Blank Check with Griffin & David - Ferrari with Bilge Ebiri

Episode Date: January 7, 2024

Vroom vroom! Michael Mann is BACK. Bilge Ebiri is BACK. How do you say “we’re so back” in Italian? Join us as we talk about cars that go fast (Ferraris), hair that grows long (Adam Driver’s, normally), faces that have seen smart phones (Shailene Woodley’s) and character actors that could have been in this movie (Paul Giamatti, but specifically as Pig Vomit). Masculinity is a cage, machines that work the best are the most beautiful, and we all think that the Mille Miglia seems like a bad idea. No grazie! This episode is sponsored by: Read Bilge’s writing  This episode is sponsored by: Masterclass (masterclass.com/check) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

you get into one of my podcasts, you get in to win. This is another, look, there's an episode coming up, I don't want to spoil, where we run into the same problem. Where it's very hard to do an impression of this actor doing an accent. But I think it's good. I think you nailed that. Really? Yeah. Because his accent is, it's Adam driver doing a voice you know what i mean it's not like so extreme as a bass line yes that when you put a vocal choice on top of it

like is there another adam driver performance where he fucks with his voice that much you know what i'm saying for how much this guy besides besides gucci i guess but But in Gucci, I feel like he was the most toned down. He was. It's a light touch. It's a feather touch accent. At least compared to the... He is the Shailene Woodley

of the house of Gucci. Yes, right. He is the soft and gentle. Well, look, this is an episode coming out later that I don't want to spoil, but the last,

the other version of this we cited was, unfortunately, it's been too long, the last time you were on the show, Nick Nolte in Lorenzo's Oil. Oh, my God, yes. Where it's like one of the most distinctive specific voices in the world, once again, attempting an Italian accent on top of it. And your brain sort of starts to get scrambled trying to listen to it. Yeah.

Well, I actually talked to Adam driver about the accent in the car and this is why you're here this is why you're here the thing he said i thought this was fascinating these weren't his exact words but but the the point he got across was that the accent doesn't exist like it's not an actual italian accent insofar as it's like an italian person trying to speak english like these people are speaking italian to each other this is just kind of the conduit by which it's a great way to think about it right so so he's not it's sort of the star trek rule of like you don't actually know what language anyone is speaking here there's some sort of universal translator look it is a thing i i think about a tremendous amount that i think is weirdly under discussed when we like critique actors yes american actors doing accents speaking in english

when you're like right but this would never happen this isn't right this isn't them playing a character with a limited grasp of the english language fighting through their accent to communicate to other english speakers this is like we have a babblefish in our head. Yeah, there aren't sounds they're trying to pronounce and failing to do so. This is like fluid language. It's basically there so that it's not too distracting that like 95% of the cast is in fact Italian speaking English and it would just sound really weird if the three lead actors did not have some sort of

accent. It's also, it's fascinating to me that it remains kind of a no perfect solve question where there's like the approach like this, right? There's the approach like Ridley Scott's Napoleon. Everyone used their own voices. Right.

And we're just not even going to acknowledge it. Yeah. There'll be British guys. There'll be American guys. There'll be American guys. There'll be French people. No one even try. And then there's sort of the like Hunt for Red October Valkyrie. We're going to call it out.

We're going to, in the language of the film, basically transition you into Avatar 2 does the same thing. Yep. Where it's like we're starting with everyone speaking the real language. And at some point we're like, and now we're transforming your interpretation. Now you can understand everyone. It's magical. Yeah. My,

my favorite example of like a movie where they just do not care about the accents is probably last temptation of Christ. That's one. Right. Because, and I, I still, I tell me,

Jesus, you're fucking right. I think I tell it gives like one of the greatest performances of all time in that movie. I mean, second to Defoe, who gives, like, the greatest performance of all time. But nobody will ever acknowledge that Keitel is so good because they're distracted by, you know, I guess his, what is it, his queen's accent. And I'm like, what do you think Judas sounded like, you know, with a thick British accent? No. Silence.

That is a film that's very similar to this one. Oh, good call. Where it's like, you're Portuguese. Like, you know, do an accent. Don't worry about it. They're Portuguese, right? They're Portuguese. Yes, yes, yes.

I forgot if it was Spanish or Portuguese. David, of course they're Portuguese. Medieval Portuguese. It's Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver. Andrew Garfield, Adam Driver, and Liam Neeson. The three most Portuguese men of all time. Adam Driver is leagues more Portuguese

than the other two. Actually, like, literally the three least Portuguese people of all time. But that's, I mean, it's the same approach.

It's like, yeah, just grow a beard. You're ethnic, right? You're European. You're medieval. Who cares?

Eat some pão de queijo. And Liam Neeson, who never does an accent because he seems incapable of speaking in any other voice other than his own. Yes. He just sort of softens his accent if he's a quote unquote American, right? Like it's still there, but it's just less. Like Michael Collins, he's full Irish. Right.

Fucking what's like a... He's the Jean-Claude Van Damme of serious actors. Yes. Fucking what's like a... He's the Jean-Claude Van Damme of serious actors. Yes, although, I mean, I love Liam Neeson, and I do think he's a serious actor, but obviously... But another guy where you're like, could you imagine him trying to put a Mario accent on top of his Neeson voice? He did a great job in Mario.

Like a movie? Oh, he does do a voice in that. Oh, that's right, yeah. When he's good cop, he sounds very different. In a way that I was pretty astonished he had actually, like, the range to do.

Yeah. If it wasn't animated, would it be more distracting? Probably. Maybe. I would like to watch the footage of him at the mic in the falsetto going,

Hi, buddy. It must look so weird coming out of him obviously driver's done a southern accent right like logan lucky you know he's done that and even those he goes a little lighter like he usually makes the sort of as you said house of gucci choice of like i'm just to put a slight layer. What did he pick in Last Duel? Another everybody do what they want. I think he just did Off the Rack Adam Driver. Am I wrong about that? He's just doing Off the Rack Drives.

This is the last duel. I think he just does that. I'm going to duel you. Hannah, Hannah, I'm going to duel you, Hannah. Annette, he's American. Yeah. Yes. You're my baby, Annette. I'm going to duel you, Hannah. Annette, he's American. Yeah. Yes. You're my baby, Annette.

I'm going to make my baby sing. My baby, Annette. You like Annette, right? I love it. It was my number one movie of that year. I like Annette. I like Annette. That movie sits with me very well.

It's really, really great. I think he rules in Annette. Oh, yeah. I feel like I just need to get this out of the way right now. I really struggled with this performance. In Ferrari? Yeah. Okay.

Really? Oh, I love this performance. I really struggled with it in a way I was quite surprised by. And I'm like, I'm almost annoyed with myself for not being able to get past it. But it was a completely, it was not an intellectual thing at all. I just like could not. And I, look, let's unpack everything this is blank check with griffin dude i'm griffin i'm david it's a podcast about filmographies directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series

of blank checks make whatever crazy passion products they want sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby several years ago now we did a series on the films of michael mann called the cast of the pod he can correct aka michael mansplaining yep uh and we we had on as a guest the great bill gabry true uh who's something of a michael mann scholar in fact our final guest on the show, really. To cap it off. He was here for Black Hat, right, yes. And then here's his first movie in seven years, eight years?

Black Hat was 2015, right? Black Hat's 2015, so eight years. Yes. Yep. Obviously, he did a TV pilot in between. Did he do anything else? Does Luck happen pre or post Black Hat? Pre.

That's like 2013. Luck is pre, yeah. do anything does luck happen pre or post pre black that's like 2013 yeah because in 2016 ferrari is actually announced as his next movie starring christian bale yes and then at some point it becomes a hugh jackman project yes and then it vanishes this is what i want to dig into a lot but uh uh bill we had you on for that we had you on for uh dunkirk true we had you on for lorenzo's oil which is one of your favorite movies of the night but i feel like nolan and man are like two of your titan guys that i think i always look to you i'm always excited to read your writing on either of those guys and their work and your reviews and their interviews and all that um and then we see ferrari's finally coming out uh oh perfect opportunity to have bill gone again

uh i run into you marie and i run into you at a screening of uh oppenheimer and we're talking to you and you were like i should do the podcast again we're like yeah you should how long has it been like six months and you were like no i was the last pandemic happened you were the last in-person record you were the last time we ever went into the audio boom offices to do the lorenzo's oil episode it's been far too long but the great bill gabir is here talk about ferrari a movie you said you have seen six times and you walked in okay he walked in david he walked in he said i'm actually sorry i meant to watch it again last night and i didn't get the chance and i said how many times have you seen he said six bilga was apologizing for not watching it a seventh time and i said well how recently was

the last time you watched it and he went last week so bilga i've called you out for this you uh you often will do this well you'll be like i watched that movie three times i still just don't like it i'm like how are you watching it three times bilka you watch all these movies so many times i don't know how they're like pieces of music you know you got to go back to them hell yeah yeah i i it's a scheduling thing only for me but when because it's one thing ferrari you seeing over and over again not too surprising to me but like what's a movie you didn't like this year that you kept trying to crack i feel like we talk about this sometimes this year like where you're like i just you know i just watched leave the world behind twice yeah well that's actually and it is kind of the worst movie i've seen this

year you hated that yeah i hated it and yet you watched it again. Watching that two times is equivalent to you watching Ferrari 80 times. No, because I would still enjoy watching Ferrari 80 times. I'm just saying in terms of the effort. What's a movie you and I sort of disagreed on this year that you, I feel like often even with a movie that you are mixed on, but maybe people are fond of or there's, will then be like well let me spin it a couple more times to see if it gets me huh so a movie i disliked and you liked you know or because i know me but like maybe there was general consensus you hated silent night for example and i saw that three times but i liked silent you saw that three times yes do you know how many times david saw it less than one point Point two, three.

God, no, more than that. But in some of these cases, it's because I'm writing about the movies that I have to watch. And like Ferrari, I was, you know, I mean, I did the review. The first time I saw Ferrari, it was not entirely finished. So I had to kind of watch it again. Oh, again, of course, right. And then the third time I saw it was, I'm sorry, I could spend all day talking about different circumstances. Once again, this is why you were here.

The third time I saw it, it was actually, I was at the Venice Film Festival. And I had just, because of the dumb ferries that you have to take to get to the festival venues, I had just missed a screening of Poor Things by like 15 minutes. And it was morning on the Lido and I was just sitting there like nothing to do, nowhere to go. And I saw that there was a screening of Ferrari starting in like 10 minutes. I was like, fuck it, I'm going to go see the Ferrari again. And then I got this call a few days later

because I was supposed to interview Michael Mann in Modena while I was there at Venice, and I got a call from his people saying, Michael is screening the film tonight in Modena. Right. I remember this. This was an adventure. Which is, of course, where the film is set, where Ferrari's factory was. Yeah, he's screening it for the Ferrari

factory workers and the people who worked on it. Everyone gets a jug of balsamic vinegar on their way out. I wish, yeah. But wasn't the screening, the first half of the movie screened at one woman's house, and then you had to drive across town, and the second half of the movie was screened at a different woman's house? I don't know. Oh, oh, oh.

I think that's a good catch. That's a good catch. That's a good catch. Sorry, sorry. That briefly just sounded like some Venice Film Festival shit. Suddenly I was like, where is he going with this? I think that joke is going to linger. That joke will, people will initially be like, oh, the accent didn't land for oh that joke will people initially be like oh the

accent didn't land for me but then they'll be like yeah this is the part of the podcast where i get daggers stared at me by my wife it's like who are these women whose homes you're seeing for holding a gun at you yeah exactly okay so right so you saw it in modena and then you and you walked around modena with uh. Mann later on, right? Yes, we can talk about that. That's great. And did you see it in New York? I did see it in New York.

I saw it in New York because I just wanted to see it again and then I wanted to see it again, again. So did you see it commercially ever? Like, did you go to a theater? No, it's not out yet. No, it's not out yet. At the time we're recording this,

it's not out yet. Yeah, I mean, no, they were all screening rooms except for the one in Modena, which was in like a big multiplex. And that was, I think, the biggest screen I've seen it on. Yeah. It was a great theater, by the way. Modena has nicer theaters than New Haven. Well, New Haven called out.

Never been to Modena. Would love to go. I saw this film at the Dolby 88 a totally nice screen with very good sound which is crucial and there were like four of us in there it was an early screening

because I was going to interview a man and about 20 minutes in a guy started vaping which I've never seen in a press screening have I told this story?

I don't think so and then about 20 minutes later he started taking pictures of the screen cool and I had this thought of like well because it was such

aberrant behavior of like i guess he's do was asked to do that by the studio maybe like i was just kind of like why would he be doing this then he started filming the screen and manola dar just ran over to him and said what are you doing oh yes i put his phone away yeah she said owen owen She said, Owen, Owen, stop doing that. I didn't say that. No, it was not Owen. It was a rando and it was crazy, but it didn't really disturb my viewing of the film, but it was odd. And then I saw it again recently just to refresh

because it's been a while. Yeah. So I saw this movie this time of year, especially when we're trying to get these end of the year new release movies done and get the episodes banked up. I mostly find ways to weasel my way into guild screenings and award season screenings. push frameworks where the movies are being hard sold and you know whatever so i saw this with a man driver woodley q a the the three the three amigos the three stooges okay man driver and woodley um three taciturn folk i will say woodley probably the most talkative of those three. Correct. Yes. Yeah. It was just an hour of all three of them saying pass to every question. No, it was like a good Q&A. But, you know, sometimes it's like you get and festivals can be the same thing where you're like,

is there a sort of halo effect bump I'm getting of this movie being presented to me in the best environment possible with the context provided around it with the filmmakers allowing to like put their own framework around it and other times it's the worst feeling in the world to watch someone do a q a for a movie that you're like i fucking hated this this is like watching someone try to do a victory lap for a failure or whatever i do not dislike this movie okay Okay. I would say I put it towards the bottom of my man rankings, but I also like

every movie he's made, including The Keep, which is obviously a fundamentally broken movie, but that I have a lot of love for. But he is a guy that I have fairly

high standards for. I love a lot of his movies. Yeah, I'm not sure where I would put this. I don't know where you'd put this. But like Blackhead, a movie that all three of us are smart, clever big boys about and understood was brilliant from the beginning.

And now other people have joined our island. That's a movie where I was like, day one, this rules. People are dumb, right? And so I know this movie's been, like, not dramatically divisive. I don't think anyone is laughing at this at the way that people were at Black Hat upon first release. But I think there's been some variance of, like, Bilge, you, like, wrote this review. anyone is laughing at this at the way that people were at black hat upon first release but i think there's been some variance of like bilga you like wrote this review i was like holy fucking shit here we go bilga's take on ferrari is what i want he's describing exactly the movie i want to see

and then i sat there and watched it and i felt a little bit like i wish i was watching the movie that bilga described fucking bilga lied to me and not nothing you lied to me i'm just like i believe everything you're describing and that's the relationship the experience i wanted to have and then i bring up the q a thing only because then man who seemingly has the no man's brain has a greater capacity for information where you're just like the fucking stats this guy rattles off for any question where you're just like the fucking stats this guy rattles off for any question where you're like he's retained every piece of trivia he's ever read on every subject right if you bring up an older movie he immediately will launch into that

kind of stuff right yeah so as you said like those three are a little bit taciturn in general for a q a like that but people were asking him the right questions. Yeah. And he was giving you, like, Michael Mann 15 minutes explaining the history of Moderna or whatever. And I was just like, fuck, this is also the movie I want to see. Like, man talking about the movie was gripping me in the way that reading your review gripped me. And watching it, I was like, I like this. But it was not totally.

I wonder. Oh, so. No, I just, you know you talk you know but i was gonna say i i wonder if sometimes that kind of anticipation works against it too because because we were talking about movies that i don't like that i've seen multiple times there are some films that that i didn't like initially or was somewhat underwhelmed by initially based on my anticipation of them and then over the years i just kept returning to them and now now admire the age of innocence is is one of the classic one for me where i mean it was like one of the great disappointments of my life because it was like like one of my favorite novels you know my favorite directors my three favorite actors working at that time you know and

i'd heard that before he screened before he made the film scorsese screened like the leopard and barry lyndon for his for his um for his uh you know for his cast included my two of my three favorite movies and um and so i went into age of innocence justence just like, like, let's fucking go, you know? And then I was like, oh God, no. What? Why? You know? And over the years, I would come back to it because there were so many beautiful things about it. Like, the score is great.

You know, the production design. And its reputation has only improved since it came out. When it came out, it was seen as quite disappointing. Yeah. People forget this. And now, I still have a couple of issues with the film, but I really love that film now. And whenever it screens theatrically anywhere, I try to see it. of movies where I can read both the best and worst reviews and be like, this sounds like my shit.

