Blank Check with Griffin & David - Paprika with Emily Yoshida

Episode Date: May 26, 2024

Come join the dream parade, folks - we’re talking about Paprika! Mother of the Blankies Emily Yoshida is with us to chat about Satoshi Kon’s final film - a film that FEELS like a swan song especially in hindsight. In this episode, we address the elephant in the room (those Inception comparisons), dive into the serialized story Paprika was based on, and Griffin makes the important connection between Paprika’s “DC mini” device and this being a “BC mini” (series). Plus, we establish 2024 as “The Year of Dreams” (Kon and Lynch on Blank Check!!), and Emily, Ben, and Griffin discuss their experience attending a special screening of Clifford with Martin Short himself.   Check out Shogun on FX and listen to Shogun: The Official Podcast hosted by Emily   Read Emily’s writing on Paprika  Please follow Hollywood Entertainment (the organizers of the Clifford screening mentioned on the episode)for upcoming screenings in LA (including a new residency at Heavy Manners Library), regular streaming programs (accessible everywhere), and a to-be-announced return to New York this fall.  https://www.instagram.com/hollyw00dentertainment  https://www.hollywood-entertainment.com/  This episode is sponsored by:  Storyblocks (storyblocks.com/check)  Bombas (bombas.com/check CODE: CHECK) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram!  

["Blank Jack with Griffin and David"] Podcasts and dreams are similar. They're areas where the repressed conscious mind escapes. There you go. Now see, it's usually I end the sentence with podcasts and this time it started. Okay. But when they say that line in the movie, it felt like, of course, they're talking about the internet.

Are they? You're nodding silently. I'm trying to remember the exact line. The internet and dreams are similar. Right. Are areas where the the oppressed conscious mind escapes. Um, no, the internet's not like that at all, though. No. The internet is very...

Chill. Chill. Chill. Normal. And regulated. I would say, yeah, it is, um, it is, uh, the opposite of repression. Whatever that means for you. Yeah, it's of repression. Whatever that means for you. Yeah, it's a 2006 statement.

The net. Right. I mean, a certain way I think the statement is still true. Yeah, it's all just, you know, it's all out there. We can't control it. Everyone's mental state's colliding with everyone else's, right? In ways that we can't predict. Yes.

Good ways. Great. Major smile. The best thing is when people share a dream. Hey, major smile. I mean, I love letting my subconscious go wild on Elon Musk's internet. Yes. He's finally made it.

I mean, this is what I love about Elon's internet. If I can just take a moment here. Yes, let's talk about Elon Musk. One comedy is now legal again. You want to highlight this section for the nation. Comedy is now legal again. A. Fuck yeah. And B, my unconscious can finally roam free.

You know? It was all bottled up before. Elon took it off the leash. Yeah, woof woof. And my unconscious is making jokes all the time because that's legal again. If there's anything I know about you right now, it's that you're funnier and happier online than ever. Correct.

We're laughing. Just strolling through the fields making jokes. We're laughing. We're having a great time. What is this? Where are we? This room, it feels so familiar and yet somehow odd. The dimensions are shifting in real time.

A DC Mini? David, we're at the end of a BC Mini. Wow. Look at that. Did you just have that in the back pocket the whole time? No, no, no, no. It hit me in real time. Your subconscious is full of jokes.

Because it's legal again! We are sadly at the end of a BC Mini. Why do I say sadly? It's been a great run, but unfortunately this is a career that ended far too soon. Yes, true. This is the final film of Satoshi Kon, who we've been covering on this podcast.

This podcast, Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. There you go, I'm David. It's a podcast about filmography as directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear

and sometimes they parade, maybe. Sure. Led by the refrigerator in the mailbox. It's another thing that feels like the internet is that parade. Just cacophony of products. Yes, products and memes and half-remembered clips. This has been a mini-series on the film,

Sustashi Kon, as you said, and this is sadly his final film he ever made. Do you wanna say the name of it? Well, the name of this BC Mini has been Paprecast. Podprecast. Podprecast. Are you kidding me? Of course.

Podprecast, I fucked it up, but Podprecast. He always forgets, that's why I looked at him. And today we're talking about Paprika. That's right. That's right. Yes. Podpreka, Podpreka. And who is here with us in studio?

This is what I want to talk about. But the mother of blankies herself. She's here! Hello, my children. Hi! FX's Shogun from the FX Shogun podcast. That's right. Yeah, we see you starting a rival podcast.

Yeah, I mean, clearly it's, I'm steering the ship there. Not going to as well. Yeah. David, you had a point you wanted to make right before we started recording. So this is Emily Ishida is here. The great Emily Ishida. It's me. It's Emily Ishida.

Hi. When do you think was Emily's last in-person episode with us, Griffin Newman? Answer please. Was it Mad Max Fury Road? That's correct. Oh, damn. That's true.

Mad Max Fury Road. And that was literally weeks before COVID. I was here February of 2020. That's correct. It was when you were staying with me. You were visiting town. It was recorded in February. There was a giant audio boom problem.

Right. So we lost like 40 minutes of that episode. That's right. Yep. That was a real nightmare for me. Yes. That was also when I introduced C. Jeans, of course. Fuck, I forgot about that.

And that made it? We didn't lose that part? That's what caused the other guys to go away. Thankfully, we're able to hold onto that part of the episode. Right. Unfortunately, Morton Joe was never mentioned once in the episode. We lost all of that, but C. Jeans made the cut. Like, that... And can you name Emily's episode since then?

Yeah, I think I can. Okay, well then. Then I won't even speak on it anymore. I mean, look, we established some rules on this show in general. People can't be uncon... Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, on this podcast, try to not have the same guests appear in consecutive series. Yeah, it's kind of like an unwritten sort of baseball rule. Let alone appear twice on the same series. Sure. Emily is the mother blankie. She breaks the rules.

I'm breaking all the rules. Right. So on that same series, main feed, she also did Babe on Patreon. She did. One of my favorites, honestly, that we've ever recorded. Yep. That was early, early COVID too. That was an early one. Yeah, it was my first Zoom one, I think I ever did with them. Correct?

Yeah. That was an early Zoom for us as well. And then we did a very normal episode. I'm not gonna go in order here. Oh, okay, fine. Dark Star. Yeah, okay, so that one, at least Ben was with Emily. Yeah, that was kind of nice. That was technically a half in person.

Ben made a pilgrimage to Casa Yoshida. But there was one in between. The extremely normal one was when I downed an entire bottle of wine during the Marwen record because I couldn't believe you guys liked it. I kind of liked that movie. It made me feel like I was going insane. I was also drinking an entire bottle of wine. But I was coming at it I guess from a different angle. I was drinking the bottle of wine, but I was coming at it, I guess, from a different angle. I was drinking the bottle of wine because I liked it so much.

It was celebratory. It was celebratory, yes. I was drinking too, apparently. I think we were already drunk on the Marwan episode, which is why it was so fun. Great episode, probably. Don't remember it. November, December. I was sitting on the floor of my mom's spare room

in North Carolina, like deep, deep holiday season, COVID, holiday season 2020. My wife would have been like eight months pregnant. It was like 10 at night. Super normal. Yeah. Darkstar, though. And then, can you remember the other two?

Two others. Well, Handmaiden was the most recent. Yes. And the one in between would be... Emily made nobody mad with her takes on this episode. I was really, yeah, chill. Oh, oh, the beach. Yeah.

Everybody liked everything I had to say on the beach episode. Everybody had really nice things to say about me personally. Right, right. Well, because the internet... It's important is when people disagree with you, they never make it personal. The internet dreams are similar.

They attack you in your most sensitive spots. So Emily's on here to say that Paprika is a big bag of shit. It'd be funny if you came on and were like, guys, Paprika? No, I guess. So Tasha Cohn is baby. I mean Paprika the character. Like Paprika is baby and not all that, actually. Wow.

Coming in hot. Coming in hot. Coming in hot. Love you guys. Not you, I'm talking to the blankies. I know you don't love me, of course. You have no love for me. Here you are to talk about Paprika. Sort of his opus, we've been discussing this.

Yeah. Even if it's not your favorite of his movies. Just like, you know... I don't know. I actually don't really know what my favorite is, having just watched all of them in preparation for this one. I mean, there's only four of them. There are only four.

I think that in a way that maybe it will become thematically relevant in our discussion down the line, I think that between Perfect Blue and Paprika, you kind of have a balance of everything that's great about Satoshi Kon. That's right. And I think this one has some of that. It kind of reminds me a bit,

especially as like a quote unquote last film, although we can't say that officially on the record yet. It does sort of remind me of Boy in the Heron as Miyazaki's quote unquote last film, although we can't say that officially on the record yet. It does sort of remind me of, of Boy in the Heron as Miyazaki's quote unquote final film, just being kind of like an unbound unleashing of stuff. Although I think that Paprika is for all its messiness and wildness is still a pretty like conveniently tidy final statement on what he's up to, what he's interested in. Meaningfully or not, like, whether he meant to or not.

Yeah, it's actually like, I mean, that final scene, which we'll get to, is sort of like, you can't really imagine a more perfect note to end on for an incredible career, so... That's what's wild is when, I mean, what, the second to last shot of this movie is the pan across the marquee. Yeah, his short but illustrious filmography.

Right, and watching this in 06 or 07 or whatever, you're like, okay, is that too cute? And then when this is his last movie, you're like, that is profound. It is profound that this movie ends with him showing his career up until this point, and then the character buying a ticket. I mean, to be fair, he might have kind of known.

Yeah. Like he had had health issues up until this point. Like it was, was it pancreatic cancer? Yes. Yeah, which really hits you hard and fast, but he had, like many animation directors and people who work in the field, his health was pretty abysmal.

So I think he might have known that. I mean, I was saying this on a recent episode because the bout of pancreatic cancer that he finally, you know, came to, there was three months between diagnosis and death. Like that was pretty speedy, but as you said, he had other issues up until that point in time. It is hard not to look back at his entire career

through the prism of, was this a guy who knew that he wasn't gonna have a lot of room to work? You look at how quickly he worked, and how like every film has the energy of, I need this to work if this is the only film I ever get to make in my life. Like every movie he makes has the energy of, I'm making this like, this is my final statement. And this is like, this is the only film I ever get to make in my life. Like every movie he makes has the energy of I'm making this like this my final statement. Yeah and this is like everything is in

this. Yes. I would say Tokyo Godfathers is maybe the exception but like yeah Millennium Actress and Paprika feel... I would say like Millennium Actress feels kind of like the lost highway to Paprika's Mulholland Drive. I think that's a good take. You get my meaning? Uh-huh. Love it. Uh, not to preview your guys' uh, March Madness. March Madness. Yeah.

Which is great. As of yesterday. Yeah. Let's be clear. We're happy about it. Everybody's happy about it. Everyone's gonna fucking read into it. You guys are gonna be talking about so many dreams within the next year. This is the problem. Me saying I'm happy about it, everyone's gonna go like, he sounded really angry when he said that.

Pissed off. Good outcome. We're happy. It's fine. Don't say it that way because now they're actually gonna... It's fine. That's the right way to say it. Has David ever said that's fine in another tone, in a tone that sounds more happy? I'm not mad.

I love David Lynch. I love him more than you. True. You can't argue him a lot. But you like him too. I want you to raise the roof right now, David. Yeah, David, you gotta. Okay.

Here's the thing. Here's the thing about David Lynch. I, you know, when someone wins our March Madness, oh, amazon.com, blu-ray.com. Time for me to search for what discs I need to buy. I fucking own them all. Interesting. I just need to buy like one. Twin Peaks is the one thing where I'm like,

do I invest in a set? That's a tricky choice. There's a lot of different sets. I splurged on the super limited one. You got the really fancy one. I'm like, do I want that? Do you have any form of any of it? I used to own the original series on-

Oh, the VHS one. Not on VHS, I had it on DVD. So I'm guessing it was the Gold Box. Yeah, with the kind of green and blue spines. Green and blue had a sort of slip case. Yeah, yeah. But those were British. So that wasn't the Gold Box, that was the original.

It was pre-Gold Box. And it was pre... We have to keep saying Gold Box. Pre-season three. It was when Twin Peaks was just, you know, this two-season thing. You know was when Twin Peaks was just, you know, this two season thing. You know, but I'm wondering about that. Yeah, cuz I'd like something. I'm just wondering if I need to splurge on the thing you got or get the slightly less...

The television collection. Right, the sort of hundred dollar kind of, you know... Just spend a hundred dollars. Versace, please spend like three hundred dollars. I didn't spend that much. Okay, all right, I'll take it back. I got a discount on eBay. I did some aggressive best offer very good I mean you got to keep David Lynch and cigarettes like you got a you got to pay up. Yes, I agree

No, we were we were texting with we have a group text now with our buddy Sean fantasy and Tim simons Wow called news and deals that is like the dork text that is basically just us sharing We have a group text now with our buddies Sean Fantasy and Tim Simons. Wow. Called News and Deals. Dork. Dork text. That is basically just us sharing. Yeah. Oh, did you see the Shell Factory's having a sale? Every time we send a text in there, I have had one less sex in my life, right? Like, my amount of times having had sex goes down.

You have a photo of your daughter that Back to the Future style is starting to fade. Never! You have a photo of your daughter that Back to the Future style is starting to fade. Never! But yes, it's like all just us posting announcements of discs and sales of discs. And we texted the day before Marshmallow's ended. I was like, look, either outcome right now between Spike and Lynch, I'm excited that tomorrow I get to order a bunch of Blu-rays. Yeah, although Spike had one, it would have been, yeah.

That's a lot. Well, he's also, we discussed a lot, but he's got a lot of missing discs. The man needs... His catalog needs to be better served. Girl 6 only available on Blu-ray in Japan. What? She Hate Me only in France. Really? Four of them have gotten no release post-DVD.

There's probably some weird French reason for that too. Oh, yes, this is very good. He has sperm. He has best film, finally. He's probably some weird French reason for that too. Oh yes, he's very good. He has sperm. His best film finally. He's been to the lesbians. This film has been canceled. It's very good. Get on the bus, you can't buy.

The French becoming Russian? Or sort of Dracula-esque in my, which one? She's gotta have it, get on the bus. Yeah, she's gotta have it is the one that's kinda weird, because that's obviously a very celebrated film. And they did the Netflix and everything. Is it not streaming on Netflix? I thought it was on Netflix. It's probably streaming somewhere.

I don't know if it still is. I agree. I think Craterian has said they're working on that one. Weirdly, even Spike, longer career, more missing films, I think I own more Spike discs. Lynch is gonna be a big shopping spree for me. Lynch isn't so much your fella, but maybe... Even Spike's longer career, more missing films, I think I own more Spike discs. Lynch is gonna be a big shopping spree for me. Lynch isn't so much your fella, but maybe... But I like him and I'm excited to do the series.

God, you guys are so excited. That's so cool. We're just tired. It's been a long month. Kind of a long month. Kind of a long month. I mean, when is March not just a blast for you guys? True. Yeah, but this is better than some marches, I would say.

Yeah, I remember. We've had some pretty rough marches. Yeah. Ben's nodding. But it is true that between Cone and Lynch in the same year, this is a very dreamy- Very dreamy year. Absolutely. Subconscious year for blank check.

2024, year of the dream. You were, the other day, I like this, 2024 year of the dream. Yeah, yeah. Hopefully it ends with the biggest dream of all, the return of Donald Trump to the White House. What's that? What's that? Bah bah bah bah bah.

Wow, who's getting political now and who's pissed off at who? Wow, the table is really turned. Anytime I have a thought like that, I should then cut in like refrigerators, like doing a parade, right? Just like chaos. Can I do my impression of David on November 7th? It's fine. Yeah, that's me.

Oh my God. What are you gonna do? It's fine. Yeah. All right, what were you gonna say, Griffin? I was gonna say, the other day you texted, you were watching Kurosawa's Dreams. Yeah. And you said every director should make one of these. I kind of just liked the other day you texted, you were watching Kurosawa's Dreams. Yeah.

And you said, every director should make one of these. I kind of just like the idea of, like, if a director's hitting, like, their 70s or 80s, the Hollywood, as was the case there, famous directors like Scorsese and George Lucas should just be like, hey, here's, like, here's some money. Go make a movie about some dreams you've been having just as a kind of, like, you know, peace out.

This is the movie that's literally about dreams, and was kind of his passion, his dream project for so long, for ten years he spent trying to get together. I just do think it's interesting that in between Tokyo Godfathers and this, the thing he had been aiming to finally get made, he does Paranoia Agent, which you could argue is kind of his dreams. Like, that is his drafts folder. Oh, sure. Okay.

Where he was just like, let me do a TV series. Yeah, I got a bit of a feel. His Curacao is Dreams is what you mean. His Cavendish Dreams. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Like, this is the Dreams movie. But at 45, he did his show where he was like, here's every other idea I have. Yeah. But luckily, it was bound together by a pretty, like a great genre mystery engine, so that it feels like something that, you know,

because he was still like, I wanted to do something that had all of my little ideas in it, but still sell it as an entertainment. He was too disciplined a storyteller to ever be self-indulgent. Yeah. Like, I think... This actually feels like the most self-indulgent, at least like visually and stylistically, and feels less beholden to, well, I gotta make it a show.

Sure. But yeah, I mean, it's fun. I do agree, though, that everybody should have one of those, especially once they've kind of put in their time. Because what are you doing out here at age 70 trying to be like, I can still, I still know how to like do a plot. Like everybody knows, you're good for it. Like, we just want to see the inside of your mind at that point. This is my fucking killers of the flower moon argument. Yeah.

Where anyone is like, Monica used a pair of scissors. I'm like, he's giving us everything. Yeah. He can do whatever he wants. Anyone complaining about his films. He can tell that story any way he wants to. Yeah. I really am like, what on earth? That, whatever.

