Blank Check with Griffin & David - Dumbo with Karen Han

Episode Date: April 28, 2019

Karen Han (Polygon) returns to discuss 2019’s Dumbo! But what member of Blank Check likes a bossy girl? Was actor Brendan Hines insecure about the fact that he might be too conventionally handsome to be a Karen's Boy? What should happen to bad elephant boys? Together they examine Disney trailers and critical predictions, frozen heads, Sims gets very mad about his boy Colin and they offer up their Burton rankings. 

Let's get ready to Dumbo! I fucked it up. You did, you just said Dumbo. Okay, take two. Let's keep this in. Take two. Let's get ready to podcast! Great.

Great. But we're keeping the first thing in. Yes, and this is an episode that everyone's gonna love sonically because so far three out of the four people on mic are... Chewing. Yeah. We got 30 people off mic. We're hungry, the four people on mic are chewing. Yeah. We got 30 people. We're hungry boys.

I'm off mic chewing. Ben's got a salad. David's got a burger. You got some pork in there, Ben? It's pulled chicken. Chicken salad. I have a bagel twist,

uh, untoasted. It seems perverse. Right. Did you ask for them to toast it? I did. And in fact, as they rang it up, it said bagel twist warmed, which is, you know. Here's my question.

They have a special button in the system. A bagel twist button. You get your raspberry coffee. But the warmed button I'm saying specifically to add plus warmed. It's like when you add like milk. I got my raspberry cafe. Do you know this about him? He drinks coffee with like raspberry cafe. Do you know this about him, Karen? Raspberry cafe.

He drinks coffee with like raspberry syrup. When did this begin? You want to smell a little whiff of it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It smells better than it tastes. Hand that over. Yeah, take a little sniff. Wait, it smells better than it tastes?

I would argue. It does smell nice. I like the taste. Most people like the smell, dislike the taste. Please take a sip. Okay. I think you'll think it's too strong. This tastes like coffee.

Okay, well. But I also don't drink a lot of coffee, so. Sure. I like me some coffee. Me too. I'm a coffee boy. Yeah. You're all hungry boys.

I'm so hungry. I'm a hungry boy today. You're always a hungry boy. He's growing. Yeah, we all have busy days. We all are busy. We're coming off of like busy, jam-packed days. I gotta speak some truth.

You just saw this movie. Just saw it. My day. Do we need an intro at all? We'll get there. Okay, cool. We've got at least another 30 minutes of preamble. Yeah, you're right.

We went to see The Nets last night. I just saw the pictures. I can't believe you guys actually did that. We did. And actually, it's gonna sound pretty good. I can't believe you guys actually did that. We did. And actually, it's going to sound pretty good. You claim the audio is listenable.

Right, right. No, it sounds good. Which is like a win for us. I did a good job. You killed it. You did do a good job. But then, I did a bad thing today.

What did you do? Because I went to Dumbo and then I checked Twitter and people were like, uh, Frankenweenie, Ben? Oh, right.

You didn't put it up? I forgot. I'm going to do it. He forgot it existed. I literally forgot. Hosley! I know. Hosley!

So it's on the record here. I fucked up. I get one mulligan. I get two mulligans a year. I was about to say. You better up that. Yeah. So I get one more mull.

And you did nail the basketball game, which everyone said could not be done. So thank you. Yeah. But you're right. basketball game, which everyone said could not be done. So, thank you. But you're right. Our patrons, I let you down, and I'm sorry. Frank and Weenie. Right. But at the time you're listening to this episode, Frank and Weenie has already posted. That's true.

Hopefully. Right. If not, maybe another talking to is required. Yes. It'll be out. A polite conversation. It'll be out. Our Patreon conversation. It'll be out. Our Patreon commitments.

And the B-Ball Boys episode is coming up. May 11th. Yes. And here's a little tease I'll give. It's definitely a live color commentary in the most traditional sense. Actually, on the record, I want to say something that we did not realize was happening during the game because we were there. We did acknowledge that Gabrielle Union was there. Gabby Union, the great

Gabrielle Union. Dwayne Wade's wife. The most exciting part of the game for me. He was really pumped for that. A movie star! If you remember, there were also another couple times where someone sort of stepped onto the court and the crowd cheered like someone in plain clothes. And at the end, you saw Dwayne taking pictures with people. It was with the Banana Boat

crew, which is LeBron James, Chris Paul, and Carmelo Anthony, the other, like, his pals in the league. And they called themselves the Banana Boat crew? I'll explain that in one second. One second. But yeah, so like, they came to like, see his last game. LeBron was there last time? LeBron was there.

Star of Space Jam 2? I was about to say, this should be like, more exciting for you. They walked in, like in unannounced. Another movie star? Exactly. Right. Train wreck? Yeah.

They walked in unannounced just as the game was starting, and they never did the cameras in the arena never found them, so I assume they told them don't do that. On court photos at the end. Which makes sense because they're all buds. They all were drafted in the same draft. They're pals. Now you got to explain Banana Book. So a few years ago

these four guys Dwayne Wade, LeBron, Carmelo Anthony, and Chris Paul and their families their wives, their kids, whatever. Chris Paul of the YouTube Pauls? No. God no. Chris Paul, you might know him from the Allstate ads with his

brother where he has like a fake twin brother probably not yeah um they all went on vacation together i think in like the caribbean or something yeah and they were posting on instagram like lots of selfies drinking wine because you know lebron's obsessed with wine and they're always not know that he loves when's he gonna get his own wine that's a great i assume like you should i mean part of the california move yeah winery yeah oh my god could you imagine the fucking i want to imagine him going to like kurt russell for winery advice oh they should they should link up yes um sorry uh lebron yeah so and and there was one shot of them all on a banana boat together and it became so so they

did not dub themselves the The people dubbed them. The Twitter dubbed them that, but they have embraced it, the banana boat crew. So they are the banana boaters. And we are, let's say it, the bigger elephant crew. Yeah.

Exactly. I mean, look. Is this like fucking slam dunk triumph? He got it back. Not necessarily. This is like he threw the ball from the entire other side of the court and like hit the backboard. So it's still like pretty good.

And you're like, that's pretty impressive. I think that's a good call. It's not a point, but it's still impressive. My takeaway is I'll allow Tim Burton to stay on earth and not go to space. Which is huge. Because I think we were all hitting the end of our rope. Oh, I was done. Yes.

And maybe there's a little bit of freedom in knowing we're done here. A hundred percent. It's the light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, maybe it was just seeing it in the theater. Some of that. You know what I mean? It looks great. The thing does look really good.

It looks good. Colin's in it. You know, like, I think for some reason, it's like, I just was like a piece of tenderized meat by the time I saw Dumbo. I was just like, fine, yes, whatever. He beat me in submission. Here's another thing for me.

You know, call me a sucker. Call me an easy lay. Oh, boy. You give me a movie where someone says, the elephant is heading towards Nightmare Mountain, and I'm, it's, I mean, I'm kind of in. Also, Michael Keaton. Nightmare Mountain or was it Nightmare Alley?

It was Nightmare Alley. You've seen it more recently than I have. Michael Keaton. Also, the futuristic design bullshit. You love that. We're going to get into all of this. I was on the Culture Gab Fest to talk about Dumbo, Among other things.

Retired bit. No, brag is acceptable. Okay. And I know. We're just, yeah, we're taking different approaches. And I remember Dana was just like, do you just have Stockholm Syndrome? You know what I mean?

Because I was like, it's good. It's interesting. He's talking about his own career. And everyone else is like, what? Yeah. What are you talking about? It's just like a shitty remake. No, I do feel that.

First of all, I think it's a lot more introspective than his recent films have been. I agree. And secondly, I think it is still a mess in a lot of ways. I think most of those problems land on the feet of the script. But he has found some coherent ideas that transcend how sort of generic and unfocused the script is at times. But we'll get into that. We'll embellish that. We'll talk about that for five and a half hours.

Our guest today, of course, from Polygon, the great Karen Hahn. Hello. Is here. Hi, Karen. In the studio. Hi, guys. And this is a movie with some KBs. Oh, yeah, big time.

Big time. I'm wearing my Michael Keaton shirt today. Yes. In honor of this recording. Which they very kindly sent me a Michael Keaton shirt as well. Shout out to Super Yaki. It's here in the office, right?

I think Ange has it. I have my mummy shirt. For any of the listeners out there that aren't familiar with the term KB, could we elaborate? Please. We talked about it on Way to Water, but who knows who listened to that one? That's what I'm saying.

This is a blockbuster up here. Yeah. KB, of course, is a Karen's boy. Yes. Yes. And how would you define a Karen's boy? I mean, aside from the actors who you have crushes on. I feel like the closest approximation I can think of is one one of your previous guests of on alice in

wonderland made a tweet that was once like everybody that you have a crush on looks like a half-melted candle sure which and i believe on the last episode i was on we refer to as they either a have a lot of face or be like, like, put in the work. Yeah, a lot of face. I mean, like, they're all true. They definitely have a lot of face. Oh, yeah. Well, that's why I like Michael Keaton's, like, straight shot. Oh, God.

He has so much face. He does have a lot of face. We were talking while David was late to the recording, something I would never dare do on this show. Nope. We were talking about how Michael Keaton's insane expressiveness, right? Yeah. He's got a crazy face, and he does a lot of face acting.

Has really just paid off in these later years where he has the most interesting wrinkle map a man has ever had. Yeah. Because his face looks like cross hatching. His whole face looks like that. Right. And it isn't even just like, oh, he's got like deep lines in the corners of his mouth or crow's feet. It's just like every possible angle. It's like a

fucking, it looks like a spiral graph. It looks like if you took, like in a video game, like characters are just all polygons. It's like if you took this color skin off and just looked at the lines. Except that it's just. A nice plug for polygons.

Thank you so much. No, but it is that thing. It's like when like Pixar makes a film they always talk about how we like have to create these expression points so if you strip Buzz Lightyear you just see this really dense grid

just a lot of lines because it's like oh he's got to have like 18 muscles in each eyebrow and Michael Keaton you're just seeing the grid now has like a thousand in each eyebrow

yeah oh boy it's so good yeah he always looks on the verge of being angry. Uh-huh. But in a way...

He's sort of got a pursed expression. He's got tight lips and arched eyebrows. We talked about his lips. Right. Yeah. I mean, as you should. Yes. As we all should for all times.

Yes, I agree. There is an incredible moment in this movie that feels kind of PKB, where you have a $200 million Disney fantasy remake and the movie has boiled down to three wrinkly gray men talking to each other about business. While seated. While watching everything else in the movie. See if we open the bank.

Like that's I was kind of into that. I don't know what else to say you know what I mean? I was into that. It feels weird to see that much gray. Truly, right? And the fucking Lion King trailer came out. Okay, and we're going to talk about this.

We have to talk about two Disney trailers in the midst of this episode. We've been recording other things in advance and out of order. We've got three Disney trailers to talk about. Wait, what's Toy Story 4? Oh, we've got to talk about Forky. But, you know, the most recent one is... Ben's giving. We got to talk about Forky. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, the most recent one is fucking Forky.

He did 9-11. How dare you? Whoa. My new thing is that saying the most Get that name out of your mouth. I'm going to wash your mouth out with soap.

Forky's in ISIS. Yeah. No. Fork ISIS. Do you know why my girlfriend has changed her background on her phone? My girlfriend? I know. She showed me as a rebuttal to my reasoned points that he is in Isis.

He is not. And that he's a narc. Narkey. David is like the Alex Jones of Forky. Exactly. That's a good brand. There's something about Forky that really puts my teeth on it. That's i the minute i saw him in that full trailer i was like get this guy out of here this guy i don't like him he's great he's a little cutie i think you don't he's unsettling

i think you don't like that forky is making you ask the big questions the whole point is that he's unsettling why am i alive am i alive forky Forky is fucking tough. You know what stresses me out? When the toys fall out of the car. Yeah. In any Toy Story movie. I'm like, Jesus, they're so small. How are they going to get anywhere? You keep on contending that you don't hate the Toy Story movies,

but then it sounds like everything about the innate concept of the Toy Story movies. There's so little. A franchise based on. Griff, I've seen Toy Story 2 like many times. Good man. Many, many times. That was the one I owned on VHS. Right.'ve seen Toy Story 2 like many times. Good man. Many, many times. That was the one I owned on VHS. Right.

One I've only seen like three times. I'm just saying. They always fall out of the car. Three I only saw the one time. It's always harrowing. And they always question why they're alive. They do always fall out of the car.

And they always question why they're alive. Forky more explicitly than others. Yeah, this seems more explicit. That's what I like though. Let's stare it in the eyes. But first, let's talk.

Forky's meat culture. Lion King trailer. Now, Griff, I feel like your take on the Lion King so far has mostly just been like, I think this will be a hit. Like, it's not like you're super hyped for it. No. You're more just sort of like, wow, this thing looks like a slam dunk. And my whole stance is I see it through fairly sober eyes because Lion King was not one of

my movies as a child. I think I saw. Lion King was huge for me. I think I saw the musical on Broadway before. According to my parents parents the first movie ever they took me to a theater. Makes sense. Yeah.

I wouldn't see it because I had a strong anti-death rule. Aww. I wouldn't see movies that had death in them. I mean there's a big death in that one.

Right. And I heard that and I said get out of here. I had been on the record saying I think it'll be the highest grossing movie of all time.

I've been standing by that and doubling down. The new trailer came out yesterday. I am now terrified. The new trailer, I mean, look, much like the Aladdin trailer and, well, the Aladdin trailer best exemplifies this, I think. When that score kicks in, that you

remember, you are kind of like, well, it's sort of Pavlovian. You're like, I love this. Did you see fucking Hans Zimmerimmer just tweeted are you ready for the music and it's like hans you know that's like the only thing that we're ready for his only oscar yeah he should have 20 you should have more for sure it's weird that it's his only oscar but it's a great score it is a great one and but yeah also am i ready for the music like I heard it in the movie The Lank. I have it on my iPad right now. Right, exactly. I can get it on Spotify. Download it, yeah.

But that trailer is so... Everything that I feared, which is... If their faces are not expressive and instead are just animal faces, then what the fuck am I watching? I think it's very unnerving that the trailer only has like two shots of animals talking.

They know they can't do more because it looks bad and weird. It looks crappy. There are three instances where there's sync sound and it's not even for a full line. They only show the mouths moving for about a word or two. Which I think is worrisome. I'm sure it's something they're going to futz until the last possible second to make it work.

I feel like the Jungle Book had the same thing where the trailer also kind of hid that a little bit. By this point, they were showing it. By this far out, the first couple trailers were kind of oblique. By this point, you were seeing full Bill Murray dialogue. So then, do you guys want them to have human faces? Well, I think...

Just like re-release the fucking 1994 movies. Yes, which they did and it made $97 million domestic in 3D. Right. But also, I think Jungle Book, they pushed them a little further into stylization. Oh, okay. I didn't see Jungle Book. They stylized it just a little bit more, and they let the performances be a little cartoonier,

and they were juxtaposed with a real human being and it kind of worked. I don't love that movie, but I think on that level, that thing works. It also has a human, which helps. Right.

And this, I'm just like, they just, this looks like fucking planet Earth. That's the thing. It looks like planet Earth. It just looks like planet Earth. I cannot see the notion.

