Blank Check with Griffin & David - Melvin and Howard (and Jordan Hoffman)

Episode Date: November 24, 2019

Finally, we get to the good Demme movies with film critic Jordan Hoffman. The partially true story of a guy who thinks Howard Hughes is gonna leave him money. What made Griffin almost cry (and not in frustration)? What is an animated movie actually and is it for children? What game shows attracted the weirdest contestants. Why isn't there a good movie where someone's telling someone to go get their shine box? And what's your favorite Airplane joke? Music selection: "Night on the Docks" by Kevin MacLeod. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License.

Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check Okay, now listen, buddy. You want to do me a favor? Depends on what it is. Look, I host this podcast. No.

What, you like that? No, it's like he's cutting them off. Oh, I see. You're remembering this better than I am. I don't know. I wrote this song. No. Immediately.

No! Okay, ready? Third time's the charm. Jesus Christ. Okay. There's Third time's the charm. Jesus Christ. Okay. There's three quotes on the quote page. Okay. So we got it.

Performance has to carry the day on this one. I'm no Robards. I know. He's my winner this year. Trust me, I know. Jesus Christ. Okay, ready? Yeah.

Let's just run. I host this podcast. Wait, what? I want to test you. He wants to rehearse. Griffin, just do the run. I host this podcast. Wait, what? I want to like test you. He wants to rehearse. Griffin, just do the fucking thing and I'll reply. Let's get this show on the road. Jesus.

You got to hit your cue though. Oh my God. Okay, ready? No actor. Please. You just did that joke one second ago. You can't do it again. You gave me another alley-oop.

Okay. Ready? Now listen, buddy. You want to do me a favor? Depends on what it is. I host-oop. Okay. Ready? Now listen, buddy. You want to do me a favor? Depends on what it is. I host this podcast. No. Perfect.

All right. Got it in one take. No. Got it in one take. I only heard one take. When did he die? Robards? He dies in 2000 because he dies after Magnolia.

Right. So it's like, yeah, of course he's in Magnolia, right? Right. He just looks so near death in this movie. It's wonderful. The man he looks like in this film, and I'm only going to say this one time, is Beetlejuice. I will not say that name again. He's got the poofed out.

I'm not going to risk it. But also the circles around the eyes, and he's sort of got like white pancake makeup, and the lines in his face are so like, they look like etched in like a wood carving um to to a degree i wonder if he's someone you can fright as much as right because he's such a legendarily wacky figure anyway but i think his hair especially the hairline and the sort of like crazy like fly away strands and all of that i wonder if to some degree Mr. Juice was visually inspired by this performance. You could see some combination of Keaton and Burton going

what if it's like an undead version of Jason Robards and Melvin and Howard. Right? Sure. That could happen. It might have. It might have. Or the hair and makeup person being like, what do you got for us, Gladys? Well, I was kind of inspired by Jason Robards and what I put together here.

The super dark purple circles fully around the eyes. Yeah. You know? Sure. There's something there. Yeah, but it's kind of incredible to watch a performance like this and then be like, and he had 20 more years left in him playing old guys near death.

What you would imagine is right. It's like, yeah, that was his last performance. Then he died and it was a great career he had. I suspect that he wasn't actually that old when he made this. I mean, this might be like if you look at

Matthau and the Sunshine Boys, he wasn't as old as George Burns. I think he was old but they definitely made him look worse. It does sort of speak to the weird fatalism

of being an actor where it's like you have to spend 20 years dying before you die. He was 78 when he died. He's only like 58, 60, 59. That's crazy.

He's in his 50s in this movie. Good crag though. Nice craggy boy. What's upon time in the West he looks like this basically. That's like 20 years before this. I was digging into this. Robards wins two back-to-back supporting actor nominees.

Yeah, but it's the classic he should have won. No, it's not. Take it back. Carry on. Right. You were going to say. The correct win was the first one. Right.

The second one's kind of odd. Right. He's good in that movie, but it's not. I don't even remember. He wins for all the president's men. In 77. You know, which is like classic supporting actor gravitas. Definition of a supporting actor role.

And then he wins for Julia the following year. He was in Julia? I've never seen Julia. Apparently he has nine minutes of screen time. I think he has one big scene. He's playing Dashiell Hammett. It's a big electrifying supporting performance. This is the one about the Holocaust film, right? It's a big electrifying supporting performance. This is the one about the, it's a Holocaust film, right?

It's a World War II movie. Yeah, it's a Nazi Germany Lillian Hellman. I saw it when I was a young kid. Jane Fonda, Vanessa Redgrave. It's the one Vanessa Redgrave won and she was like, I don't like Israel. And everyone was like, ah! And Robards didn't even show up. He didn't even show up.

It's the year he beat Alec Guinness. For Star Wars? For Star Wars. Which everyone thought Guinness year he beat Alec Guinness. For Star Wars? For Star Wars. Which everyone thought Guinness was going to win because Guinness was such a ledge. That would have kind of been cool to give Alec Guinness one final Oscar. Yeah, it would have been number... So I didn't realize that. So Robards was...

He gets enough just for being Star Wars. Give me a break. It ruined his fucking life. It did. The last years of his life. Yeah, well, he was able to live off the Guinness fortune. Yeah, right. Kept on making that beer in his name.

You know, when I'm looking at... So it was Guinness, previous winner. Maximilian Schell, also in Julia, previous winner. Right. Peter Firth and Equus, who's like the kid, the kind of classic we snuck the lead into a supporting category. Right, okay, sure. Great performance. I guess that could have won. And then Mikhail Baryshnikov in The Turning Point, the kind of classic we snuck the lead into a supporting category right okay great performance

I guess that could have won and then Mikhail Baryshnikov in The Turning Point the famous all snubs right big hit but then like 11 nominations

no wins something like that yeah he would have been good there was a lot of that him it was kind of like he's a good dancer not a good actor

get out of here but there was weirdly a lot of that in like the 70s and 80s where it's like Dexter Gordon gets nominated for Best Actor. Right. Mikhail Baryshnikov gets nominated for Best Supporting. Like someone who wasn't really a movie star.

Yeah. But like once did a big movie role. I'm glad you brought up Dexter Gordon in Round Midnight. It's one of the greatest movies ever made. I've never seen it. I mean, sorry. It's a good movie. Yeah.

Yeah. But it is a fascinating phenomenon. Right. He was a jazz musician. But someone who was like already so established and respected in their field. And then they go over to movies and that skepticism is immediately melted away by, you know what? You're one of us. Here you go.

That doesn't happen too much these days. They used to love a newcomer. Right. I guess, yeah. Now it's all politics. But Jennifer Hudson is a, you know, is a classic example. Jennifer Hudson's example. Lady Gaga would be that if she hadn't spent 10 years trying to break in first. You know, by the time she got the nomination, everyone was so aware that she wanted to be an actress.

Did she win, Lady Gaga? No, she did not. Did she get nominated? She did. Who won? Olivia Colman. Very surprising. That was super.

Right. Lady Gaga should have won over Glenn Close, but not over Olivia Colman. Right. Right. Right, Glenn Close. What if there was a wife? The wife.

I didn't see that yet. Oh. You know what? You may have seen it and forgotten it. It's very possible. I'm going to say something radical. Oh my God, here it comes. You said you've never seen it yet.

You hadn't seen it yet. I'm going to wager that you could spend the rest of your life not seeing that movie. And die a perfectly happy and content man at the age of 174. I'll never see it. I was recently on an aeroplane and I noticed that it was one of the...

God, there was... Because I flew a lot of planes in that sort of like December. And it was like the plane movie. Everyone was either watching The Wife or like Bahamian Rhapsody or whatever. I kept on not watching it on planes because it went to planes quickly. Yeah. And I kept on not watching it on planes and being like, they're not going to actually nominate her, right?

And then when she got nominated, when the nominations came out, I was like, God fucking damn it. And I went and saw it at a theater. At the Paris probably? No, I saw it at the weird landmark that's on the West Side Highway. Oh my God. And I just like sat there with my arms crossed. That's Wife Central. Yes. That's Wife HQ HQ I watched it on the screener

as it was intended to be watched I saw it after a George Lucas talk show because because Glenn Close and Jonathan Price had done the panel

right they had just done it and I felt shitty that I had spent the entire show bluffing with Wada pretending he liked both of their performances you should have done

like a Wife Week forget Star Wars this week it's all about the wife. I do love Jonathan Pryce, by the way. I do too. He's always pretty damn good. Yes, he is.

Well, now he's hashtag the two popes. He's so fucking great. He's one of the two popes? He's one of the two popes. It's Anthony Hopkins and Jonathan Pryce? He's the young pope. No, no, no. The young pope is someone else.

He's the younger of the two popes. He is. It's fascinating because I recently rewatched Evita because I wrote this big Antonio Banderas piece. Yeah. Congrats, by the way. Thank you. Yes, it did. Whatever.

And he's obviously, he plays Juan Peron, basically one of the most famous Argentinians who ever lived in that movie. But in that movie, everyone just uses an English accent. There's not really much effort to have a Latin accent there. And the two popes, he's playing another one of the most famous Argentinians who ever lived. Pope Francis, Bergoglio. And he does this incredibly

accurate accent that is amazing to behold. He's a fucking genius. 30 years to prepare. 20, 25. Oh, 20, yeah. I was thinking the genius. 30 years to prepare. 20, 25. Oh, 20. Yeah. I was thinking the show on Broadway.

On Broadway. No, no, but that was Mandy Patinkin. Well, no, Mandy Patinkin was Che, not a.

Right. He was the Banderas. Bob Gunton was, was Penron. Wow. You can watch it with Patti LuPone, Bob Gunton, and Mandy Patinkin.

Wow. Yeah. Banderas is Che. He's the best part. Three of them are Spanish people ever. He's fucking amazing. Gunton, LuPone.

They have. Patinkin was your classic swarthy guy on Broadway in the 80s. You know, what's he, Greek? Get Patinkin. What's he, Mediterranean? What's he, you know, anything. I was thinking, and this is a thing that you will undoubtedly have a lot of opinions on, Jordan. But I've been thinking a lot about Jewish representation in movies recently. And it is funny that, like, Hollywood has traditionally been very welcoming to Jewish actors

as long as they play people of other ethnicities and any Jewish characters have to be played by goys you know like in classic Hollywood it was like you will never lack work you will play a Middle Easterner you will play a Mexican and then they like right like they will

option a famous like Jewish novel and be like and of course Clark Gable is playing the role of Herman. Natalie Wood in Marjorie Morningstar is the classic. But it was just so funny that they were just like, we'll accept Jews as long as they play all the other people that we don't want to hire. They play Spaniards. And then Wasps will play Jews. And Italians will play Wasps. It's all going to make sense.

It was very, very weird. There is a, there is a little bit of a thing right now. I mean, like,

do I, does it bother me? No, but it is a little odd that Melissa McCarthy played Lee Israel in that movie. Sure.

And she's phenomenal in that movie. Yes. But find me someone who's less of a Lee Israel than Melissa McCarthy. I think there are more egregious. Well, I have someone

who's less of a Lee Israel, Julianne Moore. Yeah, the original. The original casting. Oh, that's right. They were out of fire. They did the right thing. Yeah, 100%.

I mean, nothing against her personally. They were, she's a phenomenal actress. Ozzie Davis walked on set and said, do the right thing. And they were like, fine, let's fire her. They were a week away from filming. I auditioned for like a one-scene part

in the Julianne Moore, Hall of Center version, and they were like, and we'll have an answer for you soon because we start filming on Monday. Oh my god. And then on Sunday, the movie was shut down. But I was gonna say, I think they're more egregious examples. The one that irked me a bunch that I wouldn't stop complaining about last year, of course, Felicity Jones.

Neither does the word freedom. Oh. Your honor. Your honor. Yeah. You know, that movie was. Pass the man a shove. It's your honor.

Baruch Atadonai. It's time for women to be lawyers. Your honor. You got to end every sentence with your honor. But you got to go. Your honor. She's actually fine in the movie. But Natasha Lyonne is right there.

Right? Imagine her on the bench. Totally. Or here's another one. Lizzie Kaplan. Would have been a phenomenal choice. They were clearly going for the classic. Classic.

Let's get the Oscar winner. Nominee, not winner. Going through the servant's entrance. That movie was originally going to be, I mean, this is the weird the servant's entrance that movie was originally going to be I mean this is the weird Natalie Portman Natalie Portman

and Marielle Heller and then Marielle Heller takes over Mimi Leder is Jewish no I'm not complaining about Mimi Leder we love Mimi Leder I was just making

the connection I had a very nice cup of tea with her to discuss on the basis of sex congratulations I have no problems with Mimi Leder

I was just making the fun connection of Hall of Center gets fired from Can You Ever of how if Senator gets fired from Kenya, forgive me, Heller gets fired, right,

and swaps over. He's on the base, I didn't see on the base success yet, of sex yet. You're on. I saw the documentary about Ruth Bader Ginsburg

and I felt like that was enough. That documentary is arguably worse. Well, but Yas Queen. Yas Justice. Yeah, Yas Justice. Yas, you're on Justice and that movie was nominated

for Best Fight at the MTV Movie Awards do you know this? yeah a thing I will never stop talking about nominated Best Fight RBG versus Inequality

yeah it's funny I mean I whoever thought of that in the writers room deserved it but it lost to Captain Marvel versus Minerva Minerva?

that's the one yeah is Minerva Jude Law? because? That's the one they picked? Yeah. Is Minerva Jude Law? Because that was funny at the end. No, he was. Yeah, that was funny. That's one of the better things in Captain Marvel. Minerva is Gemma Chan, a character I do not remember having a fight with Captain Marvel.

What if she would have probably tussled for a second? She's a blue lady and apparently they had the best fight of the year. She's like Kate Hudson's hair in Pride Wars. Let me tell you something. She's blue! Let me tell you something. This is blue! Let me tell you something. This is going to be a good one. We got some heat this episode.

I'll tell you something about that Captain Marvel. Please. There were 23 Marvel movies? Uh-huh. Something in that range. That was either 22 or 23, I think. I mean, I sat there. I watched it.

I didn't yearn for death while it was on. I had an okay time. I thought you were going to say you didn't urinate. But I would put it in dead last. Dead last. Behind like the Incredibles Hulk or whatever. Yes. Iron Man 2.

