Blank Check with Griffin & David - Sleepy Hollow with David Lowery

Episode Date: February 24, 2019

Writer and director, David Lowery (The Old Man & the Gun, A Ghost Story) joins Griffin and David to discuss 1999's procedural horror, Sleepy Hollow. But when we die does the headless horseman come for us? Who are the cheek bone boys? Was Taylor Hicks a ten percenter? Together they examine the work of Emmanuel Lubezki, babies with mustaches, CGI deer and the crypt keeper. 

The Horseman was a Hessian mercenary sent to the shores by German princes to keep Americans under the yoke of England. But unlike his compatriots who came for money, the Horseman came for love of podcasts. That's not Depp, right? No, it's Michael Gambon. Michael Gambon, which I was pretty off on that one, too. Way off. Way off. No offense.

But Michael Gambon is a very, you a very he talks in a very particular way. I couldn't find it. Hello everybody, my name is Griffin Newman. I am David Sims. I'm Michael Gambon. No! He's got kind of like a That was him talking for real. It comes from lower. It comes from like the spleen.

I feel like I'm getting to Ian McKelleny. Michael Gambon. You sound like Michael Goff in this movie. I sound a little like Michael Goff. He's got a very particular voice, too. He's got a very particular haircut in this movie.

It's a mullet. Yes. I don't know how else to describe it. The most particular haircut. He has an old-timey mullet, right? Yes. Yeah, because Michael Gambon, if I'm not mistaken,

is Irish, and he's got this sort of twang to his accent. Yeah, it's very hard to do. Yeah. This was the year that Michael Gambon, he had The Insider a few weeks after this

with a southern accent. Right. And it was the first time I really noticed Michael Gambon within that four-week period where I was seeing two magnificent performances with two very different accents. So you didn't see toys, is what you're telling me, in theaters.

Because he's the villain. He's very good in toys. Very strange performance where he shoots himself in the foot trying to shoot a fly that has landed on his foot. And then he shoots himself in the foot by taking on toys. True. Right. That one probably knocked him back a few years. You're right.

This is the emergence of Michael Gambon. This is when he becomes a reliable American character actor. Right. Right. And a guy already a British theater legend or whatever. And respected film actor. But now he becomes like

you got an extra million lying around. Get Gambon do a couple scenes. He'll do less. He'll do it for less. I'm saying for the bigger films. Sure. Probably.

Do you think he like pulled down about a mil for later Potters? I would at least. Right. At that point. All right. He becomes the second most important

of six yeah but you know in five which is the great sin of the fifth Harry Potter book Dumbledore's barely in it because Dumbledore

spends the whole book not talking to Harry yeah and then at the end he's like I'm sorry I thought that was like a good idea because I was trying to

like not get Voldemort in your head or something and Harry's like you could have mentioned something he's like I was busy reading like not get Voldemort in your head or something. Harry's like, you could have mentioned something. He's like, I was busy reading book four. I never finished Goblet. There's a lot of you could have with old Dumbledore. Right, he always just marches

in at the end. He's like, look, this is my plan this time and you know, so so. 50-50. Cedric's dead, but Voldemort's back. Zero to 100 here. Sometimes. You're gay? I don't know. Selectively.? Zero to 100 here. Sometimes. You're gay? I don't know. Selectively. I'm melancholy.

Yeah. He's a melancholy man, Dumbledore. I think he probably was able to pull down like a million because you deal, you know, he's replacing Richard Harris.

I think people were upset at the time, you know, upset that the Headless Horseman had claimed Richard Harris but also upset. Are you saying that when we all die the the headless horseman comes

for us? Well, yeah, that's what happened to my grandma, Rozzy, right? I thought she was... Alright, whatever. My parents recently told me the truth, and they said, now I understand that if a person you love goes on vacation for a long time, you never see their body, that they are not, in fact, still alive, but that the headless horseman came

for them. A Hessian mercenary for love of podcasting. And took many of her participants they were participants in a great conspiracy that reaches back into the far reaches of America. Right, my grandma Rozzy now lives in a tree. Right, a weird, cool tree. Because of a real estate fight years ago. Okay. There's a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David.

Sure. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes heads

roll. Very good. Well played. This is a mini-series on the films of Tim Burton. I won. You get a gloat every time. I didn't resist. I would disagree.

Oh, wow. Yeah, you definitely didn't resist this miniseries. It took us three and a half years to get to. We had other things to do. Yeah, things that I prioritized lower than this. It, of course, is called Podword Scissor Cast. Sure. I'm just, this one's in your hands, the whole Burton caboodle.

I don't even, I'm happy we're doing it. Yeah, David's Skyping in. We're recording this one a while in advance. We're technically in the middle of our Nancys. Sure, we're doing some Nancys. We're doing them all. We have a very special guest today, and we wanted to get him in the studio while he was around.

Right. So me saying Podward Scissorcast right now is me throwing down the gauntlet. Sure. That's the title. This is the first time. We didn't even confirm it between the two of us. Eh. It sounded good.

Yeah, this is what this whole miniseries is going to be. You go, and if you want to do that, that's fine. Right. Sure. Go for it. Yeah. No, I think it's the obvious one. I looked at the titles

and uh podcast attacks just this too right you know it's a lot of it's not specific enough to Tim Burton you know

Podlis and Wondercast Miss Pot of Greens cast for Peculiar Podcast he's also done you know like he's done things like Charlie and the Talk Factory Alice in Wonderland

Miss Peregrine where it's like Sweeney Todd these are other properties right this is my argument you know it's not really a Burton thing his titles have so many syllables, though.

It feels like they would be, you know, there's so many opportunities, but then they just don't feel right. They don't, you know, podcasts, big adventure, peewees, but you know. That sounds like an IMDb trivia fact for Tim Burton is his film titles have many syllables. People always add those kinds of things. Yep. Well, our guest today, a very exciting guest,

is a filmmaker. He has directed films such as A Ghost Story, Ain't the Mighty Saints, Pete's Dragon, and The Old Man and the Gun, which will probably be

Which is old news at this point. More like the old news and the gun. Seriously. David Lowery is here. It's a joy to be here. Thank you so much for being here. Ridiculous that you're here.

Very dumb choice on your part. Or that you like this silly thing we do. Like three months ago when I was building the frontal mandibles of the Lego Millennium Falcon and listening to the entirety of the Phantom podcast. You're the rare fan that we get these days who still is hooked with the Star Wars, the initial gambit. You know, Often people jump on later. No, that was it. It was

what I listened to while building my midlife crisis Lego set. Okay, so I got a couple questions. First of all, David, it does seem to be these days people get into the new episodes and then once they're deep in they're like, fuck, I'll go back to the Star Wars stuff.

The Millennium Falcon you were building, was this the ultimate collector? Yes. I can talk shop a little bit. Is that the one you wanted to buy me? No, because this was a thing. David had said he kind of wanted the Lego Millennium Falcon from Solo. That set's no good. Right.

I wasn't specifically demanding. I just saw it on sale. And I was like, oh, look at this. You saw it on sale. Like they're just like, we got to get these things out of the shelves. No one wants them. You saw them announce it. Sure. You quoted the tweet with the announcement and said, I want it.

Sure. Sure. So then I said, because I'm trying to poison David. You just want me to own toys. It's like some weird poetic triumph for you if I do. Okay. I knew that set was being released right around his birthday, so I was like, I will buy that for you.

And then Joanna, David's girlfriend. Sitting next to me, I believe, at the time during all of this. Right. Sees the ping on the phone and was like, absolutely not. Right. No way. It was one of those things, I think, where my phone was lighting up so much that she was like like what's happening right now and I was like Griffin's like doing this joke

where he's going to buy me this Lego Millennium Falcon not a joke it was a very expensive show of friendship it was like 200 bucks and I was like I mean he's not going to do it and she's like yeah I don't want him to I sent over a list of stipulations that I would gladly buy for him and have it shipped to his home

as long as it was fully constructed. Sure. Which would be the part point. Not thrown out by Joanna at any point in time. She wouldn't throw it out. And was placed in a position of display within the home for one calendar year. Now, I said it could be any place. Exactly.

You can pick the place. And I immediately said to her, well, I could go. And I mentioned a place in my apartment that is not prominent. A blind spot. Yeah, it wouldn't be a big thing. It wouldn't really take it. And she was just like, no, we're not doing it. No, absolutely not.

And then it became an enjoyable discussion between the two of us. My wife is adamant that I do not take my Legos out of the office. They stay there. They have to stay there. So my friend Derek Simon, who writes for Supergirl, his wife, it's the office. They stay there. They have to stay there. So like my friend Derek Simon who writes for Supergirl his wife is it's the same deal. Same dynamic.

Right. He has to get stuff shipped to his office. See I don't buy toys. I just buy Blu-rays. That's my vice. And so I have a lot of Blu-rays.

Yes. And those are tolerated obviously but like you know that's my only vice. But can we can we say my workaround for the birthday present because also

a soul hadn't come out yet and I was like I don't want to see the movie not like that Millennium Falcon as much commit that money and then Joanna might throw it out anyway well I figured the set though isn't it just the Millennium Falcon plus that extra bit and if you don't want to do the extra bit you don't have to the colors are different interesting thing when you get the ultimate masters

collection edition or whatever it's called is that they go the book which is like 600 pages. And this was literally like the biggest set they had ever produced, right? It has a history of the Millennium Falcon Lego sets, which is fascinating. They've been, like every year they have a new one. Yeah. And this is this year's model. It's also crazy to look at how rudimentary the first couple were

because they kind of just look like a disc with two pieces on them. Exactly. Really? Yeah, yeah. You go back and look at the early star wars lego sets and you're like oh that was like six blocks and it kind of looked like a tie fighter right um the last thing i'm gonna say on the subject is my workaround which i was very proud of and i can talk about now because it finally uh arrived in your mailbox it did it took forever, so, goes Joanna, so goes the house. Right.

I bought for each of you an action figure of your favorite character in the history of movies. Sure. I mean, one of... Number one favorite character in the history of movies. One of my favorite characters. So I got Joanna, Tom Hiddleston, Loki. You asked who Joanna's favorite Marvel character was. I knew she was a Marvel zombie. Yes, and I asked her and she said, loki you asked who joanna's favorite marvel character i knew she's a marvel zombie yes and

and i asked her and she said that's loki or captain america and i was like i think you're more of a captain america but your favorite character is loki yeah and she was like i think you're right so i got her loki and then we have months later because it was back order right so this is the thing the loki arrives first that the penance offering comes but without the actual thing that it's designed to be sort of salve for. Right, right. But which gave, I mean, was not planned, but gave some months of...

This original money fucking looks really bad. Right, that's what I'm saying. It looks like a Battlestar Galactica shit. Yeah, it doesn't look like anything. No, it looks like the early CGI renderings from like Last Starfighter. Exactly. Where they couldn't really afford

to have too many angles on the ship. Yeah. Right. And then I bought you your favorite movie character of all time. I do love him. You know I love him.

Admiral Piet. Admiral Piet. Hermes Piet. Empire Strikes Back. The man caught in the bureaucracy of the Empire. And I'm very happy that if you Google his name

The first result is David Simpson action figure. Entry one is the Wikipedia. Entry two is the Wikipedia. And then entry three is the article I wrote about him. I'm number three. That's fantastic. My favorite Star Wars character.

I love him so much. So this has been episode one of Toy Boys. Tune in next week. So are you a Toy Boy or is it just Star Wars Lego? I used to be. And, you know, I think the last action figure I bought was probably this ties into the series is the Edward Scissorhands figure from McFarlane toys yeah and it was right around that time that I had a bunch of McFarlane toys and this was a gentleman's figure David I mean really high class

stuff yeah and after that I stopped I ceased to purchase action figures and every now and then I'll see something that I want and I think maybe I'll get that but then I stopped. I ceased to purchase action figures. And every now and then, I'll see something that I want, and I think maybe I'll get that, but then I don't. I've stopped acquiring quite so many material possessions, but I do still buy certain Blu-rays and now Lego kits. Yeah. I will say I've seen a growing resurgence, especially among filmmakers, getting into Lego. I think there's something very therapeutic about, like…

That's definitely what it's become for me because now I keep buying them. I've followed up Lineum Thocken with Boba Fett's ship. Right, it's like the process of doing it I think is very satisfying for people in between creative jobs that drive them crazy to be like, I'm just going to sit here and meticulously build a thing.

I know how it has to end up looking. And there's like a vague hint of nostalgia tied into that that is satisfying. Yes, so this has been episode two of Toy Boys. And there's like a vague hint of nostalgia tied into that that is satisfying. Yes. So this has been episode two of Toy Boys. So you're a prequel fan or? I enjoy the lore. Yeah, exactly.

And I, without, we could, we want to break down the prequels again. We could start right now. Like the first 10 minutes of Phantom Menace featuring Silas Carson, who I felt you gave short thrift to in your performance review. I think, yes, he was not good as the Neimoidian, but as Kia D'Amundi, he's great. That is a great performance. And also, retroactively, his performance has gotten much better

now that I've seen him in Phantom Thread, giving an excellent performance. That one scene. That one scene he's so good in. And I was like, now I like him even more. He's talking about business interests. Yes, exactly. He's like, why would I need her money?

I have my own. Right. And he's weirdly wearing the Coyote Mundi forehead. Well, yeah. She's getting married to Coyote Mundi within Phantom Thread. That's canon. Yes. No, it is odd.

I do find that... I have to design a Jedi gown. I'm trying to imagine. Mark Bridges just throwing up his hands in despair trying to marry these two worlds. Queen Amidala is getting married again. That's why he got that jet ski at the Oscars because he really just went to bat for that.

How long do you think we have to wait until like a filmmaker in their like publicity tour says that the film is inspired by Phantom Menace? That we get to a point where it's like, you know,

I was trying to kind of Not long. Right? Not long at all. I think it's going to happen soon enough. Whether or not they're like fans, just the notion of like,

I think that It's ingrained in a certain like generational DNA at this point. Because all this like the dumb like the levels to which we know all of this shit for this point. Because all this, like, the dumb, like, the levels to which we know all of this shit,

for movies we don't ostensibly like, you know? Right. It's sort of like American history now at this point, where it's just like this thing where everyone has the working base of, like, the elements, even if you don't really care. And we might be the last generation that kind of, like, doesn't like them. Right. Because kids love them.

