Blank Check with Griffin & David - Fargo with Zach Cregger

Episode Date: August 17, 2025

Did we get the director of Weapons, another “true story,” on our Fargo episode? You betcha. Zach Cregger joins the Blank Check crew to discuss the Coens’ 1996 masterpiece and we’re going SCENE BY SCENE dissecting this perfect movie. “Minnesota nice,” “Dark Marge,” the Mike Yanagita scene, the origins of Jerry’s overwhelming debt, the inner life of Gaear Grimsrud, and the operatic score are just a few of the topics discussed. Did you know that Ben Hosley’s first car was an Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera? YOOU BETCHA. Note: This episode was recorded before we saw Weapons, so no spoilers here.  Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your  pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So blank check with Griffin and David Blank Jack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show was blank check So that was Mrs. Lundegarde in the floor in there And I guess that was your accomplice in the Woodchipper And those three people in Brainerd

and for what for a little bit of podcasting there's more to life than a little podcast you know I feel like I went a little to Dennis Farino sure yeah well yeah you were about to order I went full Chicago order a deep dish I was gonna dip my beef sandwich

yeah too many lines I can think of I am at the point with this movie and our guest can speak up if he agrees you please just start talking kind of you to give him permission to talk where there's lines where i'm like iconic line from fargo that i think are just normal expository lines but like i've watched the movie so many times at this point that like prowler needs a jump is one of my favorite lines from fargo yeah i'm not gonna make sense oh absolutely i'm not gonna say we need to like fully han yeah

prowler needs a jump i just like that's funny to me i mean yeah and it's supposed to be funny but like To me, that's like, fucking, you know, Dalton Trumbo wrote that. So to this point, well, let's check to see if the keys on the typewriter are wet or not. Let's not accuse Dalton Trumbo. He's been accused of a lot of things in his time. I'm not looking to build the canon here. We've covered a lot of great movies on the show. Ten years, a decade of dreams.

I do think there is a pretty limited canon of, like, perfect movies. In the history of cinema. But especially within the limited range of what we've covered in the last 10 years. And a lot of that is like a lot of movies that I think are masterpieces have like wooliness or weirdness that I love that works for me, you know? But this like this is a rare movie where you're like there's not a hair out of place. And to that end, even like just sort of shoe leather dialogue is so specifically honed in on character and then so nailed in performance that then the rhythm of it. it feels like, well, that's like an iconic thing. The fourth time she says, yeah.

He's fleeing the interview. Yeah. He's fleeing the interview. Yeah. It's true. Every line in this is a quotable line. Kind of like Big Lobowski has that. You could pick any line.

You throw a dart at the board, and it's kind of, you can hear it if you read it. You know, it's like tattooed in the mind, and this movie does that. You know, I was watching it again last night, and I was thinking about how perfect this movie was. And I was looking. I was like, is there a hair on the head of this movie that? I would change. And I have one moment. Yeah. And I don't even think it's wrong. It's not broken. It's great. But it's a weird, there's a weird moment in this movie that I locked in on this time. And I've seen this movie a thousand times. And it's more of just a question. And I wonder if you guys have the same issue. May I? Is this okay? No, no. I love it. I'm just trying to think of you being like, I just don't like that lady who played the cop. I just thought she was kind of off. She talks too much. What's with all their accents? No, but there's a moment where we dissolve from

Steve Bishammy's pounding on the TV. He's like, fuck, fuck, fuck! And then we go to the hard cut We dissolve to the screen, we have the bugs on the screen, and we pull out, and we realize that Marge and her husband are watching TV at night, and, you know, she says, time to turn in, and he kind of wakes up, and then we do a dissolve to black,

and then we fade up in the phone rings, and it's Mike Yanigida. And I was just wondering, I was like, why do we go from a scene with them in bed to a scene with them in bed with this dissolve in the middle? And she answers. And I was like, I wonder if they were hedging their bets that maybe they would cut the Mike Yanigita out. Like maybe they were nervous that like this storyline may not work. It's a risk. Sure. We got the sexy transition that we love like because they could easily cut straight to the Mike Yanigita phone call. They didn't have to do that cool TV. This is what happens when you've been shipping for 100 viewings where you start to just be like

Is there? Right. Like, you know, you've gone so deep. I know what you're saying. I mean, we're also going to spend 40 minutes on Mike Yanigida. Yeah. We spend one hour. We have to go deep into Mike Yankegee.

We have to go deep. I just saw him, Steve Park, right? The actor's name. In the Phoenician scheme, literally two hours ago. It feels like it is having a bit of a renaissance again. Because Westlickson. And we'll talk about it for an hour. I'm going to pin that to the board.

Sure. But that scene in and of itself is a thing that I, feel like for a long time people were like, why is this fucking in here? What is this? I think it's the crucial turning point of Margeta's character. Yes.

It's obviously a vital scene. It is the scene in the movie. But I was, I watched it last night, and then almost immediately, after finishing it, I was like, am I going to fucking put this back on and watch this again? Because I had the impulse to watch it, or at least scrub through, and study,

when do they do the fade to black? They do it. Are you joking? You had that same thought about that exact. same fade to black and why? Not that one, but I got kind of stuck on, not like it in a, it was bumping on. They do. There's one right at the start of the movie. Right. I was like, okay, they're like five or six of them. Right. And is there any pattern I can discern as to when they fade to black as opposed to like cross dissolve or just hard cut? And then I was like, this is the

kind of shit that they mock when people try to write essays about like why they made the editing choices. They still care about it. They do. And they're still so precise and intentional. Absolutely. It's worth exploring this and wringing your hands about this sorts of things because they're that meticulous. This is the fascinating thing about them is I'm sure if you ask them, they would say, it just felt right. Sure.

We just got in the room and it just felt like a rhythm and energy thing. And yet, everything in their movies is so perfectly placed and so precise and so controlled, as you said, and feels so meaningful that you're like, there has to be something for me to solve here. Right. Right. I guess, right, you get to, well, eventually get to serious man where the movie is almost built around, right. Mike Kennedy, are telling you to accept the mystery. Yeah. Same act.

Yeah. Fargo is the film, but what's the podcast? This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. David. Wow. Who's David? You're just saying a word.

You betcha I'm David. Okay. I don't know. It's a podcast about filmography, his directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby so when the uh sex worker is riding the second the escort the second one is riding uh carl yeah the shemmy trying to give him to ring the bell i hear bells i'm like did the coens write that it is such an odd line i love it to be clear or did she go like you know what you know like like were they like what would you know i think it has to

be right i think they write everything and i'm sure yeah i don't think there's that there's that story that that here's, oh my god. Storemare. Yeah, right. Jesus Christ, that would have been bad. He tells that story about he's shooting that scene and he and he thought there was a typo in the script for the where is pancake?

Where is pancake house? He changed it on take one. He goes, where's the pancake house? And like, Joel came up and was like, hey, it says where's pancakes house? Yes. Yeah, like that's, they are that specific. And to that point, where do you hear bells? I just like, imagine having sex with someone and they go, I hear bells.

Sorry, go on. Or worse than that is, where are you? Where are you? It's so emasculating. Where are you? Jesus. Blameych Macy has said that like, every single stammer is written in that way.

Like there's no sort of like riffing on the run up. There was something he improb that they let in. And I cannot remember what it is. I'll find it. But yes, I hear bells, it feels like that has to be something they heard happened to someone they knew that they never forgot and joked about internally

and we're gonna like we're gonna put that in a movie someday. Right, right, right, right. It doesn't seem like the guys who like hang out with their buddies and talk about like sex stories. No.

No. No, you know what it feels like? It feels like they overheard a stranger say that at a bar. One of the few instances talking to his buddies. Is that they, he kept calling the sienna

burnt umber, which was not in the script, but the Coens were amused and let that in. Because Macy's a, he's like a theater rascal. He likes to, you know, ad lib. Yeah. He also did the doodles.

He was just doodling. I know that. And they were like, oh, that's funny. Right. That was him in between setups, just making those sort of like weird geometric patterns. That's awesome. Yeah. Listen.

Master's Cassius were on the career series of blank checks and crazy passion projects. This is their first clear. This is their first unqualified. Right? Like this movie was a hit. This is their first. first movie that didn't lose money, they are a rare case of a snapshot. Raising Arizona lost money?

I don't think so. Let's look it up. No. Well, it's simple couldn't have lost money, right? Racing Arizona cost $5 million and made like 30 worldwide. Okay. I think that movie is their first clear. Fair enough.

Yeah. But like, right, Barton Fink, Miller's Crossing, Hudsucker all made less than they cost. But two of those three were like critically adored. Yes. And it was like, these guys have the goods. We have to keep letting them do their thing. And this obviously breaks through on a whole other level.

Of course, this is their 1996 film Fargo, which is based on the popular FX series. They made an interesting choice at this point in their career to adapt a TV show to film. Yes, of course. They love the TV show, I'm told. They love it. I don't know. I'm sure they have never seen. I am also sure.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not even saying on a director. way. I'm just sure they're kind of like, oh, okay. Right. When the show was announced, there was this sort of like, and the Coens gave it their blessing. And then later it came out that they were like, yeah, we don't care. If you want to do a show, that's fine. Right. Not that they were dismissive, but they were just like, we made the movie. You do whatever you want. Um, because there's also the weird fucking sitcom pilot. Was that a sitcom? Argo. 80 Falco. I guess it was. No, it was like a crime show.

A comedy procedural. There was like an NBC pilot. directed by Kathy Bates with E.D. Falco playing Marge Gunderson. Yeah. Really? In the 90s, like a year or two after Fargo. No, no, no. Well, oh, yeah. It was in the 90s, right?

It actually aired in the 2000s as part of like a brilliant, but canceled. Right, yes. And wait, Kathy Bates was in this. So I guess Cassie Bates did work with the Cohen brothers. She directed it. No, thank you. Zach, thank you for bringing that up. And you should introduce, I guess.

This is additional ammunition to the idea that there's some quiet feud between Kathy Bates and the Cohen's. She didn't do the dishes. She directed. the pilot that they had no involvement in. It almost feels vindictive that she's like, I'll make my Fargo. You guys don't have the rights. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's, I've never seen it, the, um, the Ed Falco thing.

Have you ever seen it? I've not seen it there. She's pregnant in it, I know, which is sort of funny. Yeah, like, they're like, she's pregnant again. Yeah, right. Was she going to be pregnant for five seasons? Yeah, I don't know. Um, we're talking Fargo.

Our guest today is the great filmmaker. the director of Barbarian Yeah The upcoming weapons Which will be coming out Right around the time of this episode Well so this episode drops Zach on

Let's see August 17th So those weapons just come out It will be out for a week and change Wow well you know what We did a pretty good job mind Weapons Zach Kragor Thank you for

Thank you for having Sorry for yelling weapons I love this show so I'm really excited It's very kind of you to say That's really sick It's disgusting I mean that's the kind of depraved shit that the director of weapons would say,

I love blank check. We met last summer and you said that to me and I said that's stupid and your response was why do you think that's stupid? I appreciated you like being like

you have a show that people like. I don't understand why you're immediately turning this into an insult to me and a self-put-down. You like cut through it very quickly. But It has been a dream to have you on since then. We have a mutual friend, Leslie Headland.

Yes, we do. I said, we're doing the Coins. I feel like this might be a moment to ask Zach, texted you, and you and Leslie both locked into the same two movies. Right, sort of fighting over him, essentially. Yeah. I wanted Fargo because this is quite arguably my favorite movie of all time. And I think she might feel similarly.

And you guys had offered me no country, which is also what an amazing uh i mean it's an honor i you know whatever but uh i don't know i just i love i wanted bargo really bad i didn't know if if she cared as much as i cared and so we we had kind of a little round and round about uh who got what but uh she was very cool to give me to give me this look it's also it's a win win it's like two masterpieces yeah i could see both of you being good on both episodes um it's funny that leslie was like i feel like you should just take the classier movie and i was like which one is classier than the other they're both very classic i think no country is classier in that it well one best picture it's an adaptation of a sort of a novel from a

great american novelist so it's like maybe mildly quote unquote classier this movie has a lot of minnesota accents in it and stuff like it's like a little goofier you had just worked with josh brolin of course in weapons so you were sort of like well that would be interesting to talk about but he's not in fargo is that right he's not I don't think so. I mean, maybe he played the big statue of Paul Bunyan, I don't know. There's a bit of resemblance. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But you have worked with Mr. Brolin, who, of course, is a Cohen's fave. But is this kind of your, like, default gun-to-your-head favorite movie? It would be, like, a coin toss between this and Boogie Nights. Okay. A year apart. So it just goes to show, you know, 16, 17, when these movies came out, it's like my formative, you know, film buff years or whatever I'm trying to say.

So, yeah, these both hit me in the sweet spot and made a mark. Barbarian, it's a phenomenal movie. It kind of blew me away when I saw it in theaters. And it felt like had this mini phenomenon of people being like, where the fuck did this come from? Like, it felt like the movie just came out of nowhere. And I really enjoyed the party trick

of telling people when they were like, have you seen Barbarian that thing, rules, responding with, like, you know that was directed by one of the whitest kids you know, which people could not believe, but you have this arc of, like, right, but, but no, but like in a cool way, and I also think there's this weird cultural thing of like a sketch comedy to a horror movie pipeline that seems to be growing, but you also go to. There's two examples. Is there more? I guess you got two examples. Kyle, uh, Mooney. Yeah, I'd say, I'd say that's, you made a horror movie. Okay. So now we're looking at four. Yeah, why not? Actually, yeah, show Walter should try a horror movie.

I'm trying to think about, like, who are big sketch legends now. Yeah. We could, that we could, who have transitioned to filmmaking. Chevy Chase should direct a horror movie. Oh, yeah, could you imagine. Great sketch comic, Chevy Chase. I know he was on, I know he was once a great sketch comic. But you all, that group formed from all of you guys going to film school together, right?

Well, we were in the same dorm together. Okay. So we went to different schools, but we all were in the same spillover dorm in Brooklyn. That, like, if you were laid on your housing application, you lived. in the St. George Hotel. So it just kind of attracted. You lived at the St. George Hotel? I lived in the St. Clark Street Station. You got it. I'm incredibly from a lot of it. That is so funny. How do I know? I'm a dork. I went to high school right by there. What's it like at the St. George Hotel? I always wondered every time. Well, it was different then. They've completely redone it now,

but it was so bizarre because it was just like animal house every night. But it used to be housing. And there were tenants that just never were evicted. So we'd be like drinking 40s and smoking blunts in the hallway, and then a 90-year-old would get off the elevator and walk sadly through the pot smoke into his room. I mean, can you imagine your 80-7? And they're like, we're turning this into a dormitory. It's just like, I can't imagine. And the guy's like, I don't give a shit. I pay 60 bucks a month. I'm never leaving. I live in Brooklyn Heights. I went to, I went to high school right by there. And I was always, like, fascinated by the exterior and how much it kind of looked like a Barton Fink Hotel. Like, it looked frozen in time. And I remember with my friend walking by and going

like, I need to know, is this like an expensive hotel? And I walked into the lobby. I mean, Marilyn Monroe stayed there. Right. It was once expensive. They shot the Godfather in the basement. And then they shot big in there. That scene where he's like in the hood and there's like gunshots and sirens and he's

afraid, you know? That's shot in there. Yeah, that's in the same joy. Right. I was like, this clearly looks like it used to be really fancy, but also looks so frozen in amber. I wonder how much it costs. So I walked in and was like, how much is a room as like a 14-year-old?

And whoever was at the desk was like, this is for college. students. Right, go away. And then I was so fascinated by, like, this has the outward appearance of a hotel, but also, like, rent-controlled senior citizens live there? Yeah. It has a crazy history of that place. It was, I heard it was in a quarantine zone for AIDS patients, and so a lot of people died in

there, like, in the 80s. And I know there were, like, it was a junkie, like a flop house shooting gallery at one point. And you used to walk by and there would be all these, like, bags on strings hanging out every window, which is where people would hide their heroin. It's had a crazy, and you know, in the glory days, it burned down and then it was built. This cannot be interesting

to any of your listeners. That's kind of fun. This is really good podcasting. Kind of cool lore. But you did not see Fargo in college. You saw it prior. You saw it in high school. Yeah, yeah, I saw it in high school. Did you see it in theaters? You're older than I. I did not see it in theaters. I don't believe I did. I don't think I did. I think I saw it on video, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, I would have been, I was

I think 12 when Fargo came out, I think you're a couple years older than me. Like, it was a little too young to be toddling over to Fargo in the theaters. Yeah. This was a major... I was 16 when it came out. Yeah.

You could have snuck in, I guess. Yeah. This was an early, like, DVD for me. Like, I bought this on DVD and rewatched it over and over and over again. Yeah. I feel like I had gotten so Cohen's pilled by the early 2000s that I remember watching this, seeing that it was going to play on cable.

and being like, oh, this is my big blind spot. Already knowing in a pre-no-country era that this was kind of considered their masterpiece? Yes. I also, you know, the Hallowell's film guide, which I think I brought up before, which is a gigantic textbook that doesn't exist anymore, but used to get published every year of every movie. And with ratings from zero to four stars, most movies hit zero. by a grumpy old fuck called Leslie Halloway, Hallowell.

He gave Fargo four stars. And he gave like one four stars a year or whatever. So I knew that Fargo was a big deal even when I was this little budding. It was an infamous Siskel and Ebert movie, too, that it was like a thing they both agreed on and were not only in agreement, but we're like advocating so hard and we're rapturous about it. There's the story I think maybe JJ put in the dossier of. of the two of them seeing the screening together and Ebert turned to Siskel and going like, this is why we do what we do.

