Blank Check with Griffin & David - Silence of the Lambs with Emily Vanderwerff

Episode Date: January 12, 2020

The two friends are joined by prolific writer Emily Vanderweff  to talk about the most influential movie that BC has covered  - except for Fletch of course. It's so influential there are TOO MANY BITS!  What's Emily's take on what all Demme movies are about? What could Hannibal lector have looked like if it was a different actor? And a special shoutout to all our cannibal psychologist listeners! 

I A sense his takeer once tried to podcast me. I ate his pod with some cast beans and a nice podcasty. Started bad, got worse. 40 Fs. That's the Pete Holmes joke. You just sounded like you were a snake. Are you trying to hypnotize Mugly right now? I don't know how to do it. I just, I was, pretty good. It's the first, it's the top quote. I said, I'm gonna do the impression poorly. Let's just get it over with.

Cause it'll happen more over the course of the episode. I was trying to maybe pull off as we said, the rare move of the Clarissa into Hannibal. You look like a roo. The reverse Tomahawk. Right. I mean, Dr. Lector. Dr. I mean, Dr. Lector. Dr. Lector. Dr. Lector.

Is she a lot, Dr. Lector? I can say this because it's not transoratial for me to say this, but it puts the podcast on its skin. Yes. You know, or else it gets the pot again. I was thinking about that. I feel like that's an even harder voice to do. That's very fun to try and nail, but incredibly specific.

Great. It's so, yeah. They're very unusual. Oh, yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, A friend of mine, a pet cat! A pet cat! I just remember we delivered a pet cat in a wedding bag. Isn't it weird that that performance didn't win all four acting categories that year? Should have won all four. And also best director. Best bug. Yeah.

There should be a best supporting bug and then Vincent and I will figure out what it won that. It is crazy how like that movie comes out and everyone's like, Dinoff here's great in it. I mean, it's not a real performance, but he's great in it. And people even say that at the time.

I feel like they're like, Dinoff here gives a fun turn, a committed performance. I mean, it's not a real performance, but he's great-net. And then people even say that at the time. I feel like they're like, did not for a gives a fun turn, a committed performance? I feel like people were like really hung up on how gross he was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel like 20 years later, everyone kind of agrees,

like, oh no, that's one of the best pieces of acting in the history of American cinema. That is one of the most committed, full body performance has ever. Then did you read the, there was the big oral history with Barry Sonnenfeld. Yes.

It is incredible. And so he talked so much about the performance. And Rick Baker. Well, Rick Baker is like releasing his, by the time this episode comes out, we'll get a quarter of this. 18 months in advance. But is doing the like multi-volume hardcover book

of his entire career. And he's doing a panel at New York Comic Con tomorrow when we're recording this. If you want a time stamp, when this is being recorded, that is like he's doing his big career retrospective and Denofrio is moderating it. That sounds. And I was like, that's very telling to me

that like Rick Baker is like, that's one of my great collaborations. As Son and Feld to put this to sleep in that thing, he said like, he's doing Jack Houston. That's what Jack has in Chin Jack Houston. That's what Jack Yeah, in Chinatown. That's what Sonnenfeld realized when they filmed the pet cat scene It's what he said he literally I left something here a pet cat I found out Jay Leno host of CNBC's Jay Leno's garage

Of course, it's called follow up that. Jay Leno follows you on Twitter. When he like DMed me and was like, hey, it must have been like, I think it may have been a person who worked in his office. I can't imagine he runs his own way. Yeah, he probably like, there's no way. Did the message open with? Yeah. He's something.

Yeah. That's the first. Hey, man, what do you think about the same thing? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. He's calling you Kevin U-Base. He's a reason to know. He was like, can I come on? I think you're interesting. My podcast haven't recorded an episode of it. Like a year. This was real bad.

This was after I'd come out because he also dead name me and I was like, I'm sorry. We haven't done episode in the while. By the way, I go by Emily now. And like, whoever runs the J Leno Twitter account is like, I'm sorry. I'm like, keep up with my life, J Leno. What the fuck? But you are going to restart. I think you're interesting now. You have? You have. I got us, so I can have, and then I found that he like did a bunch of podcasts, and I think he was like trying to do Gorilla Marketing or whatever for his CNBC show.

Or Garage? Yeah, because he was on... J-L-G? He was on Gorilla for J-L-G? He was on one of the Jesse Thorn shows, he was on some of the other LA based interview podcasts. He was on WTF and he did a very, very normal, psychologically balanced interview in which he explained that he has never been competitive and only did what anyone else would do in that position.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, a job's open, you're not gonna hide in a closet and he's dropped out, I mean, come on. I did the same thing to anyone else with them. He's not competitive. He hasn't tweeted since August 28th. So he's not a big tweeter, I guess.

But yeah, I'm sure it's not like JLeno like sitting in his bathroom like me. Yeah. He was out there, but his account slid like Giffield into your DMs. Remember when the JLeno show premiered on NBC? Oh yeah, it's about time. And it was about time. It was about time. And it was about time.

It was about time. And Kanye was a believe the first guest. Yeah. And he got Kanye to like basically cry over like his mother and Taylor Swift and his mother and just right. Right, right. I make you cover week one of that. I made somebody cover week one of that.

I am almost certain that you made me cover week one of that. I'm not gonna put that up. Now I have to look it up. Ha, ha, ha, up. Let's find out. Talk about trauma. You, either I covered it or you asked and I couldn't do it. Now, because I know I can't find it. That is a thing.

I mean, I don't know if you folks watch the deleted scenes because the criterion DVD now has like 45 massive deleted scenes for this movie. And one of them, a Hannibal Lecter explains to Clary Starling that the trauma that Buffalo Bill experienced as a child that turned him into a psychopath was having to recap the J. Leno show for the A.B. Club. I actually, I was the one who wrote the first week. It was me.

It was you. It feels like the kind of thing you'd just be like, let me put this on my back. That was my first yet. Well, I mean, you know, I was avoiding a bunch of shit, but like that was my first fall as TV editor there. And I was like, I'm going to review every new show. And I was like, shit, that includes the J Lano show.

So like, I watched the first week of that. And then like, and my lead is like, I really thought this could be interesting. I'm like, what? Yeah, I mean, that was, I mean, every, every one was maybe had the blinders on there. Well, he was selling like, oh, we're going to rethink it because it's not late night anymore. It's going to be prime time. We're going to do more sketches. We're going to do more comedy bits. No desk. Just the tonight show. Right. It was just the tonight show, except there was no desk. And there was like some cars on the stage. Right.

There was at least two cars on the stage. Right, they had more field reporters. Yeah. Like they had like six Ross the interns. There was no desk and he ended it with the five big ones. Do you remember that? Of course. The final segment was.

Yeah, because I was in Kimmel mess with him was on the five big ones. And you know, they had the field reporters. They broke the Edward Snowden thing, like in the last few months of the show, they broke Edward Snowden and then like, yeah, it was their contribution. NBC was like, good work. You get the tonight show back. That's, that's what Citizen 4 is about.

Yeah, that's why Jaylenoh has the Pulitzer. Yeah. So let it. Then he's like, what are you saying about this? All right. All right. Turn the camera on. So whistle blow.

I hardly know that. All right, all right, All right. I'm gonna turn the camera on. I said whistle blow, I hardly know that. All right, all right, all right. I'm genuinely out. What ringing the bell? Wow. Is that the bit bell? It was the bit bell and it's now closed.

Too many bits. Too many bits, the market is closed. Hello everybody, my name's Griffin Newman. My name is David Sins. Blank check with Griffin and David, of course. That's true. It's podcast about filmography. It's directors who have massive success early on in their careers,

giving a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want, sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, maybe. Sometimes they look like a rooob. That's true. We're doing me series on the films of Jonathan Demi. His hold, stop making podcasts. Yes, rude. And today we are discussing the movie. The movie. The movie.

The movie. I mean, I was thinking, I was like, this is one of the best movies we will ever cover on the podcast. We could do this podcast for 20 more years. That is correct. And we will never cover above single digits movies greater than that. Right. I think this is the most influential movie you've ever covered. Maybe the Matrix say maybe like the Matrix or Star Wars. But

it's certainly in terms of sureflatch. Right. In terms of things, maybe you don't even realize her influential. And then when you watch it, you're like, oh, of course. This is all of television. Yeah, it's all of television. It's everything. It's all of podcasting. It's everything. Yeah, all true kind of.

I was watching this last night and gang stressed out of being like, oh, fuck, I'm like now reckoning with how big an episode this is, how big it is that we're going to cover this movie. It's also a movie that I've seen many times. And for a movie about a couple serial killers who like to eat and or tear the flesh off of people. It's extremely rewatchable and kind of comforting. I'm so anytime I throw it on, I'm like, oh, this is great. Yeah, yeah, can't wait for Clarice to have another very charged and emotional conversation with the

psychopath. I was like worried. I wasn wasn't gonna like it as much this time. For reasons we'll probably delve into, but also because I've seen it so many times. Sure, yeah. That I was like, oh, I had this so too familiar to me because the thrillers often, you need that element of newness, but like, no, this movie's fucking great. Yes, it is.

I had seen this movie once before. What? I saw it when I was in high school. Sorry for yelling. Yeah. But I saw this movie like 15 years ago, loved it, remembered it almost shot for shot. It's very memorable.

It was one of those things where I was like, I have not watched this in 15 years and every bit of this is like totally stuck, vividly in my brain. But it also was one of those movies where when I watched it when I was 15 and I watched a probably cable fucking full screen or whatever, right? I was like, well, I mean, it's gonna be diminished because like I've grown up in a post-sounds the lambs climate.

I had seen it only after Red Dragon and Hannibal and Hannibal rising had come out. It's a career film, it's all three, of course. But I was like, this is gonna be perfected This is gonna be one of those things where I see the movie and I appreciate it But obviously it's lost some of its power because it's been parodied so much and you've had diminishing returns and the sequels and whatever And then I watched it and I was like this is fucking terrifying It feels like it was made an hour ago This is like searing and it stuck in my brain for 15 years and I watched it last night And I was like why don't I watch this every week?

Aside from the fact that it is heavy, I have the blue. I have the criterion. The blue is fantastic. For tire criterion. Yes, yes. Yes, I bought the blue the last time there was a criterion sale knowing that Demi was coming up. It is a movie that benefits from extremely high quality picture.

Cool. And I was sort of like watching after this, I'm not watching, I was going through a Blu-ray review sites that were comparing every home video version of the movie. And this, the jump in quality on this blue is like, it looks fucking incredible. And you realize that the previous like MGM releases were kind of crummy. It is staggering that this movie did not get an Oscar or nomination for cinematography.

Despite the huge Oscar success. I know, one of the most insane Oscar snubs considering that like the Prince of Tides was nominated for Best Cinematography. No offense to the Prince of Tides. It is a fine, like, movie. But it is stunning when you go like this, is one of only three movies in history

to win quote unquote thequote the big five. To win picture director, actor, actress, screenplay. And then it only had two additional nominations beyond that. That sounds right. And you watch this movie and you're like every single element of this film is so perfect and it's so like film school in a box for that respect of craft that you're like, how did not get cinematography? How did not get score?

Incredible score. How did not win editing? How did not win sound? But the story of the sounds of the Lambsis and Oscar movie is like, it will never be replicated. It's been it's, it's very strange. And I think that you called like two years ago, you thought get out was gonna have the sounds of the lambs.

I don't think it was, did I think it was gonna win the... You thought it was gonna win, you predicted that and you predicted it on microphone and you were like, I think it's gonna be the thing that happened with songs of the lambs. Right, right, right, right, right. It came close. It came close. I mean, one in Oscar, it was nominated for Stuff in the... But it was the same thing of like... But also that was like an unprecedented, incredible year for movies.

It turned out, like 2017. I will say, I think it lost editing to JFK. Yes. I might give JFK that one. That is fair. JFK has I think it lost editing to JFK. I might give that way. That is. JFK has famous editing. Right. That is fair. And JFK was the assumed best picture juggernaut of that year. It was I think the most nominated. It was a huge success. Oliver Stone had already directed a best picture and had one two best directors. Correct. And it had come out in Christmas time. And you know, it was, and it had a

zillion famous people in it. And John Williams, favorite movie star. The star at the cause. America's favorite movie star, John F. Kennedy. And yeah, I know I had the cause. And then I think that, so that movie was like barreling towards expected success. And the silence of the lambs came out February right it came out on Valentine's Day in night of that year I'm so exactly the same as get out right and

Did really well or what but it was like a sleeper film. Yeah, it was you know a trashy genre movie like to write like a paper Right based on like a whole paper. The genre they respect the least on a percent. And so there's all that sort of counted against it. And I think what happened was the JFK kind of got hobbled by the backlash of like, is this for real? Oliver Stone is a crack pot. Like all that started 30 effect started bubbling up. And then also Oliver Stone had like one Oscars already. Like it's not like there's some, right.

Yeah. And then I think, yeah, it just, it like silence became everyone was just like, you know what? It's really good. It was kind of like once JFK got hobbled. This is Emily Vanderwerf by the way. Oh yeah, I was gonna build to it. Cause I was gonna build a bridge to a point I wanted to make. Yeah, but then he's talking about Oscars.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're in it. You're in it. Emily Vanderwerf from Vox, from the Munich episode, from the Allison Wonderland episode. Thank you for recovering from a footerwack and exposure and rallying enough. I had it usually takes people about six to eight months. It's like monos. Close footerwack.

I had to like, I went through a thing where I had to watch it once a day. Of course, down to once a week. Right, right right now I'm down to once a month I think and then and then you just have to want a methadone you have to watch some else for the looking glass clips like you can sort of start to to like you have to fuck with time a little bit but I do think that when the Oscars when JFK got got sort of hobbled they weren't going to go for I think the other nominees were bugsy and Prince of tides they They weren't gonna go for I think the other nominees were Bugsie and Prince of Tides They weren't gonna go for those sure those were like didn't have the reviews

So it was between Silence of the Lambs and Beauty and the Beast and weirdly silence of the Lambs is the more Oscar in movie with those two What a fucking five. It's a great that is Insane the good five because Bugsie is fun Bugsie is kind of down the middle right and you know what I said corrected It's not a genre but animation is the only typo film they respect less than horror because Bugsie is fun. Bugsie's kind of down the middle. Right. And you know what, I stand corrected. It's not a genre, but animation is the only type of film they respect less than horror.

100%. I mean, I believe the concept of the time was that it's nomination was its reward. The year is a breakthrough nomination for an animated film. Right. Two director nominees were non-picture directors. Even though both those films probably should have been nominated for best picture.

Can you tell me? So beating the beast doesn't get a picture nomination, and it's true. I'm sorry, correct. And Streisand doesn't get a picture. Right, which is a big deal. Which is a big deal. People made a fuss about correctly.

Right, the movie directed itself. Okay, so it's Demi. But the reason Streisand didn't get a best director nomination is because of the two people who came in. So the year's 1991. 1991. It is 1991 two people who came in. So the year's 1991. 1991. Yeah, it's 1991.

Two people come in. One is the youngest best director nominee of a phenomenon. Right. And the first African American nominee and best director. Correct. The other is director. He's 26. I think he was 24.

That's God. The other RIP, Johnson. Yeah. The other is a guy who is a very established director who's a big deal Who made a gigantic hit that was a cultural phenomenon and it can't believe it wasn't nominated for best picture But he did get the best director nomination Interesting and and has he had other director nominations or winters this like his wife plenty of nominations He's never won plenty nominations. Oh fuck a film on Louise

this like his wife. Plenty of nominations, he's never won. Plenty of nominations. Oh fuck, a Thelma Louise. For this guy. Oh. Like that Thelma Louise wasn't nominated is bizarre. Very weird. Very weird.

Like they had to get the Prince of Tides in there. Like Thelma Louise was like a sensation. Two lead actress noms, which is insane. Right. I think that is so difficult to pull off two actors in one shared lead category. Yeah. So during the people fuck with yeah. They like Gina Davis's really supporting. Right. Right. Well, like Prince of Tides and and Bugsy and JFK to some extent where the movie's everyone was like

they're going to be the big Oscar players. But the thing that happens where it's like months in advance. Right. Right. And then they kind of slid in and like science of the lamps was the movie people actually loved. It was the movie. I think at the end of that happens where it's like month in advance. Right, right. And then they kind of slid in and like, science of the lampshows the movie people actually loved. It was the movie I think at the end of the day, everyone was like, you know what? Right, I remember that movie. It was a year ago now and I still remember it.

But it also, it is that thing where like, you know, we'll get into all the an integrated of the movie and we'll talk about the controversy isn't all of that, but just taken as a piece of narrative visual storytelling, it is pretty unimpeachable. It is dark and profound and full of really interesting themes, some of which are from the books,

some of which are original to the movie, but it's also like great popcorn filmmaking. That's so watchable. It's so thoroughly watchable, but I'm just gonna restate. You can take any single element from this film and use it as a teaching tool of like, this is how you do this.

This is screen acting. This is screen writing. This is cinematography. This is editing. This is sound mix, you know? This is set design. All of it. Yeah.

Yeah. The cost, like everything is just like, I mean, and I forgot just fucking how stacked is where it's like, right, like Demi, like, discovers like Colleen Atwood, you know? Pretty much like, like, made her. Casey Lemons is in it. Right. Right.

Right. Uh, uh, uh, uh, Christie Zia is the production designer. Like everyone on this is just like, people who are like, just fully coming into their power. That thing that is so exciting to watch, we're like, everyone involved in this movie is just figuring out how to do the first perfect job of their power. That thing that is so exciting to watch, we're like, everyone involved in this movie is just figuring out how to do the first perfect job of their career. It's pretty like, it does just feel like that lightning and a bottle thing. Sure. And the way that we've been like going through Demi and order like this, it is so exciting

to watch like, oh, he's just built it all up. Sure. And use, look, this movie could have been directed by Ridley Scott or someone, and it would be a different movie. It would probably be more of a hard-boiled movie. And it would not have that empathy and attention to character, like, this is like, Demi's got all these tools that I feel like a director, another director would not have been able to use for this. All Ridley Scott made his handle movie.

