Blank Check with Griffin & David - Munich with Emily St. James

Episode Date: April 10, 2017

Emily St. James (Vox) joins Griffin and David this week to discuss 2005’s Israeli espionage thriller, Munich. But is this movie’s lasting legacy being a reference in Knocked Up? What does it mean when Jeffrey Wells leaves behind his hat? What was with those sex scenes? Together, they go on the record with Oscar picks, examine Eric Bana’s career trajectory, ponder when Spielberg lost his virginity and go off on a tangent about the film Crash.

The world was watching in 1972 as 11 Israeli athletes were murdered at the Munich Olympics. This is the story of what podcasted next. Wait, what? Is that the tagline? That's the tagline for the movie. Great tagline. Wow, what a somber beginning.

Yeah, I mean, that's... Hey, everybody. I'm David Sims. My name's Griffin Newman. All right, all right. We got past it. This is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. Yeah.

This is a show. We're hashtag the two friends. That's very important. I almost forgot that. We're two friends. We host a podcast together. That's our competitive advantage. It's unique.

Yeah. That's the secret we crack. Yes. I'm looking at quotes from you now. That's proprietary. But we talk about movies on the show. We like directors and filmographies. And looking at the context of what happens when someone has a massive success early on.

They become a brand and they get a series of blank checks. It's funny that you're doing this for Spielberg because it's not really the premise of the Spielberg podcast. No. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby, and sometimes you save up enough checks that you buy a studio, you found a studio with two other really rich guys, and then you just make whatever the fuck you want. Yeah.

This is a main series about Stevie Spielberg. Yeah. It's called Pod Me If You Cast, and it's about Spielberg in the DreamWorks years. And this is kind of a midpoint. This is kind of a fulcrum film. I guess so. It's a fulcrum film? I'd say maybe

this is like the halfway point of our miniseries. Of our miniseries. It probably is. I'm not cracking the hard math on this. Yeah, it's about there. I think it's about there. And this is an interesting one because the film we're talking about today is munich yeah um and uh it's a two hour 45 minute laugh riot it's long yeah uh it's it's serious political

spielberg one of the modes he goes into it's sure spielberg which is it's the beginning of right of that new genre right um but the other thing with this film was this was part of this phenomenon that we keep on talking about when Spielberg tried to do a two for a year. Yeah, well, three and two. I call it a three and two. Three and two. Why do you call it three and two? Because it's, you know, Lost World, Amistad, Saving Private Ryan. Three movies in two years.

Oh, interesting. And then AI, Minority Report, Catch Me If You Can. And then this time it's Terminal, War of the Worlds, Munich. Three and two. Interesting. Three and two. Yeah. I just think he keeps on gunning for this one specific thing, which is within one year, can I make a huge blockbuster and a huge Oscar

film? And this film is paired up with War of the Worlds in its year. And they're interesting because both films are closer to the middle. Yeah, they're both very, very grim. Right. They're both very, very grim. Right, they're both very, very grim. And Munich is pretty violent and action-y, not in like a cathartic, popcorn-y way, but for an Oscar movie.

And War of the Worlds was pretty grim and bleak for a popcorn movie. Yeah, not much action. Mostly just people turning into clouds of dust. And War of the Worlds made a lot of money, but mixed response and wasn't the number one movie of the year. And this movie got a bunch of Oscar nominations, but didn't win any.

And it's one of his least seen films. Yeah. But it's an interesting film. We have a very exciting guest on the show. You're supposed to talk before we introduce you or interrupt us or make some annoying comment. I thought you'd yell at me. I'm a very good boy. This is the most polite guest

we've ever had on the show, perhaps. Usually people are jumping in. They're hot takes. They're cold takes. The Redditors are going to make a politeness ranking. Yeah. And he'll be number one. Yeah.

You know I'm from the AV Club? Back in the day. Back in the day when the two of you were bosom buddies? Yeah. We still are. Yeah, we are. We're still really not as tight as you two, but really good friends. I would say that we are.

Hashtag really good friends. Let's make it clear. I'm not trying to argue that David and I are best friends and that there isn't room for other friends. It's just an empirical fact that we are the two friends. I'm not saying we're better friends than anyone else. I'm not saying our friendship is better than anyone else's friendship. We are friends and there are two of us. That's a fact.

Can't argue with it. We're the only ones. And the two of you might still be bosom buddies in spirit, but you used to be suckling at the same bosom. We did. Is that what bosom buddies refers to? I think so. I believe that if you think of the AV Club as a giant wolf. Yeah, right. We once both had separate wolf teats.

We were like Romulus and Remus. And now we have different wolves. That's true. And your new wolf is Vox. Vox. Vox. Vox. Yeah, it's less of a wolf and now it's a...

Vox. It doesn't. I was going to make a fox joke. I don't know what it is. Yeah. Remember how at the end of every episode of Buzzing Buddies, Peter Scolari and Tom Hanks would recount what happened in their day while all sucking at the breasts of a wolf? Yes, of course I do.

Todd Vanderwolf is our guest today. Made one of the biggest hits of the 80s. One of the biggest hits. Todd, thank you so much for being here. I'm so happy to be here. Hi, Todd. I've been on your podcast many times. You have, you have. Is it dormant? I suppose it's dormant. It's dormant, yeah. I mean, Libby and I keep thinking we're going to relaunch it.

It's called TV on the Internet. It's still on the Internet, and you can still find it. And it's still about TV. Yeah, it's still're going to relaunch it it's called tv on the internet it's still on the internet and you can still find it and it's still about tv yeah it's still about tv uh but but yeah it's dormant now because libby works for a print publication and so they're not they're yeah yeah they're all they're weird about the internet so yeah um what was i gonna say well you're here to talk about movie i am and you're in town. I am. You're from the city of angels. Yes. La La Land, which at this point is probably one best picture. This episode won't post for a long time.

At this point, everybody's fucking sick of that movie. There's been a backlash. There's been a backlash to the backlash. Can we do this actually? Oh, you want to? I'm going to say Moonlight. This will probably post in like March. Yeah, I know.

I'm going to say Moonlight. You say La La Land and let's not talk about it for the rest of the episode, but let's just pick our bets. You're calling a shot. You're saying Moonlight's going to- I'm calling a shot. I'm saying Moonlight. You're saying La La Land.

Todd, what do you think? I'll say La La Land as well. I don't think Moonlight has the juice. I just don't. I mean, we like the movie, to be clear. Once again, I mean, look, I'm on the record as having Moonlight as my movie of the year. I just, I sense a surge coming in like January. Well, right now we're recording in December.

This is going to look hot. That's what I'm saying. That's why I want to put the chips on Moonlight right now. Because I'm sensing a January, February surge. But this is very low stakes because like. Who fucking cares? Yeah, like in March people will just be like, oh, well, he was wrong. Yeah, right.

Whatever. Or they might be like, you know, we must join the resistance. Oscars don't matter anymore. Who cares what happened at the last Oscars? Anyway, sorry. I mean, if I was really courageous. I don't mean to joke about

whatever horrible shit might be happening in the future. If I was really courageous, I'd put my bet on a movie that no one's talking about now where if it loses or doesn't even get nominated, then it'll look like

it was just a joke and if it wins, I look like the single smartest man in history. It's the old Shakespearean love trick you pulled. Right. Yeah. And for that reason, I'm predicting that Collateral Beauty takes home seven Academy Awards.

But all technical. All technical. The film is a work of technical precision. All right. So, Todd. Yes. We've known each other a very long time. Yes, yes.

And we met as Oscar prognosticators actually way back in the day. On the message boards? On the message boards. On the boards. I've heard of these fabled boards. Yeah, we used to ride the boards. Yeah, yeah. Tread the boards.

Yeah, tread the boards. Tread the boards, yeah. And I remember 2005. What was the hot movie of 2005? What beat Munich? I don't even remember. Crash. Crash.

Lost to Crash. Brokeback Mountain was. Was the hot movie. It was the one to win in Crash. What? Lost to Crash? Brokeback Mountain was... Was the hot movie. Was the one to win in Crash. What a weird Oscar race that was. Kind of a muted Oscar race now that I think about it. It was, I recall, the first year in a long time that none of the movies had scored more than 100 million. 100 mil, yeah.

And that was considered a big shocker. Well, Brokeback was the highest grossing and it did 85, right? Yeah, because you had some sleepers in there. Crash, obviously, was a summer movie. It had built a little. Good Night and Good Luck, Capote, these very glum movies.

It was a dour year. Yeah, very washed out. It was the year of Katrina. It was the year of the post-Bush. 2005. We were in the thick of Katrina. It was the year of like the post Bush. Yeah. Yeah. 2005. So we were in the thick of it. What I remembered. Yeah.

Is that Todd loved Munich. I love time. Yeah. And when the words Munich bubbled into my brain and Todd bubbled into my brain for our podcast, I was like, oh, Todd's got to talk about Munich. Well, here's what I remember about the Munich thing, because I wasn't. Yeah. I might have been lurking those boards. I was certainly checking Oscar sites all the time time i was i was deep in it um i i remembered there was

a narrative because both war of the worlds and munich got pushed in production very quickly right um and munich was like he had been thinking about making it for a while and then suddenly it was like he's making it it's a three-month schedule they're shooting it in the summer it's coming out in the fall like it was edited very people almost couldn't believe that it would actually make it out because it seemed like yeah it seemed so hard to turn it around it got screened very late i think they started production in like june it was like kind of crazy um but that gave it this kind of like mystery box heat of like spielberg's got this burning sure And of course he's making a historical true story movie.

Like surely that'll be a big deal. And this has been like his Oscar zone before. And I remember he had a cover story of Time Magazine. And I forget what the headline was, but it was like, you know, Steven's back, you know,

Steven Spielberg's secret important film or whatever it was. And the narrative I kept on seeing repeated in the press leading up to the release of the movie was like yeah i know steven spielberg has two best director trophies but he wants three i kept on saying like yes he's the most celebrated and successful director of his generation but howard hawks had four you know like it was like that kind of thing which was the least sympathetic narrative of all time but i remember people being like like, he's going to drop this movie. It's going to come out late and it's just going to fucking sweep. Because Brokeback at that point was like the one to beat.

But you can already. People were like, oh, it's so sad. It's, you know, like, is the Oscars, are they ready for a gay movie? Which they ultimately proved they weren't. Right. And Crash at the time was like, oh, I guess it's going to get nominated. It has its fans. Right right but it didn't seem like it had the juice to win I mean when you think about

Crash Todd and when you think about Todd Crash yeah it is crazy Crash Bandicoot's also in the studio today it came out to bad reviews Crash came out to very mediocre reviews there were some people I mean Roger Ebert loved it yes he did and he stumped Floyd the whole time it's true

but New York Times and LA Times both described it, right? Yeah, they both trashed it. And Variety and Hollywood. They trashed Crash. But it was sort of a surprise hit. And it was like it's one of those LA things where people get very excited about here we are on screen.

It's very weird. It's that thing of like, oh my god, this movie speaks to what we're going through as a nation. It's like, God, this movie speaks to what we're going through as a nation. It's like, no, this movie speaks to what you're going through as a voting member of the academy. As a Hollywood executive. Yeah. Being asked to cast people in movies. Yeah. It was a movie.