And Ebert, like, in his initial review, I think, called it where he was like, this is one of the few perfect movies I've ever seen. And he, like, elevated it to his great movies list really early. But he just immediately was just like this, I have rarely seen a film that so successfully achieves its ambitions. I think it's really odd, though, that he didn't pick on that fade to black off of the TV.

Yeah, right. Well, that was kind of a hack. Yeah, keep your head on a swivel, though. I mean, Jesus. Films like Fargo or Why I Love the Movies is how his review ends. The thing I was going to say, that's kind of funny, is the first time I watched it when I'm like 14 or 15, I remember not being underwhelmed by it, but going like, yeah, that's like another Cohen Brothers movie. Wow, that's fucked up. It's so fucked up.

That's really awful. I basically have watched it once every two years since then, and every time I see it gets better. It is one of those rare movies. movies for me that because I haven't yet clocked the weirdness of that one fade to black, every time I'm like, I get it more and more. And there's something just, I think what threw me off when I was seeing it the first time and had been so hyped up in my mind is it is kind of very simple. It is such a like focused movie in a way.

And I'm always surprised by how short it is. Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, all their movies are short. I mean, by and large. uh it is it's an economical film it gets through a ton of plot it's a ploddy movie yeah in 98 minutes like it's uh and marge is not introduced until minute 30 and solves the case by an hour and 20 minutes um yeah it never feels rushed it feels like kind of moved in a lazy pace and i mean that in the best way you know like they're they're hanging out in bed talking about stamps you know

and you never you never feel it it's it's it's amazing yeah uh um Um, so Fargo is good. Yeah, and Zach's here to talk about it. It is, this is one of those movies. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm like, yeah, I don't know. We're not going to be like, Fargo is, my thing about Fargo is, it's actually bad. Like, no, Fargo is. But there is so much to debate about it, though.

Like, Dark Marge. Are we going to get into the Dark Marge? Zach, I don't know what you're talking about, but I want to know what you're talking about. Yeah. I don't really know it either. Okay, so do you guys, are you familiar? There's a, there's a podcast called, uh, no podcast for old men. Do you know about this?

No, but it sounds like the kind of thing that exists in the world. I'm surprised you don't. It's three philosophy professors. Oh, you know what? I have heard of this. Yeah, they go through the Coen Brothers filmography and each episode is two hours long

and they only talk about them from a philosophical standpoint and the greater themes of every movie. It's pretty fascinating. And they talk, they have a two-episode thing just for Fargo and they get into why they consider Marge to be a dark character. And I think even Ethan acknowledged

in an interview that he thinks of Marge as a dark character, which is really interesting because she's she's somewhat angelic in her sort of presentation and her behavior. So why is she dark? I must know more. I'm going to find out if there's more on this.

That she is like containing, that she is controlling a darkness within her? Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that there's a couple of approaches you could take to the Dark March theory. One is that she is, you know, if you look at this movie through the lens of deception, right? And that applies on a lot of different layers.

You know, the opening text, which I'm sure we're going to get into, is a lie, you know? Yes. And every character is kind of a liar. And Marge is not immune to that. You know, her, now, I don't, this is not my point of view, okay? But this is just me putting the Dark March theory out there, is that the Mike Yankeeda thing, she's just as complicit in the deceit as Mike Yankegee. That she kind of knows it's maybe a little out of pocket to get lunch with Mike Yanigita.

Like you think, like that she's no wide-eyed innocent. She's like, oh, she probably knows like, oh, Mike had a bit of a crush on me or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, sure. And you could even, you know, Mike tells her on the phone he's in the Twin Cities. Yeah. And then when that other cop comes, and I noticed it on this watch, that other cop says, you know, they made a call to a Shep Proudfoot in the Twin Cities.

And she's like, well, maybe I'll take a drive down there. And everybody is kind of surprised. Yeah. You're going to drive all the way to the Twin Cities. on the thinnest, on a phone call. And she's like, yeah. And it's like, we can infer that she's going because she wants to see Mike Yankeeda.

We can infer that. I'm not sure I do infer that to be quick. We could. Yeah, we could. And then she's also, you know, she's wearing a lot of makeup. She wants to go to a nice rest, because you want to look nice for him. She does want it to be reasonable, though.

She wants the Marriott to be, hey, is it reasonable? Yes. Mm-hmm. But it does feel like, right, there's something self-serving going on there, even if it's only I want. the confidence boost. The whole thing with Fargo is the Mike Yanagita scene.

Yes. Because the thing with Fargo is that it's perfect and the first time you watch it you're blown away by how dark it is and how funny it is the entire time

even though like horrible things are happening and all that you know and then just how visually striking it is. And so then you keep rewatching it and then you keep as you keep rewatching it being like Mike Yankeeda scenes weird.

Yeah. And then you realize like well no I see it's plot purpose. It helps her realize like that she was lied to it helps her you know sort of like in like shades like you know the deception and then you keep watching and then you're like okay but like she's a cop wouldn't she know you know then you start like asking you know becomes it is so interesting it's overly simple to read that scene as the mike yana

gita exchange makes her realize for the first time that people could be lying right where you're like no she's a fucking cop of course she knows that yeah i know of course she knows that because she is such a good cop. She is unfazed by these three dead bodies she finds. She has no problem getting on her hands and knees and examining the wounds from a completely professional clinical mindset. She's clearly done this a bunch of times. Yeah.

And so it's odd that they would put so much shoe leather in to be like, this is the moment she realizes that people can be bad. Right. People can lie. And it's like, what a wild thing to put into a hardened seasoned gum shoe. You know, it's crazy. But it works. So here, I was going down some rabbit holes in theories.

I didn't find the Dark March theory. Also, I feel embarrassed that there's a podcast called No Podcasts for Old Men and our miniseries, no pod country for old cast. Whatever. Who gives a shit? Fuck me. Thank you. Sorry, I did the ice thing. You're doing the ice thing, Ben.

It might be time to take away the cup. No, I love my ice. David loves chewing ice. No, if you're going to do it, I have to say it. Sorry. I'm trying not to bite my nails. No, no, what was the theory? It almost feels like a thing a character would do

in a Cohen Brothers movie during a dramatic scene is keep chewing ice and have Skip Leavesay just crank the audio up. Skip Leavesay, hit that ice hard. The king. I was going down different Marge

and Mike Yannigida readings. And one reading I saw that was interesting was they were saying it's basically the inversion of the scene you have in most noir's where a male hard-boiled detective who is hyper cynical on the outside, meets with a random woman, gets engaged in like a romantic liaison with her, and in the process, uncovers something about the crime that

shows how good he is at sussing out information, right? And this is like a complete flip of that where it's like a non-sexual encounter, right? This encounter of like weird deep awkwardness and emotion in history where nothing physical happens. That's all about long. and like unrequieted love, but also perhaps this like desire to be seen as desirable, and that it gives her this lesson that is not directly related

to the crime she's trying to solve is more just a philosophical reawakening of like, right, I should take a second look at this and not trust what people are saying, which like it is that simple, but also that's not giving the character enough credit. And then the thing I read, which I think I'd never heard before,

is that scene was not a, originally in the script, obviously because Francis McDormann is married to Joel Cohen and is more involved in the development of these movies and is probably hearing about them as they're going along and knew that they were designing this character for her, said at some point, I don't know if it was reading a finished script for the first time, or if she was reading scenes as it went along, said, can you please give me a scene that can help me define my character that isn't me on the case or with my husband? Right.

She said there were only two modes I have in this movie. Right. It is either me in cop mode or me in wife mode, and I need you to give me one scene of additional context to show me relating to someone else to help me solve what this character is. And that was the scene they wrote. And then she said, like, when I read it, I was perplexed. I, like, didn't get it. I didn't get why this is what they wrote and I couldn't make sense of the behavior in the scene.

And her biggest thing was, and not that it was written differently, but, like, I want to avoid the temptation of letting this character be too saintly by being too considerate of his emotions in this scene that the firmness she shows and kind of putting down the lines of going like I'd feel more comfortable if you were sitting on the other side

but even just the energy as she's receiving everything he's saying she was like I can't just be like Mama Earth which makes I get that yeah I don't know that's interesting it does yeah I don't know I don't know Zach what do you you think? Do you think Marge is dark, dark Marge? Is she going to join the Dark Avengers?

I don't think she's dark. I think I can't really embrace the Dark March theory. And I don't know if I've articulated it correctly at all. Like, I think there might be a more, a more kind of complex thing behind Dark Marge that I'm completely missing here. But, um, but what I love about the Mike Yanagita scene, it's kind of what you just hinted on is that she is writing this really delicate line of like am i in cop mode am i in person mode right you know he is making this inappropriate advance and i'm going to keep my minnesota nice kind of demeanor here but i'm also going to be firm and keep my it was there's just so many things happening with her in that scene and it's so funny it's just that scene is a masterpiece because there's so many there's so many layers happening

it works on so many levels and it's so fucking funny mike mike an incredible performance it's so funny I everything I've read about there's a big interview with C. Park that you can read there's an entertainment weekly or something

where he was like I was convinced the scene would get cut because it has nothing to do sensibly with the movie and then Ethan Cohen called him

and was like you're seeing like crushes you know everyone laughs and C. Park was like well I was playing him as like this incredibly

tragic person but like it is a very funny like cringgy uncomfortable like I do think it's in this dark

Very funny, but nonetheless, dark movie. It is an interesting little breathing point. Yes. And that's probably another reason they were like, yeah, it functions. Like, don't take it out. Like, keep the Yanigita scene. I don't know if this is their best movie. It is certainly in that top tier for me.

They have made a handful of five-star masterpieces in my mind. But this does feel like the ultimate Cohen's film in the same way we were saying in our blue velvet episode. Like, that's not my favorite Lynch movie, but it is the movie that is the best encapsulation. at the right point in the bell curve of the development of power where you're just like this is every single thing

they do well every theme they find interesting the holding of like all the tones at the same time there's some interview I totally agree obsessed with where Ethan Cohen you know whenever people ask them

like what's your directing style or how do you work with actors and there's some interview I got to find where Ethan Cohen says like I've never consciously directed an actor in my life we like don't talk subtext with them we write the script If we give them notes, they're technical about just like what we need to do to get the take to work or whatever.

And he said, over time and being asked that question so many times, the best answer I've ever come to is that directing is about tone management. And I think about that so much. And this movie is like the greatest study in that where you're like every scene is holding like three tones that should not be able to coexist. And they've made great films where the power is that they're able to successfully navigate the transition. in tone from scene to scene but the like combination of putting the Minnesota nice with the sort of like

deep darkness of man noir means that they're doing that tonal balance of like just what we're talking in the Mike Yamagita scene where you're just like how can it be like these things simultaneously how can it be like this funny

and upsetting and confusing and clarifying I mean not to toot Zach's horn but you made a scary movie that was funny yes but not funny in like whatever you know like not a parody scary. Like, you made a movie where I was laughing the entire time. I don't know if you're

going for me laughing almost the entire time with Barbarian, but, like, it is a movie with a lot of humor in it without sacrificing any of the darkness. And I think the humor similarly stems from really drilling into, like, the bizarreness of human behavior. Yeah, so how'd you do that, big jerk? One of the things that it kind of personalizes what the comments are doing and thank you for that couple. I'll say thank you, thank you. Is, you know, the Paul Bunyan shot where it's like underlit

and Paul Bunyan, the big statue looks like demonic, you know? And it's that one shot is kind of like the perfect encapsulation of everything they're doing in this movie where it's like this, first of all, it's crystallizing the location.

You know, all of their movies are so location dependent. It's kind of amazing. And this one is almost the most. And then it's this, it's this big kind of joy joyful thing, and they light it and shoot it like the scariest fucking thing you've ever seen. With the fucking Carter Burwell score.

The Carter Burwell score is maybe his best score. It's so amazing. But like even when Carter Burwell does comedies or has like branched out. Fucking bagpipes on that thing. I just think he, there is always something ominous underneath any piece of music he has ever written. He does have a bit of a, yeah, sure, like a, what's gothic kind of like like. Like, he's the best, Carter Burwell, such a sweetie pie, too. And this movie, with all of the zaniness that's definitely in here, his score never really acknowledges any of it.

I mean, the closest the score gets to anything playful is when they're breaking into the house, you know, and he's shattering the back door. Yeah. And she's running into the bathroom. And it's like that, it's just that plucky doom, doom, doom, doom, that's like the buildup. That's the happiest we get, you know. I mean, that scene, the break in, the. kidnapping of her is the perfect encapsulation. We're like, that seems very scary and

very, very upsetting and funny the entire time. Yes. And I know it is the most trite observation in the world to say that Pargo is a black comedy, and nonetheless, I keep saying it, but it is the perfect black comedy. And I do think it was so transgressive, this

movie. People were just like, I can't believe how funny it is given that, like, people get murdered and families are sad. Yeah. There's something about that scene that has to be talked about. And by the way, Are we ever going to start at the beginning and go to the end? Or do we just go on the, and I'm sorry. We're jumping all around.

It's just so exciting to talk about. Well, I could wait until we get to that scene. There's a lot to say about how inept these guys are. First of all, Shep Proudfoot vouches for Gare, not Showalter, right? So he likes Peter Stormer. He does not know Showalter, which is really funny. Incredibly funny to imagine Shep and Gare hanging out. I could see it.

Not talking together and like grunted at each other and in jail. and we're like, you're all right. But it's just so amazing how fucking terrible these guys are at crime. Especially, like, every time I watch this movie, it blows my mind that Steve Ashemi knew they were going to, like, take this car,

abduct a woman, put her in the back seat, and drive out of town and he didn't have the forethought of, like, putting the tags on the car that he had. It's like, oh, I forgot to change the tags. It's just the tags when they get pulled over. You know, it's like that's the first thing you should

have done. They're terrible at crime. And then he wants to bribe the cop when he could have just shown him the tags. Okay, so all of that is just lunacy. But then the front door is open and yet he puts a ski mask on. He walks up the back porch and you can look out that door and see like seven other houses.

There's a million other houses, yes. They're not in the middle of nowhere. Of what he's doing. And then he smashes this giant play glass thing with a crowbar. It's got to be louder than a gunshot. It's just so such a lack of thought. It's wild. And I love it. It's just crazy how much these guys suck at what they're here to do.

It does feel like it is their single favorite thing to explore in movies is people who are so confident that they know how to pull off something that is incredibly complicated. Yeah. And it's usually crime. Right. But it's also just like anytime someone's like, I think I can figure this out. What trouble do you think Macy is in? Is he just underwater already in some other real estate speculation or whatever? Like, why does he are?

He needs so much money. And I love that they don't, they don't tell you. He's just like, I'm in trouble. Wow, I, I am not going to talk about that. You know, like. And it's like a 10% finder see on 750 is 75,000. That's not going to do it. No.

He owes this other guy. He's building this other guy out of 350,000. This is 1987. Yes. In Minnesota. Like, what have you done? How did you get in the hole like this? I love thinking about it.

I mean, it's one of the most effective single lines and screenwriting history in my mind, which is when. And the Hart-Pressnell character says they will never need for money. Oh, yeah. Right. It's a, you know, the names of the characters. Scottie and Scottie and Gene never have to work. Right.

It's so perfect because I think from that moment, you can extrapolate. Willie Mitch Macy has gotten in over his skis, basically, I assume, five years trying to figure out some big scheme to impress his father-in-law and be like, look how much money I made. Right. And the deeper he gets in the hole, the more he's. He doubles down and tries to find some other way to not only bail himself out, but get out ahead. And he just keeps falling deeper and deeper and deeper. And it's like that sentiment, which you just imagine he's been hearing things to this effect for so long, have gotten so deeply in his head. And yet, that guy's read on him is 100% correct.

Yeah. The most devastating thing is that he knows the guy knows he's got him pegged. Does anybody like Jerry? No, he sucks. He sucks, right? Does Gene and Scotty like Jerry? I don't think they do. I think they tolerate it.

I think Gene thinks he's all right. Scotty seemed kind of embarrassed by him. Yeah, although Scotty's like so into accordions. Yes. And another, that's an amazing poster. Unaddressed thing is that like the two things on his wall are a white snake poster and like an accordion poster. But the evidence that no one likes him is how quickly all of his customers are like, fuck you. Yeah.

And his coworker who's chewing the. burritos like he got extra tickets and he's like what the fuck are you talking that is what i think about that guy all the time that he won't even enter he's like why are you even asking but he's disgusted that jerry is asking for a gopher's ticket he is like a rare example of a guy who everyone in the universe feels comfortable big dog i'm gonna open the dossier now just being like you fucking yeah you definitely suck i'm gonna open the dossier now we can uh uh dig into the sort of genesis of this movie but uh i do think the um customers saying oh A fucking liar is the greatest, like, fuck in history.

The way, like, he's so polite. He's such a good Minnesota guy. He's being screwed over so plainly that he's like, I think I can call this guy a fucking liar. And so, but it's hard getting it a fucking liar. You see him decide to cut. Exactly. It's great. Before you open the dosset, can I throw out my big thought I had watching the movie last night?

It's not profound thought. It's a very, it's a very trite thought. Trailer needs a jump. What's your thought? I think if anything. thing this movie is about the difference between being nice and being a good person. Sure. Absolutely.

Of course. That's why that is why the setting is the setting. Right. That's like the core tension of the movie and that seems a perfect example where that guy is just like, I have been wronged. Right. And I'm trying to decide if I say fuck right now, does that make me a bad person? And it's like, no, it's impolite, but it's justified.

Right. Versus a bunch of people being very nice and polite and doing awful things. David? Yes. All summer, every summer, I'm on edge. I don't want to get burned. Just even 30 seconds of direct exposure, sunlight could get me burned. And there's very little I can do to prevent it, which is why I want to do everything I can to prevent getting burned by my wireless deal. Yeah, you don't want to just get burned by the sun. You also don't want to get burned by the wireless deal.

