Blank Check with Griffin & David - No Country for Old Men with Leslye Headland

Episode Date: September 28, 2025

The Two Friendos, plus “Masterpiece” Leslye Headland and “I would have had no problems handling that bag of money” Ben Hosley take on one of the most acclaimed films of the 21st century in this week’s episode. It’s No Country For Old Men week on Blank Check! We’re chatting about Anton Chigurh’s strange physicality, Tommy Lee Jones’ tired resignation, and Josh Brolin’s career breakthrough in this episode, all while lavishing praise on the Coens’ practically perfect film. Now tell us - what’s the most that you’ve ever lost on a coin toss? Check out the SNL Jumanji Sketch Read Cormac McCarthy's Books Check out the Brooklyn Kolache Company Check out Every Frame a Painting Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Blank Jack with Griffin and David Blank Jack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check What's the most you've ever lost in the podcast? I don't know, four hours or so I'm teeing you up on that one. Was that Count Dracula?

What is the most you've ever lost in a podcast? Blah, blah, blah. Call it. Call it. Yeah, how do you do him? Remember that was the trailer? Just so much of him, Framendo. We are the two Ferendos.

The two Ferendos. All right, warm me up. Warm me up. There we go. Griffs moving the skill around. Yes. That scene is David's slapping himself in the first. face. I'm every scene of, not just that scene, every scene of Anton Chigur talking to a random

Texan who basically starts the conversation with nice weather we're having and ends with, am I looking into the face of Satan? I agree with you. It's so good. Every one of those scenes is crack. Yes. But the convenience store is mega crack. Of course. That's the, that's the peak. I could lock myself in a room and watch that scene on an endless loop every day for the rest of my life. I would be thrilled. Oh, really? I find that scene to be the most activated thing in the world. Well, Y, A, why? I mean, this is what we're here to dissect, perhaps.

It feels like the perfect distillation of what this movie is doing. So much of it is his performance, the guy whose name I want to call out right off the bat. Oh, Gene. Yes. My wife did a play with him. Yeah. He's kind of what... Gene Jones is the actor's name.

and his character name is Gas station proprietor. Hell yes. And it's his first film credit. That's what, right. We've done a couple TV shows. Yes, really? Yes. It's his first film credit. A lot of theater. And then, yes, he has kept working. He was the lead of

the sacraments, right? Yes. Which I think he actually got like a, like a, you know, a golden chainsaw award. I was going to say. He probably got that chainsaw. Yeah. I never saw that one. That's the Ty West movie with Joe Swanberg. Yes. And it's a... Wow, Joe Swambert. Wait, what did you say?

I said sounds normal. Yeah, the Anton Shigur, the mum of course. This movie, I feel like the magic of the Sugar performance, right? He's played by Javier Bardem in this film. Are you sure about that? That doesn't sound right.

Absolutely. The Spanish actor... I feel like I would have known about it. Javier Bardem and he won an Academy Award for the... He did win an Academy Award for this. Yes, he did. Yes. The magic of that characterization, and as you said, every one of those scenes,

where he's face to face with someone who's just greeting him with a gentle charm. Like, a human interaction. Every single time, like, how's it going? Like, what's the weather like? Pleasantry. Where are you going to night? You know, like, how's the day been so far, essentially? I got to say, though, I kind of relate to not wanting to have small talk.

It's like a real, you think that's the driving force of this film? You think the battery of this film is just this guy being like, I'm not that. I haven't been to the south that much but I do think if you hate small talk you probably shouldn't go there because I feel like that is part of the social contract. Stay in the big mean cities Oh yeah? Right, right. I feel like there's more chit-chat. Right you? Don't you think so?

I don't know. I've never been to Texas because of the thin blue line. I'm just not going. But you're worried that you'll get thin blue lines? You'll like go to a convenience store and then like your fucking do-emus-a-law Morris makes a movie about you. That movie and I was like, I'm never going to go. It's like the S&L Jumontry sketch. Right. It's just, I'm not saying it's like overbearing. I think it's just like there's a little bit more. Yeah. Hi y'all. Yeah.

It's also like, how is your day? How y'all? Yeah. It's also the thing that Tommy Lee Jones says. That's not a read by the way. That's not a read. There's the scene with Tommy Lee Jones where he's talking to the older cop and they're comparing notes and he's like these kids with the bones and their noses and all this sort of stuff. Green hair. Right. And Tommy Lee Jones is just like the second people stop saying like ma'am and sir. Right. It was all slipping away. Right. And most of the people that. sugar is dealing with are older. Yeah. Right. And this feeling of like there is a sense of like polite civility. Yes. And a sort of like attempt to engage with all people with a good face that is perhaps like

eroding in culture. I think the gene scene is the longest one. It is the most sustained. It is such a perfect like kind of like rubber band pulled to its absolute breaking point. Absolutely. And then the bizarreness of rather than letting it snap slowly putting it back into position, You know, the lack of release of tension in that scene in either direction is so bizarre, but I also think he plays the fear of it so well.

Well, Javier did an interview where he said, you know, that scene is really great because of Gene. Yeah. You know, he said, I'm just saying it. And he's playing the fear and the nervousness and the terror. He's an incredible listener. He's not overplaying it. Yeah. He still wants to be, I don't want to say gentlemanly.

Yeah. But he's trying to treat this man with kindness with every answer as his fear is increasing. Yes, yeah. But he won't give that up. He's not going to be like, what's your fucking drop- Get the fuck out of here. It is also very- He is trying to engage with him.

It's very funny that he keeps being like, you married into this? And he's like kind of blank, like not getting it. He chokes on the sunflower seeds at the notion that the inherent. did a thing from his wife's dad, and Gene doesn't respond with any defensiveness. He doesn't do, like, a well, well, well. No, he's like, yeah, if you want to put it that way. Right. He goes, and there is no way to put it.

And even just down to, I think it's the final shot of the scene of Sugar putting the sunflower seed bag. I love that shot. Crumpled up, and then it slowly uncrumbles. Yeah, it's the, because it's the tension and then the release. Right. You know, of just like, we are so tense. And actually, oddly, the release of that is, like, why you remember it.

I think so. Because you're hoping for that. Like, you're hoping that that's going to. But also, much like the bag, you release it and then still just like a crumpled mess, right? You don't go like, oh, my God, you never see Gene again. Nope. Bye, Gene. You're relieved that Gene didn't die, but you're also like nothing has been solved here.

No, not at all. And it's, in fact, almost scarier where you're like, this is so completely random and meaningless for him. Yeah. Right? That he throws the coin toss into it and it doesn't feel like an element of like perverse fun. It's not like he's a fucking James Bond villain with a gimmick of the coin. He's not Two-Face, right?

No, no. Two-Face. No, no. He's not getting any joy from the idea of staking it all on that. It just feels like this guy. Right. He's just, he's pure evil. Yeah.

Or no. This is what we need to break down. So with Toothase to Two-Face to Two-Eval. Toothface. Toothface is a new villain I'm pitching, which is a guy who's face is a tooth. Keep going. Yeah.

With two face, not to get too deep into fucking comic book talk, right, but it's like his, his, he's so traumatized by what happened. He cannot handle making any decision without flipping a goddamn coin.

He needs fate to decide which side of his trauma response takes over. But I think Anton Shigur is doing a little bit of that where he's like, it's not all me. no, this is, this is faded or not faded. And like, I am merely an instrument of something I don't understand. And that's why it's so important that Kelly McDonald's says to him like, you're saying it's the coin. You're saying it's the coin, but it is definitely not the coin. It is you, my friend. It's interesting that you say instrument. Because so in the book, this is essentially word for word. It's essentially word for word this scene, including putting down the rapper. It is funny that I want a screenplay Oscar for this because they have been so open about the fact where it's just a cut and paste. Right. I think there's a line where they were like, here was our writing process. They said one holds the book flat. Yeah. And the other one types. Right. And then they talk about how much they consolidated and things. They did. As a big fan of this book, they did, they did a great job adapting. It is not transcripts. They definitely, no, they definitely did the dialogue. The dialogue is the same. You know, I wouldn't say cut and pest because there are many things. One of the things they didn't include and you don't need to because of the visuals is anything can be an instrument. Trigger said small things, things you wouldn't even know.

as they pass from hand to hand, people don't pay attention, and then one day there's an accounting. And after that, nothing is the same. Well, you say, it's just a coin. For instance, nothing special there. What could that be an instrument of? You see the problem to separate the act from the thing, as if the parts of some moment in history might be interchangeable with the parts of some other moment. How could that be? Well, it's just a coin. Yes, that's true. Is it? So that's, I mean, beautiful writing, but also, what a great underlining of the whole thing. And also that the value of this movie is, as you just said, they don't need that because they're able to convey that through repeated visual patterns. Yes, to the visuals.

Yes. And the performance. Yes. This movie came out in the very brief tenure in which I was attending film school before I dropped out and ruined my entire life. Or fixed it. Uncleared. Doing very now. Jury is still out.

You're doing very well. Sure, he's still out. What fucking film school? Nobody ever learns anything about it. Sure. But this is the period of time where I'm just like, all I need to do all day is watch movies and break them down because I'm trying to like figure out how to engineer these things myself. That's work. Right?

And this movie comes out that fall. Basically in the one semester and change that I'm in film school. And I'm in Valencia, California. If there's an artsy movie, I want to see a more limited release, I need a friend with a car to drive me to the fucking landmark or the arc. or the arc light or something. Yes, yeah. But no country is mainstream enough that it goes to the Valencia Town Center 16.

Oh, wow. And plays there for months. And I saw this movie so many fucking times. In the theater? Yes. And I just saw it a lot too. I'd just be like, this is the blueprint. This is the best constructed movie I have ever seen.

I saw it so many times I hadn't watched it in quite a while because I was so obsessed with it in its year. Yeah. where I was just, and I was just like, well, this is just the pinnacle of everything. Yeah. And I watch it now, and I'm like, I don't know where I'm going to rank it in their filmography. There's definitely a ton I put above this.

I don't think it's their best movie, but it might be one of the best made films ever. It is just so perfectly made. Yeah, I saw it three times in the theater. It's a lot. Yeah. I saw it once or twice. And I've seen it several times since then. It's a movie I admire.

It's a book I love. Uh-huh. And it's an author I love. I do love Cornyck McCarthy. Perhaps it's a little fucking, you know, boring of me. Why would it be boring? I don't know. Why do you say that, though?

I feel like so many 20-something boys have a Cormick-McCarthy phase, right? Maybe not. Maybe I'm being too rude. You're kind of built like the description from Blood Meridian. I was going to say, I do think there's like blood meridian is like a gateway drug to something. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what.

love him and I love how he clearly, how he behaved his whole life, totally normal. I love that. No, but I do. Well, adjusted. He's one of those guys who, his books, I mean, the Border Trilogy, all the pretty horses and the crossing,

and those books are my favorite. And they will just, once every two or three pages, just have a moment, have some line where you're just like, that's the best thing I ever read. Yes. Like, that's the most incredible, beautiful evocation of, like, light going through a fucking, window that I've ever seen

and you put the book down and you just soak it in and that's why I do feel like he's hard to put on film and they did such an incredible job putting him on film. Yeah. And so that's what I love about this movie the most. And we haven't even introduced this podcast yet. No, and I'm going to do a second, but this movie watching it, I feel the way you just

described reading Cormac McCarthy books where like every three minutes there's something that happens where I'm like, that's just that's the greatest visual storytelling I've ever seen. Yes. That's the greatest evocation of a fueling A moment, a communication of an idea. I agree.

Whether it's thematic or plot. This podcast is called blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. We're the two Frendos, and it's a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce Friendo.

I'm just going to keep saying Friendo. This is a mini series on the films of Joel and Ethan Coo. today we were talking about the titular film in our series Pod country for old casts Oh the titular, yes, yeah It is it is for old men is the film The pinnacle of their career within the industry Certainly like within the arc of their career

Agreed. It's interesting it is both a pinnacle and a comeback Yes, it is a comeback That's right because Lady Killers is right before that And Intelberg Quilty is right before that It's sort of them right It's them as look when you two released all that you can't leave behind. We talk about this all the time. How are you doing?

You're interested in me talking about this right now? Sorry, anytime I bring up you two. Ben is holding a cattle gun to his head. They had just, they had made Zeropa, and they had made pop, and they were kind of, you know, they were a little down. And they were like, we're auditioning. We're re-auditioning for the role of, like, best rock band. Sure, yeah.

And this is the Coens being like, we're re-auditioning for, like, the best directors working. Yeah. The other thing I was thinking about. How did it work out for you, too? I don't know. millions of records sold, biggest tours ever, won fucking Grammys and shit. But they never got Ben's respect.

The ultimate price. I was thinking, within the same year, this is very similar to the moment of Spielberg going from 1941 to Raiders of the Lost Ark. That's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. Which in that episode I said was kind of one of the greatest comeback moments movies in Hollywood history.

Not moments because his, his cold streak was not sustained. No, no, no, no. But it was a real, like, we're ready to knock this guy down to size. Yes. And he just kind of, like, pulled himself up and was like, I got to make something just, like, kind of so lean and focused and undeniable. Right.

And this feels similar to that where I'm like, I don't think Raiders is Spielberg's best movie. B movie, it may be his best made film. Yeah. Like, he's just like, I just got to make myself undeniable here. Sure. Yeah. I mean, of course, the cones are just sort of like, no, we like the book. Right.

I mean, I'll look at what they said. talk about that strategy. Yeah, they're not like, we need to fucking punch Hollywood in the face and knock everyone's teeth out. They talk about a deeply normal man, Scott, rude in begging them to do it. And I'm being like, I don't know.

Who's going to adapt Cormac McCarthy? Right. But this also comes in a three-year gap after lady killers. There was this feeling of like, are they just hooked? Yeah. Where did they go?

And we were saying, right before we recorded the great Leslie Headland. We're turning to the show. Hey, Leslie. A guy. Good to be back. Leslie Nation rise up.

Cult of Love, recently on Broadway. Broadway, girl. Soon to be a film, yes. In front of cameras, a movie picture. Yes. Adaptation. We'll see what happens. It's certainly not going to be this.

But we were saying, like, you said, how has the series been going? And I said, great, every one of these movies is a delight to rewatch. Every night when I'm like, oh, fuck. That was what I was wondering. I got to watch a Cohen movie tonight. I'm just always thrilled. Yeah, you're thrilled. Always thrilled.

Yeah. For different reasons, because it might be just a disaster. And then it might be, yeah, one of the greatest film adaptations ever. Yes. But also as we've been tracking the critical response to these movies, it was like there was such a skepticism about them. Then it's sort of squashed by Fargo. And then right after Fargo, everyone's like, fuck, no, we were right. Yeah.

And then there's a feeling of getting twice as angry as them. And then from this movie on, everyone was like, I guess they're undeniable. It did feel like they so completely won the argument. I think it was so interesting, too, that like one-two punch of Fargo, you know, exactly what you said. Labowski, which at the time, everybody. People were furious. And it's just so funny that that's the film that is culturally. Absolutely.

I mean, of course, Fargo is, but Lobowski has completely surpassed it. in that sense. It will be the movie in their obituary. Yeah. Unquestionably, right? They will never make something that has a bigger cultural impact.

That's what it is. Yeah. Is it, is it their best movie? No, like, not at all. But there's no, although you know what? I asked my assistant. I have an assistant.

I asked her, like I quoted the movie and she was like, you know, she's my assistant. So she's like, uh-huh. And I said, well, you know, have you, have you seen the Big Lebowski? And she was like, I mean, I've heard of it. Yeah.

It's not necessarily a next generation watch. But this is my point. What age is your assistant? She's late 20s. Okay. Because my sister's 27. And I'm also wondering now that she may be never seen Lobowski. But she knows it.

Like she understands that it's something in the world. Yeah, right, right. It is just kind of universal shorthand. Yeah. There is sometimes a question our listeners love to throw out. There's sometimes a buggy. There's sometimes a buggy. I'm invoking Mohal and Drive, which was the last time.

Well, this is what I was going to say, David. Who, what guest has had the best run of movies? Mine. You are a relatively recent addition to a regular guest canon, but you have exclusively covered three of the most important American films the last 25. And not only have, but three films that are sort of like seen by many as the best of Zodiac. In Conversation of Pure. I have honored.

I can't believe it happened this way. You're out of control is what I'm trying to say. Next time you're getting a piece of shit. Yeah. Please get me the go. Get a bowl of diarrhea. I was thinking like, first of all, I was thinking that and like how honored and excited and like blessed I feel.

Thank you all so much for boosting up my ego. But I also thought how similar. those three movies are in terms of especially in terms of structure like you're just again you're like wait which scene is coming next like there's this world that you live in rather than um absolute straight line absolute straight line like i was buying a book at a bookstore i was getting a cohen brother's book and they and the lady was like oh this is you know so much blah blah blah and i said oh i'm doing this podcast about no country for old men and um i previews did Zodiac and

Mulholland Drive. And she said, oh, those are really interesting movies about time. This is true. Zodiac very much so. Obviously, Mulholland Drive, right? Yeah, no, absolutely. Also, not to be reductive, but I think all three movies at their core are about touching the membrane of like absolute darkness, right? Yes. That's true. And this feeling of like, can you make it

through the other side once you know that exists? That's the other side. That's the other side of the coin in inviting me. Right. You know, is that I get to do the, I get to do the best movies, but also the flip side of the coin is you're here for the darkest shit. I also think that you and I are similar. It's interesting. Look, your friend Zach Kregor, who we had on the Fargo episode.

Yeah. The two of you got engaged in your own contoss. We did. Trying to pick between those two episodes. And you were going back and forth and we said, look, we're going to win either way, however this lands. We're happy to have either of you on either one. Yeah.

Figure it out amongst yourself. And we hooked up and, you know, connected. And he said, you know, I really love to do far. Because I kind of went like, oh, Fargo's available. Let's do it. And then he, you know, he said, hey, you know, I really want to do Fargo. I have this personal connection to it. I love the film.

And clearly, he's a filmmaker. And I said, yeah, man, I just thought you'd want to do no country. Yeah. I just wanted to give you that because it's their, you know, it's everything that you're saying. It may not be the best film. I think we can talk about why it's a superlative, very influential in their being taken seriously, best picture, etc. And he really was like, oh, do you think that?