And I already think we've discussed this. And it's like, Scar is supposed to have a personality. It just looks like Planet Earth. I cannot see the notion. And I already think we've discussed this. And it's like Scar is supposed to have a personality. It just looks like a fucking lion. Right. We posted about this on polaroid.com. But it was like a bunch of screen caps. And we mislabeled one. We were like, that's Mufasa.

And somebody was like, that's clearly Scar. And we were like, they look the same. Is it clearly anyone? But that sort of literalism of like, well, I mean, we just didn't want Scar to be red in the new film because, of course, in the real Sahara, lions are not red. Make him red and make him hot again. It's like, who gives a shit? What are we doing here?

Simba used to be a very handsome guy. Yeah, he looks like, I mean, this is the thing, it's like, if you're telling me Scar can't be red because we did the research and lions in the Sahara aren't red, is Scar gonna sing a song? Is he gonna sing a song? Is he going to sing a song? No,

they fucking cut Be Prepared. That was like the big news. They cut. I know. Hey, hey. They cut Be Prepared. I know.

The mics are literally catching on fire. That's the second best song in the Lion King. They cut Be Prepared. Circle of Life. That's the only good song in the Lion King. Be Prepared fucking rules. Be Prepared rules. It's great. I love Be Prepared. Elton John went fully off love be prepared elton john like be prepared should be your sixth best song it might like if you're making

a humming disney musical yeah you know your villain intro song should be like really good but not you know you're saying it punches above its weight class for the standard villain song i think that the like you know more cheerful Lion King songs are a little... Yeah, they're kind of... They're a little teeny and annoying. They slap. Oh, you think they slap? I think when the beat drops.

You like Hidakuna Matata? Yes. Do you think it's a wonderful phrase? Yeah. I like how they eat the grubs. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I like that. I'm realizing how instrumental Timon and Pumbaa

must have been in Ben's childhood. 100%. I was like, these guys are cool. They hang out around logs all the time. Sure. Sure. They're dirty boys with like,

I don't know. I better get some buggy in. And a lot of it in this new one. I think Circle of Life, the problem with Circle of Life is it's so fucking good. Yeah. Like after the first part of the opening,

you're like, well, this is the best movie ever made. And then like the movie is just sort of downhill. That's also that first stampede rules. That music is amazing. That first proper teaser where it was just the recreation of the opening of the film. And it just, the title card.

Yeah. Hell yeah. And I was just like this, okay, this could be the highest grossing film of all time. Like no one can fight this. It was the highest grossing. Oh,

you mean for the new one? When they just redid the original teaser, I'm saying. And even you who were like, this looks like a bowl of farts. You were like, I have to admit it's effective. It gets to you because of the nostalgia. And now in this one, you're like seeing the same things recreated

by less expressive animals and they're afraid to show the songs or the dialogue. I'm a little worried. But aren't you going to go see this anyway? I see everything. Well, I mean like objectively you're like Randall on the street. You watched Lion King when you were like five or whatever.

And you see this. I think for most people, yes, it's going to be an automatic no question. I got to see it. And I still think the film is going to end up probably being the fifth highest grossing film of all time. What's number one right now? Number one right now is still Avatar. Oh, wow.

It's Force Awakens domestic, Avatar worldwide. The whole problem with your argument is that Avatar is such a bizarre phenomenon. Yeah. And in my opinion, no normal movie will ever beat it. It's going to be something else we don't see coming. And my argument was that Lion King. He's on the case. I've seen people that Lion King... He's on the case. He's on the case.

I've seen people projecting that Detective Pikachu might be the highest grossing film Warner Brothers Pictures ever released. What's that current record holder? I think that current record probably has to be Dark Knight still. Let's look it up. Let's look it up. One second, I'm looking it up. That's my guess.

One second, please. What I was going to was gonna say was dark knight domestic at least yeah yeah i felt like if they had nailed that if they had figured out a way to make it photorealistic but to have the animals be expressive it was like slam dunk yeah like 2.2 billion and i thought it had some of the weird Avatar fluke stuff. Yeah. In terms of it, like, not skewing to one gender more than the other. Dealing with this sort of, like, sense of nature. You know, this very sort of mythic storytelling. The Lion King is Avatar. Right. There are certain parallels in terms of, like, what they're keying into.

But now they're so scared about clearly, like, they're not making this thing work. Here's another thing that's scary in the trailer. A lot of these animals in real life, pretty gross looking. They're kind of boring. That's the thing. Like when you see a warthog at the end of it. It's almost like they cleaned them up in 2D animation for a reason. Right.

I'm just like, look, I'm not saying I can't like dirty Pumbaa, but it's certainly more of a barrier. That immediately was. Because you forget just how fucking ugly warthogs are. Yeah. That came up in the slack almost immediately because we were like,

I do not like warthogs. That's gross. That's kind of creepy to see like a meerkat singing. Right. It's going to be, they cut Be Prepared? They cut Be Prepared.

Why would you cut that? I don't know. Because, because. Because they want to be arrested and deported. They want, right,

they want to be brought up in high crime. I'll tell you the actual reason. Okay. Because they had to be arrested and deported. Right, they want to be brought up on high crime. I'll tell you the actual reason. Because they had to add songs, both for Oscar qualification and to sell Beyonce on taking the role. So Elton John wrote two new Nala songs. And I think they were like, we have to have a fixed number. One must go. Like, of them all. None of what you just said

is giving me a lot of hope. I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm just saying that was their reason. But, like, keep me prepared anyway. Yeah. And also, like, The Lion King is 88 minutes long, the animated film.

No question this thing's gonna be, like, 212. Exactly. It's gotta be 212. I heard, like, a rumor was, like, 129 is the same as running time or something like that. You know, Beauty and the Beast added 40 I heard like a rumor was like 129 of the same running time or something like that. Yeah. You know, Beauty and the Beast

added 40 minutes to its running time somehow. Yeah, with that one song. I'm the beast. It sucks. I wish I wasn't the beast. What's it called again?

Like Forevermore or something like that? Yeah. The weird part is like that is a song that's extant in the Broadway musical. That's quite good.

And then they just wrote a whole new one. They wrote a new song occupying the same narrative. A different version of the same thing. Yes, right. Because they didn't want to get that Oscar nom. Which they didn't, right? No, they did not. I just remember that he's like on the top of the castle.

He's like, no! I went and saw that movie. I went to the bathroom. And when I was gone, no! I went and saw that movie. I went to the bathroom. And when I was gone, that number had started. And I came back and the Beast was just on the balcony singing to the skies. And I was like, what the fuck happened while I was peeing? I mean, that movie is cataclysmically bad. I mean, you know my take.

I think the first 30 minutes of that movie are good until they meet the Beast. first 30 minutes of that movie are good until they meet the beast i think the first 30 minutes are kind of a weird like like uh condon doing his bride of frankenstein thing yeah and i think they botched the beast so hard and once they get into like redoing those numbers with the creatures yeah it it totally falls apart say for one performance luke evans is good there's one performance of that movie that is the most consistently I have laughed at any. Tucci? I'm not going to say at.

With. Tucci rules in that movie. There's one that's even better. Who? It's Audra McDonald. Oh my God. As the dresser. The animation of the dresser is so fucking weird.

Yeah, that's true. And her performance is so good. I was in on that. Okay. Trailer number two. Aladdin looks like a shit show, right? But like the kind of shit show that I feel I'm so afraid that I'm going to like so good. I was in on that. Okay, trailer number two. Aladdin looks like a shit show, right? But like the kind of shit show that I feel I'm so afraid that I'm going to like so much. I think so too.

It starts off strong with parkour. Ben likes the parkour. It's another one of these things too, like The Lion King. I mean, he does parkour or he jumps around rooftops in the animated movie. And we're going to get to how Dumbo avoids this trap. This is of course what I was trying to cue up is that Dumbo doesn't do

what the Lion King does. But also what Aladdin does when you watch both of these trailers and you're like oh so they like muted all the colors. Yeah. But then like the beautiful technicolor animation is now just like Wait Aladdin's so colorful. The Guy Ritchie one? Yeah.

Like the parade and all that shit. I think it looks really dusty. It looks all dusty. It does look very dusty. And then I think you have certain costumes that look even still a little muted from their original versions. Yeah. I think elements are colorful. I think it's got sort of like a sand patina, which the nice thing with Aladdin was like sand's the base color. And then you got all these other things popping.

If Aladdin was like Sans the base color and then you got all these other things popping. The other thing that worries me, watching this trailer in a theater, which I had not seen it in a theater before until I saw Aladdin. I just watched it on YouTube, you know, low 75 times. And I was just like, oh, this trailer has like six different shots of someone running away from a building collapsing. Why does this have this many like Iago flies out of a crumbling like fucking marketplace or whatever. So there's going to be like

six set pieces. Guy Ritchie. Looks like so many fucking And there's going to be something about how like he's like a bare knuckle boxer at one point. And I'm like fine

with the parkour shit because at least No, it's just like in King Arthur where it's like King Arthur we all know him he's a fucking box innie you know and he's like boxing with people where it's like King Arthur. We all know him. He's a fucking box. And he's like boxing with people.

And you're like, what's going on? And the parkour thing is like that's in Aladdin. Like the opening is like him sliding away. But he's singing. Right, exactly. Where I'm like, you can do that. I'll give you that. Sure, sure. Of course.

I don't want him to be doing knife tricks. I mean, that must be the Richie pitch, right? It's like he'd be good at that. He's going to make us Richie rich. Does he do a knife trick in the trailer? No, I'm just saying that's the kind of thing I don't want to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of other things.

I don't love... Right. Go get me carpet. If he's a street kid, he's probably doing some shady stuff. He's probably doing some shady stuff. He steals a loaf of bread and then gives it to orphans. Aladdin's not shady. He could be, though. and then gives it to orphans. Aladdin's not shady.

He could be, though. What the fuck? Then it's like if he got the lamp, he'd be like, I wish pain on my enemies. I don't think it'd go that well. I'd watch the fuck out of that movie. Aladdin's just murdering people? Now, I'm going to say the thing that I think we all agree with that might be a controversial take to most.

I think Will Smith's genie looks like the best element of that movie. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's the element I'm most intrigued by. Because it's the weirdest one. Exactly. It's the one thing that looks weird and I will say the effects have gotten better between those two trailers. It looks less uncanny. When people are like, it's weird, it's blue

Will Smith, it's like, what the fuck do you want it to look like? He's playing the genie. My only problem in that first sight of him yeah in the the thing that everyone sort of derived it yeah his body looked very squishy it just looked off well as many pointed out cloud body that's the problem is that in the cartoon he's supposed to be a cloud yeah right and in the cartoon he's sort of he's like a triangle he's like got you know big big uh torso but it works because the guy's not supposed to have any density any weight but also the idea is he's like a triangle he's like got you know big big uh torso but it works because the guy's not supposed to have any density anyway yeah but also the idea is he's coming out of a

lamp so he sort of comes to a point right which i like i think that's cool right it's a little unnatural i think it's cool i think he's pretty cool i think he lives in a lamp he lives people live in a lamp he's a cool guy okay now we have to talk about a real American hero and his name is Forky. I'm hearing the Mullers looking into Forky. That's all I'm saying. It's not true! I'm just

hearing, you know, Assange went down today. He's got some Forky's next. What if there was a photo of Forky with a long beard being dragged out? Forky's in the Bolivian embassy right now, but he won't leave. He wants to leave. That's the interesting hook to Forky.

He doesn't want to be a toy. He wants to die. He wants to be thrown out in the garbage. You think that's going to be the plot? He wants to die? Yes. Why am I alive? Throw me out. I don't want to die? Yes. Why am I alive? Throw me out.

I don't want to have sentience. Why have you cursed me? Okay, if that's the actual plot of Toy Story 4, that's interesting. That is the plot of Toy Story 4, my friend. You're not doing the heavy lifting. Is it, though? Is that the plot? Or is it going to turn into some bullshit

about how Woody needs to learn about growing up again or something? Can I tell you what I believe the plots of Toy Story 4 are on the record? Okay? Yeah. Forky doesn't understand why he's alive. He thinks that it's a burden. Right?

Existence, mortality. This isn't stuff. Right. Right. The quintessential millennial storyline right you're singing my song okay woody tasks himself with trying to convince forky that being a toy is important and is a good life but in trying to explain it to forky in a way he has not before because every character he's interacted with is also a toy he starts to realize that his existence is kind of

meaningless he exists at the mercy of uh uncaring gods who will so quickly throw them away and he's invested his entire life in this belief that being there for a kid is some noble calling and then he meets bo pe, who was discarded by society. Some fucking porcelain doll, too fragile to exist in our world, who is like, fuck it. Kids are the past. You just gotta live. We're tiny toys in a

brutal world that could crush us at any moment. Just fucking live. I don't want to have a kid. And through meeting Bo again, who's been living on her own in this fucking post-retirement, empty nest life of just like, I'm done with the rat race.

Like, I'm just about me now. And Forky, who's like, I innately don't understand why you would want a kid. I think Toy Story 4 is about Woody realizing he doesn't want to be a toy. And what does he want to be instead?

I think he wants to be Woody. Like he wants to be woody i think he wants to be like a sentient creature who's not tied to a owner correct that's a lot to throw at the audience can he talk to humans then he always has had the ability and i he does talk to sid i kind of think he's gonna talk to a human in this movie. Oh, shit. I don't know. But then what about all the other toys? I think all the other toys are going to stay with Bonnie. I think the film will end with Woody convincing Forky to stay with Bonnie,

and Forky will kind of take the Woody role, and Woody will ride the road. Woody and Bo Peep just living until they break. You gotta live in the moment. You can't be at the mercy of some child. Right, right, right. This is some new territory. I feel like it's maybe too new. I don't

see Disney taking that much of a leap. Exactly. Look, if they're going for that, okay. I see shades of that in the trailer. When people go, the trailer's a mess. It's got 17 different tones in it. I advise you to look to any other Toy Story trailer. All of them are like that. Yeah, look, look.

You think about this shit a thousand times more intensely than I do. Probably most people do. I've gone so deep on this fucking thing. Exactly. I have my beliefs. I see certain things that can affirm them. There see certain things that my beliefs from them there's certain things that scare me sure but we will see but that is my belief the story they want to tell if that is the story they're telling i am so all in yeah i have my fears but i found the new trailer

encouraging okay the new trailer is fun it's good when does it come out july good june june june i think june 15th or something. I'm ready for Tony Hale to have his time in the sun. Tony Hale's going to have his time in the sun. Doesn't Tony Hale have like two Emmys? He's in the sun. They've never given him a chance, David. Tony Hale? He's never gotten a shot.

Tony Hale's doing great. He's doing just fine. He needs four. Let him play first fiddle. He has two Emmys. How many Forkys does he have? Yeah. Just the one. David's looking it up. It looks like just the one. One roll as Forky. Let him play first fiddle. He has two Emmys. How many Forkys does he have? Yeah. Just the one. David's looking it up. It looks like just the one. One roll as Forky. Okay, so let's talk about Dumbo.