As Tony Danza. It was a movie about racism made to assuage rich white people. Yes. That they weren't that racist. Right. Which is the academy. Didn't Spanglish come out the same year? Year before.

2004. 2004. There's a lot of real white guilt movies written by established Hollywood people who were obviously wanted to wrestle with issues, but could not find the right track, not find the right way to do it, and probably shouldn't have been the people doing it in the first place. But I think, yeah, post 9-11, in the middle of two wars, I think there was a lot of like looking in the mirror and being like, are we the fucking bad guys? But ultimately going like, nah, not really. Right. Like all those movies kind of went like, eh, I don't know.

And Munich's interesting because Munich really is like wrestling with that. It has no need to answer. Well, Munich's actually good. Right. Right. As opposed to the other movies. I mean, this is kind of the start of a really dark period of Oscar Best Picture winners. I mean, Crash is not an especially dark whenever you get departed.

You've got No Country for Old Men. Crash is pretty dark. You've got Hurt Locker in there. So it's like this list of movies that are like, you know, we've abandoned the American ideal. Well, I guess we might as well die. And it is interesting. Even Swamp Dog Millionaire, which is the feel-good winner of 08, that's a dark movie. Yeah, and then The Artist, which is a feel-good movie, is also a fucking silent film.

We have this run where for a number of years, none of the Best Picture winners are traditional Best Picture movies. They're either a traditional Best Picture kind of narrative in very unconventional trappings. When do you think it swings back around? Well, King's Speech in 2010, I think, is the outlier. That's a classic Best Picture movie. That could have won in 1950. Right, and then I think it swings back around? Well, King's Speech in 2010, I think, is the outlier. Sure, because that is. That's a classic Best Picture movie. That could have won in 1950. Right, and then I think it swings back.

I don't think it's swung back, because then you've got Birdman and Spotlight. I think it's still like... I think Argo's kind of a classic Best Picture winner. I do. Argo's a slave. No. No, it's a thing.

They've made some wild choices. They've made some wild choices. Assuming La La Land wins, it will be. But if Moonlight wins, and you're the genius... And I's the thing. They've made some wild choices. They've made some wild choices. Assuming La La Land wins, it will be. But if Moonlight wins, and you're the genius. And I'm the genius. Or Collateral Beauty. Yeah, you're hedging, but with Collateral Beauty. I'm hedging my bets.

Yeah. I love Oscar talk, guys. I don't know. Me too. It is funny, though, because Munich, I feel like, Todd, correct me if I'm wrong, the reception in Munich was so muted and confused. All over the place. Yeah, so all over the place that it was almost surprising when it did eventually, it did get to the Moscow,

it got nominated for picture, director, screenplay, score. Everybody thought it was good. Everybody thought Spielberg would get nominated, but the movie would get edged out by Walk the Line. Yes, Walk the Line was the big. And it didn't get a lot of precursor, the Golden Globe shit. It was that weird arc of, oh, it's going to be the surprise sweep of the whole season. Then people saw it and they were like, I don't know what the fuck this is.

They were like, forget it now. Then they assumed it wasn't a contender. Too weird. Then it got a bunch of major nominations, didn't win any, and it just kind of like, well, the prize was being nominated. Like, no one ever viewed it. I think it was probably the least likely to win in the eyes of most people of the five films. Yeah, although people did start beating some drum that was like, oh, you know, Jews. Like, it is weird how sometimes people will just be like, you know what? When we're talking about the Oscars, we can just sort of say out loud that they like Jewish things.

Like, you know, it can get a little uncomfortable. But no, but this movie struggled with the perception that it was anti-Israel. Yes. As well. Yeah. Which is also kind of crazy. And sort of a less prominent, but also from the, what was the American left at the time, which was very small. But sort of the counter-criticism of it was too anti-Palestinian.

Of course. Right, right. Which is, I mean, as they say, that's a good thing, right? Yeah. When you're getting criticized from all sides. I don't know. In this movie's case, I think. I think so, too.

You know, this is a thing I like in movies, which is doesn't try to provide answers, try to ask you questions. It's like a fucking Rorschach test movie in a lot of ways. You know? The characters are, I remember, I think it was Manolo's arc, it might have been, I don't know, Scott, but the New York Times review of Munich when it came out, which was very positive, and was one of the more positive ones I remember reading

at the immediate release. I'm finding it. The headline, I think, was something like, and you're probably going to now find it. I have it right here. Do you want me to say it? I think it's an action movie about the importance of talking. An action film about the need to talk.

Yeah. It was Dargis. Yeah, which I had not seen this movie until last night. I somehow didn't see it at the time. But for years, for the last 10, 11 years, I kept that in mind. And watching this, it really kind of is the best description I've heard of

the movie. That's what it is. It's this action movie that has no visceral pleasures to it, because it's a bunch of people in a very conflicted situation. But it's still, Spielberg still makes that action pop. That's the fun of him. He gets you into it, and you're like, oh, this is and then you immediately, you're like, oh my god

though, why am I enjoying this? Well, and it's, it's that adage of like, you know, all war films are pro-war films. Like, violence translates well to cinema. Oh, sure, sure. You know, it always kind of glorifies it to a degree because it's kinetic. And, but, but I think this movie works so hard to frame every action sequence, whether it's kind of a pop boiler tension sequence or an exciting cathartic or whatever it is.

It's so conflicted with everything it's doing. I think it humanizes almost every single character you meet in the entire film, you know? Even the characters who are speaking a foreign language without subtitles, you get a real strong sense of like that Greek guy in the movie. Yeah, yeah. Like this is a real person.

No one's just like collateral damage in this movie. Yeah. And yeah, it is. Collateral beauty though. Collateral beauty though. It is a movie about like conversations. And it reminds me a lot of The Conversation. Interesting.

I think stylistically. I had not watched it since it came out. Is that right? Yeah. Oh, okay. I saw it in theaters. It was my favorite movie of that year. And then I saw it on DVD and I put it aside because it's, you know, what are you going

to make two hours and 44 minutes? I almost bought it and I was like, I'm probably not going to rewatch it even if I buy it. Sometimes you're just in the mood for a nice Thursday Munich. But all of the scenes I remembered were like quiet conversations, like the conversation in the safe house with the Palestinian guy. Yes, absolutely. And the conversation with Papa. I remembered those scenes.

I did not necessarily remember the visceral action sequences, which are there and are great. I remembered one of the – I remembered one of the, I remembered the, and I forgot how the hostage, how the recreation of the Munich massacre is done. And I remembered that very viscerally. And then in the movie when it starts

and you only see a second of it at the start, I was like, oh, maybe, did I like, I forgot that it's the dribs and drabs. And then of course I forgot. I remember the sex scene. Everybody remembers that. And I remember the talk about the sex scene. That was the other thing this movie, this movie has a very intense

strangely shot, we can talk about the sex scene later. It's also kind of like the only full sex scene of his entire career. It's true. Spielberg doesn't shoot a lot of sex. Right. I was like running through my head and I was like, what's another Spielberg movie? With like an actually intimately shot sex scene. I don't know.

And it's got two, essentially. Yeah. And then you also have the whole thing with Marie-José Crowe's, which is just like, even nudity you don't

usually see in Spielberg movies. Certainly not in a sexualized context. And it's got Kieran Hintz's dick. You see Kieran Hintz's shadowy penis. You do.

That is a thing you see. Gotta talk about it. You see a shadow cast tallywhacker of Kieran Lane. No, but I just feel like the sex scene's right at the end. A lot of people came out and they were like, I don't know, it has this crazy sex scene that's really bad. And that suddenly became the Munich problem.

Yeah, I tweeted about rewatching it, like half the tweets were, what about that sex scene? It's such a weird, crazy notion. But think that the reason spielberg never has sex scenes is because when spielberg has sex he's imagining like a perfectly framed and shot action sequence like that's that's that's his experience and wide close what yeah you know yeah for sure i'm trying to there must be a sex scene i mean i was trying to think of one other one you know and then when i'm trying to, there must be a sex scene in this film. I mean, I was trying to think of one other one, you know?

And then when I was trying to even just think of like, what are other Spielberg movies with nudity? It's like Amistad and Schindler's List. Like he only shows nudity when it's in like, service of like human atrocities, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

And I understand like the biggest nude scene in this movie. Catch me if you can. That must have a sex scene in it. Doesn't it? I feel like it has scenes where they're like jumping on beds. It has sexy scenes. It has like underwear. I remember that movie and we will have rewatched it by the time this episode comes out, but

we're recording out of order. I remember that movie cutting away before the sex ever happens, or showing people in bed right after sex who are mostly close. You know what? So Spielberg's a bit of a prude, but hey, he shot a sex scene. That was one of the reasons why- Sweat goes everywhere. Everyone was so surprised when he gave

the palm d'or to blue is the warmest color he was like and I loved it he was like very yeah this movie's great yeah

good for him I mean you're forgetting the big sex scene in Lincoln oh that is true just walking around naked yeah

he's got the stove by bat over yeah okay alright look Munich very serious film. Yeah, War Horse 2 has a lot of sex scenes.

Munich. Yeah. So it's about the 1972 Munich Olympics. Right, as I covered in my introduction to this podcast. Right. And the Black September hostage situation that went wrong and everyone died in a Palestinian terrorist organization

took hostages. I mean, Jesus Christ. Do I have to go through this? Bad scene? It was a bad time. One day in September, the Kevin McDonald documentary which is very good and very, very intense has an interview with one of the Black September survivors.

I think the only surviving member of the attack, maybe. It's a good movie. If you guys ever want to check it out. Whatever happened to Kevin McDonald? Didn't he do like a YA movie with Saoirse Ronan that barely got released? He's made a lot. Yeah, he did. He's made a lot of weird feature films since he switched over.

Yeah, very strange. Because he made like Last King of Scotland. Yes. Right. But then, yeah, he's made a lot. Holy cow. Yeah, he switched over. Very strange. He made Last King of Scotland. He's made a lot. Holy cow. He keeps working. State of Play. Remember that? Oh, right.

Remember The Eagle? Yeah. That's what people need. Oh, the Channing Tatum. Yeah, Channing Tatum, Roman caper. He made something called Marley. I was at Bob Marley documentary. How I Live Now.

That's the Sir Charon one. And apparently he worked on that James Franco time travel TV show. Oh, he directed 11 and 63 or whatever. No, that's right. He did do that, yeah. So you guys are blushing right now because he's a superstar. Yeah, this guy's killing it. What a weird.

Yeah, okay. And yeah, he made that submarine movie with Jude Law that didn't come out in America. Oh, that's the other it. What a weird... Yeah, okay. And yeah, he was in that... He made that submarine movie with Jude Law that didn't come out in America. Oh, that's the other one. Black Gold or Black Sea. Yeah. All right. I don't know why we're talking about Kevin McDonald.

I mean, I know why, but... He's our next subject. So, but I mean... The least listened to miniseries in history. But... Yeah, seriously. So we start with a brief recreation of the beginning of that hostage situation. We cut to the biggest star in the movie.

You know her name. Tell me her name. Ayad Zora? No, what the fuck's her name? Who plays Golda Meir? What's the... Lynn Cohen. Oh, Lynn Cohen.

Lynn Cohen. She's Golda Meir, Prime Minister of Israel. Yeah, she's really good in this. She's great. It's one fantastic scene. Yeah. And she's like, we gotta, you know, how are we going to respond to this, essentially?

