Blank Check with Griffin & David - Insomnia with Alex Ross Perry

Episode Date: July 9, 2017

Writer and director, Alex Ross Perry (Golden Exits), joins Griffin and David to discuss 2002’s psychological thriller remake, Insomnia. But does this movie fit into the tradition of the auteur’s bizarre third feature? What has changed about Al Pacino’s acting post-Oscar win? How is this film another example of Nolan playing with noir conventions? Together, they discuss Robin Williams’ 2002, Hilary Swank’s career trajectory, how Darren Aronofsky came the closet to taking on Batman before Nolan did and why it’s implausible the Alaskan police chief played by Paul Dooley would also conveniently be a former LAPD detective.

You don't get it, do you, Finch? In my job, what I'm paid to do, you're about as mysterious to me as a blocked toilet is to a fucking plumber. Reasons for doing what you did? Who gives a podcast? Is it better or worse than your Goldblum? Well, I don't know. It's better. The answer is better.

It's maybe a little better. I just proved it was better. Hi, everybody. My name's Griffin Newman. I'm David Sims. It's maybe a little better. I just proved it was better. Hi, everybody. My name's Griffin Newman. I'm David Sims. I'm drinking a juice. I'm drinking a vitamin water, and this is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. Yes.

We are interested in filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their career, and I'm giving a series of blank checks to make whatever they want, their own crazy passion projects. And sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bounce. Baby. Well done. Just booking it. This is Mace Rears on the films of Christopher Nolan. That's who we're covering right now. Old Chris Nolan. Lightning Chris

We don't have a nickname yet. We'll come up with one. Like you worked with Wally Pfister. Was he ever like ah, Chrissy, you know. He always called him Chrissy. The podcast miniseries is called The Pod Knight Casts. Yeah, great title. Who is the pod knight? We will solve that by the end of this miniseries.

That's our overarching question. That's the lingering mystery. We're getting back to the Phantom Podcast days where it's a mystery show. Yeah. An investigation. Everybody's got a box. See, that was my following reference for you. Great.

Everyone's loving this. And today we're talking about the movie Insomnia. Yeah. Our guest hasn't talked yet, but I wanted to talk before we introduce him. That's like, you know. I was waiting for an introduction. No, no, no. Okay, sorry.

No, I made him feel uncomfortable. I was just following the sort of, you know, protocol and etiquette. No, I don't like the etiquette. We do things like Christopher Nolan here. Baby, we do them out of order sometimes. Sometimes. That's a good way to explain why I'm talking. Exactly.

We do them out of order, but then we explain why. Sometimes. Do you want to say some more stuff or should we introduce? Let's introduce our guest. We've got a great guest. We've said yes. A fan of the show. Fan of the show.

for sure we introduced I mean now let's introduce our guest we've got a great guest we've said yes a fan of the show fan of the show a mutual friend of ours reached out

and said hey would you want to have him on the podcast and I said geez Louise yes I said no way and then we fought and then we agreed

we're very excited to have you he's a writer and director films like The Color Wheel and Listen Up Phillip so good

and your new movie Golden Exits coming out this year? Probably. Awesome. Fingers crossed. Alex Ross-Perry is here with us in the studio. Yeah, I'm very excited to be here.

I'm a huge fan and when our mutual friend publicist said, you know, I turned down a lot of things I don't feel like doing interviews and stuff and I said,

I really want to do this. He said, you don't talk about yourself. I don't feel like doing interviews and stuff. And I said, I really want to do this. He said, you don't talk about yourself. You don't promote anything. And I was like, yeah, that's, I know. And I don't want that at all. I just want to sort of drop in on the conversation. I was a little confused by that, but here we are. Does our mutual friend want to be named or should I keep him nameless?

I just want to, I just heard a story about him that I want to share. Is it the kind of story that's better to share if we don't name him? No, no, it's fine. Either way. I think you said Rob Shearer, right?

No. Well, I, I only met Rob recently, but it's through Adam Kersh at brigade who, okay, that's right. That's right.

Gotcha. Okay. Our mutual friend, pilot on our war horse episode, walked into a screening and Rob Shearer apparently just yelled, I want to fuck that horse. And pilot was like I love playing Jackie!

And we had to. Anyway. Pilot had to be reminded of a conversation she had had six months earlier. Anyway, Alex I'm honored to be here and I thank everyone for helping set it up. We're honored to have you here. We gotta just address immediately the elephant in the room. What's that? You used to be a rival of ours at Videology Trivia.

Did you not? You would go to Videology Trivia sometimes. That's true. Yes. What was your team called? It's the thing that slowly gets sussed out listening to a lot of check episodes. We were La Ventura Pet Detective. That was a good one. You know, like a routine top three placing. Oh, yeah. No, you were the ones I feel like we feared

the most. Interesting. Yeah, I feel like you were one of the camp mohawks when we first started going. Because when David and I started going, we started going with pilots. She had a team. Very slowly, the rest of that team stopped showing up because they were like, these guys are fun. Immediately.

It was just us two immediately. Right. So for a long time, it was just the two of us playing against five, six-person teams. And we'd look at that scoreboard and be like, someday we're going to be like LaVentura Pet Detective. Yeah, it was like a six-month run that we did before everybody got too busy. Yeah, well, that's sort of what happened to us.

It gets tiring. It gets tiring. And also the, you know, it starts at like eight, but someone has to get there at six. Don't I know it. The short straw of it sort of dragged out. But the sort of format of that and what I love about the show is the same kind of deep consideration and appreciation of movie ephemera. Well, I feel like the main thing that drew me to that trivia night was the feeling of like, oh, I'm no longer the person in the room who thinks about this stuff more than anyone else. Yeah.

You know, there was like a kind of flat playing field of like all of us spend too much time thinking about all of these details. And not just in the basic kind of movie nerd trivia way that people consider. But I think we've referenced it before, but there was that audio round that was just movie studio fanfare. I was just about to ask if you were there for that. Because I think about that all the time. All the time. And everyone in this room was like, this is something I've wanted to be tested on my entire life. It was one of the most beautiful things.

It was incredible. Everyone just had their eyes closed looking up at the ceiling. And you like suddenly you don't understand what you're like. Suddenly you can't figure out if it's this or that. And there was, did they include the Paramount DVD only? It was the home video. I think it was even the VHS. Right.

Right. Because Paramount used to not have music in their fanfare. Because I remember us being like, oh, no, there is a Paramount fanfare. Like, you know, right. Right, right, yes. Right, because Paramount used to not have music in their fanfare. Because I remember us being like, oh, yeah, no, there is a Paramount fanfare. Like, you know, yeah. But it was like the kind of fanfare you'd only know if you were big on,

into like Paramount VHSs in the 90s. Well, I also want to mention, you're a Blankie nominee, or at least your films are Blankie nominees. I definitely nominated Queen of Earth

for a couple Blankies. I don't know if you've listened to the Blankie Awards. I haven't listened to the awards episodes. Just saying, you get some shout outs. I get so into the miniseries.

Yeah, I know, for sure. If I knew that, I would have been more self-conscious. I believe it was the year before our first blankies, but Jonathan Pryce, Best Supporting Actor, would have been a Griffey nominee for me. He's my winner. Really? Yeah, him and Moss.

Both my winners that year. Interesting. I'll go back and listen to that, and I'll feel glad that I didn't know that before I came in. Yeah, I agree. And I take no credit for how good Jonathan Pryce or Moss is in that year. Interesting. I'll go back and listen to that and I'll feel glad that I didn't know that before I came in. Yeah, I agree. And I take no credit for how good Jonathan Pryce or Moss is in that movie. They're so much fun. What a hero he is. He is a hero. You want to watch me get things

on track? Go right ahead. He's smiling like a fucking idiot. Here's a thing I was thinking about. Here's a thing I was thinking about watching Insomnia last night, which I think applies to you too. That like adage that like 70% of the job is casting. Yeah.

The percentage changes, I feel like, depending on who recites it. But the idea that like, you know, so much of a director's job is like hiring the right actors, you know? And I feel like you're someone who has very good taste in actors. Like when I see your movies, you can tell what kind of movie fan you are by who you cast in roles. Yeah. Hopefully. I mean, as all,

I remember Tarantino had some line once talking about Jackie Brown, which is something I hope we can talk about later in reference to bizarre third films that directors made. But, um, he says there's some, you know, quote the time where he said he only wanted to work with actors that were in movies made by his favorite filmmakers so he was like De Niro was in greetings

and hi mom and obviously many other great movies but I wanted to work with him because of how much I loved diploma and so on and so forth and I always was like yeah you should just only work with actors that have worked with directors that you think are the best well and there's also this element too of like I feel like a lot of times like every year at Sundance there's this thing that annoys me where you'll see like movies starring the people who were in the breakout Sundance movie from two years earlier right and this sense of like you know someone went to Sundance and they were there as a filmmaker trying to get their first movie off the ground and they see like obvious child and then they're like oh Jenny Slate and then they cast Jenny Slate in their movie because they saw someone else in a similar type of movie

make it. And I feel like, when I always get excited is when I see a director who I feel like has a sense of curation, of they're hiring actors that they love, that they've had their eye on for a long time, whether it's because they're in some of their favorite movies or worked with their favorite directors.

Yeah, and I feel like, to veer back into real, I feel like Nolan is really good at that. So good at that. And you've always felt like from the eight films in a row he's made with Michael Caine and his respect for that

and sort of post this movie, the company he's more or less put together of a big rotating assortment of actors and Dunkirk certainly seems to take that to a whole new level. For sure. But this movie seems like to transition into casting,

like this was a crazy cast. This was like three actors pretty much in their prime and watching it last night, I just remembered how big of a deal it seemed to be like, oh, Robin Williams just won an Oscar a few years ago.

Yeah. Hilary Swank had just won an Oscar. Yeah. And then there's like this legend in the movie and it was just like, oh, this has to be a good movie because this is a great cast. You know, Insomnia

was Pacino's first movie in basically three years. Basically his first movie since Any Given Sunday. I was wondering about that. I didn't look anything up that I'm curious about in hopes that it would stimulate more conversation because I was wondering if this was like the last kind of like obviously

serious, like... I agree. Did you have any reason at this time to not take him seriously? Had he not done any? Because 99 was Insider Any Given Sunday. I really want to talk about Pacino because I do feel like this is a big Pacino movie as well as it is you know the things we want to talk about.

I think this was the last moment where he was kind of like a capital A great actor. Should we just talk? Because like, look. I mean, I feel like after Son of a Woman, the hit on him does become a little bit, you know, in the like, because he took that long break between here,

I've got it, you know, Revolution and Sea of Love. Right. And then, you know, he comes back and everyone's like, oh, he's gotten real big, you know, and then he's real big. Like, I like him in these movies. In The Insider, he's real big.

He yells a lot in The Insider. Even though he was big though, like he did have this kind of respect. No, no, absolutely. And he worked on serious movies. That's another thing.

He worked on serious movies. He's good in Donnie Brasco. He's good in Carlito's Way, obviously, which ends the same way as this movie. Is it Donnie Brasco, Any Given Sunday, Insider?

Is there anything? What is that like? So yeah, if you want me to run down, like. Devil's Advocate, too, right? I think that's the same year. After Son of a Woman, he wins his Oscar, right? So, you know, Carly Does Way, 93.

And he should have won for Dick Tracy, but, you know, he was overdue. Two Bits in 95, never. It's a James Foley movie I've never heard of. Okay. Which he plays Grandpa. I don't know if that's. Heat. City Hall in 96, the kind of movie

you really don't make anymore about municipal parking scandals. Starring Al Pacino and John Cusack. Then you got Donnie Brasco, which he's great in, but Depp definitely overshadows him. Like, Pacino's kind of doing his thing. Depp's really good in that movie. Devil's Advocate, he's, you

know, he's very big. Is that 97 by now? 97. But that's kind of, that's the kind of best slice of Big Pacino. For sure. I mean, well,

the movie's not trying to be too serious. And he's playing the devil. He's playing the devil. And he's fun in that. He's called John Milton. It fits the tone of the film and he's enjoyable to watch.

That's like the ideal Pacino ham. And that's like, more like a Nicholson Joker where it's just like, he's just playing,. That's like the ideal Pacino ham. That's more like a Nicholson Joker where it's just like I'm here to see this. I'm riffing. It's a jazz set. It's not like wow this performance is pretty strange in this movie about the devil running

a law firm. It is weird that early 70s Pacino was like his thing he was noted for was that he was quiet. You see like Scarecrow or whatever he's like mumbling like not talking to anyone. And he had this very high-pitched voice. I mean like most of his lack is based on Pacino. Yeah.

Hank Azaria said. So that like early, like, eh, come on, you know. And then 99, just to continue running this thing, he's got The Insider and Any Given Sunday. Any Given Sunday, again, he's very, there's a lot of screaming. It's a loud movie in every way. Editing-wise, it's a loud movie. You know, like, you know, music-wise, it's a lot of screaming. That's a loud movie in every way. Editing-wise, it's a loud movie. Music-wise, it's a loud movie.

There is something interesting, though, that certainly with both the insider and Donnie Brasco, there's a bit of a hand-off thing. I was about to say, he's getting overshadowed again. He's letting younger stars, he's anointing them. By this transformation performance. Both Depp and Crowe, it's like, ooh, they look different.

Look at them act. Pacino's there to give the weight, and he gets first billing, but it's really like, oh, they look different. Look at them act. Pacino's there to give the weight and he gets first billing, but it's really like, oh, but look at this guy. He also still seems up until this point, very director centric. Very much so. From Carlito's way with another De Palma and then working with Michael Mann a couple times and Oliver Stone. He seems to actually care about

who's making his movies. For sure. Yes, absolutely. Although I would imagine he was probably involved with this movie before anybody else. Because even like Devil's Advocate movies. For sure. Yes, absolutely. Although I would imagine he was probably involved with this movie. Yes. Before anybody else. Because even like devil's advocate is Taylor Hackford, who sucks,

but he's like respected. Yeah. You know, he's like a respected hack. Yeah. From Blood In, Blood Out. I should mention also, he also directs Looking for Richard in 96,

which is a nice little movie. And he directs Chinese Coffee in 2000, which I've certainly never seen. Has anyone ever seen it? None of those were available until they all came out in a box set six or seven years ago. There was a Pacino collection and people were like, oh, what's going to be in this Pacino collection? Dog Day After... Oh, no, it's...

