Blank Check with Griffin & David - Miller's Crossing with Ari Aster

Episode Date: July 27, 2025

It’s a movie about hats, and a movie about giving folks the high hat. It’s also a movie about how Jon Polito is the greatest actor in the world. It’s Miller’s Crossing! Filmmaker Ari Aster (go see Eddington!)  joins Griffin and David to discuss the Coen Brothers’ knotty homage to the gangster genre, a film overloaded with memorable characters and witty lines of dialogue. We’re doing a deep-dive on Gabriel Byrne, litigating Marcia Gay Harden’s surprise Oscar win for Pollock, and once again examining the Coens’ body of work through the lens of Jewish identity. Don't watch Tino's Dick Fart Read Faber Screenplay Books Check out Straight Time See Eddington Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your  pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Blackjack with Griffin and David Blackjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blackjack Talking about friendship, I'm talking about character, I'm talking about... Hell, Leo, I ain't embarrassed to use the word. I'm talking about character. I'm talking about, hell, Leo, I ain't embarrassed to use the word. I'm talking about podcasts. What's the word you're replacing that? Ethics. Ethics. It's the opening line of the movie.

That's Polito. Yeah. I'm gonna give you the hi-hat. No, I'm not. I was trying to see if there was a, hi-hat is my favorite thing in this movie. I think people need to say that more. I think it needs to be said all the time.

Right, right. Or I need to give people the. I think it needs to be said all the time. Right. Right. Or I need to give people the hi-hat more and tell them I'm doing so. But I feel like you actually can only say, are you giving me the hi-hat? No, I think we need to be doing it and saying it. I think you're right that you can't tell someone else you're giving them the hi-hat.

You can accuse someone else of giving you the hi-hat, and you can give someone else the hi-hat. But you can never call it before you do it. Lex G. always talks about getting the hi-hat and you can give someone else the hi-hat, but you can never call it before you do it. Lex G always talks about getting the hi-hat, which is why he's one of our finest film critics. One of, not number one. I was trying to find a hi-hat quote. Yeah, sure. But it's mostly just him screaming, are you giving me the hi-hat? Or like you're giving me the hi-hat. Yeah.

Yeah. Drawing. Keep going. Last time we drawed... Are you giving me the high hat or like you're giving me the high hat? Yeah. Yeah drawing Keep going last time we jawed what calling women twists. Yes, that's something that they do in this movie My stomach is seized. Hmm. I like everything he says. I think he's a good man of good character. Yeah He's kind of a nightmare. No No, no, no good man. Good character and he's letting you know from the beginning, it's about ethics. It's about ethics. It's about ethics in game journalism. That's what this movie's about, right?

No. Miller's Crossing isn't about ethics in game journalism? I don't think so. I think it is. Do you think the Coens have played video games and you can talk? I guess. It's fine. You can weigh in on this.

They do have kids. They have children. I'm mostly here to listen. I just want to... That's fine. It's time for you to take a step back. They have kids, so they probably played a video game. That's all he is.

Yeah. Have the... Have the Cones played a video game? You're doing that as a Google? Do you think you could do a Miller's Crossing video game? Pretty fun. Like that video game where you were the guy from Mad Men and you would guess that people are lying?

Or was it, it was like a gangster video game? Oh, L.A. Noire. Yeah. I thought you were describing a Mad Men and you would guess if people are lying? Or was it, it was like a gangster video game. Oh, L.A. Noire. Yeah. I thought you were describing a Mad Men video game. Yeah, a guy would be like, uh, yeah, I know, I didn't see nothing. And you would like press X and be like, you're lying, you piece of shit or whatever.

Like that was the game. Yes. They should do that when you're expressing. Those games that are basically like cut scene shoes, your own adventures. I never play any of these, but I'm like, this just looks like you're watching a bad animated movie. Basically.

Yeah, but you're telling me you're gaming. Are you giving me the high hat right now? Yeah, I'm giving you the high hat. Can you fucking introduce the plug? Hey, don't give me the high hat. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies

and ethics in game journalism. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Baby, this is a mini-series on the films of Joel and Ethan Cohen. It is called, Pod Country for Old Cast.

Today we're talking about Miller's Crossing. Kind of. Well, we said, Raising Arizona is their guarantor. I think so, Raising Arizona is the big hit. Raising Arizona gets them this movie, don't you think? Like, they can't make a movie at this scale. With Blood Simple. Yeah.

With Blood Simple, because that was also a huge hit. And that, well, I mean, it was a huge sleeper hit. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. For a film that cost basically nothing. And then Raising Arizona was like kind of a proper hit. Like, you know, people really went to see it and obviously it was well regarded or whatever. But they talk about how they were chasing Raising Arizona for a while because there was the feeling of, are these guys ever going to make a profitable movie again?

And this is the start of them releasing a run of incredibly well-reviewed movies that don't make money. Right. It's this, Barton and Hudsucker all kind of don't do well. Well, they don't cost much either. They don't. They're smart about that. Hudsucker costs a lot. It's like they're Joel Silver, you know, $40 million. Can you imagine? I mean, it's Hudsucker for me is maybe the one I've seen the most. It's my favorite. I love it. I love it very, very much. I would never argue it's the best. And part of it being my favorite is just that every time I watch it, I go, I can't believe they got to make this. I would say from a directorial standpoint, it might be the high point. It's up there with their most beautifully realized films. Yes.

I feel like their entire, well, I really like almost all of their movies, but that 90s Miller, starting with this, all the way to Lebowski, there's never like a foot wrong visually. There's never really a foot wrong at all. No, although this is Sonnenfeld and then Deakins comes right after this.

And there's a big difference between, I would say, the looks of those films. Yes, and there's this sort of notable like shift, gear shift sort of thing to Deakins coming in. Every time the camera rushes in this one, you're like, Perry, gear shift sort of thing to Deakins coming in. Every time the camera rushes in this one, you're like, Perry! We're going for autumnal.

He's like, I wanna run the camera one more time. Let me just fucking run it out of. It just feels like they're trying to push Sonnenfeld toward what they ultimately would do with Deakins. Deakins is giving them more of the class. Right, but you still got the evil dead impulses with the careening camera, which they only do once or twice. Once here, I think.

I think it's only once. It's just with the screaming and always put what in the head, and going into... I forget the wrestler's name. Oh, the ape? Is that what they call him? The big guy. I also forget his name. It's boxing, isn't it? It's not wrestling. I'm thinking of Barton Fink now, but yeah.

Right, the Wallace Berry wrestling pitcher. I'm gonna admit transparently, cause I got a bunch of plot stuff wrong on Blood Simple, which our listeners have been haranguing me for. I'm not even gonna pretend I can recount the actual inner workings of this movie. This movie, I think this movie is simpler than Blood Simple. Maybe I'm not even gonna pretend I can recount the actual inner workings of this movie. I think this movie's simpler than Blood Simple. Maybe I'm wrong.

I've seen this movie a lot too. It's got more characters. It has more characters. And more names that you have to memorize. Like, you know. You're right. Rug Daniels, you've got one shot. Right.

Well, you got one scene. You got one scene with Rug. The moment at the end where Gabriel Byrne clears up who shot Rug Daniels and why is real like Dashiell Hammett stuff where it's like, by the way, we know that wasn't just totally like a plot dead end. We do know why that happened.

Which is something they love doing. No, I mean, I think the magic of this movie for me is that it is really clear and easy to track the character story within this movie. Even though every scene is them discussing deep inner workings of a thing I can barely get my head around. I understand what every character's doing. But it's pretty, it's basically just this side and this side and one guy kind of flipping. Well that's what I'm saying. I understand that.

I'm not sure how well I understand Mink. Well, sometimes Ari, a man loves a man. I don't mean to. Go on. No, it is funny how Mink just swoops in and he has that one incredible run of dialogue and you basically never see him again, but you hear about him a bunch and his his body is vital you hear him over the phone

He's right and his dead body is a vital plot plus but that's it's I want to see him with with the Dane I want to see you know what that really they get up to behind closed doors Miller's crossing side equal with is Jay Freeman still alive? I don't know no not that's you I try I watch this with captions on as I'm want to do and they could not keep up with minx dialogue Yeah, they just started dropping every other sentence because they're like we're not even gonna attempt to do this Bushemi can do the the red a tat. Yes. This is the first First well, it's only their third movie. I know, but it still feels like he comes on screen

and you're like, this is a guy they've been working with for centuries. But he's a brand, he's kind of brand new. Like Mystery Trains the year before, I think of his first big movie as Parting Glances, right? That's 86. Sure. What year is New York Stories?

When was In the Soup? In the Soup, great movie, is, when is In the Soup? When was In the Soup? In the Soup, great movie, is, when is In the Soup? When's In the Soup? It's 92, so it's after this. New York Stories is 89, so the year before. The same year as Mystery Train, and yeah, those are the two big. I just feel like all of these like-

Slaves of New York, the James Ivory movie, which I have never seen. Never seen. The rare James Ivory being like, can we do a contemporary movie in the 80s? No one watches. And he's like, fine, get the dresses out. We'll do another one of those. It just feels like this entire like spat of early Boo Semi one scene performance movies, he just arrives and everyone is like, oh, cool.

I know what to do with this guy was just fully formed. It's like this guy has ultimate utility. Hit the ground running our guest today talking about Miller's Crossing is Ari Aster director of Eddington and Theaters Now. Eddington and Theaters Now. Eddington and Theaters and that is the full title right? Eddington and Theaters Now.

Eddington and Theaters Now. Yeah. Hereditary Midsommar, Bo's Afraid. I don't know. Ari Aster is here. Tino's Dick Fart. Oh yeah? Was that a short film?

Yeah. What's it, can you repeat the title? Tino's Dick Fart. That's a good title. I'm in it. You're in it, were you the titular dick fart? No, no, no. But I, it's a product and I use it.

Okay. God. You're a customer. Yeah. Oh, it's like, oh, it's, but it's one of those, you have, I'm watching it, just sorry to tell you, but it's one of the squeezy bulb things here that I use to suck snot out of my children's noses

is a crucial part of the movie. But you can also put it into your dick. That makes it fun. Anyway. No, that's a good credit. That's a very good credit. I don't actually want people looking for this. I don't know.

A couple years ago, we've you've long been a white whale to get on the show. And there are episodes we had talked about in the past. And a couple years ago, I don't know if you remember this, but Marie, producer on the show, and I ran into you and we're talking to you and you said, I only want to do a movie if it's a movie I have memorized. And I said, give me some examples of movies just in case we ever get to them. And I believe what you said was anything by Hanukkah, anything by the Coen brothers.

And I think the third was Scorsese. Does that sound right? You definitely love Marty Scorsese. Um, yeah, well, I'm not sure. I don't remember saying that, but all of those sound... The pics make sense. ...more or less right to me. I love all those filmmakers. This is a movie that I have more or less memorized.

I wasn't able to rewatch it last night, which I intended to do. So it's a little rustier than I wish I was. I had no able to rewatch it last night, which I intended to do. So it's a little rustier than I wish I was. I had no fear. You've memorized this one. You have in your head. Yeah. Yeah, this one's important to me,

but those guys make sense to me too, as people that you could talk me into doing this for, especially while I'm like- In press mode. In press mode, which is not a mode that I tend to. Before you go back into hibernation, press hibernation. Yeah, I mean, I fucking hate it.

But I'm, you know, I was gonna say I'm happy to be here. I don't know, that also strikes me as not quite sincere, but I, it could be worse, I guess that's I feel like that's how you feel being here you're like I could be there's worse places I could be at least in press mode it could be worse and right and I and I I'm happy to just to have the opportunity to say publicly that I love Miller's Crossing I mean it's important stance to take in this day and age. It would be really funny if you came on and you were like, Miller's, it's kind of a C minus.

Yeah. Like not my fave Coens. What's your history with them? Do you remember what the first movie of theirs you would have seen would be? Yeah. What's your Coens sort of, right, yeah, like what would have been the first theater Coens? I don't know. I think the first one I saw was, I think it was actually just on television. I think I saw it pretty young. I think I was like 10.

And I saw Raising Arizona. And that for me was like, whoa, what the hell is this? Immediately locked down. Yeah. Just like, this is a language that, you know, like I haven't heard before, but like I speaking to me. And I kind of watched them all from there. I mean, I mean, you're my age. Like I feel like we were both too young to have seen Fargo in theaters probably.

Yeah, but I was aware of it because I loved the poster. Yes. Loved that like embroidered. Yeah, the the homespun mystery poster. And also that was a movie that was at the Oscars and Francis won. And I remember my mom, me being like, what's that?

And my mom being like, you know, it's hard to explain Fargo. But almost every episode talking about Billy Crystal cut into Fargo. Oh sure. As a child being like, what is this movie? But I don't think I saw it co-entering theater until Oh Brother, this is a point I've made.

Same for me. Big Lebowski was rated 18 in the UK. He grew up in England. I did see, I think the first one in theaters was Lebowski for me. And I think it was because my dad thought it was so funny. And then my mom, and so he recommended it to my mom. And then she took me, was it 98?

So I guess I would have been 12. Yeah. So Fargo did come out when I was 10, which is I think around the time I saw Raising Arizona, which makes sense that I would have kind of like. And is this general early for you kind of like, I'm starting to understand what the director does, I wanna like watch a movie and then see more by X person

versus just watch movies. I can't trace exactly when those things were. I do remember, I would say the first time I like really became hyper aware of the director was when I watched Goodfellas when I was really young as well. And I remember just thinking like what makes this feel different than other movies? Like who, you know, what's he doing that's different? Cause this feels, I didn't, you know, I obviously didn't have like, you know, I didn't have the language for it or, you know, but I just could see that somebody was doing something

behind the scenes that was making this different. Raising Arizona, as you said, is the same, and you locked in on that. Same thing, and at that point, you know, I would have been still addicted to cartoons, and it's like, whoa, this is... It's a straight line. They're creating an on-ramp for you to... Yeah, totally.