Behind the Incredible Hulk because there's a scene in the Incredible Hulk where the Hulk is standing in the field in like the middle of Princeton University. It's like whatever. And there's like Marvel University. He looks like the poop monster from Dogma. He does. And there's like

a group of baddies who are, yeah, there's the bad guys. And they're trying to get him on one side and they try to get him on the other side and they like,

they try to like, they send like sound waves to attack him. Yeah. And it's just like, just these lines and it's just the cheapest

lamest dumbest thing but it works and somehow this became the biggest franchise in the history of I mean it's this hilarious

little like misshapen like you know child that's sort of like yes I too have been in the Marvel universe you know like

the core of all these like buff superheroes it's like don't forget about the Incredible Hulk. It's like when you read that like... It's a scene

in a soda factory. Right, the scene in a soda factory. That's better than anything in Captain Marvel. What's in Captain Marvel?

I remember one, she puts on a suit and it's a rainbow. Yeah, that sounds good. What do you got? There are like one or two things

I like in that movie. There's some stuff I... We will be re-watching it imminently. I didn't dislike it. It's certainly in my bottom rung. If I have more ire for it, it's because I usually like

Bowdoin Fleck so fucking much. The thing I like in it is Mendelssohn. That's why I like Captain Marvel. He's doing so much work. And I like Sam Jackson. Any Sam Jackson actual performance is fine to me. He drinks your so much work. Yeah. And I like Sam Jackson. And he drinks some milkshake. And he drinks some milkshake. Like, actual performance

is fine to me. He drinks your milkshake in that, right? And that's the same, wasn't there on the internet, it's the same milkshake from something? Don't you know

what I'm talking about? Yeah, I feel like that whole movie is just fucking Easter eggs. Remember when Sam Jackson was in other movies? Yeah, yeah, that's what it was. It was the milkshake

from Pulp Fiction. Yeah. Sure. Hey, you know what's a great movie? Melvin and Howard. Oh. Hey.

Oh. Oh. I will say this. I've gotten weirdly into Arsenio yelling, you know, from the 90s. Can I talk about the greatest thing? Sure. Did you guys see that? Weird that Arsenio wasn't in Captain Marvel.

Very weird. Very 90s guy to be in a movie. Did you folks see, it was circling around the internet yesterday, the thing where Arsenio Hall gave Paul Rubens the plaque. Do you know what I'm talking about? He's like in the black gang. Can I read this? Yes. Who's the woman in that picture?

It's the woman from Ruth Bader Ginsburg. It's the woman from Big Top Peewee. Valerie Golino from Hot Shots and Better Off Dead yes

can I talk about what's relevant this podcast about filmography is directed to a massive success early on in their careers giving a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby and this is a main series on the films of jonathan demme uh the uh title of which is stop making podcasts

which feels like a threat from our listeners they voted for that to be the title and it feels kind of like a little bit of a like you get it um you see and today we? And today we have hit the first great movie. And, you know, there are the times where I question briefly, momentarily, our commitment to trying to cover every movie in a director's filmography, especially when it's a long one like this. But the thing that makes it worth it is when you go straight from Last Embrace to this. You know, if you're cherry picking, you can see all their best movies and you can break them down

and you can make your insights. But there's something incredible about watching him, you know, make three Cormans. Sure. Then do like... Make a couple of sort of

pot shots at a genre. Right. You gotta get through hell before you get to heaven. Well, and it's like you're seeing like these little glimpses, these little pieces,

but those five movies in a row are all pretty far from great. They have good elements. They have moments of just like, ooh, there's something here. And then this movie is just a perfect little thing. It is just this like gem. I think that's the call.

That's the right call. Ben, when we were doing the Miyazaki episodes, was crying a lot, right? You would just be overcome with emotion at sometimes innocuous things in the film. Well, it's just it was the first time I was being exposed

to Miyazaki. And I was also sort of going through an existential crisis. Of course. So it was kind of a horrible thing to wrangle. That was coalescing those two things. Of course. So it was kind of a coalesce. What a horrible thing to wrangle that was. Coalescing those two things.

Crisis boys. Yeah. My point is there. But I was crying a lot, yes. Yes. There were several points in this movie where I almost started crying and not at emotional scenes. Just because how in a sort of Miyazaki way moved I was by the sort of observational beauty of the film. was by the sort of observational beauty of the film. You know, just like the actual spirit of the movie and how content the film is.

That's that Demi magic, right? It's a kind movie made by a kind person. Indeed. A man with universal reputation. There is a Pauline Kael line that is incredible that I was just like, that is the best I've ever seen someone encapsulate or sort of verbalize what the Demi thing is.

But yes, the other movies up until this point have brief glimpses of it. And this is the first time he makes a movie where that is sustained from beginning to end. And you cannot sort of believe how thoroughly he has bottled this sort of energy without it feeling manufactured or manipulated. I often do wonder because the script is – is it William Goldman or Bo Goldman?

I got my – Bo Goldman. Bo Goldman. Because when you watch the movie at the beginning, you have the sense that it's going to be classic new Hollywood, right? It's 80 – 80 came out in the 80s. 1980. So it's still shooting on the 70s.

Yeah. You're like, oh, is this going to be like the last detail? Is this going to be like, you know, road picture, you know, with some dark America? And you keep waiting for that dark turn to happen. Yeah. And it doesn't come. It's not new Hollywood at all. I mean, you can spin it that way marketing-wise, but it is a new new Hollywood.

This is not like Five Easy Pie pieces or whatever that kind of movie you know where it's like you know at the end of the day fuck America yeah and that's

and there were so many of those movies in the 70s that have a similar look and a similar setting yeah similar actors similar scale

similar actors 100% I mean what's the one it's all Harry and Tonto yeah which is a little nicer

because there's a cat in there but the cat dies no I mean, spoilers. And, you know, a lot of those, a lot of the movies from that time. And it does have a similar look. But at some point along the way, you're watching, oh, this is something totally different. Yes. It's about a man who believes in, like, the good in America, even though he's kind of like, you know, it's never really happening for him.

We're going to dig into it. Can I read this Pauline Kael line? Absolutely. This is after it opened the New York Film Festival. And everyone was like, wow, how great to see such a well-crafted commercial picture. Like this was viewed as like, obviously this is like populist popcorn fair. But of such excellent craft and integrity, which is crazy to think, right? Because this would be a fucking Bleeker Street release tomorrow.

I know, I know. But yeah, they are like, yeah, God, this consumer swill. But it's pretty good considering. Well, no, people were rapturous about it. But they were like, it is stunning that a studio comedy is this good. I think it's still in that. Because they were used to the new Hollywood. They still want a raging bull. There's the new Hollywood in that. Because they were used to the new Hollywood. They wanted a raging bull.

There's the new Hollywood movies that are very dark and intense and transgressive. And then there's the sort of like stately Oscar film, right? That's like a period epic or a true story or that kind of movie. Sidney Lumet's The Verdict was around the same time period.

I mean, I love that movie. Sure. But Pollock. The dark movies. What's his pants? Jewison. Those guys. Yes, but we're coming out of, right, the decade that changes everything where it goes from being a certain type of stately Oscar picture to now new Hollywood films.

These transgressive sort of radical countercultural films being successful with the Academy. And they're constantly being this tension between the two. There's a lot of tension. The 80s, they give a lot of cruddy movies. Here comes a movie that is neither but has the best qualities of both and also a whole other chunk of things you haven't seen before. What did Paul and K.L. have to say? Ready for this? Yeah.

Jonathan Demme's lyrical comedy, Melvin and Howard, which opened the New York Film Festival September 26th. Here's the line that sums up everything that Demme does well. Is an almost flawless act of sympathetic imagination. That is beautiful. Give it to me, Paul. Right? But that's the thing. You're like, that's the difference with him. Like, Dan Harmon once joked about

70s new Hollywood movies that they're about a drunk guy who wakes up, eats a sandwich, and takes a shit. And then the movie's over, right? Like, that's what Fat City is. And Fat City's a masterpiece. I love Fat City. It's a masterpiece. Fat City's great. Right? And that's the exact... Yeah, it's close. It's a perfect example of

like, a similar tactile feel to this film. Like, if you projected two on either wall and spun somebody around and said, look at these movies, you'd think they were... Right, they're the same movie. Yeah, they're the same. They're both about losers who keep on failing. Yeah.

And they're sort of efforts to try to hold on to the couple, human relationships in their life that matter, right? In like a kind of a rural world or like a trailer park world. Right, but one of them is very, you know, unsparing and cynical. And then the sympathetic imagination thing is, you know, demi-detractors, and I remember this coming up a lot when Rachel Getting Married came out,

incorrectly, right? People would go like, what wedding is like this? Come on, he wants to believe that it's this beautiful cultural melting pot and, you know, and it's this inclusive

and this and that and it's like, yeah, I want to believe that too. Sure. It's a sympathetic imagination. Get the fuck out of here. That's your argument?

Right, but like, I want to see a movie where people act better, you know? Like it's like, you know, it's the Paddington effect of like if you can do it with intelligence and actual observation, you know, and heart. I'd love to watch a movie where you commit your imagination not to imagining a sci-fi scenario but that we can live in a world that is this sort of kind, you know, and sweet, even when struggles happen, even when heartbreaks happen. And the beauty of this movie is this is a movie about a guy who is kind of addicted

to the abstract idea of the American dream. 100%. But also is not naive enough to think it's ever going to happen. Right. Well, that's the beautiful note. I think he's a little naive, but yes. I think he gets there. I mean, that's weirdly the arc of the film is him getting there.

But it's like an equal combination of this guy having bad luck and tough breaks and also this guy self-sabotaging in a number of ways. Because he's trying to like sort of hop the ladder rung. Totally. Yeah, exactly. He's trying to skip a few. Like so many people do all the time. He does buy a boat. That's the thing.

But like the buying a boat moment, it's kind of like, yeah, it's when people like buy a house because they're like, well, I should own a house because you're supposed to. And then like you can't afford it and you know, you go under or whatever.

We'll get to the boat moment, but it's one of the most heartbreaking moments in the film because the second he pulls up the boat, you're like, this guy's going to fuck it up again. Beyond that, you're like, oh, this is it.

Yes. We're going to like, this is it. This. We're gonna, like, this is it. He, he, he, this is the last straw for Mary Steenburgen, like, this is over. Can I read one other review thing, um, from, uh, Roger Ebert, and this is like

Ebert at his best, and, and the last line of this makes me choke up. Okay. I think this is just such beautiful uh, writing. And Ebert, of course, was like the big proponent of like cinema as an empathy machine. And Demi is like a great sort of embodiment of that ideal, right? He said, Hollywood started with the notion that the story of the mysterious Hughes will might make a good courtroom thriller. Well, maybe it could have.

But my hunch is that when they met Dumar, they had the good sense to realize they could get a better and certainly a funnier story out of what happened to him between the day he met Hughes and the day the will was discovered. And then here's the line. Dumar is the kind of guy who thinks they ought to make a movie out of his life. This time he was right. That's a great line. But that is – that's movie out of his life. This time, he was right. That's a great line. But that is, that's the spirit of the movie. This is the kind of guy who views every moment of his life as the first act in what will be the incredible story

of a man overcoming poverty, you know? Sure. Overcoming sort of being born and the business end of capitalism. Or it'll, yeah. Underneath the boot. Right. Who found a way to make business end of capitalism. Or it'll, yeah. Underneath the boot. Right. Who found a way to make himself out of clay. And it's a movie, it's like, you know, I think Karaszewski and Alexander often talk

about this film being a huge inspiration for them because it's the idea of like the biopic of sort of an ordinary or unexceptional person. But the thing that they've always done, which this movie I feel like is the first example, the earliest example I've ever seen of a film doing this correctly, is making a movie about a real person who most in history would view as a loser. And making the film with the sort of energy of how the person saw themselves. Not in a delusional way, but that they want to believe they were always one step away from greatness. And this becoming an incredible story of triumph. And that also just being the idea is like

that must have been what Howard saw in him. Totally. Because this movie is sort of like is just accepting that Howard wrote the will. Right.

Whereas like certainly Howard Hughes probably did not write the will. Who knows? But like this movie is like no, this is about the guy who Howard wrote the will to. Right.

So what would Howard have seen in that guy in their like one car ride? Well, it's about the guy who Howard wrote The Will to. So what would Howard have seen in that guy? And they're like one car ride. Well, it's a Chaplin thing. I mean, City Lights also. There are Chaplin elements to Melvin. I mean, he's not like a small, goofy guy. But he's sort of a, you know.

But he is kind of a little tramp. He's stuck in the giant gears of society. Right. And City Lights are modern times.. Right. And in City Lights – was it City Lights or Modern Times? Modern Times is the machinery City Lights. Which is the one where he befriends the rich guy but the rich guy only remembers him when he's drunk. That is City Lights because that's with the blind girl where she thinks he's the rich guy. Right, right, right.

So yeah, I mean there's a lot of that and I think that's what I think some of these critics were responding to. It's sort of a classic story that – classic cinematic story that was missing for a very long time. Yes, and coming out of a decade of so much cynicism, which was in response to a sort of like very rosy-eyed, whitewashed kind of happiness and positivity, you know, very cut-and-dry morality. Then you have a decade that, like, veers the opposite direction. Yeah, well, the Vietnam War and Watergate will do that to you. And so, like, Demi is, like, tip of the spear, top of a decade being, like, I have figured out my voice. I figured out who I am as a director. And it is to try to, like, incorporate the sort of, like, the grittiness, the versamilitude of the new Hollywood with a sort of classic Hollywood optimism.

But to make it rooted in something genuine. Right. It is gritty. I mean she is a stripper. Totally. Right. And like not happy about it. She's not like a, you know, a sex positive stripper.

She's like I have to work and this is the only work available to me. But it's still like. But also she loves dancing. She loves dancing. Yeah. She finds. She's like always have to work and this is the only work available to me but it's still like she loves dancing she's like always got a smile I mean she's kind of like goofy about it it's yeah she's just incredible Mary Steenburgen in this film they all are

it's like her second or third movie right because she does the the Nicholson discovers her going south is that what that one's called and then does she have anything in between going south and south? She was in Time After Time, Nicholson's main movie. Oh, right, where she then shacks up with Malcolm McDowell. Malcolm McDowell.

Isn't he in that movie as well? He is, yes. Yes, because she gets married to Malcolm McDowell. I want to think Somewhere in Time with Christopher Reeve. That's not what this is. This is Time After Time. You are correct that she was with Malcolm McDowell, married for 10 years. And she was also in something, time,

somewhere in time. Somewhere in time too? Right, isn't she? Double steam virgin, double time? Can I tell you my remembrance of the somewhere in time logline, even though I haven't seen it since probably the year you were born? Uh-huh. Christopher Reeve is like in a hotel in New Hampshire,

or someplace New England-y, you know, and it's nice. And he breaks up with his girlfriend and he's like, ah, this hotel is so nice. I wish I could have been here when this hotel first opened. And then like he gets a quarter and the quarter says the year 1912 on it. He's like, wow, 1912. And then suddenly he's in 1912. Wow. Yeah, that sounds right.

