Blank Check with Griffin & David - Pokémon: Detective Pikachu with Dan Hernandez & Benji Samit

Episode Date: May 12, 2019

On the week of it's release in May of 2019, Blank Check invited screenwriters of Detective Pikachu, Dan Hernandez & Benji Samit, to offer a behind-the-scenes look into the development and writing process of this film! But what other media influenced elements of the story structure? What are Griffin and David's favorite Pokémon? How long did it take writer and director Steven E. de Souza to write Street Fighter? Together they examine fandom theory, world building, video game movies and explore the credit process and arbitration process. 

blank check with griffin and david blank check with griffin and david don't know what to say or to expect all you need to know is that the name of the show is blank check listen kid i know this much if your dad was, he would hug you so hard, your bones would podcast. Okay, great. There you go. Now, first question, I'm going hard. Did you guys write that line? No.

Wow. Here's my goal for this episode, okay? Find a line that pops? Like what? No, no, no. pops? Like what? No. No. No. I want to, along with everything else, have this episode be an exploration of

the process of writing a movie this big. Okay. Okay. Right? We're game for that. As much as we can talk about it without you guys jeopardizing your career. There may be some things where we're going to go, urgh. And you'll give the signal? But we're happy to do that. And Ben is very good at cutting out.

Okay, now Ben is pointing. He has a bell here. Cut out bell. Oh, this is a new thing that he's introducing as if I know what it is. We're not going to ring a cut out bell, Ben. It's going to be annoying. Now, let's make it clear. There's a reason why Ben might forget that he hasn't introduced the cut out bell before.

Benji, Dan, I'll introduce you properly in a second, but have you noticed you're just meeting Producer Ben for the first time? This is our first time, but it's been good so far. He doesn't usually have this hat on. I'm wearing a detective hat. A classic Sherlock Holmes deer stalker. He actually is wearing a deer stalker. I'm going to take a picture.

And he genuinely does have a cut it out bell. Look at me. Look at me. He doesn't remember who I am. So here's the thing. Producer Ben aka Fart Detective Pika Ben woke up this morning and doesn't remember anything. Why did I agree to this?

Wait a second. Even though I'm not involved I should have realized it would be annoying. But he's on the case. He's going to try to guess what happens in the movie because he hasn't seen it. So at certain points in the episode, he might guess what he thinks happens in the movie. Great. Great, cleanly set up. Okay, you set up that bit.

Should we disabuse him of the notion or should we just see what's wrong? Should we see what the movie that he creates is and see if it's better? Maybe this might be a good incubation tank. There are no bad ideas at this point. There are no bad ideas. Well, that's good because my ideas are always great. Very recently you told me to shave my head. That was a recent idea by him.

That's a good look for him. He thinks David would look great when he's fully shaved. You'd be pretty lethal. I think he would be pretty lethal. That would be like, oh. Right. I'd be like, I have like an Agent 47 vibe. Or I was going to say like Vince Vaughn in Cell Block.

Sure. 99. Right. I was thinking Vic Mackey on The Shield. Vic Mackey. Yeah, I've got a bit of a Mackey. Although Mackey is short, right? Or his chick is tall. I think got a bit of a Mackie. Although Mackie's short, right? Or is Chiklis tall?

I think he's kind of stocky short. Right, because that was sort of part of his appeal was like, you know, you don't think this guy, because he was the commish, he was like, you know, a total schlub. I remember being angry when he was cast that Jessica Alba was taller than him in the Fantastic Four group. Sure. Right. Which I thought was a fundamental

issue. Fair enough, fair enough. Hello everybody, this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin a fundamental issue. Fair enough. Fair enough. Hello, everybody. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. David. I'm David. It's a podcast about, usually, about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their career and are given a series of

blank checks to make whatever crazy passing project they want. Sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they bounce pika pika. But you have been on the trail of a movie for the last two years. Sure. Pretty much since it was announced. With increasing excitement. Yes.

Ang went through and found all of your tweets about this movie. I've got a lot. You can probably find them. This has been one of your most anticipated movies ever. I love Pokemon.

You love Pokemon. I'm a serious film critic and I love Pokemon. So we put it on the books that we would do a special episode for this. Yeah. And then, lo and behold, a couple months ago, I make a startling connection. Two guys I know are in fact two of the writers on Pokemon Detective Pikachu. Pokemon, colon, Detective Pikachu.

Yeah. So who do we got in the studio today? Dan Hernandez, Benji Samet, writers of Pokemon Detective Pikachu. We're going to find out how the polka sausage is made. Do people eat Pokemon? You know, that's one of those things that is a little bit glossed over in the world.

Because you're creating a world here. I prefer to think that everyone is a vegetarian. They just eat fruit. There's lots of big berries. There's various natural products. There'd be a lot of rice. It would be sort of like a grain-heavy diet. It's a grain.

Apricorns. In the video game, right? Those are huge. I never really figured out how to use those. There's always the guy who's like, I'll cook you the apricorns. And I Well, in the video game, right? Those are huge. Yeah. I never really figured out how to use those. There's always the guy who's like, I'll cook you the apricorns. And I'm like, I don't know. I can't be bothered with this. I'm not going to find 80 apricorns for this guy. But when you go deep into like, we had to do, you know, I mean, we knew Pokemon, okay.

But we went into the deep mythology. Do they give you like the big fucking thing? Do they give you like a leather? They were like, here's your Pokedex, boys. Good luck. They give you a Pokedex. Was Professor Oak an executive producer? Yes.

But do you have those like things? I don't know if they're like phone calls or meetings where you're like, okay, next item here. What do they eat? Or the sort of like, is it okay to do this? Is it not okay to do this? Like, are you constantly having to sort of run by things? Right. Yeah. How far up the like is it okay to do this? Is it not okay to do this? Like are you constantly having to sort of run by things? Right, yeah. How far up the tree does it have to go?

There's definitely like, okay, we're gonna float this idea off of, you know, the people in Japan at the Pokemon company. Right. You know, we had to write some emails explaining what we wanted to do. A few groveling emails. Waiting to see if we got the permission to do it. And, yeah. Sometimes we would and sometimes we would not. Right. Well, here's, wanted to do a few groveling emails waiting to see if we got the permission to do it and uh

yeah sometimes we would and sometimes we would not right well here's well no sorry what were you gonna say no it just it was it was an interesting to their great credit they really gave a shit you know like it wasn't just like who cares it wasn't like who cares do what you want they were they were like no no we have opinions not only about story elements, but the way that species of Pokemon would behave. It wasn't just like, yeah, do whatever you want. It would be like species individual. It would be like, no, no.

Squirtle doesn't do that. Wow. What doesn't Squirtle do? Squirtles don't strategize. Interesting. Why not? You couldn't have like a Squirtle do? Squirtles don't strategize. Interesting. Why not? You couldn't have like a Squirtle as a plot point.

Why wouldn't Squirtle strategize? Look, this has come straight from the top. Is it because they're babies? Is it that like baby Pokemon wouldn't, like they're little? There were some, you know, there were some. Let's go with that. Yeah, I guess. Was it for the Bulbasaur scene? Like it's like Bulbasaurs can be in a herd.

That's cool. It was more like in the process of kind of like... I really want to talk Pokemon. Let's get into it. We're going to go deep on this episode. Benji and I were responsible. One of the things that is really cool about what we got to do is we got to make a master list that was like, here are the Pokemon that we, you know, high in the sky way would want to use.

And that list was, you know, there want to use and that list was you know there were 100 on that list right and then from that list it got whittled down to however many it got whittled down to and so with each of those we would have to kind of explore the the nuance of what we were allowed to do what we weren't allowed to do which evolutions we were allowed to use and they were very accommodating generally but like they had opinions and it wasn't it was a very interesting way of writing because you know occasionally i i made the joke like it's not a real joke because it's true i was writing with one hand and like looking at the pokedex with the other and going god if only there were

a bioluminescent mushroom or something oh there, there is one. There's like, I mean, how many are there now? Like 600 or something? There's over 800 and now with the new generation, it's going to be 100 more. Wow. Have you guys kept up with it in every iteration? Like, what's your relationship with Pokemon throughout the years? Like, when you got the job writing this, did you

come back in and go like, okay, I'm 400 behind. I got to fill in this gap? I would say there was a little bit of gap filling in. I would need gap filling in. I'm not good on the later games. For sure. And we knew some of the bigger Pokemon from the later games. Just like the fan favorites and things like that.

But we did a deep dive on everything you know we went through every single pokemon you know all their evolutions their interactions their powers their you know yeah it was it was pretty intense well i mean i guess let's zoom out because i mean the first thing that david said to me when the movie ended when the credit started uh after just squealing at the Game Boy graphics. Yes, love the Game Boy graphics. And he turned to me and went, this is crazy that

this is what movies are now. I think I said movies are insane. Yeah, movies are insane now. And he meant it in every possible sense, but that's the really weird thing about this movie, which is a thoroughly weird movie. It is. And I say this as a positive but like so many times

watching it and you guys very generously helped us get in to see it early before because we knew you were only going to be in for a limited window of time. We went to the premiere we met Pikachu not bragging. A redacted bit. I asked him who his guys were. You asked Pikachu

who his guys were. David had a very Tupac-esque pose with the giant Pikachu. Times Square was very all eyes on me, which I appreciated. Which I'm pretty sure was just an inflatable Pikachu that I'm sure they always had, that they had then been like, can we get a giant hat and put it on it?

It was not like the hat was part of the inflation. No, that inflatable Pikachu had just been backstage at Kiss Me Cave. It's been there for like the hat was part of the inflation. No, that inflatable Pikachu had just been backstage at Kiss Me Cave. It's been there for like the last 20 productions at that theater. Right. It was crazy because it was the middle of Times Square was the yellow carpet. Yes. Which was, and then the premiere was at the AMC 25.

Where like one floor of this theater with 25 screens was just different screens. Yeah, they had it going in several screens. Yeah. It was intense. That was the theater that when I used to live in New York that I would go to just as a fan. Yeah, sure. So there was like a weird symmetry to having it at that theater. And then also being reminded how ridiculously designed that theater is.

It's labyrinth. It is like a labyrinthine nightmare. Because there's that weird secret escalator that goes to the secret two screens no one remembers. And they were sort of

trying to separate the two things like people who were trying to go to floors one through five one, three, four, five versus floor two which is just Detective Pikachu. It's like the exit was weird.

This is all really exciting stuff. It's like the exit was weird. This is all really exciting stuff. But it was just like having to walk through Times Square twice. It was a weird night for a weird movie. Right. Oh, yes. So this is the point. This is the point.

You guys aren't hired to adapt like Pokemon Red and Blue, right? Right. There's a clear thing that's just like, okay, Pokemon Go, there's this like revival, everyone's reminded of how popular this thing is. It's been around for 20 years now, it's at the generational level where you can make like you know, a four quadrant movie around it. And then the announcement is, it's Detective

Pikachu. They've like, they've won the rights for a live action Pokemon movie and it's Detective Pikachu. To which almost the rights for a live action Pokemon movie and Detective Pikachu. To which almost everyone said, what? Because that was a game that at this point had not been released anywhere other than Japan. We know because when we were starting to write it, they were like, here's the

translation of the video game script. And I took three years or two years of Japanese in college and it was completely useless. Because you useless in this particular because you're in this weird position where it's like you're adapting a game that there isn't the same kind of emotional affinity for as the property as a whole but that game now needs to function as an entryway to the possibility of any live action Pokemon movie that can exist under this thing. And it's a fucking insane concept.

Which is what if one Pikachu can talk? You're starting four levels deep. That's what Dave and I said to each other. You all know what Pokemon are. You all know who Pikachu is. You keep going down, down, down. And then it's like, so, Pikachu's a detective and he can talk. It would be like starting with Dr. Mario.

Yes, we're like breaking three sacrosanct rules of Pokemon to start the thing. Oh, if Bumblebee is the first soft reboot of the Michael Bay Transformers, this feels like it would be the fourth soft reboot. And it's like, you're starting

there. And the other thing is, Pokemon is a nuanced concept. It's a messy concept with a lot of tendrils and this movie just starts with the given that you just know all of it which like we're like yeah this is what these movies should be now because it's like this thing's been around for 20 years why are you going to see a pokemon movie if you don't know what pokemon is we're not going to name other live action video game adaptations that might have had a recent negatively received trailer i don't know what you're talking about no idea what movie i could be i could be talking

about any what if they rebrand him as a detective what if they're like we we got it we got it it's fine he's here's the detective hat it's on him you're satisfied now right he took the note you don't like the design he's constantly holding a magnifying glass. The design is better. Now his eyes look big. No, but like that, that feels like what Dave and I were saying was like how these IP movies, I feel like especially video game movies or like adaptations of kid cartoons used to be done through like the mid 2000s, which was like, well, you know, someone acquires the property and then all the executives go like, but this is dorky shit.

This is weird. This is weird. This is weird. Have them be transplanted to like Oakland, California. Right. And then, you know, it's just them like trying to like save the school or something. Co-jam and Earl are managing an apartment building. Right.

