with true life stories where we don't know all the details and they own the mystery and they do not try to dramatize the things we don't know they make a story intention around that's something like zodiac where they can't depict the things that's what there's no right but no mark ball is not about that sure right but you could have made a movie if they all knew we don't know exactly what happened in that first room where we're not seeing what's in that we do maybe we hear some noise whatever the police come in and they go what happened where was the gun and you play into the mystery of no

one in this room knows what actually happened yeah can i give you we don't know what actually happened sure so like for instance one of the things that happened after this incident is that a church in detroit had their own trial once all the white guys got off right and it was like this big civil rights thing and it was just people from all over and they kind of held like their own mock trial of like with real facts with real issues and they found the guys guilty right to me it's like if you wanted to really show what happened and maybe have flashbacks you do something like that to frame it around yeah just frame it around this thing we actually go back and see different things and like the white girls that were there who talked about it see like how people viewed it but don't just show me this

crazy horror scene and also the moment and the thing that bothered me the most is that before in the horror movie style when we see the players we see them at the party when it becomes a haunted house movie yeah we see them we see the two white girls

who fuck the black dudes and we know this is now going to be a problem right we know the fact that like this one dude genuinely likes this one girl

they have a connection this is now an issue she's planting seeds but I mean that's the thing you see that's the thing about the movie it's like she wants the tension

to be building because she wants you to go, oh, no, I don't know if he should be firing that toy gun. Like, ah, shit. You know, like, and she, I mean, I'm saying she, she, she. Like, it's like only her. I mean, Mark Ball wrote the screenplay. Right.

But, like, oh, fuck, I'm losing my train of thought here. Can I call out the elephant in the room while you're regaining your train of thought? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want to point out quickly, this is the only time in history that Gerard has been made angry by a swirl being included in a moment. Wow, this is history.

Wow, you're actually right. Oh my god, I didn't even think about it. First off, do we we do see them kiss, right? Yeah. Yeah, you see them make out. But the thing that's so interesting about that swirl is that one, this is solely about race, but it's also a thing of, it's the thing of like

that hatred that these white cops felt the moment they saw those white girls in that room. I think in all honesty, and this may be my theory, I think in all honesty,

and this is not to take away from that situation, but if they would have not been there, if you just wouldn't have saw the white girls, I think this situation for those black men

may have been different. I agree. I think the movie thinks that yeah yeah i mean i guess what i was trying to say was the movie wants you and maybe this is part of the problem to think like hey man even if they fucked up by shooting the toy gun they don't deserve it or right like this shouldn't happen but already you're in this like tricky gray area where like like you guys are saying where it's like when the same thing where you have different kinds of racist cops where it's like oh i think that cop's dumber than that cop yeah that cop's more racist than that cop where immediately you're putting people on different levels sure and like two of the cops are like well maybe they're only like 75 racist right and then of course later we see a cop who's like,

oh, you fucking racist. Or we're seeing this couple, who would do this to someone? And like, everything you do is so loaded. Like, you know, like even if you have maybe some story intention with it. I'll tell you my least favorite scene in the movie. It was the scene that started making me feel really angry. And it was when I was starting to realize like, oh shit, Will Poulter's the lead of this movie

when he shoots the guy in the back right and then he goes into his like his chief's office and the chief essentially gives him a speech

where he's like this is your last warning if you keep being racist he puts him back on the street he's like I'm pretty sure you just shot a guy for no reason

on the street so I got my eye on you like that's his they like present this hero police chief who's like i know exactly what's going on racism is bad you better stop it no good very bad don't do it but also get back out there and also there's that scene right early on where like the tank like shoots out a window yeah and you're like what happened there wait a second and there's no further explanation of it and it feels like

almost just meant to rally you don't we see a kid looking out that window we see a kid looking out the window they shoot the window and you're like

did something happen there did a girl just die did a girl die from a tank is this something that's inciting things but they don't come back to it during the riot

it's like a young a young black girl was killed but the thing that's so fascinating about even I'm happy you brought up the good police sergeant

or whatever the reason I knew something was off is that as he's describing everybody hates Chris everybody hates Chris everybody hates Chris Tyler Williams

Tyler Williams Tyler James Williams he's the one who gets shot everybody hates Chris I'm sorry he's the one who gets shot in the back right but as he describes

the guy who gets shot everybody hates Chris I mean they were right everybody hated him. They shot him in the back. The sergeant literally describes him as, oh, yeah, it was the only shooting where a guy leaked out under a car.

So you really just threw away the fact that this guy, I don't know if he's dead yet, but I know he was found bleeding under a car, and you're just seeing it in passing. It's not a big deal. Which speaks to this movie giving you like eight minutes of really intense rioting on the streets that are essentially just there to serve as window dressing for the

story she wants to tell. That's the problem. If you're making a movie about it, that's fine. But right instead it just sort of feels like a preamble. All you show are the black people rioting. You see this one incident right with the black cop going in undercover and infiltrating. It's the first scene. Right. And then immediately things go from zero to

six million with riots in the street without actually presenting any sort of understanding as to how these things escalate. That there was so much escalation before this moment. What was simmering under the surface. Do the right thing spends two hours setting up the riots.

Two hours setting up the riots animated. Right, right. Two hours setting up the riot. There is the animated introduction. I forgot about that. Oh yeah, the quick history lesson. This is my big problem with this movie.

I think that I can give it as a whole. And I will say, this is just my theory personally. After working at places, like I worked at MTV News, right? John and James know how much I hated it.

And I think the problem I have sometimes is that the woke white person thinks they may know a little bit better and they may use like, Oh, my friend or my coworker who is a black person like told me it's okay. So I know she didn't write this movie, but the problem with this movie is that there's nuances missing.

Like when, when Steven Spielberg did the color purple, he knew what he like. The thing is, it was so much pressure. He was so like surrounded by black people who were questioning everything like like everything is like does this make sense why are you doing that which is why that movie has little nuances that are interesting like how

does Steven Spielberg know to do this because it wasn't him just saying it you know like he had help whereas in this movie I don't know if she had the help that she needed to get this done like you would have never you would have never added this quick scene of which people believe did start the detroit riots the the speakeasy um people believe that happened but all you show after that is literally just black people riding and it's just you didn't show the people in their families who were scared sure of everything else and starting with the speakeasy makes it seem like the speakeasy is what caused the detroit riots without giving any sort of pretext other than a fucking animated intro. James, I can see you're burning up.

Also, like, the animated intro just really rubbed me the wrong way. Also, because it, like, it starts with, like, the Great Migration. The Great Migration? It's like, it's like, it starts with that. And then it goes like, and then, like, you know, and then they started working and then they moved to the suburbs, and then shit happened. That's the... It's like that joke. They pulled the money away.

It's like that joke on sitcoms where people go, like, can you tell me the story? Just start at the beginning. And they go, okay, I was born in 18, and you go later, and then they go ahead too far. The movie tries to give you too much context, and then it's like, hurry it up. And they're like, okay, we'll get to the point. But you're missing the stuff that actually is relevant to this specific tale. I feel like that animated opening

more so than anything else really clarifies that Catherine Bigelow was making this film for a white audience. And not only a white audience, but like a white... What you're saying from the talkback sounds like that too yeah absolutely

she was like people need to know that this happened and the idea was like okay there are a bunch of white people who like don't understand like why black people mistrust police and I need to show them with this film and like I need to give them

like a little quick history lesson so that they understand you know what was happening and the inequality that was happening to them here and I need to show them with this film. And I need to give them a little quick history lesson so that they understand what was happening and the inequality that was happening to them here and then why they started rioting and then show the riots and then show how devastating the riots were by showing maybe a little girl just got shot by a tank,

showing this kid that we don't know who's taking groceries and then him getting shot in the back. Even if a white person's like,'s like taking groceries and and then getting him him getting shot in the back even if a white person's like he shouldn't have been stealing those groceries but he didn't deserve to die and then you know uh they shouldn't be rioting but you know it is pretty it's crazy that the tanks are happening and then it's like well they shouldn't have shot that gun at those police but you're right i mean they didn't deserve to have a night of horror you know it's all like it's always like this there's equivocation and even if the movie's not trying to equivocate it you it's that you have you equivocate it's letting you it leaves

the space for it and also the problem is attention-based filmmaker that opening chunk of like riot stuff is so frightening in the same way that the stuff in the algiers motel is because she's going for intensity Or she's making it look like a horror movie Yeah, rather than like a moment of sort of like uprising something that has a statement behind it I'll tell you this right now. This is tricky. And this is in defense of katherine bigelow. I I respect that she tried To like help show the light of that but the thing that's so tricky about it, and I don't know the answer to this.

I mean, we talk about it on our podcast. I don't know, because I think Steven Spielberg did a good job with The Color Purple. I can't sit here and say that a white person can't direct a movie about black people. I can't say that a woman can't direct a movie that deals on men issues.

I can't say that if you're informed, but the thing that's very very hard for me is that as a black person even right now walking down the street if i walked out with you guys say john and james were here and it was a cop that come up i will all automatically tense up like that's just how i mean it's just it just happens because at the end of the day is that i don't know the difference when i first see someone, whether this is a good cop or a bad cop. I know they are good cops. I know they exist.

I know they're great. But I don't know who I'm seeing right now until the confrontation or the incident happens. So the fact that she had this movie where there's even a part where like the white girls, when they get taken out of the room by the, what is it? It's not a cop. He's a national guard. National guard. She she goes are you gonna tell the cops we're here are we safe are you gonna tell the cops we're here in that statement right there to me that is what this movie needed to get to that statement is like the difference you have

right now is you can't tell who is here to help you and these are the people who are hired to protect you and you are scared now okay so there are two bigger issues i feel like we're we're talking about now that are the two main things that this movie represents that we need to talk about. One is the sense of who gets to tell what stories. Bigelow is a really interesting person to talk about in that light because

her two biggest movies are movies about masculinity. Point Break and Heart Locker. Zero Dark Thirty I'd say is the third. That's one of only two movies she made that has a female lead. Most of her career has been about depicting testosterone with this

outsider perspective, but with this level of specificity and detail. And Point Break's a lot more heightened, is a little more satirical. Heart Locker's a lot more stripped down. But you watch both those movies, and it's like, she's getting some things about masculinity that I don't know a male director

would have the distance to be able to perceive. But it also feels like with those movies, she did her time, she did her research. Film is collaborative. I feel like when people talk about like, well this person shouldn't be allowed to tell this story, they ignore the fact that there are a lot of people involved in a movie. But the difference

is someone like Spielberg coming in with Color Purple and knowing what he doesn't know. And knowing when to listen and when to ask versus like, I think I got this. I think I have a solid handle on this story. Well, and also, I mean, you know, it's written, it's made by, directed by her. It's written by Mark Bolt.