Right. The things people are criticizing this movie for sound like I'd be into it. And the things people are praising the movie for sound like I'd be into it. And so I just went in with a pretty settled, I'm probably going to connect to this. Yeah. For a movie that it feels like the response has been a little more, there's, I don't know if I'm reading anyone. Pretty muted.

That's what I was going to say. Pretty muted. And a lot of people... Don't you think? I feel like people generally like it. I think I've read... Like, not love, though. Yeah.

Well, I mean, some people love it. And, I mean, it, like, made the AFI top 10 list. It did. And the NBR. And the NBR. Yeah. I mean, so it's getting acclaim. It is.

I am curious to see what happens. I guess at that point, this podcast will have come out already is. I am curious to see what happens. I guess at that point this podcast will have come out already. But I am curious to see what happens when it actually comes out in theaters. I was just considering this. Look, I really like this movie, but I also, I was not underwhelmed by it exactly. But I did not walk out being like, that movie is really going to appeal to everybody. No, sure. movie is really gonna appeal to everybody i walked out being like that is you know a movie called ferrari that yes it's about racing and it's about masculinity and it's about like the things that

compel us to do to drive a car fast which is is is a fundamentally silly thing to do or create death defying thing to do but also a lot of people are going to walk out being like why was it about like a 50 something guy's marriage like it right like also not not to flatten discourse no no i know not to flatten discourse in this way right but like the last in the gap since black hat i think there has been a growing appreciation for the like michael man just feel it pure vibes don't get caught up in the logic right but this is not that no this is like the insider the movies like miami vice and black hat that were like pretty mocked when they came out seen as financial disasters this doesn't make sense this is illogical these performances are silly whatever it is there's there's really been

a contextualization of them and the reclamation of them in a broader sense and almost like a theology built around them. And so there's a moment where you're like culture might be ready for the new Michael Mann movie, ready to receive it more warmly than the last couple. And then he's not doing that, as you're saying. Right. Because and there's also the sense of kind of modernity and always kind of forward-looking quality to those films. I mean, they're about technology. Right. They're suffused with technology. And this one is not.

I mean, this one is almost quaint in that sense. I mean, I actually love the fact that he did not make anything remotely like the film I thought it was going to be. Me too. See, this is the thing. I do too. This is one of those movies where I'm like the film I thought it was going to be. Me too. See, this is the thing. I do too. This is one of those movies where I'm like, in talking about it, it's almost going to be impossible for me to identify anything I found underwhelming about it. Because just on a textual level, not even like what the movie is doing textual,

but describing the way in which it's doing it, in the same way that when I read your review, I'm like, yeah, that sounds like something i would love yeah now did when you saw a man um talk he has this winter jacket on the entire time by the way a big puffy that's where all the information is stored actually he does actually when a couple of times a couple of times when i've interviewed him he he sometimes will have like a little notebook with him really full of scribbles he never he never looks at it yeah but but i remember when we did the the bam q a many years ago 2016 um he was he was looking through it beforehand and i was like oh what are you looking at he's like yeah just just trying to remember all the proper names it's just and then of course

and then he's just on and doesn't forget a thing. A thing. Yeah. A thing. And it's like he can, you can ask him any sub-question and it'll branch out into a fully developed tree. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing you can catch him off guard, it feels like. He does have like kind of these, they're not canned answers, but they're sort of answers that he often gives, but they're like good answers. That's the thing. And they're paragraphs long.

They're paragraphs long and they make perfect sense and they're really insightful. The other thing I was going to say about, no, sorry, the reason I was asking about his Q&A, because the thing he told me when I interviewed him that I found fascinating and I saved some of that from my interview for another piece I'm going to write, but he was really obsessed about the fact that the film is like fundamentally unresolved like this conflict or the the conflicts in the film are fundamentally unresolved and that was one of the things that really attracted him to it yeah so there's and and and that's something that because i love the film the first time i saw it but there was something about it that i remember feeling like this is great i love this but it sort of ends in a very strange way in a very understated muted weird way and then i will say one of the nice i mean this is one of the things i love about

re-watching movies certain movies is every time i see one of these films i mean barry lyndon is like this days of heaven is like this thin red line is like this conformist is like this oppenheimer is like this movies sure but like but like every time i watch it i notice something else about it that moves me like like the point in the movie when i cry is different each time I watch it. In this movie specifically? You're saying in these types of films? In these types of films and in this movie too. Can I ask the moments that have made you cry across the six times you've watched this film? Well, the first time I saw it, I didn't know anything about the Mila Mila race.

I've been denied. Also, they shouldn't have done that, in my opinion. The race? Yeah, they shouldn't have been doing that. Racing is bad. Yeah, same. I think the message of... Where Jordan Hoffman after he saw Gran Turismo where he started texting all of us being like,

what the fuck is this? And we were like, what do you mean? He's like, they drive the cars around? And they might kill someone? I ran into... Were you not aware of racing? And I had just seen Ferrari. And I remember Jordan talking about it.

He killed a guy. He killed a guy. I'm like, oh, what do you see? Fucking Ferrari. And I remember Jordan like talking about it. He killed a guy. He killed a guy. I'm like, oh, what do you see? Fucking Ferrari. After the screening, I ran into an old family friend who I had not seen

in maybe 15 years. And we just talked about that for 20 minutes. There was like two seconds of like, how are you doing? What are you up to? Why would anyone

fucking do this? A thousand miles through Italy. And we were almost in a hushed tones where we were like, I just kind of can't get past how insane this is. So you didn't know about the Mille Miglia, which is the were almost in hushed tones. We were like, I just kind of can't get past how insane this is.

So you didn't know about the Mille Miglia, which is the big race in this film in 1957. I mean, I knew that there was such a race. I did not realize that that race had ended in 1957 after what happened during this movie. I saw a review say it is one of the most horrific things I have seen depicted in a film in decades. And I'm like, that is not hyperbolic. No. depicted in a film in decades and i'm like that is not hyperbolic no when this thing happens and we're assuming that everyone who listens to this episode has either seen the movie or is willing to have it ruined or is aware that they've been talking about it candidly for months which is sort of interesting like man was candid about it in the first article about this movie of like yeah

we depict the mila mila disaster right the incident itself is truly horrific. And I think the film depicts it so incredibly and viscerally in a way that is not exploitative, but is like kind of jaw dropping in the horror of it. Have you seen that there is archival footage of 19, I believe it's the 1955 Le Mans race. Okay. When something like that happened, although it was Le Mans. Huge disaster. It was like 83 people died or something. And you see it. It's a shot. I mean, it happens a lot faster

because in real life it happens. I mean, it's actually kind of slowed down in Ferrari, but it's the scariest thing you've ever seen. I mean, it's horrible. It's horrible. It just slices through this crowd. You're like, if Michael Mann showed this happening at real speed, it would be like a jump scare where someone's face just transforms. Yeah.

Right? Where you're like, your eyes wouldn't even be able to process how quickly that amount of carnage. But sorry, I cut you off. You were saying he was talking about... Oh, no, but the thing was that, well, you had asked me what scenes in the movie make me cry. The first time I saw it, because I didn't know this, that scene just absolutely wrecked me. It's devastating. And then, of course, the scene early on when he visits his son's grave. And then different times, different other things have really moved me. And the thing that really moves me now is, I mean, that final moment when...

With the sun? recognize piero with the name ferrari as long as she's alive the the first time i saw the film i remember thinking huh that's kind of a like kind of a dick move of her right um and and but then i when i saw it again i i realized you know this woman is is imprisoned by her grief. And for her, that scene early on when they both visit the tomb separately and driver's like talking to, or Enzo is talking to, you know, his son,

his dead son. And, you know, he talks about how he sees him in his dreams and that's like the one face he does want to see because everyone else he sees in his dreams are people who died racing his cars um but after he leaves because he's crying and then after he leaves penelope cruz laura comes in and she has this like long close-up where she's

like it's like she's looking at dino and smiling and you realize for her even though he's gone he's he's he's still there some essence of him in her mind is still there and part of that is the fact that she's never processed her grief and she she essentially lives with the ghost of dino and if piero is recognized as a ferrari it's sort of dino yeah it's like it's like you know and finally goes away right and when i think about about that i just like i'm actually getting emotional now thinking about it and so when she says it is my wish that you do not recognize the boy with the name ferrari um it's not unspiteful. It kills me. It kills me. I mean, we're ping-ponging all around in conversation here,

but I think we just need to acknowledge, Penelope Cruz is, like, colossal in this thing. It is an unbelievable performance. She's so good. And she is someone I have a tremendous amount of respect and adulation for, but I was just, like, not prepared for. It is one of those performances that someone comes on screen and immediately is tapping into like a well

of emotion in an unshowy way in an unshowy way I mean it's a showy performance in that she's got it all over her face but this isn't like Vicky Christina Barber she's not screaming but you're just like oh my god she is in dialogue with something that feels so honest and so profound and it is in every inch of her body and she is maintaining that

for the entire film yeah there's this there's this other moment that i i only noticed upon subsequent viewings so early on when we see ferrari in that that that first scene when he's when he's you know creeping out of bed um and we you know, he looks in at Piero sleeping and we see in the background like the little toy cars. Right. And then later on when Penelope cruiser, when Laura visits the house and it's empty and she sees that car on the stoop, the toy car, and she looks at it and suddenly we see that this car is actually really old and and she realizes or we realize that was Dino's car and he gave it to the new son and he gave it to the new son and also that's how she realizes there's a boy in this house yeah um and the expression on her face again destroys me no dialogue There's no dialogue in the scene. And she's incredible. That's something you get out of a rewatch.

I mean, yeah. Just to be clear, to just set up for anyone who maybe didn't see the film, this film's called Ferrari. It's about Enzo Ferrari, the creator of Ferrari. As Bilge says,

it's announced in 2016. This is a long-dressing passion project. Sure. I mean, we can do that. Yeah, we can do sort of the development of this movie, which is bizarre in a way. It's announced in 2016, but it is a movie he's been trying to make for 20-plus years.

It's the 90s. He's been cooking since the 90s. Yeah. And as he put it in the Q&A, he's not generally interested in Womb tomb biopics and even ali which covers the greatest span of life still it's still the middle chunk it's not right really right yeah and it's more of an essay film even though it's covering a wider span but he said when he found out that ferrari and i'm sure he's said similar things to you and said in a bunch of other places but the q a said like when i found out that basically like these three different things all came to a head within a week of his

life yeah it was kind of too dramatically perfect right that you could zoom in on this one moment essentially his business being in total crisis yeah his marriage i suppose already dissolved but like his marriage entering a new phase of crisis. And the Mille Miglia, which was this insane race that he needed to win for his business and his marriage, but also ended in the biggest disaster in the history of Italian racing or whatever. Right.

You know, like, this horrible cataclysm. But, like, all the contradictions within this guy came to a head within such a short span of time, and then, as you you said didn't resolve them that's the thing i feel like the problem must have been he's going to studios being like hey can i have 100 million dollars um ferrari's in his 50s uh he's gonna drink espresso and yell at people lots of people die yes he wins the race but under a total cloud of death yeah there's no ending and there's not much of an ending except

for he shows his son you know a nice place yeah and i just assume studios were throwing up their hands being like can't this be about like fucking winning formula one races or something like what's going on with you or about a guy who started out young and a racer and then became a success and along the way he's attached to ford versus ferrari too which is which is funny because i don't know if i didn't ask him this but i i don't know if like when he was making ford versus ferrari that was his way of like sort of channeling yeah that interest into a different movie right good but but of course ferrari's like nolan working howard hughes into dark knight rises where i did all this work that I need to put somewhere.

Right, or Barry Lyndon, like, basically says, okay, I have all the Napoleon stuff, let's do this movie. But like, Ferrari, both Enzo and the company, barely a character. That's a Ford movie. Like, that movie's about Ford. But Mann's version had a lot more Ferrari in it. Makes sense. That's not surprising. I mean, he had a whole thing about the palace intrigue around Ferrari

and his technicians and so, I mean, we went on a whole tangent about this when I interviewed him and then finally he said, I think it was probably a good decision

to cut all that stuff out. Did Mann end up with a producer credit on Ford? He has a producer credit but he got an Oscar nomination. Yeah, that's right. Because he's got, like, his few, his surprisingly few Oscar nominations in his career Did Mann end up with a producer credit on Ford? He has a producer credit. He got an Oscar nomination. Because he's got, like, his few,

his surprisingly few Oscar nominations in his career, two of them are for producing The Aviator and producing Ford v. Ferrari movies he then gave up. Right, movies he essentially was beaten out of making. He did not get an Oscar nom for Ford v. Ferrari, but he is a producer on it. Yeah. Or maybe an executive producer. He was an executive producer.

But, I mean, The Aviator, he was with The Aviator all the way. Oh, right. He had more. But he could have made a movie, right? He could have made

a Howard Hughes movie. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I interviewed him about it. Actually, this is a piece I still haven't written, but I talked to Michael Mann. Also, he has like

eight incredible pieces that no one has seen. I talked to Michael Mann for like an hour about The Aviator, which will one day hopefully be a piece. David yeah do me a favor yeah picture that thing you've always wanted to learn okay name it what is it the art of love okay now picture you they have one learning it from the person who's literally the best at it in the world. I bet you Masterclass actually does have like X on the art of love.

Yes. Right? Let's find out. Let's look it up. Because that's what you get with Masterclass. You get the best in the world teaching you how to become the best. And this year, 2024, you can learn from the best to become your best with Masterclass. Don't just talk about improving.

Masterclass actually helps you do it. They offer over 180 world-class instructors, so whether you want to master negotiation with Chris Voss, think like a boss with Martha Stewart. I mean, these are all going to help you in the art of love. Of course. We talked about many film-related classes they have on their site.

Look, I've got Emily Morse, the host of the podcast Sex with Emily. Okay. Sex and Communication. got Emily Morse, the host of the podcast Sex with Emily. Okay. Sex and Communication. It's sort of in the art of love realm. Uh-huh.

Okay, so maybe I'd go to her. Or maybe I would go to RuPaul, Self-Expression and Authenticity. Very crucial. Sure. They've got a lot in the lifestyle section.

You've got David Lynch on filmmaking creativity. You've got Helen Mirren and Samuel Jackson on acting. Yeah, you're sort of swerving us back to what our podcast topic. Trying to be a little more relevant, but I also like opening up the column of the love conversation. The thing about Masterclass that's kind of fun is you start clicking on some of those verticals. You'll be surprised what you find.

There's some cool stuff down there. The other thing with Masterclass, you get unlimited access to intimate one-on-one classes with the world's best. So you don't need to limit yourself to one or two lessons. You can venture, explore around, okay okay christina aguilera on singing well that's a thing i don't know how to do well she can teach you her unique vocal techniques and over three point hours of voice lessons anna wintour creativity and leaders ben guys i could learn some shit from anna wintour're going to have to wear sunglasses indoors. Yeah.

You're like, wait a second. I could do that. I could definitely do that. All right, look. They've got over 180 world-class instructors, like you said. Okay? It's unlimited access to intimate one-on-one classes with the world's best. I've learned so much from watching masterclasses on things that I never even thought.

Such as? What are some of your faves? You're a big fan. I'm a big fan. I always talk about the Helen Mirren one where she talks about how her starts with her walking across the stage and sitting in a chair

and saying that's the most difficult thing you can do as an actor and then she unpacks that. That's cool. Yeah. What can I tell you, though, that might really get you excited, Griffin, here in 2024?

