Blank Check with Griffin & David - Se7en with Mike Mitchell & Nick Wiger

Episode Date: September 17, 2023

Who loves Da Finchman? These guys do! MTV Movie Award-losing duo Mitch and Nick of the Doughboys join us to talk about David Fincher’s breakthrough hit - the nasty noir SE7EN. What can you expect from this episode? Lots of talk about “playground rumors” related to what this movie does and doesn’t actually show, a full taxonomy of Kevin Spacey’s on-screen persona, the true identity of the Zodiac killer, and a VERY Doughboys description of the film’s “gluttony” murder. Guest Links:  Listen to Doughboys Join the Doughboys' Golden or Platinum Plate Club This episode is sponsored by:  Stamps.com (CODE: CHECK) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

you're no messiah you're a movie of the week you're a fucking podcast at best very good thank you have more i don't know i figured you might have more here what's in the pod yeah say say wait i thought all you did was uh kill innocent podcast david wait i thought all you did was killing this in podcast innocent is that supposed to be funny? I really thought I was going to guess this one. Oh, really? Okay. Locked and loaded, I thought you were going to do the final line of the movie.

Ernest Hemingway once wrote, The world is a fine podcast and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part. That's fucking good, Weix. Or the podcast is a fine place and worth fighting for. I don't know a lot of ways to play it. Worth podcasting. You know what that is right now, Weigert?

Yeah. That's the juice of a man who, out of solidarity with the Writers Guild strike, has not been writing intros for his own podcast for several months. That's true. You have excess energy. I feel depleted. And why are you depleted? I just finished doing too many shows at the edinburgh fringe festival my brain is a trash many too many can i say it officially too many shows too many

too many shows yeah you're josh hartnett at the end of 30 days and 30 nights mitch he went 40 days and we were talking 40 days mitch we were talking hurt this is like 10 minutes this is before you showed up mitch was so mitch was understandably late no one's mad at him he's dealing with some intestinal distress it happens to everyone i don't i want to say actually did you not want me to say that no no it's no it's fine it's fine don't speak for me when you say understandable if there's anything i'm not sympathetic to it's people being late not communicating why they're late because of some of the issues. These are things

I have no experience with, and I detest in other people. Go on. Before you arrived, we were talking, we had an extended conversation about Josh Hartnett, and specifically cited 40 Days and 40 Nights as maybe like, is that his big movie? Is that what he's known for?

Was that his peak? Is that a depressing peak? What do you think Hartnett's signature film is? Yes, signature film is the term. Hmm, The Faculty? Is he in that? Oh, fuck, that's the answer. Is it though? Yes, that's the answer.

That's wild. That's one of his first things. But it is. That's what he was cashing checks on. This is why we need you here. This is why we couldn't do this episode. And it was great to arrive here and then there was a group of

beautiful people I don't know sitting outside the bathroom. Which is great. They all had old timey ear trumpets pointed towards the bathroom. When you walked out of the bathroom they scurried to put their empty water glasses back on the shelf

as if they hadn't been using them to listen on the other side of the door. I was already depressed and I walked in and I was like, oh, you've got to be fucking kidding me. Because you told me that there was, first of all, you texted me and said there's only one bathroom today, which I was like, oh my god, this is awful. And then just seeing the crew here, I was like,

god damn it. I'm just going to look like a monster. That's all I'm afraid of. For listeners, Mitch and I are at our Podcast Network's HeadGum's office in L.A. And we're doing this remotely, but we're together in L.A. Yes. And the studio is uncharacteristically bustling today. Yeah. Which means that there's more than, like, me, you, and Casey in here, basically.

It's the post outside. I don't know if we want to say who it was, but one of our guests recently broke our toilet. Yes, he did. He did. Not with digestive force. No. With his hands, by mistake. And we

really should introduce the podcast. Yeah, this is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a miniseries on the films of David Fincher. It's called The Curious Pot of Benjamin Butt Cast.

That's right. Today we're talking about the movie Seven with the Doughboys, Nick Weiger, Mike Mitchell. So recently a guest broke our toilet. Yes. Yeah. I wanted to get that out of the way as quickly as possible. The intro, so I could get back to the most important thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our broken toilet, which has since been fixed.

But we record in like a windowless box. Yeah. It's a big box. Right. Now, a luxury of it is we do have our own bathroom. Yes. It's right there. But it's right there.

We're pointing right over here. So if you're going to the bathroom, you're kind of going to the bathroom in the room, basically. Dear God. It's a guest on an episode going to the bathroom in the room. Basically. It's a guest on an episode yet to come, but has been recorded already. Maybe we'll reveal who it is after that episode's come out. But he said, can I use the bathroom? We said, sure. Walked in, closed the door,

and then we heard, whoops! And like a crashing sound. It was truly like a cartoon, like, whoops! And then him going, what's happening? Essentially, as the toilet lid fell to the ground. Right.

Like, absurd Mr. Bean effects. And then, like, five minutes later he walked out and said, your toilet is broken. It was good. Was it a friend, at least? Is it something that you know well? Yeah, it was. I'd say past tense. No! Friend forever. Yes. Was it a friend at least? Yeah, it was. I'd say past tense.

No. Friend forever. Yes. No, a future guest. A future guest. Nick and Mitch, thank you for doing this. What a treat. I love this podcast.

The four of us have become, well, the two of us with the two of you have become friends via podcasting, I feel like. Yes. That's a nice little benefit of this medium the blank dough text thread yep it's it's a great a great text thread and a popping social scene i think so yeah a lot of goss dropping in the blank dough but also a lot of takes sure takes mom i told you gran turismo is good yesterday i said i like gran turismo blew up in the text i need to see that i need to see it right uh yeah no i do think the blank i've said this before but i think the the greatest utility of the blankdo uh text thread is uh it's become a great place for us to uh type things out uh instead of putting them on Twitter. Yes, 100%.

Basically weaning me off of social media. Right, and sometimes it's because it's spicy and you don't want to share it on main, and other times you're just like, this is so banal. This is the kind of banal thing I would tweet six years ago and I'd be fine, and if I did today, people would yell at me for reasons

I cannot even fathom. Right, yeah. Our buddy Evan Susser, the commissioner of the Doughboys Tournament of Champions, for people who know our podcast, a good friend, and he is, he has been doing bespoke memes

just for text threads, which I feel like is the next step of that. Yeah, that's good. Like, I'm not going to put this meme on social media. I'm just going to send

this to like three friends. Yes. My friends, Austin Rodriguez and Yoni Lotan, who I was on a UCB sketch team with for years, would do that in our group text.

It was very impressive, the speed and the effort for things that would only be seen by 10 people maximum. Right. So here's the table setting I wanted to do. When the burger hits. I'm just wondering what his memes are. When the burger hits. So speaking of memes, there's the account Doughboysmemes I don't know who runs this

Someone who just makes doughboys memes Tried to follow me on Instagram recently That got a delete You can't see my pics But yes I am aware of him And good job Whoever he is Or she

Or they We just yesterday And a good job, whoever he is. Or she. Sure. Or they. Absolutely. We just yesterday, as of the time of this recording, announced that we were doing Fincher. Yeah. And the Doughboys meme account posted a picture of Mark Zuckerberg in the deposition room in Social Network saying, if you, what was the fucking, Doughboys when they they hear that blank check is doing the finch man right if uh if you wanted to be doughboys you'd have invented doughboys i don't know something like that you guys got there first that's what he's saying this is the table setting i want to

do okay we kind of stole the awful yeah well here's the thing we decided to do david fincher on this podcast because he is certainly a blank check director and he you know has a new film out this year called The Killer you guys decided to do it because because May the name of the month May well I think it sounds like May I think we need to back up even further here okay go ahead go ahead there are a number of guys on the list of like Fincher and Tarantino and whoever, where people go, how is it possible you guys have been doing this show this long and you haven't covered blank?

Sure. Right? The guys who are so canonically huge, especially I think the guys who are really big with our generation, the sort of 90s film bro auteurs. And for some of them, it was like, well, it's good to have them in the back pocket.

So if we do a couple esoteric people in a row, we know we can have like a bigger heavy hitter guy. And also if they've got something interesting. Yes. But with some of them also, we would get into the conversation where we're like, is it worth doing Fincher? He's so discussed. Is there anything we have to add to the conversation? We both love him and his movies. But sometimes we're like, fuck, I want to do Fincher. And other times we're like, maybe we never need to to the conversation. We both love him and his movies, but sometimes we're like,

fuck, I want to do Fincher, and other times we're like, maybe we never need to do Fincher. So you guys start doing, you did one one-off Fincher episode at first. Was Gone Girl the first one? So, yeah. We started saying,

and I don't remember the genesis of it, but we were saying, we loved a Finch man. Right. We would say that as like a, that was like a guy, the we loved a Finch man guy. We would say. Yeah, it was, that was like a guy, the we loved a Finch man guy. We would say.

it was like a Northern European. Yeah. We really didn't want to say where we was from. We didn't want to specify where the accent was from and then we also kind of stopped doing the accent

because it felt vaguely problematic. Yeah, Mitch just started saying how much he loved Fincher movies in an episode and then we loved the Finch man became.

We loved the Finch man. We loved the Finch man. There he is. And so. I brought the accent back. I think he's Nord i'm glad you did yeah he's nordic he's like a cheerful nordic guy right yeah who like lives in the countryside so he's a little right he's a little rural right yeah yes and so the so we started saying that and then that led to people like people love that to the point where we have merch that i'm wearing i never wear merch but we have a we love to finch man shirt we made uh and uh kinship goods made and that that led to us doing a gone girl episode and then gone girl

episode people's response to that led to us doing a theme month for fincher called a mink yeah which we did uh five five of his films over the course of May. Which I was going to wear that shirt today too. And truly my tummy troubles just made everything chaotic. And I just forgot to put it on. I'm mad. You did the Gone Girl app. And I think I texted in the group chat. It'd be funny if you guys piecemeal covered all the Fincher movies before we did. Right.

That's right. And it would remove the burden from us. Yes. And I let that joke just stay in the air for a did. That's right. And it would remove the burden from us. Yes. And I let that joke just stay in the air for a while. Yeah. Right. Like how Mitch let something stay in the air for a while recently. Dear God.

Sorry. It's the last. I won't do it again. I shouldn't have done it to begin with. It's not my role in this friendship. There was nothing. You couldn't. It doesn't.

It didn't. There was not a single smell made. Good. Good. Good. Good. Not didn't there was not a single smell made good good good good not a single aroma not a single smell made by the way i'm trying to look up something and that and that i'm not trying i'm not trying i'm not being rude by being my phone but i met fincher's ad on the on the uh picket line i've never talked about this and i and some guy was walking up behind me he was like what's that what that? And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, what's that shirt you're wearing? And I was wearing We Love the Finchmen shirt.

And he's like, hold on. And he took a picture of it. And he's like, I'm sending it to David. Wow. And it was Fincher's AD, whose name I'm looking up. Is it Richard Goodwin? I'm looking up his ADs. Matt McKinnon? I think it was bob i think it

might have been bob wagner bob wagner i'll see governor of new york in the 50s of course but probably not him um but i i tweeted i tweeted that comment out or i texted that comment i see him yeah and he also worked on the empty man okay cool and then like maybe a month or two later David and I are trying to strategize our schedule and David goes let me just pitch Fincher

right he said just let me make the argument A slots in here with what we have this number of weeks new movie coming out

first movie in a couple years yada yada yada makes the Fincher play and I say how much of this is you genuinely not wanting Doughboys to get all the Fincher movies out before we... None. Not at all.

This is David's contention, okay? No. So then I text you guys and I go, hey, so I think we're going to do Fincher. Obviously, knowing you guys love Da Finch Man, we'd love to have you on one of them. You know, you guys love Da Finch Man, we'd love to have you on. One of them, you know,

I think half jokingly, like, I guess we realized we want to do it before you guys get to them. And then you went, oh, that's funny because we just decided all of May is Fincher.

So I came to you saying we were doing it right before you told me that you guys had committed to doing five in a row. That's right. But we came to an agreement and I think this worked out well

because we're not doing, we didn't cover seven. Yes. And that was partly because, it was largely because you said, would you like to do seven on blank check? These two things have been

coordinated for a while. Yes. We just plan our podcast five years in advance. Right. And by the way, the other plus side you guys have is that we're dipshits and we didn't really cover anything at all. No.

So. I also like that you guys didn't cover Mank. Yeah, you didn't cover Mank. You're right. We didn't cover Mank. We didn't cover Mank in Mank. Right. And you even extended it to Junk and still didn't cover Mank.

We did Junk and we didn't cover Mick. That's because we just wanted to watch one more, right? Wasn't it? Yeah, we just wanted to fit an extra movie in there. I mean, you guys are masters of planning in that way, though. You really do like to maximize. I mean, not since, what was it? Hot Dober Fest? Hot Dog?

Dog Do Bark. Dog Do Bark Fest. A month-long celebration of hot dogs and pet dogs right which you did a month where you only reviewed hot dogs uh a food that in that year nick had sworn off from eating and mitch is uh infamously incapable of pronouncing i mean we're idiots we don't plan things. And we didn't say a single good thing. I'll say this. Nick Weiger doesn't like almost anything. And he loves your guy's show.

This is the truth. I wouldn't. You're saying I'm some sort of like a cynic. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I don't mean it like that. I see as someone who's been in the entertainment world for a long time, you never get excited about things the way there's some stuff I'll get excited about that you won't care about. Yeah.

But he gets excited about your podcast all the time. I'm not trying to say he's a man who doesn't have any joy. He does have joy. Mitch, you're forgetting one thing that Weiger loves with his whole heart. What's that? The Finch man. We love the Finch man.

We love the Finch man. I love the Finch man. And he loves the blank check. Here's my question. The Nordic guy now canonically likes the Finch band. And he loves the blank check. Here's my question. The Nordic guy now canonically likes the blank check too. That guy? That same guy? Yeah, that same guy.

So David said maybe you guys do seven. And then we got to the gentleman's agreement that you would hold it off of Mank. And then a couple times we said, by the way, if you want a different one, you want to pick a different one. I know, Weiger, you had said Zodiac's your favorite film of his. It's mine as well. It felt like that was maybe

a conflict of interest for you to cover Zodiac just because you're still actively a suspect in that investigation. Right. If nothing else, you're cribbing,

you know, right? Right. Weiger loves the Zodiac like I would love the Mike Mitchell story. But you guys, you accepted Seven, the idea of Seven. Anytime we sort of threw out like alternate pitches, you kept on coming back to Seven.

What is the relationship both of you have to Seven? Oh, man. Want me to go first? You probably have a, you, in a good way, you were just a year or two older than me or whatever. I don't know how much older you are than me. I joke that you're much older. But I was like, you know, maybe 13 when I saw it.

Sure. And saw it on VHS. And it was that thing, like the kids in my, I mean, just in general, the world being like, you know, like a tool and nine inch nails and kind of the nineties discovering the dark side of something. So many kids were like, you got to see, you got to see seven. And also still kind of being like a young, not religious. I don't think I was a religious kid, but like the fear of God was still in me. So the idea that like these people were going to get killed by the seven deadly sins was kind of fascinating to me. And just, you know, like every kid that could see the movie at 13 years old or whatever, who shouldn't really be seeing it, telling me I had to see it was so it was so hyped up.

And to me, it was like one of the vhs tapes that i watched before i should have probably and loved you know what i mean watching it when i watched it this time i hadn't seen it in a really long time and i appreciated it for for different things i did back then but i think that i that i i i i was like i i didn't know you could be so dark in entertainment or you could make a movie that dark i think that's what it was for me there is an interesting like subgenre of r-rated movies that almost feel like they're designed to be best enjoyed by a 13 year old sneaking a viewing right yes right and not that like they're not that they're juvenile or that they don't have value for adults but you're

just sort of like is there a better way to see seven or robocop or the matrix right it's just i mean it's the age we all are i know we're you know we're a few years apart but the age we're all generally that this was just the touchstone i've never seen a movie this fucked up movie for us like i had never seen a movie that's fucked up a seven when i saw seven yeah i was also probably 12 or something on VHS. Yeah. You maybe had,

I don't know. I'd seen Rugrats in Paris, which it goes to some pretty dark areas. They are lost in Paris, so that's an issue. Chucky lost his mom, which is very sad.

But like, lost her, like he doesn't know where she is. She's not dead. No, she's dead. Is she? Chucky's mom's canonically,

yeah, it's a dark-ass movie. Oh, no, right, right, right. She's, well, she's, but she's dead when Rugrats begins, right? It's canonically, yeah, it's a dark-ass woman. Oh, no, right, right, right. She's, well, she's, but she's dead when Rugrats begins, right? It's Chucky, a single, he has a single father. Oh, does that make it better to you?

Well, it's just, it's not like it happens in Rugrats in Paris. We have to grapple with it because his father falls in love with a new woman that's pretty fucking dark. That's, yeah,

that is pretty dark. Okay, so, Withdrawn, and obviously that's a darker film. Yes. But Seven is still fairly dark. I don't think there are any bladed dildos in Rugrats in Paris That I can remember

No they saved that for Rugrats Go Wild It's the third movie Nick what about you with Seven So similar to Mitch I saw this on VHS I was not old enough to see an R rated movie In theater I can't remember I think I got my Convinced my dad to rent it for me

uh and it was my my way into it is kids at school had told me yes it like what's in the movie before i saw that was my exact thing i was gonna say is like someone being like dude there's like gluttony and then like there's a big fat guy and they fucking feed him spaghetti and they kick him in the stomach he fucking explodes which do they spaghetti and they kick him in the stomach. He fucking explodes. Do they talk about him kicking him in the stomach? There is a line where they say he kicked him in the stomach to kill him, but it is a thing of like I was expecting a Monty Python

fat guy explosion. That's the thing. We all heard about it in the playground and imagined something so ridiculous for all of this stuff. It sounded like a movie that was fake to me. Yes. When I was 11 years old

and on a school bus or whatever and someone was like, and then he makes like, this guy have sex with like a spiky penis. And I'm just like, that's not real. Hollywood didn't make that.

That's not allowed. No, and specifically that thing, I mean, connected to the thing I was bringing up of like R-rated movies that feel almost laser targeted to 13-year-old boys, this kind of thing where someone describes a movie to you

and you cannot even visualize it. Yeah. You know, like we spend a lot of time describing movies for a living, David. Sure. And I think rarely do people go like, that's impossible what you're saying. They accept it at face value.

But when you're like 12 or 13, you haven't seen a ton of movies. And someone describes a thing to but when you're like 12 or 13 you haven't seen a ton of movies and someone describes a thing to you where you're like i don't even understand how that happens in front of a camera how could how could they possibly show this yes which you know what still think that when you watch the i mean when you watch some of this movie i still wonder how they they got away with some of that stuff it's it's it's wild what's the not not to skip ahead too far here but like what is the worst murder? Like,

what is the one where you're like, that's the most brutal or the one I'd want to have the least inflicted on me or? I think it's the sex worker. It's probably the, it's probably lust.

Yeah. You think it's lust? The lust as an adult's lust was like, oh, this is horrible. A lot of people are involved too, so it's kind of like, it ripples in a way

that the others don't. I think it's weird. Someone's still alive and is aware of what happened. The glorious and psychologically the most torture. Yes. That one's bad. I'm trying to remember. I mean, sloth is so nasty.

I'd be good with gluttony, honestly. I think if someone was just feeding me the sauce, I think I'd be okay. It's like me watching Supersize Me where I was just like, Idonald's like this looks good like that was my reaction to that movie i think it was like oh my god this fry is making me sick shut the fuck up spurlock full of shit i feel like greed is pretty bad because of the psychological torment of having to like cut off part of your body to cut off his own flesh. Yeah. And that's just like that's that's gnarly.