I have this, I'd love to hear you in and this griffin. I have this sort of pet theory that people who are really good at comedy are usually really good at horror. I agree 100% and vice versa. Yes, I agree 100%. Jordan Peele.

Yes, Jordan Peele. But I also think it is one of the reasons why, by and large, many of the best superhero movies have come from horror directors. I think it is that very specific sort of tonal balancing act. You know? Shazam. Shazam, the rainy Spider-Man films,

James Wan has acquitted himself well. He made a Spider-Man. Yes. But the man of Aqua. Yes. But I think, you know, superhero films are this very tricky balancing act of tone and control

and, you know, a mix of humor and tension action, all of that. Sure. But that's, yes. Comedy and horror are the two genres where the director needs to have complete control of the dial and know how to sort of turn it on the audience. Because you're asking the audience to have a very specific emotional involuntary reaction

on a scene by scene basis. It's about that build and release and that sort of like, God, the fucking camera work in this movie. I mean, not just like... Ben and I were talking about it. The photography itself, but you just go like, this is, just mute this film. You know? You could just teach an entire semester to film school

that is this film muted every week, you just watch it. And it's like, his camera is so. There's medium shots. But also all the camera movements are so expressive without being overly showy. The look of the film, I mean, I feel like this is the fundamental mistake that Ridley Scott made where he's like, oh, we should make it look terrifying

because Hannibal Lecter's terrifying. And the thing that's incredible that this movie is it looks kind of bad out. Sure. Yeah, well, it's about real people. It's a photographer, but it's not very stylized. I'm not picturesque. Yes, 100%.

I do think the problem with Hannibal is one that book is so graphic. It's termed. He's a garbage. Yes, right, like purple, right? And Demi famously of course reads that book and is like, oh, not into this. Right. So and Joe Foster says the same. Yes. And anti-Afghan is like, so 25 million dollars. And it's in the bank account. All right. Right. Cool. So the book is already nudging things in that direction. But yeah, and also the book has the

problem of like Hannibal is very effective when he's in prison. Yes. And it's a little less effective when he's just is. So many Italian betrayers. We're gonna try and eat another person. Right. What if I wore a $5? Obviously the TV show eventually figured out how to,

but that's a cage Hannibal in a way too, because he's like trying to operate. Yeah, it looks like that show, when they finally had him, it's his three, when he was finally on the loose, and everyone knew his secret and all of that. Yes. That was that's the interesting.

That's section of the shows when it's at its least. Yeah, and it's also when they were like, I don't know, every shot should look like a kaleidoscope, like when they start being like, let's make the show just look so crazy that that'll sort of, you know, sustain the mood. Do you have something I feel like I've never acknowledged on the podcast that I feel like better than ever. The Euro-psychiatrists who eats people? Well, I guess that of course is true, and for that reason this movie is... Should I keep that in? I keep it in trouble. A representation matter. Exactly. Thank you. You get it. Cannibal psychiatrists. Go on. So what's the thing? Emily, this was the bridge I was going to make in order to introduce you, but it took me 30 minutes to talk.

It's not the bridge. But I was last night while watching the movie, curious to see, because, you know, as you said, since the last time you were on this podcast, you have come out and transitioned. Yes. And you very early on said to us, you would like to talk about this movie because that is the sort of messy part of this film's legacy. Is it's relationship to the trans community? So I was curious going into it to see

if you had tweeted about this film prior to your coming out because you have written so well in the last year about sort of the years of you living sort of in denial with it. Right. It's suppressing the voice inside of you, the part of you that knew to some degree always who you were.

Sure. And that in the last year, it's sort of been, you know, letting yourself actually be the person. Yeah, it's just you always be. You're always viewing everything all over the place. Right. Right. And you're writing on the subject.

It's been incredible. And you're writing on the subject has been incredible. Thank you. But I was interested to try to find, if you had public statements about this film on Twitter before this year. And a lot of them are the things like, I can't believe this didn't get us in a photography nomination when Demi passed.

You're sort of tweeting about him. He's one of my favorite filmmakers. Right. So that's what I was finding. More and more just you talk about him being one of your favorite filmmakers. But also I'd forgotten that you were one of the loudest drum bangers during March, Matt. Oh, yeah. You were a huge fucking like you always on the Demi trainer. I was always on the Demi train. I was like, he's never going to win. And then he kept going. Do do the search search David, because they're literally like 80 tweets. There are four separate threads that are Emily.

Just like hardcore campaigning, making the argument, watching it like vote by vote saying like, I know he's not gonna make it past this. I like this one though. I think Don Jonathan Demi should direct the halftime show next year. It's a good. That's a great one. I was just thinking about, you know, how they kept trying to make that gambit movie for years and years. Jonathan Demi would have directed the hell out of a gambit movie. Oh shit. A lot of like Louisiana color. You know what I mean? A lot of local Cajun kind of like, right. Yeah. It would have been like his last film. It would have been his last film. If you guys went from Ricky in the flash to gambit, right. And then he passed. Yeah. That's the if gambit had met, it's a original release date and they had hired Jonathan Demi,

it would have been his last film. He would have gotten him made under the wire. Yeah. But I am curious, I mean, you know, you saying you were a little bit worried going into your viewing of this movie, how you were gonna view it through a new lens. How did it sort of change for you

or did it not as much as you feared or thought it might? I will admit that some of the, it's not even like trans representation because it's a different idea of what gender transition could mean. And the movie makes that very clear, which I had forgot. Yeah, the movie has dialogue mostly from Dr. Hannibal Lecter who has a PhD in psychiatry. Mm-hmm.

And a PhD in eating people. Right. I forgot that the film. We got that from an underground university. The film has the most intelligent character, even if he is a... Piosycopath. Cannibal psychopath, right?

Sure. Clearly say he is not a transactual. Right. Yes. Right. That it's more like he thinks that's what's going on with him, but it's it's more he's crazy and wants to. It's a sort of misplaced. A lot of trauma.

Right. He wants to sort of be out of his own skin. But at the same time, and I'm going to have more to say about this. I'm sure throughout the episode, but I got the same time it flirts with all this iconography of trans people, of transition in ways that like made me uncomfortable. But here's where I think this succeeds in the way that a lot of other trans murderers. This is a trope. Have not succeeded, which is Jonathan Demi is such a humane director.

He gives Buffalo Bill his humanity. It's a diseased and horrible humanity, but he is a person. He is not a twisted free. He's not a boogie man. It's actually kind of my structures. The thing that got the movie in trouble in a way is that he has those segments that are just Buffalo Bill. And those are the segments that I feel like people obviously glombed onto them most. And if he had just kind of like, you know, excise that. Yeah. And whatever bills just not really a character except something that someone talked people talk about, then maybe the movie would be worse, I think, but also regarded differently. I don't know.

Well, I don't want to be flipping about it, but the thing that was striking me watching it, especially because I had forgotten that they outlined in language so clearly and sort of consistently trying to define like, this is not transactual or not saying, I mean, there's even that line where she says like, transactuals are docile. They're passing. Yeah, you know, but like, they very clearly say like, that does not fit a behavioral pattern. Yeah. So the movie goes to lengths to try to make that distinction clear, but the thing that is sort of out of the movie goes to lengths to try to make that distinction clear, but the thing that is sort of out of the movie's control is the fact that it became such a phenomenon.

That's the thing. I mean, it's sort of right. I mean, I don't think the movie would have had that amount of blowback had it been like a $40 million sort of like, you know, on the level of like manhunter in terms of like critical recognition. But the fact that it became like this big blockbuster phenomenon and then a best picture winner means that like, well now you have like a lot of dumb people watching that.

Sure, there's a different responsibility to that. Right, right. I mean, it's like the whole thing that like comes in a play with like the, the, the, destroying culture once and for all, is that like you're in a very different position if you're making a movie for $60 million that you know is gonna be released like a blockbuster.

Versus a movie like this, where clearly no one involved thought that this was gonna be some like, like four quadrants. I mean to the point that Dilarentis who owned the rights, and had made manhunter was like, yeah, I don't care. He's like, let me give you some advice.

Don't make Hannibal Lecter movies. Right, right. And then this is a hit. Dilarentis was like, yeah, I don't care. He's like, let me give you my advice. Don't make Hannibal Lecter movies. Right, right. And then this is a hit and Dilarentis was like, I've always owned all the Hannibal rights in their mind. Yeah. And we want to be clear, we're recording this before it comes out. It's coming out long after a nation has taken form.

That's the thing. Yeah, we were recording this. The day of like Thursday night previews or whatever. Right, the last day before New York City burns to the ground. It's also like around the impeachment and the fact that Trump is like tweeting about how like militias are gonna rise up and it's just like it's truly a terrible thing. Right and all of some militias are being installed at theaters playing. I also feel like every other president you'll hear that they like you know asked

requested a film print. Want to watch movies? Sure. Trump seems so disinterested in everything. I don't think he's watched a single film. Well, he famously has a short attention span and his favorite movie is Bloodsport with the dialogue cut out or whatever. There was that weird anecdote. It was like, it's Bloodsport, but Eric fast-forward through the non-fighting speed.

No, his favorite movie is Sys and Kain because it's about a very, very wealthy man who may have beautiful women. Right, it's a great life. And live a long life. You've seen that interview where he says that, right? I mean, he's just like, it's about a very, very wealthy man who may have beautiful women. Right, it's a great life and live a long life. You see that interview where he says that, right? I mean, he's just like, it's incredible, the things that I accomplish. I wrote about it.

I wrote about it for Vox in the summer of 2015. Yeah. And he was still like a curiosity. Yeah. And I was like, oh, look at this, isn't this weird? And there was like, oh, fuck. Right. There's a thing here that's a really unironic person.

Yeah. But, I mean, this sort of gets into the silence of the lambs thing where it's like someone that dumb can watch Citizen Kane and go like, this is an aspirational story of the American dream of a man ascending to power, success, and love and adoration. When it's very clear that the film presents him as a villain and is about how he died feeling totally empty inside. Right. And so in the same way, Sans the Lambs comes out and it doesn't matter if you have characters go like, this character is not trans. Trans people do not behave this way. This is not a pattern.

Sure. Because it's still like the dumbest people view it how they want to. And then as you said, so much of it is that the iconography of this character gets reappropriated into other things. Like you think about how many homophobic 90s studio comedies make Buffalo Bill jokes to some extent or another. It's also just wild that this film, which has Clory Starling, incredibly iconic character, Hannibal Lecter, and Craig. Yeah. Also has Buffalo Bill, who becomes an incredibly iconic character, yeah, in his own right. Right, three characters that like, you can dress up like them.

Sure. You can like, put them in your pocket. You can do all of it. All of it. Yeah. It is so bizarre. Well, so here's a question for you. When you saw this movie,

when it came out, when you saw this movie in the years since as you've rewatched it, how did those elements play to you saw this movie in the years since, as you've rewatched it, how did those elements play to you in a point in your life where you were sort of fighting your own transness? Interesting. So the first time I saw this was probably high school.

And the controversy around this movie had filtered down to me as like gay people are mad at it. Yeah, sure. And like, I became more of just a general LGBT community. Yeah. So, so you saw it knowing there was, I know, like I knew, because I knew, I think the first dummy movie I ever saw was Philadelphia.

Okay. And I knew that he had made that, okay, because people, he was like, I want to make a movie that has positive gay representation. Right. So you saw it post Philadelphia. Yeah.

Yeah. I saw it probably 96, 97 with a girlfriend or whatever. And like, that was at a time when I was like not aware of these things within myself, but I was also like, anytime I read a thing where like somebody magically transformed into a woman, I was like, let's see how does that work. You have like a how-to somewhere. So I watched this and like, but I just, I think I really just thought of him as a gay man. I really do. Cause those two things got conflated. Cause I remember in high school, I spent a lot of time being like, I think I'm gay. I think I'm gay.

Uh-huh. But I was like, but I just, man, I don't think they're very attractive. And that seems like a prerequisite. Right. Right. Right. You knew there was. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 2019. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, if David Train is like, stall, they gotta get some coal and put it back in. It's something. But yeah, so I was like, I didn't understand what it meant to be gay. And like, there was this idea that like,

gayness and transness were kind of the same thing. It's right, just like a general otherness. And yeah, right. Yeah, so like the fact that I was primarily attracted to women was just like a thing that got in the way of me figuring a lot of this out. So I think I, when I first saw it, I really didn't know it. And I rewatched it maybe four or five years ago. And I was like, Oh, yeah. Okay. But I also was like less offended by it than I thought I was going to be

every time I watch it. I'm like, right. This guy is not the worst example of this trope. It's because one of the better examples of this trope. And like, because Demi is such an empathetic filmmaker, like you said, you know, that really is part of it. That can be murderers, like we can be murderers if we want to. We can put that knife away. You don't care about anything. I can take out a box of moths.

Um, no, but it is, I mean, you know, I think that comes in and play obviously with the Buffalo Bill character. He could not control the way the movie sort of got taken away from him and, you know, given to the culture at large. In the way we're like, yeah, I think a lot of the negative impressions, I think about how many fucking like Buffalo Bill impressions are, like problematic, you know, or like scenes where people do the talk or whatever it is. Like the elements from this have been stripped and sort of repurposed in a way that does feel negative.

Like the really bad version of this is the Danish girl. Literally. Right. That is the way that reappropriates a lot of this image in a way it thinks is supportive and is horribly horribly transphobic. Right. I could not stop thinking aboutappropriates a lot of this image in a way it thinks is supportive and is horribly horribly Right. I could not stop thinking about the Danish girl while watching this really interesting I have not thought about the Danish girl again because I took a serious psychological action to bar it for my Manning.

Genuinely like reclosited me. Because like I saw it right around when it came out and I was like I was at Vox so I was finally like I had a little Security and I was like yeah I could start thinking about this gender stuff and I saw the Danish I was like, I was at Vox, so I was finally like, I had a little security and I was like, yeah. I could start thinking about this gender stuff and I saw the Danish girls like, no, no. I can't do that. I can't do that. I was like, well, no, it's not this.

Whatever this is, it's not what I'm gonna be. I'm gonna represent it. Yeah, yeah. That's such a terrible movie on both levels. That's why I was thinking, because that's like the most sort of consciously Oscar-Bady sort of movie and a movie that is going to such great pains

to tell itself that it's being empathetic and humanist and sort of thoughtful and caring about it. And is it a movie that just seems to have no insight into its characters, no understanding, feels genuinely very exploitative and very unrepresented, everything I've heard from any transfers I've ever spoken to or red work from anything. Right.

And also it's performance is terrible. It is, performance is so fucking bad. It is really hard. It's really hard to be cis and understand what it is to be trans. Yeah. It's just like a gap and I wrote a lot, I wrote about the judge read an alley. Yes. I wrote about Jeffrey Tamron and I think he got close.

Yeah. For what a monster person he is. I think he got close, but he still was like, there was an element of, I am copying a thing. I'm saying other people do it, which is acting. Just acting, sure, or the element of acting. The problem is that acting is so close to what society thinks trans people are doing. Yes.

That then it becomes like, oh, you're just, you know, you're Jared Leto and Dallas Byers Club. Right, I know. Terrible. Yeah. I was like, here's the thing I was thinking of. When I first dropped out of college and was auditioning for stuff, I had Law and Order S for U audition that was to play a trans girl where they were only seeing cis men to play

the role. And there was like 15 sentences in the email devoted to like, we want to be clear, the character is not gay, it is not a cross-dresser. Okay. Like they were like people are like reading the sides and not getting it. Because the concept was sort of like, in the media up until that point,

so often just as you said, presented as, oh, this is someone playing a woman. You know? Yeah. That there wasn't really empathetic, sort of well-rounded trans characters in media and that people I guess were coming in for the audition and going like, oh, it's like a drag queen, right?

Like that's what it is. Right, right. Even when you see like Felicity Huffman in Trans America who's okay, there's still like a real focus on like, oh, she's got a penis. Like, it's, you know, it's a fetishistic, gauquery thing that Demi just, because of the nature of the kind of filmmaker he is,

I don't think he had special insight into transgender people or gay people or anything. I think that he just like understood that Buffalo Bill was in pain. Buffalo Bill wanted something other than what he was. Buffalo Bill could not transcend himself. And like, he depicted that and he got, I don't want to say he got closer to depicting their trans experience because he didn't, but he got like, he got an element of it in a really weird and twisted way. I think, yeah, I think, you know, as you're saying,

the baseline empathy from which he always operates gives, yeah, I think, you know, as you're saying, the baseline empathy from which he always operates gives him a major leg up, you know? And that's something you can't really like develop in the way you can develop your skills as a visual filmmaker. He was born with, you know, by all accounts, a greater sort of pool,

a greater depth of emotional sort of understanding than most people. So that's, you know, really his special sauce as a director is that he comes into it with that strength as a person. But I think the other element is when you read interviews with Demi, as I've been reading more and more stuff for this podcast, watching interviews with him and stuff. I went on this in the commentary, forgot to. I was going to, and it's him.

It's him and, and, and, and, and the FBI guy's him. It's him and. Foster. And. Foster and the FBI guy. And Hopkins. It's like five of them. Yeah. Um, but he is for, you know, the people who are viewed as like major kind of like Autorist filmmakers. Certainly the people who have won the Oscar.

Most of the people we've covered on this podcast, he might have the least ego of all of them or hat. Right. Right. Right. And he talks so openly about like, I hire people who know what they're doing better than I do. I give them a lot of free reign. You know, if I hire a cinematographer, it's because I know I'm not a cinematographer. I'm not trying to impose my thoughts on them. I'm collaborative, but like if someone's doing something good, I want them to take all the credit for it. And I think, you know, by an extension of that, he is very good or was very good at knowing what he didn't know and understanding what he could not inherently understand, so that he could hand those elements over to other people and not just try to sort of, you know, impress his perception of things over the entire film.

One of the complaints against Demi and the March Madness in the Reddit, and I think Alex Ross Perry made this argument, is that he doesn't have a big footprint. I'm going to, yes. And I think that he doesn't have a signature like shot, he doesn't have a signature shooting style. He has a signature shot. He has a close up shot. I think the, but the caran have a signature like shot. He doesn't have a signature shooting style. I would say he has a signature shot. He has a close up. I think the first person is very sorry.