It's produced by Megan Ellison and other white people. You know, you're not seeing a lot of diversity at the top of the movie. Like, Barry Aykroyd shot it who's the guy, he's British for sure and he's the guy

who like does the Bourne movies. I mean, I don't know. They were very concerned about getting the story of what happened

inside the hotel right. That was, I think, detail, detail, detail. Yeah, like that's where all, because they did put a lot of research? That was, I think. Detail, detail, detail. Yeah, like that's where all, because they did put a lot of research into this movie, but I think that's where most of their research was, was like, let's recreate this exactly how it happened

and really get people to feel like they're there. So much so, I mean, I don't know if you guys found this in your research, but during the talk back, they said, somebody asked the question like, how much did you know about this movie before it started? on this and your research but during the talkback they said somebody asked the question like uh how much did you know about this movie before it started and what's this what's the kid who plays the main uh lg smith lg smith yeah lg smith said nothing yeah and he's only 22 years yeah like

they didn't like they they didn't give him a script when he was auditioning he didn't know the character that he was auditioning for uh and then during the auditions like they would just do improv and like the improv would be like him like being put against the wall and like you know getting roughed up and all this stuff and then like that's what they did when they were filming it like he like she kind of they sort of kept the details right right yeah did not have a, they didn't have an understanding of the script as a whole? Yeah, they didn't. The idea was so, and then

to get them to be frightened and confused or to really feel to really not know what's going to happen next. That's a weird balance to be like, we're going to research this, we're just going to try to depict things exactly as they were, but not tell actors what's going on. They said they don't know.

Boyega was like, they didn't know where the cameras were when they were filming. That is a horror movie, dude. That is what they were doing. I will say this. That scene, the main scene of the movie, is horrifying.

It's effective. It's very effective in that. I was like, I was like, yep, I don't know. Like there is no right thing to do. Anybody who thinks,

you know, Oh, why didn't they do blah, blah, blah. Would that kind of logic would immediately leave your mind when seeing this movie? Cause you say there's nothing you can do when somebody is this bent on

making sure you're guilty. You're at, at you're literally your life is at their hands there's nothing you you can think you can say the right thing you could say the right thing the wrong thing you could try to stand up for yourself and not stand up for yourself you know you can run away get shot or stay there and get shot you know what i mean cooperate and still get shot so you know what's just going through your head over and over it's, this is unfair. This is the worst. Yeah. It's like, this is unfair. I agree.

Like, right, just sort of echoing around. Wait, I just want to know, you were talking, was that before the movie came out? I'm just wondering, like, where their minds were because I bet they felt different

after it was a bad match. Oh, it was definitely before, it was, before it came out, before the reviews. Definitely before the wide release. Yeah. I'm trying to think, I feel like it was like, maybe like a day or two before before the wide release. I'm trying to think.

I feel like it was maybe a day or two before the limited release. Sure, sure. Yeah. Because it actually still got good reviews for the most part. Kind of. It's like 80% or something. Yeah, it is. Rotten Tomatoes is a good way to measure it.

I got you. But all those reviews are like, Bigelow ratchets up the tension again. Another edge of your seat. James, what do you want to do? measure. I got you. But all those reviews are like Bigelow ratchets up the tension again. Another edge of your seat. James, what do you want to do? Just like hearing the thing that you were saying, Bray, about how like wondering like why didn't they do blank.

A thing that kept coming up in my mind was like why is no one talking about the toy gun that happened? Like I kept that kept repeating in my mind and then. Why none of them were talking about why they kept saying like, there is no gun. There is no gun. I know.

Cause I was like, I was like, you guys are that confident that you hid that gun? I was like, you saw it. How could you be that confident? And, and, uh, only two of them were in the room besides Jason Mitchell. Right. That were up against the wall. Right. Like there were only two other people.

Well, it's the two white girls and the two members of the Dramatics, right? Well, no. Were they in that room when he was shooting at them, though? Yeah. I think they were. Everybody was in there.

They were all in the same room when he was shooting at the police. See, I didn't even... But I'll say this. The movie also, like, it gets so chaotic during this section, which I know why she's doing it because'll say this the movie also like it gets so chaotic during this section which I know why she's doing it

because she wants this sort of like you know a fear based filmmaking but it also got to a point where I was like wait did I miss

Anthony Mackie getting introduced I had no clue he was there today the cops dragged him to a point where he just like turns around and I'm like

that's Anthony Mackie did I miss him talking the geography of the hotel I have no idea I was like, where? What? Because they show this hotel.

They show the main set of the- It has an annex, though, right? It does. I guess it's like this annex. But it doesn't feel- When they first were in that room, I thought it was just a different apartment building. I didn't realize it was the 100%-

Thank you for bringing this up because this drove me crazy. A, when they go from the hotel, they're talking outside the hotel by the pool and then they go to this other house. I had no idea if they were like 20 minutes away, if they were in the backyard, if it was a different room, whatever it was. But also, once we get to the section of the

movie, the centerpiece of the movie, which is like these people up against a wall, these cops, guns pointed, separating them, these cops, guns pointed, separating them, playing this intimidation game, right? You have no idea where any of the rooms are in relation to each other. And the movie is playing this game of like,

okay, he's up here. She's down here. He's there. This guy's there. And I couldn't figure out who was where at all. And also, where are any of the hotel? I did not struggle with this, I'm going to be honest. I guess my thing was like,

there was no hotel attendance. Right. Because where are any of the hotel? I did not struggle with this, I'm going to be honest. I guess my thing was like, there was no hotel attendance. Right. Because they're in this annex, I think. But that isn't even clearly set up. If it's still part of the hotel, then why didn't somebody

from the hotel come over and go like, what's happening? Right, because Samira Wiley plays like a clerk who they talk to early on in the movie

who's at the desk, right? Yeah. And then there's like the pool. There's a pool area which feels like the main part of the hotel. Yeah. And then there's like the pool. There's a pool area which feels like the main part of the hotel. And then there's this like house and they're in a hallway

and there's like four rooms off the hallway and there's stairs up and there's like more rooms off. But outside of the house, it looks like they're just in a suburb. It looks like they're in the suburb. I was thinking that too. I was wondering like why nobody was coming

from the hotel to check up on it. But then I was like, they have sort of established that the riots, no one goes out after a certain period of time. But they were on the property. It'd be different if you like, because there was a curfew, in effect. But if I worked at the motel, I'm literally just walking to the back of the motel. That's not me being out and about.

This is the real place, which I assume they just are real. back of the motel like that's not me being out and this is the real place I mean which I assume it really does look like a house it's like a house that's off the motel but when they post the motel you get this visual of something that really looks like a motel with a neon sign so when they cut to the house and this like front

lawn I just was like I don't know where the fuck we are the house basically looks like an Amityville horror house we might as well be in like Long Island in the suburbs i guess my whole and my whole thing with this part too is like i i sincerely couldn't understand how those cops like got here yes because they they were they seemed when he was shooting it from the window it was like there were trees in the way like when when we see the cops like ducking or the national guard, like ducking down, right. They have no idea where it's coming from.

Then somebody says like, it's the motel. But my thing is like, if did the cops know that this was a part of the motel, dude, you know what I mean? There's a good question. There's someone trying to remember my biggest problem.

I know it's nifty, but my biggest problem about the whole thing is that, again, and I will never let it go, is that you made a movie about victims, like terrorizers and victims. Sure. At what point, I'm even going to include this end part. When did we get to know really anything about these black people besides the fact that they were like there? So only Algie Smith's character.

Kind of. Kind of. Kind of. Kind of. Kind of. I really like the moment that they give him to sing on stage by himself. Yeah.

I love that. I really like that part. I thought that that was like a great like oh yeah like he just has this dream that he is like not faulting

he's gonna like go out and do it. I think that scene's good. I mean the only problem I have with a lot of those scenes is you're just kind of sitting there with your fist

balled up being like what the fuck is going on I know what's going to happen so everything feels like a little bit of a tease for some

future horror this is like everything about him was a horror movie and the thing is if you're going to have him and then what's the kid from

Slate his best friend who dies Jacob Latimore yeah you got him in there, and it's like, okay, cool. Let's build this friendship up a little bit more. We see that Jacob Latimore always supports him, right? We see that they both like the girls.

He's a little bit more shy. Let's build the people. Show me the women. Show me, like, were they prostitutes? Then Jason Mitchell comes in with a toy gun. That's the thing. Were they prostitutes? I still don't know what they were.

They weren't? They weren't really. They were just still don't know what they were they weren't they weren't really they were just like girls who were like they like fucking black dudes yeah but it's not like

they weren't like working prostitutes if that makes sense they were kind of like they were kind of like runaways I just wish I knew they definitely were runaways

but who maybe had been paid like you know I think it was more of a casual. These many things unanswered even about like where the house is

in relation to the hotel and who the people are and all of that is just like, I don't know. For a movie like this to work, you need to lay all the pieces out on the board very clearly.