You know, not in a derogatory way, but he certainly was like, oh, I would consider Fargo. Like, that's the one that I would lean toward. It worked out because that episode comes out close to the release of his film and that's fun. Oh, that's good. Everything worked out. But when you were texting with us about it, you were like, I mean, does it make more sense for me to do Fargo, like, female protagonist? Yes, exactly. the sort of like black humor, right, versus like, is Zach seen as a little more highbrow and

thrillery and sparse? And you were sort of like talking over the sides of it. Yeah. What I was going to say, I think you and I are similar in this respect is like this feeling of constantly thinking about the absolute worst things in the world. And like you need to combat that with some sense of humor. Yeah. That is an avoidance.

Yeah. That is like trying to push through it. which is a thing I think the Coins do really well. Yeah. I think all three of the movies you've covered are funny in bizarre ways. In certain ways, yeah. I think this movie is very funny in bizarre ways. Yeah.

I think, like, Fargo is more explicitly funny and has the sense of, like, we are going to place goodness at the center of this. We're going to remind you that it exists in a very pure way. Yeah, I agree. And I think that when I was thinking of the three of them, and then I am curious, you're guys feeling like the Fargo versus this movie. But, like, very quickly, I was thinking about the three of those movies and how, like, in a personal way, yeah, there was just this, like, delving into darkness and the, you know, at the times that those films came out. Like, I said on Zodiac that, like, you know, I watched it every day for a while because I was so depressed.

And it's comforting. And it's very comforting. And Mulholland Drive, like I said, you know, lesbian working in Hollywood with suicide ideation. That's me. I totally relate. with that. What's interesting is that I couldn't really figure out why this movie hit me so hard. So I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah. I don't know why it hit me so hard at the time and why it hit me so hard rewatching it. I think that was part of it for me in this

non-conspiratorial way because I like that the movie doesn't create some insane interconnected web of stuff, right? Like to a certain degree, the events of this movie are kind of meaningless. Yes. In a way they love. Yeah. Yes. The events of this movie revolve around things that are really not our business. Right. Right. And, like, Llewellyn, the only sort of, quote-unquote, kind of, you know, normal guy in it. Yeah.

He just shouldn't have gotten involved in this business. Now, Ben's about to say, if he stumbled across the bag of money, he would have escaped Scott Fri with no issues whatsoever. He'd own a castle. I'd be sipping on a Mai Tai somewhere. For sure. Yeah. But it's been interesting in the episodes we've done leading up to this.

and when no country gets invoked, several different guests have gone, it just always drives me crazy that he goes back and gives the water that makes zero sense. Absolutely, yeah. When I was watching it, my wife was like so stupid.

Bring it up as such an urgent, like, I still haven't gotten over this, as if it's like the kind of slam against a horror movie of why would he go in there that's so dumb, right? Yes, yeah. But I think it's like at the core of the movie is why it is so effective in maddening

is you're like, the guy is basically doing the same the cat thing. And it ruins his entire life. Right. Well, it's also like the, the, the, the, the, what he, what sugar says to Woody Harrelson. Yeah. If the rule that brought you here, it's like if, if, if the rule that brought you here, what, what, what use was the rule? Yes. Right. So the rule of, you bring water to a dying man. Yes. You know what I mean? What was the use of that? After everything that comes after. As you said, David, he never should have been there. He shouldn't have gotten into this, right? Yeah. But of course, he would have been in a better place.

if he actually just took the money and ran, and the fact that he goes back and does the moral thing to, in his mind, kind of balance it, fucks him to a far deeper degree. In a very intense way. Well, it's, you sort of, but also he should have just looked in the bag. There's a fucking tracker in the bag.

Yes. Okay, can I just shut it out, grow? He's clever about the carve out. He's clever too, though. He's, you know, he's supposedly, he has clever moments. Because I don't want to make it seem like I wouldn't, like I have humanity. I would feel for this person.

Or deeply moral, man. Yeah, I would have empathy. So what I would have done is grabbed a cactus. Because, you know, they're full of water. And I was going to say they're also famously easy to grab. Grabable. Well, yeah, you know, I would get like, I would. Ben is avoiding the spikes.

I would make it happen. Also famously easy to do. Yeah, I was going to say, like, what is happening? And then once I've now got the bag back home, here's the thing I would definitely do. You go through every bed. I would dump it out on the bed because I would. I want to roll around in that friggin' money. You're not even dumping it out to sort of take a closer look.

You're like, I need to Scrooge McDuck it right away. And in doing that, you would end up discovering the track. Exactly. Quite possible. But because your instincts are that kind of in tune. I want to throw it up in the air. I want to make it rain. And would maybe make it work.

Yeah. Yeah. I think similarly like, spoilers for no country for old men. Yeah. But like the most fascinating thing this movie does and the thing the cornbread brother said was the thing that made them ultimately decide fuck we should adapt this yeah is the feeling of this kind of wrong-footed thriller where the lead characters never meet each other yes yes yeah and it all ultimately feels a little meaningless it's a movie that seems to promise a showdown

and the showdown never really it feels like it's all building towards these three characters ending up in a good the bad the ugly style standoff yes yeah and instead and i you know as someone who just kept seeing this in the suburbs of Valencia and would just feel the audience go like, what do you mean he's dead? The moment you cut to Josh Brolin on the floor and there's this feeling of like there must be a misunderstanding, he's pulling a Hannibal Lecter, someone else is wearing his face, whatever it is. There's no way the movie has just, and it's got 30 minutes left to go. It's such a weird shot as well. It's really in a place where you can't quite see his face.

The angle is wild. You're like under his jaw, and then it's not really. until Tommy Lee Jones takes off his hat and Kelly McDonnell cries that you're like, I guess this is... Oh, okay, I guess that was him. I guess it's real. Yeah.

But the moment before it's sort of... I think that what I'm saying is like there's no veneration of him. No, of course. Yeah, there's, yeah, that's one. It's, he has to get a hero's death. And it's, you get this slow fade out. And then the next thing you see is the police arriving, right? Yeah.

And the dissolve comes after a woman sitting by the side of the pool, promising him beer, yeah. Hitting on him. Yeah. And he keeps going, like, my wife is coming. Yeah.

I'm a married man. I don't want to. Yeah. And you're like, you keep wondering, is this a morality test that he's going to slip? Yeah. And in the universe of this movie, that is what causes his death. That's a good point. Right.

Not that she's a temptress, a siren of evil or whatever, but it's a sense of that this guy. Right. But, but is it like the water where he's punished for the good thing, perhaps he turns her down. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm punished for that. In the book, obviously, that character is more major. She is. She's like a runaway. Yes. They have a whole long section.

They all get to cut. But no, his, no, it's his grandma, his, sorry, mother-in-law is the one who gets him killed, too. She gives him away. Yeah, she gives him away. He shouldn't have called his wife. Yes. Yes.

He, look, his biggest mistake is he stays in a fucking motel. Stay in a hotel with a desk, a concierge. that like assassins can't just knock on your fucking door like you just want like one layer of people to get through instead he's like what's your cheapest motel I'm like you have a bag of money yeah exactly yeah spring for a presidential suite yeah I get the idea of like I don't want anyone seeing me I don't want CCTV what you know what the AC event is clever that's the thing where I'm like you're kind of smart yes yeah you know what's

and when he's looking at the sorry when he's looking at the you know, the guy underneath the tree, you know, the way that he waits, the way that the time is expressed to us via the wristwatch. Like, you get a sense of like, oh, this guy was in Nam. Like, you get it. Like, you get that this is somebody that does have some sort of street smarts, right? Yes. But then exactly what you're saying, David, it's like, then he makes choices that you're like,

I'm so sorry, what? Because he's not that. He doesn't belong in this movie. He's not that good at this stuff. Exactly. Right. And he's dealing with an entirely different. league of person.

Yeah. But to your point, it's like, I think, especially by cutting out all that back story of that character, right? Yes, it's better. It's a good. You're reducing it to a moment of a choice. Yeah. And that choice doesn't gain him anything in the same way that doing the kind thing to

the dying man doesn't gain him anything. I want to open the dossier. Please do. In a second. But I do want to know what all you guys are saying. That's why I was on the one hand, mildly surprised that in the year of 2007, a big year for movies, Zodiac Amongst. them.

Yes. Yeah. This one best picture. One best picture over, there will be blood, which is kind of like a magnum opus from PTA, obviously. Michael Clayton, what were the other big 2007 movies? Juneau and Atonement were the five nominees? Yeah.

Atonement got best picture, but then Julian Schnabel got the Joe Wright slot in director. David is miming praise, applause, taking a bow. Oh, no, he's jerking off a giant dick. Yeah. What's the giant dick about? I don't like Julian Schnoble. I don't like Julian Schnoble. I like that movie a tremendous amount. That is an ultimate onion heartbreaking. The worst guy you know just made a good point movie for me. And I'm like, he did kind of do this well.

Although I give more credit to... Broken Clock is right. This movie is obviously incredibly compelling and well made, but it is not satisfying, as you're saying, in the sort of, you know, maybe traditional Hollywood-y Western way you might expect. And so it is sort of surprising It is one best picture You watch There Will You Blood Which has Daniel Day Lewis screaming I abandoned my boy

It's not like There Will Be Blood is like an easy movie No But you watch it and you are like This is the kind of thing you would think like Would kind of triumph It's so epic It's so the acting is so big Like in all this

And I just remember when this movie came out And I feel this way to this day I have never seen a film be as well received as this film Yes And I've since then Lots of movies have come out to praise. You know, I remember when the reviews came out for this. I was like, I think this is essentially getting a 100 from everybody.

Wait, I'm sorry. You're saying that for, forever? Like, in all perpetuity. Since then. I've never seen a film as well received as this. No one questioned it. And I don't think people really remember how well this movie went over. And I think there was a bit of this and there will be blood.

We're very much pitted against each other. There will be what's an amazing movie. But like, there were some people that were, it was a little more devices. That would be me. Yes. But Leslie weighed in. She said, what a piece of shit. I just, you know, yeah.

Poop was your review. Sound off in the comments. Yeah. No, I was a little colder on that movie at the time and I have grown to like it more. But I do agree with you that these two films are pitted against each other. There was weird synchronicity between them. They were both. They were shot in the same place.

They were shot in the same place simultaneously. Yeah. So, but in the same place they were shot. Yeah. And they were shot at the same time. Yeah. Like, they talk about that the crews were having to avoid each other, like, to, like, negotiate who got what location when. That's wild.

And they were both, like, American Arturals who had kind of disappeared. And it was like, what are these guys doing? And it was seen as this sort of, like, here's the next chapter. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But you're right that this movie is bizarre in how sort of bracing and unsparing and. And, like, deliberately unsatisfying it is.

And yet it ended up being the sort of, like, more populous pick, I think, relative to there will be blood, which was seen as almost more. Nialistic. Yeah. I don't know. There will be blood somewhat punishing. Yes. And but just when you just think about it, it's like, right, how does this movie end? Llewell and Moss gets shot by unrelated Mexican gangsters.

Right. Off screen. Then Tommy Lee Jones spends 20 minutes being like. is, like, I'm having this dream, and generally I'm kind of bummed out by the world. Yeah. The end. But there's 20 minutes in between the death and the car and just like, oh, Jesus, that hurt. And you're like, and that's it.

And you're like, does the car kill him? No, he limps away. No, he's in pain. Yeah. And you're like, okay. What were you going to say, Leslie? Well, I was just curious. I like all those endings to be clear.

I think they're great. Oh, same. Yeah. David's eating a hot dog in a croissant? I could callachi. Okay. I was curious when you finish. Eating, David.

Why do you think this was sort of universally acclaimed, especially because you're claiming that it's, you know, 100% and then since 2007? There's been nothing like it. I mean, I think partly there was this vibe of like the Coens are back. Thank God. Yeah, thank God. You know, it's basically been since Fargo. Yeah.

Every single thing they've made since Fargo, people had been hot and cold on. Like, even your Lebowski's or your O'Brothers. you know those movies had more fans but at the time both got the reaction like this this kind of goofy thing is what they want to do they'd been in such a goofy mode and then they're just like we just made the most psychotic cold-blooded like crime thriller you ever saw that's also shot through with like Tommy Lee Jones furrowed brow about what has happened to this you know world that we live in

and people were just like I've never been so electrified that's how I felt Right, right, right, right. It's like a Swiss watch construction film that is still somehow explicitly built around themes and ideas, you know? And this is right before Obama. Yeah, yes. This is right before. So we're all kind of worn out. We're kind of worn out.

What were the, what were like the four best pictures leading up to that? That's a great question. So 2006 was departed. Yikes, right. 2005 was. Crash. Crash. Jesus Christ.

2004 was a million dollar baby. Which is a great movie. Yikes. And 2003 was Return of the King. Yeah. Right. Okay.

And then what? Then Chicago. Yep. Yeah. So it all feels like very. Gladiator. Sorry, but it's all very like kind of genre-y. Yep.

You know, like it's not, the crash win is just so sort of bizarre. Everyone's, I mean, from, I think the people who want, I mean, I think Paul Hagas was like, sorry, what? Like, I mean, you know, broke back was really. you know, seen as the frontrunner until, you know, gay people happen. It is absolutely a defensive best picture win. Yeah, it's a, yeah. And then departed is kind of like this afterthought win for Scorsese.

And was seen as... Yes. Right, right, exactly. And that was even the line at the time of like, is it a little silly that we're going to give it to him for this? Yes. And yet, they were like, it's kind of a week year. This movie was a big hit.

Why not this year? Right, right, right. Versus this film being seen. as like, is this the Coen Brothers towering achievement? Is that their magnum opus? And I think it was, I think David's right, the fact that there was this feeling of comeback. The fact that the movie is sort of just like so clean and undeniable in its craft. It's also the throat slit of a movie.

It is. Like, it is not, it is like, I mean, we're like, hey, departed and, you know, of course, very violent. Yes. You know, but also very mainstream. Debring is also incredibly funny. And Walberg handles it at the end. You know what I mean? Like he handles it.

So it's not like as nihilistic as the quote ending of that movie is we still get the guy at the end shoots the other guy. I find this movie very comforting. But it is the kind of movie where I usually am on that island and other people are like, what the fuck are you talking about why do you want to live in that headspace? Yes. Yeah. And like Mulholland Drive was wildly acclaimed but was also like four. certain type of person.

Yes. Who are like big flashing warning signs above that movie of like, hey, if you don't love David Lynch, you're probably not going to like this. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. And Zodiac was like not totally recognized in this same year.

You're not going to like this. And this is him going like very procedural and it's really dark, right? But in a way without the stylization and the pulp of something like seven. Yeah. And this movie everyone was just like, yeah, kind of undeniable. And I also think it's interesting that 2007 was such a humongous fucking movie year. and one that we keep pointing back to is, like, was that the last time we were just kind of firing on all cylinders?

Wait, can I say something about There Will Be Blood that I just thought of when you were saying that? I wonder if the There Will Be Blood thing is that it's so arm's length? I think so. You know, I mean, it's incredible performances, but in a weird way, you're sort of just watching them. A character study about a man you cannot understand. Exactly. Like, no one is watching. Well, if you say he's an oil man, I would agree.

I would be interested to challenge anyone to say did you empathize or maybe not even empathize, but did you recognize or empathize the journey of that character? And I think 70 to 80 to 90 percent of the people would be like, no, he was just an asshole. And it was an interesting character study because of that. He's a flawed guy. I'll allow that. But I don't think that you're, I don't think you leave that movie being like, citizen cane, right? You don't leave that movie going, oh, that guy, you know, at least I didn't.

I remember, I remember that movie first screening and some people going, that might be the best movie ever made. Like, there were those people. And then there were also people who were just like, I don't fucking get it. And there were people you were never going to get to sit down and watch it, right? And there's something about this, even though it is purposefully withholding the kind of day new want you want out of a movie like this. Yeah. I just think that. there was something about being like a guy finds a bag of money that he shouldn't have and someone's chasing him that's exactly right and the film is so like to the bone as much as it is throat slit there's like a framework of it that is so recognizable yeah that helped people recognize what it's

doing well what's it called calachi a calachi yes it's a check uh thing i think but it's very popular in Texas in the south. Shout out my Kalachi eaters on this podcast. I'm sure there's a few. It's basically just like a savory sort of pastry thing. With a hot dog in it? Sometimes it has a hot dog. Yours did. Did not?

It sure did. Are you just eating it? Yeah. But sometimes, you know, you could put like eggs in there or alipinos or... But they do sweet ones as well. They have sweet ones as well. Very nice. Brooklyn Colacci Company, DeKalbbing, Bedford. Anyone wants to go there? I go there all the time. Yeah. I just think there's something to the sturdiness of the genre setup of this movie. I agree.

And I think that, like, in the 2007 of it all, we're kind of all over it. I mean, my favorite, my second favorite president, sorry, Donald's with us now, of course. But at the time, my favorite president, he was just winding down. I'm sorry, your first favorite president is Donald 45. Your second favorite is Donald 47. Okay, you're right. Okay, okay. My favorite president at the time was winding down a second, perfect term with no issues whatsoever. Mission accomplished.

Every mission had been accomplished. No, you're right. There's a lot of malaise. It's an interesting era because it's like it's a year before the recession where all the chickens have come home to roost. Right, right, right. You know, so it's like the country is ostensibly like in like okay shape, I guess, but like everyone's just already like, nah, man, like the milk. is spoiled. Like, we suck. This has been years of us sucking.

It's the guy in the wheelchair at the end. Like, it's like, can't stop what's coming. Right. You know, it's like, in a way it's foreshadowing what we all already know. Yeah, we're like, Jesus. We've just been like hearing about the fucking Iraq war in Katrina and like, all this shit. This wins. It is

anointed, but yet you step back and look at 2007, which is studied as a year of just like, we got everything. Right? Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. And the slate of the great movies of 2007 do not all reflect that feeling. It is not a year you look at where you're like, there's something in the air. Right. And it's being expressed in all these movies in different ways, right?

It's such a good year for movies. Yes, but I'm like, Zodiac and there will be blood and no country are on a spectrum. But then you're like, Atonement and Juno are in best picture. Michael Clayton is a little closer to that earlier batch. It's that Michael Clayton feels like the departed of that year. Yes. You know. But also is very much like

that we've got to keep our money on the corporations. They might not have our best interest. They have our best interest. They might not. I'm just raising the question. Ratatouille. Yeah, Ratatouy's about the corporations. You got to watch out for those guys.

Yeah. No, I don't know. David. What? This episode of Blank Check with Griffin, David, a podcast, about philmographies, is brought to you by booking.com. Booking.