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payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time, new customer offer for first three months only, speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra, see MintMobile for details. So this film comes after the hud sucker proxy. Obviously, the hud sucker proxy was a bit of a failure for the cones. I don't know your take on the hud sucker proxies act. It's a great movie, in my opinion. It's one of their, there are only like two Cohn brothers movies that I don't necessarily fully connect with.

And I want to love the hudsucker proxy. I've probably seen it seven or eight times. I always start it. And I'm so dazzled in the beginning, and I always kind of fall off the bike at some point in the middle of that movie. What's the other one or two out of curiosity? The other one is, and I hate to do any sort of negative talk about any Cohen Brothers movie because their worst days is still really fascinating and worth, you know, study.

But, you know, lady killers, I have a hard time connected. I don't think anyone's really going to, like, wrinkle their nose at you saying the lady killers ain't the best. no um but re hud sucker i mean it's like this movie was not a conscious reaction to that they had already been writing it before they shot hud sucker uh the script was i think they're always just kind of like working on the next thing as their projects spool up but certainly post hud sucker it wasn't like other studios were saying you nailed it here's another 40 million dollars to make a big special effects driven comedy right fargo is according to the coens and i think this is basically true, like, their most realistic script

yet, like, it is contemporary-ish. It's like, right, slightly before. Blood Simple. Blood Simple's also contemporary. And it's also very simple. I mean, honestly, it's kind of their most blood-simply script. Yeah. Since Blood Simple.

Yes. And it feels like them sort of going back to what they were trying to do in that movie with the knowledge they've gained over the last time. Yeah, we want to use unembellished sets. We want to use relocations. and they did include this title card saying the film was based on a true story. They've sort of said a lot of things over that over the years. Yeah.

Obviously, this movie's not based on a true story. Supposedly somebody maybe died thinking it was based on a true story, which is the basis of the also not true movie, Kumiko the Treasure Hunter. Which is a great movie. Very cool movie. Just so conceptually smart. Have you ever seen that movie, Zach? I haven't.

I should. It's a good movie. fucking good, but it similarly is like, starts with the title card and this is based on a true story and then as a movie based on an urban legend about someone believing that Fargo was true

and looking for the bag of money. The Coens say they kind of heard tall tales essentially along those lines growing up in Minnesota of this kind of stuff. There are a couple stories

that are like little true crime newspaper clippings. But I think the Paul Bunyan stuff is like this is a tall tale like a little bit right like it's a modern tall tale. The stories that it seems to be riffing on feel very like

and I swear to God this happened to my cousin's friend kind of thing. They know and they do acknowledge it in one interview that like saying a movie is based on a true story locks the audience in in a weird sort of a way where the audience is not going to be like well this is fanciful or like that would never happened because they're like well they said it was based on a true story like so i also think they they post millers crossing and barton think are aware of the fact that eggheads are trying to overanaly

their movies you should do that in front of the resident evil movie you're doing zach you should start with like this is based on a true story umbrella is real and they're up to no good you should recut barbarian to have that in you should just make that like going forward all movies have this is based on what's right in weapons uh the first line of the movie is this is a true story Hell, yeah. There you go. So there have been lots of... But yes, I think, no, no, it's because the other incident, there was some

incident that the circumstances were very different, but of a guy hiring people to kidnap his wife, to make the ransom money back, all these things that were very loose inspirations, in a way that's sort of like Texas Chainsaw Massacre says it's based on a true story. And you're like, yeah, Ed Gain killed people. This is not really based on it. It's sort of a true crime movie. Right.

They consider Blood Simple to be more like a James M. Kane type, you know, noir thriller, right? Fargo, they wanted to be drier, less hard-boiled. But then obviously they are also, Blood Simple's a Texas movie. And this is about where they grew up. Of course, the movie is named after City, North Dakota, where almost none of the action happens. It is only the encounter at the bar at the beginning of the film. And they just like how Fargo sounds and they're right It's a great title for a movie right they were like brain nerds a bad title right Yeah, working title films had sort of co-produced Todd Sucker Proxy British production company and which it becomes one of their biggest Collaborators like Eric Felner They finance this film I think it costs about

seven million dollars like it was not like a mega production or anything like that look their movies are not losing massive amounts of money up until hud sucker and as you pointed out a couple of them made a little profit but our buddy alex ross perry was on big picture recently and was talking about this thing that's kind of disappeared from the american film industry which is like west anderson makes bottle rocket for like five million dollars at columbia and it bombs but it gets good reviews and people are like okay you only get 15 to make your next movie at Disney right this sense of like if there's innate talent and there's a voice and actors want to work with this person that people will keep kind of investing in you in the hopes that

it will pay out at some point which certainly like circle films had with them and working title had with them um many of the roles are written for the actors that play them mcdormand bishemi storm air um Had they worked with McDormand properly since raising Arizona? No, I'm bad at this. Is she in Miller's Crossing? I wish I forgot. She certainly hasn't done like a major role for them, basically since Blood Simple.

Yeah, no, she hasn't at all. Shemey's been in all of their movies. In small roles. Not all of them, but a lot of them, yes. Stormere, they wanted in Miller's Crossing? Yes. They grew up in Minnesota, they're very familiar with Minnesota Nice Culture, which is obviously something that I think was introduced to me and a lot of people via the movie Fargo, which we're discussing today. I think my exposure point was probably the 1996 movie Fargo.

Now, Zach, you're not from the Midwest, right? Where are you from? East Coast. Yeah, right. So you two possibly exposed to Minnesota nice type vibes, Swedish friendliness, weird, you know, all this through Fargo? Fair to say. Joel's quote about Marge being pregnant and wearing a puffy coat is like he's like, the sponginess is part of it.

Like, for men, it's so nice. Everyone's bouncing off of people. They kind of, like, we wanted her to kind of like talk funny and wear a funny hat and walk funny because she's pregnant, but not be a clown. Like, we wanted this kind of cliche cop, but she's a good cop. Like, she's good at her job and she's very competent. despite being this, like, cartoon nice lady. Like, like, the way she's, like, toddling around.

And then being like, ah, you know, like, to this, like, grisly, miserable murder scene. Right. And, like, it's not like they're, like, what, you know, those Swedish dramas about murder that are so popular. They're always like, oh, my God, murder in Sweden, this is so terrible, like, in a country where no one murders. They should sort of be saying that here, where they're, one would imagine is they're like, we don't see a lot of, like, insane murders here in fucking brainerd right but they're never like that they're more just kind of like oh boy you know but that

like speaks to this notion of a dark marge thing where it's like she this isn't her first day on the job even if this case the fucking ice cup I'm just drinking some water sorry I would say the audio says different

but you can tell that she has seen many murders and this is just her job and part of her demeanor is to sort of like cope with it and cover it, you know, and not like, I mean, we've talked about other movies, like, Manhunter is always the one I think about. Sure. Where that, for me, is a movie about a guy who's just, like, spent enough time in the darkness that he's actually never going to come out now.

Right. Man Hunter, I mean, Will Graham is like, I'm so good at understanding murderers that my head hurts. Right. And I'm past the point of no return. Like, I no longer know how to talk to my wife. The way McDormon puts it about Marge says, she says, there's something scary about March that's hard to articulate. She's simple and on the surface, but she's not naive. She's not innocent because she's good at her job, which gives her contact with crime and murder, but she has absolutely

no understanding of why people do the terrible things they do. Possibly she represents the certain feeling, which I think Joel and Ethan felt growing up in Minnesota. But like she does, she's sort of hinting it like, yeah, there's something kind of like inherently odd about this character. That might be the core of Dark Marge. Is this willful sort of lack of acknowledgement that Minnesota Nice has when Mars is looking at the windshield at the end of the movie she says

and it's a beautiful day and it is it is not a beautiful day it is like sleeting you feel like you're in Mongolia you know and it's like the worst day of all and so this just total like I'm just deciding to only see the positive everything is fine and it's an interesting

sort of dichotomy with her where she is unfazed by murder and yet she is you know ignoring the darkness that is clearly all around She is putting active work into trying to maintain some core belief in humanity. Here's my, I've seen Thorgo a million times, so I do not worry about Marge. Like, I know she's going to make it through the movie. And I probably always do that because she does feel indestructible.

But like, when you're with Marge in this movie, I would say, let's maybe put aside the Mike Yanigida scene. You're very comfortable. Like, them being in bed together is so comfortable. It is one of the healthiest marriages. You want to just crawl into that bed and just snuggle off with it. I've ever seen depicted. Gotta eat a breakfast is, you know, with her husband. I saw someone else call out, by the way.

That meeting Arby's together, like, you know, all their, like, usually you're just, like, very happy to be in her presence in this movie. Every scene they have together, they're either eating in bed or both. Yes, right. It is literally always some form of, like, comfort. And, like, I wonder about, like, watching this movie for the first time. Did you, did people have the kind of, like, Marge's, is she going to be okay? Like, she's, like, kind of moseying into this, like, awful thing.

Like, but I don't, I'm trying to imagine every feeling that she's terrible. Because she's pregnant, we know this. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, they're not going to do that. There is some sort of, like, fundamental, like, no. Like, she will. They're not allowed to kill the pregnant. Right.

It does bake innate sort of stakes into it. It does make your lizard brain sort of on guard. Like, you feel more worried about her, even though it's hard to think of a movie with a character being pregnant where you see the belly less in a way because as you said she's so bundled you know you're sort of aware of it but they're not constantly like showing you

her in the maternity pants or whatever and they only verbally acknowledge it I think twice in the whole movie when she says carrying quite a load here and I think maybe at the end when they say two more months but that's about it's right no one is ever like are you okay

Well, when Mike Yonagita hugs are too tight. She mentions it then. Bouchemy, obviously, is in a lot of their movies. In Miller's Crossing, is literally hired because they need a motor mouth. They need someone who can read dialogue fast. So they write this for him thinking, like, you will be the person who doesn't shut up. Yeah. He's also, and Ethan says this, he's the audience.

Yeah. Like, 100%. He's the one who basically reacts to everyone with like, what the fuck is the matter with you? To Jerry, to Grims, to Gare, to Harvey, Presnell when he meets him. Right. Like, he is an outsider and kind of an alien and, like, the only non-Minnesota. I mean, Gare is sort of, like, actually Swedish, I guess.

But, like, he kind of counts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although, Steve Bish, I mean, you do get the vibe that he is, if not from this neck of the woods, intimately familiar with these territories. He knows what to get laid? He definitely knows what to get laid.

And how. Yeah. William H. Macy is the only sort of star that was cast Like, you know, the way they are He reads for the deputy detective For Carl. Carl, is that his name? I'm not sure I don't know, Lou, Lou, sorry.

Not sure I agree with you 100% of your police work there, Lou. They like the audition And the Coens are like, that was funny. I mean, because William H. Macy at this point, I think is basically just kind of like... He's like a mammoth theater guy. He's a heater guy. He's on ER in like a big recurring role. He's a Chicago sort of semi-legent or whatever.

But he's not like a big movie actor. And at his audition, the Coins are like, you should read Jerry. Like, this was good. So they send him away and he comes back tomorrow. And he does his audition and they said, that's real good, thanks. And then he finds out that they're auditioning in New York still. So as he puts it, I got my jolly Lutheran ass on an airplane and walked in said, I want to read again because I'm scared you're going to screw this up and hire someone else.

He has said, I want to get his quote here. He said, I actually said that, you know, you can't play that card too often as an actor. Sometimes it just blows up in your face, but I said, guys, this is my role. I want this. I like his acknowledgment that most of the time people do those fucking gambits. It is like so beyond destructive and embarrassing to their careers. Right. Yeah.

Right. But you hear about the rare examples of. People shouldn't tell those stories because it emboldens people probably to act crazy. Right. Right. They had written the part as like a sort of slovenly guy. And with Macy, they're like, no, it's like a tightly wound performance essentially. That's wild.

They had conceived of this as like a sloven. Like a kind of overweight like loser. Yeah. That is insane. They also said, who would have been right for that? No one. The true coat scene where the guy calls him a fucking liar is an experience. and Cohen had essentially word for word.

Yes. Like buying a car in Minnesota. Right. And never forgot, clearly. Yeah. Harvey Presnell, who is so amazing in this movie and has a voice like a car engine. You said this in our Jurassic Park episode, but that the magic of that movie is any senior watching whoever's on screen at that moment you think is the best performance in the movie.

And Fargo's another one of those where every time I watch it, I'm like, who's my best supporting actor nominee? He's so good. And, like, some of the one-scene performances, I'm like, well, it's this guy. The thing with him is he is a sort of a Broadway legend and, like, a big singer. Yeah. And when you realize that about him, because then later in life, he was this kind of gravelly character after. I think this was his first movie in, like, 15 or 20 years?

I think it was a bit of a resurgence for him, because then he's in Saving Private Ryan. He has an incredible monologue in Saving Private Ryan. Yeah. And he does, right. Andy Barker, P.I, of course. Yeah, he was funny on that. He was very good on it. But, yeah, he does, like, 10 years of this.

Yes. Right, yeah. But I obviously mostly associate him with Fargo. But they had, they wrote that character, basically, when they were raising money for Blood Simple, they met lots of, like, Texas businessmen, you know, who were, like, sort of, like, sort of little petty kings. And this is what that character is.

Like, a guy who's, like, made a lot of money, but kind of in, like, his locality. Yeah. And so, yeah, Jerry's like, obviously the loser version of that. And this is, and then John Carroll Lynch, the great, great, great John Carol Lynch, they just loved his face. Yeah. He's so good. So they, talking about, like, the secret edge to Marge, the hidden edge, and McDormon, I just love this idea that McDormon felt comfortable enough to constantly push them to be like what's going on under the surface here.

which other actors, I think, kind of wouldn't. She was like, what's our backstory? And they were like, I don't know, you guys figure it out. And the thing they settled on was that they met on the force together. When they decide to get married, they were like, this is too dangerous for both of us. And he quit because she was a better cop. But so there's this thing about that backstory, though. That doesn't jive with Mike Yanigida.

Saying you married son of a gunnorson. Oh, you married old Norm son of a Gunderson. Like Mike knew Norm back in the day. I guess maybe they didn't meet on the force, but that they were both cops. I mean, they also said the coins were like, I don't know, whatever. If that makes you guys happier. But like the way they were playing internally was they both knew that she was the better cop. It would be absurd for her to retire even if she's the one who's pregnant.

Deacons Roger Deacons shoots this movie Absolutely went insane Yeah Just an incredible looking movie And yet coming off of Hudsucker in particular

I was watching Some of his commentary on this Yeah the DVD has a Deakin's commentary If you want it And his podcast now that he does with his wife Team Deacons is so fucking good This commentary was recorded like 25 years ago And it feels like he's not super comfortable

talking at length about stuff Sure. I thought that he's cagey, but it feels like he hasn't, whatever. But he did say, like, I read this script and it was just so fucking good and the characters are so good and they cast such good actors that I was like, I don't need to do anything fancy here. This location's interesting and you just watch it with the commentary and he keeps breaking down like, yeah, this is another scene where it's two setups total. Well, they initially told him we only want fixed shots. Yeah. Like you're doing nothing.

And then they realized like that's maybe a little too puritanical. But it is. do move the camera and like, you know, there's a little bit of stuff, but it's a pretty, like, in every scene, I was like, no coverage. What's the simplest way to cover this? And the only things I care about are like capturing the performance and the performance relative to their environment. As you were saying, Zach, it's like such a location movie that. And it's also, it's a thing that I find so fascinating about them and especially their work with deacons that they almost always, if not literally always, shoot inside of the conversation. You kind of never get over the shoulder stuff with the Coen's. You're always placed in between the people talking. Yeah. And that part of it is, I think Deacons talks about, you know, he came out of documentaries first and foremost.

And his school of thought for how meticulous he's able to, like, meticulously construct what feels like the perfect frame. He talks about it being a pretty organic process that for him, it's like figuring out how to do with the fewest number of lights possible, the fewest setups, the fewest setups. like simplify it. And he's like, my guiding principle is just like, what is the best place for the camera to be to capture what the actor's doing? Because he's used to that from documentaries of like, you might not get multiple setups.

You just need to be, have the right relationship to the subject in that moment. And so everything is just kind of like drilled down to like you want to be right there as if the person is kind of talking to you in the center of the space. Movies entirely location,

basically no sets at all. There's one bathroom set. That's it. and that's got to be the storm air shower curtain right where they're fucking things up that makes sense yeah um and uh you know uh they famously i feel like it's the most disgusting about this movie had no snow they had like a weird mild winter so they had to bring in a ton of artificial snow uh and then they had to like go to north dakota to to like shoot uh big exterior stuff because like they had to go find snow essentially deacon said the opening credits shot is one of the last things they shot because they finally had given up and we're like, we're not getting the snow we need we have to travel out and we'll get that last.

Yeah. Guys. Do you want to talk about Fargo? Yeah. Okay, great. What happens in Fargo? So, yes, opens with true story cards Yes. Then this negotiation between Macy and Stormer. I'm not going to debate you, Jerry. Sorry, that's such

a big deal here. And David, I feel like you wanted to slide past it, but I Heck, go ahead. 1987 is important. Yeah. I think that's important. Why do you think that's important? I don't disagree with you.

I think it's because it's about the end of the Reagan era. It's about the financial boom that is coming to an end here. But there's, you know, like the rugged individualism of Harvey Presley of the dad, right? Being like, there's my money. Like, I feel it all feels very 80s, very Reagan. Like, he's like, I'm this self-made, like, macho man, right? And, like, that's what Jerry wants to be. Yeah.

Also, not, look, Reagan was not a Minnesota guy. No, he sure wasn't. Was not his kind of persona in the way he, like, built off of his Hollywood history? I will trumpet Minnesota is the only state that did not vote for Ronald Reagan in either election. It's the only state. Pretty nice of them. That's wild. Isn't that crazy?