Let's get ready to Dumbo. Because here's the thing that's really interesting about Dumbo. It is only kind of a remake. That's the thing. That's what I like about it. Because it essentially goes through the plot of the original film, which is only 63 minutes long. It condenses it I like about it. Because it essentially goes through the plot of the original film which is only 63 minutes long. It condenses it to like

43 minutes. Adds in a bunch of new stuff. And then for the rest of the movie he's just riffing on what would happen next. Yes. 100%. He is riffing on that and he's also riffing on his own career. And through Dumbo. He has kind of found

because he's always you know we've talked a lot through doing these episodes about how his early outsider movies are so locked into that feeling of like alienation and then perhaps as he gets more and more success what I have glibly said before as he gets happy which many people have in the reddit gone are you saying he just stopped being depressed and I don't believe he was ever that depressed and depression is in that condition, this and that. And I go, no, I'm not saying it's a depression thing. I just think he found his place in life

and perhaps felt a little less out of place. Sure, or others might just say, like, he did his thing and he had done his thing. And he got his sort of validation and they gave him the box and he could do whatever he wanted with it. They gave him that endless sandbox and the, you know, all the paints in the world he could ask for. But Dumbo is kind of the first time he has made a movie about his career as a weirdo who then like the studios.

Yes. Yeah, it's reflexive. Yeah. 100%. That's what I think. That's when the movie is like the studios. Yes. Yeah. It's reflexive. Yeah. 100%. That's what I think. That's when the movie is like fucking humming. It's a little insane

that the three of us are on the same page with this though because literally everyone else in my life is like no it's boring. It's a bad movie. I'm surprised by how

many people are going like there's nothing there. This movie has no reason to exist. That's insane. And I'm not going to say this movie completely sticks it.

No. I think it is good. I think it's good too. I think it's insane. And I'm not gonna say this movie completely sticks it. No. I think it is good. I think it's good too. I think it's good. Again, I think it's he doesn't hit the net, but he hits the backboard. It's still impressive. I think he hits the net. Damn. So here's my big take I want to throw out.

Okay? Because I think this movie's good. But about halfway through it, I was like fuck. From the most unlikely of places, I see how this movie could be a full on masterpiece and we talk a lot about how Tim Burton not a big fan of plot right he works better with films

that are kind of episodic that are ensembly and this movie has an ensemble works best when it's kind of zooming out and when Dumbo is sort of just the audience vantage point for this tapestry of everything going on around him I think it's kind of zooming out. Sure. And when Dumbo is sort of just the audience vantage point for this tapestry of everything going on around him. I mean, I think it's very telling

that he does so much like Dumbo POV in the movie. That you have so much elephant vision stuff. Because it's like, right. Elephant eye. He's like really trying to put you in the place of this creature being freaked out by everyone looking at him. Going like, when are you going to do the weird thing you do? Right.

And that shift from revulsion to like admiration that I'm sure Tim Burton felt. Right. There was a thing that was circulating around recently that a bunch of people like sent us on Twitter. That was Tim Burton when he was an animator at Disney. After he got his teeth out. Had his wisdom teeth taken out and then he didn't wipe the blood off of his face and he came into Disney Studios

with his wisdom teeth and carried them around and showed them to everybody and it's like that's just who that guy is and everyone at Disney was like what the fuck are we going to do with this guy and then somehow they were like you want to make a movie about those teeth and then the movies were giant blockbusters.

You know? Yeah. And the exact thing that people used to be like kind of freaked out by and felt like pity towards him for then became like this asset that the studios tried to weaponize. And I think he kind of got lost within that system. Now, this moment of clarity, I went like, fuck, the best version of this movie might be the one that doesn't even attempt to have the conventional Colin Farrell and his kids spine as a through line throughout the movie. Hear me out. Yeah, the kids are the worst part of this movie. Don't you take Colin away from me. Hear me out.

The kids could literally, in one scene, die in a fire and I'd be like were there kids in the movie I don't even remember Ben is shocked he likes the kids the kids are bad I like the girl a lot she sucks she likes STEM

but she likes science she doesn't have to be like you know cute and like Disney has successfully pandered to you my friends yeah

they did I liked it a lot it is amazing how they just picked like one thing they were like well you know she likes science well that's the thing

they've been picking for every... They keep doing it. Wrinkle in Time. But at least Wrinkle in Time is a movie about math. Yeah. In this, she's in a circus. I would be like, if I'm Colin Farrell, I'm like, listen, you don't go to school. You're not going to be a scientist.

Learn other shit. Right. It's time for lunch. And she's like, let me eat my lunch scientifically. It's infuriating. No, you better eat your lunch quickly. because you've got to clean an elephant cage. She's like, I love chemistry and Marie Curie, and the only thing that they show is she has a chemistry shot,

she never opens it, and then she goes and sits in front of Marie Curie. When's she going to open it? Their mom died. That's true. They live in poverty. Let her have science. What's she going to do with it? Also, what is she doing?

She's not doing anything with it. She trains the fucking elephant using science. No, no, no, no, no. She trains the elephant using animal training. She calls it science. This movie has good values for kids, and I don't want you to see it. I agree, but I think those values

are sold through Dumbo and the adults. I don't think the kids really... The kids are a little boring. The kids are a studio now. A hundred percent. Well, it's also a movie for children. I mean, Dumbo's a child. That's the thing.

I think they probably underestimated how well Dumbo would work as an audience surrogate character. That's a little weird considering that they'd made this film called Dumbo. Yes. In which there are no children. Right. There's a little weird considering that they made this film called Dumbo. Yes. In which there are no children. There's a mouse. Right. But there's no kids. Okay, so this is my big idea. Yeah. So, Dumbo, a film in which all the other animals

talk. The humans don't really have big roles. Dumbo himself is mute. Sure. You're talking about the original. The original, right? And it is another one of those kind of like he's the ultimate vulnerable, sympathetic creature. You know, he's kind of a cipher of just like you have to pour your emotions into him. Yeah.

Because he just represents anyone sort of weird quirks and their outsider dumb and their fears of abandonment and all of that. This movie beefs up all the human roles. None of the animals talk. I think they were afraid and they were like, we got to make it like a babe thing except babe talks and all the other animals rules right but they were like it's just going to be like the james cromwell portion of babe it's about how everyone else reacts to this magical creature right sure but dumbo works so well and the human characters are most interesting when dumbo is clearly like mirroring some element of them that I was like fuck the version of this movie that I want to see what I think is the perfect live-action Dumbo

which this gets close to is like the fucking War Horse model or the like Oh Hazar Balthazar model where it's like I know that's true they should have gone into Disney and been like, can we have $170 million for an O-Hazard Balthazar Dumbo? That's why I would have pitched it as War Horse. Sure. Even though I don't think War Horse totally works. I was about to say, they'd be like, War Horse wasn't exactly burning the house down either.

I think you could do a movie that's not him being passed from owner to owner, but this film already ends up being somewhat episodic and you have different sections focusing on different human characters. When Eva Green comes in, she kind of takes over for like 20 minutes, you know? Sure. You start out with a lot of DeVito. I mean, Keaton has his chunk, whatever. Yeah. I think there's a movie where you just like really firmly

stick with Dumbo. I get you. I get what you're saying. And each human character, you know, it's like, here's how Dumbo relates to two children who have lost their mother. Right. Here's how Dumbo relates to Colin Farrell, who also has a weird physical quirk. Here's Eva Green, who's also forced to perform. Here's the two sides of capitalism in DeVito and Michael Keaton. You want it to just be the movie where it's like, each section of it, as Dumbo's career goes on,

each section he's sort of passed off to another character for like 20 minutes. And that's the- It is weird how little they're willing to kind of bank on Dumbo. They're like, he can't talk, so he can't be the main character. But it's like this movie is called Dumbo. Dumbo rules in this movie too. It's such a good character. They've animated him so well.

So well done. Yes. And a weird thing that we talk about why remake these Disney animated films and just make them less colorful, less expressive. The thing I love is that he does make Dumbo really cartoony in

a way that makes him very odd in a real world setting because all the other animals are photorealistic. And in the cartoon when everyone's like, that Dumbo, he's a freak. Right. I'm like, this is a cartoon. Everyone looks weird.

Sure. They all have giant eyes. And they all talk. Whereas in this, when the other elephants look totally photorealistic and then Dumbo comes out and he has like Disney eyes on the front of his face. And the ears have like such a real like weight and sense of physics to them. Yeah. You're like, that is kind of upsetting. I understand why this looks weird to people and why they would repel.

You disagree? He's so cute. He's so cute. To me, the craziest thing in this movie is that people make fun of him. I am not saying that he's not cute. No, I know you're not saying that. But he also looks otherworldly. I guess so.

Not cute. No, I know you're not saying that. But he also looks otherworldly. I guess so, but I know that he has to be bullied by the crowd because that's like one of the three story beats in Dumbo. So it has to happen. He's different. His name is... Yeah, his name is Jumbo.

I picked up on that. I picked up on the fact he's a little bit of an outsider. Our dear baby Jumbo. Oh no, what's happening to that dear? Oh, the Z's gone. Oh boy. I can't remember the last time we blew out mics this hard.

Somehow this is less listenable than our basketball influence. It was recorded in an arena as some shady boys. Yeah, some sneaky boys. Sneaky boys, not shady boys, sorry. We're shouting next to us. But he's so cute. It is genuinely upsetting when they start making fun of him just because like look how

exactly he's a little baby elephant it's kind of like the moment in shazam where the bullies beat up the kid with uh fucking um what do you call it crutch right bullies don't beat up kids with crutches that That's insane. Right. You would go to jail. Also, like, after they hit him with their car. With a car. They would run away. They'd be like, oh, my God.

We ran someone over. They wouldn't be like, ha, we parked there. Yes. That's our bit. Yes. We're bad at parking. But you know how, like, in the movie movie every time they introduce a new human character or they like introduce that character

to Dumbo they're like here's your job you gotta figure out how to do this with Dumbo. Like Colin Farrell hide those ears. Or when like Nico Parker herself is like we're gonna use scientific method to figure out how he flies. And then in all those cases they brush over that process. And what I

wanna see is like the 10 to 12 minutes that is just Colin Farrell one-on-one with Dumbo. I mean, I want to see that too. And mirroring with Dumbo. Well, you just want to see Colin. Because you realize like all these characters

have these Dumbo-esque qualities. Yeah. And they all go from being kind of freaked out by Dumbo to realizing like, oh, Dumbo's making me like address the things I'm too scared to address in myself. Right. My own weird broken qualities. And to realizing like, oh, Dumbo's making me like address the things I'm too scared to address

in myself. Right. My own weird broken qualities. And it's like, if you do that movie where he's not switching from owner to owner, but he's switching maybe

which person is taking the lead on him for that section. And then at the end, it's still everyone comes together to save him. That would be pretty fucking satisfying.

I think that is mostly what this movie is. I think it's close to committing that hard. And I think the problem is anytime it tries to string the more conventional, like the dad can't connect with the kids. Like there's too much of that filler stuff. Like it makes everything else kind of land less.

Colin does a noble job, but it just feels like them going through the motions with all that stuff. Look, I'm in the bag for Colin. I know you are. He never connects with his kids, which I really love about this movie. Yeah.

He is haunted as fuck. Yeah. He wants to be a cowboy who rides his horse. Right. And at the end of the movie, he helps Dumbo and the kids. Right. But I guess he has that one conversation

with his daughter on the bench, right? Yeah. But there's never, he's haunted forever. I like that that's the choice he made, where he's like, no, I think this guy might not be fully recoverable. It's sort of like Casey Affleck in Manchester.

But in this scene, he's like, he can't beat it. I'm not gonna beat this thing. He lost an arm, he lost his wife, he saw the war. But I'll say this, it's like on the same kind of note, okay? And I understand why like obvious disney don't note you do this yeah don't you think the movie's kind of better if colin farrell isn't the father of those children uh yeah i i don't he doesn't need to be their parents two separate satellites why can't they just be kids like any circus would just have some

random weird child labor right like like random orphans they kind of picked up. That's the thing I was going to say. If it's still the premise of it's two kids and their parents died and now they're just adopted by the circus. And they're kind of like. And you just don't have to deal with it. The circus is like a weird makeshift family. They were like, Nutcracker and the Four Realms flop. What can we say from that?

And they were like, take the girl. Is she in the Four Realms? No, but the characters like literally the same. she loves science and her mom gave her a thing or later she's like oh it was in me all along they must have added that because you know the story of that movie right four realms having two directors no i mean i mean i was initially gonna make it but it's just gonna be three realms they added a fourth so i guess i guess you know that we've talked about this what that it originally going to be three realms and they added a fourth? I can't believe you don't remember this. This is like a whole bit we did on the Star Wars board episode.

Yeah, I guess I remember. You idiot. It's one of the greatest bits in the history of blank check. Really? Yeah. Weigh in and let us know. Anyway, so they must have added the stem stuff later. That's all I'm saying.

But it is kind of beautiful when this movie starts. I was trying to like dramatically sip. It's good. I'm saying. But it is kind of beautiful when this movie starts. I was trying to dramatically sip, but I'm sorry, out of liquid. It is beautiful when this movie starts and it's like,

no, he's doing the opposite thing of what everyone else is doing when remaking a Disney animated classic. He's making it arguably more cartoony. Like, this movie

is so colorful. Well, his use of CGI has always been so weird where he doesn't use it in the way that anybody else uses it. He's just like, I'm going to make this look as less real as possible. And look, do I prefer practical burden? Of course. But I think this is the best he's used CGI in the last 10 years because pointedly they shot this whole movie on sound stages. They planted grass.

They built physical sets. The stuff that's CGI is the sky. Right. The whole, like, what's it called? Dream World or Dreamland? Yeah. Which one is it? Dream World.

Dream World, yeah. You know, that's a real set. Dreamland, I think, yeah. No, it's Dream World, according to. I thought it was Dreamland. You know what? Wikipedia has both in the description

Colin Farrell was talking in that interview he gave about like walking around the set and how insane it was you know yeah they built it

this movie cost 170 million dollars yeah they spent the money for this people on reddit saying like how did it cost this much and it's like there's

so much money in this movie even things like when they have that weird like world's fair exhibit of like the family of tomorrow and it's all the automated robots in the living room.

That's a very expensive thing for two shots. Essentially an in-joke. How come we don't have that technology? Like the family of tomorrow technology? Rube Goldberg toast machines and stuff. I want that. That's just a toaster. Why aren't we the Jetsons? I toast machines and stuff. I want that. I mean, that's just a toaster.

Why aren't we the Jetsons? Yeah. I want to wake up and I want eggs to fly over my head and land on a plate. Do you folks know Simone Gertz? You must know Simone Gertz, who rules. Yeah, amazing. She's from Sweden. Is that correct?

Simone Gertz. She's a YouTuber. Uh-huh. She does robots. Right. So she makes robots, the kind of things that the Jetsons promised us, where it's like a toothbrushing robot or a hair-washing robot, and they just don't work.

But the videos are beautiful because she just deadpans doing a daily task while a breakfast machine fucks everything up. I mean, that's funny. It's just those machines without precision. But I loved that in the movie. And it's just like, it's clear, the bad side of late Burton is just like, they'll offer him anything.