Yeah, just making these cartoon, like, miniature worlds. Wait, who's your cartoon guy? Yeah, let's get into this. This is important. Who's my cartoon guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, someone points a gun at you, you and it's like you have to make a feature adaptation of a cartoon character And let's be clear the gun they're pointing at you is a big cartoon gun It's got a big work in it. They shoot it a flag will come out. That's a bang

You know, it's like Daffy Duck Woody woodpecker. I don't know Freaking Wile E. Coyote, whatever. Oh my guys, or do you maybe you don't have a guy So you're doing WTF we have to prep you for this by asking who your tune guys. Well, I'm talking about myself as a little kid watching Raising Arizona. So I guess let's just go, let's like take a little time machine back to 1996

or whatever it was. And I'm watching Rocko's Modern Life, I'm watching Red and Stimpy. I'm still watching the Rugrats. Yeah. Yeah, they're getting a little... They're getting a little whatever. Yeah, I... Crusty around the edges, those Rugrats, but they were okay.

I just feel like... I'm still identifying with Chuckie Finster, though. I was gonna guess that. I didn't want to autocomplete. Yeah, a little bit of Angelica. Rocco also has some bow energy. Like, character to character. I think there's a, Rocco also has some bow energy. Like character to character. I think there's a little Rocco, the way Rocco engages with the modern life around him.

There's some Ren and Stimpy in there too. Yeah. But Rocco's modern life has one joke that I identified as like, that's my humor when I was really young, which was the episode where Heffer becomes convinced that, you know, that, what is it? I'm not sure what the chicken place is.

It's... It's Chokey Chicken. I can't remember, but something chicken is people. Chewy chicken, initially called Chokey Chicken. Okay. Chewy chicken is people, chewy chicken is people. So like the Swirling Green. The Swirling Green.

Okay. Yeah. And then, and so he, you know, he comes out screaming that, and then there's like a family of chickens Chewy chicken is people. Chewy chicken is people. The Swinland Green. The Swinland Green. Yeah. And so he comes out screaming that and then there's like a family of chickens going up the stairs. And they're like, well, that's a relief. And I go, well, I just remember really. That's a good guy.

That's a good guy. That's a good guy. I remember just, that had me laughing for like 10 minutes. I was a really stupid kid. But I, so. No, no, that's not sophisticated. Yeah. We grew up in a perfect era for that of, you know, cartoon.

Like that was the, we had it best. I really think we had it best. Well, the Nicktoon Revolution was... Stuff was just slipping by. You also basically doubled the amount of cartoons that were being made because of cable, right? We need stuff. Like, we gotta fill hours.

So much of the story behind cartoons was still us watching the things our parents grew up on and suddenly there's this wave of like cable channels making new shows and Nickelodeon in particular pulled a bunch of like underground cartoonists and were like, just do your thing. So you had these shows that were, if not subversive, at least were quietly kind of like for their own entertainment, which then could transmit a signal directly to the type of kid who'd be like, I get this, this is doing something different.

That's, I mean, it's the thing I feel like we talk about on this show all the time, but that feeling of watching something when you're young and going like, why is this different? The way you're describing watching Goodfellas, it has to be the person who made this because this is doing something different than anything else I've ever seen.

But so then, all right, Millers Crossing, when do you get to Millers Crossing? I watched this in college for sure. Like I don't, you know, I had long, you know, I'd seen Bunch of Coens or whatever by the time I finally rented this on Lovefilm and watched it on my college like 10 inch TV. I think this is the last one I saw,

not counting like new releases that came out after I saw it. In my going backwards in Coens, I think they played this at Film Forum some point in the last 10 years, and it was my blind spot. And I also had only seen it the one time before rewatching last night versus every other Coens movie.

Oh really, so this isn't a big one for you. I feel like I've seen five times. I love it. I was kind of surprised when I put it on why haven't I rewatched this because all their other movies are movies I tend to throw on if I can't fall asleep and this one I just never go back to Well, this was this was an early one for me. This was really early like as I was first Digging in this was one of the first movies that I that I digging in, this was one of the first movies that I rented of theirs. And I remember this is around the time

that I also was obsessed with Goodfellas and this came out the same year. This is the year of the big three gangster movies. This is overshadowed by that. Although, and it makes sense because, you know, Goodfellas is the best movie ever made. I agree. But then- I agree.

But this is one of the best movies ever made. I was completely. Blown away, and this is a film I just kept rewatching and, you know, and I was a kid who, you know, I was a fat kid with like a debilitating stutter. So, you know, I keep hearing about these kids who are making super eight movies with their friends. Right. But, you know, what do you do when you have no friends? And so I, instead of making movies,

I just like wrote scripts. And this was one of the scripts that I was completely obsessed with. Would you get your hands on scripts to see like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I was printing scripts from like, from the internet, like Drew's Scriptorama. And their scripts are, I feel like unique, right?

Simply scripts, you know? Simply scripts, sure. But like, don't the Coens kind of write their scripts more narratively or what? I feel like there's some approach they have that's not typical. Oh, the Coens? Yeah. No, the Coens, they write them as like pros.

They don't do like, I think they do do interior, da da da, but they are, you know, they're literate. Well, they're literary in a way. And this film especially because, you know, I mean, the dialogue is just is so musical and so beautiful and has such like rhythm to it. And obviously, you know, the film is like something between pastiche and homage. And it's specifically got its sights on

Dashiell Hammett. But one of the first scripts I bought was one of the first script books I bought was this and Barton Fink's screenplay, published together with the Roderick Jaynes introduction. We have that somewhere here. There's a third one in there, I think, as well. No, it's just those two.

Okay. It's just those two, the Faber published. The Clapper cover. Those were the best. If you were collecting scripts, the Faber series was were the best if you were if you were if you were collecting scripts the favor Series was you know was absolutely the best is it titled as like collected Cohen screenplays volume one No, no, no, yeah, I know what you're thinking about that came later, but then there's no volume two There's a volume one. That's three of them together that I got recently and then volume two never happens.

Is that right? I mean, Faber published like almost all of them. They started doing them solo. And they did, yeah, they did the man who wasn't there again with another Roderick Jaynes intro, which those are the funniest. Roderick Jaynes of course is their editor, who is them. Who is them?

Although I think they didn't start doing that until, is it Barton? Like they initially, or like Miller's Crossing was edited by somebody else, right? It was Michael Miller. Right, Barton Fink is Roderick James. So that's where, but is Raising Arizona, did they edit that one themselves?

I'm gonna check. No, Michael Miller is their, right, is their editor on that one too? Yeah, so, but Roderick James, famously they wanted to dress Albert Finney up as him one year when he was nominated, maybe for Fargo, they were nominated under that, and they were like, we're gonna put out

Albert Finney in a costume and have him like sit there. I don't think it actually happened. Who's the guy they use for? They have like a photo. For Forever Young films. Oh yes. Which he shows up for Bled Simple and he goes, Forever Young, Forever Young films? Oh, yes. Which he shows up for Blood Simple and he goes, forever young, forever young.

Yeah. Uh, they've used him a few times. It's there, absolutely. Yeah, it's, that guy is so funny. So funny. When you're young and you're reading a script and trying to, like, pull the math from it to be able to apply to learn how to write your own scripts. What are the, are there things you remember

latching onto or observing and engaging with it in that format? Well, you know, I mean, the film is like, you know, famous for its labyrinthine plotting, which was so complicated that they had to take a break from it to write Barton Fink. Cause they got confused. Most productive writer's block of all time, yeah.

Yeah, but when I first started writing screenplays and like kind of obsessively reading them, I was just obsessed with dialogue writing. And so I was really into, you know, David Mamet, Patty Chayefsky and the Coens really. And there were a lot of other screenwriters that like still, that meant a lot to me. Like, you know, I was really into Paul Schrader

when I was young and I was really, and I got into Bergman pretty young and I really loved his screenplays and, you know, and Kenneth Lonergan, who's still maybe the best dialogue writer, you know, like living. I'm with you on that. I was looking at his IMDB the other day,

because I was like, how few credits does Lonergan actually have? There's the early run of him getting the credit on Analyze This, which he says they basically totally rewrote. Right, and he showed up for Gangs of New York. Yes. He's sole credit screenwriter on Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle, which is incredible. No one else gets credit on that.

But the thing I always forget is he wrote two episodes of Doug. Going back to Nicktoons, which makes a ton of sense. Yep. He wrote series four. He was in the writers room for that one, I guess. I don't know. Doug, a tough protagonist to write for. I think a lot of them are animated by Porkchop. That's really who he dug in.

And his plays, you know, are incredible. His plays are incredible. I read his plays obsessively in high school, I think in a similar way of just being like, what is this and how does he do this? I've also talked about this, but this is our youth, was revived in London when I was a teenager as this like rolling like thing with celebrities. Yes.

Like it was for the initial cast was Hayden Christensen, Anna Paquin, and Jake Gyllenhaal, but then they would just bring in all these other young, hot American actors. I found one the other day. I have the Pope, Damon did it, which is bizarre. He was way too old to be doing it. Freddie Prinze Jr. and Chris Klein did it together. Yeah.

And like, it's- What are the worst titles for anything? This Is Our Youth is a bad title. This Is Our Youth is a very, very bad title. I'm sure he regrets that title a little bit, right? and then the two of them kind of kind of combined it together. Yeah. And like, one of the worst titles for anything. This is our youth is a very, very bad title. I'm sure he regrets that title a little bit, right? It's a very good play.

Yes. With a horrendous title. That's another thing. I found this Playbill article where they were talking about. But you can count on me as a bad, sorry. No, no. Just musing on bad titles for great things. You can count on me. I remember being, because I love that film. Incredible movie.

And I remember almost not seeing it because the title. And then being so happy that nobody said, you can count on me. Yes. You're sitting there the whole time, going like, don't blow it, my guy. It sounds like an inspirational. It could come at any second.

Sundancey kind of movie. I mean, I know it was. But once you've seen it, the title kind of works. No, it's a totally fine title, but now I'm realizing like actually, he usually shits the bed with his titles. No, I'm kidding. I mean, Margaret is a great title for the movie.

It's a tough sell, maybe. Right, it also falls into the Tootsie problem of like, so who plays Margaret? Right, you're like, actually nobody. It's a poem. There's a Playbill article I found that was when You Can Count On Me was about to come out and they're saying, like, everything's coming up Lonergan. He wrote the Rocky and Bullwinkle movie.

His first directorial effort. Like, This Is Our Youth continues to sell out in London. And he was like, my next thing I'm doing is This Is Our Youth as a movie. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Which is just like, it is, as long as people don't think I shit the bed on this first film, I'm doing that next without a doubt. It's not cinematic at all.

It's set in a frickin' dirty apartment, like it's a play. I don't know. It makes sense because it was so beloved and everybody likes young people. Right, he could in theory get three big stars to do it. Damon Affleck, Casey Affleck and Summer Phoenix was that cast. Wild.

I gotta find the Kieran Culkin one. I saw it like three times. I just kept going. I saw the Kieran Culkin with Michael Cera. Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. And Taffy. At the roundabout.

Yeah. And Taffy, right. Yes. Find out who played the female part against Klein and Prince though. Colin Hanks did it in London, I think. Anyway, this is not important. Now I'm seeing why these go for two hours.

Sorry, okay, Miller's Crossing. Because we talk about the important things that everyone else is afraid to talk about. Here's what I want to ask about Miller's Crossing. Or rather, a point I want to make. Bloodsiple does not have a ton of dialogue in it. The dialogue that's in it's really strong. But there are extended sections that play out in silence. It's mostly just the private eye.

Yeah, I meant Walsh. You modeled it. Incredible. Who, you know, was a real get for them in their first film. He's a- Proper recognizable character actor. You guys seen straight time? Yeah. Heather Burns, the greatest.

Oh, yeah. Love Heather Burns. But yeah, but that's a good point that like what they did for M.M. at Walsh, a guy who was always kind of taken astirity but never got that good of a showcase, I think immediately gives them so much clout with other actors of, I want them to do for me what they did for him And just from raising Arizona on they're getting great people But raising Arizona is so dialogue forward

But the criticisms at the time as we read all the insane reviews when it came out are people being like why is this so fucking? Overwritten there's all this insane criticism at the time for me.. Yes, being like, no one talks like this. Rather than getting that that's the point. And then Miller's crossing... The critics don't really fully align on the cones until Fargo. Like, I mean, obviously, they were critically beloved in their way, but like, every movie, there would be a huge swath of usually older critics

being like, this is all sizzle. Like, you know, this is pastiche, like you say. Like, this is not... And there's that, there's that, like, I'm always sizzle. Like, you know, this is pastiche, like you say. Like, this is not. Well, and there's that, like, I'm always mystified by this one, but they judge their characters. They don't like their characters. Right, right, they're patronizing.

It's like, they love their characters. I've never understood, well, no, I've just never understood that as even a criticism. It's like, especially when you're making a genre film, it's like, I want you to destroy everybody you create. Like, you know, that's like, I've paid for this movie. You know? Also, their movies are about cruel and indifferent universes.

Yeah, and they've always been world builders, you know? And they're people who are very conscious of kind of all the traditions that precede them. And what kind of distinguishes them is that they're both like a reverential thing going on where they absolutely like, you know, love these traditions. And then they're also totally irreverent

where they're, you know, kind of blowing them up. And so you do have something like, with Raising Arizona, you've got like a lot of like Tex Avery and all the, you know, but then, you know, with Miller's Crossing, you have specifically Dashiell Hammett, you've got Howard Hawks, you've got, this like really explodes with Hudsucker Proxy

where it's like, okay, this is sort of Capra, it's like Mr. Deeds goes toxy, where it's like, okay, this is sort of Capra. It's like Mr. Deeds goes to town and it's like, okay. It's also like the big clock and you got Sturgis. It's mostly Capra with the speed of Howard Hawks. And then with Miller's Crossing, you've got, I would say mostly Hammett with, again, the treatment of dialogue that you get from Howard Hawks and then like a minimalism that,

even just the rooms are empty. Yes, and after how kinetic and sort of like thoroughly stylized Raising Arizona is, I think you're right that they didn't totally align until Fargo. But this is a movie where you see a lot of their critical critics swing back and go, maybe these guys have depth. Not everybody. This is the first of their films that feels that has like an elegiac quality. Yes. And I and I do feel that if you're one of the people who,

whatever, was like saw Raising Arizona and was like weird enough to be like, they don't like these people, I don't like this, you know. This movie is really moving. And it's a great film about friendship. That's the, I think you have to watch it a couple times to figure that out maybe because the first, because it's so visually overwhelming

and because the plot is ostensibly naughty and complicated that so you're like trying to keep track. And then the more I watched it, the more I locked in on like, yes, it's a film about friendship. It's a film about a person weighing whether there's any morality and like what he does, right? You know what I mean?

