Blank Check with Griffin & David - Ed Wood with John Hodgman

Episode Date: February 3, 2019

John Hodgman [Judge John Hodgman podcast](https://www.maximumfun.org/shows/judge-john-hodgman) joins Griffin and David to discuss 1994's celebration of Hollywood's greatest outcast, Ed Wood. Was this Burton's finest film? What is the history of Bela Lugosi and Boris Karloff careers portraying monsters? Is 'octopus motor' the greatest two words put together? Together they examine the legacy of director Ed Wood, attending one of the Property Brother's weddings, crumb bums, and Space: 1999. [Vacationland: True Stories from Painful Beaches](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/557020/vacationland-by-john-hodgman/9780735224827/) is now available in paperback.

blank check with griffin and david blank check with griffin and david don't know what to say or to expect all you need to know is that the name of the show is blank check kathy i'm about to tell you something that I never told any girl on a first date. But I think it's important that you know, I like to wear women's clothes. I like to wear women's clothes, panties, brassier, sweaters, pumps. It's just something I do. And I can't believe I'm telling you this, but I really like you and I don't want it getting in the way down the road. Does this mean you don't like podcasting with girls?

No, I love podcasting with girls. Well, not today. That's my favorite dialogue exchange in the movie. No, I mean, it's good. I just Legosi, you know? You could have done Legosi. That's podcasting, motherfucker. Right, exactly. No one gives two fucks about podcasting.

Pull the strings, pull the podcast. I don't know pull yeah podcast no you know what podcast podcast

podcast beware beware I always like here's the thing I hate go ahead this is one of my

five favorite movies I'm just out with it I love this one this is top five for the all timer I love this movie I'm with you I love it too This is a top five for me all the time. I love this movie too. I'm with you. I love it too. This is a wonderful movie.

I feel like unfairly now, a lot of this film's legacy is Samuel Jackson is constantly shit talking the fact that Martin Landau beat him. It certainly was for a while. I think it's gone past that. He used to complain like he was up for Pulp Fiction.

And he used to complain like, Ed Wood, no for Pulp Fiction. Oh. And he used to complain, like, Ed Wood, no one even saw that thing. Like, come on. Like, he was... I gave one of the most iconic performances of all time. Who even talks about Martin Lando and Ed Wood? It's like, I talk about it literally every day of my life. It's the performance, like,

that you could imagine beating almost anyone. And the hard thing about it is, Samuel L. Jackson's never going to get another swing. No. At an award. Probably not. Probably, you know, how many... You never know. How many more movies did he have ahead of him at that point? bad it is, Samuel L. Jackson's never going to get another swing at an award. Probably not. How many more movies did he have ahead of him at that point?

He gets so few bites of the apple. I know, right? Exactly. Martin Landau was only 95 years old. Here are two crazy facts. One, Martin Landau lived another 20 years after the flurry. He was nuts. He did lie. He lived to like 99.

Oh, really? He made it a long time. No, he lived to like 99 oh really he he made it a long he lived to 89 really yeah he looked about 90 he was an old man he was 35 and edward he was yeah he was sort of martin landa much like bella lugosi is a cartoon eastern european that you kind of can't believe was a real person martin landa was kind of a cartoon old guy yes like right like i only think of him as an old guy you see pictures of him you know you see him in mission impossible right space 1999 space 1999 you're like oh right he was that's my default lando yeah interesting space 1999 okay fair enough i was thinking i would think more of mission impossible who's yours crimes and misdemeanors no it's ed Wood Ed Wood for me it's default probably crimes and misdemeanors

no but see he disappears into this role you like leading Lando though that's why you like SpaceX and Madden he doesn't look like Martin Lando in this movie well that's it

this movie it wins two Oscars it wins Lando and the makeup which is one of the least showy and most effective makeup jobs in film history it's crazy

it's incredible how well they transform without it looking like a Sacha Baron Cohen character where it's like his face doesn't move. He looks like he's made of rubber. And they have dramatically different faces. Yeah, Martin Lando has such a very distinctive face.

And Bela Lugosi has a very distinctive face. And there's a thing on the— He did such a good job that he can watch a movie with the real Bela Lugosi. They intercut the real footage. And you're like, yeah, it's Bela Lugosi. Well, also, he footage. And you're like yeah it's Bela Lugosi. Well also he was supposed to be a withered shell of

himself. Yeah he's run down. But it looks like that's a withered shell of that real guy there. On the DVD on the special features they have like a whole thing

with Rick Baker and he was like you know I love Lugosi. Sure. I was like really honored that Tim reached out to me and like offered me this

thing and I said like this is impossible. These are fundamentally different faces. Lando has this very long face. He's got a long sort of Frankenstein-y shape to his face. With a very pronounced upper lip. It got long because he was in that low-gravity environment for so long. Space 1999.

You're going to hijack this and just party like it's Space 1999. I don't know if I've ever seen that much space in 1999. I'm not a lot was made. Right. And I'm pretty sure I saw all of it, but not what was the concept? It was like the runoff battle. It was well before battle.

Oh really? Yeah. It was Jerry Anderson. It was crazy. It was fully live action. Jerry. And it was Thunderbirds. Only Barbara Bain was a marionette.

Weirdly. She's like, I'll take the press photos, but I'll be a marionette weirdly she's like I'll take the press photos but I'll be a marionette in the show is it like a space station show oh here's the premise okay

space station moon base alpha on the moon and then there's a bad explosion the moon gets kicked out of orbit oh dear

and it's traveling through the cosmos but it's still we're still circling the moon no earth is left behind okay it's not very're still circling the moon no earth is left behind okay it's not very scientific because their whole premise is how are we gonna get the moon back to earth when

they should have figured out oh earth is finished now that's it we gotta go we're done you know the story about when jerry anderson pitched landau space 1999 right no i do not know it he asked landau to come visit him on the thunderbird set and he was like it's going to be like this. It's a show. You'll be the leading man voicing it but it's going to be all puppets. And Lando said pull the strings and I'm in. Hello everybody. My name is Griffin Newman. Pull the strings.

There you go. Pull the strings. Pull the strings. What's your name? Oh David Sims. I'm sorry. Splank check with Griffin. I was so horrified by your joke that I was like trying to reset it. A foolishly scary joke. This podcast is about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their career and are given a series of

blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Certainly. Like Ed Wood. Yes. Tim Burton at this point is firmly in this sort of one for me, one for them mode. But all his ones for me were also very expensive and done on a major studio level. Sure, sure.

And this was the first one where he really had to fight to make a movie that seemed aggressively uncommercial. Right, and was. Right. But he was such a big, populous studio filmmaker, he had somehow made these very esoteric interests of his into very mainstream things. Right.

You're saying like Edward Scissorhands, no one's going to say like, oh, that's a surefire box office success. And then it was. Right. Right. So this, I guess he could be like, well, no one thought Edward Scissorhands would work. This will work. Yes. Yeah.

People will go to see Edward. But like no one wanted to make this fucking movie. No. And then it did poorly. But it's my favorite film of his. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. It's also my favorite film of his. That's the thing that surprised,

I didn't realize it was a bomb. It was a huge bomb. Huge bomb. Until, because I was a grown up when this movie came out. Yeah, I'm a very old man.

Where did you see it? By the way, my name's John Hodgman. Oh, John Hodgman's here. Our guest, John Hodgman. Judge John Hodgman,

the honorable sitting there. Host of the Judge John Hodgman podcast, co-star of The Tick Season 2. Oh my God. With Griffin Newman. You're like the big new character in Season 2. Wait, when is this posting? Now I'm going to check.

Sometime in 2019. February, March? Early February. February the 3rd. Does it have a premiere date? No. No, I've heard. Conflicting rumors.

You know what's good? Quarter one, 219. When you hear conflicting thing. I love it. I'm not stressed at all. I haven't been losing sleep for months. Now, now, now, you get your sleep. Yeah.

I worry about you. I'm trying. You have to understand, it's hard for them to press the button to put the thing on the stream. It's so tough. It takes a while for them to get to the room, the button room. Yes, yes. And to be fair, they're on a very rushed post-production schedule of nine months. We finished filming season two, I think, in 1984?

That's right. Yeah. It wasn't. No, it wasn't. When it comes out, it'll be a while. But you're phenomenal on the show. Well, you're an incredible actor. Well, come on.

You're an incredible actor. As I said on set, apparently. You said to me, I want you to know. I don't remember this line. You said, I think you're a very good actor. And I said, oh, come on. And you said, no, I mean it. And I know about acting because I've seen Murder on the Orient Express.

That was your line? Was that really my line? I thought you were making a joke about it. No, no, no. You said, I just watched it on a plane, so I know about acting. That was a very important movie-going experience for me, watching Murder on the Orient Express on a plane. Had you just watched... Right, you were on OCA. You had literally

just ingested the Orient Express. I opened my mouth. You'd taken the ride. Why isn't there a ride? You'd boarded the train. Why isn't there a theme park? Universal should open a whole Poirot land sure

are they are they doing a Marpleverse or you know like a Christyverse they're doing a Poirot follow up they're doing Death on the Nile yes

you could get in that you should be in that John you don't know can you imagine like we're in Cairo or something and it's like you've got a fan

sir you're holding him running after him with a tele and it's like you've got a fan. You're holding him, running after him with a telegram. You know, you're wearing like a khaki suit. Thank you very much. I'm a little old to play a bellhop. Not a bellhop. I'm saying like his Sala or something.

It would be a sad bellhop. I'm saying like a Peter Ustinov type. Well, I guess Ustinov played Poirot. And that was, he was my Poirot. Right. Sure. But I'm thinking like. Much like Space 1999 was your Landau. Yes. That was my Landau. And Ustinov was your Poirot and that was he was my Poirot right sure but I'm thinking much like Space 1999 was your Landau yes

that was my Landau and Yusuf was your Poirot but I remember I remember that somehow I did not manage to see Black Panther

when it came out that week but I did manage to see Murder on the Orient Express on an airplane and I realized for a straight

white only child from Brookline massachusetts that's your black that was my black that was your black panther yeah and it was the only experience was like finally someone sees me right and it was received as such by the culture as a massive moment for representation in american media yeah well sorry i i don't i don't want to say sidetrack sure but that was a sidetrack no i don I'm not saying a bellhop, but I feel like his Sala. You know? Uh-huh.

I want you to be playing the Josh Gad role in this movie. I think we've got to plus it up. You should be like the mayor or the local commissioner. Mayor of the Nile. They go to an office or a palace or something and you're sitting there behind a desk I do a lot of desk work

yeah you're flapping a fan in streaming media film and television yeah I'm mostly known for my desk work I think desk work is good

also check out check out my incredible back of the head acting in in the Nick season 2 oh yeah yeah incredible incredible your big thing no spoilers but your big thing in the Nick season two. Oh, yeah? Yeah, incredible, incredible.

Your big thing, and no spoilers, but your big thing in Tick season two, you kind of redefined clipboard acting. Oh, you noticed? This man holds the shit out of a clipboard in Tick season two. It's actually a tablet that kept... Oh, right. It was like a high-tech clipboard that kept freezing up.

It would go to the whole screen or something. Anyway, we had a great time working together. I became a true blankie checkhead during that time. And David, I met you at a wedding. Yeah, that's true. You were the DJ. I was the DJ. You did a great job.

Thank you very much. Although the greatest moment was the bride freaking out at you when you were moving on from one song so soon that I thought that was very funny. Because you were doing a very professional job. You were like, you know, fading in and out of things. And you were, you know, it was like...

I was trying to keep it moving. Yeah, exactly. And then, but then there was one song that I guess the bride... Yeah, well, I guess it's her special day. Right. It was like, no, no, no. It was like, well, we must finish this one.

And you were very, you were a good deal. You're like, oh, of course. You know, I was like, you, we must finish this one. And you were a good dealer. You were like, oh, of course. I was like, you know what? Fine. I put it on repeat over and over, and I walked away. Fine. Fine. You threw your headphones to the ground.

Jesus. Yeah. Okay, Landau. Oh, see, this is what I was saying. I was an elderly man. Sure. I mean, I was a grown man then. When this came out.

Prior to my life. 1994. Yeah. 23 years old. I remember reading about it. We're talking. I remember reading about how much. You remember reading about me going to see the movie?

Yeah, that you were just killing it prior to your life. September 30th. Was this a good month for you? September 1994? 1994. Yeah, I had moved. I just moved to New York. There you go.

New York City in January of that year. All right. And now I'm trying to remember. Maybe I saw it at the Chelsea Theater. I was going to say, yeah. Did you see it in a theater? What's now the Sinopolis? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That one on. Which used to be United Artists, I believe. Sure. I don't. Yeah. I don't. The 23rd. 23rd Street.

Yes. Okay. I think that that's probably, that's where I've seen a lot of movies. There were a bunch of movie theaters up on the Upper Upper West Side where I lived. I was 105th Street and Broadway, so there were a couple of movie theaters. Oh, the 84th and Broadway Lowe's, of course. But there was a New Yorker Theater, but that closed when I was a kid. Right, right.

Because I used to live up there. Yeah. I don't know. There were others. The only place you lived as a kid. That's right. We're not talking about where you lived as a kid. We lived in New York, and that's the end of the story, and we can move on. Lived used to live up there. Yeah. I don't know. There were others. The only place you lived as a kid. That's right. We're not talking about where you lived as a kid. We lived in New York, and that's the end of the story, and we can move on.

We lived in New York? Yeah. That must have been amazing to spend your whole childhood in New York City. The whole time. The entirety of it. Classic downtown Griffey Nams. No, Brookline, Massachusetts. This is the big time.

It was the big time. It's true. You must have really seen a different way of life. So you see the movie. I'm not rising to this bait. I loved it. You're a 99 head. Landau is back.

But you know, I, I, I'm a, at this point in my life, I'm a huge Tim Burton fan and supporter. Right.

And I would say, I guess I am now. Sure. He's not the filmmaker that he was. But that was a miracle, right? In the day, right, he'd done the Batmans

and Edward Scissorhands and this is an exciting new... Right. And Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. Pee-Wee, of course. And so... And Beetlejuice. And this was like this movie seemed like such a step forward in how he was going to direct movies. It felt like a big

evolution. And then I guess he decided that was wrong. Well, it's also his first movie about real people. Like, no offense to Pee Wee or Beetlejuice or whatever, but these are humans who have regular needs and desires. And he did a good job with humans! He did a great job! It's his first grown-up movie.

And he brings aboard Johnny Depp. It's as close as Johnny Depp has ever gotten to playing a human. I think it's Depp's best performance. Oh, I do too. Is that even... I mean, I guess he's Depp's best performance. Oh, I do too. Is that even... I mean, I guess he's given a lot of performances. This is my favorite Depp. This is his reel in the pocket a couple of years.

