Blank Check with Griffin & David - Oldboy with Alison Willmore

Episode Date: July 9, 2023

What is an Oldboy? How do you feel about Greek Tragedies? How did Choi Min-Sik achieve that iconic (and insane) hairstyle? Was giving the 2004 Palme d’Or to FAHRENHEIT 9/11 over this film one of the greatest mistakes in the history of arts and culture? All those questions answered and more as critic Alison Willmore joins us to talk about OLDBOY, the first major Korean breakthrough in the American filmbro canon.  Guest Links:  Read Alison's writing at New York Magazine Especially “Theory: Top Gun: Maverick Is (Mostly) a Death Dream” if you haven’t already Follow Alison’s dog on Instagram This episode is sponsored by:  Indeed (indeed.com/blank) MUBI (mubi.com/blankcheck) Nuts.com (Nuts.com/check) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

If they had told me this podcast was going to be 15 years long, would it have been easier to endure? That's funny. Thank you. This episode is going to be 15 years long. I'm calling it right now. Yes, we have to do the kind of experiential. No.

People love it when we do. No. Remember in the Prestige episode? We can check in with this guest. When my twin subbed in for a second. Oh, yeah. I definitely remember that. Well executed. Seven years ago. It would let me bring a hammer, which is

so disappointing. We're trying all these things here. We're trying to get an inception. We did podcasts in a podcast. 127 hours. We were 127 hours long, and that worked out really well. And so I'm saying, let's just do... As long as we can get out really well. And so I'm saying let's just do... As long as we can get dumplings. Yes.

Oh, yeah, right. We will have dumplings delivered every day. That would be nice. Yeah. No, we can check in 15 years later, though, like Richard Linklater style. So what's that? Let me do the math.

2038. Oh. Oh, yeah. So we'll meet back here. Yeah. 2030. Or like the Wet Hot American summer. Right, right. So we'll meet back here. Yeah. Or like the Wet Hot American summer. Right. I'm busy that morning, but afternoon I could do.

So rather than do a 15 year long podcast, we do a podcast. Then 15 years later, we come back to and go pretty good. Pretty good app. What are you doing? David's his new favorite bit of prop comedy. Playing with the big tape measure. He likes the big tape measure. This is set up in a later episode.

Okay. All right. That's a tease. This is a terrible beginning to a big episode about a big movie from our big director. 15-year-long podcast. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David.

It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. It's a miniseries on the films of Park Chan-wook. And it's called I Am A Podcast But That's Okay. That's right. That's right, jerks. It's not called Podboy.

No. You keep calling them jerks. We put the poll up on Twitter Yeah, and we said fuck you Europeans And they voted against this And we asked for them to choose We decided against their choice Yeah, we're teaching them a lesson

They chose Sympathy for Mr. Podcast And we decided that was boring And we had no sympathy for them, fuck off Today we're talking about Oldboy, his most famous film Is that still true probably i think it has to be the handmaiden probably the only challenger i would say i don't think handmaiden comes anywhere close to this in terms of legacy i agree i agree yeah i and that's my favorite of his film but i just think he will kind of always be the old boy guy and this was a

film that changed things yes that's hard to make one of those. Yeah. And it's also like so much of its era. I feel like it was a kind of era defining. Right. Yes, it is.

This is sort of like the graduate for like modern South Korean cinema. You know, where you're like, well, that's like an inflection point. I think it's just also

a big movie for extreme cinema. Yes. In general. Yes. Like, or Western audiences being exposed for extreme cinema yes in general yes like like or western audiences being exposed to extreme cinema that's the thing i think this movie crossed over more than than most films of the 2000s did uh into the united states most films of the you mean like like like foreign foreign language films yeah not immediately but i just think this movie just

kept fucking growing and also like introduced people i think it was people's introduction a lot of people to south korean cinema as an idea what's going on here and like and especially like then it kind of the whole scene got associated right being like gnarly extreme stuff absolutely yeah that is all true it's like like did it make a lot of money in america like in theaters not at all no no i feel like it was huge on dvd exactly it just had this kind of like long reputation or like like college kids or whatever you know all that yeah you were in the know if you were like a suburban you know a suburban teen who became a college kid like you would show off your sophistication with like well old boy also so much of you know the the fact that this movie is so fucked up it is though no it is i'm not saying it i'm not no no no i'm not right no but we were kind of like that

in 2005 i feel like and now i'm watching it i'm like good lord this is so fucked up I think this movie's legacy for a while was like someone has the DVD in their dorm room and they're like have you fucking seen this like people want to show it to friends to see their reaction to it in a way that was more of a like VHS era horror thing I think where it's like oh have you never seen

Cannibal Holocaust I gotta show you this fucked up thing right and then you could kind of progress from there if like Oldboy was like the entry level and then you could get into like flowers of flesh and blood and like all that kind of like the stuff that was like even more esoteric right the tartan extreme era thank you that's the big i tried so hard yeah so hard to get a job at tartan oh oh to get a job doing when i was right out of college yes it was like my number one like i want to work at Tartan. Doing what?

Like marketing or like whatever. Just anything. You were like, just take me in. Entry level job. I had an interview there. And I think, you know, they appreciated my enthusiasm. And eventually we're just sort of like, this kid has no work experience. Like, really?

Can we just say that Extreme was a masterstroke. For those who don't know, Tart home media company but they started putting out certain titles under the tartan extreme label and i feel like old boy having that tartan extreme and big letters on top made people go what so what else right yeah and then it was sort of like anything else with the tartan extreme on top was like well well, maybe it's like Oldboy. And I do think that branding alone being tied to this movie exposed a lot of people to a lot of films they wouldn't

have watched otherwise. 100%. And very, very cool. And obviously they did Battle Royale as well, which I feel like is the other early 2000s piece of Asian cinema. But it's earlier than this. It's like 2001

maybe? I think so, 2000, 2001. And Audition was... Right. I think they might have. Battle Royale is 2000. I think Audition is 2001. No, 99. Sorry. Thank you. I saw Audition recently. I mean, obviously, I say these are the numbers on

them, but they came to the West a little later, usually. But I think Oldboy is benefiting from a couple years of tape trading of Battle Royale and Audition and The Killer. So you guys know about Japanese cinema? Sure. You know about Hong Kong kung fu movies? Sure.

But do you know about Korean movies? What do they do in Korea? Everything fucking opens up. Yeah. But I think. You know, but like, do you know about Korean movies? What do they do in Korea? Like, well, yeah. But I think there was that thing of like, you know, yes, coming from different countries. But those couple of movies we just listed circulating with like intense film bros. Right. Right. And then also because of like Tartan Extreme, I think a lot of them ended up at your like,

you know, Hollywood video. And like those were standards in the international section. And so if you were like looking for something that felt really provocative, right, really inflammatory, you could go find them at like most like chain places. You know, they were accessible. Yes. Sometimes in slightly cut down versions. Sure.

I do feel like you look at home video releases and you're like, oh, there was like a blockbuster version of Oldboy. You know, like that era still where certain chains would demand versions just for them. But they were also like they just cared so much less about international stuff, which was like the kind of secret of all of those chains. Right. Like if it was not rated in the first place, then they're like not really paying attention. Yeah. Yeah. Oldboy. Oldboy. Our guest today, of course, from From Vulture From the Prestige episode Where the world's greatest bit happened And Eat Drink Man Woman

Yeah we did that I don't think we did any bits in that though That's a great movie Wait is there another one we're forgetting Because we did realize it's been a stupid amount of time Since we've had Allison on Allison Wilmore is our guest That's embarrassing You're back Here I am Oh, it's been a stupid amount of time since we've had Allison on. Allison Wilmore is our guest. No, those are Allison's two episodes.

That's embarrassing. You're back. Embarrassing. Hi, Allison. Here I am. Yes. From outer space. From outer space.

Nice to see you. We see each other all the time. All the time. Okay, okay. That's not a bad thing. I love to see Allison. I see Allison sometimes, too. Sure.

That's true. We did the film spotting show together. That's it. I didn't do that. Our last hang was backstage somewhere. At the Bell House or something. There's it our last our last hang was like backstage somewhere there's no hang like a backstage nothing like that green room at the bell house yeah um they always have those tortilla chips yeah got some very nice right there's there's the the vegetable and hummus platter where the plastic lid almost never gets taken off to the point where

almost every time i go there i'm'm like, is this the same one? If I open this, is it plastic, actually? How long can they stretch that one out before they're like, no, we got to throw this one away? No offense to the lovely bell house, of course. Oh, we love them. Thank you for putting out the hummus. We love them. And I'm sure it's fresh.

And fresh as a daisy. And fresh as a daisy. Here we are today to discuss Oldboy. Certainly, yeah, one of the big boys in this filmography. I think it's the big boy. And a seminal film, I think, also. Let's also do that. It is the old boy of this filmography.

Sure, you mean it's old? I'm not sure. You're saying it's 20 years old. It's certainly the big boy of this filmography. It also is undeniably the old boy of his filmography. It's the only movie he made called Old Boy. That's true. That is accurate.

You can't push back on that, David. Sorry, what were you going to say? I don't remember. I don't know. It's falling apart already. I have no idea. Right before we started recording, Allison, you asked if any of us knew what the definition of Old Boy is. Yeah, like the kind of terminology Old Boy is not something that comes up for me very often.

Yes, I have to assume because the film is, so for one, it's based on a manga, a Japanese manga, correct, called Old Boy. Fairly loosely adapted. Yeah, we'll talk about that, but you know, but the same title. Yep. And then the Korean title is also Old Boy.

Like it's in Korean, obviously, but it's not like this movie's called old boy in america and it's called like the man who had a hammer in korea or whatever which sometimes that happens yeah it's like oh the title just means like completely different yes um the man who fucked his daughter wait what they give away the title in the i thought that was a spoiler but i don't know yeah let's go for some spoilers for a 20-plus-year-old movie. This is very much a family film. It is. It's for the whole family.

Old boy and the old boy network is sort of the terminology. Family likes fucking each other. Go on. Yeah. Uh-huh. You know, it refers to if you're, especially if you went to like Eton or whatever. You went to like a very fancy British school. Okay.

And then you graduate. You're called an old boy. Okay. I guess just meaning like you were once a boy. And now you, you know, when you were at that school, you were a boy. And now're called an old boy I guess just meaning like You were once a boy And now you, you know, when you were at that school You were a boy, and now you are an old boy Ben pointed out that a lot of British sort of greetings are like

Hey there old chum Old boy, watch out Yeah But I don't know In England you just call it the old boy network Like disdainfully Like like you're referring to. I've never heard of that podcast network. Yeah, they got some good ones.

They got David Cameron and Boris Johnson, all those guys. No, they're disdainfully referred to like the ruling class. You know, all these guys went to these schools. I've seen the old boy network I've heard of. But the idea of being like, you're an old boy. I think I would technically be referred to as an old boy from us. I think you all, they don't use the word alum or whatever. It's so funny to me that I never for a second ever thought, what does that title mean?

I just sort of was like, what's a movie about old boy? Like, I know his character's name is not old boy. And I know they never call him that. But I was just like, well, yeah, I don't know. Like Spider-Man. He's old boy. Not old boy. And I know they never call him that, but I was just like, well, yeah, I don't know.

Like Spider-Man. He's old boy. It was one of those things where back in the day, I guess we had the internet in 2003. I don't know what your guys' experience were with this. But, you know, we had the internet. We did. Yeah. I can't remember that far back.

Sorry. And like there was a Cannes Film Festival. Uh-huh. Now this film had actually, I think, already come out in Korea, but then it went to Cann went to can awareness of this movie was entirely for better or worse based on ain't it cool pumping this up for like a year oh it was definitely an ain't it cool it was a i didn't realize that hey you know what good for them like or whatever you know like that was that was what ain't it cool did i guess yeah they created those culty you know but it was one where they just sort of like everyone put their chips down we're like we're telling you

this is a major work so by the time obviously he'd already made you know sympathy for mr like you know so he was yeah he was he was getting some time the time it plays a con i was like i need to fucking see this thing now everyone is talking about i remember just all the online scullabutted can was tarantino wants to give this tarantino is the jury president wants to give it to old boy yeah like it's it's the perfect tarantino movie yes give this, Tarantino is the jury president, wants to give it to Oldboy. Yeah. Like, it's the perfect Tarantino movie. Yes. It's an Asian film, like, that's like sort of from a pocket of culture

that Americans don't know as much about, and it's super extreme and fucked up and crazy. A transgressive postmodern noir. Yeah. And then it went to Fahrenheit 9-11. Maybe the worst canned decision ever? Like, maybe the absolute worst decision ever made by a quite quite possibly yeah that movie is awful yeah yes and obviously is total vapor like it's like we're

gonna watch we're not talking about it now yeah it had no impact on anything i know it made like a hundred million dollars like it was a big deal well i'm sorry you say it had no pick impact on anyone a lot of a lot of shoulders got bruised. People fucking patting themselves on the back. Right. Sitting there buying a ticket. Mmm, yes. I do agree.