I mean the movies go. I don't even love that movie. But the length of it is not the reason I don't like it. I enjoyed sitting there in that theater for all four hours and was happy to be there. Three and a half hours. Whatever. I just, I do.

With trailers? Not in a supernatural. Without trailers. I saw without trailers as well. In a, not in a supernatural way, there saw Without Trailers as well. In a not in a supernatural way, there is that thing that's a little bit eerie about him just like being like, I got to get all of this out of my system before I turn 50. Yeah.

Paprika. The film is called Paprika. I feel like when I have been telling people we are doing this director and they are not like, you know, gigantic movie nerds, they're sort of like, oh, who's that? And I'm like, oh, you made this film, you made this film, you made this one, he made a movie called Paprika. And they're like, oh, I remember Paprika. This is maybe the movie that crossed over the most,

at least initially. I mean, it got a theatrical release, which is when I saw it for the first time. They all got theatrical releases. In America, yes. Yes, mostly from Sony, yes. Usually, well, no, Millennium Actress was delayed by a couple years. Tokyo Godfather was weirdly year-of,

so Millennium Actress and Tokyo Godfather came out a month apart. Yes, and then this... I remember that. This came out, you know, six months after it came out in Japan. This got a summer 07 release. It was duking it out at the box office against Shrek the Third. Oh, my God. Well, that's not gonna hit the box.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Jesus fucking hell. I mean, it had the most... I mean, he just got number two if you want to give him a ding. Yeah, give me a quick ding. It had the biggest gross of any of his film statesides, but still made under a million dollars. Yeah.

But it crossed over, I feel like, a little more. The fact that this was Sony and and they kinda kept it in circulation on streaming and on video. Right, and then it was remade better by Christopher Nolan, so that helped its reputation. We'll talk about this. Anyway, look, I'm joking. That was a joke.

Every part of the statement was a joke. We're all joking and laughing here. I'm gonna open the dossier. Fun! I wanna open it. 2024, year of funny dreams. Dreams with jokes in them. Hard joke dreams.

Yes, open the dossier, David. I'm just gonna open up RadioClub.jp. My favorite website. And my favorite bar. Yes, we'll talk about that later, of course. From January 1991 to June 1993, the Japanese edition of Marie Claire published four installments of an avant-garde novelist's latest work, Yasutaka Tsutsui? Tsutsui.

Tsutsui. Tsutsui, yeah. Tsutsui. His science fiction story Paprika. I love it was Marie Claire, I didn't know that. Isn't that funny? That's why I just wanted to, like it's so funny, this was serialized in Marie Claire, it was very popular.

It was like the bonfire of the vanities of Japan. He did not know if it was gonna go over well. Okay. But it was a huge hit and he considered it to be his defining novel, the summation of my career in terms of both entertainment and psychoanalysis, he said. So lots of people wanted to make it into a movie. There was a manga produced in 95 but not released until 03.

I have never seen what that looks like. I don't know if you have, Emily. I think that's a more literal adaptation. Sure. A live-action version was in pre-production, but was shut down due to budget concerns. But Satoshi Kon always wanted to make it. After he released his Perfect Blue, he's like, well, that story was a huge influence on me. I read a lot of that guy's books when I was in my early 20s. So, Rex Entertainment, the company that had given him money for Perfect Blue, goes under and,

Cone had been trying to get them to get the rights or whatever, but when they go under, it kind of goes away. And so he goes off and he makes many other things. He makes Millennium Actress, he makes Tokyo Govos, he makes Paranoia Agent. And the thing with Satoshi Kome, which we've talked about already before, but is particularly unusual for animation,

is he is a guy who kept his budgets small enough. Sure. Like every time he had a film that exceeded expectations a little bit, he'd let it grow by like 10%. I think so, yeah. And so his, just the return on his movies was always solid enough that he could get another movie off the ground quickly.

Yeah. In 2003, he's promoting, been a Paranoid agent, and Animation Magazine asks him to have a conversation with Tsutsui. Cohen says this meeting was fated, F-A-T-E-D. You mean they were totally fated?. You mean they were totally fated. Yeah, and they were totally fated. They were zonked.

And he's like, hey, I saw Millennium Actress, I love those dream sequences, you could totally do it for Preeka. He's very encouraging of this, and that kind of sets the ball rolling. And Cohn's like, fine, I'm gonna start working on it right now, they start developing it while he's still in production on Paranoia Agent.

And let's see, right, Perfect Blue, Cohn had also adapted a novel, but was like, I never really read it. But Paprika, he's like, this is a huge influence on me. Perfect Blue is kind of like a Colonel Blimp adaptation. Right. You love to call things a Colonel Blimp adaptation. Because it's the weirdest thing ever. I mean, that's the most extreme example of what I'm talking about. But yes, this was a true adaptation, but he also did do a lot of work to transform it away from the book. Now, Emily, you've read at least most of this book.

I read about half of it. You cracked it open for the pod. I was trying to finish it in time for the pod, and I didn't get through it. But I mean, the thing that sort of mostly surprised me about it was how, um... I guess if we don't want to get into it, we don't have to get into it, but how much, uh, you know, people love the accusation against Nolan for inception, you know, lifting a lot from Paprika the film.

We do have to talk about it. I was sort of stunned at how much more it seemed like he had lifted from the novel itself. Just in terms of what the plot is, like the plot is more concerned with kind of a corporate espionage type thing. It's less about trying to plant an idea in somebody's head, at least as far as I've gotten. And it's more about like trying to protect somebody. It's more the like somebody's kind of under fire for his company because he's got some

ideas. He's got some dangerous ideas. And that sort of is what's in place of the Konakawa story, the detective story. But I don't know. I'm into it so far. I got to finish it, but it definitely is not hitting the film themes as much as the film is, obviously. And... but it still has a lot, like, there are sequences.

The whole, like, Konekawa, like, how he goes through all the different genres of the film and everything. That's very much intact, and that's lifted straight from the book. Yeah, but you definitely see how Cohn puts his own, like prioritizes his own interests, which at this point we really know what they are, like we know what he's interested in.

So seeing those overlaid onto the very like sturdy genre structure of the novel is really fun. Like he's kind of pirouetting all over the kind of more procedural structure of the book. It's my favorite kind of adaptation, which is a person makes a work about what the original work kind of means to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, same. Yeah, that's how, yeah.

If you're gonna do it, why do a one-to-one? Like show us how it makes you feel, which I think this is just just a master class of that. The parade, Cohn says, is his biggest invention, where he came up with that essentially as his desire to try and represent what the book is doing with something entirely visual. It's like an overflowing reality. It's kind of also an act of economy, I think, on a certain part, because there is not one big shared sort of dream hallucination fantasy thing, and it's kind of all different and

disparate for different people. It's more also supposed to be like a contagious sort of schizophrenia that's infecting everybody. And so that's not really we don't really see the inside of that. So I think it just helped to visually convey, OK, this is what the madness is and less assigned like an actual diagnosis to it. But just to be like, this is this is what everybody is sort of racing compulsive thought. Yeah. But it also, I mean, it's the thing

that's always heard about like, well, we'll talk about this, but like film is a very dreamlike medium. There's a reason people have made great movies about dreams. Although a lot of terrible movies about dreams have been made, but the good ones feel kind of transcendent. That's a really bad one, though? That's actually a good question.

Do you not want to say? You guys don't want to say. I don't think you'd like it if I said it. Don't just say Inception. Say something else. Sorry, I don't have another answer. No, but come on, come on. For leaving, I'm serious.

Like, what are some other movies about dreams that really miss the mark? I was not... What dreams may come. Sure. That's technically a heaven movie or afterlife movie. Sure. I'm talking about like movies where it's like, let's do it. We're gonna like set a movie in the dream world.

I am not a big fan of dream scenario. I do think it gets the dreams right. The dreams were kind of fun in that. That's sort of the successful part of the movie. You kind of wanted more of those. Yeah. I mostly like dream movies. Yeah, I do too.

I like Nightmare on Elm Street as a universe. I like Waking Life, you know, that's a dreamy movie. You know what I've never seen in dreams? The serial killer movie from the 90s. Oh, I've never seen that either. The Cell I am a defender of. That was not well received at the time. Do we count Eternal Sunshine as a dream movie?

Sure. Yeah, anything where you're in the mental, someone's brain space, right? I think that counts. I know that's more about memories. Yeah, I wouldn't even think of The Cell as being a dream movie necessarily, because it's more like the subconscious.

But still, anything where it's like someone's putting on a rig and is like, I'm going in his brain, right? You know, that's a robust sub job. I'm on dream movies, Wikipedia, Waking Life. Yeah, I said Waking Life. Vanilla Sky. I'm sorry. Vanilla Sky, thank you. Thank you for correcting me.

Yeah, Vanilla Sky counts. The best dream movie of all time last night. Soho obviously, the great dream movie. I guess that's dreams. Is that what's going on in that one? I already kind of forgot. Yeah, when she sleeps, she is the other. She's Anya Taylor Joy.

I wonder about the, I think, short-lived NBC series Awake. There was Awake, that's true. There was a Dream On on HBO that had dreams, Awake. There was Awake, that's true. There was Dream On on HBO. That had dreams, I think. It's a rich and fulfilling genre. It's a stinker-filled genre, I gotta say. Several David Lynch films included on that. Wait, what?

That guy's firmly planted on the ground. I'm gonna submit some edits. BFG? Well, he makes dreams. I don't know if you remember this. He does make them in bottles. He is a dream worker. Can I tell you? I don't remember. Like, here's, he takes some fuzzy wumples.

Okay, well do you remember just like, feeling like really high energy watching a movie? Just like, you know, electricity course. That was probably you were watching Steven Spielberg's The BFG. Yep. One of the most energetic movies ever made. It was sort of like a manic episode. Yeah. Okay. Oh, the bartenders are played by Conan Tsutsui, right?

I don't think I knew that. I just found out. That's cool. Apart from that, he wasn't really involved. He was like, you do whatever you wanna do. Make your version. Conan's kind of shaking up his style a little bit, right? He had been working, I feel like, in more...

Like, his characters are more realistic. Sure. Here, his character's a little more exaggerated. Listen, some of the characters are far more kind of caricatured. Yes. And so he's messing with that. He gives these very, very, very long quotes, which I'm not mad at JJ about at all,

but I am not going to just read aloud for 20 minutes. Can we do a quick it's fine check to see how you really feel? Fine. Oh, wow. No, it's fine. It's fine. Anyway, but I feel like the most important thing

is when this movie comes out, he's like almost famous in Japan, right? He's gone from niche or cult status to kind of like major, he's approaching major artiste status, which is pretty cool. But then of course it's very sad that this is final movie. He's never done drugs. Wow.

They all say that. It raises the obvious question, JJ says, and I think he's right. that this is final movie. He's never done drugs. Wow. Okay. They all say that. This raises the obvious question JJ says, and I think he's right. Well, then what the hell was you smoking and can I get some? Yeah. Wait a second.

JJ, I have an answer for you. What he was smoking is your fire. Your fired cigarettes. Your fired France cigarettes. To be clear, JJ wrote that joke in. Yeah, it was funny Look alright, but pretty let's just talk about paprika. I can't look at this. I mean sure What's important is he just sat down?

He was like I think I'm gonna make an absolute fucking solid gold banger, and then he did he was like bang here It is and everyone saw it was like That's what happened. Well you talking about like that. No. I loved it. It was great That's what happened. Well, you talking about it like that? No, I loved it. It was great. It was fine. You talking about like him imposing these ideas on top of like a very sturdy genre structure. There's this extended quote in here that I will paraphrase.

Thank you for saying it's extended. Yep. Where he talks about his... Cohn's direct term that he used was hoodlum emulation. Where he basically said that like a thing he had a distaste for in animation was people just kind of showing off all their tricks. And that you very often saw someone learn something and now they just want to show you the technical skill or the Creativity or how crazy their design was or they were inspired by something else or their craft grew to a point where there was a New thing they could do and he was always like that's sort of the hoodlum side of my brain And then there is the other character the Satoshi cone is the sort of like enforcer Who forces the hoodlum Kon to like put his wildest instincts in a structure. So talking about Paprika being the thing he

wanted to make for like 10 years, I think there was, he had some feeling, even though obviously what was stopping him from really making the movie up until this point were the rights, budget level, you know, feeling of ability to be able to execute it, all that sort of stuff. There was also the thing, I think, for him of like, I want to know I am at a point where I'm not just doing this as an excuse to just go on flights of fans and be able to animate anything.

Yeah. Sure. And impress people. Which I think is something that people often oversimplified this movie especially as being, as just like, it's so fucking trippy man. Like I think on the Apple store description, it's like, this is your brain on anime. And it's just, it's like, there's a reason behind, like he is actually the most meticulous.

Like I would say that like there are many other animation directors who are much more just like, here's the inside of my brain doesn't necessarily have to do with any plot or anything. I think he's much more rigorous about what he shows. He is, but I think this movie is... not a tough watch on first, but like, it's quite overwhelming. Yeah.

And like, I find it more rewarding every time I watch it. The first time I watched it, I was like so hyped. And then I kind of exited being like, I don't really know what happened there. And not in that way of like, whoa, that guy was just like fucking vibing with images. I was just like, I feel like, you know, like the, because it's kind of a tight plot. Like if you pay attention, but it's kind of a tight plot, like, if you pay attention, but it's kind of easy to get distracted. Well, and it gets quite abstract at the end,

which I wish I would have gotten to the end of the novel to know how the ending works on the page, because it really becomes, I think, something so symbolic and, yes, dreamlike at the end, as far as the resolution to the problem. You kind of get it. I imagine it was fairly different, and yes, dreamlike at the end as far as the resolution to the problem. I imagine it was fairly different because the one thing I saw in the dossier is that he started, he spent a long time storyboarding the movie

and he did very detailed, meticulous storyboards before he started animation. He's one of these guys who does that himself, which is, again, one of these things that leads to a short life. You're in the middle of storyboarding by himself. And then, like, this has to be airtight for me before I can start animation, but he started without an ending. He was like, I think I will find the ending as I go along. That makes me think the ending has to be veering off from something else.

The hoodlum thing, if I can just read his direct quote here. It's similar to the relationship of Atsuko and Paprika, so I think I could identify with those characters more easily. Subsequently, I could relate to the film better. This time around, I wanted to go with my hoodlum instincts. So he was trying to unleash this part of him that he had always been like, that's unseemly. And he said, if it doesn't work, it's the hoodlums fault,

but Satoshi Kone is there for equilibrium. He'll say, hold up or just go with it, depending on the situation. It's like the gas pedal and the brake pedal you have on a car. So a real Thomas Middleditch situation, but- Wait a second. Huh?

Wait a second, what? Huh? 15 people are gonna like that joke. Okay, fine. But yes, it's like, it's fascinating that he's like, this is my like flight of fancy movie where I can just like go off, but also this other version of me is there

as like a parole officer trying to keep things on rails. Well, it's funny. I mean, this is why I say that that millennium actress feels like a warmup for this because you have that almost like literally represented in millennium actress with the reporter the the documentarians sort of interjecting into this very dreamlike memory almost and then coming in and meddling with it or you know being like is this what really happened? Imposing logic, explaining. Yeah yeah which I, it does feel like that is just how he thinks of things.

It's like, and I identify with that a lot as a writer, like, especially when you are not a novelist necessarily, when you are doing something that has to be like turned in and functional. There's a part of you that's always checking yourself and it is this dichotomy of like, how much do you let one live over the other and yeah, it totally makes sense that that's how he thinks like he identifies with Paprika and Atsuko in this story and like how one has to like coexist with the other. There's just such a major component of film writing that is engineering.

Even if you're trying to do something that veers more towards non-narrative, save for doing a pure installation piece, right? Even if you're doing a non-narrative thing, there's some level of engineering where it's like, well, no, I'm writing this with the specific intent of this being a document that can be translated. It's direction. To a process and a medium that then needs to have some kind of

emotional or intellectual effect on people relative to the amount of time they're investing into it and you're always happy about the things that actually make it through that aren't in service of that function the things that feel personal and like yeah that could be called a flight of fancy. Right. The things that make it through that process are the things that elevate it, but, you know, it's all kind of in service of this engine.

And, yeah, just fighting to get some of your own little personal stuff in there is a big part of it. And then here's a movie where you have a lead character who is, like, a scientific mind in a corporate structure, who is also then going into dreams and fucking with shit. Being awesome. Trying to like, yeah. Yeah.

And being this like fantasy object. Yes. Like allowing her identity to become super malleable and, you know, not bound to her responsibilities necessarily. But what spice would you name yourself after in the dream world? This is a great question. Garlic salt. I was going to say that's my answer as well.

Now I feel like a fucking hack. Couple of garlic salt boys here. Um, like, like everything bagel seasoning, does that count? Like a shaker of... That is, you have to admit, that's not just me being funny, that's probably the most spot on description of my energy. You're just an everything bagel over there. Yeah.

I'm just a shaker of MSG. Oh yeah, that's great. What would you be, David? I don't know, sage. I'm so wise. We use the term, the term you coined, that sucks, that sucks so much. That's an herb, not a spice.

Yeah, everything about it's bad. If you grind it up, it's on my spice rack, baby. I got ground up, Sage, what's up? You coined the term years ago, too much paprika on the sandwich. Yes, I did. We're covering a movie called Paprika for the first time. I'm trying to remember, was it Bridge of Spies?

No, I think I had it for some, no, it's right, it's for Split, because in Split, James McAvoy is making sandwiches and he puts a lot of paprika on them, which is, you know, a bit insane of him, because he's, you know, he's the beast or whatever. I can't remember. There's literally a paprika sandwich in that one. I think that's where that came from, right?

Yes, there's a paprika scene. Paprika originated from discussion at the sandwich making scene in the film split. It's when James McAvoy's in the- And then you reapplied it to other things. Remember when he's in the kindly old lady vibe? Yeah, I remember, yeah. He's like, I made you a sandwich for the paprika on it.