I think that the sloth thing where he's still alive. Yeah, that was I remember that being like kind of the nastiest shock, right? Where he's in the bed or is that that's sloth, right? Yeah, it's sloth. Yeah. And then suddenly you're like, this is a corpse. I think the playground thing, that was a corpse i think the playground thing that was the thing that was the playground thing that was so hyped up yeah for like sloth was the thing that

you heard of like gluttony and sloth were the two things that you heard about before you saw the movie but that's like i mean like even just hearing us trying to describe this and hash this stuff out now right we're goonies gluttony and Sloth. Yeah, everyone called Chunk Gluttony. The fifth sin, Corey Feldman. The weirdness of this movie where if you're a kid and another kid has gotten a seat before you and he's describing it, you're like, is this a

horror movie? Is it like a prosthetics-heavy cartoon? Is it like a prosthetics heavy cartoon? Is it a serious crime thriller? I don't understand how these things can coexist in one film, let alone a movie that adults are taking seriously. So my dad, my dad lived

in the United Kingdom without us, without the rest of my family from 1994 to 1995. He would come back every month because the whole thing was he got this job in England and he wasn't sure if he was going to stay, you know, like, and then we all moved. Right. And I lived in England.

But in that one year he was living alone. I think he saw more movies. Oh, sure. So this is one of this is to me a classic. My dad actually saw this movie. And he said, I can't wait till you move to London so I can take you to C7. But I remember him telling me about it. And obviously, in a way in a way yes the same way of like you're too young for this but i saw this crazy movie and the way again i was just like i was pretty young then i was probably

10 yeah i was just like you're describing something that sounds like pornography to me not in terms of like it just in terms of like this isn't mainstream you said it sounds like you're talking about like some snuff movie you saw like yeah not something, that's something that's like, oh, yeah, fucking, you know, New Line Cinema presents like. Well, like another movie we covered this year, Trainspotting, right? I remember my parents going to see Trainspotting and my mom describing the toilet scene to me. And I was like, well, what you're describing sounds like it happens on a Nickelodeon show that I watch and you walk by in the background and scoff and go, this is so silly. Right, not in like an art house festival. Right. And I'm like, what do you mean you respect the movie you just saw where a man

climbs headfirst into a toilet and goes down into the sewers? Right. You know? Sims, I have a question. In the UK cut of Seven, was it still sauce with gluttony or was it like figgy pudding or something instead? Figgy pudding. Sloth with a u yeah they um yeah no they uh oh shit i'm trying to think of another brit joke i could make right now uh the the the dildo was made of aluminium i don't know what was the uk us conversion rate in 1995? Oh, like, so seven deadly sins was actually 4.5 British sins.

Yes. One of the deadly sins is oversteeping your tea. Oh, I mean... Because then it tastes like... I remember my friend saying that to me once. It tastes like... He was like, you can't leave the bag in too long because then it's like... I remember making a tent and I was like, he's right. That once. It tastes like... He was like, you can't leave the bag in too long. Because I was like, I remember making a tent.

And I was like, he's right. That's what it tastes like. No, the weirdest thing about 7-2 is that it is not like an arthouse hit at all. It was a... It played like a blockbuster. Yes. And like... It was like it played at a film festival or anything like that.

Like it was not being released as a prestige film. It was a bizarre September blockbuster that was being sold as, like, a nasty little genre movie. Right. It's like, it's in the same vein in terms of its release strategy as, like, Kiss the Girls. Yeah. Something like that. Like, you know, all those Morgan Freeman thrillers that come after it. And then you read the reviews at the time and, like, it feels like 40 percent of critics just dismiss it as like this is just too much.

One hundred. That's what I remember. Like because I remember reading reviews of this movie and at the time, like like in the newspaper and Newsweek and then it being like kind of like critically dismissed. I could be my memory could be wrong about that. But I remember it like being kind of like, you know, this is this is a this is a cheap entertainment or, you know, this is lurid for its own sake. It was spread out like there were people who were tapped into it early. Ebert was like there from the beginning, I think, pretty much. But I think even those reviews were like, this is an exceptionally made thriller. It was not like, this is a film worthy of Oscar consideration. It was more like, this is a film worthy of Oscar consideration. It was more like, this is a really good

noir movie. Right. You know, that's nasty because it's the 90s. And then also, and his name will come up several times,

I'm sure, during this episode because it has to, Kevin Spacey won a ton of critics awards that year for this

and the usual suspects. Excuse me. Right? I was looking it up. There are multiple, at least five awards that year for this and the usual suspects excuse me right i was looking it up there are multiple at least five awards that gave him split supporting actor across right swimming with sharks yeah usual suspects seven and outbreak outbreak his 95 was in fucking saint right it was sort of that like he's arrived this, character actor who's been hanging around. Yes. You know, watching it again, I kind of like Pitt's performance the most in the movie. I don't know if that's...

We can talk about it. I mean, I think Freeman is incredible in this movie. I agree. Pitt, it's like, is this his first serious performance? I guess 12 Monkeys is the same year. Yeah, but 12 Monkeys, he films right after this. Right. And it comes out... Maybe right before? Legends of the Fall?

Was that just before this? Yeah, he's so bad at Legends of the Fall. He's coming off the Hard Rob run. He's coming off of Legends of the Fall, River Runs Through It, Interview with a Vampire. Like, this and 12 Monkeys are him being like, I finally have Caché. I need to push back on being a pretty boy.

12 Monkeys came out December. So it comes out a few months later. Right. And he similarly, he gets the 12 Monkeys nomination that feels like it's a little bit for this. I do think Spacey's usual suspects win is a little bit for this.

For sure. You know, like this movie has several people who are just like really kind of cresting. They cast really perfectly. But going back to just the intensity of this film, JJ, our researcher, put together a very good dossier of stuff on this movie. There are a lot of weird apocryphal myths about this film. This is the kind of movie that myths extend from.

But like everyone fucking turned this movie down. The list of people who were straight off for this film, huge stars, and we'll get to the development process up to this point, but like this was the biggest budget movie New Line had made up until this point in time. And this was New Line trying to level up and be like, here's a script that's great,

but it's a little too grisly for any of the bigger studios to make. We're going to treat this as our first A movie, whereas Warner Brothers would treat this as a B movie. And it was their biggest budget ever, which was $35,000, and they tried to get every fucking star attached. And you

read through this list, and it's like, everyone who reads the script goes, like, this is morally offensive. You know? Like, Denzel, Al Pacino, Harrison it's like everyone who reads the script goes like, this is morally offensive. Right. You know? Like Denzel, Al Pacino, Harrison Ford, like everyone.

Denzel like sounded scared. He was like, this is evil. Correct. Like it's not even them being like, this would hurt my reputation to be in a movie that's this nasty. Their attitude is like,

how dare you? I'm going to fire my reps for even passing this along to me for consideration, which this movie is still intense, but it is wild to think about at that point almost 30 years ago, people were like, this would be ruinous to

not just my career, but culture at large if it got made. Now it's kind of like, you want to go on the Doughboys podcast? Your agent reached out to you about that. How dare you suggest this to me? I'm firing you immediately. The things that were most interesting to me about it. And I'm sure you haven't done the dossier of,

of people who turned it down. Uh, one they talk about on the commentary is Arlie Ermey, I guess, read for John Doe, which is insane to think about. And then the other one, they also,

I guess, offered it to Ned Beatty, who was similarly was like, this is the most, this is, I guess, offered it to Ned Beatty who was, similarly was like, this is the most, this is pure evil. It's the most evil thing I've ever read. Yes.

Kind of fun to imagine. Right. They had no concept of John Doe, it sounds like, because those are three very different actors. Like,

Ned Beatty. Yeah. It's so weird that they'd settled on Kevin Spacey, though, playing like a dead voice, you know, psychopath. Like, that just,

it's just not something he's good at. Look, I don't know the order in which we can discuss what the proper way to do it, but like, while watching this movie, and just thinking about like, especially a lot of things that have come to light about Kevin Spacey in the last couple years, I'm talking post-allegations,

right? Sure. In Kevin Spacey's attempt to sort of defend himself and clean up his character, he has really played up the trauma of his childhood, which is legitimate. Sure. In Kevin Spacey's attempt to sort of defend himself and clean up his character, he has really played up the trauma of his childhood, which is legitimate. Sure, sure. But you like read about how intense his childhood was and you're like, right, this is kind of the story you hear on a true crime documentary about what leads a man to become a murderer. And instead with him, it led a man to become really good at playing murderers in movies and then the power of stardom leading to him being a psychopath right and now he's out to

dinner with elton john that's what i saw recently yeah i want to give you guys some background on the film Seven from our dossier. And I do want to point out that Mank, a film that the Dubboys have never discussed. Will never discuss. Maybe will never discuss. Was on deck. He was, the script was ready. His dad, Jack Fincher, wrote the script for Mank. Yeah. And the script was ready after Alien 3.

And he thought about pursuing Mank. Yeah. And like the script was ready after Alien 3 and he thought about like, you know, pursuing Mank this early in his career. Well, he also had the attitude post Alien 3 of like, I never want to make a movie again. Well, he's a little bit of that. That was fucking miserable.

And I think, you hear about a lot of guys like this, and this is another thing that speaks to like the sort of critical uneasiness around this movie when it came out, is there was still such a, like, you're just a fucking music video director.

You're, you guys are flashy. It's all style. You don't have like the, the actual know-how, uh, or the integrity or the human depth or whatever it is. But, uh,

for a lot of those guys, there, there are a lot of examples of like, they make their one big movie and they go like, this is not fucking worth it. I can make commercials and music videos and make $20 million a year on much shorter shoots with much less interference.

Right. The Kinka Ushers of the world. The Kinka Usher, the Joe Pitkas. Yes. But it did feel like Fincher was kind of half in this zone of like maybe I just fucking go back to the more lucrative thing and make sense that he's like maybe I just make my dad's script before I retire from movies forever.

He also met with the Bond producers, he says, when they were transitioning to Pierce Brosnan. Although he says, believe me, they didn't want to hear from me. Right. But he did have a meeting with them. He told his reps not to send him scripts, which is why he was considering

Manc so seriously at this point in time, because it's the only thing he's reading. He also was attached, actually attached, to the remake of The Avengers, the British Avengers, which was eventually turned into a movie with Ralph Fiennes and

Uma Thurman. A movie that ultimately was directed by Jeremiah Cheshik, director of producer Ben's beloved National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, who was inexplicably the original director attached to Seven.

He was the first choice. That's right. Because he was like, I want to go more serious. I've been doing too many companies. And instead, he made The Avengers. Yes.

But they did a full swap years apart. Yes. So this is a spec script written by Andrew Kevin Walker. He said he wrote it in sort of the late 80s in New York. Yeah. Yeah, so this is a spec script written by Andrew Kevin Walker. He said he wrote it in sort of the late 80s in New York.

Yeah. And, you know, sort of nasty New York. Right. Which he says is sort of informing the vibe. He grows up in the suburbs. He moves to New York.

He's like, this is the most decrepit, degenerate, disgusting place on Earth. How can anywhere be this evil? He worked at Tower Records. Yes. And,

yeah. Basically, this script was his motivating force to be like, I want to write a script so good I can quit my fucking job at Tower Records. Mm-hmm.

And it was like a two and a half year process of writing this script. Just being like, if I can, I just need to fucking get out so I, this could be my last month ever

working here. And then, indeed, it gets sold to a company called, uh, be my last month ever working here. And then, indeed, it gets sold to a company called PentaFilm, and they option it for Jeremiah Chesik. Is that how you say his name?

And he demands a rewrite that includes removing the head from the box. Right. It's generally just a sanitized version of the movie. A classic Hollywood, you've written this incredible call-and-card script. Oh my God, what an incredible uncompromising view. Right. Obviously, we're not going to let you make any of this. So he goes

through like a year or two developing it with this company, going along with all their rewrite pitches. Yeah, he's right. Doing a script that he basically says, if it had ever gotten made, would have ruined his career. Right. Would have been a dead end. It was offered to Phil Junot, who is best known as the

director of many a youtube music video was a fincher contemporary but was more uh heralded as this guy might have the goods to be a feature director than fincher was um and he was going to make it maybe with gary oldman but they found it too grim. And as you say, Fincher, Post Alien 3, a movie we all like, I think. Good movie. Is just like, don't even send me scripts. Like, forget it. I fuck it.

I hate all of this. And that's a movie with an unrelentingly bleak worldview that Fox kept on pushing up against. So you can just imagine when he's reading a script like this he's just like what's it gonna look like at the end of this fucking process right right how will they ruin it but mike deluca uh who obviously is the mr new line at the time now he runs uh warner brothers right

he just got put in charge of warner brothers is like i want you to make this uh fincher reads the script and he's just like, this is so evil. And then he reads the ending and is like, I can't believe this is the ending of this movie. And famously, they had sent him the wrong script. They had sent him the unsanitized version and they meant to send him the no head version. So New Line had sort of rolled back the script to the earlier version before the previous company had butchered it.

The Jeremiah Cheswick version. But they still were like, this can't be the ending. And then, yes, Fincher gets the wrong draft. Fincher gets the fucked up draft and is like, I really want to do this. And they're like, oh, we sent you the wrong script. Read the other script.

And he's like, I don't like that. I want to do the thing you sent me. I want to do the fucked up version and uh and every conversation you read from then on out is obviously head in a box as a non-starter david don't even fight me on it it's not happening sure and fincher was just like so adamant and and the argument i think it's in the dossier that he puts it to the the producer what's the producer's name on this film? Arnold Copelson. Yeah. He said, and this is a point where he's like,

no one's expecting this movie is going to be a genuine blockbuster, right? Right. They think it's going to be some weird cult curio thing. This is the weird side project a bunch of big stars made in between glossier Hollywood movies. And he said, this is the ultimate outcome we want for this movie is just imagine a couple kids in a schoolyard 20 years from now being like,

have you ever seen this fucked up movie that ends with a woman's head in a box? And they'll all be like, oh yeah, yeah, I remember that. And he's like, if we put that in the movie, no one will ever forget that they've seen this movie. Even if the movie doesn't succeed in theaters at the time it is amazing that this ending exists

in such like a mainstream studio film because this was the era of like I remember like the scarlet letter like they like they like put in a happy ending they grafted a happy ending onto that and it's like that I feel like they were completely averse to doing anything ending on

a down note at all throughout the 90s. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I can't think of any other examples. No, I think you're right. Like peak, sort of like the player era Hollywood. They're going to sanitize everything. Like you're saying, they're sending this script to people who are big actors who are like, I won't do this movie. And how dare you even send me this? They receive the script.

Then they tie it to a brick and throw it back through the window of new life but Brad Pitt claims I think Brad Pitt can be a bit of a fabulous god bless him but claims that he like contractually demanded the head stay in the box like when he signed on

that and also Mills shooting and that he you know his character kills John Doe. Which, just watching it last night, the ending is, of course, heavy. Yeah. And I was like, would it have bothered me if Morgan Freeman shot Spacey? I don't know if it would have bothered me. I guess it does just take away from the bleakness of it all.

Well, Mitch, you were putting forth the question of is pitt the best performance in this movie and i don't know if i agree with that but he kills the final scene so hard i love it and he just plays he plays such a great dumb guy in this movie that's why he's good dumb's so fucking dumb. And you just read about like, well, like, you know, it's hard to gauge what was the actual first round pick if Fincher had his choice from all the people

they offered it to. Right. But it's like, it sounds like he really wanted a version that was like Gene Hackman and Denzel, right? Where like Mills is younger than Somerset,

but he's not young. Yeah. Right, right, right, right. And Pitt was so outside of, like, the type they were thinking of. He just had so much heat, and studios wanted him to do anything at that point, and he latched onto it.

And Fincher was like, he's wrong for this. And New Line was like, please take the meeting. If you cast this guy, you'll be able to get away with more, right? And he was just like, I met with him, and I

thought he was completely wrong for the part, but there was something about, like, you kind of wanted to root for this guy. And Fincher has this quote, he said it in, when he was going through the whole insane process, casting Dragon Tattoo, which we'll obviously get to in a later episode, but when he was

doing such rigorous testing of, like, every single actress in Hollywood, and he said said like, the reason I was so stubborn about this and relentless about it was that like, I think the thing you want to find when you're casting your leads and casting your movie stars is like the essential quality they have in their being that no matter what is going to come through on camera. Because like shoots are long, they're intense. I'm going to do 100 takes with people. It's not about how good they are on the first take. It's about what am I not going to be able to beat out of their system,

even when they're exhausted and run down. And the thing that works, and you kind of can't imagine this wasn't by design from the first place, is that like, Pitt has the energy of a guy who is trying so hard to prove that he is a serious actor it's right where he is in his career he's like he's trying to be serious in the movie and he's and the character is like i'm a real cop like i'm and like that's why morgan freeman is so good could not be more relaxed he's so just like yeah you know like just like he's not even he doesn't even have an attitude no he's just

literally seen it all right and morgan freeman comes in and he's like cut like 40 of my dialogue like he goes through the script with fincher all right okay okay you're you're and pitt's like give me more give me more give me more okay so all right some of the people linked to the pacino is the big one yeah for somerset hates playingates playing cops, though. Very different movie. I cannot imagine mid-90s Pacino doing this. He'd be so loud and over the top. I mean, I love him. It'd be a nightmare. Every other version that you said,

I mean, like just Denzel taking over Pitt's role, the movie doesn't work in the same way. There's just, it does feel perfect. Well, there's a scene they they you know the the the lust interrogation uh with the actor's name is of is great uh but and and it's it's him like he's you know he's giving his his hyperventilating uh description of what happened to him and what john doe did to him and what he got strapped into alien resurrection guy yes yeah and he's damn good but he's opposite Morgan Freeman and they they like Fincher and Pitt who are together in the

commentary like zero and I was like like and like they're like like and Freeman just sitting there like he's just looking at him like he's not doing anything in that scene and that like calmness that calming presence it just like it's like the blue doesn't show up on blue thing right like he's like the the little bit of calm that's amidst all the chaos uh in in this uh throughout this city and throughout this investigation some sonic the hedgehog saying the blue doesn't show up on blue that's why his belly's a different color oh okay all right that's it and his shoes um all right hackman supposedly passed on the movie duval and harrison ford i don't know I imagine they offer it to every single person they're still laughing about Sonic we made ourselves laugh over here

we're sorry it's quite all right Morgan Freeman loves the script this is right after Shawshank right like yeah so he's I guess it's probably... Has it come out? It's 93, right? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Or is it 94? No, there's the...

I thought Shawshank was 94. Is it 93? But they're shooting this movie in 94. Yeah, exactly. So Shawshank is just... He's definitely got... I'm just trying to pick... Because this is the beginning of Morgan Freeman movie star,

in my opinion, even though like, those two things give him a lot of prestige, and he's in other smaller roles. But like now, after this, it's like Kiss the Girls,

Long Came a Spider, Million, you know, like Morgan Freeman is your star. I think the tail on Daisy is very long, right? All right. Jeez.

She's got a fat ass, Miss Daisy. That's all I'm saying. No, Tandy drove you wild. Almost like a truck. No, I think that movie was so huge and beloved. Sure. And I think almost like immediately became like a TV mainstay. Right.

Right. So he's like, you know. And then Shawshank, which famously performed when it came out, but is like such a beloved performance. You know,

he said the main reason he accepted this movie, Freeman, when every other actor is turning it down morally and New Line said, hey, what about Morgan Freeman?

And Fincher went like, don't even offer it to Morgan Freeman. He's going to be so offended. Right. And they were like, Freeman's read it it to Morgan Freeman. He's going to be so offended. Right. And they were like, Freeman's read it and he's interested. Yes.