That's partly because Walter Mondale was from Minnesota. So he did win his home state. It was the only state he won. He swept 49 states. Reagan won 49 states and Walter Mondale won Minnesota and Washington, D.C. Wow. Yep. Reagan won by 18 points. It was a big win

for old running. Both times? No, for the second time. I just think it's interesting that this opening title card doesn't just say this is based on a true story. It gives the year. And then it says, if I remember correctly, you know, names have been changed to protect the

innocent and out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it's hurt. It's like, that is a little bit of of stating that of like, yeah, we barely wrote the thing. This is exactly what happened. It's awesome. And it's more convincing. It's like they did it perfectly.

But it's also, I mean, it's where like, I don't think this movie is even, like, incidentally based off of little snippets of news stories. As much as it is based on the idea of reading something like this in the paper and being like, that's so bizarre. Sure. That's the magic of truth. If you saw it in a movie. you'd be like, this is overwritten versus telling you this is real. You're like, I guess weird shit happens.

Yeah. You do hear that. You must have seen that clip of William H. Macy describing the moment he learned it wasn't. And he's on set. Like, he was already in production. Oh, yes.

They didn't tell anyone. Yeah. And he found out it wasn't based on a true story. And he goes up to the cones. He's like, you guys, this is not true? And they're like, no. He's like, you can't do that. And they're like, yeah, we can.

And it's just like, well, mucks. He goes, okay. It's just like There's nothing to be said, I guess Yeah, no one's gonna like find them It would get so deep in the process And and not know It would also just be like

You didn't like research the real guy But yet you feel betrayed by this Yeah You didn't want to meet anyone who knew Jerry London card You found no like supporting material To like look into No I was just gonna say there's something in the like I mean it's that fucking

The Phil Hartman Reagan sketch But there's something in, like, Reagan's public persona that does feel a little adjacent to the, like, Minnesota nice energy of this movie where this guy, like... Phoniness? Is that the word? Sure. Yeah. Like, right. Use his sort of, like, old Hollywood folksy, like, I'm just the Gipper kind of thing. And, like, right, sold this sort of like, it's morning in America. How can you argue with this? Right. Don't we all want America to be like, like it was in the morning? but it's right basking like a very kind of mercenary strategic mind yeah and it just sets the stage for the for everything that comes after it's like everything is now seen through a different lens

you know you engage with the movie in a completely new way and you indulge these little scenes of slower pacing because you believe this really happened i just think it's it's you take that out you know you watch this movie without that title card you have a completely different experience i think you're right i think it does right it just sort of locks the audience in. It's another read on the Mike Yanagata scene I love

Yanigata, sorry, that I love is that it's in there because it's the kind of thing that would be included in a movie based on a true story. We cut to her talking head

and she's like, and then I got lunch with my friend Mike Yanagita and it was a little funny. Like no one would write that but if it was part of the real story I guess you'd need to figure out how to dramatize it.

So the first but the first meeting and Fargo trying to think what to highlight apart from just like the clash between

Bishamese kind of like I'm not going to debate Jerry, you know, energy and Jerry's awes chucksness. Yeah, you're scrolling through the movie here. The one's the interesting thing

about this interaction is it's the only window we get into Gare at all beyond this guy's a stone called psychopath because Gare leans in and he says, or your fucking wife, you know.

Like, Gare displays some sort of like moral judgment on Jerry for this for this scheme he's like you want us to kidnap your own wife it's just fascinating because for the rest of the movie he shows nothing right he otherwise seems like the single most scrupulous character because like even busemi sort of goes like why the fuck would you do this you know as much as i think he prides himself on being a guy who can override any sense of morality busemi clearly has checks and balances in his head, and he feels fear from doing the wrong thing, even if he's like, it's worth it for money, versus Gare just kind of seems to be like...

Well, Gare's like a psychopath. He's a true psychopath, and he almost feels like a spiritual demonic force. Right. But, yeah, I guess Carl is a petty criminal, is basically worse. Right. Like, that is his general. Like, prides himself on, I can, like, do the unkind thing. Right.

But he's certainly not. They're not being hired. funny stuff there's a no rough stuff type of deal yeah um and but yes uh the the the idea of course is that they're going to get 80 grand and split it right uh we do not realize until way later in the movie obviously that the real scheme is that it's a million dollars that the criminals will just get a tiny amount of i feel like when you learn that there's something so brazen about it that you're kind of like god that's so smart of jerry and you're also like that's so stupid of jerry It's way too much money.

Like, it's crazy. You know, what would have happened if, you know, when his father-in-law was listening in on the call with Carl, if Carl had said, bring the 80 grand. Yeah. His father-in-law would have known in that moment. Right. Jerry did all of this. Right. Why am I putting a million bucks in this briefcase when the kidnappers are asking for 80?

And, of course, there's so many tension points at this movie if people would just kind of be like, yeah, fine. I'll pay you a little extra for the car. Right. Or whatever. That, like, that's the magic. of Decoons, obviously, is you... But also to your point, you're like, does he get away with it if it's

a million and they're doing a split? There's no way they get away with it in any circumstance. You're right. You're right. Like, there's no way. You're right. There is no way that the wife gets returned. Yes. And they escape with the money and everyone's like, oh, well, that was weird, but who cares? But it is... Right. I mean, look,

the core mistake is the plot. And then Jerry's like, oh, and I bought a parking lot, by the way. Here's a question. Yeah. Let's say that they had killed Gene. And yet, Jerry got the million dollars right okay so like everything proceeds the same way it's just that jerry escapes with the money he gets the money and he doesn't even have to flee like he gets the money they killed jean he never gets her back the police are like we're so sorry your wife was murdered but he's a million dollars richer yeah do you think jerry considers that kind of a win i mean is he also

a psychopath i think well he is or he's at least the rest of his life with this terrible secret and not be so bothered by he's a bad person and i'm not out here to call him help you know to cast judgment but the moment where uh what's the stan grossman is like how's your son and he goes oh oh like and you see it dawn on him like right my son's probably pretty fucked up about this is so shattering because you're just like so there's like a hint right of like humanity left to jerry he doesn't love that this is happening that's why i don't think he's like at his core i don't think he likes her like that much right has never occurred to him in the way Weeks and weeks of putting this together, like, oh, Scotty might be upset.

It's not until that moment that somebody else brings it to his attention. I think reinforces that this dude would be fine if Gene died. He just doesn't care. I think it's less that he's innately a sociopath than more that, like, his innate insecurity and his lack of confidence and how he has perceived relative to, like, masculinity in the world, has completely curdled his brain. Like, it now overrides every other decision he makes. It's all through the calculus of, like, how do I impress people?

How do I look like a guy that people have to treat with respect? Yeah, I, he's, whatever. He obviously prioritizes his own security as well over his wife's life. Right. He wants to pay off his debts, I guess. Right. And I think there's a version of him that's like, if he owns a parking lot and people feel sympathy for him because his wife died and he can get away with it. Yeah.

That's a win. That's an additional win. Yeah. I mean, let's say he never did this scheme. Let's say he was just on the up and up. He made some bad investments. He owes $750,000 or something like that. And he files bankruptcy.

Yeah. His father-in-law would probably pressure Gene to divorce him, and he would be a divorced dad and he'd live at the Jolly Roger, you know, down the road. That to him is so unacceptable that this is the action he takes. Yeah. It's fascinating. I have no doubt that Gene's. father would try to

even more than before convince her to leave him and yet as much as we're saying that she doesn't seem to like really love him they make a choice to not have her be some nagging rolling pen wife I think she would stick with him and his father-in-law

would have to bail him out financially and it would just be this toxic poisonous wedge in that relationship but I think that is his ultimate fear. That's his ultimate fear. This man will hate me more than he does. And the ultimate admitting of defeat of this guy owns me because the only reason I'm still in the picture is because he bailed me out. Yeah. I couldn't prove myself. Right. How they ended up together is also a bit of a mystery. Like, how did Jerry ever charm anyone in a way? But she does seem like she's not like a total idiot, but she seems like a bit of a kind of like sweet, simple kind of gal, I guess. I mean, she's laughing at the most vapid morning talk. Like, she is not, you know, she's not reading a Russian novel on the couch, you know.

God bless. And that's the sort of like the classic Cohen's thing where some people like, are they being patronizing? Like, are they rude? You know, do they hate these characters or whatever? And I'm like, no, they love these characters. I feel like they even kind of love Jerry. Like Jerry's demise at the end of the movie, not to, you know, where he's getting dragged. There's this like twinge of sympathy for the guy.

You know what I mean? Where you're just like, God, totally disagree. He's such a loser. like even he can't even go out like strong you know what i mean like them like dragging him in his underwear you're absolutely like yeah he deserves it yeah i'm not like you're like oh poor jerry but you're just like god he's just always a fucking loser isn't he but the fact that they make him do these guttural grunts like the grapes up lady it's so crazy i mean god bless macy he like goes for it yeah yeah uh you know what i find fascinating i don't it has basically been confirmed i think at this point that

William H. Macy was the original voice of Marlin and Finding Nemo. And he was, like, too much of a loser? Yes. And they, like, test screened it with, like, story reels before they started animation. And it was, like, the audience hates this guy. Yeah. And he was like, I don't know. I thought this, like, made sense with the sort of, like,

William H. Macy worrying persona. And he was like, I got to get someone who's, like, comedian first and foremost and can, like, own this as a joke. But it makes sense because there's something so contemptible about him this mode of like pathetic that even when it's funny it does make your skin crawl and think about him in Boogie Nights

it's like when he puts the gun in his mouth it's like we're all kind of like oh man what a loser you know he really was on such a run of losers right between this and the PTA movies I know and Magnolia he's the worst in Magnolia

he's amazing in it obviously but that is a character where like like Jerry is tough is a tough hang Uh-huh. He's a big loser. Uh-huh. But, uh, fucking, quiz kid, Donnie Smith, you're just like, I can't look at this guy.

Our original trivia team name, by the way. That's true. Uh, pilot, Circa, C.C. Pyrrero, uh, came up with that name. But, like, you can't look at him. You're just like, this is too. The scene with him and Henry Gibson at the bar. Tragic. It's, like, one of the most skin-crawling things I've ever seen.

That's basically what Stanton said is, like, he was too good of an actor that you couldn't laugh at this guy being a neurotic fish dad. You're just like, oh, my God, this guy's fucked up. And it's funny to watch him in other movies where he's not a loser. You know, like, I watched, I watched Jurassic Park 3 last week. And he's, and he's, you know, he's not like a hero, but they've jettisoned all pathetic drip out of, out of his character in that. And it's like, what are we doing with this guy? Like, what is happening here?

Okay. Now, I need to sidebar here for a second because David and I are both Jurassic Park 3 defenders, but you're making me. And I am too. I enjoyed the movie very much. I like it. You're making me realize something for the first time. is that movie missing the spice of Macy going full Jerry Lundergard? Oh, I think it would be better.

There's a dash of it. There's a dash. But if that character totally unravels and becomes that pathetic. But then you need him to get eaten by dinosaurs. You would be like, dinosaurs. Eat this man. I still think we're solving problems here. But what's interesting, Pleasant Phil's in the middle of this run as well.

Which he's so good. He's excellent in that movie. And he's also playing kind of a loser, but much more lovable character, very sympathetic character. He can give sympathetic performances. He's amazing in Air Force One. Wildhog's one of the most sympathetic performances in history. What does he do in Wilders? He's good at computers.

He fucks Mercer Tomei. Great. Yeah. In the Air Force One, it was you. Yeah. You've never. Have you seen Air Force One? I have.

But like, it's not one of my. I've seen it like 400 times. He says it was you. It's incredible. Well, also, let's remember his most emotionally rounded and resonant performance. Sea biscuit? Yeah. Guy with all the things that make noises.

He's got a little. triangle. Remember when they nominated him for a Golden Globe for that performance? Everyone's like, yeah, why not? Who gives a shit? So, all right, so Jerry hires these guys and then, you know, we're like, we don't mean March for half an hour. So we're just

in this immediately unraveling situation, right? Like, how quickly do we get, I guess we go from that to sort of set up of like Jerry and his family and like what a dork Jerry is? Right, right. And then it cuts back to the two of them in the car and I feel like that's the immediate unraveling is

these guys can't get along That Busemi is so unsettled by his silence Yes That he keeps going like, it's fine, I cannot talk, let's not talk all day And then he won't stop talking about not talking It's so brilliant It's so good Total fucking silence

Where is Pancakes house? I too would get sick of pancakes I get sick of pancakes usually in the middle of a pancake order Yeah And the smoking with the windows up I mean, that right there would... The move Stormair does... Yeah. Where went in the murder, in the, you know, the crime, I don't know how to describe it,

the triple homicide scene, where he, like, rolls the window down, he just kind of, like, lets the cigarette out of his hand. I think about it all the time. It's so graceful. It's so cool. He's kind of, like, rocking in this sort of, like, strange, kind of, like, autistic. Right. Him going into, like, full psycho mode.

It's beautiful. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. Yes, it is. He is so scary. But even there's something so resonant in the like hard cut to the two of them fucking in parallel beds in a shitty motel and seemingly getting like no joy from it. There is not even this sort of like kink to look at us. We're doing this together.

Right. It almost feels like they're annoyed that they just can't afford separate rooms. Right. Would you do that? It's so crazy that they do that. Never in a million years. Someone you, I guess we're basically, these guys have essentially kind of just met, right?

Yeah. Is that the idea? Yeah, basically, yeah. But they don't know each other well. No, they were like basically set up on a blind crime tape. Is it kind of the hardened, these guys have probably both done time thing of like, I'm gonna fucking,

I need to fuck someone. I've taken a shit in front of someone in a jail. So, like, I don't care. Like, it's just kind of like, right? I'm just gonna, yeah, let me ride. Privacy has been beat out of them in the years of... Right. Right. But they're getting no juice from it.

Like, there's no... Crucial to the sex scene is the cut to them then watching TV. Yes. That just rocks. Yes. And the Tonight Show, it's just such a funny thing. Like, are they going to laugh once on this episode of the Tonight Show? Right. Right. It's so good.

The way that the doughboys have turned pulling an auto focus... Yeah, yeah. ...into a term. Within a group of friends pulling a Fargo is a... is a joking turn we throw around a lot. The old double, double bed hotel room. Just kind of like dispassionately have parallel sex and then watch TV together. It's great that we meet the girls after

and they are just so, like, chill and silly. They're so funny. I mean, it makes so much sense that they wrote this for Bouchemite. But the repetition of just kind of funny looking. It's just kind of funny. Just kind of generally funny looking.

Even more funny looking than most. How would you describe him? Because I would go on the teeth first. I'd be like he's got kind of prominent teeth, But I guess it's kind of like a weird thing to say about someone. But they're right. I would start with the eyes. I'd be like,

he's got kind of like steepy-shemmy eyes. But this is why. You can't shake. This is why just kind of funny looking is the right thing because you're like, you ask 10 different people and they each would start with a different thing about him. Yeah. His lips are French in a way. Right.

He's got so many different things that on any other person would be their only defining physical characteristic. That's so true. And you just combine it and you're just, Like, I don't know he's just kind of funny looking. Just kind of funny looking. Yeah. Well, yeah, what else happens? Why are you pointing at me?

Because you had Fargo up. Oh, yeah. This movie is so perfectly constructed. I'm actually trying to think about it. Then it goes to the first negotiation of the true code. Yeah, the true code scene, right. Which is, right, I think just the depths of how pathetic he is. Early.

Right. And then the real failure of that scene is when he admits that the true code is already on it, even though they didn't ask for. it. So he's probably going to have to take the financial hit of not charging them for the thing that he thought he could talk them into. Like, there are all these little indignities that keep stacking up in his life. What I love about that scene is he makes this, like, totally phony, pouty, like, I'm a bad boy kind of expression at the end. You know, when the guy's pulling his checkbook out and he's looking down, Jerry's looking down, and he's like, you know, mock

guilty. It's really, but he knows. This is always the plan. It's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Like, everyone sees through him at all times. They put that on at the factory. He's transparent. I don't know what you guys are talking about. Yeah. Okay, so he's a big loser.

Yes. And then it's the kidnapping. You pretty quickly from there have the establishment of this previous scam he's running with the license plates. Right. Where he's what borrowing money on cars that don't exist, right? That's what he's doing. Why wouldn't you just send in serial numbers of cars that are on the lot? I think I'm too dumb to understand.

I'm possibly too dumb, too, but, I mean, the reason is probably because, like, that is a crime and would be easily discovered, I guess. Right. I don't really know, though. I mean, it speaks to his confidence in something he does not have figured out in that. The best I can make sense of his plan is just he thinks he can stall them forever and or get the cash. I think it's more of a, I'll find the money somehow. And then return the money back to them eventually when he's like, well, a year from now, I'll have $2 million. And then I go, oh, sorry.

But the play. Wait, because they are, it seems like they've already fronted him the money because the guy says, or I'll have to recall the loan. They've given him the money. Yes. I got the money. The money came through. And the assumption I feel like is that money is gone.

Right. Right. Right. He's still running. Got the money and it went wherever it's all going. Right. Yeah. That money went to pay off debts that are still not made whole.

Right. Even though it was 300. What the fuck are the debts? Yes. Is he a gambler? Like what? What is it? I'm dying to know.

That's my question. Ben, do you have a take? Yeah, I think he's such a bad car salesman that he has not been bringing in any money for his family. Yeah. Because it's a commission-based job. He would be fired, though. No, well, but he's, it's his father-in-law's dealership.

So he's kind of getting away with being one of the worst car salesmen of all time. And I really do think he's just like, like, trapped, and he's bad at this job, and that is basically how he has been generating money for his family. But I also think he keeps, like, metaphorically going all in at the poker table, right? Yeah. Like, he's sort of, like, one smart move, and I get myself, like, ahead. Sure.