Because what happened was quickly a lot of the surviving Black September who were arrested got released because of another hostage situation, the Lufthansa crisis, if you guys know. Yeah. So, like, everyone was mad and, you know, so, yeah, how do we address this as Israel, as Jews, as, like, people under attack? What are we going to do? Going back one step. Sure.

I do think it's interesting that in the opening recreation, a lot of it is retold through news broadcasts. Yeah. Yeah, right. As the score is playing and stuff. Not just archival footage, but watching a lot of different people across the world watching the story be covered by different anchors and different outlets.

Right. And there was this thing where like the briefly all the reporters thought that it was resolved what like that the hostages were OK. These terrorists were dead. And then they realized, like, no, they're all gone. There's that. Is it Howard Cosell? Who the hell is it who announced it?

Because it was he was there for the Olympics. Right. And he says they're all gone. And it's I mean, it feels weird. Jim McKay says Jim McKay says they're all gone. Right. That's why. And he says they're all gone and it's, I mean, Jim McKay says we're all gone. Yeah. Crazy. It's really interesting. 1972.

Bizarre footage, but I also think it immediately frames, you know, people would expect, I think, especially out of Steven Spielberg making a movie out of this subject matter, that he would give you a nice tidy way to interpret everything that happens. Sure. Right. You know

here's how you should view it and especially when it's someone who has been such a big supporter of Israel throughout his life. Right. I mean yeah. I mean we're watching all these different people watch the story be covered in different ways and it kind of sets you up to think like

okay we're going to be given the news the straight facts that sort of way and then from then on out the movie is on the ground floor with people who don't really know what the fuck they're doing and are wrestling with it and we don't really deal with the media again after the introduction. No and I also like that we're focused on

one team of this operation you know that they organized Operation what's it called? Sword of Vengeance or something crazy like that. Wrath of God. It's a very focused movie. They're not trying to cover the entirety. And then only at the end of the movie do we realize this was not the whole operation.

This is just one team of essentially assassins or spies. Toymakers. Toymakers. Toymakers. Danish antiquity what's the word for when you decide how much money something costs?

Appraisers? Appraisers, yes. Yeah, no. Just one team that is killing. Kieran Hines' shadowy penis. It's just a team an oddball team. And the man attached to it as well. He came along with it. Oh, right. He's in it. I forgot about that. I forgot that he's in it.

He's so good. He's so good. But come on, guys. Lynn Cohen. Give it up for Lynn Cohen. Yeah, great performance. Great performance. I do remember that when people first started seeing this, I think it was like David Poland

who was like, oh, Lynn Cohen, there's your Oscar winner. Watch out. If Lynn Cohen was in 25% of this movie giving that performance, like, sure. Yeah, sure. Let's talk about it. It's a very strange call. It's just the one scene. Can I throw some real inside baseball for one second? Yeah, sure. If I were a rival studio and there was like, you know, a front runner who I felt stood in the way of my contender, I would hire David Poland to say that they were going to win. That's the easiest way to knock someone out of the running is for Dave Poland to say that they were going to win. That's the easiest way to knock someone out of the running

is for Dave Poland to go, they're going to win. That's good. Thank you. Inside baseball, done. David Poland, though. Thank you. Shout out to Poland.

Shout out to Poland. Okay. All right. I already told Todd this. I forgot to tell you this last week, and again, this is months after the incident. Jeff Wells emailed me.

What? Isn't that crazy? This is the most- Okay, so context for our listeners. Jeff Wells is a troll who lives under a bridge on the internet and pokes people with a stick and just spouts lunacy. He's done many terrible things, but by far the weirdest is when he thought he had reserved a hotel room with a hat. Yeah. You can go and find that online if you search for it. Do you not know this story? Wait, he thought the hotel room came with a hat?

Okay, I gotta tell this for one second because this is the best story of all time. And even if you don't know who the fuck we're talking about, this story is objectively funny. He looks like he looks like Christopher Walken cosplaying as a vampire, right? Oh, I've seen him in real life. He looks like an aging Penny Marshall. Right, right.

He's a misanthrope. He's a misogynist. He thinks, like, we all should be tough, tough guys, right? Right, right. He's very into, like, masculinity. He's the Zen samurai warrior poet. Isn't that his thing he always throws out? I think so, yeah.

Emotionally vivid. Right. And he does shit like he'll, like, you know, warrior poet isn't that his thing he always throws out so yeah emotionally vivid right so he and he does shit like he'll like you know have a tinfoil wrapped piece of cake that he'll bring to a restaurant and then he'll ask if they can serve him a plate so he can eat the dessert he brought from home and then get angry when they tell him he can't bring his own dessert into a fancy restaurant right but the story was he was at sundance where rooms fill up like super quickly far in advance people have to book their rooms at Sundance because it's not a huge city.

And the desirable hotels that are close to where the theaters are, hard to come by. He had a hotel room. And when he left and he checked out, he put his cowboy hat on the desk on the counter and said, I'll be back for this next year. And when he thought that was enough? A year later, he arrives at Sundance and goes, Jeff Wells checking in. And they go, you don't have a room book. And he goes online. Do they have his hat? Yeah online yeah I mean I think they had to dig through it they went we don't that was that was the further insult was he went well what about my hand they went what fucking hat but he he went online he went if a man leaves a hat on a counter it is very clear

deadwood like yes that's the problem Jeff Wells is he thinks he's living in Deadwood. He thinks it's constantly a last stand for masculinity. And his small movements say volumes, speak volumes. But he's a horrible person. Yeah, he's bad. Anyway, he got mad at me because I mentioned Casey Affleck's legal issues. And he got mad at you for that? In an Oscar prediction piece. Just brought up the fact that this has been coming up.

That it's a fact and it's a case that's been public for five or six years. He was sued for sexual harassment. He settled out of court. I said something like that could come back to haunt him in the Oscar race or something like that. He said that I was

falsely equating his boorish behavior with Nate Parker. How dare I? You know? Yeah. And, yeah, the thing that, Affleck's thing, direct quote, was nothing compared to the Parker thing or the Polanski thing. Tedious and unwelcome behavior that he paid to settle. Yeah, nice use of the word thing.

Much less match the agonies and upheavals associated with Parker. This is my way of addressing it, Todd. Because I asked you what to do and you were like, don't email back. Don't email back. Also, you know what? Maybe let's not sit around and rank which sexual assaults are

worse or better than others. I'm just realizing that sometime in March I'm going to get a tweet that's like an aging Penny Marshall and you'll be like, what the fuck is that? He does listen to this show and he's going to be our guest on the Tintin episode. He also once, and I think more than once, but

one time very publicly emailed James Mangold, director of 310 to Yuma because there was a scene where actress Vanessa Shaw was naked but covered and he believed that there must be on-set stills of her fully disrobed and asked her to just

pass along the stills. Which is a thing that maniacs do. And somehow didn't kill his career. I mean, he's self-employed. What is his career? Exactly, right. He has such an odd career. I don't understand how he gets access, he's self-employed. What is his career? Exactly, right. He has such an odd career. I don't understand how he gets access,

he gets money. He apparently lives a jet-setting life. I love that we're going this deep into Jeff Wells in the middle of Munich. That's enough. I'm sorry that I brought it up, and we can cut it if we go too long here, but I just had to tell you. That's important for our listeners to know that

a cowboy hat is not a binding reservation. Not at a restaurant, not at a hotel. Also comes up in Munich. Comes up in Munich. It does. Emotionally vivid cowboy hat. They trace the cowboy hat back to them. That's how they know.

So, Eric Bana. Yes. The actor Eric Bana. And I was looking through. Eric Bana, what a rapid rise and fall. It's weird. And I got no beef with Eric Bana. I think he I was, you know, I was looking through Eric Bana. What a like rapid rise and fall. It's weird. And I got no beef with Eric Bana. I think he's excellent in this movie.

I don't know if you guys agree. I think it's a very good actor. I agree. Yeah. But it is funny how like, this is the, this is it. This is the end of Eric Bana as a movie star.

This was like third strike. You know, you're, you're at bat. We're giving you three to be a leading man. And it was like Hulk. Hulk in 03. People hate that movie.

Troy in 04. Right, which did really well, but people didn't like it really. Not well remembered, I guess. And he certainly didn't really stick in that. Although I'd say he's pretty good in it. I think he's pretty good in Hulk too. I think he's pretty much good in everything. He's excellent in Hulk.

I mean, Hulk's a weird movie. A masterpiece, I think is the word. Exactly. And then Munich. And then, yeah, after that, like, Lucky You two years later. The Other Berlin Girl, which I like Eric Bana, but he's horrible in that movie. Yeah, I can

imagine. And he's the villain in Star Trek. Oh, remember Eric Bana? And then Funny People that same year. And the Time Traveler's wife. Right. Yeah. And then, you know, now he's just kind of floating in. He's not gone. No.

He was in The Finest Hours. He was pretty good there. And he's and Eric Bana. Not bad. Although he has like a Texan accent or something. Yeah, it's terrible. Everyone's accents in that movie are real fun. Well, it is a weird arc because he was an Australian comedy star. Yeah, he was in

The Castle and he had a sketch show. Yeah, he did sketch TV and sitcoms and he was really funny, but he was this conventionally good looking guy and he usually was funny upending that. He kind of was doing a twist on straight man stuff. Then he does Chopper. Chopper is his big break guy. Australia's

most notorious serial killer who killed three people. I mean, Sam Rogal, past guest on this show, always said, like, that shows you what Australia's like. This is the worst criminal we had. Three murders. And he's like a live wire in that movie. He gained a bunch of weight. Yeah, looks great.

And he plays this very charismatic, very terrifying person. It's weird that then everyone shifted to going, oh, this is a bunch of weight. Yeah, looks great. And he plays this very charismatic, very terrifying person. It's weird that then everyone shifted to going, oh, this is a conventional leading man. Well, no, but you got to remember, then he's in Black Hawk Down, which he's fantastic in, which is more of like he's playing like a tough, chiseled soldier. He looks great. He's really intense. I love him in that movie. But that comes off of Chopper.

Yes. No, but I think, but then. I remember seeing Black Hawk Down and already knowing at that point he had been cast as the Hulk. I know, but like, right. But like, they see that and they're like, right. Yeah, like, this guy's hot. Yeah.

This guy's handsome. But yeah, he's really good in Black Hawk Down. He gets the final monologue and he kind of nails it. That's great. Hoot. He plays Hoot. Yeah. Hulk was supposed to be.

I was trying to get Todd with that one. I got him. Do you know who was supposed to be Hulk? Who? Billy Crudup. Which is why if you look at Ang Lee's Hulk, the Hulk looks like Billy Crudup. I swear to you. Like a grumpy Billy Crudup. Yeah, it's got Billy Crudup's face.

I swear to you. Sure. Eric Benner gets slotted in very last second. Oh wow, this is huge. Yeah, right. I mean, it's like, okay. You know, X-Men made Hugh Jackman. Right. Spider-Man at the time, it felt like Toad Maguire was now made

and then he didn't really do movies. Oh, and he's a weird little weaselly guy so he's never going to be anyway. But it was like here's a new anointment

and then people hate that movie. They hate that movie. But Troy was already running. Yeah, you know Troy makes money but nobody likes Troy and then there's this.

