Blank Check with Griffin & David - Philadelphia with Richard Lawson

Episode Date: January 19, 2020

Writer Richard Lawson joins the boys to talk about this WEIRD but poignant film that is actually streaming on Netflix. Why didn't they just make Tom Hanks whole family hate him? And who better to sing about the streets of Philadelphia than Bruce Springsteen? Plus a >>special<< merch spotlight. 

Hello, Blankies. This is downtown Griffey Nooms with a little emergency pre-episode announcement. So, March 23rd, 2020 is going to mark the fifth anniversary of Blank Check with Griffin and David. Or technically the fifth anniversary of Griffin and David present the Phantom Podcast, but tomato, tomato. The point is, in order to commemorate this colossal event, because it is very tough to make the five, we're going to be not only doing a special fifth anniversary checktacular episode on our main feed, but we're also going to be doing some live shows. Fuck it. We're doing it live, folks. Okay? March 23rd, Monday, Bell House Theater, Brooklyn, 7lyn 7 p.m show sold out it already sold out

i apologize we put it up for pre-sale on patreon and crazy enough it sold out very shortly so we're adding a second show 10 p.m that same night march 23rd tickets for that are going to go on sale Monday, January 20th, this Monday at noon, 12 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. So we're announcing this very clearly so that the general public, the people who are not Patreon subscribers, have a good shot at getting those tickets because we feel bad that you were left out in the cold on the first one. tickets because we feel bad that you were left out in the cold on the first one. That having been said, if you want to come to the early show, you can't make the late show, maybe hop on the blank check Reddit, try to come up with some sort of ticket swap with a checkmate who bought tickets for the earlier. I will also say two shows are going to be entirely different. They're going to have different subjects. So if you're a completist, you might want to come to both. You might want to complete the set. That's all I'm going to say.

Thank you for listening. And now please listen to this very normal episode of Blank Check with Griffin and David. Blank Check with Griffin and David. Blank Check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check. What do you love about the podcast, Griffin? Many things.

What I love most about the podcast, it's that every now and again, not often, but occasionally, you get to be a part of justice being done. And that is really quite a thrill when it happens. Okay, let's do that quote. It's good, right? That's it. Because I'll tell you, the rest of these quotes are a little rocky. Right, right, right. Not easy to turn into jokes.

No. The key words that you would replace with podcast are words that should not be removed. What about the joke that's told? What do you call a thousand podcasters at the bottom of the ocean? Good start. Chained together at the bottom of the ocean.

That's a good start. Do you know the tagline for this movie? It's a good long one. It's a double tagline. It would split into two little... No one would take on his case until one man was willing to take on the system. That is so generic.

It's very 90s. There could be 100 people in a room and 99 people say they won't take the case. That was the European tagline for the film. When Lady Gaga was working in marketing. One person was Bradley Cooper. That's not said in the movie. It's not like he's like, I tried 99 people.

He tried seven. He tried, I think nine. Oh, he says nine. Yeah, well, it's only one nine away. I guess so. The poster as well might as well be like the poster for the Pelican Brief. Totally. It could be the poster for any Grisham thriller.

High contrast, black and white, and then there's a big gavel. Just so you're like, oh, uh-oh, we're going to court. Tom Hanks looks 0% sick. He looks like Tom Hanks in a suit. Right, because even at the beginning of this movie, I forgot how much he is like... He's already... He's emaciated. They're clearly putting a lot of makeup on him to show that he's covering up his lesions.

From the first frame of this film, Tom Hanks does not look like America's funny man, Tom Hanks. When I was a kid, my parents rented this movie on VHS, right? And they were like, it's a sequel to Toy Story. No, I think I just saw the cover and I was like, what's this movie? And they were like, um, and I'm like, oh, it's about Philadelphia. Like, I mean, I just, there's just nothing on that cover that you'd be like, well, I clearly understand. You look at the poster and you're like, Philadelphia. I mean, there's just nothing on that cover that you'd be like, well, I clearly understand the plot of this. You look at the poster and you're like- It's called Philadelphia.

Right. You're like, this must be a true story about something about the city of Philadelphia. Right. Exactly. This must be about city planning or like- Yeah. Some miscarriage of justice in Philadelphia. Right.

Right. Specific. Which is about, sort of. Yeah. It's not very Philadelphia-centric. I feel like stand-ups have been making this joke for like two decades now, but it does feel a little bit like if they made a film about someone dying of cancer and called it New York City.

Right. Like, I understand the brotherly love thing, but it comes up once in the movie. It's not like the movie is very much about it being in Philadelphia. It's, I guess, just that idea of Philadelphia as the city with that motto. Like if it was about a character that throws batteries.

Well, that would be called Philadelphia. And that would be appropriate. Okay, Ben has decided that this episode is going to be him ragging on Philadelphia as the classic New Jersey-Philadelphia rivalry. I honestly didn't see it coming. I forgot. I forgot. Of course he hates Philadelphia.

Philly stinks. Okay. Ben, do you want a moment here to soapbox, or do you want to just pepper it throughout the next four and a half hours? I'm going to pep. Okay. Well, this is a podcast called Blank Check. Yes.

With Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. David. Thanks for introducing yourself. It's a podcast called- I said David. I know. I said it with a little more pep.

I am David. Bang, bang, bang it with a little more pep. I am David. Bang, bang, bang. Oh, bang of the gavel. It's a podcast about filmographies. Directors have massive success early on in their career and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear.

Sometimes they bounce. Baby. And this is a new series on the film of Jonathan Demme. And this is arguably his first big blank check. Yeah. This is a huge cash in. Not only is it that, it deposits. It's a hit.

That's the argument our friend Emily Vanderwerf guessed last week made, which is like when people were saying like, I don't know if Jonathan Demme qualifies for this. It's like that is one of the biggest blank check movies of all time. And the fact that it cleared in the way that it did is kind of insane. $200 million worldwide. Yeah. I mean, I just think that's

something people, one of the many things people probably don't remember about this movie. They probably think like, oh, whatever. It did fine and won an Oscar. It was a big commercial success. It was one of the top ten films of the year, basically. It did fine and won an Oscar. It was a big commercial success. It was one of the top ten films of the year basically. It was number one two weeks in a row. Yeah.

Yeah. And it also is the movie that elevates Tom Hanks from being like beloved leading man to like America's greatest movie star. Like this is the film that transforms him. It made him the voice of like important stuff. Totally. It did. And it's interesting that it did when you think about it

and at the same time we've all seen his Oscar speech for this film I'm sure we'll discuss it again the only he won best act I was going to say

is this the only film in this miniseries that inspired a Kevin Kline comedy I mean it's just insane that is just an insane fact but I rewatched it last night after watching the movie just to remind myself

because everyone remembers the end where he's like, there are too many angels in heaven. But the whole speech sounds like a fucking presidential campaign. And you're like, is he, I mean, obviously he memorized this or something, he's not just doing this off the dome, but like, he ends with saying, God bless

America. But he had one of those campaign years where he watched his Golden Globe speech is great and also is entirely different. Zero overlap. He donates it. Donates it. He dedicates it to a bunch of specific actors.

There's this crazy stat that I think Demi cast over 50 actors in the film who actually had AIDS. And by the time the movie came out, 40 of them had died. Wow. And so Hanks' Golden Globes speech was him dedicating the memory to a bunch of specific actors in this movie. What's his name? Ron Veitner?

Veitner? Who's the actor who plays the one sort of member of the law firm who vouches for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He died. He was, died of AIDS. Right.

I think shortly after this movie came out and it's one of the most horrifying stories I've ever read, which is he had a massive AIDS-related heart attack while on a plane with his partner and they were three hours away from landing. And his partner was like, I had never seen a dead body before and I suddenly had they were three hours away from landing. And his partner was like, I had never seen a dead body before

and I suddenly had to spend three hours sitting next to my dead partner. Oh my God. Waiting. All right. Isn't that the worst? Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Dr. Sleep.

Oh boy. Yeah. No. But yes, it's kind of crazy. This movie was such a big hit. Right. After this, Hanks has a run for over a decade where he does 11 straight $100 million grocers. Yeah.

I mean, including like Forrest Gump being the number one film of its year, Toy Story being the number one film of its year, Saint Prevot Ryan being the number one film of its year. Like it was just like he was the guy. He was constantly getting Oscar nominations or wins. He wins back to back. It's when he became America's dad. Yeah. He had been like America's like fun cousin or older brother.

And then he was like, no, no, no. And I think those speeches for Philadelphia kind of helped solidify that. That's the thing. It was like he's ready for this moment. He's ready to take on the responsibility of being like the president of Hollywood. Exactly. It sounds like he's running a campaign. And I think that there's something about his character in this being from Pennsylvania

and his character from Saving Private Ryan being from Pennsylvania because it kind of locates him in like – it's not quite middle America, but it's sort of homey. You're doing another hit. And it's still sort of liberal. Yeah. I mean, I did Saving Private Ryan, right? That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. Right, because there is something and it's my second Shyamalan movie this is right all movies set in Philadelphia are directed by him yes he wrote Streets of Philadelphia it was about the streets of Philadelphia

that's what the song is about but it was very confusing when I was a kid because I would say I like that Bruce Springsteen song Philadelphia and people would be like no that's not actuallyen song Philadelphia. No, that's not actually the song Philadelphia is the Neil Young song. That's true. Ben, you're a New Jerseyan. Born and bred.

Jersey devil. Now, of course, Bruce Springsteen also a New Jerseyan. How do you feel about the fact that he won an Oscar and one of his better known songs is about Philadelphia? His only Oscar. I don't like it. Oh.

I remember at the time being aware that people were kind of like, yeah, this is sort of outside his comfort zone. Philadelphia. He crossed state lines.

Right. His fucking turncoat. Is that why you quit the E Street Band, Ben? Yes. Boss, I love you. I just can't,

I can't go in the tunnel with love with you. And then you handed your do-rag to Steve Van Sant. Would you be surprised at all if we opened up the booklet of an E Street Band CD and just saw that Ben was like the triangle player? Well, you're the girl he invites up on stage. Courtney Cox, yes. Ben is Courtney Cox. Also, look, we do know Bruce Springsteen loves redheads.

It's true. Ben is his type I am definitely his type You know also there's this famous song That Bruce I found out later Covered called Jersey Girl That was a Tom Waits song So again another Kind of sad moment for me

Right that he didn't originate that No it's just fine I mean Atlantic City that's about Jersey That's a Bruce song kind of sad moment for me. Right, that he didn't originate that. Yeah. No, it's just fine. I mean, Atlantic City, that's about Jersey. That's a Bruce song. That's a good one. I'm trying to think of like very Jersey-specific Bruce songs.

Obviously, a lot of his running to the turnpike. He wrote the original score for Jersey Girl. Yes. He did. Yes, he did.

And he also shot that film and edited it. He was in the D.K. Yeah. He starred in it. He starred in it, right. Played the Jersey girl. Well, he has a song called Taylor Ham, Egg and Cheese, Off of Exit, 29 on the Parkway

South. He has this song called, like, I love to watch the Sopranos and it's not clear whether or not I understand that the characters are unsympathetic. That's a good song. About being from New Jersey. Depiction does not equal endorsement. You know who's very good in Jersey Girl? Sir William Smith.

Sir William Smith. Will Smith. He's a small role, correct? As himself, and he's really fucking good. When's he bad? But it's like one of his better... No, no, no. It might be true, but when's he bad?

Winter's Tale. Right? Are there things where he's bad? There are, bad? Winter's Tale. Right? Like, are there things where he's bad? There are, right? Winter's Tale is arguably the only one. Because even things that are bad, I think he's very committed in. He's usually committed. I'm trying to think.

Like, what's a bad Will Smith? Like, I don't think he's bad in Suicide Squad. No, he's good in Suicide Squad. I just think, right. Or whatever. Right, but he's, like, doing his work. He's fine in Wild Wild West, even though that movie's bad. Yes, although that is a little bit him like

bringing out the old bag of tricks and you're like come on man that's pretty electric Wild Wild West might be the closest to where I'm like you're not doing much for me here buddy I don't really like him in After Earth he's not yeah you're right

he's bad in that movie he's all wrong I're right he's bad in that movie he's bad cause he's doing he's all wrong I'm working against all of his yeah like um he's doing that weird accent

that's a weird movie all his charisma is being sucked out of him sort of intentionally he's passing it on to his son yeah trying he is the genie though he was the genie

yeah well he is current still yeah you're right he actually retains those powers and by the time this episode comes out

he probably will have one best Supporting Actor, right? At the Oscars? You never know. On the record. Right? I think Guy Ritchie's win really is going to be a win for that whole film. Oh, totally. He'll just be like, here, right, he's the Alfonso Cuarón.

I tried to watch Aladdin on a plane not too long ago, and I had to turn it off. And I have a really, like, plane movie tolerance. Like and I had to turn it off. I have a really plain movie tolerance. I watched it yesterday. I watched that whole thing. You don't think that movie made sense? Yesterday? You don't think that movie made sense? Yesterday?

That movie is airtight logic. Just like, try to pull a string. You can't. I'm going to try and untickle it. I can't do it. Everything makes sense. Perfect. You know, like that movie takes place in alternate reality where the second someone gets dumped,

someone else steps forward and goes, actually, I've always had a crush on you. You will not be single for longer than a minute. Don't worry. Yeah, that's perfect. Oh, God. But yeah, I couldn't finish Aladdin. That's so boring. Yeah, that's my problem with all those Disney remakes that are very similar to the...

It's like, I'm just like, yeah, I've seen this movie and somehow it's longer and slower this time. It's just sort of like, what do you got for me? I still haven't seen Lion King. Well, that one's unwatchable. At least Aladdin, you're like, hey, look, it's Will Smith, right? Right. I want to bring up something that's been bugging me for a couple months now. Here we go.

When we did our Lion King episode, I argued, not argued, I stated the fact that the movie was half an hour longer. And you said, no, it's not because of credits. Oh, sure. Right, right, right. But that argument makes no sense because both of them have credits. Sure, but I think the Disney credits are very short, aren't they? I don't think so. Let's see.

118 for The Lion King. Uh-huh. Jon Favreau's The Lion King. That is so many tech people. It's essentially an animated film. I think they both have very long credits. All right, maybe. Your argument was the animated film.

I watched that stupid Favreau movie. If it's a half hour long, I don't know what he added. There's like two things that suck, but that's it. It wasn't half an hour worth. There were some pauses probably. Contemplative Chekhovian. There is that scene where Zazu just pauses for 20 minutes. And you hear a gunshot in the distance.

It's very Chekhov. Yeah. A violin string snapping. Everyone looks up. Our guest today is Richard Lawson. Oh, hello. Richard Manchin from Vandy Fair and Little Gold Man. Stop making podcasts.

We're talking about Philadelphia. Yep. A movie where in my mind. So the first time I saw this movie was probably seven or eight years ago when it was on Netflix

streaming. And I remember not even considering. Back in the days when every movie was on Netflix. Yes. Right.

Those the golden days. Right. When Netflix was a public. I mean it is streaming on Netflix now. That's how I watched it. But it is actually currently streaming. But it is one of four movies on Netflix. It won't be when this airs. Right. Right. Right golden days. When Netflix was a public product. I mean, it is streaming on Netflix now. That's how I watched it. It is actually currently streaming.

