Blank Check with Griffin & David - Manhunter with Chris Cabin and Eric Szyszka

Episode Date: June 2, 2019

This week, Chris Cabin and Eric Szyszka of the We Hate Movies podcast joins Griffin and David to discuss the original Hannibal Lecter film: 1986's Manhunter. But what motivated producer Dino De Laurentiis to scrap the adapted title Red Dragon in favor of Manhunter? Did Michael Mann's research involve becoming pen pals with an incarcerated murderer? Is poet and painter William Blake's Great Red Dragon on fleek? Together they examine the performances of William Petersen and Brian Cox, the work of novelist Thomas Harris and the complete Lecter-verse (including Hannibal Rising), Walt Disney’s frozen head and serial killer home design aesthetics. 

it's just you and me now podcast like to advertise this movie with it's just you and me now, podcast. Like, to advertise this movie with, it's just you and me now, sport. Yeah. Like, if I go to see this movie thinking it's going to be that tagline, not what I expected. Well, the context clues are, the movie's called Manhunter. He's a Manhunter. You're assuming there's a manhunt. Sure. So you're like, I can kind of see how that fits in, but the line on its own isn't like,

It sounds like something you say at a golf game. It's a grandfather. You don't call anybody sport. That's like Peter Fox. Like, here, I'm going to show you how to play baseball kind of movie. For a second, I thought he was going back to Florida with his family. You and me now, sport. Like, yeah, you would say that during a chess match, right?

Right. The other one I was going to do. An amateur chess match. Not even a high stakes one. Right. You said that during a high stakes one, the guy would be like, huh was going to do... An amateur chess match, not even a high stakes one. If you said that during a high stakes one, the guy would be like, huh, sport? Call me an asshole. Even if you said that in like a Washington Square Park chess match, they'd be like,

you don't deserve to be at this table. This table that is often occupied by homeless people. And he's talking to someone who murders and bites people. It's a little casual. I'll say. Hey, sport. It's you and casual. I'll say. Hey, sport. It's you and me now. The other one was,

and if one does what podcast does enough times, one will become as podcast is. That's pretty good. Is he trying- Do you see? Yes. Is he trying to be not Scottish in this? Yeah. He's got the weird inflections.

A little bit of it. He smooths out his accent. As time goes on, he becomes someone who can- He's a weird accent guy. Because him and X2, he's doing sort of a southern accent,

but half the time you're like, wait, is this guy supposed to be- It's halfway. I was burning villages in Nam while you were still sucking on your mother's teat. He does say that.

He has that thing kind of like Liam Neeson, where even when he's playing an American, you're like- It's halfway there. I was burning villages in Nam while you were still sucking on your mother's teat. He does say that. He has that thing kind of like Liam Neeson where even when he's playing an American, you're like... He's not American, right? Right. This doesn't sound like an American talk. Right. It's like, is he a Scottish guy

who moved to Kentucky when he was 35? That's the only way I can explain this. Right. In any Liam Neeson movie where he's like, I was born in Louisiana. But every single person who has played Hannibal Lecter Yes.

is not American. Correct. Hannibal Lecter is American, I guess, but eventually you realize he's from Europe. Well, Lithuania. Right.

If the TV shows would be believed. Yes, that's right. Right. But the rundown is Welsh, Scottish, French, and Danish. And Mads is Danish, right?

Okay, so we were talking about this yesterday, and I'll introduce the show in about 45 minutes. But David and I may blur a little bit, but now we have two guests to discuss this with. How weird it is that Hannibal Lecter is a franchise.

Yeah. And I know that this movie is the one that's like outside of the continuity. It counts. Yeah. The name is spelled differently. Yeah. Spelled differently. So it's just a double, right?

There's like another Lecter. Right. And I think because we were going over, there's the weird thing where Dino De Laurentiis is producer on every Hannibal Lecter movie other than the one that won Best Picture. Right. Right. And I think it's because they misspelled it in this. I think there was

some loophole. I can probably look up what the vagaries of why he doesn't own the rights to The Silence of the Lambs are. It's something to do with that. He had to give permission where he was like, you can use the characters because I'm not going to make another Thomas Harris movie. Right, they're all

different books, so maybe he didn't own the rights to just that Silence of the Lambs? I don't know, but then Dino De Laurentiis was sort of just like, hey, you want to take my advice? Don't make a Hannibal Lecter movie. It always loses money. He owned and then they made Silence of the Lambs.

I think it's just that he may have just owned Red Dragon. Weird. I don't know, though. Because didn't he produce Hannibal? Like, Hannibal? Hannibal Rising. All of it. Hannibal's terrible, right?

Yeah, he did. It is terrible. Well, that's the thing I was talking about with Griffin. One, that it's crazy that it's a franchise in Hollywood that there's a psychiatrist who eats people. Right. And he's kind of a middle-aged gentleman. Right. Two, it's insane that the guy who's most iconic for it, Hopkins, only is in one good movie

and the other good things are not Hopkins. And people like those too. Yeah. Well, I think Anthony Hopkins is a pretty good actor. He's a good actor. And he's done other good movies. You said he's only been in one good movie. No, I'm saying his other lectures.

One good Hannibal movie. Oh, okay. Come on. His other lectures are bad. Like, no one's like, I love Red Dragon. Come on. His other lectors are bad. Like, no one's like, I love Red Dragon. Ratner really knocked it out of the park. Like, people are like, oh, it's okay. I've met people who think that.

That's insane. People who are like, that's his good movie, don't you know? I'm like, no, it isn't. Is it Ratner's good movie? You can make that argument. He didn't fuck it up. Like, it's okay. That was that run where Ratner was like, what if I was classy?

And everyone's like, you don't have to even try. When are you guys doing Ratner on the show? Oh, boy. You know, I mean. You bitched him. Right. In my opinion, he is the definitive opposite of our show.

Because he never really got a blank check. He was a total journeyman guy who a studio would be like, come in and only do an adequate job. And if you push back with us at all, fuck you. Right. And you know what's interesting? It was like, I'm not pushing back, baby.

This sounds great. He did have a couple of blank check projects that never get me. Oh, really? Like his totally ill-advised Hugh Hefner biopic that he wanted to make forever and ever. I'm sure that would go. He should make that now. He should make that now. That would kill.

Ocean's Eleven was supposed to be his blank check. He developed Ocean's Eleven. Right. And then he dropped out to do Superman. Sure. And then got fired off of Superman. Right. But he like always had this resentment that Soderbergh got to take it to the finish line.

He was like, I wanted to do Downey Jr. Hugh Hefner, which would have been a nightmare movie. Yep. You know what his best thing is? Brett Ratner? Yeah. Rush Hour 1. The prison break pilot. That's the best thing he's ever directed, in my opinion.

Yeah, I love that pilot. It's such a good pilot. He's one of those guys where it's like... You guys can weigh in on Brett Ratner's best work. I mean, it would have to be i didn't hate red dragon so i guess it does have to be that kind of leaning that way too because brett radner just doesn't make the movies i like but now mcg guys oh that is a blank check candidate if i ever heard of one we could do mcg we could do mcg i think it would be boring and the drop off off recently. It's like Netflix. The Netflix Bella Thorne movie.

What's it called? It's called The Babysitter. And he did the Haley Steinfeld The Cause movie. Right. Oh, Three Days to Kill. Correct. Not good. This Means War.

Not so good. But they both had that thing. I just got that you're talking about kevin costner i'm trying to take it back i'm trying to rebrand it i think someone in the world should be called the cause and kevin costner still rules you know what the best thing no you know what he didn't direct the oc pilot he just developed the oc i was about to say mcgee's best thing lineman directed the dog lineman didn't he do fast lane yes that was a mcgee he does a lot of tv he do Fastlane? Yes, that was McG.

He does a lot of TV. He did like the Lethal Weapon remake that has lost every actor. Like everyone keeps quitting and they're like, we're going to keep making this for some reason. Yeah. Right?

Yes, no. All facts. I do love that like the McG Ratner parallel thing where they're like, okay, but seriously, I'm a serious director. Like they both went through those phases where they were doing all this press where they're like, okay, but seriously, I'm a serious director. They both went through those phases where they were doing all this press where they're like,

I know it's easy to dunk on me, and I'm a music video guy, and I'm kind of a greasy goofball. And I call myself McG. Right. Right, but do you remember when he was doing Terminator Salvation Press? Sure, yeah. And he was like, look, James Cameron wasn't James Cameron when he made Piranha. It was Terminator that

like, and I'm saying I don't want to jinx it but I feel like this is going to be my Terminator and they were like Terminator Salvation is your Terminator?

It is your Terminator it is I mean that's what it is it literally is your Terminator right he did We Are Marshall

he did that was him trying to be serious right yeah which you know the whole thing with that movie

is that he hates planes he refuses to fly. So he made it because he was like, this is the movie that reaffirms my belief that planes are evil. It's the one thing I'm fully on board with McG. Because they kill an entire football team. You could do it back to back with Lars von Trier now, right? Another no plane guy. Yeah.

Just no plane podcast. Plane check. Mick G was hired to do Superman when Ratner got fired had a green light and they said but you have to film in Australia

and he quit the movie I total respect as someone who is a major I hate planes I'm not a fan of him either I do remember

something about like right when he was I think it was Charlie's Angels he was doing press for that and somebody actually asked him

is it Mick G or MCG and he got really angry he was, I think it was Charlie's Angels, he was doing press for that. And somebody actually asked him, is it Mick G or MCG? And he got really angry. He was like, fuck you. It's clearly Mick G. Yeah, it's Mick G because people were confusing with MC Ganey. Right.

He just got the sweats and you could tell he was kind of pissed off by it, but it was like, yeah, it's Mick G. I wish his name was MCG. I think I'd have more respect if he was a director named MCG. I just remember when he was doing the Terminator press once again,

he was like, you know, I make one mistake in my life. I register with the DGA as Mick G. And I'll never live it down. Introduce the show. Yes, this, of course, is Plane Check. It's a podcast about directors who are afraid to board a commercial airline. No, it's not. I'm goofing.

You're goofing. I'm goofing, spoofing. It's a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their career give a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear. And sometimes they bounce, baby. And then sometimes someone just doesn't make a movie for seven years yeah yeah seven years yes a full seven wow and then comes back and is like cool i'm only doing 100 million dollar movies now

right right even though i've never made a hit right yeah I did make, I guess, what's it called? Miami Vice. Miami Vice. Right. Right. But he's a weird guy. I mean, it's like we've covered James Earl Brooks on this podcast. It was another guy who got his check from doing TV. Yeah. But it was like he had to really fight from going from TV to film. And then it

was like, no return. And... The man makes three movies and he's like, alright, I going to go back and make some more TV. Yeah. I'm going to make Crime Story. Right. I'm all in on Farina. Farina's my guy.

Who wouldn't be so fucking ugly? You should explain it. I told this, of course, our guest today, Eric and Chris from We Hate Movies. We've completed the collection. Hello. Yes, now we are owned by Blank Check. Yeah, that's unfortunately how it works.

We don't tell anyone. Leverage buyout. We're going to be under the desk for the remainder of at least Michael Mann. Well, you're the fatalist. I'm looking for a good shelf. I'm hoping a good shelf for me. I think top shelf for you.

I'm going to compliment you today, Chris. I don't do it often on our show. We're going to make We Hate Movies our sort of black label. Ooh. You know? Our luxury brand. Go on.

This is your bit. I can't go any further with that. Okay, fine. I thought you had more. You're good at the like steelbook talk, like all this sort of like variant edition talk. Black series. Black series. Ooh.

Ooh. What was that? Oh, no. Signature, right? Is that the new? Signature. Signature. That's the new Disney. Ooh. Ooh. What was that? Oh, no, Signature, right? Is that the new? Signature. That's the new Disney. Right.

Because they went through all the gold, platinum. Then they went to diamond. Right. So now we're back to just like ink on paper? It's just Walt's Signature. And they'll be like, it's the Lion King Signature Edition. And like after he was 30 years dead, that's Signature Edition. They made a movie about lions?

What are you talking about? Lions don't talk. Why does Walt Disney talk like this? They took his frozen hand out of the cryo chamber and then just had it sign. Is it his whole body or is it just his head?

I think there's been conflicting reports. I thought it was the head. I think the popular belief is it's just the head. I hope it's... Like a Terminator army with it. That'd be great. Get that head out of here.

And then Michael Eisner's deal was like, you add my head when I die. We create a Disney CEO Frankenstein. Walt Disney, famously rockin' bod. That guy was caught. The man was our thinspiration.

Oh boy. Has anyone ever suggested before that maybe Walt was Zaddy? Can I propose that perhaps? As someone who barely knows what Zaddy is, sure. Murder me Walt. Walt Disney push me. Walt Disney push me. I like push me.

I like how innocuous. It's Becca Boulness. Just blank name push me. Walt Disney. All right. Come on. I like push me. I like how innocuous. It's Becca Boulness. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Full respect. Just blank name push me. Because Nicholas Holt pushes Emma Stone in The Favorite. Which is certainly very hot.

It is. It's pretty hot. It's very hot. Is there a push? It's a good push. Is there a difference between daddy and daddy or is it just more intense? It's just this thing where like the second the lame people on the internet start co-opting the cool lingo, we have to pervert this

further. Change like three words and make it oblique so that people can't use it for another four months. Like we gotta stay ahead of them somehow. And if it's on blank check, that means it's time to change it again, I would say. Like someone just heard that we used the word zaddy and they're like, alright, alright, wrap it up. We're gonna find some new word. With that,

I wanna make an official announcement that I've been holding on to for a little while. I'm officially adding On Fleek to my blank check repertoire. It's just gotten rotten enough. That's putrid rotten. That's actually a good idea. That's my thing. That's like five years old.

I wait for that point. Language is cyclical. That's why most people speak old English. And On Fleek was an experiment for me of like, how long can I age this whiskey in the barrel? Well, now you're going to see, like Twitter, it's going to be on sleek or something like that.

Right, and I will wait five years to start using that. The second thing has like... You let it ferment on the shelf, you go to the top shelf, you pull down on fleek, and what are the other youthful expressions of a bike on air? Cool use it then journalism twitter uses it then like parents and comedy people start using it ironically then people start ironically using people using it ironically right

then i wait five months then you're in then i use it and you become a new new cool person yes to then kick it all off right that's my movement it's a new cool person. Yes. To then kick it all off. Right. That's my movement. It's the new cool. What's our miniseries called? I'm sorry that I keep... Yes. No, of course. I'm not into new cool. I'm more of a cool Coca-Cola guy.

Yeah. The classic. New Zool. What? New Zool? You got an L and Z onto it. Clear Z. Go see.