Because Donnie Brasco is probably his best... He's so good in Donnie Brasco. Like serious movie, like fully serious performance. That's him like going for it, being like, pay attention to me. I am a serious actor. I'm walking here. He was walking. He's walking all over donnie brasco

donnie brasco's sitting in a chair most of the time he's doing some chair work that's a lot of pacino yeah um but but this is like this feels like a performance that only this one actor at this one period of time before he became a wine vampire uh you know could have given and europe The Death Star and European rock star. European rock star. General all around creep. Yeah. But yeah,

this performance feels like, I mean, I think this is when he sort of becomes like for a certain group of people, the guy.

Like this is kind of the weirdest, most interesting leading man. He's got Dead Man the next year too. He's so good in the 90s. He's like really in this run of good stuff. He has a very cool run in the 90s. Because Gilbert Gra Deadman the next year too. He's so good in the 90s. He's really in this run.

He has a very cool run in the 90s. Because Gilbert Grape is the year before. And yeah, the next year is Deadman and Don Juan DeMarco, which is a nice little movie. I don't like this at all. Now that I'm seeing you rattle this stuff off. And he's looking at a computer.

Otherwise it's going to be a lot of like, man, what did he do? You know, come on. When I'm making dinner, listening to have you in my head. You think it's off the dome. I feel like it's totally off the dome. Well, it's not. It's off the pad. It's not all off the pad.

He's roasting me now. Now I feel roasted. No, that's good. I'm glad to know that you're human. I'm really, really human. I mean, it really, yeah. Okay. It makes me feel more comfortable

if you prick me so i see this movie yeah and it's and it's a it's an amazing film a wonderful huge a huge step forward for him a really enjoyable film gets a huge amount of critical attention yes i grew up in the 90s believing this movie did good. I did not know until yesterday that it did bad. It did badly. It did poorly. It was like critically acclaimed across the board. Pretty much universal acclaim. It won Oscars,

which any studio loves to win an Oscar. It won two Oscars in a very competitive year. I mean, 94, that was the Forrest Gump, Quiz Show,

Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption. Yeah, there's a world, right, where, you know, I guess a less crowded year

would have maybe gotten some more nominations and all that. Samuel L. Jackson was world, right, where, you know, I guess a less crowded year would have maybe gotten some more nominations and all that. Samuel L. Jackson was robbed that year, I believe. And larceny. His big thing was like, look, I gave this performance

that was so iconic and they gave it to Lando as a Lifetime Achievement Award. I think you watched this. This is not a Lifetime Achievement performance. No. This isn't just a guy

showing up in, like, this isn't Don Ameche in Cocoon. No. Where you're like, oh, he's charming. Right. This is like such a fucking real deal performance huge huge career and a really tricky performance well also the thing was samuel jackson is a quasi lead anyway agreed and they ran him in supporting because they were running travolta as the lead but they have their screen

time right so they were they were kind of just like splitting the difference and like that that may have done him in i don't know like tom hanks was probably always going to win best actor this is why i always said on set how many times did i say this awards bullshit literally you said during yes you can curse you said it during every take yeah which we lost a lot of good footage so sometimes i try to be polite and just ruin my own takes. Yes. No, you would often do it during our lines. You would step over our lines to say awards bullshit.

Quick word, awards are bullshit. Yes, right. Don't let this, Peter Serafin was, don't let awards get into your head. They're bullshit. Well, you know, I got irritated, but he was surprisingly fine with it because he's so comfortable in that costume. He was like, please eat up as much time as you want. I can go all day. Work talk.

And we met at a wedding, David. We did meet at a wedding. That's true. Of two blank check guests. It was a blank check wedding. We won't say who. It's a total mystery, I guess. Let's do some cross calculation

and figure out which two blank check guests are now married. If you're listening now and you've figured it out, go to your... If you have your grid of blank check guests

and you've been drawing all the connections, you should be able to figure this out. Send in your guests. The first top three guesses will get an Audioboom mug

that you can share. And a decoder ring. Yes. We're going to start making decoder ring. Yes. Right. We're going to start making decoder rings. So what happened when this movie didn't do good? One Oscar, two Oscars. But I mean, when it became a commercial failure,

what happened with Tim Burton after that? Burton is already working on his next project, which he sees as like a sister to this movie, Mars Attacks. Mars Attacks. And I guess they're thinking like, oh, well, that'll play. That was the thing. Mars Attacks I think they viewed as an obvious home run. They were like, he's going to make a big disaster film. And he was like, I just got off of making Ed Wood.

I want to make a modern version of that sort of type of sci-fi movie. Right, right, right, right. And then that was so expensive and bombed harder in relation to its budget. Sure. And then I think he its budget. And is not critically appreciated. No, it wasn't at the time. I think now it's started to build more ahead of steam. Well, if you listen to Paul F. Tompkins, it's a modern masterpiece. Well, we'll never listen to him, especially

not on the subject of Mars attacks. He's not welcome here. No, he's not welcomed here. Much like you were not welcomed here. But I think that's when he really starts to get scared. Okay. And it is a thing where I think this is the origin

of his more craven like where it starts to come do the Tim Burton take on things because then the run is Sleepy Hollow Planet of the Apes Charlie and the Chocolate Factory

now it's like do a Tim Burton take on a thing that everyone already knows. That's when it all feels like you're just putting on a thick paint of gothic emo gloss

on other stories. You're throwing his aesthetic sensibilities onto things we already knows. That's when it all feels like you're just putting on a thick paint of gothic emo gloss. Yes. Right. On other stories. You're throwing his aesthetic sensibilities onto things we already know. And there was the initial excitement of like, oh, I'd love to see a Tim Burton, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Yeah. It became like,

oh God, we're going to have to see a Tim Burton, like Alice in Wonderland. You know, it became just sort of resigned. Right. Oh, here we go. Helena Bonham Carter's going to be in it, you know. At some point or another, someone's going to wear red and white stockings.

Right. But there's this thing. I feel like I talk about this with people all the time where they say, like, so why does that actor, like, still do all these shitty movies? Or, like, why does that director make those choices? Like, people will ask me. Like, genuinely, I don't understand why Bruce Willis is doing this, you know? Right. And my answer is always, I think if you're ever, ever like at the very top, it gets scary to lose it.

Yeah. Even if you're a guy like Tim Burton, who I don't think starting out had delusions of becoming one of the most powerful filmmakers in Hollywood. No, he was an animator. Right. He expected to be anonymous, basically. Right. And then when he was doing live action. A distinct visual style.

Right. It was like Disney was like, we don't know what to do with this guy. Like give him somebody to make Frankenweenie or whatever. Right. And then his movies kept on like growing and growing. And then he made this like blockbuster that redefined like the studio system. Like Batman changes everything. And then like the blank checks he'd get from Batman.

That was the unfinished sequel to Batman. Batman changes everything. Batman changes everything. Right. Yeah. That was going to be his third after Batman Returns. He's changing pension systems,

plumbing, he's changing the whole city of Gotham. Batman just deals with legislators. He rolls up his bat sleeves. It's time for someone to tax reform. Those are hard. He rolls them up and they puncture. Let's go

but I think then it's scary to like lose that I'm the comptroller Gotham deserves yes he was a maverick he came in he was an outsider that Gotham needed yeah but I think that kind of like fucks things up because up until this point he's like

following his own bliss and even when he's making a Batman movie he's like I'm doing the Batman that no one else would think to make and then this except for Frank Miller maybe but then even like the whole visual sensibility and everything but then

I think it starts to become like fuck what do people want out of a Tim Burton movie you know and I think perhaps if like Mars Attacks had done really well he would have felt more comfortable being like

every other movie I'll do a smaller character. That was when we talked about which movie to see I was like Edward with a bullet. Yeah. I was just like

that's the one I want to talk about even though there are people who are much more qualified to talk about this movie and you should have you should have gotten Dana Gould in here immediately,

but that's another story. Oh, please. And Dana's not welcome here. Yeah. He's not welcome here. Of course not. And he'll never be here.

He'll never be here. But, um, uh, but because that was the one where I felt like, oh, that's the last. And I'd forgotten about Mars attacks came after.

Cause I saw that movie and I immediately forgot it. Cause I did not care for it. Have you, have you never seen it since? Okay. Well, I think you'd love it today. Right.

Well, maybe so. Yeah. But I was like, oh, that was the last time he was, like, I feel that Tim Burton was really pushing a Burton envelope and making a movie and trying. I would argue Mars Attacks

is the last one of those. Yeah, I mean, right. And then I think the rest of them start to become. Sleepy Hollow a little bit. By the way, Tim Burton, I know you're listening. I would love to work

with you on any project. That's not what I'm saying. We'd both love to work with him. But there was a time when you were a filmmaker and then there was a time when you became

a fairly consistent interior decorator of movies, I feel like. My friend Louis always had this theory that was like, I think he just

kind of got happy. Yeah. Like, I think he stopped feeling tortured and he found some complacency within himself and he seems fairly well adjusted now and I think he stopped feeling tortured and he found some complacency within himself and he seems fairly well adjusted now and i think he starts making these decisions of like

what should i be making now and it's also as opposed to like what what is the song of my heart it happens to some directors the budget creep thing where it's like oh i can't imagine making a small movie again i'm so used to the whole industry that you know around it's like i'd have to make like a little thing. It's a pain. It must be so hard to say no if they're like, hey.

If they're like, come make Dumbo. Here is so much money. We will provide every resource you need. We will provide any actor you want. Right, exactly.

All it really needs is there does have to be an elephant in it with big ears. But apart from that, do what you want. It's Dumbo. It's a 50-minute movie.

Mess with it however you like. That must be so hard to turn down. And then I think the times that he's tried to... I mean, this is the first thing. There is a left turn, I forgot, in a later part of his career. In the 2000s, I think he tries to make three turns, and they all underperform in relation to the movies before and after them. He takes three left turns and winds up at the same spot.

Right, right. So it's like, if you're Tim Burton, and it's like, here on one end is like Sweeney Todd, then Alice in Wonderland, and then Big Eyes. Right. And maybe I'm forgetting one in between, but it's like, well, all the encouragement seems to be coming from the fact that Alice in Wonderland made a billion dollars worldwide.

Right. Why would I go back to making these other two movies that people were confused by? But he makes Big Eyes and his heart doesn't seem in my opinion. We'll talk about Big Eyes. I've not seen Big Eyes, but it was written by these guys. It was the closest I think he's come to doing another

Ed Wood. It's nowhere near as good as Ed Wood. It's a film I really like. It lacks the visual panache of Ed Wood, which is sort of disappointing. God, this movie looks gorgeous. This movie just looks insane. It's very, very fun to watch. And unlike any other Tim Burton movie. No, certainly.

And I also watch it and I go like, how did he pull this off? His aesthetic idea for this movie is make it look like a shitty movie, but beautiful. Right. Like it's like a beautifully executed version of a really marginal B picture.

Yeah. And when he's, when, when Bella Lugosi, spoiler, uh, commits himself for, uh,

treatment for drug addiction. Major spoiler. Yeah. And, and Ed Wood is talking to the doctor and there's this, I just, I, there's a scene in a hospital hallway that truly looks like they're standing in front of a scrim.

Like it is the cheapest looking shirt. The sets are very, like, I mean, that's the thing where I just go, like, how the fuck did he pull this off? Because you have the scenes where he's shooting his movies. Right. Yeah. And the joke is that the sets of the Ed Wood films are terrible. But you're also in, like, an airplane hangar. Right.

You know. But then, like, the airplane hangar that the set is built in is also a set yes and he makes that set look artificial there are some shots like there's that the shots uh like the wrestling ring right where you're it's a full crowd that he has like summoned to do this is like cgi right this is the early 90s and the um what do you call it the the premieres yeah like especially that one where they open and everyone is throwing popcorn at each other and yeah you know it looks like expensive it looks it looks beautiful yeah that batman changes everything money right yes batman did change everything they paid him so much to not make that movie 18 million dollars was the budget of this film yeah

so it was set up at warner brothers which was his main home studio at that point other than edward scissorhands everything he had done had been at Warner's at that point. And it's usually he works with them a lot to this day, right? Now he goes between Warner's and Disney.

I feel like those are the two he flips between. But at that time he was almost exclusively a Warner's boy and he sets it up there and he's very adamant about the fact

that he wants it to be black and white and everyone's like He's a Warner bro. He's a Warner bra. Warner bra. Right. He's rolling with the bros

right and uh everyone's like bro you think tim burton oh yeah he's a warner bro yeah yeah god um everyone is like this black and white idea is death making a movie about a bad movie is a bad idea sure and johnny depp is like like like Edward Scissorhands is his only big box office success at that point as a leading man. Well, I mean, I would look at his filmography,

but I'm afraid Hodgman's going to roast me. No, I'm not roasting. Come on, David. No, I'm kidding. Oh my goodness. Gilbert, well, after Edward Scissorhands,

he'd only made two movies. Gilbert Grape, which was not a big hit. Did all right, I guess. He made 10 million. Oh, really? Geez, yeah. And Benny and June

which you know didn't like the world on fire but made a little money too he's a guy at that point in time it solidified his silent comedy his silent comedy impersonation chops he's still only a few years removed from like 21 Jump Street

this is when he's starting to become the thinking man's heartthrob. Right. Because it's like, oh, but he's weird. He looks like Buster Keaton and shit. He does.

Like he's very handsome, but he doesn't want to do that cookie cutter shit. You know? Yeah, that was, I feel like that rep, speaking as someone who was a full-blown adult

when this movie came out, that rep was locked in. Everyone was buying it. Like we were discerning. We get Johnny Depp. Yeah. The public doesn't. Yeah. You know? And they were We get Johnny Depp. Yeah. The public doesn't. Yeah.

You know? And they were like, Johnny Depp's a leading man, but he's not big enough to, like, validate your vision of making a $20 million black and white film about a bad director. Right. And a bad director that really not everyone had heard of in the way that they had. I mean, in large part because of this movie, a lot of people have heard of it. Yes. But it was still- Mystery Science Theater 3000, where is that?

That is not there yet. That doesn't exist yet. Because that's the thing. I feel like once that's kicked up, then you have this sort of all of that. I discovered a distressing thing, which was that according to the Wikipedia, see, I use the internet too, but I'm not an incredible. Interesting, I'm not the only one. No, I'm not a super mind.

I'm just a guy with the internet like everybody else. I think he was a bit of a super mind. I saw the internet. But according to Wikipedia, Planet 9 from Outer Space started getting cult following when it was named as the worst movie of all time. Yes. In this book called The Golden Turkeys or some such by the Medved brothers. Oh, crazy. Michael Medved obviously was a film reviewer before he became what he is now, which is a right-wing radio talk show host and kind of a monster.