And like making a moral decision and then regretting it essentially. Like I'm reading the Ebert Review. The Ebert Review is interesting because he has the criticism I think a lot of people had where he's like, this is a gorgeous movie. I don't believe that anyone would live in these rooms. Like these rooms are too beautiful.

It's not a gangster movie. Like, and can be in the Times who I think of as like one of the kings of the old guard back then, like futsy kind of a whatever bad critic, sorry, Vincent, um, was a big hater who is like, this is like fucking Dick Tracy, you know, the Warren Beatty movie. Don't really practice toy train pest. Yeah. This is just these kids playing with gangster action figures and you're

just like, I'm just saying not to dis my own community, but, um, but I think this movie is even on a surface level more sincere and less ironic, less, right? Which broke down some of their detractors who get fully won over by Fargo. And I think part of it is, to your point, when you're talking about all the different elements they're synthesizing in like, you know, Hudsuckers after this, but in Blood Simple and in Raising Arizona, they're getting the charge from putting disparate things together, right? What if you combined Mad Max with Flannery O'Connor with Wiley Coyote?

And to some people, they just short-circuit and go, you can't put those things together. The things that Miller's Crossing is synthesizing are all starting at a closer place to each other. So I think people were just like, okay, this is a less manic thing. A thing that I find funny, because I was trying to remember why I saw Miller, not Miller's Crossing, Raising Arizona at a young age. And it was that I was obsessed with the AFI did their hundred years, hundred laughs list after their first years, 100 laughs list.

After their first 100 years of movies list, they tried to do every year a new one as a TV special that I was obsessed with. And then Blockbuster had a little pamphlet where you could check on which ones you had watched as a comedy obsessed kid. And in 1998, Raising Arizona was 30 on their list. 31. 31. But like barely 10 years later, it had gone from like, what is this overwritten stuff to, we all agree this is one of the 50 best American comedies ever made. Yep, Fargo's also on that list.

Where was Fargo? 93. And I'm sure Big Lebowski's on there now and- Now would be, yeah. Yeah, right. Now I wonder if Raising Arizona, well, who knows? Just because Big Lebowski sort of became their most famous out and out comedy in a way. But I'm opening the dossier.

We have research. All right. We don't just make stuff up. Okay? I'll also use the summer. So obviously, right, they're pivoting out of Raising Arizona. Joel says, we don't want to do another out and out comedy. We wanted to do something that was a little bit morbid.

We've always liked gangsters. They talk about the visual. The starting point is the visual is the hats, the long coats, the hat blowing onto the ground. Tommy Gunn's Dirty Town Gangster Stories is how Joel Cohen puts it, more pulp lit than movies per se, right? Like, they're starting more with this. The sound of the cork being pulled out of a whiskey bottle.

Skip, please say once again, The Goat. No movies sound better than Coen Brothers movies because every single action has such a distinct resonance to it. Any, like, shifting of weight in a chair suddenly is the most visceral thing you have ever experienced. I'll just say, since I'm only able to talk on the Miller's Crossing podcast, but I've got a lot to say about all their films, I will say for sound design, the road trip sequence in Inside Lewin Davis is so mesmerizing.

The John Goodman. Goodman, Garrett Headless. Everything about it, it's so, just it is such a hypnotic, like 20, 25 minutes. It might be their best filmmaking, but also the, but just the sound design. It's like the whole thing is like almost underwater. Yeah. And it's really, it's really eerie. It's like the whole thing is like almost underwater. And it's really, it's really eerie.

And also just their like metronomic sense of like pacing like reaches like a sort of apex. That's the, they have a lot of like, like a lot of like apogees like, you know. They do, they have multiples. I can't talk on on HUD Sucker Proxy or Serious Man podcast, but I will say you like them. You can share your thoughts here.

This is your space. I will say Serious Man, The Goi's Teeth, and then Hudsucker Proxy, The Hula Hoop, which I know Sam Raimi was involved in helping to direct. Those two are like, I mean, just, you know, as far as the medium has been like pushed, as far as montage is concerned, just absolutely amazing. And the HUD sucker, right, the HUD sucker sequence feels mathematical in the way it

is interweaving different games that are being heightened and de heightened. You basically within one extended montage have like 10 different narrative tracks that you're keeping your tabs on. Yeah. And just like what they're doing in that movie with the Ketchaturian, you know, it's, I mean, it's Carter Burwell kind of riffing on Ketchaturian's Spartacus. Yes.

Mostly the Adagio, but it's, I mean, just what they're doing with music there is so great. It's like, you know, it's very, it's like, it's very Rube Goldberg and they're very Rube Goldberg-y filmmakers. The sort of Serious Man True Grit inside Lewin Davis, whatever, Apogee, one of, one of like several Apogee, is that does feel like- Drawing a circle like for kids.

Like for kids. Yeah. That feels like where they're just like, I'm not saying in an arrogant way, it's just they're so- We can do anything. They can do anything. Right. Like they can work in any genre at that point

without any kind of like, oh, let's see what this is like. We've recorded our Hot Sucker episode quite a bit ago, and I was trying to do some tidying around the office, and I found this, which I don't think was shared on mic and never went acknowledged. Ben, I believe, drew this up, which is a chain, and it says, you know for kids.

Was this your handiwork? It was just like an idea I was playing around with. Just pitching the idea of a chain to play with. Oh, because you like just like a metal chain. Ben likes chains. Chains like chains. Right. It's a quality of something I love in film.

Oh, I'm sorry. Chains in general. You know for bad kids. I missed the key word. The chain is for bad kids. There's no Ari movie with chains though. You've never really done chain work in your oeuvre. Boat was afraid.

He breaks the chains, remember in the play? Yes, okay, yes, that's right, that's right. Okay, so you've done some chain. It just must be fun to like, as a director, evaluate like piles of chains, right? Like is this the right chain? It's more in my private life. When you're visited by Jacob Marley.

Ari, same, I gotta say. So okay, Millers Crossing, as you already noted, Dashiell Hammett is obviously their biggest inspiration versus James Kane, Raymond Chandler, whoever else that they've also sort of paid homage to over the years. Yeah, Chandler would be big Lebowski. Kane would be man who wasn't there.

And kind of blood simple. Definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah, blood simple for sure. Kane the horniest, I would say. Chandler kind of the coolest. And Hammett, I feel like is the most emotional. I don't know, maybe that's very broad of me though. Actually, maybe I should take that back. I'm not sure if I would say

Hammett was the most emotional because- Well, Glass Key is emotional, which is a book I love. Cause that is about friendship. That is about a guy being like, I can't be friends with you anymore. But you're also outside of the characters in Hammett. Whereas with, I would say, is Kane the most emotional?

Not necessarily. Kane's just so horny. With Mildred Pierce, maybe. But Kane is like so just bare bones and like nothing extraneous. Whereas Hamet is like more colorful, I would say, and is having more fun with language. And then Chandler is, you're just always, is like more colorful, I would say, and is having more fun with language and, uh, and

then Chandler is, is, uh, you're, you're just always inside of like Marlowe's, right? A drunk motherfucker. Oh, God, point of view. Who like can't put his pants on, but also is so cool. To speaking to what you're saying, Ethan, cause this is a quote from Ethan, knowledge crossing definitely an exercise in doing a Hammett story. It's that thing of not being in the character's head and part of the mystery is who is the main character.

So, because Sam Spade, who I feel like is the most famous Hammett guy, you are spending the whole thing being like, yeah, what does he want actually? Like, I don't get it, he's cool. Yeah, he's an enigma. And in, and Gabriel Byrne in this movie, Tom, Tom Reagan, he's a...

You might not know, the character's Irish. Did you pick up on that? The subtleties. Yeah, he's stoic. He's a stoic who... He's sort of man a few words, stone-faced often. Very red harvest. And it's like, he's doing something.

We know he's got a plan. We don't know how much of a plan he has. He seems to be a brilliant improviser. Have ideas for a plan. What's the line? Yeah, right. Something like that. And I guess, Red Harvest is infamously

the sort of the text for Yo Jimbo and then those Sergio Leone. The man with no name. Yeah, the man with no name, but specifically a fistful of dollars, right? And then, yeah, just a guy who in the case of like Yojimbo, like, you know, rolls into a town, a street, you know, like a drifter who then pits, you know, pits two warring who then pits two warring gangs against each other. But here, it's somebody who's of the world and in the world and...

What's the line they used to describe him to? He's like the guy behind the guy whispering in the ear. This sort of notion of the type of guy who's not usually at the center of these stories. The right-hand man. Right, and is so reluctant to reveal himself in any way. There's the- Tough to date.

I feel like this guy might be tough to date. Well, there's the exchange he has with Marsha Gay-Hurton where she's like, that's a hell of a long way to go to get what you want. And then he says, what would that be? And she says, me. And it's a thing he would never ever say to her that she's basically pulling out of him of,

I think you just got fired and got your ass beat rather than saying I love you, which is the thing you would never do. And yet the whole time in almost every scene I'm trying to figure out, is he manipulating this current situation to his own ends for what he wants, or is he battling back and forth

in terms of what he actually wants? I think what makes this character interesting to me is at different times, I think he's in complete control or complete chaos based on, is he cleaning up the messes of something he did wrong before, or is this all how he was trying to build it out purposefully? Because I think there is some shifting of...

At moments in this movie, I'm thinking, he's planning all of this so he can get out. Or he's planning all of this so he can be on top. Or he's planning all of this to help Albert Finney. Or just to get Marsh Gay Harden. Or all of them. Does he think he can pull it all off? And then by the end, turned out he, you know, he did have the plan.

Yes. Do you think he, the whole time is like, that's how it's gonna unfold, I'll switch sides and ferment chaos? Well, of course not when he like, lets Bernie Birnbaum like go in the woods, you know. That's the one time he's letting the mask slip or whatever. That's the sort of crux, right?

It's like it actually... And I would fucking let him go too. He won't shut up. I would struggle to shoot Bernie Burmahm. And then it's so great when he shoots him. It's one of the most satisfying murders of a person ever in a movie. It's like, no, Bernie! Yes, what art.

Having only seen this movie twice, admittedly, I did, in this watch, feel like there is a midsection where his priority becomes Marcia Gay Harden. I mean, she's... And then he's sort of trying to untangle the damage he causes by letting his emotions override that much. I think there's a window where that becomes the dominant driving force for him,

and then he starts to close up again. He's definitely, look, he's a compulsive gambler, and he likes a drinker too. He likes to pull the cork. Yeah, it's not like Tom is a completely straightforward person. There's obviously a lot raging inside of him that is, you know, that he deals with in traditional 1920s gangster ways. It'd be funny if he went off and did art or something. But you know.

He's actually a really good painter. Right. But yeah, he's not sentimental, I guess. And Albert Finney, Leo, right, is such a sweetheart in this movie, which is so, he never stops being a sweetheart. Like he's really not a cold blooded, he's a very warm-blooded guy, right?

Like he's a, and I feel like Tom is like, I don't know how to be like that, or I don't understand like how to sort of handle this, like, you know, this emotional person, right? I don't know. Yeah, Albert Finney at the end of his career was, in those last like, you know, 15 years, was playing a lot of warm guys. He's, yeah, in those last 15 years, was playing a lot of warm guys.

He's, yes. And Aaron Brockovich and all this. But I... My favorite actor, basically. I mean, Saturday night and Sunday morning is one of my favorite performances. That is basically one of my core movies. That's where he plays like a brute.

As I've told, I've said on this podcast, that's like, my dad was always just like, that was me. You were raised on that movie. Yeah. Yeah, it was a working this podcast, that is, that's like, my dad was always just like, that was me. Because my dad was, yeah, was a working class British guy, like in that era. He's just drinking all the time. He just always. Where it's just like, we just got food back, like proper, like, I don't mean even good food,

but Britain in like the late fifties is basically like, we're now allowed to eat regular amounts of food again. We've basically just been drinking our brains out. If a character was just beer, it would be Albert Finney. He's a human pint. And what I love about that is that's 1960, 1963. The next movie he makes is Tom Jones in 1963, which is basically like, what if a guy fucked his way through England in whatever era?

But the commonalities... The Oscars were like, best picture, I think. But the commonalities, there was always- And the Oscars were like best picture, I think. Like, this is the best picture of the year. He always had that, like, not to be corny, but the twinkle in his eye. And there was this, like, well of warmth that you could apply in different ways. But there was something of like,

in Aaron Brockovich, you want to see him be won over, right? But something like this, what's funny about it is that he's not doing the tough layer on top of it. I mean, it's one of the most insane things is that this was not only not written for him, but written explicitly for Trey Wilson, who dies two days before filming. Right. Who's obviously wonderful in Raising Arizona. And you get it. I mean, like you can see him in this, but then I also cannot imagine anyone else but Finney in the robe with the Tommy gun. Like, you know, in that whole sequence, you're like, yeah, this is it.

Yeah. And the weight of the history of what he provides. Like, Trey Wilson clearly would have knocked this out of the park because he would have been eager to have this kind of opportunity. But seeing one of Finney sitting there, you're like, yeah, I get that this guy's run this town for 20 years or whatever. It's like production value and like weight, and especially because the movie basically opens on him

silently, largely just reacting, you know? That's sort of like worth its weight in gold, but it is wild that it not only was not intended for him, but that he jumps in so last minute where you're like, this is Finney with zero prep? Yeah, right. Like if Trey Wilson dies two days before, like, how do they even get to Finney that quick? Get an agreement out of him, get him on set within a week.