Like, you look at the lineup that year, and it's kind of a janky lineup. Sure. But, like, 2046 was in competition. Yeah, which I love. I know. I think it was in a slightly unfinished version. Maybe there was a whole thing with 2046 was in competition. Yeah, which I love. I know. I think it was in a slightly unfinished version. Maybe there was a whole thing with 2046. But anyway, fucking, you know, Lucretia Martel's The Holy Girl.

That's a great movie. That is a movie I think is a masterpiece. Nobody Knows, the creative movie. The nominative movie. Old Boy. Tropical Malady, which I think got maybe the jury prize. Like, you know, that was the beginning of him getting some attention. Irma P. Hall got a special award that year.

Was Lady Killers in competition? It was. That's wild. Lady Killers was in competition and she got a special award. It was sort of the Samuel Jackson, we're giving a supporting performance. Yeah, the prize of the jury. Right. Because they gave actor to the lead of Nobody Knows

and they gave actress to Maggie Chung for Clean, which is like not the best Us in this movie but like pretty good And she's amazing in it And that's her last film role? Maggie Chung? Yeah it's been a long time for her Has she never ever

It's been a long time It's like only cameos after that A couple cameos So good win And he fucking gave it to fucking michael moore yeah but anyway so that was when i was like hearing about old boy it was like this is the movie that's been anointed by quentin tarantino now obviously that's a little patronizing and ridiculous but 17 year old david that was my awareness for me it was

like that was being added on to a year of online drumming for this thing, where then I was just, I mean, I think I saw this like opening weekend, if not opening day when it played at the Angelica. Because by the time it came out, I was just like, well, this is like the phantom menace of international cinema. I've been reading like 18 months of breathless hype on this thing. What about you, Allison? What's your experience with Oldboy?

I cannot remember the first time I saw it. Like, I cannot remember the context. This feels also, I can't, it feels like a movie that would have been in the New York Asian Film Festival.

You know, like, it's absolutely, like that, like that festival also had an incredible run in like the kind of mid-aughts where they were just showcasing like all,

like so many movies from like what we've talked about, the kind of part and extreme era. And they were just like an amazing way that those movies got surfaced here but i i cannot remember when i first saw it i just remember being so intrigued by it because of how edgy it was supposed to be in terms of content you know and i just like i'm an easy mark for that if something is supposed to be just like truly incendiary i'm'm like, sign me up. I'm going to watch it. I, you know, I have an incredibly high tolerance for all of that, but I'm also just very easily

intrigued by it. Yeah. And this movie has a, I don't know. It's not like the, it's not like it is alone in this regard. Right. But it has a combination of like, there are scenes in it in which things happen on camera that are so extreme, you won't believe it.

And also, narratively, where this movie goes is so extreme, you won't believe it. Right. Like, you're going to be equally disturbed

by ideas and images. Whereas I feel like, often, in that sort of extreme cinema realm, it's like, maybe more one than the other. Yeah, absolutely.

I think also, you know, this has this, Oldboy has this incredibly potent combination of gorgeous filmmaking and then someone's tooth getting removed in close-up with the back end of a hammer yeah and that is something that i don't know there's something i don't want to say that's my sweet spot because that's so sociopathic but i do feel like i love thumbs up a gorgeously made movie that is also just like really out there in terms of where it's willing to go but yeah like the thing for me re-watching this um on a sketchy pirated streaming site because it's not

stream right now not available yes uh you know we have physical versions that we bought but i thought i had one as well but i couldn't find it did you watch it on f.movies.com it was something it was one of those ones where it's like one two three four movies dot net dot you know co dot rotten.com you know where you're like oh what's this doing to my computer but that having been said david we both watched on physical copies you i believe bought believe, bought an out-of-print American set. I did. I bought an out-of-print American steelbook set of the Vengeance trilogy. And I bought the Arrow set of the Vengeance trilogy, which is pretty new, but obviously

was not commercially released in the United States. Right. I don't think there's any North American physical release of this movie currently in print. There's one coming soon, though. Well, right. They are re-releasing it this August. Yes. Which is probably why it's not streaming right now.

They're trying to... Right. So it'll probably have a physical release after that or whatever. Yeah. But no, it is annoyingly and confusingly considering its reputation. I forgot to mention, or to stream, I forgot to mention one other film, of course, that was at the 2004 Cannes Film Festival

Shrek 2 we all remember Shrek 1 was at Cannes Shrek was a big deal was it also in competition? in competition really rude for 3 do you think Katzenberg was just like

it's a done fucking deal 3 is going to win the 3rd is getting in it's winning we fucking deal. Three's gonna win. The third's getting in. It's winning. We've laid the runway. Yeah, exactly. You know, Pomdora loves giving out that trophy to the third film in a trilogy.

Just waiting. Guys. You were... No, you weren't a Ken. Were you a Ken? No, you weren't a Ken. No. I was a Ken. Were you a Ken? Shrek the Third wasn't even Out of competition Shrek the Third was banned from France

They revoked its passport Old boy I think I saw this in theaters When it finally did make it over Over to me Because of all the hype And I think at the time I was like,

this movie is crazy. That's how I feel about this movie. When I was a teen, or yeah, I was like a late teen. I was like, well, this movie is crazy and I can take it.

And that's like a sign of what a mature... Sure, sure. You can handle it. I smoked a blunt and then watched this movie 100%. Right.

In high school. And had my fucking mind now you did that yesterday no i if i did that i yesterday i wouldn't be here right sure i can't do that anymore and i yeah i watched it uh and i'd said i've never seen it again i like re-watched it at some point and uh then i this is my third viewing of old boy i think so i i've talked about this in other episodes leading up to this. I have always struggled with this movie. You didn't really like it

on release. I went into it with all this hype and did not like it. Why didn't you like it? Well, let me unpack it because I rewatched it last night

for the first time in 20 years, basically. And I still really struggle with this movie. Yeah. And it's not a thing where I'm like morally offended by it in any way.

It's not like I have objections on that level. And I think like my tolerance is pretty fucking high for things that happen in movies. Like I, you know, I'm the guy who fucking stumped for Star 80. I'm like, there are a lot of movies that I really love that I think are truly like staring into the heart of darkness. Sure. Or depicting, like, incredibly uncomfortable things, whether thematically or visually or whatever it is. And this is just one of the few movies.

And perhaps it does have to do with the fact that it is just empirically well-made. So everything it's doing perhaps hits a little deeper. But I just, like, really find this movie unpleasant. And I don't say it pejoratively, but I also can't say I ever enjoy watching it. Yeah, I think

that's very fair. I have loved all of his other movies other than the first two. I'm so on board with Park in general. And this one is always a roadblock. It's very unpleasant. Yeah.

Yeah. I also, my feelings about, well, my feelings about him in general, I think kind of, I like him sometimes a lot and I don't other times. But this movie, I think, is like, it's thrillingly made, you know? Like, I think there are like, just like heart, like pulse pounding moments in it, like genuinely like rousing, messed up moments and it's it i do think it gets at something about like throw your life away rage and resentment and about what's ultimately about these like two incredibly sad dudes yes like destroying themselves um and i also think that like a lot of the plot is

just so dumb like it's just so dumb. It is a silly movie. That's why, see, that's why I like it because it's very, very silly. I also don't say this pejoratively. Somewhat whimsical. Yeah, yeah. But it is this weird balance that I just, I get very icked out watching it. And not just by the obvious icky things. The whole thing just kind of makes my skin crawl.

It has a very grotty, to use a British expression, aesthetic generally. Yes. It is a, it's one of the great wallpaper movies. Oh God. Some nasty wallpaper. Just tons of wallpaper.

Everyone, everyone in this movie is like, you know what I need in my apartment and or secret private prison. Mold. It's just mold

but also incredibly busy wallpaper. Yes. I watched the, the Arrow Vengeance Trilogy set has this two-hour-long documentary called, I believe, Old Days. Okay. That's like 15-plus years later

reminiscing on the movie from all the key creative contributors. About Oldboy, specifically. Yes. No, no, no. Just about Oldboy. Yeah. The DP on this film film remind me his name

uh isn't it uh chung chung hoon i believe chung hoon chung to use the you know i believe that's his usual uh yes uh he said he very strategically wanted to make sure that every single shot in this movie had green in it and a good amount of green and i feel like the most putrid chain of green very like mossy kind of dank green. And he said it was because green was historically the color that reproduced least easily on film. And people would, especially in this era, be like, just stay away from green if you can. Right, right. You don't want too much green.

And it's like he went towards the thing that was going to produce an unpleasant result on camera. Yeah. Yeah. This is a pretty grimy movie it's also interesting you know in comparison to decision to leave which also has a lot of epic wallpaper but it's like gorgeous dreamy like symbolic and modern handmade in two obviously has beautiful

painted yes ominous wallpaper type no but you're right decision to leave in general is very like antiseptic yes you know yes intentionally right you know he means very sensual this movie is sweaty and nasty yes and uh this man has been in a hotel for 15 years and you really feel it it's it's also like he starts out awful the movie starts and you're like i gotta watch this guy for like two hours and they're like like, no, no, no, don't worry. He's going to get a lot worse. He'll get worse, but his soul's going to die. Right, right.

Yeah, he's going to turn into a weird ghost. He'll sober up a bit. Yes. All right, Oldboy, let me give you some context, actually. All right, so I assume no one has read the manga Oldboy. It's very, very different. Have you read it? It's a long series.

I read, you know, one of those like Sparks Notes style summaries of it just to confirm that a certain major plot point seems to be absent. It's not in it at all. I believe the whole concept is completely different of like why he did this to him. The thing I heard Park say in the documentary was I was much more interested in not why someone imprisoned him for 15 years, but why someone would let him out. Right, right, right, right. Because imprisoning someone

for 15 years is punishment? Sure. Right. That would be a punishment that I would not want. But why would he release him and what are you trying to accomplish and what are you trying to prove?

What's the final chapter of this? Right. And then he, obviously his whole thing, he loves about how vengeance and violence all these things curdle and destroy us these urges and all of that and i think he just really went like incest is pretty much the most shameful thing in society just go for the

understandably yeah that could be the root of everything we'll talk about right okay the impression i get from the original is it's more just like i don't know they had this interaction in school that he was embarrassed by that the villain was embarrassed by and so he even though the villain became successful and powerful he wanted to humiliate this man and turn into a bad person and like that's kind of it like the discovery at the end is kind of anticlimactic he was like searching this whole time for like what did i do to this person to make them hate me so much? And it's like, yeah, you embarrass me when I'm emotional or something like that. Yeah.

Right. Giving huge Iron Man 3 vibes. I guess so. Sure. Guy Pearce is, you're remembering? Yeah, he says, I'll meet you up at the hotel room. He doesn't show up and Guy Pearce is like, I'll spend the next 20 years. Just trying to destroy you.

Yeah, glowing up. Fucking destroying your life. I like that though. You know, i like a long camp like all-consuming campaign of spite yeah well because of course because like yes if someone did that to me and i finally met them they probably would be like don't you understand and i'll be like i definitely don't like this is a one-sided adversarial thing there's no way i feel the way you do about me, about you. So there's, you know, this thing exists. And a movie producer, Lim Seung-young, finds the manga, likes the idea, and also apparently just sort of like is flickering through it and thinks the character looks like Choiroy min sick this this actor the lead actor again i apologize for you know my pronunciation i'm not sure there's troy min sick is and i don't speak korean so i cannot really help you out but i'm not look i'm looking for help but i'm not

expecting it um uh so for whatever reason that's the trigger thing it's just kind of like i don't know this guy kind of looks like you know this could be something so he takes it to park chen wook uh who is intrigued as this he likes this sort of like mythological old fairy tale pandora's box but modern thing um and he likes that it's kind of a fantasy um which it is. It really is kind of like a fairy tale. It feels like it's like an Arthur story. For sure. Right. Like, oh, you know what happened to Sir Blah?

He got locked in a castle for 15 years because he pissed this guy off. Not an Arthur story. That's the whole thing with King Arthur where they're like, and let me tell you about this knight. What's up with that? Like the Green Knight is one of those. Yeah. So it's not about an old drunk guy.

