Blank Check with Griffin & David - Raising Arizona with John Hodgman

Episode Date: July 20, 2025

Jesus Cock, that’s a hot new episode! John Hodgman returns to Blank Check to chat about Raising Arizona, the Coen’s swerve of a follow-up to Blood Simple that trades in the hallmarks of noir for the hallmarks of Looney Tunes. We’re talking about Nic Cage’s sad eyes, Holly Hunter’s year of iconic crying performances, rest stop public pomade, and people we are glad are dead. It’s a fun time. And yes, there’s yodelling. Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your  pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're not that bad. If I'm as bad as you, what good are we? What good are we to each other? You and me is just a fool's podcast. So you like that because Paradise and podcasts are so... I do. I was doing the exercise last night. I was like, I don't even know if I've ever attempted it despite the fact that we've covered

her so much and she is one of my favorite actors. We've definitely attempted a Holly Hunter, haven't we? Last night, I was like, I might have cracked it. And right as I started to speak, I was like, I think I've lost whatever Rubicon I created to get there. Whatever I had figured out my map, the map has been burned. I don't know who that just became. Look, there's only one Holly Hunter.

This is what, look, this is her ultimate value. Yeah. There is, I don't think there is a Holly Hunter sound alike alive. And I've certainly seen like skilled... If you could do an incredible Holly Hunter. I mean, you know what? I just said there's only one. But I would like this to be a life path for you. To get there.

To get there. To get there. Like I want people going, have you heard Griffin Newman's Holly Hunter? Yeah. They got more than they can handle. I even feel like I've seen good, like, sketch comedians, comediennes, attempt it. Wait. And the best I've ever heard it is, like, you're 60% of the way there.

Women in comedy? Funny women? Women are funny. And I want Vanity Fair to listen up as I announce this. Women are funny! World's greatest Holly Hunter impersonator, Shocks World. Front page dudes. Having stolen a job from a woman. Trump steps down from office.

It's time for women who are funny to have a turn, he says. I know when I'm not wanted anymore. Holly Hunter impressionist elected Grand Chairwoman of Universe? Holly Hunter. Holly Hunter is the best. Oh boy. Has only made one movie since... No, she's made more.

She's only made one movie. David, I was doing this math recently as well. Before this year, 2025, her last credited film was Incredibles 2, in which she rocked the house as Elastigirl slash Helen Parr. Are Incredibles 2 and Big Sick the same year as Big Sick the year before? Big Sick is 2017, in which she is also in Song to Song and something called Breakable U, which I'm not too familiar with.

That's not true, it doesn't exist. But yes, Big Sick, Big Oscar snub is seen as sort of like, is this the start of the next era of Polyhontia? Breakable you which I'm not too familiar. That's not true. It doesn't say Oscar snub is sort of like is this the start of the next era? It was kind of like dang right put Holly hunter in your movie by the way absolutely and then in 2018 She's in credible to which is a voice role, but obviously she's very good that movie makes the men step aside and let the women take the lead But she is undeniably the lead of that movie. She's really awesome. Now, of course, since then she has done a ton of TV. She was on Succession.

Great on Succession. She was. She was. She was great on Succession. She was great on Succession. She was in. I've always had. Okay.

She was in the. Weird Opinion. You ready for it? Yeah. She was great on Succession. See, that's interesting you say, because I think she was great on succession. She was in the showtime show where I think Brendan Gleeson was Donald Trump. You know, there were so many like, the Comey one.

Who did she play in the Comey one? Sally Yates, of course, the acting attorney general. She was in that show Mr. Mayor, which was the Ted Danson. She was a regular on that for two seasons. And she's upcoming in the new Star Trek show. So she's been doing, it's not like Holly Hunter like vanished from the earth. Which is the new Star Trek? The Starfleet Academy show with her and Jemani.

Our friend Tatiana Mazzolini, I believe is on that show as well. That's a work with Holly Hunter. Very exciting. I think Tatiana has likeolini I believe is on that show as well. Very exciting. I think Tatiana has like a guest role or something. Yes, but I... As does, I think, Giamatti. Sure, but I believe I got dispatches of Got to Work with Hunter today. Which was blowing my mind. Holly Hunter, a lead in that show?

But she's the lead. She's the lead. Yeah. a lead in that show? But she's the lead. She's the lead. I was just wondering why has she not led a prestige television show? Didn't she do, was it called Saving Grace? She did a TV show. But that was at a weird point where it was like the closer had gotten really big.

An actual prestige TV was rising, but the other networks hadn't figured out how to make some things that were actually good. Three seasons of State of Grace. Which I'm sure was aggressively okay. My... I think it was... whatever. My question was, what is the film that she made this year that broke the streak of Holly Hunter not being in movies? I can tell you that the character...

Has it come out already? It's come out. I can tell you that the character she played was named Madeline Vance Fuck why do I know that name? Madeline? You don't I don't know it was this a straight to streaming movie It was I mean, I believe it got a some sort of perfunctory perfunctory Theatrical showing tell me the streaming provider, please Netflix well that could be anything Perfunctory? Perfunctory theatrical showing. Tell me the streaming provider, please. Netflix. Well, that could be anything. Anthelm advance.

Netflix. Give me the title. I don't know. Well, I can tell you that the film's budget was $320 million. So that seems like the kind of movie... She's a voice in the electric studio. No, no. Flesh and blood.

Is she like a senator or something? I don't know. You think I watched that? She was a senator in Drink the Superman. In the Granny's history. You think I, a paid film critic who's supposed to watch movies, has seen one second of the Electric State? Well, you have written The Nutmobile, right?

What is that? Mr. Peanut in the film, voiced by Woody Harrelson, rides around in what he calls The Nutmobile. Which is a giant peanut with wheels But also is what a lot of people call their private parts A lot of people is maybe not true take a ride in my nutmobile is very stationary The wheels are off. I just kept on blocks in the yard There's a five below is just lousy with with mountains of remote control Nutmobiles that I keep getting texted people being like,

have you seen this shit? And I'm like, yeah, I was on this beat months ago. Yeah, you were an early adopter of a nutmobile. Just insane that Holly Hunter returned. What is the movie? It's called The Electric State. It's a Russo movie. Oh, that's the one.

Yep. Oh, excuse me. With the nutmobile. Right, yeah. It was a big blockbuster starring Chris Pratt and Yeah, it was the most popular movie of all. Millie Bobby Brown, right Directed by the Russo brothers I venture to say no blocks were actually but

There's a big pile of blocks not even a chip no offense to anyone who worked in the film I would like to be I would like to work again Smidge of offense and some of the people who works on that film having not seen it. I'm not In fact, I'm gonna put a little tiny bit of offense. And in fact, I would say this, if anyone involved with that movie at the upper levels felt good about what they did, they would not be returning to Marvel as quickly and loudly as they are. I assume so.

Holly Andre, yes, I have actually recently, for whatever reason, gone on a couple similar rabbit holes of especially actresses over the age of 40 where I'm like, huh, quietly, that person has not been in a movie in eight years. There are a lot of people who it feels like there is a pre-pandemic cutoff and I go like, oh, fuck, did Hollywood kick them the curb? And you're like, no, just streaming bullshit. It's right. It's the rise of a certain kind of television where it's like, they're not not working. They're working. It's just they've been diverted to this.

Like, I think Catherine Zeta-Jones has not been in a movie since Red 2. If I am not mistaken, and yet she has done 10 TV shows that don't exist, including one for Facebook Watch. She was the lead actress. I don't know what you're talking about. Because it's not real. You're talking about Queen America. Correct. I thought the name of the show was Facebook Watch.

That was the platform. The last film that she made was... Well, actually it was the... Probably not released in America. Dad's Army in 2016. Okay. When is Red 2 red 2 is? 2013 and that is the second most recent movie. She's maybe she has done of course, uh played olivia

to haveland, yes feud Uh, she played the cocaine godmother in some tv movie of cod of I wasn't not called cocaine godmother. Yeah. Yeah Uh, she was in something called prodigaligal that part of the cocaine bear universe. Yeah That was a Fox show that ran for two seasons She of course was on the national treasure Disney plus show tying back into why is Disney going out of their way to make sure They never make a national treasure three. Why are they not fucking begging? Nicholas Cage on his hands and Neil's knees?

Oh, Nicolas Cage is in this movie too, by the way. Right, he is in this movie. That's the bridge I'm building. And of course, we have to acknowledge you played Morticia Adams in Wednesday, but just in two episodes. Yeah. Because Wednesday's mostly at camp in that show or something? Yes.

We, right before this episode started, we're talking, giving spicy Star Wars takes that we never want to say on mic. Never will say on mic. Never will say on mic. Because talking about Star Wars on the internet is a, writing the rain depths. It's a wonderful trip to feedback. But it was looping all the way back around to an on-ramp into discussion of this movie and I said we need to start recording right now so we can take this energy and talk about

it. I lost it, sorry. You refer to it as perhaps your favorite line in all of movies, certainly your favorite line in this movie. David was talking about Yoda and he had some extremely hot takes on Yoda that I will not repeat. Yeah. Legendary stick man.

Yeah. Walking stick. True. It's funny you mentioned Yoda because it brings us around to this movie that we're going to talk about and one of my very favorite lines in movies. What was he wearing? Jammies. What was on his jammies?

I don't know. Yoda's and shit. Yoda's and shit. Yoda's and shit. They had Yoda's and shit on them. That line shot through me like force lightning. I have talked many times in this podcast about how one of my favorite lines in the history of movies isn't super bad Where the two cops?

Rogan and Hager are doing Star Wars impressions to amuse McLovin in the back seat and They're clearly not getting a big enough response and hater turns around and goes, you know Yoda Yoda from attack of the clones It's a good joke and the specificity of from attack of the clone not from Star Wars. No Tack of the clothes Yoda from attack of the clones gets me and it does I had a similar jolt to this line That I've had every time I've watched this movie, but it hit Hard fresh again last night and I was just like is any kind of joke that sort of Throws Yoda off the hump gonna get me

It's not like if there's a Yoda impression in a movie or someone does the backwards talk right or they go like your nutsack Looks like Yoda anything like that. I'm immediately rolling your nutmobile looks like thank you You're yoda, but there's something there's a commonality between those two jokes, right? Yoda's and shit. It's just, I mean, look. It's a perfect joke because it's like, yes, that's where Yoda has made it that far in the pop culture to sort of be in his brain. But like not like, you know, Yoda, it's almost like how like parents would call all video games Nintendo, you know

Thank you. That's what the two jokes have in common. They're both people who know what Yoda is Yeah, kind of their understanding of what Yoda is is a little off What look they assume that other people are on the exact same level as them? I think my favorite line in Raising Arizona is, you know, bees blow up in funny shape cells. She's like, no, unless around is funny. Oh, unless around is funny. Really good.

But let me say this. Let me take you on a trip back through time, please. Hey, what is the name of this podcast? Yeah, can we introduce the podcast? It's a blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their

careers and are given a series of blank checks to make Whatever crazy passion projects they want As long as their seed can find purchase sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. That is my favorite line in the movie This is a mini series on the films of Joel and Ethan Cohen both together and separately It is called Pod Country for Old Casts. Probably. Probably. Probably.

And today we're talking about Raising Arizona, undeniably their guarantor. And I found an interview quote from them in 2000, before O Brother came out, where they said, that's the last time we made a movie that actually made everyone an amount of money that they felt good about. And it is interesting to think because they've been pretty consistent Right that point normally they would make probably enough that no one's mad at them. They become I would say so

Minted after a while that even their less successful films. No one's losing money on them, right? But after this movie there is a run of like all of their movies basically Barely break even or lose a little bit of money, but everyone's kind of like yeah But those guys are so good that they keep giving them small budgets And they were like this was the last time a studio gave us money and the return on investment worked It's called raising Arizona raising Arizona asked me Asked me if I like this movie Who's our guest our guest gentleman John Hodgman of the Judge John Hodgman

podcast. And the brand new podcast on Maximum Fun. What? The Pluribus motto, Janet Varney and I discuss all the mottos, mammals, monsters, and beverages of the states and commonwealths and districts of this country currently known as the United States. We'll see where it goes. We love Jane of Arnie. Passing future guests. Terrific. Yes.

Season two is out now. I shall also list as a credit, of course, Dick Town, still streaming on Hulu for the time being. Starring Griffin Newman. And what about that podcast you did about iClaudius? I'm just going to start bringing out Hodgman credits. There is a whole podcast that I made with Elliot Kaelin about the British 1970s historical mini-series I, Claudius.

I, Claudius. And let's call it I, Potties. I hate to list credits that are going to hurt you, that bring up open wounds, but of course also the author of Medallion Status and Vacationland, which sadly were never published in any format past Hardback. Library editions only. I hate to jump, and large print obviously. Absolutely.

I hate to correct you, Griffin, but they're both available in paperback. If that were true, I would have heard about it by now. On a bargain table near you. I would have heard about it now. I listen to so many podcasts. Surely multiple copies in a little free library, waterlogged with rain near you.

John Hodgman, what were you going to say? Ask me if I like this movie. John Hodgman, do you like the film Raising Arizona? I love it so much! Would be funny if you didn't like it, and we were finding out right now. That was all underlined for your movie. Yes.

In case people haven't seen this movie. You should go see it Yeah, go see it run out to your local multiplexes Go find a copy. No, you have to run to find the copy and the camera should kind of catapult after you in this kind Of amazing way that you can't believe right? You wanted to take us back through time. Yeah, I will take you back through time for a moment First of all, I just want to take a look put a pin in this. Yeah, I will take you back through time for a moment. First of all, I just want to take a look, put a pin in this. Yeah. You call this undeniably their blank check movie. I believe they're guaranteed. They're guaranteed towards the movie that gets them because this is only their second

film. Creative freedom and more money. I think financially. Yeah, there is an argument to be made. Yeah. Critically. Critically, I would say that their guarantor was Blood Simple that allowed them to make this. And after they made this, my memory at the time was that people were like, I don't know about these guys. Look, I agree with you. And the career is kind of weird in how it built. And a lot of what we keep talking about in this series

is that they were given time to grow in a way that the industry does not really support anymore. But I think it was the combination of the two of Blood Simple is heralded as these guys are major, these are careers that are going to be undeniable, so we gotta give them space to do something. And they're given the freedom to make Raising Arizona, which then makes enough of a profit

that even if people respond to this film, and I was looking at the reviews at the time, and they are so weird. Well, it's reviews that I think they would get maybe all the way till Fargo of like some raves, but some people being like, all flash, all style, like where's the, you know. The thing that surprised me in how how stated it was is This movie is so mannered it like snuffs out any possibility of being funny, right? Like rather than being like this style makes the movie funny, but the things frivolous They were sort of saying like it's so overdone that like there is a void of laughter now. Let me say this yes to those like there is a void of laughter. Now, let me say this. Yes. To those critics, I mean, it's true.

They went weird fast after Blood Simple. And basically went, let's do the exact opposite of what everyone loved us doing last time. Exactly, and the people who were giving them money, I wonder if they knew that they were basically going to try again to make crime wave. Possibly. Possibly.

I mean, the great. I don't think they did know is my point. No. I think that they didn't understand that there was this element of Whackadoo in the Coens that is not apparent in Blood Simple, which I, by the way, watched at 2 AM this morning in preparation. Thank you.

And in honor of my insomnia. But is not apparent in Blood Simple and is wildly apparent in this movie. in preparation. Thank you. Sure. And in honor of my insomnia. Yeah. But is not apparent in Blood Simple and is wildly apparent in this movie. Yes. And then it modulates between those two modes throughout their career in a way that I find absolutely compelling.

But I will go back, I will say this, to critics at the time, I was there. Yeah. I lived it. Mm-hmm 1987 Do you remember the crowd response going to see this movie? Yes people were into it very into it now I saw it at the Harvard Square Theatre. Yeah, I'm a coastal elite Hey, a lot of smarty pants is in the room. Mm-hmm Charles Diggs my high school pal, perhaps the smartest of pants is

Yeah, and I were like, what are we going to do of an evening? Yes. Let's go see a movie. Went into raising Arizona. Yeah. I can, I still get chills thinking about, I had no idea what I was going into. That, yeah. And I was saying there.

That was a movie I wish I could have seen in theaters opening weekend where you're just like. Really? I like Nicholas K. Jordan or Holly Hunter or John Goodman or yeah I feel like this movie doesn't really yeah yeah well you know I love Williams Forsythe well I know yeah you're a big fan of the God is in Dead series yeah and also flat top forgot about that he was flat top but like I'll just the electricity that I felt yeah with that Yoda's in line Yoda's and shit line

Yeah, was very very powerful because you talk about on this podcast movies that don't exist uh-huh 1987 Star Wars did not exist we were talking about this I feel like fairly recently with geth a decade after Star Wars the most fallows the forgotten dead period of Star Wars where people are kind of just like scraping for it It's like the equivalent of making an old yellow reference or whatever where you're like that old thing that we use a shorthand And of all of the Star Wars references that they might have made Yoda's there could have been anything in shit on there. Yep Boba Fett's and shit right Skywalker's and shit. They knew Yoda's was the funniest. Lobots and shit. Not just linguistically. Yeah.