Yeah, it's a really soulful performance. But also, he's so clearly tapped into whatever they're doing, you know, I mean, like, there's the gag where Gabriel Byrne breaks into the ladies' room and he's dressed in drag as, like, one of the attendants. It's like, which he asked to do, it's just clear that he has the same sense of humor as the... Right, it was into the idea of being Roderick Jaynes at the Oscar.

Like, I'm just like, it's so funny. But also this feels like a movie, especially at this point in their career, that you imagine only gets greenlit if they have someone like Finney in the supporting role. Well, let me get back to the research then because, okay, only gets greenlit if they have someone like Finney in the supporting role. This feels like a classic like- Let me get back to the research then. Because okay, so famously, yes,

usually they say they write very fast. That's, I feel like their typical explanation on screenplay writing, but as we said, the plot slows them down. It takes them, they say about eight months because they stop in the middle to write about Bart and Fink. They get some distance from it. they kind of go on vacation,

they come back to it, they figure out the plot. And they also say they don't change the dialogue, but they rewrote part of the script during filming, which I don't really understand, but maybe they just kind of restructured the, you know, plotting in some way. They obviously are not very into symbolism, explaining symbolism.

Barry Sonnenfeld says, like, they won't say, like, the hat represents this. We're gonna talk about the hat. But they will say, yeah, we wanted to make a movie with hats. You know what I mean? Like, that's the thing with the cones. They're like, hats.

Like, we started with hats. What do the hats mean? And they're like, oh, I don't know, we just like hats. Right before we recorded We were talking about how you were worried going into the series of like isn't gonna be tough because they famously don't want to talk In interviews and we're not gonna get the context that JJ is usually good at digging up when he's not busy being fired And that you've been surprised that there is a lot of stuff they say despite the reputation you can pin all this together But I feel like so much of their reputation

comes from the hat where this movie comes out and everyone's like, what does the hat mean? And they kept on being like, we just thought it was kind of an interesting image. They really downplayed any weight behind it. And I feel- Cody, think Cohen, the hat doesn't represent anything. It's a hat blown by the wind.

Yes. It's an image that came to us that we like. And then Barton Fink almost... I don't think that's disingenuous. Kind of comes out. No, I don't either. I think that strikes me as being right. I don't see that and think like,

man, that hat represents... I agree with you, I think that's the secret. You gotta just, I mean, look, I'm sure you have made movies, I'm sure where people are like, but Ari, what does this mean? Like, that scene, come on now, explain this to me now, Ari. I'm like, I'm sure you does this mean? Like that scene, come on now, explain this to me now, Ari.

You know, I'm like, I'm sure you get this all the time. Totally. And that's really fun and you love those questions and you'll have to answer them. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And sometimes you dangle stuff knowing that it's gonna, you know, it's gonna waste people's time.

You're not a babe in the woods being like, la la la, you know that sure, like, okay, this will be something. Sometimes that's the joke, the joke. From this point on. The joke is like, you're gonna think this means something. Well, that's why the dick in the attic in Boat of Rain is my favorite thing.

Well, that's the whole point. The whole point is like, the whole point is- What could be up there? Is the whole movie, you're like, you know, you build the intrigue and you make it like an object of suspense and then you reveal, like, you've just wasted your time and your thought and your energy on this.

And it's the stupidest possible thing that could mean nothing. But also it kind of means everything. It's like, isn't everyone's father kind of a penis? That's the trap, you know? Even, I mean, it's almost like the one thing I regret where it's just like, ugh. Are you having too much fun? Well, no, it's just such a fuck I, I, are you having too much fun or?

Well, no, just such a fuck you. And that was sort of the point was, you know, I guess to quote Susan Sontag. Please. I it's a it's it's a gesture that's against the very idea of interpretation. Right. Like just like try. Yeah. Just try to interpret this. I just gave Ari the finger. Yeah. Well, that's exactly right. It is it is a middle finger to anybody investing anything.

Like sort of doing semiotics. I mean, against everything we've just said, can I give my hat, Reed? Oh, please. Something kind of clicked for me watching it this time. Yeah, the hat is a penis. The hat is a penis, it's Bo's dad. What's up?

The hat is Bo's dad, it's a call for. What's the hat? No, I think it is literally just a hat, right? But I think the reason, not just the imagery, right? But then also the high hat, being thrown out as the term all the time. Yeah, give me the high hat, sure. Refers to symbols, but yes.

Yes, and the first scene after the opening credits and the hat imagery is them calling out that Gabriel Byrne lost his hat. Yes. And it goes back to the Leo thing. They are very into knocking his hat off his head. Absolutely. A lot.

And there's a lot in this movie of when people are wearing a hat, when they're not, when they take it off, right? Which I think is just literally what it is. And down to Polito talking about like ethics, right? That this is a movie to me in many ways that is about this kind of like early 1900s, all the immigration happening, these different cliques from different countries coming to the major cities

and trying to establish a social hierarchy. You know, where did the Irish stand relative to the Italians and to the Jews and all these people trying to make a name for themselves. But all of this was couched in this idea of like manners and ethics and gentlemanly behavior and who can you trust? The Sopranos thing of, do you feel like we got in after all the good stuff had happened,

right? That that era of mobsterism and even what Goodfellas is kind of addressing is this is starting to get tacky. The shit that they talk about being so animating to them is these movies that have this kind of dialogue and the hats and the long coats. Yeah, they're fetishists. These guys used to talk well and dress well, right? That's absolutely right.

And the idea of what you did with your hat was shown, could be an ultimate sign of respect or disrespect to someone else. That the major thing in play here, in many ways the central tension of this movie is, can you do something that breaks the gentlemanly nature of crime? Sure. If you do that, is this irrevocable? Polito's hatred of the double cross. We're all pretending to be gentlemen.

Exactly. To what extent are we really? Yeah, no. The hat is a meaningless thing that all this weight is put on. It could be the ultimate affront if you do the wrong thing with your hat, or if you lose it, do you feel like you're no longer a man? But it is just literally a hat. It's nothing. It's just a piece of poetry. Yeah. I got to say about tailors and haberdasher's during this era,

they were fucking cleaning up. OK, go off. They were making so much money because you got to think like these knuckleheads show up, they get a full wardrobe Then they get shot by a tommy gun minutes later. They need they just then turn out another henchman They're not just gonna patch a hole. They're gonna give you a new hat from scratch Yeah, yeah, if you go to the Shenandoah Club, you know, there's a lot of henchmen up up on that Yeah that upper floor in that hallway. They were working in quantity. For sure. Yeah.

Yeah, it was a good time. Do you know also, Ben, do you know that the reason the Mad Hatter exists as a character is because hat glue used to make people literally fucking insane? Yeah, they would use mercury. Right. So they were cleaning up,

but then they were also probably hitting themselves in the head with a mallet. Everyone was crazy back then, you know what I mean? As Ari alluded to, you got three big gangster movies this year. You have Miller's Crossing, which is this sort of stately, almost to a point film, where it's so painterly and beautiful. You got Goodfellas, which is Scorsese poking the gangster movie in the eye, I feel like, right?

Like he's like, this is not the Godfather. These people were not classy. They did not like all dress like beautifully and like have poetic conversations in dark rooms. They were like weird little psychos, as God bless them. And it's about how being a gangster is fun. It's super fun.

And then someone might shoot you cause you were annoying for one minute or said something. In The Godfather, it's like, may I have permission to shoot? Yes. Yeah. You know, I love The Godfather to be clear, but I feel like Scorsese's like, come on, like, let's. And then you have was home alone. No, you have The Godfather Part Three. I put Home Alone in there. I think Home Alone is kind of important in this.

I don't know that the wet mandates were organized crime. I think they were kind of just a sort of a stack operation. That's the pointed satire of the film. They're disorganized crime. What were you gonna say about The Godfather III? Well, it's just obviously that's a flood movie. I don't know if you agree. Maybe you think The Godfather III is perfect up and down,

but you know. I do think it's flood. It's a movie where you feel like Coppola's maybe not, his heart isn't in all of it as much as the first ones. There's lots of interesting stuff. But it's got a bit of a reality. Right, it's, you know, like, and it is also kind of about like the gangsters of old

who are so, you know, finally appointed are getting a little garish. There's a lot of gross money, right? There's the whole thing with the Vatican, you know, whatever, it's just like, tarnishing. You know, and the Miller's Crossing is more the sort of picture perfect, like Norman Rockwell gangsters. I don't know how to describe them.

Which is what they're obsessed with preserving. The sense of like, this means something. And the whole Bushido, you know, of like, if Leo says so, then you got your marching orders. I'm like, that's what you do. Miller's Crossing is pastiche. And it's like a tribute to a way of making movies and a style of filmmaking that is very classic,

but is dead. And so, it's not a surprise that Miller's Crossing wasn't a commercial hit. But now for me, I feel like it's such a successful tribute that... Like, I put it with those movies. I put it with... Sure, it fits into the... Yeah. Yeah, with those gangster films of the... Of the year, right.

Yeah, of like the 30s and 40s and you know films like God I'm trying to think like I'm roaring 20s It's a little I mean those Cagney movies are not quite this energy I guess yeah I'm trying to think like what what would I put this with? Because it is so Hammett that it's that it makes me think of those books more than it makes me think of any film Which is what they're saying. Like, they are, like, our big inspiration is more books versus us doing our version of The Big Sleeper. You know, like, whatever, you know, Key Largo.

I mean, I don't know, any gangster movie. There's so many gangster movies that you could think of. Well, and for how classical it is, I think it's hard to put it up against the films from the actual era, because what it has is the distance and the perspective to be mourning the loss of this. Yeah, I mean, it feels like a Michael Curtiz film or something. That's a good call. As far as how they shoot it, how, you know,

the dialogue is more stylized than anything. Should I watch every Michael Curtiz movie? No. There's so many of them, but there are so many? No. It's like 400, right? But there's so many of them. But there are so many great ones. I feel like I've seen... There's so many great ones.

The only gangster movies I've seen is Angels of Dirty Faces, which is very, very good. It's great. But I'm not actually that up to, you know, up on his, like, his vast amount of output. I've seen Casablanca, which I'm a fan of that one. Yeah, it's good. I actually think that movie's well written. I've seen, like, Captain Blood. I've seen it. But yeah, which I'm a fan of that one. I actually think that movie's well written. I've seen Captain Blood. I'm not a big Michael Curtiz.

I have seen that many years ago. The Breaking Point. Don't think I've seen that? That sounds good. What's up with that? Is that a boat movie or a wolf movie? It's another boat movie. Michael Curtiz never made a talking wolf movie, did he?

Like a talking animal picture? No, I don't think so. He was what, Hungarian, right? Yes. Anyway, okay, Millage Crossing. This is their second Circle film, which Bloodsip will also just be the- Yes, Circle just signs up and is like,

we get it, we're in the Coen's business for the long term. It's 20th Century Fox, who funds most of the movie, who had obviously done Raising Arizona. Ben Barinholtz is the guy they're working with. And basically, like they had this arrangement early in their career where Circle film was basically like, do what you want, we'll sell the movie. And, you know, I mean, there's nothing like that arrangement now. Like the way things work back then does seem kind of unique.

Or maybe the art film scene was a little. Well, you had, you know, you had home video you had home video and that made everything less of a risk. You know? Like, if it doesn't make its money in theaters, it's gonna make its money on video. This movie was seen as a flop, but it also cost less than $10 million. So... The budget's a little... Right, they're like between foreign sales and TV and video.

I'm not worried. I think their only meaningful flop was Hudsuk and Brexey. That's the only one that ever, you know, probably like led to some serious discussions about like how do we play the next one. Yes, right. We actually need to think, be sort of thoughtful of our budget next. But this also feels like a movie that today, even if a studio were to say,

sure, we'll make this, it would be green light contingent on you getting one of ten actors. Yeah, fucking gangster squad. That they could get people to sign up. Right, well that's contingent on you getting five of the biggest stars simultaneously. Get a bunch of big actors. Gabriel Byrne is not a star. Exactly.

The idea that they could set this up and be like, and by the way, this is our guy we're picking, and they're like, the fifth lead from Excalibur? Right. A casting director turns them onto him. He'd done Excalibur and like, The Keep and Lion Heart. He's a guy. He's not famous at all. Has he ever been the center of a movie? Certainly not a Hollywood film. Not a big movie. And then he basically becomes shorthand for noir for the rest of the 90s. Now you've worked with Gabriel Byrne. I have, and he's one of my favorite people.

He's a really, really wonderful man. Famously a guy I've seen on the street many times, for some reason, to the point where I was like, what's going on? You should say hello. He's just a good guy." -"He's Brooklynite." I am a big fan of what happens to him in Hereditary. I think one time I interviewed him, I just think it's so funny that if you think about that movie just from Gabriel Byrd's perspective. Yeah, he really didn't ask for any of that.

He asks for none of it. Almost every scene he's like, what? As some fucking insane, you know, further breakdown is occurred. And then he just catches on fire and that's the, I'm sorry that I'm spoiling all your movies on this podcast. That was fine, I mean. But if you rewatched Redditoria and you're like,

let me just get right into Byrne's perspective. He really shouldn't have married her. I'm sorry to say, sorry to be rude to Tony, who's, you know, a luminous creature or whatever, but he should not have married into that family. No, he, you know, he took a wrong turn somewhere. Was casting him in Hereditary partially inspired by this? Is this your favorite performance of his?

Yeah. I was super starstruck by him because of this. And he's got an iconic face, like a low-key icon. No one has ever looked like him. Nobody really looks like him. He's got a great face, great eyes, great presence. Very, like, he's just a very grounded, like authoritative, you know, you just, you take him seriously.

And like, deep well of bottled emotion. You can just cut to him listening to a conversation and be endlessly fascinated by what is this guy thinking right now. Yeah, they love him. He is the one who insists on the Irish accent, which they're resistant to, but obviously I think good call. It's also a light lilt. Sure.

Yeah, he's not like, oh, hello. Yeah, no, it's a's a chomping on potatoes. But it helps in this way that like these people are the early wave of Americanization. They're all kind of one foot in, one foot out. It also makes him a bit of an outsider in the film.

