Blank Check with Griffin & David - Lorenzo's Oil with Bilge Ebiri

Episode Date: April 26, 2020

Hard to believe we're already halfway through our George Miller series! This week Bilge Ebiri (Vulture) returns to talk about one of his favorite films, 1992's Lorenzo's Oil. Starring Susan Sarandon and Nick Nolte...with an Italian accent that somehow works...Oil may have disappointed at the box office but still got a screenplay and best actress Oscar nomination. Turns out medical dramas really work when they're made by actual doctors...who happen to be as talented as George Miller.

blank check with griffin and david blank check with griffin and david don't know what to say or to expect all you need to know is that the name of the show is blank check tell your brain to tell your arm to tell your hand to move your little podcast. Oh, sure. See, I'm like tearing up just like even here. That is the best scene in the movie. Yes, that's probably the best scene. Now, you said to me as I was getting ready to read off my butcher.

And you can talk, Bill. You said it better be an Italian accent. Now, I love doing a Nolte impression. I've done it too many times on this podcast. Yeah, you have. You've done it many times, but usually you're doing Hulk or Warrior, older Nolte. Bad dad Nick Nolte. Right, exactly.

I'm your father, Hulk. Right, right, right, right. Right. This is good dad Nick Nolte. It is. That's true. I mean, great dad Nick Nolte. He really goes above and beyond.

We're going to get into this, but there's like a chaotic, neutral, lawful, good kind of chart of just like. Of Nolte's. Good dad, Nick Nolte. Bad dad, Nick Nolte. Good movie, bad dad, Nick Nolte. Like it's, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this is probably.

This is like good dad, good movie, Nick Nolte. I think this is the best good dad, Nick Nolte movie. It's very interesting. And it's also probably the best dad he's ever played. It's both. I have a lot of questions about this movie, but do you know, does he look like the guy?

Like, how does he get this role? Do you know anything about that? Like, I know he was obviously a big star at the time. He had recently been People's Sexiest Man Alive. Yeah, so recently. But like... And he hasn't done Cape Fear yet? Or has he done Cape Fear?

Cape Fear was the year before. The year before. Yeah, he's had a good... Bad dad, Nick Nolte. You know, he got his Oscar nom for The Prince of Tides the year before. He's at kind of peak movie stardom. Peak, like...

He's the burly, sort of slightly older guy that moms love and... Like he's finally hit his ideal form in his early 50s. His next film is I'll Do Anything. And he's quite vulnerable. Yes, he's unafraid. Hulking but vulnerable, which is not a thing you get that often in American cinema.

No, I think he's— He's always had the guts to be vulnerable, I feel like. In the 90s, he finally hit that perfect balance, and I think it's also a thing of just the way he aged, you know? Like this is when he's still aging well, but how much more interesting his face becomes when there's a little more wear and tear on it. Yeah, yeah.

When you look at him like, you know, in the 70s when he's very young and he's kind of pretty. Yeah, right. He's beautiful. Because he's a very angular face and he's got a big jaw. But he's got the Joel Edgerton thing where he's very pretty but also has this kind of craggy mountain bone structure. Right. It's the chin.

It's the rich man, poor man. That's his big breakout. He's got a, yeah. It's a 70s handsome. Yes. That's his big breakout. He's got a... It's a 70s handsome. It's an interesting handsome. Right, but then once he starts getting some lines in the face, it's incredible. And then there's like 10 years between this movie

and Hulk, in which it feels like he's lived eight lifetimes. He just is aging so well, so well, so well and then suddenly becomes the most damaged looking man in America. I love him. I do too. How do you feel about Nolte?

I love him. I believe in Rich Man, Poor Man, his character's name was Tom, right? Let me just, yes. I remember in Turkey watching Rich Man, Poor Man as like a six-year-old or something like that. And it was one of the very few things that was on TV, so you just watched it. I mean, again, hard to overstate, like, this thing was huge. It was a huge miniseries. People, I mean, you know, like, it's sort of like North and South,

their roots are like back in the day when those things really were watched by everybody. I'm sorry, I just can't get over this. You said his name is Tom. The character's name is not Richard Mann? I always assumed that was the premise of the miniseries. Complete your anecdote. Oh no, that's Peter Strauss. I have no anecdote, it's just like

that was your first introduction. He's one of those actors that I've kind of known since I know myself. He is the poor man of Richard Mann. He's one of my favorite dudes. I'm always happy when we crack into an old tea, but I was watching this last night going, oh, boy, David is going to expect me to do an Italian Nolte impression. And I was like staying up late.

Here's who sounds like this. No one in the history of Earth. And I was trying to do the exercise of like, let me do a little Nolte. I'm like, Nolte, Nolte. And I was like, let me do it in a little Italian. Pizza pie. And then I was like trying to combine them. And it's like two magnets. They're just like, holy, naughty. And I was like, let me do it in a little Italian. Pizza pie. And then I was like, trying to combine them. And I couldn't.

It's like two magnets. They're just like, holy, spaghetti. I couldn't. I mean, Geppetto kind of sounds like it. Yeah, that's fair. It's like, I just, I knew very little going into this film. I thought of it, its rep to me was stodgy. That it was a sort of like inspirational true story.

You look at the poster for this film and it looks like... I feel like it's a movie people, it was like a punchline title in the 90s, like Lorenzo's Oil, you know, like boring. The trailer was terrible. It was called Lorenzo's Oil. Right. And if you don't know what Lorenzo's Oil is,

you're like, why the fuck would you call your movie Lorenzo's Oil? And so that's what I knew going in. But then I flicked this on and I'm like, am I on a different audio track? Like what's Nick Nolte's – who's dubbing Nick Nolte right now? It's like fucking Burt Lancaster in The Leopard or something. And then I realized like, no, he's just playing an Italian man. A very Italian man. Now I know, okay, the title's got Lorenzo in it.

Sure, Lorenzo. I peeped the Wikipedia page before I watched the movie. I knew the character had a very Italian name, right? I didn't understand that he was going to be playing an Italian man. Like a man whose first language was Italian. And you watched this movie the night before I do. We're in the middle of a text thread between you and I and my brother, past and future guest, James E. Newman. We're texting about the movie Warrior, which is one of my brother's favorite movies the last ten years.

Yes, Warrior. How do you feel about Warrior, Bill? I like Warrior. I need to see it again, though. That's good. I love Warrior, and I have to say, rewatched it a little last night. Even better than I remember. Just kind of to be in a

Nolte zone or to get hyped for The Way Back? Nolte zone, Insomnia zone, Way Back zone, all of it. It was a cross-triangulation kind of thing. I was watching some of it. It reminded me how hard that movie honks. But James and you and I were texting about

Gavin O'Connor and Warrior in the anticipation of what I assume will be the blockbuster release of The Way Back. And you said, Griffin, you have to get ready for Nolte's accent in this movie. Right, I did spoil you on the accent. You said... But Nolte's accent, what's he doing, Southern?

Like, I immediately thought, what accent could Nick Nolte be attempting to do, a man with that distinctive a voice, who I've never really witnessed trying to camouflage that voice in any major way? It's true. Usually he's just doing himself. That's what you're paying for.

I remember Jefferson in Paris, like how he speaks in that. Never seen that. I've never seen Jefferson in Paris. Good movie. I really like it. I can't remember what his voice is like in that. But it's one of those. He's got a great voice though.

I mean, it's an incredible voice. I think he falls into kind of that Sean Connery camp, where it's like, it doesn't matter if he's playing a Russian. He should sound like Sean Connery. Like, Nick Nolte's voice is a special effect. He doesn't need to sound like the real person. And then you say, he's playing Italian. Yeah.

And my mind reels. And then I'm like. And I didn't even specify Italian, Italian. Like, maybe I thought thought maybe you think Italian American no no but you said Italian I did say Italian right and then you went I think it works like it pretty much works yeah and even with that

I sat there and was like there's no way this works and every single scene every time he opened his mouth I was like god damn it he's just making this work yeah it totally works it shouldn't work at all. Because I think that accent makes the script work. Yes.

This is a very George Miller thing. I mean, you'll see it in, you know, like Fury Road. You know, the lines sound like they're out of Melville. I mean, they're very operatic. Yes, yes. And the thing is— And the whole movie's operatic. And that character in particular is the very operatic. Yes. And the thing is like – And the whole movie is operatic and that character in particular is the most operatic.

Like I'm not sure that part would work if you didn't have kind of a thick accent to go with it because it doesn't like – in ordinary conversation, those lines don't make sense. No. They don't. I'm trying to imagine like Roberto Benigni playing this role. I'm trying to imagine like a stereotypically Italian man. What is like William Hurt doing this? You know? Sure.

Like I'm trying to think of someone who is sort of at like a kind of nulty parallel at that point in the studio system in the 90s. And it doesn't work with someone who is – how do I even say this? Pacino – I mean Pacino kind of like claws his way back to respectability right around this time. It's true. Pacino could have done it. But it is that weird thing where you're like Pacino is getting bombastic at this point. Nolte is that exact right balance of like that weird like aggressive masculinity and a very quiet, subtle vulnerability where Pacino probably would have been too big and someone like Hurt would have been too simmering. And you need someone who can do like,

at times, like Fritz Lang acting in this movie. There's the scene where he's, I mean, we're getting ahead of ourselves, but the scene where he's reading all the papers of the diagnosis for the first time and then he falls down the staircase. I mean, that's the best scene in the movie. I love that scene so much.

That's the scene where you're like, oh my God so much. That's the scene where you're like, oh my God. Yeah. Well, that's the scene where you're like, that's the scene where this is George Miller. This is George Miller. Yeah. Right.

And this is a fucking masterpiece. I mean, I love this film. I love this film. That's one reason we need you on. I knew you loved this film. We're going to back up. Yeah. I'm going to introduce the show

and then I'm going to set this table cleanly. Because this, of course, is Blank Check with Griffin Davis, a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers. They give it a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want, and sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes those checks fund a new type of oil. And this is a main series on the films of George Miller. It is called Mad Pod Fury Cast. of George Miller.

It is called Mad Pod Fury Cast. And today we are talking about Lorenzo's Oil, which the IMDb trivia section states, and I think it was sort of like I had to run the calculus

in my head, but both of these are correct. The only George Miller film completely devoid of fantastical elements. Right. It's the only film of his, even though the film

is very heightened. It is a film that takes place entirely in our real world. Because even, right, even your Witches of Eastwick or whatever have the sort of supernatural. It's got magic. It's got Satan in it. Satan is there. Witches and the Devil. And he's fantastical. He's not real. Right.

No, right. Yes. Satan definitely isn't real. But also they said this is the only film of his that is not part of a franchise, which you have to be a little unconventional. You mean because Witches of Eastwick is like adapted from a book? Is that the thinking? Yeah, you're like the book. A book that got a sequel. A book has a sequel. The thing's been readapted a number of times. You're like, in a way, Witches of Eastwick as a property.

It is a weird sort of piece of intellectual property. You're right. Itapted a number of times. You're like, in a way, Witches of Eastwick as a property. It is a weird sort of piece of intellectual property. You're right. It's like a piece of intellectual property. Plus it's in the uptick verse. If anyone ever, if Disney wanted to be like, alright, coming to Hulu, uptick verse, baby. So that one's obviously a little bit more of a stretch, but then it's like four Mad Maxes, a babe,

and two happy feet. This is like such an anomaly in his career and I had always, as I got more and more into George Miller over the years, like look this up, see the poster and go, this is so strange that George Miller in the early 90s after like a five-year break or whatever just inexplicably made what appears to be a sub-Marvin's Room movie. Sure. You know, like everything about it and even just like, oh, it got like the token Susan Sarandon Best Actress nomination. I'm sure this is one of those like six movies that she just got an automatic nomination She was in the early 90s, sort of, right.

Like she would always show up. She had like that run where it was like by the time she won. For Deadly Walking. Right. It was like she was Amy Adams. She was Kate Winslet. She was whoever. Well, yeah, that was her Man Walking. Right. It was like she was Amy Adams. She was Kate Winslet. She was whoever. Well, yeah, that was her fifth nomination.

Right. So yeah, Atlantic City, Thelma and Louise, Lorenzo Zoya, The Client, and then she wins for Dead Man Walking. So I was just like, everything about this movie feels so generic. I can't understand how this guy made this. And then at some point, I looked up the trailer. I think after we had started this podcast and knew we're probably going to talk about George Miller someday.

And the trailer is not good. Terrible trailer. But also, the trailer cannot hide how weird the movie is. The trailer does not represent the movie well, but the trailer is almost entirely wordless, right? I mean, it's set to opera music, and it, like, is showing off all the crazy camera moves. And the sort of frenetic energy. Right. And the, like, and the sort of frenetic energy. Right. And the like heightened sort of exaggerated performances and everything.

It doesn't make sense in context, but it became very clear to me. Okay, this is a George Miller movie. This isn't him putting on some other hat. But then the thing that stuck in my mind as we've talked about doing him over the years, as he came close twice to winning our March Madness bracket, and as we finally settled about doing him over the years, as he came close twice to winning our March Madness bracket, and as we finally settled on doing him, and we were looking at the spreadsheet trying to pick guests, I went, I think Bill Good tweets about this movie all the time. I had it in the back of my head. And I went, let me just do a quick search. And I looked it up, and sure enough, multiple tweets, including you, about once a year, I would say.

Whether it's in an ad tweet, I just want to remind everyone, you have gone on the record extensively saying it is the single most underrated movie of the 90s. Possibly of all time. I mean, I love this. You also once called it possibly the greatest film of the 1990s. I mean, it's definitely a contender. You know, the 1990s were, I mean, that was a good decade for me. There were a lot of contenders there.

Here's, I'm just, this, you tweeted this not, just last year. Your favorite films of the 90s. Beau Trevai, Heat, Lorenzo's Oil. Yeah. Three great movies. Yeah. The Sheltering Sky, The Thin Red Line, love it. Yeah.

I know you're a big Bertolucci guy. Yeah. Titanic and Underground. Great, great seven. I know you're a big Bertolucci guy. Titanic and Underground. Great seven. You're sort of almost saying if you're looking for the Bill Gabry experience. I mean, that's like, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's like, you know,

at least half of those movies could be on an all-time list for me. Sure. You once called it the best Christmas movie because it's great and there's a Christmas tree in it at some point. There is a Christmas tree in one shot. So you're looking, you essentially

want to insert Lorenzo's Oil into the conversation of best blank of all time. The most blank. It is definitely a most movie. It's also, I think Would it be like your Sight and Sound 10? You know, if you were doing one of those? I don't know. That's tougher.