But even Joel and Ethan Cohen would look at Lobots and shit and go, no, it's dial it back. Right. Yoda's. Right, it has to be, right. Making Yoda the butt of a joke in itself is really funny. Yes. And then also I felt profoundly seen by that line.

Yep. And by, and this, I wouldn't even say that I was seen in this movie in terms of my love of this kind of storytelling because I didn't know that it created that love in me. And the only, the other moment of sheer electricity, and this is good because I'm bringing us to the beginning of the movie, that long opening narration. And then cutting to the beginning of the movie. Good. That long opening narration.

And then cutting to the credits. And the yodeling and the raising Arizona, hitting the screen at 11 minutes in. It has that feeling that I felt. My memory is I stood up and gave a standing ovation in that moment. But the theater truly was electric. The Harvard Square Theater.

I don't think it's there anymore. But it was an art house. It's also where I saw Swimming to Cambodia and The Princess Bride. Sure. Late 80s classics all. It has the feeling of what I often only now get in the modern era from the good Mission Impossible movies, where when they light the fuse, you're like, fuck right, they haven't even done that yet. Right. Right, that feeling that Raising Arizona

is going at like eight trillion miles per hour and 11 minutes, it's like, by the way, here are the opening credits. You're like, oh my God, you are like playing, like you're pitching a perfect game so far. I also think- And can I just say this, cause I'll forget it. Eight million miles, a trillion miles an hour

describes this movie. And yet at every point in the movie, you feel like they're taking their time. Yep. There's nothing rushed about it. No, the beginning of the movie, you are like, wow, is this going to be like this breakneck throughout? Is it all a montage? Right.

Is it truly a Looney Tune? Yes. And then it does, you know, manage to sort of shift into a lower gear without it feeling whiplashy. And that yodeling? Yeah. I mean, aside from being iconic, you did it, right? One year old David.

Yeah, it was good. I used to be able to hit those notes. Iconic like DVD menu that you're like, oh, turn it off. Turn it off. It's just like on a loop. Yep, yep. I put my disc in and was like, let me brush my teeth and then I'll start watching it. And I just, I had to hear that yodel

eight trillion times as I got distracted. It's all I listened to walking around yesterday. I didn't even have my AirPods in. You were just surrounded by Carter Burwell and his yodeling equipment. I had a boombox on the subway. Okay, good. But in the moment of seeing the movie, yes, I laughed harder than I'd ever laughed in

any movie. It was genuinely funny. My Charles Diggs felt the same way. I dare say he probably does still. And I remember the audience walking out of there just on clouds. My guarantee point is more that the holy shit these guys are for real only goes so far if you've never made a return on investment, and I think that they did the two parts separately

kind of gave them Yeah the ground and a lot of it as we will continue to cover in this series is they found a couple big champions early on who were just like, we'll keep making your movies. Yeah, you're right. James Jacks. The most important part of their career is how closely it tracks to the premise of this podcast. Yeah.

And we should probably talk about that. But like Circle Films and then Working Title Films, they got companies where they were just they kind of cracked their model of like, you guys are are pros you come in like on time under budget under schedule Great actors want to work with you Like the you have great taste in actors the risk here is low enough It feels like one of these is gonna hit and break through in some way and when you get to HUD sticker proxy It's Joel silver being like from the moment. I saw Raising Arizona It was apparent to me that these guys were going to make the crossover to being hyper mainstream, big-budget comedy filmmakers. Like, he

talks about making Hudsucker as if it was like they were like two steps away from their Ghostbusters and then they would continue to be Ivan Reibman, you know? And I feel like, who knows whether those expectations were conveyed to them. I don't know. But like when Joel Silver comes in, he's like, I knows whether those expectations were conveyed to them. I don't know. But like when Joel Silver comes in, he's like, I've been waiting for your big blockbuster. They're like, terrific. Here's Hudsucker Proxy. Right.

Which is another example of like, it's the crime wave element. Well Hudsucker Proxy is a, you know, it is a crime wave spiritual sequel. Yeah. Joel and Ethan Cohen. Uh-huh. Who are they? Made blood simple without any major investment, of course. Mostly from local dentists and doctors.

Family, friends. Circle Films, however, distributed the movie, as we talked about last week, and they gave the Coens an oral commitment to produce their next picture. And the oral commitment, by the way, the way it sounded out loud was, ah, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. Jim Jacks, who's been discussed on this show before. by the way, the way it sounded out loud was, ah, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo. Jim Jacks, who's been discussed on this show before. While you're narrating, can I do a little,

oh, DeJoy background, I'm sorry. Jim Jacks, who Kevin smacks very beautifully, eulogized, but was this kind of key figure who had started out as a film exhibitor and theater owner, and then eventually becomes a producer, and was this guy who at Universal in the 80s and 90s kept plucking people from Sundance and being like, are you ready to make your studio film? And he is responsible

for Raising Arizona, Mallrats, Days of Confused. Several of these, you've impressed me. Here's five to $10 million to make your strike at a studio comedy. They present Jim Jackson for the screenplay for Raising Arizona. He's happy to see that not only did the Coen plan to follow through on their commitment, but they wanted to sign on for even more Circle films. Jax was kind of afraid... Do the Ode to Joy, that's right. Okay.

What'd you say there? Can I just do the Dossier, please? Jax was kind of afraid that, like, because Bloodsippers was actually hot. I feel like you guys should be listening to me. We are listening. We're multitasking.

Yeah, we're just adding you layers of mannered style that are distracting from the substance of the moment. Yes, exactly. Right? He was worried they'd go for something bigger, essentially. They actually had enough juice that they probably didn't need to return to Circle Films at that moment. But instead, they make a deal for four pictures. Blood, Simple, Raising Arizona, Miller's Clossing, Barton Fink are the total Circle Films deal.

Good for. Yeah. Yeah. And essentially, Jax is basically like, you can decide what you want to make and within reason we will fund it. Like, you know, like, it's, you know, no... studio meddling whatsoever, essentially. Film was, uh, made for about three million dollars, I think? And then three weeks into production, 20th Century Fox put up another three million dollars. Yeah.

Which I don't, you know, I guess to get the distribution rights. Can you imagine spooling the dailies for this thing? Yeah. Right? If you're just seeing the raw footage, you're just like, who the fuck are these guys? And also, who the fuck are Holly Hunter and Nicolas Cage? Pour more money into this. They're onto something.

I mean, I agree with you. Yeah. I think you watch any like raw footage of this Yeah, and you're like something interesting is happening here. Give them three more million dollars Exactly, so people made decisions based on different things then very different. Yeah so Holly hunters because people wanted to make movies people liked movies people like movies like people who made movies didn't hate movies They took pride in fact and, in having completed a film.

If it was their job to make a movie, they were like, yeah, let's do make that movie instead of finding ten ways to not make a movie. Right. Sorry, Dave. And sometimes now these days, ways to un-make a movie that has been made and instead becomes a write-off. Holly Hunter, of course, is an old pal of the Cohn brothers.

And... Former roommate of Franny McDormand. And they had tried to cast her in Blood Simple, and we talked about that. But she basically is always on their radar for this movie, and their other big thing is just, we want to do something that's completely different from Blood Simple.

We do not want something tense, we want something funny, we want a quicker rhythm, and we want Holly Hunter to be in it great instincts They wrote the specific Image of Holly in uniform hurling orders at prisoners. That was like whatever that's their germ of a Idea of a role turn to the right. Yep, but that's immediately identifying a like, Holly Hunter can be the smallest, most like, chipmunk voiced woman in a room

and yet command that level of authority. Right. And you can mine comedy out of that, is like a very, very smart thing for them to locate before anyone else has captured that on film. Now, they are sort of getting, I guess already, pretty much starting with Blood Simple, the question that I feel like they get throughout their career,

which is like, are you making fun of these people or not? Like, the sort of like, you know, you're making these movies about downtrodden folk or poor folk or criminals or, you know, like people on the fringes. Or then once you get to Fargo, like, honest Minnesotans. And it's like, are you guys... you guys elitist bullies? Yeah. Yeah and Obviously, I think raising Arizona is one of their most like plainly open-hearted and sympathetic films We and it's like it's all right here. Look we've recorded a lot of the episodes in this series already

I is a recurring thing that we go back to of like the strongest sort of like ideological It is a recurring thing that we go back to of like the strongest sort of like ideological Vain you can find across all of their films is the belief in like Individual people right right right a massive distrust of systems Yeah, but like that a good person is kind of the most valuable thing on the planet Yeah, they value decency yes like for as much critique and shit eating that they were... I don't think they ever ate the shit, but they were offered shit to eat.

Uh-huh. For being arch, for being satirical, which they never were. Right? And for being mannered and reserved and stylized. And these were their action figures they were playing with, not real people. In fact, they with not real people. In fact, they're profoundly real people,

and they are all treated with incredible sympathy. The Coens, a lot of interesting quotes that JJ's dug up here from interviews over the years. This is from Joel. People have a problem dealing with the fact that our movies are not straight ahead. They prefer The Raising Arizona, which is about a couple of shmoes

in a trailer for Coen of a Kid. The arrival of bounty hunter Hunter from Hell interrupts the comfort level people have with their world, but we feel a strong emotional connection to these characters. We're not laughing down at them. And this is also from Joel, where he's like, you ever seen a movie where someone gets shot and the squib goes off and blood runs down and you get a reaction? It's movie fodder. In a different way, a baby's face is movie fodder too. Right? You know what I mean? Like, they all start with,

it's a baby getting kidnapped, but they start with, it's a couple. There's a circumstance. You know what I mean? Like, and then they're like, well, baby, like, that will get blood running, right? You know? It'll make people blood simple. That's true. And they did think about that at all times.

But I feel like there's some incredible baby face acting in this movie. That's what I'm saying. And like the image of a car stopping short and almost hitting a baby is so, like, it makes your, the whole body sit up, right? You know, like- But also, the image of the baby pulling its own hood down, like, I don't want to see this, is just like, on an animal level level one of the funniest things you could possibly absolutely what if a baby had a day out well the hijinks that would be sue yeah

the chaos that well I'm not saying a day out like at a nursery I'm saying like no no big apple like a big apple right but surely he stays ground level and I don't mean he's not gonna crawl his way up to the the tallest steel beams what he That was a movie that as a kid I was like this is one of the eight or nine most important films ever made right What is the country is it Malaysia? There is one country where babies day out It's like still the highest grossing film of all time and it's universally like everyone's like can get that right the baby But one country it has a

disproportionate reputation it is It just says it's a popular film in South Asia, okay And it was remade several times in different like South Asian countries, but I'm not seeing the specific thing You're talking there's one country. I'll figure it out at some point. I do just want to call out, at the time of this film, Joel Cohen engaged to marry Frances McDormand. I believe they get married the year this film is released, but obviously in the time between Blood Simple and this, their love has flourished. In 1995, they adopt a child. Oh

Sorry, and we were talking with The great rates and Tory and Jordan fish last week guess on on our previous episode Yes about this whole feeling of like or are the Coen's like dispassionate? Are they elusive? Are they making these movies at arm's length aloof? Yes, Joel has this like first marriage that is rarely talked about that falls apart before they write Blood Simple, right? Which is all about being stuck in bad marriages, right? And obviously that situation did not heighten to murder attempts, but there's something there that feels like an extrapolation of an energy of an internal struggle, right?

In the same way where it's just like he he's marrying the woman he's gonna be with to our present day, and seven years, eight years after the release of this film, they adopt a child. There is something in the mix of this movie that is clearly, if not autobiographical, is at least like touching on clearly conversations, feelings of the future. But here's the thing that makes,

that story makes me think about. Uh-huh. Even to this day, we among the people who love the Coens a lot, if not the most, are still sort of making arguments that like, you know, they're human beings. Yeah. Right. And kind of being like, I think this is what's going on with them. You know, not like, oh, they've talked about how this is what's going on.

But this was Ray's point of just like, you can like draw analogs to even the limited information we know about their lives, right? There's still a lot of extrapolation there in the middle. They're not particularly secretive about their lives. No. But they're also not overly candid. But I mean, sure, because they're, and they are literal human beings. Smart.

Who have emotions. To not overshare shit. Yeah. And, but, you know, and yet I think that one of the reasons that this movie and some of their other movies, that they were, that they were held at arm's length even to this day, because people felt like they were being held at arm's length by them. Yes. And that their virtuosity as writer, director, producer, editors, the absolutely innovative way that they approach story,

structurally and then visually as well, their ability to get these incredible actors and to spot them before other people have spotted them, it's all very intimidating. And I think that, and they are very stylized and they are very mannered. And so I feel like we're still making this argument, like, well, you know, Joel Cohen and Frances McDormand,

I mean, they have human souls. I mean, not have human souls. I mean, not to be base about this, but there is a degree to which they feel like space aliens. Where like, these two funky looking guys who kind of stand stoically. And the work is not one to one representation of what's going on with them emotionally.

It's being transformed and iterated and changed. And I interrupted you and I apologize. No, no, no, but I think it makes people assume, and also what you're saying, that they were so virtuosic from the beginning, where it was like, where did these guys fucking learn how to do all of this perfectly, right out of the gate? And even the way that people talk about them directing,

you know, the thing that all their collaborators talk about, the actors who work with them for the first time are like, they really are the two-headed director. It is bizarre where one guy will come up and give you a note and walk away, and the second guy will come up from a different room and finish the sentence. You know?

And even that is like, what is this weird communication between them, between, you know, the fucking universe or whatever, that I think makes people is like, what is this weird communication between them, between, you know, the fucking universe or whatever that I think makes people feel like, are their movies like them studying mankind from a remove, right? Are they looking at us through a telescope in space and then sort of like pulling levers? Well, I mean, one of the reasons it really resonates, David hates when we analyze movies on this podcast.

His two least favorite things are analyzing movies and talking about the career arcs of directors. And I will say recently we've been buttoned up against this as a little bit of an issue. David? Yes? I'm a pale man. Okay. I'm not the pale man.

No, but your skin... A creature that could only come out of the wild imagination Whatever you're doing a different pale bit I was like about the panel man with the guy with the eyeballs in the hands Talking to me. It's very pal man. I'm a pal man. The point is all Summer every summer I'm on edge I don't want to get burned just even 30 seconds of direct exposure sunlight could get me burned and There's very little I can do to prevent it which is why I want to do everything I can to prevent getting burned by my wireless deal. Yeah you're you're don't want to just get burned by the Sun you also don't want to get

burned by the wireless deal because I was setting up yeah you're planning your beach trips and your BBQs that's what I'm talking about right that's the thing I love doing but if my wireless bill is holding me back I'm talking about. wedding over their data overages and their surprise charges. You're going to be chilling literally and financially. Griffin. David, the words you just threw at me, they're like aloe vera on the burns I have left over from my previous wireless provider. All plans come with high speed data, unlimited talk and texts delivered on the nation's largest 5G network.

You can use your own phone. You can bring your own phone number, all your existing contacts. So what happened here? They don't make you use someone else's phone. That would be really inconvenient if it was a good deal, but you had to borrow someone else's phone. That would be very annoying. Look, if I needed this product, it's what I'd use.

This year, you can skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just $15 a month at MintMobile.com slash check. That's MintMobile.com slash check. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month. Limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra.

See Mint Mobile for details. That is mintmobile.com slash check. I was thinking about delayed opening credits. Yeah. The legacy of delayed opening credits a lot. I hope you're gonna make the point I hope you're gonna make. Well, first of all, obviously this podcast would not exist were it not for Raising Arizona and the delayed opening credits

habit. Yeah. But you're wearing a hat. John, thank you. I was teeing this up and I got sidetracked. The listener at home or in the car or wherever you are, and the D-van where you recreate, can't see that...

Riven is wearing a very specific hat. A very specific hat. I wasn't sure if he caught it. On perhaps the one year anniversary, or close to it, of us going to the movies together to see a movie called Hundreds of Beavers. You and I have an ecstatic in-theater experience, a film I talked about a lot last year in our Blankies awards this year

Yeah, but a similar like where the fuck did this come from who are these people? But that is a movie that takes I believe one full hour to get to the credits I saw that film twice in theaters and both times the audience applauds because the magic trick of like oh fuck I some I hadn't even gotten to the opening credits that you hadn't done that yet. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great feeling And that's that's a great feeling. And that's a movie that's similar to what I imagine seeing Raising Arizona in theaters felt like. Yeah.

And Edgar Wright talks about this as like the most important movie of his life, and you feel the influence of it so much on all of his work that he sees this and goes, you can make movies like this? That's how I felt, and I'd never made a movie by the way. Right. But I know from seeing the movie, you can make movies like this if you aren't lazy and tired like me But I mean like you can do whatever you want

I had never considered the possibility until this moment that movies could be made this way and even though Star Wars Didn't exist at that time. We were already I think in the beginning of the stranglehold of the hero's journey on screenplay writing, both popular and artistic. And here was a movie that was destabilizing precisely because it doesn't follow a pattern that you understand. You're getting a whole pre-story before you get to the credits. Then it changes tone or it slows down.

It has these wild comedic sequences that are basically before you get to the credits. Then it changes tone or it slows down. It has these wild comedic sequences that are basically Looney Tunes. Your heroes of the film are sensibly doing a pretty awful thing. Yeah. For very emotionally valid reasons. And then Randall Tex Cobb drives a motorcycle from hell into it.