But it is one of four movies on Netflix. It won't be when this airs. Right, right, right. And it's classified under vintage movies, classic movies, black and white movies, because of the poster. Yeah. So you'd never seen it before,

and you saw it like eight years ago on Netflix. I remember flipping through the channels when I was in college I think the communal TV in the lounge or the dorms or whatever

and seeing the aria scene and being like this is really weird why didn't anyone tell me that Philadelphia is this weird because I bought into I feel like

the cultural reputation of this movie got immediately which is this is the ultimate austere, issues-driven Oscar. And it's sanded down and not risky.

For a long time, it was the stand-in representative of that kind of movie. Which is insane that that's this movie's reputation because this is the outline. This is what all of them should be. If Oscar films were like this, Oscar films wouldn't have a bad reputation. He's a better filmmaker than almost anyone, which is part of what he's bringing to the

table. Really watching this whole filmography, you're kind of like. This is an exceptional film. You can't argue that he had like the best body of work ever because. No. It's, you know, he's got stinkers and whatever. But it is like, he's kind of one of the best filmmakers who ever lived. I mean, you can just make a conversation.

What I, what I like about it is that when a movie that could just be pretty straightforward and still have an emotional impact and maybe an awards impact, he's like, no, I'm going to actually like make a movie that's like artful. But I think part of the reason that its reputation has been sort of muddied

is that at the time, and since certainly like Larry Kramer wrote an op-ed about how much he hated the movie and how it wasn't the movie and I see those criticisms, I do I think in the lens of hindsight the movie looks better maybe than it did in the moment but I think that

coupled with just the regular Hollywood narrative about like a feel-good Oscar movie, not feel-good but you know, issue movie, Oscar movie that also then was sort of deemed like a bad gay movie Oscar movie, not feel-good, but you know, issue movie, Oscar movie, that also then was sort of deemed like a bad gay movie, like the wrong gay movie. It got that.

And then it kind of just got buried by this kind of legacy and then re-watching it for this podcast, I was like, holy shit, this is actually

like a beautiful movie. It's a beautiful movie. It's a daring movie in a lot of ways. Not so much in what we're talking about, what Larry Kramer is talking about so much,

but like just in like, you wouldn't make a movie this way anymore no absolutely not um which is probably part of our like reverence of it from afar and you're right that like in 1993 that's a pressure cooker time aids is very much like ongoing and not at remotely solved and the government is barely like acknowledging it's still right, it's still this sort of, like... Angels in America's on Broadway in 93. Yeah, it's still this, like, people are, like, shaking the gates, being like,

what are you going to do about this? And so this movie maybe feels a little tepid. Yeah. And it gets tagged with the kiss thing. And I feel like it's never gotten over that. There is the brief kiss, the sort of chaste hospital kiss, but, like, you know,

that his relationship with Antonio Banderas is, you know, pretty on screen, pretty chaste. Yeah, and there's this Janet Maslin review where she's like his, his the Antonio Banderas boyfriend character is God, I want to find her exact

line because I find it really dismissive and shitty. But she essentially says, like, it would be insulting to even call it a sketch of a character. And to which I go like, explain to me how the depiction of that character is any

different than the depiction of Denzel's wife in the movie. Right. He's a supporting character. I mean, I don't know. Right, like I feel like those relationships are given equal amount of weight in this film. The only difference may be being that like, you know, there's a- Less kissing. Right.

But it's not like the Denzel wife relationship is really hot and heavy. No. Yeah. I mean, they just had a baby. Because, yeah, the core relationship is obviously him and Denzel. Yeah. And like the movie is like a roadmap toward empathy. And that's kind of how it functioned in like popular culture back then.

And so I'm willing to forgive if some spouse characters are like not quite fully drawn, you know, because like that's not what the movie is about. I'm like that's like, you know, a larger issue with spouse characters in films like this usually being half written. But wait, there was something, I think it got tagged with that. It got tagged with what you're talking about. It didn't get a Best Picture number. Which is kind of crazy. And didn't get Best Director. Right, and so maybe that

hurt it a little bit that like, if you look at it on paper, you're like, well that's the Tom Hanks Oscar movie, but like that's what that was. And I think also it just got overshadowed by Forrest Gump the next year, where everyone was like the definitive Tom Hanks movie of the early 90s was Forrest Gump. And that movie did a lot for, I feel like

for gay relations in America. Forrest Gump? Yeah. Oh yeah. That was the landmark of the show. I mean, I'm like, there's a lot of gay categorization. I'm a Sally Field Queen. When I watch Forrest Gump, the whole time I just yell

over and over again nothing weird about this movie no problem I just keep yelling it I learned a bunch about history from that movie yeah totally

none of you folks listen to Edward Norton Lock the Gate right I didn't listen to that although I certainly have read like 45 Edward Norton interviews

I should have asked to interview him everyone got to interview him his movie blew I just didn't want to be like it's always weird where you're like do they know that I think their movie's a big old doodoo? I was interviewing Tracy Letts for our podcast Little Gold Men at Work

that episode will have aired long after before this goes on air but anyway and he started the interview I asked him a first question he's like wait let's back up here because you didn't like the movie did you? It was for Ford vs Ferrari and he started the interview. I asked him a first question. He's like, well, wait, let's back up here because you didn't like the movie, did you? It was for Ford vs Ferrari. And I was like,

huh? I guess I had tweeted something that I fell asleep. You said that it made you go zzzz. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh no,

it's just because it was late at night and whatever. But I guess his publicist had read that to him and then booked this interview and I was like, what's going on? Why are you doing that?

That's like the conference call and getting someone to say something embarrassing about the other person. Edward Norton on his WTF weirdly goes to bat for Forrest Gump, like very emphatically. And he was like, but he's like, I understand the reputation that movie has. I think that movie is very canny and has a lot more bite than people give it credit for being, which I just thought was such a bizarre. I would not expect Edward

Norton to be like... Why not? He's like the king of like, let me stick up for the shit people don't like right now. I don't know, but that's like a weird movie for him to be... It's funny. But I've heard that take, where it's like, oh, come on. Forrest Gump is a satire. Right, sly.

Being there is a satire. Forrest Gump is kind of like watered down being there with more sort of boomer, you know, sort of nostalgia. I don't think Forrest Gump is biting at all. And that is a movie that deals with AIDS in a way that is really uncomfortable. That's the joke. No, I know. I'm just going to state it directly. AIDS as punishment for having sex

which this movie is trying to like counter that argument with every fiber of its being this movie has a very like sort of clearly kind of inserted scene I'm not saying inserted in a bad way but like clearly importantly a highlighted scene where the woman who has the transfusion is like

I don't see myself as any different than this person you know like, like, where, like, they're trying to, like, sort of maybe, like, remove some of those stereotypes.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it, you know, it cops to the fact that Andrew, you know, he had sex with a guy

in a movie theater, like, he was at a porn theater. Like, it doesn't desexualize him because that obviously is a part of the narrative in a way,

in a big way. But yeah, I mean, it's not shaming in any way the way that Forrest Gump certainly is. Jenna Maslin's line was, Andrew's domestic relationship with Miguel is presented so sketchily that it barely seems

real. I don't buy that either. I don't feel that watching the movie. I don't either. I think both of them are so good. I think one of the things he's trying to do is not because he is skittish about sowing, like, you know, sexual intimacy between gay people on screen. But because so often gay people in movies were demonized or sexualized to show a sort of, like, emotional intimacy, I think was more of a priority for him. And I think that really comes across.

Like, I think they speak to each other with the intimacy of two people who know each other that well for that long or that deeply in love with each other. Hanks talked about, like, you know, there were some scenes that they didn't include. Like, there's a scene of them in bed together that's like a deleted scene.

It's like them just talking in bed. Right, where there was maybe a little more physical intimacy that maybe the studio, who's the studio again? It's Columbia. TriStar, right, yeah. Bulked out. Yeah, you know, but yes, obviously, as context, we should note, right, like, part of Demi's reason for making this movie was the tremendous guilt he felt about the Silence of the Lambs.

Well, so I did some more research. It's a two-step thing. Okay. In 1988, his friend gets diagnosed with AIDS. Sure. In 1988, his friend gets diagnosed with AIDS. He calls up Ron Nysander. I always get his name wrong. Nyswanner, who had done much of the work on Swing Shift, uncredited, for what he had tried to shoot. That shooting script was mostly Ron's. And he calls him up and goes, like, my friend just got diagnosed with AIDS.

This is the first time it's become, like, a personal thing for me. I am so overwhelmed by this. I feel like I need to make a movie about it. Like this is the only way I know how to process this and I feel like we need to do this culturally. Like someone needs to make the movie showing people with AIDS as human beings.

And not long time companion and not and the band played on where it's sort of very. It's more procedural sort of. And it's. Historical accounting. Right and the band played on where it's sort of very— That's more procedural sort of historical counting. Right, and the story is just the illness. I think they want to find a way to make a film that starred someone who was HIV positive that wasn't solely about them dying. It's in the comfortable packaging of a courtroom drama,

which is a very familiar trope for people. In the 90s was like the hottest movie around courtroom drama, which is a very familiar trope for people. And so it's a good— In the 90s was like the hottest movie around, right? Well, this is the crazy thing. So they commit—in the 80s, they're like, we're going to do this. And then they talk it up, and they're like, this is what would really actually change the culture is like if we made a big studio film with movie stars. And that was their like design. But they're designing this before Silence of the Lambs, where the idea of getting that made seemed probably

impossible. But they work on the script for years and years and years, at the starting point of, we want to make up a story that can center around a HIV-positive protagonist, and can sort of show these people in

a greater light, and you know, remove a lot of the stigma. The original idea was they were going to do something closer to Dallas Buyers Club, weirdly. They said their original idea was more of a thriller heist movie that was about getting medicine across the border. They went through a thousand different genres. They went through a thousand different characters, different situations. And then they finally landed on the courtroom drama because they were like, that is the thing that gives him agency

and keeps him invested in the story even while he's dying because we don't want to do a deathbed movie. We don't want to do a movie that's him just going through treatment and getting worse and worse and worse and worse. We want there to be some sort of victory that can still be achieved. Sure. It is also based on a real person. It was loosely based on a couple real people.

And one of the families got upset because they thought that they had sort of mined their dead sons. Well, they didn't get money for it, so they sued and they got money for it. But I also think it is to this movie's advantage that it is not that concerned with being based on a true story.

It's very consciously not advertising itself as that. But I based on a true story. It's very consciously not advertising itself as that. They saw a case that gave them a precedent for this would be a good structure for this movie. And it sets up the world of Glass and Unbreakable, I think, really well. Totally. Just in subtle

ways, but crucial ones. Do you know what he calls that now? I do, but I've forgotten, so you're going to have to remind me. It's like the East Rail 1717 trilogy. I'm getting the number wrong. It's the name of the train crash. You're correct. But that's his version of like Three Cornettos is like all

three movies are about this train crash. The East Rail 177 trilogy which is weird because you could just call it the Unbreakable trilogy and that's fine. You know what I mean? Yeah, look, you can buy a box set now with a labeled East Rail 177.

Maybe you want to. You can take the train. All aboard. Don't take the train. No, it's going to crash. Mr. Glass has been sabotaging it. Anyway, you're right. Mr. Glass obviously is in the film. We see him. He orchestrates the entire thing he just has a 20 minute monologue

about comic books in the middle of the movie and it's very subtle and nuanced I love that fucking movie sure but yes obviously Sansa Lambs

gives him the juice to make whatever the fuck he wants next and it is you know to his credit that also now burdened with

this sort of sense of – He felt bad. Yeah, I was trying to – He'd been picketed like for that movie, you know, by LGBT activists. It's not shame or embarrassment, but I think he genuinely was such an empathetic guy and tried so hard to do right. And it's talked a lot about how much he believed in the importance of what you put on screen, how much that can change dialogue, you know, and perceptions of things and how we have a responsibility

to not put the wrong sort of depictions on screen and things like that. I think that really ate at him. And so whereas this had already been a script that he was working on for a couple years, this just became the thing that he put all of his juice behind. Everything Griffin just said is not true.

What happened was Bruce Springsteen wrote a song about the streets of Philadelphia. He walked up and down. His bus broke down on the way to New York City. And he was like, what the hell? And then he called Demi and was like, I was just on the streets of Philadelphia. No, he said, I was just on the streets.

The streets of Philadelphia. And Demi went, no, no, no, no, no. Jimmy? Demi. I said Demi no, no, no, no, no. Jimmy? Demi. I said Demi. You said Jimmy. I said Demi. You said Jimmy.

Jimmy Demi. I'm trying to say Demi. Okay. I love how this film opens with a very long credit sequence. You don't get enough of those anymore anyway. It's a thing we've talked about in other demis too I love that he credits

every single actor with a line well the actor it becomes a brag where like Anna Deavere Smith is like 26th right where he's just like

no you won't I got more I got so many character actors in this thing Karen Finley's in that movie she plays one of the doctors Ann Dowd Chandra Wilson

young Ann Dowd Chandra Wilson playing a character named Chandra and then what is what are the credits playing over? Joanna was just like, man, you never see credits like this anymore. It's just like, well, it's Philadelphia, right? It's the footage of the streets of Philadelphia. And the credits are like pre-common

by your name, like handwriting font. I love the handwriting font. Reminded me, most of all, of Beverly Hills Cop, one of my favorite opening credits. Sure. Where it's just the streets of Detroit. Yeah. And again, just like, give me a little set the scene. Warm me up. The one that it reminds me of is Dog Day Afternoon.

That's another one. Right. Any of those where it's just like, take the cast iron out, put it on the oven, turn on the flames, just warm it up. Yeah. You're warming me up to being in Philadelphia. You know, Philadelphia is a people, not a place. And that's what Demi's trying to explain.

It doesn't matter if their ship crashes out of the sky and Philadelphia has to relocate. That's why at the end of the movie everyone gets on a spaceship. The border of New Jersey. Yeah. Right. This isn't one of these movies with the sort of like pompous self-seriousness of like, look at us. We're making the definitive plan. It doesn't indicate while also still feeling like, I mean, maybe it's just hindsight, but like of like 26 years.

But like it feels like it's aware of its solemn duty. Yes. And yet doesn't get caught up in that. It doesn't feel too self-important. When you read like a nice one or talking about Demi Taki before he passed, they it was such a dangerous line. They were sort of telling because they were like, we want to make a big Hollywood AIDS movie but we want to make an AIDS movie that doesn't feel like it is the AIDS movie. Like it is

the film. Right, because you're always going to be in trouble with that statement. We're going to make the Hollywood AIDS movie. And they both said that they were terrified making this movie because they knew like everything was going to get so picked over as like this is the one that everyone's been waiting for. Yeah. And every element is going to be sort of taken apart for whether or not this is the one that everyone's been waiting for. And every element is going to be sort of taken apart

for whether or not this is the correct representation. And so I think they very smartly tried to really focus in on a story that they could use as like an entry point for the things they want to say and the dialogue they want to open up in the culture and not trying to make a movie about everything. But then the film's reputation has so much become it's about everything. And even like the seriousness of that poster is so different than the handwritten font and the sort of expressionistic qualities of the filmmaking itself and the humor to

the movie. We're just like I just for years was like as like an insane movie dork who in high school was like trying to get through Oscar movies all the time. I was like, I don't ever have to watch Philadelphia, right? I mean that's just like I know what that is. I've seen people parody this type of thing. I know. I see the poster.