I don't know. I mean there's 1912 is mentioned suddenly he's in 1912. Wow. Yeah, that sounds right. I don't know. There's 1912 is mentioned in this Wikipedia page. Time after time is McDowell and Steenburgen. That's the Nicholas Meyer one. That's about Jack the Ripper. Yes. And they remade that as an ABC TV show like two years ago. Yeah.

Speaking of an ABC TV show. That was like weirdly popular but also canceled. Right. But uncanceled and then recanceled. Yeah. Here's what I was going to say. 17 subjects ago. Robards, three Oscar nominations, two wins, all within a four-year period.

All as an older man. Right, but it's 77. Yeah, yeah. 78. 77, 78, and like 81 if you're going by ceremony year. All three performances with less than 15 minutes of screen time. 78. 77, 78, and like 81, if you're going by ceremony year. All three performances with less than 15 minutes of screen time. Sure. A little firecracker.

There was something kind of incredible about a small amount of Jason Robards. It's kind of wild that he didn't get a Magnolia nomination. I guess Cruise sort of ate that position up. I think so. Yeah. Yeah, but he is phenomenal in Magnolia. He is. I mean, he is what that movie is, which is over the fucking top.

I love it. That's what he's being asked to do. Yeah. David, did you like Melvin and Howard? We heard from Griffin. I love Melvin and Howard. Have you seen it before? I think years and years and years.

Yeah, see, I had sort of the same thing. I had a very foggy memory of it. In my Oscar nerd teenager days, I was like, well, I should see the movie that Mary Steenburgen won for. I remember watching it and being like, I was like, well, I should see the movie that Mary Steenburgen won for. I remember watching it and being like, I don't get it. It's like, you know,

when you're a teenager, like no one's yelling, this is good. Like I'm not, you know, this seems so quiet and like, there's no like big moment.

I don't really get it. I think I probably watched it on cable while doing homework out of a sense of completion. Like I would hate homework so much that I would be like,

you have to either rent or record any movie that feels important for your movie knowledge, especially Oscar history, and watch them while you're doing homework so that doing homework

doesn't feel like a waste of time. No, why waste your time? That was my whole philosophical argument was doing homework is a waste of my time. I could be watching movies. When I was a teen, I thought of Demi as this guy

who had made this one great movie and then otherwise was more of a journeyman. Like, I don't think I took Demi especially serious. You like Silence of the Lambs and that's it. I mean, like, I like other movies, but, like, I feel like my teenage auteurist, you know, brain was not dialed in. Right, and, oh, he made all these weird, goofy comedies before making a serious

movie, but this is his real auteur run. Because Married to the Mob is another one that I just saw on TV, although that movie I liked a lot when I saw it. But 80 to 90 is this incredible tour run of comedies unlike anything that anyone's ever made. All right. Griffin, ask me if I've seen this movie before. Jordan, have you seen this movie before?

I have a funny story that might be of interest to your listeners. I would love to hear this story. It's not that grand of a story. I come into this room. This is a podcast. This is a new format. You, Griffin, you're a young man. I'm a young man.

I can see. You're sprinkling with energy and vitality and youth. Many of your listeners may not know what it was like to be a film fan back when I was a young lad. Sure. I grew up. Put in some like Godfather music. Yeah, yeah. A long time ago.

The Lower East Side of Monmouth County, New Jersey. Oh, boy. I can smell it. I grew up in the 1980s, right? And my family, my father was an early adapter to VCR technology in the early 1980s. Tell me what VCR stands for. At a time, video recording. Video cassette recorder.

Yeah, VCR, VHS. Now, we were a VHS family. We're not a Betamax family. At the time, my father was scowled, frowned upon, scorned. They threw rocks at him. I remember the neighbors, the Bernsteins. The Bears? No.

No, those are the Bernsteins. No, those are the Bernsteins. Marissa, was it Marissa? I don't know. No, no, it's Mama and Papa. Yeah, the Bernsteins down the block came to look at our VHS player and say, you didn't go beta? How many lines of resolution does this thing even have?

And my father said, who had been reading consumer reports for weeks at that point, said, I think VHS is the one. As a result, however, of us being a VCR family, my father refused to get cable. We have enough. Wow. He was like, this is it? This is the technology? He says, we have it. You have so much to rent. Who needs

HBO? History of cinema at your fingertips as long as your fingertips are scanning a blockbuster show. So, Dick, my father was big into recording movies off of Channel 7, not cable, right?

He would tape the ABC movie of the week, Sunday night, Monday night, Channel 9, the million dollar movie, the whole thing. So we had amassed a fairly substantial taped off of television, edited for television, so no swears, with the commercials intact if they were on late at night, blah, blah, blah. So here's the thing.

My father was like, oh, Melvin and Howard, what a picture, we're gonna tape it tonight on Channel 7, And he did. And then... This is like mid or late 80s at this point? It's a couple years after the movie came out. Yeah, he's 384. It was a recent classic. Yeah. Oh, I loved it in the theaters. Your mother and I saw it. I'd say it's a

scream. Howard views. Is it true? Is he lying? Who knows? So, we get Melvin and Howard on a brand new TDK VHS tape. Hell yeah. On the slow speed. That little weird triangle symbol.

Like an Illuminati symbol. Whatever the speed was that you would get more time. So the shittier quality, but the more time to maximize the dollars. Right. So here's the point I'm trying to make. We were a taping family. So we were always taping things. And you can get three movies on one VHS tape if they were

two hours or whatever it was. You could get three movies on there. The first movie was Melvin and Howard. The second one was either Airplane or Sleeper. Some comedy. Something that I watched 155 thousand times.

It was like a 70s gagamanic comedy. It was one of the movies that I loved and made me the dysfunctional man that I am today. The point I'm making is I watched that movie every day after school. Because you would just put that tape in and hit play. I would put that tape in and watch Bananas, Sleeper,

Monty Python, because I bought those. But Airplane. Blazing Saddles. Some 70s. A biggie. A biggie that I memorized. Let's call it, let's say Airplane. It probably was Airplane. Blazing Saddles. Blazing Saddles. Some 70s. A biggie. A biggie that I memorized. Let's call it, let's say Airplane. It probably was Airplane. Great movie.

So I go to watch Airplane every day after school because I have no friends. And I come home and the thing is this. I would have to rewind the tape to the beginning. Sure, sure. Because I'd just watched Airplane. Yeah. Rewind the building and now, see this thing you listeners don't know. I would then have

to fast forward. Melvin and Howard. Through Melvin and Howard to get to airplane. Yeah. Because we didn't, CD you hit forward, boom, track two. None of that. Yeah. Now with your streams, your Vimeo, you clickety clickety click. These millennials and their Vimeo.

It's ridiculous. You YouTube it to each other. Nonsense. Me, I'm in the trenches. The point I want to make to you, gentlemen, is I have seen- You had to walk 17 miles in the snow. I have seen the ending to Melvin and Howard five million times. I've seen the last two minutes of that film more than any other movie I'd ever seen. And it took me until maybe three years ago to actually watch the movie.

Wow. Wow. Yeah, see, my father loved this movie. And my father, an upcoming guest on the show, we have the episode banked. It's quite a barn burner. If you like monologues by Jewish men, we just got a great one. Right. It is a Spalding Gray-esque hour and a half

long monologue done by my father talking about Spalding Gray. It also will explain a lot of my brain. Yes, exactly. And also why we're friends. All of it. The similarities between you and my father,

the similarities between me and my father. We all talk about the evolution of New Line that Ben I think wanted to blow his brain. Yeah, Ben then calls us beta cocks. But my father talks about it in the episode that he was not a big movie guy despite working in the entertainment industry, which was sort of something he fell into and did not want to do after many other careers had failed him at that point. So I would always ask my dad what his favorite movies were because I only cared about movies. They were the only thing I wanted to talk about. I'm like, my dad works in the movie business.

He must love them. And he'd be like, eh, not really. But the movies he would tell me he loved were – I mean this is kind of my dad's favorite type of movie. Sure. Which is this very, very sort of seemingly slight, small, well-observed human story with just a little bit of an odd bent. And he would describe movies to me as a child where I'd go, what's that about? I'd go, Melvin Howard's probably one of my 10 favorite movies. What's that about?

And the way he would describe it to me would seem so odd that it would stick in my mind for years and years and years before I ever saw the movie. Bruce McLeod was another one like this where I'd go, what's the movie about? And he would say, it's about this guy who's just kind of a loser, and he picks up an old man on the side of the road, and it turns out to be Howard Hughes, and he leaves him $160 million. So I go, so the movie is about him getting really rich out of nowhere? And he was like, no, that happens at the very end. The movie is just kind of the guy

living his life and I would think I don't understand how that's a movie. So it must be good. That would be my takeaway when I was younger. That's what made it seem magical to me. I was like whatever happens in the middle stretch of that movie must be insane. Right, an incredible setup, an amazing ending. There must be something

so well executed because I don't understand how that can sustain 90 minutes, you know? And so it would hold this sort of mythical place in my brain of what is this movie? And it just sort of felt like I have in my head this sort of like the folklore version of it. Right, right. And it's a laugh a minute, you know, thrills and chills. Then you see it. It's kind of a shaggy dog thing. Well, I think I knew it must have been somewhat shaggy because, you know, the inciting incident then takes an hour and a half to play out where I was like, there aren't hijinks tied to the big hook of the movie.

In order for that movie to be that good, something has to be done so well in the area that you're not even describing to me. That's what was kind of magical about, I guess, was that he couldn't describe what happened in the whole middle chunk of the movie. It would be hard to describe. I mean, how would you describe it? It's like he just kind of does his thing. A guy lives a life. He lives his life. He's got the one wife and kids that falls apart.

He gets another wife eventually. He kind of tries to make it big a couple times. Sort of like brushes up against, you know, tiny bits of success. He's a good milkman for a little while. Right, good milkman. But like it's just vignette-y and sort of this and that. The other movie that's sort of like this for me

is Terms of Endearment, where I feel like everyone remembers the beginning. The end is humongous. Everyone watches that movie and is like, isn't this the movie about someone getting cancer and dying? And it's like, no. Only right at the end is it about that. She gets cancer in the last 10 minutes. Mostly it's just about her life. Mostly it's just about her life and it's a bunch of different relationships

she has. All these different things. Right. And it's like, well that's the real meat of the thing, but that's the hard thing to explain so everyone reduces it to what's the setup? Overbearing mother. What's the end? Cancer weepy. What's the setup? This beautiful sort of meeting between

a nothing man and a billionaire. And what's the end? He gets the will, you know? For like a second. But knowing that it'll never... But it's the same thing, and that's like you talk about what makes a good director, what makes a good screenplay, what makes a good performance. It's that all this stuff in the middle and the middle is 95 percent of the movie is so gripping and so engaging and so emotional and there's no way to explain why it is because it's all just done well.

It's well observed. It's done with like an incredible amount of intelligence and craft. And also has like weird twists that you go with it. Like, yeah, they're watching a game show and he's like, we should go on the game show. And then they go on the game show, which is which is based in fact. Right. That's that's in the Wikipedia page. But it is.

I mean, it's a stranger than than truth story than truth story of what – all the weird things this guy went through that he got married twice and the second time was in Vegas to his wife who had left him, got pregnant by another man. Is it good that I relate to this character? Oh, totally. I think you have to. You have to. I mean I think that's what – because I guess the ultimate cash-in on this movie is this is sort of the Bo Goldman blank check because he had done Cuckoo's Nest, won the Oscar. Screenwriter, you're saying. Right.

And I think this was his big pet project. He wins another Oscar for this screenplay. But I think much like Ebert guessed, this was such a big news story that probably everyone was thinking, how do you make a movie out of the lawsuit? How do you make a movie out of the trial? Right, and he ignored that. He ignored that. It's a title card at the end. It's still under contention, which it

was until like 2006. It was still being contested. I mean, someone wrote a book in the 90s. He sued again in the 2000s. He died just a year ago. The whole problem was there was never a real will. So they could just kind of like drag it out forever. This was the only thing that was even purporting

to be a Hughes will. And there were very compelling narratives on both sides which were, Hughes' people were saying, why would he leave it to this guy? This thing's riddled with spelling errors. It has a bunch of things that don't line up with his life. Why would he leave money to this guy? This is stuff that anyone could have researched in a book.

His wife had access to all these documents. She could have copied his signature, all this sort of stuff. And on Melvin's side, it's like these guys wanted that money for themselves. Right. They didn't want to give it up to some fucking guy who they never heard of before. I don't mean to stomp on the you know, the wonderful reality of this movie, but he definitely made the will up. The evidence against him is completely damning.

And there's no evidence that he would have written this book. Did you read about this book, though? That book is ludicrous. It's like the most insane circumstantial, like, well, this one guy kind of saw him go to the stands one time. Like, it's not very good. But also that Hughes had told other people about yeah

yeah sure maybe he met howard hughes yeah right why else would he have the idea to forge howard hughes's like howard hughes's will look i think he probably made the will up but that is the beauty of this movie which is like why not make a story about that being real that's that's what i love about this movie right yeah you don't really have to think about the real guys, real... This movie's about the guy who actually got this... That's what I just said a while ago.

I'm doing a little research here. I think Melvin himself was on Let's Make It. They changed it for the movie. It's not Let's Make a Deal. It's the Pathway to Riches or something like that. What's it called? Road to Riches? Easy Street?

Easy Street. Easy Street with a dollar sign instead of a Z. That's what it is. But I think he was literally on Let's Make a Deal or something like that. But I think he was on more than once or he was on multiple. I don't know. It's a great scheme game shows yes

there was a little stretch of my life when I thought game shows was my my window into fortune really yeah

I was on a game show which game show I was almost on Jeopardy okay and I would have been I was gonna guess you seem like you would

kill as a Jeopardy contestant I had a disaster of a time when because I made it past you got it's you don't just one does not simply walk into Jeopardy contestant. I had a disaster of a time because I made it past... One does not simply walk into Jeopardy. But I

screwed up. I could not remember John Grisham's name. John Grisham is not exactly an esoteric fella. Quite famous. And I could see his dumb books in my hand. You could feel the weight. It's like blue marble and then half the pages John Grish hand. I could see You could feel the weight. It's like blue marble and then half the pages

John Grisham. I saw what's, you know, friggin' Cruise in the firm with the poster running. You mean the greatest film of all time? Yeah. It's not that good, the firm. Hmm, interesting opinion. Get out. Out. I could not remember John Grisham's name and then I just

and then I was done and it knocked me out because to get past that round. That was in sort of the final audition round. Yeah, you had about a thousand. So wait, what game show were you on – and then I was done. And it knocked me out because to get past that round – That was in sort of the final audition round. Yeah, you had about a thousand. So wait, what game show were you on? Oh, I was on a show very relevant to this. I was on a show called the – what was the exact title? The – oh, fuck.