Arthur story. It says a lot that Ben went to Dudley Moore Arthur and I went to Eric Brown Arthur. He's called Odesu, right? That's the character's name, which is a reference to Oedipus. Oh, sure. Again, thinking of this as like,

you know, tragic Greek myth right um and uh apparently because they're casting troy min sick who i guess is just a very big actor at the time i think he had had his breakthrough in the 90s and just become a very big star they're like he kind of needs to be quote unquote heroic in the movie even though he is going to be a mess he'll be like fighting he is kind of like iconic his hair is cool you need to make him into a little bit more of an action star

even if it's a weird version of an action star and they had to talk him into the hairstyle it's an iconic hairstyle which is totally the right choice but I can assume why they were like look you'll look like Albert Einstein like it's an iconic hairstyle which is totally the right choice but I can assume why they were like look you'll look like Albert Einstein like it's great

you know that he was like what are you doing they show a bunch of the hair and makeup tests and they also in this documentary and they also he talks about a present day

and he talks about it as if it is still an act of trauma as he's recounting the moment apparently they where they did the test they basically like gave him a big perm

I think like they had to like wrap his hair in foil for like three days to make him look like he'd like been in the microwave. Yeah, hair does not do that normally. This looks like a rat's nest.

It's all matted. But it looks like a drawing also. It really does look like something that would be on the page where someone is just like a puffball. There's that animation principle of like, you should design your characters so that they all work in silhouettes. Blacked out, you can always tell

just from the shape of their body without the details we're like every simpsons character works purely in silhouette a lot of disney movies function that way like they all have a certain shape right no one else looks like this guy yes and the hair helps a lot but even just the fit of his suit and his posture and everything right he's like his joints feel like they work weirdly somehow there's something has gone on. And the smile, obviously. The smile,

which is just, you would not be surprised if the first time he did it, just like blood started seeping in between from his gums. We'll talk about the final shot of the movie,

but right, very crucial how he expresses himself facially. This is an astounding performance. It really is. He's amazing. I've only seen him in a few movies

Obviously he popped up in what, Lucy? He did eventually do a couple English language movies But I feel like he is, you know, largely He's in Sympathy for Lady Vengeance One, I'm forgetting No, but was there one other sort of Hollywood foray? Not that I can see I'm gonna

But you know Click around He's done a lot of theater Uh huh And like When you look at his theater career In Korea It's like

Equus Our town Yes The pillow man Like the You know like He does a lot of like Western plays

That like You know which So I think he's like A very venerated Sort of like Serious actor Exactly Yeah

Oh it's just I was just thinking If I saw the devil which is obviously not a hollywood film but was a huge crossover years ago yeah huge hit right like that was like a number one box office hit humongous hit such a messed up movie i've never seen it i know it to be nasty um but that was talk about a movie that's like benefiting from That's the Tale of Two Sisters guy Right? Yes But it's got that sort of like Well it's like the old boy guy in another movie that's fucked up

And that like worked People fucking bought the DVD Apparently then Okay so there's a press conference announcing this film Which I think is commonplace in the Korean industry And they're like so you're doing another movie about vengeance? You just did a movie about vengeance And Park impulsively is like Maybe I you're doing another movie about vengeance? You just did a movie about vengeance And Park impulsively is like

Maybe I'll do a third movie about vengeance And hence we have a vengeance trilogy But I don't think he was like In his studio being like I must explore vengeance I'm imagining him doing a Kevin Feige Press conference Announcing the phases of the vengeance trilogy

In advance And have we ever wondered about Lady Vengeance? So, okay. You know, here's some quotes from him. The reason I want to show shocking things is that they always pose an ethical question. When we're confronted with extreme situations,

we forget about moral issues. We simply act and then must accept the consequences. I want to show the moral issues involved in everyday life by heightening them. Now, Allison, you've interviewed him. I have. And it's just like from all these dossiers we're getting, like he really talks in these like blocks of text that are quite academic

or how I don't know how to describe it, but like he's not really like a punchy talker. Like he's very, very, very thoughtful and long-winded. So I was supposed to interview him for like a new york magazine rubric that is in conversation right which is a back and forth kind of like q a style but like longer piece and you know like two things that really don't make for in conversation are one going through translator which what yeah what is his does he speak english at all he could clearly like pick up some of it,

but like he uses a translator. And, you know, in general, I shouldn't, I think I shouldn't have done this interview. Like someone who is an actual Korean speaker should have done this interview. You know,

going through a translator is always going to lead to what? Like a weird rhythm and also just like losing context. Yeah, I was going to say also, I mean, him and also just like losing context yeah i was going to say also i mean him speaking in large blocks it's like the few times i've had to do something through a translator you are like i'm not gonna do one sentence back and forth right you're gonna do a big question yeah automatically yeah but i do also think that he oh he just has this kind of like sturdy intellectual reputation.

Yeah. Well, like so I the first time I interviewed him like twice or three times. I can't remember. But like the first time it was in person and I asked him what I thought was like a softball like question. Right. How are you doing today? It was something like that.

And then he answered for like 10 minutes. Like he talks and then the translator translated. And then he talks more and the translator translated. And then he talks more like 10 minutes. Like he talked and then the translator translated and then he talked some more and the translator translated and then he talked some more and the translator translated. And I was like, oh no. But you know, yes, he is very, very intellectual about, you know, how he talks about his films and like very considered, but like very, very serious.

Which is funny. I think sometimes when you look, like his movies are like goofier sometimes. This movie is pretty goofy. Yeah, I think of him as consistently goofy. Yes. Like pretty much, there's pretty much humor in all of his movies.

Strange humor or just, yeah, like fanciful twists of sort of. I think that is Dory. One of the things that put him on the map and then with this movie made him sort of like, oh, this is a director. I know what I'm getting when I'm going to see a Park Chan-wook film. His name means something is this very bizarre mix of tones he has on top of the sort of thematic concerns and the aesthetic proclivities and, you know, the intensity and all that sort of shit. It is like, how can this guy balance this sort of incredibly goofy comedy

with serious action sequences, with, like, over-cranked drama? Also, like, wrenching emotional stuff. Yeah. Allison, I read your most recent interview. My brain is not working today. The one you did when Decisional Leave was coming out. Yeah, that was the one where I spoke to him

three times for that altogether. Yeah, and I was like, I want to see what you say. Allison's coming was the one where I spoke to him three times for that all together. Yeah, and I was like, I want to see what you say. Allison's coming on the show. I should read this interview. And I was like, why is all of this familiar? And I realized basically

every single answer he gave, JJ used in the dossier for our first episode. So if you want to invoice JJ, you basically wrote that dossier for him. I mean, that's nice to hear because I was worried.

It was hard to get him to talk about things that I feel, you know, especially when you're going basically wrote that dossier for him i mean that's nice to hear because i was worried it was it's hard to get him to talk about things that i feel you know he's especially when you're going through someone's like past work like they just have a bunch of stories that they've already told and they just kind of like fall into that as much you know like there's but but i think there are some things especially with regard to when he said like after this movie he felt bad about how Mido the like female character was left like not having

all the information about say her relationship and everything that just happened. She's like a little laminated card being like by the way. Yeah he fucked your dad. No but he made several films after this that were all attempts at correcting. Exactly.

Yes. The lack of agency. I mean, it's not a surprise he goes straight from this into Lady Vengeance and Handmaiden and Decisional Leave. He was saying in your interview, like those were both still him trying to address what he felt were shortcomings in Oldboy. Yeah. And he works with female screenwriters now.

Like, he makes a point of that. And I think, like, his family gets kind of also, like, gives more feedback. But, yeah, certainly in this movie, it's, like, very glaring. He seems very aware of it. Especially The Handmaiden. I feel like he was really, like, I have, like like feel like i'm much more of a feminist than i was 20 years ago i just i think we'll talk about it when that movie comes around look it's probably it's it's one of the things that uh icks me out about this movie and i'm not saying this in like

a morality police you know kind of way but it is just like everything in this movie is awful right basically every character is despicable everything everyone's living through is horrendous, right? And I, you know, I'm usually very tuned into everything is terrible, everyone's the worst movies because that matches my basic viewpoint on the world. But this character in particular, you're just like, I feel so fucking bad for her. She's kind of the only person

who in no way has this coming yes you know and and she just gets so fucked in so many ways while also not really being given any narrative agency or interiority where you're like this whole movie she's just hypnotized right and then like i mean you get that one glimpse of her like in the past and she's just crying alone on the subway. You're like, man, like even before, before you had this encounter where, yeah, you were hypnotized into this thing. Your life was filled with misery. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit of a bummer.

She gets a raw deal. I mean, everyone does i but i do think this yes this movie i do think is like very much about like all-encompassing specifically masculine rage and the rest of the world just kind of gets swept up by kind of idiocy in the sense yeah yeah i just i just feel so bad for her at every moment yes in this film to a point where it does just sort of start to like affect my yeah you just don't want to watch it yeah no i get that um it's sort of the way you now david like talk about when we watch movies where there are like small children's or small children babe right exactly right where you're just like i just can't even process i just i just don't like to think about it it's like i

can process it but i just don't want to think about it. Now, sometimes I'm going to have to. Yeah. You know, it's my job. I got to see movies where children are in peril or whatever. But I hate it. But I usually almost love thinking about horrendous things to the extent where you just say, Griffin, stop thinking about that. Maybe you don't, though. Maybe you're realizing this about yourself. I don't know. That was the thing was watching this when it came out,

knowing its legacy was so great. Being excited to rewatch it for this. I was like, I might just watch this and be like, oh, I was like 14 when I saw this, whatever. Sure.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. But it was, it was interesting in a way I do have to absolutely commend this movie for. It still affected me as viscerally.

Yeah. I mean, I, you know, rewatching this and i hadn't seen it for years um that it is i think that relationship and the the that is the stuff in the movie that is more upsetting than any of the violence you know knowing the twist going in on a review every scene just becomes worse yes

you know the writing process is complicated there's like three different writers Park Jung-wook is doing a lot of rewrites Choi Min-sik is very involved they're like running all kinds of stuff by him he for example comes up with the octopus eating scene

even though he is Like a Buddhist vegetarian Who does not usually eat live octopi When you say not usually what? Like once a month Exactly I do think People do eat live octopus

That is a concept in cuisine They chop it up for you They kill it It's still kind of twisting it it's like still like it's still kind of twisting but like that's like kind of like like yeah like nerve ending stuff of it but like yeah you're not like yeah it's being served like here it is an octopus and there's like a clip from um some dvd extra behind the scenes that's on youtube that you can see where he like apologizes to the octopus each time.

That's nice. At least like, I'm sorry. It had to do with like, like four times. I think. Yeah. Yeah.

It was good. I mean, delicious, but complex. I know. I feel bad. Cause they're pretty smart. I mean,

not that that has stopped me from eating other animals that are. Look, this is a long road we can go down. Yeah, I guess, yeah. You know, ethically compromised. That's me. But, yeah, you know, I think what makes that scene beyond shock value so, like, seared my brain is that

the, like, tentacles keep twisting around his face, you know? That's what I was gonna say. It's just like, that was a scene where I had been told that was one of the three things you heard about the movie. There's this scene where he fucking smashes everyone with a hammer. There's a scene where he does. And he eats an octopus whole.

And I just remember being like, I don't know what you're talking about. I cannot conceive of it. What does that mean? And so what I imagined was horrible. And then the movie is at the rare time where it's actually kind of more disturbing than what you could imagine. Yes. But it's also like of the moments of like just really this like nihilistic jolts. Like, you know, I'd say that like the scene where he's walking away and the guy falls on the car behind him.

And he like grins, has that same energy. The octopus. There are a few moments like where you're just that you really i feel like that is what the film offer wants to offer more than anything is this like like look at how fucked up this is but also um isn't it thrilling like you've never seen this before there was an anecdote maybe it was from the producer the dp saying they when they shot that day where he does the smile after the guy falls on the car, that might have been the first day of the movie,

or if not, was very early on in the shoot. And he said, like, I want you to give me a smile where I can't tell if you're about to laugh or cry. And he did that and, like, rubbed his hands together and he's like, we have a movie. Yes, right, right. With sort of, like,

that's the tone I'm trying to achieve. We've got it in that shot. Now I know what to pursue. But yes, no, the octopus thing is wild. Biggest problem Park has with the screenplay is the ending,

which I think is probably initially hewing more to the original. Okay. Didn't like the ending, had to think of a new ending. And as you say, he basically is just kind of like, well, incest is the worst thing imaginable most shameful uh yeah um you know uh it's uh it that's i think that really

he says he came up with it while he was going to the bathroom uh i don't know what that means but he basically like came out of the bathroom at some restaurant and said to his producer, like, I've got a great idea. Like, here's what we're going to do. He thinks it's quote unquote a happy ending, but he sort of means that, I think, in a tragic, horrifying way. He did ban his daughter, his oft-mentioned daughter, from seeing the film. He deemed it too awkward for her to see it. Yeah, certainly. He talks all the time, Allison, in these dossiers about the movies he makes where he's like,

I made it for my daughter. And you're like, you did? Like, Stoker is one where he's like, I wanted to make a movie about a 19-year-old girl. Miser episodes. What? Yeah, coming up. Yeah, we'll talk about it later. But this is the one where you're just very relieved to hear he did not make it for his daughter.

