Blank Check with Griffin & David - Ride with the Devil with Peter Labuza

Episode Date: August 5, 2018

Peter Labuza (The Cinephiliacs podcast, Village Voice) joins Griffin and David to discuss the 1999 Civil War epic, Ride with the Devil. But is Jim Caviezel a weirdo? Does Tobey get his nub back? What is a skuzzin? Together they examine the careers of Tobey Maguire, Jeffrey Wright and Jewel, the film theory of James Schamus and dumb people trying to one up each other. This episode is sponsored by [Hims](https://www.forhims.com/blank).

Blank Check with Griffin and David Blank Check with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check You're supposed to sleep with the wife, Rodell. Great day in the morning, you gotta know that much. Supposed to share her bed. That way if some other man do that, you podcast him.

Sure. Kill? Shoot? Shoot. Hi everybody, I'm sick. I'm, I don't know, I got a little chest thing. You won't stop fucking bragging about how well you're doing. I'm doing okay.

No, you're fucking killing it. On this podcast, if you're level, you're doing. I'm doing okay. No, you're fucking killing it. On this podcast, if you're level, you're ahead. I'm level. You're level. I don't know. There's something up with my... Get out. Stop it.

Uh-huh. Stop feeble signaling. Yeah. Is that the term? Feeble signaling? Feeble signaling? Yeah. You're signaling how feeble you are?

Yeah, that's the term. Well done. I'm Griffin now, man. David Sims. It's a blank check with Griffin and Dave. It's a podcast about filmography. Directors who have massive success early on in their career give a series of blank checks

to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes the check's clear and sometimes they bounce, baby! You are sick. Yeah, I am. Jesus. That's why I said it right up top. It's good that this is the week

we're doing four episodes, then. This is the week you decided to be sick. Hey, hey. Not my choice. All the lights just went on. Why do they keep doing that, Ben? All the lights just went on. Yeah.

I don't know. We tried to mood light our studio, and now we got all the lights. There's a miniseries on the films, Wang Li. It's called Broke Pod Mountcast. Yes, it is. And today we're talking about- Every time it gets the guests, because they don't know. They don't know. It's good. And this time. Yes, it is. And today we're talking about... Every time it gets the guests because they don't know. They don't know.

It's good. And this time... You hear that at the distance? It's a real thinker. Do you hear that? Do you hear that? Open your ears, David. Do you hear that?

No. Boing. Boing. Boing. Boing. Boing. Boing. Boing.

I don't know what you're doing. This is a bounce. Oh, sure. Yeah, this one bounced. This is a bounce. Oh, sure. Yeah, this one bounced. This is a bounce. I was saying before we recorded, by certain metrics, the most unsuccessful movie we've ever covered on this podcast. Yeah.

It didn't lose the most money, you were saying. And we've covered films that have grossed less but had less of a release. But still, in terms of utter failure, it's up there. Right, this movie just like no one, it got no recognition. They're never going to make their money back on this one. But they do have a Criterion now. They do have a sexy Criterion, which is, you know.

And a director's cut and all that fancy jazz. That's true. Yeah, dual format, you know. Maybe, yeah. How much do you think you make on a Criterion? I think it depends. Gosh. I mean, what's your, give me an estimate. I don't know. You know, I did a little work for Masters of Cinema. Okay. What kind of numbers are they pulling down?

You know, the thing is, I never saw the numbers. I just did the booklets. I got a flat fee for the booklets, and that was it. I knew they had a five to seven year rights in order to, so when you bought the rights, say if you bought it, say this year, you had seven years to actually produce a disc before you lost the rights. That's the one thing I knew about

what Criterion's model was. Because Criterion very rarely has rights lapse. I wonder if they're just renewing constantly? Probably, and now with Filmstruck, and when they were doing the Hulu, I think they just started really just, they would put the stuff like, that's why the Elaine May, Mikey, and Nikki ended up there,

is because they had the rights to the streaming as well, so they could just put it on that with the unrestored edition that they had with the intention that one day maybe we'll do this. Because this movie, I would say, conservatively lost $50 million. Something around there. So, you know,

you're going to need to sell a lot of Criterion's to make that back. And I think Criterion said the ones that have sold the best for them are the

ones that were produced by mainstream studios where they had the couple of examples like Royal Tenenbaums, Benjamin Button,

maybe one other I'm forgetting, where the Criterion was the only mass-release version of the film sold in Walmart back in the early 2000s, when DVD was still booming. Love a DVD. But this film came out at the cusp of the dawn of the DVD revolution. We were just sort of ascending the DVD tower.

1999. 1999. Yeah. The great year for American cinema, right? Right. For all cinema, right? I don't know. Everyone always talks about 1999. Right.

And a Taiwanese director. Yes. Yes. You're coming in hot. I'm trying to think of what's going on in the rest of world cinema. I guess you've got... Oh, you got like Rosetta, right?

Yeah. You got like some fun... When Will Carry Us by Abbas Kiarostami. Is All About My Mother 99? Yes. It is. Rat Catcher comes out in 1999.

Mononoke comes out in America. That's an awful book. Right. And the single finest American film of all time comes out in 1999. We'll get to that later. Yeah, Toy Story 2.

We'll get to that later. Eyes Wide Shut. The Matrix. We'll get to that later. Yeah, Toy Story 2. We'll get to that later. Uh-huh, yeah. Ice White Shot. The Matrix. We had the Clinton presidency. Whatever that's worth. Clinton, right. That's boiling along.

Which is the second best American film of all time. Blair Witch. Right. You know. Magnolia. A Taiwanese filmmaker on the rise.

A man who was just going up and up and up decides he's going to make his American Civil War epic. Sure. They've all got to do it. And no one shows up. A tumbleweed blows through 60 theaters at its maximum. Yeah, pretty much. But our guest today has gone on the record saying this is his favorite Ang Lee film.

Is that correct? Yeah, I think I would hold to that. You know, Crouching Tiger is close, but I'd say those two are clearly the best. Clearly. Wow. This is going to be a good episode. This is what I like. Yeah.

Guns a blazing, talking before he's introduced, making big proclamations. Hair swinging in the wind. As a Midwestern. Where are you from? I'm from Minnesota. Okay. Minnesota. Oh yeah, you betcha.

Great movie. But it would be Missouri. I'm sure actually people from there are hearing me say it and saying, well, you're not exactly saying it right. It's kind of like that whole CanCon debate sort of thing. But it's Missouri. Missouri. Well, let whole Can-Con debate sort of thing. But it's Missouri. Missouri. Well, let me try to pronounce the title of this film correctly.

It's Ride with the Devil? Okay. Is that right? Yeah, sure. Ride with the Devil. Okay. It's called Ride with the Devil. There you go. It's a 1999 Civil War epic. Tobey Maguire, Skeet Ulrich joint. Skeet Ulrich first build in this movie.

We've got to talk about that. That was a moment in history. That's weird. Because he's not on the poster. He's not first build on the poster. No, but in the credits, he is pointedly first build. And, you know, he's a U. You know, there's no alphabet to hide behind with him.

No sirree. He's one of the rare you stars. I guess this is the scream bump? I mean, he'd been in Scream. That's three years earlier. Right. He had established that in terms of... Is he in Chill Factor?

In terms of greasy, poor men's Johnny Depp, he was as good as it gets. Sure. I always forget that he was as good as it gets is after Scream. Right. I think of as good as it gets as like, oh, he's very young, you know, because he's such a small role. Yeah. No, it's after

Scream. No, Scream was like his first big movie role. What about Albino Alligator? It was the second big movie role. Apparently he was in something called Boys. Okay, I'm gonna stand by a second. I've never heard of that movie. Oh boy, I've heard of that movie. He's, I've heard of that movie.

He's in The Craft. Right. Obviously. He was one of those guys where everyone was like, this is a movie star, right? I guess he's pretty. Because he checked all the boxes except being compelling.

He was third billed in The Newton Boys though. Okay. And then Chill Factor, in which he was, okay, he was second billed. I was about to say, if he was billed over Cuba, that'd be rude. Is this his only first billed movie?

So he's in two movies with Cuba Gooding Jr. in two years, practically. Those two must be best pals. They were trying to make Fetch happen. And then after this, this is the last movie he was in that anyone has ever heard of. Then he kind of disappears. And he was in Armored. Does that count? No.

Our guest today is Peter Labuza. He gets the WIV billing in Armored. Peter Labuza does? Yes, he does. It was one of my favorite films to work with, Nimrod Antal. Well done. Great to collaborate with.

Good call. With Peter Labuza. The director of Predators. And Matt Dillon was the billing on that movie. Yeah, right. He of the Cinephiliacs podcast. Thank you so much for being here, Peter. I am absolutely delighted to be here.

Thank you guys for allowing me to join on the devil ride. Exactly. Yeah, of course. An out-of-town guest. It's going to be quite a ride. So we flew you first class. Of course. Great champagne on there.

They actually got the guys, Vinnie and Franks. Okay. Vinnie and Franks are actually doing airplane food now. They're a popular LA joint. Sorry. I'm speaking LA speak right now. I love airplane food. I got to say, sometimes I think that's some of the best food there is.

Are you doing a bit? No. Okay. It's very Griffin food, actually, when you think about it. Yeah. My problem actually is, bits aside, I think airplane food is putting on airs a little too much these days. Oh, sure. Like, you'd rather it was just chicken nuggets.

Yeah. Not like Cock-O-Van. Right, right. It's like microwave chicken. Exactly. Right, right. That's my problem. When it's like squash spaghetti.

We're actually doing airplane food talk right now? You know it's not spaghetti. It's squash cut into spaghetti. Sure. Does anyone know why they have that spot for the razor blade on the planes? They actually don't have those anymore. They used to though. Yeah. I don't. The spot for the razor blade. Can you imagine

trying to shave on a plane actually? Like think about like you're going to hit some turbulence. There's going to be a lot of blood everywhere. That's a good point. And I'm sure that happened to someone. I'm sorry. I'm drinking my coffee. This movie's got a lot of blood, too. This got a lot of blood. This got a lot of blood.

Hey, you know what I found out that I didn't know? Go ahead. You know what I found out that I didn't know? What a fucking repetitive sentence. What'd you find out? Do you know that Ang Lee served in the military? Yeah. I think I mentioned that on our first episode.

Conscripted, right? Yeah. It's his national service, essentially, right? For the republic of china right aka taiwan because i i did a little more uh research into i think he was in the navy background yes i just know he did military service he was in the navy okay um he uh didn't think about going into the arts because it was not something that anyone around him kind of encouraged. He tested so poorly

that the local art school was one of those sort of holding schools where you could do a year until you tested again to get into a proper university. Then he falls in love with acting. Realizes he doesn't speak well enough. Too shy. Sure. Then he falls in love

with filmmaking. And his wife, Jane. Yes. They met in college. Right. Goes to NYU, graduates. Then, I think, does his service. Well, he does the Spike Lee movie at one point, where he's an assistant on it. Yeah, he's an assistant on Joe's Bedside Barbershop.

No, he did his Navy before he went to America. Okay, so it's in between drama school and NYU? I guess so. I think that's onebershop. No, he did his Navy before he went to America. Okay, so it was in between drama school and NYU? I think so. I think that's one it is. And then he lives in an apartment

in White Plains with his wife and his children. And she's the breadwinner. And he's making breakfast, lunch, and dinner for the kids. Sure. And writing his scripts.

And he's pals with, lunch, and dinner for the kids. Sure. And writing his scripts. And he's pals with Jimmy. Jimmy S. Well, this is what I found out. Because we had asked, how did they get hooked up in the first place? Sure, sure. Seamus and Hope had set up Good Machine. Right. And they were the New York City, no budget guys.

We're going to help you make your movie, support the directors when you got no budget. Ang Lee had entered into this contest, won first and second place for Wedding Banquet and for Pushing Hands, and went to them and said, I heard you guys are good at making something for no money, and James Shamus says it was the single most boring meeting he had ever had in his entire life. Great.

Ang Lee proceeded to explain shot by shot what the movie was, and he said it was thoroughly boring. Like, about, like, the wedding banquet or pushing hands or something? I think both. Sure. Pushing hands more so was the priority. Okay. And he said it was really boring, but he knew exactly what the movie

was, which is more than most people have going for them. Right. And he had the money. He had the money from China. They were going to finance most of it. So Seamus turned to Hope and said, why not? This is already the biggest budget we've got and why not take a chance on this guy? And then after pushing hands,

he got a little more involved with the wedding banquet script. And so there's a good crux of a thing here. You should try to push it more into the screwball comedy thing. And that's where their partnership really kind of blooms with this push and pull between the two of them. And now we're in this run of post Sense and Sensibility, Seamus bringing material to Ang Lee.