Four movies he directed about acting. Yeah, exactly. And then he takes a little break and then Insomnia. And in the same year he had Simone the Andrew Nichol movie which was like hyped

I remember that was like people were like this is an Oscar play and expensive and he got like 15 million dollars for that movie that was like a big

salary like payday for him and then the next year he's in The Recruit right and then Gigli that in 2003 yeah

but also Angels in America which he is very big in, but very good, and he wins an Emmy. Well, that's the transition. Post-Insomnia, he never gives a good performance in a theatrical movie again. It's just HBO. He does weird movie work.

Because there's that Merchant of Venice where he plays Shylock that's very broad. That's like hat on a hat. You don't need to see Pacino play Shylock. I can imagine that performance. Two for the Money with McConaughey. Yeah, where he says Talon's in the trailer. 88 Minutes with, I don't know, Ben McKenzie.

Right, which I think, I remember the most withering review of that movie was they even got the run time wrong. It's like 94 minutes. They were close enough and they couldn't just trim an extra six off it. He's in Ocean's 13, obviously. Right, which is a weird role. And I remember him

very dismissively saying at the time, like, they were like, you excited about being in this movie? And he's like, it's always the ones

that are the worst that pay you the most. Like, he was kind of very backhanded about even being in the movie. That, by the way,

was a very good impression. Thank you. I think it's like the quieter you go, the better you are. It's the same as the Michael Caine on the movie. That, by the way, was a very good impression. Thank you. I think it's like the quieter you go, the better you are. It's the same as the Michael Caine on the trip.

There's the loud one, which is funny, but if you can do the subtle one, the quiet one's much... I think I can do Quiet Pacino. And this movie's

all Quiet Pacino. This movie, right, it is definitely like he's tapping into a Pacino we had not seen a lot of. That's part of the appeal. Right. There's like two moments where he's loud.

We'll get to it more, but there's some interesting factors, I think, to this performance. Well, that's why I think this is a good Pacino movie. Yeah. Because I think it is about him going like, look, I know I'm a bit of an old hack at this point, because that's what his cop is. Right. But also, like, aside from Michael Caine, it's the only, like, Nolan sort of older generation casting that I can think of.

There's no, like like Nolan obviously as a student of history. Well apart from like where he like digs up Tom Berenger or Matthew Modine has him as a side piece. Matthew Modine or Anthony Michael Hall where you're like why does he want some 80s like forgotten like. But the difference is having Rucker Hauer. Having and

Eric Robertson. It's crazy how many of them he under. But these are like you know he's not like getting the... He's not like, I want to work with Nicholson. He could probably get Warren Beatty's attention. He's not doing anything like that. I've always thought he should do a movie with Clooney. I mean, that seems like the most obvious pairing

in the world to me. In this case, he seems to, which I forgot or didn't know ever that this was one of those Clooney-Soderbergh movies. When they were just buying up all these Solaris and Insomnia and trying to do these remakes of like esoteric. What was it called again? Section 8. Section 8.

Yeah. I thought for a minute it was called K Street, but then I remembered that was his HBO show. I always used to get him confused. He had two HBO shows. Because he had unscripted as well or whatever. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

They were just lobbing content at us. So yeah, I forgot that this was from that era where like you just see, in the way that now you'll always see executive produced by Brett Ratner, you just used to always see executive produced by Clooney and Soderbergh. Right, right, right. Now it's Steve Mnuchin and Brett Ratner throwing their name on all the Warner Brothers productions. That's yeah, when Warner Brothers was still taking these flyers on Soderbergh

because he had had that crazy year where he won the Oscar and had $200 million movies and then followed it up by, Then made Ocean's Eleven. They were like, this guy's tapped into the zeitgeist. And they were like, what do you want to make? The Good German. And they were like, I guess this is a blockbuster.

He would make Full Frontal, but he could get Julia Roberts to be in it. So even if it's flops, it'll still make a little bit of money. But they just got so many things set up there. But I just want to wrap up Pacino. Sure, sure. Because I feel like 2008, when he makes Righteous Kill with DeGeneres. Which is John Avnett, the same guy who did 88 Minutes. Yes. That was when everyone was Sure, sure. Because I feel like 2008, when he makes Righteous Kill with De Niro. Which is John Avnett, the same guy who did 88 Minutes.

Yes. That was when everyone was like, forget, like, I'm not getting excited about either of these people being in a movie anymore. Right. It's not like they'll be bad every time,

but you're not going to sell me on like, De Niro's in a movie, Pachino, the two of them together, like, after Heat, after all the hype about them being together in Heat, to make that,

have you ever seen that movie? Yeah, it's a disaster. It's really not good. I remember talking to my brother about, like, when that came about them being together in Heat, to make that, have you ever seen that movie? Yeah, it's a disaster. It's really not good. I remember talking to my brother about when that came out and being like, man, both those guys are cooked. And we were like, my argument to him was, yeah, but the difference is if De Niro's bad in a movie now, it just feels lazy.

Right. When Pacino's bad in a movie, it feels like he's trying so hard that it makes you respect him less, in a way. Yeah, no. Well, it's just Pacino since then. Yeah. He does these HBO movies. He's got one.

He's got, you don't know Jack, Phil Spector. And I believe he has, he has the Joe Paterno movie. Which was supposed to be De Palma, but now it's not. right now it's fucking Levinson again,

right? Six years ago it was supposed to be De Palma. And then De Palma said that that guy who was the main villain on Project Greenlight is the reason that movie didn't happen. Oh, interesting. Weird that that guy who was the main villain on Project Greenlight is the reason that movie didn't happen. Oh, interesting. That guy who's the exact on Project Greenlight who is giving all the approval for whatever and loves the movie that they made.

De Palma's like, did you see that show? That's the guy that made me not want to work in television. But that's his trilogy of Angels in America. You don't know Jack. The most hated people in America. Right, and he gets his kind of like 80s auteurs to like direct them for him.

And he'll get his Emmy nomination and stuff. Right. He gives one good theatrical performance post-Insomnia. I'd say there's one really strong Pacino big screen performance post-2002. Are you going to say Jack and Jill? I'm going to say Jack and Jill. He's very good in Jack and Jill. I've never seen it I'm going to say Jack and Jill. He's very good in Jack and Jill.

I've never seen it. I just know that he plays himself. He is very good in Jack and Jill. I'm not coming out here with hot takes. I'm not trying to argue Jack and Jill's good. He's really weirdly locked in in that movie. I mean, honestly, when you're looking at his IMDb page, there's not a lot else to really, because it's like stand-up guys, The Humbling,

Manglehorn, Danny Collins. He's churn out content that comes out in January. I feel like Manglehorn was David Gordon Green, right? I feel like that should have been. It should have been. I feel like it was even at Venice maybe. I think you're right. He plays Manglehorn for crying out loud. It had all the makings of something that could have been decent as

a return to form and just it can't get seen. And every time the poster is like Pacino looking fucking weird. He's got some hairdo. He's wearing like grandma glasses and Mangalhorn he's holding a cat. What is this movie? There was this weird

diptych that David Gordon Green did in between like studio comedies that was Joe and Mangalhorn where he was like I'm going to take these once very respected actors who now have kind of become cartoonish parodies of themselves, look really weird, and try to make really stripped-down character dramas with them, and both of those movies, like, almost work.

They're not bad, but they're just like— Joe's okay. Yeah, and Michael Horne's okay. He's a good director. I mean, he makes, like, sort of sometimes you're more just thinking, like, why did you make this? Like, why was this the script you wanted to do? I just feel like both of those movies,

I think those actors especially were hoping that they were like tender mercies. Like, here's your comeback. You know, here's the sparse character drama that like brings you back into the pocket. So just to wrap, here's what he's got coming. Okay. Number one, he's got The Irishman,

the new Martin Scorsese movie. He's playing Jimmy Hoffa in The Irishman, the $100 million Netflix movie. Right. Also, something called Hangman, directed by someone called Johnny Martin. I don't know him. Alex, I'm sure you haven't heard of Johnny Martin. Co-starring Carl Urban and Brittany Snow, A homicide detective cheems up with a criminal profiler to catch a serial killer whose crimes

are inspired by the children's game, Hangman. So that's what we got with Pacino, I feel like. I'm going to throw out a hot take. That's sort of the shit sandwich. Pacino should not play cops ever again. If you tell me Pacino's playing a cop in a movie, I'm out. At this point, I'm out.

How crazy would it be, how surprised would you be if you heard they're a cop in a movie, I'm out. At this point, I'm out. Like, how crazy would it be? How surprised would you be if you heard they're reviving Law & Order, Dick Wolf is reviving Law & Order, like, the original, and it's Pacino? I would not be surprised at all. It wouldn't be that surprising. It would be boring. It wouldn't be exciting to watch. But so that's what's interesting about Insomnia,

is it does have that vibe a little bit where they're like, let's bring in the old cop, and it's Pacino. And everyone's like, oh, you know, right? Like, everyone around him is like, let's bring in the old cop and it's Pacino and everyone's like, oh. You know, right? Like everyone around him is like, oh, you're the legend. Well, a couple factors I think are interesting. One, the character's very different in the original Insomnia.

Okay, so Griffin watched the original Norwegian movie. Humblebrag. The Erik Skoldeberg. Right. I don't know how you say his name. He went on to Prozac Nation. Oh. Yeah. The movie is very similar in plot.

All the major incidents are the same. And it's set in like the Arctic Circle or whatever. Right, right. But it's still, it's a novelist. It's a teen girl. All the sort of details, the plot events happen in the same kind of way. The characterizations are very, very different. It's like a dirtier movie.

It's a grimier movie. It's a much smaller movie it's less emotional but the big thing is in the original it's Stellan Sarsgaard who's a great actor but he's much younger seems like a kind of virile in his prime cop and he's a little disgraced the thing is

that he they caught him sleeping with a key witness in a case so he used to be a big city cop and now he's relocated to the middle of nowhere. He's not brought in as the outside expert the way Pacino is here. Sure, I see. He's just been shuffled over to Trump.

He's a little kind of like on the back of his heels, and he's not revered in the same kind of way. That's interesting because I did question halfway through the movie if the movie had done enough to establish why this cop was brought in from L.A. all the way to Alaska to solve something. It does absolutely nothing to establish it. It's crazy. This is like a hundred person town in Alaska.

There are two lines. He's an L.A. cop. When he first meets Paul Dooley, he says something like, hey, Joe doing me a favor. Right. They're like old friends. Right. Like the guy asked him to do it. And the other thing is I think he just wants to get the fuck out of L. he doesn't like what's going on i think the idea is the lapd wanted him

out because they're investigating him so they're like yeah sure go but they even sent him with his partner like they sent his partner his poor partner has to go to night mute it's the sweatiest part of the movie because because in the like in the original it's like oh sarsgaard wasn't relocated to this small town but he's in a town adjacent enough that they were like, hey, would you mind go checking on this murder case? In Insomnia, it's like, hey, do you want to board an eight-hour flight to team up with Hilary Swank?

And the Hilary Swank-type character in Insomnia is not, they don't have the same kind of relationship where she's as sort of green and idolizes him to the same kind of degree. That's interesting, too, to learn that in the world of detective work there's like book reports and she's like i wrote my my dissertation on you i love that i love that she's like a cop nerd yeah but like it's not there's not a lot done with that it's just a way to sort of explain

that there's like a secret this guy has that she at some point wrote a book report on but it also it's an interesting counterpoint to this cop who's just so idealistic and in love with the world of like solving crime. Yeah, it's, I mean, look, I think Swank's good in the movie. I mean, she to me has the Robin Wright pen role in Unbreakable where you're like,

she's doing a great job, but she's got like half a character. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on her character and the Nolan filmography of women characters. Yes. I also wanted to hopefully talk about how this movie comes for Nolan and where you guys are at with

thinking that like, because he's such a good subject, I think, for a series. And this, I think, is so far away from where he gets a blank check. And this to me is like, that's why I raised my hand about this movie because A, I hadn't seen it since it came out.

I had basically no memory of it and love the guy so much now and thought this was just like a weird movie. It's a weird turning point, too, because we were saying, you know, following Memento and Insomnia are all like neo-noir crime movies. They're all starring adults. They're all pretty grounded, you know? He was almost just like the neo-noir crime movies. They're all starring adults. They're all pretty grounded, you know? He was almost just like the neo-noir guy. Right, and then the next movie is Batman and he becomes the epic guy. They're all spins on neo-noir. Like with Memento, it's like a neo-noir,

but the guy can't remember anything. Insomnia, it's neo-noir, but the sun never goes down. So it's like a reverse noir, right? Like he's doing like a little tweak every time. Right, but it seemed like this was gonna be his like patina and there's this leap of like, okay, following $6,000 and he makes it with his friends. Then he gets to make a movie with

real actors for like a pretty small budget and it blows up and everyone goes like, okay, this is the guy. And then he makes this like $40 million Warner Brothers, like big studio movie. Nice looking Oscar winners top to bottom. Right. Yeah. And also like, but also importantly, I think from my interest, like he lands this job. Yes.

Yeah. Like this was something that came across because after Memento, people were like. Well, I want to. What do you, like now you would go from Memento to Batman. Right. Right. Right. And instead there used to be this intermediary step.

Well, and there also used to be these intermediary movies. Right. Right. Right. He lands this movie after Memento has come out in Britain, but before it's come out in America. Interesting. I guess it had already done festivals.

Yeah, it was obviously a hot movie, but he filmed this movie from April to June 2001. Like, Memento came out in, like, March 2001. Yeah. So, obviously, it was kind of, probably a little like Trevor or whatever. It was like they knew he had another movie in the can before they... Memento came out in the spring of 2001.

Came out March 2001. Was it at Sundance in 2001? I think it was. I'm going to look it up for you right now. While you do that, can I say a full disclosure that I know Chris Nolan and his wife a little bit? Interesting. And they're very great people and have helped me ever so slightly. Tell us more. Helped you move. Helped you. Yeah. Interesting. And they're very great people and have done good, have helped me ever so slightly.

Tell us more. Helped you move, helped you. Yeah. Yeah. Just like being supportive. I met him. He owns a U-Haul.