Right. Like that sort of concept of like you have to strip as much of the weird stuff away from it. You put them in like a co-op you know. And this movie just like starts with all the weird shit as a given. But also what you guys were saying about like

all the rules of what Pokemon can and can't do. There's like table setting in the first ten minutes of the movie of just like this is the ethical debate around pokemon yeah sure which i always feel has been like the weird underbelly that's like never discussed in the property and then this movie starts with like this is a city established on the idea that pokemon battling human relationships with pokemon are maybe a little skewed right yeah like

rhyme city is supposed to be like oh no it's no we don't fight we're all partners here right anyone can work man or pokemon even though pokemon can't speak somehow they can hold jobs how do you do like an interview with a pokemon if you're gonna like hire them to work at a coffee shop. They have a partner. They have a familiar. I know, I know. I get it, I get it. So at what point do you guys come in on this project? We came in pretty early on after it was announced. They were still trying to crack the story and what it was going to be. So we were pretty foundational to all of that. And I think to go off your point of like why detective pikachu

yeah as opposed to anything else in the pokemon universe i think you know from the top down when everyone made the decision to make a live action pokemon movie for the first time in over 20 years they wanted a reason for it to exist. They wanted it to be different. Because there have been a zillion of the animated films. That's right. And they didn't want to just tell the Red and Blue story again. Don't disrespect Red and Blue. No, it's a great story.

But it's been told a lot. And everyone knows Ash. They wanted the why now of the live action. And so they thought that Detective Pikachu would be a great way to do that. Having Rhyme City, the city where people and Pokemon are living

in harmony, seemed like a really cool live action thing to see. And so that's sort of why we did this. Yeah, right. I also feel like post-Endgame, people have been debating the concept of fanservice a lot.

And I've heard many people, I think, smartly make the point that it's like, is it really fanservice anymore if it's a thing where everyone's a fan now sure it's so a part of the monoculture right that like the fandom that you're like catering to is like it's just audience members 1.2 billion dollars worth of box office in the first three days and in the same way like uh someone on our reddit said that that pokemon is statistically the most successful media franchise of all time it It is. That's right. More than

Star Wars. Combine like the video games and the cartoons. Combine everything. It is the biggest media franchise. And you know, fan service, that's a I don't even really know what that means. I don't either. I think that's the point. Yeah. I completely agree. You know, when we sat down to write it, and you're

right, some of the things that you mentioned, you know, at a foundational level, when you're sitting to write yeah what you know is going to be a huge studio movie and you're sitting there going okay this isn't the obvious way into this story this is a diagonal story that you know it's not like the people are calling for detective Pikachu right so I think you have to then go a step back and say, okay, if I were just a viewer, what would I want from this story? And as a fan of Pokemon, what are the kinds of things I would want to see? And to me, one of the best moments in the movie is when they first arrive into the city. Oh, I can't agree more.

And you just, it is actually overwhelming how many Pokemon are in that thing. But it's like businessmen going about their day. I was like tapping Griffin. I was like, that's a Doduo. He kept pointing every single one. There are so many in that sequence, but it's just like, you know, like a barista

going to work and a guy doing construction. And that to me me in some small way we wanted to replicate the feeling of walking into Mos Eisley Cantina okay I was going to say I genuinely think that is the best of film Griffin just struck the table

I thought that was going to be my big money comparison and then of course you guys did it consciously where it's like no one's explaining how this all works it's just kind of like yeah it's like, no one's explaining how this all works. That was the thing. It's just kind of like, yeah, it's sort of chaos. There's a lot going on in the background. And you kind of just get the atmosphere. Isn't that the best way?

I mean, to me, I'm always the most intrigued when you're like, here's the world. Yeah, this guy's going to work with the Charmander. His tail's on fire. I don't know about the safety regulations. His tail is on fire. I don't know about the safety regulations. His tail is on fire. You know, it's fine. It's a given. It's a given.

You have to accept that as a giving. I also feel like a lot of times I will hear people when they're promoting their movie say, like, we want this to be, like, the most idly scene. And I'll see it and I'll be like, too much paprika. Like, you're putting too much on it. You're, like, you're calling your shot in advance. And the confidence of the most idly scene is that it's just, like, so overwhelming.

Yes. And it's so behavioral. And it's a given that you're just, like, I know there are answers for all of this. And they're not telling me any of it. And the confidence seeps through. I like in Mos Eisley also that they seem a little pissed off. Yeah. That they walk in.

They're kind of like, fuck are these? All right. Yeah. I guess you can't bring your droids. You know, there, there, there's just a sequence of people turning.

I'm, I know this is a podcast, but just like turning to look, you're like, who's that? And then turning back. Whatever. It doesn't matter.

I don't care. I've got my life to live. Right. I've got my weird alien. Right. You know, jazz thing. Yeah.

I've got to listen to jizz, which is, that's right. Bigger than it is just sort of like behavioral stuff there and uh you guys last night was you seeing the final uh movie for the first time you'd seen it with the effects unfinished the thing david and i kept saying to each other the entire time was this thing is so fucking beautiful looking it It looks great. It looks like a Michael Mann movie. Like, first of all, we've been recording Michael Mann episodes, so we've been watching the early ones. And it's got that same neon noir thing where it's like a lot of exterior night that's just lit by the street lamps and the signs.

Is it wet, too? It's wet. It's very noir-y. In the screenplay, if you were to read the screenplay, there is a direct reference to my favorite movie, The Third Man. Great movie. Which is my absolute apex of, to me,

just the number one movie ever made. I love that you wrote that into the Detective Pikachu script. It's when Detective Pikachu appears from the shadows. And we wanted to capture that moment when Harry Lyme comes out. And he has an Orson Welles-ian physique. He has sort of a round belly. As do I. So maybe that's

why I empathize. Hey, three great men. I mean, third man. Three great guys. What if that's what the third man was called? Three great guys. Third man is still Orson Welles in sort of like slightly husky mode, not yet at full barrel chest in.

Right, right. He's not at Snorlax. He's at Pikachu. Right. So sometimes you'll read a review that's like, these writers didn't even care. Right. Sure.

Just didn't give a shit about anything, put no thought into it whatsoever. And you're sitting there going like, you like the like, just didn't give a shit about anything. Put no thought into it whatsoever. And you're sitting there going like, you like the movie, you don't like the movie, whatever.

But like, the one thing that is definitely not true from, I would say, 99.9% of writers is that we just didn't give a fuck. And we were like,

yeah, whatever. It's just like a paycheck. Yeah, whatever. We're just gonna pass that check. I gotta go to, you know, like. Right, you just turned

in a script that was like, I don't know, Pikachu has a hat or something. He solves mystery is this okay yeah it seems fine whatever who cares you know that that's the kind of thing where i'm like no actually like you know when they're on the train and there's a video i was like well i really like the scene in total benji and i were talking about it felt very we love the scene in total recall where you know you sort of introduced to recall and it's like a kind of a weird concept that they very economically got a little intro video it's slightly right where you're like is this on the level this is weird i don't know but it's at the same time it's establishing very

important sort of pipe and yeah narrative stuff and and so all of those decisions like at a foundational level at the kind of to go back to the beginning of what we're talking about which is like these are all decisions and reference points that have to be kind of to go back to the beginning of what we were talking about, which is like, these are all decisions and reference points that have to be kind of made pretty early on. And then, of course, executed by, you know,

the director and everyone like that. But those were all things that we really did put a considerable amount of thought into. I mean, don't you think, Benji? Yeah, for sure. And yeah, I mean, the director, Rob Letterman,

and, you know, the DP and the editor, they made it look so good. Shot on 35mm. Yeah, shot on film. And I think that's a big part of why it feels like the old Michael Mann movies. And it just feels real. And the other thing, there were a couple things that stood out to me. I mean, one is digital cinematography has come a very long way, but certain like shadows and certain like aspects of light, it still has a hard time capturing.

In this movie, you have the like fucking third man thing where like when they're inside, the room is like lit by like the light peering through the slats of the window blinds, which might be purple or white. There's this scene, I think, where Justice Smith and Catherine Newton meet for the first time and they're lit by the flashing police lights. They're in the lobby of a building, but their faces keep on changing from red to blue.

It's very Blade Runner as well. But then the crazy thing is anytime there's a Pokemon in the scene it looks more tactile and you're like right when you're putting digital effects

into digital photography a lot of times it brings out the artificiality more. It flattens everything. And when you're putting the filters of like filmic quality

onto these CGI creations they feel very like in the world. They also it felt to me like watching it, like, this feels like they're using CGI to make them look like slightly more expressive 90s, like, animatronics.

Like, it felt very tactile, and they looked like early 90s, like, Henson Company, sort of like, like, it reminded me a lot of Where the Wild Things Are where on that it was like big physical suits

and then only the faces were CGI and this presumably was all CGI but the fur is like It must have been a freaking nightmare to make this

Insane I asked the editor last night who's awesome and I said you know because it was the first time we had met in person

we were talking on Twitter I said so what was the most difficult sequence to edit and he just looked at me it was the first time we had met in person we were talking on Twitter I said so what was the most difficult sequence to edit and he just looked at me and he was like every scene every scene

was the most difficult scene to edit were you guys on set at all where did it shoot in London in London we were not on set

because we were working a day on a TV show at the time so we were because you also you guys worked on the Texas Exile yes we worked on the critically beloved We were working a day on a TV show at the time. Okay. So we were. Because you also. You guys worked on the Tick season? Yes, we worked on the critically beloved season two of the Tick.

Amazon, what are you doing? What are you doing, Amazon? Come on, Amazon. What are you doing? I heard a bunch of light bulbs. Where are they? I know. Critically beloved would be 100% on Rotten Tomatoes if they had enough review.

Oh, really? It doesn't have enough review? Fuck that. I think, I don't want to say who, but maybe the network we're on did not submit it to enough critics for review. I did appreciate the reviewers that took the time to go and review it. Oh, me too. It felt like they really fought it out.

Yeah. But yes, a thing I know about you guys is that you certainly care a lot. Yes. And I feel like there are a lot of people in this industry who self-identify as like dorks or big fans. And then you meet them and they're like, you watched this once when you were like 12. Right. You don't like really care. And you guys are like incredibly genuine in your enthusiasm and your like love for these things.

Yes, we're nerds. You're a giant nerd. I'm a huge nerd. Because we were like DMing, we were both at, all three of us were at Wonderkind in Anaheim. Yep.

And we were like, when are we going to have time to like buy toys and stuff? Yeah. Well, I had to go pick up my commissions from Artist Alley. Right, right, right. Like I was like,

I like press and you guys were like trying to get in and we're like, is there any time we're all going to be free to be able to, like, shop together? And everyone else in, like, our groups, I'm sure you guys have the experience, too, when you do these things. You're just like, why would you go to the floor? Like, everyone else we're doing press with is just like, this is not my world. It looks like a shitshow out there.

And we're like, but, like, Sergio Aragones is out there. When am I going to not? Last time we were at Comic-Con, people were like, oh, what parties are you going to? And we're like, we're I going to not? Last time we were at Comic Con people were like oh what parties are you going to? And we're like we're not going to any parties. Chris Claremont's over there. I was going to sign

X-Men 182 for me. You got an Argonauts commission? I do have a Groot of Wanderer for Argonauts. Genuinely every time I hover around

because he's always at these conventions I hover around his booth and I'm too starstruck to actually step up and do it. My advice first of all he's extremely generous. Seems nice. I stand there for five minutes I'm too starstruck to actually step up and do it. My advice, first of all,

he's extremely generous. Seems nice. I stand there for five minutes watching him interact. I mean, if they're going to these things, they're probably ready to be nice. Yeah. My advice is to just do it

when you meet these people. Because I'm, the artist Jerry Robinson who created the Joker was at Comic-Con maybe six or seven years ago. And a lot of people actually weren't

aware of who he was he just had a little booth at artist alley and i and i said to my friends you know uh adventure i was like this is like a legend we have to get permission by this guy and he passed away about a year later and it was just every time i look at this batman that he drew for me i'm like i am so happy that i have this to commemorate this really important person. And I don't know. So that's so, yes, the geekdom is like earnestly come by and like honestly, you know, true. I mean, I sometimes, one of my frustrations about this industry is I do think that sometimes there is a little bit of, I don't know if disdain is the right word.

It's probably the right word for people that are like too passionate about a certain thing. I think so. Sure. And that to me, obviously you have to be like a normal person. You can't be, you know, so socially bereft that you're incapable of, you know, being professional. But I have always felt like no get the people that give a shit right? I think

there's this weird thing of people who don't give a shit hiring other people who don't give a shit because they think it's cooler to not give a shit and I feel like the first like six years of me like hitting the pavement trying to have a career I kept on being told your problem is you care too much.

I got that for six years as an actor and everything. You get too invested in this shit. You want these things too much. You care too much about the thing. And you see it that very often these jobs go to the people who are just like, I'm writing some fucking Pokemon movie. And you're like, why did you hire the guy

who hates the fact that he's being paid a million dollars to write the Pokemon movie? And if you were behind the scenes with some of the people that we've encountered, you would feel even more so that way. You'd be like, you don't even like the property that you're writing. You view it as like an albatross around your neck

that you have to do this job. Oh, I gotta write Thundercats. Right. Let someone else write Thundercats like that's a made-up one but thundercats yeah that's a good example of something like where there's definitely i'm sure dozens of people in hollywood who are like i know thundercats like backwards and forwards i grew up with it i have a take on it that can like exist in this era right this is what we're talking about with fan service like that's what fan services that sort of dismiss the thing of like right this is too into itself. Like,

why is it padding it? You know, like who cares about cap doing this in a vendor's name? Right. You know, and it's like,

no, people care. People have been putting their lives into it or whatever. Right. And I think there's a difference between it's

like, you know, what is fan service even anymore? You know, when this stuff is the monoculture, you know,

when it's not like you're catering to some small sliver, but it's the difference between, like, these things that are, like, genuine story payoffs that you've set up properly versus, like, victory lapping, where it's just, like, let's get, like, cheap pops

off of, like, showing you the thing you know. And I feel like anything that's properly integrated into a story, whether or not it satisfies the fans, then it's fucking, then that's storytelling. Then it works. Right, no, and I will say, to Legendary's credit, like, they came to us

because they knew we were nerds. Right. Sure. Like, who are the biggest nerds that we know? Right. And they're like a protective company who knew they didn't want

to hire assholes, I'm sure. Right. Right. No, and they, you know, we had worked with the producers on a movie in the past that didn't go. And, you know, a year later, they called us.

