Blank Check with Griffin & David - Flesh+Blood

Episode Date: January 7, 2018

This week’s episode begins a new mini series (Podship Casters) covering the Hollywood films of director Paul Verhoeven. Already an accomplished filmmaker in the Netherlands, 1985 marked his American debut with the unpleasantly realistic period piece, Flesh+Blood. But how gross was the medieval times? What was the influence of growing up under Nazi occupation on Verhoeven’s worldview? Is it intended for the viewer to root for the plague? Together, Griffin and David discuss his original Dutch movies, Bosch paintings, and how Flesh+Blood’s failure at the box office would inform his study of American culture and his future films.

My father's half dead, my bride has been captured, and you're babbling on about podcasts? What's the line? Seedlings? Okay. Okay, great. The other one that's good is, bless you, Martin. Your reward is in heaven. I'd rather get paid sooner, sir, if you don't mind.

That's a good line. Yeah. But it's not like a podcast. Yeah. Right. I'd rather get podcasts soon. If you don't podcast. I don't know who gives a shit. Hi everybody, my name is Griffin Newman.

David Sims. This is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. Wait, what the fuck is the name of the miniseries? I'm going to tell you. Oh great, we don't know. Guys, I don't know what it is. He's going to tell me. I'm going to tell you.

But you're going to head up everything. Because this is a podcast about filmography. I know, I is. He's going to tell me. All right. I'm going to tell you. But you're going to head up. Everything. Because this is a podcast about filmography. I know. I know. I just realized. I'm sorry. I panicked.

Directors who experience massive success early on issue a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes their check's clear. Jing! Yep. And then you just go about your day. I'll have a small coffee, please. Honey, how was your day?

Kids, good day at school. Go to sleep. Wake up the next morning. Check your app. Oh, no. Check is still clear. Check is still clear. Yeah.

But sometimes they bounce, baby. Boing. Your life's in chaos. Excuse me. Could I have a cup of coffee? Here's your fucking coffee. Honey, how was your day today? Fuck you.

Kids, how was school? Fuck you, dad. kick him in the nards i'm sorry tony cirico is one of the kids yes paulie walnuts himself this is a film i'm pitching where tony cirico does the clumps and plays every member of the family oh boy and the coffee man you know how many times tony cirico was arrested for organized crime activity? No. 28. I worked with makeup people who worked on The Sopranos who are great.

Shout out to Stephen Kimbra. And they worked for the whole round of the show. And they were telling me that a recurring issue was that David Chase was so into getting these real guys who had the real history. No, I mean, that's part of the success, isn't it? Yeah. Right.

And then they constantly had like actors who couldn't come to set because there were arrest warrants out for them. And there was one guy in particular, I don't remember who it was,

I don't think it was a big part, but he like showed up on set and was like, okay, I'm ready for work. And they're like, you got to get the fuck out of here. Like it's the only show in history where the production

was telling actors not to show up. He was like, but I learned my lines. No, you fucking want it. I learned my lines. Oh! That was the line he learned. Oh! This is a podcast about the Sopranos.

I'd love to do a podcast about the Sopranos. Do you know I have, I think, only seen two episodes? That's nuts. It's the seen two episodes. That's nuts. It's the best TV show. That's what I'm told. I think it's like Citizen Kane where we have to sort of just stop being like, but what is it this?

It's like, no, it's like Sopranos. That was the show that did it. Can I just point out, we're going to be coming off of a run of six weeks, almost two months with no new miniseries because we had this quarter in the fall where all our sort of running series. Spielberg's there. Spielberg. Star Wars. We had another sibling.

We had another DC universe. Right, right. Avatar Land. I went to Avatar Land. So people have been like chomping at the bit, right? Right. For a new miniseries. And now we're talking about The Sopranos for five minutes.

Yeah, well it's on HBO now. Let me swing. Crack! It's the sound of a new miniseries soaring off and it's out of here. That's how baseball commentators speak, right? Soaring off. Snap, crack and it's soaring off into out of here.

What's the name of the miniseries? Jesus Christ. It's my fault, people. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We just haven't seen each other a little bit and it's exciting, but yeah. Yes. This is one I've been dying to do since our very early days i feel like this is one of the guys we always talked about yeah and it just felt like it's fucking time let's do it this feels like a good zag you know sure yeah we were like this is the moment well the moment we decided was different than the moment when we started recording, which is also different than the moment when you will be hearing this episode.

Correct, correct, correct. Moments slipping between our fingers. Yes. But we are covering one of my favorite filmmakers of all time, Paul Verhoeven. That's right. And a miniseries that I have just decided, because we're recording this so far in advance, that I wasn't going to do the vote. I wasn't going to ruin it. And I went through the titles, and recording this so far in advance that I wasn't going to do the vote. I wasn't going to ruin it. And I went through the titles

and I only think there's one that really, really works. Podship Casters. Sure. There's really nothing that works. That's fine. I think it's that or or Podcasthofen. Yeah. Podship Casters. This mini-series

is called Podship Casters. Greatiseries is called Potship Casters great now this is for the second time ever a conditional miniseries get excited we're putting ellipses around this baby yeah we like people to listen to the show

and have seen the movies and be able to watch the movies easily and more and more people have been asking us about certain directors who just have unwieldy filmographies where we just can't do it. And so I think you're going to see us more and more oscillating between directors with manageable filmographies. Yeah.

You know, 10 is kind of the ideal number, right? 10 to 12 is the 12 tops. We have a couple people coming up who have made fewer films. We're going to have a couple nice little short miniseries. Pow! Yeah, you know, just a little in and out. And it's off and out of here. Yep, boxing.

But I think more and more you're going to see us when there is a good sort of chunk of a career that has a sort of, you know, a feeling to it, a bubble around it. Yeah. A self-contained period. Jesus. Yes.

Yeah, we're doing his English language movies, is what you're saying. The Hollywood films. Yeah. Right. So we're going from 1985 to 2000. That's where the check is blank. That's when, yes, the check is blank here. Yeah.

Before that, he's making Dutch movies. Hey. Those Dutch movies are very hard to see. And funded by the government. Yes. So is that a blank check? I don't know. Right.

Kind of, but, but like with conditions. Sure. Um, I today pulled the trigger and bought the long out of print Paul Verhoeven box set released by Anchor Bay in like 1999 of all the Dutch films. Oh, cool. It goes for way too much money. How much do you spend on this?

I spend $150. That's a lot of money. The going price on Amazon is $400. So this is Business is Business Turkish Delight Soldier of Orange

All Things Past The Fifth Man Spetters The Fourth Man I always get the number wrong. And something called Keep your tipple. I don't know. Spetters. The Fourth Man. Fourth Man. I always get the number wrong. And something called Keep Je Dippel. Yes.

I don't know. Yeah. Yes. That's what's in there? So I bought that box set. I will be watching those movies over the course of recording this miniseries.

So I may throw in hot takes at some point. I'm not going to have like a little fucking segment sidebar but I'm saying I just want to be able to contrast.

No, we'll talk about it but yeah, we can't. We look. We can't. I've seen Turkish Delight and I saw Spetters a long time ago. I've seen some of them. I haven't seen any of them. But we couldn't do a fucking Spetters episode.

A lot of dick in that movie. Oh, I'm excited then. Soft Dutch dick. My favorite kind. But yes, we A, the track is blank at this period of time My favorite kind. But yes, we... A, the check is blank at this period of time. And B, we can't do five consecutive episodes on movies that...

Guys, we're trying to make money here. ...even harder to watch than half the Bigelow films, which were... Look, I mean, thank you for listening to those episodes. We got a lot of listeners who still followed along, even though the movies were impossible to see. Yep. And hopefully they become more readily available. But this movie movie is on amazon prime if you want to watch it and hulu yes um it is it's kind of much like when we covered uh the lost world jurassic park it's sort of a tweener it's kind of the bridge film between the two phases

because he started out his first handful of films and his work in tv all was funded by the dutch government right pretty much you know i mean it's i'm sure there was some private fun but you know it's like that's it's european filmmaking in the 70s like yes there's an infrastructure to provide like for national art right and that also gives them some say and also well he made turkish delight which was this genuine box office smash it like cost a few hundred thousand kroner or whatever the fuck not to just diss a dead currency and it made millions and millions more you know like it made like 10 times its budget it was a big d smash, which is funny because it's like a super sexually explicit romance. But it was kind of like right place, right time.

It tapped into a sexual revolution. Right time, any time. Right, yeah, sure. Yeah, no, yeah, sure, for sure. And these governments, you know, even these countries where the government has a more active role in the funding and the distribution of the arts. Britain's like it too.

They like making money. If something's a hit, you know? I mean, I remember because Britain has cut back on its national funding because of conservative government among other things.

But there was also, yeah, it's like, when some movie... How do you know about that? Put it in the Big Ben chimes. Oh, I plan on it. Big Ben over here. The Big Ben chimes?

Yeah. The Producer Ben chimes? Oh, no. The Benducer chimes? Okay. The Purdueer Ben chimes? Let's see what's on Twitter. The The Big Ben Chimes? Yeah. The Producer Ben Chimes? No, no. The Benducer Chimes? Okay. The Produer Ben Chimes? Let's see what's on Twitter. The Mr. Positive Chimes?

The Haas Chimes? The Mr. Positive Chimes? The Birthday Benny Chimes? The Dirt Bike Benny Chimes? The Fuckmaster Chimes? For who the Ben tolls? That's my noise for a great Ben bit. You more what are you done what is happening with you you look frozen in time the meat lover chimes the fart detective chimes the peeper chimes

our finest film critic chimes can i ask you a question are they professor crispy's turn no okay no sorry those times have graduated certain tells over the course of different miniseries that Are they Professor Crispy's chimes? No. Okay. No. Sorry. Those chimes have graduated to certain titles over the course of different miniseries. That is true. Such as? Well, what's? Kylo Ben chimes. Yeah.

Producer Ben Kenobi chimes. Mm-hmm. Ben H. Allen chimes. Right. Say Ben-ything chimes. Yeah. Ben-sate chimes. Yeah. Hayley Ben's with the dollar sign chimes.

Right. We haven't recorded an episode in like six weeks. I'm forgetting that. All right. Anyway, fucking we're done with it. All right. What were we even talking about? We're talking about the British funding of the film industry.

We are rusty. That's all right. Creaky, creaky. Yeah. No one's listening to this one anyway, right? I guess some people will. Everyone's listening to this one. Everyone.

This is his least watched movie of the movies we're going to cover. Sure. It's his only movie that wasn't a huge financial success or showgirls, which was in the end a huge financial success. But that's how our first episodes usually go. Yeah. Except for our next miniseries. Hint, hint, hint, hint.