I hate having to pay 100% of advertised price for anything. That's the thing I hate. I would love a class teaching me how to save 15%. For one, I just want to point out that every new membership comes with a 30-day

money-back guarantee. Well, that's pretty dang good. So you do have no risk there. Okay, I hate risk. But right now, our listeners will get an additional 15% off of an annual membership

at masterclass.com slash check. Get 15% off right now at masterclass.com slash check. Get 15% off right now at masterclass.com slash check masterclass.com slash check. This feels like a masterclass right now. You are teaching me how to save 15% on masterclass. Ben just sent Tony Hawk teaches skateboarding. Okay, well that

sounds cool. It is pretty cool. There's a barbecue one I watched that was really good. That sounds actually pretty useful. You actually like doing barbecue. I'm a grill boy. What would you say there, Ben? Cook or eat. Look up the guy who does the barbecue. He's some kind of renowned pit master. Yeah. Probably the Franklin guy. We'll never do,

but I watch it and I'm just like, it is fascinating to watch someone who knows this much about their chosen field. I could see you become a grill master. Really? Yeah, dude. Okay. It's one of those forms of cooking that i think is intuitive i would agree with that it's a little yeah it is intuitive that's a good way here's what i think it's patient here's the thing it's easy no yeah here's what's easier easy mac wait

a second this video step one by an iconic texas restaurant he's he's not even trying no he teaches you how to like smoke a pork butt teaches you how to smoke ribs qualities of different types of wood it's it's cool it gets you grilling broccolini at a certain point come on it's pretty fun masterclass.com slash check i mean we did it 15 off that's right i so i also interviewed michael man i didn't do as good a job as Bill probably we'll see I doubt this right after this I'm going to start

sifting through my it was two months ago that I did I'm going to find out that Ben interviewed Michael Mann he's on the Sleepy Time podcast

that would be incredible but he won't talk to me you know him at this point I think enough that you have probably you know an easier sort of

you know i'm terrified to meet this man he's a man who's very important to me famously chill i was afraid he'd be scary you were sort of like he's not scary he's not scary does he love small talk nice guy he was really pleasant he was like a very he's affable well the other thing i told you i think i think i told you this but like he's particularly affable and, and, and easygoing right now. I think he's really happy and relieved to have made this movie. Like, like I first interviewed him around the time of Black Hat and he was fine.

Like we had a perfectly nice conversation, but, but like he was tense, you know? Sure. And right. And then obviously that movie didn't work out and he feel like financially and he feels bad about it, I think.

And then, between Black Hat and Ferrari, I feel like he then entered this weird phase of like everyone being like, you're the best, man. We're talking about all your old movies.

This is what I'm saying. There became this real like, you know what, this guy's one of the living masters. And I'm sure he appreciates that, but he's also like, yeah, I'd like to also

make some new shit before I go. It was this thing, these guys get into this place very often where they're like doing career retrospectives and being flown around the world to festivals and like their old films are being revived and they're getting like these standing ovations. And then it's like, why won't people give me money to make a new thing? I'm still here. I'm still active. I'm ready to go.

Well, that's the thing. It's like, I mean, I've interviewed him maybe a dozen times over the years, but it's all been between Black Hat and this movie. Sure. And it's been for old movies. Yeah, it's been like, you know, there's a re-release of Ali coming up. You know, there's a, you know, there's been a Heat anniversary, you know, or Heat 2 or, I mean, the books that he's published, you know. I mean, that's the thing. He's like, you know.

Working. He's working. He's always working. I mean, that's the thing he's like you know working he's working he's always working i mean that's the thing he he would always say is or like you know insider had had a screening at momo i interviewed him for that it's like it's all the old stuff which is great which i actually love i actually prefer to talk to people about the old stuff than the new stuff honestly because when you're talking about the new stuff you can't get into like quote-unquote spoilers you can't get into how people eventually felt about the movie because you don't know. You can't get into the cultural relationship. And they're in promo mode.

And they're in promo mode, so they don't want to be as candid. Right. Even off the record, they're not candid, you know, with the new stuff. Unless you're Martin McDonagh, one of my favorite interviews I ever did. The only guy to ever just physically hit stop on my record over and over gonna be like let me say this thing and i'll be like all right martin that's the dream it is awesome but he's an older man he had this giant binder filled with technical nonsense he kept getting phone calls from his post house you know who were working on like the dolby print or whatever and

he would like talk to them in literally fucking binary code is what it sounded you know like just suddenly he launches into you know a highly highly intense you know technical discussion of like well the blacks are need to be this number or whatever and then i would ask him about it and he'd be like explaining it to me and i would just like i didn't know what he was talking about you know which is great is great. He is constantly in that mode. When I talked to him in Modena, because I was telling him, oh, you know, because I'd just seen the film again

the night before, I was like, oh, it was interesting seeing it with an Italian audience because they respond to different things. Or also Modena audience because they know much more about the subject. Also, some of them work at Ferrari.

And the first thing he said was, yeah, I don't like how uh they're you know they're like reading the subtitles uh when I want them to be looking at the actors faces so I've decided I'm gonna dub the movie for Italian release wow and I was like I mean the Italians dub a lot of movies but the ideal for a lot of filmmakers is that they'd be subtitled and he was just like no I'm gonna dub it don't look at my words yeah well okay so i don't know so this script is credited to troy kennedy martin who is god bless him not alive yes and not only is he not alive he died in 2009 yeah so it's an old script he's like the guy who wrote the

italian job like that's what i know him as yeah he's sort of a well-known guy i guess he's sort of like a he did some tv too i mean a solid screenwriter. But not a ton of credits. No. Red Heat? Yeah. Belushi Schwarzenegger? Yeah. But, uh...

So, I guess this script probably existed in some form in the 90s. I don't know who, if anyone, he was thinking about in the 90s. Like, I don't... It's only in 2016 when it's Bale as Ferrari as the first actor announced, right? Which makes sense. You know,

they've worked together, but in a supporting role, it makes sense. Bale feels like a perfect Michael Mann lead. Yeah. An insane person.

Yes. Is that what you mean? An insane, obsessive person. I mean, Bale's not insane, but he's a hardworking, intense dude. And I think that's why he winds up not doing the movie, because he's like, oh, I would have to gain like 50 pounds or 100 pounds.

He can't help but gain 50 pounds and remove his voice box and replace it with an Italian voice box. Meanwhile, Adam Driver's just like, give me the fat suit. Give me a fucking pillow and I'll, yeah, you know, just sort of go like this. But there's a lot of that with Bale where they're like, right, parts that you hear he's flirting with for a long time and then he goes like i couldn't crack it and everyone's like just do what you're doing right now and he's like no i failed i'm walking away right i couldn't get the look i couldn't get the voice i couldn't transform myself in the way i wanted to what's he so i haven't seen amsterdam is he doing something in that he's doing a lot of stuff yeah he's definitely doing something because you look at him and a lot of stuff. Oh, yeah. He's definitely doing something.

Because you look at him and he's got facial hair or whatever, but it doesn't look like he's... Glass eye? Oh, yeah. Did he pluck out one of his... Christian! Absolutely. He's like, all right, here we go. He's got a glass eye. Okay.

He's doing an accent. He's doing a million things. He's doing a million. Oh, yeah. He is doing an accent. He's doing kind of like a Brooklyn, New York kind of... Yeah. I also didn't see the movie where, is he Edgar Allan Poe?

No. Harry Melling is Edgar Allan Poe, but he's helping him solve a crime or something? Yeah. Yeah. Did anyone see that movie? I saw that movie three times. That's impossible. That's impossible.

You saw that movie three times. People kind of liked it. I liked it. I feel like the reaction to that movie was muted. It was a Netflix release, so it doesn't exist. That hurts it. I liked it. I feel like the reaction to that movie was muted. It was a Netflix release, so it doesn't exist. That hurts it. Right.

He did play a god killer in Thor Love and Thunder. Oh, sure. And he killed gods himself with his own hand. And he was the only good thing in that movie. I still have not seen that movie.

It's the only Marvel movie I haven't seen. It's a dreadful film. I agree with you. He is good. He's genuinely invested in doing something in it but he's like kind of playing like the child catcher like it's a very over the top fun super serious film performance and he gets that movie on a level that no one else involved with that film

because because i mean because fair admission i i i like taiko itt still even though he's made a number of films I don't like. But all his films are about, like, these characters who are discovering that their entire system of belief is bullshit. They're not a liar. Right, right, right. And that is the part that Christian Bale is playing in Thor Love and Thunder.

Nobody else seems to understand it, including the fucking director. Including the director, who may be understood at some point, but then kind of forgot, I guess. But it's like, why Hunt for the Wilderpeople

is great, because Sam Neill understands how to both play the comedy of the movie and play what you're talking about honestly. Right. On a smaller scale.

Yeah, yeah. And when it all just becomes silly, banana, goofy bullshit, you're just like, does anyone care? Why am I watching this? You know? And as in all just becomes silly, banana, goofy bullshit, you're just like, does anyone care? Why am I watching this?

You know? Yeah. And as in all things, Christian Bale turns out to be the one person on set who cared. Yeah. And then, you know, it is odd that Christian Bale ends up doing Ford v. Ferrari basically instead of this. Yeah. And he's very good in that film. I think he's great good in that i think he's great uh and that and i also really like that movie but it's like a fun rollicking dad movie that like takes you inside a story but not in some like hyper

emotional way it's a good movie it's a very good movie i think mangled is not great at like michael mann style deep operatic emotion that movie makes me feel like it's not like it's nothing but also what's interesting about that movie is that's textually what it's basically about, right? Yeah. That Mangold is the Matt Damon character. Right. And Christian Bale is more of a Michael Mann type. And Matt Damon's like, can we just like get a movie that will make like 115 domestic?

Can we just like, we don't need to win Oscars here. We don't need to get the best reviews of our career. Is this something Mann talked about where he's like, that guy killed himself, and I would have made that explicit, and the movie doesn't, right? The end, Christian Bale dies. We're just spoiling every movie with Ferrari in the title, I guess. Right? Yeah, absolutely.

He said that. But I think that speaks to what you're talking about, which is that it's like, yes, Mangold is Matt Damon, and he's like's like listen just lose the race it's fine it will be fine right and michael man and michael man is like in the you know driving the car and he's like i'm gonna fucking kill myself you know like this is the this is the dynamic yeah and i think like james mangle thinks of himself as like one of the last high level journeyman filmmakers

right where it's like i'm serious minded enough that i can elevate material in the studio system with good people and make it better than it has any excuse to be but maybe i could never make something that is like a deeply personal expressive masterpiece i i i will say i really like mangle he's made a couple of really great films. He has made multiple films that I love. He's made a few films I honestly don't like.

But that movie is so much about being like... That's a movie to me about like, all the executives I work with are dumb. But I also understand

that telling them all to go fuck themselves doesn't help my movie. I need to figure out which concessions to make to still do something I can be proud of. But Christian Bale's the guy who's just fuck themselves yeah doesn't help my movie i need to figure out which concessions to make yeah to still do something i can be proud of but christian bale's the guy who's just like fuck you it's all or nothing yeah no exactly and mangled i mean mangled if you look at his early career is the

like he had a couple of false starts yeah and then and then sort of and then he makes heavy and he makes cop land and it looks like he's going to be this auteur and then Copland doesn't quite do what it's and then you know Harvey Weinstein Copland had too much baggage like it's Weinstein

it's like can Stallone be serious like people were too and it's a good movie yeah it's a very good movie but you're right though I think there's a certain point

at which and I hate psychoanalyzing directors like that but I guess it's part of the job it's also this podcast's obsession, yes. No, but like he, you know, at some point, I think he realizes there's a way

that I can work within the system and still make the kinds of movies I want. And then every once in a while, he maybe makes a movie he doesn't want. But, you know, no, you're right. Maybe about like night and day or whatever. But I mean, my thing, and I think Griffin agrees with me,

is like i actually prefer his more uh commercial less serious comic book movie the wolverine to his hyper serious like quite prestigey comic book movie that got us nominations logan but ford v ferrari almost feels like a movie about logan where it's like look i played the game and the prize was i got to make logan a movie that never should have been made in that style at that level and it was a huge hit and it got oscar nominations but like it was all long-term strategy of like building up the goodwill where they were like will you let me stretch wolverine a little bit yeah into a different zone and people forget about logan

you know like we talk about i mean we talk about... A little bit. I mean, we talk about, like, what a, like, kind of monumental film, like, Black Panther was. Right. Because of the Oscar nominations. Yeah.

And people forget about Logan, you know? They do. Because, I guess, the X-Men franchise is so weird. Right. A forgettable franchise

that won't go away. But that's even for, like, compared to Black Panther, Logan is still the only superhero movie to get a screenplay nomination. I think so. Let's count Incredibles.

I don't. I don't count Incredibles. That's not based on a comic book. No. It's sort of based on a comic book, but it's not actually. Okay. Bale drops out. Paramount then announces that they bought the rights.

No, Paramount announces they bought the rights, then Bale drops out. Then in 2017, Jackman is announced. Noomi Rapace is being considered for the, I assume, the Penelope Cruz role. But then Paramount drops out, I assume over budget concerns and their general abandonment of all serious filmmaking

at that time, like 2017-ish. Not a great time for Paramount. Like sort of post-Brad Gray. Yes. Jackman is an actor I love. Uh-huh. I think you love him too, speaking of Logan.

When he is good, he is great. It's sort of hard for me to imagine him in this role. I can't imagine. I'd like, when I went- I'd kind of like to see it,

I guess. When I read that Jackman was involved, I was like, did I dream that? Because that doesn't seem like something that would actually happen. Like, it feels like Mann was like, I need a star that Jackman was involved, I was like, did I dream that? Because that doesn't seem like something that would actually happen. Like, it feels like Mann was like, I need a star that appeals to European audiences, right?

Because it's like, this movie's whole strategy, I assume, is partly based on like, well, maybe we'll sell tickets in Europe especially, right? And I think Jackman makes sense for that. I think in Europe more than in the States. Jackman's a pretty sunny actor, you know? He has more range than one. He does. I mean, again, Logan. The prestige.'s a pretty sunny actor you know he has more range than one he does i mean i'm getting logan the prestige is like you can do this sort of tortured spiral thing uh or or even you know what have i done sweet jesus what have i done i'm a thief in the night with my dog in the run i mean i guess like prisoners but to me i'm like prisoners is just

not what i want from jackman he can do but he's really good in that. Yeah. No, I think in Europe more than here in the States, like, if a superhero actor does a bizarre artsy film, American audiences are like, yawn, get back to the good shit. Yeah, right. And in Europe, like, if you're Wolverine once, your movies will basically make a bare minimum amount you can you can you can probably make a profit right if you just get like it's you know you hear these stories and ferrari seem to be

one of these movies where it's like there's a list of eight guys and if you can get one of these eight guys you have your financing for ferrari yeah right and bale makes perfect sense to be on that list and jackman makes perfect sense to be on that list. And then when, as you're setting up, it's like, okay, Jackman's attached, Paramount's dropped it, STX picks it up. They come in, yes, right. With Jackman still involved. Yes, and you're like, okay, shit, is this movie finally going to happen? And then the pandemic killed it, I believe. Or at least killed Jackman.

And then there's this sort of like very sudden announcement. The movie's still happening, it's Adam Driver, it's starting right away. Right. And Penelope Cruz and Chalene Woodley, of all people. And it's STX. Yes. Which was still a going concern, I guess, is now basically not. Has dissolved by the time the movie is now being released.

Which is great, though, because Neon winds up picking it up. And they're such a better company for that. A more competent. Neon would never be able to green light this movie at this budget but they can release it better than STX ever could yeah and give it

the kind of love that it probably needs yeah which STX was never going to do no it is fascinating to me I know he is

Kylo Ren right so like in a certain way it puts him on what we're talking about the Batman Wolverine tier he is obviously

20 years younger than the character he's playing, significantly younger than Bale and Jackman, the two guys he's talked about. He's a generation below those guys. Yes. Not, you know, in a bad way. Right.

And, like, outside of Star Wars and 65, which still is a little bit inexplicable, he has, like, really stuck to, no, I'm, like, using my star power to get the movies off the ground that don't get made anymore the auteur the auteur's dream project it is wild that he has become the one guy david and i have texted about this but like he is like if in the 70s deniro took every part that pacino hackman devol and hoffman played like he absorbed them all but beyond that

that he seems to be the one guy if you're like a legendary director with a spotty commercial record who has a passion project he's never been able to get off the ground you attach driver and it finally happens Ferrari happens Megalopolis happens fucking Don Quixote happens this guy can will the movies that no one else can get made when like for years you're like he he had this a-lister attached and they couldn't get the funding he had this guy he had tom cruise at his peak driver comes on the movie goes he's kind of a no bullshit actor i think right absolutely yeah you know like it's partly it's like it's not no offense to christian bale but it's not

christian bale where it's like he needs three months to go live in Antarctica. That's the other thing. Trevor does six movies a year. Yeah, he'll just show up and be like, what am I? I'm a cop. They're zombies. I know what to do. I think he is very studious. I think he is very collaborative, right?