And I remember people critiquing it then and revisiting these critiques. It's like, well, now I don't know if this is even real. Yes. I'm like, of course it's not real. It's a movie. Saw this in so many reviews at the time. Well, I don't even know what reality

this film takes place in. I don't know if there's a fantasy or what. Do they want us to take it seriously? David, how was your pee? Yeah, great. Flannery O'Connor and William Faulkner are influences on them. They say they specifically took the phrase,

Warthog from Hell from Flannery O'Connor. Preston Sturgis. And then Pumbaa took it from them. Preston Sturgis is obviously an influence on them. They say Palm Beach story in particular, the manic energy of that film, a masterpiece in every single way. And you guys might not have realized this, but because you haven't mentioned it all, neither have I.

Cartoons. Ethan Cohen says, We thought about those characters who rebound and collide. Simply their speed of movement, we tried to refine the spirit of animation you find in pinball machines. He's got the Woody Woodpecker tattoo. The hairstyle is a very deliberate Woody Woodpecker homage. The Pecker tattoo, the hairstyle is a very deliberate Woody Woodpecker homage.

Cage was very, very disciplined, focused, intense about the idea that his hair had to match the relationship to the character's energy in the scene. That there's a direct correlation between hair height and how cartoonish he becomes. And yet, even though he identifies as the outlaw, I mean, like, even though he identifies as the outlaw, right? And he's like, isn't my son a little outlaw

and I'm a little outlaw and everything else? He doesn't have it in him to be a Bugs Bunny or a Woody Woodpecker. No. He's too nice. Yeah. He's too decent, ultimately. He can't say, am I a stinker?

It's funny that- Aren't I a stinker? I feel like when they talk about this movie now, both the Coens and Cage. I'm talking about the characters too, it's not Cage, funny. I stinker. I feel like when they talk about this movie now both the Coen's and cage I'm talking about the characters. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like they they talk about Wiley Coyote Right. Yeah, and Wiley Coyote is in pursuit of a thing Yeah that much like them wanting to steal the baby You're like isn't this gonna harm other people when you do this? And yet the pursuit seems so pure and not malicious and driven by these unquenchable human needs.

And also they're just constantly getting fucked with. Even though Wile E. Coyote is the aggressor, he is the pitiful, empathetic character because you're just like, this guy's getting it from all directions and also much like Cage, there's just some kind of inherent sadness baked into the design of this character. The saddest eyes in cinema. That's right I was just gonna say they really made a lot of those eyes and really found

the sadness. What if Wiley Coyote who is silent instead has the inner monologue of the fucking Flannery O'Connor you know like that is the brilliant characterization of this movie is like this guy's got like a poet's soul. Yeah, and you know, David, as you were saying, like people are like, well, how did they learn to do this? I don't know, they read books and saw movies? Yeah.

And interpreted it? Yeah. Well, no, but you're like, you know, this is inspired by Preston Sturges, it's inspired by Flannery O'Connor. It's like, you know. I think the Coen brothers have the juice. I'm going to say it. This is their first film with Donna Isaacson, who is an early casting director that they work with, works with them on the next three films too. Also worked with Danny Boyle later on. She made some quite good discoveries

in the casting of this film. Oh, really? I didn't notice anyone in this movie that really had an enduring career. It's interesting. Donna Isaacson, this is a great quote from her. I will say, anytime I talk to a casting director, pretty much the greatest people on earth to talk to, if you care about movies in a certain way. Think about the Coen brothers as they embrace a concept and a place in a world and they're completely faithful to that world.

If you don't hear the music of the script, you're not right for it. You have to hear it. That's dead on. Nicholas Cage quickly takes the film's story in tone. Not shockingly. Like, truly not like, you know, really, like, he heard it. He says he understood where the humor was, what beats musically to hit. Other people considered Willem Dafoe. Interesting. Right off of like Platoon, essentially.

Would have been too dark. Probably. You think? Would have been a little too scary. Yeah, I mean, even Willem in whimsy mode usually does have a hint of malevolence. Willem holding a baby, your immediate thought is, is he going to eat that baby? Yeah, I mean, it's like... And it doesn't matter the context the movie has built around the character.

It's like, instead of casting someone with the saddest eyes in cinema, what if we had H.I. McDonough have retractable jaws like Alien? The meanest teeth in cinema. Kevin Costner and Nicolas Cage had the same agent at the time, Ed Limato of William Morris. And the agent was like, both of my guys are too big for this movie. Like, essentially, both of my guys are hitting right now. They're about to be big stars.

They don't need to be doing a tiny movie like this. And they certainly don't want to audition for it. Exactly. Kevin, Cage essentially, a junior agent convinces Lamato to let Cage meet the Coens, but not read. Yeah. And I guess...

It's a status thing. Yeah, it's so annoying. I guess that was sort of enough for the Coens. But then Costner is so determined, he agrees to read without telling his agent. He like surreptitiously reads for them. Costner really wanted this, which is fascinating. That's red opposite Holly Hunter. Then Cage hears about this. So Cage is like, fine, I'll read, you know, like they start to fight for it and Cage gets the role. Obviously, a perfect like Cage must have this.

Oh, absolutely. I don't Costner getting this role his entire career is probably different. He might be okay. I don't know. When we did our customer series, we talked about the Sulverado thing, right? And how much he loved playing that kind of Rapscallian character. And basically, right after that, he is pushed,

not against his will, but they're like, congratulations. You are the grand oak tree of America. Yeah, you're the new Gary Cooper. Right. And I think that he was still in this point where he's like, can I play the fucking fun, dangerous guys? Can I be ha ha ha ha ha Woody Woodpecker? Yes. Now, I think Costner would have been...

I don't want to say too sincere, but I think it's the thing that Cage gets. He would be too grounded. Yes. And the expression... I think Costner can be funny and I think he can be big, but he's best at sort of understated, you know, kind of off the shoulder kind of stuff. Look, Bull Durham.

He's phenomenal. Okay, here's a movie where, obviously, he plays a different kind of, he's not a rap scout. Well, he is a rap scouting. He is. He's a rap scouting. A movie full of verbal dexterity like this movie. Like lines that are big meals. Yeah. And also that are big meals.

Yeah. And also featuring Nathan Arizonas in that movie too. Yep. Before he died at the age of 40. Incredible. That is the hardest 40 that anyone has ever lived to. Yeah, but you know, he- Trey Wilson is the actor.

But Bull Durham is a, even though it's a Whackadoo film with some real funny parts to it, it's not a cartoon fantasy. It's also built around Costner's stoic magnetism, which this movie needs to be fucking propulsive. And I also think for how much Cage has been on the record talking about his theories and his principles on acting, right? And how he thinks that acting can be impressionistic, right? And that is his approach.

He thinks about rather than just like embodying a character in the reality honestly that he's like, I'm a piece of equipment, I'm part of visual storytelling, it doesn't need to reflect reality, it needs to reflect a feeling or an idea, and I think that's the part of him that reads the script and not only gets the language of it But understands visually what he needs to be in the movie Yeah, and how to manipulate his body and do things there's a physical rubberyness because he's like matches the looney-toons

He's like what I'm doing In relation to these fucking wide-angle lenses is a big part of it, rather than like, what is my motivation? My motivation is, I know what this shot should look like. Right. Now, the Coens, as you guys may or may not know, are not the kind of guys who are like, yeah, do whatever you want. Mm-hmm.

They are like, read the lines. We have a pretty autocratic, you know, sense of this. They never work with Cage again. Nope. And it's not like they... I don't think... they did not get along, basically, at all. They kind of talk about it in this way of, everyone's like happy now.

Cage talks about it the same way, where he's like, you know, they have that meeting, they're like, hell yeah, this guy gets it. And then in classic Cage fashion, he shows up to set every day and it's like, here's 10 new ideas they had. And they're like, right, and what we want you to do is what we wrote and here are the storyboards. And he's like, but what if I did that upside down? And they're like, right, and what we want you to do is what we wrote and here are the storyboards.

And he's like, but what if I did that upside down? And they're like, right, and what we wrote and the storyboards are what you should be doing. And they've talked a lot about, you know, they start out with $3 million, they end up with $6 million, whatever. The way they make this movie look this big and this great and this tight on that budget

is they were just like obsessive, meticulous planning. Which is their story of their success going forward. And as things go on, they're like, we build a perfect plan and then we're still open to things changing on the day if a better idea comes along. But at this early point and with them getting such a big shot at like the studio big leagues, they're like, we've nailed this down. And the only way this movie's gonna work is if we stick to our plan,

and Cage coming in and being like, what about this dreadlock wig? I think they were just like, Nick, stand there. Have you ever seen the movie Trading Places? I'd like to, Dan Aykroyd on the Amtrak trained this. The frustrating part of it must have been to them that they're like like this guy gets it Right had the meeting he's locked in we're not having to trick him into this performance

We're just like stop throwing out other stuff on top of this people look It's really hard when someone says I know better than you yep, and it's especially hard when they do mm-hmm Like everyone hates to know it all especially when they know pretty much all. Cage is the one who puts the Woody Woodpecker tattoo on, because he's like, I think my character is Woody Woodpecker come to life. And you need the audience to understand, like... The movie's telling you how to watch it. This guy's a cartoon character. The Coens probably tolerated that, because they're like,

if it's just going on your body and you're not going to... You're going to say the lines as we wrote them, okay. But they also repurpose it into something that then thematically matters at the end of the movie. When he tears, yeah. Yeah. Cage used to make little movies called Super 8, well on Super 8 cameras. And so did the Coens when they were, you know, they had, and so Cage said they had this thing

called a Super 8 feeling. They would talk about together. Like when they were doing something that they both were excited by, the Coens and Cage on this movie, they would say, I'm getting that Super 8 feeling. That's so linked also to the fucking like Raimi Brothers, Campbell.

I mean, I wanna circle back to this, but there is like such a continuum, even just within the history of this show of like Road Warrior, Evil Dead, and this movie, you know? Or even you could say, Road Warrior, Evil Dead 2, and this movie all feel like a thing that was happening through connection. Right. Yeah.

The one time they claimed that they maybe were gonna work together again is this movie called 62 Skidoo, which was kind of like a hippie surfer movie that Coens would talk about sometime, that they would be like, it's like a Cold War comedy with about like amnesia and it's like a funny Manchurian candidate and like we want Cage to do that.

So like they never were like, we'd absolutely, and this is in the 2000s if they're talking about this. They have the respect for Cage. Especially when the guy becomes like a fucking $20 million movie star with an Oscar. Right. But it never came together. And obviously Cage's career kind of sputters out in the mid 2000s. We'll talk about this. Reviving. 2010 is really late, late 2000s is when it really hits a wall.

Well, he really hated bees. He hated them. Yeah, that was part of the problem. Had to work with bees. Right. 2010 is really late. Late 2000s is when it really hits a wall. But um... Well he really hated bees. He hated them. Yeah, that was part of the problem. Had to work with bees. We'll talk about this in many weeks from now, but Lady Killers was originally set up as a Nicolas Cage vehicle directed by Barry Sonnenfeld. And it is when Cage, I forget what movie he ends up doing, instead of that drops out that

Sonnenfeld walks away and goes, I should ask my buddies the up doing, instead of that drops out that Sonnenfeld walks away and goes, I should ask my buddies the Coens if they want to do this. I've never seen that movie. I like it. Holly Hunter calls it a very self-conscious movie. She's not wrong. But not in a negative way. She says Joel and Ethan function without their egos or maybe their egos are so big they're

completely secure with anyone who disagrees with them, either way. Frances McDormand's take is, I can't imagine Joel ever making a movie that was actor-oriented, like A Sophie's Choice, where you set up the camera and two actors work together. He sets up the mood, he talks about rhythm. She means that, I think, she's talking about her husband, of course. She loves him and she's worked with him many, many times. But she means that and is sort of like, that's what he does, right?

Like, you know, if you want this experience, you're not gonna get it at the Coen Brothers shop. They're animators in a way. You know, we talked about this as a cartoon. They think of, they're creating a visual and emotional landscape that has timing and performances that they have previst. It's similar to Wes Anderson, where it's not like,

hey actors, what are you thinking? Let's do a blocking rehearsal and based on what you do. I will adjust right and figure out how to film this They're like here's my movie and if I hired you because I trust you yeah And I know you're gonna figure out how to bring humanity to this, but that's your job. I Speaking of that. Yeah, the big jolt of electricity that I had rewatching I've seen this movie many times and it is a movie that one of the My wife is a whole you mean and overwrite and I both love movies We share a lot of taste humble brain, but she doesn't like to watch movies a lot

Sure, because they take time you love watching you will text us once a week and go guys if I have three free hours What should I see? Yeah after yeah, or what should I rent and you know,, it's just one of those things where it's like, do you want to watch something? I don't care, put anything on in the background. But there are a couple of movies where if I put it on, she'll tune right in. She's like, I think I've seen this movie 12 times and I'll watch it another 12. It's an easy, easy, easy. Yeah, like, right. You don't put this on and go like, oh, I'm so exhausted by raising. I had a long day yesterday. I got home late.

It's invigorating. And I was just like, I'm thrilled to spool this movie up at 1130 p.m. But the jolt of electricity that hit me... Yeah. ...this time watching was, oh, this is Wes Anderson before Wes Anderson. Yeah. Yeah. And I had never thought of that, but I'm sure this is very obvious to everybody. But this is a decade before Rush Hour. Yeah. Yeah. And I had never thought of that. I'm sure this is very obvious

to everybody. But this is a decade before Rushmore. Yeah. And it's very, I mean, I, Wes Anderson has his own set of influences, his own set of preoccupations. Obviously, I don't want to take any agency away from Wes Anderson, but it's like, there is a shared DNA, obviously. Yes. And I think same to Shaun of the Dead. There is like, DNA, obviously. Yes, and I think the same to Shaun of the Dead. There is like, right, a generation of guys who are coming up like 10 years after who see this movie and it blows their minds. It sits with them. And especially making a comedy that is this visual.

Yeah. I mean, that's the way Edgar Wright describes it, seeing it and going like, if you can make a comedy look like this, then why aren't all comedies like this? And then he said the first time he directed something, he was like, oh, I get why they're not all like this now. It's impossible and it requires you being a genius with the best collaborators in the world. And it also goes against, I mean, it is a completely different kind of comedy

that was certainly now and certainly then as well, there is no, we're talking about it, there's no improvisation. There's no like, yeah, let's just take a fun run at this one. This movie does not have many conventional jokes, even in a way that later porn films do. No, stuff like the balloon line, that's kind of a conventional-ish joke. But yeah, it's not a set-up punchline kind of movie by far.

No, it's a joke in the sense that it's a silly thing that's sad. It's moments. Yeah. That aren't like about build-up payoff which so much of comedy is you know Wish I knew something about it Join the club Only build up, but I someday pay off. I think there was something we've we've been talking around this a little bit, right? Okay, here we go, but that this is sort of like the first generation of filmmakers

Who grew up on Looney Tunes and such? generation of filmmakers who grew up on Looney Tunes and such. Where it's impacting their work. There are people who are working simultaneously and people like Frank Tashlin who started out as a Looney Tunes director and then became a live-action director who then works with Jerry Lewis which then affects Jerry Lewis's directing style when he starts making stuff which of course then radicalizes the French. Like bleeds out and all this way, right? But here's the first generation of directors who grew up watching this stuff,

and there's the bizarre visual language of manic 40s, 50s, 60s theatrical short cartoons baked into their brains. Now those things could do anything because they used a fucking pencil, right? And you could draw anything you imagined. But traditional animation was very limited in terms of camera movement.

It was almost impossible to do. Disney created the multi-plane camera, which was to be able to replicate the idea of camera movement within animation. It was mostly used for establishing shots. Wasn't really used for action or dialogue scenes or anything that was really moving the plot forward. It feels like there are these three movies, like George Miller with Mad Max,

Sam Raimi with Evil Dead, and Blood Simple with the Coens, that are all them trying to infuse a little bit of that sensibility into something that's a little more dramatic. And then on the second movies, they all, with the confidence under their wings heightened and go like I'm gonna try to make a live-action cartoon I want to capture the way those Looney Tunes feel and the big key to all three of them and they talk about how influential Road Warrior was on them and obviously watching Rami do this stuff as their friend and working with him and Seeing how it could be done And this movie is so much fucking with him and seeing how it could be done.

And this movie has so much fucking road work in it. Oh, road work, yeah. Both. And Remy too, obviously. But I think there's something to all three of these director-director teams. Cracking the code on how do you use the camera, the thing that animation can't do, to convey the energy of what animation can do in character right and in reality and like those three movies

unlock something in terms of like This is how you can use the camera to make you feel action in a way that no one has before Horror in a way that no one has before comedy in a way that no one has before The magic those movies is all three of them have elements of the other bleeding into them. But you just watch this and you're like, some of the funniest jokes in this movie are just that this is shot that way.

And they know that, it's not by accident. And a lot of that is Sonnenfeld who like, you look at the early part of his career, one of the few guys to have any level of actual high-level success jumping from DP to director. And the movies, at least the first five or six, that are so good that he directed and didn't shoot, you can see in execution everything he kind of like...