You didn't know that. Yeah. He does everything. Do they live in LA or are they like based in London? Okay. I met him because

I moderated a panel at Sundance about shooting on film with him, Colin Trevorrow, and cinematographer Rachel Morrison. Okay. And part of the setup for that was that every one of these moderators watched a movie of

mine, and I talked with them on the phone for like two hours before Sundance. So at some point, I just got a phone call that was like, hello? And I was like, please hold up for Chris Nolan. Damn. Crazy. Which movie did he talk to you about? He watched Queen of Earth and had like just watched it I guess in a screening

room and had all these questions about like the sort of filmic texture of it and asked if we'd like printed our titles optically and other great compliments sure and then we did this panel and the experience of being around him like in public is really exciting as you can probably imagine yeah

he is one of those directors who's become like visually iconic in and of himself. Right, which I also am excited to talk about because at this point, he's like a studio gun for hire. Right. And like by two years ago

when I did this thing, there's like a security detail around him when he walks into a room full of nerds. Well, I remember when like in some, not in some years. So this is before Interstellar or had it just come out? No, this was last January. Okay, so Interstellar had come out, right.

When Inception came out, there was that running meme about the fact that DiCaprio is styled so much like Nolan in that movie, which that joke wouldn't have legs if the mainstream public didn't know what Christopher Nolan looked like. That's also an important thing. Like, he's become a celebrity without become a celebrity without coveting any press. Yeah, it's true. He's not the kind of director that would be on a talk show.

It's from featurette interviews, but those featurette interviews everyone fucking watched because there was this immediate hope that sprung up around him trying to figure out this guy's making movies differently than everyone else, it feels like.

I love Memento. Was it at Sundance? Yeah, so I'm going to give you the rundown. It actually debuted in the Venice Film Festival in 2000. And then, you know, so it did like Deauville, it did Toronto in 2000. So he's locking down the Insomnia deal while it's on this festival run. I assume so. And then it's at the, you know, 2001 Sundance Film Festival.

And comes out in America. It had already come out in Britain last year. I saw it in Britain as we discussed on the previous episode that we haven't recorded yet. And it comes out March

in America. And of course, it's this surprise hit. Yeah. I mean, we'll talk about this in the previous episode. but just to contextualize

that at this time, he's not iconic. He was just like, he made a movie that blew people's minds. But I, yeah, I remember by contextualize that at this time he's not iconic. He was just like he made a movie that blew people's minds. But I remember by the time that Insomnia came out, the fact that it was from the director of Memento

even if he wasn't named brand was like, that's a guy everyone's paying attention to now to see if the Memento guy can replicate it. Yeah, that's certainly why I saw it opening weekend and it was very exciting. Especially if it came out a year later. It came out a year later in America and came out sorry, when did it. Especially if it came out a year later. It came out a year later in America and came out, sorry,

when did it come out? It came out May. I remember it was a summer release. May 2002. We will get to the box office. That shocked me and I'm excited.

It is crazy. That's another throwback is like this movie was like a $40 million studio movie starring three Oscar winners. And it was billed as like Academy Award

winner Pacino, Academy Award winner Williams, Academy Award winner Swank. On the Blu-ray box they do this thing where they simplify it and they just say Academy Award winners

and then have the three names underneath it which is such a fucking it's a boss move to just go like we don't have anyone above the title who doesn't have hardware I've never seen that

before I like that it I was really impressed it's a rare feat I mean yeah it's also the poster the theatrical poster was just like floating heads in dark it was like a very studio crime movie. It's black and it's like swank and full.

Right. Like crouching by the body or something. Or maybe it's Pacino actually crouching by the body. No, because it's a big Pacino head with sunglasses, I know. No, it is. Pacino's on it twice. Like Pacino and then Pacino with sunglasses and then, yeah, in opposite profile you got Rob Will. The Blu-ray cover is like one of the few times I've ever seen, like not Criterion,

but a studio so greatly improve the image for their movie in the home video release. The Blu-ray cover is just Pacino in the fog with the gun and Robin Williams' silhouette

behind him. It's a nice cover, yeah. It's like really good. Yeah. But it was a summer release. They weren't like, this is an Oscar play. Filmy hadn't written.

We should know. This is the only film he ever directed that he had no credited hand in the script. I was watching the credits leaning on the edge of my seat because I didn't know that. I was like, I wonder if there's a writing.

They said, I think he did a rewrite on it before he took off, but he has no credit. But even just that like, it was a script that existed and it was also based on another movie. Right, based on another movie.

It was written by Hilary Seitz, whose only other credit is Eagle Eye. Interesting. The Shia LaBeouf, Michelle Monaghan joint. But you have to imagine, the original film comes out in 97. Warner Bros. buys the remake rights. They hire someone to write it. They have scripts in development for a little while. And it's kind of like a precursor to the Nordic crime thriller that becomes so popular in the next few years.

But this was probably a property that was kicking around within Warner Brothers trying to make some version of it. And then here's the hot guy. Here we got a couple huge actors attached to it. The movie's ready to go. It was an Oscar play. It was like, this is a smart summer thriller for adults. It's a cop thriller with Pacino. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And it did fairly well. Did good. We'll get to that. And then led to this crazy success. But I feel like it's kind of weirdly the most forgotten

Nolan movie. I mean, that's why I was so excited about picking it just because it's so not, and also like, there's no, having just watched it,

there's no reason for that. No. It's not like it's the forgotten one because like, you know, it's not like his big trouble where he just like came in after someone got fired. Right, right, right. It's like, you know the forgotten one because like you know it's not like his big trouble where he just like came in after someone got fired.

Right, right, right. It's like you know he made this movie he nurtured it he has like the same crew as he worked with before. It's the Memento crew it's David Julian did the score

Wally Pfister shot it Dodie Dorn edited it it's like the same Memento team. So it is like a true Nolan thing but there's just something about it that like between Memento and Batman it's just so easy to forget

about. Well, it's also, this is the movie where the Nolan house style, I feel really solidifies because of the budget, because of the sort of the scale of everything, the prestige of everything, the sort of meticulousness. Memento is obviously much more like a down and dirty production. He uses that to his advantage.

But like, stylistically, Batman Begins is far more similar to Insomnia than it is to Memento. But people make that Memento jump because Memento in terms of narrative is very Nolan. Sure. Well yeah and of course. But I mean also this is the last film he makes that is not genre

you know in some way. Obviously it's a detective movie so it is that. But you know every movie makes sense either as like sci-fi or somewhat fantastic. He's doing a twist on a larger genre rather than just staying within this noir patina. Although obviously, you know, he brings gritty realism to genre, I guess,

is what he does. That's his thing. That's his finger point. Well, what do you think of the movie, Alex? I really like it. We never even said what we thought of the movie. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I hadn't seen it in 15 years, and it really, I thought it really held up. And it's just totally solid. It's, like I said, I hadn't seen it in 15 years and it really, I thought it really held up and it's, it's just totally solid. It's a, like, this is the kind of movie that is TV now. I was about to say, I mean, it's almost hacky to say, but it is. You almost kind of alluded to the killing and like Nordic crime. It's like, this movie feels a lot like what True Detective feels like at its best, I suppose.

Sure. And I think that's kind of shocking because the $40 million studio movie doesn't exist, especially the non-gimmick-driven one. Right. And starring someone like Pacino. Nothing but Oscar winners. And this style has just sort of moved away from theatrical filmmaking. I don't really know if this movie

has anything to do with that. But it's the kind of movie that I appreciate has a beginning, middle, and end. Can you imagine watching Pacino try to piece this together for seven hours? And also, right, I actually like that about it and I had kind of forgotten that about it because it had been so. I don't think I've seen this since

I saw it in theaters maybe one time. That it's a murder mystery where the murder is not that mysterious and gets solved pretty quickly. Like an hour in tops. It's a murder mystery where the murder is not that mysterious and gets solved pretty quickly. Like, an hour in tops. It's a character story, really, you know, centered around a murder mystery. But he puts it together very fast. Yeah, there's two suspects, and one of the suspects, Pacino's like, eh, this kid didn't do it.

It becomes a morality tale. I mean, that's what the movie really becomes. Yeah, no, for sure. It's about a man in purgatory or something, right? Like, in a weird sort of, no, for sure. It's about a man in purgatory or something, right? Like in a weird sort of like tormenting landscape. Yeah. I mean, we'll talk about it,

but like that shot of him under the logs, that's the one I think about the most. Which is great. That's one of two amazing, I mean, there's that sequence and the initial one in the fog.

The fog scene's terrific. Those are incredible and there's no question that people saw those and were like, this guy's going to be an amazing visual filmmaker. Let's see what else he can do

because those sequences are representative to me of so much more than what this movie needed to be an amazing visual filmmaker. Let's see what else he can do because those sequences are representative to me of so much more than what this movie needed to be enjoyable. Right. There's especially, I mean, the fog, obviously you need, that's crucial to, you know, the actual plot mechanics, but the things like the logs, that's not something you necessarily,

the weird log chase that immediately just turns into him like being like trapped and tormented under this little prison of like logs bashing together. something you necessarily, the weird log chase that immediately just turns into him being trapped and tormented under this little prison of logs bashing together. It's just a cool idea. I'll say this too. From having worked with Pfister, I think the thing that united the two of them

that made their partnership so strong Wally hates cheating on anything. Sure. You know? And we should mention, Wally Pf like, hates cheating on anything. Sure. You know? And we should mention, like, Wally Pfister had not done anything before Memento. It was, like, a huge, huge step up.

And in between Memento and Insomnia, he did Scotland PA. Right. Like, you know, so it's not like Wally Pfister's some… He was, like, Maura Tierney's guy for a run. Right, right, right. Him and Tierney were just, like… If you wanted Maura Tierney and you wanted a run. Him and Tierney were just like... If you wanted Maura Tierney and you wanted to get into Sundance, you had to hire Wally Fister. Remember Scotland, Pennsylvania?

Directed by her husband, I believe. Billy Morissette. There was a poster for that somewhere at NYU. With the spatula? Yes. I just remember that was the turn of the 2000 Let's Update Shakespeare

run with 10 things I didn't know. With an exclusively bad company-based soundtrack. that like yeah the turn of the you know that 2000 let's update Shakespeare run with like 10 things that ended by U and O with an exclusively bad company based soundtrack yeah right no Wally had like only done

like B sci-fi movies and had done a lot of like Playboy videos and stuff like that and then had been like AC or Second Unit or things like that on bigger things

but then Memento was really the breakthrough and then this is the movie where for the first time he has like a budget to create these images with Nolan and he's just like you know not faking light sources not cheating on angles

trying to do stuff for real as much as possible which is obviously an aesthetic that like Nolan shares and you just feel that with this movie in terms of like the color palette of this movie is really really interesting to me because I feel like a lot of people would have tried to, like, go kind of, like, scrubbed out. Sure. And desaturated, you know, especially with this whole, like, okay, these white skies.

But I like that the rest of the movie is kind of really colorful. Yeah. In terms of what people are wearing and the set dressing and all of that. As, like, a daytime movie, it's so, like, unnecessarily complicated. The entire movie looks like just, like, heinously hazy 1030 in the morning. Right, right. And it's a good, easy trick that he's pulling. You know, every time you're like, oh, right, it's nighttime.

Like, you know, it's such an easy trick to pull. And it works so well. It's so unnerving at a certain point. So, so unnerving at a certain point. So, so unnerving. Yeah. And this is the first movie where like they have the money and the time to like get everything they want, you know, and to be able to be like, what's the best version of this sequence? The best version of this shot, which I think you see like this is how people get blank checks is when they're given money and the studio sees them spend every single dollar, every single cent well. This is a Warner Brothers movie, we should say, and they're the ones who make Batman Begins. He's been at Warner Brothers.

Do you feel like Batman Begins is a blank check? Or do you feel like that's landing a bigger, more high-profile job than this? Griffin kind of has a take, I think. I think this was kind of a test. I think Memento ended up being like, okay, let's see what he can do. And then Insomnia was a test to see

if you can like play in the studio big leagues. And then when he like surpassed their expectations on that test, Batman Begins is like the weird blank check test. But Inception to me is the real blank check. That was my thinking. Which is weird because that's like many movies into a career

that started very strong with movie number two. Right. It's absolutely. It didn weird because that's like many movies into a career that started very strong with movie number two. Right. Absolutely. Every movie has, apart from the prestige I think, has sort of tipped him into greater success but Inception is the kind of thing where, I mean that's why he gets to make whatever he wants, right? The thing that's big about him though is that

he's got this crazy quiet confidence and is so exacting and knows exactly what he's trying to do and everyone says he's this amazing communicator. That whoever he's talking to, department head, actor, he can convey exactly what he wants in a sentence without any sort of wiggle. Not in a demanding, dictatorial way, but just like, here's exactly what it is. And it just tracks. And so you just imagine if you're at Warner Brothers and this 31-year- guy comes in and he's made two movies that exceeded where what they should have been and is able to very succinctly explain to you what he wants to make. You just go like, I guess we should give this guy a shot.

I Batman. Right. Like he's getting like blank checks with like a lot of stipulations. Like they're like, here's a check. We might take it back from you if this doesn't work out well. That was what I mean. I feel like we're not really talking so much about the movie

which is sad because I love when I love when you guys do that we're gonna yeah but um it is interesting to think like this was just a job

like Clooney and Soderbergh had this movie he made this movie Batman's obviously something they were looking to do it's not like when he walked in and was like

what are you guys doing with Batman they were like I don't know nothing because they had been trying to make Batman movies so many aborted attempts. They kept on hiring writers and directors. They're just looking for whoever's going to be the guy

that says the thing about Batman that makes sense now. And his ability to do that is kind of amazing. But even still, he's still just doing these other things. And you mentioned Aronofsky. Thinking about this movie, I was thinking a lot about Aronofsky. Thinking about this movie, I was thinking a lot about Aronofsky

because I feel like Nolan, super smart, makes this movie, plays their game, Sure. does a really good job with it,

by my opinion, I assume. I love this movie. Yeah. I even said that. I full stop love this movie. Him doing a good job with this

and then getting a bigger job and doing a very good job with that eventually leads him to Inception. Whereas Aronofsky basically makes his Inception, which is the fountain, immediately after his equivalent of Memento, which is like this small breakout movie that blew teenage Alex's mind. And then they're like, what do you want to do? And he wasn't like, well, what scripts do you have? Which Nolan seems to have said. He was like

I've got this thing it's the craziest idea now's my chance to make it and then that set him back big time well A it took him just like 7-8 years to make it he didn't make

you know anything for a while I think right there were 6 years between Requiem and Fountain I think it's 2000 to 2006 yeah

that sounds right Fountain definitely came out when I was in college it's yeah 2000 to 2006 but Nolan was very deliberate but the Fountain definitely came out when I was in college. It's, yeah, 2000 to 2006. But Nolan was very deliberate. But the fountain had all these problems, right? Where, like, a star left it.