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If you're bringing me in and there's only one other person in the room. There is one other person in the room right now. I think this is so rude. I sleep easy. I'm definitely not someone who insists on 800 thread count sheets. No.

That's an example of a fussy person. People have different demands. And you know what? If you're traveling, that's your time to start making demands. Maybe you've got a partner whose sleep light rise early

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doing some remote pod record. Sure. Maybe you're in Europe and you want to make sure... That's very demanding to be in Europe. You got air conditioning. Which I can think of one person in particular, although it's really both of you. You got to have air conditioning.

I need air conditioning if I'm in the North Pole. Look, if I can find my perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can. Booking.com is definitely the easiest way to find exactly what you're looking for. Like, for me, a non-negotiable is I need a gorgeous bathroom for selfies. You do.

You love selfies. As long as I got a good bathroom mirror for selfies, I'm happy with everything else. Look, they're, again, they're specifying, like, oh, maybe you want a sauna or hot top? And I'm like, sounds good to me. Yeah. Please. Can I check that box? You want one of those in the recordings, do that.

That'd be great. You want to start, you want to be. I'll be in the sauna when we record. I was going to say, you want to be the Dalton Trumbo, a podcast. You want to be splish splash and well talking. You would be good if I had a sauna. and a cold plunge and while recording

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booking. Yeah. All right, I'm opening the dossier. Okay, in the late 1980s, Cornuc McCarthy, normal guy. Yeah. Chil do. He started working on a screen plate.

Chill dude. Chill dude from a minute one. Started working on a screenplay. I mean, God, like, the whole thing where his first wife married him when he had no fucking money. And they lived in like a shack with no electricity or whatever. And he was like, you have to go make money because I'm writing my books. Yeah.

Normal guy. Yeah. And like, he fucking got away with a lot of shit just by writing masterpieces that after. You know, like, there's other guys you probably do that. and they write unreadable shit. It also took, it took quite a bit of time. It took him a long time, I think, for, to get notice. Like, his books, even his early books are very good.

Like, he's a very interesting writer. But, like, yes, took him a minute. Can you just imagine this guy with this headspace being unsuccessful? Just not going to eat a lot of beans. I just being like, I got to make this fucking work. So in the 80s, he starts writing a screenplay called No Country for Old Men. He couldn't find any funding for it. And he puts it on the shelf.

In 2005, of course. Oh, before. writing the novel. Long before. Oh, so he originally was like, this is a movie. That is why that novel is so goddamn readable. Some of these novels are pretty tough to crack. It is so dialogue heavy. It's

a little more propulsive and plotty or whatever. And you can find, if you go to Texas State University, where I think like all his fucking documents are, you know, a lot of fragments of this screenplay or whatever, but he eventually turns it into a book. It comes out

in 2005, and the reviews even notes like this feels like a Cohen Brothers movie you know what I mean like they're also like in general like oh it's quite cinematic and like I can see its origins or whatever when does the road come out right before right after okay and so the whole thing with cor McArthur is in 2005 when he releases no country for old men he is a major novelist but one year later he releases the road and becomes basically like a celebrity and one of the most famous writers alive it is kind of his no country the movie moment where everyone's like, okay, we all agree. Yeah, well, it's a back-to-back. You're the president of literature.

And he's suddenly, like, he's getting dragged onto Oprah. And he's like a guy who's like never done any fucking press. And he's, like, it's like he cannot avoid the phenomenon that that book is. Yeah. Well, and just him becoming a late in life parent and being like, oh, my God, it's a Cormac McCarthy novel with surface level emotion. Here it comes. Watch out.

Watch out. Watch out. The road is about two people walking down a road. And it's a post-apocalyptic book And it's about a father and son It's so easy to get your hands around I love my son of it Made him an Oprah book club guy for the first time

Because it's like Oprah can't be like Look I like this but this might freak you guys out The road has that quarter I mean the road phenomenal book Yeah phenomenal It is it's very good It is not my favorite by far But it's very very readable

Anyway Scott Rudin Normal guy Normal guy Yeah Get the rights to this book I think before it even releases and he uh as he was want to do yeah basically at this era is just like a fucking vacuum cleaner yeah yeah for any kind of buzzy manuscript yeah um he has been working with the co and since raising

arizona uh he was oversaw production at the age of 28 on that movie and uh this but this is the first time that he is the producer the lead producer of a film of theirs and he does their next three i want to say that sounds he does burn after reading and true grit yeah Does he not do Lewin Davis? No, I think not. Okay. Let me double check this. But certainly true grit.

No, he didn't do burn. Okay. I want to get this right. He did, but he... He did do grit. We talk about it. No, he definitely does grit. Yeah.

I just can't remember what the third thing he does is. It is Lewin. So those are the three movies he worked with them on. Yeah. He gets them to commit to writing. He's hoping he can convince them to direct it. And this is their first adaptation, right? Yes.

I mean, you could call O'Brother an adaptation. of sorts because it's the Odyssey but they would say they never even like opened the Odyssey but when they when they win best screenplay Joel makes the joke of the only two authors we've ever adapted are Homer and Cormac McCarthy which feels right which feels right just very quickly the Lady Killers is also an adaptation I will say oh that's true remake right that's true yeah that's true I just think it's it's interesting the sort of like forethought of normal guys got rooting um to approach the Cohen brothers when they don't really adapt.

You know, a lot of the appeal of their films is their language. Yeah. And how funny they are and tone and, you know, commanding performances that are based on their scripts. Yes. Here are a couple things at play, though. One is Scott Rudin is so fucking hungry to win an Oscar. This is the movie that finally gets in Best Picture. Right, right, right.

And it felt like he had been running his entire life to get to that moment on stage. Yes. And it gets on stage and goes, oh, my God, what a surprise. And I'm just like, my guy, you've been giving this speech in your bathroom mirror. Yes, for a long time. And as David said, this movie has been on like a golden run from the moment it premiered a can. But it was a tough year. I'm sure it was a hard fought campaign or whatever.

Especially because it was, I mean, Miramax is somewhat behind it, but it's a Paramount Vantage movie. Yeah. And I don't know how much Paramount Vantage like was, you know, sharp elbowed in the campaign sphere. It's basically the final stages of post-Winstein Miramax, which will completely dissolve before once again getting revived within a couple years. Yeah. And Vantage is shut down basically within two or three years of this. I mean, actually, I think that Miramax, actually, I think that, I think that 2006, 2007 time period is when they end the partnership with Disney. That sounds about right.

They stop being Touchstone and they go to Weinstein Company. I know the Weinstein... Because Grind House is this same year. That's right. Yes. And that was a Weinstein Company movie. So it definitely... They had left before this.

So... Yeah. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they officially basically shut it down in 2009. Disney did. But Weinstein Company is 05 or 06. It's all in this time here.

It's Fahrenheit 9-11 is the whole flashpoint. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, but just point being, it's the end of that run. Fahrenheit 9-11, of course, a film that lied about my great president, George Shoverth. Your third favorite president. Sorry, Leslie. No, I was just going to say, like, this is the end of the Miramax run and the birth of Scott Rudd. This is a weird co-production of two companies that are in transitional stages.

That hate each other. Yeah. And they're about to close down. Yeah. Stuck between arrows of two different tyrants, as we said. Right? Normal guys. Yeah. Yeah.

But Scott Ruden's playbook for so long. beyond throwing things at people and demanding string cheese was that he would just get in his mind the most talented otors under his wing after they had proven themselves or once they needed some support

and he was basically a human version of like Richard Kelly's the box right where he'd be like just don't look and if you need something push a button and maybe someone gets hurt but you don't have to know about it but you don't have to know about it's not going to fight all your fights for you and insulate you from this

But his favorite thing to do was, like, find the material, find the director, or be like, what do you want to do next? And all of it felt like, in the grand scheme of things, one of these days, this is going to pay off in me winning best picture, right? Yes, the bathroom speeches begin. Right. I'm trying to find the right confluence of elements. So I think that's part of it. He's just constantly looking for what might have the juice and looking in unconventional places to his credit. The other part of it is, post-Labowski, when they're kind of knocked down, they start taking it.

for higher writing jobs for the first time. Right. And so there's a lot of uncredited stuff. But Lady Killer starts out as a script that they were not supposed to direct. And Talbot Cruelty was a rewrite job. They were not supposed to direct. They get talked into both of those. And then there's like the Gambit remake that someone else ends up making.

There's some other stuff. So they're in this zone where they're a little for hire. Yeah. And Rudin's going by that playbook. Oh, I see. If they now... So it's a little more like set up than Rudin having the foresight of... Correct.

Cohn Brothers could write this. Now, the last two times this happened, it didn't work out for them. But I think he's going, this feels like a better match for them. And if I can sneak them through the back door of just try adapting this, maybe they will once again fall in love with the material, agree, directed, and this will actually work for them. So, obviously, the only real Cormac McCarthy adaptation that had appeared in theaters before this is all the pretty horses, which is basically the great. this book ever written. The movie is not very good. Supposedly there's a better cut out there somewhere. Right. It's a contested

certainly the movie that was released in theaters was not what anyone wanted to make and the question is was there a version of it that would have worked? I think that Billy Bob Thornton by his own admission essentially screened an assembly. That's what he said

and that everybody freaked out. Everyone was like, right, exactly. Exactly. That book is also poetic, spare, difficult to adapt, like silently care, you know, like, whatever. Sure. This is a pulpy thriller. Like, and the co-ins are like, we're very aware of McCarthy, but like this felt like

something we could get our hands around much more. But they love that it's a pulpy book that's an ordinary, straightforward treatment of a crime story, and then the ending is so weird. Yes. They like the three quarters in, suddenly they're like, main character. is going to disappear. You know what I mean? So they like the chase story

then getting subverted. There's another thing they love, which is that for the first half of the 2000s, their big dream project was to the White Sea, as covered extensively in our friends Ray and Jordan's podcast, which was a novel adaptation that is mostly in the one character's head that doesn't have a ton of dialogue.

And is this sort of odd take on a survival film? And they could never get that off the ground. Right? Yeah. But they, in really, reading this book, link back to that the same thing that animated them, which is having a

character who barely talks, who you get to define by his actions within a survival situation. Right. Right? That it is circumstantial behavior. Can you paint a full character portrait through that? Oh, interesting. That this guy speaks so rarely. He's at the center of the story.

I'm only seeing him in a very specific set of circumstances. And we're learning who he is through how he tries to game out his continued survival. That is what's up. And so, right. They try to make the movie that is just all that and it's a little too wild and a little too expensive. Right, right. They had Brad Pitt. He fell out. They were like, it's not getting green if you don't have him. Right. Suddenly, it's like Rudin's bringing them this. It's a smaller budget. It's a cleaner cell. They, but it's got the same juice that they had wanted to play with. Jay J.J. thinks this and I agree with him that it is a lot. There's a lot of it that

reminds me Miller's Crossing, both adapting writers, Mills Crossing inadvert, or like more indirectly doing Dachel Hammett, not as specific, but like, as they would put it, like, they like how Cormick McCarthy, this is a quote from Ethan, refuses to tell you what people

are thinking and just describes what people are doing. I am so into that. They like the lack of interiority. They're like, that's engrossing. That's like interesting in a movie. And they, you know, you have in this book, a bad guy, Anton Shiger. I don't know if you guys agree. He's a bad guy.

I think he raises some interesting ideas. He's the marketplace of ideas. You have essentially a good guy, Sheriff Bell. Yeah. And then you have Llewellyn in the middle who's kind of a gray guy, kind of a sort of like, he's not malevolent, but he's kind of, you know, fucking with things. He's driven by greed, which we all can relate with. He likes his, he loves his wife, which we're all kind of down with. He does some stupid things where, you know, as the outsiders, we can definitely be like, I wouldn't do that, but like, you don't know, you're kind of, you know, we're all kind of stooped. Relatable, yes, 100%.

And then, you know, just the classic, in too deep, in over his head, recognizable, beginning, middle, and end to your every man storyline. And you start out with this triangle of like kind of an unlikely protagonist, right, through us in the middle of the wrong story, being chased by an unstoppable force. Yes. And the cop who is slowly narrowing in on it all from a distance. Sort of circling around it slower and closer and closer. Right. They make it clear to brood in like, hey, this is going to be violent. Like, just making sure you're cool with that.

Right. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. They have the line of one of us. It sounded a little different than that, but yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. One of us types in the computer, the other holds the spine of the book flat. That's very funny. With the book, every other chapter is narrative

And then every other chapter is an interior monologue from the sheriff They get rid of a lot of his monologues You only really do the opening And then some of it he says out loud in dialogue But that's the only voiceover Right, right, right, right They strip out dialogue wherever they can They like the least possible

Which is another interesting thing of this movie Because they are perhaps They are certainly in the conversation of the best dialogue writers alive. That's the thing. Their movies are so talky. Certainly. I think their films have always been

consciously, I think they're never really defining their characters through their language in a traditional way because one of the things I think they're so smart about as dialogue writers

is that their characters are usually using dialogue to lie. Yes, exactly. Right? If not for like devious criminal means in like saying who they want to be or how they want people to see them. Yeah, that's a really good point.

And they've always been defining through action. And what's interesting is the clash between the action and the words, right? I think in terms of why this movie just connected with everyone, there's something about them pulling back the dialogue a bunch. Yes, yeah. That I think sometimes their detractors would get distracted by the tap dancing of the verbiage and going like, who are they trying to impress? Well, this is the thing, right?

Is this too clever? Yeah, this is the thing. Like, I am struggling with this because there are a lot of reasons I would call this a masterpiece. A lot of reasons. But the last two times that I've been on this podcast and I've gotten the opportunity to talk about masterpieces, I, and I've always felt this way that a masterpiece has to have something personal about it. And these, like, Minnesotan Jewish guys. Yeah. It's like if I'm, if I have that criteria, which I made for myself, by the way, so I can absolutely break that.

But what I will say is that what this movie does, because the script is so faithful to the source material, is that it shows you what phenomenal filmmakers they are. Yes. It does not, there's nothing covering it. There's nothing going like, but also we smoothed it over with this thing and like we created a character. that represented that and like, you know, and then, because you could say Barton Fink, you could say Fargo, you could say Miller's Crossing for fuck's sake. Like, there's also an argument for a serious man, for sure. Like, so I think, but what's so energizing about it?

And I think it's exactly what you're saying about everywhere one was like they're back. Is that you really get to see my fucking God, they can shoot a movie. Better than anyone else. Better than anyone else. Basically from the beginning. Yeah. Like just right out of the gate. Boom.

Gorgeous shot. Right. I was sheriff of this. Boom. You know, like, it just... Some of the most amazing, like, shot making in this movie. It's... Look, it's pretty.

It's really pretty movie. It's really pretty. It's all the pretty movies. It's a dramatic part of the country. It looks really cool. There will be blood wins cinematography this year. And there's nothing wrong with that win. Elsewood is a genius.

But let's acknowledge the tricky thing that happened. happen. Double Deak. Deacons was nominated against himself. For Jesse James. For Jesse James in this. The thing with so this I think is. So that it splits the vote. I think a little bit of that. It's like no disrespect to Ellswood who once again. He's a great DP and that movie looks very good. Yes. That movie's also got some shot Megan. But no country I think is Deacons you know just like tweaking the knobs perfectly, right? Like, it is not a showy piece of, you know, cinematography.

Jesse James is. Jesse James is like, you're like every single frame. You're like, good Lord. Like, I'd like that frame to please. Like, actually hang that in my house. It's an amazing looking movie. Perhaps his prettiest movie. Right.

It's a bit much at times, as is everything in that fucking movie. Which I like. I do like that movie. But, right, I'm sure he's split the vote against himself. This should be his crowning moment. He should be winning with the comedy. It takes another 10 years for him to win cinematography. Jesus.

For the first time. And then he won three in a row. It was the same thing they did to Lubaski. Ooh, I think. Okay. He won for... It was Blade Runner in 1917? He won for Blade Runner 2049.

Yeah. Which is an amazing looking movie that rocks, but I think at the time, people were like, kind of a bummer he won for, like, a sequel to a movie he wasn't the D.P. on. But it was also like, guys, please, can we get this movie? Yes, and then he won again for 1917, and that's a movie that is loud cinematography, obviously, it's a single shot and all that, and it was this sort of technical achievement, and that was a fine win, but it's, you know, he should have won with the Coens when they won Best Picture. He's more tied to the Coens than any other filmmaker. I agree. I agree. And this is a triumphant work that he made with him, but whatever. I mean, I don't fucking know. Maybe I should just go sit in a chair. No, I'm with you.

I have a theory. The one behind the microphone in the office is where we recorded. Oh, that's right. Oh, that's right. But here's my, here's what I would say about that. Here's why there's a possibility this is why that he may not have won, right? Yes, there are gorgeous shots in this movie. Yes, there are beautiful landscapes.

Yes, there's, you know, a lot of what I would call, yeah, beautiful showy shots. Yeah. And this is not my idea. It's actually from the YouTube channel, every frame of painting. Great. Great YouTube channel. Check those guys out. Yeah.

Not that they need podcast. him out yeah absolutely his video on specifically well that but the coens one where he talks about the way they shoot conversation so he talks about shot reverse shot yep so he says you know this is how they work essentially uh that's where they shine right and deacons in that video makes the point that with the coens he uses the long lens for the coverage of the character he is basically always inside the conversation you're almost never getting over the shoulders the camera is in between the people talking. It's in between the people. It's the...

Sonnenfeld loved a wide lens and Deacons is the one who's like, guys. Yes. A little. Let's do it. And I think that, for example, the coin toss scene, as great as Frendo is in terms of dialogue,

which, by the way, that's what they shine at, right? The, what really kills me in that scene is the framing of them. The sense of space. The sense of space. We don't need an establishing. shot that tells you everything about that space, you see how out of place sugar is and you see

how much Jean Jones lives in that world. And there's something even haunting about Gene being in this very busy frame behind the counter, all the stuff hanging behind him on the wall, and then the window behind him. Yeah. And the sense of kind of endless emptiness behind him. Yes. That's true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a constant reminder that these big action sort of moments in this film are happening in spots in between emptiness. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exactly right.

You're in the middle of nowhere. And I think that's my point about Deacons is that he just doesn't, like in this film, he's doing perfectly what they do. Yes. Their editor is doing perfectly what they do, which is their editor who is them. Yeah, who is them, right? Right. The rhythm of the dialogue. they understand. Even if it's not what they quote unquote wrote, it is what they do best.

