Blank Check with Griffin & David - Munich with Todd VanDerWerff

Episode Date: April 10, 2017

Todd VanDerWerff (Vox) joins Griffin and David this week to discuss 2005’s Israeli espionage thriller, Munich. But is this movie’s lasting legacy being a reference in Knocked Up? What does it mean when Jeffrey Wells leaves behind his hat? What was with those sex scenes? Together, they go on the record with Oscar picks, examine Eric Bana’s career trajectory, ponder when Spielberg lost his virginity and go off on a tangent about the film Crash.

The world was watching in 1972 as 11 Israeli athletes were murdered at the Munich Olympics. This is the story of what podcasted next. Wait, what is that? Is that the tagline? That's the tagline for the movie. Great tagline. What a somber beginning. Yeah, I mean, this, I'm waiting. Hey, everybody, I'm David Sim. I'm mine's Griffin, you man.

All right, all right. We got a podcast. A podcast called Blankcheck with Griffin and David. Uh, yeah. This is a show where we're, how's check the two friends? That's very important. I almost forgot that. We're two friends.

We host a podcast together. That's our competitive advantage. It's unique. Uh, yeah, that's what, that's the, that's the secret we crack. Yes. I'm looking at quotes from Munich. That's proprietary. But we talk about movies on the show.

We like directors and film agrfys. And looking at the context of what happens when someone has a massive success early on, they become a brand and they get a series of blank checks. See, it's funny that you're doing this for Spielberg because it's not really the premise of the Spielberg podcast. No. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby, and sometimes you save up on a studio.

You get to have a studio. You buy a studio, you found a studio with two other really rich guys, and then you just make whatever the fuck you want. Yeah. This is, this is a me, here's my Stevie Spielberg. Yeah.

It's called Pob me if you cast. Right. And it's about Spielberg in the Dreamworks years. And this is kind of, this is kind of a midpoint. This is kind of a fulcrum film. I guess so. It's a fulcrum film. I'd say maybe this is like the halfway point of our mini series. It probably is.

Yeah, it's about there. I think it's about there. And this is an interesting one because the phone we're talking about today is Munich. Yeah. And two hour or 45 minute laugh, right? It's long. Yeah. It's it's it's serious political Spielberg. One of the modes he goes into. It's sure. Spielberg, which is it's the beginning of right of that new genre. Right. But the other thing with this film was this was part of this phenomenon that we keep on talking about when Spielberg tried to do a two for a year. Yeah, we're three and two.

I call it a three and two. Three and two. Why do you call it three? Because it's, you know, a lost world, I'm a stud, saving Prevary. Three movies and two years. Oh, interesting. AI Minority Report, Catch Reef, if you can't. And then this time it's Terminal War of the World's Munich.

Three in two. Interesting. Three in two. Yeah. I just think he keeps on going for this one specific thing which is with him one year. So serious, right? So serious, right?

Can I make a huge blockbuster and a huge Oscar film? And this film is paired up with War of the World's in its year. And they're interesting because both films are closer to the middle. Yeah, they're both very, very grim. Right, they're both very, very grim. Right, they're both very, very grim. Yeah.

And Munich is pretty violent in action. Not in like a cathartic popcorn in a way, but for an Oscar movie. And where the world was pretty grim and bleak for a popcorn movie. Yeah, not much action. Mostly just people turning into clouds of dust. And where the world's made a lot of money, but mixed response and wasn't the number one movie the year. And this movie got a bunch of money, but mixed response and wasn't the number one movie the year. And this movie got a bunch of Oscar nominations, but didn't win any.

And was one of his least seen film. Yeah. But it's interesting film. We have a very exciting guest on the show. You're supposed to talk before we introduce here interrupt us or make some annoying comment on the last. I thought you'd yell at me. Exactly.

I'm too. I'm a very good boy. This is the most polite guest we've ever had on the show. Usually people are jumping in, their hot takes, their cold taste. The redditors are going to make a politeness ranking. Yeah. And he'll be number one. Yeah. Uh, you know from the A.V. Club back in the day. Back in the day when the two of you were bosom buddies. Yeah. We still are. Yeah, we are. Yeah. still, we're still really not as tight as YouTube. Really good friends. I would say that we are.

Hey, hashtag really good friends. Let's make it clear. I'm not trying to argue that David and I are best friends and if there isn't room for other friends, it's just an empirical fact that we are the two friends. Right. Not saying we're better friends than anyone else. I'm not saying our friendship is better than any other friendship. We are friends and they're two of us.

Yep. That's a fact. You can't argue with it. Yeah. We're the only ones. Um, and the two of you might still be booking here, but used to be suckling at the same bosom. We did. Is that what bosom buddies refers to? Is it like, I think, I think so. I believe that if you think of the AV club as a giant wolf, yeah, right? We once both had separate wolf feats. Right. We were like, Romulus and Remus. Now we have different wolves. That's true

And your new wolf is is fox box box box Yeah, it's less of a wolf and now it's a Doesn't I was gonna make a fox joke. I don't know. Yeah, remember how at the end of every episode of Buzz and buddies Peter Scalari and Tom Hanks would like recount what happened in their day while Soaking at the press wall. Yes. Of course I do. It's one of the biggest hits of the 80s. Man, one of the biggest hits. It's a tough. Thank you so much for being here.

I'm so happy to be here. I've been on your podcast many times. You have. You have your, is it dormant? I suppose it's dormant. It's dormant. Yeah. I mean, we Libby and I keep thinking we're going to relaunch it. It's called TV on the internet. It's still on the internet and you can still find it. And it's still about TV. it and it's still about TV. Yeah

It's still about TV But but yeah, it's dormant now because Libby works for a print publication And so they're not they're yeah, yeah, they're all they're weird about the internet, so yeah What was I gonna say well you're here to talk about movie? I am and you're in town You're from you're from the city of angels. Yes Lala land Which at this point is probably one best picture this episode won't post this at this point everybody There's been a backlash. There's been a backlash to the backlash. Can we do this actually? Oh you want to you?

I'm gonna say this will probably post in like March Yeah, I know I'm gonna say moonlight you say blah-la land and let's talk about it for the rest of the episode, but let's just call our pick our best. You're calling a shot. I'm calling a shot. I'm saying moonlight. You're saying blah-la land, Todd. What do you think?

I'll say blah-la land as well. I don't think moonlight has the juice. I mean, we like the movie to be clear. Yeah. And once again, I mean, look, I'm on the record is having moonlight as my movie the year. I just, I sense a surge coming in like January. Well, right now we're reporting into December. You're gonna look hot.

That's what I'm saying. That's why I want to put the chips on Moonlight right now. Because I'm sensing a January February. This is very low stakes because like. Who fucking cares? Yeah, like in March people just be like, Oh, well, he was wrong. Yeah, right.

Or they might be like, you know, we must join the resistance. Yeah. Like, Oscars don't matter. Who cares what happened to the last Oscars? Anyway, sorry. I mean, if I was really courageous. I mean, to joke about whatever horrible shit might be happening in the future. If I was really courageous, I'd put my bat on a movie that no one's talking about now,

where if it loses or doesn't even get nominated, then it'll look like it was just a joke. And if it wins, I look like the single smartest man exists. Exactly. It's the old Shakespearean Love Trick you pulled. Right. And for that reason, I'm predicting the collateral beauty takes home seven Academy Awards.

But all technical. All technical. The film is a work of technical precision. All right. So Todd, we've known each other a very long time. Yes. And we met as Oscar Pregnoss. Weoss, who's actually way back in the day. On the message boards?

Yes, on the board. I've heard of these fabled boards. Yeah, we ride the board. Yeah, yeah. Tread the board. Yeah, tread the board. Tread the board. And I remember 2005, what was the hot movie of?

Who beat Munich? I don't even know. Crash. It lost a crash. Broke back mountain was the hot movie was the one to win. crash crash it lost a crash broke back mountain was was the hot movie was the one to win crash what a weird Oscar race that was kind of a muted Oscar race now that I think it was I recall the first year in a long time that no none of the movies had scored more than 100 miles yeah and that was like considered a big like shocker well

broke back was the highest person and it did 85 right yeah, cuz yeah, you had yeah You had some sleepers in there, you know, you had like crash Obviously was a summer movie and like they had sort of built a little good night and good luck Capote these like very very glum movies. It was it was a dour year very washed out It was it was the year of Katrina. It was the year of like the post-busha like yeah, yeah 2005 so we were in the thick of it. What I remembered, yeah, is that Todd loved Munich. I loved him. Yeah. And when the words Munich bubbled into my brain and Todd bubbled into my brain for our podcast, I was like, oh Todd's got

talked about Munich. Well, here's what I remember about the Munich thing because I wasn't, yeah, I might have been lurking those boards. I was certainly checking Oscar sites all the time. I was deep in it. I remembered there was a narrative because both War of the Worlds and Munich got pushed in production very quickly. Right. And Munich was like, he had been thinking

about making it for a while, and then suddenly it was like, he's making it. It's a three month schedule. They're shooting it in the summer. It's coming out in the fall. Like it was edited very. People almost couldn't believe that it would actually make it out because it seemed like, yeah, it seemed so hard

to turn it around. It got screened very late. I think they started production in like June. It was like kind of crazy. But that gave it this kind of like mystery box heat of like Spielberg's got this burning pattern. Sure. And of course he's making a historical true story movie. Like, surely that'll be a big deal.

And this has been like his Oscar zone before. And I remember he had a cover story of Time magazine. And I forget what the headline was, but it was like, you know, Stevens back, you know, Steven Spielberg's secret, important film or whatever it was. And the narrative I kept on seeing repeated in the press leading up to the release of the movie was like, yeah, I know Steven Spielberg has two best director trophies, but he wants three. He kept on saying like, yes, he's the most celebrated and successful director of his generation, but Howard Hawks had four. You know, like it was like that kind of thing, which was the least sympathetic narrative

of all time. But I remember people being like, he's going to drop this movie It's gonna come out late and it's just gonna fucking sweep. Because broke back at that point was like the one to beat. But you know, like, oh, it's so sad. It's, you know, like, is the Oscars? Are they ready for a gay movie? Right. Like they were ultimately proved they weren't. Right. And crash at the time was like, oh, I guess it's gonna get nominated. It has its fans. Right.

But it didn't seem like it had the juice to win. I mean, when you think about Todd, crash Todd. And when you think about Todd, crash. Yeah. Um, it is crazy. Crash Bandicoot also in the studio today. It's not too bad reviews. Crash came out to crash came out to very mediocre reviews.

There were some people, I mean, Roger Ebert loved it. Yeah, that's it. And he stumped Florida all time. It's true. And um, but New York Times and LA Times both, yeah, they both like trash and variety and holiday trash. Crash crash. Yeah. But it was a crash, sort of a surprise hit.

And like, it was like it, it's one of those LA things where people get very excited about like, here we, here we are on screen. It's very weird. Yeah. What's that thing of like, oh my god, this movie speaks to what we're going through as a nation. It's like, no, this movie speaks to what you're going through as a nation. It's like, no, this movie speaks to what you're going through as a voting member. It's Hollywood. Exactly. Yeah. Being asked to cast people and

right. Yeah, it was a movie. It was a Tony Danza. It was a movie about racism made to a switch rich white people. Yeah. They weren't that racist. And like, right. And it's just the Academy. Didn't Spanish come out the same year? You're a bull for 2004? There's a lot of real white guilt movies. Like written by like established Hollywood people who were obviously like wanted to wrestle with issues. But like you could not find the right track, you know, not find the right way to do it. And probably shouldn't have been the people

doing it in the first place. But I think yeah, post 9-11 in the middle of two wars, I think there was a lot of like looking in the mirror and being like, are we the fucking bad guys? But ultimately going like, nah, not really, right? Like all those movies kind of like, I don't know. And Munich's interesting because Munich really is like wrestling with that and has no need to answer.