Ghostbusters 3. I was about to say, is that like Bill Maher? No one's cooler than Zool he got a Z onto it clear we'll see Ghostbusters 3 I was about to say is that like Bill Maher like talking to the Ghostbusters he's like New Zool I don't know

right alright thank you New Zool if you're gonna have a flat top you better be wearing a onesie with weird

sculptural bubbles all over it good good New Zool if you got two dog sculptures wearing a onesie with weird sculptural bubbles all over it. Good. Good. New Zool, if you got two dog sculptures, you better make them come to life. Keep going.

Whatever. I don't know. What else can I do with New Zool? You can introduce the podcast miniseries. Thank you. The podcast miniseries is called The Cast of the Mohicans. No, The Cast of the Podhecans. Oh,icans. No, The Cast of the Podhecans. Oh, fuck. It's called Cast of the Podhecans, a.k.a. Michael Mansplaining.

Which is the only name we could think of. Right. The only one. He's got a lot of very short titles. You didn't think of the Podsider? I mean, we like to have cast. We like to get both of them in there. Right.

Maybe we should drop that. I don't know. It's fun that we keep doing it. It's fun that we keep doing it. It's very laborious. It's fun that we the doing it. It's fun that we keep doing it. It's very laborious. It's fun that we the keep doing it. Yeah, the keep board game arrived today. We just got the keep board game. Very slender volume. I like that.

It's a nice tight little box. You know how board games these days are these like giant boxes? These kids and their board games. Like a sleek slender board game. Well, that's going to come back in style soon enough, right? The sleek ones. Right, exactly. On sleek. On sleek.

That was a photo fan. That was, right. These board zames are on sleek. Yeah, these board zames. I'm a zamer. Are you guys zamers? I don't know what you're talking about. You know exactly what I'm talking about. We now have acquired both the Keep board game and the Keep Dungeons and Dragons

role-playing book. Right, and we're wondering what our next steps are going to be, but there will be next steps. There will be next steps. Probably rent out Madison Square Garden. Yeah. See if we can fill it. Sure. Not the Hulu Theater. With what?

Fuck that. With, you know, our list. Garbage. Fish heads. Packed snow. I don't know some tightly packed snow Godzilla eggs

they're in there they're somewhere that's an event I really wish I was at Godzilla? I wish I was in Godzilla specifically 98 have you guys read about the Godzilla Madison Square Garden premiere that was apparently

the best premiere of all time? No. Everyone walked out of it and they were like, it's the best blockbuster of the last 20 years. That's like the height of Hollywood's Gilded Age where they're like, we're going to make movies like this forever. They'll never blow up in our faces.

Right. And it was like jam-packed Madison Square Garden playing Godzilla. That is quite a place to premiere a movie. That's crazy. And the third act is them breaking into mass and square garden going through the eggs and the audience was cheering and they had like giant like like fucking 15 foot inflatable beach balls and they were like it was like coachella for godzilla right and everyone came out of it and was like they've done it it's not since spielberg and then everyone so i was like, they've done it. It's not since Spielberg. And then everyone saw it and was like, what's this piece of shit?

Broderick's your lead? A bunch of critics had to be like, I saw it again. I redacted my previous review. Look, they were Godzilla bitch balls. What did you want me to do? I was reviewing the experience. People were cheering. Wow, the New York Times has an article.

Oh no, the LA Times. It was like a huge, it was like the peak Hollywood movie premiere. 13,000 people went to this premiere. Yeah. They all loved it. In this movie, this was the one that had the Mayor Ebert.

So they're like, they're She-Ra critics. They're called Siskel and Ebert. And his aide, yeah. It's Michael Lerner plays Ebert. And he can't stop eating M&Ms. It is the most basic fat guy evil critic joke. And when Siskel quits, he goes like, I give you two thumbs down.

And Ebert reviewed it. He was like, I thought that was kind of funny. He was not affected by it. The best evil critic joke was in They Live, the John Carpenter film, where they have Ebert and Siskel as aliens in the TV. Oh, yes. That's a nice little... That's enough. You don't need to name a character after it.

I also think the nicer one is, like, Leonard Maltin slams gremlins. And Joe Dante's like, cool, I wrote an under five for you. You're playing Leonard Maltin and you get eaten by gremlins. But he let him do it. He was like, sign me up. It's lighthearted. Manhunter. Manhunter.

We're talking about the film. A film very similar to Gremlins 2. Yeah, kind of. I think so. Or is Red Dragon, no, yeah. This is the first Lecter movie. It's not a sequel. Did you guys watch the show?

Yeah. Cannibal? Yeah. I love that show. It's yeah i love that it's the best show it's great it is the best show if i feel like the show kind of does the story better maybe i don't know it's right dragon better i disagree you disagree this specific story better i don't know it does a very weird twist because i mean it clearly isn't the same like thing but i actually i mean they're just so two different beasts to me. They're very different.

Yeah, but I like that you get to see Hannibal with Will. Well, but that's the thing. They had two seasons, and then in the third season, they did Red Dragon. Right, right. And it was Richard Armitage. Yeah, and it's okay. And it's not even the full season. It's like half of a season. The second half

of the third season. I'm gonna wait for Xanibal to come in. Maybe it was just at that point when he shows up and he's got a dragon tattooed on him and he's got a cleft palate. And you're like, I've seen this. It's okay. It is weird that there are specifically three adaptations of Red Dragon. A book in which Hannibal is a peripheral character. that there are specifically three adaptations of Red Dragon, which on its own isn't like... A book in which Hannibal

is a peripheral character. Right, and it's not like the book is like such a fucking... It's a good book. Yeah, but it's not like one of the canonical crime texts, you know? I would say it is

one of the canonical crime texts. You really think so? Yes. It kind of invented the idea of like a profiler as a thing. It was like one of those first big airport novels I remember when I was a kid. Like my parents read the idea of like a profiler as like a thing. It was like one of those first big airport novels I remember when I was a

kid. Like my parents read the shit of it and then when I was old enough it was like, oh I'm gonna watch this. I'm gonna read this. David Foster Wallace is like, before he died was very much like Thomas Harris is the greatest American novelist alive. I mean I think that's a cool take. And Silence of the Lambs are like two of my favorite books. It also feels like

and correct me if I'm wrong, but this feels like, oh, he was one of the first guys to deal with how fucking upsetting crime is. Exactly. And like the actual sort of like. He was the first guy? That's his whole thing. Before then, everyone was like, crime's great. I love it when, no, I think you're right. No, but grotesquery.

Emotional tax of. Crime horror maybe is what i would say you know like rather than like yeah i'm sticking you up you see you know would be funny if hannibal said that and i feel like serial killer movies were more just like did they even exist i guess halloween like you know there was a little of that but it was like dirty harry where it's like he's like trying to share the headship right but but like is a movie where it's like, what the fuck is this guy doing? Like where they're just like casually at minute 15. They're like, so is he fucking the bodies or not?

You know, like that feels like I have to imagine kind of New Frontier in 1985. Well, it's also like professionals have to deal with these people. Right. Right. And it's like a whole job like within the FBI. Like there are people who are like, yeah, I have to figure out why the crazy people behave that way.

Okay, so to zoom out and talk about the weirdness of the Hannibal franchise, the thread I started 45 minutes ago on this podcast, it's weird that these two both get the thing of,

oh, the most disturbing and upsetting thing you can do. By these two, I mean Manhunter and Silence of the Lambs. The first two adaptations of Thomas Harris

are like, the most upsetting thing you can do is make this feel really banal like not shoot this like a horror movie not like gussy it up sure and just have like people in like shitty fucking fluorescent lit uh offices talking about these horrible fucking acts in like suits and ties right right like oh fuck these these people just have to live in this on a day-to-day basis offices talking about these horrible fucking acts. In like suits and ties. Right, right. Like, oh fuck, these people just have to live in this on a day-to-day basis. Right. And Will Graham in this is this amazing performance of just like

a guy who's just finally breaking from having to live in this world and think about this shit too much. He broke. Right. Right. He's broken. Right. He is broken. Yes. Right. And yeah. Right. And then the rest of the movies after this including like when ratner wants to do his fucking like watch me i can make a serious movie they become like very sort of like ominous and dark yeah and they're like and gothic graphic

right and then hannibal goes in its own direction hannibal is like it's just psychedelic right like it's like let's take it all the way. This should be like porn. Yeah. But in a great way. I don't know. You like him. You're with me. I will say about what Ben was talking about, like, I feel like the last season of Hannibal did something good where it visually was much more, like,

visceral. Like, you got that rush of what those kind of people must feel in those moments. 100%. Whereas this, they are, like like a little bit more distance. I mean, that's my man's thing, but like. Yeah. The like red dragon element in the show is just so much more explored.

And it's like, I love, what's the poets? William Blake. What is the deal with killers and William Blake, right? The Salinger thing. Like it's weird that like certain writers just seem to activate people without their work being violent.

William Blake, though, is just a freak. He's just a straight-up freak. Especially for the time, right? He died like 500 years ago. No, but he was such a weirdo. He would freak. He would make his own illustrations. He would wrote all this poetry and he did it all on his own.

He was on fleek. He was an on fleek freak. William Blake, I mean, he was zaddy. He was zaddy. William Blake was one of the original zaddies.

He was a zaddy, but I mean, the Red Dragon portraits, I think they were like commissioned or something. yeah, well, he was,

Blake is one of those guys who like did all this shit, died, and then afterwards people were like, do you know that he did all this shit? Like no one knew who he was when he was alive yeah he was just a maniac he died

like just like vincent van gogh why aren't people killing in the name of vincent van gogh that would be like how they did like a negra allen post serial killer thing they should do a vincent exactly i mean it's really where it's like someone's in a field of sunflowers. Yes. And the guy's like, hmm. No, a Pollock one. Everyone's all drippy. That's kind of every murder. It's just the expulsion of bodily fluid. I got one here. And only because we're recording this in advance do I feel comfortable saying this on the mic.

Because I will have already sold this to Disney Plus by the time this episode comes out. Picasso murders. Yes, the Picasso murders. He rearranges. Oh, I love it. Jigsaws you up. Yeah. Cubist. Yes, the Picasso murders. He rearranges. Oh, I love it. Jigsaws you up. Yeah. Cubist. And he takes different bodies.

We can't ID this. It's one guy's teeth, another guy's eyes, but they're in the butt. Look at where this guy's arm is. Look at his butt. Leave him with this guy's arm. He's kind of like

the Joker of painters. He kind of is like the Joker of painters. I've been doing a lot of guests on other people's podcasts recently. And I went on your guys' show. And that was like early in this run of doing it. And I realized I don't think there was one of them where the Joker didn't come up.

And it wasn't me forcing it. No, no, not at all. I mean, the Joker is just ever present in society these days. He's ever present. It would come up in one way or another every single podcast I've done. And then would you ride into the ground? Oh, are you kidding me? You gotta.

The Joker? Yeah, that's what the Joker would do. He's the clown prince of crime. He's the clown prince of crime. You were on our episode on Pet Sematary, the 1989 version. And it was the Joker of episodes. It was. It was very funny.

Someone is going to 100% make this movie as a Joker movie sometime. Like, that's going to happen 20 years from now. We're doing a Batman movie where he's like, we're really doing the detective thing, and Joker's going to be in jail, and he's going to have to talk to Joker to figure out what's going on with Hush, or name a Batman villain who's a serial killer.

I was going to say it was Mistress's ass. I was going to say it would just be Gordon without Batman, but then that's also, like, that's what Gotham was. Gotham the show. Right, right. Yes, it does feel like that will happen. Someone will have that pitch. I'm ready for Bye Bye Birdie with Joker.

That's the one I want. I want a musical about some young girls who can't get enough of that Joker. Love that Joker. Wish I didn't care. A Joker musical is doable. That's not a bad idea. That's great.

It's coming already. I mean, he wears suits. Here's what I think the musical should be. But he's kind of funny, too. Yeah. We haven't mentioned Prince of Musicals.

He's pretty funny. Here's a pitch that actually is probably worth $20 million. The musical is Joker taking over someone else's musical. So the marquee is like

Kiss Me Kate and then it's like scribbled out and it's like ha ha ha Joker musical. And you go and it's like a set and everything's like proper and then the Joker comes in and just like fucking chaos. And it's meta and like the performers are playing they're playing this performance but they're playing this performance but

they're playing themselves as the actors playing that performance he's holding the company of a broadway musical hostage to act out his musical it's like a staged reading i can't believe you're a billionaire after selling all these pitches right yeah god damn it and it was it was put on by wayne enterprise it was it's put on by wayne enterprise that's why right that's why he did it yeah exactly and then at the end he gasses the entire audience yes right right uh not a lot of Wayne Enterprises. It's put on by Wayne Enterprises. That's why. Right. That's why he did it. Yeah, exactly. And then at the end he gasses the entire audience. Yes.

Right. Not a lot of repeat customers. I just imagine Warner Brothers hearing that and being like, we can't make this right now because I don't know if you know this

but we have a Joker movie but we are going to pay you just in case because we never know we might need another Joker movie next year. We do have Joker on ice. That's even too twisted

alright I'm gonna put no more Joker talk so this movie 1985 Sansa Lambs is 90 or 91 91 isn't it yeah at that point you're just like well this is like someone else adapting another one of this author's works

and his books are interconnected it could have just felt like fucking out of sight and Jackie Brown both having Ray Nicolette, except as two different actors in this case. Like, they're not, you know, movies that are linked. And then everyone's like, oh, fuck. Hannibal's a franchise. For 11 years, everyone's like, or 10 years,

they're like, are they ever going to get Anthony Hopkins to come back? Is Thomas Harrison ever going to write another thing it's one of the great unmade sequels which you and I were talking about this last night

it's crazy that people were like oh fuck it's the one we've all been waiting for and you're like you watch Shots of Lambs now and you're like people wanted another one

it doesn't need a sequel it's just a good joke at the end right it does the thing I think the horror movie thing like cause you watch

Shots of Lambs you watch Shots of Lambs. You watch Shots of Lambs. It's not really a horror. I mean, there's horror elements, but that's not what I think about with that movie. It's a crime, thriller, horror sort of thing. But it took that thing of Halloween and all those where the villain is what keeps the thing going. Right, and then they just made him this larger-than-life boogeyman. This shadow over humanity.

And then they finally get him on and he does two fucking sequels rapidly. Within like three years. One which is super violent and one which is kind of like going for a way classier vibe. Hannibal is just like the grossest shit in the world. And then Red Dragon is

like, no, no, no, wait a second. He's all so classy. It is crazy. Lots of big actors. I have not seen Red Dragon. Red Dragon has such an all-star cast. I have not seen Red Dragon. I was looking it up last night because I was trying to remember who played what part. It is crazy how

stacked that cast is. And you just wonder what all those people felt like being directed by Brett Ratner. Right. No, I mean, Philip Seymour Hoffman is Freddie Lowndes in that movie. Which is what?

Like a five minute part? Yeah, Mary Louise Parker is Molly. She's the blind Will's wife. The wife, right. Who's the blind lady?