Yeah. Kids do love them. And I guess, right, at a certain point, if you grew up with it, there would be no lingering resentment. I also think all the new Disney Lucas stuff has sort of worked to retroactively

make those films a little more important between Rebels and Clone Wars. Yeah. I feel like if you were to read the storybooks of the prequels and then watch the series, you'd have like this glowing appreciation for that lore. Yes.

Yeah. Yes. There's lore. The lore is good. The lore is good. I mean, I've always said those movies make pretty good Wikipedia entries. Yeah, right. Some of those Wikipedia entries are hot stuff.

Yeah. No, but I do look back at some of the performance review things and I'm like, that person got a pass, that person got a fail. And I think there's an element of, like, when we were watching them every fucking week, like, sometimes the movie would just hit you a different way. Yeah. You know? I can see that. You get caught up on a thing. And then the other thing was that we were, you know, sans context, no bits, but we were pretending they existed in a vacuum.

And that definitely changed, like changed the way I judged things. Sure. If we were following that thought experiment. The idea was let's not bring the anger one might have as a fan of the originals. Right. Or whatever. But this movie that we're talking about today comes out the same year and is part of Ray Park's humongous year, his Hollywood takeover. That's true.

Where he cannot stop swinging things in big studio blockbusters. And he brings his buddy Ian McDiarmid along for the ride. Yes. That's right. Yes. That's right. And I believe this was shot at Sheppard and,

so maybe, you know, it was shot in the same universe. It was shot immediately. Like the sets of Naboo Palace were coming down and, you know, the hollow was coming out. And they were just like, Ian, just hang out.

We're going to give you a powdered wig thing. They literally pushed back production so they could wait for Star Wars to vacate the studios and take over. And McDermott was like, I rolled into one after the other and he in an interview said it was kind of great to be back in a very physical, visceral world after doing Phantom Menace

where it makes your life so much easier if there's things to react to. And you're like, God, what a ominous 1999 quote. Not knowing that the entire industry is going to go the way of Phantom Menace. And Phantom Menace is the only one that even has 20% physical

sets. I know. They had sets, right? A lot of them. But he, even at the time, was like frustrated from doing Phantom Menace and was like, it was great to be on a set

where I could be scared of the thing that a person had built. And just like with all of his friends. Like all of these titans of like the British theater scene were all just hanging out

in that one room together. Murderers were like Griffiths, Goff. Well, this is my favorite thing about this movie is that, right, rather than preying on co-eds or pre-teens or what, you know, like the Headless Horseman is going after British character acts.

Right. Like they're all on his list. And convicted sex offender Jeffrey Jones. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're going to talk about Jeffrey Jones in prior episodes, I assume.

Yeah. We'll have a six-part miniseries within the miniseries. Do you think he will be in Deadwood, the movie? I think he cannot. That's what I assume. No, he's in it. He is? The whole issue occurred prior to Deadwood.

And so he was cast in the movie. It was mid-Deadwood, because I remember his mugshot has him with Deadwood facial hair, which was really, really unfortunate for everyone. Well, it was 2002 is when he was arrested, so it's post-Sleepy Hollow. Right.

Yes, he was arrested for soliciting a 14-year-old boy to pose for a nude photograph. He pleaded no contest. He was, the charges dropped, so he wasn't actually convicted. We'll give it my official ruling of sex offender. No good, very bad, wasn't actually convicted. And he, he's a registered sex offender. No good, very bad. Don't do it.

Agreed. Yes. But, you know, yeah. I mean, he hasn't worked much since then. Who's your caddy? Was that his last film? Who's your caddy? How do you know that?

What do you mean, how do I know that? What other currency do I have in this society? Tell me who the lead in Who's Your Caddy was. Wasn't Fizz on Love, was it? No. He's in it, though. He plays a character

called Big Large. Who's the lead in Who's Your Caddy? Ooh, I like that character. Okay, wait, wait. Big and Large, right. Yeah, I think he might have been the Dangerfield type,

and I think Jeffrey Jones was sort of the Ted Knight. Who's Your Caddy the lead? Was he a comedic actor, or was he sort of more of a straight, was he kind of the Michael O'Keefe of the picture?

He's a musician. He's a musician? Yeah sort of more of a straight? Was he kind of the Michael O'Keefe of the picture? He's a musician. He's a musician? Yeah. A singer or a rapper? A rapper. He's a rapper. Who has acted a little, but not someone I think of as like a. It's not Bow Wow, is it?

No, but I think. No, Bow Wow. No, not Bow Wow. Is he Lil? No, he's Big. Does he have Big in the name? Yeah. Big. This is taking too long. He's from a southern he have big in the name? Yeah. Big.

This is taking too long. He's from a southern... Oh, Big Boy. Big Boy. Big Boy was the lead of Who's Your Caddy? Yep. This summer, it's The Street vs. The Elite. I've never heard of this movie.

I don't know what this is. This was in the run of like... Soul Plane is to Airplane as Who's your caddy is to caddy chat where it's like an unofficial remake i see i see it right and that does seem like because it's a country club it's a golf movie right right all right well i just remember jeffrey jones being all over the trailers and being like we're still doing this anyway let's get back on track i can't remember what the track was. Sleepy Hollow. It's a damp, dusky track where only a carriage can pass.

A leafy track. A lot of leaves. Lots of painted clouds in the background. So this movie comes out of the fallout of Superman Lives. I was trying to look at the timeline, and Superman Lives was like he always talks about being a year of his life so that must have started prior to mars attacks coming out i think they were kind of concurrent because he was still at warner brothers yeah he had mostly done warner's films until that point and mars attacks certainly was they were developing at the same time i think it was going with post-production and press and all of that with Mars attacks.

And he jumps onto this, I think, about a month or two after Superman collapses. I think he very badly wanted to make a movie. Have you watched the documentary about the death of Superman? Yes. It is fascinating.

I need to watch it. The footage of them just doing the costume test is worth the price of the rental it's just really everyone's excited about it everyone like looks back on it as a missed opportunity and and yet at the same time I'm just like really glad that that movie did not happen and that this movie happened the Sleepy Hollow happened yes I mean I think it's a far more interesting movie to think about Superman lives than it probably would have been to watch and i think he would have been destroyed for it like even if like nerds like us 20 years later appreciated it i think the the general community would have hated that fucking movie and especially coming

off of mars attacks which is a profound disappointment right it would have put him well who knows what would have happened, but we might have not gotten the Sleepy Hollow or the, well, we'll talk about where he goes from Sleepy Hollow. But this definitely feels like a direct response to Sleepy Hollow in the sense that it is. You mean to Superman? No, I'm saying, I'm sorry, Tamar's attacks, Tamar's attacks.

In how straight-laced it is. It does feel like this and Sweeney Todd are the two most straightforward. I mean, he's never made a movie that is totally devoid of humor. No, sure. I know what you're saying. It's like he's like, I want to make a horror movie. I never made a horror movie. I want to make a real horror movie.

But also digging into his aesthetic, which right around this point was developing into the Tim Burton aesthetic. He's always had the goth side of him and then the kitsch side. Those are the two things that define Tim Burton. The goth side usually wins out. So after Mars Attacks, he's like, let's go back to the things that people

like about my films. And as a result, now that's what we think of when we think of the Tim Burton aesthetic. Yes. Is the Sleepy Hollow look. And this movie, this is going to be

a running thing in this miniseries. It's probably going to drive you crazy. Uh-oh. But I do think there are separate, different subcategories

within the Tim Burton aesthetic. Sure, yes. And this one is fascinating because it's kind of isolated in and of itself of being completely devoid of any kitsch,

but also that sort of humor and the sort of... It certainly stylized this film, right? Yes, quite stylized. But I think in this film, he's sort of reverse engineering, like, okay, let me take my Tim Burton drawings and try to reproduce them in reality as much as possible in a more organic way, rather than something like Sweeney Todd

where it's trying to make it look like a cartoon to a certain extent. A little bit. A little more theatrical, you know? Who shot Sweeney Todd? Sweeney Todd might have been Darius Kanji. Yeah, it was a heavy hitter on that one. Yes.

Who he's only worked with once. Like Lubezki on this film. Yes. It might be Dante Spannati. No, it's Darius Volsky. Volsky? Volsky, yeah. This is, I mean,

maybe just his most purely beautiful looking film. Such a gorgeous movie. It really is. And there's something, too, he also said that he wanted to try to make a mostly practical film. I think after Mars Attacks, where it'd been so cgi superman was gonna be so cgi i think you could see that's the way the industry was going it's just you know go

on finish your thought no it's just such a fucking tactile movie yes it's just funny that you guys are talking about this to think about right like rather than blow his career on superman right he goes and makes a sleepy hollow r-rated horror movie that's a huge hit. His weird movie turns out to be the safe play. Yes. And a really bizarre thing to think about now is this was, at the time, the

first and only Johnny Depp movie to make $100 million. They were like, this is the first time he's actually led a fully successful film. Like a home run. I remember distinctly being so excited when Johnny Depp got this part. Because it felt like the underdog succeeding at that point. You're like, you know, all right, they're back together again for the third time. Well, it was like, okay, so they do, like, Johnny Depp's clearly his favorite guy.

They do the passion projects, you know? Sure, but right, they hadn't worked together since Ed Wood, right? Yes. This was the third one at this point. And they were going to have, I think, like, it was like a bake-off between two potential Abraham Lincolns. It was like Daniel Day-Lewis was, like, up for this part. And Liam Neeson was up for this part.

And Brad Pitt was the other person the studio wanted. I mean, that's... But those guys just passed, right? I mean, like, I know the studio, like, demanded, like, meet with the... I assume that those guys were just like, I'm gonna do this i also maybe not would imagine burton tried his hardest to torpedo them yeah right i mean he wanted them to settle on depp which is a weird thing to think about now but there was such a notion at the time of like well if you're making a period film it's got to be neeson or dade lewis and they seemed more bankable at the time

because they had been doing fucking historical epics and shit. Can you tell me Johnny Depp's prior, excluding Platoon, which doesn't really count, his prior highest grossing film before this? Nightmare on Elm Street? No. Not Scissorhands?

No. It is Scissorhands. I take it back. It is Scissorhands. Sorry. Yeah, that's us. What do you think it was? Nebraska.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Which made some money. Right. And Scissorhands. Sorry. Yeah, that's us. What do you think it was? San Juan de Mar, Nebraska. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Which made some money. Right. And Scissorhands was a hit, but it wasn't like a blockbuster. No, it did very well. Right. And the Burton films that had been really big at this time were mostly Keaton movies.

Batman movies. Right. I'd call them Batman movies. And Beetlejuice outgrossed the Depp films. And when Depp was doing action movies, they were like real fucking programmers like Nick of Time. You know? John Badham, Nick of Time, yeah.

Yeah, you know, things that were just kind of like solid doubles. He had The Astronaut's Wife like right before this. Right. Ninth Gate right before this. It was like a lot of like thrillers like that, you know? There's another obvious one. Not really, actually. I mean, Benny and another obvious one. Oh, not really. Actually,

I mean, Benny and June and Don Juan DeMarco. Those are his other and then Dead Man, which it rules, but obviously made no money. And then Fear and Loathing

he had done the year before this. But you can kind of divide it into like clear passion projects for him with directors where he gets to be kind of kookier. He doesn't do a lot

of paycheck movies though. No, but he does have these Now he specializes in paycheck movies. of kind of kookier. He doesn't do a lot of paycheck movies, though. No, but he does have these kind of... Now he specializes in paycheck movies. Of sort of program thrillers. Like Astronauts Rife and stuff like that. Where he's sort of trying to hit... He's like, I need to be the movie star that can get these Tim Burton movies off the ground.

So he's taking these roles, hopefully, but they just never click. Yes. And he's playing them very fucking straight. But his legacy at this time i mean the excitement around him is when he goes into his weird directions and i think this was a victory for everyone that it was like okay he's doing that in a big blockbuster that is successful and he's not playing rote he's not tampering down his thing watching it now i was surprised by how relatively restrained he is.

Because you watch it and imagine what this performance would be like. He doesn't wear a single hat in this movie. No hats. I mean, it's like a parody of fucking Johnny Depp, but the thing I read is that he really wanted to wear prosthetics. He wanted to look like the cartoon character from the Disney film. He wanted to be all like sort of hook nose. A cartoonishly long nose and long fingers

and like big ears and an Adam's apple and shit. He would have looked like the BFG. Right. And they were like, we're not paying you to not look like Johnny Depp. Right.

You fucking moron. You were already a little man that you look like Johnny Depp. Right. Yeah. Right. But that was like, he would be able to get on these lists

because he was so fucking handsome and everyone agreed he was like a compelling screen presence. But when he went weird, it never worked for box office. And then Pirates of the Caribbean was the thing that changed it. But I also think this movie holds a very specific place as the last film where Burton had to fight for Depp

rather than a movie that's getting made because Depp wanted to work with Burton again. Precisely. When was the first Pirates movie? Was that 2001? 2003. Three. Okay. A couple years away still. Yeah, because after this with the Deppster Oh, because he does From Hell, which is a weird

imitation of what he's doing here, but completely played straight. He does Blow. Right. He does Chocolat. Let's not forget Chocolat. He takes out that Spanish guitar. Yeah. Eat some chocolate. Wait, that was the same year as this. That's 2000. Okay. The year after. Before Night Falls,

which he's actually good in. Not a big role. Two small roles. The Man Who Cried, which is bonkers. The Sally Potter movie. Didn't see that. Yeah.

Then Blowing From Hell. And then he takes a year off. And then he, you know, he's got that two, one, two, Once Upon a Time in Mexico and Pirates of the Caribbean in 2003.

Which he's like so wonderful in those movies, both of those movies. Right, and it was just fucking bizarre because it was like Johnny Depp has now become like a colossal megastar doing full Depp weirdness. And it felt like such a victory. It felt like a true

triumph as a Depp fan at that point just to feel like everyone finally gets what I've known for so long. That's the thing that's really hard to sort of like keep in mind now existing in the present day. Right. Is at the time it felt like a fucking revolution. Yeah, completely. It was like movies are going to get weirder now.