I think he has a signature. I think the close-ups feed into his signature approach. Which is all of his movies are about the transactional nature of human relationships. And he understands that every scene is between two people and it's about who's giving and who's taking and who's getting and who's, you know. I mean, this is his masterpiece in that regard.

And like that, like he realizes this is a horror movie, but it's a horror movie about the banality of like horror and like how it's just horror is always just two people and one is stabbing somebody. If I can quote you to you and read a couple of your tweets from earlier this year when you were banging the demi-dram and this was directly in response to this, right? I mean, you were pointing out like, you know, people saying he doesn't fit in as a blank check director. He feels so terribly about the LGBT pushback tons of lambs. He commits this to a studio to fund the first major studio fund about the AIDS crisis. And it wins Tom Hanks and Oscar. And it's a hit.

Philadelphia and perfect, but it's a blank check that clears the airtight argument there, right? Yes. But then as you sort of said here, what is Demi Signature? What makes him interesting? Demi is one of the most radically human and empathetic directors who have ever lived. He loves humans and the shit we do in all our strength and all our weaknesses.

Demi is a director who, whenever, whatever he tried, he could do it. Music videos, documentaries, features, TV pilots, live TV, he just thought people were fasting and made great art accordingly. It is very appropriate PTA, the DNA space of Demi and Altman loves him. So now, I think that's a really other strong point when people talk about like, why doesn't he have a signature style, which

I disagree with a little bit, not disagree with you, but the people who say that. It's not, it's not a Scorsese style. No, it's not showy. Well, I think that's the big point is that it's not that he was a chameleon who adapted to whatever he was doing, but he tried to engage with the material first as a human and then figured out the style that best benefited the story and being told in the most sort of emotionally intelligent way possible. Right. So you look at sounds the lambs, which is very stylish in a lot of ways,

but also compared to most crime thrillers, most movies of this ilk feels so stripped down in almost neorealist. Yes. When in fact there is a lot of crazy heightened elements in terms of the actual filmmaking of what he's doing. But it's like, you know, that's me eating something.

He never has a camera movement that isn't entirely motivated. I love his camera movements though. You know, and it's like he's just like this really fucking elegant magician where it's like, I'm just gonna bring your eyes right over to the thing that you need to pay attention to right at this moment. His camera movements in this movie are always, I don't want to look at this thing, but I have to look at this. Sure, sure, sure. He hangs back and then goes, and you even feel the tension in the sort of, I mean, it's a lot of handheld movements, you know? And they're fairly smooth, but you can feel the actual

physical presence of a person who's reluctant to be lurking or just swinging around to you. I mean, it's also has like one of most iconic, like five of the most like the shot of her in the elevator, that opening, you know, very right at the opening, surrounded by the boys and she's very, she's a short person, Jody Foster. Very low. The like, you know, the shot of any shot of like Hannibal leaning in. Yeah. When you see him in the like reflected in the glass and I think like, but that's like another

thing that's kind of stunning about this movie that I was like, I'm gonna like roll my eyes a little bit watching it now, which is it has now become such a big thing for, you know, straight white male directors to make movies about the way that women are impressed within society. Sure. To be like, look, I get it.

And very often, even if their intentions are correct, it's like they put their foot on the gas way too hard. Yeah. And this is a movie where like every single scene is affected by the fact that she's a woman, but it's almost always affected in terms of body language or in terms of blocking.

It is very rarely directly stated in the text of the script. This whole movie, its theme is again, transactional relationships between men and women and it never says anything about it. It's just like this is a movie about what it is to be a woman in this world. Which I love in her relationship with the Scotland character.

Where in the book is sexual, in the book they have more of like an affair and he takes that out of the movie. I don't know if him or Ted Talley decided to do that, but like that's not in this movie. But like, no, they neither of them ever acknowledge where he, I mean, there's that one scene where he kind of acknowledges, like, yes, I'm using you to excite, like,

Dirk, because I know you will. And like most of my guys, he would just shut down. He says that. Yes. You're, you're pretty in a way where he will at least give you the time of that. But she never like has a speech where she's like, you use me, which like, you know, like so many movies would have that moment

where she sort of like wax her finger in his face. No, and that's the, what are you gonna do? The only other moment that makes it explicit is the moment when they're in the car driving back after they do the autopsy. And Scott Glenn's like taking a nap and then he wakes up and is like, I really upset you back there when I said the thing about us not discussing in front of women, right? And she was like, yeah, and he's like,

you understand, I just had to throw these guys off my set and she was like, it matters what you say. He's great. I mean, she's amazing, I'm just like, but like what a perfect scene and what a great encapsulation of Demi, which is like, it matters what you say. Like in an era where people get so defensive

when their work is criticized, Demi took the sort of, the complaints about Sans the Lams and was like, I'm gonna make an entire movie to try to positively counter the effects. Is? Of what this might have done in terms of LGBT perception. His conclusion from this was he wasn't ashamed of the effects. His of what this might have done in terms of LGBT perception. His conclusion from this was he wasn't ashamed of Buffalo Bill.

He didn't think of Buffalo Bill as like an agai trans bisexual whatever. But he was like, I didn't realize how many how few positive representations of gay people there are. I'm going to make one. Right. Like what a dude. Right guy. Right.

I did want to like you talking, so I watched this movie a lot when after I first saw it. And like I, when I sort of when I was coming out, I was like, I used to watch the Matrix a lot. I wonder if that was anything. So when I was watching this last night, and it was, as a matter of fact, when I was watching this last night,

I was like, I watched this a lot that I feel something for Buffalo. And I was like, no, I- It was for Clarisse. When I saw Clarisse, I was like, oh, this is how I perceive the world, but of course I didn't fucking know that. I was like, I watched this a lot, did I feel something for Buffalo? And I was like, no, I, it was for Clarice. When I saw Clarice, I was like, oh, this is how I perceive the world, but of course I didn't fucking know that. I was like, 15, but it was just like,

oh, I get this. Yeah, I get how she sees the world, how she interacts with it. Yeah, and how the world interacts with her. I mean, the movie is so good at like, anytime she walks into a room room without overstating it, without cutting to a bunch of closeups, without having dialogue and making too much of a meal out of it, really showing the way the temperature of the room changes, whether it's because

these guys are sexually attracted to her, whether it's because they can't believe that she's in this room. She seems unqualified. Right. They think she's at in this room. Yeah, like she seems unqualified. Right. They think she's at risk. They're intimidated by her. Whatever it is, every scene is people in some way being affected by the fact that she seems so outside of the person who is usually doing this job.

Have you guys talked about Foster on this show at all? Because this is like, she goes hard after this. I never thought we've covered a Foster before. I mean, is that possible? Is that possible? We've never covered a Foster. I feel like we haven't. I know we've covered a foster before. Is that possible? Is that possible? We've never covered a foster. I feel like we haven't. I don't believe so.

Talk about her. Let's take a quick look at her, Photography No. We've not. I mean, it's crazy because this is her second Oscar. It is, yes. You know, and someone where like the first Oscar was like, oh, that's nice.

She graduated. She's not child star anymore. Right, right. But also it was somewhat of a surprise, she was pretty young winner. Yeah. Yeah. And then just three years later, she wins a second Oscar because it's kind of like

undeniable. Yeah, I mean, I don't like Hank's performance in Forest Gump. Yeah. But he won the Oscar and I think he won the Oscar because people were like, well, I mean, that movie is him, he has to win. Right, right. You know, like even though he just won, sometimes those multiple well, I mean, that movie is him, he has to win, right? Right. Even though he just won.

Sometimes those multiple winners, I mean, Gavin Spacey being another one. We're like, you're kind of like, why the fuck did he win? He just won, and it was just at the time people were like, well, that's, he has to win. It was just a weird, overriding thing. He thinks this is the best picture of the year.

It is entirely based around the performance. Kind of, the green book thing, kind of. Like, yeah. I mean, honestly, that's why I won't have to look. Everyone who voted for best picture then has to buy extension, think that's thing, kind of like yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's why I was like, yeah, everyone who voted for best picture, then has to buy extension, think that's the best performance of the year. And it's not a showy performance. It is not the kind of performance that use the, no, Jody's. Yeah. It's like, it is not the kind of performance that usually wins best actor. No, usually best actors screaming

and play. So 100%. Yeah. Yes. Because most of the movie is, all of her in extreme close-up, trying to show as little emotion as possible. Right. Trying to sell steely to whoever she's talking to. 100%. And it's those close-ups that are her friend because she can do the flicker of an eye. She has that little trembles in her voice and in her face and all that. I mean, obviously she has like one of the great Oscar monologues

or the silence of the land's model. You know, like that is, anyone would remember that coming out of the movie, but it's not a big yelling performance. Right, but also, yes, that's, it's a big monologue on paper that is like, oh man, this is a home run Oscar nomination slam dunk. Sure. But 99 out of 100 people would have gone much bigger with that monologue. And 99 out of 100 actors, directors would have demanded. Right. Covered it a different way.

Right, something, right? Right, I don't know. Right. I mean, she's really recounting it as sort of like absolute trauma. Yes. You know, I mean, she's just like, he's found this thing very quickly,

which is his skill, because the Crawford's immediate warning is like, don't let him in your head. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, I found the box. Let's open the box. And she's like, no, I don't want to open that box. I want to do this thing. And she's like, mm-hmm, we're gonna open this box.

Like, Hannibal Lecter would have a field day withhold me. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, he's like, oh, Hannibal Lecter would have had a field day with hold me. I mean, well, that's the thing. I mean, he's like, obviously, Hannibal Lecter, spoiler alert, does like to eat people, he eats them up. No good, very bad, don't do it. But he is also, there's the thing, right? And then the cop is talking about Buffalo Bill when he talks about like, is he a vampire, right?

But like, that's what Hannibal is. He's like a vampire. He like wants to eat your feelings to he loves it Like it's his favorite thing if he thinks you're like a ghost You know idiot like a chilton or whatever he has like no use for you He just wants to like eat your body right? But like if you're like Clarice, he's like I want to like open up your brain and like your emotion Well, they also like everyone warns her like you know

This is the thing he's going to do. Don't give him an answer. He gets inside your head, you're fucked. Right. And they sell it as like a, he will weaponize it in some way. He will use it to destroy you or get himself out of prison or whatever it is. Right. Weirdly though, he's a mentor. Well, that's the thing. That's what this relationship is. The truth is what makes it so great. But I also think the thing is, he misses getting to do his job. Sure.

You know, he wants to be his guy. He wants to get into people's head. Could have been a chef. That's the biggest thing. Yeah. Good, good. Yeah. Or a butcher even.

Yeah. Cause the books make this clear and then the show made it very clear. It's like he eats people he thinks are rude. He doesn't like, rudeness and then he can eat you up. Or he eats people to just sort of gain their pet. Like he'll eat other killers, things like that. But the cannibalism got in the way

of his psychiatry career. But like with Will Graham or whoever, like he's not necessarily like, I wanna eat you up. Like, yeah. He wants to utterly dismantle Will Graham. Right. And the show, it's very explicit, it's a homoerotic thing where he's like,

if I can get you to fall in love with me, then you will just totally like, right. And that's why Tumblr exploded. Yeah, sure. Yeah. But that's like, you know, I guess I'm trying to say is,

psychiatry for him isn't a cover. It's not means to an end. I think he genuinely gets off on the fact that he is this fucking good at it. And the worst punishment for him in terms of being in prison is that he doesn't have access to people he can pull apart that way. And the thing with Buffalo Bill is like, he's like, yeah, I know that guy. He's, he's lame. Like, you know, he thinks he's this, but I immediately figured him out and like that he was no fun.

Right, Anthony Held is boring to him. Well, Anthony Held, right, it's just he's just, I wanna eat you up cause you're awful. Right, so Clarice is like, he is a ghost craftsman, like which he hates. Right, Clarice is for the first time

in a long time him having someone who he can really chew on, no pun intended. Like this is an interesting psychological. You intended that pun intended, baby. I was kidding. That pun was you intended it. You intended it.

I intended it. No, but it's like for him. I mean, I think the quid pro quo thing is literally like, I need to get something out of this. And what I want to get out of it is, like, let me play my favorite sport again. Right. Like, let me do a couple rounds in the batting cage. I can't figure you out.

And you're interesting. The elements don't line up. You're four foot 11. You sound like Holly Hunter. You're still in training. They sent you here and you seem to be a lockbox of a motion. I'm saying to train you.

Right, yeah. But you're also not playing hardass with me. You're not trying to be a lockbox of a motion. To train you, right, yeah. Because in... Well, you're also not playing hard ass with me. You're not trying to be a man. You're not trying to be a ballbuster. Right, right, right. What's your fucking deal? How did you end up here? In Red Dragon slash manhunter.

That's like about, you know, we're at the tail end of his relationship with a law enforcement guy. And so like when Will goes to see him, he's almost like old boyfriends, right? Like it's he's like, that's the same awful cologne and Will is clearly like uncomfortable because it's like, yeah, we did, we did the whole thing. We like sucked each other dry. Right. And Will is like, and Clarice is like new, you know? Yeah. Will is like the TV show

that he's been watching for years and years and still watches that obligation. But he's pretty much like that gotten all the narrative juice. He's going to get out of that thing. Clarice is like, you imagine the first interesting person he has been able to have extended conversations with. Look, we all love Frankie Faisan. He's great. He's very charming in this movie.

Yes. But, you know, there's only so much conversation there having. I guess. You know, it's a thing I love that this movie does. Almost every actor with more than three lines is billed in the opening credits. Yes. Oh, great opening credits too.

I mean, that font. Can I get a t-shirt with that font on it? You know, the black letters with the white border. Super yucky. I saw Chris Isaac there. I was like, wait, Chris Isaacson, his character name is literally like FBI team leader. I believe it is.

Swat command. Yeah. And Daniel Van Bargen. Daniel Van Bargen, Roger Corman is in like FBI team leader. I believe it is. Swat command. Yeah. And Daniel Van Bargan. Daniel Van Bargan, Roger Corman is in this movie. Right. He plays the FBI director. Yes, he does.

Yeah. Obviously you have like a classic Demi guys like Charles Napier and Tracy Walter. And what's the guy? You know, the Dick Miller, the guy who's in everything. Who's the funeral director? What's that guy? The funeral. I think that's Tracy Walter.

Who's the guy who's Bob the Goon and Batman? No, he was, well, I get faces mixed up. Okay. This is Dick Miller is in this, right? I don't know if it makes it up. I think he made that up. He's in something else I just want you to take it back. It's a different demmy.

Not a different, not a demmy. Okay. Yeah, I just, I love that. I love a movie that like loves its actors enough, that it's like these people deserve opening credit. And he's an actor, director. Oh, actors love to work with us. And like, he gets great fucking cast.

From, from 1980 to 1991, he only has one film that does not get an acting nomination. And he gets four wins. Four does not get an acting nomination. And he gets four wins? Four wins if you're including this? He gets four acting wins. It's Tom Hanks, Steve Bruney. Steve Bruney over his career.

Yeah, I'm saying, right. So that's pretty crazy that it's like, for a decade, he only makes one film that doesn't get an acting nomination. And it should have. Right, it should have gotten fucking three acting nominations. That's your favorite. I wanna go with you, right? Is your favorite demi?

That's your number one. Yeah. It is crazy that like, Leonardo didn't get nominated for that group that can nominate for that demi. We'll dive into that. We'll have already Dough. Flash.

We will have Diven. Yes, but yes, he was such an actor's director and was such an actor's friend. And I feel like the demi close-up thing is like, when people see movies that have close-ups this good, I think they first think, wow, this movie's well shot. And then they think, oh wow, these actors are good that they can hold a close-up as well.

And the thing they don't think about is, especially if it's like first person POV, that is a very, very vulnerable thing to ask an actor to do. It is incredibly unnatural to do a scene where you are staring at the camera rather than your scene partner. Or even staring at your scene partner but the camera is right next to their face.

It is super fucking uncomfortable. Yes. I talk to you. Unnatural. Yes. It kills the reality of what you're doing. So often you're trying to be aware where the camera is, but kind of ignore and not look at it.

And in order to get that down, which like, you know, Barry Jenkins is the air apparent who has nailed that in the modern day. Yes. It's, there's a reason why those two guys are known for their sense of empathy and their love of actors and their Protection of actors and of the process and all of that because in order to make those shots work You need to create a very specific kind of environment. Yes, and a level of trust

I I asked Mary about it when I interviewed him and he talked about how like the for Beale Street Kiki, I've never been in a movie before basically Kiki lane and so she right now But she was less disturbed by it. Oh, it's like she was've never been in a movie before, basically, Kiki Lane. And you're asking for a new, right? Now, but she was less disturbed by it. Oh, interesting. Because she was not really used to, like, movie acting. She didn't have to, like, untrain herself. Right, whereas, like, Stefan James, like, the other actors were more, like,

it's, like, unsettled by that. Like, let's write into the game. Which, like, both of those directors use those shots to convey very specific emotions and place you in those moments. So like in Sansa Lent, it's almost always someone feeling terror at what they're watching and they're having to play it against a lens. Yeah.

You know, that's a tough thing to do. I think what this movie understands is that to be in Clarice's point of view, you can never literally be in her point of view. Yes. Like, the famous, of course, the famous shot in the last sequence when Buffalo Bill is like reaching out for her. And it's just like, you become her in that moment because you understand her as like an object of what he wants.

Yeah. Similarly to how when we see her from Hannibal's point of view, this is a thing I read. He, like he said, he never had her look at the camera because then she's always like five degrees. Yes. Yeah. Whereas when you look at it Hannibal, had her look at the camera. Because then, she's always like five degrees up. Yeah, yeah. Whereas when you look at it Hannibal, he's looking at the camera. She's that oriental you in what she's seeing.

Totally. So it's a fascinating like way of tricking you into having her point of view without really doing her point of view. He was a very, very intuitive filmmaker because you look like the sort of like visual language on display in this movie is insane and so fucking complicated and so risky and you're like this should not work you should not be able

to cover scenes in this way but you get the sense that he just sort of grappled onto every scene every line dialogue every shot and went what's the best way to convey this sure and he always had a really good understanding of what this was. His analysis of what he was trying to get at was really good. And this is like the movie where just totally coalesces and he just figures out like, when do you need to be in her shoes? When do you need to be seeing her through someone else's eyes? You know?