Right, right. That he, in fact, said, my daughter's banned from seeing this movie. But, yeah, so, old boy, let's talk about it. It's about a businessman who is arrested for public drunkenness. He's being a bit of a rascal. You open with the rooftop scene where he's holding the guy by the time. He's holding a guy by the time being like, you want to hear my life story, bro? Yeah.

And you're like, who the fuck is this guy? And then it cuts to him as a drunken businessman where he looks so radically different, not just in obviously how he's styled, but also just like, oh, this guy has life in his eyes. Yeah, but he was also like, he's he gained lost weight, right, for this role

and he clearly is like bigger in that like deliberately. Yeah. His face is different. Uh-huh. Very, very different. The first time I saw this, I thought we were cutting to a different person. Right. I remember it taking me a little while to realize once he gets into imprisonment, oh, it's the same guy from the opening

and then they bring us back around. But yes, he's drunk. It's his daughter's birthday. He from the opening. And then they bring us back around. But yes, he's drunk. It's his daughter's birthday. He's fucking up. He's not getting home in time. His best friend is trying to help him out. Right. He's at the police station, right?

With this drunken disorderly. Yeah. He's been picked up for public drunkenness. He misses his daughter's birthday. Kind of very depressing Payphone phone call Apologizing He's got the angel wings like as a present Right? Yes

And he Gets picked up by his friend And I guess he's going to go home and then he gets Kidnapped and put into A weird hotel room with a pet door And You immediately don't really like this guy You're like this guy's annoying you know kidnapped and put into a weird hotel room with a pet door and you just immediately don't really like this guy you're like this guy's annoying he's like falling all over the floor he's like such a buffoon yeah so like self-amused like this is the guy where he gets on your subway car

you move to a different subway car yeah also the scene where he disappears it's like this kind of it's like a crane shot right like it's like there's something which is like so like yeah where he has this kind of like moments of like this kind of classical like you know uh just like in terms of how he he he frames things and like moves the camera in the middle of this movie that also then wait is it in this or because we're doing all these movies i don't like one shot where like the camera goes between two people and around and i was just like i don't like one shot where like the camera goes between two people and around. And I was just like, I don't know how you did that. It doesn't look handheld.

Like I just am watching it being like, what is this? Yeah. What did you do? There's not enough space for you to like lay a track, but I don't anyway. Yeah. So cool.

Every movie of his has some shot like that where you're just like, I don't understand this. I do think there's something decisionally full of them. I know that's a lot of visual effects and stuff. We talked a lot about, in the first episode, how he grew up at a time where there wasn't that much of a South Korean cinema, and he is mostly seeing films from other countries.

He's not going to the theater much. He's seeing whatever's on TV, and it's a lot of classic Hollywood, and it's a lot of new wave French films. And I'm sure they were subtitled, you know, but he's young. It makes sense cinematically in terms of how his sense of language develops visually, right?

That this is a guy who's probably getting a lot more from the cinematic technique as a child than understanding the nuances of plot points, right? Yeah. Like he's sitting there watching grown-up movies with his parents on tv

and he's really going like why is the camera doing that right you know why why what is getting taken with the images of stars faces i thought about that until i was older like a teenager or something you know like i when i'm a kid i don't think i was like what's the camera doing yeah like i was just trying to follow narrative but yeah i think you can see it all over his work where he just like absorbed so much of this. Yes. And in this really, in a way that I think it's not deployed in the same way that if you had just gone to

a film school, you know, that you would kind of have learned maybe a more narrow path towards that. You know, he kind of deploys them really in ways that are very unexpected. I just think there's something to this generation that he's part of,

of South Korean directors who didn't really have a local national cinema culture to grow up around and everything they were digesting was imported from other countries, right? They're not seeing cinema reflect their daily existence,

their culture, and it's not in their language. It all feels a little foreign and alien to them. And so they're processing it in kind of maybe a little bit of a backwards way where the technique is coming through first and foremost. You know, the film stars Troy Min-Sik. The villain is played by this actor, Yuji Tei.

Another incredible performance. An amazing performance. However, that man is also significantly younger than Choi Min-sik and it's not hidden in the movie.

It makes no sense that they would be classmates. Yeah. To the point that, like, you're almost like, what's the further twist here? And it's like, no, no, no, they just were classmates.

Don't think about it. Right. I think they're, the closest they come to addressing is being like, well, he was like two years below him. I'm like,

this guy was 15 years below him. Two'm like, this guy was 15 years. Two dog years below him? And he wanted, Park wanted to cast this actor, Han Suk-kyu, who is the co-star of Choi Min-sik in this film, number three, and another film called Shiri,

both of which were like smash hits. Yeah. Shiri was like a blockbuster video standard also. Probably just trying to be like, hey man, let's get the gang together here. Yeah. But Choi Min sick is like no cast this younger guy uh i really like his vibe and he is amazing in the movie and i think they're the overall thinking on the age thing was like who cares like this movie is so chaotic let's just embrace it sure and be unconventional like

everything else about the movie is so unconventional he also like has such this like rarefied wealthy person life that you can just kind of accept that like oh like life is just less hard on you like you were exactly bathing in blood you know the way that rich people we all know yeah um i also we were talking about this off mic we were talking about this so it's really weird that you've referred to. What do you mean? We all know that. We all know we were all in on. Normal. Yes. And to be clear, we were talking about it off mic because we all do it. Of course.

That's why we look so beautiful with our bouncing skin. Incredible. Yeah, just glowing. Anyway, I was going to say, there was that one shot where he is like doing that like yoga move where he like lifts his like legs up and he has headphones on and is crying and you just see his like miserable face as he like impossibly lifts like half his body off the in the air and it is just such an indelible image like that is actually alongside the octopus like one of the scenes i remember the most absolutely and it's his like hair helmet he has like the

firmest raised back hair. Super gelled, yeah, like you feel like you could snap it off. They said that whatever the gel, whatever the product they used was so strong that to get it out, they would end up removing clumps of hair. That by the end of it, he was patchy, and it took a while to grow back in. I think there's something to the fact in terms of their age gap, and I don't think this was intentional at all, but it's part of why I maybe like accept it

in some sort of a static truth kind of way where it's like, well, our lead character has been in imprisonment for 15 years, and it's been a rough 15 years. Yeah, that's fair. Harder than most. At the city miles, yes.

And it's sort of like, this guy is the exact same age he was when he imprisoned the other guy, right? Yeah. It's like one of them has sort of stayed exactly the same, and the other one has aged twice as fast. All right, so, right, the plot of the movie, right? He's in the hotel room. He's being fed dumplings every day via a pet door.

They gas him. They gas him. Here's the thing with every day via pet door. They gas him. They gas him. Here's the thing with the gas. No good. It's definitely not good, but as someone who has trouble sleeping. Oh, you kind of like the idea of like, it's 11 p.m., I'm going to my room.

I was a little bit like, what if there was a fucking switch in my room where I could gas my ass? The opposite of an air purifier. A big boxing glove that just like, and then you're like, well, I do like that too, David. I do like that too.

The gas is so peaceful. Like he's often in bed already and then he's just like, ah, like, yes. I understand. But it's one of those things, it's on the bleeding edge of being like, what if I just died? I mean, you raise some interesting points.

There's something, Let's explore them. No, I wouldn't be surprised if I heard like that's another thing crazy rich people do. It's like bathe in blood, use Ozempic, gas themselves to sleep so you get a solid tan. That's basically what Michael Jackson was doing. He had to be sedated.

Are you guys on gas TikTok? It's so just prolific. Lady Gaga has total gas face right now. It's one of my favorite concepts in Inception is the people who are like, yeah, we've done Inception too long to actually be able to go to sleep, so we have to be put to sleep by the machine now.

I think about that scene all the time. Just all the people lying out there. The fact that that movie just fucking drops that in for one scene, and it doesn't factor back into the plot. Yep. So, yeah, so he goes crazy. He starts imagining ants crawling over himself.

He tries to kill himself. He starts stitching lines into his hand for every year. Sort of manually tattoos himself. He has the line, I butchered, which would it have been easier if going in I knew it was going to be 15 years,

which is right off the bat, you see him imprisoned. You don't know how long it's going to be. He says that line before we're basically seeing the time lapse of all this time so you're just like 15 years holy fucking shit and it is a good question is it easier to survive if you think every day i might get out tomorrow or if you know it's going to be 15 years i just gotta ride this out um he's trying to dig a tunnel but he is on like a high floor. Yes.

Like he does eventually punch a hole in the wall. It's also taking an incredibly long time. Right. So, yeah. And also like he's being watched, which I feel like he sort of knows. Yeah. Absolutely. He gets TV.

He does get TV. So he watches. I do love that montage of like all the historical events that happened. Some of which I'm like, well, sure. 9-11, Princess Diana dying And others like presidents being elected And like the you know reopening of Hong Kong And things like that you know That are more specific

The other thing he gets from the TV is that he has been framed for his wife's murder Yes yes he gets that right away Right And then one day he gets out He wakes up in a suitcase He wakes up in the middle of the night to a woman hypnotizing him. Well, first there's that. Sure.

Yes. Right. And then the next thing he knows, he's in a suitcase in the middle. Which was the central marketing image of Spike Lee's remake of this film. Which is fascinating. Was the suitcase. Yes. Not a bad image, to be clear.

No, it's great. I mean, like, it's especially it's like shot from above and you don't and then you understand that you're not in a field. You're on a rooftop and, you know, I've never seen. No, I haven't. Have you seen it? Oh, no. I do. No, actually, I think I may have, but I have retained nothing like I it's gone.

Like it's gone from my head. I know it has this reputation of like there's actually a decent cut of it that never went out. It's at 105 minutes. Berlin said Spike Lee's cut was up 140 and was good Right Who knows But a truly Like forgotten thing Is that that happened

Made zero money It was released by like Film District Right starring Thanos and Scarlet Witch Right true And like as far as I know that movie is basically identical plot wise. Like it has the incest twist. Yes. Though I think at the end.

They don't end up together. No, I think he like checks himself back into the prison. Right. That's maybe the one difference. He punishes himself. He has nonetheless in that movie had sex with his daughter. Yes. Like that is certainly in the film.

No, the wild thing is because when this came out, by the time it finally came out in the United States, I remember already being announced, obviously, with all of its hype, with Khan and everything, Justin Lin is going to remake this with Nicolas Cage. Right. I went into it thinking, how will Nicolas Cage do this movie? I remember the whole time watching it. I do remember the Cage thing, yeah. And then you get to the end and you go, well, they're never going to let this happen in an American film.

Right? And then a couple years after that, Spielberg and Will Smith are going to make it. Yes, I remember the Will Smith thing. And that's a public announcement, and then it came out, like, we're actually doing a different adaptation of the comic. We're not looking to remake Park Chan-wook's

film. We will be changing the plot. Right? And then it kind of came out that they had gotten the rights from the Korean company that had made the Park Chan-wook film, but that those rights didn't enable them to be able to sell

the underlying comic rights. So they were like, the only thing you could do is remake the film literally. At which moment Spielberg and Smith tap out and suddenly it's Spike Lee and Josh Brolin is his tenth choice. And it's like one of the only films that is a Spike

Lee film, not a Spike Lee joint because it's like his version of taking the name off the movie. But it's wild that then they just had Spike Lee remake it pretty straightforwardly with all the fucked up shit. Right.

It's in New Orleans, right? Yeah. But yeah, I think it is a basic retelling. Yes. But whatever. But my main thing, when I watch this version, I go, God,

Charlton Copley would really lend. That's true. That's actually the worst curse. It was made during the brief, like, Charlton Copley should be in everything. They put him in everything. Yeah. And he does the worst curse. It was made during the brief, like, Charles de Copley should be in everything phase. Yeah, and he does the same thing in everything. I'm crazy.

Hello, listen to me. Old boy. Okay, so he gets out, and yes, who is this man on the roof? He's going to commit suicide, right? He's just a guy who happened to be there. Just happened to be there. A depressed man. He thinks his life's bad. Right.

Why don't we talk to this guy? I hate that he has this dog. I know. I was upset about that, too. I hate that. Yeah. That's the thing that's upsetting for me. That dog did not do anything to deserve this.

Maybe the dog wrote a suicide note as well. Maybe the dog was like, hey, please. I can't get to the top of a building by myself. We hate this joke. Go on, David. No. Griffin myself we hate this joke go on david no griffin we hate the whole here's the thing here's the thing griffin absolute disaster show is canceled look obviously i don't love animal cruelty in films but i don't either no no but i it does not bother me i'm not a pet owner sure and i do feel like i'm like well yeah i i it

bounces off me a little better for for what And I know there's some people who are like, you have to tell me. Like, hey, did you see that movie? You have to tell me what happens to the dog. You know, like, because they know, like, I won't be able to hack it. Sam Ruggel, one of my best friends, past and future guests, loves the John Wick franchise more than anything. Every time a new one comes out, he does an all-day marathon, which now takes a while. But he skips the dog killing. And he's just like, when the first one came out, I was not a dog owner.