What he... The code he cracked with the Coens of, what's the funniest lens? What's the funniest place to put a camera relation to an actor? What's the funniest camera movement? And I think his innate sense of humor really helped them in that way, understand how to translate that into a language. Yeah, for sure. That's my spiel.

Put the camera under the bed. Put the camera under the crib. Have a baby crawling towards the lens. It's baby Herman before baby Herman. Or around the same time, actually, I think. Yeah. Baby Herman's the following year. 80s were big for babies. And then the... and then have...

and then put the camera under the car and have Nicolas Cage crawl towards it like a baby. Like a baby. And be pulled back by his awful evil doppelganger. Good. John Goodman. John Goodman. I'm gonna say this. He's a good... a good not just a good man a good actor John's great actor. Okay, but I'll hear your argument Obviously he's in you know, he's got small roles in movies

Revenge of the nerds 83 like revenge of the nerds whatever but true stories, which is the year before Yeah, great great movie obviously somewhat undersung at the time I feel like ast Astounding in that. And if it's sung at all, it's sung with the lyrics of Meow Meow. Because John Goodman did that in True Stories when he's trying to remember a song, he goes, Meow, meow, meow, meow. And that was another great moment in my life

when I saw that happen. So True Stories is the year before Raising Arizona, but the Coens are very definitive. We chose him before True Stories was shot. They are basically, we truly discovered John Goodman. He came to our- Fuck you, David Byrne. Parallel thinking.

He came to our set. And it is funny because True Stories is Texas and this is Arizona, but both kind of tales of lonely souls on the prairie, you know I mean? Like they do have somewhat similar energies even though true stories is much less cartoony. I guess More emo. Yeah Yeah, true stories is like based on a bunch of National Enquirer articles I believe was sort of the yeah and sort of the idea of those types of articles, as much as actual articles. But they both sat in a very established

sort of cultural moment of kitschy southwestern Americana, which infected a lot of music and visuals and film at the time. We were talking about this. A fancy smarty pants, hipstery type stuff. Oh, very smart. Like it was fun to exoticizeize for big city folk to exoticize. The American Southwest in particular.

And while it is not, in my opinion, offensive, they are doing an invented dialect that does not exist. Yes. It is a kind of funny exoticization. Yes. It's a cartoon. They're cartoon characters I even think I could I don't know why I'm saying like this movie is making fun of

That it hi, McDonough by saying why is this idiot having these sort of like faux literary profound thoughts, right? Yeah, that it's like a punching down of like wouldn't be funny if this dumb yokel Has this incredibly verbal way of speaking my... The beauty of this guy. Yeah, having was a rocky, a barren place where my seed could find no purchase. Right, they're like... It is an act of...

Yeah, because rural people can't be smart at all. Right. Right. They're just dumb-dumbs. I think the implication is they're making comedy out of how unlikely that is, whereas I think their thing is, imagine a guy like this who no one takes seriously, and what if there's like a universe of emotion and thought inside of him? I feel like Moonstruck, this, and Wild at Heart.

I know he's also got like Vampire's Kiss and Valley Girl, he's got other iconic movies of this year, but those three, which 87, 87, 90, he's doing the same thing in all three where he's like, yeah, he's kind of got the gift of the gab in this weird supernatural way about it. He seems like salt of the earth, or diamond in the rough, or something, but then he'll monologue in this romantic, sincere way

that you can't believe it's coming out of this whack-a-do's mouth. The waters run deep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's so good. He is so good. Here's a good one thing I wanna say, before we talk about cage a little more we were doing prep for the King Ralph show and You made a point that has stuck with me as we've been talking about Goodman for months now sure a year of Goodman for us

I'm here of Goodman, right? that he so Seamlessly quietly in such an unshowy way Adjust his dialect around wherever he's playing. Oh yeah. That you always kind of when watching any movie go like, right, I guess John Goodman is from Arizona, right? Right. Right. Where you're like, he, for a guy you don't think of as being like,

oh, he's like an accent guy, he's a guy who transforms, he does voices or whatever. He just like very, very subtly but accurately off the the cuff adjust to wherever the character he's playing is from Missouri and of course in by birth or whatever But you can be from anywhere you buy you buy him in the bayou you buy him in the Midwest Yeah, you buy him as a city guy, you know a tough talker Yeah, you you buy him when he's eaten fried chicken with you in an open field and he's about to beat you up.

What if he smacks you with a big ol' branch now? What if he wanted to tell you to go fuck yourself but kind of with like, you know, like adding in a little pun? I think he would need to cross-reference with a kind of brash, old-school New York Hollywood producer. Right, sorta old-school Hollywood. They'd have to build a room together batting ideas back and forth. And then I'm at a complete loss. What if he was a king of England? What if John Goodman was the

king? Have you ever considered one of those profound questions? Nice to see you over there. It's great to see you. Yeah. Oh, it's a pleasure to have you on the thanks for the friendlies hat, by the way. You're so well, I should have worn it today. I forgot. It's okay. A rival podcast. It's true. Hollywood Hammer. But I'm just gonna say, I want to say to the listeners, then send me a friendlies hat. And I'm going to just say, I've said it before. And I'll say it again, Jesus cock. That's a hot ass. Hell yeah. Damn it. I gotta I gotta clip that. I gotta use that quote. I really need as a banner on top of the side. Yeah, I'd like to see it embroidered on the back over the ponytail hole in the back of the adjustable cap. You know what I'm saying?

I really like that. That's a hot hat. Yeah. Sims, take it. What year is Valley Girl? Valley Girl is pretty early in his career. It's 83. Okay, and he's done at this point

a couple of the Coppola movies. He's in Rumble Fish and Cotton Club. He's in Birdie. Has Peggy Sue not happened yet? Peggy Sue is the year before. She's not yet married. 86, which he is good in, in like a sort of broad, you know, role, but he's good. I think he is phenomenal in that movie.

I have not seen that movie since I was a teenager. I mostly remember Kathleen, obviously. I think he's truly phenomenal, but it's the classic tale of like Coppola is like, Nick, I got great news for you. I've convinced the studio to hire you for this part. I've been giving you these little side showy character parts, but you're the romantic lead of this movie.

Nick, I got good news for you. Finally in Hollywood, nepotism works. And he reads the script and is like, I find this character boring, I don't news for you. Finally in Hollywood nepotism works Yes, and he reads the script and is like I find this character boring I don't want to do it right and Coppola's like what the fuck are you talking about? And he was like I have like moved heaven and earth here Let me go to the lab and see if I can come up with a good take and he gets back to Coppola And he's like I'm gonna play him like pokey from Gumby Are you talking about but it works it's genius

It's like one of the earliest examples of cage in a sort of leading man leading man role Taking the least conventional route to something that then ends up affecting in a genuine way Yeah, and hitting on real emotions and real thoughts in my opinion But I do think that's kind of a turnkey for him. I also think you talk about the super eight feeling right? Yeah, there is obviously the Coppola family dynasty, the mountain of nepotism that is that family. But also, as he's always quick to call out, he was the son of the black sheep in the family.

Like he was the son of the one guy who kinda didn't figure it out and had the same aspirations in the entertainment industry, as did his mother as well. And so obviously he was close to the cousins who were going on to massive success, but he was like, there was always this energy of like, we're the fuck up side of the family.

And they all almost treated me with a bit of pity. It's like you had been placed in a cage. A Nicholas cage. Over to you, David. The film shot for 13 weeks, certainly wouldn't, a $6 million movie these days would not be getting a 13 week shoot, I don't think. No. In Arizona.

Sonnenfeld, Barry Sonnenfeld, of course, the cinematographer here, I feel like, I mean, as great a job as he does on Blue Blood Simple, this is his, like, calling card movie. Yeah. And as I was saying to my wife last night, who's seen it before, but I was just like, everything about this movie is good, but the way the camera moves was so bananas like people were just like I don't understand how they did this Yeah, and Miller's Crossing is a beautiful looking movie, right?

But is him doing a much more kind of conventional and strained. Yeah, and he's doing other stuff strange He's doing other stuff in this era like when Harry met Sally that is also like gorgeously lensed But this is the calling card movie that yes, I think like makes people trust He probably could direct as well and his entire directing career is really built off of the language He establishes in this movie like right you see Adam's family and men in black in this movie much more than you do Yeah, sure be all of it. Yeah They're all son and folksfeld says, like, they're all a little nervous. They got a real budget this time. Like, this is nerve-wracking.

Like, you don't want to fuck this up in the same way of Blood Simple, the different way Blood Simple is just like, eh, you know, we'll see if anyone likes this. Big note they got at the test screenings. They didn't like the rabbit blowing up. Interesting. I think this is something that Coen's run into once in a while, where they're like, why do you guys care about us wounding animals?

And it's like- Squeezing a frog to a pose. That's the number one thing audiences- They didn't care about the lizard being shot off the rock? Maybe they cared about that too. Yeah. For all we know, that rabbit ran away as soon as that grenade hit the ground. We don't know.

You're right though. It is funny. It's a wascally rabbit. A wascally wabbit. We don't know. You're right though, it is funny. It's a wascally rabbit. A wascally wabbit. Excuse me, you're right. They do work with Carter Burwell again, of course, continuing, obviously, one of the greatest collaborators,

but initially they were like, this movie might not be groovy enough for you, which is, I don't know what that means exactly. He's a rock and roll guy. Burwell said the scores improvise using household objects like peanut butter jars and vacuum cleaner hoses. That's fun. Oh, fucking, yeah. Ben? And and then of course the yodeling what?

Improvise score using peanut butter jars no reaction from you. I mean I love it. I love the inventiveness Yeah, does he ordering some hot hats and The an honest-to-goodness okey named John Crowder did the yodeling Well honest to goodness. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I always thought that it was Pete Seeger, but it's not Pete Seeger's on the soundtrack somewhere But is yeah, I love Pete Seeger, but Carter Burwell. I mean One of the only Composers where I will just listen to the soundtrack John Uh, John Williams level, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of creating mood, tension, uh, world. They feel like wordless operas even listen to on their own.

What is your ringtone? It's the theme from, uh, Tootsie. Peter Bishop, something's telling me it must be you. That is very funny and I can't believe I have never witnessed this go off. Well, that's because it's only keyed to one person in my life. Your wife? Who is a whole human being in her own right and shall remain unnamed. Oh, what a brag.

You know what is really funny? No. That I think about a tremendous amount? Weird that that movie is called Tootsie. She said it was a pocket dial, by the way. Oh, wow. Said everything's fine. We have talked about that a billion times. It's not a character name it's one of like 40 nicknames. I was just listening to this podcast and you said that. Whatever move on. I just want to say also for the record that I was distracted yes

but I was reading Randall Tex Cobb's Wikipedia. Yeah. He's quite a character. Here's the thing about him. Mm-hmm. He was a professional fighter. He a famous chin in many ways and I could kind of tell Yeah, I just his vibe he was he was a professional kickboxer in the 70s Yeah, and yeah famous chin that often Paradoxically overshadowed his incredible nose He's going though. You were doing a headstand shadowed his incredible nose. He is quite a nose. As though he were doing a headstand.

Because that's how the sun would cast a shadow. Yes, yes, yes. But you see what I mean? That nose. And I don't know, were you going to talk about him later? I mean, we must talk about him. I'm sure we'll talk about Randall Tex Cobb. Are we putting a pin in Randall Tex Cobb?

Or pulling a pin out. There we go. We'll blow up this rabbit later. Incredible Joel quote about Randall Tex Cobb. He's less an actor than a force of nature, dot dot dot. I don't know if I'd rush headlong into employing him for a future film. Weirdly, that's the only way you can employ him. This does feel like a film.

You have to head butt him five times before he agrees to be in the movie. This film has Holly Hunter and John Goodman and Frances McDormand. Lifetime, like, co-in-folk, right? But it also does have Nicolas Cage and Randall Dix Cobb where they're like, once was fine! We let the genie out of the bottle and we did not try to recapture it. Well, even M.M.Walsh, who appears in this, and it's his final co-host film, where he always had this kind of chip on his shoulder of like,

why didn't they keep hiring me? And their line was like it was difficult We found our people who were very simpatico and when you find a good man or a hunter hold on to them forever Yeah, it's it I mean it really does It would say something to you as an actor if you do not get invited back because so many people are getting invited back. Yes And of course as we alluded to the the wonderful Trey Wilson Was not invited back because he died tragically at a young age. I would have hoped that they would use him again Yes

He was supposed to be the Albert Finney part in Millers Crossing and died so shortly before production Yes, then he replaces any replaces him like a week before the movie starts. Oh, well then I'm so that was supposed to be I don't know but also clearly that was them being like we want to give this guy like a week before the movie starts. Oh, well then I'm glad he died. So that was supposed to be. Sorry, I don't mean it that way. But also clearly that was them being like, we wanna give this guy like a grand Shakespearean role. I know, he didn't mean that the way it came out. That was a pretty brutal reaction. It was tough. And 20 years of credit boy Miller's crossing.

I knew what I was saying when I said it, and I think I've been appropriately respectful of the talent of Trey Wilson, whose performance in this movie is outstanding. And that clearly... A reflection that they were like, you know what we should do? We should write, like, a fucking media ass role for Trey Wilson.

Because he really crushes the final scene of the film, which is very important to this film, like... Sort of, I don't know. Feeling like more than a confection. Everyone at the time who said that they were not human, that they were arch, that they were making a movie about movies or they were making an imitation Looney Tunes. I mean, they were making an imitation Looney Tunes,

but then they took their Yosemite Sam and made him the most heartfelt voice of morality in the film that sets them on the proper path voice of morality in the film. Right. That sets them on the proper path at the end of the movie, in this case. How could anyone who isn't a humanist land there? You know, and put that in your movie.

And that, I mean, you know, when I think about, look, I adore Wes Anderson. Very, very important movie maker to me. I love so many of those movies. HUMBLEBRACK. That I like him. Yeah, OK, fair enough. And that he's his own person, his own right.

Yeah. A whole person. I spend a lot of time thinking about what are the differences between the Coens' sense of manner and style and Wes Anderson's? Wes Anderson had a lot more, I mean, we're talking about directors that create very specific visual compositions that sometimes they're, I mean, the Coens are, in a way, they initiated meta into cinema in the sense that they were making homages to other kinds of movies.

Yeah. Genres of movies. And the type of movie that constantly reminds you that it is a movie. That it is a movie. Mm-hmm. That we're referencing Preston Sturges in the Looney Tunes, or we're gonna make a gangster film, or we're gonna make this Barton Fink movie, which is itself about movies, that aboutness that so many people take as being cold and reserved.

And even the camera joke in Blood Simple, where the camera is tracking along the bar and then has to jump up over the passed out patron, is a joke that, like, to some people goes, like, holy shit, who the fuck are these guys? And to other people, you're like, why are you puncturing the reality of this movie? Yeah, or you don't even see it.

You're making a thriller, and now you're making a joke that's like, you guys know this is a movie, right? We're gonna make a joke about your understanding of how a camera moves. And you know, Wes Anderson movies have profound human emotion in them as well, and my favorite of his is Moonrise Kingdom, because I think so much of Wes Anderson's movies are preoccupations

with lost childhood, obviously. But I don't, like, for me, this performance by Trey Wilson at the end really like It grounded and humanized everything that had been going on it represented a theme of real emotion. Yeah but just to be able to take that moment and move so seamlessly and and and not The word i'm looking for. They weren't creating a contradiction.

Like their movement between highly stylized and mannered and then highly human and naturalistic was so beautifully done there. Something's happening within the same frame, within the same scene. And another reason people get a hard time getting a handle on them is like by now you know exactly what a Wes Anderson movie looks and feels like.

Yes. But with the Coen Brothers movie, you never knew. They can mix it up a lot. And they would do it on purpose. Yes. And they'd be virtuosic at every level. This is, this sounds like I'm picking winners and losers, like the, like the federal government or something.

Well, I know. But I mean, I just hadn't really appreciated what they, what this movie and what the Coens did in terms of 90s cinema. You know what I mean? Like, first of all, making a movie that could be about, or could be imitating cartoons and Preston Sturges and everything else.

The stylistic or the narrative loop-de-loop that they do in this movie and in other movies. There's no Pulp Fiction without that. Yeah, you know agreed Another movie that banks on you understanding This is a movie right and playing on your knowledge of how movies work and what they should or shouldn't be doing and you know Meta was my language in the 90s. It's and if you know anything about my work, mostly I'm just Riffing on movies and television shows that I've seen, you know what I mean? And I hate to say that maybe the Coen brothers

made that habit respectable for me for a period of time. You know what I mean? But I do think it's respectable. I mean, all we do is make things about the things that we love. I mean, look at the room we are in and the careers we have built for ourselves. The other thing is that while this movie

has a lot of babies in it, it is not about lost childhood, it is about parenthood and the fear of becoming a parent. Yeah, I also think there's something interesting too. Like Wes Anderson doesn't talk about his childhood much. He doesn't talk about his relationship with his father when he's like doing press. Those things are kind of mysterious and yet you watch his movies and you're like, I understand that there is stuff that he is like doing press. Those things are kind of mysterious. And yet you watch his movies and you're like, I understand that there is stuff that he is still working through.