And he meets with him and he's like, why do you want to do this? When all these other guys have said no, who have done gnarlier movies than you. And Freeman was basically like, like not to sound like ego driven, but like I was not getting offered many films where I was the guy

carrying the story at that point you know and he was like he was basically right Daisy and Shawshank but in both of those cases

he's a little more secondary right and even though Pitt's first build in this it really is Freeman who's moving it along and he was like the fact that

Shawshank I was narrating and I got to carry the story I read the script and I was like the script's good my guy's on every page and he got to carry the story I read the script and I was like the script's good my guy's on every page and he's sort of the steady hand how am I going to say no to that but as you say he asked for a little bit of a

freak myself too well it might be a little of that I don't know I like putting things in boxes he did ask for stuff to get cut which I feel like is a rare demand for an actor like hey I need less lines but he's like I can just do this, which I feel like is a rare demand for an actor. Like, hey, I need less lines.

But he's like, I can just do this with a look. I can do that with a look. I mean, you're talking about Nick, just like his energy and some of the shots of him listening. There is the reaction shot he gives when Gwyneth Paltrow tells him that she's pregnant. Yes.

Oh, yeah. That is astonishing. He's so upset about it, but he's doing his best to just be like, you know, poker faced about it. And like the little bit that comes out is so good. I love that. That's my favorite scene in the movie. It's a great scene. It is like a, you know, it's such a, in a lot lot of ways it's such like a because you talked about the

script being written in the late 80s like that version of new york it's such like a time stamp of that era when it's like like you know urban decay and like this is like the cities are dangerous and stay out of there and like her character is so yeah she's like friendless and isolated but just like the the thing that struck me that i that i didn't track when i was younger and i watched this i don't think i've seen this movie. I've seen it more than once, but I don't think I've seen it in 20 years. Watching it now is just the profound loneliness of everyone. Everyone is isolated. Even this married couple, they're together, but they're shown in separate spaces a lot.

The person she can confide in is her partner. Yeah, his partner. His grizzled new partner his new partner yeah doesn't have an emotional relationship with no they barely know each other trying to connect the two of them and in the process she realizes that she gets along with him

but I think that's such a key thing where like the poucher is so good in this but that character plays so well despite not having a ton of screen time and I think the secret key is like that's the character that's the analog for andrew kevin walker right that's the character he relates to most in this movie right like this isn't like paul schrader where paul schrader is like

riding taxi driver and it's like i kind of feel this way sometimes right andrew kevin walker is like i'm sort of a babe in the woods who moved to a big city because I want to have a career. And it's so scary. Right. And like the career ambition is like Brad Pitt's character. Like that's the thing that drove him that he's following. And then he's just terrified by this whole city around him. He's writing the script over a year. So like, yeah, Nick, as you said, by the time this movie comes out, it's coming out in a like New York that's being Giuliani.

But it's a remnant of a New York that to him was just incomprehensibly dark. We brought up Kevin Spacey and Giuliani. Is there anyone else we want to... Don't worry, I got a list. I'm racking through them. Were Gwen and Paltrow and Brad Pitt dating at this

point still? Yes. This is when they start dating, I believe. Oh, okay. You kind of feel it they met on the set well together they dated for three years they got engaged in 1996 and split in 97 and i can't remember when he gets with aniston but it's not that long after that i feel like no uh and does she go to Affleck after that, maybe? Because she had the Affleck relationship. For many years, yeah. So yes, Denzel famously turned down this movie and regrets it.

The other movie he regrets turning down? Mikey Clayton. Michael Clayton, which is amazing to think about him in that. Yes. I mean, I think that is like maybe the best Clooney performance of all time. I agree. But it is cool to think about Denzel as Michael Clayton. Clooney performance of all time.

But it is cool to think about Denzel as Michael Clayton. The other thing when I was reading about this movie is that it's such like a 90s thing that wasn't in my head today, but it's like, oh yeah, of course they would have thought about that, was that they were like, you know, older black detective, young white detective. People are just going to think it's Lethal Weapon. Which is like, this is so totally,

completely different from Lethal Weapon. But you can see them over-calculating the casting to that point which is like this is so totally completely different from lethal weapon but it like it no you can see them over calculating the casting to that point and finally being like i guess we'll do it anyway you know especially because pitt's kind of manic in this movie and you know morgan is too old for this shit yeah i mean he's retiring he's about to retire it's so weird that he became a movie star playing guys who are about to retire and then was like, I can do this for 20 more years. Like, you know, like that's what he did

after this. Like, it's true. Okay, you agree with me. No, no, no, I do. No, it's the thing of, yes, I think you and I find it particularly fascinating

when someone who is like a very established actor suddenly locks into their movie persona. Right. Their movie star persona and they get vehicles all of a you know right nowhere yeah and like late into a career right where it's just like oh that's the thing where if you plant him in that suddenly there's a handle

on and everyone understands right it's this kind of movie right right um because yes he he was just sort of like i think mr serious actor mr Serious Actor, Mr. Prestige. And then there's this like odd, you know, what would be late career for anyone else. That's really like his ascension to A-list status is just like this gentle but weary cop. I do like this line from Brad Pitt that, I just wanted to escape the cheese and I came to find out that David Fincher had a lactose intolerance as well. I like that. It's like Pitt trying to get beyond Legends of the Fall.

And Fincher talks a lot about like Pitt fucking saved him on this movie. moment that any time and they were so aligned in their view of what they wanted to get out of this movie that he would be losing an argument and Pitt would just place the one call and it would be settled immediately. I think Fincher had been fighting over for five months and his quote was like the power of being

blonde is astonishing. Right. Yeah. That's his. He's like he gives funny quote. Did you know the reason they wanted Ned Beatty? Because he looked like the composite drawing of the Zodiac Killer. That's right. That is the original. So that's how early

he's thinking about Zodiac. And Ned Beatty said, this is the most evil thing I've ever read. He wanted Michael Stipe briefly. Interesting. Height of R.E.M.'s success. I mean, Spacey in this movie is giving a very Stipe-like performance, I would argue.

Sure, he's bald. No, but his whole, like, weird Spacey energy, no pun intended, you know? And then, yes, they settle on Spacey and whatever. Then they get the runaround from New Line for a while. What? Spacey does his audition.

Yeah. Pitt and Fincher watch it. They go, holy shit. This guy seems totally innocent. Will never commit any crimes. This performance is amazing. He can hold his head high walking out of the courtroom. He will always be vindicated.

Oh, boy. Put this guy in front of a fireplace. Maybe get a sweater on. We all know there are no crimes in art. Uh-huh. In fact, now that you mention it, we never did see my death, did we? He said all of this.

His audition tape was just the original reading of Let Me Be Frank. And they said, what is this material? It's a spec I'm working on. I don't think it's quite ready. Keep it in the pocket for a rainy day, if you will. But Spacey was like, starting to rise, had shot already Swimming with Sharks,

Usual Suspects, Outbreak. None of them had come out. Right. But he had three big movies in the can. One indie film where he was like the co-lead and then two huge films where he was, you know, a mid-sized film where he was ensemble, a huge studio film where he was getting the end.

And so his quote had gone up, but he wasn't demonstrably a box office draw yet. Yeah. And so New Line didn't want to pay for him. Yeah. They cast someone else

who no one has been able to quite... No one knows who. They had someone else on deck. Figure out who it was. But they start filming with someone else trying to get Spacey. Yeah, he did 12 days.

Yes. Yeah. And then Pitt finds out. He said, what happened? Have we closed the deal on Spacey yet? Fincher says, no, they won't agree. Oh, no, Spacey did 12 days. Spacey's whole shoot was 12 days.

Right. I think that guy only filmed a day or two. Yeah, sure, sure. And I think it was mostly, maybe it was the foot chase stuff. It wasn't any of the big dialogue stuff. Right. Was it Stoltz? Did he do it to Stoltz again? the big dialogue stuff. Right. Was it Stoltz?

Did he do it to Stoltz again? Oh, my God. That would suck. Poor Stoltz. But yeah, no. Pitt was the one who got on the phone with New Alliance at a higher spacey.

Right. And then the deal was closed. He was on set two days later. And the rest of his career was perfect. Is the other actor in the... They did reshoots, right? The other actor's not? I think so.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, and I guess the helicopter shots at the end, they shot all that with doubles because they had to shoot that months later. Right. They wouldn't give Fincher the budget to do it originally. I didn't realize that that cop there in the helicopter was... What's his name?

John C. McGinley. Yeah, McGinley. Yeah. John C. McGinley. Yeah, McGinley. Yeah. John C. McGinley is in this. Arlie Ermey apparently hated David Fincher and said that he treats actors like puppets. What was his line? Like, if you hate acting, I recommend working with David Fincher. If you're not worth a shit at acting and you're not creative, then I recommend you go work with David Fincher.

He won't let you act even if you're a fucking good actor. Now, Arlie Ermey, I will say, is someone who seems a little intense. Salty? Yeah. Yeah. Just generally. A little salty, yeah. And it's interesting because, like,

he seems like someone who would never, like, be able to take direction. He's a goddamn drill sergeant. Yeah. But also, he worked with Stanley Kubrick, who I consider even more famously exacting. Well, that's what's wild about him being that critical of Fincher, but then also

it's like, he famously is the guy in Kubrick's oeuvre where he was like, do whatever the fuck you want. Right, you're actually allowed to go off, right? Yeah, this is just you. I'm giving you the space, right. He's good in this movie. He is good in this. I love seeing him as a police chief. And I was just gonna say

it's interesting because, you know, I watch the actor's commentary and that's the one that fincher's on or one of the ones that fincher's on um and he said like morgan freeman specifically talks about how like he like when fincher talked to him about the the role he didn't really give him any notes on characterization and he was just like talking about you know how he wanted to shoot it and he was just talking about lighting and blocking and he felt like like he was like oh okay he was just like talking about, you know, how he wanted to shoot it. And he was just talking about lighting and blocking. And he felt like, like he was like,

oh, okay. He's just kind of like, he, he knows that I'm going to take care of that element. So I wonder if he treated like, you know, he,

I wonder if the puppeting was more of how we treated individual cast members, but not everyone. I don't know. That may well be true. Yeah. I mean, here's pure conjecture on my part.

Great. Love it. Love pure conjecture. Yeah. I, cause I was pure conjecture on my part. Great. Love it. Love pure conjecture. Yeah. Because I was reading more quotes from Ernie talking about this, right? And he was just like, I came ready to do all this stuff, and he wouldn't let me do any of it. And he didn't trust me as an actor and whatever. You watch the opening credits of this movie, and it starts going like, Arlie Ernie, John C. McGinley, Richard Roundtree, right?

Ermey, John C. McGinley, Richard Roundtree, right? And I'm thinking like, man, I forgot this movie has a murderer's road. Just a stack deck of some of the greatest cinematic yellers in history. Right? Just some fucking screamy sons of bitches. And then you watch the movie

and the guys are all pretty muted. It's like he's taking these guys who you know can be really volatile. And he's keeping them all like a little bit domesticated. Sure. And I imagine R. Lee Ermey came in here and was like, I want to fucking act. Especially when he originally auditioned for John Doe, right? That he's like, I want to show my range.

Everyone knows me as the drill sergeant. I want to fucking give a dramatic showcase performance. And Fincher wisely was like, you got to be bottled. Because the most disarming thing is to watch Arlie Ermey, the drill sergeant, sit quietly behind a desk and sort of go like,

okay, now don't get too invested in this case, you know? Right. Like not really blow up. But maybe that was incredibly frustrating for him. I do like when he answers the phone. He's like, this isn't my desk

and then hangs up the phone. I think that's funny. But like that, that exact exchange, you could imagine Arlie or me playing in like the full J. Jonah Jameson to the nines,

screaming, slamming the phone down. He would have been a good J. Jonah Jameson. He's got the air. People, I think that was, that makes sense. Cameron maybe wanted to cast him as J.J.J.

Yeah. But yes, I think that's part of it. And it's that thing of like going back to Fincher's very strategic about what he casts actors for. You know? So someone like Pitt, it's like the fact that he wants to be taken seriously is the thing that's going to really come across on screen.

Versus casting someone like Arlie Army or Richard Roundtree and having them sit behind a desk and never blow up is him sort of playing with the tension of what you expect these types of guys to do. Same with Richard Roundtree, and having them sit behind a desk and never blow up is him sort of playing with the tension of what you expect these types of guys to do. Same with, yeah, Richard Roundtree, right. Just giving these dour press conferences. I love that this is set in a

non-real city where it's just raining all the time and everything sucks. It's like Blade Runner. I know Blade Runner is technically set in a city, right? Is it LA? It's LA. Yeah, but like... Their badges just say Metropolitan. Yeah, that it's just like, I know Blade Runner is technically set in a city, right? Is it LA? It's LA. Yeah. But, like, yeah, it is LA. But, like, um... Their badges just say Metropolitan.

Yeah, that it's just, like, you know, they just live in, like, USA. I've been watching the Saw movies, which obviously are hilariously indebted to Seven. Sims, I... That was my big thought about this, is how much I was... I forgot how much Saw stole. Saw is just, like... I shouldn't say stole. You know, Seven that's been run through the fucking,

you know, shit grinder or whatever. Not that I don't, they're kind of fun, but that's another one where you're like, where is this? Yeah. Like, what is this town where it's just like, yeah, there's like 1400 warehouses. This guy's just got door devices.

Everyone who lives here is either a victim or a cop. Like he's the most, like like and it's perfect you're just like yeah i don't know you know like whatever that society is degraded to this point that like saw can happen i had a question about not only the city but the timeline because you see that the the sloth victim was born in 1931 did Did you notice this? Okay. Okay. So that would make sense. And I'm like, was that guy supposed to be 60 years old? And then it didn't really attract to me. So I kind of like it kind of being an ambiguous time. I mean, this is also before iPhones, I guess.

Well, yeah. Okay. So that's a big thing. Whenever it was set, it's like, it feels like it's supposed to be a contemporary 90s movie. it's like it feels like it's supposed to be a contemporary 90s movie but but regardless like this is like towards the end of when a movie that's set in a contemporary time would be fully pre-internet and that's part of what i love about like loved about re-watching this and why i like this movie more is like there's no fucking there's no there's no cell phone there's no cell phone there's no like like you know there's a little bit of a of some sort of data search but it's

through like an fbi third party they're still going to the physical fucking library to pull books off of shelves um all that's all that shoe leather plays so much so much better yes the data search is mark boone jr coming back with a manila envelope right right which is sorry it's a little greasy mark boone jr an actor that david once referred to as looking like he sleeps in pizza. He sleeps under a pizza. He steals a slice of pizza in this movie. He does. I guess there's also the fingerprint analysis, but that's like a very crude, like, you know, whatever.

Yeah, that's 100 years old at this point. Yeah, exactly. You know, yeah. They also all dress like 40s noir detectives. Yes, definitely. I mean, Somerset's little hat. Right. And Pitt's like suit, you know, his...

Yeah, they're very... Yes, it's all very noir-y. Arlie Ermey's got the, you know, vest. Which is like an area where... Fincher's control of style and stylization is really important for this movie because I think a lot of directors would have tried to set it in a more realistic city.

Sure. Whether or not they named it. And you kind of need that heightening of like, no, this takes place in like just kind of hell. Yeah. Right. And I don't even think that it was a thing that took place in like the 80s or the 50s rather.

I'm just saying it just feels like an alt universe, which I love. Fincher is actually an unreliable narrator in a way because he will often downplay, I think, his own artistry. He says the rain thing was, we had 55 days with Pitt. He was going to do 12 Monkeys right after this movie. So we had to match everything. And it was raining when we started doing the movie. And so we were just like, it's always going to do 12 Monkeys right after this movie. So we had to match everything. And it was raining

when we started doing the movie. And so we were just like, it's always going to be raining. But then he says, but also I kind of wanted to make it not feel like LA because it's always sunny. So I think it was an artistic choice by him. But he likes to be like, it's practical. And it feels intentional that

when it's not raining is the end of the movie. Is John Doe turning the tables? Yes, he's out in the desert. He also says, he's like, if I could have put rain units in that, I would have. He was like, that was logistical. I had no... Right, hard to do that. Sometimes he does make things sound like...

I think he often is like self-deprecating in a way. Right, yeah. That's the other wild thing. Right, Pitt had pre-committed to 12 Monkeys and Fincher was sort of prepping this movie on like a five-month schedule out from production.

Right. And then when Fincher becomes interested, they're like, you can, or when Pitt becomes interested rather, they were like,

you can get Pitt if you're ready to film in eight weeks. And he did it. They just went like rocket speed on this movie. Right. And then he has this moment,

apparently the AD, not the AD you know, Mitch, Michael Khan, a different AD. Who was Bob Wagner, by the way. I confirmed it. That was Bob Wagner. Bob Wagner, who has worked on Social Network, I think, and many other Fincher films.

But Michael Khan says, like once they started production, he like went up to Fincher and said, look, we're here. We're doing it. We're shooting a movie. There's Morgan Freeman. There's Brad Pitt. Isn't this amazing? And Fincher's like, no, it's awful. And he's like, why is it awful? And he said, because now I have to

get what's in my head out to all of you Cretans. Do you not think that's funny? No, I think that's very funny. I just read it already. You're right. You already read it. That's why you shouldn't read the dossier, because I can't surprise you. Maybe you shouldn't read the dossier. Cause I can't surprise you. You shouldn't read the dossier. I,

I just, I mean, you can do the dossier. Think about psychologically where Fincher is at this point where I think he knows, like if I fuck this up, I'm done. Right. That was my question to you guys.

If this movie doesn't work, is it, is it over for this guy? I mean, like also in the world where, you know, like if you have two flops right at this point you're are you just but i think particularly for a guy who's like

difficult it's seen as difficult and strong-headed and exacting or whatever if like twice the movie doesn't turn out well even if it's a little bit successful and the reputation is like he was too stubborn he's too dark you know there's a middle version though because like there's obviously the movie flops his career is toast yeah this movie did about as well as it possibly could it did so incredibly well yes there's a version of this movie that makes like 60 70 million dollars domestic yeah and his scene is like yeah that was a mild hit and it was a dark movie yeah and he probably gets to make like dark mid-, mid-budgety movies. He stays at this site. Yeah, like, it's like, yeah, okay, all right, Finchie. But now that's your lane.

Yes. And it's not, I mean, that is his lane, in a way. It's not like it's, but, like, I feel like he gets much more power because of how well this movie did. What's the blank check thing we talked about where it's like,

when a guy basically becomes a genre, right? Right. And Hollywood is so perplexed by the success of their movie that on paper shouldn't have been a hit. Yeah. And the success has to be

chalked up so largely to the sensibility of the filmmaker that they were like, do your thing. Yeah. We now think your thing is popular.

Yeah. We don't even know what it is. Right. We can't define it. In your parlance, is this his guarantor? This movie? This is his guarantor this is this is absolutely and then the only weird thing is that he fight club is him cashing the check yeah he just makes

the game in between right because he kind of wants to i guess like he's not really cashing the check no no like he probably could have made the game i mean and he was working on setting up the game the same time he was working i was gonna say but the universe you're saying where this movie does okay, he could have made the game. He probably could have made the game. That's like the exact lateral move he could have done. And he still just does it, I think, to do it. And I love that movie. But the Fight Club is him more being like, okay, guys, I know this seems impossible, but I made Seven.

Yeah. So, like, I can make this too. Yes. Right? Because Fight Club is impossible. Like, that script does not read like a movie that's going to seven. Yeah. So like, I can make this too. Yes. Right? Because Fight Club is impossible. Like, that script does not read like a movie that's going to work.