I think he's just like a team player in addition to being a movie star. But it's just like, no, I'm here to serve this and like work with you well. this and like work with you well and i i have to imagine another part of it is that like he promptly has a pretty reasonable quote relative to his foreign sales value because he's not trying to get like 20 million dollar paychecks he's like just trying to build up an insane body of work and help these movies happen he's also incredibly confident i think i mean if you look at a film i mean if you look at the performance in Ferrari, that is a confident performance. I mean, that is a bold,

big, I'm going for it performance. But because we talked about Christian Bale and the whole, I know it's not correct to call it method, but because the thing I, I've quoted this a number of times but the thing i remember

that i find very touching is uh daniel day lewis a thing he once said to um uh his uh his co-star in the fighter who's oh samantha morton no in you mean in the boxer uh in in the boxer emily watson sorry sorry sorry uh emily watson was kind of the samantha morning right well it's fucking because of synecdoche where they're playing right that's right and i always play and emily was also like two oscar noms for this person i'm a great actor but wow she got two yeah the thing that emily watson asked daniel leo lewis was like why do you do it like this like why do you do you do, you know, why is this your process? And the thing he said was,

because I'm not a good enough actor to do it any other way, which I find very touching and incredibly revealing. Bale, basically, I have read, say, the exact same thing in different words, where he's just like, if I'm not doing this amount of work, it feels like I'm not doing work. The job feels silly and frivolous to me. It's not even like a self-importance thing.

But he's like, if I haven't thought through every element this seriously, I feel like I'm slacking off. I feel like what I'm doing doesn't have depth. And Philip Seymour Hoffman says the same thing or said the same thing where he was just like, I like I'm jealous of actors who I watch can just kind of like flip it on or flip it off right and i've tried giving performances where i didn't do this amount of work or intense like focus to see if i could go easier on myself and i think they're bad and that's the thing i was just i've got killian murphy on the mind because you know it's like award season got him on the line here he is um or killian phone is ringing i'm embarrassed that i'm doing this no but that was the thing that people told me when i when i interviewed them for oppenheimer

about killian murphy is just like he can just turn it on turn it off like he's not you're talking to him about the ball game and they call action and suddenly he's in character and it's just like a switch has been turned on right and i think there there are certain actors who talk a lot about their process in order to show off right but like bale uh lewis hoffman all feel like they come by this honestly this is just how they work they cannot work any other way but yes it does create this dynamic that's very different than driver where it just feels like you talk about him being confident you look at just the work he's done over the last 10 years.

You have to be supremely confident not only to say yes to all of those parts with all of those people in wildly different circumstances, but to be like, I can work at this speed. Oh, yeah. I can just keep going from one thing to another

and taking huge swings. It's a useful trait. Yeah. And I got eight inches on Oscar Isaac isaac so he's so fucking tall like his height is so pivotal to his performance in this movie i think oh yeah because him is this kind of like frankenstein lumbering around sipping espressos and looking like he wants to walk off the edge of a cliff like just doesn't make the same sense if he's small because everyone's kind of scared of this guy right yes like and he is this like gruff boss who watches like another guy just like fucking

crash his car and like fly out of it and die and he's just like you know like and then like if he's a little guy he would need nerviness i think or because it's like how the hell does this guy run this company like this and get away with it? Sure, sure. And they call him Il Commendatore, which I guess is— Which he's demanded to be called, right? Yeah. This is a real thing. And I guess it was a relatively common sort of term of respect in Italy.

But I think I said this in my review. Il Commendatore is also the statue, the haunted statue that comes to life at the end of Don Giovanni, Mozart's Don Giovanni. Oh, yeah? Cool. Notably recreated in Amadeus, but... Where he's, like, pointing and saluting. But that's kind of the character he's playing, too. It's like, you know, it's like a statue come to life. It's really, like, something

almost mystical about his presence. So I just, like i i think i really struggled with the age thing in a thing in a way i rarely do because i actually don't demand literalism in my casting and performance usually my judgment of the two right yes and i was this is clearly your problem you're having some issue bridging the gap between yeah yes and like i was thinking as a counterpoint to this like a movie i love is assassination of jesse james in which everyone's age is wildly wrong it is a movie where when any actor states how old they're supposed to be you're like that is insane right like brad pitt's 20 years older

than jesse james was when he died right and looks it. And Sam Shepard is his brother and is like 30 years older than him. And they're like, we're two 30 somethings. And you're like, no, you're not. And I don't care. Like I watch it and I don't care. And I remember seeing it with friends and being like, what the fuck? And I'm like, it doesn't matter. I basically follow the mood. Right. It doesn't matter. I don't care that they're not trying to make them seem younger. I don't care that they're not trying to adjust the ages to fit the actors. I don't care. Everyone spiritually is locking into what I think that character needs. And I don't know if it's something about the like the need to put the prosthetics and the padding on him right the need to do the accent on top of it where it feels like there is a certain theatricality to this performance of driver needing to play the age rather than just what i think he often does in a way that works for me of just like i'm confident

enough that even though i don't seem like an obvious casting choice for this i'm just going to stand so firm in my commitment to playing this guy that your reality, your notion of this character warps around what I'm doing. And the fact that, like, he's doing more of a voice than he usually does, he's changing his look

more than he usually does, for some reason just kept on underlining to me the gap between who he is right now and what he's playing in a way that maybe just made me feel like

I would love to see him give this performance made me feel like I would love to see him give this performance in 20 years. I would love to see him be this age where he can just roll this shit off of him. You know?

Well, he probably will. He will. Yeah, I mean, right. Driver's definitely not an actor where I'm like, this guy's gonna lose it as he gets older. I'm like,

this is probably only gonna get better. Right. Well, it's like Russell Crowe in Russell Crowe. This guy's juiceless. Like Russell Crowe in The Insider. That's another one where it's like, it's like Russell Crowe in Russell Crowe. This guy's juiceless. Like Russell Crowe

in The Insider. That's another one where it's like he's a young man playing an older man and actually kind of, you know, aged kind of into that.

Yeah, he did. I mean, The Insider is the best companion in man's filmography to this movie, right? Absolutely. Down to him using literally the same,

the first thing I said to you after I saw it, I was like, did he just fucking use the Lisa Gerrard score again? Yeah. In the big operatic moment i said to you after i saw it i was like did he just fucking use the lisa gerrard score again yeah in the big operatic moment again and you were like david you and i are the only people who care about like he doesn't think anyone cares about that can i tell you the explanation he gave at the q a please yeah was you know they they cut the movie to temp tracks and he's like well you know i like the score for the other movies i've done so well

i'll often tell him to throw those scores in, right? Right. And he's watching it. And then over time, you're like, well, we can replace that. We can put something else in here. And then you don't want it, I guess. And then he just looked and he was like, I'm not getting anything better than that. It is good. And it was like, I don't care if I've used it in another movie.

Yeah. It's just, I'm not topping that. She's a, what's it called? Dead Can't Dance, right? That was her big, like, electronic grip in the 80s or whatever. Lisa Gerrard. And he loves that score. He loves that score.

It's good. It's a great score. He's talked about that score multiple times. When you were describing Driver's performance just now, I kept thinking of opera. Like, you're basically describing

what happens in opera, right? Where, you know, a 70-year-old soprano can play, you know, someone's, you know, virginal 20-year-old daughter or whatever. I mean, like, opera turns on these kinds of suspensions of disbelief. Yes, that's a good point.

Right. And the film is very operatic kind of like you know what does he look like you know and this is the thing i agree with you and i'm the person usually saying this to other people who i think are being persnickety and i'm like who gives a shit it's like art it's expression right um i think there's something about his performance being by that very nature in such a different pitch than everyone else in the movie. Right. Where we're saying like what Penelope Cruz is doing is feel so bone deep and unshowing.

Where you're like she's just holding this thing inside of her spirit and there's nothing being pushed out of her. Then a lot of the cast is like real middle aged Italian guys. He's sharing a lot of scenes with the real versions of what he's playing like the sort of ensemble around him right right the ferrari guys the guy cutting his hair is is the son of the barber the actual barber who cut enzo ferrari's hair shailene is her own thing which we can maybe talk about that's that's a little five minute area we need to discuss sure but i think usually i want like if if there's going to be a central performance like this i want the rest of the movie to be supporting it in tone and style whatever it was and i felt some disconnect and

this was my other thing with the movie i feel like if if i'm trying to instill the cornerstone of what i like about man right it's's this weird friction between the operatic nature of his emotion and the drama of what he's doing and this sort of obsessive, gritty, detail-oriented, micro-intensity, right? And it's these two things in contrast with each other. The hugest and the biggest and the tiniest uh and you know operatic movies about men who cannot express a single emotion and all that sort of stuff and this felt to me more and even though insider is the closest analog in his filmography this felt to me like the first michael man movie i've seen that is more mid-tones where it felt like the bigger stuff was smaller than it

usually is and the smaller stuff to me felt bigger than it usually is um interesting if that makes any sense i don't know it is a quiet movie in a in in surprising ways yeah i think like the dialogue is often quiet his he doesn't roar at people really you know even when like terrible things are happening which may have been what ferrari was like i have no idea that's the thing that i've from from what i gather enzo was kind of that kind of character who sort of took like swallowed up all the oxygen in the room right um so i think that's a choice uh but it's an interesting point you make in terms of you know not feeling like everyone else was supporting him i don't get that sense but but yeah you know i can totally you know it's not i guess it's less like i there's a failing of other people not supporting him

properly or the matched or whatever differently than whatever the performances around yeah and i like i could see the movie in which i love that performance let's talk about shailene woodley we just have to do it so she's in this film i would say this this performance is i would say unpopular so far so far yeah i know you're you're basically fond of it yeah i think she's good i kind of like it too but it's obviously a bit of a swerve for italian yeah she's really not giving italian to me again stereotypical italian i understand italians can be all kinds of people but in a movie where people are again sipping espresso and getting haircuts sure like italians like or whatever like she feels a little different there's also the bit of you know i know this is now an off-repeated sort of

verbal meme but that's a face that's seen a smartphone thing yes i'm a little sick of that i'm a little sick of it i don't i don't of it. All these faces you've seen in smartphones. I don't believe that. Like, I don't, I mean, no, I get the criticism, but like, she actually seems pretty classical to me. She's very pretty. She's a very, like, pretty actor, right? Like, she's got a nice face. Yes. Like, she's not like someone where you're like, oh, with like a sharp and sort of angular and like, you know, like, she's very warm and pretty. But like Sarah Gaidon, who's in this film as well.

She is. Who I like, Sarah Gaidon, who's in this film as well. She is. Who I like a lot. Big fan. Is someone where, like, wow, you can basically drop her into any time period in any genre, and her look makes sense, right? She's a very striking, pretty woman, but I'm like, you can put her in, like, weird Cronenberg-y future. You can put her in, like, the Italian countryside in the 40s. Royal night out. Right. Obviously, yes, David, as you said in the 40s. Royal night out. Right.

Obviously, yes, David, as you said, all of these people have seen smartphones. Yes. Well. But I do think there's something. Maybe Adam Driver hasn't. It's believable that he might not have. Right. But something about Shailene feels very modern to me.

And it's not a look thing. It's an energy thing. I think it's a fair point. But I think he wants her to feel modern. I think that's part of the idea there. I'm cool with her feeling different. Right. Right, which is sort of her role.

Which I meant. Right, right. She's this other thing he's going to that's so separate. She's a wildly different generation. She's the polar opposite of Penelope Cruz. Yes. Like, Penelope Cruz is, like, I mean, her character might as well have, like, a dark cloud following her around, raining on her, you know? Right.

She looks like a paid Italian mourner. Yeah. Like, you get her to show up to your funeral and go like, I love Kim! You know, like, that's what she looks like the whole time. Yeah. And Shailene Woodley is, like, just softness and light. And that's kind of the idea. I mean, that's why he wants to be with her.

I mean, that's why Man City cast her, is that, like, energy, right? Like, that's what he wants to be with her. I mean, that's why man said he cast her. Is that like energy, right? Like, that's what he told me. It is a performance where I just wish they'd been like, you know what, you don't even have to worry about the accent. Because I do feel like 10% self-consciousness of like trying to get her handle on it. And I think the performance is very quiet in a way that is effective,

especially in contrast to uh penelope cruz and feels deliberate but it also at certain times felt like she's like if i speak really quietly can people not hear if i'm doing the accent or not does it put less emphasis on it it's a gentler accent i mean she's doing a gentler accent and it i mean that's again this sort of weird notion of well how much accent can we have in this movie where nobody's actually speaking with an accent i mean these people aren't you know um i again it works for me and i love her i love her speech uh when she you know when she says you know who speaks for piero um i think that's a beautiful moment i think she she nails that moment i don't i don't remember where either of you stand on this movie. It's not a movie I'm particularly

fond of. She's like bizarrely good in Dumb Money. I think she's great. I'm pro Dumb Money. I liked that movie. Did you see Dumb Money? I did see Dumb Money. I enjoyed it. I took my son to see it. He really loved it.

You know, we had a good time at the movies. I didn't think too hard about it. I truly was. I'm not a huge fan of Craig Gillespie. Neither am I. Neither are you. Three out of three. Although he's right.

He's made a couple movies. No, I'm saying three out of three. We all agree. Oh, yeah. Right. For me, he's kind of like a three out of eight. If you're looking at his filmography. Yeah.

One of those might be generous. It was exactly. It was at TIFF. But it was one of those TI be generous. It was, exactly, it was at TIFF, but it was one of those TIFF movies where it's like, it's out in a week or whatever. You know, like,

sure, it's at TIFF, but we're about to release it. I was not even gonna go. I was gonna go see Dix the Musical, and I got, like, shut out of that,

I think. That was what happened. I got shut out of it. Still never seen Dix the Musical. Well, some ally you are. Yeah, seriously.

And, so I went to the roy thompson hall which is basically like god's punishment for movies is seeing fucking movies in this goddamn opera house in toronto that's like terrible for seeing movies yeah in my opinion oh really i've never been so it's the one venue they use that's obviously not designed for movies at all and like in my opinion kind of just a stinky place to see and it's an opera hall it's an opera house you know it's a beautiful uh theater uh whatever you know a concert hall but uh you know you're sitting in the wings like two levels up you know sound is like echoing off exactly it's crazy it's especially crazy place to see like basically an ensemble dramedy like you know that's set in basements

like you know dumb money is not exactly like an epic like i saw the woman king there we were all kind of like going for it because like that movie's big you know and nonetheless i was like i fucking like this like this is a period piece about a time that freaked me out i mean and nonetheless i feel like it's nailing the mo the mood like it is upsetting how well that movie gets the specifics dumb mund specifics of 2020 to 2021 yeah and you're just like it gets the differences in each month of like how many things are open or what are the attitudes of people it gets right the specifics of who's still wearing a mask at what point and who isn't right yes all that shit yeah just felt right and also just felt like it got the mood of us at that moment of like these there's fucking rich people doing stuff right now they have whole

tennis courts right you know what i mean like like the true like everywhere you know feeling of like these guys gotta go because the whole thing with dumb money was like what do the hedge funds do i don't even know but i know it's not good like and it's time for us to get that money i think she's really good in that movie she's very good and it's good and and kind of a tough role boring supportive wife role should be nothing and you're like fuck this shailene woodley stuck in this role like that's rude to her and you watch her make so much more out of it that it doesn't become a thankless role but it is funny she is someone where i just still think like oh isn't she like 22 and it's like no she's in her 30s it feels like she's too young

to be playing these like kind of exhausted mother roles but then you're like no she's actually older than the real woman would have been in ferrari's life at that point in time by a good chunk of years right yeah i mean she's a she's an exhausted mother herself probably at that point in time by a good chunk of years. Yeah, I mean, she's an exhausted mother herself, probably, at this point. Yeah, I just rewatched The Descendants. She's good in that. She's fantastic in that. I mean, that's when everyone thought she was the person.

Yeah. It was that, and then following that with Spectacular Now, which was this very real and lovely young performance. And then the first Divergent was big, and it was like, like, very real and, like, lovely, you know, young performance. And then the first Divergent was big, and it was like, I guess she has the Kristen Stewart career.

I guess she's gonna just, like... Oh, you're forgetting another gigantic movie she was in. What's that? Fault in Our Stars. I'm not being sarcastic. Oh, I was...

I was complaining Spectacular Now and Fault in Our Stars. Yeah, she's in both of them. Yes, right. Yes. Like, Spectacular Now being a better version of the weepy teen film she's incredibly good and then fault in our service

was huge it was played like a fucking hunger games movie or whatever it was a 300 million dollars like it's funny what and then she was in big little lies right it's like that shows a big deal everyone forgets she's she put it in the main three characters everyone else like zoe kravitz like popped off of that more than she did in the like thankless i feel like she's the one who never got nominations like she's weird in that she doesn't have a bad career but there was certainly that moment 10 years ago where it's just like oscar nominations imminent yeah and also she seems to be a crossover like the kids actually box office right they'll they'll come out for her right she's gonna do both and then she's sort of just like floated a little bit like 2016 she's in snowden

in the dumb money role of like right oh snowden how are you doing which is a terrible movie right and that really that's a worse version of that role when you're like, it's actually way too early for you to be taking this. It's weird. I mean, I know she like eats dirt and like is dating Aaron Rodgers. I know she's like an odd person.