Emily Watson. Emily Watson. Right, yeah. But you know, Fiennes is good. Fiennes is the thing that's really good about Red Dragon.

I love Tom Noonan and I love him in Manhunter. Yeah. It's a very specific and very cool performance. And I think there's even more is good. Fiennes is the thing that's really good about Red Dragon. I love Tom Noonan and I love him in Manhunter. Yeah. It's a very specific and very cool performance. And I think there's even more William Blake talk in Red Dragon.

Well, the Red Dragon is heavy on the William Blake. He eats the painting. Yes. Which is something he does in the book. Cool.

He goes to the Brooklyn Museum, which is where it is, gets it out of the archive and eats it. Well, we could do that today, right?

We could do that. 100%. That's Patreon content. So does Red Dragon have more Hannibal in it, or do they just... Yes, it shoehorns Hannibal in wherever it can. It also shows you Hannibal attacking Will Graham to try and get a little more of that in there. I think that's what happens at the very beginning.

It's the prologue. It's where Will Graham's like, I just wanted to meet with you because you're a psychiatrist, and Hannibal's like, yes, of course. Like, let's come into my office. So like more screen time than Silence of the Lambs, less than Hannibal.

Yeah. He's like a co-lead. Yeah. I mean, Norton Hannibal. There's the lead. Right, right. I mean, but Hannibal, it's just all him. Hannibal is all him.

Julianne Moore, I mean, she's doing her best, but I don't think they really knew what to do with the character in that sense. And they're like, I don't know they really knew what to do with the character and they're like I don't know do people want to see them get together the thing is

he ate their liver he ate their liver with fava beans and a nice can and a nice can I'm having an old friend for dinner yeah

yeah he eats people that's his bit he eats people it's a good bit have I ever told opinions vary I love the way they show him preparing the the victims on the tv show oh yeah of course i mean that's the one thing that they really network should take notes yes

exactly a lot of cuts off slow motions i love all that stuff right well there's one hannibal property i don't think we've mentioned yet at all and i've never seen it and I'd be surprised if anyone has is Hannibal Rising. Yes. You see it? You see it? No. Thank you. Yeah, it's like a young sexy coming of age, young buck Hannibal. A French dreamboat. Gaspar UL who is mostly

now known for doing like Dior ads. Sure, he's an actor though. He does like, yeah but I'm saying in terms of visibility. He's a hottie. He's a super hottie. He does a does a lot of like uh chanel right ads i think he played uh yves saint laurent in like the biopic right of saint laurent like right he was in very long engagement the jeunet film which is sort of his breakout thing but it was very odd that they were like and now finally we found the person to take the mantle from anthony hopkins this fucking guy

you've never heard of yeah Yeah, French print model. Right, and it's going to be directed by who? Who directed it? Nobody. Nobody has no credit to Jeff. Wow. No, no. Peter Weber.

That was the wrong take. They should have done old Hannibal. Yeah. Well, the other insane thing. They could still do that. Anthony Hopkins is alive. He's like, let me at you.

So he just sort of walks away from it. They need to blend the bodies up and feed it to him like baby food. Because his teeth fell out. And you're telling me

this is liver. And they're like, yeah, sure, it's liver. I want to see the unforgiving Dark Knight returns Hannibal where he's like, I'm coming out of retirement

for one last meal I gotta eat one more person Hopkins could do it he could totally do it he'll dial in if he wants to he seems like he's having fun on Twitter and that's it I think that's all he wants to do his Twitter account is fucking bananas

this is him and Sam Neill just having the time of their lives on Twitter just being like hello chaps chaps. How you doing? I'm here looking at the window. See you later. You know, it's like a lot of that. That's his day. I know.

How great is that? He like plays the piano. He listens to jazz music and like wilds out. Gives like a happy birthday announcement to somebody you've never heard of. Right. We were talking about this last night, but Hannibal Rising, that is what's called Hannibal Rising. That's correct.

My local bagel place in high school, I remember I was buying my daily bagel for lunch, and the woman just said to me, like, you see a Hannibal Rising yet? She said it to you? And she wasn't like a small talk person. Was she very old? Because maybe she was talking about the original Hannibal.

Have you seen him rising over the Alps? Did you see the elephant? Did you see it? It's humongous. She was wearing centurion armor. You know who the villain in Hannibal Rising is? It's not Carthage. It's Rome, right?

Oh, wait. Wrong one. Sorry. Gong Li. Isn't it Gong Li? Gong Li? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She teaches him. I don't know if she's a villain.

She's not the villain. She's like Hannibal. Wait, did you see it? Yeah, I saw it. Oh my God. You saw it, okay. I thought earlier no one had seen it. No, you were flexing that you were the only person who had seen it.

Okay, all right. What I was going to say is that that movie, well, she said, have you seen it? I said, no. And she went, it's pretty good. And then she sort of like leaned in and she was like, they explain where he gets the mask from. Wait, what? I mean, isn't that just. As we were saying.

He's a bitey guy. That's where he gets the mask. Because he's in prison. And he's a biter. Let's not. He's a biter. He gets it in high school now. In Hannibal Rising, they're like, his father had a mask collection, and he starts wearing the mask when he's attacking people.

It's too much. So that's why later in life he wore the mask. It's like, no, because he was... They put it on him. He takes it off to fight people. Anyway. I was kind of hoping in Hannibal Rising that they were going to do something more like Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse, where he tries on the different masks. I'll do it this way this time.

This way this time. I don't like Chardonnay. Do you have anything else on the menu? Anything red? He puts on a mask and it's smoking? I just love that they treat that like fucking Bruce Wayne, like being scared of the bats. It's all they had.

They had cast a French supermodel. They needed to put the mask on him. He is predominantly a pretty boy. He's not someone... He was from the director of Girl with a Pearl Earring. So fucking weird. It was his follow-up to Girl with a Pearl Earring. They saw Girl with a Pearl Earring

and they were like, this guy gets Hannibal. He'll do it. Is Hannibal also a franchise where every one of the movies is a different studio? Hannibal Rising was, let's find out. Weinstein. The Weinstein Company. Right?

Red Dragon was... Universal. He's beating me to it. He knows the fucking studio. Was Hannibal Universal or was that... I feel like that was... Paramount? It sounds like Paramount.

It feels like Paramount. Are we just saying names of places mgm because they had acquired orion which did silence is orion and of course manhunter the film we're here to discuss yes was deg was the de laurentis right they released it themselves right so they're all different studios all different studios because i was talking about how hellboy three different three movies three studios they. They just throw that to someone and they like ball it up and they're like,

you try. Is there any other example of that? And it's like, this is the other one. Yeah, wow. Hannibal and Hellboy. Hanniboy. We gotta get these two together.

We gotta. Hannibal. Hannibal. Imagine the things they get up to. They would get up to some shit. Or Hellboy on like the, on the trail of Hannibal, maybe, right?

Something like that. I'm surprised they haven't started doing Hannibal mashup comics. Like Hannibal versus Predator or whatever? I would totally buy that. Of course. Right. Because they're all those Bubba Hotep

versus Army of Darkness versus Chucky. Fuck off. We should do these franchise mashups. I've been saying this for a while, but not in the Ready Player One sense, but in just like, you just have Hannibal and... A clean two. And the Joker hanging out or whatever. I mean, Hannibal does seem like somebody who would be like hunting for a magic pyramid

that turns him into a god with the Illuminati. See? Yes. So like, I feel like that's what I'm into. So then Lara Croft could chase him down. Batman would do it. Just a nice clean pitch like that. So like, I feel like that's what I meant to say. So then Lara Croft could chase him down. Batman would do it. Just a nice clean pitch like that.

That's obvious. There's this pyramid in the studio that's like 80 million. It's magic. It's really adorable. It's one of the classic stories that we pass down

from generation to generation. How about this? Old Hannibal, we're going to bring it all back together. Old Hannibal is looking for the found of youth left by Ponce de Leon and then he comes out present day as French model.

What if there's like lightning strikes the pool. So you get all the Hannibals together. So you get, it's like the doctor who's where the doctors meet each other. You've got Cox Hoskins, it's like Terminator 2 and Mickelson. When they're melting T-1000 and you see all the different people he was

you get to see all the different animals and they each have a different mask yes they open a restaurant together we have to talk about

Manhunter but it is it just is crazy that they did a TV show yeah everyone knows Hopkins yeah everyone likes Hopkins

yeah this guy does the opposite like a performance that's just nothing like that it is about as different as you could go in terms of casting and people right exactly people are not only like we performance that's just nothing like that and it's about as different as you could go in terms of casting

and people right exactly and people are not only like we love this but they're like I'm horny for it like I want him to kiss Henry Cavill

he was kind of a hot Hannibal who fucks he's hot Hannibal who fucks but then also is like I'll make a cello out of a man's vocal chords and you're like he

what? this is network? like yeah I'm not gonna tell you how many conversations I've had with my wife where she's like I would fuck Hannibal he's hot They're like, what? This is network? I'm not going to tell you how many conversations I've had with my wife where she's like, I would fuck Hannibal. He's hot. TV Hannibal. He's hot.

He's really hot. He's classy. He does not like people who are garish. Usually his motive for murder is that someone was rude. You like his rules. You like his rules. He's certainly a rules guy. David loves rules. He's also an exquisite chef i mean i'm sorry david's a good chef yeah he sees and they're you know jack crawford's always

like what is it tonight and hannibal's like uh spleen um cow spleen and he's like i always have the most you know delicious variety oh i can never predict you and he's like uh-huh a little uh human chicken chicken livers is what we're having very big chicken i guess an entire roasted human being that's just a chicken yeah what if he did that yeah he's literally just a man and he's like yeah this is veal yeah it's definitely veal that's what this is just on a rotisserie it's it's italian veal it's different over there you just don't know it right jack cropper it's like oh what a gourmet he is i don't know this fancy european cooking yeah that's just a paprika i just put

some paprika on it the other thing that it nails which hopkins and cox nail too it's like that you get that like hannibal got away with it by being so classy. Yeah. They were like Hannibal couldn't be murdering people. Cox is so good in this movie. Yes, he is. I know that's the Hopkins take is like actually he's even better than Hopkins and Hopkins is just at this level where it's just like kind of an inarguable

like force of a character. He almost breaks through the movie whereas Cox is very much in the movie. He's in the movie. He's blended with the whole thing. You're right. He almost breaks through the movie whereas Cox is very much in the movie. He's in the movie. He's blended with the whole thing. You're right. He almost breaks through. I thought it was like Last Action Hero

and he's going to come out and bite me. Speaking of Last Action Hero Tom Noonan is fucking fantastic in that too. Yes he is. I love that movie.

Tom Noonan had like quite an incredible seven year run there. He is a weird career. Right. But you go like Manhunter playing Frankenstein

in the Monster Squad. I mean, the Ripper, is that his character name? Yeah. But it's like, look at him. You know,

like, it's limited what you can do with that guy. Have you guys ever seen, it was like as part of the EPK, but it's on like the Blu-ray or whatever

of Monster Squad that he did a full interview in character as Frankenstein. Really? Yeah. I did not see this. There's like 20 minutes of EPK of Tom Nenon answering press questions as Frankenstein in the full getup. I was looking for someone to watch on YouTube on the way back.

So there we go. It's just great. No, he's like an articulate Frankenstein, but he's responding as if he is the character. And everyone's just like, Frankenstein couldn't do it. He's so articulate. Well, he started. He's too classy. He started with big directors, too.

His first movie is a Paul Mazursky movie. And then it just barreled from there. I think he almost always worked with big directors. That's true. From the beginning. That's really weird to have that kind of career. He's in Gloria. Yeah.

Yeah, he's in Gloria yeah yeah he's in some very he's in Easy Money I forget which role it is maybe it was Last Action Hero but they asked him to shave off his eyebrows

and they just he was like yeah they just never grew back cool worth it totally worth it I never looked scary before

it was like an AV club, like random roles, and they were like, oh, so you must regret that. And he's like, no, it's fine. I wear glasses. I was like, only Tom Noonan is that casual about looking like a monster. A weird eyebrow-less monster. He's so good in the House of the Devil.

He's so scary. And his other... Right, Anomalisa. He's fucking unbelievable. Yeah. He doesn't do a lot, though. No? No. He's selective these days. Yeah. right Anomalisa he's fucking unbelievable yeah he doesn't do a lot though no no

he's selective these days although he did like a bunch of episodes of 12 Monkeys like the TV show like that's the weird thing isn't he on your favorite show Hell on Wheels

oh my lord yes really yes and he's quite a character I know nothing about the show he's good at he better be playing

quite the character if he's gonna be on a TV show most of it's like he's a pacifist, like preacher. And then eventually he does succumb to violence. But then it's kind of the end for him. He doesn't last as long as our Bo Hannon. I almost said titular because I call the show Bo Hannon. But hell on wheels.

Is that Anson Mount? Yes. A guy who I never thought about for one second, and then he was on Star Trek, and I fell in love with him. Oh, really? I love him on Star Trek. You love him.

Seriously. I should check out Hell on Wheels. The first season, I think, is a little patchy, and then they course correct, but then it also goes off the rails because it's also bad in a lot of parts. Great pitch. But it's fun.

It starts bad, gets a little better, and then is often bad. You should check it out. It's fun. It starts bad, gets a little better, and then is often bad. You should check it out. It's on Netflix now. You have tons of time because there are no other TV shows. He also played someone called the Stewmaker on the Blacklist, which I want to know what that means. I'm looking at his list right now.

The other one I forgot is Robocop 2. But he has that run of an FX. He was great in Robocop 2, by the way. He's the best part of RoboCop 2. Yeah, Kane. What are you, shooting nuke? You don't remember that? Second RoboCop.

Heaven's Gate. Like, what a weird fucking career. Weird. Yeah. And he says he got the part in Manhunter because during his audition, the actress he was alongside got scared. And he leaned into it and tried to like scare her more yeah i mean the thing like got more frightening rather than being like oh i'm sorry is this too intense like yeah very scary in this yes and he's also uh really sad yes like there's

a bit of the like the jack girl hailing little children thing finds doesn't get everyone else just goes full crimes is very scary but he's not particularly human. This is like victim of society. Fiennes is also too handsome. He's a handsome guy, even though he can play scary, and he's got this sort of weird vibe in the cleft palate. And then Armitage they make even hotter. Armitage is pretty hot. Armitage is very hot.

That scene, the tiger scene in the show is just exhilarating. I mean, I love this one just because Joan Allen is incredible in that scene. But the TV version, there's those red drapes in the show yeah is just exiled i mean like i love this one just because joan allen is incredible in that scene yeah but like the tv version like there's those red drapes in the back of like holy okay they really went for it i guess so red drapes red drapes are the best so red dragon comes out 81 red drapes comes out the book okay the book which is uh thomas harris's i think second book because he wrote black sunday Sunday, that book about a terrorist attack at the Super Bowl that got turned into a movie. Yes. Right.