It was Brad Pitt and Cate Blanchett. They left really soon before they were going to start filming. And then he freaked out, and there was, like, a graphic novel, and he was like, maybe this is the only thing we get from the fountain. And then it was like, no, he's making the fountain. He makes the fountain, and it was like, people were like, what the fuck was that? Like, one of those movies where people were angry about it. But he also was, like, in the mix for a Batman movie.

For sure. He had his year one pitch. Instead, he was just like, I'm going to do my thing. I have my great fountain idea. And Nolan was just like, well, let's take these meetings at Warner Brothers and see what they've got and see what I can do with their properties and learn how to make, like, the $200 million movies I already want to make. I feel like Inception was his fountain and he just kept holding it back because even the prestige.

He had Inception as like a concept in 99 he said and he had sold it to Warner Brothers earlier but they like weren't ready to make it yet. We'll get to Inception. But that is interesting because Aronofsky was the guy who came closest to making Batman post Schumacher. He was the take that they were the closest on.

He was attached for a long time. And I think they ultimately thought it was too weird what he was trying to do. And Nolan just was like very deliberate and patient. Let's dig into this movie. I really want to talk about this movie. One more question. Did Nolan talk about insomnia to you? No.

Right. I'm sure if I'd asked, he would have. Right, right. I just wanted to know if he had any, because it certainly is the movie he talks about the least. Yeah, now I kind of wish I had or like, you know,

at some point could sort of get the read on, but I imagine there's pride in it. I mean, it certainly is uncompromising. It doesn't feel like it's his like, oh, the studio kind of, you know, had their own ideas

and you can see when you watch that movie, it's not mine and you look at it and you're like, oh yeah. No, it's no, it doesn't feel that way. It has that visual trick that he used a lot

in Memento of the rapid cuts to flat, like sort of surreal looking imagery that are flashbacks that you're eventually going to put together, like the blood spreading on the cloth. But especially compared to the original, this movie

feels very Nolan-y. It's not just like, okay, just do an American version of that film. Right. Everything he adds to it is very distinct. But it is also a Pacino movie. It's a very Pacino movie. Okay. Wait, Ben. How you doing? If you want anything, just tell me and I'll swing the mic over.

Oh, I'm good. Thanks. You guys are so smart. Ben doesn't have a microphone. Hey, Ben. Ben. Yeah, what's up? Come on. You're our finest film critic. I know, and I...

Yeah, I... Yeah. You're producer Ben. It's true. You're the Ben-ducer. Yeah. The pro-doer Ben. Okay, you're right. You're cheering me up.

You're the Haas. Yeah. Mr. Positive. Mr. Haas-itive. The tiebreaker birthday Benny. You're the meat lover. You're the fart detective. He just looks at Positive. Mr. Hossitive. The tiebreaker birthday Benny. You're the meat lover. You're the fart detective. He just looks at me when he does this too. You're the fuck master.

People don't call you Professor Crispy. They can't. But they wish you a hello fennel. Yeah, please do. Graduate certain tells over the course of different mini-series. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Producer Ben Kenobi, Kylo Ben. Ben Sey, Ben and Shyamalan, Say Bennything,

Ailey Ben's with the Dollar Sign, Warhouse. Right, right. Come on, have some pride. All right, you did it. Anything else, Ben? Now. Okay, no. Great, okay, cool.

So Insomnia. Just give me a tap, Ben, and I'll swing over. Insomnia. All right, I'm going to run down swing over. Insomnia. All right. I'm going to run down the plot of Insomnia. It's set in Nightmute, Alaska. It's a real town, but I think is not an Arctic town. How ironic.

I think they just like the name. It's a good name. Nightmute. More like Daymute because it's never night in this movie. Sure. Because it's the summertime. Well, it's not ironic because they mute night. So there is.

Oh. It's actually. Wow. Alex just schooled you. Wow. I didn't occur to me when watching the. Alex just schooled you. Wow. I didn't occur to anyone watching the movie. Ironic town names. Wow.

And it's the halibut capital of the, you know, Martin Donovan really likes ripping on that in his 10 minutes of screen time. And as my wife looked up, filmed in British Columbia, not Alaska. Right. She said this movie doesn't look like Alaska. Yes. It has these gorgeous landscapes. They're very green and, like, very pretty.

I promise I'm not going to keep on doing this, but I think this is an important distinction. Martin Donovan dies at the 30-minute mark in this movie. Sure. In the original, his partner dies like 15 minutes in. Okay. And the partner is the older, more seasoned guy. Oh, interesting.

Not the sort of idealistic, younger dude, you know? Martin Donovan is actually pretty good because he strikes me, he's not like anything in particular. He's a little prickly. He's a little bit of an asshole, but he's okay. And you know, it's not like he's- The actor or the character?

The character. I mean, the way, you know, like he's not playing him as someone who hates or looks up to Pacino exactly. He's kind of like respects him, probably knows he's a little fucked up. Like, right? I mean-

I like that the movie doesn't stack the deck. It doesn't do any legwork to establish their relationship. There's no introduction to how they work together. They just show up together and that's it. They're just partners. They talk to each other. It's also just good casting because Martin Donovan's

just a really fucking solid actor. He shows up and he's comfortable on screen. He immediately there's a sort of welcome a really fucking solid actor and he shows up and he's comfortable on screen and he just like he immediately there's a sort of like welcome sort of like warning quality with him where you just like

hit the ground running and you're like okay I'm buying this guy in scene with Pacino he seems like a cop like this movie can just start moving along. You also have a real sense

that this guy is not in the whole movie. Yes. That is true. You know right off the bat that it's not Pacino William Swank Yes, yes. That is true. You know right off the bat that it's not Pacino, Williams, Swank, and Donovan. Right, right.

They could have pulled a trick, I guess, and cast, like, you know, name an Oscar-winning actor. I don't know. Like, even not remembering the plot of the movie, I knew this guy was either

going home or something was happening to him. So, they are LAPD detectives. Will Dormer, that's Pacino's character. Uh-huh. And Hap Eckhart. Eckhart?

Eckhart, yes. They've been sent to Alaska. Eckhart is the copiest name I've ever heard. It's quite a cop name, Hap. Hap Eckhart? They've been sent to Night Mute because the police chief, Paul Dooley, knows Will. Hey, do me a favor. Come investigate this murder.

He was like an LAPD guy, and then he was like, all right, packing up, going back to Night Mute. When Al Pacino walks into the room, and he's got sunglasses, and he's got the leather jacket on, and his weird Pacino hair and makeup, he's like, hey, we're from L.A.

You're like, this is an L.A. cop. And when Paul Dooley's like, we used to work on the force together. It's like, you never lived in L.A. Paul Dooley, you have been in Nightmare in Alaska your entire life. I love Paul Dooley. I do too. He's a great actor. This is the thing I was talking about.

Like, okay, you got three big Oscar winners in this movie. You could give Nolan credit for working with them well, but the studio probably wanted those people. But Nolan's real fingerprint in terms of casting comes from the below the line, like, oh, Dooley, Cat, you know? Yeah An icky cat for sure.

More tyranny. Like these are just like really good like actors actors. Five time Emmy award winner Jonathan Jackson. Is really good in this. I just like noting that he has five daytime Emmys. Daytime Emmys yeah. Anyway there was a girl has been murdered.

Twin Peaks style. A 17 yearyear-old girl was beaten to death. And they have to solve the murder. Pacino's like, let me see the body. He goes in there. He immediately just fucking nails it. You see this guy's the best goddamn detective. And Nicky Cat's all like, I did the report. Right?

Like, he doesn't like that Pacino wants to see the body. Nicky Cat may be Hollywood's most underrated scoffer. He scoffs a lot in this movie. If you need someone to just be kind of like, like just a simmering irritation at what the main character is doing. I think the mustache is just, that's the decision they all made. And it was such a good decision. It's such a good decision.

Because you just look at this guy and you're like, right, this is what he decided to do. Every day he's like, got to keep the mustache perfectly trim. Well, especially because this is this thing i love about pacino being in this movie is like here's this weird quiet like kind of character study movie about a guy breaking down in every sense right breaking down physically psychologically his whole set of morals and everything but pacino's kind of treating this to a degree like it's just him doing another cop movie so like you could tell he came in with like this is how i'm gonna dress sure this is how i'm gonna play some of these

scenes in terms of the movements he does a little bit of his like pacino kind of like swagger shit sometimes so it's like halfway in between like sea of love and something like you know the insider yeah um but the movie contextualizes that so well by being like he's this la cop he's the hot shot everyone like respects him hillary swank studied him and now you're just gonna see him fucking crumble so it plays into the fact that it's like but she knows a little too old to be like getting away with acting like this sure i get the movie's kind of on the same page what do you think Alex I mean his sort of like introduction to the town

is really simple and I think that I mean he is kind of doing the doing the thing you're describing I don't know if I have

much more to say about that I like his mumble it's just like it's the quiet Pacino and his like disintegration into like illness is really interesting and kind of

believable I agree because it's not too pronounced like he is really interesting and kind of believable. I agree. Cause it's not too, uh, pronounced. Like he really feels sick and tired. It's, it's kind of like Hanks is cold in bridge of spies where it's like,

you know, like, yeah, I get this guy's tired without him going like, like every scene or whatever. His, he's just his eyes. I mean,

is the right, it's the best way to put it. He just looks fucking weary. Like if it wasn't the point of the movie, you would be like, man, he's just, like, someone's, like, feeding lines to him. Like, someone's just, like, feeding lines to him through an earpiece.

He is, like, asleep at the wheel. But because it is the point, he kind of has an excuse to, like, just not seem like he's paying attention in any scene. Yeah, it's actually, right. It's a good, that's probably why the movie is a good Pacino movie in a sea of kind of mediocre Pacino performances.

When people do their, like, modern day Pacino impression, they do a lot of that, of, like, squirming around in the chair and, like, not making eye contact and, like, mumbling stuff under their breath. This idea that he's, like, trying to do this almost, like, kind of Brando, I don't want to be on camera thing. And this movie, like, uses that to, like, this is just him fucking being off the rocker there's this uh it was in like the last couple weeks of uh david letterman doing his show when pacino came on to do like a guest top 10 and he wandered in with like the seven scarves on and the hair adding

like an extra 12 feet of height onto his head just being like like, oh, Dave, I always want to do the top 10. And then the bit is he doesn't feel like he can deliver the joke, so he's asking Letterman if he can just read the numbers. So Letterman still does the jokes, and Pacino reads the numbers. And Pacino reads the numbers as if they're, like, Shakespeare text. Like, he gives them all these, like, weird actor twists. Sure, sure, sure. But there's one of them where Letterman forgets the bit,

and it's clearly a real moment not a planned moment but the camera's on Pacino and they're ready for Pacino to go like number six or whatever and Letterman forgets the bit and just says number six himself

instead he says it himself and the audience kind of goes ahhh and there's this shot of Pacino just deflating and he kind of looks around and like

like he's a confused old man who doesn't remember where he is anymore and can't remember if he was supposed to say the six or not. This is grim. And that moment is exactly how Pacino plays being tired the rest of the movie, which is just like, was I supposed to say six or not? I can't remember anymore. I say that, I say that. It just feels like actual senility. Sounds like something I'd say. Yeah, right.

He has a big ring in the movie too. Like a sort of like Johnny Depp style ring. I think his whole styling in this movie was like he brought his team in and was like, this is how I'm dressing. There was no negotiation. Like a leather jacket somewhere between the waist and the knees, but there's like not a trench coat and not a real coat either. Right.

I don't think Nolan was allowed into any costume meeting for Pacino's character. I think Pacino just said, here's what I'm doing. It's also interesting that as you're saying, especially at this time, there could be a Pacino-Robin Williams movie that is just nothing but ham-fisted, idiotic performances. And they're both as far away from that

as I think they could possibly be at this point. Agreed. We'll get into Williams, who I think is terrific in this movie. But she also has the weird scar on his neck in this movie, which they never address. They talk about it. Oh, right, right, right. Swank Gossam is like,

is that when Jimmy the Snake? Right, right. It was his famous, yeah. She basically is like, that's from the whatever case. And he's like, yeah. And she's like, were they really hiding in the basement at 385

whatever street drive? And he's like, yeah, that's how it happened. So Swank comes in pretty soon. Swank is, what's her character's name? Detective Ellie Burr. She's a cop nerd, like you said. I spent the whole movie trying to figure out who she reminds me of in this,

and then I realized it's Kimmy Schmidt. Sure, she's a little Kimmy Schmidt. There's this very earnest like, oh gee whiz, let's solve the murder. Well, right. And he's dispensing these really hacky aphorisms where it's like, hey, Mr. Meter, you know, it's the same as Murder One. You know, people make the same mistakes.

Like, where, like, I could be saying this. Like, it sounds like something an old detective might, like, think. It feels like Pacino wandered in from a shittier cop movie with shittier dialogue. And the rest of the movie is going like, wait a second, fucking take it down a notch. Dude, this movie definitely doesn't work quite as well if it doesn't have that like

tiny little B plot of her just being like, Oh, he's a little full of shit. Yeah. But then at the end being like, but I get it, you know, I get that there's shades of gray.

Right. Right. But it is like, he's the outsider in the town, which is good because now we can like find this place through his eyes. But it is like, he's the outsider in the town, which is good because now we can like find this place through his eyes. But then also like, she's the insider who knows this guy already. So like the outsider has some preexisting reputation.

So now there's just like two layers of what you can sort of latch onto. And it's a nice way to drop in, you know, your exposition. Cause the only scene that feels clunky to me is that when they check into the hotel. Yes. And Pacino and Donovan had that conversation where Donovan's like, so I guess I have to talk to IA.

And Pacino's like about the case. Like, you know, that scene made no sense. It seemed as bizarre. It was very weird. 20 minutes later, we were like,

wait, do we have to rewatch that? Because it's not being addressed, but they don't pay it off for like an hour. But then when it does pay off, it's like, oh, okay.

That's just right. Finally, you just waited to sort of fill us in on that. It's not that that was a bad job. It't pay it off for like an hour. But then when it does pay off, it's like, oh, okay, that's just like- Right, finally. You just waited to sort of fill us in on that. It's not that that was a bad job. It's that it didn't matter until now. It just has the one thing I really hate only because I really care about what actors- When people are about to eat in a movie,

I get excited for the food they're going to have. Yeah. And the thing where he's like, ah, lost my appetite. And he stands up and I'm like, no, you're definitely hungry. You were on a plane. Like, I start to feel hungry for Al Pacino. Well, look, I lost my appetite. And he stands up and I'm like, no, you're definitely hungry. You were on a plane. Like, I start to feel hungry for Al Pacino.

