Blank Check with Griffin & David - Lincoln

Episode Date: May 8, 2017

Griffin and David look to Spielberg’s 2012 historical drama, Lincoln. But exactly how many Abraham Lincoln biographies did screenwriter Tony Kushner read? Does this movie remind one of a long winded story about an old mill? Was Liam Neeson really considered for the lead role? Together they examine the great facial hair, Hal Holbrook’s wet eyes, Dan Lewis’ process for getting into character and the many blankets used in this movie.

I'm the president of the United States of America, clothed in immense podcast. I don't know. I fuck. Griffin is a try to get this right for 10 minutes, folks. That was my 20th attempt. So you look like I would have fired you. Wasn't it so much easier? Do you feel like Liam Neeson?

You want to fire yourself? Yes, I want to fire myself. Wasn't it so much easier when everyone disagreed that Abraham Lincoln talked like this? Right. I'm the president. I'm the president. Slavery is bad. And then now we know it's wrong. I'm the president. I'm the president. Slavery is bad. And then now we know it's wrong.

I am immense power. I am the president. Look, now, now, now. I can't do it. Now, now, now. Now, now. I can't do it either. The blood on our hands.

I can't do it. I can't do it. Hi, everybody. My name is Griffin. And I can't do it. My name's David Simpson. I can't do it either, but I didn't really try. We are capable

of doing one thing and that's hashtag being the two friends. We're also capable of doing another thing which is hosting the podcast Blank Check. Blank Check with

Griffin and David. Right. Lest you forget. Clothed in immense power. Yes. This is a podcast about directors, filmographies,

people who have massive success early on and are given a series of blank checks by Hollywood to test out their limits, their creative limits. Okay. I'm trying variations here.

Sometimes those checks clear. They do. Sometimes they do. Sometimes the checks clear. Often. Sometimes they bounce, baby. Also often. But we are going through

the filmography of students one film at a time. We're nearing the end of our miniseries. Pod me if you cast. Pod me if you cast. It's only the films that Spielberg made after he founded DreamWorks. Yes. That's right. And we're coming up on the last dying breaths of DreamWorks.

Yes, one of his biggest hits, though. Yeah, weirdly. For sure. Big hit. Greatly outgrossed a lot of on-paper more commercial accessible movies. True. It's interesting. It is interesting. I mean, I would say, like,

on the one hand, like, of course Lincoln's seems like a box office gimme, you know, Stevie Spielberg, Oscar winner, famous president. Like, that's the kind of movie you imagine does well

in the 90s be a big hit. But in 2012, you might not, you might not be so sure. Right? Yes. And Spielberg started

developing a Abraham Lincoln film in 1999. A long time ago. He was working with Doris Kearns Goodwin. Is that her name? Yes. And she said, like,

hey, I'm working on a Lincoln book. And he was like, what's the deal with Lincoln? She started telling him stuff and he was like, cool dude. Into it. Want to make a flick about him.

And for years and years, a series of different screenwriters come through the doors. I think, was Eric Roth working on it for a while? John Logan. John Logan, right. And his version was mostly about

Lincoln's relationship with Frederick Douglass. Yes. I think it was kind of a two-hander. Yes. Paul Webb, a playwright, took a big pass, and they set that up, and they had Neeson.

Liam Neeson was going to do it? Neeson ready, and that was in about 05, 06. And then Spielberg decided he didn't like the script, and so forget it. And that script was more of a classic biopic that was- Span the life. Well, at least the whole presidency. Sure. You know, like Lincoln, the president.

Right. And then, you know, Stevie had just worked with a little nobody by the name of Tony Kushner, a little Pulitzer Prize winning nobody, on the film Munich. And he said, hey, Tony. That's their first collaboration. Right. Hey, Tony, this is how Steven Spielberg talks. We haven't done his accent yet on the show.

But hey, Tony, what do you think Lincoln? Yeah, this is how Spielberg talks. Now, now, now. I want that draft now. And Tony Kushner's like, oh, yeah, yeah, Lincoln, he's a good guy. I'll take a look. Yeah. Yeah, no, how Spielberg talks. Now, now, now! I want that draft now! And Tony Kushner's like, oh yeah, yeah, Lincoln, he's a good guy. Let me, uh, I'll take a look. Yeah. Yeah, no, he's good.

Kushner stopped unloading those boxes down at the docks and took a pass at the Lincoln story. Lincoln, yeah, I knew that guy. And he said that he knew almost nothing about Lincoln but knew that he really liked him. And so he wanted to try to figure out what it was that made him feel such affinity for a man that he knew very little about

other than the very obvious accomplishments, right? So Kushner buries himself in Lincoln material. For years, just reads like every fucking book on Lincoln. And yeah, in 2008, he joked that he was on his 967,000th book about Abraham Lincoln. Right. And he submits a 500-page draft, which, to be clear

would be a film that was about 8 or 9 hours long. Just put to page. Page to screen. And this is, so this time between like 2006 and 2011 where the film finally gets rolling, there were

these sort of series of legendary table reads. Like once a year or maybe twice a year Spielberg would sort of series of legendary table reads. Like once a year or maybe twice a year, Spielberg would sort of send out the beacon and you'd get this crazy ensemble cast of like 40 or 50 great actors, right? Obviously, Neeson and Sally Field, but then like I know at one point, Alden Ehrenrich was reading the Joseph Gordon-Levitt part. I know like Maria Bamford has talked about the fact that she was called in to play like all the sort of small female roles. Oh, hello!

I'm, you know, a maid! Yeah, okay. But there'd be these weird calls. Maria Bamford impression? There'd be these, yeah. It sounds a lot like Dale Day-Lewis' Lincoln. It's not what Maria Bamford sounds like. Sheis is Lincoln. It's not what Maria Bamford sounds like. She sounds like this.

Yeah, she's got a little. This is her. I don't, that's not good either. I don't know, I fucking give up. It was okay.

I'm never gonna get on Mad TV. She, it just said, like, she got the call out of nowhere. Sure. and, like,

that would just happen. People would be like, do you want to read a part in Lincoln? They'd be like, oh my god, holy shit. They'd read it, and they'd be like,

does this mean I'm getting cast in a movie? And then nothing would happen for three years. You know, it'd just go on and on and on. And then 2009, very shortly after... Natasha Richardson. It's in 2010. July 2010. Natasha Richardson,

his wife, Liam Neeson's wife, had died a year earlier, sadly. In a very tragic freak accident. Also a year earlier, had this crazy career revival with Taken. Yep, suddenly he's Mr. Taken. He's in a weird space because on one hand, he's the most bankable he's ever been and he's now like an action leading man. On the other hand, he's going through a devastating emotional heartbreak. Right.

And he's said since then that he dealt with it by working as much as he could. Right, yes. He just sort of took any project that was thrown at him. Right. But I think there's a difference between like being like, fuck it. I'm going to do Unstoppable. Right. I'll do that one.

No, not Unstoppable. Non-stop. Non-stop. Non-stoppable. There's a difference between- Don't worry about it, Ben. Yeah. Don't worry about producer Ben.

Ben Dusser. Poet Laureate. Mr. Positive. The Haas. Mr. Positive. Birthday Benny. The Tiebreaker. Third Bikeer. Poet laureate. Mr. Positive. The Haas. Mr. Haasitive. Birthday Benny. The Tiebreaker. Dirtbag Benny.

Soaking Wet Benny. White Hot Benny. Soaking Wet Benny. The Fart Detective. The Meat Lover. And this episode's very personal for you because you are, of course, we know, a close personal friend of Dan Lewis. Absolutely.

You're also the peeper. Yeah. You see you in the sheets called You the Fuckmaster. Yeah. You see you on the streets wish you a hello fennel do not call him Professor Crispy

don't do it David don't do it I stand by that you're being a rebel rouser here I'm a radical you're the Thaddeus Stevens of this episode he has of course graduated certain titles over the course of different main series such as Producer Ben, Kenobi, Kylo Ben I'm a radical on this podcast. You're the Thaddeus Stevens of this episode. He has, of course, graduated certain titles over the course of a different many series,

such as producer Ben Canove, Kylo Ben, Ben I. Chomelon, Ben's Eight. I like to see David going through this. Save anything. I'm in the room with this. Ailey Ben's with a dollar sign. Yeah, good. Great. Hey, I'm here. We're going to need a Spielberg name for you soon, Ben.

That's true. Yeah, what are we going to do? I don't know. I don here. We're going to need a Spielberg name for you soon, Ben. That's true. What are we going to do? I don't know. I don't know what stands out to me. Yeah, we'll have to think through it. Just taking a brief sort of glance at the films we've covered. Catch Me If You, Ben? You know, we already did.

I know. Come on. I mean, Saving Private Ben. Ryben, character in Saving Private Ryan a great character Ed Burns' character Brooklyn Boy? One of the top 20 characters in Saving Private Ryan

I'd say probably, unquestionably for me one of the top 20 characters that Ed Burns has ever played I think it might be the best character Ed Burns has ever played That is a much worse list What about that McMullen fuck? Brother McMullen motherfucker. Right.

Neeson, you know, was throwing himself into action films but I think to throw himself into a project that was this manding. He claims... He says no.

He says he fired himself. He just thought it was too... He was too old and it was ridiculous for him to play Abraham. He's at this table where he says it's like a lightning bolt moment

and he goes, I can't do it. And everyone goes, oh oh fuck the movie's not going to happen now it already was stretched out over so many years who do they get to replace Liam Neeson and Stevie throws a Hail Mary pass a man he had previously corresponded with about playing the role and every time he

had gone immense honor thank you for thinking of me can't do it not interested yeah I don't think he said it was preposterous right Spielberg makes one final plea, a handwritten letter, and Del Ndelewis finally. I'm sorry. Actually, no, that's not the full story.

Okay, Ben, what happened with your friend? I got a call from Steven. Okay. And I said, all right, I'll put in a call to Dan. I called Dan. I said, Dan, check it out. Listen, I know you're worried about playing a presidential, you know, like important figure in American history. I mean, I get it.

He's an Irishman. You're an Irish guy. You're representing this huge figure in really world history. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a lot. It's a lot to put on your shoulders.

But baby, you're Dan Lewis. And I pepped him up and he did it. This used to be No Bits podcast. I just want to get that on there. Yeah. Well, thank you, Ben Lewis. And I pepped him up and he did it. This used to be a No Bits podcast. I just want to get that on the record. Well, thank you, Ben, for your service. Yeah, no bits. Come on. This used to be a No Bits podcast.

Oh, you're right, though. Yeah. Since we've revisited the best of. Yeah, yeah. We've sort of brought that back, huh? Well, let's just say, I mean, the show used to be a lot more serious than it is now. Right. And I think it might be time

to buckle down and get a little more focused. Question, though. Yeah. Question, though. Lock the gates? That sort of seems like... We haven't done that in a while.

That seems like a bit. That's a great bit. We should do it right now. Lock the gates. Now, now, now. Clothed in immense gates. I don't know. Locked in immense gates. don't know Locked in immense gates

Alright This is seriously still No bits Okay No bits Alright enough So Dan Lewis is like Yeah sure

I guess he hadn't made a movie since 9 Right Maybe he's thinking like I don't want 9 to be the last movie I made Cause there's always this thing When Dale Day-Lewis makes a movie Where it's like Maybe he just doesn't make a movie ever again.

Like, it's always possible. Nine, more like four. Yeah. At best. I think that's even general. Generous. I think I'd give it a three. I just think Daniel Day-Lewis would give it a four.

Yes. He was in it. Yeah. Nine's also, I know we've been talking about Nine a lot recently for whatever reason. Nine was also an example of, it was developed for years as Javier Bardem, and then Javier Bardem dropped out, and they were like, why make it was developed for years as Javier Bardem

and then Javier Bardem dropped out and they were like, why make it if you can't get Javier Bardem? Who would be a better choice than Javier Bardem? And then they were like, Daniel Day-Lewis. Everyone was like, oh shit! This movie just got real! And then everyone saw it and they were like this was a bad idea. Daniel Day-Lewis is undoubtedly

the number one actor who, if he's in a movie, you are interested in it. as if a famous director is making a movie. You take it seriously. It's like, oh, Daniel Day-Lewis wants to do something. Right. He hasn't made a movie since Lincoln. He is now making a movie again with Paul Thomas Anderson, who directed him in There Will Be Blood. But, yeah, five years ago, Lincoln, that was his last performance.

Takes it easy. It was even surprising at the time that Nine came only two years after, or three years after. Nine is the weirdest thing in the world. He worked with a bad director to be in a part he was all wrong for, like in a musical, which no one really figured him for. That's the only, I mean, no, he's made all the decisions that are a bit of a head scratcher. Scratched my head. Sure. But that was a real head scratcher. Scratch my head. Sure. But that was a real head scratcher.

Well, I'll tell you, I fell down a weird YouTube rabbit hole watching nine clips the other night because I was just like, wait, he was in a fucking musical. And everyone makes fun of like, oh, the Dale Day-Lewis process, how deep he immerses himself.

You know, he goes off into the wilderness and whatever. Yeah. But like, you look at someone like Lincoln and it's like, okay, he spent some time like thinking about that character building it he ran for office right and then he held a series of debates around the country with uh no you go ahead you look at nine and you look at how shortly it came after there will be blood and you're like yeah maybe he does need that many

years to like maybe he just needs four or five years to just spool up you know yeah you watch nine and you're like that character's not totally big maybe he just wanted out a Daniel Plainview yeah well the other thing is in Nine he's playing a musical character

that had been originated by Raul Julia and then was played on Broadway by Ben Derriss which I saw on stage and he was wonderful um

so he wasn't playing like his character that he could like create from the ground up but maybe that I don't know I mean also it's just kind of a crappy movie Rob Marshall's kind of a crappy director he is buddies with Steven Spielberg though

so maybe that was part of why Spielberg got him on board for Lincoln and I will say this too Daniel Lewis does have a nice singing voice I think he looks uncomfortable in those musical numbers but I actually think he has a quite lovely voice. I think he just was like, maybe I should just sing.