And he also wrote a couple of babysitter clubs, right? Didn't he? Yeah, he wrote a lot of Sesame Street board books. There's a monster in this book. As I think I told you, a quote that I love that Stephen King says that like Harris is like a really nice guy

he's a great chef which is interesting he's like big and kind of garrulous and fun but writing to him is like writhing

on the floor in agonies of frustration the very act of writing is a torment to him right he's one of those guys who's like

I'd be happy never writing a book ever again right and somehow hit the jackpot where he doesn't really have to except once in a while writing is a torment to him. Right. He's one of those guys who's like, I'd be happy never writing a book ever again. Right. And somehow hit the jackpot where. He doesn't really have to. Right. Except once in a while, the movie studio's like, can you just more Hannibal?

And he's like, okay, but it will be disgusting. Right. Right. Yeah. Like, that's all that's inside. And you said also, you feel like every time he agreed to do another Hannibal, it was mostly so that they didn't let someone else do it. Exactly.

Like, he knew if he turned it down. They'd be like, fine, we're going to farm this out. Right. Yeah. Right. But, like, I'm happy just living off my Hannibal millions. Sure. That must be a weird feeling to be like...

He has also not given an interview since 1976, which is amazing. That's great. How weird must it be to be like, I never have to work again because I wrote a snob who eats people. That's my meal ticket. Right's my mickey mouse i came up with this erudite cannibal right that must be the best feeling in the world yeah i think it's cool right the relationship yeah that he invented i feel like is a really cool idea i think that's the dynamic is the big thing. It's so good. It's so good that he's like this profiler

who's been fucked up. He's like a victim of this guy. Is working with him? I don't know. It's a good pitch. It's so good. You have to talk to the monster in the cage is a good pitch. That's why Hannibal Rising is the least interesting pitch because the thing you want is like Hannibal already in jail.

And like the good guys having to come to him and be like, I know you're the only person who understands this. The uneasy alliance of Hannibal knowing that he's the smartest criminologist in the world. In Hannibal Rising, we should have cut to Will Graham in high school. Totally. He was a Victorian or something. I guess he would even be younger. Maybe kindergarten.

Or Clarice. Like lambs screaming, right? You could have had like five-year-old Clarice. You want Hannibal Rising to be about a foreign exchange program.

Yes. Yes, that would be great. You want that same sort of American living. He hears Leonard Skinner for the first time, loves it for some reason.

You know, in Europe, Hannibal might be just be like, yeah, that's the killer. Yeah, we can spot him. But in Europe... It's him.

He's not classy there. He's just regular. Yes, exactly. But in America, it's like, oh, wow, he's got an accent. He could never do anything. But that's the thing about him is that, as you say, he's always played by a foreign actor who's doing kind of an accent.

Right. He's from Baltimore. Right. Like, that's where he was in, like, Baltimore High Society. Yeah. But he's doing kind of an accent. Right. He's from Baltimore. Right. Like, that's where he was in, like, Baltimore High Society. Yeah. But he's from Europe, I guess. Yes. And in Manhunter, and in the book, in Red Dragon,

Red Dragon is about a criminal psychologist who is trying to figure out what the Tooth Fairy is up to, and then Hannibal is, like, this peripheral character who is his, like, lingering trauma. Now, does De Laurentiis get the rights to the book because it's a hit and then Michael Mann comes on? Or does Michael Mann seek this out and convince De Laurentiis to buy it? Do you know? That is a great question.

Let me see if that's explained here. One thing that's funny is that it was going to be called Red Dragon. And De Laurentiis was like, Year of the Dragon just came out. So we're going to call it Manhunter. And Michael Mann was like, I hate that title. And he was like, too bad. And he was like, and people think it's like a Bruce Lee movie. Like, no dragon.

Get that out of here. I kind of love this title of Manhunter because you almost think like you see the title, that green font comes on the screen. You're like, you think it's like almost a killer. right it's that duality of it's actually a title yeah so no de laurentis bought the rights okay and he wanted david lynch to make it because he had just worked with him on dune an awful experience for both of them yes and maybe it was before dune was finished or come out or whatever and lyn Lynch read the story or whatever and was like, this is disgusting.

I have no interest. Like, no thank you. Imagine if he did it, though. It would be like, the food would look like chili or something for Hannibal. It's just Bob's Big Boy. There'd be like breathing walls in the Tooth Fairy's home or something like that.

Something like that would get... It is fun, right, to think any master taking the Hannibal story. It would do something completely different. The two hiring meetings, do you think Lynch was more revulsed by Red Dragon or Return of the Jedi? Right. He might have

had a more violent reaction to Return of the Jedi. Probably. Brian Cox also thought this movie was uh the title was bland and cheesy so no one likes the title yeah anyway i don't know how man gets hired i like the title man gets hired and he's like we're all gonna meet with like chicago cops which i feel like his man's pitch in every one of his early movies is like great let's make this script i have a bunch of chicago like hoageating cops for you to meet. But also, at this point in his career, he makes a real fucking Chicago guy crime movie, right? Which people love, but it doesn't make a ton of money.

Then he makes a horror movie that's like a nightmare. It gets ripped away from him. He disowns. So you have to imagine he's like, I don't want to go back to TV. Here, I'm going to adapt an airport novel. This is pre-sold, you know? Yeah, not going to do Carl Hiaas and that's not exactly my tone. Right.

So like this is more my speed. Right. And this is a book that's popular that I can use for all of my obsessions. Like this has all the stuff that he's interested in. And then you watch this movie and it opens with a beach. It opens with Dennis Farina and William Peterson. Oh, no, the other thing I was going to say that's interesting about it is he's got like no stars in this movie

like he hires Peterson after off of watching footage from but it hadn't come out yet right and Peterson at this point is just like

a Steppenwolf guy do you know that he also wanted to hire Friedkin to play Hannibal yes and he met with Friedkin and Friedkin was like that would be Friedkin crazy

right hey 10 comedy points Friedkin was That would be Friedkin crazy. Right. Hey, 10 comedy points. Friedkin was like, I'm not an actor. And Mann was like, you don't have to act. You are this guy. And Friedkin was like, I am this guy? Excuse me?

Fuck you. Get out of my office. Thus the historical Mann-Friedkin split. Just play yourself. Right. De Laurentiis wanted either Richard Gere Mel Gibson or Paul Newman shooting high and Michael Mann's like

I saw some footage of this future bomb like we should hire William Peterson would you also imagine he probably only saw it

because he was spending time with Friedkin trying to convince him come on come on Willie you'll love it this guy

he ate someone right so they get Peterson which I guess is maybe in their mind sort of like a smaller scale, like Sam Worthington booking all those movies before Avatar came out. Yeah, whatever. People were like, I guess maybe if Freed can pick them.

It's also the height of like Steppenwolf cool. Like all those Steppenwolf guys are emerging in the 80s. Right. Like Malkovich and Gary Sinise and all that. And Peterson is one of those guys who like really kind of like walks the walk and talks the talk in terms of like, no, I really just like theater more. I don't really want to act in movies and TV shows. I don't enjoy it.

And he's also, he goes right out of the gate. He's a leading man in both this and To Live and Die in L.A. And then vanishes. Goes away. His first film role, two lines as the bartender in Thief. Then four years later, he does To Live and Die in L.A. And then does this the following year and then plays Ted Kennedy

in The Contender right there was the list I saw I forgot about that he's good in that and he's good he's very good Joan Allen again right

but there's a list of the shit that he turned down and they kept on saying I'm looking at his Wikipedia now he would turn down all these he turned down Platoon he turned down Goodfellas

what was he going to play in Goodfellas Henry Hill first choice glad he didn't do that and of course Ray Liana's brain eventually eaten by Hannibal

correct turned down the audition turned down the audition like Martin Scorsese called him and was like are you interested in

playing the lead role in my new film and he was like not interested hard pass right do Hamlet again right so after

Manhunter he does cousins the joel schumacher french film remake with ted danson right he does young guns too sure oh my god young guns too that was the hottest no it's terrible in uh in all everyone was baying for young guns too young guns too sorry chris but that features features Emilio Estevez as an old man talking to Bradley Winford in like the 1950s about being Billy the Kid. It is really the opening of it. But like, I think William Peterson just saw that he was going to play Pat Garrett. Like that was one name.

He's like, oh, that's a historical character. I know who that is. Right. You just look at this like, okay, Stone offers him Platoon. He's like, hard pass. I'm going to make an HBO TV movie about a minor league baseball player. Sounds good. Right.

Then Scorsese's like, good fellas, you want to play a lead? He's like, hard pass. I'm going to do a three-part Kennedys of Massachusetts ABC miniseries. I guess he's good at that sort of Kennedy vibe. He likes that. He does Return to Lonesome Dove. So his three biggest roles post-Maya Hunter, all TV movies or miniseries. Right.

And then by the time he starts doing movies again it's like small parts yeah like The Contender right she's like the seventh lead Mulholland Falls like Fear

right and then he just gets fucking CSI well he books CSI and CBS put that on Friday like they didn't think that was gonna be a hit they thought nothing of it and also at that point

it was like no movie stars went and did TV he was a guy who could have been a leading man, but kind of walked away from it. So they were like, well,

he's got the gravitas of a movie star, but he doesn't have any cachet to be able to turn this down. Right. Does 10 seasons is like the highest paid guy in drama. Hell yeah. And then just leaves. And then once again, just like fucking goes back to just doing Chicago plays.

I love it. Like, it's kind of incredible that the guy has that much integrity where he's like, I just really like doing plays in Chicago. He's also a guy in movies who knew his visual. He knew he was handsome. This and in To Live and Die in LA, that shirt's never fully buttoned.

The haunted handsomeness. But he knew he could only play crime scene guys. Yes. That's true. That's true. maybe that's why they thought of him for csi too right of course but also that i mean you mentioned that little league but do you know what that movie is about no please tell me there's a little league kid who is who's like i'm gonna quit baseball don't until uh nuclear disarmament happens

and then a major league baseball player is like he's right I'm gonna do it too and it's all about this national sensation and Peterson plays the player he's his father no he's so it's Superman 4

set amidst little league baseball amidst various baseball leagues wow that sounds good did man direct that was that a man too

the other thing that is interesting about Peterson, by all accounts, it sounds like this movie kind of broke him. Totally. He was like, I could not shake this character. He seems like a guy who does a lot of research and it is kind of incredible watching this movie where it's like, oh, he's not doing like any indicating at all.

It doesn't feel like he's consciously playing the trauma and the brokenness of this guy. It feels like he spent six months getting in the head. You imagine he spent six months just looking at crime scene photos. He talked to the guys who hunted Richard Ramirez. That was one of his big things. And they were like, I mean, you know, you're trying to

leave it at home. And I think I kind of did that. You know, they were sort of like up front with him about like, well, and all that shit. This is one of those performances where he's like never playing the trauma.

He just feels like he's dead inside the whole movie and you're like, this is like uncomfortable. Like he's like the guy on the subway where you're like,

I can't stop looking at this guy because I think he's on the verge of a nervous breakdown. I love his performance for exactly that. Right.

He's radiating some really uncomfortable energy. This guy is lost. He's gone. And his wife is so pretty and she's like, hey, what let's we're on the beach and he's like right and his conscious acting choice is let me just play a guy who's really good at his job right but he spent six months building a psychological profile of like total fucking despair right and i like that about the beginning because like it starts with him and farina it doesn't start with him and the wife yeah and like because it's like them sitting on like and farina's there in like a suit but also underlines the whole thing about like the fact that he he he cares

more about this stuff than he does this life and i like the and i mean there's a couple things in heat that bounce off of this but like that shot of of de niro contemplating the ocean men contemplating the ocean man number contemplating the ocean, man. Number one Michael Mann trope. Well, and also this man thing of like men who don't know how to do anything else. Yes. What's the line in the Heat Diner? Well, it's that where it's like Pacino's like, don't take scores.

And he's like, all I know how to do is take scores. Right, right. And Diane Venora, I think, says specifically, you hunt your prey. Right, right. And Diane Venora, I think, says specifically, you hunt your prey. Right, right. When she's yelling at him. I'm sorry the chicken got overcooked. Overcooked. No, but Will Graham's this dude

who had this very high-profile success. Give me what you got! And now he lives on the beach constantly playing beautiful electronic music with his lovely wife and child. And he is like, I can't do it you can't drag me back into it

but he also clearly isn't enjoying his life no like the guy it's like a guy who comes back from war and just can't ever go back

he's like Colin Farrell in Dumbo is what I'm saying great performance that I love yeah the other thing that's interesting though

is that Peterson met with anyone he could, tried to steep himself in all of it. Tom Noonan tried to research serial killers, thought it was gross. He was like, I can't. This is disgusting. And instead was...

There's some quote I found. Peterson just feels like he did too much research. It's too bad that podcast went around for Tom Noonan. It's like half the fucking industry. It's weird. I want to know more about serial killers, but I don't know where to turn. Yeah, no way.

It's so hard. No, he said, I wanted to feel like this guy is doing the best he could that he's doing it out of love. He decided to just play it like, you know, like he thinks this is the thing to do. Tom Noonan's also one of those guys who's like a very serious actor and he's like, I don't believe in like method stuff. You just like learn your lines and you like hit the marks

and you try to come up with interesting choices sure yeah sounds like acting to me and Peterson's like I'm gonna destroy my brain and my heart

forever there's only one way to get a thousand yard stare right yeah right um but yes

no the opening of the film is immediately so strange because you're like this feels like the idyllic like they're skipping past the paradiseyllic, like, they're skipping past the paradise. Yeah.

So just like the seduction now is like his boss being like, come on, come back. Hey, this is this guy, Tooth Fairy. No good. Yeah. He's got teeth. He's got teeth. Everyone's got teeth. This guy bites people with them. What the fuck? Which is my favorite bit when the guy's like, I don't want to hear any of you calling this guy the Tooth Fairy.

And they're like, so what's the new update on the Tooth Fairy, Kate? Like, everyone in the whole movie is like, eh, fucking Tooth Fairy. What was I going to say? Farina, obviously, is in Thief, is a real Chicago cop that man befriends.

Crime Story as well. He's going to do Crime Story after this, right, exactly. But now we know the Hannibal shit and all that. This movie's a little daring to just sort of start with, like, them having a conversation with, like, I know you're fucked up. Like, you know, like, to have all this backstory that is not really addressed. Right. This does not really address the backstory. No.

You know Hannibal, like, stabbed him. That's about it. Right. Right? Like, there's, like's like yeah and the stuff I mean when he's talking to his son I think is like the best they sort of explain it of just like this guy's so good at his job and he takes it so seriously that he tries to dig into their psychology and he maybe now can never get out of that right like he sees the world through those

eyes yeah he crossed the line he crossed the line. He crossed the line. And in the show, they talk about Will and Graham where they're like, he's a super empath. There's some word they have for him. And when he enters a crime scene, it turns into 3D and he can see ghosts and shit. They definitely TV-ified it.