Right. And this I remember This is supposed to rebrand him as like a serious guy. That was the thing. This is going to be a him as like a serious. That was the thing. I remember people being like. This is going to be a lady role.

Okay. He tried to do two summer blockbusters and they didn't really work. But now this is who Eric Bana is. He's an Oscar perennial. Yeah. And then you see him in this and he's really solid in this, but it's not a very showy part. No. I mean, his job is just to kind of hold the movie.

Yeah. I mean, it's not an Oscar nomination type part. No. This was a year where they had to go out of their way not to nominate him in Best Actor, and they did go out of their way not to nominate him. Let me, let me. This is Hoffman, Ledger. Hoffman and Ledger and Phoenix.

Strathairn. And Strathairn, yes. Yeah. And then there's the fifth nominee. Is it Hustle and Flow? Yeah. And like, Strathairn and Terrence Howard, they both were kind of on the outside looking in. I'm very happy for Terrence Howard's nomination in that movie.

He's great in that movie. He's terrific in that movie. Yeah. But you're absolutely right. They also didn't nominate Viggo Mortensen. Got a lot of good actors that year. You know, Keanu Reeves and Constantine. Like, that's no joke.

That's a really good performance. Michael and Murano in Sky High. We're talking these were the guys who were like 6, 7, 8. You know? Keep going, baby. Nicolas Cage in Lord of War? Yeah. Remember that? Was Weatherman that year?

Maybe. It might have been. It was either 05 or 06. I would have nominated Nicolas Cage in Weatherman, no question. 05. Remember he had that bow and arrow. Yeah. 06. I would have nominated Nick Cage in Weatherman, no question. 05. He had that bow and arrow. Yeah. I mean, I would have put Christian Bale in Batman Begins for Griffey. He's terrific.

I think that's the one Batman movie where he has a full performance because they give him a real arc. It's a great performance. He's amazing in that. Yeah. Anyway, the movie's called Munich. It does not feature Batman. So Eric Bana plays Abner Kaufman, who is a made-up character, and yet they keep talking about his dad as like a war hero. So I guess he's supposed

to be burdened by some kind of patriotic responsibility that he wants to live up to. Can I just quickly point out that none of the three major actors in this movie are Jewish. I want to say Daniel Craig's Jewish. He's not. I looked it up. I know, but I just want him. I want him for our team.

This was one of two Angry Jews Get Vengeance movies that Daniel Craig did. It's true. And yet he's a fair-haired, blue-eyed, you know. Blonde Brit. Steely Brit. Born in Chester, Britain. Nothing reads Jewish about him. I had to look it up because I was like.

He's of French Huguenot ancestry. He is not Jewish. No, no. I'm not offended by it. I'm not saying that to bring up a stake, but it is a little bit like- Ten years earlier, you would have this guy as the racist in Gandhi or some kind of African. He'd play an Afrikaner president. The bratty student in school ties or

something. Like, he looks like the bigoted antagonist. If you believe the Holy Blood, Holy Grail theory, the Huguenots are descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene, and Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, but I have a question for you. Was Mary Magdalene? Because it's through the mother. It's through the mother.

She was. She was. Alright. Then we're cool. Fair enough. I think you're correct that she was. Although the Jews at the time were not happy with her. Yeah. I just like that they picked like three actors, like an Australian, a Brit, and Geoffrey Rush is Australian too, right? Yeah. And Kieran Hins is Irish.

Right. Yeah. And they were just like, I don't know, just get guys with weird noses. No. I mean, they get these guys who, I mean, not Daniel Craig, but Kieran Hens, Eric Bana, like, they have sort of a, like, a Sephardic look, necessarily going to be like like the daniel craig character was fair-haired so that was their out for it yeah i mean i don't care but they're all fictional characters anyway so uh they are all fictional i guess they're like composites right yeah so they could have just done whatever they want but uh matthew kasowitz i will point out he is jewish and

he's the one who played a jew La Haine in his breakout role. Which he directed as well. No, he directed that. He's not in it. No, it's Cassell. It's Cassell. Yeah. And then he directed Gothica.

Yeah. Don't forget. Then he directed Gothica and won the Oscar. He is unsurprisingly my favorite character in the film. He's terrific. So I'll say, they assemble this team for Avner, and it's assembled by Ephraim, who is Jeffrey Rush, who is his sort of handler, who is terrific.

What do you think of Jeffrey Rush, Todd? I'm a Jeffrey Rush fan. Me too. I like him here. And let's go a little more background. Eric Bana is kind of a straight arrow guy, but tightly wound. His wife is like three months away from giving birth. He's got a pregnant wife

who he likes to have sex with. Right. But also love of country, you know. Likes to have sex with the country too. Yeah, he loves talking about country sideways while she's pregnant. Absolutely. So they assemble this team

and it's a South African driver. I guess Daniel Craig's the wheels guy, I guess. I mean, he's just sort of your number two. Yeah. His name is Wheels Hershkowitz in this movie, isn't it? His name, I think, is like Steve. It's not like really like a Jewish warrior name. Steve Blonde. Steve

of the Maccabees. Guys, me and Griffin are joking. We can do all this. You've got Matthew Kasavitz. He's a toy maker and a bomb maker, I guess, as a result. Although, I like his performance a lot. This guy is a shitty bomb maker. Terrible, but that's what I like about him. He makes three bombs.

One of them works. One of them is too powerful, and one of them blows him up. He's not a great... They maybe should have combed Israel a little harder for him. What I like about him is, the movie acknowledges that, right? I also think he's kind of in his own inspirational Disney underdog movie,

which is, like, the little bomb maker who could. He just, everything's against him, but he just believes someday he's gonna make a great bomb. This is also unquestionably who I would play in this movie. Right? Because I always play that game where it's like, okay, who would I play in this movie? I just, I chew that shit up so hard little little little frenchie jew toy maker yeah that's me you

kidding me i i so who would i play who would you play you play wheels or school yeah because i'm sort of a fair-haired jew no i think you'd be i think you may be kieran hines well kieran hines uh carl yeah he's i mean he looks like like an accountant, but I think the idea is that he's a former tough guy Mossad soldier. He's someone who's got some blood on his hands. He's a regular Gal Gadot type. I don't know what that means. Gal Gadot, former Mossad agent. Which is pretty crazy.

Awesome. I always like to point out that Wonder Woman has almost definitely killed people. Jesus. Awesome. I always like to point out that Wonder Woman has almost definitely killed people. That's true. Probably. Then there is Hans, played by Hans Zichler. He's the sort of blunchy guy. Yeah, the Danish antiquity guy.

He's great. Who is that guy? No idea. Where the fuck did they find him? Yeah, everyone's great. I would say everyone's great in this movie. But like, I mean, I'm looking out. I mean, mean he's a german actor he's in some german stuff i don't know what to tell you he's great i think he's terrific and he's you know this is this is the thing i like about this movie and the part that's like i think left over from eric roth's script is the scene where they're like here's what everybody's job is and then the movie just utterly just forgets about that it doesn't care This is not a movie that is process oriented.

This is not a movie where, I mean, like we get through osmosis and through some dialogue that like they're going to Matthew, Matthew Almaric's character, what's his name? Lewis. And like he sells them information and they use this information to, but like it never says like, who are these people they're trying to kill? Who, like, what do they do? Why are they, you know, it's all vague. Like you would think there would be a script where it would be like, it never says, like, who are these people they're trying to kill? Like, what do they do? Why are they, you know, it's all vague.

Like, you would think there would be a script where it would be, like, you would maybe be watching someone. Then it would cut to a black and white photograph. And then they'd be, like, looking at the table and they'd be, like, there's, you know, the jackal. You know, he killed eight Israelis in a bomb. That's why we got to kill. You never do that. Captain Boomerang, deadly foe of the flag. Like, it feels like you could do the

Suicide Squad Amanda Waller explanation for every character in this movie. It's a two hour, 45 minute movie. It's not like they didn't have time to do it. But it shows you that's not what he's concerned with. So it was Eric Roth's script first? Yeah, he wrote the original script and then Tony Kushner

did Punch Up, which was apparently just basically a page one rewrite, as you can tell. Right. Is it? Right. And then, of course, they're both credited. They kept Roth's structure, so they had to. This is a pretty cushy script.

Yeah. I think we can all agree. Yeah, I mean. And he never worked with Roth again, or before. Really? Roth has got a weird career. Yeah. Because he wrote Forrest Gump.

Right. So, obviously, that's his sort of, like, eternal calling card. But he also wrote, like, The Postman and, like, The Horse Whisperer. Cool. Like, a Forrest Gump. So obviously that's his sort of like eternal calling card. But he also wrote like The Postman and like The Horse Whisperer. Who? Eric Roth. No, I was going whoo. It sounded like who. Who?

Yeah. If you guys do an Eric Roth miniseries, I'm there for every episode. You want to be in there? You want to be in there for a movie he wrote called Jane's House. Oh, no. It was a TV movie. Well, I was reading. But he also, of course, wrote The Insider and Ali.

He worked with Michael Mann a lot. He wrote Benjamin Button. Well, I was reading an interview with Spielberg because I've just been reading a lot of Spielberg shit recently while doing this podcast. Cruise and Spielberg apparently came close to doing Benjamin Button years earlier. That would have been weird. Really weird. That would have been a weird movie. But in that period of time where they had been dying to make a movie together.

What a weird movie that is. Weird movie. I love that movie. That's a great take. Love that movie. I haven't heard that take in a while. I like that movie a lot. I think that movie's due for a reevaluation.

Yeah, because I was thinking about the movie and I'm like, I saw it and I remember it's about a little old man who turns into a sexy young baby, but I do not remember the movie that well. I was just seeing Hidden Figures and I was like,, yeah, remember when Taraji and Mahershala Ali, they were married in Benjamin Button like eight years ago? Yeah. And now they're flirting again. They're flirting up a storm. In Todd's least favorite movie of 2016, Hidden Figures.

It's fun. I don't hate it, but yeah. I think you kind of hate it. I'm not as gung-ho about it as David. It's his favorite movie, 2016. Absolutely. Banging the drum. I find Benjamin Button really interesting

because I think people at the time wrote it off as this is failing to be Forrest Gump. Yes. Like they were like, this is what it's aiming to do and it doesn't hit. And I think it's a movie that is not concerned with being emotional. Yeah. I think it's a movie that is not concerned with being emotional. Yeah.

I think it's a very existential meditative movie. I need to rewatch it. It's David Fincher's Wes Anderson movie. Right. I feel like people at the time were like

this is an Oscar movie from Fincher. Like Fincher's usually all fucked up and like he just you know played it safe to get an Oscar nomination and I think that's

I mean a huge misread of David Fincher because he would never be interested in that kind of shit. He'd just come off as Zodiac. I think Benjamin Button's safe to get an oscar nomination and i think that's i mean he was just a huge misread of david fincher because he would never be interested in that kind of shit yes he'd just come off as a very cynical movie yeah i mean it's it's about like how sort of inherently doomed this guy is to live alone right sure um and i also think it's it's like pointedly bottled in all of its emotions i mean he holds away from all the big scenes. And I also just think like he's so unconcerned

for a guy who's so meticulous about thinking through the reality of what happened or recreating things. He's so unconcerned with the logic of the situation that doesn't really make any sense that he's using it in kind of like, you know, an abstract expressionistic way to get at these ideas of just like a man out of place and out of time. But was it a better expression of that concept than the fourth season of Mork and Mindy where

their child was played by Jonathan Winters as Murph? I mean, I'm not sure about equal. I do. I think they're very similar. This is why you get Vandiver. This is why you get VDW. They're bosom buddies. Those two things.