And it truly could be, like, this guy went to a casino one weekend and lost $10,000, and over 15 years it has spiraled to $2 million. Right. Like, I think it's just that he. He keeps doubling down on... I'll get the money back by doing this. This is risky, but if it works, then I'm... He does have some avenue of association with the criminal underworld.

He knows Shep Proudfoot. I mean, I think there's a chance that he maybe rubbed elbows with some unsavory grifter guy who convinced him that he had this, you know, this get-rich-quick scheme, and it was not all the way on the up and up. And, you know, Shep Proudfoot was probably adjacent. Yeah. Things went south, and now Shep is his lifeline to maybe a new... scheme to get out of it. That is a really good take, because this is the exact kind of guy who gets

scammed and never recovers from it. Yeah, he is a rude. Right. He's a rube and that is a thing that would only emasculate him further on top of then having the financial anxiety of how do I make myself whole again. Because I just don't think that he could have been bad at his job to the point where he secretly owes over half a million dollars, you know, at his father-in-law's dealership. It's like, if you suck that much at selling cars, like, that's going to work. That, that's It's going to, that's on the books, you know? What? And I know the reason is, I should stop name-picking and who cares. But does he ever think about kidnapping the father-in-law?

Who's going to pay? Stan Grossman? That's right. Maybe Grossman will do it. Maybe. Maybe Grossman will free up the funds. But yeah, no, I don't know. It's just kind of like.

I was like, can you imagine, like, trying to kidnap Clint Eastwood? It's just like, it's not going to, it's not going to work. It's just so callous to, obviously, to be like, well, my final, final, final, final bar. marketing chip is I'm married to someone whose dad is rich. So I guess I can ransom her. I just think it's so great that when this movie starts out, you're literally opening with him proposing, you know, or confirming the deal to kidnap her and get the ransom money. We're already so deep into this scam he's been running with the cars. Right, which is great. I mean, this is exactly where we need to be.

We need to be seven eighths of the way into his doom for him to be doing this. And he's preparing to pitch the parking lot thing. This guy's got three things that we know of going on at the same time. We're in Act 2 on page 1. Right. You know? Yes. That's great.

Yes. Just to, I'm sorry to just, but like, because it's connected. Right. This scene, I find the scene where he's revealed essentially to be kind of right in meeting, you know, where they're like, this is a good deal. The financials of this do kind of make sense. Right. To be so satisfying to watch, I watch it a lot. because it's the perfect Cohen's thing

where like there's this little note of triumph for him where like this guy who clearly resents him for being such a loser and marrying his daughter is like yeah I mean this is a fine deal and he's like great so give me the money and they're like why would we do that we're not a bank the most devastating moment in a certain way is you're like he could have gotten away from this

and we just went to a fucking bank not that any bank would give him money he could probably like up to his ears in debt but it's almost the most painful moment in the movie when they go well I hope if you're not interested in pursuing the seal, you're cool with us just doing it without you. Like, dude, you just lost your finder's fee.

I think they're going to give him the finder's fee. I do think they, well, maybe not. I don't know. They're pretty ruthless. In that scene is he has nowhere to sit. You know, he's like, he has to sit on the edge of a chair facing the other way. It's just like he is always at odds. But he's like deep in one scam.

He's setting up a crime and he's got a plan for like a legit business. does he has a way out but he could never get a million dollars essentially to get out no and by the way like if he's smart what he does is take the finder's fee from it and then go like let me find more things like this let me build a relationship he's not that smart i also think if he's smart i also think if he bought the parking lot he would screw it up somehow he would he wouldn't like do it right yeah oh he's just destined he's just destined to be this way absolutely he was always going to be face down in a bed with two cops and knees in his boxers, yes. I want to say about the deal

with the parking lot. He mentions if he makes it happen that he wants to actually pull out on the ransom scheme. Right, because he goes to the chef to try and cancel it. He thinks he's going to be okay. So he's set it up in a way where he's like, my backup, even though his wife has already been

kidnapped. Right. Well, no, he doesn't know that yet. Oh, okay. He goes home to her being kidnapped. It is so stupid of him to engage these two guys before he takes a shot at the parking lot. Like, that should be the backup option. He only goes to. I think he's in a lot of trouble. He's so desperate. Yes.

He's so desperate. Well, parking lots kind of feature in this movie a lot. The most, I feel like the best shot in the movie is him trudging to his car. Yeah. And it's like this lone car in the lot surrounded by snow or whatever, right? And then, like, the scene with Carl having to pay. for the long-term parking. Right.

And then later, Carl shooting the other, Carl shooting the other parking guy. Like, parking actually pisses everyone off in this movie and does seem to be this kind of like in inescapable money drain in Minneapolis. But that's also the moment that is so iconic where he fucking loses it trying to scrape the ice. Yes. Off the windshield. It's so good.

I'm having a flat to that. Dumb fucking hat with the flats. Larry. Look at that parking lot. Yeah. Oh, that's true. That's right. Yeah. So then I think he goes home before we skip the scene where he goes home and his dad is

having dinner with them, which is such a great moment where he goes, dad's joining us for supper. And she's like, yeah. And you can just see he's just like, fuck another miserable night. Yeah. And the kid just wants to go to McDonald's. They aren't drinking milkshakes. I'll tell you that.

Yeah. What does he think they are doing? The kid does not seem like that bad a boy. No, no, no. Yeah, they're not smoking weed at McDonald's either. Yeah, like maybe there's like bumming one cigarette and like passing. it around or something i don't know what they're doing not drinking milkshakes are so funny though yeah um so yeah so yeah what else so then the kidnapping um yeah which

look i can quote this movie i'm sure you're uh like this zach in that like it's like i can quote this movie visually you know what i mean like i i remember like scene like shot transitions and like you know just like framing and stuff from this movie i've seen it so many times when i'm not as good at that walks up the porch it is one of the the greatest, terrifying and funny, I mean, it is so them. It just works on every level. And he kind of presses his face to, like, peer through the glare at her. And she's just watching dumbly, like, uncomprehending of what this person is doing.

And it's not until the glass breaks that she realizes, like, danger, idiot, get up. You know, it's so good. Yeah, just her knitting, watching the soap opera, starting to clock him and taking her time to react. Just kind of being like, it can't be what I think. think it is. Yeah. Right. Did you guys notice that it's Bruce Campbell in the soap opera? Yes, of course. And it is an actual soap opera that Bruce Campbell did that they licensed almost to mock him. I was wondering, I was like, this feels so authentic. The way the audio sounds and like the dial, it just feels so real. It was one of his earliest acting jobs that I think they did almost in the same way that Ramey likes to

torture Bruce Campbell. Now, intolerable cruelty has a soap opera thing too, right? But where they like made a Fake soap operas. There's something with that. Yes. Yes. Right? Where there's something on TV. I can't remember. Yeah. Anyway. It's amazing in Fargo how many characters are watching television at all times for trying to watch television. It is a massive theme in this movie. Which I think lends itself to the opening title cards. You know, I think there is something about our addiction to these stories and to this kind of being fed information through a screen. Yeah. It happens to be intentional.

Well, and this like escapism thing of these people who are, living these very quiet, controlled lives and dream of, right? It's also so cold. And this movie is so cold. Right. And anytime someone's outside, you're just like, go inside. Right. And like, and you, and the movie is communicating that to you. Like, it's hard

to be outside. Yeah. And, like, you want to just be warm. And you just want to be in Marge's bed watching, like, TV and talking about stamps. And, like, anytime anyone's outside, it just looks so miserable. And it looks miserable in the cabin. They've got the oven open, and you can see Jean's breath coming through

that cabin is tough yeah uh it's not that's not the nicest white bear lake i want to i mean minnesota has a lot of lakes right famously 10 000 or so um the kidnapping anything we want to say about the kidnapping apart from the i mean for how controlled and perfect it is their ability to stage incredibly clumsy things without it feeling like hyper precise like slapstick comedy like part of what's upsetting about the kidnapping and also unnerving about it is that it feels like

sort of so mundane and messy in all of their movements but also like the shot sequencing and they're being sort of weird amounts of space they're not being weirdly a sense of urgency to it as much as there was an urgency in her trying to like escape it

and I think she thinks these guys are there to just fucking kill her they're being so slow and deliberate in their moves. Yeah, yep, yep. Yeah, Peter Stormer, having no concern for anything. You know, he pulls the mask off immediately when he gets bit, you know, his concern shifts from, like, this felony I'm in progress on to, I need to get ointment on my, on my bit hand.

I need unguent. Yeah. Yeah, what the hell is Anguant? Anguant is just a, a name for, like, a greasy substance, essentially, an ointment, you know, like it's it's so funny that he uses that word it's a very old-fashioned word i don't know if the if the coens just think it's funny or if it's supposed to speak to his kind of like you know uh second language yeah i need on gwent david what this episode of blank check with griffin david podcast about for monographies

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David. Yes. I wear glasses. Ah, to see. I do, in fact, wear them to see. I used to wear them as an affectation when I was a child. Well, I did the same thing. Yeah.

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But. I just stop wearing. in mind. Yeah. How's that going for you? It sucks. Yeah. See, this is the thing Ben. What do you mean? Why did you stop? I just got lazy. Ben, you got to get your butt to Warby Parker. You're the one who's always telling me the value

throwing a good fit. Right? Yeah. And feeling good. It affecting your whole sense of self, right? And Warby Parker's like throwing a fit for the face. Yeah. It is. It truly, it immediately improves your quality of life. But as a

With glasses wear. Right. Warby Parker used premium materials. They design frames in house. They've got silhouettes, colors, and fits made to fit every face. I love the frames themselves, but let me, can I just talk about the experience? Because, David, I went through it again recently. Okay.

I had an old pair of glasses that had been my mains for a while. No. Break on me? After several years of loyal service, I salute them. And I went and it was one-stop shopping. I said, it's been two years. Let me get new vision test. Get your eye exam.

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You can also head over to Warbyparker.com slash check right now to try on any pair virtually. That's Warbyparker.com slash check. Warby Parker.com slash check. And if people want to flip it Griffith style, I'll just say I'm currently. rocking the toddy wide frame in Oak Barrel. And it's cool, too, because you can see if you get glasses. So she gets kidnapped.

It's the carse, the chase, right? Or is there anything in between the kidnapping and the murder? I mean... The thing in between is what I just mentioned, the Jerry essentially losing the lot. Right. But then also him coming.

home with the two bags of groceries and having the sort of processing walking in. Right. Being like, right. They've done it. It happened. It happens. And you don't. And then rehearsing the phone call which is so good. So incredible. I think that's one of... And fully as speaking to you sociopathic.

I think that was a Macy idea I saw. Oh, really? That he was like, this is a fun beat. Right. And yes, the moment where he's he's practicing it, you're like, this guy's gotten the performance pretty close. Yeah. And then the hard switch when he gets to the receptionist or the, like, it's great. It's so good. I also want the framing of that shot.

We're not in the kitchen with him. We're like kind of in the hallway and we've got the banister in the foreground. And it's just like, it's voyeuristic. You know, we're just watching. I don't know. I love that choice. It's like the fucking taxi driver pay phone scene. Yeah.

Where you're like, you feel like you shouldn't be seeing this. Get the camera away from this. You're seeing something uncomfortable and embarrassing and, and two in. intimate yeah um and then that's one of the the cuts to black i think fades to black is after uh yeah hold and then it goes and then we go to the the night driving right well then it cuts right to paul bunyan at night and the night drive yeah amazing and this is like the biggest set piece of the whole movie arguably you know um and and it's so so well done so we've gone into this argument in the past about

the Francis McDormon winning for lead William H. Macy being nominated for supporting. Sure. The actual affront

is the Macy being nominated for supporting. Yeah, that's not. McDormand is clearly the lead. It's just Macy is probably, I mean,

I have him in lead. He's the lead. I can sort of hear an argument for like everyone else is kind of supporting, but he's in a lot of the movie.

He got, I believe he has 30 seconds more screen time than she does. I always question the way that people fucking stop Those stats are a little weird.

But they at least have basically equal screen time, if not slightly more, towards him. It obviously becomes her story. And she's the one who's sort of driving the plot. But I also think one of the things that's so interesting with the Coens is that very few of their movies are really driven by one character. They are almost always plotted either thematically or by an event. like the event is sort of the thing you're following and then you're attaching yourself to different characters in the arc of...

I can think of a lot of counter examples to that. Lubowski is obviously character-driven. Inside Lou and Davis is. True Grit, I would say, is with Maddie. Serious Man is. A lot of their crime movie, I guess, in particular. Yeah. But what's your point about Macy?

Like that he should have been nominated in late? Where'd they... No, it's just interesting that we're... The cynical calculation of, like, he's more likely he's not famous. Let's do it. It was more that I'm just clocking. We're getting to the final shootout, which means, or what you described as the big set piece. The indie spirits put him in lead.

Right. Basically, no one else even, the Globes didn't nominate him. And SAG put him in supporting. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, I think his nomination was like a mild and welcome surprise at the Oscars were, because he was not a very well-known actor at that point. But obviously, he's so good in the film.

More than that. does cost Bouchemmy on his maybe most obvious chance at an Oscar knob before Ghost World, which he's also stopped for. I just think he remains

one of the most egregious like never nominated for the academy. I write them a letter every day. And they tell me to stop. But yeah, no, it's just fascinating to think about how deeply

we've gotten to the movie and that we're getting, you're like at the big set piece and she has still not been introduced. True. That it is like 30 minutes on the day.

dot after the big blow-up. Yeah, this scene of, like, once again, like clumsiness. Like, Busemi trying to pull the move of flashing the money in the wallet. So stupid. So unnecessary. It took me so long to clock that that's what's happening. Yes. And then the way the cop, like, flips the wallet shut.

But, yeah, I mean, but I think Bishemi just thinks that's the only way. But Bichemi's stupid. The stupidest thing. he does we don't see which is that he brags to the guy in the bar that he killed people right and like the way the guy describes what he was doing like you're like I can exactly picture

Carl like popping off and essentially being like well there's there's a trail of dead people behind me that you don't want to fuck with me but a stupid calculation he makes is the moment where the cop says what's this if Busemi is savvy in any way

he goes oh sorry right sure Like he acts like it was truly an accident Rather than like he quadruples down He keeps repeating What if we just settle it here in Brainer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the guy is just not having it at all

And he's making it worse and worse. Right. Yeah. I think there's no way out of it. They have a woman in the back seat. Yes. Like if she was in the trunk, do they get away with it?

Do they basically apologize with the cop? I mean, he was still going to get in trouble because he's still going to try and bribe the stupid fucking cop and that cop was obviously not going to have it. And he was going to get, someone was going to get shot no matter what, whether she's in the trunk or in the back seat. This is what we keep circling back to. There are so many unforced errors in this movie. And yet, the characters are making errors on top of each other where even if you're like, well, if they had just done this one thing differently, that's not accounting for the five things they did around it.

Yeah. I mean, if he just put the tags on the car, everything would have been different. Yes. And that's the first thing he should have done. Yeah. It's crazy. He should put the tags on the car. Um, so they killed the cop.

The thing I think about the most is the little spurt of blood. Mm-hmm. It's so good. Onto Busemi's face. Yes. Yeah. Just the little, like, pathetic fountain. Yeah.

Like, it's more than nothing, but it's not like an insane geyser. It's just this like, I just think about it all the time. I also always think about the way the cop falls out of friend. Yeah, the way the way they, you see him for one second, his head covered in blood, but like, literally one second, yes. Yeah, he falls back on his knees away. from the camera. It's so it's sickening. We talk about in the Blood Simple episode, but they said so much of their, like,

genesis of that movie is feeling like deaths and movies are always too clean. Like, even when they're bloody and messy, they're bloody and messy in the sort of like operatic way. And they're like, death is like really clumsy and it, like, takes longer. And you just have these sort of like

odd embarrassments. Right. Yeah. But yes, how quickly they just get themselves into like a perfect knot of well now there's a dead cop now there's a guy driving by there's an eyewitness right there's like no way out of this without just more murder and insanity um yeah they're kind of doing what will mh macy's doing they just kept digging deeper and deeper and deeper into trouble and compounding essentially a sort of like we'll figure it out mentality uh but yeah the people see them that the shot of the guy's face like

you know, it's so good. It looks like Louis Anderson. I always think about Louis Anderson. He does kind of look like Louis Anderson. He's got a big orange coat on or something. He's got like a bright coat on. Yes. And it's just, I mean, I just again, just imagine being in the theater in 96 and like this shot and the cut to black.

Yeah. And just that like wave of like laughter and craziness that must have gone through the audience. So like, what the fuck just happened? I feel like we talked about this and David and I being a little. younger than you, Zach, that, like, for both of us, we think our first exposure to the Cohen's was watching Billy Crystal edit himself into the Oscar montage this year, into Fargo, and, like, sitting in a room of grown-ups laughing at it and both being like, what is this movie? It's got, like, broad comedy tone, and it's about murder.

And I have a very similar memory of this movie playing in theaters in New York for so long and constantly walking by when my parents would walk me to school a theater that had the poster up and being so confused by the needlepoint poster and being like, what is this movie that has this sort of like cutesy depiction? What he did was

he's the other cop. He's Lou, right? He's Lou. Yeah. Talking to, in that first scene, in the morning sickness. And then he's talking to Buscemi in the car. Okay. They're like talking to each other.

Yeah. It's playing pretty fast and loose with the narrative there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's back to him talking to Jerry McGuire and, you know, there's some great stuff here. All of that to say, like, our exposure to it was first the pre-digested version of, like, we all know how funny Fargo is. Versus I wish I could have had the purity of being able to see this in theaters, like, opening weekend and being like, what the fuck is this?