Very much. They had to really go big. But what's good about it, in this, they do just say, Garrett Jacob Hobbs in passing and then the show turns into a major arc that's like the whole first thing

something Shrike fuck I forgot Baltimore Shrike or something like that Shrike? from Mortal Engine have you guys seen Mortal Engine? I have seen Mortal Engine you guys are gonna do Mortal Engine is there a band on the soundtrack to have seen Mortal Legends Shrike it's you guys are gonna do

Mortal Engines isn't there a band on the soundtrack to this that's like Shrike something Shriek on this yeah

I don't know anyway soundtrack's so good it's amazing we should say this soundtrack this movie in general

is very vaporwave highly it is pre vaporwave proto vaporwave yeah but is pre-vaporwave. Proto-vaporwave. But this is very much my aesthetic. I feel like movies should come back around to this.

You kind of are. You've got to build a mortal engine of vaporwave. Yes. If you were in Mortal Engines, yours would be like an incarnation, but vaporwave. Right. I haven't seen mortal engines and my understanding of it is there's like a there's a big robot and it's a fucking

showed up is that right it's big cities cities it's a city robot wheels motor cities and they and they battle each other it's got one of those things where like the opening thing is like as we all know after the fall the cities had to go on wheels and you're like, they had to? That was the move? Wheels? Do you remember like those like a micro machine play sets

where it would like look like a thing and then you'd open it up and there'd be like a bunch of different scenes and characters inside? Like the Technodrome. So the cities in Mortal Engines are like that

where they're like, oh fuck, someone's coming and then it like folds up and all the buildings compress I swear to god this movie rules so fucking hard I believe the first line basically is Hugo Weaving saying prepare to ingest

because the city is about to like eat a smaller city right because a bigger city is chasing a smaller city London is chasing like you know some market town he said that and I was waiting for that city to open up and big teeth actually started chopping down I was like oh that scene to open up and big teeth actually started chopping down. I was like, oh man, here we go.

But there is a bionic man named Shrike. There is a bionic man. He's like a clockwork man. Is Krang inside of him? No. No. Krang would have been a good addition. I think they were teasing Krang for this sequel.

They need Krang in this. I haven't seen it, but they need him. Shrike does kind of look like Krang's android body. He's got that sort of vibe. He's like a Krang in this. I haven't seen it, but they need him. Trank does kind of look like Krang's android body. Sure. He's got that sort of vibe. He's like a Krang-less. That's all he does. Yeah. There's also like a balloon, so he's a lot going on in Mortal Kombat. That's Stephen Lang, yes? I was

going to say. Stephen Lang, who you would not know that's Stephen Lang. No, I did not. Big glow up. Big glow up. Big glow up. By like his fifth scene, I went, who's this guy who kind of looks like... Was he just trapped in a gym for five years at one point? Is that part of his backstory?

We closed this gym with him inside it and we couldn't open it back up. So he's just like... His hair in this is like the Woody Harrelson Venom wig. 100%. It's like a fright wig. For a second, you're like, is this a woman? Like I don't mean that in an insulting way. He's got such a

sort of like dandy kind of presentation. And he's kind of pretty in this. Yeah, he's very pretty. And then he becomes like just like a beef jerky man. Right. Like he's still a very handsome guy but it's like, he's like all taut and sinewy and intense. Yeah. I say it's good. In this one, the first thing

I was like is, did they get something from Faka Seagulls in this? Like first thing I was like is did they get somebody from Flock of Seagulls in this like he really does look like he's the bassist like not the guy you know it's a very weird performance I didn't recognize him

until the credits honestly that's a lot of this cast it's not a big cast but it's all people who were starting big people now who are just starting

but Joe Nunes is nobody at this point it's her second movie Kim Greased who I think was also Steppenwolf? Yes, and she does Brazil

the year before. And Shud, don't forget Shud. And Shud, of course. And she had been in a Miami Vice. Okay.

What's Shud about? Cannibalistic, humanoid, underground dwellers. Ben's eyes just popped out of his head. Oh, I gotta see that.

It's one of those titles that kind of explains what the movie's about. It might have a vaporwave soundtrack. I can't say for sure. She's also in Throw Mama from the Train, which is all vaporwave. No, no, it's Mortal Engine, right? The train.

The cities are on wheels. They're on treads. They're not on tracks. Throw Mama from the Mortal Engines. That's going to be a movie one day. Can I throw something? Kim Grease is weird. Can I throw something even weirder?

Say what you want to say about what's weird of her career, and then I'm going to top it off with the ultimate weirdness. It's like throw them out from the train the next year, punchline in 88. She has some family movies. She has Houseguest. She has the two Homeward Bounds. She's in Houseguest and Homeward Bound.

She's in Why Me, homers bound she's in why me the um uh what's it called uh christopher lambert movie um but then it's like that's it then she just stopped making movies the end okay uh speaking of kim grist uh going completely off the grid uh when my mother was uh attempting to be an actress in the early 80s kim grist was part of her uh group of uh struggling actresses and then she was the one who made it but when I was born she apparently was like very good with me when I was a baby

she was like Kim Kim was my only friend who would like change diapers and so then my brother was born three years later Kim Grist was my brother's godmother. He has never met her. Wow.

So where'd she go? And it was one of those things, much like her career, where she just fucking disappeared. And my mom was like, I don't know what happened to her. She never showed up. They should do a podcast about this. Maybe one time when he was a baby. James has never spoken to her. She abandoned you.

She's been my brother. Okay. But wait, but so like, do do you think now like you could still invoke it like you know i mean you know obviously i'm joking but like if the newman family was lost at sea or whatever like could james be like kim grice godmother calling you in well james james is my brother just a bit of a wheeler dealer so he for a while would use it as like an honorific he could throw around to other people so every couple of years he'd anoint a new godmother. So he's like, my godmother, she's like, she's in absentia. So right, this title is hot.

It's ready. Like, yeah, who wants it? Because I was like first kid. I got my parents like high school friends. Right. I got their two best old friends. And my mom took a big swing on the, I called her Kim Violin when I was little. Kim Grease?

Yes. Okay. Because I liked rhyming. Is that why she left society? She stormed off in a huff. She moved to an engine city. I'm not a fucking violin. Get out of here. It is weird. She stopped acting and stopped godmothering right about the same time.

Well, she's good in this, I guess. She doesn't have a lot to do. Chud mother. Chud mother. That's what I'd call her. Maybe she went underground. Third build is Farina, who is, as far as i know still just like a salami man right like he's not like it's not like people are like farina's in this i'm there right like his first real dialogue role yes a hundred percent right right i like it when he pops into things it's great oh it's it's

he's when's he bad exactly i can't believe the Academy left him out of the I know that was great. To this day. Yeah. Getting Farina'd, man. There were a couple ones this year too that I thought were really There's always some weird ones.

Yeah, no Vern Troyer? Yeah. Arlie Ermey. I had money on that. How do you not put Arlie Ermey in your freaking Yeah. I wonder who that poor soul is

who has to decide where the producer's like you have two minutes. Yes. That's it. But I also feel like, why isn't that thing like six minutes long? Isn't that everyone's favorite part? It's sort of the part that feels the most kind of communal.

I feel that same way about when they give the honorary Oscars. You have to find the fucking stream to do it. I mean, make it its own show called Hollywood Funeral. And I would watch it. You don't have to show the shots of the caskets here. Burns or whatever they chose. Just do the memoriam. Show me clips.

In memoriam should have a commercial break. That's my pitch. We sort of fade down. So then you could have a commercial break. Right. That's my pick. We sort of fade down. So then you could have like a bunch of bookenders. Because obviously like the bookends are the hottest slots in the In Memoriam, right? Like Albert Finney I think was the end this year. Right. But this is what you could like.

You fade out. Albert Finney fade out. You have a series of Diet Coke commercials. And then you fade back in. There are places I remember. You just back in. Yeah. Yeah.

That'd be good. And Hunter. That'd roll. Okay. Verena. Verena. Okay. Probably one of the best st back in. Yeah. That'd be good. And Hunter. That'd roll. Okay, Farina. Probably one of the best stashes in the game. Amazing. So good. I can't think of really many other stash boys. I think if you tried to like shave it off, your razor would like chip as well. I feel like it's like painted on or something.

Right? Like, hey Farina, can you shave? And he's like, you can try. I've tried. Now I'm picturing trying to use a paint chipper. Right, yeah. And it just like snaps. And he's like, see? It's my curse. he's like you can try now i've tried now i'm picturing trying to use a paint chipper right yeah we like thing and it just like snaps and he's like see it's my curse he's like the hulk like he's like i tried to kill myself didn't work he comes on to get shorty there's three scissors in his mustache he's like i tried again i'm sorry i don't know what to tell you it can't be done his barber is hanging off of his mustache i haven't figured out how to shake him off yet.

Like Martin Scorsese called him. He's like, I want you to play Mr. No Mustache. And he's like, can't do it. Sorry. Oh, my God. That's making me think of Cesar Romero, who played the Joker and just painted over it. Right. That would be good if Farina in one movie had just painted over it.

You know me. A 12-year-old boy with no mustache. I wish Farina had done like a Clifford-style movie. Oh, my God. Like a comedy where Farina just played a child. I think Clifford is great. Hey, Dad, come on. You got to bring me my baseball game.

Clifford is an all-time classic. Clifford's one of Ben's favorite movies. So Farina gets... I want to say Mason. Jack Crawford. Yes. That's the other thing I love about the Hannibal franchise is that different actors have played all of the supportingford. Yes. That's the other thing I love about the Hannibal franchise

is that different actors have played all of the supporting characters. Right. So like Jack Crawford was Scott Glenn. Farina. Harvey Keitel.

Harvey Keitel and then Lawrence Fishburne. Yeah. They keep switching it up. That's a pretty great crew. It's a good crew. Yeah. Wait, did someone play him

in Hannibal? He might not be in Hannibal, Jack Crawford. Isn't Jack Crawford Lawrence Fishburne? No, no. In Hannibal or he might not be in Hannibal Jack Crawford isn't Jack Crawford Lord Fishburne no no in Hannibal the movies I'm sorry this is

confusing isn't Ray Liotta no Ray Liotta is Paul Crandler Paul Crandler who's the like the one guy with the up and comer

Paul Crandler from Justice exactly and other people have played like he's in silence for like one scene that's the one scene when it's after

Corman is the one guy, and then, like, Paul Crumman from Justice. Yeah. And then, of course, Ray Liotta's brain gets eaten. And the last scene of Hannibal is Hannibal feeding more brain to a child on an airplane. We were saying how crazy it was that, like, the rumor mill pre-Hannibal was, like, crazy.

Like, people were so in for that movie, and the rumor mill was like fucking Avengers Endgame. But all the leaks would sound like jackass stunts. Where they'd be like, the rumor is there's a guy without eyelids. And people would be like, no. And they'd be like, the rumor is someone eats his own brain. They were all just like, you won't believe how fucking nuts this movie is. And then, as I said to you last night, you read the book and you're like, they toned the book down.

Yeah. The movie is subtle compared to the book. Yeah. In the book, Clarice eats the brain too and she's like, mmm,

good. I remember reading because it was a huge deal when the book came out. because it was Thomas Harris. Right. And it'd been like 10 years. And then the whole scene

with the Italian detective. Yep. Like, that's super, way gorier than they are in the movie. Who is disemboweled on screen in the movie, to be clear. It's not like he like, you know, falls asleep and dies. Took some pills. Hannibal just gave him some pills. Hannibal just sort of like punches him in the face and he falls over.

No, I mean, disembowelment, you know. What's that? The guy from... Gianni. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who only plays haggard Italian cops who drink eight espressos like that's his

that's his vibe that was the 90s into the aughts for him yeah he's just like oh James Bond I'm sorry I don't know what to tell you

you shouldn't be here I love that Quantum of Solace has James Bond throwing his body in the garbage and being like he wouldn't care yeah

he might care I like it really felt like Alpha Casino Royale it's like maybe this is the other pillar of the franchise garbage yeah

alright Hannibal Jack Crawford brings Will Graham out of retirement to deal with the tooth fairy who is biting people yes

he's a biter that's kind of the only thing they have to go off of are the bite marks in the book and I feel like in Red Dragon

there's more someone makes like a tooth like a cast of his mouth and all that I feel like that's not in here there's one shot

where the guy from the thing shows it to Crawford you mean the guy from the actual movie the thing the guy with the hands from the thing

got it I was just making sure can I throw out my complaint about this guy which guy tooth fairy oh sure here's one thing i don't like about him i mean on on paper he seems great that's what i'm saying develops people's photos and videos and stuff a service like his use of nylons sure Sure, has a cool like Mars curtain. His house is so goddamn gorgeous. I love the lighting in this house. It's just gorgeous. He has an appreciation for cinema.

He likes to project. I genuinely, I saw that and I was like, fuck, should I get something like this in my apartment? Like one wall is just a big image of something. Should I cultivate a tooth fairy vibe? This is my complaint, okay? Because I like a lot of things about this guy. Okay? Develops photos.

We said the nice things. Finds his next target. Sneaks into their home. Stabs them a bunch. Fucks them up. Maybe fondles. Little fondling. Bites them.

You got it. It's already right there. And then he leaves without even leaving a quarter under their pillow. I mean, the nerve of this guy. You're right. It'd be cool if he took teeth, right?

Just start ripping them out. Yeah. I mean, of a bag of them. Not even a nickel. What a jerk. A hey penny, please. He doesn't want to be called the tooth fairy. I know. He wants to be called the Red Dragon.

He should leave dragons at their house or whatever. I guess he does course correct with Stephen Lang by burning him. Yeah, he burns him. He burns him. He burns him up real good. That's probably... That guy is fully burned. That's, to me, weirdly the most upsetting thing in the movie.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's no good. That sequence is real bad. Which is it? Because in Red Dragon, he bites his the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. That sequence is real bad. Which is it because in Red Dragon he bites his lips off.

Yeah. In the book and in Red Dragon and in Red Dragon Anthony Hopkins like spits the lips like it's gross and this it's a little

it's a little quieter. Well Ray finds when he gets I mean Ray finds when he gets yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And this is just the weird kiss which is disturbing. It was more unsettling kind of to me like it was more visceral like this and this is just the weird kiss which is disturbing it was more unsettling kind of to me it was more visceral this and the shot of the old guy at his security desk

I love that guy that was one of my favorite scenes of this from the beginning and then just the wheelchair right at the camera right because he's turning around a little bit because he's like I run this parking garage I think I hear wheels but those sound way too small. Wait, what? It's a wheelchair? What kind of fucked up car is this coming down the road?

Somebody grilling in my parking garage? The new 1986 burning wheelchairs they had earlier. So, right, yeah, Freddy Lounge sort of bothers them. And Graham pretty quickly goes to see Hannibal Lecter. Right.