You know, there are... Basically, your take is like, I love this movie more than anyone I've ever met. Like, I may be actually the biggest Lorenzo's Oil fan. I just knew that. I think it's Bill Good, but I know there is someone who has clearly carved out a corner for themselves as the world's

biggest Lorenzo's Oil fan. Well, part of it is also because it's so undervalued. Yeah. And part of it is, I mean, and it's undervalued in part because of all the things that we just talked about. You know, it was not marketed well. It doesn't seem. It wasn't a very big hit.

And also, if you know what it's about, you're like, oh, I don't want to see that at all. Yeah, right. No, no. It seems like it'll be grueling and challenging. And I know a lot of people who haven't seen it who love George Miller and I'm kind of like, just

see this movie. It's really good. And it's also really personal. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, right. That's the thing is that as I'm watching it, I remember like, oh, right. He's a doctor. I mean, there were two things that immediately hit me once I started watching this movie. In this genre that is very unappealing to me of sort of a medical issue, you know, like weepy on its face, right? The worst example of which or the most generic example of which is like Harrison Ford Extraordinary Measures, right?

Right, right. It's like I'm going to find this cure. I'm like don't want to watch this movie. Seems punishing and also kind of maudlin and generic. So for me to want to watch a film like this where you know even in its best execution it is going to be so fucking painful and grueling to live through this process, I have to know that it's so fucking good, right? So even though I was sold on the idea

of I'm probably going to like this movie, I go into it a little bit guarded. And then the first two things I recognize almost immediately because we're watching all these movies in order and we're like living in this Miller headspace is, oh, right, this guy actually has a medical degree, worked as a doctor.

This immediately feels different than any other time I've seen this movie. Because of how much more intimately this guy understands all the different dynamics at play. And the actual fucking science at play. But also very good at dramatizing the very alienating experience of talking to a doctor who's trying to explain to you why your son's brain is melting. And also understanding both sides of that desk. Yeah, 100%. Right, being the person supporting the patient, being the doctor.

I mean, it's got such a nuanced, complicated understanding of that entire landscape. But the other thing is, oh, right, this is the movie he makes two films after he makes his movie where his best friend and closest collaborator dies. Right. And he constantly talks about that being an enormous grief in his life. Like a really, really long, drawn-out grieving process. And, you know, he's not reticent to talk about Byron Kennedy, but it always feels like it's tinged with this like I wish I could have prevented that even though there's nothing he could have done. Yeah. And that desire in this movie feels very personal and palpable to him.

Yeah. I mean it's – he understands the medicine, but he also understands grief and the helplessness that comes with kind of the other side and I just love, I mean the fact that the film is so bold in its style and kind of its effect and yet is also extremely compassionate

even though I mean I think the real doctors that were portrayed in the film you know under pseudonyms The guy that Yusuf is based on was furious I think he called it scurrilous Is he furious because he feels like Yusuf becomes too much of an impediment in the later part of the movie

Was that his issue? Maybe look it up David I tried to and I couldn't find anything particular I think it I don't think that character is a one to one representation I think they, well, I don't think that character is a one-to-one kind of representation. Sure, which is why I think they changed the name. I think he did it out of a sense of, my sense, my presumption is that he changed the name not because it's a composite as much as because he is using this character to dramatic ends and he doesn't want to.

Right, he thinks that it's too negative. He's like, I was not as like sort of obstinate or whatever as that movie is. But I don't think Usnao's character really is that obstinate. He's not. He's actually, I find him very compassionate

and very touching. I get it that if you're the real person, you might. But that's why he changed the name. Yeah. He changed the name and also like he's dramatizing stuff. So in many cases,

I mean, there has to be some, you know, oppositional figures and things like that. And there's also this whole – I mean metanarrative isn't quite the right word. But there is this idea that in some ways what we're also watching is related to some extent to the AIDS crisis, right? And which is referenced like once in the movie. But this is coming – At the time, people were very much aware that that is

kind of a sub-narrative happening here. So in that sense, you know, this is a very symbolic character. And the fact that he can do so much with that character and still make me feel bad for the guy. I think it's a really, really skillful performance. I would love to be played by Peter Ustinov. That would be fucking

great. Have you guys seen those videos? I don't know what the origin is. It must be from some old BBC special or something. It doesn't even look that old because it's him at an older age. I think it's him in the 90s where he is telling old showbiz stories and he does impressions

of all the actors he used to work with. Have you ever seen these? No. For whatever reason, we'll stumble upon them on YouTube every once in a while through that tricky algorithm. And then we'll end up down a rabbit hole. But he'll be like telling stories about working with Charles Lawton. I mean, he's just sort of like dishing goss on that whole generation of actors. And he does the most insane impressions of everyone, including a Jim Carrey level of his face transforms when he does the person.

I wonder if he ever did a Nick Nolte and Lorenzo's oil impression. I mean, it makes me wonder. Because he'll like, Peter Yusoff does not look like Charles Lawton. Yeah. And he'll tell a story about being on set with Charles Lawton. And they'll be like, and then Lawton said. And then his face just turns into Charles Lawton. And he'll tell a story about being on set with Charles Lawton. And they'll be like, and then Lawton said. And then his face just turns into Charles Lawton. It looks like those dumb deepfake videos that now circulate

where a comedian is doing an impression of a person. Ustinov rules. It's an awesome person to have play you. And I think he's playing this character very responsibly understanding that it is not a villain. Even though he is a dramatic obstruction for much of the film.

Man, he didn't die for another 12 years after this. Peter Ustinov really stuck around. But he, I mean, did he work much after this film? That's a good question. The second he came on screen, it made me realize I don't think I've ever seen Yusuf at this age. He did stuff. I mean, I think he took little roles, you know. His last

on-screen role is Joseph Fine's Luther biopic. Don't forget Luther. Pilger. Pilger Berry from Vulture. The last two times you've been on this show. First of all, welcome to the Three Timers Club. The last two times you've been on this show, first of all, welcome to the Three Timers Club. The last two times

you've been on this show were for Christopher Nolan and Michael Mann, who are very loudly two of your favorite filmmakers and people you've written about extensively and thought about deeply.

And then this movie you vouch for very hard. Right. Are you a big Miller guy? Is Miller a big guy for you in general? Or is it really

this film that stands head and shoulders above the rest of the filmography? Oh, I mean, I love Miller, but, like, this is the movie

that made me fall in love with George Miller. Sure. At the time that I... We were talking about this. You saw this when you were in college. I saw this when I was in college

and I saw it out of a sense of duty. It wasn't like, oh, yeah, I want to go see Lorenzo's Oil. Yeah. A friend and I had started an arts and culture magazine, and I was – I had appointed myself film critic. Congratulations.

And it was coming out. This was coming out, and we had some invites to press screenings, but not for this one, if I remember correctly. if I remember correctly. So I like went out by myself on a, you know, one weekend afternoon or evening to like the local multiplex and sat in the theater where I think I was the only other person. I think it was like maybe two people. Yeah. This was not a hit this time.

Not a hit. No. Yeah, it was like opening weekend. And kind of was just like, I guess I have to fucking see Lorenzo's Oil because that's one of the movie's opening. Right. So I went and saw it.

With the sense of like nine to five grind. Right. Got a clock in it, Lorenzo's Oil. Right, exactly. And I had seen Mad Max as a kid, but like it hadn't, like the first Mad Max, and it hadn't made like that much of an impression on me.

You know, I mean, I think I enjoyed it, but you know I didn't really even make the connection sure because at the time there was another George Miller

there's also this do you remember this the man from Snowy River George Miller also Australian huh Frozen Assets George Miller

whoa it's just funny because for a long time we actually thought they were the same guy sure right of course why not

they seem like they're making the same kinds of movies yeah no yeah of course he made Andre the movie with the seal yeah I saw Andre remember Andre and he has no like middle initial he is just George Miller it's so funny

to think that they were like our kids have been friends with like chimpanzees yeah he did die no he had no no initials but they were just like I don't know what could a kid be friends with? They're just like walking around a zoo and someone sees a seal. I'm like, sure, let's do a seal. 90s had a ton of.

She's going to have to be on a dock the whole time. A kid and an animal. In a small town. And the kid's either on vacation or it's a single parent or something. Light hijinks. Very light sort of velvet glove hijinks. And then you save the community center and like woof

great you know which one of those movies we'll get back to Lorenzo's Oil in a moment and then talk about for the rest of this episode

but one of those movies where I'm just like what a weird series of things that culturally led up to this being a project that was greenlit the live action

mid 90's flipper movie starring Elijah Wood and Paul Hogan. It's true, which my grandmother took me to see in the theater, I remember very clearly. She was like, this is the movie for a grandma and her grandson. Here's this weird guy who suddenly became an overnight pop culture phenomenon.

You're talking about Paul Hogan. Yeah, these two massive hit films. Then no one really knew what to do with him afterwards, including himself. And most of his projects are self-started. And it's like, you should play a salty guy, right? You're gonna wear a Hawaiian shirt and drive a boat? Paul Hogan, call him up.

That's like the very tail end of his studio run where he's like, I don't know, just put me in a flipper movie. Like, I'm not gonna write a script for myself. Put me in a goddamn flipper movie. Elijah Wood is just at the precipice of graduating to like puberty. Right. Like he's sort of on the precipice of being like post child star. Yeah.

And then it's that era where they're just like, oh, any 60s television show still airs on repeats enough that it has name recognition with five year olds. Right. Like it's insane. Why would I have known what Flipper was? I don't know. I don't know why. Well, you knew because you knew from Dolphins. I knew from Dolphins.

I don't know. I had certainly never seen Flipper. Flipper was on TV pretty regularly when I was a kid. I'm a little older than you guys. But, like, it was like the, you know, you came home, you know, and at 3 p.m. or 3.30 p.m., like that was on TV

along with, you know, the old Batman. Yes. Yeah, old Batman. I fully remember Flipper. Andy Griffith.

Yes, I remember Flipper rerunning alongside all those shows, usually at after school times. Yeah. And it was constantly the show that I just clicked past on the remote.

Who's the villain in the Flipper movie though? Who's the actor? Yeah. I mean apart from like I assume society is a villain in Flipper. Juergen Prochnow. I'm going to guess Juergen Prochnow. It's a strong guess but no. The only thing I remember strongly about Flipper is Paul Hogan forces Elijah Wood to smoke an entire cigar

and then Elijah Wood vomits in a bucket. Yeah. So when you say villain, that's what immediately comes to mind. A deeply traumatizing thing. Jonathan Banks plays the villain in Flipper. It just sounds good. I saw that movie. I have no memory of Jonathan Banks. That rules. Kiarostami directed that? Who directed the Flipper movie?

That was a Kiarostami. A guy called Alan Shapiro directed it. Who sounds like, I don't know, someone who takes your name as you enter your agent's office. Sure. I don't know. So you think George Miller might be the same guy who directed Andre. Andre. As you're walking into oil, right?

You're like, I don't know. He made Mad Max. He made Andre. Andre the champagne of flippers. Yeah. There's no sense in my head. Oh, yeah. This is an oh yeah, this is an auteur I need to pay attention to. And I hadn't seen Road Warrior at the time. That's funny, that had just passed you by.

I mean, I remember opening and being a thing, and I just hadn't seen it. And you hadn't seen Thunderdome, and you hadn't seen Witches of Eastwood, which was a pretty big hit. I had seen Witches of Eastwood. Yeah, that makes sense to me. But like, you know, it wasn't a movie I particularly cared for. And it's a guy whose career at this point is three films all in the same franchise. Three Australian car exploitation movies. Which for me growing up, I was like, I watched parts of these movies on TV all the time.

And it wasn't until years later that I sat down and, like, distinctly interpreted them as separate things. Mad Max just sort of felt like a mash of stuff. And then like Witches of Eastwick, which you're like, oh, that's like an above average studio comedy. That's like a good studio comedy. But it doesn't feel like that guy is defining

himself. That was a very star driven movie. Yeah. And Cher and Michelle Phelan. Susan Sarandon. Susan Sarandon again. You know, like, yeah. You don't think of that as a Miller movie so much. Yeah. Nicholson and Cher and Michelle Phelan. You know like Susan Sarandon. Susan Sarandon again. You know like yeah. You don't think of that as a Miller movie so much. Yeah. You sit down ready

for your plate of broccoli. You have no strong feelings on Miller either way. Right. And the movie starts and I mean Universal logo.

Yeah. Universal logo. Yeah. It's the opening scenes in the Camaros where you're kind of like, what is happening? Yeah, actually the opening is kind of amazing. It's Friedkin-esque.

It is. It's kind of like, I am going to start this movie in a place where you have no anticipation. Right, you don't think this is going to be in the movie, and it's not going to be terribly relevant to the movie, but it's very crucial to the sort of soul of this character, especially the Nick Malte. But I was certainly dreading when you get to that opening, you go, oh, God, is he going to catch an illness from the fact that he and his family were in?

Right, so I'm sitting there, like, clenched, like, from that opening, as beautiful and well done as I think it is. I was like, oh, God, is that the narrative of this thing? Right. And then, oh, god, is that the narrative of this thing? Right. And then – but fairly quickly I become aware that I'm watching something that is nothing like what I anticipated. And that's the thing that – I mean that's the thing that – why I'm always so kind of militant about this movie because it really is like just this like high operatic sense of style in it is there from frame one like it does not stop it stops at one point but very pointedly stops but like it really just never lets up

yes and and that sense of style like suddenly i was completely just just overwhelmed by this thing and it was you know it's still to this day one of the greatest movie-going experiences I've ever had. And after I saw it, I was just like, oh, my God, what the fuck was that? And, of course, I immediately went and rented Road Warrior and stuff. And watching Road Warrior, I'm like, oh, this is actually kind of the same aesthetic. This is very much his imprint. And at the time, I think in my review at the time, I said something like, you know, Mad Max is like, that Lorenzo Zoyle is basically like, you know, the road warrior aesthetic into the real world. There are camera movements in this movie that reminded me of Fury Road. Like, this is him. Right.

Yeah. You know, and of, yes, prior films, obviously. But like, you know, just that like thing in the library where it's like God is coming down to look on this woman, essentially. You cannot beat it out of this guy. You know? No, and not only... You get the sense that he fundamentally could not make an anonymous film as hard as he tried. Sure.