No. We should start digging into the plot. Plot of seven. Okay, so there's a guy doing seven murder. Seven murders. Seven murders. Guys,

thank you for being here. Yeah, Doughboys is the podcast. You know, we talk about Chain Restaurant. Oh, yeah. I think we covered all of it,

right? Yeah, so, well, I mean, it's not like, it's a plotty movie in a way, but every time I watch it, I'm like, yeah, it kind of moves pretty quickly. Yeah.

Like, the murders do not dribble out here. Like, you know, there's like three of them are basically done in the first 20 minutes. I had forgotten, because the opening credits of this movie are so infamous. That's like something that was burned into my brain as a kid. And I remembered it being the cold open. Like I remember being New Line logo and then straight into this tone style setting.

Yes. It's sort of his mission statement on the movie. I mean, he said that it's like, I wanted to make the opening credits really extreme to prep the audience for how far the movie could possibly go. The thing I forgot is that you have the cold open of Freeman before the credits. Yeah. Which is just sort of the table setting of this guy's sort of like.

He's weary. He lives in the worst city in the world. And he sees the worst people. And this was supposed to be longer, too, right? It was like he went to like he was going to go to his retirement home and then he was going to take a train into the city. Like there was like a longer thing and they simplified it to just like he's at a random crime

scene. If I was one week from retirement, I would not take up the seven murders case. They keep on telling him not to. Early Army tells him not to. I know. I wouldn't. Well, Nurse though thinks it's just one. They start with one. He thinks he's in a movie called One.

Yeah. And that's fine. This is the infamous One Murderer. He killed one person! Sick fuck! Put me at him! I'm like, ah! Yes.

The opening of the movie is just a random murder, right? That we open on. Yes, it's correct. It's not one of the seven. And it's just selling this idea of like, I just think his characterization is so precise in this of like, he's so run down and he's so weary. But nine out of 10 versions of this guy would also be like cynical, kind of grizzled in a different way. Like, you can't shock me with anything. This guy still has his humanity, right?

He can still be shocked by things. There's the key moment when he sees the kids drawing on the fridge. And he says, did the kid witness the murder? And they go, what the fuck? That's none of your business. That doesn't matter. Your job is to solve the crime. Don't worry about the kid.

But there's something in this guy who has sacrificed his entire life to being a detective, right? Who, like, basically sabotaged the one

meaningful romantic relationship he ever had in his life, has truly been married to his career. Right. There's something in this guy that's still going like, oh, fuck,

is this kid gonna get fucked up? Is that the crime I need to think about now? Right. Is the long tail of this kid's psychology over the next 50 years whether or not he was present? And everyone's saying, like, just do your job. And even when he's this close to the exit, there's something kind of holistic in his worldview. I mean, it's the final quote. Why? Because of like, he doesn't have any faith in the world but he still wants to fight for it he still wants to try to be doing what he can to make the world a little less evil yeah he's kind of looking forward in the sense of like did i did what i do have any impact on

anything you know right because he has nothing to retire to right he steps down it's not like well now i get to enjoy growing old around my grandkids right he's like now i'm gonna retire and i'm just gonna stare at a wall for the rest of my life and wonder whether i made any difference and i go to sleep with a fucking metronome jesus right because basically like i just imagine it's i i need something to calm my brain down he loved that metronome i think you gotta go to a metronome clinic. You think he's addicted to the gnome? Mitch, one million comedy points.

I'm sorry for not laughing. I was just really trying to take that joke in deep into my bones. I do like the idea of someone being like, can I set you up with somebody? He's like, nah, I got Nomi here. She just ticks away. That's all I need. My only note, I found it's kind of a missed opportunity

that Metrium doesn't talk. Yeah, right. Hey, Somerset, how you doing? Good day today? How's that Mills guy? Is he going to work out? Think he's got any wrath in him? Right?

Wrath. That's the way to do it. And then also at the end, he doesn't even get to retire with the metronome. Destroys it, too. I know. That's brutal, actually. That's one of the most brutal deaths in the film. Yeah, it's the worst.

Why did you hurt me? I have a question for you guys about the opening before we go just any further, because I wanted to ask you this. Yes. At least when I purchased this movie on iTunes and I pushed play, it just goes right into the movie and then the opening credits. That's not normal, right? Like, I didn't see any studio logos or anything.

Oh, that's weird. Yeah. Is it just me? I watched it on Blu-ray and it had that beautiful new line clapboard. Yeah, the old 90s new line. Not the 80s one that I love as well, but that looks like

you're about to watch pornography. Am I fucking this up? I swear to God, I think that that was the case. I don't know. I'm going to look up my name right now. I watched the blue as well. Genius bar? You can fucking debug your iPad. You know what? I do think Blank Check is the genius bar wow

Hayes it's very nice a couple of geniuses I think I was just thinking about watching this right the framing of this

being like New Line trying to level up and be like we're going to be a more legitimate serious studio where they've been seen as sort of

a tiny studio or a giant independent company right have they already been acquired as sort of a tiny studio or a giant independent company. Right. Have they already been acquired by Warner Brothers at the time of this movie? Let's find out

when the exact timeline is here. Obviously, New Line Cinema's acquisition is in 1994. Okay. So, right before this. They just happened. But they started out

as like a distributor for like cult movies and college campuses and stuff like that. And they were always called the house that Freddie built because Nightmare on Elm Street was like their big breakthrough. And they would take a lot of stuff that the studios thought was beneath them. Ninja Turtles. You can't make a movie about Ninja Turtles.

And then that was the most successful independent film ever made at that point in time. All this sort of stuff. And this is them trying to level up, right? Which they do with wild success. Yes. This movie is like huge for them. Absolutely. And then like the run after this, right? You have

like Rush Hour, Austin Powers, Boogie Nights, American History X. Yeah. This combination of like huge 94 is their carry year where they have the mask and Dumb and Dumber. But they're making

some of the biggest comedies of the 90s. Yep. Rush Hour and Bowers. Yeah. And starting franchises. Yeah. Oscar-y movies. Right? So their 90s level up is like insane. Right. Then they make Lord of the Rings. Then they make Lord of the Rings. Then they do this gambit where everyone's like

if you fuck this up, your studio's going under. They also did Elf. Huge. I don't know what else. That's about it. Because it's fucking Golden Compass brings it all to a crashing halt. So, like, the Lord of the Rings thing pays off better than anyone could have imagined.

They're, like, one of the most successful film series ever. They win Best Picture for the third one. And then people are like, you know what? We were all wrong. New Line really proved themselves. Right. the most successful film series ever they win best picture for the third one and the people were like you know what we were all wrong new line really proved themselves right and they're like great we're gonna do it again golden compass golden compass comes out and they're like we're shutting you down you're folded into warner brothers we've just floored it into a wall over yeah it's a weird company i don't know still exists of course in its way i think even freddy himself would be i think the seven murders are

messed up wouldn't you too twisted for me bitch you you think freddy would be scandalized if they sent him the script for seven maybe i would never attach myself to something like this disgusting now this is a nightmare bitch but i'll attach you to it and then he stabs the claws through the script to the guy uh speaking of of new line film history i looked up the man who played uh gluttony okay yes oh yeah i love this yes did you you guys found this too no i i just i just when i looked him up i saw that he was a real estate guy that's all i saw about it but i don don't even know. So he wrote the songs for this Mr. T TV special that I was obsessed with

and I was like, be somebody or be somebody's fool. Oh, yeah. I used to read that on VHS. Yes, an incredible special. So he wrote the titular song for that. He has like an odd kind of journeyman career.

This was his first feature film credit. Oh, my God. He has. I just found the thing I think you're about to bring up. I'm just now selling this to Mitch because Mitch, you're the one who doesn't know. Speaking of the history of New Line Cinema,

he has one other theatrical film credit after this, Mitch. He is the on-set body double for Fat Bastard in The Spy Who Shagged Me. Oh, my God. Yes, yes. He was the stand-in so basically whenever fat bastards in a scene with one of the other mike myers characters right oh my god he played that he

played film's biggest fat bastards the biggest the saddest bastard of the phone would ring he'd pick it up and he'd be like do you you want another Mr. T song? And they're like, no, we have a role for you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. David, in your impression, the year is 1997, 1998. He called, ring, ring, and before he even says hello, he just says, what is it? You guys want another

Mr. T song? It's been over a decade since he wrote a Mr. T song and he's just hoping that's what they're asking for. Mr. T's still around. Yeah, maybe they're going gonna do a follow-up. They just want him to play a fat bastard. And I'm gonna slide right into that spot now. Is the guy big? I thought,

because there's a lot of prosthetics, right? I think he's definitely wearing a lot of makeup. He was 380 at the time of filming. Pretty big. There's an Entertainment Weekly article that's really good about the breakout stars of Seven. And it's talking to the seven

actors who play the corpses. Okay, that's pretty fun. That's awesome. That's good. And they all give little, like, kind of capsule quotes and funny things. Well, it's not Seven because there's not seven corpses in this movie. There's five. You're right. They talk to the five. And they say, we won't talk about the other two because those are spoilers.

But he said he was 380 on set and they added 300 pounds visually oh wow in prosthetics to try to make him closer to 700 sure they covered him in real cockroaches that's that i read right they put stuffing in his ears and mouth so the cockroaches wouldn't uh crawl into his orifice orifices they did crawl into his orifices. They did crawl into his underwear. Oh, good. Great. And who knows what happened from there.

And then they put a Doughboys poster on the wall and then it was good to go. Fincher said he felt so bad for the guy for how bad he made him look and how much he punished him on screen. Right. That it was as a mitzvah. Uh-huh.

He said, let's give the guy a really big hog in the autopsy scene. Oh, there you go. That's great. So that was like an apology of like, this is going to help this guy's reputation. It's when I lost my connection to the character.

Everything else for me, I was like, okay. You're watching, you're like, this is the hero of the picture. It's weird he's not talking much. He shall certainly come back to life. Okay, so. All right. Gluttony is the first death, right?

We're discussing this in order, I guess. Right. Somerset and Mills get together. It's like, hey, you know, someone had to eat too much. Let's go check it out. And that's murder number one. And gluttony is written on the wall. Freeman almost immediately is like,

can you explain to me why the fuck you wanted to be transferred here? Right, right. Like, why would you want to work here? Right. But it's the pit thing. He's got the energy of a guy who's just like, let me be a movie star.

This is my big shot. It's pretty early that they have that sequence where they're talking about if they've ever fired their guns right in the car oh yeah that's pretty that's a really good scene that's rad where pit telling the story the whole time you're like you're putting too much mustard on this mills like

because somerset saying like i've never fired my gun and i've only drawn it thrice yeah and like you need to never had to shoot it you're like damn that's crazy that's so cool and you're thinking about that and then mills is like yeah you know i had to fire this guy You're like, damn, that's crazy. That's so cool. And you're thinking about that. And then Mills is like, yeah, you know, I had to fire this guy unloaded on us, shot someone in the arm, you know. And he's so nervy and manic.

And you're just like, you know, not really buying it from him. You know, you believe the story. It also ties in the bleakness of just like when he's telling the story of the guy he worked with who got shot and he can't remember his name. Like, how the fuck is that guy's name? You know, it's just like. Right. Yeah, dude got shot and he can't remember his name. He's like, who the fuck is that guy's name? You know, it's just like, right. Yeah.

Dude got shot in the arm and bled out. And he's, and he's just like, he's just trying to remember it like a detail in a random anecdote. Did Pitt kill the, the, the perpetrator and perpetrator?

Did he, did he kill the, the, the, the suspect or whatever in that situation? He didn't because I think if he did, he would have fired. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. He just opened fire. the way i i i did do some fact checking myself uh my itunes version does open with a new line logo and i believe that the bob mack i looked up is just a real estate guy and not related to the actor at all so anyways so you probably shouldn't have cold called him then right right? And said like, are you gluttony? No, but yes, that scene,

what you're saying, it has the energy of like, Mills is so excited to tell the story because he thinks it will make him look legit to this older cop. Yeah. That he's not clocking

as Somerset tells his story, that the cooler thing is having to never have fired her gun. He's like, that's the ultimate flex on Somerset's part. And he's not even flexing. That's why it's such a good flex.

He's just like, oh yeah, funny thing about me. And Mills basically isn't listening because he's prepping his monologue he's about to deliver in his head. He's asking that question to tell that story. He has the nervous energy, and I don't even know if he's doing that question to right to to tell that it's great he has the nervous energy and i don't even know if he's doing it but is he like turning around in the car is he like he's like yeah somerset's sitting behind him that's what it is yeah and

pitt's in front who's driving who's driving i think he's driving yeah um the next the next victim is greeded. Uh-huh. Which, that's pretty short, I feel like, because that leads them right to Sloth. Like, Greed is just that sort of boardroom. They don't see gluttony written until later. Right. Greed is the first time they're seeing the word put there.

Right. It's in that big fancy office. Greed on the carpet. But Somerset basically immediately is just like, pound of flesh. This is not the energy of someone who, of one random killing. Right.

Because first of all, everyone's going like, the guy's fat. He probably ate himself to death. His heart collapsed, whatever. There's, we're not sure this is a homicide.

Right. Somerset's like, there's something intentional happening here. And not only that, he basically recognizes the signature of an artist. Yes.

Right. All right. This is impressive. Right. And then he just feels like greed is someone's working in a style.

Right. And then there's a pattern. The sloth murder. Well, now you're going very fast. No, it goes right to that. That's what I'm saying. The first three are really fast.

Right, because there's the autopsy scene where we see his big old hog, and they also have pieces of plastic that are pulled from his intestine, right? Right, Reggie Caffey doing a great job there. The best. He's great. And that leads Somerset back to Gluttony.

I can't remember what sequencing. I think this is after they find the greed body where he goes, he ends up back at gluttony. Yeah. At gluttony's apartment. Right. Doing the second round. The plastic was from the floor.

Yeah. Where the dresser had basically been dragged. Yeah. The fridge. The fridge. Yeah. The fridge. Yes.

But like that kind of thing of like the plastic was fed to him. Like he's clearly Somerset recognizes that he's dealing with someone who knows the way a good detective is going to process the case. Yeah. Right. It's such a weird like puzzle kind of escape room logic of like, well, I'm leaving the I'm feeding the plastic to him. So you find it and then try to trace where the plastic came from, which means this was dragged and put back. That's where gluttony was written.

Does the dinner... There's like the letter on the wall too, right? Yes. The dinner is after Sloth. Okay, that was my question. No, it's like, because I feel like it's like once they go to Sloth, that's when they're like, okay. This is a franchise. This guy's gonna do... Right. This is, we now understand this concept. Som when they're like okay this is a franchise this guy's gonna do right this is

we now understand this concept somerset's like this is the seven deadly sins uh and the sloth sequence is just so nasty it's nasty it's nasty nasty it's nasty fucking nasty yeah that sequence where uh somerset is explaining the pattern, right? And laying it all out and being like, these are three sins. This guy's going to do it four more times. There's a really good Every Fame painting. Every Fame painting, yeah.

Yes. Video from years and years ago about the way Fincher does dialogue scenes and how he constructs his coverage to tell you who's winning a scene, that there's never sort of like meaningless coverage.

And you do watch the evolution of all the scenes, especially the scenes with Arlie Ermey and the two of them. And he really breaks down how there's an arc to basically Mills trying to enter himself into those conversations. Right, right, right.

That first one is really Ernie and Freeman talking to each other. And Pitt's in the background. The coverage is done from in between Ernie and Freeman. And Pitt's like struggling to get in there. Right. And as the movie goes on, the whole thing kind of shifts to them finally becoming equals and partners. Right. It's sort of after the dinner that they are more of a unit and before then it's you

know pitt's also just annoying in all the crime scenes yes he's got this like irritating kind of know-it-all attitude even though it's like none of these crime scenes are ones you'd walk in and be like classic guy you know gluttony situation this happens all, classic guy, you know, gluttony situation. This happens all the time. You know, it's like, yeah, but he has that attitude. And what leads him to sloth is another what you're saying earlier, Griffin. It's like the more of the clue, the breadcrumb trails he's left for them, which is like, you know, this is another thing that a kid told me about, which is like they used a severed hand to like put a fucking handprint on the wall. And then like, you know, a bit. But it's behind the painting. and the wife is the widow right the the lore of like all of

the murders i feel like like that was a thing that was talked about so much between my friends and i and like what it meant when what each sin meant and like why they were tortured the way they were and like i remember like breaking down sloth it's like sloth is like you're lazy or whatever and then like they took a picture of the guy each day like you heard so much of that shit on the playground it's the hand he used to jack off with you jack off the seven man's gonna get you that was like that was that was going around it's like bloody mary yeah now sloth he's also like a drug dealer and a pedophile right that's what they say yeah like but acquitted by the way

I was making a fucking spacey joke well sure I mean you didn't have to say you were making a spacey joke but now we have to once again say that anything about

him is alleged I guess I'm just worried he's gonna sue us you're worried he's gonna sue you that man is very online have you seen his YouTube account?

I'm just like, getting sued by him would be like a spa day. And let me tell you. That's the best case scenario. The guy's winning cases, too, for whatever reason. This guy's got fucking Clarence Darrow on the case. You know, whoever. And also, Kevin Spacey has played Clarence Darrow in a movie. It's a real shame that Spacey didn't represent himself

in court. That would have been the performance of a lifetime. Yes, Jesus Christ. Alright, look. Here's what I want to say. You go ahead. To Weiger's point. Okay. We're building off each other here. Yeah. It's that thing of like what John Doe gets to later in the film of like he's got this self-aggrandizing thing of just like I'm the best serial killer of all time. Like, this is going to be the Wikipedia entry that everyone reads for centuries, right?

The intentionality of what I did, where he's just like getting off on the cat and mouse game part of it. So it's like they go and speak to the wife of greed. She looks at the photos of the crime scene. She notices that the painting in the background is upside down. Right. It's the thing I don't remember if it's before this or after this, when like Freeman is sort of trying to train Pitt. And he says, like, you have to find the one detail that no one else would pick up on. Yes. Right. That's always the thing that's going to help you crack the case is the one detail that feels like it doesn't matter that everyone else

would miss. Right. And the painting is such a perfect example. Why is the painting upside down? That's so bizarre. That can't be for no reason. And then that great scene of them going and being like, well, here, we're going to solve the mystery. Take the painting off the wall. Fuck. Nothing. Oh, the wrapping in the back of the painting. If we cut it open, there'll be the answer. Fuck.

Nothing. And like, Pitt's ready to give up. And Freeman's like, there's no way it doesn't mean something. Yeah. They just have to keep on hitting it until like, right, the fingerprints show up.

And even then it's not a clear clue, but they know like something's leading them to this painting. Right. And the painting's going to lead them to the next thing. I love that detail that, that space,

the seven killer, like on the back of the of the painting he changed he like changed the screws so that it would hang up in the in the correct way yeah yeah that's great right this this guy's messing with screws he's truly depraved i think you might have a screw loose this movie hey it's like many a noir and like the batman which is like you know batman version of this movie i had not seen this movie since seeing the batman right and it is absolutely absurd i had forgotten just how indebted the batman is to highly indebted uh the fucking handwriting to much of fincher but mostly this yes mostly this i feel like

morgan freeman would have figured out who the Riddler was, like, almost instantly. Yes. Yeah, Jeffrey Wright really does get kind of screwed over. But both movies are, both this and The Batman are about, they are detectives, and they are figuring clues out, but they are being led on a path.

This is the thing I strongly dislike about The Batman. Sure. A movie we've already devoted an entire Patreon episode to. Right. A movie I love on vibes. Good vibes, sure. And I think the fundamental failing of that movie is it's three hours long and he's a terrible detective.