I love this character of just this sort of, like, saucy, like, sort of, like, enfant terrible crime reporter. Yes, for the tattler. Right, like, he acts like he's fucking, like, you know, some, like, 1940s, like, Hollywood gossip columnist. But he talks to profilers. And he's like, I've got the hot scoop from inside the FBI's, like, gossip columnist. But he talks to profilers and he's like I've got the hot scoop from inside the FBI's like criminal psychology. So did he eat their buttholes or what? And also like once he is burned up on a

wheelchair it seems like that's it. He was the one flying the ointment. It's not like there's like six guys trying to do this. And that type is now a podcaster. That type is now a podcaster. That guy would just have a podcast and he would record it

in his murder shack out in Delaware or whatever. Yeah. And be like, Freddie Lounds, right? You won't believe what this guy does.

Murders people. He would also do Casper ads. Yeah, right, right. Exactly. If you're going to murder someone, you need to line your basement with Casper mattresses so the sound doesn't get out.

This thing absorbs entrails. If you want to send a finger or a body part through the mail, stamps.com gives you a free digital scale. Are you all out of people to eat?

Well, Blue Apron's got your back. Exactly. That'll sort of tide you over. Teach you some new techniques. We all love killing people, but figuring out how to serve them and best prepare them is daunting. So, the lector scene. Let's talk the lector scene.

I was going to say, I just like how quickly he's like, okay, I'll do this one case for you, and then it's like back into all the fucking bullshit. He can't not do this. He's like, yeah, I'll do this one case. And he's like, doing this fucking fucking he can't not do this right he's like yeah i'll do this one case and he's like my first thought should probably be the guy who traumatized me beyond repair i'll go talk to him i think this is one of the few movies where a character talking

to himself this much makes total sense of course like this guy just stares at a fucking picture for like an hour and is like do do I, do I kiss the body? Right. Do I bite it? Um, but the lector scene rules. It's interesting

how many sort of visual similarities there are to the Silence of the Lambs thing. Sure. In sort of the,

the shot reverse shot through the bars. But the Silence of the Lambs sort of rolls him out where it's like she's walking down the long hallway, he's standing, he's like, you know, ready to sort of rolls him out where it's like she's walking down the long hallway. He's standing.

He's like, you know, ready to sort of like have fun. Where in this, he's this kind of, he's big, you know, he's kind of brutal. You're going to see your ex.

Like that's what this feels like. And I think that's on purpose, but like, and he's so, and he's like a caged animal. Like he's like eyeing him. Like it's like, Cox is small too. Whereas like, he's kind of a bowling like it's like cox is small too yeah he's kind

of a bowling ball like brian dennehy was supposed to be this character i guess i think so i said like you should you should call brian cox right and like he says that's like what i like about he is so small he doesn't stand up the way uh right hopkins does where it's so presented he's just like come on baby come tell me come tell me you're sort of burly he's so presented. He's just like, come on, baby. Come tell me. Come tell me your troubles. He's sort of burly. He's hunched over. He's very still. And he's like very quiet.

Like he just has that sort of like professor arrogance. Yes. But Hopkins is so stylized. And this is like kind of the most like real world scary version. Yes. It's the most like banal take on him. Right. version yes it's the most like banal take on him right um because like vance mickelson like will graham eventually sees him as a black jet black demon with antlers like when he's like

having his hallucination yeah and like do you know that pete holmes joke about silence of the lambs where he's like where he was like when i was learning to make movies i didn't realize the script was never going to be exactly right and then i like in silence the lambs when he after the chianti scene he goes like and he's like right this script doesn't just have 40 f's like hopkins just decided to do that yeah like you know hopkins is so theatrical right or is this guy's not theatrical at all at all right there are no f's in the script i don't know maybe we should look at the script and it's like, his, you know, liver was... They didn't give no Fs, yeah. Actually, from...

Another 10 comedy. Inside the actor's studio, I remember the Hopkins episode very specifically being like, I just did that. Right. I just did that.

Yeah, yeah. Right. And they were like, you know... Demi's like, what if you, like, make a weird sucking sound for 10 seconds?

You just imagine the script supervisor coming up to him after that take and go like, okay, Anthony, just a few notes. First of all, I don't know which draft you've been working off of, but the one I have

here doesn't have 70 consecutive F's in it. Also, you're saying Chianti wrong? And he's like, oh, cool. Fuck off. Do not care. Also, how exactly do you eat Fafa beans? Yeah.

I just suck them in. He's like a Roomba. He's like one by one. I'm Kirby. The Nintendo game, I am Kirby. I just suck them in. Yes. Brian Cox or Anthony Hopkins would be an excellent Kirby.

Brian Cox would be a good Kirby. He's round. He's kind of burly. Okay, wait. Here's an actual thing. Kirby's a bruiser. Here's an actual thing. How's a bruiser. Here's an actual thing. How good would Brian Cox be as Bowser?

Very good. Oh, man. Very good. I mean, we have our fun and games, but let's get really serious here. The crown hangs heavy. Not voicing either. No. No, this is a full shell on that back.

Not motion capture either. Not at all. It's got to be an entirely practical performance. I think he'd be good. I think he'd be. He's got the time. entirely practical performance. I think he'd be good. I think he'd be. He's got the time. He would finally fucking win his Oscar. He would be better than Dennis Hopper was in that role. Have you guys seen,

and I say this because the two of you are on the show because I would usually get laughed at if I asked David and Ben this question. Have you guys seen the Masters of the Universe documentary on Netflix? I did not know this existed, but I know that film. Yeah, it's a documentary

about the history of He-Man as a brand, but they go into the movie a lot. And you're like, Langella's not going to sit down and talk. No, but he's like, this was a character. He's like, it's probably my favorite role I've ever played. Really? Yeah, and he was like, I genuinely, it's one of my greatest regrets in life that. Yeah, and he was like, I genuinely,

it's one of my greatest regrets in life that I never got to play Skeletor again. I miss him. And they're like, so like the costume, like you have all this heavy shit and like the makeup. And he was like,

I was actually really angry that they took the fight scenes away from me and had the stunt guy do them. He's like, I spent eight months training. I mean, I was surprised because they didn't put him in the Canon documentary where they talk extensively about that. Because I think he didn't have anything bad to say.

The other guys were like, we want you to talk shit about this company. He's like, no, no, I loved it. I loved it. This documentary is mostly about the toys, and there's 20 minutes about the movie, and they talk to Langella, and he's like, Yeah, people think I did it because my son liked it, and that that's true but I also thought Skeletor is one of the great characters I've ever read. So this interview is like Frost Skeletor?

It's Frost Skeletor. I just want Cox to do that. I want Cox to be like, this isn't a paycheck for me. I see Bowser as like a King Lear figure. I've grabbed women from towers all the time.

All the time. It's one of my favorite things to do. Bowser wants to get married. That's Bowser's deal, right? He's just pushy. Who's Mario? Who's Mario? Yeah, who's our Mario today?

Dennis Farina. Hoskins was just so good. Hoskins was so good. Farina would have been a good Mario. He's got the mustache. These Goombas are everywhere. Sorry. Dennis Franz could still do it.

I don't know. Dennis Franz could be Mario. He could be like old Mario yeah that would be like Mario the Dark Knight Returns Mario coming out of retirement for one last mushroom

you know like lifts out of the armchair he's like yeah one last mushroom he failed like the princess was never rescued and he's an old withered man and he's like I'm not gonna die on this deathbed

I'm gonna actually try to get that princess I don't care what castle she's in I'm gonna get into a joint to do a super jump that he has some metamucil and sits down for a while i start my scene this is brian cox i start my scene with the back to the audience so i can pull them in i'm trying to seduce them in an entirely different way when tony's doing it mr hopkins he's an indefatigable force sure Sure. He's so theatrical. He does that thing where he's like, closer to Jodie Foster.

My favorite part about the Brian Cox lector is that he does this phone shit and it's right out of War Games. I love that. He's like, a stick of gum? Oh my God.

This movie rules because of all the old tech shit. Yeah. I mean, it almost made me think. The part where they're looking up the IDs too and it's like,

oh yeah. Right, yeah. I just feel like technology in general has kind of ruined procedurals a little bit. Because computers, it's less engaging than watching people tell the facts. The Will Graham experience is that he is beyond technology. He can get in the mind. That's his whole thing. He's Daniel Day-Lewis.

He gets lost. My favorite thing in the entire movie is that he uses the gum to hack the phone and then just eats the stick of gum. Why wouldn't he chew the gum while he's on the phone now that he got the number he wanted? You're right. That's a cool move. That's sort of like a low-key superstar move. Right. He's like, I pulled this off.

I don't need a second shot at this. Well, it's just like the way that you were talking about Hopkins as like he's just presented there and he's a force. Right. Where like this does like just the way he talks like it's very normal.

Yeah. Not to say it's normal. He's very conversational. He is. Whereas there's no big statements the way that Hopkins is. Yes. It's also sort of just

crazy to imagine going to the theater not knowing who Hannibal Lecter is. Maybe having not read the book certainly not knowing about the Hopkins thing. Right. And you're like,

oh, this is, that was an an interesting scene that was pretty arresting they have the one super like that that's the same atrocious aftershave yeah and then like the thing where he's like you have disadvantages you're insane right which is like he's a great line it's such a good line but in like red dragon that is that is like that was in the trailer that was like the hottest line where is this you know, Peterson says it pretty flatly. What's also this movie- He's so afraid to be in the room with him. This movie doesn't hype up Hannibal

in the same way that Tons of Lambs does. You meet him like 10 minutes in and he's just there. Right, and you're just like, this Peterson guy seems to be cautious about going to meet this guy. Sure. But when he's like in the room

and he's like that civilized and that well spoken and that sort of calm, you're like what's going on here? And it's like as the scene unfolds, you start to realize how terrifying this guy is. And I think the way he exits is so, like that whole thing where he's so panicked all of a sudden.

Or it's more like he knows he can't lose, he's about to lose his cool. Right. Like Lecter will see him melt down. I actually like like and it's it's entirely a testament to his work but i like feel physically uncomfortable watching peterson in this movie totally it's like watching britney spears shave her head and you're just like this is i can't get any satisfaction right and it's sort of an interesting lead character to have because he's right you're kind of like dude stop it right oh no Like, oh no. Right. Don't do this. And in the age of the hero cop,

it's so insane to have this and be like, yeah, this is our guy. Right. And he's like, just like, so like sweaty the whole movie. You've got that early scene where he goes to the crime scene and it's like this empty house and he's talking to himself. When does he imagine the woman with like the white eyes? Is that a little later?

That's so good. He's got the weird thing. It's the thing that bugs me about my own hair, where the sides and the back puff out more than the top. He's got a puffy hair. He's not a silver fox. He's a silver lion. He's got a really big mane, and it's well put.

It's lovely. I can't keep my eyes off. Right, because foxes are sleek, and lions are majestic. Peterson's a majestic guy. He's a majestic guy. Billy Peterson. Billy Peterson. We got to do Friedkin so we can do To Live and Die in L. Peterson's a majestic guy. He's a majestic guy. Billy Peterson. Billy Peterson. We gotta do Friedkin

so we can do To Live and Die in LA. We do. He's so good in that. It is crazy now that we're also gonna cover two Hannibal movies in the same year. Yeah, we are.

That's right. And we'll never cover Red Dragon probably. We definitely will cover Hannibal Rising. Of course. Peter Weber. You guys are gonna go

through the Mick G series, right? Yes. Girl with a Pearl podcast. Yeah. Pod with a cast earring. And, you know, we could do Ridley Scott.

I've always wanted to. It's just, he just makes too many movies. That's his problem. I feel like you and I are on the same page if we covered someone with that long a filmography again,

we would maybe do the Spielberg thing where we split it. We'd break it up. We'd find some sort of midpoint. For Scott, I guess it's the 90s. Right. Someone tweeted at us

when you guys started covering Tim Burton, my wife was not visibly pregnant and now she's given birth. Birth. It was a birth. Yeah, she birthed. Come on, what else do we want to talk about in this movie?

Well, you mentioned the white eyes, and I thought... I love that show. Isn't it so good? And the white teeth, the glowing mouth. Right, it's like, because... It's kind of keepy. Yeah. It's one keepy touch.

And Peterson is like, you know, he's going crazy, trying to get in the mind of what the Tooth Fairy is, and he wants to be seen and desired by other people. So it's like almost like I think they're supposed to represent like a reflection. Yes. Because he does take out mirrors

and break them up. He likes mirrors. He likes the moonlight. Like, yeah, right, right. Yeah. I mean, there's all these good reversals in this. Like, I always stick with the, and apparently this was a pain in the ass to shoot,

the scene with him in the airplane and he's dreaming of his home life while the murder photos are just everywhere. That's so great. And I was just like, oh, man. I've been there before. I've watched the wrong movie on an airplane. 100%, right.

Who hasn't watched a snuff film or kept around murder photographs on an airplane? I've had Leota brains and some Tupperware on an airplane. No question. You got it. Because, I mean, the brains they serve on the flight are so bad. Yeah, I know. murder photographs on an airplane. I've had Leota brains and some Tupperware on an airplane and a kid wanted to eat them. The brains they serve on the flight are so bad. Those are microwave freeze-dried brains. Flight attendant, is the motion picture today

on the plane the Zapruder film? Because it's my favorite movie. The long cut. The director's cut, please. Frames inserted. You know the stuff the CIA didn't cut out of it? You could put stills in the middle of it. They're saying these are Leota brains on the menu, but these taste like Ken Wall brains at best.

I was wondering who you were going to do. I was working really hard to pull. I ordered Leota brains and they gave me egg noodles and ketchup. The ultimate ending. Good fellas. That's the link. Peterson's like, I won't do it. Leona's like, I will do it.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. And then he gets his brain eaten. What else? They do the thing where they like shame him in the Tattler. Tattler. Yes.

And that's when you have the Freddie Lounge scene. Yes. I love all that stuff. I mean. Do you see? Yes. It's a little slideshow. The lab thing with the note on the toilet paper

that they know they need to replace. That is really fun. That stuff rules. Because you get all the process and lab stuff. So much good process in this movie. A bulldog from Frasier is one of the guys. And he shows up against the Lance of the Lambs, which is really funny to me.

A bulldog from Frasier. I think Moose was what? What was he? Eddie from... He wasn't a bulldog from Frigidaire. I think Moose was what? What was he? Eddie from... He wasn't a bulldog. He was a terrier? Moose? Yes, he was.

Moose? Well said. Thank you. Winner of the palm dog. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Yeah, no, but all that man process stuff is so good. Yeah. A lot of blue light. All of his blue light. I know, which critics at the time, I think, were kind of like how critics of Soderbergh's time were like, enough with the filters.

They were like, eh, it's too obvious. I love all the filters. I love all that shit. I don't understand people who complain about filters. If it's pointed, I love it. Exactly. If you're just doing it because I saw traffic, yellow's in this year. Like, what the fuck's that?