It's also I think that movie is interesting because of how little narrative effect the lead character has. Yeah. Like, he just kind of wanders through shit. And rather than Forrest Gump, it's like, but he was at the right place at the right time. It's like, no, this guy just kind of wandered through life, and he never really fit in anywhere. Yeah. But guys, what about Munich?

Oh, right. We're talking about Munich. So he assembles his team. I mean, like you said, like, and I know we say this on the podcast all the time. The plot is, there's no plot. It's vignette-y. It's very, very vignette-y. It's a series of, yeah. It's a series of quote-unquote missions, but they're not connected.

It's almost nightmarish, this movie, in terms of how it kind of, like, just barfs out some new scenario that's, you know, always, like, morally very muddy and confused and, like, completely isolated from information. Like, we don't know who's this nice he goes to the nice italian like shop and he likes the clerk lady and he you know he's buying some sausages like we gotta murder this he looks like a fucking playwright he doesn't look like so you know he's in like a tweed suit you know go on no that's uh what i was gonna say you were talking about the lack of sort of exposition explaining who these people are, what they have to do and that we're just sort of seeing. Structurally

this movie is actually kind of similar to something like Elephant. Where it's like this repetitive, like we're going to see them understand what they have to do them doing it and then sort of processing it afterwards. And it's that sort of in a series but in this kind of I mean almost abstract way because you're not giving that much context.

And I think what's interesting about that is you're kind of knowing as much as they would know in a way. I mean, sure, they had probably briefing a little more information, but it also is like you're forced to look at these people. They're about to kill the same way they would in a situation where there's that gout of like are they they seem like a nice guy this is just a dude in a nice jacket like why would i have to kill this right well that that first scene of the first assassination where it's arabian nights guy or is that yeah that's yeah yeah with kasavitz and vana are pointing the guns at him and they like don't even want to fire even though they know it's him right and that thing where he's like sort of like he's like no no no and he's like trying to push uh kasowitz's gun down he makes all the violence feel very real like the bullets like the gunshots are very loud

and kind of jarring and not it's like not poppy you know not hollywood but also it is kind of exciting one of my favorite shots in the movie is on the balconies at the hotel. Oh, yeah. And it's Bona standing there and then there's his target and the next one over and then there's a couple that's just fucking all the time. They're so good.

The canoodling, the classic canoodling couple. Do you think Steven Spielberg at this time was just like, really like, man, everyone's getting laid. Like he was just really like He just got into sex

for the first time. But yeah, there's a, and so, so it's kind of shot in, it's shot in wide and deep focus so you have all these like different little stories playing out in the same shot right and it's just bana talking to this guy and it's like you know you're still early in the movie so you're still like yeah these guys are gonna get these terrorists but like it's every shot even

underlines that these are like human beings right that maybe they maybe they were responsible for this horrible atrocity but like they still probably don't deserve to be blown up in a hotel room. With no trial or no, you know, presentation of evidence or anything like that. Well, if you had scenes with Jeffrey Rush giving him the dossier and explaining who everyone is and what they did, then you as an audience, because that scene would then have to quickly, because it's a movie and there's a finite amount of time. You're like, great, I get it.

I get it. This guy's bad. I know how to view it i'm not gonna have any sympathy for him right but in real life if you were handed a dossier like that and then you had a little time to think over it and then you see someone in real life part of your job is like making sure they're them so you kind of talk to them for a minute and you're like oh you know what's up right unless you're a sociopath you're gonna have some feeling of like are you sure this is the right guy are you sure they did it? Yeah. They seem decent.

And by robbing us of those sort of explanations, the movie forces you to be in the same position that someone like Eric Bana would, which is like looking at the gestures these characters are making, how they're interacting with other people, the little glimpses we get of their lives and being like, this doesn't seem like someone who needs to be assassinated. Yeah. Which makes it all upsetting and kind of terrifying. Well, then also that assassination, right, is the bed bomb, right? Yeah. And so that's the one that almost blows up the sexy couple,

and they make sure that the sexy couple's okay, and they're all obviously completely traumatized. She can't see that. She can't see. He also, he shoots, I feel like, every, he shoots and cuts every sequence of this movie with the same amount of tension. So you feel as nervous in the scenes where someone does actually end up doing something as the scenes where nothing happens. Like he's using the language of thrillers and of tension to like when you're watching him have the conversation with the guy and the couple there, you don't know if anything's going to happen in that scene because he's been ratcheting

it so much consistently that you're like this might be a misdirect when also there's this like they suddenly the couple they're so in love with each other that they like bang into a shutter or something and it makes a noise and it like startles him and right you're it's such an edgy i remember i saw this already doing fake outs on you right i saw this in a theater and I just remember it being this like very jangly, edgy movie that's like, you know, the explosions are all very visceral and like not fun explosions. I don't know that there's a director working who's better at making you feel exactly what he wants you to feel than Steven Spielberg. And this movie is just like constant paranoia.

Right. And that's why I guess why he gets hit with manipulative. Yeah. But like that's manipulative means that you can like see the strings really easily and you feel manipulated. Right. And that's why I guess why he gets hit with manipulative. Yeah. But like that's manipulative means that you can like see the strings really easily and you feel manipulated. Right. Like, you know, like you're just like, oh, you're just trying to get a rise out of me. And Spielberg's.

He's effective. This is no monster calls. Yeah. Boom. Roasted. Yeah. Is this movie about Steven Spielberg losing his virginity? The more I think about it, it feels like someone who just had sex for the first time

and can't stop sharing details about, like, as if they've already had sex. Like, hey, you know my favorite part of sex is, you know when you're sexing somebody, you're just so excited to join the table and be able to have those sexing conversations? Well, also, when he had sex with someone, he had a feverish image of the 1972 Munich massacre

of the Israeli athletes. Right. He was like, I guess that's... He called up Kushner and he was like, can you write a movie about this weird sex dream I had? And he's like, that's a real thing that happened. So, but we should say, as this is unfolding once in a while,

as Banda's character's sleeping, I guess, and this is a bit of a Hollywood storytelling device, but he has these visions of the hostage situation of 1972, which are also very grim and very... And similarly, there's a similarly amateurish quality,

sort of on both ends, which I like, that mirroring. Bona's team, they seem like a bunch of middle managers who've been given guns and elusive names and go kill people. And the hostage, the Black September, the the terrorists they seem like they don't know what they're doing right you know like half the time they like just sort of like fire their guns wildly because they just know like they're in trouble or right or like you know something has to happen i

don't know like it's all very chaotic and they're really scary scenes the uh the hostage can we talk about the the safe house section in the middle of the movie? This is Todd's favorite. No, you refuse. Because it's too perfect? You don't want to... No, we can talk about it. With Papa, you mean? No, when they are at the safe house that Louis has sent them to, and

the Palestinians are also there, and they listen to Al Green's Let's Stay Together. They do. No, right. That's a great scene. The only song that can affect world do. No, right. That's a great scene. The only song that can cure, that can affect world peace. Yeah, right. If only we could have that at the table right now. Just Al Green.

Is he? He's dead. No, he's not. Al Green's still alive. Is he still going? I think he's still alive. That conversation he has. Still going.

Yeah. Smoking. Yeah. With the Palestinian guy is so fucking good. It is. Because it's just like, oh, this is like an infinite feedback loop. this is something that can't be untangled and that's something the movie is reinforcing throughout which is like again bonnet doesn't know what's

happening to the in the outside world that much but we're hearing like look you know you kill these terrorists more terrorists just sort of pop up even more radical terrorists often you know because you're martyring people and you're you know you're making this a war and like so yeah the next soldiers are even scarier than the last one so very early in the film a lot of the time when there's a foreign language and it's not important to the plot it's not subtitled but very early in the film they go to this lecture from a woman who's talking about uh in german i believe she's like babbling yeah she's she's talking about how you need to get beyond concepts of good and evil and like see the systems that are oppressing you and all this

stuff. It's very Tony Kushner. It's like he just randomly dropped in somebody from Angels in America in the middle of this script. And I love the fact that she's saying that and I think it's Eric Bana and Matthew Almaric are meeting in that scene right? And he's like what the fuck is she saying? He's like I don't know. I never know what she's talking about.

She's like dispensing this sort of almost accidental profundity and uh and anyway here's 60 grand yeah and that like becomes the like lodestone for the movie like the north star like everything in the movie points toward you need to get beyond seeing good and evil right and understand that like there's it's not even like shades of gray it's like they don't exist like you've invented a dialectic that is pointless right and if you can't get beyond that you can't like see anything clearly and that's sort of what that safe house scene says to me is like they all want home but like home is this weird concept to begin with well those are like the two sort of biggest themes i feel like he keeps on hitting on in like a traditional spielberg way you know as like okay here's a clear thesis that's running through the movie this concept of what home is that what drives everyone is just being able to have a home and

be safe in your home which is like one of the three most primal human instincts that we cannot kick out of our system no matter how much we develop as a society everyone just wants to have a home feel like they own it feel like they're protected there um and that's you know like maybe the most spielberg moment in the movie is when you have eric vanna looking at the model kitchen in the window yeah and seeing the reflections of cassavetes there which then turns into matthew almaric and it's like this whole thing of like okay well what is he actually fighting for like what is a home actually you know this feels like what is a home actually you know this feels like it's a representation of the kind of kitchen i'd want to live in but what price

does that come at literally i mean this is the one scene where i think he lays it on a little thick right i like it when stevie lays it on thick i'm not complaining but it but it is he goes blunt here because almeric goes like it's a nice kitchen but it will cost you you know like that kind of thing that's true yeah they literally they all the subtext becomes text but home is the main thing driving all these people which is very relatable right and we should say in the safe house scene they're all pretending to be like he's like I'm Etta like he's pretending to be part of the

Basque liberation movement or maybe the like the Bader Madoff like all of these sort of liberation movements of the era that we're about like finding a home for X people right and then I think that's the second big theme of the movie is identity and allegiance. Who are you part of?

Not who are you as a person, but who are you in relation to what you are united with? Because you have people hiding behind layers and layers and layers of deception, but it's constantly coming under question, like, who are you working for? I told you I'm working for that. No, I know you're working for this, but you think you're working for that.

You're actually working for this. You know, everyone has like bought into to some degree or another, some kind of community or some kind of, you know, legacy or some nationalism, some pride, whatever it is that they feel like they need to represent that or defend that or attack the other. But no one really knows where they stand. Omar Metwali. In that sense, it's really good. In that sense, it's interesting that the movie ends in Brooklyn. Right.

So, yeah, he's robbed of his quote-unquote home. Yeah, home of the movie Brooklyn. Oh, that's where I recognize it. The whole time I was like, I know I've seen this movie before. I mean, this was the first and Brooklyn was the second. But it's not only that he is an immigrant now to another country. And it's not only that the United States has always sort of self conceptualized it as self as a home for people from everywhere. And New York, especially.