Like he beat the system. He snuck in from the inside. He won this battle. He got an Oscar nomination. Everything about it was fucking insane yeah and you hear like the list of all the people they wanted to play that part you know like i think mcconaughey was their first choice i believe you're right yes because they were so hot yes a pod for castness yeah but um it was like this time that was the thing i equated to and it didn't

have the same level of cultural impact. But I remember being so fucking excited. David's about to scoff really hard when Taylor Hicks won American Idol. I got to say, I did not imagine you were about to say that. I know. Wow. Because he was like the least fucking cool dad singer in the world. Right.

He sucked. He was like spazzy. He had gray hair. I can't even weigh in on taylor hicks i was not watching a pretty good like vocal like soul singer but it was like there's no way the soul patrol was that his fan base yeah the thing was he was so dorky and there was no way for him to fit into the pop culture landscape right where i was like he might have broken this show because this show can't make him a kelly clarkson and what happened was he just

didn't have any career. But I remember being excited that he had snuck into the system. And I was like, what are they going to have him do? Do an album of standards now? And instead people wrote bad fucking pop ballads for him. And he had his fucking contract dropped. But the

Depp thing actually seemed to be working for a little while. Taylor Hicks was like a 10%er. I'm trying to find the best expression of what he was. But he was like, some people loved him. Everyone else just had no opinion and was not interested. But he fucking won, which was insane. Yeah, but that was because he had a devoted fan base. Soul Patrol, which I consider myself a member.

I'm sorry, not a member. An officer. Do you watch American? I never watched American. I am zoned out. That was the one season I watched because I would always find the weird guy in the first couple episodes and be like,

this guy's great. And then he would get eliminated week two and I'd be done. And the Taylor Hicks thing was like, how the fuck is he winning from like 12 year olds? I really can't. I didn't even live in the country

when he won. I vaguely remember his... I lived in England. I lived in England. I lived in England. Where Sleepy Hollow was shot. Where Sleepy Hollow was shot. Ben, get the cards out. Yellow card.

It's not a yellow card. It is a yellow card. It is. Look at the card. It's yellow. Anyway, go on. Go on what? I don't know what I'm talking about,

Taylor Hicks. Yes. Yeah, I understand that. And this was sort of the first step to that. Yes. It's kind of the bridge to him being able to pull off Pirates. It's like he can work in a massive film.

He can go weird. It can still connect with audiences. That was sort of the thing he talked about the most with his performance was like, I wanted to play this part as a 13-year-old girl. And he talked about that a lot. His thing at the time was always like, I would pick a couple figures in pop culture and combine them for the performance.

And he said his big influence for this one was Angela Lansbury. Which totally fit. Yeah, it works. And at the time, for the people who were rooting for Depp like you and I, at a time where it was still respectable to root for Depp, it was like, oh, fucking cool.

Like, he got this through. And it felt like he was kind of deconstructing the usually bland leading man in this type of movie. Well, not just that, right? He's deconstructing, like, the vain detective, you know, the tough guy detective. The CSI, you know, 1894 or whenever this movie takes place. He's the one, or he's figuring out what a jerk Sherlock Holmes is before

the premise Sherlock Holmes is a jerk becomes the basis of hit TV shows. That's the crazy thing is watching it now, this performance is so much, it feels so much less aversive than I remember because now this is kind of the way that leading men act in blockbusters where they're kind of winky.

Yeah, yeah. And they're like, I shouldn't be here. Right, right. You know, and they're cutting everything with humor. I mean, this is like the Marvel archetype. Not the cowardice, but this relationship between the sort of seriousness of the people around him. The self-deprecating quality of the performance.

Not of the character, but of the performance. Right, right. Is something that stands to this day. Marvel usually does that more in the Bill Murray way where it's like, I'm going to comment on how straight-laced everyone else around me is. And he's doing it by being less brave and, you know, sort of conventional

than everyone else around him. But it's the same sort of like reactive, you know, subversive sort of thing. Right. Right. Right. And now it just feels like, oh, that's like weird that Depp was ever this not mannered. Yeah, that's,

it's also, he's not a weird gravel voice kind of demon man, which he's sort of become. Like anytime he pops up now. How old was he when he made this? That's a good question. So, he was born in 63.

Christina Ricci is fucking 19 in this movie. Is she? Which is nuts and creepy. Yeah, he's like 3530s christina ricci is fucking 19 in this movie is she which is nuts and creepy yeah he's like 35 okay yeah so yeah he's really he has been around it's not like because yeah he's 55 now but he's the kind of movie star that existed when there was still a middle class of studio films where it was like this was an expensive movie. This is what broke that. The budget is listed as anywhere between $70 and $100 million, which is a lot, especially in 1999. I'm just saying this is what broke that because up until that point, he had succeeded

making $20 to $40 million movies at a studio level. He was big enough to get those green lit. He was handsome enough that people always were like, well, yeah, Depp, obviously. Pitt was kind of in the same zone where Pitt wasn't consistently successful, in those parts. Peter turned investment. He was handsome enough that people always were like, well, yeah, Depp, obviously, you know? And Pitt was kind of in the same zone where Pitt wasn't consistently successful, but he was

handsome enough. Right, you're talking about the 90s hotties. The 90s hotties. That's who they were, right? The classic hunks. Yeah. Right, the cheekbone boys. Was he ever the sexiest man alive? He must have been. I think he probably was after Pirates, which is weird. No, I mean... I think he never was. Really? I worked at People Magazine one year. I think he probably was after Pirates, which is weird. No, I mean.

I think he never was. Really? I worked at People Magazine one year when I think he was still being floated. And, you know, like, I think he would never agree. You know, they have to agree to do it. Oh, to do the photo shoot. And I think they could never entice him. That was the other thing about him at the time, which, like, I feel like you and I probably just ate up with like a fucking

ladle. No, he did do it. I take it back. Thank you. What year? 03? So Pirates. Pirates.

He, at the time, played the, oh God, I hate being a movie star thing. Right. In a way that made him seem cool. I think now seems very effective.

But like him fucking inside the act. Now it's effective or affected? Affected. Okay, yeah. In a way that inside the act. You mean effective? Effective. In a way that feels kind of disingenuous. Right, right. It feels very ineffective now.

But like him on inside the actor's studio, like wearing his sunglasses, hand-rolling cigarettes, being like, I don't even know. I mean, what makes me different than a potter? He lived on his yacht. He was like, he's in France. He's not part of the machine.

Right. Tattoo says wino forever. I mean, all that shit, you know? Which at he's in France he's not part of the machine right tattoo says wino forever I mean that all that shit you know which at the time was so romantic because he seemed like a rebel against the studio system and then he becomes the guy who epitomizes like Hollywood excess and bloat he also I remember just thinking like surely Johnny Depp's not a millionaire like his movies don't make me you don't think about him in terms of paychecks at that point at all this man will never be able to afford an entire French village. Yes.

That is staffed year round, whether or not he's living there. I know he's really like, it's the Michael Jackson territory. Like he's in that weird sort of like, yeah, well, his, his idol. Right. Right. But Brandon was the guy who was like, make the movies by an island. Like apparently whispered to him, like, you could own a sawmill. While cameras were rolling on Dom Honda

Parkway. It's got traffic lights. Adopt a highway. It's good. It's good civics. It's good for the environment. It is crazy. You think he ever went to that weird

like island where like Marlon Brando lived and wore like a Dr. Evil outfit or whatever. Do I think Depp ever went there? Yeah. A hundred percent. Eight months out of the year. Yeah.

Until he had his own weird island where he now dresses up like Marlon Brando. Do you think you ever had, like, say you're like a charter plane guy and one day you get the call and it's like, you gotta, you gotta go to Brando's creepy island. And like, there's all these rules. Like, you know, once you land, put on a blindfold. You have to dress up the plane like a car. You have to keep on saying, we just pulled in, where can I park? He's actually afraid of airplanes, so you can't mention them.

Right, right. Has to either be a dragon or a car. It's so weird. And now there's like a resort there. Did you guys know this? Brando's Island? Because when he died he left no instructions on what to do with the island he owned yeah so it was like given to

like this hotel chain that operates like polynesian resorts now you can go to the brando i wish it was just like a holiday inn it's gotta be motel 6 i going to make him out for a kid. Put a red roof on it. Okay. Sleepy Hollow. Complimentary breakfast. Kevin Yeager. Yes.

We got to talk about Kevin Yeager. This is like the best bit of origin story. I love it. It's so bizarre. Fucking awesome. The guy who invented the two wrinkliest horror villains, Freddy Krueger and the Crypt Keep awesome. The guy who invented the two wrinkliest horror villains,

Freddy Krueger and the Crypt Keeper. The Crypt Keeper is him being like, what about even really weird? The King of Crevices, they called him.

That probably was an actual line he referred to himself. I'm the King of Crevices. I'm the King of Crevices. In Hollywood, I'm something of a King of Crevices.

I know we've taken a lot of sidetracks here, but can I list my one piece of trivia about my own films that I'm most king of crevices. In Hollywood, I'm something of a king of crevices. I know we've taken a lot of sidetracks here, but can I list my one piece of trivia about my own films that I'm most excited about? Please, please. Take us on sidetracks. Yes. The voice of Elliot in Pete's Dragon is the Crypt Keeper.

Really? Oh, what's his name? John Kassir. Yes. And I cast him because I love the Crypt Keeper. That fucking rules. Also, he's really good at doing animal voices. Yeah.

You know, he did the raccoon in Pocahontas. Yeah. Among others. What's he like up to these days? Because the Crypt Keeper is unreal. He does a lot of cartoons and animation and video games and anything that requires voice acting. He's like, because we needed a voice actor. And he was like one of the top three that, you know, an agency sent us.

And you know, now that you've said that, it does make sense that there's that scene where Elliot inexplicably addresses the citizens of the town as boils and ghouls. We had to cut a lot of puns out. Do you remember when the Crypt Keeper had like a Saturday morning game show that was like Legends of the Hidden Temple and it was kids had to like survive obstacle course mazes in a mansion. No. So there were kids in like color-coded t-shirts who were like teams

and the Crypt Keeper would just talk to them and be like, for your next challenge, you must retrieve six rings. But there was that brief period where they tried to turn the Crypt Keeper into a Saturday morning cartoon. Correct. And they made an action figure of the Saturday morning cartoon version. Where they got rid of a lot of the crevices. Yes, they did.

A lot rounder. Very shiny Crypt Keeper. Yes. And I had that action figure because I was obsessed with Tales from the Crypt. And then there was also the Tales from the Crypt Christmas record. Yes. Which was delightful. This was the tail end of that period.

Like this was the logical end point is like now. Game show. The Crypt Keeper is Chuck Woolery. And he tells kids how to win like a fucking Toshiba boombox. Why did they go? I guess you loved him so there's the evidence but like I was freaked out by the Crypto Super. I was terrified. He scared me. My parents had to like whenever it came on

the TV go like he's supposed to be funny. He's making jokes. Yeah. Like that's no joke I know. You know and my friend I had a friend who had a poster for demon night i think oh yeah good poster it's a good it's a cool poster and uh that that freaked me out but i would like also look at it all the time and i didn't like that was the thing about tales from the crypt for me is like

an eight or nine year old was it was the thing yeah it was the thing that great post scared me cool i wanted to look at it all the time. It had really scary things. It had violence and had lots of nudity. It was all things I was about to be far more interested in, but at that age, I really wanted to dig in a little further. It was also like the Uncanny Valley aspect of it

being an animatronic rather than a guy in makeup made it very other worldly. Actually scarier for that age. If you got freaked out by the picture of Freddy Krueger in a video store box, your parents would be like, it's a guy in makeup. You'd see the Crypt Keeper and you'd be like, that's not a human being. I don't understand what's going

on here. This be witchcraft. It was. Kevin Jaeger's great witchcraft. Special effects designer, makeup designer. Kevin Jaeger teams up with Andrew Kevin Walker, who at this point, Seven is just a speck that's gotten buzz. Yeah, because I think this is 93.

So Andrew Kevin Walker has written Nothing. Yes. He's going to write Brain Scan with Edward Furlong, Frank Langella. I saw that at a Dismember the Alamo marathon a year or two ago. Seems like the spot to see it. Is it good good I've never seen it

it was interesting okay Long and Lang it was enjoyable it was very enjoyable Long and Lang Furlong Langela

exactly Long and Lang yes I thought you were talking about Shelley Long and Stephen Lang well that's my

film I'm pitching tomorrow don't take it from me okay and then Hideaway with Goldblum right

yeah which I've also never seen. That's Seven and Event Horizon and the game. He was like, God, he really was cooking in the 90s. He was really cooking. And then he makes the Wolfman. Oh, he's just a script doctor on Event Horizon and the game.

I take it back. He's a famous script doctor, I feel like. Yes, right. At this point, he was like a spec script guy and like a punch up script doctor guy. I think he's done work on like most of Fincher's movies in the 90s. Yes. I know he definitely did. Fight Club he definitely worked on.

And I think Panic Room he worked on. Maybe. He's like he has like a cameo in there. Seven was just so clearly like a calling card script. Yeah.

Kevin Yeager wants to make the jump to directing. Sure. He got in like he struck while the iron was hot. He was like this is the guy to find my directorial debut with.

Yeah, I mean, it was a good introduction. But then it wasn't his directorial debut. No, this is the thing. I guess they work up a treatment where they have the idea of Ikebukuro as detective. Right, it's a murder mystery now. It's not just him being pursued.

But he wants it, I guess, to be a schlocky horror movie with like really spectacular that was his thing it's like it's a big special effects showcase in terms of practical makeup effects and he was like there's going to be a beheading every 10 minutes like it's going to be a non-stop thrill ride that was his big pitch a beheading every 10 minutes right and uh i guess it just never goes anywhere well they caught into it they sold it to Scott Rudin because Rudin had been a fan of Andrew Kevin Walker from Seven

Rudin set up at Paramount he's like I love this he's gonna direct it but instead he directs Hellraiser 4 well was it one of those things where they're like why don't you take this other movie first get your sea legs and then I think they go like we can't trust you

with this movie. We need a bigger budget. We need a more experienced person. You're too niche. Well, and also, he Alan Smithies himself on Hellraiser 4.