Whether or not you should have been making this movie, if you want this type of movie to function, you need to know where everyone is in relation to each other, who everyone is, what their backstories are, what they feel. And you want this type of movie to function, you need to know where everyone is in relation to each other, who everyone is,

what their backstories are, what they feel. Right, and that's the challenge Bull likes to set. Right. And he's set it and it's whatever. But Hurt Locker and Zero Dark Thirty

are both about one character. Like he's using one character to guide you through this larger kind of thing that's going on. Well, technically, we got the one character in this one

and it's the same just like the character from Zero Dark Thirty, same like the character from Hurt Locker. It's just a white one. I mean, no, let got the one character in this one, and it's the same, just like the character from Zero Dark Thirty, same like the character from Hurt Locker. It's just a white one. I mean, let's be straight up. My man basically opens the movie. He has the longest scene.

We see that he should have got fired. He didn't get fired. We even see his mind switch while he's at the motel. He's playing everyone against each other. The other one, actually one the other actually the other conversation that we have with him that's kind of more a lot more layered is the one that he has when he's riding when they're patrolling before he shoots the guy right and they're just like look at them like like what the one dude who i think we're supposed to think is more racist by

the end of the movie i don't know. Which dude? Who wasn't as racist. He's the one who told. No, who's the guy? Who's his partner who like shot, who wound up accidentally shooting? Yeah, that's the guy

who we're supposed to believe was super racist. Jack Reiner, right? Yeah, but he's like not as racist because like He's just stupid. Yeah, he's just stupid. The pitch on him

is that he's a dumbass. Like, I guess. Which is an easy out for the other two cops that they eventually portray both of them as just being like, well, they're just dopes. What's his name? Killed.

I'm not saying they're just dopes. He made an accent. He's like, I thought I had to. Oh, you're talking about the skinny one. Which one are you talking about? There's the kind of jittery one with the longer slicked back hair. I'm trying to find the name of that actor because I don't remember what his name in uh he is

familiar he's in um like one of the uh um mummy movies i think he's in like a third mummy movie the one with jack me jet lee was in it oh i didn't see that one uh oh he's like jack reacher or something like that didn't they have a conversation the guy from transformers 4 that's jack ranger that's a stupid one the other one who is maybe, you know, kind of the one who's just like a brute. That's Ben O'Toole. That's who I'm talking about. It's his name.

The brute one. Because I think at the beginning he says something like, he says something to the effect of like, look at them, they're animals.

Sure. And then, what's my man's name from Maze Runner? Will Poulter. Will Poulter. Who you know was originally supposed

to play Pennywise. Yeah. Oh, really? He did this instead of it. Yeah. Yeah, he did this instead of it. He was going to play another embodiment of evil. Because he was like, look, I want to play an unstoppable force of evil, but can I have

a little backstory? I mean, can I have the movie give me more screen time to make me a little more? I mean, also, he was like, oh, man, it's Catherine Bigelow. I got to do it. Everything. I mean, it's a logical decision on paper. I, it's Catherine Bigelow. I gotta do it. It's a logical decision on paper. I'll take the Catherine Bigelow movie. John Boyega was in it.

He had to do it. Could you imagine if it had this many scenes of Pennywise going into his office and the chief of the clown service was like, look, Pennywise, you gotta stop eating these kids. I think you're being a little... No, that scene is bad. It's funny you say going to take you off the streets if you don't stop eating these kids. I think you're being a little... No, no, no.

That scene is bad. It's funny you say it because technically that scene existed in it, but they took it out because they said the focus shouldn't be on it. The scene fucking existed

when he goes back in time where you figure out how he becomes it when he's still a damn human. It doesn't matter. But they realize it's not about him. Pennywise is bad.

Who cares? Wow. It had more concern! I just want to say I think you're being not hard on that scene exactly, but slightly pithy about that scene. Because that scene is definitely there to

tell us why the character is angry as well. But also, I'm not saying I think it's a little bit of an easy causality or whatever, but I don't think it's a scene where the cop's like, geez, you're really pushing it out there. What I don't like about that scene is mostly the way it depicts the chief, where I think it's kind of like, well, not all white people.

We're about to show you three very racist cops, but this guy, he likes it. I think that's the problem with the movie, where it's like no matter what, if you portray a character right, then it immediately, like I say, feels like equivocation, even if you're trying to be accurate or whatever especially because it's a hole you've dug for yourself right for me if people if if there was no commentary by any of the characters then then that scene doesn't bother me because i recognize watching it and hope other people do like wow the this cop know this chief knows that his you know

officer patrol officer maybe killed a person in cold blood and then let him back off the street yeah that dude that dude's messed up also all the national guard all of the other cops like everybody who was there at the place because there were so many people there law enforcement there and they all just were like i don't know just let them handle it we're just gonna be and it it you know indicts all of them like you're all guilty so much so that john boyega becomes a part of the problem too we have to talk about him we have to talk about him okay we have to talk about before before we do like that that should be there but then we do get scenes like the ones that happen after the incident

where we have this like really tough almost army general looking you know person like bring will poulter in and then like oh no sorry bring the other two in and like chew them out for being racist like he's like get it you know what i mean we're supposed to think that is this is a good you know what i mean so it's like we have those things but know what I mean? We're supposed to think, this is a good... You know what I mean? So it's like, we have those things, but we don't have the scene where people are getting chewed out for their complacency, for their... You know what I mean? It becomes so much about these three

supervillains, and it's two guys who are dumb. They're racist because they're dumb, and one guy who's a Machiavellian supervillain genius, who knows how to... He's not a genius. There's nothing genius about him I have a problem with even that character though who the main dude the main racist

no no the chief that like chews them out at the end he goes he goes get in here you knuckleheads people have died people have they're treating him like knuckleheads. Yeah.

And so I didn't even see that as like, I looked at, I literally looked at every white person in this movie as a villain. And I think- Except for that one scene. And except for that one- Where they show that cop come and be like-

Who would do this? Yeah, who would do this? Oh, and he like gently like like, picks him up and like, brings him to the police. But you see, exactly. Why did you put this film, why did you put this scene in the movie at all?

It's like, what is that scene? Well, see, no, I can tell you why. I know why. No, no, no. I mean, aside from the white savior part,

but I think that scene, to me personally, shows that like, the guy, the main black dude, was terrified of him. Because again, we don't know

this dude is good. Right. And right, there's a way you can do that scene where it's effective but I think the one thing this movie should have harped on

because they're trying to say it because it's from you know this is what's happening now I think one of the things that gets lost in translation

a lot of the time is that when people when African Americans say there's a problem with police people are like oh nah man you can't just shit

on all police and every time we always say the same thing it's not all police but we just don't know who's good and who's bad like we just don't so if you would have had

in this movie if you would even I would allow a fake character in this movie I would allow the cops are fake it's crucial to mention these cops are not real

they're not real cops oh really they have different names I don't know why but they do well see this is my thing about it that fucking bothers me there may be legal reasons for it

I have no idea why like I don't know my thing is this if fucking bothers me there may be legal reasons for i have no idea why like i don't know but my thing is this if okay we got movies about fucking oj he went to trial people making fucking movies about him but i can't put the three white dudes who got off okay anyway let me get back to this point like the fact is like if you're gonna add a fake no it makes no fucking sense i can butcher you can have fucking oj i wish i had the reason for you and i don't know exactly what the reason is they deserve respect they deserve to like

be left alone I mean the white women they're old men now let them live in their house I mean the white woman who literally got Emmett Till killed literally we didn't see her

until she was on her fucking deathbed and she's like oh yeah maybe I was wrong but we still don't say her name in the streets anyway back to the point at hand

because that's some fucking bullshit like if you're going to add a fake character into this movie then you put a cop who is like put a cop who's like not down with this and it's trying to like you know what i'm saying show me like there's a fucking level of like good and bad who's probably would freak out about that too but don't you think a more interesting version of this

movie would have been a movie that was putting blame on sort of quiet complacency in that kind of way like a banality of evil putting a good well-intentioned cop who still doesn't stop anything or maybe some what or maybe some people if you're gonna do the trial thing like show some of the white people who are like good like those that good man got off it you don't like show like right so what it was just. I'm just the horrors of the injustice. Everything you guys are saying, like I can, I can just see someone writing and being,

no, cause that's true. People would have complained. Cause it's like, if you're trying to put something somewhere, you're already in trouble. Right. You know?

And so that's why I understand why they were like, well, the Algiers motel incident is such an extreme example. True. This is maybe why we should focus. Right. I can see how he gets himself here. Yeah. Where he's like, right. This were like, well, the Algiers Motel incident is such an extreme example that this is maybe why we should focus. I can see how he gets himself here. Where he's like, right, this is like, no one could.

It's a microcosm. It's like a shotgun muzzle in the face. It's like the most unambiguous thing. But then there's still ambiguity, one. So that's a problem. And then two, I think everyone just walks out of that movie being like, yeah, I'm supposed to disagree.

Like, is there supposed to be anything interesting about the argument that that was bad? It's one of these movies, and there's that movie being like, yeah, I'm supposed to disagree. Like, is there supposed to be anything interesting about the argument that that was bad? It's one of these movies and there's a movie I hate. What's the movie you hate? Oh, do it. No,

I'm not going to bring up the help right now. I'm not going to bring up the help right now. Bring up the help. I'm not going to bring up the help. Okay.