She puts clay on her butt. I'm not saying it dismissively. Every actor should be crazy. Yes. Ben suddenly was like, she eats dirt? I think she eats dirt, right? I think she like talks about suntanning her butthole that's fine suntan away all of this is good we all like all of it she eats dirt and clay yeah she eats dirt and clay ben for one end i don't know she thinks that's good for the pure i don't know she has some

what's the suntanning Your butt all part of She I This is a real thing Am I not Am I No I believe you're right I'm all but certain She's like Well we never sun that area

Of our bodies You have to do it Lots of people Now write Or you're like Yeah you know You know get naked Get outside

And really you know Let the sun in on the places It does not shine As the saying goes But she's not being That general about it Is this a rich person thing where you have to do it

in your compound? She's got this sort of... You need a lot of space. You know how some celebrities... Unless there are butthole tanning beaches where everybody's just got their Peter Rens up.

Robin Williams had that line he always said of cocaine is God's way of telling you you have too much money. Is butthole tanning the way now for a new generation? There's just this, there's a few celebrities who get diverted onto that kind of au naturel path, right? Where they start going on Leno being like, yeah, I just eat alfalfa sprouts all day and that's why I'm like this.

And most people are like, oh, what a lunatic. And some people are like, I'm going alfalfa sprouts all day and that's why I'm like this. And most people are like, oh, what a lunatic. And some people are like, I'm going to do it too. I don't know. She's okay in this movie. I think she's good in this movie.

The plot of the movie is sort of like, I mean, it's what we said. It's that like, Ferrari has lost his son, Dino. Right? His son died in his 20s, right? Of sort of, like... He was, like, 20. Gastroenteritis or something.

It was some kind of, like, progressive, you know, unsolvable digestive thing, right? Like, just a disease. And he's... So, he's grieving. His business is struggling because you don't make any money racing cars and smashing them up and killing people. He's not interested in selling cars. Right. So he's sort of doing that as a means to an end.

Who's the rival they talk about where he says, our philosophies are different. He races cars in order to sell cars and I sell cars in order to race cars he says something that's actually a jaguar i believe that oh that's right right but the whole thing with jaguar was rivals with maserati yeah right jaguar another sports car company that starts selling their cars and no one knew how to operate them yeah because they were not made for consumers and so then jaguar acquired this like reputation is like they make lemons right like people would be like i spent so much money on this fucking car and i can't even start it like and like it's because these cars were just not you know no one had figured this out yet and that's

what he's starting to figure out too yeah exactly but this sort of selling like some shake you know a fucking ferrari that just raced and the guy's like where's the i don't get it like where's this philosophy doesn't turn a lot of these other companies use racing as a way to billboard their product and to, like, build their brand name. And he's like, no, racing is like a means to an end in and of itself for me. I'm annoyed that I even have to sell a single car. Because those are companies. Right. And this is, I mean, it's a company, but really, I mean.

It's like a church. Within the schema of the film, it's a guy. Yeah. And it's a church. I mean, it's a way of life., I mean, within the schema of the film, it's a guy. Yeah, and it's a church. I mean, it's a way of life. It's not a company. Right. It's a dogma. Did you visit, like, Ferrari in Modena?

No. They have a factory there. They do, actually. The factory is in the town right next to Modena. All right. No, which is funny because it apparently has always been there, but it was only very briefly in Modena, but he lived in Modena. So that's the shorthand for everything. But they're actually in, I did not visit the factory.

It's in, you're right, Maranello. Maranello, yes. Which is right in the province of Modena. So he's got the business, you know, the creditors are breathing down his neck. He is getting ready for a race. He watches a guy race around a track. The guy fucking absolutely eats it and gets smashed against the wall. The car is destroyed.

His girlfriend is crying about it. And the car is like, eh, annoying. Right? So he's got that problem. His wife is basically a living thundercloud who, in the opening minutes of the movie, aims a gun at him shoots it yes and then it's like there's more where that comes from

yeah is it is it his mother in the house yeah that's his mother his mother is basically this like right 1,000 year old witch who just like walks around in the house you know and actually says

the words which which are apparently things she a thing that she actually did actually says the words which which are apparently things she a thing that she actually did say used to say which is the wrong kid died yeah she's basically robert patricking and walk arting it up like the real life robert patrick to my point like the performance she's giving feels like they built a time machine took ferrari's actual elderly mother i know the 40s and put her in a scene next to Adam Driver where you're like, I'm watching the real thing. She does feel.

This is just a real old Italian lady. And she's fantastic. Who doesn't feel like she's acting and is incredible. So that's going on. His wife, and then of course he has a second child with another lady that his wife does not know about, but every single other citizen of italy does know about it seems right the movie is him waking up in bed with shailene woodley right kissing his son goodbye for the day quietly pushing a speed car yes out of the driveway

and then trying to as as subtly uh as possible get across town to his wife to be there in the morning. When she wakes up and she knows he's been out all night, which is why she shoots the gun. We should also say there's the wonderful black and white footage of young Ferrari driving, right?

You know, in that crazy, like, old-fashioned, you know, overgrind, which is cool. And Cruise basically says, like, I know you sleep around, but the agreement has always been you're here before, like,

the coffee is made. The morning coffee arrives. And as she's saying that, the coffee is arriving behind you're here before, like, the coffee is made. The morning coffee arrives. And as she's saying that, the coffee is arriving behind her. And he's like, oh, no problem. Okay, I'm going to go watch someone else explode. So there's, like, an admission that this marriage is, like, beyond broken, loveless, tense, tortured, like, clouded by the death, all of this sort of stuff. But she's still obsessed with the appearances of, like, I cannot be seen as the woman who is. Being stepped down on.

Also, she's entangled in the business. He relies on her to run the business. She's the one going to the bank, which seems to be in, like, one of 80 churches. The bank is the big marble building. And she owns half the business, right? Right, yes. He can't do anything without her.

And then, right uh and then right and then he needs to win this race because the stakes are if you win the race your business is saved yeah you can sell more cars you can take out a i don't know whatever and i guess there's sort of the notion of like he might sell to fiat right you might say a partnership with a bigger company which he did which he eventually did right but he's obviously is offensive to him because it's like they'll they'll ruin the purity of what i'm doing here and they'll i guess he's when he sold he did get what he wanted which was basically like i do the race cars you can do whatever well that's the thing i mean that's the the sort of subplot in the movie about him trying to make sure that if he does sell he can do it while still retaining control of the company and he and he does a nice job of

playing playing ford off fiat off fiat right um by placing that that rumor in the newspaper but by design this guy is uh pretty inscrutable right where like i mean man just talked a lot in the q a about just liking how much this guy was like nothing but contradictions and contradictions that he himself would not even attempt to process. The other thing, though, that that that really jumps out at me about this movie is that in some ways I think it's maybe man's most personal film. OK. I mean, because this is hit me with that. man's most personal film okay i mean because this is hit me with that yeah well this is the this is this is the only protagonist he has who could be called a creator of sorts an artist yes he's absolutely an artist i mean he talks i mean he talks about design and there's that that great

scene where he's talking to young piero and and says when when you know when things work better they're more pleasing to the eye. It is interesting that now that you're pointing this out, most of the man characters who feel like the closest analogs for himself are criminals. Are criminals, obviously. Right.

But even like Public Enemies and Heat and all these movies where you're just like, Black Hat to a degree, where it's like guys who have this obsessive pursuit of becoming great and having a complete understanding of a thing. But also total independence.

Like all those characters, like Thief, Heat, Black Hat, these are guys who are like, you know, you don't work for them. You work for yourself. But that becomes their medium. Like their crime is their medium that they work in. You're right that this is the first character who is like a creative. Right. And it's like the whole film in some ways feels like almost like an apologia for man's career because he is also

a person who who really drives people pretty hard from everything i've heard um you know i mean you certainly hear that he's yeah i mean irascible i don't know how to put it here the ruffalo quote recently his downey jr actor is on, but he said something to the effect of like... I'll find it. Because it was comparing him to Fincher. David Fincher makes Michael Mann look like the guy running the McDonald's drive-thru on the weekend. That was exactly it yes yeah but like the thing about the thing about man though is you know i mean i've heard that he's he's very intense to deal with he's very i mean he'll run

you ragged like i've never heard of him being abusive or anything like that but but just like one of these people who will like like work you to the bone exactly he works that much right and he's there he's there working with you. And, you know, I mean, I've talked to editors who've cut films for him while other editors were cutting the same film. Yeah. And it's like, I did all this work and none of it wound up in the movie, like that kind of stuff. I mean, I hope it's okay for me to repeat this, but I remember you telling me at some public talk Q&A you did with him that when you were backstage waiting to go on he was like furiously shadowboxing

so yes this was when we did the BAM thing and was that for the black hat? this was the year of black hat this was when they did the big BAM retro and I did this like hour and a half conversation with man it was like the biggest thing I'd

done like biggest Q&A I'd ever done. And I was also going through a period at the time when I was having like genuine panic attacks when I had to talk in front of anything more than two people. I fucking get it, bro. And I had sort of, I mean, I was looking forward to this thing, but also dreading it. And I was so nervous.

And the only way to kind of get over it for me was to just sit and just like breathe quietly in the dark and just like empty my brain. And so, but like they sort of made us wait right out like behind the stage while like the head of BAM and all these people like were doing their introductions. And we're sitting in the dark and there's this like row of chairs. I'm sitting in a chair just trying to like collect myself so I don't like literally like shit my pants on stage in front of like 500 people at BAM. That might be interesting. I mean, it would be notable. Good opening gambit. Right.

Notable. Shit my pants. What do you think? What do you think about that? Notable. Shit my pants. What do you think? What do you think about that?

Meanwhile, and I asked him right beforehand, I said, do you ever get nervous before these things? And he says, no, I never get nervous, but I have a lot of nervous energy that I have to sort of work out. Right. And so I'm sitting there in the dark. Meanwhile, he's pacing, shadow boxing, like punching the air and like guzzling bottles of water like just like just downing bottles of water and and i'm just sitting there going i am not relaxed at all right this is not helping you like calm down yeah but as you said he does seem to have weirdly chilled out the last couple of years he definitely didn't have that vibe he's had like a very different pitch now he's also he's hard of hearing and like that's that vibe. He's had like a very different pitch now. He's also,

he's hard of hearing and like that's sort of like, I mean, in like a sort of regular old guy way, I think. Well, I think, I think,

I think he lost some of his hearing doing the, the shootout in heat. That's what I had heard. That movie is fucking loud as hell. But like, his vibe was definitely not shadow boxy when I met him.

It was like nice, you know, older guy. But there's, yes. But this was like a I met him. It was like nice, you know, older guy. But this was like a public appearance thing. So I think that was more he was like psyching himself. He's always had that sort of restless energy. And as you're saying, this movie feels a little more contemplative and a little more retrospective about like his life and his legacy and his persona and all of that filtered through this guy. Yeah, I think there's something.

And I asked him about this and he didn't really answer it. So didn't question director's love. that filtered through this guy. Yeah, I think there's something, and I asked him about this, and he didn't really answer it, so didn't mind if it might have. A question directors love, like, are you like this guy that you just made the movie about? Yeah, are you like this guy who killed nine people? Right, right, who watches people explode and is like, annoying for me personally,

and I don't care about them. Now they'll never finance my next picture. No, the fucking wife is blah, blah, blah, blah. He doesn't quite say that, but he kind of does. I mean, after the first guy dies, he's like his girlfriend and his mom. So annoying, you know. But I do think that, I mean, these people aren't necessarily always aware of how much they relate to these characters. So, I mean, I asked him about it and he answered something completely different.

But I do feel like… In 1742 in this town, he just started listing… The blacks are in Dolby. It's a 2000 range. Yeah. At that point, no one did cobblestone. It was always limestone. Thief is about Marxist ideology.

It's my favorite thing he keeps trying to… Which is true. But yeah, anyway. Marxist ideology. That's my favorite thing he keeps trying to, you know, which is true. Yeah. But yeah, anyway, so, so no, so I do think that there is like this weird connection

he has to Enzo Ferrari, which also explains why he's been trying to make this movie for 30 years. And trying to make a movie that is maybe less dynamic than the movies

he's made recently. Like Black Hat, Public Enemies, Miami Vice Collateral, those are action movies. Public Enemies, Miami Vice Collateral, those are action movies. Public Enemies is maybe the most sort of period biopic-y of those four movies, but it's still a movie with the shootouts

and car chases and Tommy guns. And it's one of those things where it's like, weirdly going back to Jesse James again, but like, Andrew Dominick talked about developing a bunch of movies that he couldn't get off the ground after Chopper, which didn't do well here but was a big calling card movie and his like agent was like come on we got to get something we can sell and he's like well i read this book on jesse james i like and he was like jesse james i can i heard of that guy right and

he was like well my take's gonna be like a moody and a sort of meditative thing he's like doesn't matter jesse james is like batman especially if you get brad pitt that was the argument it's like if i can get an ala star and say it's a jesse james movie we can trick people into giving us money because on paper people can see in their head oh they're like guns and robberies and in a similar way you're like michael mann saying ferrari and here's a big leading man people are like oh it's fucking michael mann the cars are gonna win the grand prix and it's like nah bro. The cars are going to be like... He's going to win the Grand Prix. And it's like, nah, bro, he didn't drive. He was just the grumpy owner. But it's almost surprising it took him this long to get the movie made,

even if the movie he wanted to make was so different than what people would imagine. It's the kind of pitch you think would trick people. How many times did you see Blonde? Four. Son of a bitch. I didn't love Blonde. I loved it love I was gonna say that self-harm

God that was a movie where I was writhing in my seat one day I will give blonde another chance because I do like all of his other movies and assassination Jesse James by the way if you

ever read the novel it's just like the movie yes which is great like so people knew what they were getting into or they should have known but that's because they thought counter to Ferrari it was like no one even thought about just like the movie. Yes. Which is crazy. So people knew what they were getting into or they should have known but they didn't because they thought

Jesse James, Brad Pitt. Counter to Ferrari, it was like, no one even thought about it. They were just like, Jesse James, Brad Pitt, done. Yeah. He could point to the book

as many times as he wanted. I'm like, Brad Pitt's main character and he was like, yeah, sure. He's the main character. Yeah. Ferrari, wait,

I had a point about Ferrari. I've lost it. I don't know. Well, I was going to say, i mean but the the racing sequences are incredibly dynamic they are i mean there's a contrast here between sort of the the very staid classical intimate scenes in the film and then you know just the absolutely unhinged racing sequences obviously it's the big racing scene is the millimilla which is at the end of the movie but but is pretty awesome until, of course, you know, the catastrophe. Yeah, I wouldn't call that part awesome. No, I would call that part bad.

But before that, the test sequence, which is cool, the test drive, which also ends in catastrophe. Is there a third racing sequence I'm forgetting? There's a brief racing sequence, a snippet of a race that we see in between the two. Where he's beating the time or whatever? No, when we see the, when the cars go through the flames, that's a different race. It's brief. Right. And they actually perform poorly at that race.

Right. So, which then sets up the Mille Miglia as being, like, even more important. Obviously, he brings in Patrick Dempsey, who is a real race car driver, basically, right? Yeah. Like, isn't he one of those

actors who just does this? And has been trying to make a race car movie for a long time. To play Piero Taruffi? Taruffi, yeah. Who is the winner of the Mille Miglia.

No, I talked to people who were like, that is an inexplicable casting why is he in this movie and it's like he probably demanded to be in this movie he's kind of awesome

in this movie he's great I really like his look Jack O'Connell I mean all the actually like big actors I want to talk about

Jack O'Connell for five seconds and I'll let people extrapolate what they want from this statement but I have heard that Patrick Dempsey while filming

other things will get annoyed about the amount of takes he has to do because it's stealing time away from his racing. Right. He likes to race. Yes. It went from hobby to obsession for him, much like it's gone with Michael Fassbender. But it's like, this is his main thing. And then if the pitch is like, you get to play a racer, heer he's like well this is the kind of acting i like jack o'connell who i was just like so convinced 10 years ago was kind of a shailene guy yeah and i remember seeing startup and going holy shit this fucking guy undeniable and next

year he's got fucking unbroken and it was like if this is what he did in startup and unbroken a year out looked like the cannot beat oscar front yeah i remember that you're like can you believe this story and it's joe lee and she's kind of developing her muscles director and the cohen's wrote it the movie's a hit it does nothing for his career because nobody actually liked that no but it makes a hundred million domestic it did and then he's just fallen into this like money monster well he's really bad in money monster in my opinion that's like that's a really bad performance that was another moment of a major movie star being like i'm i'm calling the shot angelina jolie is pointing to jack o'connell george clooney is pointing to jack o'connell all these people are like we know it when we see it

he's the next guy he's's playing Amy Winehouse's awful husband in the Amy Winehouse movie. That is good casting. Which is good casting. Blake Fielder-Civil, a man whose birth certificate I pulled back when I was an intern

in People Magazine. People Magazine was very much like, we need to know everyone's age. Because People Magazine, you know, Shailene Woodley, comma, 32. They love like that.