Absolutely. Even though even though Leo, you know, the Albert Finney character is also, you know, extensively, you know, Irish. And Finney has similar. He's put, ostensibly, you know, like Irish. But he's- And Finney has similar, he's putting a little tiny inflection sometimes, yeah. He says, obviously, as you often will hear about,

Cohen's directing style would be fairly just kind of like, you know, rudimentary or not too involved. And at one point he said, "'What's the significance of the hat?' And Ethan replied, "'Mmm.'" And that was it. Yes. Another point he said, what's the significance of the hat? And Ethan replied, hmm. And that was it. Yes. Another point he said, like, I think in this scene

I'll like walk out of the room, I'll put the drink down, walk out of the room, and they were like, he would never leave a drink like in the glass, finish the drink. But that's good direction. That's what I mean, like they're on those points. Right, that's a key detail of the character, yeah. Obviously, right, Trey Wilson dies

right before the shoots of art's gonna start. They delay 10 days and Albert Finney pops in. How do they even get through to him? I know they're at Fox. I have 1-800 Albert. No, I don't know. Finney says he also is Finney

apparently also got a little put a little more Irish on it. Ethan quote from Ethan Cohen. We got mugged by the Irish. Albert Phinney, of course, is not Irish, but he is British. And yeah, he just really wanted to do it. And he was really into the attendant thing. He begged for that.

They were like, no. And he was like, please. I mean, British guys love to dress in drag. Like that is number one, like, you know, just to do some panto essentially. Yeah. This is Marcia Gay Harden's... Something's in the tea over there.

Yeah, 100%. This is Marcia Gay Harden's, like, first role, basically, in a movie. She's in Angels in America on Broadway. Okay. But she didn't originate it. Yeah, she did. But I think Deborah Messing originated it. You thought very wrong, my friend.

Okay. But that, I think, is actually maybe after this. Yeah, that's in, wrong, my friend. But that I think is actually maybe after this, yeah, that's in like 93. This is one of those performances where I, when I saw this for the first time, I went like, I kind of now understand better why she won the Oscar for Pollock. It's also because she says in that movie,

you've done it Pollock, you broke it wide open, which is something you have to do in a biopic. You have to say. You have to have somebody say, this is history. Jackson, no pressure, but if you fleck this paint correctly, you might be remembered for the rest of time. The best scene in Pollock is when he's biking

and he's got all the fucking booze on the bike and he falls off the bike. I don't think she's bad in Pollock, but this is one of those things where you watch. I don't think she's bad in public, but this is one of those things where you watch. I haven't seen it in 30 years. You watch the performance that someone gives before they win the sort of surprise Oscar,

and you're like, oh, this is everyone years later catching up and being like, we probably should have given her more credit earlier. She's phenomenal in this. She's a great actor. She's great in this. She's very, she's very sexy. Are you allowed to say that?

We're allowed to say that. Yeah, we don't tone police on this podcast, okay? We are allowed to call Marcia Gay Harden circa 1990. Sensuous. She's very sexy. Very smoky sexy. I feel like, you know, they're, again, you know, like they're evoking... Obviously, the sexiest performance in this film is John Polito.

I mean, Polito is one of the best actors to ever do it. Yes. John Polito is so amazing. He, I mean, apparently basically just walked in and they were like, great. Like, you know, like they saw tons of guys and then he walked in. And he continues to be amazing in all of their films. As Creighton Tolliver. He feels like they built these sets though, and he just walked in, you know what I mean?

Like the sets just summoned him in costume. Like they didn't even have to find out about him. He's great and I love him in Lebowski. Yeah, of course. I think he's so funny in that movie. As a brother Seamus. Yes, exactly. He's one of those great character actors

because he just is a type. Like he's just, you know, you couldn't get somebody to play Johnny Casper who wasn't Johnny Casper. I'm trying to see if I can find this because it doesn't look like JJ put it in the dossier, but I think it's his random roles he did for the AV club where he talks about that he wanted this role really badly and the Coens wouldn't see him for it

because he had read maybe for Blood Simple. And at that point he was like, I was a heartthrob. I had a full head of hair and I was like 40 pounds lighter. And they were like, that guy's a pretty boy. And he kept being like, you don't understand what I look like now. And he was saying this all with this attitude of, I'm so glad I'm no longer a pretty boy and I could get to play guys like Johnny Caspar. Like there was this part of him that this was always in his soul and the body was wrong for a while. And then he aged like milk and walked in and they were like,

as you said, holy shit, you're right, you're perfect. And it was like finally unlocked for him of like, this is the guy I've always wanted to be. This movie, it is astonishing to me that it didn't get a supporting actor nomination. But then every time I watch it, having only seen it two times, I'm doing the math being like, well, who do you put?

Well, Totoro got critic awards and critic attention. I feel like Totoro probably was the play because it's the showiest performance. And Fini would have been the studio play. Right. Obviously. But then Polito, I think. Look, I love Polito. The MVP of this movie. Polito is amazing. I love him. Oh, did somebody hit you? Just the look of...

What's a man who's on the Rizzler? Yeah. Coming in with the little sailor outfit. This is the first Tatoro collaboration, that he went to school with Francis McDormand, so they knew him. Obviously, he also just sort of feels like a guy that's been in Coen Brothers movies from day one.

That they built in a lab. A hundred percent. And I do think that he's amazing. Like, he's... You just want to reach in the screen and punch him. Like, he's so awful and slimy and like, so satisfied with himself. Yeah.

He's so unafraid of being a little douchebag. The scene where he comes back... And like same in the Spike Lee movie, you know what I mean? I just feel like that was his... He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did the right thing. This is the year after. Jungle Fever, he's so nasty in that one. Yes. But the scene where he shows up and now is like really feeling himself,

I actually hold all the cards, right? I'm going to tell you what's up Tom. And then within that he starts to break down about his vulnerability of the actual reason he has to put his thumb on Tom is because Tom saw him break and he doesn't want Tom breaking his tough guy image. And then he flips it back into, if you ever tried to shoot me again, I just scored a few tears. Like this flip of I actually have the power because you know, I'm not powerful, but also if you ever try to get the power back on me, I'll pretend I'm pitiful again. But in reality, that wasn't a fucking move from him.

No, he's doesn't want to die. Yes. I mean, he's, I guess, the kind of guy that, like if Tom has a gun pointed at him, he's probably just gonna like stoically be like, all right, right? I mean, he's probably not gonna drop to his knees and go, look at your heart, you know. Do it again. But Bernie would do it.

Oh, I'm saying, I'm saying, like, that's in Bernie's nature, probably. Tom would just, yeah, he'd take it. Yeah. Yeah. Steve Buscemi gets the part because he can say the lines, Tom would just, yeah, he'd take it. Yeah. Yeah. Steve Buscemi gets the park as he can say the lines essentially. They were like, we need someone fast. Ethan calls it a lost art like horseback riding, which I like.

And of course, Sam Raimi is in this film. They're still very close with him. They filmed the shoot in New Orleans, which I feel like is a classic place to film all the way up to now because it has all this-fashioned architecture that you can still just use. It's why Fincher uses it for Benjamin Button and all. Right? You know, like you just like... Free production. You don't need Roky.

Yes. Right. That's Hammond, Louisiana is Miller's Crossing, the trees and all that. But yeah, right. The general look is brown. Where did you shoot? You shot Eddington in New Mexico and Arizona or like around there? I shot Eddington in New Mexico, primarily Truth or Consequences, but also a lot of stuff outside of Albuquerque and in Madrid.

And I grew up in New Mexico. Right. This is my New Mexico movie. My cousin lives in Silver City, which I think of as like the sort of wrong side of New Mexico. Not in a bad way, but like not near all the sort of New Mexico stuff. Like you're not going to go get, you know, ceramics or see opera or like, visit the George O'Keefe house or whatever.

It's all the way on the other side, but it is very, very, very cool over there. Yeah, it's a very specific place. It's a weird place. I found the Polito interview. It was, he had done Death of a Salesman, and they had seen him in that, and he was 35, 150 pounds lighter, full head of hair, and they called him in and wanted him to read for the Dane,

because they were like, that's his physical type. And he was like, between 35 and 39. I aged like 30 years, doubled my weight, lost my hair and had to beg them to let him read for Casper. And then when he walked in the room, they were like, Oh, you didn't tell us you look like this now. Very Sonnenfeld is the last time he works with them. They wanted him. They just kept saying handsome and he didn't like that word And they went back and forth and back and forth and finally Sonnenfeld said quote what if we just make it look nice and they were like, yeah, that'd be great

So they they agreed on nice versus handsome, but they see, you know, I feel like they're They want to be more conventional less flashy, right? Like not as it's a deeply deeply brown film. Yeah, and the camera needs to be more stationary and it's a lot of conversation. So we're gonna be, you know, being conventional. Their films with Sonnenfeld are, you know, the lighting is a lot more flat than what Deakins brings. He brings them like a lot more mood

and a lot more texture and depth. Yeah. Sonnenfeld never shoots another movie again, right? Like this is it. Like Adam's Family is what, 91 or 92? And Sonnenfeld's films, once he starts directing, look like these films. Yes.

Like Get Shorty, you know, kind of looks like a contemporary Miller's Crack crossing. Yeah, no, absolutely. He shot Misery the same year. He shoots Misery for Rob Reiner. That's right, for Rob Reiner. Which is a great looking movie. And Wendher Metz Doll is the year before this?

Yes. And then that's it. And Adam's Family is 91. So it's like really much, you know, and like, look, those early Sonnenfeld movies are so good looking. Like I love those 90 Sonnenfeld movies. Like they look fabulous.

Like- Adam's Family values. Adam's Family values is a masterpiece. Red and Black is wonderful. And then- Wild Wild West still looks good. Sure. I'd argue everything from the 2000s on

stops looking good. It's weird that they stopped looking good. That's what I was trying to describe him. And it's not like I hate Barry Sonnefeld and I know you've worked with Barry Sonnefeld, but like- I never worked. I guess you never worked directly with him. He had a contractual position.

I just, I want to make clear with no disrespect, I never met the man. But it is odd that he went away from the really ornate stuff, like instead of doing more conventional comedies and stuff. RV looks insane. Okay, I have it. He's doing a thing in that, or whoever his DP is, but it's, I would say not successful, and then...

You seen RV? Yeah, I have. Runaway Vacation? I vacation I have yes I've seen it I saw it in theaters and it didn't make the biggest impression it didn't make your sight and sound top ten right no I'm trying to remember it was 11 on the list it was edged out yeah that has like the widest angle lenses in the world and has the color palette of like a fucking bag of Skittles. But then like Nine Lives looks terrible. Sure. Well, there were some challenges with that one probably.

Carter Burwell's score, you could say this about half a dozen Carter Burwell scores for the Coens, but it might be the best score you ever gave him. Like... It's great. He's got so many great scores, but it's... Very romantic. Right, using these Irish melodies and like all that stuff.

He can identify how in the middle of a piece, he can just hit one note that suddenly fills the entire thing with dread and melancholy. They have Frank Patterson, the singer, like record a new version. Like, that's not a vintage Danny Boy. Like, that's an original Danny Boy. That's probably the best sequence in the film. Yeah. It's pretty amazing.

It's transcendent. What do you think of a guy going... shooting the Tommy Gun in a circle, like, five times while he's dying? It's just the greatest. I agree. I agree. I agree. If you don't like that, then, like, you can just take your toys and go home. It's different people. And one of my favorite traditions in movies is

the gun that has endless ammo. That keeps going. And I feel like that's a gag that they kind of keep going back to. Like when the bar is being shot up by all the cops and there's the, just that, it's just endless. You know what's falling out of favor when characters are shot by a Tommy gun and they go like this?

Yes, like the real... Like gyrating. They're still standing up straight taking the bullet. Bullet after bullet. It's the Robocop boardroom. The guy who does not lose his ability to stay upright while being filled with like 800. Which also happens to Peter Weller. Yes. Yes he does.

He gets shot one gazillion times. But you don't fall over until the squibs stop. Was, Eddington- You stay upright and take the Swiss cheese and- Eddington's your first gun movie, right? Are there guns in Bo? There are guns in Bo, yeah. But like Eddington is like action.

Like I feel like you'd never directed like gun action in that scale before. Bo has action scenes in it. They're just comic. Chacey and... They're comic, but they're... But they are amazing. It's actually the same challenge,

which is like, how do I sustain this action for as long as possible? You know, an action is just cause and effect. Yes. But the Coens are masters of... for as long as possible. You know, an action is just cause and effect. But the Coens are masters of prolonging set pieces, which again is the Rube Goldberg thing, right? You kind of can't believe we're still going. Yes, but Eddington is the first time I've done

like maybe what I guess you might call proper action, even though it's meant to be funny as well. You have like, right, all the Denis Menoshet chase stuff in Bo. Well, exactly. Right, which feels a little Raising Arizona. Yeah. We've been saying this in other episodes, and I'm sure will come out 15 years from now, but they are, like, for not being thought of as action filmmakers at all,

anytime they do an action sequence, you're reminded they are amongst the best on the planet. Obviously like they have as good a sense. No country. They're better at establishing spatial geography. Yeah, no, they're incredibly lucid. Everything they do is right. In some ways they feel to me like the true successors

to Hitchcock in, I mean, they're the opposite in that, in their method where Hitchcock would do, or sorry, I'm saying, I said Hitchcock, I actually meant Kubrick, but both actually. They, so now that I'm scrambled and I said Hitchcock, but I said Hitchcock, but I, I, but I said Hitchcock for a reason. Um, even though it was, uh, an accident, it was positive for a dance, uh, which is, you know, that they, their films are incredibly designed. And when I was saying Kubrick, uh, and I was saying, you know, opposite methods, which is, you know, that he would do endless takes and they tend to do very few takes.

I find that their films are immaculately made. And then I think what really ties them to Kubrick is their sense of humor. Right. This particular kind of sense of humor. Which is like something, it's something between, well, it's sort of misanthropic, but then at the same time, it's also... You know, they're just Jews. It's just very Jewish.