I'm going to bring up, man, I almost blocked it out of my mind because I hate it so much. Blazing Saddles. I was hoping that was the one you weren't

going to bring up. So, hear me out. Hear me out. And the reason I'm bringing it up because Mel Brooks was hoping that was the one you weren't going to bring up. So hear me out. And the reason I'm bringing it up, because Mel Brooks was brought up, oh, you can't make this movie again. Hear me out. I'm not going to crap on it. I'm just going to say this movie, Detroit, suffers the same problem

that Blazing Saddles does. It's that Blazing Saddles is trying to tell a story about something that, in all honesty, they don't know about. Like, I think the intentions from Mel Brooks and Catherine Brigolo are very righteous. I love that they attempted to do it. But the problem with that movie is,

is that you're basically saying, look at these bad white people. I'm not like these white people. You shouldn't want to be like these white people. And what it allows is, is that people who aren't inherently or don't view themselves as racist to go, oh, I mean, I ain't got that many black friends,

but I know I ain't like this. You know, it alleviates and makes people almost like pat themselves on the back but i'm not this bad and that's the problem i have with both of those movies where it just does more damage than good i think what she's trying to get though is like this isn't any different from now but i think the problem is when you watch it you're like but it's so specific like so i can't get there yeah i i don't know i like i was i did feel like the message of this movie was like white people are ruining things right right because like even at the end of the end of the movie my man algae is like i will never sing again and that was all he ever

wanted to do right i can't even sing the music that i love because white people are dancing to it that felt that felt like another right thing And I felt like there were enough white people going, save them. All right, no, let's go. Let's go. Too much paperwork or whatever. That did feel like a message of this movie. As much as like it's a horror movie for most of it,

it felt like that was what they were trying to say to me. Ben, can you just get the door? I'm sorry. I ordered some delivery. Yeah, no problem. Who can plant a rosebud, grow petunias too, curate the best flowers,

and deliver them to you? Dan Candyman can. So, wait. Dan Candyman can. I ordered flowers, to be clear. He cultivates the field. Yes.

Not candy. No, of course not. You're the pro-flowers guy. I'm a flower man, yeah. Okay, good, okay, okay. It's just the name. Well, it's my family name. I mean, that's just Dan Candyman.

I can't control that. Your name isn't David L. Criticsman. People don't confuse. You know what? You got me. Your last name with your profession. Okay, okay. We were Candymanowski at Ellis Island,

and my great-grandparents, they changed it to Candyman, and that's just my name. Okay, well, anyway. I'm a pro flower man. Right, I was looking for some flowers. It's the fall. I was hoping for maybe, you know, a bouquet with some fall colors. I heard you were excited about the fall. Yeah.

This is a perfect gift. Yeah. I got some burnt siennas in here, some rust oranges. Right, right. A nice fall palette. Yeah. Ooh. Why don't you take a whiff of this?

Oh, that smells nice. It's a little bit cold. It's a cinnamon cider rose. A great option for a birthday, an anniversary, any fall occasion. Or go with me on one of the classics like a hundred autumn blooms or a dozen autumn roses. It's funny that you're singing this stuff but I mean

that all sounds good. I mean you got a lot of flower options it sounds like. I'm not allowed to sing? No you can sing. It's fine.

All I wanted was a long lasting bouquet. If I only had some flowers. And maybe you know in some autumn colors.

I got that. That sounds great. And look let me tell you something. Mr. Candyman? Dan know, in some autumn colors. I got that. That sounds great. And look, let me tell you something. Mr. Candyman? Dan Candyman. Go right ahead. Off the record. No, let's put it on the record. Ben, cut the mics for a second. No, no, let's put this on the record. I want this on the

Ben, I want this on the record. David, I'm a long time blankie. Oh, thank you. Big fan of the show. Great to hear. I know you've invoked in the past your struggles with gambling. They have a tendency to gamble. Yeah, you're right. I didn't know you were Big fan of the show. Great to hear. I know you've invoked in the past your struggles with gambling. They have a tendency to gamble. Yeah, you're right. I didn't know you were going to take it here.

Well, because I have some good news for you. You cannot lose because no matter which bouquet you send, your podcast listeners are going to get 20% off of any ProFlowers unique bouquets of $29 or more. So you're saying if you use a promo code. It's not a bet. You can't lose. Blank check. Right.

The promo code is blank check. Right. You're going to get 20% off any bouquet. Any bouquet of $29. Of $29 or more. What if you only want cinnamon cider roses? Done. Sure. What if you want the 100 autumn blooms?

Done. What if you want a dozen autumn roses? Done. That sounds good. And they last? These things last? At least seven days. That sounds good. And they last? These things last? At least seven days or your money back.

So they're guaranteed, staying fresh. Yeah. And here's the other thing. I'm at your mercy because you control the delivery date. Oh, so I can order like way in advance and it will arrive like two weeks from now. That's the Candyman promise. That's cool. I actually got some Pro Flowers before.

They came in a box. Oh. Come with a vase. Yeah. They come with a box. Oh. Come with a vase. Yeah. They come with flower food. Oh. And it's literally just, you just unpack them. You put them in the vase.

It comes with a vase. And I lack for vases. I am Candyman giving you flowers now. Put them in the water. Put in the food. Put them in that included vase. They look incredible. Now, let me ask you a question.

Sure, Mr. Candyman. What if you want some Kit Kat bars? Yeah. It looked incredible. Now let me ask you a question. Sure, Mr. Candyman. What if you want some Kit Kat bars? Uh, yeah. Chocolaty treat. Well, don't ask me. You're the flower guy. I'm the flower man. You're Dan Candyman, the flower guy. Correct. Well, it's been nice to meet you,

Mr. Candyman. I think I'll definitely be back again soon. Yeah, this is an interesting thing that's happening yeah david also can you not get deliveries in the middle of a recording yeah david why not get dijornos for once right ben yeah dan canny man they high-fived uh yeah well okay i just wanted everyone to know on this show it's why i did it in the middle of the show oh okay that they could use promo code blank check go to proflowers.com, get 20% off any bouquet.

$29 or more. Come with me to proflowers.com. I'm sorry. Do you know my song? Do you want to sing it? Sorry. Sorry, Mr. Candyman. Come with me and you'll be on proflowers.com on the internet.

I'm going to close the door. Okay. Promo code blank check. Thanks for stopping by, Mr. Candyman. He's on the other side of the door now. Oh, Griffin, you're back. I was here. I just didn't really feel like talking.

Oh, okay. Fair enough. So here are these two things I want to get at. We've got to talk about John Boyega. Yeah, I was going to say. What do you want to say, Griffin, and then we'll talk about John Boyega? For me, the difference between this and Blazing Saddles,

aside from all the other differences between Detroit and Blazing Saddles. I mean, they're the same movie. Right. Right. This is an unofficial remake, right? Right.

This is sort of the 13 going on 30 to Blazing Saddles big. Um, but I think, um, Blazing Saddles depicts different levels of racism and obviously it's in a different context but i like that that movie has casual racism in it it has the people who are like i'm not racist but please don't mention this to anybody and it has your like mustache twirling like super evil guys and in this movie i think there's just kind of like every white character who's central

is like such a horrific villain. Right? And then you have a lot of people who are like small parts who are just kind of like, well, I don't know, let's not talk about it.

Sure, they're not doing much about it. Maybe they're a little more like, I think the more effective version of this movie, and once again, she shouldn't have made this movie, but the more effective version of this movie

would have been a movie that pointed more fingers at that quiet complacency i also think that there's this thing that this movie represents which is like when you make movies about any sort of prejudice or discrimination but you make them period pieces at a distance far enough from where you are today it sort of alleviates a certain sense of like present day present day cultural guilt because it's like, well, thank God that happened 50 years ago, but now

we're woke. The movie's trying to be like it's not different. But I think inherently that's a flawed concept. I think the second you said it that far back, it does create that remove. Which the question is, should she have made this movie present day?

And the reason that it fails create that remove which the question is should she have made this movie present day it's because and the reason that it fails at that is because anyone who can see that the stuff that's happening in this film is happening today

already knows that yeah this movie's not changing one person's mind yeah there's nobody going into this movie who is like

yo first of all nobody went to see this movie right but second of all people I mean nobody went to see this movie. But second of all, people, I mean, nobody went to see this. Not as many people want it as they want it, but people went to see this movie. It made some money.

It made some money. I think it was like 40% of the audience was black. Yeah. And the thing is though, my thing is like, for people to make, for people to really make that connection, what you need to do is take the exact language that people are using politically today and put those in the mouths of the people

here in this literal it has to be exactly like people have to recognize like it's this is all about law and order like they have to hear the all the phrases that are still being used today in the mouths of these other people. And what I'm saying is, especially for the complacency thing, you need to have white people who were not connected to this event commenting on the event after it happens,

after the audience has seen what's happened, right? And then see a trial period where people are talking about it and going and going well why didn't they just uh listen to the cops and well maybe if they weren't doing this and maybe if they weren't riding or maybe if they you know respected the flag you know i want to see right the thing i want to see is white people in this movie a scene of white people in this movie going like well you know we don't know what happened in that room. We don't know. That's a kind of insidious sort of thing to me.

What do you guys think about John Boyega? Okay, so Boyega's really fascinating to me because aside from the fact I think he's really fucking good in this movie, given very little to do, every time they give him a moment, he kills it. I also think he's the pathway to the most interesting thing this movie had to say, which

is he is a guy who is trying to be moderate in this entire situation. And he learns conclusively that there is a time where moderation has to be put aside. I guess so. What do you guys think? My thing is that he

it's like his character is supposed to be the black person who follows all the rules. Right, and still gets fucked. And still gets screwed so that people can say, go, oh man, even when they do follow all the rules, they still get messed up. But again, one, I don't think anyone

who wasn't already thinking that way is making this connection from the movie. The other problem is like, I mean, John B. was like a great actor and he did, you know, a good job in this movie. But we don't know anything about this dude's character. You don't get any background at all. What do you guys think? Man. I find difficult.