It's a good match. Yeah. So it just, yeah, I wonder if that's why he just didn't have the, you know, the landscapey, beautiful. I just, I don't know if, but I agree that he should have won with them, is my point. He did the apex of what they do. I also think. Understood the assignment, as the kids say. I've said this in other episodes. I think no one.

And I do think he's aura farming. Anton Sugar is aura farming a bit I don't even know what this It's the new things the kids say It basically seems to mean like O-O-O-A like A-U-R-A You know how kids are always saying That like people have aura

Yeah It's like I guess it's just any scene in a movie Where you kind of stand there looking cool Everyone's like bro is aura farming Okay I've just I've been seeing it You're trying to get the clout for Yeah

Establishing great vibes or whatever Yeah Reaching out to a new audience It's both praise and slightly derogatory, I guess, where it's like, okay. Yeah. And just to be clear, we're trying to make our show catch on more with the TikTok generation. Is Llewellyn Moss

Sigma? Can we talk about this? I do think... I'm pointing up at the word sigma. I'm like throwing myself up a bridge. He's having a brat summer. Podcast over. Well, no, Shagur is having a brat summer. He is quite a brat, actually. He is serving. It would be funny if Woody Harrow is like, you guys are saying.

Chigur is having a brat summer to like Stephen Root or whatever. I, uh, Two things about Deacons. One, I think he's better at shooting actors than anyone else alive, period. Period. Yeah. And it's so much his background as a documentary cinematographer, not being able to compose a block.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just has a really good instinct of understanding exactly where he needs to be in relation to the performer to capture best what they're doing. Yeah. So there is that kind of very unsholy camera is always just the exact right place to make. Everyone pop because basically every performance is good in a movie that Roger Deacon shot. And he knows that the thing that is going to be scary about that scene is not the camera. Yep.

The camera is not going to make the scene scary. He understands always that he's in service of the thing, right? And then secondly, he is able to shoot inanimate things with, I was going to say inanimate things, but it's just non-people, things that are not faces. Things that are, yeah. With a sense of innate power in dread. Agreed. shot really on in the movie of the scuff marks left from the boot of the sheriff that Sugar has choked out with the handcuffs is just like one of the most striking images

in this film. I agree. I agree. And it also is the moment, the first time I saw it, it is the moment where it's like, get on board. Yes. This is the fucking movie. Yep.

There's no fake out. We're starting here. There's no, it's just, we're starting here. It's only going to go. We're starting at 11, get excited. I do think it's weird there's no bloopers at the end. Like he flips the coin, he's like, that was the mid-2000s, by the way, yeah, for the...

Yeah. Life is a highway, whatever, just, you know. Every time he... This is the dawning... Every time Deacons captures the, the keylock being shot through with the cattle gun. Do you know what I'm saying? whatever is, the cylinder.

Yeah. The cylinder of the key at the fucking door. Jesus, yeah. Yeah. And there's the one time, maybe it happens a couple of sense, the one time I remember distinctly where he quickly cuts to a shot of the impact, the imprint left on the back wall of the motel room. Yeah.

And stuff like that is somehow like the most upsetting imagery in the movie. Yeah. More than the stuff that is aggressively bloody. Yeah. Yes, yeah. Just to wrap up the dossier, the dociate. The Ducey. McCarthy did visit the set, but I think

they basically just described him as amiable and gracious, not like there to render judgment. They talk about him coming to a screening early on, and they heard him laugh a couple times, and they went, I guess that means he approves. I mean, famously that means the Coens

like to take. Yes. I've heard that for multiple people. I feel like someone just texted. That's correct. Like, they don't really give a lot of notes, and then you do the take, and if they're like, ha, ha, ha. Then it's like, all right, I guess In unison. Moving on. And does not need to be a funny scene.

They just, like, giggle maniacically if they like what's happening. So this is a crazy... Okay, this is interesting just behind the scene stuff. So Rudin is in the final stages of his deal of Paramount when he gets the rights to this novel. Paramount is turning Paramount Classics into Paramount Vantage, which is now Paramount Nothing. Paramount Cowards or Paramount Maga or whatever Paramount's up to these days. It was just so funny when it went for Paramount Claremount. classics which was like this is a the most erudite version of our like archway right right like it felt like it was yeah the paramount like gates framed by like flowers and shit and this like dainty like holography kind of thing yeah and then it was replaced with like fucking punk rock bar bathroom label maker the sticker isn't even staying it's carved vantage

So he will then move on to produce films, a number of studios, including post-Harvey Miramax. Yes. To deal with this transition, he proposes that both no country for old men and there will be blood, a movie he also that could have produced, be set up as co-productions of Paramount Advantage and Miramax. Right, right. They have, they're flipped. Miramax essentially being, of course, a Disney label, you know, in the dying days of that. But isn't it, no country was. was Miramax Domestic Paramount

overseas and there will be blood was the opposite? I feel like... Something like that. Yeah. I don't know what you're going to say. No, I just,

I feel like knowing Miramax... Yeah, you're right, group. Okay. Oh, you were... That's what it is? Okay. It was Miramax had domestics on... Domestic on this

and international and blood and vice versa for... Probably that. I cannot believe you knew that. I can't... Broken... My broken.

What the fucking rude? And also produced Darjeeling Limited and Margo wedding in 2007. So he's just working a lot of otters making, but making difficult movies.

Like Darjeeling is a bit of a difficult swing for Anderson that doesn't go over perfectly. Margo is an insanely difficult swing for Bomback that goes over horrible. Horrible. And it's still, I feel like the movie when people are like, I like, no bomb back. I'm like, Margo at the wedding. And there's the 5% of psychos who are like, oh, my favorite.

And the others are like, I never saw it or I hated it. It was like drinking poison. The rude and magic was that he was like a a fucking mafia boss who was like, if this is what want to make. Yeah. I will steamroll anyone who stands in the way.

Yeah. Yeah. I got you 100%. I mean, it's a really good strategy. Yes. If you think about it.

It's how he attracted the best directors because he was just like, you will be protected. It's actually like, you know, actually Netflix kind of did that in its early days.

We're not going to give you notes. We're not going to give you notes. Just come in here and fucking do it. Right. And now they still don't give notes, right? The normal. No,

the Netflix thing was for so long, what is the movie? They're super chill. And they're all about artistic vision And they like everything to look however it should look Exactly And they never demand that every movie open With an overhead helicopter shot of the city

Instead Where they're basically like They have some numbers that tell them If that isn't the opening shop And people are putting their like fucking Trader Joe's dinner On their table with their mug You know like they don't want to pay attention for 35 minutes

No thank you Same But, yeah, the Netflix strategy, first is the rude thing. I feel like the Netflix strategy was for years, them being like, what is the script everyone else has turned down? Yes. Well, that's what it is. We will let you make it here with a lot of money and no notes.

And then some of those came out and you were like, oh, I get why everyone turned this script down. No country. They write, by the way, just to point out, they write at the same time as a serious man and burn after reading. I think it's important to note that because it's like they hadn't made an original movie in a long time. Right. right at this point and it's not like this is them and then they're like maybe we should it's like they do have these original ideas cooking at the same time but also this period of like profound productivity for them they they start being like once a year guys

this run of bangers that all came out of the same yeah create a bubble an interesting fact about this movie is that apart from stephen root I think everyone in it is someone they've never worked with before and it doesn't feel that way everyone in it you're like oh Oh, these feel like Cohen guys. And obviously they worked with Brolin again. Yeah. Did they ever work with Bardem or TLJ again, though? No. I feel like did they ever use Garrett Dillan again? He's another guy that feels like they would have used him like five times.

Yes, you know. He auditioned for Llewellyn. Five times. Yeah. Five times. That's what I read. And he could not be more perfectly used in the place he is. We should have been, yeah.

It is also funny that he is also in Jesse James and kind of plays a very similar. What happened with the Heath Ledger of it all? They said he was their first choice, which makes perfect sense after broke back, but also, I think it would have felt a little repetitive. I'm sure he would have figured out a way to make it a distinct performance. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. But you're casting him off of the strength of the thing he just did really well, which is Cowboy

who doesn't say much. However, you know, you've got, you've got Joker in the midst of all of that. So, yeah, it would be an amazing in between if he'd been in. this. Yeah, I agree with everything you just said. I just wonder, yeah, I just wonder if that would have impacted it at all. Probably not. Dark night comes out like eight, nine months after this. Oh, it's after this. I wonder if he had said yes to this, if he would have been able to do Dark Night. He said he turned it down because his daughter had just been born and he wanted to spend time with her. I see. Yeah. Which makes sense. And then after nine, ten months,

whatever, he accepts the Dark Night roll. It feels like everything. I see. Okay. I see. I landed where it should have happened. It's just unfortunate that he passed away. Yeah, very much. Brolin famously was shooting Planet Terror, which he's really good in. Yes. Really funny performance. Yes.

He should do more of that. He does. He works a lot. I shouldn't really complain. And famously got Robert Regis and Quentin Tarantino to help him with his audition tape. And the Coens, when they got it, said, who lit this? Not joking. Yes.

And they liked it. Yes. How it was lit. They didn't like him and they said no. And he said that like, he said he thinks it hurt that he was like really big and he had this goatee for the role in Planet Terror and he thinks he didn't look right. But he was also just like, I don't think they liked me. Like it's fine. Like I wasn't vibing for them.

But they couldn't cast this role. Right. Let's talk about Brolin's status at this point. Sure. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. He's like a teen actor, a son of an actor. He's a Nepo baby.

His dad is a pretty famous actor I feel like maybe people don't put enough respect on James Rowland's name anymore but he said the Coins would certainly like know who he was But he was kind of like an A plus B-less star

if that makes sense? He was very similar to James Garner to me. Like where it's like a big TV actor and a sort of solidish movie actor. Had the absolute leading man vibes. Yeah. Never a face. He was famously very close to being Jameson. Yeah. He was almost the only American James Bond.

And, of course, he's been married to Barbara Streisand for a very long time. Wow. Which I'm sure is normal as well. We're talking about so many normal. He has this run of like thrashing and Goonies and all his teen performances, right? Where he has just kind of like out of the box charisma as a kid. And then talks about that he hit a point where he was just like, I want to get good at doing this and tried to really like study. Learn how to be better.

And then yet was still stuck. in kind of like a true B-movie fourth lead zone. It's a Jessica Lang moment. Yep. Right? Like it's a King Kong. Hold on a second. Yep.

Like one moment. Yep. You know. In 2000. Right. But he was stuck there for a while. Well, 2000 he's in Hollow Man as like the guy where you're like, hey,

Holloman, bash this guy's fucking head. And he sucks. He was always the, he's like, what's the matter, girlfriend? You're like, fucking, I can't wait for the invisible man to waste this guy. Fuck this guy. He always had kind of like... He's going to die like second. Right.

Fake lead. Get him out of here. Right. And then he's in like fucking nothing. The villain into the blue. Right. It's the... In 2004, apparently, he's in Melinda, Melinda.

I don't remember that. I did see that film. 2005, he's the villain in the Paul Walker, Jessica Alba, shirtless film into the blue. One of those films where it was like, what's the plot? And they're like, shirtless. shirtless. Yeah. Chet suit.

Yeah. 2006, he was in the dead girl. That didn't win the coin. And then in 2007. Right. He's in Grind House. In the Valley of Alah, the movie that Tommy Lee Jones gets an Oscar nomination for, No Country for Old Men, an American gangster.

And he's also in the Coen Brothers short film to each his own cinema. To each his own cinema. Right. The next year, he does W. Mm-hmm. He plays, my favorite president. Yeah. Besides.

Besides the later one. Yeah. Not a one. No, it is Joe. It's actually Joe. It's a Joe. It's Joe. It's Joe.

We're back on. And Milk, which he is phenomenal. His final. And he gets a very, very good in that. His first Oscar novel. His only. Only. And then after that, he has kind of a weird,

are you a star thing where it's like Jonah Hex? It doesn't work. Him for a long time was one of those actors. And in Black 3. Like he's good in it. The old boy remake. Old boy remake. It's just so misguided, you know.

He felt quietly like box office poison for a while. where any time he was in a supporting part, it worked. And any time a movie was pinned on him, it was a disaster. It was a disaster. A little bit. But he's a working actor. Yes. He's a working actor.

And then he played Thanos. And it was one of those things where you're like, that feels like a bummer for him. Yeah. And like, Marvel's not going to pull that off. And God bless him, they pulled that off. And he pulled that off. It was when Ruffalo was cast as Hulk. Yeah.

Same sort of feeling, right? You're like, what? Why is he doing that? Why is he doing that? And then fantastic. And then fantastic. To your point, it's the fact that he pulled it off, that people were like, he actually gave a real performance here. He's the only reason this shit is working.

I mean, he has this run that's like inherent vice. Sicario, which he's great in. Of course, he's probably good in that. Everest where he's one of the ten people trying to climb Everest. Hail Caesar, which he's great in. Only the brave. He's phenomenal in that movie. And then the fucking two Avengers movies, this is a Sicario sequel.

And then the Dunes, which he's wonderful in. No, I think he's... And now he has... And now he's doing Zach's movie. But now he's been a little quieter lately, but now he's in Zach's movie. Right. He's in the new Knives Out.

He's rolled about that. He's in the Running Man, the Edgar Wright movie. And he's in this Ridley Scott movie called The Dog Stars that's like a post-apocalyptic movie with like Jacob Allorty and him. I'm sure that'll be fun. I guess.

It's just... It's funny how there was. It's like, fine. Fine. Ridley Scott shot it like two days. He just set up a bunch of cameras in a circle and was like, go on fucking. Oh!

That moment in 2007 where suddenly it was like, Josh Brolin is in five movies this year working with all major directors. Right. Who made a phone call. Like, what is this. Right. Like what we were talking about in our Mahal and Drive episode of like, why did Hollywood just suddenly all decide this guy? Yeah. And then you see the performances and you were like, this guy figured his thing out. That's the thing. Right. This wasn't like some concerted press effort. Yeah. Roland famously was like day trading to make money. Yes. All the way up to making no country Was married to Diane Lane Was mostly at this point The guy who stands next to Diane Lane While she's having a second act

Sort of right revival Yes He says he had a great age Unfaithful was like 2001 He's sitting next to her at the office So five years he's sitting next to her Yeah I love that movie so much when she's so horny

That the wind just fucking blows her across the street It's one of my favorite movies of all time That is a movie where people are like Oh isn't it bad and I'm like Watch it again Sit your ass down Oh it is a face That's the horny version of Sandra Bullock being so racist

she falls down the stairs and crash. It truly is. That is what happens at crash. You can't convince me otherwise. She's so goddamn racist. The floor is like, down you go, bitch. These people.

I truly said to my brother, I remember on next evening theater, I was like, am I supposed to take away that she was so mean to her maid that the maid like cleaned the floors too hard? And that's why she fell down the stairs. My brother was like, what?

She lost her center of race. Oh, my God, you guys, you're going to kill me. I'm going to have a heart attack. But Borland talks about that he had the clarity of just being like, I know this is my part. I like, see how to do this. Yeah, this is me. And I've, like, said something in me that I haven't gotten the chance to show and this is the vehicle and I have to figure out how to get through it. And he said, like, I had a very good agent who was very persistent who wasn't like he's perfect for the part, but was just like, can you just meet him?

And especially as they're not finding someone else, they could wait back and hold back six weeks later, go, like, you want to take another look at Josh? And the way he puts it is, finally, they're like, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, he can come down. He says, I started a few scenes. I came down and met them. There was really no reaction in the meeting. I walked out being like, well, it was really nice that I met the Coens. I'm a big fan. And by the time he got home, he got the part.

You know, he was told he got the part. Ethan says, like, they had just talked to both Tom. and Javier that day and he comes in and that combo helped them be like, yeah, these three guys circling each other kind of make sense to us. Yeah, yeah.

And I think there's also the kind of like, it's weird, it's like Tommy Lee Jones is a major star, but obviously he's not exactly like a guaranteed box office guy at that point. No, no. But he's a major star. But like fucking man of the house had come out

to pin drops two years before this. Pin drops. Javier Berdem is like a respected actor who is certainly not a box office guy yet. He's got one shnobble Oscar nom under his... Her Before Night Falls. But this is his first English-speaking movie. He's in collateral in like that one scene, but that's about it. He is largely a Spanish actor.

During the press tour for this, he did not speak much English. And his Oscar speech he gives is a minute and a half and half of it's in Spanish. Like it was that thing where you were like, oh, he kind of learned this. phonetically. I've never seen. When I did Ackolite, Li Zheng She did the entire show phonetically. That's so interesting.

That might have helped his performance in a weird way. Just because, like, Jedi are so remote and his characters obviously kind of, you know, where it's like, that's sort of an interesting thing to hand an actor. Yeah. He also just probably seems hard, though. Yeah. Yeah, but I think with Javier in this movie, what's great is that he's, again, it helps like he

he doesn't need to speak until he needs to speak and there's also something about the unies of the language so everything is well Sugar as you know and you're probably about to read David Cormack

wanted to create a character that was ethnically ambiguous you didn't read it and imagine a human person right so I think that was also And I don't know if this is ignorant on their part, the Cohen brothers, but it seemed to me that they certainly wanted someone that looked ethnically ambiguous. Like what, you know, and what accent is that, which is why the phonetic...

Yes, I think so too. That is good, you know, like the fact that, yeah, when he spoke late, much later, I think, actually, it was, I told them I don't, I don't like violence. Right. And I don't drive. He talks about that he loved the Kornbrother so much. He said yes to this, even though he was like, I don't get this. I don't get within this. I have no idea what's happening.

Right. Yeah. This isn't in my wheelhouse. Yeah. But he has one of the most unique faces. Absolutely. I feel like he has talked about, like, thank God I broke my nose at a young age. Yeah.

Like, I don't think I would have been a movie star. Oh, have you guys seen Haman, Haman, by the way? Yes. I absolutely have. One of the wildest looks anyone has ever had. You know, there was this thing in the 90s is I was a burgeoning cinema fan. And I realized that this is sort of these Spanish films in the 90s. Yeah.

Involved insane amounts of sex and nudity. I don't know if you guys are aware of this. Insane. Biggest Luna, one of these guys who'd be like, hmm, titties. You know, like, or I was just sort of be like, pulling that off the old library show. Yeah. Yeah. But it is very funny to see him.

Yes. You know, well, first of all. That's young, Javierbert. Yeah, that's him and her. It's him in Penelope, who's 18, I think, and he's like 24. Yes. But actually in that movie, I think it's very, like, skinny and sexy in it. Exactly.