Uh, it's always the right decision and it's always to the right to great. And I think it speaks to his, another one of his strengths to the idea of collaboration is he saw how much Jody Foster wanted to be in this movie. She was not his first choice. Yeah, it was like his fifth choice. If she wants to do it this badly, she probably got something. Right. So let's do some context.

Okay. Thank you for queuing that up. Thank you, Emily. This book came out in the year. Yeah. And it was a big hit. Right. Good book. It's a great book. David Foster. And it was a big hit. Right. Good book.

It's a great book. David Foster Wallace called it basically the best American novel of the decade. Just the book. I use it obsessed with it and we read it constantly. Come out after Man Hunter is released. Yes, it does. The movie comes a couple years after Man Hunter. Man Hunter obviously we covered it on this by guys and it kind of went nowhere.

Was not a big hit. Yeah. Orion Pictures, which by the time this movie came out was basically defunct, right? They're close to defunct, right? Yeah, but they option the film with Gene Hackman, who is going to direct it. That's crazy. You didn't know that? No.

Hackman, I think, wanted to play Jack Crawford and direct it. That was the take. That's so telling for like a movie star at that point in his career to go like, well, Jack Crawford's the hero of the tape. That's so telling for like a movie star at that point is career to go like, well, Jack Crawford's the hero of the movie. I'm not gonna play Hannibal Lecter because that's the monster. Yeah, maybe he just thought he could. I don't know. But also when you read the book and of course people point out like Hannibal's not in a ton of the movie, even though he is totally a lead and it's in dispute. I will get into this. Please remind me to get into this later. Okay.

Do you disagree with me? No, I agree with you, but I came with fucking stats. Good. Thank you. I did the fucking work last night. Yes, because the stat is wrong. The stat is wrong. It's hellishly wrong and it's been repeated endless.

The stat is wrong. We will circle back around to it, but I brought my fucking numbers. I did the fucking work. Everyone's wrong. Everyone is wrong. It's one of those, yeah. The screen time things is people clicking whenever they're actually on screen.

Yeah, thank you. So we'll get to it. So back. Hackman wants to make the movie. Dino Dillor and ever direct a movie. I don't think so. That's so. I mean, and he is a legend and we do stand.

He's a legend, Mr. way. Right. Exactly. Do we stand? Oh, okay. Gina, have you seen his diner's drive-ins and dives performance? No.

Guy, he's good. Guy Fiat. That one's good. Guy Fiat lately. One season, I'd say like 2008 or something. Once he goes to a place in Santa Fe, he's like sitting down talking to the customers. One of them is Gene Hackman. It is not entirely clear that Guy Fiat, he knows it's Gene Hackman. Obviously, they figured out once he's sort of released. He just thinks like, oh, it's an old man.

But yeah, and like Gene Hackman's like, yeah, I like the breakfast here. And like it's his, I believe on IMDP, it's his last credit. That would be, that would be his, that's most recent. Yeah. He might go to his grave with that being. I'm very surprised when people don't know about that. Like, yeah, it dares a, if you look on YouTube, Jean Hackman, Diner's Drive ins and drives. Yeah. That is incredible. Okay. They bring in Ted Talley to write the adaptation.

Ted Talley was not a big screenwriter at the time, but whatever. I don't know. He'd wrote like white palace. I don't know. And he writes the script and Hackman is like, this is too violent. I don't want to make this. And withdraws. Which love Eugene, but what the fuck? Like you can see this coming. Whatever. It. Which, love you, Jean, but what the fuck? Like, you didn't see this coming? Whatever, it doesn't matter. The funding falls through. Orion, instead of giving up, is like, no, this is interesting. The script is interesting.

Let's find another director. They get Demi. Demi reads and is like, this is great. I'll do it. And it just, after that, it's like, rapid. They just go. Because you'll read interviews with demi collaborators and buy in large in the demi camp at that time people were like Jonathan,

why the fuck are you making this movie? Right, right. Well, because the script doesn't go but they were like this seems can be this is off. This is not you've been building in your career. You don't seem like someone who wants to spend this much time in darkness. You know, he goes to. He's two least successful movies from a creative standpoint up until that point in time are the two that are thrilling. Last embrace and. And what's fighting Matt, right? Yeah.

So he goes to Michelle Fyfer, who he just worked with. Jody Foster is like, I want to do it. And he's like, I'm going to talk to Michelle, who he just, you know, did Mary with the mob with, Mary to the mob. She turns it down. She didn't like the subject matter. She does say it was a difficult decision. Sure.

He went to Meg Ryan, who turned it down to Violin, went to Laura Dern, who the studio said, no thank you. Because I guess Laura Dern's pretty young at that point. Yeah, she's a Lord Dern's kind of like. And she was so doy at that point. Like I saw Blue Velvet the other day, a revival screening.

And you forget how much of the Lord during like thing for so long was just like innocence and capsilative. Sure, sure, yeah. Like even like use of. Right, but even through like Jurassic Park is just like this is someone who's just like a ball of light and excitement for dinosaurs. God, I fucking love her in Jurassic Park. just like, this is someone who's just like a ball of light

and excitement for dinosaurs. God, I fucking love her in Jurassic Park. She's so good at Jurassic Park. So eventually, I will say though, I think those other three people all probably would have won the Oscar playing this part. I think so, yeah. If as long as it had all geled,

I would agree with you. The Fifre for sure. Fifre for the Oscar. But that's the thing about Fifre, it's just outrageous that she doesn't have an Oscar. Yeah, it's outrageous. It's outrageous. Did she lose, was she one of the ones Five for the Oscar. But that's the thing about five for is just outrageous that she doesn't have an Oscar. Yeah, just I don't know.

Right. Did she lose? Was she one of the ones who lost to Foster the first time? If so, she might have been in supporting. No, I think you're right, but if so, what a fuck up. Because that first Foster Oscar, you can give that to one of the other. Foster should not have won the Oscar. Yeah, yeah.

No offense to her. No, but that's one. That's Glenn Close lost that one. And Michelle Sifre was in supporting. I think. I think. I need that's one. That's Glenn Close lost that one. And Michelle Fiverr is in supporting. I think, I think. I need to find this. Okay, Glenn Close, you're right. It's when Michelle is for,

because Michelle's sort of one for fabulous Baker boys. That's her greatest performance. It's a great movie. Your mom's favorite movie of all time? Along with I know where I'm going. The power of pressure. For those at the top two. Foster Glenn Close for Deanger's Liaisons.

Melanie Griffith for Working Girl, which was a big one at the time. Yeah. Marl Street for a Dingo 8, my baby. And Sigourney for a girl is in the mist that weird two nomination year of hers. That's a weird year of a bunch of people who seemed like a inevitable Oscar went in the next decade and then still have not won. Like Sigourney was just like, oh, Sigourney's gonna win any day now.

Right. Michelle Fiffer's gonna win any day now. They will continue dominating. One close. Glenn Close is gonna win any day now. Michelle Pfeiffer's gonna win any day now. They will continue dominating. Lynn Close is gonna win any day now. She's kinda right. I think the wife will pull it out this year. I think this year. What if they just resubmit it every year?

They're like, the wife, she's still a wife. Yeah. So, still a wife. She's still a wife. Still the wife. What if they re-releases? What if she remarried the wife to? What if they re-released it and just call it

the wife to still wife? What if Clint? And now, otherwise, the film is unchanged. Just different title cards. What if Clint Eastwood made the wife to? Like, that would be a great fucking movie. That would be, I would love to see that movie. He would get it.

They railroaded her. Nobel Prize jerks. It wouldn't let her be a wife. All she wanted was to be a wife. This is the thing. He made change-ling. Changing is the thing, it's like, he may change the link, changing is the same thing with it. It's not like it's only the Richard Jewels of the world

that Clint East would want to be like, they railroad it. You know, like any, as long as they've been railroaded, Clint East is intrigued. Clint distrusts everyone, but his sweet spot is when the person who's being railroaded is someone who should ostensibly be held as a hero. Right, yes, 100%.

Otherwise, it's just true of the wife, right? The wife. He should be sh-hailed as a hero and given a Nobel Prize. Fuck, Clint Eastwood should have directed the wife. There could have been like a Nobel Prize scene, like in Sully, where the board is like, well, I don't think you wrote these books

and she's like, let's get serious now. I thought you were saying that Sully won the Nobel Prize, which is true. He won the Nobel Prize. Yeah, he swept the board that year. Sully's so Nobel Prize. Which is true. He won the Nobel Prize. You swept the board that year. Sully's so fucking good. You won the MacArthur. I hope Sully wins.

He wins. Yeah, he got a Goog felt. This has been his new thing. And his new thing is he's gonna get a Goog felt. Yeah, 2020. And he plans to get it in the field of calling it a Goog felt. What were you gonna say?

Do you think Sally's gonna win Best Picture this year? I feel like this might finally be this year. It's gonna happen. It's so overdue because you go four years in a row without it winning Best Picture is pretty embarrassing. Look, it's a blood on the account. It would win Best Picture if they had the Oscar Central. I guess so.

Funny, but don't lie. Fleabag won the Emmy. It's over. It's over. It's time for Sally. I think that that is what the universe is telling us. 100%. 20 minutes of life. Fleabag won the Emmy. Toilet had so much change. It's time for Sully. I think that that is what the universe is telling us. 100%. Yes. For the role of Dr. Hannibal Lecter.

Jonathan Demi wanted one man and one man only. I gotta guess this. Do you know? I think I know. I'm forgetting. It's funny, right? I guess so. It's obvious.

It is the obvious choice at the time. It is the obvious choice at the time. It is the obvious choice at the time. I would say so. Do you know who I'm talking about? Yeah, I mean, it's very much a guy who has got approach for a zillion of these kinds of roles. Who is it? John Connery.

Oh, of course. You know, like, and instead of Scotland, he found a Welshman. But like, you know what I mean? Like, that big gravitas actor, older, you know, will command the camera, that big gravitas actor, older, you know, will command the camera, right? That would not have worked though.

No, because you're like, Well, it's a very different movie. But you're like, Of course, Brian Cox, another Scottsdale, had already played him. You're like, Fox, Foster's perfect, but the Fife your movie would have worked. The Meg Ryan movie would have worked.

Who is the other one you said? Lord Dern. Who knows about that? Was there one other non-Lord Dern one? Anyway, I mean, she's the right. She would be great. But it would have said her career on a whole different trajectory. Yes. Yes. Yes. Connery, though, the movie would have folded in on itself. It would have been finding for us. It would have

literally. Right. He just would have been like, you're not a cop now, dog. Or even in the best case scenario. I'm a open boy. What if he'd said that? Keep your eyes open for Buffalo Bill. He's out there. Best case scenario is it would have become the hunt for red October. The game is on. You know, like it would have been like-

She is good at that. But that's my point. It's like it would have been like sterling popcorn entertainment that suffers a little bit from having to fold into his movie star management. Instead, it was Starling popcorn entertainment. Okay. I'll let myself out. This is outrageous. entertainment that suffers a little bit from having to fold into his movie star magazine. It was Starling popcorn entertainment. Okay. I let myself out.

This is outrageous. I've been like 18 terrible jokes. Perfect joke. Perfect joke. Perfect 10 comedy points. I mean, and then there's this thing where it's like other actors considered for the role, which I feel like is probably just like, I don't know, some studio list they found. Yeah.

Al Pacino. Uh huh. Who in 1991 or whatever would have gone hand. Right. He would have been crazy. Robert De Niro, who probably would have gone the other way, right? Really locked in. Dustin Hoffman.

I mean, what the fuck? This is a stupid list. It's Derek Jacobi. That says curve ball. Weird. A little more of like a theatrical presence type guy. And Daniel Day Lewis. Uh-huh. But.

I don't think any of those work. I think Jack would have been too close to what Brian Cox had already done. Yeah. He had any new man hunter. But like, that is fair. Now, Anthony Hopkins was a guy who was nowhere. Right.

He had had this young career that was promising. Right. Where he's in, you know, a lot of theater and then he's in the dressing room. Magic and the dresser and the photographer. And he's in the elephant man, which he's fantastic in. Right. Where he's in, you know, a lot of theater and then he's in like, Magic and the dresser and the other. Magic and bridge too far. And then he's in the elephant man, which he's fantastic in. Right. But that's a 10-1-80.

So, you know, that's like, you know, a decade ago. Right. And then it's like, I don't know, fucking, I mean, the bounty, which was kind of a famous flop, but then like, the dawning, a chorus of disapproval of, never heard of this. Yeah, he's kind of just in the margins. He's a nobody. Yeah. He's a nobody, that's right.

But he was in that position of like, this is someone that everyone agrees is a good actor, but he's not a movie star and doesn't have any clout. Which is probably one reason they can get him. Because I guess a lot of these big characters are probably either too gross or not, he's a supporting character. Anyone who's too established character. Like, right?

Anyone who's too established, I think would be afraid to take on this role and have it fight with their star persona list that you read and knowing that Hannibal is supposed to be European, just vaguely. He's supposed to be in right. Would Pacino have done a Euro trash accent? Oh boy. Did we get deprived of that? He would have been so good. Pacino, come on, you would have killed it. Yeah. Come on, do it. But it's the same.

I just live. Follow me, and I just can't tell you, baby. Closer, come closer. But like Baldwin talks about Hunford Red October and he was like, it was such a big deal. Like, a clan scene was huge. Baldwin's a real big face when he's making that. Right, right.

Jack Ryan was so huge. He was like, I remember getting on a plane and seeing that every other person was reading a Jack Ryan novel and going like, holy shit, I'm about to be the next massive iconic character. And he was like, and then all of that went out the window when they hired Connery because the movie became Connery's show. The entire thing became in service of Connery,

not because he was a diva, but because he is this like supernova, you know, all powerful commanding. 100%. He's a screened couple years removed from Anasca, when himself, like he has become like, grand old man Conor. Right.

But also that he's just like, uh, yeah, I'm gonna use my voice. And the character's Russian. Everyone talks about him being Russian and everyone's like, we're not even gonna pretend. It's Conor, you know what you pay him to do. That's the whole thing. Same with he was like, I'm from Chicago.

That's Chicago gangster. That was the wonderful era of just actors being like, Kevin Costner, yeah, your Robin Hood, whatever. You could just do your Kevin Costner. Right, he sounds like it's from Oklahoma. Yeah, I do want to note that producer Ben has left the room and I am now producer M. You are producer M. So that is true.

We, uh, the divine producer M. But yes, I think like Connery would have done Connery. I so. And it would have done Connery, and it would have been very appealing, but he would not have submitted himself to a character. It would have looked like Sean Connery and sounded like Sean Connery,

and he probably would have gone like, well, audience just won't accept me going to this far. I think it could have worked. It wouldn't have been as good of a movie. It would be a different movie. It would be half a rack of a, you'd be like, this is like a perfect piece of like, there's a really fucking solid thriller.

It would not have been the transcendent film that it is. I would argue. Also Connery is like a big burly guy. He's like six two and he's burly, right? Which is probably, which is more how, I mean Cox is a big burly. I don't know if he's that tall. He's pretty tall.

He's pretty tall. And for me Hopkins is quite small. He's short. And in the movie does not present him as sort of like a physical specimen, exactly. No one gets like these very delicate blue eyes. The eyes are incredible. Yeah, but like, you know, like he's more commanding

as a result. Like you're scared of him because of the way he uses his voice, his sort of stillness in the room, you know what I mean? Like the opening shot, where she's going down the hallway and he's just like standing there, it's like literally there's like a red carpet that she's walking down and he's like at the end of it. Like it's so theatrical and he's so theatrical

without it being theatrical. He's like waiting for you, that it's like the Mona Lisa like following. It's the greatest scene in a movie. I, I've been, right, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, there are like five scenes in this movie that are arguably the greatest scene in the movie.

I know, but like the movie is like Jack Crawford's like, Clarie, if she's running, I love the running. Yeah. You know, but like, Clarie's like, Hey, go talk to Hannibal, Lector, but be careful. She's like, Okay, she goes see him and we're like, we're like, what's this movie going to be about? Like, no, it's like a thing. I just, I don't know, something's going on. There's like serial killer on the loose. And like, she meets with Chilton. Yeah. Yeah. And then like, once that scene starts, you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then like once that scene starts, you're like, oh, am I watching the greatest movie ever, what the fuck is this?

Yeah, it's structured like a rom-com, but it's a horror. And like that's the reason people were like, oh, I wanna see Clarice and Hannibal, fuck. But like, no. It's one of those things that people thought they wanted to see. And it's one of the novel, right. It's like Thomas Harris is like,

this is what you wanted, right? And everyone's like, no. And that's like, it's the same thing that happened with the TV show where the relationship is so intimate. And it's all in the tension wanted, right? And everyone was like, and that's like, it's the same thing that happened with the TV show where the relationship is so intimate. And it's all in the tension though, right? And like, I talked enough to Brian Fuller to know that he wanted to do a science of the lamp season. And like, of course he was desperate.

And he wanted to do a Clarisse on the show. And like, he was interested in de-sexualizing that relationship and like making it about mentorship and life. I think would be this part where he did that. I don't remember if this was his casting, or if it was fan casting, but I thought it was fucking great. And like now it would be perfect.

He would tweet it's your Sharon and it was your Sharon. She would. Okay. You had tweeted that. And like now she's exactly the right age. It would be like I hope they, I hope they can work that out. Yeah. That would be incredible.

It would because it's still they still kind of talk about it as like a thing that they couldn't maybe pull off, right? Yeah. Is now De LaRentus is dead. No, right? Yeah. Is now De Larentes' dead. No, right? He ripped. No offense. He's dead.

No offense to being excited that he's dead, but like he was part of the problem, right? Like he was sort of like, the problem was they had so the rights to lifetime to do a show called Starling, which was about Clarisse. I forgot about that. And then like those rights were tied up at the same time Hannibal was on. They've essentially expired. So like theoretically the deal could be done. It requires somebody to want to make more Hannibal, which is sort of a tricky proposition

because after Hannibal, which was such a huge hit, no Hannibal thing is ever really like lit the box office or the ratings on box. Yeah, nobody's wanted to like touch that sacred ground because Hannibal of course ran 17 seasons and was, you know, a massive success. And we still like, you still have people outside who are probably just, they're just eating people outside the embassies. The fanables. Yeah. The fanable. Hanheads. Was Hannibal produced by NBC Universal? No, it's produced by Gailmont International in association with the dealer and his company.