I don't want to watch this. And then it was like watching that like three minutes on TV flipping through channels. I was like, oh, no, this is a Jonathan Demme movie. This isn't just him, like, doing that weird watered-down thing that happens to people after they win an Oscar? Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, it's genuinely an artful movie,

and, like, I think it also, it has a humor to it that I think is really great. You know, I just, at Toronto this year, I saw Just Mercy, which is this Destin Daniel Cretton movie about a very serious issue about wrongful imprisonment. And it's well acted. It's an interesting story.

But it's just so like straight forward and plain and just like literal and there's no – it's just so – it's like you can do – you can still make the important message and have it be. Because that's what Short Term 12 does. I feel like we've been talking about this a lot in the podcast. But it is that weird thing where it's like he made his film that deals with serious things, that doesn't feel burdened by the weight of – we're talking about serious films, that has personality, has eccentricities, is funny. And then he's followed up with two films where he feels totally flattened out by, I need to make a serious commercial film. I think the thing he ran into with that movie, that is the thing this movie avoids, is that when you're making a movie about a real person who has done great, undeniable acts, you do not want to fuck with them. And so the movie is very plainly presenting them, and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself. You wish it had more personality.

But it lacks personality. It feels a little bit like, and then this happened, and that, like, you know, in and of itself. You wish it had more personality. But it lacks personality. It feels a little bit like, and then this happened, and you're like, oh, good. And it's like, it was good. Yeah. Let's move to the next thing that happened. You're like, oh, this is good, too.

And the movie's like, mm-hmm. It was good. I agree. And we saw that movie. You probably were at the premiere, right? Yeah. You know, the guy walks out. I'm now blanking on his name.

Michael B. Jordan. He did walk out, and he looked great. I'll give you that. Brian something? Yeah, Brian. I just want to. Brian Stevenson. And, you know, he walks out.

He gets a huge round of applause. And you're like, this is a serious person. This is a man who's worked on death row to, like, you know, bring humanity and save people. I'm like, I would, too, too feel very indebted to this. Representing his personal story. The man whose case inspired this film, they should have paid him up front. Yeah, they should have paid him up front. But I do think it is the smartest strategic move he made in developing this film

to not go, we're going to adapt this court case, but rather go, this gives me an idea for how to structure this film. Because the freedom this movie has by being able to weave characters out of whole cloth. Yeah. Like, I mean, the Denzel character

is the entire key to this movie being as interesting as it is. And he's secretly the lead. He's secretly the lead. Should have been Oscar nominated. Hanks is supporting. It's a fantastic performance. I mean, arguably.

I think nowadays, I think nowadays they would have run Denzel in lead and Hanks in supporting. It's not impossible except for that, of course, Hanks was a big movie star. He's the first build and all that. I think they're both leads. The movie is more.

In my memory, Denzel really dominated the movie. Yeah. And on rewatch, I was like, no, Hanks does, you know, have the first chunk of the movie all to himself. And then has these big scenes sort of interspersed through. So it's not really what I remember. Aside from the fact that obviously all the courtroom scenes are more Denzel showcases. Of course.

And at that point, Hanks is playing a man who struggles to speak. I mean, he's very infirm. And after the first third, you get more of Denzel's home life. Yes. Which is such a Demi thing to like really, to not make it a binary thing about like oh this friendship changed their lives you know

I feel like he is very smart about not making it feel like oh knowing someone with AIDS has cured him of his bigotry right is the end of this movie going to be that he turns out he's not homophobic anymore

and I'm like no no it's not like that he's less it's a movie about the beginning of that he understands that this is a person exactly

and I think that Demi and the production team saw the movie as being the beginning of something like that so it has this meta sort of context but can we

locate Denzel and Tom Hanks where they yes please so he Hanks had just done League of the Round New Year before, right? We can do this. While I'm just getting this filmography straight

as well, what's your story with this movie? When did you see it, Richard? So I saw this movie probably shortly after it came out on video. Like when I was probably 10 or 11 years old. So my uncle, my mom's brother died of AIDS in 1985, along with his partner, all their friends on fire Island and New York.

And, and so AIDS had always sort of loomed very large in, in my like family history, my family lore. And so it felt like this movie that I had to see. And I think, you know, I was young,

but I probably understood something subconsciously about myself that I felt drawn to it. Um, and I, I, I, I have very little memory of seeing it the first time. I remember thinking it was sad, you know?

But now seeing it now, I mean, I can't help but, you know, I think about this going to see Angels of America. I'm going to go see The Inheritance soon. I just think about like what if like Bobby Finger and Dan Daddario and all like all died, you know? Like how fucking surreal that would be. And it just shakes me apart. And even my mom who's not gay

but lived in New York. It was just that. You have all these friends who just suddenly all get sick and die in their 30s. It's that thing people say of we'll never know the loss to culture that AIDS took. The toll it took in terms of all the art we never got to see and all the artists

who never got to develop in the second acts of their careers that never went on. I mean, my parents were in New York in and around, you know,

various art scenes in the 80s and one year, my mom, as like a birthday present for my dad, years before I was born when they were dating,

made this really fucking weird short film where my mom is playing my father and it's like a 10 minute comedy short that's like a day in the life of peter newman my mom's doing this very bizarre impression of my father in male drag sure and uh when it's it's okay it won best picture that year but um one year my mom as a president like digitized it and brought in DVD and like, you know, we watched it when I was in like high school or whatever. Right, right. And I'm watching it and it's like, oh, we're making fun of all the daily parts of his routine. And everyone else in the short are my parents' best friends from that time.

And I was watching it. Yeah, and I was like, who are all of these people? I know none of these people. And 75% of them were, oh, he died of AIDS. She died of AIDS. They all had AIDS. And the other 25% were my father's gambling buddies. I thought it was more right.

It was like half that and then half. Yeah. Well, this guy was your ex-bookie and this guy was your dad. But it was that crazy thing where I think back to it and I'm like, – by the time I was born, my parents seemingly had very few old friends. Right. There was a core group but you could count them probably on one hand. And then I saw most of my parents' friend base develop throughout my lifetime in a city that they had already been living in each for over a decade. And I never really thought about like why don't they have more friends?

Who are they hanging out with before this? It can't just be, like, Susan and Greg. Like, there has to have been more than this. And the answer is that just, like, everyone fucking disappeared. Everyone just died horrifically. But the thing I want to bring up is that after an 80s career that was heavy on comedies,

Hanks was beginning to transition into more serious roles, right? And this was, like, the one Hanks was beginning to transition into more serious roles. Right? Right. And this was like the one that really was like, okay. Big's a turning point because he gets an Oscar nomination. It's a comedy that then

gets taken seriously. After his fun earlier career from like Bos and Buddies and then Splash, Man with an Armature, Money Pit, Big. Joe vs. Volcano.

Joe vs. Volcano's a little later. It got turned huge. But that's your 80s up to the 90s. Volcano is a little later. It got Turn Hooch. But that's your 80s up to the 90s, right? Turn Hooch is like kind of his last dumb comedy, right? Yes. Because it's after Big, but before Philadelphia. It depends on how you classify Joe vs. Volcano, I would say. But yes.

Or The Tourist or The Lady Clippers. Well, sure. Not The Tourist. The Terminal. The Terminal, thank you. Joe vs. Volcano is, it's too esoteric to be considered

a big dumb movie. I mean, it's a John Patrick Shanley movie, right? It's like post-moonstruck. Right. Turner and Hooch is like,

here's the pitch, it's Hanks with a dog, and the movie was greenlit, you know, before they wrote the script. And then Jim Belushi did K-9, directed by Catherine Bickle.

1990. So it's just, it's important to remember that after Big, he had a slightly rocky few years. Well, because then Bonfire's right afterwards.

Well, that's what I'm getting to. He has The Burbs, which is good. Burbs is very good, which we'll hopefully cover someday on this podcast. I think it was a mid-tier hit,

not a big hit. More of a cult hit. It was disappointing when it came out. Exactly. Turner and Hooch, you know, no one really wants

to be in Turner and Hooch. Big hit, embarrassing. That movie, we were like not allowed to watch in my household growing up because all Hooch, you know, no one really wants to be in Turner and Hooch. Big hit, embarrassing. That movie we were like not allowed to watch in my household growing up because all our friends, of course, had seen it. And my mom just thought it looked crass. Yeah. It does look crass. Jovers of the Volcano, which is a pretty famous flop at the time.

Bonfire of the Vanities, which is a notorious flop. Yeah. Like really, even now remember, but really at the time people were like, oh my god. Like, this is a disaster. And like really at the time people were like, oh my God, like this is a disaster. And like one of the first movies in like sort of a vaguely modern media era where people were all in on reading about what a fucking disaster it was. The book became a bestseller, The Devil's Candy. A movie I've seen that, I mean.

The book about. I don't actually hate the film, but I mean, Hanks is almost, is one of the worst things about it. He's terribly cast. That's the other thing. It's not just that the movie is a disaster, but it's also like this is the largest of the film's many problems is Hanks in this role. Him and Griffith are just terrible. They're just terrible. They cast that entire film wrong. I mean, they just cast big stars, but yeah. It's kind of stunning.

Yeah. Then he does. Because that movie almost works better if you flip Hanks and Willis. Well, I think Willis is good in that movie. But whatever. One day maybe we'll do De Palma. It's not impossible. Holy man.

A lot of movie. I claim Snake Eyes. Let's do it. That's a wild movie. That's a wild movie. Snake Eyes kind of fucks. Yes, it does. So then he kind of takes it easy.

And in 92, two years later, his next movie is A League of Their Own, which he is amazing in. But he was not supposed to do that, right? Wasn't it supposed to be someone else? I remember him being a late replacement. I mean, it's very much a supporting role. And at the time, it was like, oh, this is a change of pace for Hanks. He's playing an asshole. He's playing a jerk.

He's playing a drunk. Because even when he was in comedies, he was always playing kind of like the goofy boyish, you know. A hundred percent. I'm trying to see who he replaced. That was a real, he replaced someone. I want to say it was a much older actor who was more obvious fit for that character type. Yeah, I mean the thing about it

is he's not, that's the thing. He was like, I'm too young for this and Penny Marshall is like, you're supposed to be young because you're supposed to be a baseball player who just got washed up. Like you're not supposed to be an old guy. It's hard living. Right. And so he gained all this weight and it doesn't say.

Yeah, it was someone I'm pretty into. It's not like Harrison Ford, but it was like someone like that. And then in 1993, the year Philadelphia comes out, he also is in. Sleepless in Seattle. Which is a fantastic movie. So he and Denzel both had enormous 1993s. Yes, they did. Yeah.

Because there's the Pelican Brief for Denzel in 1993. We'll get to Denzel in a sec. I love Sleepless in Seattle. I have seen it one million times. Sometimes people come to me and they try to say things like, well, I don't like that film, or I have some objections to the plot of that film, or I have a thing to say about it, and I'm like, I don't care. I don't want to hear about it.

I have never seen it. Well, that's weird and stupid. An argument for doing Nora Ephron. Let's do it. And you know who has probably the best scene in the movie? Rita Wilson. Rita Wilson has an incredible scene in that movie. But Rosie O'Donnell has a couple incredible.

There's a lot of great. David Hyde Pierce has one great scene in that movie. You know what my favorite character is, though? The city of New York. It's almost like it's a character in the film. I love Sleepless in Seattle and that really I think is the movie that's like Tom Hanks is

as you're saying he's sort of the People Magazine cover guy you wanna marry in a sweater like this is it this is America's man the sweater's a big part of it and it also is that thing where you're just like who could not like Tom Hanks? Even if he's your favorite, there's nothing. It's weird.

He's specific and weird enough as an actor without having any type of personality quirk that could be off-putting to a group of people. He's Pennsylvania. He's Pennsylvania. He's Pennsylvania. It's like, exactly. He's been around forever. We all agree. That's that. He's been around forever. We all agree. That's that.

And so I think that's partly why he can take a role like this without too much concern about his star image. Certainly it was at the time a quote-unquote risky thing to do. No one at this time wants to be playing a gay character, period, let alone someone who is dying of AIDS. He was interested with the role as a steward of AIDS. He was like interested with the role as like a steward of it. Like it was like, we think that he will be responsible about this.

He's not like an actor. I feel like some of the big stars of the era, like your Bruce Willis, there are more action stars, maybe their agents would be like, no, you can't bow! What are you talking about? He was like comedies and dramas. He's more of a comedy. He's not going to try to be an action guy. He's not even going to try to do like a Nick Cage pivot post-Oscar. No.

That takes another 15 years for him to throw back the hair and become Robert Langdon. Denzel Washington. Yeah. Right? He's a hot young actor. Wins the Oscar in 89. He's already, well, but like before then, you know, he was in Cry Freedom. He got an Oscar nomination.

He was on St. Elsewhere for many years. Yeah. Then, right, Glory, he gets his Oscar. Supporting Oscar. So it's like here's the guy. Right? Yeah.

And then who did he beat that year for the Oscar? I'm just curious. 89 Danny Aiello. Let's get into it. Dan Aykroyd. I think you're right.

Right? Because I'm just thinking A9s do the right thing and drive Miss Daisy. So you have Aykroyd, Aiello, Washington. Are you looking at the list

right now? Mm-hmm. Are the other two in Best Picture nominees? One is like a legend. Maybe his last nomination. Is it Alec Guinness? Okay. Marlon Brando for a dry white season.

Yeah, I knew it was one of those two. And then the other one is an incredible performance from a guy who'll win an Oscar in a couple years. Ben's nodding empathetically. In a comedy drama. Comedy drama. New York. You know who I'm talking about. I know who you're talking about.

I mean, you know the director I'm talking about. Oh, this is, is it Pesci? No, no. Who is it? The other New York guy. We don't talk about him too much anymore. Oh, this is, is it Pesci? No, no. Who is it? I'm not talking about Scorsese. Yeah. The other New York guy. Well, you know, we don't talk about him too much anymore.

Yeah, I know, but now I'm trying to think what performance it is. Such a good performance. Maybe this, arguably this guy's best movie. Really? I would say. Oh, it's Landau and Crimson Misdemeanors? Yeah. Yeah.

An incredible performance. Yeah. I mean, everyone in that movie's good. Yeah, that's an incredible performance. And this was the run of Lando just kept on like he reestablished himself as an older actor

and he kept on getting those nominations what's up with the Ackroyd like I've never seen Driving Miss Daisy he plays her son he's I would

I mean right yes he does he's not bad in the film I think it was more of a sort of like I've never seen that either yeah

I think it was sort of like well you're in this big movie that we love. Right. You've been around, so it's here you go. Here's your nomination. He was so big culturally. Like, it's kind of crazy to think about, like, because those SNL guys hit so fucking huge,

and at that specific moment in 89, Bill Murray was essentially just coming out of his sabbatical. Chevy Chase had already started building a bad reputation, and Belushi had died. And those were the four guys that were like, one of these guys is going to be a major, major movie star. It's kind of one of those classic, like, right,

like, oh, you're the comedian in a serious movie. Like, look at you! And he does, like, a respectable job. Like, he's fine. Like, head Albert Brooks got nominated for Drive. But that's even more of a like, wow, what a stretch, what a range.