Well Munich's actually good. Right, right, as opposed to the other movies. I mean, this is kind of the start of a really dark period of Oscar Best Picture win. Like, like, I mean crash is not an especially dark winner, but you get departed. You've got no country for old men. Crash is pretty dark. You've got, you've got hurt locker in there.

So it's like this, it's this list of movies that are like, you know, we've abandoned the American ideal. Well, I guess we might as well die. And it is even so dark, dog millionaire, which is the like feel good winner of 08. Like, that's, that's a, that's a dark movie. Yeah, and then the artist, which is the feel good winner of O8, that's a dark movie. Yeah, and then the artist, which is a feel good movie, is also a fucking silent film.

We have this run where for a number of years, none of the best picture winners are traditional best picture movies. Sure. They're either a traditional best picture kind of narrative in very unconventional trappings. When do you think it swings back around? Well, King's Speech in 2010, I think is the outlier. Sure, because that is. That's a classic best picture movie. I put it in 1950, yeah. Right, and then I think it swings back around? Well King's speech in 2010. I think is the outlier Sure cuz that is a classic bass picture movie I couldn't want it in 1950

Yeah, right and then I think it swings back. I don't think it's swung back because the next then you've got birdman and spotlight I think it's still like I think our goes kind of a classic bass picture winner Yeah, I just a slave. No, no, no, no, it's a thing like they've made some wild choices They made some wild choices you know assuming law assuming Lala Lenn wins it will be, but if we're like wins, and you're the genius, and I'm the genius, or collateral beauty. Yeah, you're hedging, but with collateral, I've hedged my bets.

I love Oscar talk guys, I don't know if it is funny though that we're, because yeah, Munich, I feel like Todd correct me if I'm wrong, that reception of Munich was so muted and confused. All over the place. Yeah, so all over the place, that it was almost surprising when it did eventually, it did get to the mosque,

it got nominated for picture director screenplay. Score. Everybody thought it was good, everybody thought Spielberg would get nominated, but the movie would get etched out by Walk the Line. Yes, Walk the Line was the big. And like, you know, it didn't get a lot of precursor, you know, like Golden Globe shit, you know, like so, yeah.

So it was that weird arc of, oh, it's going to be the surprise sweep of the whole season. Then people saw it and they were like, I don't know what the fuck this is. They're like, forget it. Now, it wasn't a contender. Too weird. Yeah. Then it got a bunch of major nominations, didn't win any, and it just kind of like, well, the prize was being nominated. Like, no one ever viewed it.

I think it was probably the least likely to win in the eyes of most people of the five films. Yeah, although people did start beating some drum that was like, you know, Jews, like, it is weird how sometimes people will just be like, you know what? When we're talking about the Oscars, we can just sort of say out loud that they like Jewish things. Like, you know, they can get a little uncomfortable.

But no, but this movie struggled with the perception that it was anti-Israel. Yes. As well, yeah, which is also kind of... And sort of a less prominent, but also from the, what was the American left at the time, which was like very small, but sort of the counter criticism of it

was too anti-Palestinian. Of course, right. Which is, I mean, as they say, that's a good thing, right? Yeah. When you're getting criticized from all of that, I don't know. In this movie's case, I think, yeah. I think so. I think so.

You know, this is a thing I like in movies, which is, doesn't try to provide answers, try to ask you questions. It's like a fucking Worshack test movie in a lot of ways. You know, the characters are, I remember, I think it was Mino Lozard, it doesn't matter, but it was bad. But the New York Times review of Munich

when it came out, which was very positive, and was one of the more positive ones, I remember reading at the immediate release. I'm finding it. The headline, I think, was something like, and you're probably gonna now find it. And have it right here. Correct it. You want me to say it? I think it's an actionally about the importance of talking. An action film about the need to talk. Yeah.

It was gargous. Yeah, which I, uh, I had not seen this movie until last night. I somehow didn't see it at the time. Mm-hmm. But for years, for the last 10, 11 years, I kept that in mind and watching this. It really kind of is the best description I've heard of the movie. That's what it is. It's this action movie that has no visceral pleasures to hit because it's a bunch of people in a very conflicted situation. But it still, Spielberg still makes that action pop.

That's true, that's the fun of him. You know, he gets you into it and you're like, oh, this is, and then you immediately are like, oh my God, though. Why am I enjoying this? Why? It's that out you're like, oh, this is a, and then you immediately are like, oh my god, though, why am I enjoying this? Right? It's that outage of like, you know, all war thumbs are pro war thumbs.

Like violence translates well to cinema. Oh, sure, sure. You know, it always kind of glorifies it to a degree because it's kinetic. And, but I think this movie works so hard to frame every action sequence, whether it's kind of a pop-boiler tension sequence or a sighting cathartic or whatever it is. It's so conflicted with everything it's doing.

I think it humanizes almost every single character you meet in the entire film, you know? Even the characters who are speaking a foreign language without subtitles, you get a real strong sense of like that Greek guy in the movie. Like this is a real person. You know, one's just like collateral damage in this movie.

And yeah, it is. It's a matter of beauty though. Clatter beauty though. It is a movie about like conversations and it reminds me a lot of the conversation. Interesting. I think stylistically. I had not watched it since it came out.

Is that right? Yeah. I saw it in theaters. It was my favorite movie of that year. And then I saw it on DVD and I put it aside because it's, you know, we're gonna make two hours in 44 minutes. I almost bought it and I was like, I should probably not gonna rewatch it.

Sometimes you're just in the mood for a nice, a nice Thursday Munich. Like all of the scenes I remembered were quiet conversations. Like the conversation in the safe house with the Palestinian. Yes, absolutely. And the conversation with Papa. Like I remembered those scenes. I did not necessarily remember the visceral action sequences, which are there and are great.

I remembered one of the, I remembered the, and I forgot how the hostage, you know, how the, the recreation of the Munich mask area is done. And I remembered that very viscerally. And then when in the movie when it starts and you only see a second of it,

at the start, you know, you only, I was like, oh, maybe did I like, I forgot that it's the drips and drabs. And then of course, I forgot the sexy. Everybody remembers. And I remember the I remember the sexy. Everybody remembers. And I remember the talk about the sexy. And that was the other thing this movie,

this movie has a very intense, strange, least shot. We can talk about the sexy later. It's also kind of like the only full sex scene of his entire career. It's true. Spielberg doesn't shoot a lot of sex. I was like running through my head.

And I was like, what's another Spielberg movie with like an actually intimately shot sex scene? I don't know. And it's got two essentially. Yeah. And then you also have the whole thing with Maria Jose Cros, which is just like even nudity you don't usually see in Spielberg movies, certainly not a sexualized context. And it's got Karen Hens' dick.

You see Karen Hens' shadowy peanut. You do. That is a thing you see. You got to talk about it. You see a shadow cast, Tally Wacker of Karen Hens. No, but you're, I just feel like the sex scene is a thing you see. You got to talk about it. You see a shadow cast, tallywacker of Kirin and I. No, but you're, I just feel like the sex scenes right at the end, a lot of people came out and they were like, I don't know. It has this crazy sex scene.

It's really bad. And that suddenly became like the Munich problem. Yeah, I tweeted about rewatching it and like half the tweets. What about that sexy, you know, it's, it's such a weird, crazy notion. But I think that the reason Spielberg never has sex scenes is because when Spielberg has sex, he's imagining like a perfectly framed and shot action sequence like that's his experience.

Why, close. Yeah, you know, yeah, for sure. I'm trying to, there must be a sexy in this. I mean, I was trying to think of one other one, you know, and then when I was trying to even just think of like, what are other Spielberg movies with nudity? It's like, I'm a stod in Schindler's list. Like, he only shows nudity when it's in, service of like human atrocities, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I understand like the biggest nude scene that's moving. Catch me if you can. That must have a sexiness. I feel like in a

scene where they're like jumping on beds. It has like underwear. I remember that movie and we will have rewatched it by the time it comes out, but we're recording out of order. I remember that movie cutting away before the sex ever happens or showing people in bed right after sex who are mostly close. You know what? So Spielberg's a bit of a prude, but hey, he shot a sexy. That was one of the reasons why everyone was so surprised when he gave the the pom door to Blue as the warmest color. He was like, I loved it. He was like very, yeah.

That's why he's great. Yeah. Um, good for him. I mean, you're forgetting the big sex scene at Lincoln. Oh, that is true. Just walking around naked. Yeah. Yeah. He's got the stove by bad over. Yeah. Okay. All right. Look, Munich's very serious film. Yeah. War Wars 2 has lost sex. Munich. Yeah. So it's about the 1972 Munich Olympics.

Right. As I covered in my introduction, that is. Right. And the black September hostage situation that went wrong and all everyone died in a Palestinian terrorist organization to costages, I mean Jesus Christ. So do I have to go through this bad, bad scene? It was a bad time. It was a bad time.

It was a bad one day in September, the Kevin MacDonald documentary, which is very good and very, very intense. Has an interview with one of the Black September survivors. One of the, I think the only surviving member of the attack maybe. It's a good movie. You guys ever want to check it out. Whatever happened to Kevin Donald. Need to like a YA movie with Susharone in the pair. They got released. He's made a lot. Yeah, he did. He's made a lot of weird feature films since he's very strange because he made like last a scum right then. Yeah, he's made a lot holy cow. He keeps working state of play. Remember that. Right. Remember

the eagle. Yeah, that's what people need. The chantate them to the Channing Tatin Roman paper. He made something called Marley. I was at Bob Marley document. Right. How I live now. That's the secret Ron. Yeah. And, uh, and apparently he worked on that James Franco time travel, uh, TV show. Oh, he directed the 11. No, that's right. He did. So you guys, you guys are blushing right now. Super star. Yeah. That's his count. Yeah. What a weird. Yeah. Okay. And he, yeah, he was in that. He made that submarine movie with you. Law that like didn't come out. Oh, that's his talent. Yeah. What a weird. Yeah.

Okay. And he made that submarine movie with you, Lawler, like didn't come out. Oh, that's the other black hole. Black sea. Black sea. Yeah. I don't know why we're talking about Kevin MacDonald. I mean, I know why, but he's our next subject.

So, but I mean, so at least listen to many secrets. But we're serious. So we start with a brief recreation of the beginning of that Haasit situation. We cut to the biggest star in the movie. You know her name, tell me your name. I had Zora. No, what the fuck's her name? Who plays Gold of My Year?

What's the, Lynn Cohen? Oh, Lynn Cohen. Lynn Cohen, she's Gold of My Year, Prime Minister of Israel. Yes, she's really good. Nice. She's great. It's one fantastic scene.

Yeah. And she's like, we gotta, you know, how are we gonna respond to this essentially? Because what happened was quickly the, a lot of the surviving black September who were arrested and members got released because of another hostage situation, the tons of crisis, you guys know.