Although that movie was a bomb. His first movie that's not true oh I mean not him not him sorry it's the next one whose first movie was a bomb

soundboard sims over here hint hint you remember it's that old Tig Notaro bit the clown horn you know it's good

it's good it's really easy to do so the Dutch government is funding his movies well no no no no let's go back okay what are we what kind of context give me some context baby so often when my girlfriend is struggling to sleep humblebrag yes uh she will uh be like why like read uh some boring shit to me so i'll

fall asleep really yes this is a common dynamic for us because i love to read call up say like europa on wikipedia the planet your moon europa okay he does protest too much and just read facts you know over here europa signaling my voice will send her straight to sleep like which i don't know if that's really a compliment or not so it sounds like you hate europa uh last night why did i bring probably reading the wikipedia yeah geez you don't know if that's really a compliment or not. It sounds like you hate Europa. Last night, probably reading the Wikipedia. You don't know that shit off the back of your hand? Damn. I got a Europa tattoo.

On the back of your hand? This Europa fuckboy over here. For the listener at home, Ben is holding up the back of his hand and I can verify I swear to God he's got a Europa tattoo on the back of it. Fake news. Alright. Not true. Oh. Alright.

So Paul Verhoeven. So I read his Wikipedia page yesterday. Allowed. That's more like a bedtime nightmare. Exactly. Cause I knew enough. Cause I remember reading an interview with him in Empire Magazine when I was a wee boy. When Hollow Man was coming out, his last

Hollywood movie. Yes. In which he talked a lot about how he grew up in Holland during Nazi occupation. Okay, great. Because I have a similar anecdote I want to tell. And how much he thinks that affected his view of violence and the evil that people

do. I saw him do a Q&A after screening a robocop oh sure okay about a year ago they did a full verhoeven it was called total verhoeven he's an old man these days at lincoln center yeah he's almost 80 dude still fucking got his fastball sure sure yeah it's up and it's off and out of here it does sound like gold member right he does yes okay because we're gonna do a lot of Goldmember on this. Right. He asked the audience if they want a blintz and a hookah.

Shmoaking a pancake. But there were two quotes he said just about the origins of his career and his artistic sensibility I thought were very tell. One of them was a more specific version of that where someone asked him about the level of violence and sexuality in his films.

Sure. Which, let's just say, these are, these movies, these movies are... They're not for everybody. They're not for everybody. Is one way to put it.

I was going to say slippery, but they're tricky movies. They're challenging and they're aggressive at times. He's dealing with loaded guns all the time. Sure. Right? Yeah.

I think it's more like he likes to fire guns. Yes. At you. Right. But he's dealing with loaded guns all the time sure right yeah i think it's more like he likes to fire guns yes at you right but he's dealing with very loaded heavy subjects and he's always feature a lot of sexual abuse yes a lot of extreme violence right uh he's a lot of depravity of of human yeah he's kind of all in a lot of ways then the answer to what hollywood was doing in the 80s and uh you know i think we talked about it a little bit when we were talking about kingsman a way back we're talking about right these people who are like i'm showing you what you do just in a much less sanitized way that's verhoeven's kind of i thought you liked this right is that he turns

subtext into text sure right yeah uh he underlines things but but should be noted that over the course of this main series and discussing these films, we're going to discuss a lot of things that are uncomfortable. That might be uncomfortable for people. Just be aware, I guess, in general, of the triggers you may experience that are just requisite with discussing any Paul Verhoeven plot synopsis. Yeah. But he said

the two things that kind of really formed him were when he was a very young boy he saw a Heronius Bosch painting. Heronius Bosch. Isn't it? Jesus Christ. Okay.

Wow. Got real tense in here. It's cold like Europa. David. Chili. What? The surface of Europa is cold. I know. Okay. Alright right for the listener at home

david's reading that off of his phone he doesn't even know that he said he saw this painting that was like a big war tableau right and you know this bloody awful you know uh yes rape and murder and all this sort of uh the battle between heaven and hell going on and the background of the painting there was a man uh leaning against a shed taking a shit i've heard this story too or maybe you've told me this and paul verhoeven said these are the kind of films i want to make this is the art i want to make oh boy yeah but bosh is like you look at those paintings and they kind of are the like classical art version of what verhoeven is doing in cinema this sort of maximalist expressionist that's why he works in hollywood because he's

like i'll use your money right oh yeah like i want to make as big widescreen a movie as i can and you kind of want to turn it back on the system right but sort of address the ills and of humanity and then the other thing is

he said you know growing up he would walk down the street and there would just be dead people lying there dead people and he would see bombs flying in the background

his parents almost died from a bomb attack he lived in the Hague as a young man a young boy we're talking when he was like

five uh next to a german military headquarters that was full of rockets so the allies were always trying to bomb that so they were like he lived like near more bombing yes sorry uh more bombing than even before but he said that that kind of desensitized him yes he refers to his childhood as like running around gleefully being like ha ha ha ha ha, you know, because he was a little kid like having an adventure. But he just understood from a very very young age the

full extent of the sort of evils and pain and suffering of humanity. That's what he thinks. That's what he was sort of saying was that he was seeing the worst happening around him are the two okay so I'm giving you

connoisseur context context context grew up in the Hague okay grew up during the war studied at Leiden University okay

1955 studied film no double major in math and physics interesting and he was like maybe gonna be

an engineer or something and instead he goes to the netherlands film academy and starts making movies in the early 60s interesting so there's some you know whatever he also and this movie deals with a lot is very interested in theology sure and it's sort of like one of the greatest living experts on jesus christves Jesus. But he's like obsessed with Jesus as a man and knows pretty much as much as anyone alive.

He's threatening to make a Jesus movie. I remember a bunch of years ago he did a screening at IFC where he screened he had his Jesus book coming out. He released a book about Jesus. He wrote a full book a non-fiction book about Jesus. About his findings.

About Jesus as a man and what he represented and all of that. Talk about a figure that's like the most romanticized figure. What is Verhoeven saying about him? He's saying he's like a politician and he is like a rebel and he's, you know, go on. What he's interested in is stripping Jesus from the mythology

and just dealing with who he was as a person existing in time with other people. And it he claims it's like essentially the way jesus behaved right according to historical record is what we would think of as a terrorist and verhoeven just thinks that like jesus was the most interesting human being who ever existed like that's his hot take but he he screened life of brian and then did this whole like academic talk afterwards which is apparently amazing yeah uh and and he's never made his jesus film and i did this whole like academic talk afterwards which is apparently amazing. Yeah. And he's never made his Jesus film and I

kind of feel like if he made his Jesus film it would sort of be disappointing. Right. Like it's kind of interesting to see how he peppers it into all

his other films. Like this movie. Yes. And Robocop which is American Jesus but we'll get to that next week. Also Superman Returns. Just want to put that

out there. Okay. What? Okay. Anyway. Netherlands Film Academy. just want to put that out there okay what okay uh anyway netherlands film academy uh the yes well anyway the surface temperature on europa is minus 260 degrees computer i was reading that off the computer i also want to say that i read off i don't know if you guys ever do this but sometimes i go on to itunes and i go to like our podcast page and i sort by popularity okay because i'm curious to see like at any given moment what the five most popular episodes are and our five least popular episodes are okay because like the first phantom episode is always in our top five which is kind of cool that people are like always going back to the

show right yeah and it's usually what a terrible episode though one of our worst one of the worst yeah one of the worst if not the object we spent like 10 minutes at the start being like so we're not gonna talk about the original movies here's what we're gonna do it's gonna be like a bit okay yeah okay are you guys ready for a bit okay and now we're in no bits podcast no bits pro smits yeah um but uh i always look at the top five and the bottom five to see like aside from the most recent episodes which ones like really sink or swim.

I think pretty consistently our episode on the two Cameron documentaries is our number one least listened to episode ever. And that's where the Europa bit comes from.

And we are committing so hard to repeating a bit that just in terms of mathematics. It's doing great. The smallest number. Is it doing well right now? it's like the sixth least popular least popular is denim invasion right i'm sorry denim invasion is the only one bound is down there which is too bad good movie praying with anger is down there yeah uh the revenge of the sith live episode that one's

down there that's just a lot of episode uh the loveless. You know, a lot of the obvious ones. I think Den of Invasion is actually always our lowest. That's a... I mean, don't listen to that episode. Deep cut. No, listen to it. That's great. George Lucas is on it. That's great.

The real George Lucas. I got this tattoo. It's cool. It's really good. I don't get the Europa tattoo. Yeah, but then he's got on the other hand, he's got a tattoo of a pair of cap jeans. Right now, our Minority report episode with joe roe is uh high up there well let's not just fucking talk about which episodes of ours are doing well got 362 reviews damn maybe we'll read

a review maybe we'll read a review old time's sake yeah okay remember when we used to like read reviews on the show yeah remember when we were still a podcast what are we now i don't know chaos okay all right so yeah he starts making the movies he marries a nice lady who he's been married to his whole life martin maybe she's a mean lady what do i know martin tour who's a lady of indiscriminate disposition yeah he's been married to her for 50 years in 2017. This year was their 50th anniversary. Pretty incredible. Pretty impressive. He had two kids with her, two daughters,

Claudia and Helen. Must be like 45. Yeah, and totally not warped at all. Look, they're Dutch. It's a different place. Hey, they're not warped. They're twisted. Twisted. Alright, he was in the dutch navy uh for a couple years and he made a uh documentary about the dutch navy which won

an award for military films and then he makes a millie yeah yeah millie bobby brown uh he makes business is business which is some thank you feature some tiny little movie that i've never seen i assume it's in your little box set uh it is i believe that some weird like movie about prostitutes i believe that film is about sex workers uh i think a lot i know nothing about those early verhoeven movies they're tricky because they all have multiple titles yeah yeah yeah sure i think business and business also has a different title that's like a proper first name. But I never know if I'm confusing them

because of that. I think you might be confusing. But anyway, it doesn't matter. It's like five films that have ten titles between them. Anyway, whatever. In 73, he makes Turkish Delight,

which stars a young Rutger Hauer, who is his constant collaborator in the Dutch movies, and not since. Yes, which I want to talk about. We'll get to that, though. Yeah, we can get to that later. Yeah.

So Turkish Delight, which is this like passionate romance about like young liberal kind of radical kids in love. Very sexually explicit. Huge hit. Gets an Oscar nomination. It's like a sexual revolution comedy, right? Yes. And he makes this movie called KT Tipel, which I think is a period piece.