So he'll sign up to do a movie because he's like, I don't know, they'll let me do five shots that I think are funny. But he did find the kind of in here. And he even said, he did one of those like Vanity Fair, like breakdown anatomy of a scene or whatever videos with him and uh my my girl colleen atwood yep and he was saying i have done movies that are all cgi and i hate it it's really difficult and i don't think they turn out well

tim yeah stop you don't have to well that's why i think he's like i'm getting out of that and he was like it's like impossible you can's like, I'm getting out of that. And he was like, it's like impossible. You can't like line up a shot. You have no focal point. And he was like, so for this, I was like,

we got to make as much of this practical as possible. So the sky is CGI. Right, right. Then the Dumbo CGI, obviously in those elements, but like the sets are really real. And we built like these massive dome sets.

I don't hate it. I don't either. Uh, and, uh and uh uh the this opening of the film is very colorful another weird thing as you said his use of cgi has been used to like smooth out people's faces smooth out everything and desaturate everything to such an insane degree it's all blurry all blurry all gauzy all like nearly black and white. Yeah. You know, with maybe a couple purples sneaking through. And in this movie, you're like, it still looks weird.

It's still blurry, but the colors are there. It's a pretty rich, vibrant movie. It's a vibey. It's vibing. Dreamworld is popping off. It's got different aesthetics. That's another thing I like about it. Is that like the different areas you go to

have different styles. I agree you've got the you know what's it where Missouri is it again Joplin Missouri. Yes. Right. Very you know sort of Norman Rockwell you know bright orange fields and all that. And the sun faded paintings on the

sort of chipping wood. Yeah. Carnival baby. Old trains are fun. I like the implication. Old train. Love an old train. I love that opening. Love an opening train. Yes me too. Carnival, baby. Old trains are fun. I like the implication. Old train. Love an old train. I love that opening. Love an opening train. Yes, me too. Casey Jr. was playing the song and doing the montage.

And I thought all the multiple travel montages of the acts on the sides. Love it. And the implication that DeVito's been playing two guys. I need to talk about this. He's playing two guys. It's insanity, though, because they, like, they, like, imply it, as you're saying,

and then Michael Keaton at one point is like, you've been doing this because you've always wanted a brother, and then they never bring it back. I wish they had

even more of that. Yes, I agree with you. I want that main text. I want a Padme, you know, Amidala switcheroo where halfway through you realize, no, there's only one man.

Where's the Sabe in this equation? And here's the thing. Thank you for laughing. It's not like I need that to be, like, you realize, no, there's only one man. Where's the sabe in this equation? And here's the thing. Thank you for laughing. It's not like I need that to be a big plot point. Sure. But in the movie that's more about, which is when this movie works, it's doing this. But in the movie that's even more about just these humans relating to Dumbo and reflecting to them,

I kind of want Danny DeVito to have a scene where he emotionally opens up to Dumbo. Right. He's like, we all got an act, kid. We're all lying. We're all pretending we're something we're not. He's so committed. I gotta tell you the truth. It would have been incredible. He is so in the

pocket in this film. It's incredible how locked in he is in this film. It's a little sad that he kind of disappears in the last half. Even though that's sort of the idea. He's been subsumed. I like where the movie Right. But I could watch. I like where the movie goes.

I like all the insane Tim Burton talking about how Alice in Wonderland ruined his life. But if it was mostly just set in Joplin and set in this little circus. Yeah. And it was just like DeVito and like a family trying to like pull themselves back together. Yeah. I might enjoy that too. DeVito could have done it. That sounds pretty good.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it would need toVito could have done it. That sounds pretty good. Yeah. I mean, it would need to be like 80 minutes long. It would need to be like very short. I just feel like DeVito, you know, especially like post Always Sunny has become like mostly just a comedic figure of anarchy. A hundred percent. He's become troll foot guy. Right.

And it's nice to see someone give DeVito like a chance to play emotions again in a role he could have phoned in. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. We've all seen all those interviews he's been doing where he's like, I called up Tim and I said, I got to be in. It's really sweet. I got to be part of this thing because I believe you got to find your feather. And he goes on his whole like existential speech about like, we all got our feather.

It's his first film in three years that's not, like, a voice performance. What was the last one before this? In 2016, he's in the Todd Salon's movie, Wiener Dog. Right. And he had a small role in the Taylor Hackford masterpiece, The Comedian. I believe

he plays Robert De Niro's brother. I think you're right. I've seen that movie and reviewed it. It was one of the worst movies I've ever seen. I think you're right. I've seen that movie and reviewed it. It was one of the worst movies I've ever seen. I think you're right. He's married to Patti LuPone in that movie. Who's the mother,

the sister-in-law who's always like, why you gotta be a comedian, huh? Yeah. Yeah, pain in the ass is what you are. You ever try not telling jokes, Phyllis?

Geez, you're always getting on stage and taking a microphone in your hand and telling jokes into it. What's that about? The comedian, of course, which is about to be remade as the Joker.

What if it turns out Todd Phillips, the Joker, is like this exact same script as Taylor Hackford's The Comedian, except with face paint? Having seen The Comedian, which includes a scene where he kills Clarice Leachman's character through laughter, well, includes a scene where he kills Clarice Leachman's character through laughter, goes viral by doing like a pooping rap at an old person's home, and then has an affair with Leslie Mann, I think it'd be great. Yeah.

It'd be good. Nothing more criminal than that film. Yeah, agreed. But yes, the zoning chunk, I mean, there is that kind of nice haunted Colin introduction of him getting off the train, the zoning chunk, I mean, there is that kind of nice haunted Colin introduction of him getting off the train, the kids waiting for him,

seeing him running towards him, and then slowing down as they get closer to the missing arm. Right. He does make this very bold choice to be just a guy who's never coming back. Oh, boy. I do think, I know you love Colin.

I know he's your favorite. Get the fuck out. Are you going to criticize him? I'm not. I'm going to say a thing that I think you're going to be hard-pressed to disagree with. Even if it starts to sound like a criticism, I think you're going to, oh, David's doing such a grouchy face. I think you're going to be hard-pressed to disagree with this, okay?

Go on. Colin Farrell. Oh God. The face is so grouchy. It's like a real sour lemon face. It's amazing. Colin Farrell. CF.

Is exponentially better as a leading man when the budget is below $20 million. Of course. Or in a bigger budget thing playing a supporting character here's the reason for that yep I mean in my opinion the main reason for that is that Colin

is always gonna be a fifth choice for a huge blockbuster for this type of film exactly as he was here yeah

um who were they trying to get Casey Affleck Casey Affleck would have been weird Will Smith but Casey Affleck

Bill Hader whoa was someone they really wanted Chris Pine okay and then eventually we get around to Farrell and Farrell

took the role Farrell doesn't do a lot of these movies anymore and said he basically just took the role because he wanted to work with Tim Burton

which is I feel like still the case for a lot of people who work with Tim Burton now the Hader one is interesting because this is the other part of my

Hader bringing Barry energy? Like, bringing Haunted? Might be good. I mean, look. He is truly one of our finest actors. I have contended for a long time Bill Hader is probably

one of the ten best actors alive. Okay. I truly believe that. Sure. He's great. Yes. And I think he's certainly shown that he can do a lot more.

It would have been interesting to see him in this. I think the other certainly shown that he can do a lot more. It would have been interesting to see him in this. I think the other thing is Tim Burton leading men, when you have your sort of generic leading man character, they tend to fall into the background unless they're played by a comedian or someone with a strong comedic background. Yeah. But also like Colin Farrell.

I mean, this is such a haunted role. He's also just like normally he's like not interesting to look at that's fucking like he should have like the lobster mustache or glasses like he should be doing something too i was like he's so handsome and she was like he's so handsome it's a little boring unless he musties himself i'm furious i'm not saying i agree with this. I really like your girlfriend, but I'm pissed off at her right now. I'm not saying I agree with this.

Jesus Christ. But it made me go, hmm. Yeah. Like something weird should be occurring. Yes. Like Jude Law. Like Dom Hemingway.

Interesting. That movie, whatever. The movie blows. Chunks all over the screen. But he's like way more interesting as a bleeding man in it. That's some ham sandwich shit. Because he looks like way more interesting as a bleeding man because he looks like a fucking insane-o. And Jude Law, our friend Joe Reed was

famous, Jude Law weirdly gets hotter when his hair starts growing. Jude Law has figured it out and I appreciate that. I love Jude Law. I'm happy that he is in this new zone he's in. Sure. I do think there's a thing with Colin that he is so perfect looking. Like he has such a... I mean like that's in. Sure. I do think there's a thing with Colin that he is so perfect looking.

Like he has such a... I mean, like, that's great! I don't agree with you at all. I think Colin really has the face of someone who's... He has the face of someone who's been through a lot of shit. Which he has! He's got a really worn, leathery

quality to him, and it's why I love him. One of the many reasons. He's a handsome boy. I mean, there's no question him, and it's why I love him. One of the many reasons. He's a handsome boy. It looks better on a Mendelsohn face. There's already interesting shit going on there. Get out of here! We're going to tell Karen to get out of here for finding Ben Mendelsohn more attractive

than Colin Farrell. Stop dissing Colin. It's not a diss! I still love him. I just think, in a role like this, he works better. And it's the same thing. It is nowhere near as disastrous. But you look at like,

Azria Butterfield, and you're like... Is that how you say his name? I don't know. Who knows? Asa Bessa Butterfield. I think it's Asa. Yeah.

You're like, oh God, this film needs someone who is funny playing this part. Because he tends to not know how to connect to. But Colin's so funny. Like, not in this. But like, you know, he's very, very funny.

That's the thing. I agree with you. I think he's like the Madonna movies. You know, like he's very good at the sort of like live wire stuff. Right. And then also the Lanthimos movies. He's very good at the weird sort of sad sack humor. And he's the best part of Horrible Bosses.

Yeah, absolutely. He's very good at comedy. Of course, the greatest comedic performance of the 2000s, Bullseye. Top of the morning to you. There's something going on in that movie. I would have nominated him for Best Supporting Actor. Yeah, I love him as Bullseye.

I mean, that movie is horrifying, but yeah. But he is a guy who, unlike someone like Hater, who even when playing someone like Barry, who is very haunted, has an innate comic energy to him that you can't knock out of him. Right. Whereas Colin Farrell is capable of going just totally straight or being totally sinister or totally romantic. I think sometimes he feels a little bored by it. I think you think of what's it called?

Total Recall. Yes. I mean, that movie's worse than this movie. But, you know, where he's just like, what am I doing here? And he is a haunted guy. So haunted. He's best when people let him play that. And he's also one of these guys we talk about a lot in this podcast.

A lot of our favorite actors who are like incredibly handsome men who are sort of mistaken for leading men, but are really character actors. He's got that. He's got that going on. No question. Yeah. Colin's got that going on, no question. Yeah, Colin's big time in that category. Except he's a great leading man. But is he a scum bum?

He certainly can be. I don't know if I'd classify him as a scum bum. No, he for sure is. He can be scummy. Are you kidding me? Have you seen True Detective Season 2? I have. Hello.

Yeah, I know. He's pretty scummy. He murdered a child. That's true. That's true, but it's not considered good. Welcome, Colin, to scum. He murdered a child. That's true. That's not considered good. Welcome, Colin, to scumbummery. I mean, he was trying to murder a priest, and he accidentally murdered a child. Right.

Which is, in my opinion, a little scummy. I think that's scummy technically, but that's not, like, when you say scummy, that's not the image. I get what you're saying, right? Aesthetically, he's perhaps less scummy. But I'm saying, like, you look at this performance. Dom Hemingway is scummy. But I'm saying like you look at this performance. Dom Hemingway is scummy.

We're bringing it back to Dom Hemingway. I haven't even seen the movie, but the guy looks good on the poster. Yeah, he looks great. He looks great. Richard E. Grant's wearing like Hunter S. Thompson glasses. It's great. It's perfect. There he is.

I mean, he certainly, I mean, Dom Hemingway is. He looks like a scum. Yes. I mean, that's the movie. The movie is just him being like. Yeah, literally. Colin Farrell's choice is to play the emotional integrity of this character. Which is surprising. But, like, everyone else in this movie is silly.

Agree. Everyone else. And he's being handed a character who is a armless war veteran whose wife died so you think he should be coming in and being like hey kids my bit is hot dogs i love him it just adds it without he needed something yeah this is how karen eventually like 20 years from now is like running a studio and like some directors like you want me to give him a mustache? And she's like, yeah, I'll give you a green light if he's got a funny mustache.

20th century Han. Right. And then, like, 20 years later, the guy's giving an interview to a journalist. She's like, Karen Han just wanted a mustache on him for some reason. That cost us $100 million. Karen is also, like, Agent Smith in The Matrix Reloaded, where she starts to infect everyone around her with her viewpoints. She hits your chest and you're like,

I guess I do want more craggle. I love Colin Farrell. I will defend him to the death. So I'm just saying, as opposed to Keaton, who makes one stunning choice in this movie, which is these movies always have this guy who is presented as benevolent and then you realize at the end was actually evil all along.

And you know from the moment the character's introduced that he has no narrative function other than to turn out to be evil. Right. He's just money. He's like, I'm a man who is made of money. He's big Disney. He's just walking money. And there's always that section where they're trying to fake you out that never works and it feels like a waste of time.

It does. And Michael Keaton's— He's like, let's skip all that. Right, exactly. Let's just do it to the end. What if I'm evil incarnate? What if my take on this character is when he's pretending to be the nice guy, he cannot pull it off. Right, exactly.

Everything he does is terrifying. Which is incredible, and it works with the thing that Burton's locked into in this movie, which is just like, no, it's just like these are like vampires in show business who just like suck people dry and throw them out. Right. And then like yell at them for not having enough blood. Yes. Yes. Yes. He's so good.

He's so good. He's amazing in this movie. He's insane in this. In that like anatomy of a scene thing on Vandy Fair Atwood and Burton said something Vandy Fair Vanderveer VA Vanderveer

I love the triple V's yeah I love that's not Vandermeer that it's Vandermeer the alliteration is good so good Max Medici

Vav great yeah but we were talking about how weird it is that Keaton is not in much of Batman Returns. Sure.

Which we were like, it's a bold storytelling choice. Right. As someone who has worked on a superhero TV show, I'm surprised that I didn't put together until they sort of said this in this video. I think he was like, hey, I hate wearing that fucking costume. Right. We're cutting my screen time down to like not. Because they were like, yeah, we like we like you know this is our first time

working with michael since like batman uh sure right like more than 25 years yeah right and he was like you know it was like kind of trying in our relationship that michael was so uncomfortable in the costume so when he signed on for this he had like extensive costume notes that were all about comfort so even the things like him having the sort of the ascot where he was like I don't want to wear a tie. Ties make me uncomfortable.

Wow. Jesus Michael. He's like wearing like loafers the whole film. Two years back in the spotlight and he's giving costume notes?

Well he said this in an interview too. He was talking about the wig. He was like I hate wearing wigs. I hate being in a megatron. I don't want to do it. And then like

he was the one who when he was talking to Tim he was like should I have a wig? Right. I know what this guy-a-ture. I don't want to do it. And then, like, he was the one who, when he was talking to Tim, he was like, should I have a wig? Right. I know what this guy's hair is. Right. But also a beautiful choice to make it a character who wears a shitty wig. Right.