Since then, I am. It's my closest relationship with my wife. In my life, more than my wife. And he's like, I now just start John Wick, you know, 20 minutes in. Or I skip that one scene. Yeah. I mean, Forky has seen John Wick three or four times. And she definitely has never watched that scene.

She just leaves the room. Anyway. Right. So, he recounts things To the rooftop man Goes downstairs I bet you're wondering how I ended up here And then the rooftop man does kill himself

And he's kind of like They also have that funny bit where the rooftop man's like Now let me tell you my story And he's just like, nope, I don't care I don't know what you thought this was But this is not what we're doing and then pretty much right away he ends up in the Chinese, the sushi restaurant

not Chinese restaurant, sushi restaurant the Chinese restaurant is later the dumplings, yeah, the sushi restaurant well because he's been hypnotized right, he's like as we later know, he's been essentially subliminally told to go I have forgotten, not having seen this film in almost two decades, that she was hypnotized as well.

And I was just like, this is really a big ass that she falls for him this immediately. Oh, yeah. No. Because he's not appealing. No, he's, in fact, aggressively unappealing. And also treats her terribly. Not very nice. And eats a giant octopus.

I have to imagine he smells terrible. Like, everything about this guy. You know, they gave him a new suit and everything. So, you know, he might actually smell okay. Fresh linen. Yeah. But, yes. No, she's just immediately, like, touching him.

Oh, man. That guy who just came in here. Yeah. And ate an octopus. That's what I want. And then, like, slammed his head against the counter after taking a phone call. Right. Yeah.

Let me bring him back to my place. Yes. Brings him back to her place and she wins him over. But again, all of this is pre-programmed in a way so it's almost silly to talk about. But also, like, he tries to assault her, right? Like, immediately. Like, while she's on the toilet, he just walks into the

bathroom and tries to start making stuff happen. Yeah. Right. And all of nothing dissuades her like nothing uh her response to that is we don't know each other's names yet yes obviously i want to have sex with you because i invite you back to my place let's just do this in the right order right whereas i would be like get out of my place but i'm not hypnotized hypnotized not a hypnotized um and i feel like yeah fairly quickly they start to zero in on like okay well who is delivering the dumplings

that's how we'll figure out you know this actress who plays Mido Mido when she was auditioning Kang Hae Jung she had to audition with the sushi restaurant scene and she came in with a giant

sushi knife and did her audition with the knife and then like obviously came in with a giant sushi knife and did her audition with the knife. And then, like, obviously no other problem. She's not, like, chopping up food, but she was just, like,

acting with a knife in her hand. So she had a problem. And they were like, you brought the knife all the way from home for the audition? And she was like, no, I realized on the walk over here

I should probably have a knife, so I just kind of jumped into a restaurant and asked if I could borrow one. And they were like, what do you, they don't, like, you borrow knives at restaurants. I personally have never asked to borrow a knife at a restaurant. I if I could borrow one. And they were like, what do you, they don't, like, you borrow knives at restaurants.

I personally have never asked to borrow a knife at a restaurant. I've never been like, can I take the check? And also, can you lend me a knife? Well, especially if those are probably really expensive knives. Thank you. Yeah, they're fancy. So she was like, keep them sharp. I was just like, they have a ton of them. She's very charming. Right. Her mind was, they have

so many of them, they'll be fine letting me take one for 45 minutes. And they were so astounded they said that that then Park Chan-wook went over to the restaurant and said, like, can you just verify this story for like without shame and without, you know, guile, I guess. To do something like that is so crazy. My brother once, when he was young, got hired. I probably shouldn't tell this story. Got hired for a job. And then like a few weeks later, one the one of the um people at the job was like it's so crazy you got this job after the almonds and my brother was like what do you mean

and they were like in the middle of the interview you just opened a pack of almonds and started eating them without addressing the situation like without being like hey by the way i'm really hungry or i have to eat almonds to live or just do joey joey really just like casually i think that's a power move exactly i think you and the guy was like and we just had no idea what why you did that and we did discuss it and we and i do think it secretly worked to his advantage it's incredibly powerful absolutely like this is it's just insane confidence and my brother's 100 was just like oh i was just hungry and i had almonds in my pocket. Like, I think that's what he was thinking about.

At least they were in a package. Yeah, he didn't just pull out some loose almonds. Yeah, that would be too far. It would just be, they're like, oh, this is a lot, man. Okay, so yeah, so they figure out the Chinese restaurant that is making his prison food and so through that,

they get to the prison. He's like, I want answers. I'm on the case now. Right. Want to find out what happened to my daughter. Want to find out who imprisoned me. She's read his journals too. And she's kind of gotten invested through reading his life story

and really wanting to help. To be fair, a pretty nuts story. Yeah, it's an interesting story. Yeah. She's also like got the weird chat room thing yeah that's a kind of very underdeveloped uh little thread in there where she's kind of in there chatting with someone online who turns out to be very important to this story yeah um i feel like there's one other thing about this i don't remember um but basically yes you know with her with her gumption and his hammer skills they can do anything I feel like there's one other thing about this. I don't remember. But basically, yes.

You know, with her gumption and his hammer skills. They can do anything. They're an undefeatable team. Pretty quickly, she finds what she thinks is information about his daughter. Right. That's the thing. They dismissed the daughter thing pretty quickly. She was adopted by a couple in Switzerland or Sweden. That's it.

You know, you won't find her, but she's fine. Right. Yeah. They kind of just swipe that away. They give her a piece of paper with an international number and like a Swedenized name and everything. And he's just like, you know what? I don't need to fucking interrupt her life. Right. Yeah.

So they go to the prison, which is just one of those... And it's a good thing, by the way, they push the daughter out of the plot because then we just never have to think about that ever again. It's just taken care of. Go to the prison. Uh, one of those classic hotel prisons.

The guy's like, I can run like 20 of these rooms. Easy. I just have so many. I have all the permits. I just, if we could have just like hovered there for like a half an hour in the middle of what he just explains the business model and the workings,

it would have been amazing. I would love a spinoff workplace sitcom about this. Yeah, well especially because he mentions he's like, you know, some people they do the business with like people who need bodyguards, but like we don't do that. Like, you know, our niche in the private hotel prison

business would be like thriving industry apparently. Really? Some people do that? Yeah. How do you find like where this guy is like, I need to punish this man. Can you call, can you find anyone who, you know, runs like... Like in between floors on a building. Right, runs like a sort of

seventh and a half floor kind of vibe. Also, there's one part where he's on the phone to a client and he says like, you know, well, if it's a stay for longer than six months, transport is free, which presumes that they're comparing prices and deals. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a competitive business. 15 years. You're going to rack up quite a bill. Do you think they make him put down a card for incidentals? Definitely. Yes. And then, you know, they email him every year. Cards expire.

Yeah. Great. Do we think it's a real thing that exists in the world, Ben? Well, there's another movie about a hammer man. I do. I think rich people do shit like this. You're never really here. Oh, yeah.

Also has like the creepy prison. Obviously, that's sex trafficking kind of thing. It's the Bordello version of it. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I don't know. In terms of just like a revenge prison where you're like. I don't know. But you know what, David?

That's a great counter. Like that's a great like that's a deeply disturbing movie that I'm obsessed with and watch compulsively I mean I think that movie is very good

yeah I don't think you should be watching it compulsively I study it like the blade um but uh I think that's one of my favorite movies

of the last 10 years you know a very sort of nasty idea of what life is like right now right but that also like that is another movie where the main character is kind of cast as like a creature almost like there's something very like animal you know like uh troy mincing this his character in this movie describes himself as a monster constantly and there is something of the monster to him absolutely and

i think in that movie too he's like a. I wasn't thinking of the comparison. And perhaps this is something I need to litigate with my therapist tomorrow. But I don't know why I'm like so all in on that. A movie I've like recommended to certain people and they're just like, that's just too much for me. And it is. That movie is much. Absolutely. It's very much. Right.

And it features a hammer. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of hammer. That's what I'm saying. Another hammer man. He's an unkempt hammer man. But that movie is like It's just like

All of the kind of brutality Is so concentrated And this movie It's so like lurid And kind of Yeah Gothic You know

There's something like It kind of revels in it In a different way Maybe that's part of it Yeah Like it really kind of Licks its lips over Some of this stuff

Yeah Whereas You were never really here It's pretty mopey Yeah Yeah Oh right So yeah he interrogates

the hotel guy right in this scene he uses his hammer you get his teeth out yeah first you get that great moment where he like turns around and there's the hammer and he gets the dotted line like so that's that's the guy's bodyguard or whatever right like we don't even see him hit him with a hammer like working in the hall that is so good and so like fucking french new wave or whatever so like delightfully out of that's a moment where tarantino must have like jumped out exactly i've just like number one but then number two i feel like is tarantino is probably like fuck this guy actually puts the hammer in the tooth in a close-up yeah yeah like i couldn't do that in like reservoir dogs or whatever tarantino always does

that thing of like the best movies made since i started making movies he always has this qualified list of like well from the moment i become a filmmaker i view films differently right and i feel like this is one of very few films he cites that was made since he became a director that he is jealous of where he's like battle royale. Like, these are the movies where I was like, I don't know how the fuck these guys did this. Right, right, right. That dotted line moment makes me think of Looney Tunes, where I wanted it

to be like Hamlet's... Yeah, like Smash Bros. or whatever. A crazy thing in the documentary, just a tiny little thing. They were talking to the actor, the hotelier, about that scene. And he said, like, it wasn't painful at all.

It's just a sponge they painted silver and cut into the shape of the back of a hammer. And then they cut in the shot again. And it's crazy where if you're looking at it and you know to look for that you're like yeah that no way looks real right but in the moment within context you get so caught up on it and it's such a tight close-up it's not like they're cutting away from it quickly it's like tongue is like they're kind of flapping in the shot yeah nasty yeah and it's rigged with blood spurting out and all of this yeah tooth stuff I feel like the only thing that's worth is eye stuff. Eye stuff is really nasty. Eye stuff is the worst for me. I have come to feel better about eye stuff

because I'm just like, for some reason I've seen enough of it that I'm like, this is fake. Because there's just always that moment where you're like now it's fake. You know, there's a bunch of goo getting squirted out or whatever. I don't love it, to be clear. I love having eyes, too. I love having eyes. And also one time, you know, I's a bunch of goo getting squirted out or whatever. I don't love it, to be clear. I love having eyes, too.

I love having eyes. And also one time, you know, I got LASIK like a few years ago. And LASIK is like the most body horror shit. That scares the shit out of me. No, really. Like, it's like 20 minutes of just like full-on Cronenberg awfulness. And then, yeah, so really just emphasize to me how bad LASIK is. Don't want it.

Absolutely. But yeah, pulling teeth out bad I don't want it um absolutely but yeah no pulling teeth out I don't know don't don't like that at all nails get me fingernails yeah it's rare to see some fingernail stuff when you do it's usually really really horrible movie there's some big film where they do fingernail torture that I feel like I watch a reason

yeah I feel like I saw something recently too but I can't remember what it was a Super Mario Brothers movie. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, right after this, pretty much is, he tells him he was put in prison for talking too much. I feel like that's the big revelation, really.

But after this is the hammer fight. The two most famous things about this movie, apart from the twist, are in the first sort of like 40 minutes of the movie. Yes. So like the octopus and the hammer fight. It is a fascinating thing where like this, this is a movie where in theory recommending it to people should be difficult because you don't want to spoil any of it.

Right. But then there are these like couple of extreme things that happen early on that no way have to do with any of the twists or turns that you can just pitch to people. This guy fucking fights a bunch of people with a hammer and he eats an octopus live. And they're like, what's it about? And it's like, I can't tell you anything. I mean, the thing I love about the hallway fight scene beyond just that it is one take. It's very, very well done.

It's just it's so awkward you know it's it's just there is this people who have vague ideas about how fighting works and maybe some experience but like still are not you know like john wick you know martial arts masters programmed into a computer the puzzle of like a man moving through 12 people yeah right with such balletic grace or whatever no it's just like a bunch of people charging lurching at each other i mean and then being out of breath yeah sweaty guys like some of the guys are obviously more scared than others halfway through and they're just like reluctant to try it and then i had forgotten that he gets like stabbed halfway

through and they're all like leaning around being like is he dead and then he like lurches back out yeah uh trance which we talked about in the podcast oh that has fingernail stuff yeah i knew there was something we talked about recently that's a fingernail you know that's a wild movie but i think it's pretty normal um it's about normal yes that is the single biggest influence of this movie i think even though you're saying it's very different than John Wick, I'm like, I do think there is a long tail effect of this sort of like you want to just watch a person move through a space. Right. And even just the lack of cleanness of the choreography of just like this is more behavioral. Right. And there are actual kind of character beats within it.