What was it called? The Great American Film Fanatic or something like that. The World's Biggest Film Fanatic or – It wasn't – was it the IFC? Yeah, IFC film fanatic or something like that. The world's biggest film fanatic. It wasn't, was it the IFC? Yeah, the Chris Gore hosted one? Oh,

I watched every episode of that. Yeah, well then you saw me. I definitely did. Yeah, I was in the first season and I won my semi-final. I won five grand and that's when I decided,

it was that night, I'm in Los Angeles and it was funny because I was, you know, I'm from New York and I'm from the New York, New York, I get it. And they flew me out to Los Angeles. And it was funny because I was, you know, I'm from New York. And I'm from the New York, New Jersey area.

And they flew me out to Los Angeles in February. It's cold in New York. And I was in an outdoor swimming pool in February. Wearing a boiler suit. Saying to myself, I'm having dreams here. LA. I'm going to conquer this town. Hollywood.

How am I going to do it? Game shows. So you really are a bit of a Melvin Dumont. So I won five grand because I did quite well. But then I lost the final round. And I'll tell you why. It's been, and you know this, I sometimes look askance at animated films. Not too into the cartoons.

Yeah, you don't like the baby movies. You're a bit of an Eddie Valiant. My favorite thing was last year, you making every film critic in the world, in New York at least, furious at you by insisting that Paddington 2 was an animated film. It was. It was an animated film. Paddington 2, because we were talking about

what's going to be the best animated film. You're like, I don't know, Paddington 2, it's a cartoon, right? People just kept being like, Jordan, I don't know Paddington 2 it's a cartoon right people just kept being like Jordan I feel like you're joking but it's not a cartoon I was not joking it's a cartoon it's not a real

bears don't talk bears don't friggin talk you don't you don't understand how many conversations like this I have to overhear

bears don't talk they don't friggin live in the train station they don't eat jelly sandwiches it's marmalade I think I think a bear would eat a jelly sandwich if you gave him one friggin' live in the train station. They don't eat jelly sandwiches. It's marmalade!

I think a bear would eat a jelly sandwich if you gave him one. I mean, they'll eat anything. If you take enough drugs, a bear will talk to you. Paddington 2 is an animated film, so it's for children, so it's not really my thing. My dad had the same thing when I took him to see The Muppets, and he went, so is that going to win Best Animated Film?

He's right! It's a cartoon! It's not! It's a cartoon! It's not! It's not a regular movie! Seriously? He could talk about this all day and I would always find it funny. Everything you say on this topic always gets me. Well, I mean, the thing is this. In my own defense, I forgot

that Paddington 2 had people in it. Right. I thought it was just talking bears. You initially forgot that, but then you just tripled down. You poured all had people in it. Right. I thought it was just talking bears. You initially forgot that, but then you just, you just tripled down. You poured all your money into it. Yeah, because everybody got annoyed. Exactly.

It was great. And I fully supported it. It's a great bit, 100 comedy points. All right. So, on the ultimate film fanatic, where I won $5,000,

but should have won 10. Yeah. I'd forgotten, I forgot a fact about Shrek. Which fact? Well, I mean do you associate Cameron Diaz with Shrek?

Of course I do. Her most famous role Princess Fiona. She's not in Shrek. She's in all of the fucking Shreks. It's a cartoon. She's not in it. This is true.

She went in a booth for like four hours and said some stupid lines. That's true. Very stupid lines. And then forgot about it. And now she, I'm supposed to remember that Cameron Diaz is in Shrek. Forgot about it and got like a $10 million check.

I remember. I believe she literally got $10 million for that movie. No. Yeah. That's absurd. For Shrek 2, they didn't have sequel deals in place. And Shrek 2, I believe Murphy, Myers, and Diaz each got $10 million. I'm telling you, Shrek 2, I believe, Murphy, Myers, and Diaz each got $10 million. I'm telling you,

Shrek 2 was a hit at the box office. It would have made the same exact gross had they replaced Cameron Diaz with anybody off the street. You are correct. $10 million apiece. Yeah. But that was...

They made $350,000 for the first film. Name an actress. Natasha Lyonne. If they put Natasha Lyonne in instead of... Ah, Shrek, come on. How much better? Anybody. You fucking old...

Put down that onion. She'd be a good Shrek. Get out of my swamp. She would be a good Shrek. Come on. It's just energetic dialogue they picked up. Mary Stainburgen. You put Mary Stainburgen instead of Cameron Diaz.

You give her $255,000. She'd be thrilled. Sure. That's a lot of money. $gen instead of Cameron Diaz. You give her $255,000. She'd be thrilled. Sure. That's a lot of money. $10 million for Cameron Diaz. Mary Stainburgen is married to Ted Danson, who's the richest man in the world. All right. You know, Pamela Reed is in Melvin and Howard.

Great. Yeah. She's great in the film. She plays the Mormon. He's holding up pieces of paper like this is a congressional hearing. Jordan is holding up the printout of the Melvin and Howard Wikipedia page. He's fucking Perry Mason. He's like, you'll see the record reflects she is in the film. Our first

guest to ever ask for a hard copy of Wikipedia. Well, I took notes and I left my computer at home. I had some prepared comments. I do love your argument that Jeffrey Katzenberg should have dropped at that point probably the single most bankable actress in Hollywood

and replaced her with Pamela Reed for the sequel. Absolutely. Bankable in my eye. Nobody gives a shit about her. They care about what the green monster looks like. Can I play devil's advocate here? Please. You have to remember that 2004,

Trek 2, is the peak of Jeffrey Katzenberg latching onto this idea of what if I cast the biggest stars to be in my movie? They only have to work a day, but then I make them do a full press tour. Right. They go on Leno. They did so much fucking promo.

And eventually they realized like people got burned out on that and they pull back on voice actors. But that year it was like they were promoting that like it was their. A real movie. Their passion project. A real movie. All three of them. It was in competition at the Cannes Film Festival. It was in competition.

The Quentin Tarantino year. The year Fahrenheit 9-11 wins. Maybe Shrek 2 should have won. Another stunning set. Another stunning set. At the time of its release, and for several years after, Shrek 2 was the third highest grossing film of all time.

Wasn't it the first movie to beat the Spider-Man opening weekend, I think? Or maybe it was the second movie to get over 100. But it was Titanic, then Star Wars, and then Shrek 2. Why does Shrek keep coming up? Donkey! Donkey!

We talked about it on Spirited Away. Shrek so weird I don't know that I saw Because we talked about it On Spirited Away Yeah Shrek-ke They're both cartoons I saw I don't know I saw the first Shrek

We should have had Jordan On every Miyazaki episode Not a fan I don't know It's a fucking toon Not a fan Princess Mononoke Give me a break

Go fly your castle Somewhere else lady There's an animated film That we almost went to see together You very kindly Invited me to a screening, but it was at 9 a.m. on a Saturday and I slept through it.

Did I? Yes, and it was, I believe, the one animated franchise you kind of have affinity for because we've talked about it before. Wait, let me guess. Sausage Party?

Hotel Transylvania. Oh, Hotel Transylvania is great. Thank you. That's a great movie. Because it's super Borscht-beldy. Yeah, it's not a real movie. But we bonded on that. You were like, yeah, that's the only cartoon I like.

I like Hotel Transylvania. It's monsters and they make vaudeville jokes. Great. It's fantastic. Did they make a third one? I think they did. They did. The third one's great.

I saw the first one. Arguably the best one. So I did very well on the second round of Ultimate Film Fanatic. You missed the Shrek. But it was the Shrek thing. Now, here's what's – How was the question posed? Do you remember what –

I do. I remember it exactly. And I have a little bit of a bone to pick with the producers of the show. Because what they did was, as you know, there's editing involved in entertainment. Maybe not on this show. Except for the Tick. Tick had no edits. So you know that.

It was all live, like that one episode of ER. Great episode. Every time someone pressed the button to stream it, I have to run back to the stages. On the Ultimate Film Fanatic, when they cut it together, they did make snips. So when there was something for this particular gag, the gag was called Cameron, Cameron, Cameron. And they put us all up in a line. Sure. And we had to name a film that was associated either with James Cameron, Cameron Crowe, or Cameron Diaz.

Sure. And it would go down the line. So you'd say Titanic, you know, Elizabethtown, something else. Gotcha. And I had run out. We were at the bottom. Yeah. And it was time to go to the fake movies, i.e. cartoons, i.e. Shrek.

So I had already said Charlie's Angels 2 full throttle. But I'd run out of Cameron Diaz movies. So you weren't feeling Minnesota. I bombed out on Cameron Diaz. And then the person next to me was like, Shrek. And I'm like, of course, Shrek. Our highest grossing film. It's a cartoon.

So the point is this, though. They edited it to make it watchable. So all the really deep cuts that I pulled out of my rear end. Your Last Supper. Yeah, I pulled out a lot of weird things for James Cameron. Well, I mean, how many weird movies are involved? She's the one. Yeah, I pulled in some nice ones.

Deep Diaz. Minnesota. I think I pulled in, you know, whatever. They didn't make the cut. So I look like some idiot. You look like a fucking moron. Who bombed out on Shrek. You're like, Charlie's Angels?

And they're like, uh, hello. So I had a little bit of a bum. But I did get five grand. And there were other great. I had to do a debate round where we had to pretend. I had to pretend that I didn't like Kill Bill. Oh, wow. They assigned you?

Yeah, maybe it's an NDA. It's also like 10 years ago. Yeah, but that feels like an SAT essay where you're just like... Pretend you don't like somebody. You didn't have to do the SAT essay, right? That came later. I did it. I think I did essays.

No, what changed? Something fucking changed. They added an essay portion. I don't know. The essay was the worst, though, because it's like you crack open your book and it'd be like, here's your thing that you have to defend. And you're like, I don't agree with this and I have 10 minutes? Right, right, right. That's how it was.

Because the producer took us aside. He's like, okay, these are our topics. You two. It's like, we're going to do Kill Bill. Either of you have an opinion on it? The guy looks at you and he's like, I love Kill Bill. He's like, okay, these are our topics. You too. It's like, we're going to do Kill Bill. Either of you have an opinion on the guy? He's like, I love Kill Bill.

It's like, great. Do you dislike it? I'm like, no, but I'll pretend I don't. I mean, I'm not the world's

biggest Kill Bill fan, but like I got up there. So actually, in honesty, it was good because I just, you got to get in their face. Yeah.

You know, if you just want to watch Mindless Violence, man, and watch somebody rip off all these Hong Kong films and sure, go rank Kill Bill, man.

Audience goes wild, and I win $5,000. The other contestants hated me because they thought I cheated. Right. And of the other, which I didn't do, because they have monitors. Yeah. I won't get into the how of it,

but they were also, it was Shrek and Donkey were the other two contestants. Right, right, it was Shrek and Donkey. So they didn't like the environment. But what's funny, I shouldn't really talk about this. There was, because this was a long time. This was like 15 years ago, right? Yeah.

I had lost touch with everybody else associated with this, but there's one other guy, the guy that I beat is like tangentially involved in the movie biz. And I know for a fact that he still holds a grudge against me. Really? Because it's gotten, oh, I met this dude. Like other film people have met this guy and it was like, that guy hates you.

And it's like, well, all right. Because I beat him in a game show in 2004. Yeah, it's pretty much Scott Derrickson. Yeah. Well, look. I love Scott Derrickson. Have you seen the remake

of The Day of the Arrested Still? No, is it good? No, it's absolutely awful. But you know, he did his best and we should applaud that. I like some of his movies. I don't mind his movies at all.

Oh, they're terrible. What has he made that's good? I like the one with Ethan Hawke. Sinister. Yeah, that one's all right. And yeah, Captain Strange is all right. Captain Strange is the best thing he did. Look, What's in the Attic.

If the movie's about What's in the Attic, I'm like, four stars. I owe a high ceiling for a movie about something in the attic. The best thing he did was Captain Strange because it's a Kevin Feige movie. You're getting the name wrong. It's Mr. Strange, PhD. Show some respect for his proper title. You know, it was Stranger Wits before he got to Ellis. That is my single favorite joke, is just saying blank was blankowitz before they got to Ellis Island.

Any goofy character name adding on a witz. Well, you're a witty man. I'm a witsy man. So, yeah, game shows. Game shows. That's why I really identify with Melvin. Can I tell you the one movie I've always wanted to see get made has been notoriously one of the great unmade scripts. get made has been like you know notoriously one of like the great unmade scripts

and as I've inched my way into this industry I'm like maybe I can like somehow get this made someday that feels sort of Melvin and Howard-y to me the press your luck story we talked about that on

I'm pretty sure we have no whammies the guy who like figured out the combination. Oh, yeah. But he was very much a Melvin Dumar character where he was like a loser who worked like sporadically as an ice cream truck driver. I'm pretty sure we have talked about this. I'm trying to build a bridge back to Melvin. I would just want to point out Emily Vanderwerf wrote a screenplay about that guy and it is fantastic.

Okay, because there's another screenplay that I've read. I would love to read that screenplay as well. Well, I thought of that story, and seeing this movie for the first time, I was like, oh, this would have just been an episode of This American Life or something. Right, right. This American Life did an episode on him recently, but you can watch the full run of his extra long episode. Of Press Your Luck Man.

Yes. But it was similarly – it was a guy who was like a loser who could never hold down a job and he sat at home every day and he figured out the combination of Press Your Luck so that he could never lose. And he was like, I'm going to go on and I'm only going to win by this much. So I keep on getting invited back and I can have the longest Ken Jennings-esque run. Yeah. And when he got there and for the first time he was winning at something and people were cheering him on, he couldn't walk away.

And so he kept on winning and winning and winning and winning and they weren't cutting the episode and they were like, fuck, this has been going on for an hour. We'll split it. Now it's three days worth of programming. And he went on for so long that in the control room they were like, he's figured it out. Wow. And so he got a portion of his money back. But then his life is sort of after Press Your Luck is very much like Melvin in the middle of this movie. He pressed his luck.