Like, you know? You think he was just in the shower one day? Yeah, and then was like, and then he went, He's like, wait a second. I gotta share this with the people. Alright. Lincoln is shot in 2011. It comes out in 2012.

They bring back Sally Field. Yeah. Sally Field basically, like, stood outside Steven Spielberg's house being like, I will be playing Mary Todd Lincoln and you're not going to stop me. Well, because she was the right age at the time they started developing the project. Right. Yeah, because she's too old for the role now, which is pretty rare that you have an actress who is too old for a role.

Yeah. And she's like, I've been living with this character for like, you know, fucking like seven, eight years. I'm ready to do it. I'm ready to gain the weight. She is 11 years older than Daniel Day-Lewis. Yeah. Yeah. But they make it fucking work.

No, I think they do. Yeah, and then they add a fucking murderer's row of actors. The cast in this movie is insane. Every scene. Look, I mean, he's been doing it before, but this, yeah, this cast is terrific. This is the one where you're like, wait, Walton Goggins is being introduced this late? Well, it's just because it's a show.

It's a movie about a congressman and various, like, civil servants, secretaries of state and war that you can just have, you know, Spielberg can just be like, hey, Walton, you ever wanted to be in a Steven Spielberg movie? I got two scenes for you. You know, right? Like, show up. Yes. Well, A, I mean, honored to wanted to be in a Steven Spielberg movie? I got two scenes for you. You know, right? Like, show up. Yes.

Well, A, I mean, honored to work with him. B, I think honored to work with Daniel Day-Lewis. Like, everyone wants to see that guy working up close. There are a million characters within the story, naturally. But also, because it's Kushner and it's such a verbose movie. The thing is, Mary Todd Lincoln was nine years older than Abraham Lincoln. Really? Yes.

So it does make sense. It does make sense. Want to was nine years older than Abraham Lincoln. Really? Yes. So it does make sense. It does make sense. Want to get that on the record. Okay. Wow. I think I knew that. It was seen as an unusual match at the time. And it's part of the reason a lot of people think Abraham Lincoln was gay. And hence Log Cabin Republican

because Abraham Lincoln was born in a log cabin. That's all scurrilous, but that is where they came up with the idea. Yeah. You're with me, Benny? Yeah. What I was going to say is that because this is a Kushner script

and it has such a love of language, even if you're a day player in this movie, it's not like the part's like, hey, Mr. Lincoln, call for you. Like, anyone who has one line in this movie is such an exquisitely written piece of language that it's like, even if you're only working a day you're gonna get to

dig in right it's like you're being given a nice pate right it's like driver's part in the film yes like he stands out and he's memorable and it's like a small little dialogue why wouldn't you do that one scene you get to act with Daniel Day-Lewis you get to be directed by Steven Spielberg and your dialogue is interesting what if you're Adam Driver and it's like they call you like you wanna be a telegraph operator

he's like nope Abraham Lincoln only. I am offer only for presidents. But you hear I have to have my shirt off. I'll play Andrew Johnson his vice president who became president. That counts. I'll play the president of the Confederacy. Andrew Johnson completely

absent from this movie. There was a rumor for a long time that Harrison Ford was playing Andrew Johnson. Even like before the film was released after it had been shot they were like they're keeping it secret but Ford's in the movie as.

Interesting. Strange, strange idea. Would have been exciting though if he showed up and was like in a real movie. You know, Andrew Johnson though.

He's an asshole. He's kind of, yeah. He's kind of a. Listen Lincoln. Also, Andrew Johnson was like a real southern gentleman. Like, real southern.

And I don't really buy Harrison Ford as like a real southern dude. True. Famously got drunk at his inauguration, Andrew Johnson. Oh, I thought you meant Harrison Ford. Well, I mean, you know, he's not the president yet. Do you want to hear my impression of Harrison Ford doing a southern accent just because you said you think he can't do it? Goes a little something like this. Goes a little something like this.

Get off my fan boat. That was not worth one second of anyone's time. That was great. Thank you, Ben. I'm giving it two comedy points. Sure, two. Okay, I can buy two. But Kushner makes this, you know, as he's developing the script, he goes like, what

if I only focus on the last four months of Lincoln's life? Well, I think, right, Kushner sends this 500-page script. Spielberg's like, look, a lot of good stuff here. I'm not going to make an eight-hour movie as much as that might be fun. Maybe he should have. I don't know. In my opinion, he should make a sequel to this movie. I think I tweeted this

starring Jared Harris as Ulysses Grant. I would love to see that movie. Jared Harris in three scenes. He is arresting. Well, you know, Jared Harris has talked about this a lot.

But like, just independently, he's just like, let's do it, Steve. Not Spielberg doing it, but I think he was on, he locked the gates with Marc Maron.

And in his WTF episode, Jared Harris, like... Maron was like, Oh, you had a small part in Lincoln. You played Grant. That must have been exciting, right? And he was like, I did a lot of research.

I took that seriously. Yeah, sorry. I was in Lincoln. I'm sort of doing a decent job. I'll say this. I don't know if it's going to play if you can only hear the voice, but the face and the body language you're doing right now is so Jared Harris.

He's pretty good in Allied. Yeah, he's such a good actor. Allied Oscar nominee. This is our first podcast after the Oscar nominee. Yeah, should have gotten more. No. Yeah. No, no.

Also very good in Certain Women. Great in Certain Women. His last in Certain Women. Great in Certain Women. His last in Certain Women. Great in Certain Women. Phenomenal. And a great example of Jared Harris. He can do any accent. He'll play anyone.

So of course he can play President Grant. Yes, he said that he really is fascinated by President Grant as a man and is very desperate to try to play him again. He wants to. He's not going like, oh, I'm calling up Steven every day. He's not pulling like a Tom Arnold True Lies 2 where he's begging the director to bring him back. But he has talked about that he would

like to play that character in full. I'm all for it. Me too. All for it. Jared Harris is, how old is he? 55? Yeah. Grant died. He was in the 60s. Great. We got time. So yeah, they focus up the script. They decide to make it mostly about the 13th Amendment. They make it about, right, right after his reelection in 1865,

the three months spent on passing the 13th Amendment, which abolished slavery. Right. Before the war ended. Right. They sort of raced against time to get it through before the war ended so that when the South rejoined, it would be in the Constitution and they wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

Which is that period of time is contained within the last four months of his life. Right, and then he went and got himself shot. Yeah, he went and saw a play, if you catch my drift. I don't catch your drift. Much like, you know, Fidel Castro saw a play last year. You're saying Fidel Castro was assassinated by a disgruntled actor? No, I'm using saw a play as he... Just to mean died.

Death, yeah. I see. He was actually one of the, like, lead or, like, the best actors of the time. Right, right. It would be like, it wasn't like Tom Cruise, but it would be like if Michael Shannon shot you or something. Like a very respected actor. Right, right.

Jared Harris was just like, I've had enough of you, Abraham Lincoln. Well, do the Jared Harris impression. It's just sort of this groan. What was the first thing? I guess the first thing I saw him in was when he played John Lennon. Way back when. Oh, in

Backbeat? Backbeat, yeah. That's like from the 90s. He's been around for... He's in Dead Man, and I'd love and have seen Dead Man, but I don't remember him in it. He was trucking around for years and years and years. Anyhow. The movie we're talking about today is Lincoln, the film that they ended up making.

It's called Two of Us. Backbeat's a different one. Oh, right. He did the one that was him in... Okay, thank you. Backbeat is with Ian Hart, I think. Yes. And Stephen Dorff. Ian Hart is also a very good, very underrated actor.

Ian Hart's an excellent actor who doesn't seem to want to do a lot of acting. No, he was... He did a lot of TV and stuff. He was in the pilot of Vinyl and I did not recognize him. I just didn't put together that it was him and he was fucking phenomenal to watch work. So why wasn't he

in the rest of Vinyl? I don't know. I have no idea. But lovely guy. Fucking unbelievable actor. Cool. Alright, Lincoln. Can I throw out my first complaint about this movie? You have a complaint? I do. This is a great movie.

Too good? I have two complaints about this movie. I know, it is too good. I have two complaints about this movie, and they're not major. And one of them might be really fucking petty. Okay. That you're not in it? I'm sorry, Griffin.

I auditioned to play Lincoln. To play Lincoln? When Neeson dropped out. They were just sweating Day-Lewis, though. I sent in a self-tape. Look, we'd like you to play Lincoln. We have Lincoln? When Neeson dropped out. They were just sweating Day-Lewis, though. I sent in a self-tape. They were like, look, we'd like you to play Lincoln. We have this guy. We got a good guy.

He's an unknown, Griffin Newman. Now, now, now. Go ahead. They said, you know, Griffin Newman, who played the third lead in Beware the Gonzo? All right, what is your complaint? My complaint is people talk about this movie as if it's a biopic. I would argue this is not a biopic. Okay. I would argue that this movie is a film about the passing

of the 13th Amendment in which Abraham Lincoln is the lead character. It's a historical drama. Right. In the same way that Selma is not a Martin Luther King film. Sure. Fine. Fair enough. It's more of a 13th Amendment passage biopic than it is. I mean, a classic biopic of of course, would be like you open on a log cabin. Sure.

And they give birth and they're like, oh, very presidential looking baby. Right, right. He comes out and they put a stovepipe out. Right. Like Selma is a movie about the Selma Marches in which the lead character is Martin Luther King. Yes. Junior. Super fucking petty.

What? But it irks me then that the movie is called Lincoln. That is very petty. I prefaced it by saying it was. That is a stupid. Ben, will you just lean in right now and say that's a really stupid opinion? That's a stupid opinion. You gotta market a movie.

I mean, Jesus. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. Come on. But I would call it Lincoln versus the 13th Amendment. He was in favor of it. That's the twist.

They team up. It's an early twist in that movie. It's like X2, X-Men United. Magneto and Wolverine have to work together. It's not really a twist in X2. It's more of like a plot element that is then discarded. They have to beat Striker! What was that? It could be like

Lincoln's Last Days. That could be a terrible... God! That sounds like a Gus Van Sant movie. Well, that's what I was trying to say. It's like Lincoln in bed just being like, I don't know what to do with myself. Well, there's the John Ford, Henry Fonda movie, Young Mr. Lincoln.

That is explicitly about him as a young man. Kind of like how Barry is about only young Barack Obama or whatever. Right. When, yeah, before he changed his name to Barack. Yeah. They could have called this movie The Old Mr. Lincoln or The As Old As He Was Ever Gonna Get Mr. Lincoln. They called this movie Lincoln wisely. Okay.

What's your second complaint? It better be better than that one. Yes, it is. Uh-huh. But it's on that same path. Is it that they shouldn't have done the last scenes? I think I agree with that. I think you guys would all agree with that. That's for sure. I think the movie should end

10 minutes earlier, and I think there are a couple other little moments across the way of the film that I'll get to when I get to them, where I feel like it is making sort of biopic gestures. I think that's the only major one, and I do think it's an error. Spielberg makes the same error in Bridge of Spies. It's a much more minor

error, where it's like, yo, why this last scene? You literally edited the film with an ending. Like, the film literally ends, and then it cuts to a new scene. Like, it fades, you know, you're like, good, good. It's the most satisfying dramatic payoff that the movie could have.

It's the thing the whole movie's been teasing. We'll get to that in Bridge of Spies, obviously. And boy, I can't wait. Oh, what a- Have we been tracking this, though, with Steven throughout the miniseries? Yes, yes. Because I feel like it's been coming up with a lot of the recent episodes. It's a common complaint, especially the one-two punch of A.I. and Minority Report.

The common complaint about those movies became, like, ah, too many endings. Like, even though I would dispute maybe some of those. Some of those films. And I think Munich, people complain about the sex scene at the end. Very often it's like the last. Munich has the sex scene

and then the scene where Geoffrey Rush approaches him and is like, so, good job, right? And he was like, no, I didn't like it. And we're like, yeah, well, we got that already. And it's not a bad scene, but you're just kind of like, we know, we get it. Well, and we're like yeah well we got that already you know and it's a not a bad scene but you're you're just kind of like we know we get it well and i feel like people used to have that complaint about catch me if you can too i mean the other thing is again as well it has too

many endings i feel like it does i feel like every spielberg movie we've covered has had that complaint essentially maybe save for 10 it's just i think it's partly a problem of being steven spielberg i agree not a ton of people are going to say no to you yeah maybe if you're a slightly less well-known director someone will be like honestly like let's end it right here right whatever and i think with time and distance some of those movies have been and the endings have been re-evaluated and they go oh actually the ending isn't what it seems to be minority report i would say are the the best ones right in that yeah but i think it also falls you know, this thing we've been talking about is this whole period of Spielberg's career, right?

Like, post Schindler's List, he starts his own studio, he has this money, he's gotten taken seriously as an adult director, right? He's gotten out of his, like, popcorn. Big boy director. Yes. Let's use the formal term. He's a big boy director. Yeah, he's a big boy director. He starts making these movies that exist in moral shades of gray about unanswerable questions.

All the movies are about that, right? Really. I mean, pretty much every movie in this miniseries. And this is the beginning of what I would call Spielberg's constitution phase. Yes. Yes. And it's also he becomes a real classicist. I mean, he starts going like, I want to make fucking John Ford, Capra, Howard Hawks movies.

I want to make Capra movies. Yeah. Right. You know? But with a little more, maybe a little more sort of like of a questioning, like, you know. Yeah. Shades of gray kind of element to them. Like maybe a little more of a melancholy tone.

But at the time that everyone is starting to like the Amblin homage era is starting to really ramp up. Right. Like Super 8. People are making Super 8. Comes out the same year as this? Or the year before? It's either 11 or 12. I think it's 11, but I can look it up. Super 8 Motel.