But I think that book was kind of the beginning of like— That was in 1980. Yes. A bad art culture. In 1980, yes. A bad art culture. Like it was the beginning of like the 90s, especially with Mystery Science Theater and books like that that were starting to get written of like, actually sometimes these shitty movies are like fun. Right.

And people obsessing over bad works. That was the era. The 80s were the era of like the Psychotronic Film Guide and Research Magazine that would cover all these weird. This is the era of my friend Nick McCarthy bringing us all over to his house to stay up all night to watch bad movies on VHS. And then in the nineties, you know, this movie comes out and then the mystery science theater, three thousand,

MST three K comes out and starts codifying this subculture and bringing out into a larger, the idea of cult things starts to become mainstream. But in 1994, that was not cold. It's still cult. It's like literally, it's like an inside whisper network. Certainly no studio is going to be fired up about the idea that you're

going to do a Plan 9 from Outer Space movie. No, most of them wouldn't even know what it was. Right. So, Warner Brothers puts the film in turnaround. Griffin, you're wrong. It's not Warner Brothers. Was it Sony? It's Columbia. Fuck, it was Columbia. I think Warner Brothers turned it the film in turnaround. Griffin, you're wrong. It's not Warner Brothers. Was it Sony?

It's Columbia. Fuck, it was Columbia. I think Warner Brothers turned it down maybe. Maybe. It's because Alexander and Karaszewski who had written Problem Child. Right. And Problem Child 2, I believe. I think you're right.

I think they thought that was like an albatross around their neck. Right. We got to get out of this. Why would they feel that way? Two modern classics. Yes, right. Well, because the script was so good that it put them in a washing machine. Why would they feel that way? Two modern classics. Well, because the script was so good that it put them in a washing machine. The script itself.

I have not seen either of the Problem Children. The video box is John Ritter in a washing machine. How come the sequel to Problem Child wasn't Problem Children? It also wasn't Problem Child, comma, two. I think the sequel literally is about a second Problem child. I think it is. Like it's now there's a girl too.

Right. There used to be just. Yeah, no, it should be called Problem Children. Yeah. Yeah. Problem Kids. But we're applying our branding savvy here in the year 2018 backwards in time. Sure, hindsight's 2020.

Because we look back and we're like, of course, a meta film about Ed Wood, that's hilarious. Right, right. But the 90s barely existed at the time when meta didn't exist in that way. Also, if you were caught up in the hurricane of like Problem Child fever, you could barely think clearly.

I mean, the tagline. This PC culture is getting out of hand. That's what I said. It's one of those classic two tagline posters. Uh-huh. So, top of the poster,

this summer, Junior has a brand new friend. Okay. Problem Child 2. Right? There's two of them, right? But below Junior has a brand new friend. Okay. Problem child two. There's two of them, right? But below, he's bad, she's worse. Two taglines does not bode well. Especially when both of them are half a tagline, really.

You know what I mean? It's like they couldn't really settle. They were like, well, let's just let them go first. So that was the premise was they had a girl? They probably put them both on there. They added a girl and they put Ritter in the washing machine. And they probably put both taglines in so that some mid-level executive wouldn't get mad. Right. Right, right.

And it was like, he's bad, she's worse was Bob's idea. And he's really going to not like it if we don't put that in there somewhere. Yeah, right. I think that was the idea, though, was like they had written this thing that then became really successful, but was sort of seen as like a piece of shit and a joke. Right. So they have this script they believe in. Because I'm sure they're getting like a thousand offers to make shitty family comedies and they're like this isn't really what we want to get stuck doing.

So they set this script up with Burton to produce with Michael Lehman to direct. Michael Lehman to direct. Which is weird. And Michael Lehman had to go make Airheads. That's why he couldn't do it. He had to make Airheads. I'm sure it made sense to him at the time. I mean Airheads is weird. And Michael Lehman had to go make Airheads. That's why he couldn't do it. He had to make Airheads. Well, you know, I'm sure it made sense to him at the time. I mean, Airheads is alright.

Have you ever worked with Lehman? I have not. Have you? He does a lot of TV. Terrific guy. Really? Yeah. I worked with him on Bored to Death a couple of times. I think of him as the truth about cats and dogs. I have seen that movie at least twice. He's really smart, really funny. He will talk to you about Hudson Hawk all day long. Right. He made Hudson Hawk all day long Hudson Hawk

yeah which is an incredibly I mean that that is not a great that's not a successful film sure no

but it's financially but it's fascinating even Michael Lehman if you're listening I think he would you would acknowledge that it did not work the way it was supposed to

but it had a sense of humor that was a little bit mind-breaking right but it was meta it was meta at a time when meta wasn't in part of the But it had a sense of humor that was a little bit mind-breaking. Right. It was meta at a time when meta wasn't part of the vocabulary. Right. But now I understand why he was like, maybe I should just go make Airheads. Maybe after Hudson Hawk flopped, he's like, maybe I shouldn't make the weird homage to the bad director that's a good movie.

Maybe I should just make the idiots you know hold up a radio store well and i think that was probably an idea of like you make a down the middle comedy like it's a bad film it's a bad director and you make a comedy about a guy who's inept and tim burton latches onto this idea of making the movie like the most considerate positive biopic ever yes i mean that and if that if that's i mean again, you feel that he is bringing that. That's the thing with this movie is tone management is like the name of the game. He's walking such a fine line where you think about most biopics, especially like of artists,

right? And it's like either like, here's an inspiring story of someone who like broke through a glass ceiling. Which usually sucks. Changed history and they like deify them too much, right? They stop being human. Or it's the like, here's an artist you love

and here are their demons. Here's the shit you didn't know. Right. And this is a story about a man who thinks he's in a biopic about how he changed Hollywood. Right. And he gives him the movie

the guy thinks he's in. Yes. And the exploration of his character or the reveal of his character as a fundamentally decent Yes. And the exploration of his character or the reveal of his character as a fundamentally decent, eccentric, self-deluded, but not completely self-deluded. There are times when he's like, I don't think I got it. Right. And Sarah Jessica Parker has to talk him into it. But that's so beautiful.

And I have to say that there are a couple of times in this movie where you see a glimpse of what it might have been otherwise like there are moments particularly in the montage when he's shooting Plan 9 from outer space and everything's going wrong

and he loves it all and the movie is just going and the movie is basically saying look at these terrible sets right this is terrible right

the guy scratching his head with the gun right and those are just a few moments where you have to show them. Obviously it's part of it. He's kind of earned it at that point where you can have a couple laughs. But it would have easily been all of that.

Top to bottom. A hundred percent. Yeah. But I think, you know, Burton talks a lot about how he was sort of just this, like this movie omnivore growing up. Like he is a byproduct of the first generation to have like television and

movies playing constantly. And especially these like shittyvies that were just sold in the packages. And he just ate everything up and I think was just intoxicated by movies. Right. Like, he loves the idea of the range of what a movie can represent. I'm in pictures. Right. And he's, like, applying that to this guy who, like, Burgess often said, like, I'm surprised that any of my movies work. So am I. Right. He's like, I'm surprised that any of my movies work. I think I don't know.

So am I. Right. He's like, I don't know how to judge a good script. Like on paper, these things feel like they're too like specific to connect with people at large. And I think he feels like I'm a lucky version of Ed Wood.

Like I'm an Ed Wood that somehow is connecting with people. Right. But my motivations are no different than what he's doing. I have my little family of weirdos. I like working with the same people. Yeah. I'm following my own bliss. And it's a vision that a lot of people would say no i don't think this is a good idea these are very much fetish objects they're my own psychology spilled out on screen you know you just need vincent d'onofrio with

maurice lamarche's voice to tell you follow your vision and he did it right and he's like there but for like the grace of god go i i remember right i remember sitting in my kitchen in brookline massachusetts with my print edition of the boston globe and i read the casting for the batman movie that was going to come out and it was michael keaton yeah and i i remember setting the paper down and saying to the air it can't be done right even this is too weird and you're and you're a fan of peewee's big adventure at that point you go this is a train wreck i was i was you're a fan of Pee-wee's Big Adventure at that point. You go, this is a train wreck. I was a huge fan of Beetlejuice and Michael Keaton. And I was like, this is not, he's not Batman.

I mean, everyone felt the same way. Yeah. Until about halfway through the movie, I would say. And then I became convinced. Right. And then he's like, cool. It takes place in like a weird retrofuturistic version of the 1930s. It looks like a German expressionist horror movie

I'm doing an homage to both that and the 60s Adam West's Batman but it's neither it's also serious they're making me use 8 Prince songs which like should totally bump up against all his shit but no one could have been more pre-sold for any

version of Tim Burton's Batman and even i had skepticism right and took some winning over and so it is incredible that these movies connected and then when you heard about a guy with scissor hands you were like gosh i have regular scissors you can't pick a damn thing up yeah that seems to me to be too much of a problem right too many that's what you want fingers yeah i mean look even if the guy is is lacking hands and needs prosthetic scissors is the worst choice yes do you know what i mean you'd be better off with chopstick hands oh much better yeah you know what i mean yeah um or luke skywalker hands i mean if

he can get a what a rub it had a robot hand i only got one rub it hand um i do feel like uh you know his thing he said at the time when people were like, how did you know that Michael Keaton could play Batman? Especially looking at the work he had done up until that point. How from collaborating with him on Beale, just do you see he was right for that part? And he said, I just I saw it was all in his eyes. And I knew that character was so much about because of the costume, the eyes. And I saw he had that in him. Yeah.

And in retrospect, you're like, God, look how smart he looks that he called that. But on its face, that doesn't sound any different than Ed Wood seeing the chiropractor and being like, you have the same eyes

as Bela Lugosi. That is also why it's fascinating that Tim Burton tried to make a Superman movie with Nicolas Cage. Right. Which also,

on the face of it, seems ludicrous. And then, of course, we never saw it. So in our heads, it will always just be ludicrous. And Hulk Hogan was going to play Brainiac and Chris Rock was... Who wasicrous. And Hulk Hogan was going to play Brainiac.

And Chris Rock was going to play Brainiac. Chris Rock was going to play Jimmy Olsen. Like, it was going to be insane. And it was just like, I guess if they let me make this, I'll follow my bliss on this. Right. And to be fair, if it happened, it would have been ludicrous. That didn't necessarily mean it wouldn't work. No, that's the thing.

At some point, it stops. But so many of his movies are kind of ludicrous. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. And yet they work. Like Edward. Yeah.

Lovely Edward. Anyway, no, it was a Columbia movie. Okay. He wants to shoot it in black and white. Because they had it set up through Lehman and... Yeah, Columbia had a first look. Problem child was Columbia. And that's...

Sure, possibly. And... So Burton's putting his name to it. I'll direct too because Michael Lehman's going off to do Airhead. But it's got to be black and white. It only makes sense it's black and white. It is hard to imagine this film in color.

And they're like no no no no. Like absolutely not. Then there's a bidding war. Because he's still so hot at this point. Exactly. Everyone wants it. Yeah. But Disney takes it. They say,

here's $18 million. We figure you'll do fine. We won't bother you again. Right. Disney still has Touchstone at this point. They weren't like, well, I'll change it. They were just like,

you're Tim Burton. I'm sure you'll be fine. Here's your money. Go make your movie. I think this is 95, right? This is 94. So is this the same no

Nightmare Before Christmas comes out the year before yeah but they're deep in that Disney's clearly trying to like get back in the Burton business I mean the movie is made

in 93 the Henry Selick film A Nightmare Before Christmas yes the film Tim Burton's A Nightmare Before Christmas directed by Henry Selick right

I think they want him back in their fold I mean they eventually get him back you know but I think for them it's also an investment of like, let's do Tim Burton a favor, so maybe he'll want to come here

and do some more big family movies for Disney. I feel like they must have viewed it as something of a write-off. And maybe it works and maybe it doesn't, but maybe you get his next movie. Who made Mars Attacks? Warner Brothers. He goes back to Warner Brothers.

And then after that, he starts to become really a free agent. Then he's like flipping all around the place. Right. Sleepy Hollow is who? Paramount. Planet of the Apes is Fox. Then it becomes about who owns the property because it becomes him remaking properties. Right. Warner's has

Trolling the Chocolate Factory. Alice is Disney, right? Alice is Disney. He's a franchise flipper. Exactly. He goes in franchise flipper. Exactly. He goes in and redoes the house and flips it. And it is partly the Batman thing. It's like, well, we gave you a franchise way back when and you did something magic with it. So yeah, you want to take a swing at X, like Dark Shadows?

Yeah. You just reminded me that Tim Burton directed a movie that starred Mark Wahlberg. Correct? That's weird. It's one of the weirdest things. It is a weird movie. That is a, that's a, I saw that in the theater. Sure. Also

at the job. I was truly excited for that movie. Were you? Because the, I was well, how old was I? I've maybe never been more excited for a film. The makeup were cool. I was like 14 years old I guess. Growing up in New York City, hardscrabble kid on the Lower East Side. Yeah, no other frame of reference. Only knows the hard streets of New York City.

Playing stickball with Jack Kirby. Jack, Jack, I'm walking here. Let me tell you. Hey, there's a car coming. I'm going to see this apes movie. You know Sims was a member of the Yancey Street Gang, right? Oh, he was? It was based on him. Oh my goodness.

Yeah, I would like send the thing one of those letters where it's like, you're a crumb bum. It's clobbering time again. That Yancey Street Gang won't leave me alone. We got to start calling people crumb bums again.'s clobbering time again. That Yancey Street gang won't leave me alone. We gotta start calling people crumb bums again. You know what I mean? Every fantastic thing, they're always like, you won't believe what they did. They called me a crumb bum again.

I never really figured out who those Yancey Streeters were. Those kids told me to go pack sand. Pack sand? I've always heard pound sand. I like pack sand I like pack sand Like well I'm gonna get out

My overhead bag Right Go down to the beach And pack some sand People need bags Of this stuff I guess I'm the one to do it Benji

The wizard is on the loose We have to fight him I don't know Some kid walked up to me Told me to go suck a lemon I don't know if I got the mood To fight crime God

He is He is a wildly depressive guy. I mean, it makes sense. He's easily triggered. He is made of rocks. He's an easily triggered libtard. He is. Get out of here. Send an ambulance.

He's an NPC. We can't talk about the Fantastic Four because I'll go down a Fantastic Four. I would love to talk about the Fantastic Four with you. Our worst episode we've ever done. Negative zone. The worst episode we've ever done on this podcast was we tried to cover all four Fantastic Four movies in one episode. Very early in the podcast.

Well, that was a high concept. You were swinging for the fences, much like Tim Burton's early career. Yes, yes. You had not become complacent and starting to flip your franchise. No, no. We were risky. We were taking risks. No, I mean, that's when it starts to become like,

you feel like Tim Burton probably wasn't really excited by Mark Wahlberg. And Mark Wahlberg, in interviews when they asked about Planet of the Apes, was like, I thought Tim Burton's crazy.