Hey, I read a book. You should check this out. But he's the one who falls in love with the book. Ang Lee is the one who really wants to do this project, which was surprising when I was doing my little bit of research I did for coming on here. I was like, this seemed, I thought this was going to be,

this was going to be a James Seamus. James Seamus loves 50 West, 50 1950s Westerns. Yes. Transgressive Westerns. Right in his sort of wheelhouse,

kind of prestige-y, but not necessarily like, you know, totally Oscar bait. Right. And yet this is like ang Lee's like passion project that he wants to do huh because ang Lee's in is it is a coming-of-age film with the civil war as a backdrop right and it's right it's about like being an outsider you know and

it's people who don't have the time to figure out who they are in the world because all this fucking bloody chaos is happening around. But they're also not in the film that I relate this closest to, I think, in terms of like narrative historical trajectories is taking Woodstock in a way because they're both about characters who are clearly in the like the midst of giant historical things happening. Right. But they're not in the epicenter. They're just off to the side.

Right. Right. And that's what I think is kind of most interesting as we'll get into this movie is like it's about a bunch of people who clearly realize they're in a huge moment of history and yet their actions and ideas have

absolutely no consequence. It's a sidelines epic. Unquestionably. And then it also does this weird subversive thing with the Jeffrey Wright character. Who like becomes the lead sort of by the end. And then it also does this weird subversive thing with the Jeffrey Wright character. Yeah. Yeah. Who like becomes the lead sort of by the end. Definitely.

But doesn't really have dialogue for the first like hour and 15 minutes. Sure. It's sort of just like a featured extra for the first hour. Well, he's an object of fascination though. Like you're like, why is he here? Is this like one of his first big roles I'm trying to remember? Well, you know, he's a Tony winner. He's a stage actor. He'd been in

Angels in America in the original cast. So he won the Tony. So he's sort of like And then Spasskyot is his first big movie. And then there's Spasskyot in 1996, which I mean, that movie has such a flashy ensemble around him. But he's good in it. I think he's great in the film. And he won the Spirit Award, I want to say.

I believe he won the Spirit Award in the film. And he won the Spirit Award, I want to say. I believe he won the Spirit Award for that film. And he said this was the first time he had ever been offered a role that he didn't have to audition for. Ride Where the Devil Is? Yes.

Because Ang Lee had liked He was just nominated for Best Debut Performance. Weirdly, Benicio Del Toro won Best Supporting Actor. Which is very bizarre because that's a very small role.

Yeah, well, that's back when the Spirits were like, I don't know, let's nominate Cole Hauser for Tigerland. They may not have even had an open bar at that time. Jesus Christ. That's like the most important thing about the Spirit Awards now. The 10 must

have been so little. God, the Spirit Awards this year were so fucking depressing. I was so mad about the Spirit Awards this year. Even though, like, Get Out was a fine feature winner. I think they need to put a harsher budget cap on the Spirit. I think they need to really separate church and state

by being like. But then they wouldn't get all their money. I know. It's over. You need a new thing like the real Spirited Awards. I don't know. I think Benicio was the Walter Brennan of the Spirit Awards where he won supporting actor like three times in the first 12 years.

I think he won for Usual Suspects as well. Thank you. Good reference. I'm giving myself good reference points. But Basquiat was the big thing because he'd sort of come out of theater to be like flashy ensemble. He's the unknown New York theater guy playing a famous artist. He won two years in a row.

Usual Suspects Basquiat is two years in a row. Then he wins a special distinction award for 21 grams. That's like for the whole cast. The Basquiat thing's weird because he's like the fourth best supporting performance in that movie. Sure. I don't think that movie's great, but it's got good performances

in it. I remember seeing 21 grams. He's amazing in 21 grams. I think he's amazing in 21 grams. That movie, yeah. Del Toro's pretty good because he's just sort of like,

you know, trying to bring it back to like some sort of like place where humans exist. Is he in the Morris Peros as well? No.

Okay. No. But I, I contended that he would have won the Oscar that year had he not won for Traffic. Possibly. Because that was the Robbins year

which was like, it's that weird year where it's that weird year where it's like tim robbins won yeah robbins for mystic river del toro is next level in 21 grams and 21 grams is a cup of diarrhea it's a steaming cup of diarrhea it's about how your soul weighs 21 grams jesus christ have you seen you have seen it i saw it i remember that like you know they basically probably took what it was a finished script and it it's like, well, let's just edit it in whatever way we want. Right.

Yep. Pretty much. But no. Okay. Back on track. Daniel Woodrell, who I have read his story, his,

my God, his movie, his book. What? Tomato Red. Don't worry. I only took you five times. I love reading movies.

Jesus Christ. And I read Winner's Bone. Okay. Oh, same writer writer as Winter's Bone? yes also Midwest Southern twang Missouri he likes to write about the Ozarks

so you gotta take a ride before you get boned David you must take a ride before you get boned the book is called Woe to Live On which is a real great, it's a blockbuster title, if I ever heard one. But no, I was dating someone who was a real Woodrell fan.

So I read a couple of Woodrells back in the day. And then Winter's Bone is a great movie, and this is a great movie. So 100% success rate if you adapt as movies. I think it's a short book, is it not? Yeah, they're all short. Right. And this is a long movie.

It's a long-ass movie. I think this was sort of one of those starting point adaptations where they kind of blossom their own thing out of the book. Am I wrong about that? That's the sense I got. I mean, they wed the Lawrence Massacre. The Lawrence Massacre is not as like crucial to the book. The sort of epic

set pieces of the film are sure but this is he's kind of on this like non-stop run where what I mean E-Drink Man Woman is coming out and landing big in the states while

he's already on sense and sensibility when sense and sensibility is on its oscar run he's already filming the ice storm the ice storm doesn't perform well commercially but is well respected yeah but he's not really on a run anymore i'd say this is a little more of like okay and like you know what do you got this is a big cash yeah it's a lot of money put into this movie. He's putting a lot of like somewhat unknown actors in the lead roles. Toby's rising. Jewel had not been

in a film before. Jeffrey Wright was like an actor. She'd been in a car before. She'd been in a car. Yeah. She'd been in a van. For napping.

She'd lived in a van down by the river. Yeah. Yeah, because Toby had been in Pleasantville in between Ice Storm and this. But that doesn't suggest like,

you know, put this guy as the lead. I mean, because all those performances are... No, no. In this type of movie, no. But he certainly, he seemed to be approved as a leading man underneath a certain budget level.

This is also... Even in epic is weird. Well, this is also the same year as Cider House Rules though, which is sort of an epic. Which that movie rules. Kind of a quasi-epic. Cider House Rules. That movie sort of an epic. Which that movie rules. Cider House Rules.

That movie blows. Yeah, that movie sucks. I don't know. Do you like Cider House Rules? I've never seen it. Yeah, you know. He learned the rules of the Cider House

abortions. I was in a summer camp production of Cider House Rules once. Really? I was really angry I didn't get the good part. There's the one kid

who dies, right? Yeah. That was the part to get. I guess so. Because then you got to go back to your bunker early. of the Cider who dies, right? Yeah. That was the part to get. I guess so. Because then you got to go back to your bunker early. The Cider House Rules? Yeah, I think it was a play before they adapted it into a film. What? It's a book. I think they adapted from the book into a play

and then adapted the book into a film. Maybe. And I wanted to play Curly, I think, as the kid who dies. And I got stuck playing the Rory Culkin role, maybe? No. It's Kieran Culkin. Buster. I think that's the

good role, though. He's the one who dies, I think. I played someone shitty. Erykah Badu was in that movie. It was her debut. Oh, that's the role I played. Yeah, right. Can you confirm or deny a rumor I heard about Jewel? You're right.

It was adapted as a stage play. I'm so mad about that. Thank you. Yeah, it was. What's the rumor? On Bucks Rock Creative and Performing Arts Camp. Fun fact about Jewel. I don't know if you guys know this.

I did a little research. She lived in a car. Wow. And I don't know if you know this. What I heard, at least, is that her hands are small, but they're her own. I keep thinking it's Sheryl Crow. It's not Sheryl Crow. Same vibe, same time.

You know, I just keep, when I see her on screen, I'm like, I want to soak up the sun. That's like mostly what I kept thinking. But that's even like second wave Sheryl Crow. Yeah, because Sheryl Crow was a little rougher around the edges before that that was like right done a bad bad thing right

wasn't that did one of her songs start that way I don't know I don't know maybe I was just thinking about her was it like a virgin

was that her was that Jewel yes sorry I'm a millennial wow wow I'm coming out here on the show

as a millennial as a Jewel hating here on the show. As a millennial? Yes. As a Jewel-hating millennial? As a Jewel-hating millennial. Jewel was like, I mean, she was a big thing. I feel like we were all talking about Jewel. She's a big thing right now. At this moment.

At this moment, and like not much before, not much after. No. She was a bit of a flash in the pan. She had two albums that were big, and then she sort of fluttered away. There was like a 2003 attempt to be like, now I'm going to be poppier. Do you remember that? She like went on TRL and wore midriffs yeah sure no of course right she was trying to play but her first album pieces of you yeah sold 7.3 million copies in the u.s that's a lot and then hands is on the second album spirit which was her second album that has hands hands

that sold 3.7 so So, you know, yeah. And then her next one was called This Way. This is the Poppy album. That sold 1.5. So there's a... All right. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. All right. That's like a hyperbole. You get like half and half each time. Yeah. It really is. But this is that thing of like, oh, you've had like a big album or two.

Now you get to... And she did a dance album called 0304. Oh, that's the one I was really thinking of. She really fell off. Yes. And then I think she tried to go back to country music. I think now she's just in like... Now she's hardcore like country.

She's just in the country zone and she does USO shows. She's in the country zone and she does Hallmark movies. She played June Carter Cash. Did she? In Walk the Line? They did a lifetime Walk the Line with hers, June Carter Cash. Yes, it's called ring of fire matt ross director of captain fantastic yeah he's a great actor matt ross yeah he is yeah yeah he

looks more like johnny cash gavin belson yeah i'll never get over fucking joaquin phoenix laughing and walk uh walk the line is that scene where he's got the peanuts uh-huh and he keeps she's like give me a peanut and he's like okay and then he puts it in his mouth every time is a bit and every time she's like oh Johnny and he's like it's very weird I think about that all the time I'm surprised anyone remembers anything

I feel like when Dewey Cox came out I feel like it just erased all those things Dewey Cox is a brutal slam to Walk the Line there's no question because then you blend a lot of the real scenes from Walk the Line

into Walk Hard yeah for sure Ang Lee said he cast Jewel because it feels like this is like a studio thing where it's like

she's good in this movie I think she's good yeah she's terrific and I think it was weirdly I think it hurt the film because people were like oh yeah cashing in

on like the flavor of the week yeah and also she's billed as Jewel right like you could call her Jewel Kilture or whatever

you know like you know it makes it seem a little cheesy and then I think the fact that the film flopped so hard kind of killed her film career in the bud he said he cast her solely because of her teeth

because he thought they looked era appropriate which feels like that seems rude that seems like a classic Ang Lee burn like him telling Emma Thompson she looked too old.

That's the thing. The more we've been studying Ang Lee, the more it comes out that he says all these things where it's like his best directions are like, no, you are tired. Yeah, right. And his worst directions are like, stop being so fat.

Yeah, right. Uh-huh. But he cast her because of her teeth. Great. Cast Toby, who he clearly has taken a liking to. Sure. but he cast her because of her teeth great cast Toby who he clearly has taken a liking to sure

and is such a weird leading man he's fascinating he's such a weird little puppy dog guy I mean it's you watch him in this film

it's weird because he's I mean one is he's playing he's the dumbest person on screen he is a dumb motherfucker

this is a film all about dumb people trying to one-up each other in terms of their stupidity levels. But yeah, this film does not beat around the bush re-his dumbness. No. So does that make him appropriate for the film? We seriously consider this guy is really, really unintelligent, and so he plays it well. It just doesn't make necessarily for your classical leading man in any way.

Even in like a coming of age sort of mode. He's not a guy because he is so, for someone who did become a studio leading man, and even before Spider-Man was top line in pictures, he's got such a high-pitched voice. He's so doughy-eyed. He's so vulnerable. Doughy-faced, right? He does feel like this wounded little

animal. He's very capable of playing intelligence at times, but this movie, it's like some combination of the fact that he seems a little out of his depth as an actor works for the character because the guy wants to be like the hero of the war and isn't

really suited for I mean they set him up really well with his father where the dad's just sort of like you don't have to do all of this and he's like no I do I'm gonna prove that I'm bankable in studio pictures the thing is these types of performances are kind of like my favorite, though, where it's like an actor who's maybe just out of his league,

but the director knows how to use him well. I just, because I saw. The Barry Lyndon. I saw, no, and I saw this last week. I saw Sean Penn in Carlito's Way. Sure. And that's like a performance. Oh, interesting.

Every bad thing about Sean Penn suddenly becomes great in that movie. I mean, I do love performances like that. Sean Penn's hysterical. And I think you compare him to, he's also doing so much business, but you compare Tobey Maguire in this to Skeet Ulrich in this, who's just kind of like going through the motions. Sure. You know?