And you're like, wow, this movie's crazy. And then I said that in either Lincoln or Bridge of Spies or some movie, Spielberg put the appropriate amount of paprika on it and then put it back in the rack. Right, back in the rack, I remember vividly. I just think it's fascinating that that's the term we've created for like overindulgence, over seasoning. And then this is a movie that is like so judicious in the amount of paprika it's using. It's literally in the final lines of the film,

like just a little paprika to balance it all out. I keep my paprika in the fridge to keep it red. Something I do. What? What happens if you, it kind of loses its color after a while. It oxidizes. Yeah, if you keep it in the fridge, it stays really red, which is nice.

Well, it seems like this paprika's been kept in the fridge. Good call. This movie is beautiful and colorful. Her shirt is red. And her hair. And her hair. Her hair's kind of brownie red. Kind of orange.

Auburn. The red shirt and the jeans is also a direct lift from the book. That's what she wears. That's the paprika costume. And her car, you said? Her car is the appropriate. Her car is the appropriate. Yeah. it's a big pepper yeah on wheels remember when in Blue's Clues salt and pepper had a baby and it was called

paprika of course yeah pretty cool didn't make any sense but she now I would not believe what she looks like today. Uh oh, I just quit with Paprika and I want to complete it January 6th. Oh no. Doesn't that feel like a Zergnet prompt? Of like, you won't believe what baby Paprika looks like today. Thanks for shouting out Zergnet. Thank you. David? Yeah?

You know what I hate? What? Licensing media for my project. It's a hassle. Oh, I want to I want to leave a voicemail For a family member wishing them a happy birthday and suddenly I find out it costs how much to license sympathy for the Beaver. Oh, yeah, that's what you want to do. Happy birthday is free now now Now it's free But I thought it'd be fun to call my dad and go, Yow! Right, it's just first there's just his, you know, just tape player his.

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Paprika is set in the near future where a newly created device called the DC Mini. What does that stand for, DC? It's two, so there are two devices in the book and one's called the Daedalus and I can't remember what the other one is But it's sort of a combination of the two of them There's also something called a Gorgon in the book. So a lot of Greek myth here Yeah, that that that's like the wireless technology So basically the DC mini is a combination of all these different existing Dream things they have that has basically been on the black market illegally at the point of the book

Combined into one thing that lets people be in other people's they basically gone from a computer the size of a room to an iPhone That now can do too many things and wirelessly right and Part of this it's mentioned. It's very techy blah blah blah in the movie, and it doesn't really matter but like The the idea of the anaphylax it doesn't really matter but like the the idea of the anaphylaxis which I barely get is like basically the more that the the more that this bond is formed between a person and the technology the stronger it gets which is sort of why Atsuko is the most susceptible to being fucked with

because she's been using it the most. Right, and why she basically has, is in dreams, even without control in a way. Like her avatar is just there. Yeah. I believe there are a couple things in this movie that feel like they might have very specifically influenced Nolan, right?

Without having read the book, just reading through stuff. I sort of was leaning in the same direction you're leaning, Emily, which is like, it feels more likely that he read the book at some point and that that might have planted ideas in his head. Perhaps inceptioned ideas in his head, but in a way that feels like... The whole thing with Nolan in this is he's never acknowledged it. Ever. And so it's like if he did get inspired by this book or movie, it would be nice for him to acknowledge it, but he never has. He's a coward. And he's always said...

Coward. Well, some people would just say things like, he's a coward on our podcast. I wouldn't because he might not have been inspired by this book. And they called him baby and a fraud. Yeah, I really want people to get mad at me. So please log on to BlankiesTutorial.com for some real angry shit. Real angsty, angry shit.

But the other thing is he's always said that Inception is like something he wrote as a teenager, which I very much believe. I adore Inception. I think it's a very fun movie, but it tracks. It feels like something as a teenager, essentially. Which I very much believe. I adore Inception. I think it's a very fun movie, but that tracks. It feels like something that a teenager wrote. Yes, and then built upon. Right, the difference between our opinions of Inception

is that David and I like that aspect of it, that it feels like a dumb thing a 15-year-old made up, reapplying with adult logic. Same, Lieutenant. That's what I love about it. It's like the thinking of a teenager and in the hands of a guy who can run a gigantic scale.

It's so hard not to, for me to imagine Inception being made in the backyard on somebody's cam corner. Like everybody wearing suits and like being really serious, screw it up guys. We're in the dream. Honestly, it's the guns that really lose me pretty early on in Inception. I'm just like, why is it guns? Like it could be literally anything, and you guys are in suits wearing guns

like it's fucking Reservoir Dogs. I mean, this is not to relitigate Inception, but what I find fascinating about that movie is, like, that is a movie about dreams made by one of the most literal-minded male lives. Okay, we don't need to, we're not doing Inception. No, I think it's actually kind of important. I do too.

I know that you don't want to invite it, but it's such a, just, I don't know, what, like 10 years ago? Yeah, whenever it was. I mean, I just think it's a cloud. We're not that old yet. And if anything, I want to talk about it, because I do think that it overshadows this film in some ways that I don't enjoy.

And I'd like to try to dispel it or at least like analyze that a little bit, because they do sort of, for Western audiences, they are pretty inseparable. Well, this was the point I was trying to make, is that like... Inseparable. I believe he had this idea when he was 15. I believe that's like the core of the idea.

There are little things in this movie, some of them maybe originate in this film, some of them originate in the book, where I'm like, that feels like that might have pinned in his brain on top of the idea he already had, and then he took it in a different direction. Yeah, sure.

But one of them is like that notion of the more time you spend in here, the more caught you get. Yeah. Which obviously in that movie is done through the Marion Coutillard character in a very different end. Yeah, in the dreams of the dreams thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I ultimately think that the films are about two very different things, which

is why I don't think the rip-off thing is exactly clean. And yes, people pick up imagery. I think there is some imagery that's so direct that I'm just a little... It's the hallway. The hallway sort of, yes. There's one image. They don't really do a combat thing in the hallway in Paprika, but more some of the stuff with the shattering of the glass.

That's basically mirrored directly with Elliot Page. Yeah, there's no movies that have mirror imagery. Also the general feeling, like whether or not it's a direct imagery or not, but like the thing of people being hooked up to these things, waking up in a new world, like that general kind of almost cathartic feeling, and that break from these very exciting moments is very... That's the feeling that they share. The headband kind of thing, which is funny because people ask Cone,

like, did you rip the headband off from existence? Because it looks the same. And he was like, no, I've never seen that, the headband's inspired by like a plant I like. And it's jankier too, but it does remind me a little bit more of Eternal Sunshine, where it's the same thing. Like lying in the bed and someone sort of watching over you. Yeah, diodes on your brain.

But in this way talking about like our favorite adaptations are ones that tell you about the filmmaker and their relationship to the work and whatever. There's something very telling about like, Paprika is a movie about an animator with an animator's innate sense of like abstract creativity that he is trying to impose order and meaning on, that he is trying to self-police versus Inception being one of the most literal minded men alive, being like, what's the wildest thing I can think of? A well-dressed man with a gun walking upside down. I don't think... Love Inception, I think it's a masterpiece, but I'm saying, that's what's interesting about the two films. It is so true though. It's what makes them very

different. Yeah. And also, so the main difference to me is that Inception is a movie about a partnership and addiction. Yes, it's about a project. It's about like making a movie, right? It's addiction to whatever. It could be a drug thing. It could be a creative process and like being stuck in a world with somebody. At any rate, it is about what happens to two people when they are like together too long, making too deep a connection to get together. Making too many skyscrapers. Making too many childhood homes in the...

And the classic Nolan thing of... Electric building downtown. If my wife left me, I'd be a fucking mess. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. and the classic Nolan thing of, electric building downtown. If my wife left me, I'd be a fucking mess. Yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Paprika is about something much bigger and cosmic, which I think ultimately makes it more ambitious to me.

And it also makes like, exactly, the animator sensibility is really what wins out here. Because you don't, there is a way you can yada yada some of the technicalities of your science fiction premise that you don't have to you don't have like JGL standing at the end of a stair I just watched this by the way I hadn't watched in a while like standing at the edge of a staircase being like paradox like I just like that that shit is where I don't think that's how he said it by by the way. I think he was, paradox. Paradox.

Paradox. But it's just that, that to me is like him, it's the prestige or whatever, which is a movie of his that I like a lot, but it's just like kind of trying... Yeah, it gets stuck in the literalness when it could be in the clouds a little more. It could, there's a version of that movie

that's still about the same stuff, it's still about Marion Cotillard, that allows itself to have a little more. It could, there's a version of that movie that's still about the same stuff. It's still about Marion Cotillard that allows itself to have a little more, to exist with its feet a little bit off the ground. A little more. For me, all of that is featured on a bug because it's so telling of who he is and I find it fascinating.

He made that movie. I know, and that's, I mean, I'm not asking him to make a different movie, but that's where that movie trips up for me. That's where I get out of it a little bit. I think there's a lot of cool stuff in that movie I'm not saying I like outwardly I okay Incredible ideas in that movie like a loaded die Wait, I don't want anybody to be like oh my god Emily Emily hates

Inception hates everything no made I will always readily admit when Nolan impresses me And I think he's done a good job, that movie is kind of embarrassing to me, but I love a lot of his other movies. You were like, veering back onto the main road clean, and then you throw in the side swipe of embarrassing. That's so good. That's so good. But I mean, he's, whatever, he is ambitious and it's cool. And I always tell the story about how I was downtown when they were filming the car chase

scenes in downtown LA. For what, for Inception? For Inception. And they were doing the Milky Rain down there. And it ruined a pair of my shoes. So I'll always have that. Ah. And Detta reveals it's all because of your shoes. Did he even fucking apologize during his Oscar speech?

What kind of shoes were they? They were like some, like there was some canvas slip-on shoes that I shouldn't have been wearing. Oh, okay. Nolan dumped water all over them. My $10 shoes. Another example. Um, the thing about Paprika and... is that it's a great movie.

This is my thing. Like, why must it exist in any shadow, right? We don't need it to. That's why I wanted to have this conversation, because I don't why must it exist in any shadow, right? We don't need it to. Yeah, well, that's why I wanted to have this conversation, because I don't think it should exist in any shadow. I think every time this movie gets brought up, and you're right, in the West, people immediately are like, well, Inception, I'm like, you don't need to worry about that.

Paprika's doing great. I think it doesn't help the legacy of either movie to constantly frame the other. I agree. Yeah. But it did have to be discussed. Now we can talk about this. I think it had to be discussed. Now we can talk about the screen. It had to be discussed.

It's mostly the hallway thing. People really tripled. We're not going to single-handedly dispel this connection here on Point Check, the podcast. No, no. I mean, Nolan would have to... I have no idea if he's ever even really talked about it. This is all like internet chatter of like, why won't he mention this?

And I feel like he's never even said like, oh, I don't know what that is, or oh, I didn't. I'm not entirely sure about that. No, and like despite him not being a fucking poster, it's not like he's a guy who isn't talking often. Wait, wait a second, I haven't heard of this. He doesn't, I don't know if you guys know about this, he doesn't have a phone. What is he talking about?

That's impossible. He can't post. It's so good that he doesn't have a phone. What are you talking about? That's impossible. He can't post. It's so good that he doesn't have a phone. Yeah, it rules, it's the best thing about it. That is one of the best things about him, I love that. The big difference in this movie versus something like Inception, Inception is about like building worlds, right? And like these people who, that's their job, they're builders, right?

In Paprika, it's like, no, dreams are this like, you know, uncontrollable thing. They're more menacing. Yeah, like they can get out of your grasp really quickly. They can mesh into other people's dreams and then eventually maybe start bleeding into the real world. Like it's much more like hazy how it all works. Well, it's also just the danger, like the, the kind of dialogue going on is the,

the potential danger of them being messed with too much, of letting dreams be dreams, of letting your personal, private world become external. Well, the emotional core of this movie is a guy who's wracked with regret over not pursuing basically. A film and career. Yeah, but like an artistic partnership, right? A relationship that was based on a shared sense of creativity.

That he left, the guy died, which is also kind of eerie within the cone. Right, right. Ironically, even more tragic to consider that, yeah. Yeah. Right, and then he entered a rule, a world literally controlled by rules and law. Like he became a fucking cop. A cop. Yes. Yes.

And it's just like, should I have continued making movies in my backyard? Yeah. Which is like, once again, this like internal cone, like not that I think he questions whether or not he should have pursued a career in the arts, but it's like, well, this is another split of his psyche. There's like the part of him.

The manager and the dreamer. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. And the two paths, one could go down. And the artist is dead in this movie. Who's the guy in the, who's putting him in the cage? Is that supposed to be his old friend

or is that just kind of like his subconscious? I love that it's not really answered. Unless it is answered, in which case I noticed that and I'm not telling you guys that. It just seemed down to earth. If it's answered, in which case I noticed that and I'm not telling you guys that. If we know it's... To seem down to earth. If it's answered, we all know the answer. Because like the first thing in Paprika is we're in this guy's recurring dream

where he's like in the audience of a circus. Yes. And then suddenly he's in the cage in the middle of the circus. Everyone in the audience has his face. And is running towards him. It's a dream I have every night too. Look, it's a good movie dream.

Yeah, there's also this effect where you're suddenly in his point of view and the camera's panning around in this way that is so unusual for animation. It's very cool. The notion that this almost got off the ground is a live action film a couple years earlier before they finally decided, is this just prohibitive to do in live action?

You can't do it, but it would be expensive. They were, I think, filing it more as, oh, the effects might not be there or they're too expensive or whatever I do think there's something just to and and There are many dream movies I like but you always struggle with this where it's like How do you visually represent a dream without stylizing it too much because in your dreams your reality is very slippery But it does feel real to you when you're in it. There's not this distinction.

You can get caught up in actually thinking it's really happening. In animation, there's just a clean line of like, the dreams can look exactly the same as reality, because you don't have to put fucking filters on your lenses or like change the color palette to delineate. You're still the same people drawn in the same way. And when they start evolving and abstracting their forms, it's like, it's not a CGI layer on top of it. Yeah, it's just all seamless.

Like I think about, like I was, when I was watching Inception, like there's just a moment where they're in, I forget which setting they're in, but somebody sit in on a bed that has a pink knitted blanket on it. And I'm just like, one of the great things about Paprika is you don't have to fill in that that's like a pink knitted blanket and think about it being a construct within the dream. That things can be as defined or hazy as you want them to be and you'll never really have

your attention drawn to it. You'll just sort of be aware of it while you're watching it. That's the other. Conan is at this point just like fucking king of transitions, king of like slipping in and out of realities. Yeah, the whole, I mean, we should talk about the opening credits, which is just one of my favorite sequences. We love those credits.

We were shutting out the credits. I love it so much. We watched the movie together. Yeah, we watched it. I watched it two times. Emily is stealing with me. Stealing with me. Stealing with you.

Stealing, stealing. You come to my house, you get stale right up. Got real crusty. I brought a fresh loaf of bread to David's house as a homewarming gift. Immediately morphed. Came a raisin. Murder weapon. But yeah, the, you know, Paprika starts on, it starts with, no, does it start on it? No, it ends with Atsuko, but like it kind of follows Paprika.

She's sort of inhabiting all these different, you know, advertisements, like hopping on a guy's t-shirt, like sort of making her way through the city in this very, you know, fluid way, this very unbound way. And I love, I mean, I love the music of this. Like I love the Susumu Hirasawa score is like going off. And it's, I don't know, it, it, it to me, I remember when I was on this podcast talking about when I was on the Miyazaki episode.

Castle in the Sky. The, yeah, when I was on Castle in theaki episode. Castle in the Sky. Yeah, when I was on Castle in the Sky, I was talking about in Kingdom of Dreams and Madness, when Miyazaki's talking about, like, oh, an animation you can, like, do. Like, he's looking out at this, out at Tokyo, being like, you know, if I'm an animation,

I can hop from this roof to the next. I can run up it, and they kind of do this little montage of all of his characters running and dodging and going all over the place. And I feel like this, like, to me, that is sort of the summation of what animation is good at. And it's not just like, oh, you can do what's physically impossible.

To me, it's like, you can embody a feeling or a mindset that you just can't do. And... It's so true. And you could never replicate the thrill of this sequence by just doing it, like, even if you did everything one-to-one perfectly, there is something about the fact that it's animated, the fact that it feels so free,

that is just, like, why I love it. If you literally had unlimited money all the time in the world, and we're handed paprika, and we're like, make this live action as close as you can, it probably would kind of suck. Don't you also think, I mean, they nearly... God bless. It seemingly got killed by inception.

Right, there was... Wolfgang Petersen was supposed to do it. There was that, but then recently there was this Cathy Yan... Yan? Yan? Yan. You know, series, but that seems to have fizzled. There was that and then but then recently there was this Cathy on yawn. Yeah. Yeah, you know Series but that seems to for Amazon But that seems like as of two years ago, so I don't know what that might still be me who knows It was on the great thing about streaming televisions that onward and upward right more and more

Yeah, but I think her adaptation was gonna be more off the book Yeah, whereas Wolfgang might have done something closer to this more off the book. Whereas Wolfgang might have done something closer to this. Would he? I don't fucking know. Come on. I love the guy but like come on. Yes. I guess he did the never ending story. It's pretty dreamy. Yeah, he's some dreamy shit. But at that point he was more in his Poseidon era.

Poseidon stars a couple dream boats. Including the great ship itself, Poseidon. Any others? A boat of dreams. Josh Lucas? Richard Dreyfus? Kurt? Kurt's in that. Yeah, it's got a weird cast.

Emmy Rossum. Uh, what I was going to say is that I do think, uh, a thing that Cohn and Miyazaki both get in Spades is there is that unbridled freedom of animation, right? But like if you go from that into a scene that feels like the type of scene that does not need to be animated, a scene with like a sort of maturity, a delicacy, a realism. So people in lab coats talking in a room. Right, walking.