So like everyone was mad and you know, so that yeah, how do we, how do we address this as Israel, as Jews, as like people under attack? What are we gonna do going back one step? Sure, I do think it's interesting that in the opening recreation a lot of it is retold through news broadcast Yeah, yeah, right. There's that as the scores playing and stuff Not just archival footage, but watching a lot of different people across the world watching the story be covered by different anchors and different outlets.

Right. And there was this thing where like the ang- briefly all the reporters thought that it was resolved what like that the hostages were okay and that these terrorists were dead and then they realized like no, they're all gone. There's that. Is it? How would Chris? So who the hell is it?

Who would know? It's because it was there for the Olympics. Right. And he says they're all gone. And it's I mean, it feels weird. Jim McKay says Jim McKay says they're all real. Yeah. Right. And he says they're all gone. And it feels a weird. Jim McKay says Jim McKay says they're all real. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but it's really. It's really. He's 72. Yeah. bizarre footage. Yeah. But I also think it immediately frames,

you know, uh, people would expect, I think, especially out of Steven Spielberg making a movie out of this subject matter that he would give you a nice, tidy way to interpret everything that happens. Sure. You know, like, here's how you should view it. And especially when it's someone who has been such a big supporter of Israel throughout his life.

Sure. I mean, yeah. I mean, we're watching all these different people watch the story be covered in different ways. And it kind of sets you up to think like, okay, we're gonna be given the news, the stray facts that sort of way. And then from then on out, the movie is on the ground floor with people who don't really know what the fuck they're doing.

And I wrestle with it. And we don't really deal with the media again after the introduction. No, and I also like that we're focused on one team of this operation that they organized to operation what's it called, a sort of vengeance or something crazy like that, a wrath of God. It's a very focused movie.

I mean, they're not trying to cover the entirety. Right. And then only at the end of the movie do we realize, right, this was not like the whole operation. This is just one team of essentially assassins or, you know, like spies like. Toy makers. Toy makers Danish Antiquity I What's the word for when you decide how much money something costs a prazer a prazer?

Yeah, no, just one team that is right is carrying hands is shadowy penis. It's just a team an oddball team of and the man attached to it as well He came along right he's in it. I forgot about that. I forgot that he is. He's so good. He's so good. But, but come on, guys. Lynn Cohen, give it up. Lynn Cohen. Yeah. Great performance. Great performance. I do. I do remember that when people first started seeing this, I think you would like David Poland was like, Oh, Lynn Cohen. There's your Oscar winner. Watch out.

Lynn Cohen, if Lynn Cohen was in 25% of this movie giving that performance like sure. Yeah. Sure. Let's talk about it. It's very strange call. It's just the one scene. Can I can I throw some real inside baseball for one second? Yeah. Sure. If I were a rival studio and there was like, you know, a front runner who I felt stood in the way of my contender, I would hire David Poland to say that they were going to it. That's the easiest way to knock someone out of the running is for Dave Polin to go. They're going to win. That's good. Thank you. Inside baseball. Done. David Polin though. Thank you. Shout out. Shout out. Polin. Shout out to Paul. Oh, okay. All right. I already told Todd this. I forgot

to tell you this last weekend. Again, this is months after the incident. Dave, Jeff Wells emailed me. What? Isn't that crazy? This is the most interesting thing. So context for our listeners, Jeff Wells is a troll who lives under a bridge on the internet and pokes people with a stick and just spouts lunacy. He's done many terrible things, but by far the weirdest is when he thought he had reserved a hotel room with a hat. You can go and find that on the line if you search for it.

Do you not know this story? He thought the hotel room came with a hat or... Okay, I got to tell this to the best story of all time. And even if you don't have the fun with the fun we're talking about, this story is objectively funny. He looks like... He looks like Christopher Wocking Cows playing as a vampire, right? Oh, I've seen him in real life.

He looks like an aging cause playing as a vampire, right? Oh, if I've seen him in real life, he looks like he looks like an aging penny martial. He's a missing throat. He's a misogynist. He thinks like we all should be tough tough guys. Right. Right. He's very into like masculinity and he's the Zen Samurai warrior poet. Isn't that the his thing? throws out? Emotionally vivid. Right. So he, and he does shit like he'll like, you know, have a tinfoil wrapped piece of cake that'll bring to a restaurant and then I'll ask if they can serve him a plate so he can eat the dessert. He brought from home and then get angry when they tell me can't bring his own dessert

into a fancy restaurant. Right. But the story was he was at Sundance where rooms fill up like super quickly. Far in advance, people have to book their rooms at Sundance because it's not a huge city and the desire of hotels that are close to where the theaters are, hard to come by. He had a hotel room and when he left and he checked out, he put his cowboy hat on the desk, on the counter

and said, I'll be back for this next year. When he thought that was enough. A year later, he arrives at Sundance and goes, Jeff Wells checking in and they go, you don't have a room book. And he goes online. He goes online. Yeah, I think they had to dig through it. They went, we don't, that was the further insult. And he went, well, what about my hand? They went, what fucking

hand? But he, he went on, he went, if a man leaves a hat on a counter, it is very clear. Deadwood. That's, that's the problem with Jeff Wells is he thinks he's living in deadwood. He thinks it's constantly a last stand for masculinity and in his small movements, say volumes, speak volumes. But he's a horrible person. Yeah, he's bad. Anyway, he got mad at me because I mentioned Casey Affleck's legal issues.

And then Maddening you. In an Oscar prediction piece, just brought up the fact that you know this has been coming up? That is a fact and it's a case that's been public for five or six years. He was, you know, sued for harassment. You know that. I'm not and it said something like that could come back to, you know, Haunt him and the Oscar race or something like that. Anyway, he said that I was um falsely equating his bullish behavior with Nate Parker, how dare I, you know? No. And yeah, and he's the thing that,

Affleck's thing, direct quote, was nothing compared to the Parker thing or the Polansky thing, tedious and unwelcome behavior that he paid to settle. Yeah, they see the word thing. Much less match. The agonies and the people is associated with Parker. This is my way of addressing it Todd, because I asked you what to do

and you were like, don't email back. And I was like, don't email back. Also, you know what, maybe let's not sit around and rank which sexual assaults are worst or better than others. I'm just realizing that sometime in March, I'm gonna get a tweet that's like an aging penny marshal. I'm gonna I'm just realizing that sometime in March, I'm going to get a tweet that's like an aging penny Marshall. I'm gonna be like, what the fuck is that? He does listen

to this show and he's going to be our guest on the 1010 episode. Um, he also wants, and I think more than once, but one time very publicly, uh, emailed James Mangol director of 310 to you, ma. Yes. Because there was a scene where actress Vanessa Shaw was naked but covered. And he believed that there must be on set stills of her fully disrobed and asked her to just, you know, pass along the stills, which is a thing that maniacs to. And somehow didn't like kill his career. I mean, he's unemployed. What is his career? Exactly. Right. He has such an odd career. But like he's, I don't understand how like he gets money. Yes. He gets money. Like he gets, he's like he apparently lives a jet setting life.

So I love that we're going this deep in the Jeff Walls. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I brought it up and we can cut it if we go too long here. But what I just had to tell you, but that's important for our listeners to know that a cowboy hat is not a binding reservation. Not at a restaurant, not at a hotel. Also comes up in Munich. Comes up in Munich.

It does, I mean, emotionally vivid a cowboy hat. They trace the cowboy hat back to them. That's how they know. So Eric Bonna. Yes. The actor Eric Bonna. And I was, you know, I was looking through Eric Bonna. What a like, rapid rise and fall. Weird. And I got no beef with Eric Bonna. What a like rapid rise and fall.

Weird. And I got no B for the Eric Bonnet. I think he's excellent in this movie. I don't know if you guys agree. I think it's a very good act. Yeah. But it is funny how like this is the, this is it. This is the end of Eric Bonnet.

This was like third strike. You know, you're your at bat. We're giving you three to be a leading man. And it was like Hulk. Hulk no three. People hate that movie. Troy and O4. Yep.

Right, which did really well, but it didn't like it really. Not not, not really. Well, I remember that guess. And he certainly didn't really stick in that. Although I'd say he's pretty good in it. I think he's pretty good in Hulk too. I think he's pretty much good. He's got no one in Hulk.

I mean, Hulk's a weird movie. And that's her piece. I think it's a word. Yeah. And then Munich. And think it's the word. Yeah. And then Munich. And then yeah, after that, like, lucky you two years later, the other Berlin girl,

which I like Eric Bona, but he's horrible in that movie. Yeah, I can imagine. And then he's the villain in Star Trek. Oh, well, remember, Eric Bona, like. And then funny people that same year, it was like, oh, he's a kind traveler's wife. Yeah.

And then, you know, now he's just kind of floating and he's not gone. No, he was in the finest hours. He was pretty good there. And his and Eric Banna. No, not bad. But although he has like a text and accent or something. Yeah, it's terrible.

Yeah. Everyone's accents in that movie are real, real fun. Well, it is a weird arc because he was an Australian comedy star. Yeah, he was in like the castle and he had like a sketch show. Yeah, he did like sketch TV and sitcoms, you know, and he was really funny, but he was this conventionally good looking guy and he usually was funny up ending that, you know, he kind of was doing like a twist on Stray Man stuff. Sure. And he most notorious. He's always. Australia is three people. Right. I mean, my same regal passed guest on this show. Oh, he said like that shows you what Australia is like.

This is the worst criminal we had. Three murders. There. Um, and, uh, and he's like a live wire in that movie. He gained a bunch of ways. Yeah. Looks great. And he plays this very charismatic, very terrifying person.

It's weird that then everyone shifted to going, oh, this is a conventional leading man. Well, man, but you gotta remember, then he's in Black Hawk Down, which he's fantastic in, which is more of a, he's playing like a tough, chiseled soldier. He looks great. He's really intense. I love him in that movie. But that comes off of chopper. Yes.

No, but I think, but then I remember seeing Black Hawk Down and already knowing of that point, he had been cast as the whole. I know, but like, but like, they see that and they're like, right, yeah, like I think but then I remember seeing black hook down already knowing at that point He had been cast but like right but like they see that and they're like right. Yeah, like this guy's hot Yes, but yeah, he's really good on black huck down. He gets the final monologue and he kind of nails it It's great who and then yeah, a whole It's hard with that one. I got it. Do you know who is supposed to be Hulk? Who Billy crude up Which is why if you look at Anglic's Hulk, the Hulk looks like Billy Crude up. I swear to you, like a grumpy Billy Crude up. Yeah, it's got Billy Crude space. I swear to you. Sure. Eric Benning gets slotted in very last second. Oh, wow,

this is huge. Yeah, right. I mean, it's like, okay, you know, X-Men made Hugh Jackman. Right. Spider-Man at the time it felt like To Tob McGuire was now made and then he didn't really do movies. No, and he's a weird little weasel guy. Right. So, you know, he's never going to be anyway. But it was like, here's a new anointment. Sure.

And then people hate that movie. Yeah. Hate that movie. But Troy was already running, right? And then, you know, Troy makes money, but nobody likes Troy and then there's this. Right. And this, I remember. This is supposed to rebrand him as like a serious. That was a great one.

I remember people being like, okay, he tried to do two summer blockbusters and they didn't really work. But now this is who Eric Vanne is. He's an Oscar perennial. Yeah. And then you see him in this and he's really solid in this, but it's not a very showy part. No. I mean, his job is just to kind of hold the movie.

Yeah. It's not an Oscar nomination type. No. This was a year where they had to go out of their way, not to nominate him, invest actor, and they did go. And they did. Yeah, let me let me let me let me let me let me let you guys some in ledger.