Well, look, I mean, if you love eating in movies, Pacino does the most active gum chewing I have ever seen. Especially in that one montage where he's trying to fall asleep. And he spits out the gum. That's like oozing through his teeth. Can I offer one thing about the gum? Because he mentions it later. He's talking to someone about it.

About how it keeps you awake. Yeah. Which then never comes back into the movie. But I was very excited for the gum to be what, and this is a term

I would love if people continue to use, to be what my wife and I call a blender as a character tick, which is named after Will Smith's blender in Enemy of the State,

where a character in a movie from like 96 onward has one inexplicable thing as a screen. It's like a screenwriting term that never caught on, but it's like, give him one thing. That's their thing. And I don't know if you remember enemy of the state. Well, yeah, there's like a scene where he talks about how much he loves his blender. There's a scene where he asks his kids not to touch his blender when the house is ransacked. The blender is destroyed or stolen.

I don't remember what. And he's like, I don't know how you take a man's blender. And then I believe later in the movie, he gets a new blender. And then after we watch that, we watch Murder at 1600, where Wesley Snipes is like, his blender that he's painting like a little model village in the basement. Like basically like a

train set. And we were just like, oh, this is his blender. And now ever since that day that we watched both of those movies on 4th of July three years ago, anything like that in a movie, it's like this is the blender. This is just like the extra thing that Pacino didn't have in the last cop movie, but now he chews

the gum, so now he has this one more character trait. And I was really excited to continue to track that, and it never comes back. No, it doesn't. Yeah, it's not like he then uses the gum to, like, you know, wedge a door together or something. No, it just gives him a lot of business to do in any scene where he's listening to someone. Maybe it's something he brought. Like, it's like how Brad Pitt's always eating a fucking sandwich in the Ocean's Eleven movies. Like, right, like, where he was just like, I had an idea where I'd chew gum.

One more thing, just, like, one extra thing. Right, Nolan's like, yeah, fine, chew gum. Like, I'm not going to fight you on that. So let me ask you a question. I want to ask about blender classifications. What would qualify as a blender? This is going right in the blank check lexicon. I mean, that is right there with flubber.

That's like my greatest contribution. Too much paprika on the sandwich. This is going into the term book. Will Smith in Iroba. Is that the converse? His converse. Loves those converse. Right.

Would you say that counts as a blender or because they later in the movie call out like, oh, he likes retro shit. Does that make it too clear to be a blender? I feel like to me, a blender can lift right out of the movie.

Right. Yeah, right. It's something that like can be added in on like the polish a week before shooting where it's just like, oh, we have an idea. This guy's always wearing Converse. We just need a specific.

Yeah, we just need like something that he's doing. I mean, somewhere in my mind, I have dozens of other examples. But it's just like, it's just whatever that is. Sure, sure. Yeah, so if you have any other questions about a specific example, I'll certainly do my best to see if I consider them blenders. But it's really in the eye of the beholder. We're going to do a Devil Wears Prada episode, right? With your sister? I think so. At some point? Yeah.

Because then I really, just remind me then to talk about, it has two of the most hurtful discarded meals in the history of movies, and that's another one that I really fixate on in terms of food not eaten. Yeah, just to address that.

We had like thrown out the joke idea of having whatever our siblings on an episode. And then people started asking for that on Twitter. And then my sister weighed in. Sure. So now at some point on the books, we're going to do a devil wears proud episode with my 19 year old sister. I assume.

And I want to do my brother too. I assume we'll do SWAT. It just seems like the movie that we would want to do the most because we've watched it together so many times. Yeah. But I'll ask him if he wants, if there's something else

he would think of. But SWAT to me just seems like the obvious. Anyway. I think I was going to say I like about Hilary Swank's character in this movie and how she functions

is that because she is such a big fan of his and has studied him so much, it gives the movie this reason for her to pay such close attention to everything he's doing without being suspicious. So there's this constant tension of her asking him, why did you do that?

What happened there? What's going on here? Without him feeling like he's under investigation. But he also knows he's not getting away with anything. Every detail is being picked up on by her. All right, so let's continue the movie. All right, so they're here, they're investigating this crime

pretty quickly. Why is it they go to? Is it because, oh, they find the bag. They find the bag. In this cabin. Right, they go through the items and then they go, here's what we should do. We should put the bag back. We should say, big reward for whoever brings us the bag, if anyone

knows where the bag is and he's like it'll drive this killer crazy because the body has been scrubbed he knows like this is someone who knows what he's doing

in terms of crime scenes or whatever and he has that one moment of doubt where he goes maybe we shouldn't do the bag I don't think that's a moment of doubt that's him fucking

that's him trolling Martin Donovan you think so? maybe we should do it by the books this time Donovan just right and he's like

oh I don't know I yeah, maybe it's a bad idea to, like, try and bait a criminal with some evidence. What do you think? And the guy's like, no, that sounds fine. You know, like, he's trying to be like, oh, I guess it sounds fine. Oh, I guess that's fine then. Let's do it. See, I read it as this moment of, like, it's performative doubt, but I think

there is genuine doubt in him. Because he is starting to question everything now. I mean, as we figure out later in the movie, the sense he has of like his past catching up with him, you know? Even if you're doing the wrong things for the right reasons. But they put the bag back there. Which is a little iffy.

The rationale behind going back to that place is a little confusing. It is. Most definitely. And this leads to this chase where they are kind of caught flat-footed because the guy they are chasing knows this whole terrain to this chase where they are kind of caught flat footed because the guy they are chasing knows this whole terrain really well, where they're going, you know, he has an escape route out of this cabin they don't know about. Right.

Pacino's chasing him through the fog. It's like shadowy figure. Oh, let's set up. At this point, they've interviewed Jonathan Jackson. High school boyfriend. High school boyfriend. That guy's a real good teenager. Randy Stets. He has a Pantera poster. He's boyfriend. That guy's a real good teenager. Randy Stets.

He has a Pantera poster. He's an asshole. He's a Pantera poster. He lights a cigarette during an interrogation with the LAPD. Yeah. I mean, like, he's got some balls for it, Alaskan. He's got some rude toot. Yeah, he's got a rude toot.

He's got a rude toot. But Pacino's kind of into it, I think. He loves fucking with it. Yeah, exactly. Because he gets to be, like, movie star cop with this kid, right? But this kid's just like such a fucking unqualified piece of shit where it's like, okay, he's physically abusive to her. Sure, right.

He's shitty to them. He's an obvious stool pigeon. Right. And you can tell they wish it was him, but it very quickly becomes clear it isn't. There's another guy. Pacino's like, this guy didn't do anything. This guy hasn't killed anyone, essentially, is what he's realizing.

So he starts mocking the guy for the fact that his girlfriend was sleeping with someone else, he presumes. Right. But they realize that's the sort of turning point. There's some other guy that she's been seeing. Because she has fancy gifts that obviously someone was buying. Pacino picks that dress up and he knows exactly what it cost. This is designer. This is designer. This is designer.

Yeah. The clip nails. He understands women's fashion in this movie. So they're on this foot chase and they think. Maybe we could do like a prequel to Insomnia that's about him on the case of like some fashion murder in like Malibu. What if it's a prequel? It's called like Malibu Nights. I don't know.

I was going to say it's a prequel to Insomnia, but also a sequel to Devil Wears Prada. Insomnia, Malibu. Like the Malibu's in like Pink Script. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, so they think they know like exactly the basic type of who this suspect is. The person who killed her is whoever this other older guy she was seeing was who bought these presents for her. So we're going to leave the bag there and this will show us this guy. Yeah, so there's this chase in the fog, which

I think we all agree is a very well executed set piece. And really like actually starts the plot of the movie. Because up until that point it's like a cold case murder. Like the murder happened long enough ago that there's nothing. It's not like long enough ago that these LA cops have flown all the way up. This is like the actual incident that like 40 minutes

into the movie or half an hour becomes the thing that the rest of the movie is actually about. Right. And Joanna was like, wait, he shot his, like, you know,

you realize like, oh, right, this is the actual plot. And at this point, he's had one night where he didn't sleep very well. You know, he goes, why don't we go to school

and tarry at the guy that go, it's 10. 10.30. No, let's go. I don't even think he says, I know he's just like, yeah. Yeah.

He's good. He's super excited. He's good. He's really good in those scenes because he's right. know he's just like yeah he's good he's super excited he's good he's really good in those scenes does he say you got it when they say it's 10

he says some very casual you got it it's 10 and that's a good way to set that up up until that point that element

hasn't really been announced either it hasn't been like when they're landing they're like you know it's always day here they wait until they're already in it to be like, oh, the sun never sets.

The original does that literally. The plane lands and in the car ride, they're like, it's so weird that it's always day here. That's a good move. Yeah. Moving it a little bit later. A hundred percent. Because at first you just think, okay, this is daytime investigation. He's had one night.

No, no. It's a nice little twist. You've had one night where he doesn't sleep very well, but he's a cop. He's missed sleep some nights. So that's not really an issue yet. Okay. And then in the fog, he fires his gun. And he fires his gun.

Now, the figure he's chasing is fired at them. So he has reason, I think, to be alarmed. Shoots another cop in the leg, right? Yeah. Shoots another cop in the leg. Right. One of the sort of Twin Peaks cops. He's like, oh, I don't know, BG.

I've never seen a murder before. And then, yeah, he shoots his partner, Martin Donovan. Hap. Hap. And has enough of, Martin Donovan takes long enough to die to be angry at Al Pacino

and suspicious that he shot him for a reason. Martin Donovan gives good death in this movie. A nice little death. Very good death. But he's starting to realize, did you mean to do that? Why do you do that, Hap? Why do you do, or Dormer, why do you do it? He's starting to question if Dormer was trying to silence

him. And Dormer's very, nope, nope, no, I thought it was him, I thought it was him. Dies in his arms. And also, like, the audience, you don't really know that it's not him. It's not like the audience has any clue who this is. You're on Will's side, I would say, right? A hundred percent. It's more like by the end of the movie where he says like,

I don't even know if I meant to. Yeah. I feel like we still basically know, but we just understand why he's. It's a great touch on that. I feel like a lesser movie would keep him alive and kind of have him like really try to tighten the noose on Pacino. Right.

And also a lesser movie would like a hundred% make Hillary swank his new partner. Yes. Whereas in fact, she's sort of just like is also on the force. Because she's now assigned to the case to figure out. There's these sort of murmurs that like, you know, that she, from her, that like she's sort of treated as the junior cop. Yeah, she's on the new case. She only does misdemeanors.

She's on the new case, which is the shooting. She gets put on the foggy shooting. But it's like Paul Dooley's like, just write it up the shooting. She gets put on the foggy shooting but it's like Paul Dooley's like just write it up doesn't have to be Shakespeare or whatever where you're like

you know he doesn't really want her to. And there's that great moment I love in the scene where they're all having beers after they think they've solved the case and Nicky Cat makes

the like hey what has two thumbs and loves blowjobs this guy and everyone laughs and then you see him just nudge her out of frame and he goes like

hey sorry. Like she's not even in the shot for the reaction. Yeah, no, yeah, for sure. And just like, she's with all these guys who are making fun of her all the time. I didn't know the two thumbs gag went back this far. I don't think I heard it before. I must have heard it when I saw this movie, but then I don't know if I heard it again until 2007 or 8. This guy.

I feel like the first time I ever heard it, there's some movie where someone applies it to taking a shit. Okay. Where they go, what is two thumbs and just took a stinky shit? I feel like the first time I ever heard it there's some movie where someone applies it to taking a shit okay where they go what is two thumbs and just took a stinky shit this guy great thank you for that and but no yeah so she's on the shooting case it was in the king speech that's the one

I was trying to remember what it was Tom Hooper loves doing the this guy joke did he make no the last movie he made was The Danish Girl, right? Correct. He doesn't have a new movie. Anyway. I don't know why I just thought. Oh, he directed Cars 3. That's what it is. Tom Hooper directed Cars 3.

So Tom Hooper doesn't matter. So yeah. So Pacino is still on, you know on the hunt for this guy who is now being charged with two murders, essentially. Also, first, he sort of confesses that he killed Hap to Paul Dooley. Right. And he's like, don't worry about it.

Yeah. And then when Hilary Swank comes in, he's like, just give this guy an extra couple of volts to fry with. Yeah. Because he killed this cop now as well. Yeah. And it's really not clear. I mean, that seems,

I guess like their old friendship, but it is sort of an interesting. Julie just doesn't press him on it at all. He confesses it basically right away. He's like, I accidentally shot him. I almost take it as Julie doesn't even process it. Like it's like,

he hears what he wants to hear. Yeah. Cause he's basically saying it's my fault. And Julie's like, eh, don't worry about it. I mean, I just like,

we should just, I mean, cause yeah, cause Swank is not really doing a, it's don't worry about it. I mean, I just like, we should just, I mean, because, yeah, because Swank is not really doing a lot. It's just little bits of investigation. But the moment where she just comes to Will and she's like, anyway, here's the case. You know, we figured that guy did it.

Could he just sign? And he like has the chance to exonerate himself. Yeah. And he wants her to find him guilty. He's like, no, you really want to, you know, don't just put your, you know, spit shine on it. You really want to like dig into this case put your you know spit shine on it you really want to like dig into this case every case matters or whatever right like i think that's yeah also a

good scene when he calls the guy's wife and he's like hey good scene he's gone because it's not too silly there's a lot of talking on the phone in this movie there's a lot of like long phone calls where you can't really hear the person on the other end yeah and like you can tell like because the daughter answers, he knows who the daughter is, he knows the wife by her first name, you know.

Right. These are like real people to him. Because at first when the scene starts I thought, oh, he's calling his wife and kids. Which then kind of underlines like,

oh, this guy might not have anybody. Like he might be this weird swaggering LA cop who just like goes home alone. Yeah, right. There's all the other phone business with what turns out

to be Robin Williams. There's a lot of Pacino talking on the phone in this movie. And good talking on the phone because it's like him being like, oh yeah, you know, like having to sort of

answer noncommittally in public on the phone to this guy who's like, I saw you kill your partner. And in like super tight oners. Like it's playing out in full pretty much. So yeah, so right. But that's the thing.

He quickly figures out pretty much right after this like, oh she has these crime novels. Right. This guy's a local. He interrogates her best friend. He interrogates her best friend. That's one of the only times he goes a little more full Pacino.