He pressed his luck and he made a bunch of money. But he kind of never figured out what to do with it. And he fell like prey to a bunch of scams. And he was just sort of this guy who like, you know, had his one moment of like glory. Yeah. And the rest of his life was just trying to find some way, some – I mean it's the Easy Street thing. It's beautiful that the fake game show is called Easy Street. Yeah.

Because it's like Melvin loves this idea of like – Scooting your way in. In America, you could always one door away from just hitting it. Well, you know, you remember King of Kong, right? The documentary about the Donkey Kong guys. Yeah. The oldest guy. Yeah.

That's another one. You know, that movie is so fascinating to me because there's clearly a hero and a villain. Yeah. If the villain wasn't in the movie, you would hate the hero. Because his baby, his toddler, his two-year-old kid has soiled himself or herself. And he's going, Daddy, I need a diaper change. He's there playing fucking Donkey Kong. Wait, I got to finish.

I got to get a kill screen. Right. It's all about the juxtaposition with him against Billy Mitchell who makes him look good. Right. But that's another – like here's another thing that's great about Melvin of Howard. And then we'll go, try to go through the plot as much as there is a plot because there are individual

things I want to talk about. Hey, scenes. Moments. But it is so telling that it's like, you have Dabney Coleman as like the asshole

in the movie, right? He's the judge. He's the splash of cold water where you're just like, fuck you, let me watch this charming film, let everyone succeed.

And he's got one scene. You know? This movie does not spend too much time with people doubting him. You know, you get the little voices of dissent. But that's not the world that he wants to live in. You know, he doesn't want to make a movie about the Billy Mitchells keeping the Steve Weebies down. Even when he's splitting up with his wife more than once, it's still like they clearly love one another. Totally. She's just gotta go.

And another great example, the Jack Cahill character, his supervisor at the milk delivery company, is like sometimes kind of a pill to him and is other times like kind of a likable guy and kind of relatable. He's still, like

yeah, you're the milkman of the month, but you also owe us money. Right. Like, yes, you know, we love you, but you busted a fender. And when he gets up and does his performance at, like, the Tiki Bar party, he's, like, enjoying it. He's laughing. Like, no one's, like, a straight antagonist in this film.

No, there's no villains. Right. It's just about, like, this is what life is like, ups and downs. I mean, we should start at the beginning because it is this sort of bravura thing of he's back with Tak Fujimoto. Yes. He does his very first movie, Caged Heat, doesn't do the next four, and then comes back for Last Embrace. Yes. And I feel like does a couple other major films in between.

Let me look at mine. Starts sort of working with more substantial people. Let me see what we got. Comes one of the greatest cinematographers of all time. Absolutely. Still alive. Very old. You know, he shot Death Race 2000.

Of course. He shot second unit photography on a little film called Star Wars. Never heard of it. I don't know that one. Is that true? You didn't know that? It is true, yes. I didn't know that.

Apart from that, not much. I mean, he's going to go on to shoot movies like Ferris Bueller. What else did he shoot? I mean, obviously he shot Pulp Fiction. He shot pretty much all of Demi's stuff later on. Wait, I'm making that up. He didn't shoot Pulp Fiction. Who shot Pulp Fiction? I thought it was him.

Am I wrong about this? But he also, he does like the four Shyamalans. He does signs. Yeah, he does a lot of Shyamalans. Oh, it's Andre Sekula. I don't know. I can't remember why I thought it was Tuck Fujimoto.

It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Never nominated for an Oscar. Yeah, it was weird. Really stupid. Despite shooting several Best Picture winners and nominees. despite shooting several Best Picture winners and nominees.

But this movie, this is like, you know, the first time Demi has like totally nailed down his visual style in concert with Fujimoto. Yeah. Which is there is something whimsical about it, but there's nothing painterly about it. It's very clean, you know? Yeah. And it's not overly sort of stylized in a sort of designed way. But it is a movie that is dealing with a slightly heightened reality. Yeah, and has weird music choices.

I mean it has Green's Clearwater Revival, which is a cliche now. But this was one of the first. And has satisfaction, which I have to imagine is maybe the first time someone's used satisfaction in a non-Rolling Stones movie. Right. But like, yeah, when Fortunate Son comes up, you're like, oh, this feels different because you can tell this is the first time someone's used it in a movie. Right. Whereas now you'd be like, ugh. Not the 27th after years of like it being in like Ford commercials and shit.

We get it. It's Vietnam. Isn't it weird though that you can sense the difference in energy of when like even though we're living in a future where we've seen this dropped in too many movies, that you can tell that this has the energy of, this is the first time that someone's put this to image. Well, yeah, watch the Suzy Q

Creedence Clearwater revival, Suzy Q in Apocalypse Now, has a weird energy to it still. It just has a different there's some electricity to it. But yeah, weird music choices, he always makes sort of weird,I mean, because, yeah, he—you know, I feel like the movie does not have an exaggerated color palette. But then Demi will always throw in these weird extreme splashes of color, whether it's a piece of set dressing or costuming or whatever it is. these beautiful shots out in the desert of Robards as Howard Hughes on his motorcycle which is

thoroughly homaged in The Master. Right. I mean, this is one of PTA's favorite movies of all time. Yeah. I mean, that's why he puts Robards in... PTA, listen to me. I mean, come on. I say his whole fucking name every time. Paul Thomas Anderson. Paul in Sleep.

I feel like I ran a mile. That's why he puts Robards in Magnolia. Yeah. And that's why there's a whole desert biking sequence between two men where they're dressed almost identical to this and the shots are so similar. There's that one beautiful shot where they're like tracking high speed with Howard on the motorcycle. And you don't understand how the camera is moving that fast. Right.

Or they're creating the illusion that the motorcycle is moving faster than it is. But he's always staying kind of perfectly in frame. It's just really crisp, clean, beautiful, well shot. And then he wipes out. And then you go to Melvin in like near pitch darkness. It's another choice I love of just like this stuff with Melvin driving is actually how dark it feels to be in a truck in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere where there's no civilization and no light. And when they get inside – when Howard gets inside, it gets a little brighter. But it's still like their hair is disappearing into the shadows.

Yeah, it does have that horror movie feel. Totally. Which also makes it so that there is a weird intimacy between them, because all you can really visually sort of handle is their two faces. They're like the two things popping out

in otherwise this abyss of darkness. And the fact that Howard at first is so completely unamused with this guy. Right. To the point of irritation. Right. It's not like he gets in and Howard is like, I want to know more about you. Right.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I'm a man of the people. It's not like immediately Melvin does something to endear himself to him. You know, it's like he's kind of being held hostage by this guy. Don't sing your song. I don't want to hear it. Right. He doesn't even want to get into the truck in the first place.

Right, right. He's such a fucking baby. Right. He's like bleeding on the side of the road as an old Beetlejuicy man. And, you know, like Melvin only finds him because he takes a piss. You know, like Melvin only finds him because he takes a piss. He happens to pull over in the right spot where this guy is just at the absolute edge of his range of vision with limited light. He can just make out this guy.

And so it's a coincidence that he pulls over at the right place. But it still defines him that he is so adamant about getting this guy into his truck. Because I think most people, I mean this is like like a defining Melvin, like sort of save the cat thing. Most people, if you tried to pick an old man off the side of the road who was bleeding and he said no and started flailing, they'd be like, you know what? Fuck you. You're on your own, dude. Right.

That's a good question. What would I do? If the guy was pushing back that hard, you know, I think a lot of people would. You want to believe, but a lot of people would just go like, if he wants to die here don't know right whatever that's a good point but melvin forces him in the truck yeah and forces him to sing santa souped up sleigh i mean that's what that's the true delight right yeah and this perfect michael cosum of like here's a guy who like barely has two quarters to rub together he writes a completely perfunctory Santa song and thinks this is 100% worth the investment of me

sending away my lyrics to a company that will write music for it because this is so clearly my meal ticket to the extent that presumably whatever deal that rinky dink company has would give them like 70% of the royalties for the song but he's like I have so much money I'm going to make off this fucking song that I got to do it.

And he's so proud of this song that not only does he want to sing it, but he wants to force. How would you? An old stranger, an old bleeding stranger to sing it with. And Robars just has so much fucking presence here. It's incredible. I think it's incredible work. Is so good at sort of just selling the ice very, very subtly starting to like crack and melt around his whole sort of heart.

Yes. Do you think the last scene, the bookend scene, is that fantasy? I think that's real. Okay. I think that's real. Yeah, I do. The whole movie is a fantasy. Oh, stop. In a good way. I think that's real. Yeah, I do.

The whole movie is a fantasy. Oh, stop. In a good way. I would not. I mean, I'm curious. I wonder if in the script that was in the opening. Oh, and they shot it and moved it. They were like, we kind of want to end with Howard again.

Right. His presence is so overwhelming. Because remember, there probably would have been, if CinemaScore was around in 1980, there probably would have been, I thought this movie was going to be about Howard Hughes. Totally. He's in it for two and a half minutes. Totally. Totally.

Right. But that poster, Melvin, in brackets, and Howard. Yeah. Right? It's like, yeah. Yeah. Do you have a favorite scene? My favorite scene is the game show.

That's like my favorite. That's like electrifying. Yeah. I love everything about it. Yeah. I love how he makes it not feel patronizing. Yeah. Which is sort of the magic of this movie, I would say.

Right? It never feels like it's looking down on its characters, on Mary, whatever her name is. Right. Linda. She actually, the shtick is that he's got the magic touch and he always knows what door to pick. Right. And then at the end, she doesn't listen to him and she still wins the money. Yes, she does. And he's got the magic touch and he always knows what door to pick and then at the end she doesn't listen to him and she still wins the money

and he's not mad at her like in another movie he would have like beat her and taken the money right I mean a horrible movie I'm not saying this movie

I'm saying you know because she showed up the man he's a dope he's a dope but he's a decent man sure but then he goes

and buys a boat because he's an idiot and a hat, too. A little boat hat. The movie's also about these seemingly innocuous, meaningless little choices that can actually change

the entire direction of your life. And nothing exemplifies that better than just three doors on a stage. You know? Well, right. That game show and the type, like the Let's Make a Deal type game shows, which are – like there's no skill whatsoever to them really.

His pride in I always pick the right door. Yeah, right. You know, it's total luck. It's not press your luck memorizing. At the very best, it's intuition. Right, right. There's no code to break. I also love – I mean I have to imagine – I don't – I can't think of any game show I have ever heard of that is like this game show

which starts out as a talent competition and only if the audience conglomeration of two game shows a gong show plus essentially like deal or no deal but at the time like let's make a deal but that sort of beauty of like you need to have

enough sort of talent to make it to the point where then it's arbitrary. It would be like if to get to the Showcase Showdown in The Price is Right you had to sing a song. Right. And Bob Barker would be, you have the prettiest voice. Come up stage. But it is like the honest truth of show business too where it's like you need to have a lot of ability and a lot of luck. And a lot of luck.

Right. You know, it's like you can be so skilled, but if you're not in the right place at the right time, you're Llewyn Davis. If you always pick the wrong door, you're Llewyn Davis. Sure, he's always going to pick the wrong door. But I also feel like when she starts tap dancing, there's a lot of movies that would like sort of drag out the humiliating part of it, like before the turn.

But instead it's just kind of like a gradual, like booze to murmurs to like them being into it you know what I mean and she liked it she loves to dance she never really makes fun of her here's another thing most movies would do she starts performing people are booing her you cut into a

really really tight close up you see her getting scared her eyes dart over to Melvin in the audience he like mouths something like you got this or gives her a nod. Exactly. And then she has like the Popeye like surge of confidence. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Right.

Which I would fear. Yeah, right. Right. How that would work. But it's like here she is dancing, doing a really dorky but earnest tap dance number to the song that she was stripping to. Yes. You know, five years earlier.

And she just so thoroughly believes in herself that eventually she wins the audience over. Her routine does not get specifically more complicated nor more impressive. It's just persistence. Which is a good microcosm for the movie. I love the kissing montage. They just got married. How's them for the movie? I love the kissing montage. Yeah.

It's very good. They just got married. Yes. And they're paying witnesses because it's Vegas, right? They got upsold on a bunch of details. I love it when the lady's like, it's $4 for the ceremony and $5 for the witnesses. Well, there's a beautiful moment, which is they offer the veil. Steenburgen's like, we can't afford the veil. And he whispers in her ear. you don't know what he says,

but presumably says something like, you know, baby, please, I'm going to take care of you. I'm your man. We can afford the veil. Add the veil onto the tab. And then he is not prepared for the 18 other charges that they have not told him about. The witness charge, you know, all these different things. So the witnesses are these old cockers, and one of them collapses because he doesn't have any oxygen.

Yeah. And so they're like, well, we're free for the afternoon. And they just become wedding witnesses. Yeah. They just got married. They should be off gallivanting. But they immediately have to make back the money they just spent on their second wedding. But the thing is they seem, the characters seem

just overjoyed that these other people's weddings. Yes. And when they kiss, you know, they smooch the, you know, and it gets a little Is this a thing, like kissing witnesses to this extent? I don't know. I mean, it gets a little like some of the dudes are like really into Mary Steenburgen and she, at one point she's like, alright buddy

take it easy. Her faces, every time she pulls away from a guy in that montage. Yeah. Her face in this whole movie. She's an incredible performer. It's almost underrated and she won an Oscar. I know. It's an amazing performance because she's annoyed

because clearly some dude is macking on her, to use a term. But she's also kind of like, she gets it. She's like, everybody's happy. This dude's turned on by me. Yeah. It's like, There's no adjective alive

to describe what is going on in this sequence. It's a masterpiece. It's incredible and a thing this movie does so well especially with the Steenburgen character and it's a thing I always love to see when movies have the confidence to go forward and the skill to pull it off is sort of the use

of ellipses in its storytelling where you will jump ahead and not know how much time has elapsed. And sort of like Mary Steenburgen – because you go from the truck ride and the defining moment which is Melvin giving him the loose change he has in his pocket, which feels to me – especially if you're going to make a movie in which you fully take Melvin at his word and believe that Howard saw something in him that made him want to leave one-sixteenth of his fortune to him. The answer is Howard was testing him. He was kind of curious. What's the character of this guy? This guy doesn't have two nickels to rub together.

Would he give me the one? And you go from that to him sneaking into bed in his trailer, which there's something so evocative of someone getting home at sunrise and getting into bed with someone who has been sleeping for hours and is about to wake up. It's such a specific sort of mood. and is about to wake up. Yeah. It's such a specific sort of mood. Yeah. And then, you know, 30 minutes later, maybe less,

she wakes up, sees the motorcycle being repossessed, and just grabs the daughter, the four important stuffed animals, and gets in the car. And it tells you everything, which is just like, this shit keeps happening, and she made some sort of promise to herself where she was like, the next time there's a repossession, I'm leaving. There's no thought.