It's a topman and ledger and be extra thern and stritheren, yes. Yeah. And then there's the fifth nominee. And is it hustle and flow? Yeah. Yeah.

So I'm like, they like, stritheren and tarantowns, how are they both that were kind of on the outside looking in And then yeah, I'm very happy for Terrance Howard's nomination in that movie. He's great in that He's terrific in that movie. Yeah, but you're absolutely right They also didn't know many people Mortensen got a lot of good Actors that year who you know counter-reves and constant team like that's no that's a really good performance Uh, Mike Lennorano and Sky hi, I mean we're talking like these were the guys who were like six seven eight you know, counter-reves and constant team like that's no. That's a really good performance.

Oh, fucking. Michael and Nirono and Sky. Hi, I mean, we're talking like these were the guys who were like six, seven, eight, you know. Keep going, maybe Nicholas Cajun, Lord of War. Yeah. Well, was whether man that year, maybe it might have been. It was either O5 or O6. I would have nominated Nick Kitch and whether man, no question.

O5. He had that bow and arrow. Yeah. I mean, I would have put Christian Bell on Batman begins for a graffiti. He's, he's, I think that's the one Batman movie where he has a full performance because I give him a lot. It's a great performance. He's amazing in that. Yeah. Anyway, the movie's called Munich. It does not feature Batman. So Eric Bonna plays Avner Kaufman, who is a made up character and yet they keep talking about his dad is like a War hero. Yeah, so I guess he's supposed to be burdened by some kind of like patriotic responsibility that he wants to live up to. Can I just quickly point out that none of the three major actors in the movie? Yeah. I want to say Daniel Craig's due. He's not. I look for I just want it. I just want him. This was one of them. One of them for our team. This was one of two angry Jews get vengeance movies

that Daniel Craig did. It's true. And he's a fair haired blue-eyed blonde brisk. Steely Brit. Yeah. Born and Chester. Britain. Nothing reads Jewish about him.

I had to look it up because I was like, he's a French Huguenot ancestry. He is not Jewish. No, no. I'm not offended by it. Like I'm not saying that to bring up a steak, but it is a little bit like 10 years earlier he would play. You would have this guy as like the the the racist in like Gandhi.

Or like, you know, some kind of African like, you know, like he played like an Afro-Conner, you know, president. The Brady student in school ties or something. Like he looks like the, what do you want to say? Bigoted in TagonS. If you believe the Holy Blood Holy Grail theory, the Huguenose are descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene

and Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was a Jew, but I have a question for you. Was Mary Magdalene? Because it's through the mother. It's through the mother. She was. She was.

All right, then we're cool. Fair enough. I think you're correct that she was. Although the Jews at the time were not happy with it. Yeah, I just like that they picked like three actors, like an Australian, a Brit. And Jeffrey rushes Australian to, right? Two of them. Yeah, cheering Hens is Irish. Right. Yeah.

And they were just like, I don't know. Just get guys with weird noses. No, I mean, they get these guys who, I mean, not Daniel Craig, but here in Hens, Eric Bonna, like, they have sort of a, like a Sephardic look, like, slightly, like, you know, a little more of a Mediterranean look, I guess, if you know, have their hair. I remember from the time that they were talking about that, like, these guys were not necessarily, like, the character, the real people that these fictional characters are based on were like not necessarily going to be like like the Daniel Craig character was fair hair. Okay. So that was there out for it. Yeah. I mean, I don't care. But they're all fictional characters anyway. So they are all fictional. I guess they're like composites. Yeah. So they could have just done whatever they want.

But Matthew Kassivitz, I will point out he is Jewish. And he's the one who played the Jew in La'ane in his breakout role. Which he directed as well. I know he directed that. He's not in. No, it's not. It's not a Cassalus. Yeah.

And then he directed Gothic. I forget. Then he directed Gothic and won the Oscar. He is unsurprisingly my favorite character in the film. He's terrific. But, but, I'll say, They assembled this team for Avner. And it's, you've got, and it's assembled by Ephraim who is Jeffrey Rush, who is his sort of family girl.

Yeah. Who is terrific? What do you think of Jeffrey Rush Todd? I'm a Jeffrey Rush fan, me too. I like him here. And let's, let's go a little more background. Eric Banna is kind of a straight arrow guy, but, but tightly wound. His wife is like three months away from giving birth. He's got a pregnant wife who we like Steph's ex with. But also love of country.

You know, likes to have sex with the country too. Yeah. He loves talking to that country sideways while she's pregnant. Absolutely. So they assemble this team and it's a South African driver. I guess Daniel Craig's the wheels guy. I guess. I mean, he's just sort of your number two. Yeah. His name is wheels, her squits and this movie isn't. His name I think is like Steve. It's not like really like a Jewish warrior. Steve blonde. Steve of the Maccabees. Guys, we can do all this. You've got a Matthew Cassivitz, he's a toy maker, and a bomb maker, I guess, as a result. Although, let's be, I like his performance a lot. This guy is a shitty bomb maker.

Terrible. He makes like three bombs. One of them works. One of them is too powerful. And one of them blows him up. Like, he's not like a great, like, they maybe should have like combed Israel a little harder for him. Okay, what I like about him is is the movie knowledge is that, right?

He also, I also think he's kind of in his own inspirational Disney underdog movie, which is like the little bomb maker could. He just, everything's against him, but he just believes someday he's going to make a great bomb. This is also unquestionably who I would play in this movie, right? Because I always play that game where it's like, okay, who would I play in this movie? I just I chew that shit up so hard. Little little little frency Jew toy maker. Yeah, that's me. You kid me. I so who would I play? Who would you play? You play Wheel of Tars schools. Yeah, because I'm sort of a fair

I heard you. No, I think you'd be I think you'd maybe be Kieran Hines. Well Kieran Hines, Carl Carl, he's, I mean, he looks like an accountant, but I mean, I think the idea is that he's a former sort of tough guy, Mossad soldier, or something. Like he's like, he's someone who's like got some blood on his hand. He's a regular Gal Gadot type. I don't know what that means. Gal Gadot former Mossad agent, which is pretty crazy. Awesome. I always like to point out that Wonder Woman has almost definitely killed people. Jesus. That's probably.

Then there is Hans played by Anithal. Hans Zichler. He's the sort of... He's like the Danish antiquity guy. Yeah. He's great. He's really good. Who is that guy? No idea. Are they fucked? Did they fight? Yeah, everyone's great. I would say everyone's great in this movie. But like, I mean, I'm looking out. I mean, he's a German actor. He's been some German stuff. I don't know what to tell you. He's great. I think he's terrific and is, you know, this is this is the thing I like about this movie in the part that's like I think leftover from Eric Roth script is the scene where they're like, here's what everybody's job is and then the movie just utterly just forgets about this. This's very care. This is not a movie that is process oriented.

This is not a movie where I mean, we get through osmosis and through some dialogue that they're going to Matthew Almondrike's character or what's his name, Louis. And he sells them information and they use this information to you. But it never says who are these people they're trying to kill? Who, what do they do? Why are they, it's all vague. You would think there would be a script where it never says like who are these people they're trying to kill who like what do they do?

Why are they you know, it's all vague like you would think there would be a script where it would be like You would maybe Be watching someone then it would cut to a black and white photograph and then they'd be like looking at the table And they'd be like there's you know, oh the jackal, you know, he killed eight Israelis and a bomb Oh, that's why we got a kill Can't ever do that deadly fold the flat like it feels like you could do the suicide squad, Amanda Waller explanation for every character in this movie. It's a two hour 45 minute movie.

It's not like they didn't have the time. But it shows you that's not what he's concerned with. But as you're so is air cross script first? Yeah, he wrote the he wrote the original script and then Tony Kushner did punch up, which was apparently just like basically a page one rewrite. Right. You can tell. Right. And then they kept credit it. They kept Roth's structure. So it's a pretty cushy scrap. Yeah. I think we can all agree. Yeah. I mean, and they he never worked with Roth again or before.

Roth is going to weird career. Yeah. Because he wrote Faras come. So obviously that's his sort of like eternal calling card. But he also wrote like the Postman and like the horse whisperer like a lot Eric Roth. No, I was going, who? It sounded like who? Who? If you guys do a Eric Roth miniseries, I'm there for every episode. You want to be in there? You want to be in there for a movie he wrote called Jane's House. Oh, no, it was a TV movie. Well, I was reading. But he also, of course, wrote like the insider and Ali. He like worked with Michael Manellot. He wrote Benjamin Button. Well, I was reading an interview with Spielberg

because I've just been reading a lot of Spielberg. It's really recently, while doing this podcast, a cruise and Spielberg apparently came close to doing Benjamin Button years earlier. I would have been weird. Really weird. I would have been a weird movie. But in that period of time where they had been dying to make a movie together, I would have been a weird movie. But in that period of time where they had been dying

to make a movie together, my horror movie, that is. Weird movie. I love that movie. I love that movie. That's a great take. I haven't heard that taken a while. I like that movie a lot.

I think that movie's due for re-evaluating it. Yeah, because I was thinking about the movie, and I'm like, I saw it, and I remember that it's about a little man who turns into a sexy young baby, but I do not remember the movie that well. And I was just seeing hidden figures, and and I was like, oh, yeah, remember when Taraji and Michelle Lee, they were married and Benjamin button, like eight years ago. Yeah. And now they're flirting again. They're

flirting up a storm. I find Todd's least favorite movie of 26. It's, it's fine. I don't, I don't hate it. But yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I'm not as gongho about it as, as David, who it, it, but yeah. I'm like you can't hate it. I'm not as gong-ho about it as David, who it's his favorite, 26th. Absolutely. I find, bang in the drum. I find Benjamin Button really interesting because I think people at the time wrote it off

as this is failing to be Forrest Gump. Yes. Like they were like, this is what it's aiming to do and it doesn't hit. And I think it's a movie that is not concerned with being emotional. Yeah. I think it's a movie that is not concerned with being emotional. I think it's a very existential meditative movie. I need to rewatch it.

It's David Fincher's Wes Anderson movie. Right, we feel like people at the time were like, this is an Oscar movie from Fincher. Like Fincher's usually all fucked up. And like he just played it safe to get an Oscar nomination. And I think that's, I mean, he was just going to have a huge misread of David Fincher because he would never be interested in that kind of shit.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's a very cynical movie. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's about like how, how sort of inherently doomed this guy is to live alone. Right. Sure. And I also think it's, it's like, pointedly bottled in all of its emotions. I mean, he holds away from all the big scenes. And I also just think like, he's so unconcerned for a guy who's so meticulous about thinking through the reality of what happened to recreating things. He's so unconcerned with the logic of the situation

that doesn't really make any sense, that he's using it in kind of like, you know, an abstract expressionistic way to get at these ideas of just like a man out of place and out of time. But was it a better expression of that concept than the fourth season of Morgan Mindy where their child was played by Jonathan Winters as Merck? I mean, I think you're about equal. I do. I think they're very similar. This is why you get Vandiver. This is why you get V&D.

There was some buddies. Those two things. It's also, I think that movie is interesting because of how little narrative effect the lead character has. Yeah. Like, he just kind of wanders through shit and rather than force gump, it's like, but he was at the right place at the right time. It's like, no, this guy just kind of wandered through life and he never really fit in anywhere. Yeah, but guys, we're talking about me. So he is almost a steam.