And but it's also like the United States is a country where often your identity as an American is secondary to your identity as something else. Like you are an American, but you're all you're a Jewish American. You carry your baggage as an American. And that comes first before American. That's the first word in the hyphen. Yeah, that is really interesting. I just think Manola had a line

I want to find. But we can get back to it. Keep talking. Safe house scenes go back. I love that Papa scene. Michael Lonsdale. That. Michael Lonsdale. Yeah. That's Michael Lonsdale. Is he the father of Almaric, or is he just?

Yeah, he's, I mean, it's entirely possible they're making it up, but yeah, he claims to be. They're at least involved together in this. Yeah, they're involved, yeah. You know, and these are people, and this is another fascinating sort of shade of gray, right, is like they sell secrets from everyone to everyone. Like there's no partisan thinking. There's no like allegiance or patriotism at work. Like they're simply like traffickers of information. Well, much like Dominic Toretto, his priority is protecting his family.

Right. And you're saying Papa's priority. Papa's priority is. If they added Papa to the Fast and the Furious series. They could tomorrow. Lonsdale. Yeah. He's still alive.

He's 85. Oh, he'd be perfect. He'd be perfect. He'd be great. What if literally he plays Papa and Dom needs some info and he goes to Papa. Hands him a Corona. Yeah, Papa's carving the fat off of a rabbit or whatever. He's making some unpasteurized cheese.

And he's like, no, Dom, that'd be great. And we realize that these are in a shared universe. Papa doesn't feel an allegiance to country, to religion, to race. Papa's allegiance is to family. And every time we see him, he's

at this massive estate. They keep on talking about how much money he's made. And the point of that money was to be able to support all of these people to create this sort of commune almost, you know, it feels like he lives in this bubble where it's just great food and all of his family. at all if anything they're saying is true. The family's so big, we don't know how much of it is blood and how much of it's chosen. Yeah. You know, but it is the sense of, like, he chose his people, this is who he's protecting, this is what he stands for, and everyone else in the movie is kind of constantly questioning,

you know, where they fit into it. And he's the one guy who's got his feet totally planted. He's also the most even-keeled, calm person in a very jittery movie. Yeah. In a movie where... In a Michael On jittery movie. In a movie where everyone's always on edge. He's the one guy who is just like, I know what I've done. I've made my deal. I've made my bet. And make sure to get this fat off of that rabbit.

You gotta get the fat off the rabbit. He comes back in toward the end and is vaguely threatening. And like throws the movie completely off the rails. I took that scene as him giving him kind of a friendly warning, like, look, Matthew Almarica's sort of sold you guys out,

so watch your back. Also, I'm sending you some unpasteurized cheese, which I would love it if that guy called me right now and was just like, I'm sending you some cheese. He does make cheese sound great. He makes it sound great.

Hugo Drax. He's Hugo Drax in Moonraker. Oh, right. He's the villain of Moonraker. Michael Lansdale. Just wanted to say. I want that on the record. Thank you, dude. Wait, where's Ben? Producer Ben? We haven't even introduced Ben this whole episode. We've been so

having so much fun talking Munich. The Ben Ducer? Ben, are you here? Yeah, I'm here. The Poet Laureate? Our finest film critic? The Peucer? Ben, are you here? Yeah, I'm here. The Doerbeck? The Poet Laureate? Our finest film critic? Yeah. The Peeper? I've been known to look.

Just do the names. The Fuckmaster? Yeah. Part detective? Don't make them all questions. Part detective. Dirtbag Benny? Mm-hmm.

You're not Professor Crispy, right? No. Okay. But you have graduated certain tells over the course of different miniseries? Yeah. Okay, can I just run a couple by you and you tell me if they're correct or not? I will confirm if they are correct, yes. Producer Ben Kenobi.

True. Kylo Ben. True. Ben Nye Chonwan. True. Ben Sey. Oh, yeah, true. Say Ben-y-thing.

Dot, dot, dot. Ailey Benz with a dollar sign at the end? Just call him Ailey Benz. Yeah. Yeah, those are his names. Okay. Great. Also, also, the goiest goy of all goys.

How did you feel about this big old Jew fest? It's great. I really can't add very much. Cool action movie. The context with the whole Palestine-Israel thing makes me uncomfortable being on the record talking about it, so I'm not going to say much. You want to take yourself off the record. I'll throw this out. In espionage movies, it seems like it's a trope to have a kid almost get killed.

Sure. That's true. It's a good scene, though. I don't like it. Love watching Kieran Hines book it. He has to run around that corner. He's got to put a hand on top of that fedora so it doesn't fly away. I'd prefer next time a cat or a dog.

Oh, like a cat's under threat? You want them to save the cat. So the cat answers the phone. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Then I would really be upset. Great, great work there, Griffin. Do you want me to get the cat out of the room?

Yeah, please do. All right, hold on. Yeah, it's what we needed in the middle of this Munich episode was a good old-fashioned bit. Foley bit? Ben, you know, immediately jumping to cool action movie. I think we should acknowledge this. This movie's lasting legacy is kind of the scene in Knocked Up. Yeah, I was about to mention the scene in Knocked Up. I feel like that acknowledge this, this movie's lasting legacy is kind of the scene in Knocked Up. I feel like that's

most of this movie's cultural legacy now. Okay, Ben, just grab by the scruff. He's really committed. Yeah, the scene in Knocked Up, which comes out two years later, in which they are at the club and I guess they've all just watched

Munich. Or no, maybe they just want to talk about Munich. He says, you know what I saw the other day and it was a fucking cool movie? Munich. And all of them go like, oh yeah, Munich! It's like Jay Baruchel and Jason Segel and whoever else. And they're like, that movie flips the script. The Jews are the one. And then he has the line like,

if any of us get laid tonight, it's because of Eric Bana and Munich. Which is a great line. What do you think of this line? It's a good line. It's a good line. It's a good line. I am a little dismayed that, I love this movie. That that's overshadowed. A little dismayed

that this is now, that this is its legacy and the weird sex scene and occasionally somebody who remembers that it's somehow anti-Israel. Right. And,

you should know that Steven Spielberg sent Judd Apatow a framed still from the film Munich, signed when he saw Knucklehead. Well, it does feel like the joke of that sequence, and I think why it hit so well, is that the idea of anyone watching Munich and being like, oh, fuck yeah.

Hardcore Jews. Right, is really funny, because that's not what that movie is. It's not a Jewish revenge fantasy. Well, no, exactly. I mean, it's sort of a, yeah, it's a complete undermining of a Jewish revenge fantasy. Well, no, exactly. I mean, it's sort of a, yeah, it's a complete undermining of a Jewish revenge fantasy. It's to underline their man-child status, etc. But so few people had

seen Munich. No, no, it's funny. Now it's been cemented. I think people think it is what they think it is in that movie. The joke at the time was like, Munich's very austere. If they think this movie is badass, and that's leading to them getting laid, then they've misread Munich. Because I would say the most quote-unquote

badass scene is when they, so Kieran Hines, I don't know how to say it. I say Hines. We've mentioned him so many times on this podcast. I know. Mance Rayder. Mance Rayder himself. There we go. He gets caught and assassinated by this one-shot character

Marie-José Croze. Who is she? She's in The Dimebell and the Butterfly. She's like the main nerf. She's a very, very fine French actress. Oh, right. She was in the Barbarian Invasion. She's Canadian.

I'm a huge fan of hers. Really? Oh, she's French-Canadian? Yeah. I'm a huge fan of hers. I think she's really good. So she kills poor Kieran. He gets a nice little goodbye scene, actually,

at the bar with Eric. And so then they exact their revenge with those weird little flashlight guns. So interesting. The little... And it's a creepy scene. But that's the most badass scene, right? Like, that's... In another movie,

that's when they're taking their, like, their brutal revenge. But think about how upsetting that scene is because they walk in, she's there, who are you, what are you what's going on she sees bana she puts it together right they take out the things they start assembling them she goes well at least let me get dressed you know reaches is reaching for the gun you go okay i know where this is going it's gonna be a shootout thing then she doesn't get the gun right yeah she does her last ditch attempt that's like well uh you know tries to seduce them to see if she can throw them off.

It'd be a waste to let these talents, you know. And then they shoot the thing, and it's like some weird, it's almost like the cattle stun gun from No Country for Old Men. Like, it immediately leaves this mark, but it doesn't really start bleeding and letting out for a little while. She starts breathing. And he starts holding, you know. Like, you see her with these two large red dots. She's stumbling around and they're trying to kind of like just get her to sit back down she goes to her cat she hugs her cat and they're just like sit down sit down and you just have to sit with her you know watching her stumble around really uncomfortably knowing

that she's about to die before it starts getting gruesome and it's like this isn't a movie that gets any satisfaction of like you know it'd be so easy to especially And it's like, this isn't a movie that gets any satisfaction of, like, you know, it'd be so easy to, especially when it's like, you know, a honeypot character like that, you know? Sure. Where it's like, oh, her job is to seduce and kill. It'd be so easy to just be like, yeah, you fucking get what you deserve. And I feel like the shittier version of Munich that the knocked up guys think they're watching,

that's the kind of scene it would do. Right, because, I mean, she's not a character with any dimensionality or like, I mean, she's just in a set. We only know her as someone who kills one of the like it's not like it's not like there should be sympathy for her. And yet. Right. To hold on her death that much is just like death is never cool.

Yeah. You know, it doesn't matter if someone's done something wrong, if they're on the opposite side. Yeah. It's never a pleasant thing to watch. Even, you know, regardless of the viscerality of blood and gore and whatever. It's just like to watch someone in their final moments accept death. And she's like puttering around like a baby.

I mean, she's like losing her facilities. And it's just like grabbing a cat. Let me sit in the chair. I like, you know. Yeah. It sucks. Death blows. I want to go on the record and say that. I think death is fucking lame.

Todd? I think if Eric Bana comes and shoots me, I'm going to hug my cat. I think that's a good way to go. When Eric Bana comes for us, and he comes for us all, sooner or later, he comes for us all. He does. You got to grab your cat and give it a nice little hug.

My cat's name is Pig. Is that true? Yeah, and we'll be selling Pig Plush in the Blank Check online store. Oh, I have actually a pitch for you guys. Oh, sure. Why don't we just make customized blankets? Yeah, that's what we should do. We should make

stadium blankets with our faces on them. For the blankies. Yeah, that's what we should do. This store is going to be open any day now. Blankie blankies. We're working on it. Other thoughts about this movie? I mean, should we talk about the sex scene more? We should.

I don't know. Yeah, well, that's the thing. So they do all this stuff. They kill lots of people. Eventually, Bona, does he retire or do they retire him? He's out. They can't pull him back in. They have one mission that goes kind of wrong where they're trying to kill this big shot,

and instead they kill this teenager, and it's sort of a disaster. So then he's out. He's in Brooklyn, and what is it about? Griffin, you were on a show where you had to be set in the 70s. A vinyl, yeah. And this is also mostly set in the 70s.

What did you think of the fashion in those days? I dig it. I do too. And I actually, I thought that during the movie, but I thought it wouldn't be cool to bring up on this podcast. Well, I brought it up for you. Everyone looks really cool in this movie. Hell yeah.