I want to be in that movie. I don't really care about Planet of the Apes. I didn't want to be in that fucking thing. But I was like, Tim Burton, he's cool, right? Neither of them seemed

very excited about the movie they were working on right they're just extremely expensive like where people have to put on makeup that probably takes like eight hours and they're just like yeah whatever i don't know planet of the apes like a planet full of apes weird tim burton regulars is like extra apes and the right like glen shayne right the fat orangutan right exactly no i mean that's, that's really the turning point for me. Sure. That makes sense. But Ed Wood.

We'll talk about that in another episode, but not me. Without me. Well, maybe. You can come back. Look, maybe I'll never leave. Sure. All right. Be a third host.

So Disney picks it up. They give him $18 million dollars and he makes an American masterpiece he does he makes his best movie I think that's what thinking back like

I guess it did you're so disturbed that it didn't do well yeah it just it just struck me as like oh yeah you feel like within your circles

everyone was obviously like in this movie my coastal elite circles yeah but I just felt like I think most people critically say oh that's a good movie.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I think the battle was just getting people to see it. That was the thing. It did not occur to me that that was a movie that would have put his rep in Hollywood at risk. Do you know what I mean?

As being able to helm, either as a write-off for Disney, in order to get him to come do something else, or as something where he might have to course correct. Obviously, Mars Attacks took that part

for him and one wonders if that hadn't been there. I don't think it made Hollywood doubt him as much as it maybe made him doubt himself because he was

such a savant in so many ways where it was just like this stuff's just connecting and when it doesn't once he's like, what am I missing this time? Right.

I imagine he's a guy who probably couldn't figure out why certain movies work and certain movies don't. Sure. You know? But his take on this movie is absolutely the perfect take for it. Yes. You know, like, whereas maybe, right, he approaches Planet of the Apes,

he doesn't have a hot, like, a very good concept of what the movie should look like. But, like, his idea that you were talking about, where it's like the movie kind of looks like an Ed Wood movie, but also is sort of sumptuous and beautiful to look at in a weird kind of a way it's meta but i think like a lot of tim burton stuff that is meta it also is very sincere yes and that's the big the idea to make it like through edward rather than about it right you know it's like it's not like look at this wacko it's sort of like it's very sincere

kitsch which is this other thing that he's really kind of owning at this point, where there's no ironic distance, which is so big at that point in the 90s. Or it's coming into fashion, I would say. I've seen the movie. I saw it when it came out. I probably saw it another time. And then the last time I saw it before watching it again for today was maybe two years ago. I decided to turn it on and watch it with my son, who at the time was 11, 12.

I'm like, I'm not sure that you're going to connect with this movie. You don't know what Plan 9 is. You don't have any of this kitsch or whatever. And there's obviously cross-dressing and and other stuff that maybe deserves a discussion at some point but let's just watch it and he's like i love it that's a great movie yeah it's such a winning movie well i realized what it was re-watching it today it's like it's the muppet movie it's a sure because it's like a family it's a family of weirdos colorful people trying to get into hollywood you're talking about my

favorite kind of story. Yeah, right. It's like. The movie where at the end you sort of see everyone together and you're like, oh, right. They've all sort of been in this together the whole time. The ragtag group that becomes family. Right. And then fights against the odds.

Oh, so it's Sarah Jessica Vargas. It's the same old like drug addicts and misfits. But it is like, especially like it's one of those movies where I get choked up when it does the sort of end postscript catch-ups on the characters. Because you're like, what a fucking group he built around them. Totally. All these, like, wacky people who all, like, they were all misfit toys who ended up on the same island. And they had all been drawn to L.A. presumably for the same reason, because they all loved movies or television.

Sure. Yes. I mean, and, you know, Bunny Breckenridge was this actor who, this is the thing I didn't realize, Paul Marco, the actor who played the cop, who's played in this movie by Max Casella. Yeah. The great Max Casella. The great Max Casella, younger Max Casella.

Baby face. I know. Post big, but, right, and newsies, but pre, he's in The Sopranos and he's like, hey, fuck you, you know, like, which just became his thing. But Breckenridge was this financially very wealthy socialite gay drag performer. Yes. And he was like Shakespearean. He's a very well-trained actor.

He's like of the Breckenridges, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the famous ones. Yeah, exactly. His great-grandfather was a secretary of state or something like that. Yeah. And he grew up in Paris.

He was married for some unknown reasons. John C. Breckenridge, vice president. Okay. Wow. And he got into the circle because he was sharing an apartment with Paul Marko. Yeah. They were like roommates.

Right. Like just rando people like, yeah, my roommate is an actor. living in LA, right? This movie like changes the timeline of certain people coming in

so that you don't have to introduce everyone separately. No, of course. But I read that the way that Paul Marco got into show business was that

Griswold like predicted he was going to have a big career in Hollywood. Oh, Griswold, yeah, I heard that too.

Griswold, sorry. Yeah, Griswold. Come on, get out of here. Clark Griswold predicted. Clark Griswold.

It's in, if you watch Vegas Vacation, it's in that movie. it's in, yeah. He, Griswold. Come on, get out of here. Clark Griswold predicted it. Clark Griswold. It's in. If you watch Vegas Vacation, it's in that movie. He just turned to the camera all of a sudden? No, but Griswold did say, like, I predict you will become a major movie star. And he's like, I guess I got to be in movies. Right. Here's the thing I always thought about. Paul Marco's daughter was my chorus chorus teacher in like middle school.

Okay. Holy moly. Okay. And she like told me she was like, you know, my dad, because there's a whole thing where he sets up the Paul Marco fan club that they say at the end. Yeah, at the end, right. That they, like Disney had reached out and were like, Tim Burton doing that wood movie. We'd love your participation.

And he was like, I'm so angry at these people, like making fun of Ed Wood, making this cottage industry, this thing that was really sincere and was like really against it because he felt like everyone was asking him to give quotes on these books

of like the worst movies of all time and he was like we were coming from a really pure place yeah we were friends they were all friends and he was like

it was my father's like greatest regret in life that he couldn't believe that they would be making a sincere like compassionate

movie about him when he saw it he was so touched that they like, Oh, right. Keyed into what was infectious about this guy, why all these people were drawn to him. Yeah.

And it is that Muppet show thing where you're just like, why does Gonzo think that there's a place for him in the industry? Right. Like with that routine. Right. But it's like, he literally can't conceive of anything else. And the same thing.

There was still a lot of chicken based vaudeville though in 1979, to be fair. There was a a touring opportunities that sort of thing but all these people like that he he gathers around them fit into that sort of like oddball space where it's like i got no other options and you believe there's no moment where you don't believe that they are all happy being there together yeah like right Like, you know, because, you know, Bella's getting in the lake. Right.

It's like, but like Vampyra, you know, she'll take his calls because she kind of knows he's sort of a, like, weirdly winning guy even though he's kind of

hassling her. He's like, you know, hey Vampyra, like, you know, because he's, he's,

I don't know, there's something about him, right? Like, that's the movie. The movie's not, what I hate about the biopics, which is what you were saying

is if it's about some genius there has to be the moment where the genius has the moment of genius and then he you know decides to van gogh decides to paint the sunflowers or whatever and it's very hard to represent that in a film yes like to represent creativity light bulb over the head you're right what the hell and it's classic yeah obviously this movie you don't see that on your computer this guy's never seen tune before sorry go ahead you were saying um this movie doesn't do any of the bullshit where it's like i don't know ed wood sees like a hubcap and he's like that looks like a flying saucer you know it doesn't do any of that stupid short it just it's all about his personality like everything that's the core of

the movie and so everything that follows from it just makes a weird sort of sense even though it shouldn't make any sense at all he's also a survivor like it's all like instinct because people keep on throwing these like curveballs in the way and he just adjusts and it's like i just need to make the thing right i i believe in myself so thoroughly that compromises be damned this movie will be a winner once it's finished but also he believes in the in the weirdos that he surrounds himself right and that whole thing where they're up all night and and lugosi gets into the water with the fake octopus yeah and marcos lost the octopus motor one of the great two words put together yeah they make sure to say like four times because it's such a good phrase and they're and they and they're they've been

shooting all night and then they get back to the soundstage and they have to keep shooting. Yeah. And he gives each of them this little pep talk that is totally sincere. And like,

if you were around him, you would do that too. I would be in that movie. And these are people who are- How could you say no to them? Yes. These are all people who are all in show business

for the right reasons because it's clear to all of them that they're never going to make it like real big. Right. You know, everyone below ed who believes that he is going to have the breakthrough is like i've sort of found my like middling spot yeah exactly chris well is doing right weird uh uh predictions but they love doing the work they don't know how to do anything else and they love the infectious spirit of other people who are as trapped as they are what's the line where and i don't know how, how historical this is,

but he gets the money from this Baptist church to make. I believe that's right. Yeah. And they have, it's like, and he says to Paul Mark, keep your Sunday open. The Baptist,

we're getting baptized. And I can't remember whether it was Criswell or someone else says to him, like, how do you get all of your friends? It's funny. It's funny. It's funny. It's funny Breckenridge.

Right. It's like, I don't know how you do it. They're all like standing in the pool. Right. Right. It is so perfect. Right up to Breckenridge almost drowned. And he just was like, I don't know how you do it they're all like standing in the pool right right after Bill Murray is almost drowned

and he just goes like I don't know how you do it and you get all your friends to get baptized Murray does nail that right where it's like do you renounce Satan and all that

sure that had to have been a Murray like he's so good in this I mean this was like where was Bill Murray at this time

Dan and I were talking about that because he's in the middle he's in the like he's about to enter his kind of family zone i feel like larger than life his like yeah groundhog day is just the year before so i guess all right i mean that that was obviously that's a wonderful movie but then his his next movies are kingpin larger than life space jam the man who knew too little wild things like what's weird is that like But then his next movies are Kingpin, Larger Than Life, Space Jam, The Man Who Knew Too Little, Wild Things. Yeah, what's weird is that this period, he's really good when he's taking supporting roles, and his vehicles aren't as good. Right. Yeah.

You know? Man, his monologue after they've rapped on Bride of the Monster. Mexico was a nightmare. Oh, that is so beautifully played. And that's like an example you look at this movie like from 1994 yeah and establish that right check the computer david can you look up on the computer is that what year this movie was released was 1994 yes the year of our lord maybe you want to check the computer though because it's there you might as

well use it right septum septum septum oh it was at the New York Film Festival. Really? Septi 23, 1994. I just think I'm sure this is a thing that all of you gentlemen have found as well. But you watch almost any studio comedy from the years 1981 to 2004. And the level of just like casual homophobia and transphobia is just like off the charts. It's like very few make it through without one thing where you're just like, homophobia and transphobia is just like off the charts. Like very few make it through without one thing where you're just like,

Jesus fucking Christ. Right. And like, here's like a movie that's actually dealing with like at this time, like pretty marginalized sexual orientations

and fetishes and things like that. In the time of the movie and weirdly in 1994 still. Right. And most comedies you think would really make a joke out of like and the weirdest thing of all is he wears their clothing right right you know like that

would be the coup de grace like set piece thing and the movie like it walks once again it's this fine line but it's like it doesn't take it so seriously where it then feels like condescending to be like you don't understand his struggle right but it it has a lightness of touch it allows him to be fully around people and human but there's like no shaming to any of their styles I mean it's why I love that picture so much right how comforting

it was for him like yeah and you understand anytime he's dressing like up especially in public like he's relaxed he's trying to de-stress like it never feels like just a visual punchline like oh look there he is again

right no and the moment where he it's the same rap party yeah in the oh yeah where he does the dance

in the meat locker yes that's owned by the cowboy who gave the money to make the movie Rance Howard yeah Ron Howard's father

oh is that who that is oh wow he was really great. Really great. Yeah. So that dance, so he comes in. He's a good boy.

He's a little slow, but he's a good boy. I think he could make one hell of a leading man. Sorry, go ahead. I want there to be a big explosion at the end. But he's,

you know, that's sort of like, I mean, Johnny Depp's thing he always said was like, his two inspirations for this performance were Howdy Doody and Ronald Reagan. It was just that sort of like bobble-headed enthusiasm. Like, we'll make that work. He's all teeth.

He's all smiles. But except when he doesn't have teeth, because he takes his teeth out. Yes. He does. To become, to have some Dracula in him. And when he does the dance, and he's in his Angora and he's wearing a veil and he takes the veil off at the end of the dance and he doesn't have his teeth in, it is a resting image.

One of the most, I mean, amazing images I've seen in movies. And like, you know, then Sarah Jessica Parker freaks out and says like, don't see you all But it is not that moment. It's like, look at this freak wearing women's clothes. And in fact, it's like. And then Sarah Jessica Parker freaks out and says, don't see you all the time. But it's not that moment where it's like, look at this freak wearing women's clothes. And in fact, it's like this guy has layers upon layers in him that we are just seeing a little bit of. But those are also the only moments in the movie where I think the film passes judgment on characters is when there is a character who passes judgment on the oddballs. Right. You know, because it's like they're just living their life. Yes.

You know? I mean, there's something so sweet about it that, like, everyone just on Facebook, like, there's a moment, you know, you barely see Tor Johnson and Bunny Breckinridge, like, corresponding. And then Tor comes up to him at the party and says, What does he say?

Mr. Bunny, what happened to your operation? Is he the one who prompts that mom? Yeah. He's the one who's standing next to him like Mexico was a nightmare. But you just go like, everyone when they get into this

like weird family goes like, what's your deal? Cool. Got it. Cool. Got it. Like they're all so disparate, but they're all just like

fine with each other. And they don't judge each other. At all. Like, they're all so disparate, but they're all just, like, fine with each other. And they don't judge each other. At all. And just in terms of writing and filmmaking, that exchange is eminently cuttable. Yes. Like, if you've got to get a couple minutes out of this movie. Right, because it has no bearing on the- It doesn't move anything forward.

If anything, it provides a glimpse into this character who is really not a main, obviously not a main character. You go like, hey, studio, here's going to help sell your movie. We've got Bill Murray who'll have funny one-liners. I'm not so cynical that I thought of it in those terms. But I'm saying this is the scene that makes him a tragic figure.

Don't put that in there. We want him to just be the funny one-liner guy. It's Bill Murray playing camp, and they're like, no, we're going to make him a man with pathos and struggles. But it's also the source of one of the funniest lines in the movie which is when he said and like i would have died if not for these men and he gestures to the mariachi band and that's they're they're his plus one he brings them with him all the time now because they're the only thing still and suddenly there's this whole other backstory movie that i would love to see it he lost his luggage he lost his

boyfriend but he claimed with him a mariachi band who now will not leave his side and i don't know whether that was scripted or whether that was a but it feels right like that's the thing that's what it does for this movie it makes the world feel real deep meaningful you see that connection which i had forgotten about between tor and bunny right that makes, like, this is what's happening in the background. They're all hanging out together. They're all friends. They have camaraderie. Set camaraderie.