Okay, right. Which is why NBC aired three seasons because they got it for like $5. Right, right. At the end of the day, weren't they ending it? It was an airing Saturday night, so it was like, it was had a weird time slot. NBC was like, we are literally,

literally any ad money we make from this, we make money on it. And they're like, keep yelling us about it. So I guess we'll make it. It was like burning off a Canadian drama in the summer. And NBC's out. It's a new show. Yes, it was basically their rookie blue.

And the first season of it, a rookie blue name check. The first season of it was basically a crime procedural. Uh-huh. It's a fantastic season. Yeah, that's true. I sort of shrunk. I mean, I know. I sort of shrunk. I mean, I sort of shrunk. Any of it. it and that season actually had okay ratings like decent for a show that you got for $5

That is you know, right in which people throw strings are turned into shallow strings. Yeah, and and then season two is much more serialized People start to drop off and then season three is just one of the fuck is fucking weirdest things It's never aired on American television in like nobody watched it is truly quite odd I do love it though. I do want to ask this. Is there a role that has as high a track record of great performances as Hannibal Lecter? We talked about this on the man hundred. It's no, but it's so wild. But it's crazy that lots of people have taken a shot at it. Most of them have done a really good almost career defining stuff with it. And nonetheless, Anthony Hopkins is so associated with the role to the extent that you forget other people did, right?

It's a weird thing that Hopkins both dominates it and there have been great other interpretations. But you know, they're there are four actors who have played him, right? Sure. In film media. Yes. Gaspar UL non-starter. The other three are all viewed as exemplary performances that are totally different from one another and aren't diminished by each other in any way. And it doesn't feel

like there's even any sort of like, well, who's your favorite Batman? Like, you know, there are people who sometimes make the argument that Cox is better, that Mads got to do more of it or whatever. But everyone's just like, no, there's just like three perfect performances. Hopkins not ruined, but he kind of, you know, he leans on it in the sequels. Right. In a way that gets a little frustrated. Right.

And the thing that's interesting is Brian Cox is playing a human. Yes. And how many Hopkins is playing Dracula? Right. And especially he gets camp here and camp here with a Maths Michelson is playing Satan. And they for three, he he's doing different things.

Right, right, right. Hot demon. Like who you wanna maybe have you cook you dinner. So that's the other thing is like talk you about all these other people who could have played Hannibal. I feel like this is the kind of performance where people would have been scared in terms of how it would affect the audience's view of them.

If you're coming into this already as an established actor, Hopkins essentially had nothing to lose at this point. He has nothing to lose, I'm not gonna say that. Because he was coming off of like two moments when he should have had his breakthrough and it failed to really maintain. So he just rips into this with the philosophy of someone going like, how do I make this

the most interesting character I can? That's all I have to do here. And in a way, it makes this career, but it also feels like a performance that would have doomed most other people's careers and that it became so iconic that he could never get out of the shadow of being Hannibal. And the fact that he then successfully has like a 20 year run

where he's like doing merchandise, removies, and playing president and all that stuff. You go to Shesguy who has become this sort of like, you know, footnote British theater actor, right? To the next year to 92 as Howard's end, he has Dracula. Yeah. He's in chaplain, right? Like, you know, by 93 he has the remains of the day in shadow lands. Like he just, Hollywood's like, let's make you a movie star.

What fucking old guy can you play? You know, you're an old British person, so we're gonna shove you in some costume drama. So it works. It was what he wanted to do, I think. And he wanted to do it, and obviously he's a talent. I'm talking about that, the closest thing I can think of is Captain Jack Sparrow, where Johnny Depp got buried

by that and somehow Hopkins doesn't, until he goes back to do Hannibal. Once he goes back is when he starts to become a bit of a lazy actor, I would say. And now I actually quite enjoy current Hopkins where he's just an old guy and he's sort of leaning into it again. It's the gravitas.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But my favorite Hopkins performance outside of this is time to guess. Nixon. Nixon. Right. Where he's like doing an impression, but he's also like, I am Anthony Hopkins.

I'm not gonna try and like, he's kind of ignored. He's doing the Connery thing. He's like, you're never gonna get over it. He's kneeling it where you're like, this guy is like a maniac, but also, I do sort of love him. Like, you know, there's that weird tension that he's so good at finding. I kind of love Nixon.

I kind of think, yeah, I think Nixon is better than JFK. Yeah, I still prefer JFK, but I do love Nixon. That's my hot take. I think that Nixon is like Oliver Stoneett, his best like piles of conspiratorial papers around him being like, don't you see? It was all happening in the Bahamas. And he like throws another thing in you.

You're like, my god, Oliver, relax. There was a time when I had to spend a lot of time thinking seriously about the show House of Cards, which is a terrible television show. But like if I now try to think about House of Cards, it's a very fun light set to work on. As I have a friend who was on House of Cards and just like, I have actually talked to several people who were on House of Cards and just like, it was a nightmare. Yes.

Like the whole time. Yeah. Yeah. But, it's like, it's almost like there was like one person who like has like an notorious track record of a four-frame, one-frame, one-frame, one-frame. Let me be frank. Carry on, please. But when I think about House of Cards

for like five minutes, it just drifts into Nixon. It just becomes like, because I think that it's, I think those two are connected. And like Nixon is doing everything House of Cards tried to do in two and a half hours and is fantastic. It is fantastic. I think also, yeah, it's just like stone is such a great. That is stone. He's a paranoic and like a self-port. That's a perfect sub-jewel person.

Whereas the JFK, you know, the JFK, he's making it about a person who's obsessed with the assassin, but Nixon is just a great portrayal of power from a maniac about a maniac. It's great. After Nixon, right, he's in, he starts flipping. He keeps the old man rolls, homestead, classical man, where he does that big speech, you know, the water says, what's going on? He fights a bear. I'm saying edge. Then he's like, give me some action moves.

So you have the edge. You have the mask of Zaro, which people forget he has a whole opening set piece where he is Zaro and then the rest of the movie, he's in it. It's you recently tweeted a perfect movie. It is a perfect film. It's the greatest film of all time. Then in stink, right?

He's in, I mean, he's in a bad company. Yeah, bad company. I saw that in theaters. That thing is a stinker. Don't shoot a marker film. I'm trying to remember now. The movie is terrible. Bad company was written as a sequel to something.

That sounds right. And I forget what it was, and it makes a lot of sense and is really funny. I thought, for a second, I thought we were talking about the movie Big Trouble, which was based on a Dave Barry. Correct. Which was.

Correct. I'm gonna think about Dave Barry a lot lately. What about Dave Barry? Yes, and I think about him and I just, I give a mild chuckle. Just a little rye sort of, a skew smile wipes across my face when I think about Dave's world. I've been feeling like if I read all of Dave Barry, I could understand our current political crisis.

I tell you, tweeting about that. And I'm just like, I've tried to sell my editor on it. She's not convinced. That company was written as a sequel to Blue Street, right? Right. Right. Which is wild stuff. And I guess it was just like, what if this time there was an old guy with Martin Lawrence

and there it's like a buddy movie? Well, no, I think the other problem was it was like the first one is he pretends to be a cop, but he's actually a robber. And they were like, how do we heighten it? And they were like, what if he ends up having to pretend to be an FBI agent? And they were like through what series of events. And it's like his twin brother.

I believe it's a CIA agent. Okay, but you know what I'm saying? The idea is you heighten it. And the plot of bad companies. The plot of bad company if Chris Ross remind people who may have forgotten this film dead identical twin correct It's Dave with CIA agents, right? They need someone who looks like Chris rock right Chris rock is dead He has an identical twin also played by Chris rock right who's a funny guy right not a CIA I just remember that and if any hop is the guys like brother

I remember them announcing that movie and being and brother because they were like So here's a movie. It's called bad company. It's rework announcing that movie and being and brother because they were like, uh, so here's a movie. It's called Bad Company. It's reworked from a script that was meant to be Blue Streak 2. It's Chris Rock and Anthony Hopkins. I was like, what a great oil and vinegar,

odd couple, buddy cop action comedy I presume. And then you see the movie. I'm even just seeing the trailer and going, wow, this looks so fucking dower. Yeah, it's kind of just a thriller. It's a thriller. Yeah. And then Chris Rock likes. Storm two people who should not be playing those roles,

who have no chemistry together. Speaking of the Anthony Hopkins of the role, as you're reading off these roles, I'm picturing them I had I've seen a lot of them. I'm even picturing the later Hannibal movies, and I'm like, he feels like a different person from the person in silence of the world. Yes, he does.

Even when he's great, you know? He becomes more of a movie star after this, where then he's doing the Connery thing, When he's great, you know, he becomes more of a movie star after this. We're then he's doing the Connery thing where he's like, characters got to come towards me. That is a lot of that. This he's fully giving himself to. Also, I feel like in the later on in movies, because Hannibal film, Hannibal brackets film does not come out for what, 10 years at it's 2001.

2001. Yeah, because it's right after Gladiator, right? It is 2001. So it's 10 years at San Francisco. Yeah. And it just sort of feels like Hopkins is straining a little too hard to play. Similar age, you know, like to like he's trying to be young. And there's a little too much like physicality and then a red dragon, which is a prequel to silence. He's trying

way harder and it feels very strange. Yeah. I remember when Hannibal came out, that was February 2001. They were trying to replicate the signs of the Lambs release date. And Jeff Wells. Was the biggest R-rated opening ever? Oh, I seem to talk about every time I'm on this fucking podcast. Well, he's the best of us. He is the best of us. He was like, he saw an early screen,

he was like, they should release that on Christmas day and Ridley Scott can get two best picture nominations. And like, I pretty sure it was him. That makes... That makes... But yeah. Well, either one of them. I mean, Poland was him. That makes it. That makes it. That makes it. Well, either one of them. I mean, Poland is the Oscar cursor.

Yeah. Anytime. Yeah, okay. Like he was like fucking fan of the opera get ready across the board. It's went in the big fire. I just know the total shitball of a human being, but yeah, he's closest to everything that he has. He is bad at predicting the Oscars.

He is not a shitball. Jeff Wells is the combination of all three Hannibal Lectors as you discussed. He is a vampire. He is But he's also a man. He's also Unfortunately a concert reminder Listen to our podcast The world off the wheels. He does I hope if he does listen I hope he makes the banner on Hollywood elsewhere say a vampire Satan a man. A man. It'd be beautiful.

100%. He did email and say that, I said throttle off the well stock. It told you how it can be a call times, but do you folks know the Hopkins acting process? Because I kind of find it kind of fascinated. No, go ahead. And everyone's like, he's the most professional actor. He's the most prepared. He just fucking like nails it. A, he like reads the entire script, like 200 times. Okay. Like just obsessively reads, rereads, rereads, rereads, a month or two before filming

knows his lines backwards and forwards. Has it like so thoroughly in his head, records himself doing all the dialogue every night, so the but time he's gotten on set, he said it so many times that it's like second nature. So that's part one. Kind of crucial for this movie where he's monologuing a lot. Totally. A lot of very sort of like complicated lines come out of the map.

Totally. But in terms of the actual language, he kind of puts in the work at a scale that almost no one else does. Sure. Of just like everyone's like obsessively, no one reads the lines, practices, memorizes harder, earlier, stronger than Hopkins. The second thing is, which is reported on less, but I have heard other actors who have worked with them

say this in interviews and go like, I don't know if I should be saying this or not. What he does to get in the character is like he's like really big on like building the visuals of the character in the costume fitting in the hair and then whatever. And then he has them take the Polaroid. I think it's still to this day a Polaroid.

It needs to be an analog process. It takes the Polaroid from when they nail the look of the character that first time and he has all the dialogue backwards and forwards, you know, in his head. And he looks at the Polaroids and they're like, it looks like a possession where he just starts And he looks at the Polaroids, and they're like, it looks like a possession where he just starts staring very deeply at the Polaroid,

and then he like leans into it, and then like his eyes roll back into his head, and he like, inhales, and like stands straight up and he's the character. Cool. And not like he's method acting, like now you have to call him Dr. Lector, but it's like he looks at the image of what they finally have nailed the look of the character to be and he stares at it until he feels like he is embodying that.

And then he's just like, okay, go. Cool. That's how I came out of Strayon. He's stared at a polaroid of like myself and like, I brought it to my forehead and everyone's like, what are you doing? It's like a magic on it. Yeah. So the plot of science. Look, I talked to Joe DeFoster. You want to talk about her career now?

I think we got it. Yeah. We're saying we've never gone in. Yeah, I was trying to queue up. I really want to talk to Foster. Producer, Em. Jody Foster, as we all know, was a child actress. A copper tonkit. A hundred percent. She's the one getting pants by the dog. Goody Foster, as we all know, is a child actress. The Coppertone Kit.

100%. She's the one getting pants by the dog. That's sure, absolutely. Right, and then she's in Freaky Friday and she is the Paper Moon TV show and the bad news bears. Was she in one of the sequels? Am I wrong about that?

I feel like she replaced Hated Money all two times, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't think so. I mean, she was in things. Yeah, she was in a lot of TV shows. Bugs in Milan. Yes, people forget the Bugs in Malone and Freaky Friday come out the same year as Taxi Driver.

Yeah. Like, it's not like Taxi Driver was late in her child acting career. No. It was pretty quickly, because obviously she's only 14 years old when she does tax driver. But like, and so she did kind of after that, after that whole big year, starts transitioning more to, you know, whatever, growing up movies. Right.

But Taxi Driver, I think, was like, oh shit, she can actually act, but also was seen as something of a like, you know, Selena Gomez doing spring breakers. Because she goes, someone trying to lay the groundwork for an adult career by establishing early that she's not gonna be in Disneyland for entire life. Because when she's in the accused, it's kind of like, oh, Dodie Foster's back kind of vibe. Right.

Like, oh, here's like a serious performance from the famed child actor who is in taxi driver. And then in between the accused and sound of the slam, it's just one movie, Catch Fire, slash Backtrack, not a movie. And then after this, much like with Hopkins, Hollywood is like, okay, let's, you're a movie star. You're the number one.

You're the number one. Yeah, right. So like, you're sensibly the biggest female star in Hollywood. She starts directing a lot too. She starts directing early. Which she will always say she prefers to acting and that she wanted to become more of a director and act even less. I, uh, I make little man Tate.

I believe comes out the same year. It's that was a big part of their Oscar campaign for science, the labs was they were like, we're going to put little man Tate out there. It's going to be a sort of a rock. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For because she's going to get all this press.

Like, it's a very nice. That's very nice. And then in 95 she made hope for the holidays, which I think is a those press. Like, it's a very nice little movie. And then in 95 she made hope for the holidays, which I think is a good movie. Oh, yes, I love that movie. That's a great movie. And then in 2011 she made the beaver.

Yeah, more of a mixed bag that one. Yeah, I discovered Jennifer Lawrence though. She did, not she didn't. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I believe they did. I am all but certain they did. That's also one of those movies where that was the hot script. I read it as a script. I wanted to play the Antony Yalkin part so fucking badly. And on paper, you were just like slam dunk of all slam dunks. And even when they cast Mel Gibson, I was like, that's an interesting casting choice.

And then you watch the movie and you're like, oh, it is a script that is impossible to actually put on its face. This is a thing that I think a lot about blacklist scripts. Yeah. There are so many movie and you're like, oh, it is a script that is impossible to actually put on its face. This is a thing that I think a lot about blacklist scripts. Yeah. There's so many of them that are like, oh, this is a fucking amazing. The ones that read the best often are unactable.

Yeah, passengers was a movie where like the script is like very good. And then it's a pretty perfect script. And then the movie you're like, oh, what the fuck? And then beaver is the same thing as passengers where it's like it is, it is creepypasta. No, both of them are so difficult to pull off tonally. We're reading the script that the writer

is literally describing how you're viewing scenes and letting you know the tone it's supposed to have. And you're putting it in your mind's eye the way that hits your palate the best. Yeah. And those two films put up on their feet are just impossible to do. I did, I did a Twitter thought about this

around the movie, um, uh, life itself, the Dan Fulgenoo movie, which is like, Sure. You read that on the page, you're probably like, Oh, yeah, great. I did it. And like you hear the famous story, like Warren Bady wept reading that script.

Right. And like, then you see it on screen. It's just stupid. Right. I'm very stupid. I'm friends with Kyle Killing, the guy who wrote the B for. Yes. Now he's show running Halo, I think, which is like a weird choice.

Halo like the video game? No, no, the Showtime TV series Halo based on the video game. Okay. Yeah. Cool. I'm excited. But yeah, he's an excellent writer. It's just like great screenwriting, which the science of the Lambs has to, but great screenwriting

is so often about just like economics of character. Yeah. And anytime you're giving yourself something super flashy, it becomes dangerous. Lam's has to, but great screenwriting is so often about just like economics of character. And anytime you're giving yourself something super flashy, it becomes dangerous and then actually depicting it on screen is too much. Right. And it was like, there was almost the J-roach Jim Carrey beaver, which would've gone like totally comedy.

And then it was sort of surprising that was like, Jody Foster, Mel Gibson, I'm gonna do it. And it's more of a drama. And in reality, like neither one was the right approach. I kind of want to see the J Roach, Jim Carrey one. Because it would just be like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It would have been a complete Foster's career. One, she, her last direct-orderly effort was famously a biopic of David Sims. A Column Monty Monster. That's right. And then it's the film about you starting the Patreon. And then there was also, but we should all see,

in the 90s she had a somewhat robust movie star career. There's Maverick, there's Nell, there's Contact, there's Anna in the King. That's her sort of 90s ranch. It's an Oscar nomination for Nell. Contact, as people forget, was a pretty big hit and it's a great movie. It was just like at the time

There's a mechus my god. Yeah, I know. It's a lot of it's long That's that's the biggest holdout and the king is kind of like a big Oscar-y movie that flops like you know And these are just a stupid idea like two thousand people should sing songs like I don't know that I want to just hear the story I heard two thousand are fast-saying because she'll take like three years in between each movie to the extent that people are like Oh, I guess maybe Jodie Foster is like dawn and then she comes back and has another like third base hit She has a couple she's true panic room and inside man. Those are the flight plan You're calling that a base hits box office. Oh box office. I'm talking box office. Flight plan is It's we she has made two films that I would call outright offensive in the 2000s.