It's a really well executed 70s costume world because they don't feel costuming. Everyone feels like it's like real outfits and they do the thing that the best period films do which is like the clothes are mostly from like six years earlier than the movie was set because fashion like lasts. You know? People are wearing older clothes. I think everyone looks cool in this movie.

I think 70s stuff is cool. I think it's a good fucking zone to set stories in. I like all the facial hair. I love chops. Yeah. Stashes.. I like all the facial hair. I love chops. Yeah. Stashes. But I like Kieran Hines is sort of still like in a 60s mode. You know, he looks like he's like from the Anderson tapes or something.

It's like this is an older guy and he's holding on to his prime. James Bond's haircut is pretty rough. What the hell is he talking about? Oh, you mean Craig. You mean Daniel Craig. Yeah, you know. This is the year before Casino Royale? Yes.

Oh, yeah, no. Casino Royale is 06, yeah. Right, so he's just about to pop, Daniel Craig. Yeah, he's just about to become a huge star. But right now he's still like steely British theater actor, Daniel Craig. And very much like a supporting player. Right, like eighth lead in Road to Perdition, Daniel Craig. That's really good in that. It's terrific. Yeah a mushroom cut though all right that's enough there's a

moment in this film when he when he gets back and he meets the israeli soldiers who are like escorting him yeah and they're like in awe of him they're talking to him as if they're the knocked up guys yeah they're like we know who you are you're not allowed to say it but you're fucking cool right and they put out their hand to shake his hand and he like really hesitantly does it slowly and it's so clear this movie's framing it as like this guy isn't some oorah hero

you know he's not like the underdog defender this is a guy who's gotta live with this for the rest of his life I just wanna I just remembered that Kieran Hintz is who Daniel Craig shoots in Road to Perdition that's like sets everything off in the movie. Oh, that's crazy. Remember that? And then Superman sees it.

Yeah. Little Superman. Tyler Hocklin? Yeah. He's a little Superman. Oh, okay. Yeah. And also Mathieu Marique is the guy who James Bond punches in Quantum of Solace. True. That is true. And Michael Lonsdale played the city of Chicago

in Road to Perdition. Right, yes, yes. He played the entire city. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And Matthew Kasabitz was the rain. Yeah. What a great movie. Road to Perdition.

Yes. Todd, weigh in. I like Road to Perdition. I would not say great, but I like it. I like it a lot. My favorite, Mendes. Probably mine, too. What's it? I like Skyfall lot. My favorite, Mendes. Probably mine, too. What's it?

I like Skyfall, actually. Skyfall, yeah. I like Skyfall, say, for that one scene. Which one scene? When he just goes into a sexual abuse survivor shower. Let me get in the shower with you. Yeah. We just talked about how you were like a sex slave.

It's a weird scene. That is a, yeah. A jump in your shower. It's an objectively odd scene. That scene sucks. I feel like Daniel Craig has talked about that scene, like, ever since he made it. Yeah. As, like, an example of, like, why do I play this guy?

Yeah, this guy's... This guy is bizarre. This guy's gross. Yeah. But, I mean, the sex scene in this movie is interesting not just because it's so over the top because he's done so few sex scenes in his career, but it's also like the denouement of the film. Yeah, so yeah, right, we're on the sex scene. And also because it's cross-cutting

with the massacre of these poor Israeli athletes. It's an odd choice. It's almost a bold choice, I would say, right? Rather than a misfire. It's intentional. There were many defenses of this movie at the time. But, of course, you know, when there's an obviously weird scene in a movie, like you think about Spider-Man 3, which has a lot of problems,

but all anybody remembers is the scene where he dances. Right. And, like, all anybody remembers about this movie is this one, like, really tonally strange kind of off-the-wall choice, which I actually really liked this time around. I remember the first time I saw it I was like I don't know. I liked it more than I thought. In my head I feel like you could cut one shot out and then you'd be

fine and the shot is him orgasming and like just like beads of sweat flying into the air. Now in my head that was like literally like so much water suddenly and it's not. It gets into flash dance territory. not that bad but still I do feel like

maybe I don't know just do some pickups right in my head it was five minutes long I think back on it all the time

it's not that bad but you know I'll admit that I get that it was jarring for people and I do think the idea of course is that he's

100% traumatized by the violence and like the violence is all sort of becoming, it's all blended together for him as well. And the fact that the movie is kind of bookended by these sex sequences, the one in the beginning of the film is not very erotic,

is very just kind of like, this is just a married couple having sex. It's romantic. You know, she's pantsless, he's nothing clothed. Right, and there's like half a blanket over them. Yeah, nothing clothed. But it's very just like, you know, he doesn't do any flashy camera work or anything. It's just watching two people make love

who are in love with each other, right? This is moving. And then the end of the movie, it's like he's having this very visceral, like, torrid sex, you know, shot in this very, very cinematic way, cross-cut with, like, the horrors that he's never going to be able to live down. Like, this is defining him for the rest of his life now.

It's because, you know, at the start he thinks you can be safe and you can have a home. At the end he knows you can never be safe. You can never have a home. Right. He's sort of in that, yeah, he'll always be looking over his shoulder. And also I think— He's got this extra charge now that's not going away. But I also think there's an intention in Spielberg showing the murder of the Israeli hostages

which was so random like you just see. It's like when Black September terrorists realize that it's all going down they just sort of fire wildly at the guys and it's not that different from what you've seen Fana and his crew do. No. Which is kind of just fire wildly at people when they think they got you know like

and then there's the actual final scene is his conversation with Jeffrey, with Ephraim. Yeah. On the docks of Brooklyn. He's really good in this. Which has that very intentional shot of the World Trade Center. Yeah.

Final shot has the World Trade Center. In the skyline, yeah. I do love, that's the thing I love about this movie. Where Ephraim is like, come back to Israel. We'll kill more people. What are you talking about? I hated that stuff. And Irfan is like, why did we do this? Did kill more people. What are you talking about? I hated that stuff. And Erich Bonn is like, why did

we do this? Did it work? And he's like, yeah! I think so! Always more people to kill, though. Flip a coin. But I mean, I'm making it sound silly. It's a scene where both characters have staked out their sort of philosophical territory. And the movie

ends in a note where it's like, these two guys are going to walk in two different directions and shit's going to keep happening. Like, there's no, you know, was it a success? Like, in the immediate, they accomplished the thing they were trying to do. But, like, you know, nothing's resolved, really, in the grand scheme of things. I do, I love how, and this is, like,

because it's, like, a $60 million Spielberg movie and he can do whatever he wants. In terms of like the period setting. 70 was the budget. 70, wow. In terms of the period setting and how many different locations this film has, the world of this movie is so huge. Because he does a lot of wide shots. He does a lot of long tracking shots where you're going across city blocks. And the degree to which they had to set dress.

Like every car, every outfit, all the signage and everything. He makes the world feel very just sort of lived in and offhand. That's the thing in this movie that kind of reminds me of the conversation is a lot of times he uses more sort of like documentary film techniques.

He does a lot of zooms in this, which Spielberg doesn't usually do. He usually moves the camera, not shifts the lens, you know? And he does a lot of like quick zooms in this, which Spielberg doesn't usually do. He usually moves the camera, not shifts the lens. And he does a lot of quick zooms into people from a distance, this sort of paranoid kind of bird's eye view,

or like a bird's nest view of characters talking. It's like an uneasy movie. I think it's great. I think it's really good. I don't think it's great, but I really, really like it. Oh, you don't think it's great? I think it's great. This would be my top ten of't think it's great but I really really like it oh you don't think it's great I think it's great this would be my top 10

of the year for sure it's top 5 Spielberg for me I do think there's something though to what you were saying about like the Spider-Man 3 comparison where when audiences have

a very specific idea of what they want out of a movie yeah and it doesn't work for them they always latch on to like the thumb

sticking out the furthest you know sure where it's like, I think the weird scene in Spider-Man 3, the dance shit, all those weird scenes aren't the problem with Spider-Man 3. It's the rest of it. That stuff's kind of interesting. He's taking bold swings there.

Interesting is too strong. You guys like that movie more than I do. I think the basic functional Spider-Man stuff in Spider-Man 3 is totally dysfunctional, is where that movie falls apart. It's kind of all over the place. And I think similarly, like most of Munich is so kind of locked down and focused that people who I think were looking for the film

to give them any sort of emotional catharsis or the sort of rush of an action thriller or the kind of neat answers that they wanted out of like a movie on a hot button issue were able to, especially because it's the end, go, well, that scene was weird. That's the fucking problem. And pin way too much on the sex scene

because it's the loudest thing in the movie. I think of his 2000s work, though, this and AI have sort of grown the most in reputation over time. I think that a big part of why this movie kind of rubbed people the wrong way was when it came out. Like, 2005 2005 certainly we were starting to explore the moral questions of what the united states did after september 11th but we weren't like all the way there yet right and a lot of the reviews i went back and looked

at them a lot of the commentary was saying is this movie saying taking action against terrorists makes you a terrorist because that's wrong yeah they're yeah yeah right that's not what this movie is saying at all but like that's an easy superficial reading. It's kind of similar to what happened to Zero Dark Thirty in a lot of ways. Yes. Very, very similar. Another good movie. It's also very long.

Yes. Some of the same sort of themes that come up in Minority Report, where it's like, look, it's like two wrong answers, really. You have to choose which wrong you want to go with. Right. You know, either you invade people's privacies in order to stop crime, or you give people freedom and you let more crime happen. This movie is ranked 29th

in the box office mojo category of travelogue Middle East. You know what number one is? Transformers Revenge of the Fallen. Yeah. A great Middle Eastern travelogue. Let's take another sweep of that category. You know what number two is? The Passion of the Christ. Jesus, what the fuck?

Oh, I knocked over a little bit of tea. Thank you. Great job. I love obscure box office mojo. Every movie is American Sniper, Aladdin. Jeez. Why would you call this travelogue?

Anyway, that is my way of setting up the box office. Yes, okay, great. Yay. So this opened in like- Christmas. It opened Christmas. Was it Christmas weekend? It was the 23rd of December, 2005.

It opened at number 10 at the box office with $6 million, so it's not in our top five. It opened 530 screens. So like sort of semi-limited. Right. It expanded out, but, you know, it ended with 47 domestic. It didn't really top anymore. I feel like its first wide weekend it did the same amount, right?

Let's see. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, I never. Its biggest weekend is $7 million. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So this is Christmas 2005.

Christmas 2005. Number one, it's in its second week of release. Okay. Todd loved this movie at the time, I remember. I re-watched it last year. He knows.

And it's still really, still really like it. I wouldn't say I love it anymore. I think I might side with you on this. I haven't re-watched it in a while, but I certainly... So everyone knows what the movie is. Bang the Drum Highly for... King Kong, right?

It's King Kong, a film I don't like. Okay, I was fully in the Masterpiece boat at the time of its release. It's overstuffed, but the stuff that works is so good. I think it's incredible. I also would have given Naomi Watts best actress right here. I think she's terrific in the film. I think that's an incredible point. One day we'll do our Peter Jackson miniseries.

Yeah, we'll do it. And then I'll rewatch King Kong. I can't wait. But that holiday season was an arms race. King Kong was expected to be the movie of the year, not just of the fall. It made plenty of money. It made $2.18.