Don't boil down to that. Hitchcock is just British. Like, and they'd like all of his weird shit. You're like, right, he's just a weird British guy. And like, they are just Jews. And this, I mean, like, when I'm thinking of no country, like no country is like, would you take the money? Right, you know, like right at the start,

like there's a big briefcase full of money. And like the Jewish mother in me, or the Jewish like part of me is like, no, no, no, no, no. Like if you take that money, like, half your brand name is gonna shoot you. Right. You know, like I can't, yeah, right. We'll talk about it on that episode.

Ben usually in these, when he watches these movies, is like, I would take the money and be fine. Perish the Ben's takeaways. If I were in this movie, it would end with me owning an island and being happy. I'd make the right choices. Like Ben watched Sam Raimi's Simple Plan and was like, yeah, that would work out.

I could solve this. Leo O'Bannon is the mobster of a town, a city, whatever. We don't need to, we don't care to know what it is, I guess, in Prohibition. Yes. He's the Irish boss of what I consider to be sort of like a mid-sized city, right? Like, this is not New York, LA, or Chicago. Right?

Doesn't seem like it. Like, it feels more just like Gangsterville. Yeah, although I'm not sure if it's not Chicago. Maybe it's, it feels, it just feels like smaller than Chicago, if that makes sense. Just because it is like, he has a nice house and he has a nice club. It doesn't feel like he runs this like big industrial city. And like the mayor is just a schmoe that he knows and the chief of police is another schmoe and all that. But he really likes this girl,

Verna Birnbaum, I guess is her name. It's Leo's twist. And she's related to, she's the sister of Bernie, who is a bookie who has been skimming off of the match fixing arranged by Italian gangster Johnny Casper. And Johnny wants him dead and Leo doesn't want him dead because he doesn't want to piss off Verna. And Tommy and Tom is in this situation of like, do I give, you know, my boss

really needs to kill this annoying Jewish guy. God bless you, Bernie. I'm Jewish just to be clear, but I do hate Bernie because he's Jewish, obviously. Bernie Sanders. Yeah. You back Bernie because he's Jewish, obviously. Bernie Sanders. Yeah. Jesus, Bernie. You back yourself into that one, my brother. You know, like, Tom is like torn between, like, I must show loyalty to my capo.

You know, like, right? You know, like, I have to be, like, a loyal soldier. And like, I'm watching Leo piss it away. And Leo, maybe because he's old, maybe because he's getting sentimental or whatever, is just like, I'll be fine. Like, who cares? Like, he has this kind of suave,

like, you know, like, I deserve to be in love. I don't know, does anyone want to, I'm just summarizing the plot of Miller's Crossing at this point, I feel. Well, you've left the Dane out of it. And before we leave the Jewish thing too early. No, let's never leave it. We're staying on it.

I just think there's also this really interesting thing that happens when they first start making films where especially Jewish critics like Jay Hoberman. Right, or like Alarm. Accused them of being anti-Semitic, which is so weird. And there is an interesting tradition among Jewish critics to disdain Jewish filmmakers.

Yes. I won't expound too much further on that because... As a Jewish filmmaker? Well, as a Jewish filmmaker who has recognized that tradition playing out before his very eyes. I think there can be this reactionary sense sometimes, like, you know, just like, don't get us in trouble or don't, like, sort of, like, shine a spotlight on all our nonsense

or I don't know what it is, you know, like... Or is it, why these Jewish guys? I'm a Jewish guy. Maybe it's just rank jealousy. There also, there's a thing we've talked about and the Kohn brothers are, like like a big notable exception from this trend. But very often when the highest level most prominent Jewish filmmakers finally make their sort of explicitly culturally Jewish movie, it feels like they are trying to go wash it

a little bit. There is this feeling that I've always found fascinating within these studios that are often run by Jewish people. And these filmmakers that are predominantly run by Jewish people, and these filmmakers that are predominantly Jewish, making Jewish family movies, and being like, but it can't be too Jewish. What are you thinking of? I mean, we talked about it a bit with the Fablemen.

Sure. Well, that's funny, because yeah, the Fablemen and Serious Man couldn't be... Right. Those are two very different Jewish... Jewish American films. Serious Man, to me, is the ultimate film about being Jewish American. Those are two very different Jewish... Jewish-American films. You know, it's like... Serious Man, to me, is like the ultimate film

about being like Jewish-American. Right? Like that sort of crazy dichotomy. That's the great movie about Jewishness. That was on your sight and sound top ten, right? I think that was your... It's Serious Man, I think. It's another one that... Well, Serious Man is there. It is there. Wow.

I have this right here. It's there right under Showa. You're right. They're the two. They're the double feature. Armageddon Time was the same year as Fableman's. I love both of those movies, but they both have that thing of not casting a single Jewish actor.

Well, with Armageddon Time, my very sympathetic to James Gray needs actors who are famous to fund his movies and all that. But whereas Fableman's, it was kind of interesting, but Fabelman's felt very honest to me from Spielberg in terms of like, this is about my Jewish identity and my upbringing, but we were also this kind of assimilation as family, and it's like, it's very vital to that movie.

I love that movie. The one I always throw out as a punching bag is... Armageddon time is like, we live on poisoned land. Like, that's obviously, yes. A darker film. The one I always throw out is The Punching Bag is Sean Levy's This Is Where I Leave You. Sure, sure.

A sitting shiver movie with a family comprised of Jane Fonda, Justin Bateman, Jason Bateman, Tina Fey. Adam Driver. Adam Driver, Corey Stoll, yes. No, no, I've never seen that film. Deeply Bizarre. That's on my site and SoundTap Town.

Of course. And then there's like 10 you know, ten Woody movies. Yeah, who? What? Which guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that becomes like his subgenre, right? Like I feel like he's viewed as one of the few guys where it's like, this guy makes Jewish

family movies. Yes. In a sort of sustained way. But he didn't make a lot of movies about his childhood. No. Well, there's Radio Days. There's Radio Days, there's the stuff in Annie Hall. There's a lot of movies about his childhood. No. Well, there's radio days. There's radio days. There's the stuff. There's a lot of stuff in any hall. Right.

But he rarely did that. You know, he never made the fabled man's reel. Radio days is kind of radio. Radio. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I do think there's some weird kind of like call is coming from inside the house thing with the way people reacted to this at the time. But not Millers.

Wait, wait, wait. No, when you were saying the sense of some accusations of this movie being anti-Semitic at the time. Or their general, because like also like again, John DeTurro who is 100% Italian. He's like a Sicilian guy. But isn't that Anthony Quinn mode of this guy has a lot of face, so we'll have him play every single ethnicity.

But also, it's like this quiz show, I feel like there's a Barton Fink. He had a big Jew run. Right. He was playing these kind of these Jewish characters who are often like perceived by the world to be very annoying in the movies. I mean, that is what Quiz Show is about. Quiz Show is basically just the whole movie is them rubbing their temples, being like, but he's so annoying. Like, we can't have this guy on television.

We can't. TV executives will literally commit fraud in order to get John Titor off television. Like, yeah, yeah, if it were radio, it would have been fine. Absolutely. And this movie is just like, you know, the problem is, if they just fucking shoot Bernie, is like, we're fine, right? Like, there's no plot. Yes, I think so.

I guess Verna breaks up with Leo. Or is Casper probably gonna like cause trouble anyway? No, I mean, there's still a movie probably, but it would just, but you know, but this is such a, like a, there are a lot of dominoes here. So that's just one, that's just one of the dominoes. I think the world around is acknowledging what you called out or sensing what you called out, which is like, is Leo getting a little complacent?

Yeah, and a little, he's soft. Is there an ability to grab the chair here? It just feels like there's an energy swirling around of like, can the hierarchy of power change in the DC Universe? Right. And Black Adam is just lurking around the court. No, what happens in this movie is like, Leo gets more power, knocks off his enemies, I guess gets married to the lady he loves,

at the cost basically of his buddy Tom being friends with him. He really doesn't lose, like it's actually, everything works out great for him. But also Tom is the one who... Tom takes a bunch of punches, Tom makes all this happen. Right. And like Tom sacrifices their friendship, I guess, or decides not to be friends with them anymore? There's this feeling for all of the internal conflict that the movie almost struggles all the way back

to the starting point. Obviously, a tremendous amount has happened at the center. But in terms of the key dynamics between the three people, they've all reset to where they were at the beginning. Well, it feels like Tom, by the end, you realize that Tom was ready to sacrifice everything to basically just win Leo the war, you know, like, like, like, Leo gets himself into this fix. And Tom doesn't agree with it. But every but everything that happens in the film is kind of revealed to be Tom, despite, you know, having misgivings there.

Like, you know, kind of putting himself in hot water to get Leo out of this. He basically has two great loves in his life that are almost equal, who are Verna and Leo. I would say his two great loves are booze and gambling, but yes. Drink and game. Right, but I mean, hisna. Verna is not loving He doesn't feel like a guy who's very good at being emotional. He's in love with her

It's not a loving relationship. He's definitely obsessed with her. Right, but that's what I'm saying in both cases Like the whole thing of him getting in the fight with Leo. Well, he loves Leo more I think that's what it is is that is that he he has really strong feelings for her, but He he can't you know, he can't allow it. The moment where she says, he's doing it, right, doing it. But he gets in the fight with Leo to say to her, I love you, because he can never say that, and even when she calls him out, he won't admit it. Right.

And likewise, the entire movie is his way of saying, I love you to Leo. Which he could never say verbally. And the moment he decides to actually shoot Bernie is the moment that his love for Leo trumps his love for Verna. That's true. In my mind, not to over-simplify it. He's also pretty fucking sick of Bernie at that point. That's a huge part of it. But there is this kind of like...

Also, Bernie has to die so that Albert Finney can go to the funeral and wear a yarmulke. One of the greatest decisions. It's just such a funny. Do you know what I love about that moment? I love imagining this entirely dramatic scene playing out and the Coens just laughing hysterically behind the monitor and we got Albert Finney

to wear a yarmulke, that it was the only thing they were paying attention to. It is the most justified, the entire movie you're right, is setting up just to get to that one image. But it's also, I mean, the emotional decision, like, I don't think Tom makes a strategic decision in not killing Bernie, right? Like, that is his heart or whatever getting the better of him. Don't you think? Yes. No, because if he was doing it for Verna,

he would have told her much sooner. He holds onto her for so long and lets her hate him. Well, no, I think he's doing it for Verna in the truest sense. When he says, look into your heart, that's literally what he's, she's in his heart. But he's not letting himself get any credit with her for doing that. Because, like, that scene is so iconic.

Obviously, it's the poster of the film and it's sort of the best you can Obviously, it's the poster of the film, and it's sort of the best you can remember. It's the title of the movie. It's the notion of what happens in this place in the deep woods. It's so funny, because it's like, yeah, he throws his shot away, and he's like, get out of here, I'll never see you again.

Bernie is back in ten minutes. Right. Do you think Bernie even, like, goes to another town? He just, like, doesn't walk around the forest. And he's like... Oh, yeah, he starts feeling embarrassed, and he's like, I don't like this feeling, fuck him. Right. What am I gonna do with my life?

Like I would have put like a grenade into restaurants. Right, yeah, yeah, that is a good threat, yes. No, that's what's so stupid about it is like, you can't trust this guy for a millisecond. He's gonna get so antsy so quick. Well, cause ethically he's kind of shaky. Yeah. You think Bernie?

Yeah, he's not, he doesn't have like a rigid moral code that he abides by or anything like that. I'm quoting John Polito just to be clear. Yes. There's one moment where they use the word glitch in this movie. Oh, interesting. Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. That's in No Country. Sorry, I was almost right.

Anyway, carry on. And Wreck-It Ralph. That's the movie you're thinking of. They use the term glitch. They do. Have you seen W almost right now. Anyway, carry on. And Wreck-It Ralph, that's the movie you're thinking of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They use the term glitch. They do. You seen Wreck-It Ralph, are you a fan of Wreck-It Ralph? Never saw it.

Princess Vanellope? Isn't that John C. Reilly? I'm a John C. Reilly fan. I mean, additional writing credit John C. Reilly as well. Think he did a pass on his dialogue. Maybe I'll watch it. Ben's number one hero. Dr. Steve Bruhl.

Yeah. Yes, okay, so Leo is, Johnny's basically saying, I wanna kill this guy, Bernie. Leo will not lift his protection on Bernie. And so a sort of mob war heats up in the background, which is mostly like them just fucking with each other's clubs

and Tom getting the shit beat out of him. I think the scene where who's the big guy who Tom hits with the chair? clubs and Tom getting the shit beat out of him. I think the scene where who's the big guy who Tom hits with the chair? Who's the actor? He's the guy from Dumb and Dumber. Exactly, like that is one of those guys. Wait, he's the guy with the most annoying sound

in the world? Yeah, and he's the one who goes, Jesus, Tom. Jesus, Tom. And just a little piece of trivia there, that gets cut out of the Criterion version. What, why? So my editor, Luke Johnston, is Joel's editor right now. Luke's been working with them since Buster Scruggs.

I know that they went back into the cut and they just took out a few things. And one of the things is him saying, Jesus, Tom Tom." Another is... -"That scene is so funny." Another is the woman in the Shenandoah Club who's like hitting... Who screams and... Goes, "'Ahh!' That I can see them being like, "'We're being a little too silly here.'"

Like, I can sort of understand losing that moment because it's almost like a Raising Arizona moment in Miller's Crossing. Raising Arizona, they do it in Hudsucker too, when... Yes, oh, right. When he says, when the guy splats, yes. Splats and there's the, the big lady

who screams. It fits there. It's always a big lady. Yeah. But isn't there also a moment in the Hudsucker at the party where he tries to speak, I forget what language it is, and says the thing that offends the

one so dearly they do the same moment again? In the what? In the? In Hudsucker. He's at, it's the Peter Gallagher party. Oh, well there's also the blue letter. Right. Where he comes in with the blue letter and we push into the screaming mouth of the greatest.

Of one of the women in the waiting room. Yes, the Paul Newman secretary. And then what's the one you're talking about? You're talking about? Maybe I'm confusing this, but there's at the Peter Gallagher ball. Oh, Peter Gallagher. There are the two like rich women. Yes. I feel like he tries to speak to the woman in like Dutch and says something that's a yes. Accidentally.

