Blank Check with Griffin & David - Joker

Episode Date: October 13, 2019

HA HA HA! On the week of its release in October of 2019, Griffin and David discussed Joker. Together they examine all the unearned controversy surrounding the film, Todd Phillips' career, the performances of Joaquin Phoenix and Robert De Niro, the portrayal of a gritty 1970's New York City and more!  Music Selection: "Entrance of the Gladiators" by Julius Fučík

I used to think that my life was a tragedy, but now I've realized it's a podcast. It's a podcast. I believe he says in the movie, he says a fucking tragedy or a fucking podcast, right? Doesn't he say fuck? Maybe. You guys just saw it. I already forget it. I used to think that my life was a fucking tragedy, but now

I realize it's a fucking podcast. Hold on, let me just sit like concaved, completely like falling in on myself. But you know that's the thing, that skinny people always sit in the most grotesque ways possible. That's true.

They always sit in a way that looks incredibly uncomfortable. Yes, and they become clown murderers. Right, and splays their rib cages, shoulder blades ripping out of their flesh. But they're very funny. Well, and can I say it? Dare I say it? I don't know. A little bit.

Twisted. A little bit. A little bit. Twisted. A little bit. A little bit. Or twisted. All right, we're done, right? Welcome to the episode. Thank you all for listening. That's all people wanted.

Thank you, thank you. This, of course, is Blank Check with Griffin Diggs, a podcast about filmographies, directors who are master successful around their careers. I give you a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes they laugh. And sometimes they cry, baby. And

we somehow backed our way into doing a weird Erstas miniseries. Erstats miniseries. Erstats, yeah. I'm decelerating us out of it, though. Yeah, you know what the great irony is? Yeah. We were trying to decelerate already, right? A hundred percent. Which is why we skipped. We didn't do

Shazam. And I now kind of view that as a regret. Yeah, that's a good move. It made... Well, we could do like a... I know. We'll do it somewhere sometime. I don't know. But like, it was because of scheduling, because of how long Burton was and Dumbo was already going to come out four weeks after it was released. Right, it was depatting.

And we were like, eh, we're maybe down-throttling the DC thing in general. But here's a thing. Here are two things I never could have predicted. If you had told me on the outset of this year. One, you will find more value in Avengers Endgame than Joker.

Two, you will find more value in Shazam than Joker. Right. Three, you will find more value in Aquaman than Joker. I guess that's just on the line. Aquaman, I'm enough of a James Wan fan. Okay, okay, fair enough, you'll find more value in Aquaman than Joker. I guess that's just on the line. Aquaman, I'm enough of a James Wan fan. Okay, okay, fair enough. You'll find more value in Maleficent 2, Mistress of Evil than Joker. Sure. But I will say, well, she is the Mistress of Evil. I will

say, post Infinity War, I felt totally burned out on the MCU. You mentioned it on our Patreon episodes, patreon.com slash blank check. Please subscribe. Please. And so I was like, fucking done. Don't want to see Endgame. Dreading it, right?

Yeah. And likewise, I was like, Shazam looks like diarrhea. Don't know what DC's doing. Silly. Don't love Chuck. Right? Sure. And two of my favorite superhero films in years.

Those two. Yeah. And I think interesting films that are actually sort of moving the sub-genre forward a little bit. Shazam in particular, I was very astonished by the balance of actual dark shit, not

performative dark shit. Yeah. But also psychologically. We talked about, on our Patreon episode, about the scene with his mother. Yeah. All that stuff. I mean, our Patreon episode of Black Panther. Right. That's where we discussed this.

So we were like, maybe we're done with the DC movies, but I guess we've got to do Joker because Joker seems so weird. Sure. And you and I, a year ago, after being completely flummoxed when they announced this film, started to come around to like, you know what? I mean, you know, they cast De Niro and there were those location shots of them on the subway and everyone was like,

and Maren was in it. Right. And we're like, I don't know. Maybe it's good. And we were also like, you know what? I like the idea of making

like just fucking one movie. Sure. Right, right. Which is actually what DC is basically a thing that Warner Brothers is planning with these comic book movies

going forward. Which I think is smart. Which is smart and is different from the Marvel thing. The thing that you have to give Todd Phillips all the credit in the world for. All the money in the world. Well, please. Not a single penny.

Was that the line? Sure. Nothing. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. No money in the world for you. Yes. That movie is essentially the Mr. Burns joke of like where he's like, we don't have anything to spare.

And then all the jewels fall on him and he's like, this house is falling apart. It should have been called none of the money in the world because that's what he said. How much do you want to pay for your grandson? How about none of the money in the world? He holds up an egg. Yeah. One goose egg. But no, yes, I think we were kind of in on the

idea of that. Oh, no, that's what I was going to say. Todd Phelps to his credit says now, and who knows if this is retroactive mythologizing, but this matches with the stories I had heard. He was feeling very frustrated by the lack of impact that War Dogs made.

Oh, oh no, I'm so sorry, Todd. We don't make shitty movies. I agree and we'll get to that later. Okay. For the rest of this episode we will get to that. But he was like it's fucking all this superhero shit. How do we use like how do I work within the system? Because of course comedy

had been cancelled. They couldn't make comedy movies anymore. Oh yeah Griffin pointed that out before the movie started. Well the the film begins, of course, with the mass execution of all comedians. Comedians get executed. In the town square. And also, they take... The guillotines drop. They take also the famous, the masks of drama and comedy.

Right, right. And they rip them apart and they smash the comedy one to the ground. And it's only drama. Right. And they're holding up and they go, this is all you can make! The Golden Globes, of course, they pretend to have the two, but then it's only drama. Right, and they're holding up and they go, this is all you can make! The Golden Globes, of course, they pretend to have the two, but then it's a massacre. We knew.

All the comedians are just led off to slaughter. We should have seen it coming. I mean, this is how, this is why they gave the award to The Martian because they're trying to push comedy out.

And look, I know we've all- Space poop, though! We've all been going along with it. What if I had been interviewing Todd Phillips when he went on the Cancer CulturekullTrat and I was like, What about the Martian? Jesus, Todd. Most financially successful comedy in the last five years.

What are you talking about? Is this a comedy at the Globes? Maybe it is. That would be the ultimate joke. I mean... That would be pretty good. You know who would love that? Ricky T.

This one best comedy at the Globe. Ricky T. Ricky T. Ricky, that? Ricky T. It's one best comedy at the Globe. Ricky T. Ricky T. Ricky, Ricky, Ricky T. Oh, God. The comedy is canceled. It's probably the reason why Joker got so twisted. Because he can't make jokes anymore.

Yeah. And the movie calls it out. It calls it out. And I sighed very loudly. I love that moment when... I love the duality of him being like, I should be able to joke about anything, but everyone in society has been mean to me.

Totally. It's really cool. Right, it's weird. It's almost like there's this correlation between the people who claim that they're being oppressed by society because they can't tell the jokes that they want to make about oppressed people.

It's almost like there's something there. There's this great scene in Joker, a film we're going to discuss today, where he pushes some boundaries. Yeah, here's a great boundary. Sometimes he misses. That's the end of those jokes. I have to stop making them.

They're too easy. This is a moment I love in Joker is when, spoiler, he complains about the fact that people are so sensitive you can't make jokes about anything and then shoots a man point blank in the face.

And he's right. We cancel murderers left and right these days. We're always fucking canceling murderers of talk show hosts. You know, it's uncomfortable. We got to talk about it. Spoiler alert for this film, by the way. There's no room for murder in woke culture. Because murder is one of the least woke things there is.

It's very unwoke. And that's why Joker's my hero. David, what were you going to say? Sorry. I thought it was a great scene when Joker did a podcast with his friend and they ranked the races. And how funny they are. Or how tragic they are. Yeah, you're right. I used to think ranking the races

was a comedy. Now I realize it's a podcast. Okay, what. I used to think ranking the racist was a comedy. Now I realize it's a podcast. Okay, what I was going to say is Todd Phillips goes to Warner Brothers and goes, what if DC does the one thing that Marvel can't do? Marvel has built this

very airtight, interconnected universe and you've been trying to do the same and failing miserably. So let's take advantage of the fact that we failed. Because he's got this overall deal at Warner Brothers. He's one of like four filmmakers who has the golden keys at Warner Brothers. Right? Clint.

Yep. Nolan. Nolan. Yep. I'd argue Phillips and now maybe Bradley. Beaky. BC. Right.

Yeah. Producer of the film Joker. Yes. But they've. Yeah. You know, you serve the film Joker. Yes. But, but they've talked about, you know, as a Warner Brothers has become more and more of a corporate culture that the only three people they give that level of control to are Phillips,

Nolan, and Clint. Yeah, sure. Those are the three. Yeah. So he says, I got an idea.

What if you make like a black label series of DC movies? You do one offs. You do things that are completely removed from continuity where you sign bigger talent on, you do it more prestige, you take big genre swings. Here's my example. I'd love to do the Joker like a 70s Scorsese movie.

And they go, here's your blank check. Pretty much. I mean, I believe almost literally in the Vanity Fair cover story about Joaquin Phoenix says, like, you know what? I'll find the quote. Please do. Because it's actually worth it. But basically, I think the movie cost.

60? He says $55 million, which is, you know, a chunk of change. It's not Justice League money. It is very expensive for a drama. It's expensive for an R-rated drama Inexpensive for a comic book movie which I think was the selling point. Right and he says in pitching

the movie to Joaquin Phoenix, Phillips said think of this as a heist movie. Yes. And Joaquin was like what are you talking about there's like no action in this movie. Yeah. And he was like now my friend made a little joke. He said we're going to take 55 million dollars from Warner Brothers and do whatever we want. And then he was promptly canceled because jokes are illegal.

Also, podcasts are fading. Joaquin, of course. Yeah. He's a good citizen. Called the police. He did. And they came and they guillotined Todd Phillips. The citizen's arrested.

And that's why this movie was directed by Todd Phillips, head in a jar. Oh, God. But, yes. I mean, here's the thing why this movie was directed by Todd Phillips, head in a jar. Oh, God. But, yes. I mean, here's the thing about this movie. I don't like it. I was... Not a fan? Not a fan.

And I gotta say, I was a little surprised and frustrated by the ways in which I didn't like it. Okay. Because I was trying not to preload him with expectations, but I kind of thought I knew how I was going to feel about this thing. Well, so I think that's fair because this film has been accompanied with a lot of discussion and hype. More than pretty much any movie this year, right? Right up there, certainly. Arguably more than any movie in years. And so first, let me talk about myself for a sec because I'm very important and you're trying to cancel me.

But first, I saw the movie first on like the way, on like wave three of hype. Whereas I feel like you saw it on like wave six or whatever, right? Venice is the premiere. The film premieres at Venice. First wave of reviews.

People, a few of my critic friends saw it, other critics see it. The reaction was pretty positive, but I would say American critics were more mixed and more like, This might be a little dangerous. Right, right, right.

Liz is bad for the culture was sort of brewing out there. Right. Not are people going to shoot up a theater dangerous, but is this bad for the culture dangerous? So that all happens. That's all resolved. Then I'm at the Toronto Film Festival where Joker will premiere in a couple days. I am getting ready to see Pain and Glory, the wonderful Pedro Almodovar movie. Retired bit. And I'm just scrolling through my phone. Scrolling away. in a couple days. I am getting ready to see Pain and Glory, the wonderful Pedro Almodovar movie.

Retiredit. And I'm just scrolling through my phone, scrolling away. Scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. And it's like, oh, the Venice Awards are being announced. Oh, and Lucretia Martel,

famous comic book hater. One of our finest living filmmakers. A great filmmaker. She was the jury chair this year. And it's sort of like, it's one of those things where, you know,

the winners get invited to the ceremony and people are like joker is there so perhaps like joaquin won an award yeah and it's sort of like the awards like start winnowing it's like oh no joker didn't win that one right joker didn't win that one and then we got to the scenario where it was only roman polanski's movie and joker were left the exact scenario you want to be in roman polanski's movie won the runner-up. Joker won the Golden Lion. Of Venice. The first studio movie to win, we were looking at it in quite a long time.

1990? I think it was 80. Was it 80? I thought we found one other thing. 80, it was Gloria and... And Atlantic City, right? Right, tied. Wasn't that the duo?

They tied in 1980, but I thought we found one other one oh Michael Collins thank you 96 so but yes at that point I'm like a festival that rarely

awards American films and even more rarely awards studio films right so I'm like I mean I start to have it I'm like

maybe it's good like maybe like I know people are kind of creeped out by it and I get them but like what if it's like really good

I want to be very I like 70s Scorsese movies I want to be very clear about something right here all three of us would love nothing more than to love this movie oh sure me especially well no me especially

but I think all three of us for different reasons have been holding on to this little hope of, like, what if it's great? Like, what if it's actually kind of an important work? Yeah. I mean, I love Joaquin. And it would be nice to see those elements come together in a way that crystallizes like a movie that speaks to our times. I'm not saying it has some sort of fucking message. But even beyond that.