I've seen the film. In my memory, he mostly is just sort of like, my God, you're so annoying. And she's like, well, I don't know.

Right, and then Morgan Freeman drives around the South. And then Jessica Tandy folds a pizza in half. I knew it. Knew it. Knew it was going to get to Green Book.

First SNL cast member to get an Oscar nomination. That sounds right. I think there's six in total. I did this trivia once. But it's Murphy, Murray, Ellen Klykorn. I'm sorry. I just love saying her name. Melanie Hutzel.

Victoria Jackson is getting the Thalberg Prize this year. She's the president of VK. Right. Right. No, but the Greenberg thing is kind of worth comparing. Greenberg or Greenbook? Greenbook. Greenbook.

I just stopped being able to speak English. What if in Greenberg, Greta Gerwig had folded a big pizza? Pizza's too big. I'm going to write a letter. Greta Gerwig teaches Ben Stiller how to eat fried chicken. Oh, boy. You have to fold it. Can you pull overflow?

That's my favorite line in Greenberg. I think Greenberg's really good. Greenberg rules. Greenberg's great. Really good movie. I just love Can a Pool Overflow?

And he's like, what? Yes! It's so funny. That's such a good sweater movie. Good sweater. Ben Stiller's sweater collection in that film is so on point.

But then, anyway, I wanted to give you Denzel's early 90s post-Gloric. Okay, yeah. Do we need to talk Green Book? I think we do, but we'll get to it later.

No, no. Close it. We're going to open the book. No, it's closed. We're going to open the book. Close the pizza. Okay, I'm putting it back on the shelf. Although I do have a sketch that's, fuck, I don't even remember.

Tony Lip sees Philadelphia. Of course. I suppose it is probably cancelable. Yeah. What's wrong with that guy? Oh, no, actually, I forgot that Tony Lip is a whoop king about gayness. Oh, yeah, that's fine. I see it at the nightclubs all the time.

He's like, hey, what are you going to do? Go to the Y. Fuck a guy. I do it too. We all do it. I drink out of a gay guy's glass. I don't care. Yeah, because that's the scene. The deleted scene is she's like, why'd you throw these cups in the garbage? And he's like, well, because a black guy touched them. She's like, but they were deleted scene is she's like, why did you throw these cups in the garbage? And he's like, well, because a black guy touched them. She's like, but they were gay.

And he's like, oh. And he takes them out. He pours water. And he's like, I love it. You think I'm going to serve a black glass to a gay guy? I respect my gay brothers too much. They're carefully labeled. All right.

So in the 90s, post-Oscar, it's sort of, I think, it's partly like, well, here's Denzel. It's still incredibly rare for a black actor to have an Oscar. He might have been like the third or fourth black actor to get an Oscar. It's very rare. Yeah, yeah. And so. Lou Gossett. Lou Gossett, Sidney Poitier, you know, there's only a few.

Anyway, Mo'Betta Blues, which is fantastic. Incredible performance. Early Spike Lee movie. You got Mississippi Masala, which is a nice... But these are not big movies. Is that Annabelle Shiora in that? No, it's...

That's Jungle Fever that she's in. Mississippi Masala is... What's her name? Sarita... Sarita Chowdery. Right, right, right. You got Ricochet with John Lithgow and Ice-T.

That's a good little movie. That's the beginning of his thrillers. I mean, that is kind of the thing that, for me, makes Denzel distinct is no matter how fucking rote and boilerplate the thriller is, he always feels like

he's giving the exact same level of performance. You know, like when you see him in like the fucking Equalizer, you're like, this guy's not phoning it in. Like this movie is not worthy of this performance. And there's only so much shit he can stuff into like a bag. Yeah. But it never feels like there's a disconnect between the type of work and craft he's putting into a shitty thriller versus a real meaty drama. Yeah, no. He has the same, applies the same intensity.

Like, what's that great little movie, Out of Time? Yeah. Great movie. That's great. He's always giving you full intensity. He's even good in Fallen, which is a bad movie. Fallen's pretty bad. But Ricochet, yes. I guess Ricochet's the start of Denzel Holds A Gun. He's like, let me just do an airplane thriller. Right.

It is interesting that he wins for supporting, but he is sort of such an emotional crux of glory. And before that in his career, he had been a TV lead, but more supporting in films. TV supporting. He's supporting on St. Oscar. He was a supporting guy,

but he was so fucking handsome and so charismatic that they were like, I guess this guy has to be a leading man now. Right. I think it's the Oscar that makes him a leading man. That's what I'm saying. After the Oscar, then they're like, we're not going to keep on bringing him in as the supporting player. No, that's what I'm saying. It's like, let's find him some roles. And then those early roles are more

indie movies. Ricochet is like a thriller. And then he does Malcolm X in 1992, which is a huge performance. A big deal. And it's much hyped, but he loses the Oscar. And of course, part of the reason he loses the Oscar is because he had just won an Oscar. And it was Scent of a Woman? It was Pacino that year.

Yeah. Who, huh? Who, huh? Exactly. It's insane that there was a movie called Scent of a Woman. Well, it's about the scent of a woman makes you go, ah! It's crazy that it was released in Smell-O-Vision.

That's almost the most bizarre. You can only smell Pacino. That was the problem. He was like, I'll donate my scent to the film. It was just stale cigars. Do you think that when Pacino was watching Batman Forever, he was like, that's the kid from the picture. I know him. He's wearing a mask, but I can tell.

I can see past that little domino. And then in 1993, Malcolm X, I think, is just, even though it was maybe not the biggest hit of the year and not the biggest Oscar winner of the year, it was a culturally significant film.

It was a huge, much discussed film. It performed well, and people were like, this performance should win. I feel like, obviously, Pacino's overdue. Denzel just won, but this is a towering, historic performance.

And in 1993, he has The Pelican Brief, which we discussed, which is a big box office hit. His first movie to make 100 mil. That sounds right. With him as the lead. You have a supporting role in Much Ado About Nothing, which he is very handsome. Oh, my God.

That's a lovely movie. He is such a fucking snack at this point in time Agreed. That's a lovely movie. He is such a fucking snack at this point in time. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of insane. I mean, that was,

they'd say, body like Arnold, face like Denzel. Yeah. You know, they were the two ideals. A hundred percent. And then he has this film.

And I do feel like this film is remembered as the Tom Hanks show and Tom Hanks won the Oscar and all that. He is fucking unbelievable in this movie. Incredible in the movie and Tom Hanks won the Oscar and all that. He is fucking unbelievable in this movie. Incredible in the movie and very important to its success, I would say. Oh, yeah.

I think the movie functions better because you have a character like his and a performance like his. Totally, and I think he's the lead of the film. I think it is a film that you could argue has two leads, but I would place him in lead as a category thing. They're both on the ballot for me this year.

Yeah. They both made the five. It's hard to do. Denzel would be my pick over Hanks, though. Neither wins for me. Who wins for you this year? Neeson. Neeson in... Schindler. I forgot this was the Schindler year. Well, that's the thing.

I do this thing at work where I recap Oscar ceremonies like 25 years ago, which is like back-breaking, horrible work. But we love to see it. It pays off in the end. But anyway, watching the broadcast for the 1994 ceremony, so for this year's crop of movies, it was just crazy what a year that was for important movies with important things to say.

It's a big year. Because it's also the piano which is a great movie but this is what she was like what the second woman nominated for an Oscar right? for best director to clarify and she won best screenplay as well

the five nominees for actor were Hanks, Daniel Day-Lewis for In the Name of the Father, Anthony Hopkins for The Remain of the Day, Lawrence Fishburne for What's Love Got to Do With It, which is an incredible performance, and Neeson for Schindler's List. And all of those performances, save maybe Daniel Day-Lewis,

are performances that removed of the other winners. Would have won. You just sort of say, well then, Larry was nominated for What's Love Got to Do With It, and you'd be like, oh, how didn't he win? What the hell? And then you look at who else is there. So that's where they are in their careers. I feel like they are both big stars.

And they could both carry the weight of the responsibility of this movie. People trusted them. They're smart actors. They're populist actors. So they kind of have all that going for them. If they had cast Day-Lewis or something, it probably would have been more alienating, you know? That's true. You have to cast Tom Hanks in it.

You have to cast. It helps that these are two guys who were not doing films like this. That this felt like an unfamiliar, you know? To play, like, to a certain degree,

there's a weird, like, slickness that is also kind of cheap to Denzel in this that is so different from what he had played up until this point. And Hanks is adding like a basement onto what people thought he could do, a basement and attic onto the structure that people believed he was capable of at this point

in time. But talking about how risky it was for them to do, like not to overstate this, but Denzel goes on a radio show when he is filming Philadelphia or about to start filming to promote something else. And they ask him, what are you working on? He said, I'm about to make a film, an AIDS drama. And they got like. They get hostile. Phone calls for the next hour. How can he do that?

That's disgusting. No, it's crazy. Why is he ruining his career? And Joanna was like, oh, that's not like it is weird. Yes, it's crazy to play the lawyer in a film about AIDS, people were like, this is despicable. I'll never go see one of his films again. I mean, it helps that Denzel's character is the sort of, the kind of casual bigotry. I mean, this is where I want to open the book briefly, okay?

Go on. I mean, this is where I want to open the book briefly, okay? Go on. I feel like very often films about prejudice and bigotry paint with such a broad brush where the intolerant people are so cut and dry, fucking horrific and evil. Sure. And this is the thing I want to talk about with Green Book. It lets people off the hook because almost anyone can watch it and go, well, I'm not like that. Right.

I just have my rational small phobias. Right. I'm not that awful. I wouldn't throw out the glass or whatever. And then they also come around to a greater sense of cleaner redemption where they are completely solved and absolved. Right. You know, and cry and say, I love you.

I can't believe how wrong I was. And this is a film in which the guy kind of takes the case for a very complex series of reasons. One is that his love of the law is such that he recognizes there is a pretty good case here. Another is that even though he has discriminated against this guy, when he sees this guy being discriminated against from a slight remove. Right, he sort of. as a black man for the first time he feels the anger watching it happen outside of him. It's Demi magic.

You're watching just him watch someone. Watch him. I love that. But he also then doesn't immediately go, I understand it. I love you. You understand at that point that he realizes that he should do it even though he feels uncomfortable with it. And the small victory of the film is like not to jump ahead but him just putting the mask on Tom Hanks.

The mere fact that like at the end of the film he's touching him. I mean it's another fucking incredible Demi scene. I guess we should sort of go through. Yeah, let's go through the movie. So you open with the streets of Philadelphia. Philadelphia. You know, I forgot that you open with a good chunk on Hanks in the firm without – Where everyone loves him. He's like the golden boy.

Everyone likes him. He's doing well. Well, the immediate open, which is so great, is Denzel and Hanks. Denzel and him arguing some sort of petty street zoning. And they're talking over each other. Yeah, I read some criticism. Maybe it was Larry Kramer piece or something else where the people were like, why would he go to this ambulance chasing lawyer? He's like at a high-powered firm.

He would surely know someone. It's like, well, but I think that's why they have that opening scene. We don't see what Denzel did exactly in court, but clearly he did something to impress. Yeah. Right. Hanks is sort of like, oh, this guy is going for it. Because Denzel gives this pretty eloquent defense in what's clearly kind of like a cheap shit case. And so I think Hanks is like, whatever, clocks that.

But then also it's clear that Hanks is suing a law firm. So white shoe law firms are not going to go with that. That would set a terrible precedent for them. Anyone within the old boys club is going to be off limits. There's going to be that weird tribalism. And he says I went to many... There's an obvious... And that scene where he approaches Denzel, Denzel has just talked to the other guy

who is some moron who walked into an open manhole. And is like, the city owes me money. And Denzel's like, yep, you do. Yeah, yeah. We'll sue the city. Take it up with the lady. It's such beautiful writing where he's like, so you're saying that you chose, even though you had any number of trajectories to walk through, to walk into that space without looking, even though it was clearly marked, and you fell down and you want to sue the city for injuries. He's like, yeah, do I have a case?

He's like, oh, you definitely have a case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it helps. Like, right, that's such an important distinction that it's not just, oh, he's the guy who Tom Hanks has seen on the ads on TV. It's that he's also seen the guy in action firsthand. And you sense that he has a respect lawyer to lawyer of like, I don't do it like this. I'm from a very different world than him

in terms of the cases we're taking and the sides we're taking. But I can see that guy has the goods where if he's been rejected by nine guys and needs to start thinking off the beaten path, he would go, what about Denzel? There's that scene later when the fancy lawyers see Denzel and they're like, it's the TV guy. They also vaguely know him.

They're like, oh, the TV guy. Okay. But yes, we see Hanks at work. I just like that it is not linear. It's not like the movie opens with a doctor being like, and the thing that you have is called AIDS and here's what the symptoms are

and here's what's going to happen to you he basically has it already sick the movie starts and he's covering up it he's covering it up he's going to the doctor

and that could be the scene where the doctor is telling him everything but no it's just sort of like peppered in there and then there's that incredible scene

where he calls his mom played by Joanne Woodward and she's like how are you and he's like my blood work's fine I'm doing fine by Joanne Woodward. And she's like, how are you? And he's like, my blood work's fine. I'm doing fine. And you cut back to her and she kind of just like cringes and almost cries on the phone. She starts like silently crying and pulls herself back together. I mean, that's the kind of shit that Jonathan Demme is bringing to the table at Benihana.

Okay? That's him flipping the thing. He's making the onion volcano. Tori Spelling's falling into it and there's a couple other things in this movie that I just noticed as I was watching it where I was like this is just not something that would automatically be in a movie like this or it's

something that a studio or whoever might just be like oh we can lose this well also like you know they could have mined obvious easy drama out of his family hates him he's isolated and instead he's like, no, it's a loving family who's supportive and maybe a little bit square and conservative

for the most part, but they're decent people and, you know. Nyswander did this really good interview with BuzzFeed like a year ago. With Adam Ferry, yeah. Yeah, I read that. Which is really good. And he said in it, like, it was a thing we debated about for a long time.