Flight plan and the brave one. Two films that are like, when you watch them now, you're like, hmm, this is problematic. This is a tricky movie. Have not seen either. Yeah. Flight plan is basically a movie that's like, what if you suspected the brown person

on your plane was a terrorist? And you were right. Like, that's what Flight plan is. Well, Flight plan did 85 domestic. Yeah, Flight Plan was definitely a hit. Can you tell me the director? Robert Chwanky. Robert Chwanky.

Yeah. Made 89 domestic. Director of red. Pretty remarkable movie. I find almost any movie set on a plane watchable because I am so tense during a movie set up. So it was like, Jodie Foster in a thriller is like so, so effective.

Brave One is not a movie I like. Uh-huh she don't get that, she got that globe nomination. And you know, that was like that. That was Neil Jordan. That was Neil Jordan. People thought that was going to be a big, I mean, Oscar play for her and a big sort of like revenge. So, we're just like death wish. We just did death wish.

It's still like a template. I know. Once in a while people are like, I don't know, let's do a death wish with X actor. Now she's like directing television. She did some is still like a template. I know once in a while people like I don't know. Let's do a death with yeah X actor now. She's like directing television. She did some oranges and do a bunch. Yeah, and then after that I mean, well nims island Right, of course I got to give it to nims island, but like carnage the Polanski me Elysium, uh A movie that hangs her out to dry.

And she had sort of said, like, I was pretty much retired from acting. I didn't really want to act anymore. Elysium is district nine so much I called up and said, I'll do anything. And she kind of has the inside man role, but it's like the bad version of that role, right? Like she's sort of the evil rich lady. Right. And I forget which way it is because the movie is forgettable, but either she filmed it with a French accent, they made it dub it to American later or vice versa.

Oh dear. And then, the whole performance is ADR because they wanted her to do a different voice than what she did on set. And then last year, who told Artemis? Yes, you forget?

Which she is really fucking good in. It's not a movie I love, it's one of the movies. I mean, I just ran like, I'm ready to love this movie. You don't. Love the concept, love the cast. The cast is on the other side. I don't know either. It's sort of like John Wick, except John Wick I love it. Me neither. I'm like, I'm ready to love this move. You don't. Love the concept, love the cast. The cast is it. It's like, I mean, it's sort of like John Wick,

except John Wick I love. Right. That's another screenplay movie though. It's another screenplay movie. I mean, I'm gonna be 100%. Totally. And it's not like it flops it, but it doesn't really get past like cool ideas.

She is pretty phenomenal. She's great. And she's giving a really funny performance. It's a full body performance. It's wild that she's in it. It's so It's a full body performance. She's in it. Well, I feel like I don't know. She wants to just like this. I think she just liked the script.

So as you're right. So basically people are like, oh, I guess she just directs now and kind of chills out. And then once in a while she'll do a hotel art. Right. She'll show up at the Golden Globes to speak up for Mel Gibson. Yeah, she loves Mel. This is the thing I like like this is the thing when you like, Balansiki gives a lot of people in her film.

A lot of people in her house. She really works with the. The famous thing about her was like, she was the one child star who didn't fall apart. Like that's for a long time. Right. She was like, she's the exception that proves the rule. And yet in the middle of it,

she has the John Wayne Hinckley thing where, and like, where like, it's this huge burden on her life and she like, somehow overcomes that psychologically. And I think that in some way made her more predisposed to be like, these guys are damaged, but like, I see the good in them or something like that. And I think she had to get past this element of, oh, this terrible thing happened. And I can't think it was about me.

She also was like, a massive star had won two Oscars was like an a-list box office leading lady and was was often afraid are not interested in being one. Sure. I think Hollywood was always ready to put her at the top. But the other fascinating thing about her was she was at her peak living in a total glass closet in terms of her sexuality with a total like don't ask don't tell attitude of, there was never any denial, there were no beards. You know, like 97 or 98, she like has a child through Envredo fertilization with a partner,

and everyone like reports on it, but just doesn't like directly say, like she is married to a woman. She out now. She is, she gave a speech at some award show at the Globes, but this was like fairly recently, right? Like, I'm like a lifetime achievement award and she gave this sort of odd speech. And she said like my wife, who she's now divorced from, but she like when she finally came out, she just sort of said like, you know, that person I've been married to for like 15 years

and we just don't directly acknowledge it. I felt the memory that she gave that speech and everyone was like, did Jody Foster just come out and then in the press room they were like, did you just come out and she's like, no. I think she doesn't like the press that much. No, that's fine. I mean fair. I also read it at the time as her saying,

like that wasn't me coming out, everyone knows I'm gay. You know? Sure. Because there was never any sort of like diversion with her, which like, you know, it wasn't even like, oh rumors have dogged, it was like, oh yeah, Joey Foster is gay. She's gay, everyone knows that. I want to point out she also directed the black mirror episode. Interesting.

People forget. Yeah, directed Archangel. Oh, right. Which is not my favorite episode of black mirror. It's a far worse episode. She gets good performances. She does. I just find it very interesting that even if she didn't like publicly come out at her peak, Oh, right. Which is not my favorite episode of Black Mirror. It's fun. She gets good performances. She does.

I just find it very interesting that even if she didn't like publicly come out at her peak, she was essentially the first like major, major game movie star. Yeah, sure. You know, there was no alternate narrative being thrown around about her. I guess so. You ever think about how the narrative more became

like why hasn't she come out? Like why hasn't she done the before? Right, right. right right yeah I think about how in home for the holidays she cast us the hot guy who might tempt Holly Hunter to move home as David Strathare and like good taste what a call what a call I'm trying to think of like are there scenes or sequences we haven't talked about obviously we have talked about some of the lands. I'm trying to think of like, are there scenes or sequences we haven't talked about? Obviously, we have talked about some of the major sequences and have your running time right by understanding that. This will get a sense of the transition.

One thing I want to shout out, this movie was a legendary scary VHS cover movie for me. My parents rented it because I think, even though it was like, I'm a young kid when this comes out, so it's probably appeared with, they're probably seeing not a lot of movies, but I'm sure this thing was such a big thing

that they were like, all right, let's rent silence to the lambs. The poster, iconic poster, Jody Foster's face in extreme contrast. It weirdly doesn't even look like her. It feels like it's own piece of iconography. Yes. With the moth over her face. Yeah. I mean, you guys know the poster. Yeah.

The greatest poster. I was like, what is this movie? It's about lambs. Yeah. What is it? And when my parents were like, no, we can't explain this one. I had two young is just that I don't know where to begin. I had the exact same relationship with it. And I knew it was scary. I knew that. Well, the image is upsetting, but you can't put your finger on why. And the weird, the skull on the back of the month. What's up with that?

Is that just how it happens to look or is that then making a movie about a monster mom? Like, is that a real species? Is this movie about a moth man? Right. And the prophecies. That might be about the moth man. Moth man prophecies.

Great fucking movie. I have not seen it. It's actually a really, it's really nice. I'm aware. Like it's yeah. No, I, we have talked about so much of this movie and we haven't talked about two of the most famous sequences like at all.

I just want to point out also there is the iconic Hopkins poster that is never used. Yes. They had the reverse essentially. Right. Carry on. This gross poster. Right. Carry on. This gross, this gross poster.

I think there's a reason they were like, you know what? The foster one is the good balance light and dark. There is something. Looks like you're going to get eaten by Darth Maul. Yeah. His face is totally red. There's something about the blankness of Foster's face that makes the poster really eerie.

I was also thinking it's a rare example of a poster that totally works on its own as just a striking piece of iconography. I don't get what this poster's saying. I don't understand what's going on in this movie, but it catches my eye and it makes me curious. And also, after you have seen the movie, the poster is more impressive.

100%. You're like, that's an incredible visual encapsulation. Of what's going on here. Totally. But it's something that doesn't sell those things to you and spoil it for you going into the theater and then the poster becomes It's own individual work of art great. My great fucking movie. Okay. What did you want to talk about the second hour of this movie? We've barely we haven't talked about like there's no way to talk about the setup Yeah, and we have to talk about like just escape you're right

We haven't talked about the Buffalo Bill's house. Right. Can I do Bliet? Yeah. Can I do my scene round down because I think this will serve as a transition to get into the bits we haven't done. Okay. Hopkins has nine scenes in the movie. Sounds great. I, you know, I can't say I was 100% accurate. He's nine for nine. He's nine for nine. He's nine for nine. He's nine for nine. But my rule was if he is in a scene my stopwatch is going Mm-hmm, and if the scene ends my stopwatch stops that is what the rules should be I feel like this weird screen time thing became more about when do we see them on screen as I already said right And so like what is it 12 minutes? There's some like number out there. Right, where they're like, he's actually only in the movie for 16 minutes.

No, he's only, his face is only directly on screen for 16 minutes, but that's mostly because of the fucking cinematic language of this movie, which is separating Clarice and Hopkins. His dialogue is over those shots. There's no disputing this. Right, you count the scenes, he's in not the- Right, so I counted any scene in which he was working yes where he is affecting the scene where he's a character in the scene so even when he escapes

And he's wearing the fake face and all of that that is a scene. He isn't that is true though the right Hannibal does have a whole scene where he's just pretending to be a dead fuck yeah But that's a see He was number two in the call sheet. They said, Mr. Hopkins, you want a coffee? And he was like, you're a thank you. Right. You want a pillow in between takes. Hopkins in that scene, okay?

So you think anyone got to eat those lamb chops? It's a classic example of great looking food not getting any meat. But I think the drives you the crazy. It's been crazy. They're rare. Okay. The first meeting scene, six minutes and 40 seconds.

The second meeting scene after the rain where he gives you the towel, 420, right? Do you want me to add these times together or have you already done it? I've added together. Okay. Okay. Then it's 530, I think is the third meeting

where they start the quid pro quo thing, right? Quid pro quo. Scene 4 130 is Anthony held with the cage on his face, talking about the transfer. Then scene 5, I believe is him meeting with the senator. Yeah, with the senator. That's 330.

Scene six is the big one. That's the sounds of the Lambs monologue. That's seven. Yeah, and then him in the weird cell and all that stuff. Right. Then him escaping from the cell, the attack is for his screen time in terms of... And then also the phone call at the end. Please.

Oh, I'm sorry. Then it's the two minutes of him wearing the other guy's face getting out, right? Right. Ending with him waking up in the ambulance. And then scene nine is one minute, which is the phone call at the end. He's got 36 minutes and 30 seconds of screen time in this movie by my count. Right. In like a two hour movie. In a two hour movie. Regular. Now, the thing that shifts is not in much of the latter half. That's the thing, you know, because then it becomes gotta get Buffalo because the first hour of the movie, I was pretty much up to

30 minutes. And I was like, the first hour of the movie is about the two of them. Right. That's mostly what it's about. Right. And then there's a large chunk for about half an hour plus where he doesn't appear until the phone call. Yeah, because he's getting to the Caribbean. Right. But a wig he's getting the hat. Here's the thing I think that throws his conversation is, if you gender flip this, if this was somehow a movie about like,

I don't know, Eddie Redmayne and Sandra Bullock and Sandra Bullock was like a serial killer. Like, people would be like, oh, yeah, she's the lead. Of course. Because we don't expect a man to play a supporting lead role to a woman in a movie like this. But that's what this is. It's a lead role that supports the other lead. Or there's a weird version of it wherein like the cursed movie, the Danish girl, a fucking, at least if it can't, there's 100% the main character in that film.

She is the most green time. She is the main character. She is the main character. She is the main character. She is the Danish girl in that film. She is the most grand time. She is the main character. She is the famous girl in that film. She is the Janish girl in that film. And they put her in supporting because it was like a cake wall. It is so weird that she has that Oscar. It's so weird that she won and that she beat another lead performance

that should have won. Rune Mara. Yes. In Carol. Yes. The other thing was I feel like. In that case as well, Rune Mara was the actual Carol. 100% movie. She is Carol, she plays Carol. Right. It also is incredibly strange that I feel like,

right up until the nominations, everyone was like, yeah, at least if a candor is gonna get nominated for X-Mac and her, and she's probably gonna win the Oscar because it feels like a big year for her, and that will be a cool Oscar win. And then the surprise was. We were predicting the damage girl. No, we were predicting the damage girl. You, you're reading the weird blogs. No,

duh, duh, no, I know Danish girl was ex-mac in a had a ton of the surprise win. Yeah. People were kind of predicting Danish girl actress. No, they were. They were. They were. And it is supporting. There were a couple places that set that, but they ran. Yeah. No, but no, but once that once the precursor, no, once the precursor started, she was nominated in supporting actress because that was the move they made. Who had that movie?

That was the focus. That was the focus. Right, right, right. You know, Golden Globes, Golden Shmos. Oh, no, you're right. The Globes, they did that trick. Thank you. She got the double nomination and people were like,

is she gonna repeat it? But then at the SAGS, she went supporting because at the SAGS you put someone in a category and they can't be excluded and she won. And that was the moment when Rumi Mars agent called me and said she wasn't gonna do an interview with me. Oh boy. Wow.

That's sad. I was gonna talk to her because she was running and she was getting ready for an Oscar campaign and then the SAGS happened and I think that every one else was like, okay, forget it. Save your money. Alicia's sad. I was gonna talk to her because she was running and she was getting ready for an Oscar campaign and then the sags happen and I think that every one else was like, okay, forget it. Save your money. Alicia's winning. Yeah.

You doomed Rooney Morrow, David. It's not my fault. It's your fault. It's your fault. It's your fault. You're right. There was the ex-mac in a globe now. Thank you.

So yes, we've talked a lot about the major interrogation. We talked about the handhold, the handle, the, the, the, the caries, the scenes. I love all the stuff of Cassie Lamens is so good too. And such a good example of them not putting to find a point on it, but just like, such a lived in relationship. It's just like this is what a female friendships like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just was like, oh, and especially in this incredibly male dominated field, right? Where they are like having to prove themselves twice as hard at every single turn and also dealing with such Heavy awful shit all the time where it's like having a friendship of someone else who gets that scene where they're going over the Case file and figuring him out and it's all in the the demo. Lipps, first person close ups. And Cassie Lemons lips are trembling just a little bit. It's just like incredible like repeating micro expression

she keeps on making. And it is like they're excited because they're solving it. But the heaviness of what they're talking about is so disturbing that it's still affecting her psychological. I also just like that, that scene is clear. He's being like, hey, friend, figure this out with me. Like it's not like just her with like Hannibal in her head, like pouring over no time herself.

Well, another scene I love is when they watch the press conference of the Senator. And she's like, she's really smart. She knows what she's doing. She's really smart and explains to what she's doing. She's really smart. And explains to everyone, like she understands the Buffalo Bill is going to have a harder time killing her. If she has a name, if she's a she, which then transitions into it puts the lotion on its skin and then it gets the hose again, right, which is like Ted Levine's

best seen as an actor where he's fully playing talking about like the dem, like, it's human being. It's a guy working as hard as he can to play the monster. And to totally depersonize her. That scene is insanely upsetting. And so, because this movie is not that violent. No, even though it's, you know, a bad guy who eats people and there's some eating.

And there's nothing viscerally graphic in that scene. Not in that scene. And really the most graphic thing in this movie is a severed head in a jar, which is creepy. And the odds, and then all, and the skin review. The face skin. I mean, that's gross. There are some gross things.

Right, right. But I think he, a cannibal. Yeah. But the scenes with her in the, ublea, in the pit. And like the, her seeing the nail and all that, like that's the stuff where you're kind of like, I might have to turn this off, I'm upset, right?

Like that's sort of the most chilling stuff in the movie. And him doing the, like the, ugh, like the weird shrieking. One touch I love this is skipping ahead to the end is that it's scored with that fucking dog barking, which is just like this dog is in pain. Very anxiety and do say. Yeah, yes.

And it's such a weird little touch that you can hear throughout the house at different times. It's so panicky, all that stuff. She's so good to Brooks. I mean, every performance in this film is incredible. Every two line performance is incredible. But her in the car, I forget that this movie has like four really strong needle drops.

But her in the car. I wanted to talk about what I wanted to. Listening to American girl, you get such a sense of who she is in temperament, but it's beautiful that's devoted to the context of her parents, right? Right. Right. That it's just it could be any random person. You don't understand the weight she's going to hold culturally. Right.

The part of it, part of Buffalo Bill's problem was that he accidentally abducted a senator's daughter. Like, he doesn't, he's not doing it for that reason, but that's like what awakens national interest. But he's also just like such a beautiful like story decision on Thomas Harris's part, which is like, that's how you explain why they're willing to deal with fucking Hannibal Lector. Right.

Because suddenly this becomes a thing that the president's weighed in on. Every time anyone goes anywhere in this movie, they go like, oh, that a Buffalo Bill case. Like everyone knows this fucking guy. He's equivalent to the zodiac killer and that like the mithologizing is getting out of hand. The president is weighing in on this. It's become such an emotional story

that it's like we can clean up any mass after the fact with Hannibal Lecter. We just need to find her now, which is great. And watching her do all the math of like, how she can figure it out, but also how she can use this case to her career, career's benefit, to be able to sort of firmly get her foot in so that she can be in our gubble within the FG.

She's ambitious, like in a normal way. Right, she gets it. She's a tiny one. There's a version of this movie where she is more cutthroat because that's often how women who are careerists are presented in the FG. Right, where she gives you fucking speech to Casey Lemons about, oh, we don't get to do it.

Sure, exactly. Or she gives us a piece of Hannibal Lecter and he's like, you don't understand how hard my life's been. Right, right, Hannibal Lecter is an ally and you know, he's like, I agree. And he bust my life's been. Right, right, right. And Hannibal Lecter is an ally. And you know, you see, like, I agree. And he busts out some stats about him and Gap. He is woke. I mean, there is like every scene he's in the movie,

he walks in and he just is like, Hey, the ally has arrived. Yes. It's weird that he on his jumpsuit wrote the future as female. And then if you turn around on the other side, it says never the less she persisted. Right. And both are written in blood. No. Okay. And then if you turn around on the other side, it says never the last she persisted.