No one has ever done something like this before? Um, well, it's a good movie. what happens after. No, I basically, right, the body lying in the snow goes to... Oh, right, we go to Marge. We go to March.

We go to her getting to call in bed. The camera... Prow needs a jump. Yes. Prow needs a jump. But the ducks, the painting supplies, the camera tracking over to them in bed and her being woken up.

The most, like, you know, incredible introduction to a character. First, this. Yeah. the breakfast. But then her, the breakfast, you know, you got to have a breakfast. I got to go. Him being, like, got to have a breakfast is another acknowledgement of her pregnancy. Yeah. Like, I don't think he's just hitting that so hard because he's her loving husband. He's like, no, you need to eat, like, you're pregnant. But he knows if he said it that way, she would push back on the idea that she's vulnerable.

So, but then, like, yeah, and then just, I'm not sure I 100% agree with you on your police work there, Lou, where you're like, he's such an idiot, but she would never chew him out. She's being so nice about it. You know, just. the her whole approach her whole matter of factness about the homicide this execution style deal like the way she's talking about this horrible thing we just witnessed like her her sense of politeness does not override her doing the correct or responsible thing right she's not going to defer to this guy out of being polite she finds the most polite way to push back and explain her own theory i also just love the sort of like just get breakfast out of the way vibes but also them having breakfast in like pitch black darkness that feeling of like when you are awake too early doing a thing right as if you're like eating before like a red eye flight yeah yeah i also like that you know she gets there she hasn't seen the the dead trooper right um she just sees the two bodies there in the by the upside down car and she's she's good she already can like put together exactly what happened yeah and she's right you know we got a we got a shooting over there and then

And then we got a drive-by, and they come here, we get the execution-type deal. Yeah, it's, she's great. But then she has the little, and it looks like a perfectly nice guy. Right? She has the little aside where she's like, she's acknowledging that this is a tragic situation. Yeah. She's not Blasey exactly. She's just even-handed or what, like, she's just kind of like even-tempered.

But it's like what she's getting at with the last line, her last lines of the movie, which is just like, what could possibly have been worth all of this. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is, yeah, in a way, like, they should be, I mean, this is a cop killing. Like, this is crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, and it's odd that she didn't have a relationship with the dead cop. Like, that is never acknowledged, you know, like, this is a tiny town. This is a small police community. You know, an officer is gunned down in cold blood, and they don't spend any time talking about that. Although I guess it's basically he is from a neighboring, precinct and got shut down in the sort of like liminal space between the two cities Yeah They might explain it But he wrote DLR

And that means dealer plates And And You know I guess she finds the call girls first Right the first thing they find Where she's like Well that's a good lead

Is that like two guys checked into a motel With call girls In a Cierra In a burnt number Sierra Yeah A Sierra is an Oldsmobile. I had to check. I didn't actually know what it was.

They say Sierra so many times. It was my first car. Your first car was a Sierra? It was a cutless Sierra. Hell yeah. It was a hammered down from my grandpa. Burn amber? It was not umber.

It was a dark blue. How are the tags on? How are the tags? Yeah. Regular license plates. Okay. Thank on. Well, then that's the answer, Ben.

Jesus. How did it drive? It was an. fantastic car. Okay. I loved it and unfortunately got into an accident and it got totaled. Oh, that is too bad. It drove great.

It was a V6. It had some power to it. And it just was so purposely designed for like an old man in this really lovely way. I had like lights built into the rearview mirrors so you could like, you know, look at your map. Oh, very nice. Or it was also helpful for rolling a blunt. in the car at night that Sierra saw some blunts

yes it did yeah she interviews the ladies well no before that you cut to Jerry meeting with the father-in-law and Stan Grossman loves strategizing the the ransom payoff

St. Grossman's a great character so good that guy's clearly a smart guy the smartest guy in the movie right in a way that's exactly who Jerry wants to be right like even Even more than he wants to be hard press now, like, that's the guy he aspires to be. Who's just, like, solid as a rock, responsible, has the respect of other men. He doesn't need to be, like, the King of Shit Mountain.

No. But that's what they bring up, like, how Scotty doing. Right. And he's like, right, Scotty. Yeah, I'll talk to him. And I think he is... The scene where he tries to talk to him is so miserable. I think he's doing a fairly good job of keeping a brave face.

on it and yet every single thing that Scotty's bringing up is clearly something that he hasn't considered until this moment where like Scotty's first question is what do you think they're doing with her right now and his response is nothing these guys they just want money right which is

him like knowing these guys are just waiting to be paid off right but yet the more Scotty digs into it the more he's like you don't know these fucking guys they could be doing anything to her but I don't get the sense that that is really occurring to him he doesn't He doesn't seem to be that alarmed.

He's more alarmed that Scotty could, could, you know, let things slip to his wife's friends. You know what I mean? Yes. That's true. He actually is trying to maintain Opsack. He also thinks that, like, Scotty is worrying over nothing. I think he believes what he's saying, which is stupid.

Right. Jerry always thinks he's in control of every situation that he's clearly lost totally control. Right. He's like, these three people are going to sit in a room together watching TV until they get the check and they'll bring her back safe. never the only time he ever says anything is in the first scene where he says i'm in a bit of trouble right and then he won't go into it but like those calls where the guys on the phone being like well if you don't send me these numbers i'm gonna he's just like yeah a real sure yeah yeah yeah yeah all fax it over to you know like obviously you can tell he's stressed out he never says

like god what the fuck am i going to do my favorite moment is when he goes like i sent them in the mail they should be arriving and the guy goes that may be so but i'm letting you know i'm out of If I don't receive them by tomorrow, I'm filing charges. Like, even if they're in transit and they'll arrive two days later, your luck has run out, your time has run out. And his response to it is still so contained. Sure, sure, sure, sure. That is a moment where you'd expect them to give him another sort of like ice scraper meltdown.

Well, do a damn lock count. That's him melting down. No, but he does melt down after that, Griffin, because then we cut to that wide shot through the window and he grabs his keyboard and slams it on the desk. Yes, you're right. You're right. You're right. But he stays calm on the phone. Yes, yes.

Right. He's still trying to confidence his way through it. Yeah. Right. So then, right. It's Norm comes to bring her lunch. You know, there was a scene that they filmed that they didn't put in the movie of Norm ice fishing. And they cut it out.

Interesting. So I have been told. I don't know if that's true or not. But I don't know why they would shoot it. I think it probably makes it. sense that we don't they do say like i thought you were going up ice fishing at mill lake or whatever like yeah like and obviously he needs his night crawlers right and that does norm is like the salts of the fucking earth yeah and everyone does seem to respect the hell out of

this guy and then like the touch that he paints yeah is just like the perfect final touch to this character of like he's got a sensitive like artist side you know what i love to when they're talking about uh i forget the name but the competition of the other person who's in the running for the stamp. Yeah, I forget his name. They don't shit talk them. And even Marge is like, well, he's good. He's talented, but you're more talented.

Right, right, right, right. Like, you're better than them. They're good, but you're better than that. Right. It's the circle back to they're good, but you're better. She doesn't want to put the other person down. She just believes in him so deeply. And yet, this notion that it's like, he comes and eats lunch with her every day.

Yeah. Yeah. In the office. He knows everybody in the building. Yeah. Which does sort of speak to maybe he used to work there, I don't know. Sure. Again, it doesn't really matter. He's such a welcome presence.

There's welcome seasoning for her character as well, obviously. And that's when Luke comes in with the lead of the two women. Right, right. And she talks to the ladies and they're so funny. One of the two who has no other... Less uncircised? Yes, I think it's that one, who has no other screen credits. Sure.

Was basically a dialect coach on this movie? Right, that makes sense. The one on the left, it's got to be the one on the one. Yes. I think it was like a local theater actress. but she was the one. I don't know if they hired her to do this first and then cast her in the role or vice versa.

But she said, like, in particular, McDormon credits her. Larissa, Cockernot. With cracking the voice. Incredible name. Yes. And Melissa Peterman,

who is the other one is like a, you know, has been a zillion things. She was on Young Sheldon for a zillion years. Hey. Nice work if you can get it. She's a main cast member. Yeah.

I know, she's recurring. I take it back. Well, it's a huge difference. these two who are, you know, I presume sex workers because you know, um, yes. At least part time. But they have a completely different attitude. These women seem untramatized and like

this all and all seems like a good experience. Yeah, they don't seem to think they're like in trouble for like, you know, patronizing these men or anything like that. The third woman is unquestionably a sex worker. And she is definitely like, does not love this where he's like, you find this line of work interesting and she's like, that fucking you're talking about. Right. She's over the job. Every other time I watch this, I

oscillate back and forth and thinking are these two women's sex workers or not. I think they are because he knows the place they can get laid or whatever. They're kind of like their girls who at least are like, you know, whatever. The bartender knows some gals that might be interested. And they're so

blasé about everything. Right. There is like a lack of like, it's not just that they're not worn down by the thing in the way that the third woman is, but they also just don't kind of seem canny about anything. Like, they just feel like they just go out and they do what they want to do.

I love when the one is like, go bears. She's talking about her high school. Go bears. Yeah. She rocks. Yeah. We also see them arrive at the lake house and Jeannie running around with the hood over her head. And then laughing. Yeah. This is the scene

where Carl, it really does show his hand that he is also a psychopath. You know, Gare's not laughing. Carl thinks this is the funniest shit in the world. I mean, That is just actual cruelty that he's displayed. Yeah. Here's a thing I think the coens are about... I think Gare doesn't find anything funny.

No. Like, he... His brain is, like, kind of like, there's just like... He's a lizard. Right. There's nothing... There's nothing reading in there. That's why Carl cannot make conversation with him.

Right. Like, he is capable of having sex. Yeah. So he sort of, like, has some, like, animalistic functions. He also doesn't seem to enjoy it. No. Even as much as... Not really.

He's, like, dead. That's why it's so interesting when he cares. He seems offended that Jerry wants to kidnap his own wife. It's just, that's interesting. Well, I want to circle back to this because I, I'm thinking about you calling that out. And I'm like, is he offended as much as he's just kind of intrigued by that being an interesting human behavior? You know, he clearly disapproves. There's a value judgment on it, but I'm also like the only thing that activates him is like what he is perceiving as a level of cruelty.

that he seems unfamiliar with, if that makes sense. Like, this guy is desensitized to violence, and yet this sort of alarms him as just like, that's fucked up. He's like, what is the world coming to? Right. Everything else he's, like, numb to. And that's sort of just like he cannot ignore. Right.

This is like his Tommy Lee Jones in no country sort of like conundrum. Right. I don't even know if I belong in this world. I think it's also, like, one of the things that the Coen brothers are as good at as anyone else is in almost every scene, every character is ostensibly sort of focused primarily on something other

than their main, like, textual objective in the scene, if that makes sense. Right. Like, I think they're really smart about, like, constructing environments for really interesting behavioral performances. Right.

Where even when Lou comes in with the lead, Marge is clearly, like, you know, on her game. Yeah. Seizing the opportunity. but also her priority is I gotta finish this lunch Yeah, I'm eating these French fries

She needs her arbyes Right, and the same with like them watching TV While Jerry's wife is running around Uh, John Carol Lynch in some interviews said that the only direction He really remembers the Cohen's giving him was Uh, in one of the scenes Maybe it's this one

He was paying too much attention to what Lou and Marge were saying Uh-huh And Joel came out to him and said like, you don't care. Just finish your meal. Right. I love that. You're not ignoring this,

but like this doesn't matter to you. Right. Yeah. The guy's shoveling his front side, his front driveway when the cop's interviewing him about the interaction at the bar with Carl. You know, it's like that's his focus right now. That is a perfect example to me of a scene where when I am watching it,

I'm like, this guy is the best guy in the movie. For these three minutes, he's transfixing. And of course, the most important thing in that movie is these guys who are wearing fucking space suits being like it's getting colder like it's going to be colder tomorrow they have the weather combo

with like oh yeah there's a front coming in I'm like guys it looks like it's minus 40 degrees you never get a clear look at his face he looks like fucking Kenny McCormick he is so naturalistic that it almost feels like they like hidden camera an actual citizen this guy I dug in a little bit

is like a Minnesota theater legend who started like the most reputable theater company. But I think his only other one other film credit. But I think was sort of the activation point for a lot of the local actors they hired in the film and just kills this one scene. He kills it.

Yeah. So I called it in. Like his story, it's like he's giving this like valuable like he's like a witness. It's really a piece of information. And he gets through it and he's like So I called him. The guy's like, yeah, well it's probably nothing anyway. I guess it'll be cold here soon in this fucking frozen hole it's almost presented as boring kind of like a boring story but like

when the two women at the bar won't stop harping on how funny looking busemi was yeah it's like well but they also had like a very intimate experience but this guy's also like yeah he's just kind of fucking funny i mean what they're trying to say is like he looks like a little weasel like what do you want from how do you define this guy other than that he is unusual if he walked into a room you would immediately walk he looks unlike anyone else yeah He has been styled to look like a weasel. It's just that you can get that guy to, you know, to a weasel faster than some actors. Busemi, I cite a lot as one of the prime examples of, like, people who are cast to be ugly in movies, if you see them in person, you're like, they are so striking.

Striking and good-looking guy. Because anyone who registers on camera is, like, innately kind of captivating looking, even if they're unconventional. But if you see him in, what's that movie he made when he was really young, that's Trees Lounge? Well, he's, no, he's amazing in Trees Lounge, but he's obviously. playing kind of a rough customer in trees that guy's had a couple drinks over the years i don't know if you noticed that about him um but like new york stories he's like new york stories is an example but fuck what's in the soup the movie with um semore cassel great little movie like he's so cute in that movie yes he's adorable yes um but it's right what they're really speaking to more than anything

is like look like anyone else he is unique right and also this guy's energy is just weird it's what you said he's just like there's something unsettling and weasily about this guy yes uh ben you keep coming in and out of the zoom and i always jump scares me it's so funny um no one's watching the zoom obviously so it's just me that cares about this so we're gonna cut that out of the podcast because who cares um it's just me that cares about this so we're going to cut that out of the podcast because who cares um also if you could edit in a little bit of ice clinking it feels like it's been a while maybe it's another good moment to place it in oh thankfully it's melted after the This is Mike Yanigita.

I'm saying, but we have it on the soundball. Do we have more on Mike Yankeeda? Yeah, I got an hour to do it. Well, we're not going to do an hour. But do we have more on Mike Yankeeda that we want to explore. I mean, Steve Park at this point in time, was most known for do the right thing and in living color. Yes. Right.

He's great and do the right thing. Yes. He talks about after this, he did a guest arc on friends, experienced an instant of, like, absurd racism behind the scenes, wrote an op-ed letter. about it that I think was published in the LA Times in 1997 sure and says that he was like soft blackballed from the industry for a number of years and you look

and like the credits dry up for a while which is absurd because you watch this and you're like this guy should have become the single most in-demand character actor for the next 10 years and instead he's kind of on ice and it takes until the mid-2010s that people start being like

why does no one fucking hire that guy like it's part of the persistent distance of Fargo is I think when people rewatch it, they're just like, no one's using this dude? And obviously the Cohen's used him again really well in Serious Man. They do, yes. Right. And then

the final segment of French... I'm embarrassed to say that I am just now putting together that that's him. That's him. He's the dad of the student, yes. I did not realize that. And also, we were... I thought you were making like a weird joke when you said he... when you quoted that line from Sirius Man, but yeah, okay. He's like the secret sauce of the final

segment of French Dispatch, too. your favorite movie a movie i like a tremendous amount but he's like transcendently good in it right yeah um it's weird to me that he didn't realize that he was funny in that scene and that that when i think he told him that that that scene slayed he was like but it's so sad i think he's he's in that character right he's like i'm playing this like truly sad guy who's well i guess the question is just he's explosively crying saying you're such a super lady like that's funny you know yeah i'm not with you on that. He's such a super lady. I think

I guess my question is, Stephen Park know he's lying. I guess he probably was told like this is not true. That's a great question. I don't actually know. I think he's trying to affect your performance. Play the guy with a level of psychological realism even though it's in a weird tone

and the language is obviously so specific and there's no way to say that without sounding a little goofy. I think he's trying to avoid being condescending to the character. Yeah, he's great. I mean, he does a great job. In his mind, he's like, I'm not trying to make this scene funny. Yeah. But of course, the sadder he plays it, the funnier it gets. Like, it is that, you, you always talk about the fucking interview you had with Christoph Walt's promoting big eyes. Where you were like, so you play a bad guy in this movie. And he's like, I might disagree with you on that point. And I was like, Jesus, I have 20 minutes with you. We're going to fight about whether you're fucking villain characters bad. And you're like, no, the problem was that 10 minutes in he was like, yeah, you're probably right. And that.

I was like, well, then why'd you fight me on it, Waltz? He was like a cat playing with a mouse. Yeah. I was just this tired little guy, you know, with a load little notepad. And he clearly just like, I'm going to fuck with this guy. Yeah. Anyway. I just think, right.

Like, he is a guy who is innately funny. Stephen Park. Right. And, like, has a comedy background and knows how to be funny. And they probably cast him for that reason where they're like, if this guy plays it straight, it will still be funny. It's versus hiring a dramatic actor who, might just make it uncomfortable it's a scene i sometimes struggle to watch it is so uncomfortable yes

it is sad the way she reacts to not before he's crying to him moving next to her that is the roughest moment in the scene for me it's like it gets so much worse and then it gets even worse in retrospect when you find out he was lying and yet the absolute pit of the flimsiness of him being like how about I sit next to you and her being like oh I you know wouldn't you know I can have to turn to look at you just immediately a bad move she's going out of her way to try to find the most polite reasoning for why she's putting a wall down the thing too that would like with finding out later it's so insane that he is dressed up and wore a suit there's something about that to me that like stuck out but she's dressed up to like they are I feel like they are kind of like well

You want to dress up for the radisson? Yeah, I guess it's like... But he is living with his mom, so it's like tough to imagine him like at home Like, with his mom putting on the suit. Yeah. Yeah. It makes it so much more sad for me. How old is March?