Right? It's weird because, yeah, sorry, go ahead. Even if I can't identify exactly what his experiences are in the same way that like everyone from the beginning knew Spielberg's parents got divorced and he never got over it. Right. And it took a while for us to get more, a fuller picture of what happened there.

It was like, there's a thing here. I realized the other day, I knew fucking nothing about Wes Anderson's dad, and yet we're all like, well, we understand the stuff that he's still fixated on and needing to push through. And the Coens, it is a lot more oblique of like, what made you want to make this now? And is this truly just you riffing on some other genre, a type of movie you like? Or is there some animating idea within this that came out of some personal feeling or experience? And especially because they're two separate people, it is even harder to identify that sometimes.

Yes, their only real thing is they wanted to do something completely the opposite from what's simple. Yeah. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered Their only real thing is they wanted to do something completely the opposite from what's simple. Sorry, nope. But a box fan? Happily yes. A day of sunshine? No. A box of fine wines? Yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now.

Alcohol in select markets. Product availability may vary by regency. App for details. At Grey Goose, we believe that pleasure is a necessity. That's why we craft the world's number one premium vodka in France, using only three of the finest natural ingredients, French winter wheat, water from Jean Sac, and yeast. With Grey Goose, we invite you to live in the moment and make time wait. Sip responsibly. This film is about H.I. Hi, McDonough. Herbert.

Hi, McDonough. A convenience store robber by trade, I guess. A low level. They have a name for him and it's recidivism. Yes. Who meets Ed, Edwina McDonough, when she takes his mugshot over and over again. Little firecracker. Yes.

Ben. They basically have three miscutes. This over the course of the three arrests you witnessed. We got to it. It's an hour and twenty minutes. But the second time he's arrested, he sees her crying uncontrollably, right? Is that the second time? Yeah, she, her fiance leaves her during the... Her fiance.

That, I didn't like that. Really? That was one moment where I was like, you're not treating this character with respect. That was like, it was too funny to not include. Yeah. But that's the one. Joel and Ethan Cohen, I know you're listening. Okay. Go back and make Raising Arizona the special edition.

I think it's funny. It's funny, of course it's funny. I don't think it's a slight of her intelligence. I think it is more about how different ILX process different words, which is a thing I've noticed comes up a lot in their films Yes, like even in fucking hail Caesar when original title, yep when When

Rare moment of studio interference about Alden Aaron, right? He goes I work with actors not rodeo clown. And that's a joke about a guy being so pretentious he says Rodeo wrong, right? And I view Fiance as the inverse of that joke. They love language. It's obvious from everything they ever do. And it's another reason why I got so such, well, there's a literary term for it. I got a hard on for, for their work because, because of their love of language and dialect, even if the dialect is invented, you know. Now we spoke about this, you know, prologue.

A hard on, I'm sorry. I should have said, I have a hard on. David's really happy right now. I can tell David. This prologue. I'm just going to turn away from Griffin. I'll just look at you now. We just activate each other. He pulls me down.

We have each other Ron. This prologue that is breakneck and romantic. Yeah. And sweet and sad. And in my opinion, just I don't know how you don't... How you watch this and you're not, like, so energized by, like, the rest of them. But, you know, like, the whole arc of them falling in love

and, you know, getting together and she can't, you know... Her womb is barren and his seed can find no purchase and they can't adopt and they, you know, like, where you're just like, yes, they're going to be okay. These like twin fires, right? Like, well, I like that there's just some connection that keeps like being tested every time they have one interaction in between sentences, right? It's like they have this moment and then he's like locked up for six months and then he comes back and the moment continues Right and he has this moment of like lashing out at anger at the idea of her finance

Who would ever leave a woman like you that sticks with her is that the next time he's out? She's ready to lock it down and he has a reason to not go back. Right. Yes, and That is so sweet and so powerful and is conveyed so quickly and so meaningfully, so much through these performances, right? But then you have this thing, it is such a good setup for the movie of like, their earnest belief that like, well yes, he's a criminal, but she works in law enforcement, doesn't that... That balance out.

Does that neutralize each other to make them adoptable, but you're like, from this setup, you're like, yeah, you're right. This is an unsolvable premise. They are never going to get approved for illegal adoption. Time to kidnap a quint. Something has to be done. So local regional furniture magnet, Nathan, Arizona, played wonderfully by Trey Wilson. 37 years old in this movie? Yeah, and you're right, Griff. He does. With the body of a 58 year old.

He gives off older. I cannot deny this. I was shocked to learn you're right with the body of a 58 year old he gives off older I cannot deny this I was shocked to learn that he died at the age of 40 I know he technically or not right this second like hemorrhage Yeah, it does feel like he was the youngest person ever to die of old age He has had quintuplets. Well, you know how I feel about him. I'm glad he's dead Not as great you went back to that one. I was gonna set you up, and then I was like, maybe that's too mean. You did it anyway. I did it for you, David.

Thank you. So they kind of have the about as altruistic of baby kidnapping ideas, I guess you can have, which is like, well, they got a lot of babies on their hands. They got more than they can handle. I like that part of the rationalization is almost like, that's so many kids we'd maybe be doing them a favor. They're probably stressed out

with how many kids they have to handle. Now you are not actually allowed, Ben's gesturing at me, you're not allowed to have all your multiple birth children in one crib as this movie depicts. Some of the things in this movie are a little outside of reality. Let me ask you a question,

is it cool to put a loaded gun down in the crib? That dude, that is something that I think I don't think I really clocked as heavily as I did on this rewatch where I'm like, He never picks the gun back up! He just leaves it in the crib. I think he uncocks the hammer? But that's about it. Like I kept waiting for the beat of him like, you you know, like, I'm like, he does pick the gun back up, right? And he's like, and one more thing. And I'm like, oh yeah, and he talks to them some more.

Then he leaves the room. Yeah, he leaves his home invaders and kidnappers. Where are the other babies in that scene, by the way? Because it is nighttime. Yeah, they're probably going on some Rugrats style adventure. That must be it. Yeah, that's right. David. It's four babies days out. Yeah, they're probably going on some Rugrats style adventure. That must be it. Yeah, that's right. It's four babies days out.

I can't remember if you said this on mic or off mic, but you were like now anytime you just have one of your twin boys in your arms, you're like, this is so easy. This shit is fucking child's play. I can't believe I ever complained about this with my daughter. 100%. I'm so used to the challenge of two. Having a kid for the first time, to be clear, to be sympathetic to people, listen to my show, having a kid is very hard.

And it's like, you know, I'm not trying to downplay that it's very hard to have a kid. But you're saying the intensity doubled by having two more at the same time. Well, they always say it's like more than doubles, right? Like it's like, yeah, but yes, and so I I think there is this sort of like perverse backwards altruism in the idea of their scheme Which is like interesting that you are able to have these characters be kidnappers and you don't lose sympathy for they're sort of Reacting to the imagined idea of someone like David being like, oh my god I can't believe I have to feed two kids at once. And assuming that means if you took one kid away,

they would thank you. When in reality, of course that's not the case. No. Cut to Griffin and I on top of a ladder looking in a window in David's apartment. As whimsical. I take the left one, you take the right one. He'll thank us both.

As whimsical as the stone is. He's got more than he can handle, Griffin. I mean, I do feel like this is a film when even the first time you're watching it, you kind of know, like, no babies are gonna die and everything's gonna be okay. The tone of the film just sort of suggests, like, there will be no sort of horrifying sort of,

you know, content in this. And I feel like the thing the film identifies that makes it so powerful is the beating heart at the center of it, and what is actually the real source of narrative tension in this. And I feel like the thing the film identifies that makes it so powerful and is the beating heart at the center of it, what is actually the real source of narrative tension in this film, more so than the demon on the motorcycle, right? Or the idea of law enforcement catching up with them, the two breakout hooligans who are trying to rope him back

into crime is that they get this kid, they immediately form such a genuine emotional connection to him. Not just the idea of finally we're parents, but they really immediately connect with, oh my God, I'm looking in the eyes of this creature and I'm feeling love, right? And then we got a family here. They are hearing on the news, not just like, I'm angry that someone stole my kid, give back but like the actual kind of bereft kind of not bereft the the grieving the public grieving of these parents where you see on both Ed and HI like fuck we've done something wrong right that the level of love we immediately feel for this baby

Makes us understand the amount of pain that we're putting these two parents through and how is this solvable? Because if we give this kid up we're gonna be missing him for the rest of our lives and yet that is the exact thing We've done to these two other people still they had four more So pretty quickly I mean the line you referenced a while back, John, where Holly, you know, Ed just starts sobbing the second she's holding the baby. I think that's so brilliant because you're like both like, yes, she's somewhat cracked. Like, you know, like these people are crazy enough to be kidnapping a baby and like the intensity, like her emotions are so in turmoil.

Yeah. And then you're also like, but she's right. Like all babies are beautiful and she loves this baby. It's fully sincere. It's what it feels like when you have a baby. Like this thing that you felt a little bit ambivalent about maybe or you're looking forward to or you're reasonably scared about to what the change is going to be and then you see it and you're like,

I love it so much. Who cries better in movies than Holly Hunter? Oh, totally. Good question. I mean, this is the same year as broadcast news, right? Crying duo. It is, what is crazy? When she takes the, unplugs the phone, just sits there and cries?

They start filming broadcast news before this has come out. Am I correct? We did that episode so many years ago. I don't remember. I mean, obviously. That is the case. They're obviously both Fox films. Right, and they're similar timeline. Broadcast News was supposed to be Deborah Winger.

She gets pregnant, Raising Arizona style, anti-Raising Arizona style. Anti-Raising Arizona. And they need a last minute sub-in, and I think Fox was like, the woman in this fucking Coen Brothers movie is unbelievable, take a look at her. Right. And we talked about in that episode that the, I'm forgetting her name, The woman in this fucking Coen Brothers movie is unbelievable. Take a look at her.

And we talked about in that episode that the, I'm forgetting her name, but the real news producer who James L. Brooks worked with to help develop the character said, I'll admit to you something really embarrassing. Sometimes I just break down crying. And he wrote that into the script. Yeah. So building that into broadcast news so much is like pure serendipitous magic that like he had landed on that. That's another one of our marital movies that we could just put on like, like everybody. And I could easily go down that road, but look at David.

Yeah. Right. I don't know. You already did a whole episode on that. He's about to start crying. Molly Hunter. Yeah. Maybe I need to just schedule a 10 AM cry or whatever it is she does in a broadcast. This podcast is too long! Ha ha ha! Pretty quickly, highest former cellmates, Gale and Evil

Snutes. So Gale is, of course, John Goodmanman and Evil is the great William Forsythe. Did he ever do another Coen's William Forsythe? No, he was left behind. He was left off the train. Cause it's like, he's so great in this movie and I remember watching for him all the time. Yeah.

In the 90s, William Forsythe is one of those guys who starts, he's just in like eight movies a year, right? Like in like little roles and like straight to video movies and shit. Like he has a long busy career, but mostly doing like fun junk. But you're right, because he's standing next to John Goodman, who the Coens both immediately lock in on,

are like, this is the love of our life. Right. We have uncovered a natural element that we will use to power up the rest of our careers. I would say one of the great Introductions to a character is how you meet these two Yeah, well you have the first amazing you're saying in the open Oh, I guess you kind of see them in place I do think the introduction to basically every character in this movie is as good as your you know what I mean?

Like they're so good at delivering like a visual concept of a character to you, where you're like, I think I get it. And also, I will say, your interest is so many characters in that prologue, like M. M. Walsh and all the people in the prison cell. You're talking about their true entrance. Who never repeat again, if you're seeing this movie in 87, or these unknown actors, you have no reason to believe that those guys are going to come back. You might say their birth, because they are,

this is a birth scene when they crawl out of that hole. Yeah, out of the shit. Yeah, like they're being born out of a hole, crying, screaming and crying. Covered in poop. And Avel has to be, he's a breech birth, he has to be pulled out by his ankle. It might have been a little bit too like out of reality,

but I would have loved if he pulled the map out and started trying to figure out which way to Albuquerque. Yeah, I didn't even think about that connection. I'm so obsessed with the birth canal metaphor that I didn't even think about is like, what's up, Doc? Which way to Albuquerque, another one of the funniest things ever. That every time it's map out of hole, which way to Albuquerque,

he's always trying to get to Albuquerque for no apparent reason. It's just kind of like nearby big city, I guess, that's far enough away. He had a meth empire that he had to us. He was trying to break bad. You know, when she's like, you bust out of jail and he's like, we felt the institution

no longer had anything to offer us. I think it's so funny. They're very, like, they're interesting characters in this movie in a way in that they don't really matter to the plot that extremely. I guess they sort of just represent Hai's recidivism, right, like his high opportunity for- They're like the equivalent of his frat brothers

who are like, don't you wanna crack open a six pack? Right. It's like, right, she just got with this guy, now they're trying to be responsible, right? And the guys from the past are returning to be silly. Also both hyperverbal in the same, I mean, I guess all the characters are, but. Yeah.

I think there was somewhere that I read that they had this idea that these characters read a lot of magazines. That's good. That they picked up a lot of... Right, they'd been in prison. Yeah. a lot of magazines. That's good. That they picked up a lot of... Right, like they've been in prison. Yeah. Yeah.

Just like, yeah. Like the whole like, this is our family unit. Sure. There's some like magazine-y catchphrases of the day that we're coming through there. I think they're like, they're finding something interesting in the tension between the sort of like yokelism that is the primary language with which these types of people are expressed in movies, usually as like inessential punchline characters, right? And also the grand tradition of this like incredible mastery of language, Southern literary

sort of giants, right? Like the most profoundly emotional, thoughtful sort of inner life work and being like, why are these two things so apart when we're saying they're both from the same region? And we're compartmentalizing them in our culture. But I think the magazine thing is a really good take. Like people end up in prison,

what are they gonna fucking do? Lose their mind, get ripped and read. Yeah, absolutely so. I haven't thought about these two guys that is escaping me. No, it's right. So like, right, they're the trashy, like, why don't we go knock over some 7-Elevens again? And then you have Sam McMurray and Frances McDormand just as sort of repellent in a way as the like bougie, like, oh no, have babies,

like enter the middle class, like be like us. Swinger couple. Make racist jokes. Yeah. With, excuse me, Polish people are not a race. They are a nationality, I guess. My race. Sam McMurray bringing a lot of, talking about cartoons, a physical goofy energy.

Sam McMurray is the best. Rolls. We cannot ever, right? Like, I mean, like he's the greatest. Did he ever do another Coens? He did Adam's family values. Yeah. So Sonnenfeld worked with him again.

Yeah. I don't think that he did. I was looking that up. Yeah, he never did. He... Obviously a huge TV guy, like did a zillion TV things. But he's lots of of movies Neil's dad on Freaks Geeks. He's so fucking good. Oh god. I forgot about that arc. Um, I Don't know if he's talked about this publicly or other people have talked about this

Publicly. Yes, but he was part of the cast of the Tracy Ullman show. Yes for like 60 Most of those main cast members got thrown into to do voices on The Simpsons, and he didn't get a family member. And he has a couple guest appearances in the first season, but I think it has always kind of rankled him that he was like an inch away from The Simpsons. He was left behind by both the Coens and The Simpsons. Yeah.

That's rough. Yeah. That is interesting. Because that cast otherwise has Kavner it has Castle Inetta Azaria they find from the outside because the original guy they hired was an asshole. Who's the original guy? I always forget your mark Mary mark Marin talks about him He was a stand-up comedian who then primarily became a voice actor But was so bitter about it and he was like on GI Joe and a lot of big children shows

And he was originally burns G.I. Joe and a lot of big children's shows. And he was originally Burns, Moe, like all of those. I guess some of the characters end up being Shears, some of them end up being Azaria. But Azaria talks about this when they hired him, it was in a recasting. And he went, what was the other guy doing wrong? And they said, you know what, his performance is actually great. He was just such an asshole that we couldn't imagine continuing to work with him. And as there is like, that's the greatest fucking lesson show business I ever learned. I thought it was because the other guy couldn't do an Indian accent. That was also the big part of it.

I can I just say something that I discovered though? What's that? Well, so I was thinking about this dude. Uh, what's his name? Sam Mcmurray. Yeah. Sam Mcmurray. Like, so they're the, like cage is Woody Woodpecker.

Yeah. Uh, and a little bit Wile E. Coyote. Obviously set in the American Southwest, so it's got Roadrunner vibes. Right. Nathan Arizona is Yosemite Sam. Yosemite Sam. This guy feels like Goofy to me. Carter Burwell did the score for a Goofy movie. Wow.

That is interesting. That score is so fucking good. It's another score that you can like- Do you know this score? Yeah. I only know it because I was listening to Carter Burwell- Yeah. ... joints-

On Spotify. Yeah, and all of a sudden it popped up. I'm like, wow. It is also a score where- Suddenly, like, your phone was a little goofy. Got a little goofy. You look- It is a score where if you played it for someone without telling them what movie it was, they would never guess it was a goofy movie. If you extract that score from the movie it what movie it was they would never guess it was a goofy movie if you extract

That score from the movie. I wrote this score. It sounds like just a fucking Classic Carter Burwell score. I have a great super yaki shirt that is music by Carter Burwell His opening credit in the goofy movie font, which is just so funny to see you know what else is a goofy movie Raising Arizona there you go Bringing it back around. On to the second half of Act One. I like that so much of their justification and why they so desperately want to have a child.