Right. And both are written in blood. No. Okay. So I also think like, you know, red dragon, the first Harris novel, which is about like a man who he's the version of the cop who's like, I have a disease. And my disease is that I understand criminals and I'll never be cured. Right? Like I understand killers. That's like what Will Graham type is. Yeah. Whereas like this movie is all about

Hannibal trying to understand Clarice and her disease is like, I just feel like if I save this person then then finally the ocean inside me will become. Well the beauty of the title. Even though she knows it won't at this. The beauty of the title is that the title is aspirational. But she is striving for in life is to get to the silence of the title, even though she knows it won't at this, the beauty of the title is that the title is aspirational. But she is striving for in life

is to get to the silence of the lands. She wants to be in a place where she feels like she's been able to personally stop the crying because the idea that people are in that much pain and suffering flips her the fuck out. And like, it is wild at this movie, the crux of this movie is that story. Right.

Because it's not like that story, she's then like, lambs, but an anagram of lambs is this movie is that story. Right. Because it's not like that story, she's then like, lambs, but an anagram of lambs is this. And that's where he lives. Like it's not like, electric is trying to get her to realize something about the case when they're talking about her. But it is, it's such a key thing because,

as you said, like viewing Will Graham as the sort of shadow of Hannibal or vice versa, right? Sure. They're both people who have spent their lives studying the psychology of incredibly broken, dangerous people, right? And it has kind of destroyed both of them. Which is like what behavioral science,

when a mind hunter eventually is gonna be, like you know, in this movie is based on the mind hunter, Jack Crawford is the mind hunter guy. And like, that's the classic thing. Right, it's like, spend all this time with serial killers, maybe you'll sort of start to go mad yourself. And Hannibal's sort of superpower

is he understands that mind so well that it gives him such a clear vision of how fucked up humanity is and a human brain can be that it makes him into this total fucking like nihilist who wants to eat people's brains and shit. Right, it's also really smart about making Buffalo Bill someone that only Clarice could catch. Yes, that's right. That's the thing. Her magic power is understanding him as a person,

and that's what eventually unlocks it for her. And that's why that conversation is so pivotal. She has not given up on humanity yet. Yeah, 100%. Will Graham is only so successful in being able to stop Hannibal Lecter because he's already gotten to him. The soul's already started getting eaten away. And the fact that Clarice is so much still in the aspirational phase of maybe I can stop it all, maybe I can let the lambs go free and they'll stop screaming. It's kind of about the ways that men fail to understand women, and the ways that women

always understand men, and like are able to navigate within that space. Cause like, if you accept the Buffalo Bill is not trans, which demies certainly wants us to think, then he is a man who is like not comprehending that womanhood is more than this costume. He wants to put it in. Which is true.

You think that'll fix it if you just can find the right size and the right person. And the Thomas Harris thing like like Brian Fuller was making to this, is like every killer is wants to transform themselves in some way. Like he's trying to wash away his pain by becoming what he thinks of as the opposite of himself without realizing that like, it's within him at the same time.

Right. That's not the game. Right. It's not that he feels that he is a woman. It's that he wishes he were a different person. So the most drastic way he can think of making that happen. Which is why he's applied for a sex recycling surgery and rejected his Hannibal points out.

Because back then, the weight to become legally trans was you had to go essentially full-time, which means dressing as the gender that you are. You had to do that for like two years. And then you could start on hormones, and then you could do so, and like it was this, and like, clearly he's not doing that. Like he doesn't wanna take the social risk

of like going out dressed in women's clothing or whatever. Which tells you everything because you sense that he would not feel any freedom from doing that. Yeah. He is looking for some sort of magic solve to how much he hates being in his own skin, which is because of the life he's lived. You know?

I said, I do think that one of the areas in which it kind of gets at the trans experience in a way that is like damaging, is it's talking about someone who desperately does not want to be himself. And that is often, I remember for many years, I just was like, I just, I don't want to be a woman, I just don't want to be me. And the body I'm in feels wrong to me.

But that doesn't mean I want to be a woman, because it's like a huge conceptual leap to make. It's like breaking apart society on some level. And I do wonder, you know, for all the movies protests to the contrary, it does capture that element of the experience with Buffalo Bill. And I'm like, I wonder to what degree you could do a sympathetic trans reading of this character. I think you could.

I'm not gonna try it, but I think you could. Yeah, yeah, it'd be tough. But yeah, you go like like it takes 20 plus years after this movie for us to start getting like trans characters played by trans actors. That's where you're directed by trans. Right. And that's like, that's what five years ago. And even that is offensive and misguided projects. Right. Well, once Eddie Redmayne did it, then Hollywood was like, okay, everybody who's had to do it. And he's done it.

That's it. We filed a little for a little sick of this. That's why I went to Scarlett Johansson tried to do it. Nope. Eddie Redmayne did it. Yeah, that was the other road. It's done, you missed your window. The other thing I noticed this, and I don't know,

is whenever Hannibal's talking to Clarice, his mind immediately goes to the worst thing. So like when he went to her dad dies, she goes to live with her dad's cousin. He's like, and did he do all terrible things? He always goes there. And I think it's partly that he just can't resist like pushing a button, but also like, he just assumes the world is like completely overflowed.

And when she shows up, he's like, oh, so they sent you because they think, I'll want to fuck you, right? And then he's like, just Jack Crawford is completely overflowing. And when she shows up, he's like, oh, so they sent you because they think, I'll want to fuck you, right? And then he's like, just Jack Crawford want to fuck you. And she's going to sort of deflecting all that stuff. But he's always just like, yeah, no, it has to be the worst thing, right? Because he spent his life studying.

Yeah, that's something. Right, right. The worst psychological mechanisms a person can have. And then, where's Clarice's more, like even though she took a lamb and it was too heavy and she couldn't save the lamb. Yeah. Like she's still like, you know what,

I'm gonna keep trying to save the lamb. The smart thing about the end of this movie is it understands that you can defeat minor demons but you can never defeat the devil. Like, Renable Lecter is always gonna escape. Renable Lecter is always gonna be out there in the world. But Clarice's approach can work for a time. You can save one woman, you can stop one villain.

It's right. Why electors so compelling? You're kinda like, yeah, this kind of isn't belong in jail. He's like a cage d'annibal. Like you're like, I know, like he just has that feeling where he should be out there, even though that's scary. You know what I mean? Like the idea of him operating at full power

is kind of thrilling. The scene with the senators incredible. I mean aside Like, you just like the idea of him operating at full power is kind of thrilling. The scene with the senators incredible. I mean, aside from the fact that obviously you have like the most iconic thing back to Baltimore, but him with the straight jacket, the orange jumpsuit on the stretcher with the mask, which is just, I, it, another thing we're watching is waiting for the first time is a 15 year old. I was like, okay, but I've seen like a thousand fucking parodies of the mask. Sure.

And parodies of Jim Carrey's the mask. That's right. So do you talk about that? I've seen so many people wearing the mask as a joke and fucking putting it on a guard-pull-cute card. Yeah, got damn crystal. Right. Yeah, I'm on the Oscars stage.

That I was like, this is gonna have no power for me. And the first time they will amount it, you go, that is fucking terrifying. And watching it again last night, there's something about it, like his just wide open piercing blue eyes and his blank expression underneath and his mouth looking like it's in its own jail cell. The fact that it's like little metal bars in front of his teeth. This is just great. He's too bitey. The thing that the impersonations of it, the thing that the impersonations of it don't get

is that his eyes are darting. Just the moves. His eyes are incredible. Yeah, right. There's, yeah. He's like looking for an escape, even though he knows that he's on one. And then of course,

they will match the senator and he like starts giving the information he wants, but also it's like, he can't help himself. This is the only way to answer about press feeding. And this is like, he just can't help himself. Anthony helped like sucks, he's basic.

There's no fun there, you know? And then like he hates all of them. And he held his so good in the show, he's whole preening like, he's the best specimen I've got. You know, he's like a weird little, yeah, sorry, Karen, I'm sorry. No, and like he hates everyone else

like in his like wing, you know? I mean, the fact that he kills the other guy for throwing the semen on Clarisse is just like, please, there's a difference between me and guys like this. He basically Clarisse lost Hannibal, but then that when that happened, Hannibal's like, I owe you a solid. Yeah. Come over on McDinner. You know, that would be his usual approach. Yeah, I'll draw you. Right. Yeah. And then it's just like, this movie just has like a couple like straight-up set pieces where like the whole prison, I mean, the whole not prison, the whole escape. Escape thing Yeah, and then it's just like this movie just has like a couple like straight up set pieces

We're like the whole prison. I mean the whole not prison the whole escape escape thing is incredible sequence, right? It's just like stunning Emaching I don't know what stash is amazing on that one officer. It's the crazy He's got like the very thin but very long like a it's like a crazy variation on a fume man. Yeah. By the way, Ben's back. Ben's back. Oh, it is back.

Beautiful, Ben is back. Should I just throw up some thoughts of stuff earlier that you guys have already talked about? Yeah, probably. You're all just read a quick quote here. Shady storage units across America, love that. Hmm. I would not help anyone with a street couch

and to a van, let alone at night. I do like that in the scene, she has the agency of, this is clearly a bad idea. That they don't play her as a total naive, like sort of moron. It's like, she knows like fuck, this is the kind of thing that usually ends up

with you being put in a pit, right? And it's that basic human thing of like, in the moment you're like, I should give him benefit of the doubt. Sure, right. And then it's too late, the second, because he just backs her in and then you see. Yeah, yeah. We didn't talk about the storage locker.

That move of Hannibal being like, go visit a friend of mine. Transfer to storage locker. In real chill. Weird old cowboy man in the rain who's like, oh, I saw him cook on tomorrow and she's sliding under the door. And then that fucking setup of the carriage

with the plush interior and the headless mannequin and then the head in a jar. How long are we supposed to believe that Hannibal has been in jail that he just set up this little display and paid long enough for it to remain in the storage log. That's a great question. So that's probably 10 years, right? I mean, that's an incredible, what an artist this guy is.

Good for him. He's a big picture, thinker. It's made storage unit, like when I drive those on the highway late at night, like it's so creepy. Right, there is something about that now. There's things in those buildings, right? It's a true mystery. What are you gonna say, Emily?

I just was gonna say, fuck, I don't remember. I want Amy Tobin, the great Amy Tobin, film critic, wrote the criteria in essay. I don't know if you've read it. I've not. It's worth reading, it's very good. And she points out like that scene, there's flags everywhere.

Yeah. The scene obviously in the prison, the weird cell. I don't know how do you describe it. The weird cell in a gymnasium thing, it has the weird American flag. And when Hannibal was playing, again, makes a weird little display for everyone. Charles Napier hanging with his skin ripped. Hannibal could have just gotten out of there, but he's like, no, no, there needs to be some pomp and circumstance.

Because he needs people to respect him. Like, he needs people to recognize that he's a genius. Yes, exactly. And an artist. It's like, she's like all these tattered flags, all these relics of America. Like, this is all very intentional. Yeah.

Yeah. I really advise you to read it. It's really good. I'll read it. The TV show went a little, like it did great stuff with like the death tabloes. But like what I like about this movie is that you can sort of, you can bend your brain in a way where you're like, okay, yeah, I get like how he did this, even though he had like 10 minutes to like, the ceiling.

Yeah. But it is like, it's a pretty like even knowing where it goes, it is such a beautifully constructed extended set piece. Yeah. From like, I mean, they've set up the pen like 15, 20 minutes earlier. Mm-hmm. So you see him look at it, then a full scene later, you see Anthony Held not be able to find his pen.

Yeah. And then they sit on it for like another 10 minutes before he takes the thing out of his mouth. It's after he's had the whole clueless conversation, after he's been transferred, then he takes it out and then it's just like, how's he fucking gonna get out of this? Then to switch over to the swat guy perspective. That's what I love. That's the beauty. That takes a while.

Like you really stick with those guys one of them is an actor I know who is it? It's Chris eyes. I can't remember again. There's someone else in there who's face I recognize I can't remember the thing I love about Tommy is he lets things breathe. Yes, I feel like so many other Movies like this would just be like bang bang bang here's a face bite and like this is Takes its time the tension of the elevator thing of of all of them realizing, like, oh fuck, guns out, call the battalion, seeing it stop on three, and then going like, wait, what the fuck is going on? I also like that you don't see him rip the guy's skin on.

Yeah. Just the shot of him taking the skin mask off is enough for you to process. Like, oh, he did all of that. Oh, that's so, you know, like that's all you need. Like your brain does all the work for you. But it's such a fine balance of like, and that the body on top that he switched the clothes that they think that that's what's going on.

Yeah, of course. Right. Like all the sort of misdirection stuff. But I also think he did some regular escape stuff. Right. That's some skin removal, new face escapes. He also basically is putting Buffalo Builder's shame. He like jury rigged a human face in like five seconds. What I was talking about how this show is television now, like the

ex files, Rips off this, this movies, visual palette, and then every show on CBS Rips off the ex files. So like that's why now we live in silence of the Lambs world. Like the thing about television now is it's so graphic and you see so much of the violence. It's like that's fine, whatever. But if it's CSI and criminal minds and SVU and all these shows don't exist about it.

Let's zoom in to the, whoo, right. And even like X-Files, a show I love, did a lot of that. And this movie I always forget how non-gore it is. That's what I was gonna say. It's crazy because he doesn't sanitize it. Like he deals with it. I mean, proper weight of like these are horrific things happening and you can't sugarcoat them, but it is a rare movie of this ilk that does not kind of glamorize and ask you to get

some perverse thrill from like how fucked up it is. One of the most horrifying shots in the movies when he grabs the guy and you have that shot of Hannibal like biting the camera essentially and then you see him kind of like biting the guy. But in another movie such as Red Dragon, he would then like tear away and like blow away some chunk of flesh, right?

And the guy's face will be so fucked up. And when they cut back to the guy, he's got like, well, yeah, he's got a bright one. He's got one small fight. A little less wound. Yeah, he's got a bite wound. He's got one small bite wound. A little less, I mean, it's the classic horror thing. It's like your mind is much more fucked up. What's scary about is you don't understand it.

It's just like that. It's just not normal human interaction. And like that's, I also, right, Charles Napier's just watching it being like, Jesus Christ. But also the way he strikes the physicality. I mean, he's not like, also the right, that's a way. But also he's like dead. Like, he's not like, also then, right, that's a way. But also, he's like, dead. Like, he just goes into his whole robot

when he's doing the repeated, you know, caching. That's the nice thing. The banality of evil thing. Like, as much as he then, like, still like, put it in a nice package and like, put on a show for them, it is the fact that, like, you know,

you watch something like minehunter and it makes it a lot more glamorous than it actually is. I forgot to love Mine Hunter. I'm not saying that in a negative way. I'm not saying that in a negative way. Great. I'm just saying it's a different approach.

Because one of the things that this movie does is kind of at times feel like a documentary. I actually think that Mine Hunter is kind of breaking the silence of the Lambs thing because it is deliberately saying we don't show is deliberately saying, we don't show stuff. Yeah, we don't show stuff to the murderers. Right, sure. That is to show that that realizes that

what was scary about silence of the lambs was that conversation was terrifying. Yeah, 100% conversation is terrifying. I think the room with a person like this is terrifying. Yeah. And also mind hunter, I think it's just about like me reading a Wikipedia entry late at night of some serial killer.

And you're just sort of slowly reading it. And you're like, that's it. Why am I interested in this? Why do I want to know more? And why am I suddenly so frightened even though I'm only reading a thing? Right. Just so that the weird fascination we have with,

I want to understand why a person would do this or what they did. It is so beautiful that Clarisse ends up being the one to catch him because she is trying to just finish off all the loose ends. And the fucking fake out. Yeah. The thing that should not work. Every time I watch you, it works. And I'm just like, everybody's ripped it off

once you know what's happening. And I'm like, it's not gonna get to me every time. Yeah, every single time. And then one of the greatest action sequences of all time is the night vision sequence. Even though it's very brief, like you think of it as this very long tense thing, it's not that long because the concept is so terrifying.

The second he turns on the night vision and Demi switches to his perspective which we've never been in before. I guess a little bit looking down at the ubleed, but it's sort of like a jarring switch. I also love that thing. I thought I was with my hero. Now I'm watching my poor hero be stocked in the night. And the questioning is great leading up to it.

The moment where Buffalo Bill realizes that she might catch him and he stifles a laugh. Like a really sad laugh. Their interaction is really interesting. Right, then goes for the gun and then she goes down to the basement and you have that amazing brook smith scene of her being like, don't worry, I've saved you. And her just being like, fuck you, say, get me out of here now. Now it is, as Abe peep.

No, I got to catch a guy first. She's like, fuck you, each shit. Like she's like, there's no, like, oh my god, bitch. Yeah, get me out of yeah. Every bad thing. Oh, thank you. There's none of that. Of course. I love that a female cop is rescuing me.

That feels great. Like she's like, you don't get this fucking guy. He's gonna, you're gonna join me in this pit in five seconds. Yeah. Get me. Now, and of course there's that we forgot there's the whole thing which is she lures the dog down, which is, you know. Yeah, it's great.

Being very innovative. That's just, everybody in this movie gets to be smart. Even Buffalo Bill gets to be smart. And it's just like that makes it so much better. Yes, 100%. Doesn't the sequence, because we know the space, kind of what he lives in, what the basement is like. But when you're actually exploring it

and the perspective of the handheld shots, it is the moths flying around the industry, playing in the back. I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that. That's another classic, Demi, like, let me, I want to look at these guys' faces for a second. I want to understand these people beyond just like exposition dumb people.