I still feel like this is kind of what people are striving for all the time. Yeah. And a bunch of people have tried to rip it off or pay homage to it over the years. To the extent that like the hallway fight has become its own thing. Yeah. Right. Very much. Like put a lot of people in an enclosed space and then you have like Atomic Blondes like we did that on a staircase or whatever.

You know, like we're going to find different versions of an enclosed space the marvel netflix shows would each have one per season that was basically the big moment yes daredevil had the most yeah yes and i'm sure iron fist had one because i watched all of that one yeah the elevator opens up and his smile yeah and then to cut to then the elevator is very clever to not give us another action sequence. To be like, you get it. The arrow box that I got is the elevator. That's cool. And it's like, the box is split vertically down the middle

and you open it up and then it's just him. It's pretty good packaging design. Something else I appreciate, you know, we talked about, he does look cool. He gets to do cool action stuff. He gets to beat up some dudes in the beginning, you you know randomly just to try out but I like that even though it is established that he has been like shadowboxing and punching a wall for I don't know what 10 of those 15 years or something like somewhat long time that really

his like superpower is just like this intense determination and not caring about anything else you know like that is the thing that actually gets him through this, is just a full willingness to dive into a group of, like, ten dudes and be like, let's just get through this. He needs to know why, and he needs to have his revenge. How is it then revealed who his captor is? You know, how do we then, because he comes in pretty soon after that. He reveals himself to him.

Is it after that fight scene where he helps him get the cab and then... He's got the bucket hat on and he puts him in the cab. He thinks it's just a friendly pedestrian. Right, right. And he's basically like, look, if you can figure out why I did this, I will kill myself. Yeah, yeah. If not, I will kill Mido. Also, like, that first scene where, like, he picks him up

on the sidewalk and puts him in the cab, he does his own smile. Like, his own, like, sinister smile. And it's just, like, framed, like, very deliberately that you don't see the top of his face first.

Yeah. So this is a real battling of, like, broken smiles. He is very frightening. Yeah. But also very handsome. Yes, very, very attractive. It's my favorite narrative conceit

of this movie is just, like, you assume it's gonna be a film where he's spending two hours to get to the answers. And instead, like halfway through, the guy is like, it's me. It's me and I want you to know it's me. And now I'm testing you. I'm not hiding from you. And the film can cut away to him.

You know, we're not keeping him narratively in the shadows. I've set up this game. Yeah. But now even outside of the controlled prison environment, you're still within this system I've developed and designed. You cut to like his henchmen briefing him on the updates and whatever. And you're just like, what is it this guy's trying to make happen? To what end?

Yeah. His weird penthouse apartment that's also to make happen? To what end? Yeah. Yeah. His weird penthouse apartment that's also just filled with henchpeople all the time. I mean, a nice- The blonde henchman who's kind of the number one henchman. Yeah, yeah.

He's a good henchman. Like, he's like a peroxide blonde henchman. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's always good to have one of those guys where you're like- You gotta have your guy who's like incredible at fighting.

Right. Who's like in a track suit or something. He's got kind of like a thing. Yes. Kind of like, that guy's gonna die last. Yeah. Like, if I incredible at fighting. Right. Who's like in a track suit or something. He's got kind of like a thing. Yeah. Kind of like, that guy's going to die last. Like if I'm doing action. Right.

He's got that great final moment where he just starts weeping. Yeah. He's honestly really, really good. I don't know the actor, but Kim Byung-ok. Yes. At this point is when he has sex with Mito, right?

Yeah, no, I'd say the sex scene is uncomfortable the first time. It's very uncomfortable even before you know the twist. She is in physical discomfort and keeps on communicating that she is actively uncomfortable but wants to do it for him. And also even before they have sex, when she is like, you know, we will have sex eventually. I will give you, I will sing this song so you know that i'm i'm ready yeah but also it may still fight you you've just got to keep pushing through which is an incredibly disturbing thing it is to to say as

a preface all this is because she's like hypnotized right like is that the implication of all of that it's very strange um the now of course it's also intentionally disturbing i feel like because it's going to be played at him later right like if it was it was a very like conventional sex scene it would not like it needs to hit in this insane way at the end of the movie insane way is the point i mean you could just have it be a romantic sex scene in which they're saying i love you and if you replay that, that still is fucked up. It would be really weird. But I think it's just, it's all part of the, like, complete kind of, like, alien quality of this.

The fact that when it's played back, it's her saying, like, I'm in immense pain. Yeah. Is that much worse? Yeah. And then, like, kind of wailing. Right. But I'm doing it for you. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And he still looks like a complete freak, to be clear. He looks horrible. I don't mean to shame. Yeah, right. But he looks very bad. I appreciate that even, I'm forgetting the name of the villain,

even he is disturbed at this point. Going up to this point. Yeah, where he's like, you know, do you think they're in love already? Like, really? Like, was that just like all it took is kind of putting them together? You find out later, like, they could hypnotize him to the point of getting them to meet each other.

He was hoping they could orchestrate the events to make him fall in love. And you sort of get the sense that he's like, that's like four months ahead of schedule. That's like kind of fucked up. It happened this fast. He's not aware of his powers. Yes.

So then, right, he's eventually going to figure out what it is. Now, does he recognize this guy right away? No, he doesn't recognize him at all. No, he doesn't. I mean, he didn't know this guy, really. Right. That's the thing, right?

He just saw him one time and said something, and that's all it is. By the way. He set this chain of events emotionally he has no concept of. You said the thing about our villain threatening to kill himself or saying he promising he will kill if you figure out the mystery I will kill myself but the part of this is that he had a heart surgery and he

has a pacemaker and he asked them to install the pacemaker with a kill switch and a remote control so he can at any time if he wants to push the button and just fucking detonate his life immediately. But that's all like a red herring, right? Yeah, it's made up.

It is made up, right? But the thing is, on the scale of... Because he pushes the button at the end of the movie before the guy is shot himself. Right, and it triggers the tape recorder. I mean, the thing is, that seems totally reasonable compared in the scale of all of the other things that happened in this movie.

You're like, of course the doctor would do that for him. Yeah, why wouldn't he want that? Put it in, I'm what 38 you know fine so uh i think also another important point that i it never quite like come like cemented for me until i saw this most recent time is that uh like uh he doesn't know that he's witnessing incest he just thinks he's seeing when you see the flashback he's 100% he's just girl he knows he's this girl he knows and she's hooking up with a guy and like that is the rumor like it's not like the rumor was ever like this brother and sister no yeah he is not

aware of the the accusation he's making essentially right he has seen something like much more ruinous but actually the all it takes to kind of destroy this girl is a rumor that she was hooking up with someone. Right. She got a phantom pregnancy or a hysterical pregnancy. And thus they thought, you know, it was an incestuous pregnancy and she killed herself. And that's why he's doing all of this. And that's what's going on. Yes.

Oh, boy. Yes. Oh boy. Right. And so as punishment, he has tricked him into fucking his daughter. That's right. He is. And so it's like this movie builds to a final half hour. That's all basically in this like spa apartment. Right.

While she's being held by one of the henchmen at his or her grimy place. No, she's back at the hotel room. Where is she? So, like, Desu takes her to the prison, the hotel prison, because he thinks that now the

hotel guy is on his side, like the enemy of my enemy. So he's like, this will be a safe place. Right. His hand. Oh, right. There's that whole sequence also where the hotel guy's on his side like the enemy of my enemy so he's like this will be a safe place right his hand oh right there's the right there's that whole sequence also where the hotel guy's about to kill him right and then gets paid a giant suitcase of money to not do it and then later they get his hand delivered with the ring on it yes um so and she says something to him when he's now got the fake hand that his hand rotted they threw it out but they gave him the ring they're like we took the ring off. Here you go. So sick. Yeah.

So that's why he's like, this will be a good place to keep her. She'll be safe here. And just good memories. Good time. Right, exactly. She'll just like being here. That's what my pandemic apartment felt like. I had the same thought. It's hard not to, you know, think about

being locked inside. Like sitting there getting delivery and watching TV. And that was, you know, obviously our experiences during the pandemic were exactly like Desu's experience as an old boy. The last half, I just feel like you're watching this movie and you're like, there will be some kind of epic

combat or something. And this movie just completely subverts expectations every time of like you're not going to know the twist and then he's like oh wait i think i figured out the twist yeah oh you reminded me yeah i knew this guy or i saw this guy and like then and then so you're like oh okay so we figure out the mystery here i guess now there's just gonna be a final showdown and say he shows up at this guy's insane loft with water. I just think it's a cool set.

Yeah. No, I do too. It doesn't look very homey, really, but, you know. The shell, you know, the things that open and close were filled with clothes, you know. Oh, yeah. He has an incredible wardrobe. Yes. Also, his shower's kind of in the middle of the place, too.

I like the vibe. He's like, what do you mean? Why does the shower need to be in a special room? He's kind of in the middle of the place, too. I like the vibe. He's like, what do you mean? Why does the shower need to be in a special room? He's got a loft living as a way to go. A tight tush, and then he's got a tattoo

of a knife pointing down to his crack. He does. Yeah, he does. No, it's a tramp stamp, basically. Yeah, but as you said, his closet is like four pillars. It's like Darth Vader's

anti-chamber thing or whatever. He steps in the middle of it and splits apart. It kind of unfolds it, yeah. And he's basically like, yeah, you figured it out, but what you haven't figured out, obviously, is that I brainwashed you into, you know, having sex with your daughter. The purple box inside is a photo album

that starts with pictures of him and his kid and his wife and then her getting a little bit older. And you just immediately are like Jesus fucking Christ. You know it and I think he does a really good job of playing that he knows it. Right? Like the terror with each page he flips as

you start to see her look more and more like the woman he met until you get to the photos of them together and then here's the thing. This performance, which is astounding. It's a really wonderful performance. It reminds me a lot of, we talked about William Peterson in Manhunter,

where like this is a guy who's just gone. From the moment the movie starts, before things even like... Right, he's already completely ruined. He's just dead, right? He's dead inside. It's a thing I think Jeremy Strong is incredibly good at doing.

Succession just ended, so it's top of mind. mind sure but there's so many of those scenes where you're just like he is a man just dreamed of life he is so traumatized by what's really good at the right the kind of like vacant right you know yeah so most of this performance in old boy from the time he gets out of imprisonment i think he has that really well well down with spurts of mania on top of it, right? And then this reveal happens and you're like, oh, I thought he was doing poorly before. The degree to which he just completely like collapses behind the eyes after this, you know? Well, and especially because right before, there's this moment where you're like, you don't need to go to the apartment. Like, you could just go, you know? Like, you guys could just go off like you're like you don't need to go to the apartment like you could just go you know like you you guys could just go off like you're you don't need to

finish this story put it together um he's got his answer yeah and he is like more alive i think his hair may even be brushed like right uh you know and you're like oh you are starting to become a person like aside from just a revenge monster yes yeah and then in contrast then when he just like shatters right right and it's just everything it's like it's the like the seven stages of grief all in fast motion right it's it's bargaining it's anger there's only five stages of grief yeah a couple in there yeah yeah yeah he really takes us on a journey cutting your tongue out right yeah yeah yeah i mean he really goes there First he's like hey I'm sorry

And you know The villain's sort of like well Kind of was hoping for more than that Then he's like I'll be your dog I'll like you know I'll slop her all over you I'll do whatever you want He's like getting there He's like fine I'll cut my tongue out

Cause he gets a phone call from her And she's like hey they handed me this box should I open it Which. He's like, fine, I'll cut my tongue out. Because he gets a phone call from her and she's like, hey, they handed me this box. Should I open it? Yeah. Which is that's like another layer down of like, oh, now he just seems another part of him just died inside the prospect of her finding out. What does he need to do to prevent her from opening the box?

So he cuts out his own tongue. I mean, that's what I did think of that. Like, it's got the same kind of vibe You really don't want to look in there But you're probably going to I do think I like Brad Pitt And I like the film Seven But I think of that

Moment in Seven As kind of like Pitt had a ceiling to his skill In the 90s What's in the box Where it's sort of on the edge Yeah. It's like, what's in the bag? You know, like where it's sort of on the edge of parody, what he's doing.

It's very watchable. It is. It's very watchable. And the moment is so gripping. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas this guy really sells me on like, yeah,

I believe it. This guy's like, I got to lose the time. He has never been so afraid also in his life. You know, honestly, hard to think of a worse situation to be placed in, in that moment.

Yeah. That's the great tragedy part of it, too, where it's just like, I've imagined a scenario so complex and fucked up. Yes. You can't believe it. Right. The whole story is just about this scenario. Yes. Stuff will happen, but it's really that I thought of something so crazy.