Yes. Right, yeah. Because the audience should not, like, the ideal is the audience should not be get ahead of it. Like and and and even this way, like I noticed in this scene and I don't know how intentional this was. It feels like it's intentional, but like the way that that that that shot that scene is shot where they're pulling the picture off the wall the whole time, it's framed where there's another painting in the background. And it's kind of like a visual red herring.

I feel like for the viewer, it's kind of like a misdirect of like, oh, maybe that's the maybe they're investigating the wrong painting, but it's not that like it's like this film, I think, is so good at at at parceling out information in such a way where you don't ever anticipate what the next move is. And then the other thing it does and just to skip ahead a little bit. But one thing I love about the script is that they break his fucking plan because of, because of, you know, a Somerset's inside of like, we can, we can see which books he checked out. We can find out who this guy is and they go to his apartment and now they

interrupt his fucking trail of breadcrumbs that he set up. And that drives him like almost mad. Yeah. I love that. I, I also think that the Riddler is a bad, as bad as Batman is as a detective, the Riddler is a bad serial killer in the Batman.

Like, his clues are pretty easy. I actually like the Riddler, and I think he has some interesting ideas. I don't know if you guys heard him on Rogan. No, but he actually makes some interesting points. No, I just feel like that's a movie where I'm an idiot and I feel an hour ahead of Batman, whereas this is a movie where even re-watching it, I struggle to remember, like, right, how do they figure that out? Sure. And it's a movie that really does actually impress you in watching the investigative skills of its characters. I mean, this movie is also an hour shorter than Batman, and that is my main note, as is yours, about the Batman, which is is I wouldn't think about it as hard if it wasn't so goddamn long.

Yes. Like, you know. But I also think, like, the Riddler in Batman, what's his ideology? He wants to expose corruption, I suppose. But he's really crazy. He hates nepo babies. He hates a nepo baby. Yeah.

He wrote the New York Magazine article. Like, John Doe, obviously... All right. So, the gluttony guy, he's being punished for his gluttony. Fine. The greed guy is rich. The sloth guy is the one where it actually doesn't... There's no poeticism to it.

He's a bad person who's been given a horrible punishment, but they don't really seem to interact, right? Like, he's not slothful he's a drug addict right like is that a part yeah that's the argument the guy spends a lot of time in bed zonked out on right on drugs but on the wacky jesus christ what yeah oh i'm coming around this guy's so whipped out of his mind on reefer they make it clear that he's a pothead. He likes the wacky tabacking, sure. He's ODing on pot left and right.

I wonder how long it would take me to be upset if the seven killer tried to get me for sloth. If I was just like, he tied me to a bed I'm like, alright, I think I'd just be fine with it for a while. Also, you're like, also that sin? Alright. Okay.

I imagine John Doe breaking into your house and you being like, if we can relocate this to Quincy, I'm down. Right, right. I just don't want to do it in LA. I feel like he'd be hard-pressed to figure out which sin to get me for. Well, also, he'd have a heart attack before he made it up all your stairs, Mitch. Let's be clear. The guy's in okay shape, but there are only so many flights a man can walk up before his heart gives out. He comes in and you've got a plate of spaghetti you're already eating.

I'm passed out in the spaghetti. Oh, shit. By the way, the sloth. We got a true alien chestburster moment. Oh, yeah. The sloth. They didn't tell him chestburster moment. Oh, yeah. The sloth that he didn't, they didn't tell him that he was going to have a reaction. I didn't know that. Yeah.

Which is cool. It's such a good jump scare in that it's not accompanied by any music or sting. Like, you know, it's just him being alive. You're like, this is a skeleton. Yes. Like, this is a dead person yeah and so it's it's you know it's it still gets

me to this day and it comes alive in like the like just a way where it's just like it's like not even like a it is kind of a jump scare of course but it's not like it's just a man gasping for breath McGinley John C. McGinley is a very well-established

character actor at this point in time. He's got very high billing on this movie. His name's on the poster and everything. Pretty hot year for him. Isn't this Office Space?

Yeah. Oh, is that 95? No, no, no. Office Space is 99. Oh, it's later. Office Space is late. He was always hot. He was always hot.

He was always hot. But it's one of those fascinating performances where you're like, oh, he's like fifth build. He's a really well-established guy. You rarely see his face in this movie. He's in a lot of scenes and you forget that he's in them.

You forget like, oh, it's still, they make him sort of the main SWAT guy anytime there's a SWAT team. Right. But the nature of the role is that he's usually in very frantic scenes, holding a gun in front of his face, wearing a mask, or like in quickly cut sequences where you're never really seeing him, where you're like, this guy was on set a lot for a performance that a lot of people could watch and not ever realize

that was him. Yeah. He's in The Rock the year after. And he's in, like he did a lot of this around now. A lot of like guys with machine guns. Yeah. Before I feel like

office space moves him into the, you know, boss territory. There's the infamous story that when they wrote the pilot script for Scrubs, his character

in the script said, think a John C. McGinley type. Right, right, right, right. And a bunch of John C. McGinley's friends reached out to him and they were like, hey, so are you doing this or what? And he was like, what do you mean? They're like, I. And a bunch of John C. McGinley's friends reached out to him and they were like, hey, so are you doing this or what?

Right. And he was like, what do you mean? They're like, I got sent a breakdown to read for this thing and the script, it says a John C. McGinley type. So I'm just, before I go in for it, I assume you passed? And he was like, no,

no one fucking got me an appointment for this. Wow. Casting didn't want to see him. They do that to actors all the time, like actors who have been broken through. And they're like, this type. And it's like, just hire that person. Hire the fucking person the time. Like actors who have been through and they're like this type. And it's like, just hire that person.

Hire the fucking person. He's available. Right. And he was like, I basically had to beg to get a read. It's also insane to me that he is a gun guy early on. Cause I just don't even think of him. Was he like a former military man or something?

I don't understand why he is like put in these military roles or like this in the rock. And platoon too. Yeah. Yeah. He's a big intense guy. I think that's just it. He early on was playing that kind of stuff. And that's what he starts being cast as.

But no, he went to Syracuse University and then Tisch, the New York University School of the Arts, Griffin. I'm familiar. They're not the military. They are familiar. They're not the military. They are not. They're not associated with the U.S. military in any way. Then I know. It's harder. It's harder than the tour.

Of course. It's a more difficult boot camp. Yes. But yeah, like, Platoon is kind of his first major role. And then, yeah. Like, he's in a lot of Oliver Stone movies. He's in Point Break. He's so good in Point Break.

Oh, fuck. He's in point break. He's so good. Oh fuck. He's, he's a special, right? Yeah. Griff, have you ever heard that they're looking, they're looking for a Griffin Newman type and,

and not have the audition for it or like, I'm sure it's happened. You know what has happened? Uh, I've been sent like a look book where my picture is used. That's, That's wild. You know, when like people are doing like very low budget things

or short films or whatever, they don't have previous work to show. So they put together like a 20 page, like here are images of what I want to look like. And then they'll have these sort of character breakdowns where they use photos

of different actors and movies that are sort of a similar type. And I've gotten sent those sometimes for like things where they're interested in me. And sometimes other people going up for them in the, in the same way they're like, did you ever, have you had that happen,

Mitch? I heard that for this movie, for gluttony, they said Mike Mitchell type, but I, and you were like 13. I know. I mean,

that's, I'm like, Jesus, they really did their research on me. Figured out 13-year-old me was a good type for gluttony. Think Mike Mitchell in 25 years. I've heard things like that before where people like – they said they wanted a U-type, but I never –

I'm not sure how valid that was. And also probably much smaller projects. When people have sent me like the lookbook things and my faces included, sometimes I don't even think like, oh, this person who put this together is a fan of something I did. I feel like they just Googled like cuck with glasses. And they grabbed the first five. I'm like, I don't take this as any compliment.

I'm like, maybe this is just, it's a cheap image to license. Handsome man with glasses. Shut the fuck up. What were you going to say? Were you going to make fun of me? No, I wasn't going to make fun of you. I was going to say the thing that I remember

where you were part of a tableau unexpectedly was something someone sent me, which was someone had put together like an Instagram story that was like the hottest big men of all time. And it was like, in the background, I was like, I need a big boy. It was like the hottest big men of all time and it was like in the back I was like I need a big boy it was like that song was playing and like it was just you know I was going through a bunch of different like famous actors and then it gets to you

and I was like oh I felt very proud of you which is looking good which also is insane that they got to me in that the big actors of all time. How long is that song? This is like 45 minutes into it. Okay. I want to talk about the dinner scene. Yes. So the next scene is the dinner scene. Do you like that they live underneath the railroad? I like all the details.

It's so funny. It's fucking great. It's the funniest part. I think it is like at this point in the movie, it's like this is the z is like at this point in the movie, it's like, this is the wet, the zaniest thing that happens in the movie is their house. Like truly shaking, like crazy.

I think this is the true artist's pre of this screenplay, right? The sequel or secret artistry of like eight. The fact as, as I was saying, Andrew Kevin Walker, I think relates to the powder character more than anyone else makes her not feel like a plot functionary,

right? Right. Where it's like this character exists for the sake of the reversal, right? Not the reversal, the twist at the end. Yeah. Yeah. And it'd be so easy in most versions of this film to the moment this

character is introduced, go like, she's fucking dead meat. There's no reason she's included. Why are we meeting this character? Right, right, right.

That feeling in thrillers like this, where it's really tough to introduce a character and not have them feel like there's a target on their head from the beginning otherwise why are we even spending any time with them right and these these scenes are so well written and charming and have such a weird level of like character to them between the apartment between the way she calls at the office, asks Pitt to hand the phone to Somerset. Somerset accepts

the supper invitation, you know, where you're just like, maybe this is just they needed comic relief. Maybe this is just like a little glimpse of light. It doesn't make you feel

like she's a target because she's so much more realized and specific than most of these things are. And then even just down to the apartment where they say the thing about like, every time we came to look at the apartment, they would only let

us see it for five minutes at a time. It's such a funny detail. Right, because it also serves as like characterization, you know, and it like kind of informs like Pitt's character as like a human being. And so like if you're just watching this movie cold, and I do think that honestly this movie plays better

watching it a second time. I think this is one of those those twist movies that like just knowing everything going in it just all that stuff hits more with more intensity. But like it. Yeah. To your exact point. It's like it that just seems like it's serving as like, you know, as like characterization. You don't. It's how it's how well structured is like you aren't getting ahead

and being like okay she's going to be the last victim you aren't already anticipating i do such a good job of balancing that with her just the her like her screen time and what her character is and and i would love i would love to see this movie without in my mind i've always known that her head was in the box forever even probably from the playground i know what you mean it's hard to remember not knowing. I definitely did not know that the first time I saw it. See, I don't know. I think I probably,

I don't know a world where I didn't know. I maybe didn't the first time I watched it, but I don't, I think that I did, but I would love, I would love to have watched this as an adult, not knowing it. And if I would be surprised by it,

I think I would. I think that it's a surprising ending. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, just especially, it's I think I would. I think that it's a surprising ending. Yeah, for sure. Well, just especially... It's a bit of a surprise. Especially for one character. The amount of energy they put into making her feel like a real

person, the longer that goes on, the more you think, well, they couldn't possibly decapitate her and put it in a box. You know, where you're like, that speaks to the fundamental darkness of the script that everyone reacted to so strongly. I'm just like, you can't do that. You can do that. Jason Voorhees can do that to a character who has been on screen for only two minutes. You know, like these are the rules

of these types of movies is you can introduce a character and make them so awful or so silly that no one's actually going to feel bad if they die. But you can't hire like an actress who's like a major star on the rise, give her like 15 minutes of scenes that have some real weight and charm to them, and then do the worst thing imaginable to her. Don't you feel though that when later she reveals her pregnancy to Somerset, and his reaction, his reaction is our reaction, which is like,

no, then you're truly fucked. Like like that you have that kind of reaction of like now the loss of you would be so profound nothing would be profound before that like there's I don't know a tragic air like settling around her but like Mitch I you know I never had the luxury of watching

this movie without knowing where it's going me neither and I was trying to do the hypothetical exercise watching it this time I'm like if I'm watching this cold in the where it's going. Me neither. And I was trying to do the hypothetical exercise watching it this time. I'm like, if I'm watching this cold in the theater where no one's told me anything, and I'm with my stupid brain, I'm like trying to figure out the story math of this. Like, why is he making this choice as a screenwriter? What would this be setting up for later? I do think maybe I assume the more conventional arc is now that Somerset knows this,

the end goal of this movie is for him to convince Pitt to leave the force. Yeah, sure. Right? Like, don't, whatever you think you're doing here, it's not going to work out for you.

The reason to disclose that information, I'm like, maybe the tragic ending of this movie is he convinces Pitt to retire and he re-ups. He doesn't leave the force or whatever it is. It's sort of this

cautionary tale of a guy. But like Somerset was too deep in. There was no getting out. He was able to save the soul of this guy and give him an out and have a family and all that sort of shit. But yeah, the dinner scene is so good. Freeman is doing this thing with the napkin.

They were like talking to him at dinner and like Paltrow's grilling him more and asking him about why he never married. And he's sort of dodging the question. And he's like playing with his napkin and he's like tying it around his hand like he's a little child.

And it's so disarming where you just feel like, oh, no one's actually invited this guy out socially like this in possibly two decades. Absolutely. That is a good call. He's not had a social life at all,

except with Nomi, of course. Right. His best bud. But that's a roommate. That's a life partner. I think he might bring it to like a Chinese restaurant and just sort of set it down and eat some dumplings. Yeah, right.

But that's what I love. He's like so... What if he brought it to this dinner and he was just, do you mind if I put it on a chair next to me? Can I bring my spouse? It's like a Lars and the Real Girls situation. Do we have to pretend like this is a human being? No, I just like that there's something very like childlike and awkward about

him. You know, he tries to brush off the invitation yeah right right and then once he's there he kind of loves like yeah being normal like because he's so good at being normal when in a crime scene where a man ate too much spaghetti and got kicked in the tummy

like he is reacting to that like Pitt reacts to that by going like ew and like going like, ew, and like going, blah, like. Yeah. Somerset is like pretty cool and collected in all of this

because that's his job, right? He's become so good at like, the waves crash against him and he's like, you know, like, whatever. But that's different from like, sitting at dinner

and having someone go like, so, are you seeing anybody? I mean, quite a bounce, bro. Circa 1995. Oh, God. press you for goss yes who could resist John Doe would he says

he likes it he puts her head in a box paltrow is just so fascinating as a cultural figure right you mean like the totality of her cultural like you know we including like goop we do all of the whole thing

I think it's did she endorse Rick Caruso? you said I'm Gwyneth from LA and I'm voting for Rick he would have made the seven city look like the grove I think there are a lot of actresses of her era who came in with like a lot of hype, right?

Sure. And were sort of like... Who are you thinking of? Like Julia Ormond. Sure. Gretchen Maul. Yes. Or even you come up with someone like Mira Sorvino

who like got an Oscar very young and then kind of could never top that or whatever it is. Right? Kneecap by Mr. Weinstein, of course. Yes. None of these people are direct analogs, but they're all in this similar sphere, right? Right.

Where you're like, on paper, she's someone who either that should be the beginning of her having a Jodie Foster-like career. Or she's like, oh, isn't that weird that Gwyneth Paltrow won the Oscar when she was like 28 and then her career completely tapered off.

And instead you're like, this is someone who's going to be wildly famous until the day she dies. But what she represents now is so bizarrely different. Yes.

And she is such an odd figure that I fall into the trap of being like, was she ever a good actress? Like, am I going to rewatch her performances and find that they're bullshit? Because I do think there's certain

people, I don't want to take stray shots of people who we don't need to, right? But there's certain actresses who I feel like had the heat. And then you watch the performances 20 years later and you're like, I see a couple tricks going on here. But in retrospect, it was kind of clear they didn't have a lot of

depth, right? They had like a couple tricks. They were good on camera. They were right. It was right place, right time, but there was not a sustainable craft here. And then you watch Paltrow anytime she's good in something, and you're like, holy fucking shit. When she was locked in, she's

locked in. And she can still choose to be locked in. It's been a while. Yeah, but then anytime she tries. Yeah. Like, Contagion, she's got a very small part, but you're like, she's fucking acting. I think that's been a while. Yeah. But then anytime she tries. Yeah. I like Contagion. She's got a very small part, but you're like, she's fucking acting. I think that's the last time, though. I mean, I enjoy her in the Marvel movies sometimes obviously, and then there are others where you're like,

I can tell that you don't remember you were in this. The three proper Iron Man movies, she's fantastic in. Girl, Tannenbaum, she is fantastic in. Well, Two Lovers as well. Two Lovers, she's incredible in. That's my favorite performance Two lovers. She's incredible. That dinner scene to me is just a really, it's the moment

where I wrote down just really sweet. It is just, I think, maybe the sweetest scene in the movie. She's so fucking good. What about the

gluttony murder? That's not sweet to you? I thought that was pretty sweet too. I mean, I thought it was like, that's sweet. Top ten sweet scenes in seven. No, yeah. And it's a real pretty sweet too because i mean i was like that's sweet like you know in a different top 10 sweet

scenes in seven uh no yeah it's it and it's a real spoonful of honey in a movie that you kind of are desperate for like any kind of normal human interaction it is weird that she lights one of the her goop vagina candles in that she does though too yeah but yeah right she gives but they show it up close but yeah it's not directly referenced in dialogue uh the things i love in that scene though too yeah but yeah right she gives but they show it up close but yeah it's not directly referenced in dialogue uh the things i love in that scene is is first off just just talking about how unprepared they are for the city the the dogs who are way too fucking big for a modest apartment in the city it's just like kids great yeah calls them the kids and then also the um uh the other thing is like there's a moment where and it just you know he's brad

pitt's character is almost cartoonishly dumb in this but there's a moment where and it just you know he's Brad Pitt's character is almost cartoonishly dumb in this but there's a moment where but it all works there's a moment where Morgan Freeman asks for a glass of wine and he brings him like a fucking tumbler of wine and it's just it's kind of unspoken and Somerset just like looks at it at a certain point but that's it

but it's just like I don't know I love that shit it's good and they're like high school sweethearts yes I love you do feel that vibe of like they're they the two of them work well together and in the movie i think there's just a moment where he like gets into bed with her and he's like i love you and it like works extremely well for whatever reason um but the right that was sweet in your notes i wrote was another sweet. That's one of my other sweet moments. But the earthquake set, they used that to trick people. People who visited set.

Oh, really? The apartment, they'd like shake it. Like they'd be like, oh, take a look at this set. And they'd be like, turn it on. Fuck with execs. Right. Yeah. That's fun.

Have the money fall out of their pockets. Yeah. Right after that is the conversation between Somerset, or, you know, pretty close to that, between Somerset and Tracy. Freeman's reaction to her saying she's pregnant is the moment in his performance that kills me. The moment in her performance that kills me,

I think, is just such a good choice and such an honest reaction, is he gives his whole spiel about him and his ex-partner aborting the child that they had. And he has that heartbreaking line where he says, I think, no, I know. I know it was the right decision. There's not a day that goes by that I don't regret it. And then he sort of gives his advice to her in that sort of Freeman authority way, right?