You know, it's like automatic. I hear the repossession truck backing up and I'm out of here. And she's gone. You know, you see him freaking out about it. He wakes up. He runs after her. But then you cut to the two of them in a motel room, an asshole running out. And she's sitting there with tears streaming down her face and a black eye.

Right, right. And you don't know what happened in between. There's a lot you can infer. Sure. But you don't know if this is the guy she's been with for six months or a year or a week, how long she's been gone, if this is the only relationship she's had. You know? You don't know if this is an isolated incident or pattern. Yeah, they never mentioned him again.

Totally. And the daughter just says, I? They never mention him again. Totally. And the daughter just says, I want to be back with daddy. Right. And then later when she's pregnant, it's like 50-50 if he's a father. Totally. It's completely unknown. But the movie doesn't want to answer that question. He doesn't ask it really.

Because Melvin doesn't want the answer to that question. He says it on the phone. He's like, that better be my kid. Sure. But he knows if he actually gets into the nitty gritty of it, he's probably going to get an answer he hates. So he doesn't want to take out a calendar. You know? And there's like

just a beautiful, beautiful piece of direction, which is, you know, Steenburgen brings her into the bathroom, preps her to see her dad, is trying to assemble the sandwich as quickly as possible before the train takes off, which is like one of these like, it's a great way to test

an actor, but it's also a great way to make any scene more interesting, is give an actor a piece of business that they're putting 90% of their attention to while the dialogue is still important. She's trying to, like, you know, she's trying to give her daughter actual information on her life. Right, but she's also looking for mustard. 90% of the energy is spent on the mustard, you know? And that's a moment where you're like,

this is this person's third movie. This is a movie star. Like, this is an incredible actor. Sure, 100%. I mean, that's, I assume, why she ran away with the Oscar. But then you put the daughter on the train, and you hard cut to, and this is like when I almost started crying at this movie.

Just a sustained two shot of Melvin. She also won like every critic's award. Everything. She won everything. I mean she just like swept. Yes.

Sustained two shot of Melvin and the daughter in the trailer both wearing novelty sunglasses. Yes. Yes. And he's got a plate of bacon on top of a toaster and they're watching TV while eating breakfast. Yes. And he's got a plate of bacon on top of a toaster

and they're watching TV while eating breakfast. Yes. And it tells you everything. It tells you that this guy does not really know how to parent on his own, but what he does know how to do

is make her life fun, which she needs right now because he needs to sell to her that he's worth being with because she's been away for so long. And also, he can probably tell that she's been dealing with some bullshit with her mother. So here he is presenting, like, why is the plate on top of the toaster? Are they using that to heat the bacon?

Are they just, like, ignoring safety, you know? But also the idea of, like, hey, it's fun breakfast. We're wearing sunglasses and watching TV. I'm fun, Dad. They're watching something weird on TV, too, right? They're watching like a musician or something and they're kind of heckling him a little bit. But it tells you everything about how this guy is trying to reconnect with his daughter and the fact that it's working, but it's probably not sustainable. You know, another movie that it's like when we were talking earlier how it has a look and feel of New Hollywood.

It's like Alice doesn't live here anymore with none of the heartache, really. None of the bad news. I thought of Stroitzik. Stroitzik? I mean, I guess because they're out in a part of America you don't see too much in movies or that part of the world. Trying to get the American dream

and it all falling apart. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing is like. Chicken. There is. No, there's a chicken. There's a chicken. You made it sound like you were calling him a chicken. You chicken.

Who did Steve Mergen beat in the Oscars? I can give you the list. Yeah, 1980. Here we go. David is stretching out. Kathy Moriarty in Raging Bull. Great performance. Great performance.

Oh, yeah. She's good in that. Eileen Brennan in Private Benjamin. Great performance. Oh, yeah. She's good in that. Eileen Brennan in Private Benjamin. Great performance. Oh, shit. Wait, wait, wait, wait. She would have been supporting, though, right? Supporting.

This is supporting. Oh, dude. Yeah. Steenburgen got supporting. And then two movies I've never seen. Diana Scarred in Inside Moves. I have seen that. The Richard Donner movie with John Savage or whoever.

And Yves Le Goyen in Resurrection, the Ellen Burstyn movie. What is that? A woman enters the afterlife briefly after a car crash that kills her husband, but she survives and finds herself possessing strange powers. Who made that movie? That's a declared dead, but then back. Right. It's sort of like a media mask.

Daniel Petrie's made some good movies. He made a zillion movies back in the day. I mean, he made cocoon too. Wow. That is fuck with that. That is a fascinating category though, because steam virgin and Moriarty are both the like, Oh,

is this the next movie star? Yeah. There was so much buzz around Moriarty. If you read like all the reviews in the press at the time, and then she sort of like makes a couple of bad career choices, has a car accident and then disappears for like seven or eight years. If, if I'm in the voting booth and it's those five and it's Moriarty versus Steenburgen, that's a tough call.

It's a tough call. I think Steenburgen's – Yeah. I wouldn't because you know what? She would be my winner. She would be my winner because I'm a positive person. Raging Bulls is downer. I think that's part of it is that –

You know what my favorite line from Raging Bulls is? Tough watch. Yeah. Can I say it? You can say anything. Because I'm kind of a PG guy yeah you know I'm like

known for being family friendly even though you hate cartoons right that's true you know what's a good line in Raging Bull a movie that's like

beloved by cineasts and everyone around the world to win awards on your mother's cunt your mother's cunt

wow you remember that scene this is a office in place of business just want to remind you I have seen Raging Bull like one time

it's never what maybe twice I like it there's no beef with it I love Marty I've only seen it once too but it's such a tough watch

that I so rarely I'm like let me throw on the Raging Bull I've seen Raging Bull a bunch it's a good movie do you remember when they throw him

in the jail cell yeah that's the best scene and you know what he says? You mother's cunt! On your mother's content! Jordan, when this episode ends, Ben has to walk out

of the studio and sit at a desk with people who love her. It's a very interesting Oscar year. Sorry. Because

I never swear. David, you know me for a long time. PJ Hoffman. No, you really don't. I work blue very rarely. It's true. I'm actually realizing this about you. I never really David you know me For a long time PJ Hoffman You really do I work blue very rarely It's true I'm actually realizing

This about you I never really thought about it I don't work blue The winner of that year Of course Raging Bull lost To Ordinary People

Ordinary People Right and Jason Robards Loses to Timothy Hutton That's right Classic category for Oscars I mean They were giving Robards A third Oscar

No but a lot of people Were like fuck Is this his best performance yet? You read the reviews and they're like, goddammit, this is the best he's ever been with less than 10 minutes.

Sure, sure, sure. No, yeah, Hutton is a bit of category fraud. Judd Hirsch, also nominated, great performance by Judd Hirsch. Right, Hirsch might have been

my winner that year if you place Hutton where he belongs. But Hutton's very good. Yeah, but like, and I feel like Ordinary People, the beef on it is like, oh, fuck that movie. You know, it beat Raging Bull. Yeah, it's very good. Yeah, but like, and I feel like Ordinary People, the beef on it is like,

oh, fuck that movie. You know, it beat Raging Bull. Yeah, it's pretty good. It's really good and it's pretty revolutionary, which people don't give it credit for. Because like, that's just not a kind of movie

that existed. No. You know, this sort of like repressed therapy drama. Like, you know, this is all new territory. It's a great movie. Mary Tyler Moore is like,

Mary Tyler Moore is outrageously good. Phenomenal. Yeah. Did I take trick? Did I take trick? It's her best scene. But, um,

yeah, I mean, Raging Bull, but you know what? Well, here are the other nominees. Okay. Elephant Man,

which is one of those movies where you watch it and you're like, oh, this is his normal one, right? This is like his biopic. And you're like, oh no, there's like ants crawling.

This isn't that normal. You know, it's a Lynch movie. Great movie. Coal Miner's Daughter, which is a fabulous movie. That's so good. That's apted,

right? Yes. Yeah. Which is like, just so like raw and real and Sissy Spacek and Tommy Lee Jones are so incredible in it.

And fucking Levon Helms. Levon Helms. Yes. Insane in that movie. So good. And then Tess, the Polanski movie. Was that one of her best picture?

Oh, yeah. That thing was on her for like eight Oscars. It was huge. That movie is great. I mean. I haven't seen it. I'm not, you know, after my outburst earlier, I don't want to be the guy defending Polanski also.

No, I mean, yes. Look, objectively, a well-made movie. Yeah. Quite a choice for him to make that film at that moment in retrospect. Oh, God. Well, first of all, if you just saw Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, there's the – because it's true. Sharon Tate won.

Sharon Tate was the one who won. And there's the scene of her buying him the book. And it's gorgeous. Now, I, David, was just recently in the United Kingdom, which is an area I think you've been to once or twice. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. What?

What? Go on, Jordan. I'm sorry. I was in Cornwall. Lovely place. And that's where a lot of Tess is shot and set. It's rugged hills. And I was thinking.

It wasn't shot in the United States? He tried to set that up, but then there was some minor legal issue that prevented it. Bad tax revenge? Was it a minor legal issue? He could have done it in Nevada. Maybe Nevada. But anyhow,

the point I'm trying to make is I was just thinking about the movie Tess a lot. It's also super long. It's well over three hours. It's not my favorite movie. It was a big deal at the time. There's some other great movies that year, like The Stuntman is an incredible movie. Yeah.

Great Santini, another, you know, feelings movie. So wait, can I guess best supporting actor? And then, of course, the fucking Empire Strikes Back is that year, which fucking is great. It's got Darth Vader in it. Very good. Yoda. He's such a good actor, Darth Vader. And he enjoys his social life

quite a bit enjoys women on the younger side Cloud City so best supporting actor Cloud City yeah that's right best supporting actors Hutton Hirsch

Robards and then Michael O'Keefe the great Santini and John Hurt nope oh cause Hurt's lead you mean in the Elephant Man yes yes he's lead theyurt's lead. You mean in The Elephant Man? Yes, yes.

He's lead. They didn't nominate either of the great Elephant Man supporting performances. I was going to say, that's what I was going to think about.

No, they nominated Mr. Joe Pesci for Raging Bull. A fabulous performance. You know what's great about that? About his performance in that?

If you grew up around these parts, you know a lot of Italians. Italian-Americans. That's true. And they say... These are mean streets if you grew up around these parts, you know a lot of Italians, Italian-Americans. That's true. And they say— These are mean streets, if you grew up on the mean streets, as I did the mean streets of Greenwich Village. If you grew up in these raging bulls.

Yes. One of my favorite Italian expressions is you call somebody a fucking gavone. And gavone, I think, just means like slob or pig. I grew up in a neighborhood that was all, all Jews and Italians. There was nothing else. We were prejudiced against, I was trying to find the exact spelling,

prejudice against all not like, but like, so I have a, like, you know, a lot of Italians, a lot of Jews, nothing else.

Yeah. We were very, so I feel like I'm a little bit Italian. It was a pizza bagel neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah. Pizza bagels all day long. Yeah.

Um, and so I love that. I love the turn you, you gave on. Oh neighborhood. Yeah, yeah. Pizza bagels all day long. And so I love that. I love the term gavonne. Oh, yeah. And so my mother's best friend was like my aunt, but she wasn't really my aunt. And sometimes when I would come looking like a slob, she would say, my mother would say you look like a gavonne. So I always have great love. I'm not insulting you.

I'm telling you the hypothetical insult my mother would give you. Come on, John. Clean yourself up. You look like a Gavon. So I always have great love. I'm not insulting you. I'm telling you the hypothetical insult my mother would give you. Come on, Jordan. Clean yourself up. You look like a Gavon. But I love you. Here, let me give you a cookie. She gave me cookies all the time. I'm going to start doing that going like, my dad would call you a fucking moron right now.

I have nothing against you. My dad would say you're acting like a real fucking prick. But you never hear Gavon in the movies. No. fucking prick. So, but you never hear Gavon in the movies. No.

In Raging Bull, when Pesci is slamming Frank Vincent's head against the car door, he calls him a fucking Gavon. There you go. You know what you never hear in movies? Svacim. Yeah.

That's an even worse Italian insult. The actual translation of come here you fucking Svacim. Svacim. Yeah. That's an even worse Italian insult. The actual translation of your fucking svacim. Svacim is the semen that stays under your foreskin. Oh, boy. After the act of fornication. Oh, boy. So you call somebody that. It's no good.

But the Italians, they're great, you know? You know what you never hear anyone say in Italian movies? What's that? Go get your fucking shine box. You never hear it. I wish there was just like one movie with a good shine box scene. Frank Vincent has never been told to do that or told anyone to do that. Because if you grew up in New York City, you hear that on every street corner.

Someone telling someone else to go get their shine box. Hey, go get your shine yeah hey uh go get your sandbox over here on your left when was the last time you had uh your shoes shined well i wear stupid sneakers i i don't know i don't think i've ever done it are you a big shoe shine man have you have what was the last time you had your shoes shined and that's not a metaphor for some kind of sexual act i mean i do them myself you shoes? Yeah, I buy wax for my leather boots and every season I put them in the oven, warm them up.

No joke. Then I put on two coats. Ben's very into fashion. What about you, Dave? Never. I don't think I've ever done that. Do you do it ever? No.

Well, it's about sustainability. If you do that to your clothes, it will last longer and so therefore you'll be able to keep those boots, shoes, whatever in your life longer. It does look like such a pleasant ritual. Like anytime at an airport or a train station or any place where there's sort of like a Shushan guy off to the side with that like high leather chair. Yeah, yeah. You sit there like a king.

Right. I'm like this like feels like it would have the same sort of pleasures of a pedicure. I was going to say a lap dance, but all right. I'm more of a pedicure guy. I love a pedicure. I got a pedicure for the first time recently, and my toenails are so shiny. Ben, keep it in and go get your fucking shine box. That's funny.