Okay. Starring the same pair rucker hauer and the actress is called malik van der ven okay and then he makes soldier of orange which is super violent it's a movie about the um dutch resistance to the nazis starring rucker hauer and jeroen krabe who's uh also somebody who works with a lot there are five straight record movies right yeah that gets like a Golden Globe nomination and like a LAFCA award, I think. He's getting attention in America for all

these movies. Then he makes Spedders, which is the movie that even the Dutch government was like, Paul, you have gone too far. He has a lot of explicit gay sex along with a lot of explicit straight sex. It's kind of his loveless because it's about like aimless biker people you

know uh-huh uh i have i have seen that movie that movie is um i googled like spedder streaming and i was directed to porn hub cool that movie is in full available on porn hub if you just want to watch it on porn hub just that was you know like a tip yep um yeah i mean he pornhub was like let's not even clip it just put it on well people will have fun with it the whole movie being desensitized to stuff you know growing up in extreme circumstances uh he also always says he's like people say my my violence and my sex is explicit it's not true i'm the only one who shows sex and violence the way it actually is sure that's like no one has ever had sex the way people have sex in a Paul Verhoeven movie. But I also think there is something to the fact that he gets to like these impressionistic levels of like violence doesn't look in real life the way it does in Verhoeven movies.

But violence feels the way Paul Verhoeven violence looks in terms of how upsetting it is. It's very. I was wrong. I'm sorry. He also made The Fourth Man that was his last Dutch movie. But you know what I'm saying, like he makes these

very visceral, when he has violent scenes, when he has sexual scenes, they're very visceral and they're very protracted. Often. Right,

and I think he's getting to something greater that I don't know if it's a conscious thing of like, I need to heighten it so that it connects to people or if in his mind

that's how he perceives reality. Which by his own admission that's kind of what it is. I think it's a little bit of that. Right. But isn't that true of a lot of directors where they have a unique

perspective on something. Mm-hmm. And that's what makes them special but also super weird. Yep. Mm-hmm. And this guy is super weird. He's weird.

Yeah. So after he essentially is now at this point in the mid-80s having trouble getting the Dutch government guy is super weird. He's weird. He essentially is now at this point in the mid 80s having trouble getting the Dutch government to subsidize his movies because they are so controversial. And he said he was getting really frustrated with that and feeling more and more pressure for them in terms of what they wanted him to do.

And so this movie is the bridge where he goes like, can I get money from other places? Can I start to piece it together? Orion Pictures. But this isn't fully like a Hollywood movie. No, but they gave him most of the money. They gave him most of the money. He has a lot of Italian money. These 80s movies

always, there's a lot like Piranha 2 where it's like, it's some Italian guy who is like, yeah, my wife's got to be in it though or whatever, you know. But this movie is a Dutch-American-Italian co-production with money pieced together. They had Orion. i'm seeing spanish not italian but oh maybe i'm getting that i think that's it okay um american dutch spanish film i felt like there was some italian in there look don't don't let's not stereotype um um when orion comes aboard though

yes he he writes a movie yeah i think he wrote it, he wrote it with a guy called Gerard Soterman. And he had done a TV series. Who had written a lot of movies with him and wrote black books with him much later. He did a TV series with Ricker Howard that was a medieval show. Yes, he did. So they had worked in this. That was where he discovered him. Patina, if you will.

Floris. And he said that this was kind of like some ideas they had left over from the show. Right. But that was a essentially more conventional show exactly where they're like let's not varnish right life in the 15th century or whatever which is where i think this movie shares a similarity with the loveless uh-huh sure it's like let's take this sort of like set of aesthetics and this sort of culture in this like film genre that has become really romantic and engage with how gross this really was. Because from the opening of this movie, you're like, this is fucking disgusting.

Yeah. In every sense of that word. But yeah, he puts it together. Orion has the most money, so they are able to sort of throw down the most creative control and notes but he's getting it from all sides on this movie i mean everyone's coming to him saying can you make it

a little more like this a little less than this and he speaks to this movie with great frustration yes he doesn't like this movie he said he did not want the jennifer jason lee character in it at all orion demanded there be a female character which is the first of many examples yes that we will cover in which a hollywood studio comes to paul verhoeven and says can you do this for us and he's like yes yes i think i have an idea and they should have asked more questions right do you want to make an invisible man movie hmm yes just give me the money first uh yes you have the money the. Yes, you have the money? The budget right here? No, I got the money.

It's too late. And so... But it's crazy to me. Originally, this movie was going to be about these two men... He just wanted to be... Who were kind of like at war with each other. You know, the Rucker Hauer as the raider, you know, the sort of pillager. Martin.

And Jack Thompson as Harkwoodwood who's the i mean no harkwood's the other guy harkwood's the his like uh this is what i'm getting at oh right that was going to be the conflict yes um and then they demand a love interest yeah so he decides to turn steven the sort of good boy into like the part of like a love triangle, a Paul Verhoeven love triangle. Right. Which I'll say, I think if the Jennifer Jason Leigh character was not in this movie, this movie would be incredibly boring. I think if it was the film that he thought he wanted to make that was just a rivalry between two men. Yeah.

I think aside from the sort of aesthetics and how he was depicting this world it would be painfully generic well he says let me find the exact quote in retrospect we should have stuck with Hawkwood and Martin the failure of Flesh and Blood was a lesson to me never compromise the main storyline of a script says the man who made Showgirls

but that's the thing love it or hate it all the movies from here on out I think you look at them and you go yup every single frame of this movie is what Paul Verhoeven wanted sure you know

we'll talk about it but I think those movies truly do like fit into that I think this is the one where it's very much a Paul Verhoeven movie I wasn't sure

if this was gonna feel like a Piranha 2 where it's like a guy testing it out before he figures out how to gain control in Hollywood it's through and through like of a piece with his filmography i don't know if this movie

would be of any interest if you were watching it in a bubble without any sense of who this guy was and what he'd go on to do in his thing it would be of some interest it's well made it's well made but it's also it's unusual but viewing it like as part of his filmography it's fascinating it is uh he wanted to make a movie that was, quote, stinking. Yeah. Mission accomplished, Pauly. He wanted to depict how gross, like literally gross, poopy, one might say, medieval times were.

Yeah. Not medieval times of restaurant. Although I heard that's his next film. Yes, medieval times. He's doing a sordid expose of medieval times. He also wanted Rucker Hauer's character to be very morally ambiguous and villainous. And Rucker Hauer, apparently, who's coming off of making Blade Runner, is like, I want to play a hero. So that's weird.

So I want to talk about this for a little bit. So I think that might be informing Rucker Hauer's performance in this movie. I think so too. But I want to talk about this for a little bit because I think there are a couple interesting phenomenons that are represented by that. Okay? One is this thing I always... Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Probably still present, right? I don't know. Hopefully not.

Okay. This thing I always find fascinating. David is tickling Ben. Ben is not amused Ben's eyes are closed He is awake but he doesn't want to look at us He is sitting at the board With his hands on his chest picking his nails

Now his hand is rubbing His forehead He had to listen to us talk for an hour or two Before we even fucking started recording Alright keep going This thing that I find interesting, which is when a foreign auteur

who is starting to gain some reputation, some renown, maybe some foreign language nominations, maybe some good critical notices, and their leading man or leading lady

both carry over to Hollywood uh huh you know yeah like I think Hauer and Verhoeven

both like those movies were so big for both of them sure yeah Rucker Hauer and Verhoeven they were like a pair

but right very different Hollywood careers sure but I think in a similar way to like

Von Trier and Skarsgård I think in a similar way perhaps to fuck there was another examplearsgård i think in a similar way perhaps to uh fuck there was another example he's never made a hollywood movie though nor will he ever make hollywood movie but but but sort of got onto the bigger stage and what often happens is the filmmaker continues making their own weird esoteric movies and this star who they used to work with all the time now becomes like a more commercial Hollywood person.

Alma Dovar and Banderas. Yeah. I'm not saying they necessarily fall into the Hollywood system, but that they both get big. I always find that very fascinating when it's an actor and director who work together that much. But often what happens is when they both get big, they never work together ever again. Right? I guess so. Do you know why they didn't work together again?

Apparently because they he they fought on this movie howard was so pissed off that verhoeven wouldn't let him be like a fucking matinee idol hero because he was afraid of being typecast after blade runner as and also a foreign baddie well right when you are a i mean he's dutch but you know germanic villain a teutonic looking guy but that's also who's played a villain or two you're worried that i'm gonna be a villain for hollywood that's it but also most foreign actors who become big in the states do so playing villains sure maybe it's a tradition that goes back to like fucking peter lorry you know yeah like i i think that's a thing that's the joke when like some great foreign actor

gets on it for an oscar and that's like great now he's just going to play fucking Bond villains. You know? Yeah. Well I mean Crystal Falls. Right. And so I think Hauer was very afraid of that wanted to fight that. So he fought on the movie. Right. Then he goes on to make like the fucking Hitcher and shit. You know? Well this is the thing I mean Hauer's career is nothing. I mean he makes like the Hitcher

and Ladyhawk and then it's like he's a nobody. I mean not a nobody but he's But he mostly is a Hollywood villain. I agree. I just think it's like right he's a nobody but he's not a nobody but yeah but he mostly is i know i agree i just think it's interesting not not to like fucking poke a a bee's nest here you know a hornet's nest if you will a beehive what are you talking about but in this industry where like people are fucking morally reprehensible but you continue working with them there are like all these like artistic partnership splits that happened just based off of ego

where it's like apparently the reason that like Murray and Ramis didn't talk for like fucking 15 years is that Murray was like I want Groundhog Day to be more dramatic and Ramis was like I want to be more comedic and then they didn't talk for a decade and a half we've talked about this on the podcast

the movie was perfect and I think there was a similar thing with— I think the other thing that happened there was that Ramos is a really nice guy, or was a really nice guy. Bill Murray is an awful person. Very difficult. Yes. But like Hauer and Verhoeven, they just had this disagreement, you know?

Maybe— Whereas like Kinski and fucking Herzog were able to like bottle that tension. Yeah, they're an extreme example. Yes. I mean, yeah. Because Kinski like tried to murder her all the time. That Hauer like still won't fucking work with Verhoeven because it's like,

well, he didn't let me be a hero. Well, do you think that's going on now? I don't know. I mean, Rutger Hauer is having a bit of a second life right now. I feel like maybe not though.