Right. And the movie will end there. The story ends there. Yeah. And of course, as opposed to eye stuff which Oedipus you know yes he does he does not want to he goes for not tooth stuff but mouth stuff yeah yeah this is a real mouth stuff movie um Oedipus he's crazy that guy he's like oh no married my mom killed my dad eyes gotta go bad luck um i learned about oedipus too young yeah someone told

me like the plot of oedipus when i was a kid and i was like what yeah what the fix his eyes out yeah um that really distressed me as a kid and this movie distressed me as a grown man which is what i am uh and uh yeah then fucking you know wujing kills himself He plays the as we said pacemaker doesn't work Just turns on the Plays the tape makes him listen And Woojin then reflects on his Sister's suicide in a very Extended and kind of distressing flashback

Of him like holding her Right because there's the thing he remembers about like Wait someone she died Falling off a bridge by accident Who took the photo Right And then you see the flashback of him about like, wait, someone, she died falling off a bridge by accident. Right. Who took the photo. Right. And then you see the flashback of him desperately trying to keep her from falling over.

And then he chews himself. Well, yes. So he's got his tongue taken out, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which he's doing as an act of, I don't know, sacrifice? Penance, whatever. Sure.

But then it does have this odd effect of just like, well, now I have an insurance policy. I know for a fact I will never tell her that I'm her dad. Right. It's impossible. It can't be done. You cut to him in the middle of like a snowy forest. He's with the hypnotist lady. Yep.

And he's just like, hypnotize me again. And you almost think, oh, is he trying to forget that any of this ever happened? He still wants to know her. At the end of the movie, it's the two of them together.

Him smiling. He can't speak. What do we think? That scene is so weird, too. It's very weird. They're surrounded by mountains. I think they shot that in New Zealand. Weird.

So they had to like travel somewhere to have snow and mountains. So it really looks so removed from all the other contexts. It's a drastic shift. It is very dreamlike. Well, and just the complexity of him smiling. And then he sort of goes into this grimace right at the end. And you're like, how much does he remember? What is his state at this point? Did this work? Yeah. I just into this grimace right at the end and you're like, how much does he remember? Like,

you know, what, what is his state? Did this work? Yeah. I just love that. It's his intent. I want to forget all of this so I can date her again without feeling

conflicted. Or is it, I want to be clean of all of this. I think date is definitely not the word, no matter what's going to be happening. I wouldn't call it dating. They're not going to like go to the movies a couple of times. But it's very,

it definitely implied they are going to continue to have a romantic relationship. I think so. They will be bonded. They're going steady. Yeah, he does give her his pen at the end of the movie. He carries her books. I mean, he's an old boy, so he's got pens. She's his best gal.

It's been from my school. Funny story about my school. There's this one guy who has sex with his sister. I totally forgot forgot about this somehow this memory is getting unclu oh no i mean i do love as much as there's just so much weirdness and like surrounding this the idea of being like um he makes that list of enemies you know early on where he's like and he a lot he comes up with a whole bunch of people like all of the people i've wronged right but the idea he's clearly a piece of shit he's clearly like right but i i do appreciate the idea of just being like you just really mess some up someone's life without knowing in that like just tiny way uh you didn't know and that like that person just hates you so much back to how offhand the comment

was yeah right where his friends like that girl are you sure and he's like i don't know offhand the comment was. Right. Whereas Friends is like, that girl? Are you sure? And he's like, I don't know. He's not like, no, bro. It was definitely that girl. Yeah, he is very much like, yeah, I saw them kissing or something. Right. Yeah, there's nothing in it where you'd be like, someone would

really need to atone for that. I forgot to mention in the flashback of them fooling around that she takes out her hand mirror and she watches, like, basically, she wants to see her own facial expression reacting. Yeah, there's a lot going

on with her. We only see her very briefly, but we learned she was both very devout and also yeah, had some stuff going on personally. Her scenes are powerful. For sure. I feel like it's just one of these movies that's like sending the audience out in silence.

Yeah. And like stunned silence. Yeah. That's the vibe I kind of remember. It's audacious. It's very audacious. And the most audacious thing to do after that twist is to sort of present what is, quote unquote, a happy ending for the characters. Right.

Like they figured it out. They get to not be haunted by the terrible thing they're going to continue doing. Yeah, of course. And she never gets roped in to even have a choice in the matter. Nope. No, she is lacking in agency. Yeah. I mean, everyone in this movie, I guess, is hypnotized and lacking in agency.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, everyone in this movie, I guess, is hypnotized and lacking in agency. Yeah, yeah. And the villain is, you know, just lost in this thing that he will never get over. He doesn't have a lot of agency. He's rich and he does stuff. He's able to make a lot of shit happen. But he's literally obsessed with one moment. His life basically was ended in high school.

Yeah. And that's why he kills himself, I assume. He's just kind of like, I did it. I don't know what else was there for me. Right. So here is my question. Does this movie actually say something that you feel is profound about vengeance? For me, no.

And I think this is maybe why I'm more icked out than sort of affected by it. Whereas I do think, like, not to just go back to it, but like, You Were Never Really Here is a movie that I do think gets at something profound in the human condition about the worst things

in the world, right? Yeah. And trauma and the reason why we deny horrible things happening because it actually takes more to engage with the worst aspects of humanity

than just ignore them it eats at your soul right uh i don't i don't know what this movie is ultimately saying outside of like it's a son of a bitch it'll get you in the end um i yeah i don't know i mean like this just got a lot of interesting ideas about like can you so what he did was wrong he slept with his sister he essentially sort of molests his sister the villain something generally frowned upon

she is the older one they make a point of saying right so unclear what the origins there is a strange dynamic to them in general but he did this and it's like you know the the there's this like crazy sort of literary like highfalutin very greek tragedy-esque concept of like can i force my you know my sin onto others like is that the like craziest most pure vengeance

imaginable um where it's like he kind of is purging himself of what he did by making someone else do it. It's a very interesting concept. It's very interesting to think about. But yes, I do struggle with old boy getting past just like the absolute mania of it. Yeah, I would say the same. I think also we never get the sense that he feels bad about, you know,

in fact, he makes a point of saying that he doesn't. Like, they, you know, that aside from… He certainly is not repentant about what he did. Right, right. Like, I think… Woojin. Yeah, he is kind of like, we loved each other. Like, the problem was society, you know, like that, like, it was…

But he does know that making someone else do it will not make them happy. Right. Exactly. No, and also, he will not be able to live with himself immediately. Right. Yes. But he just, I mean be able to live with himself immediately. Right. Yes. But he just, I mean, he clearly has nothing. That's it.

He says, like, the only thing he was living for is this guy he kept, you know, in a filing cabinet for 15 years. He is rich and successful. It does feel like, I mean, none of this is, like, colored in, but my takeaway is he became a billionaire out of spite just to have the resources to fuck with this guy. Yeah. I mean, it's mentioned that they come from money in the beginning. Sure. They went to a nice school. Yeah.

But you see him even, there's like a part where they're walking into his penthouse apartment and the guy who's with him is talking to him about some business matter. And you're like, oh, you're still doing business stuff. And then meanwhile, when you're embarking on the end game here of your you know decade and a half revenge plot um yeah i have also trouble i mean i think there is something emotionally in this that feels very resonant to me of just kind of like that that incoherent and also like ill-advised right all consuming kind of blustering rage like this thing that kind of drives these characters

despite any rational like any rationality to do the most fantastical form of revenge imaginable at the expense but like yeah it's so outrageous that I have a lot of trouble connecting to it emotionally

in any sense in any deeper sense I just how do you feel about Greek tragedy like how do you feel about like Medea or connecting to it emotionally in any sense, any deeper sense. I just, it, how do you feel about Greek tragedy? Like, how do you feel about like Medea or you're like one of those masks that's kind of frowning. Not the smiling one. I don't know.

Like, how do I feel? Like, I feel okay about it. Like whenever I, whenever I watch Greek tragedy. I give it a seven out of 10. Yeah. Yeah.

B plus. Yeah. Uh, no, like whenever I watch, you know, like a restaging of Medea or, yeah. Like, I, I also have that, like where I'm walking out,+. No, like, whenever I watch, you know, like a restaging of Madea or Oedipus,

like, I also have that, like, where I'm walking out, where I'm like, oh, it's interesting how they staged that or what an interesting performance that person gave. But I'm not walking out being like, man, Madea really, you know, obviously you can think, I've studied those a little bit academically. You can think about all of that

and all the archetypes that, like, linger throughout literature and all that. But I'm not walking out exactly being like, I really identified with Oedipus when he was fated to this doom. Well, yeah. Well, I was just going to say, I think there are things where you're like this kind of apocalyptic grief of like killing your children, you know, in rage. And then also at the same time like you know like howling your grief about losing them like there's there's something there it is as as like extreme as that is so primal right as extreme as that is feels still more like understandable to

me than saying like a guy hypnotized me to fuck my daughter yeah exactly like oh no i was in a hotel i married my mother and I killed my father out go the eyeballs like I just like it's just not there's something there that is just not yeah this is clicking something for me though is it eye stuff related?

no well it's like it's clicking stuff for me just go Sam Neill I don't think this movie really has anything to say about like revenge and the human condition in like our real world. I do think this may maybe this movie is more in conversation with the way revenge is presented dramatically. Sure.

You know, I think if anything, this movie isn't commenting on something in us. It is commenting on the way like the revenge-o-matic, which is, like, such a fucking sturdy sub-genre. The grandiosity of it. Right. It's the easiest way to fucking set up a movie is, this person did this thing to this other person, the rest of the movie, they gotta cut through whoever they need to. It was so bad that you totally get why.

And also, they deserve to do whatever they want in this. They are totally justified. Right. And we, like, as audiences, will accept some pretty perverse things on screen, right? If they kill John Wick's dog, a clearly reprehensible act, then we will watch him murder one million people and continue

to root for him, right? 100%. And this movie is sort of cranking all of those elements up to the extreme where it's like the cause of the need for revenge, the form the revenge takes, what he does to get through to the worst guy. Everyone in this, you're just like, none of this is like fun, right? Even though this movie does have some genuinely like thrilling sequences, he's kind of like perverting the revenge thriller. To speak to like, you know, if the stripped down version of this were happening in real life, you would find it upsetting.

But if you put it on screen, it seems fun. So the only way to make it upsetting on screen is to make it the most upsetting series of things that have ever happened, period. To show you this is all bad. I think that's a really smart read. And I think like, especially the way the movie, I would say the first like half of the movie is pretty fun to watch. If like, you know, and then the second the movie is pretty fun to watch if like you know and then the

second half is like not fun to watch and increasingly unfun but yeah the way especially like one the motivation is so unsatisfying when you actually learn like what happened but also that then the deflation at the end of like any anything resembling satisfaction there's no coming back yes because even like the the revenge thrillers that are a little bit morally conflicted, it feels like the way it's morally conflicted is the end of the movie. The guy finishes his task and he sits down in a chair and then he's like, what next? Right. Or like, what did I do? Right.

Who knows? Can I go back? What was it all worth? Can I go? Well, I mean, even the stuff that's talked about in this movie where he's like, can I go back to a normal life after this? And then by the end of this, you're like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know that you should. Fundamentally, there's no way to go back to a normal life after this. And then by the end of this, you're like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know that you should. Fundamentally, there's no way to go back.

And he instead is like, I'd rather forget what I know to go back in a way that's really unfair to her, right? I might have just talked myself into liking this movie 20% more than I previously did. I think that's a great read. I think that's like a really smart way to engage with it. Yes.

And I also, the thing about engaging or like liking this movie is I really do respect it as a totemic thing. Absolutely. It's like sort of just like a signpost on the road of cinema. Yes. That actually did really change things. I know that was not the intention. It's like Park Chan-wook was like, all right, I'm going to freak these Americans out but that's always the case with these movies the movies that are huge sea changes in any industry in any culture in any genre or whatever are never coming

in with the like we're gonna blow it all up often it's more like can I get away with this I was just trying to do my little weird thing in the corner this film was I'll just give you a little more context before we play the box of this game slightly troubled production it was budgeted at 2.8 million.

It ended up costing five. So I think it was like really over budget, over schedule. Like, you know, like 40 some odd days and it went up to 70 something. Right. Yeah. The producer in the documentary said 48 days to 72.

Right. He's like, I, in my mind, the main two jobs of the producer to keep the movie on schedule and on budget. So in that sense, I absolutely failed as producer of Old Boy. Right.

I think his producer too, Lim Jung-hyung, was sort of the enforcer and the yeller and all that. I don't know. It seems like it was a very dramatic set. They did say. There's a lot of fighting. There was some roundtable with a bunch of the crew members talking about the park,

and they were like, he's not like a yeller he's a very intense person sure and you are on set all the time kind of terrified of him and like desperate to earn his approval but he's like never wielding his anger or his judgment around

and then one of the guys goes like yeah the worst moment the moment you're trying to avoid above all else is him just sighing right if you do something or present an element to him or he calls right everyone's like jesus fucking christ they're like never choose you out but that's right but that's enough that's enough too and obviously he seems to just command a lot of respect so people want to make him happy uh the big one was initially not going to be a one-er.