He's like, a pile of garbage! He loves talking about A pile of garbage! Yes! Trash! He loves talking about the pile of garbage. And he also drives in front of a moving truck. Yeah, he does to fuck with her. Just to freak her out. I'd say letting Pacino stand next to a pile of garbage is a really bad choice as a director

because it's essentially a pile of props for him to do business with. Garbage! He wears a hat. She's a good team too. Both of these things are good because they are obviously traumatized, but they are reacting by being annoying teenagers rather than like, you know,

sobbing and wailing or what, right? Like, you know, she's an asshole. He goes to the memorial service. He sees the shitty boyfriend, put his arm around the best friend and realizes the two of them are sleeping together. Sure.

And she's like, yeah, but she had her, you know, Finchie. Yeah, who cares? I mean, whatever the character she hated him. Yeah. She says like, I don't know who he was. She'd never told me his real name. And then somehow he just intuits. What's the nickname? There was it's like either maybe the

mysteries are called by whatever name she used. I forget. It's like, you know, that's what it is. It's like either maybe the mysteries are called by whatever name she used. I forget. It's like, you know. That's what it is. It's the character, the lead character in his mystery series has the same last name as the nickname. Right. That's whatever his name is. Nobby or whatever.

And he goes to the box. He finds out who it is. So he essentially solves the murder there. Like 45 minutes into the movie. Right. Now, Robin Williams speaks his first lines 47 minutes into the movie He appears on screen 58 minutes in which two-hour rules. Yeah, it's good So right he calls him at the hotel and is saying like oh, yeah, it's her sucks up here

You know hard to go to sleep. You put your clock in the drawer. I like that. He put his clock in the drawer. Yeah And then he calls him again Before they've met right he calls him again before they've met. Right. He calls him twice before they meet twice. And at the same time, Pacino is doing his little business where he gets the other gun and he shoots the dead dog. Right.

And digs the bullet out. Yeah. He's like a lot of shoe leather on the forensics and the ballistics report. He's like working hard to fabricate it. And the dog thing is introduced earlier. We see that. He's seen this dead dog. Yeah. But I do like that. Yeah. He's like working hard to fabricate it. And the dog thing is introduced earlier. We see that. He's seen this dead dog.

Yeah. But I do like that. Yeah. The shoe leather, because like, there's that thing where he says to the mortician, like, did you recognize what kind of bullet and she is,

it is. And she was just like, I don't know, a small one. Like we never see those here. You know, everyone just has rifles. It's like,

because he's, so she doesn't know like the difference between a 38 and a 45 on site or whatever. But like it's very complex, but it tracks perfectly. Like he's chasing during this shootout. His gun stops working or runs out of bullets. Right. Pulls another gun out.

Right. That's what he kills his partner with. Yeah, his like backup. Then they pull that bullet out, which obviously is a special gun that only he has. Right. Special cop gun. So then later he sort of like backtracks.

But he also finds this old revolver. He does find the other gun. So then he's trying to like just make it seem like this mystery gun that they found. It's good. It like all works perfectly. No, it's nice. Shooting it into a dog and then cutting it out is a very strange way to go about getting a discharged bullet. But he does it and then he just has it in his pocket until the final scene of the movie.

What's this thing I love? The counterpoint between the two characters is that like Pacino is such a good detective, he knows exactly what any other detective would look for, so he's able to, like, cover his tracks and, like, fake it really well and be comprehensive. And Robin Williams, because he's, like, this shitty middling crime novelist, thinks that he has the same level of mind for this kind of thing. That's the best thing about it to me. Love it. Is that Robin Williams is coming into this being like, this is a cat and mouse, you know, his character. Right, he thinks he's got this one of thing. That's the best thing about it to me. Love it. Is that Robin Williams is coming into this being like, this is a cat and mouse, you know,

his character. Right, he thinks he's got this one figured out. Right, exactly. Like, I understand cops.

I know what cops are like because I saw a cop when I was a kid and he was wearing a nice uniform. So now I love cops. And the thing that irks Pacino most

is anytime Robin Williams tries to imply that they're the same type of guy, whether it's because they have the same understanding of crime. He's trying to do, like, heat, right? Like, ah, we're not so different, you and I. Right, like same type of guy, whether it's because they have the same understanding. He's trying to do like heat.

We're not so different. You and I like, he's saying like, it's finally the two greats have come head to head. And, but you keep going like you suck. That's where the line that you read earlier. Yeah.

Like a clogged toilet. Yeah. On the ferry. So he like tries to, you sort of get the sense that he's like planning on planting this gun that he now has like implicated. Right. or something. He, again, he not only solves the crime, he solves his own cover up an hour into the movie.

So then there's the great chase where Robin Williams comes home right when he's there. Yes, and then he chases him and that's the log. And it is cool the first time you see Robin Williams' face in the movie. He doesn't talk. Aside from there's the photo that he finds, and you've got this clear shot of what just looks like Robin Williams in hook or whatever. It's like him smiling in front of a river. And then there's the moment where Pacino's in the apartment. He hears the sound outside the door, and then just cuts to the shot of Robin Williams knowing that Pacino's there.

And it's like I feel like the way this movie deals with Robin Williams, both the character and also casting that huge of an actor as the killer, is like the opposite of what they do with Spacey in Seven. Where like Spacey famously said, like, don't want to be in the poster. Don't want to be in the trailer. I just won an Oscar. If they know I'm in the movie, they're going to know I'm the killer. So when he comes in an hour later, like the movie kind of like flips and you have no idea what's going on. And this movie, it's like the ad campaign was like flips and you have no idea what's going on. And this movie,

it's like the ad campaign was like Robin Williams versus Pacino. Yeah, for sure. His face is all over it. A lot of his dialogue is in the trailer. You know that Robin Williams is going to be the killer. There's no mystery there.

No, not really. But the movie also doesn't, I mean, because it resolves it like at the 55 minute mark, the movie doesn't claim there is, which is neat. And also, yeah, direct descendant of Seven.

Yes. Like there's your voice on the phone the like all of that he thinks he's that cat and mouse yeah but that that's the function i love is that but he's not he had a crush on this girl right he's a pathetic kind of guy like in a way and he beat her up because she laughed at him because she right obviously knew he was a creep but but he you know the the thing i love is that by the time he enters into the movie, you're going like, wait, so what is Robin Williams going to do in this movie? If it's an hour in, they've solved the case. Then, like, he has to have a substantial part.

And it's that he has backed him into this corner, hitting on all of Pacino's insecurities. I mean, A, obviously being a witness to the murder, but also making Pacino question his own sense of morality by how frequently he keeps on going, you know, it's the same thing, you murder someone in a second, you know? Yeah, right. I mean, the distinction Pacino keeps making is that... Pacino keeps saying, like, yeah, you know,

you took 10 minutes to kill her, like, this was a real, like, thought-through process for you. She's a lonely teenage girl. She reads these novels. She sees he lives in the town. She reaches out to him. He becomes a mentor figure to her. It's very clear that he was sexually attracted to her but didn't act upon it.

And then this one time he tries to kiss her she laughs and he beats her to death. And he goes it's like so bizarre how in one instance someone you know life which is the most precious thing is also so fragile. And Pacino keeps on saying like it took 10 minutes. Like this wasn't some like spur of the so fragile and Pacino keeps on saying like it took 10 minutes like this wasn't some

like spur of the moment mistake but Williams keeps on claiming like it was a mistake I didn't know I was killing her I wasn't trying to kill her so why don't like bygones be bygones we both killed people by accident.

This is a great this is on the boat right? Yeah. This is their ferry conversation. It's like a three minute shot of the two of them. It's gotta be maybe even longer than three minutes.

And then it cuts to yeah cause it starts out with like shot reverse shot of them sitting on the bench and then when it goes to them on the pole, it's a three minute shot and the only time they cut away

from it is once to show the water like their POV of the boat. Right. It's really, and then like, now the movie's about, now it's just like,

we both killed these people and I have this tape recording of our conversation. Right. You're going to like, help me get away with this or else I'm going to like. And William's point which is good is just like

this boyfriend fucking sucks. You know he's a shitty guy. He was beating her. Yeah. William's thing is like who cares if we pin it on this guy because he deserves to go to jail anyway and he could kill someone. If you heard the things that I heard about him from her. That boat stuff is great. That boat stuff is really like a simple killer

like midpoint of the movie sort of like switching where. Because at this point. It's a total pivot. You're like a simple killer, like midpoint of the movie, sort of like switching where the, because at this point, it's a total pivot. You're like, I have no idea what the rest of this movie is going to be like. This guy's confessed. Right.

It's true. The cop knows it all. He's already planning evidence to like bust him. And what, like you just don't know what happens next. It's pretty neat. The rest of the movie is just his deterioration, right?

Because you've got that scene where he tries to plant the gun, where he does plant the gun at Williams's house. Right. Then he goes to get it after their interrogation scene yes and like that's him like melting down right like right where it's like why are you what are you even what's what's even the goal at this point what are you trying to do uh and williams is fucking incredible in this movie it's a great performance i think it's probably my favorite like dramatic performance of his and it was in his serious year.

We shouldn't go too deep. But he had done his 90s thing had run out so badly on him with Patch Adams and Bicentennial Man. I think people were so sick of it. He closed out the decade. Saccharine Williams, Jacob the Liar. Those are all end-of-the-century movies. So he doesn't do anything except The Voice and AI for three years.

And then this year he has One Hour Photo, Death to Smoochie, and Insomnia. And I think One Hour Photo is an okay movie. I haven't seen it since it came out. Death to Smoochie is a masterpiece. I have never seen Death to Smoochie. It's a masterpiece. But One Hour Photo is really leading with

Robin Williams is a creep, right? It's like a very manicured very sort of strange and unsettling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think a fundamental difference between that Williams performance, which I think is very good, and this one, is in that one they were like,

what if you took away everything audiences like about Robin Williams? Sure, right, right. So he's this weird, creepy, unnerving husk of a man. And he looks weird. We dye his hair. We give him weird contacts. He looks like a weirdo. This movie.

Child molester glasses. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This movie Robin Williams uses all the Robin Williams tricks. Like he's not doing the

riffing but the thing that I love so much about those scenes on the boat. His voice man. Like he's got a great voice. They make it look like him. So he never did any animated movies.

Yeah. He would have been so good in a cartoon. Yeah. I know you're right. I didn't even put that together. Yeah. He's really sad looking been so good in a cartoon. Yeah, I know, you're right. He didn't even put that together. He's really sad

looking in this movie. Very sad. But he also, his character smiles a lot when he's talking and they don't play it as this like, this Richard T. Joker thing where it's like sadistic that he's smiling. They play it as like he thinks he's a lot more charming than he is. Right.

But also you're in this tiny town where you can imagine how he would inflate his opinion of himself. This character thinks he's Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society. Like he thinks he's this very genial kind of like kind. And he keeps on reasserting that the relationship he had with the girl wasn't sexual. He calls her- he calls himself her mentor during the interrogation scene where they do bring him in. I thought it was kind of like the master where it's just like actually two great actors just across the desk from each other for minutes on end. Yeah.

And you're just like, well, this is kind of great. And you're watching Pacino because, I mean, I think what Nolan knows that you want from that scene is like, okay, here's Pacino's going to deconstruct him. Like this will be the scene where Pacino just destroys this guy. We have two great actors. The movie has told you exactly what's going on with both of them. And now here's a scene where both of them have to play people pretending to be different people.

And they both have these very specific agendas. Like, Williams is trying to pin the crime on the teenager on, what's his name? And Pacino's trying to catch him in a lie. And, of course, halfway through, Williams is revealing, like, I know that you planted a gun in my house, you know, like, so there's that. But, like, I love, yeah, you see Pacino, he's he's like well what if I try this approach he does that for five seconds

he's like maybe not then he tries a new thing like it's it's it's it is a nice set piece it's probably the best set piece of the movie yeah in a weird like in a sort of in terms of them matching with it's like exactly what the Joker Batman interrogation later is to me yeah so watching that I was like oh this just feels feels like he figured out how to put two gigantic characters in a room and just be like, this is cinema. And it's the same thing in The Dark Knight where you're like, Batman's gonna deal with

this. And again, a minute in, Batman's realizing, like, shit, I don't actually have the way to figure this guy out. Like, I can't deconstruct the Joker. It is pretty fascinating to me that, like, you saying the thing about putting two guys in a room, making it feel epic. It struck me while watching this. Like, that really is kind of what Nolan's best at is, like, he's better at filming two people in a room than anyone else.

He's good at it. Just in terms of casting the right actors, writing the right scenes, putting them in there, how to shoot it, you know, using the environment, all of that. He makes conversations feel very ominous or exciting or unnerving or like these epic philosophical debates or whatever they are. The detail I love in that scene is that on the boat, Williams is pitching him like, so here's what I'm going to do in the interrogation. And Pacino's like, you're overriding it. Yeah, this is too much. The cops are not going to buy this because it's too simple. Too much paprika on the sandwich.

Too much paprika. Right. So he says, like, I'll pin it on the boyfriend. And he goes, you don't have to mention the boyfriend. Leave the boyfriend out of this. Yeah, they'll get to the boyfriend. They're not going to ask you. Don't give him anything you don't have to.

But then it works. And Pacino's, he's like Salieri. He's like, fuck, they actually do like the boyfriend. Williams throws the boyfriend out there. He starts like Salieri. He's like, fuck, they actually do like the boyfriend. Williams throws the boyfriend out there. He starts improvising. Mickey Cat's like, boyfriend, you know, the gun. That's definitely it.

And then you see Williams get cocky. Like, he's like, well, maybe we are at the same level. Maybe we're both masters of crime. Right. And then it becomes this, like, dick measuring contest between Williams and Pacino where Pacino starts really laying into the sexuality of the relationship. Yeah, that's where he's right. Which for him... You're pathetic. He's playing his final card. He's just trying to embarrass him. Let me embarrass you in front of these people. He has that line on the boat where he says, did you ever touch

her? And he goes, no. And he goes, but now you wish you did. Right, right, right. I like in the interrogation when he's like, was she pretty? He's like, she was 17. He's like, was she pretty? She was pretty, come on. It's right. I mean, it's almost in heat when he's like, big pretty yeah she was pretty come on yeah it's it's right i mean it's almost in heat when he's a big ass but it's not you know i mean and you see swank's kind of watching the scene being like this feels like i know that's a little swank's definitely like right this is loaded

in a way i don't understand where's nicky cat's like hey the teenager mentioned the teenager let's go get the teenager but you know hillary swank leans over to nicky cat and goes like doesn't this kind of feel like the interrogation scene from Dark Knight? What's going on here? This like, from this part up through,

This movie's set in 2012. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This part up through where she sort of pieces it together, which is pretty soon thereafter. Yeah, no, I mean, there's not much of the movie left.