Yeah. Even if it was just an effective thriller, like with sort of throwback-y aesthetics, don't have to love it, but I liked it. Any number of ways, I think, any combination of the three of us could have been very satisfied by this one. We had a blankie meetup with fans at the Toronto

Film Festival, and it was like the day before I saw Joker, and I was very much throwing around the like, maybe it's good concept to people. Then I saw Joker at Toronto, and I was very much throwing around the like maybe it's good concept to people then I saw Joker at Toronto and I was like oh that was a slog it's incredibly one note I was really disappointed with it and I was like oh what the fuck like I was genuinely surprised at myself for sort of getting you know swept up in the hype because I was like oh well that's that's my thing. Talk about the waves of this thing.

Since Toronto and since the Venice win, it has just become this breathless cycle of debate largely between people who have not seen this movie. It's just on and on. The worst conversations have been happening between the people who have not seen the movie and this sort of discourse about oh fuck, we're going to put security guards in theaters because

there's 100% going to be a shooting, which to me, especially after seeing this movie, I think and we are out of the opening weekend of this film, right? No incidents reporting other than people vaping in the theater being kicked out. Thank you everyone on Twitter for tagging

me in any of those stories. But there have been zero stories of anything happening at a Joker screening that would not have happened at an Olympus has fallen screening. Right? Sure. Or even a good boy's screening. Yeah.

Joker or bad boy? In a certain way, that is true. The original bad boy comedy. Just pointing that out. In a certain way, it feels like that was more dangerous. Was the sort of like, it almost felt like the news media was trying to will into existence some sort of large calamity connected to this movie. And then you watch it and it feels kind of like empty, half-hearted provocation.

That's how it felt to me. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Right, so then, right, we see it at Toronto. I feel like the buzz at Toronto was a little more mixed. The movie comes out. The reviews in America are very mixed.

It's certainly not. And then two boys, Griffin Newman and Ben Hosley, not David Sims. Sure. If we introduced this podcast, we did. We did. We did. Griffin Newman. Yeah.

Went to see it, you know, one lovely morning. If we introduced this podcast, we did. We did. We did. I'm Griffin. Yeah. Went to see it, you know, one lovely morning. Went to see the Joker. We saw 1030 a.m. screening. I would like to point out we were sitting next to a young man drinking two Coors Lights Tall Boys. 1030 in the morning. To make it very clear, it was 1030 in the morning. We got that cool, cool matinee pricing.

Yep. But we sat there and kind of... I truly... Did you see any good trailers? What did we see? We saw... The Michael G. Borden movie? Ben's

very excited for Just Mercy. I tried to tell him... It's very okay, unfortunately. It's sort of regular. Just Mercy is just kind of perfunctory. It's like okay, unfortunately. It's sort of regular. Just Mercy is just kind of perfunctory. It's like that guy, really good guy, the movie's like, he's good. And you're like, yes. Then you walk

out and you're like, what a good guy. Which is fine. He is a good guy. We saw the R-rated Red Band trailer for... Just Mercy? No, for what? Unrated, out of control. For Zombieland 2 Double Tap, which I found very funny. I point out to Ben. It has the chyrons from the director of Venom.

Sure, right, right, right. And the writers of Deadpool because those are the jobs that those – They went on to. After making Zombieland. It's not like they were hired to revamp. They're the Zombieland guys. They're the Zombieland guys. I would say from the writers and directors making Zombieland. It's not like they were hired to revamp. They're the Zombieland guys. They're the Zombieland guys. It should say

from the writers and directors of Zombieland. Right. And instead, it's like everyone involved in Zombieland, a movie that is fine.

Yeah, it's fine. I saw it on theaters and was like, okay. But everyone involved since then has had at least one colossal hit. Well, it almost, it should be like from the director of Zombieland, but also Venom.

Right. But also Gangster Squad. Right. It should be apologizing. But you know what I'm saying? It's like Eisenberg, Oscar nomination. Harrelson, two Oscar nominations. Love him.

Stone, two nominations, one win or three? Three, Birdman. What's the third? La La Land, what's the favorite oh right of course great performance three nominations one win yeah abigail breslin i guess is the only person she already had her was already she right she was coasting in to zombie land as the oscar winner of the cast and it was and academy award nominee abigail breslin oh right she doesn't have a win she had the and. It was and Academy Award nominee Abigail Breslin. Oh, right. She doesn't have a win. She has the nomination. No, no, no. Right, and it was like,

that was like the spec script that got, what's their names? Rhett and Wernick, the screenwriters on the map. That was Ruben Fleischer's debut film. It was like,

everyone went on. I love how it set you on this tangent. It's a great tangent. Had this big career, and I love them just being like, hey, you loved Venom and Deadpool. It's a weird time though

to like be sitting in a theater seeing a packed... A serious Golden Lion winning Joker movie. Joker movie that just opened in nearly $100 million. And the trailer beforehand is boasting its connection to Deadpool and Venom. Right.

Two other, like, you can't make a movie out of those characters. Sure, two other That material doesn't work. These are three characters that are ostensibly kind of anti-heroes at best and absolute villains at worst. Sure. Psychopaths at worst. Who are not, you know,

they exist to bounce off of people. And instead they all got their own movies. Right. Like three characters where you're like, you cannot make a movie in which they are not standing in juxtaposition. The whole point is they're the opposite side. Especially Joker and Venom. Especially Deadpool. And Deadpool.

He's riffing on the series. He's riffing. David, can I tell you something? Ben, be just... Have your trigger finger ready. Okay, like on SNL when like Jenny Slade is saying frag a lot or whatever and you gotta...

Richard Pryor's hosting. Okay. David? I'm ready. Deadpool knows that he's in a movie. Okay. What am I supposed to do cheer

yeah great rise to your feet in fear oh boy no but it was just one of these things where I was just like yeah I mean you remember how much we were all clowning on the idea like they're gonna make a fucking Gambit movie with Channing Tatum and now I'm like make literally anything at this point I guess make a fucking Marrow movie with Channing Tatum. And now I'm like, make literally anything. At this point, I guess- Make a fucking Marrow movie.

I don't know. I guess all of them work. Yeah, sure. Pick any one. I guess any one of them. Maggot? Remember Maggot? Make a Maggot movie.

We could do it. We could do it. Do you know, can I tell you about Maggot? One of the most, the most 90s X-Men ever. He was in like eight issues and people were like,

get this guy out of here. He might be the single weirdest superpower ever. Because there in like eight issues and people were like, get this guy out of here. That might be the single weirdest superpower ever. Because there are ones that are sillier, but they make sense. He's a big boy. He's kind of blue. Blue skinned. He's from South Africa for some reason. He's got like white hair. He's got a whole look. He's got like red goggles,

white hair, he's blue skinned, he's all over the place. He's in that post-Gambit phase where he's got the long trench coat. He's not wearing like a uniform. He's wearing like, He looks kind of like the crow. Here's his power. He doesn't eat food with his mouth. He has two metal creatures that look like trilobites that he calls maggots that can eat anything. They come out of his tummy.

They come out of his tum-tum. They eat whatever they want to eat, and then they go back inside his tum-tum. They eat whatever they want to eat and then they go back inside his tum-tum and like, you know, give him the food. You know, a straight line. A very clean, understandable superpower. And the X-Men introduced this guy. That's not a superpower though. I mean, it's a mutant power in that it's sort of like, sort of a curse, you know,

like classic. Oh, okay. Here he is. I guess the idea was, the power is like, oh, the maggots? See him? If there's a brick wall, the maggots could eat through the brick wall. That was kind of all he had to offer. Right. And they introduced him as like, get ready. The next X-Man is here.

Maggot! Like, you know, they were like rolling out the red carpet for maggot. So let's make a maggot movie. Todd Phillips, get him on the horn. Yeah. Well, unfortunately, Marvel doesn't have a black label. Marvel doesn't have a black label. Isn't this also like

AMC Presents? It's like the AMC Fine Art. The movie's making a gajillion dollars. Yeah, AMC Artisan is now any movie with a budget under $100 million. That's what's crazy,

right? Extensibly? Any movie that just is like not in a cinematic universe. It can be a comic book movie. But I feel like AMC Artisan was slapped on

almost every trailer we saw today. It might have been on the fucking Zombieland 2 trailer. It was on everything. Phillips apparently actually was like, we should come up with a

different name. Oh, really? We should have like a fucking studio imprint and call it like DC Black Label or DC Vertigo or whatever. Like Marvel Knights or whatever. Right. It doesn't have the DC logo? I forget. It does? No. No, it just has

the great 70s Warner logo. Right. The red. And your big question you had. It's cool. Since you saw it. Oh, it doesn't have the Golden Lion imprint. It does not have the Golden Lion imprint.

Fuck that bullshit. Sorry. Sorry. So mad. It's such bullshit. Usually whatever film wins the Golden Lion has like a title card before the movie where it says like winner golden line and the festival logo.

We usually see that in independent and foreign films that win major prestigious European film awards. They want to celebrate that. It's a brag! A huge brag! But it was just the idea of oh man, this is the first studio film to win the golden line in 20 years. How cool would it be?

20 plus years, if a movie being released on 3,000 screens opening weekend starts with the Golden Line, Brad? Whatever. I feel like The Shape of Water probably didn't either, did it, or Roma? Did that win the Golden Line? Mm-hmm.

Huh. Yeah. I wonder if, I guess it probably didn't either. I guess I put- Fuck that. I feel like unless it's for- Brag! You won the award! Everyone should brag, I wonder if, I guess I probably didn't either. I guess I put. Fuck that. I feel like unless it's four. Brag.

You won the award. Everyone should brag, and they shouldn't be humble about it. If this movie ended with Joker getting the golden lion, maybe it wouldn't kill Robert De Niro. Well, in a certain way, it wasn't the most twisted thing Joker ever did. It was getting the golden lion. All right. All right. We went to see a screening of a different movie last night called Gemini Man, which we will be talking about next week on this very podcast.

Yes. Much better. And I said to you— Better than Joker. Do you agree? Yes. Okay. And you asked me if I had seen Joker yet, and I said no, and I am relishing my final hours of not having an opinion on this movie. It was this thing where, like, honestly, honestly truly despite being someone who's something of an

omnivore and likes to be part of the conversation I found it so fucking exhausting. It's nice to not have to have an opinion. If we were not doing it on this podcast I would have waited six months for it to end up on fucking HBO Max or whatever. Because I just was like you know what this all just feels like

a fucking nightmare. And then to see it and feel like there's not much there there. I just was like, you know what? This all just feels like a fucking nightmare. Right. And then to see it and feel like there's not much there, there. There isn't much there, there. And the key to this entire movie, which was my big take that I was going to come in with, and then I believe Sam Adams over at Vox beat me to it. No, at Slate. But yes.

At Slate, sorry. At Slate, sorry. The key to understanding this entire movie is that Todd Phillips' career started... Ben's going to like this. Oh, Ben's ready to jump into this. He has seen the film itself. I never wanted to. It seemed awful.

It's disgusting. No, thank you. What's the title again? It's called Hated. Hated. Documentary. Toddated. A documentary. Todd Phillips' first feature. Todd Phillips as an NYU student.

About Gigi Allen. Adored Gigi Allen. Booked him to perform at NYU. Made a documentary with his participation that was finished after Gigi Allen died. And so it stood as this final kind of testament.

Because there's a quote I want to read. Gigi Allen is like a racist punk rock guy who was really, really on the fringe of that scene, that subculture, and definitely is, for example, the best show, sort of used him as a comedic foil very often because his act was so gratuitous, disgusting. He would smash bottles on his head.

He would poop on stage. He would shit on the stage and throw it at the audience. And his idea was he was so punk rock and his shows, the pits were so crazy that you could die if you went to his show.

Right. It was the ultimate act of provocation. But it also was... And his music was bad right and racist right and but it was sexist it was all just to stir up anger every every button he was pushing i'm assuming was just to get people right and he was a incredibly manic heroin addict yes you know i mean it was like he died because he had too much heroin right right like he od'd too much heroin. Right. Right? Yeah, he OD'd too much. Which will lead to the quote I'm going to read, but he was sort of

the like nihilistic, antagonistic shadow of like someone like Daniel Johnson. Right? Where it's like,

here's this weird outsider artist. Okay. But Daniel Johnson is this sort of like sweet kind of like lovable energy to him.