Right, walking and talking. There's something more jarring in the contrast there of like choosing your moments to fully ground because there's something more jarring in the contrast there, of like choosing your moments to fully ground. Because there's something disorienting almost of seeing like, I'm used to this being used for flight of fancy or entertainment. When animation slows down, and I think it's partly just because animation is so expensive that people don't usually want to take time to animate a character thinking.

We're used to everything being like so whiz-bang, that those guys put their chips out and go like, no, it's important to have a scene that's... slowed. Yes, although I do feel like anytime anyone's... there's always just this risk that someone's gonna start talking nonsense and throw themselves out a window or something in this movie. Which is frightening and cool and you know, like... From the opening dream sequence

to the two of them looking at the laptop on the bed. And it suddenly feels like this weirdly sexual intimate thing, right? Where they're both in bathrooms. They're waking up, right? They're both in a hotel room. In the book, it is so much more overtly like a sex work type thing.

I was gonna say. Because she's kind of doing this freelance basically. It's like this machine exists, it's not regulated. And she's wearing a wig. Right, so she's sort of going into people's dreams to kind of help them understand them. She meets them in the radio club bar, which is a real bar in the book.

She meets them there. It's like very much like a private men's club. She sits, has a drink with them, they go back to her room. It's very, very sex work coded. It has the energy of like high class escort in a five star hotel with a fortune 500 CEO. And there is the weird intimacy. That kind of thing doesn't happen. Fortune 500 CEOs are very above board. The intimacy of them sitting there in the bed next to each other and like looking at

his subconscious. Right? Yeah. It's a lot. He's naked in a psychic... It's like they made a sex tape and then they're playing it back. And this technology has been developed, like when you go into the more structured world, not the DC mini, but sort of what you're saying, all these larger technologies were created in theory as breakthroughs in psychology.

Yeah, in therapy. Right, finally. Yes, but this is being done in this weird, intimate way where it's like, what are you trying to get out of this? What are you trying to puzzle out? I think also talking about, like, why you couldn't do this in live action. I've been thinking about this a lot.

And especially because it happens, like, a month apart from less than the last Indiana Jones movie coming out. The Dial of Destiny. The Dial of Destiny? The Dial of Destiny. Wow. But Christopher McQuarrie on one of the 18 hour deep reckoning episodes that I talk about nonstop. You do.

All the flashback stuff to young Tom Cruise, which I guess there's maybe more of in part two, they asked him if he had thought about doing de-aging rather than that basically just keeps him in the shadows. You have talked about this on this podcast multiple times. Have I said this? Yes, I'm sure you're about to say what you've already said. Where he said we did a bunch of tests

and the result every time was the best it ever looked and sometimes it looked perfect. I never stopped thinking that's a good effect. Yes. Right. Where if you did this in live action, you'd be thinking nonstop. That looks cool. How do they do that? Infinite money.

Best execution possible. You'd be like, holy shit, that looks wild. Right. Rather than this, where it does feel like there's one continuous stream. Anyway, Dial of Destiny, obviously the de-aging is seamless and the whole movie just like crackles from start to finish.

What a wild ride. I'm gonna get angry at you for that. It's because they think I'm serious or because they like the movie? I don't know, both directions. Yeah, sure, both directions. David only feels that way because the opening takes place in New York City.

Doesn't it take place in like Bavaria? They're on a train or whatever. I guess, the college section. No, I like the college section right because it takes place in New York City. He probably goes to a bodega, which of course is the only we have. I kind of like that. I actually think that movie's fine. Okay, I like the college section right, because it takes place in New York City. He probably goes to a bodega, which of course is the only we have. That is the one section I kind of like.

I actually think that movie's fine. OK. I mean, it's amazing. It's whatever. I really liked that movie for that half second. I saw a billboard for it in LA, and I thought it said the Dural of Destiny. The Dural of Destiny.

Ben, what did you want to say? I love the gibberish dialogue. Yes. It's so poetic. What? And it just like, it doesn't make any sense, but there's stuff in there that... Well, you're paying attention to it. It's not just they're immediately going like, blah, blah, blah.

You're like, wait, what are they saying? Did anyone listen to the dub? I didn't. I've never seen the dub of this movie. I was flipping back and forth. I wondered how the gibberish was in dub version. I watched like 90% subs, 10% dubs. I kept on kind of switching, because I do tend to... I'm dumb, but like process movies better on a first watch.

I feel like anime specifically for whatever reason. I thought the dub was really bad. The performances were so bad that I couldn't stick with it, and I don't think I got to any of the gibberish portions. Sorry to the actors in the dub whose names I don't particularly recognize, mostly like video gamey, you know, voiceover actors. I can't imagine it would be that good, honestly. I was surprised at how much I liked the Millennium Actress stuff.

I think those were done a little later and maybe have a little more spit on them. Yes, same Tokyo Godfather. Well, the Tokyo Godfather's definitely was a bit later. There have been more recent American dubs that feel like... I mean, I think part of it is just like... Spit and polish. Yeah, anime is in a much different place in American culture now than it was when this film came out.

And the American dub of this, which is still the one that was released in theaters in 2007, feels like the actors were directed as if they were in Dragon Ball Z. Which is no disrespect to Dragon Ball Z, but it's like, well, anime is action. It's very high energy. Everyone yell all the time. It's very operatic. Yeah.

The performances all just felt a little too large. The gibberish is very cool. I don't speak Japanese. I would love to know what it is in Japanese. Like, if it's being literally translated, or it's some other kind of gibberish that has the similar atmosphere, Emily. As far as I can tell, it's some other kind of gibberish that has the similar atmosphere. But it's like, I mean, as far as I can tell, it's pretty, I only know like, you know, nouns and stuff I can recognize.

The phrasing of it is probably a little more lost on me, the actual poetry of it, but it seems like they're talking about the same things for the most part. To talk about a guy we're gonna be talking about for many months though, it's like the same sort of effect as Lynch using like backwards speak, where you're like, well, what's unsettling is that it sounds close to words that I should be able to process.

It's not just someone going like, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, you know? He did consider that, obviously. He did, obviously. That was the first take. He's a major artist. Meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh. You know? He did consider that, obviously. He did, obviously. That was the first take. He's a major artist. Meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh. Yeah, funny, like even outside of the backwards, like, I mean, I guess this is more in the return,

but the kind of like the I am the arm type thing and the, the, yeah. He doesn't know what you're talking about. He's never seen you. Oh, the darkness, future, past, fire, walk with me, all that kind of stuff that feels sort of plucked from your subconscious. His weird phrasing, yes.

Yeah. But yeah, I love that too. I mean, and then going back to the animation thing, yeah, the idea that at any moment somebody could lose their mind and the way that you represent that when you're animating is like just a matter of drawing them slightly differently. A different light comes into somebody's eyes

or they go a little absent. And then it's very a lot... I mean, I know some people who this movie terrifies them. It's scary. Cast the point of being able to actually watch it. That... Not that scary, but it is scary. But I think some of that uncanny stuff of like, you are suspending your imagination or your,

yeah, disbelief, I guess, in watching these animated human beings talk and thinking of them as humans. That's just what we do when we're watching animation. There's an innate abstraction. Yeah, but when that is betrayed, when you are forced to remember you're now watching something that was drawn by people that isn't a person, it's like when somebody has a mask on or

something, it's unsettling. It's like your brain feels like it's being betrayed in the way that their brains are being betrayed by themselves. It's such a great way, that's why animation is so perfect for this story. I mean it's also, it is the aspect of Cone's like filmography and his worldview and his style as an artist that feels like it most directly influenced Darren Aronofsky who does fully credit him as a major influence of just like how scary it is to lose your mind or sense of reality. That it's not just something that's like cool, it's upsetting. Yeah, yeah.

And I think around this time too, I think it is very, you know, you quoted that about the internet from the film. Like, I think that there are a lot of things at this time. But like, I think that Paranoia Agent dabbles in this a lot. One of my favorite series, Serial Experiments Lane, which I talk about too much, but it's just like one of my favorites, is literally about sort of the blurring

of online life and reality. Fuck, this is cool. And it's one of these things where in that one also, it's like you could do the one-to-one physical representation of this, but just having that fuzz, it's like, you could do the one-to-one physical representation of this, but just having that fuzziness of animation there feels like such an invitation to explore these ideas of what it feels like to have this sort of land of the imagination online and then have to like, then you look up from your computer and you're back in the room with your friends and your people. But that kind of repeated transition from one form of life to an other

just kind of breaking people's brains a little bit. Yeah. Well, I think we're living through the aftermath of that. Like in that culturally, most of us went through about a year of primarily living online. I continued to fucking try to do the cleanup on a year of my life where I basically was only socializing performatively through screens. And you were wearing normal costumes and all that. Totally, but also just like never talking to people to their face and being like, well, I'm seeing my friends.

I'm talking to people. I'm staying in touch with them. But there is some tangible difference. Yeah. No, I noticed no difference. And I love Zoom to this day. I came out of it better and stronger. I flew across the country so that we could combat this very phenomenon.

Correct. And so you could see Clifford. So I could see Clifford. Yeah. My friend Clifford. Can we say this quickly? Another guy in a normal headspace at all times. Do you know what happened at the Clifford screening?

No. Oh my god. Yes. There's no other time to talk about it. The good folks at Hollywood Entertainment. They did a big Q&A with Martin Short and a bunch of other folks who worked on Clifford, at GAM.

Yes. It was Short, Richard Kind. The Kind Bar was there. The Kind Bar was there. He was just walking in the back row of the theater pacing back and forth. I almost bumped into him. That subtracts perfectly so far. But also the director and one of the writers.

And they opened it up to Q&A at the end. There was a moderated Q&A and then they opened up to the audience for questions. Always good to do, especially with a movie like Clifford. Ben was prompted to ask a question. I sure was. Ben, do you have to? Alex from Hollywood Entertainment was tapping Emily and I

on the shoulder and was like, Ben should ask something. So what did you ask, Ben? Ben was very nervous. I would be nervous too. I hate asking questions at one of those things. It's very, Ben should ask something. So what did you ask Ben? Ben was like very nervous. I would be nervous too. I hate asking questions at like one of those things. Yeah. It's very, yeah. It's just, they're so often not good.

Yeah. Right? Yeah, sure. And the questions were pretty good. I would say it was a fun Q and A because it went really fast. All the questions were short and the answers were short ironically, especially when Martin Short was answering them.

The answers were really short. They were short and sweet. I like it when it's more of a comment though rather than a question. Well I love that. Oh you love that? Yeah. I'm a huge fan of that. That's my second favorite thing. My first favorite thing is when someone stands up and tells you about the thing that they were working on. Yeah. Oh so good. I love to hear about what other people are working on. So you did both of those things right? You were like so I have in my hand a script called Nitex. I pulled out a screenplay. Now I have more of a comment than a question. All the questions I'd say were pretty good, but also Martin Short, if basically he didn't have a good answer for them, had such a good comeback. He would just make fun of everybody. Burned?

So it was like, the mood was just growing and growing and growing. And then he kept on being like, I think that's our last question. Wait, should we do one more? And Alex is like pointing at the moderator, pointing at Ben, being like, look at him. And Ben is sheepishly like kind of holding his hand up by his shoulder. And I'm like, Ben, up in the air.

So I very respectively addressed him as Mr. Short. And I said that I'm interested in what you brought to the character from your own life. I, as a kid growing up watching this movie, I really loved seeing myself up on the screen. Right. Absolutely. And they got a laugh, including Martin. It broke Marty. He got it, yeah.

And then he said, please escort this man out of the building. That's funny. It was fun. It was pretty fun. And then he said, I don't think there's any of myself in this performance. I was very obsessed with the bad seed. I think I was just riffing on that. Yes.

Yep. I love an honest answer like that. It's just perfect. It was a lot of fun. It was great. Great event. Yeah. Love that.

Clifford also exists in a liminal state between reality and stream at all times, basically. You're like, is everyone going to wake up in this movie? Is that what's going on? Well, you know, in a lot of anime, children are voiced by actual adults. So Clifford is almost like a live action. Clifford's like the original American anime. Clifford also feels like...

It's the original Cowboy Bebop 2022. It's also kind of like one of the weird, like one of the weird dolls in this movie that starts talking to you has kind of like Cliffordy vibes, right? Yeah, yes. Um, one other thing I wanted to just shout out from the OPD sequence. Um, I mean, there's lots of great moments in it, but, um, particularly there's, there's a part where there's a, she goes to visit this man asleep at his computer at an office and she kind of tucks him in and she puts this jacket over him and then goes

like skipping off in a manner identical to Mima, like evil Mima from Perfect Blue. Oh, interesting. The sort of dreamy skip. And I don't know, there's something about it. I love that like you come out of this sequence of four films, starting with maybe the most nightmarish one, Perfect Blue, and this figure of this sort of figment of the imagination that's sort of haunting the main character and skipping blithely through her dreams and her subconscious. And now we kind of see that form, that exact sort of image as this healing

or at least benign sprite-like character, this dream girl type figure. And I just like, I love the, you kind of come out of the filmography with that transmuted in some way like that. I just, there's something really beautiful about it to me. That's a good point, yes.

I mean, it's just so hard not to impose these things on the movie as a final work. I know, I know. Yeah, no, it's unavoidable with stuff like this. But even if it wasn't the final work, I just think like kind of that that is clearly a movement, an image that is stuck in his head through these years, like through his filmography. And now it kind of takes on a different meaning.

And this idea, like, and what's going on in the subconscious of these characters, which is like, Cohn constantly is using animation to get into a state of mind, more so even than, like, represent things that are physically impossible. It's about being able to show what, yeah, just represent a movement. Yeah, an expression of something that is internal and just, it feels like it has been processed at this point from being merely this malevolent

kind of haunting thing, the world of fantasy, the world of, you know, I think in perfect blue, a lot of it is sort of, what's the word I'm looking for? Not repression, but the refusal to grow up. Yeah, sure. There's a word for that. Arrested development, Peter Pan syndrome, a little bit. You know, whatever. And this sort of, yeah, that is sort of what that Mima represents and, you know, spoilers.

Somebody in her life actually trying to literally keep her from growing up and moving on in her life. And I think that there's a more interesting conversation going on in this movie about what dreams represent to people, what dreams represent to him. Like, just the possibility of them of not just being this regressive, not repressive, regressive tendency. Yeah. Well, even just the whole, this movie's built on the idea of, oh, if we had the technology

to be able to actually see other people's dreams, what would this help us literally understand? Right? It's like medical professionals want to be able to use this to unpack and cleanly just unravel this thing that is inherently like an inscrutable through line in all of our lives that you can never totally make sense of. Yeah. And one of the things I've wrestled with over the...

I was just reading an essay I wrote about this movie way back in the year 2010. Bright While Dark Room, check it out. Bright While Dark Room. It's a great Bright While Dark Room. It's an okay essay, I would say. The essay is garbage, but I like the out. Right, well, Dark Room. It's a great, great, great, world. It's an okay essay, I would say. The essay is garbage, but I like the publication. Right, great publication. David!

I wasn't even sure it would still be up, because they wiped a lot of their time. That's even worse! Oh, no! Guys, I wrote a fine essay. But I think I was just skimming it, and I think one of the things I was wrestling with in it, which I still kind of wrestle with to a degree, is like the idea that in a lot of ways, I wouldn't say wrestle with it anymore, I've sort of resolved it in my mind,

but that the chairman and his sort of, what he represents in this argument is on its face, like pretty morally good. Like what he wants, like what he's defending is sort of the sanctity of these inner lives, of these psyches. And the idea, I mean, it's very like whatever you think about if you can, not whether you should type thing with science and all of that. And you know, you guys are playing God essentially. And in a lot of ways, I think that you could make an argument that that is right. That to have the ability, if we did have the ability to somehow intrude in metal with people's

subconscious, that would be dangerous. Not a good thing. And also, aside from whatever earthly consequences that could have, like I think that Inception is sort of about that more of just like what could occur in the real world as a result of messing in people's subconsciouses. Like it's just wrong at a certain place. It is private. It's like leaking somebody's nudes, but to the tenth degree. Your dreams are far more revealing than your physical body or whatever. There's a season of the television series Sailor Moon that is is the entire, like, the bad guys in it are, they steal people's dreams.

That's the attack. There's always some attack that everybody has, like, every season it's like, oh, they steal their hearts. They steal their whatever. And then I think it's like the fourth season. And they stole our hearts, the viewing public, of course. Oh yeah, of course. But the way, like, the way these villains do it, they hold up this mirror to people's

chests and they, like, extract the dream. And the way that it's actually really disturbing for children's animation especially, the way that it's represented is like a rape. It is somebody pinned down, screaming, as this sort of extremely private inner thing is taken from them. And I think that is one way that you could view this technology, the whole idea of somebody partaking of somebody's dream, is that it is intrusive and violent. But I think that's what is so interesting about this film ultimately is

that it is about the, like if you wanna take the metaphor really far, the intruding into people's dreams is what film is, is what storytelling is. And Millennium Actress, I think, really explores that and kind of puts that on the page, at least, as far as his ideas. Her memories are also, her movies are also- Are also all of our memories.

Exactly, are memories of her. Movies are voyeuristic, but they are also, her movies are also... Are also all of our memories. Exactly, are memories of her. Movies are voyeuristic, but they're also dreams. Yeah, and they're also implants. No one has ever made movies seem voyeuristic. No one's ever tried that in a movie before. It's never happened. Griffin, how's your sock drawer looking? Unbelievable, you know why?

Why? Filled to the brim with bombasts. Well, maybe if you're not like Griffin it's time for spring cleaning and refresh. Not like Griffin. Griffin doesn't need to spring clean at all. No I'm sort of the the gallant in this situation. You the listener are the goofus who needs to follow my example. Ben you know from goofus and gallant. Ben looked at me confused. We all know from goofus and gallant. We all know from goofus and gallant, right? Honestly, no. Like I don't think he knows what Goofus and Gallant are.