I think he got in a big fight over whatever, the direction of Hellraiser 4, which I have not seen. Bloodline. That is Bloodline. It's a space one, right?

Yes. But then the notion becomes like, well, rather than letting this guy who's like a horror dude make a $15 million movie, maybe we get a more prestigious director to make like a $60 or $70 million movie. But let's keep Kevin on board to do all the special effects, which he like, you know, what an egoless thing for him to do.

Yeah, it's kind of beautiful. It's true. That's a good point. It's sort of commendable in a way that he didn't just back off. Also, yeah, right. He gets a good credit. Francis Ford Coppola has a producing credit on this. Which Tim Burton said he didn't know until they locked picture. When the credits had been placed in.

I'm curious at what point, because like when I first saw that, I thought, oh, there's an interesting lineage between this and Bram Stoker's Dracula. Sound stages, it feels very... But it has nothing to do with that, it turns out. No, somehow American Zoetrip got involved at some point, and i think like maybe they had the rights to the story at some point in the 80s and the credit because of that association but apparently had no participation whatsoever zoetrope was involved at some point in the development but not even specifically this

burton iteration weird yeah they had the rights toabod Crane as a character or something like that. One of those. And it's also kind of weird that this is the only Rudin Burton movie because Rudin is known for like collecting directors. Yeah.

You're my guy now and I'm going to get you whatever you want. I'm going to support all your movies. I'm going to keep you in here. And it does seem like the kind of guy it makes sense in the 90s

that they would team up. Rudin did the Addams Family movies too, didn't he? Am I wrong about that? They rule. I mean, arguably the greatest

movies of all time. Yeah, they fuck. They do. They fuck each other. No, they... Relax. I, the other day, was looking at my DVD shelf

and I swear to God, the discs for Addams Family and Addams Family Values had rolled out of the cases and were fucking each other. Are you happy? He produced them.

I did. Thank you. The DVDs were 69ing each other. Are you happy he produced them? I did. Thank you. The DVDs were 69ing each other. So. I actually don't love the first Sam's Family. I like the first Sam's Family. The first movie.

The second one is where they take the concept and really run with it. Yes, the second one is the one where I feel like it's really unhinged and wonderful. I rewatched the first one recently and just had the best time.

It's still really... It is really... It looks incredible. Like, it's so... The design of it is so fantastic. And Christopher Lloyd is phenomenal in it. It's sort of his showcase. I do like it.

I just feel like, you know. It looks shittier in comparison to Values, which is 10 out of 10 masterpiece, first ballot Hall of Famer. Values is just so funny. Whereas the first one looks great, is well-performed, has the right idea,

but it's just not quite as hilarious, right? Yes, Values has the funniest thing that any movie's ever had, which is Baby with a Mustache. Baby with a Mustache. Doesn't get better than that. Getting shot up to an airplane and going like, eh. Yeah. So, you know, whoever thought of anything better than that?

No one. Literally, it has not happened since. We've been waiting. Right. We draw a line in Hollywood. Baby with a mustache. Didn't Mordecai have a mustache? Like a baby with a mustache?

It feels like that's the one movie that would have had. Is that the joke? Is he born with a mustache? I believe you don't see baby Mordecai. I tried to watch Mordecai. I've tried to watch it too. I tried so hard. It's literally like the saltine challenge.

It's this thing. I swear to God. I sat down with a group of people with the full intention of watching mordecai and we were like our our systems will not allow us to process this anymore so we started skipping around and even that was hurting us it's not the worst one i've ever seen it's literally just your body starts like it's just it's quite dull like that's the real problem it's like dull and garish at the same time, which is a really bad combination.

Like, it's about an art dealer. Like, it's not fun. Yes. Like, the plot isn't that fun. No. No. No, Paul Bettany plays Jacques Strap. That's correct.

Yes. He's a Frenchman named Jacques Strap. Let's go back to Babies with Mustaches here. Like, I'm already getting bored. Babies with Mustaches. Do you know that the running bit in Mordecai, the one thing that's funny, though, is that Gwyneth Paltrow, his wife, has been away. She comes home.

She doesn't know that he's grown the mustache. And the whole movie, every time he tries to kiss her, she drives. I didn't know that. That is kind of funny. It's the one funny bit in the movie. Okay. Yeah. I mean, Gwyneth Paltrow is very funny.

And, like, it's good when she gets to be funny. I mean, she's, you know's not quite baby with a mustache, but she's close. Yeah, she's funny. She's probably my favorite stand-up. Sleepy Hollow. Uh-huh. Burton comes aboard, as you say,

I think because of Superman Returns, he's just itching to do something. Right. He'd been dealing with John Peters for a year. Yeah. Didn't like that. This isn't going to be micromanaged in the same way. I also feel like he probably was like with Superman, just not really like he was stretching to find a way to make it his thing.

Yeah. Why was he going to do that? Because at that point in time, he was the superhero. No, I know. That's like a weird thing to think. You'd think he'd think like,

I already did that. Sometimes like, I think a good comparison is like Paul Verhoeven, where they will give him a script for, you know, Hollow Man. And he's like, oh,

I can do something with this. I can use this to try these other things. Exactly and whereas Burton just thinks oh maybe like maybe I could like with Planet of the Apes I think Planet of the Apes is like a good corollary to what Superman might have been where he's like I can probably figure out a way to make this a Tim Burton movie

because his what a Tim Burton movie I think for him is just so intrinsic to what he's doing that he can't really, he's not as flexible. No. And so you feel the strain when they occur, and it does occur, especially in the more recent films. is that he was going to go really hard on the sci-fi aspects of it. That he essentially wanted to make a 60s B-movie, alien movie with Superman in it. Which most people don't think about the alien aspect of Superman that much outside of whatever fucking prologue you have.

But I feel like at this time in the culture and for the next, for really for the next 10 years, there's still that idea that like, oh, Tim Burton's going to put a spin on this. Like, that'll be crazy. Alice in the Wonderland I feel like is what kills that debt. But also it's his biggest hit. I know, but when that's

announced, people are like, oh, it'll be so twisted. This is going to be wild. Even that first poster with Depp all made up, people are like, this looks... And then it worked and everyone hated it. I feel like he's been fighting such an uphill battle since then in terms of winning people back especially when it's ever announced that it's a tim burton take on blank exactly right but this was so this era

is when right yeah tim burton take let me at it and sleepy hollow is so in the fucking pocket where you just go like okay he's not gonna have to bend to make this his precisely this is just him executing this better than probably anyone else could him digging into the things he's not going to have to bend to make this his thing. Precisely. This is just him executing this better than probably anyone else could have this time. It's him digging into the things he's always talked about loving the most. Is it arguably the best match of material to Burton? Probably. Other than stuff that he's conceived of himself, like edges or hands or nightmares. There's just no walk here.

And I also think that helps with removing the kitsch of it, which it's not like I dislike Burton kitsch when I think it's well done but I think this movie was him trying to prove like I don't have to be tongue in cheek I'll let Depp do all the subversiveness I'm gonna play this movie straight down the middle you know and really kind of invest in this as

like a respectable honest world and I think also just the fact like I mean so this movie I was 10 when it came out. Yeah, I was going to ask if you saw it in theaters. This is an R. I did. I was so rabid about him. My parents were very reticent to take me to R-rated

movies and this was a no question of course we're going to take you to see it because I was just fucking nuts about him. How many of his films had you seen in the theater? Because you're young. I'm young like when are you getting hooked on burton i mean that's the thing it's like marz attacks was maybe the only one i saw in the theater but i'd seen all of them on video yeah there's no way you'd seen like ed wood in the

theater definitely not i was not allowed to see ed wood until i was like a year or two after this right uh because it has methadone i guess guess it does. Such a taboo. Yeah. Oh, my. Yeah. Did you see this in the theater? I did. I think I saw, I became a Burton fan very early.

I was probably nine. Okay. And my parents would not let me see Batman or Batman Returns. Okay. They did let me see Edward Scissorhands. So that was the first thing I saw of his in the theater. Right, right, right. When I was, I think, nine years old. Sure. And then I saw everyone after that. scissorhands so that was the first thing i saw of his in the theater right right when i was i think

nine years old sure and then i saw everyone after that so batman returns you that's after okay so i didn't see but they didn't let me see batman returns why not your parents are it's strange i think they felt they just like the kinkiness was a little bit too much for me yeah i mean which it wasn't so i had all the trading cards had the making of book, but it took me a while to see the film itself. But you saw Ed Wood, you think? Yeah, they did take me

to see Ed Wood. By that point, Kikinas was okay, I guess. Sure. So I went to see Ed Wood. And then Mars Attacks and then this. Mars Attacks was a big deal.

I saw like the week advanced screening. They always would do like a Sunday afternoon advanced screening and I remember getting advanced tickets to it and then this one.

This one, I was a projectionist at this point. Like shortly after Mars Attacks came out, I got my first job at a- I know I want to know the David Lowery story. I don't know. Yeah, where are you from? I'm in Dallas, Texas. Okay, cool.

The first Megaplex in the country is the AMC Grand. Okay. How many screens? 24 screens. Wow. It was the first time that had happened. Wow, yeah. And so I was- What year was this that it opened? 24 screens. Wow. It was the first time that had happened. Wow, yeah. And so I was-

What year was this that it opened? It opened in 95, I think. Braveheart was the first movie I saw there. Okay. It appears to be closed now or sort of half closed? It's closed and then it got turned into a studio movie grill, which is sort of a ripoff of- Like an Alamo.

Alamo. I don't know what. I haven't been there in years yeah you're right it opened in 1995 and it was a big deal I saw Braveheart and then I saw Species

and that was my sure my summer you grow right up with those two movies exactly right and then

so anyway I was kind of modeling my career at that point off of Owen Wilson who also is from Dallas Wes Anderson as well but Owen Wilson also that was sort of the Wilson, who also is from Dallas. Wes Anderson as well, but Owen Wilson also. That was sort of the path you saw.

Bottle Rocket had just come out and I was like, okay, that's what I'm going to do. So Owen Wilson had been a projectionist at an AMC theater. And I think, okay, that's the ticket. Got to write a script, be a projectionist, go right at this one particular coffee shop that they worked at where Kumar, that Kumar owned. And so I did all those things. I, as soon as I turned 16,

applied at the AMC Grand. Right. Did, you know, my time in the concession stand, but quickly worked up to become a projectionist. Okay. This was in the 35 millimeter era.

So it was a much more, there's a lot more responsibility. Right. Yeah. Although they did entrust often one 16 year old me to run all 24 projectors at once what how is that even possible you just run a lot it's like the projection booth is about a mile i was gonna ask why your calves are the size of my head um wait is it all on one floor it's it's a yeah it's all on one floor but it's like split into different wings yeah and like four different wings and so

all the timing is staggered but then you staggered. Don't you have to move? They're a platter system, so they're not changeovers. It's all automated once you hit start. You just have to thread it up and let it go. When you say it's in different wings, were the projection booths in one wing connected so that you didn't have to run in and out? Yes, exactly. You have a cluster of three or four.

You have a cluster of ten. And then another cluster of ten. And then two smaller clusters of two for the biggest auditoriums. Wow. This is so fascinating. Yeah, I love this. I loved this job. I loved being a projectionist.

So I did it far longer than I should have from the time I was 16 to 24. Wow. Around the time I turned 24, I realized it was possible to make more than $6 an hour. But up until that point, I felt I was, a king's wage was being earned. Did you get a free movie, probably? Oh, free movies, yeah.

I ultimately was fired for sneaking too many friends in. Wow. After eight years, they did you dirty? I think they were just ready for me to go. Do you feel like

that's kind of the thing that then, like, pushed you into having to make your own films? Oh, totally, yeah, yeah. You would have stayed there. I haven't had a real, like, day job since then. Right. Yeah. There's like a cinema Paradiso movie here, though your own films was like, you would have stayed there. I haven't had a real day job since then. There's like a cinema

Paradiso movie here where it's like the old owner's like, David's got to find his own way. Let's find a reason to fire him. But you, during this time, were also writing submitting Ain't It Cool reviews. Were you not? Yeah, in fact, the very first thing I ever sent to Ain't It Cool

was a review of the Sleepy Hollow trailer Really? Yes Because you were getting to see stuff early when they would do sort of test screenings

Exactly Because Dallas actually was a big test screening hub Blade Runner showed this was before my time of course but Blade Runner and E.T. were both like

heavily test screened in Dallas But that's like those are the types of major cities that aren't industry hubs in the way that New York and L.A. are

where like if you have a big studio movie You you're showing it five months in advance. You do it there. Yeah. So you would be watching things from the projector booth and writing notes and then submitting them to Vern? Or what would happen is the night before, you'd build up the print and then you'd have to watch it to make sure you built it up correctly. Oh, wow. There were no misplaces. Before the event. Right, right, right. you'd build up the print and then you'd have to watch it to make sure you built it up correctly before the even

right so whether it was an advanced screening a test screening or even just Thursday night before the movie you had to run the print through did you have to do that

at like one in the morning oh yeah so like Friday mornings in high school like I was not present because I would be up all night and I eagerly waited Thursday night

it was always exciting because you got to see a movie yeah and we would try to if there was like a movie that was outgoing, we would try to cancel that screening

so we could get started early with running the prints through and checking them. And so one time, you know, people, you could sometimes bring friends to these

like Thursday night screenings and Dark City was coming out. Sure. And I invited a couple of friends who invited a couple of friends and it ended up being like 40 people showed up

to see Dark City and my manager was like, uh, people showed up to see Dark City. And my manager was like, please ask them to leave right now. Anyway, I was a projectionist when this opened. And I was thrilled. I was so excited for it. I had been waiting for it for a long time. Obviously, I had studied the trailer and reviewed it for Any Cool News.

The trailer for this was like fucking big. It was good. I watched it again yesterday, and it's a good trailer. This was one of the early movies that really weaponized the internet and fan culture, oddly, because their website was huge. There's a Variety article, David,

if you want to look it up, from 1999. I know the Wikipedia links to it, about how Paramount was making, certainly for an R-rated movie, but also for any movie. They were pushing it in ways. Like a big online push. Right.