I said the shadow version. Right, exactly. I'm saying they're the polar opposites, right? Sure, sure, sure. Where it's the same kind of like sweet kind of like lovable energy. I said the shadow version. Right. Exactly. I'm saying they're the polar opposites. Right. Where it's the same kind of thing where it's like you're going to watch this bizarre thing and try to engage in this thing. And these guys exist in their own weird universes. For sure. And Daniel Johnson is all about craft.

Right. It's all about like, oh, to most people, this might sound like childish music. But if you actually are listening, his songwriting is like incredibly intelligent right his compositions are incredibly intelligent and you're watching a man let you into his brain natural genius right and ggm is like i'm throwing everything at you my music is ostensibly garbage and i'm just spewing hate but the what you're watching is pure, unfiltered id, in a way, in both cases, that is fasting to people. And Todd and a lot of other people that sort of, I guess,

supported Gigi Allen as they looked at it as performance art. Yes. Correct. I have no opinion on that. I think that's stupid. Sort of a weird line. Why would anyone want to go to a show and potentially get murdered and pooped on? I mean, the Gigi Allens of the world i guess we're after that i mean isn't a famous story that like when they premiered the movie he was still alive they like shot more after he died and like at the premiere he like threw a bunch of beer bottles injured a woman yeah and then ran away

because the cops were called like he was he was stupid stupid it was annoying but also he was like this is a good movie but this is also where the Daniel Johnson comparison comes in I've been thinking about Daniel Johnson a lot because he passed away recently was an artist I loved but in both cases I feel like those guys were erroneously framed as

performance art where Daniel Johnson is doing so weird because he is a mentally ill man and he's not concerned with the same sort of trappings of presentation that most of us are

that people were like, I'm not watching him play, I'm thinking about the larger context of this quote unquote simple man with his cassette recorder. Right?

When really, if you want to take that guy seriously, you can take his music seriously. There is art there, right? Absolutely. And G.G. Allen is like the opposite, where it's like, oh, all this shit is performance art.

He's making a point. It's like, no, this is a mentally ill man who is being encouraged because people think there's some sort of meaning in the fact that he is like shitting in a way on stage, that he is causing violence, that there's some sort of statement here all right let's let's move out i want to read though because it's very important okay this is from the sam

adam slade article and he said hated ends with alan's funeral after a fatal heroin overdose and rather than express sorrow at alan's death because todd phillips is the narrator of hated i know okay phillips i'm not gonna watch that movie you'd never have to uh until we Because Todd Phillips is the narrator of Hated. I know. Okay? Mm-hmm. I'm not going to watch that movie. You never have to. Until we do our Todd Phillips answers. Honestly, David, seriously don't. Okay, I won't. Because there's stuff I now have seen that I can never forget.

Sure. Phillips mourns that he went out in such a hackneyed rock star manner. It's true. Right. Quote, personally, Phillips says, I always hoped he would go out in a more glorious fashion. Onstage suicide, five dead fans, something rock and roll could never ignore.

And as Sam Adams says, that sentiment jibes dangerously with both Joker itself and the people who have used the occasion of its release to threaten public despise of violence. Todd Phillips once thought murder-suicide was a joke, now he's made a movie about a man who laughs at it. And it kind of is the whole fucking thing, right? Like, it's sort of this perfect bookmark of his career.

Can we do a brief amount of Todd Phillips' career context since we're in this quarter? Brief, yes. Okay. So he makes the Gigi Allen Hayden documentary, which gets some attention because Gigi Allen gets attention. He is a topic of discussion. It's probably one of the many reasons he made it. Much like the Joker of his time. Yes.

Then he made Frat House. Right. So his follow-up is he makes a documentary about Frat House culture, which people loved. It premiered at Slamdance? Yeah. No, it was at Sundance. It was at Sundance. And I believe it won some kind of documentary award.

And then there was a lot of controversy over the fact that some of the footage in it was staged. Yes. And so documentarians got mad about it and it wasn't aired on HBO it was supposed to be. But also I think that many of the people the subjects of the film sort of fought against the release of it.

I'm sure they did. I think there was a mix of both that some of it was staged and that some of the people caught doing you know. Yeah but there's like these scenes of hazing that were that Phillips made up. Right. And like, I mean, he paid people to stage them.

And he was like, well, Michael Moore does it. And everyone was like, okay. I mean, like not the greatest defense in the world. Right. He also started like an underground New York film festival. That was him being like, the real shit isn't being screened. And it was a lot of fucking documentaries on taboo subjects. I am too. Yeah. Yeah. shit isn't being screened. And it was a lot of fucking documentaries on taboo subjects, right?

I am too, yeah. Yeah. But Frat House leads to him making Road Trip, which is a direct result of American Pie and the sort of resurgence of the Porky style 80s sex comedy. He met Ivan Reitman, friend of the show, future guest. Yes.

Who as the director of Animal House and sort of the progenitor of that genre. He met him at Sundance when he had the Frat House movie. Right. Montecito Pictures, the Ivan Reitman company, has a first look deal at DreamWorks. And I think they sort of go in the wake of American Pie. Ivan, you should be the guy. Make an American Pie.

Anoint a new dude. Find a new. But I think it's also just like make a movie like that. Make a college comedy. Exactly. Make a college comedy for us. At this point, Reitman's out of that. Reitman's. Yeah, exactly. Make a college comedy for us. At this point, Reitman's out of that.

Reitman's like, Dave, six days, seven nights. But they're like, find a new guy who's like you, who has the anarchic spirit that you had

in the 80s when you were producing Animal House and when you were directing Meatballs and all that shit. American Pie came out, I think, July 99.

Road Trip is like, May 2000. So it's like, you know, I think just the minute it came out, they were like, just. Direct response.

Round some people up. Have some teens. Right. There's sex. Who do they like? Tom Green. Put him in the movie. Yeah, whatever.

And of course, American Pie directed by a friend of the podcast, actual friend of the podcast. Chris White. Chris White. Chris White. Who we've talked about that movie with him both on and off podcast. And the way he talks about is very fascinating where he and his brother had been working screenwriters for a long time, really wanted to direct something. Right. And he was like, I'm very uncomfortable with sexuality.

I was very uncomfortable with the idea of directing love scenes. It was not our type of material, but it was like the one – like we'd been fighting so hard to get the chance to make any movie and that was the thing they offered us. And I feel like if you go back and watch the original American Pie, it is a lot less raunchy than people remember it being. It has like... Yeah, it's very much... It kind of feels like a lot of those 80s ones where it's like kind of not raunchy and then it'll be like

moments of sort of like contained raunch, right? Like little set pieces. It's weird how much of that movie is emotional. Yes, it's sort of a half sweet movie. Because it's the guys who wanted to be making About a Boy are trying to put as much of that into that movie.

Road Trip is about a douchebag who cheats on him. I mean Breckin Mayer who's like we enjoy Breckin Mayer. He's a sweet faced man. But like he cheats on his girlfriend. But that's a classic example. Has to catch the video before it reaches his girlfriend girlfriend that is a classic example of that type of comedy casting where it's like cast an eminently likable sweet-faced man right to play a character who

is written as a reprehensible douchebag so that the audience kind of roots for them because their innate charm yes overcomes the actual we can't talk too much about this stuff, but exactly. This is all important. How much do you want to talk about the Joker? Well, we can talk about it a little bit, but my favorite thing about Road Trip is that Sean William Scott is in it. Yeah. It's Stifler, basically.

Yes, right. Like, they don't even, they're like, oh, it's my friend, like, Iftler. Like, I mean, like, it's just the same character. And Tom Green had just popped, and they were like, can we shoot, like, one week with him? He just does a set basically. He just does weird monologues. He's the guy who doesn't go on the road trip. Yeah, he just talks to

people. He narrates the movie and most of it he's just in a room by himself. And who else is in it? DJ Qualls. His breakout of course became our next great movie star. What's his name? The guy who played the anamorphic. And then he was in Joey.

I don't know what he's been doing since then. He is in Joey's in the Postcards, his best performance. Of course, of course. So there was that. I guess it did well. It did well. It did. And that sets him off. Old School, which I think is the most

sort of purely functional Todd Phillips movie. That is the one where, and I've been a little afraid to re-watch Old School in the last couple of years, but I think you got those three guys just at the moment where they're totally honing in on their movie star personas.

He sort of reclaimed Vaughn from the post-Swingers wilderness. It's the first real strong Will Ferrell movie role, which then leads into Elf later that fall, and it's like first real strong Will Ferrell movie role which then leads into Elf later that fall and it's like Luke Wilson getting to be like his perfect sort of straight man character right? And it's got

the right level of like the Todd Phillips anarchy while also feeling like the movie has a soul and not a performative soul. I don't like that movie old school. I was a big fan of it. I don't like it. I've not seen it. I've never liked it I mean I never, I didn't hate. I was a big fan of it. I don't like it. I've not seen it. I've never liked it. I mean, I never, I didn't hate it.

I thought Will Ferrell was funny. I'll say this. I always thought it was like just okay. I always really liked it. I liked it. I remember like. That was my favorite of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it.

Like Wedding Crashers, which I despise. I'd always be like, Old School's the one that for me actually works. There is a scene where. Old School's probably better than Wedding Crashers. Unquestionably better there's mud wrestling and an old man has a heart attack and dies

but they're all like old blue is that his name but it's like sort of set up where it's like well he died with a boner

so I don't know if alright look with that with that hey I'm Tom Power I'm the host of the CBC podcast

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slash alumni win. Alright, so, yeah, road trip, okay, old school, okay. Okay, right. Starsky and Hutch, he makes like sort of a big star studio comedy. America's favorite studio head, Harvey Weinstein, goes, Todd Phillips is the new guy, signs him to a three-picture deal, I believe. They do Starsky and Hutch, which does pretty well. Yeah.

I've seen it. I don't remember it that well. It's fine. It's, like, totally whatever, right? Then he did School for Scoundrels, correct? Which is his one big flop. Yeah. It's like totally whatever, right? Then he does, he did School for Scoundrels, correct? Which is his one big flop. Yeah. Is that Thornton, Billy? It's Thornton

and Heater. John Heater. Billy Bob Thornton has talked about how like after Bad Santa, like studios are just like, just keep doing this. You're gonna play a horndog. Woodcock? Woodcock, this, Bad News Bears, like right you'll just play like the bad man. Right, he did his run there. And this was

the peak of that and the peak of everyone going like, how do we fucking make John Heater a movie star? Yeah, God. Luckily, finally America snapped out of that one. The bottoms fall out on both of them on this movie, and the movie makes no impression at the box office, and

Philip seems a little down and out. Right? His Weinstein deal had kind of crashed, and it was like, wasn't that supposed to be the next big studio comedy director? And he starts going through this crisis. He sets up a movie with Jack Black called Man Witch. Great. That is about a grown, slacker, School of Rock-esque man

who finds out that he is, in fact, a wizard, gets sent to a Hogwarts-type school. That's what's... Okay. So the premise was, imagine Jack Black in a high fantasy school environment, whatever. Ha ha ha ha. Right? So it was like a...

Oh, the jerk is back. A very broad sort of PG-13 family comedy studio premise, and Jack Black pulled out very late in the game, and Todd Phelps is like, I don't know what I'm fucking doing anymore. I'm waiting around for movie stars. No one's let me make an R-rated comedy. Right?

And he makes the big career decision of his life. Which is, Vince Vaughn was down. Will Ferrell had not been a movie star yet. Well, I guess he... He had supporting roles, but that was really his breakout. Oh. You mean old school? Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Oh, okay. Right. I get you now. He? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Oh, okay. Right. I get you now. Okay. Cast of Road Trip, I discovered a lot of people. I have some history of finding people,

making some comedy stars. I want to do that, and I want to make a dirty R-rated movie again. I want to make a movie where there's not the same level of studio interference I've had from the last couple of projects I've made, and the ones I've tried and failed to get made. Yeah. So he finds the script, the hangover.

And he goes, this is funny. And he goes to Warner Brothers and he says, I want to cast whoever the fuck I want. We've talked about this. Legendary co-signs. They basically like thirded his budget in return for you'll make money on it if it works and you get to cast who you want. I mean, you got to give him credit. It has ended up being one of the smartest career decisions a director has made in modern studio

history. He said, what is the number where if it is under that budget, you will let me cast whoever I want? And they said $27 million. And he went, great. And he picked Bradley Cooper, who had been the best friend or the rival boyfriend in a bunch of movies, but was not a leading man. He picks Ed

Helms. Who's sort of the 14th guy from The Office. Right. And Zach Galifianakis, who we knew was one of the funniest people alive and who I think a lot of people had been like, someday he should be a movie star. One of those whispered about all comedian guys. And also was a good actor. When he would appear in movies, he was a good actor,

but he rarely had large roles. And he makes the movie and it explodes. And because he asked for no money and demanded that kind of control, his director salary was like $10,000 or $100,000 or whatever the fuck it was and he ended up making like $80 million. It was his George Lucas Star Wars deal. It was a big deal.