In the voice of God way where you're just like, anything this guy says in this position is going to hold so much weight. And just like, look, whatever you decide to do,

if you have that kid, like, you know, move far away. If you decide not to keep it, never ever tell him. And then he says, and it's sort of like this intensity

of her sitting there and like sort of clenching her tears, knowing the weight of what's being said, but trying to like maintain composure to diner and then he says uh and just promise me if you have that kid you spoil it every single day of its life and it's him making the joke to cut the tension right and paltrow's decision as an actor is that's the thing that finally breaks

her down and makes her cry rather than laughing it's like the empathy of that moment is the thing that's finally too heartbreaking for her to take it is heartbreaking it's acknowledging the reality of the situation but also the fact that he is being that thoughtful in the moment is the thing that finally breaks down her guard and she like loses it

and then smiles to sort of acknowledge like that's a sweet thing to say but at first it's just like, this is too fucking sad. She's so good in that. She's so good. And she's so good. I mean,

I love 90s Paltrow. She's so good in Emma. She's so good in Shakespeare. She's great in Sliding Door. She's great in Ripley. And then Tenenbaums, after Tenenbaums, I feel like she got lost

doing too much sort of, sort of, treacly dramatic stuff like Sylvia and Proof and these movies where it's like, she's angling for another Oscar nom and why? You know what I mean? She felt like she was getting Nicole Kidman runoff parts, which is not what she should have been doing. And then after that, of course, it's just like two lovers and Iron Man come out in the same year. And it's like, you know, the road not taken is two lovers.

Like Iron Man is just like, great, now you's like, you know, the road not taken is two lovers. Like, Iron Man is just like, great, now you just do this. She entered the world of hard science. You're forgetting that she changed her whole perspective and tried to focus on products that absolutely have been backed up by serious health commissions.

Okay. Right. Yes, absolutely. Also, she was married to Mordecai. Yes. Don't forget that. Yeah. Have you guys ever seen Mordecai?

No, I have not. It's on my list. It's at the top of my list. Do you you guys ever seen Mordecai? No, I have not. It's on my list. It's at the top of my list. Do you know the thing in Mordecai? A movie that I contend is actually impossible to watch. Like physically impossible to sit through without fast forwarding. Even when you would go to see it in a movie theater, the projector would be like,

don't worry, I'm hurrying it up. We're not going to play this. It's the only movie that was projected at 2x speed. Yeah, right. The guy I'm hurrying it up. We're not going to play this. It's the only movie that was projected at 2x speed. Yeah, right. The guy's just cranking it real hard. Yeah.

So the hands are on fire. He, Gwen Paltrow is Mordecai's wife in that film, right? Mordecai, he of the poster and the silly comedy mustache.

Yes. Right. The beginning of the film, she's been away on some trip. She comes home and he goes, honey, you won't believe what happened while you were gone. And he turns around and reveals that he's grown the mustache while she was gone. And she sees the mustache and pukes in her mouth. And the runner for the rest of the film is that she hates the mustache so fucking much.

And every time he tries to kiss her, she pukes. Right. That sounds good as hell. Yeah, you're trying to get us not to watch this movie? What are you talking about? We like it. I just like that even in the movie Mordecai, Mordecai's wife is like, we're really going to build the whole movie around this guy,

and he's going to have the mustache the whole time? That's really funny. Isn't there a character named Jock Strap in that movie? Yes. Yes, I believe that's Paul Bettany's character. I believe so, too. He's Mordecai's body man. Yeah.

Because that's what led to all the Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp, Paul Bettany texts, right? Yes. Yeah, anyway. Okay. They check out books. They check out who's checking out Seven Deadly Sins books.

That's what gets them to the apartment. Well, Somerset gives Mills the reading list. Mills goes and gets the Cliff Notes because the books are making his brain hurt. Yes.

No one must know what, no one, young people just don't know what Cliff's Notes are anymore, right? That's just like you would just look up a Wikipedia summary. Even though it's one of the best jokes

in Clueless. Does that mean that joke doesn't work anymore? Probably. When she says, she gives the Shakespeare quote. Yeah. And then she's like, that's such a good quote.

Where'd you get it? She says, Cliff Notes. It's really funny. That doesn't mean anything to anyone anymore. I don't think so. That's too bad. I remember when the first time I found out about Cliff Notes, there was probably someone making a joke to me.

And I was like, wait, what do you mean? What are you talking about? And they're like, well, they sell these books that are like 50 pages. And they just like dumb down the thing you're supposed to read for school. Right. So you can write a paper on it.

Right. And I was like, and where do you get them back, Allie? Do you have to know a guy? And they were like, Barnes and Noble. And I was like,

this is legal? This shit isn't Black Market. Do I have to show my ID? Do they not sell them if you're underage? And they're like, no, they let you.

It's just wild. Everyone was conspiring to help us cheat for so long. As long as you paid. I got them. I had a couple of plus notes. I do like that they're yellow, though, to be kind of like, cheat. You know, like, they're kind of like radioactive. You can't, like, put them on a shelf and, like, not see them.

You know that John Waters quote about if someone brings you home and they don't have any books on their shelves, don't sleep with them or whatever? What if you meet someone at a bar and you go back to their place and there's only Cliff Notes? That's what we call the yellow shelf. I'm a fan of the classics. You at least do hand stuff with them, right?

I would do hand stuff. Yeah, that's the thing. You would do a Cliff Notes set, right? I would do hand stuff. Yeah, that's the thing. You would do a CliffsNotes set, which is a hand job. Maybe even a hand job where like halfway and you're kind of like, do you want to wrap this up? I can hand this over to you.

Are we bored? Wait, fuck. By the way, I'm going to put together a bookshelf today. I didn't realize this quote. John Waters heard about your ass um mitch assembles a bookshelf just puts one kindle on nick there's some video game where if you cheat then everyone in the game calls you cheater i can't remember what game it is now yes where it's like hello cheater if you do a cheat that's sort of what some point some Sierra point and click

adventure or something something like that anyway alright so then there's the whole sequence the one action sequence in the movie them chasing him through the rain you know it's so fucking good it's so cool that's when Pitt breaks his arm yeah Pitt genuinely broke his arm

right and they had to write it into the movie. Yeah. In the commentary, they say that, like, Pitt says, and I think Fincher is being modest, but Pitt's like, basically, none of that is in, and they're very, very complimentary of having Andrew Kevin Walker's script, but they're basically,

none of the chase sequence is in the script. That was all, like, Fincher, like, figuring it out. And it is, like, it's awesome. It's extended. The other thing is, like, there's such a great sense of space in it and then and then another element is like it's not it's not a linear pursuit

it's like they're keeping moments of like where the fuck is this guy like they're trying to find him he's not sure he gets surprised by him yeah it's it's it's just really oh yeah that's right they were they were so sick of chase sequences where you're like oh he's seeing where the guy went.

Yeah, exactly. And then they wanted to have it be like, you're losing track of this guy. He really could be around any corner and Pitt is playing it that way. Yeah. Can you make out Spacey at all in this sequence? Like, is it definitely him or is there a chance some of this is double or different actors? It must be somewhat of a double right he is the crime scene photographer earlier

in the movie there's that because when they go to his easter egg of him but when they go and find the photos and Pitt puts it together if you look back at that scene it is Spacey wearing a wig doing a voice it's like Spacey doing a

mad TV audition if you were a detective that guy is weird is Spacey wearing a wig, doing a voice. It's like Spacey doing a Mad TV audition. Yeah, I think that if you were a detective, you'd be like, that guy's weird. We should maybe lock this guy up for being weird. But I would also find crime scene photographers weird, possibly. Yeah, but you'd be like, this guy's doing too much business. There's a little too much going on. He's overselling it.

Yeah, but I do like that he's in there early. I mean, this is obviously, this obviously one of the infamous things about this movie is Spacey has already shot Swimming with Sharks, Outbreak, and Usual Suspects. Hence his quote, as I said, had gotten higher despite the movie's not coming out. He reads this part. They finally come back around to

it and go, we'll meet your quote. We'll offer it to you. And his contractual demand is, don't credit me in the movie. Don't put me in the opening credits. Certainly not in the opening. He's in the closing credits, I believe. Twice. Right. But not in the opening credits. That was the makeup. Right. But don't put me on the poster.

None of that. And they went like, what the fuck are you talking about? And he said, if any of these three movies I've shot that are in the can blow up, which they might, more so than anything I've done before up until now, I'm going to be a much bigger name by the

time this movie comes out. And if there are three names on the poster, they spend the first half of this movie, hour plus, looking for the guy. And you never see his face. Everyone's going to go, well, Kevin Spacey's going to be the guy. He's in the credits. Like, anyone who's heard of him will be like, yeah, he's coming.

Right. So it's one of the few examples of, like, movie billing actually working to support the plot. It adds to the mystique of this performance in this film. Absolutely. Like, I think it was a thing

you would know as a young person. Like, did you know, like, Spacey's not... You know, like, that was, like, a little trivia fact. Especially when that year is him just kind of, like, growing his reputation to have him just And especially when that year is him just kind of like growing his reputation to have him just show up in the last 40 minutes.

Right. Because it's also, it's such a brilliant structural move. I mean, that's the thing, like Fincher talks about, he reads the script,

he's on like page five, he's like, it's a fucking buddy cop movie, I don't want to do this fucking thing. I mean, he's getting Lethal Weapon vibes, like you said, yeah.

Right, and then he sticks a little further in and he's like, wow, this movie's darker than I thought it was. And he's reading through it and he's like, wow, this movie's darker than I thought it was. Right. And he's reading through it

and he's like, this is not giving up. This movie's really dark. And then page 100, the killer walks in and goes, it's me. Yeah. And he's like,

I'm physically holding the script in my hand. I can feel there are still like 40 pages left. And I'm so excited being like, I have no idea

what happens in the remaining 40 pages. Right. The fuck is this movie doing if it plays its hand this early? left and I'm so excited being like I have no idea what happens in the remaining 40 pages right the fuck is this movie doing if it plays its hand this early with who the guy is it also just Spacey not putting his name in the opening by the way it just speaks to the character

of that man it's just kind of like a noble guy just the selflessness heroism I really hope he listens To this episode I hope he doesn't I think he's bad He's bad in K-Pax

Yeah I agree Before Is he Is he Yes Is this a bad performance Yes Yeah

I mean I believe you Yes I read the book Did I ever tell you that No Yeah years ago You never told me that I read K-Pax

The novel Both of you have read K-Pax I think the book Is not great did you like it i don't remember it being particularly good i've never seen kpax i don't think but i've read the book i've seen the movie mitch have you seen the movie i feel like i've seen parts of kpax i i also don't i don't i don't think i ever when spacey puts mustard on a roll i don't ever think i like even when he is the photographer and he's like hey let me take

a picture buddy i'm like this is that's over the top but when he's the photographer and he's like, hey, let me take a picture, buddy. I'm like, that's over the top. But when he's just being his normal spacey, kind of like when he's in this movie, too, just being kind of a psycho and just being a quiet-speaking spacey guy, I think that he's fun to watch. He is good. It's the thing that's fucking tough to talk about because you don't want to seem like you're praising him. But the performance is good. I think there's a really clear divining line, which is just like post-American beauty. I think he just gets so fucking up his own ass and just is doing things like playing whatever. Are you sure about that?

Yeah, he becomes a true Mad TV sketch character. Yeah. becomes a true mad TV sketch character. Yeah. And, and, and I think that, you know, and also things like playing like when he was like in his,

we was like 50 and he's playing like a 27 year old Bobby Darren and a biopic that he always wanted to be. Directing it. That movie wasn't indulgent at all. How dare you? But he's, look, we,

we talk about space a little bit, but like he always talks about, and especially like in the post American beauty era where he's just like, I've won two Oscars. I'm now a movie star, a fully minted movie star. And it became so clear that like, oh, in his mind,

he is Jack Lemmon. That's the star that he's always looked up to. And now he's going on talk shows and he's doing all his impressions. Right, he wants to be a little bit of that, right? Like the guy who can do

kind of a variety show as well as win an Oscar. Right, comedy and drama. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, this is the year where he breaks out largely because of two roles where he plays Stone Cold, creepy to the bone psychopath. The scariest people in the movie.

Like, in both Seven and The Usual Suspects, in the worlds of those movies, he's the worst, scariest person. Maybe the worst human being who's ever lived. The universe of the movie, exactly. Right. Yes. And once again, we watch him now and we're like, I understand why he was good

at playing these things, right? And then he enters this period, like, really, I'd say, like, 2000. He doesn't make it out of the 20th century alive, right? He goes into the year 2000 and he's like, now America loves me and I'm going to be charming. Podcast The Ride did a very good episode on this

that is untitled and behind multiple paywalls so that they don't experience any illegal action. And I apologize for directing any attention over there. But just the weird era of Spacey just wanting to be like rock on tour, like I'm singing John Lennon covers at a 9-11 tribute concert and shit like that. Sure. Right. Yeah. 11 tribute concert and shit like that. Sure, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, so much of our modern cultures need to talk about, like, how do you, like, address bodies

of work that contain cancelled people in a culture where people are getting cancelled at an alarming rate, where we find out more and more awful things about almost everyone all the time, right? And Spacey's been this guy where I've always started him as an example, where I'm like, well, the Cosby show is impossible to watch now.

You cannot watch the Cosby show. Like, the cognitive dissonance is too severe, right? But, like, I don't think Seven is negatively affected by Kevin Spacey because, if anything, it kind of plays into it. I'm not saying it makes it better. No, no, no, you're not wrong. But, like, American Beauty, I would imagine, is impossible to watch right now. In a way, I think it already wasn't holding up great. Sure, yeah.

But when that movie is premised on the idea of like, what a normal seeming suburban dad, who then turns out to be a little weirder than we thought, that falls apart. Versus this movie, when Kevin Spacey shows up and he's like fucking cut his fingertips off, you're like, yeah, no classic Kevin Spacey role. The thing with him is,

post this and pre-American Beauty, it's really interesting the roles that they find for him essentially playing like movie star creep. So like, time to kill, he's the evil lawyer. But that's probably being made sort of before he wins the Oscar. L.A. Confidential,

where it's like, he is a quote-unquote hero in that movie yeah but he's a weird creep he's really good in it you know he's kind of like a sort of slime ball the negotiator the negotiator it's like yes he's the hero but right there's sort of like a weird edge to this guy yeah midnight in the garden of good and evil which i just watched in my effort to finally watch every single Clint Eastwood directed film I watched it In which he's playing a gay Art collecting murderer

A role that he definitely Just had nothing to relate to in there And then A Bug's Life in which he plays An evil cricket That's his in between This and American Beauty Those are all the roles They're starring roles but they're not like You know heroes Yes. That's his in-between this and American Beauty. Yes. Those are all the roles. Like, nothing,

they're starring roles, but they're not, like, you know, heroes. Right. But, like, a perfect example of a guy like that who wins the Oscar, and then you're like,

what does Hollywood do with this guy now, right? He's too weird. He's too creepy. Is he going to get caught just playing, like, villains in Stallone action movies?

Right. And then that's a run where he makes, like, five or six really good choices in a row. Yeah. He kind of nails it. He, right, right. And then that's a run where he makes like five or six really good choices in a row. Yeah. He kind of nails it.

He wins his second Oscar. He does win his second Oscar. And then he just goes absolutely insane and kind of completely loses the plot. But the thing, the thing he does,

right, after he's horribly miscast in Pay It Forward. Yes. He's horribly miscast in the shipping news. These are big movies, you know,

big Oscar movies. But now he's in the Jack Lemmon role where he wants to be the sympathetic, sort of are big movies, you know, big Oscar movies. But now he's in the Jack Lemmon role where he wants to be the sympathetic sort of like sad sack, but like the world has shit upon him

and he's a good guy fighting to get what he deserves kind of thing. Yeah. He's trying to ignore the fundamental creepiness at that point.

Right. But yeah, he's very good in Seven. Before we discuss the finale of Seven, we haven't really, do we need to say anything else

about Lust, Pride? Those are the two murders, the late murders. And we talked about Leland Orser's masterclass. It's incredible.

And Michael Massey, who is, I don't know. The king of the scumbags. Do you guys know this? No, tell us. Michael Massey, the other actor

in that scene, the cross-cutting, who's the one who forces Leland Orser at gunpoint to do that horrendous killing. He is the man who shot Brandon Lee on the set of The Crow. Wow. Yes. And is a guy who is like...

He was traumatized by it. Very open about the fact that it basically broke him psychologically. He was so traumatized by it, he didn't act in movies for several years. He was like, maybe I can never act again. Then he went to do like a regional theater. Then he moved up to theater. He finally got sort of like drawn back into movies,

but was always very reluctant and was one of these guys who was like kind of always openly like processing the trauma of the thing. But whenever he was cast in roles like this, there is that weird edge of just like, this is a guy who isn't playing how haunted he is. He is also, he's the first villain in 24.

Yeah. Like he is the first guy that Jack Bauer deals with. Yes. He's like the villain for the first, half of the first season of 24. Yeah. He's so fucking good.

He was a credible actor and was a guy who was like so conclusively not at fault at all in the incident and like i think took more responsibility for it than he even should have because it's just like such a traumatizing thing but i do think when i did gun safety training for tomorrow war they they told the brandon lee story which i didn't even note like when they told the story i didn't like how that the specifics of right like that he went brought him to a shower you know his trailer to shower and that's when yeah when they came back and checked on him that's when they found out that he was even shot uh tomorrow war was pre rust right yes pre-rust yep because that was same everything i'd worked on except for maybe

one or two really really bad borderline illegal productions would do like these big safety demonstrations anytime there's a gun on set yes and sometimes like people would roll their eyes and go like do we really need to grind everything for it to a halt for this yeah it's been like 30 years this hasn't happened since brandon lee that's that and it was like, look, there shouldn't be any probably any guns in our country. But it was one of those things where I'm like, I on sets. I'm like, that's jobs that people have. And just the fact that that happened with Rust is so insane. Because as you saw, Griff, they're like so crazy, like about you checking because of the crow basically right right yeah

there's like a thing where like right whoever the firearms expert is on set will like before each take unload the gun take out a flashlight yeah shine it through each individual barrel show it to you that it's empty before you and then they have all these yeah right and and like they hand it to you the moment before they call action they pull it from you the moment after they say cut yeah and they basically have this like rule where they're like if you're fucking around and doing bits with the gun we take it away from you and we're not giving it back yeah like fuck the production it doesn't matter if you're not responsible we will not let that actor hold a gun anymore yeah uh yes but michael massey uh died kind of tragically young

he died of cancer yeah a few years ago but always had this really intense power on screen in roles like this yeah he's great in this yeah Leland Orser obviously also really good a real a real pincher type I mean this movie just

he's still dining out on this role he's fantastic stacked with great character actors but i also love that almost none of them the bus driver from speed as well yes as the library security guard right i just love that almost none of these characters have names yeah i also love that that that the scumbags in this are like no one's leaning into like like like hey well i'm a sleazeball what do you want from me right you know they're they're all just kind of like he's he's even like

like like no i don't like my job but what the fuck that's what life is you know like they're all like and richard shifts when he's the the the you know kind of shitty you know defense attorney later yes he's kevin space he's also like not playing it like a scuzz ball. He's just like playing it like a guy. The biggest character is Kevin Spacey as that photographer. It is. Yes. Richard Schiff is really well cast. He's really good.

Like he's a great actor and he can play, you know, a lot of stuff. But he's really good at that kind of chinless dude. Yes. You know. But like you look at the proper credits

at the end of this film. Leland Orser is credited as crazed man in massage parlor. Which he is. He's big too, but it's just so effective at that point. It's really effective. I feel like the last couple kills are you kind of do

I mean, except they show up it's crazy that we spend less time on them because it is like a big fucking knife that he that he fucks someone to death with. but that's the whole thing. And I think that that's a big part of it's the direction, obviously. But the way it's scripted is like we're not seeing any actual murders. Like we see one murder and it's the at the very end of the movie.