Right. Like you and I shared on the Tick season two. Camaraderie. Sure. We were both engaged in a—I'm just—I'm not—I'm sorry if you didn't feel it. I definitely felt a certain sense of esprit de corps. The sound stage where we filmed was often negative 15 degrees. So you and I would usually huddle together for warmth.

Yeah, right. You had to be together simply because the human body generates more warmth. So much of the said camaraderie is bonding through trauma. Right. Yeah. So we got very close. Yeah. I'm just pointing out the very...

Yeah. We saw a lot of shit together. Right. That David didn't see because i just met you at a wedding that's true but we saw a lot of shit at that wedding that's true some good meals right like working on a show i don't know why i'm trying to play this up never mind ben added this out working on a show like the tick the tick season two for how difficult it is it's a hard show to make yeah uh it does have that feeling sometimes like the ed wood thing where you look around and The Tick. The Tick season two. For how difficult it is. It's a hard show to make. Yeah. It does have that feeling sometimes, like the Ed Wood thing, where you look around and you're like, what the fuck are we doing? Yeah. Not in a dismissive way, but you're like-

How is this happening? There are like PAs getting on their walkie talkies, like hurriedly yelling that someone needs to come and touch up a nipple. Right. You know? Because they're like prosthetic nipples and we have like puppets and like robots and suits malfunctioning. My character has 20 nipples and we have puppets and robots and suits malfunctioning. Spoilers, my character has 20 nipples.

Is that true? No. It's the tick. It could be true. But there are things like- My character's named Nip Slip. It's not bad. It's not bad.

No, no. It's not at all. There are things like that on set where it's like PA's very seriously saying like, is the nipple flying in? What's the ETA on the nipple? It's taking the most ridiculous stuff seriously. Right. Which is what this movie is about.

And all of us are just like, I hope this works. Right? Like, I think this is funny. Like, we're all just like in it together in like, I mean, like sub-zero weather. That's right. Peter's costume gets over-feeded so much.

And then you and Peter hired that mariachi band to entertain us. We hired a mariachi band to entertain us. Peter's costume is very warm, right? It's very warm, so they had to drip. He would still be sweating in the costume, and the rest of us were all hyperventilating. It sounds like a great way to do things. No one's happy.

One is hot. Everyone else is cold. I was happy. You're happy because you're in the company of Mr. Newman. I was in good company, and I did not have to wear one of those costumes. Right. No, you got to wear normal person clothing. Newman. I was in good company and I did not have to wear one of those costumes. Right. No, you got to wear

normal person clothing. Right. You had the least intense costume of anyone on the show. Yeah. And not only was it non-styrofoam or whatever you have going on there.

A lot of different things. Yeah. Not only was it non-confining. You're wearing zero circuitry. It was very forgiving soft clothes basically soft clothes alright so Edward

he's a director he lives in Hollywood this movie is pretty much about the production of three what are your favorite things about the movie David what you're putting me on the spot that's fine look it up on your computer my favorite things about that well one thing i wanted to talk about that i occurred to me as you were is one thing i like about his love of lugosi over karloff right so the obviously boris karloff is is a legend i i do

not have bell he was a real person he was a real actor who lived he did exist yeah it's true legend mr wayne um no but you know obviously karloff was more about the makeup as well. Sure. That early scene when Ed is watching Lugosi do the hands and Ed is sort of mimicking him on the couch. Yeah, he's doing those classic creepy summoning Dracula hands. summoning Dracula hands. Is like, that idea of the pure charisma of Lugosi as a performer

and like the physicality, like mattering so much more than anything else, which is so crucial to Edward because he has nothing to work with. He has to steal or scrimp, like, you know, anything he's even using as a set or a prop. I love that.

I love, I just love Lugosi. And he says it in the movie, but Bela Lugosi was the first choice for Frankenstein and he was like this is not a part

befitting a real actor this is like a stuntman part he's got no dialogue special effects right exactly I'm just groaning what you know Dracula

Dracula is about but that movie was so huge and Karloff who was like 50 at the time had been like a struggling actor forever like overnight became a star and then that led to him getting to play, like, romantic leads and verbal parts.

Like, it opened up all these other doors for him. For Karloff. For Karloff. Karloff's amazing. I mean, because didn't Lugosi eventually play Frankenstein? Yeah, so the crazy thing is he turns down— Like, in one of the late sequels? Dracula, they don't really make the same amount of straightforward sequels as they do with the other monsters.

They do, like, Dracula's daughter and shit like that, right? Right. But Frankenstein immediately becomes, like, franchise-y in the way the Wolfman did. Or Wolfman didn't really, but Invisible Man certainly did. Right. And so the first Frankenstein movie has Fritz, who's, like, the Igor equivalent, right? Yeah. Okay.

The second one doesn't have a character filling that function. And then the third one, Lugosi had, like, it was such a fatal mistake that he had turned down Frankenstein. There weren't Dracula sequels being made. He had sort of lost his moment. Oh, he needed money. He comes back and he plays Igor. So his character is Igor. And he's the one who is like the prototype of the son of Frankenstein.

The hunchbacked sort of like assistant sort of guy. He's more of a like Romanian gypsy sort of type. Right, sure. But it's with the hunch and the whatever. And he then becomes sort of the major antagonist of the sequels. Right. He becomes this like weird Machiavellian like sort of King Lear. Not King Lear.

Richard III sort of figure. And then the Ghost of Frankenstein. Yeah, that's the next one. Is the first one that Karloff is not in. Lon Chaney Jr. plays him. Yep, correct. Ends with Igor getting his brain

implanted into Frankenstein's monster so he has the power of Frankenstein. Why are you saying Igor? It's Igor, isn't it? Because his character's name is Y-G-O-R. Oh, I'm so sorry. Because then in Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman, Bella is now Frankenstein.

Right. So they were like, he really wants to play Frankenstein. Okay, so Y-Gor's brain goes into the monster. So that's enough excuse to just like, sure, he can. Right, right. So now, wait a minute. Now the monster, Frankenstein's monster, has got Wygor's brain in his head. Which means he now looks like Wygor.

No, that doesn't make any sense. Well, here's the crazier thing I'm about to tell you guys. Okay. Can't wait. So his character gets blinded, which is also why he wants himself put into Frankenstein's monster's body. He wants to see through those old decomposing eyes. He's got clear eyes again, what have you, right? But the logic chain that they follow

is, oh no, but he's blind in his brain, so when you put him in a new body, even if it has correct eyes, he won't see. Now, why Gore Stein is blind, too? So they shoot the whole movie where now Frankenstein's monster can talk, he sounds like Bela Lugosi, and he's blind.

So he spends the whole movie with his arms out in front of him feeling around like groping out to make sure he doesn't walk into shit talking like bella lugosi and they screen it they test screen it and the audiences think it's fucking ridiculous right they're like why does i don't want to hear frankenstein talking certainly not in that accent right he has way too much dialogue so they cut out almost all of his dialogue he's in the movie for like less than 10 minutes. And that is why without context, because they don't explain it,

all kids' impressions of Frankenstein's monster is the arms out. Right, right, right. Because that's this weird vestige of he's feeling around to make sure he doesn't walk into a wall. This was Ghost of Frankenstein? This is Frankenstein meets the Wolfman, right? Yes, that is the one in which he is the monster. It's mostly a Wolfman movie. And that's sort of like... Lon Chaney Jr that is the one in which he is the monster it's mostly a Wolfman movie and that's sort of like

Lon Chaney Jr. is the top liner there and that's sort of the end of his like legit and what year would that have been that is 1943

would you ask the internet 1943 yeah that's like the end of the line for him in terms of like the serious Universal Monster movies

right yeah I'm trying to find like a list of his because he made I mean it's right you know you look up any of those old actors

and it's like their filmography is a freaking right it's a scroll that's two feet long he becomes like a guy where it's you know you look up any of those old actors and it's like their filmography is a freaking it's a scroll that's two feet long I know that's something you have to deal with a lot because of your reliance

on the internet it's hard to parse exactly he also he played Dracula and Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein

right it doesn't even get like good billing no not at all he also was in a movie called bella lugosi meets a brooklyn gorilla of course it's probably my single favorite movie title of all time it's a good movie title uh and it's got like two guys who are being like they

were dean dean martin and jerry lewis knockoff right but they're not right yeah they're just sort of you're supposed to get the idea right uh have you guys seen dracula like yeah the the ridge the ridge it does yeah it's a really good i've seen it it's a good movie it's a really good bad boyfriend movie which is mostly what it's about is like you know my daughter is like acting all weird and then at night like he just shows up at the window and he's like i am dracula and it has no music yes because it was made so early in the sound days that they couldn't have dialogue and music at the same time so todd browning todd browning yeah and so if he made freaks after and then that kills

freaks freaks is his blank check yes right um and so when you watch it you can watch it these days there are like i think like philip glass wrote a score for it that an orchestra can perform or whatever. But it's fun to watch it with no music. I'm not going to watch it unless it's Danny Elfman music. Well, we could probably rope him in. But it's weird to watch it with no score. There's no movie that's like this. There's the weird ambient sound of just the castle.

Just the sort of hum. Yeah, yeah. And where someone's walking up the stairs and Dracula's creeping up behind him and you expect the... And instead it's just silence the stairs and Dracula's creeping up behind him and you expect the... And instead it's just silence. And Dracula just grabs him. That's very scary.

It's very weird. And then the other crazy thing is they were like, we should make one for Spanish-speaking audiences too. So at night when they rapped... They would use the same sets and costumes. Shot for shot, the same movie with Spanish actors. Wow.

Have you ever seen that one? Yes. A lot of ever seen that one yes a lot of people think that one's better really but Lugosi is so good they're very similar but the lighting's

a little more interesting it gets a little more stylized who was Dracula I don't know the guy's name wait a second I've got a computer in front of me I bet I can look this up

I will say this the lead the female lead of the Spanish Dracula is past and hopefully future guest Chris Weitz's grandmother. Lupita Tovar, is that her name? Yes.

Wow. Which is crazy. Carlos Villar is the son of Dracula. Sounds good. And what else did he do? Doesn't look like he had a long career. He's only got a few movies. He did Carlos Villar meets a Spanish gorilla.

A Spanish Harlem gorilla. You got to stick to the New York. All right. I never saw that original Dracula. It's worth seeing if it's ever like at a... But he was a seducer. It's very much a romantic, scary romantic thing. That's why he didn't want to play a monster.

He wasn't a monster. He was like, I'm a real actor. I'm a romantic lead. I'm sexy. I'm verbal. The problem was he has this very thick accent. What? And so studios...

If you really train your ear, you can pick it up. And studios are like, this guy can't play anything but Dracula. I know. I mean, the idea that the idea that this guy, nevermind the accent, I mean, physically he kind of looks like a monk fish. Right.

Like, yeah. And yeah, I understand that he was a, a leading man in European cinema. And, and, and on the stage,

right. He would do all his, uh, his traveling Dracula stage traveling drag. Right. Which is such a weird thing to think about where it's like that's what happened

to most actors is like their autumn years would be like reprising their most famous role in local theater. Like Jimmy Stewart did like Harvey for like 15 years.

Yeah, because there was in VHS. That's how people would see the movie. That Laurel and Hardy movie that at this point has already come out and been forgotten

is about their last tour together where they're doing the same old bits. Or they might be adapting them to a radio play. There were so many radio plays that were made based on Alfred Hitchcock movies. You'd have your shtick and you'd put it in wherever you could. That was the Lugosi thing was sort of like the vanity of like, you know, I will not succumb to being a lowly monster. Which is also like the most, that's the most terrifying horror story in Hollywood, right? That's where you're like, here's where I take my stand.

Right. And it's the most, the worst decision you can make. Because even where you have a vision of yourself, the rest of the world doesn't have. Karloff like had like no career beforehand, does Frankenstein and Bride of Frankenstein and blows up. And then his next universal monster is the mummy. And the mummy, he only looks like a mummy for five fucking minutes. He rises from the tomb and then very quickly becomes a very suave romantic lead. And it's the kind of part that lugosi wanted to play and karloff like took the monster role and then became the kind of actor that lugosi wanted to be for the next several decades what was it the bunny when they're they're getting baptized and the chiropractor who's

replacing lugosi who's now dead yes as a body double and there's that gag where edward says cover the bottom of your face yeah and he's like it looks just like no it's canny it's pretty pretty canny does not look like him at all and but he says have him say karloff is a cocksucker let's see if that works it's such a beautiful like when when characters in an ensemble like that when the characters reveal that they have shared jokes yes

it's such a it's such a well that's why that dancing scene is so great too you're like oh right they're all so bought into all of it right

they're all so cool with it but and that's revealed with such gentleness because of you're looking at it through Ed's eyes that's why I think the movie

is so brilliant. Right. Where it's like, Ed sees Bella, he meets him, right? He knows something's up with him. Like, Bella's a sad figure.

He lives in this crummy house out in the middle of nowhere. But there's that line where he says, big star, like, you must have tons of pictures lined up. Like, you cannot

have them in. And then, you know, in that first, when Bella goes off to obviously, like, take, you know, his heroin. Right, when Bella goes off to obviously like take you know his heroin right you have that

amazing like sort of like shadow play and to Ed like Ed knows something is up but he doesn't really think about it that hard yeah

do you guys know that I was I love kids you guys know that I was a literary agent yes in the 1990s

1994 I was working at Writers House literary agent when this movie came out okay and do you know that I was a literary agent in the 1990s? 1994, I was working at Writer's House Literary Agent when this movie came out. Okay. And do you know that I was the literary agent to Bruce Campbell,

the actor? Really? Oh, if Chins Could Kill or whatever. If Chins Could Kill. That was the book, right? That was the book that I sold for him.

Wow. That was a big book. That book was everywhere. Yeah. Anytime I was in a library, it would be prominently displayed. Libraries. Fah!

Sorry. Thieves. Thieves. They buy one book. These jerks. These cock-sucking librarians. Eddie. You don't even have to pay for membership.

If there are librarians listening to this now, let me tell you, stop stealing from me. John Hodgman Vacation vacation and available in bookstores for sale so i can feed my children wait so it was bruce campbell your agent to sort of complete the circle once you started writing books it would be fun you know well he would have done a better job for me than i did for him oh what do you mean well no but, but it was a thing where we had just gotten the internet in the office. Yeah. And first thing I did was type in my name.

Yeah. Nothing came back. Next thing I did was type in Bruce Campbell. Five million angel fire pages. Yeah, exactly. Including his own. Right. For sure.