That's true. But I think it's important to say that Todd Phillips has like $100 million in the bank. He's a rich man. Okay? He's one of the most financially successful directors. So, of course,

he does two Hangover sequels to diminishing returns. Although Hangover 2 makes bonkers amounts of money. They make money, yes. Even three crossed 100. Right. But people are kind of going like,

People get sick of it. They went back too many times. Do you guys have those steelbooks? For the Hangover trilogy? Yeah. I'm waiting for the 4K re-release. Okay. He also made Due Date, which you're a fan of. I'm a big fan of, and I will get to that in a second.

We're like an hour in, we haven't talked about The Joker! You said I don't want to talk about it! No, come on, man! Don't fight with me. We gotta talk about this movie. We're gonna talk about it, okay? But I think the Phillips of it all is the most interesting thing about this movie. Yeah. For better or worse. Yeah,

sure. Okay. Yeah, go on, go on, go on, go on. I don't like the Hangover movies. No. I think the first one's really gross and the thing I think is really gross about it is it's like the worst of both worlds where it's all about depravity, but the whole movie's about like, but actually they're nice guys.

Yeah, that's what, I don't like those movies. Yeah. And then the third one tries to be in on the joke or whatever, but like, at that point, get out of here. Which is the one thing I find kind of interesting about it. I like it the most of the three in a franchise I don't like. But the first two, it's like, well, they didn't really mean it. They were drunk, whatever, you know? But it's about like fucking having your cake and eating it too.

The whole movie's about how can you give everyone the thrill of watching seedy behavior but saying actually but they're good guys and they don't remember doing it and they don't know what they're doing. It's also just not that funny. It's just not that funny. That's my main problem with that movie. Just not that funny. Don't find it funny. I saw it in theaters. I was very excited to see it.

I didn't laugh. Okay. Due Date is I feel like the only Todd Phillips movie that actually has something to say about the human condition. And it is, I think, a movie kind of about him. And that's a movie about how every single person lives directly in the damage or the benefits of the presence of their father or lack thereof. Sure. That everyone is very much defined, especially men, let's say, right? Sure.

I haven't seen due date. Men in society are very much defined by their relationships with their father and trying to come out from under the shadow or overcome an abusive father or negligent father or an overly doting father. become an abusive father or a negligent father or an overly doting father. And due date is two men with two completely diametric relationships to their fathers who are both completely damaged by them, stuck on a road trip while one guy is trying to get back home in time for his son to be delivered. And it's him sort of reckoning with the fact that he had a shitty father and he's a shitty

person. He's probably going to be a shitty dad. It is a dark movie, but it is one of his only movies if not his only movie that I think is actually trying to say something about that darkness rather than just using it as window dressing for fucked up shit. Okay?

So that's what I kind of like about it. It's Downey Jr. giving his only fucking non-stark performance and I think the most reined in and the most human they've ever come up with a Galifianakis movie character in his sort of leading man era. Yeah, for

sure. Right, but he goes from that, he does the Hangover sequels, he does War Dogs, which is like, I'm trying to make this step to Scorsese, people kind of shrug it off, and then he takes his big swing with Joker. Have you seen War Dogs? I've watched the first three months of War Dogs on HBO Go. And I fell asleep and I never finished it.

It's not very good. It seemed fine. It seemed completely whatever. It's just the characters are awful people. Yeah, it has that issue, a little bit of the cake and ate it, which is a classic Phillips issue. It's got this Jonah Hill performance that's fairly compelling. He's playing a monster. He's a great actor.

Everything, I mean, Teller is kind of god awful in it and his stuff is bad and, you know, his whole thing of like, you know,

I just kind of got sucked into being an arms dealer. It's so unbootiful. And you're just like, one, I don't believe you. Two, I don't care.

You know, like, why am I paying any attention to you? Bradley Cooper shows up near the end. Much like in Joy, he's kind of good. And suddenly, there's like a little bit of energy.

You mean Bradley Cooper, producer of Joker? That's right. PGA? Yeah. But like it was a shitty movie. And right, so he's like oh God, what am I going to do now? I guess I'll make a gigantic blockbuster Joker movie about murder. Well, and also you can't make comedies anymore because comedy's cancelled. That's why all the funny

guys stopped doing comedy. Yes, I know. There's zero funny guys left. I will say this, though. Yeah. Dan DeVito locked the gates this week. Well, that's where Marin talked about Phillips, right? And kind of laid him out. He did a great fucking job.

He kind of locked his gates. Mark Marin's got his one-scene role in this movie. It's pretty good. Mark Marin hates superhero movies. He's been shitting on them. He made it very clear. I took this movie. I wanted to work with Bobby. That was it. I got one scene with De Niro. He's one of my idols. I want to work with him. But I don't like

superhero movies. I'm kind of depressed that I'm in one. It's a comic book movie. That was his other justification. It's barely one of these. I picked it because of De Niro. We're hopefully trying to do something different. Whatever. I have one scene. And the movie comes out and Todd Phillips

goes on the defensive as these people always seem to do. When they're successful? And have been able to do everything they want. This is the whole thing. I'm like, you're doing great, buddy. You're doing great. Pure blank check status. If you want to make a comedy right now, you can make it, Todd. His producing partner, his shingle at Warner Brothers, is him and Bradley Cooper.

It's two of the only four guys at Warner Brothers who have carte blanche, are united together. They can do whatever the fuck they want, especially post-Joker. But somehow these people always seem to think that everyone's preventing them because they're saying that they don't like the things they make. Which is free speech. Alright, enough. We're going to talk about Joker now. Marin went on this incredible run explaining

you're allowed to say whatever you want and people are allowed to respond however you want and if you feel like you can't be funny while thinking about other people's rights then you're probably just not that funny. Right. Then you probably aren't that good at comedy.

Or you need to work harder. Right. Or the only things you find funny are at the expense of other people. I have no sympathy for Todd Phillips. It doesn't matter. He made The Joker. Yes.

Joker. Joker. Joker. When you introduce me, can you call me Joker? Yeah. Okay, so the movie opens with what? Him at the meeting with the social worker?

Oh, it's him with the grease paint. Him doing the smile. So he works at a clown store. Works at a clown. He's like a rent-a-clown. Clown factory. And they're playing one of eight songs that invoke clowns or smiling or laughing in the title. I know.

Because they do send in the clowns. Typed clown into Spotify. They do smile. What are the other ones they do? They do everything that's in any way adjacent. Make them laugh probably is in here somewhere. Sure. You know, whatever.

But also in the white room and fucking Gary Glitter rock and roll part one. The thing about, okay, so there's been, you know, the like 18th sub controversy about Joker is that it features a Gary Glitter song. Gary Glitter is a confected pedophile. One of America, I'm sorry, one of the world's most notorious and successful pedophiles. And so people are like, how dare, you know, like literally he's going to make some money off of this.

Which is true. Beyond that, it's a terrible use of the song it's completely unnecessary absolutely it's the hackiest fucking choice you could make yeah it's literally just him dancing on the steps yeah to like you know to rock and roll part two which is just like basically like clip art guitar riffing right you know what i mean it's just it's like generic guitar riffing when anything when it kicks in i was like oh my god did someone shake the iphone why is this playing now i forgot i even had this on my itunes boy anyway weird weird so yes i mean here's what's messy about he's a clown arthur uh fleck to look it up at jack he's a clown

but he's also mentally ill which means he's not to be trusted well look this this movie has a lot of nuanced things to say about mental illness such as if you go off your pills you'll shoot a talk show host right i mean like again one of the 14 subcontroversies people aren't even getting to it yet they'll get to it this movie is horrible about that stuff. It's, like, absolutely off-base on anything relating to this. I would argue that is the element of the movie that— It's the most distressing element. And it's actually the one that's kind of dangerous.

Sure. I don't think that, like, fucking, you know— Considering that there's, like— It'd be one thing if it's, like like he's crazy and he goes to the asylum lots of Hollywood movies have painted with that brush but like the scenes with the social worker

him going off his meds like you know having it all like he didn't go off the meds society took the meds away from him you know whatever you're right

society's the real joker but also he is not only a man who suffers from a fucking catacomb of undefined mental illnesses. The laughter is like an unnamed mental illness where he laughs when he's nervous or whatever. But he's got 18 medications and there's a bunch of shit that they never name, that they never point a finger on. That's just a fucking side effect, right?

That's a symptom of whatever his neurological issues are. On top of that, he is also a victim of abuse. Right, right. Right? And to me, that is the area in which this movie feels wildly irresponsible. Where it's like, I honestly don't think this film is coherent enough or tapped into anything enough to make some fucking Jordan Peterson fan be like, fuck, I gotta get my gun and run through the streets right now, right? Sure. I don't think

it will rile anyone up to that degree. I don't think it is successful enough, dramatically, to be able to do that. Because that would involve some sort of coherence of viewpoint. It doesn't really have a very coherent political message. It doesn't. And look, even something like

the fucking... It sort of yells things. Right. It felt to me like Birdman. And that is a movie where every scene it makes five observations. Have you noticed that this is a thing? Sometimes this happens. This is a problem in society. Anyway, moving on.

It's like all set up with no punchline. And something like The Matrix is endlessly fascinating because it has encouraged so many of the worst corners of the internet in a wild misreading. That could not be further from what it is very clear. Exactly. People complained at the time, was overly didactic in a tiny lister, flipping the cover down on a detonator and going like, we will not let this man define it. Sure. And people were like, oh, the movie's sermonizing.

Oh, weighing it on a little thick. And yet for 10 years, people still took all the wrong lessons and were like, the point of that movie is the Joker fucks, right? I would say that's the reason that I don't really, watching the movie, it's neither here nor there how people react to it. Totally. Because you never know how people are going to react to it. That's my whole point.

You never fucking know how people are going to react. Okay. Okay? So I don't think the film's coherent enough. Okay, but what do you think? But I do think this movie, in the same way that every time there's a mass shooting, our politicians, our elected officials go, well, it's not a gun problem, it's a mental illness problem.

And they use the boogeyman of mental illness as just a giant undefined umbrella to say there are crazy people out there and you don't want crazy people doing crazy things. But also, we have no infrastructure to help people

who suffer from mental illness. I mean, that stuff is really irritating. Like, yeah, the sort of social, like portraying the failure of a social safety net as part of a fucking

comic book villain's origin story. You know, I like— But here's the thing. If that's actually what that movie wants to say— Well, sure, but it— No. No. Get out of here.

But that is a credible movie. If you want to do a movie about someone who has actually failed by society, not someone who feels like they are being shit on by society, but the second you're getting into, oh, the social worker is losing funding, so he can't afford his medication anymore. That's a fucking thing. That's an evil in this world. That is a tangible thing that people don't tell stories about.

That's a path you could take. Here's another path that haves and have-nots, right? The idea of Thomas Wayne potentially being someone who has bought himself out of culpability and responsibility for a child is something that has a little meat on the bone potentially. Sure. You know what does not have any meat on the bone? His mom was crazy. She made up lies.

Also, she beat him over the head and tied him to a radiator. Also, yes, but also what this movie is doing is it's not letting anything be true or not true. Right. You can watch and be like, wow, I think that's in his head and that's real. So who gives a shit? Nothing matters. Well, it sounds like you just tapped into Todd Phillips' viewpoint. Which is the whole fucking problem with this movie.

But beyond that, so say there's Split, the Shyamalan movie, right? Which also sort of plays around very wildly with depictions of mental illness. And I had those problems. But it leans in the other way where it's like, this starts out realistic. And then by the end, it's like, this is fantasy comic book shit.

Right. Whereas this is starting with fantasy comic book shit, but then being like, but really like this is real and gritty and human and personal. Like, you know, it's like trying to lean away from the... He's a comic book character. Now, look. I mean, Alan Moore's whole fucking thing about the killing joke, which he wrote, and this is somewhat inspired by... It was the first time they gave

Joker a sort of detailed origin and made him a failed comedian. And it was also the first time that someone put a substantial amount of menace into the Joker, who had always been sort of a theatrical threat up until that point, and it was the first time that someone put a substantial amount of menace into the joker who had always been sort of a theatrical threat up until that point and it was the first time someone was like that's not entirely true i can dispute that but but because he's already um you know he he joker

we didn't talk about that but it was the first it's a very dark book he paralyzes that girl in the spot i think he'd already killed robin at that I think he'd already killed Robin at that point. Yeah, he'd already killed Robin at that point. Okay, fair enough. Joker in Batman was originally a very scary villain. And then after a while, DC was like, Batman's recurring villains are not allowed to kill because then that would prove that Batman is inefficient at stopping crime. Oh, sure.