Super 8 2011. Okay. So, you know. And then Spielberg produces that. Yes. It's not like that's just a rip-off of him. Spielberg is assisting in the making of a sort of 21st century E.T. But that kick starts this thing of people going like I want to make movies that feel like those old Amblin movies

and people keep on talking about that in interviews right. There's that which is like very explicitly an Amblin homage and same thing with fucking Stranger Things but there are other things in between where like fucking Sean Levy's Real Steel which Spielberg produces as well. He was like I just want to make something that felt like you know all these weird fucking things. Sean Levy now an Oscar nominee which Spielberg produces as well. He was like, I just wanted to make something that felt like you know, all these weird fucking things.

Sean Levy now an Oscar nominee? Yep. For producing Arrival. Hey man. Good job producing that good movie. And he also produced Stranger Things. He's in this phase where he wants to produce other people's stuff. He's actually a decent producer. He actually makes a lot of interesting stuff. I didn't like Stranger Things. I think he has good taste in selecting

projects for other people to make. Anyhow. He's a mediocre director. The point is Spielberg is getting further and further away from the thing that people are trying to homage him for doing. And I feel like he gets stuck in this rut where people are like, oh, it's another one of those Spielberg movies. It's going to be like fucking homework. Like, I feel like there were a lot of people with this and with Bridges' eyes. Yeah, some people take these movies as like broccoli movies right yeah like uncle movies yeah exactly like dad movies i mean bridges by that's a classic what the fuck is this uh i'm sorry i'm not gonna

say what that text was what was it a was it a text that makes you look really cool no no no no no no no um no no no. I think it was. It wasn't. It was from Taylor Swift. We started hanging out. That'd be great. If Taylor Swift dated you, that'd be great. It was a long payoff after saying that I thought we would be friends. Yeah, in Attack of the Podcast.

Yeah, I was correct. We really like each other. Nothing romantic, but we just get each other. So you're like her new Ed Sheeran. You're like her new little shit boy. Yeah, I'm her new shit boy. She parades around. Yeah, exactly. She keeps me on a leash.

Not a fuck boy. It's a shit boy. No, a shit boy. A fuck boy is too good for that. Yeah, she parades me around and then she goes, shit, now! And I pull down my pants

and I shit in the street corner. Which you're great at. I'm really good at that. You barely need to be asked. Yeah, I could shit on a moment's notice. Okay, Lincoln. Lincoln.

Yeah. You're saying it's an Eat Your Vegetables movie. movie oh this is what i was gonna say okay spielberg his his supporters and his detractors all have the same point which we've said a bunch of times which is he's a very emotional visceral director right he's an expressive director he hits fine points about like you know the ambling catharsis okay here's the payoff here's the that right when he's an expressive director he hits fine points about like you know the ambling catharsis okay here's the payoff here's the that right when he's making these movies that exist in these areas of moral grayness sure i think he sometimes doesn't trust himself to not end it with a very clear statement that's fair right so yeah a little bit look even if it isn't verbalized

there's some visual moments at the end of this that are just like too much paprika in the sandwich, so to speak. Too much paprika in the sandwich. Look, here's my thing. Yeah. Catch me if you can. Ending goes on a little while.

Not sure he needs to visit his goddamn family home again somehow completely implausibly. No, don't, let me finish.

Thought that way at the time, now I think it works. It's okay. It basically works. But in Catch Me If You Can, I didn't know that that guy,

right, like me, 2002 cinema goer, probably doesn't know that that guy goes on to work for the FBI and figure out, like, interesting. Tell me that. Lincoln. I know that Lincoln got shot. I'm aware.

We all know. A title card is all I need, which is just a month later or whatever. I don't need everyone to be like, oh, Lincoln's dead. Don't you want to see his young son react to the news that his father was assassinated? We're crying out loud. We are all ready for that. It's a famous thing about Abraham Lincoln

is that he got assassinated. And also the movie has dramatically concluded itself. Yes. If you want to make a movie about his assassination, like Robert Redford did with The Conspirator. You can totally do that. Like Oliver Stone did with JFK. One can do that.

That's a different movie. But I don't need him walking, you know, and then it's like, what's that? Whatever. Fine. But that falls into, like, my complaint isn't. Otherwise, perfect movie. My complaint isn't that literally the movie is called Lincoln and that's a complaint. That was your complaint. My complaint is that you goddamn no my point is now i am a goddamn lincoln log and i can lay a

lincoln log in a moment's notice my point is that i feel like that is emblematic of that pressure of like we're trying to make the definitive lincoln movie let's call it lincoln let's include the assassination at the end like 90 of the movie is so focused on what it's trying to do and what it isn't trying to do. And then 10% feels like. Okay. The Joseph Gordon-Levitt side plot doesn't work for me. 95.5. Yes.

I think that also falls into like biopic territory. Yeah. The Joseph Gordon-Levitt plot is interesting. Yeah. It doesn't work. It feels really didactic to me. I just think. In a way the rest of the movie doesn't.

I just think it's not. I don't think it's didactic. I just think it's not dramatically as interesting as they think it is. But they want you to know why Mary Todd Lincoln is coming apart at the seams. And so that's why he's there. He's not really there for his stuff, which is, I agree, not that interesting. It's more because she is roiled by the fear of losing a son. And I feel like.

She lost all her children except for one. Yes. Gully McGrath. Yeah. Okay. And so that's why that's there but I agree you know

if I was like trying to fast forward I'd probably I also I feel like I like the legislative stuff yeah I mean there's a courtroom drama

but it's a weird approach to a movie because it's a courtroom drama in which the main character never appears in court no it's a courtroom it's not a court it's like the movie

I know it's not literally a courtroom drama Runaway Jury is that what that movie was called it's about buying off the jurors it's not it's a courtroom it's not a court it's it's like the movie um i know it's not literally runaway jury is that what that movie was called it's about buying off the jurors it's not it's like it's a courtroom drama where the courtroom scenes don't really happen until the verdict so it's more just about lincoln's like let me see these jurors yeah he's a couple you know a couple scenes lee pace peacock and this movie is weirdly structured in a way that i commend it's a very beautifully it's a very odd unconventional approach to how to tell this story well i think we talked about this on amistad this is this is the movie that he wanted to make amistad should be right and obviously i'm so campy because it's look if you're gonna make a white savior movie about slavery yeah

abraham lincoln is probably a better target right for your movie than John Quincy Adams and Matthew McConaughey and a bunch of other randos and some slaves who can't even speak English. You know, like, Amistad's an interesting movie not to be given to Steven Spielberg. Amistad's an interesting movie in someone else's hands, maybe. And he shies away from the dramatic embellishment of Amistad to just be like, this is how things went down.

Like, it's a process movie, which I find interesting. Yeah, right. And yeah, in Amistad to just be like, this is how things went down. Like it's a process movie, which I find interesting. Yeah. Right. And yeah, an Amistad also, it's like a stirring movie with the end is like, and that began the civil rights movement.

And you're like, you do one bit of reading. You're like, no, it didn't. Uh, not the civil rights, but the abolitionist movie,

you know, that began the civil war. And in Lincoln, they're like, and that freed the slaves. And you're like, well, it did the 13th amendment

fairly important so at least the weight of the film is more justified than something like Amistad I also I feel like what I find interesting about this movie I remember there was a lot of eye rolling aside from the excitement over the Daniel Day Lewis I feel like there was some eye rolling

and scoffing about Spielberg making a Lincoln film how inspirational is that going to be like everyone was just like eye rolling and scoffing about like Spielberg making a Lincoln film. How inspirational is that going to be? Like everyone was just like, it's the most idealistic president, you know? Absolutely. It's the director who wants to see the best in people or had for the first 20 years of his career really focused on that. Right. Well, so he had just made War Horse.

Yes. So people were really like, God, is Spielberg just turning into like Mr. Schmaltz in his old age? Like, yeah. Is that what this is going to be? Because War Horse is hella schmaltz. It old age. Right. Like, yeah, is that what this is going to be? Right, because War Horse is hella schmaltz. It's Apple Dumpling Gang. Right.

Yeah. But this movie is, what I find most interesting about this movie is its central thesis is like, here's this guy who is just so, like, lionized, you know? Yeah. For good reason. Lincoln, yeah.

Yes. Fairly famous. And the movie's explaining how he had to do a lot of shitty stuff in order to do something really great and important. Okay. Like, it's a movie about Dirty Pool. It's about how muddy politics were from the beginning. You know, the second you include that many people, how muddy it gets. Sure.

And it's like where it's very easy to just go like, Lincoln freed the slaves. And that he did. It's like Lincoln had to fucking, like, work the system. Ben, you want to say something? I was just stretching, but I guess now, yeah, bureaucracy, right? Yes, it's a combat bureaucracy. This is all about just the bureaucracy, the back rooms, the channels, the talking, the lobbyists, all that shit to make a bill happen.

And all the concessions, you know, that have to be made on all sides. Sure. You know, the sacrifice you have to in in the name of a greater good not only that though and that's why i call this his constitution movie just like bridge of spies like it's a movie about like uh the things not feeling very legal as they happen yeah and like the sort of weird fungible nature of our government that lincoln is not afraid to push although he doesn't want to destroy it, obviously. And, I mean, I think that's what Kushner's fascinated by. Because so many of these scenes are Lincoln

kind of ruminating over, like, what is my role in all this? And playing a little dirty pool. He's playing dirty. To get the end result he wants. Hindu Kush. Hindu Kush. Hells yeah.

But that's also where this movie benefits from having such a stacked supporting cast because if it's like a scene where they're going to talk to a fucking senator and he's only got one scene, it helps to have that guy pop. You want me to just, I mean, should I run through some of this cast maybe? Let's play this game, okay?

Let's take turns naming cast members until one of us can't remember another cast member. No, that'll take forever. Daniel Day-Lewis. Gloria Rubin. Sally Field. Wait, are we saying who's popping? Yeah. Yeah, this is too much, man. Tommy Lee Jones.

Pops. Esa-Patha Merkison. They all pop. Walton Goggins. Steven Henderson. Hal Holbrook. But you see, we're not giving these guys their fair due. I want to give them their fair due, not just race through them.

I'm just trying to list how many fucking people there are. I'm not doing performance review. And I'm saying I don't like that idea. Jeez. Right. There you go. Let's take it to court. Yeah, let's take it to court, baby.

Hey, what's up? Hi, I'm Judge Ben. Okay. Let's do it appropriately and go through the names. One thing I want to say. Yeah, I've ruled. Speaking up, because I noticed him. He's dismissing your ruling.

No, no, I'm with you. I noticed him in this, and then, of course, he's in Bridge of Spies, and we gave him lots of credit, but maybe not enough credit on our episode for The Visit. Peter McRobbie, baby. Yes, yes. Peter McRobbie. Yes.

I feel like I just saw him in something, and now I have to... Yeah. Peter McRobbie, who plays an old racist in this movie. He plays George H. Pendleton, who is a racist Democrat. Yes. And he is the John Dulles,

the director of the CIA in Bridge of Spies. Also very good in this film. And he's a poopy diaper man in The Visit. Yes. Another person who's very good in this film, Connor Ratliff, a.k.a. David Costabile. He really... He would be a good Connor Ratliff in Connor the Connor Ratliff story. Or Connor would be good good connor ratliff and connor the connor ratliff story

or connor would be good in costa bile like david costa ball absolutely he plays james ashley yeah he's actually terrific because he's like he's playing one of those guys who will sort of go to lincoln and be like oh lincoln why are you being such a pain in the ass. And Lincoln's like, well, let me tell you a story about an old mill, you know. So, I love that. Yeah. Whatever I just said. Yeah, you did love that. That is true.

I can attest. You really liked it. I'm looking at David's face and he loved what he just said. Peter McRobbie. Yeah. Yeah, Walton Goggins. Well, and let's talk about, you know. Christopher Evan Welch.

The great. The clerk of Congress or whatever. The late, great Christopher Evan Welch. I mean, talk about you know Christopher Evan Welch the great the clerk of Congress or whatever the late great Christopher Evan Welch I mean talk about a guy because didn't Christopher

am I wrong no he didn't do the narration for that Christopher Evan Welch did the narration for Vicky Cristina Barcelona is that right yes he did

and he was the priest giving the eulogy in Synecdoche New York yes in Synecdoche, New York. Yes, in Synecdoche. And then played fucking what's his name?

Why am I forgetting? Not Gavin Velson, the other one. Peter Gregory in Silicon Valley. Peter Gregory in Silicon Valley. And then died at the end of season one. You're forgetting he was in Rubicon, one of my favorite TV shows. But a guy who is so good. Oh, he's also the pig fuck in The Master.

Yeah, pig fuck in The Master. You pig fuck! That's right. He's the guy who is causing some problems at a meeting yes yeah he's saying like hey this is a scientology is a bunch of shit which is by nature a cult uh great actor christopher evan welch and like that's what this movie is you see a guy and then you have five minutes thinking on that guy's whole career right and that and then he's gone like his role is essentially to read the roll call.

He just reads the names of congressmen. And they go like, yay, yay. And then just marks off a check or an X. But he makes it sink. Walton Goggins, Clay Hawkins. Yes. A swing Democrat. An idiot.

Walton Goggins, very textured, clever, plays a lot of real smart, of uh crafty guys on tv in movies usually plays like the the biggest hick you ever did see right like i'm thinking of the hateful eight what else what else do i think you got uh well gi joe uh retaliation obviously obviously he plays cobra commander's handler in the basement Django Unchained obviously yes just like do you need some the worst like southern piece of shit Walton Goggins is your man

like do you want him to give like eight extra layers oh see him on TV like check him out on Justified we haven't talked about my favorite part of the movie which is you know when Chris Gethard was on our Revenge of the Podcast performance review,

he talked about his Jedi wrecking crew. He talked about Plo Kloon, Yachty Mundy, and Kit Fisto. And he felt like those three characters were having this off-screen adventure where they're just three Jedis who fucking tear shit up and just fucking rip it in general

with these killer personalities and amazing backstories, right? Uh-huh. But you don't really see them functioning as a wrecking crew together. Okay. What's your point? It gives you a bureaucratic wrecking crew. Who's your wrecking crew?