But another film sort of lapped it. I mean, came on strong. And I think the weekend after this weekend returned to number one after seeding to King Kong for a couple weeks. And that is. You are correct. The Chronicles of Narnia, the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. That's right.

Which ended up being the bigger sort of fantasy family event film. Remember when the director of Shrek made a Narnia movie with Tilda Swinton that was a huge hit? Do you remember when the director of Shrek had the most consistent box office track record of anyone in history? Yeah, because Shrek, Shrek 2, Narnia is one and two. Right.

And then Mr. Pip. Yep. Okay. Never heard of this movie. So that's one and two. And he also did a- Mr. Pip made $1,700 at the box office.

He also did a Cirque du Soleil documentary. He did, he did. Okay, so that's King Kong and Chronicles of Narnia 1 and 2, right? That's 1 and 2, correct. Okay. Number 3. Number 3 is a comedy that actually opened pretty good.

It opened $29 million. This is its first weekend, considering that no one has ever seen it. I know what this is. And it doesn't exist. Fun with Dick and Jane? That's correct. You guys both are... My wife worked in a movie theater at this time,

so I remember every... Because I was there visiting her all the time and seeing free movies, so I remember, like, everything. Yeah, that's one of the quietest 100 million grocers ever. Yeah, the movie made $110 million, 202 worldwide.

It was co-written by Judd Apatow and Nick Stahler. Yeah, and Dean Persaud directed it. Yeah, starred Jim Carrey. It was ostensibly, also it was 2005, and it's kind of a movie about white collar crime. It was weirdly prescient. Too bad no one's ever seen it. I haven't seen it, and it doesn't exist.

I saw it. I saw it in theaters. It doesn't really exist. Yeah. Because isn't really exist. Yeah. Because isn't the button joke on that one, the final joke, is that he got a new job and he'll be fine and the job's at Enron? Yes. It turns out to be a period piece.

That's the big twist. Okay. Fuck. Congratulations. It's just like Remember Me. Yeah. It's just like Remember Me. It's very similar to Remember Me.

It turns out that an early aughts crisis is the twist ending of the movie. Now, number four is a sequel. Much like Ghost of the Abyss. Much like Ghost of the Abyss. I had to make that joke. I'm sorry. Yeah, of course. Number four is a sequel

to a family film. Cheaper by the Dozen 2. There you go. Open to $20 million. For Cheaper by the Dozen 2. Yeah. Is Tom Welling in that one as well? Yeah.

Hilary Duff? I believe so, yeah. Piper Paraba? Piper? They're all back? They're all back. The whole family's back. Plus a new family, Eugene Levy and Carmen Electra.

That couple. That couple. There's some episode back in the archives where we rant on a 20-minute Eugene Levy rant. I can't remember which one. But Jim's dad. We talked about Jim's dad specifically. We talked about Eugene Levy's mid-2000s dominance of the sex comedy genre. Cheaper by 2002 features Taylor Lautner

playing the child of Carmen Electra and Eugene Levy. The biological child of Carmen Electra and Eugene Levy. Oh, God. So live with that, America. Yeah. And then number five is a film that just added. It was limited last week. It just added 1,500 screens and it made $10 million.

Was it an Oscar player? It's an Oscar player that won some Oscars. Brokeback? Nope, but was not good and did not get good reviews. Siriana? No. Right? That fits the discussion pretty siriana was that your people were like oh no this'll this'll be a player siriana watch out for siriana also an ebert favorite siriana that is a movie that i saw i don't remember it at all

but i saw that thanksgiving night 2005 with my wife we drove to la to see siriana ate at a kfc and you lived in nevada at the time you drove through the night to see siriana and what did you think of siriana i don't remember a goddamn thing about it the only thing i remember is the gif of of george clooney walking away from the car that blows up right you sometimes see you sometimes see. Right. He dies, right? There's this scene where he's like in a Humvee and he's like, no, no, no, don't do it. Then they all blow up. And I don't remember why. They won an Oscar for it.

It's so weird that he won for that. He won an Academy Award. It's his only Oscar. It was his year because that was like Good Night and Good Luck. And then he got like nominated in like five different categories. But I mean, before the movie came out, it was like, oh, he grew a beard and he gained weight. That's a triptych with him, Matt Damon, and Jeffrey Wright. I could point a gun at Stephen Gagin,

who I believe wrote and directed that film. He couldn't tell me what the Jeffrey Wright arc was about. I mean, it's so weird. I have a theory that 75% of the people who voted for George Clooney didn't see Sirius. They were just like, yeah, sure. It was bad or something? Great.

It's Clooney's year. Anyway, no, it's like, yeah, sure. It's Clooney's year. It was bad or something? Great. It's Clooney's year. Anyway, no, it's not Siriana. Okay. It's not Brokeback. It won a couple Oscars. I think it won three. Last King of Scotland? No, that was the year later.

Okay. That year, Walk the Line. Give me another hint. No, it's bad. It's a bad movie. It's a bad movie and it won a couple Oscars? Maybe it won three. Do you know the movie, Tom?

I'm not placing it. Look, it's crazy that this movie exists. It was criticized at the time for racist casting. Oh, I know what you're talking about now. I know what you're talking about now. Nemours of a Geisha? Yeah. Correct.

Nemours of a Geisha. A Rob Marshall joint. This was thought to be an Oscar frontrunner. And I think it was, Hollywood was like, what should we give to Rob Marshall? He made Chicago. We should give him something kind of musically, right? I don't know, you know, like

really complex period drama set in, is it that it's set in China and featured Japanese actors or the other way around? It had this problem where it cast like... It was set in Japan and featured Chinese actors. It cast like, quote, Asian actors. It was a catch-all Asian actor

pool for a very Japanese movie. Yeah, because they were like, let's just... Watanabe, get him on the phone. Zhang Ji, get him in, right? Right, Gong Li's in it. I think Michelle Yeoh's in it. Am I wrong about that? I feel like she has a supporting part. I haven't seen it since it came out. Yes, you're correct.

But I believe it won three Oscars. Cinematography, art direction, and costumes. Well, my girl Colleen Atwood won for costumes. That also is a movie that Spielberg was going to make for years. He bought the rights. He had it set up at DreamWorks. He was always going to make it. That was a hot book club.

And that was another thing. When people were doing the Oscar prognosticating months out, I remember people being like, oh, it's going to be memoirs versus Munich. It's going to be, oh, the irony. If Steve got beaten by the movie that he almost directed and finally handed off to Rob Marshall, our next great American director, our newly anointed.

So some other movies. Good job, guys. Family Stone is in there, which is a film that people now claim is good, which I hate, because it's bad. It's got some moments. No.

Moments, though. Todd. I like Family Stone. Hey, Todd. Terrible movie. It definitely has some moments. Remember that scene where, I don't even want to talk about it.

The Ringer? Rachel McAdams, though. The Ringer. Imagine that movie coming out today. Yeah, people would to talk about it. The Ringer. Rachel McAdams. The Ringer. Imagine that movie coming out today. Yeah, people would. Not like it. People didn't like it then, but imagine that now. Yeah.

I've never seen it, but I think it sort of criticizes Johnny Knoxville for pretending to be mentally disabled or whatever the hell it is. So he can compete in the Special Olympics. But rumor has it everybody fucked Costner. Yeah. That was the working title for that movie. I think that's a Nathan Rabin joke that I dug up from the recesses of my brain. Goblet of Fire is in there. The worst Harry Potter movie.

I would agree. At least, I mean, if you're giving Chris Columbus's movie kind of like, you're just sort of ignoring them, I guess. Keeping them in mind, still think that's the worst one. Then Munich. Wolf Creek. Remember Wolf Creek? Oh, je guess. Oh, I, keeping them in mind, still think that's the worst one. Then Munich, Wolf Creek. Remember Wolf Creek? Oh, jeez. Siriana, The Producers.

Lots and lots of movies in 05 that were going to be Oscar players didn't. That's the thing. Movies like The Producer. That's fascinating. Because you could have gone, like, if you asked, I'm sure if you trekked through those boards, right, and found, like, the August predictions,

they would have been, like, best picture. Producers, Memoirs of a Geisha, Siriana, Munich's gonna win in a sweep. Right, yeah. Mrs. Henderson Presents. Oh, there you go. Remember when she presented a nude review? Trans-America's probably in there somewhere.

Trans-America. Oh, jeez, Trans-America. Another movie, release that today. Oh, sure, let's see how that goes. Whew. The IMAX reissue of the Polar Express. Yeah, that was that period of time where Polar Express would make another $10 to $15 million every year. They'd just bring it back.

Dock into the station. But that's it. That's it. Well, much like the film Munich, we're left with a lot of questions and in general unease. Thank you so much for being here, Todd. I was glad to be here. People can follow you on Twitter. Yeah, Twitter.

Twitter is TVOTI. You can find my work at Vox.com or, you know, just follow me on Twitter. I link to it. Do it. Tovoti. Tovoti. Tovoti. Do you ever regret it being Tovoti?

Because I feel like Tovoti now. You've just made that your brand. I don't because Todd Vanderwerf is such a long, stupid name. People wouldn't know how to spell it. TVOTI. That's easy to remember. There's a guy who's TVOT who gets a lot of tweets from me and he just tirelessly is like, I think you mean TVOTI.

He's from like England or something. Why do they, why not just do something else? God. There's this, I'm David L. Sims on Twitter. Plug for me. There's a David my, you know, I'm David L. Sims on Twitter. Plug for me. You know, there's a David Sims

and like in his, he tweets never and in his profile it says, I'm not the TV reviewer or the fashion photographer because there's also a fashion photographer

by my name. This poor guy's probably just getting tagged like once every few hours like with some, you know, great job shooting Miley Cyrus

in this week's interview magazine. There's a dude who's also named Griffin Newman who lives in New York and works for Swiss Banking. He works for Credit Suisse. And they loved him in the tick? Every once in a while he'll send me something. He'll be like, hey, I think this offered a star in a web videos for you.

All right. Anyway, good times. Thank you, Todd. You're welcome. How long have we known each other, Todd? 15 years? Yeah, probably. It's times. Thank you, Todd. You're welcome. God, how long have we known each other, Todd? 15 years? Yeah, probably. About that?

It's been since like 2002, 2003. Since that Chicago Oscar race. Yeah, I think so. I think so. And you were like a tiny baby. I was. I was a tiny upstart baby who just got a computer in his room. I was still married.

Well, congratulations. Well, thank you. To you and Libby. You're still married today. Yeah. Congratulations to all of us. And I've grown into a big baby. Yeah, a little too big.

Yeah, pretty big. A very tall man. That's a throwback. Very tall man. Anyway, thank you for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Spielberg does another one of his classics, you know, three and two,

and then takes a couple years off and next week we'll be discussing his right it is his immediate follow up to this is a film called Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull which I think is the first film in an aborted Indiana Jones franchise

we're not doing that I love that movie you love that movie? I mean I like parts of it I think there's some good parts I think that's you love that movie I mean I like parts of it I think there's some good parts I think that's a movie that also falls prey to the Spider-Man 3 problem people focus on the wrong things they do but we'll talk about that

next week that's right but in the meantime thank you and as always a big congratulations to Steven Spiel students for losing this one. This has been a UCB Comedy Production. Check out our other shows on the UCB Comedy Podcast Network.