Skeet Ulrich is, he's a face in this movie, I would say. Right. And like Tobey's so out of sorts that he is constantly engaging you know like he works as a good dummy lead but like the real hero

of this movie is Jeffrey Wright laying and waiting like it's what you love about Sicario it's like he's just sort of like off to the side I don't know if that's what I love about Sicario because I don't think I love love about Sicario. It's like he's just sort of like off to the side. I don't know if that's what I love about Sicario because I don't think I love anything about Sicario. No, the thing you love about Sicario is that Benicio Del Toro

That's my impression of George Clooney. sleeps Sicario! Not Sicario. That's Siriana. I literally because Jeffrey writes in Sicario. That's what I thought you were talking about.

No, no, no. I mean he's in Siriana. He's not in Sicario. He's not in Sicario. I'm not doing well clearly clearly i keep calling books movies all right yeah uh yeah you're saying you're waiting for him to like wake up for the last third of the movie essentially like benicio and jeffrey wright is just in the background for so much of the film and obviously we're watching it now with like

an added 20 years of jeffrey wright work so we know he's not going to do nothing in this movie sure but he's above the title yeah they in this movie. Sure. But he's above the title. They clearly introduce him with some importance and then it takes him so long to actually kind of like bloom. But it is, that's the thing. It's like this is a movie about the Civil War

from the side of the people who were wrong working with But not soldiers too. They're very particular Bushwhackers a bunch of Daniel Stearns the Missouri Irregulars but that's like the weird thing

they're like fighting for a cause but they have no I don't mean there's no references to like General Lee or what's going on in Gettysburg or any of that stuff that's all just like two sides they're just guerrilla for Missouri. It doesn't even seem like, I mean, that's the thing.

Like, do we see that many quote-unquote slaves besides like Jeffrey Wright, who's free. So they're just fighting for the sake of fighting. It feels very territorial and very much just about sort of the ego. I mean, there's... Yes, but then there's also

the threat of like, well, if I joined the South, then I get shipped off to the front. You know, I get shipped off to the real battle, which seems like a death sentence and horrible, so I don't want to do that either.

But there's also the air of conspiracy around, like that's like, you know, anyone is kind of fair game to be killed, including like your family members. I mean, that's like the whole subplot with Mark Ruffalo

that, you know, gets a few scenes in there. the whole subplot with Mark Ruffalo that gets a few scenes in there. A baby face. Baby face Mark Ruffalo. It's one of those weird we'll get into the plot later, but it's you get the sense that you have to do this if you're a man from the ages of

17 to 35. There's a total peer pressure thing going on. And Toad Maguire's character is called Dutchie by everyone. Right. Because he's German. And he's got this chip on his shoulder

that he feels like he constantly needs to prove that he's a real American. This is back when being German was like, I don't know, buddy. Yeah. Like, yeah, right.

Yeah. Not a good look. Not a good look. But that's like his sort of defining sort of quality, isn't it? That and his nub. His little nub. His little nub. He's really fucking sort of defining sort of quality. That and his nub. His little nub.

His little nub. He's really fucking protective of that nub. Got a little nub. Yeah, those are his nubs. He gets his nub back by the end of the movie. Yes, he does. Toby got his nub back. I was going to say how Dutchie got his nub back.

Oh, boy. This movie? Uh-huh. Oh, I thought you were just going to say that weird joke. I was going to say that joke. Great. The Zach Grenier scene is where I think the thing kind of crystallizes. Okay.

Where he admits he's like, we're going to lose this. Right. We're going to lose this because we're not really fighting for anything. Yeah, no, they never really state the cause exactly. There's an early scene at the wedding that the film opens where you've got like three random characters that we never see in the rest of the base.

They lay down the exposition. They're there to be like, this is what's going on, this is what the movie's about in terms of the great causes. But Zach Granat kind of says like, they know what they're fighting for, and we just know what we're fighting against. And that's why they're going to win.

And they got the schools. Right. And Toby doesn't like... Good old Kansas education. Yeah. Toby and Skeeter are like, no, you're wrong, we'll win, we'll win. And then once he explains that,

they're like, I can't really argue with that. And it's clear that they're not that personally invested. You know? Yeah, again, there's not a lot of ideology at work here right and they're an odd group of people yes um especially like toby and skeet uh and simon baker and jeffrey right like that's an odd match yes for a gorilla clan like basically an aristocrat and his like childhood slave now friend yeah but also let's just point out the fact that over half this movie is not them quote unquote even fighting it's them like waiting

around during winters or injuries and doing absolutely nothing because this is an actual civil war movie where it's like it's all the quote-unquote. You know, the film that reminded me was a little bit like Jarhead, the Jake Gyllenhaal desert storm movie, right?

Because it's all about what you do when you're actually not fighting. The only big battle, of course, is the Lawrence, Kansas massacre, which is not a battle. They think it's going to be a battle, though. They're pumped up for a battle. And then they're like, are we just shooting men in this town who are defenseless? Can I throw out a hot take? Civil War is really fucking

dumb. It's pretty dumb. It was like the dumbest fucking war. I hate it so much. You heard about states, right? Wait a second. I just... I am well established on this podcast. I don't like war movies. I have a hard time engaging.

Whenever I get to Civil War shit, I'm just like, fucking cut it out. Hey, guys. Cut it out, guys. Well, I was trying to think about, like, why was this movie made and given, like, 40 million? Like, why are, like, James and Aang going to go to, like, Universal and, you know, really pitch this? And it's like, well, and we're tying off Mike. Like, you have Gettysburg in 93. Sure. And that's a pretty big hit but you don't really

have that many I guess like maybe they would have been in production by the time like Saving Private Ryan and Thin Red Line like do World War II and do really well

but it's like there's kind of a war boom that happens right after this yeah but so or I guess concurrent yeah so yeah I'm trying to it's kind of like

what is like the you know it's kind of you want to be in that pitch room like what's the pitch that's like a prestige maybe oscar baity civil war movie about southerners about like people on the other side but i also feel like i feel like there are a couple factors at play one is that david you and i have talked about this a bunch that with like the sort of canonical directors there's the notion that you kind of have to check certain things off the list and it's like okay Ang Lee

is like developed into someone major he's got to make a war movie at some point right I guess so yeah or at the very least make a historical epic and this is maybe like crossing both off at one time and there also is that kind of thing of like it's kind of like a workhorse genre

and it like allows you to get like a bunch of young up-and-coming actors and put them all in the mud together. This movie is like a breeding ground for a bunch of guys who they thought maybe would turn into leading men in the 90s. It's like Caviezel, Simon Baker, Jonathan Rhys-Myers, Skeet Ulrich. And then it's like Ruffalo pops. You have these little guys at the sidelines who turn into more. But I'm looking at, like, Civil War movies of the 1990s.

And there are movies like Dances with Wolves, but those don't count. You know, that are, like, set sort of in the vicinity, but they're not actually about the conflict. Great movie, but that's not a Civil War movie, really. But it's humongous. No, no. But I'm saying there's the two movies. But it is humongous no no but i'm saying there's the two movies but it is humongous the two movies

of the 90s the only two movies in the 90s that are actual civil war movies the real 90s kids would remember exactly are glory and gettysburg okay and glory is huge glory was a big hit yeah and that's more of like your well yeah it's more of your classic like gung-ho civil war movie about the good guys fighting the bad guys. Gettysburg is, that's a movie for dads, right? That's like the history channel of the movie. I wonder if they pitched this

more as a Western than anything else. I mean, because you've got that sense of, yeah, you've got this, you know, closer to Missouri, so you've got this, like, more, like, atmospheric look

than maybe the South is going to get you. Right. I mean, it's a gorgeous movie. I'll say this. Yeah, I never, like, I for a long time I mean, it's a gorgeous movie. I'll say this. The environment is gorgeous. I, for a long time, didn't know it was a Civil War movie

and thought it was a Western. When I would go to my local video store that was organized by director, I remember always getting Quick and the Dead and Ride with the Devil confused. Because I was like, this is kind of same time period,

movie stars who were just kind of on the rise, directors misfiring with cowboy hats. I'm just looking at this list, though. There's not a lot of Civil War movies in general. Like in the 2000s, there's just Gods and Generals, which is Gettysburg 2. And Cold Mountain, which is like kind of a fun Civil War movie. That's like a weird. There's like a lot of quatrain, like Lawrence Kansas

Massacre silent films made in like the hundreds and tens and twenties. The list is long in the tens and twenties. Yeah. Oh boy.

When basically you could cast the real people more or less. Right, right, right. Yeah, everyone's pulling a 1517 to Paris. I guess it's also a genre that like Gone with the Wind

like looms so large. But even that doesn't have a lot of battle in it. Even that's more of a home front movie. But I also think that's like every 15 years someone's like, could I make a new Gone with the Wind? Lincoln's kind of a Civil War movie. It is.

I mean, it's set during the Civil War. There's a battle in it briefly. There's a shot, basically. There's like three shots. Three shots of people in mud Dane DeHaan gets his face put on the ground I mean there's Gettysburg and like Cold Mountain

are movies that like restage Civil War battle and glory those are movies that actually and the Lawrence Massacre sort of counts so I guess this too Captain America Civil War that's the problem you google Civil War movie that's what comes up number one what a great Civil War movie. That's what comes up now.

What a great Civil War it was. They totally fought and we're definitely never going to be friends in the next movie. That was when I was writing for LA. That was my one full-time critic gig for a while. That was the first movie I had to review. Civil War? Yeah. And I had not seen a Marvel film in

five years. What's going on here? This is a lot of things. I got to turn in we had to review. Civil War? Yeah. And I had not seen a Marvel film in like five years. Oh, wow. And I was just like, what's going on here? This is a lot of things. I got to turn in a copy by tomorrow night. Yep. We'll figure it out. How funny would it be

if there was like a four VHS, eight hour version of Captain America Civil War that they played in history classes now? Yeah.

And they were like, so Ant-Man is kind of... Yeah, he's sort of the Missouri of this situation. He's sort of divided. Yeah. Hawke were like, so Ant-Man is kind of... Yeah, he's sort of the Missouri of this situation. He's sort of divided. Yeah, Hawkeye's kind of underused, I would say. Yeah, right.

Considering they have Jeremy Renner. You think Hawkeye's just going to get a shotgun to the face in the first scene of the new one? And they'll be like, that's why he's not in it. Right? That's why he got top billing. Right, exactly. My hope is, this is billing right exactly my hope is

this is my hope my hope is that everyone dies in Infinity War and then Avengers 4 is just Hawkeye sure right he's like

alright gotta do it myself got my bow got my rose my arrows is it rose? does he have kids too?

that was something that happened he's got at least good for him it's him and Linda Cardellini maybe three yeah he landed with Linda Cardellini

I hope Avengers 4 is National Lampoon's Hawkeye and it's Hawkeye Vacation right and it's Hawkeye Linda Cardellini and two kids

who are recast from Age of Ultron the vacation movie yeah that's what I want you could be in it you could be one of the kids

I could be one of Hawkeye's kids you could be Renner's kids yeah right yeah slap some sort of Vaseline on your face Yeah. Yeah. That's what I want. You could be in it. You could be one of the kids. I could be one of Hawkeye's kids. You could be Renek's kids. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah, slap some sort of Vaseline on your face. Cousin that comes from like Russia or something. I could be the scuzzy cousin.

Oh, yeah. The scuzzin? There's some scuzzins in Ride with the Devil. Yeah, this is scuzzin. They're all scuzzins, right? So what's the plot of Ride with the Devil? Well... Starts out as sort of a hootenanny.

Yeah, starts out a hootenanny. Begins and ends with a wedding. Parallelism. Very nice. A box social. Yeah. As you said, there's a lot of charged conversation where it's like, well, we support the North and you support the South.

And you're over there. You're kind of in the middle. I'm not sure. You know, what do you say? Ruffalo's doing some good head tilting and mumbling. Oh, I don't know. A little romance Toby's going to be married off to the

not so petite woman and Toby makes it very clear that getting married is for fucking losers it's for nerds and losers what does he want to do? join the pussy posse he's joined he's been pressed into service

the toll has been taken is this movie just a metaphor for that? He's joined. He's joined at this point. He's been pressed into service. He's in too deep. Yeah. The toll has been taken. Yeah, is this movie just a metaphor for that? Yes. Where it's like he's got like a thousand yard stare after years with the pussy posse? It's ostensibly about the Civil War, but it's actually about the New York nightclub scene of the late 90s. Yeah, right. It's a cruising sequel. Yes.

Yes. Lucas Haas is the Skeetle or a character who goes down early. I'm so sick David clearly can't wait to watch Ready Player One with you yeah well okay so box social hootenanny wedding everyone's dancing

having fun Toby hates marriage he and his old buddy what's Skeetle name in this film Ske Skidork's name and it's a great name is Jack Bull Childs. Jesus Christ. Jack Bull Childs. Yep. Childs. I always like there's a lot of good like

we're going to refer by someone to their full name in this when they're angry. Jack Bull Childs. Yeah. They are going to become Bushwhacker. His name is made for being referred to angrily. Yeah. They're going to become Bushwhackers. His name is made for being referred to angrily. They're going to become Bushwhackers. Well, no.