He's an excellent actor. He's a fantastic actor. Yeah. I love him in this. i love him in the other verhoeven movies i've seen i love him in blade runner so much i think that's like an all-time great performance about his greatest performance of all time earl and batman begins he's so good in earl and batman begins where he did he wrote a memo but then doesn't get the later memo yes but i mean and he did his due diligence he asked people if

they got the memo anyway um but it's like it's not like i'm gonna tell you like i'm looking at his recent where i'm like oh yeah he's great in the scorpion king 4 quest for power okay no he is good in that stop being a dick he's good in that uh lou ferigno's in that movie yeah lou ferigno's in all this you know i feel like some of these actors might not be egyptian though barry bostwick michael bean emmet walsh this is the craziest cast list i've ever seen barry bostwick is the waspiest actor of all time barry bostwick is it the scorpion king floor is the king of egypt or a king there seem to be two kings because rucker howard's also placing playing a king do you think he was like i have to be a king there seem to be two kings because Rucker Howard's also placing playing a king do you think he was like I have to be a king and they were like no one's gonna check anyway

yeah you're king there's two kings it's like the first scorpion king is like okay they didn't cast Egyptian actors but like kings because there's the scorpion king I forgot about him he's a fucking king right but the scorpion king okay Samoan actor right Kelly who is the female lead she's Hawaiian Michael Clark Duncan is African-American like at least you're not casting white people by the time you get to Scorpion King 4 and it's like the mayor from Spin City is playing the Pharaoh to be fair I don't think he plays the Scorpion no but what does he play what does he play the tarantula king what if they were like really running low with them the ladybug king

by the way our next miniseries at the scorpion king franchise he's playing king yannick yeah you got scorpion king 3 which has billy zane and ron perlman you want you want to know an anecdote i love i don't know if it's two or three is one of them called rise to power uh that is number two is called rise of a warrior okay that's the one I'm thinking of. Which has, oh boy, I think it has Kurt Angle in it, the wrestler. Batista's in one of them too. Is he? I think Rise of a Warrior carries a title that no other film carries. No, it's Randy Couture.

Okay, I believe Batista's in one of them. Uh-huh. Yes, he's in three. Thank you. Battle for Redemption. Thank you. And that film that film of course was directed by roland joffey um uh scorpion king 2 rise of a warrior i believe is the only film in history that is a prequel to a spinoff of a sequel of a remake let me track that one more time so you're saying the scorpion 2 is a

prequel to scorpion king 1 right it's a prequel documenting the rise of the scorpion king seen in the first scorpion king which is a spin-off of the mummy returns which is a sequel to the mummy which is a remake of the mummy but let's be clear the scorpion king is a prequel to the mummy which is a remake of the mummy but let's be clear the scorpion king is a prequel to the mummy returns and the mummy i guess because it's set in ancient egypt okay so pick your poison you can either say it's a prequel to a prequel right but it's a it's a sidequel kind of it's a prequel to a spinoff is fine that was then sequelized right uh right so I guess that's more interesting. Scorpion King 3 is a sequel to a prequel to a sequel to a remake. Oh, boy. So this is their episode about flesh and blood. It's a 1985 movie that was made with weird money and was barely released.

It cost $6.5 million. Yeah. It was supposedly released on august 30th 1985 in new york and los angeles box office mojo has no data of it making any money okay but i mean so it did get a release yes it must have just been so small it was never released wide yeah and very quickly it was put on hbo which at the time was tied to orion in some way so like movies would get to HBO faster. And I think it built a bit of a reputation there. Yes, it became like a somewhat well-known cult movie. Like you imagine if you were 12 years old

and this came on HBO at like 10 o'clock at night, you would be fucking fascinated. You'd be like, what the fuck is this? Sure, it's right. Which is how like a lot of these movies built reputations. It has this poster that looks like, you know like the poster for Willow or Legend or whatever. Exactly. Where it's like this sort of nice painted poster.

Here, I'll show you. And that's also what I love about now that we'll finally start talking about the movie at minute 565. But the opening credits of this film, this movie has this amazing Basil Poliodora score. It does. Great score. And the score sounds like it could fit on fucking Robin Hood Prince of Thieves. Yeah. movie has this amazing this one's even better basil polio door score it does great score and the score sounds like it could fit on fucking robin hood prince of thieves yeah like it's a conventionally heroic uplifting like medieval swords epic score that's like thrilling yeah

and then it goes straight from those credits to like fucking depravity like now we're in a bosh painting well yeah because it's just, they're on like some fucking hill outside of a castle. It looks like it smells like a wall. It's a poopy movie. Let's be clear. Everyone is pooping. Just taking a poop. Right.

All the time. The movie that this is, like you said, it's the Bosch guy. The movie that this is aesthetically most similar to weirdly is a Monty Python, the Holy Grail. Yes. But also because it has that kind of look where it's raining and they went to some historic place.

Right. Yes. And then they were just like, let's just throw sand around. But Terry Gilliam always talks about how he wanted Holy Grail to be the only comedy that looked like a Pasolini movie. He wanted it to be disgusting and look like it smelled bad. And it also was like a cheap movie. So it has that like grimy, like low stock. And it and it's like yeah it just looks like it was miserable to film but the movie starts it's like people shitting themselves and like fucking stabbing each other and then a

pregnant prostitute comes out serving beer to them and it's like the most maximalist nine months pregnant too yeah it's the most maximalist first 20 seconds of a film I have ever seen. But it's also done in this very like elegant, like swooping, like tracking shot. Like you compare this

to the opening of Lincoln, which is like, here are these men in the mud and you see them stomping each other into these quick cuts and it's very jarring. I love how we're only

comparing movies to movies we have covered on this podcast. Hey, we're trying to create a VCU. This movie's a lot like The Loveless and Lincoln. VCU, blank check universe. Oh wow, Lincoln. VCU, blank check, universe.

Oh, wow, okay. Susan Tyrell plays the woman serving the beer, the nine months pregnant, serving the beer, an amazing character actress. She's amazing in this movie. She's got a lot of screen time in this movie. Yes.

Have you ever seen Fat City? No, no. She was Oscar nominated for Fat City. She was. John Huston's last film, I believe. No, because didn't he make Annie? Was that? Oh, you're right.

You're right. That was after. And he made The Dead. So it wasn't his last film. No. I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about. No, he made many more movies. Right.

He made one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. We don't need it. Eleven more movies. Okay, so I'm a piece of shit. But yeah, he did. He made Annie. He made Under the Volcano he made Prissy's Honor

he made The Dead you know yeah made some big movies Fat City's really interesting because he was a very classical old Hollywood guy and this was him making a new Hollywood movie

and Susan Terrell is fucking amazing in it playing like the modern day version of this character yeah like a barfly yeah

and had no idea she was in this is awesome but like from the get go you're seeing these people who are just like Like a barfly. And I had no idea she was in this. It's awesome. But from the get-go, you're seeing these people who are just like... People are dying, people are succeeding, and everyone's just having a fucking fun time. It's rolling off their back. It's just like, this is the awful time we live in. And if you can survive, history is written by the victors.

Yeah, a little bit. Right, exactly. What's happening in the opening scene is victors. Yeah, a little bit. Right, exactly. Right. What's happening in the opening scene is that- This is also a very class-obsessed movie. What's happening in the opening scene is that a bunch of raiders, I mean, what are they? They're mercenaries. Marauders.

Mercenaries. Led by Rucker Hauer and- Including Bruno Kirby. His name came up. I was like, are you kidding me? He's in the movie! He jumped straight out of a time machine anyway they are laying siege to a castle

yes that some lord what's the lord's name Arnolfini yeah this guy Fernando Hilbeck yeah

is like I left and they occupied my city go take it and then you can like have 24 hours just pillaging the city before I kick you out. The terms of his deal are essentially like that old Toys R Us contest

where they give you 10 minutes on the clock and you get to go through with it. It's a supermarket sweep. Yes, exactly. Yeah, but look at the Toys R Us game. You are a Toys R Us kid. So he's like, all you got to do is enter a bunch of times and if you take down my enemy, get the city back for me.

24 hours, I'll look the other way, I'll cover my eyes, and you just take whatever you want. Right. Instead— And these guys are hedonists. They just want to fucking just steal. Yes. But so Harkwood, who's Jack Thompson, who's sort of the leader,

he's against Rucker Hauer, though, who's like his former buddy. Yes. Because I think he doesn't really approve of Rutger Hauer's methods. This guy has a method to his madness. Rutger Hauer's just chaos. Yeah, and so Harcwood also is obsessed with this nun who's like only in the first part of the movie and kind of gets forgotten later.

Like who's having these weird seizures. Yes. The opening of this movie is really chaotic and everyone keeps on writing her off it's like she's crazy don't deal with her he's like I can help her she does seem to be a neurodiverse woman

in a time without proper mental health of course but he cares for her as a human being he also slashed her head open I think that's sort of it's an issue he feels bad about that Ben's not happy about this movie He also slashed her head open. I think that sort of has something to do with that. He feels bad about that. Yes.

Ben's not happy about this movie at all. No, it was upsetting. Yes, it's an upsetting movie. It was very upsetting. But I think, not to make this argument, I think that's kind of the point. And I think this is a movie where there are no conventional pleasures, right? This is a movie where there are no conventional pleasures, right?

This movie is just about digging into the morass of this shit, this time, these people, these souls, right? And then from this film on, he figures out how to take everything he's interested in and put it into the body of a conventionally entertaining Hollywood movie, which is what makes this film so interesting, the tension between the two. But this movie has no characters to root for. You know? Yeah. The stakes of the movie are very odd and oblique because at a certain point it just becomes, let's just fucking do whatever we want and let's just try to defend our right

to do whatever we want. Yeah. You don't really want to see anyone succeed or fail, you know? Like this movie is just like, like well it's like the fucking Texas Chainsaw Massacre or something sure you're kind of rooting for someone in that one though Ben it's like a biker gang

what did you text me BCU only reference films we've talked about Ben you texted me we texted the two of us I got so mad I'm like who am I supposed to root for who's the hero in this right nobody and that was the big complaint against you're rooting for the plague that's who you're rooting for in this movie and i kill everyone yeah yes but that's even steven's little

shit fuck that guy this even sucks like i also just love that like when that's paul verhoeven being like these chivalrous people were like you know it's all bullshit right like he's mad about this fucking sjw god damn it no but i do love that like when this movie came out and critics were just like what the fuck is this uh-huh who are we supposed to root for this movie has no heroes that guy who played steven must have been like i mean my character doesn't like my character right doesn't actively murder people for no reason. Sexually assault women. They're like, yeah, but you suck. Yeah, but you're annoying. I think a reason why I was bummed out too is I kind of think everything's bullshit.