I mean, like you said, like, and I know we say this on the podcast all the time. The plot is, there's no plot. It's Vignetti. It's very, very Vignetti. It's a series of, yeah, it's a series of quote unquote missions, but they're not connected. It's almost nightmarish this movie in terms of how it kind of like just barfs out some new scenario that's, you know, always like morally very muddy and confused and like completely isolated from information. Like we don't know who's this nice He goes to the nice Italian like shop and these likes the clerk lady and he's buying some sausages like we got a murder this He looks like a fucking playwright. He doesn't look like so dare you know

He's in like a tweed suit, you know, go on No, that's what I was gonna say you were talking about the lack of sort of exposition, explaining who these people are, what they have to do, and that we're just sort of seeing. Structurally, this movie is actually kind of similar to like something like elephant, where it's like this repetitive, like we're gonna see, you know, them understanding what they have to do,

them doing it, and then sort of processing it afterwards. And it's that sort of in a series, but in this kind of, I mean, almost abstract way, because you're not giving out much context. And I think what's interesting about that is you're kind of knowing as much as they would know. In a way, I mean, sure they had probably briefing a little more information,

but it also is like you're forced to look at these people, they're about to kill the same way they would in a situation where there's that galt of like, are they, they seem like a nice guy. This is just a dude in a nice jacket. Like, why would I have to kill this guy? Right. Well, that first scene of the first assassination where it's you're maybe a night sky or that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. With cassowets and Bona are pointing the guns at him and they like don't even want a fire, even the like no attempt. Right. And that thing where he's like sort of like, no, no, no, no, and he's like trying to push Casabets his gun down.

He makes all the violence feel very real. Like the bullets, like the gunshots are very loud and kind of jarring and not, it's like not poppy, you know, not Hollywood, but also it is kind of exciting. One of my favorite shots in the movie is on the balconies at the hotel. Oh, yeah. And it's a bonus standing there, and then there's his target.

The next one over, and then there's a couple of things. Just fucking all the time. There's so good. The canoe-deling, the classic canoe-deling couple. Do you think Steven Spielberg at this time was just like, really like, man, everyone's getting laid. Like, he was just really like a dog. He just got into sex for the first time.

But yeah, there's a, and so it's kind of shot in, it's shot in wide and deep focus. So you have all these like different little stories playing out in the same shot. Right. And it's just by not talking to this guy. And it's like, you know, you're still early in the movies. You're still like, yeah, these guys are gonna get these terrorists.

But like it's every shot even underlines that these are like human beings. Right. That maybe they, maybe they were responsible for this horrible atrocity. But like they still probably don't deserve to be blown up in a hotel room. With no trial or no, you know, evidence, presentation of evidence or anything like that. Well, if you had scenes with Jeffrey Rush giving him the dossier and explain who everyone is and what they did, then you as an audience because that scene would then have to quickly because it's a movie and there's a finite amount of time. You're like, great. I get it. I get it. This guy's bad. I know how to view it. I'm not going to have any sympathy for him. But in real life, you were handed a dossier like that

and then you had a little time to think over it and then you see someone in real life. My part of your job is like making sure they're them so you kind of talk to them for a minute and you're like, oh, you know, what's up? Right. Unless you're a sociopath, you're going to have some feeling of like, are you sure this is the right guy? Are you sure they did it? Yeah. They seem decent. And by robbing us of those sort of explanations,

the movie forces you to be in the same position that someone like Eric Vanna would, which is like looking at the gestures these characters are making, how they're interacting with other people, the little glimpses we get of their lives and being like, this doesn't seem like someone who needs to be assassinated. Yeah, which makes it all upsetting and kind of terrible.

And then also that assassination right is the bed bomb, right? And so that's the one that almost blows up the sexy couple and they like, they make sure that the sexy couple's okay and they're all after you can't see the traumatized. She can't see. He also, he shoots, I feel like every, he shoots and cuts every sequence of this movie

with the same amount of tension. So you feel as nervous in the scenes where someone does actually end up doing something as the scenes where nothing happens. Like he's using the language of thrillers and of tension to like when when you're watching him have the conversation with the guy and the couple there, you don't know if anything's going to happen in that scene because he's been ratcheting it so much consistently that you're like, this might be a misdirect. When also there's that, like they suddenly, the couple, they're so fucking in love with each other.

They like bang into a shutter or something and it makes a noise and it like startles him and like, you're, it's such an edgy. I remember I saw this. I saw this in the theater and I just remember being this very jangly edgy movie that's like, you know, the explosions are all very visceral and like not fun explosions. I don't know that there's a director working

who's better at making you feel exactly what he wants you to feel in Steven Spielberg. And this movie is just like constant paranoia. Right, and that's why I guess why he gets hit with manipulative. But like that's manipulative means that he gets hit with manipulative. Yeah. But like that's manipulative means that you can like see the strings really easily and you feel manipulated right?

Like, you know, like, you're just like, oh, you're just trying to get a rise out of me. And Spielberg's. He's a fact. This is no monster calls. Boom. Roast. Yeah. Is this movie about Steven Spielberg losing his virginity?

The more I think about it, it feels like someone who just had sex for the first time and can't stop sharing details about like, as if they've already had sex, like, Hey, you know my favorite part is sex is, you know when you're sexing somebody, you're just so excited to join the table. Uh, you also have those sex and commercial issues. Well, also when he had sex is someone he had a feverish image of the 1972 Munich massacre of the Israeli athletes. Right. He was like, I guess that's, he called up Kushner and he was like, can you write a movie about this weird sex dream I had?

He's like, that's a real thing that happened. So but we should say as part, as this is unfolding once in a while, as Bonnus character sleeping and guessing, this is a bit of a Hollywood storytelling device. But he has these visions of the hostage situation of 1972, which are also very grim and very, and similarly, there's a similarly amateurish quality, like sort of on both ends, which I like that mirroring. Like, Bona's team, you know, they're a bunch, they seem like a bunch of middle managers who've been like given guns and elicit names and like go kill people.

And like the hostage, you know, the black September, the terrorists, they seem like they don't know what they're doing, right? Half the time they just fire their guns wildly because they just know they're in trouble or something has to happen. I don't know. It's all very chaotic and they're really scary scenes. The host is. Can we talk about the safe house section in the middle

of the movie? This is Todd's favorite. No, you, you refuse. No, no, no, we, because it's too, because it's too perfect. You don't want to, no, we can talk about it. With Papa, you mean? No, with the, when they are at the safe house that Louis has something to and the past coming are also there.

Yeah. And they listen to Al Green's, let's stay together. They do. No, right. That's a great scene. Yeah. The only song that can cure, that can affect world peace. Yeah, right. If only, if only like we could have that at the table right now, just the Algreens. You see? He's not Algreens so alive.

They're everyone. He's still going. I think he's still alive. Um, that conversation he has. So gone. Yeah. Uh, smoking. Yeah. But the Palestinian guy is so fucking good. It is because it's just like, Oh, this is like an infinite feedback loop. This is something that can't be untangled. And that's something the movie is reinforcing throughout, which is like, again, Bona doesn't know what's happening to the outside world that much.

But we're hearing like, look, you know, you kill these terrorists, more terrorists just sort of pop up. Even more radical terrorists often, you know, because you're martering people and you're,tering people, you're making this a war, and the next soldiers are even scarier than the last ones. So very early in the film, a lot of the time when there's a foreign language, and it's not important to the plot, it's not subtype. Very early in the film, they go to this lecture from a woman who's talking about in German, I believe.

She's babbling. Yeah, she's talking about how you need to get beyond concepts of good and evil and like see the systems that are oppressing you and all this stuff. It's very Tony Kushner. It's like he just randomly dropped in somebody from Angels in America in the middle of this. But and I love the fact that she's saying that and I think it's Eric Bonn and Matthew Amariecker in meeting in that scene, right? And they're like, and he's like, what the fuck is she saying?

He's like, I don't know. I never know what she's talking about. Like, she's like dispensing this sort of almost accidental profundity. And that anyway, here's 60 grand. Yeah. And that like becomes the like loadstone for the movie, like the North Star, like everything in the movie points toward, you need to get beyond seeing good and evil and understand that like there's, it's not even like shades of gray. It's like they don't exist. Like, you've invented a dialectic that is pointless. pointless right and if you can't get beyond that You can't like see

Anything clearly and that's sort of what that safehouse scene says to me is like they all want home, but like home is this Weird concept to begin with. Well, those are like the two sort of biggest themes I feel like he keeps on hitting on in a traditional Spielberg-y way. You know, like, okay, here's a clear thesis that's running through the movie. This concept of what home is that what drives everyone is just being able to have a home and be safe in your home, which is like one of the three most primal human instincts that we cannot kick out of our system. No matter how much we develop as a society, everyone just wants to have a home, feel like

they own it, feel like they're protected there. And that's, you know, like maybe the most feel berggy moment in the movie is when you have Eric Banna looking at the model kitchen in the window and seeing the reflections of cassivites there, which then turns into Matthew Almerich and it's like this whole thing of like, okay, what is he actually fighting for?

Like what is a home actually, you know? this feels like it's a representation of the kind of kitchen I'd want to live in, but what price does that come at literally? I mean, this is the one scene where I think he lays it on a little thick, right? I like going to spill it, Stevie lays it up there. I'm not complaining, but it is, he goes blunt here because I'm like, it goes like, it's nice kitchen, but it will cost you, you know, like that kind of thing. That's true. They literally, they, all the subtext becomes tax. Yeah.

But home is the main thing driving all these people, which is very relatable. Right. And we should say in the safe house scene, they're all pretending to be like, he's like, I'm at a, like, he's pretending to be part of the bass liberation movement or maybe the like the barter made hop.

Like all of these sort of liberation movements of the era that we're about, like, finding a home for ex people. Right. And then I think that's the second big thing about the movie is like identity and allegiance. Like who are you part of? Not who are you as a person,

but who are you in relation to what you are united with? Because you have people hiding behind layers and layers and layers of deception, but it's constantly coming under question, like who are you working for? I told you I'm working for that. No, I know you're working for this, but you think you're working for that.

You're actually working for this. You, I know you're working for this, but you think you're working for that. You're actually working for this. You know, everyone has like bought into, to some degree or another, some kind of community, or some kind of, you know, legacy, or some nationalism, some pride, whatever it is, that they feel like they need to represent that or defend that or attack the other. But no one really knows where they stand.

Omar Mettwally. And that's since it's really good. And that's since it's interesting that the movie ends in Brooklyn. Right, that's he had that he's robbed of his home and of at home, yeah, home of the movie Brooklyn. Oh, that's why I recognize it. I was saying the whole time I was like,

I know I've seen this in the first. I mean, this is the first in Brooklyn was the second. But it's not only that he is an immigrant now to another country and it's not only that he is an immigrant now to another country. And it's not only that the United States has always sort of self-conceptualized it as self, as a home for people from everywhere. And New York especially. And you're always in.

And but it's also like the United States is a country where often your identity as an American is secondary to your identity as something else. Like you are an American, but you're all, you're a Jewish American. You carry your baggage as an American. Exactly. And that comes first before American. That's the first word in the hyphen, you know? Yeah, that is really interesting.

I just think... Manoma had a line I want to find out. But we can get back to it. Keep talking. Yeah, it's just... I mean, say palisines, good. I love that poppacine. Poppacine.

Yeah, let's talk about that. Michael Lonsdale. Yeah.'s say Michael Lonsdale. Yeah. That's Michael Lonsdale. I get is he the father of on the reekers? Yeah, he's he's I mean, it's entirely possible. They're making it up. But yeah, he's he claims to be there at least involved together.