I'm talking fucking James Spader. James Spader is... Tim Blake Nelson, John Hawks. Yeah, the John Hawks is kind of your quiet. Tim Spader, James Spader, he's like... Yeah, John Hawks is the plow cloon. He's the plow cloon. James Spader is obviously Kit Fisto, right?

Unquestionably. He's the real, he's the cannonball. Yes, yes, fuck. He does say, well, I'll be fucked, I believe. I love it. He's cracking walnuts with a hammer. Abraham Lincoln says, I certainly imagine so. His name's fucking Bilbo.

It's impossible to me. His name is Bilbo. And then in the middle there, you've got old Tim Blake Nelson, who's kind of like. Coyote Monday. Yeah, well, the way I see it is, I have weird facial hair. You can't take your eye off of it. It's like a mustache and sideburns. Maybe Hawks is Monday and Nelson is Plo Kloon.

Sure. Because he's the weird looking one you're trying to get a read on. Yeah, it's hard to get a read on. Look, I mean. He's got a cockroach face. The thing with his cockroach, his sideburns and mustache, he should have said to Lincoln, like, hey, my facial hair and your facial hair get together. We got a full beard on our hands.

Chin plus mustache and sideburns. I got half. I got half. You got half. When we form like Voltron, we become the wolf man. Yeah, I mean, Lincoln would be like, oh, that's interesting.

Let me tell you about an old mill. How did this movie not win hair and makeup? At the Oscars. It's a good question. Who beat it? Do you want me to look it up? 2012?

At the 85th Academy Awards? Yeah, who do you think beat it? Oh. want me to look it up? 2012? At the 85th Academy Awards? Yeah, who do you think beat it? Oh. Is something really dumb? Yes, and Lincoln wasn't even nominated. Yeah. Outrageous. Because I think they don't give enough credit

for facial hair. But the facial hair in this movie is insane. The grooming in this film is unbelievable. Everything, look. And even they had to do makeup on Day-Lewis. Of course. Yeah. Make him look like Abraham Q. Lincoln.

Yes. I don't know what his middle name was. Hubert. Do you know who won? It's such a bad win. It was like a dumb blockbuster movie. No.

No. It was kind of an Oscar favorite, I guess. It's not a good movie. It made a lot of money. 2012. I don't know.

What was it? Les Miserables. Oh. I mean, I guess the makeup's fine in that. I guess. It's a little over the top.

It's a lot of dirt. They just put dirt on people's faces. A lot of dirt. Yeah. So, the design of Lincoln, and it did win Best Production Design. It should have won Best Cinematography, which went to fucking Life of Pi. More like Life of Jerking Me Off. Yeah.

I would have given it to something else altogether. Or The Master. I would have given it to The Master. I mean, to me, this is- Was Moneyball nominated that year? No, Moneyball's the previous year. Oh, fuck. I always think Moneyball's 2012. Okay. With a master. I would agree with the master. To me, this is- Was Moneyball nominated that year? No, Moneyball's the previous year. Oh, fuck. I always think Moneyball's 2012.

Okay. No, 2011. No, to me, this is Yanush at his best. They're making the White House look like it would have looked, which is basically dark. Yeah. No lights. Shitty. Looks like my apartment.

You have candles. You have a few gas lights. Yeah. And apart from that, you better open them windows. That's the only way. Yeah. Cold. Yeah. Are you better open them windows. That's the only way. Yeah. Cold. Yeah.

Are you the Secretary of State? Here's an old blanket you're going to need because it's fucking cold. Dragged in a man's blanket. It's February in Washington, D.C. and they don't have any heat.

This movie does have some amazing blanket work. It's got the best blankets in the goddamn world. Yeah. This is an A-plus number one blanket movie yeah this is before they invented the sweater yeah so it was just like look i got a

blanket or i got nothing i'd say this is the number one blanket movie of all time number two is probably elmo and grouch land in which the blanket is the mcguffin you know elmo has to chase the blanket into grouch land and then retrieve it that. That's the sort of plot catalyst. Number three blanket movie. Do you count the Peanuts movie? You know, it certainly gets grandfathered in there because of Linus, but on the other hand, they

kind of give the blanket short change in that movie. So it's like you're only giving it because of the legacy of Peanuts, the strip and the specials when the movie itself, in and of itself, if you'd only seen the Peanuts movie, what do you think of that as a Blinkin' movie primarily? Boy, that's a head scratcher. David is filing a piece.

Basically, sorry, I just got a weird question I have to answer, but go on. So Lincoln opens with, does it open with a dream? It does. Great dream. And I'll say this. Great looking dream. Oh, it looks like an 1890s, like, weird, like, you know. Looks like a tintype or something.

Nickelodeon. Yeah, it looks like a Nickelodeon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, where it's sort of like this, like, faded, weird image of him on a ship. Yeah, like, blown out whites and stuff. But it's all, like, it's like sepia tone. And it's him on a ship and his narration.

Look at me, I'm Abraham Lincoln. Here I am on this ship. I think that's the opening line of the film, right? Immediately. Well, you have to establish who it is and where they are.

Yeah, here I am. Tony Kushner loves that, which is every time anyone walks in, they're like, I'm Secretary of State Seward and I'm in the room now. Hello, everybody.

My name is Abraham Lincoln. Here I am on a ship. Don't get worried, it's only a dream. Very soon we'll cut to real life. And you go, ah, the sounds of Kushner. Immediately. I'm in good hands, the hands of a master. Feed me the music of your words.

I think there has been a title card that says something along the lines of it is 1865, Abraham Lincoln's just been re-elected. The Civil War is in its last month. He's using a blanket because it's very chilly. No, the first shot is not the first shot of the Civil War, of a Civil War battle. Oh, you're right. It's these people just throwing down in the mud, bayoneting each other. It is gross.

The dream comes like fucking eight minutes in. What the fuck are we talking about? Because the first scene is him talking to David Yellow and Coleman Domingo. Which rules. And we forgot fucking those two guys are in the movie. Look, there's a lot of good guys. All right, you want to just do the whole episode over? Okay, yes. So the movie starts with a title card

that says, A DreamWorks slash Reliance slash 20th Century Fox Production. And then it cuts to the war. And some really graphic, like little baby Saving Private Ryan stuff. People stomp each other's faces into the mud. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously there's been many a Civil War movie, and

Spielberg's not making a Civil War movie, but he does want to remind you that one the civil war was super gross yeah it fucking sucked it was not fun to be in yeah like blue um because this part of the movie is like lincoln is prolonging this war so that he can achieve this goal yeah and at this point the war basically involves just like throwing people at each other or just bombing his own country. Yeah. You know, just to batter the South into submission. This was the first war where they used human catapults, right, to throw people at each other? Yes, exactly.

They would just throw, they would just put people into people catapults and just launch them at each other. And also the giant Acme slingshots. Okay. Like Wile E. Coyote slingshots. Exactly. Right, Ben? You're a student of history, Ben. Yeah, no, this is all correct. And you're certainly a student of slingshots. Okay. Like Wile E. Coyote's slingshot. Exactly. Right, Benny? You're a student of history, Benny. Yeah, no, this is all correct.

And you're certainly a student of slingshots. Oh, I know all about the slings. That's right. I've built a catapult. Dirtbag Benny. Yeah. You built a catapult? Like, how big a catapult?

I wouldn't put it past young Benny. I 100% believe it. Hey, this is also the first war to use really modern ammo and weapons. Yeah. Right, right. This is where it's starting to use really modern ammo and weapons. Yeah? Right, right. This is where it's starting to get easier to kill people. Yeah, it's fucking bad. It doesn't take 10 minutes to reload.

Right. Speaking of- They're not marching out like people- They have like gadling guns and all that. I mean, the South was sort of fighting almost like- I mean, this is going to be a little controversial, but they were sort of doing terrorist tactics. For sure.

And the North were doing, you know, they were essentially arriving in cities and burning them. This shit was greasy, though. It was pretty crazy because it was all happening in America. Wait, Ben, did you say crazy or greasy? Oh, and greasy, though. It was a greasy goddamn war. But the other thing

that first image is showing you is that a lot of the troops on the Northern side were black yes and uh you know they these were people who were like sacrificing their lives for their country you know like but for what well right well certainly right like this is on lincoln's mind as well like you know we can't just end the war and be like fine south you know like we get it right you can keep some of your traditions or whatever. Right. So he's sitting.

And you don't see him for, I think, the first two or three minutes of the movie. You maybe see his back. Back of his head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see other people fighting. You see other people coming and talking to him. Yeah. He's sitting in the rain. So, I mean, okay, look.

You know how people say things are folk? Politicians are folksy. Yeah. And this is an era where politicians were really folksy. Actually folksy. They were folksy people. Not like pretend folksy billionaires who, you know, get up on stage and suddenly have a southern accent or a midwestern accent. Like, he was a folksy man, Abraham Lincoln.

He grew up in a folksy log cabin. He wore a goddamn stovepipe hat. He was like a lawyer back when lawyers made like, you know, four bucks a week or whatever. And he was just like the town lawyer. Right. Lawyer, the visual... God damn it. Please.

Lawyer, the visual merchandiser of its day. Wow. Boy. Wow. Let's try to make a joke about it no no thank you thank you uh and then i just want to uh this is a guy who you cannot fucking ask him like what time it is yes without him telling you about like an old lady in 1829 who yes you, sure brought her goat down the street. Now here's where it gets complicated. He's like Grandpa Simpson. Yes. The part of this film that I find most impressive is right at the moment where you're like, Jesus Christ, another story.

The movie's like, we're fucking one step ahead of you. But we'll get to that scene when we get to that scene. Right. So you're watching people kind of come up to Lincoln and try to tell them the story. It's almost like it's like a book signing, right? At Borders where people are like waiting in line to come up and Lincoln and try to tell them the story. It's almost like it's a book signing, right? At Borders, where people are waiting in line to come up and be like, hey, so my

actually, you know my brother, my brother, and he's like, oh, oh great, so who should I make it out to? And it is a lot of that. It's like, yeah, no, we saw you, you know, this time, and he was like, uh-huh. Yeah, he's like, nice to meet you. It's like, actually, we met before, you know. But so there are two, essentially two pairs of people who are coming up to him in this scene. You've gotid yellow and colman domingo as two uh union soldiers later to co-star in selma

colman domingo by the way great act i mean obviously yellow has become a huge star right colman domingo is one of my top like everyone should know who this guy is actors dude uh love him in crappy tv shows like fear the walking dead. Is he on that? Yeah, good reason to keep up with that show. Oh, I like that show. They're on boats in the water. True. Wet zombies. Playing a real scary zombie video game right now, actually.

It's real. Don't like it. It's actually alarming to me. I don't like it at all. Real tense. Resident Evil 7. What's that behind you? Okay, so Lincoln is talking to these guys, and Coleman Domingo is more being like, it's great to meet you. Thanks so much for being president.

And a yellow was kind of poking him. And a yellow was like, I don't know, man. You actually going to get anything done here? Yeah, and he's quoting his speeches back to him. Yeah. Remember when you said that? Where's that? When's that happening?

And I love this scene. Yep scene as a setting up of the personality like Day-Lewis is inhabiting here, which is like essentially Lincoln is taking things on board. He's not rebutting him exactly, but he's also not like apologizing or equivocating. He's sort of like, you know, I understand. Like he's interested in a philosophical exchange, but he's not going to go too far.

Like, he has some persona built up around him. And also, talk about folksy. I think the first moment where the camera spins around and we actually see his face is him talking about how hard it is to cut his hair. Yeah. My last barber. Hanging himself.

Hanging himself. They're loving it. I mean, he's fucking killing it. He's funny. He knows how to be funny. And Colman Domingo's like, did you get JFL new faces this year? Because that's like a tight five.

He never made a Lloyd team. He never made a Lloyd team, Lincoln. Never made a Lloyd team. And then two honkies. Two real honkies walk up there. Played by Dane DeHaan and Lucas Haas.

Two of our best tired looking young actors. Two of our best double A name. Right? Yeah. Dane DeHaan and Lucas Haas. Yeah. DiCaprio's friend and the guy who everyone's decided has to be the next DiCaprio. Boy is he not.

But they decided. He's got two movies coming up this year. I'm going to see Cure for Wellness next week. We'll see. Gore Verbent cast. Yep. We should do it. Yeah.

And they come up and they just start reciting the Gettysburg Address. Yeah. So, They're like mega fans. They're like the guy coming up to Shatner

at the convention and being like, remember in episode 24, you know? That's what they are. They're Lincoln geeks. And he shoos them away and then of course

the yellow woe kind of big foots them by at the end being like, I remember how the Gettysburg Address ends, by the way. P.S. Hold on. I fucking know my shit. I was keeping it cool. I'm a fucking Lincoln geek, too.

Now, this is a movie that doesn't have a lot of major black characters, obviously. It has a lot of peripheral black characters, but no, like, you know, whatever. No one on the sort of the main characters in the movie are probably like Lincoln, Seward, Young, Thaddeus Young. Right. You know, Thaddeus Stevens. Mary Todd. Thaddeus Young is a power forward for the Indiana Pacers.

Yeah. Mary Todd. Right. Yeah. So like and I feel like it came under some criticism at the time for that. Right. You know, you're making like another movie about the American institution of slavery, a different angle on it, obviously, a totally political inside baseball politics, you know, red tape angle, but still. And it's about, you know, the white people who did good.

Well, that's the one thing I kind of like about. I think Kushner and Spielberg are trying to at least force some perspective in on the sidelines of this movie. Obviously, the people in Washington, the people in Congress were white. I mean, this was a racist society that did not allow black people to

vote. Right, and I was going to say, the one thing I kind of like about that scene in the middle... With Stephen Henderson and Gloria Rubin, or which scene? The scene where Lincoln talks to Gloria Rubin outside. Oh, yes, yes. The event, I forget where they're, it was the earlier play they're going to, right? It's outside. No,

isn't it at Mary's party, or I can't remember. I can't remember. But when he makes it clear that, like, it's not a personal stake thing for him, you know, in the same way it is for Thaddeus Stevens, certainly. Sure. It's just that he believes he believes in like basic decency and human rights right um i mean i i think the movie does a good job of deflating that it isn't like uh abraham lincoln was like the woke president sure but it was just like on a basic level he was like why should anyone have less rights than

anyone else yeah there's a lot of debate that still rages over yeah what war Lincoln's real politics because he's on the record earlier in his career saying things where he's like I don't really care about slavery or like I don't care about these institutions but also like you only have these sort of vague written records to go on right

and obviously he was a politician who was as you see in this movie all these politicians are trying to navigate their stances in a changing. I mean, fucking Barack Obama was anti-gay marriage. Right. Until like 2012. Right. You know, like, or whatever.