That is the style. You have to put their age age and so my job as an intern what was to go to the british birth marriage and death office which i think still exists which you enter this giant room they're still being born and dying marriages deaths like there are three wings and you can you can go look up like charles dickens's birth certificate because they've been keeping these records and i I would pull everyone, every minor British celebrity's birth certificate for them. Mm-hmm. Including Blake Fielder-Civil.

I just don't think that's a role that's going to help him. I was going to say. Yeah. I think that is good casting and it's not going to help him. And he's probably, you know, suffering a little bit from the fact that, you know, he's becoming a movie star right as the age of the movie star is declining. There's just like six or seven English actors who are handsome and talented that are the same age. You know, who's the guy in Midsommar? Oh, Jack Rayner.

Jack Rayner. Who's the guy in Dunkirk? Jack Loudon. All these fucking Jacks. Jacks. See, for crying out loud. Yeah, I just. We've got the Chrises. They've got the Jacks. Exactlys. See, for crying out loud. Yeah, I just... We've got the Chrises.

They've got the Jacks. Yeah, exactly. Like, they're all pretty good. And I agree with you, Griffin. When I saw Starred Up, the David McKenzie movie, I, too, was like, right, this is the birth of a major.

This guy's at a different level than those other guys. I don't know what to tell you, man. He's good in this, but, like, he's also just part of the ensemble. What I like about Dempsey is just his look feels perfect.

And his confidence is ingrained. Like he just, this guy actually knows what he's doing. And his white hair for some reason looks way more realistic

than Driver's white hair. I think it's because Driver's hair is so iconic. Yes. It's so crucial to Driver. But Dreamy's hair is also iconic. But basically, there were articles

written about his hair right you're right but it's been a while i guess and with with mcdreamy it's basically the exact same hairstyle just in shock white versus driver you're just like what is this like i was even googling what was cool what was the last it's like the victor victoria way right just yeah yeah shave and then boom what was the last time he... It's like the Victor Victoria way. Right. Where it just... Yeah, yeah. Shave and then boom. What was the last time he fucked with his hair? What was the last time he didn't have long hair?

Like, when he's in 65, he has the shoulder-length black hair. Why? Because that's what Adam Driver looks like. Right. Why should an astronaut

have hair like that? It doesn't matter. That's what Adam Driver looks like. Yes. White noise, he's got, you know, kind of the sort of...

Again, he's made up. Well, he's doing yes that's more ferrari look right prosthetic symbolic that's another role that he's 10 to 15 years too young for yeah he's good in that movie that would be so weird i mean my take on that movie is it should have been giamatti but well i mean all parts most Giamatti should have played Ferrari. He should play the cars. I will say. I will say. I'm a car. I'm going fast.

What do you mean I'm breaking down? I wish I could do him. I know. Ferrari and private parts would be actually a really interesting double feature. Go on. Okay. Driven, powerful, influential artists. You could almost imagine Pig Vomit

walking into a Ferrari and schooling them on the correct pronunciations of things. Stop racing! W-A-N-B-C. But I mean, going back to Driver for a moment, I should clarify, I think this is the best performance he's ever done. I mean, Bilge is all in on this.

This is like my performance of the year. And I can't imagine anyone else playing this part ever again. Here's my struggle. I'm like, I clearly bumped on this performance. I cannot name who I think it should have been. And usually I feel like

when I bump on a casting in a movie. Gene Robbins? That's Paul Schaim. Christian Bale? I mean, I'd be interested to see the Bale version. I prefer Driver to Bale in every way.

I do like Bale. Christian Bale is maybe my favorite actor working still, but for me, I mean, Driver is this character now. Wow.

I love him in this. I just, look, I said it to you, I like movies about Italians yelling at each other as well. Like, I just like that it's a Ferrari movie that feels like fucking Journey to Italy or whatever. Like, half the time.

Like, I just can't believe he made a $95 million movie where the most tense and involving sequences are him and Penelope Cruz basically in a loveless marriage. Because they do sort of have sex. Like, there is, like, there's passion between them. There's intense emotion between them. But it's not a functional. But, like, there's passion between them. There's intense emotion between them, but it's not a functional... But, like, facing each other down. Like, those are the sequences where I'm gripping my seat the most, maybe.

That or me going, like, why is this guy filming the screen? And then Manola just diving towards him. I heard that's what Michael Mann's next movie is going to be about. The guy who filmed Ferrari? Yeah, that's the title.

It's called The Guy Who Filmed Ferrari. And Adam Driver's playing Nola Dargis. Isn't he wrong for that part? He wants to do it. He has a take. I like the performance a lot. But I tend to...

I think I like Adam Driver more than you do, though. I don't know if that's true. Wow. Because I was also watching this and being like, have I actually ever bumped on him before? What is your favorite Adam Driver performance? That's a good question. Well, that's your favorite. Which one?

Patterson. Oh, Patterson. One of my favorite movies. Great, great, great movie. I mean, it's like a lame answer, but I do think he is specifically absurdly good in Last Jedi. He is? Oh, yeah. I mean, he's great as Kylo Ren.

He's a good Kylo Ren. He is. I think jiamati could have nailed it though i mean i think annette is weirdly way up there for me of just like have few movies played more with how weird he is as a movie star like the stretchiness of him you know the my my problem with annette when i saw it was the stand-up comedy and that might still be my problem with it although i respect how you know stand-up comedy, and that might still be my problem with it, although I respect how, you know, balls out he is. Yeah, what he does is captivating. Did you watch it once?

I just saw it one time. Okay. See, that's an example. No, because I was mixed on it when I first saw it. And as I kept going back to it, it became my favorite movie of that year. I liked it a lot when I first saw it with Reservations and it sat with me nicely and I rewatched sequences from it all the time

but I should sit down and, you know, meet Baby Annette again. But that's an example for me where I'm like, him not being funny doesn't matter to me. Like, and I had this conversation

with a lot of people like, what the hell is this? Well, it falls apart when he's on stage doing stand-up and I'm like, he's getting at an idea in a way I care about

more than him ever seeming like a comedian. And I think it has, like, the proper getting at an idea in a way I care about more than him ever seeming like a comedian. And I think it has like the proper dramatic effect. And also him just pacing around that stage for like 10 minutes at a time. I'm like, this is the most captivating shit I've ever seen. Yeah, I would watch this. I would pay to go see this. He would become a celebrity doing that.

He would. If there was a comedian out there who was doing, I guess, anti-comedy of that type, he would be. There are a lot of comedians also today who are unconsciously doing what he's doing. All right, now I'm trying to think of other— Who think they're telling jokes and are just ranting about things. I'm trying to think of 50-something actors who could play Ferrari now. This is the thing. I don't have—

So it's like Clooney, you know, guys like this, like Colin Firth, fucking— But then I'm like, these guys are this, like Colin Firth, fucking. But then I'm like, these guys are all. Daniel Craig. Too suave, right? Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like there's something about like if he is more conventionally, and Christian Bale's obviously a very handsome guy, but there's that innate coldness to him.

Ralph Fiennes? Fiennes is interesting. I got the build for it. Fiennes is interesting. Fiennes is too short though. A lot of these guys are kind of more on the slight side, right? And he's supposed to be imposing. Fiennes is wiry and short.

Yeah. He's got the hair. He's got that Ferrari hair, basically. No, he doesn't. No, he doesn't. Isn't he bald? That's what I mean. He's got the high forehead.

Oh, I see. Okay. But yeah. It's not like there's someone screaming to me. No. Yeah. No, and I've been stewing on it for a week or two now. Wow, Minestrone over here.

Well, that's what they call me. When I walk down the streets, they go, Hey, Minestrone! You got any better Ferrari castings yet? I go, no, Tony's still working on it. Are there other scenes in Ferrari we need to discuss? We haven't been going through the plot sequentially, but that's fine. But, like, what haven't

we touched on in Ferrari so far? If there are any things. The church scene. The church intercut with the workers' mass intercut with the Oh, the stopwatches. Yeah, the stopwatches. You know, the priest's sermon which is basically

about how you know if jesus lived today he would be a metal worker at the ferrari factory the the sort of all the stuff where you're driving home that this is like a company town and like this is the only game in town although Although no one mentions vinegar. They are making vinegar. I know. They never mention vinegar. There should be one scene where he meets with the vinegar guy and is like,

how you doing? And he's like, oh, vinegar up the ass. It's going crazy. Fiat wants to buy me the fiat of vinegars. You're sticking vinegar up your ass? Does Shailene Woodley recommend that?

But the other, right, the other, you know, the scenes with his son where he's like helping his son like look at the blueprints and talk about engines. Talk about a scene that feels autobiographical of just like, here is Michael Mann's philosophy on life. I think the things that work the best end up being the most beautiful. Yeah.

Which is basically the philosophy behind doing the amount of research he does, right? Yeah. behind doing the amount of research he does right yeah like his studiousness and the construction of his projects is whether or not any of that is surface level textual noticeable i think all of that comes across in the function of the machine and then it provides it with a level of beauty which is fascinating for a guy who at times was slammed for being like substance, obsessive substance over entertainment. And at other times was slammed for being style over substance. Too slick. Yeah.

And it's not also, I mean, he's not a director like a, like a Nolan or even a Kubrick who has kind of an engineer's mind with, when it comes to things like story and character. Very much so. I mean, he's still very much a vibe,

I hate this expression, but a very vibes based director when it comes to things like story and character. Very much so. I mean, he's still very much a vibe... I hate this expression, but a very vibes-based director when it comes to things like narrative. At different times, people have been like, this is all just like mood. It's all look. It's all style, right? And at other times, people have been like,

he's just obsessed with all this fucking research he did. And he doesn't know how to put it in like a dramatic package for us to relate to. He's a bit like... I think Mann himself would probably reject this comparison, but he's a bit like Terrence Malick in that sense. You know, because Terrence Malick is also one of those filmmakers who people are like, well, I couldn't tell what anybody was saying. I couldn't hear the dialogue. Malick's the most extreme version of this. I couldn't tell who was who, that kind of thing.

Yeah. You know. This is interesting source material why did he have to like fuck it up by focusing on all these birds right and he clearly knows everything about this subject but it doesn't necessarily always come across well and also his style of just like i'm gonna shoot so much and it'll it'll all get figured out later why right why dig into all of that if you're not going to make the effort of communicating any of that to us?

Why put that work under the hood, right? Because I think people like this believe that that work, like there's an intuitive connection that can make the two years. Yeah, right?

Right, that's the confession of that scene with the son. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. There's also, I mean, the opera scene I find fascinating too. He's got a daughter, right?

Michael Mann. He's got three. Three daughters? Three or four. Michael Mann, like raising three to four daughters is a sitcom premise, right? I mean, like, you know, meeting the boyfriends or, you know, like. I heard a story. It was so funny.

Actually, this was when I was first, at my first screening of Ferrari. For some reason, it was packed. Not with other critics or anything like that. I think it was all people from like one magazine. Michael Mann magazine. It was like a Vogue or GQ or one of these magazines. It was like their entire. Or they're considering a cover story.

Yeah, like their entire creative staff or something like that. But I got there early and I didn't know who this was. It might have been like the projectionist or maybe somebody was talking about how when he was in high school, he dated one of Mann's daughters. Wow. And there was actually a very sweet story. He said— Talk about a Meet the Parents remake. Well, that's the thing.

He said he went out to dinner with them once. Yes. And then on the way back, Michael Mannn said here i'll drive you home and he uh and michael mann had his ferrari with him and he drove this guy home in his ferrari just like gunning it yeah and the guy understood this was michael mann saying don't fuck with me or my family. Jesus Christ. I have the power to kill you. Meanwhile, he's just staring him down the rearview mirror. Yeah.

What do you know about high tensile metals? Which, by the way, Ferrari, a movie about metals. True. Oh, yeah, man. That was your first lead, right? That was the lead of your first review? Yeah, that was my tweet. That was your tweet.

I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay. That's all right. And now I'm off Twitter. I don't get to see, you know, fun little pithy tweets. What a That was my tweet. That was your tweet. I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay. That's all right. And now I'm off Twitter. I don't get to see fun little pithy tweets. What a mistake you've made.

What a fool I am. We don't call it Twitter anymore. Oh, of course. I'm sorry. I've left X. You've X'd out of your life. X'd X.

I fucking X'd it out. Yeah. What was the other scene I was going to bring up? Oh, the scene, I mean, Driver talked about this a lot at the Q&A. The funniest thing was, I saw this with my dad. My dad turned to me when Michael Mann was talking and went, where's he from?

And I was like, what are you, fucking Chicago? No one sounds more like the place they're from than Michael Mann sounds like he's from Chicago. This is like hearing Mick Jagger and being like, where's he from? Where's he from? What is he, Spanish? The way he says blacks when I was talking to him

about the prints, the Dolby print. He was describing the difference between a Dolby print and a laser print to me, I think. That's what it was. I have the transcript

and I'm going to listen to it and probably like loop it and make it some kind of ambient thing I listen to when I go to sleep or whatever. Just Michael Mann talking about Dolby Prints to me. But yeah, the blacks are much higher. Run it through your hatch.

Right, yeah. Go to sleep every night. Slow it down maybe. It's Hosley style. But yeah, he's a Chicago dude, which makes it all the funnier that he made a movie about a guy who basically never left a province of northern Italy. That's the whole thing with Enzo Ferrari. He makes this global brand, but he's not fucking going anywhere.

And rarely goes to the races. His big trip is to go see his mistress across town or wherever she is. That's his... The emotional... So the ending of this movie is the Mila Mila happens. It's crazy. The young driver, DiPortago, who's played by Gabriele Leone, who's not an actor I know.

He was on a big Netflix show, I want to say. Dom? Yes, I think that's what it is. It was an Amazon show. Michael Mancetti cast him from that. Very handsome. Yes. Very much like a young know young italian race car driver right i think he's

spanish but like he's got the vibe of like and that's one of the liberties i think this movie kind of takes is deportago at brazilian i'm sorry oh he's brazilian um deportago at the time was like a huge figure like he was a huge celebrity. Like a global celebrity. The kiss. There's this famous photo of him kissing his girlfriend. The kiss of death. It's called the kiss of death. Like it was the last time anyone took a picture of him before he, you know, crashed his car into a bunch of people. By mistake. He didn't mean to.

No, he didn't mean to. He's not a stuntman, Mike. Right. Yeah. God, right. But, right, the Mille Millea which is a thousand mile drive people would do too fast through the streets of italy not the right place to do it don't do it do it far away from the narrow streets of italy you would go 500 miles in one direction and kind of turn around

right you would usually have a navigator with you with a map telling you what to do except if you're dempsey who's done it so many times, he knows how to do it. Dempsey's character basically averages like 100 miles an hour the entire time, right? Except for the time when he gives a little lift to Jean Berat, the Maserati driver whose car breaks down. Which is funny, right? That guy's out and he's like, show a ride with me. It's insane that, I mean, the answer, you're like, how do people not die doing this? The answer is like, they do.

They died all the time. And it's just after World War II and everyone was just like closer to this stuff in a way. It's just like, oh, sure. Like, we live in this chaotic time. A sport where everyone accepts you got to break a few eggs to make an omelet, except the eggs are going like, please let me break myself. I want the risk. I want the juice of potentially ending up in an omelet. Put me in that frying pan, baby.

Right. I want the juice of potentially ending up in an awful. Put me in that frying pan, baby. Right. And they win. Portago dies, obviously, but the other Ferrari driver. Cut in half. Yes, it's horrifying. Did he—to either of you in interviews talk about the family that they cut to in the middle of the race and the older brother?