And he's very aware of how his physicality is defining his character, right? Like, there's a lot of shots of his cock. No, no, sorry, his cock in underwear. Sorry, to be cleared for the viewers. His bulge. Yeah, his bulge is heavily featured. He's very much objectified. by some of the characters in the film, you know, specifically, you know,

if you don't know the plot of this movie, you don't really need to know it. It's, everyone's having sex. Yeah, it's like a relationship that turns disastrous quickly. So, yeah, like, it's whatever. So, um... It's called Hamon, hamon, which of course means him. Ham. Yeah.

Yes. But point being, I think that was kind of his first... Yeah. Yeah, that was his calling card. That's his calling card. And then he does live flesh, which, uh, rocks. Perdita Durango with Rosie Perez. Yes, he does the, before Night Falls, obviously, is the big breakout, and then the sea inside, another fucking paralyzed guy moving.

Sorry to be, like, painting with a broad brush, that and diving bone butterfly. There's something to him. He's very good. That's a movie where you were like, he's very good in this. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. It's fine. It's a solid kind of. I think the whole bar-dempt thing is that, like, his energy, his look,

his voice are all constantly, like, teetering on this very, very delicate edge between terrifying, sexy and silly. Absolutely. That's what it is. It takes, like, one degree for him to swing so wildly the other way. That is what it is. And it doesn't make sense that he can kind of hold all three. There is something, it's going to sound weird, but there is something that is silly about

the sugar performance. I think that's what they're smart about. It's like 5%. Yes. But if you as an actor, well, the only thing that's said about him in the book is that he doesn't have a sense of humor. Yes. There's no description of him.

There's no like inside his head what's going on. He thought blah blah, blah. Yeah. Or he doesn't, it's a little bit. But I think you have to have a sense of humor to play him. I agree. And I also think that's so much of the styling, which they talk about. The hair.

The hair. I was just going to say. The hair is like. And they put him in the office. if they do a camera test and he's like, is this a prank? Are you fucking kidding me? Why would I look like this? That's the 5% silly. Right. And he was like, that's a silly haircut. They were laughing hysterically. I thought they were bullying me. Yeah. I thought they were setting me up for failure. But the thing he does smartly is understand the funniest thing he could do

is not play the look at all. Right. And he does not. Right. He lets it speak for himself. He knows it funny. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right. And that's the sort of. sort of like conflict within it of just, I cannot get my head around this guy. And they found that hair from a, they found the hair from a photograph of a guy in, what, in the 70s, who's at a brothel. It's a book that Tommy Lee Jones had, supposedly. I just love the idea. Hey, fellas, want to read my book.

That is a great accent. Fantastic. Violence. He does hate violence, but. Doesn't drive. He doesn't drive. but uh but he would um he would apparently like he says like i managed to drive myself into the part to become evil to become death when the camera stopped rolling i would bed the cone

brothers like all right all right can you get the gun out of my face and said he said they would just be giggling i mean which is just like the story of the actors um yeah uh the haircut yeah supposedly a photograph of a guy in a bar at a texas border town in 1979 uh their haircut is acting by itself, Bardem says. You don't have to act weird. Right. Yeah. Don't play the hair. No, you have it. To me, he looks like, and this is

the thing they thought about it, but he looks like a fucking monk or knight from like the crusade. Sure. Like, that's like what people look like in paintings from the 10th century. I feel like they also joke about Dorothy Hamwell, but that's part of it. Of like... It just looks like he walked out of another dimension. That's what it is. Like, that's just what it is.

Where you're like, this is a human person and he does bleed and shit. Like, it's not like he's the Terminator exactly. I agree. But you are are just like, is this someone from, yeah, just like another world? Here's, like, an alien or thing. Here's the thing I will admit that makes me sound stupid, because I am stupid. You're a big stupid idiot. Excuse me, I'm a little stupid idiot.

I'm very petite. You're physically small. There's stupidity. Much grande. When I speak to you, I mean, the first thing I think of is ignorance. Yes, absolutely. First and foremost, I remember watching this movie for the first time and getting to the gravestone at the end and being like, oh, this was a period piece?

Yeah, it's 1980. Yeah, they do. At the time I watch it. The first time I felt that too. I still get so caught up in it. I forget it was not set in 2007 until the Vietnam line. Yep. Which somehow I just didn't clock the first time I wasn't doing the math on.

The production design is astonishing. Exactly. And they're not playing period that hard. No. Right? And it's like the earmarks are the lack of certain technology, what have you, right? But there is something kind of timeless about it. And yet, Shigur is the only character who is kind of styled specifically to the 70s in a way that is then so jarring.

Yes, yes, yes. Why is this guy like a weird amalgamation of trends, you know? Oh, of trends. Yes, yes, yes. I see what you mean. And not like high fashion trends, but you're like, you sort of got like a Canadian tuxedo thing going on. He's got very 70s boots on. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, the costume designer talked about how she wanted the boots to feel like a weapon. Yes. Like knives, basically. And she said she was like no one else in the movie is wearing this style of boot. His pants are even kind of like slared out. Yes. It's got a heel to it sort of. But there's the moment late in the film when he's trying to extract the bullet from his leg.

And they cut to him sitting in the motel bathroom, right, with his legs crossed. gorgeous using tweezers to try to pull out a bullet shard and he's like bending down and he looks hot but also he's not posing in a naturally menacing way right there's something as if he is posed as if he is painting his own nails he this is what i mean and he's like slouched over and i think it starts with himone himone right is that i think this is a man who understands that a lot of acting is the neck down he's got a tremendous amount of body he cuts just a just a big figure, right? And he's really smart about knowing how to subvert what you expect him to do

or how you expect him to play a scene without just feeling like he's being flippant, you know? Or like contrarian or whatever. Yeah. And it's like, right, somehow the fact that he's not playing that scene tough makes it tougher. Somehow the fact that he's like slouching over in a way where there actually are tummy rolls rather than later when he stands up in the towel and you see him looking pretty cut makes him look more sexual

but also makes it more otherworldly where you're like it's even weirder to see this haircut on a naked body you know David? Yes. Can I identify your single biggest issue?

You might as well. Call me out. I think I finally, it's been 10 years the podcast about 15 years of friendship. I think I finally nailed. Tell me. What is it? Your butt.

You're too much of a yes man, like the Jim Carrey comedy. Okay, yeah. Okay, so Zoe Day Chanel's hanging around maybe. Absolutely, Bradley Cooper. You need to start being more of a doctor no James Bond's first film entry. Of course, and we all know who played Dr.

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I was worried that I was going to say Robert Wise instead. That's why I didn't have the courage. I was like, I think it's Joseph Wiseman, but I was worried. I was going to fly that. David, yes. I wear glasses. Ah, to see. I do, in fact, wear them to see.

I used to wear them as an affectation when I was a child. Well, I did the same thing. Yeah. I pretended they were real. And then people found me out to be a fake. And then because of that, when I started, actually needing glasses and wearing them for real, all my friends. Crying wolf.

Convinced that it is still just an affectation, but it is not. I assure you. My vision gets worse. By the minute, it feels like sometimes. But. I just stopped wearing mine. Yeah, how's that going for you? It sucks.

Yeah, see, this is the thing, Ben. What do you mean? Why did you stop? I just got lazy. Ben, you got to get your butt to Warby Parker. You're the one who's always telling me the value, throwing a good fit, right? Yeah.

And feeling good. It affecting your whole sense of self, right? And Warby Parker is like throwing a fit for the face. Yeah. It is. It truly, it immediately improves your quality of life. If you're on board with glasses. Right.

Warby Parker used premium materials. They design frames in house. They've got silhouettes colors and fits made to fit every face. I love the frames themselves. But let me, can I just talk about the experience? Because David, I went through it again recently. Okay. I had an old pair of glasses that had been my mains for a while, break on me.

After several years of loyal service, I salute them. And I went, and it was one-stop shopping. I said, it's been two years. Let me get a new vision test. Get your eye exam. Let me get examined, new prescription, eye pressure test. And then immediately, while I'm waiting for the results, I'm going around, I'm looking at frames, I'm trying them on. And there's a flexibility there, right?

Folks just want cool sunglasses. you can get them cheaper at Warby Parker than a lot of other places. But sometimes you see a sunglass frame you like and you go, can I actually get this in clear vision lenses? Can I get this pair meant to be readers as sunglasses? You can try on all sorts of crazy stuff. This is my new thing I'm into,

sunglasses clip-on, so you just got the one pair. Sure, can pull the Chris Farley meme. Warby Parker has over 300 locations to help you find your next pair of glasses. You can also head over to Warby Parker. Parker.com slash check right now to try on any pair virtually. That's Warby Parker.com slash check. Warby Parker.com slash check.

And if people want to flip a grip, grip style, I'll just say I'm currently rocking the toddy, wide frames, and tortoise shell. Obviously, I would say, is the most Route 1 casting decision in this movie. Yes. Like, we're going to have Tommy Lee Jones play a Texas sheriff who's a little over it. And yet, I think this performance was greeted as a, like, welcome back. And it's an amazing performance. It's really, yeah.

And they wanted this character to be tart. Like, they didn't want, like, a sort of good old boy, essentially. And that's what TLG is so good at. But also what he's good at is from, like, he's from where it's set. You're like, he's the real thing for the region. He just checked every box. And then, you know, there's some interview where someone's like, is he scary? And Ethan says he's a big pussy cat.

And Joel says, let's just say he doesn't suffer fools gladly, but he is fine. Yeah. I also think. Famously, he sued Paramount and got like a fucking ton of money from them because they fucked him on some contract thing. For this movie? Yes. They gave him like $15 million.

That kind of. Yes. But that was not a Cohen's thing, obviously. But I think, right. He waived his quote for some back end that then. They tried to withhold from him. They mess with him. I was going to say, I think a lot of people they could have cast would then try to play, as you said, like, Tart, rough,

Haggard, you know? And what's smart is they, like, hire Tommy Lee Jones. That's his default setting. And then they're sort of saying, like, can you make this your most emotional performance ever? Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the magic of it. It's really magical.

From the get-go, there's something disarming about starting a movie inside Tommy Lee Jones's head where he's basically admitting to the audience, like, I just don't even know anymore. I mean, if you think about, like, you know, him in pop culture, obviously he's acted in a gazillion thing since the fugitive. But, like, that's his, you know, you look at him. That's what you think. It's the defining role in many ways. Yeah, you think high status.

You think, you know, barking orders. You think, yeah, of course, like, you know, being the good guy at the end, but almost sort of reluctantly, right? But, like, I killed my wife. Yes. I don't care. It isn't even, I don't believe you. Yes, you did.

It does not matter to me because I'm the Anton Sugar of this movie. That lie reading wins him the Oscar. And from that moment on, every time he is cast, they are either leaning into that or trying to subvert it. Yeah. Right? Like, it becomes the unavoidable comparison point of this is, as you said, this is what people have in their mind when they think about Tommy Lee Jones.

I think so. And he's not a guy who transforms himself. So he's going to be used differently. But you're never going to be like, that was. I also think I'm just realizing this in this moment that actually it does help the narrative of the movie because there's this understanding that he and his iconic role tracks down the bad guy, quote unquote, right? Like he is excellent at that. So you do continue to think, even subconsciously, he's going to catch this guy. And not only that, you start with his interior monologue and then he's basically not on screen for like 20 minutes. Oh, is that true?

And his screen time increases as the movie goes on, but he's pretty backloaded. So it's important to be like, here's the big movie star. You know who this guy is. Yeah. You're setting expectations based on him being in a movie with this kind of setup. Yeah. We're pinning him at the beginning. You're never going to forget about him.

Yeah. You're keeping track of him the entire time, even when he is elusive from the story. Yes, yeah. Because we're going to have to get back to him at the end and he needs to have been felt the whole time. Yeah, he's, yeah, incredible performance. And, of course, right, he doesn't get nominated for this. He gets nominated for In the Valley of a Law movie that's completely forgotten. It is the same year.

It's not, in my opinion, a movie, but he is unsurprisingly, very good in it. And it was kind of a combo nom. And everyone knew that Bardem was basically walking away with supporting actors, so I think they didn't. Just quickly, who was, just a couple, a couple vibes of who the other guys were? For, okay, so lead that year is Daniel Day wins. He wins. Yes, right, right, right. And maybe those twins, I'm a bet to my boy!

I mean, that is cunt. George Clooney and Michael Clayton, did you see that interview he gave about it that was so funny? It was on one of the talk shows where he says, like, the thing, Clooney says, like, the thing I get the most praise for from, like, people now is the final scene of Michael Clayton, just drive, right? And he's like, the reason I agree with them is that entire fucking scene we were shooting. Have you seen this interview? Yes, it's incredible. Like, what people on the street were going, hey, George Clooney, they were seeing it in the window. I was like, oh, because it was just filming live.

And they were like, we had one take of that. It was like one mag. We weren't going to get a second truck. I am trying so hard not to laugh the entire scene. And people are like, what is he thinking of? Like, the blankness on his face is so profound. And you're like, that guy's just trying to hold his shit together. Hey, Georgie.

There's a, there's a story like that about De Niro and Robin Williams. My favorite story. Which I'm not going to say on this podcast. Okay. I was going to say. Oh, you can do it. I feel like I can't say it. Yeah, the listeners can look it up.

Wait, wait. What is it again? Robert does it. It's Robin Williams and De Niro in Awakenings. And it's a similar vibe. It's a sequence in the movie in which De Niro has not yet awakened. That's correct. So he is a man trapped inside a body.

And we've got bystanders. He's back of a car. You know, screaming. Hey, De Niro. You know, like this. And he's just. just keeping his stillness. That's correct.

This character cannot react. Yeah. Yeah. And then, because David asked, a guy yells out, Hey, Bob, hey, you still like that black pussy? Can you imagine?

And De Niro's just like... No, De Niro breaks. Oh, okay, okay. That guy. Williams was like, it was the only time I ever saw him, where he had to be like, yeah, I did it. It's so, it's...

You got me there. It's dark, but it's a fucking, It's a story. We'll say it's a story. We'll say that. Guys got me pet. You have the nominees for Best Actor that year. It's a very strong year because Vigo Mortensen in Eastern Promises, which is another one where you're like, is this like a lizard from Jupiter?

Like, you know, this guy who shows up is just like, I cut off hands and feats and you're just like, I want to. I believe you. Oh, boy. Lizard from Jupiter. And then Depp in Sweeney Todd, which is this sort of divisive performance, but is him, you know, trying something. It is. It's him. And supporting is...

Totally normal guy, by the way. Just, it's the most... We're saying so many normal people. And we love talking about that. Supporting actor, we do. We've never done it. No, it's never cut up. Our Dem,

Phillips Seymour Hoffman, and Charlie Wilson's War, he had just won an Oscar, but that's a showy supporting performance. I mean, the one scene. Yes. It's just lights up. Tom Wilkinson and Michael Clayton. Arguably a worthy winner,

incredible performance. Casey Affleck, Jesse James. Yes, total category fraud. he's a lead, but he's supporting to Pipp, but really, really good performance. Another normal person. Another normal. Totally normal. And Hal Holbrook and Into the Wild, which is a career non-but a great performance. Yes. Yeah. Right. And I think was seen as it might be his year in a gold watch kind of, thanks for a great career. But sugar was just like, it felt like. It doesn't sound like the strongest year to me in terms of competition for him.

That was sort of the question behind the question. I also just think... Like, was anybody giving him a run for his money? No. I feel like he basically had this lock from the moment the film premiered. And I also think... I remember saying to people when this came out, like, this is the most iconic villain that anyone has created since Hannibal Lecter. I agree with that.

Excellent. The voice, the look, the behavior. Agreed. For scene for scene. This is just this character so fucking sticky. Yeah. And I said to a friend in film school, like people are going to be parodying this character

for 20 years. It is to my great relief that I feel like what happened is one year later the Joker comes out. Yes. Oh yeah. Yeah. And that becomes the villain that basically everyone is sort of trying to chase for the next 20 years. It would be funny if like Dank Meme Lord's

sort of like Anton Shigerring overall. You know what I mean? Like if he became there like guys. I think it is to culture's great gain that somehow Shiger. That's a really good point. Got spared the memeification that would have kind of flattened him a little bit based on the Joker like nine months later. Yeah. Just becoming the thing.

And then also like most other villains after that are sort of trying to iterate on what Ledger did. Yes. And it still makes Bardem and this feel like this very unique, bizarre lightning in a bottle thing. Yeah. Also with the benefit of not being like and then Hopkins played Lecter three more times, you know. Yes, yeah, exactly, exactly. We suddenly throw that person in the lead, and it's like, no thank you. Yeah, because I just still, I watch this and I go, like, where the fuck did this come from?

Right. And it still feels fresh to me. Yeah. Yeah. So, wait, back to the essay. Call of McDonald, amazing in this. Oh, unbelievable. So good.

Kind of a swerve casting wise, obviously, to get the Scottish actors. It's a little bit like a Helena Bodham Carter fight club situation where you're like, the girl from train spawning is Scottish woman alive? Just dropped in the middle of, yeah. But she's like, she's so good. And just like talk about perfect characterization and few words. Their first exchange on the couch of the trailer, right? Yeah.

Whereas like you keep talking like that. I'm going to have to take you back and fuck you. Yeah, yeah. And then she's like big talk. Big talk. And then he just sits there and can't you to drink beer and you see it on her. Keep it up. Keep it up. I wish he would. I know. I'm like, let's go. Cut to that. Not the fucking water.

Right. Kelly MacDonald, much, much better than the character in the novel. I would agree with that. If there's any real kind of... And the character in the novel is much more overwritten. Yes. Oh, yeah. That's a good. Is Beth Grant the iconic. Oh, you know.

Always good at playing a baddie lady. Absolutely. I'm starting to doubt your commitment to Sparkle motion. Yes. And that is... iconic behavior. And is the pageant head in Little Miss Sunshine

as well having the freak out? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very good at that. Stephen Root being Stephen Root. Is he the actor they have worked with the most?

I was sort of trying to do a little count in my head. Who? Stephen Root? I'm like, McDormon, Busemi. But I mean like McDormand, right, is obviously up there. Right.

Roots in so many of them. He's in. So many. Yeah. So many. Remember him in True Blood? Fantastic and True Blood. Isn't he incredible?