I find difficulty with it because I I'm going to say this before I get into this next statement because this will fuck me at one point in life I know it when I say this I do believe like black people are like black actors are black actors I do like I don't care where you're from you're a black actor

but this story and I feel like this happens kind of a lot to African American men stories that are inherently something that we in America have but this story, and I feel like this happens kind of a lot to African American men, stories that are inherently something that we in America have to deal with. We're not put in a position to be the stars and be in that spot. And I do think if it would have been like an American black dude in this, because again, John Wager,

he has nothing to do in this movie. He doesn't, but there's also like a, bruh, in this day and age, like if i'm around a cop right now right my body is different i i look at them different even if i trust you i still i still have a guard up and he didn't have that let me tell you why because i don't think aside from here in america like we haven't been in a place where like the hatred is so steep that it still

exists right now and i think it should have been someone american which sucks to say but i do a little bit and i also think that i would have loved to see a scene outside of the one we first see him with another black person in that hotel just look i wanted to see them make eye contact and have a moment because anytime i'm in a room and a bunch of white people if i see any brown person i'm looking at you and i'm giving you a nod to let you know that we are safe you know I'm saying that's just period yeah and I and and just to talk about that like I felt like so much was even so much was happening at that moment when he first shows up that there's there's no time there's no time for the for the for the nod or for anything like I like like I struggled with

John Boyega for the same reasons you were saying but also just because of like how his character is rendered like we don't we don't really know who he is or like or what he's doing until after he gets like handed the bag of shit

she wants him there for that scene where he's in the interrogation room. Which is the one scene I think he does really well as an actor. Which I think is a very well acted scene, sure. Where it dawns on him like, oh, I... I struggle with it because not knowing the details

of the night, but then to hear on top of everything that the details of the night are shaky and just are. We don't have an accurate account of everything that the details of the night are shaky and just are like people don't we don't have an accurate account of everything that happened like the timeline of when he shows up i'm now i'm questioning that and then and like he's he's there for so long and does nothing like like which like it's a tricky to me it's a tricky character it's this is probably the hardest character for catherine bigelow to direct in a white screen what's whatever to write because

in reality i mean it's said in the film right like a lot of black people probably would have looked at this guy like an uncle tom yeah like oh you're just capitulating to white people to save yourself but i think catherine pigelow doesn't want that wants us to relate to this character one because it's john boyega he's the biggest star in the film but also because you know she doesn't want to paint another black person in a bad light so we see like so he has this air of like he's he's there to help he just doesn't know what to do. He's noble. You know, he's noble, blah, blah, blah. But in reality, I'm sitting there like, what I was thinking was like, my man, if you're

not going to help, you need to leave. What are you doing here? You're not helping anyone. And he was there for so long. He was there the whole time though. And the thing, he is a fascinating part of this case because you mentioned the tribunal that the Citizens Action Committee held. Like, they convicted him.

Right. Along with the three white cops, they sentenced him to death, which is something that was, it was like the sentence they passed down. And he was there. He was the only one who attended. He didn't say he attended.

Like, he wasn't, like, testifying. And, like like like you say they could have centered the whole film around this like you know that's a dynamic that I'm sure

she's fascinated by it's a problem I have with the big scene I think his big scene again they mean the interrogation sure sure interrogation

and again I am not I feel like this is the whole thing of like oh man people keep capping on like British black actors

they still black you are you are still black and maybe it wasn't him maybe it's how he was directed but if i a black person if i witness a crime and there's no other black people around me i know in my heart that this now will be a problem for me period if you show up to my job you don't buy that he doesn't get that if somebody walked in here right now and said hey Jeraa you need to come with me I instantly know

something is up I'm not coming in that thing and being like really complacent but you're pinning that on his Britishness no the thing is and this is what I'm saying

I mean this is what I'm saying this is what I'm saying I think it's one of two things it's like either that or it's how he was directed but the thing is there is a loss in

I think it's probably both it might have been but there's a misconnection in how American black people were treated I was gonna say the thing my

the reason that I don't buy that at the end is because of how he played the character in the beginning cause my thing is I would have much rather have seen you know when he comes over

with the coffee to the cops or the National Guard and he's like and we're watching it the way that it's depicted is like

he is doing what he can to make sure that the stores don't get messed up he's like and we're watching it the way that it's depicted is like he is doing what he can to make sure that the stores don't get messed up he's got his job he's gardening his store he's gonna be like he's gonna make sure that he doesn't get shot

this is also what I find interesting about the characters he's the one guy who willingly puts himself into the situation it feels brave and noble when he does it instead of

what it could have been which was what is this dude he could have been cowering we didn't have to see him save another black person he could have just been like i'm glad that wasn't me you know what i mean like that's i would have believed that a lot more show me what it's like to let him go and then him have because that would be that would be an actual arc right it's like the arc isn't just happening because right now it's just it's just at the end he just goes oh i did everything right and now i'm screwed instead of

oh my god i thought if i if i degraded myself and lowered myself and lowered my pride and like yes yes sir yes sir and all this stuff all the things that they want me to do is just be subservient i'm gonna be subservient this entire time and then i and then i'm still on the act you know what i mean then it could have been like it could have been like whoa that's what i find interesting it's just like it's not he was a really noble guy and then the white people screwed him and he was so brave the whole time and then he still gets screwed and i'm like but was he brave the whole time i would love a movie where he was actually the main character they didn't try to present him as the hero

and you actually got a sense of his psychology, especially during the Algiers Motel when he kind of just fades into the background for a long period of time. You don't understand why he's not acting. Show me the court case. Because I think he's the figure who ends up representing most of what's interesting about this. Because he was trying to find a

balance. Because he was someone who was trying to build a bridge. Because he wasn't someone who was stuck in this room and wasn't someone who was forced to respond. He throws himself into that situation, but you don't really understand why. You don't understand why he doesn't do more. And of course it gets pinned on him at the end. But at that point, he's not really a character. You haven't really spent any real time with him. And his mind is emotions.

So it doesn't really mean anything. And when it got to that scene, I was like, fuck, why isn't the movie about him? The thing is, it would have been so much better if this movie started with him, I don't know,

either on giving his statement like on trial or if he's an old man and he's like recounting everything that had to happen. Show me like who he was before that night. Yeah, give me something.

Show me like how he got to this point and like how screwed it was. And then also, again, like who he was before that night. Oh, save the private Ryan. Yeah, give me something. Show me like how he got to this point and like how screwed it was and then also, again, like how the black community treated him. I mean, he got death threats after this.

Yeah, he did. It should be a bio-debt about this one guy. I think the problem is this guy's not selling you his life rights. He doesn't want a movie made about him

and his role is so murky. I like a lot of people's role like, you know, because no one, yeah, no one knows. You know, the testimony is like little bits and pieces and like you try

and put it all together. Maybe don't make the movie. All right. I mean, they made the movie. I'm not saying this to you, David. I'm saying this to Catherine. Right. But to me,

to me, the scene that really messes it up is that we see, the first time we see him, really, is him doing a heroic act. So we're set up to believe this dude is a hero,

and a hero who fails, but supposed to be a hero anyway. He goes to the house because he wants to make sure that the white people don't kill the black people, but it happens. Right. But he's sensibly there. But he is powerless, right?

He's powerless. Totally, he's powerless, but's ostensibly there but he is powerless right he's powerless you know yeah totally he's powerless but what I'm saying is if he's really if he's just I just wish the movie

like made it made an interpretation of why he's doing this because because the fact of the matter is all the black people in here were powerless so like

the one person who could have a little bit of agency you also just made power like he had no agency in the whole film which maybe that's how it happened in real life but part of me is like the white people didn't

ask him to come what you were saying about Will Poulter being the main character though I mean like this is kind of a movie about everyone's robbed of their agency and so right it's hard to know like who am I attaching myself to here right because even his agency is oh innately he's very, very

racist. Which I'm not saying I want some origin scene where he falls into a vat of toxic racism. But you know, it's just like the movie just presents him as being like, this guy just is fucking racist. The racism power plant exploded and the fumes spread over the city. He was too good because he

didn't want to kill anybody. He was like, no, we're playing a game. It's a game you dummy his racism I mean the movie's not saying that the other guy's worse it's just saying

the other guy's a fucking idiot no but what I'm saying is the problem to me is that the movie and him saying how could you do that is just a game almost wiped the hands of some of the fucked up shit

that the main racist guy did because it's like it's what he's saying I didn't feel that I just didn't feel that hit me up hit me up because to me

what it simply felt like is like oh I am bad but I am not so bad and so racist that I'm just in here just killing black people but that's what he thinks right

that's what I'm saying I saw it as like he thought that he wasn't doing wrong but that didn't but he killed two people what he was doing yeah no but what I'm saying. What I'm saying is,

but that level of me getting to understand he thinks that way, I now know more about his psyche than anyone else's psyche in the whole movie. And that's the problem.

Because everyone else's psyche is they're really frightened because they're being lined up against the wall. Especially at the, dude, the fact that, I literally,

there were so many questions I wanted to ask that I didn't because there's no way I was going to. There were so many questions I wanted to ask that I didn't because there's no way I was going to. But one of the questions I wanted to ask was like, Anthony, you've been in... You're in the Hurt Locker? You've been in...

You've been in like three Marvel movies. Why are you here? You've been in the Hurt Locker. Your role is nothing in this movie. Why are you in this movie? How did you say yes to her? It has to be their existing relationship, right? Of course.

I have this role. He's a veteran, so I need someone who's got like presence. Why did she get? I would feel, I would be like, if she, I would be like, Catherine, I know we're tight, but. When she announced the cast. And then when the ad roll out and all of the press happen, my man,

I did not know Anthony Mackie was in this movie until he showed up on screen. Oh, really? No. I didn't know that at all. There was that one poster of the four heads.

There's that one poster where he's one of the four heads. I never saw that poster. Boyega, Mackie, Algie Smith, and Will Poulter. Okay. But the trailer that I saw and anything that I knew going into this movie was that John Boyega was in it, Will Poulter okay but the trailer that I saw the trailer that I saw

and like anything that I knew going into this movie was that John Boyega was in it Will Poulter was in it and I and it was like you know this hold up at the

hotel but also I thought I thought it was a lot about the Detroit riots more so than it was I thought it was about the Detroit riots but

I just feel like Anthony Mackie was it I mean maybe he was on that poster but I feel this poster is what I'm talking about. Yeah, it's like one, his head.

Oh, wow. Okay, yeah. But if you're saying that they... But that's not the main poster that they use. Well, the other poster is that sort of detachment on here.

That's the one I saw. But Bray, if you said before that they didn't have... That one. They didn't have like the full... They didn't know the full... They didn't know.