I've read interviews about that, yeah. Yeah. When they were, like, scouting. Oh, yes, yes. And going to the real place. A family came out and was like, you're doing that? And this old guy— We are the descendants of those people. Right. that yeah yeah when they were like scouting oh yes yes and going to the real place and a family came out and was like you're doing that and this old guy descendants of those people no right the old guy he actually saw it is the younger brother right who watches it happen and he was like we

were at home we were having dinner we heard the sound my brother ran out he was taller than me and faster me he got there before i did and michael man was like well that's going directly in the movie but he he heard that firsthand from the grown-up version of that small child. It's obviously the car crash is very distressing. Beyond upsetting.

It's depicted, I was really worried, I think, that it would be like gory or something. That's the scary thing is it's not gory. happens so quickly so quickly and then

the sort of carnage afterward is sort of horrifying to behold yeah but it's honestly emotionally you know obviously just way more devastating than actually like what you're seeing well because also what you're seeing is bad because it's also like it's so bad that you can barely process it and it is gory but gory in a way that is so unlike the language we're used to of like zombie movie gore, you know, where you're like, oh, this is just actual human destruction. It is not done for visual shock factor. There's a weird mundanity to like, oh, suddenly a bunch of people are just missing their heads. It reminds you of how... It takes a second to process. It reminds you of how just like fragile we are. Yes. I mean, when you see humans just mowed down just so indiscriminately. Yes. I mean, and that's the thing about this Le Mans footage from 1955. When you see it, you're just like, oh my God, those are people. Right. That it's just like slicing through. And it just doesn't process where you're like, that's like a bunch of mannequins getting knocked over. And then your brain starts noticing like, oh, wait, there's blood.

And he slowly tracks across the carnage. It is truly masterful stuff. Now, I want to say, I was not asking for any conventional sense of resolution from this movie. I am into Michael Mann's characters living in emotionally unresolved gray spaces, right? to Michael Mann's characters living in emotionally unresolved gray spaces, right? Either dying, you know, by the side of highways or on public transit unresolved, or just continuing on with their life unresolved or whatever that is. But at this moment in the movie, when this happens, and I did not know the true story and it is so shocking on screen, I was like, holy shit, the stakes of this thing just went

through the roof. How does he fucking handle shit the stakes of this thing just went through the roof right how does he fucking handle the fallout of this and the movie ends very quickly after that yeah and it's not like i was looking for closure but when that doesn't give it to you when that scene happens i thought did i not realize this movie is three hours long right because certainly there has to be another hour of story of this of of watching this man further emotionally crumble. I don't think there's any easy way out, but I assume this movie is going to want to sit in the wake. And it doesn't, really.

It gets out within, like, ten minutes. And it doesn't tell you how he weathered this. It tells you, like, Ferrari was absolved. Like, it wasn't their fault. Like, the car was not responsible for the crash. Right. He hit this thing on the road. But we hear about how he responded to the earlier incidents before.

I mean, you know, that line, Enzo build a wall. Right. That he said to himself, which was basically these awful things are going to happen and you have to like divorce yourself from it. Right. And we see the press like hostile right people basically and we see how upset he is that's the other thing i mean we see how and in fact even with that the test driver who dies not the test drive but during the test drive the guy who dies early in front of the fact that he doesn't seem to care at all

obviously it affects him no but like but like we see that scene with him and penelope cruz because well because that remember that's that's when de portago comes and and says you know introduces himself again for you yeah and after the guy dies you know enzo says de portago called my office in the morning and just like the the music cuts out and it's just like such an abrupt ending but then we see him with um we see him with uh with penelope cruz and she's the one who's actually being kind of cold-hearted about this and he's arguing for like making sure that his family the driver's family gets stuff so you do see this like he's one way you know in public and another way in private and and she's of course

further removed from the people. She's managing the books or whatever. So, right, she's like, well, I don't want to do this. And she's lost everything. So she does not give a shit if other people's families are dying. She's maybe lacking empathy currently. I mean, your letterbox line on this, David, was like Michael Mann makes another movie about how masculinity is a cage.

But I didn't say that in an angry way. I said that in a happy way. No, you said it with multiple exclamation points and swooning heart eye emojis um that's gonna mean we're being a prison i mean it just feels like enzo and uh laura are both like imprisoned in this movie right like and they're trying to figure their way out i think most of his movies are about these men where you're like these men are emotionally shut down i mean my favorite thing you've ever said about michael man when we were discussing thief is like this is the ultimate michael man moment is james khan's monologue where he's got like i got one feeling it's right here in my wallet

and it's tightly folded up right like that's the ultimate distillation of everything michael man right where he just like unfolds a piece of paper that's what deniro is like in heat right this is my one emotion. I allow myself one and I never let it out of my sight. It's here in my leather bifold. And you'll never understand. And these guys who are so tough and shut down and controlled who build a wall, all that shit. But no, if you actually look at it,

all of his movies are about unbelievably fragile men. Men who are arguably too sensitive to handle the world. And so they build these prisons around themselves. They build personas. They build acts that allow them the control. It's why Manhunter was interesting, I'm sure, which is basically about a man who feels too much, right? You know, like, you're 100% right.

A guy who feels too much. And the Manhunter character is the guy who doesn't build the protective wall around himself, and he's fucked. Like, he's's dead inside he's let the world kill him basically right whereas these other guys it's like enzo's like oh no too bad someone died and you're like this guy is overcome with emotion collateral's like about like two personalities right like the ice cold killer and the ultra emotional loser and they like turn into one person as they're driving around right you know like shit like that.

He finds different ways into it. These defensive structures and personas that these guys like build around themselves. What a guy Michael Mann is making these movies. Yeah. For us. But there's the scene where I guess it's whatever the final checkpoint pit stop is where he checks in with each of his racers. Right. And you see him adjust the language and the energy

of how he coaches each one of them right and you're like oh this guy is actually extremely emotionally intelligent right like this isn't even strategic he understand which guy he understands which guy he needs to like sort of hardball which guy he needs to like gently right who he needs to like you know cut down to size and then the moment where he asked for the autograph for his son yeah that's like the one time he ever kind of fully belies a real sense of feeling and vulnerability to someone because even the penelope cruz he has the confession where she's like is this woman different from the other ones when they're talking about shailene woodley and he's like, is this woman different from the other ones? Right. When they're talking about Shailene Woodley

and he's like, I fell in love with her, I'm still in love with her. And it's like, that's the most devastating thing he can possibly say. And you believe that he means it,

but also, he doesn't even really project that energy when he says it to her. And as much as he seems much more comfortable with Shailene Woodley, I wouldn't say he seems

particularly loving. He doesn't seem happy exactly, but he seems calm. He seems relaxed. That little moment when he bites the plate, I love that little moment. Those little gestures. And it's so obvious that it's a sanctuary for him. But that's his love language, is being calm.

It's not like he feels outwardly warm, even when he's being kind to the child or to her. And he was a philanderer, as she's saying, but that's not like he feels outwardly warm, even when he's being kind to the child or to her. And he was a philanderer, as she's saying, but like not, that's not in this movie because that's not important to this movie. Right. Like,

but it's talked about. There are hints of it too. Like, yeah. Like when he says to, to that, to that racers, uh,

girlfriend, he says, I knew your mother. Oh yes. Forgot about that. Yeah. You know, it was just like that awkward little pause and you're just like, ooh.

And again, like, it's a small town, basically. Like, everyone knows everything here. That's another thing in this movie is I'm like, you could believe that there were 10 other Ferrari children. Oh, yeah. That not only do we not know about, but he doesn't even. He doesn't know about, sure. Because, like, Lara not knowing about Linda Lardy, Alina Lardy, sorry. Yeah. She doesn't even... He doesn't know that, sure. Because, like, Lara not knowing about Linda Lardy,

Alina Lardy, sorry. Yeah. She doesn't want to know. She could know, right? Like, she's been holding... She's not looking. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

She's been not looking. The guy at the bank just so directly waves it in front of her face by mistake that she can't ignore it anymore. Has to, right. I love that guy.

The guy at the bank is... He is so haughty. ...making a meal of his little performance there. Yeah. Do Italians like this movie, or will they like this movie? You saw it at Venice. I mean, it's a movie with a bunch of non-Italians playing famous Italians.

But then, like... And then an ensemble of real Italians. The cast is 90% real Italian guys, just not the primary. I understand that's been an approach to making movies about their country their entire existence. I mean, yeah, I Love You to Death, for example, one of the great films about the Italian experience. Very sensitive. Very nuanced. But, like, yeah, do they, how mad are they?

They're not like France about Napoleon. That's like number one reaction, negative reaction that a country can have to a movie. That's a number one reaction, negative reaction that a country can have to a movie. It's a good question. I don't know. I mean, I gathered at Venice, the reaction was muted. I didn't get the sense

that the Italian press was particularly into the movie, but... But they didn't like anything, right? Yeah, they didn't like anything. Yeah, they were always fucking whining, those... They loved Five Nights at Freddy's,

didn't they? Like, because it was like, what? The killer, Ferrari, they're like maestro all these movies that kind of just went over like lead balloons but then poor things had like the most rapturous response of any movie ever it's a very european movie yeah yeah i mean i i was i i was myself not the biggest fan of maestro or the killer yeah i know you're wrong're wrong. A bad person. Rare elf. You are a bad person, and I will tell you. Okay. We can't play the box office game.

No. I have no idea how this movie will do. I don't think it'll do amazing. Again, I think the play is more Europe. It'll make some money on Christmas just from the adult market. That's my question. Movie for grownups. They've marketed it well.

They have. I don't think this movie is going to hold. I don't think, I don't imagine it will have long legs at the box office. I'm mostly curious, how many people do they trick into seeing this opening weekend? Like, this feels like the, what's it called? George Clooney's The American.

Good movie, though. But like, they created the exact poster and trailer that felt most like a thriller where people were like oh George Clooney in a suit with a gun

and the opening weekend it did well and then everyone went like no thank you but this is not the kind of bait and switch that the American not to that degree

the American is I mean like two hours of George Clooney assembling a gun sure he fucking files down bits and pieces he screws things in. I mean, I think, actually, the last trailer I saw for Ferrari,

I think does a good job of conveying the kind of movie it is. Yes. And it has big emotions. I mean, it has great racing sequences. It does. You know, I think it's actually a very entertaining movie. Doug is wearing a giant neon sweatshirt right now. No, it's like, this Christmas, this Christmas.

This is the ad read. You've got movies for families. So you have like Wonka, you know, you have The Color Purple. You have, I mean, that's actually not a movie for families exactly, but it's sort of a... It's a movie for families where the kids have grown up. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. This is my whole thing with The Color Purple, where I watch, and I can talk about this now, I guess, right?

You know, because it'll come out. Yeah. But, like, where I'm just like, who the fuck wants a musical, like, an uplifting musical about this? I don't understand this. It was a hit musical. It was.

But also, you know, I mean, I was a kid when The Color Purple, the Spielberg Color Purple movie opened, and that was a big hit, and that was a movie that kids went to. That movie is good, yes, and it was, right, it sort of is in that weird family zone, even though it's about very, very distressing things. But also, that was the era where more movies had this sort of Oppenheimer thing of like, we have a cultural obligation to see this. It's a big cultural movie. This is a major director working on a major subject.

We all have to go. But okay, so there's Wonka. There's, you know, Aquaman 2. The Lost Kingdom. There's Migration. Yeah. I still don't know what that movie is. It's Terrence Malick's new film.

It's about birds. I have some news for you. I don't think the director, writer, or producers of that film know what that movie is. I saw a trailer for it and I still don't remember. No, there, or producers of that film know what that movie is. I saw a trailer for it, and I still don't remember. No, there's The Boys in the Boat, which you have told me is like A-plus mid-filmmaking from Clooney. I've seen The Boys in the Boat. I've seen it twice.

Twice, folks. He got back in the boat. Well, I'm a crew dad now. Oh, you're a summer spirit. Yeah, I'm a crew parent now. So I had some, you know, just vested interest in seeing it. You have your own boy in his own boat. I have my own boy.

I have a boy in a boat. These just all feel like movies that are going to make like $10 to $20 million, except for Aquaman, which will make more, but, you know, obviously feels a little doomed. Right, or will it? Have you seen the migration trailer that is like 75% footage from other Illumination movies? No. Oh, I did see this. I believe that. It's the same

as that final The Marvels trailer that's all like Downey Jr. and Chris Evans and they're like, remember other Marvel movies? That trailer being released

like two days before that movie came out was... The stink on that trailer. It was sad. It was sad. I think that trailer might have actually

taken 10 million out of that movie. Yeah, definitely. But all of the migration trailers do that. And you're like, this isn't even like the teaser trailer a year out. Right. This movie's coming out and the trailer is like 40% Minions, 20% Secret Life of Pets. Yeah, right.

At the end they're like, and now meet our geese. Bye. Movie as bottle episode. Yeah. Like a bottle episode. Well, they used to have those. They used to have like the That's Entertainment movies and stuff, like, films that were just basically

one studio. It's like, here are some of the best scenes from our movies. What about Vine, the movie? We just do a 70-minute movie that's just everyone's favorite Vines

that they forgot, you know? I had to drop a name, but Past and Future Guests. I had the best conversation with Paul F. Tompkins about That's entertainment and like sure trying to explain that to someone today where you're like they used to make super cuts right put them in theaters and they were huge hits or demo like this is cinorama yeah like the demo

reel terror in the aisles just anytime you look up those you know old box offices and it's like what was this movie it's like it's just fucking hot air balloon footage for 90 minutes. It's just people just wanted to see something. And it was the number three movie of 1965. Where it's just like around the world with the balloons. Like, and it, you know. Or like the, what was it called? The Search for Noah's Ark.

I love those. Some pseudo scientific nonsense. But you're like a thing that could only exist in a pre-internet era where they bought a bunch of TV ads and people were like, fuck, they might have actually found it. But no one could communicate that the movie was full of shit once the screening started. Who made us watch that fucking thing in school? Everyone had to find out for themselves. Everyone had to go and see it and be like, I wish someone had told me. Oh, boy.

So, yeah, I mean, Iron Claw is sort of the only other movie coming out around chris my question making the play for kind of like the grown-up audience and iron claw is like a power ballad movie and this is like an opera break out have you seen iron claw i haven't seen it's an excellent film that film's gonna i know dave is a big fan breakout commercially and maybe i'm wrong about this i think that it's going to um do fairly well uh and then hold quite well it's a24 right yes it's a24 i think a20 i don't know this is me completely off the top of my head it's not like they've told me this but i imagine they they're hoping for like kind of like a 40 to 50 you know that would be like really good for them right like on this like dark movie about suicide and misery like it's coming out make up

the money that beau is afraid lost it's coming out on christmas and it like isn't going wide until the second week of january and there's kind of nothing else in january yes that's obviously the other thing is it's just we have this weird winter ahead right of like not a lot of movies like if i'm netflix i would put rebel moon in theaters, but I'm not. Put the Hitman in theaters. Remember when they made that fucking deal because they wanted to, a guarantee would come out by the end of 2023.

And that's why they claim they took Netflix over the other distributors who would have held it until 24. And now the movie isn't going on Netflix this year. Everybody keeps falling for this. It's driving me crazy. Don't fucking fall for it. You listening, Richie?

Movie's good, though. But, like, drives me insane that they were like, well, the Fox searchlight would have kept it until 24, so we have to go with Netflix. Guess what? That's where it belongs, is 2024. And it'll do great, except it's going to be on Netflix, so maybe it won't.

But Ferrari, I predict $9 million opening weekend, but, like, 12 over the 5 day I have no idea I don't know what to predict for this movie I don't either like I predict solid European numbers

yeah I predict like kind of like neither fish nor fowl results right like it'll be like not a failure

but not like it's kind of in an ideal place because STX went under where you're like the distributor who now has it it's sort of free money for neon. That's a good point. Yeah.

Right? I don't know. I mean, this movie has come out right now, right? Yes. When this episode is airing, it's been out for a week or so. So we'll look like idiots if we predict anything. We will. We will, and yet I'm addicted to looking like an idiot. Yeah. Will Michael Mann make Heat 2?

He wrote this book. He really wants to make heat with a collaborator the idea sounds crazy to me yeah um what's the idea i thought top gun maverick was crazy too you know i mean yes so it's basically a prequel and sequel right have you read that i mean it's yeah it's a prequel and sequel although it's funny because when he talks about it he talks about it as if it were only a prequel. Right. Because when I talk to him about it, he's like, you know, the challenge is like finding out, you know, Who can play these guys?

Who can be the kind of person that can then become, you know, Robert De Niro's Neil McCullough. Which I'm like, well, what about like, or, you know, we're talking about Chris Sheherlis or whatever. It's like, well, what about the guy that's going to be him after? Right. You know? Right.

But that's why I almost wonder if his notion for the movie is you don't do the sequel part of it and you only do the prequel. Because when he talks about it as a film, that's the only part he's mentioned. Right. And I've asked him about this, too.