They remembered you. Yeah. You guys are the biggest nerds we know. And so, you know, here's the nerdiest property that we have for you. So you guys, you have many, many TV credits. This is your first produced feature film. Yes. And you got some pretty credits on this movie.

Because I know, like, credit arbitration can be a whole thing. But, and you got, you got some pretty credits on this movie. Because I know, like, credit arbitration can be a whole thing. Oh, it can. You guys get in a story and screenplay by, which is kind of like

the double whammy. Yeah. It was, it was definitely, it was a nerve-wracking process. Yeah. And I don't know if people necessarily know

about this process of WJ arbitration. And talk about it as much as you want to. I, I hope it's not too inside base. I guess this isn't

like if there ever were a place to go inside baseball. And people ask us and I want you guys also to define this. People have asked us and we promised to talk about

and never did the difference between the ampersand and the written out and. Oh, yeah. People don't know that. The ampersand is we're a writing team.

Right. Dan Hernandez and Benji Samet. Right. With an ampersand and we're a writing team. Dan Hernandez and Benji Samet with an ampersand. And the word and is people that came in before and after. Sort of had a separate writing experience. You guys are like Lucy and Psyduck, right?

We are Lucy and Psyduck. We are definitely Psyduck. Like you, Griffin, I have been accused of caring way too much. Many, many times. A really fun thing to hear that doesn't make you want to jump off of a cliff. Right. Especially when discussing an artistic, creative enterprise. Why do you care about this?

You go to these meetings with people who are like, oh, my God, I'm still so coked up from last night. Anyway, your problem is you care too much. I moved to L.A. already. Sorry I wanted to be good. Yeah. Well, that's that's why on literally day one that we started working on this movie, we came in and said the number two Pokemon in this movie is going to be Psyduck. Right. Of course. Because that's that is I mean, Dan, especially.

Right. It's always related. I relate to Psyduck. Yeah. I love Psyduck. He's anxious. You know, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if you guys have ever gone into something awful forums like I don't

know why you would have. But like they used him as an emoji. He was a big feel. Right, yeah. So those were the kind of decisions that we personally made early on that I think I'm the most proud of some of those things because we sort of pitched the potential of this character. And I think that you'll see from the

advertising and from the trailers and the response. He's the breakout character. But we sort of said at that initial meeting we think he can be the breakout character. Obviously Pikachu is going to be beloved. Right. So, you know,

yes, so that was... That's a long way of saying that credit arbitration can be very stressful. Let's talk about it as much as we can. All right, so let's talk about it. So basically, in any big... Not necessarily any big movie, but in many, many big movies. I would go so far as to say most. Yeah.

The credits that you see on the screen don't necessarily... In fact, do not represent the amount of writers who worked on the screen. Especially in a project like this. Especially in a project like this. A studio film like this usually has tens of writers. Tens of writers. So you'll see, but because of Writers Guild of America rules, on the screenplay credit, there can be up to three entities. So Benji and I count as

one entity. Sure, sure. So you can have three entities for that and two entities for the story credit. Right. And there's some different... Benji has like a masterful command of this sort of the nuance. Can you say the difference between story and screenplay? Yeah, what is

the difference between story and screenplay? Is is the difference between story and screenplay? Is it sort of created elements versus dialogue and scenes? Yeah, I mean, the screenplay is, I mean, I think the actual things that they base it off of are dialogue contributes to screenplay, the

unique scene structure within the scenes, some of the characterization stuff you know stuff like that the story is really yeah your big picture beat for beat some of the characters

um choosing which stuff from the game to adapt into the actual movie well that's the other weird thing with like story credits on something like this that's based off of something. It's like in a nightmare alternate

reality where you guys got pushed off this project early and most of your stuff was rewritten. There's an argument like, well, they were the guys who pushed for Psyduck, so they kind of get a story by credit because Psyduck has a large role. And that can happen sometimes. And so, you have

these two elements, story and screenplay, and in general, you will then, so you'll have the first writer, the first person that's going to put pen to paper. And then

they say, thank you screenwriter one uh great job you're either going to go do another job or we don't like you anymore so was that nicole perlman for this um in this case nicole perlman yeah she came in at the very beginning at the very beginning of the process and and then or relatively early on she then had to go back to Captain Marvel. She's one of those people who She's great. But she's sort of made an industry off of being the first

crack at a screenplay. She did the first Guardian stretch. She has a very full docket. She's jumping from one thing to another. She'll lay out the foundation for you. She did the first outline. She didn't even do the first screenplay.

Sure. And so, yeah, it was a little different. Right. I think originally she was going to do the first screenplay, but the process got slowed down. Whatever it was, she had to go to Marvel. She's working on like a Labyrinth movie. She's working on that Fast and Furious.

Yeah, right. But she's the person who might sort of identify the basic layout of the skeleton such as you know for example pikachu's a detective he's on the case so if you look at the credit she also has story credit with us for good reason yes so then you know you might go through if you're lucky you'll be the writer and you'll stay on the project from beginning to end but if other things happen or if you're busy or some of these screenwriters are so booked that they can give a dedicated amount of time and then they go on to another project so then other writers start to come in and so then

those writers begin to make changes and then you know and that can be anywhere from you know one you know two three two two dozen, two, three, two, two. Dozens. Dozens. Right. Depending on the project. And then there's stuff like. Or like rooms.

Yeah, rooms. They'll do a round table of just punch up jokes. Yeah. Or, you know, story breaking rooms. Which I just imagine people being like, what if he said like, that's got to hurt. And they were like, yeah, here's $20,000. And they just like throw it at him. It is kind of like that.

Not quite $20,000. He's standing right behind me, isn't he? And that's 15. But if you looked at some of the names who pitch jokes on these movies, I won't say it, but really genius people. I mean, amazing people. Well, Patton Oswalt has been very open about the fact

that that was his main income for 15 or 20 years before he really kind of broke into the mainstream as a stand-up. Scott Ackerman's another one who would just... Right, we're always in the rooms for this stuff. So there's a lot of people who are absolutely like geniuses who are coming in and doing this. And so now all of those people have to be taken into consideration. And then, you know, if you have a director who's writing, the director is also working on this. Sure. In this case, Rob did a bunch of writing for this movie.

Right. And deservedly got credit. So now, at the end of this whole process, you know, we wrote this movie two years ago. Over two years. Over two years ago now. They're like, okay, we need to figure out who gets what credit on this movie and that process is done through the Writers Guild of America

arbitration so basically you get the final shooting draft and you sort of have to make a legal argument in a way the studio makes a recommendation of who they think should get credit

sure and then you know you can protest it yeah um if you don't think that it's right representative of the what the credit should be right and you know if there's a protest you don't know who triggered the protest or you know and there's certain things that trigger automatic right arbitration like in this case we were we knew we were going to have an arbitration because when the director is a writer, it's an automatic arbitration. Sure. Because they want to make sure that the director,

not in this case, but sometimes the director might want to just get the credit for everything. Right. Sometimes the director will tweak a couple lines and say that I'm a writer on it too. And in the old days, I think that this was a huge problem. Like in the studio days. So yeah,

they send you the final script and they also send you every draft from along the way and you read through everything and write a statement. That must be the worst job is the reader at the WGA who has to read through like, and write a statement arguing your case. Yeah, I mean, that must be the worst job, is the reader at the WGA who has to read through like 800 drafts and underline all the differences.

Well, that's exactly right. And so then it goes to a panel of three arbiters who are other writers that have been through this process, and they do their best to place authorship on who did the most work. Right. And there are certain numerical thresholds that you have to hit, which is kind of, to me, like amorphous.

And, you know, it's like the difference between 33% and 32%. Right. You know, I've made the joke occasionally, like when I saw Captain Marvel, I was like, well, every stunt cat was credited Captain Marvel, I was like, well, every stunt cat was credited by name. It was like Nova and Luna and Scratchy. Yeah.

But probably someone who wrote 25%. Right. Or theoretically, someone who had written 25% of that movie would have their name literally not on the movie. Right. And there are weird things where sometimes, you know, they bring in a writer to rewrite something just because they're like, we need another pass at this.

But sometimes they're bringing people in as like a skill shooter where they're like, the villain isn't working. Right. Or we just need the dialogue tightened up or the story beats aren't working. That makes no sense. But sometimes depending on how much of an influence that one element has someone could get a disproportionate credit on the film because their pass ended up even though it was only meant to affect the one thing yeah so you have all of these different factors and then ultimately they make a

determination and that determination is what you see on the on the movie in our case we felt very happy that we got the first position on the screenplay and the story because we felt like we were there at the beginning of this process and for better or worse, if you like the movie, that's very much on us and if you hate it, that's on us too. But you guys put a lot of the meat

on those bones. I would say. I mean, I think the process worked. The arbitration, in my opinion, was fair and gave credit to the right people. You know, I think us and Rob and Derek, the credited screenwriters, did the bulk of the screenplay. And I think a few of the other writers that didn't end up getting credit,

it was more targeted stuff, like you said. And I don't think they were expecting credit. There is a debate in writer's circles whether people who don't make their names for the screenplay or the story deserve an additional writing material credit. Which you see in animation, which is not under WGA jurisdiction. Yeah, there's an additional writing credit. Sure. Which you see in animation, which is not under WGA jurisdiction.

Yeah, there's an additional writing credit. Yeah. And I think it kind of makes sense. Yeah, it seems like it would make good sense because it's also like, you have a lot of people, there were so many of the most successful screenwriters in Hollywood

have no credits to their name. Right. And it's like within the industry, they get hired a lot because people know that they did the work on these things, but they don't have anything they can actually sort of cite as a produced work where their name was on it.

Right. And as you know, in TV, it's so different. Like, you know, on The Tick, all of the writers were working on everything. Right, right. TV is its own piece. Everyone sort of gets their episode. But we all get a credit.

You know, like we're consulting producers on every episode of season two. Right. TV is its own piece. Everyone sort of gets their episode. We're consulting producers on every episode of season two. Right. And different writers get different producer credits or staff writer or story editor. Right. And you guys have your episode. Episode two is your episode quote unquote, but that doesn't imply

that you guys wrote that entire episode on your own or that you didn't work on any other episodes. Correct. That's right. So I personally am in favor of additional writing material credit. I think there are some legitimate reasons why some people are against it. And I understand those reasons,

but there is something to me that's a little icky that someone can work so hard on something. Yeah, that can write lines that people say in the movie and don't get any recognition for it. But, you know, in my opinion, it's like the best process we have at this time.

Sure. And not to say that it's perfect. And Benji and I have actually both been arbiters. Well, it was the second we won our arbitration, the guild immediately called us and they're like, you want to do it now? While you're feeling good, hey, can we get you to do it?

But it was good that we did it because it was really interesting to be on that side of things. And you do realize once you are in the position of making a determination, we took it extremely seriously. And you realize that actually it is best to have fellow writers adjudicating this kind of thing because there are some nuances that other people who aren't in it in that way might not necessarily pick up. Like if you had like a lawyer do it.

Yeah, of course. And aside from the credits and everything, it's also like that's the line between whether or not you're potentially in line for residuals and everything, right? also like, that's the line between whether or not you're potentially in line for residuals and everything, right? Yeah. Which is huge. Humongous. Whether or not you have an ongoing financial stake in the movie.

Right. So for the five of you who were hoping for an in-depth exploration of the credits process, we got you, baby. On our Detective Pikachu episode. We got you. People weren't expecting that. I think it's really interesting, personally. I mean, I think that the process of,

I do think that the process of putting a movie like this together, just in its DNA, is so radically different from someone who is making an independent movie, who's, you know, got their script that they're championing for years. This is not a blacklist script. This is not a blacklist script. This is not a blacklist script.

We have friends who are putting together the financing for their movies and trying desperately to get there. Going to Europe and talking to shakes or whatever. This was on day one of us writing. We were already meeting with concept artists and storyboard people discussing scenes.

It was going to get made no matter what. There are many plates being spun. We're pitching ideas for scenes that they start animating animatics for without us even having dialogue written for it. It's a speeding train, and it's like, if you guys can't stay on,

then they're going to find someone else to conduct it. It's going to keep moving. It's interesting. I think that once you have a lot of different experiences, Benji and I have been very fortunate in the sense that we've worked on single cam television, we've worked on multi-cam television,

we've worked on big studio movies, we've worked on smaller movies, we've had animated scripts, you know, like, so we've been fortunate to, like, get to play in a lot of different realms and you do realize that while

the skills are very similar and can be you know certain things are applicable to everything there are nuances to each of those things that are kind of you have to kind of learn the the intricacies of them in order to i think be successful so you guys know, you know, here's the Pokemon universe is being given to you as a given,

which is like, maybe like 80% of the world building, you know? I mean, certainly the setting, the universe your film is taking place in,

the majority of the supporting cast, that stuff's being like passed over to you and it's like, you have to pick which elements you have to sort of curate from here.