Well, there's, you know, the father gets killed. There's like an inciting incident. Oh, right. Yes. Yes. Sort of. It's sort of like moody, though, and weird. Like, it's not like some, like, easy.

It's just we see this aftermath of like a. We see him get shot. We see him get shot. Shot right in the head. Well, yeah, we do. But I just like just don't we like open on a burning house like

yeah there's a lot of burning houses throughout this movie just like that's that's like the repetitive metaphor it's like let's burn houses there's your budget right there

it's just like well let's build this mansion and burn it right and it's yeah it's a lot of like a metaphor of adolescence

where right at any time people could just storm through and set everything on fire. For now ask questions later. Right you know so Jack Bull's dad is murdered by Jayhawkers

who are the Kansans. How dare they. Who support the union. Yeah. And so they join the Bushwhackers. Well really we just fade out and then we go to this scene where, is that then we meet Jim Caviezel's character, right? Yes. And he's just at this regular,

he's a union man, he's, you know, going to this, just trading post or whatever, and they're talking or whatever, and pulls out, guess what, we're killing all you motherfuckers, and everyone shows up and shoots it all. They kill, like, the, you know, like the wife is like please don't kill my husband

and just shoots him right there and they burn the whole place down this part of the movie feels like V18 like it feels like here's just a bunch of rap scallions who are going around burning stuff making a mess of things Caviezel's intense in this movie

Black John Ambrose, that's his name. He's definitely in that period where this is right after the Thin Red Line. You give him a little part and he goes like, hey, can I do as much as I possibly can for this? I'm planning on playing him as Haunted. Is that a good call, do you think?

Right, an infinite well of emotion. Is that cool? Is that a cool choice? My eyes are going to shimmer at all times. My angel eyes. Yeah, I all times. Yeah. Yeah. My angel eyes. Right. Yeah. I got the sense that he could.

Yep. There you go. He's really got a Christ complex going on here. Hey, now. I feel like 90s Pepper and 90s Caviezel. Is he a weird guy? I think he's kind of a weird guy. Isn't he a weird guy?

He does a lot of movies with weird people to not be a weird guy. I don't think weird bad. Okay. I think just weird is the sense i get uh well apparently he hates stem cell research okay weird bad and filmed an ad against it that began with him saying in aramaic which he did learn for the passion of christ uh-huh you betray the son of man with a kiss. And the director said, Jim, this is supposed to be a Carl's Jr. commercial. That's a little wild.

Talk about the Western bacon ranch burger. He also requested that Jennifer Lopez wear a top during his sex scene with her in Angel Eyes out of respect for his wife. So was he just super religious? And he donated to Rick Santorum. I guess so. Yeah, he's a very religious man. He just played Paul, the

Apostle of Christ, right? Jesus Christ. Is he in that movie? Yeah. Wow. Does he not play Paul? He plays Luke. Okay. One of the other apostles. Still kind of weird when you play Jesus. Maybe he wants to collect them all. He wants to be everyone in The Last Supper. But what if Robert Downey Jr. retired from doing Iron Man

and then showed up as Bucky in the next movie? That'd be weird. Right. Luke is the best of those four Jesus books. He's the best apostle? Of the four books of the Bible. So he's the best writer, at least. You're saying that out there.

No, if you're going to get it. From my Catholic school teaching. If you're going to play an apostle, that's the guy to play. No question. Who are your guys? Who are my apostles? Who are your apostles? God, I would say right off the top of the head, Robert Duvall, probably, right?

I like the wise guys. You mean the three wise men? Oh, yeah. He opposes abortion. Yeah, you know, he's a right-wing religious man okay well that's religious men are caviezel politics corner correct he's an intense man he's always crying or screaming yeah and he's he's leading these these fellas yep they very quickly get lined up with simon baker the mentalist himself yeah so the person of interest in the mentalists have united

here cbs just like dug into the ride with the Devil cast for a long time. Yeah, that's true. Didn't Jeffrey Wright have a CBS show as well, maybe? I don't think he did. This is missing a Krumholtz, and then you'd have almost the Tuesday Night Live. Yeah, Rob Murrow. No, Wright has never done a TV show until... Westworld?

Well, he did Boardwalk Empire, but until Westworld, yeah. I would watch Jeffrey Wright Investigates, though. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, it's just like... Well, he showed up for two scenes of Game Night, and I was hoping... God, he's so fucking good in Game Night. Man, I gotta see Game Night. Yeah.

He's so good in it, and his casting is a joke. Yeah. To be like, wouldn't it be funny if this was Jeffrey Wright in this kind of movie? And it makes you angry that you don't get to watch him for another hour. I it be funny if this was Jeffrey Wright in this kind of movie and it makes you angry that you don't get to watch him for another hour. I love Jeffrey Wright. Can we Jeffrey Wright stand

for a second? Fantastic actor. He's a wonderful actor. He's one of my guys. Sure. He's a fantastic actor. Which, he's so close to being

the kind of actor I hate except I love him. Well, his shaft, I mean, that's his next big role, right? Right.

He's doing shaft and that's just one of the all time like, I am overacting this entire thing. But he kills it anyways. He can be a little baroque. He makes that work. He is a paprika salesman. Yeah, he is a paprika.

He's rolling up his cart. But I think most of the time he gives you just the right amount. He's very theatrical. It's something like source code where you're like, you didn't need a cane and glasses. You literally gave yourself a limp. That's like the joke of when an actor needs business. He's the kind of guy who, when he's underplaying it, is overplaying it.

But in a way, I really like. Like in Casino Royale where he's playing a guy who doesn't talk much and he looks at the bottom of his whiskey glass. You're just waiting for him to do something. Exactly. I love him. I always just get excited when he's on screen. He's great in

Ali. He's great in The Manchurian Candidate. Great in Cadillac Records. Oh, he's fantastic in that. Yeah. He has Muddy Waters. I like him in almost everything. Obviously, he's very good in Angels in America. He's great. He was fun in the Hunger Games movies. Remember? He was like the weird tech guy. That's another example of

I think Jeffrey Wright would have won Best Supporting Actor that year if that had been a theatrical film angels in america yeah but it wouldn't be a theatrical film but i'm saying hypothetically because we keep on talking about how bad 2003 was oh sure fair enough let's go back to the 2003 well right he's amazing in angels right but this feels like this was kind of like an anointment moment where they were like jeffrey wright we're bringing you into the studio system. You're going to be a substantial movie actor now. And then this film doesn't really go. But this feels like it's designed to be a best supporting actor vehicle, right?

Sure, yeah, fair point. I mean, it seems like the kind of thing that had it done well at the box office should have been like an 8, 9. It would have been one of those films that gets a ton of nominations but maybe wins like a cinematographer award or something. It like a slam dunk nomination. An eight, nine. It would have been one of those films that gets a ton of nominations, but maybe wins like a cinematographer award or something. That's a good looking movie. Yeah.

Shot by Frederick Elms. So he grew up next door neighbor of Simon Baker. His father was murdered. No, wait, what do you think? Who grew up the next door neighbor? Jeffrey Wright. Jeffrey Wright's character. I thought he was his slave.

Simon Baker. That's how I always took it their next door neighbor? right because my understanding was that he bought him oh okay and then freed him but the idea is that Jeffrey Wright feels because I was bought out by him and they're friends

they have a bond and I think he gets the sense that at least in this neighborhood and everything, it's probably better to stick with Simon Baker and whatever he's up to than go off on his own. Right, but he kind of feels like he can't leave him, and so he's sort of out of obligation and solidarity fighting against his people. Fighting for the South. And not only that, he's also in league with a group that

regards him very oddly like they as you know they view him like what what's this why is he with us yeah and he just kind of that's one of the only other places there where we see another african american is at some point during like one of their like night parties or something you see jeffrey wright like serving whiskey and i think you see another extra who's an African American who's like clearly on like slave duty right no it's he's an odd presence in the movie but like intentionally so but it's always kind of odd when people bring him

up or they try to start trouble about him like Simon Baker always sort of defends him without ever totally humanizing him right you know he's sort of like he has a free pass I owe this man my life. Right. So you can't kill him,

but I'm not going to tell you you have to treat him like a human being. But he's constantly at risk. Like in the Lawrence Massacre, you know, some guy, drunken guy kind of grabs him and like is going to attack him and, you know,

has to be talked down because it's... Right. And Jeffrey Wright is great at mouth business. He's really good at mouth acting. So when you give Jeffrey Wright a beard, it's just like, it's like a fucking five course meal.

He's good with a beard. Yeah. He's great with a beard. It's a short beard, big beard, like whatever. I'll take it. Yeah.

He said this is his favorite movie he's ever done. Wow. And that he's like still to this day, very irritated that six people saw it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, six people saw it, Jeffrey.

But hey, it got a Criterion. He's like the one actor who does a 20-minute interview with him on the Criterion about this. Oh, I should tell this story. Criterion, 50% off sale. I order a bunch of stuff, including this film, because I knew we were

going to cover Ang Lee, and I order two, count them, two Agnes Varda box sets for Amelie's birthday, because I'm a fucking cool older brother. Stolen. The whole thing was stolen. My package was stolen. But did you, like, report this crime to the mail? The crime police?

I am in a building with four apartments. One apartment per floor. Sure. I am going out to do a show in Brooklyn during a snowstorm. A humble brag. Yeah, humble brag. I did a show for $5. Literally, I think I got paid $5.

I'm going to just level with you. I think that's too low. You think that's too low? You know, I study a lot of contract law. I can tell you about gross versus net. Because my agents went back and forth on that one for like months before I agreed to do this basement trail. They were like, how about this?

$4 if it snows, $5. Yeah. And you were like, sign. $5. As I was walking out, I saw the package there in the lobby. I was like, huh, I will leave that here right now in the vestibule of the building. And when I come back home, I will leave that here right now in the vestibule of the building

and when I come back home I will bring it upstairs to my apartment oh big mistake but the vestibule is locked okay yeah I get you

okay come back package gone text my best friends who live my neighbors on the first floor you know

two out of the four apartments you don't know all four right see I live in a fourplex I know all my neighbors. I mean, I know them enough that I could do a rapid tap tap on the door.

But I said, hey, did you take the package in? Because sometimes they'll take my packages in. I said, no, but we heard someone buzzing in earlier. I think he was trying to steal the mail. Wow. So some guy was like,

ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh, here's $175 worth of Criterion Blu-rays. What, was he going to sell them in the black market? I don't know! Did you report the crime to the mail police?

Who could I report it to? They successfully delivered it. The mail delivered it. The postal service delivered it to my home. I guess so. You know? Yeah, I don't know.

I feel like I've done that. I want to thank Jesse Ryan Knight. Sure. Friend, blankie, listener, who gave me his copy of Ride with the Devil on Blu-ray as a birthday present because he saw that I had my copy stolen. I bought a copy of Ride with the Devil

and it was delivered to my home safely. Well, you know, I mean, you can't have everything. Pretty early on in the film they realize they need to hibernate for the winter yeah

they have to pull a what do you what's that a revolutionary workplace that I visited uh Valley Forge which is like

where you're like why am I visiting this and they're like well this is where they stayed during the winter when they couldn't move they stayed in these huts and you're kind of like

oh so it wasn't like a battle here? And they're like, no, no, they simply had just, they had very little food. And you're like,

sounds rough. And they're like, yes, very bad. It's also so weird to be like, I understand like practical realities, but to be like, hey, how's the war going? Well, it's winter.

We're in kind of a break right now. Yeah, so we're just not going to do it. We're just sort of in a holding pattern. I don't know if you noticed, but it snows. Just good faith agreement.

This is where I'll give the film a lot of credit, and I'd have to go back and watch Gettysburg or Glory, but there's actually seasons in this movie

that matter. That's true. I don't know how long the filming took on this, but they must have had to take breaks because you can't

fake the seasons the way this film looks. Not the way this film looks, which is very natural and very location-based. Well, the filming must have been long because they started back in the Civil War, and that didn't come out until 1999.

That's true. Interesting bit. How do you feel, Griff? Terrible. I've been very upfront about this. They hunker down in a, I don't know, cave. They build it. Yeah, right.