Is she like 32? Like, how old is she? Like, she's not that old. I'm guessing 36 is what the number that I... Like, how old is my head, but I don't know that might be too old. But you know what's really interesting though is in the phone call with her friend where she's recounting the encounter with Mike. Her friend describes

that he was really pestering her, meaning the woman that Mike said was his wife. And it's like that is, back in 1987, they didn't call it what it was. Right. Yeah, he was being fucked up. He was stalking her. And they used their Minnesota nice, yeah, really bothering her, really pestering her.

And it's like, dude, what we're seeing is the first step of Mike's stalking March. Possibly being kind of obsessed with her. And the fact that he's undeterred. by the fact that he knows she's married to a guy, he also knows, and is seven months pregnant. Right. Yeah. Right. Like it is the hyperfixation.

There's a whole other movie here. I mean, there's a whole fascinating movie. He calls her because she was on TV. Right? Like, he calls her because he saw her on television. Yeah. Yes. Right. Right. Right. Right. Which is also so great. Well, how the heck are you? It's like such an insanely obnoxious question to ask at 1045 at night. Yes. And also when you're in the middle of like fucking investigating a triple homicide. Sure. So 96, Francis McDormant was 39. Right, right. So when she made the movie, she's about 38 or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. That track. She's literally late 30s. Right. About 20 years since they've all graduated. Right. So, but yes, it's not that meeting Mike makes her kind of reevaluate that first interview she did with Jerry. It's hearing on the phone that he, you know, lied to her that does seem to spur her to go back to Jerry.

and kind of press him a little harder. And I think... And Jerry's a bad liar. Mike's a better liar than Jerry. Like, Mike is the worst liar. Yeah. Right. And it's also interesting.

She does go back and say, how do you know? But she doesn't seem to clock that he's a liar until he just completely disintegrates in that scene. He disintegrates under very little pressure. She wasn't like, I think this guy lied to me. You know what I mean? Yes. She's initially basically just like, well, maybe the car went missing and you didn't

clock it essentially. So after the mic scene on this watch, went back, rewound, and rewatched the first Jerry Marge scene. Because I was like, I now want to see what she wasn't picking up on with him. And I think it's less that Mike makes her realize he could have been lying. And more that Mike kind of reminds her that everyone in this culture is putting such performative layer on type of all of their social interactions. Right.

Yeah. That she's just like, well, everyone's lying all the time. Yeah. I need to like look deeper into. their personality and the circumstances of their life because even when she goes in to see Jerry for the second time she clocks the photo of his wife on the on the desk

she's just like not really considering all the angles of who he is as a guy versus what he's saying to her and she's obviously not seeing him as a suspect the first time she's just like there's so many disparate elements here and I'm just trying to trace them where the fuck do the cars come from right yeah um and

in the first scene he's not a good liar but the only thing he really fucks up is he takes like 10 seconds to answer one question. There's the moment, I'm trying to remember what the question is where she asks him something and he just locks in eye contact with her kind of pleasantly smiling for like 10 seconds. It's because she says Brainerd. Yes.

And he knows because he's already had the conversation with Carl who said three people in Brainerd. Right. So he's been shed, Jerry. Blood has been shed. And he's doing the math of trying to decide how much do I pretend I know. Yeah. How much can I get away with? How dumb can I play here?

Yeah. And even still, she kind of takes him on face value because I think, once again, she lives in a world where everyone is kind of putting on errors all the time. No, I hear you. They're always sort of covering their real feelings and masking them. Yeah. The second time, he so immediately drops the cover. And he's so fucked anyway at that point. Like, he is like, right.

And she doesn't know how deeply he's involved in all of this, but knows he's covering up something and it might help her get to. it that the second she starts pushing him and he starts being like, I don't appreciate your rudeness that's what really triggers her in my mind is her being like if this guy's dropping the politeness this quickly, he's 10 times

guiltier than I thought. Okay, no, here's the thing. Yes. She, yes, she buss William H. Macy wide open and he runs away. He's fleeing the interview. Right, he thinks he can just drive away. And that means that yes. But you can. He's not under arrest. No, he's not. But he is fleeing the

interview. But that's also, that immediately makes them almost even a hundred times where that doesn't get her to the cabin. And there's things that happen in this movie that we don't see. They kill his wife. Yeah. We don't, ah, she starts screaming, you know. Yeah. Like, that's the end of that. We never see it. We don't know how that transpired. And rewatching it this time, this was the first time I can't believe I've seen this movie countless times. It was the first time I noticed

the torrent of blood on the stove. It's, yeah. It's awful. Yeah. Yeah. And like, everything to see. integrates off screen essentially. You know what I mean? Much like the move they pull in no country. Yeah. Of just like you can figure it out. Well, it's, I feel like they talk about this, but they're a process of writing together.

They're like, if the idea of writing a scene doesn't seem exciting to us, then you just don't need to do it in the movie. Right. Then like, what's the next scene that's more interesting and how do we get whatever information we need across in a different context? She doesn't find them because of Macy. She finds them because she essentially is like, well, before I leave, I'll just kind of drive around those lakes that that guy

mentioned. Yeah. From the bar. Right. And she just fucking drives around and then she sees a burnt sienna. Yeah. And that's it. Right. And you have that moment. It's the most like sort of caveman detective work. Is it Lou over the radio who's like Margie be careful? And you do feel that sense of just like is she really just going to fucking pull up to the

driveway? Yes. This is the moment where her pregnancy like becomes a story point for real. It's like you should not, you are the last person that should go like story. forming into this remote place with murderers. Because he says, like, we'll send a couple cars over it. And she's just like, I can't blow this. Yes.

And she does a great job. And she fucking shoots him in the leg and, like, gets him. I mean, she does crush it. It's amazing. The framing is the same as when that man in the red jersey goes running into the tundra away from the upside down car. Yes. And now it's Carl. It's the daytime version.

The exact same angle. The exact same movement. And Carl goes for the kill shot And she does not She shoots him in the leg It's a skill shot She like nails it You see her take her time

Line it up Yeah Fire one bullet She fires twice Does she? She misses the first shot Okay But she basically hits them

It's pretty implausible That she hits him at all She's like shooting With like a 29 revolver It's another thing that like Belize that she is in fact She's a little magical But also that she's like

Fucking good Right You're like this is someone Who's gone through Like insane fucking firearm training has like spent time at a shooting range to nail that shot even in two and also she's not trying to kill him

she's trying to incapacitate him which she does and then she you know off camera goes out on the lake cuffs him brings this wounded man back to her car takes him into custody and drives him into town seven months pregnant it's awesome and we don't need to see any of that and it's like I just solved the murder of

five people five six well there are six people killed in the movie five that she knows of right so the five or the three you know the two bystanders and the state trooper the poor guy at the parking garage

that Bishemi shoots Harvey Presnell who Brissimmee and then the wife Oh so I guess that Is that seven? Yeah seven I forgot about the parking attendant

Everyone forgets about the poor parking attendant Yeah Who just was one parking attendant Too many for Carl I feel like you know what I mean Sure Because like the thing with Carl

We didn't mention of course Like when they shoot each other Which rocks so much Like you know It's just you know Open a fucking gate You know, it's just him doing that where it's like, the guy could probably just open the gate. But clearly, like, the guy's like, huh?

And Carl's, like, shooting him. It's the moment. I bet the guy said, like, buddy, are you okay? That's what got him shot. It is the moment in every rewatch. Look at my fucking face. Where I get so. Aly square.

Actively annoyed about Busemi being robbed of the supporting actor nomination. Because I'm just like, him being able to play peak Busemi irritation. Yes. While also playing the, like, I cannot talk. I am bleeding out. And the way he enters the cabin, and he's like, huh, get a load of me, right?

It's so good. And the way he walks out where he kicks the door open and then stumbles on the step as he's like going down into the yard, it's amazing. The indignity of him trying to get the paper towels to cover up

to stop the bleeding and having the weird scrap stuck to his face with the pattern on it. But I'm like in that scene with with Peter Stormair I'm like he just doesn't cheat

at all in terms of how limited this guy's jaw would be at this moment like how do you split a car you dummy right dummy and the feeling that like not only can this guy barely speak but the more he talks the more pain he's in and yet he's so

annoyed he's going to keep fucking monologuing and you see like his eyes going bloodshot as like the longer he's fucking getting to this philosophical argument that he deserves the car the more he's like going white with pain yes no it's wonderful he never is

he's not even mad that he killed her no no he doesn't care just wants the fucking car right you know what else we didn't talk about is at this point he's already buried the money and put the world's weakest little marker that is obviously not going to be there tomorrow it'll be like covered with snow immediately another horrible

plan another just like poorly thought out in the middle of nowhere right just snow right a block away from town yeah right put it next to you like a tree exactly but to your point even if he makes it out of the confrontation with stormair ahead gets the car and is on his way what are the odds he finds that spot he's going to collapse that the money is still there what are the odds he lives for another 12 hours right why does he even go to the cabin why doesn't he just take the million dollars yes he's That's actually an exceptionally I guess he wants the car Or maybe he doesn't want Stormair

coming after him he's like I give this guy 40 grand And then I have one to me and I guess there's that My doubt he thinks that way Do we think at that moment that he doesn't know That stormer killed? He doesn't know Because he says what happened And he's like she started screaming

So he's going back maybe to try to I think Zach's right He's kind of like I do not want storm air on my ass That guy's scary I'll give him the money And then they'll split. And then they haggle. And you're like, stop haggling.

Jesus Christ. Give him an extra 10 grand. Yeah. David. Yep. Ben. What's up? We've been doing this Cohen Brothers miniseries.

Yes, the films of the Cohen Brothers. Lot a bag of money movies in this filmography. Sometimes people find a bag of money and it matters to the plot. It's a thing Ben talks about a lot. Yes, because for me, I always feel strong. that it's going to all work out. That if you found a bag of money, everything would work out for you perfectly.

But what you don't talk about is, what are you going to do once it works out perfectly? What are you going to do with that bag of money? Oh, I see exactly where you're going with this. I'd buy a bunch of clothes. Well, but here's the thing, Ben. Yes. What if you want to preserve that bad?

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You got free shipping and 365-day returns, Quince.com slash check. And indeed, that is one year. That's one year. Now, you said there's the moment where he leans in with sort of the shock at Jerry's cruelty in hiring them, right, when he realizes the plot. The only other moment where Stormair has a really big reaction to something, and he underplays it is like

when he clocks McDormand she's been yelling he can't hear her over the wood chipper then he feels her in the peripheral vision he turns slowly and he looks to her

like a small child who knows that they've just gotten in trouble he like plays that one moment with vulnerability where he kind of knows

he can't beat this woman yes and he knows he's caught like you said and he looks he looks scared and he also looks embarrassed. He looks

embarrassed by everything he's done and that she's caught him in this moment not looking cool. And he obviously throws the log at her. He wants to get away, but like, he's got no chance. He's walking into a leak. It's like so apathetic at that point. Yeah.

It's the same as, again, the parallels of Macy and these guys is the same. They just, bad decision compounded on top of bad decision. And it ends with both of them just futile running for where they don't know, you know. just may he sees the same way. What's he going to do if he gets out that motel window?

Right. Yeah. You're going to get caught somewhere else. It's wild. I don't have that interpretation, Griffin. I don't see his expression at the Woodchipper as like shame and embarrassment. I see it as like, oh, there's another person here. You know, the lizard continues.

But I do think that there is a moment where he shows a little inner life when he's watching the soap opera and the woman says, I'm pregnant. Yes, and he actually reacts. And he looks genuinely engaged in surprise. He is, and it is, you're right, it's the only moment he actually seems like to have a human understanding of emotions. I can't believe she's pregnant if you didn't tell him.

Even if he's not embarrassed, he is so unflappable in every other moment where he is confronted with a sense of violence. Right. I mean, obviously the entire, again, I try to think of this entire audience being like, there's a foot in the woodchabre. Obviously, it became the butt of a million jokes.

Another thing where I knew watching this movie for the first time, get into the iconic woodchipper versus that just being like, what the fuck? He says it in Monsters Inc. I think about that all the time. He says it in Moncemi's character says I'll feed you into a wood chipper to somebody. And Woodchipper is part of Monster Zing. I have it on my fucking desk, but this was the promotional novelty snow globe they made of the Woodchipper. Oh, there it is.

That came with the VHS when the movie was released. Is the snow white or red? Okay, so this is a reproduction of the vintage one, the snow is white. The vintage one, the snow was red, but they've all yellowed over time. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah, there you go. So that's why I got a newer one. Yeah, I think there's some story.

I knew, like, of this, like the sort of like memified merchandise version of the woodchipper before I got to just see that scene hit out of nowhere. It's so annoying that when I search for Fargo and I, do you be, the TV show comes up first. Well, yeah, this movie's based on the TV show. Oh, God. I was trying to, there's some, like, only Stormer knew how to work the Woodchipper. Like, the Cohen didn't understand how woodchipper. chippers worked or something like a bit he i can't remember what it was but um yeah uh that you get her

final monologue the final monologue and then the the coda of him getting the stamp like you walk out of this movie really feeling kind of awesome yeah i think that is part of the magic well she's still you're sort of like there's something right with the world she's still speaking in a folksy way in that final monologue but you can tell that she is like actually disturbed by what she's put together in her head the understanding of why did this many people have to die uh right right right but like i just feel like you're watching this movie and you're like like the darkness there is like sort of some like resistance to the darkness you know what i mean like she's still here and there is something like comforting about like yeah like it's not all evil not to read too much into it but

like the last scene is basically a metaphor for what you're saying right of norm being like they gave me the two cents stamp three three i'm sorry the three cents stamp and he's viewing it as this sort of like it's a second place or whatever and she's just like they're important when they raise the prices you need the three cents stamps right and it's sort of like does it feel meaningless for someone like marge to exist in a world where this many deaths are going to happen and you can't prevent evil and it's like marge is a three cent stamp she is making like some small contribution to trying to like stop the ugliness of the world even if she's not able to to do it holistically because she's not a she's her optimism is is intact yes you know right right

it has not curdled her soul she is not like truly magical as much as the movie sometimes fear is close to frame her that way but she talks a lot about it like being really important to her that she pull it back from feeling like she is just this sort of like impossibly perfect comedic conceit right um but she's like right she she is able to hold on to her soul live around And, like, A-Cab, but I watch this movie and I'm like, this is what cops should be. This is like the only positive prototype I've seen for like in a functional society what a cop would do kind of. Sure. I guess so.

I don't know. You're short of making robot cops, obviously. There's a cop in weapons, right? Alden's playing a cop. Yeah. Excited. He's not as nice. He's not as angelic.

Yeah. Less nice. Yeah. But I just had the weapons trailer, you know, that shot of Alden. It was just fun, fun. You know, I like a fucked up cop. You like a fucked up cop. It's a good movie, you know, like that, that's, there's juice there.

A bad lieutenant? Sure. Sure. Tell me this lieutenant's bad? What if there was a bad lieutenant? Zach, before we wrap to, you know, Fargo's sort of legacy or whatever, is there anything else we have not said about Fargo? We've been talking for a while. I don't think we praise the score enough.

it, but, you know, score's amazing. But it's like operatic, like, for such a minor kind of, like, story about dirtbag. Yes. Yes. Yes. But you saying, like, there's the one moment where the score is sort of, like, playing up and joking with the movie itself

in the break-in, I think you said? Well, I'm not saying that it's playful. I'm saying it's as playful as it gets in that scene. And it's not that playful, you know? It's still kind of dark. Yeah. I forgot to bring this up in the Blood Simple episode, but there's a really good feature on the criterion disc of

Skip Luce and Carter Burwell talking and how Ski Plytze was the one who brought Carter Burwell in Coens, yes, right, recommended saying I think you could be a good film composer even though he had no previous ambition and brought him over to the Coens and thought, like you guys would match in tone. And he

said that they, he was like, I never thought about doing this for a living. I should try to study the art of film scoring. Yeah. And so he said the first movie he rented to try to watch through that prism, he was like, Hitchcock movies have good music.

Let me rent some Hitchcock movies. Sure. And he watched the birds. And then only at the end of watching the birds did he realize, oh, this movie has no conventional score. I picked a weird one, essentially. Right. That, like, Herman worked with Hitchcock to intentionally build the sounds of the sounds of the

birds and use it in a way similar to music. But that is a movie where Herman was like, it's actually better, I think, if you don't have music on this and he said that like it is complete chance and sort of a mistake on his part that that was the first movie he chose to study when trying to get his head around film scoring and yet he thinks it was so instrumental to him to have the confidence to be like sometimes the move is to not do it sometimes the move is to like zag i shouldn't feel the compulsion to like literally underscore everything and accentuate what is there on the page right um and you're Right. It's like sometimes the score feels apocalyptic, but the quietest sort of like piano version of the main theme is also so deeply sad.

Yeah. It feels so tragic. Yeah. Sure. It's a tragic movie. A lot of people die. Seven. Family gets destroyed.

It's kind of it, I guess. Most of the other people who die, who cares. That parking guy heard he was a jerk. Yeah. The indignity of you just saw me pull in here. Oh, yeah. You got to pay him the $4. But that feeling of like, I just have, pay him the fucking $4.

This guy could talk to you about, like, someone to you. Yes. And Carl can't let it go. Try not to stand out. Like that. Yes. It's wild how bad he is. Yeah.