He hasn't answered. He can't really do it with Val today. Yeah. I think maybe in his mind, he's thinking, I don't know this for a fact. This is just me speculating. I wonder if he's thinking,

we'll do the prequel. Yes. Like. That's a film. Right. Because at the time, at the time I interviewed him also, the strike was still on.

So he was kind of like, like he could talk about stuff like, oh, you know. He could be like, I love Daniel Driver who I just worked with in this movie. That's a waiver. But also,

every press appearance and event they're doing together, they still basically keep on saying like, wouldn't it be fun if we did two together? Assuming Driver would be playing De Niro. Yeah.

If it happens. I mean, I don't think anybody's green with this thing yet. I mean, I think it's very much a kind of, who, I mean, I think Michael Mann's green with this thing yet I mean I think it's very much a kind of who

I mean I think Michael Mann is one of those guys he's like I will just talk about this movie until it just becomes kind of a fate

accomplice Arnold owns Heat if anyone it was a Warner Brothers movie right is it not New Regency it might be Regency

like does he need anyone or can anyone make Heat 2 I guess is the question it went like could any studio sweep in tomorrow and be like Heat 2? I guess is the question. Could any studio sweep in tomorrow and be like, Heat 2? On home video, it went from, in the last five years,

being a Warner Brothers title to being a Fox title. Which makes me think New Regency has the underlying rights, period. But that's no big deal because they can go anywhere. They can go anywhere. So he should just do that. You can greenlight a prequel to anything now. That's the thing. It's like his one franchise thing he can kind of point to and a movie whose cultural value just keeps increasing.

Right? I mean, I'd watch a Miami Vice sequel. Well, we all would. Okay. What is the... Okay. So you'd have to... That is so crazy to me because it's like you'd have to

get farrell on board now colin farrell's stock is kind of hotter than ever yeah that movie represents a tough time in his life personal well you could you could pretend like he never made it because he doesn't remember yeah you could be like we're making miami vice two you just you don't say the two yes did you sneeze uh sure exciting new project taking over from taking over from the beloved don johnson yes right right for the first time you've never had this conversation you keep saying that in press or it's like yeah i studied the performance you're gonna be the second person to ever play crockett so for the second time jamie foxx and michael mann had a tough time making that movie together and i they never made a movie again after having made like

four movies together before yeah tough health round he has to maybe be on the other side of it he seems to be on the other side of it he just absolutely shattered the backboard with the greatest performance given in cinema with in the burial i don't know if you've seen the burial have you gotten that's the movie to see i've seen the burial how many times you've seen the burial i've only seen it once you gotta take out that trouble he's very good in the burial. He's great in that film, but like, could he and man patch things up?

I mean, I don't think a vice-celebrity is I just like the thought experiment. Yeah, no. Naomi Harris is harder than ever. Justin Theroux, get him

back. Yeah. Fucking the guy from The Wire. Everyone loves him. Barry Shabaka Henley is like... Did he make it?

Yeah, he still... Wait, didn't he die? No. Okay, he's stronger than ever. No. Right? No. What are you talking about? Barry Shabaka Henley. like... Did he make it? Yeah, he still... Wait, didn't he die? No. Okay, he's stronger than ever. No, right? What are you talking about? Barry Shabaka Henley. No, he's still alive.

Barry Shabaka Henley's alive. Okay, just checking. Okay, okay. You really scared me for a second there. Well, because he played, you know, he played Castilla, right? Like, it's an important role. Yeah. Okay.

Gong Li? Get her back? Get her back. All right, fine. You don't want to play this game with me. No, no, I mean, I would love to see that. I mean, look, I love Miami Boys. You know this.

We both love it. I mean, here's the thing. It's like, again, anytime anyone announces a prequel or a sequel to anything, a part of me dies. Of course. Still, even to this day. I die a lot.

You've died many times. I died many times. But then something like Maverick comes out, and I'm just like, well, if you're going to make it like that, yeah, I'm all for it, you know? Absolutely. I mean...

You're right that that's a movie that shouldn't work. It's also a movie that is far better than its predecessor. Absolutely. But obviously, it can't exist without its predecessor. Right. I mean, Heat is on my sight and sound list. So the idea of them making a sequel to it is kind of like, I mean, I'll see it. Yeah.

I weirdly would not be worried about the legacy of Heat being affected by a Heat sequel. No. If that makes sense. It's also the fact that he like soft launched it with the book, you know? Yeah. That makes sense. It's also the fact that he like soft launched it with the book, you know, where it's like, okay, so people have had their time to like sit with his notions of the continuation and people generally like the book. And the book is fascinating. I mean, the book reads like, you know, like somebody just like Michael Mann just like

opened up his brain and just like let everything pour out. I mean, it's like a greatest hits kind of thing and it's you know if that's what heat 2 winds up being as a movie i can't imagine that i wouldn't enjoy that no looking at your your science well i just i don't know to what degree at this point it's like internet fan casting that's getting re-reported as rumor this is actually the indication but everyone just always says well it would just be Adam Driver and Oscar Isaac and Austin Butler, right? Like that's the assumption

that those are the three guys. I've never seen High Tide, the Jillian Armstrong movie that you put on your sight and sound list. Great. Another movie that first time I saw it, I was a little mixed on. Wow.

But also actually reminds me of what you were saying about reviews of films. Like High Tide for me is one of those films. I remember it opened in D.C. when I was a kid, 87. And I read, I believe, a Washington Post review of it that was mixed. Okay. But it did the thing that I think all reviews should do, ideally, which is it gave me such a sense of the movie that I could read it and say, oh, this sounds interesting. Like, I want to go see this movie.

This sounds like something I would enjoy. And I went and saw it, and I enjoyed it, but I was mixed on it. I mean, you know, I was 14. And then over the years, as I kept revisiting, I was like, no, no,

this is actually one of the greatest films I've ever seen. Bill, I just have to push back on what you're saying. That's not the job of a critic. A job of a film critic is to tell people that their taste in movies

that they've already established is good, and that's why you have to rank the most successful films as the top films of any given year. This is true. If you pick an obscure movie, you're just showing off. The role of a critic is to collect checks every day from every

studio to lick their boots over and over again. No, no, no, no, no. From Disney. Just from Disney. Just from Disney. Just from Disney, who tells us the new Zack Snyder movie coming out from Warner Brothers. Your mission

is to destroy that movie and destroy him. And in return, we will give you $100. God, I love those 100 smackers. Yeah. I buy so many sandwiches. They are Mickey bucks.

You have to. Yeah, they're Mickey bucks. They're Disney dollars. I can only get Mickey sandwiches. Yeah. But that is why I am the way I am. No, I don't know. When I put Oppenheimer on my list, someone at Universal emailed me the same day being like, hey, what's your address?

And then he replied again like a minute later being like, I realize this actually looks kind of weird. We're sending out a screen or whatever. We're not sending you a check. It was funny. Thanks for coming, Bilge. I don't know. We're done with Ferrari, right?

Yeah, you're the best. It was an inexcusably long time since we've had you on. Let's do Malek. Do Tree of Life. I mean, right? Yeah. You're the best. It was an inexcusably long time since we'd had you on. Let's do Malick. Do Tree of Life. I mean, we're talking, we've been talking more and more recently about doing Malick, which feels like an obvious one to bring you on for. I just wrote... Tree of Life's on your site in Soundless.

That's why I brought it up. Tree of Life is absolutely on my site. And if Tree of Life didn't exist, Days of Heaven would be on there. Days of Heaven now in theaters. Although I guess by the time this... I just filed a review of Days of Heaven, which just feels so surreal. That's fun. Yeah.

First time I've ever written about that film, which is amazing. Wow. I can't see Days of Heaven in a film. That would be on my personal second sound. It's a good movie. Yeah. And look, if it wasn't on there, it'd be because I'm feeling saucy and I'd flip in New World instead. Yeah.

But I would unquestionably put one of the two. Has never been My Malick. But I love it. Thin Red Line. Yeah. See, I'd say New World is My Malick,

but if I'm trying to address what is, what are the top ten. You know what? Badlands was the first one I saw, which I love. It's a great movie. But Thin Red Line

was the first one where I was like, this, I understand this on some level. I can articulate that was i saw new world in theater the new world fucking rocks i i saw it in those three days before they removed the first cut from the theaters and it blew my fucking this is why we gotta do malik the journey of malik movies in theaters yeah that i've been through is you know i remember i went to see thin red line when it came oh like opening day it was like christmas release if i remember you know, I remember I went to see Thin Red Line. When it came out. Like opening day. Right.

It was like Christmas release, if I remember correctly. It was. That's right. And I went to like the first show at the Ziegfeld and morning show. And I just sat there. Ironically enough, I ran into a friend from high school. But we were sitting there and you just heard over the course of the next three hours just like a piece of seats folding back up as they left the theater. One of those guys was George Clooney.

He was like, where am I? I don't see myself anywhere. I mean, it was hilarious. And then I remember the New World when I actually went to like press screenings for that. But then I went to one of those all medias where they actually invited regular civilians to see it. And afterwards, there were people- We want a hot crowd for you. Yeah, yeah.

Afterwards, there were people in the lobby, like total strangers bonding over how much they hated that. I remember this woman walked out and she saw another woman and she pointed at her and started laughing and saying, you hated it as much as I did, didn't you?

And they both started laughing. These two people, they'd never met before and they're like, it was like, people who'd been through Cinema brings people together. It was people who'd been

through a battle together. I was in high school when it came out and I think I saw it four times in theaters and I kept dragging friends to see it and they were like,

what the fuck are you on about? People would get angry at me. I dragged a friend the first time and then I didn't make it. That's the thing. It was like this fool me thrice thing where I was like, why do I keep thinking I can bring 15 year olds and they're going to have the same reaction that I did? Somebody came, people would come up

to me, not knowing I was a critic and not knowing I was a huge fan of this film, just randomly telling me how much they hated The New World. Like I'd be at a party and somebody would come up to me and be like, have you seen this movie called The New World?

It's like the worst piece of shit I've ever seen. And I'm like, I haven't seen it like six times. I love it. Perhaps one of the great films ever made. Yep.

But yeah, no, the real weirdness is we didn't have you on for Kubrick. That was a fuck up on our part. Sorry. In terms of the big Bill Kubrick filmmakers.

I've talked about Kubrick a lot. We've all talked about Kubrick a lot. We're not going to ever do it again. Thank God. If he makes a new film. David. David, if he makes a new film, we are...

Would we cover if that Napoleon series ever happened? Ooh, interesting. Assuming Fukunaga is probably not involved. That's a real we make a decision closer to.

You guys did do Fear and Desire, right? On the Kubrick thing? Yeah, sure did. Yeah. I had mixed feelings on that film. Which is also being restored. There's like a new 4K restoration of that as well? Getting re-released?

The funny thing about Fear and Desire is, for many years, as you know, it was impossible to see. And Kubrick wouldn't allow people to see it. I went to college and in college, it turned out the guy who ran the film study center at Yale had a 16 millimeter copy print of Fear and Desire that he had gotten when he was like working at like a 16 millimeter rental house as a teenager. And they just had a copy there and they sold it to him for like five dollars or something and that was the print that the museum of modern art had struck its print from oh wow and he was like this is the only place where you'll ever be able to see this movie and he just like projected it for me um and that was you know i

cannot remember who it is but at one of these these disgusting New York media elite post-screening cocktail soirees, I was talking to someone about the podcast and directors we covered and brought up Kubrick. And they said, have you seen Fear and Desire? And I went, yeah, no, we do. If we cover someone, we cover all of their films. And he said, my mother or grandmother is the woman in fear and desire the tree tied to the tree right yes and it was this like thing that for so long we were like she was in kubrick's first movie and none of us can see it that's cool and then finally got to see it anyway if you're that person remind me who you were because i had this conversation i can't remember who it was with um yeah we'll

just do another fear and desire episode yeah and Yeah, and Bill will come back on. That's your favorite one, right? Yeah, five hours on Fear and Desire. I think we made 90 minutes, maybe. Did we combine it with Killer's Kiss? I think we did. Yes. Yeah, we did do a combo episode with Killer's Kiss.

Which is also good. Killer's Kiss is good. Killer's Kiss is good. But, oh, fuck. You know what I found out, tied to this? My grandmother is in Killer's kiss what she's in like the dance hall sequence cool wow like in the background yeah and she kept saying i'm in the movie wearing a bright red dress i'm like grandma it's black and white i'm not seeing shit and i

thought she was full of shit and then she pulled it up on criteria and it took a picture on her phone of the tv and i'm like that is her in the scene knowing what i know about your grandmother it's pretty impressive that she pulled something up on Criterion and took a picture of it. She's not a very grandmother thing. She's not a very tech-savvy woman, right. No. So that took a lot of effort.

Right. She sent me that photo, and it was followed by a phone call of, my phone caught on fire. Can you come over and fix it? My TV's spitting at me. We could talk about poetic films that alienated audiences

on their release. People's grandmothers in a release. It is kind of the blank check ethos. That's what you get to do after you get the blank check, right? I do think there's

a whole generation of kids like me and Griffin who when, like, those Malick movies came out, like, were initiated into, like, another level of thinking about movies

by them. No no that was a real this has changed my perception of the language of cinema and part of it is the culture around me being like this movie is a stinker it's a partly that and there's partly like sinny ass of an older generation telling me like you don't understand how long we've been waiting for this right and part of it was also he did not make any movies in the 80s or for most of the 90s yeah and as a result thin red line even though it's very different from like a days of heaven it feels like a movie made by someone who did not have to suffer through the film industry of the 80s it's just like right i'm just gonna i'm just gonna do this yeah and i got this for you

i'll never be mad at jim caviezel because of that movie same here yeah he can sound of freedom all he likes yeah to be clear he he should have stepped on the joke i want to make oh what were you about to say i i you you said i'll never be mad at him because of uh thin red line i was gonna say that's how i feel about him in sound of freedom and then you called out sound of freedom as a mistake well that's what i was thinking of right i was gonna play the role of the fool right you understand the to play the role of the fool. Right. You understand? The comedic archetype of the fool.

He made some good movies. Yeah. He's made some good movies. Sound of Freedom. He just seems like a bit of an aggro dude, but, you know, him getting in the water. I think he might be unwell. I think he might be unwell. I've heard he's not great to work with.

Yeah. But Thin Red Line, though. Yeah. He's basically like the best. Great, great, great, great movie. We'll do it one day. We'll do it. We'll have you on for that.

We wanted to do it this summer. We'll have you on for one day. And then we decided not to because Marie made a face. No. But we'll do it eventually. I think to quote Marie, her response was, Bowling. But that doesn't mean

we won't do it. And David and I stepped outside and touched the tree. Yeah, right. I twirled up and down some stairs. Goodbye.

Bilga, you're the best. Thank you so much, guys. I feel like I've said this to you before, but my mother's favorite episodes of the podcast, she listens selectively.

Wow. But she always tunes in when you're on and Chris Weitz are on because you're sophisticated adults with relaxing voices. And she feels like you elevate the intelligence of the show. Anything specific you want to plug? I mean, all your writing on Ferrari has been great, Michael Mann.

You're a vulture? Yeah. I mean, I'm actually working on two other pieces about Ferrari, which will probably be published by the time this is done. to plug i mean all your writing on ferrari has been great michael man uh thank you yeah i mean i'm actually working on two other pieces about ferrari which will probably have published by the time not supposed to hear this yeah that sounds great and uh you're gonna plug the additional five times you watch for hurry between yeah by the time now that i actually have like a screener of it all bets are off my son still hasn't seen it and he's he wants to see it i'm like well i guess that's what we're doing this weekend. Off to the races. Thank you for being here, Belga, and thank you all for listening.

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for associate producing this show and saying that she thinks Terrence Malick is boring. Thank you to AJ McKeon and Alex Barron for our editing. Joe Bowen and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Liam Montgomery and the Great American all for our theme song. JJ Birch for enjoying another week of vacation.

You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit, including Blank Check's special features, our Patreon, where we do commentaries on film series. We're doing the Terminator movies. We'll have just done The Love guru to close out our awesome power series easily one of the worst films we've ever talked about in any form

absolutely ever ever ever horrible movie you've seen it oh yeah eight times i'm trying to think if i've seen it more than once no i don't think so that was that's the rare one and done for you that That's back when I was only watching movies once in my salad years. Wow. Wow. Well, you can

check that out. And as always, I need to offer a very important correction. Shailene Woodley suntans her vagina, not her butthole.

Is that how we want to end? It was an important serious correction okay