This movie's kind of about that, of like, you have to choose your battles, you have to pick the things you're going to fight. And in that scene, he sort of says, like, look, I'll be honest with you, like, on a level, I don't specifically care about black people. Right. Which is a kind of ballsy scene to put into a movie that's about Lincoln freeing the slaves. He's not someone who's, right, taking like the American slaves on his back and is like, I am your champion.

Right. But as Kushner has identified in his, you know, million Lincoln biography reading marathon, Lincoln did decide like, no, we have to get the 13th Amendment into the Constitution. Well, you misspoke. I think he decided now, now, now.

Now, now, now. He was cloaked in immense power, and he... And a blanket. And a couple blankets, let's be honest. Blanket in every room. Cloaked in immense blankets. Lincoln, chicken in every pot,

blanket in every room. He just, he was, he decided to spend all his political capital when he did not need to, and prolong the Civil War when he did not decided to spend all his political capital when he did not need to and prolong the civil war when he did not have to to do this and so there is certainly some thing to grab onto there

which is this was not inevitable it didn't have to happen and he did put his weight behind it to make it happen and as you see when Johnson's president after Lincoln dies things begin to fall away almost immediately it took a president who was put his weight behind it to make it happen. And as you see, when Johnson's president after Lincoln dies, things begin to fall away almost immediately. It took a president who was very forceful about these things.

Things could have settled into stasis much faster. I wish the character had more black characters as a consequence, and I wish the characters that were already in the film had more screen time. Yeah, because it's tough. Because you have these scenes where, I mean, that great scene where Little Lincoln, what's his name?

Gully McGrath. Talking about Tad. Talking about Tad Lincoln played by Gulliver McGrath. How do you know this little guy? I'll tell you how. Because he played the youngest son in Dark Shadows.

Sure. And that was a movie where they did one of those marketing campaigns with individual character posters for every character. And they went deep enough into the roster that Gully McGrath, who had never been in an American movie,

got his own poster that said, like, Gully McGrath is... And then just a picture of his face in Dark Shadows. I remember seeing that and going, like, okay, the individual character posters thing has gone too far because who's going to choose to see a movie because they're like, oh, my God, Gully McGrath is... Right.

...in Dark Shadows? Well, his mom saw it, and she went. Yeah, she went. That's true. They got those. $10. Gully McGrath is in Dark Shadows? Well, his mom saw it and she went. Yeah, she went. That's true. They got those. $10. Gully McGrath, GMG. Anyway, he's playing Tad and he asks, I believe, asks Stephen Henderson's character.

Let me get that guy's name actually because he's a real person. If he was a slave. If he was a slave. Right. Because Gully McGrath, Jesus, Tad, has become obsessed with these derogotypes. What do you call them? The little pleats, they call them, of slaves. It's like, whatever, he's taken some sort of weird

personal childish interest in this, like you might look at. He's also very invested in the Confederate War. I mean, he's wearing a uniform all the time. He's going around his makeshift little wagon. He's fucking, he his makeshift little like his wagon. Like he's he's fucking he's he's caught up in the in the dressing

as the events of the day. And so he asks William Slade that was Lincoln's ballot. Are you were you a slave and Slade says no I was I was born free. And yeah.

And for one Stephen Henderson who is incredible great in fences this last year great in Tower Heist six years ago. Great in Manchester by the Sea in one scene. What a good fucking one scene performance.

Yeah, great one scene performance. Literally one shot. I believe that scene is a one-er. Yeah, it might be. Yeah. Whatever. They might switch back and forth. They might do a little cover.

Over the shoulder, if you know what I'm saying. Might do a little bit over the shoulder. And you want more of that. But, you know, so, yes, you want more of that. And then, of course, Gloria Rubin comes in and you could ask her if she was a slave. Yeah. And she says, like, offhandedly, like, I was beaten with a fire shovel before, you know. Right.

I was fucking five years old. Right. You little twerp. Right. You wish the movie spent a little more time from the perspective of people who are most at risk. Sure. But, of course, this was a country that spent from the perspective of people who are most at risk within this narrative. Sure, but of course this was a country that spent no time with these people.

Right, but I also, I give the movie credit for, I think, going out of its way to deflate the white savior button. I think so too. Even though it's about the white people, they make it clear that Lincoln's not just some fucking selfless hero. I want to get this on the record, we're all a bunch of white idiots. Yeah, we're a bunch of white dummies and we don't know what the fuck we're talking about. I don't know if you agree. Oh yeah, white cis dummies in a small room talking about it. Small white.

Very white. It was a white room. One of the whitest rooms. Yeah. So, Linky. Linky. So, Linky has, but the other thing I wanted to say is,

like, every scene, you're kind of like, oh, I want a little more of this. You know? There's so many little narrative directions you could spin off into. It's also just, the dialogue is so fucking rich

in this movie. It's like such a like, I'll admit, so I saw this movie in theaters when it came out. I kind of put off seeing it in the Oscar season because it was a broccoli movie,

right? And I finally was like, okay, free day, movie's long, I'm gonna go see it now. And I went to go see it at Lincoln Square

and like 45 minutes in the projector broke oh man interesting and they were like yeah we're not gonna get it back up it was in the big screen at Lincoln Square and they were like yeah it's done here's your vouchers you can go see it another day right and it was tough to them be like fuck I already watched the first 40 minutes like how am I gonna go see it again So I put off seeing it for a while and then finally saw it in theaters later. But I've always and watching it last night at home

always had a hard time staying awake during this movie. Interesting. Not because I think it's boring, but because I actually think the movie's very calming. It is calming. The language is so musical and it's got this kind of very calm brownishish color palette, you know. But is you can just kind of like lie back in the language of this movie.

This is a time when everyone spoke well, you know. But also it's Tony Cush. Right. It's Tony Cush writing a time when everyone spoke well. So it's like Cush. They got that. Thank you. Hindu Cush.

well so it's like dang kush they got that dang kush hindu kush um we go from the scene where he's talking to all his to his dream fans to his dream now he's on the ship and now he goes hi i'm abraham lincoln i want to ship this is a dream and then to him in his bedroom with mary todd talking about his dream i think uh sally field's performance does not get enough credit in this movie. Fantastic performance. She got an Oscar nomination. She did. But this is a really

fucking committed performance. She lost to Anne Hathaway. Yeah. I mean, Sally Field has two Oscars, so I don't know if she was ever They weren't going to give her a third. It's an excellent performance.

Yes. It's very, it's unsettling. Like, you know, or whatever. She's unsettling. She's playing a woman struggling with mania. Yeah, and, you know, or whatever. She's unsettling. She's playing a woman struggling with mania. Yeah, and, you know, struggling with probably what, you know,

bipolar disorder. She just called maybe, certainly, depression, you know, and who had lost a child and, you know. But she's, you know, she's a hotly... Struggled with the spotlight of being First Lady. She's a hotly contested figure in history. There are a lot of different theories about her and about the nature of their marriage

and all these different things. And so she has to play this sort of fulcrum point about all the questions in Lincoln's personal life, you know? Right. All the things that were kind of kept at bay. And from like the first frame of her turning around, you're like, oh, this is a haunted fucking woman

holding on by her fingernails, you know? Right. Definitely. Yeah um without overplaying it it's like this performance it's like a physically palpable it is sort of and also you only agility she well she has the one scene obviously the party yes which is another good scene where she is kind of talking too long to to Tommy Lee Jones to Thaddeus Stevens right and Thaddeus Stevens is just kind of like nodding and grinning and being like you know here's the Mary Todd Lincoln I know so well essentially you know like she's kind of playing into his image

of her it's the Ronnie Blakely in Nashville scene where she can't stop doing the introduction oh my god and uh but mostly her scenes are just confined to the bedrooms or you know right like she does she feels kind of locked in. The private life. She has that final scene, I guess, where they're in the carriage. Yeah. She's occasionally outside, but usually it just sort of feels like she's cooped up and that's not helping anyone. Yeah.

It's cold. And her husband's fucking hard to read. She's losing her mind and he's just like, well, reminds me of a time. You know? Right. Yeah, no. And he locks it all away and of course is that one scene where he's like look i don't like that my kid's dead

either by the way he unlocks the emotional gates right he does yes and then he locks him again he locks the gates he doesn't talk like that yeah locks the gates who are your presidents poke I remember I used to work the door at Congress and Garfield came in I got caught up with his crew that was bad start doing speedballs with Garfield slid into my DM's

like Giffield back in bits on bits baby i hate it uh so this is um a vignette movie would you not agree i would agree that's what i'm talking about i don't mean this in any sort of negative way it's such a weirdly structured movie no it is oh my god it's great though yeah it's great yeah but it's ballsy to be like there's no yeah there's no sense of straightforward progression no lincoln says to william seward played by david s david strathairn strathairn the only thing so good the only thing more enjoyable than watching one of his performances is saying his last name strathairn strathairn i always feel good when i

say his last name if strathairn if tommy lee jones wasn't in this movie and strathairn Strathairn I always feel good when I say his last name Strathairn if Tommy Lee Jones wasn't in this movie and Strathairn had maybe one more scene I think he could have been an Oscar nominee yeah

he's so good yeah in this movie yeah I mean probably his best performance since the Spider-Wick Chronicles fuck off piece of shit

he's creating the Spider-Wick I have not seen the Spider-Wick I haven't either so William Seward his secretary of state, he's like, man, man, Linky, you sure you want a 13th Amendment? We could end the war. We can do one or the other. Yeah.

And Lincoln's like, you know, he's so noncommittal even. And then finally. He's like, what if I could get you an amendment that does both? Finally, he gets his whole secretary, his whole cabinet together. And they're all like, eh, I don't know. Should we do this? Should we do that? Including Jeremy Strong from The Judge.

Oh, you want me to go through? Want me to go through? Let's talk about this cabinet. Bruce McGill. Oh, the great Bruce McGill. With the biggest beard you ever did see. Yeah. Secretary of War Stanton.

Big beard, big man. Who's mostly, like, he's got that great scene where he's like, all right, so we're shelling Wilmington. Yeah. And Abraham Lincoln's like, two mice fell into a bucket of milk. And he's like, no, no,

you're not going to do another one of these. Right, I was going to say, that's my favorite moment in the movie. I love that. Because at that point, we're like- He's like, for fuck's sake. Yeah. The movie's been going on for an hour

and 45 minutes of those have been comprised of just three different stories. And he's just like, for fuck's sake. The movie's been going on for an hour, and 45 minutes of those have been comprised of just three different stories. And he's just like, I can't fucking deal with this. I just love the image of someone yelling at Abraham Lincoln, essentially, like, shut up, you gas bag. You know, like, stop it with this. That is one of the funniest moments I've ever seen in a drama.

It is very funny. Also, Bruce McGill, he brings it. Yeah. Bruce McGill. What did we just see him in where he plays? Oh, he's in Elizabethtown. Oh, right. It's like the guy where they're like, Bruce McGill, don't let him near you.

Yeah. That man has poison coming out of his pores. And then he shows up and he's like, where's the ketchup? Bruce McGill, also D-Day from Animal House. Yes. I always find that so fascinating because he's so fully reinvented himself as a rotund character actor. Yeah. That's hard to remember that that's where he started.

I love Brucey. Love him. Yeah, who's he in Black Eyed? He usually plays a cop or he's in Clattery. Matchstick Man, he's the guy they're conning. All right, so Joseph Cross. Yes. Love Joseph Cross.

He'd been in Milk a couple years earlier. He's wide awake in this movie. I got to say, he's giving- John Hay. Oh, yeah, right. Well, yeah, of course. A wide awake performance. He's wide awake in this movie. I gotta say, he's giving... John Hay. Oh, yeah, right. Well, yeah, of course. A wide awake performance. He's the wide awake boy, as we all know.

Remember that time he was sleeping? He's doing the thing again. He couldn't even wake up and the movie's called Wide Awake. Great. Jeremy Strong, as you mentioned, from The Judge. Right. And what else is he in? He was in Selma.

He was in Big Short. Yeah. He's a good character. Who else do you got? Dakin Matthews, who's also going to be in Bridge of Spies, who is headmaster Charleston in Gilmore Girls. He's an asshole in both this and Bridge of Spies. In Bridge of Spies, he's the judge.

Okay. Remember? The judge who's like, you know, yeah yeah i know you're supposed to be this lawyer or whatever but stop being a lawyer you jerk let's talk over it just great yeah um great cabinet and they agree all right cabinet 13th amendment fine yeah so then lincoln goes to the conservative republicans led by one of the the bleariest eyed what? Like the most wet eyed actor there is in Hollywood today, Hal Holbrook. Yes. Is there anyone with wetter eyes than Hal Holbrook?

Can I say something that might come off as insensitive? Hal Holbrook could play an old bloodhound in a movie without any makeup. You'd be like, oh, it's an old bloodhound. Oh, wait, actually, now they're closer. That's Hal Holbrook. Disney should do a live action remake of Fox and the Hound with Hal Holbrook. What were you going to say that's controversial?

Not controversial, but insensitive. Uh-huh. I can't believe that guy's still fucking alive. It is crazy. How old is Hal? I think he's like 93

at this point, maybe. He is 91 years old. Hal Holbrook looks like someone who ran for president in like 1956. He got the Democratic nomination. He lost by like 80 points.