A little fort cave yeah Skeeter Orc is like hey I know this lady who I think has a crush on me she used to live in a car she's released two albums sure yeah no no no it's not him it's it's Simon Baker right knows the ladies at the house

of them I always forget that guy's name Zach Grenier right yeah yes yes right who has is Garrett you must if you're making a film about the 19th century of, I always forget that guy's name. Zach Grenier, right? Yes. Who has, if you're making a film about the 19th century of America, you must cast Zach Grenier as something. Yeah, Zach Grenier also looks like Darkest Timeline, Tobey Maguire. Sure. They have the same sort of

wet-eyed kind of thing going on. So that scene is pretty harrowing when they come face to face. So they build a little wigwam. Like a little beaver dam that they hide out in. That's when we get to the skeleton

crew of Baker, McGuire, Wright, and Ulrich. The four greatest movie stars of the 1990s. Just guys being dudes. This is sort of like a Civil War entourage sort of section of the film right and Ulrich and Jewel

start boning down well I mean the whole thing is that Jewel just comes out of nowhere she does riding a horse riding this horse yeah

wonky teeth nice long hair right and it's like you know Jeffrey Wright he's the one who goes to Tobey Maguire

he's like you better get in there boy if you want to like get in on this that's like the first thing Wright says and he's like, you better get in there, boy, if you want to get in on this. Right, because McGuire's like, go outside for a smoke. And he's like, get inside the house. What are you talking about? Go inside that little hole there.

Everyone's talking to this lady. McGuire's very awkward with the girls, though. Jake Rodale. Well, but he's killed 17 men. Well, he's gonna. He hasn't gotten there yet. No, he's very... You start to realize his whole, like,

only idiots get married kind of feels like a kid punching a little girl in the schoolyard. Right. He just seems terrified by women. Yeah, very much so. A little dutchy. Then what happens until Ulrich gets shot? What goes on apart from the romance? We get the romance.

Right? That's a lot of that. Well, we got to really set up the romance, right? Because there's like the first time where, you know, Skeet Ulrich and Jewel, they're making out, having a good time. And Tobey Maguire and Jeffrey Wright are just sitting there inside. And Tobey Maguire, not a fan of the making out going on. No, no, not into it. It's like a friggin' dorm room in there. It really is.

And Tobey Maguire, yeah, he's like huffing and seeming. He's like, thought we were bushwhackers. This isn't war. So then we get the agreement to just kick him out of the dorm for the evening. It's like, she's coming over. Everyone, hold on. You guys throw acorns

at squirrels. That's like his line. Check the whiteboard. We're gonna go throw acorns at squirrels. But this is when Jeffrey Wright first starts to talk when they're sort of in the foxhole together. Simon Baker kind of explains their relationship

until McGuire starts acknowledging him for the first time. Yeah, because you're right. Jeffrey Wright's kind of just lurking at this point. Right. Have we seen him kill someone?

I thought we've gotten the sense that he's a good shoot though. That's part of the thing is that Jeffrey Wright is like a fantastic person to have on your side. Yes, he's a good warrior. I don't know.

I don't think there's really any battles. I can't remember. I'd have to rewatch because the early scenes are very chaotic. Well, we're going to get into a scene because after... It's when Skeet Ulrich finally gets his moment to shine with Jule. Give me one hour. Yeah. And then 15 minutes later.

It's like, you know, he gets a little... Well, he only needs 15 minutes as we learned's like, you know, he gets a little, well, he gets enough, well, he only needs 15 minutes as we learn. You guys know what I'm talking about. You're trying to put the moves on a lady and then a Civil War breaks out and it's like, what? Mm-hmm.

Okay, so Skeet is Skeeting. Yeah, he's got a funny name. Why is his name Skeet? Oh, do you know what his real name is? Brian Ray Trout yes it is no part of Skeet or Rick is real this is the name you should take as an actor

his little league coach called him Skeeter because he was small because he had poor health and frequent bouts of pneumonia did he have a dog named Porkchop? oh boy poor health, and frequent bouts of pneumonia. Did he have a dog named Porkchop? Oh, boy. He was an uncredited extra in Weekend at Bernie's.

Oh. So that's why he went by Skeet professionally. Like, I don't know. That's kind of a leap. Just because your Little League coach bullied you. Yeah, my Little League coach called me fuckhead, and I didn't go by that professionally. Your Little League coach called you get in right field and don't talk to me. Yeah, my Little League coach called me fuckhead and I didn't go by that professionally. Your Little League coach called you get in right field and don't talk to me.

Fuck Ulrich. Fuck Newman. That'd be good. Where did Ulrich come from? Oh yeah, I don't know. Good point. I didn't even think of his last name. No part of his name is real. Trout.

Well, Skeet Trout doesn't really... You can't have the TT. Could be a maiden name of some sort. Yeah. I'm not I'm not his stepfather

his stepfather's name David Donald sorry Donald Ulrich who is a stock car driver. Wow. I think Skeet Ulrich might have had

an interesting life. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like this all sounds this all sounds very romantic. If only he could bring a little bit of that

to the screen, you know? Yeah, what do you think of Skeet? He's kind of boring. I find him so boring. He dies an hour into the movie at the point.

Spoiler alert, and that's where we're at. He gets shot and he takes a while to die. Right. He actually dies because they chop his arm off. Well, the whole thing,

and this is where, like, Aang gets into, like, his whole thing about, like, this movie and, like, subverting the westerners right they go to write off

because I forget who's that fucking actor the Toby McGrath looking actor Zach Granier you're really struggling with Zach Granier's

yeah he's such a that guy who's a that guy nobody knows his name right he dies and they like charge and you know

you get like the whole drums pounding everything here's the big action scene it's gonna happen and then like charge and you know you get like the whole drums pounding everything here's the big action scene it's gonna happen and then like you know big camera sweep Dolly over helicopter shot and then it's like the battle's like a two minute like you know people just shooting in random

directions smoke everywhere and you know Skeet Ulrich gets shot and then we go back and it's like well that was the battle that was it that was shitty and then Skeet Ulrich isnourke isn't dead, so they're like, I guess we could cut his arm off in a cave. Well, Simon Baker just takes off. He's like, I'm done. Fuck this.

Those girls aren't gonna marry me, so I'm taking out. Alright, alright. Open the door. Let's get this over with. Crank. Oh my god. Oh my god, you see that? No. It's a small, naked man.

Okay. Sir, can you put clothes on? Big glasses and a bowler hat? Small, naked man, big glasses and a bowler hat. Oh my God, who's handing me his business card? Sir, we're in the middle of recording. Oh my God, this is so embarrassing. Uh-huh.

It's Cousin It. Okay, from the Addams Family. He's lost all his hair. Usually famed for his hair. It's Cousin It. Okay, from the Addams Family. He's lost all his hair. Usually famed for his hair. He's lost all his hair. He's buck naked now in our studio. Nothing but a bowler hat atop his head. He sounds like 66% of men who lose their hair by age 35.

Oh, I thought you meant butt naked. And by the time you start to notice it notice it's too late to reverse the trend well clearly even these thick glasses couldn't help him see the thing is it's cousin so he's not my cousin the thing is it yeah no thing is a different character all right uh it's easier to the hand it's easy to keep the hair you have than to replace what you lost okay so if you're seeing your hair recede a little bit or if in its case I guess maybe stepping out of the shower

and there's a little leftover in the drain. A little more than a lot. Maybe you want to go to 4hims.com and get some doctor recommended solutions to treat hair loss.

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Do you want to keep the butt hair? Okay, yeah, he does, yeah. You don't have to go to the awkward doctor visits. You don't have to pick up your products. They get shipped directly to your door. That's great, because he's clearly not much of a people person. Our listeners are going to get a trial month of HIMS

for just $5 today while supplies last. See the website for full details. It's 4hims.com. But it would cost hundreds if you went to a doctor or a pharmacy. Wait a second. So, Cousin It's asking me, he should just type in No. I know what he's going to ask.

4hims and just check that that was the end of the URL? No. You go to 4hims.com slash blank. That's F-O-R-H-I-M-S dot com slash blank. Nice to meet you. Can we get some disinfectant in here? Because he was wiping his butt all over these walls. You in the butts.

Me in the butts? Him in the butts. You in the butts. Me in the butts. It's not my fault. The cleaning crew to take care of it. Thank you. How'd you feel about that, Peter?

That was some great work. I do not spiel on my ads. I'm just like, it's movie. This is the Godard-Zigavertov group Marxist film from the 72. Check it out and use the code. Our hands are forced. Here's the thing. I would love to get ads out as quickly as possible.

And it feels like every time I'm shanghaied by some kind of fool, some creature, some real character comes in, holds us hostage. It's true. I'd love to get an ad done in 30 seconds. I can't tell you how much. So Skeet Ulrich's dead. Skeet Ulrich is dead.

We're going to take out the bullet first. Yeah, they take out the bullet. That doesn't work. Doesn't go so hot. Gangrene comes in. Yeah, you're right. I mean, he wants this to take its time

and be realistic, right? Like, again, he's subverting the romanticism of death. Right. So then we're going south. We gotta deliver Jewel to somewhere safe

and we get to, is it Tom Wilkinson? No. Yeah. It is, right? Tom Wilkinson and character actress Margot Martindale.

Yes, that's right. This movie is just like, like chock full. Because you even have like James Urbaniak as like the guy trading up scalps at the poker game. Yeah, that's a creepy scene actually. Yeah, Celia Weston pops up in this one.

Yeah, they play, you know, they have a nice home. I don't know. They play the nice home people. Yeah. Yeah. They're kind of chill.

They're just enjoying life. Do they have like a son who's died in the war or something? Or are they just barren? Well, Jewel's their kid, right? Well, Jewel's going to be their kid. Right. No, I can't remember what their backstory is supposed to be. And the whole time I'm thinking like,

has Tom Wilkinson been in the bedroom yet? But he hasn't. No, he hasn't. He's been in the full Monty. And he's been in Rush Hour. What year is that? 98. Okay, so that's right. I can't believe you don't remember when Rush Hour came out. Yeah, that's but it's just they go from Grenier

house to Wilkinson house, right? Their whole life is like, will someone take us in? Do they know she's pregnant at this point? Well, I mean, I don't're sort of like, their whole life is like, will someone take us in? Do they know she's pregnant at this point? Well, I mean, I don't know if they know, but she is. Right.

I mean, spoiler. She's pregnant. Spoiler. Skeet Ulrich. He skeeted. Yeah. I don't know. Thanks for doing it.

Yeah, I mean, you're welcome. I think I should take that out. Yeah, just take it right out. Actually, can you keep it in a doubler? All right, fine. I mean, that's what Skeet Ulrich did. He kept it in and he doubled it. Can you take that out. Yeah, just take it right out. Actually, can you keep it in a doublet? All right, fine. I mean, that's what Skeet Ulrich did.

He kept it in and he doubled it. Can you take that out? Ben, actually, can you keep that in a triplet? Yeah, what happens now? I'm trying to remember what happens before the, like, Quantrill shows up. Like, if there's anything major in between Skeet's death and the Lawrence massacre.

They go to Wilkinson's house. They go to Wilkinson's house. They go to Wilkinson's house. It's not the part where they need to sit there for the rest of the movie. But this is like a base for them. Yeah. They're hanging. I mean, that's what a lot of this movie is. They're just sitting in.

They're doing some chores. See, the thing, war takes so long. Takes long. Who has the time?, war takes so long. Takes long. Like, who has the time? Chores need to be done. Yeah. They're kind of a pain in the ass. Like, I wouldn't want them

in my, like, quite nice little, you know, country house. But I guess that's, like, the life of a bushwhacker is you're basically, like,

freeloading off of people. Right. Or staying in a cave. It really is, like, then they're gonna go meet up with Quantrill by that point who is like a quote unquote heroic figure in the Bushwhackers

who is uh who perpetrated the most deadly act of terrorism in American history apart from 9-11 to this day he's not an actor who I've never heard of he gets a huge speech he gets this huge speech John Ailes

he gets this huge moment all the big fancy close ups and he's the perfect look he's got the goatee or whatever the forked mustache and the sideburns I love this moment

because it's so old fashioned all the men masked together I love this moment because it's so old-fashioned. All the men masked together. It feels like you get it. You know what moment we forgot to talk about? What? The little mini Ruffalo arc. Oh, yeah.

Where they capture him. So, McGuire shows him mercy, lets him go. Ruffalo runs right back, kills McGuire's dad. And McGuire's like, why did he do that? My dad was on the same side as him. And they're like, doesn't matter.

You're now the bigger deal. Oh, sure. They killed your dad because he's your dad, not because of what he stands for. Right. Yeah. You,

because you joined up with the, you cast a die for everyone around you. Yeah. And very interesting enough, that's not like then, like a later plot where he's going to go get revenge on Ruffalo. Do you even see Ruffalo again? No. But I think it's kind of important.

Well, because I think Baker says you taught him a lesson. He forgot the lesson. Right. But it's kind of important because like Maguire's in so deep at that point. It's like it doesn't matter what I do my reputation now like outlives me and is stuck to everyone around me so he's gonna like

fucking go down swinging yeah I guess so I don't know why else you would I guess the idea of going to Lawrence was like that was seen as like the a stronghold for the Jayhawks and we were gonna get our revenge right well there's a there's the women's prison oh right and the women's prison had collapsed right which was seen as a stronghold for the Jayhawks and we were going to get our revenge, right? Well, there's the women's prison there.