And this was confronting you with that a little bit. Yeah, I'm like, oh, fuck. It's very nihilistic. Yeah, I'm like, man, I have to be more fun. I have to start being nicer to people. Wow, so 2018, you're a fun Ben. You're going to try to be more fun. Fun Ben.

You're the fun, fun Ben. My friend Pat decided one year that he wanted to start cooking more. Pat who listens to the show, shout out to Pat May. And he dubbed that year, that was his New Year's resolution, that he wanted to start cooking meals so he could save money and eat better. And he dubbed it the year of the chef. Great. Which I never stopped laughing at because it's so self-aggrandizing.

I'm just not like, oh, it's not just I'm going to cook this year. I'm going to be a chef. You're the chef. Shout out to Pat May. Thank you, Pat May. So they pillaged the town. Pat May? Pat May. Pat May. Pat May. Pat May-zing. pat me thank you pat me um so they pillaged the town pat me pat me pat me pat me pat me

um pat me nabiri you ever figure out which one she was um which one is she again pat me what do you mean is she nabiri or amidala oh nabiri is the fake one i think amidala is the real one yeah anyway they they pillage the town and immediately the lord's like no 24 hours you crazy get the fuck out of here i want all this shit they're like oh but you promised he was like yeah i promised before i was in my castle now i'm in my castle right you guys got nothing what's this around us my castle right yeah my castle my rules rule one go away so it's a group of like eight mercenaries and eight prostitutes who all hang out together.

Yes, and almost immediately upon being kicked out, Susan Tyrell's character, Celine, gives birth to a dead baby. She's been there pregnant, hanging out these beers. And you realize quickly that it is Rutger Hauer's baby, presumably.

There's this running joke for a little bit. Who knows whose baby it is. But they seem to be somewhat together as much as any two people can be together in this amorphous puddle of sexuality. Right. This isn't really a monogamy situation here. But they kind of got a thing. She gives birth. It is stillborn.

They treat this like water rolling off their back because their lives suck so much a little sad but actually yeah the woman who delivers it is nice where she's just sort of like i mean it's cold right now but then even she goes like who did he look like and rucker howard's like he looked like me and she's sort of smart like it's like we got to find the lemonade in this lemon almost immediately because our life is just going to suck. Yeah. So they're at rock bottom, this group. Yeah.

Not a group you're rooting for to get out of rock bottom. Right. But they're not doing well. And he decides he's going to bury his stillborn son. And in digging, he finds a statue. Of Saint Martin. His patron saint. Yes.

A man, a saint with a sword, which unusual yes uh saint martin of tour because he cut off the hands of thieves uh yes venerated as a military saint and they go this is a sign yeah we're the good thieves right the things we were gonna stole were stolen from us by the guy who told us originally we had free reign to steal them right and there is a cardinal although i don't think he's a real cardinal because cardinals tend to be like you know important people sure 15th century but there's a religious man with them who is insane yes this movie uh hates organized religion ronald lacy's character who is oh, yes, Martin will be our new leader. Fucking charlatan. And they literally, like, the statue has, like, a pointing finger,

and they're like, let's just go wherever it's pointing. Yes. Like, wherever it's pointing is relative to where we place it. So then cut to the Lord's son, Stephen, played by Tom Berlinson. Who is this guy? I don't know. I looked at the poster.

He's Australian. The poster with its, like, i was like is that tom berenger and then the movie started and i saw the name come up and i was like did they just misspell tom berenger it's not tom berenger i know and the poster kind of looks at tom berenger weirdly yeah he's not a real guy i mean he he's just he's an australian actor Yeah. And he's the number one fuckboy. He's betrothed to Agnes. Yes. Jennifer Jason Leigh. Right. Who's a young, still, like, ingenue, right?

I mean, Fast Times at Richmond High is 82? Yeah. What else? Like, this is a weird choice for her to make at this point in her career. Easy money. Yeah, she had not made a lot of movies yet. Yeah. This is very early for her.

Grand View USA, right. But she's kind of the only big American actor in this film. Yeah. Her and Bruno Kirby. Jack Thompson's, well, he's not American, but he's a fairly at that point, well-known actor. I noticed I said American. Yeah, you're right. But he'd been in

Breaker Morant, and so people had heard of him, I think. But, but, but, I said American. Made in the USA, baby usa baby so he's right uh his dad who's this this the lord this fuckhead lord right arnold feeney says great news your wife's coming she's gonna be here in like 15 minutes yeah and so we have some stuff with her wife and he's like what the fuck are you talking about and he's like i made a deal she's coming here i've been writing letters on your behalf no big deal she's a virgin and the kid's like get the fuck out this is gross shut up dad then we cut to her in her carriage right

yeah and who's her handmaiden bart simpson yeah do you know this you know that she's got the kind of randy handmaiden who's like oh that's uh nancy cartwright who voices bart simpson one of her rare live action yeah film roles weird it's all weird that's a bummer too because her character sucks she's not the best but what about the part where she does the barman i like that part i mean that at least like made it a little bit more palpable remember that part there's that weird anachronistic part where they just cut to the field and she's there doing the bart man popping butterfinger feet they cut between that and like when uh the young queen is watching her fuck yeah and she goes never lay a finger on my butterfinger not only does she watch she comes and interrupts them having sex in the

field and their reaction is like i don't know it was fun though so she spanks her to be with a stick spanks her in a fun way Bart Simpson's horny Jennifer Jason Lee is like I'm about to go be married to this guy he's gonna want to have sex what's it like and she's asking her questions and she seems like really

kind of fascinated and excited by this and she sees the maid flirting with this knight and it's like go fuck him. And Bart Simpson's like, don't have a cow, man. What are you talking about, right? This is our worst episode. And she's like, go behind those bushes. Fuck him now.

And Bart Simpson's like, Milhouse. I'm so mad at you. We haven't even gotten to the most important parts of the movie yet shut up and Jeffrey St. Lee's like I command you okay I'll fire you if you don't do it sort of like uh Monty Burke yes uh yeah she pulls a real

burn so she smithers her pretty hard and forces her to go behind this bush and fuck this guy and after like 15 seconds comes out with a branch and like hits his butt a lot and then like runs away with Bart Simpson laughing.

It's weird. She's got a weird sexuality, this character. And then she meets with Steven and they eat a mandrake. And both of them are kind of like, look, I'm not happy about this either. Like Steven kind of really resents her.

But then they eat the mandrake which is supposed to like bond them. Right. They eat a mandrake underneath two hanging corpses. Yep. They're real corpsey too. These aren't just like dead bodies.

And he's not shooting around them. And he mentions that when a man is hung. They come in their pants. And that means something. Sure. It means that their seed spills and creates mandrakes. That means something. Legend.

Mandrakes at the time were these, if you eat a mandrake, the root has hallucinogenic properties. Right, so she's like, let's eat some mandrakes. And they also look like a person, kind of. So you eat it and you'd be like, mandrake root, right. She's like, let's eat these mandrakes.

And he's like, come all over them. And this is the meat cute in a Verhoeven movie. It is. You're right. And this is the meet cute in a Verhoeven movie. It is. You're right. And then immediately she's kidnapped. I'm not being crass here. No, I understand.

But then immediately she's kidnapped by a bunch of marauders. Right. They're sharing a cum-drenched mandrake underneath two corpses. Oh my God. Uh-huh. And then she's kidnapped. Then she's kidnapped and then she is- Because this is the start of their reign of terror.

Rutger Hauer's like, we're going to fucking do what we want yeah here we go this fuck boy's son we're gonna get back at him let's take her yeah they take her as revengeance a revenge what the fuck am i talking about you should fucking trademark that revengeance i'm telling you could pitch revengeance to avi learner and get that made tomorrow starring nicholas and John Cusack and then comes what I would call the toughest and most upsetting scene of the film

which at first they're gonna gang rape her then Martin decides no I'm going to sort of claim her right you know

he sort of pulls rank I'm the leader among these sewer people. Ben is burying his head in his hands. It's a very, very tough scene. It was cut by Orion. Which Jennifer Jason Leigh complained about extensively.

Which Jennifer Jason Leigh was very upset about because she thinks it's the most crucial part of the movie. And her argument, which is, look, wherever you're going to land on Verhoeven, this is the argument to have. Her argument was it is more offensive to cut that scene down than to fully engage with that scene where the entire point is to make you uncomfortable uncomfortable is one way of putting it uh ben pointed out to me before we recorded how upsetting it was to watch the movie and also it comes kind

of comes up on you that's it's surprising it's somewhat surprising because even though we know they're very bad right it's very matter of fact uh i'll tell you the element of this scene that i find there is and there really is a sense of them essentially laying claim where they're like right she's our possession the element that is most disturbing in this scene is we forgot to mention there is a small boy who's part of their gang oh yeah god and he is just standing there beating a drum and cheering on yes yeah yeah that's right you're right like that's his fucking worldview yeah it's just this boy being like let martin have her but but then there's this very complicated

power shift yes where jennifer jason lee kind of takes control yes but i think because like this is a thing that i feel like there's other movies that do this too like straw dogs maybe it's sort of a classic example of a rape scene where then there's like a suggestion that the woman is enjoying it this is more than a suggestion no right and and i think verhoeven's i think verhoeven's suggestion is more that right she's almost trying to humiliate him that's what I think by robbing him of his power but nonetheless very upsetting scene right because something like

she sort of starts saying like yeah and they're like oh she's fucking you right something like Straw Dogs where you're seeing an assault and then he is sort of inferring that she's enjoying it is very different than something like this which is very much a performative like power play of her being like,

I want to have control of this situation. I want to humiliate you so you cannot take anything away from me. Yes. Which then casts this very complicated die for the rest of the movie, which is their central dynamic. Their dynamic is that, essentially, where it's like they are somewhat romantically involved in a weird way. He

basically does kind of make her his new woman right but uh much the implication throughout is that she yes uh is that she's sort of just trying to stay alive right you know like she's been kidnapped but she's trying to insinuate herself into his affections we have talked about in the past i know we talked about it like in uh the strange days episode yeah yeah uh in the strange days episode we talked about in the past I know we talked about it like in the Strange Days episode yeah in the Strange Days episode we talked about

the sexual assault scene in that movie right and how like she really makes you sit in it so it's not just some fucking

plot device as means for justification for another character's actions to go out and do something right and I think

this is a movie which like love, love it or hate it, is actually interested in the psychological aftermath of that type of situation. It doesn't just treat it as, like, and now revenge. You know what I'm saying? I do. And it's kind of similar to Elle in how it deals with all of that, with, like, the conflicting, shifting relationship between the two of them. Yeah.