Like, I think this movie is actually more stylized than any of his other movies, too. Except maybe Fury Road. Fury Road, maybe just because it has all... On top of the Mad Max stuff, it's got the speed ramping and the colors. I also want to remind the panel that Babe was a pig in a city. Populated. That's the thing. By little animals who wear little clothes.

The thing is that Babe is a great movie about a talking pig. Yes. And you're like, I mean, this is pretty out there and it worked and then he's like you don't even know how fucking out there this pig can be I'm gonna take him

to the city and you're gonna you're gonna cry and scream yeah you want a chimpanzee wearing a three piece I want children to never want to go

to a movie theater again right animals somehow paying rent in a flop house I mean we'll get to this but it's just so crazy the leap that Babe Pig in the City makes where it's like, Babe 1, here are animals.

What if a pig wanted to be a sheepdog? You're like, insane. We all play that mind game. What if the animals are talking to each other and we can't hear it? But they move like animals, and they're not doing people things. And then Babe 2 is like, no, they have a little city. They have a little city where animals rule. So strange.

They have a little animal city where they act like little children. Have you ever interacted with them? Because I feel like with Nolan and Man, we've discussed both times you've interacted with those people. No, I've never interacted with Nolan. Oh, no?

You've never done a Q&A with him? No, I've never done a Q&A with him. You should do a Q&A with him. Come on. Come on, Tenet's coming up this year. Come've never done a Q&A with him? No, I've never done a Q&A with him. You should do a Q&A with him. Come on. Come on. Tenet's coming up this year. Do a Q&A.

I'm going to send Warner Brothers an email. I have tried to. I know. Well, at the Village Voice I came very close. He just doesn't do a lot of stuff.

It is my understanding that Christopher Nolan hates New York Magazine. Really? Because David Edelstein hates his movies. He feels like someone who reads The Atlantic. It just feels like

in that kind of calm middle, you know what I mean? Like he doesn't know who I am, but maybe The Atlantic will catch his eye. What if Christopher Nolan's a blankie and this episode drops and all three of us get like a DM, a group DM? Oh, hi mate. I'd love to be on the podcast. You guys, who

won March Madness? It's too bad Tom Green lost I would have done Freddy Got Fingers but you've never talked to Miller I've never talked to Miller I was supposed to interview him right before Fury Road came out and then the interview got cancelled and it's not like he makes that many movies

that's the thing about almost every project he's picked including this one like you said it's five years after Witches of Eastwick. Why was this the film he zeroed in on? For his fifth film and his second non-Mad Max movie. To contextualize this a little bit, three Mad Maxes, which are just this thing that grows and grows, right? This sort of master he has to serve.

And I think serves uh with pleasure but the third film is then tainted by the the grief and the loss of uh byron kennedy and his first film he makes fully on his own is the only film that he really made properly within the american studio system and also as just like a director being hired rather than someone who was fully developing the thing yeah i think it's the only movie he didn't write, right? I can't remember if he wrote The Happy Feast. No, I think he did. No, he did. Everything else is so fully his blood. Eastwick is the only one

he's not credited as a screenwriter. And he talked extensively, and I'm sure we talked about this on the episode, that Eastwick was a very difficult process for him the first time he was dealing with notes, you know, and studio pressures, and that Nicholson insulated him from it a lot and sort of taught him to stand up for himself. But he had weirdly like developed this kind of like, you know, Miyazaki of Australia sort of career where he just like got to do everything exactly the way he wanted it, you know, because he he raised the money himself.

He had the money himself. He had the same collaborators. He had a sort of workflow and everything. And that was the first time that he was having to, like, serve other people. And then he doesn't make a movie for five years. And he comes back with this, which does feel like a sort of time delayed processing of. Yeah. like a sort of time-delayed processing of the sort of everything he was going through during Beyond Thunderdome and Witches of Eastwick. Then with some time to rest,

I think he gets divorced in between these two movies also. Is that possible? I think he gets divorced between Eastwick and Lorenzo. I can't remember, but he married Margaret Sixel, who he's met you now, in 95. So it sounds about right. Lorenzo's Oil. So is yeah Lorenzo's Oil so you've seen Lorenzo's Oil

in 1992 you have a profound experience with it how many times have you seen this movie would you say? I've seen it many times many times

more than 20 I would say that is a lot of times yeah I don't mean that judgmentally it's just very interesting I mean it was in theaters for like

you know three weeks or something right it was brief it was in theaters for like three weeks or something. Right, it was brief. It was in and out. Yeah, but I bought the LaserDisc. Wow. And I watched... Did you have to flip that sucker? Oh, yeah. 135 minutes. That's... Flipping like Paul Hogan. Smoking a stogie. I will say while we were talking, I looked up if you can

buy a flipper LaserDisc because I was... You gotta flip those. Five bucks. Wow. Commentary? I have one still. I think I have the LaserDisc for this still. I may also have the DVD. Yeah. But this is also one of those movies that I would show to people. I think it doesn't have a Blu-ray.

It just was announced. Oh, just announced. Kena Lorber just announced one that I think will hopefully be coming out around the time this episode airs. That's cool. Soon. For them. Yeah.

But yeah, it's, I mean, this is one of those movies that I would show people. Yeah. Like if you were my girlfriend, you would have to watch this movie. Right. And I showed it to my roommates and, I mean, it's, you know. Would people always walk away after that being like, you're right, this is an underrated movie? Or were some people like, why did you show me that? Like, because I, when I watched this film, was surprised by how much I liked it.

But I had very low expectations. Well, not very low, but like. Well, I mean, I don't know that if I've, I don't know that I've ever

had someone say, why did you show me that? Maybe they were afraid, but no, I mean, I've, you know, not everyone has loved it,

but a lot of people have loved it, or at least, so they told me. Sure. But, it's a special movie. But yeah,

I mean, it's a, it's a very moving film too. I mean, you don't necessarily have to appreciate the aesthetics to, you know, a lot of people have problems with Nolte's accent and whatnot. But, you know. I can't be mad at his accent. I can't either.

It works. It's too unusual for me to be mad at. It's also the other thing, and I have to, I should note this. And I didn't know this at the time. I mean it was only after I saw the movie that I realized this or as I saw the movie, I realized the story. My father worked for the World Bank. Oh, interesting. So when I saw that like this was a World Bank family, like there are certain things about World Bank families.

Not that I knew that many of them, but we know a lot of Turkish World Bank families and a couple of others. But there was something about the way it depicted that family that felt very authentic to me. I love good Washington, D.C. movies. Sure. And I think of this as one, even though it's not really – Yeah, but it's a good movie about being confronted with an insurmountable problem and sort of charging into it and charging into bureaucracy. Right? Like I get the Washington, D.C. vibe.

Which, you know, aside from the fact that he is a doctor, I know it is the easiest thing in the world and an overly tempting thing to do to track the character struggle in any movie onto the director expressing something about how hard it is to make a movie. But it does feel like there's something in the sort of single-mindedness of, I need to solve this seemingly impossible problem, you know, and the type of mentality that gives you the persistence and the stubbornness and the mix of realism but also optimism to keep going through it. And to have that also be someone who has been both a filmmaker and a practicing doctor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But also, I mean, there's also a certain arrogance to these characters. I mean, they even say this in the movie. It's a whole thing. And he doesn't shy away from that. Like they are allowed to be – they're persistent, but they're allowed to be a little annoying in their persistence as well. And I love that. And I love the fact that – It's part of why they succeeded.

Right. And, you know, the way that Susan Sarandon's character, you know, kind of becomes almost monstrous at a certain point. I'm almost shot like a horror movie character where she's kind of like lurking in the background. You know, she's like a shadow or we see the back of her head. Even as we understand why she's doing the things that she's doing. And even as we feel great compassion for her, the film also is willing to acknowledge this sense that she is – she's becoming this kind of monstrous figure. Well, and the mapping is easy because making films is something that all filmmakers innately have experience with.

So you can watch any movie knowing that they can always relate And mapping is easy because making films is something that all filmmakers innately have experience with. So you can watch any movie knowing that they can always relate whatever is happening in the film to going through that. Yeah. But that's – So keeping your eye on the goal. Right. At the risk of offending, alienating all sorts of people. Which by the nature of this podcast and the types of films and directors we cover, we're constantly coming up against those anecdotes where it's like everyone said you can't do this thing or the stories of how they someone trick someone into doing the thing they wanted them to do right right right or you act like an

asshole and hardball on this thing so they ultimately come around like that sort of bull headedness all in the name of some single-minded and purpose, you know? I think what is interesting is that in the same way that he portrays the Ustinov doctor as inherently a well-intentioned moral man who is beholden to... Well, he's like, I want to help you in any way I can. I have ideas, but right, when they're like, how do we just crash through the system? He has to be like, well, I still represent help you in any way I can. I have ideas. But right, when they're like, how do we just like crash through the system?

He has to be like, well, I still represent, you know, a methodology that I can't go around. And it is this thing that I genuinely just don't think about much because we are so frequently talking about how completely fucked our health care system is. And it's very easy to just think of the binary of like we should all get treatment and it shouldn't cost us all literally an arm and a leg, you know, that you don't think about the intricacies of, the double-edged sword of bureaucracy needing to coexist with medical science because of what is at stake in every single instance and that you are essentially, if you are working in the medical field,

you're working in a field where mistakes are truly fatal, you know? Where the stakes are so high in terms of what can go wrong that you understand the sort of trepidatiousness and the sort of like the instinct to follow the line and not veer off because it's like, how are you going to defend the choice to do something that hasn't been thoroughly tested and approved if that

goes wrong versus if you follow the book and the person dies and you're able to say, well, it's just it's a horrible disease. We couldn't have done anything about it. But it's like you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Yeah, and you see that depicted even in like The Nurses. Yeah. I mean – and that's another thing I love about this movie and I think why someone like Miller was ideal for it. You'll see these weird scenes or shots where you see a nurse talking to the Odonais or to Lorenzo, and they walk away, and then you see her face and her expression just changes.

It's almost like a horror movie thing, but it's not. Her expression just changes to completely neutral, almost robotic. And you realize this is part of their job. This is this person's job. And, I mean, you'll see it with the nurses that come to their house where, you know, like this is how we do things. You have to do it this way. I can't be a part of this.

And even as they want to help and even it's not like they don't care, but there is a certain amount of,-preservation, professionalism, all these things that come into it. And I think Miller as someone who was a doctor probably saw this and understood this on some level with the doctors as well. I mean I'm sure it's something – I mean he worked in an emergency room, right? Isn't that how like Mad Max came about? Yeah, he would like drive an ambulance around to do like DIY surgeries on people. But it is – I mean I'm going to mingle it here. But Yusinov has that line at one point where he's like, your job is to be parents and my job is to not.

Like my job is to see this from the objective point of view and not get clouded by emotions because that's my responsibility. You are not going to be able to extricate your emotions from this situation, and that onus is on me. And they can view that as, oh, you're disconnected, you're at arm's length, you're not understanding the stakes of this.

And he's like, if I was getting as upset about this as you were, I wouldn't be able to do my job. But then also this movie is not clinical at all it feels like a fucking opera and like he'll stage a conference with a doctor in like Charlie Rose like black room

and you know things like that it is as operatic as any movie I have ever seen and it's using Barbara Zadagio for strings and Platoon had just come out like six years earlier so it's kind of like a almost hacky piece of music in a way to use but it works and it's repeating it 8,000 times

it's very referential in that way I mean this is also I mean this is also George Miller's like movie love movie because I mean the scene where they talk about the Night of the Shooting Stars La Notte di San Lorenzo he's using Verdi's Requiem which is the music that's used in the Taviani Brothers Night of the Shooting Stars, La Notte di San Lorenzo, he's using Verdi's Requiem, which is the music that's used in the Taviani Brothers' Night of the Shooting Stars.

I remember. Sure. Like this is a movie that is, you know, referential in that way. And that's another thing that, you know, I mean this is 92? 92. An incredible movie. Yeah, incredible movie year. There was this period in the early 90s and maybe even starting in the late 80s where we get these kind of highly referential, highly stylized auteur films. I mean Cape Fear, Age of Innocence, Bram Stoker's Dracula, this one.

You have all these guys like De Palma and Coppola and Scorsese making quote unquote like studio tentpole movies. Making sort of pulpy movies. Like signing on to pre-existing IP and then you get things like The Untouchables, Carriage, Seawinds. But they're filled with like lap dissolves and all this stuff. And a lot of it I think comes from in the 1980s there was this

kind of run of great restorations of silent films. In part because of the video revolution. But like I think Napoleon is restored in 81 or released in 81. I think Sunrise is restored at the end of the decade. I mean but like there's this period of reconnecting with movie history and suddenly you start to see these movies. I don't know that any of them has directly referenced why they did this, but

you really sense this reconnection and the return of this very lush stylization that feels like I think around this time there's also a restoration or re-release of Magnificent Ambersons. You feel like you're watching like, you know, if Orson

Wells had continued to make movies. Wes Coppola does his Napoleon reconstruction. Right. I mean, I think part of that is, I hadn't thought about this, but it is like that's the period of time, the late 80s, early 90s, where suddenly the movie brats are becoming the establishment. Right, right. Like if not the old guard, they're becoming the guys who are at the absolute peak of the

mountain. If not the old guard, they're becoming the guys who are at the absolute peak of the mountain. And unlike Spielberg who had just sort of pretty much started at the top as someone who was really successful at being populist and in touch with the culture, the other guys had to fight to sort of get to the point where they were able to get access to those major budgets, big name IP, whether it's a remake or it's a book or it's an adaptation of a TV show or whatever the fuck it is. Coppola had sort of gotten to that point accidentally and then lost it hard and is now being given the keys to the kingdom again. Like all these guys are getting to do these things, and that's the first major wave of filmmakers who are like the product of serious film school. It's real film school kids. That's what I was thinking about too. They're coming up at the time. You also have Malcolm X this year, which is like Spike Lee's big first

magnum opus-y kind of movie. You have Unforgiven, obviously, which is more swan song-y, although then Clint made 20 more movies. Dedicated to Sergio and Don. That's his referential movie. You have Altman coming back and making a big fucking movie and the player 20 more movies. Dedicated to Sergio and Don. Yes, 100%. That's his referential movie. You have Altman coming back and making a big fucking movie

in the player rather than like his weird 80s output. Which is also his, I mean, his version of movie love is like, get a load of these fucking assholes

and work in Hollywood. Yes, 100%. And then you also have like the dawn of Tarantino is this year. The dawn of Miramax with the crying game. Yeah.