Oh, right, and the women's prison had collapsed, right, which was seen as this atrocity. They had tossed a bunch of prisoners into a shoddy building and a lot of people had died. So I guess there was some sort of like, that's his big speech is like, we're answering this war crime. You know, there's a Spielberg-produced miniseries

called Into the West from 2005 that also features the Lawrence Massacre. Was Skeet Ulrich in that as well? Seems plausible. I kind of think he was in that for some reason. I remember that. No, I'm not seeing any Skeet. No.

No, yes, yes. Oh, yes. He plays Jethro Wheeler. wheeler thank you yeah you're right i went deep on skeet when i was watching this movie sure i mean this really is the end of skeet as a movie star jericho well right he does move over to tv he was on jericho uh which was a post-apocalyptic tv show and they canceled it and fans sent in spoons and no it was peanuts I think

someone else had spoons and then he was referenced in that little John song is that right? Ulrich Ulrich it's weird how they would always on the radio edit they would cut out the Ulrichs

yeah I know he goes skeet skeet skeet skeet Ulrich Ulrich come on let's talk about the Lawrence Massacre guys cut out the Ulrichs. Yeah, I know. He goes, skeet, skeet, skeet, skeet. Ulrich, Ulrich. Come on, let's talk about the Lawrence Massacre, guys. Okay. I like that part.

It's distressing. Is it your favorite massacre? So this is like the most clearly cinematic reference. Right. This is the scene at the end of The Searchers. Yes. Where John Wayne and they go to get that. And though Ford pulls a narrative toward Natalie Wood, essentially, and we sort of avoid, you know, get that. And though, you know, Ford pulls a narrative toward Natalie would essentially, and we sort of avoid what's going on in that.

But like, that's clearly like what Ang Lee is thinking about with like, I'm going to do that scene, but I'm going to show what actually happens in the camps. Right. That's another reference to something else, but that's not what I mean in the, in the town.

Yeah. No, just like, you know, walking into saloons. Yeah. Pull pulling out the men and shooting them. Here's my hot take.

It sucks. I fucking hate it. Good filmmaking. Not into it? Bad history. Sure. Don't like it. I think these guys

are jerks. Yeah. I think they act like a bunch of fucking assholes. I love the mundanity of it, though. Yeah, especially

after that big speech and that, like, you know. I think the master stroke is how much though especially after that big speech and that like you know I think the masterstroke is how much it keeps on cutting back to that kid having to observe everything and ending it with the kid then shooting someone himself who's the character that follows um

that fucking thing is so good there's the German guy with the whiskey he is so good and is it Caviezel who sticks with it? it's with Simon Baker. It's Baker. And he's... You want tobacco?

You want tobacco? Exactly. Baker is like dead in the eyes at this point. But he's sort of like... And then he finally shoots him right at the end there.

Yeah, that guy's good. That guy's really good. That guy's like Mickey Mouse in Saving Private Ryan where he's like so avuncular. He's just like,

this is how I'll save myself. Yeah, right. I try to find the name of the actor. No, but it's gross because it's the kind of scene you've seen in westerns where you've acquitted yourself to the townspeople and then this big bad group rolls in and causes havoc.

And in this movie, the people causing havoc are the people you've been with for the last fucking 90 minutes and it's just a bummer to watch and you know Toby isn't exactly heroic but he's apathetic at this point he gets a good

brunch he gets a good brunch yeah oh wait I recognize those actors too who are those people I maybe not we haven't talked about his sort of doppelganger in this movie that's like sort of his whole enemy Jonathan Rhys-Myers yeah the Jonathan Rhys-Myers character who's always hey uh the duchy yeah you do it like that that he's got I don't even know what kind of accent he's doing he's kind of doing a Dylan and this is an example of like you need to cast someone like Jonathan Rhys-Myers because you need to cast someone so visually distinctive? He's got such a face.

He stands out every time you cut to him in a group. He had just been in Velvet Goldmine. I don't love him as an actor, but I can't deny the power of his face. It's so unusual looking. He's effective. He's like a good piece of art design. Sure, right, exactly. He's well painted.

And he's kind of stripped down of a lot of his worst tendencies in this movie. I find him effective in the final scene. Yeah, the final scene's well-painted. And he's kind of stripped down of a lot of his worst tendencies in this movie. I find him affecting in the final scene. Yeah, the final scene is very good. Yeah. But who is it that, because they have the run of wanting the coffee, right? This brunch thing. Who is it who makes the brunch?

It's like nice old people. I just thought I recognized the actors, but maybe I can't. But it's Jonathan Reismaners wants to come in and pull him out and shoot him. He's like's like well we need to finish our brunch first yeah and he's so grumpy about it that um like he's not even he's not even like making a stand like it's not like he's you know but it also doesn't even seem it's hard to tell what his motivations are in that scene like because he's not being crafty,

but he is, if that makes sense, right? Like, it almost seems like he just wants to fuck with Jonathan Rhys-Meyers. Like, he doesn't even really care about this. But getting at the idea of this being this sort of, like, coming-of-age movie, it's like they're these high schoolers full of hormone where it's just, like...

Yes, no, this is a coming-of-age movie. It's status war. Because it really just feels like bullying. Like, this shit when they go into the town. It's a lot of like, well, I'll shoot you. You don't have Tobey Maguire looking at this scene and being like, wow, this is a horrible thing that I should not be doing. Exactly.

Like, he's just sort of, you know. Instead, he's sort of abstaining at this point. It's like the kid watching his friend get beaten up and not doing anything, you know? He also says vittles, which is a constitutional requirement for any Civil War movie. You must say the word vittles at some point. But they just go so beyond in terms of personal embarrassment. The level of what they try to do

in this town in terms of just... Also, halfway through, they're just like, this isn't very heroic. I thought we were going to fight people. Right. When does Simon Baker get shot? Well, then they have the battle

with the actual Union soldiers. Also, we should mention their scheme is that they ride in in the blue coats. They pull them off right before the fight. They're marching up. It's the one time they're actually in an organized formation of any type. Then they pull them off and run right in.

We should also mention that we watched this movie a week ago because we thought we were going to record and then there was a snowstorm. So we're a little foggier on it. But this is like the most traditionally big battle in the film. Yeah, sure. It's barely a battle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's just kind of like just death just muddy death so Simon Baker we've got this battle and like all the other battles I mean you know

I mean and this is something I'm sure you guys will talk through like the entire series but like Ang Lee is like a very like smart filmmaker like the camera's always in the nice place

but he's not he's not like the David Fincher or Kubrick type where it's like these very, very exacting shots or whatever. No, exactly. Not at all. I would never think of him that way. He's not meticulous.

He's not showy. And it's one of the reasons why he's such a good close-up filmmaker because he's really into the power of getting... He loves physical detail and facial expressions. The right facial expression in order to progress the story. And he likes the atmospheres that he works in. I mean, this is a film that's full of atmosphere, so it's wrote back.

So it's, you know, all the sets of Hulk, for that matter. But that's what everyone talks about on his sets, whether he's filming more on location or what have you, he spends a lot of time in the downtime while such as being set up,

just sort of walking around absorbing all of it and really trying to get a sense of place, which this movie certainly has. Yeah, but it still balls you to make your big Western and your big Civil War movie centered around just like an unambiguous act of terrorism, which is all that was. And also not have it end with them going like,

oh, maybe we were wrong. Exactly. Not only not end with that, not really end with like some punishment for the character. But it does end on actually, I think, a very, very different note. Go ahead. Well, do we want to get, let's get there.

Okay, fair enough, fair enough. You mean later, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. But it's not like it ends with like, I mean, for example, like you could have kept skeet until now and then he dies tragically here right and toby's like oh like i think this is terrible we should never have you know like oh the cost the human cost there's neither redemption nor punishment no and like and his quote-unquote heroic act is sparing the nice egg makers from a psycho who wants to shoot them.

It feels so unheroic. Hold on, he's not a psycho. I mean, I relate to this guy. He hates eggs. Jonathan Rice Myers? Yeah, he hates eggs and he wants to murder anyone who likes eggs. I mean, I relate to this. I think he's the most sympathetic character in the film.

People who like eggs are monsters. Eggs are for lunatics. Are you almost done? All egg fans should be You know what you need to do is when you're scrambling eggs if you drop a little bit of lemon in the scramble before you fry it that's where you get the acid. Because you need to have a little of your acid with your salt and fat.

Peter, how dare you imply that I would ever scramble an egg? Okay. Anyways, drop that lemon. The disgrace! Okay, so Simon Baker dies. Yeah.

Yeah. And Jonathan Rice Myers tries to shoot Jeffrey Wright? Yes. Yes. Another guy tries to attack him too. Yeah, Simon Baker dies. And Toby gets shot too. Toby gets shot.

They both get shot. Yeah. In the leg. Yep. I think. As they're fleeing, essentially. Right?

Yeah. And then they go back to Tom Wilkinson and Margo Martindale. It's true. And Tom Wilkinson's like, Oh, hi. You guys again. FYI, Jewel's pregnant. No, she's got Martindale. It's true. And Tom Wilkinson's like, oh, hi. You guys again. FYI, Jewel's pregnant.

No, she's got her baby already. Right, exactly. Jewel gave birth. Right. And she's twice, because Jewel's already a widow when we meet her. Right. So she's already a woman of the world.

That's sort of an underrated aspect of her character. Right. Is that Tobey Maguire is such a boy about certain things. Well, he's killed 17 men. I think it's 15, but he's killed many men. Whereas she's sort of been around the block a couple times. Yes. Probably my favorite scene in the film is

Tobey and Jeffrey in bed together. They start sleeping. This is where the film kind of goes from great to amazing for me. I'm all about the last 45 minutes of this movie. And I got to just put out there that I have my struggles with the first hour and 30. The first act of the movie, especially the snow, the winter hunkering down, is challenging.

And the skeet-heavy stuff. It has a lot of skeet. Who's okay right there's a real chill factor at work here until we get to the Skeet shooting I'm gonna get just a lot

of chill factor until the Skeet shooting do you see what I did there no Skeet get shot yeah Skeet shooting is also a thing I got you

yeah Skeet Skeet Ulrich Ulrich Peter save us say something smart so Jules pregnant and Tobey Maguire has to sit there

and hold the baby yes he does anduire has to sit there and hold the baby yes he does and he's gotta sit there and be like I'm holding a baby it's true and he goes from like holding a baby

that's not man's work to like I'm kinda into holding this baby I'm good at it the whole thing though is like when he gets there it's like

Jules had this kid why aren't you marrying this yeah cause it's like the bible says your brother dies you gotta take up his duty. And he thinks that

Toby's the father, that's the thing. And he's like, excuse me boys rule, girls rule. Excuse me, I'm the uncle. And I think there's like Wilkinson, there's a cousin that comes and is like, doesn't matter, you're the father, I don't care who it is, but

you are the father now. Now I got my cootie shot. He hates girls. Like, doesn't matter. You're the father. I don't care who it is, but you are the father now. Well, excuse me, circle, circle, dot, dot, dot. Now I got my cootie shot. He hates girls. He does hate girls. Yeah. He likes war. Yes.

And having long hair. Right. And shooting people. Yeah. He thinks he likes that stuff at least. And now he starts to become genuine buddies with Jeffrey Wright. Yeah, with Holt. With Holt.

Daniel Holt. He starts talking about, they have this one night... God, Ang Lee's really good at scenes where people talk to each other without looking at each other. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He's really good at shooting those. We should also say the dialogue in this movie, this movie is written by James Seamus. Yes, James Seamus.

It's very flowery and very accurate to the time. It's not trying to do the thing a lot of period dramas do where they're like, well, let's just have them talk a little more naturally and it can be you know it's sort of like appropriating how they work Seamus really likes adaptation like he just finds it an interesting like

thing like so my relationship with James is he teaches at Columbia University where I did both an undergrad and an MA at one point he He only teaches, he does not teach production. He does not teach producing.

He teaches film theory. This is his like mandate. I will only teach the most useless stuff of film academia. This is like his sort of thing. Yeah, I'm not going to give you any practical tips here.

Even though I was the head of a studio practically. So he teaches his graduate course. It was like, when I took it, it was like his last year before he was fired from Focus, when Anna Karina was bombing and all of these films were bombing.

It was their first red year, actually. That was his only red year in Focus's history, was that year. Jeez, did they fire him for that? Yeah. It's like fucking firing Popovich if he, anyway, carry on. Exactly.

But also Focus was like, what if we suck now? That was their whole business sort of reorganization strategy. So he teaches a class for mostly MFA students and a couple of master's students called Scene Narrative. And he doesn't really tell you what the class is about, but you're going to do a very, very intense discussion. You're going to start with Shakespeare sonnets.