It's like when you'd go to your grandparents house, you'd go on the basement and have a bunch of weird shit and they'd be like, don't get too close to the pit. You'll fall into the pit. Like, yeah. And the fact that it's someone else's weird house that he took over and put like half of his shit into it, but it's also like half stuff he just hasn't gotten rid of. Yeah, and it's like you see, yeah,

the elements are like, there's a map of the US and it's like, there's no, let's just somebody else hung that up. That's another life that we don't get any part of. Right. Some of the house, I feel like, or some of the design, and I might be wrong, it's Geen, is the, I feel like, are some of the design, and I might be wrong. It's Geen. Is the, there is like,

they kind of did a little bit of like touch to Buffalo Bill with the, incorporating that real serial killer. Buffalo is like Ted Bundy and Ed Geen, or like it's something we were talking about in those things. Like he has the Ted Bundy like, luring the lady with the cast and all that. But it is nice that like,

Clarie solves it independently. Calls Glenn and he's like, we figured it is nice that like, Clarie solves it independently. Calls Glenn and he's like, we figured it out, but like good job. Right, right. Now just like finish it up, you know, do the follow up interview. Right. But she goes in having accomplished everything on her own.

So she is fully loaded to be able to handle the situation. Right, she's her hypothetically. And then it's just some of the most terrifying shit in the history of cinema. She's herpy. She's, I'm sorry, what? She's herpy, she's fully loaded. Oh, she's her hypothetically. And then it's just some of the most terrifying shit in the history of cinema. She's her. I'm sorry. What? She's her. She's fully loaded. Oh, she's fully loaded. Some of them was horrifying shit. I just need it to get it out. Yeah, congratulations. It is just like the level of like restraints and sort of like the

precision of the timing and the blocking on the bills, POV, through the night vision goggles reaching out to her face, constantly almost touching her, but missing. And foster just is like killing that scene. Right. I mean, playing the complete as I don't know how they actually shot that. Yeah, no, I don't know what she could or couldn't see, but she is perfectly playing someone

who does not think that the killer is that close to her, but understands that she is at immediate risk. His hands are out at least coveting. I know. I mean, Buffalo Bill's kind of a turf, if you think about it. It can be 100%. You get your happy ending, she says.

Well then, of course, I'm having a friend for dinner. Right, then there's a- Great, great closing line. Oh, pretty good. Yeah. I feel like Hannibal thought of that. Like six years ago he was like, man, if I ever get out and I get to do an ominous phone call,

I'll say that. But that is the thing that, Hannibal had a wrecked lecture wrote this movie. Yes, it is the thing that doomed the public into thinking they wanted to see five more Hannibal movies. That's true. Because you're ending it such a tee up, but it's a tee up for a thing you actually don't want to see him follow through on.

That story doesn't really matter. Not really. You don't want to see him eat Anthony Held. That long walk away. You don't want to see them like, like, hit on the weird romantic undertones. You don't want to see any... Back to lector. Back to lector.

Yeah. That long walk away, to me is always just like, I take it as, because he disappears into he disappears into the crowd. It's just like there are monsters among us. Exactly. It's so effective The fact that he never fades to black the fact that it just stays on and on and on and on and it's just like somewhere now Hannibal Lecter is existing outside of this frame. Yes Getting ready and shout out. He's got a jaunty little Baham, a hamian hat in his wig and a wig. He's got a jaunty little Baham, a he-mean hat in his wig. And a wig. He's got like long hair.

And sunglasses. So I watch Hopkins put that costume. I was like, yeah, I'm doing this. This is me for the next time. This is my life. This is my life. It's like his Twitter account now. It's his name.

Twitter account is incredible. Okay, box office game. Let's do it. February 14, 1991. I just want to say this is the era when I was paying a lot of attention to the box office So I might see how we do yeah This film premiered at the Berlin Film Festival where one best director and then Came in two theaters February it opens number one 13 million

Pretty strong opening adjusted for inflation that would be 30 Wow, you know So like a good opening is the president's day weekend so to four day week and the domestic total is 113 130 Which is just one is two seventy nine was a huge hit and worldwide I think it was two seventy nine like it also did 72 world one crazy well overseas 100% yeah, just Big old Like it also do 72 world run crazy well overseas 100% yeah, just just a big old Colossal fucking hit. Okay, so number one 13 solenoid lamps number two number two is a it was number one the previous week when it came out Was a huge hit of the year that I feel like is now forgotten and it was like

Trugging big movie star going series. There's no idea what it is the big we start but he had not gone serious before she She had not gone serious before. She. She had knock on serious before? I mean, I mean, not a leading role. She was seen as more of a comedy actress. I feel like, and this is her being like, she's an Oscar. I can be in a thriller. No.

Okay. She was seen as a comedy actress, and now she's gonna be in a thriller. Oh, you know what? It's not whoopee. No. I didn't realize this movie was serious, but is it a bird on a wire?

It is not. Oh, fuck. But is it Goldie? No. Huh. But is it someone of a Goldie ilk? Is it that kind of comedy I guess? I mean, in terms of the she'd been in some rom-coms, yes.

Is it McRion? New. Is it Julia? Julia Romney? Sleeping with the enemy? Correct. Final total on sleeping with the enemy, please. 90?

101. Wow. Huge hit. A movie really forgot. Like, you know, people do not remember sleeping with the enemy. I genuinely thought that came out later that year. Eighth biggest film of the year. Wow.

Huge hit. Yeah, huge. Time for a sleeping with the enemy remake. And you know, the of yeah, the atmosphere. It's gonna be a fleabee. I'm sure. I'm gonna only watch it at night. Yeah, huge time for us sleeping with the enemy remake and you know the other yeah Um, we're watching it like the other big hits of the year terminator to Robin Hood right Beauty to be sounds of the lamb city slickers hook the atmosphere like weird right but like all those movies have at least some Cultural tail, right right? This is a movie the enemies that number eight and it's sort of like, oh, okay. Yeah. I guess

I remember that that movie you talk about like things being cyclical and culture always being this way. This is a perfect example of a year where like almost everything is some sort of reboot or seek fuller adaptation or some. Because then you have father of the bride. Nate had gone two and a half like the big hits of the year. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles too. Right. I saw all these fuck. Fear, which is a remake. Yeah. You know, you know, you know, like that big hits of the year. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2. Right, I saw all these fucking things. Kate Fear, which is a remake, you know. Like that's like a Hoi Ditoitio remake. Star Trek 6.

Right. Crazy. The Prince of Tides, of course, was based on a DC comic. Yeah. It was based on Sega Genesis. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's actually weirdly an adaptation of Golden Axe.

Just no one ever talks about that. It's based on the Trident Card Series by Tom's. Now, number three is a new entry this week. It is a film we have long discussed doing on this podcast. Ben is a King Ralph. It is King Ralph. Ben was pumping his fist. I knew it.

What a year. Oh, big, good man. What was the king? Yeah. I was literally gonna make a King Ralph reference earlier in this podcast. I don't wanna take that from Ben. I was like, that, good man. What was the king? Yeah, I was literally gonna make a king Ralph reference earlier in this podcast. I was like, I don't wanna take that from Ben. I was like, that's king Ralph.

It's such a good movie. One of these is, well, it's very aesthetic because I don't like snooty people. I hate him. Uh-oh. Yeah, I don't like him. I don't like aristocrats. I don't like people who are bullies

because you know, you're not as smart as them. King Ralph's here goes in there. And he's like, I like rock and roll, and I like sandwiches and y'all are weird. You like big guys named Ralph. That's your favorite movie show. That's true. And Quibi's calling me right now. They want to know if you want to be King Ralph

and the King Ralph series. As long as it's a documentary and I go and I kick the queen out of her chair. Get out of here. and I go and I kick the queen out of her chair. Get out of here. Here's the thing I want to say about King Ralph's poster. A lot of things I love. Okay.

One, the billing. John Goodman, Peter O'Klaugh. Great billing. He has that our tool made it to the poster. But he has to be below. That's only two, right. Two, it's a classic double tagline. Uh-huh.

One tagline explaining and two is a proper tagline. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. So they're like, this is too complicated. We need a tagline that explains. The taglines are like two weeks to go. So on Lawrence was a normal lawyer.

Exactly. So the regular tagline is the tagline you'd expect, a comedy of majestic proportion. Not a good tagline, the tagline you'd expect a comedy of majestic proportion Not a good tagline, but at least like okay, it's like a Q's the comedy watch your fucking mouth It's a great tagline very good. Here's the top tagline. Okay. That's so funny. Here it is Yeah, a great tragedy is to follow the royal family leaving what only one heir to the throne Not so funny. You're not laughing.

You don't think it's a smart business practice to sell your comedy by saying a great tragedy. But no, so here, if you were following, as I believe these poster people sort of figure out, like how your eyes would move across. So you're first, you're like, good man in O'Toole, you're like, huh, then great tragedy. You're like, uh-oh, but then your eye scans across.

Now, here's the Queen's crown. Yeah. But it's a top the head of Goodman. Yeah. And he's wearing a shirt that says, and I quote, Las Vegas. Yes. And there's a couple of dice on it.

Wow. I hate, I hate what I'm about to do, but David, you seem to kind of broken up about the thought of the royal family die. Oh, Jesus. What's up with that? It seemed weirdly invested in, I think, just because you've seen it. You seem to kind of broken up about the thought of the royal family die. Oh, Jesus. What's up with that? It seemed weirdly invested in a thing just because you've seen it. The tragedy has been falling the royal family.

Like, what are you trying to add? Like, I sort of... What, I mean, I did it. I mean, inadvertent gas. This is true. It would be sad. We did, yes. Oh, look, we all would be sad.

Oh, you can get a real big. Yeah, I grew up. David... That was gonna draw it out. You mean, I grew up in the was gonna draw it out. You mean I don't didn't want you to. Okay, number four at the box. Number fours. Numbers four and five of the box office are two of the giant hits of 1990.

Okay. One one best picture and one I think was probably the biggest movie of 1990. It's gotta be dancers of wolves in homelong. That's correct. There we go. In that order? Uh, no, homelong then dancers of wolves, uhelown. That's correct. There we go. In that order? No, homelown then dances of wolves, which are respectively 14 and 15 weeks into their runs.

Homelown, can you tell me the final total? The final total of homelown was 220? 285. That makes no sense. How big does that? How big does that? The inflation is $600 million. It's a lot of money.

It's infinity war. Right, right. You know, Adjust the inflation home alone. What if the wet bandits were in the new event? Disney owns that movie now. Kevin Feige. Kevin Feige should make it.

He should get a passion. He's back. Clearly loves working all the time. Definitely isn't baffled by questions such as like, what's it like to not have been in a movie for to be honest the only thing he loves more than being in movies again is talking about those movies uh... they're they're Disney plusing home alone they are and they are didn't Disney plusing a heads in the double bag

uh... yes some of the other you're David i'm sorry that's going on a peshy plus. Peshy plus. Gone fishing again. Nine heads in a duffle bag. My aunt, video, I don't know. I was shit. I could have had a third good dumb. My aunt, Sheila. My aunt, Sheila.

Hey, it's another peshy movie. My aunt, Vanny, is trans culture. Please don't you. Maybe that's what peshy wants to go for. That is true. Peshy plus. Oh. Oh. Peshy is the only cis. That is true. Pesci plus.

Pesci's the only cis man still allowed to play a trans woman. I have to create it. I speak for the community. Just because it's like, well, Pesci's in a movie. Let's just give him some room. Just so rarely. We're like whatever it takes. We got to get him back up on that screen. Some other big movies.

I got a LA story. You got never ending story too. So two stories. Oh, sorry, it's a good movie. I've never seen it. You got never ending story too. So two stories. Oh, sorry, it's a good movie. Yeah, I've never seen it. Yeah, very good, Mike. You have nothing but trouble opening this week. Yeah, the,

much more than a quick bomb. Yeah, yeah. You have white fang, which I remember watching on videos a kid and being kind of freaked out by. Yeah. And awakenings. Another Oscar holdover. Yes, a weird film.

Yeah. And I thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. You're the best in the biz. Primetime? Primetime, I can't say right now, we're working on, we have a season two, we're pitching out to get sponsors and stuff.

So there is a season two in the works, you cannot say what it is or what it will be coming out. My hope is that I will be able to say what it is when this episode drops. I'll do that on Twitter at TDOTI. Great. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.

One of the best follows on the internet. And also, this is a great place to plug that. I think you're interesting is coming back as a series exclusive. We made up of J-Leno. Just talking to J-Leno. Right. No, I also have a book about the X-Files. I'll show that I talked to you earlier.

Monster of the week. Monster of the week. Monster of the week. Monster of the week, the complete critical companion to the X files. And the real reason I'm here, my scripted show, Arden, is started season two, December 30th. We hope we haven't recorded anything yet, and this is early October or so.

But yeah, but it's a podcast. It's a podcast. Arden. Yeah, Arden, it was in season two right now. So please go listen to that. Check it out. Trades time. It's time.

Fun. Best in the best. Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. You're talking about yourself. True. Yeah.

And the Divine Producer Am. You won several potty awards, right? For Best Podcasts. I'd rather not talk about this. I made the mistake of campaigning as supporting. It's like a... But if we missed anything, listeners, it's that time of year, we need some ratings, some reviews.

Oh! So, Wano, instead of tweeting at us, or, and of course you could still do it if you prefer, but as a part of it is frightening. Wano instead of tweeting at us or and of course you can still do if you prefer Perhaps maybe a little rating of what we missed can I make one One of us five stars can I make one last pitch to the listeners please I know March madness is coming up This is where this is coming on January. Yeah, I know you guys are thinking about what that line up is I don't know what's gonna be in it my wife Libby Hill TV Awards editor indie Indie Wire, has made it a goal of her life

to be on every movie podcast talking about Bison Tenielman. And- So Columbus wins. You was gonna break it last year. Please vote, Chris Columbus listeners. I want to make my life's wife hell because she will have to watch Bison Tenielman dozens of times.

Well, one of the most unpleasant movies to watch. Yeah, truly. Just one of those movies where your eye just kind of slips off the screen where you're like, this is still going on, but also you constantly feel like there are ants crawling on your skin. Somehow watching it makes you feel like physically

like jeeterie. So if you want my wife Libby Hill to be on this podcast to talk to, just be like, Griffin, why are you talking about this right now? I want that more than anything. Vote Columbus by Centennial Man, baby. Next week, Philadelphia. That's right.

We're heading to the, I don't know, whatever. Thank you all for listening. Please don't have to make me subscribe. I was gonna try to say something funny and my brain just fizzled out. It happens. Thanks, thanks for good at first social media. Lay my government her a few subscribers. I was gonna try to say something funny and my brain just fizzled out. It happens. Thanks, thanks for good at first social media. Lay my government for a theme song.

Joe Bonne pet rounds for Artwork. Go to Blanky's R-rated at Conference of Real Life. You say some little bit like a cheese steak. I was thinking, but I couldn't put the math together fast enough. I'm no good while hunting. Go to the bite shirts and Patreon. I have around this time, maybe right,

by before or after this, we'll be releasing our official performance review of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Not since the Star Wars days, Gether is coming on with us, and we're going to review every credited character in endgame. And I'm sure we'll talk about Kit Fistout. Probably a time. to review every credited character in end game. And I'm sure we'll talk about Kit Fistout. Probably a time. So yeah, check that out.

And as always, Jay Leno slides in the DMs like Giffil. Can I do something very unexpected? Yeah, sure. We'll merge in a spotlight. Sure. Go ahead. Okay. So in the late 1990s, Todd McFarland, he of the comic books, first, Marvel, but then eventually

creates a much comics, yes. Sounds image that comes from the... Weirdly like owns the Edmonton Oilers maybe or something like that. Huge and hockey. Also at one point in time, owned both Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire's record breaking home run balls. Weird. He bought the balls.

Yeah. He lost them. He had to sell them because he named a pedophile mobster character in a spawn comic after a hockey player because he's such a big hockey fan who's like, oh, funny Easter egg and then the guy sued him for defamation. And he had to pay the guy like tens and millions of dollars so we had to sell his baseballs.

Carry on. It was very obsessed with Todd McFarlane as a young man largely because at the peak of spawns like cultural relevance all the toy companies wanted to get the rights to spawn. And he was like, fuck you, you guys suck. I'm starting my own toy companies. And everyone was like, this is stupid, you're gonna fail. And it succeeded wildly.

And the spawn toys sold really well, but the thing that pushed him out of the edge was he started a line called Movie Maniacs. That was, what if you took all the interesting characters in adult films who toy companies have been afraid to touch, but also who are the only visually interesting character in a movie. So you couldn't make an entire toy line off of that movie,

but you can put them all in as a graphic. Okay. So he did a series that was like, Freddie Krueger, Jason Voorhees, Leatherface. Sure. When Michael Myers, I think was maybe in the first batch. Whenever. That then became one of the 10 greatest selling toy lines

of the year, along with Hot Wheels and Barbie and shit. Yes. So immediately people were like, Hannibal. Hannibal. Right. And for years and years, everyone's trying to get Hannibal. And no one could because Hopkins was like, I don't want to be a toy.

Like Hopkins was like always shutting it down. And it was like, I don't want to be a toy. Hopkins was always shutting it down. And it was like 10 plus years of wind up until someone was able to make not McFarlane, the people who had left McFarlane star their own company, two Hannibal Lecter figures, one on the stretcher, one which is really unsettling of Hannibal with the Billy Club being able to attack the guy, being able to attack the guy, Jesus Christ. But the thing I want to show you folks, this is that one. That's that one.

It comes with the little cell. The thing I want to show you folks that I find very funny is the series of mini-mates, which are Lego-esque figures. Oh no. Of the Sans Little Lamb's crew. And Bullock, they're gotta get a fun copop. I mean, you talk about the iconography.

You don't have one? I think that's the thing. That's Michael Sundance. Yeah, sure. But these are the Sansa the Lambs. Oh, wow. Yeah, so there's Clarice. Okay.

I does speak to how sort of iconic every character in the movie is that they can be recognized even in this form. Here's Buffalo Bill holding him off with a painted on Nippelring. And then a hand up a Hannibal. These are bizarre. I don't like these. So Hannibal looks a lot like Nixon. It does. He does look like Nixon.

David, yeah, he looks like your best friend. I would like to add to the merchandise. There is now a... Okay, it's him on the gurney with the mask. Yeah, it looks like your best friend. I would like to add to the merchandise. Spire is now a... Okay, it's him on the gurney with the mask. Yeah, make sense. I've always wanted Buffalo Bill's necklace. So everyone knows where I could get that necklace. I think it looks cool.

That's it. Great.