They're involved. You know, and they these are people and this is another fascinating sort of shade of gray, right? Is like they sell secrets from everyone to everyone. Like there's no partisan thinking. There's no like allegiance or patriotism at work. Like they're simply like traffickers and information. Well, much like Dominic Torreto, his priority is protecting his family.

Right. And you see, you're saying Papa's priority. Papa's priority is if they added Papa to the fast and the furious series. They could tomorrow. London's Dale. Yeah. He's still alive. He's 85. if they added Papa to the fast and the furious series. They could tomorrow. Lonsdale. Yeah. He's still alive. He's 85.

Oh, he'd be perfect. He'd be perfect. Yeah. Yeah. He'd be great. What if it literally he plays Papa and like it's Dom needs some info and he goes to Papa and Papa is like Corona. Yeah. Papa's like carving the fat off of like a rabbit or whatever.

You know, he's like, he's making some unpasteurized cheese. And he's like, no, dumb of, you know, that'd be great. And we realized that these are in a shared universe. But that is, and Papa doesn't feel an allegiance to a country to religion, you know, to race, Papa's allegiances to family. And every time we see him, he's at this massive estate, they keep on talking about how much money he's made, and the point of that money was to be able to support

all of these people, to create this sort of commune almost. You know, it feels like he lives in this bubble where it's just great food and all of his family, and the way that we don't know for sure, if Umarik is actually somebody, because we don't know at all, if anything they're saying is true. The family's so big, we don't know how much of it is blood and how much of it is blood

and how much of it's chosen. Yeah. You know, but it is the sense of like, he chose his people, this is who he's protecting, this is what he stands for. And everyone else in the movie is kind of constantly questioning, you know, where they fit into it. And he's the one guy who's got his feet totally planted. He's also the most even killed calm person

in a very jittery movie. Yeah. And a movie where everyone's always on edge. He's the one guy who is just like, I know what I've done. I've made my deal. I've made my bet and make sure to get this fat off of that. You got to get the fat. Also, it comes back in toward the end and is vaguely threatening. Yes.

Like throws the movie completely off the race. Yeah. I sort of, I took that scene as him giving him kind of a friendly warning. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You go tracks. He's Hugo Drax in Moonraker. Oh, right. Yeah, he's the villain of Moonraker. Yeah, I want to say. Um, just one set. I want that on the record.

Thank you, Dave. Wait, where's Ben? Prusa, we haven't even introduced Ben in this whole episode. We've been so, so having so much fun talking Munich. The bend is a Ben, are you here? Yeah, I'm here. The Poet Laurel. Our fine film critic. Yeah. The peeper. The bend user? Ben, are you here? Yeah, I'm here. Do you remember? The poet laureate? Are finds film critic?

Yeah. The peeper? I've been known to look just to the next. The fuck master? Yeah. For my talk questions. The part detective. Dirt bike, Benny?

Mm-hmm. You're not Professor Chris, right? No. No. Okay. But you have graduate to certain tells of the course of different things, right? Yeah. Okay, can I just run a couple of about the course of different things, right? Yeah. Okay.

Can I just run a couple of buy you and you tell me if they're correct or not? I will confirm if they're correct. Yes. Pretty sure they're in Kenobi. True. Kylo Ben. True.

Ben Hachan one. True. Ben Sey. Oh yeah, true. Say Ben anything. Da, da, da, da. Ealy Ben's with a dollar sign at the end. Just call them Ealy Ben's.

Yeah. Yeah. Those are his names. Okay. Great. Also, also the goiest goi of all gois. Yeah, how'd you feel about this big old jufest? It's great. I really can't add very much. Cool action movie.

The context with the whole Palestine Israel thing makes me uncomfortable being on the record talking about it So I'm not gonna take myself off the record. Mm-hmm. I'll throw this out In espionage movies it seems like the it's like a trope to have a kid almost get killed Sure. Oh, yeah, yeah, we haven't seen them. I don't like it. Love watching Kirin Heinz book it Yeah, we haven't seen them. I don't like it. Love watching Kirin Heinz book it. Yes, he has to run around that corner.

I'm gonna put a hand on top of that fedora, so it doesn't fly away. I'd prefer next time a cat or a dog. Oh, like a cat's under threat. So the cat answers the phone. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Then I would really be upset.

It's great, great work. There. Um, you know, you don't need to get the cat out of the room. Yeah, please see.'s great, great work. Yeah. Um, you know, that's to get the cat out of the room. Yeah, please see. All right, hold on. Thanks, Ben. Yeah, it's what we needed in the middle of the comic episode was a good old fashioned

bit. A full of it. Um, Ben, Ben, uh, you know, immediately jumping to a cool action movie does bring up. I think we should know just this movie's lasting legacy is kind of the scene knocked up. Yeah, I was about to mention this movie's cultural legacy now. Okay, Ben just grab by the scrap. He's really committed. Yeah, the scene knocked up, which comes out two years later. Yes. In which they are at the club and they guess they've all just watched Munich. Or no, maybe they just want to talk about. He says like, you know what I saw the other day and as a fucking cool movie Munich and all of them go like

Oh, yeah, Munich. It's like J. Barre show and Jason Segel Right, and they're like that movie flips the script the Jews are the one You know, and then he has the like the line like if any of us get laid tonight's because of Eric Bonn and Munich Which is a great line. What do you think of this line? It's a good it's a good line. It's a great line. What do you think of this line? It's a good, it's a good line. It's a good line. I'm a little dismayed that I love this movie.

That's over. I'm a little dismayed that this is now, that this is its legacy and the, and the weird sex scene. And occasionally somebody who remembers that it's somehow anti-Israel. Right. And you should, you should know that Steven Spielberg sent Joe Dapat how framed still from the film

Unified because when he saw nothing. Yeah, well, it does feel like the joke of that sequence and I think why it hit so well Is that the idea of anyone watching Munich and being like? Yeah, fuck you. Yeah, right is really funny because that's not what that movie is. It's not a Jewish revenge fantasy. Well, you know exactly. I mean, it's sort of a, yeah, it's a complete it's it's it's it's not a mining of a Jewish revenge. It's underlined their manchild status, etc. But right. So few people had seen Munich. No, no, no, no, it's not like that. Now it's been cemented. I think people think it is what they think it is in that movie. Yeah. The joke at the time was like Munich's very austere. If they think this movie is badass, yeah, that's leading to them getting

laid. Then they've misread Munich. Because I would say the most quote unquote badass scene is when they so Kieran Heinz, Hens, I don't know how to say I say Hens. We've mentioned him so many times on this podcast. Mancerator. Mancerator himself. There we go.

He gets caught and assassinated by this one shot character, Marie Jose Cruz. Who is she? She's in a dime bell in the butterfly. She's like the main nurse. She's a very, very fine franchise. Oh, right. She was in the the barbarian invasion. She's Canadian.

I'm a huge fan of hers. Really? Oh, she's friends Canadian. Yeah. I'm a huge fan of hers. I think she's really good. So she kills pork here. You know, you're he gets a nice little good buy scene, actually, at the bar with Eric.

And so then they exact their revenge with those weird little like flashlight guns that like she's so into the little the And she's it's a creepy scene, but that's the most badass scene, right? Like that's in another movie That's when they're taking their like Bruegel revenge. But think about how upsetting that scene is because they walk in, she's there. Who are you? What's going on? She sees Banna.

She puts it together, right? They take out the things they start assembling them. She goes, well, at least get, let me get dressed, you know, reaches is reaching for the gun. You go, okay, I know where this is going. It's going to be a shootout thing. Then she doesn't get the gun, right? Yeah.

She does her last ditch attempt. That's like, well, uh, you know, tries to seduce them to see if she can throw them off and be a waste to let these well, you know, tries to seduce them to see if she can throw them off It'd be a waste to let these talents, you know, and then they shoot the things and it it's like some weird It's almost like the the Taddle stun gun from no country for old man like it immediately leaves this mark Red it doesn't really start bleeding and letting out for a little while She starts breathing and he starts holding, you know, like you see her with these two large red dots. She's like stumbling around and they're trying to kind

of like, just get her to sit back down. She goes to her cat. She hugs her cat. And they're just like, sit down, sit down and you just have to sit with her, you know, watching her stumble around really uncomfortably, knowing that she's about to die before it starts getting gruesome. And it's like, this isn't a movie that gets any satisfaction of, like, you know, it'd be so easy to, especially when it's like, you know, a honey pot character like that, you know? Sure. Where it's like, oh, her job is to seduce and kill.

It'd be so easy to just be like, yeah, you fucking get what you deserve. And I feel like the shittier version of Munich that the knocked up guys think they're watching, that's the kind of scene it would do. Right, because I mean, she's not a character with any dimension out of your, like, I mean,

she's just in a sat. We only know her as someone who kills one of the, like, it's not like, it's not like there should be sympathy for her, and yet. Right, to hold on her death that much is just like, death is never cool. Yeah. You know, it doesn't matter if someone's done something wrong

if they're on the opposite side. It's never a pleasant thing to watch, even, you know, regardless of the, the visorility of the blood and gourd and whatever. It's just like to watch someone in their final moments, except death. And she's like, puttering around like a baby. I mean, she's like losing her facilities and it's just like, grab in a cat. Let me sit in the chair. I like, you know, yeah. It sucks. Death blows. I want to go on the record and say that. I think death is fucking lame.

Yeah. It sucks. Death blows. I want to go on the record and say that. I think death is fucking lame. Yeah. Todd? I think if Eric Banna comes and shoots me, I'm going to hook my cat. I think that's a good way to go. When Eric Banna comes for us and he comes for us all, sooner or later, he comes for us all. He does. You got to grab your cat and give it a nice little hug.

Um, my cat. My cat. His name is pig. Is that true? Yeah. And we'll be selling pig plush in the blank check online store. Oh, I have actually a pitch for you guys. Oh, sure. Why don't we just make part like customized blankets?

Yeah, that's what we should do. We should make like stadium blankets with our faces on. Yeah, for the blankies. Yeah, that's what we should do. Blankies. This store is going to be open any day. Thank you for the blankies. Yeah, that's what we should do. Blankies. This store is gonna be open any day or working on it. Blankies. Um, other thoughts about this movie?

I mean, should we talk about the sexy? We sure. I don't know. Yeah, well, that's the thing. So they do all this stuff. They kill lots of people. Eventually, Bonnig, does he retire? Or do they retire him?

He's just, he's out. They can't go him back in. They have one, right. They have one mission that goes kind of wrong where they're trying to kill this big shot and instead they kill this like teenager and sort of a disaster. Oh, and he's out. He's in Brooklyn and what, what is it? Um, Griffin, you were on a show where you had to speed like set in the 70s.

A vinyl, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is also mostly set in the 70s. Mm-hmm. Uh, what did you think of the fashion in those days? I dig it. I do too, and I actually, I thought that during the movie, but I thought it wouldn't be cool to bring up on this podcast. Well, I brought up for you.

Everyone looks really cool in this movie. Oh, yeah. It's a really well-executed 70s costume world, because they don't, they don't feel costume. Everyone feels like it's like real outfits and they do the thing that the best period films do, which is like the clothes are mostly from like six years earlier than the movie was set because fashion like lasts, you know, people are wearing older clothes. I think everyone looks cool in this movie.