And the dawn of like, well, I guess it's not the dawn of like this sort of 90's not the dawn of like the sort of 90s sexy thriller but like Basic Instinct is this year

which is maybe the peak of the the like really hard R sort of well they kind of come back with Basic Instinct because before

there was like the 80s had had that they had Body Heat they had all those but then you know Basic Instinct is like more vulgar like Body Heat

is fucking Disney compared to this shit like we can go further guys but i think i mean i saw squircezzy i'm sorry squircheasy speak at the new york film festival a couple years ago because he'll like every year pretty much uh i think almost every year he'll he'll screen a restoration that he'd help supervise and do a little talk back after it. And he did this Q&A. I forget who moderated it, but they actually asked him one question that took up the entire 45-hour long Q&A. It was the best Q&A I have ever seen.

It must have been Ken or whatever. I think it was. It was perfect. But it was just literally, so you've done a lot for preservation and for film history. How did you get started with all of this? And it was one perfect 50 minute... But that question is designed.

How did you get started with film history to Martin Scorsese? Maybe I'm smoothing it over. Picture my mother slaving over the stove. I'm like, alright baby we're on Mulberry Street. I'll buckle your belts. Take your shoes off.

Maybe I'm rewriting this in my mind, but I literally don't even remember the other person interjecting with like, can you elaborate on that? I just remember the other person sitting back with like their arms crossed and letting him go. But he was talking about sort of the baby steps that led to him starting what's it called? The Film Foundation and all of his sort of preservation and such. And he talks about when all those guys started to like break into the studio system and have access to the lot because they were all like these film school kids who were hyper literate, hyper obsessive with everything in a certain way were I think influenced by what the whole Cahiers de Cinema gang looked like to them. Sure.

They wanted to be a new – right. Right. Here are these like eight people who all just sit around all day watching movies like nonstop and talking about them extensively. We want to promote that same sort of like excitement and cultural literacy about the history of film in America, in California. When they got access to all these backlots, they'd go like, oh my god, we can just go in there. They have prints of everything and we can watch them. We can just take a print and we can go into a screening room and we can just stay there and watch whatever we want. And Squarespace, he said, as they started getting these prints and screening them, all of them were horrible.

Like they were like orange and they were melting. And it started with them being like we have to complain to them, which they of course were like who fucking cares. And I think it became like a real cause for them as like the more successful they got, the more responsibility they felt to continue that cycle, which then perpetuated itself onto the bigger their opportunities became as filmmakers, the more their films had to promote a sort of sense of, if I like this movie, I want to step away and research what this is referencing.

Let's get back to George Miller though, because now we're just completely off the George Miller track. It's an interesting little thing. It's interesting. That's very interesting. But he, because he's not one of those guys at all. No. And he's a bit's an interesting little thing. It's interesting. That's very interesting. But like, because he's not one of those guys at all. No. And he's a bit of an interloper.

Yeah. And he's using Hollywood tools and stars here. Yeah. But I feel like he's making something that I'm sure they like this, or like,

I'm sure that the Scorseses of the world were intrigued by this movie or whatever. If they even bothered to see it. If they even bothered to see it. But like, it's not like

this movie is coming out and people are like, you gotta stick around. Right. even bothered to see it, right. But like, it's not like this movie is coming out and people are like, you gotta stick around. Like, welcome to the Hollywood establishment, right? Like, you know?

I wish this movie had come out in the age of Twitter. One of the few things that I wish had happened in the age of Twitter would have been The Nolte memes.

Oh, the Nolte memes. But I feel like it would have found an audience. Sure. Or just in the way that something like Dark Water

or like Margaret or Sully. Right. Sully! We're talking about audience. Well, and just in the way that something like Dark Water or like Margaret. Or Sully. Right. Sully! We're talking about three. Hey, these guys, they eyeballed it with the oil. No, I don't know. I can't do a Sully joke.

But all three of those are movies where I had experiences that are kind of similar to what you described seeing Lorenzo's oil. Right. We're walking up being like, why isn't everyone talking about it? Right. Like Sully I saw a couple weeks in, but I was like, no critics are standing up for this. I guess this movie sucks after thinking the trailer was good. And then I sat there in a theater

like alone at 11 o'clock on a Tuesday and was like, why is no one addressing the fact that this honks? Sully's good. No insensitivity to the geese who got killed by Sully.

Come on, Bill. I don't love Sully. This is Sully. I don't love him. What about all the souls? Do you know how many souls were on that plane? I've forgotten how many souls were on the plane. 15 you know do you know how many souls were on that plane I've forgotten how many souls

were on that plane 155 do you know how many survived all of them every single one there was no chance he could make it to Teterboro he couldn't

so the plot of Lorenzo's they didn't have the thrust they lost thrust he couldn't make it to Teterboro he's what's his name Augusto

Odone he works for the World Bank. They're on the Camaro Islands. That's what they're called, right? The Camaro Islands. This is just the opening credits sequence. By the time the titles are done, you're landed in D.C. And then they're back in D.C.

His son starts acting weird. He has ALD. He has this brain degeneration sort of disease. It's like his body lacks the enzymes to process these fatty oils and so it starts to destabilize your entire nervous system. It's degenerative, right? It melts away your fucking

brain. Yeah, basically. And the film does, we're doing a poor job of explaining it, but the film does a great job of explaining it. It's really invested in explaining it to you. And every five or ten minutes you get like

an analogy you know a comparison sure someone will be like well this is like the wiring of the brain and here

I'll explain what my linen is to you and I love all those explanations like it's like I can easily see a critic saying why are we getting

so many explanations I would not cut a single one in fact I would love like a four hour director's cut of just them explaining the juice of this movie well one might say

and it's also this like incredible in he has from the actual true events which are like here are two people who are very intellectually curious but have no background in Madison Madison I mean right because one of Nolte's biggest scenes is that

scene where he's at the whiteboard and he's trying, right, and, like, she's like, right, this is you. It's just you tackling something you've never had to tackle before. They're obsessive people who,

like, believe in the, like, never-ending quest for knowledge who just then go, like, bear with us. We don't understand this, but let's discuss this in detailed terms that can appeal to a layperson, and let's get into it deeply because we want to know this shit first. Yeah, and the fact is they're smart.

And the movie is not afraid to make them smart. And the movie is not afraid to also say, the fact that these people were intellectually curious led to their being able to do this. There's a certain amount of, you know, and that's interesting. But it does acknowledge that they were a little alienating and they become part of a

community of people whose kids suffer from this disease, and the community doesn't love them. A community of great character actors. I mean, you got Rep Horn, you got Margo Martindale. Anytime you have Ann Dowd and Margo Martindale in the same movie, you're playing with a hot hand. I mean, this is Laura Linney's first movie. And when she shows up, you're like, hey, it's Laura Linney, like same as ever.

It's not like she's strikingly. She really just hit the ground running. Like her first appearance, if she looks like Laura Linney, she's giving a perfect Laura Linney performance. Like she had no adjustment time to being a film actress. You also have the great Kathleen. I never know how to say her name. Will Hoyt? Will Hoyt? As the sister

who is in ER. Dr. Lewis' sister is in Gilmore Girls as Luke's sister. She's always a good sister character. Who has kind of like a sort of fun sister energy. She's a good sister. Yeah. Who has like kind of like a sort of fun sister energy, right? You imagine like her house

is a lot of tchotchkes. She's the sister who went backpacking in Europe and Asia. But we're jumping all around here. It is like, I kept on waiting and I don't know why because I inherently trust George Miller.

I trust your judgment, Bilge. I've never heard anything bad about this movie even if it isn't discussed much. But I kept on waiting for the movie to make a sort of cringey mistake. And, you know, are they going to demonize the doctor? Are they going to demonize

the other families in the support group? Any of those sorts of things. And I think this movie is so good at the sort of, the rules of the game, the great tragedy of the world is that everyone has their reasons right you know in a way that is so heartbreaking and is is kind of equally devastating to the story of this young man's physical and mental deterioration is the story of there everyone has a reason for doing something that seems obstinate,

destructive, closed-minded. And it doesn't shy away from showing you that. That's the thing. It's not like, it doesn't it avoids making those mistakes but it doesn't avoid doing the things that you think it's going to do. It just does them really well. It's not like everyone in this movie

is a saint or a villain. They're just people. Yeah, I mean there's tons of conflict between them and the other families. There's tons of conflict between them and the doctors. And then also, you know, I mean the – I always bristle sometimes when people say movies, certain movies are emotionally manipulative. But this seems like a movie that would be emotionally manipulative. You've got a sick child in danger who's basically dying. Right. You know, they could,

you know, they could tiptoe around it. Right. But they don't. They show you the things that are happening to them. They show you the things that are happening to the other kids.

They show you a child The child witnessing his future. Looking at another child who is further along. When he has the pumpkin. Yeah, I mean, that is, that's the kind of thing that like,

a lesser director would cut. Would either cut or just fuck up completely. And George Miller's like, no, no, no, I'm going for it. Not only that,

and I feel like I'm going to lack the language to explain this properly and hope that you will step up to the plate, but, the first chunk of the movie where Lorenzo's being played

by this main young actor who never acted again, and do you know this, became an editor-in-chief at Forbes magazine. Yeah, Forbes. Yeah, Zach O'Malley. Has written three books on the hip-hop industry. Yeah. He's like some media. And is now writing about celebrity VC culture.

Yes, he is. But also his voice as he degenerates is being done by EG Daily, right? The one thing I wish I hadn't looked up before watching the movie. Tommy Pickles from Rugrats. But also, am I wrong about this? Am I wrong in thinking she is also the voice of Babe? You're right. She's the voice of Babe

in Babe, Pig in the City. And the first one, I believe, Babe is voiced by Chucky. Christine Kavanaugh who is indeed the voice of Chucky Finster. How strange. It really is funny to think there were just like eight ladies

like in the 90s who did all children. Yearsley Smith. Yeah, exactly. Right, yeah. But I regret looking that up in advance because then every time Lorenzo screamed, I was like, that's a rug rat. I recognize the tones of a rug rat.

But also, I think the actor playing Lorenzo changes obviously as he's getting older. Yeah, I think there are four different actors. Right, exactly. But most of them is Zach O'Malley. The first third of the movie is like Zach O'Malley doing performances with makeup augmentation. But he is very visible. He is present in scenes. You're watching his degradation.

And then the last chunk of the film, you have an older actor. He is present in scenes. You're watching his degradation. And then the last chunk of the film, you have an older actor. He's more visible again. You're watching him sort of find a pathway back to some level of agency in his own life. But there's the midsection of the film in which Lorenzo becomes

very visually abstract. Like the movie is not shying away from what he's going through, but you are rarely seeing his face. It always becomes this sort of like Charsker alighting, this very like sort of expressionistic tapestry. And it feels like the sounds of the machines

that are keeping him alive are overpowering everything else. I mean, he starts to feel like some sort of bizarre monster within their home. Yes. And it's everyone's talking about him. And he's almost always in frame, but you're almost never seeing him cleanly. And I think there's an interesting balance of trying to make sure you understand, you're

feeling the disturbingness of the state that this child is in but the film also doesn't become exploitative in trying to show you sort of the medical degradation in graphic detail. Yeah, but it kind of

has to do that I think because it's also conveying it's trying to make you think because it's going to sort of pull the rug out from under you later but he wants us to think

that this child has no self anymore, has no sense of self anymore. Lorenzo's just an idea now that everyone in the movie is debating. Exactly. We're not showing you his face because his face is kind of irrelevant at this point. Yeah. There's that scene where the nurse is just – He's the Palpatine clone. Right.

You know, kind of kept – I mean, the dead speak. We're all just arguing around him. But there's a scene where the nurse is like rushing through the story that she's been asked to tell him. Yeah. And they get in a fight over it. She's really good. Yeah.

Like later on when Susan Sarandon is reading that story and he starts to blink and roll his eyes a little bit. I mean that scene is also so powerful when she's just like, oh my god, you're there. You just can't communicate with us, but you're there. You're growing up. You're older. And I've been reading you Peter Rabbit all this time. I mean, my fucking nightmare, that flipped me out so hard. Like, as much as it's a moment of victory, that it's also tinged with, like, wait a second, this guy has just spent 10 years having the same fucking Peter Rabbit book read to him over and over and over again. He couldn't express himself.

Yeah, I mean. What existential terror. Yeah, it really is. And at that point, you kind of lock into it. And I believe it's right at that point that you get a Lorenzo's eye point of view shot of the mobile hanging above him. And then you get a close-up of him and suddenly you're like, oh my god, there's a person

in there. As she's reading to him, you're seeing from his eyes for the first time in a long time and it also feels like that scene is the first time you're clearly seeing his face in like 40 minutes of screen time. Sure. You know, the movie has just been shooting him from angles where you're seeing someone working his leg. Right, right.

Or you're seeing him in the background out of focus with the machine whirring or whatever it is. Yeah, but there's, right, I mean, I'm just trying to, like, there's so many scenes in this movie that made me sit up. Like, obviously, Nick Nolte falling down the stairs in operatic agony as the camera zooms in on words in a diagnosis book. Like, that was when I first was like, oh, this is, George Miller is here. Right. Like, this is George Miller is here like this is crazy but the scene where the doctor helps him walk in front of all the other doctors

is another scene where the whole time you're like what is this scene doing here this doesn't have anything to do with anything except that it's like something that's happening do you know what I mean it's not like that informs the plot in a major way but it is I'm not saying it's superfluous at all it's very you know Yes, yes. It's not like that informs the plot in a major way. But it is.

I'm not saying it's superfluous at all. Sure, sure, sure. You're seeing that side of the medical industry that's trying to help him and how it can be a little sterile, but it's not unfeeling. The paradox of the fact that in order to help you and in order to help cure this thing, we have to treat you almost like an object. Like a zoo animal. And also that the whole time the doctor is sort of saying like,

I'm going to help kids like you. That the doctors are all kind of acknowledging like, you know, this is a disease that you can't reverse. Like this isn't, we're not going to be able to put the toothpaste back into the tube. The thing that feels very callous and unfeeling, but is sort of just didactic of, look, there's

no pathway out of this. It's two years. It's done. It's too late. The best thing we can do not to be unfeeling is to be able to extract whatever data we need and can from your child. It's like a doctor asking for your organ,

you know, like an organ donation, things like that. 15 years from now, we might crack this, you know, which it's like if you're on the other end of that table, once you start being able to put aside your grief for a second, I think you go, how dare my kid get reduced to, I mean, she almost directly says this. This is my child. This is not some number. He's not a case study.