From Highlights magazine, Goofus and Gallant. Goofus does things wrong, Gallant does things right. Talk about that damn dentist magazine. Exactly. Yeah. And often Ben, I'm the Goofus of the world. Everyone laughing and pointing and doing it. It's saying don't do what Griffin does he's doing it all wrong But when you crack open the old Griffey Noom sock drawer for that brief moment I'm a gallant because it is overflowing with bombas and everyone should follow my lead Here's the thing with bombas David and I learned this the hard way and I'm wearing them right now

I'm wiggling my toesies in them. We're not doing like war and peace level bombasad. Once you try bombas, you'll never look at socks the same way again. They're good socks! They're obsessed with the details! Of course, and they have a great mission, they donate them. Honeycomb arch support, who else is gonna give you that? Anything you purchase, socks, tees, underwear. They don't miss the tax, cushion, footbeds. They donate them to someone facing homelessness.

Well that makes me feel even better about myself. I got a 100% happiness guarantee, so if wrong happens, or you don't like the purchase I'll just do whatever they can to replace it or make it right see this is when I crack open my sock I'm not just patting myself on the back and go and look in good griff I'm also thinking about the equivalent socks that others received for every pair I bought get comfy this spring and get back with bombas Head over to bombus.com slash check and use code check for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash check

and use code check at checkout. B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash check. Bombus dot com slash check. Bombus, the most successful company in the history of Shark Tank. Shark Tank, okay, now we're done. Well, I wrote a skeet on bluesky.com that I'll paraphrase. Wait a second, are they actually called skeets?

They are called skeets. Skeet skeet on the blue sky. Blue skeeting. Because it's sky. Yeah. Okay. I think blue sky for a while I was like, no, they're called posts. And like, the people were like, we've decided they're called skeets.

And they were like, very fine. Jesus. But Emily, you skeeted? You skeeted. I skeeted about, I had been watching, I had been watching Millennium Actress and I'm trying to find it. Well, you should go to the window or to the wall maybe to find it.

Fuck, that's what it is from. Yes, skeet, skeet, skeet. Yeah, no. Is that one doing okay? I'm not even, I mean. Griffin's upset, but I don't even know about which part. No, I'm impressed. That was good joke math, but in a way where I couldn't even laugh at it, like it felt like it knocked the wind out of me.

Like, oh, fuck. Oh. Wasn't it great how Usher did the Super Bowl and I was like, is little John going to show up just to say, yeah, oh yeah, there he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he flew in. I didn't watch he got on my camera yes Yes. Yes. Why? Anyway what my skeet was skeet skeet skeet skeet skeet And it's really appropriate for that

But I said cinema is a contagious mental disorder, but one that everybody has and is benign with the right treatment like HPV. And I think- So you got really specific. Okay, okay. Yeah, but I do generally think that that is my takeaway from the films of Satoshi Kon. And that is how I'm able to reconcile the essential correct position of you should not intrude in people's dreams being, well, they've already been intruded in any way by these

collectiveness that we have. And those things are very powerful and shape how we think of everything, how we think of ourselves, like how we think of ourselves as being within a narrative. There's, I'm gonna completely botch this. I think it was like Freud who was basically like, films have done more than any other narrative to shape our subconscious and like give us a structure within which to imagine our lives.

This isn't a quote, I'm completely paraphrasing. Sure. The invention of the movie was the invention of the movie star and the ability for us to identify and think of ourselves as movie stars within a movie with a beginning and an end. And that is, can be a really corrosive thing, at least a lot of people doing a lot of fucked up shit, because they think they're in a movie.

I don't mean like that they think it's not real, but they're thinking of themselves as being in these kind of linear stories that revolve around them. And I think like taken in the wrong way, stories can be like kind of toxic, but then they can also be wonderful and they can open up your world in all sorts of ways. And so I think there's like a pessimistic and optimistic way of looking at this, which is what I think this movie is about. What do you think Freud would have thought about the fact that Viggo Mortensen would eventually play him in a movie?

Because he didn't really like movies. Here's what he would say. He'd go, I would never fold a pizza that way. Do you understand the joke? I do. Implying that he was playing the character of Sigmund Freud in the film Green Book, which happened to win best picture. Yes, best picture of the year, which is a confirmation that movies are good.

What were you saying? Do we have more Freud business to get to? Nope. All done. I think that's such an interesting comment. I never really thought of that before, but there's an evolution to dreams, right? Like cavemen, primitive men, people, they dreamed. It's an inherent thing that all human beings do,

but the language of dreams has definitely changed. Chunk of called dreams, the original technology. I don't know about that, actually. How about this? The human brain, the original technology. There we go. And dreams, its greatest app. Software.

I would say though, video games are probably also having an effect too on people. Absolutely. And I think that's where you see these big schisms in how one generation relates to the next is like what's its primary, in a way, like what's its primary mode of storytelling. Like I don't dream in video games

because I don't play them. I don't dream in TikTok because I'm not on TikTok. My dreams are incredibly cinematic, unsurprisingly. Like my dreams apply the language of film to whatever I'm trying to work through. I mean, it's like dreams are this unconscious, subconscious processing of whatever things you're going through, right right like there's this fucking

Shorthand of people saying like I don't want to hear you describe your dreams I love hearing people describe their dreams I I feel the way that Emily does where sometimes someone's describing their dream and it's kind of like a little whatever Well, if you're a bad storyteller, right, but sometimes I'm like you're you aren't telling me something quite Real intimacy of like, what is the thing in the way that I like waking up and being like, why the fuck did I dream about that? Yeah.

You know? Like why did that person come back into my head? And sometimes you're like, well, oh right, cause I fucking saw this right before I went to sleep. Yeah. But other times you're like, what is weirdly, why is my brain using this as the metaphor to work through whatever I'm worried about or feeling good about or whatever it is?

And there's this feeling of like, we watch movies, right? The people in this room. And if there is an odd choice, we go like, huh, why did they do that? Like we're thinking about the intent of the people who made the thing. Why was that written? Why was that done in this way? Why did the actor deliver that line? Why was that in their mind? And why are we seeing it this way?

There's nothing in here that... If something really bumps, you're like, was that a deliberate choice that I don't understand or a mistake that was made, but either way, there's some reason that ended up that way. But you wake up in the morning from a dream and you can have that same struggle of like, why the fuck reason that ended up that way. But you wake up in the morning from a dream and you can have that same struggle of like, why the fuck did that happen in that way?

Except you are- It's all you. It's you. Yeah. It's you unconsciously and you're wrestling with like, I mean that, and that's the intimacy of it, of like, why the fuck did I dream that? In a way that is upsetting, but you're like,

but I made myself watch that. Yeah. That then becomes, I mean, then the friction arrives when somebody tells you, oh, you were my dream last night. And like that feeling that you get when somebody tells that to you, where you're like, I mean, I don't know about anybody else, but I, aside from the potential horny implications of that, there is the thing of like, what was I doing? Yes.

Right. Because I didn't have any control over that person. What was the, I mean, that's like called a projection and inception, but like, what was my projection up to? Your imagination of me, what was it doing? It is, yeah. Sometimes they're like, you were a bug and I squash you with a giant rock. Yeah.

It's like, cool, great, okay, that's what you think. Thanks. But that is like the one very like poignant idea that Dream Scenario has, is that people start holding it against him Yeah, there's a good version of a better version It doesn't execute well, but the figures out how that would go of him going from a novelty to being like I'm made Uncomfortable by your presence because in your dream my dream last night. You did something strange. Yeah, yeah

The best part is when he just walks weird Yeah Well cages like he's good putting cage in a scenario where he gets to act out dreams is smart, and the rest of that movie is not very smart. But like, so then the idea of having that weird feeling of I was in somebody else's head, I was doing something, manipulating them in some indirect way, not because I had direct puppet-like control

over that person in their mind, but because whatever I've done in the real world somehow influenced what I was doing there. Yeah. And like, the idea, I guess the idea, the conceit of Paprika is like, what if you actually did have direct control over that? What if you could be this illusion, but have some sense of purpose within somebody's mind?

You... Go ahead, Griffin Newman, and then I wanna say something that might sort of take us off this topic. And it's not gonna be about Viggo Mortensen playing for us. I was gonna say a thing that took us off a topic, so you go off topic first, and then I'll go into a different topic. Emily, just to throw up, you said like the,

you know, the villain of this movie is ultimately revealed to be the chairman. Yeah. Inui. I think that's his name. He's the chairman. He's the chairman. He looks like the crib keeper. He's in a chair. He's the chairman. He's the chairman. He looks like the crib keeper. He's in a chair. He's right, he's in a wheelchair.

There's some sort of vague notion that maybe he wants to kind of transcend his body, right? Yeah. This is what I was going to say if I can branch off this quickly. You mentioned earlier that this is the film where Kone... Branch, what is it, Trolls the Movie? Yeah, a character my therapist famously thinks I'm very similar to. She's correct. Um, the, um, that she used dream technology to look inside my brain.

And she's like, you are branch. Yeah, you need more of it. You can't stop the feeling, or you have to not stop feeling. You should start stopping. Please branch off my thought. Branch? Like from the Trolls movie? Okay.

Um, you said that he, that he was experimenting more with like characterization and he these first three films I'd say the first two in particular have pretty literal character designs obviously there's some degree of stylization inherent in animation but they're pretty rigid on model characters that have fairly realistic human proportions right Tokyo Godfathers the main trio gets a little bit more into classic... They're all different shapes, exactly. ...cartoon silhouettes, right? But it's not stretching it as much.

The three doctors in this movie look like Professor X Toad and the Blob. Yes. Right? Like they are all very extreme. Yes. Obviously, right. The chief is the Professor X... No, sorry, the chief is the Toad.

He's a little guy. Right. Yeah, Shima. The chairman is the Professor X type who's this like really old man who. He's a little guy. The chairman is the Professor X type, who's this, like, really old man who's bald. He's bald, but yes, he's very willowy. And he looks like a slender man in a suit. And then, Takeda is, like, this crazy, like, design, where the inventor is, like, he's overweight, but it's, like, sometimes it feels...

He can fill up an elevator. Exactly. It feels like he changes size, like, depending on the scene. It feels like you're seeing a visual representation of his self-consciousness of his own size. The feeling of like, I've walked into a room that's a little too small for me now, and I'm pouring over. Yeah. I mean, if we want to talk about Tokita a little bit, on that, like, in the book, I

mean, I haven't gotten to the end of it. You said the book is not very nice. The book is pretty mean, but also Japanese people are really mean to fat people in general, and they're very open about body shaming. So there's that. And I mean, there's some of that in this film, and I know some people also. 30 years old, right? Yeah.

And some people like bristle against that a bit. I think what it gets to in the end, and it's interesting to think about it in context of the hoodlum thing you're talking about, is like that when she, and I mean, I know this isn't like nice or like politically correct necessarily, but at the end when she's talking about him

and why she loves him, Otsuko, one of the things she says is that like, you eat everything. And there's a way to be like, see that as like a very body shaming type comment, but there's something about his gleeful consuming of everything. There's some, in the book he is so,

the thing about him is he is childlike and he's very enthusiastic and he wants to do, do, do everything and just forge forward, which is very different from her character. And it's sort of about the balance between the two of them that like you could as an Atsuko or any kind of scientist type look on him with like ridicule and be like, well, he's a genius, but he's also just has no self control. But the idea that like that sort of... The voracious appetite is directly tied to him being a genius. It is the amount that he processes

and collects and engages with. But he also, he's childlike, and he's, like, sharing dreams. What a lovely idea. It's so great. What could go wrong? Like, he can only think of it as, like, a dream, as, like, a hope, like, you know, an imagined future. But that's all these, like, fucking AI tech bros who get on the news and they're like if we keep pushing this technology

We're gonna perfect civilization. Yeah, there is no potential downside and it's interesting to think about that that sort of you know tech tech bro mindset it's being Just childlike as opposed to malevolent because I think right now you know, with how much it's taking away people's jobs and people's artwork and stuff like that, like, it's easy to just look at it as, like, the product of a purely evil, like, negligent to the point of evil mindset. But like, what if they're just like little children? And we have let little children be driving the wheel of, like, everything in society. Like, it's a kind of more complex way of looking at it a little bit,

and even more of a reason that there should be more checks and balances. It's also like Hoodlum Cone without the cone setting boundaries. Cone Pop. Cop Cone. I just think it's interesting that the three Doctor characters are the only three in the quote-unquote reality section of the movie, who do look that extreme. They look like it's, you're like,

am I in the dream right now or not? That's their realistic state. And as you said, it is even fungible when you're in reality. And there are three people who seem to be at odds with their own physical forms. Like, there is this, and it's sort of what Adesuka was talking about at the end of the movie

when she talks about why she loves him, of just like how surprising it is that like the greatest brain in the world is housed inside this body. Which feels like a mean thing to say, but what she's really saying is just sort of like, and it's the whole relationship we have to dreams of like, there is this whole part of you, conscious or unconscious,

that is not directly connected to your physical body. It's almost random, right? And if you are spending all this time in this place, in this dream state where things are more changeable and dynamic, where somebody can show up in any form they want, then it's all the more reason to value that part of them and not the physical form that you interact with

in the mundane world. And so Peter has this great shame. As you said, David, it feels like Inui has this almost contempt for his body or at least a desire for a greater body. Well, that's why he idolizes Osenai, the one normal-looking person. Who is hot, in a boring way, but he's not.

In a boring, hot way. And he's like, I control your body. He keeps saying that in the dream world. To be clear, that's the hot doctor guy who you initially are kind of like, oh, he's a researcher and he's helping. And it turns out he's in league with the chief. He's also obsessed with Atsuko slash Paprika.

Yeah. Everybody is. The single most disturbing image in the movie for me. Is him like putting his hand inside her. It's really, really. Like peeling her. Yeah, it's very troubling. It's among some of the more troubling.

But it's sort of like he's ripping off her dream persona. But the way he's doing it, it's like, it obviously is this like physical assault. But as his hand is going through her, she's like rippling like waves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Forky didn't like it. Forky liked the movie, to be clear, but was distressed by that scene.

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of people kind of physically invading each other's bodies in this water and the dream state, like Paprika kind of getting Shima, the... What is he? The director? Like out of his dream, out of the parade dream by sinking herself into him and blowing him up to like guard the ensuing... Right. Yeah. And like, I was... I know David hated this, but I was like, like that is so much cooler than a kick. You could shoot somebody or you could sink into their body. What I like is that it's falling because that is what happens.

No, it's falling. Yeah, no, it's great. It's great. It's great. But there's just something... It's so fun to just, like that's just such an interesting way to think about... It's almost like you get too big for the dream that you're in. And you have to, like, yeah, you just can't exist in it anymore.

Which is sort of the other way it feels like when you, if you don't have the falling thing out of a dream, sometimes it feels like, oh my God, my consciousness is too big for this space anymore. I have to leave. I dream fairly lucidly, but to an extent that I find frustrating where I don't really feel like I have control over my dreams, but I have intense awareness of the fact that I'm in a dream. Yeah. And there are those moments where I'm like, this dream is going in a direction

other than what I want to be seeing. And I'm trying to pull it back. And it does have that feeling of almost like vertigo seeing. And I'm trying to pull it back, and it does have that feeling of almost like vertigo of falling, where I'm like, no, don't have that character turn into this other character. Don't have me leave this room. Yeah. Yeah. Which this movie does not have clear rules,

like kicks or such. I mean, no one is, by design, trying to establish a set of rules for the audience to understand so that we can enjoy action. It's an instruction manual turned into an action film. By design trying to establish a set of rules for the audience to understand so that we can enjoy Turn it into a technology It's an instruction manual turned into an action film But first this movie is like in you're watching characters in real time be like how would I get out of this work? There is techno babble in it, but yeah there is and there's not an obvious sort of path. Yeah Yeah

I mean the thing about it is that these characters all start off the movie thinking this is a Yeah, I mean, the thing about it is that these characters all start off the movie thinking this is a technology that they know the rules of and how to control and that it so quickly goes off the rails and that the fact that there are no rules and that basically anything can happen like in a dream is sort of what takes them by surprise and causes all sorts of troubles. Yeah, I mean, we could talk about the parade a little bit, which like, and just like how we get there, which is the, the, I mean, at first they think that Tokita's assistant, Himuro, has, has, is the one who's basically stolen the DC Mini and is, is, is

in, in, in imparting his own sort of obsessions into the stream. Right. And initially, we, he's pegged as kind of like, he's the villain. Yeah. Right. Like, this is his, he caused this problem. Yeah. But he's really just a symptom of, right, a larger problem of like this machine is sort of out of control.

And we see that like, you know, several of the other people who work at this institution who are also presumably using this have sort of caught this virus, essentially, that they think at first that Himuro has caused, and that is manifested as this parade. Which feels like, it feels almost like, you guys ever played Katamari Damacy? I played it. Yeah, you're rolling. You're rolling. You're picking stuff up.

You're a big ball. You're this big snowball that you just try to get as big as possible and pick up every... And you can only... The bigger you get, the bigger things you can pick up. It's like being a planet with a greater and greater force of gravity. It's like an insurrection of dream items, right? Like, what was that weird object in the dream? And it's like, what if all of them came together and stormed the Capitol? Yeah. And none of them faded away.

And the capital in this case is fucking reality. Damn. Oh fuck. Sorry, you were saying. No, I was just saying. Like, but the other thing about it is like that nothing is fading away, that it's all staying. And like that's one thing.

Yes, right. You don't wake up and it goes away. Yeah and that's one thing about dreams is that things are ephemeral in dreams, ultimately. It's really annoying when you have a dream like I was having last night, because I'm a little bit sick that you can't get rid of, that doesn't go away, that you feel like you're stuck in this loop.