I'm gonna fucking paraphrase this and misquote it, but the notion that like we were so happy in love that once we landed on the idea of having a child, depriving them even one potential day of the joy we were experiencing felt cruel, right? That there was a sense of like, they have found such comfort in each other that they created a world that they felt like we need to bring someone else into this, which then hurts them so much when they can't.

Yeah. Yeah. But it's coming from like a true place of like, we want to create a zone of love that can extend. It's beautiful and it's human and it's not arch and it's not mannered and it's not stylized. Yeah. So what happens in the movie?

They kidnap. They have the baby. Nathan Jr. Yeah. They kidnap and then the... The cellmates show up and they're hanging out. The jailbirds Nathan Jr. Yeah, and then... The kidnap and then the... The cellmates show up and they're hanging out. The jailbirds show up. Yeah. I love, something stuck in my mind forever,

John Goodman using the hand soap in the bathroom as sort of like pomade to fix his hair. No, that's pomade. Really? Yeah. It's just so white and foamy that I always think Oh, it's disgusting. he's putting hand soap in there as well It is also public pomade just gnarly and no fucking gas stations

It's the third it's the third most famous Men's hair pomade in the Coen Brothers universe with Aberdan after Dapper Dan and FOP. Yeah. Yeah, I want fuck god damn it That I met the guy who designed the cans for Fop and dapper Dan and indeed all of those products Wow I profiled him for the New York Times magazine not for that reason. Yeah, his name is Ted Hay and on Cocktail bulletin boards in the early 2000s. He was known as dr. Cocktail and His hobby was he's a he's a production designer for films, but his hobby was going into, was recreating pre-prohibition cocktails, ideally with pre-prohibition liquor

that he would source by going into the attics of old liquor stores in Chicago and finding stuff that was 100 years old. Cool. That fucking rules. H-A-I-G-H. We've been close friends to... nearing a decade now.

I dare say. I cannot believe I've never thought to ask you, were you on high-end cocktail message boards in the early 2000s? I was not. Then how did you know this? Because I befriended and was briefly the literary agent to Dale DeGroff, who was the bartender, the famous bartender at the Rainbow Room. Yep.

Who really... I'm going to do a picture of him quick from any magazine he's probably ever been featured in. David has perfectly affected the pose of a man shaking a drink. Shaking a drink. Anyway, Dale deGroff was part of the big cocktail renaissance of the early 2000s. The craft cocktails. Yeah. And then, in fact, his book that I represented, The Craft of the big cocktail renaissance of the early 2000s. The craft cocktails. Yeah, and then, and in fact his book that I represented,

The Craft of the Cocktail, still in print. Well, look at that. Still available in hardcover. No paperback? Well, probably there's a paperback out there. I'll search. But he put me on to Ted Hay and David Wondrich, another big cocktail historian.

David Wondrich has some awesome books about the history of cocktails. Yeah, David Wondrich is a cool dude. And he's a former punk rocker. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, shit. Big time punk rocker. So cool.

But Imbibe and Punch are two of his books that are excellent, highly recommend. I don't know that Ted ever did a book, but you can read my profile of him in the New York Times Magazine. I don't think I saw a fancy cocktail chat hitting the Raising Arizona episode. They don't really have a lot.

I just had to talk about how excited I was when I learned that he designed the FOP and Dapper Dan cans. I don't know what FOP, god damn it. Speaking of doctors, Dr. Spock, we got to talk about it. That's so funny that that's the instruction manual. Yeah, that is a good joke. My parents had that book. That book brings me back. Yeah, you know

Our our baby exactly our own personal baby years art Is that still a tome and like our has a lot of this stuff been completely discredited? No, I wouldn't say that's true. It's more just just outmoded Yeah, a lot of his stuff is still he's not a bad. He's not bad Like dr. Spock is good like his his ideas are largely good. He was we just wanted people to live long and prosper You know he was politically he was on the left and he was on the right side of things and stuff you know I'm sorry was he on the left or the right side of things I? Have me up there. I know you're trying to get your point out um, but I can say about dr. Spock is I'm glad he's dead

Look I have three points of personal connection I That I need 1998 so he saw Raising Arizona. I wonder if he thought it was funny I like to have his book and I hope he was like I hope he got a big fat check out of it Yeah, that's a very very funny running gag I don't think anyone involved with this movie got a big fat check, just to be clear. I think the checks were fairly priceless. What if Benjamin Spock, Dr. Benjamin Spock? Six million dollar budget, five to Ben Spock.

Yeah, what if it was that? All right, so I have three points of personal connection that I must raise before the podcast ends. And the podcast must end. Two hours from now. This episode, not the whole thing. One, regarding Dr dr. Spock my wife was a whole human being in her own right. Mm-hmm Her aunt was his assistant for years Wow, and it is understood within the family that she was also his mistress Sorry spot. I'm dropping some bombs Who knows this could be the Fletcher family mythology, but yeah and Winter was her name. Anne Winter.

Yeah. Another piece of personal connection. Yeah. I met Carter Burwell at the TED conference. That's all. Starstruck. Did he yodel at you? No, he was a very sweet down-to-earth dude. Actually came to, David Reese and I years ago worked on a thing for HBO that never went

and he came to the edit to look at it. He is able to, obviously this score is not an example of this, but I think in some of his work, he's able to tap into a feeling, a musical feeling that feels like it is touching such an intense darkness that I always wonder like is he one of these guys who is just like, oh. And he seems very chill and light.

He does, but he's like. You know what he seemed like to me? What? What? A little goofy. It's a little goofy. Sorry, sorry David, I had to. But you know what I'm saying, I'm like, I could listen to some of his scores and be like,

is this man the Edgar Allan Poe of film composers? Oh, because he's so dark and he was in love with his 14 year old cousin? Well, I would not. I also don't get the Edgar Allan Poe thing. I think he is able to convey a darkness in music that I cannot think of another composer who is able to hit that consistently where I'm like, is this a man who is spending all of his time wallowing in the deepest thoughts imaginable?

And he does not seem to be that way. Not in the very brief time that I'm at. The third point of personal connection, and I will not tell the story till we are ready to end. Okay. Not, I, not just because I want to keep moving. Pin that. Was that I auditioned for Burn After Reading. Oh, interesting. For what role?

I'll tell you later. Pin. Okay. So, what else happens in the movie? Lack of conventional jokes, but Forsythe and Goodman showing up does have more of a kind of classic comedy vibe. Yes. Them having to cover for their lives. Silly conflict here. But Forsythe and Goodman showing up does have more of a kind of classic comedy vibe of them having to cover for their lives. Silly conflict here.

It's a welcome home sign for a baby, which is funny. Right. So they have to explain the baby was visiting the grandparents, even though both the grandparents are dead and they're in different locations. But it's also the conflict of High being tempted back to criminal life. This is where he has the nightmare about Leonard Smalls, where we're sort of, I feel, really introducing this concept of like, High is sort of connected to, you know, he has the sight in a strange sort of a way. In a way the movie doesn't have to

think about very hard. Well, here's the thing that Coen's have said in interviews. That the way they conceived of Leonard Smalls was not what is the ultimate villain that could exist in this universe? But what is the ultimate villain that would exist in? HIs imagination yes, if he had to fear someone coming and retrieving the baby What is the worst thing he would think of? Right, and it is almost a cartoon version of an evil biker and it comes to him in his sleep Yeah, and he looks like a monster.

He looks like one of those Looney Tunes monsters. He does. Yeah. There's a quote I want to read from him, from Tex. Randall Tex Cobb. Yes. He was on David Letterman, 1987. Must have been for the promote the release of this movie, perhaps.

I don't know. And Letterman says, how does your current job compare to your old job? And he said, in the last job I had, if you didn't do it just exactly right, you got hit in the mouth. In this kind of job, the worst thing that can happen, I mean, if everything in the whole world goes wrong, take two. Nice. It's really good.

That's really something to think about. It's really funny. I think he is magnificent. In the movie, he's so perfect, it's crazy. His voice and manner. His little squinty face. The squinty face, the high-pitched voice. The stained teeth.

The stained teeth. But it's like, you know, it is absurd that this monster has his voice like this. Like, it's totally like Looney Tunes gag. That nose that has been so mashed into his face, that his breathing is wrong. Yes. The fact that his name is Leonard Smalls.

His nose is somehow too dimensional. Looney to his friends, but he doesn't have any friends. But he doesn't have any friends, right? No. He wears the shit out of a grenade. Although it's ultimately he's onto it. Until the grenade wears the shit out of him. That's true. He's got the's undoing. Until the grenade wears the shit out of him.

That's true. He's got the little booties. What else? I like that, you know, that... Well, he was trafficked as a child. Mama Didn't Love Me is the tattoo, right? Yeah. He's got the sort of different sized guns.

Yeah. Which I think is very cool. But that's what's smart about... And he's got weird fur on his boots. What's smart about the character is that the movie says like this is the end result of A child being taken out of its nature, right? Right? like in a very silly heightened way and You know the connection between the woody woodpecker tattoos. Mm-hmm to jump ahead in the final confrontation

It's it's like a it's like a fighting Darth Vader in the tree moment. And empires. You know, Yoda's in shit. We're not so different. Talking about Yoda's in shit here. Yeah, Yoda's in shit. We're not so different, you and I. It's like, so he peels back, or you know, they're in this big, very brutal fight.

And Nicolas Cage peels back a layer of fur-covered leather, fur-covered leather or whatever, sees he's got the Woody Woodpecker. And that connection has always, and I think to the movie's credit, remained a little bit ambiguous. Like, it's not a very on-the-nose indication of sameness. Yeah. It's like it invites you to wonder how they're the same, how they're linked, what it is.

Now, it is Woody Woodpecker, but to be clear, that is an off-brand appropriation of Woody Woodpecker for a muffler company from the 60s called Thresh Muffler. It's kind of the equivalent of Calvin pissing on shit. Exactly. Yeah. And it was a staple of like muscle car iconography in the 60s and 70s. Which then often became like biker gang iconography. And unfortunately, Woody Woodpecker, not that particular design, but in general, in prison as a tattoo is a white supremacist.

Oh, boy. Because this guy's got their paws on Woody. Yeah. Is Woody Woodpecker funny? It's a really good question. Because I never loved him. I definitely know who he is and I know the noise he makes. I don't ever remember.

So lodged in my brain, Woody Woodpecker would make the run on afternoon cartoons on WLVI Channel 56 in Boston. And I saw a lot of it, but I never remember ha ha ha ha ha haing at it. I remember having a distinct sort of fondness for, oh a Woody's coming on, right? Different. I'm watching these hours long animation blocks and I'd be excited to see like, oh it's a Chilly Willy, you know? Like Woody was not one I was dreading when a Woody Woodpecker

cartoon came up with no rotation and yet I watch the Looney Tunes today, I laugh, I chuckle, I guffaw. I cannot imagine Woody Woodpecker doing anything that would make me he's an imitation I mean, yes purposeful and considered imitation and even if he was any Mel Blanc Or blank. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. He's like now and I'm glad of it John. Wait a second Everyone's getting bodied here all these 20th century icons Just acknowledging that we all are mortal. We don't live forever and I'm glad. Do you think that people are dead rather than being stuck on this mortal coil long past

their duty? Do you think Mel Blanc had to die so that Mel B from the Spice Girls could emerge? Yeah, there could only be one. I forgot they're both Highlanders. Yeah, good point. Woody Woodpecker also ran an imitation. Yes. Sorry, sorry, the estate of Walter Lansing. If Yoda told you to go into a cave of evil, would you do it?

Yeah, I'd do anything Yoda told me to do. Because that might be when I'm peacing out. I guess he doesn't have the X-wing out yet. Yeah. Now, X-Files texts Cobbs in one of those. Here's the difference. I would... My brain, no workie as the millennials say.

You've been sick for 17 years it seems like. You've had the endless cold. When I watch Empire Strikes Back, my thought is always, I don't know if I leave Dagobah. Right, actually kind of, sort of a chill vibe here. I think Yoda's kind of got it figured out, and I know it looks like I got to go save my friends. And part of me is just sort of like, I don't know if anything you can do at this point.

Yoda makes a good point. Well, look, I know that we like talking about Yoda's and shit. Yeah, we do. We should not because poor David. Sure. I like talking about Yoda. You kidding me? You want to throw the rest of this movie away and just talk about Yoda's and shit?

No, no, no. Come on. Sure. What's up with Yoda? I'll tell you something about Yoda. He died pretty suddenly in Return of the Jedi, right, David? Yeah, that was the point I made. You're taking my point. Yeah, but that was before we were on Mike. Oh, you want me to make it?

Yeah, I want to see him on Mike. He's old the entire fucking saga. Why is he choosing that moment to tap out? And then like in Jedi, Luke's like, hey, Yoda, what's up? It's been like a year max since I last saw you're just like truly Seconds from death. He's just like Luke. I'm walking in that bed and let me tell you I ain't getting out of it Okay. Yeah, oh, I have a bunch of questions for he's like, yeah I think Leia is your sister or something check in with the Obi-Wan goes I am out of he's got a Marion Couture

Dark Knight rises death like it is actually hysterical that in Jedi Yoda can't even give Luke a lot of the exposition And fucking ghost obi-wan then sits on a log is like fyi. Yes. We knew Vader was your dad Yes, ladies don't it didn't cover any of this Are you fucking kidding me the guy couldn't have held on for ten more minutes and Luke's like why didn't you tell me about the? Vader thing he's like look from a certain point of view and Luke's like just say George hadn't figured it out He's like, look, from a certain point of view, and Luke's like, just say George hadn't figured it out. Come on, just admit it.

Even though I was... And it's just like, I can't believe I'm even in this one. I died two movies ago. Even though I was only 12 years old, maybe when that movie came out, and I and I think John Wolfe convinced our teachers to let the whole class skip school. Oh, let's like go see it.

To go see it as a field trip. Brooks Ames was not allowed to come with us. Because his parents said no. teachers to let the whole class skip school. Oh, that's like, wow. Go see it as a field trip. Right. Brooks Ames was not allowed to come with us. Like his parents. Because his parents said no. Worse if. Even though I was young, in that moment when Yoda died, I thought to myself two things.

One, that's how it is when a person gets old. If you're caretaking for an elder parent, they'll take a sudden turn for the worse. And the other thing I thought at the time was, I'm glad he's dead. I think the smallest thing is, right, like there is this fear of what feels like this incomprehensible, otherworldly, if not evil, at least scariness, right? Like a man who exists just to be a monster. And yet his motivating force is, I was taken away by my parents And look at me now and I have to stop it from happening

Right, which more than him being able to solve the problem himself I think it kind of scares a giant ed enough combined with seeing the actual sorrow of the Arizona's that the child being missing of like if we love this kid We actually can't do this to him right This is like creating a problem that's gonna hang over him for the rest of his life whether he knows it or not But the fact sorry and then the second part of it is I think seeing the tattoo is less Signaling that they're part of the same white supremacist group and more just like oh right This guy was a person at some point

It's not that we're the same there's emotion right been kind of calcified or like, you know, scarred over with this guy. Yeah. Like it is the raw, it is his raw flesh. The last thing that Hai says to him is sorry. Like Hai has to destroy him because he's a villain, an obstacle. But Hai doesn't feel great about blowing him up. Right. But like every... But there's also ambiguity about what the apology is for. Like it is that.

Sure. But what else is Isari for? And I love this ambiguity. Like I, this is what I was thinking about before with regard to trying to figure out what is the emotional core of the Coens that they're bringing to this. It doesn't matter. Then I studied the literary theory at Yale University, a four-year accredited college in Southern Connecticut.

And the first thing we were taught is the author is dead. Authorial intention does not matter. What is left behind, the text, often reflects things that the author doesn't even think about on a conscious level. So even if they do have an intention and state it, that does not mean that they themselves, if they are alive, they're reliable narrators necessarily about their own work. And sometimes they're not allowed,

they can't speak for their intention because they are dead. And you know what? I'm glad. But that said... 10 how many points? The effort to try to humanize or find an emotional core for what the Coens are going through is I think ultimately a dead end for this reason. And I love the fact that they will put in these things that feel very meaningful and yet they have no precise explanation.

Well, The Hat and Miller's Crossing is probably the ultimate one. We'll talk about it next week. Sure. And we'll get to Serious Man, which embraced the mystery, is them yelling that at the audience, right? At a point in time where I think audiences have finally come to understand how to build a relationship to their movies and not bang their head against a wall. But I also, I think a lot about, I believe it was on an episode of WTF where Pat and

Oswald was on and the two of them were talking about how much they both love the Coen brothers. And Marin says something to the effect of like, you know about like movies and shit, right? Why are the Coen brothers so good? Explain to me why I think about their movies all the time. Honestly, that's why he's a master interviewer. I agree. And Oswald said something that I think about a lot in relation to their work, where I will

probably paraphrase this in a way that is much worse than the way he put it, but something to the effect of the thing about the Coen brothers is they're not interested in giving you answers. They just kind of casually open doors and let you decide whether or not you want to walk through them yourselves, right? And there was that feeling of, I know there is something behind this door, and now the door has been opened, but they're not guiding you through it, and they're not telling you you need to walk through that door.