He's not an example. He's not a data point. But that's the most responsible thing for them to do clinically? Yeah. Sure. And that's why I think that scene of Nolte breaking down in the stairs. Incredible. Incredible scene and so important.

You know, it's like, it's, I mean, to a parent who is discovering this, I mean, this is the thing. I have a problem sometimes with the way grief is depicted in movies because it's, you know, people are such kind of noble sufferers. Sure. And I've seen some films recently where it's like scene after scene after scene of people you know kind of

lightly crying like the idea that you have to be understated with this sort of thing and here George Miller is like let me tell you what it's like to be a father

who just found out his son is going to die his like six year old son is going to die and it is brutal and also incredibly beautiful

like you know if I had to re-watch a scene from this movie, it would probably be that scene, even though it is utterly emotionally devastating. But then you have the other thing, too. I mean, the scene where the doctor delivers the news to them for the first time,

Sarandon does, like, a master class of underplaying. Yeah. Where it's just locked into this two-shot of the two of them. That's kind of like you're hearing the words but not really understanding them. And she's just very calmly asking the logical series of follow-up questions. And as she's asking them, she is recognizing, oh, my God, I'm on the verge of crying. Like she's playing that thing of, oh, I'm surprised that I suddenly can't say these words.

I can't get them out of my throat. And that's the shot. That's the scene where the style stops. Right. That's the scene where like style stops. Right. That's the scene where like the camera stops moving. Yeah. They even like do this whole thing of like the, you know, there's this fan in the background and the doctor's like, oh my God, we don't need that thing. You know, and it becomes totally silent.

Yeah. Really, I think the only time in the movie where it's like total silence. And totally locked down. Another very weird little interesting moment in this movie too, right? Yeah. Why are we seeing this? I love to be clear that we're seeing that. There's another very weird little interesting moment in this movie too, right? Why are we seeing this? I love to be clear that we're seeing that.

Oh, well, we'll get to my favorite little weird thing in this movie. But he is for a guy who is so – his films are so designed. They're so controlled. They're so him trying to fully get the thing in his mind down on film. to fully get the thing in his mind down on film, he does really let actors control a scene, you know, in a weird way. Even if he's specifically directing them to hit a specific thing, the very nature of his filmmaking and storytelling style, the fact that he is such a subjective, emotion-first, visceral, expressionistic filmmaker means you're sort of saying to both the camera and the actors, you're going to sell the feeling

of this thing because I don't want conventional Hollywood sort of histrionics. He's not afraid of melodrama. No, which I love. Which requires a lot of the actor. I mean it's like Douglas Sirk. Yeah. I mean one of the most stylized filmmakers of all time but also includes like actors just like going for it.

The staircase thing, the moment leading up to it where he's reading through all the papers and the papers are cross fading into one another and you're landing very quickly on certain words that are standing out. And the shot that they keep on cross cutting with is Nolte just reading intensely and his eyes are so wide open. It is fully cartoonish. No one looks like that when they are reading something regardless of how worrying the thing they're reading is. But that is how you feel when you're reading something like that. And it's a thing that Miller understands

and it allows him to avoid the scene where people explain everything they're feeling. Which is where these movies slow down and become boring. Yeah, these movies that often are like, don't worry, we'll have a scene that does all that work and that scene is a miserable slog.

Okay, I want to try to very concisely express a thing that I struggled to say in our Fury Road episode, which is already in the can. Rachel marked that this may be an excuse to cut this tangent from the Fury Road episode. So Susan Sarandon said in some fairly recent career retrospective thing where she was going over all of her different

roles. Michelle Pfeiffer was the first choice for this movie. She was supposed to do it. She dropped out because she was offered Catwoman because Annette Bening had gotten pregnant. There was like a domino effect. So then he goes down the line

to the next Witches ofripe call sheet person. Yeah. Right. He's like, Sharon Nolte might not work for this movie. I'll do it with Sarandon. And Sarandon said that the plan when they were making this film, as it was designed, was it would look how it looks at the beginning. And then over the course of the film, it would slowly desaturate and desaturate and

desaturate into black and white until the scene with the book where lorenzo suddenly sort of is able to communicate with them and it would come back into color that that was the whole idea and that they literally could not afford to do it because as opposed to today when bong joon-ho or george miller can just right and put it out online and re-release it into theaters it was a photochemical process that required Right, and put it out online and re-release it into theaters. It was a photochemical process that required retiming every single shot. And she said, we just ran out of money. Weird anecdote.

She said the second – that was the second time that happened in my career. Rocky Horror was supposed to be in black and white until Frankenfutter shows up on screen and then go into color. Also a fun idea. Fun idea. Couldn't afford it, right? So did they shoot it that way and then later realized they couldn't do it? They shot everything in color. And what they couldn't afford was to photochemically adjust it.

So because there is – I mean the film does have a unique cinematography to it. The way everything is lit, like there is – I mean the actors always like just pop in a way that they tend not to in modern films. It's very stark, high contrast, hard lighting. Even a bunch of times does that effect that you and I love, which I've never figured out the formal name for. But it's the thing that, dare I invoke him, Barry Sonnenfeld does in Adam's Family with Angelica Houston where he lights the actors. Oh, where there's literally just like a little light on their eyes. It's just the sliver of their eyes. That's, I mean, yeah. Like they're in

a confessional booth, you know? I mean, the thing with Morticia obviously is just hysterical because it's true in no matter what environment she's in. But he'll do that in this too. Yeah, he definitely has this. It's this thing that I was trying to get at when talking about the black and white version while I don't really care about

it in the Fury Road episode is that for me it feels like a half measure but it also feels redundant because what he's trying to get at is making you think differently about the film you've already seen, right? By presenting in a slightly different format, you reconsider

it a little bit. But all it makes you really reconsider is, George Miller is one of the few filmmakers who still makes movies like a silent filmmaker. Yeah. You know, when you put a thing in black and white, like Fury Road, all it does... Oh, I remember your Fury Road tension now. Cut all of it out. No, don't cut it out.

But this is like, watching this... I kind of dunk on your ass when you say it. It's a great moment. It's a savage burn. I'm like Boston Mark and I'm roasted with a side of mac and cheese. But it is that kind of thing where I was like it's unnecessary. And as much as I would love to see him put out the version where he's color timed it the way he wanted to originally, it's the fact that he is willing to say to Nick Nolte, in this scene, you have to go full Valentino. that he is willing to say to Nick Nolte, in this scene, you have to go full Valentino.

In this scene, I'm going to light it in a way where no room would ever possibly look because I'm going to light it in the way that their brain feels at that moment, you know, when they receive this news. And it is this thing that, like, you know, the old silent filmmakers used to talk about where they're like, it's such a shame that sound came along. People were finally figuring out how to use film.

And then it became this easy crutch where you can just have a person walk on and be charming. it's such a shame that sound came along. People were finally figuring out how to use film. Yeah. And then it became this easy crutch where you can just have a person walk on and be charming. And I love dialogue-based films. I love performance-based films. I love naturalistic films. I love comedies, whatever. But there was something to the fact that

people had to really figure out a way to convey an emotion when so many basic tools were stripped away from theater. You know, from most performance that we knew. to convey an emotion when so many basic tools were stripped away from theater, you know, from most performance that we knew. And Miller is this guy where his movies kind of play like silent films. You could watch this movie for as much as it has all the detailed science medicine talk. You could watch this film and I think pretty much get the entire emotional narrative just from the images and from the visuals of the performances.

That's funny considering how much information is actually dispensed in this film, but yeah, sure. No, that's what I think makes him a master is he is using the dialogue

for things that only dialogue can do. Yeah. And he is using the visuals for the things that people usually rely on visual dialogue to do. It's also just funny

that there are so many people in this movie who are obviously playing themselves, these professionals. The best of them, of course, being the British fucking olive oil guy. Hisudaby, oh my god. Who rules.

And there's that scene where he's like, can you tell him I'm done with that and I'm going off to home now. So this is my example of my favorite little thing that doesn't need to be in the movie. Of course, this guy's an important character. But for this guy to have his own little mini- It rules! His little story that's like, well, I figured I was going to retire in six months anyway, and I'll give it a shot.

And his co-workers being like, should we be worried about him? But I love that shot of the two guys, which is like, you know, like something out of 1940. It's like somehow an Ealing comedy. Yes! Guys, to be clear, what's happening in the film is they need to extract certain fatty acids from

oil to create Lorenzo's oil, right? It's like a chemical, expensive chemical process that no one would ever do because it has no purpose except for this. In the dumbest, most reductive way, after sort of hitting their head against the wall, doing all the things the doctors tell them to do, being told that nothing's gonna

work, Nolte and Sarandon push through and recognize that one of the key issues is that his body is misinterpreting these, what do they call them, long chain. Yeah. Fatty acids. Right. Fatty acids. And they land on this thing that is what if we could trick the body into thinking that

that was being done or that it didn't need to do that and recognizing that there's a relationship between that action and an element in olive oil and thus this film becomes an oil thriller but when you hear the title you go like what's it? Oil Barons?

It is the greatest food movie of all time. The hero should be Italian. It's an olive oil movie. God, the meals in this movie look so good. Anytime he makes a little pasta.

And then those scenes like when he's eating the spaghetti with his hands but you don't see him doing that. You see Nolte doing that and then we move around and see the rest of the family

imitating Lorenzo. I love shit like that. And it is, all those things are very sweet until they, like you say, they almost become sort of fetishistic like in a weird way, right? Like the Peter Rabbit thing. Yeah, like this – they become obsessed with this.

Yes, right. Understandably so. Like what else are you going to be obsessed with if you're a mom to a sick child? That is your – that's your obsession in life. Well, and the scene where she outlines it where she's just like maybe you're right but I cannot live with the idea that maybe he's in there and his mind is totally alive and we're doing nothing. Right. That we're not stimulated.

Right. It's a freaky idea. Even if it's unlikely, what a fucking nightmare that would be. Well, and also the emotional trajectory of the fact that she learns fairly early on that he got it from her. Yeah. Like the fact that this is a thing that mothers carry. Right. And only boys get it, which is just devastating.

Right. And it informs everything she does. And you only ever – you hear it – you learn it once. Yeah. And then later on – and of course it's this thing that's like this unspoken thing between them until finally Nolte blows up at one point. It's just like you're ashamed of you and your poisoned blood. But he has to say it in Italian. He says it in Italian.

The subtitles are kind of cool and interesting. Like a more reserved version of Tony Scott. Right, right, right. Right. And it's really, really – like that is this thing that is informing her character. But the film only touches on it a couple of times. It's sort of unspoken, right? Yeah. And you have people talk around it too, the fact that this is presumably Nolte's second marriage.

He has two adult children. This is her first and only child. She had a child late in life and her siblings did not pass on this gene to their kids. It was a die roll every time and she got the bad die roll. And they say this must be so hard for her because she waited this long to finally have one child. You already have two other ones. And he has that weird guilt about that too, you can tell. The whole time watching the movie,

I knew Sarandon had gotten an Oscar nomination. And I was sort of like, at first, just sort of waiting for her like, whatever, big histrionic moment. And then she, I guess she has, of course, like very emotional moment, but she never has those. She never has like an Oscar scene. No.

Which I loved. Yeah. I'm sort of surprised she snuck in. Yeah, I mean, she never. Especially because this movie wasn't a big deal. I think it was partly just, she was a very respected actress. No. Which I loved. Yeah. I'm sort of surprised she snuck in. Yeah, I mean she never... Especially because this movie wasn't a big deal. I think it was partly just she was a very respected actress. I think she was automatic. And it's weird that, I mean, the only other nomination this got...

Rasta, Emma Thompson. Is the... Oh. The only other nomination this got was the screenplay nom, which is a good screenplay, but that also feels not like honoring the film because the writing is the strong suit. It feels like that thing where they're like, eh, you were right outside of our five, so we'll give you that as a consolation prize. Like, I don't think the film would have gotten nominated for screenplay if George Miller

hadn't also written the screenplay, if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, I think people, I mean, you know, I have no idea what the actual Oscar campaign for this movie was like like if there even was one. I think it was released at Oscar time by a big studio. But I'm sure they played up the fact that he was a doctor. Right. I mean I do remember them playing that up. I remember that was in the press materials.

And I think that was – It's an acknowledgement. But I don't think this was a case where if there had been ten Best Picture nominees, this was not going to be one of them. This was not that well regarded. I guess it clearly had its defenders in small pockets. But this is such a director's movie that it feels so perverse even if you know it's because the movie didn't make much of an impact. Then it got a screenplay nomination. To give him the screenplay nomination.

Did Fury Road get a screenplay nomination? I'm sure it didn't. It did not, right? It did not, yes. And that too is actually such a well-written, I mean, it's filled with just, I mean, quite aside from the fact that screenwriting is not just dialogue,

but it's filled with incredibly beautiful, like poetic dialogue, as is this one. But I think that is the reason it didn't get the screenplay nomination. So many people, even so many screenwriters tend to judge screenplays by dialogue. What they're not acknowledging is that movie has

some of the most airtight economic characterization and plotting of anything in the last 25 years. He's got such an interesting Oscar run. It's so weird. Because of this random nomination. This is his first nomination of any sort.

Right, which is then followed by two babe, you know, producing and writing babe. Right. And then followed by winning an Oscar for making Happy Feet. Right. And then followed by, of course, like the Mad Max Fury Road. Right. His fourth sequel to Mad Max, becoming a critical and awards darling.

We can talk about it in every single episode of this miniseries, and it never will seem like reality. I remember at the—I don't think you were a member yet. Of the Critics Circle? No, I think I was like a year before. But I remember while the—I mean, it didn't win anything from us because we're idiots. That was the Carol year. Carol did really well that year I think. Yeah, I think Carol won.

But I do remember whoever was reading off the – The votes. The votes. The first vote they got that said Fury Road. I think it was for Best Picture. I remember them going, huh. Really? And I was like, really? You were like, what the fuck, dude?

Yeah. It is so funny how we make. I don't remember if that was. I don't remember if the person who was reading off. Someone said, huh. But somebody said, huh. There was that energy. Right, there was a huh.

And I was just like, really? You're like, this is coming. Where have you been? There was the year that, what's the movie called? Support the Girls was a contender. And Eric Cohn had to say jungle pussy like 25 times during the supporting actress vote. Best supporting actress contender, jungle pussy. Just to be clear for those who don't know, that is her credited name as an actress.