This scene sets her home to review her book report on him. Exactly. But like, this is where I'm sort of, like when you finally go into her house or work, maybe that's her office. it's neat that the movie doesn't give her an internal life no because like she doesn't need one but you also i mean it could benefit from her having like

a husband and a kid or like yeah or the opposite of that some depressing apartment that she never lives in but her sort of like function in the movie becomes very clear at this point yeah where it like it wouldn't have mattered if she had a husband what matters is that like she just sort of sits back and pieces this together she is the sort of moral force in the movie like there's this question that gets brought up about this gun that sets her off which i thought was like a good callback to the business with the dog and the bullet yeah and you realize right and there's that scene where she's arranging her co-workers to try and exactly restage the crime scene

and they're all like, God, why do we have to do that? And she's like, no, on your side. She also earlier, not having been mentioned yet, was like, hey, I looked at like

the ballistics of that, yeah, what you're talking about where they're putting everyone on the ground. And it makes no sense that you were here. She's like, the shot came from that direction.

This doesn't really work. And he's like, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, I guess I misremembered. There's only two more scenes that we need to talk about. I'm just trying to, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, I guess I misremembered. There's only two more scenes that we need to talk about. I'm just trying to, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One is the thing where Pacino finally is like, you know what? I need to talk to Maura Tierney and like just lay out my immoral action as a police officer. You know, like the thing I'm in trouble for. Because at this point she's been good, but you're why cast more tyranny in this role sure there's that opening scene at the hotel when she kind of makes a nice impression then there's the next day back when she kind of says

that thing about it's weird he was standing here 24 hours ago she was like he liked you yeah I hope I was nice to him right and then this scene where he's freaking out and taping seat cushions to the window this scene was very much the trailer. I remember this scene

being in the trailer quite a bit. Yes. So, and he talks to her about, right, like, I framed a guy I knew was guilty. I gotta complain about too much noise. And he's like, Los Angeles, 1999.

He says it's too light in here. And she goes, it's really dark in here. Right, and she turns on the light. That's a nice little trick. Love it. Yeah, and suddenly you're like, ugh.

Right. Remember that, Ben? He's looking at me yeah he remembers but he gives the speech that's that's the opening credit sequence those close-up macro shots of the blood on which we've been seeing the whole time that shot of the blood spreading on the on the cuff extreme insert shots were very popular at this point in time yeah like that yeah that. Yeah. That's another Seven technique. I feel like Seven does a lot of that. Seven pretty much invented that. Requiem for a Dream, I think, perfected the art form. But he does it a lot in Memento. That thing where he's having the memories of his wife's attack

is presented as those little flashes at first. There's a moment I love in this when he's on the phone with Hap's wife. Do you like my representation of the flashes, by the way? For the listener, David is flashing his fingers toward my face. I dare say that the rise in those flash blips came from switching editing from editing flat

on a steam back to editing. People were like, we can just put in a three frame shot. Much easier to just copy paste a thing. It's like, oh wow, really? Three frames? We should do that all the time. Yeah, exactly. There's that moment when he's on the phone with Hap's wife and she said, like, did he suffer? And there's the quick three second flash of

Hap in his arms, like, crying with the blood pouring out of his mouth. Oh, and Hap, by the way, I wrote down the scar on his face looks exactly like the Joker's scar. When Hap is lying there on the ground, it's only on one side. I don't know if that's where he's meant to have been shot or he scratched his face while running, but it is a scar from his mouth almost all the way to his ear.

So maybe we do know how you got those scars, Richard T. Joker. This is a callback to our following episode, Alex. It's not a callback. I'm just referencing a character that's in one of these movies, Richard T. Joker. And then there is the final chase, I guess. Not even chase.

No, there's a bit of a chase. What was the confession, the Pacino confession to Murr Tierney? Well, right, no, yeah. Oh, yeah, sure. We weren't done with that. He framed a guy who was fucking and then murdered a small child brutally. Yeah, it's like some horrible story where he hung the

child and hung, you know, the hanging didn't even work and he died of shock. He knew the guy was guilty, but the case didn't, they didn't find the piece of evidence they needed. He tampered with the evidence. He put the blood on it. He's got that Lady Macbeth sort of stain on his cuff that he can't get out.

Did I reference the Scotland PA? That's what it was. Or she plays Lady PA? It was. This is in the Scotland. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Maura Tierney kind of says like, well, I'm no one to judge the line about Alaska.

You know, I clearly ran away. And that's the thing, right? Like he's in purgatory. And she's like, I get it. Look, I'm the hotel manager of purgatory. Retroactively, it's like, oh, that's what they were talking about Alaska. You know, I clearly ran away. And that's the thing, right? Like, he's in purgatory. And she's like, I get it. Look, I'm the hotel manager of purgatory. Retroactively, it's like, oh, that's what they were talking about earlier. Like, had he testified,

this guy who's definitely guilty would have been set free. Pacino's been living with that. I guess that sort of pays off the conversation when they first arrived. Yeah, because when he says the name of whoever this guy is, he's like, what about that guy?

And Donovan's like, no, he won't get out. Don't worry about it. And Pacino knows that he will. Well, it gets into a little bit of overlap. I think the idea is that Donovan doesn't know that Pacino did this, but Pacino just knows if they dig, they'll figure it out. For me, it's much like David Dobkins, the judge. Oh, yeah, great, great.

The titular judge's big concern is that if people know that he's senile, then all his cases will be reviewed. Pacino cares a lot about legacy because he doesn't seem to have a home life. His thing is that he's a great cop and that people look up to him. He knows that this case is the one that's going to crumble. But the big fear, and this is the thing that Williams says to him,

is like, if they know you shot your partner, all your guys are going to be let out. Yeah, no, for sure. And also, much like the judge fears that he will poop his pants in a bathtub. Correct. It's true. I mean, look, who has two thumbs and poops himself in a bathtub?

I'm pointing to Robert Duvall right now. The final set piece is Hillary Swank going to Robin Williams' cabin. Correct. Now, why does he want her? Is it just because he notices that she's seen the dress? Is that why he hits her? Correct.

That's what it is, right? But he calls her and invites her. Yeah, because he's going to give her the letters that the murder victim sent him. Right. Which are printed on rainbow stationery. Yeah, they're on Lisa Frank stationery. Yeah.

But then she sees the girl's dress, which he's capped because he's a creep of creeperzoid. Did I misread this? The implication that he wrote the letters to kind of help up his case? I don't know. I didn't put that together. It seems like there's something off about the letters. Yeah, right. With the letters like, I just hate my boyfriend so much.

He has a gun. There's that moment in the interrogation where he brings up the letters that say all these incriminating sort of things towards the boyfriend. Right. And she goes like, do you have those letters? Or Pacino goes, do you have those letters?

And he kind of like stares him down and goes, yes, I do. Right. Which feels like, okay, here's this hack writer. He's going to buy some Lisa Frank stationery and,

you know, practice his cursive or whatever. Right. Then this final part is like 90% silence of the lambs feeling. It gets very silence. It is. Um, but it's also kind of not in doubt.

Like you know what's going to happen, which is they're going to shoot each other. But also he's getting Pacino's driving and he's like falling. He's so tired. He swerves off the road. So fucking tired. He's beaten Williams' because there's been a scene before where he says to Robin Williams like

I'm going to just confess like fuck all of this so they shoot each other while Robin Williams is death is phenomenal the tip into the water and then the like first there's that kind of badass moment where like you know Swank doesn't have her gun anymore Pacino checks he's like I got seven rounds

make them count yeah yeah and he realizes the floorboards are really unstable he goes down and so he kicks through and he treks through the water to sneak attack Robin Williams they shoot each other

at the same time Robin Williams is like stunned because oh he has that moment where he goes wild card he keeps on saying this thing

the wild card like it's some fucking screenwriting trick you know oh I got the tape report you didn't think about this

I got the hidden gun I'm gonna get the upper hand on you and right when he's saying wild card, Pacino shoots him. I mean, isn't the idea basically like on a good day, Pacino would have this guy signed, sealed, and delivered. No problem. He's just tired. So he's like 40%.

And that's why Robin Williams can't get a couple over on him. And also this guy's making him doubt himself. Yeah, for sure. It's a movie about confidence. And also he killed, right. There's a crisis about confidence. And also he killed, right, confidence. There's a crisis of confidence. He killed Hap, so he's right. He has a moral crisis as well as a tiredness crisis.

And what he's saying to more tyranny in that scene about the tampered evidence is like, I just had a feeling someday it was going to catch up with me. This movie would be hacky and bad with a different director. There's no question. Yeah, One thing I

wrote down, I just wrote down apropos of nothing, right? I just wrote down Bone Collector. From this like era of like serial killer dramas that were like 30 to 50 million dollar movies. The seven rip-offs basically. This is almost 10 years after, coming up on

a decade of seven. Younger female protege. Yeah, with like Kiss the Girls or Along Came a Spider as well. Taking Lives. Taking Lives. There's just like a huge amount of. Taking Lives. I wrote Bone Collector and Taking Lives. I just wrote down with no commentary.

But there's just like a lot. This kind of movie was very easy. And everyone in the marketing said the best thriller of its kind since Seven or Silence of the Lambs. Right, right, right. And then within five years, this has just migrated to television. It's true. I mean, that's the thing. And that's where it will stay for a while.

With anyone other than him, this could have been a long came a spider. Because I don't think the screenplay is fantastic. I don't think it's terrible or anything. It's not like the dialogue like really crackles. Like, it's like, it's all fine. Although, I mean, and who knows how much

of this was in the script or how much of this was added by Nolan in the uncredited rewrite. But the original has a lot less of these sort of character connections.

Yeah. These sort of thematic concerns. There isn't the investigation in the original Insomnia. There's not the same sense of a past history catching up with him. It really is just

the fact that he killed his partner by accident. Sure. And the relationship is different. That guy's older. He's not as disgraced. The Hilary Swank character

isn't someone who idolizes him. She's just a cop working a case. And this movie really kind of tightens everything and makes everything really kind of on theme. I like at the end where she's sort of put together

this thing about his extra gun. She gives him a hug to see if he still has it, feels the gun. Yes, that's right. And she sort of knows that he did it. And right, when he's dying. That's already happened when they go to Williams' house. Right, when he's dying, she's saying,

like, look, I get it. Like, you didn't mean to do it. She has put it all together, and he's like, just let it stand. I'm going to throw it away. He's like, don't do that. It's a bad idea. Don't lose your way. And then he doesn't say, tired, baby, tired.

That's what he says in Carlito's way. He says, let me sleep, I think. But also, like, you just feel, you're like, yeah, Jesus, go to sleep, man. It's good. It's also a great end of story, end of movie. Yeah. Movie.

Yeah. Just directed by Chris. I was so nervous that when that scene faded out that it was going to be like her and Nikki cat. Right. Right. Right. You know,

like, Oh, whatever happened with the, and it's just, it's like a great thing that it just ends and then it ends. And in the original, uh, he doesn't die.

Uh, Oh really? The Hillary Swank character kind of calls his bluff and lets him get away with it. And he drives away. Interesting. Oh, really? The Hilary Swank character kind of calls his bluff and lets him get away with it and he drives away. Interesting. I like this ending better. Especially with the whole movie where he's trying to fucking go to sleep. It's like Bridge of Spies. Let him sleep.

Yeah, you promise one thing the whole time. It's Chekhov's nap. Let's play the box office game. Ben has something he wants to say. It's a good wet death. It's a wet movie. Wet movie. It is.

It's very wet and I like wet movies but I would say this is like up there is a wet death. Robin Williams gets shot and then

takes a bath. Takes a little swim. I think that death is really effective. It's good. He holds on it for a really long time. That's like a very like

He goes under and then he floats up a little bit. Yeah, you're getting floating. Ah, it's got all the things I like. Benny. Good boy. Now play the box office game. Before you do, can I just read a few? Oh, please.

I love this game and I'm excited. It's a good week. A few other notes that are noted. One is that this movie I think is a great case for helicopter shots being far superior to drone shots. Yeah. Oh yeah. The endless amount of shots of the aerial views of this place are really beautiful

and obviously drone shots would just look cheap and flimsy in a way that this movie doesn't. And big thing Nolan and Pfister like really committed to on this movie, they don't do second unit on anything. Oh really? So any sort of establishing shots, they shot that themselves. And you can tell that there's meaning behind those helicopter shots.

They're not just like, get an overhead. Yeah, they're really nice and elegant. Small point. Two, as I mentioned earlier, I like that this kind of parallel to Jackie Brown is like, you have this thing that's a breakout in one way or another, and then you do the only, I mean, obviously Batman's pre-existing, but those are original stories. then you do the only I mean obviously Batman is pre-existing but those are original stories like then you do the like remake or adaptation of a crime

movie it's an interesting thing as opposed to the fountain where you're like it's all me like the other version the other version of that is like after Pulp Fiction is like four and a half hour long samurai movie would be him doing Kill Bill right away instead it's like from the writer of Get Shorty away. Yeah he said it's like from the writer of

Get Shorty comes my next movie. It's also like a very kind of auteurist thing to do where you like okay start out with your fully original

like thing. Yeah your smaller thing. Right and then you're like let me take someone else's material. Let me flex my muscles. Let me show you how much my style

is like built into my veins. And work with some legends. Like let me get in some big actors like it's not going to be their greatest performances ever but it's going to be a memorable little like.

It's like a solid decision that doesn't exist anymore because movies like this. Right. Like now after Memento he would get the job directing a pilot of whatever this version is now.

Yeah. Right. He would do that. He'd knock that out and then he'd go make Batman or whatever. But back in 97. Except it wouldn't be Batman.

Now it would be like you know the Atom or whatever because they'd be digging through like, what do we got? He'd be making the Lobo movie. Exactly.

In 97, you could go throw me an Elmore Leonard. Right. They'd throw you a paperback. I like the trajectory of this in the career. The other thing...

It'd be nice if everyone could do an Elmore Leonard. It'd be great. Everyone should do one Elmore Leonard. There's so many of them. There's an Elmore Leonard series and anthology

a couple years ago and there's some dreadful movies in it. That's true. So I think that ran its course. Yeah. Cir should do one. And there's an Elmore Leonard series and anthology a couple years ago and there's some dreadful movies in it. That's true. So I think that ran its, I think that ran its course circa be cool. Yeah. But, uh,

the big bounce and be cool really killed. Oh yeah. But the other real, I mean, we haven't talked about Hillary Swank, but like what a strange, crazy trajectory. Like she's like 32 in this movie and no,

no, she's 32 when she wins her second Oscar. She's 28 in this movie. I looked it up. Because she wins Boys Don't Cry 25. That's right. She's 28. She was born in 74. So by the time she's like 32, she has two Oscars.