And so Joker, only one-off villains were allowed to kill. And Joker became the sort of more caesar romero funny villain okay and for a long and then he vanished because dc hated joker and in the 70s he came back scary yeah 70s when they were then they were like no joker was cool let's like relaunch like neil adams yeah exactly the joker's five-way revenge which is a great joker story and then yeah in the 80s, as everything in comic books, it escalates. And Alan Moore writes the killing joke in which he paralyzes Baccaro. He shoots her.

He takes naked pictures of her. It's terrible. Frank Miller does Dark Knight Returns. Sure. Yeah. But then Alan Moore later was like, I don't like the killing joke. Yeah. I don't think I had anything to say with it.

Like, you know, I feel like I should have been reined in. It's just kind of negativity and darkness. And I feel like comic books have only leaned more into that, which I don't like. And then he's like, Joker doesn't represent anything. He's a comic book character who is Batman's opposite. He doesn't really stand in for anything.

That's sort of his fundamental... It's tough to do something allegorical with Joker because he's not a stand... He's a comic book character. Which I think is what people find so fascinating about him and why we cannot fucking give him up as a character. We want to keep doing the Joker. Because it's like he kind of is just this fucking Rorschach test. Like he's kind of this reflection of whatever the fuck we're feeling

and how much meaning you want to put onto him or lack of meaning thereof. The smartest way that anyone has ever dramatized the Joker is just the Nolan game of his changing backstory. I love that. Right? Like that's perfect. That's the best writing I've ever seen of the Joker in any medium.

Aside from the quality of that performance. Right. Right? It's just that is like that's it. That's what we find fascinating about the Joker is that any one of these backstories on their own. Would make sense for such an indefinable creature of evil. But the fact that

they keep on shifting means it's maybe one of these or none of them or who fucking knows or maybe it's all a put on. And then also what if he put

Twisted on his head? Right. Well, damaged. Damaged. Sorry. Fuck. What if he laid on the floor

around a circle of knives? He does that in this movie, right? Uh, yeah. That's in this one? In Joker? He does it every night before he goes to sleep. He lays out his Brooklyn ends and then carefully arranges knife by knife around his head. Does he sleep on the couch or is it like a two bedroom? He sleeps on the couch.

Sleeps on the couch, right? Yeah. I was trying to get how squalid his apartment is supposed to be. Yeah. Because initially I was like, wait, both him and his mom have rooms? Yeah. It's alright. Also, anytime I see squalid New York City apartments initially I was like, wait, did both him and his mom have rooms? Yeah. It's alright. Also, anytime I see squalid New York City apartments, I'm like, that looks fine. I've lived in apartments that are worse than that. That's the story of

New York, was that the homes were often good. You know, they got bad, but you know, good bones is the gentrifier that's said. Good bones. Or as Ben Hosley says all the time about bones. Bones. Also, Joaquin Phoenix, look at his bones. He lost all that weight to get all bony.

Ben was actually making that type of sound. He's kind of gross. It makes me cringe. Yeah, I know. But you know what's fascinating? He's done it before, right? There's another movie he's really skinny in. The Master, he's very skinny in.

Yeah. And there's another one. He definitely fluctuates. Yes. But I'll say this. Here's a massive difference between Paul Thomas Anderson and Todd Phillips. One of them is... They only have two names?

And that's it? And they're the same otherwise? Equals. Joaquin's crazy skinny in The Master. And he's doing the same sort of weird, what you call a ham sandwich performance. For sure. It's a lot of mannerisms. This is that too, in my opinion.

I mean, I prefer The Master. I rewatched The Master for the umpteenth time a couple weeks ago. I should rewatch it. I think it's a phenomenal film. Does it have anything to say about the current moment we're living in? I think so. No, I was about to say, doesn't it obviously, I feel like it's really relevant right now. I think it's one of those movies that's kind of actually about everything in the way

that The Joker is about nothing. You know? The Joker is about how society is the biggest joker of all time. Yes. But, but, but, but, but. In that movie, he's doing ham sandwich. I think he's supported by the film. 100%.

It's a better performance. It's just that type of, I'm not that fond of that type of action. I understand. And you, yes. And you tend to like. I love him in like James Gray movies... I love him in James Gray movies. I love him in...

Sisters Brothers, you loved him in? He's really good in that. He's actually funny in that. Science, he's great in? Yeah. You like him when he plays normal guy. I do. I mean, the James Gray movies,

I would say are probably my two lovers. We Own the Night. Those are probably my favorite walkings. I feel like there's another walking I really like that I... Two Lovers, he's phenomenal in. He's incredible in Two Lovers, which is like a sort of

quiet ham sandwich. Like, you know? Her, he is excellent at. And I'm not a huge Her fan. I don't like that movie. I don't either, really. But I think he is so good in that film. Oh, well, you know,

you'll never really hear. Well, yeah, I wasn't sure if you liked that performance as much as I did. Oh, I love that performance. He was my best actor when of course last year. He's also very dialed into that movie's tone in the right way.

I don't know. I really love that performance. He is someone who- I had been pretty sick of him and then he gave me those. Yeah. He is someone who kind of lives or dies based on the collaborator. Sure. You know, because he is a guy who by all accounts is so sort of experimental and throwing shit

out there that he needs to work with someone he trusts who guides him the right way and picks the right fucking footage. And this just todd phillips was telling him on a day to day basis to do weird shit and then just compiling two hours of the weirdest shit yeah i mean there's definitely some stuff like that the dancing yeah um is something phoenix came up with totally he was supposed to like laugh or whatever and he was like what if i did this dance and phillips was like oh that's good and those moments in the movie are something. They're not that interesting

but they're at least something. We were talking about they feel a little different. Comedia del arte kind of reference maybe. And it's just sort of like something to hold on to in that movie when most of the scenes in the movie I was kind of just like can we get this over with. That's why the use of his body like he's all twisted and skinny

in the master right and it's interesting to watch all the positions he gets into but it's not fucking like fetishized like it is in this where it feels like one day on set because of the lighting he bent into a position shirtless and Todd Phelps was like oh you look like a fucking

David Cronenberg creature so now every other scene is going to have you shirtless in some position that no one... Why is he sitting on the couch with his back fully arched so that his ribcage is... This man is... He's a joker!

But that's the point. It's all just like... Good joke! That's a good joke when he does that. He's a friggin' clown! Is there one joke in this movie? I guess De Niro's got some zingers. No, the sense one is okay. What's the sense one? I wish my...

I hope that my death is worth... Something about sense. Remember the sense joke? I can't remember. De Niro's got some zingers. Definitely got some zingers. I wish De Niro had just done like five minutes on Jimmy Carter or whatever. That would have been funny.

The De Niro casting in this like five minutes on like Jimmy Carter or whatever. That would have been funny. The De Niro casting in this. The obvious thing here is De Niro's cast because of fucking King of Comedy. Yeah, 100%. But it's also funny where it's like, what are the two things that Robert De Niro, one of our greatest screen actors of all time. Reading cue cards. I would go even more specific than this, okay? Go ahead, go ahead. Live televised comedy and talk show appearances.

He is famously the least articulate talk show guest. But this is like top of the heap for him now, right? Yeah. Like this is his best late night talk show appearance ever. Yeah. He at least is, you know, he's bringing it. It's funny also, I saw someone tweeting about how like they heard young people in the theater being like, Robert De Niro is like not believable as a talk show host.

And it's like, oh, because now talk show hosts are like, shots, Yahtzee. We're just talking about Fallon. But also Corden. Yeah, sure. The party game sort of like, I'm just a good guy. I like everything thing. Where as talk show hosts used to specifically be,

here is an ornery old man who seems to resent all of their guests. These fucking kids in that disco. I know I'm not allowed to say fuck, but who's watching? And you see, like, here's another example of where this movie almost gets at something, but doesn't actually, throws in so many conflicting points that it doesn't actually land any sort of view on anything. there's something kind of to the idea of a talk show host using the Joker in the way that like David Letterman used Harvey P. Carr or like Harmony Corrine, where they were like, look at these weirdos. I'm going to set them up to do weird shit and act like what a fucking freak. Yeah.

You know, right. There's something there. Kind of. But it's all really just to set up the final thing. Right. Right. It's more just plot and also i refuse to believe for a second that joaquin gets up one time at a stand-up club the entire goes viral in 1980 gotham or whatever film his set and send it to why would he put that's not bad enough to make it onto this guy's show yeah right especially not

a Carson style show maybe like a freaking Carson daily show you know what I mean that's like every open mic in New York City

currently every open mic now here are two points one every open mic performance is more embarrassing

than that two if someone got up on stage in an alt room in Brooklyn and just laughed for three minutes, people would be like, oh, who's this guy?

This rules. It might crush. I feel like if this thing is set... If you can't make it through your jokes, it would destroy. They'd get new faces. This thing is set in 1980 or whatever? Whatever.

Like, cringe comedy is not even a thing. It's like danger field is going on carson and being like doc talking about dr vitty boom bots like we're not ready for like like feeling awkward and having that be funny like that's not happening yet no those kinds of videos weren't catching on to the mainstream carson didn't like that shit in that way but can i tell you about something david yeah what's that noise oh that that's a herd of cattle destroying our it room a cable monkey we won't let just any animals loose on your it infrastructure cable monkey offers high quality installation maintenance and repair services focused on your commercial it

infrastructure structured cabling camera systems access, access control, whatever you need. Cable Monkey has you covered. Higher quality, less expense, and no headaches. Cable Monkey. Get your free quote today at cablemonkey.org. So, yes, we're talking about the Murray Anderson thing, that whole element of it. It is weird De Niro casting aside from the fact that, you know, it's the inversion of the King of Comedy thing. Yeah.

Because he's not very convincing as a loose charisma based comedian. He's not very convincing delivering those jokes. He is not very convincing of like the rhythms of the power. I agree with that, but you know what? He is compelling because he's Robert De Niro. So when he's like hosting a late night

show, I'm like, I'd watch this. He is innately compelling and I will say this. I think when you get into that final sort of showdown between him and Joaquin and it's actually just an interview I think he plays that very well. Well good actor. He's a good actor but I'm saying you could have made

him more of like a Morton Downey Jr. Made him a more like aggro sort of conversation based talk show host. Or even like you know who's the guy who used to go after Carson who was basically— Tom Snyder. Yeah, Tom Snyder. The idea of making him like a fucking Borscht-Belty, like one-liner guy.

But they need it for their stupid, you know, plot set up where he is actually like Tosh.0. Right. And they need it to be De Niro because do you get it? King of comedy. Yeah. Now here's the other thing. I was thinking about the sort of the Scorsese-Robert Delusional movies, right king of comedy. Now here's the other thing. I was thinking about the sort of Scorsese, Robert Delusional

movies, right? And I came up with that the other day. I coined it TMT. But the taxi driver, king of comedy, sort of like, here are these sort of delusional loners who live in their own kind of weird fantasy world with their sense of, I'm the hero of my own narrative.

I'm just sort of barreling towards this ultimate success and the validation I believe I deserve. And how many people vainly try to emulate those movies? And the other one I think of that was also a Warner Brothers film 10 years ago is Observe and Report. Which was like, you know, there are other

examples before that and after that, but I remember at the time that one was so big. That got so much Taxi Driver comparison. And Rogan was saying it in the press and Jody, but I remember at the time that one was so big. That got so much taxi driver comparison. And Rogan was saying it in the press and Jody Hill was saying it in the press and everyone was like, we're trying to make that kind of morally ambiguous, anti-hero, delusional. Everyone always talks

about those movies used to be so morally ambiguous. Everything's cut and dry. We want to make them morally ambiguous. And every time someone tries to do it, you're like, they don't have their hand on the dial in the same way Scorsese did. It was an unfair comparison, but it maybe speaks to why this type of movie, which is so difficult to pull off, should only be pulled off by, you know, one of the greatest filmmakers of all time. Yeah, I mean— Like maybe it's an advanced ropes course that everyone can't jump.

But watching this movie, another thing hit me, which is that Scorsese has a pretty deep, innate sense of empathy. And the thing with those movies is they are not glamorizing these guys. They are not making them underdog heroes, but they also aren't just beating up on these dudes.