It's a great, I actually love her performance in that movie so much it made sense because he has to read out at a certain point you might be reading three names per ballot so it's like Sir Sharon and Kristen Stewart Jungle Pussy just like over and over again

anyway it's a very funny thing we do every year just a bunch of adults sitting in a room writing little names on pieces of paper. Yeah. And then changing those names. Yes. I do love – I love all these little side narratives though.

I mean in the sort of everyone has their reasons, everyone has their own internal life. Yeah. That this guy who finally cracks the code in distilling the missing element, the other oil they need to perfect this cocktail is this is his last thing before he hangs it up in his illustrious career making cosmetics. Yeah. And then the other guy, the chemist with his little workplace affair that's happening. Right, Becky Ann Baker.

Yeah. Constantly, he's like, I don't have time for this. She's always inserting herself. And she keeps calling out and being like, you got a bunch of that's happening. Becky Ann Baker who's constantly, he's like, I don't have time for this. She's always inserting herself. And she keeps calling out and being like, you got a bunch of that lying around. You have six people who could do that.

And I mean, the other thing, after you watch this movie so many times, everyone from this movie that I ever see in another movie, I'm like,

oh yeah, it's the guy from Lorenzo's Oil. For you, this is the baseline. Exactly. You still see Laura Linney and you're like, oh, from Lorenzo's Oil for you this is the baseline you still see Laura Linney and you're like oh from Lorenzo's Oil she's kind of mean about his

behavior in school but each of them has a story like each of them has a I don't know them as the actor from Lorenzo's Oil I know them as oh that's the nurse that like didn't want to read the thing or that's the nurse who you know just felt like they really needed to take him to a hospital like everyone has a purpose and kind of a life beyond the frame,

even though the film is not kind of this Mike Lee, Ken Loach style. It's this very controlled type of film. It really kind of breaks free of the frame too. The Rebhorn scene. He's great. He so rarely plays compassionate people. He plays so many villains and greedy guys. It is always interesting to see him playing more of just a concerned dad.

If you want to cry, which anyone who watched Lorenzo's role in preparation for this movie is probably pretty dried out at this point. Yeah, I don't know that there's a movie that makes me cry more than this. I watched it again. I actually watched it this morning at like 4 a.m. And my God, I was just like, oh God. And I know everything that's happening. I've seen it so many times. And I just couldn't stop.

I very rarely cry at movies. I didn't cry watching this, but it did give me that all-consuming sense of grief and dread that I have not felt for a movie on this podcast since Saving Private Ryan. Wow. Where I'm like, this is exquisitely torturous. Yeah. I understand why it's doing so.

It's not manipulative. But Jesus Christ, this is hard to watch. Yeah. And I was worried that I was not going to be able to keep a straight face talking about it. I was actually worried a little bit this morning. I was like, I hope I'll be able to actually talk about this movie without breaking up. If you want to cry,

look up the stories about when James Redburn died a couple years ago. He was fucking one of the best undersung character actors in the world. To me, a very big deal as well. He was just in a lot of movies I saw as a kid. He was off Independence Day, things like that.

The Game. He's so good in The Game. I got to work with him. As a kid, I loved The Game. Oh, I still love The Game. No, The Game rules. I got to work with him on the failed Chris Gethard sitcom Big Lake. Oh, yeah, of course.

He was the dad, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was a multi-camera show, so I wasn't in scenes with him, but everyone's there all the time. They're just hanging out. But then when I had to go in to do ADR, they were running way behind, and he was the person before me in the sign-in sheet. Right. And I just sat there and talked to him for like 85 minutes, which there are the times that I feel most confident in my decision to pursue acting is when I get to just talk to like a just total

consummate pro nice person character and just hear their stories about everything but when he died he wrote letters to his children that were published that are unbelievable are just some of the most elegant graceful

he also wrote his own obituary that's what I'm thinking of also wrote his own obituary. That's what I'm thinking of. I'm sorry. That's what I'm thinking of. It's his own obituary where people talk about like, oh, he died gracefully. He faced his oncoming death with grace. And so often I'm like, we want to reduce these things to these narratives. Who is graceful in the face of death?

But then you read something like this and it is astonishing. Anyway, parallel to this movie and this emotion, the opposite end of that spectrum, the scene where they invite them over for dinner and they're trying to sell them on the effectiveness as the oil. It's a scene that begins and it's a very friendly – Right. And they've already had tension back and forth with this couple. They proactively reach out. They're so happy that they're being involved into something. Then they get there and they realize that the group is a little bit more emotional

support group for the parents dealing with these things than trying to find a cure for the children because everyone has told them it's impossible. It's two years. You're done. There's no sake in fighting it. The best thing your kid can do is be another data point.

So just figure out how to not let your relationship fall apart. Yeah. You know? And Sarandon has that thing where it's like I have not heard one person say anything about their kids. And Martindale is the one person who they kind of relate to who's similarly bullheaded. Yeah. Right. And they're going back and forth with Reborn and his wife.

They make this slight breakthrough with the first version of the oil, right? Before you say that, though, this film does – I mean here's how good and effective this film is. This film includes the line, but what about the children? Won't somebody think of the children? And it works. It fucking works. And it doesn't sound like a Simpsons character. Right.

It does so many things like that. I mean, you have a scene where the mob is standing up and going, we demand the oil! Give us the oil! Like, this film could have Chappie, and it would be perfect. Like, it'd be like, yep, there's Chappie. Of course, we all remember Chappie. He was part of synthesizing the oil. We have to give him an appearance, you know?

Bilge, I think you might have just added something to the blank check vernacular. There are certain terms that guests have granted us that we then apply to other movies. I think the Chappie test is one of them. Could Chappie be in this movie and not upset its tonal balance? Would Chappie disrupt the ecosystem of this movie? And look, many great films could not survive a Chappie. Oh, yeah. It is not the only litmus test that matters, but it is a test of a certain type of control and conviction and I think sincerity of even Chappie.

Bram Stoker's Dracula could pull off a Chappie. You think it could? I think it could. Just because of tonal control, not because it's perfect. It's got amazing tonal control. Yeah. I think it could. Just because of tonal control.

Not because it's perfect. It's got amazing tonal control. Yeah. That Reborn scene where, you know, it's like, okay, they seem to be on good terms again. These people have sort of bristled at any time that they've tried to suggest any kind of unconventional methods pushing back against the system. But it seems to be friendly. Then they bring up the oil. And Reborn and wife just sort of go like, look, you understand how these things work. Big business.

This is the it takes this much time. You have to invest this much money, this and that. And Nolte and Sarandon push back in the way they do in the self-righteous, like not without my child kind of way. And Reborn just lets loose on them, not with anger, but just with pure frustration of like, do you not understand how fucking difficult my life has been? I understand. I've had three kids. I've had three of these. I understand how frustrated you are.

I went through the same fucking thing. Like, welcome to the club. Now add two. That's been my goddamn life. I don't have the bandwidth to deal with this. I don't have the bandwidth to try and fail. I don't have the bandwidth to try and fail anymore. And it's such an empathetic thing. The horrible concept of

allowing yourself hope again. Which just seems so frightening. Where in movies like this, it is very easy to turn those people into villains to be like, why are they being so unimaginative and stubborn? But the reality is it's really fucking difficult to believe in something. It's like

the most painful goddamn thing in the world and it's, I imagine, a billion times more painful when the thing you're believing in is what you have been told is a completely incurable terminal illness. The other thing that we haven't talked about that I think this movie does so elegantly

is the way it uses times and when it employs its intertitles about time passing and how much of the movie goes on where it's just updating the month and the year and how long it takes until they make it clear 12 months after diagnosis. I mean, there's a lot of restraint.

It's like a case study. Right. And it reminds me of Wendy and Lucy where she keeps on going back to the imagery of her ledger. And you keep on seeing the numbers and being so aware of exactly how much money Michelle Williams has and how much everything is going to cost. So that every decision that is made in the film, you have that info just constantly pounded back into your brain. And the way they just – because at a certain point it gets abstract.

You're like okay we're what we're december of 84 but when did this start i'm forgetting how much time passed and i was thinking oh it's been three or four years somehow this kid is outlasting the diagnosis and then that title card comes in like halfway through that is 12 months after diagnosis the sister shows nolte the picture of the three of them on the beach and goes like, do you remember that was 21 months ago? I mean, all these things where it's how I imagine it feels to be in a position like this, where the days just feel endless, where life just slows down, you know, and it feels like you've been stuck in this forever. And as you're coming up against, well, you know the prognosis they gave him was 24 months. So now we're 18 months after diagnosis.

Now we're 20 months after diagnosis. The second we crack 20, you're like, he could just go at any moment. It's really elegant the way he does it. And which is why all the people that they interact with along the way gain such significance, especially once they start helping them. Like, I mean, Sotheby is a perfect example.

He becomes the hero of the movie in that little scene. Popping off to the shops or something later. Oils on the desk. Yeah, like everybody who helps them, it just feels like such a huge monumental thing they've done when they're just like, we have the oil. Or, you know, I have three dogs that black mile in.

Sure. Or even like the little – the Polish rat study that they find. It just feels like this monumental thing. And it's shot with like this heroic you know, like this heroic crane. Yeah. And then what's that? The scene, the medical conference with the Japanese doctor is speaking and it's like almost a fricking like bond movie or like a Tom Clancy movie or something

like this thrilling conference in this other language, even though it's literally simultaneously bribing everyone with perfect pasta dinner. Yeah. But it's also interesting because you'll see that you see that I think this is that one that conference where they're all sitting there and they're talking and then the camera

tracks I believe and you realize they're still in the hospital and outside there's a corridor and there's like two sick kids being like walking down the corridor and it's like like let's never forget what this is actually about. He doesn't allow you to forget that, and that's really important.

There is a thing I love that movies can do where they get you to acclimate to a normal you never thought you would have accepted at the beginning. So at the beginning, the symptoms that Lorenzo is experiencing are really treated one by one, and you're watching a very, very subtle, gradual sort of diminishing, right? Where every single little thing he loses makes a big impact. And the scene where he's coming down the stairs and he can't speak and she has to translate him.

And it's the first time in the movie where he hasn't really been coherent to anyone other than his parents. Hits you hard. And then it being Martindale's son in the door frame holding the basket. That scene is insane. It's all, I mean, everyone remembers, I think, has some experience as a kid when you see someone who's ill in a way you've never understood before. You don't know how to deal

with it. It's a thousand times worse if you know that you have the same disease that this kid is just a year ahead of you on. But then when, you know, an hour later into the movie, Martindale comes over and the kid is shotgun in her truck. And she goes like he's having a bad day. And Susan Sarandon walks over to him very calmly.

And whereas Margot Martindale is clearly equally uncomfortable at Lorenzo coming down the stairs and not being able to speak, she's now at the state of resignation that Sarandon was at with Lorenzo. And Sarandon is so past that. She is completely unaffected by the fact that now Margot Martindale's son is starting to show those symptoms of losing his sort of verbal ability because she's just like, I remember this. And it gets to a point where you go, God, I wish we were still at that stage of the movie.

We're 40 minutes past him being able to talk, period. The idea of this thing that previously was heartbreaking and was too uncomfortable to watch now seeming like a respite is insane. The shot of the kids coming out of school and tracks to the house, to the window, you know, beyond which like Lorenzo's lying in bed, you know, basically dying. You know, which echoes the shot earlier of the kids coming out of school and Lorenzo was one of the kids. Yeah.

There's that amazing shot too. It's their holiday party. The scene that canonically makes this a great Christmas movie. The Santa coming to the, you know, falling into the camera. It's great. But then there's also that scene where she's like entertaining guests and she's telling a story and it's deep focus of the

windows behind her and you see all the kids playing in the snow and Lorenzo riding by in the bicycle and then one kid running off in his direction and then everyone running off in his direction and the frame becomes completely empty until the girl runs through the door and is like, he's bleeding a lot. There's something very

It's like a horror film. He's using the tools of horror filming. It's something like that in Twin Peaks has that too. The first episode of Twin Peaks. One of the most unsettling episodes of TV ever. He strikes such It's so sad.

Lynch movies are so sad. I think people underrate how fucking sad they are. Like, in a good way. Mulholland Drive. Could have pulled a Chappie. 100%. I'm still thinking about this. Chappie could have said Silencio. Silencio.

I am consciousness. Chappie loves Silencio. Mommy loves Chappie. What's he up to, Bonkamp. Chappie loves Silencio. Mommy loves Chappie. What's he up to, Bonkamp? Chappie? Oh. Chappie has something, right? Isn't there something?

He just announced a new thing. I feel like he's always announcing that he's going to restart some franchise. Well, you're forgetting. He made something, right? The Robocop thing. He was supposed to do Robocop, and it was the Halloween Superman Returns style. It's a direct sequel to only the first one. Peter Weller's back

and Neumeier is writing the script. He has now quit that. Thank God. I feel like they hired someone else who is not the right choice because the only right choice for that is Paul Verhoeven. But he announced he's doing some new low budget horror movie.

And Chappie has not booked anything since that movie came out I think he's running in South Carolina or something right like he's gonna try and he's stealing votes

away from Bernie also often going to movie theaters and pointing out when Leonardo DiCaprio shows up on screen yeah right he's gonna be

at every First Cow screening to tell you that that's the First Cow yeah I believe there literally is a scene in First He's going to be at every First Cow screening to tell you that that's the first cow. I believe there literally is a scene in First Cow where someone says it's the first cow. I just want to check

my notes here quickly. It also just says that Chappie loves Mommy and Mommy loves Chappie. I haven't seen Chappie. I saw it a second time recently. Why? I was with my friends

who I usually, when we hang out. So it was like a fun thing to do. We were like, what's the weirdest thing to watch on Netflix? You weren't just like flipping channels and sort of like, well, settle into some Chappie. This is like the friend group who I made watch Old Dogs and Book of Henry. Like all my Curio movies where I'm like, I really think this needs to be studied. And like Old Dogs and Book of Henry, watching Chappie the second time has that weird effect where you're like,

well, now all of this feels less weird because I've just accepted that Chappie is Chappie the second time has that weird effect where you're like, well now all of this feels less weird because I've just accepted that Chappie is Chappie. The first time you're watching Chappie, and most people never make it past the first time, you go I can't accept any of this. And the second time you go into it and you go, well of course this is Chappie and Chappie loves mommy and mommy loves Chappie and Chappie's a real gangsta.