So, like, the wig never even attempts to look real. It looks great. Right. The longer the movie goes on, they, without ever making it a total gag, just, like, make it more and more skew. Like, it never flies off. It's just weird. Right. I'm just looking at him right now.

I mean, you have a movie that is constructed so that the villain is going to bring about his own demise by like ridiculously like setting the whole place on fire. Right. And like that is nominally like that. I mean, that's just stupid. Why would he do that? But Keaton has done such a good job

playing himself as basically like a ball of lightning as a person business Beetlejuice as you said as Karen said like that you're like yeah he probably would just like throw the switches even though everyone's like don't do that you know because he's not of this world because he feels satanic

in this movie yes yes yes he is Mephisto I would watch an entire movie of just this character 100% I would watch an entire movie of just this character 100 i would watch a whole movie of this guy trying to like take over wall street yeah doing it and then causing the great depression because you know what i mean like i watch that movie yeah where he comes in teaches them things and everything goes up and then it all crashes down and he like jumps out of a window and disappears. That sounds glorious. Exactly.

I was very surprised he didn't, it wasn't and Michael Keaton. Is it and DeVito? There's no and and this feels like a movie that's begging for an and and he really is the shiny and part

because it takes a while for him to enter. Do you think it's an and competition? Where it's like DeVito, Arkin, and him are all potential ands on any project. So they were like, forget it. No and. Right. I think so. Instead, he's second Bill. I know.

Which is kind of surprising. But he is kind of a bigger deal than DeVito or Green these days. He's a bigger star, but DeVito really is kind of the second lead of this movie. I would agree. He arguably might have the same amount of screen time as Colin Farrell. He also has a better,

he's more compelling. Yeah, he's so good in this. Yeah. I just like how sort of innately this guy, while being kind of a rapscallion, believes in like the magic of the circus.

Like, weirdly one of those performances where I'm watching it and I'm like, Danny DeVito like should be a romantic lead. He's pretty romantic in this. Yeah. He's very romantic. You're right.

He doesn't really have that arc. No. A lady or a man. But he should. So talking about the self-commentary Burton thing, right? I feel like the DeVito character he is using to sort of express a a roger corman s you know yes it's kind of true remember when we all right we're kind of like you know everything was falling apart all the time but we were all in it together and there were monkeys

in the drawers but who cares but also that corman thing of like he was a businessman and he was ruthless and it was all about the numbers but there was weirdly some heart in it yeah and he kind of loved us all yeah right he loved his weirdos and he was like I want you to do better than me and like find a path out of here and it's like the stuff that Burton grew up loving is like this genuine trash right trash that wasn't crassly designed that had some heart in it that was made by this kind of circus energy of, you know, the outskirts of show business where it's like people coming together and going to a haunted mansion and gluing some shit to someone's face and trying to make a monster movie in five days. And then Keaton kind of represents Walt Disney. Oh, for sure he does. Yeah, 100% is Disney. The only reason I want to say he represents only kind of Walt Disney is because he represents half Walt Disney and half the 2019 Walt Disney Company.

Exactly. Because so much of his hostile takeover of the Medici Brothers Circus feels like the Fox takeover happening right now. That's literally what that is. Yeah, with everyone else getting kicked out. We love the history of Fox. We love it. By the way, we're only going to make two Fox films a year and all of you are fired. This is your office right here for all of Fox and that's that. Right. By the way, we're only going to make two Fox films a year and all of you are fired. This is your office right here for all of Fox

and that's that. Right. By the way, you have to fire everyone. Right. That whole thing. On the deal, does Murdoch, it was just a one time he got all that money? Correct. Yeah. He sold the studio, the film studio. Right. But it's essentially though, Disney gave

that guy's family so much money. i never really connect that dot right until really like thinking about it now but sorry to no no i mean they gave him the money that he would have made i understand i know but it's just what an evil motherfucker yeah yeah yeah yeah and it's one of those things too where you're like well okay so like you give him the money now he doesn't have as much influence over art, so that's maybe better for society, but you're also making him richer. But he also still has control over Fox News and News Corp, the stuff that he can use to cause his most damage. He recently fell down and almost died because he's very old.

And I think that was part of that thing of like, enough. Like, let's get rid of all this. And his sons who are being kind of tickled for it. Are just like, we don't want to run all of this stuff. Right. They're like, Fox News is his thing that he fucking wants and won't let us drop. And then the couple things were interesting. One of the sons wants Fox News.

The other one was like, let's get rid of it. Right. There's one liberal son. Right. James was supposed to join Disney and didn't. Yes. Because it turned out Disney were kind of like, let's get rid of it. Right. There's one liberal. Right. James was supposed to join Disney and didn't. Yes. Because it turned out Disney were kind of like, the Times had a hold.

Anyway, back to your metaphor. No, I do want to say this, though, not to like open up a whole can of worms, but obviously the last couple of years, there's been a lot of conversation about like, who are you supporting by paying your tickets for this thing? And should these artists work with these people and this and that?

And it is very weird how just like 20th Century Fox News Corp never came into question of like, should you be making movies for Fox that are ostensibly funding Fox News? Yeah, but they weren't really. They were divided companies always. No, and I'm not saying that like,

it is that one-to-one. It's just weird that that never really happened. There was the one moment where Fox News started there was a call to violence and then a couple Fox TV people were like, I'm going to end my overall deal when it naturally expires four years

from now. I think Feig did the same thing, which now he's just left Fox totally. He left, yeah. Right, but a lot of them were like, I will leave as soon as my deal is done. It wouldn't matter for him. Yes. It is just a weird thing. I mean, that's

the thing. Like, right, it's, you know, V.A. Vanderveer is maybe, like, the Walt Disney Corporation as run by Rupert Murdoch. Like, he's maybe closer to Murdoch in temperament and personality. Sure, but he's got a bit of a Disney look, you know? Sure.

And it's sort of just that idea of like the way he enters from the car. Yeah. It's like, wow, this like magic man. And then he keeps selling. There's nothing like him, right? He's like evil wonky. Yeah, right.

You've made me a child again. Like how sinister everything sounds like wait a second aren't you an adult like why are you talking like this why do you want a dream world like all the words sort of questions that come up from that weird borderline lisp and then like very weird affectations when he's very weird affectations and and the notion that so much of it is like a persona he's creating to like sell the sort of like the whole company line of wonder but then the other I mean it reminds me a little bit of

like when Michael Eisner tried to make himself Uncle Walt and would like introduce all the things he was like nothing's more magical to me than Tinkerbell and it just never like he had such a heavy hand he was a studio guy not all of us can be Reggie I remember when Tom Hanks played Walt Disney in a movie I think He was a studio guy. Not all of us can be Reggie.

I remember when Tom Hanks played Walt Disney in a movie. I think he was really good in that movie. It's a weird movie. He's about to be Mr. Rogers too. That's fine. I'm into that. Colonel Tom Parker. He's got that energy. Disney wasn't like that. No, he wasn't. Disney was like a

chain-smoking maniac who was like, draw faster I'm gonna build a city under the ground have we already talked about whether we think his head has been cryogenically frozen that's made up right why would you cryogenically freeze a head can I throw up my hottest take

because at that time people didn't know what they were doing. Here's my hottest take. Oh, where is it now? They're like, yeah, it'll work. Barbra Streisand has cloned dogs. It's fine. I think he did it. And after 15 years, they were like, this thing's like rotting.

Let's just like throw it out. I think they tried it and it didn't work at all. And they just gave up on it. This rumor began in a print article in EC Paris that has been largely distributed to Disney executives who hated Walt Disney trying to humiliate him. Ooh la la.

And his daughter was like, I don't think my dad knew what cryonics were when he died. Like, she wasn't even like, this is ridiculous. No, he would never do that. And he would definitely never be in like a chamber in orlando like she's just like what how great would it be though if like he played it really close to the vest and like eight years from now when bob eiger steps down he's like i'm very proud to announce my successor mecca

yeah or it's like he's like a zordon where like his head's in a tube yeah yeah for sure he's like disney's ip portfolio is stronger than ever you have to explain him like what spider-man is now the other thing i think is really interesting oh you have to show him the new like mickey mouse animated weird comics too anyway Anyway. Oh yeah. I think those are good. No, they're really good. I don't think I saw them. They're new Mickey Mouse cartoons that are actually funny.

They're really bizarre. Where you watch them and you're like, oh right, this used to be like a comedic character who had a personality. That's the thing people forget about Mickey Mouse. Yeah. He wasn't introduced as a mascot. It was a cartoon about a funny mouse.

Yeah. Here's what's crazy. They have these new cartoons that have this very weird specific art style. It's like Adventure Time, but mean. Yes, and Mickey is kind of a little stinker.

Yep. Like the way Disney had like sanded off all of his personality because they were like, he just needs to sell beach towels. Right, right. Now there are things

where he like is like petty. Yeah. And he like tries to trick Donald. Yeah. He gets like angry at Goofy. I feel like that's right. Once we were kids, Mickey just didn't have a personnel. That was the problem.

He was just boring. And now he's like, Donald, I swear to God. Are you auditioning to be the new Mickey? Maybe. It's Chris Damantopoulos or whatever his name is. Man of a thousand voices. What I want to say is the other shading to the Michael Keaton character, which gets to the other main live action performance we have to talk about here, is the weird implication that he has never had sex with Eva Green, but wants everyone to think he has. Yeah.

And by choice is not interested in her sexually, but wants to perpetuate the notion that they are lovers. I didn't read that. I thought it meant that he just has multiple mistresses. But she says to him because Colin Farrell's like, must be nice to be a boyfriend. She's like, we are not that at all.

I'm just like one of his girlfriends. That's how I is. She said I'm one of the rings, the jewels he wears to reflect light back onto him. Which I took as... She's like a trophy and arm girl. But I think the full extent of that relationship is the trophy. Here's the thing we can all agree on.

Because you get the sense that once they're out of public, they just go completely separate. And here's the thing we can all agree on. Kids love this stuff, what we're talking about right now. When kids are watching the movie, they're like, yeah, what is going on here? That ring line is really evocative. Right? But that's where, like, the weird

Burton stuff comes in. Yeah. And it's the other thing that, like, now it's crystallized to me what's kinda cool about Eva Green in these Burton films. And, like, Peregrine suffers from not having her for most of the movie. Yeah. Dark Shadows, I was in a very bad mood when we recorded the episode, and I wish I had defended her performance a little more.

I don't think any of us were mean to her, though. We were all just sort of like, yeah, she's doing an Eva Green thing. That character sucks. Agreed. But I think she's a lot of fun in that movie. She's great. That character sucks. She's a great screen presence.

She's wonderful. I highly enjoy her. I wish she was not in the zone she's in where she just doesn't get to do anything good. Agreed. She's good in this. She did Casino Royale and then it was just after that. She's incredible. That's one of the great performances. It's unbelievable. In this

what I found really interesting is after two Burton films where he casts her as some variations on a witch. In this she does not play a witch. Interesting. And it reminds me a little bit of your beloved Christa Waltz in Alita Battle Angel.

Are we getting into Alita talk? Right? I think she's got a similar thing going on in this because there is something innately weird and menacing about Eva Green. Right, right, right. And she has this weaponized sexuality. She always makes sexuality scary, which I like that because she does that. She doesn't have a, right, right. And she has this weaponized sexuality. She always makes sexuality scary,

which I like that because she does that. She doesn't have a rocket hammer, though. She doesn't. I like that because she does that, she is maybe

the only actor in the Burton canon outside of Pfeiffer as Catwoman to successfully smuggle sexuality into a Tim Burton film. We don't think

DeVito Penguin was up there. I mean, he fucks. He cries. Yeah. fully smuggle sexuality into a Tim Burton film. We don't think DeVito Penguin was up there. I mean, he fucks. He cries. Yeah. I love boobies. Yeah.

That's what he's like in them. Right. I just like this movie revealing her as like at the start you're just like, oh, this is some weird like gothic ice queen character.

This like unapproachable arm's length. And then you get to the back hallways and she like shows up in her like weird gym workout harness. Like her gothic harness.

I love that. Right. And she's like, look, I'm a performer. We're all just like doing our bits. They want me to ride the elephant?

I'll ride the elephant. Right. We don't have any relationship. I'm just some street performer from Paris. Like, let's get down to work. I love that scene.

I think it's one of the best scenes in the movie. I think she's really good in this. The Dumbo training scene that they're doing with the net. I like her weird, uncomfortable kindness in this movie. She is a fully decent character

who isn't super adept at expressing kindness. I think it's flirty. That thing where Colin's like, oh, you're not all dolled up anymore. And she's like, hmm, fuck you. There's a lot of sparks flying. Well, we know you just love bossy girls. Karen's got my number. She's right.

I love a bossy girl. Yeah. Bossy round face. That's my type. Bossy round face? That's the thing. Bossy round face? It's the thing my friend said to me many years ago when I was in a theater with her

and there was a trailer for, I think, Short Term 12. One of the Brie Larson movies. The earlier one. And I was like, I have a crush on her. And she was like,

yeah, she's got the round face. And I was like, what? And she was like, you always like bossy round faces. I know everyone else has already memed this some weeks back.

Okay. But God, what an incredible fucking casting job on that movie. Yeah. Wait, on which movie? Short Term 12. Oh, of course. I rewatched it.

Also, that movie's just good. It's incredible. That movie still rules so fucking hard. I want to point out that I had Caitlin Dever and Keith Stanfield on my Oscar ballot that year. Same here. I had Brie Larson. I had three of the four acting categories. Brie's my winner.

Yeah. I think Lakeith was my winner that year he might be let's look at the old spreadsheet for Davey this is my new favorite segment

I think I lost my rich text doc because it was back on my Windows days that is hysterical anyway my point is I thought I love Ava Green

I think she's boring in this movie and I also think that scene with Colin is boring their flirtation is dumb and I didn't like it I liked it but I also admit I might just be in is boring their flirtation is dumb and I didn't like it I liked it

but I also admit I might just be in the bag for the second they're on screen together I'm like yeah those are two people I would like to watch have sex

okay sure and I'm no prevert but occasionally you see two nice a prevert? I'm no prevert but occasionally you see two nice

looking movie stars in a movie and you go like yeah I would be into that and the two of them with their like, sort of like bruised, like smoky,

like sad sexuality. I'm just like, yeah, give me those, those two raven haired beauties. I don't think she's born. I think she's really good. And I like, I like that she is very kind in this. It's the same thing as like the Alita thing where she's like,

where Christoph is like just dad. He thing where she's like where Kristoff is like just dad he's she's similarly not trying to play against her innate energy she's imbuing it with a lot of other things that no one else has let her color around the weirdness I think this like I get what you mean but I like think it'd be better served uh by the version of Demba that you're kind of describing earlier I agree agree with you 100%. Yeah. Sure. And at that point, maybe I was really locking into like each character,

what they were doing on their own. Yeah. And like, how would they react in a scene just with Dumbo? Mm-hmm. When they're talking

to other humans, I'm a little less into the movie. The dialogue borders on horrible. Yeah. 45% of the time. Yeah.