Yes. What the hell? He's always good. He's always good, but that was a moment where I was like, oh, I was unfamiliar with your game, Mr. Rick. Right. He'll do something that's another string to his bow. You're kind of like, oh, I thought you played this kind of guy, this kind. Is O'Brother his first Cohen's, though? Is that possible?

It looks like it is. And then you have Lady Killers. He's great in that scene. No, conjure. he is. Scruggs. Scrugs. Okay.

Four? I don't know. That was a cursory glance. Yeah. McDonald, one thing that's interesting about her, though, is that she's sort of, because she's so peppered in the movie, she said she would, like, shoot for a day and then be off for, like, two weeks. Yeah.

Then shoot for another day and be off for another couple weeks. And she mostly just, like, hung out in South Texas. So the energy, the character who's just sort of like, I don't totally know what this whole movie is going on here. Right? Something's happening, but I'm not. I have no reference for, you know. Privy to.

Yeah. I mean, the other. notable performance to call in this movie is like they kind of save Woody Harrelson from

the wilderness with this film I think that's it's the start of his yeah it's a nice little Janet Lee

right like it's a little like oh here comes the he's dead you know and 10 years earlier you're like

he would have played Luellen that's true and he definitely felt a little dinged at this moment I remember even see him in

the trailer and going like Woody Herald that's interesting they think he has just from the major peck and paw

energy And they're like, he gives us, like, you know, the sort of whatever, like that thing. It's just like a perfect three-scene arc. Like, there's an entire many movie in his performance. Bobonic. Yeah. What? It says compared to what?

The bubonic plague. Film costs about $30 million. Much of the film was shot in New Mexico. But also Texas. Right. So we mentioned Marfa. Texas and Marfa famously kind of an artie town

they got a lot of you know boutiquey little galleries and stuff they got the Prada store right of course yeah I forgot that right I forgot about that that photo oh my god and right and of course there no there will be

blood is shooting at the same time yes and there's a time they're shooting brolin in like remote west Texas and across the like horizon is Paul shooting like like oil on fire or whatever. Just insane, right. It's very cool.

Yeah. But yeah, no, I mean, this, we've talked about a bunch of the scenes out of order, but you're really just dropped into the middle of it, Tommy Lee Jones's head, and then the cop trying to call in about Shigur immediately kills him, and then you're out in the road and you're seeing the first use of the cattle gun. Is that the right term? Yeah, it's a cattle prod or a bolt pistol or whatever you want to call it. I mean, just such an incredible choice.

Yeah, it's right out of the book. Going back to the power of objects, right? This idea that he takes this thing that is obviously menacing and dark. It is a thing we used to, like, insert power. It's like a super villain weapon. Right. You're like, what the fuck is that? But yet, in farming, it's used in a like, well, this is just the nature of my job.

And it's also, yeah, there's sort of a quotidian thing to it and also people are cattle. Right, right, exactly. They're animals. There is an innate dehumanizing in the fact that he is using this to kill people, even though that is what is meant to do to take lives. Yeah. And just the eerieness of him telling the guy to stand still. A thing to note about this movie is that it sounds really good. Now, all Skipleaf say the Go.

Skip Leaves say, of course, their sound editor really takes some pride in this one. They did a lot of on-set sound. rather than sweetening stuff in post Leslie Sorry, this is a complete tangent But you did make the acolyte Please help me When you're doing lightsabers

And the acolyte has a lot of lightsetsets. A lot of them, yeah You know, I just watched Dan Doord No fucking lightsabers Which is fine, like it doesn't need any lightsabers out. No, no, it's not, yeah What do they have now?

Do they have like a full lightsaber? Or is it like still like a glowy stick Where like a lot of the works thing don't? You know, like how much? Yeah, it's a complicated is it? It's the, so for our show, we were doing an immense amount of fighting and specifically Woosha. Yes. Influences.

And so the action choreographer Chris Cowan and I were creating sequences where the lightsabers were used very quickly and swiftly the way they are in the prequels, right? The prequels obviously utilize an enormous amount of VFX to create the... light sabers. Those suckers, yeah. You guys, are you familiar with the... Never seen them. Have you, yeah, 1999? Yes.

Ewan McGregor? We've touched that. We've touched that. So, for our show, it was very different. I won't get too in the weeds about it, but when I went to the, the, I said, okay, I want specific lightsabers that can do that. Mm-hmm. That can be light and, and, and, uh, thought with. that that quickly.

And I also want a lightsaber that has a shodoh that you can unlock and pull out. Am I incorrect? They lost their minds. They were like, what are you talking about? Yeah. We cannot create lightsabers that are that light, that are that light weight. So that are that lightweight. My understanding.

We cannot do that. We cannot, we cannot do the lights. I also said I want the lights within, like I want it to be practical so that you can actually see the light on the. actor's faces. The Shoto was a big deal because they were like, it doesn't make sense for the handle to be that long. So these are guys, by the way, these are guys that I respect.

They are doing their job. But I did have to essentially change the way that they had been thinking about lightsabers for, you know, the Disney reboot slash television. Am I incorrect in thinking that in the 70s and 80s, they were basically using a lot of reflective tape to be able to light them and get the glow and then extensive post work to do the coloring and to actually give it the sort of power it needed, but that way there was a kind of light source and reflective off of it. And in the prequel era, it was more just sticks that were emanating no light and the light was entirely a post effect. And therefore, you could have

faster. Right. Right. Famously, you and broke a lot of the sticks. Yes. And you wanted there to actually be interplay in camera between the actors and the weapons and the light. And- And the sticks had to hit each other over and over again. Right. So these were not like, we're, you know. That is interesting. So everything, so here we go.

Yeah. All the lightsabers are much, much heavier than they can be for the actors. The first round is actors going and action choreographers going, these are too heavy. We cannot. The poor actors are like, I can't lift this, like, let alone, you know, except for many Jacinto, who was like I just I don't know what the fuck

was going on in terms of how how deeply he was able to adjust and create that character and do that much

stuff. But so, sorry, long story short, we had to essentially create lightsabers that aren't

usually lightsabers. I just, you can't say this, you can't agree with me and that's fine. You can't say anything on this.

But like a lot of the post-Disney Star Wars stuff has not had good lightsaber fighting. Agreed. Okay.

She can't agree with me. No, I agree. And part of it is because the lightsabers are so heavy. This makes it. Truthfully. Like, that's what it is.

Because, like, all of the sequel films, the lightsaber fights are very kind of, like, kind of old-fashioned medieval, like swinging these heavy fucking swords. That's exactly it. They're medieval. They're not ninja or samurai. And the characters are removed from the high republic shit.

Yeah. But the original trilogy. It's not, yeah. In original trilogy, they barely move, right? Then the Peoples Trilogy, everyone moves way too much. But it locks, but it's a lot. But there's this tough thing of, like, what exists between those two poles?

Right. Between Alec Ginnis standing planted and just swinging one time. Yes. And you and McGregor being able to do, like, back flips and, like, basically becoming devil's sex. And I want to say, like, these guys, I'm not talking, you know, shit about how they do their job. It's, and create their lifesavers. It's just they're like, this is how they're just incredible. They're just like, this is how lightsabers work.

Yeah. You know, like, and they were very, very accommodating and willing to go with what my vision was. And so I will always be grateful to them for that because I think it really overstepped what their understanding was. I just think the acolyte was the first post-Disney Star Wars thing I saw that had good lightsaber thing.

I would agree with that. Just say it. Yeah. And, you know, some of this post-Disney Star Wars stuff has not emphasized that at all, and that's fine. But other stuff, The lightsaber fighting has really bummed me out. Yeah, yeah.

And I know it's hard. It's hard. It's hard to fucking choreograph. Well, you got to like do all those types of things. You know, the actors have to, you know, I was like, we were talking before, I was not willing to do any face replacement. You know, so a lot of these people learned there, a lot of these actors learned, you know, not the wirework obviously and the, you know, but they did a lot. But it, right, you're, it's a tremendous amount of work to figure out how to solve problems that you're creating. right that's filmmaking yeah that's our job like that's exactly oh my god i've never heard if you want to do it

right if you're like it needs to be this yeah and if i'm planting my feet down and saying it's got to be this then people are circling back and going here's all the reasons that's impossible that is exactly what my job is my job is solving problems i created yeah so here's my question off of this i i think a good on ramp back into the sound of no country which i have a point to make about oh how weird is it to be sitting on set, watching extended lightsaber fights, and just hearing like, like, obviously so much of it is the sound of lightsabers, which are done in post.

And when you're there watching it and you're like, that looks great. Does it always fundamentally feel a little silly when they're just going like. Well, because what, and I, listen, I appreciate the compliment. And David and I, I'm so glad that you had that experience with it because that was my intention.

And I also think it was one of the only things that really engaged with the prequel. is in a meaningful. That's what I was like. Again, you know, thank you. I'm a fan of the accolite over here. Thank you. Thank you very much.

A lot of work went into that, David. A lot of like legends work went into that. But that's weird. I thought it was kind of. You've never seen a Star Wars movie. Well, of course I have. I haven't. I just, you know, a lot of the disappointment that I felt was that, you know,

that there wasn't enough, um, acknowledgement of that, David. If I'm being honest. Sure. You know, I just kind of thought, you know, I put a lot of. of work into this and into canon and involving like video games which by the way are canon and you know creating uh no it's a weird world it's a weird world right and the cartoons

those books aren't allowed but maybe we can bring some back yeah exactly those video games weirdly are all canon right and so there were a lot of like legend stuff that i dropped in and you know like the tracker character is an alien from that like anyway point being and we were engaging in those prequel kind of, you know, all of that. So I was a little disappointed that the show didn't get like a larger sort of, you know, what's the word? Like, pat on the back for that. You know, like, I don't think people need to like fawn over it. But it just, anyway, point being, the, because you asked me about that. I think that's how this started, is that you were asking about that. I think because the, the choreography that Chris Cowen created and then

the Sun team and then first team. was so astonishing that I very rarely was kind of thinking about it. I was just so impressed. I was just like, Jesus, this looks like the Matrix. This looks like Woosha. This looks like crouching tiger. Like this is, so it was very goofy. But then when you put the sound on top of it, it becomes magical.

Exactly. On top of something that already was impressive. Right. And the thing that I think is so impressive about the sound in no country is that it's exactly what you're saying, David, there is not this reliance in post-production to create the sound of New Mexico. Yes. You know, they are doing it right there.

I'm assuming, right? Like, the Foley is all... I want to say one final thing about Star Wars. Fine. Go ahead. Fine. That there is always this response to any modern Star Wars thing.

That's not what we want. If they could just do this, we'd all be happy. Yes. And of course, anytime that happens, there is a contingent of people who are very loud, who are equally angry. Yes.

And go, not fat, this. Yes, yeah. And I have contended with friends of mine who are Star Wars fans who will say things like that, like, I genuinely think. Yes. It is somewhat unsolvable, right? Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, I would agree with that.

But the cultural relationship to Star Wars is so intense in that way. And I think that's why it's hard for them to reach out in terms of an audience because so many people who are not Star Wars fans, you know, I would say to them like, well, before I started writing, it's like, okay, well, why are you not a Star Wars fan? And they would say, well, I just don't know enough about the stuff. Yep. And I was kind of like, God, that is so the opposite of 1977. And there is this weird battle between, is the goal here to make something for everyone?

Is the goal here to make something for people who don't think they like Star Wars? Is the goal to make something for specific subsections of fandom? Yeah. And all of it gets this weird intense response. Yeah. There has not been any ability to allow Star Wars to become a thing that can be prismatic. Yeah, I agree with that. to represent all of it at once because the magic of those original movies is like,

holy shit, it's everything all at the same time. That's exactly right. Which is impossible to replicate because it didn't exist before then. It was lightning and a bottle shit, right? And all of this exists in the wake of it. The clearest distillation of this I have ever seen. And then we will get back on to No Country for Old Man is the thing where they discovered the fucking 70 millimeter print of the original theatrical release of Star Wars.

And they were like, we didn't think this existed. And they screened it in London at the BFI and Kathleen. Kenny showed up and she was like, we've been searching for this. We're so happy and they screened it and like five different journalists wrote reviews where they were like, it looked like shit. And these are the exact people for 50 years

have been like, why won't they give us a theatrical cut? Get rid of the special editions. If they just gave us theatrical, we'd be happy. I'll confess it. This fucking sucks. There's just like dog shit. There are certain things because you'll watch those despecialized editions of you where you're like, oh, fuck that

how the X-wings look like that? I kind of got used to him looking like this. You know, there's certain things where you're like, I don't need there to be a loony tune playing out in a background with a fucking cartoon. There's stuff George undeniably improved. Right. But then there's, right, there's just some of the sort of like little bits of cleanup. You're like, oh, yeah, that kind of box.

But now that dialogue has shifted to like, what we want is someone cutting some of George's things. I'll say it. I'll say it. I always say it's just what they want is to be 12 again. That's whatever. So do I want. Yeah. So same. Same.

Here's what I'll say about the sound of no country. The other big part of this. And why allowance was like two pounds a week or whatever. I mean, when I was 12. Yeah. I don't think I was getting up to much. You know, it took five years to buy a CD-ROM. I remember doing that math.

Like, getting a catalog and being like, how much do CD-ROMs cost? Five years. Yeah. Oh, five. That's true. I'd get a fucking Anton Sugar pocketful of change every week. I was getting like two pounds. I'd say to my dad, I'd be like, isn't my allowance like four?

And he'd be like, I don't know. It's what I have on here. Yeah. The day you remember to ask, this movie has no score until the end credits. That's the other part of it. The sound stands out even more because the sound, the noises, and especially a movie that has less dialogue than their films usually have. Yeah.

The sounds are the soundtrack. But they must be augmented in some way, right? You know what I mean? Like, they're not. No, for sure. So it's orchestrated, but that's true. You know, there's no music. say magic is that he knows how to just overcrank everything just a little bit. Yes. To make it

feel hyper real. Yes. And in the vacuum of stoic characters, lack of Carter Perwell's score, that becomes even more evocative. Right. I see what you're saying. Yeah. But it is a movie where you're just like everyone walks differently. You hear and feel the differences in everyone's footsteps. Yeah. You know, And every surface they're standing on, it's just, like, incredible, incredible shit. And it's part of what makes this movie, like, eerie in such a sustained way for me. Yeah. Is, you know, I think they showed to Karah Burwell. And he's like, this doesn't need music.

Right. They were not intending it to not have a score. And he was like, I think the best thing I can do here is not do anything. Right. I'll write something for the end credits if you want, but like. Yeah, I didn't realize that. Yeah. There's a sustained tension from being like, why isn't this being?

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No country for old men. What do we want to say about it that we haven't been saying already? We've gone for two hours. You're talking about the ethnic ambiguity of Shigura as a character, right? Right. There's something in hiring a Spaniard, in a Western set in Texas, and then basically giving him like Tim Burton makeup. On top of how weird his styling is in the hair and the outfit and everything.

Yeah. And just being like, man, this guy's wearing a lot of dark colors for like brutal sun. It's very true. I'm like looking at an image on my iPad right here. And you're like, they like pancake him with paleness on top of his natural skin tone and then this like deep redness around his eyes and his lips. Oh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah. That also makes it feel like, is this guy a ghost? Like, how is he not getting sunburned? That's true. Yeah. There is this like otherworldly thing to him, which we've already talked about. But I think like in terms of the thrust of the narrative, which I think we're, you know, going to chat about now is like, hopefully.

No, but meaning, like, I think, you know, there has been this online debatey idea that Chigar is, you know, Satan is the personication, is Joe Black, you know, it's like the personication of Jeff, death. Sure. Jeff. Or Jeff. You know, you guys, please make that the title of this. Personification of Jeff. Yes. I go back and forth every time I watch this and whether I think.

he is, if not supernatural, at least explicitly kind of allegorical, or if he's actually meant to be processed as a real human being. I think the ending says human being, and I agree with you that it's allegorical. Yes, it's somehow holding both simultaneously. Like, Sugar, here's my thing. The movie begins with him getting arrested and strangling the deputy. the deputy like sits him down and like you know so right the big thing in this movie is it's like this country it's just not for old men

anymore that makes sense and it's Tommy Lee Jones basically just brushing against evil or whatever but also just brushing against a world where he's just like I don't know where to begin with this I don't know how to this isn't like crime like the sheriffs deal with where it's like hey why'd you do that to that guy

well he stole my all right well you can't do that He even shares that his grandfather and his father were both sheriffs and they used to not even wear a gun Right

Right Like that it's like you And like everything About Tommy Lee Jones's character It's like he knows everybody Right This can be reason He knows everybody

But he knows everyone's name Like you know When he's at the diner He knows the name of the waitress When he sees Llewellyn's car He's like I know this car This is Llewellyn's car I'm like bitch

He must be in charge Like a thousand acres of land Like it's like deep South Texas Like you know But nonetheless like he's whatever you know he's like basically trying to sort of like keep an eye on the community right he has the line the exchange with garret dilla hunt i think it's when they go to the first crime scene and he goes so it seems like they died of natural causes and garret dillahunt says like

there are like 40 gunshots here and he goes well natural in relation to the line of work they were in right right the idea that this guy is like not numb but it's like he's seen it all but the the great line that i think is in the trailer where like del Hunt's like, do you think he's got any notion of the sort of people who are chasing him? He's like, he ought to. He's seen the same things I have. Hey, and it's certainly made an impression on me. But this guy is increasingly going like, this is not something I understand.

There is something happening here that feels like emblematic of a cultural. Yeah, I do think we need to keep moving forward, obviously, but in the book, it's very, it's explained later on that he's a veteran. Right. So in a way, saying, like, this level of violence. I can't understand. I'm a little bit like, but you can, you know,

like, he can, but it's also something he's so haunted by. Yes. And the desertion and all of that. Right. And he's just like, and right, in the book there's this specific memory

he has of this terrible thing that happened during the war. And like, but in this, it's just like, what happened? But we don't even know, but like a drug deal

was going to happen. And something went wrong. We don't know what, right? There's a shootout that, and they all murdered each other. hunting. Leaving behind an incredible amount of drugs. Yes.

And a bag of money. A array of guns. Yes. Quite a lot of guns. Yeah. And it's one of those things that like no one is even. Nobody cares that this happened. No. That makes sense. Yes. Everyone is basically like basically some version of a cost of doing business thing. Right. You know. Natural cause.

Right. Yeah. And Llewellyn is foolish enough to try to skim the money. Yes. And but like, it's like, you don't feel. feel like Sheriff Bell is like, I'll solve this. Yeah. Right? Like he almost immediately he's basically just like, I know Llewellyn's going to die. I'm going to try and find him.