So he had a GeoCities or something. Yeah. And before there was blogging, he was blogging. He was writing like here's this weird story from when i was on set for mikhail's navy with tom arnold or whatever right and he was a funny writer right so he'd done it all he'd been around yeah yeah and i and i and i clicked the email thing and i said have you ever thought about writing a book i'm sure you're and it was the same things like you must have dozens of movies lined up right he's like no i'm living

on a lavender farm in Southern Oregon. Crazy. I have all the time in the world to write this book. And so he did. And I also felt like, well, this is my big break. Like, I've got a celebrity book. I've got a celebrity client. Right.

You know, Bruce Campbell, Star of Evil Dead and Army of Darkness. Yeah. Right. This was music to no ears in publishing in 1997 or 8 or so. But that book did so very well. It did, of course, because people were dumb. Right. Yes.

It's hard to imagine a time now when what we term as nerd culture or geek culture or film culture or anything. I mean, this was in the mid to late 90s. There was barely an internet at this time. And, you know, Bruce was this classic guy who, if

he went to a horror movie convention, people would go bananas in the convention hall and in the lobby he'd just be this shimp that no one would know who he was or care, you know? And the people who were buying books at the time were a lot more lobby people they were you know they're like give me i don't know these movies these movies are this adventures of briscoe county junior wasn't that show canceled i'd have to be like yeah but actually there wasn't much of an argument to make for that. But I would say, look, he's going to these conventions

and he'll sit there and sign things that people bring to him for two hours. Right. And the one thing that he's not signing is something that he owns, his book. And the other thing is you go like, okay, so maybe only 2% of the population in 1994 knows Bruce Campbell by name, but every single person in that 2% is going to buy that book. It's not like, oh, yeah, right, Tim Allen. You're describing the economic model of all podcasts.

It's when pop culture changes where it's like they realize like, well, if you have a really engaged niche, you can produce the same numbers as someone who's known by everyone. Most people might not know you, but you can be enough people's favorite thing. It was at a time when

people were beginning to acknowledge that a niche was something you could sell to. But there was still a mainstream though. Now there isn't. I think I've told this story in the podcast before, but I went to cover VidCon, the YouTuber, social media, vlogger convention

for a TV show that then got canceled after we produced the package of me covering VidCon. And we were in the lobby checking in, and it was just like Beatlemania times a billion. Every five seconds, another kid with good sneakers would walk out and would get mobbed by 47 13-year-olds and their moms. And we were checking in and being like, do you know who that is? Do you have any idea who that have you even heard of these people and then uh i was like oh shit look over there and it was katie couric surrounded by like six bodyguards right and she clearly was like fuck i'll just walk quickly i don't want to get spotted no one cared no one cared and you could

see her going from being like defensive like i don't want to be bothered to being like why is no one bothering me? Right. But it was that thing where it's like, every single person who's a fan of this fucker with the swoop haircut and the dunks is standing right next to him right now. Right. And they will pay any amount of money for anything he touches. Well, you guys are familiar with the Janoskians? The Janoskians.

Come on. A troupe of young prank video makers uh makers from oh they're australian i'm not familiar with these in 2013 i'm taking an airplane they look like someone like just randomly cast a bunch of people to play youtube stars i thought you were mispronouncing the name of the uh battle obsessed uh alien bug species from Star Wars Episode II Attack the Clones. The Genosians, of course. The Genosians. The Genosians.

Janoskians. Yeah. I took this plane to Chicago for a comedy festival. A couple of these doofuses got kicked off the plane. A couple of Janoskians. Oh, were they doing a prank on the plane? They were trying to pull a prank on the flight attendant. And the flight attendant said,

no. What was it like? I don't know. Do you think the pilot was like, we, we got a couple of Genoskins and like, all I, all I know is that they,

they, they came, these three young dudes. I run a kid hijacking. Came giggling down the aisle. Sure. To take their seat wherever they were sitting. And then there was a lot of whispering among the flight attendants.

And then they came giggling back up the aisles. They were escorted off the plane. And then the pilot got on and said, sorry about that, ladies and gentlemen. We're going to be delayed for a few moments. A couple of passengers had to be escorted from the plane. They were not the kind of people we like to have flying they don't uh deserve to fly with us today wow seriously wow heavy but then they then i landed and on the other side everyone get off the plane was what was that what was that us the genoskins at these these youtube kids and they they were coming

to do something completely different they're not part of the comedy festival. Yeah. But they finally arrived. They got the next flight. Uh-huh. And they were staying in my hotel. Oh, boy. And I had never seen this happen before.

But by the next day, there was a constant vigil of hundreds of teenagers outside the hotel. Jesus Christ. All the time like if you were and it was and they were just waiting for them to come out yeah i mean i'm not exaggerating like hundreds of of young people sitting on the ground yeah and it was like this is the kind of thing you you would think like the beatles you know what i mean like anyway people knew about ed wood and mainstream because this movie came out in 1994. Sure. People did not know generally who Bruce Campbell was.

Right. And it was that- They might have heard of The Evil Dead, right? Yeah. And I was definitely Ed Wood to Bruce Campbell's Bella in that point. I was just like, this is so incredible, Mr. Campbell. Thank you so much for having me. I was taking the time. I was like, sure, kid.

But here's a movie about people who were not popular, successful, nor critically supported. Right. You know, it wasn't like, oh, they were the under, you know, sort of. Forgotten, essentially. Right. I mean, the thing about Plan 9, there's two. I mean, Bride of the Atom, I guess the funny thing. Have you seen the movie?

Have you guys seen these movies? I've seen Glenda and I've seen Plan 9. I've seen Plan 9. I've seen all three of the movies that are in this film. This movie essentially the structure is It's three films. Glen or Glenda

Bride of the Monster is what it was eventually called in Plan 9. And Bride of the Monster really it's just the thing where Bella is like flopping around

with the octopus that I guess Wait is it called Bride of the Atom or Bride of the Monster? It was released as Bride of the Monster. That's some real deep

internet knowledge right there. Thank you. You're welcome. Glen or Glenda is a truly strange thing. I've never seen it. It's not like a schlock movie like the other ones. No, it's a real song of his heart.

Yes, and he's in it, obviously. But then also it has these cuts to Bela Lugosi as a weird scientist man who's pulling the strings. That's pull the string. And all this stock footage of buffaloes running i mean that's the one that is aggressive outsider art like you know where you're just like i can't understand how anyone ever thought that's one of my favorite little like scene more slits is the early chunk of the movie where he's working on the studio and he sees the stock footage guy brings him in he's like what would you make out

of this and he's narrating how he would work it into a narrative right yeah because the octopus is going to be his big climax right that's what's so good about this ways i mean karasuski and alexander are such good writers they did american crime story right you know they've done other things like they're sort of good at weaving all that in like organically that's so when he then writes the script with the octopus in it like 50 minutes later. You know where he got that idea. And then Plan 9, I feel like it's not just that it's so crummy, but it's also

the dentist thing. It became a movie where you could see a chiropractor. The guy's so big he couldn't come out of the grave. The actor died, so they hired a chiropractor. Behind the scenes stories of it. You're telling stories to each other as you're watching this thing where you're like

you can't you won't believe like what is the backstory here right yeah unpacking plan 9 is a lot more fun than watching plan 9

right and vampires in it oh yeah right yeah plan 9 I mean a lot of these movies are just conversations mostly

like in rooms you can't afford anything more exactly oh god I love it when Dolores comes in and plays the secretary and he's like fucking that was great and she's like i know it was that whole chunk of her like coming in asking for her

motivation he's right you're a secretary you're a file clerk you're going to file some things oh boy um right he there's just enough uh regular person in edward for him to not seem like a total space alien right like when he gets frustrated you're like okay i'm glad the guy's frustrated because this obviously is beginning to mount on but i think that's the reason like the thing that differentiated edward from a bunch of other guys is that like this was never hack work for him like he was like right these are all opportunities for me to like Don't make him a big picture. Right. Right.

These are opportunities for me to really say something. Right. And the whole sort of Orson Welles thing that like he views himself as a guy Obviously that scene

is wonderful. Yeah. Right. Which you know I mean this is a thing that I love is that It's your man Vincent

Ben. Ben's best friend Vincent D'Onofrio. Vincent D'Onofrio plays Orson Welles. Are you a a D'Onofrio? He's real into the Kingpin.

I'm super into his performance as Kingpin. We also went to the same high school. Really? Oh, really? Yeah. Ben tweeted at him, and D'Onofrio retweeted. He did. But didn't give a follow back.

No follow back. But that's okay. I'm going to get D'Onofrio on the show someday. You think so so Vinny? Talk ditches. Sure. Yeah we'll talk some ditches. One time

my children I live in Park Slope, Brooklyn and my children decided to have a stoop sale and sell off some old books

and stuff. You know what? It's a dumb thing in Park Slope. Maybe it was also a lemonade stand. Maybe it was a taco bell and Pizza Hut.

Side by side. And they were youngish. They couldn't just be out there on the street without having someone there. And boy, was I glad that I was there to keep an eye out. Because at some point I noticed this guy is just standing off to the side, just like watching my kids for a long time. And a really weird detail was that he was smoking a cigarette, but he was keeping the cigarette behind his back.

So every now and then he would just puff on the cigarette and then put it back behind his back, just kind of watch my kids sell lemonade and kind of nod along and take it all in. He wasn't getting a real sense of menace necessarily, but there was a definitely an odd vibe. And I realized, Oh, that's Vincent D'Onofrio. That's fine.

The D'Onofrio is just his way of being. That's just him being out in the world. I definitely remember seeing him in situations like that in the early two thousands in New York City. Like, oh, yeah. Like in his like criminal intent years where it was just like, oh, who's that weird guy? And he's like, oh, that's famous character actor Vincent D'Onofrio. It is so weird that he was on a Law and Order show where he played a Sherlock Holmes guy.

Yeah. Who would like look at the air and be like, the killer was left-handed or whatever. Shit like that. But he was sort of this regular, kind of uneasy presence of Brooklyn and downtown Manhattan in those years. They cast him, I think, because of a physical resemblance to Orson Welles.

Certainly not for his voice. He becomes obsessed with Orson Welles and is like, this is like, I want to really represent this man in this one scene. They shoot it. He doesn't sound enough like Orson Welles. They dub him with Maurice LaMarche. With the brain.

Voice of the brain. He is the brain. And he's Orson Welles on the critic. Every time there's a cartoon character that sounds like Orson Welles. He is what Orson Welles sounds like to me. When I hear Orson Welles, I'm like, he could maybe lay it on a little thicker. Do you know that this becomes D'Onofrio's Waterloo,

that he couldn't get the voice right, and he keeps on trying to play Orson Welles, and he eventually self-financed, directed, and starred in a short film? No. That's like Orson Welles getting ready for, like, a Mercury Theater production. It's called, like, Five Minutes, Mr. Welles or something. Yeah, Five Minutes, Mr. Welles or something. And he got the voice down, like, to his credit.

I bet his voice wasn't even that bad. And I'm going to say this right now I'd love to hear it I love that scene it's a little but it's really jarring oh you mean the dubbing itself

Maurice LaMarche it is and I love Maurice LaMarche I love the brain I love the brain but it is the brain but it is so it is such

a bit yes that it doesn't feel right it does give it a weird sort of mythic weight to it because it feels otherworldly.

In the scene, Orson Welles is trying to take over the world. Yes, he is trying to take over the world. He is plotting. Every other night. No, you're right. But D'Onofrio really does look like Orson Welles. And the mannerisms. The mannerisms.

All of it. It's acting. It's not just what he looks like. I remember my mom being like, when I was watching this movie for the first time. Because Orson Welles was lit a very specific way even if he was sitting

in a bar working on getting funding for Don Quixote yes right no he'd always bring in a fill light

someone was I was talking to someone who frozen peas who worked on one of the Mission Impossible movies and they said Tom Cruise

a fan comes up to him will always stop take the picture with him but he'll make a lighting guy run in and hold up like a key light. Are you kidding me? Oh, really? Yeah.

I was like, that guy's a fucking pro. Yeah, because he's a pro. He's given him a good photo. He knows his angles. He's like, can you just come in here and just three quarters right here?

Absolutely. Yeah. And he probably wants the other people to look good too. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Boy,

it's not often that people will ask for a photo with me. Uh-huh. No? Maybe when I'm on tour. Yeah, you're very visually recognizable. When I'm on tour for Judge John Hodgman, we'll do a meet and greet after, and then there'll be some photographs. Sure.

I feel very happy that I've spent some time in front of the camera so I know a little bit of how light works because people have no idea. They backlight themselves all the time. All the time. Yeah. Just a little bit of how light works because people have no idea. Yes. Like, they backlight themselves all the time. All the time. Yeah. Just a little inside basement. I've told this story about... How do you feel about the fact

that Vincent D'Onofrio as the kingpin is currently the acting attorney general of the United States? See, that's... Okay. That seems a controversial choice

It feels like a conflict of interest by Donald Trump to choose Vincent D'Onofrio. He made it clear though, as the kingpin. As the kingpin. Right, right, right. As whatever the fuck his name is, Whitaker.

Do you know what I find funny about this? Like at the, right. It's uncanny. You want to say uncanny. I'm not talking about like Bela Gossi looks like this chiropractor. No, it's one to one. What I find funny about this is at the time we're recording, Matt Whitaker is the acting. Acting AG. Right, AG. By the time we're recording Matt Whitaker is the acting acting AG

right AG by the time this episode comes out who knows even odds that Wilson Fisk is actually

actually he's jumped out of the pages of comic books looks like him it will be literal Marvel super villain Wilson Fisk my first act

is to crush the spider right um Stiltman will be head of agriculture oh sure I like I like Stiltman uh Boone High agriculture Sure I like Stiltman Boonton High School was the high school

Boonton, New Jersey was where the Misfits recorded their first album Walk Among Us which references a lot of these films Yes, the Misfits have Ed Woodsong Boonton, New Jersey is famous for being the only city

in the United States of America that actually is located entirely within one boot, right? It's an old dirty boot in a river. In a ditch. Yeah,

with a population of 4,000. What happened to that town is then they flooded the boot. It's a portkey. They flooded. They flooded the boot. That's right.

It's a battered old portkey on a hill. So the former town that was built in a boot is under the river now. Oh, wow. So there's like an Atlantis type. Your waters were the first to be chlorinated? I'm reading a Wikipedia entry for New Jersey. They have a site for where the chlorination happens.

The motto is a great place to live and work, which, you know. There's a question mark. Take a second pass at that. We could workshop that a little bit more. Maybe something a little bit more specific. I just think it's a great place to live and work. Perfect. Yeah. I mean, we are a sunken city.

We're the Atlantis of New Jersey. We can come up with something a little bit more. Like even the Atlantis of the Garden State. Toxic Avenger. A chlorine-soaked ditch hole. Toxic Avenger was discovered at my high school because he was the janitor. And they said, put him in a movie. When you said that, I thought you were kidding.