And we decided we don't need to do every element of potential conflict. We want to streamline what this movie actually is. And also, we thought it was more interesting because you always saw that. You always saw the family refusing to accept the anger, the crying, all of that. That you could start a movie at a point by showing that the family is pretty accept the anger, the crying, all of that, that you could start a movie at a point by showing that the family is pretty square and pretty, you know, seemingly kind of conservative in their temperament at the very least with the assumption that that happened at some point in the past and this is years later and they've worked to

a place of understanding. Yeah. later and they've worked to a place of understanding yeah and it is so much more sort of like fulfilling you know emotionally to watch the movie and to feel that sense of history of like it probably wasn't always this clean you know and the way the dad like in this very kind of like clenched way sort of says like you have dealt with this entire situation with a level of grace that i cannot even comprehend so i feel like i'm in no position to tell you what to do now it's just like devastating yeah because it's like a man trying really hard to show that even though he doesn't really understand his son he loves him so deeply and like has so much respect for him because he doesn't

understand that guy's really good face Good face. Just a good dad. You know, like, looks like a dad. You know, it's the Demi thing that would come up sometimes where it, like, comes up with Rachel getting married, where they're like, who has a wedding like this? Who's like this accepting of other cultures and all this stuff? And it's this thing that I think it was Pauline Kael said in the Melvin Howard review, or maybe it was Janet Maslam. it was Pauline Kael said in the Melvin Howard review,

or maybe it was Janet Maslam, she said it's an act of sympathetic imagination, which I think is such a good term for him, where it's like, A, you can sell that. You can sell that the family accepts him. And B, it is the more interesting thing to do for the sake of the movie, to try to present a world in which there are a lot of hardships. This movie

is about people overcoming great difficulty. But it's not about the most oppressed and sick and desperate person in the world. Why does everything have to be... And the most... Right. I mean, let's reopen the book. Okay, Tony Lipsaw this movie, of course he's a woke king. Yeah. But no, you know, where it's like Don Shirley is a fucking genius

who's the greatest person who ever lived in his thing. And every person he comes up against treats him like the biggest piece of shit in the world. Yeah. Yeah, I think all of that is so fucking smart. The stuff with the family is so good. And the fact, yeah, the time jumps in the movie are a thing I completely forgot. Because it keeps on taking these big jumps of like, you see Hanks being brought in with all the sort of old guys, including what a good use of Roger Corman as an actor,

like weird old square Roger Corman. Yeah, 100%. But all these guys, them noticing the lesion, which I think is then the first time you go into the Demi sort of POV camera. So much good close-up action. There's so much. It's fascinating. I mean, it's his guy. I mean, it's his move. He loves the close-up. How versatile that move

is, though. Especially while this is coming off of The Silence of the Lambs, which uses close-ups in a very involving and scary and tense way. But in this one, he'll oscillate where you use it sometimes in the courtroom, so it feels like Denzel, when he makes his opening remarks to the jury and he's delivering it straight to you, you're feeling the intensity of what if you were the person who was eventually going to be tasked with coming up with the ruling on this case and he's selling it to you. Yeah.

So you feel that kind of pressure. Sometimes it's used in intimidation. Sometimes it's used between Banderas and Hanks for intimacy. And it's all such subtle shifting of where the camera is in relation to the guys, what kind of angle they're at. Also, whether they're both looking directly in the lens. If one of the two characters in the conversation is looking slightly to the left, very often Denzel is the person who is looking at the camera.

Denzel does incredible face stuff. Yeah, I mean, and this movie is really part of its meaning is just like these are people. These are people. Look at them. They are people. And I think that's mirrored at the end where the closing shot is the video or the home film of him as a little kid. And I think it's reminding of like of a common humanity and everything like that. So like it's both interesting to look at the close-ups, but they also serve a sort of thematic purpose.

You have to stare these people in the eyes. It is hard to demonize people if you really take the time to look in the eyes and hear what they have to say, which is what this movie is about. It's been the story, I feel like, of so much of the advancement of gay rights in this country. The more that people realize that these are not aliens

that are being banished to dark corners of society. I mean, I was thinking about this watching the movie that, you know, obviously with regard

to like racial equality and all that, like Hollywood has been part of that narrative, but by no means the driving factor of it. Whereas with LGBT stuff, like,

if only, but with LGBT stuff, like, if only. But with LGBT stuff, I really do feel like Hollywood was leading that charge in, like, a huge way. And you watch a movie like Philadelphia. And, yes, maybe there are problems with Philadelphia or whatever. And I don't mean to dismiss people's, you know, issues with the movie. But, like, it was fucking doing something in a time when very few people were. And also, it is just one story.

It had a very specific sort of cultural goal, which is to make a movie that forces people to reckon with AIDS victims as human beings. But it is not trying to be a definitive text about the crisis. I just want to clarify for the audience, none of what they're saying is true.

This is a film about Bruce Springsteen's visions of the streets of Philadelphia. Of course, yes. And these are all things that just he saw on the streets of Philadelphia and it sort of forms

a somewhat coherent narrative, but I mean, as you could tell, every shot in the film is told from his point of view from a street of Philadelphia. You can tell, it's very visually clear.

Yeah, they were having a court trial on the street. Every courtroom. Yeah, actually, it's like an Easter egg. But the jump of him in the courtroom, not in the courtroom, in the back offices smoking cigars, being told that he's being made an associate or whatever.

Well, they kind of give him the weird sort of mind test where they're like, so what do you prefer? The obvious answer or the answer? We sort of like mind test where they're like so what do you prefer the obvious answer or the answer we don't like that one he's like I don't like and they're like well done yes brand him and as we said there is something unnatural

that hangs from this moment he's skinnier than you've ever seen him in a movie up until this point he's caked in makeup in a way the other guys aren't even the way his hair is made up is kind of weird and you realize oh it's because he's covering up this is not a movie that's gonnaaked in makeup in a way the other guys aren't. Even the way his hair is made up is kind of weird and you realize, oh, it's because he's covering up. This is not a movie that's going to have a surprise diagnosis 15 minutes in.

The moment which is the first time you go to the demi-pov. And then the movie jumps to a week later. If not more, it takes the jump to him in the hospital getting his blood work, right? And they're looking for the paper. Oh,

you're right. I'm sorry. And so you have all that unfold. And then you basically jump to him coming to Denzel's office. Right. There's, there's a gap there,

which is you see them, Bradley Whitford starting to tear his hair out. You don't see him get fired. It's a thing. No, huge. I mean, you see it

after the fact in flashback right but like he goes to Denzel's office he's like I've been like and he looks suddenly

like he's lost his hair he looks very pale you know he looks different right and Denzel says man what happened to your face and he says

I have AIDS and it's this incredible moment of they're shaking hands when he says it and Denzel sort of like holds the hand for a second and goes like you know the entire he says it. And Denzel sort of like holds the hand for a second and goes like, you know.

The entire temperature of the scene changes. Denzel clearly is a man who prides himself on being a professional. Is not going to chase this guy out of his office. No, he just becomes prickly. Is immediately terrified also. I mean, he's actually at fear for his life. And like Tom Hanks is asking him about his daughter and Denzel's like kind of itchy about that. And he picks up a cigar.

And Denzel's daughter and Denzel's like kind of itchy about that. He picks up a cigar. Yeah. You move to like Denzel's POV, which is all sort of like shaky wandering cam around the desk looking at everything that Hanks is touching or breathing on. He's touching Bruce Springsteen. Right. Who's standing in the corner. What's going on in this office?

Right. But it becomes a sort of pressure cooker. Had a baby girl. This pressure cooker scene of just like Denzel, wrongly, we know, immediately feels like he is at risk. Yes. Like this might be the meeting that killed him. Sure. Just even by humoring this man for

15 minutes. He clearly had not seen the Captain Planet episode about AIDS, which I know. You know, seared in my brain. Needs to be watching the planet. Even though Bruce Springsteen has it on the TV that he's holding under his arm. Playing on a constant loop. He went to Philadelphia to go to a screening of the Captain Planet episode. High, hard for wind.

And occasionally Neil Young will cross paths with Bruce singing his own song. But only occasionally. I also like Captain Planet. My Neil Young's too much like my Willie Nelson. I got a different idea. No one sounds like Neil Young, though. Isn't that Willie Nelson joke? Which one?

What's the worst thing that Willie Nelson can say to you during sex? I'm not Willie Nelson. That's a good joke. This is totally lateral, but you know what's one of my favorite jokes of all time? I don't know. My dad told me this, but it's like the joke about the shitty club promoter in Vegas. He's like, we got huge stars, huge stars in that incredible lineup. Sinatra's playing.

Sinatra's playing. And the guy goes, Frank Sinatra? He goes, no, not Frank Sinatra. Dan Sinatra. It's Sinatra playing, of course. And Davis Jr. We got Davis Jr. And they go, San Diego Junior?

They go, no, it's Ted Davis Jr. But it's, you know. And we got Goulet. Goulet is playing. They go, Robert Goulet? And he goes, yes. Vera said that? I just love that joke.

That's a good joke. Yes. Yes. You know what's a good joke. Yes. Yes. You know what's a crazy thing about Captain Planet? Because it was like Ted Turner and so much money behind it, and it was such a like, this is like a fucking cause. Like season one, all the villains of the week are played by giant movie stars. Yeah.

And then as the show continues, they all just are like, oh, I'm not going to do multiple episodes. Meg Ryan. And Jeff Goldblum. Yeah. It's all like crazy big people. I mean, Whoopi Goldberg stayed on as Gaia for the whole run, didn't she? Yeah.

Yeah. I think she did, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Don't look at me. But most of them like would establish a character.

Whoopi Goldberg did Gaia for two years and then handed it off to Margot Kidder. Naturally. I mean, who is basically like the B-list Whoopi Goldberg? Of course. Yeah. Heart, though. Heart. Well, yeahlist Whoopi Goldberg? Of course. Heart, though? Heart? Well, yeah.

Come on. That's the fifth element. No, it's not. It is. Well, I mean, love, but... Milo Jovovich, technically. He was coded as kind of gay, too,

that character. Mati. Mati? Yeah. My heart belonged to Wheeler, though. Wheeler was fire, I believe?

Yes. Yeah. So Denzel turns him down, goes to his doctor. His doctor's like a nice old guy who's like,

are you obliquely asking me for a blood test? Like, is that what this is? But there's also so much complication. Surely you're not such a moron

that you think you got AIDS from a handshake. So do you have AIDS? This is your way of telling me? He's like, I don't judge your

lifestyle. He's like, I don't judge your like lifestyle. He's like, I've known you since you were a child. But also in that Hanks Denzel interview scene, you know, Denzel's trying to find it out. And Hanks is explaining because he knows his fucking law shit so well, how he knows it's a case, how here are the elements, here are the precedent, this and that. And Denzel's like, well, I wouldn't take it. And he's like, no, because you think I wouldn't win. And he's like, no, it's not that. And it was like, it's this and that. And Denzel's like, well, I wouldn't take it. And he's like, no, because you think I wouldn't win? And he's like, no, it's not that. And it was like, it's because.

Right. He feels like I have a problem with it. Yeah, right. Do you have a problem? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, I do. But good luck. And he does that sort of half-hearted, like, hey, man, I'm sorry.

It's a tough break. Like, he sort of tries to, like, throw him some sympathy on the way out. Well, it's almost the fact that Hanks doesn't respond to him with anger makes him feel bad. He's so confident in saying, I have a problem with the way you live your life until Hanks just sort of goes like, okay. And then it's like, fuck.

This guy's not an asshole. And then I guess after, the library is pretty much the next big scene. Right, Bob the Goon tries to tell Hanks to use a private room. And once again, all these amazing Demi close-ups of all the other people sitting in the library watching it. Maybe I'm reading

too much into it, but there's a skinny young guy sitting right nearby who gets up because he's disgusted or whatever. But he reads a little gay too. So I think it's a little bit about internal life. Yeah, I don't want to be too close to this it's also this thing of like

AIDS is fucking scary like when you watch AIDS documentaries it really is just terrifying how much it ravished the body so aside from obviously just like that it's rep was like we have no way of treating it we have experimental drugs that are just sort of beginning to maybe mitigate it.

Yeah. But like they do horrible damage. Yeah. Those early cocktails were really rough. It's basically going to just be like a miserable life. But also removed from the sort of homophobia of the sort of fear of AIDS, it also just was a terrifying disease that turned people into zombies. Like it is upsetting to look at when you watch like AIDS cult documentaries and stuff. People who are at the last moments of their life.

They really look ghoulish, you know? And so it's such a visual disease on top of everything else. And the earmarks of it were so clear and so specific to it that you understand that sense of just like, in the same way that it's unnerving to visit a hospital, you know, and to see people who are that close to death. There's that element too, which also then just like, right, there's the internalized like fear of it even within the gay community. But then also for people who are prejudiced, it just gives them ammunition. Right. To be like, well, look at how I hang out with, it just gives them ammunition. Right. To be like, well, look at how – what am I supposed to do?

Hang out with this guy? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The Magic – I should note the Magic Johnson thing happened two years earlier. And that is also a sort of crazy landmark moment for the whole thing. Yeah. Where it's like a straight guy has AIDS and he's an athlete. And he's coming out and he's saying I want to be clear that I got through

having way too much heterosexual sex. That it is not just some gay plague. I basically slept with any woman that was near me because I was the most famous basketball player.

That had also been a weird sort of shockwave-y moment in recent history. Was that early? That's crazy. Wow. I mean, the Magic Johnson thing to this day is completely crazy. Yeah.

Like just to think about it to this day, like that that happened. Yeah. So early in. Right. In the sort of life cycle of AIDS in American consciousness and that he's still with us and his health never visibly diminished. Not really. And like that he returned to basketball, which no one remembers.

And that, you know, players were too prejudiced to basically play with him. Like in 94 when he went back. People didn't want to share a locker room with him. All that stuff. And they were afraid, like, what if he bleeds? And he like gets on, you know, there was all that sort of like, just crazy. So Denzel makes the move, you know. I mean, I also love it's such a nice little touch,

but he sees him sitting there and coughing. You immediately see him kind of recoil, like, disgusting. How dare he does this? And then when Bob the Goon walks over, Denzel shifts over his stack of books so that he can keep watching out of morbid curiosity without being noticed.

Well, right, even before that, there's a white guy staring at him. Yes. Right. Yes. And I feel like that's, like, really important visual. Oh, yeah, 100%. Yes. The guy, oh, you mean the guy, yeah, the guy who walks by,

just looking at him and then walks past. Demi was just so fucking good at conveying complex interpersonal dynamics in looks in moments in non-verbal physical language now Denzel works with Demi again

just to point that out right like he works with him in Venturion Canada did Hanks never work with him again no but then Gary Goatsman

who was one of Demi's guys who was in all of his movies and was a producer Hanks plucks him after this and becomes his play-tone partner. Yeah, 100%.

Anyway, just interesting. But, okay, so then we kind of get into the latter half of the film, which is, like, more just, like, courtroom drama. It's another beautiful shift, which is just Denzel comes over and goes, like, no, he's with me. And then they're just on the case. You don't have all the shoe leather of them preparing for the case. You don't have too much ramp up to the courtroom.

You have him going to his family and telling them like, you know. I'm going to do this and it's going to be tough. Right. And you have Banderas being introduced sort of as this like loving partner. Yeah. And one of the sexiest human beings.

It's funny in the Larry Kramer thing, he's like, and this actor, I don't know, with dark hair, and it's just like, well, because no one knew who Antonio Banderas was then.

Because I think he barely spoke English at that point. He barely spoke English at the time, although he had done, I believe, one, he'd done,

what's it called, Mambo Kings, which he said was an entirely phonetic performance. He did not speak English at all. At this point, I think he's just beginning to learn English.

But I mean, Larry Kramer fucking watch your Almodovar movies go to the art house buddy this guy was in Law of Desire and Time Me Up Time Me Down and shit like you know come on he's in Women on the Verge of a Nerd Breakdown and he's also Hollywood is priming him to be a guy

like he like does like three or four movies right like in quick success well in 94 you have Interview the Vampire, which is another supporting role. And then in 95 is when he's everywhere. That's Desperado, Miami Rhapsody, Assassins, too much. Assassins was that same year.

That's crazy. And that's the one that is the gif. Yes, the internet. But Femme Fatale also has a gif of him looking at a laptop and going, It's his move. It's his signature. They did it twice.