And yeah, right. He says something in I don't know if it's Dutch, but and then the woman is scandalized and she screams and the guy throws his martini in his face and punches him. Right. But it feels... That's a very Raimi-influenced thing. That feels like, right, the evil in the woods as the camera. Those moments where they go off. Yeah. In this really chunk of the movie, you have this sense of, like, everyone's still with Leo, the the cops and the political firm,

but Tom is sort of pointing out over and over again, like your support is kind of weak. The moment the cops come in and raid Casper's. Yes. No, but even his weird like hideout. Yes, right. His, his. Right, well I guess they had been doing.

His warehouse, right. The gambling. Right. Yeah, yeah. Just this feeling of there still are all these gentlemen agreements that are holding all these systems together. Then they try to kill Leo,

the Tommy gun sequence we talked about. I mean, that sequence is perfect. But it's after that that Tom admits to Leo, like, you know, Bernie is not worth it, Verna is not worth it. For example, I am having an affair with this woman. And they break. There's the earlier scene with Leo where he keeps Verna

in the room with the door closed and doesn't give it up. And at that moment, right, he creates the fissure. So why does he say it? Explain it to me. I'm dumb. I think in that moment, he is considering the possibility of prioritizing his own happiness.

Sure. I don't think he's committed to it. That was my read watching it last night. Or is it him being like, I have to break with Leo to like, whatever, survive or have him survive or anything like that. Like is, why does he reveal the affair to Leo? Or does he think Leo would be like,

oh, well actually then I don't like her, I love you. I think it's because he wants, I think it's because he knows he has to. Right, he needs to push away. Well, but he also needs, he needs there to be a story. Like he needs it to reach Johnny. Yeah, right. This is a real, like I'm not an undercover agent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. He can't just come over saying, like, yeah, we got into a fight. It's his real, like I'm not an undercover agent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. You can't just come over saying, like, yeah, we got into a fight. It's his departed. It's his like, look, would a guy go this far just to take down a whole system?

Man, the departed's so good. When are we doing Marty? What Marty would you want? It's your favorite Marty. I mean, I know- What Marty would I want? Yeah. Maybe Age of Innocence, maybe Last Semptation of Christ,

just because that one doesn't get talked about enough. Or I would say, I love Casino, I love Raging Bull. Love them all, I love them all. After Hours, King of Comedy. Actually, Silence, I think is... We've talked about this. It's fucking under... Yes.

Like that's one of the greatest films ever made and it doesn't get talked about that way. It's an astonishing movie. It does feel like it's weirdly been... It needs like another 10 years for everyone to sort of whatever, settle down and be like, right. Yeah, I would say Silence for me is his best film this century.

And you like basically all the films you made this century. Yeah, yeah. I love them all. I love Shutter Island. I love Shutter Island. It's amazing. And that's a movie about friends too. Irishman is incredible too.

Irishman is just great, great, great. There's that interview he did a couple years ago where he's like, in retrospect I regret making Shutter Island just because I'm getting older and who knows how many films I have left. Sure. It is such a-

Like that's the one you regret? Exactly. It's a proof of you operating at such a high level that you're like, Shutter Island was maybe kind of a toss off. I could have done something with my time. So fucking good. It's incredible.

But I really think that's a movie about friendship too, because that's Ruffalo being like, I made all this because I'm worried about you, buddy. I'm spoiling every movie. All right, so, okay, so, yes, he goes over to Casper. Casper is like, you prove your, you know, make your bones by killing Bernie. And he does, he can't do it.

And we've talked about all of this. I don't know why I'm going through this. He looks into his heart. He looks into his heart. And he sends Bernie on his way. And then I do feel like they must have gotten stuck on the last... Because that is when suddenly a ton of plot happens. How does this untangle? You have this sort of like the Dane who is Casper's right-hand man,

but has a thing going on with Mink. But Mink is obviously with Bernie now. And that's probably the chain of information that is the problem more than it, right? I want to call out something in the Miller's Crossing sequence, the first one, which is that it is the most iconic part of this movie. And I feel like it's a thing people cite as, like, a level of moment for Totoro in his career, of, like, how did he access this level

of, like, absolutely heartbreaking, pathetic vulnerability that is so uncomfortable? And then watching it last night, realizing 80% of that sequence plays out on Gabriel Byrne's face. So much of what Totoro is doing is not on camera. Most of his pleading is off-camera dialogue over Gabriel Byrne weighing it.

And it speaks to how effective what Totoro is doing that in your mind you almost correct it to being like four minutes exclusively on him. It's a great performance and it's a great scene because you really have... I was watching with my wife and she was like doing other stuff and I was like, by the way, they're gonna... This scene is gonna be impossible to ignore,

if that makes sense. Like, you can't even look at your laptop. Like, if you they're gonna, this scene is gonna be impossible to ignore, if that makes sense. Like you can't even look at your laptop. Like if you're just working while that scene is happening, you're like, Burn, can you just let him go? Can you shut him up? Like, let him go, I don't care. I just can't listen to him anymore.

Isn't this the part in the movie where they start the whole like shoot him in the head kind of runner joke? Yeah, one in the head. Where one of the head kind of runner joke. Yeah, one in the head. Or one of the henchmen is like. You gotta do it twice. You gotta shoot him once. It's such like gallows humor, but it's very funny.

And I love that it just becomes this recurring line. I'm gonna say one in the brain. Specifically, yeah. Polito really nails that part when he does it, when he kills the Dane. The Dane was written for Stormare, I've heard, which is crazy. Yes.

And he wasn't available because he was, like Peter Stormare was always like doing like the Swedish King Lear or whatever, you know what I mean? Like he has like this whole other life where he would come into America and be like, yeah, I'll play some Psycho for you. And then in Scandinavia, he's treading the boards.

But I think Freeman's great in that. He's so good. And Fargo ends up being like the greatest role you could ever write for Stormare. I almost think Stormare would have been... He is so innately odd that it might have unbalanced this movie a little bit. There's something about the Dane being fairly stoic.

Yes. The Dane's just kind of this rock. He's stoic, but he speaks more than Stormare in... In Fargo, yes. Than Grimsrod, where I think his only line is unguent. Unguent. Where's Pancake House? If the inverse is like Freeman can... I'm fucking hungry now, you know.

I'm fucking hungry now, you know. Freeman can deliver this much dialogue. If you're supposed to be set on this entire carpet. Freeman can deliver this much dialogue and still feel stoic and mysterious. If Peter Stormare is standing somewhere, you're just like, what the fuck is going on with that guy? Right.

Um, but there, you have this, like, the most vulnerable moment Tom is in, I feel, is when he gets Polito to kill the Dane instead of him. Yes. Right? Like, it's like, that's the sort of, like, shakiest part of his entire scheme is... is Polito's the most volatile, Casper, Johnny Casper's the most volatile element here, right?

Yes. And he has to basically convince him like, hey, no, your guy who's been with you for a long time is actually the guy double crossing you, not me. It's also interesting that so many of their films are people getting in over their heads who don't understand how complicated the situation they're in is that they believe they have all the angles figured out and the movie is constantly pulling back to reveal like there are 20 things they're not considering. This is all going to bite them in the ass. Because all this stuff is very simple. It's like he then handles Polito by being like

if I put him in the room with Bernie, one of them will kill each other. But this is one of their only movies. And he's like, and I figured we'll be Bernie because he's the more desperate and that he'll have the he'll know what's coming. Whether or not you believe that Tom has all of this figured out from the beginning is one of their only movies where the person at the center does have a handle on everything. He seems pretty smart.

Even if it's evolving. Right. Yeah. I feel like a minute one you're like, this guy's smart. Right. There are other films are just someone immediately gets in over their head and keeps digging deeper. They usually make movies about idiots. Yes. Or like you have like Frances McDormand in Fargo or Tommy Lee Jones in No Country where

you're like, this person is upright, but they're not really, they're coming in and viewing what's going on. Llewellyn Moss isn't an idiot, but he does understand what he's getting into. I think Llewellyn... People thought I was too critical of the characters in Blood Simple being dumb, but it's more that they're oblivious. You don't think well, I'm also... He's not an idiot, Josh Brolin in No Country.

He just makes some mistakes, you know? Bringing the water back out. I mean, even if he didn't do that, though, he still would have the tracking device with the... Right, he's fucked no matter what. And also the thing in no country is like, you could give the money back, it doesn't matter. And Tommy Lee Jones there is ineffectual.

Like he's... Or he's just like, I don't know what to do about this. Yeah, he's... I can't operate on this level, like this is exhausting. I think the defining feature of a Cohen idiot though is the confidence that they have it figured out. Yeah, then... Which Llewellyn doesn't have. May see every Clooney character, like whatever.

Right, I got this. Right, right, right. Pitt in Burn After Reading, the sort of like, I have every angle. Well, everybody in Burn After Reading. Everybody in Burn, like even Malkovich, like who thinks he's smart or whatever, like yes, yes. He's the one who at the end runs out of his house

in a robe with a hatchet. With a hatchet and chops George Clooney to death. Right. No, it's not Clooney. It's Richard Jenkins. Yes. Poor Jenkins. Jenkins is that classic co-ed, like they find him,

I think for, is it intolerable or is it man who wasn't there is the first time he works for them? The man who wasn't there, he plays the lawyer, the alcoholic lawyer. And I feel like they're just like, oh, we need to like, just put this guy through the blender every like they love Your friend, my friend Dormin brings him into Olive Kitteridge, which is great. Yes, whoever hasn't seen Olive Kitteridge that's listening in on this is a

That's a great It's a miniseries. I watched it at the time. It was on HBO. Yeah, it's great. Yeah Jenkins the King. I love Richard Jenkins You've never used Richard Jenkins. What's the matter with you? He's busy. He is busy. That guy works. He's been a little,

he hasn't really done much recently, but he played Jeffrey Dahmer's dad in the Dahmer thing. Oh, thank God. It's one of those things where you're like, where's Jenkins? And they're like, ah, fuck, he was busy playing Jeffrey Dahmer's dad. He's in season 12 of CBS sitcom called Rich.

He had one like leading role, like the visitor, right? The Tom McCarthy. He was great in. There was one that came out during the pandemic that was a Sundance movie that then went straight to drive-ins. That was him running like a restaurant.

It's called The Last Shift. Yes. And I know that because Divine Join Randolph is in that movie. And when she won the Critics Circle Award for New York She asked for him to introduce her and we were like why Richard Jenkins? She was like we did this movie together and we love each other and he gave the sweetest like most loving intro for her For a movie I would rooted in a movie

I've never seen the last shift that felt like a movie that people liked at Sundance and it was like this is gonna be one We'll talk about in the fall and then the fall was bad. It was 2020. Yes. Yeah. Could we just quickly shout out if we're going back into the plot? I love Polito's cousins, the twins,

trying to get the position. It's just such a stupid, silly little thing. And the mayor, and the mayor is just like, Tom, can't you tell him? Polito kicking the mayor out of his own office so he can sit behind the desk. Yeah. Polito's just extraordinary in this, and it is...

You know, I'll keep talking this series about Ethan's line about he thinks the defining trait of a director is tone management. And Polito is doing a different size performance than everyone else in this movie. And yet there is like a core humanity to what he's playing that stops it from being a cartoon character. And it's the biggest part he ever had. I mean even with the Coens, you know, he shows up, he's more of a sort of one-two scene player. He's pretty silent in Barton Fink. They use him basically as a joke of misdirect in Barton Fink to be like,

you're used to that guy yelling. Yeah, but Michael Lerner comes in and. Right, here's who yells at Polito. That's a great performance. Incredible. He's amazing. I had an experience working with Michael Lerner on Bo Is Afraid.

Right. I'll actually leave it at that. But he was. That was very near the end of his life, I imagine, because he died in 2023, yes. Yeah, but yeah, he's amazing. It felt like Lerner kind of got the praise that Polito should have gotten of the rolling effect

of the Coens building this type of character and the fun of watching a guy like this burst blood vessels and speak continuously for 10 minutes. Aren't Lerner's only two Coen roles, Barton Fink and Serious Man? Like, is he in another Cohen Brothers movie? Because him and Serious Man is such a funny end to his collaboration, where he just walks in the room and kills him. Yes.

I think that's it. I don't think he's in... Yeah, he's not in any other cohen. With the pipe. He's got the cohen stuff. Where they're like, he's figured out the... And then he just fucking... Where he comes in with all the papers. It's one of my favorite gags of that movie. So, the So Miller's crossing yeah, you know a bunch of shit happens I will just do these like precision turns though within a monologue like the density of the language

It which is so precise and so often playing out in these long takes and then he will have like six emotional swings within it and it never feels like he's pushing and there are moments where he's doing like sketch comedy-esque moves of like sitting with his jaw hanging open in like disbelief like sort of like cartoonish shorthand of visual representation of an emotion and yet he's still making it feel like this is a real person and a person who is a credible threat. I think he's just like extraordinary in this. I love Olek Krupa.

He's the guy that you call him. Right. Yeah. Yeah. He's he's he's great. Bernie's or set's roommate. Right. Yes. Yeah, I don't know. Michael Jeter's in this movie. Didn't clock him in. And Danny Aiello, I also didn't know. No, no, no, no. It And Danny Aiello, I also didn't count.

No, no, no, no. It's Danny Aiello III. That's why. It's Danny Aiello's son. Okay. Who is one of the cops. Got it. But not senior.

Right. No, I was looking for Jeter and I don't know where he is. I don't either. Yeah. Yeah, apparently he's like one of the gangsters. We just always like to do a Jeter corner. I like that old, the captain, the old guy. The police captain.

The police captain. Yeah, that guy's great. Yeah. That guy really gets made fun of too. And like, he's making a good fucking point. I'm like, you know, Tom's too hard on him. Even the way Tommy has a relationship with the cops every time they show up is a funny gag too.

Where he's just like, good to see you bud. And he just like strolls out. That's also like the Irish cops. Either rain or wind or snow. That's the mailman. That's so good. No, but there's like the tribalism vaguely of like the Irish cops are always going to side with the Irish gangsters.