And Jody Hill likes making fun of delusional people, and Todd Phillips likes making fun of delusional people and Todd Phillips likes making fun of shitty behavior and this movie feels like so you're not

an Observe and Report fan I like it okay it's okay I think it has stuff in it that I find interesting I don't think it's a very good movie

but I think it has very interesting elements now to your point it was also just sort of like at the time it was like Seth Rogen was playing mostly Sweethearts

and it was it felt very much it was exciting to see someone what else it just felt like him being like you know I want to make something that's going to kind of freak you out it was nice Seth Rogen was playing mostly Sweethearts and it felt very much it just felt like him being like you know I want to make something that's going to kind of freak you out. It was nice to see a movie star trying to push boundaries

and sometimes they miss. To your point think of the comedy set in King of Comedy. Right. That is really good writing. It's really subversive comedy. He makes a joke he's like he makes a joke about Clifton, New Jersey, and then he's like,

oh, we got anyone in the house here? Anyone would be from Clifton, New Jersey? He's just, well, yeah, I guess I would say yeah. But this was the thing I was thinking about watching this movie, which it's like, it is so deftly handled in King of Comedy, the level of skill he has as a comedian. Where it's like he will never make it. But he's not complete. He's not like this where he's actually like shouldn't even be allowed.

He has just enough competency that you believe that he thinks he's going to make it, which is the very specific line. And the movie isn't asking you to constantly be like what a fucking moron for thinking he can do this. So this movie begins. I mean just because this is exactly he's meeting with his psychiatrist. I have a joke book. Yes, I'm gonna write a diary. I started writing a joke book.

His joke book slash diary I told you that I want to be a comedian, right? He talks about how he's gonna be a comedian. She's like, okay. She opens up his joke book and it's basically just like he's scrawled like murder, murder, death, death. I am a Freudian nightmare. He's just sort of like...

He's cut headless bodies out of porn magazines. It's riddled with misspellings. He's like illiterate. It's the most hacky fucking like, you know, SNL version of like the diary from seven or what, right? Like it's just like draw a serial killer diary for me, right?

Like that's messaging three things at the same time. You're going, A, this is like the evidence of a psychopath after he commits his crimes, right? B, these are bad jokes. They aren't funny. They're badly constructed. This guy doesn't get jokes. And C, he's a moron.

Right. Because every time they cut to a sentence in his book, it is so wildly misspelled. Right. He uses the wrong word. You know, always. The other thing I want to point out is. There's a point where he says have like H-A-V-E and it's written as half. Like I have to go do this or whatever.

I know. So he's like. Okay, go on. Well, Taxi Driver, which was written by paul schrader a good movie that is well written sure yes uh was inspired by the diaries of arthur brammer who was this guy who tried to shoot uh george wallace right or maybe did successfully shoot yeah he shot him um and like so you've now filtered this like four times, right? It's like that, that genesis of an idea of like, right. The diary of a madman and like Paul Schrader, right.

He was like working as a taxi driver and going crazy and like writing this screenplay in the back of a car and right. Like that sort of like the energy that's driving that movie notoriously. And you got three very academic thinkers, De Niro, Scorsese and Trader. And here's another big element that movie has working for it. Those three guys were all actually living with palpable frustration about their careers and what they felt they were destined for. Sure. And they also lived in the actual 1970s.

Right. They knew that shit. Right? But even if they're exaggerating it to like a violent psychotic degree, that movie is funneling the energy of Scorsese, De Niro, and Schrader each going, I know I have the goods. Why isn't anyone letting me do the thing I can do? Especially at that point, Schrader. Very much so.

So then this, we have this. This movie is kind of like a taxi driver prestige. Kind of. Plot-wise, it's more taxi driver because it's about a guy who eventually commits this act of violence. He's under the boot. And is kind of regarded as a hero in a weird way. He keeps fucking everything up. Everyone keeps on fucking him over.

Right. And he's got this diary, which Taxi Driver has this diary concept where he's talking in his head and all that. And this is just such a like such a like boulderized version of that and um it's uh it's not very profound it's a bad movie it's also that thing when like people say like why don't they make movies like that anymore right it falls under uh lindsey ellis who is a film critic and thinker is very very good on YouTube, posted a video that I think is great. That's such a good counter to the argument where people say like, you couldn't make Blazing Saddles today. Like you'd never get away with it because of PC wokeness.

And her whole retort to that is Blazing Saddles may be my favorite comedy of all time. A film that she loves as well. She says, you couldn't make Blazing Saddles today because there's no reason to make Blazing Saddles today. Blazing Saddles is a product of the time it was made. You know? It was based out of a righteous feeling that was existing underneath the surface of society. Its transgressions were interesting because they had never, those lines had never been crossed before. There was no reason to make it today.

It would be regressive. What you could do is make the film that is the equivalent for our times as Blazing Saddle was. No, no, no. You have to make Taxi Driver again. That's the fucking problem. Is that people go, I want to make a movie like Taxi Driver again and rather than go okay, let's like adjust the compass and figure out what Taxi Driver is for 2019. Well, they did.

And they decided that it was Joker because now we make comic book movies. So that's what they did. That's what he did. Right? That's like he did. Right? That's like, he's like, there's another line in that Vanity Fair profile where he's like,

if I can't make comedies, I'm going to make something like that. You know, where he's like, fuck you. There's a lot of fuck you energy. It's about the weird fucking energy of straight white men online

feeling like they're the persecuted class. Well, that's what everyone was picking up on it, you know, as it started to gain steam. Not so much that this is a movie about a guy who looks at the camera and is like, in cells, march. But it's just more that it has this very Taxi Driver-esque subplot in which he likes his neighbor down the hall played by Sassy Beats.

And they have this relationship that i immediately was like this is in his head and then later in the movie it's basically revealed like yeah he that was in his head right he was talking to nobody you go either this is in his head or this is the single worst film ever made right this is an inept piece of characterization even by the standards of this movie right but it's not it's in his head. It's the Sybil Shepard thing again, basically. Like, again, a sort of bolderized version of it, right? From Taxi Driver. What the fuck does any of this mean?

I don't know. He's the clown prince of crime. I don't know. This guy puts makeup on a fish. So it's like... You know what I'm saying, though? Not what does it mean in terms of, like, how do I read this? I mean, like Not what does it mean in terms of like how do I read this? I mean like what does it mean in terms of like

does any of this matter? Is any of this of any consequence in this movie? Oh like the Zazie Beetz stuff or whatever? We're spending this much time on multiple dates with Zazie Beetz where I'm like you on a scene by scene basis are doing nothing to convince me that this could actually be happening. So I'm watching

and going you're to fucking pull the rug on so these scenes are a waste of time. As you've been pointing out sort of various ways, like yeah, the guy is too much of a sort of weirdo, sort of idiot. He cannot even do an impression of a normal person. He's not a functional human being in any way, so it's impossible to imagine. A thought I had

is it's revealed that his mother and her boyfriends would beat him. Like he was a kid who was abused. And then what does he do kind of right after finding out information? He breaks into his girlfriend's apartment and terrifies her and her daughter. That doesn't make sense.

In a scene that also they kind of like leave dangling and you don't quite know what happened after that. Like did he kill her? Did he just run away? It's already a movie where you have, like, the fucking weird... There's going to be 50 fucking posts on the internet that are, like, definitive evidence that he kills her in that scene. Or that she lived and that she kills him.

But I love stuff like that. The rest of the movie is his death dream. David, don't you love stuff like that? Like, remember when Joker and the Batman met? Did you love that? Yeah, sure. What'd you like about it? What's your favorite part?

I don't know. I mean, I love the Joker. He's great. And when he sees a little boy who's Batman, Bruce. Oh, we're talking about this. Okay. Okay.

All right. So look, look, look. Cause this is the thing. This is the thing I actually have to talk about. This is the thing that we all have to talk about. There's almost something here.

Oh, I don't know about that, but it looks so much. I don't think the movie does it at all. I'm watching this movie. I'm watching this movie. And I know that Thomas Wayne is in it, played by Brett Cullen, which I thought was hilarious because he's in The Dark Knight Rises.

This is a different character. And really, you can cast a slightly wider net, but whatever. He's the fucking congressman that the Catwoman kidnaps. Right, of course. I knew he was one of the suits. And so he's playing Thomas Wayne and like it turns out Joker's mother was

who worked for the Wayne family and believe Thomas was Joker's father. Maybe she made that up or maybe it's true. Who knows? The Joker's crazy. And that's why he's fixated on. And there's a scene

with little Bruce Wayne played by some little boy. you're like oh it's Bruce Wayne he does magic tricks and he'll be the Batman his fingers in the little boy's mouth and the security guards mad at him I mean Joker's like I was just trying to and I'm like is the movie supposed to make me feel sympathetic for I thought that guy was supposed to be Alfred yeah maybe yeah yeah that was my take which I thought was kind of, well, I'll get to this. Bad job by Alfred. Yes.

Don't let him near the gates. But I understand the entire point of the movie is this guy's fucking weird and twisted. But when he put his fingers in the kid's mouth, I was like, this is bad. Don't do it. No good. Don't put two fingers in his mouth. And at this point, this movie has had this progression of terrible events

happen to the Joker I'm just gonna take us through the plot very briefly that's where it just feels like fucking we need to so like there's the early he's beaten up on the street

by a bunch of kids who are not white that's true because most of the people of color in this film are either clerks they're either angelic or

service workers nameless or hooligans who are later referred to as savages. But then Joker gets a gun and it goes off in one of the better scenes in the movie. At the hospital. That's just weird.

No, when he has the gun and he fires it and it goes off. That's a scene that's loaded with some actual tension that feels like He's watching the musical on TV. some actual tension that feels like he's watching the musical on TV yeah and it feels like it's about a person who would you know be sort of on their way to committing acts of violence

not the most interesting thing in the world but at least like a small scene that has tension I was hoping that he was going to go are you laughing at me are you laughing at me okay and then he's harassed by Wall Street bros on the subway. One of whom played by the great Ben Warhite.

Great New York comedian. Who sing Sondheim at him. Well, they're huge Sondheads. And he shoots them. They're coming straight from a performance of Marilee Weaver. You got that in the subtext, right? Sondheim! Sondheim!

It's a little night music. I believe you sing this into the clown. I'm pretty sure. I know that a little night music is sending the clowns. I'm saying they know the whole body of work, David. They're into all of it, right? They go deep. They just saw passion.

Yeah. No. So these, it's the Bernie Getz. It's the most obvious, like, you know, 80s parallel, right? It's the Bernie Getz subway shooting where Bernie Getz was this sort of unhinged, whatever, couldn't take it anymore guy who shot some kids who were hassling him on a subway in a very racialized crime,

but he became a weird sort of folk hero to certain, you know, it's a very, it's a part of New York's history that is loaded with all kinds of tension. Todd Phillips sort of takes the basic imagery and puts it in Wall Street, bro-singings on time, kind of robs it of any kind of meaning, but whatever, that takes the basic imagery and puts it in Wall Street for singing Sondheim. Kind of robs it of any kind of meaning. But whatever.

That's the Joker's first big crime. Well, because I think he's trying to marry that to a thing. Yeah, the whole violence against the rich, you know. Eat the rich. It's sort of 10 years too late Occupy Wall Street shit where it's like this is something that could radicalize a city, right?

So vague. But yes, then it starts to radicalize the city and there's a masked Joker on the loose and everyone's got that on their lips. And there's almost something interesting to the fact that they are Wayne employees. If you're dealing with the mythos. He's coming back to Wayne, which is just like the big business of the-

He's also running for mayor and he's running in this Bloomberg Trump-esque way where it's like, I actually know how to help everybody and people are debating whether we need some rich guy coming and solving problems. Businessman thing, but also he's like, whatever actually know how to help everybody and people are debating whether we need some rich guy coming and solving the problem. Businessman thing, but also he's like, whatever. He's going to be hard on crime.

At some point, his version of deplorables was calling people clowns, which got everyone upset. I didn't even remember that. They say that in the script that he was like, these clowns on the street and that became the deplorables which his opponents have been weaponizing. So then you've got like,

you know, you got like the scene that he takes the gun out of the children's hospital. I mean, kind of a good gag. Funny five comedy parts. What kind of a clown has a gun? I thought that was kind of a funny line. Gets fired from his clown job. Yeah.

He's a clown for hire in, this movie's loaded with like comedy seller guys. It's like Gary Goldman is in it. Sam Morrell. Sam Morrell is in it. I'm forgetting. Greer Garson. Not Greer Garson. Greer. I'm forgetting his last name. Greer Barnes. Who's one of the other clown employees. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes sense if he's

pulling from Marin and whatever. I mean, I don't know. I even thought the club looks kind of comedy seller. It does. It has that vibe. It looks very comedy seller. And he does the bad set of the club, gets made fun of by Murray Franklin on TV. Yeah. This is all. He loves it.