Then you're going to read a lot of Plato. Then you're going to read a lot of 16th century Renaissance art theory. So Lessing and Alberti. Then we did three weeks of Kant, critique of judgment, which is whole idea of aesthetic. Then we read a couple, not,

we did some poetry. We did some John Ashbery recently passed away. Great poet. We read a novel called Tanizaki's the key, which is one of the great unfilmable novels. You can read this in a couple hours. I highly recommend it. It's a Japanese novel about

it's an epistolar, it's two diaries that you're reading back and forth between a husband and wife, and at various points you learn that they're reading each other's diaries. So then you have to rethink the entire way that you're looking. So it's a great novel. And so at the end of the-

Does Scooby-Doo get its own semester or is that- I'm just running through the tenets of sort of narrative here. Yeah. So then at the end, it's like the ideas, I think he really is kind of interested in the idea of like what narrative is and how then you visualize it. And I don't know if I quote unquote, like learned anything in the class.

I ended up writing a final paper about Kant and Stan Brakhage because it just seemed right for the class, and he's like, that's fine with me. He is one of these guys, these rare examples of someone who seems to have pulled off a human hat trick in the film industry

where he has a lot of real intellect and creative integrity, really sharp business acumen, where he has a lot of real intellect and creative integrity, really sharp business acumen, and he is a human being and not a monster. Yeah. He has a PhD from Berkeley. He's got a book on Carl Theodore Dreyer. He's got this entire chapter if you've seen the movie Gertrude.

There's a fake renaissance painting in Gertrude. This is like Dreyer's last film from the 60s. One of the hardcore art cinema movies of all time. And it's this fake renaissance painting of Venus being ripped together in dogs. He's got an entire chapter just deconstructing that painting. James Seamus

fucking rules. He's so awesome. I have never seen Gertrude. Now I want to see Gertrude. That's a get ready for a movie. I feel that way about a lot of Dreyer that I have seen. Yeah. But yeah, no, Seamus is smart.

I mean, when I had him on my podcast, you can check it out, The Cinephiliacs. How's that? But there's a great interview I have with James Seamus. And I asked him about making sort of middle-brow movies, right? Focus Features is a middle-brow studio. Sure, it's the classic along with Sony Pictures Classics. And, you know, kind of been talking about, like, because this is a guy

that, you know, he knows his barks, he knows his, like, all these sort of things buying into, like, whatever late capitalism is in our days. And he's like, you know, Brokeback Mountain started a conversation. Like, you can't deny that. Like, you know, we made change

however small or slim you want to say. Like, you know, we made change however small or slim you want to say, like, you know, we also fit into a market. We knew what we were doing. I was the one who did talk to me. The, is it Cassie Lemons?

Which is a great movie. Like you actually look at the focus record. Pretty good with women and people of color. Absolutely. And even like movies like the motorcycle diaries or whatever that are like, you know, being presented as these sort of old people movies. Like these are movies about, you know, interesting outside of the realm of centuries and things.

So that's kind of what makes like Ride with the Devil interesting as his flop is he's pretty good at knowing what his audiences are. And this one didn't go. No, this one didn't go. But I appreciate the effort. I think it's beautifully adapted. So let's talk about the end of Ride with the Devil, guys. So Tom Wilkinson is being very mysterious. He's got to go into town, and Jeffrey Wright is going to come with him.

I really enjoyed this part of the movie. And Dale is making a chicken. She's making a fucking chicken. And Tobey Maguire is suspicious. They don't make, you don't do a roast chicken. He has a whole conversation with her about the chicken. We did go over my favorite scene. We skipped over, which is Jeffrey Wright and To conversation with her about the chicken. I'm sorry, we did go over my favorite scene. We skipped over, which is

Jeffrey Wright and Tom McGuire in the bed. Yeah, he talked about it. Jeffrey Wright talks about the fact that he now feels free for the first time. Right, yes. It's a gorgeous piece of acting from Jeffrey Wright. You've always been free, and he's like, that wasn't freedom. Right. You know, he talks about oh, he says, you know, he's talking about Simon Baker's death, and he goes

I know what you're feeling, you're feeling the loss. Right. And he goes, it's not a loss. It's a freedom. This is the first time I've actually felt free. Even though he's clearly moved by the death of Simon Bay. He's very affected by it. And he was close to him, but it was also this kind of abusive relationship in a lot of ways.

And for the first time, Jeffrey Wright is feeling empowered that he can pursue his own life. So he expresses his intent to Tobey Maguire to leave. He has to go out on his own and make his way. Yes, that's true. So they're both going to depart together

and then what happens? But Wright's in on this. Wright's in on the chicken scheme. Everyone's in the scheme except for Tobey Maguire. Because we've had a scene where Tobey anduire yeah Tobey Maguire is a real dumbass because we've had a scene where Tobey and Jewel

talk about maybe getting married he's like oh hell no that's a great scene I am out of this I am like and she talks about his nub or he talks about his nub

who gives the first nub jab I mean everyone's talking about nubs yeah but yeah where he's just like huh if I thought about it I would never want to marry you ever

never girls are gross yeah I like killing people. I hear you eat boogers. Go away. He's great in these. I love childish Tobey Maguire. Tobey Maguire is great at hating women.

Is there a New York Times article coming soon? I don't know about that. I don't know. It's a pretty journalistic press. But yes, the chicken's being roasted. As we discussed off mic, it's a good looking chicken. Great chicken.

I mean, at the end of the dinner, just a good close up on the chicken. It's a nice looking chicken. It's like his Ozu pillow shot is the shot of the chicken. Good chicken. That was a chicken that fire roasted, you know? Yes. Use a cast iron when you cook chicken. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Maybe put a brick on it, right? No, no, no, no, no. Some people like to do that. Just put it in the oven. On the side? Cast iron. Because you're going to get crispy from the top,

but also the cast iron is going to get the bottom. It'll warm up. Don't need to flip it. Just put it, and then you can make a really good sauce with all the drippings that come out. What about like a DVD copy of brick with that on top of the chicken?

It is very heavy. You're going to get a rubbery, plasticky taste to it. A little bit of meltage might occur. Tom's gone to get the priest because it's time for Toby to marry Jewel. Priest is very excited about the chicken. First thing he says, enters the house

says, I smell that chicken. I mean, I think it's a rough time right now in Missouri. You might not eat a lot of chicken. I also just like that it feels like it's like

the end of the five-year engagement or something. Yeah, right. Yeah, silly kids are getting married if it's the last thing I do. Yeah, and Jeffrey writes in on it.

It's very cute. Toby has his talk with Jewel and is like, I guess we can do this. Yeah, he's like, I thought you didn't like the nub though and she's like yeah

it's kind of cute I didn't get into the nub yeah he's like well alright you can maybe not do regular things with a nub but you can do other things I'm DTM

down a nub down a nub um what else so they get married and then they get married then we get the

Jeffrey Wright has to tell Toby what's going on yeah you gotta sleep in a bed with a wife yeah he tries to take off his socks to get in bed with Jeffrey Wright has to tell Toby what's going on. Yeah, you got to sleep in a bed with a wife. Yeah. He tries to take off his socks to get in bed with Jeffrey Wright. He's like,

this is home base. I'm used to this. This is comfortable. Yeah, right. Jeffrey Wright's like, you fucking fool. Go over there. And Jewel's like,

yeah, you are a fucking fool. He is. Sex, ever heard of it? Right, because she's like, are you a virgin? And he's like, I've killed many men. And she's like,

that's kind of the opposite of what I'm talking about. Not going for that. She's got to take off all his draws and everything. She seems to like the peen. Sure. There's a moment where she glances down, takes a little peek at the peen. Yeah, she's satisfied. We totally forgot one of the most crucial things that happens at this house in these scenes leading up

is Tobey Maguire staring at Jules' nipple. Yeah, the breastfeeding. That is the breastfeeding thing. I know, yeah. He is really into watching the breastfeeding. It's like he's literally, same with holding the baby where he's like, geez, I guess I never thought about it before. I guess they need to drink milk and be held.

Right, yeah. Babies are nice. Boobs is cool. What is going on here? I thought that all I wanted to do was shoot people yeah um

then he cuts his hair it's a coming of age story but the age he's coming of is like 10 but that's the thing once you cut his hair he's practically like a fucking 50 year old dad

you know what I mean that's a great line where they go like you almost look like you're 21 again now and he's like I'm still 19 and they're like oh fuck Jesus Civil War really puts some years on a person you almost look like you're 21 again now. And he's like, I'm still 19.

And they're like, oh, fuck. Civil War really put some years on a person. City miles. Yeah. So then we get to this really, I mean, so they're going to take off and they got to sneak through town. They're going on their wagon trail. Because they still wanted funerals.

Go west. They still wanted funerals. They're taking an Uber trail. They're going to drop Jeffrey right off early yeah right going to California but yeah the last crucial scene is the showdown

quote unquote showdown well you know it's kind of like the film that it reminds me of that comes later is a film that I'll really stand for

and I feel most people don't is The Truth About Charlie Jonathan Demme's remake sure remake of Charade with Tim Robbins that's a hot take and you get to this you get this really amazing ending

so it's like Mark Wahlberg and Fanny Newton and Tim Robbins and everyone's holding guns in the rain and everything and then they put the guns down and that's like the end of the movie is they put the guns down. They just walk away from it? Yeah. They decide to not kill each other

and that's kind of at the end of this movie. You get this moment. You think it's going to be like a final shootout. And like Aang's, you know, setting it all up. Like little detail shot here. Click of the gun. And the character, the Jonathan Rhys-Myers character has only been a psycho. So it's not like we think like, oh, he'll have chilled out.

Well, you almost go like, oh, that's why the character's been in the movie up until this point. Like he's had a weird amount of close-ups for how unimportant he's been. Sure, right. It's clearly all set up for this moment. And his whole plan is he's still going to go into town where it's like, they tell him, like, they're going to arrest you immediately. And he's like, I want to, I think he says he wants a beer or something or like, you know. Right, that's what makes him scary. You're like, this guy's crazy.

He's got nothing to lose. He's crazy. But this is the moment. Kill him for sport. And this is the moment that then you realize that what are we doing here? What has all of this, none of this has mean anything. There's no reason we

can't just both go on our way. War is done. The war's over. We can live again. And let's just live. And that's kind of like a really powerful thing for this Civil War movie to end on. And let's just live. Yeah. And that's kind of like a really powerful thing for like this Civil War movie to like end on.

And that's where I think like, you know, the film's weird amorality kind of plays into this. So it's like, it is just like, it doesn't matter. And this is where I think,

I think this is where you get the Seamus check. I think like Seamus is a big fan of like the Bud Bedeker and the Anthony Mann Westerns of the 50s, the sort of psychological western of crazy going on.

The Tall T? Yeah, Tall T was a film that we discussed in my podcast with him. But he's really into these films that have this sort of sense that there's a strong moral, but it's just not this sort of preached moral. It just kind of comes out awkwardly into scenes and moments, and

that's where this film kind of ends. But then pretty pointedly, the movie ends on Jeffrey Wright. Now that they've made it through, it's this sort of goodbye where the two guys... God, Jeffrey Wright has a moment that he plays. It's a thing that when actors are able to pull it off, it almost

instantaneously destroys me. Whereas he's saying goodbye to Tobey Maguire, he starts to break emotionally. And then he shows that he's surprised that he's breaking emotionally. And it all happens in a millisecond. But they pull a classic

call me by your name. They call each other by their names? No, they call each other by each other's names. I'm going to call you by your name. Right. And it ends with toby watching him ride off but the final final shot is him riding off this guy now finally gets to he's going to texas a life trying to find his mother yes um he i mean if i was him i'd go north but you know i understand it's very poetic and moving but also to jesus yeah um iraqi but i mean and it's important right'd go north but I understand it's very poetic and moving but also Jesus

but I mean and it's important right I mean I just feel like it's as much as you want maybe some sort of moral reckoning at the end of this movie it's like he's saying like yeah there might have been a triumph of the south but mostly these people just stayed in the country right

and a lot of them did move west maybe or move around but like uh we did just kind of pick the country up and drop it like and that's i feel it's it's very like it's it's it's a good signaling of the next 40 years in this country's history like everything that we're talking about both the jeffrey reid arc and the jonathan reese myers yeah so you know and usually we talk about the western as a genre as basically a post-civil war genre

yes post-civil war right when everything sort of shakes out and that's sort of like you know that final shot it's like it is like the big

western landscape shot and like you get the sense that this whole film has just been setting up these narrative dialects that are gonna then play out through the genre well then

played out through the genre for the last hundred years of cinema, but you know, and, and novels and television and what have you. Yeah. Um,

I've always wanted to see, there's this really interesting television series that's being made in the South called the ghost riders or something. Uh, that's like a post civil war about a bunch of Confederate soldiers who then go around the South, like trying to right wrongs. It's a Western.

It was super popular in the South in the 60s right around the same time as Brown v. the Board. Interesting. Didn't play so well in the North. I can't imagine it did, yeah. Now, none of us have seen a theatrical version of this film. No, I haven't. I think the first time I did I saw it. I don't remember.