You know, everything is in the aftermath. And even then they like cut wide to when the actual gunshot happens. You don't, there's no like explosively bloody gag of John Doe being shot in the head. I just need to read this because JJ pulled this up in this incredible quote Fincher interview from 2009. He said, I thought

that what was pretty amazing about what Andy prescribed in his script and what he was so adamant about was that you don't need to see stuff. He unlocks the Pandora's box of your imagination in a really gripping way. Now you watch Law & Order SVU

and they're walking in the hallways and they say, we found semen in the eye socket. I would never do that. But we had a lot of people insisting they'd seen

more than they did. I almost had a fist fight with a woman at a Beverly Hills cocktail party because she said, there's no need to make a stand-in of Gwyneth Paltrow's head to find in the box. You don't need to see that.

And I said, well, we didn't. And she said, oh, yes, you did. So the imagination of properly primed can do more than any army of makeup artists. That was always my thing. Get people to fear, get them to see it in their heads. I do think people have false memories of images that are not anywhere near this film. Do we ever actually even see Ben Affleck's dick in Gone Girl? Are we all just imagining it?

We're going to talk about it. Believe me. It's going to come up. We might have you guys zoom in for another segment on that. You might need to just come in for that scene. Maybe just 10 minutes on a minute per inch. Mitch has that scene saved on his phone. I don't think we ever do see that. I don't know if we ever do see

that. Now I'm questioning if we've ever seen it. Have I just seen the Affleck duck stick? Is that what it was? You call the Affleck duck the Affleck duck? Sorry, we're being fools over here. You guys can continue on with your good podcasts. Very good. We're just absolutely drinking it in we're just

enjoying it um Ben do you like seven I feel like this is a real Haas movie yeah it's fucked up it's dirty it's the kind of thing where you smoke weed with your friends later and you like talk about how extremely fucked up it was right

which which would you like want to happen to you like if you had to have one of these happen to you or whatever yeah you do stuff like that do stuff like that right but i watched it again i guess as you get older uh seeing extremely violent things like this and just becoming more and more of a person with people you love in your life. I was really, you're horrified by it. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. But also it's close to home for you because you're engaged with Paltrow. That's a specifically. Yes. Well, of course there's that. And you live underneath the railway.

Yeah. I will say though, I had pasta for dinner that night afterwards. Okay. So you were, you were fine with this. Ben, don't say that.

It'll get canceled. Mitch, what were you about to say? I was going to say that night afterwards. Okay, so you were fine with this beginning. Ben, don't say that. It'll get canceled. Mitch, what were you about to say? I was going to say that it's funny because I agree that it is, like, I find the ending cruel in many ways. And I, like, don't want it to happen. It's very cruel. And as a kid, probably thought, I was like, whoa, this is fucking crazy and cool. But then also as an adult, I've also now, I'm not as shocked by Seven because everyone took a page out of its book, of course. And like Fincher was saying, come in the eye socket or whatever.

Right. They just show it to you. Right. Right. It's that both in cinema and then also just in the real world, in our decaying reality of just like the actual horrors you're subjected to. It seems muted by comparison. My one thing just to the I, you know, I'd like this movie more on a rewatch, although I had a similar reaction to Ben of just like it's it is it is repulsive. It is revolting in a way that I didn't feel when I was younger. But comparing it to Zodiac, which, you

know, not not fair. It's it's it's a it's a real world thing. And it's and it's also, you know, that's one of my favorite films of all time. So I have a little bit more favoritism towards it. But you also receive residuals from it. But yeah, go on life rates. What I like about Zodiac is that it shows serial killers as we know them to actual actually be, which is that they're like fucking they're derivative. They're consumers. They're dumb.

You know what I mean? It's like versus here. It's like, you know, this is he's a supervillain, right? Like he's like the glorification of the serial killer. The represent that John Doe here. He's so many steps ahead of everyone that everything goes according to his plan. And even when there's a little bit of a hiccup, he still manages to get back on track and have the upper hand.

He's in control the entire time. And I kind of I kind of just I'm more interested in the the dude who, you know, copied his costume from, you know, the film, the adaptation of The Most Dangerous Game.

And, you know, uses a code that he stole from a children's book and has fucking dirty dildos and squirrel meat in his decrepit trailer. Like, I feel like that's like closer to the to the actual psychopath that we see in our reality. Yeah, I just want to just give a cliff notes version of what Weiger just said. He likes the Zodiac Killer. Mitch, what were you about to say? killer Mitch what were you about to say I was I was gonna say that after watching this movie I don't I haven't

seen it in a long time but I coming out of it I didn't think that this was his most hopeless movie I think that like I honestly feel like Fight Club was more hopeless I felt like yeah honestly I me out more yeah if I could is more Yeah, Fight Club bums me out more. Yeah, Fight Club is more of a bummer. Fight Club is more of a bummer.

I think that – honestly, I think Social Network is a huge bummer just for the world we live in. I mean like there's also a speech that Pitt gives at one point. I was trying to figure out where this was, but I wrote down Brad Pitt's speech is kind of hopeful at one point point which is maybe i think this is before even that they they've captured um spacey but like he is he is a hopeful character obviously at the end that's that's you know that's that's no but he thinks he can do good 100 yes he thinks this is he's a hero yeah right i mean he thinks like that's why he wants the job yeah for sure and and and I know I know we're headed towards the finish line but like just just one of the things that on rewatch is like a scene that really hits you know obviously Kevin Spacey having the blood covered

shirt and it's Gwyneth Paltrow's blood but but I think the scene where the two of them are just joking around shaving their chests so they can put the hidden mics that tape their hidden mics their chest is like knowing what's happened you know at that point like yeah yeah it's such like a it's such like a great scene on rewatch yeah well because they're amped because they think they're cruising to a win exactly yes right and they're like and we stopped the final two from happening it was it was it was to me it was this sort of thing of like man i remember everything about this movie and then don't remember so much of it at the same time, which was fascinating for a movie I haven't watched probably in over 20 years to just be like, oh, yeah, this is where this happens. And then just picking up the little details, noticing how beautiful it was, too, which we texted about. It looks so great.

We didn't even talk about the rain even that much. I mean, we talked about a little bit. We talked about the rain, Mitch. We talked about the rain. We talked about the rain. But you could talk about the rain forever. It's great. No, but I do agree with you guys.

It was funny reading all the quotes of people who were just disgusted by this film on paper. And within a couple of years... It's not even that crazy. It's just like what you guys were saying. It doesn't even show that much stuff. And it's a testament to this movie, too, that when you watch the greatest horror moments of all time and then Sloth is on there. Because it's not really a horror movie.

From what I remembered, there's horrible things in it and there is some imagery. And I love that it goes into the horror genre. But it's not really gross it's not you're not seeing any of these crimes committed like you said it's strange it's a strange movie in that way within 10 years like Criminal Minds

is covering shit as twisted as this you know like it's like beyond even Saw you know the thing with Saw even is that Saw 1 you watch it it you're like wow this is incredibly restrained yeah doesn't really show you much it's sort of this and then you're one you know by the time you're at saw five you're like oh there go her boobs like ripped off by the big claw did you know in saw three there's a trap where which saw is that sims

in saw three there's a trap where there's pigs getting ground up into slop and a guy drowns in the big slop jesus you know about this no that's the other thing though they become so cartoony and then you have stuff like svu and criminal minds that is like so grounded like we did the research and whatever and then there's like the rise of true crime documentaries which leads to the rise of true crime podcasts and all this shit. And you're like, yeah, there's like the moral decay, as you said, of society, right? That I think makes this movie not feel tamer, but feel less shocking than it did at the time. But I also think that like all of the stuff that's being kind of touched on in this movie has been more normalized. These are no longer conversations that happen behind like closed doors with only

the most grizzled people who have basically accepted a monastic life of punishment and need to know the greatest evil humanity is capable of. Instead, my great uncle watches it on CBS at 830. You know? And so, I think the thing that maybe makes

us hit a little bit harder is the ending, is the final sort of mental trick of the thing right of like oh this has become a moral test right i mean i do just love the john doe surrendering himself detectives just the right amount of information on him i don't remember if it's ermie saying or whatever but they're like what do we know about this guy he clearly comes from money he He's got weird resources. He shaved off his fingers, right?

And you're kind of expecting like the next 30 minutes, we're going to get a full psychological profile of this guy. We're going to figure out exactly how he did it and how he works.

And instead, he's just sitting in the backseat being like, this is all going according to my plan. This is what I wanted. I'm here because I wanted to be here.

And you were like, what the fuck is this guy's game? He gives this self-aggrandizing speech with Pitt, you know, says,

you're a t-shirt, you're a movie of the week, whatever. And then he is proven 100% right. Yes, and I agree with you that he is proven right,

obviously. He enacts his plan. Yeah. But there is that moment with the moment that you quoted to start this episode 50 or 60 hours ago yeah um in which he uh it's just a little joke um don't feel free to laugh

you don't need to laugh where you know he he gets nervy he's like oh you think these people were innocent you know and that's the only moment where he does feel kind of pathetic you're suddenly like oh right you are just like crazy like yes you have resources and this kind of you know weird criminal genius

or whatever but you are fundamentally just someone who's like that disgusting person needed to die but that is that you're like he did a good job

you know what I'm saying like can you cut that out and just no no isolate it to your point of like you saying that you feel like the Riddler and the Batman is a bad serial killer I watched this movie and I'm saying like, can you cut that out? Keep it in. No, no, I'm saying it's isolated. To your point of like you saying that you feel like the Riddler and the Batman is a bad serial killer.

I watched this movie and I'm like, this is about as good as I can imagine anyone could be at serial killing. He's successful. You know, he is successful. I'm not saying I endorse it. I do, but I'm not saying that,

but I do watch it. And I'm like, this guy played it pretty fucking well. He did. What he wanted to happen happened. So whether that was worth it, I guess is maybe a big question. And you read about like all the different alternate endings

they pitched, right? Even, you know, leading up to shooting it, Pitt saying, I quit if you don't. Even after they shot it and they test screened it, they were like, can we please reshoot the ending?

Because they knew they were going to have to go back to the desert to reshoot the helicopter shit. And it was like, can it be the dog, the dog's head in the box? Is that five degrees less upsetting to the audience? It's like one million degrees less upsetting to the audience. Can it be inside the box is a TV screen showing Gwyneth Paltrow tied in the apartment to a chair. Box in a box. Right.

And then they go in there and they save her in time. Right. And then even when they were like, no, it has to be her head. Then they were like, if it's her head, then Pitt can't shoot him. He needs to be redeemable. He can't give in. So it can be that Somerset shoots John Doe to prevent Mills. Which I almost root for watching the movie again.

I almost root for that. You want there to be the out. Can it be that Somerset shoots Mills so Mills doesn't shoot him? He doesn't kill Mills, but he stops Mills long enough to not give in. They were just like, is there anything to avoid the double whammy of the head is in the box and he does it? And there isn't. No no and he's got to do it yeah when you're watching the movie you're like yeah yeah shoot was it was this a playground

rumor that the baby was in the box or was that discussed i just feel like the playground rumor was that you saw the head as you're sort of saying about like someone cast you know a chastising fincher for it like or that there was a version of the movie where you saw the head that we hadn't seen. There's this insane rumor that circulates around the internet and I've seen it reported on ostensibly

legitimate, reputable outlets that in, not outbreak, excuse me, contagion, when they do the autopsy of Gwyneth Paltrow

and they like cut open her head. face down. That they were like, well, it was easy for them to do that because they had the leftover head from Seven.

Oh, wow. I've seen serious websites I mean, it makes sense to me that people would just make that like subconscious connection. we built the head for Seven.

We never used it. And then Fincher and Soderbergh are friends and the head, the prop was preserved for 25 years and then passed along? I mean, I love that idea

and that's true and obviously sometimes is actually true in Hollywood of like you still got that model from fucking you know, Star Trek 2? Just go get it and paint it blue. Like it'll be a new spaceship or whatever. They wouldn't have built the head from Seven with the

layers of musculature. No, they needed to. No, they had to. To make the box really heavy. The box had to be heavy. The box had to have the proper weight, not like an empty coffee cup or whatever. Kevin Spacey probably, as a method actor, demanded,

I can't fake it unless there's a real head in the box. I don't care whose it is. Just one more thing. His sleepy thing was just like, this is the peak of him just knowing how to weaponize that. The draw. Yes. Yes.

Yes. By the way, I just want to give credit to the movie for, it won three golden popcorns for best movie with Fincher, David Fincher, best villain, Kevin Spacey, won a golden popcorn for best villain and most desirable male is Brad. Yeah. Best movie with David Fincher. Best villain, Kevin Spacey.

Won the Golden Popcorn for best villain. And most desirable male is Brad Pitt. Yeah, so Pitt said, like, I think he had won that award for Legends of the Fall. And was like, I need to do a movie like Seven to disrupt that image so I stop being a heartthrob. And then he still won the award. They were like, Hachi Machi! Throw that Golden Pop popcorn at him. He's like, leave me alone! Morgan Freeman, the only one who got screwed,

because the best duo, Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt, were nominated, but they lost to Farley and Spade for Tommy Boy. I mean, that's a deserving loss. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I have a problem with that loss, really. Just the final pitch shot of him debating

whether or not to do it. Wow, it is a stacked category. Bad Boys, Friday, and Toy Story. Jesus. For on-screen duos. How did Toy Story lose? Fucking Buzz and Woody. Did Buzz and Woody ever win?

I don't know. If Buzz and Woody never won a goal to popcorn, then that award is a fucking sham. David, open up three more tabs. 99, 2010, 2019. and give me the MTV Movie Awards for each year they were nominated again

in 2000 for Toy Story 2 Best On Screen Duo and they lost to Mike Myers and Vern Troyer for The Spy Who Shagged Me Dr. Evil and Mini fuck okay what about 2010 no that's it those are the only two nominations. The award is then turned into Best On-Screen Team and then discontinued after 2006,

then brought back in 2013, discontinued again in 2015. The final winner... Oh, no, then they brought it back. They keep doing... They did Duo in 2023. Last of Us. Fuck this.

I hate this shit. Forky won a movie, Heartth Us. Fuck this. I hate this shit. Forky won a movie, Heartthrob, in 2019. Yeah, he's got a killer body. No,

I think Pitt plays this scene so well. This scene's just so exquisitely done. But it's the moment of,

like, the way it plays out, they really do get a lot of value of going to the helicopter shots and having that perspective where they're far enough away

and everything's kind of abstracted and it really creates this weird tension of seeing them in this open barren space well it's also you want it

you're like get me away from this like it's sort of a release you're like I can't look and think about this anymore but like delivery driver

comes in with the box Spacey's sort of just checking his watch being like oh I can't look at, think about this anymore. But like delivery driver comes in with the box. Spacey's sort of just checking his watch being like, oh, I think it's about to happen. They're far off. He sees it. And it's that moment where like Freeman puts it together. Right? There's the initial shock of just seeing the head in the box. And then when he sort of radios in and goes like, John Doe has the upper hand.

Like he immediately figures out what the entire plan is. And you just see Freeman in his head, try to calculate, how do I prevent Mills from doing this? Right. And he knows it's probably impossible. Right. Yeah. And what would happen to Mills? Is he gets the chair?

No, I think that's probably a manslaughter charge. He probably doesn't even get much. He can't be a cop anymore. Yeah, he's definitely his career is over. His wife is dead. Right. Right. Somerset says to the chief, like, just make sure he gets everything he wants.

Right. Make sure you take care of him or whatever it is. He would do time for that. I'm pretty sure an active duty cop who executed a suspect would go to prison for some time. But like he yes, it would be some kind of lesser. Yeah, I would assume. I mean, I guess he shoots him in cold blood, but he murdered his wife.

Put her head in a box. Yeah. And also he's done various other elaborate murders. Also, he's kind of funny looking. Yeah. Here's a question. Yeah. Do you think Mills pulls the trigger if Doe doesn't drop the thing about the baby? Yes, probably. But obviously that's the whatever.

Right. You know, the coup de grace. Right. But he probably fucking shoots him. He's got a gun right there. But he's like, he's holding on to a certain amount of restraint. And then it's like Doe genuinely seems to not know that Mills didn't know. And Spacey's delight at that.

I was like, oh, you didn't. I know, it's so nasty. And it's also just the fact that, like, in that moment, that's the thing that gets Somerset to slap him, which belies that Somerset knew. Yeah. And also confirms that the head's in the box.

The betrayal of that. Because he's trying to get him to say, like, tell me it's not in there. Somerset doesn't want to lie to him, but that's finally the give. So, like reveal collapses mills's entire world where it's like she was pregnant i didn't know he knew that means her head's in there she's dead the baby's gone my whole future's gone and then pit just has that one fucking shot that i feel like is still like memed all the time where he goes through like 10 reactions in three seconds.

Yes, yes. And Pitt at this classic gif at this point. At this point in his career where he was always putting a lot of mustard on it. And I think when he was well cast as an actor, it was because people were playing into his desperation to be taken seriously. And a lot of these roles where he's kind of playing the junior to

a more August movie star leading man. Harrison Ford and Robert Redford, yeah. I feel like that's the first moment of Pitt's career as an actor where he starts to tap into what he's going to actually have full control over like 10, 15 years later. I agree. Yeah.

No, I mean, I think this is a quote-unquote immature performance from him in a way. Yeah. But it's a good performance and it's right the start of yeah and that moment's just so skillful I love him in that moment it's good it's the perfect I mean that's the it's the perfect movie

at the perfect time for both Fincher and Pitt and their career trajectories are obviously forever affected I wish to go back to the MTV Movie Awards I wish that it was William Shatner's head in the box because it just would Movie Awards I wish that it was William Shatner's head in the box because it just would have been you wish that it was William Shatner's

head in the box? that's in the MTV Movie Awards that's what happens, did you see it? really? are you talking about the 1995 MTV Movie Awards? yeah! who was hosting? I think Shatner looks like the hosts were

oh my god john lovitz and courtney cox jesus what a what a fucking combo but no way i think the seven that's so funny oh no the seven awards i'm sorry were the year after that was 95 okay john lovitz and courtney cox the dynamic duo yeah 96 was hosted by ben siller and janine caroff oh of course good a good combo yeah better combo by the way uh-huh courtney cox and john lovitz definitely fucked right this is a joke i i 100 believe there is no way they didn't uh yes i don't remember that joke why would it be shatner i don't get it it was such a punch line kind of got like it's that era of conan bringing out like mr d or

shatner as like a quick visual punch line i'll give you i watched it last night i'll give you a little bit more the the you watched the the mtv movie awards parody yeah i watched the mtv movie awards parody last night the the the delivery driver is a green alien babe instead of like uh our cat i know it's one of the our cats that what's the time code on this does it cut in with the actual movie footage or did they shoot both sides of it uh i think they they definitely cut it into the movie okay got it and then shatner's head is in the box and then he sings a song. That's good. That's pretty good. When I was young and I would watch those, I like could not comprehend the technical wizardry of how well the new footage they shot cut in with the old footage.

Yeah. Where I was just like, this feels impossible. How the fuck are they matching this? And I wonder if it's a thing. That's my question. If I rewatch it now, would it all look like bullshit to me to me i mean i think they do a good job with like the location they get like a like a like a brown grass location or whatever so and then it's shatner is playing every role he's playing he's playing oh that's this this is what it is he's he's playing morgan freeman and brad pitt and kevin spacey and then when they open the box he's the head in the box that's good which they open the box, he's the head in the box.

He's in there. That's good. Which maybe made people think that you see the head in the box. I maybe think that there is some connection to that. Maybe that's why. I'm going to watch this when I get home. Yeah.

Before we do the box office game, I do want to point out that this movie did so well that they wanted, Andrew Kevin Walker has a script called 8mm, which of course was turned into a movie. Yes. But they initially wanted to try and repurpose that and have Morgan Freeman be in that movie as Somerset.