Can you do that every time? Keep it in and go get your shine box Yeah sure And let's put it on a t-shirt Yeah right We're selling the mugs Do you ever play backgammon Cause you double it in backgammon

Really Yeah that's like the power move Double it Do you have to keep it in and double it Well it's in Could you push a chip And go like keep it in And double it

You could But it wouldn't make any sense I want to talk about Melvin and Howard in and double it. You could, but it wouldn't make any sense. I want to talk about Melvin and Howard, which is an American masterpiece. It's also nice, and I know this is just reality, but that they are constantly hovering around the outskirts of Vegas because

it is this city that represents this one good hand changes your life. Someone can go there and remake themselves in an afternoon. But, you know, Melvin has a work ethic, but he also has a sort of it's not arrogance,

but he has a sort of integrity. It's a resolute belief. Yeah, I think he just is like this will work and it's like when this'll work. And it's like, when he buys the boat, he's like, when people see that I have a nice boat, that's gonna pay out for me. That's gonna be

great. Right, he sticks to his guns. It's the same thing why he wants to be Milkman of the Month. He's like, I get a poster of my face. That's advertising you can't buy. He's just so into that concept of like, you know, it just takes one guy seeing your boat. And then he's like, oh, this guy's. But then he explains it or he's like, you don't understand.

This is how business works. I need to have a boat and a funny little hat. But when he sort of like holds up Jack Hayhole in the office and he's like, you don't understand. Like I owe you this money, but you can't hold that against me. I need to be milkman of the month right I'll still I'll owe you more

it need be right but don't fucking take me off that poster that's why I love this movie is that it should be a story where it's like the guy keeps fucking

you know getting in his own way right and he keeps fixating on these things that make no sense yeah and his wife eventually is like I can't with you anymore

and she leaves him takes the kids right and it should be like rock bottom and and then at the end of the movie he gets a check for 150 million dollars basically he gets a will you know right like the thing he thought would happen happens yeah that's why the movie's so mad and then a little bit of bad like when in the spotlight there's like some jerks come to the station and there's the guy with the gun yeah yeah i don't know know. Of course reality is still there. Right.

But I just love that that's what Demi and Bo Goldman think. Like this is what the guy would think his story is. But also it's the sort of self-awareness he has just in that final moment when the lawyers explain to him like, look, I mean today I think there are good takeaways from it. I mean I think the judge is going to do this, but we can do this. We can keep on fighting it. I'm ready to do it. That's sort of like maddening, like a lawyer outlining what the next six years of your life are going to look like.

But he's like, ultimately, I think we have a pathway. And he just sort of stares off into the middle distance and says like, Melvin Dumar is never going to get $156 million. But what's weird is that there is an opportunity in his face to make a little bit of a capitalization and make T-shirts, right? And there's like a T-shirt company that wants to do it. He doesn't want to do it. They're talking about he's booked for interview requests. He can write a book.

He can do all these things. And for some reason he turns it down, which is not true in reality because clearly he sold his life story to Goldman. Totally. But I think at the time that this movie was made, perhaps he was still fighting it in court. Right, right. They don't fully rule against him until a couple years later. Is that right?

I think that's right. I mean, it was protracted. He appeals it up. And then he writes a book. He sells the life rights. At this point, he had sold it, but I think he probably sold it based on the way they were going to frame the story. Who knows if he had sold it if it was the courtroom drama that anyone else would have made.

But that, of course, would be one way to do it where you have a courtroom and you unfold every sort of piece. You know, like a classic. Imagine if there were still milkmen. Well, because she gets cheese. I grew up. It's the cheese man. If there were still milkmen. I grew up. She gets cheese. I grew up in the United Kingdom. What? I already talked about this.

Wait, wait, wait. Great Britain? Great Britain. The greatest of all Britons? I guess so. I guess that was the idea. They united the kingdom. They did unite the kingdom in 1707.

Wow. Further united it in the 1800s. Didn't unite the seven. No, it's four. Call me Didn't unite the seven. No, it's four. Call me when you unite the seven, okay? It's more of a four. I mean, I guess if you rope in the Channel Islands, you could probably get it up to seven. You get Bermuda in there, the Falkland Islands.

I don't think he got the joke. Look, you got Great Britain, okay? You got Scotland. You got Wales. You got Ireland. Not the seven. Call me when you got Great Britain, okay? You got Scotland. You got Wales. You got Ireland. Not the seven. Call me when you got Green Lantern. Green Land or Green Lantern?

Green Lantern. You need him to unite the seven. Otherwise, you just got six. To complete my point, we had a milkman. From Treffordshire. No, that's not a place. From Shropshire. Shropshire is a place.

No, there was a milkman. He had a weird little electric van it was filled with bottles of milk you could also get orange juice he had various

other options from what kind of cow do you get orange juice I don't it's not like his job was like I only sell a thing that comes from a cow

he sold bottled drinks at the end of the day alright but no it was farm milk and you know you would like he would like leave it at your doorstep. He wouldn't even knock and you

would open your door and there would be the milk. And then you would put the empties out and like in the empties, you would put your order for your next order in a piece of paper. It's coming back though. The service is coming back. In Trenton, there's a company

that's piloting basically glass containers that are refillable that you can buy different products in. And then they come and they'll refill. And they come take them. They come take them. It's just like when I was a kid. We had the seltzer guy. Uber milk. It's Uber milk.

You know, didn't you have a seltzer guy? Like, we had a seltzer guy. I, to my great, did not. My father had a seltzer guy. I was jealous of the households that had the seltzer guy like we had a seltzer guy I to my great did not my father had a seltzer guy I was jealous of the the households that had the seltzer guy we never had

the big box I know with the 12 bottles it was fantastic why do you think I went over to Eddie Bleck's house every day after school because he had the seltzer

Eddie Eddie can I read this final line because I found it which final line the final line not the final line but the final line

of the scene with Melvin and the lawyer. Sure, of course. So the lawyers explain to him, like, look, we're winning, but this and this and that and that. I want you to just be aware. The family is going to fight this for years. They're going to siphon off money

through the lawyers so they don't have anything to give you. All this sort of stuff. And Melvin just cuts him off and says, I knew all that the day I found the will and Roger says you're kidding and Melvin says Melvin Dumar is never going to see 156

million dollars in fact he's never going to see a dime but Howard Hughes sang Melvin Dumar's song Howard Hughes sang Santa's souped up sleigh and the poeticism of that for me is he shifts into third person because he is saying I understand what this story was.

I now understand what movie I've been in. It's about the vision of Melvin Dumar could make $156 million at any moment. That that's the promise of the American dream. But I understand now in reality that never happens. There will always be some bottleneck. reality, that never happens. There will always be some bottleneck. Even if you open the right door, something's going to fuck you over because the powers that be are going to try to hold on to the wealth they have, right?

They won't let you just get a winning ticket like that. But then he shifts to what this story was really about was I had my victory at the beginning of this movie and I didn't even know it. Oh, yeah. You know? The poeticism of I didn't realize that it. You know? The poeticism of, I didn't realize that that was the sort of accomplishment I have always been waiting for. That I

was validated by this man eventually having his heart melt enough to sing my stupid song. Should that have been the last scene in the movie? Or were they right to do the bookend? I think it's the Titanic role. It's like you want to go back to the ship one more time. You want to see him. You want to see him one more time.

And it's such a sweet scene. And the performance is so good. And it's also morning. Yeah. It's like you've been through the whole night of the story. Right. And you have a final Steenburgen scene where they kiss after that. Even though he's married to Valerie.

But you want that sort of curtain call. Her scene on the phone too when she calls him after the story is so heartbreaking. Where you can see her sort of going like, should I have stayed with this guy? Right. But also realizing if I had stayed with him, it would have been for the wrong reasons. Yeah. And also. I couldn't have predicted this.

It's the same old story. It's going to be the same old story. Of course. But more importantly, she's really proud of him. Why? I mean, he didn't do anything. Yeah. But she's really proud of him. She's like, oh, I'm so proud of you. It's the same old story. It's going to be the same old story. Of course. But more importantly, she's really proud of him. Why? I mean, he didn't do anything. But she's really proud of him. She's like, oh, I'm so proud of you.

You're on TV. But it's almost like she's proud of him for willing this into existence. For being correct, you know? Not for doing anything. For living a righteous life. Yeah. Yeah. You know, for giving the guy the quarter or whatever.

Yeah. But you need kind of like, Steenburgen's been a little out of the movie because he's on to a second marriage, and you want Steenburgen to have a curtain call, and you want Melvin to have a curtain, Howard to have a curtain call, and even if it's like dramatically the movie is kind of over

when Melvin gets to that realization, you do want to sort of like close the ellipses on the two other things this movie's been about. And it's also nice that it's like that final moment they show of him letting, you know, Howard drive the car is, you know, you realize probably the closest pure moment of bonding

they had on that entire trip. And we weren't shown it the first time. Right, right, yeah. We weren't shown the one moment where they seemed totally simpatico without any resistance. It's a beautiful fucking movie. It's a great movie. Was it a box office hit?

I know it was a critical hit. It was not a box office hit. It made $4 million at the box office. If I adjust that up, it's, let's find out. I mean, was it a profitable film? Did it cost? I don't think it cost much money. I can't, I don't think anyone was hurt by this movie. It was a base hit. It was a single.

If you win Oscars, the studio is happy. It's a universal movie, I believe. I think it's the kind of like, you have fully proven yourself as a talent now. Everyone sees your value. You're gonna make a hit film. What did he do next? Swing shift. So that's what's fascinating, is it's like, the guy's got some juice, right, after like making five movies in five years. Basically.

Right? And then this is the six and he hits. You know? He gets on base. He gets people Oscars. Then he spends four years fighting with two movie stars over a movie, which I feel like he talks about as the one that he lost. Right. Like the one where he fully lost the battle and didn't get to make the movie he wanted to make, was overpowered.

That's a whole other podcast. Right. But you have a four-year gap, and then it's stop making sense and swing shift in the same year and then he's just back. Then it's every year another movie, another comedy, and most of them are hits and most of them get Oscar nominations if not wins. Leading up to Sons of the Lambs. Then it's a crazy run. Yeah, post swing shift is something wild.

Somebody in Cambodia, married to the mob and then a few years off to make Silence of the Lambs. It's a big movie. Yeah, big. Silence of the Lambs? Big one. You got a reverse blank check. I can't find a box office for this weekend. Box office just starts in 82. So this will be the last.

Okay, fuck. Can you find the box office, the top films of 1980? Of course. Is that what you got? Yeah. Oh, boy. He treats me so well, Jordan. The number one box office motion picture of 1980 is going to be Empire Strikes Back.

Correct. $209 million. But the question is what's second? But what was second? Oh, okay. Because this is always fun is like what movie was number two behind?

It's just one of those things when you're looking at the top ten and you're like, yeah, wow. Because it's like Star Wars is only is number two

as Smoking the Bandit and Return of the Jedi number two is Terms of Endearment. Sure. I love that the big g Jedi number two is Terms of Endearment. I love that, the big gulf number two. Okay, so the second highest grosser of 1980. Give me a clue. It made half of what Empire Strikes Back made.

It's $103 million. It's a comedy, a workplace comedy. Nine to five? Hey, very good. That's funny to just think like, oh, the number two movie of the year behind Star Wars is 9 to 5. 9 to 5. That's the only other movie that cracks $100 million. No, one other film.

What? One other film. This film, I didn't say the name, made $101 million for comedy. Wow, so close. Big duo. Is it Stir Crazy? Ah. I knew it was a prior Wilder. And everyone forgets it Stir Crazy? Ah. I knew it was a Pryor-Walder.

And everyone forgets that Stir Crazy was the biggest hit. That was their biggest box office success. I mean, yeah. I mean, I actually think my parents took me to see Stir Crazy. I was probably three. Stir Crazy. It's December 1980. Yeah.

Stir Crazy is fine. It's not that good. No, it's fascinating that I love Gene Wilder. He's one of my favorite actors ever. I think he and Pryor were really good together. None of those movies hold up. None of those movies hold up. The energy is fine and also Pryor's in like two scenes of it.

Number four is a comedy that we mentioned. Great movie. Today. $83 million. Did it come up in the Oscar context? No. It came up in a different context as a movie

we liked I always forget airplane is 80 and not 79 80 great movie even though like that's one of

those movies where even though half the jokes probably don't hold up it doesn't matter because there are 8 jokes a second it's right what's your favorite gag

in airplane boy that's tough I mean what's the first one that comes to mind the one that i always used to champion that is so minor and basically cannot it's you know very very dated is when they're doing the montage around the world of like other news uh people and there's the the guy like the african guy is like drumming on it and and then he guy, the African guy is drumming on a and then he turns around the camera and keeps drumming. It's such a tiny little joke that

you just sort of always forget about. I always love those kind of airplane jokes. The ones you're like, oh, right! The joke density in that movie is just unparalleled. I don't think there's another movie with that level of joke density. My favorite joke in Airplane is the drinking problem. That's the

greatest recurring joke. Every time he throws the drink in his face, I laugh. It's never not funny. No, jokes per capita. No, I've thought about this before. Ben, what's your favorite Airplane joke? Ben's texting. My favorite Airplane joke... I don't know. I haven't seen in a while. I like the drinking problem one.

It's very funny. Wow. I'm also. There's like some scene where there's the actor who's playing sort of like the homosexual character. And I just love. All his energy. Peter is really young.

All his moments of just like that chaotic energy stuff. Like the way. Leon's getting larger. The way he plays it throughout. Every time they go back to him, he's always like, it's just like it's that rhythm to the music of the jokes and it's just like very fast

and over the top. And his character's never introduced. Like, why is he here? Who invited him? What is he doing? His behavior is also kind of just accepted. I love it. No one objects to it. You know, the other thing that pushes the drinking problem over the edge for me, I am such a sucker for repetition. I find repetition so funny.

And the fact that they just do it so many fucking times. It's one of the reasons why Airplane is so good is there's so many good bits that are like they hit it three times or they hit it 12 times. You know, the knocking out the Hare Krishna at the airport. And surely you can't be serious. I mean, all these dumb jokes that this brings back. A hospital, what is it? It's a big building of patients, but that's not important right now. The phone bit of like hold the mayo when he's talking about all that stuff.

I mean, Nielsen is just outrageous. Every single thing Leslie Nielsen does in that movie deserves an Nobel Prize. We all know that Leslie N Leslie Nelson should have won Best Actor at the Academy Awards for The Naked Gun from the Fossil Police Squad, which is maybe the best

comedic performance in the history of cinema. But when you want to talk about joke density in films, Monty Python and the Holy Grail, joke

density, some of them are esoteric and strange. Holy Grail is just the same kind of thing. Life of Brian is, I think, a better movie,

but it doesn't have the same joke density. I've never been fond of it for that very reason. I'm like, oh, is he telling a story over here? Of all the Woody Allen love and death, not his most famous, but joke density. The most joke density. Really? Those early ones, yeah. Just constant.