There was a big website. They had merchandise on the website nine months in advance where you could buy Heads Will Roll shot glasses. Right. That was a big thing. And they had YPK on there. We're making a scary R-rated blockbuster. We have the footage here.

They have people who worked on the movies doing live chats. They had the McFarlane toys toy line. They did. Which produced, I'll get to a merchandise spotlight later, one of the least successful action figures of the 90s came out of this movie. But yeah, they were

really fucking going for it in a way that feels odd to think about now for how violent this movie is, how much it is one film designed to be a fully standalone thing, something that has name recognition

but not a built-in audience. I wonder if there was ever a moment when it did well where they're like, huh, can we make a second one? Can the Headless Horseman return? Or do you buy another property of another weird

folklore story and have Ichabod Crane right that's like the Brampton Dracula and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein which never works

or like the Huntsman Winter's War kind of thing where it's like well right that one is like the early years of Michael Gambon

and Sleepy Hollow battling demons yeah actually that would be cool if they cast Michael Gambon now yeah you could get Walken back

you could do a prequel Sleepy Hollow Origins Walken's the most interesting aspect of this movie because this is the very last moment where he could have done this

this is the well this is the bottom of his career a wordless role yeah yeah yeah but also after this his career rebounds but as a post-modern

funny Walken and the SNL appearances and the Spike Jonze videos and all those sorts of things you couldn't have taken him seriously in a role like this 18 months later. But, like, at this point, he is, I mean, he's so far removed from success. Like, he's, you know, he might be the weird character actor who pops up in Pulp Fiction or something.

But it's also interesting, like, this is, not only is Burton operating solely in his wheelhouse, but he's just bringing out all of his heavy hitters. Like, he's just getting the rogues gallery of Burton character actors all into one soundstage. This is the first of his Christopher Lee run. This is sort of the end of his walk-in run. Oh, and this was before Christopher Lee had his renaissance. This is the start of it.

My mom interviewed Christopher Lee for this movie. Really? Because he had an autobiography I think that came out right around this point. Right. I guess he was sort of essentially- He was like 75. He thought his career was probably over.

And then he had a 10-year- He was in this- The BBC did this adaptation of Gorman Gas, the Mervyn Peake novels, which are so good. And he was in this. So, right. It was a bit of a swan song.

With no concept that, right, he was about to have this- Right around the corner. 10-year reign as old man Christopher Lee. The most bankable movie star in Hollywood. It's like 15 years later, a swan song you know with no concept that right he was about right around the corner 10 year reign as old man right the most bankable movie star like 15 years later he'll be putting out a metal album and so i remember like my mom had to watch all these hammer horror movies which she does not like horror movies so i watched them all with her and so i had all this fun watching all these cool

hammer horror movies that he's you know all the greats and then she interviewed him and said that he was like literally like the like most perfect british gentleman like all time like you know and he used to be like a spy like he has such an incredible like life story but uh right she would interview these british character actors and be like they're just literally like the nicest people in the world when burton and deb did interviews about this movie at the time they said the big thing they wanted to emulate was that sort of the elegance yes no i mean the hammer horse aesthetically but the big thing they wanted to emulate was that sort of elegance. No, I mean, the Hammer Horrors aesthetically, but the big thing they wanted to latch onto

was the elegance that Cushing and Lee would bring to it. Well, because those movies are like, they've got that gore and that sort of visceral shock value. But then, right, they do have lots of dialogue scenes where everyone's sort of laying out the plot very eloquently and mellifluously.

They said there's just a grace to those guys. That presence they brought. They said there's just a grace to those guys, you know? That presence they brought. They're classy. Right. Right. There's a touch of the poet. Yes. And speaking of which, one of the other connections to the prequel trilogy is this is episode three, but that Tom Stoppard came in to do

the draft of the screenplay. Yeah. Which shows, I mean, you can just tell all the witticisms that occur between Johnny Depp and Christina Ricci. You just feel that touch through and through. That's apparently what they mostly brought him on to do, is to really hone up the Crane character

and add that sort of gothic humor to it. You must have a bit of witch in you because you have bewitched me. It's such a goofy line, but it works so well. In my memory, that was the trailer's big line right or at least one of the big lines weirdly the big image they kept on using to sell the movie was her blindfolded kissing him on the cheek it's true that image was fucking everywhere well and she's right on the poster stop motion printing of it so they slowed it down in the trailers beyond what it is in the movie right

she's billed on the poster like yeah she was a big part of the view. She was, she just won a Golden Globe or whatever. She's like, she's a big deal. Because this role isn't huge, and I would argue it's the least effective part of the movie. And you kind of feel. You almost want, like, a little more. Like, you know, it would work if she had just a little more to do. Yeah.

It feels unbalanced because she's Christina Ricci. Like, you know, if they had cast like some actress just out of drama school and put her in this role, you would have been like, that's another one of the company players. I was debating that watching because it does feel undercooked, but they give her just enough to where it's acceptable. Like, the fact that she

is doing these hexes and kind of protecting Ichabod is smart because even though she's not actively doing much on screen, you still feel the character has a significant presence in the story. Right. But I think also

people were excited because it was like and then this becomes another Burton problem is like oh he's casting someone who looks like they were made to be in a Burton movie.

It looks like one of his drawings. Which at the time was exciting and then people get to the point where it's like that's boring that he's putting like Eva Green in.

Not because Eva Green isn't good but because she looks like he drew her. He becomes a slave of his own aesthetic. Right. Like that's boring that he's putting like Eva Green in. Not because Eva Green isn't good, but because she looks like he drew her. He becomes a slave of his own aesthetic. Right. Like that's the Burton story. But this is the crux point where like he can still do it just as he wants it to look.

And we're all still on board. I think. Even now. Like going back to now where like I have issues with the aesthetic. Like it's like this movie is a breath of fresh air. I think this movie worked better now even than it did in its time it didn't get great reviews no like it

wasn't like some movie where people were like you know it's a masterpiece I think I feel like the line on this movie when it came out was it looks great it was gorgeous but hollow is kind of what everyone said no pun intended but yeah you read the reviews at the time and they were fairly middling and they were like the screenplays wrote whatever and then the two things were like it's kind of cool that Depp's getting away with this, and the thing looks fucking unbelievable.

And it got those Oscar, it got three Oscar nominations. Right, and won Best Art Direction. It deserved it. Should have won all three of those. Well, it was never going to win Cinematography, because that's the Conrad L. Hall, American Beauty. Although Conrad Hall shot the opening scene of the movie so it's an interesting

Did he? Yeah, he did the whole Martin Landau sequence. What's the backstory on that? Do you know? Chivo just wasn't available and Conrad just subbed in.

Exactly. Yeah, just a pinch hitter. They wanted to shoot the movie Black and White Academy ratio. The studio was like are you fucking

kidding me? I feel like that conversation did not get far at all. Are you aware of the budget of this film? I feel like maybe in retrospect, they thought, Oh, that would have been cool if we had done that. Let's talk about like,

there's no way that ever, they never actually, never considered that. Scott Rudin, like even Rudin's going to, I'm not, come on guys. Right.

But then, uh, they just make it look like a black and white. That's the great thing is that it's so sort of saturated and they figured out how to use the sort of fog and the smoke and the background paintings and all that sort of stuff on set to sort of play up the starkness of the colors. But the big difference is like at this point, there's still a lot of tactile craft that has to go into creating that sort of image.

And then they push it the final 10% digitally in post. Now it just feels like Burton makes a movie and then he slides the contrast all the way. It's interesting watching the trailer because the trailer does not have the same grading that the movie does. So you see what it looked like before they finally put it. It's much warmer.

The colors are more vibrant. It doesn't look as good. But of course it was all done photochemically. I'm sure it was. This would have been a photochemical great well O Brother is the year after yeah this is pre O Brother all done photochemically and it just looks glorious

and it was all so well planned you can just tell that Chivo and Burton and Rick Heinrichs did the production design and that they had just figured that out in advance everything speaks to that the big distinction to me is that they knew everything they need to do in advance to best create that image later versus him just shooting like because you'll see the same things when like paparazzi photos or like the early production stills come out from something like dark shadows

and it has a totally different color palette than the final movie yeah but that's just them going into like you know figuring it out later right so Chivo had done he'd done those collaborations with Caron right like and he I think he got an Oscar nomination for A Little Princess which is a movie Random Hearts he does not do Random Hearts now I want

to know who shot Random Hearts though no he's you know he's still pretty like he did like Meet Joe Black the year before he did some like elegant like movie pretty like he did like Meet Joe Black the year before he did some like elegant like movie star movie he did

The Birdcage weird he did Reality Bites did you know he shot Reality Bites that was his first American film right

because before then he had done Spanish language films he did like Water for Chocolate which is a very pretty movie Mexican films

these are Mexican films but yeah this was Burton said he hired him off of Great Expectations. Which looks great. Which looks great. I mean, he's a great

filmmaker. And it's kind of disappointing that they never worked together again after this. Because it feels like they really crystallized something.

Philippe Rousselot shot Random Hearts. Bringing him back. We were talking about it before. That is bizarre. Who then becomes his guy for like six or seven movies.

Did you know he shot The Cat in the Hat? Yes. Philip Rousselot? No, Lubezki. Chivo. did you know he shot the cat in the hat? no, Lubezki Lubezki shot the cat in the hat? that's fucking insane he shot Ali I knew that, beautifully shot and then yeah, he becomes bright

Malik and Cuaron, those are his guys and then Iñárritu starting with Birdman yeah but Cat in the Hat looks like fucking Care Bear diarrhea. Like it doesn't even have like... I've never seen it. It's a nightmare. I mean, I bet you learned a lot on that movie.

Sure. Yeah. Everybody did. But yeah, so with this movie, they want it to be... They're a location scout, right? They think about shooting this in a real village. They went in upstate New York. They were like, let's go to where Sleepy Hollow... My wife was actually in Sleepy Hollow the other day and didn't realize it was a real place. She was like, oh, I like in a real village they went in upstate new york they were like let's go to where sleepy hollow my wife was actually in sleepy hollow

the other day and didn't realize it was a real place she's like oh i'm in a town called sleepy hollow and i was like that's it that's the real that's the real one i have friends who live there you know it was it used to be called north terrytown or something and they eventually were like let's rename ourselves sleepy hollow much cooler name and like we'll get tourists to come yeah and that is the because the was Washington Irving place, the story references Tarrytown as being adjacent to Sleepy Hollow. It was a little hamlet or whatever. A little collection of folks.

But it didn't look right. No. Because it's the suburbs up there now. It's not some quaint English town. And they wanted that sort of... American town. Brand new American town. They wanted that controlled, grand, guignol kind of thing.

Right. So they built the fucking thing. They built a huge village and then shot some of the movie on that. But then most of it, I think, must be sound. It looks like most of it is soundstage. I think a lot of soundstage is. But I just love this movie having, being in a pre pre let's just green screen everything

the fact that surrounding them on all these sets especially the exterior sets are just these beautiful like still

backdrops of like clouds and fog sure there's something very eerie about the fact that it doesn't move at all yeah it's really

it's really hard to do yes I've tried to do it recently and it's not easy especially in a film that's this dark. Exactly. And Chivo then took it even further with A Series of Unfortunate Events. Yes.

That movie also, I think, was the last big soundstage exterior movie. And looking at the lighting grids for that are just mind-boggling. That movie looks unbelievable. It's incredible. But that feels like him kind of running with everything he did on this movie. This was like the practice run for that and what a glorious practice run it is. And there's something about

the quaintness of it too. Like they're always, the Headless Horseman's always running through the same path in the woods because I feel like they had like a very limited, and Burton talks about this on the commentary track,

like these Spanish stallions running at full gallop on this very limited path up a hill in a soundstage. Right. Whereas like if they made this movie tomorrow, they would build the patch of the ground and a couple trees or rocks that they would rearrange and shoot different angles

and they would just add all the trees. All the trees would be there later. Right. There's probably like not even that much digital set extension in this. Because like the windmill's miniature, which means that, or a forced perspective

miniature so it's probably a backdrop behind that and he said pointedly wanted to do as much in camera as possible you know so I think the biggest CGI effect

in this movie is just the headless horseman himself yeah which is just putting a green hood over Ray Park's head is that what they did

yeah yeah that was how they did it yeah they didn't do the Casper Van Dien you know cloak attached to that's what's in the Casper Van Dien, you know, cloak attached to his head? That's what's in the trailer

though. And in the trailer you don't know that and it's still pretty effective. Right, right, right. But there is something very eerie to the way that he moves because he's not moving with that sort of like full body turn that the head on the shoulders kind of thing does.

You know? And the high collar. It's like I was... They had problems with low ceilings. As you're saying, Phantom Menace all the set height was at digital extensions but here they had problems with how low the ceilings are at Leavesden which is funny. So they used a lot of

smoke they said. Which works. There's that one shot where he looks off into the cornfields and some deer run out. so they used a lot of smoke they said yeah which works looks great there's that one shot where he looks off into the cornfields and like some deer run out and like deer are like

notoriously bad actors so I assume that those are all digital sure and they look real yeah and like I've made a movie with

CG deer it's because you just you can't get them to do anything so they never look good and I was like watching I was like oh those look like real deer

and they had to have been digital. Yeah. There's no way they were real. Yeah. And I noticed the deer and I thought, I just saw a movie with digital deer, very good digital deer. So you just can't.

It's hard. It's just really hard. They're just not trained, I guess. You don't really train them. You can like, yeah, you can't really get them to do anything. But like, what if you need like something to be like a metaphorical stand in

for like a loss of innocence or something like that. Maybe you shoot it on a green screen and composite it in rather poorly. Yeah. The other thing is you realize which like I just fucking love now is like these special effects houses are like yeah that's an asset we have. We know people need

CGI animal doubles. Yeah we got a deer. So you're not going to have to eat a part of your budget having us render a deer for the first time. Right. You know, like, when I would go to, like, special effects houses in LA, they'd be like, yeah, here's a pile of babies. And I was like, what did you make these for? And they're like, people always need babies. That's so funny.