I think 70 stuff is cool. I think it's a good fucking zone to set stories in. I like all the facial hair. I love chops. Yeah, stashes. But I like like, here in Hines is sort of still, like in a 60s mode, you know, he looks like he's like from the Anderson tapes or something.

It's like, this is an older guy and he's holding on to his prime. James Bond's haircut is pretty rough. What else he talking about? Oh, you mean Craig, you mean Dan and Craig. Yeah, you know. This is, this is the year before casino rail. Yes. Oh, yeah, no, the team are also sex, yeah.

Right. So this is, he's just about to pop. Yeah, he's just about to become a huge star. But right now, he's still like steely British theater actor, Daniel Craig. And very much like a supporting player. Right, like eighth lead in road to British and Daniel Craig. Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Yeah. That's a mushroom player, right? Like eight lead in road to tradition, didn't it? Yeah. That's really good. That's really good.

Yeah. It's a mushroom cut though. All right. That's enough. There's a moment in this film when he gets back and he meets the Israeli soldiers who are like escorting him and they're like in awe of him. They're talking to him as if they're the knocked up guys. And they're like, we know who you are.

You're not allowed to say it, but you're fucking cool, right? And they put out their hand to shake his hand. And he like really hesitantly does it slowly. Yeah. And it's so clear. This way he's framing it as like, this guy isn't some Urah hero. Yeah. You know, he's not like the underdog defender. This is a guy who's got to live with this for the rest of his life. I just want to, I just remembered that here in Hens is who Daniel Craig shoots

in road to tradition. That's like sets off everything off in the movie. Oh, that's crazy. And then Superman sees it. Little Superman. Tyler Hock. Hock, Hock, Hock, Hock. He's a little Superman.

Yeah. And also Matthew Olmariq is the guy who James Bond punches in Quantum of Solace. True. That is true. And Michael Lonstead played the city of Chicago in the right, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And Matthew Kessibot was the rain.

Yeah, what a great movie. It's a yeah, yes, Todd weigh in. I like road to British. I would not say anything. I would not say great, but I like it. I like it a lot. My favorite Mendis. Probably mine too. What's it? Well, I like skyfall. like it. I like it. My favorite Mendis. Probably mine too.

What's it? Well, I like Skyfall. Skyfall, yeah. I like Skyfall. Say for that one scene. Which one scene? When he just goes into a- No, yeah.

When he just- It's like a beautiful, er- Let me get in the shower with you. Yeah. We've just talked about how you were like a sexy- Weird scene. That is a- Jump in your shower.

It's an objectively odd scene. I feel like socks. Daniel Craig has talked about that scene, like, a jump in your sound. That's like, Daniel Craig is talked about that scene like ever since he made it. It's like an example of like, why do I play this guy? This guy's gross. Yeah. Um, but, but I mean, the sex scene this movie is interesting, not just because it's, it's so over the top because he's done so few sex scenes

in his career, but it's also like a day new month of the film. Yeah. So yeah, right. We're on the sex scene. Yeah. And well, no, no, it's, and also because it's cross cutting with the massacre of, of these poor Israeli athletes. It's an odd choice. It is a, it's almost a bold choice, I would say, right? Yeah, then a misfire. There were, it's intentional. There were many defenses of this movie at the time, but of course, you know, right? Yeah, they're really liked this time around. I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, I liked it more than I thought. I feel like you could cut one shot out and then you'd be fine.

And the shot is him orgasming and like just like beads of sweat flying into the air. And now in my head, that was like literally like so much water suddenly with, and it's not. It gets into flash dance. Not that. But still, I do feel like maybe, I don't know, just do some pickups, right? like so much water suddenly with and it's not gets into flash dance. Not bad. But still I do feel like maybe I don't know just do some pickups right. In my head it was five minutes long. I think that's going to be all the time.

Yeah. It is not that bad. You know, I'll admit that I get that it was jarring for people and I do think the cross I mean the idea of course is that he's 100% traumatized. Yeah. Right. By the violence and like the violence is all sort of becoming, it's all blended together for him as well. And the fact that the movie is kind of book ended by these sex sequences.

The one in the beginning of the film is not very erotic, is very just kind of like this. It's just a married couple having sex. It's romantic. No, she's panceless. He's nothing closed. Right. Right. And there's like half blanket over them. Yeah, nothing closed.

Yeah. But it's very just like, you know, he doesn't do any flashy camera work or anything. It's just watching two people make love who are in love with each other, right? This is moving. And then the end of the movie, it's like he's having this very visceral,

like, twer-thrusting sex, you know, shot in this very, very cinematic way, cross-cut with, like the horrors that he's never gonna be able to live down. Like, this is defining him for the rest of his life now. Well, it's because, you know, you, you just start, he thinks you can be safe and you can have a home and he knows you can never be safe.

You can never have a home. Right. Right. Right. He's sort of in that, yeah, he'll always be looking over his shoulder. And also, I think he's got this extra charge now that's not going away. But I also think there's an intention in Spielberg showing the murder of these really uh, hostages, which was so random, like you just see, it's like when Black September

terrorists realize that it's all going down, they just sort of fire wildly at the guys. And it's not that different from what you've seen, Bonan is crew do. No, no, no, no, which is kind of just fire wildly at people when they think they got, you know, like, yeah, um, and then, and then there's the factual final scene is his conversation with Ephraim on the Docks of Brooklyn. He's really good in this. Which has that very intentional shot

of the World Trade Center. The final shot has the World Trade Center. In the skyline, yeah. I do love that's something I love about this way. Where Ephraim is like, come back to Israel. We'll kill more people. What are you talking about? And I'm like, why did we do this? Did it work your frame is like, come back to Israel. We'll kill more people. What are you talking about? And Eric Bound is like, why did we do this?

Did it work and he's like, yeah! I'm not that bad. Always more people to kill though. Flip a coin. But I mean, I mean, I'm making it sound silly. It's a scene where both characters have staked out there sort of philosophical territory on it. And the movie ends in a note where it's like,

these two guys are gonna walk in two different directions and the shit's to keep happening. Like there's no, you know, was it a success? Like in the immediate, they accomplished the thing they were trying to do. But like it, you know, nothing's resolved really in the grand scheme of things. I do, I love how, and this is like because it's like a $60 million Spielberg movie and he could do whatever he wants. In terms of like the period setting, 70, wow.

In terms of the period setting and how many different locations this film has, the world of this movie is so huge because he does a lot of wide shots. He does a lot of long tracking shots where you're going across city blocks and the degree to which they had to set dress like every car, every outfit, all the signage and everything.

He makes the world feel very just sort of lived in and off hand. That's the thing in this way that kind of reminds me of the conversation is a lot of times he uses more sort of like documentary film techniques. He does a lot of zooms in this, which Spielberg doesn't usually do. He usually moves the camera, not shifts the lens, you know? And he does a lot of like quick zooms in this, which Spielberg doesn't usually do. He usually moves the camera, not shifts the lens, you know? And he does a lot of like quick zooms into people

from a distance, this sort of paranoid kind of bird's eye view or like a bird's nest view of characters talking. It's like an uneasy movie. I think it's great. I think it's really good. I don't think it's great, but I really, really like it. Oh, you don't think it's great. I think it's great. This would be my top it's great, but I really, really like it. Oh, you don't think it's great. I think it's great.

This would be my top 10 of the year for sure. It's top five Spielberg for me. I do think there's something though to what you were saying about, like the Spider-Man 3 comparison where when audiences have a very specific idea of what they want out of a movie. And it doesn't work for them. They always latch on to like the thumb sticking out the furthest, you know? Sure. Where it's like, I think the weird scene in Spider-Man 3, the dance shit, all those weird doesn't work for them. They always latch on to the thumb sticking out the furthest. You know?

Sure. I think the weird scene in Spider-Man 3, the dance shit, all those weird scenes aren't the promised Spider-Man 3. It's the rest of it. That stuff's kind of interesting. I mean, there's taking bold swings there. Interesting.

It's too strong. You guys like that movie more than I do. I think the basic functional Spider-Man stuff in Spider-Man 3 is totally dysfunctional. It's where that movie falls apart. It's kind of all over the place. And I think similarly, most of Munich is so kind of locked down and focused that people who I think were looking for the film to give them any sort of emotional catharsis, or

this sort of rush of an action thriller, or the kind of neat answers that they wanted out of a movie on a hot button issue were able able to especially because it's the end go, well, that scene was weird. That's the fucking problem. And pin way too much on the sex scene because it's, it's the loudest thing in the movie. I think of his 2000s work though, this and a, I sort of groaned the most in reputation. I agree.

Over time. Yeah. Uh, I think that a big part of why this movie kind of rubbed people the wrong way was when it came out. Like, 2005, certainly we were starting to explore the moral questions of what the United States did after September 11th, but we weren't like all the way there yet. And a lot of the reviews, I went back and looked at them a lot of the commentary was saying, is this movie saying taking action against terrorists makes you a terrorist? Because that's wrong. Yeah, they're, yeah, right.

That's not what this movie is saying at all, but like that's an easy superficial reading. It's it's kind of similar to what happened to zero dark 30 in a lot of ways. Yeah, yes, yes, very very similar. Um, another good movie and some of the. It's also very long. Yes, uh, some of the same sort of like themes that come up in minority report. Yeah. It's like, look, it's like two, two wrong answers really.

Yeah. You have to choose which wrong you wanna go with. You know, either you invade people's privacy in order to stop crime or you give people freedom and you let more crime happen. This movie is ranked 29th in the box office mojo category of travelogue Middle East.

You know what number one is? Transformers, revenge of the fallen. Yeah. That's really a great Middle Eastern travelogue That's right. It's like another sweep of that camera. You know what number two is the passion of the Christ What the fuck Oh, I knocked over a little bit of tea. Thank you. Great job. Um, I love obscure Every movie is American sniper. Aladdin. Oh, geez.

Why would you call this travel? Anyway, that is my way of setting up the box office. Yes. Okay. Great. So this opens in Christmas. It was a Christmas weekend, 23rd of December, 2005. It opened at number 10 at the box office with $6 million.

So it's not in our top five. It opened 530 screens. So like office with $6 million. So it's not in our tough but it opened 530 screens. So like sort of semi limited. I think it expanded out. But you know, it is with 47 domestic. It's in really 130 worldwide. Top any more. I feel like it's first wide weekend. It did the same amount, right? Let's see. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, I never it's biggest weekend is seven million dollars. Yeah. Okay. So this is Christmas 2005 Christmas 2005 number one. It's in its second week of release. Okay Todd loved this movie at the time. I remember I I rewatched it last year and you know And it's still really still really like it. I would love to say I love it anymore

I think I might side with you on this I haven't't rewashed in a while, but I certainly, so everyone knows that the movie is saying the drum highlight for King Kong, right? It's King Kong, which I don't like. Okay, I was fully in the masterpiece boat at the time of its release. It's it's over stuffed, but the stuff that works is so good. I think it's incredible.

I also would have given Naomi Watts best actresses. She's I think she's terrific. I think that's an incredible one day. We'll do our Peter Jackson. Yeah, we'll do. And then I'll rewatch King Kong. I think she's terrific in the film. I think that's an incredible point. One day we'll do our Peter Jackson, and he's here. We'll do it. And then I'll rewatch King Kong. I can't wait. But that holiday season was an arms race.