No, that's true. You know that wasn't actually a Toxic Avenger. Your janitor wasn't actually the Toxic Avenger. Yes! I thought that was a joke when we talked about that. No! He was like, we used to call him Melty. And then he got booked.

Alright, I can't even keep track of this anymore. I don't want to track of this anymore. I don't want to track this anymore. New Jersey is all satire anyway. It's a very ironic state. I'm Ben to grow up in Tromaville. Is Boonton, New Jersey in pork roll territory or Taylor ham territory?

Good question. Or no, Taylor ham. Taylor ham. Well, you are dead to me. Get out of here, here Ben John is shaking with rage you could have given me some warning this is one of those ways that's hard to talk about because it is

just like oh it's just perfect here's another scene that's perfect what's wrong with Ed Wood we've talked about a lot of the scenes I feel like that particularly strike I'm trying to think if there's anything else where I'm I'm trying to think of like other anything else where I'm like... I'm trying to think of other elements I feel like we haven't talked about. I like that

the disgraced senator from Godfather 2 got work as a Baptist preacher. Yes. I also like, what is it, Mike Starr, the guy who plays the producer who's like, look, I make crap. I already sold the poster in New Mississippi. Oh, yeah. He's so great. funny so a thing i find interesting just because i'll bring this up later

but i have seen the the actual christine jorgensen story the one where oh yeah sure the company she actually sold the rights to which was slightly more respectable right a real kind of like schlocky melodrama company so they weren't like schlocky like you know genre films but it was like ripped from the headlines true melodrama stories and that movie feels like the kind of thing that burton is then riffing on in big eyes uh-huh is that sort of like itchy weird like sub douglas sirk right. Sort of like real tale of like, can you believe it? That movie is boring.

It's interesting. Yeah. Boring is the opposite of interesting. Well, interesting. I call it interesting eyes. The other one that I saw that I had never seen, the other Tim Burton movie

that I had never seen recently was Big Fish. Oh, yes. Sure. Another big one. And I know you guys are going to cover that. We I had never seen recently was Big Fish. Oh, yes. Sure. Another big one. And I know you guys are going to cover that. We are.

But now that we're, you know, it's like, yeah, it feels as though this movie, Mars Attacks, then he goes into retreat mode. Right. Then Sleepy Hollow, then it's Planet of the Apes

and then Big Fish comes after that. Big Fish is him sort of sneaking out being like, you know, can I be, I mean, that was the one that was tipped. It felt like he was taking another.

Here's a movie with real people in it. It was t's like his sort of oscar coming out movie where it's like yeah here finally the critics and the audiences and the awards voters are all gonna like shower this with attention and it got nominated for best score sure and it did okay and i saw it 10 times in theaters that's bizarre i was obsessed with it when really yeah i had never cried during a movie and that movie just destroyed me in the last 20 minutes and I was like I gotta keep on getting this mix. That movie makes me cry. I think the ending is lovely

and like I think but it's okay. I haven't seen it since I saw it so what did you think John? What did you think? I saw it in an unusual circumstance. It was being screened on the back of a big fish. It was hard toed. On the back of a big fish? On someone?

Yeah. It was hard to follow. You had to swim real fast. Scalovision. I was seeing an underwater boot in New Jersey. Sure. No, I went to a wedding in Puglia, Italy. Oh.

Drew Scott, one half of the property brothers got married and invited me to his wedding are you serious are you friends with them i'm friends with both of them how how did you become friends with the property brothers well you know some people follow me back on sure right you know what i mean like denofrio over here yeah still haven't i still haven't cracked the denofOnofrio code. But the Scots are fun guys. And somehow they invited me to... Well, I say they.

But they are a unit. He and his lovely bride, Linda, invited me to their wedding in Italy. I'm like, I can't not go. And I had an extra day there. And Drew was like, come on over to our villa. Most everyone's gone home, but the family and I are going to watch a movie.

You just watched Big Fish in his villa. Big Fish. Is this like, this is recently, within the last year. Yeah, this spring. So they were just like, what should we watch tonight? I guess Big Fish. It's his favorite movie. Wow.

It's his favorite movie. That's nice. And I was like, wow. It was obviously unusual to see Big Fish under the Stars projected off his computer onto a screen. But it was kind of appropriately surreal and magical. I was going to say, that seems like a fairly good environment to see that movie. So I enjoyed it very much. I'm a big fan.

I don't think it's perfect. But I do think that was another attempt at a big evolution for him. I mean, you have the human real world. And was he punished or rewarded for that? Sort sort of in the middle i think in the middle it wasn't like enough of a bomb for him to absolutely i think when you're a guy like that who's had such highs right if it's middling you're like i don't know i guess i should like go back to the other stuff you know right and i think the other thing is he's always offered that kind of shit like he's never gonna have a shortage of people going like do you want to reboot like you know like the fucking this or that you know right do you want to do a

please believe it or not or whatever right there are always things that people are coming to him and saying like this and he's like i don't know i guess i could use that as a vehicle to make this thing you know i guess i could use that that gives me access to this technology or this low shooting location or this actor or whatever that I think it's like, I mean, we talked about this in other episodes, we'll talk about it in other episodes, but like in the early 90s, he was like developing a lot of stuff that was like weird passion projects that all now have seemingly like fallen by the wayside that he's not pursuing.

Which of those would you like him to revisit? There's the one. Understanding that he is now, he's grown, he's in a different place in his life, maybe he's not interested, but what was the one that you wish... What's it called? The Iron Boy? It's based on a manga, and he was going to make it as a musical, and Sparks wrote

all the songs. Right. Oh, cool. The Melancholy Birth of the Iron Boy. Yeah. Crazy. What's your fish that got away? What's your big fish that got away see I'm not what's your big fish that got away I'm not a Burton guy

like the way that Griffin is very funny I liked it a lot John I'm trying to think the other ones I mean yeah Ripley came really close you know what he was going to make

instead of this what Mary Riley right the sort of Jekyll and Hyde from right

that was developed as Tim Burton Winona Ryder right and the studio was like, we're hiring Julia Roberts. And he was like, all right, forget it.

I'll go do something else. Star of Amazon's Homecoming. That's true. Yes. Formerly a podcast. Hey. You think someone will make a very visually distinctive podcast

about blank check? Like where it's like all spiral staircases and shit? Yeah. Yeah. Same as Mel's been talking about. Well, those of you who can't see, those of you listening at home can't see that this room is full of spiral staircases and shit. Yeah, yeah. Same as Mel's been talking about. Well, those of you listening at home can't see that this room is full of spiral staircases.

This is kind of an M.C. Escher upside-down... I insisted. ...mindscape. It's good for acoustics, not artistic. What is the matter with me? No, I got it. The only other thing I want to talk about in the movie is the ending.

Yeah, I'd like to talk just very briefly about the beginning as well, because I think the beginning is such a smart... I'd like to talk about the middle. Okay, cool. All right, we've got it covered. We'll knock it out. What order should we do it in? Probably middle first.

What about the beginning? No, I just think it's such a smart table setting, and I don't know whether this was in the script or his idea, but I think it puts a perfect frame around the movie and the sort of pitch it's going to be at and the tone

and sort of the kind of film it's riffing on even if you haven't seen those movies because starting with the Criswell rising

from the coffin and the performance this is one of the I think played by the very very talented

but appropriately unemployable Jeffrey Jones. Extremely unemployable. Hollywood's probably most talented pedophile. One of the most wildly unemployable men. I think there's stiff competition, unfortunately. Let's not use those words. Industry of scumbums. Monsters.

Not even scumbums. Crumbums. I mean, not even crumbums. Scumbums. Sandbaggers. Is this the first? No, what's the first Jeffrey Jones? Beetlejuice. Right. monsters not even scum bums I mean not even crumb bums scum bums sand packers what's the first Jeffrey Jones Beetlejuice

and we talked about Sleepy Hollow which we've already recorded all these things so you were saying Criswell emerges from the coffin even if you didn't grow up watching guys like this his performance is such a certain type of entertainer the language with which he's

speaking the terrifying true tale yeah believe it or not of you know edward d wood it like really sets the tone and then those and that miniature house that you that you go that's the other thing you i mean you have all these models the beautiful like the title cards on the gravestones which is also just nice it's like a fucking practical thing that you like the practicality is what's so fun about it in general. And then that great transition from like model houses, then you have the stop motion tentacles and everything.

And then there's the beautiful transition from like that to now we're in a real... How come they didn't get a stop motion tentacle into Big Fish? Did they have one in there? Because that's at that point he knows CGI.

Sorry, you were saying. No, I just think it's like artificiality,ity artificiality height and height and height and you're seeing what edward's mind his movies would look like right this is like full tim burton artistry right and then it literally brings you down to earth to like rainy theater yeah here's edward like now you understand what he is seeing in his mind's eye. And I just think it, like, lays everything out perfectly. And I like that at the end, they bookmark it with the, like, reverse footage of Criswell going back into the coffin. Right.

That's what you were going to talk about at the end, David. You just stole your thing. Anything about the middle you wanted to get to? I love how it connected the beginning to the end. It does do that very well. It's a great bridge between the two. It really weaves the two together in a very satisfying way, right? Yeah, the middle is great. Good, solid middle.

Because I was like, how is this going to end, right? And then the end came. Yeah. And the middle was kind of a bridge to that. You were like, how is this going to end? And the movie was like, we'll get to that. Right. Hold your horses.

I consider the opening credits to be the beginning of a movie. The entire movie is the middle. Right. And then the closing credits are the end. For me, a movie ends, if you ask me, and this is just my opinion, a movie ends after the end credits have finished rolling. Right. That's for me. That's it.

That's the end of the movie. And the lights come up. Wait a minute. And the guy comes out sweeping up popcorn. What about the post-credits sequence? Well, I mean this is where it gets tricky so

and once again I don't want to get political here for me if there is a post credit sequence get ready to cut this out Ben just in case he gets too political the movie ends after that and if there isn't a post credit sequence

it ends before that obviously we're going to have to cut that out that's way too inflammatory that's for me when a film ends and we're back so the ending no just what did we're back. So the ending. What did you want to say about the ending? Well, the loveliness of everyone being collected together at the theater.

But just one of the great lines that we all reference to this day. This is the one I'll be remembered for. And the like guilelessness of it. And that it's also true. This is the one he's remembered for, right? And it is, yeah. And that he gets to give you. Tor's the one he's remembered for, right? And it is, yeah. And, uh, that,

that he gets to give you, Taurus family, his wife and son. I want to know what that actor who played the son is doing now. Uh, real look to him. That's Chris Pratt. He should have been in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

If it only made a few years earlier, he had a little gloop. Uh, George Amell Steele and a great fucking performance. He's so good. He's great. It's great that it's like one wrestler playing another wrestler. The first scene where Ed Wood's like, Ieele in a great fucking performance. He's so good. He's great. It's great that it's like one wrestler playing

another wrestler. The first scene where Ed Wood's like, I want you to be in the picture. He's like, I'm too ugly for movies. Like, you know, where he's lying on his front.

He just like sees the thing in everyone. The other, I mean, at least Marie is great as I just love the thing where Tor has all the lines because no one wants

to speak in the movie. There's that thing. It's unintelligible. Why is he saying that? Yeah. And he goes, well, Legosi's dead. Vampire won't speak.

We got to give someone the dialogue. Oh my God. Like everything's so logical to Ed, you know? Yeah. Like he never gets like,

I mean, that's that other beautiful piece of writing is they walk out of the theater. He feels like he's a mill, you know, walking on sunshine

because it's like the first screen of his. Maybe the only movie that does not use that song. This might be the one. But it's like this is the first premiere of his life that didn't end with like tomatoes being thrown at him. Do we know why they're all rioting in that middle premiere? Is that explained? I think it was just like that's a crummy theater.

That's just like where's the movie and they're rioting. I'll hear like interviews with like people who grew up in that era being like, the theater was a madhouse. Like it was just children. Yeah.

And they'd play like six B movies in a row. Right. And they're just like eating candy and drinking soda. Like it's like the schlock theater.

I get it. It's just sort of, it's such a thing when they open the door and it's like absolute chaos. But he feels that sense of victory and he loves the people he's surrounded by and he like says to charquette like let's go get married let's drive out there and he's like but it's raining and the hood is broken and he was like i'm sure i'll clear up the second we turn the corn that's a beautiful optimism of the guy it is and that he found someone who like loved him for

who he was yeah sure all of the the other thing you know all of the rehab it is and that he found someone who like loved him for who he was yeah sure all of the the other thing you know all of the rehab stuff like and that yeah but yeah that's it's all it's also unjudgmentally handled as everything is in this and i love that when the final footage he shoots with bella is like the one time that he's kind of soberly seeing everything i mean that plays it really well where it's like he's doing this just for Bella. So Bella has something to live for. This isn't him being like,

I can get this movie. Right. I'm using you. I'm going to get this to make money here and do that. It's like you probably have a week left

so I want you back in your element to feel like you're a star again. Right. That was very beautiful. Yeah. Right. It's a beautiful,

it's a beautiful friendship they have. I was going to say, I mean, you were saying like the vampire thing. I mean a beautiful friendship they have. You were saying the vampire thing. She's so good, Lisa Marie. She's so good in it. But he's kind of a pest the whole time. But the thing that I think finally breaks her down is that he's also the first guy to call when her

career goes bottom up. He keeps on trying to get her in there. She's, okay, value. Now I'm single. She's a beautiful woman. Use her in some way and that's like front page of the newspaper they cancel her show she can't get arrested in town and she's just like he still doesn't care she gets that it's not transactional with him he he just is an admirer he likes right you know that you know that dana gould was to vampire what edward was to bella lugosi really yeah dana gould interviewed her oh really and then became her friend and caretaker to the end of

her life that's fascinating not not live in caretaker but like i do like that the movie acknowledges elvira kind of stole her bit. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. But Dana has incredible, you should get, you should, I mean, you should drop your embargo on Dana Gould. I know that you feel very strongly that he should never be a part of this. So Ben, just make a note, delete this episode, we're going to re-record next week with Dana Gould. Yeah, perfect.

Because he's got an incredible story. Yes. Note that's nuts. Yeah. And maybe, you know, in the future, when Dana is getting on in years, you can no that's that's that's nuts yeah yeah and maybe you know in the future when Dana is getting on in years you can be Edward to Dana Gould

I would love to do that I would absolutely love that right no it's it's just a lovely movie and a wonderful bunch of people I'm gonna

I have one thing that I want to ask you guys sure I do not have an answer for this it's not like I've got something you know prepared right right we all wish that guys. Sure. I do not have an answer for this. It's not like I've got something, you know, prepared.

Right. Right. We all wish that Tim Burton would find that passion project that he set aside in the 90s or has a new one today. Yeah.

We also know that he's going to be flipping franchises. He's going to be putting a fresh coat of paint on some beloved old properties. Yeah.