It's like you're in a film directed by George Miller. It's a given. It's Chappie. The Overton window of what is acceptable has just completely that's what Miller Miller's pushing that window baby

I mean it's Fury Road is all about that you know it's just like the things that are now normal the best thing about Fury Road is right is they're just like

we have to go to Gastown and I'm like I guess they gotta go to Gastown and I guess I know what Gastown is it's like you know that's what I love but as opposed to someone like Blomkamp you know someone does this and I I love. But as opposed to someone like Blomkamp.

You know, someone does this and I'm like, yeah. David's miming the spraying. Blomkamp, who Chappie is him trying to do like, I'm going to mix 18 different tones and emotions and genres at the same time. So glad we're talking about Chappie. And can't pull it off. George Miller, it is – Should have made Chappie.

Should have made Chappie. He probably would have nailed it. Yeah. Yeah. He nailed the talking pig movie. Exactly. He didn't nail anything. Part of a talkie, but a talkie piggy?

We're going to talk about it. A talkie piggy about it. Negative five comedy points. It is bizarre for someone who is such a manic filmmaker in so many ways to also be so thoughtful. Sure. And it is contradictory in a way that I can never quite understand how he pulls off that balance. I guess I don't really think of him as manic. He's high energy

but his movies do always feel very considered even like the Thunderdome's of the world or whatever. I think they are manic and considered at the same time which those two things seem counter intuitive. Are there any other things we're forgetting to talk about? We should play the movie,

the box office game, but yeah, Belga, is there any, right, as the sort of, having seen it so many times, are there little details

that we haven't hit on? Oh God. Professor Emeritus of Loretto University. It's fine if you don't want to say it. No, I mean, there's all this,

I was actually going to look this up because I seem to recall, I mean, there's that scene where Amore arrives in D.C. in their Dulles Airport. And it's shot like a scene out of an opera. Yes, that seems very interesting because this is a character from the Comaro Islands who is like Lorenzo's friend in the first ten minutes and they fly a kite together. And he doesn't reappear until like basically two hours into the movie

like almost near the end yeah and apparently this is a this is a real part of their real person real part of the story right right

but it reminds me of the scene earlier where where Nolte goes to Peter Ustinov at the opera house right

and he's and Nolte's wearing the same overcoat I love a confrontation in the opera house the confrontation in the opera house is great butolte is wearing the same overcoat. I love a confrontation in the opera house. The confrontation in the opera house is great. But then you see the scene later on. It's kind of a throwaway shot of Amore arriving at the airport and Nolte is wearing the same outfit.

I believe Dulles Airport, I think you can correct me on this. I didn't get a chance to look it up. But I think it was designed by the same person who designed the Metropolitan Opera House. And it was the first time, after having grown up in D.C., lived in D.C., the first time, it wasn't until I saw

Lorenzo's Oil that I thought to myself, my God, Dulles Airport looks like an opera house. That's cool. Eero Saarinen, the Finnish architect who designed the Gateway Arch and who designed the famous TWA Flight Center at JFK, the really cool, do you know what I'm talking about?

Yeah. But did he design the opera house? Maybe he didn't. Maybe not. But he has designed opera houses, as you do. The coup de grace for me with this movie, the thing that maybe blew me away the most just because I went, how is it possible that this movie is nearly 30 years old and every film of its ilk has not instituted this choice, has not followed this example?

When this movie gets to its end, sort of title cards explaining what happened after the film ended, it starts with the preface, this film was completed in 1992. and sort of title cards explaining what happened after the film ended. It starts with the preface, this film was completed in 1992. Right. In December of 1992. Yeah. As of the time of its release. It contextualizes.

Yeah, I get you. It's not like Lorenzo is still alive and doing great things it's very specifically like here's the update folks and it also makes you aware you've been aware that you're watching a movie because it's such a self conscious but it is it's kind of like

we're in the theater, this is the movie this is when we finished it here's what's going on now this is our understanding it's placing you in there's so many fact-based movies where i think even if the craft is incredibly strong they can become invalidated over time because our understanding of the actual events changes so radically that it's hard to divorce the film from that and the movie is very smartly like setting up a frame around itself saying like this is the film made

at the time that we made it with our understanding and what results we had seen. As of the making of this film we call them computers.

Right. Lorenzo lived to 30 which was like an additional 20 years past his life expectancy. The father outlived him.

The mother died. He outlived mom. Yeah. Which is also, I mean, there's also like, it's, I mean, that's obviously as a child, you know, you're supposed to outlive your mom. Yeah. But, but like. She died relatively young. She was 61.

She died relatively young, but also like he was so dependent on these people that like, you that like the fact that he lost his mom while he was still alive. I mean just – can you just imagine how hard that must have been? It's very, very – yeah. Yeah. It's very difficult to reckon with. Yeah. And then after – I remember his – I remember their both – not mom's obituary but I remember reading Lorenzo's obituary and then Augusto's obituary, which was not long after Lorenzo's died. Yeah, Lorenzo died in 2008 and Augusto died in 2013.

Right. He moved back to Italy. He moved back to Italy. I mean, it's just kind of like he was basically there to just make sure Lorenzo was okay for as long as he could be. Let's end on that note. Let's play the box office game. So this film opened limited, you know, basically New Year's 1992. So, you know, it's not in box office game. So this film opened limited, basically New Year's 1992. So it's not in the top five.

And it did like one black hat? It totaled $7 million. Yeah, so it's about a black hat. It black hatted it. It did a black hat. But it cost a lot less than a black hat. That's true. It cost about like one quarter black hats.

But it still cost $30 million. Yeah. Which is a sizable enough budget that it was viewed as just that is unequivocally a flop. Didn't do well. Yeah. Number one at the box office in its eighth week. A huge, huge, huge hit. Children's film. I saw it in theaters. Oh, congratulations. In eight weeks

it's made $114 million. It's very well remembered. Is it a Disney film? It is. Is it a Disney film? It is. Is it an animated film? It is. Is it Aladdin? It's Aladdin. The highest grossing film of its year.

The first film my brother saw in a theater. One of the first films that I consciously remember being excited to see. Yeah. I was aware of its release. I remember my dad coming home with tickets, physical tickets that he'd bought on the way home. Yeah. And we took my brother in five minutes and he put my dad's coat over his head and fell asleep. I have a similar memory.

I was three years old or whatever, but I remember going to the theater to see it. I remember looking at the poster as I walked into the theater, and I remember going, Oh, Robin Williams is playing the genie. Really? Yeah, what a weird fucking three-year-old. Oh, they got Robin? That's cool. Bill, do you care about Aladdin? Do you like Aladdin?

I like Aladdin. Do you remember Aladdin? I was in college. I know, yeah. But Aladdin was actually another movie that we reviewed in the... In your arts publication? In our arts publication. Possibly in the same issue that my...

Your Lorenzo's essay. Possibly. But it was not actually... I didn't write the review. My co-editor wrote the review under a pseudonym. Oh. Which is weird. A.L.

Yeah. I am not a huge fan. That's such a weird opinion. A thing that people will drag me for. Yeah, you should get dragged for that all the way to Cave of Wonders. Here's the most surprising Griffin take of all time. Right. I think the 90s Disney renaissance is overrated.

Now, let me ask you this i'm not oh go ahead no no you go ahead have you seen the thief and the cobbler yes i have yeah i mean the thing i remember about aladdin i mean i i liked aladdin when it came out but i remember at the time of roger rabbit um time or newsweek or one of these magazines did a feature on richard williams and i remember a still from The Thief and the Cobbler. And then when Aladdin came out, I was like, oh, this must be The Thief and the Cobbler because that guy looks exactly like the guy. And it wasn't.

And there was no Richard Williams mentioned anywhere. And I remember like – and this was obviously pre-internet. For years I was like, did I imagine this other movie called The Thief and the Cobbler like Richard Williams, Roger Rabbit I had no reference things to look at I was just like I must have dreamt this I must have dreamt this other movie

and years later I was like right right right this is a whole thing absolutely corporate espionage it is like ants in a bug's life except he never got to finish his movies but they were also the designs are the same and a lot of the animators who worked on is like ants in a bug's life, except he never got to finish his movie. Yeah, but they were also, like a lot of,

the designs are the same. And a lot of the animators who worked on, that was the other thing. I mean, everybody and his mom worked on Thief in the Cobb because it took so long. That's the thing. Some of them moved to Disney and became animators.

The Lion King was literally like intellectual theft. It was them seeing something and being like, let's copy that. Aladdin is a little more like, that was just, I mean, that movie,

Thief in the Cobb was from like the 60s, right? Well, he was working on it for 30 years. like let's copy that Aladdin is a little more like that was I mean that movie even the cobblers from like the 60s right well he was working on it for 30 years and he was self-financing it so he would only be able to hire animators

to work for like two months and then he'd be like well maybe a year or two for now I'll call you back and they started going like can you draw like the Sultan that you've been drawing for him

the thing I feel about the Disney Renaissance maybe your maybe your problem is the music I don't know because to me the thing I like about the Disney Renaissance. Even the cobbler slaps. Sure. Maybe your problem is the music. I don't know. Because to me, the thing I like about those, I think Ashman is just a genius. And that's why I love those three movies because of his lyrics. Like, that's the thing.

Look, I was the biggest Disney kid. Sure. I don't want to, 25 years later now, assume the role of the Gen Xers who were poo-pooing these movies at the time. Right. All the songs work. I cannot deny that. I am not the Grinch. Okay? I love these movies. I have great fondness for them. Rewatching them

all pretty recently as I have Disney Plus and even like eight years ago when they were all on Netflix, I gave them all a run through. I just find them so un-nuanced in their storytelling and so manipulative. We should talk about that. Well, do notgrave Clements at some point. Walt Disney's blank check.

The thing is, I don't really like The Lion King. That's where they lose me, is Lion King and on. I do the Asheron movies a lot. What do you guys think of some of the, I mean, like Hunchback. What do you guys think of that? That's okay. I love Hunchback.

That's my favorite one. I love Hunchback. Hunchback is great. Yeah, Hunchback's great. Hunchback is best Disney's renaissance, as long as we're not counting Emperor's New Groove. No, that for me is post-Renaissance. That's its own thing.

But that's Emperor's New Groove and Lilo and Stitch I like more than any of the 90s, 80s movies. Yeah, yeah. I think of that era, Hunchback's the best one. Hunchback is great. I think the other ones, the songs are undeniable, but I don't love the movies. Well, the thing, Hunchback has also, for some reason, the score clicks in that one. The songs click in that one better than they do for me. And, I don't know, Pocahontas.

I'm trying to think of the other late night. Mulan, I don't like the music. Plot Take Pocahontas is my number two. I mean, I was never a huge fan of the songs. I mean, I was the Gen Xer who was like, yeah, whatever, the Disney songs. That wasn't a thing for me. But re-watching Beauty and the Beast recently for a piece, you know, it – That piece was really good, by the way.

Thanks. It really, like, brought back how good it is. Beauty and the Beast is insanely good. And the score – It's honestly the best one. Quite beside the – I mean, the songs are fine, again, but the score is great, too. The score is fucking incredible. That opening with the score – Yes but the score is great, too. The score is fucking incredible. That opening with the score...

Yes, the score's incredible. Ash and Mencken are geniuses. Yes. Especially Ash. Mencken can pull off a Chappie in Beauty and the Beast. 100%. It'd be great. I love Chappie in Beauty and the Beast. Put him in right now. Yeah. I wish we could

figure out a way... Muscleine Clans, we figured this out They did Aladdin though? It covers enough of it, yeah Didn't they not do Aladdin? They do Great Mouse Detective, Little Mermaid, Aladdin They do do Aladdin, I can't remember how it trades off Treasure Planet, it's perfect It's the entire Rise and Fall

It starts pre-Renaissance, ends post-Renaissance Beauty and the Beast are the ones who never really did another big movie again. Minkoff? No, Minkoff is Lion King. I just interviewed these guys. Lion King is... Is Beauty and the Beast Trousdale and Wise?

Yeah. Okay, it's those two. Right. And then Minkoff is... Minkoff is the Lion King guy. Right. I don't know. Anyway.

We'll do Muscle and Pals. Obviously, our whole director thing doesn't work quite as well with the Disney animated movies because they were. You'd have to do like a Katzenberg. We're going to do Musker and Clements because they present a nice microcosm. I'm calling it right now. We'll do Musker and Clements April 2027. Great.

No, we'll do it earlier than that. All right. Number two. Yeah. Good movie. Just like a real fucking movie that you watch on cable

all the time and like old dogs I wonder what you think of this movie I genuinely have no idea it's like a really

solid Hollywood movie with big movie stars written by a big shot screenwriter big shot director or is the screenwriter he's a big director at the time

he's become a bit of a laughingstock. Is it a Reiner? Yeah, I was going to say. Is it A Few Good Men? I was going to ask is it A Few Good Men? At first I thought maybe Sneakers. Well, Sneakers is a 92.

But Sneakers had two screenwriters, right? Because it was Walter Parks and his writing partner. Really? Yeah, I think so. Okay, right. I mean, I know it was directed by Phil Alden Robertson. But, I mean, if it were Sne, David's hint would have been, what movie fully thrusts his consciousness into you?

Because, by the way, I'm no longer saying that things fuck. In Honor of Emperor Palpatine, I'm now saying that things thrust their consciousness upon you. What do you think of A Few Good Men? I genuinely wonder. I really like A Few Good Men. I did not love A Few Good Men at the time. A few years ago,

I had to do a Tom Cruise ranking for Rolling Stone. Sometimes you just need some grist for the middle. It was great because I had like six, seven months to do this piece, possibly even longer. And I just rewatched every time. Even the ones I'd seen a bunch of times, I just rewatched everything. Right. In order. And I just –

In order is fun and I really just got this like renewed appreciation for Tom Cruise and the choices he made and a few good men was in there

I was like why don't they fucking make movies like this anymore now when you watch it please somebody fucking make movies practically avant-garde

Reiner though I mean his run you know up until a point is incredible that is one of the greatest runs ever. It's absolutely bulletproof. Right, right. Until it's not.

Except for North, but then he comes back briefly. But look here, North is the exact kind of bad movie I want to cover on this podcast. Yeah, North's at least interesting. North, I'm all in on. It's everything after American President doesn't exist, and there are eight of them. Yeah, there's even more. There's even more.