This movie is like a great sort of like step away from that where it's like in a supporting cast. You have to work with Pacino. And then like a year later, two years later, Million Dollar Baby. Two years later. Anyway, the only thing I did look up last night, I was like, what is the deal with Hilary Swank's complete career? Because this movie raises a lot of questions because she's so interesting and good all the time. Yeah, she is. And then, like, just has not done a lot.

They didn't know how to use her in between the two Oscars. I mean, it was this weird, like, there's a Fair of the Necklace where it was like, maybe. Fair of the Necklace, which is them trying to cast her as more of a traditional romantic lead in like a costume drama that flops. It's a bad movie. She's in The Gift, but that's a very small role. It's a small role. It's a good movie, I think. Yeah, I like The Gift. The Gift's a good movie. And then after this, she does The Core, which is

I guess like, hey, well, let's put you in a big blockbuster. That's a terrible movie. I mean, that's not on anybody. No favors. And then after that, Million Dollar Baby, so she wins,. I mean, that's not on anybody. No favors. And then after that, Million Dollar Baby. So she wins, but I really think that win was so bad for her career. But she's like 32 or 30, not even 33 now, right? She's like. She was 32 when she won the second one.

Yeah, she is. Right, yeah. Because she's now in her 40s. But she got stuck in like another land because she's a very good actress, but she's like not a movie star. Like there's not like when they tried to put her in blockbusters or romantic comedies, there wasn't like a personality there that kind of translated across it.

Yeah, she's a femme fatale in The Black Dahlia. Which doesn't fit. She's like not an ingenue. She's not really. She's an inspirational teacher in Freedom Writers, which was sort of like not a bad idea, but I think the moment had passed for those kinds of movies.

And it's a bad movie. I mean, she gets a lot of bad scripts. I mean, she's in Amelia, which is this just, have either of you seen Mirror Night? It's a horrendous movie. I remember everyone being like, oh, here comes our third Oscar. It's nobody's, I don't know whose fault that movie was. It's a horribly written movie, probably. But I guess that's the kind of role that you would expect like

an actor of her stature to be angling for the movie after that there's like there's nothing really nothing i mean she did no conviction and then she's like nothing she's in new year's eve and she's in the homesman which she's excellent in and it's an excellent little movie the tommy lee jones movie but obviously that goes nowhere now this year she's in Logan Lucky. I don't know how big her role is, but I'm excited for that. She looks really good in that. And then next year she's got a TV show coming. I was going to say, she seems like the person who's primed to have a TV show. It's weird to have

someone who has two Oscars and is 40 be perfect for a TV show. I know. It's very bizarre. But also, like, those kinds, like, all of her kinds of movies are what don't get made. Like, the kinds of movies that elevate someone who's, like, very classically pretty in a way and also very classically tough in a womanly way. Whatever that character needs, she would just be on True Detective now.

She's very contradictory. And the person she's kind of closest to is Jodie Foster. But Jodie Foster fit into a more typical movie star mode because she found her sort of footing in genre work and stuff like that. And it felt like she had a lot more kind of creative say in her stuff.

I know, Ben. I know. Okay. Alright. I couldn't let the Hilary Swain confusion go without being there. She's great in this movie. I think it's the best of her non-Oscar winning performances. It is an example of the kind of slightly undercooked roles

they handed her sometimes. Sure. But she's very good in the movie. But I want to play the box office game. As we noted, this film came out

Memorial Day weekend 2002, May 24th. Yeah. So it was a four day weekend and it opened number three to 26 million

on a 4646 million budget. It makes 67 domestic, 113 worldwide. Which would be like $100 million today. I don't know about that. Let's see. Let's see. You're usually good at that. I think 67 15 years ago would be like $100 million.

$102 million. There we go. He's so good at that. It's weird. I spent a lot of time on this website. What was the number one movie at the box office Memorial Day Weekend 2002? It has been out it's in its second week. It would be Star Wars Episode 2, Attack of the Clones, right?

Yeah. Which has dropped only 25%. Still the lowest grossing of all the Star Wars movies. But it's now made 201 million dollars. Number two is Spider-Man. In terms of my love of box office game, I was disappointed when I saw when this movie came out because I knew that those two movies were just still running the table. Spider-Man had In terms of my love of box office game, I was disappointed when I saw when this movie came out

because I knew that those two movies were just still around. Just running the table. Spider-Man had changed the game. We were all hyped for Star Wars, and then Spider-Man had come two weeks before it and had that $114 million opening weekend. The story. Everyone was like, shit.

This was also the end of my senior year of high school and one of the happiest times of my life. That's great to know. I was 16. I saw it in theaters. Did you see it in theaters? Insomnia? Yeah. I think I did. I think I saw it a couple years later on DVD. But this was also one of the happiest times of my life.

I would say. I was so glad to hear it. Life was so good. It felt really good in 2002. I was about to graduate. Got out of my shadow of 9-11. Got to skip school. 9-11 was in the past. We were moving forward as a country. George Bush is president. They were finally releasing Collateral Damage and the remake of Big Trouble for the second Big Trouble reference today.

We're gearing up for war in Iraq. Yeah. Great time. Great time. Everything was perfect. I know. And then Insomniac is number three. Number four.

Okay. You got any idea? It's another new movie. The rest of the movies are new movies. Oh, interesting. Three new releases. Okay. Number four. Is it live action or animated? Animated. From

2002? Correct. Spirit, Stallion, and the Samaritan? Simmerin, I believe. Okay, I've never known how to pronounce that. Yeah. The horse movie with Matt Damon. Stallion, Samaritan of the Spirit? Exactly. Simmerin, Spirit of the Stallion

Cool The joke is You can rearrange it In any order I believe we've done that joke On this podcast before Kelly Asbury joint Oh yes

The great Kelly Asbury Number five Okay Is like an R-rated Tough Hard-hitting Drama But it's also

A revenge movie It's a terrible movie that I saw in theaters. Anyone? What's like a... It's a revenge movie? Yeah. Is it led by a star? Is it like a star vehicle? Yeah, led by a star. And its title is like

the end of the tagline. Oh, enough? Enough. Interesting. Enough. The J-Lo Enough. Interesting. Enough. The J-Lo joint. Enough. Is that a Michael Apted? Yes, Michael Apted. Michael Apted.

Which made $40 million domestic. It was kind of the tail end of J-Lo, I think, as a star of like, because she made like a few dramas in a row, because The Cell is before them. But then Made in Manhattan comes out later that year and is huge. And then everyone's like, wait, maybe we undervalued her. And then Gigli is the next year. But no, yeah, because it had been The Cell, Angel Eyes, and Enough come out. And they're all flops.

What's the rest? What else is out there? We got About a Boy, which is a movie I thought was very overrated living in Britain, but was like one of those British hits that Britain was very proud that it had done so well. It gets Oscar nominations and stuff. What do you guys think about Boy? We watched it a couple years ago. I thought it was pretty good.

I like it a lot. It held up pretty well for me. Fine. All the performances in it are really good. Toni Collette's amazing in that movie. I haven't. Yeah, she's usually good. When's Toni Collette bad?

Never. Unfaithful. These kinds of movies that don't, you know, like that's a sex thriller these are all summer movies and they're summer movies it's crazy a lot of like adult dramas

in the top ten and it's also crazy to think that Diane Lane gets an Oscar nomination off of Unfaithful which had come out in fucking April

or whatever like that's pretty crazy and I wanted to say Robin Williams should have gotten an Oscar nomination and like

I think that one hour photo kind of fucked it up for him yeah The New Guy it's a DJ Qualls comedy do not remember it

one of those DJ Qualls vehicles Zero Will Rise that was the tagline yes do you remember this movie? yeah ever so vaguely I guess it's

just as a sort of byproduct of the Qualls dynasty because Road Trip is 2000 is that right? then they made White Quall so vaguely. I guess it's just as a sort of byproduct of the Qualls dynasty. Because Road Trip is 2000, is that right? Then they made White Quall. Yeah, White Quall. The prequel to White Quall. Quall of the Wild. You don't really

need to qualify DJ Qualls with white. You don't need to qualify it. Well done. Unqualified. Changing Lanes. That's another in the summer. A Roger Michelle picture. That's a good movie. That's a good movie. That's a good movie. When I was at NYU, I took a producing class from the guy who was either the line producer

or the production coordinator of that movie. And every week, the class was just him telling stories about Changing Lanes and how the movie got made and how budgets on movies like that happen. It's a good New York movie. It made 66 mil. You know? Solid. No one remembers that movie exists.

I saw it with my mom. I saw it in theaters. We had a nice time. Number 10, The Scorpion King. Okay. Yeah. Back in the news. Back in the news.

Yeah, exactly. Very topical. Would have been great if The Mummy had ended, The New Mummy had ended with The Scorpion King being back. If that was the actual reveal. Oh my God. Big Fat Greek Wedding is just starting its run. It's in number 11.

It's been out for six weeks. It's only made $7 million. So it'll probably end up around 10 or 12. Yeah, so it's sort of spinning up its wheels. The Rookie, which was another word-of-mouth hit from that year. E2 Mama Tambien is still hanging around. This is like grown-up movies. Monsters, Inc. is in its 30th week at the hanging around. This is like grown up movies. Monsters Inc

is in its 30th week at the box office. Yeah, grown up movies. Good, smart movies for grown ups. Murder by Numbers, which is another another of those. No, you said Taking Lives, but Murder by Numbers is totally another one of those. That's Barbra Schroeder. Barbra Schroeder and Michael Pitt. Yeah, isn't it? And Ryan Gosling.

Because Gosling and Bullock dated for a while off of that movie. Weird. Yeah. Some other new movies. 13 Conversations About One Thing. Roman Coppola's CQ. That was Roman Coppola, right?

Yeah. Yeah, that was. Yeah. Yeah. That's the box office game, guys. Fascinating. Different time. Different time.

All right. Well, that's Insomnia. It's a movie I love. game guys yeah fascinating different time different time alright what's in Sonia it's a movie I love and it's like an interesting you know kind of like sliding doors like

imagine if you just kept making movies like this for the rest of his career I mean that's like the fun thing with directors where it's just like

imagine if this is what like he at this point he could have made more of these he could have just been like a fincher and what a great career

I do like these genre movies I elevate them I have fun great career. I do like these genre movies. I elevate them. I have fun. I love, I'm a super. I only do R-rated movies. I love like technical craft of filmmaking. And I just kind of like look at whatever scripts I can and I do my own.

But like. And it's about partnerships with actors. Yeah. And that just went away for Nolan. And then he became, you know, an empire unto himself. Does he seem like a happy man when you met him? He seems happy. He seems like satisfied.

I mean, he's someone who has a artist and a film professional can like literally change the way the world in front of him is by snapping his fingers, which is the, which I think would like, like how many other filmmakers get like a blank check for the way their movies are distributed. Yeah.

Yeah. Like two, like it's just him and Tarantino and Paul Thomas Harrison that are like, I think my movie should come out this way. Everyone's like, okay. You say so. Everyone will be into that. If you think we should release it a few days early so that people who live near a 35mm projector can see your movie,

that sounds like a great idea. His movies make so much fucking money. Tarantino is hit and miss. Paul Thomas Harrison's always been his niche audience, but Nolan has the same level. Do you think Dunkirk's going to make money? I do I think so too I think people are ready

for a war movie If it's good it's gonna be huge Yeah And even if it's only okay it'll still do way Yeah cause the fact that Interstellar

made the amount that it did is pretty nuts when you watch Interstellar Right Dunkirk is a cool movie to be releasing in July It is We're saying it's like

Saving Private Ryan which came out in July It's the last time that there's been something like that I feel like it could easily make about that much money Yeah If it's like Saving Private Ryan which came out in July it's the last time that there's been something like that I feel like it could easily make about that much money

yeah if it's good I think it will yeah we will see we'll know by the time we get to Dunkirk I think

yeah Alex thank you for being here thank you guys so much it's such an honor will you come back nothing will make me happier good guess right great guess

hell of a guess it was so exciting stepping through the looking glass here but also I didn't make any of my 30 days of night references that I wanted to make as a prequel. Oh, fuck! I was going to do that, too!

As a prequel or sequel to this movie. I get it. I get it. Right. Glad I remember that. Griffin's really bummed that you didn't. I had a bunch of them locked and loaded. Well, do it now.

Like one of those YouTube videos of where the fireworks all go off at the same time by mistake but also do them and it just slowly fades out yeah right they do it could be your end finally they do in the original

there's like he's like is it light here all the time to his partner Stone Stars says like is it day here all the time they go no

in the winters it's night all the time and then I was like oh wait a second hey wait a second David Slade yeah well thank you so much for being on here people should watch all of your movies like oh wait a second hey wait a second David Slade yeah

well thank you so much for being on here people should watch all of your movies I'm excited to see Golden Exits when it comes out very excited to see

Golden Exits when can I see it TBD yeah that's how it works you live in New York it's playing at BAM next week oh really

cinema fest right this will have that won't help anyone listening probably will have aired right after this will come out a week after that

happens well it was fun. It was a fun screening. Good crowd? Great crowd. Hometown. Yeah. Rooting for you.

Yeah, your movies are pretty available on the online streaming platforms. You have a great filmography. iTunes and Amazon, I suppose. Someday, someday there'll be people doing a podcast miniseries on the films of Alex Roscoe we should all be so lucky Alex we should all be so lucky

as to live in a world where filmmakers in my generation will ever get these opportunities yeah that's that's the question Al Pod

Ross Pearcast I don't know that'll be the name of the miniseries our children will host it David yeah that's right

David and Griffin Jr. and Ben's dog will produce it or it'll just be Futurama heads yeah yeah it will be hits in a jar very possible let's wrap it thank you all for listening please remember to rate, review, subscribe

check out reddit.blinkies.com for some real nerdy shit that people are doing on a weekly basis big thanks to Ang for Gudo for running our social media for some real nerdy shit that people are doing on a weekly basis. Big thanks to Ang for Gudo for running our social media. Of course, Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for artwork. Lane Montgomery for the theme song.

And as always, oh, God, these vampires here. It's a jail cell. It's a jail cell. What? It's a night here all the time. Gotta fight these vampires.