Yeah. And a lot of the human stuff feels indifferent yeah until you get to those moments where the character sort of says they're like mantra you know in the way where burton's like oh that's the thing that's what they're about right the difference between these people these weird broken people who are compelled to do their weird thing whether or not there's an audience yeah and only know how to like relate to other weird broken people yeah and the people who just see those people as dollar signs.

Yeah. And anytime it's in that sort of dialogue, you know, the movie I think is really humming. Anytime you're just on Dumbo. Yeah. The movie is really humming. Dumbo's a good sweet boy. He's a good boy. I think that he's great.

Yeah. Another thing I think we should talk about is that anytime that Dumbo flies in this movie I cry tears from my eyes. And I think partly it's the Pavlovian I loved Dumbo. I'm getting chills just thinking about it right now. It's great and it's shot so well

when he just swoops through the entire tent. It's amazing. I think that trailer is underrated as one of the great trailers of recent times that ends with DeVito going whoa as he flies over the short trailer. I think it's amazing i think that trailer is underrated as one of the great trailers of recent times that ends with devito going whoa like as he flies over the short trailer i think it's a beautiful teaser i think it's so good but anytime he flies i also just think that if dumbo flies like you could i cried tears from my eyes yeah but like i'm trying what's like the most incongruous movie like you could uh fucking dragged across concrete if dumbo like flew in the middle of that movie, I'd probably be like oh, look at Dumbo go.

And that's another thing where it's like, you put the genie and CGI and live action, and you start to get all these questions of physics that work against the character, but when you have a real kind of semi-tangible looking elephant.

Agreed. And you see him flying. He goes like. It's great. The original Dumbo is better but the flying in this is more visceral and more emotional. He feels heavier

when he takes off. He feels so fucking heavy. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. The original Dumbo is better except for the crows.

The crows. Which is rough. Yeah. Right. It's no good. But you know. It's no good. It's no good. It is rough. Yeah, right. It's no good. But, you know. It's no good. It's no good.

It's an 80-year-old movie. It's no good. The other thing that's fascinating about Dumbo that I feel like has been discussed and I think I talked about in my review is that that movie was made when Disney had no money. They had sunk all this money into Fantasia and it hadn't worked.

That was their budget sort of programmer. They were essentially like, we need to make something cheap and fast that will float us. It was the only one of the first five Disney films to make a profit upon release. Because it was so fucking expensive to make an animated movie.

And this was the one right after Fantasia, right? Yes, Fantasia was the one they sunk all the money into. My sweet baby Fantasia. And Fantasia's obviously a masterpiece. And I'm glad they made it. And I think it probably eventually turned a profit and Fantasia's obviously a masterpiece. Right. And I'm glad they made it. Yes. And I think it probably eventually turned a profit because they would keep re-releasing it.

The re-release model comes out of like, I gotta figure out a way to make these movies go into the green. Well, that, but also videos didn't exist. Yes, sure, sure. But it's crazy to think about that Disney, that sort of lean, cheap Disney, versus this behemoth that

made this movie that is going to be a bomb. Yes. It did okay, right? It had like a 70% drop in the second week, which is crazy for a kids movie. But this isn't a kids movie. Yeah. I mean, I think they're realizing now that outside of

the initial sort of like novelty factor of the first couple. Right. These live action Disney's kind of need to be in the Renaissance era. Yeah. In order to really make. That's where the nostalgia is. The nostalgia buttons aren't as hard for the generation that would now be taking their kids to set.

Maybe they were like sort of bewitched by like Maleficent doing well. But like that's an Angelina Jolie thing. You know, it'sina Jolie thing. That's a Charlton thing. Thank you so much. Talk about another very weird performance. So much. Even by his standards. By his standards.

I really like him in that movie. I'm sorry. I mean, that's a very carrot opinion. I'll say this. Charlton made my best supporting actor for the A-Team. I think he rules in that movie. No, he's good. And I find that movie to largely be a disappointment.

Tiresome. I don't even think of that movie as like a disaster. It's just boring. Yeah, I agree. Right. I think he's so good in it. Well, because he goes like full weird in it. Maybe for the Patreon one day we can do like a blankies episode for a yesteryear.

You know what I mean? Oh, that would be kind of fun. Like a 2002 blankie. We pull up our old files. That'd be fun. I've implied a couple of them. Exactly. Call us Earl and Daredevil.

Yeah. Shilto's good. His career is gone though. His career has gone. Disappeared. Didn. All right. Shilto's good. His career is gone, though. Yeah. But that's like- His career has gone. Yeah. Disappeared. Didn't go south.

It just went. That is the weird snake. It went hardcore, Henry. It went hardcore, Henry. He's very good in Hardcore Henry. Yeah. What? Have you seen that movie?

No. He's very good in that. I kind of liked him in Free Fire, which is another movie I did not care for. Well, he's always good. I never saw Free Fire. Especially when he's allowed to be mean. Sure. Because he has such a specific sharp face and a specific sharp energy,

and whenever he's allowed to use that, it's great. He looks like a snake. Oh, it's amazing. He's a human snake, man. I love him. He does. Also, Free Fire, amazing cast, horrible movie. Very bad movie.

Very bad. It's not good. Noah Taylor is in it, and it's bad. And only Karen would say that as if we're like, Noah Taylor? in it and it's bad and only Karen would say that as if we're like Noah Taylor I mean I like the guy

they got the raw sex appeal of Noah Taylor yeah all 75 pounds of Noah Taylor I just think Ben Wheatley

is one of those you know he's what's he doing he's got a lot of skill but I don't like was he supposed to do a DC movie

was he gonna do Deathstroke no no no one of those I don't like this movie so much. Was he supposed to do a DC movie? Was he going to do Deathstroke? No, no, no, no, no. One of those. I don't think so. He does weird movies where someone gets run over by a tractor trailer or whatever. I liked Field in England. I believe he was supposed to make a DC movie. Was Joe Manganiello playing Deathstroke?

Was that the one he was playing? Yeah. Yeah. I think he was supposed to make a Deathstroke movie. I'm going to look it up right now. You go right now. What I was going to say is the weird thing about this movie is that it is kind of the snake

eating its own tail. It's insane that they took this little Disney let's keep it small and simple movie and blew it up into a $170 million tentpole film. But then the movie also because they hired Tim Burton to do it.areth evans was gonna

oh okay uh because they hired tim burton to do it then becomes about how these things get corrupted by getting overblown right yeah you know yeah i know i know like i would be against making 170 million dollar dumbo unless it is what they did which is a movie about how you should never make I know. Like, I would be against making a $170 million Dumbo unless it is what they did, which is a movie about how you should never make a $170 million Dumbo. In general, I have no objection to that. Yeah.

If I'm running Disney, I might have some questions. You wouldn't have let me run Disney. Okay, Karen. Thank you so much. Okay, let's do it. I appreciate it. Wait a second. I'd like to say something. Go on appreciate it um wait a second I'd like to say something

go on Ben wait a second I'm sorry Eddie Marzen cast as Ariel in Little Mermaid I'm just getting a bunch of

Disney news breaks right now more Mike Lee to direct the Aristocats oh Jesus like what's one of your truly fucking Oh, Jesus. Like, what's one of your truly fucking depressed ones?

What's one of those bug nuts? Exactly. Oh, I don't know. What's the clip that your original KB video ends with? The military clip that's all the old men mark. Oh, it's from Bedknobs and Brimsticks. I just thought it'd be funny. Like, I don't know any of those actors individually,

but I was like, this is a good movie. David Tomlinson is up there. He's great. Yeah. He's fucking great. If you remade Bedknobs and Broomsticks, who would your Tomlinson be? I would resurrect him from the grave.

It would be like Paul Sparks or someone where you're like, I guess I know who that is. I love Paul Sparks. And Karen's like one of the five best actors alive. It's true. He is. He's great. I would give Jeff Nichols Bedknobs and Broomsticks. Yes. Right's true. He is. He's great. I would give Jeff Nichols bed knobs and broomsticks.

Yes. I don't know. Paul Sparks is too innately scary, I feel like. He doesn't have enough charming energy. I feel like that's true of 80% of Karen's boys. Yeah, okay. It's a little bit scarier. I mean, the Hugo Weavings

of the world. I was just about to say, what if I cast Hugo Weaving in the bedknobs of Prism? Have I told you? I told Karen this, but on set when we were filming season two, I showed Brendan Hines, who plays Superion, because he was telling me, I think I can say this, when we

were filming, he was subletting his apartment to Ben Mendelsohn. Wow. So then we were like nerding out on Mendelsohn. In LA, like because he lives in LA? Right. So he was here for filming. Mendelsohn was staying at his apartment.

Yeah. And I was like, oh my God, that guy's the fucking best. And he was like this and that. And I was like, I got this friend who like Ben Mendelsohn is like her Brad Pitt. Right. Like he's like the apex. And then he was like, who's this friend? So I showed him the KB video.

And then Brendan got very insecure about the fact that he might be too conventionally handsome to be a KB. But that's his lane, isn't it? It's like he's the guy who can play your Superman type. Right, right. And he was like, I could be like one of these guys. He probably could. He's getting older. He probably could.

He's got salt and pepper. He wants to move towards that. But then he kept on sending me follow-up texts about what about this person. Really? Do they count? Yeah. That's really funny.

He has a lot of follow-up questions. That's the sweetest thing I've ever heard. He's very into it. It's extremely sweet. I would kind of qualify, right? Like, yeah,

we, when this house, we love and appreciate. Sure. He's a good one. He's great. He's a great one. Um,

doesn't listen to this show. Asshole. I hate him. I've turned. I hope he started listening to the show on this episode. That would be really funny. Yeah. I like screamed when you told me that story.

Right. Karen said, tell him I love him on The Middleman. I said, I could have auto-predictive text guessed.

Fucking love The Middleman. Your response. Yeah. Middleman rules. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. What other things

we want to talk about? I'm sorry, what? I know her a little bit. We should get her on. Who are we talking about? Natalie Morales? Yeah. Can we talk about those bad elephant boys?

No good. You tweeted that sans context and people were very confused. I know. And I stand by the lack of context. We were discussing this prior to you guys arriving because I was on time. Who gets stomped to death. It's fair. And he deserved it.

I was delayed for reasons that are under embargo. I like the value being expressed in this movie is if you're mean to animals, you deserve to die. Yeah, he dies. And he got what he deserved. He's dead.

There's like a strangely high number of deaths in this movie. Yeah. And always like in extremely unpleasant ways. Also true. Yeah. Do true things.

Lesson learned. Lesson learned. He shouldn't have been mean to Dumbo, I agree. He shouldn't have. Or Mama Jumbo. Yeah. Mrs. Do true things. Lesson learned. Lesson learned. He shouldn't have been mean to Dumbo, I agree. He shouldn't have. Or Mama Jumbo. Yeah.

Or Mrs. Jumbo. Mrs. Jumbo. Right. I mean, Michael Phillips was talking about how this movie has the like challenge of trying to make,

even though they said it even earlier than the original film. Right. Like making this film in a modern era where like every circus has shut down.

Yeah. And the circus that still exists are like, yeah, we're done with animal stuff. Everyone hates that. Yeah. And it's like innately cruel. Like there's no way to avoid the cruelty. Right. And like Dumbo is innately sort of a story about animal cruelty.

Yeah. And it has this ending where they're like, we're a cruelty free circus. And you're like, oh. It's insanity. Right? It kind of comes at a note. It becomes him doing like a used car salesman pitch straight to camera

yeah about how they like don't fuck with cruelty anymore I think that's good though for kids me too I got no beef with it

it's not really layered in that hard but yeah it's fine and I like Dumbo going back to Asia and flying among the elephants

I mean I love that that made me cry I mean you know it was really sweet made me cry. I mean, you know. It was really sweet, but it was also kind of like, what? Right. I was afraid that Mowgli was going to show up. Oh my god. I know the timelines don't totally matter, but I was afraid

that, because it looked like they just took the assets from Jungle Book. Maybe that's just what they did. Very possibly. Yeah, it does look like that. Yeah. The ending is weird. At least Jungle Book is green. How did they get the elephants back there? Who had the money to do that?

Wait, you're looking for plausibility? The guy had his friend and they were taking him back to Calcutta or something. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I like that. I know we haven't really gone through the plot that much. Maybe there's like an electrified circus city in this. Yeah, I like that. I know we haven't really gone through the plot that much. Maybe there's like an electrified circus city in this. Yeah, I love it.

I love all that. The second you get into like... Dreamworld's great. What do we think of the pink elephant sequence? Yeah, not a fan of that. Oh, I kind of liked it. I kind of like that because I like that it's just Dumbo going like... I fucking love the cutbacks to Dumbo's face where he's just sort of watching.

And I'm like, is this going somewhere? And it's like, no. Just a weird thing that happens in Dreamland. No, you like Dreamland. I'm such a good kid. He's a good kid. He's a good kid. He's a good kid.

He's a good kid. Yeah, he's good. Jesus. But here's the other thing we haven't talked about. Okay. We got to talk about Arkham. Okay. We got to.

This is the first Arkham Burton collaborationcan burton collaboration since edward suzanne's right there's no right for which he won the nobel prize correct correctly the only nobel prize given up for best supporting actor in this movie the daughter wins the nobel prize for chemistry oh my god um no one see that elephant fly he comes in this is a disaster he comes in and we have the presumption that Michael Keaton is the money yeah

and then he comes into the movie late and you're like oh here's Alan Arkin Oscar winner we know him and he's like I'm bankrolling this

and you're like he does the circus not make money like why do we need this character yeah he serves no purpose except to say

this is a disaster. Yeah. With, in a monotone. You got no act. Right. Not a flying elephant. He's an escape artist.

It's great. Right. I mean, it's terrible. I love every second of it. It is terrible. I don't care. Like,

you know what I mean? Three wrinkly gray boys. Yeah. It's my ideal movie. It's one of those performances where I'm like, if someone was like, yes,

but don't you see that on paper? Like, he's not giving any effort. He's not of those performances where if someone was like, yes, but don't you see that on paper he's not giving any effort, he's not reading any... I'd be like, yeah, no, I understand, I understand. I think he's very good. Alan Arkin falls into that Tommy Lee Jones category where if he hates the movie... Even if he's hostile to the movie.

It's still a great performance because you want him to be hostile. Exactly. In the same way, Alan Arkin always seems above it and over the thing he's doing. Right. So either he's locked in, he's doing it well, or he doesn't like the script.

Right. And he is doing it well. What is Tommy Lee up to right now? Well, he's going to be an Ad Astra if it ever fucking comes out. Shit, that's right. In which he went to Neptune and Brad Pitt has to go get him.

Yeah. AKA the perfect movie plot. Yeah, you're right. Like, that is the perfect movie plot. God, Adash is gonna fucking rule. Or it will knock him out. I think it's gonna be so good. No, it's gonna come out eventually. One hopes. Yeah, James. James Gray. The only, I love him, the only other thing

that he is in coming up is something called Arctic Justice colon Thunder Squad. Wait a second. Click through. Wait a second. I just got a news flash on deadline. Disney announces Tommy Lee Jones to play Bambi.

You're welcome. Directed by the Darden brothers. I mean the Darden brothers would handle the lessons of Bambi. The world is cruel right and man is evil

right it's Dumbo going from tree stump to tree stump begging people to not kill his brother oh my god just in full

Tommy Lee voice Arctic Jungle sorry Arctic Justice Thunder Squad is an animated film starring Jeremy Renner as an Arctic Fox

called Swiftie. No, stop reading. I'm done. No, stop. Stop. Okay, fine. Yeah, I don't. I'm sorry.