Exactly. And that feeling of like, I might not have the answers, but I know there is an answer here. Right. And part of the joy is knowing that you're never going to land on definitively But that you can wonder about what's in behind that door forever I mean, you know so much of you know movie quote unquote fandom on the internet these days is breaking it down and figuring it out yep and Getting to a final answer and I've designed movies like puzzles of like we're giving you the clues and if you put them together

Right, you will have yeah every they everything now like mr. Policeman I gave you all the clues. They're not like snowmen's they're not snowmen's And I think you know this movie has less of it than some of their later phone I want to be clear that I thought that was funny. I that was very funny You might have heard on the the audio David laughing uproariously at that joke Unless Ben chose to cut it out for some reason. SICK guy. Weird.

But I think like, you know what, I love the ambiguity, you know, just let it like, did David find it funny or not? It's for you to interpret. It's hard to think of another like broad studio comedy of the 1980s that would allow you to be like, and I don't know if I'll ever have an answer for that and I find that interesting Yeah, no, obviously in a way that doesn't feel like a plot hole, right? It's just fascinating that even in their movie. That's like let's just try to make something that's fun It still starts to like scratch at these corners of mystery. Absolutely. Yeah, okay

So I think we kind of left off discussing somewhat the couple, Glen and Dot, stop by, meet the new baby. I need to award five million comedy points to their son, who just writes the word fart on the inside of their wall. That hits so hard. It is incredible. And then the callback to fart later is equally genius. And I like how they're signaling just like the chaos

of this family and how they're not really disciplining the children at all. They're gently signaling that the family is chaos. Yeah, they're not doing well. The kids are all bandaged and hitting everybody with sticks. But this basically leads to- Like when they cut to that shot and they're just like hitting the fucking car.

The girl's got the eye patch This leads like directly into the the Huggies heist Yes, yes Things are tension is building they stop at a convenience store. I need some Huggies And all the cash you know I'll take these Huggies and And whatever cash you have you and, David, that the Coen brothers are underrated as being some of the best action filmmakers on the planet, because it's not their primary mode.

They don't even do it that way. But this movie, yes, absolutely. Again, I mean, it is hard. I don't really know how they did this camera stuff. I've watched special features where they sort of explain it. And some of its evolution of Raimi cam shit. The way it rides around, yes. It's so cool. But yes, High knocks over a convenience store. He can't explain it. And some of its evolution of Raimi cam shit. The way it robs around.

It's so cool. But yes, Hai knocks over a convenience store. He can't help it. He loves to knock over a convenience store. I think a lot of it's undercranking combined with like incredibly meticulously rehearsed and practiced runs on complicated dolly tracks and rigs and stuff. It was the adolescence of its day. I couldn't think of a better way to put it.

I will never watch that shit. I will never watch it. A billion years. You haven't seen it? No. Oh, you have to see it. Mmm, do I? I definitely don't.

Oh, it's magnificent. I've been too busy rewatching Disney's Bonkers from the beginning, so that's gonna take up the next four months of my life. It is a... Are you not? Are. You. Okay. My... If you're not seeing it because of one of two life. It is a...are you not...are you okay?

If you are not seeing it because of one of two reasons. One that it is emotionally devastating, that's true. And two that the gimmick of shooting each episode as a single one shot is distracting and mannered. I don't believe that. I believe it is well executed, yet I'm just like, I simply don't want to watch that mostly because of point one I would I would say that both of those things are true and yet you forget about them Sure in a way that is astonishing

Both the technique that it was filmed and the fact that it is I mean you feel the emotional gut punch But you are on a journey. It's great just to resolve this question David on a journey. It's great. Just to resolve this question, David, my girlfriend asked me, are there cartoon characters that you grew up having early formative crushes on? And I was like, yeah, I feel like the obvious ones, generationally Spinelli on Recess and whatever.

And I said, what about you? And she went, bonkers. And I went, well, that's very damning for me. It feels like there's a real straight line to you being activated by bonkers as a child and dating me now. That's very damning for me. It feels like there's a real straight line to you being activated by Bunkers as a child and dating me now. That's true. And then I was like, I think we need to watch Bunker

so I can solve this. 61 episodes and four special compilations. I think we're 10 in. I feel profoundly older than you. I don't, this is a generational thing. I don't even know what Bunkers is. Bunkers was like a ripoff Roger Rabbit cartoon that clearly they deny it had been developed as the Roger Rabbit animated series

And then realized we're gonna have some X and Spielberg baked into these contracts and too much approval So it becomes about a different silly cartoon animal who is partners with a gruff fat Real world style policeman. Oh soft cases in Toontown. Oh, all right. Yeah, what what's next in racing Arizona? What else we need to talk about? Huggies heist which is just like a bravura fucking 10 12 minute actions I want to pay off when it gives her he's giving her those directions Yes, while they're having the monologue you have a man for a husband You're not a real man all that convert that subtext about what it means to be grown up And then you realize that

he's giving directions to the huggies. To pick them up just casually while speeding. The dogs are so good. I do not have any children. You gentlemen both do. I do feel like, and tell me if my read on this is wrong, this is sort of metaphorically them being like, you become a parent and then suddenly everything in your life feels like this all the time. Yeah, that makes sense.

The pressure of, fuck, how do we get diapers? Right. Everything is really hard and high intensity. Yeah, yeah. You feel like you're being chased by a pack of dogs all the time. And there's also that big dog and then there's that little dog, which I kind of felt was like a reference to that Looney Tune where the bulldog and the one that jumps on Thomas and hey Rex or whatever, you know, absolutely. Then there's also two stupid dogs, which was kind of a rip off of that bunker

style, which was another 90s. Okay, so we're getting out of this. All right. So what's next? I thought, but here, I just thought John Goodman and William Forsyth were a riff on the big dog and the little dog. No, I agree with you. That's all. Okay, so next is his former boss, the foreman shows up with his broken nose and his neck in a brace,

and he's now threatening, because he's figured out. He's put it together. Yeah, and they want the baby. Right, which Goodman and Forsythe are also putting together. Because they're hearing it. Everyone around them now realizes,

they've done something wrong, and I can benefit from it. You know what's up, Doc? The gig, the gig is up. And no one knows how to get to Albuquerque. No one knows. The place of salvation. Everything's been found out.

Very fun fight between Goodman and Cage in the house. Oh yeah. And just the spinning... And it's three stooges. Camera work. Right, Goodman's such a big beefer and Cage is this weird string bean guy And it's three stooges and work right Goodman such a like a big beaver and like Cage is this weird string bean guy like with just like such unpredictable energy the other thing is that this is starting to

severely strain their relationship Yeah, the guilt of this is which is also parenting like I get what you're saying like right It's about this strain of parenting like and what it does Like, I get what you're saying. Like, right. It's this strain of parenting, like, and what it does to people, like, of course, to a new relationship or whatever. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But also, within this movie, there's the sort of ends justify

the mean situation of this will make us so happy that maybe we have to do something wrong in order to give us the future that we want. Right. And by doing it the wrong way, it it like, eats at their relationship. Yeah. It starts to turn them against each other. Yeah. The guilt, I think, is really kind of getting to them.

Right. And this fear of, are we going to fuck up this kid? Right. Yeah. So they make out with the baby. Yeah, Goodman and Forsythe steal the baby, instantly fall in love. They love him so much. She is very charming.

They become immediate surrogate parents. Yeah. That's when he's got to go buy the Huggies from the old timer. It's kind of a magical baby. How do you put them on? It's like, and he said, well, they have these tapettes and it's fairly explanatory. So that's also the balloon. These balloons blow up into funny shapes.

And then they do the whole like countdown thing and I'll be back in five minutes. Yes. I love that recurring. They go rob the bank. They forget that they've left the baby carrier on top of the car. Huge reaction in the theater when they put that.

That was such a beautiful cinematic hand. Just the very image of the baby huge reaction in the theater when they put that that was such a beautiful cinematic You just the very image of the baby in the seat Yes And there's by making the baby a little precocious the sort of like hiding the face kind of thing Yeah, it does. I think it buffers the actual like discomfort Oh, yeah, you know you're like I I'm I'm accepting that you're using the baby in a manipulative way that are fun movie stakes, while also being like, this baby could fucking baby's day out if it wanted to.

It's never really gonna get hurt. This baby is smarter than anyone in a way. Exactly. And when Goodman and Forsythe realize they left the baby on top of the car, they pop out their birthing screams again. So good. Which is such a, like, I remember, well, I don't remember what I remember,

but it's such a clue to the movie. Like, we were dealing with very primal emotions here. Yes. Like, these are primal screams that these guys are embodying. And Edwina is sobbing in the car while, you know, HI has just kind of gone numb as they're trying to chase after both the baby and the

Jellyard buddies. The same time Smalls appears, presents himself to, you know, Arizona, who is basically like not interested and he's like, fine, I'll just do it anyway. I'll just steal the baby. And I guess sell the baby. I guess that's his plan. Like just not even claiming the reward. Well, he's saying I'll do it. I'll do it for what? What was the reward? $20,000. Yeah.

Yeah. But he demands 50,000. It's 25,000 and he demands more because that's what the market will bear because he knows because he was trafficked as a child or whatever. And I guess he's got the receipts. But you also get to the, what is kind of the line of the movie for me Which is if I'm as bad as you what good are we to each other? Right, right, right. It's really we'll Cohen brothers logic to to weigh down on her that she feels like they're both activating something bad in each other that has led to this whole situation and Disregard our love

Clearly this doesn't work Yeah, yeah, yeah Okay, then there's a fight and then there's the end. Yeah, I mean, well, there's the the die pack exploding. Another primal scream. Yes. They do this sort of armed robbery with the baby. Yes. Yes. I mean, there's so much fun shit and it's also energizing and wonderful. But again, to me, it's the last 15 minutes that make the movie make sense. Because you're watching this movie kind of being like, how

can this end appropriately? Which I love a movie that's that lays out a deck of cards where you're like like there is no way for you to get out of this Okay, right, right because like you're like you're you're like, yes, possibly they're just gonna give the baby back but isn't that just kind of like Does doesn't that feel a little cheap or a little like a bit of a bummer or whatever? Right, you know like okay. Can we give the baby back? Yeah, no worries just to be clear Well, then what was the whole movie the double layer of I don't know how the characters are going to untangle this situation

And I don't know how the filmmakers are gonna let that untangling feel like a satisfying conclusion to whatever I've been watching I mean one one thing that looney tunes cartoons could do or they were they were never tasked With sticking the landing to a two hour long feature film. They don't have to resolve any sense of an emotional narrative. Yeah, you just fall, like the coyote falls off the cliff for the third time. Yeah, and the bugs bunny looks at the camera and says, fuck that guy, right? That's the famous closing catchphrase of Looney Tunes, right? Fuck that guy, right? Badoob badoob badoob badoob, fuck that guy.

The maturity, like, defeating Leonard for high. Speaking about difficulty of sticking the landing to a three hour long feature. As a BMO Eclipse Visa Infinite cardholder, you don't just earn points. You earn five just earn points. Ahem. You earn five times the points. On the must-haves, like groceries and gas, and little extras like takeout and rideshare. So you build your points faster. And then you can redeem your points on things like travel and more.

And we could all use a vacation. Apply now and get up to 60,000 points. So many points. For more info, visit bmo.com slash eclipse. Visit us today. Terms and conditions apply. It's hard to bring it home. It is.

Yeah. Feels like some sort of like, siege perilous that high passes through successfully. Yeah. And in the sort of magic realism, magical thinking of this movie, because obviously what happens, just to very quickly summarize,

is they return the baby. Uh, Nathan Arizona is like, it's all good. I understand that you did this out of love, even though you're stupid. Yeah. And then High says that he had a dream of first of... Well, Nathan Arizona sees that they still have love, even though they have given up on their own love. You guys shouldn't give up on each other either, right?

And High dreams first of just watching Nathan Jr.'s life, you know, from afar, right? But then also dreams of being greeted by his own grandchildren in a sequence that makes me... Walter comes out of my eyes when I'm like, what is this feeling? And Arizona has also said to them, like, he plays this so fucking well in the arcs of it, of him being like, who are you? We brought the baby back, don't ask questions. Can we say goodbye? He from behind, he's not only looking at their faces,

sees the emotion in their body language, their relationship to each other, where he's like, you're the ones who took him. And he's not even angry, even though they had framed it as we saved the baby from Smalls originally Right where he's just like something profound emotional has happened here And I'm just grateful that you came around to doing the right thing And then he is so quickly kind of bereft at the idea that they're about to torpedo the relationship Right where he's like whatever's happened here is a sign of something honest

Yeah, and they're sort of like her infertility has driven us crazy. We don't understand how we have a future for this relationship. One of the things about this movie, that a lot of stylized, mannered movies by different directors that came afterward, that were primarily preoccupied with men's ambiguity about growing up, this movie is really about a woman genuinely wanting to be a mother. Yeah. In a very sincere way.

And it's a stark difference from some of the meta sort of crime-y, like, wackadoo movies that would come out in the 90s in its wake, to a degree. But Nathan says to them, like, you gotta just keep trying, which is what my wife and I did. Despite this character, this actor only being 37 years old,

he reads like a fucking 70-year-old man, right? And so him saying like, we kept trying and you hope that medical science catches up to you and it caught up to us with a vengeance, which gives HI the ability to dream of like, one way or another, we're gonna have a family. There is a way to make this happen. You know? Yeah.

And I do feel like the magical thinking of this movie is like something has happened in defeating Leonard and saving this baby and making it like... Maybe things can be different for them. We don't know how. It's like vanquishing the dragon and returning back to your village. Yeah.

It's really funny that Gail and Evel returned to prison through the hole that they dug out. So cute. They gotta go back to their home. That's in his mind, but I believe that it happened. For sure. Same. They weren't ready to be born. Glenn gets arrested for being an asshole to Polish people.

An excellent bit of comeuppance for him. Sergeant Kowalski. Yes, Sergeant Kowalski. And I just, I like this idea gets at that, like, in some way, this experience that could not be literally processed by a baby will have some lasting effect on Nathan Jr. that sets him apart from his brothers and sisters. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, and... I think it's a valuable lesson for the baby, and I wasn't a parent when I saw it. I've seen it many times since being a parent, and I realized, oh, that is why... we drove around with our kids on top of the car so many times, because we wanted to give them that experience. And they don't remember it, but I think they benefit from it.

Absolutely. Such a good parent. Thank you. And the final line of... David, you too, by the way. Yeah. The picturing... Let that horse in here. Being old, having the grandchildren, Thanksgiving table.

It feels like home, if not Arizona, someplace far away, right, where children and parents are loved or whatever and everything is warm. I don't know. Maybe Utah. It's just such a good final joke. Absolutely. I mean, how do you not walk out of the movie just walking? On air. Yes. I did. Like basically 90 minutes soaking wet.

You did. I walked out on air and I was completely as a creative, I mean I think I was turning 16 that year. But I mean it's like I don't think, I've ever stopped thinking about that movie since I saw it. And it was incredible. You are such a dear friend of the show. And we often go like, fuck, we should ask Hodgman.

It's been a little too long, right? About once a year, it's been a little too long, right? That's nice. About once a year, it's like, what's up with Hodgy? But there are things like Dune, where like the second Lynch 1 March Madness, we were like, well that, it's a no-brainer, it's a non-question, you're the first person I ask, right? There are things like Evil Dead 2 where we're struggling to find someone, we were like, wait a second, Hodgman.

And you were like, absolutely. I don't know why that was a struggle, but okay. But there's also, also there been things like a Master builder which many people say is one of our best episodes that was like we cannot imagine Anyone who would want to come on as ours are as our raising that that is one of the greats We went we went weird hard and that always did not care about any any there are no rules Thread that's like, you know Show up and we trust that with you in the room We will figure out how to make this an episode that people will want to listen to without

Sorry, I let you down this time Our friends from the flop house. Yeah, so Wellington in particular And McCoy Elliot Kaelin co-host of iPod EOS with John Hodgman go on they had been trying to do some sort of New York movie podcaster and such meetup Which we've done in past years and kind of fallen away by a Commonwealth Pandemic students bar on 12th Street and 5th Avenue new wife, but the the new bar with his wife What am I saying? Not new wife with our old one long-standing wife? But the we hate movies guys

What are we doing here what I know we've been solve the Raising Arizona scheduling problem even though this is such a big movie where we're like it's weird no one's asking for this one. Sure. And yet it's such a big film that it feels like we can't just wantonly throw someone on it without it being worthy you know. Yeah. And you're at the bar and you're heading out and I was like by the way, we have to get you on we haven't done since Doon Cohen's and you go like I mean Raising, Arizona and I was like, yeah great. I text David. I'm like we've solved it raising, Arizona, right? Yeah, and then I tell you like scheduling this and that we figure out the puzzle you get back you land here Here we are you send a long text and you're like gentlemen. I just want you to know I'm not trying to throw around my weight. I don't want to be greedy

I think of myself as a utility player in the the the tapestry of your show I just figured people would be clamoring for all the Cohen movies and that two or three of your regs Were probably going for raising Arizona. I just such a gentleman's move that even after we said yes please, you went, I don't want to take it away from someone else, know that I would gladly go on any episode, whichever one you're having the hardest time booking. And I said, you are lucky that this is the one we are having the hardest time booking and also that is one that you clearly have such a formative relationship. I guess it was meant to be.