He'll make a He-Man next or whatever. What? What? What would you actually like to see him do? What franchise would you have him flip? Oh, if I had to let him loose at a franchise. Yeah. Right, right.

Space 1999? Yeah. All right. He's never made a sci-fi. I know Mars Attacks is a sort of a sci-fi. Space 1999. Hang on, hang on. I'm still marveling.

I'm still reveling in this amazing idea. This full circle-ness of it, but it's also a great idea. Right? Tim Burton's Space 1999. The moon goes flying off into the galaxy or whatever. David Sims, ladies and gentlemen, and non-binary people who are listening. There is, I mean, the tricky thing with him is you go,

okay, so it's like one of two columns. That sounded like I was making a joke at the expense of non, but I don't say ladies and gentlemen anymore.

That was a, for that reason, and that was a verbal tick and I take it back. David Sims, listeners to this podcast. I do folks. Well,

ladies and gentlemen, right. It's just a person. It's like stage patter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still, anyway. It's a genius idea is what I'm saying. It's like stage patter. Yeah, right. Still. Anyway. It's a genius idea is what I'm saying. It's a great idea. Greenlit in the room.

That is, I think that's the line I think you have to go through. You might want to make it like 2099. Nope, 1999. Alright, fair enough. I don't mind. It's all about the second. Starring Vincent D'Onofrio. Now that's what I call music compilation. No, I, you know, I think the better line of thinking is like

what genres has he not played in yet? Because there is that thing where you go like, okay, well you either pick something that feels like it's right in his wheelhouse. Like there was the rumor a couple years ago that he was going to do a stop motion Addams Family. And you were like, they don't need to make that. We all have it in our heads. You say it and I can picture the whole thing.

It's a waste of time. But then the opposite thing of like, what if you did a take on something that you never think timber would do you're like but i know what that's gonna look like too so you kind of stop stalling griffin what do i want him to do the tick yeah that's the answer no i mean not the worst idea in the world no i'll tell you like i would like i think it would be cool to see him return to the superhero world, but do something like Deadman. You know? Oh, that'd be cool. Yeah.

Those weird sort of like pulpier sort of mystical sci-fi characters. Son of Satan. Right. Right. Right. Do some Jack Kirby shit. Etrigan the Demon. do some Jack Kirby shit Etrigan the Demon

I mean I just feel like there are things like that where it's like it's a property but it's not a hugely well known thing but you're getting in because it's the DC umbrella or something and give him a really functional like 3x story can Tim Burton make the correct Fantastic Four

I don't think he's the guy but I mean make the correct Fantastic Four? I don't think he's the guy, but I mean, yeah. I mean, I would see his Fantastic Four circa whenever they want to make a Fantastic Four movie for the first time, right? You know, like, whenever it has-

Why can't we have one every year? Yeah. I'd be fine with that. If you, like, offer me the choice of no more Fantastic Fours and just every year there's someone else takes a crack at it, I'd take the latter. I feel like- me the choice of no more Fantastic Fours and just every year there's someone else takes a crack at it

I'd take the latter. I feel like based on this movie and the sense of offbeat off kilter family that he was able to create in this movie

yes now I'm thinking yeah I feel like the logical end game here is that Marvel is just gonna let Peyton Reed

make the Fantastic Four movie wouldn't that be an incredible full circle thing? That's what I'm hoping happens. And they let him make something that's fairly close to what he originally wanted to make. Obviously the landscapes change. It would now have to fit into this larger machinery. But if they let him make a sort of

period stylized Fantastic Four movie, which I think at this point the only way they could really work Fantastic Four into the Marvel Universe this late in the game is to do a different time period, to do an alternate dimension. Alternate dimension, they get sucked into our dimension or something. I don't know. You do a period movie and then they're people out of time.

I don't know. But that's what I would love if you did a real kind of like. I mean, give it to Peyton Reed. In like Flint kind of. I think Peyton Reed is the. I have to assume he's at least mentioned to Kevin Feige like one day if you want to do

Fantastic Four I'm here I'm a proven guy for you you know yeah that's I think the end game here so

what's your answer with Tim Burton my answer I think Deadman I think Deadman would be a cool thing I'd rather see him pick something like that

that doesn't come with a tremendous amount of cultural baggage you know where there isn't a real strong preconceived notion of like, well, I know what the regular Dumbo's like. Ben, you got one? You got a Tim Burton

franchise flipper? Is there a Rave franchise? I'm sorry, a Rave? A Rave movie? Do you just want like Tank Girl? Or something like that? Tim Burton's Tank Girl? I'm just trying to think of subcultures from the 90s that I would be interested to see Do you just want like Tank Girl or something? Oh, yeah. Like something like that. Tim Burton's Tank Girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right. I'm just trying to think of subcultures from the 90s that I would be interested to see Tim Burton have a take on. Oh, I see. Like a grave culture. I hear he's going to reboot the singles universe. That'd be fun. People making video. Matt Dillon is coming back.

His only on-screen acting appearance. Was that? He plays in singles the guy who runs the video dating service Tim Burton does correct right

I have to leave he did that without the internet I know well we have done we did do a singles episode which I do have to leave so

we're done we're done let's play the box office game oh by the way so we've heard all the pitches Tim Burton's singles right Tim Burton's dead man yeah Tim Burton's Dead Man.

Tim Burton's Space 1999. Yes, obvious winner. Folks listening within the sound of my voice, get ready for Tim Burton's Space 1999. Greenlit in the room, absolutely going to happen. Wow, that's the winner. Absolutely. I'm sorry. You forgot to mention in the introduction that you have ultimate greenlight power in Hollywood.

Oh yeah, that's true. Well, when people find out that I agented Bruce Campbell's book, they're like, let's not second guess this guy again. What was the widest this film ever went? The widest this film ever went was 623 theaters. It made a total of $5.8 million. Yeah. So obviously it did not make its budget back. Did not cross over.

No, it didn't cross over. Also just weird to think about Disney making a film like this today. It's crazy to think about Touchstone back in the day. Yeah. The weekend of September 30th, it opened the New York Film Festival and it just came out in theaters. Yeah. It opened on two screens this weekend. So it's not in the top five.

So your number one movie is a movie that I truly appreciate and love. Yeah. It opened on two screens this weekend, so it's not in the top five. So your number one movie is a movie that I truly appreciate and love. It is a kind of like a white knuckle thriller slash domestic drama starring an Oscar winning person. A lady or a gentleman? Lady. I was trying not to give you a lady. River Wild. Yeah, because I knew if I said lady, you would just know. I was trying not to give you a lady. River Wild. Yeah, because I knew if I said lady,

you would just know. I had a feeling it was River Wild. $10.2 million. With Law & Order's Benjamin Bratt. Yes. Bratt, Bacon, Strathairn. Strathairn. It's got, what a cast. Curtis Hanson picture.

I always love when Strathairn's above the title. He's above it. What a good name to put above a title. Is it Strathairn? I don't know. I believe so. David Strathairn, that's how I say it. I think that name is fun to read, fun to say. Is it Strathairn? I don't know. I believe so. David Strathairn. That's how I say it.

I think that name is fun to read, fun to say. I have a great time every time I say Strathairn. Fun to watch. Fun to watch. A real actor's actor. An actor's actor is actor. Actors love Strathairn. Sure, who wouldn't?

It's royalty. He's the Strathairniest of them all. Now, number two at the box office was number one the previous two weeks. It's a sci-fi actioner. Oh, wow. That I enjoy. It's an enjoyable piece of 90s marginalia. Did it get any sequels?

It must have. It didn't get any theater sequels. It didn't become a big franchise. There must be some straight to VOD like I don't know maybe not it's Nintendo for sci-fi based on a comic book

I believe from you know a director that we've covered one of his movies we've covered one of this director's movies there was a directed TV DVD sequel starring Jason

Scott Lee with the subtitle the Berlin decision and you'd be bad at this job you'd be so bad at it I'd be bad at this job I'd be TV DVD sequel starring Jason Scott Lee with the subtitle The Berlin Decision. And you'd be bad at this job. You'd be so bad at it. I'd be bad at this job. Tank Girl? No, it remains the highest grossing film for this actor

who is like a 90s star and was on Amazon at one point. Oh, it's a Jean-Claude Van Damme film. That's true. Oh, I know it. What is it? Time Cop? That's right. one point oh it's a john claude van damme film that's true oh i know it what is it time cop that's right i would be very bad at that

peter hyams is time cop and peter hyams of course directed uh running scared running scared yes now number three is a film i did not know of saw time cop in the theater also

the chelsea so let me use it the chelsea time cop's not bad ron silver not bad ron silver right that's a big silver yeah uh so this was gold this is a film i've never heard of apparently it is an erotic drama how dare you pitch right i dared right at african-american audiences erotic drama pitch right at african-america are you being sarcastic no is it really i am not being

sarcastic it was a Gramercy picture which I think was an old Universal like label yeah yeah uh starring Jada Pinkett, Bokeem Woodbine, Alan Payne I've never heard of this movie it was fairly well received it came out it made 20 million dollars Bokeem Woodbine another name that is fun to say fun to read absolutely electric pleasure to watch on screen. Yeah I love him. This was like well received. I've never heard of it. I don't think I have heard of it. And it really is one of those things. This is a year of my

23rd year on earth. You were hot. This is prime hot. I can't believe. I should have known this. I didn't have children. I was going to movies all the time. So I was basically living at the Chelsea Theater. It's set in Houston. Does that help? I don't think I know this Theater. It's set in Houston. Does that help? I don't think I know this one. It's just sort of amazing to think of studios

like bothering to make all kinds of movies back then. They would try shit. Right, yes. Let's say it's called Jason's Lyric. Oh, I do know that title. I have no idea what that movie was, but I knew that title. So there you go.

Number four is the Best Picture winner of 1994. So it's Forrest Gump? Yes. Still going strong? Still going strong in his 13th week. It's made $269 million. My sister Romley watched that movie for the first time

and very recently was like, what the fuck is that thing? It is one of those things where you're like, I can't explain it but everyone was crazy for this thing. It was fun at the time. Four quadrant blockbuster. You watch it now and you're like is this offensive

like it's not just where you're like I don't get the appeal of this you're like I think this movie is just nakedly offensive but she was like

she was like I don't even know if that's good or bad can you just explain to me how that fits into the history of our culture of our species

what was that it's like the ultimate baby boomer movie but also it's this offensive comedy I don't know. Anyway, Forrest Gump. What do you think of Forrest Gump, Jason? John.

John Huntsman, I guess. Oh, Jason's lyric. That's why it was. Yeah. I don't know what Jason's lyric made of Forrest Gump. I have not seen it since it came out. Wow. And I remember being a little turned off. Well, I was turned off by its political point of view.

Sure. Hippies are bad? Yeah. Hippies are bad. Yeah. Yeah. That promiscuous sex will end, you know, you'll end up in the coffin or whatever. What a fucking weird movie.

Very weird movie. Very weird movie. But I love Tom Hanks so much. I do too. Number five is another of the best picture nominees a great movie about how wasps run and ruin the world Quisha?

yes love Quisha Quisha Robert Redford's Quisha starring Ralph Fiennes John Turturro

and the other guy the guy from Northern Exposure who's doing that bad Boston accent Rob Morrow Rob Morrow whose daughter's name is?

I don't know Robba? Two his daughter's name is? I don't know. Two. Robba? Two. His daughter's name is Two Morrow. I swear to you, his daughter's name is Two Morrow. T-O? T-U, I believe.

That's one of those things that it feels like you have been waiting four years on this podcast for someone to mention Rob Morrow. You had that fact ready. I knew that fact before I knew who Rob Morrow was. They do have a daughter named Two. My wife grew up in Atlanta in elementary school. They had a fifth, fourth grade. They had a classmate, son of the local police chief, Chief Hand.

His son's name was Dixon. Oh, boy. Guess how they made fun of him. Guess what his nickname was uh dixon hand i'm trying to think of how you could work that into something yeah i know it's crazy right right they they were two they didn't even recognize the joke really they called him jupiter largest of the planets because he was husky oh boy they were two it was right there couldn't they couldn't get themselves they couldn't bring themselves to make a Dixon hand joke. Wow.

Well, talking about Dix, you got a TV show called Dicktown. Oh. I'm not sure that... When will that be? Will that still be far off on the horizon? Animation takes a long time. I mean, we're told sometime in the spring of 2019. So it'll be.

Okay. So there is a show that I'm working with, David Reese. Past and future guest. We've got to get him back on. An animated show for FXX. Maybe by this time, FXXXXX. Maybe. They might add a few more X's.

I don't know it's a fun little show and some great voice acting by Griffin Newman oh you're in that one huh you snuck your little you snuck your little voice on there snuck my little tush on that show

and if this is the plug portion you can also listen to me every week Judge John Hodgman a podcast from MaximumFun.org and you can buy my book Vacationationland, now available in paperback, at stores. Don't go to libraries. I hadn't heard that it had been released in paperback.

I feel like you haven't been getting the word out about that. You can go to libraries and you can take it out of the library too. That's fine. As long as you keep it. Yeah. Right. We have a deal. Here's the thing.

It's a special bonus. We've got to arrange with the publisher. If you buy the book, it frees you from the obligation to read it. So that's a good deal for you. Oh, I see. Right. You can just buy it. There's no ticking clock.

If you borrow it from the library, you've got to read it. That's how you pay. I like the idea of you using your million-plus social media followers to just fully take down the American library. You're just like, this is my battle you know i really liked john hodgman until that turn he took later no i love libraries just kidding you know libraries there was such precarious ground and hodgman put his pressure on and that was all it took we were gone throw a molotov cocktail to your local library, remember to sign it from John Hodgman.

I waved a withered feather at their back and they fell over the cliff. I do take responsibility. In England, like King Edward IV, he kind of like, he took all the monasteries.

Edward VI, sorry, not IV. You want to be that, but for libraries. How would you know anything about England? Oh, get out of here. Come on now. Right at the end, King Edward VI. Thank you all for listening. Right at the end. Yes. King Edward VI.

Thank you all for listening. Basically started the English education system. Please remember to review, subscribe, go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. Thanks to Antford Goodo for our social media. Lane Montgomery for a theme song. Joe Bonpet rounds for artwork. Season two of The Tick. Some coming out at some point.

Cannot wait. If you like this episode, it's like that for 10 episodes of a TV show. Extra nipples. Extra nipples extra nipples spoiler a lot of nips nefarious Dr. Nipslip yeah tune in next week

for our what's next week Mars Attacks oh yeah Paul F. Tompkins yeah Paul F. Tompkins is not welcome he will not be on the show

right exactly terrible so tune in to see who we have as a guest on In His Place. Right, right. Next week. And as always, I forgot to say this to Mace.

He's on the films of Timber and it's called Power and Scissorcast.