Yeah. It's his John Hancock. By the time this episode drops, he could be an Oscar nominee. I really hope to God he is. And I worry it won't be because it's a really stacked year and it's a very quiet performance. How tough Best Actor is this year because it's been such a bleak category in recent memories. He's my winner and I think it's just

like an astonishing performance. Yeah. Even by his strength. I was trying to figure out who I'm going to vote for for New York Film Critics Circle. This guy. I know.

Antonio Bender. But I just feel like there's no way we're walking out of that room without Adam Driver having won it. But we don't know. Who knows?

At this point, you'll know. We will. That's true. That's absolutely true. Yeah, no. Adam Driver does seem like... I mean, Sandler,

I guess also will. I could vote for him. I haven't seen that yet. That's absolutely true. Yeah, no, Adam Driver does seem like... I mean, Sandler, I guess, also. I could vote for him. I haven't seen that yet. He's also incredible. I feel like I need to take his annex before it or something. It sounds stressful. It's undeniably stressful. Do you want to hear the least surprising thing in the world? My father is so fucking amped for Unconjunct.

I think your father's in Unconjunct. I think my father... It's about him. Yes. It was pulled from his brain Inception style. Just for kicks because we're recording this so far in advance and all the stuff will be settled by the time it comes out. Do either of you

have like big things you want to push uphill that you're already thinking at this point like this is the one I really want to champion? I want to make J-Lo happen. J-Lo is the one that I think we can make happen and we'll see my actress this year is Jessie Buckley who won't

I can't but is a great performer but that's more of one of those things where I'm like I know that will not be a winner at a critics award like it's not a widely enough seen film do you know who my best supporting actress winner is as of this moment? Sofia Canedo

oh in Wild Rose I think she's insanely good I think it's a great movie I think she's crazy good I watched that on a plane and then I immediately watched Yesterday right after and I was like well that was the wrong order oh boy you're totally right

and the other Portrait of a lady on fire is my other like you know yeah movie to champion this year that i also think will end up being i i mean my my look on the record i think parasite will be the dominating force at our critics awards and the most critic awards and i think that's fine i love that movie but, you go to the courtroom almost immediately. I like that this film is so interested in the courtroom, you know, and sort of the theater of the courtroom. I think this film gets that really well. It is not a Just Mercy that is about, like, honesty and truth winning.

That's so much of Denzel's value in this movie is that he's such a good manipulator of language and perception. And the fact that you're watching him do that even when you know that he doesn't necessarily agree with everything he's saying that part of it is just the rush of being that fucking good as a lawyer I love the device of explaining it to me like I'm a six year old

and he keeps hitting that and it's just so effective that even they call it back in the jury room but at the same time it's clearly like it sticks in your head. And his other incredible boss move is just the, well, let's talk about it. Yeah. You know, like the sort of like.

He sort of runs at it. What's the subtext here? Let's expose the nerve. Right, right, right. That there are multiple times where he asks someone on the stand if they're gay, you know, I mean, brings in their personal life in that kind of way. Robards is good in this movie, by the way.

We haven't brought him up yet. I mean, he rules. He's like, the way that he keeps laughing, sort of, it's not exactly derisively, but they're in the trial,

like, you know, and there's kind of this weird, like sometimes he laughs at something that Denzel said. Yeah. Like, everyone's just treating it kind of like, well, whatever, you know,

we're here. And I think that helps, I don't know, weirdly drive home the intensity of what Tom Hanks is experiencing because everyone around him is just sort of taking it as like a sort of, it's like an interesting case. Like, you know. Right. And there's this arrogance of like, come on, everyone's going to agree with us. Right.

Like, who wouldn't fire a guy with AIDS? Right. Exactly. Like, they are so confident in their position where they're like, even if he has some legal basis for what he's talking about, no one is going to instinctually think we were wrong. And so he just sits back with that sort of air and laughing at the theater of all

of it and like, let's get it over with. That scene we forgot to mention where Denzel serves them with the court papers where they're in the sky with Dr. J. Where they're like, oh, it's the TV guy. And he gives Dr. J's card. But also when he goes to the hospital, when his wife's in labor and the guy in the hallway says, you're the TV guy and he gives Doshay's card but also when he goes to the hospital when his wife's in labor and the guy in the hallway

says you're the TV guy he takes out his pen and gives it to him like that he loves the sort of like celebrity of the type of lawyer he is I think to Denzel's

character too what's his name Joe Miller he's like you saw the ad there is a little bit of that where he's like

that's right I'm the TV guy fucking work yeah but yeah in the courtroom see it's like having Mary Steenburgen who is a little bit of that where he's like, that's right on the TV. Fucking work. Yeah. But yeah, and then in the courtroom scenes, like having Mary Steenburgen, who is a Demi Reagan, like she's, yeah. It reminded me of, I forget her name, the woman that they had do the Kavanaugh questioning Christine Blasey. Yeah, right, right.

And all you just saw, like the old white man sitting behind her kind of being like, well, we're buffer zone. You know, that feels very much like the old white man sitting behind her kind of being like, well, we're buffer zone. You know, that feels very much like the Steenburgen thing. Because there's that just, again, another great moment that movies often wouldn't include. The thing where she just sits down after the worst thing, the mirror trick. I hate this case. Where she's right. I hate this.

And I read like. And not in a way where you're like, oh, how sympathetic. But you're just, you can just like, this is not what she wants. That's the thing. And a lot of the negative reviews from the gay community in the 90s said that they felt like that moment was an easy out to show oh look she's not a bad person i think that's not what he's doing at all opposite i think he showed the hypocrisy it would be way easier out if she was just a prejudiced bigot and it is more villainous she's villain i got it bad person right it is more villainous that she is willing

to sell her integrity it's one of the interesting dynamics of this film is that Denzel is fighting on the right side of history that he doesn't really believe in. He is a bigot and he's cruel at times. He says awful shit to his wife about it. Right. And to the guy in the store. And there's the scene with the guy in the store. That scene is so good too.

That's very charged and is dealing with the know, the perception of this in the black community that was very different from the perception of him. And when he's at the bar and they do the news coverage and they go like, so what Joe, you getting a little light in your loafers? All that stuff. And he transitions from like, you think the movie is taking an easy out of oh, he has already

been transformed by Tom Hanks. Because he starts going like yeah, I'm a homosexual. I go to the clubs. Like he's like doing the joke and going like, and in fact, you're my type of guy. And you're like, that's the bit he's going to do. He's going to turn the prejudice on them. And then he stops doing the bit and goes like, I hate them. I find them disgusting. It's my job.

And it doesn't feel like he's saying that to try to get them off of his back. It's truly like he feels the weight of like, I kind of hate that I'm being associated with this case. People criticize that vacillation. They're like, well, it's almost like they shot two different movies because he's like supporting this cause in the courtroom and then outside he's

like assaulting basically a man who hits on him at a drugstore. And you're like, but right, because those two things can occupy the same head. People don't change that quickly. People are weird and nuanced and fucked up and contradictory. And also Mary Steenburgen is the shadow of him. I mean there's something to the fact that Denzel is so powerful, right, but is also in this performance very slick and kind of prickly, you know? Yeah.

That he is sort of aggressive in the way and mocking in the way that he questions people in the courtroom, you know? Sure. Or does this sort of like treat me like I'm a six-year-old thing. And Mary Steenburgen is the exact opposite where it feels like there's no theatrics. She is so folksy. As an actress, she is so genuine. Fact. And she is very earnestly and very sort of quietly saying all this really gross prejudice stuff.

Yeah. But making it sound like it's just a natural, obvious thing. And that one moment of her saying, I hate this case is going like, they're both mostly praying to the altar of their job and the salary. You know, the ego of being a good lawyer and who you work for and how much you can get in the settlement, all of that, is in both cases overriding their actual moral compass. Yeah.

And Denzel Washington is a black lawyer who has to ambulance chase to make a living in a very, very segregated and racially charged city going up against this incredibly powerful rich white law firm. And I can buy that as his motivation just more than a sudden sort you know, like a sudden sort of epiphany about about like gay rights or whatever. I think he feels more pity for him and does not feel any empathy for him until the opera scene. I mean, that's the big thing.

It's not like he immediately starts liking Andrew. I think he just goes like, fuck, I've been prejudiced against as well. Let's get to that damn opera scene because I just want to talk about how that is the Oscar clip and it was his Oscar clip as a part of the

scene obviously and it's so funny to think of it as an Oscar clip it is so bizarre because it is such a daring and interesting it looks like suspiria

yeah I mean he goes into theatrical lighting for the first time suddenly Tom Hanks is in a spotlight exactly these crazy overhead angles I mean the way he uses into theatrical lighting for the first time. Then we were suddenly Tom Hanks is in a spotlight. Exactly. You're at these crazy overhead angles.

I mean, the way he uses angles in this movie. The angle is like over the forehead. It's like such a secure. I don't know that I've ever seen a sustained shot like that, you know, in something. It was enough to stop 19-year-old Griffin Newman flipping through the channels in a common room and go, what is this film making? Like, it was so visually arresting that I was like, what the fuck is this movie

and why didn't anyone tell me that Philadelphia is this? And at that point, had we ever seen Tom Hanks in such an artful kind of shot? No, absolutely not. Like that was brand new. Absolutely not. Turner and Hooch has a couple really nice angles, right? Yes.

Well, yes. Because Hooch was the cinematographer. Well, right? Yes. Well, yes. Because Hooch was the cinematographer. Well, it's all one take. It was shot all from his collar. Yeah. And it's Bruce Springsteen's dog. Yeah. Yeah, of course.

It's weird that Russian art gets all that credit for what Turner and Hooch actually pioneered. Right. Who's the lady in Turner and Hooch? I just was going to say Hooch, but I decided I've done that joke too many times. Like Mary Stewart Masterson or like Mary Kay Place or someone like that.

Jessica Shandy. Cheryl Lee Page. Catherine Hepburn. Let's see. It's Mare Winningham. Oh, I knew it was an M. Who is, when did I just see Mare Winningham? Huh?

Did you see her in a play? No, I saw her in a movie. Oh, Dark Waters oh which you saw that the Todd Haynes film which again

this is January I fucking loved everyone who had seen it was like yeah it's okay it's like a legal drama and I'm like legal drama

wait has someone done wrong but that is a much more straight forward sort of legal movie right yes it is

but I think it fucking rules and I can yell about it later he's a good filmmaker yes yeah But that is a much more straightforward sort of legal movie, right? Yes, it is. But I think it fucking rules and I can yell about it later. He's a good filmmaker. Yes. Yeah. Anyway, just Bill Pullman has like three scenes as a showboating West Virginia lawyer. Oh, my God. I was just literally hooting and hollering and firing my six shooters in the air. I don't know how to describe it.

David, you can't say that series of words that quickly without preparing it. Bill Pullman has three scenes. He has a thing going. I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, my God. This thing's dealing for the bottom of the deck. I'm getting full body chills. That pizza just folded me.

Whoa, no way. What if I started using that as a term like, you know, she really folded my pizza. Oh, boy. Anyway, the opera scene. It's just funny because like now we think of the Oscar scene as this like the moment that you deride. It's kind of like in Green Book when Mahershala gives that speech. I mean, Mahershala does a good job. Yeah.

But where you're like, oh, here we we this is the Oscar scene they are so off in the scene where the actor has free reign to sort of like almost step out of the film circle everything the film is saying underline it

place it in italics and then scream it with as much emotion as possible and this is the opposite of that this is the power of this scene

is like finally like Denzel sees this man as a person right and sees him as like a person with feelings and opinions and thoughts yeah like feeling and passion and all that right and obviously hanks does crush it yeah oh yeah but those shots of denzel's face

and first it's very dark and then there's that sort of red light coming up on him uh really blow my mind and then you're actually watching someone's heart change. You go from, right. Yeah. You go from that to this scene where Denzel just needs to go home and hold his child. Yeah. And Joanna was watching with me and she was like, oh, don't pick up the baby. You're going to wake up the baby.

And I'm like, Joanna, he needs to hold his baby. And then he like gets into bed with his wife. And just holds her. And it looks like he just came back from war. He's staring off in the middle distance with his eyes full of tears. And this is where, again, I'm like, a studio might just, or a director might be like, well, we have to cut

this. This is just like, you know, too soggy. This is the exact film Demi wants to make. This is the most important thing. As you said, the entire goal of this film is to make people realize that people with AIDS are human beings. And that is where this film succeeds to make people realize that people with AIDS are human beings. And that is where this film succeeds so wildly.

And I read arguments as well that they're like, I went down reading too many 90s reviews of this film. But only 90s reviewers understand. And not just people in the gay community, but I feel like a lot of critics who felt like, oh, this is the prism I have to view this movie through. I'm going to assume what other people would find offensive about it. And they said like when he has this opera speech, it comes out of nowhere because you know so little about what he – who he is, his personal life, his interests up until that point in time. And I'm like first of all, it's not like this is really that kind of movie. time. And I'm like, first of all, it's not like this is really that kind of movie.

It's not like this one has a bunch of scenes where Denzel talks about how much he loves watching hockey or gardening or anything. It's not a movie about people's hobbies. It is so sort of propulsive. It jumps over such periods of time. But you also need to sort of withhold that information

from the audience. You cannot have Tom Hanks talk about anything outside of business, his health, his immediate life to Denzel until this moment because it also needs

to come after the Halloween scene where for the first time he's socializing with him. And he sees him, you know, and you know, look.

A cover of heaven from the talking hand. Absolutely. And Tom is at his straightest dressed in navy whites with Antonio. Yes. I love that Denzel

has such a fucking really toning it down corny dad joke costume yes that he's a lawsuit he's a lawsuit right that's funny

yeah and he orders wine which I think is interesting I also love I just want to say sorry the movie is about someone's hobby

Bruce Springsteen his hobby is walking the streets of Philadelphia showing people VCR recordings of Captain Clay I love that he stays after the party to talk about the case or whatever and it just made me think

about, this is kind of a weird connection, but like the scene in Seven where Morgan Freeman goes to dinner and they have the dinner and they laugh about the train rumbling the house and then later they're like, Gwyneth Paltrow's asleep or whatever and they're like in the living room working on the case.

I like that sort of like, okay, like social time done. Let's get back to work. There's something kind of cozy about it. I love that movie. I guess. And then to have this scene in this movie. When I think of Seven, I think cozy. Yeah.

Oh, fully. Yeah, just a cheery little. It's a warm blanket. And no one in it is problematic, which is great. Oh, perfect. Oh, it's full of a bunch of woke kings. This is my new thing, I guess. Yeah.

But yes, I do love that kind of energy in scenes. I also just think it's a thing I love about Demi where, and we talk about this a lot. It certainly happens a lot in Melvin and Howard where like what he chooses to cut over and what moments he chooses to spotlight instead. what moments he chooses to spotlight instead, it is so great that there is no scene where, and I feel like most movies didactically have the scene where Andrew invites him to the Halloween party, where he's like, oh, maybe I'll come.

He goes home to his wife, can you believe it? She gives him a hard time, she's the heart of Green Book. You have to go, she's the heart of Green Book. She explains to him that he has to go, then you see there, it's so much more powerful to be like, you don't know what changed in him. But something broke him down just enough to go to this Halloween party and feel really uncomfortable.