And he was like, oh, you know, back in my day we were all for mailboxes. He got nominated for Into the Wild when he was like, I won Kentucky. Where are you from? He gets his first Oscar nomination for Into the Wild when he's like 82. He's like 82. He's amazing.

And everyone's like, that's nice they gave him one before he died. And then, like, this comes out, like, five or six years later. And also, Promised Land came out the same year. He had, like, two choice supporting performances in movies. And you're like, wow, like, Hal Holbrook looks like he doesn't have that much time left. And now it's like fucking five years later, we still got Hal Holbrook. Hey, don't be an ageist. Old people can act. He can certainly act.

He can act the pants off of anybody. Yeah. And if he's got wet eyes, that's okay. Yeah, he's got wet ass eyes. There's some wet eyes. So you got Hal Holbrook, and he's like, I don't know, us conservative Republicans, we just kind of want things to stay the way they are. So got him to deal with it.

What's his name plays his daughter, the mom from Transformers. Oh, Jean Smart. Who's great. No, it's not Jean Smart. Jesus. Julie White. There we go. There we go.

Right. So they're kind of like he's, Lincoln is looking at all, we're taking in all his obstructions, right? Yes. Obviously the next obstruction is you got Jackie Earl Haley. Mm-hmm. My bad guy.

Yeah, now you've worked with jackie my little bad guy jackie earl haley feels about where they're like they call him on the phone and he's like you're making a lincoln movie let me guess let me guess what part you've got for me let me guess is he in the confederate states of america guess number one is he a little weasel yeah he's playing alexander stevens Alexander Stevens, vice president of the Confederacy, who's trying to negotiate Pete's. What a good introduction

he gets. Yes. It's like he gets such a Spielberg introduction where it's like, oh man, they're like introducing him

with power to let you know this is a fucking bad dude. But, did you meet Jack Errol Haley when you made,

like, does he, is he just like, hey man, I'm a working actor, it's great to play villains, like that's my niche in Hollywood, cool, cool, cool. Or does he have any kind of hint to like, yep, they called me for old, you know, freak face, right? Like, that's who they thought of, Jackie Earle.

Look, we didn't have a conversation in which he said the words, they call me old freak face. Well, I call him old freak face. Jekyll Haley, you said the scariest IMDb picture ever. I was frightened of it. With the glasses and the goat thing? Yes! Yeah, I know which one you're talking about. Now he looks a little more... He is truly one of the loveliest people I've ever met.

That's great. I love Jack Earl. And he's very soft-spoken and very sort of introspective, but very kind. That's good. You know, he strikes me as the thing that i respect the most which is just like a fucking roll up your sleeves sure here we are what's the script what's the role like he just this is all very professional does the work and i think uh he i mean you look at how much fucking different work he's done i think he gets cast a lot as a weasley

villains or psychopaths or whatever. Because a lot of actors are too protective of their image to want to fully go for it. Yes, of course. Right. And whereas Jack Eerold, that's his image. Right. And you look at some of the little children and like very few people would have the courage to play a role like that with that much empathy for a guy who's struggling while simultaneously being monstrous.

Right. And so I think he has just not fought against that image and allows himself to play that. Also plays a variety of other roles. Yeah. Love you, Jackie Earl. But he's certainly typecast in this. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Okay. Love Jackie. Can't wait to punch him in the face. So in Congress... On camera, to be clear. Not off camera. In Congress, we've got the Democrats,

led by Peter McRobbie, who I shouted out already, diaper man from The Visit, who plays a big poopy diaper of a man in this movie. Right. Talk about being typecast. That's a guy who every time they call him up, he goes, let me guess, I'm going to throw

a poopy diaper in someone's face. Let me guess, you got a 14-year-old, you want me to diaper face? All right. And then Lee Pace as Fernando Wood, former mayor of New York. Very handsome man. Lee Pace, very handsome, who plays, I mean, I think his first scene, he essentially is saying words that I can't say on this podcast. Yep.

To Congress. He's shouting them to the assembled congressmen. That's a weird part of this movie that almost makes it feel like, especially now, like at the time this movie came out, Obama was in office. It felt like it was kind of like, okay, here's a pat yourself on the back movie about like, look how far we've come. Yeah. And now the movie, which is a period film, feels like some weird, like... Some thing to aim for?

It's like a John Carpenter, like this is where we may be in 10 years movie. Sure, right, right. Where in the Senate, they're just like openly like dropping N-bombs. It's very unsettling to see people throw those words around so casually with no guilt whatsoever,

just to be like, today I ordered a sandwich. You know, they're just like saying things. Just want to shout out a few other congressmen. Michael Stuhlbarg. Oh, the great Michael Stuhlbarg. As George Yeaman. I want to point out,

when you Google any of the congressmen these people are playing, the facial hair, they always got it exact. Like you're looking at Stuhlbarg, you're like, really? All chin? Yeah.

All the way to the cheekbones and nothing else? You look at the, you're like, yeah, that's what that guy went for. Yeah, this movie should have won a fucking Oscar. It was hard to shave.

Yeah, you didn't have an electric razor or a disposable. Why not just let it go, you know? Because you want to eat sandwiches and you don't want to get food in your face.

Well, I mean, sandwiches didn't really exist. We want to eat, like, stews. Yeah, a lot of stews. A don't want to get food in your face. Well, I mean, sandwiches didn't really exist. We want to eat like stews. Yeah. A lot of broths. A lot of broths. Oh, for sure. Can I tell you what I would rock in this time, in this day and age, talking about this conflict?

I would go a chin strap ZZ Top beer. Hell yeah. You know what I'm saying? Oh, for sure. No mustache. So your mouth is open. But just all the way down. All the way down to the belly button.

I would just chop the fuck out of my face. Just so fucking chopped up. All right. Lightning bolts in your sideburns. Hell yeah. You've got... Congressman Hustle. Wait.

Oh, Stephen Spinella. Right, Stephen Spinella. Yeah. As Asa Litton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you've got some congressmen. Murders Row.

Murders Row. Then you've got Tommy Lee Jones. Yes. Thaddeus Stevens. Big TLJ. Not the last Jedi. Tommy Lee Jones. Yeah.

As Thaddeus Stevens, who is like the leader of the radical Republicans, who are basically like, once we get this out, let's seize all the land and give it to black people. Essentially, people who are like, let's have reparations when this is over. They declared war on us. They should be punished, which is not what happened. But let's not forget Thaddeus Stevens' biggest accomplishment, his most lasting legacy, which is being the man who makes John Travolta think that his wig collection is naturalistic. Now, Tommy Lee Jones, what's his hair situation?

In real life? Because famously when he won the Oscar for The Fugitive in 1994, the beginning of 94. Q-Ball. He was bald and his first line upon getting the Oscar was like, I'm not bald, this is for a role. Right. But in this movie he's bald.

Correct. In a lot of other movies he's been bald he's a man with very thin hair I think what you see him have in he was in something this year well the thing I'm fucking thinking of

is criminal but Jesus Christ he's got a far back hairline and very thin hair yeah and he sort of swoops it over back into the side and i think that's his real hair and i think uh he is just comfortable shaving his head entirely tommy lee jones basically looked like this have you ever seen coal miner's daughter which is like one of his early roles i've never seen that no great movie yeah basically looks like thaddeus stevens in coal Daughter. Like he's an old craggy man. He always has been. He's got a lot of character

in his face. I'll say watching this movie. I would say that he has what's like a big on. He's got the entire cast of Nashville to shout that back in his face. That's how many characters are in there. He's got shortcuts in his face. Right? He's got an Altman ensemble picture. He's got a Prairie

Home Companion entirely within his face. He's got a Altman kaleidoscopic ensemble picture. He's got a Prairie Home Companion entirely within his face right now. He's got a Pret-a-Porter underneath each eye. If he just cocks an eyebrow, you're like, I just got told a whole story, right? What a face. Yeah. The face on this man. He should have won the Oscar. God damn it.

No, he shouldn't have. Philip Seymour Hoffman should have won the Oscar. Oh, he's so good. It's tough because both Philip Seymour Hoffman and Christoph Waltz were both nominated that year. Yeah. You're right. Philip Seymour Hoffman should have won the Oscar oh he's so good he's it's tough because both Philip Seymour Hoffman and Christoph Waltz were both nominated that year

yeah you're right Philip Seymour Hoffman this was notably the year we're both kind of quasi leads but like not quite in their movies

you know like dominant but not in all of the movie if that makes sense but I think that's Fisai's number one best performance and now we know

that it's his like the last time he was going to work. It's right up there. Synecdoche and The Master are the two for me. He's so good in The Master. Yeah.

But put it this way and I love I think Christoph Waltz is a lot of fun in Django Unchained. I do too. I think he's great. I don't think he should have

won another Oscar. Well let's talk about that's the weird year where everyone was a winner. All five nominees had already won once or twice before.

De Niro who had won twice was nominated for Silver Linings Playbook. Right, he wasn't going to win. Jones, who had won once, was nominated for Lincoln. Philip Seymour Hoffman for The Master. Chris Waltz, Django Unchained. And then the fifth person would have been Alan Arkin for Argo. Yeah, for Argo.

Go fuck yourself. Right. Argo, fuck yourself. Right. They should have nominated John Goodman. Yeah, they should have. If they were going to nominate someone. John Goodman's never going to fucking nominate.

How's that possible? It's outrageous. I mean, look, Arkin's fun in Argo. He's fun. Yeah, he's fun. It's not a great performance. More like Alan Argo. More like Alan Argo.

He's fun in that movie. He's fun. He's having a good time. He's having a great time. I think he's really fun. That's not like a great performance. No. It's him showing up and like, he's as good in that as he is in Get Smart.

Yeah. He's fun in Get Smart. He's an ornery old man. It's him showing up and like, he's as good at that as he is in Get Smart. Yeah. He's fun in Get Smart. He's an ornery old man. He's a consistent actor. Yeah, he is. He always shows up, he does his job well. I agree.

Anyway, I love TLJ in this movie. Yeah. How can I hold that all men are created equal where here before me stands stinking the moral carcass

of the gentleman from Ohio, proof that some men are inferior Endowed by their maker with dim wits Impermeable to reason with Cold pallid slime in their veins Instead of hot red blood You are more reptile than man, George So low and flat that the foot

Of man is incapable Of crushing you That is the greatest line He will ever deliver. I was going to say, this Cade drop. He literally calls someone a lizard person on the floor of the House of Representatives. This movie is essentially, what if Tommy Lee Jones

did Jeff Ross' roast battle? And he fucking wins, you know? He beats Mike Lawrence handily. I, uh... What was I going to say? Oh, the thought I kept having watching this movie is, God, I wish Tommy Lee Jones did more 3D films. Because that's a face built for 3D.

You want to live in the, what about like an inner space film, but they don't go into Tommy Lee Jones. They just go in the crags. It's just like they're climbing Mount Rushmore, but it's just his craggy face. Just underneath one of the eye bags. So you got all Cragface McGee. And Cragface, they have to-

One of our finest living actors. Cragface McGee. Cragface, the problem is not- Academy Award winner Cragface McGee. The problem is not that he wants to stop the 13th Amendment. Absolutely not. He wants to go further. Yep.

And he's on the record and Congress is saying, I don't just believe in abolishing slavery, I believe in racial equality. He's like the Bernie Sanders of his time. Sure. Tear it all down.

And so... Lincoln's like, too much, too fast. Well, Lincoln just, you know, Lincoln's kind of staying out of it the whole time. Sure.

But, you know, everyone else is kind of like, look, fucking hell, one thing at a time, or whatever. He's the character, I'd kind of staying out of it the whole time. Sure. But, you know, yeah, everyone else is kind of like, look, fucking hell, one thing at a time or whatever. Right. He's the character I'd say probably a lot of people watching the movie, yeah, like you say, identify with because you're like, you know, you're someone with more of a 20th century outlook on things. Yeah, sure.

And so his great moment is that he has to go before Congress and sort of kind of like, he's like, you know, 13th Amendment's fine. Like, you know, right? He has to sort of like whisper it under his breath. Like, you're like, I don't believe in racial equality. And then everyone's like, why'd you do that? And he's like, you know, we gotta do it. Like, our president has asked

us to pass the 13th Amendment, so we gotta do it. He starts heckling, he does some amazing crowd work, he bites back at the audience. I mean, he's Todd Barry level crowd work. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's just him riffing. Yes. He's just riffing. does some amazing crowd work. He bites back at the audience. I mean, he's Todd Barry level crowd work. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's just him riffing. Yes. He's just riffing.

That's just riffing. But you know what? You guys can tell me what. Never made a Lloyd team. Never made a Lloyd team. Did mod. Yeah, he did mod. Did mod for really strong character and sketch work.

Yes. All right, so there are your obstacles, right? Yeah. And then you bring in the wrecking crew. Oh, my God. They start to, you know, promise some jobs to outgoing Democrats. Right. Lincoln starts going like, look, I need to ensure that I get enough votes.

Because if I put this thing up and it fails, we're all in a lot of trouble. Yeah. If we're putting it out there, it's got to pass, baby. And obviously, it has to pass by two-thirds. It can pass, but it has to pass by a supermajority. Right. So they hire these guys who he's not supposed to directly talk to, so he has a plausible deniability, rather.

And they go out and just start having fun. Start bugging people. I mean, this part of the movie is just fun. It is. It's fun. I mean, I think that's one thing that attracted Spielberg and Kushner to the material, right? It is. It's fun. I mean, I think that's one thing that attracted Spielberg and Kushner to the material, right? It's like nobody knows how dirty and silly so much of 19th century politics was.

Because, I mean, there's no phones. There's no constituents. You just go to a hog farm, and some hog farmer's like, I'm the congressman from Ohio. And you're like, all right, Jesus, what do you want? You want this bag of feed? I mean, these guys didn't have toilet paper or toilets. That is very true. They were pooping in a pot they put under their bed. And then they would dump it out the window. I mean, it is kind of crazy. And then they would sign some shit that has affected-

That changed the country forever. That is still in the Constitution. And they might not have washed their hands. We don't know. Yeah, meanwhile, they still got mud in their butt crack. What did they do? Did they have water? What did they do? What was their situation?