And then there's the video game, which in terms of like, it's not a very straight adaptation of the video game, it's like you have to pick which elements you have to sort of curate from here and then there's the video game which in terms of like it's not a very straight adaptation of the video game it's the like pikachu can talk he's a detective it's a mystery partnership with a human but the video game is set in rhyme city yeah it's set in rhyme city the the where and it's the same thing of like people are out with their pokemons and yeah it was a bit of a challenge at first because yes like the entire universe of pokemon is a given that's being handed to us but because this is such a weird side where like we're now writing a script where like that's a pokemon movie where we can't really use pokeballs right right there's no battling there's no trainers like it is so a

lot of like the the obvious choices of things to like the state the old standbys yes there's no battling there's no trainers like it is so a lot of like the obvious choices of things like the old standbys yes there's no team rocket we couldn't do that right I've sometimes compared it

to writing a Star Wars movie without a lightsaber or the force it kind of feels like right it's like a Star Wars movie if like what if you went to Masai's cantina and there was like

a sort of one to one mystery to deal with and we just stay there and like Han Solo like got a drink and left. And you don't follow him. And Jedi's never showed up. I'll say this too.

Watching it, I was like, this is what I kind of want the Star Wars standalone films to feel like. I know. It's just a sandbox. And I just interviewed the Russo brothers about Avengers, and I asked them,

couldn't Marvel make a $40 million movie? Isn't that possible possible and they were like obviously theoretically maybe you know but like they weren't like yeah we totally want to do that but you could make a ground level movie in any of these sort of I feel like that's what the Disney Plus series are going to end

that's what Shazam was which was like very satisfying for that exact reason I have felt the same way like there was a series of books when I was growing up like Tales from Mos Eisley

Cantina yes the Star Wars EU books and it was like what's the bartender up to while you know

Han Solo is doing and yeah I would watch that I have always I have always felt like there's like Star Wars for instance

yeah it does seem like there's room Star Wars, for instance. Yeah. It does seem like there's room in the Star Wars universe to just have like a horror movie. Oh, 100%. The Star Wars horror movie. 100%. The Star Wars crime movie. Right. Like what, you know, and I don't know if you guys remember, but do you remember like before

Disney bought Star Wars that George Lucas had been like, we've commissioned 70 scripts of the Star Wars show. Yes, yes. And it's going to be the wire of Star Wars. Right. And I was so pumped. I was like, yes.

Where the fuck is that? Where the fuck is the wire of Star Wars? I want that. Right. Not to say I don't look up what it was going to be called. I do. I do love, you know,

I mean, as a fan, like I'm in on it, I'm going to see it. I love everything, but it does sometimes feel like there is room within some of these bigger franchises to like kind of do something a little weird. Right.

It is incredibly weird though, that this is the starting point for like the live action iteration. And you go like, okay, so you're not making a red and blue movie. You're not adapting the Ash story again. Then like the B or the C would be like, you have to make a new emotional story about a Pokemon trainer.

And then you guys moved to like 27. You moved off of the alphabet and into numbers. So what we tried to do, since we couldn't do Pokeballs or trainers or any of that stuff, we thought about what is something from the Pokemon universe that we can carry over. And what we focused in on was the concept of evolution. Which I think is really smart. Which is, you know, that's inherent to Pokemon. Part of the Pokemon world.

And so we wanted to write something about, like, what does it mean to evolve? Like, not just a Pokemon evolving, but can people evolve? Can our relationships evolve? So that was sort of our day one starting point that we worked off of but that also brings in the whole interesting thing about the movie like I when I was like fucking 20 and dumb I like stayed up until like six o'clock in the morning I was supposed to know when you're 30 and 30 and right but I stayed up until like six o'clock in the morning with my

friend John writing a fucking Pokemon pitch that was like our fucking insane edgy violent Pokemon pitch that was that's awful yes I'm sure it was you should have gone to jail

I was arrested I was arrested briefly but it was the oh the Pokemon like snap and they turn against the humans and that becomes like

a zombie movie with the Pokemon because I was so obsessed I'm mad at you for even writing this pitch I was 20 I think it's great when I was so obsessed. I'm mad at you for even writing this pitch. I was 20! I think it's great. When I was in college, I would get drunk and write Star Trek

erotica. It was like that. It was like that. Not in earnest, but like my friends would provoke me and be like, come on, do it. Right, because I was so fascinated by like the weird underbelly of like the Pokemon franchise never talks about how

this is kind of a weird abusive relationship between the humans and the pokemon sometimes the games would but then it would always be a villain who was saying these things and it would turn out he had like some ulterior motive and right sort of forget about it but this movie from the get-go like even in what you're talking about the relationship with evolution it's like this uneasy thing between the humans and the pokemon where it's like they have this dominance but the humans also sort of like feel like uh insignificant next to the pokemon because they have the ability to grow in this way and in that like verhoeven like back a train video you explain the thing of how like uh uh throughout history you see the hieroglyphics.

Yeah, yeah. Where it's like humans have had this weird, like, transactional, like, using their powers relationship. Is that a Zatu or whatever it's called in the Egyptian cave painting? And people are trying to find the Mew Bones because they're like, that's probably the key to this whole thing. It was Mew Bones. Mew Bones. Oh, shit. I love bones.

Poke Bones. Poke Bones. Damn. Ancient Poke B bones! Oh, shit! I love bones! Poke bones? Poke bones. Damn. Ancient poke bones. Oh, shit. Dusty-ass bones. The progenitor bones. So, yeah, I mean, that was something that we sort of had to make some decisions about as screenwriters.

And what we settled on, which I actually think is one of the best parts of the movie is this idea that the pokemon have an emotional understanding of right of their partner yeah that always felt kind of true to it has to be right right or right or wrong i do feel that i have that with my dog uh-huh right i feel that my dog has an innate understanding of of like yes and then sometimes dogs don't obey you as Pokemon won't obey you. I think it goes, yeah, it's like that, but even further in all the Pokemon anime and games,

it's like, right. There is a communication between trainers and their Pokemon. Right. And yeah, we just wanted to explore that and, and take it further and make it a little bit more explicit that there is actually, while you are choosing a Pokemon, that they also have to choose you.

Right, right. Which I think is something that... That's a line you have in that opening sort of scene where Justice Smith is hunting a Cubone. Not hunting, wrong word. Chasing a Cubone. And you just have that line. It's sort of a tossed-off line,

but it kind of settles a lot of the weird questions of the whole relationship. But you have the pokeball, you have them in the field. Like you kind of hit like some of the familiar beats of like, this is the live action

Game Boy adaptation in your mind. Wandering in the grass. Yeah. Right. I don't know if you guys know this. I auditioned for that role. He did.

He auditioned for the, the friend. The Karen Soni role. Right, right. Who gets 90% of the roles I audition for. Deservedly so. Well, he's very good. He's a for the Frank. The Karen Soni role. Right, right. Who gets 90% of the roles I audition for. Deservedly so. Well, he's very good. He's a very good actor.

But the sides that I got, because I showed this to David, because I wanted to make David proud, that I'd gotten a Detective Pikachu audition. The sides for this audition, they tried to rewrite them, disguise them, so that you wouldn't know that it was a Pokemon edition so they changed it all to dog related nouns

yeah Pokemon were called pooches yeah and instead of Pokeball it was baseball you have to throw a baseball at the pooch actually

the truth is out now I guess we actually wrote pooches what? we wrote detective pooch detective po. We wrote detective pooch. Detective pooch. You wrote detective pooch? We had a pooch pitch, and this was all grafted on after the fact.

And they were like, this could very quickly become a Pokemon script. I don't know if you guys know. Would you guys be comfortable with that? And we were like, I've never, I'm not familiar. Yeah, you wrote this script about asshole kids throwing baseballs at dogs. Maybe this could become. That was the other thing the implication was so weird because it was like look at that dog out there in the field here throw a baseball

i think the thing that you guys do not touch on that would be the hardest for any movie to touch on is the fact that in the game you can just put like hundreds of pokemon into a computer and never think about them yes i don't know what that life is like for a Pokemon. You know, it's fine when you have your team and you're walking around, but then when you're just catching things, yeah, put them in the computer, whatever. I don't care.

I never want to think about them. I got another Rattata, who cares? The ball logic is, like, tough. Like, it's, like, fun to watch the one ball scene at the beginning, but then I'm like, I'm glad we're spinning this movie away from the balls. Because I just start to go, like, is it like

I dream of Genie like we cut inside are they like lounging on a couch I actually think there's a lot of interesting stuff to be done

with that so I sort of you know we'll see if that gets explored in the future in some way but that yeah

I mean yeah no I mean I personally like to think that there is something luxurious inside there sure like a think that there is something luxurious inside there that it's like the TARDIS it's huge inside

and they live happy lives I think that's the best way to think about it but I also think it's one of those things in live action not that they, as you said shouldn't touch it in other live action Pokemon of which I assume they'll now be 97 but there is like something different, you gotta catch all those films in live action Pokemon, of which I assume there will now be 97. But there is something different. You've got to catch all those films.

In live action versus animation where if you have a dude walking around with a belt with six balls on it, every step he's taking, you're like, so there's a Pidgeot right in there? That guy has a sea lizard? Wait, what?

I do think that for people like my mom, that was one good thing about doing it as Detective Pikachu in this context because there is some familiarity that many people are bringing to this that they're like, yeah, they keep them in the balls and they fight. Right. It's fine. But there are people that have no context for this and are like, wait, what's going on? Do we have to call the ASPCA or the PSPCA?

I don't know. The other thing that's kind of nice, you guys talk about the relationship between the humans and the Pokemon and everything. It reminded me of his dark materials, like the weird sort of Damon thing. Yeah, yeah, right. Of when you have the early scene with Ken Watanabe who is fucking killing it in this movie my fate one of my very favorite actors

oh and I did not get to talk to him at the premiere last night and I was he there I would have he was there on the red carpet or the yellow carpet but yeah I was like next to him and I was like almost like hey and then it was and then he was gone and it was like as David said he wears the shit out of Fedora in this movie he is so good looking

he is so handsome he's a very striking when I saw him in person I was like oh shit the last samurai yeah

he's a hottie he is I mean he's very good in almost anything he does he was on stage in the in almost anything he does. You know, he was on stage

and the King and I, you know, got a Tony and I, like he can do anything, but in Last Samurai, the, he like so thoroughly embarrasses Tom Cruise

on screen where he's like, here is a charismatic performance. I love Tom Cruise. What are you talking about? Last Samurai is not his strongest performance in my opinion.

No, no. Um, but like that scene where Ken Watanabe is like doing a play for people in the last Samurai

yes right before the ninja attack exactly and he's like you're like oh my god this guy is like face meltingly charismatic

can I you gonna defend Tommy can I defend Tommy sake for one second remember when he's like hammering on the floor there's a moment

in that same sequence yes where at the end of it and I think it's beautifully shot i love the way it's a good looking part is that move that whole movie is shot beautifully and there's a scene at the end of the ninja attack where ken watanabe and tom cruise are standing back to back oh yeah at the end and they're just like in the you know in the in the midst of like battle fury right you know and they kind of look at each other and they understand

all of a sudden they understand each other that is some good face acting from Tom Cruise that is that's some fine he's a great face actor

he's a great face actor I mean I want to rewatch the movie anyway it's been too long I'll come back for that one please let me come back for that one because I've studied

for our Zwick series yeah for the Zwick yes I'll come back for the Zwick let me come back for that one because i have studied our zwick series yeah for the zwick yes i will come back for the zwick um i just i just like in that scene the dynamic of like here's this like conversation happening between two humans and then every once in a while you cut out to like a two shot yeah right and you're like and he's like kind of mirroring you know like emotionally one of the snubbull is like he's like a like a i don't know like a german shepherd or something,

right? Like how a cop might have like an animal that, you know, is sort of like almost his little tough guy. But because they're otherworldly, there is that thing of just like, you know, with dogs,

we're like, do they get, like, I want to believe my dog, like, and I are on the same level, but they don't have the same sort of facial expressiveness to know that they totally get what's going on.

And the Pokemon in this, you're like, you can tell which Pokemon get it and which ones don't have the same sort of facial expressiveness to know that they totally get what's going on. And the Pokemon in this, you're like, you can tell which Pokemon get it and which ones don't. You can tell which ones are keyed in and which ones aren't, which ones are kind of like wild and which ones are sort of more sophisticated. This is another thing I loved, was just like anytime you have these sort of scenes of the city, I mean, especially the first scene where he gets off the train.

But like, I feel like movies like this, they get so drunk with the potential of like, we can do anything, that it just becomes like fucking noise. And watching this, there's like a weird amount of restraint in how the Pokemon are animated, where some of them are just like sitting on a bench.

There's when he checks into, or where is it? At his dad's apartment. His dad's apartment, right. And there's the one against the glass and it's barely moving. And it's like, they're animating these things like they could be practical. They're not over animating them because they can. And so you just have these little things where just like the flicking of like eyelids or like a little muscle spasm.

I think, you know, the guiding principle from Rob at the very beginning was just like, let's make it real. Yeah. Let's make it real. And yeah, so it's not like overly flashy or silly or like what, you know, what is the thing that this Pokemon would be doing to like appeal to little kids the most? Like it's just, no, if there was really a lizard Pokemon, it would probably just be stuck to a window like that. It feels like it's a given, and it makes it, like, kind of, I would imagine, a slightly easier buy-in for people who aren't, like, invested in Pokemon.