King Kong was expected to be the movie of the year. It made plenty of money. But 218. But another film sort of laughed it. I mean, it came on strong. And I think the weekend after this weekend, return to number one, after seating to King Kong for a couple of weeks. And that is-

You are correct. The Chronicles of Narnia, the Lion of the Witch and the Wardrobe. That's right. Which ended up being the bigger sort of fantasy family event film. Everyone, director of Shrek made a Narnia movie with Tilda Swinton that was a huge hit. Do you know when the director of Shrek had the most consistent box office track record of anyone in history?

Yeah, because Shrek Shrek 2, Narnia, is one and two. Right, and then Mr. Pip. Yep. Okay, so I heard of this movie. So that's one and two. And he also did it. Mr. Pip made $1,700 at the box office. He also did it, so I had to.

He also did a start to soleil documentary, right? He did, he did. Okay, so that's King Kong and Chronicles and Arnia one and two, right? That's one and two, correct. Okay. Number three. Number three is a comedy that actually opened pretty good. It opened $29 million.

This is its first weekend, considering that no one has ever seen it. I know what this is. And it doesn't exist. If I'm with Dick and Jane. That's correct. You guys both are a good time. My wife worked in a movie theater at this time. So I remember every,

because I was there visiting her all the time and seeing free movies. So I remember like everything. Yeah, that's one of the quietest 100 million grocers ever. Yeah, the movie made $110 million though. 202 worldwide. It was co-written by Joe Dappatow and Nick Stoller. Yeah, and Dean Parson directed it. Yeah, so did Jim $110 million though, a 202 worldwide, it was co-written by Joe Dapetau

and Nick Stoller. Yeah, and Dean Pursa directed it. Yeah, sorry, Jim Cahler. Jim Cahler, you know, it was ostensibly. Also, it was 2005 and it's kind of a movie about like, financial books. Yeah, White Collar Crime, it was like weirdly prescient. Too bad no one's ever seen it.

And I haven't seen it and it doesn't exist. I saw it, I saw it in theaters. It doesn't really exist. Yeah. Yeah. Because isn't the button joke on that one? The final joke is that he's finally, he got a new job and he'll be fine in the jobs at Enron. Yes. It turns out to be a period piece. That's the big twist. Okay. Go. Fuck.

Just, just, just remember me. Yeah. It's just like, remember. It's very similar. It turns out that an early Aughts crisis is the twist ending of the movie. Now, number four is a sequel. Much like Ghost of the Abyss. Much like Ghost of the Abyss.

Number, I had to make that joke, I'm sorry. And number four is a sequel to a family film. Cheaper by the dozen, too. There you go. Open to $20 million. For cheaper by the dozen, too. Is Tom Welling in that one as well? Yeah, Hillary Duff.

I believe so, yeah. Piper Peribault, Piper. They're all back. They're all back. The whole family's back. Plus a new family. Eugene Levy and Carmen Electra, that couple. That couple.

There's some episode back in the archives where we ran on like a 20 minute Eugene Levy rant. I can't remember which. What Jim's dad, we talked about Jim's dad's perspective. He talked about Eugene Levy's mid 2000s dominance of the sex comedy genre. Chewp by those and two features Taylor Lawton are playing the child of Carmen Electra

and Eugene Levy, the biological child of Carmen Electra and Eugene Levy. Oh, God. So live without America. Yeah. And the number five is a film that just added it, it was limited last week. It just added 1500 screens and it made $10 million.

Was it an Oscar player? It's an Oscar player that won some Oscars. Okay. Nope, but did not, was not good. And did not get good reviews. Seriana? No. Right. That fits the description pretty well.

Seriana was that your people were like, Oh, no, this will be a player. Seriana, watch out for. I was also an e-burt favorite. Seriana. That is a movie that I saw. I don't remember it at all, but I saw that Thanksgiving night, 2005, with my wife, we drove to LA to see Syrian a KFC and you lived in Nevada at the time.

You drove through the night to see Syrian and what did you think of Syrian? I don't remember God damn thing about it. I don't even know. The only thing I remember is the gif of George Clooney walking away from the car that blows up. Right. Sometimes see right. There's he dies, right? There's this scene where he's like, in a Humvee and he's like, no, no, no, don't do it.

Then they all blow up. And I don't remember why. They wanted Oscar for it. He wanted the Academy Award. I mean, it was his only Oscar. It was his year, because that was like good night and good luck. And then he got like nominated in like five different categories. But I mean, before the movie came out, it was like,

oh, he grew up here and gained weight. Triptych with him, Math Damon and Jeffrey Wright. Yeah. I could point a gun at Stephen Gagan, who I believe wrote and directed that film. He couldn't tell me what the Jeffrey Wright arc was about. I mean, it's so weird. I have a theory that 75% of the people

who voted for George Clooney didn't see Syria. They were just like, yeah, sure. It's Clooney's bad or something great. Yeah, it's Clooney's year. Anyway, no, sure. It was a good thing. It's bad or something great. It's cline easier. Anyway, no, it's not seriana. Okay, it's not broke back. It won a couple Oscars. I think it won three.

Last king of Scotland. No, that was the year later. Okay, with that year, walk the line. Give me another hand. No, it's bad. It's a bad movie. It's a bad movie and I want a couple Oscar. Are you in three? Do you know the movie?

I'm not, I'm not placing it. Look, it's crazy that this movie exists. It was criticized at the time for... Oh, I know what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about. No more suffigation. Yeah. Correct.

And more suffigations. A rock-martial joint. So it's thought to be an Oscar front runner. And I think it was the Hollywood was like, what should we give to Rob Marshall? You know, he made Chicago. We should give him something kind of musically, right? I don't know. You know, like really complex.

No more select period drama set in. Is it that it's set in China and feature Japanese actors the other way? Like it was it had this problem where it casted Japan and featured Chinese. It has a Korean. It was an illusion actor. these actors are the other way. Like it was, it had this problem where it casted Japan and featured Chinese. Right. It casted Korean. It was an English-Nactor. It was, it was a catch-all Asian actor pool for a very Japanese movie.

Yeah, because they were like, let's just, what, I mean, Watanabe, get him on the phone. Zhang Ji, get him on, get him in. On Lee, right, Cong Lee's in it. I think Michelle Yo's in it. Am I wrong about that? I feel like she is a supporting part. I haven't seen it since a came out.

Oh, yes, you're correct. Yeah. But I believe it one, yeah, one three Oscars. Cinematography Artisan. Well, my girl Kully Nowwood, one for Costume. Yeah. That also is a movie that Spielberg was gonna make for years. He bought the rights.

He had it set up a dream work. He was always gonna make it. That was a hot book club. Yeah. And that was another thing when people were doing the Oscar prognostating months out, I'm American, being like, oh, it's gonna be memoirs versus Munich.

It's gonna be, oh, the irony, if Steve got beaten by the movie, that he almost directed and finally handed off to Rob Marshall, our next great American director, our newly-annoyed hit. So some other movies, we had a good job, guys. The Family Stone is in there, which is a film that people now claim is good, which I hate because it's bad.

It's got some moments. No, moments that I like Family Stone. Hey, Todd. Terrible mood. It definitely has some moments. Remember that scene where, I don't even wanna talk about it. The ringer? Rachel McCam's the ringer.

Imagine that movie coming out today. Yeah ringer? Rachel McAmsel. The ringer. Imagine that movie coming out today. Yeah, people would. Mm-hmm. Not like it. I mean, people didn't like it then, but I imagine that now. Yeah. And I think I've never seen it, but I think it's sort of

criticized as Johnny Knoxville for pretending to be like mentally disabled or whatever the hell it is. Special Olympics. But rumor has it. Everybody fucks Costner. Yeah. Yeah. That was the workingenic Special Olympics. But a rumor has it, everybody fucks Costner. Yeah. I got one. That was the working title for that movie.

I think that's an eighth in raping show that I dug up for my recesses of my brain. Goblet of Fire is in there. The worst Harry Potter movie. I would agree. At least, I mean, if you're giving Chris Columbus's movie kind of like, you're just sort of ignoring them, I guess. Oh, I keeping them in mind, still think that's the worst one.

Then Munich, Wolf Creek. Remember Wolf Creek? Geez. Seriana, the producers. Lots and lots of movies in 05 that we're going to be Oscar players didn't. That's the thing. Yeah, that movies like the producer. That's fascinating because you could have gone like,

if you asked, I'm sure if you trekked through those boards, right? And found like the August predictions that would have been like best picture. Producers, memoirs of Agacia, Serianaiana, munix gonna win in a sweep. Yeah. Mrs. Henderson presents. Oh, there you go. Yeah, remember when she presented a new review? Trans-America's probably in there. Trans-Majee's Trans-Majee. Another movie that released that today. Oh, sure, let's see how that goes. The iMac's reissue of the polar express. Yeah, that was a period of time where polar express would make another 10 to $15 million every year.

They'd just bring it back. Yes, it's docked into the station. So, but that's it. That's it. Well, much like the film Munich we're left with a lot of questions and in general, unease. Thank you so much for being here, Todd.

I was glad to be here. People can follow you on Twitter. Yeah, Twitter is a TVOTI. You can find my work at Vox.com or just follow me on Twitter. I like to do it. To vote. To vote. To vote.

Do you ever regret being to vote? Because I feel like to vote you now. You've just made that your brand. I don't because Todd Vanderwerf is such a long, stupid name. People wouldn't know how to spell it. TVOTI, that's easy. It's easy to remember. It's pretty good.

TVOT. There's a guy who's TVOT who gets a lot of tweets for me. And he just tirelessly is like, I think you mean TVOTI. He's from England or something. Why do they, why not just do something else? There's this, you know, I'm David L. Sims, I'm Twitter, but plug for me. You know, there's a David Sims. And like in mic, you know, I'm David L. Sims on Twitter, but plug for me. You know, there's a David Sims. And like in his, he's, he tweets never.

Yeah. And in his profile, it says, I'm not the TV reviewer or the fashion photographer, because I'm so fashion photography by my name. This poor guy's probably just getting tagged like once every few hours, like with some, you know, great job shooting, Miley Cyrus, you know, this week's interview magazine. There's a dude who's also named Griffin Newman, who lives in New York and works for like Swiss banking. We're sure like credit sweeps.

They loved him in the tick. Everyone's gonna hold semi something. He'll be like, hey, I think this offer to start on a web videos for you. All right, anyway, good times. Thank you Todd. God, how long have we known each other Todd? 15 years?

Yeah, probably It's been since like 2000 to 2003 Chicago Oscar, right? Yeah, I think so. I think so and you were like you were like a tiny baby I was I was a tiny upstart baby who I was still married Well, congratulations. Thank you and living you're still married today. Yeah Well, congratulations. Thank you. And Livia, you're so married today. Yeah.

And congratulations to all of you. I've grown into a big baby. Yeah, and I'm a little too big of you. Yeah, that's going to be a pretty big one. A very tall man. That's a throwback. Very tall man. Anyway, thank you for listening.

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Spielberg does another one of his classics, three and two, and then takes a couple years off and next week we'll be discussing his, right? It is his immediate follow up to this is a film called Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, which I think is the first film and then aborted Indiana Jones franchise. We're not doing that. I love that movie.

You love that movie? No. I mean, I like parts of it. I think there's some good parts. I think that's a movie that also falls prey to the Spider-Man 3 problem. People focus on the wrong things. They do.

But we'll talk about that next week. That's right. But in the meantime, I think it's and as always, a big congratulations to students for a really successful night. And as always, a big congratulations to students for our firm business. you