And so they invade this castle. Yes. And they take the castle. And they're like, branding is king. With ease. We need to pick a color. Yes. We're red now.

Red now. But the reason they take this castle with ease is because everyone in it has the plague. Yes. So it's a bad castle on balance. Shit castle. Right. Saint Martin did point them to it. Right. But uh. Yeah but it was also like there's

the scene where they're in the caravan and they're like Saint Martin just moved we have to shift directions. It's like it's moved because it's in the back of a fucking rickety caravan. Of course it's gonna move. Everything's moving. But they keep on just deferring to this. There's also the scene. So at this point, what's his name?

Harkwood. Well, Harkwood has been recruited by. By Martin. By Martin. And by Martin. Not Martin. Stephen? Oh, yes. Yes.

Yes. Sorry. Yes. Yes. Because Harkwood's like, I'm out of the game. Yeah. Actually, that's the thing. Stephen is an asshole because he takes the nun.

Right. To sort of coerce Harcwood into taking down Martin. Harcwood's like, I'm retired. I said one last job. I'm out. Please let me be here with my wounded nun. Steven's a dickhead too. Steven sucks. Good point. Steven sucks.

It's cool when he gets electrocuted. That's an awesome scene. And Steven's like, if you don't fucking come with me, like, you know, and yes, strong arms uh through suffering yeah right uh emotional manipulation uh harcwood to joining him um and there's the scene where where they come face to face with what they believe to be the signs of the plague right yep and he goes to see a doctor and And Stephen, who is all college learned.

This is a good scene. Yes. As a college boy. Where the doctor's like, here's what you do. Bleed them dry. Right. And Stephen. That's what you do.

I'm a doctor. Stephen comes in. He's like, hey, look, I went to university. There's a, what is it? Ottoman or maybe Moorish or something. You know, like there's some like. He said Arabic. Arabic. The big Arabic trend now, you Is it Arabic? Arabic, yes.

The big Arabic trend now, you lance the boils. Yeah, exactly. Instead of just bleeding them dry. And the doctor's like, that's sacrilegious. I'm not doing any Arabic bullshit. Yeah, it's literally, he's just like, no, it's against Western religion. Right. To entertain some things.

And then even like, then Stephen leaves and Harkwood's like okay but seriously fucking lance me and he's like I'm not gonna do it it's not what Jesus wants you know

and this movie like the two devotely religious figures are fools in this film like a doctor who doesn't do his job properly

and a dude who listens to everything a statue says and then later in the movie kind of even has this moment

where he's like please prove to me that I'm listening to you and not just a man. Well, and then also when everyone starts getting the plague, he starts beating himself over the back with his belt. Right. Because he's like, maybe that'll solve this issue if I repent. Right.

Which I think is the whole Verhoeven Jesus thing is like he likes everything Jesus represented and hates everything that Jesus turned into. I guess so. I mean, there's also that incredible shot of later in the movie where he's got the burning wheel yes behind his head so he's got this kind of flaming halo martin yes to be clear and uh you know i mean that's it's very point draw your own connections uh yeah uh so so here's my problem with this movie the first half is all this stuff we're talking about yes and there's uh martin and his band of warriors then there's steven and him gathering his warriors yes and then it just turns into this movie where they're all in the castle alone getting the plague for like an hour yeah there's also a section where it kind of just becomes

animal house it's like yeah they're just kind of just becomes Animal House. It's like now they have the castle. Yeah, where they're just kind of right fucking with each other. There's the fork and knife scene. Yeah, they learn how to use forks and knives. And there's the bathtub scene. The bathtub scene which goes on and on. Very long time. Which is this sort of like quasi-seduction again

I guess. Right, but the idea is that this time it is kind of a romantic sex scene which we have not seen. Right, but also she's initiating it rather than him. Right, because she has the whole footsie scene. Where again, it seems like she's trying to

insinuate herself into safety by sort of controlling Martin. She has a very odd casting choice for this movie because she is so modern in this era. Yeah. controlling Martin. She has a very odd casting choice for this movie because she is so modern in this era. Yeah. You know, later she becomes better at sort of like

Atlantic City. Not Atlantic City. Yeah. No. What's the film I'm thinking of? Kansas City. Kansas City, not Atlantic City. And Hudsucker Proxy. She becomes better at being a period. Yes. And adopting different genres in that. But like in this movie, she kind of just feels like the Fast Times at Rismond High girl

transposed into this time period she's so young too she's so young how old would she have been she must be like 21 in this movie right looking it up

no she's 20 maybe 22 23 yeah born in 62 yeah okay but you know

and then there's like the thing where the dog drinks the plague blood and then the dog gives them plague. And there's like dog meat. A lot of business with like chunks of dog. Well, a shot that I think is pure Verhoeven, which is like. The big flank of dog landing on them. On the gun. Yeah.

Yeah. They got dog steaks flying. And they realize it's a plague dog. It's the boys dog Ben have you ever been this mad about a movie choice like when's the last time you were this like pissed off

the phantom fucking menace dog like all the way back there this is the worst since the 9th episode about the phantom menace and I like Verhoeven's movies but this is in the middle of the Weinstein mess. So it's just like- The morass of-

Also seeing this now is like kind of rough. What I've been referring to as a cultural kidney stone being passed, where it's like all of us trying to fucking excise this like awful toxicity that exists in our culture and within power structures and all of that. And this is a movie that's just about toxicity. But this movie,

I'm going to be a happy Benny moving forward. You're the fun. I'm going to have fun. Yeah, no, you're right. It's fun, Ben. So I'm going to have fun. Okay, we're going to have fun. See, I like this movie a lot.

I like this movie too. I don't think it's an enjoyable movie to watch, but I think it's pretty fascinating on an anthropological level. I do see, I like this movie more in the first half where I think it's more achieving what it wants to do. And then I just,

the second half just sort of, I struggle with it just because I don't think it gains much from then everyone dies of the plague uh i kind of do i kind of there's there's it's just by that point in the movie i want to see everyone wiped out oh no no that's not my complaint my complaint isn't that they're dying sure my complaint is just that it becomes kind of boring chaos where like it's just them fucking around for ages and then they all die of the plague like that. Well, and it also becomes this game of one-upsmanship

between Steven and Martin that's all about machismo and which one of them controls Jennifer Jason Leigh. And he's a real vacuum of a character. I don't give a shit about him. There is a great moment where he invents the fireman's ladder. Yes. Because earlier in the movie, he kind of invents the bomb. Yeah, he proposes rolling dynamite at the walls and blowing it up.

Right. He's like Flick from A Bug's Life, where he's coming up with these crazy inventions, and everyone's like, don't do it. Yeah, that's what he's like. He's like Flick from A Bug's Life. Yeah, this movie's kind of like A Bug's Life. But right, then there's the scene where they build a whole siege tower. Yes.

And then Rucker Hauer has the great idea of blowing it up. Right. it up right uh so that the score swells and they have these pretty impressive shots because you're just like that's a fucking impressive i mean that's the trick of this movie right is it's presenting it to you like you're watching freaking excalibur and at every moment you're like how did anyone give him the money to make this like didn't they read the fucking script but yes still the level of production value when there's no conventional heroics in the film. But that's the question with Verhoeven. Yes. Always.

It's just like, you're just like, how do you get the money for this? Yes. Because, I mean, the Starship Trooper story, we'll talk about it on that episode, but where he had this demo that was all VFX of a bug killing a cow. Yeah.

And then he just walks in front of the demo at the end of it and goes, please let me make this movie. And it's like, you know, so he was just like, see, looks nice. Crazy, right? You know. Well, here's the thing I'll say about Verhoeven, okay? He has his own skin. He has rollerblades.

He likes gold! He loves gold! Ben kind of likes that. Benny loves gold, remember? We can call him Gold Benber when we do our

Jay Roach miniseries we're never doing that Gold Benber Jay Roach did he direct The Love Guru no he didn't he didn't

he stayed away from that toxic waste film I know the first name of that person it was Jay Roach's first AD really he might have

might have wanted to take the helm on that one I think it's Marco something what I was going to say is Marco Schnabel one out of two ain't bad it might be Schnabel Schnabel

Julian Schnabel's brother is he? no the two things about Verhoeven are one he has always been such a kind of inarguable technical filmmaker, right? A, he was incredible with effects and pioneering effects once he gets into his Hollywood period.

And he pushed forward a lot, a lot of special effects technology, right? Yep. So that's a big thing. But also just in terms of his basic cinematic language, he is kind of this very bizarre classicist in terms of the language of his shots and his editing and his construction of sequences, which then he uses that very conventional filmmaking style for this very maximalist, extreme upsetting material. Right. Yeah. But he's not doing it in a schlocky way.

Like that's kind of the bizarre thing is when you watch this movie and it has these like big sweeping vistas. Yes. And then people like shitting against a shed. You know? This is not a movie that is trying to hide under the like, oh, we're just a B movie thing. Right. This is no basket. He takes everything equally seriously.

And he's not like a flash over substance guy. So there was always like a technical filmmaker there to go back to to give studios to give him money because it's like the guy knows

how to make a movie he's never going to hand us something that doesn't cut together sure you know well sure girls but yeah

that movie cuts together you can hate that movie that movie cuts together oh I love that movie but I don't know if it cuts together that's my complaint about that movie

it's his complaint about the movie we'll talk about it we'll get there we'll get there eventually as we'll talk about it. We'll get there. We'll get there eventually. As Han said to Giselle, we'll get there eventually. The other thing about Verhoeven

is this moment, this movie was the real sort of like reckoning moment for him where he said like, okay, I can't make

Dutch movies anymore. I tried to make this movie with a weird combination of financing, not really in the studio movie with a weird combination of financing. Not really in the studio system. Not really out of it. So this is where you think he's like,

you know what? I just got to be Hollywood. Right. Like that's where the money is. That's where the advantages of the movies I want to make are. And he has said when this movie came out

and the critics hate it and it barely got released, he went, you know what? I guess I don't know what a fucking American audience is want. Sure.