And it's totally believable. She's a real human. She's a real person. Not him. Bad year for Zazie. We've seen this guy as well. What a talent. I mean,

this movie is a huge hit. So I mean, that's good. She is a huge talent. Yeah. And, and then there's the scene, as you say,

where he puts his finger in a child's mouth. Yeah. No, no. This British man comes out. His mom has a stroke. She's hospitalized. No, but here's the big thing. The British man comes out.

It's Alfred. It's Alfred. Yeah, sure. And he goes, look, I'm Arthur Fleck. Yeah, I'm Thomas Wayne's son, you know. Right. He goes, oh, my God, you're Penny Fleck's kid. Right.

And there's that sort of like bone chilling, like things go moment right and then he says like you don't know your mother's fucking crazy she made up this delusional lie she was institutionalized not only that you're adopted right he can't be your father and anytime he learns his information he's always like your mom is crazy and your life is bad. No person, like empathy. A moment, like this is a stranger. You're not going to ruin a stranger's life. You're twisted. You're damaged.

They should tattoo it on your forehead. He goes to the Arkham Asylum. Yeah, talks to Brian Tyree Henry. Another incredibly wasted. Pretty good in the scene. I mean, one of the best working actors. His mom had a stroke because the cops. Remember, remember.

The cops. Right, Bill Camp and Shea Whigum interrogated her too hard. And she had a stroke, right? He goes to Arkham Asami, looks at the file, and then Brian Tyrianne sees something that makes his blood run cold. And he goes, like, you can't see this. Because the file details all this. Abuse he suffered as a child.

Because Joaquin steals the file. And he sees that. And not only that, he sees the clear adoption paper. Right? Now there's almost something in this. For me, okay? And I don't think the movie gets anywhere close to it, but for a second I went oh fuck, is this what they're trying to do?

Because it is talked about a lot in hacky stand-up routines that Batman is kind of this weird Republican fantasy. Sure. That he is an insanely rich man who uses his wealth for good, doesn't need the government meddling,

and takes care of the actual crime, which tend to be a lot of crazy people. Right. But I mean, like, that kind of commentary, which, as you say, happens all the time, is kind of like,

you know, Batman was not initially developed that way because it was like the 40s and, like you know Batman was not initially developed that way because it was like the 40s and like the costume heroes just meant a different but yes. That's stuff that comes with

a character existing for 80 years. Okay the character's gonna end up taking every possible dimension it possibly could. So here's But here's what I want to say. I'm sorry. I know you have a point

you want to make as well. I want to set them up as dual implants. Alright, alright, alright. What do you want to make as well. I want to set them up as dual implants. All right, all right, all right. What do you want to say? The latitude this movie potentially has by being a Joker movie, by being black label DC, by being out of continuity,

is because Batman is not the hero of the film and is barely in it. Sure. A movie could kind of actually try to grapple with that sliver of Batman's legacy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The weird power fantasy and money fantasy of Batman, right? And get your government hands off of, this guy can take it himself. And the idea that someone like Thomas Wayne would have complete impunity to pretty much take advantage of anyone he wants

and could probably use the law and money on his side to cover it up in any way he wanted to okay someone like this could impregnate i know what you're saying yeah i know what you're saying okay have her institutionalized i get it i get it i get it i get it but then well okay so now i and i know the movie wants to exist in the gray area but it also feels like that's just a kind of like a a red herring to set up no actually he is just the most crazy and abused child of the most crazy sure right i mean well and again as we said it doesn't it just can't pick a thing right and instead wants to do this sort of like look i don't know what's true and what isn't yeah which like already joaquin

and todd have sort of dropped that kind of in a few interviews as well where they're like hey maybe Joker made that up. Okay. Who cares? Fine. Yeah. But then. Yeah. The Joker we love him. Yeah. Can you just call him Joker in fact. When you introduce him call him Joker. First he kills a couple

he kills a couple guys or just one guy who visits his apartment. There's that scene. The bloody murder of the you know the big kills a couple guys or just one guy yeah who visited his apartment there's that scene uh bloody murder of the you know the the big big clown guy the little person stuff is it's just so i think that's patronizing and stupid yeah not only that you saw it at a screening at a film festival we saw it at the amc 25 and their their audience lost their fucking shit at the fact that the little person could not reach the locks. And they literally started yelling out, oh my god, he can't reach the locks because he's a midget. Yeah, right, right, right.

That's what I found just kind of. Yeah, so that was a moment where I wanted to sink into the depths of hell. Where the Joker lives? Where the Joker lives. sink into the depths of hell. Where the Joker lives? Where the Joker lives. So there's that scene,

which is another, this movie doesn't have a lot of violence, but it has these brief sort of flashes of violence that are somewhat effective, I guess. It's a slick looking movie. It looks pretty. In my opinion, really bad score that is incredibly over the top and sort of like doing that whole like,

can't you tell this is serious? Yes. Like sort of thing. Yeah. It goes. The costuming, the cinematography, and the production design in this movie are kind of unimpeachable.

And also just a lot of great location shooting, which I really appreciate just generally, but especially for this kind of a movie. The graffiti on the trains, like capturing that era of New York. Todd Phillips acquired Scorsese's producers. Although Scorsese's actually not on it. Right.

Which I think that was probably because he saw where this movie was heading and was like, I don't want to get tied to a thing that doesn't actually know what it's saying. Maybe. I have no idea. I mean, the official excuse was something

along the lines of like, oh, he's got too much going on. But he used a lot of Scorsese. Martin Scorsese, who everyone likes to fucking yell about all the fucking time on the fucking internet, the souvenir this year like you know please check out his like world cinema stuff that's on uh margaret criterion channel he goes to bat for other filmmakers a lot and he is incredibly generous there's another great movie he produced this year

fuck what is it i gotta find it now gotta find it don't you agree that i have to find it a thing that martin scorsese does that I like a lot. Scorchese. A thing that Martin Scorchese does that I like a lot is he knows how much clout he has. Uncut gems. Oh, right. So if he is working with a filmmaker who is taking a step up in budget or studio or whatever, he will often negotiate that he gets final cut.

Because he knows they will not give the director final cut. And he will just say, for example, Joanna Hogg, give me your cut, and I'll tell A24 this is my cut. And I think he doesn't want to extend that kindness

to films that don't need it. Sure, maybe that was was it I don't know I mean he certainly Could have put his money His name on this thing Made a bunch of money But anyway But Todd Phillips

Did use a bunch of his team Sure And they're the best Especially at Working in New York Right Yeah So Joker goes on the talk show

He shoots Murray Franklin Look Shoots him in the eye Yeah Bang bang with a gun Kind of a striking scene in and of itself. Certainly a disturbing and striking scene in and of itself. You're watching two...

Doesn't really have anything to do with anything in this movie. Really. It just didn't feel like the movie had built to this in the correct way at all. It feels like a scene from a different film. But when you're watching it, it's tense. And I'll say this. It felt like the creepiness of watching something like, what's his name, Bud Dwyer. You know?

Yeah. Oh, God. Very depressing. But that feeling of watching a very creepy, grainy video on YouTube of like, you know, a TV tape. Right. Right. What's the movies about Christine? Right.

Right. Like those things. Those weird urban legends. I mean, not urban legends, but like. Those horrible sort of like violent acts on TV. The faces of death. Yes.

During this sequence, I went, this is actually bottling something for me that I don't think the film has earned up until this point.

I don't think it knows what to do with after it's done. But. That's the slickness right it's like yeah it'll get it'll get a rise out of you but watching something very weird about why is this man wearing clown makeup on this talk show watching it from the vantage point of an audience who has no context and isn't watching a joker movie and when they cut out to the grid of

tv screens i go this is kind of an argument for trying to make a quote-unquote gritty Joker movie is how scary would it be if in the real world some guy came on the fucking David Letterman show and seemed like he was Tiny Tim and then got weirdly morose and then shot a guy point blank. Okay, so then what happens after that scene is like a riot breaks out, people wearing Joker masks. Diet breaks out. People wearing Joker masks. It sort of gets tied up, as you say, in this kind of half-baked Occupy Wall Street sort of like, the poor are rising up against the rich. He's already become a cult hero just as...

Because he shot a couple suits in his subway trip. And now he's taken credit for it, and there's a name on his face. And, you know, look. Ricky T. While this is all going on, a couple of rich guys and their kids decided to go see Zorro at a fucking

theater and then we watch for the millionth time as Thomas and Martha Wayne are gunned down that was the first run of their son down to the pearls you beat me to my job down to the fucking pearls why what's your joke I was gonna say David that's

true but they add something to the equation that hasn't been in any of the depictions before, which is the pearls being pulled off. Because it's crazy that everyone feels the need to not only show this fucking scene, but get the fucking pearl insert as well. But it happened not in an alleyway in the other

movies, right? Yeah, no, right. In the other movies, it happened on an escalator. I mean, yeah, no. David, also, massive correction. They don't get killed walking out of a screening of Zorro. They get killed walking out of a screening of Zorro the Gay Blade. Zorro the Gay Blade. The George Hamilton comedy that is What If Zorro

Was Gay, where it's 90 minutes of the kind of very subtle, nuanced, thoughtful gay jokes that only like 1982 could bring that Todd Phillips sensibly loves. The cancel police came for Zara the gay blade. And they drove him out.

It's true. You can't be a gay blade anymore. You can't be a gay blade. It's a reason all the best gay blades have given up. When that happened I had no idea that they were going to do that. I neither. I threw my hands up and I looked at them and I went are you fucking kidding me? So you were not spoiled.

I did not know that was going to happen. You were fear. You had told me, you confessed that you were afraid something had been spoiled for you. Someone tweeted something about the Thomas Wayne Joker's mom thing. Oh, I see. No, that's not. I just could not believe when I was watching this movie that had been so

laboriously like, we're not a comic book movie where, you know, this is really a standalone so laboriously, like we're not a comic book movie where, you know, this is really a standalone. Then I'm like, Oh, but you had to kill the Wayne family for the 50th time. Yeah.

And then like, I guess suggest that like, like, you know, cause like classically in any Joker origin in the comics, especially in killing joke. Yeah. He,

Batman is tied to his origin. Yes. He's robbing a place, a chemical plant in both the fifties origin. They kind of gave him in Killing Joke. Batman is tied to his origin. He's robbing a place, a chemical plant, in both the 50s origin they kind of gave him and then the 80s origin. Batman's already at large. Batman is there to catch him and he dives into the chemical plant or falls in a way.

That's why he's always focused on Batman. That's sort of like the original. And so now I guess it's just like they're tied together in that way like Batman either they're brothers or or yeah let me ask you this

it's just it feels like the movie like having this final like how profound and you're just like I don't think that's anything well here's the thing I think if they were actually the legitimate and illegitimate son of Thomas Wayne the movie could make some kind of statement

about nature versus nurture. But it's not gonna No, it's not doing it. And it wouldn't do it with nuance. It's really not doing that, right. It wouldn't do it with nuance. What else were you gonna say? What I was gonna say is

correct me if I'm wrong I believe Joaquin Phoenix is 49 years old. Sounds about right. And the boy who plays Batman in this looks about I don't know, 10? He's 44 years old. Okay. And the boy is 49 years old. Sounds about right. And the boy who plays Batman in this looks about, I don't know, 10. He's 44 years old. Okay. And the boy is 10, sure.

The boy is 10. So you're saying like Bruce Wayne would have, Thomas Wayne would have had to be like 20? Right. Right, something like that. I mean, Batman never becomes Batman, right? Bruce Wayne never becomes Batman canonically younger than like early 20s. Sure, right.

So even then. He he's gonna be chasing around an old joker at his absolute youngest the first time he puts on the cal joker 60 here's something joaquin phoenix said i am sorry to report it because not that it matters because what i know but i do want to actually just tell you that he said this where he's like what if this movie is like like the j Joker of the comics like sees this and it's his like origin myth like so it's like this is not about like the comic book

Joker okay it's about like a guy in clown makeup who does this thing and becomes like a notorious figure and the other Joker's like drafting off of that or something I don't know he said this in an interview the final scene is him talking to that's April Grace, right? Is it?

Who I love. And he's in the Arkham or whatever. Because the movie ends with the fucking cops have him in the back. Johnny C. and Tempo. It's April Grace, yeah. Johnny C. and Tempo one of the best stunt

coordinators in the business worked worked on The Tick but also worked on most of the Fast and Furious movies and is my source for all the Vin Diesel stories. I will never tell on Mike. Plays the cop who's driving the car and is like, you fucking freak. Where do you get off? But then some clown in an ambulance crashes into the police car and they pull his body out and they raise him to the rafters and he gets a standing ovation. And I went, okay, you know what? Fine. That's what you want. That's what you want for this movie. He takes his bow. He finally gets his

recognition. And then the movie tacks on this extra scene that is just here he is institutionalized. That I've seen a couple people suggest like, what if that's the only real scene? And everything else was in his head. Man. Okay, then great

I don't know the movie means less than it already means yeah I don't know maybe he's telling he said isn't that where he says someone you wouldn't get the joke he's laughing and he says you wouldn't get the joke and then you see him running away and he's leaving bloody footprints before he says you wouldn't get the joke it cuts to Bruce in the alleyway with his

dead parents. Oh, yeah. Implying that the thing he is laughing at is... I mean, it's pretty funny. The orphaning of a young child. What a funny movie. And then he's got bloody footprints suggesting that he killed April Grace as well, I guess. And he's dancing and then they chase him. I liked it when there was the old Warner Brothers logo.