You just make some babies. You have some babies, you have some varietals. So they're like, and sometimes we make them fight. Like, you know, they're just doing, like, weird little experiments. Yeah, but it's like, if you're a special effects house now, you want to have like a good stable of assets of like, you know, livestock and shit. You did a big special effects movie. I mean, Pete's Dragon.

Right. I don't know. I mean, the deer were probably like what they do is like they take the skeleton and they're like maybe like adjust it slightly. And the deer probably were from some other movie. Right. The biggest asset that we used that was humorous to me was Robert Redford. Robert Redford. Which we carried over into Old Man and the Gun probably were from some other movie. The biggest asset that we used that was humorous to me was Robert Redford, which we carried over

in Old Man and the Gun. You bought the rights now, right? To that program? It's like that Robin Wright movie where he signed over the Congress. Right. Or Simone.

Either one works. The scenes where you know the people are interacting with the dragon he's a furry dragon the physical contact the physical contact

is really tough they've talked about that with the apes movies too where they often just end up having to replace the hands entirely and we borrowed Mowgli's hands

from Jungle Book really from the Favreau Jungle Book yeah yeah that's fucking cool so a couple of shots it's Mowgli's hands from Jungle Book. Really? From the Favreau Jungle Book? Yeah, yeah. That's fucking cool. And so a couple of shots of Mowgli's hands. That also feels like weirdly very classical Disney because there's all that stuff where like Little John

and Robin Hood is blue. Just completely recycling the actual animation frames. Right. Other than like the mouth sync, it's literally the same motions, they just put different clothes and colors on it. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Fucking rules. You gotta make your movie. Yeah. So this movie starts with the Landau sequence.

Has something to do with the plot of the movie. Yes. I don't... I think that's the initial murder or one of the initial murders, I guess. He's bringing the deed

or whatever. Right, because there's the will. The credits come over that will. Or at least some of them. But it works as just like a sort of statement of intent for the movie, which is like we're going to chop heads off. This is going to kind of be a slasher movie. We're going to build

that tension around when the guy's going to come out and you're going to see the fucking heads spinning and rolling on camera. And then you get the Burton scarecrow, which now is like a thing, but that was the first time I think he had really, maybe Nightmare Before Christmas had that same Scarecrow. I remember seeing this in the theater and people giggling when that came up

and not in a mocking way of being like, oh, we're in a Burton movie. Like excited giggling. And then you get the splash of blood just across it. It's also like the headings were really well done because- So fucking well done. Because they always, they're always really fast. They don't linger on it, but they always, they're always really fast. Yeah.

They don't linger on it, but they always have a few frames of the actor reacting. Yes. Right before the blade cuts through their throat. Right. They don't do the like

Mission Impossible. Where you can tell it's a fake head that's about to get chopped off. And you cut right before the impact sort of thing. And they have like, they come up with different gags for each of them.

Yes. You know, what the head does. Right. Yeah. The stuff's so good and the heads themselves are so fucking good.

Then the one that always gets me is when Casper Vandian gets bisected rather than beheaded. Yes. He's like, one time I'm gonna... Well, it's because he wasn't on,

he's not part of the plot. He doesn't need that head. The guy's just, right, he's just an interference. Yeah. I remember being so fucking terrified seeing this movie.

Like, I was... Well, you were young. Yeah, and I was not gonna not see it because I loved Bert and my mom was like yeah i'll take you to see that like she assumed i wanted to see it maybe she didn't get how because it's such a tony like you know a old-fashioned tale like maybe she just didn't get that it was gonna be so violent but even watching with her and she was like a mom who would like walk me out of movies a lot we were like she was like this is like great right it's like burton It's like a cartoon or whatever. Like she was like really fucking into it.

I just remember having to act like I wasn't terrified. Right. And just the sort of like slasher movie superstructure always scared me. The dread of, oh, when is someone else going to get stabbed? And when you could tell a scene was the tease for that. Leading up to it. I remember being like so relaxed anytime this movie had to deal with procedural stuff. Right. There's a lot of

conversation. Right, because I was like, okay, this is a scene where I can fucking breathe. You know? But anytime anyone was walking out at night, I was just like, Jesus fucking Christ. Like grabbing the armrest in terror. But this opening, I was just like, whew, okay. Like it felt like the beginning of a rollercoaster where it's like,

I gotta buckle in and deal with this thing now. Well, he chops Martin Lando's head off. Doesn't cut to credits then, which I like. Goes to New York City.

Sure. Bloated corpse floating up from I don't know, Hudson? Yeah, Hudson Docks. Like, there was a lot

in the screenplay because they published a screenplay in a nice hardbound edition and there was a lot of material there that, or not a lot, but a significant amount that got cut out about how Ichabod Crane was a man of science. And there was like someone on trial. You see him in the background of the courtroom scene with Christopher Lee. Someone who's like in a archaic torture machine.

Is in like a kind of open Iron Maiden type thing. Yes, exactly. And in the script, he was about to be, you know, subjected to the worst punishment possible. But Ichabod Crane had like proof scientifically. Yeah. And he's sort of like the first forensic cop. Exactly. Which I love.

Do you think they just cut that out because the movie requires him to throw that all away halfway through, you know, or at least like admit like, OK, I guess this is a supernatural event. Right. You get it in sort of basics. I mean, he's kind of got the Indiana Jones arcones arc where it's like look i'm a practical guy i'm dealing with these things as they are there are rules to this world and if we follow them we will uncover the truth right and whereas like indiana jones it's always like halfway through he's like oh fuck god kind of does exist this movie is like halfway through like oh shit satan's real or at least some sort of hell dimension. Right, right.

In a tree. Yeah. But also, I mean, obviously tied to his mother. Yes. This whole notion of the idea of persecuting witchcraft or anything that can't be explained or understood. I like this whole notion. I mean, I remember at the time that was a thing that people complained about

where they were like, they've ruined Ichabod Crane and turned him into a classic Hollywood movie hero. How was Ichabod Crane and turned him into like a classic Hollywood movie hero. How was Ichabod Crane so beloved that you could ruin him? Yeah, and also it's like the other bit was just like he's a coward and a school teacher who just tries to survive, you know? He didn't have much agency. I love the animated short. I guess they probably aired it on television around Halloween maybe. I don't know how.

I saw it. They played a lot on TV and it was originally I don't know how I saw it. I saw it. They would play it a lot on TV. And it was originally, it was one of those half movies. Yes. Where like Disney didn't have a full feature in the can, so they combined that with Mr. Toad. Right, right, right. And that would get re-released.

It would get released on its own separate VHS. It would get aired on TV. And it's great and beloved, but I had no allegiance to the story so much that I was like. No, it's like a goofus character. Yeah. Which is like kind of the fun of it. Right.

But you can't really form a movie around that guy and have him like drive the cart, you know? Unless Johnny Depp had gotten his makeup, maybe. Right, right. But it's a nice balance because he still plays him as a big old fraidy cat. Yeah, kind of a weirdo. But he's got a thing, a task he's got to do

more than just live through this. And I like that he's not... He's still figuring it out. Like, he doesn't know exactly task he's got to do more than just live through this. And I like that he's not, he's still figuring it out. Like, he doesn't know exactly what he's doing, but he knows that he's, like, right on the precipice of grasping something greater scientifically. And he's, like, he's determined to stick to his guns and follow that up until

he finds out that hell exists. Yeah, and I think they don't overplay... It's just halfway in, right? It's like, I guess this is a portal to another dimension, so, okay, alright. Science out the window. Yeah, right. And they don't overplay the, like, I guess this is a portal to another dimension. So, okay. All right. Okay. That's got to be it. Yeah. Right. And they don't overplay the like something Picasso bit of like, ha ha ha. He knew the thing was going to be big before everyone else. No, because he's a weirdo.

He's like a weird freak. And they also don't make him super powered where he's like dusting for fingerprints. He's not like Dexter going in there and looking at blood spatter and thinking, oh, well, the head was cut off 30 yards from here and not where you thought it was. His devices aren't necessarily super effective. I like every time he tries to do something, he makes a fucking mess of the place. The blood spatter on his like eyeglasses always. The blood spatter in this movie is so good.

The blood in this movie is fantastic. But sometimes it's like the little mistings. Sometimes it's streaks. Sometimes it's like the whole face cover. But right. He arrives. Yeah. The old English people are all like, you know, you got your your character actors are all

in a room and they're like, there's a headless horseman. He's topping people's heads off and he's a demon from hell and then he goes to the first crime scene he's like seems to be some kind of like a horseman collects the heads smote a sword like he doesn't have any the only thing he gets

is that the blade cauterizes that it's hot which is cool and that's what they say devil fire but I do think it's hot. Right. Which is cool. And that's when they say devil's fire. Super fucking right. But I do think it's subtle. I just like that he doesn't go in there and he's like,

oh, the headless horseman must live over there because of the, right. My goggles knows this. It's subtle, but there's a weird kind of unbalancing effect to the fact that the credits come after he's sent to Sleepy Hollow rather than after the Landau cold open.

Because that feels like a classic movie move of like cold open with characters you're not going to see again, then go to credits, and then we're in the real story. Well, I bet that the Landau thing wasn't in the script originally. Yes.

And then hence Conrad Hull having to shoot it because they went back and were like, we need to start this movie off with something scary related to the plot as opposed to this discovery of a corpse in a courtroom scene. Right. Because otherwise you don't get the horseman for like 30 minutes.

And the other problem is like the mystery hinges on these dead bodies that are dead. Where they're like, oh and the widow, it turns out the widow is pregnant. You're like, I don't know who those people are. And they don't have heads. They've already been decapitated by the time they get there. They don't even have a face.

They have to have like an Academy Award winning beloved legend like get decapitated on reteaming with tim burton who has won him that academy right where you're just like okay so that's a person i get like people are dying but like so much of what they uncover and it they do also have the problem of the two dutch families with similar names where they're like it turns out right she was trying to get a one over on the other dutch family and you're like who and then you remember like oh the dead people who we never see right and landau i guess that's them i do like how much this movie is about like sort of like family wealth and like family trees and real estate and

like you know old america yeah these english people those are just like mattered at that point this is my town and i'm the you know I'm the notary, and that guy's the... Right? Like, everyone's got their fancy positions. But it does feel like... But it's like a town of 20 people. Yes. And more so than, like, because watching this movie, I'm sure I wasn't alone in this,

I kept on sort of, like, comparing this in my mind to the Guy Ritchie Sherlock Holmes movies. Uh-huh. And I feel like this movie has more of a central mystery to be solved than the Guy Ritchie movies. Where it's kind of like he's so smart that he's able to punch people. Well, isn't it? Right. Well, isn't the Guy Ritchie movie. The smartest puncher in the world.

He's so smart. And so, yeah. Well, for one, Guy Ritchie never saw a premise where he wasn't like, there are English working class people in here. Let's just dig until we find them. Right. That's what he wants. He wants to get to the streets. But also, isn't the premise of Sherlock Holmes

is, Sherlock Holmes is like, magic doesn't exist. The movie is like, it sure seems like it does. And then at the end, it turns out it doesn't. And Sherlock Holmes is like, I was right. Correct. Whereas this is the opposite. Which is more interesting to watch as a character arc. Yeah, and also,

this is a horror movie. Like, you know, yeah, it's got to exist. And he's not smarter than the audience. Right. The set pieces in this movie, save for the two sort of sword fights, are deaths. Yeah, cool deaths. Gory deaths. This movie doesn't add in, like, a bunch of superfluous chases or fight scenes or any of that.

I wonder, once the heads start rolling, how, like how frequently they are like compared to Kevin Yeager's original 10 minute. Yeah. Every 10 minute vision. Yeah. They're pretty, there's a lot of them. There's at least like seven.

I'd say there's one every 15 minutes. I mean, I just remember very viscerally, like as a child sitting in the theater being like, fuck, another one's going to come up. Like I never felt super relaxed and it did feel like the roller coaster thing of like there's another loop like how many this has to be ending soon you

know like i loved living in the movie but i was like let him just fucking fix this solve the case well no uh so yeah he chops off crane arrives and and then there is this very like clearly designed opening credit sequence like this long sort of travelogue in the carriage which comes like only like 10 minutes in after you've had Christopher Lee send him off which is such an ominous thing to be like Christopher Lee's

telling you guys to leave as the burgomaster and then it's also a thing I love as billing nerds when an actor gets high single card billing even though their performance is already over done by the time the

billing happens does anyone get a with or an and in this? I think Walken maybe gets an and maybe I don't know what was I going to say he arrives they explain these people are dead. And it's a great,

like, it's so much exposition. He sees Ian McDermott making out with someone. Yes. That's right. As you do when you enter a new town. Of course. Welcome to Hollywood.

Yeah. And, and yeah, there's a lot of explanation to be done. But it's like so, it's like, it's delicious exposition because of the actors who are giving it.

And it's like, I don't care. I don't, even now, like, I don't really know what the plot of the movie is. Like, I'm like the mystery. Like, it doesn't matter to me, but I enjoy listening to them talk about it so much that that takes the place of like other movies that do this where you're just like, come on.

Like, I don't want to deal with this exposition here. I'm happy to sit through it because it's so enjoyably. Well, and there are two things that are fun. One is that the mystery is a really good combination of like real and supernatural things. It's like there's a supernatural force, but these killings are tied to really gross human sort of capitalist greed. Right. Sure. So there is a web to untangle that isn't just like he comes from hell.

Right, right, right. You know, there's like a pattern to be figured out here. Yeah, there's this whole, and I think I, you know, as we were talking about, the mystery is that it's all, you only care about it so much. Yeah. Right. Uh,

there's a whole thing going on. Like they're all like sleeping with each other's wives. And when you, like you said, when you think about how few people live in this town, I know it's like, there's some stuff running around. I feel bad about it.

Like there's a lot of guilt, like sort of wafting off of like Michael Gambon and, uh, you don't know that it's Ian McDermott at the beginning, there's a lot of guilt, like, sort of wafting off of, like, Michael Gambon and Ian McDermott. You don't know that it's Ian McDermott at the beginning, but it just sets this tone of, like, he's walking into his first house and already there are people who, like, are borderline fucking outside the door. Yeah. Like, this town just has, like, weird lust in it. Right. Very puritanical, you know, of the era.