Because the movie just treats it like, this is just, like, a thing, and you gotta roll with it. Yeah. Sure. But then also, Mewtwo is in this movie. Right. Which is, like, something where it's, like... And it opens with Mewtwo. Exactly.

Where, like, this is more, like, deeper lore. Like, you should maybe know what we're talking about to understand this. I feel like that's bolder. That's a little riskier. Right. I don't know. I mean, it was, you know, Mewtwo was one of the harder elements to balance when writing it. And I think that that was something that everyone worked on throughout the entire process of the movie.

Because it does require a little bit of deeper lore, and it does require an understanding that there are, like, I don't know, tiers of Pokemon that it's like, well, this one is... There's a lot of Pikachus out there. There's only one Mewtwo. Right, there's only one Mewtwo. It's sort of...

It's man-made. It's more powerful than anyone else. It's kind of a person. It can, like, talk, you know. It's sort of man-made. It's more powerful than anyone else. It's kind of a person. It can talk. It powers. It makes smoke monsters. And the smoke monsters get real big and they fight for the Mewtwo. That's the power.

No. I was just guessing. It's just like a psychic Pokemon. It can terrorize your brain. I will say, there is a your brain like Freddy Krueger? Sure There is a lot of gas in this movie Little vials of purple gas

Yeah, they kind of charge you up There's like an evil drug on the streets There's potions Like weaponized potions Love a good potion Rita Ora plays a scientist. Uh-huh. I'm trying to think what else is going on in this one.

There's also a moment, my favorite Pokemon, very well represented in this movie, Ditto. Yes. Ditto rules. But the rules of Ditto are, you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like, yeah. I mean, Ditto is sort of, when they introduced Ditto in the game, you're like, wait, is this allowed? Ditto can just be anything? Right.

I started pumping my fists at the Ditto reveal. But it also was like, you need to go into the movie knowing that Ditto exists. You have the one shot of Ditto earlier. Yes. This is releasing well after the movie Ditto. It'll come out. So don't worry about it. It still functions on a story level,

but I'm saying the moment where he says, it's a ditto, before the ditto reveals itself, I was cheering. Yeah, he was cheering. But my mom would be like, what's a ditto? And I'd be like,

just watch, just watch. You'll see what a ditto is. You know, it's always a balance because when you write, I would say in general, there's a tendency in the first screenplays to over-explain. Because you are thinking about those sorts of things when you're writing it, which is like, well, we need to explain what the ditto is, and we need to explain. You're like, who broke ground on Rhyme City?

What company did they use? Which construct? Did they use what company did they use? Yeah. Which construct, you know, so you're, they use Pokemon. Did they use Pokemon? Actually in the,

there's a little bit of the movie, but there was like in the original screenplay, like, like girders doing a lot of, of. Yeah. Instruction, you know, like we really saw like.

Very Flintstones. It was very Flintstones. It was like, what is the infrastructure? How do they build? So there's a tendency to go into it. And then I think that when the director or whoever is watching the movie, sometimes the things that you think are important prove not to be important.

We certainly found that on the tick. Yes. I mean, I'm sure that you probably saw some of the drafts and process. And then when you see the finished episodes you're like we you know just for example like what's the clue gonna be is it gonna be a shoe is it gonna be a gas right is it gonna be this is it gonna be glasses is it gonna be you know a truck is it gonna be whatever and so and what you realize i felt when i was watching the season i was kind of like you know what we spent so much time picking the clue picking this fucking clue yeah and it literally did not matter right then ben may feel differently the creator of the tick but i felt like yes it worked but but also like the uh the proportion of time spent to, like, the amount of time spent on that shoe.

Right. No, I remember being in the room, I think, when the shoe was being argued for, like, hours and hours and hours. Yeah. Right. So I think sometimes when that happens, when you start to go to the edit, You start to be like, you know what? Maybe there's some people that are going to be confused by Ditto, but maybe most people are going to be like, I don't know. He's ShapeShift.

We know what a ShapeShift is. Okay. By the time you get to that, people are already on board with so much craziness in this movie that it's just like, it's a Ditto. You're either already well on board or they already lost you.

It's sort of like visually established. Yeah. So, you know... I want to make it clear. I was fully on board. No, I'm glad. No, but it is true. You're not wrong. I mean, there's a lot of moments like that in the movie where you kind of just got to go with it. And I think

that some people will be able to and some people will not. And that's maybe okay. But also for a property this big, it's not like, you know, you can presume that a lot of the audience is going to have some base knowledge, you know? Yeah.

That's not like an insane assumption to be like, the 151 are in the cultural vernacular enough, the originals. No, it's someone like ditto is such a fan favorite right that yeah you you think that most people would have some idea about at least if you're a any amount of a fan i'll tell you a thing i didn't have an idea of until i watched the movie i am sexually attracted to women with ditto eyes oh Oh, yeah. I did not know that was going to be a thing. Suki Waterhouse with little beady eyes. Catherine Newton.

I mean, even... Chris Gere. Did we see Chris Gere with ditto eyes? Maybe not. No. Oh, actually, no, we did. We did. I was into that.

I was into any human form with the ditto eyes. I love that. That's a brave admission. It's a brave hockey. For sure. One issue, I think you might be in trouble I don't think you're

going to find a ditto-eyed person in the real world oh you think in the real hey listen you can make it happen there's body mods now that's true maybe like some

augmented reality if you pay enough you can find it I have a beautiful girlfriend with beautiful metal plated eyes named TC-14

I got no complaints on my end. Now in this movie Pikachu's a detective. Right. This is an important thing that we haven't really discussed. Well he has a hat.

He has a hat. He has a little hat and he's on the case. He likes coffee. He likes clues. Loves clues. He's got a thirst for solving a case

I guess. Loves it. He's voiced by Ryan Reynolds. Did you have any concept of like what kind of personality you wanted the act, like when you're writing it, like,

cause obviously you're not writing it with the knowledge that like, this is a Ryan Reynolds role. Right. It was pre Ryan Reynolds being involved. No, I think this is where we were really inspired by like classic noir. Right. Story.

Like we wanted him to feel like a, you know, middle-aged noir detective. Sure. Like John Pulido in The Big Lebowski. Right. That was your specific...

That was a super deep cut. Let's just think about him. No, like Fred McMurray. One of those guys. One of those tall drinks of water. I have been obsessively reading Raymond Chandler. Sure.

And I actually really love the original radio shows of Philip Marlowe, Mr. Interesting. With a guy named Gerald Moore, who was, it's actually quite, well, okay. It is probably not interesting, but it's very interesting to me, which is they tried to do this Philip Marlowe show with this guy Van Heflin. They did the pilot episode. They did pilots of radio shows.

The episode is called Red Wind. It's okay. It's fine. It's pretty good. It's by the numbers. A year later, they were like, you know what? Let's try this again. We're going to get this guy, Gerald Moore. We're going to do the same pilot.

Wow. So you can actually do a comparison of the two pilots of this episode. The exact same script. The exact same script. It's maybe a little different, but it's the same story. It's called Red Wind. And when you listen to the difference between these two guys, it is night and day.

This guy, Joe Moore, was incredible. And so I was really, like at night, immersing myself in kind of noir, classic noir from 49, 50, these books. And so when you go deep into that, or even things like the narration in Blade Runner, in the original cut, not in the director's cut. Not that it's... I actually prefer the director's cut, but just trying to get a sense of these classic... Eddie Valiant in Roger Rabbit being a great example and probably maybe my favorite example.

I didn't even think of Roger Rabbit. That's huge, right? Because that's also a noir movie set in a completely bananas world. It's a very bright noir movie. Yes. And I think that and that's really interesting that, you know, noir is sort of an attitude in some ways.

And there are a few PG noir films which this like proudly wears. Even Roger Rabbit is a little harder edged. No question. I would say a lot harder edged. No question. But what I think is great about, first of all, Bob Hoskins was like. He is so fucking dialed into that performance.

He should have won six Oscars that year. No one gave that performance enough credit. Isn't it amazing when you look back at some of these performances that weren't lauded. Yeah. And you're like, actually, the degree of difficulty in what this man was doing was impossibly high. He was working before anyone was used to the sort of tennis ball acting,

too. He essentially created the process for an actor of doing all of that when they didn't understand what the reference points were. And, like, the guys who were, like,

editing that movie would say, like, it was incredible. He would, like, look at Roger Rabbit. He would, like, turn around and, like,

do some business in the office. Right. And then he would, like at Roger Rabbit he would like turn around and like do some business in the office and then he would like find the exact point where Roger Rabbit would have traveled you know independently

without them guiding him that seems insane to me and by the way Justice Smith who is the protagonist who's you know very charming

he's a great actor and he does a very he does an amazing job of having chemistry with and you know how difficult it is yes right you know He's a great actor, and he does a very, he does an amazing job of having chemistry with, and you know how difficult it is. Oh, it must have been such a pain. Right.

Is he holding like a little doll? Like, is there a thing? In some shots, they had like a doll, but sometimes it was just a tennis ball. And there's someone playing the part on set or doing the dialogue off camera, but it isn't Ryan Reynolds. I mean, it's this weird thing of having to do chemistry like siloed as two separate performances that have to cut together.

So in Eddie Valiant's case, what I think is so brilliant about that movie, and it's one of my very favorite movies, is the reality in which he plays everything so straight. Yes. These are real. This is an issue. A toon killed his tunes suck yeah

when he just goes tunes at the beginning he fucking hates tunes yeah and it's what makes that whole journey so rewarding by the end when he loosens up he has one of the in my opinion one of the best arcs of any sort of protagonist by uh just learning to, learning to think like a toon, learning to like know how to relate to them. And that's why one of my favorite moments in Pikachu is the moment where Justice, his character, Tim has like a very emotional speech to a Bulbasaur.

Yes. And that was one of the weirder things that Benji and I have ever written. Like we're sitting there like being like you know I mean we had this conversation we're like is this too weird is this insane a full dramatic speech to a Bulbasaur that cannot talk

but we just we believed in it and we wanted to put it in and it stayed through the end because yeah I think it has that grounded reality to the whole thing of like, this is real. The stakes are real. And it also was like, this kid needs to learn how to communicate with these things on their own terms. And that was, to me, the biggest influence from Roger Rabbit, which i i think that that was so ingeniously done

and we really wanted to try to similarly capture that now of course in roger rabbit they can talk back right so it's a little bit you know other than detective pikachu but you know yosemite saying my biscuits are burning you know like that kind of you get you know their personalities a little bit more but that that was definitely intentional on our part. It's something that we gave a lot of thought to. And I was actually really pleased with the way that it came out in the movie. Well, Justice Smith, I mean, the thing I was very impressed with watching the performance is I feel like, and this is a thing that bugs me often in films like this where someone has a tragic backstory

and they kind of don't play it for 90% of the movie. Like they only play the weight of the things when it's convenient for the scene and they drop it whenever it gets in the way of anything else. I don't think there's a scene where you lose track of the fact that he's grieving over his father. Right. Even when it's like a funny scene. Yeah.

I think he carries that. Technically the performance is like insane because he's acting with like a thousand species doing insane things all the time. Technically, the performance is like insane because he's acting with like a thousand species doing insane things all the time. But the other thing is, kind of like what you said, in a less tragic way

or maybe a less violent way, he does have a bit of the Eddie Valiant thing because it's like, he's a kid who grew up loving Pokemon. He wanted to be a Pokemon trainer

like most of us who grew up watching or playing Pokemon. And then he sort of like fell into the like, I think I have to grow up, I have to get a Pokemon trainer like most of us who grew up watching or playing Pokemon. And then he sort of fell into the I think I have to grow up, I have to get a job. And also, I resent the fact that my father left me and spent all his time solving Pokemon crimes. I live

in the real world. That Pokemon world is some other kid business. Someone asked us a really good question the other day when we were doing an interview. They said, did you intend for the arc of that character to sort of mirror the arc of someone who was obsessed with Pokemon? And maybe got over it. And maybe got over it and then came back to it. Right.

And I'd like to say that that was 100% conscious. I mean, there definitely was some of it. Sure. But I do realize now that there is a parallel there. I think that on some level, that was what we were writing about. I guess this comes back to the fandom. It's something that you just love with the intensity of a kit. Yeah.

The most intense thing that you... That first blush of like, this is my thing. I'm forging my identity around this thing. This is going to be part of me that I carry forward, even if I start to drift away from the thing itself. Right. And now we're hoping that... And what we're seeing on Twitter from people who have seen the early screenings

is people being like, I feel like a kid again. Or being like, I hope my favorite Pokemon is in the movie. And that's very rewarding. My favorite Pokemon is not in the movie. I'm sorry, who's your favorite? Poliwhirl.

It's why I would never pick Squirtle because when Bulbasaur showed up, who's a big one for me, I got very excited. Even though I knew he had been in the trailer. There had been Bulbasaurs. I like that there were a lot of them, though. I like that it felt like herds of Pokemon are

rarely thought about in the world. It's always a very one-on-one kind of experience when you're playing the game. So I like that there was a herd, that there was some sort of weird, unspoken Bulbasaur ritual that was sort of happening. March of the Bulbasaurs. That's exactly right and that's my other favorite

scene in the movie actually. The build up to the March of the Bulbasaurs is it's like weird I had a similar I recently rewatched My Neighbor Totoro. Sure.

Never going to come up on this podcast. One of my very favorite movies. Right. But the reason I love it so much is that it is so unexplained. Yes. No logic is ever dealt into. There is no logic to it. It's in a sort of child's eye view the whole time.