That and Sleeper are the ones where every line is a joke. Take the Money and Run is the one I think about of just being like wall-to-wall jokes. Love and Death is just compacted. Take the money, they're all great. But, if you were to take the first half of the movie of what I'm about to say,

joke density, Raising Arizona. Right. Wow. The first 30 minutes of Raising Arizona has just crammed in there

and they're visual jokes. Can I make my controversial argument like yours but even further out there? Oh my God. I'm sitting down. First.

We've all been sitting down the entire time. First 30 minutes of Ishtar are as successfully joke dense as any movie ever made. Okay. But number five at the box office. Is Ishtar. Oh, right, right. No. In 1980.

I know it's not Ishtar. Okay. So Stir Crazy, Airplane. It made $70 million. Big grass. It's a sequel to, I think, a somewhat surprising success. Hmm. Oh, I know the answer.

I know the answer. The Road Warrior. Incorrect. Oh, shit. I don't know the answer. I mean, not a bad guess. Yeah. Okay.

Somewhat surprising. This is actually the year of Mad Max 1. But is it that type of sort of sequel explodes success or was the first one the surprise? No, the first one was the bigger one. Okay. Somewhat. But this one still did well. Somewhat surprised.

This is the kind of movie that if you took a 22-year-old, sat them down and said this movie existed, they would stare you in the face and say like there is absolutely no way that what you're talking about is true. Cannonball Run 2? Like think that but stupider. Is it a Burt? Huh? Is it a Burt? No? Is it a Burt? No, not Burt.

Is it that kind of movie star, though? You said it's a big star. He was a big star. I would argue a bigger star. Probably one of the ten most famous Hollywood stars in history. Jesus. Really? Right?

Yes. I think inarguable. It's not the Bad News Bears sequel, but is it something like that? Stupider. Stupider. Just keep digging down. All right, all right, all right. Hold on, because I can get stupid.

But the main star returns for the sequel. He does. The sequel has a major drop off from the first one. The first one made like 100 and this one made 70. I think everyone's happy. He was a big star already, but the movie was still a surprise. He had been a big star for 20 years. He'll be a big star for 30 more.

Is he still alive? 30 more. He is. Wow. He's old now. It's not a Bond. He's an old man. There was no Bond in 80s. No, no, no. Far stupider. It's not French Connection 2. No.

Although that's a comedy. And you know what? I'll tell you. Yeah. Like, Smokey and the Bandit 2 is number 8. You know, you have a couple. Cheech and Chong's next movie is number 16. I was going to say maybe 2, but it didn't really feel. Can you give me a genre? Is it a comedy? Yeah. Like an action comedy. It's an action I was going to say maybe, but I didn't really feel. Can you give me a genre? Is it a comedy? Yeah, like an action comedy.

It's an action comedy. Yeah. Stupid action comedy. It's a stupid action. 1980. Humongous star. I got to go. See you soon. Okay.

Ben has tapped out. Producer Rachel walking in. Sure. Cup of coffee. Perfect handoff. Rachel, just quickly, what's the fifth highest person film of 1980 cause we're struggling

over here okay nevermind look Rachel I'm trying to get them to guess this movie do you know this movie Rachel

okay so that's a clue to be fair have you heard of this the movie that is the original now we know it's not just called

Blah Blah Blah so it has a different title when you look at this poster do you think holy shit I can't believe this is a movie starring this person

and this thing Rachel's laughing hysterically and Rachel's pretty deadpan face turned red so Rachel's deadpan and she's busting up right now and you say that this actor

had been around for 20 years so he'd been around since the 60s 70s 50s late 50s I think 50s, I think. He's like middle-aged at this point. I mean, he's not a young whippersnapper.

It is funny that he made a movie on this subject and then it was a surprise success. I'd put his age around 50. He's like 50. Yeah. The story of the original one, apparently, it's a script that had been sort of passed around town and this actor saw it and was just like,

I think it's funny. Let's do it. What could it be? And it was a script that had been sort of passed around town and this actor saw it and was just like I think it's funny let's do it and it was a big hit and then they made a sequel that was the fifth highest grossing film of 1980 is Blake Edwards

involved in some way I don't think so over films like Private Benjamin yeah Coal Manor's Daughter Blue Lagoon Blues Brothers

Ordinary People Popeye big movie you know Urban Cowboy The Shining Friday the 13th. Was this the last film?

In this series? I believe so. I don't think they made a third. All right. Last question. Last clue. What year did the first one come out? 78.

So just recently. They're striking while the iron is hot. Is it a – boy. I'm thinking about how hard Rachel laughed. Can you believe this person was in a movie about this subject? It's someone that everybody knows. Everybody knows. Iconic.

Rachel, okay. To be clear, I was laughing at the poster. Of course, but I'm trying to think of a poster that has those elements. I cannot tell what the movie is about from the poster. Oh, I think I know exactly what it is. Here we go. Is it Oh God Part 2? Oh, damn it.

Incorrect. That felt close, right? Yeah, that would have been good. No. Oh, but you said the guy's still alive. What's the initials of the star? C-E. Charlie.

It's Clint Eastwood. Oh, always on by the Bumblebee movie. And of course, it is Any Which Way But Loose. It's Any Which Way You Can. Any Which Way You Can. The sequel to Every Bitch Which Way But Loose. Oh, you're right. You're right.

The movie where Clint Eastwood pals around with an orangutan and solves crimes. You're right. I feel like an asshole right now. A movie that I feel like the world's dumbest person. I mean, one of those things. Apparently, he saw the script for the first movie. He was like, it's funny. We'll do it.

And I guarantee you that was treated like Ted. Like, what the fuck are you doing? You're Clint Eastwood. I'm going to eat a cookie now. I'm so depressed. I mean, maybe up until that point, his highest grossing film. Probably. It's probably right up there for him.

The first one's better than the second. I believe you. The first one's pretty damn good. I always loved, like when I was like a kid and and was trying to understand film history and they would do montages or Clint Eastwood would get some Lifetime Achievement Award at the Golden Globes or whatever and they would play the clip, I'd be like, oh, that's the disaster that he's embarrassed of,

right? And my parents would be like, no, it was a huge hit and he defends it still. Wow. He loves it. He's like, that orangutan was hilarious. I was not allowed to watch that movie because my mother said it was too violent. He's like, that orangutan was hilarious. I was not allowed to watch that movie because my mother

said it was too violent. It's also like very sexual. Isn't there a ton of nudity in that movie? I feel like. No, it was the time. There was, I think you're thinking

of the gauntlet, I think. The orangutan never wears pants, right? Zing-a-ding-ding. No, but there is a lot of fighting. Bare knuckle brawl.

Right. Because it's wrong. In Fresno. They're in downtown Fresno. Weird thing. Bakersfield or someplace like that. Man, maybe I should reboot that franchise.

What's his character name in that movie? Clyde. Oh, that's the orangutan. The orangutan is Clyde. What's Eastwood's name in that film? Let me look it up. I want to be the Mutt Williams of any which way. Philo Beddo. Oh, boy. I don't know. Oh, yes. Ruth Gordon plays a character

called Zenobia in this. Yeah, I mean, yes. Of course she does. I don't know. Oh, yes. Ruth Gordon plays a character called Zenobia in this. I mean, yes, of course she does. I even remember him like in the 90s doing interviews and they'd be like, any chance you ever like round out the trilogy? He should. Clyde might be too old, but I'd love to finish the story. He should do it. He should make, The Mule should not be his last film. It should be.

It's definitely not his last film. Richard Jewell, he's already in production on a movie that will be finished in five minutes. You're telling me Clyde over Sully? Sully? Well, he's not in Sully. I'm saying he's an actor. He's in Sully. He's just guiding. Every phrase. His thumbprint.

Masterpiece. I love Sully. Oh, yeah, please. This is a Sully safe zone. I love Sully. You're kidding me? I have not ridden on an airplane since Sully came to work. I have not thought about every moment of that movie. I, you know, I've said a lot of things on this podcast that I regret. I've grown five years of my development as a man and my mind and all these things. Cultures changed around us.

You know, I believe in total transparency, but there are things I would scrub from history if I could. Yeah, remember earlier when I used the C word really loudly? I'm really hoping that gets— A bunch of times. Could you hear that out in the offices, Rachel? What, you guys yelling? Good. Yeah.

No, okay, good. They didn't hear it. So yeah, things you'd like to scrub from your history. The number one greatest embarrassment in the history of this podcast for me is that Sully was not in my top 10 that year. Wow. Very embarrassing.

Because I gave Tom Hanks the win for best actor, and I left Sully at like 11 or 12. And that was shame. And I admitted it was a masterpiece. I said, Sully, five letters that spell America. But I still said, it's not worthy of making the ten. And I'm sure— What was in that year that you got a good read?

Look, I'm sure my top five was solid. But at the very least, Sully should have been somewhere between five and ten. It is my number ten. And I guarantee you there are some fucking Tony respectable movies that I genuinely like less than Sully but I put in there because of the groundswell. Yeah. Or like some Michael Haneke movie. Yeah. Yeah.

I guarantee you there's something like that. Whereas Sully should have been all ten spots on my list that year. It is the movie I watched so much. I've seen it's something like that. Whereas Sully should have been all ten spots on my list that year. It is the movie I watch so much. I've seen it five or six times. I've watched it so many times. It's so good. It's a forced water. It is a forced water.

My in-laws, who are marvelous people but are in their late 70s, early 80s, they come and look after our cat, my wife and I, when we go to places like the United Kingdom. And every time we come back, I see that my DVD of Sully has moved. DVD in that 4K? I have it in 4K. I think it's actually, it's not even a Blu-ray. Wow, because beautiful 4K. It's a screener. It's a demo disc.

When you work in the industry, you get a screener. I got a Sully screener and I upgraded because I needed full resolution. I needed Sully with extended color spectrum. My father-in-law, one time I asked him upgraded because I needed full resolution. Correct. I needed Sully with extended color spectrum. My father-in-law, one time I asked him because I noticed that this was like on Sully move three. And he's like, oh, you watch Sully. He's like, yeah. They really handed it to that Sully, didn't they?

They really gave him a hard time. Good. They really gave him a hard time. They really put him through the ringer. They put him through the ringer. They put him through the ringer, that Sully. But heer. They put him through the ringer, that's Sully. But he pulled through. He pulled through.

It was a miracle. It was a miracle on the Hudson. That movie. All right, can we get serious now? Yes. Well, we love Melvin and Howard. We love Melvin and Howard. When you guys announced Demi X amount of time, you know, a long time ago.

Even when I think it was still in the voting for March Madness, you put your hand on the ringer immediately. I said if Demi wins, and it was Demi versus who? Well, it was against 31 other directors, but it boiled down to eventually him and George Miller.

And I had no interest in George Miller. I mean, he's fine. Road Warrior, whatever. The Great Humongous, whatever his name is. Thunderdome. What's the Great Humongous?

I don't think the studio is the Thunderdome. The Lord Humongous. I would have gladly accepted an invitation, but I wasn't going to demand to come of the studio as the Thunderdome. The Lord Humongous. Toast the Noah. I would have gladly accepted an invitation, but I wasn't going to demand to come on the show. No, I understand. You were a perfect fit for Melvin and Howard, and we had a great time talking about it. And we printed out a Wikipedia page for you, and you're going to take it home.

I'm a little upset. I mean, I love meeting— Producer Rachel. Producer Rachel. I'm sad that Ben had to go. Me too. A very nice guy. You know, he made me a cup of coffee.

He's a great guy. What a mensch. He's a great guy. What a mensch. He's a mensch. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thank you to Andrew Aguda for our social media. Thank you to Lane Montgomery for our theme song. Joe Bone and Pat Reynolds for our artwork.

Thank you to producer Rachel for jumping in at the last minute. Because Ben's got to take care of Ben. Go to tpublic.com for some real nerdy shirts. Go to blankies.reddit.com for some real nerdy shirts. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to our Patreon for blank check special features where what? I mean, we must be coming up

on the end game now. We might be at Captain Marvel by the time this comes out, perchance. Jeez, let me do my math here. Our next episode will be Spider-Man Far From Home. We'll be done. We're about to end it.

Our end game of talking about these movies. Tune in next week for our very illegal, illicit contraband episode on Swing Shift. And as always, our guest today is Jordan Hoffman. I did not introduce him at any point in the podcast. God damn it. Is that true? Yes. It's true.

We could record. Well, this is it. No, this is it. Any credits I want to make? I mean, that's kind of classic. It's kind of sliding. I think so, too. Save the best for last.

And you don't have something you urgently need to plug right now. You don't have the Star Trek podcast anymore. I'm not here to plug. I'm here to be amongst my peers and my loved ones. You know, sometimes people are on the podcast and they've got to get their thing out. They've got a book or they've got a thing. My thing needs to go back in. It does not need to go out.

Yeah, Lulu Wong muscling her way in. Weaponizing our podcast to promote her movie. No, I mean, I am not. Definitely not us begging her to be on our podcast for 45 minutes. I would like to say this. Okay. I worked a little blue on this episode. I feel bad.

You should not feel bad. I don't like swearing. Hey, this podcast is so blue. Sometimes people mistake us for Kate Hudson in Pride Wars. Oh. is so blue. Sometimes people mistake us for Kate Hudson in Pride Wars. Oh! Okay, I got the quote. David? Yeah? You got two lines. Oh, great. They're short. First one is,

depends on what it is. And the second one is, no. This does have a wild tagline if you wanted to do the really old-fashioned. Oh, boy. You want me to be Robards? Yes.

Be my Robards. I'm not seeing the tagline. What's the tagline you got? Yeah, this poster doesn't have it. Right, I got this poster here with just them at the chapel. Which is, I think... It's not the good poster.

It's still an arresting poster. Yeah. I can't deny, like, I kind of want to know what's going on here. The DVD cover's terrible. Yeah.

Where it's like, Yeah. I mean, I get it. Yeah. No, but it looks, it looks like that movie

which are Deferred You and Katherine Heigl. Yeah, it looks like the bucket list. It looks like some weird old grandpa movie, you know? Oh,

this, I see this one. Poor Melvin. All he wants is being milkman of the month. So he lost his job, his truck, and his wife. Then Howard Hughes left him $156 million. No, left him a podcast. Yeah, okay. I'm gonna do

the thing I wanted to do. Depends on what it is and no. Okay, go ahead. Ready? Okay. Okay, ready? Now, listen, buddy. You wanna do me a favor? Depends on what it is. I host this podcast. No! buddy, you want to do me a favor? Uh, depends on what it is. I host this podcast. No!

Well, you blew your cue there. You were laughing too hard. All right, who cares? The whole point is that he's so... All right, whatever. He cuts them off. This is your thing. I wasn't prepared for this. Take two.

Fine.