Wow. Like, they're just like, we'll just do a 7 sequel, 8mm, and it'll be fucking just Somerset doing a new crime. You know, like, you know, that'll be it. And even though this movie has like an ending an ending, like, it is over. 8mm is a movie I would argue is almost more bleak and depraved than this film. Yeah, it is.

And it's wild that that movie, whatever it is, two years later, gets, like, a $60 million budget and is made by, like, Paramount. Yeah. Where suddenly this thing had become, like, a script that no studio would touch, where they were like,

please give us the next seven. There's also a film called Solace that did actually get released. So, Ted Griffin was the main writer on Ocean's Eleven and a ton of other movies. He's got Anthony Hopkins and Colin Farrell. I've never seen it.

Wolf of Wall Street. He writes a script called Solace. That's about a detective tracking a serial killer where there's a psychic element. Sure. And New Line buys it diehard with a vengeance style and says,

can we rewrite this to make it into a seven sequel? Right. Which they title E.I. numeral 8 H.T. Great.

I swear to you. Yeah. There's an Anna Kool story that runs that is New Line desperately wants to make a all three guys go I swear to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's an Anna Kool story that runs that is, New Line desperately wants to make a,

uh, all three guys go, absolutely not. Right. I think it really would've just come down to Fincher and, uh, Morgan Freeman.

Uh, I don't know what role Pitt would've played in this, but they did finally make that movie five, six years ago with Anthony Hopkins and your boyfriend,

Colin Farrell. Yes. It's a Farrell film I've never seen. I don't think it's supposed to be very good. By the way, the trailer for The Killer came out today. It sure did. Looks fucking great to me. And let's, Mitch, I know you wanted to mention this. It will be out

of date by the time this episode comes out. Just yesterday was the birthday of two people very important to this episode. It's true. Who we didn't know shared a birthday. Yeah. Nicholas Weiger and Da Finchman. Da Finchman and Weig's birthdays yesterday.

Wow. Happy birthday, Weig's. Thanks, buddy. Fincher turned 60. Happy birthday to Da Finchman. Weiger turned 65. I was waiting for someone to do that. I've heard someone who's seen The Killer and they say that it's great. I'm very excited about it.

I'm so excited. I've heard good things about The Killer. I'm very excited to see it. Also in Andrew Kevin Walker's script, right? Did we mention that? I believe he is involved.

He's done a lot of movies with Fincher. He's done a lot of rewrites for him too. I think I've always... Yeah, he is the screenwriter. Alright, Griff. This movie and Nick and Mitch. This movie opened September 22, 1995.

Any final thoughts? 7 out of 10. Pretty good. I don't know. I mean... It was 7th at the box office. 7th highest grossing film. That is true. 7th highest grossing film of 1995. You're That is true. Seventh highest grossing film of 95. Don't be looking at the box office.

You're going to ruin it. That's for the year. That's for the year. I want to open the floor if there's anything else you want to say before we play a box office game, but no pressure. I don't think there's anything I've missed. I mean, I watched Clute over the weekend because I know that both Fincher and Darius Kanji the DP had cited that as an inspiration it is like you know I love the look of this movie we maybe didn't talk enough about

that but it's just like how much it lives in the shadow how dark it is which was a criticism of the time but it like how much they're just the idea of directing the audience's eyes via flashlights is such a neat trick that they do repeatedly it's all copied that's the thing it's like this movie is so copied the bleach bypass audience's eyes via flashlights is such a neat trick that they do repeatedly.

It's all copied. That's the thing. It's like this movie's so copied. The bleach bypass thing. It doesn't look bad at all. It doesn't hurt this movie for me, but it is very profoundly. But it basically took out most of the mid-tones and most of the colors. So you have like kind of jet ink blats and then the silvers

in the whites. My last shout out is just that the backwards credits are cool and then that song Guilty by Gravity Kills because I know that they opened it up with the Nine Inch Nails kind of remix of whatever Closer maybe but then that song

Guilty by Gravity Kills I remember being like a song I really liked right around then 13 years old or whatever getting into that kind of more dark. We talk about this in our Fight Club episode coming up. I am sort of surprised that this movie did not

get a decade later ill-advised video game adaptation in like 2004. Oh man, it should have. Yeah, they did make a Fight Club game. Doesn't it feel like that would have happened? You collect clues, you put like pages in a book or something. But that era of the Godfather games, the Fight Club game.

Yeah. You would end up fighting Gluttony or whatever, too, I'm sure. That would be what the game is. Shoot meatballs into his mouth. Sign me up. I'll do the mocap for that. 7 out of 7 for me. 7 out of 7.

7 out of 7. Good seven out of seven good good yeah um do you like it i do i think it's great yeah it's look it's not one of my favorite uh finisher movies but i i think i uh i disproportionately prefer the latter half of his career i do too but this is kind of right in the middle there for me no yeah i think we're on the same page yeah top top half of his output for for me, my top three is, you know, Zodiac, Social Network,

Gone Girl. I think those are, those are one, two, three for me, but, but, same bro.

I basically agree. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's like, it's impressive that he has evolved this much, that this now feels like middle tier Fincher, because this is very much the kind of movie that someone spends a career chasing.

Chasing. A hundred percent. Right? And like, I do, I like the game. I like Panic Room. You know, I like Fight Club, I love the Fight Club story. But the game and Panic Room feel like movies that are kind of chasing Seven. I kind of like both more than Seven sometimes.

Not always. Like, you know, they're kind of all in the same world for me. But I do feel like for a while they're kind of all in the same world for me. But I do feel like for a while, that kind of was his rep. Where it's like, yeah, he still makes good movies, but like,

it's kind of tough to top Seven. It was one of those things where the check was just so big they were going to let him keep making movies because from the director of Seven was not running out. And to me,

it's like when he made Zodiac, I was just like... Yeah, that was the holy shit, I didn't know this guy had this in him. And then he just sort of levels up to a whole nother thing. Okay, box office.

September 22nd, 1995. Wow. Don't ring the bell. Wait, yeah. Wait, where did that come from? Hold on one second. Did you hear that? Doughboys, I'm sorry.

Something very real is happening in our studio right now. It's coming from the closet. Oh, okay. Hold on one second. It's definitely real and not planned it's very real it's always so good when Ben goes to the bathroom there's a naturalism happening in this studio right now

not seen since Spacey played the photographer at the crime scene it would be so scary if someone Ben has a box you have to let the doughboys see this Ben come on camera don't fucking not do this I just want to make it clear we don't know what this is out of the closet. Yeah, Ben, come on camera. Jesus Christ. Don't fucking not do this for...

Whatever the hell it is you're doing. We don't know what this is. I need to go home soon. We were not keyed into this. Ben is now standing in front. Can you guys see this? Oh, wow. Ben has a box

and a pair of scissors. We don't know what's in the box. Ben, what's in the box? Okay. Ben's cutting open the box. Using some scissors. Ben is wearing a wig and doing a weird accent.

Kind of like playing up a kind of New York tough guy thing. Guys, what's in the box? Okay, there's an envelope that says David and Griffin. Oh, is there something underneath there? Yeah, maybe we should open up that envelope. Yeah, open up that envelope. Maybe see what's in the envelope.

There was a very nuanced reaction to whatever Ben just saw in the box. Okay. And then inside is a note. It says, I visited your studio this morning. I tried to taste the life of a simple podcaster. It didn't work out, so I played my own box office game and took her lovely bobblehead, signed John Doe.

And it's D-O-U-G-H good good good okay Ben what's what's in the box it's okay so it's surprisingly hard to find a Gwyneth Paltrow action figure oh my god we settled on um

we settled on a rip off Funko Pop figurine of a mini-co-hero of Pepper Potts as Rescue from Avengers Endgame. Wait, this is not a Ben bit? This is a Weig's bit? This is a Dope Boys Ben collab. Yeah. Wow.

Did we get the Happy Meal box or that? No, we didn't get the Happy Meal box. We were going to send it in a Happy Meal box. We were going to send it in a Happy Meal box. That would have been funny. We also were going to cut off the head of the doll but then we got it and we're like,

it's kind of, maybe they want it. I don't know. There was a perfect Gwyneth Paltrow head as Pepper Potts but it costs like $600. There's a really expensive bust.

Really? Yeah. Let me see this. Anyway. Has she never played another? I guess she really hasn't. That's not really her vibe. You're not getting a Sylvia Plath doll.

No, I have a... I think Funko made a world Tannenbaum stuff that looks so much like her. One of those laser-accurate Funko likenesses. You know? The light in the eyes. So are you both crushed for life? Yeah, this is gonna ruin us forever. It's in the box?

David and I are going to shoot each other. I can't believe this doll is pregnant. That's the strangest part. Okay, let's now play the box office game. I was kind of hoping that a metronome was going to be in the box. What's in the box office game? David is so upset. I feel so bad.

September 22nd. No, I'm very happy about this, to be clear. It is a little frightening, but I mean, just her likeness is a little frightening. Do you want me to do it again though and you guys could really sell it? September 22nd, 1995. I just can't believe that the bobblehead also smells

like her vagina. I'm just talking over you. That it also has the scent. Is that like a licensing demand for all products? Okay, so 7 is opening to $13.9 million Griffin, which is a sign of just how good its legs work. It made $100

domestic. And it made another $150 overseas? It made $228 overseas. It was such a smash hit overseas. $330 total? Correct. Absurd. Yes. Massive, massive hit. But also, yeah, in America, all fall and winter, I feel like Seven was just doing really well.

September dumping ground. Yeah, very much so. As evidenced by the film opening at number two at the box office, Griffin, that is getting dumped to hell. Now, you said we have covered it on this podcast. Is it number two? Number two is the one that's getting dumped to hell. Now, you said we covered this weekend before. We have covered it on this podcast. Is it number two? Number two is the one that's getting dumped to hell? So it's opening to $8 million. It's one of the bigger flops we've covered on the show?

Yes, and it was hoping for major shock value, much like Seven, propelling it to box office success. Are you joking or serious? Serious. It was hoping for major shock? It is a somewhat beloved film, but at the time despised. 95. Yes.

It is somewhat beloved. It's fairly beloved at this point. Give me, give me what studio made it. MGM. It was an MGM release in 1995. It is called Showgirls. It is Paul Verhoeven's Showgirls.

That opened against Seven. Wild. Wow. Hey, can I take my five-year-old to see a movie this week? What's Hollywood got for me? Showgirls is opening at a fairly bad $8 million.

It's only on 1,300 screens, I think because it was rated NC-17. Here is an honest question. Yeah. Which film has a bleaker view of humanity? Showgirls. Right?

That's not even close. In Showgirls, it's like the people who are your friends are trying to push you down the stairs. Yes. Such a serial killers.

Yeah. Showgirls, Big Mom. Okay, number three of the box office. It's a comedy, Griffin, starring three action heroes. Is it to Wong Fu, Thanks for Everything,

Julie Newman? Wow. Which has been number one two weeks in a row sure and is now dropping to three

you said comedy starring three action stars right exactly I think about like how pointed the casting of that movie was I know Leguizamo is a stretch as a star

but he was Luigi for crying out loud yeah that's another project like the opposite of of fucking seven where they offered it to everyone

and everyone said please commit yourself to an insane asylum for even recommending the script to me you read about how hard everyone was fighting to get those roles into Wong Fu like in a fairly homophobic age of Hollywood

for whatever reason at that moment every A-list actor was like, I think this is going to be the big project. Right, right. They were batting people off like flies. Spielberg was briefly,

he was never going to direct it, but like at least, like, you know, shepherding it. But the conception was always like three humongous leading men. You won't believe it. They're drag queens

and this is the longest title a movie will ever have. Yes. And then people were astonished that it flopped. Yeah, right. Although it was number one for two weeks in a row, but in the doldrums of September. Yeah.

It's made $24 million in three weeks. Okay, number four is a star-driven drama, sort of inspirational drama, most famous for a song that is associated with it. It's Dangerous Minds. Wow. Oh, damn.

Griff. Of course. Gangsta's Paradise. You guys were talking about High School High in a recent episode. Yeah. It is a movie.

We were talking about a different film. I was going to invoke some, but we were talking about Off Mic before the episode. That is a movie I defended vigorously when I was 15 years old.

And I'm worried if I watched it today, I would commit myself to jail for having that opinion. That movie, like some movies from your childhood you watch and you're like, oh, this hasn't aged well. That movie, the poster hasn't aged well. This is the thing. You guys were saying that. And I remember watching it and thinking, look, it knows it's dancing on a very thin line, but I thought it was skillfully satirizing a very, very sensitive subgenre

that emerged in the mid-90s, and I wonder if I would feel that way today. Very droll, John. And then this is the poster. That poster is insane. He has a pic in his afro. I know, I know, and a bullet flying through the afro and the title of the movie

is shaved into his hair. The fucking tagline is there's a new teacher, spelled teach with an A, in the hood. Did Jim Abrahams direct that? No, Hart Bachner directed it. Did Jim Abrahams produce it or write it? David Zucker wrote it.

Okay. I knew it had a Zucker. They locked him in for those MTV Movie Awards hosting jobs, though. It did. Was it Courtney Love? Or who was it? Courtney Cox. Oh, Courtney Cox.

Okay, that makes way more sense. I think Sean Lovitz probably fucked Courtney Cox and Courtney Love. They want to take that. They were trying to take that show on the road. Lovitz and Cox. Yes. Number five at the box office is a serious, more serious drama about teenage violence in the inner city

from one of our great auteurs. Are you being facetious? No, I'm not. It's more serious. Yeah, it's like a crime drama. In 1995 from one of our great auteurs. Yes. Good movie.

It's a good movie? Yep. Based on a book. What city is it set in? New York City. Heard of that? Yeah, I have. City? I have heard.

The Big Apple. What studio released this picture? This studio was, of course, Universal. It's a Universal 1995. Mm-hmm. The Youths Are in Trouble movie? A Kid is in Trouble. One kid. But it are in trouble movie. A kid is in trouble. One kid.

But it's a cop movie. Well, I mean, kids, you know, the teens of Brooklyn, I guess, you know, but it's about a kid, a teenager. It's based on a book. It's about a teenager. You maybe have never seen this movie. It's not a boy's life. Nope. Huh.

I've maybe never seen it, but you love this movie. I really like this movie. It's about a kid. I haven't seen it since I was in college. Tell me something about the director of this picture. A totemic voice in American cinema. A totemic voice in American cinema? Yes.

Important to this day. It's often underappreciated. Often underappreciated? Won an Oscar in the last decade. His first Oscar. Is it Spike Lee? Spike Lee. In 95.

What am I forgetting? Which movie this was? People kind of forget about this movie. Brooklyn? Nope. Great movie. It's not Clockers. Clockers!

Oh, you love Clockers. I've never seen Clockers. Great movie. Yeah. Based on Richard Price's novel. Starring Harvey Keitel and Mackay Pfeiffer. It is a bit of a forgotten Spike. It's really good.

Man, I'm just... All I can think about is what the seven murderer would do to jay sherman you know like he'd really so many sins he wouldn't know where to begin with jay sherman i think john lovitz fuck jay sherman by the way uh john lovitz is gonna sue us weirdly we're like spacey's gonna be after us. Spacey doesn't notice us love its issues and take down us. I just, I know what Jay Sherman would think of

what the seven killer would do to him. You'd think, I need to just say, he would think it stinks. He would think it stinks. I know you would think of the gluttony crime scene.

It stinks, I'm sure. I need to just get this out of my system. My father, like, avidly read the New York Post

when I was growing up. Yeah. Was a fiend for Page Six. Right. And I remember him excitedly telling me one morning that my dad would wake me up with news. Yes. You won't believe what I just read in the paper. Right. And it was what's her name? Janice Dickinson. Uh-huh. The supermodel.

Uh-huh. Wrote a tell-all book. Yeah. Listed all the men she'd slept with. Sure. She's the one who famously started the Liam Neeson has a huge penis thing. And said John Lovitz... Fell out of his pants. Jesus. Said John Lovitz was the best sex she ever had.

Absolutely outrageous. That's insane. I can never not think about it. Number six is Diane Keaton's... Diane Keaton's directorial effort, Unstrung Heroes. Oh, sure. You've got The Usual Suspectspect so it's the fall of Spacey

you got Hackers Hack the Planet you got Babe and you have Braveheart so two best picture nominees hanging out there at the bottom there and number 11 of course Ben and I's favorite film of 1995 Mortal Kombat

Mortal Kombat. Mortal Kombat! Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Hell yeah. This is like such middle school. This is like the start of middle school for me. That's what I'm saying. This is huge. And then Seven has a cool opening with the New Line logo.

But in Mortal Kombat, the New Line logo is accompanied by someone screaming, Mortal Kombat! So it's better. Sure. New Line should have done that for the full year, 95. Just every movie they released. They should do it for Lord of the Rings. They should.

Mortal Kombat! What has better fatalities, 7 or Mortal Kombat? That's a great question. Great question. I think Mortal Kombat's fatalities are really good. Yeah. I see them more so than 7. How do you think Scorpion got his name? How do you think Scorpion got his name?

How do I think Scorpion got his name? He probably, you know, went to AC, got a tattoo. Okay. All right. Call back to an off mic bit. Hey, Doughboys, thank you for being here.

Thank you so much for having us. Thank you for doing this. What a treat. I wish we could have made this happen in person, but lovely that we were at least in the same space. Next time. We've gotten something to...

Every time. Something to aspire to. The four of us combined, as this configuration, have done three Doughboys apps, three blank check apps, and we've never gotten all four of us in the same room at the same time.

That's right. It's true. Is that correct? It's fucked up. It's yet to happen. It's fucked up. It's genuinely fucked up. But Doughboys is the best podcast in the world of all time. It is. It's a mirror game. We say it all the time.

Truly feel it. It's the high watermark. Absolutely. Anyone who's not listening to it and listening to our show is dumb. Has their priorities out of whack hey Mitch it's Ben I've been watching the hell out of Twisted Metal

oh there you go it fucking rocks man Mitch is contractually Mitch can't say anything about that I appreciate that though I very much appreciate it I'm talking about the video game on PlayStation. You're just watching it?

Ben's watching Let's Play. I think it's allowed if it comes out of nowhere, right? It is a Ben-ass show, I will say, having seen it. Yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah, Ben. Thank you. You rule.

That rocks, Ben. I bet that's it. That's it. We're done. Yeah. Yay! Yay! Thank you, guys.

And yeah, we'll see you next week on Blank Check for the game with Brendan Hines. With Brendan Hines. Our old friend Brendan Hines returning to the show. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a fun app. That's a fun app. Yeah.

We recorded 15 years ago. I don't even know who I am anymore. Nope. Goodbye. I don't know why I'm taking this out. That's how this show ends. Exactly. Thank you all for listening.

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media helping to produce the show. Wags and I are going to go grab some lunch, but I think we're going to get some we're going to eat some pasta sauce.

And then kick each other in the stomach and see who can last longer. Thank you to JJ Birch for our research. Thank you to Lane Montgomery and the Great American Owl for our theme song,

AJ McKeon, and Alex Barron for our editing. Joe Bowen, Pat Reynolds for artwork. It's been a while since I've done this. You can go to

blankcheckpodcast.com for links to some real nerdy shit, including our Patreon, Blank Check Special Fe special features where we do franchise commentaries. We're doing the Pierce Brosnan bond movies right now. Uh, we'll also be doing a Fincher music video episode this month. I believe will be this month. Uh, I want to say this month.

I want to say this month. I want to say this month. But I also think we unlock Patreon episodes after three years. So soon to be unlocked are commentaries on the Alien franchise, which coincidentally times out pretty perfectly to us having just done Alien 3 again. And it is going to actually land next month in October. Well, look at that. A very spooky Fincher music video Halloween for all of you.

Tune in next week for The Game with Brandon Hines. And once again, I just want to say... Yeah. Talk about this.