I did too. That was the high point of the movie for me. Joker. Joker. You want to do the box office game? No, I too. That was the high point of the movie for me. Joker. Joker. You want to do the box office game? No, I mean I was trying to think of a more interesting thing to do. I mean, we're recording this very soon after. It was released, obviously. I mean, we could try guessing, but I just feel like it's going to be boring.

Come on, give me the five. You know what's another thing I realize where I often struggle more with things that came out in the last couple of months than older releases? It's because so much of my box office memory is tied to the time and place of when a movie came out, and when that is indistinguishable from when we're recording, it hasn't made the imprint yet. Yeah, but give me the five. Okay, number one is

Joker did 96. 96. More than Justice League. Yeah. Number two... What is it? Would be whatever was number one last weekend. And what was that? And was it number one only for that one weekend? Correct. And it was, we're talking about October.

It dethroned Hustlers. Yeah. It was something of... It actually dethroned Downton, really. Oh, of course. Which is number three. Downton, suplexed it. And Hustlers is number four.

It's been a robust October. It has. It's been quite a robust October. Number five is the very high grossing September film but it chapter two

yes finishing out September did you see it chapter two I did not did you see it chapter one I did okay here's the thing

I decided this year and I'm trying not to be a grump but it's just a thing I decided I am not forcing myself out of obligation to go see the big movies that I know I'm not going to like

so I like it chapter one just fine and I heard such roundly negative things about it chapter two that I went I'm going to prioritize seeing smaller things that I think I might like and I will I'll watch it at home sometime they don't need my money I don't need to vote with my dollar for that I don't think I'd enjoy seeing it that much

but what is number two? defeated down to this is weird because it's like for that. I don't think I'd enjoy seeing it that much. But what is number two? Number two. Defeated Downton. This is weird because it's like I've seen marketing for it and I'm like this exists? Yeah. It exists. I made little impression. In two weeks it's made 37 million dollars.

And I already forget that it exists. Downton Abbey beat Rambo and Ad Astra. Which are Ad Astra's 7th and Rambo's 8th here. And this was number one. Ad Astra unsurprisingly has a fairly comfortable worldwide

total because of Brad Pitt's stardom. This weirdly might unlock it for me. Can you tell me what this film did in its first weekend, its number one weekend? I believe it made around $20 million. That's correct. 20.6.

20 on the nug. Mm-hmm. 20 on the nug. All right. Seems like that didn't help. No, it didn't. I thought it would. What a generic number one performance.

Yes. All right. I'll tell you that it's a children's film. Of course. Yes. And I'll tell you that it's a children's film. Of course. Yes. And I'll tell you that it seems to be sort of geared towards an international audience. Abominable. Abominable.

Yes. He's the snowman. He is. Yep. You have Rambo. You have. Wait, he's that serial killer? Yes.

He's the snowman. He gave him all the clues. He gave him all the clues gave him all the clues if only Joker had given us some clues Good Boys is still hanging out in the top 10 what's Good Boys up to

is it cracked to 100 82 oh wow okay but 100 worldwide 107 Lion King did quite well but ended up

basically it was the number one high school new new give it some time I think it's gonna get there yeah it's gonna need It did quite well, but ended up basically a Desert Beauty and the Beast number. It was the number one high school in the world. No. No. Give it some time. I think it's going to get there.

Yeah, it's going to need to hang around. Hobbs and Shaw seems to be done at about 173,758 worldwide. Which we disagree about this. It did very well. Yeah. But it is a big drop from the mainline Fast and Furious entries. Is it? What did Fate make?

Fate was humongous. Fate, I believe, made $1.2 billion. Yeah, it did. But I think, given that they're trying to launch a second franchise, I guess they're probably happy about it. It's not like they cut... It's a terrible movie. It's not a great film. It's not like

they cut the budget a ton. Often these spin-offs it's about coming up with a cheaper satellite. A movie I have not seen that made $18 million. That's more than The Goldfinch. Right? It's more than

The Farewell. Great movie. Are you talking about the highest grossing independent film of the year? Yes. The Peanut Butter Falcon? The Peanut Butter Falcon.

A weird box office phenomenon that I'm not seeing discussed anywhere. It's feel good movie that was at Sundance but made no impression right stars Shia LaBeouf

and Dakota Johnson Bruce Dern that's right John Hawks about a boy who likes wrestling I believe who runs away

he's got Down Syndrome he runs away from his sort of assistant living home or something like that and he's sort of got a rural river guide yeah and runs into and they have like an inspirational

story. I've only seen the trailer once. I have not seen the film. I saw the trailer once. I'm sorry, it was at South by. Okay, I saw the trailer and I went, wow, I will never think about this movie again. And it's done pretty well. 98% on Rotten Tomatoes, the highest grossing independent film of the year. Weird! Has outgrossed

many studio releases. Yeah! That's all. Do you know a single person who's seen the Peanut Butter Falcon? No. Now, here's my thing. I must know a critic who saw it. I don't know. But I've never talked to anyone about it. And it's weird. I guess, at some point, I guess I gotta say, I guess Peanut Butter Falcon's

getting nominated for Best Picture this year. Best Peanut Butter! Right. But it premieres at South By. It doesn't win. I feel like people are like, oh, a charming light film. Right. Yeah. Roadside picks it up. I see the trailer.

I go, oh, cool. That film is going to make four thousand dollars. Right. It's not like Shia LaBeouf. Yeah. Is box office gold. But weirdly, Roadside Attractions has kind of cornered a market. Yeah.

On selling Indy to the heartlands. Yeah, right, right, right. And I think they wisely recognized this is another mud. Right. Mud, a much better film, I presume, a film I love,

but that kind of surprise out-of-the-box success where that was a movie that played at eight festivals, no one bought it, wasn't seen as commercial, and then did 20 million plus. And Roadside has also

had more success selling faith-based films than most studios and studio arms. So I think... Right, I think Peanut Butter Falcon is just not targeted to us. I think we're the coastal elites. We're the Thomas Wayans and our ivory towers.

So the Jokers of the world are... I don't mean to slander the Peanut Butter Falcon. We need to cut it out with the coastal elitescon we all know that the Joker's favorite movie is Joker that is the only movie he would like I'm sure Murray Franklin did like a road to movie or whatever right

like he did like a sort of Bob Hope movie at some point in his career what if De Niro is like off the success of Joker I'm gonna make a Murray Franklin franchise off the success of Joker, I'm going to make a Murray Franklin franchise. Off the success of Miami nomination for playing Robert Mueller in SNL, I will join the cast of SNL full time. We're going to use the de-aging technology

from the Irishman to make The Young Adventures of Murray Franklin. Is it Murray Anderson? I don't know. Whatever. No, it's Murray Franklin, I believe. Okay, whatever. Final thoughts.

Don't like it. Best one of the year. No, I was like, I mean, I was watching it. I was like, I mean, I was watching and I was like, I think this is a four for me. I think there are enough individual elements that I can respect taken on their own that I can't completely

throw the movie out. But I don't think the movie in and of itself has any real weight or thought or value. I was kind of astonished by how little there was. And as I was saying to you right before we recorded, I was like last night in my bathroom being like,

I think I know what my final summation on this movie is going to be. Right. Having not seen it, and I watched the film, and all of that was thrown out. Because I thought I was going to watch a film that was well-made and was dangerous in sort of its intent. Right, yeah. And instead, I saw a movie that kind of is just shitting on the stage

and throwing shit at the audience and going, like, if you don't get this, you're a fucking square. And then just basically poking at all, like, truly scary people out there. And also saying, this is art, you have to take this seriously. Yep. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, we were talking to producer Rachel,

and she was like, how is it, do I have to see it? And we were like, no. And she's Rachel, and she was like, how is it? Do I have to see it? And we were like, no. And she's like, is it what I think it is? And we're like, it's a movie that yells at you that it is what you think it is. But it's not a very convincing argument. You know what's a better story that's like this? Read Franz Kafka's Metamorphosis. Yes.

Metamorphosis. Metamorphosis. Watch Taxi Driver. To watch Taxi Driver to watch Taxi Driver you know what's a great work we were talking about as we were walking in Stephen Sondheim's Assassins the favorite musical of those three bros that Joker killed on

that subway train is a musical about presidential assassins and it is very messy it was controversial at the time people thought they were glamorizing unsavory people but it is very messy. It was controversial at the time. People thought they were glamorizing, unsavory people. But it is a work that actually tries to grapple with the psychosis of people on the fringes of society. Love, love a sense.

That is a master artist actually putting a lot of thought into what they're saying and the weight of what they're making. Because that's the whole thing. When Todd Phillips goes, oh, it's a heist movie, we're using the Joker as a shield to be able to get a $60 million drama made within the studio system. The thing he is not thinking about is the vehicle you're using to that end is a huge fucking franchise. It is a character that has a lot of cultural weight and a lot of cultural messiness. The most cultural weight.

And as one would say with great power comes great responsibility right and if you're gonna fucking use the joker to make your big movie you kind of got to think about what you're saying now todd phillips does not care about that he doesn't right that's what i'm saying not at all i'm saying that's what you're saying that to todd phillips i can just imagine the extent to which he would jerk off uh invisible penis so rigorously. Viciously. No, I'm not saying I twist my face. I'm saying one

should think about that. Yeah. And he doesn't. I don't know. That's the Joker. We're done with that. I don't know. I mean, it's like, do we ever cover a DC film again? No. Yeah, I love that idea. Let's not do it anymore. I'm out. I actually took

Birds of Prey which looks you know at least like something I think it looks like something off the schedule yeah I'm done talking about these movies

I guess well the real question is that's the question it's like Aquaman 2 and Wonder Woman 2 Aquaman 2 and Wonder Woman 2 are sort of and the

well don't forget and we like James Gunn alright so fine let me clarify we like James Gunn's tweets we don't. Let me clarify. We like James Gunn's tweets. We don't have to set hard and fast rules for ourselves. But like, Birds of Prey is one of those things where I'm like, that looks like

a pretty fun or somewhat competent movie. Like, it's sort of that thing where I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I'm automatically like, you know, it's going to be so bananas that we need to talk about. What I found interesting was the shambling mass of DC trying to make a cohesive thing. And that is gone.

For the better, probably. If anything good comes out of the Joker, I hope it is that they greenlight some fucking Elseworlds movies. That they let someone make Superman, Red Son, or President Luther. What about Jokers? There's many. I mean, you joke, but... That's probably going to get pitted. My point is, what I don't want to see is like...

I don't fucking know. I don't want to see Abel Farrar's freeze. You know? With walking, maybe? That sounds good. That sounds actually great. I don't want to see the twisted version, but there are great standalone DC stories

that could make good $60 million more high-end dramatic films. And it would be nice if the success of this movie encourages them to do that. I worry it will just be more empty provocation. Yeah.

Let's never speak of Joker again. I love that idea. Great. Wrap it up. Wait a second. Are you telling me? Yeah, you can. We're raising it to the rafters.

Yes. Oh my God. Retired bit. It's up there. Ricky T. So long. Sayonara, sucker. Thank you all for listening.

Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew Gooder for our social media lead and Mike Irving for our theme song. Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for our artwork. Next week, Gemini Man. A very, very different movie. Lovely movie compared to this. Yeah.

Very optimistic and sunshiny movie in a weird way. We got Ant-Man and the Wasp coming up on the old Patreon feed. Blink-Tick special features. I think we have Whisper of the Heart first. Oh, we got Whisper of the Heart with our old friend Ramona Head. Legendary member. That just posted. So yeah, we will have Ant-Man and the Wasp.

Of our trivia team walking penis. Look, it all ties together. And then Ant-Man and the Wasp coming at the end of the month. Yeah, we just posted that. So, right. Look forward to Ant-Man and the Wasp. Next week, Gemini Man, goodbye. Never want to speak of Joker again.

Yeah. Did you guys think Joker's kind of like Trump? No, no, no. Enough. Enough. Stop. No, seriously, it's retired. But can I just say, to end our episode as we should, formally. Ah. And as always.

I'm still around. What? Remember me? No. Richard T. Bain. No.