They pour a bottle of Evian on their butt. They would use their hands. And that's why, you know, you would not use your dominant hand because that's the hand you would eat with and shit too. Right, because there's lots of cultures. There's lots of cultures where it's like if you reach out with your left hand or whatever to shake

someone's hand, they're like, hey, wait a second! Get that thing away from me. Now, Ben, you're on the record as being a huge fan of old technology in films. Oh, absolutely. How do you feel about this film's approach to shitting? Ah, well, they don't explore it enough for me to really sink my teeth into it.

Sure. But I'm gonna say, I'm to go ahead and say I feel the stink. Yeah, it's a stinky movie. I feel the stink in the rooms. Yes. I really do. So, yeah, I think they do a good job there. Also, great horse work. Oh, 100%.

And great telegram work. Oh, absolutely. Great telegram work from Adam Driver. Good tapping. Yeah, they tap away in this movie. I love the moment in that sort of montage where they play some jaunty music and the wrecking crew goes out. Right, yeah. When they literally run into the guy at the bank.

Right. And then are like, oh, look at all this money. Can you just hold this money for a second? Like that it's that blatant. Amen. But I do like because it's so easy to look at Lincoln now and just be like, great president, did that great thing, was such a great man. And it was like, oh, I long for a time where politics were like that. And it's like, politics were always dirty.

Always dirty. You always got to play dirty to get something good done. There's that scene right in the middle of the movie where Lincoln suddenly monologues about like, look, my Emancipation Proclamation was kind of like a war thing yeah didn't make ton of constitutional sense you know like all these things we're doing i feel like they're the right thing to do for the country yeah but it's gonna kind of gonna have to get sorted out in the courts later and a lot of it might be deemed illegal well like this is what

we do his whole metaphor i forget what his metaphor is he has some like story the lawyer the woman when he lets the woman out of the back door so she can just run away right because she hit her husband it's good story put it in the will you know in the will he said I suspect she has killed me or whatever and if I come back I will have my revenge or yeah

and that's like that story is like a fucking like eight minute like one or Dan Lewis good actor is And that story is like a fucking eight minute one-er. Dan Lewis. Good actor. Is. I mean, we really should call him Mr. Lincoln. Mr. Lincoln, his honorable self.

Dan Lewis is one of my favorite actors. And it feels like such a. Really? Wow. Bullshit, dumb thing to say. But it's true. Yeah. I love him so much in this movie.

Yeah. Do you know people don't talk about enough with him how good he is yeah well they focus on the chameleon thing right focus on the he's a cobbler he's a yeah right and that and he's close friends with ben ben's the one who always has to talk him off the bench to make another movie like for the ballad of jack and rose he actually wrote a whole ballad my beautiful laundrette he actually opened a laundrette right uh you know for uh for the boxer he spent years folding and taping up cardboard boxes and then he realized it was about boxing so then he had to go be a boxer start over they delayed the movie for five years of innocence he literally became completely innocent yes he actually just went

into the mississippi river and floated for a while. Yes. In the unbearable lightness of being, he became so light that he floated above the air. What am I talking about? I mean, the craziest one, for the movie Nine, he took 42 years off of his age. He killed all the last Mohicans so he could be the only one. Yeah. That is true. And for Room with a View, he literally moved in his house so they ate Room with a Better View.

He used to live in the basement. Yeah. I could go upstairs. He's like, I need a room with a better view. He used to live in the basement. Yeah. I can go upstairs. He's like, I need a room with a view. I'm moving on up. All right. That's enough of that. I think that I think people don't talk about enough.

Dude is so fucking charismatic. And when you think about charismatic actors, you're like- He is very charismatic. Tom Cruise, charismatic in all movies. He plays himself. Yeah, but he's playing someone who's charismatic in an unusual way. Right. Right.

But you look at like fucking Daniel Plainview and Lincoln, the thing that both of them have is just, like, there's something charismatic about them when they start talking, you gotta listen. Right.

And those are two guys on total fucking opposite ends of the spectrum. Like, when Dan Lewis launches into a long story, you just kind of lean in. You lean in. You can't wait.

It's like you're by a fire. Yeah. Where, yeah, where Daniel Plainview starts talking, you're like, is this man literally about to murder me?

Right. Or is his head gonna explode Scanner's style? Yeah. I mean, scary. Yeah. He also, I feel like he doesn't take me out of the period. No. As like other actors, it's sort of like, oh, it's that guy with like a dumb fucking stovepipe hat on.

Right. If you see someone playing Abraham Lincoln, you're probably gonna think like, there's Ben Hosley as Abraham Lincoln. Like, I don't really think that's Abraham Lincoln. That's not true. Ben really blended into that role. I'm going to say it's true. Jesus Christ. What was the word I was looking for? I have no idea. Bend it in? Yeah, bend it into that role.

Yeah, he did bend it like Beckham. So, we should just, yeah, is there other stuff you guys like? What do you guys like? We've talked about a lot of things. Oh, the point I was going to make was I like that people want to sort of honeycoat the past and be like, politics used to be pure. And it's like, they're always fucking bad, you know? Sure.

And you always had to do bad things to do great things. And right. And what he did was he, like, that's the thing. We focus on these moments because he actually accomplished something of measurable value. Right. Like today. Yes. these moments because he actually accomplished something of measurable value right like today yes he he made something so important that avery duvernay made a whole documentary about it just last year yes um whereas you know yeah and that's what's what we latch on to and say like oh what a

great man right and it's more like no but like you know he there's a fucking nail in the wall you can't get out and at the time the movie came out it was like oh my god you watch this movie and in here we are today we have a black present that's unbelievable well right and then you watch the movie present day and you're like oh jesus christ why can't we have a lincoln in the world yeah well let's talk about the uh the spader performance he is such a bad motherfucker he's a bad he's so good, he's like the shaft of this movie. Hell yeah. Hells yeah.

I love the fucking, the walnut business. The walnut business. The walnut business. Good. There are these moments where Lincoln has to actually descend into the muck, right? Yeah. Right. Usually he's, but like there's the one scene where he talks to the congressman who lost Lost Boys, not the movie Lost Boys, but he lost his sons into the war.

Yes. And he's trying to convince this guy. Watson's a good actor. I'm fucking forgetting now. Anyway, yes. Shit, I'm not sure. He's a really good character. Yeah, David Warshawski.

Yeah. Something like that. The ginger man, pockmarked face, good character. Yeah, and he's saying to him, like, will you vote for the bill? And the guy's sort of saying, like, I really hate this. I hate black people. Yeah. And I hate this bill.

He's like, I'm going to be honest with you. Don't like them, never will. And Lincoln does not say, oh, you're awful. Neither does he say, come on, do it for me, maybe. He's just kind of like, okay, I understand that you've suffered a great loss.

I've done what I can do. Right. And then when that guy votes no, he does vote no in the final roll call scene. Like, I don't know. You just have more to that. Yeah, you care about. You have investment.

You don't care about them. But you care about what's at stake and you know who everyone has. You know, Steven Spinella or Michael Stuhlbarg or all those people. And then there's the scene where he meets with Spady where Spady says I'll be fucked drain the swamp this guy steps into the swamp

knee deep and that's that's again it's like you know you see like how how far he had to sort of put his political life on the line

like just to to get this over the edge and we should mention he's playing he's playing a lobbyist he's playing a very early version of a lobbyist and I And I mean

what a representation of what they continue to be which are fucking awful monsters that are somehow integrated in our fucking political system. Yeah these fucking walnut smashing assholes. Walnut smashing. Still to this day. Still to this day. Write to your congressmen

and senators folks. Complain. Send them a broken walnut in the mail. to this night. Write to your congressmen and senators, folks. Yeah, you know what? Send them a broken walnut in the mail. Check their pockets for a walnut hammer. I just don't think he carries the hammer around with him all the time.

He's got a little walnut mallet. Gotta be prepared. So I'm just trying to find some other facts. I feel like we're done. I mean, the structure of this movie is like

going through... We've covered all the major stuff. The roll call scene is really amazing considering that it is just people to find some other facts. I feel like we're done. I mean, the structure of this movie is like going through- We've covered all the major stuff. The roll call scene is really amazing, considering that it is just people's names being read out. Yeah. And going like, nay. And Michael Stahlberg goes, aye! That's good.

I like that. He tries to hit a high note. He goes, aye! Let's talk about the Joseph Gordon-Levitt subplot a little bit. Not too much. Okay. But yeah, then let's wrap it up much his son wants to fight in the war Lincoln doesn't

Lincoln's trying to use his executive power to block it the son has this chip on his shoulder Robert Todd Lincoln the son of a great man he feels that he does not want to be coddled or given any benefits because of who his father is he wants to prove that he is his own man

I think he knows deep down he says at one point, I cannot be you, but I have to be something. Right. And so there's this sort of sidetrack to the movie that is Lincoln trying to scare him, scared straight him.

Yeah, he kind of takes him to terrible scenes of soldiers in recovery and things like, you know, the hospitals and it's gross. Right. He finally allowed him to be like Grant's secretary or whatever. He was like his carrier, his mail carrier it's gross. Right. He finally allowed him to be, like, Grant's secretary or whatever. He was, like, his carrier, his mail carrier. He delivered the messages. And then he became a very famous lawyer,

and then he became Secretary of War for Jesse Ray Arthur. Like, you know, he was a famous person. Dude proved himself, yeah. I just think these scenes are not what the movie's really about. I think in order for that to work it would have to be like a lincoln family movie that was really concerned with the lincoln family um you know i mean it's like the movie does such a good job of i think representing mary todd but not inserting mary todd into the plot in ways that distract from what the movie is actually about

whereas every time they go to the gordon levitt stuff I'm like this feels like it's out of a much more conventional life of Lincoln's story agreed I don't love this stuff and I guess it's sort of what makes it a four and a half star movie instead of a five star movie for me it is uh something I can deal with I guess it's the best way to put it I'll I'll I'll take it but it's definitely where I kind of glaze over or make make myself a of tea. Yeah. My favorite moment in the movie, aside from when Bruce McGill flips out over the story, is when they're in court and they have the argument about what's the fucking thing that James Spader

has to run with the letter? What? I don't know. They're like stuck at a stalemate and they go like, we can't do this unless the president does this. Oh, it's where Lincoln has to say there are no negotiators for peace right uh and so lincoln sort of fudges it by saying like as far as i know there are none in washington because they're in

virginia right and what they're trying what they're trying to do is uh delay the hearing so that they don't even have to deal with it for a while they're like we have to postpone this we can't even vote on the amendment unless we know. And then James Fair is like, I got a fucking idea. Writes it down word for word. Runs it over to him. Joey Cross, the whitest of awakes, follows right behind him.

The whitest, too. Okay. And then Jeremy Strong behind him in this great scene where Joseph Cross is arguing that it's like an obstruction of power. Yeah. And- So you cannot lie right now yeah and Lincoln's like listen to me give me your hand

he takes his hand and then he gives the letter to James Fader and is like run this back like you think it's like he's gonna grab his hand so he can look him in the eyes an old mill with a couple of mice and some bucket of cream and he's just like I want to make sure your hands aren't available um

they go back they vote it's thrilling some bucket of cream. And he's just like, I want to make sure your hands aren't available. Occupied. Yeah. They go back. They vote. It's thrilling. It's exciting. It's satisfying. And then as we discussed. Tommy Lee Jones takes the bill. He takes the bill.

They go, you can't take that. It's the original document. He's like, I'll return it tomorrow with crease. I wish I could do his accent. I can't. I'll wear the crease,

but I can't. He brings it to S. Batha Merkerson who plays his, in history, was like the lady of his household. They were not officially married, but it's now presumed they had a romantic relationship.

So he comes home and you think he's just talking to sort of his housekeeper. And then as the conversation continues, they both undress. He takes off his wig and they get into bed together. I think it's a pretty successful Spielberg kind of just like not hitting it too hard. You know, I love that he holds that off until the end of the movie. So you kind of just think

that he's like an ornery asshole although an ornery asshole fighting for the right thing. Right. And you realize like, oh, this is his personal state. Yeah.

Love. A little bit. And it's a little cutesy but it is history so it's sort of hard to argue with. And then after this the movie cuts to i think the the grant lincoln porch conversation yeah i guess so i can't remember

how it all unfolds which i think is how the movie should end i would end it on that scene with some kind of button i could even end it on his conversation with stephen henderson with with william slade and then he walks you know, and it's very Spielberg-y, and he's cutting the Lincoln profile or whatever, but that's fine that he's walking to his doom. Okay, so that's the moment that I start to get irritated with this movie. I agree, but if it ended right there,

you'd be less irritated. It's that it's that, and then you're like, then he went to the play. Bad news. I'll be honest with you. That's the moment where I threw up my hand. All right, well, I don't care. And I'll tell you what it

is. It's the three cuts back to Stephen McKinley Henderson looking at Lincoln and giving the like, man, what a great man. Maybe make it one cut. Right. He does three and it's this moment of like God, what a hero. As if McKinley Henderson knows that the man's about to die. There's something to

the fact, I think for both Kushner and Spielberg, that like he did this and then died almost immediately after. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. And it really was. He put his life on the line. It happened.

And then he was literally shot for his political beliefs. Here's what I would do. Also because, you know, old Boothie was, you know, a little. That scene where they're talking in the cabinet. Wacky. And then McKinley Henderson comes in and is like, hey, 7.30 play, we should get in the road. And he's like, oh, well, I must go even though I'd rather be here.

I would end it there and with him walking away without the fucking McKinley Henderson, there goes a hero close-up. And that would be the end of the movie. I think the second they keep on cutting back and the music swells and he's in silhouette, he starts gilding the lily way too hard. And then you add in, oh, here's the misdirect. It's a play. But wait, this isn't the American friend.

Oh, it's Gully McGrath seeing a play. Who? The kid from the Dark Shadows character poster. Enough, enough, enough. And then they tell him that he's dead. And then he cries. And then the scene of everyone in the bed. It's like a fucking.