I think Brolin's first line of dialogue in the movie is he's, you know, slowly surveying this situation. He finds the dying guy. He finds the bag. He's sitting down at the tree next to this dying guy. Or no, that guy's fully dead, right? Yes. Oh, yeah.

And he opens the bag. He sees the money. He lifts his head up. And then he goes, yeah. And it's such a good piece of. writing that this guy's like, of course it's a bag of money. Roland claims that he improvised that. That rocks. That makes sense.

Good for him. And then similarly when he wakes up in the middle of the night and it's like, yeah. You know, to go get the water. This guy's kind of silently in this monoslavic conversation with himself about like, of course, I gotta do this. Of course this is what would happen. Yeah. I think as you're saying, this is the kind of thing that Tommy Lee Jones has seen before. What's

activating him isn't, I've never seen this level of violence before. It's This doesn't make sense to me. Well, I think that there's this clash internally between Shigur is killing so many people he doesn't need to kill, right? Yes. And it's like he's trying to, Tammly Jones is trying to solve this as a guy trying to clean up loose ends of a crime gone wrong.

And yet Shigur is also kind of behaving like a serial killer. Yes, he is. And it's like, if a guy is a professional, why would he be this sloppy? Yeah, right. That's sort of what is unspoken of, like, it doesn't make sense the level, nature of the violence that is unnecessary. Right. And like the Woody Harrelson character who shows up later feels like a more old school, whatever you want to call it, contract killer, fixer, whatever. Right.

Where he tries to solve the problem of being like, can you just, can we just fucking figure this out? Right. Can we be gentlemen about murder? Like, let's get over it. Yeah. Sugar seems to have some weird, you know. like, you know, code in his brain. Yes.

Because, like, why does he kill Kelly McDonald? He doesn't... Well, he said that he was going to. He claims that he told Llewellyn that he was going to. Right. But it's like, like, obviously, the money is not a problem anymore. No.

She doesn't fucking know anything. Yeah. No, and so many of the people... And, like, he has to go out of his way to do it. So many of the people he cattle guns, he doesn't need to kill them in order to get what he needs out of them. And then there are other people... They're not stopping him.

But then there are other people. But then there are other people that he lets live. Yes. And one time he flips a coin, but other times he just clearly has this moment of like, yeah, I mean, whatever. There's this woman in the hotel where he tries to get information. She's like this great, like, love her. Great character. She's like perfect.

She looks like she's like painted into the floor. You know what I mean? She's just this like, she just sort of swivels around. Like she's like a costume character and a beam park. I was going to say she's an electronic robot. Hang on that. I can't stand up. Yeah.

But she's almost... I'm not giving out information. She's almost like intimidating, like, him in this weird way. Yes. And he almost respects her. Yes, I think he fully respects her. He's like, of course, I could kill this woman, but that actually might be a problem. Did you not hear what I said? I think, too, that she's, you know, it's when, I don't know, you guys, I don't know physics.

I didn't know we were going to have to, but it's like, you know, force meets a movable object. Yes, yes. So in a way, like, scientifically, he can't continue. I mean, Gene sort of folds right away, right? He's just like, ugh, you know, and she's like, get the fuck out of here. Which, like, disarms him that Gene doesn't have more pride or defensiveness. That's true. Yeah, that's true. Shiger, we don't even know who hires him, but we assume it's one of the cartel.

Sure. And I assume the other cartel or someone else is the people who've hired the various Mexican gangsters that eventually do kill Llewellyn. Sure. Like, I don't think they're in league. Maybe they are. I have no idea. Shigur gets the money. Well, there's also the Stephen Rout, Harold,

contend they right right i don't know who they i have no clue they mentioned someone mentions like did you hire a bunch of mexican gangsters and like they're like yeah so like i guess this is like and chigur is like i am the instrument for this you know what i mean like he has and he does get the money yeah which i guess is the goal uh-huh right that's the fundamental thing that's wanted of him yes he's the only person who figures out that it's in the duct right this all happens off screen essentially but that is what happens. Which another fucking great shot of him seeing the trails in the dust, in the vent of the fingers. Yes, I love that part.

Yes, I love that. Talking for later, that's where he hides it. Oh, God. Yeah. The whole thing, like the tent poles and stuff, it's just exactly what you said. It's like you learn about the characters by what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah, that's, well, right, exactly.

He's an idiot for going back with the water. But God, that vent thing was smart. And you establish early. Practical, like, because he's like a welder, which they don't really establish him this, but like that is. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You establish earlier that Llewellyn's, or not Llewellyn, sugar is going to use the coins

for the screws on the vent so that later you can just cut to a shot of coins on a desk table. Yeah. And know what it means. Like, that's the shit in this movie that when I was 18, I was like, holy fuck a shit filmmaking where you can like build up a language where then like 40 minutes later you cut to an insert shot of inanimate object. I understood exactly what just happened in the last 20 minutes without a line of dialogue.

Oh, God. Yeah. So, right, like, Llewellyn, he's kind of stupid for going back with the... He's stupid to take the money, too, I would say. He doesn't really... Opportunity knocks. I know, but he takes the bag and he doesn't think that hard about it.

He probably should search the bag or get the money out of the bag and put it in something else. Or dump it out, make it rain. It's like, there's like... there's like 20 dead people there's not like two dead people no there's a lot there's so many vehicles and so he like clearly he's kind of overwhelmed by

which I would be too he's like I'm just gonna go home and maybe like you know fuck my wife but also not fuck my wife make a joke about fucking my wife I think he fucks her I think he definitely fucks her interesting I also think I mean her face I think says it all at the she's like you know got that little smile

But I view that as her being disappointed that he's not going to follow through on what he's saying. I think he's going to follow. We're moving on. I think unlike a lot of Cohen idiots who get in over their head and refuse to acknowledge it, right? He's constantly feeling the pressure of, am I in too deep, right? Yeah. Versus these guys who are just like, I'm going to get this, right? I'm going to make this all work.

And it also is a guy lives in a trailer, but he is not set up. up with a pressure like, say, fucking William H. Macy and Fargo where it's like, this guy needs the money now. Right. He could still live like this. Right. It's the sense of opportunity, but it's not a like, I can't turn this down.

Yeah. Or at least that is not explicitly said to us, which also makes it this game for him of like, is this worth the squeeze? I actually didn't realize like how similar he is to other until you just said that. Like, even Labowski. It's like I'm getting pulled into a thing.

I don't know. Yep. I just wanted my rug back. Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think they love when it's a confident moron, which he isn't quite. He's like not the smartest guy, but he's smarter than a lot of their protagonists. And he also is more scared than a lot of their protagonists, right? Even though he is a fairly stoic man, you're feeling the tension of him in his situation.

not knowing if he's going to be able to pull this off. When they sick... He doesn't pull it off, by the way. He dies. Yeah, by the way, just spoiler. He does. When they sick the dog on him and he's swimming through the thing and then he shoots him, that was the kind of what you were saying about the tracks being... That was the moment for me.

Yes. Where I was like, masterful. Like, as the sun's coming up, all of that is timed so that by the time he shoots the dog. Yes. Yeah, it's just like exquisite. Unload the final bullet. Get fucking loaded. Beckel, I guess, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Beautiful. You saying that, TLJ's character is coded as a veteran, it's also interesting that Brolin is as well, but in, like, wildly different wars. Yeah. Roland served in NOM, TLJ served in World War II. Right. So they both have a certain mentality and instincts and resources

that come out of that experience, but in, like, wildly different situations that would have formed their role. Tommy Lee Jones. So part of a, quote-unquote, righteous war that, like, fought against evil. And Josh Brulman was like, I was sent to a terrible place where I suffered, which is, you know, the experience. Right. Now, I'm in a trailer.

Right. Yes. Right. And, you know, I came back and everyone thought that sucked. I mean, there's a moment, obviously, where he has the bond with the other non veteran who, like, lets him go through because he's like. Oh, great scene. Who doesn't want to let him through because he's worried he's a Mexican. Right.

And then he's basically able to flash the nom thing. Yeah. Which I could do that. In the book, he says. Just in a cool movie way. And the book, he says, you can't go to war like that about Vietnam. You can't go to war without God. I don't know what is going to happen when the next one comes.

I surely don't. It's a guy who just quietly is sort of like, world doesn't really make sense. And I kind of got a shitty hand without being self-pitying. Yeah. Which is why I think he sees a bag of money. And it's like, not don't I deserve this. No, yeah. But like, is there any reason for me not to try it?

Um, right. Right. And even knowing the inherent risk. That's the Ben feeling. Yeah. I don't know. Give it a whirl. Give it. Why not? But I would, of course. No, we live once.

And then he end up dead. Yeah, he does die. I'm so sorry. Here's the money back. That's what you would say. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm really, really sorry. I wanted the money because there's so much money. And it's all in just one little bag.

Yeah. And it's a hundred dollar bills. I so wanted it so desperately. So I could use it to buy things and such. Perhaps you understand. I like goods and services. I said some sugar is like, let me just, I'll just screw my little like, that's what's scary about. My oxygen tank. And I'm like, you see, the money, you can buy food, toys, clothes.

I mean, there's so many things. The way sugar is set up from the beginning of the movie, you're like giving him the money back wouldn't solve anything. Yeah, it wouldn't. And you already know that. And it's not even Carson money. Here is a man who you could not buy off for any amount, right? You couldn't say to him like, hey, I'll give you the money back plus $10 million. What do you tries?

He's like, wouldn't you rather just we split it rather than whatever they're paying you? Right. And he's like, that's not. how I like to live my life. Yeah, he's like, nah, it's not going to happen. What I like to do is have the biggest silencer you ever saw and put it on a fucking shotgun. Yeah. Right.

The silencer with the shotgun is also like a great story because not unlike the Star Wars, the lightsaber story, it's like you have to create that. Right. You know, there are like silencers for shotguns like it's fucking hanging out. Yes. But it rocks. My favorite, my favorite kill in the movie is. is shooting the guy behind the shower curtain.

I just like shooting someone where it's such a fucking big gun that like it's like poof, you know, like the shower curtain goes like, whoop. Yeah. But also the cattle gun's kind of ingenious because the first couple scenes they survey, they're just like, what do you mean

there's no bullet, right? Right. There's this bizarreness that they start to figure out through like the damage created in other spaces of like, oh, it is kind of a perfect weapon. He also never uses it on screen. He used it once, the guy at the start.

The very beginning. Yeah, no, no, that's what I mean. But, yeah, besides that guy. The only issue with it is that you have to. But it's hanging over the movie the whole time. He's carrying it most. You got to carry around this fucking thing. Right, right, right.

I mean, look, he's a bit extra not to drag him. I mean, like, for example, when he needs to get some bandages, he explodes an entire car to distract people. Sure. Like, I know, he's stealing from the pharmacy. Oh, I understand. I just feel like there's other ways to approach that of, like, maybe I'll steal some money or maybe I'll like you know what I mean he's like blow up this car

but isn't that what's kind of breaking Tommy Lee Jones is like I don't understand when this guy is using a scalpel and when he's using a machete because he does both sometimes it feels so strategic and thoughtful and sometimes it is so fucking messy he is perhaps just a messy bitch who lives through the drama he's actually that's what he is and he is having a brat summer he is having a bad summer Can we talk about the milk? Yeah He goes to Llewellyn's trailer

He blows the bloody bolt off You know thunk Walks around Nothing in there sits down Jug of milk In case you weren't sure He was a psycho Another great deacon shot

Yes He sits there with the jug of milk He's sitting motionless He hasn't even taken a sip yet And then it cuts to the reverse shot Which is his reflection in the television And then we see it again with Tommy Lee Jones. Yes. And it is

an interesting moment where like Sheriff Bell is clearly like, he looked at himself in this mirror. Like, you know, he's putting himself in the shoes of the guy. Yeah. And he's just kind of like, I wonder, you know, like, it's just... In that sugar moment, you're like, what is he doing? Why is he just sitting here with a jug of milk, not watching TV? I think his brain just going

himself. You know? Yeah. I think he's just rebooting. Yeah. It does feel like. Like, what's the next target? Yes. But like they just, I think they just wisely avoid the Terminator thing. Yeah. There's moments like him blowing up the car with, you know, walking with the explosion behind him. Like, right, he's like a robot.

But not always, and he's not a destructible. They throw it off the hump with his look. They're always finding ways to stop him from feeling, yes, completely T-800. Yeah. And he's not invulnerable, as you said. Here's my take. You just give me a crack at the Terminator franchise. Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to use Terminator 2 as my jumping off.

Well, we'll make a sequel to that one. I know we are talking about how it's hard to please Star Wars fans. But Terminator, I think we can, if we've, You can figure it out. He can figure it out. In Arrested Development, talking about non-monogamy where he's like,

it really, wait, it could work for, I'm just like, the sixth time. Guys, if we just commit to not leaving this room for 45 minutes,

I think we can walk out of here. It's 45 and we're done. And we're done. Here's my take. Arnie's in it. We'll figure out how. Okay, that sounds good.

Here's a bag of money. And there'll be a new Terminator. And what will his vibe be? I don't know. He's bugs or something. We'll figure that out later. His vibe is something other.

than Arnold. Has anyone done liquid? Oh, no, yeah, somebody did that one. What if he's a gas terminator? No one's done gas. Who's playing John Connor? Someone. Who's an okay actor

who nobody really cares about? Let's get that guy. Ryan Phillipie. God, I was... Talk about someone zero people would be excited about. What did I just watch? Oh, I know what you did last summer.

I died. God, he was a fucking philip. back then he is a piece of meat but also that movie is Oh he's an asshole Want to meet the most repellent thing You've ever seen those But then he gets eaten by crabs

Yeah Great stuff You have not seen the new one right I have not It is funny how they're just like We're just not even gonna invoke him Basically oh yeah he doesn't come up No it's like Prince and

Love Hewitt are in it Right And Geller is like very much part of I have Is Prince still a fisherman My favorite thing about those two movies is that Freddie Prince Jr. plays a working fisherman in those movies. Okay, mild spoilers.

He's like, I got to go fish. I'm like, you've never, you don't know what a fish is. Mild spoilers? He owns a like fisherman's bar. Okay. I think it is implied that he still fishes, but the primary business seems to be. That is so good to know for canon. Yes.

Yeah. He still has a boat. He still seems to fish. Good, good. But it feels like the town has become very touristy and he now runs like the local's bar that has the fishing ephemera in it and the billy blue's side of the boat is hung up above the bar prince just grace looks pretty fucking fantastic he's aged really nicely he has aged beautifully yeah there was a look like watching it and i'm like

the prince have like a brolin moment he's not like an actor he's not that good and yet i was watching it and i was like someone could cast him really well yeah he kind of works in this But Cohen, brother. He's an iconic Star Wars character. Yes. He's, um, Canaan Jaris. Yeah. He's, he's very good in that show.

Okay. He's a good voice, he has a really, sorry, we'll go off this in a second. But the, uh, there's that video of him, David, um, talking about Star Wars. Talking about Star Wars. He loves Star Wars, right? He has a really great take on it. I'm not, I, he was fun on one of the Mass Effect games, too. He's a good voice, Hector.

What were you going to say, Ben? I have a question about the motel where he hides. It's just this. is like no country for old men, you know, Ben? Yeah, that's what the movie's about. Oh, sure. Okay, the motel where he hides it in a duct and then he rents another room that's like connected to the duct.

But he gets found out, right? Yes. Because he sees that the curtain has been moved. Right. I'm assuming that's the Mexican. Yes. Whoever's looking for. Right.

Like the other party trying to track him down. Do they have the device or are they just figuring out that he's there? That's a good question. I've never been able to, like, determine... Because Shigur obviously has the receiver. Right. For the track. Oh, right, right.

Right. I don't think they would have one as well. They may be tracking Shigur. They might be following his trail. Yeah. I mean, is the scene with the suits... The scene with the suits is after that or just meaning, I wonder if that answers your question. Because if he's...

I think it is. I think we see suits Before that Suits have a tracker I wonder if Mexicans also have a Oh sure Because they're two separate I think there's some dialogue that alludes to this

Yeah But they also could have talked to That another great Just random character The woman that runs that motel Maybe they went in and talked to her As anyone got in a room Kind of thing

Sure Yeah it could be that simple There's the moment when he's doing the air duct trick for the first time. Yes. And he's sitting in the room with the gun loaded, waiting for him, with the lights off, right? And he sees the shadow of the footsteps underneath. He's hearing it and he's seeing it and he's seeing him continue to walk. But before that moment, when he's hearing the steps off into the distance, he calls.

You're like, why the fuck is he picking up the phone? he calls the front desk hears the deadline and then hangs up and it's just like the guy's smart enough to know I've studied this guy's behavior he's killing the woman

at the front desk if he's already here she's dead right yeah there's just stuff like that I love I love it too I feel like he hasn't

encountered sugar at that point so there is this like anticipation too with the audience of like here we go right here we go They never They shoot at each other

But they don't really interact It's after that scene is right Yes But they're always quite far from each other They talk on the phone though Yep And then after he talks to Sugar He talks to Harrelson

And he's like you talk too much Yeah Which is kind of funny But yeah He does and Sugar does not get him I mean it's just so funny I'm sorry to keep hitting that point We just don't get that weird satisfaction

We don't get the different feet of sugar, obviously. It is a great, um, shoot out, man. It is. And really too smart, you know, for all of his stupidity, he is a smart guy when he's driving that truck and he's watching the bullet holes and the, you know, he's using the, the rearview mirror and everything. Yeah.

Yes. And just the way they build the tension with the increasing amount of bullet holes around him, but you can never quite track where sugar is. You can track the trajectory of the gun. Yeah. But you're never, like, seeing him, you know? You don't get into his... I think if I'm remembering correctly, you don't really get into his POV.

I don't think so. And so, therefore, it is also a subversion of a hero versus villain. Because usually you'd pop over to villain and then you pop over to here, you know. Instead, Llewellyn dies and Sugar sort of, you know, completes his mission and moves on wounded. And then Tom Bell sits down with his dad. I believe so. Played by the great Barry Corvin

who is an actor I mostly think of as playing like Yehaw, Texas guys in TV. It's great on Northern Exposure. But like he would just like, he was the guy who could swing in

wearing a cowboy hat and her TV show being like, wow, from Texas, you know, and he's good at it. It's short hand. And in this he's like pretty, you know, like calm and quiet.