I overruled must demand more. Okay. Tommy Lee Jones is credited as playing, and I want to double check this because Wikipedia can be a little. He's not on IMDb. Is this like a weird independently financed by like a Russian animation yes and it's being shown by entertainment studios oh it's called Arctic

Justice Thunder Squad wow okay I'm gonna look it up more so you don't have to listen to David say it out loud because I see it's physically hurting you yeah that's all true okay so we're done with Dumbo is that it we agree that it's insane and it's about how capitalism overruns,

uh, any sort of unique product until it spoils it and requires a cleansing fire. It's just a massive irony that it's a Disney movie and that this is the message. And yet it's such a, it's like at war with itself. Like half of it is this like anti-capitalist message. And the other half is like, uh,

here's every other Disney movie you've seen, just sort of put in a blender. Well, and that scene where Michael Keaton is trying to sell DeVito out in the fields, right? That's so good. Right, and he's doing the like, look, I can give you everything. It's the argument that agents make when they

try to convince their artists to sign up for a $200 million temple. It's like you're gonna get such a big canvas to play with. If you do this right you have all the money in the world and then the next thing you do can be whatever you want. One for them one for you. It definitely won't be Dumbo 2 right. And then the answer is they like don't put out the net

you know. Oh. It's a great scene. They give you everything but like that's one of the scenes I mean there are a couple things like that scene is great. The first sort of tour of Dreamland or Dreamworld or Underland or whatever it's called where you see like the weird sort

of like forbidden planet space station with all the levers where they're all wearing their matching uniforms I will say it's interesting that Dumbo does the fudderwacken in this movie. Stop it right now yeah it is a little weird but all that stuff, like the weird,

like mechanical, like it feels like some like communist factory line. You know, like it feels like Metropolis or something. Yeah. Where they're all like

in these towers or like in these Moloch. Right, right. With these like adding machines and they're all wearing these like silver jumpsuits. Like just, you understand like the scariness to Tim Burton of these, like, corporate behemoths who are like, we love Wonder.

Right, right, right. But the guy saying it is like, oh, you know, we love Wonder around here. Now sit in your fucking box and come up with some weird shit. You know, it's like he's finally maybe starting to figure out where he kind of got lost in the woods. Maybe. We have done this miniseries wildly out of order for a number of reasons.

One is because it took five fucking months and we had certain guests available at certain times and this and that and what have you. All true. And so people have been saying, I feel like they haven't come up with this clean and arc for this guy. Sure. You know, and i'm waiting for like the real sort of hypothesis here comes dumbo theory right that pulls it all together and dumbo does start to bring the thing

into sort of focus a little bit but i will admit the reason why i've been pushing for burton for so long and your resistance was is it going to be like 10 great movies and then 10 weeks of you trying? Of you being like, well, there's something here and me being like, is there? Right.

And my hope was if we watch them all and we do them all in order, I'm going to figure out how to crystallize the thing. I'm going to either figure out conclusively what went wrong or I'm going to be able

to figure out an argument for why he never went wrong and all the stuff is still good. And I feel like I couldn't do either. I don't think that us doing it out of order is the only culprit. I mean, the last batch is just

sort of a mess, you know? That's an element. But I've seen a lot of things that people have said online and there's so many texts that are so good like in our Reddit community. They're good boys. I think a big problem with Burton is like the death of online and there's so many takes that are so good like in our reddit community they're good boys and someone's saying like I think a big problem with Burton is like the death of

screenwriting standards in the studio system that when these things are so prepackaged and pre-sold and you have people who go like you don't understand it doesn't matter it doesn't matter what happens in the fucking thing I just need five images to sell in a trailer for a guy who admittedly is like I don't have the best innate story

sense, he's probably better when he's teamed with a really strong writer and really strong producers who like hold his feet to the fire. And when a guy like this becomes this powerful and becomes this big of a brand name and they just go, we can sell it off of you, then no one's really testing him. And it's like the

prison of choice. Where if he's allowed to do anything, the technology exists for him to do anything no one's noting his scripts it actually becomes somewhat of a hindrance which is sort of the you know the Dumbo look you got everything but now there's no net and you have a really really high height to fall from

right there's that kind of thing we've tried to psychoanalyze him a bunch of times you know it's hard he's pretty opaque it's hard but in this movie I do get the sense of him going like look I genuinely have no fucking idea

and the thing that really clicked for me in this whole miniseries was rewatching Ed Wood a movie for the fucking 25th time it's one of my 5 favorite movies ever for the first time I saw it as autobiography. Not as a movie about the types of movies he loves. Right.

But a movie of him just saying, like, I have no idea why I'm successful and this guy wasn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do think, you know, there's a degree. I mean, Ben saying, like, I want this guy spaced. There's no saving him. like I want this guy spaced. There's no saving him. It's just like sometimes people just kind of are,

they line up with a pocket in culture, right? The technology's in the right place and the culture's in the right place and they get to verbalize something before anyone else does and somehow it connects and they get their Dumbo run where you get to like fly around like a weird big-eared elephant, right? And those things kind of can't last. get to like fly around like a weird, weird, big eared elephant. Right. And those things kind of can't last.

There are certain people we've talked about, people like M. Night, who went like very pointedly astray. Yeah. And then was able to analyze what he was doing wrong and course correct. Right. And Burns kind of a guy who's just like, give me a feather. I'm going to try something. Right.

Who doesn't have that level of introspection. I like the feather. I love the feather. He doesn't need it, though. No. He can fly good try something. Right. Who doesn't have that level of introspection. I like the feather. I love the feather. He doesn't need it though. No. He can fly good without it. Right. He's a good boy.

So, you know, I don't know if there's a set. He's a good elephant boy. Well, we all love Dumbo. I don't know if there's a set answer. If it's like, oh, he needs to do original material or he needs to do things that are this or this budget level or in this genre or whatever it is. But it does feel like for the first time watching this movie, I'm like, this is kind of a new in.

Because I'm just an outsider, innocent, in a world that doesn't get me movies, feel less and less sincere coming from him. But the movies where he can start to explain how the system takes advantage. Might be interesting. Not the fear of the outsider. No, no, no, no, no.

I get what you're saying. But the commodification feels like this is a way that he could evolve. But the fear is this movie's not doing well. Right. Is he going to retreat in some way? Who knows? I don't know. Maybe he won't get to make a movie this big for a while.

That might be good for him. Because he's certainly a reactive filmmaker. He feels like a guy who takes his losses hard. Especially in a way that makes sense for someone who had so much success out of the gate. He's not really accustomed to dealing with rejection. And so when he does in any way, he just sort of like

folds into himself. But I remember, I mean, a big thing that this podcast comes out of, and the whole blank check term, which is something my dad used to use all the time when someone had a big success. Right. Your dad named this podcast like inadvertently. Right. Right.

I mean, James pitched it because he knew that was the term that we both knew my dad using. I'm just like, man, that guy's going to have a real blank check on his next movie. And my dad would always say, especially with people I loved, he'd be like, I think that guy's just lost the plot. And I would always get so angry because I'd be like, I think that guy's just lost the plot. And I would always get so angry because I'd be like, that's impossible. Someone who's capable of making something this good can't lose the plot. We have to, much like Nico Parker, I was the little kid being like, we have to use

science to break down what went wrong here and explain it. You're explaining the origins of this podcast like years before it happened. Right. And I wanted to fucking do that equation on Tim Burton. And you're saying you haven't quite really gotten there. He's kind of the ex I'll never get over. Every single time a new trailer comes out, no matter how many times I've been burned,

I'd be like, what if it's like the old times again? Whereas I was fully over Tim Burton. And when Dumbo came out and I saw it and I liked it, I was like, is it just because I've been steeped in Burton for five months? You know, like, is that part of it? I don't know. Is it because he've been steeped in Burton for five months you know like is that a part of it I don't know is it because he put my boyfriend in the movie I don't know right but anytime I would ask these bigger questions and my dad

would be like you're overthinking it sure I'd be like cool I need to find friends like David Sims overthinking it you say could we like monetize that then make a podcast about it and I did like my foolish hope was that I'd come to something here. Whether it was like, I'm totally out on this guy

or I totally have saved him, that I would have some sort of sense of peace. And the answer is, sometimes people kind of lose the plot. Sometimes they can get it back. Sometimes it's inexplicable how it happens or why it happens. Well, I think just the culture changed. And he didn't change with it.

And that's just how stuff happens. Right. And that's kind of the beauty of the thing is it's like it doesn't make sense that he hit as hard as he did. And just as inexplicably, he came out of sync. You know? He had a pocket where for 10 years it was just like he was in there. And everyone got it. And he was totally unique.

Like, he was in there. And everyone got it, and he was totally unique. And the fact that he was doing all that at such a high budget level with such, like, sort of mainstream films was nuts. Do you have your list? I can do it very quickly. Okay. Because I've got mine. We've got to do them.

Okay. They rank. Yeah. It's time to rank. Sometimes we protect, but sometimes we rank. Karen's laughing. She shouldn't be. Wasn't funny. Wasn't funny. My standards

are low. It's okay. I'm doing it now, and hopefully I'm not forgetting any. So do yours with some drama. My filler Dumbo note is that the Arcade Fire song is good. I couldn't even get through the sentence, but I do believe it. It's good. It is good. I agree. I like that.

I'll be right back. Goodbye. Wow. Hey Blank Check listeners I'm Adam Kempinar. And I'm Josh Larson. We're the hosts of Film Spotting.

Which is basically Blank Check except in Chicago. That's not true. We both talk about movies. Sure but we're not very funny. But the movie thing.

That's the same. Also long shows. In-depth reviews and interviews very funny. But the movie thing. That's the same. Also, long shows. In-depth reviews and interviews. Right. Ethan Hawke, Paul Schrader, and Bo Burnham were all on last year. Plus, top five lists and other stuff every Friday since 2005. Rian Johnson said that nice thing about us once. A force for good in the universe.

He probably regrets saying that. Too late. We're keeping it. Film spotting wherever you get your podcasts Have a good show Griffin and David Are you ready for my top 19 Tim Burton movies It's 19 in total?

Wow what a run it's been So glad to be here with you at the end of this marathon I'm going to go 1 to 19 1. Edward 2. Beetlejuice 3. Batman Return. Four, Edward Scissorhand. Five, Pee Wee.

Okay, so that's five. Six, Batman. Seven, Sleepy Hollow. Eight, Mars Attack. Nine, Big Fish. Ten, Dumbo. Nice. Keep going.

Eleven, Sweeney. S keep going 11 Sweeney sweetie sweetie 12 big guy 13 Charlie 14 Frankenweenie 15 Miss Peregrini 16 Corpse Brine

17 Dark Shadows 18 Planet of the Apes 19 blank 20 blank keep going keep going 1 million 17 dark shadows 18 plan of the apes 19 uh blank 20 blank keep going keep going 1 million Alice in Wonderland that thing

is the worst thing yeah it's not good what's your favorite Burton Karen uh gosh

I just named them all I know they pass through my mind like water through a sieve wow um what was your number your number was Edward uh I really like I just named them all. I know. They pass through my mind like water through a sieve. Wow. What was your number? Your number was Ed Wood. I really like Big Fish.

Big Fish. The fish are big. But also, I feel like it's the easy answer, but Batman Returns fucking rules. Batman Returns is a good choice. I genuinely don't know. I think that Griffin's favorite is Ed Wood. But after that, I'm not sure. He's struggling?

Well, give me a second. I'll do mine. Beetlejuice. Oh, shit. Beetlejuice. No, no, no. Say it again. Oh, my God.

Oh, I'm sorry. That was close. Phew. Okay. But yeah, that's the only movie that I'm going to acknowledge moving forward. Yeah, I've heard it's... No, thank you. I've heard it's No, Thank You.

Yes. No, thank you. We've heard it's No, thank you. Yes. No, thank you. We were thinking about doing it for the podcast and then we realized most people won't be able to see it anyway and who fucking cares

and it's not even supposed to be that good. So we didn't do that. Instead we went to a Nets game. Yeah. I mean, that seems like a pretty good trade-off. 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,

13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. I'm forgetting one. Hold on. Hold on. Oh, no. Okay, it's 17, 18. I'm forgetting one. Hold on. Hold on. Oh, no. Okay, it's one I like. Michael Keaton, truly in command of all his power. You're absolutely, that's right.

Alec Baldwin, hottest. Yeah. Hottest pitch in the game. Okay, ready for my ranking? Let's do it. I think this is correct. I think you're going to be surprised with a couple placements. Sure.

Number one, Edward. Yeah. One of my, one of my top fivers. I mean, it was locked. Number two,

Batman Returns. Sure. That was a close number two. Yeah. It was three for me, but it could have been two. Number three, Beetlejuice.

Yeah. This is one of those things where it's just like, those three films. Those are my top three too. It's just, that's a perfect statement. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I do.

Keep going though. Okay. I'm just saying, we got 16 more movies. Number four, Mars Attacks. Four? Mm-hmm, my friend.

All right. Mm-hmm, my friend. I mean, that's fine. Whatever. I love that movie, as you know. I love it too number 5

Edward Scissorhands sure number 6 Peewee's Big Adventure okay those two are close for me me too

I could kind of flip them number 7 Big Fish sure you like that a little more than me it pays out like a slot machine this list is paying out like a slot machine

number 8 Bartman sure before he returns Pays out like a slot machine. This list is paying out like a slot machine. Number eight. Bartman. Sure. Before he returns. Number nine. Making it into that ten. I know what this is. Big Eyes.

A good movie that I wish our original guest hadn't bailed out of. Because they were going to take my side. Whatever, man. And instead the episode ended up being a classic example of cyber bullying. Was it? I feel like it was just you talking about what Big Eyes was and then me and the guest being like

I guess so. We don't really like it. We weren't like Griffin you're crazy. I watched it with my girlfriend. She had not seen it before. TC-14. She was like this is a masterpiece. I was like yes. Thank you. Can't wait to go into the studio and have Ben and David and Rylas eat some fucking crow. And I got in here and you cyber bullied me. I think we just didn't agree with you.

You cyber bullied me. Are you gamer gating right now? Gamers rise up. Griffin rise up for big eyes. All right, number 10. Sweeney. Sweeney. Number. I still can't believe you guys got Michael Cerveris.

That's the most amazing get I've heard in my entire fucking life. Good guess. He is a good, good man. Good actor, good man. What if we have him do the Ant-Man and the Wasp commentary? I mean, I'll ask him. I will say, much like Edward Scissorhands, an uncommonly gentle man.

He's a very relaxing man. Yeah. His temperament is incredible. Fully agree. So, of course, number 11 on my list is the existence of Michael Cerveris as a person. No, Sweeney was my 10. Yeah. I'm going to say that Sleepy Hollow is my 11.

Sure. I'm going to say that Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is my 12. I love Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Dumbo is my 11. Sure. I'm going to say that Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is my 12. I love Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Dumbo is my 13. Sure. Okay, so now we're getting to the territory where it's like, this is like, these are getting dodgier. The next three, I'm like,

Dark Shadows is kind of like a bridge to like, it's a mess. There's stuff I like in it a lot. Then we go to like Corpse Bride and Frankenweenie and I'm like, a little lifeless. Should I just never revisit Corpse Bride?