So he takes his wife and he moves to Hollywood. Right. He ingrains himself in American culture and starts studying popular American films. And this is the thing that I think defines him. It's the difference between like a Rich Little and a Bill Hader. Okay. So like Rich Little is someone who can just fucking learn the voice and impersonate someone you go like,

great, who gives a shit. Sure. I had no idea we'd be dragging Rich Little okay sure oh technical oppressionist yeah I get you I get you Bill Hader's a guy who's able to get the technical qualities of an impression but then turn a character into it use that as a device to get at some other

bit is James Carville looks and sounds like James Carville but he's not interested in just doing James Carville yeah I would say he turns into a Bill Hader is not that gifted an impressionist but he is a wonderful comedian and character actor so it doesn't matter

it's not because his impressions are never that precise I think they're pretty good but okay there are other examples like that but I'm with you

yes Dana Carvey's a similar kind of guy where it's like you learn the moves so that you can make something else out of it but Carvey was so like

he would always find like one thing that's just right that he's going to harp on. But I think. Tater's like, I mean, he's the best. Yes. I think Verhoeven kind of becomes this weird impressionist of American blockbuster films. Like he figures out all the technical aspects he needs to know. And it's like, if you're going to beat them, you have to know their own game. And if I can learn their language. I'm own game. And if I can learn their language.

I'm cutting you off. If I can learn their language. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I can smuggle all the things I actually want to say into these conventional looking movies. Yeah, you're right. I think you're right. Where's this movie? You're doing the thing where you've created whole arcs for Wolverine.

But he says that himself. Where? What do you mean? There's an interview on the fucking Wikipedia page. I'm going to show it to you at the end of this no no I believe where he said

I surrounded myself with American culture and wanted to figure it out and he said after he got the Robocop script he like watched fucking action movies and studied them

and said like I need to make something that looks like an American action movie he also grew up watching Hollywood movies and loved them like he was always

I think a little fascinated that's mentioned in the but he said after this he went I guess I don't know what Americans want. And I need to figure out what they want if I'm going to be able to make a movie. Yeah. Well, this is not a Hollywood movie. Exactly. And conclusively, this movie has no

surface pleasures for anybody. Right. Whereas in Robocop, in Total Recall, in Basic Instinct, even, like, right, he's, you know, these are movies with more of an arc for a character. Yes. Maybe a happier ending, more of an arc for a character. Yes. Maybe a happier ending, at least a sort of a resolution. They're what I've called before movies where he gets to have his cake and eat it too.

They get to function both ways. They're dissections and sort of postmodern, like, deconstructions of these tropes, but also for an idiot, they work as, like, oh, it's cool, it's a robot cop, he shoots people. Yeah, but I mean, and then Starship Troopers is sort of the most extreme version of it where they're like we won yeah and you know even hollywood like even people in america like this is very over the top i don't know how i'm supposed to feel about this but he was able to make it within the system because he was able to make movies that looked and moved and sounded like until he wasn't able to make it within the system anymore right right he did he cashed one too many checks maybe i don't know i don't know because it's not like he ever this is his biggest failure this movie yeah you know it's like it's not like he crashes because holloman even was like reasonably successful cost too much money but was

like a hit it was a hit yeah yeah but so at the end of this movie there's this this sort of moment where Steven throws the one remaining piece of his beloved dog

into the water well for the castle yes and he says poisons them at the source he says to Jennifer Jason Lee

this is your moment who are you with you get to choose powers in your hands and she sits there and watches everyone drink the water, including this young boy, lets them all get the plague. But then when Martin's going to drink, she knocks it out of his hand. Yes, because she's got these conflicted feelings for Martin.

But then almost immediately, vomiting boils. Everyone realizes what's happened they find the dog it happens too fast for me yeah really fast I just don't like it

yeah it's they push it along it's goofy it's sort of zombie-ish and like what I kind of like about the movie is it's very mundane before then

but then even he goes back to these weird moments like when they find the boils on the kid and they realize the kid has the plague and they all have to like turn on this woman and they realize the kid has the plague and they

all have to like turn on this woman and be like you can't have your son here right like it's us or him yeah um but the movie becomes like the total like destruction of this society that they built yeah they're all and steven and martin shitty dumb fake castle right fighting for the hand of this woman that neither of them actually care about. Steve and Martin, I just put that together. Oh yeah, this movie's about Steve Martin. No, Martin tries to kill Jennifer Jason Leigh by smothering her. Right, and he says sort of like,

you only love me when it's convenient for me. Right, and he's figured out that she knew about the plague. And then, how does she, I guess Steven shows up they have a fight Martin overpowers him and like chains him up

or is that earlier yes and then Steven's trapped they're both trapped yes right because Martin gets shoved down a well oh right they shove him down a well right and then she lets it happen but then

when he comes back she's like oh honey so happy to see you and he's like i was just down a fucking plague well yeah it's a shitty well yeah uh but there is that scene where martin gets struck by lightning i see even get struck by lightning i think it's really cool yeah and the scene where steve martin gets struck by lightning and comes up with the idea for Wild and Crazy Guy, his first album. That's in the movie. Yeah. I just feel like our energy is gone. This is the top movie to talk about. Passed by all the violence, yeah.

Yeah. The crucial thing, because this is what I was saying about RoboCop, that movie has an ending. This movie's ending is, Steven rescues Agnes. Right. Yay!

He burns everything down. Let's Martin get away. But she sees Martin getting away. With some spoils of war. And she sort of just doesn't say anything about it. Yeah. He probably is the plague. Yup, it's a movie about bad people. Anyway. They're probably all gonna die.

Right. Life in 1501 was shit. Yeah. And this movie comes out and people go, fuck you. It was a shit life. Why did you make us watch this movie comes out and people go fuck you it was a shit life why did you even go fuck you it's just like it comes out on some limited screens and the studio is like yeah we're not gonna release this wide yeah and that's that it's like i don't think it even had a chance to be hated i think it got okay reviews but the ones i read were not very positive and people were like what the fuck is this because as you said they were comparing it to like the other like medieval epics at the time they were

like what the fuck who what are we supposed to be taken out of this uh and uh but he's got his foot in the door at orion sure and they see that he is a technical you know a technically adept filmmaker and they start throwing him scripts and going okay what if we could rein you know a technically adept filmmaker and they start throwing him scripts and going okay what if we could rein you in a little bit we'll get to robocop we'll get there but but that's the big thing this movie accomplishes but first we're gonna play it the box office game even though this movie doesn't have a box but it did come out okay came out this weekend okay labor day weekend 1985 1985 okay number one in its ninth week is what I assume had to be the number one movie of 1985. You know what's crazy?

It will be raining the box office by the time this episode comes out. But right now the big news story is Disney negotiating with movie theaters about the terms for The Last Jedi. As they've done the last two years for Star Wars where they want an insane cut they want like 75-80% of the box office revenue whereas in most situations the split between the studio is like

50-50 or 60-40 it's usually weighed towards the studio in the opening weekends which is why we've created an opening weekend culture and Disney's just sort of like, fucking take it or leave it. We're Star Wars. The other deal is you have to commit to playing the movie for like two months on your biggest screen. And in the story, they were like, the theaters kind of have to go with it.

I mean, after all, The Force Awakens was number one for four straight weeks. And it's like the highest grossing film of all time now. The big selling point is like four weeks where it was number one. E.T. was number one like 17 weeks. But it's a totally different era. Because this movie that's number one and it has been in theaters for nine weeks is on 1,500 screens. And that's the most screens of any movie in the box office. You know, now, of course, the movie, like Star Wars

will come out to like 4,500 screens. Even like Unforgiven, it took a year for that to make $100 million. It just made $10 million a month.

What do you think the number one movie in 1985 was? I can give you more hints. Yeah, what are the other hints other than how it's done? I haven't given you any other hints.

It's just the number one movie of 1985. Oh, it's the highest grossing film of that year? Yes. Back to the Future? Correct. Yeah. See, I thought you could get it just from that. Yeah, I didn't hear that it was the number one movie of 1985. Oh, it's the highest grossing film of that year? Yes. Back to the Future? Correct. Yeah.

See, I thought you could get it just from that. Yeah, I didn't hear that it was the number one. Number one movie of 1985. What was the number two movie of 1985? Unrelated. Gremlins? Rambo 2. Oh, fuck.

You know what I always mess up? 1984 is Gremlins and Ghostbusters come out the same day. We're going to talk about that. So, we have more to say number two yes is uh has been in the box office for two weeks stars the star of back to the future he's number one and two at the box office michael j fox michael j fox it's not teen wolf it's teen wolf they came out the same time? They came out, I mean, Teen Wolf comes out like two months later. And he's in family ties.

This guy is fucking owning right now. On fire. This little shrimpy guy. Yeah. You know what's weird about Michael J. Fox? Because I think a lot about like certain good actors who don't last culturally because they never found a movie that stuck in the craw. Like people who were big at the time. What's weird about him? Bruno Kirby is like always going that stuck in the craw. Like, people who were big at the time. What's weird about him?

Someone like Bruno Kirby is, like, always going to be in film history. No, because he's been in, like, five of the most beloved movies of all time. Sure. So this, like, little mousy, like, character actor is, like, always going to be numb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael J. Fox after Back to the Future where it's like, why didn't that guy, like, become a huge star? He did.

He had, like, a bunch of movies that were huge that no one ever talks about ever again. Yeah, and also he won, like, four Emmys in a row. Right. But he had, like, bunch of movies that were huge that no one ever talks about ever again yeah and also he won like four emmys in a row right but he had like secret of my success right like it's big city he did that buddy cop movie with james woods life with mikey doc hollywood like movies that like no one fucking talks about doc hollywood is the second most popular michael j fox movie behind back to the future what like that's what's crazy i'm saying in terms of still current day standing you know reputation michael j fox is not listed on box office mojo that's why i went silent i was trying to find him anyway doesn't matter um number three is a movie uh Rebue of a very big filmmaker who you like. Sort of a cult comedy hit.

It's in its fourth week. Pee-wee's Big Adventure? Pee-wee's Big Adventure. It's made $25 million. It's a sleeper hit? Yeah, for sure. So three pretty definitive 80s films are the top three. I mean, Teen Wolf's bad.

Yeah, Teen Wolf's a bad movie. But, you know, I guess it's well known. Yeah. But, I mean, Back to the Future and Pee-wee's Big Adventure, those are 80s, like, cultural touchstones. Certainly. And let's not talk about Pee-wee's Big Adventure anymore, and we'll probably never talk about it again on this podcast.

Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink podcast. Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink. Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink. Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink. Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink. You're very annoying. Tell the listener at home what I'm doing. Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink.

He's winking with like both eyes and saying wink every time he does it. But I'm alternating. Don't make it sound like I'm blinking. I said both eyes. I know.

Oh, okay. You know what I'm saying? All right. Now the next one is an action movie I've never heard of. It stars Michael Dudikoff. Michael Dudikoff? Yeah. Who the fuck is that? I don't know. Oh, okay. You know what I'm saying? All right. Now, the next one is an action movie I've never heard of. It stars Michael Dudikoff. Michael Dudikoff?