It's better that they're running the crime. They'd rather that be it. Right. This film was right, also, right, this film was initially called The Big Head, which is supposedly like the nickname for Tom Reagan. That is a good title. Miller's Crossing is a better title for this movie. I would like to see- Miller's Crossing is a great title

for a painterly gangster epic. I would like to see a movie called The Big Head. Sure. I want that to exist. Ari, is there anything in this movie we haven't touched on that you want to talk about before? You know, I just, you know, I don't want to like bring us into the box office game and such before, you know, because it is so rich with little details. Yeah, I don't know. Let me see. The last scene is like something of a nod to the third man.

Yes. No, definitely. Yes. And the third one is always a great way to end the movie. Yeah. I think like, you know, having everyone kind of take stock and be like, I guess we're not one is always a great way to end the movie. Yeah. I think like, you know, having everyone kind of take stock and be like, I guess we're not friends anymore is a great way to, yeah, definitely. Just like a long forest road where somebody's walking towards you and then walks right past,

which is a little different than, it's a little different here, but it's definitely evoking that. But you also have Tom tilting his hat down and then the camera kind of swooping up under him to be able to catch his eyes. Yeah. And staying on Gabriel Byrne with the saddest

eyes in the world. What's he going to do now? It is my favorite kind of ending. Is he going to just drink like one billion gallons of whiskey and die? My favorite kind of ending in movies, period, is character goes through a whole insane thing, they've made it out the other

side and then the ending is, what the fuck do I do now? Yeah. Anytime someone pulls that card, it works for me. And Gary Berne is like a perfect face to do that with. Yeah. Yeah. And I think just going back to the third man, I do feel like that a lot of their DNA is there in that film. They've talked about that film being important to them, but I mean,

even just the eccentricity of the score in that film. The zither. Yeah, the zither, and then the opening, uh, the opening narration, which I believe is Carol Reed speaking. Oh, sure. Which is, you know, Graham Greene, you know, writing. Uh, the irreverence of that opening narration in The Third Man just feels like, uh, it just, it just feels... the irreverence of that opening narration in The Third Man

just feels like, it just feels important for them. Yeah, and the friction of these elements shouldn't be put together. This is not the normal way to tell the story, right? I just remember, yes. There are a lot of filmmakers I would say are very important to them, like Lubitsch and Billy Wilder. Mm-hmm.

Preston Sturges, obviously. Like, they cannot shake Preston Sturges. No. Or should they? No. And then the third man especially just feels important. Carol reads so weird to me because he's made a bunch of great movies. He also won Best Picture for Oliver, which is not a film that was a kid.

But I doubt one of his better movies. I'd say three especially great movies. Like Third Man, The Fallen Idol, and what's the other one? And Odd Man Out. Right, those are, and like, and yet like- And they're all Graham Greene. Right, and Third Man is correctly venerated, but I feel like he is not talked about

in the sort of whatever, Great Directors of Azira- The Fallen Idol might be my favorite. Fallen Idol is so good. One of the best kid performances ever. I just remember seeing Third Man for the first time after hearing people talk about it so long and that so much of the framework was also and obviously one of the greatest film scores of all time.

And I'm seeing these noir images and Orson Welles and the hat and the tunnel and all this stuff. And in my head I'm like, oh, I can imagine what the score is. And then the movie starts, as you said, with this like jaunty narration and this zither music and that immediate feeling of, this is not what I think the tone of this movie is supposed to be. How is that going to get to that point is the kind of thing

that feels like animates the Collins. Also, Joseph Cotton's kind of like bumbling buffoon. He's so good now. As a, like the audience surrogate being something of a buffoon is important for them as well. Joseph Cotton, the John Goodman of his day, you know why? Why? Never got an Oscar nomination.

Oh. It's like one of those guys where you're like, he's in like half of, you know, 12 and masterpieces. John Goodman of his day, yeah. No, fair enough, to the hat point. I'm glad that I got you with that Just yeah, no, it's good. I was trying to the math on that. Did he ever play Roseanne Barr's husband? Yeah, if you live long enough his last movie is Heaven's Gate. I think like he doesn't live. Oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, just cuz you invoked lube itch

There's the famous lube itch anecdote that I don't think ever made it into a movie is always retold as like a great example of the lube It's touch but I think was in some development session Where they were had like four pages of dialogue of a couple fighting to show that the love had gone out of their marriage An older couple and then he said scrap all of that. They're in an elevator He's wearing a hat a younger woman walks onto the elevator and he takes off his hat He's wearing a hat a younger woman walks onto the elevator and he takes off his hat Wow, and you're like it's one of the greatest like fucking show Don't tell examples of a thing that maybe never made it to screen But I kept thinking this while watching the movie last night and the importance of the hat of just like it's not that the hat

Represents something it's that the hat can Be a communicator definitely what people put on the hat is the point. And if you get your hat knocked off, you're vulnerable. Right. You feel vulnerable, you're exposed. The movie kind of uses the hat in a similar trope of like, right, that's when you've lost your status. Do you think Tom's good at sex?

I think he's really bad at it. You think he's really bad at it? Yeah. He's not good at talking. I think he has to be good at sex. This is what I'm saying, he's a bad communicator. I think he has to be good at sex. I think he has to be good at sex Otherwise, no one cries for one hour after he has sex. I think during but he lasts the full hour

So you got a way that? Sorry for throwing that out late. Okay, I'm a choker There's just so much buried in that man. There's so much rage and feeling. I think he's a clean line. Oh yeah. What you see is what you get with Tom Reagan. He's an easy hang. Like imagine fucking watching a baseball game

with that guy and you're like, get me away from this person. Imagine his like fucking Manosphere podcast. He just sits there and let the other person talk. He's like, mm. His energy in the scene. Tom likes to watch, I think, actually. Yeah, you're right. You're right.

And he actually... He's kind of got the cock chair in his apartment. He does have a, yeah, a cock chair. Yeah. I'm glad we said cock chair on this episode. Hey, it's part of the legacy of our show. As I've said about the hotel cock chair, where else is the chair supposed to point? Hotel rooms just have a bed in them.

Correct. You know, everyone makes fun. You know what I'm talking about? R18 or something. There's always the one plus chair in the hotel. You go to a hotel room, there's always a bed in them. Correct. You know, everyone makes fun. You know what I'm talking about? Ari, do you know what I'm talking about? There's always the one plus chair in the hotel. You go to a hotel room, there's always a chair pointed at the bed.

And it's like a perfect 45 degree angle. And the joke on the internet has become like, that's the cuck chair. That's the cuck chair. You gotta paint, face it to the wall. Like, I mean, like it's just, it's not a big room. Some hotels have like a Sibian in the bathroom. Yeah, absolutely.

That's important. Yeah, the good ones. We're gonna play the box office game, Ari. If you don't know, we're gonna, girlfriend is gonna try and guess the films that were the top five at the box office when Miller's Crossing came out, which was October 5th, 1990.

So when does Goodfellas come out? Because Goodfellas is early in the year, isn't it? Isn't Goodfellas like March or April? It was September. I should note also that this, Millers Crusty opened the New York Film Festival this year. Okay. And generally I think was treated with a lot of fault roll.

So was Goodfellas in the top five? No, yes, it's number five. It's number five at the box office. Where does Millers Crusty go? Dances with Wolves maybe? Dances with Wolves, maybe? That's very late. Dances at Summer. Dances with Wolves comes out December, right? Dances with Wolves is not on this list.

Okay, so okay, number one in the box office, Griffin. It's new this week. It's an action film, stars an action star, a new action star. Die Hard. Not Die Hard. Is it Seagal? It is Steven Seagal.

And here's the challenge, name his third movie. It came up in box office game, The Website the website the other day and it completely foiled me. It's the one with Kelly LeBrock I think it is It is not fuck. It's not above the law. It is not above the law, which is his first film right? It's very good and It's not the one with Kelly Rock, which is his second film which is called hard to kill right? Which is a great title this movie is called tell me how many words it has in three He was a three word title guy is it blank to blank no It's blank for blank out for justice there. We that's a great guess. Oh, that's wrong. That's his fourth movie fuck

It's not out for job for justice is the next year and that's the one with Jerry Orbach. Yeah good movie Uh, it's bad. I can't remember. Is it cars for kids? Uh-huh It is directed by Dwight little who made you know The fourth Halloween movie and murder and 1600 a lot of glory. I do little trashed H little Yeah, you're a rose for Emily And I've never seen I've never seen this movie because I feel like I would remember the movie with Keith David is the second lead. He's probably having fun.

It's called Marked Marked for Dead. Marked for Death is the name of the film. There we go. There you go. I almost got there. Number two, the box office griffin is a re-release of a Disney film. Old classic. It's an old. Yep. Give me the decade of its Disney film. An old classic. It's an old. Yep.

Give me the decade of its original release. 40s. 40s. Early. Early. Early 40s. Early 40s. So it's not, okay, so it's Snow White,

and then Pinarca, and then Princess. It's not Bambi. No. Is it a Princess movie? Nope. No. It's an animal movie. Nope.

It's a weird one. Fuck. It's a weird one. Fuck. It's a weird one. It's not, it's not an animal. It's not a princess. It's a weird one. It's not Fantasia. It sure is Fantasia.

Okay. Um, yep. Fantasia. Do you like Fantasia? The movie does have animals in it. I love Fantasia. Do you like Steven Seagal? I forgot to ask.

Do I like Steven Seagal? Not his work. Do you like his personal life? I like him as a person. I think he's a good guy. His values, his physical appearance. Yeah. I mean... No, I don't. I don't. Let's just face it.

Fantasia, I do love. Fantasia's great. Fantasia's amazing. Number three is a psychological horror film starring one of your favorite actors. Is it Pacific Heights? Yes. Bing bing bing.

Michael Keaton is the scary guy. Movie I watched for the first time last year, like quite a bit. Melanie Griffith, Matthew Modine. John Schlesinger. That's right. It's got a stacked supporting cast. Everyone in that is like a fucking five star actor.

Mako. Yes. Laurie Metcalf. Yep. Carl Lumbly. Tiffy Hedren's in this? Yeah, everyone's in it. You seen this movie? What's this? Pacific Heights. Yeah, I've seen Yep. Carl Lumbley. Tiffy Hedren's in this? Yeah, everyone's in it. You seen this movie?

What's this? Pacific Heights. Yeah, I've seen Pacific Heights. It's fun. Pacific Heights is great. Number five is Goodfellas. Number four is another of the big hits of the 1990, of the year 1990.

Giant smash hit. It's not gonna blow. One, two Oscars. It won two Oscars. Yep. Is it City Slickers? No. Come on now.

Give me another. Romance. It's a romance that won two Oscars. Major categories? Yep. It's romance. It's not pretty woman. Nope. Weepy. A weepy romance. Sad romance. Is it Ghost? It's Ghost. Oh yeah. Jerry Zucker's Ghost. So Ghost must have been out for a while then. That was a July film. I've been out for four months. Because I know that that was crushing. That was the movie of that year. Absolutely. Yeah. Alright, you've also got. Box office. Because I know that that was crushing. That was the movie of that year. Absolutely. All right, you've also got Postcards of the Head

from the Edge, which has been out for about a month. Flatliners, Joel Schumacher's Flatliners. You've got Narrow Margin. Is that a JCVD? Peter Himes film with Gene Hackman. Narrow Margin is actually pretty fun. What is that? It's a remake. It's a Gene Hackman thriller. Gene Hackman. Neural Margin is actually pretty fun. What is that? It's a remake. It's a Gene Hackman thriller.

Yeah, Gene Hackman and Anne Archer. What is, is he a lawyer or is he a cop? He's an LA deputy district attorney trying to keep a murder witness safe. I like the sound of that. And I'm sure he's very even-keeled. Yeah, right. You've got-

Bad but fun. Right. Ninth you've got opening is a neo-noir called, oh, the Michael Cimino movie, Desperate Hours. Right. Like late Cimino. Oh, yeah. With Anthony Hopkins and a normal Mickey Rourke. Huge bomb.

And then Funny About Love, the late Gene Wilder movie. Directed by Leonard Nimoy. Yeah. That's a weird... Gene Hackman, is the poster him with a clock on his head. Yes. That's right Yeah, just a biological clock is ticking or something. Yes. I think he's an old dad It's the premise of the movie sure you said one. I haven't seen funny about love No, I feel like that's one where the people who worked on it were like, yeah

He just seemed really sad like he didn't want to be in a comedy. I think he did it right after Gilda died. Maybe All right, we're done. When did Miller's Crossing Open? You didn't say this. Like number 50, it's like, you know, in one screen or whatever. Okay. Yeah. It ended up at...

It made like $4 million. It was unfortunately... Got zero Oscar nominations. Which is crazy. But it is Forever Young. It is! Forever Young. But it is... Yeah, they're a few a few years off from their real Oscar breakthrough. It is a forever movie though.

And Barton Fink will get two, yeah. But then Fargo is the breakthrough. Ari, thank you for being here. Ari, you have to catch a plane, you gotta go. Thanks for having me. I'm sorry we took up so long. Eddington, one of the best movies of the year. Ben and I saw it and had a great time.

And by a great time, I mean we were thrilled at the level of panic attack we were having. I recommend it to everybody. I think it's- Please see it. Yeah, yeah. Yes, please. Especially in the theater. Funny and exciting and thought provoking. It is good to be locked in with that movie.

I mean that as the highest compliment. Absolutely, yes. And thank you for being here and thank you for doing this. And I wish you a great long sleep as this press tour comes to a close. Thanks for having me. Yeah, can you take it easy? You know, take it easy.

You're good at that, right? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. You're kind of a max. Chillin' out? Probably won't. Playing some video games. You love video games?

Sorry. I don't play video games. Donkey Kong Bonanza? I don't. Pauline is back? Does that move the needle for you? All right, all right, all right. Let's get Ari out of here. Might just go to that hotel with the Sibian.

Oh my God. And that's your plug as well, right? In multiple ways. Thank you for being here. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Tune in next week for Barton Fink with our friend Chris Weitz returning to the show.

That's right. And as always, better stop giving me the fucking high hat, David. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Bardy Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon.

This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithey. Research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Olly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help.

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