The film was released in March. That is crazy. It basically takes one year for it to win two major Oscars. But beyond that, it didn't premiere at a festival. Yeah. Didn't, like, have any particularly kind of, like, complicated rollout. or whatever. Right. Wins Best Director at Cannes two months after it was released in the United States.

Yes. It played at Cannes. The jury gave the Palm Door, Francis Ford Coppola was the chair, gave the Palm Door to Secrets and Lies. Uh-huh. Michael Lee's Secrets and Lies, but it won Best Director. And then, of course, it won two Oscars, actress and screenplay. And it was a nominee for Best Picture. It got great reviews. It basically swept the Spirit Awards. I think it won every category, maybe. And I think it's still their, yes, I think it's their move, their most iconic film. It's their core movie. Despite No Country, obviously, being the smash that it was, I do think you kind of can't argue with Fargo.

And in an interesting way, no country feels like a less humorous version of Fargo. They are so similar in so many regards. And even just this notion of like, is it even worth trying to fight? the darkness of the world, like, what difference is it going to make? Obviously, Sugar becomes more mythological, and the whole film has this more sober tone that I think... But Sugar is this evil myth figure, and Marge is kind of a good mythic figure in a weird way. But I was thinking about, like, at this point in time, Fargo winning best screenplay is, like, very in line with what they would do in the 90s and the early 2000s of, like, the movie that is really cool that the Oscar goes for, but they're like, is this. it's a little too weird to actually give it best picture, the pulp fiction kind of thing.

And now I think like this movie would win best picture. It is like... It's a completely different world. And Nora just won best picture. Absolutely. Like you can't imagine them being like, well, it's too funny or it's too slight or any of those sorts of things. No country has a sense of like overriding grimness that I think finally made it feel like these guys have gotten serious enough.

We could give them the Oscar, which in the 90s, there was like a prejudice of. of like, is this all kind of a goo for them? Right. Despite, like, you kind of can't deny the screenplay for this movie. It is so, like, tightly plotted, but also it is such a great example of every single line that every character has in this movie could only be set by that one character. Like, every character's voice is so unique and distinct and serves a different function and is, like, so right there and vivid on the page. still beat Jeremy McGuire and Secrets and Lies

It was a tough competition that year Yes That's sort of the indie Oscars that year That was the other thing Billy keeps joking about That Jerry McGuire was the only studio movie March 8th, 1996 Griffin This film's opening on limited

36 screens at number 16 What was the widest it ever went? Do you have that? I'm just curious I got to ask questions It made $24 million domestic It opened 60 worldwide I think

51 It went as wide is about 700 screens. Okay. It is not number one. Number one is a big hit comedy. It's new this week. March 96.

Yeah. It's a big hit comedy. Made $180 million for a one. Big hit. It's a big hit with a comedy star. Primarily comedy star? It features a major comedy star and then a major serious actor.

Okay. And then another kind of up-and-coming comedy star or I don't know how to describe it. Okay. serious actor major comedy star march 96 who was the distributor of this picture uh it is from mgm it's not the bird cage it is the bird cage it is the bird cage wow okay my god knickles is the bird cage yeah good movie yeah that's what's just crazy about it that you're like that thing was a blockbuster yeah and was like not like a a fucking political hot potato yeah that everyone just went to see it

and like funny yeah yeah Number two is also new this week. Less of a good movie. Okay. A sequel. Family film. It's a family film sequel. Yeah.

It's not like, is it a two? Is it a deuce? It's a two. It's not like Home Alone 2. Or, I'm sorry, Homeward Bound 2. It is Homeward Bound 2. I got it? Lost in San Francisco.

The debut film from director, do you know who directed Homeward Bound 2? No. Oh, wow. That's funny. David R. Ellis. Director of Final Destination Two. Two and four. I just rewatched all of them leading up to

Bloodlines, which I just saw in Rips so fucking hard. What's so interesting about the Final Destination movies is that he made two, which I think is arguably the best. Until Bloodlines, I thought it was the best. The Logs one. The log scene is the greatest. It's not just the greatest final destination sequence, and I haven't seen Bloodlines

and you will love Bloodline. I'm sure I will. I can't waste your mind. But that log sequence is, that's a masterpiece of anything it's just amazing i i was uh i was rewatching all of them and i watched the log scene and i was like you know what i'm not ready to move on from this and i restarted the movie from the beginning and just watched the first 15 minutes again the logs are so good it is so incredibly well staged yes it is and a sound design all of it but then here's my thing he made in my opinion what is also it arguably the worst one the fourth one yes which is one of those things where you're like i don't get why this is bad and the others are good because it's not so

same diverting from the formula it is doing the same thing yeah and yet the tone of it is off it's too nasty yes it all the characters kind of are just annoying i think as the kids would say it just feels like the team move version of final destination everything just feels kind of off it's just funny that like he made the best one and the worst one anyway uh no i was going down the rabbit hole of him and being like man final destination two is so fucking good where did this guy come from and he has one of those he died weirdly young and bizarre circumstances

that were never explained but he has one of these like studio journeyman careers where he was like a stunt performer and then he was a stunt supervisor and then he was a second unit director and he just had like 15 years

experience in different positions then directed a fucking talking dog movie and then did Final Destination too My wife worked with him on Shark Night oh that was his last film and she loved it said he was just really great to work with. Was the star of Shark Night, was she not?

She was. Shark Night 3D. Let's put some respect on that. Yeah. When's our last shark movie? Is it time for, I guess the Meg 2? Yeah. I guess that wasn't that long.

And there was a 47 meters down sequel. That seems less. I just feel like every couple years, some guy in Hollywood is like, oh, and pulls a lever and they're like, it's time for another shark movie. You know what I mean? It is weird that it's just some guy in the bowels of Hollywood is like, oh, the shark movie, it's time for another one. almost always works. Yeah. If your budget is low enough,

any time there's some shitty-looking shark movie that comes out, like 47 meters down two, and you're just like, no one's going to see that, and then just quietly makes $45 million. Number three to the box office is a romantic drama

with, like, big movie stars written by, like, big shots. Is it the Baldwin Meg Ryan one? No. Okay. That's, no, you're thinking of Andy Garcia Meg Ryan. You're thinking of one of a manless woman. No, I'm not.

I'm thinking of prelude to a kiss. Oh, yeah, sure. No, it's not that. Which Baldwin... It's even more prestige than that. He, he, he, Baldwin brings up prelude to a kiss so much on HBO max's the Baldwin's, as if it was obviously his Fargo. Like, every once in a while you end up on a perfect movie.

And it's so clear that he read the script and thought it was going to be the one that lasted forever, had a great experience making it, and it just didn't. connect um okay so i remember like i saw it that year it came out so i had to be real you know 16 i remember thinking this is a great movie i'm i'm sure it's good but it definitely has not lasted and he talks about it as if it was like the pinnacle of his leading man career right um so yeah prelude to a kiss it's been on my mind okay it's more prestige than that i the actors involved are are you know major sort of serious stars they're getting a little older like well although the female elite is it's not frankie and johnny no um but it's kind of is it in that zone no that's based on

like a play that people like this is based on a book pinino and fifer's prestige it's based on a book yeah it's based on a book that i think was about about a real uh person and it's sort of like fictionalizing it it is like a forgotten movie it is it was not made for an oscar for its song because it has like an absolute banger of a like big love ballads it's not like dying young, but is it like that level of weepy? I don't even know. I don't know if you need to weep. I think people die.

Who's the distributor? It's Disney, Touchstone. It's a Touchstone 96. It's not phenomenon, which we talked about is in that same year. And it's obviously based on true story. You know what? You might not know this movie. Like, this movie is so forgotten. It's best known because the people who wrote it wrote a book about writing it and how hard it was to write it.

Give me one of the stars. Robert Redford Oh Fuck It's got a great title Um It's got the kind of title A grown-up movie had in the 90s

It's not Havana No Fuck It's All right The other star is Michelle Pfeiffer Yep Yup yep

Yep yep The movie was directed by John Avnet Yes And written by Joan Didien And John Gregory Dunn Right It's is it called like

Blank and Blank Yes Fuck I know I know it has like a clear and present danger. I assume you don't know the title of this forgotten movie.

Is it up close and personal? Up close and personal. Wow. Robert Redford. I had the rhythm in my head. I knew as Dantan and Stocker Channing. Joe Montania,

James Rebhorn. That's a movie about grown-ups. That is a grown-up movie. I didn't, I don't know what it's about. I just knew when I was a kid. I was like, but it has the song

because you loved me. Oh. Written by Diane Warrenberg performed by Celine Dion, which does rock. It's like a just like a Diane Warren torch song. It is fascinating to look through

as we're in 20, 25 year of our Lord. Diane Warren losing her 30th Academy Award nomination or whatever. And I was advocating like, give it to her this year. Let's just fucking get this over with. Sure. You basically look, the first 10 nominations, you're like, all of these would have been respectable wins.

Yeah, because you love me. And now she's overdue in every song she's written the last 20 years has sucked ass. Stinks. Number four of the box office is a comedy that I'm sure Ben saw five to seven times on cable. Okay. Now, Ben recently brought up to me in confidence

that the most offended he has ever been by anything you've ever said on the podcast. I assumed he did or didn't watch some movie. You said, Ben, that's definitely one of your big movies. In a past box office game, one of the movies you described as you must have been a huge fan. You must watch this one. Sure. What was it?

No, you made it out to be like this defined your point. personality. Malibu's Most Wanted. Hell yeah. Are you sure it didn't? In the last couple days. Ben was still griping about this to me truly five days ago. You know the Jamie Kennedy guy?

I mean, we all got exed at one time. That's what I'm saying. Right. America got X. Like a couple of times, sure, I got X. But I wouldn't say I'm a Jamie Kennedy fan. I don't care. You truly framed it as like, Ben, this must have been seismic for you.

I am realizing my. outfit is giving Malby's Juan. Your shirt is not helping you out. No. It is not at all. You look like you're about to like do some B-boy moves, you know, and everyone. Well, that's more kicking at old school. That's a different Jamie Kennedy movie. This film is a broad comedy starring a sitcom star. I just need to set up the stakes to see if Ben's going to be offended by this. No, he definitely isn't. Let's see. It's a

broad comedy starring a sitcom star. From a director of movies that Ben loves other movies. Is it David S. Words Down Periscope? Correct. I believe that is one of your favorite movies. He's got it right. No, you're right. He's got your pet. You ever seen Down Periscope, Zach? No. That's the Kelsey Grammer Submarine Sex Comedy? I can visualize the cover. Yeah, never seen it. I personally have seen. We're getting ready. It will have happened by this point, but to do a live show in New York about King Ralph, one of Ben's favorite movies ever, and the movie we've been

threatening to discuss for about 10 straight years. Ben, quietly realized that he is a David S. Ward, a tourist over the course of doing this podcast, that every movie David S. Ward, Academy Award winning screenwriter of the Sting, directed... Major League, King Ralph, Major League 2,

Down Periscope, and then the program, the sports drama. I think you don't know. No, not familiar. Every other one. James Con. Yeah, I got to watch The Sting. Probably, like, the movie, yeah, he's known for... Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, you should watch it. Number four of the box office is a horror film. It's the fourth.

It's the fourth. Number five at the box of, sorry. Number five. This is the fourth. Okay. It's the fourth film in a series. Mm-hmm. In 1996.

I think it's the last theatrical race. Is it Hellraiser? Hellraiser. Four. Subtitled. So three is Hell on Earth? Possibly. Yes.

Four is... It's not Inferno? No, that's five. Fuck. Four is... Do you know this, Zach? Are you like... Are you a Hellraiser guy, Zach?

I love the first one. First one's incredible. Do you know this, Ben? I don't remember the title. I'm the only person who knows this. No, but I know... That's not true. This is somewhere in my brain.

Yeah. I think I'm gonna just make you do it. Is the word hell in the subtitle? No. The film is Hellraiser 4... Dominion? No. That has not yet...

There have not yet been one of those. The film is Hellraiser 4 Bloodline. Well, like Final Destination. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I'd never seen it. Uh, that's a film where, like, the director got fired midway through by Miramax and was replaced and shit. Yeah, I think it's a complete disaster.

Because the director was a centibite. That was the first time they tried to, right? There was pushback of why aren't you letting Centebites tell their own stories. Number six at the box office is broken air. I'm just going by that. Number seven is Rumble in the Bronx. It's like a fun. This is a fun, trashy time at the movie.

Yes. You can go see Rumble in the Bronx and then Homeward Bound 2 and Hellraiser 4. This is just a bunch of garbage. Yeah. Happy Gilmore is still hanging around. Mr. Holland's opus, the biggest piece of trash of all of these movies. Yeah. No movie you may be attacked more in your life than Mr. Holland's opus.

Zach, I know you're not trying to. I haven't seen it since it came out, and I have very little recall of that movie. I don't remember like it. This big take is that the opus sucks. It's seven hours of this guy abusing his students, his wife, just being an absolute crank. Yeah. And then he's like, and then they're like, well, you should finally do your opus. We all actually loved you the whole time.

And they do his opus and it just lays an egg. It's the worst opus ever. The story? Is that the opus sucks? The story is that he's always working on his opus and he's so frustrated by how he has to be a teacher. And he's like, God, I hate being a teacher. This sucks. And then at the end, the students are like, well, we loved you and we'll play your opus now.

And then they play shit. It is a classic example of a movie writing a check for itself to depict a fictional, profound work of art. And by the time you get to the performance, you're like, am I supposed to think this is good? And the movie frames it as an artistic trial. Yeah, but the movie's like, he did it. He was justified. Yeah. The worst.

I mean, anyone else in that movie, like, and he got an Oscar nomination. People like the performance. He plays it so ornery. It's crazy. Number 10th box? Yeah, I know. This might shock you. Number 10th the box office, Muppet Treasure Island.

One of the greats. Great movie. That's the box office. Much like Fargo, one of the few perfect films. Not a hair, not a single Muppet fur strand out of place in that film. Zach, we have kept you for far too long. Yeah. I've enjoyed every minute of it.

Well, that's very nice of you to say. This is a perfect movie. It is. And I assume weapons is similarly perfect and is in theaters now and people should go see it. Yeah. I am truly excited for weapons. Yeah. I wonder, yeah, I wonder how this, well, whatever.

We'll see. Scratch that thought. Hope it's a good time. I hope so, too. Yeah. We're very excited. Zach, it's going to go great. It's so stressful

You know I'm very I'm very The looming release is a It's a terrifying time And you're about to enter Like insane ramp up Yes right

You have to promote a movie And deal with the feedback And start your next movie Like simultaneously Yeah Sorry I'm sorry I

I'm comfort because I'll be working on the next one Like I'll be in Europe When this comes out I'll have to come back briefly for press but You know whatever happens with weapons I hope it goes well But no matter what I'll be able to go back

and just, you know, bury myself in production, which is, you know... Right, but don't drink any, like, weird vials that you find in any, like, labs or anything like that, okay? Okay. Just make sure... And, like, you know,

put all the gems in the correct gargoyle eyes and all that stuff. Yeah. Use the right color keys. Um, I met you, like, a year ago, and you had, I think, basically, like, locked your cut of weapons, but obviously there were still, like,

post-production finishing stuff to do. And you knew the release date was a ways off. And I said, how do you feel about it? And you just said, I love it so much. And you said it not with like a level of arrogance. You were like, I have no idea how anyone's going to receive it. I don't know if the studio is going to like it. I don't know if it's going to play well.

But I like, I was like, that must be such a great feeling to like step back and look and be like, man, I made the thing I wanted to make. And I'm existing in this state of purity before anyone else has to see it. Yeah, exactly. And right now, you know, in that time, I hadn't even done a test screening and it was just my thing. And it was like, I'm very, very proud because the movie I had in my head when I was writing it is the movie that I see when I watch it. I was able to do that. And that's not always the case. So, so in that regard, I'm, you know, I'm totally in love with the movie. I really am. But now it's like, you know, you got to like send your kid to the first day of school and hope no one's mean to it. Right now. Is everyone going to think your kid's a loser?

Yeah. Yeah. So. It'll stop being my perfect, pure little thing, and it'll start being something that everyone's allowed to have a say on and all that, which is, you know, that's what I signed up for. That's okay, but it's... Right. This is, right, the bill coming due. But it'll be great.

Yeah. I like the title. Thanks. I feel like I get what it's going to be about. Do you? Have you seen the trailer? No. Okay.

But I am not necessarily a trailer guy. I'm more of it. I just like to go in. Yeah. I love that. Going blind. I, too, tried to go in fairly blind. I have seen the trailer.

But the trailer's pretty mysterious. Will you go to a theater late so you skip trailers? I mean, I have. I mean, unfortunately, I mean, we were talking about this before we got started. I, you know, at times will be late. And so I will miss them. I can't relate. But you're not a like, you close your eyes and put your head down.

No, I go la, la, la. Yeah. Some people do that. Yeah. I watch them, whatever. well thank you for being here excited to see weapons encourage everyone to go see weapons

in the future where this episode is coming out and it's playing in theaters yeah we love that yeah and thank you all for listening please thank you guys very much for having me truly an honor privilege look forward to doing it again if you will continue to tolerate us

absolutely yeah come back anytime and come to New York so we can you know do an IRL you'll come on and talk about the the dangerous apartment from Big Um, tune in next week for the Big Lebowski. Who's doing the Big Lebowski? Well, we'll cut it out if he's not, uh, actually available, but as far as we know, Seth Rogen. Yes.

All right. Another, another future bet that everything has worked out. And if not, that will be bleeped out. We keep booking busy guys, including music. Yeah. And it's working out so far. Yeah. We love our busy guys, don't we?

Uh, and as always, uh, all that just for a little bit of money. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our associate producer is A.J. McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by A.J. McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American novel,

with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to Blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank CheckPot. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack.

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