There's so many. Well, there's one written by his son. There are like three Woody Harrelson political dramas. Ghost of Mississippi is okay. That one's all right. Ghost of Mississippi is the one right after

American president. Yeah. Oh, okay. That's 98? 96. And then there's Story of Us and that's sort of when he just, I don't know,

starts to make very anonymous films. If his career ended at Story of Us, we would do it, no question. Right. Everything in the 21st century, I don't know, starts to make very anonymous films. If his career ended in a story of us, we would do it, no question. Right. Everything in the 21st century, we don't want to talk about. You have to do that one with like Morgan Freeman on an island. Yeah, Magic of Belle Isle. Right.

And like the four LBJ biopic type movies, right? He's got a kid romance called Flipped. He took over as the director of Rumor Has It three weeks into production. I mean, the bucket list. Bucket list might be the worst film ever made. We just can't do it. All right, all right, all right. But anyway, A Few Good Men, huge hit.

It's made $77 million in a month. It was a big fucking movie that people went to see. This was the run where he couldn't miss, where it's like Spinal Tap, Princess Bride. Stand By Me. Stand By Me. Like the guy just every time hit straight bullseye. Number three at the box office.

A kid's movie. It's a sequel. It's a colossal hit. It's a colossal. It's a bit of a rejection of its fundamental premise. Honey, I blow up the kid? No. But it's also just a complete repeat of the first movie.

Interesting. I mean, this is. You know what I mean? Like he's not actually title, but I mean, you are just repeating the movie. He's not actually Adam's Family Values. You're talking about one of my favorite phenomenons. Right. I mean, I always talk about Big Mama's House 2 and how much it reflects how you can't replicate

the exact same circumstances. Okay, so it rejects the premise, but it has the same... It doesn't reject it at all, though. It's just like when you think about it, you're like, oh, okay. The title no longer applies, really. It doesn't fully apply. all, though. It's just like when you think about it, you're like, oh, okay. The title no longer applies, really. It doesn't fully apply. I mean, they add a subtitle to make it make sense. So it's not a full beta.

You're not saying the rules don't apply. They're partially applied. I've gotten myself in the weeds here. You really? This thing made $173 million, and that's probably half of what the original made. The original was such a big hit. Wow. A big star?

I mean, at the time, I guess so. He's famous for these movies. He's famous for these movies. And he made other movies. Like, he was a big star when we were kids. Sure.

He would be above a title. Above a title. I mean, this is an obvious movie. Palazzolo. How many movies made like $350 million in the early 90s? Like a family movies made like $350 million in the early 90s? Like a family movie that made $350 million.

It's on Terminator 2 Judgment Day. No, no, family movie. I mean, this movie is about a kid. This movie is about a kid. It's a kid star. Oh, it's Home Alone 2 Lost in New York. Right. He's not Home Alone.

No, correct. I mean, like. Another, I watched both of those on Disney+. He's City Alone, I guess. The title itself, you know, like Home Alone Lost in New York. Correct. He's unparented. New York Alone.

It's called New York Alone. I had never watched. That sounds like an Ed Burns movie. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm pretty sure Tom DeCillo made that movie sometime in 1997. I had never watched two in its entirety. I had just seen many parts of it on cable. That's the one I've seen 40 times for some reason. I've seen elements

of it so many times. I'd never watched it straight through. Those weren't movies I grew up on. My parents were anti-Colkin. They thought they were very cynical. They thought they were cynical and violent. But as with my Disney renaissance sort of flush Disney Plus reopening a lot of these films that were not very streamable for a while, I was like, I'm going to watch both Home Alones back to back.

And mostly with the test of I know everyone makes fun of this, but how do they fucking justify it happening again? And how do they fucking justify that type? It's a connecting fight or something. They just have so many children. They do have way too many children. They should call the herd. It's the one scene I love in Home Alone 2 where they're meeting with the person and they start to realize, wait, is this a pattern? Right.

It's funny. The detective is like, this has happened multiple times. She's very funny. Catherine O'Hara. All right. Number four is another huge hit of 1992. A fucking phenomenon. Not a good movie, in my opinion.

Not a good movie. But a huge hit of 1992. A fucking phenomenon. Not a good movie in my opinion. Not a good movie. But a huge hit. Like a music drama? It's a music drama. I guess. It's The Bodyguard? The Bodyguard. How do you describe The Bodyguard?

It's like a romantic drama. Yeah, a romantic drama. Right. Romantic action movie. It's not a good movie. It's not. It's not. But are we allowed to say that?

I think we are. I feel like people love that we allowed to say that? I think we are. I feel like people love that movie now. Do they? I don't know. Do they just love Whitney? Like, is it just the sort of Whitney power? Maybe. Nick Jackson film.

Yeah. You know, not like a... But a project that was passed around. 100%. And was one of those, like, they put a million people into both roles. Yeah. And, like, I think the reason he has the haircut is because it was originally supposed to be Steve McQueen, but somehow his hair stayed.

Right, because they would just keep pasting people's faces onto him. It's like Alien 3. They're all bald because originally they were supposed to be monks or something like that. Right, right, right. Yeah, I don't like the bodyguard that much. Yeah. I remember I've seen it like once. It's very long.

Rarely, and I guess this has to do with it being Christmas time, but rarely do we get a top five that is just such a perfect snapshot of this year. This is the year, sure. Yeah. All right, number five. Oh, boy. Is this going to break the pattern I just called out? No, no, I don't think so.

It's a bad movie. good very bad don't do it I feel like sort of a mocked movie At the time A star we've discussed That Miller works with a lot Oh Mel Gibson It's 1992 and the movie is mocked

I feel like this was People made fun of this movie It's 1992 and the movie is mocked. I feel like this was people made fun of this movie. It's a period piece. Oh, it's Hamlet. It's not Hamlet. I think it's the screenwriting debut of a big name. Like he goes on to be a...

So it's not Maverick written by William Goldman. It's not Maverick, which is a perfectly fun movie. It's not his screenwriting debut. He'd already written a movie or two. Jesus. Fuck. I don't fucking know.

It's Gibson. It has like a weird sort of sci-fi twist. Oh, is it Forever Young? Forever Young. Written by J.J. Abrams. I remember seeing that in theaters. I've never seen Forever Young. How is it?

I remember not liking it very much. Another very romantic movie. Forever Young. Right, right. Another very romantic movie. Hollywood used to make those with grown-ups. Now it only makes them with young people, I feel like.

More makes the sort of like... I mean, I think it barely makes them even with young people. Right, even with young people. But like, you know, when you think of the far and a ways, right, you know, like just like a,

quote unquote, chick flick. That stuff only exists years long serialized television. Sure. Like Outlander single handedly has to carry the weight of all adult romance films that used to exist. It is one of those genres that I often looked on with suspicion when those movies were coming out. And now I would really just love. Just kill me for those. Seriously. Just please bring back. Knights in Rodan. Yeah. suspicion when those movies were coming out and now I would really just love seriously just please bring back

bring back the mid range Diane Lane's whole touchstone run we were talking about this bring back Martha we were talking about this when we did the Mintrian Candidate remake for Demi where there was like so much cynicism to like, why won't Hollywood stop remaking these classics?

Oh, by the way, an interesting thing about the Manchurian Candidate remake. I was listening to your podcast about it. I don't know if you guys – Humblebrand. But like the fact that it came right after – Stepford Wives. Well, no. Oh, and Truth About Charlie.

Truth About Charlie. The thing about Truth About Charlie was – I didn't listen to that episode, so after – Stepford Wives. Oh, and Truth About Charlie. Truth About Charlie. The thing about Truth About Charlie was – I didn't listen to that episode, so it's possible you discussed this. You would enjoy that. It was originally supposed to be Will Smith. Yes. Right. But that was – a friend of mine was an assistant to Jonathan Demme. And I remember she said Jonathan Demme's project is to try and remake these classic Hollywood movies with black leads.

Sure. Like he wanted to do that. That was his original. That makes much more sense as an impetus for those two movies. And then it's so funny that Wahlberg is the one. Like he's not even like, you know. I mean, that's a whole other thing.

But it is. But in the case of Mentoring Canada, it was very much. It's Genzel and Kimberly Elise. I think it was very much like he didn't get to do that with Truth About Charlie. So he's trying again. That makes a lot of sense. It does make a lot of sense. It's Genzel and Kimberly Elise. I think it was very much like he didn't get to do that with Truth About Charlie, so he's trying again. That makes a lot of sense.

It does make a lot of sense. It's fascinating. Here's some other movies that were in the top ten. Hoffa, which we were just talking about, a Danny DeVito miniseries. Little series for a little minute. The Distinguished Gentleman, that's an Eddie Murphy goes to Congress comedy, correct? That was one of those just – I feel like that was such a video store movie. That VHS

cover so burned my brain where he is lifting the top off of Capitol Hill and he's like pulling money out of it. I mean, pretty funny. Have you seen The Distinguished Gentleman? I have not seen The Distinguished Gentleman. I've never even come close to watching that movie. No, a movie I saw in theaters at this time that scared the shit out of me, Muppet Christmas

Carol, Incredible film. And Toys. One of the greatest blank checks of all. Barry Levinson's Toys. I like Toys. Oh, Toys, too. It's likable. Toys is, I mean.

Talk about a weird movie. Yeah. But also. A huge bomb. I mean, like, cannot be overstated how badly that film. Do you know what Toys are? A huge bomb that everybody thought was going to be a huge bomb. I mean, like, cannot be overstated how badly that film. Do you know what I mean? A huge bomb that everybody thought was going to be a huge hit. Humongous.

Because those trailers, people loved the trailers. Yeah. People loved the trailers. It just seemed like it had everything going for it. They were talking about how, like, Dr. Strangelove was one of their models. It just seemed like. There was, like, a Sega Genesis game. Yeah. This movie was going to be, like, you know, this was going to like sweep the Oscars or

something. Everybody thought this was going to be a huge hit. And it comes out and it's just like, people were disgusted. People were like, what the fuck is this? They were angry. They were furious. And anytime you got your Robin, you know, you lean too much into the child at heart thing.

Sometimes I feel like it's sort of like Chappie. People are just like revolted. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Chappie though would fit in fine. A hundred percent. He'd waltz right in.

I mean, it is a, it is. And also Robin Williams would do great in Chappie. A hundred percent. Yeah. What were you going to say? Sorry.

No, I was, you know, I mean, but I mean, when you think of Levinson, you're like Diner, The Natural,

Young Sherlock Holmes, Tin Man, Good Morning Vietnam, Rain Man, Avalon, Bugsy. It's like, this guy can do no wrong. And he's like, I'm going to do it. Yeah, and I remember at the time I was really down on Levinson because I hated Bugsy. Right, and Bugsy, it does have that kind of like sort of glossy, big, biopic-y. Glossy, big, but also like it's trying to be a godfather but it's not the godfather. It's not that good.

And it was also nominated for all these Oscars. It got a zillion Oscar nominations. It's still Keitel's only nomination, I believe, which is one of the strangest things ever. I was watching like the Siskel and Ebert. It didn't win a single one. But I remember we were so happy when Silence of the Lambs swept that Oscars

because people really thought Bugsy was going to win. That's the thing. I was watching the Siskel and Ebert special from that year and they were like, well, obviously Bugsy Bugsy was going to win. That's the thing. I was watching the Cisco Niebuhr special from that year and they were like, well, obviously Bugsy's the front runner.

Like, that's the behemoth. 11 Oscar nominations already? I think. Yeah. It actually did. It won for production and design and costume design. But it got two separate

supporting actor nominations. Ten nominations. Yeah, Keitel and Kingsley both nominated. Obviously Beatty. Director. Toback for writing it. Cinematography. Ennio Morricone's

score. I mean he really did get everyone on board. He should have won for score. Of course Morricone never won anything back then because the Disney movies kept winning them. Yeah. Beauty and the Beast. Well a score you just praised was the winner. A good score. And admittedly Bugsy. Terrible movie

but great score. Do you think Bugsy is the most tobaccy in all of Levinson's films? Oh, my God. All right. Levinson falls into that exact Rob Reiner category. It's what you're saying. Like the thing you just outlined is an amazing blank check arc. And then there are ten movies after that that just our ratings would crater.

Right. The Humbling. Yeah. Interesting movie. Humbling is an interesting movie. But, I mean, how many professional critics at gunpoint would remember that in the last five years there was a Barry Levinson, Greta Gerwig, Al Pacino romantic dramedy? I just watched it like six months ago. You're the one.

Are you doing a Pacino or Gerwig ranking or something? No. But I did re-watch it. Not re-watch it. Watch it. Because I was just like, what the hell is this? I didn't know about this movie. I saw the DVD.

I was like, what the fuck is this? That's the thing. How does this exist and no one's ever discussed it? One crazy final thing about Toys. Toys was the root of Robin Williams suing Disney because he felt like – Because he thought Aladdin was taking box office space from Toys. Yeah. And he was like, Toys is my precious jewel.

It's kind of like – It's my gem. Yeah, when people are like, well, this candidate is taking votes from – I don't know if Toys is taking Aladdin's money, Robin. Yes, the Bloomberg of its time. And it was also that thing that like when Lorenzo's oil flopped, it pledged all of its delegates to Aladdin. That's true. That is true.

Don't blame Aladdin for toys. It pledged all its oil to Aladdin. Because that lamp's empty now. Genie's not in it anymore. They had to put a little oil in that lamp. Bilge, thank you very much for being on this very stupid show. Oh, it's a great show and what a wonderful episode. I'm just kidding.

It's always a pleasure when you're on the show. Thank you. This was fun. And I'm glad we got to engage with this movie. Me too. Right. I mean, this is a...

How many podcasts ever have any reason to do... Who the fuck ever talks about Lorenzo's Oil? Two plus hour Lorenzo's Oil episode. Bill, God, people should

read everything you're writing on Vulture because you're one of the best people in the biz. Thank you. I don't know if I should be looking.

You're an incredible critic. You're an incredible critic. Amazing writer. I don't know. You want to plug Twitter?

Oh, God. I hesitate to even. It's my name on Twitter. Honestly, watch Lorenzo.

Yeah, that's where you want to plug. Plug that oil. Blu-ray coming soon from Kino Laura. We're hopefully off by the time this comes out. Hey, that's where you want to plug. Plug that oil. Blu-ray coming soon from Kino Lorber. Hopefully by the time this comes out.

Hey, baby. And thank you all for listening. And please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew Gouda for our social media. Leigh Montgomery for our theme song. Joe Bonaparte rounds for our artwork. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to patreon.com backslash blank check for special features.

Our second bonus feed uh and as always chappy thrust his consciousness into all of us