Because I really liked it when I first saw it. I think it's fine. I think it's cute. It's so slight. It's very slight. It's very, very slight. It's a little metatarsal of a movie.

Yes. Yes. She's correct.aren extended her fingers her fingies right and now we get to the only three that like drive me crazy uh-huh and they are peregrine sure which i still contend would be sort of in dark shadows territory if it had a performer who was awake in the lead i put that above dark shadows but Shadows. But sure, go on. I just like, I think Dark Shadows has some comedic energy to it and some good performances. Good Jackie Earl Haley. I was gonna

say. Yeah. Planet of the Apes, which, I mean, this was a real race to the bottom. I'm giving Planet of the Apes the slight edge over Alice in Wonderland because the makeup is so good. Yeah, Right.

You gotta give it the edge just for old practical movie magic on that front. Right. And Gia Motti selling aspirin.

Gia Motti. Sure. I'm the rhino. We're fairly similar other than me putting a couple of the later ones a little higher.

You had Mars a little higher. You know, I had Dumbo a little higher. I have Sleepy Hollow a lot higher than you. Yeah. Which I like sleeping a lot. Yeah Dumbo a little higher. I have Sleepy Hollow a lot higher than you. Yeah. Which I like Sleepy a lot. Yeah, it's fucking great.

I just wanted to show some respect for those guys. I'm so glad that you found your person. I think it's great. Yeah. Because I've watched that with TC13 or whoever it is I'm supposed to be dating. And she was like, this is boring reference system. Oh boy. Should we get into this?

I don't think explaining this can do us. Okay. Sure. Yeah. Um, character from phantom menace. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, the, the, the lady droid. Yeah. Got it. Got it. I said he wants to come on,

please. It's 2019. Times have changed, sweetie. Times have changed. Oh, no. Oh, boy. I went to WonderCon recently. You did?

We were there promoting the tick. In California. I did, for under $5 each, find a classic TC-14 action figure. Holy shit. Yeah, I saw that. You posted that, yeah. With the ComTech chip.

And I found a really nice Smiths. Ooh. Yeah. Now, there were two Smiths. I saw the back of your phone case. One. That's good. One cost $20.

Sure. Because he came with little Leia in a bundle. Aw. Oh, my God. And the other one was only five. But he's got a big cloth cape. Oh, I love a cloth cape. And because he's little, the cape's like swallowing.

What do you do? Do you take them out or do you keep them in their box? I usually take them out. But I've been kind of thinking about... Oh, there's a little Imperial Guard right here. Ben's red boy. I'm going to take her outer. I will say say with these...

We're talking in the tub? Gotta put them in the tub. You gotta put them in the tub. My tub barely room for water. Too many figures. What an image. I'm taking a fig bag. You've been considering stand-up material?

That's a great open bag. Do you take a lot of sponge bags? I sponge myself down with Orko. Ay, ay, ay. I lather with snake eyes. Wow. Glad Burton's over.

So long and farewell, my friend. What I was going to say is, I've sort of been forming a collection that I've been keeping in package of specifically our Star Wars friends. Like the characters that were the characters that really became big for us through doing those episodes. Because I like having

a little, it doesn't feel like part of my collection, it feels like a little history of blank check shrine with our old Revenge of the Podcast poster. And it's like, I want a Graga around that. I have my bigger TC-14. I want a Wado. And it's like, that's sort of my group.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I love that. It reminds me of how far we've come. We've come so far. And Gragra has been with us the whole time. I had a dream last night about finding a Gragra.

Does such a thing exist? Apart from as part of that Jar Jar thing? No, it does. And I had a dream. For some reason, the three of us were in a Walmart. And you were like, Griffin, we got to go. And I was like, I think I found a Gragas. Oh, my God.

I've never been to a Walmart. Ever? No, because they're not in the city. Are you serious? Yeah. Well, and your city boys lived in the city your entire life. Right. And they're not in the one city. Well, that well that's irrelevant though you're saying just as a place

that you would vacation yeah i also live there scoozy what scoozy no sorry hold on i was distracted what are we talking about i'm from london mate. What? There's no place like it. Wait a second. Ben, check your chair. Okay. Is there a weird lever or a series of gears? I'm out of shape. Oh no! I want you bleeders. It's the demon podcaster

of Midtown. Oh boy. I was in college. Who did you play? Joanna? Fucking baker Lady. Forgot her name for a second here. Angela Lansbury. No, I did vocal director.

Okay. And whatever random shit they needed. Okay, you did swing sort of ensemble business. I taught everyone their music because nobody could read music. You're big into music. Did you perform a lot in the musicals or did you more often do that? You did acapella, right? You were an acapella. Why would you dox me like this?

I'm sorry. I'm not doxing you. No, it's true. I did. I'm not doxing the name of your group or anything. I just remember that you did that. It's not hard. Yeah, I did acapella in college. I did musical theater in college. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the name from my... What's your other thing you did? Alto, tenor

where does your fall I can do whatever I mean like I didn't do it seriously enough that I ever

had to think about it that hard okay I like doing it but that was it I trained

in classical piano that was my background one of my favorite bits you do is when you

go look at how hard this song slaps and then you post a screenshot of sheet music

what was this Sinatra song oh yeah Karen tell me you're like look at this fucking thing this is like a thing that Karen like woke me up with one morning it was in the group chat I don't remember what song it was but I literally

literally like New York New York like it was certainly you're right yeah I think it was new it was a very famous song it was, but I literally, literally like New York, New York. Like it was certainly, you're right. Yeah, I think it was new. It was a very famous song. It wasn't like a deep cut. No, no, no, it wasn't.

And she said, do you want to say it or should I? Uh, I'll say it. I said, no, you say it. Well,

I believe you posted a, I did a link to the song. Yeah. And you were like, I'm listening to this. You just don't get horns like that anymore. Something like that. Right.

Yeah. And everybody got very mad. We were just like, New York, New York? You mean like start spreading that song? You just don't get horns like that anymore. It's good, sure. It's sort of like the Star Spangled

Banner. Someone was like, what a great song. And I'm like, I guess so. I certainly heard it a lot. No, but I maintain that I am right. Brass is not a huge component of most modern music. This is true. You're right. Bands sort of eschewed the brass.

But we should go back. You don't get brass like that anymore, but we should. It's great when you do. That's why I also like when the orchestral scores, they go back to being like the 60 whatever piece orchestra. It's the best. Of course, sure. You don't get press like that anymore. That's why my boy Mikey G, Jack and I,

he knows what's up. Right. Let's just briefly mention, Daniel Finn's score does not register in this book. All his other regulars are doing great work. Yeah, Colleen's doing amazing work. I don't know.

I should listen to it on the way out of here. I can't remember a note. I don't either. Aaron Kruger, the writer of a Transformers sequel, wrote this movie. I think three Transformers sequels. Yeah, at least three. Three, yay, yay. One of the good ones, though, I think,

and then two of the bad ones. Yeah. Good one? We'll get to that. Dark of the Moon. Do you want to say Winky Winky? No, because we're not

actually promising anything. That's not really on the agenda this year. You heard it here first. You should, though, say what is happening next week. No, no, we say that next week. Oh, right.

Oh! What specific thing we're doing next week. Yes. Next week, we will talk about the future of the podcast, the next couple of miniseries we're doing. We're going to announce two at the end of that episode. That's that.

That's that. Gore Verbinski twice. Backwards and forwards, Kyle Atlas style. The Cure for Wellness episodes will abut each other. Yes! Yes! No, that's not what we're doing. time was now i feel really my true day in the sun for kind of killing gore this year you you felt such guilt because you had that one tweet

and the the change was really dramatic and then you tweeted like eight more times we were like look i mean gore's got a lot of good stuff going on you know like you felt really but it was never recovered from demi was the one who swang demi demi swang demi did you see that yes you know when he he like retweeted the whole like yeah i'll come on the pod yeah uh that he will do yeah of course he's in the spreadsheet you should see some of the people in the spreadsheet oh my god oh my god we some good ones lined. I know we always say that but it gets exciting the more we go on. Well especially

since we've done so much Burton it's like oh yeah right new shit. A bunch of Demi Blu-rays arrived at my house today. Nice. A lot of people were like

I don't want to do a Burton get back to me in five months. You know we've had certain people who have been like hovering on the guest list for half a year. Oh no.

Uh yeah. We got some big ones, though. Before that, we got two other miniseries. Before that, we have a Ben's Choice. Benjamin J. Hosley. I don't know if your middle name is J. It's McCormick. Benjamin M. Hosley. We haven't done a proper Ben's Choice in a while. It's been a long time, and I've always been promising

King Ralph. We'll eventually get to King Ralph. A Ben Porch classic. Part of the Ben Porch classic gold label. Part of my curation is weird movies I just had on VHS and just watched religiously. But I decided to switch things up because I stan

I stan What do you stan, Ben? How are you going to say this? Let him get it out I stand the stealing boys and girls The stealing boys? Wait hold on Assassin's Creed

Wait hold on Yeah you did I thought they were robbers too in my mind I mean you gotta get that apple They rob people of their lives With knives Shut up were robbers too in my mind. I mean, they gotta get that apple. They rob people of their lives. Yes, that is true. With knives. The greatest robbery. Shut up. Exactly. Shut up. We'll cut back

to like when I took a long pause. Grand theft mortality. Alright, go ahead. You stand for what? Assassin's Creed. Cool. And then keep in all the earlier stuff. Justin Kerzel's Assassin's Creed. I love that movie, Karen. It's good. He's seen it 20 times? Yeah, I watch in all the earlier stuff. Justin Kerzel's Assassin's Creed. That's what you like. I love that movie, Karen.

It's good. He's seen it 20 times? Yeah. I watch it all the time. He watches it when he can't fall asleep. Karen has a look of genuine surprise on her face. I've never played the video game, but those sequences are great.

No affinity for the game. I don't know anything about it. I've played Assassin's Creed Odyssey. No, I'm saying Ben has no. There's no element of like, I'm just so excited to see this realized on the big screen. I barely remember how that episode went, but I think it's weird.

It's super weird. It's super weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Weird movie. I own it in 4K. Oh my God. It's good. I like it.

It's a good movie. Next week, Assassin's Creed. At the end of that episode, we're announcing the next Q miniseries that's right mates why are you doing that voice times has changed sing it

I'm singing it did you ever do musical theater no I can't sing I'm not a good singer I did play theater a couple of your most recent sentences would beg to disagree

times is hard and do your Beast impression again. I'm the Beast. It's terrible. Nobody likes me. Do you remember how at the end of that movie Stanley Tucci who was playing a piano attacks all the robbers by spitting

out his keys and then the very last shot of the movie is a zero in on him and he smiles and you see all his fake teeth. And that's the last shot of the movie. Probably the best shot of the movie, too. Well, undisputedly. It ended on a high.

Exactly. And then they play an in-memoriam reel for everyone who was in it. Is there not a bit in that movie when all the household items start coming to life that the toilet talks and tells someone not to piss in it? Am I imagining that? You might be, but also I wouldn't be surprised if that were true. Or like a bedpan or something, a chamber pot. I feel like there's some human waste receptacle gag where it's just, don't you dare.

Oh, boy. You know, and Eileen Atkins plays the fucking... This is how it ties into fucking Toy Story 4. It's like, what should be rented life? Yep. And here's my question. My final question I want to ask you, Karen. For the episode. Now that we've come full circle. Okay.

Is Lumiere the ultimate KB? Because he is the man who literally is a melting candle. Yeah. Lumiere is played by Orbach, though. Oh, yes. Not McGregor. That's some real KB energy.

Yeah, he's up there. We're done. Before we keep going, we're done. We've done two hours, 15 minutes. This has been a great episode, but I think we're done. Karen, people can read your stuff on Polygon. Polygon.com, and I'm on Twitter at KarenYHan.

Strongest brand on the internet. Hell yeah. Tune in next week. Karen people can read your stuff in Polygon Polygon.com and I'm on Twitter at Karen Waihan strongest brand on the internet hell yeah yeah and tune in next week Assassin's Creed for the Creed join the Creed

yeah one of the top creeds one of the top creeds probably my third favorite Creed movie they gotta protect the seeds yeah

they do have to that is true yeah what if Tim Burton had made Assassin's Creed oh god so many seeds thank you all for listening please remember to rate, review, subscribe Yeah They do have to That is true Yeah What if Tim Burton had made Assassin's Creed Oh god So many seeds Thank you all for listening

Please remember to rate, review, subscribe Go see Dumbo Thanks for Guto for social media Go see Dumbo Go see Dumbo Yeah come on I mean this movie

bombing is only gonna make these live action Disney movies less interesting Yeah Right You know We didn't do the box office game

Whatever It came out a week ago It bombed It did 55 45 Do you know what the biggest bomb of last year was thing. Yeah. Right. You know not we didn't do the box office game. Whatever. It came out a week ago. It bombed. It did 55. 45. Do you know what the biggest bomb of

last year was? Shazam did 55. Biggest bomb of last year was Mortal Engines. Yeah it was. My sweet baby. The Engines.

Shrike. We stain a legend. Shrike is so fucking good. Shrike is so good. When he scream. When he scream. What's her name

again? Hesterprin. What did Tim Burton have done on Mortal Engies? What a rule. Morty Engies. Morty Engies. Morty Engies also

kind of couldn't be better. Mortal Engies is good. Easily be better. If I were Tim Burton, I would announce I was making Shrike the movie. Oh my God. How do I pitch this

to a major studio? Shrike's big vacation. Shrike's big day out. Big top Shrike. Big top Shrike. That's big vacation. Shrike's big day out. Big top Shrike. That's the pitch. Shrike by Aardman. Here's the thing. Mortal Engines is good.

Every time I recommend it to someone, I keep walking it back. I keep being like, it's great. No, it's all right. No, it's fine. Only part of it is okay. But here, I'm going to take it back on the record. Mortal Engines is top to bottom.

T to be good. She's throttling up again. I'm revving up. It's a T top to bottom. T to be good. She's throttling up again. I agree. I'm revving up. It's a T to be GM. T to be G. Things stand for good over social media. Yes, I agree.

Thank you to Lay Montgomery for our theme song. Okay. Show Bo and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Go to blankies.red.com

for some real nerdy shit. Go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts. Right. You can subscribe for blank check bonus features on Patreon.red.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts. Right. You can subscribe for blank check bonus features on Patreon.

Right. Talking about those Marvel movies. And basketball episode will be dropping May 11th. Hell yeah. If Ben remembers.

Hell yeah. Yeah, so feel free to sign up in time for that. He claims the audio is salvageable. It's more than salvageable. It's good. Ben did it. He fucking did it. He had the feather is salvageable. It's more than salvageable. It's good. Ben did it. He fucking did it.

He had the feather. He didn't even need it. Ben had the feather in him all along. That's the power of fashion, Ben. I had the holes in me the whole time. You had the holes in you. I had the dirt, the jeans. They're all there. And as always

Dumbo fucks He's a child No No I mean, yeah, I guess that's it