He shows up, does an autopsy on a pregnant woman, and they're all like, Jesus, this guy's a freak. The other thing that's fun in this movie is that he comes in so hot because he's this big New York City dude and that scene where he's walking around them and doing his like, also decapitated, which I remember thinking was the funniest fucking thing in the world

that he just thinks like, I'm playing him like a fiddle it's one of the six guys in this room and then they start telling him this insane story. They're like, oh no, he's a demon from hell. You don't know, Hessian, you know. Right, even before he died, he ground his teeth into claws. Yeah, well, you get that amazing flashback.

I love Walken just going wild. And then the two little girls and this twig stand. I think that's just fun. And it's fun to watch Walken do like fight choreography. Like swing a bunch of axes and swords around and shit. But that's really good. And then he comes out of it

and you see immediately he's lost a lot of his confidence in the case. Not because he assumes that's an explanation, but just because this town seems fucked up. Completely.

Like he realizes that he's been given the worst possible case. This is a test for him. This is like a Beverly Hills cop. Yes. Completely. Like, he realizes that he's been given the worst possible case he could have been. Like, this is a test for him. This is like a Beverly Hills cop. Yes. Right.

That's what Christopher Lee's doing, right? Let me get this guy out of my hair. Right, exactly. Science man, yeah. Yeah,

and then the guy gets his head cut off. The sort of... Then it's like romance decapitation. Yeah. A little bit of mystery, more romance than another decapitation kind of like follows this pattern

for a little while the Ritchie introduction happens before anything else because that's she walks in on the he walks in on the game where she's blindfolded Katrina Van Tassel

yeah yes the pickety witch right gets the kiss and then it's like Gambon all the old men

harumph and harumph and bringing him into the parlor right to explain what he doesn't know right and then Mr. Phillips gets his like head chopped off and the kid joins ichabod right you know and then

we've also getting these flashbacks to ikarad's childhood right because he's got this weird pattern on his hand scarification yes that's some wild stuff those flashbacks and so well done because they're so well done the rest of the film. They really are. They got White Chapel. Yes. Red Door. Good weird trauma.

And also they set it up. And Lisa Marie. Right. I was going to say Lisa Marie adds such a weird power to these movies at these times

because she was often so visual. Yeah. She's the Sherry Moon zombie to Tim Burton's Rob Zombie. Right. But other than Ed Wood she doesn't really speak. No. That's what I'm saying. Sherry Moon zombie too. I feel Rob Zombie. Right, but other than Ed Wood, she doesn't really speak.

No, that's what I'm saying. Sherry Moon zombie too, right? I feel like she's more like a visual. Well, now he has her do a lot. But that was the thing was like you knew that was like a thumbprint of his films, that she always had this weird sort of power. There was an article at that point when that movie

came out that talked about how they would take photos of each other. Or he would take photos of her in morbid situations, like crime scene photos. And then there's this amazing photograph of him, which I have on my phone, I think. And Sally is designed after her. Yeah. Where he's administering the blood to her in the Iron Maiden. Where he's putting it on herself.

To me, at that age, at 19 or 18, when I saw this movie, that was the most romantic. That was like the romantic idea. It just seemed like, God, this is so cool. They found each other. Completely.

And I just was like, that's what I want. I want to find my true love and douse her in blood. And there's something to the fact that she was just like an element of the tapestry

of the Burton thing. Sure. That like she only kind of like existed as like part of like their collaboration as opposed to someone like Helena Bonham Carter where it's like oh right now she's in all his movies now. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. Well that she's gonna take that position but right yeah. Yeah we're like suicide girls a thing at this point. Is that all out of the Burton aesthetic? I'd say that kind of, yeah. A little later? Or at least I found out about it a little bit later?

I feel like that's like 2001. Ben, were you into this sort of like kitschy, slightly burlesque kind of horror goth stuff? Like, I don't know. I feel like you need to be consulted on this. I mean, was this like, did you hate this? Or was this on your you hate this or was this on your radar no this is on my radar i don't think i don't think the what are the girls called again well the suicide girls 2001 so yeah i think that's a little early um yeah this was this was this is a movie for for

my kind of kid in high school right which was like a druggie kid. Um, you know, right. It seemed dark. An old shack down by the river. Yeah. You had to fire a bolt action rifle collection and not out of the furnace.

I'm just doing, you know? Yeah. Uh, yes, of course. Yeah, of course.

Um, but yeah, it was, it was cool. But you didn't see it. No, I did. Oh,

you did. Cause you said you were rewatching. I thought you were seeing it for the first time. No, you did see it. Yeah you didn't see it no i did oh you did because you said you were re-watching i thought you were seeing it for the first time no you did see it yeah i did see it okay uh i just felt like it was i wanted it to be just kind of more like gothic and less procedural i mean that's what i remember at the time going away you wanted like full horror. Yep. Yeah. Not even necessarily full horror, but just, I just, I don't know, because I remember reading

the Irving story too. And I just, I think I wanted it to feel more like an old timey horror. There's a purity to that. Right. You know, it's so simple.

And it's just a headless horseman who wants to cut off heads. There's nothing, like who lives in that town. And if you cross the bridge, you're free. Like, it's so simple. But, you know,man who wants to cut off heads. There's nothing, like, who lives in that town. And if you cross the bridge, you're free. Like, it's so simple. But, you know, the movie had to be two hours.

Sure. Not even. It's kind of nice how tight the film is relatively. Yeah. I remember watching it just to jump ahead to the, you know, the climactic church scene. And just thinking that was the end of the movie. Right. Yes.

It's a great scene. Being completely satisfied. I was like, oh, that was a good mystery solved. It was them all along and completely had forgotten about Miranda Richardson. It delivered the goods. I was happy with that as an ending. Michael Gambon getting impaled and

dragooned out is super cool. The blood on that, as we said, is amazing in this movie. It's got that painterly consistency where it just literally looks like paint. It's so lush. Yeah. And his face, where he's standing there with the fence post coming through his chest. It must have been fun to shoot all of this, especially for these like, you know, I mean,ael goff obviously had done the batman movies um but like if you're uh richard griffiths or uh my michael gambon you haven't done a big budget movie like this like this is an exciting new like hollywood thing what i was gonna say is like imagine like the hotel bar where all these guys were staying right and they're all

talking about it's just the scene from the movie they're all gathered around the time like oliver reed called me a cunt. Right. Hey, hey. Sorry. Hey. Like,

probably did. You're not allowed to say Oliver Reed on this podcast. No, but that's just one of those things I think about

where it's like, God, this must have been so much fun to, like, stay at that hotel as, like, a grip

and come downstairs and just sit at the bar next to them and listen to them, like, rag about, like, Richard Barton

was a hack. He owes me a hay penny. It's interesting because all of these actors are still alive, but they don't... Michael Goff and Richard Griffiths are both gone. Richard Griffiths recently died. Well, not that long, a few years ago. Michael Goff only died pretty recently.

He lived a long, long time. He came out of retirement for this. He was 94 when he died. He was lured out of retirement for this role, which is funny because I wonder how that conversation... He probably lived down the street. It's not like Burton was like, it's a great role, you're a notary.

Gonna give you a mullet. Real stringy. He showed up on set looking like this and he was like, so how do we want to style me? He did a voice for Corpse Bride. I mean, it does seem like they were very close. Sure, of course.

Even when he was physically infirm, he still was willing to come out for Burton. Which is another thing that actors really like working with him. Really? He's like a nice guy? Yeah. I mean, I think, think A he's got like his people that he uses over and over again

which shows a sense of loyalty but B I think like you hear a lot of actors who you would imagine wouldn't want to be part of that sort of like

overblown production and I think he keys into people really well he gives them a lot of freedom there's such a tone that you know you can sort of play

in going into one of his movies I've always been curious about can sort of play in going into one of his movies. I've always been curious about that. I would love to sit on one of his sets. You don't see it really in the behind the scenes footage on the DVDs. But like to sit on one of his sets and watch him direct a scene. Because I have no idea how he does it. The thing I always think about he says is that his least favorite part of directing movies is being on set and having people ask him questions all the time.

I can see that. So his thing is that he paces back and forth endlessly to make it look like he's busy thinking about something else so that studio execs won't come up and bother him. He mutters around and talks to himself to make them be like, oh, I can't bother him right now. That's a good trick. But actors seem to really like working with him.

And key creative people seem to really like working with him and you know key creative people seem to really like working with them i think he doesn't like dealing with executives sure you know he doesn't like dealing with the money or the schedule he's like their favorite guy now right it's it's a very odd thing we i have heard you know you see you hear tell of this though we're like the weirdest directors the executives sort of just become enamored of the weirdness with like oh tim you know it is crazy hair. We'll just let him do what he does. And also these movies now have enormous budgets.

All of his movies are $200 million films at this point and so everyone like the cinematographers have time to like light an insert shot. I remember hearing that about Dark Shadows, about how they spent like half a day lighting an insert shot of Civil War on the table and like, what fun for a DP to finally have a time to get the fork looking just right.

Everyone gets to do the kind of filmmaking they don't necessarily get to do in other types of projects. Because usually the things of this size are like so fucking overblown and like corporate. Yeah. There's no room for that artistry or you're crunched, you're small, you're rushed, you have a lower budget. But he is, I mean mean he is one of the few certainly of like the 2021st century like above the title directors

you know in terms of him being a blockbuster draw his name in and of itself it's always like from the imagination of Tim Burton his imagination has become his trademark that's what they're selling is he's gonna do his thing on this. An entire brand.

It's in book and toy form. The Jack-O-Lantern scarecrown thing, when you see it now, you're like, that's so hacky that it's in the book. You forget, right, this is where this is all coming from. In the same way that from the literal pragmatic mind of Christopher Nolan has

become a selling point. You want to see his version of stuff. This is what we, right, from Visionary Director's The literal pragmatic mind of Christopher Nolan has become like... At some point, it's like you want to see his version of stuff. This is what we... Right? From visionary director Zack Snyder. It's always... Yeah, that's the line. But yes, for Burton, it's imagination.

Yes. So, I'm trying to remember. I mean, the course of action at this point. The headless horseman chops off more heads. Heads roll. I do like the Griffiths spinning heads. He said that he could not be on set when his severed head was on set.

It just freaked him out too much. That's crazy. Seems alarming. I might be freaked out. They're really good heads. They are amazing heads. I'll say too, on season one of The Tick,

we had the character Dr. Karamazov whose body gets shrunk with a shrink ray. And so a lot of, I do a lot of scenes where I have a baby carriage and they had a prosthetic head in there and it would never cease to freak me out. Sure. Like I, I worked with that for like fucking 10, 12 days. And every time I turned around and saw it, I would like get the jitters and it wasn't as high quality as this. Um, the other thing I love is like all these little character details or i don't know if this is like a burton idea or that actors feel like they have the space to come up with these

things and it's like kind of a blender but the idea that like richard griffiths keeps on seeming like sweaty with the wig yes to keep on taking it off to sort of like right pat himself down it's just like such a nice little detail. Who when they die their wig flies off and you see their hair. I think that's Jeffrey Jones. I think that's Jeffrey Jones. Yes, that's Jeffrey Jones. Because his hair

is the most ridiculous. But Griffiths keeps on taking it off in conversation because he keeps on pulling like Ichabod Crane aside to be like let me tell you the real shit.

Yes, exactly. And while he's doing it he's like pulling his wig off and dabbing sweat off his forehead. And yeah, I mean, there's the scene where Casper Vendian does the pretend horseman bit,

which is the ending of the Washington Irving story. Yes. Is that they scare Ichabod Crane away and it has the covered bridge and has all the elements of that story. And then he's like, perhaps my imagination got the better of me. In the original, it was all

a ruse? Yes. What about the Disney film? No, in the Disney film he's real, right? In the short story, I'm pretty sure it's like they freak him out with this tale of the Headless Horseman. What's his name? Like Brutus von Braun or something?

That sounds... Something like that. Balthus von Tassel. Yes. Brom Bones van Brunt. Jesus Christ. That's a great name. And Ichabod Crane is this kind of prissy

Yankee school teacher who's trying to like marry Katrina van Tassel. Yeah. And they get sick of him and so they freak him out with this creepy story and then as he's riding away

he sees the headless horseman so it's a Sherlock Holmes thing if Sherlock Holmes really sucked right and then Katrina marries the Casper Van Dien character and the story implies that the ghost was really just Casper Van Dien so I think that's why you have that

in the movie as a's like a little nod to the original story. And by casting Casper Van Dien you're sort of like drawing a fine line of like this is not the kind of leading man. We're trying to do the opposite of this sort of like Ken doll. This is just like

only other Hollywood role, right? And he got pretty good billing on this. He doesn't have much dialogue but but it was kind of like, okay, Casper and Deanne's going to keep on doing big budget movies. Working with a reputable director. He's the guy that they're going to go to for... Right, he did two big auteur artsy blockbusters. Right, and then I forgot, he plays Patrick Bateman

in The Rules of Attraction, but they delete his scenes. Right. But there's a scene where James Van Der Beek calls, and then he's like, hi, I'm Patrick Batemaneman I'm the American Psycho like I'm wearing a suit but they cut that out and then he like married a princess like he married royalty and had a reality TV show that was him

like in a European country as a prince yes he married a Yugoslavian princess Catherine Oxenberg I saw him at a Lincoln Center screening of Robocop. Verhoeven was doing the two with introduction Q&As in between. And Van Dien was there and looked so fucking hot. He's like 50 now.

Yeah, and I was just like, who the fuck is this handsome guy? He had a beard. He had a crushed velvet suit. Sure. and I was just like, who the fuck is this handsome guy? He had a beard. He had like a crushed velvet suit. Sure. And I was like, Jesus Christ. I bet he looks great with a beard. Yeah, he looks unbelievable. Put him in a movie.

Yeah. Get him in a movie. Yeah. Gauntlet's been thrown. Yeah, exactly. Get some calls. Yeah, bring back Van Dien. Yeah.