It just is. Yeah. It just is. If you walk into the right forest on the right day with the right attitude, you might get a Totoro of your own. Just be your protector. I want a Bulbasaur of my own. Well, that's how I... And that was exactly

a Bulbasaur of one's own. But Griffin immediately leaned over to me and said, I usually pick Bulbasaur. I never pick Squirtle because I don't want to get locked into my water. See, I was a Charmander guy. Charmander's good too.

I loved Orange as a kid. Charmander is a tough challenge in the first game. He's the hardest Pokemon. He sucks against the first two gyms. He's going to turn into the best one. I love a good underdog narrative. Right, right. Whereas Bulbasaur is the easiest.

But I just like, because he's, you know, he's just cool. He's weird. He's got a flower on his back. He's the cutest. He's the cutest. He is the cutest. So when we were writing that scene, we wanted a similar, and I think the director and the DP, everyone did an amazing job of capturing this. But it was on the pitch because it was something that we really felt passionately about, which

is we wanted to capture this sense of like, if you walked into the right grove and maybe you'd see a herd of Bulbasaur. Maybe your life would be completely different and better. Do you guys ever play Pokemon Snap? No. That game is very much like it's very like herdy. It's that idea. The nature photographer one.

Very weird idea for a game. Whoever came up with that. There's that thing I love too where it's just like once again not talking any shit about another video game adaptation that might have had a recently poorly received trailer. It might be about like a fast being of some sort. You keep referencing this thing

and I just don't know what you're talking about. I mean as non-specific as possible. All of these characters look exactly like the original designs. The only sort of filter they've been put through is make them tactile. And I like that it's just like, you know what?

If you're going to see a Pokemon movie, you have to accept that some of them have flowers on their back. Some of them are ghosts. Some of them are made of rock. It is wild

that there are ghosts in Pokemon. Some of them are mechanical. It's wild that Cubone wears his mother's skull. And you just call it out. It's just like, this is the world you're living in, baby.

So now they just, they got scales and they got fur. No, it's just like, this is the world you're living in, baby. So now they just, they got scales and they got fur. No, the weirdest thing to think about is like none of the Pokemon technically have clothes. So like, Mr. Mime, that's organic. Yeah, he's just, yes. That's, you know, Snubbull's

skirt is just like a skin flap. Right, right.bull's skirt is just like a skin flap. There's that weird thing where you're like, like seeing Mr. Mime as a kid, it was like, oh, those things on the side of his head are meant to represent like clown hair and it's just not detailed. And then you watch it in the movie and you're like, oh, they're like weird, like vestigial,

like they're like his ears. Like they're not hair. They're like these blue sacks of flesh and as you say pikachu has these two red dots on his face right yeah and uh he's just got some red dots you just gotta accept it yeah you don't go like well but if he runs fast he must have the body of usain bolt so we need to give him a very realistic human musk because look at this the ken sugimori illustration of bulbasaur. Right. You know, the designer of the game, I need to remember his name, Satoshi Tajiri and this guy, like, sat down

and they would go to zoos and they would, like, draw little animals. Yeah. And that drawing looks exactly the same as Bulbasaur does in this movie. Right. Like, nothing has been changed. No. No. No, and that was a big goal of them, of, like, keeping the same silhouette.

It's really just some of the textures. It really is. That makes them feel so... There's no need to reinvent the wheel. Psyduck I was very happy with. Because I feel like... That was a moment where it's just like... These guys get it.

You saying we wanted Psyduck to be the breakout character. I feel like if you grew up with Pokemon, you're like, these guys get it. Because you saying we wanted Psyduck to be the breakout character, I feel like if you grew up with Pokemon, you're like, yeah, of course. But obviously, who else would be the option? Of course Psyduck is your scene stealer. Well, I mean, he's the Pokemon that has a built-in attitude and character. Right, he comes with a personality.

And so when there's a personality that's already, like half our work was already done with him. So we were like, yeah, we have to have him. And he's got the great Chekhov's gun quality of just constantly teasing out, like, don't make him nervous. Don't stress him out. And, you know, some people at first were very surprised that Mr. Mime was such a big part of the thing. But it's a similar reason.

It's because... Story gift. This is a person with a comedic point. this is a person with a comedic point this is a pokemon with a comedic point of view yeah it's a comedic game that you can play and take advantage of and as writers you're really looking for not only who are the coolest pokemon but which are the ones that you can infuse some personality to or some specific personality because you know there's many mr mimes in the, but this one is a dick. And that's funny.

But also that thing of none of them can talk but this one can communicate. Mr. Mime has a baked in language. Yes. So was the father thing in place from the moment that you guys came on? Was that part of sort of the original inception of the thing? Yeah, I mean that goes back to the game. Okay, okay

so the game also has that kind of like we're looking for the kid's dad. Right, right, right. Yes and I think that if I recall correctly the first Detective Pikachu game actually doesn't resolve that storyline. Oh my god. It's a saga. It's part one. The one that we got

the original Japanese one was only the first few chapters of the game. Sure. So there was no resolution to the story. I think the one that came out here. It's a more greasy. But even then, it doesn't fully spell it out the way we do. So there was an element of like, okay, we have to try to make this feel earned yeah as much as possible right we

tried to write emotionally and i know the other people involved in the movie did as well and and you know that was something that it was it was challenging to strike the right balance because you don't want it to be maudlin but you also want to deal i hope earnestly with with loss and grief and and give you know justice something to play right which he did incredible i think he did an amazing job of doing that and i agree you know so how do you do that as a writer you know i for me my parent you know and i have a great relationship with my parents but my parents got divorced when I was very young. And I remember those feelings of loss.

And it's not the same as a parent dying. Yeah. But you try to say, okay. You pull from something. There's an emotional reality to that. And can we infuse some of that into this crazy movie? That also has to be a movie for kids. You have that challenge too.

You can't make it too visceral or you want to skirt that edge. Not as a back patty thing, but since season two came out, I've seen so many people responding to the danger boat episode. Just being like, how did they commit this hard into doing

this emotional scene with a robot boat? And the answer is, and neither of us were in communication about this, and I didn't piece it together until months later, but as you guys know from being in the room, Susan Hurwitz-Earonson, one of the main writers on the show, who's an incredible person,

her best friend died very shortly before writing the season. And she wrote the Danger Boat episode funneling all of her emotions into that sort of sense of loss. And I, like Danger Brode episode funneling all of her emotions into that sort of sense of loss. And I like a month before we started filming one of, someone

very close in my life got diagnosed with a very serious illness. And they're 100% fine now. But I showed up on set not knowing that she had written it based off of something real. Playing that scene as if I was talking. You took your thing. And she took her thing and we never communicate with each other.

And we have this scene where people are like, why does this scene make me cry? This is stupid. But also, if you're going to write these things or you're going to act these things, like why show up if you're not going to give your all against a Bulbasaur? Well, that's exactly.

If you're not going to write based off of your divorce from your childhood. You just put your finger exactly on the most important thing. First of all, Susan is a brilliant writer and did an incredible job. Is the best. And a great person. You know, what was interesting is that she was actually supposed to write the second episode of the season.

Which you guys ended up writing. That we ended up writing. Right. The first sort of eages tore up. Not to say that, like, obviously, I'm sorry that her friend passed away. That was a horrible thing. But the way that it fell, she was able to. It was sort of serendipitous.

I think it's the best episode probably of the season. I think it's a great one. Yeah. If not the best, it is among the best. I think it's the best. It's probably the best one.

The lobster episode's really good. I like that one, and I like the casino one. I like that one. I actually like all of them. It's a good season. It's a good season. It's actually a pretty good season.

All I'm saying is, you know, Dan and Benji came on board, and you know... Season two bump. Season two bump. All I'm saying is, you know, Dan and Benji came on board and, you know. Season two bump. Season two bump. But, yes, she gave it everything.

Yeah. And the way that you acted that scene was like, okay, yes, it's a boat. Right. But we're going to take this so fucking seriously, it's going to break your heart. Right. I showed up on set and I didn't tell anyone this because I thought it was daunting, but I was like, okay, cool. From the moment I read this script, I went, this is the day where I'm going to funnel in all my anxiety about me losing the person I love right now.

Yeah, no. Like that this person might die. And I think that that comes through. And so that's the kind of seriousness and kind of going back to the beginning of our conversation is like, if you're going to write a Pokemon or write a fucking Pokemon movie, don't pull your punches. Don't think you're too cool for it. Don't be disdainful of it. Yeah.

And I'm not saying anyone was that. I'm just saying, you know, that was how like that caring too much thing. Right. Was like, okay, yes, I'm going to care too much about this right now. And Benji felt the same way. And Benji was okay. way. I sure did. And Benji was okay. He was like giving out checks.

Yeah, no, I just wanted as much money as possible. Right, and for the check to save the Pokemon company. That's right. So I don't know. I think that the enthusiasm gap or the versatility gap is sometimes like very apparent when you see things that maybe people didn't believe in that much and I really hope that people like the movie and respond to it

and aren't listening to this being like yeah the movie fucking sucks but I think that they will I do think there's a generational thing and for people like me who were I was held like 11 years old when the video game came out and so I've sort of been steeped in it like like i am so happy to see a movie like this maybe if you're a little older you're like that thing always passed me by and this just i don't get it yeah right you know

i can see that happening no there are there are some critics that i've seen on twitter or whatever that have been like don't you know i i went in thinking pokemon were stupid and i still think they're stupid right it's like Why did you go see it? Why were you the critic that thought I'm going to go see this thing if you already hate Pokemon? I've seen a lot of video game critics and of course, yes, the video game movie

as we've discussed is rife with bombs and missed opportunities or a studio being like, can it on all the nerd shit, okay? Whatever. Just John Clef Van Damme can be guile. That'll be fine, right? opportunities or like a studio being like, eh, can it on all the nerd shit. Okay. Like whatever. Just John Clef Van Damme can be guile. That'll be fine. Right. You know,

he wrote that script in one day. Really? Steven D'Souza? Is that one? Yeah. Okay. That's, that's actually impressive.

When you watch that movie through the filter of he had one day. Yeah. It's actually an incredible accomplishment. Like, was it a thing where they just cast everyone, they built the sets and they were like, fuck, we

forgot. I am not sure. Call time is 6 a.m. tomorrow. I went deep on this once. I think it's all on Wikipedia, but someone

was also telling me about it, but it was like, it really was a situation where they're like, we don't, we don't have a script. And it's not like Street Fighter is like, well, you just draw

right from the video game. The plot's very easy. There's these street fights and bison. There you go. You ready? So what you're talking about, and I... Video game fans seem to be responding very positively

to what I was seeing. On sites like Kotaku, Polygon... It's like an emotional story based off a video game world, whereas most video game movies, the problem they get into is like, it's an action movie. And if you're watching the action scenes, you'd rather be home playing them. Well, that's the thing. It's like, I think this sort of, you know, the video game movie curse that people refer to, you know, there is a thing where, unlike other IPs like comic books or

books or anything like that, a video game people are used to controlling. That's the weird part of the number. It's their story. They don't just want to watch action that they're not playing. It becomes instantly

less fun watching Assassin's Creed happen. Wait a second. Oh no, you're going to get riled up. Last week's episode. No, not last week's, but a couple weeks ago. That movie's good.

But is it more fun to play Assassin's Creed? He's never played it. That's why he loves himself. I think you would love to play it even more. I mean, I like Assassin's. That's why I picked the movie. You love Creed's. I'm all about Creed's. We. I mean, I like assassins. That's why I picked the movie. You love creeds. Right.

I'm all about creeds. We know about that. Yeah. Gotta get that apple. Gotta get that apple. You do gotta get that apple. So, all right. I'll try the game out.

You gotta try it. But that is... But yeah, when we were doing Detective Pikachu, yeah, we're telling a different type of story. It's a very intimate, specific, emotional story. You're not trying to capture the whole world. You're not doing the battles, which probably, you know. We have the one battles. Right.

You've got to give people a little bit of what they want. You have a cool Magikarp evolving scene. You've got stuff like that. That's classic stuff. That was an idea that we had very early on. Sure. That we really wanted. That's got to be in there.

Well, we wanted to show that they're, you know, physicalized that evolution. It's like this useless thing that now is not so useless. But I'm interested in your guys' opinion about the video game curse because it wasn't something that I was thinking about when we were writing this movie. Sure. Really at all. Especially, well, you got Pokemon.

You've already got the anime and, you know, you have a little more than video games to draw from. There's so much. And there's so many different games. It's been filtered through so many different lenses. I do sort of want, you know, I've seen a few reviews,

like, you know, you're right. The game media has been so positive. Yeah. Yeah. And some of the more, you know,

some of the more traditional critics based on video games. Here we go. Go ahead. Yeah. I would love to hear that list. I've been like, it's, it's pretty good.

Does it break the video game curse? I don't think so, my friend. And I sort of am like, well, what is the... Weirdly, every time one of these movies comes out, it seems like the bar is impossibly high in a weird way. And I hope that someone writes the godfather of video games and it wins offers. Shenmue wins Best Picture in 2023. But it is kind of a weird... hope that someone writes the godfather of of video games and it wins off you wins best picture

like 2023 but it is kind of a weird i don't know it's sort of a weird i don't want to say fake but it's like it's like it's sort of self-fulfilling prophecy maybe there is a little bit of like it's like a it's like a carrot that some people are dangling yeah it's like did you break it i don't think so but i i think benji's onto the right thing, which it is like, it speaks to the weird relationship people have to these things. And sometimes you have something like Street Fighter

where you're like, wow, this is an exciting world. Look at these characters. What weird locations. There's no real story to go off of here. Right. So if Steven D'Souza is writing the script in one day, even if that's impressive for a one day script,

it's hard to make the thing out of whole cloth. They wrote the King's speech in one day. Did you know that? No. What if it turns out every movie was written in one day? Every good screenplay. I totally bought that for a second. So here are some video games.