It's too much. And then you cut to, after all this hullabaloo uh a shot of him delivering his inaugural address from a few months ago which is fine i i if you want to make that your little it's the milk ending where you cut after his death to you you gotta give him hope that's fine you gotta give him and it's such an image as well because it is like as we've already heard with the gettysburg address like most people can't even hear him so you know he's a he's a politics was a more reduced thing back then but uh if you want that to be your capper okay but like lose the lose the time i'll tell you what i do i would do oh i must go even though i'd rather be here he walks away you don't cut to henderson's reaction you see the silhouette and over that you hear the audio that would be my ending because even getting into that clip of him giving the address

Spielberg does the most Spielberg you move which is they go we've lost him he's officially gone and then they cut to a close-up of the lamp and the flame flickering and the flame transitions into my friend flame of light flame of life I get it alright let's play the box office game I don't disagree with you I just think you maybe are 10% more angry about this I am I think this movie is very good

that stuff always has prevented me from being able to love it it's a great movie it would be my top 10 of that year for sure. It was nominated for many Oscars. Daniel Day-Lewis won Best Actor. The first actor directed by Steven Spielberg to win an Oscar. Is that, that's insane.

Isn't that crazy? That's very bizarre. Yeah. That was the first performance Steven Spielberg had directed that won an Oscar. Which is rude of the Oscars, but good to give it to Daniel Day. And yeah, it was his third lead actor Oscar.

He's the only one to have three leads, and he's now tied with the most any male actor has had, period. It was cool he gave me a shout-out in the speech. He did. And he listed all your nicknames. I know. It bit into most of us. They were playing him off.

Yeah, I mean, it was like such an honor. He's not Professor Crispin. Box office game. Box office game. Was that the one where he knighted, like he got knighted by Tilda Swinton? No, is that the... Meryl Streep gave him the Oscar

and they made the joke about how he was supposed to play Margaret Thatcher and she was supposed to play Lincoln and they did a swap. And it was a great joke. He fucking killed it. He was really funny. Dan Zalewski's funny. All right, so Lincoln opens number 15 at the box office.

Number 15. Oh, because it opened limited the first week. On November 9th, 2012, it opens limited its first week. 11 screens. Makes $85,000 per screen. Not too shabby. Let's go to its first wide weekend. No.

You want to do the limited weekend? Yes. I feel like in the past when a movie is open on less than 100 screens, we go to the first wide. They're the same for crying out loud. It's just one of them has Lincoln in it. So let's just do the other one. We can do both crying out loud it's just one of them has lincoln in it so let's just do the other one we can do both tell me who's number one okay so it's what october 2012 november 9th 2012 number one at the box office this week makes 88 million dollars in its first

weekend it is the 20th film in a series uh it is the movie Skyfall? It is the movie Skyfall. Okay. Number two is an animated film. It's an animated picture. And its second weekend makes $33 million. $93 million total so far. What does it end up at? It ends up at $189 domestic.

Okay, so it wasn't a Pixar picture. I see it in theaters and love it. It's my best animated film of the year, I think. Really? Yeah. It's it in theaters and love it. It's my best animated film of the year. I think. Really? Yeah. It's a DreamWorks? No. Did it win best animated film of the Oscars? No. It lost to a very

inferior Pixar film. Interesting. It lost to an inferior Pixar film. Hugely inferior. What do you consider to be an inferior? Think about it, buddy. Pixar. I believe the last Pixar movie to win an Oscar. Brave? Yes. 2012.

The other things. Paranorman was nominated. Such a good movie. He's going to do his O-O-O thing in a minute. Ended up at 180, you said? 189, I think. CGI? Yeah, the sequel is coming, I believe.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, Wreck-It Ralph. Wreck-It Ralph. I did the O.O. Love that movie. Yeah. Number three. You love Wreck-It Ralph. We've talked about it so many times in the podcast.

Number three is from your man, a director you like, who I like too, but I think is bad now. We discussed one of his movies briefly earlier. Tim Burton. Nope. Another director. Yeah. I like Tim Burton, okay? I mean, just not now. Same with this guy, I guess. You keep on poo-pooing that miniseries, though. Yes Burton. Nope. Another director. Yeah. I like Tim Burton, okay. I mean, just not now.

Same with this guy, I guess. You keep on poo-pooing that miniseries, though. Yes, I do. It's a bad idea. It's a great idea. No, it isn't. Great idea. Okay, he's bad now.

I like him a lot. I still defend him. Do I defend this movie? I don't actually know what you think of this movie. It was nominated for, I think, a couple Oscars, maybe three total. Not too many, but a couple big Oscars. It's a drama. It's a

grown-up drama. It's a straight grown-up drama. It's got some epic stuff in it, but it's not like a big fancy blockbuster. Budget was $31 million. And you hate it. I've never seen it. I refuse to see this movie.

Oh, you're against the very idea of the movie. I know that I can't handle it. Okay. I can't handle this movie. And what... This movie has the one thing that I really try to avoid

when I'm seeing movies. Farts? No, I'm fine with farts. Give me the box office again. In its second week, it's making 14 mil, 47 so far, and it grosses $93 total. Wow. So that's good performance for drama.

Nominated for two Oscars, including an acting Oscar. A supporting? Lead. A lead? 90. From a director you like and I like, but I think maybe The Shine's losing luster. When would you say The Bloom came off the roof? 2000.

The last movie I really liked by him was in 2000. Not Ang Lee, it's not Steven Soderbergh. No. I love Steven Soderbergh. I'm thinking about people who made good movies in 2000. Sure. Not really Scott. No. He made two movies in 2000. This director did? Yeah. So he pulled a Soderbergh the same movie that Soderbergh pulled a Soderbergh?

He did. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. It's a movie by Bobby Zemeckis. Correct. And it is called Flight. Yes. Have you seen it? Yeah, it's not great. Yeah. I don't love it. I think there's some good stuff in it.

You like Bobby Z. I like Bobby Z. But Flight's not your cup of tea. No, I think Allied's much better. I think Allied's a wonderful film. Number four is the best picture winner of that year. Best picture winner of 2012 is 12 Years a Slave? No. No, that's later.

That's next. What beats Lincoln the Artist? Nope. That's the previews here. Fuck. Argo? Correct. Fuck yourself.

Argo, fuck yourself. Yeah. Which in its fifth week has made 85 mil on its way to 136 total. Yeah, wow. Domestic. Good play. Good play. Number five is a sequel starring an actor we discussed who was not in Lincoln, but could

have been. I mean, you know, he was almost in Lincoln. Oh, Liam Neeson taking two? Taking two. Okay. Four million. $4 million. $131 million. It makes $139.

Is it T-O-O or is it the number two? It's the number two, unfortunately. The premise of Taken 2 is unbelievable and the movie drops the ball so hard, but it's like the best concept for an action sequel that anyone's ever had. Yeah? Yeah.

Why? Well, Taken 1 is like they kidnap his daughter he has to kill a bunch of like nameless faceless yeah you know like what's taken to uh taken to opens with the father of all the people he killed in the first movie being like god it's rod sorvega and they're like we finally found an image of the man and he looks and it's essentially a movie about the collateral damage of all these like undeveloped characters who just get killed by action heroes um and he like they're burying like all his nephews and like sons and everything and he looks at the picture he's like i'm gonna find him it's essentially retribution for all the people liam neeson killed trying to get retribution

for his daughter in the first movie like it's all the guys in action movies that are just like, It's almost a movie about, like, moral gray area and how everyone's a villain to someone else. And then it sort of drops the ball halfway. No, that's too bad. Yeah. Bad director. Olivia Megaton, bad director.

And the next weekend, when Lincoln goes wide, it jumps to number three. It does, like, 20? It does 21. And then it goes up the following weekend. Lincoln had a great run. It did 121, 25. 21, 25. And then it makes 182 domestic.

It's insane. For drama, that's insane. It makes 275 worldwide. Great total. I think the rights had been in Paramount for a while, and Brad Gray didn't want to make it because he was like, look at Amistad. Amistad tapped out at a pretty small number. This is you doing the same thing. he was like, look at Amistad. Amistad, like, tapped out at a pretty small number.

This is you doing the same thing. It's going to be another Amistad. But, you know, it got that Oscar buzz. It had Daniel D. But he talked about how he was like he couldn't get this movie made. Yeah, they were afraid it would be another Amistad. Like, literally, the producers were like, I don't want to give you more than like $40 million for this because it could be another Amistad. Like one of the five most successful dramas the last 10 years.

Linky. Like one of the five most successful dramas the last 10 years. Linky. And so the movies in the top five that week are Skyfall, Wreck-It Ralph, Flight. But the number one movie that week was the final film in a five-film young adult saga. Twilight Saga Breaking Dawn Part 2? What was its opening weekend gross? Please, I ask you.

I beg. 154? 141. You overshot. I overshot. Whatshot what the fuck yeah those movies uh did very very well 141 million dollars like it's not like hunger games where you could tell enthusiasm was waning by mocking jay part two like they start like that's crazy didn't the second one make 160 something opening weekend it's possible yeah um yeah uh no the 142 for new moon 141 for breaking down part 238 for breaking down like they very consistent eclipse weirdly opens only to 64 but it was a five day yeah right right right i remember seeing uh uh what's the second one's new moon uh correct i saw that midnight that's like the real boring one yeah that one fucking blows but i saw that uh midnight uh opening night because

i'm ride or die case too and especially was at that time yeah and uh the the level of excitement and fanaticism in that theaters it was like it was like watching like the beatles play ed sullivan for for like three glorious, that was the thing. When the Summit Entertainment logo came up, the logo for the studio that produced the movie, the applause was so thunderous and screaming, and I turned to my friend and went, I will never get that response to anything I do in my entire life.

No one will ever be as excited about something I do as they are by the Summit Entertainment logo. Yeah, Limp Bizkit also got a round of applause like that too. Let's take it easy. Anyway, that's Lincoln. He makes this film. It does crazy well. It gets a bunch of Oscar nominations.

It only ends up winning two. And Spielberg then goes on to decry the modern state of studio filmmaking and going like, dramas don't exist anymore. They've been killed off. it's all blockbusters he and Lucas make this joint kind of like old man complaint even though the guys who created the blockbuster and he's like I can't even get movies made anymore

and it's like you just got a 60 million dollar budget to make a movie that made almost 200 million dollars um that's what I say to that but yeah it's true he does start to grouse what do you want Ben? oh I've got just two things before we wrap up. You've got two things. Go for it.

All right. So this movie, the thought I had was this is definitely going to be played in history classes. Yes. This is like a history class movie, but I think it's a really good one. I was thinking that too while watching this. I was like, would I be excited if this came on in a history class and was like, oh, wow, this is better than I expected a movie I'm watching in history class to be. I remember Glory was the one.

That's what stands out in my mind. Classic history class. This is certainly a much better movie. I do think that probably also goosed the box office. I feel like this is a movie where a lot of field trips happen. Oh, sure. What's the other thing?

I just want to say, with that, you can also play this podcast at your school or for your students. Yes, 100%. Absolutely. It's really educational. Right. So maybe even like build it into the lesson plan.

100%. Play the movie, then play the podcast. History teachers that listen to the show. And look, people have been talking a lot, asking us about when merch is going to be available. We're still working on it. We're having a lot of problem with offshore manufacturers but ben there is a um like a blank check lesson plan like there's a package you can buy it's all paper

materials and then uh cassette tapes it comes in a big clamshell like muzzy and uh all right it's how to teach along with blank check using it using it as an educational tool in the classroom. So look forward to that. Okay, last thing. I'll wrap it up quickly. Please, please. I'm so hungry. No, all right.

I don't know why I came across this when I was looking in IMDB's downlight. Oh, but quick pause before I forget. We forgot to mention that Chet Hayes is in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Is he? The scene with the motorcycle chase where they end up in the library of the college

and they land at the desk of a kid who's working and he's like Professor Jones about that question and he gives him the note and then the joke is that like he's doing homework. That's Chet Hayes.

Well listen I don't know why it was in the IMDB fucking fax trivia thing but it mentioned Colin Hanks and said that their family is related to Lincoln.

So Tom Hanks our national treasure boy What? is related to Lincoln. Yeah Tom Hanks, our national treasure boy, is related to Lincoln. It might not be Tom Hanks. Because it might be Colin Hanks' mother. That's all. I have no idea. It says Tom Hanks. It does say Tom Hanks.

It says Tom Hanks. He's related to Lincoln's mother. Yes. His mother, Nancy Hanks, is related to Lincoln distantly. And that's cool. That's very cool. So that's my history lesson. And again, that would be in the lesson plan.

Yeah. Well, that has been our episode on Lincoln. Uh-huh. Tune in next week when we're discussing Bridge of Spies. Ugh. More like great movie. I'm so excited. More like the best fucking movie.

It's the best fucking movie. Spoiler alert, I already watched Bridge of Spies, and it's the best. I just bought the blue the other day. Can't wait to spin that. Bought it on Etoons, but so good. I got the blue so I could also get that digital copy. You know what I'm saying? Get you a purchase that can do both.

Yes, I know. But I needed that Bridge of Spies right now. Yeah, but I wanted to be able to look at that plastic case. I wanted that Amray case. Yeah, but I wanted every time I opened my Apple TV to see Tom Hanks' face surrounded by the American and Soviet flags. Look, you're making a sound

argument, and this is the whole point of Bridge of Spies. It's the gray area of morality. It's which is the better purchase for how to own Bridge of Spies. It's the gray area of morality. It's which is the better purchase for how to own Bridge of Spies in your collection, physically or digitally. Who knows? Things are not this black and white. We will discuss that film next week.

I'm very excited. David's very excited. Ben is checking his phone. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Check out the Reddit. Backslash R, backslash blankies. And as always, Check out the Reddit. Backslash R, backslash blankies.

And as always. Now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now. It's better. It got a little better, right? This has been a UCB Comedy Production. Check out our other shows on the UCB Comedy Podcast Network.