I just like it where he's like, this is a blue scene. Let's make it blue. Yeah. Put a blue on it. Yeah. Put a blue on it. And blue here is sort of like homie.

It's like, you know, it's for the romance. It's for the scenes with his wife, which is weird. Did you see that? Um, but we're sort of reflects. Yeah.

Especially since it feels like moonlight in those shots. And then we talk about the toothoth Fairy likes the moon as well. He does. He's got an awesome goddamn moon in his apartment or house or whatever. And he watches people from afar in their yards. He loves it. Pretty nice. Whittling on trees.

Not bad. He's a hobbyist. He's a peeper. He's a hobbyist and he's a peeper. He is a classic peeper. I mean, I like the scenes with him in the workspace

like when we finally meet him cause all the the camera really rushes at him I remember the first couple shots of Dollar Hide

you're just like here he is like him moving through the thing and like they pull back the camera really quick and it suddenly

felt like you were like he got away from that distancing thing that is somehow in his in all of his movies like the calm of it all of a sudden got broken and also structurally it's so cool that you hold off on seeing any of the guy for so long and then you spend like 15 minutes just with him right like in his daily life uh i mean look what what did i say to you guys in the dm thread above all else. He's a really good housemaker. He is.

The interior decoration is fantastic. He seems like a pretty good date. I mean, hey, I've never rubbed a tiger. He's a homemaker. A suitor brings me to a tiger to rub. That's a thrilling adventure for me. He's very polite about, like, he's like, I just made you a gin and tonic. It's right in front of you.

I like that scene. Joan Allen's great. It's right in front of you. I like that scene. Joan Allen's great. It's a weird role. It's a slight role, but I love Joan Allen. I mean, look, obviously a major Michael Mann complaint that I only think gets corrected in the last couple of films tends to severely underwrite all of his female characters. Sure. They just exist to be like,

open up to me. Right, right, right. Or don't murder me. Excuse me. What? Could you avoid murdering me? Please, if you wouldn't mind, I'm trying to live here. Yeah, no, I think Madeline Stowe in Mohicans

is kind of his most developed female character. I'm going to give you a hot take. Sure. I think the best one is Jada Pinkett Smith in Collateral. Well, I love Jada Pinkett Smith in Collateral. I think that, you know,

she's also amazing in Ali. Yeah. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. I love her in Collateral, though. She rules that. Love Jada Pinkett Smith. Yeah.

Another person who doesn't get enough respect. 100%. Yeah. Does not get enough respect. Also, another person who was in Gotham. Oh, yes, she was. who was in Gotham Fish Mooney

Fish Mooney forever Fish Mooney I thought she was going to be like did she because she left after first season she's out after

the first season but then she's back and she's like even fishier or whatever she's like remixed something fishy is going on

right exactly she grows scales it was just so weird where they're like this show is going to be kind of built around the penguin. You're like, cool. And the main gangster's called Fish Mooney, and I'm like,

another fish thing? Like, right? The penguin's, he eats fish. Does the penguin eat her? Yeah, right. Got a heavy named the Glacier. Can I say that Jada Pinkett Smith is zombie? Oh, okay. You know what I'm saying? I can see that, actually. Especially in the Fish Mooney Can I say that Jada Pinkett Smith is zombie?

Oh, okay. You know what I'm saying? I can see that, actually. Especially in the Fish Mooney get-up. Yeah. Push me, Fish Mooney. Push me, Fish. Fish me, Push Mooney.

Oh, my God. Man Hunter, it's a masterpiece of 80s crime. I'll say this. This episode works as a sort of exploration of us descending into madness William Peterson style. As the filters around us are all like tinted blue.

Yeah, Ben put on a blue filter in the room where we're recording. That feels very calming. It is calming. It's relaxing. It's the calm before the storm

because we should probably mention the whole like Peterson's not supposed to even go ahead of everyone and break into uh what's his name dollar hides yeah dollar hide interesting name great name francis's dollar hide and it's the most interesting way to break into someone's house is you just start running at

their fucking window and jump through it well yeah you got to go the rambo entrance yeah that's what you want and it backfires in such a great way. Yeah. It's fantastic. You think it's a bad idea to make a nice, loud entrance that also probably damages your body

in the process? This guy is not a threat. He's only 6'7". Also incapacitates you. Yes. Ugh. You know, I mean,

we're getting to the, I mean, there's the thing with like his home address, right? That that's the code. That's pretty cool. And I like that scene and the sort of red herring of it.

It's not the Bible. And also the kid waking up, waking up Kim Grace saying that they hear someone. You think it's going to be Dollar High. And it's all the SWAT guys being like, hey, how's it going? Hey, what's up? And it's the guy,

isn't it the guy who the Terminator 2, the T-1000 finger pokes? Oh no, it's not him. It's not him? It's similar vibe. It's the guy, isn't it the guy who the Terminator 2, the T-1000 finger pokes? Oh no, it's not him. It's that guy. That guy is in shit. That guy is in shit. That redhead guy? He's in Gremlins 2. They're both in Gremlins 2.

Yes, the twin brothers. And they're in Looney Tunes back in action as the Warner Brothers. Oh really? Joe Dante loves them. Another guy in this film that's uncredited. I forget the actor's name. He's at the start where he's like saying, oh, the VHS tapes of the families are in your place, William Peterson.

And he's been in like everything. He was in Stand By Me as like the bad dad, like the wrong kid died. Yes. I forget his name. It's killing me because I know he's been in so much other stuff. I thought you were going to bring up the fact that in the, one of the scenes where we're breaking down, like we're getting ready to go find him. Chris Elliott.

Yes. That is wild. Thank you. This is the year before the abyss. It's prime. Chris Elliott's in a scene. I wouldn't forgive myself if we didn't mention Chris Elliott. The best.

Also. The boy himself. And Get a Life. Oh, yes. And The Late Show with David Letterman. That's what's weird is that like before he started having a proper acting career, it was like Letterman sketches, then like one scene roles in totally dramatic films playing straight perfunctory roles. And then he becomes like weirdo comedy actor.

Right. I was expecting him to have like a zinger or something. He just dispenses some info. Yeah. There's a lot of office chat in this movie. He just reads the shit off the monitor. He's like, there's an alien and it's saying something. Looks like it's in the abyss.

But lots of office chat really like 80 of this movie is office chat it's like brightly lit rooms farina in a black suit like looking stressed that's the thing i like is that like even though it's dealing with like these grotesque like horrific murders the office scenes have the exact same like aesthetic to them as like beverly hills cop yes yeah like the first one where it's just like, this is just a workaday thing. Imagine what greater horror than having this be your day job.

Although you get to scramble a lot of choppers and jets. Some good chopper action in this one. I love the tattler. What a silly name for that. Oh, I can't wait to see what's been tattled this week. Tattling is He's like, oh, I can't wait to see what's been tattled this week. Tattling is bad.

And awful. No one likes a tattler. Childish. And they also print the most obscure, odd personals. Right. That's like avid fan. Right. Right.

Right. Bizarre. But that's how you made your money in the 80s. In the 80s print business. You had tattle. Yeah. Serial killer personals. Yeah.

So, yeah. But that whole system is cool of them realizing that's how they're communicating. That's cool. The moment where you realize the Dollar Hyde and Lecter in communication is like, His Dollar Hyde's like, Lecter? I hear he eats

them. I just bite. Game. Recognize game. Yeah, me, I just bite. He's just chewer. Right, exactly. He's a chewer and he's an even. And a nibble. And I love the Peterson detail of like, make sure the sign in the background is a little fuzzier because we want him to be able to make it out, but not make him think that we didn't want it. Exactly.

Right. And then there's the Denouement. I mean, we've talked about this movie. We're fine, right? Plot-wise, I'm trying to think if there's anything else we've forgotten before the... We did a little less literal plotting, but we covered the things. Yeah, I think those are the main things.

Right. Yeah, the break-in. Yeah, we got through them. Right. There's the big break in the shootout scene where some cops needlessly die because William Peterson rushes in, by the way. We see some dude's brains or something. Yeah, there's one really gory shooting death.

Yeah, because he's got a shotgun. I want to say, Michael Mann spent several years corresponding with an imprisoned murderer called Dennis Wayne Wallace, which sounds like something Michael Mann would just do for kicks. And Wallace told him he was obsessed with a woman he didn't know, and

that Iron Butterfly's song, Indigada De Vida, was like their song in his head. And he told Mann this, like, I would always hear it if I saw her. And so Mann was like, cool, cool, cool, gonna use it in my movie. That's like, that's my denouement. Do you have any idea what started that

correspondence? Oh, I'm probably just chatting. I don't know. Big fan. Charlie Manson. Michael Mann was a big fan of his work. exactly yes yes i think he probably wrote to all the serial killers because you mentioned hannibal yeah had much uh build up as avengers endgame in the press and whatnot yeah i just want that avengers of serial killers yeah charlie manson hannibal is kind of a you know a fictional creation but let's say he's

in there yeah yeah, I guess. That's the thing. Would you want to go all fictional? How about a mix? Interesting. Michael Myers, maybe? He's a fun guy. He'd be more of a Groot-type character. You can't do Jason Voorhees because he'd smell

too much, and you're going on Sky Carriers? Is that what they have? Isn't one of those things whereason feels a little more like monstery than michael myers who was just like this is a very skilled serial killer you could easily meet hannibal in the site in the psych what is it called asylum a psychiatric institute yeah something else i just found out that i have to tell you they couldn't afford a fake plane for the plane scene so he just booked the a plane he booked the whole crew onto a plane like uh what was uh chicago to orlando and then when the plane took off they took out cameras and started filming and the stewardesses were like what are you you can't do this what they took it hostage that's insane

that's amazing that's if you did that now michael Mann would be in prison. He'd be like, no, no plain antics. Gitmo. Can I tell you guys, I pitched this to David the other day, talking about big, ultimate, epic crossover, team-up movies we want to see. We're only two in, but I think he's keeping a good pace, and pretty soon we could get the ultimate team-up movie of Nicholas Holt playing 20th century novelists.

Oh, yeah. Oh, man. We've got Tolkien. And we've got Salinger. We've got Salinger. He's working through them. So who should he play next? Wow.

Elmore Leonard? L. Ron Hubbard. Oh, yeah. L. Ron Hubbard and Elmore Leonard. Only as a novelist. I want a movie that's just about him writing his novels. What if Earth was the battlefield? only as a novelist I want a movie that's just about him writing his novel like what if earth was the battlefield

there is like literally a scene in Tolkien where he like is like looks distantly into you know middle distance

like a fellowship like that or you could play like Raymond Chandler and just be like oh wait what's that

a gun I saw a guy with a gun let's put that in my in my my novel. Let me write a hundred books. High earth.

No. Lower. Balls it up through. Wait a sec. Middle earth. There's definitely a scene in Tolkien where he goes middle. Like he says that. Is there a ring thing in it?

I mean, he has to get a ring. And he goes like, with this ring, I thee bind. Oh, sorry, honey. Let's just say a goblin took my ring. He takes it as a typewriter on the altar. That's why I haven't been wearing my wedding

band because a golem took it? Wait a second. Went into a volcano. I don't know what happened. I guess that's divorce. Does he get divorced by throwing his wedding ring into a volcano I don't know what happened I guess that's divorce does he get divorced by throwing his wedding ring into a volcano Mount Doom was divorce Mount Doom was divorce yeah I don't know

Dollar Hyde sees Joan Allen kissing someone goes nuts he puts it together Graham puts it all together he's a film guy he's seen the photos he's seen the film before he's paced the house

through that he's the original 24 hour photo yes side of the photo that's a great moment too just like the padlock

the pets you added 23 hours to that yeah jeez I overshot by a lot you really did what a bad business one million hour photo

that's the sequel what I like about that scene before the before the before he gets he takes Joan Allen is you're just in there's a freaking

rocking song Strong As I Am oh that song rocked and then you see him literally pull the

top of his car like off and I'm like I just assumed he was a string bean up until now no he's superhuman literally pull the top of his car like off. Yep. And I'm like, I just assumed he was a string bean up until now. No, he's superhuman.

He's like a beast. Oh, the other thing we should talk about is. Well, especially if the dragon, if he's trying to get into dragon mode. I am the dragon. He has dragon energy. This does have big D.

The fucking stocking over the head look. Scary. Very scary. Yeah, but has anyone been fooled by that? I could still make this guy out in a mug shot. Well, if someone did that now, I'd be like, Manhunter? You like a Manhunter?

If a serial killer had half stocking, I'd be like, oh, Michael Mann. I love him. Clever reference. Yeah. Box office game? Oh, well, I just want to say the shootout is cool yeah yes i love a man shootout i love his weird approach to gunshots with the sort of like stuttery kind

of like approach to gunshots tom noonan with a one-handed shotgun shot that was wild yeah uh noonan a zillion gallons of blood comes out of him right and there's that thing where he's lying he got stuck to the ground because it was so much fucking fake blood and it was like hot they had to like peel the floor off with him let's play the box office game Manhunter big flop came out August 15th sweaty 1986 so I am

like 4 months old you haven't been born I've not been born yet it made 8.6 million dollars which yeah is not good. I'm three, by the way. Yeah, me too. There you go.

This is the first Dante Spinotti, which is like man's regular guy. Just another crazy thing that this film, 30 years earlier, unadjusted, still outgrossed Black Hat. Yes, exactly.

Black Hat made less than 8.6. I loved Black Hat. I think Black Hat ruled. Really? Most people tell me I am... Black Hat honks. yes exactly black hat made less than eight i loved i loved black hat i think a rule really most people tell me i am black hat honks yeah oh my god it's so good i love that now i gotta wait two years to use it it's cool now black hat's great um no black hat fucking rules it is crazy i was like that didn't do well right It did like 15 and we looked it up. Like seven. It is so good. Seven released on like 3,000 screens during Thor.

That's insane. But people tell me I'm wrong. No, it's a great movie. I'm glad to know that I'm right. No. I picked a honker. We'll get to it. But you definitely picked a honker.

Here's the thing. You hear August 1986 and you're like, oh, that must have been like a trashy time for the movies, right? Right. Like August used to be a real dumping ground. Yes. Number one this weekend, he's going to guess the box office.

And feel free to guess yourself if Griffin's struggling. He'll usually beat everyone to the punch. Number one is maybe my favorite movie of this year. Wow.

It's a horror movie. Does it win best picture in your spreadsheet? No. David has a spreadsheet of who he would give the awards to every year and every year.

Really? Can I see this one? Other people that. Yes. No. This is a secret. I'm talking about it on my podcast.

I don't know. I think an FBI profiler needs to take a look at you. Yeah. I probably do. No. This is a top movie. This is such a good movie.