Beaten down. And awesome. Yeah. And then Tom just tells his wife about some stories, some dreams he had. And then he woke up and it cuts to black. And I just remember my audience being like, what? What the fuck are you talking? That's it?

Right. They're already... I didn't even know he was done. He's done talking? When Llewellyn dies, it feels like, okay, so I guess I was wrong, but the movie is building to a showdown between Tommy Lee Jones and Bardem, right? Right, right, right. And then you're like, no, it's ending on the guy's dream.

And it feels like he's sort of like hanging. mid-sentence. Tess Harper, who is so goodness. Yeah. With just a few moments from Tender Mercy's one of my favorite movies.

And they also off-screen do a lot of hand stuff, I will say, in the film. I have no doubt they're fucking. They have a very happy physical. They've got a great, oh, my God. They've got a great relationship.

Yes. I just love it that she's like, oh, great dream. Want to do some hand stuff? So when you're saying the masterpiece personal question, right? And part of it is, is that it, when you're posing that, and part of it is that this is something they don't

originate, it is something they are assigned to, it is something they connect with. And yeah, like I said, because, you know, so much of the dialogue is Cormac McCarthy and not them, it does feel like this is the, this is the film of just, you know, we are master filmmakers. Right. And it's just like skillful interpretation of someone else's voice. I do think this movie kind of in a sparseness and in a way they maybe couldn't do if they were writing it themselves from scratch identifies some key through line in their worldview that certainly is reflected in all their films and when people especially the early parts of their career would

attack them for being kind of like nasty cynical just like setting up idiots to be punished you know in like a cool and kind of merciless world yeah i i i do think there is this thing of like are they just nihilist does none of this matter to them they make these movies that are touching on this kind of darkness and i do think this movie is kind of their retort there's a reason why i think fargo if not their masterpiece is their definitive film because it is the ultimate balancing of everything they do right yes yeah but part of what makes fargo so um uh powerful is that they're placing this like undeniable figure of good at the center of it who is cutting

through this stuff. And Ed sort of is that, but he's so, so tired. Right. And he's not going to fix it. Marge is someone whose life lies ahead of her. She's about to have a child. There's a new exciting chapter that's unfolding. He just got the stamp, right? Yes. There's all this

sort of shit and she is sort of like comically good. The movie has that likeness of even as, even as darkets moments, it's funny. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would agree. Her goodness is funny. Yeah. And so it is, if not obscuring their real feelings, I think it was adding to this sense of, are they just playing with toys, right?

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How much of this is just like genre riffs for them. It's just them, yes, yeah. In them doing this strip down, like, subversive kind of genre deconstruction. Right. They're doing a more focused version of the kind of thing. at the center of Fargo.

That's something I think that I've learned in doing this with you guys. They're re-expressing something. They're re-expressing something and they're doing, yes, the pinnacle of what they do. Right. And because they can't rely on witty dialogue. Yes.

And, you know, like you said, a character like Marge that will just like cut through all the bullshit. Yeah, I would say, I would go so far as to say it's a masterpiece because, If I use the criteria of the ending of the movie, it did leave me like, you know, Mulholl and Driver, Zodiac, where I was like, wow. It is also kind of twinned with the ending of Fargo that also comes back to a couple having a conversation.

Yes, yeah. Right? In their comfortable domesticity. Yeah. But for him, it's like this moment of extreme vulnerability. It feels like, like, Tommy Lee Jones is transparent in this final scene. He's incredible. There is an understated sense of deep sadness and him feeling unmoored and vulnerability in him even sharing this with her.

That the scariest thing he could do is ever share his abstract thoughts. Yes. That he has not been able to untangle yet, even to the person closest in his life, in what seems to be a very healthy marriage, right? Absolutely. And it's sort of this sense of like, unlike Fargo, this is not a universe in which Marge is able to. stop. Yes, yeah. Evil, right? Obviously, as she puts it all that for a little bit of money, she didn't stop it in time. A lot of damage was done. Was done. Many people died. But ultimately, like,

there was some sense of justice at some point. Yes, yeah. And she gets to look at Peter Stormera at the back of the car and say, and for what, a little bit of money. She at least hopes that that stays in his head. Versus here, the fact that the three people never meet, you kind of come back to Tommy Lee Jones being like, to what end? Yeah, and you're right. The villain, you know, Stormar in Fargo is kind of the prototype for Sugar. You're right. Because, you know, just, you know, Terminator-esque has his own code.

It's not really even about the trajectory of what he's planned to do. But then in that film, he gets, you know, his kebap, comeuppance or whatever. And in this film, you know, you just, you don't know the fate of this guy. Right. And in the dreams that Tommy Lee Jones is having, I think he's trying to reckon with these cycles of the stories we tell ourselves of like lawmen and bad guys in a kind of idea of an American West where these things can balance themselves out. And he's just sort of like, are we moving into a realm where for better or worse, we don't fit into the model anymore? and then who am I? Yeah. I think what's interesting, like, in terms of the thesis of the movie and sort of, I think

what you take away from you, from it at the end, is that, you know, that all the characters sort of get this, like, you know, meh, you know, like, who knows? You know, he, you know, Alan's dead. But I also heard that from somewhere that Tommy Lee Jones. did that in one take and only did, you know, one of them and that he also did the fugitive

sort of famous, you know, after the train crash speech, also in one take. I mean, I'd say. If this is take one, I think I go, yeah, we don't need enough. Yeah, we don't need to do this again. We get it. Like, he's just, he's totally embodied the character and therefore the

I almost said lyrics, but the dialogue is just speaking it, you know. Yeah. And the final shot his face to me is so heartbreaking where he he looks so worried at how she is going to respond and what she thinks about what he just said yeah i think that um yeah sorry it was like i had the weirdest dream like i was in class and i had to take a test and then i wasn't wearing any clothes and then my teeth fell out she's like it has pretty standard textbook stuff you're worried about aging yeah i had the weirdest nightmare donald trump became president Fantasy.

Don't bad mouth, David's Guy. This film, I'm just moving us along. Premiered at the Cannes Film Festival in 2007. I'm noting that only because it's an insane can because no country for old men is there. Zodiac is there. Stephen Frears and all his wisdom and his jury gave both of those films zero awards. Why did I think No Country One Director? Because the Coins have one director.

But not for that one. For that one, they won Bup Kiss. And it's like four months, three weeks, two days won the Palm. That's a good movie. That's obviously a very, like, powerful festival film. Like, it's grueling and insane. Yeah, for a Zodiac, yeah. And it is an excellent, impossible to imagine watching a second time movie.

But if you see it at a festival out of nowhere, it hits you like a ton of bricks. But it is a little rude that it just went over like, it got well received. The critics liked it there. but it didn't win anything. Paramount Vantage wanted to film release this in August, which is fucking crazy. They were going off of the success

in the previous year of the Constant Gardner, which of course did win an Oscar. We've talked about this sort of like August sort of Labor Day-esque like focus features adult thriller slot where you could have like kind of a modest counter-programmer success. Yes, that's true.

But this movie is not quite bad. Right. The Coens, perhaps wisely, felt strongly about releasing this film in the fall. Came out in November and was the biggest hit of the moment. True Grid eclipses it, but it made 74 million domestic and 171 worldwide. And it won Best Picture at the Academy Awards. I don't know if you know. Director, screenplay, supporting actor.

That's right. It lost for sound editing, sound mixing, cinematography, and editing. I watched the three speeches this morning. Their speeches. Joel tells the story that's very funny about... Or no, for screenplay, he says the Kornick-McCarthier and Homer thing, right? Yeah. And then Ethan gets up and he goes like, I...

Thank you. And he walks off stage. And then when they win Best Director, Joel tells the story about them growing up making movies together and how it feels crazy that their life doesn't feel different from when they were. And they're like, we're happy you let us play in this little sandbox. Thank you for letting us have our corner of the sandbox. And then Ethan gets up and goes, I think, uh, no. Basically said everything I needed to say last time.

Thank you. It's a perfect bit. And then, of course, when they win Best Picture, they say nothing. Scott Rood and Hawks the Empire. Gets on his head and revolves around or whatever. Yeah. Scott Rood and first cheese strings from the stage. This film, Griffin, came out November 9, 2007.

Yeah. Limited, so it's opening number 15, a robust $43,000 screen average, though. Number one at the box office is sort of the no country for old man of animated films, though. In its second week at the box office, I'm joking. It is called B movie? That's right. It's Jerry Seinfeld's a B movie. Now, have you seen B movie?

I have not. He's a B. It's kind of a movie about an old man who doesn't understand it is no longer his country. My God. That's sort of slowly what Jerry Seinfeld's last 25 years of an event. Oh, my God. I'm just imagining. Yes, exactly.

Yes. Yeah. I'm just imagining the last scene of no country with Jerry Seinfeld and his wife. This country. That's for old man. Just very quietly going, what's the deal? That's pretty good. With an old man.

Number two at the box office is a film that I think was widely tipped as a major Oscar player. American gangster? Right. Did well. Yeah. Is not bad, but certainly underwhelmed on that front. Got only the one nomination for Ruby D? I think it might have gotten like a costume.

Not, but yes, essentially. But not a bad movie. Not a bad movie. Pretty rewatchable. It was just on paper you were like, this is going to be the greatest shit of all time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, also, it's the year after the departed, so it makes sense.

Yeah. It was. Number three at the box office, new this week. I think very unhappy for the studio that this is opening number three. Okay. It's a comedy. High Concept Comedy. November 2007.

What studio released this picture? Warner Bros. Warner Bros. It is not Fred Claus, is it? It is, unfortunately. Vince Vaughn's Fred Claus. One of the most repellent films I've ever seen. A film that actually embodies pure evil.

Right. Now, I remember, of course, this is when I was an intern of People magazine, because I covered the B-movie Red Carpet in London. I worked in London. I covered the Red Carver for this film. I've talked about it a lot on this podcast over the years. This is a huge flop. Yes.

Opening new at number four. drama serious drama oh oh oh you're saying this movie yes i did not cover the red carpet uh uh for fred claus i did for the kingdom but that's not what we're talking about but this is lions for lambs where it's just like everyone's in a room going like but the war is it good

we don't know yes i've never seen lines for lambs i cover the red carpet that is the fundamental yes or no question of our time uh no is that thing of like um tom cruise Merrill Streep, Robert Redford. The Cruz implosion. Summer Redstone says we're ending our deal with him at Paramount. And then the big, buzzy announcement is United Artists is being handed over to Tom Cruise.

It is going to be his studio. He gets to make what he wants. And the first move was, I'm going to play supporting in a Robert Redford talkie drama. And it felt like, is he, is this the next phase of his career? Right. Is he not interested in being like action star movie star anymore? Yeah. And right after this, he pivots so far away from that.

And this is like the couch jumping era. It's right after. The immediate post-couch jump. Everyone's a little sick of time. How do I reset? And then his second UA movie is Falkyri, where he finds McCarrey, and that sets the next 20 years of his career. Number five of the box office, Griffin, is a film that matters very much to you and I. Not as a film, but is a thing we used to say to each other.

It's a thing we used to say to each other. That's a thing we used to say to each other. And you would say it to a lot of people. A line from this film. Put it on my tab? Put it on my tab. What's the film called? It is one of the great breakfast starch movie posters of all time.

That's right. It is called Dan in Real Life. The Steve Carrell film. Dan in Real Life. Have you seen it, Leslie. I have not. I have not. It's got one of the most weirdly photoshop posters of all time. That I know the poster.

Of his face. You all know the post. Like a pancake. Nothing close to that happens in the film. Oh, really? No, he doesn't sleep on pancakes. But it was clearly like a kind of like sub kind of Casdeny attempt at a dromedy that then they were like, how do we sell this to look more like 40-year-old version?

Oh, right. What can be wacky happening in relation to his face? Yeah, yeah. A stack of pancakes. Put it on my pet. Number six of the box office is Saw 4. Okay. Number, that's the one that starts with his autopsy, I believe.

Okay. Maybe, I think of it. No, he does. Where they're like, he's dead. Number five, seven is the film The Game Plan. Now, what's that one? That is the Rock is a football player who finds out he had a daughter. And she likes, like, ballet. And he's like, what's the game plan?

Or whatever. That's the era where he's like, I am solely family movie star. And he does that tooth fairy and escape to Rich Mountain in a row. And then was like, never mind. Never mind. Fuck this. Yeah. Now I'm ready to the box office is the like sort of okay three.

Thriller 30 Days of Night, The Vampire Movie With Josh Hartman Yeah, David Slade Yeah, I've never seen it Number 9 is something that I do not remember what this is.

P2, the fuck is that? That was a West Bentley evil parking attendant. I don't know how you know this. Broken brain. How do you know what P2 is... We've all parked. We've all parked.

We've all parked in a parking lot. But what if... What if it was evil? I think it's Rachel Nichols and West Bentley? You are correct. And I... It was one of those...

was distributors that only existed for like 18 months. Who are you? It was distributed, of course. Well, it was distributed by Summit Entertainment. So they... Oh, okay. So maybe it was early summit. Yeah. But it was Alexander Aha. He didn't direct it. He produced

it and he found like one of his freaks to direct it. I would not direct the parking movie. I assume that's what he sounds like. Number 10 at the box office is the Martian child. What is that again? Is John Cusack? John Cusack. And he's like, what if my child was Martian?

When you hear like all the log lines, just diminishing returns of like, you know, we're going down to 10 and it's just like, my God. I think it's basically the movie is like, help my son is K-Pax. I have watched this movie on a plane, but it's basically I think like KSak being like, I don't know, the kid thinks he's a Martian. And then someone plays the therapist who's trying to get through the kid. I want to say it has a maybe vaguely tasteless twist, but I'm like. be misremembering that. I think it is one of the rare movies, though, where John and Joan play siblings,

if I am not mistaken. That's why I got to say about the Martian child. I don't know what to tell you. That's it. Leslie. Thank you, guys. Pleasures all. Thank you.

Three for three. I mean, really, that is, those, wow. Yeah, and once again, we cannot oversell how much dog shit we're going to sell you with next time. Yeah, you have to. So bad. There's no way.

It's going to be the stinkiest shit. we've ever covered on this show. Yeah. Yeah. But you guys have been really lovely in terms of essentially offering me or letting me pick like really incredible. Of course. That's what we Oh, we heard you like Zodiac. Yeah. You know, and then David texted me and was like... That was the

weird thing also where it was like nobody was going for Zodiac, which is odd because it's like So incredible. We raised like the flag to friends and we're like Who like Zodiac? Why can't we find anybody? Yeah. I I think, like, no country is just, you know, it's just an astonishing movie. Yeah.

So, like, those three, I just am like, Jesus Christ, I feel really lucky. You did great. And I did. It felt like the pinnacle of their career to me at this time. And yet, I think the run that comes right after it is sort of the kind of stuff you can only do when emboldened with this level of success. Yeah. It's fertile stuff. It's a blank check.

They had quite a blank check run right after this. Leslie, are you doing good? Yeah, I'm doing okay. You're about to go on vacation. I'm about to go on vacation. And by vacation, I mean, I'm not going to be with my wife and my child. As a parent, I understand. I understand.

No, I'm okay. I'm good. I'm good. I'm actually sort of not doing anything right now, which is really lovely. That's great. I feel like I last saw you right before my twins were born. Yes, that's true. beginning to spool up on on cult of love or what you know like you had stuff on your plate or whatever yeah

it was like about to to start rehearsals right yeah it was like I feel like actually had just come out and you were starting and then like since then we will text once a month it's like we should really hang out and I'm like I'm so sleepy yeah but that's really when I just wave and I'm like I got no kids over here you guys tell me when and where I mean I'm so tired that I'm not even playing like night rain with my RPG group you know like I mean we're just like we started and then everybody was like what happened to you? And I was like, I, I just, I can't even bring myself to play a video game. I'm so tired.

I started the Donkey Kong game, which is four children. And I was like, this is kind of overwhelming. Yeah. This is a lot for me right now. Yeah. But yeah, that would, I, let's hang out. That sums it up. And obviously, you know, everyone should be hanging.

And also, Ben. But yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was wonderful to watch the movie. No, of course. A phenomenal film. Kind of an easy movie to talk about in a weird way where you're just like,

who am I to say anything bad about this movie? Like, it all works. Yeah, you just kind of like roll through it. It's like absolutely brilliant. Not in like an uncomplicated way. There's complicated stuff to think about, but it's just kind of like, I'm not really fault in anything here.

One thing that I was going to say very quickly was the one thing that I love about the novel and the film is that, you know, then Seventh Seal, it's like, I'm playing chess with death. And I just love that this movie is like, it's a coin time. Yeah. There's no game to win. It's a kind of time. I think we also have to mention that this is a dry movie. Well, that's true, Ben. Thank God we said that. Although he does go in the water at one point to get away from the people. And it looks refreshing. I know. Because it's so hot. When he goes in there, I'm like, man, that's what I would be doing all the time. But to back up Ben's point here, it's a movie so dry that the greatest mistake its lead character makes is going by the pool is getting a jug of water. and going by the pool. And getting a drug of water. Yeah. The water. I was

kind of shocked you didn't have water, by the way. I'm like, you're out here, like, hunting in the desert. You have, like, a fucking bottle of water. Like, you served in the Army. Like, this guy is a fucking morrow. It's a friggin' dry movie. You're right then. Thank you all for listening.

Thank you, guys. Please remember to rate review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Burn After Reading. Right. Just a really funny follow-up movie. Yeah, we'll have that figure out of that figure out. We'll see. It's been an interesting.

It's been like the crow remake in terms of the number of different names. The person, the standing name right now is why. We cannot say it. We can't say it. We can't tell you after. We'll see it. Yeah, don't say it. What happens.

I'll see you guys for the next masterpiece. Yeah, absolutely. Penny Marshall's riding cars with boys. I'm gay. David's taking a photo of what? Of the runtime? Run time. Someone asked me how long this episode was.

Okay. Because it's not four. We came in. No, we didn't go four. A respectful three. A respectful three. Lastly, I don't know how you put up with us. I'm obsessed with this.

This was actually like my, my, it's my happy place. I love talking with you guys. And I even said, I was like, I just am so happy that I get to do something that I love. And I'm not like, and it's during a time when I'm not also like under deadline. It's kind of like a chill vibe. And as always, I'm going to promise you that next time you're going to get the worst fucking movie ever. Dog shit. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims.

Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our associate producer is A.J. McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by A.J. McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. artwork by Joe Bowen,

Olly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon,

blank check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank CheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created

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