So they've taken a few cracks at Mortal Kombat. I'm going to tell you which ones that I think are good. Okay. Do you want me to go chronologically or by? Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, okay. So the first agreed upon video game movie really ever is Super Mario Brothers. Oh, okay. Super Mario Brothers. I think that movie.

That movie is crazy. Is crazy. Very crazy. I like it. I liked it at the time i wrote a big piece defending it so yeah on its anniversary i don't know if i want to say it is a good movie but it is a captivating and like provocative movie and it has these insane sets and like it's very practical they made strong choices really it is an absolutely bizarre perversion of a platform game about a little man who's running around.

But you got to do something with that. The Yoshi model is super cute in that movie. Dennis Hopper is Donald Trump dialed in. Donald Trump. Trump Koopa. Trump Koopa. And it's such a perfect snapshot of the 90s. The early 90s aesthetic where they're like, no, no, no, guck it up, guys.

We want goo everywhere. The idea of how the mushrooms function sort of realistically. And of course, Hoskins, who we've already been praising. And John Leguizamo, who is one of my... I think when he's dialed in, he is awesome. I love Leguizamo. They're an odd sibling pair, but I love him. I think that movie has actually weirdly aged well.

I think so, too. I think so, too. What's that? All right, so then we have Street Fighter. Not a great movie. Never seen it. But a great one day. But a great, but in the annals of screenwriting. As part of the 24 hour film festival.

In the annals of screenwriting history I would rank that as an accomplished film festival. And then Paul W.S. Anderson enters the game with the two Mortal Kombat movies, which I haven't seen the second one I barely remember

the first one I saw the second one in theaters Annihilation and it was one of the more disappointing I made my dad go

sure sure sure and my dad I'm skipping a few of the little ones once again that's like a fighting game I mean you fall into this thing where it's like

fighting games are hard no because you'd rather just be doing the fights yourself I have to say at the time they do have strong characters. They have great characters.

Great characters in Mortal Kombat. And I have to say, I actually really loved the first Mortal Kombat movie at the time. Right, the Paul W. Sanderson one. Because it did have sort of that 90s, like, techno, techno, techno. Totally. There is a vibe in that movie that is specific to, like,

not even just, like, a decade, but, but like a few years within the decade. Yes. And I think that's kind of cool. All right. So we're going to keep going. We've got, well, then we have Lara Croft Tomb Raider, which is not so good, which is sort of like grafting like, I don't know, Indiana Jones-y kind of. Yeah, but I feel like that's an example of just that movie not working. I don't think any of the problems in that movie are connected to the fact that it's based off of a video game.

Not at all. I mean, they just watched, they looked at the video game and they were like, this is Indiana Jones-y, right? Right. And she's a lady. I just think it's kind of a crummy movie. But the Vikander movie I like a lot. I actually liked that one.

We all, I think we were all pretty fond of that one. So it does seem to be just maybe the first Lara Croft wasn't. I remember seeing it at the time and being like, it was okay. Then there's the Resident Evil series, which is the sort of agreed on, I think, masterpiece of video game cinema. Of course.

There's six of them. They go in all kinds of insane directions. I'm very fond of them. They're their own thing. They're their own thing. They are separate from the video game. They will sort of have like characters

who are like kind of nodding to the game but like they're they're a whole and they really like the Mila Jovovich show and she's sort of the queen of like video game movies

I sort of appreciate their commitment they're good to being super crazy they're crazy by the time they're in the fifth one they're really like

they're like if you're still watching these then you're just gonna fuck around it's similar to in a way watching like I know Banjo-Kazooie

kind of the Saw yes yeah like the lore goes so deep once you get to Saw you know five six seven like it's

Saw's been dead for four movies no I mean there's I think it was Saw five or six or there was a flashback

within a flashback within a flashback yes and it's just like, okay. And so like, I don't watch it for like, the torture stuff, whatever. But just in terms of like insane storytelling

of like flashing back to you thought you knew what happened this time, but actually this happened. Nope. Actually, this third thing was happening. It's like, yeah. Okay. Like, that's great. But the Resident Evil movies function in that way, and I think if they were more literal adaptations of the games, they might have had a harder time working.

Alright. Then it gets really dire, because you have crap like Alone in the Dark. You have Doom, which is just sort of like... Yeah, this is the worst. Foul. Well, this is... You know what I mean? Dr. Uwe Boll. Like, Silent Hill, which is kind of like one of the great video games as art series. Yeah. Like, they kind of take a crack at it, and it's sort of like visually of the great video games as art series

like they kind of take a crack at it and it's sort of like visually interesting but like meh right like you know it's all visual yeah they take Pyramid Head like who is such a dynamic and crazy character and he's just like a big guy with a knife but can I hypothesize as we're going through this list

I feel like perhaps the problem with a lot of these movies is the exact thing we've been talking about is hiring writers who kind of have disdain for the thing they're adapting. No, for sure. Max Payne is another one. I'm not saying any of these people specifically or the directors, maybe it's the actors, whoever it is, but a lot of these

franchises feel like either when Resident Evil works, it's like we're going to make our own thing out of this. And the ones that don't work feel like the people involved maybe think they're kind of slumming it. And it may be that things are getting better just because the generation of people that actually grew up

with video games is now the age of people that are writing movies like us. Right. The generation is caught up. And by the way, I'm sure that people work very hard on those games. I know. Max Payne is a great example of where it's like, what do people like about And by the way, I'm sure that people work very hard on those games. No, I know. And there's things to like in any movie.

Max Payne is a great example of where it's like, what do people like about Max Payne? Let's not do that. Right. Right. Because I played all those games. I love those games. Those games are so good. The second one is incredible.

The second one is a masterpiece. It is. It really is. I've actually like noir. It's a well-told story. It's completely great. And so they were like well let's not do that

and that to me is sort of a bewildering weird choice and so yeah I think maybe we're tapping into something but then there's this final phase I want to get to which is Warcraft Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider which are movies

that are not well received and often don't like you know Warcraft was Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider, which are movies that are not well received and often don't, like, you know, Warcraft was kind of a bomb, although it did really well overseas. But those are movies who are written by people who like those games and are kind of, like, so deep on the lore. Like, Warcraft is impenetrable

if you haven't, like, played Warcraft. I had no idea what I was watching. Right, and it's sort of throwing you in the deep end. And, yeah, the reaction was kind of bafflement. At the end of Warcraft, I saw with my big World of Warcraft friend. And at the end of the movie, when the baby comes out, he was like, that's the lead character. And I was like, what do you mean that's the lead? What?

What have I been watching? It turns out it's kind of like a prequel to the game. And he's like, that's the actual lead character. What? What, you're talking about his dad? And so now we've got Detective Pikachu. We've got an unnamed fast rodent. I don't know what you're talking about.

It's Speedy the animal. You've got a Minecraft movie. When's that happening? They keep on announcing the directors. That keeps being on the schedule. Minecraft is another one that I think is very daunting to think about. Minecraft is plotless.

They're going to make a movie out of that like the old PC game? It's not old. It's not that old. Quadrant? Like the grid and you push the little boxes? They're thinking of Minesweeper. Are you thinking of Minesweeper? They're not making a Minesweeper movie. They could make a Minesweeper. Actually, Benji and I just signed on to Minesweeper. Are you thinking of Minesweeper? They're not making a Minesweeper.

They could make a Minesweeper. Actually, Benji and I just signed on to Minesweeper. Chip's Challenge? There's a plot in Sweeping for Mines. Not hit the mine. Wasn't your dad the world's foremost Minesweeper? He's up there. He can do expert in like

seven seconds. What I'm thinking about as you're saying this, and I think maybe this is an advantage that Pokemon has. We're talking about movies about adventurers. We're talking about movies about assassins. We're talking about

movies about fantasy world that, while it is its own thing, is not unprecedented in the sense of we are familiar with Lord of the Rings. We're familiar with orcs and warriors. fantasy world that, while it is its own thing, is not unprecedented in the sense of we are familiar with Lord of the Rings, we're familiar with orcs and warriors. Sure.

And these things that are, and this is a lethal combination, often largely plotless and very lore heavy. It's very hard to write a script where there's a ton of backstory, but the plotting itself is just kind of like,

and then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens. So it kind of is interesting that the ones that we kind of were gravitating towards are Mario's very weird and very unique you know Mortal Kombat

very specific to that thing and it's very of it's era but not unprecedented in like the fighting tournament sense of things but you know the way that Scorpion is integrated in that movie is very cool, and it's different, and it's not something you've seen a million times.

So maybe there is something to embracing the weirdness or the uniqueness of whatever that property is and just saying, yeah, this is the fucking weird thing that we're doing. Instead of turning it into a generic copy of whatever movie is in that genre. We're doing a movie that takes place in Wyoming and apparently, or seemingly from the trailers, only in the last scene probably, has the characters looking the way you remember them looking in a world. Are you talking about a movie about a quick, fuck, I'm out of synonyms.

Quick, spiny, egg-laying mammal? I have no idea what you're talking about but i also feel like uh yes i don't want to make it sound like i'm putting the blame for those earlier movies just at like oh this screenwriter was a hack or this or that but you also have examples where maybe like the writer cares a lot about and the director cares a lot about it and then a big movie star signs on and they're like i don't want to do that stuff or it's the director who doesn't care when the other two people did or whatever it is but also very often i think we're living in a world where they understand the value of for better or worse studios now understand the value of the ip is the ip you don't strip mine it and

find a way to get as little of the ip in the movie as possible and then make the rest of the film catering to what you think mall goers want to see. If you're making a movie off a thing, you want to make the best movie of that thing and represent everything that people like about that thing. Well, that did go back to what we were talking about at the beginning. I think, you know, the fandom becoming the mainstream

has made it so that's the case. It's like, we're not trying to appeal to, you know, random people. You knowe right like the most vocal people and the people still going to the movie theater right are the fans that want there's the confidence of knowing we can write a movie for the hardcore fans and if only the hardcore fans see it that's enough to make the movie a big hit right and you know you obviously want to write a movie that anyone can sit down and enjoy yeah you want to write the movie i big hit. Right. And, you know, you obviously want to write a movie that anyone can sit down and enjoy.

Yeah. You want to write the movie, I mean, like, you want something that anyone can enjoy, but you also want the people who want the movie to work the most to be able to enjoy it. We did not sit down

writing Detective Pikachu saying, this is a movie that every single person is going to like. Right, right. That is definitely true. We weren't trying to make a movie to try and cater to every person.

Every quadrant. Right, right. Like, we wanted to make something movie to try and cater to every person. Every quadrant. Right, right. We wanted to make something that the fans would love and that could also bring in some new fans that didn't realize that they loved Pokemon. I forgot about Final Fantasy The Spirits Within. So Final Fantasy The Spirits Within is a very weird one. And it's also kind of its own thing.

It's its own thing. Yeah, it's right. I don't think it's also kind of its own thing it's its own thing yeah it's right i i didn't like i don't think it's like a great movie no but it it it's trying some things and it's it's definitely i mean it's extremely you know jrpg in its story and its thing so like final fantasy is a great example of could they make a good movie of final fantasy 7? Maybe. Sure. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. But that's one where if someone gave us that challenge,

I would be like, okay. Right. This is something that I really love. It's also one of those things where a studio is going to have to be like, sure, take a huge budget. Like, it's not going to be something you're going to do for nothing. You know, so I think that when we set out to write the movie, even when we were talking to each other, we were like, is anyone going to like this? And we were kind of going, I think so, but maybe not.

But maybe that's okay because we're going to try to tell the best version of this story that we possibly can. Sure. And that's why I feel ultimately like I hope that it's a big hit and I hope that it gets pretty favorable reviews but if it doesn't I remember what I was going to say I had a professor in college who was a theater professor

Was it Pikachu? It was Pikachu His name is Spencer Golub He was the head of the theater department at Brown He did an example one day Spencer Pollywog He sat on a cube if he was the head of the theater department at Brown. And he did an example one day of like, Spencer Pollywog. Spencer Pollywog.

He sat on like a cube, just like a regular cube. Sure. And, you know, it was like he was sitting on it. And then like, he was like, everyone turn around and he like did something to the cube, but he couldn't tell. And he sat on it, but there was something like appreciably different

about the way that he was sitting on this cube. And it turned out that there was a hole in the middle of the cube that was making was sitting on this cube. And it turned out that there was a hole in the middle of the cube that was making his sitting experience uncomfortable. We could not see this hole, but we could tell that something had changed. And I think that screenwriting is when you actually give a shit about the subject matter

and you're sort of thinking about things like, okay, well, we want to reference Total Recall and we want to put Roger Rabbit into it and the third man and these Raymond Chand chandler stories like i hope that like secretly embedded in this movie right you feel that like even if the audience that has no idea never listened to this podcast doesn't know anything about what we did or why that there is some sense of like they seem to have an idea they seem to be like confident about whatever it is that they're trying to accomplish. And I think that the movie does accomplish

that, and I'm proud of that, I guess. So here's the big question, and I don't know how much you guys can comment on this or not. David has one big takeaway at the end of the movie. He turns to me and he goes, I'm worried. I did say this. Detective Pikachu's a star.