You're right. He might not have known. Like, I would say yes to that that it is a relationship thing it's like oh yeah oh it's catherine okay all right uh great like oh it's about is it has a message okay all right they thought it was a movie like all of that together i would be like i would say yes to that literally no character so here's a question that i have no answer to, okay? This is my question for you guys, right? I'm putting aside whether or not she should have made the movie and just looking at her intentions of what she wanted to try to get across, trying to say, like, this is what's going on now,

place you in the situation, make you understand the terror, the powerlessness, you know, that distrust of authority, all that sort of stuff. Do you think this movie would have been more effective had she created a story out of whole cloth or taken a less publicized but more recent

incident? Like made a contemporary film. Right, made a contemporary film and just said, I'm making a horror movie. That's a tough thing. It's a tough thing. I don't know if there's a story there. But I wonder if the better thing to do is make a movie that's just about this type of situation

yeah and all these things that we keep on getting to where well I guess the character can't do that because we don't know what they did in real life or I guess the character has to do this because that's what they did in real life but we still have these big lingering questions

of why which the movie's never able to answer yeah just make a movie that is just like this fucking horrifying standoff, you know? Yeah, I'll say this. If the sole

intention was to make the audience feel like they were reliving themselves an experience of police brutality i felt that for sure right that being said if that's the only thing you're going to do because that that's really the for

me the only thing that was done effectively it is most of the movie yeah but for me it was like everything else wasn't done effectively what do you get to the court case the problem is that it's not all the way the problem I think it's summed up by John Krasinski just walking in. John Krasinski. Oh my God. We haven't talked about John Krasinski. With half an hour to go where you're like,

oh shit, John Krasinski is just showing up. That means he's going to have like a whole role. We're not done. We're going to have a bunch of courtrooms. And he's shattering everybody. Right. And I guess the reason that she added that was for people to... lines we're gonna have a lunch at court room shattering everybody right and and i guess i guess the reason that she added that was for people to to she wants it to be like they got

off right you know she wants that injustice so that they feel the injustice today but my thing is if that's the real goal if the real goal is to change the hearts and minds of people who are not already advocating for this stuff then you have to do it in a much more deliberate and obvious way than it was done in this film because for me like you were saying because and like you're saying because it's a period film i don't think people who don't understand what's happening today are taking this incident and going i think i can just watch and you go yeah that's right now i can hear them right now saying past tense did you see the eric gardner video has nothing to do

like that eric gardner was resisting did you see the other video like did you see the video those people were resisting oh yes though the boy at ohio like that was tragic but what can you do he had a toy gun they ran up like they came on him they saw the gun they shot him what do you want to what do you want them to do it happened in a split second it's totally different and all the things today and the reality is it is true

it is different because the stuff that happens today usually at least at least the high profile incidents that we have videos of you know what I mean those incidents are usually because

like these cops are making these split-second decisions because they're so fearful for their own life without even thinking about the life of the person that they're arresting. Right, and they've been empowered in such an intense way. In such a way that it's like, hey, if you make a mistake, it's cool. We all got your back because we know you were just trying to do your best. Whereas these characters, these cops, we see in the beginning beginning them run a black man down shoot him in

the back so we know that they don't have the best intentions at heart so when they see this when they see this incident they're like yeah but these cops are different because they weren't fearful of their life they were just terrorizing them because they were on a power trip the national guard knew it that's why they left right you know what i mean it's like it's such a completely different thing that you're what you're the main thing she was trying to do i'm like it doesn't work with this movie at all like it doesn't work with this incident but it's and it also doesn't work because she but this is a dramatization of what happened like they had control they could have they could have made different decisions like the the fact that this begins with like basically everything happens

because jason mistel he says these words they'll never know who's doing this so when they go in and there are five people in there yeah it could be any one of them right like and then they terrorize them and it's a horror movie but it could be any one of them to them. So like... Like there's the grain of probable cause. The movie weirdly gives them justification. Yes, because he shoots so many times. Yeah, somebody in that house did that. Somebody in that hotel did that thing.

Which gets back to my Hellraiser analogy. It's like, well, you called out Pinhead. What do you expect? John's got to go. Let's say bye to John. I got to go. See you, man expect? I gotta go. See you man. Gerard, go off baby. Before you leave

this movie gets nothing right? Oh yeah we had to give it to Helping Dogs. Yeah this is a crossover episode. I still would give it a white palm. Chris Chalk's in it, Amari Cheatham's in it. It still gave it put my man on the map he's gonna get some rolls off of this.

I don't like the movie but I would still give it a white palm what was the last thing oh man Krasinski anyway that haircut no I don't know

I will say this I'll say this after I watched this movie I was like I am interested why she chose this but I guess it was because of this

police brutality thing but there are so many horrible things that are on a much larger scale that like white people have done to black people in this country and i'm just like it's so interesting the ones that like people bring out you know what i mean because it's also black people who don't get to pick it so yeah i guess what i'm saying like it's really interesting to be like the ones that like white filmmakers attach themselves to that. I'm just like, Oh,

that one. I'm like, I have a bunch of stories, but you know, there was a whole town in Oklahoma. That was a striving black town that just rate. Like someone should do a movie. People just destroyed that entire town.

All right. Anyway, that's all I got to say. Bye. Hey, yo, someone should. All right.

This is my John. I theorize that this movie, I think that you could make this movie into a good movie. I think this was my theory I theorize that this movie I think that you could make this movie into a good movie I think this was in theory a movie that she

should have done I think one simple change would have made this movie better what's your watch now not have the racist white dude be the lead like cause to me it's like again

have them be more anonymous more like these people just come in and you have no idea who these people are you just want them to be like boogeymen you want them to just be like

that's it cause Poulter looks like a boogeymen. You want them to just be like... That's it. Because Poulter looks like a boogeyman. Yeah, but it's so tricky because I feel like, you know, my family's from the South and I bring this up a lot, where it's like, you know, if you watch the news, and this goes for both like CNN, MSNBC, like Fox, all these networks, they make it seem like they're such a crazy divide.

And most of the time it's because you don't realize that a lot of time in these small towns, people don't interact with one another right so like we don't get to see like when i go visit my family like there's black they're white but like they're together so like they they like those groups don't like people in new york or california because they're taking all the jobs and money so like people don't know that they actually are united like black and white people we we get like we get the shit together like we're we're in it together you talked about that in your Beast of Southern Wildness. Yeah, it's just like we're all the same thing.

So to me, if you feel the need to help people understand why these atrocities are happening to African Americans, paint them as, this is so dumb, but make us seem, because we are, as humanistic as possible. Show us what our family, show them in love. Show that guy who eventually dies, show him really have a moment with that white girl like show him like we we have these loving moments we are real people said when atrocities do happen

to us it has more weight to it not just victims you can feel sorry you can feel like oh my god i would never want this to happen again i wouldn't look out for it i won't be able to sit there and say oh i'm not like that sure you know my thought i had watching it was i felt like boyega was the character that was sort of would have been the smartest one to pin the real kind of narrative story on and make it from his perspective. I think you shouldn't know anything about the fucking cops. I agree. I think they should just be forces of evil. But I also had this thought at one point because I was just playing this game of like, okay, how would I fix this?

Would this work? Would this work? What are the ways to refocus or restructure this movie? And this one thought I had was, if you started the movie with the police walking through the door, right? Here they are at the Algiers Motel. Here we have a group of people lined up against a wall. Here we have a group of people with guns. And you just do this Catherine Bigelow, like, edgier C, white knuckle fucking terror thing.

But the movie is, no context prior to that the story ends when they leave that room but you flash out of that to each of them. To their lives! Show me their lives! And you just go like here's a story that's going to be reduced to a bunch of victims and a bunch of perpetrators

but let's flash out of this to give you senses of just their everyday fucking how they got here because the movie doesn't do that at all no it doesn't no it doesn't not no it doesn't not do that at all

it does that for some characters I think they do it with the Algie Smith character but it's such a big swing of a narrative of like this is what made him give up music right sure sure

it's through one specific prism which is just his career this whole article you can read it about how he knows you know he met that guy and that was what connected. This whole article you can read it about how he knows he met that guy and that was what connected him to the story.

You can find it on I think it was a New York magazine or whatever. One quick thing about that character is that yeah they show him as like

I don't even think they make him honorable until the end of this movie because when you first see him his friend seems like the honorable one because he's like I gotta get bread.

I have to get bread. Right? Then all of a sudden the riot is happening they need to get out he has his moment of song and dance, which is great, which is beautiful.

Sure. The next moment they get out of here, they go back. He's kind of super selfish again. You see a lot of more like being nice to him in the moment. The moment those white girls show up, he instantly becomes a black predator. He literally becomes,

he literally becomes at that point, the thing that they show in birth of a nation to think of like, Oh, he sees a white woman. Oh, he's got to go. Like he instantly goes into that point the thing that they show in birth of a nation to think of like oh he sees a white woman oh he's gotta go like sure instantly goes into that moment even so much so when they go to that other house where everything goes down that he just starts making out with her like legit and that's supposed to be the guy i feel like you're in a room of like 20 other people without really even talking to her that much you you gave him that kind of thing where like you almost made him more of a villain than this cop who shot somebody in the back because they ran away from stealing food.

Yeah. I don't know, guys. I'm just going to say something controversial real quick because I feel like I have to say it. But I don't hate that they went into Will Poulter's story in the way that they did. I agree. I really don't. And here's why. He's a monster.

And I really think that the movie paints him as a monster. And I think that the more we hear the reasons that he's doing these things, the more he seems like a monster. I think the crime of the movie. Yeah, I think if you make these characters anonymous, then you can more easily dismiss them. Yes, and the crime of this movie is that we see him in his most monstrous, after everything that he's done, shoot Jacob Lattimore in cold blood.

Which I find to be the most effective scene in the movie. But we have no idea who Jacob Lattimore is. Which sucks. And that is the crime. It's not that they went into his backstory and we got to see him thinking thinking that he's thinking that like because we're not killing them he's doing the right thing no he's he's evil and then after all of this he does his best to just get off so like he's a he's a he is a villain and he is more of a villain

because they didn't at the end yeah exactly because Because they didn't just make him like a faceless sort of like villain character throughout. Like going into that was good. But you want every other character to have that level of detail. It's unbalanced. Yeah, it's very unbalanced. Yes. You're right. I want to stick up for John Boyega.