We just we love you. We thank you. When I say something, I love you all. Always been of such great value to us as a friend. Thank you very much. As a person and friend of the show. I'm very glad you're all alive. The ultimate compliment. Thanks, thanks John.

Decade of dreams. I hope it stays that way for a while. Look, this film came out in February of 1987, but we're not doing that weekend. And let me tell you why. I'm sorry, March, uh, oh, no, that... Well, I think it opened small and then opened wide. Yeah, it opened on one theater at March 13, 1987.

We're not doing that weekend because that is the weekend of Evil Dead 2, an episode that John literally was on. Wow. Oh, wow. So I'm going to do it wide. That was a big year for Hodgman. It's big, wide weekend. And we're into adding hundreds of theaters. Okay, April 10th, 1987 and see about these two movies being in theaters at the same time Yeah, yeah, where it was definitely April when I saw it. I did not see it in March. It hits two million No, the film ultimately ends up grossing

22 million dollars, which is a lot of money. Yeah, and according to numbers 767 whole dollars internationally my guess is they just don't is a lot of money. And according to the numbers, 767 whole dollars internationally. My guess is they just don't have a lot of data. But number one at the box office, it's number seven. So number one at the box office, Griffin, is a... April 87. A comedy, sort of a youthful comedy, I guess. But it's not a teen comedy. Well, that's why I'm struggling to call this a teen. It's this actor who's kind of transitioning

from teen to youngish, you know, adulty guy. Is it a shrapacker? Is it a Hughes person? No. No. Who's the other one in that era who made, you know, who's like a star? Who made young star, yeah. Yeah.

If not Cruz. No, no, no, comedy. Yeah, comedy. If not an outsider's boy. I'm trying to think of who's the other one who's making the transition in the 80s. He's mostly comedy, but he's trying to broaden? This is a comedy. This movie is a comedy.

This movie is a comedy. He became a gigantic star, gigantic, gigantic star, two years ago with a huge hit movie. He's a big TV star. In 85, you're saying. Oh, this is Michael J. Fox? That's right. But what's the film? Is this Secret of My Success? The Secret of My Success. I've never seen it. Not even by Herbert Ross, of course,

a sort of legendary director, but near the end of his career. It's kind of a largely forgotten movie that you look at, it's box office grosses, and you were just like, man, Michael J. Fox was just... It was a giant hit. ...so beloved at the time that people were Going to see anything he did and I had that night ranger song Sister Christian no the secret of my success

So that's opening to it's new this week 7 million 7.7 million dollars number four at the box office is a sequel comedy sequel. Okay. 1987. Comedy sequel. Comedy sequel. Is it a two? Nope.

Is it a three? Nope. Is it a police academy? It is. Is it a four? That's right. Is it Mission Moscow? Nope.

I always get them wrong. Fuck. Is it Citizens on Patrol? Citizens are on patrol today for the police academy for... I just realized citizens on patrol spells out C-O-P. There you go. Fuck. That is good. There's a lot to unpack in this place.

I haven't seen that film. I've never seen a single police academy. Same. I've seen scenes. Sure. I don't think I've seen a scene. I'd flip through and catch a sequence and tante it. I'm told there's one character who's a little bit of a... has the gift of the gab.

Well, the gift of the gab or the gift of the sound effects? Yes. Pew pew pew! That guy. I'd say that's not gabbing. I'd say that's... Bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop bop b Michael Winslow is still alive, right? Yeah. Good, I'm glad. Thank God. Is he? I am all but certain. And if not, I'm gonna have to come up with different evening plans. He's alive as hell.

Thank you. This guy is so alive. I'm glad. I'm glad of that. Nice, lovely Wikipedia picture, full color, looks great. I pray he hasn't died by the time this episode comes out. Jesus Christ. Okay, number three at the box office is a romantic comedy from a legendary director

with a legendary star, but at this point he's a romantic comedy from a legendary director with a legendary star but at this point he's a fairly new star. Interesting. This is a movie that got very bad reviews but it did okay. Is this one of the Bruce Willis movies? It is a Bruce Willis film. Is this Blind Date? It's Blake Edwards' Blind Date with Bruce Willis and Kim Basinger.

Blake Edwards did the two Bruce movies back to back that were meant to be the moonlighting transition to movie stardom and they both don't work sunset, of course being the other one which is sort of Crime old-timey crime comedy. Yeah, and then blind date which was kind of a hit but was just sort of like I don't know if this guy's these were pre die-hard both of them and then the following year is die-hard and people go holy shit Oh, go holy shit number four at the box office is the re-release of an animated film. I assume from the fine folks at Walt Disney Center.

That's correct. Okay. I put this on for my daughter once and she could not have been less interested in it. Interesting, okay. Sort of confirmed my... Me, what I remember about it, which is a... It was never a movie I liked very much. But I think it passed as fans. Is it a classic, a classic classic seventies. Is it like the aristocats? It is not just

like the aristocats, but he is the aristocats. I would almost say that no movie is more like the aristocats than the aristocats. Yeah. A movie I put on because those Rytherman movies are often interesting. I put it on. It has the shaggy, you know, animation style, but I would admit I too was always like, yeah, never really love Rytherman era is my favorite Disney animation studios era and yet that is the one that I feel like I Never revisit and have no inclination to I remember being at a young age where I had learned I'd started learning about how stories work You know my parents explained to me what morals were

It started learning about how stories work. And my parents explained to me what morals were, especially when you're watching children's entertainment and most movies try to give you a lesson. You've told this story before, but it's a really good story. And my older cousin walked in on me watching the Aristocats and I got to the end and I looked at him and I was like befuddled

and I was like, so what's the moral of this story? And he went, I don't know, everyone wants to be a cat? Nailed it. Which is just the song they're singing at the end. He was like my disaffected older like fucking 20 year old cousins I don't know everybody wants to be a cat. I don't think about anything 101 Dalmatians sword in the stone jungle book. I feel like Robin Hood. Those are the those the ones Number five the box office is giant action hit First in a long running series about crush were the animated characters that Robin Hood Fox

Everyone goes hot you might be surprised to hear that made Marion Fox and Robin Hood was what I cited to my girlfriend Jesus cock those are some hot foxes Is it predator? No, what was it again? Is it action lethal weapon? Yes Richard Donner's Lethal Weapon. You've also got Platoon, still in the top ten. From winning Best Picture the year before. You've got a little film called Raising Arizona. You have Barry Levinson's Tin Men, which is fun.

Amanda Knox's dad's favorite movie. It's a runner on Big Pictures. They're doing their 25 for 25, where he keeps saying, where have you ranked 10 men? And she keeps having to tell her dad. You said Amanda Knox. You meant Amanda Dobbins. Amanda Knox, of course, is the woman who was accused of murdering someone in Italy. In a group text...

I was like, Amanda Knox's dad. I was... Also... It's like I swang in a ball that was all the way over there. So sorry. In a group text containing Sean fantasy We were all joking about the fact that her middle name is Knox and and her son is named Knox for this reason. Yes but You're like a man adopt Knox's dad's favorite movie. I'm sorry, huh?

But also maybe I will have to check the big picture is he keeps going where you gonna rank tin man And she goes nowhere and also it came out in the 80s right Simon is movies since 2000 Where are you gonna rank tin man? Uh, yeah fun movie fun little movie. Yeah Really mixed bag No wonder Charles and I went to see Raising Arizona. I wouldn't have seen any of these movies What's a weapon not so good for you? Never saw it? Okay number nine of the box It's pretty good number nine of the box offices never known Street three dream warriors great movies. Do we both agree the best one? That's a very complicated question, okay, I believe the first is the song from that one was it meow meow meow meow

Great song. Yeah, I think it's the best of the sequels. I think the first one has Kind of crazy magic to it and is actually scary. I enjoy all other Freddy movies, but none of them are scary Yeah, first one is scary. Yeah, like it's really disturbing in the way. He films. The dreams are so cool Yeah, the third one though is the best of the Hey, if these movies take place in the dream world, they should be wild and fantastic But you're right starting to become almost a little more of an action movie Dream Warriors is where it but the second movie is obviously so strange and this time it's real object and three is like yeah Like let's get a fantasy movie. Yeah, like fucking rules. It does so does

Like, let's make a fantasy movie. Yeah, just fucking roll. It does roll. It does roll. That's so much fun. Number 10 is the Hugh Wilson comedy burglar starring Whoopi Goldberg and Bobcat Goldthwait, a film I have never seen. Is this a big weekend for Bobcat?

I know. I was just going to say, two in the top 10. Because he's on patrol and he's burgling. This is kind of Bobcat's peak, right? Or, I mean, like Hot to Trot, I would say, was really the... but that's also Hot to trot is a year later. Yeah, I'm only saying that I love Bobcat Gold. Wait, obviously a wonderful guy Wonderful director. Yeah, you know, but he definitely is a guy where you're like, huh

When he was a movie star things didn't always work out so good for hot to trot or Shakespeare Where he's like you really think a whole movie of this is gonna work and they were just like money I just saw a trailer for hot to try to the Nighthawk. That's what I was on my mind I'm not thinking about all that. I don't know why they were showing that trailer. I should go see how to trap David that's the ten. Yeah, I gave you the ten Pretty pretty good ten. Although John apparently is completely dissatisfied. I bodied the 10. I guess Citizens on Patrol and an Aristocats re-release is not the most thrilling.

Best of times, worst of times. Right. And I've never seen Blank Date. This film obviously was a big hit and well received, but we have, as we discussed, some critics still looking askance at the Coens for being a little slick and a little possibly patronizing, although I don't think they are. Here's my complaint about the Coens. Are they too good at making movies? Well, honestly, that's what a lot of Coen reviews boil down to. It's a little suspicious.

Honestly, even post-success. Yes. Once they're deep in their success, sometimes people are like, can they stop being so impressive? Like I want to actually watch the movie. And I'm like, why don't you just watch the movie? What are they up to making perfect movies? There are some perfectly executed movies, beyond perfectly executed, sort of like mind-bogglingly well-made and acted, that I can't, they're a barren

place where my seed will find a purchase. Because I feel like they don't need a viewer, essentially. Such as? Well, this is my very controversial hot take that I was reserving for off mic later. Okay. But because of my love for you guys in the podcast and many, many people loving these films that I had never seen, I've been watching the later Missions Impossible. And they're absolutely glorious. But I'm, I just, they're just bouncing off my eyeballs.

Because I just feel like there's no need... That sounds like something Ethan Hunt should do. ...for anyone in this. Sounds like a big eyesore. That'd be a good start. Hodgman, can you tell us the burn after reading? Burn after reading and then... To finish your point. Well, I was just going to say, like, all you tell us the burn after reading? Burn after reading and then... Finish your point.

Well, I was just going to say, like, all of the Coen, even though they are virtuosic, and even though they are sometimes very cold, I feel like there's room for me in this movie. I watch all of their movies so much and I find them very comforting, even the ones that are dark or intense. And I do think it's because there is a core humanism to them that I find comforting amidst the chaos I when I my life was kidnapped by television and then by commercials for Apple how rude and all of a sudden I all of my

dumb pretentious dreams of watching movies Suddenly became like I could be in them. And I said when I got representation, they're like, what do you want to do? Like, who do you want to... They were like, you know, you can do anything now. You are in an ad. It's a different era. You're all over America.

But they were like, you know, we can try to make some things happen for you. What are your... And I was like, I'd like to be in Battle Circle Actica. And if I were to make any movie, like to be in Battle Circle Actica. And if I were to make any movie, it would be with the Coen brothers. Anything. I'll do anything.

And I was invited to audition for Burn After Reading. Makes perfect sense. Several roles in that I could see you fitting. There's a very small role at the beginning of the film where I... Jeffrey Dumont as the doctor? No. Interesting. Honestly, I don't know that I've ever seen that movie

because I was sad that I couldn't be in it. Wow. And that's why I was able to be tricked later. Okay. So I auditioned for them. They were like, it was really a big deal. They were sitting right across from me. Wow.

And I was playing some kind of Mormon FBI agent or something at the very beginning of the movie. Interesting. We will revisit soon. And I did not get the role. Sure. I don't know who got the role, because I never saw it.

Wow. I was a little scarred. It hurts too much. And I was telling this story on the set of the Apple ads. After it was clear I was not gonna get the the role, but I was like, I was excited about it and I was telling Justin about it. Long. Yeah, Justin Long. And the guy who I get, Jeff, who operated the boom mic, he was always

getting on me. Jeff. Like, one thing I learned, and this is, you know, this is a big whistling movie, Raising Arizona, I would whistle on set just to keep myself company. And Jeff would always say, and I understand this because he's the boom operator, he's listening to everything. He said, you know, it's funny about whistling. The only person who enjoys whistling is the person who's whistling. Good line. I'm like, Oh, Jeff.

So he heard everything I said about this. And the next time I came into work, he said, yeah, I asked around and I found out who got that part. Maybe the movie was filming at that point, right? Hadn't even released. Because I had previously told a story about this actor running into this, or seeing this actor in an airport. So, Jeff was putting things together, a counter narrative. And he said, yeah, I found out who got that part.

Loni Anderson. And then for a moment I was like, Oh, well, great. I mean, if they wanted Lonnie Anderson, that's no comment on my acting. Like I understand they wanted to go in a different direction. So thanks a lot, Jeff. He's like, no, I'm just fucking with you. It's with Lonnie Anderson. It was actually someone called Hamilton Clancy. Hamilton Clancy got the role

So I was one of those who was left off the Cohen train and I never even got on it I just for true grit, but I didn't get to read for them question about Hamilton Clancy. Is he still with us? Hold on It looks like he is He doesn't have like a Wikipedia page. I'm glad he's alive John thank you for being here. Thank you for being the ultimate utility man serving our needs I know a stupid story to end on I apologize Is there anything additional you want to plug you talked about your new podcast with Jennifer Arne?

He plural of a smado available maximum fun along with judge John Hodgman always available at Mac on Wednesdays on maximum fun Dick town is still available on Hulu. David Reese, a friend of the show. We love him so much. And I are working on a new secret project, but I can't say anything about it because maybe nothing will ever happen. James Bond. Could be.

They're going to do it. Denis Villeneuve directing a script by John Hodgman and David Reese. Right. Yeah, I'm a- Reese is going to play Bond and John will be the villain. No, I'm a fresh new take on Moneypenny. Yeah, oh yeah. Right. Yeah, I'm uh, I'm just gonna play Bond and John will be the villain. No, I'm a fresh new take on Moneypenny Yeah, oh, yeah, right. Yeah, exactly Vacation land and medallions says out and whatever the Hodgman substack comm if you want to listen to me read aloud from Moby Dick

That's something that's happening. I'm not subject to come whatever you can find if you go to there and you subscribe It's free and you'll find out about all the dumb stuff. I'm doing If you want and that's a good place. Everyone should want Ben has asked to do the end as always as I Wind this show down Ben. I want to hand you something It will have been a couple months past by the time this episode comes out But Ben recently celebrated a milestone birthday. Oh, yes that's right. And I commissioned a present for him from friend of the podcast, Kellyn Jett.

Worked on the Ninja Turtle, Mute Mayhem movie, and Spider-Verse, and did a piece for our art show. And when we had the art show opening in March, he said, you know what I thought would be kind of a good idea for a painting? And I said, can you please do this for Ben's birthday? And Ben is now getting a scissors, pair of scissors. I think Ben will immediately be able to identify what he has done.

But I want to just shout out Kellyn Jett for having this notion, seeing it through. Sorry, it's well packaged. Yeah, no. It's to his credit. It's to his credit. And when you're editing, make sure to keep in all the awkward silence. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe mix in a little bit of David's cup of ice as well to cover the time.

Cut my story out about auditions or whatever. Keep it in, do it like six times. Maybe layer it in while he's opening the package again, kind of as an echo. When I went into the audition, I wore a suit. And because I thought that's what you did. And I can't remember what Joel or Ethan said. You dressed up for the audition. Yeah.

Oh my fucking god. Oh, here we are. All right. So number one, we have... He included some bonus sketches, I think some test sketches to land on the final product. It is eye pictured as the young man who I believe kind of opens gummo. It's the rabbit ear wearing young man. It is a painting of Ben as the kid from gummo.

Sitting on a highway overpass smoking a cig. Wow, this is a really cherished thing. This is awesome. Thank you. Very beautiful. Wow. Happy birthday. Thank you.

Yeah. Glad you're alive. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Miller's Crossing. Absolutely. Another movie that I love. Pretty good one.

Ben, anything you want to say to end the episode? Oh yeah. Um... And as always... Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh- Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Bardy Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithey. Research by J.J.

Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Olly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus

episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by BlankCheck Productions.