I was like, you guys got rid of Detective Pikachu I mean spoilers the movie kind of takes him off the board again this is coming out a couple weeks after the movie's coming out he's so good that I was almost like don't take him away

emotionally narratively of course it's the point you get to but was there any fear when you guys were like emotionally, narratively, of course it's the point you get to. Right. But was there any fear when you guys were writing that? You know, if I'm one of the Warner brothers, I'm like,

wait a second, wait a second, wait, hold up, hold up. What about when the teacher talks in the Ryan Reynolds voice though? We can't lose that.

He drinks the coffee. Yeah. So at the, I don't think it's talking out of school to say at the script stage or at the planning stage, there was talk and and debate about that is this exact issue yeah and i think that what was ultimately decided upon correctly was let's tell

the best story that we can tell for this movie and if you want to bring it back you can figure it out later there is a future movie that's a problem that will be dealt with right hopefully in a really cool creative way that seems like the right answer to me right because it it wasn't you know it there were there were a couple things debated well could we do this could we do that do we preserve it in this way or that way but ultimately it was like no let's just tell this story let's make it a completed thought i mean which is much better than the opposite franchisee thing where you're like the movie ends kind of unsatisfyingly and someone leans over it's like well they've already like signed the contract for this spin-off so

like that's why it's doing that and you're like or my friend leans over and goes that baby's the lead like that shit right right which i'd much rather see a film that completes its own thought and it does also in an interesting way kind of set the stage where it's like, I know they announced that someone's writing a Detective Pikachu direct sequel, but there are also people, I think, writing other live-action Pokemon movies that they're incubating a bunch right now. Sure. Much like Togepi was incubated.

Right, right. The proverbial Togepi. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of togepis humming right now. I like the idea that this world set up and the franchise

could just be what are other stories in the Pokemon universe. Like, what way they end up going, who knows? But I do like the promise of just like...

And the next film could be like a fucking legal thriller. Yeah. And the next film could be like a trainer. It could be Karate Kid with Pokemon. Professor Pikachu?

We wanted to make it clear that Rhyme City is still connected to the rest of the Pokemon universe. The other regions exist. So it's all out there and is a fertile ground for

whatever story might come David's hell yeah so don't worry David it's gonna be okay okay okay I just really

connected to we've got our top people working on this even as we speak alright Ben you have something you want to say I think we're

basically done here but uh Ben's been writing part detective Ben is on the case. Okay. I got some of my favorite parts from the movie. Okay, so you've now surmised what you think happens in the movie

from us talking about the process of writing the movie. So my favorite Pokemon is the Mudacle. It's a frozen mud spike. I really love that moment when it came into the bar they were at, and he was vaping hard. There are a lot of those in Jersey, right? I feel like... Yeah.

Muddle Cold doesn't sound that far off of a real one. But my favorite Pokemon by far is the burning tire Pokemon, Scorch. Sure. Also not that far off. Also, these all could be... Because there was that moment

like three generations in where they were like, any man-made object could be a Pokemon. Garbodor? Yes, exactly. Garbage bag? Clefki. Oh, Garbodor was one I really wanted in the movie.

That would have been cool. He's a very urban Pokemon. Garbodor was in our early drafts. And I think maybe it's just too weird or something. And then a classic noir setting I was excited to see in the movie was the quicksand factory. Of course. Any good blockbuster needs a quicksand factory. Because what if you fall in the quicksand?

A lot of tension. What if you make it? I guess it's both. What else? It was kind of weird to see Kirby driving a blimp. Yes, that was weird. Kirby the Nintendo? Yeah, he's not a Pokemon character. Or, that was a weird... Kirby the Nintendo? Yeah, he's not a Pokemon character.

Or do you mean like Kirby Puckett or something? No, I thought Kirby was a Pokemon. Bruno Kirby? And then of course the ending, which was so crazy, it was Deadpool the whole time. It was Deadpool, of course. So twisted, the movie came out of Deadpool's brain.

Crazy. Anyway, I loved it. Well, I mean, that's so twisted. The movie came out of Deadpool's brain. Crazy. Anyway, I loved it. Well, I mean, that's a strong review. Isn't that, can you go any higher than that? You can. That's probably the greatest review. Hit publish on Rotten Tomatoes right now. I mean, you saying some of these people, why would you even see this movie? It's not for you.

Yeah. Is there ever been a review that, so coming from someone more clearly on your side, getting exactly what you were going for in the movie? Ben's flashing a peace sign. Loved it. Beautiful. Yeah, we're done, right? Yeah, I think we're done. Do you guys have any final thoughts?

Is there anything you want to share? We wish people a happy Detective Pikachu. Well, I'll say I'm working on a noir script. Yeah? It's called Night Eggs. It's called Night Eggs. It's called Night Eggs. Okay. It's about a detective who eats breakfast at night.

This is not a joke. He established this about 18 months ago. He has truly been working on this script. And the villains are witch hackers. Uh-huh. Right. And they practice witchery. Do they use their witchcraft to use the hack

or do they use their hacking to access witchcraft? Kind of both. Oh, great. That's always his answer. That's always his answer. Great answer. So, I don't know. Once I get further along,

would you guys like to take a pass at it? Can we talk about this off the air? Because I think that we need to... Of course. Has anyone optioned this material? Chris Weitz is on board as a producer. He was a guest on the show. So there is a pre-existing...

All right, well... Chris is a collaborator. Maybe we can carve it out. He's not going to big dog you. I don't know. But I'd like to talk to you further about this opportunity. Thank you so much. We love the world you're playing in.

It's a fun world. There's a lot of opportunity in that world. Benji, Dan, thank you so much for being here. Guys, this was a dream come true.

Thank you. And I do want to come back for Edward's Wig when it's time. Sure. What's his Wig movie? Diswikening. Glory.

Glory. I'm trying to think like, yeah. We covered one. Oh, Pod, covered one pod another cast yeah well we did we did never go and never go cast yeah yeah people forget he made the second jack reacher movie um i think he did that legends of the podcast blood diamond isn't that oh yeah about last night did he do about last night he did that Night? He did. That's his debut. Yeah, yeah. That's his debut. He made, you know, Courage Under Fire. He made, what's it called?

Bobby Fischer. Pawn Sacrifice. Pawn Sacrifice. Pawn Sacrifice. I saw that movie. I believe Tobey Maguire's. I did, too. Tobey Maguire's last role.

On camera. On camera. His last credit film role is the narrator of The Boss Baby. That's right. Nice. So it sounds to me like the Zwick pod, you know. It's in the works. It's a fruitful era. It's like boss baby. That's right. So it sounds to me like the Zwick pod you know. It's in the works. It's a fruitful era. It's like Night Eggs.

We'll talk off air about this opportunity. We love the world. Yes. We love the possibilities of this world. So much potential. But yes, Benji Dan, thank you for being here. Thank you for writing Detective Pokemon. Detective Pokemon? I'm sorry, Pokemon Detective Pikachu. Thank you. That was another

thing, because when you see the poster, you're like, oh, the Pokemon might just be there as branding. When the movie starts and the opening titles come up and it just says Pokemon Detective Pikachu, you're like, that's the official title, baby. We went right at it. Yeah, you gotta take a bite.

What else is there? I gotta pee. Let's wrap it up. Watch season two of The Tick. Watch season two of The Tick. Don't be a dick about it. Just do it. What if we did a Tick-Pokemon crossover? Sure. What if season three

was a case of Rhyme City? Tick got a Heracross or whatever. Yeah. You know, but you say this, but like, Ben is listening somewhere and being like,

what are you talking? No, no. It's not my season three. Or he's like, yes. Yes. How did you guess? Yeah.

I just think Tick should interrogate a Meowth. Yeah, that sounds good. Meowth is good, but you couldn't really touch Meowth. That's Team Rocket territory. Right, right, right. That was... But Meowth is one, that sounds good. Meowth is good, but you couldn't really touch Meowth. That's Team Rocket territory. Yeah, that was...

But Meowth is one of the weirder Pokemon to start out with. I was sad Meowth wasn't in the movie, but it just seemed like... Did you have Meowth in certain drafts? No. I think in one draft he's mentioned as a background,

but not... But I feel like Team Rocket is its own thing. It kind of felt like we can't even like open that thing right now so that's why I

you know but I hope that you know in the future everyone will get to see their favorites sure I mean there was

Gengar in there that's another of my favorites you know you had some great ones you just didn't touch the

Poliwag family we've always wanted Gengar from the beginning Gengar is huge that's one that we really wanted We've always wanted Gengar from the beginning. Gengar is huge. That was one that we really wanted. And looked so funny. Gengar looked great.

And his weird cloning move. It kind of reminded me of Great Tiger in Punch-Out. Yep. You know, when he does the spinning. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever, guys. I know we just talked about why certain video game movies don't work

and it falls squarely in this territory, but Punch-Out would be a cool movie. Punch-Out would be a cool movie. The ones that are just cool-looking characters fighting are the difficult ones. I actually could be Glass-Eyed Joe. I could be Glass-Eyed Joe. Glass-Jawed.

Glass-Jawed Joe. Uh-oh. Yeah. I could be Cotton-Eyed Joe. I just remembered, David has to be the one question I wanted to ask you guys. You'd be Little Mac. You'd be great as Little Mac. Are you kidding?

That's your star vehicle. A Kid Icarus. I've been playing Smash, and I'm like, man, like, Ness dresses a lot like me. Yeah, Ness has your vibe. Who's your Smasher? Who's your fave? I've been playing as Ness most of the time. You're a Ness?

Oh, God, you're horrible. No, that's not true. Ness is so complicated. Yeah, I feel like I am playing like Ness most of the time. You're in Ness? Oh, God. You're horrible. No, that's not true. Ness is so complicated. Yeah, I feel like I am playing like Ness most of the time. I play as Pikachu a fair amount. Pikachu is one of my faves. Although my girlfriend always wants to play as Pikachu. Right.

Ness, though, every time I pick him, she's like, you just like him because he wears baseball caps and a straight shirt. Fucking narcissist. He's little. Classically, I like Jigglypuff because I find that makes people go the most insane Jigglypuff is an

infuriating character he's an infuriating character to play that's who I thought Kirby was they're very similar Jigglypuff is in the movie Jigglypuff's in the movie

hell yeah yeah at a bar at a coffee I like that too I once took down the elite four with a fucking

super powered Wigglytuff that was a great moment I always liked taking on the sort of less powered Pokemon this was the final question I wanted to ask you while David's bladder explodes you guys are big fans in general you're fans of things you love stuff not stepping on toes of any things

that you're taking meetings on that you've actually had a conversation about will it into the universe something that you've actually had a conversation about? Yeah, yeah. Will it into the universe something that you've made no progress on? Is there a dream thing? I will say, especially if it's a thing where you're like, no one's ever going to make a movie of that, where you guys have talked about, wouldn't it be cool to adapt this thing that

we love that there probably isn't a market for? That's a great question. Yeah, what's your blank check project? Look, people predicting big box office weekend, you might be getting those calls. You might be your blank check project? Look, people predicting big box office weekend. You might be getting those calls. You might be the blank check guys by the time this episode comes out

where people are saying, what do you got? What's your pitch? Bring it to us. The one that always comes to mind is I'd like to adapt Transmetropolitan. Oh, yeah. That's a cool try. That's the one that... It's the perfect thing

where it's like, you need a big budget. It's not going to be a family movie. It's weird. It's funny. It's weird. It's specific. There's a cat, a two-headed cat that smokes cigarettes. That's one where I read it and get inspired. I've read it

many times over the years. And that, for me, would be a dream project. I don't know who controls the rights. I don't know if there's already a script that exists. I don't know if it would be better as a TV show. But that is one where I look at it and I'm like... You'd like to have a crack at it.

I'd love a crack at that one. Do you have an answer, Banjo? I've always wanted to do a Seven Samurai Magnificent Seven with all of the serial characters? That's a great answer. Captain Crunch. That's a great answer. The toucan from the Fruit Loops?

All of them. Fair enough. So it's like the Magnificent 84. Tony, obviously. You know, they gotta put the team together. Would there be a villain? who's like the most villainous serial character?

Count Chocula maybe? the cop from Cookie Crisp? oh he's a trickster but he's kind of good he's like your rogue if you're doing D&D it might be the kids

who are trying to steal the lucky charms maybe they're the villains yeah right I'm trying to think of any ofms. Maybe they're the villains. Yeah, right, right. I'm trying to think of any of the cartoons. I feel like Captain Crunch could have gone crazy at sea, like Master and Commander. There is a Captain Crunch villain, too. Is there?

There is. There's like a red and black pirate. Sure. To Captain Crunch's blue and white. Every captain needs a, I don't know, whatever. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway.

Hollywood, if you're listening. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway. Hollywood, if you're listening. Yeah. Now is your chance. Hot properties. Night eggs also available as part of a package deal. Not anymore.

It's not available. Oh, okay. It's off the table. It's off the table. It's off the table. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe.

Thanks to Andrew Goodo for our social media. Liam Montgomery for our theme song. Joe Bowen, Pat Rounds for our artwork. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit.

Go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts. Go to Patreon, our blank check bonus features, where we're going through all the Marvel movies. And as always, the Sonic the Hedgehog movie

looks really weird. Fucking weird, man.