It's the Brit in the room. Sorry. I know. I'm just sorry. I just want to talk because I can Boyega as the Brit in the room sorry I'm just sorry I grew up in Britain where police brutality is a big issue too I'm not really one who can talk about it but he has talked about it it's interesting hearing him talk about it

talked about the Rashad Charles incident which is a really recent terrible incident where a black kid in London was restrained for no reason and died you know like same the same shit does kind of happen the difference is uk cops don't have guns and so that obviously that changes the scenario and obviously the american in the you know it's a very particular it's a very tough conversation because of course everyone knows this summer this whole thing happened with Sam Jackson. And I agree.

Black people all over the world deal with the same thing. It's just that for some reason, when it comes to American Hollywood movies, we are never given a chance to tell the story. The other weird thing is Will Poulter is also British. The two extensible leads to this movie are British. I was thinking about that, too. And I was like, are they doing that to sort of,

are we supposed to now distance ourselves? I assume she just thought like these are good actors, I want to use them, but like it is a little weird that the two main characters are played by British actors.

I don't know. It is strange. Especially because the poacher's doing that very affected accent. He's doing the drawl. And I want to make sure I don't clarify it because strange especially because Will Poulter's doing that very affected accent you know like he's doing this and I want to make sure I don't get clarified

because I feel like you know we get famous this episode this episode I mean I've got a couple but I'm trying to clarify all the ones but I know it's going

to come back to get me don't worry Chris does the same thing I do it every single episode but I feel like there is a thing where it's like you know

there are certain things that I I think that it would be different if we just had a chance so we we saw what it would be like if a black guy got to play a certain part that is inherently something that we deal with every day yeah i'm just curious to know what it would look like and and i think that like it was a mistake to to only give pieces of the script or have actors, have your biggest source of black input in the movie not have an understanding of what the whole thing was. The larger thing they were saying.

Because I feel like there would have been a lot, there would have been pushback, there would have been character input, all kinds of stuff that we didn't get. But I feel like the three of us are actors, right? You famous, though. You famous, though. The three of us are actors, but you're the famous.

You famous, though. Come on. You're in my subway station. Yeah. Every day I get on. You're at the airport. I was at the Toronto Film Festival. He went for lunch.

At the Toronto Film Festival in the Scotiabank, where we see all the movies they play three trailers on a loop it was like Flatliners The Tick there was a third one

so I watched you over and over again your face is like this is not he's not into this I'm sorry the opposite of what sorry

let me restate okay draw James the three of us are the three finest actors of our generation I love this this is known this is known we are the three finest actors of our generation I love this

this is known we are the three finest actors of our generation I love this you want to be able to play parts that are outside of you you want to be able to get the chance to play circumstances that are different than what you have lived through but I also think sometimes you see performances

where you're just like wow that is such a specific moment that clearly could only be realized by someone who has felt that has lived through that things that are very very and i think you put it so well that shift you feel in physical tension when a cop's around right yeah that's something that i i think is, it's a tiny, innate, behavioral moment that would speak volumes if you saw that depicted on screen. And that's like, not to get lofty about it,

but the power of movies where you're able to put a microscope on these little things and make other people understand them for the first time. And there are things where it's like, look, you can't say that a British person can ever play an American person.

This or that. But for certain stories- No one's saying that. I want to be clear. I just wanted to at least point out what I was talking about. Thank you. Thank you. Please. I'm not saying it. Thank you. But it is, you know,

certainly with certain stories and certainly the bigger conversation is just, as you said, like, why do Americans never get to tell those stories? Like, that's the biggest thing. And you want to see people get those chances. We should wrap up. We should wrap up. Two things I want to see people get those chances um we should wrap up I should two things I want to do just because it's time

that was one thank you for it so much thank you so much we've had five people in the studio obviously Ben hasn't really but Ben did you even see the movie no yeah cool just wanted to

get that in there we started this miniseries and Ben was like you know Detroit it's only gonna be playing for like another week it's really hard because Detroit vanished from theaters very fast very quick and Ben was like, you know, Detroit, it's only going to be playing for like another week. It's bombed really hard. Detroit vanished from theaters

pretty fast. Very quick. And we were like, definitively, Ben, you do not need to see this. Being in the room and hearing you guys talk about it,

I'm really glad because it sounds like everyone's really angry. You would have been furious. Yeah, I mean, I want to play a box office game. That's the other thing.

Okay. So this, if you guys want to join in on this because we rarely do this. It's pretty recent. Talking in limited release, it was July 28th. Should we do the limited or should we do the wide? Let's do the wide weekend.

Okay, so the wide weekend is the next weekend. That's when it expands to 3,000 theaters, which is crazy. After one week in like 20 theaters. The other crazy thing about this movie is Annapurna had just been a production company and this was their first attempt at releasing. We are a studio.

This movie cost $34 million to make. It grossed $16 million. I guess it's still technically in theaters. Domestically, $16 million. It has not been released outside of the country yet. Wow, really?

Yeah. Well, releasing this movie in August was bold. This is not a summer movie per se. I thought they would have made it like an Oscar. I thought they went for... They were though. That's why it's so weird

that they released it in August. Like usually this is a movie, right? You release this in like October, November, you know, Oscar season, trying to get buzz, you know, all that crap. Maybe you expand a movie, right, you release this in October, November, Oscar season, trying to get buzz, all that crap. Maybe you

expand it slowly. Instead, one week, limited release, then wide release. And they talked about it like, we're trying to have our cake in here too. We think this can be a big box office play that then will last through the Oscar season. And there's something admirable about that. Especially if this is a better movie, but being like, no, no, we're not going to play

the little sort of like, oh no, it's a prestige movie. This is a movie everyone, no, we're not going to play the little sort of like, oh, no, it's a prestige movie. This is a movie everyone should see, so we're going to put it everywhere. Right? There is something to admire about it, but it didn't work for this movie. Absolutely not. It opens, so it expands to number eight. So it's not in the top five.

Yeah. Wow. So we're going to guess the top five. That's the box office game. And makes seven opening weekend? It makes $7.1 million dollars yeah in its wide weekend

and this is in August this is August 4th 2017 number one is a movie starring an actor of color I just want to point out one more thing

August this year was like the worst August the deadest month like they didn't have competition if this movie was clicking this movie would have played

and it made two times its opening weekend, essentially. A little over two times. Right. Number one is, it's a new movie. It stars an extra color. I saw it.

I had a good time. It's not good. Is it the bodyguard? The bodyguard? It's not the hitman's bodyguard, which comes out maybe a week or two later. It's a franchise play.

It's the Dark Tower. It's sort of a genre movie. It's the Dark Tower. Oh, it's the Dark Tower. I almost said that. 19.1 million. Okay. I'll let you take the next one, James. Let's play. It's sort of a genre movie. It's The Dark Tower. 19.1 million. I'll let you take the next one, James. Let's play. James has removed his gloves.

Did you guys see The Dark Tower? Did you do an episode of The Dark Tower? We did. The Dark Tower. I was an avid reader of the books. I like the books too. I knew going into it that it just wasn't deleted, that movie.

I knew it was that little boy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's not my favorite. That little boy had every talking line in the trailer.

I wish it ended in that movie as it does for the little boy in the first Dark Tower book. Yep. I think that would have been but I mean, I can see a studio being like,

uh, we're going to keep this child. Where the kid just dies? He just keeps going? He just leaves him? He just dies? He just walks away? Anyway, number two is kind of the out-of-the-box hit of the summer that is still probably the

best picture frontrunner. Dunkirk. Dunkirk. Okay. I haven't seen it. Is it good? It's good and it's worth seeing in a theater for sure. Dunkirk.

What do you got? James, what do you think? No, I didn't see it. Oh, you didn't see it. I thought I was looking for opinions. No, I have no opinion. It's a good movie. Nice trailers. Yeah, it is a good trailer.

Great ad campaign. Good ad campaign. Number three is just another huge front runner for Best Picture. Animated film. You're saying this facetiously. I'm saying it facetiously. It's not Despicable Me 3. Oh, no.

It's Emojis. The Emoji movie. Emoji movie. One of the worst review movies ever. The Emoji movie, which was, to America's credit, not really a big hit. $84 million. It did okay. The fact it made $84 million is insane.

Right. But they were thinking. Thank God it didn't make $200 million. Put it this way. I'm like, it was was bad but it could have been a lot worse. It underperformed relative to the Angry Birds movie. You know what I'm saying? They wanted more from this movie. Angry Birds crossed 100.

It flew past it. It loaded up in its slingshot and it flew past 100. You and John. Angry Birds made 107. Okay. Number four is definitely one of the breakout hits of the summer. Also starring actors of color.

Great movie. Oh, Girl Strip. Girl Strip. Girl Strip. The most profitable movie of 2017. Girl Strip, which is a movie that cost $19 million to make, has made $114 domestic. How much?

Get Out made a lot of money, too. Get Out made a ton of money. You're right. Get Out a lot of money too. Get Out made a ton of money. You're right. Get Out only cost like $5 million. Get Out cost less than $5 and it made $175 domestic. Blumhouse this year has done crazy numbers. You're right. Not only is Get Out the most profitable movie of the year,

Get Out is one of the five most profitable movies in history. Split did very well. Split did really well. Those are two universal movies that cost nothing to make nothing those two movies

combined cost under 10 million dollars and made over half a billion Bloomfield had a great year he should make fucking every movie everyone should let him make every movie

Bloomfield had a great year he's kind of a character in Home Again Jason Blum really I mean like is he a character that's

obviously supposed to be him not the main young kid is it no no no wait is he actually in it? no it's just obvious this character

you know Home Again is one of those movies where it's about a struggling screenwriter oh is it? yeah and it's like clearly the woman writing

her life 10 years earlier every time we pitch I don't know about 10 years earlier she's 29 years old really? yeah man so then why is okay

every time we pitch movies or shows and we have Hollywood in it they tell us no one cares about Hollywood movies and then and we have hollywood in it they tell us no one cares about hollywood movies and then we're like what about these movies and they're like can y'all do that black thing for a whole season and i'm like well okay well yes how many times seven seasons okay all right so i'll let you put my head down every time sorry go ahead number five number five yeah also starring an actor of color

wow it's a thriller I think it was made like a while ago finally came out is it is it Kidnap with Halle Berry

it's Kidnap oh wow that's a movie that already doesn't exist wow considering that that movie basically doesn't exist yeah

got terrible reviews was supposed to be released three years earlier came out posters and everything that was a Relativity bankruptcy movie yeah still made 30 million that that movie basically doesn't exist and got terrible reviews. It was supposed to be released three years earlier. There were posters and everything. That was a Relativity bankruptcy movie. It still made $30 million

on a $20 million budget. But we already forgot it existed. People rent it. I don't know. Kidnapped. Is that like her Taken?