Yeah. Who the fuck is that? I don't know. Some guy. He was like an action star. Michael Dudikoff? Yeah. I think he's Tron.

No. No. He's not Tron. Bruce Boxler. That's right. It's Bruce Boxler. But you know, it's one of those names. He's in Tron.

I don't know. He's a guy. I mean, there's no way I know what this movie is i don't know he's a guy i mean there's no way i know what this movie is right it's about a ninja american ninja okay i do know what that movie is i didn't know he was the star yeah i know american uh tell me about it to canon films i know that but i don't know anything about american ninja it's exactly what you think it is well the poster is an american flag and it looks like sort of like Guile from Street Fighter, basically, like a guy in camo pants and then a tank top, has a katana, and he's fighting a ninja.

I think this might not quite know what a ninja is, this poster. I repeat, it is exactly what you think it is. Sure, well, it made... What if we took ninjas but made them more American? It made $3.2 million. Go picture. And it's open weekend, which is triple its budget. I know. So Dudikoff must have been, his quote must have been, what?

I mean, $50,000? His quote was definitely, you have to feed me every day. Now, number five is a Nicholas Mayer joint. Nicholas Mayer. You know Nicholas Mayer? Directed Rathacon. Yeah, yeah. Direct a Nicholas Mayer joint. Nicholas Mayer. You know Nicholas Mayer? Directed Wrath of Khan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Directed Undiscovered Country.

Time After Time? Directed Time After Time. That's right. Oh, that was going to be my guess for what this was. No, that's not what it is. And then, you know, wrote a lot of movies. Uh-huh. It's a comedy.

I thought it was Mayer. Yeah, I think it is. Yeah, you're right. No, but it's M-E. I don't know. You know what? I don't know. Yeah, anyway. It's a two-hander. Ooh. Yeah I think it is Yeah You're right No but it's M-E I don't know You know what I don't know Yeah anyway

It's a two hander Starring a famous actor And another famous comedy actor of the era But it's yeah This famous actor It's when he's still in his straight comedy phase Two male actors Two men

One of them is straight comedies But the implication is he later got out of comedies. Oh, I mean, he just becomes a movie star. Hanks? Okay, so the Hanks picture. Is it... He's the more famous or the less famous? Who's more famous than Tom Hanks? At the time of this film's release.

He's top build. He's top build. Yeah. Someone else is the other hand. You know what? His wife's in this movie. Rita Wilson. is so is this where they met it might be two-hander the comedic actor is one of my favorites oh really that makes sense you know what they first worked on an episode of bosom buddies but here's where they reconnect and they like kind of get together i think and so where was

this guy at in his career and what where's this guy now the other person uh dead for the second answer is dead was first answer is i guess he's just starting to emerge uh as like a comedy star he'd been in a movie with hanks the year before he's like a sidekick guy but he becomes kind of you know at least for a little while there he's like a leading man in a sort of you know comedy guy way i mean he becomes a leading comedy man he does by nicholas he's got a few years there and he's dead now he's dead now yeah like a tragic young death pretty young how old is he when he died oh oh oh 43 is this is this the one with John Candy it's not

it's not The Great Outdoors is John Candy and Danak right I believe that's correct this one is called I know

ah fuck this movie Candy and the Hanks I have not heard of this movie is it is it sort of like camping outdoors themed? Yeah, well, they go to like, they join the Peace Corps. Right. Oh, fuck.

It's a... If you were to join the Peace Corps, how would you describe what you're doing? Signing up. Volunteers. The movie's called Volunteers. Thank you, Ben. Yes, Volunteers. The movie's called Volunteers.

It's number five in the box office. Neither of us. Great pick. Ben with John Candy. Oh, yeah, for sure. That's number five in the box office. Neither have I. Great pick, Ben with John Kennedy. Yeah, for sure. Uncle Buck. Yeah. Oh, that's... Is a TV movie that I would watch a lot.

Would you call it a Ben's choice? Yes. But that also could be part of a future miniseries. I'm not dropping any hints here. I'm not winking as I'm saying it. That's a John Hughes movie. We're not doing John Hughes. Let's do John Hughes.

I would do John Hughes. Let's do John Hughes. Well, you know, he only directed... That's a really good number. Like nine? Eight. Eight movies. But, you know, they're samey.

And the first one is so racist. It makes me so mad. Birth of a Nation? I almost shoved my computer off the screen in anger at that joke. Off the table. Sixteen Candles is the first one, right? I have a tough time with that movie.

That movie's pretty gross, too. It's a fucked up movie. Weird movie. There's boobs in it. Kind of like the movie we just talked about. Yeah, but that movie doesn't think it's a whimsical comedy for teenagers.

I mean, Sylvester Blood doesn't. Sixteen Candles does. Breakfast Club, I stand behind. Breakfast Club's a really interesting movie. I know the complaints against it. I face them. I recognize them. I think it's a well-made film. Yeah. Yeah. Planes, Trains recognize them. Yeah. I think it's a well-made film. Yeah.

Yeah. Planes, Trains, and Automobiles is a masterpiece. It's like one of the best of that kind of comedy. Yeah, it's like one of the best American comedies of all time. I love Planes, Trains, and Trains.

I love Planes. I don't know about best American comedies of all time, but it's a great movie. I put it in my top 25. I'm not saying top 10, but I think top 50 at least. It's a really good

holiday comedy. It also, talking about our man JC, should have won Best Actor. That is an Oscar-worthy performance if I've ever seen one.

Because there's a lot of depth to him. There is a lot of depth. He's terrific. He has these really great moments. The I Like Me, People Like Me scene, put that clip up against anyone else's Oscar clip, he's like a goofball he's terrific he has these like really great moments the I like me people like me scene

put that clip up against anyone else's Oscar clip that's a fucking phenomenal piece of acting yeah and that happens

minute 30 like that's not even like his big final scene people like me my wife likes me cause I'm an open book what you see is what you get

Year of the Dragon Del Griffin uh Del Griffin. Del Griffin, baby. We're doing John Hughes. We gotta. Year of the Dragon came out this week. Yeah. Trimino and Rourke. Yeah. We're doing him next. Remember when we promised

we were doing Trimino? Yeah, right. And then the other thing I want to mention. Numbers 8 and 9 are reissues of the films Gremlins and Ghostbusters oh wow only a year later yeah huge movies watershed movies

I cheered Ben up remember how frustrating it was well that's my thing I'm going to be happy because this movie reminded me of like don't be a bummer don't be like you need to be be like oh you need to be real interesting takeaway i don't want to be real i want to be fantasy like i'm gonna start watching football i'm gonna fucking i don't know man yeah start

going to the mall if you want to avoid problematic things like football is something to stay on these are fun things a fun sport completely devoid of conflict right now. Yeah, that's fun. Oh, God. I don't know. I'll think of more fun activities. I also think the way that Verhoeven starts dealing with problematic issues in the future films we're going to discuss becomes more pointed and productive. Whereas this movie is just like fucking just wallowing, right, in depravity. Like, Robocop's about an American Jesus.

Like, you get these movies where it's people fighting against the evil. Yeah, and like I said, there's also an ending, like, with a character arc. Right. You know, whereas this movie is just like, everything got burned down or people died of the plague. Martin doesn't even die or win. And moments of thrilling adventure and successful comedy and such. In other movies, you're saying. In other movies, I'm saying.

Right, not this one. Yeah. This one's just a lot of, like, just fucked up people kind of going like, across, like, a banquet table at each other. But let's give this movie credit. It deserves a lot of credit

because I think it's kind of the rosetta stone for one man's career oh rosetta stone your favorite term okay who's who's mark marin explain this movie where they lock the gates okay get out they get inside the castle leave the room get out of here well you wouldn't have Marin. Go. If not for flesh plus blood. I'm done. I think we should call it. Flesh plus blood. Thanks for Andrew Guto doing our social media.

Joe Bowen. Joe Bowen doing artwork. Pat Reynolds. Lay Montgomery for our theme song. This has been Pod Ship Casters. Great title. Tune in next week for the greatest movie

ever man Griffin's gonna go wild I have never been more excited to talk about a film on this podcast I mean I think it's why we're doing Verhoeven it's the main reason

but I think all of them are interesting to talk about but I mean this is this is my favorite film we have discussed up until this point and I don't know

if we'll ever discuss any of the movies I like more than Robocop I mean which are like that Altman movie you love. Bruce McCloud. Uh-huh. And?

Toy Story 2. Yeah. And Rushmore. Yeah. I'd say Robocop is my numerated. You got so mad at me when I shat on Rushmore that one time. You can go fuck yourself. He was so mad.

I'd say like lock it in. That's my first, my top four. I don't even hate Rushmore. In order. I think it's pretty good. Get the fuck out of here. You thought you were done? Get the fuck out of my studio.

All right. But Robocop might be the top movie on my favorite film list we ever discussed. I get that. That's cool. I'm excited for you. I think I would have an aneurysm trying to do Wes Anderson with you. Maybe. Yeah, I would be somewhat negativeeurysm trying to do Wes Anderson with you. Maybe. Yeah, I would be somewhat negative

about a lot of the movies. Right. I don't think we'll ever do Lasseter. No, you never know. Maybe. You never know. And Altman, we could maybe, if we ever did that decade.

We would definitely need to cut that one down. Oh, yeah, but I'm not doing like Buffalo Bill and the Indians. Like, he made a lot of movies where you're just like... My pitch would be 1970 to 1980. Yeah, but I think Buffalo Bill and the Indians is in there. Okay, so that and the Indians. He made a lot of movies where you're just like... My pitch would be 1970 to 1980. Yeah, but I think Buffalo Bill and the Indians

is in there. Okay, so that's the one. That's our way of water. Bring on Han and Stefan. Have you seen that movie? I've never seen that one. It's really boring. 1976, yeah.

Anyway. Okay, great. Robocop, it's going to be awesome. Yeah, so we've announced our next 12 miniseries. They're all here in this episode. Tramino. Lasseter. Altman in the 70s

oh god we're gonna be so rich we're making so much money the ratings are gonna skyrocket straight down the middle strike baby and it's off and out of here alright we're done bye bye goodbye forever thank you all for listening

and as always stick with us we for listening. And as always, stick with us. We're talking about RoboCop next week. It's going to be fun. I promise you. I swear to God, we're talking about RoboCop next week. Yeah, just this one episode.

We're talking about RoboCop. Yeah, RoboCop. He's a robot and a cop. He's a robot and a cop. Yes. Half man, half cop. Half man, half machine, 100% cop.

I fucked it up.