What was your dream? It was something to do with shampoo. I can't remember, but it was just like, I was going back and forth with these different shampoos and I couldn't get out of this shampoo cycle. It really sucked. I mean, that to me is what Millennium Actress is about. Is that you can't get out of this one fixation, this one dream, and you are just

cursed to repeat it over and over and over again. Which is a little bit, that makes its way into this as well, but like the, the, one of the most menacing things about the parade dream is that it is just getting bigger and bigger. There's no... It doesn't shift, it doesn't go in phases, it's just like a tumor that just keeps growing. And it's got a serious case of the Kool-Aid man. It keeps bursting through walls, like the least expected. But there's this one musical sting that is very repetitive, right? That does not change.

And I don't know if you folks have this, as someone who has bad sleep habits, I know you're in a similar boat, Ben, there are times where like my alarm has been going off for 30 minutes. And I'm like, why am I not waking up? Why did this not get to me? You're hearing it in the dream often.

Correct, my dream starts to justify it as a logic. You're missing the kick. Yes, there's like part of the reality where it's like I'm in some other room Correct. My dream starts to justify it as a logic. You're missing the kick. Yes. There's like part of the reality where it's like, I'm in some other room and for whatever reason, some weird sound is happening, and me and the other people in the dream are trying to locate the source of the sound.

And in 30 minutes later, I wake up and I'm like, oh, my alarm's been going off for half an hour. And the parade music has that feeling to me of just like, why is this just this like constant loop? I had it stuck in my head also all night last night while I was streaming, which was a lot as well because we had just watched the movie right before. Yeah. Yeah, and just having that loop on.

Yeah, and then there's like so literal, it's just like, I watched a movie and it made its way into my dream. I watched the movie about the dreams and their contagiousness and then I got it. I like got it and it was in my dream. It's just, it's kind of magic. The original technology.

The original technology, the killer app. It's wild that this movie also like, in a way that feels armed, builds to a midway point where the characters are talking about dreams inside a movie theater while one character is dreaming of the version of himself that did become a filmmaker and they just start explaining film language. Yes. Yeah.

And illustrating it. He defines the line. A lot of people could watch this and learn something. Wow. I'm joking to everyone. Nobody crosses the line. A lot of people could watch this and learn something. I'm joking to everyone. Nobody crosses the line. It's cool that he crosses the line and shows you how unsettling it is. And then does a flip at it too. But I noticed this because I watched it two times in succession.

So there is a moment where they cross the line early on, which is so key. And I always wonder why this part is so exciting to me. It's right before Shima enters the, like jumps through the window and enters into the parade. And he's running down, it's after he's had his big gibberish monologue and then he starts running down the hall and he says, now, right now! And it flips. You do that, there's two cuts on him from the same angle, from the same distance but opposite angle. And that's the last thing you see before he jumps through the window,

is like this sort of uncanny flip into a place you're not supposed to be. A lot of like high level filmmakers cross the line on purpose to destabilize you by design. No, it's as a flex. Right. It's as a fuck you to their film professors The rules quote unquote a film language, right? Are you don't want to disorient people by doing this? So you can do it. It's all basically trying to create

Maintain a sustained state of dreamlike comfort. Yeah, like if you do things like that, it rattles people Yeah, you want to like Sort of obscure the craft. Yeah, right you want invisible edits. Mm-hmm. You want camera movements sort of obscure the craft, right? You want invisible edits. You want camera movements that aren't showy, because you just want to keep people submersed in the thing rather than reminding them of the artificiality of what you're creating.

No, when I make a movie, it'll be star wipes for every cut. Not just transitions between scenes. Who are you, Trisha Cook? That's cool, you should do that. Bunk. That movie is well edited. I agree. It's fucking fun. I think people don't like it, but I'm like, no,

this is intentional and this person knows what she's doing. But the whole fucking Godard thing was that he was like, anyone trying to create a realism in film is inherently being dishonest. It's like a medium of lies. And so I'm going to do like jump cuts and cross the line and put continuity errors in there

because the only honest thing to do is to constantly remind people. It's like, I know that some people jam and they think that's so exciting, but for me... I find him exhausting. Some of his movies I love. I don't. Not one? What's your favorite? Now remember, you're trying to not piss the fan Oh piss the fans off

Masculine feminine You dislike that yeah Woman is a woman. Do you hate that one too? Yes. I hate that one too. I Establish you hate all of them. No, I like Alphaville. Alphaville rules. Yeah, Alphaville's fun. David's yawning. I don't mind it.

I've always. It's fun. I've always found it kind of like, when I read about it as a teenager, I was like, well, that's gonna be my favorite movie as of all time. And I've never been, I've watched it several times, never been able to quite click into it.

Yeah. I like the early ones, cause I'm a basic bitch. But you know. And admittedly, I haven't wanna quite click into it. I like the early ones, cause I'm a basic bitch. But you know. Admittedly I haven't seen them all. He's quite prolific and there's probably, maybe there's something I like more. My wife almost divorced me after I made her

go see Weekend with me at BAM one time. Really? Yeah. That movie. You were married at that point? No, we weren't. My wife almost dumped me. Pre-divorced.

Because if you're on a weekend, you're like, ah, it's set in a traffic jam, like it's so clever and all that, and you're like, well, that's like 40% of the movie and that part is already kind of a tough hang. And then there's people eating sandwiches while someone monologues about communism. I mean, look. For like a while.

The thing is that like, I get at that point in history that people did want to deconstruct film. Yes, of course, that's what you know. That's the whole. He's so vital to that. Yeah, and at some point you have to do that. It's like being a teenager. You have to, you've spent your childhood being,

you know, swept up by these stories and the way in which, you know, they alter your reality and your consciousness and your dreams and all of that. And then you're like, what if we just fucked with it? And what if we like, what if we gave the middle finger to film? And like, that's all very well and good.

I just don't care to spend, like, I know that that was a necessary moment of evolution for the form, and it's just not what I'm interested in for as far as what I, why I like this art form, what I'm interested in with it. I love to have my beliefs suspended. I love to have the edges blurred. I, that, that is what draws in with it. I love to have my beliefs suspended. I love to have the edges blurred. That is what draws me to it. I feel like there's just such a possibility in that. I love to see a pig herd sheep better than any dog ever could. I know. It's like, and I believe it when it's happening. I absolutely believe that pig is the best sheep herder in history.

He is. There's a record on it. He's a very good pig. It's called Babe the Movie. Yeah, and he's a really good pig. But that'll do. Can he be the best pig? That will do though. That's enough. That's enough.

That's cop con. That's cop con. George Miller is like, ah! No more! But that'll do. How funny would it be if the actual final line was like, okay, that's enough. That's enough paprika. Don't get too fucking big for your britches.

Don't go crazy now. Don't move to a fucking city. Okay, I'm throttling us into plot mode. I know this is not a movie we can like really easily go beat by beat on, but obviously we talked about the opening stuff, where she's dealing with this guy's dream, and then yes, like she works at this company, the DC Mini has been stolen, nonsensical things are starting to happen. People are losing their minds and doing inexplicable things.

And when you enter their dreamscape, it feels like all the dreams are mashing together into a giant Katamari Demancy snowball. Shima jumped out the window, and they cannot tell if he lost his mind because of spending too much time in there or if someone had hijacked his mind and was acting within him or what. Yeah. But something weird is afoot. So yes, the chairman is always like sitting in front of books and being like, I am very normal and not the villain of the movie at all. And nothing weird is going on with me. I look, yes, like a fucking Slender Man ghost.

He just comes in and just says absolutes about science. Right, and I'm banning the device, that'll fix it. Obviously that fix nothing. No, only a Sith deals in absolutes. That should have been the first hell. But so, Memily, because you were saying he kind of has a point. What is his, apart from wanting to transcend his own body and kind of control this world,

what is his goal in like doing all of this? I mean, that's a great question, right? Because I think I think part of it is that he becomes intoxicated by the dream world that he's trying to control. Like he becomes a victim of it as well. This sort of, I mean, one of the themes of like everybody experiences when they enter this parade dream is like, they are at the top

of this pile of stuff, basically the kind of king of it. And there's like a megalomania to this dream, this false sense of power that is the thing that everybody, you know, leads people to jump through windows because they think they can do whatever they want. And I think the way I've read it, at least these last couple of times, is that like he is not immune to that and that he becomes the biggest megalomaniac of all, like trying to basically turn the real world into his own kind of playground

where he is all powerful, has legs, has giant legs, because he's huge. And it's just like the opposite of everything, you know, that he's constrained by in the real world. It is the thing that is disturbing though, when you have to witness someone who is experiencing a psychotic break from reality is there is a sense of very high stakes to them. Like they are caught up in a reality that feels very urgent and dangerous to some degree. You know, like you witness people who just are very intent that what they're talking about is right and correct and that this needs to be solved immediately.

Be it like, you know, the video that went viral of the woman yelling at the guy on the plane or things like that where it's just like, you need to believe me, this is happening right now. It's not real. It's very... I really wanted that to be the beginning of paprika. Yeah.

You know, in our life. And it's just like, dude, I was just having like a really shitty time. It's like on some weird combo of things. Not to go all fucking like stoner on the floor about it, but it's like, that's what movies are, right? Like movies are a woman standing there about it, but it's like that's that's what movies are right like movies are a Woman standing there and going oh my god. He's there. He's killing me Yeah, and there's no one off camera and then later they shoot Robert Englund once they get him out of the makeup truck sure Absolutely, and those are the fake stakes that you're creating

I also just want to call out to Kida in the dream world exists in the form of like an old wind up robot. Sort of. It's like a toy robot. Where his head is like a TV screen, which makes a ton of sense for his psychology of just like, I wish I had like a controlled mechanical physical form where my thoughts could just be like projected on a screen on the outside of my body.

And I didn't have to think about like any organic matter. I'm like a brain in a robot. And it's also like it comes from this robot that's on his shirt that's also at this like Dreamland like shut down, shuttered down amusement park that both him and Himuro are obsessed with which is very haunting a great place to set something like this. The parade feels like it's made up entirely of like childhood times. Cause even like the dancing appliances in it look older.

They're like retro 50s, 60s fridges and things like that. It's just a childish concept, right? Everything coming to life. It's sort of brave little toaster scenario. Like stuffed animals and yeah. And the way that they, in the dub, or not in the dub, in the original dialogue, at least the way that people speak, especially at the end when it merges into reality

and you have everybody joining the parade and chanting these things, the kind of cadence of the chant is very old-timey, like festivals and stuff where people, there are several where people kind of do these coordinated dances and it kind of has that ta-da-da-da-da-da type cadence. And that's very like old timey Japanese. It's also like in, there's a little bit of that in Spirited Away

at certain points where people kind of speak in that. There's a more ceremonial... It's sort of ceremonial, sort of, yeah, folksy a little bit. Right. And that's kind of where that comes from. But what was I going to say about Tokita? Tokita, who eventually goes in by himself in his energy of like, I'm sure I can solve this.

Yeah. Like, we just need to figure it out and immediately get sucked into the dream. You're my friend. Yeah. Yeah, that's very naive. We just need to figure it out and immediately get sucked into the dream. You're my friend. Yeah. Pull our heads over the hill. Yeah, that's very naive.

Right. Right. Yeah, this naive belief that a personal connection in reality, a grounded connection to somebody, can supersede the power of this dream, which has just snowballed at this point. I did want to call one thing, which is I'm sure that there's the cone houses own inspiration for the theme park in this But like if anybody wants to see wants to see the real version of dreamland IRL You can just go in Berlin to this thing called spree park SPP parts SPR EE Park

It's it's a it's a shutdown amusement park from it might be like It might be like, it might be pre-war, honestly, I can't remember. It's really haunting. It's post-war. It's post-war, okay. It's from the late 60s, yes. Is it the one in Hannah, the Joe Wright film? Possibly.

I don't know. It's got a big Ferris wheel that's maybe still there. It's all like covered in moss and stuff. It is one of the most, like you feel like you're walking into a movie. Like, you can't believe it exists in real life type places and that, definitely. I saw that after I had seen Paprika multiple, multiple times and was like, oh my God, I'm in Paprika right now. It's pretty cool.

Yeah, this looks pretty cool. I mean, nothing's cooler than fucking abandoned amusement park. Just... Yeah. Yeah. And there's like some like painted, you know, faded like metal sculpture or whatever. I mean, what you're talking about,

like nature overtaking the inorganic. Yes. Right. When you have like manmade objects that like are now covered in moss and shit. I always find that spooky. Yeah. Evocative. But like, again, like these things that both Himuro ostensibly,

because we never really meet him as such, and Tokira are obsessed with, are these things of childhood. Like the robot that Tokira turns into is this figure from this park that's also on his shirt. He's obsessed with all these little toys. He's very- The apartment full of doll heads. I think I can't relate to it.

You weren't fighting with that at all. Yeah, I mean, I can only imagine what Griffin's contribution to the giant parade would be. If he was to- Oh boy. The parade just quadrupled in size. I would just take a look directly behind me. That's like the opening.

The parade right here, yeah. That's just the first. For the listeners at home, there's a bunch of fucking toys. A lot of memorabilia and toys Griffin has brought here No, I mean I've contributed so much to this shelf Yeah, yeah, you're actually struggling to see something I brought where I want to just like do just take a picture of Ben in front of this like and really frame it so that all you can see is the toys and just play the Susuma here a

song music over it It's pretty it's a lot it's a lot. It's a lot. We should definitely do that. But, yeah, I... But I think, like, this idea that's sort of wrapped up in... The idea of regression. And the idea of this all being tied to childhood. Which, of course, it would be.

If you're talking, like, in psychoanalytic terms, this is all stuff that has to do with your deep... The deepest wounds, the most primal things that happen to you as a kid. Those are the things that still find their way into your dream. You're still dreaming about being late to class. Even when you're like in your 30s. Fucking dream right now. It sucks.

And like that being a part of, I think, what somebody like the chairman is sort of frowning upon. It's like, we don't want to, you know, muddle in this stuff. Like, there is something, like, you know, let's all be grownups here. Let's not, you know, muck around in these, or encourage, I guess, these dream states, these regressive dream states. Well, it's because it's coming from this place

of like the human psyche is a thing that can be solved. It can be perfected in this very like tech line of thinking. Yeah. Of like you can just get the bugs out of any system. Yeah. Okay. There's two things that happen in the dream world that we need to talk about. One is, so you got Osanai, Osani?

Osanai. Osanai, who is the hot young doctor who's sort of the, you know, enforcer for the chief in the dream world. He is one obsessed with Chiba and Paprika, as we said, and sort of like peels her, right? But then there's also this big battle he has with Kanakawa that is his demise, that is very like unspoken thing where he's kind of in charge of the dream, and then Kanekawa kind of takes charge of the dream. Sure.

And it's this dream Kanekawa is having of like, yeah, like a hotel hallway with a body falling that he's shot, and it's him, and like, what does it mean? And perspective keeps distorting. Right, and when he's running, the walls melt and all that. And then he's thinking about it with Paprika when she's trying to help him through the dream. He's realizing, right, this is me reckoning with the choices I made

as a young Pan and the path I followed. We already talked about it. A young Pan. Young Pan, you know, like a Joe Wright kind of a vibe. Two of his movies have come out. Wow. I'm gonna think of a third to squeeze in here. And...

He's kind of a soloist in terms of... Oh, shh. He used to be doing a duet with his young friend and then he went off, what are you, what are you... Just, if we ever do Joe right, that's the one we're gonna be kind of like white-knuckling and sort of fucking soloist. Oh my God.

So, and then he, you know, Kanekawa finally like takes control and shoots us and I. Sure. Right? Killing him both in the dream world and the real world. Yeah. So, Kanekawa finally takes control and shoots Osanai. Sure. Right? Yep. Killing him both in the dream world and the real world, and sort of self-actualizing, all at the same time. Yes.

And it's kind of like, I love how we've been seeing this image from the start of the movie. And it's no point does anyone ever say to him, like, here's what you have to do, or like, here's what the thing is with this recurring dream of yours. But when it happens, it does make a sort of dream logic, he sends to the viewer of what has happened or what has changed about that. Griffin's playing Disney Emoji Blitz right now. I am not on my laptop, that's not how it works, David.

I knew that would make you so mad. Yeah. So that's one thing, like that's one little sort of mini arc in the dream world. Right. That is interesting. Yeah. And it's how those two storylines converge because for a long time it's like Paprika

doing her own kind of renegade psychology with Konakawa and going into his recurring dream and trying to figure that out. Meanwhile, like it's just Otsuko for a long time who is investigating the viral dream, the parade dream. And then, you know, we kind of have hints from early on that they're the same person, but when she finally like acknowledges it and it becomes like a spoken thing,

it's like the first time she dives in to investigate it for herself. And that's when she discovers this Osanai and the chairman link. Right, and Paprika, right. Paprika obviously is right, is her dream avatar, essentially, right? Dream adventure.

Right. It's funny because in the book, she literally dresses up like that. When she goes to meet the character who takes the place of Konakawa in it, she goes literally to the radio club, like it's a real place. She changes her outfit and puts on a wig

and paints freckles on her face to look like Paprika. Which is so funny, like I, when I realized that in the book, I was like, that's absurd. Like I love her just being the sort of shifty thing that exists. Because she looks completely different. She does. She doesn't look like Atsuko with the...

It's not just a different outfit. Her bone structure is different. Yeah. And I... But that's what like... Which is cool. Yeah. Which we like. It's great that like, you know, it is all about like what one perceives, like I think, like...

That even in the real world, you can see what you want to see in somebody else. But within the dream world, I mean, she is functioning as like a literal escort for her clients, not escort as like a term for it, but she's like the one who is guiding them through and creating some sense of security and understanding for them. And then the last like 20, 30 minutes of this movie, the detective is basically like stuck without her. And the two bartenders played by Kone and Satsui, who you have to assume are like extensions of his own psyche,

are the ones guiding him through and say... Like it's so fascinating metatextually that the writer of the novel and the film become the two characters who ultimately have to like lead him through to catharsis. And it's ultimately like, yeah, those are his constructs. He doesn't have Paprika anymore. Like he can... He's doing it himself.