It's a horror movie. It's a good movie it's a horror movie it's a horror movie it's from a great director elevated horror i know what it is is it a carpenter it's the fly oh i was gonna guess what fly carpenter cronenberg what year is thing 87 things the same year as et isn't it isn? Oh, it's earlier? It's 84? Let's find out. Let's find out. 82. Okay. Wow.

A lot earlier. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's The Fly. The Fly opened this weekend. Manhunter opened against The Fly. Is he your best actor winner?

Yes. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Thank God. Seven million. The Fly opens number one. Manhunter's opening number eight.

Wow. Yeah. People are not open to $2 million. Manhunter, no one wants to see that. The Fly is so good. Dounter's opening number eight. You know, people are not open to two million dollars. Manhunter, no one wants to see that. Fly is so good. Do we like The Fly? The Fly is amazing. It's pretty good. It's an incredible movie. Ben? You a Fly guy?

Buzz, buzz, buzz. That was definitely the one where I was like, oh, I'm definitely into this guy. Like, I had seen A History of Violence and I was like, that's really good. And then I went back and I was like, okay. I think Fly was the first one of his I saw. I saw it like when I was homesick that's really good. And then I went back and I was like, okay. I think Fly was the first one of his I saw. I saw it like when I was homesick from school on TV. And when I started watching in the first 30 minutes, I was like, oh, this must be different

than that horror movie, The Fly. I'd seen the image of like the final creature and I was like, well, that couldn't be in this movie. This is some other movie that has the same title. And then when it started transforming into that movie, I was like, this couldn't be in this movie this is some other movie that has the same title and then when it started transforming into that movie I was like this is the greatest movie I've ever seen

yeah fly rules number two at the box office is a comedy it's also new this week a comedy starring a Ben guy

starring a Ben guy do you agree? Ben's laughing just looking at the title I have not seen this film I've never seen this film. Is it John Candy? It is.

87? Is it Who is Harry Crumb? It's not Who is Harry Crumb. Great Outdoors? Armed and Dangerous. Correct. Is that him and Levy? Him and Levy, Robert Loja, Young Maid Ryan.

It's good. Really? You should check it out, honestly. Are they cops? What are they? They're like security guards. It's one. Really? You should check it out. Honestly. Are they cops? What are they? They're like security guards. It's one of those classic, you know this actor.

Yes, I know John Candy. He has a job. This job. Well, there's kind of a plot with waste management, I think. Yes, there is. Yeah, it's funny. Honestly, check it out. At guard dog security,

John Candy is undercover. You thought the tagline was over? No, no. That was just the first sentence. Overdressed. That's the second sentence. And keeping you safe from the scum of the earth. It's got like a scarf?

That is from the climatic sequence. Wow. In which he has to take over a big rig truck. Yes, it's a honker, dude. It's a honker. This one honks. Isn't Men in Black protecting you from the scum of the universe? Yes.

Very similar taglines. Well, they ripped it off, I guess. I don't know this movie, but it opened above Manhunter. Wow. Finished with 15. Wow. All right, number three is...

Just a quick, very, very tiny say of tangent. What keeps throwing me off, I keep on making jokes about Zachary Levi being a Jew, like in a prideful way. Like Shazam's a Jew, which he's like super fucking Christian, but it's because of Eugene Levy and Levi. I'm like, well, Levy's the ultimate Jew.

Those names are so similar. He must be Jewish. And then apparently he was one of those guys who would be like converting people on the set of Chuck. He's an evangelical Christian. He was a guy where people would be like hey great take zach and he's like you want on the secret to that take i've accepted the lord into my heart wow he was one of those guys right yeah i'd love to i'd love to work with that yeah i'd love to be a pa on that set that'd be so fun it's like just let me fucking slice the bagels levi and i just slept one off. I'm sorry if you're not. Yeah.

Number three. Okay, number three. It is just another masterpiece of 1986. Truly? Yeah, we've covered it on this podcast. We've covered it on this podcast?

We have! Wow, Ben's nodding effusively. I mean, it's good. Broadcast news? No, that's 87. That was a Christmas movie. You know, 85, 86, 87, I always get mushed up wrong. Sure. Okay. That's good. Broadcast news? No, that's 87. That was a Christmas movie. You know, 85, 86, 87, I always get mushed up, Ron. Sure.

Okay. That's acceptable. We've covered it on this podcast. Robocop's 87. It's a sequel. It's a sequel. Piranha 2, The Spawning. I'm joking.

I know it's not. Okay. More successful sequel. We've covered it on this podcast. Did we also cover the first movie? No. Oh. Aliens?

Oh. Aliens, in its fifth week, has made $55 million. Another masterpiece. Number four, another sequel to the biggest hit of,

I don't know, last year or whenever this fucking, the original one came out. We have not covered it on the podcast. But it's a big, it's one of the big movies of the 80s? Yeah, yes, yes. Definitive 80s movie. And how'd the sequel do?

Great, 115. And did they make another one? Hell yeah. They made a bunch. They made five overall if you can count like spinoffs and reboots and shit. Count spinoffs and reboots? That sounds tough. Hmm. Is it a Rambo? No. Hmm. all if you can count like spinoffs and reboots and shit count spinoffs and reboots that's tough is it a rambo no 86 spinoffs and reboots he says would that be die hard 2 nope nope i think die hard 1 is 87 no yeah spinoffs and reboots. Is it a star-driven?

No. Give me the genre, my friend. Kid. Kid movie. Oh. That's the genre. Kid. With spinoffs and reboots.

This was the most successful. This was the biggest one? Mm-hmm. Which people kind of forget. It peaked at two. It's a kid franchise, spinoffs and reboots is a kid the star uh yes yeah yeah definitely definitely yeah yeah yeah but there's like an older guy who's like you know the co-star this is a tough one chris is fucking bigfooting you right now. All of your guy and the kid. And does the kid still work today?

Barely. Okay. Only in like nostalgia projects. I'm probably way off on the timing. Bad News Bears 2? Nope. It's not a Feldman. Think like a big deal.

These movies were very successful. Like endlessly parodied. Sure. Endlessly parody. This is the biggest. It is, but that's a bad clue because you would never remember that this was the biggest. Well, I mean, me though.

I might remember. A kid and an older guy. Oh my God. Oh, oh, oh, I know exactly. What is it? It is. It's Karate Kid Part 2. That's exactly. What is it? It is. It's Karate Kid Part 2. That's right.

The Karate Kid Part 2. I don't view him as a kid when I watch those movies. You're right. You're right. But I always looked up to Ralph Macchio to this day still. Because I'm like, maybe I can learn karate. Number five. Hey, look.

Good hands. You're doing good here. That's one of those weird ones where it's like touching the part of the elephant You can learn karate. Yeah. Number five. Good. Hey, look. Good hands. Yeah. You're doing good here. That's one of those weird ones where it's like touching the part of the elephant and trying to describe it. Like, you describe any element of Karate Kid and it sounds like a different movie. And you would immediately know it, too. Right. Yes.

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Number five is a movie that is the final film of a legend, but it also stars one of the most famous actors alive when he's, like, young. Is it Nothing in Common? It's Nothing in Common. Gary Marshall's Nothing in Common with Jackie Gleason.

I was hoping I would get to describe the poster to you. It's one of those movies where it's like, two guys are looking at each other and they're not happy. You know why this movie seared into my brain? Why? It was a question at our trivia night that we used to go to at Videology in Brooklyn, RIP. Yeah, right.

And it was like, what's the name of the film that stars Tom Hanks and Jackie Gleason? And I was like, oh, fuck. I'm remembering the poster. I mean, it's a pretty boring title. It's the two of them. They got the hats. They're staring off at each other. And I was like, what's it called?

Oh, fuck. It's nothing. It's not nothing but trouble. It's not nothing. And I was like trying. I was like, guys, help me. And everyone else was like, I have no idea what it is. Sure. And I was like, what is it? It's not nothing but trouble. It's not nothing. And I was like trying. I was like, guys, help me. And everyone else was like, I have no idea what it is. Sure.

And I was like, what is it? It's nothing in nothing. And then I turned to our friend, member of the team, Kamen Volkovsky. Yeah. And I said, nothing in common. What is it? That's right. And it wasn't a joke.

That's how I figured it out. That's how you figured it out. His name is K-A-M-E-N. That's right. And by saying his name, I remembered the title. Nothing in common. Nothing in common. They have nothing in common, I guess.

What's that movie about? I think that's the point. It's about that. It's about right. So that's your top five. Wow. Top Gun is still in there. Ruthless People.

Heartburn. It is shocking to me that Ruthless People made as much money as it did. It was humongous. It did so well. Is it the highest grossing of the Zuckers? Adjusted? I don't know. It made $174 adjusted. Which is a lot.

For a Danny DeVito vehicle. But I think Airplane might be unbeatable. Airplane made $280 million adjusted. Really? Wow. I mean also consider Like all the money Made off of TV too man Airplane

Is still On TV Non-stop And Naked Gun Two and a half Made 186 Naked Gun two and a half Was

That's the biggest of the three Huge Is Airplane the only Spoof movie that Has Surpassed what it's spoofing 100% You know like

There's all those Airplane Airport Airport 77 Yeah Yeah I think Yes movie that has surpassed what it's spoofing because you know like there's all those airplane airport airport 77 and shit yeah yeah yeah i think uh yes and and what was it zero hour is that the other thing yes that's the movie it's sort of specifically spoofing right yes i i mean i remember watching that as a kid and not having my my parents were like you like mel brooks here's another parody movie and i was like this isn't parodying anything like any Mel Brooks movie I watched I was like cool sci-fi horror westerns and I was like this isn't a genre what's it parodying

my parents were like five huge movies one of which was nominated for best picture the 1970s airplane craze weird fucking subgenre plane check dude go through all of them oh all the planes all the airport movies? Yeah, so you can end with... Delta Force.

I was going to say United 93. No, I'll never watch it. Delta Force? You'll never watch United 93? Is that a movie that you've avoided watching because it'll just freak you out too much? Wow. Good movie.

No, thank you. Good movie I will never watch again. Well, especially because everyone's like, no, but it's very realistic. And I was like, I'm backing further away. You're not helping this. It really captures what it would exactly be like

to have that experience. It'll turn you into a Lars von Trier or a, who did we say seven hours ago? Mick G. Mick G. I'm a Mick G, basically. Yes.

That's not true. I'll get on with it. You know the great irony? Mick G, Afraid of Flying, also directed Pretty Fly for a White Guy music video. You know, now that you say that, it makes total sense.

Stylistically, it's all there. It's true. We're done. We're done. Wow. Final thoughts. It's a great movie. Good movie. I feel like

for production designers, to get to design the serial killer's home is really fun. Oh, yeah. That must be like one of the best design jobs you can get. The other one I think of that I think is really well done is Stellan Sarsgaard's weird murder basement in Girl with the Dragon. I love that murder basement. It's a great murder basement.

It's like very clean sort of Ikea murder basement. I just like thinking about that, that the guy's like, all right, I love murder. I guess I'll have to design a whole basement. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And he makes it very clean. Yes, his is very like, it's like a meat locker. I'm more of a science of lamb murder basement.

That is one of the great murder basements. I mean, you have a well. Yes, you have a well, you have a freaking insect place

and your ministry on in the background insect place i love dollar hides i mean just like that 80s like cube glass brick yes the the the moon light and the not the actual not the moon light from the moon but like this light that's a moon. He's got a moon on his wall. One big fucking image. Yeah, and like Mars as well. It's just, it's surprising for a serial killer to be so into space

and I like it. He likes space. Maybe he thinks we'd all be better off up there. Yeah, he's kind of a space cadet. I do want to know how much the critics had their knives out

for this movie because I think they were all just like, fuck Miami Vice, we're sick of it. You know, I think people were over Miami Vice. Right, and everyone's reading on man was style over substance. Exactly, so they were all just like, fuck Miami Vice, we're sick of it. I think people were over Miami Vice.

Right, and everyone's read on man was style over substance. Exactly, so they were like, overkill, hokey. That's the crazy thing is that they wrote him off as the MTV director. They were like, oh, it's just all music and colors. Yeah, this guy's flashing the pan. He was man G. Yeah. Sheila Benson at LA Times was like,

chic, well- cast, wasteland but I'll say this Leonard Maltin who liked the movie said it's gripping and it's surprisingly non-exploited which is kind of a good take on Manhunter Ebert likes it too I feel like I saw Ebert's review

it could have definitely relished more in the killings and done all the rants it kind of cuts away from all that the wheelchair thing is very brief you don't see him ripping off the guy's lips those are elements in the killings and done all the rants. Right, no, it kind of cuts away from all that. The wheelchair thing is very brief. You don't see him ripping off the guy's lips, which are all, those are elements in the book

that he just sort of skims over. Especially compared to all the other Hannibal Lecter products. Right. And you also see, you don't see the murder photos in full until that quick shot of him on the airplane

where the kid sees it. Right, and even so, you're not seeing the worst of them. No, not at all. You're seeing very quick flashes. Yeah, no, that is a fair take from old Malty. Good job, Malty. Star of Gremlins 2.

He seems like more of a VH1 director than just surfaces alone. Yeah. Not MTV, like, wow, wow, wow, wow. Just plain. See, MTV is very early, and then you age. What we would think as VH1 would be early MTV,

I would think. I just think it's incredible that like like when the man Otoris always go like he doesn't make movies for kids

he makes movies about grown-ups and when he was making these early movies everyone's like this guy's making fucking movies for kids what's this kiddie bullshit I guess that's

right that's how it goes yeah I just know I want my man TV hey on that note yep on that note on that note end this podcast finish it uh we hate movies uh everyone everyone should be listening yes please

do listen to our show yeah you could find us at whmpodcast.com and wherever podcasts are available i do want to quickly tease something if that that's okay. Oh, yes, please. People always ask this because we don't go out there very often, but we are going to be doing a West Coast tour in November, early November. Give a lot of heads up for all our West Coast... Do you have a name for your listeners?

Is there like a... No, our fans are blankies. Yeah, I saw the blankies. We've been thinking about it, and like haters just doesn't work. Movers? We started our show in 2010, and it was a bad name. It was a fine name. It's okay. But I think we said hate-alos once before.

Hate-alos? Hate-alos. Like juggalo, but hate-alos. I mean, I think that's really good. That's up Griffin's alley. Okay, good. Well, if Griffin likes likes it we'll keep it yeah cool

so all those West Coast hate-a-lows come on out yeah come on out thank you all for listening please remember to rate, review, subscribe

thanks to Andrew Guto for our social media Joe Bonpatte-Reylands for our artwork Liam Monk for our theme song go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit

go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shit. Go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts. Patreon, blank check bonus features where we do commentaries on franchises. And I guess we're now committed to doing

all of the airport movies someday. Sure, right. Yeah, that's on the list now. Yeah. That's in the hopper. That's going to be the next one

after the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Right. The obvious next franchise to cover. It's like the 70s MCU, basically. Yeah, it was. Yeah, kind of like that. And, as always, Hannibal Lecter is out.