So it's not fundamentally different. I could not tell you. I don't remember. It's not fundamentally different. I could not tell you one difference between the two. It's maybe just a little expanded. The director's cut added 10 minutes. But yes, I don't know if there's any major change. It doesn't sound like it's a structural change. Probably at the beginning, I would imagine. I would imagine he beefed up the beginning a little more.

This movie got mixed reviews. And it made no money it made no money I do like Wesley Morris said that it was downright hot blooded in the nameless violence going on never has this war been filmed with such ragged

glory the boys grasping at their rifles look like trigger happy rock stars so much they threaten to transform the film into a great hair movie just wanted to get to that oh yeah this movie made 635 000 which is insane um on a 38 million dollar budget i'm of two minds on this movie yeah it's a colossal flop yeah yeah i'm of two minds on this movie because i think the jeffrey wright of it is the most interesting part of the movie oh yeah yeah. I just think this movie is straight up amazing. See, I can't

I wish I was 100% in on it. And I don't feel like an active sort of resistance to it. But it's like, I love the structural game of apparently Ang Lee pitched it to Jeffrey Wright as this is a movie about an emerging

character. Both in terms of the narrative, the character emerges, and this character emerging into his own. Could be a prequel to like a Django Unchained sort of thing. It feels like, right. It's so much more melancholy. But in terms of like someone who's going to go south and, you know, quote unquote. Sure. Right. I mean, what you're saying about it is like this is a film in which

part of what makes it interesting and unique is more about what it isn't doing than what it is does and it's always sort of a harder film to then like truly grasp in a way and it's pointedly not focusing on the most interesting character in the film for the majority of the film

to make a point which is like both effective and frustrating. But it's also a movie about how the war changed this country for the worse in a lot of ways. And for the better, obviously, in a lot of ways. And how it left a lot of people

with no future. And I don't think it could have been an HBO miniseries kind of thing. Because you wouldn't have a film in which, or a TV series, like where the Jeffrey Wright character ends and now he's the most important character going on to season two or whatever. It has to be this weird film two and a half hour thing. I think it ends in just the right place.

I buy more into the film the further it goes on. And perhaps it's a movie the more I sit with it or if I ever see it again, will play differently for me. But I liked it. So, it is number 56 in Box Office Mojo's Pop Star Debuts category.

Can you guess number one? The Bodyguard? Austin Powers and Goldmember. Oh, that makes sense. The Bodyguard is number three. Dunkirk is number two. Harry Styles? I still have no idea who he is in thatmember. Oh, that makes sense. I don't think, yeah, the bodyguard's number three. Dunkirk is number two. Harry Styles. I still have no idea who he is in that movie.

He's in it. I don't know what Harry Styles looks like and they all look the exact same, so. Yeah.

He's got good hair. He's got Harry Styles. This movie opened number 50 on November 26, 1999. A weekend in which? To $64,000 on 11 screens. So not great. I know it's number one at the box office. Yeah, go ahead. Toy Story 2. A weekend that shall forever live in infamy. Yeah. It's in its second weekend. It has made

$80 million, which is very impressive. Yeah. So good for Toy Story 2. Great for Toy Story 2. Sure. Your favorite movie. At the time, that was kind of one of the biggest opening weekends ever.

I mean, it was a five day. Sure, right. But it blew the doors off. Hollywood. Number two, we're playing the box office game, Peter. Number two is a Bond movie. I don't know. The world is not enough there you go yeah yeah is that the one where uh christmas in turkey

that's never had christmas in turkey yes i thought christmas came early this year christmas jones is that her name yes dr christmas jones she's a nuclear scientist came early uh out of here rest of that movie that's also the the one where Em watches Bon Fuck Christmas on a heat cam. Where she's like, you know, Q is like, this is a heat camera.

We can look at the heat signatures. And then there's like, what's that reading over there? And then you see them boning down. I was just remembering with a few people the other week that there was the Madonna video for Die Another Day,

which features her being tortured in a North Korean prison. That was an object of media that historians will be looking at for a hundred years from now. There's also a scene in the movie in which she fences Bond because contractually she wouldn't do the song

unless she was allowed to fight Bond in the movie. Yeah, she's got some puns, I think, as well. The world is not enough. It's better than Die Another Day. It's got Robert Carlyle in it. He's the villain. He's got like a bullet in his head. Is it the fight at the Russian sub?

Yeah, Russian sub. It's like the first half is the Sophie Marceau stuff. She's kind of the real villain. I've never seen that one. Oh, it's weird. It's not very good but it has this like edge of darkness to it where Brosnan shoots Sophie Marceau in cold blood. Okay.

And you're kind of like, whoa. Who directed it? Michael Afton, I think? No, I think he did Tomorrow Never Dies. No, it's Michael Afton. Roger Spottis would do whatever did Tomorrow Never Dies. Roger Spottis would? Yeah.

Okay. All right, number three is... Toy Story 2. No. Number three is a hell movie. The first movie to be number one and number three at the box office from hell not from hell

it's a hell movie yeah it's like an apocalyptic hell demon movie oh oh oh end of days end of days thank you

Arnold Schwarzenegger and Gabriel Byrne yeah it's a Peter Himes movie the director of Running Scared Running Scared which we covered

on this podcast father of Joe Himes yeah I wonder if he shot it like he likes to shoot his movies I think so let's find out Director of Running Scared. Running Scared. Which we covered on this podcast. Father of Joe Himes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I wonder if he shot it like he likes to shoot his movies. I think so. Let's find out. I'm not going to rest until I know that information.

Come on, Wi-Fi. You can do it. Yes, he did. He shot it. Number four at the box office. Yeah, okay, fine. It's Toy Story 2. No, it's a movie. Hmm.

How do you describe this movie? It's based on a famous American short story. Like a toy story? No. Is it the second toy story? No. Be quiet. Be quiet?

It was a big hit. It's like a gothic horror movie period piece. Sleepy Hollow? Yeah. In its second weekend, $18 million. Like, big hit. Big hit. Yeah.

Tim Burton Burton 100 million R rated picture yeah Johnny Depp that was Johnny Depp's first 100 million dollar movie which is weird to think about the emergence of him he had not had a

full stop blockbuster up until that point and then number 5 is a movie I think we just discussed it might have been on a future episode because I can't remember

how the chronology lines up it's the first film in a long series of animated films. 1999. We were discussing this the other day. On mic? Yeah, I think so. So we were discussing

one of the later entries? Yeah, number three, I think. How many are there in total? It's like so many, but only three got American releases. Oh, it is Pokemon, the first movie. Yes. Can you tell me how much that made in America? 86? 85. releases. Oh, it is Pokemon, the first movie. Mew versus Mewtwo. Can you tell me how much that made in America? Eighty-six? Eighty-five.

That was my birthday movie that year. All my buddies went to go watch Pokemon, the first movie in theaters for my birthday. Did you have a good time? I think so. I saw it. Our better one was when we pulled out the VHS of Swordfish, though. The next year. For various reasons.

Two reasons in particular. I year for various reasons. Yep. Two reasons in particular. I got those two reasons for you. Hugh and Jackman. Two reasons why. Other movies

he got the Bone Collector which apparently there was some bone collecting going on with you guys. Okay, stop it! You got Dogma Kevin Smith's anarchic

biblical action movie. Could 11-year-old Griffin tell you how smart that movie was? stop it you got Dogma Kevin Smith's anarchic biblical action movie which boy could 11 year old Griffin tell you how smart that movie was could 11 year old Griffin be more wrong

boy could 29 year old Griffin beat the shit out of 11 year old Griffin probably even sick Griffin yeah 100% we've got The Insider

we've got Being John Malkovich we've got The Sixth Sense American Beauty the big movies of 99 and all the way down at number 50. Right above Extreme in IMAX, which is in its 35th week. And right below the wonderful American movie, the documentary.

What is doing the Oscars this year? Like, it's American Beauty. American Beauty, Sixth Sense, Green Mile. What else is in there? 99 Insider. Being John Malkovichits Cassani for director. Yeah, what's... The Cider House Rules.

Like, it's, like, kind of a great year for American movies, but almost none of them actually play at the Oscars. But I'm wondering, like, what is... I mean, you look at this and you say, like, I get why people who watch the film were not maybe the most excited about it, but you don't know why did the audiences just like not show. I think it's some mix of like the reviews weren't strong enough.

And this was like the subject matter is so naughty and confusing. It's about like these like ostensibly villainous people. And it's not a movie that really varnishes that. So it's sort of like it is kind of about these villainous people. But this was also the two year run of like USA films.

Yeah, it was a USA film which of course will turn into Focus Features. Right, and they had some success but they were better at edgy than they were

at prestige. Right, because they had traffic the next year. Being John Malkovich did well for them. Gosford Park is kind of the outlier but it was Altman.

The question is who's this being sold to? Who's your audience here? I don't think they knew how to sell it. Because you've got this young, cute cast, but I don't think the teens are going to come out for a Civil War movie. No, and Jewel was a big star,

but she also wasn't someone who had a rabid fan base. She didn't have believers. She didn't have jewelers. I don't know. Maybe she did. Maybe she did. Jewelies? Jewelies. Anyway, it didn't work out for it. They platform maybe she did maybe she did jewelies jewelies

anyway didn't work out for it they platform it maybe they called them Jews yeah they called them Jews they platform it yeah as you said it's biggest release

was 60 Scream yeah I mean that's it's an insane gross yeah and what's crazy is you go like man imagine someone

like Ang Lee having a film at that budget level that makes less than a million dollars and then he does it again later in this miniseries you know what they should have done because of Jewel Man, imagine someone like Ang Lee having a film at that budget level that makes less than a million dollars, and then he does it again later in this miniseries. You know what they should have done because of Jewel being in the movie?

What? They should have had it at a bunch of drive-thrus. Sure. Car. Yeah, the car. Lived in one. What they should have done, actually, Ben. It's amazing that we've already talked about Jewel on this podcast. Ben, rather than show the movie.

We have a Jewel bit. Rather than show the movie a drive-thru, they should have taken a screen from car to car. The cars should have stayed parked. Right. And they moved the screen over to where those... Do you have anything you want to add, Peter? Cars were parked.

About ride with a devil? Because we're all done. No, I mean, I think I've gotten all my points. You know, I guess by the time this film's getting released, they've already shot Crouching Tiger. Yes, yes, because shot Crouching Tiger. Yes, yes. Because that was a long shoot.

So they might know that like, okay, at least when this doesn't work. Well, I mean, Crouching Tiger is still like that. How the hell does that film make a hundred million? Exactly. I don't think they're thinking like,

luckily we have our bankable Chow Yun fat period martial arts movie coming. No, I think his thought is maybe, well, if I get like ran out of the West, I can go back to making films in the East. I think that's maybe his line of thinking. I don't think he thinks that crashing tiger is going to rehabilitate his

standing in the American. I mean, his, his arc from here, like crouching tiger Hulk is down from that, you know, broke back is a hit and then lost caution. Like,

it's like the weirdest chart. I'll repeat this. James Seamus tells us, if you listen to the outtake at the end of the Cinefilex, let him, you know, so they pitch,

so, James Seamus is where, you know, they've pitched the Hulk to Universal and they're totally like the idea of 50s monster movie, right?

That we're going to just go back and do like Invisible Man essentially all over with all this Freudian stuff and they're totally into it. And James Seamus goes to go see his buddy Toby in Spider-Man opening weekend. Opening weekend.

Goes to the theater. Gets out. Calls Aang and says, we're totally fucked. We are fucked royally with what we're doing with this movie. But we can't stop. It's a genre now. And they have expectations of what it's going to be. You can't do like a weird metaphorical take on a superhero movie. You just need to do a superhero movie in may 2002 and with

spider-man on a flagpole next to the american flag right as chad kroger's hero started playing and america was like he was like hun and hulk's gonna be basically perceived as the follow-up to this like yeah great right yeah and it's a movie about how fathers ruin their children. Good movie. We're going to talk about it. American masterpiece. Peter, thank you so much for being on the show. Oh, it's absolutely a pleasure.

Thank you guys so much for inviting me. Cinephiliacs, people should check it out. And look for my book on the history of entertainment law in about five to seven years. Fantastic. I'm on the work on it. It's going to be great. You're going to rethink the new Hollywood. It's kind of about the birth

of blank checks. Hey, it could also help me figure out how to negotiate my contracts better because I have to be making more than $5 a basement show. Always get the gross, never the net. Yeah. That's the deal. Well, folks, thank you all for listening.

Next week is Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, right? With David Ehrlich. David Ehrlich. David, hello from me. We'll travel back in time and tell him. Your future. Future past, days of future past. He's also coming back for days of future past.

We're doing a Bryan Singer miniseries. It feels like the right time. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. I should mention we're doing Tobac before Singer. Absolutely. Thanks to Ant Fragudo.

It'll be our most Tobac-ing miniseries. Our most Tobac-ing miniseries. Ant Fragudo for our social media, Lane Montgomery and Joe Bowen. And as always, or are we, yeah. Let's get to go to red.com

for some real nerdy shit. And as always skeet skeet skeet all right all right