Yeah, he can be on his own. And that's like, that's the growth. Yeah. But the Paprika thing is also important. The sort of- Is she important? She's an important character. Okay. The convergence of the two characters as things go on,

right? Yeah. The implication to me is like when Osanai um, uh, Us and I, like, peels her, that kind of frees Paprika in a way and makes Paprika her own character. Yes. Right? Like, when she's returned, she has become basically just a dream person. And they have in the big sort of showdown at the end of the movie where there's suddenly a gigantic hole in the city

and the chief is turned into a Godzilla and is walking around, and all this stuff, Paprika is like completely unempathetic to Takeda. She's like, forget him. Like, I don't know what to say to him. Like, he sucks. He's annoying. And like that must be part, like the further she's getting away from like that. Yeah. But then... Atsuko is the one who has to like elect to help him. must be part, like the further she's getting away from like that. Yeah. But then... Atsuko is the one who has to like elect to help him and like admit her love for him.

And I love that because like when, you know, we see it as them interacting as two humans, but it's like giant Atsuko just like holding robot Tokita and Paprika looks at like after she sort of made her declaration of love and she's like, Atsuko's dreaming. And it's so sweet because it's like that's also been like a running thing is that she can actually dream. Right. She's kind of freeing up that side of herself.

Yeah. So that's what's been freed like from the separation. Again, like the showdown at the end is, you know, surreal, but like, It's a little crazy. Yeah, Paprika essentially jumps into Takeda to make the sort of baby that then eats the chief, like sucks him up like a vacuum cleaner, like Takeda, right? Like I eat everything, right? Yeah, yeah.

And then grows and turns into a giant kind of hybrid Atsuko Paprika naked, and then goes poof. Yeah. Which is cool. Yeah. And Nolan ripped that off frame for frame. It's so creepy when Leo does that in Inception. Yeah, this becomes a giant naked lady.

Yeah. I mean, there's something to me that's so, I love the idea of this, and it goes back to the childhood thing. It's like, you know, only this child, only this like naive baby figure can have the power to kind of dispel all this and actually like be so voracious, so like incurably voracious that you can kind of bring balance back to a world taken over by chairman-like figures. And there's something very hopeful and like, you know, like I don't know, I think that as wild as that imagery is, I think there's something super like moving about it.

Well, this is also one of those movies with a perfect final line, a final line where you're like it knocks out where you're like It's so good. It's not too clever, but you're like there's the whole movie right there There's not a single word that needs to be said after this mm-hmm one adult Please a term we use all the fucking time is movie going freaks that we do not imbue any larger meaning on you're just telling People how much you need to pay for your ticket right I guess we Must buy tickets fucking online now. Well you say one adult and you have to acknowledge I am an adult who's going to go see a movie and I'm gonna engage with it like and he's going to see a movie called Dreaming kids which honestly let's check out dreaming kids. I want to know what happens in that movie

He's like avoided watching his whole adult life. Yeah. And now that he's finally like processed his... Yeah. He can go see... He can self identify as an adult and go to the movies and start... Go to a movie about the dreaming kids and view it as a healthy adult, like a well adjusted, ideally adult. Yeah.

And that's like, that to me is such a cone theme, ultimately. Like, this isn't even a spoiler. I mean, I started rewatching Paranoia Agent because it is, well, it's one of my favorite TV shows ever made. Because you're a girl who likes to vibe. I love to vibe. That show is one of my favorite things that's ever been made let alone like one of my favorite TV shows And the opening of it is so that's why I say it feels like kind of

Yeah, it's like sketches and preparation for paprika in a lot of ways because it opens with this montage of everybody in Tokyo like crammed into the Train like busy walking in the street and everybody's on their phones and it's this kind of Greek chorus of everybody being like, I can't do this, like I couldn't help it, I was forced to do this. Like all these very kind of abstract expressions of helplessness, of like I don't have any power, blaming things on other people.

And it's very much cop coneohn coming, like, the series, not to spoil anything, is a lot of Cop Cohn coming in and being like, these are like escapist fantasies that people are, you know, falling into to avoid essentially being adults. And I think ultimately, like, as fun and imaginative and all this freewheeling stuff that Cohn is, which we love him for, I think the reason I really love him is that he really is grappling with, like, what it means to grow.

Yeah. And, like, and, and, and, and, like, reckon with the real world in, in, in a way that I think he doesn't, I think as a human being, want people to let go of that even as he is letting us like into these wild fantasies. It's always about like, well, what are you going to do in the world? What are you going to do with yourself in your real life? And I just love that. I think he's, I think it can be like quite poetic through his, in his hands. I mean, one of my favorite movies that I've watched

so many times is the documentary that Lance Bangs and Spike Jonze made about Maurice Sendak. Yeah. That was them filming interviews with him over years as they were developing and then filming the Where the Wild Things Are movie called Tell Them Anything You Want. Yeah.

That is a lot of Maurice Sendak like dealing with, I have no idea. I don't understand why I got stuck on childhood. Why I am like stuck just kind of making works about the nightmares of children basically. Like it is not a choice. It is not that that's like what I like as a business strategy or career strategy. Sure. Right. Yeah. It's not like he's just like, in some way, my psyche got stuck in the dial. Yeah. In other ways, I feel like I've always been a 90 year old man. Like it's a 90 year old guy being like, I'm going to die tomorrow.

But also, and be like, I felt this way my whole life. I was forced to grow up, you know? But then also like, I cannot artistically move past basically the feelings of an eight year old and doing them in a somewhat mature way. But then also like, I cannot artistically move past basically the feelings of an eight-year-old. And doing them in a somewhat mature way, but I do think a lot of the most interesting artists in sort of like childlike areas, right? People who work in areas of like high genre or high fantasy or sort of childlike logic or whatever, always kind of fighting themselves internally.

I don't understand why this is what I keep going back to. Some are, but I think there's a lot of indulging in the thing itself. I guess more less, and I guess stuff made expressly for kids, and I'm thinking more of just like the biggest entertainments of our... Yeah, that we are living in a permanent regressive adolescence and that's why even, you know, beyond the obvious talking points like Marvel or whatever the fuck or just endless remix of Star Wars, you even just have in pop music,

we're just doing all the songs that we liked when we were teenagers all over again, that we're kind of stuck in this loop without a future. And that does feel like a sickness. That feels like some sort of social ill right now. I hate to be like judgmental about things, but when you look at it as a whole, it does feel like we're a little bit stagnant right now

as a culture. And I think that's the kind of thing that... David. Everything feels good right now. Everyone's brains. We love it. Yeah. Everyone's ways of processing reality.

And talking to each other. Yeah, it's great. And having fun. Yeah. But that like... We're having fun. Things like this or like Matrix Resurrections, where it does feel like the storyteller's going like,

why are we doing this? Yeah, why are we still doing it? Yeah. And yeah, I think the Vachaskys are incredible at talking about this stuff too. They are like, you know, among the few like sage, big scale pop culture storytellers who have a grasp of that, I think. Yeah. But yeah, I think... But yeah, I think that's sort of the debate going on in all of Cone's work about the... Is this going to be an opiate of the masses?

Or is this going to be something that can actually heal people and let them move forward with their lives? And that it's both, ultimately. It kind of functions as both, and you kind of gotta live with that. I think that is very well said. Do you think Dreaming Kids, which is such a great title, like, is something Cohn wanted to make? It's some kind of, like, you know, fantasy project of his,

that he was always thinking about? Or is it more like, no, this is the kind of like, you know, fantasy project of his, like that he was always like thinking about, or is it more like, no, this is the kind of thing like that he would have been waiting to see. Did you put in the dossier, there was the sort of- Dreamland thing, the shorts. The project that he died trying to get off the ground was called The Dream Machine.

The Dream Machine, or Dreaming Machine, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a sort of young adult fantasy. That was him explicitly trying to get off the ground was called The Dream Machine. The Dream Machine or Dreaming Machine, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a sort of young adult fantasy. That was him explicitly trying to make a film for children for the first time. But it was going to be all about robots. So I guess it's a vague connection at best. Yes. I mean, the thing that I think of when I think of this sort of argument about regression and pop culture is always, I'm just going to be

as like, guys, you can like what you like. Enjoy the movies that you enjoy. What's she going to shit on now? I have my opinions about things and that's fine. And it has nothing to do with what you think about or what you like. Enjoy what you enjoy. But the, I'm not talking to you guys the the the motion picture inside out I'm gonna say Clifford sorry no we all love childhood and are we about to meet joy or anger right Emily talk Out. I think I'm getting anxiety. I mean, fear. Excited new character for meeting this summer in Inside Out 2. All my criticism is based in fear.

Um... Right. Um, but one of the things that irritated me so deeply about that movie was the... I mean, this is a larger complaint about... I have about Pixar in general, or like the ethos of Pixar in general, but like the whole conceit of Bing Bong, the imaginary friend. Wait, this is Clifford Coded and that's Richard Kind. Yeah, I mean like nothing against Richard Kind.

It'd be weird if you were like, what I don't like about it was Richard Kind. He's bringing what he needs to bring. He feels miscast. But there's something in that film about how this figment of childhood that got this child through some things... Sure, some imaginary friend from... Needs to die, needs to sacrifice himself.

Well, but it's not... The film doesn't have a healthy way of looking at it, I don't think, because it still tugs at your heartstrings, and you as the viewer don't want Bing Bong to die. And I think a more responsible film would be like, no, fuck him, kick him over the cliff. Wait a second. For one, these films are for children. No, I know, I know, but I'm just saying, like, I...

Again, I also don't... I don't think that you should make films are for children. No, I know, I know, I know, but I'm just saying, like, I, again, I also don't, I don't think that you should make a film for children about the brain of a child like that. Like, I think it's just like, I think it can only wreak havoc, but I just personally, it's distasteful to me and unnatural, but I... You're watching Herman's head and you're like, this is personally distasteful. Now, let's just remember, Emily started these statements with, don't get mad at me,

so you're not allowed to get mad at me. You know, I've only seen Inside Out the one time. I only saw it in theaters. Really? Never seen it again. I saw it at the Cannes Film Festival. It was there. Do you like Inside Out?

You like Inside Out. I like it quite a bit. But I have only seen it the one time. It's not one of my top tier picks. I liked it when I saw it. That is funny, because your review at the time was, I can't wait to see it again.

Really? Yeah, I feel like I remember your review of Inside Out, or at least your fucking tweet out of the theater being like... I'll watch this one again. The whole time I was watching it, I was thinking how badly I can't wait to watch it a second time, which is the ultimate compliment, or something like that. Emily had the opposite reaction.

Uh... Yeah. I can't find a tweet by myself about it, but that doesn't mean anything. I was gonna say something about Inside Out. Well, I just feel like Toy Story 3 has the same problem where it's like, they're like, aren't you sad about this? And I'm like, giving your toys away?

You gotta do it. It's why I think Toy Story 4 is better than Toy Story 3. I think Toy Story 4 is better. Toy Story 4 makes Toy Story 3 look like toys. Yeah, I mean, I think Toy Story 4 is better than Toy Story 3. I think Toy Story 4 is better than... Toy Story 4 makes Toy Story 3 look like toys. Yeah, I mean, I think Toy Story 4 has become my second favorite Toy Story in the re-watching that I'm doing endlessly with my child. But anyway, that's not important.

But we have not done Inside Out yet. You haven't been watching 3 with her, right? We watched it a couple times. It's her least favorite. The only thing she likes is the big baby, which I agree with her, the big baby is good. Like, look, I think it's a great idea to make a movie for kids about their toys. That's cool. It's her least favorite. The only thing she likes is the big baby, which I agree with her. The big baby is good. Yeah. Like, look, I think it's a great idea to make a movie for kids about their toys.

That's cool. But I think after a while... You're right. It is good and cool. I know you love them, but like, I just think after a while, it's like, I start to feel like the chairman where I'm like, let kids have their toys. Let you, let them like, this imposed... Are you imposing rules on them?

There's not a narrative that's being imposed on how toys work, what their feelings are, what you're supposed to do with them. That's why Toy Story's annoying, where they're like, when you stop playing with your toys, you're hurting a sentient, immortal being. And I'm like, what? Bro! I don't like the use of the word annoying here. Go on.

I mean, it's just, it's... If anything, it's indulgent, because I think as a kid, you think that anyway. Like, I really assigned a lot of, you anthropomorphize your toys, you assign them emotions, you feel bad when you think they feel lonely. And if anything, I think it would be a more interesting endeavor to make a kid's movie where that's not an issue,

where the toys are actually stoked when you're away. And they live their own lives and they can be separate from you like Sort of true in twister, but no one ever says it until like Bo Peep in the fourth one That's no one's ever seen the for Alan that I haven't seen the You might like Emily for fucking with the shit you're talking the fork is the one that's the most about like toy sentience Right then like they're not extensions of us, they're their own free. But anyway, I mean, not important. Can't talk about Toy Story more on this podcast.

Illegal. We're talking about the relationship between dreams and movies, right? And play and childhood. There is this fascinating thing. You think about Toy Story being the first film Pixar makes, not knowing the outsized cultural influence it was going to have, that it would be a series that would last for decades because we can't ever move on from anything, right? I mean, all these things we're talking about, that is a movie of a bunch of adults who to

some degree are stuck in a sustained state of permanent adolescence trying to write a movie based on the logic they remember having as a child. When I was a child, I played with toys and thought of it like this. And that becomes a movie that then codifies a logic that is then applied back to children who are watching it rather than adults reflecting back on it. And I was hanging out with my friend and his daughter who's like four and a half years old maybe. And she watches Toy Story a bunch. We went to Chuck E. Cheese. She got like fucking toys from the prize in the backseat of the car. She was like acting out scenarios. All my daughter does is use the toys to act out scenarios, right?

And he was like, Emily's been witnessing it. It's interesting how much she does this and it sounds like Bonnie in Toy Story. Mm-hmm. Like she's in the state where they have voices and narratives and this and that. And then I was like, do you think that is that movie getting that right? Or do you think because she's been watching Toy Story from such a young age, she is play-acting? But I like your question. But it's an interesting question. I don't have an answer. If it wasn't Toy Story, she was play-acting. It would be something else, she was play-acting. Totally. But it's the difference of like... Are you play acting?

Like, in Toy Story, Andy is play acting a Western with his toys, right? That is, he is taking the Western stories he has seen in media, and he is like... Because he's a child that lives in the 1950s. Yes, and he's telling them through his toys. Whereas if you have movies about kids playing with toys and imbuing them with life, are the kids then acting out, acting out? Bonnie is such a gigachad compared to Andy.

That's all I'll say. I'm not denying that, but I think you're too hard on Andy. Fucking hate Andy. Andy's moves well. Man, you know what looks weird when you watch it now? Toy Story 1. I only think the Andy of it. No, there's other things,

but it's mostly the human face is obviously the strangest. The Andes. Because Sid looks weird too. Yeah, they all have weird mouths that are full of too many teeth. Sid's mouth is a tough hang, for sure. But in a way that's like, I think it helps the movie. Sure. Okay.

I think he looks monstrous in a way that helps. It's better than, yeah. Versus Andy is, yes. Hey, hey, hey. You know it's like. Sorry, I can't do it on Andy is, yes. Hey! Sorry, I can't do it on Andy impression. It's impossible. I cannot make my face look like that. Yeah, count me in. It's hard. You were just pulling your skin back like Brazil style.

Exactly. Alright. I'm gonna read from the dossier. Okay. Because we're so off track and we're, you know, wrapping up. Nah. Yeah. Sochi Cohn felt like he'd reached the end of an era with the release of this movie. This movie premiered at the Venice Film Festival.

Big deal. And then at New York, he had leveled up beyond, you premiered at an animation festival. His movies would get a lot of pomp and circumstance in Japan and then would get, would premiere at sort of, yeah, like animation, anime specific festivals in the States and then get a release much later. But his whole thing is like, yeah, like animation, anime-specific festivals in the States and then get a release much later.

But his whole thing is like, he was like, look, I read this when I was, you know, before I made any movies, I kind of was playing with these themes in my early movies. I have now made Paprika. What do I do? I've got some closure. I'm not gonna abandon this topic,

but I do feel like I've reached a goal on this kind of like dream, you know, reality thing. if there's a little bit of like the the Fosse all that jazz thing where it's like I kind of felt like this was Gonna be my last movie and I don't totally know what to do with myself now Even though cone was not Chronically, you know, no no, but but yeah Obviously like like we said he was sort of planning on making basically a children's film, this dreaming machine movie, fantasy adventure targeted at younger audiences. But then obviously in May 2010, he's diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.

He says his biggest regret is he didn't get to make the movie that, you know, the people he worked with didn't get to finish the movie. Some people apparently have tried to salvage it, because there's some storyboarding and stuff like that, but then finally we're kind of like, it's his movie, it would never be doable really. Yeah. Somebody will AI it.

I mean, by which I mean AI the motion picture and not... Of course. He was an avid blogger, and there was one final blog post he wrote that his family posted posthumously that JJ included here. But his final blog post is him basically apologizing to everyone who worked with him. Right, that's what I'm referencing.

The notion that their work was going to go wasted because he would not be able to make the film. And the end of it is, I haven't been idly waiting for death. Like, the need to apologize for, like, I don't want you to think I've just been lazily dying. I haven't been idly waiting for death. Even now, I'm thinking with my weak brain of ways to let the work live even after I am gone. But they are all shallow ideas. When I told Maryam Masan about my concerns about Dreaming Machine, he just said,

"'Don't worry, we'll figure out something, so don't worry.'" I wept, I wept uncontrollably. Oh, God. Obviously, his death was sort of shocking because nobody really knew he was sick, and so, you know, it kind of came out of nowhere for 99% of people. A lot of filmmakers, both Japanese and American, you know, outpouring of, you know, love and

sort of this, you know, influence and all that. But you know, what can you do? It is the end of his career. There's no more. And a totemic body of work that has just only continued to grow in every passing year. Very true. We should do the box office game. But what are your rankings? Are there any more Paprika things? Yeah. So you can have any ranking you want.