Like he showed up and he's so uptight being there. And that's all you need to know. That he made that much progress that he was willing to show up maybe just because he knew that was the thing he had to do before he could then after the party sit down and talk about the work. When is the scene when he sort of slightly when they're talking the case when he sort of bluntly says to Hanks like I still don't I'm not into it right and Hanks is like well thanks for sharing that

with me. I feel like it's in the courtroom right it's like at the desk yeah and that's pretty late in the movie it's just they never quite like let it go. No. I like that they don quite like let it go. No. Yeah. I like that they don't become like best friends. Right. They don't have him come over to his house for dinner at Christmas and meet the whole family and all the Italian guys are like, hey, you, Don Shirley, right?

Hey, cool guy. Right. That like fucking thing in Green Book where somehow him becoming less racist immediately cures all of his friends of racism by proximity? Yeah, well, you know. I don't know. To fold your pizza is to fold the world. That is true. Were you going to say something else about the... No.

I don't think so. I think it's lovely and unexpected and weird at the same time. I kind of was left feeling like, how much of this is actually happening? But yeah, it's just like, again, I can't imagine that being in this kind of movie now. No, people would say you can't do that in this type

of film. That's too big of a swing. It's too weird. It's too big of a tonal shift, a stylistic shift. I mean, all of that. But then enough people went to go see that in theater in 1993 that it made $200 million worldwide worldwide it's like crazy it's insane it is crazy

I also like that the film does not have the legal drama part of it does not have some scene where suddenly

someone just gets on the stand and is like yeah we actually did fire him because he was gay and that's that you have the scene

with the lesions but that's sort of an interesting legal scene where Mary Steenburgen has made this fatal error of bringing the mirror in to do her trick.

And it's like, once you bring that mirror in, then Denzel's gonna get to use the mirror too. Yeah. And like... That shot is so beautiful too where it goes to like

Hanks' perspective. Well, that thing where the angle just feels like it's tilting more and more. But yes, only in the mirror scene. Where he tilts the mirror to get him in the frame. But yes, him on the stand when he finally starts making a stand

and Demi just ratchets up. Losing strength. Yes. So I like that that's kind of... Charles Napier is the judge. I was going to say. Because that's also a really fascinating performance. It's just fun to do this in blank check,

to watch these movies basically in order and just see all Demi's guys in every movie. The guy with the lazy eye is the doctor, the slightly prejudiced doctor. And you're like, two movies ago, Napier was Michelle Pfeiffer's gay hairdresser. Right, in Marriage of a Woman. And now he's like the bigoted sort of like judge.

He's not bigoted. He's kind of like, he's sort of playing it down the middle, but, you know, kind of letting them do their antics. But that's what I like is I feel like he is leaning on the side of prejudice but telling himself that he is completely open minded and even handed

and there's that series of moments. At the end he's just like this case is concluded. Like he doesn't. Daniel Von Bargen who plays lead drawer. Right. And doesn't speak until he gets into, you know, closed quarters. There's this series of shots where they're exchanging looks with each other, where Napier will say something kind of like snarky as a judge. And then he'll look over to Daniel Von Bargen. Daniel Von Bargen will smile at him being like, yeah, this is like fucking crazy, right?

Like they're both not really taking this guy's plight seriously because Napier will say the like, look, this courtroom is free of any prejudice, any judgment. We don't see race. We don't see orientation. But he says that right after he said, I don't understand why you want to talk about this person's personal life. Right. Yeah, yeah.

You know, like, you know, when Denzel asked someone else if they are gay, Napier immediately goes, well, that's not something we bring into it. But of course they would never question someone's heterosexuality in that way. If someone's wife was invoked on the stand, he wouldn't go, please, this courtroom is— Like when they say you're an active homosexual, like the adjoining host is like, imagine saying someone's an active heterosexual. Well, it's the kind of thing where like— I'm active. Right. But that's the thing.

Like Napier keeps on doing shit like that. And then he'll kind of thing where like... I'm active. Right. But that's the thing. Napier keeps on doing shit like that and then he'll kind of make a little joke out of it and it doesn't feel like he's going like, man, gay people are gross. It's more him going like,

man, this fucking world. Yeah. I'll tell you he's an active But that he has a guy in the... Bruce Springsteen walking those streets. Okay.

David's weeping a fucking... a fastball against the... of the replacement. I'm like knocking over a coconut. A carnival. Throwing batteries. Yeah, throwing a – well, where did the bend left to that?

Whipping batteries. Putting a little extra fold on that pizza. Yeah. Oh, boy. I just think that, yeah, the film is so good in presenting all the different sort of levels of prejudice against him. Well, right. I mean, the thing about it is that like, when I didn't a friend said this to me a couple years ago

after I had a particularly odd not bad exactly, but odd experience with some family members over Thanksgiving where he was like, well, yeah, when you're gay, like everything is R-rated automatically. You can't talk about anything. I was talking basically to my cousin's kid who's a teenager who I...

The mom just sort of froze up and got weird and I was like, what is going on? I said, oh yeah, you still like doing that when I was your age or whatever. Then I was thinking about it more. It's like, oh, it's because there's all that attendant stuff. I think that thing in the courtroom really well illustrates it. These aren't actively like, actively bigoted

people. It's just, like, it's an extra layer of two-person. And that thing that keeps on getting brought up of, like, well, so, like, you got AIDS by accident. There are the AIDS victims who are sort of, like, innocent. What a horrible tragedy that they caught this

disease that, whether or not I'm a religious fundamentalist, everyone's sort of buying into this idea that whether or not I'm a religious fundamentalist everyone's sort of buying into this idea that it's like a gay curse you know and what are the odds of someone outside of the community getting that unwillingly they didn't do anything to ask this upon themselves

and one of the big things Steve Merchant tries to tag Hanks with is like have you been to like a gay porn you know if you picked up guys on the street like trying to be basically like well your lifestyle and she does that super shitty thing where she tries to frame it as like because of course the course keeps the case

keeps on coming back to this idea that he was you know insufficient as a lawyer yes that that was the firing grounds right he was incompetent that she brings up all of that as well do you consider yourself to have As a lawyer. Yes. That that was the firing grounds. Right. That he was incompetent. That she brings up all of that as, well, do you consider yourself to have good judgment? Right.

You know? And would you say potentially infecting your partner is good judgment? So she's like trying to hide behind the guise of like, I'm not shaming you for being part of the gay lifestyle. I'm saying you made a really big risk in your life. Yeah. Which shows that that was the kind of judgment or lack thereof that could be applied to your dealings as a lawyer. That scene also where – I forget who it is but the – is this the Roger Corman thing? Now I'm trying to remember. The caviar scene.

Caviar scene. Remind me. Where it was a client who Hanks had previously represented and won the case, and they bring him to trial to speak to Hanks being incompetent as a lawyer. Right. Oh, yeah, and the guy is like, he is competent. Right. He's changed his wording from like...

He's like, if I got a bologna sandwich, you would call that competent. But if you had caviar for lunch, you would not call that competent because six months ago, you said that Andrew was the caviar of lawyers. All that stuff is just like such good fucking lawyer speak shit. Oh, the woman of course who got

AIDS through the blood transfusion. And when they're trying to railroad her and back her in the corner and make her passively say things that kind of condemn Hanks more. And there's that moment where the two of them look at each other and you're like, fuck, this is like the brutality of the legal system. People manipulating it. She's now

said something that's going to hurt Hanks even though you can tell that isn't her intention. And then she just speaks up. In that moment of sympathetic imagination where she's like, I want to just say one final thing. There is no difference between me and anyone else who has AIDS. That's – I mean that's – once again, it's like that's the shit that Demi wants to say. Like he wants to grab the American public by the shoulders and go like, I understand you

don't all live in the East Village. You're not losing friends on a regular basis. Right, right. But he smuggles it in in entertaining court drama, in artful filmmaking, in big, you know, like, it's just such

a clever delivery system for something that people needed to hear. Yeah. You know? Right. So it doesn't feel like Vegetables,

the way that Just Mercy kind of feels like, okay, like, you know. Just Mercy is very vegetable. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. Yeah.

And then even, like, all the other sort of, like, AIDS crisis movies of the time are not things that people revisit because even if they felt kind of pivotal in terms of what they were saying, I don't think anyone is like, man, the craft in Longtime Companion is so strong. I'm so engaged in those narratives. It's also telling that Longtime Companion, the performance that gets an Oscar nomination is the grieving unafflicted partner right it's like that's the tragedy is the person who has to watch someone die

I've never seen that film I know that's a very early yeah that was like the first one yeah and that's not even it's like the same as the Goldman Company indie anyway the jury basically sits down and it's pretty obvious that their whole thing is like, look, you can't convince me the guy was incompetent.

You'd put him on the fucking case a couple weeks ago. I just love that it comes down to like, they put him on his best case. Why would you do this? Can I ask a question though about that? Wouldn't it be a mistrial to have Bruce Springsteen swaying the jury in the jury room? I don't know. I mean, the laws of Philadelphia are very complex. That's true.

And he was taking advantage. They're just written. They're written on a hoagie. Because in the other – Yes, and his other hand is the Constitution of Philadelphia, which, of course, is a hoagie. It is. As we all know. They keep it under the Liberty Bell.

God. The emotional final scenes of the film are Hank's collapsing in court, Hank's in hospital, and the scene we talked about where Denzel is sort of whatever, you know, changed enough to reach over and adjust his mask

and not be afraid of touching him. And you have his entire family come and ostensibly say their goodbyes. It's that weird thing when you have someone who is on death's door where you know that any time you leave the room, it might be the last time you ever see them. And they're like, well, they're like, I'll see you tomorrow. And they're all doing that. And then the last brother breaks down.

Like, everyone's doing the like, and remember, you still owe me 10 bucks. Like, right. And then, yeah. Yeah. Very sad. I cried a lot. Me too. And I had to go

get something in the kitchen and my roommate and his boyfriend were out there and I was just like red-faced and messy and they were like, hi, how are you?

Well, a humblebred. That was me after I saw The Time Traveler's Wife on cable one time. And you just remember how fun it was to make that movie. My son. My dad. And you just remember how fun it was to make that movie. My son.

My dad. And then there's, yeah, you know, the memorial and you see Denzel go in there and then there's what feels like an hour of home videos. Yeah. What's also, you got this long one-er throughout the entire room. Which I love. I love that. And you tweeted this last

night, but like, it doesn't have a death scene per se, but it is a movie that feels like it very briefly, only at its tail exquisitely sad but beautiful death scene that is really just about the mother of the man who dies of AIDS in Paris in 1991, I think it is. And his friends just kind of – they're there. They're sad, but they're also like – Trying to celebrate the life that was lost. Yeah, it's gorgeous, and it really – it feels so real. And this – in Philadelphia, they knew he was going to die. Of course.

It's not like the shock. It's just like there's a little relief because he's free from pain. And so I just think that that end scene and that Neil Young song capture it perfectly. Philadelphia, what's up? Yeah. The Phillies.

He's playing it in the corner. I just think that seems great. I love the Philadelphia. Yeah, it's I love LA, but. I love Philly. He's actually just Yeah, I love L.A., but... I love Philly. He's actually just talking about meat. Yes. No one called him on it.

Philly, I think. Let's play the box office game. I want to say a couple of fun things here. As you said, it is that humanizing thing of just like, you're not even showing kinks anymore. You're not even showing America's favorite movie star. You're not even showing this performance. You're showing video footage of a random kid, an actor

how you play a kid or whatever. I assume so, right? That's not real home video footage. No, I don't think it can be. But it does underline this thing that we lose track of just like, everyone was like a child once. And you would never discriminate against that

child in the way you do at the adult. And nothing has fundamentally changed with that person just because you dislike their identity. It's not an action that they made. Which, that's just when I started crying. I was like on the brink re-watching most of the movie and then that

just, I dropped a couple tears. I was just, you dropped a couple. And I think the Neil Young song is great. I think it's a better song. It's really pretty. Oh no, that's crazy. Streets of Philadelphia

fucking honks. That's crazy. That's nuts. I do like the Neil Young song. I think Philadelphia slaps though. I think it's a bop. It's good.

It's good. I mean. I put it on at the club when the beat drops. I'm just out there. It's an interesting year for original song because you got

A Wink and a Smile, which is a nice listen to Seattle song. Okay. You got, again, the Janet Jackson song from Poetic Justice. Oh, yeah. And then, I mean, you have the movie, the song that probably should have won,

which is The Day I Fall in Love from Beethoven's Second. Yeah, I'm proud of that song. Beethoven's Second? That's right. Got an Oscar nomination for Richard Lawson? He got an Oscar nomination for, of course, the Academy Award for Motion Picture of the Year. Well, me and Beethoven co-wrote it. Remember Beethoven's Second?

Does Charles Grodin remember Beethoven's Second? I mean, he was in it. Is that the one where he pulls the house down on the lake house probably probably god I just remember

when I was a kid like renting some video right from the video store and there was a trailer for I believe Beethoven won in front of it

Beethoven's first Beethoven's first and just being like I have to see this now like you know I'm probably like six years old, right? It's like,

remember it's the trailer where Grodin's like going up the stairs and he's like, and then there's just the dog. And I was just like, this looks like a masterpiece. Yeah.

I gotta see it. You just ran into your parents. Who's the wife in that movie? Well, it's Bonnie Hunt. It's Bonnie Hunt. Yeah, yeah. It's Hunt and Grodin. Yeah.

And then Grodin pretty much retires. And Pacino's the dog? Pacino is the dog. Yeah. Hunt and Grodin. I think Grodin pretty much retires. And Pacino's the dog? Pacino is the dog. Yeah. Uncredited, but yeah. So should we do the wide weekend? Oh, it platformed? It platformed.

Let's do the narrow weekend. Let's do the actual release date, December. Basically, it's Christmastime, 1993. Okay. So it opens limited. But it's important to remember this. He actually has

a great Christmas song. Yeah. Santa Claus is coming to town. He's like Hey Clarence! I know but I love it. He's like Hey Clarence! You've been a good boy this year. Santa's gonna bring you a saxophone. Yeah. Just important to remember it was a big hit. It made 77 domestic 200 worldwide. Adjusted for inflation. It's fun. Just important to remember, it was a big hit. It made 77 domestic,

200 worldwide, adjusted for inflation. It's like 170 or something. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. 172. Yeah, crazy. I mean, absolutely insane.

Yeah. So, domestic, number one at the box office. It's a film we've mentioned on this very episode. A big legal thriller in its second week. It's not the Pelican Brief?

It is the Pelican Brief. Wow. Den Zell. And Julia. Den fucking Zell. I'm just saying Pelican Brief? It is the Pelican Brief. Wow, Denzel. And Julia. Den fucking Zell. I'm just saying, to have both of these at the same time.

That's crazy. Number two is the most quotable comedy of all time. Beethoven's Second. Nope. Good guess, though. That's number four.

From 1992. It's the most quotable comedy of all time. But I can't tell if you're being sincere or not. We've discussed it on this podcast as the most quotable comedy of all time

oh it's Mrs. Doubtfire oh drive by fruiting a long time ago I was like well that's the most quotable comedy of all time and I was like I feel like I was in the room for that it came up in a box office game as a hint it's very quotable

and I was like what's a quote and you said hello right yeah It's very quotable. And I was like, what's a quote? And you said, hello! Hello! Right. Yeah. Oh, boy. Drive-by fruiting, though. Drive-by fruiting, yeah.