Is she like fighting people? And they made it right after Taken and it took this long to come out. What? You should have

took the Taken. Yeah. Going to Taken. Because she hadn't been in out. What? You should have took the Taken. Yeah. Going to Taken with her. Because she hadn't been in a movie since X-Men Days of Future Past which she's barely in. So like her last

like starring role is The Call from 2013. Which is the same movie. Which is a pretty similar movie. She is in Kingsman this year. Which I just

I just saw it two days ago. I mean she's in it. She's in it. She's not giving much. She's Ginger Ale. Ginger it. She's in it. She's not giving much. She's Ginger Ale. Ginger Ale is kind of in it. She's behind the desk.

You know what? Maybe in the sequel, she may have something to do if she is in the sequel. Which Kingsman 2 does a lot of that. Like, well, this will actually let them do something in the next movie. They straight up admitted

they were like, yeah, Channing Tatum was going to be the Pedro Pascal role. And then he was busy. That role is supposed to be the best guy. So we just had to put him on ice. Right. They wrote going to be the Pedro Pascal role and then he was busy. That role is supposed to be this guy. We just had to put him on ice. They wrote that to be one character and then he was like, oh, I booked something else.

A vacation with my family. Can you put me literally on ice for the majority of this film? That's the top five. Guys, you know what? I will say this though. I don't listen to podcasts you guys are the only ones I listen to

so you should feel good about that that's great I literally listen to no other ones because they usually annoy the hell out of me even though we have our own

but I usually never listen because I'm like you listen to your own podcast I don't like hearing my voice I hate I hate my voice I only listen to it

when people get offended specifically you have a problem with the resonance of your voice it's not even what you say. You dislike the tonality of your own voice. I will go back.

I think you've got a great voice. I will go back to someone who says, you offended me. I will go back and listen to it. And I'm like, all right, you know what? Maybe this was out of line. Or I will try to. But people call me out all the time.

So I will go back and like. I do the same thing. I mean, I don't get called out. I get a lot of hate, just generally. But then I go back and listen to it. The internet's so great. I'm out I get a lot of hate just generally but then I go back and listen to it and I I'm in pain

for a lot of reasons they don't like what I'm saying and I don't like how I'm saying it sure you want to you want to argue with them

you're like I also dislike listening to me for different reasons if you wrote out what I'm saying I would agree with it I would agree with that

I would stand behind can I ask agree with that I would stand behind can I ask you a question though before I leave please now that you're famous yeah this is like legit question

we're gonna wrap up here we haven't even done our big ol' rankings though we'll do that let's do that on our family episode okay yeah

I'm sorry no we get right we get right I think we'll just do it later that'll be real do you like having a podcast

you guys critique movies and stuff do you ever feel like you, like, can't say certain things? It's very bizarre. I mean, I've told this story before, but, you know,

I knew Ben because we did a podcast for the Chris Gethard Show, like a recap podcast, and that went on for a couple years and then we stopped doing it. And I really wanted to do another podcast

and I was talking to my agents about it and they were like, well, you shouldn't do a podcast about movies because you're going to share all your opinions and it would probably be bad. Like, that's clearly the thing

you have the most to say about, but it would probably be bad for your career. And then I started doing this, and when I started doing the show, I, like, I'd gotten fired off of Mulaney. I was, like, being given nothing to do on vinyl, which seemed like a sinking ship, and I was like, yeah,

this might not be going anywhere. I might just double down on like stand up and doing this podcast and not try to really be like getting hired by big production so who gives a shit and then this podcast has been like charting the arc of me actually getting like some modicum of like

under my feet but I've tried to not like pull punches in that way the way I always justify it and i feel like i i certainly feel this kinship with you because i hear you say stuff on your podcast where i'm like i love that he's not holding back right despite the fact that he's trying to work in this industry which is my basic philosophy but it's like if you really feel that strongly against something you would be lying to yourself if you then went in and like

said like oh it's a it's an honor and a privilege and tried to work for them you know like the directors that i shit on on this podcast i would feel like a bullshit artist if i was hired by them to be in their movie even if i hadn't said that stuff on mike yeah that's sort of my rationalization you're gonna get cast in like a Trevor I know I'm probably this is going to bite me in the ass someday but that's my rationalization I say the same thing all the time I literally go like one of these days this is going to come back to get me

and the thing with that though is like Trevor knows that people don't like some of his movies right well does he I'm sure he knows now he knows I don't know if he knew he had to know that Jurassic World was polarizing I'm sure he knows now. He knows now. I don't know if he knew. I mean, not before Star Wars. He had to know that Jurassic World was polarizing.

No. He did because he had defended things. People would ask him, why did you do this? So he would defend it. So I guess he knew a little bit. But I think he thought the book of Henry was going to be a hit. Do you know what I think, though? And I feel like I'm always lying to myself,

but I repeat this to myself all the time. It's like the justification for like, stand, you know, by, by your, your opinions, you know,

like speak openly on the podcast, share your thoughts is like, yeah, maybe it'll cost me a couple of jobs, but someday it's going to get me the job that matters. Yeah. I imagine like Spielberg's going to call and be like, so first of all,

I love blank check. And I'm like, there we go. I think that's what drives guys like you and I to be like, the one person you actually respect is going to be like,

I'm hiring you because you said that movie was bad. Spielberg calls. I mean, honestly, I would die. What's up? What's up, Spielberg?

Guys, we got to wrap up. I'm sorry to push it. No, no, no. Ben's got to go to the car. Ben, we care about what's happening. Ben's got to go to the chiropractor. Ben, we care about what's happening to your body. Ben's got to get his back.

James has to coach. I do. We're all very, very busy. I'm going to go walk in the park. I'm probably going to get a bagel. I might get a bagel too. Yeah, let's take a walk. But thank you so much for being on the show.

I have a bunch of listeners in Hollywood if they aren't already. Please do. What's wrong with you if you aren't listening? Yeah. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Ang for Gudo for our social media,

Lane Montgomery for our theme song, Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for our artwork. Ben looks like he has something to say. Tune in next week for our episode

on Justice League. That's right. Oh, next week will be Justice League. Next week we're doing Justice League so we can talk about it then. We're recording these in advance.

We'll do the Bigelow one there. Y'all doing Justice League? Yeah. They won't let me do it because, you know, Cyborg's not the lead. He's not the lead character. If y'all want

a Batman aficionado, I'm just saying. Maybe we'll bring you back here in two months from when we're recording this episode that will then actually be released next week.

Good call, Ben. Good call. Setting that out. Justice League is next. And Happy Thanksgiving. And Happy Thanksgiving. Because this is coming out around Thanksgiving. Wow, Happy Thanksgiving.

We're looking far into the future. Having this fun. Who knows what secrets will be held for us in that world. And as always, Hancock's a good movie. Oh, yeah. I mean it. I stand by that. 100% Hancock's a good movie. Oh, yeah. I mean it. I stand by that. 100% Hancock's a good movie.

Flowers are my game. Doesn't make any sense. Well, that's just, I mean, what? You're a candy guy or a flower guy? Candyman's my last name. Okay. That was the name they picked at Ellis Island. We were Candymanowski.

And then my great-great-grandparents picked Candyman. Don't hold my name against me. It's not like I fucking chose it. I'm sorry. I get defensive because I care about flowers, and everyone thinks I'm coming with candy, and I'm not. I'm Dan Candyman, and I love flowers. I'm a pro for flowers.

Sure. Tell us more about yourself, Mr. Candyman. Well, look. You ask me. This is the worst. but look you're laughing to my face I'm a professional here I'm a pro flower man you are my name is Dane Candyman I demand to be taken seriously we have to do this again. This is insane. Why are you laughing to my face?

I gotta call it quits. This is nuts. This is not okay. I just came up with our breakthrough character. We're gonna sell a Dane Candyman animated series. Okay, ready? I'm ready.

Are we gonna be professional about it this time? Yeah. Are we gonna behave ourselves? Probably. Cause I ready? I'm ready. Are we going to be professional about it this time? Yeah. Are we going to behave ourselves? Probably. Because I came here to sell flowers and I'm going to do a fucking addery. Stop swearing. Okay, ready? Yep. Ding dong, ding dong, ding dong, ding dong. Oh, can you get that, Ben? I actually

ordered delivery. Oh, okay. Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Hi, how's it going? Who can plant a root? delivery. Oh, okay. Yeah, sorry. How's it going? Who can plant a root? All that shit about being professional. Okay.

Okay. I'm going to be very serious this time. Jesus. Jesus. What a situation. Ding dong. Ding dong. Ding dong. Ding dong. Guys. Guys.

I didn't see his face. You should have said the first time we had something good going. Oh, God. You should have started the first time we had something good going. Okay. Oh, God. His face is just full of tears. The way I looked at him, I wasn't prepared for that. Okay, don't look at Ben. No, I'll look at him.

It's fine. Okay, ready? Yep. Dude, chill out. Oh, God. Killing me. And you're telling me this isn't a good bit. Look at how...

I'm going to make fucking Candyman t-shirts. Okay. All right.