It's four masterpieces. It's tough to really worry about it too much. I do think... I think it's gotta be your personal preference and not what you think is the superior film, because I think they're all pretty great. I have Paprika Blue, Millennium, Tokyo. Oh, interesting. But I could be talked into a lot of order. That was top down.

Yeah. Top down. Paprika first, Tokyo last. Millennium is my favorite with a bullet, but I feel it just hits certain things for me. That's such a griffy movie. It's a very griffy movie. It is so griffy. Yeah, it's such a good movie. It's really, it's sometimes, when I'm watching it,

I feel like it's my favorite. You're like, this is not just his best movie, but like one of the great movies. Which is how I feel watching basically all his movies. Emily, I feel like Perfect Blue is probably your heart's favorite. It's probably my favorite. Yeah, it's my... I just think it's...

I dressed up as Mima for Halloween like like, two years ago. Like, I... I... I'm... Like, I just think that movie does so much and is so impressive as the first movie, but then this one is like, he wasn't able to even do the stuff that he's able to do in Paprika yet, like, on a technical level, and also just where he was as a storyteller. And so, it's hard for me to even rank those. But I think as far as my personal faves,

I think it probably goes, yeah, Perfect Blue, Paprika. God, it's so, it's just like Millennium Actress doesn't feel like it should be third, but I love it, because I love it. It's just, yeah. I don't know. Because you don't need to stress it, because right, they're basically,

to me it's like kind of like 10, 10, 10, 10, 9, or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, they're all high level. I would say I go Millennium Actress 1, then Perfect Blue number 2, Paprika number 3, Tokyo Godfathers number 4. But Tokyo Godfathers is still in the top 10% of movies we've ever covered on the show. I love that movie.

Yeah. It's hard. They have a bunch of hobos. Yeah, they rule. Yeah, they're hard. They're a bunch of hobos. Yeah, they rule. Yeah, they're pretty cool. They've got some rough edges. Well, that's truly makes them human though. Some unsavory aspects. I mean, and then, you know,

if we're including Paranoia Agent in that, then it gets all fucked up for me because I'm tempted to say that Paranoia Agent is my favorite thing, but it's hard because there are some episodes that are stronger than others. But as a whole, as like a thing, like I put it up there with Twin Peaks as far as like just overall creations

by somebody that I admire and have been extremely, you know, influential to me. I haven't seen it yet. Yeah. We're recording that episode later. It's the one thing, you know, I haven't checked out yet. So I can't speak to it. The one thing you haven't checked out is Parano it yet. Yeah. While we're recording that episode later. It's the one thing I haven't checked out yet. So I can't speak to it. The one thing you haven't checked out is a Paranoia Agent?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know that this is not a Paranoia Agent podcast, but I- We're doing that on Patreon though. It will have come out by now. Yeah, I mean, the other thing that I would say just, that I think it has to do with his full filmography

and that one as well is that I think what he's able to do on that show, that he gets out on a spiritual level in Paprika, but I think he's able to get on a more minute level in Paranoia Agent, is that I think he's, in addition to these individual characters, he's so interested in sociologicalological phenomenon and like what the interconnectedness of people and how everybody's fortune sort of and the stories that we're telling each

other all kind of feed onto one another, which is why I think that like Tokyo Godfathers, even if it's not my favorite, is just so integral to like the Kohn vision to me, because that movie is so much about a bunch of people from disparate parts of Tokyo, all like kind of eventually being symbiotic in some way. And that is such a, like, I think that's an underrated part of his, what he's interested in, what I think he does well, is like this super humanistic,

just embrace of everybody and all of their concerns and worries and fears. And yeah. That feels very genuine. It doesn't feel like him trying to do some reassuring kumbaya. No, no. It feels in the way of a lot of a certain type of artist

who is just like overly sensitive to other people's feelings and empathetic. Which isn't to say selfless, but yes, I think he was a true empath who felt like the collective struggles very deeply. Isn't there that, like, I don't know, there's some meme, the side by side of Miyazaki and Koun where it's like quotes from them and Miyazaki saying something typically Miyazaki doomy about how like, you know, everything is shit and I hate it all. And then it's like a picture of his work, like a beautiful pestle thing of like animals and streams and stuff.

And then Cohn is like something super humanistic and sweet and empathetic. And it's like the parade or the guy's head coming out of the side of the chairman and exploding into butterflies. It's just like, you know, but that just speaks to the balance, I think, of all of this stuff is that, you know, you get out certain parts of yourself in the stories that you're telling or the things that you're interested in that don't necessarily show up in the quotes that you give to the press. What are movies like aspirational, representational

or both or neither? You know, like what are we trying to do with this medium? Which is obviously a great many different things depending on the person. Yeah. Come by Maximus Game. Yeah, so it comes out. May 25th, 2007, Griffin.

Okay, so Spider-Man 3, Pirates of the Caribbean at World's End and Shrek the Third are all in the top five, correct? Yes. It's just, it's uninteresting, but it's... You got the top three. It was the fucking, that was the month. But, do them in the right order. Okay, so... New this week. Pirates had just come out that weekend. It was the Memorial Day release. Oh my god. Number two is... Would be Shrek the Third. Second weekend. That was second weekend. Number two is second weekend. That was second weekend. Number three is it's fourth weekend. Right, because it came out the first weekend.

Spider-Man 3. Number four is pretty wild though. It's new this week that this film was released somewhat wide. 1600 screens is Bananas. It's an F CinemaScore film. I think it's, we'll cover it on this podcast one day. It's not Bug, is it? It's William Friedkin's Bug.

Yeah. Who, what, what insane person at Lionsgate was like, I think we should put that up against Pirates of the Caribbean 3. A decision making process so twisted, it feels like something out of Tracy Letts' Bug. Like everyone's like, ah, fuck Pirates and Spider-Man and Shrek are all sold out. What's this movie? I'll walk in here. What's go, like, ah, fuck, Pirates and Spider-Man and Shrek are all sold out.

What's this movie? I'll walk in here. What's go, Ashley Judd, love her? How weird could it be? Well, this was a month that broke Hollywood a little bit because the three biggest current franchises of that moment decided to all put their third entries in May and people were like, they're gonna cannibalize each other.

There's no way. Which they didn't. They didn't. but they were all bad I think Pirates 3 is good. I agree with you, but I don't really you know all those movies were Artistically failed we were far and away the least popular entries with the public of their franchises Even though all three made tons and tons of crazy amounts of money didn't cannibalize each other arguably boosted each other but the rest of that month was like Kind of like everyone was too terrified like yeah pirates might bomb next to Shrek

Why would we put something out there so there's like let's go there's you which had been on a shelf for a long time They're like bug we can put out in fucking 1600 screens because no one's trying to counter program against any of these It's good because no one's trying to counter program against any of these. You've seen Bug, Emily? No, I have not. You would dig Bug. It's good. You dig Bug. Bug's cool. I dig Bug? Bug, yeah.

You dig Bug. I mean, speaking of that, another film that's expanding this week from its limited release is another, you know, quasi-indie, you know, from a, you know, small studio. Quasi-indie from a small studio. It's a comedy, dark, very dark comedy. It's a very dark comedy in May of 2007. Also a filmmaker's last film, tragically. Is it Prairie Home Companion?

No. That was a No 6 release. I think that's right. It's a very dark comedy that was a filmmaker's... Very dark is way too strong. It's a dark... Was it a surprising death or was he was... Yes, it was a tragic.

She. She? The director is a woman. Was it a surprising death or was he was up there? It was a tragic, she. She? The director is a woman. A tragic, surprising death. This is her final film. It's a very dark comedy from a somewhat indie distributor that comes out May 2007 and went semi-wide. Do you have an idea?

No, I really, this is- I'm like totally struggling on what this could be. This movie's had a very long tail. There's been an adaptation of it on the stage. Oh, it's Waitress. Adrian Shelley's Waitress. Yeah. Pretty good movie.

But you know, one of those things where at the time people were like, this is neither fish nor fowl. Like, what is this? How strange. And it ended up being quite a big hit. And as you said,, has just really survived. A solid indie hit. And then Wright has had a crazy long tail. Right.

Because she was already, she had already passed by the time it premiered at Sundance. Like, it got bought for a crazy amount of money at Sundance and people went like, are they overpaying because of the narrative and the tragedy? Is this gonna connect with audiences? And then it really really did

Yeah, I made a lot of money for a tiny budget. Yeah, you've also got 28 weeks later. I feel we discussed on this podcast Disturbia. Yeah Hanging out up there That was the cuz Disturbia opened in April and then continued being number one the entire month and the weekend before spider-man 3 comes out Disturbia was number one with like six million because no one wanted to have their film get steamrolled by those. Yeah. Yes. Exactly.

Disturbia did good. Disturbia made mine. Georgia Rule, normal movie. Super normal. Wild Hogs, another normal one. Wild Hogs weirdly rebounding 13 weeks in. And Fracture, which is... I killed my wife. I killed my wifeure, which is, I killed my wife.

I killed my wife prove it, or I killed my wife don't prove it. I can't remember what the tagline is. I recently watched that for legal draft. The poster is just Anthony Hopkins face with I killed my wife in triangle letters. I shot my wife, in fact. I shot my wife.

Normal poster. It's a wild poster. Just imagine that plastered over and over with like the wheat paste. This is what New York City was like in 2007. I shot my wife, I shot my wife. On every street corner. There's another version that has

Gosling's face on it too, you know. And what's it say? He shot his wife. And then right, then, I'm from the Bronx. And then there was this version that was, I shot my wife, prove it. Which is, you're like, huh?

Who was the wife in that? Emmett Davis? That sounds right. I just rewatched it and I couldn't tell you. But let me look it up. I feel like I also watched it for the legal journal. What if it was a fracture and I know killed me poster side by side.

I mean, they were kind of around the same time. That comes out later this summer. Same font, same typeface. So that's the deal with the box office. Obviously, Paprika's opening, you know, unlimited amount of screens. Well below all of that. We have nothing more to say, I think. Well, excuse me.

Except to announce our next mini-series. Thank you. Right? Yes. And of course, we should thank our guests for coming and not making anybody mad. I'm just, I'm worried now. No, you shouldn't be worried. Like, it was a very uncontentious thing.

Oh, Ben. No, no, you shouldn't be worried. Ben is mad. Ben is not mad. Ben is mad because Inside Out is his favorite movie. It certainly is not. Wreck-It Ralph is his favorite movie and that's how you know Ben is mature. And my daughter has seen Wreck-It Ralph is his favorite movie and that's how you know Ben is mature. And my daughter has seen Wreck-It Ralph.

And? Well, she likes it. She calls it Big Grumpy Man. I like that. That's so cute. I love that. Yeah, it's cute. For the record, I like Wreck-It Ralph.

I don't like her watching it. I like Wreck-It Ralph. Wreck-It Ralph's good. I think it's a good movie. I don't like her watching it because it's got too many guns in it. All the sort of hero's duty stuff is a little too... Oh, sure. That's actually true. She kind of just like doesn't care

and wants to get to the candy world. You could actually do a good father-daughter Halloween costume of you as Ralph and her as Vanellope. You have the right size to... It's possible. Yeah, we do. Right now. Right now. Although she's shooting up. Well, that's what I'm saying. It's not gonna last long.

Yep. Uh, what's our next miniseries? Uh, well, actually, you know what? The next thing we're gonna to cover is Furiosa. I made Mad Max Saga. Speaking of Mad Max, Fairy Road. Yeah. I'm excited.

Me too. It looks good. I just saw the trailer in IMAX before Dune 2. Yeah, I'm stoked. Yeah. I went from being like, yeah, I'll see that to like, okay, yeah. The new trailer is really good. I want to say this too.

I think, and I hope this bears out in the final product delivering, I think it is good that there's a little bit of, I don't know, arms crossed, show me what you got, energy for this movie. Sure. Because that's what there was last time. Rather than just like... The expectations. If we were going into this with fucking Phantom Menace expectations, I'd be more worried. Yes. I'm just worried that Hemsworth is too subtle.

That's my fear, that he's not dialing it up. To be clear, I'm so excited to see him in that movie with a fucking handlebar mustache going like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That sounds great to me. Yeah, the whole thing looks great. I just wanna see everybody be super Australian. Tom Brooks in it, yeah.

Yeah. Fucking, yeah. Oh, Tom Brooks in it? It's gonna be great. I'm very excited for it. We'll be covering that next week and in two weeks We began our next mini series a long overdue series a long promise series a long threatened series Someone who kept losing in March Madness and we finally decided to make it happen. We're a couple breast men over here Yeah, David and I call me me Schwimmer, call him Cooper.

Cause we're covering Martin Breast. Wow, a reference for five people. We will be covering the short and, you know, his two, oh, short career. Dramatic filmography of Martin Breast. A real classic blank check, rise and fall kind of career. Going in style, which I've never seen. That's our first, obviously, episode.

And then Beverly Hills Cop, Midnight Run, Santa, the Woman, Meet Joe Black, G-E-E-E. Goodbye! Ta-ta! His career ended on the type of movie we now use as a verb. Yeah. It's like the Ishtar thing of like,

you use that as shorthand for someone sort of imploding and much like Elaine May, he is still alive and just has not made a film now in 20 years. It's still around, it's still constantly spreading. We'd love for him to come back, but in the meantime, we're excited to talk about those movies. Absolutely. So that's what we're doing next on this show. But it's been fun talking about this guy. And talking about this girl. Oh, hi. Woman.

All right. Emily. You're a girl and yet a woman. And yet. Shogun. Shogun. I think by the time this is out, we will have had our last... Shogun's doing really badly, but I think this will bump it

to some folks, right? Yeah, that show's definitely in need of help. Nobody's seen it, but hopefully, you know, just give it a little whirl on Hulu.org. Yeah, Hulu's an org. Yeah, I co-wrote the finale episode with the amazing Megan Wong, and I also wrote the fourth episode. Which was good. TV takes so long. That show was the reason you moved to LA in the first place, right?

Yeah, that's the reason I moved to LA in 2019. I remember you telling me summer 2019, like I'm moving to LA. So just to put this in perspective, Emily comes on to do the Fury Road episode, coming back to New York for the first time since you'd moved to LA. After we wrapped The Room. I think I was actually still writing the finale

when I was in New York then. I believe that it is correct. Yeah, I was still working, but just not in The Room. So that's how much time it took to make that dang show. So hopefully people watch it. Show took to make that dang show. So hopefully people watch it. Shogun finale is about to air and Furiosa is about to come. That's so crazy.

That is funny. That's crazy. Oh my God. That's the passage of five years. That guy just knocks shit together. He really does. Cause even at that episode we were like, and he's saying he's gonna make another one

But that's not gonna happen. It takes him forever, right? Yeah When was when was thousand years of civil 3000 years 22, right? That was Ben living room era It's all I remember fucking movie is so good. Yeah, so good. You know what that guy does make good movies Yes, he does. He do he do make good movie and so did Martin Bress for a short time before he started making bad But they're all gonna be really fun to talk about they're all interesting. Yes Made good movies Satoshi Kohn. Yeah, I mean that's that's a perfect career. Good night captain Glad we finally did him on this show and I hope hopefully celebrated him appropriately I have to say as of airing right now I finally did him on this show, and I hopefully celebrated him appropriately.

I have to say, as of airing right now, you guys haven't aired any, or as of recording right now, you guys haven't aired any of the episodes, but everybody I know that I've mentioned that I'm doing this, everybody is stoked for this. So I'm so glad you guys did it too. People saw your skeets and were excited at extrapolating that we were finally covering him

and you were coming back. And I'm back, baby. I said it the wrong way. That you were coming back and we were covering him. So you'll be back, of course. Yes. I'll get my first class ticket back to New York on Blink Check Airlines. As is promised. And... Can we announce this on air? That you are formally not resigning from your position as past and future guest of the show.

What? What's this bit? You saying, you're saying you'll be back, of course, feels like it's like countering a narrative that Emily is retiring from Blank Check. Probably is a narrative. There's so many narratives out there. Yeah, we got to, we got to fight all the narratives. If there's one thing I've learned from Paprika and the films of Satoshi Kon, we must fight

all narratives. We must fight all narratives. Thank you for being here, Emily. Thank you for having me. Great to be back in the seat. The old seat. And thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe.

Thank you to Marie Barty for co-producing this show, AJ McKee and Alex Barron for editing. I'm just- Yeah, why are you staring at me? I've decided this time I'm doing the wrap-up, making unbroken eye contact with Ben. AJ McKee and also our production coordinator, Pat Reynolds, Joe Bowen for our artwork.

Thank you very much, Liam McCarmy, the great American novel. Ben is getting uncomfortable. He's now breaking the eye contact. He's looking the other way. I've adjusted my seat and my mic arm, so I'm now just fully locked in on him. This is what the internet has done to our brains.

He can't even maintain eye contact with his friend. Body thanks to JJ Birch for our research. Reminder that once again, you are fired for that what is he smoking joke. Tune in next week for Furiosa a Mad Max Saga with no dossier apparently He's fired. He's fired. Yeah, and also he hasn't seen it yet. None of us have seen it yet with talking about the future You can go to blank check pod com for links to some real nerdy shit including our patreon blank check special features

Where I think we're just wrapping up the turtles now, and we'll be soon transitioning into the March Madness winner tabletop games, but also a Paranoia Agent, much discussed on this episode, will be happening over there on Patreon. We actually kind of have, we're like in the center of turtle land. Oh, great. Turtle.

We're raising shell. Yeah. And as always, I want to remind everyone that we specifically told you all that you are not allowed to get mad.