They switched to a one-er out of laziness. They were like, can we just do this in one shot rather than having to set up a bunch of shots? Love that. Love that. And he says, Park says, like the fatigue we felt making this movie, I feel like is everywhere on screen. Like everyone does feel exhausted.

I'd agree with that. It's his first collaboration with Chung Chun Hoon Chung Chun Hoon Who is his cinematographer Going forward And what else They have a very very close relationship And now he's a Hollywood guy

Who shot Uncharted That's insane It is really weird The Green Thing, you mentioned that And then this film Was a huge hit Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance had done badly Old Boy was

A big success And then of course goes to Cannes After experiencing success in Korea Wins the Grand Prix Lots of rumors that it was the choice for the Palm Yes And he had submitted Mr. Vengeance To Cannes and gotten rejected So it was the choice for the palm yes um and uh he had submitted mr vengeance to canon gotten rejected so it was like a real like turnaround okay for him i think in terms of like

you know whatever is the american theatrical release that fall no it's in 2005 things really were slow back right you know what i mean uh, of course, riding high off of certain other Asian releases like Audition or whatever, the Asia Extreme label. They put it out in Britain and then it makes it to America in 2005. But it was

not a big hit in America at all. It made like a million dollars and a very divided review. That was probably seen as a success in that moment. What's the most we can get out of a movie like this yeah um but it gets a lot of reviews in america that i feel like he often gets which is basically like this is too visceral or too stylish uh-huh right don't you feel like that's often what critics you know contemporary critics would react to with him also he was like also. Violence, right? That was, for a long time,

he was... There was a stereotype of that's what his thing was, which is never, I think, how he would describe himself. Right. But Manola tore this movie to shreds, saying too snazzy, essentially.

But, you know, it did... I really do think it's its tale was very very long like oh yeah especially that the home video the dvd market it was like this was like classic of that right this is a movie that really benefited from like peak dvd i think that exact like bell curve of like 2004 to 2007 is when suddenly like DVDs were omnipresent. Prices got a lot cheaper. People started having like much bigger collections. Like more casual film fans weren't owning their three favorite movies. They were owning like 30 movies they like.

Right. Because things were suddenly like $8 at Best Buy. And yeah, this is a movie that just exploded there right um so let's do the box office game for march 25th 2005 wild old boy opening at number 48 basically a full year after con um yeah exactly so i was yeah i was so fucking hyped up for this because i was like why aren't they letting me see this goddamn movie? Well, so wait, you didn't want to see a hilarious family romantic

comedy about a young man meeting his fiance's family? March 2005. Well, I did see this also that same weekend. Guess who? Guess who? New in theaters this week. Number one, $20 million. Not good. Bernie and Ashton. Yes. The dynamic duo. It's a shame they never got to retame

Have you seen Guess Who? I have not The racially swapped Guess Who's coming to dinner With more gags And more Ashton Kutcher Far more gags I think of Ashton Kutcher as a Sidney Poitier As a figure

His nobility, his grace, his gentle touch I also saw guess who in theaters i do not remember very well but i don't remember like i remember being a bad i i saw i think i saw every i was bernie mack i was very pro vehicle me too i loved bernie mack one of the funniest people to ever live and an underrated actor and he never really got the vehicle he deserved no he certainly got vehicles and he like worked and he had movies Yeah like Mr. 3000 Even like Head of State

Where he's like a pretty strong second lead Yeah Love Bernie Mac Guess who directed by Kevin Rodney Sullivan Don't really Okay alright number two Someone underperforming A sequel to a major

Comedy hit Scooby-Doo Two Monsters Unleashed Underperforming sequel to a major Comedy hit Miss Congeniality Two Armed and Dangerous Armed and Fabulous Sorry I feel like that, this is the moment where Sandra Bullock's

Career seems to be in the toilet This is also the year that she is In Crash, and when she was in Crash. Uh-huh. And when she was in Crash, it kind of felt like, huh, like she has to do something like this. You know, like kind of... So racist she falls down a flight of stairs. She is so racist that she

falls down a flight of stairs. Is Lake House the same year? The Lake House is fucking IMDB with its fucking like putting the producer credits first. Get the fuck out of here. Is 06. So next year. Premonition. Premonition is 07. And then in 09. This is a bad run.

In 09 she made a certain proposal. I know. And she won us all back. How do you feel about Miss Congeniality? One or two? You know, I don't think I ever saw two. One is pretty good. Yeah, like I feel pretty positive towards one. You know, she's always been good at kind of physical comedy the whole thing with sandy bullock to me is when i was a teen i did not appreciate her i thought of her as kind of

like a b-list star b-tier star whatever and you re-watch most of those movies now and you were like this is very very solid like you know two weeks notice or whatever you're just like this is good there's that thing after the Heat was such a big hit and they were like, well, obviously sequel and Sandra Bullock is like, I am so burned by Speed 2 and Miss Congeniality 2, I will never do a sequel again under any circumstances.

Good for her. Yeah, I like that. Go for it, Sandy. And also, good call. We didn't need the Heat 2. No, it would have been an easy paycheck and she was just like, I'm not fucking doing that again Alright, speaking of sequels Number three of the box office, dropping from number one The week before

No, it's a horror sequel It's a horror sequel And weirdly it's directed by the director Of the original film It's The Ring 2 A film that is one of the most incoherent Hollywood films ever released Like one of those things where youherent Hollywood films ever released.

Like one of those things where you're like, oh my God. Like no one did a pass here or whatever. So weird. The first, the ring is like improbably great. The Verbinski ring is a truly good move. Phenomenal. Yes. And then when they had Nakata do the, oh, that's kind of a clever idea.

Bring him in. Sure. And I think it's partly that the ring ends perfectly. Like, the story is resolved so well. You know, it is, there's not a lot of space for a sequel. The ring also has, like, the bonus final act where you think the movie is resolved and they're like, there's another 30 minutes to go,

which kind of functions like its own sequel. But then how do you tack a sequel onto that? I also feel like, you know, the ring they there's a lot of stuff in the Japanese ring which is a great movie obviously but that they kind of discarded certain elements of like psychic powers and all of that

in the Americanization and I think yeah you know I think those could have ring to is like sissy SpaceX here she's got a bird's nest on her head and she's crazy you know like it's a lot of like whatever and that movie kind of it. You know, like it's a lot of like whatever. And that movie kind of, it did okay, but it like, it did not do the business of the first. Okay. Number four, animated film.

Terrible. Fuck. Home on the Range? No. No, that's 2004. It's not Meet the Robinsons. That's 2007. Is it a Disney?

It's not a Disney. Is it a DreamWorks? Yes. Oh no, actually, no. It's a Fox. It's a Fox. It's a Fox. It's a Fox and it's not an Ice Age. Not an Ice Age. No, it's a

one-off. It's a one-off and it's a robots? Robots. I re-watched Robots recently. Why? I don't remember why. Why did you do that? I don't remember what prompted me. It's bad. What's interesting is I...

It's kind of the last Robin Williams doing a voice in a cartoon as well. The design in that movie is unbelievable. It looks incredible. It's all William Joyce. Right. It's written by David Lindsay-Aber. Sure. It has this crazy stacked cast.

It is one of the only animated films, certainly of that size, I've seen where I'm like, I think they fucked with this in the edit, where you can tell, like, entire plot lines were lifted out. They put pop songs over it that sequences were not designed around. Right. It just, it feels similarly kind of

incoherent. Character design's great in it. Haven't seen Robots. Ben, have you seen Robots? No. Number five at the box office. Comedy with a big star who endures to this day. Scooby-Doo 2, Monsters incoherent character designs greatness haven't seen robots ben have you seen robots no number five of the box office comedy with a big star who endures to this day scooby-doo two monsters unleashed no he's the biggest comedy star in hollywood old scoobert that movie came out in 2004 fuck that's actually a check no this film is sort of a forgotten thing. It is a family-friendly vehicle for an action star that was a hit. It is The Pacifier. People forget that The Pacifier made money.

It was a big titty hit. It was a big old hit for Vin Diesel. And yet it was kind of like, hmm, you lost the juice, huh, buddy? This is when he went crawling back to the Fast and Furious. Not that long after this. It's a real... This is four years before he goes crawling back.

Yeah, well, what happens is there's something in between. He does Babylon AD. Okay. Which is the real Nadir. Yeah. And I feel like there's one other thing in this era

I'm freaking out. He doesn't work much. Yeah, he doesn't. I remember like it was. Because obviously Riddick is the year before Crackles of Riddick, right? It's Find Me Guilty 5 or 6.

Oh, maybe, yeah, that's in there. Yeah, okay. So it's Find Me Guilty and then Babylon's the one where he's done. Babylon AD is 2008 yeah that's in there yeah okay so let's find me guilty and then babylon's the one where he's babylon ad is 2008 and that's one of those movies that i think sat on the shelf for a while or whatever yeah he really just didn't work much and riddick really kind of blew it up for him right six is the tokyo drift cameo oh absolutely i appreciated you know

fast x is a disaster but i appreciate your defense of his commitment in your review which i do think is important oh yeah he he's acting so hard he's acting harder than he is that's true he's not phoning it in in that way now some things were phoned in absolutely almost everything on a fucking tin can phone right i meant i mentioned this in the review but the like part early on where he's like at home looking out the window and he hears a sound and he whips his head around so much that people laughed in the audience. He's undeniably got a lot of power on screen and he

commits very hard to everything he does. The Pacifier, though, is a weird example of what you're saying, like a hit that hurt someone's career. A hit where it's like, this is a big bummer. It makes $130 million or whatever, sold entirely on his name. It is popular, and everyone's like,

okay, we're done with you. Number six is Hitch. Huge hit, obviously. Number seven, the Bruce Willis thriller Hostage, which I definitely saw in theaters. I remember, I think my dad asked me, like, hey, was that any good? And I was like, the opening credits are kind of cool.

And he was like, that's a bad sign. Like you think that was the best thing to remember? I think that came up in a box office game semi recently. And your hint was it's a movie where the title is just a thing. And I guessed it in one because it's the most fucking first draft title ever. Hostage. Yeah. Sounds like a Jason Bateman comedy.

Yeah, right. I'm'm a hostage he's doing the jason bateman poster face you've also got ice princess is that michelle tractenberg uh ice getting drama uh-huh disney film falls in love with the boy who drives the zamboni sure uh be cool yeah we'll cover it someday probably on the fucking the fucking Elmore Leonard. Elmore Leonard, sure. Yeah, that came close. And number 10 at the box office has just won the Academy Award for Best Picture. Million dollar baby. What's it up to at this point? 94, and it's going to make 100. So it's basically done.

Wow. Yeah. Wow. Allison, anything you want to plug? No. Oh, your writing's great. Everyone should read everything you write. Yeah.

You can follow my dog on Instagram write you can follow my dog on Instagram follow the dog on Instagram everything you're writing over on New York Magazine and Vulture your Fast Text review I thought was particularly good I appreciate you saying that and I said this to you backstage when we were at the film spotting show but your

your Top Gun piece is this all a death dream a take that is usually exhausting. A take that fired up Bill Simmons. We talked about it. The amount of people I know who are not caught up in the fucking film Twitter world who cited that. Did you read that fucking piece?

It is ironclad. The logic of that theory whatever you, I hate to use the word theory these days because it becomes so loaded. The logic of that argument is ironclad. But I feel like it crossed barriers. It's honestly the best thing I wrote last year. It was an incredible piece. I highly recommend it to anyone.

It's a really good movie. Talk about rock solid. Yep. It's kind of the Scooby-Doo two monsters unleashed of our time. Allison, far too long since we had you on before. We'll have you on again sooner. Yeah, it was a pleasure.

Thanks for coming, Allison. Talking about, oh boy, with us on Blank Check. I don't know why I'm doing this. The oldest of the boys. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and

helping to produce the show. Thank you to AJ Barty for our social media and helping to produce the show. Thank you to AJ McKee and Alex Barron for our editing, JJ Birch for our research, Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song, Pat Reynolds, Joe Bowen for our artwork. You can go to blankcheckpod.com for links to some real

nerdy shit, including our Patreon Blank Check Special Features, where we do commentaries on film series and other sorts of bonus stuff. So we're doing the Oceans franchise, including the Rat Pack and the Eight, with the three Soderberghs in between.

And we'll be doing an episode on Lil' Drummer Girl. Put the TV on the Patreon side where it belongs. Gotta start watching that. Free membership on the Patreon. New episode.. Gotta start watching that. Free membership on the Patreon. New episode. Old episodes

unlocked from three years ago every ten days. What's coming up there, Ben? We have Hanging Up with Sonia. Oh. Our Efron series.

Great. Tune in next week for Sympathy for Lady Vans. That's right. Yep. And as always, never, ever, ever open a box.