I don't know. I am job. Dude looks like a lady. Doesn't she go, I am job? I sound like Bruce singing everything. I am job. I am job is funny. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mrs. Doubtfire. Care to tell me the domestic final total of Mrs. Doubtfire? 264? 219.

Okay. Adjusted for inflation. It was one of the 10 highest grossing films of all time. How are you surviving the box office mojo? I'm on the numbers, baby.

Fully switched. I love it. Numbers is good. Bye-bye, mojo. I gotta say, like several times a day I type in box office Mojo to look up something

and then I just like I've forgotten it I feel such a great sense of loss it's gone I just got so familiar and comfortable

with that interface I've been on it for so long I will learn to love the numbers credit to the numbers they've been very responsive as clearly they're being flooded they're stepping up

and they're like hey we just added this we just we keep posting updates where we're like oh you guys asked for sorting we're gonna put in sorting so good job to the numbers

number three at the box office is a sequel to a big hit comedy but it's not Beethoven's second but did you get the adjusted number on Doubtfire? uh 485 domestic unbelievable

unreal yeah hello hello she has cake on her face. She does. Okay, wait. Number four or number three?

Number four was Beethoven's second, but number three is another. Number four was Beethoven's second? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. Okay. But number three,

what's the final total on Beethoven's second? Let's find out. I'm going to guess 41. 52. Pretty good. Very robust. But yeah, so,

but number three is another sequel to a hit comedy. Is it Wayne's World 2? No, that is number five. Wow.

It's crazy to think about that. Yeah. When did the first Wayne's World, was that 1992? A year earlier. They were like

11 months apart. Yeah. It was very much a look, let's just squeeze this for all it's worth kind of thing. No, it's just a crazy thing. Like Christmas time in the 90s where they're like, this is a post Home Alone world where they're like, yeah, comedies. Just flood the zone with comedies.

90s really were peak comedy franchise. 100%. You got the Pelican Brief up at top. But apart from that, Doubtfire, Beethoven's Second, Reign's World 2, and number three that you guys refused to guess, a sequel to a hit comedy film. I didn't realize we had skipped over it. How long ago, how many years had it been since the original?

Is this number two? This is number two. Two and final? Yes. Although, I mean, you could make a third. I see it coming back mean you could make a third I see it coming back you could make a third the first one

just to triple check so this is coming out obviously in 93 the first one came out in 92 so just a year earlier wow yeah the first one

I mean it is a big drop off the first one made 231 domestic and this one made 57 jeez this was a little bit like it's not Adam's Family Values. No.

It's not Sister Act 2? It is. Back in the habit. That was so soon after that. I think they might have they could have waited a year. But that's

Wayne's World was the same thing. It was so fast. Too fast. This is the era of like Paramount Touchstone and Fox just whipping them out.

Wayne's World also 47 Just folding pizzas. Yeah. And like the Fox just whipping them out. Wayne's World also 47. Just folding pizzas. And the first one made 183 to 47. So it's just kind of like yeah, relax, relax, relax. Number six is Geronimo and American Legend. Walter Hills, Wes Studi,

and Oscar. Number seven is The Piano. Excuse me, it's called The Pianer. The Pianer, which it is. Excuse me. It's called the piano, the piano, which look, I just still think it's crazy. That movie made any money or made one Oscars.

Yeah. That movie is insane. I love it. It's one of my favorite movies of the nineties. I love it, but it is that made $40 million. It is one of my favorite jokes. I forget where it happens.

It might be in an, Oh, hello, but the snub nose pistol. Yeah. John Mulaney referring to Harvey Keitel's penis as a snub nose pistol yeah Harvey Keitel's penis John Mulaney referring to Harvey Keitel's penis as a snub nose

little pistol Jesus um we got Schindler's List that guy he really had an incredible run in the 90s

Harvey Keitel's penis yeah it's weird he hasn't worked in a while it's just wild it's just like alright what's this movie

I guess I'll go see it I'll probably give it it'll get like a Wayne's World 2 just wild. It's just like, all right, what's this movie? I guess I'll go see it. I'll probably give it. It'll get like a Wayne's World 2 type gross. Okay, what's it about? Well, this mute woman is married to an aristocrat in New Zealand, and she really loves her piano, but they can't bring it up the cliff, so she starts to sell sexual favors to bring it up key by key. And they're like, one of those.

All right, fine. It's like, what? What is this movie? He butts on the same stories over and over. Harvey Keitel's dick is in it a lot. It's a weird little girl.

She's so good. Incredible in that movie. Oscar winner. Yep. Schindler's List just opened. It's second week.

And then you got Adam's Family Values. A great, great work. Yeah. Perfect comedy sequel. And that was like only what? That was two years after. Yeah. Because great, great work. Yeah. A perfect comedy sequel. And that was like only what?

Way better. That was two years after? Two. Yeah. Because number one is 91. Those movies were also, unlike like say a Wayne's World 2, incredibly expensive.

Yeah. Right. Those movies have the production value. Production value. Costuming and all that. The effects still look so good too. Like I, Thing looks fucking great in that movie.

How cool is Thing? And all the crazy like Evil Evil Dead style cameras following Thing. Remember Thing? Thing. Oh, yeah. The hand boy? Of course. They finally just put Values out on Blu-ray.

It had not been out. It was only the first one. So good. Values is way better than the first one. Where's my 4K? Where's my steelbook? I don't know. And then the Three Musketeers.

Oh. I saw that in theaters. With Chris O'Donnell. Shino saw that one too. And Gerard Depardieu. Kiefer Sutherland, I believe. Oh, oh. Now Gerard Depardieu is in Man in the Iron Mask.

Right. Yeah, this is the one with all the... It's like the young guns. Right, yeah. So it's Sheen, Sutherland, O'Donnell, and who's the fourth? Let me look it up. Isn't it like Oliver Platt or something? I think it is Oliver Platt.

It's Oliver Platt. It's Oliver Platt. I saw that film in theaters. It's Sheen, Sutherland, O'Donnell, Oliver Platt, Tim Curry is the villain, and then Rebecca DeMornay is the love interest. Wow. That is a real-time capsule right there. It really is.

Remember that? No? All for One, the song. It really is. Remember that? No? All for one. The song. Yeah. Was it Bryan Adams and Sting? Bruce Springsteen. Right.

Sorry. No, I'm trying to find the poster. That was Disney? Yep, Disney. There they are. There they are. There they are. Bunch of hotties. Sheen gets first billing.

Is that a poster where they're actually going left to right, matching the heads with the names? No, not at all. I couldn't see from this distance. I was asking. Here we go. Here's a zoomed in. When I think of 18th century France,

I tend to think of Charlie Sheen and Keifer Sutherland. Keifer right in the middle. Kiefer in the middle looking good. Looking pretty snacky. Yeah. Chris O'Donnell just looks just like the blandest pat of butter. Oh, I mean, he was pretty... Oh, I know. He was a pretty big... Like, him in Batman Forever was a

sexual awakening for a lot of gay men. And for Michael... And for Joel Schumacher. It is kind of crazy how blandly handsome he is though and I say this as no like backhanded compliment he just never really

stepped into the you know what you'd expect that person to eventually be like oh let me do some harder stuff maybe do some

grittier stuff he's on NCIS Los Angeles now yeah he's quietly just very rich because he's on that show he's on like the highest rated show

on television the Kim and LL Cool J just went there to hide. Is it third? I don't know. It might be number one. It had a season or two where it was number one. Linda Hunt has been on that show since the beginning.

I think she might have gotten written out. I can't remember. Really? I believe it's on its 10th season, which is the wildest thing. But I mean, Navy crimes in LA are a serious thing. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of them going on. Navy crimes? That's what the NCIS investigates, Navy crimes. Are you a serious thing. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of them going on. Wait, Navy crimes?

That's what the NCIS investigates, Navy crimes. Are you serious? Yeah. Naval Criminal Investigative Service. Oh, my God. I did not know that. It's the second spinoff of a spinoff. It's a spinoff of JAG.

There was JAG, which is about army lawyers. I know that show. And then they were like, this NCIS stuff's kind of interesting. Spun that off. It grew into being the number one show on television. And then they've done two satellite shows, including NCIS New Orleans, which has the weirdest cast of any procedural. Yeah, it's got Lucas Black, CCH Pounder, Scott Bakula. But that's not still on, is it?

It is. I say, I say, I say. It certainly is. I think it's all of that. It's just like, well, down here in New Orleans, it's a little different. It's all fan boat chases. Exactly. It's like like, well, down here in New Orleans, it's a little different. It's all fan boat chases. It's like, exactly.

It's like, there's been a Navy crime on us. I've never seen that. We solve our nautical crimes a little slower down here. Every episode, they think it's voodoo

for like 30 minutes. Can we rule it out? I remember like the poster for the first season, like announcing the show was like the four of them up on a balcony on Bourbon Street. Sure. Just watching the nightlife.

Now, NCIS is the only one that truly crushes in the ratings. Really? Los Angeles was never number one? No. Let's see what NCIS. What a brutal cell phone for me. It looks like its top position. Your punishment is to watch 10 episodes of NCIS.

Its top position was four. Yeah. Which is not bad. Yeah. From 2012 to 2014, it was the fourth most popular show on TV behind NCIS, The Big Bang Theory, and Sunday Night Football. God. CBS has four. Well, CBS is now in the tank.

CBS is finally, finally seeing the reels come on. But that's another story. Well, that's for another episode. I say, I say. You want to hear something crazy? Kyle Catlett, who is the actor who played young Arthur on the tick, little me,

when I was asking, he's like this weird, like, tested out of school at like 12, speaks 15 languages, has a black belt in karate, like polymath autodidact kit. And I asked him what made him want to become an actor. And he said, I was watching an episode of NCIS and I liked the people who sit behind the computer. Sure. And I thought that would be fun to do for a living. And it's like the only person I've ever heard of who wanted to get into acting.

I realized that that's my ceiling and that's what I'm going for. It wasn't even that. No, he said it with this like, that looked amazing. Like it was like eye-opening like watching Brando doing like on the waterfront or something. It was like they get to like deliver exposition. They just swivel around in a chair? That's really funny.

And he was like, someday I hope I get that part. He was like, the lead in a Jeunet movie, and he was in the Poltergeist remake. Like,

him being the tick was like, his least important credit at that point. Was he in Meek Mucks? He was not in Meek Mucks. The other one?

Thierry Legault. He was in, he was the, what's it, the prodigious T.S. Pivot? He's the titular character in that movie. Cool. The one that was not released because of Harvey Weinstein. Who? America's, he just loves going to live comedy. Sounds like a good case for NCIS New Orleans.

Yeah, he's America's greatest comedy show audience member. I don't know. I don't know. Who knows? Whatever, we're done. Thanks for coming, Rich. Thanks for having know. I don't know. Who knows? Whatever. We're done. Thanks for coming, Rich. Thanks for having me.

Oh, Dickie Lawson. Yeah, sad movie, good movie. Everyone should give it a second look because it's not what people say it is. That's my opinion too. 100%.

When are we going to experience the trolls? Well, I mean, hopefully by the time this episode comes out. I just, I don't know if you've been checking. Yeah. Now they're selling through early January.

They've extended it. So the experience goes on. The experience was supposed to last for three months and we're currently in year two. No, Donald Trump was elected in November 2016. That's when trolls the experience. Oh, boy. Oh, brother. David is whipping the ground with his microphone.

David has become such a physical comedian on this podcast. On this audio podcast. Yeah. He's putting on the Don Rickles bald cap. Yes. Well, DreamWorks Troll the Experience Trolls the Experience. It's just they took over some fucking storefront in Manhattan by force. It's been so long since I've experienced my trolls.

It's time. And maybe now we could like pair it up with, I mean, when does World Tour come out? Well, but the other question is, is how we get around the fact that we're going to be four grown men at a children's event. We have a very long text thread and we've already talked about all of this. The World Tour

is in April, so we'll see. If we get to 5,000 patrons, please get us to 5,000 patrons so that we can have the Trolls experience in Midtown Manhattan. But we've talked about this. I think what we would do is it is open during the week. We would pick a weekday. Right. We'll sneak in the back door. Afternoon.

Right. When there won't be a massive amount of children there and we will call in advance. And warn them. Weeks in advance, weeks in advance, and be like, we are four adult men. We're going to walk in. What if we do the Trolls experience and we come out and we're mad?

What if we come out, we're already troll-ing? Right, we're just like, what I liked about it is that I went mad. I'm mad, you see? We go like Victorian mad. Old-timey Batman villain mad. You're saying we go mad as a hat. Literally. Right. I'm up you see like we go like Victorian old old timey Batman villain you're saying we go

mad as a hatter literally right I'm up for it thank you all for listening Richard do you have anything specific you need to plug

I have a cover story about RuPaul that just came out like a month ago I think yeah so go read that on VanityFair.com

or buy it fantastic and people should read your books if they haven't already. Well, yeah. All we can do is wait. All we can do is wait

is the one book that I have and it's out in paperback. It's a lovely new cover. But you're working on a new one. Well, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew for Gudo for social media, Joe Bowen, and Pat Rollins for artwork, Lane Montgomery for our theme song. Go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts.

Next week, we have Beloved after like a five-year gap in his career. It's amazing. He only makes documentaries and TV stuff between 93 and 94. And then returns with just an easy project. Right. Just adapting the best novel easy project. Right. The only adaptation. Best novel ever written. Right. At the behest of

Oprah, who like calls him and demands that he return to fiction filmmaking. You can't not answer that call. No. It's a crazy blank check and it's kind of his blank check but really Oprah's blank check. Yeah. It's a movie she wills into existence.

So tune in next week for that with guests that we have not settled on yet because we're doing these out of order and way in advance. And as always, directly from the Trolls the Experience FAQ page. Will there be trolls at the experience? Yes. There will be animated, 3D, and in-person trolls at the experience. We're all going to die. We're going to die.

Oh, my God. The city of Philadelphia? You might have to go back and, like, add this in. Okay. Saturday Night Live. I remember seeing this when it aired and just being, before I saw Philadelphia, they did a fake commercial for Philadelphia action figures in courtroom play set. This is so my kind of bit.

And it is a great commercial. Wow. We got to find that. It is. It's really it's really good. And I saw it when I was, you know, when did Philadelphia come out? Ninety three. Yeah.

Yeah. So I was like 12 and I was like, that's that was my impression of Philadelphia long before I saw it. Any time any comedy show did that bit or like waiting for Guffman doing the like My Dinner with Andre play set. It's obviously just like Venn diagram of my interest. But through I'd say about 2006, anytime anyone did the bit which is here is merchandise made for a very, very uncommercial child-friendly film. It always killed me. It has like a courtroom playset with an ejection seat. That was the thing I remember the most.

And of course, we talk about, I did a merchandise spotlight in the Sons of the Lambs episode, and it made me realize, oh, the merchandise spotlights never work because they're me describing an entirely visual thing. Yes, exactly. They've never worked.

And now, once again, we're doing this. We're all just watching a video and talking about how funny it looks. On silent. Great stuff. Great click. Great segment for a great podcast that everybody likes.

Perfect podcast.