Van Dien. Van Dien. So, yeah, I don't know. Whatever. Well, then, yeah, and then Van Dien gets So, yeah, I don't know. Whatever. Well, then, yeah. And then Van Dien gets cut in half. And at some point around this point is the famous scene with the family that gets just all decapitated. Yes.

Oh, yeah. That's really good. And that's like the big Andy Kevin Walker scene. Like, you're just like, okay, that's the writer of Seven. Where you see the mother's head and then her eyes are looking through the floorboards. That's fucking great. I feel like there was a teaser that used that I think they would kind of use that

as a standalone the first teaser was it started with that with the little boy going to the room with the shadows on the wall from his lantern and then he just says yes

and it's apropos of nothing he just says yes and all of a sudden the headless horseman bursts through the door yeah which this was like

a big deal trailer and one of the first times that a studio studio like brought a trailer to Comic-Con and was like playing it on a loop and putting up posters and shit like months before it came out. It works. Like their push works. Like this movie being a hit does not seem like a foregone conclusion. No. And Heads Will Roll felt like one of those like size does matter.

Like everyone was fucking quoting how clever that was. Yeah. those like size does matter like everyone was fucking quoting how clever that was yeah and that image of the tree which was sort of the leading image in their like their early posters had there been like Pan's Labyrinth has a very similar image like iconic trees became a thing but that was like one of the early iconic

trees kind of the roots of gothic tree cinema I think that is such a good poster it's amazing i i i do like this movie yeah it's great thanksgiving right it was a thanksgiving it was a thanksgiving release does any movie ever make you want to like drink apple cider more exactly it's just like it's like right now it's like you just like this morning i felt like the first vestiges of fall it's a little chilly yes right and it's not like a movie like the thing that makes you feel like frozen,

but it's a movie that definitely makes you feel chilly. Like they evoke. You want to wear a thick jacket. A corduroy. It's a great sweater movie. All black, right? Yeah. A little accent of orange. You want to bring in a little pumpkin quality

to your sweater. It is. Makes you want to smoke cigarettes in the parking lot. You know, that first night of the fall where you go outside if you smoke and you are also noticing that your breath is visible for the first time. Yeah, write some dark poetry. Drink some soup. I'm going to get back to a more soupy. Okay.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. What was I going to say? Fuck, I forgot. It doesn't matter. Listen to The Cure. Uh-huh. get it back to a yeah more soupy okay yeah yeah oh yeah um what was i gonna say fuck i forgot it doesn't matter listen to the cure uh-huh you're just you're just a goth oh that's what i was gonna say this movie has the same look as the nightmare before christmas in a lot of ways like the town looks like the nightmare before christmas very much like it is like he finally he was like we can just right we can just do this yeah live action i have the money and i think a lot of the you know,

that comes from the fact that they shot it on a soundstage. In the same way, they just built large versions of the sets from Nightmare Before Christmas. And it's not a comedy and he's not beholden to a set of aesthetics that he has to Burtonize. Like he can Burtonize Batman, but he still has to hit certain key points, you know? And silhouettes and things like that.

Well, like you said, there's no real kitsch. points. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And silhouettes and things like that. Well, like you said, there's no real kitsch. Right. Yeah. The windmill's cool. Well, the witch scene. We can't ignore the witch scene because that is

his one, like, loopy, like, moment early on with the eyes coming out. Which was in the trailer without those, without the eyes. Right. Like, that shot is in the trailer,

but they hadn't finished the effects yet or didn't want to reveal them. Because the movie gets goofier the more Crane is scared. Like that's when Depp goes hard on these things.

And that scene is just like comedic interplay of I like the bit that he keeps on waking up and someone has to explain to him what he missed

because he keeps fainting at the scene of the crime. Right. Also I love the edit of that witch scene where she does the eye thing and then grabs his throat and then it hard cuts to him just walking the scene of the crime. Also, I love the edit of that witch scene where she does the eye thing and then grabs his throat and then it hard cuts to him just walking quickly out of the cave. We're leaving.

All right. I love that scene. And it reminds me of the witch much, much, much later. She kind of acts the way that the comic relief in a big disaster movie acts where he's doing the must go faster. He's like John Hanna in the mummy movies he's the lead yes which is so

fun it's funny the mummy came out the same year though like another weird revival of horror that I was terrified of and people compared these two movies in reviews they were like yeah it's kind of like the mummy it's like a big dumb thing which is so weird it is amazing to read the reviews now

and they're like this Hollywood schlock and you're like god people would be so happy to get this from Hollywood these days like this movie would get seven Academy Award

nominations if it came out tomorrow probably truly like every below the line like you know craft would be nominated

for this film right but yeah you know I just think the witch scene is him going full tilt this is where I'm gonna do

my merchandise spotlight because of the witch action figure they made an action figure of the witch which was one of the worst business decisions of all time not a great idea

did they do the other Miranda Richardson character too absolutely not okay okay so this was a time when like you looked low rent

if you didn't have enough characters to fill out a line uh huh like now it's very much like if you have one cool enough characters to fill out a line. Like now it's very much like if you have one cool character, it's just the hero. You make that one figure and you just sell it. But back then it was like you look unimpressive if you don't have like a cast of visually appealing characters. So it's like Ichabod Crane comes with the bag, all the little doodads, right?

Okay, Headless Horseman comes with a walking head, comes with a skull you can put him on, right? Tree playset. There was a playset with the tree and the horse and everything that was like very epic at the time that one doesn't have heads the heads only came with a standalone horseman okay and it comes with the heads of the couple that he can hold in his hand right by the hair and then they were like fuck we need one more so they did the witch who's essentially just like a lump of like sort of like like muslin yeah she looks like an old tree. Like Yoda's cloak. Personified. But with the shawl over her

head and then she comes with like some bowls of shit. And then the thing was you could take the hood off and then she had the snake eyes. But was it one of those action things where you would squeeze her like arms? It was. She had a strand of hair because I owned this one. I was like, I better buy this before they sell out.

And then they existed on shelves for five years. They couldn't get rid of them. There was a strand of her hair that stuck out in the back, and you'd push it into her skull, and then the eyes and the tongue would come out. Did you own any other Sleepy Hollow action figures? I had Ichabod, and I weirdly never got the Horseman. Horseman's kind of the cool one. That was the cool one.

Yeah. Yeah. He's got knife teeth. I had the Ichabod and I weirdly never got the Horseman. Horseman's kind of the cool one. That was the cool one. Yeah. Yeah. But I had the Ichabod. Because I had like a whole like Tim Burton like he was so my guy at this time that I had like all my Tim Burton shit in my like front. I had so much Nightmare stuff. Yeah. And I had the Edward Scissorhands figure.

I had my Oyster Boy book. Oh yeah. Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy. And which they now then they made figures from that. They did. Yeah. And then in between there was like a Flash macro web series. They did like a cartoon show.

I remember that, yeah. That had all his regular voice people. Back when I had to dial up internet and had to wait an hour for every single one of those things to load. But it was Stain Boy who was like the hero. He was a little boy who can make stains of things. You guys are nerds. Yup. And his commissioner was like Glenn Shadix. Voice of things. You guys are nerds. Yup. And his commissioner

was like Glenn Shadix, voice of the mayor, Otho from Beetlejuice. And he was also in Planet of the Apes. And he would assign him a case and then it would be like, you have to go meet

Matchstick Girl. And then like Matchstick Girl would be like the new freak of the week. I definitely saw Nightmare Before Christmas in theaters. And I remember my dad beforehand being like,

so like this movie has a kind of an intense concept. Like I'm going to try and, you know, like the holidays are all towns. Like I remember, I think he had seen it to like get me ready for it. Yeah. My mom would not let me see it because she thought it was too spooky. And I loved it so much. Yeah. I was freaked out by the boogeyman being worms.

Prior to discovering Tim Burton, I was just all about Lucas Spielberg and Universal Monsters, I think. Okay. So I had those, and I didn't even really see the Universal Monsters movies. They were like these old library books

I'd get that just like- Had the stills. Yeah, exactly. So I had all of those. I had all those kinds of books, yeah. And so all of a sudden, one day my mom shows me this Newsweek article about Tim Burton

around the time Batman comes out. Or maybe after Batman. I can't remember what. In that era. After he hit it really big. And he just looked so cool. That was, yeah. And his look was so striking.

Yeah. So as an, I think, so I would have been eight at that point. And from that point forward, I was like, I want to be Tim Burton. Well, that's the thing. It's like for movie nerds, it's like he's such a good like starter kit for the notion of auteurism. And you get what a director is if you start getting into Tim Burton when you're like six. Because up until then, like I remember being so confused when my parents told me that directors didn't always write their own movies. Sure.

I was like, so what do they do if someone else wrote the story? Right. And they were like, they tell people where to stand. And I was like, what the fuck does that mean? And you watch Spielberg movies and you know how they make you feel. And you watch George Lucas movies and you're like, okay, Star Wars, that's an aesthetic. Then I'd remember like renting American graffiti and being like, this is people in cars. What is this?

But Burton movies like have a sensibility. They have a tone. They have thematic concerns that they're always coming back to. And then you look at a photo of Tim Burton and you're like, he looks like a Tim Burton movie. Sure. Literally looks like his movie. The whole thing. I get what he's bringing to the table.

He's perfect for a young film fan. Because his movies do all kind of have the same vibe. Right. That's what you can begin to understand. You dissect the frog. You understand what this guy's hand is doing in the process. Right. And then also the notion of if you hear an announcement, my dad would go like, oh, did you hear Tim Burton's

going to do Planet of the Apes now? You have an imagination in your head of what that's going to be. Exactly. As opposed to that guy who made that movie you liked

is going to adapt that book you like. And you're like, I hope it's good. You know? He has a template that you start applying these concepts to. And it's so consistent.

Who's going to play what? Exactly. You know? Then again, this is the same conversation we just had. It's what dooms him. Right.

Then the template, yeah, he can't stop putting the template. Then again, this is the same conversation. It's what dooms him. Right. Then the template. Yeah. He can't stop putting the template on everything. But this is the end of sort of like his miracle run decade. What do you think went wrong? Or went wrong is sort of, I mean, his movie's been funny. I thought about it because, you know, Planet of the Apes feels like, again, like I said earlier, that feels like that's what would have happened with Superman. It's like a movie he should not have said yes to whether it was he didn't have

a real take it just felt like they were like you must come up with something it's like we need a director for this you liked it and like he he you know that movie the trailer starts with the scarecrow that's about right he's like let's add scarecrows to it yeah and and then i think it was around the same period that nightmare before christ Christmas really had a renaissance and became a seasonal classic. Right. Like, prior to that point, like, I watched it every year, but it started to be released in theaters again every Halloween and Christmas. Like, I went to a Walgreens last night, and the amount of Nightmare Before Christmas shit they had at Walgreens. It's like, oh, because it's that time of the year.

Now it's like you have your seasonal Band-aids and there were Jack Skellington dog chew toys and it's on all the food and everything. Two and a half decades later, at your fucking pharmacy, there's so much nightmare shit. Where that used to be the back corner of a comic book store. Totally. That movie kind of dooms him

in a way, even though he didn't make it. His name's in it. Right. And then it becomes so merchandised and everything that it becomes like, oh, it's that fucking thing. I think that contributed to the weight of his own aesthetic that he felt. I mean, I would love to talk to him about it. It's like, so I'd love to just meet him because he still is a hero of mine. But I wonder what it's like to have those expectations when it's because it's not like

he's done that many different types of movies he has like one type of movie he makes yes and when he veers off of it a little bit it usually doesn't work

too well with like big eyes those are my two big theories one are one theory A is I think he sort of

gets happier after this movie okay once he gets with Helen Bonham Carter they have children right he starts seeming a lot more sort of content moves to london in interviews he seems a lot less torture

he's a lot funnier he's a lot lighter and he seems a lot less sort of like burdened by the how dare you burdened by the sort of like uh stress of the career and the expectations and everything he's just sort of like yeah i don't know this seems like fun it's worth doing and i think that becomes i mean his decision making process is like sure why not which is not a good way to maintain a sense of never consistency in a career or a voice the second thing is i do think as you said that every time he's tried to veer off 15 degrees it's so flatly rejected ignored it doesn't connect in the same mainstream way whatever it is i mean like ed wood was critically revered it was such a fucking flop right but that that's earlier but that movie's a masterpiece the other interesting thing is he but even sweeney todd like i think his career

would have gone in a different direction if Sweeney Todd had been more well received I think he would have maybe evolved a little more and I don't think it's surprising

that after Sweeney Todd he's like fuck it Alice in Wonderland you know let me do the thing I know I can get money to do they'll give me the toy box

I can do whatever wasn't Sweeney Todd pretty well received yeah it was well received and made money I mean it was I agree and it got. I mean, it was.

And it got Oscar nominations. That was a passion project that he'd been wanting to make for decades at that point. So he just was, like, he'd been ready to make that movie for so long. He was creatively spent after that movie. But the interesting thing is, like, aside from that, I mean, really, since Nightmare Before Christmas, and then you could kind of say with Corpse Bride and Frankenweenie, he's only processed other people's properties. He takes other properties and puts them through the Burton filter. He becomes a cover band.

Exactly. Dark Shadows. And he has not made an original Tim Burton film since the beginning of his career. Right. Now, my point of clarification, not to be a stickler about this, but with the Sweeney Todd thing is, there were two things. One is he had a lot of Oscar hype before it,

and then before it had been screened widely, he won Best Director from the National Board of Review. And I remember people going like, oh, fuck, is this a major awards player? And Big Fish had also been a thing where I think everyone was like, this will be his Oscar movie. Which does pretty well, but gets one Oscar nomination. So where I think everyone was like, this will be his Oscar movie. Which does pretty well, but gets one Oscar nomination.

So then I think that was seen as a disappointment in terms of him maybe trying to evolve. Because that movie takes place half in a totally real world. It's the only time he's ever shot normal people. The Billy Crudup half of the movie. And it did pretty well, but it was expensive and it didn't get any Oscar nominations aside from Elfman for score. Right. Which is weird.

It is weird. That was Elfman's first nomination ever. But Big Fish was a critically not very well received. Correct. Whereas like Sweeney Todd got, you know, people kind of liked it. But it didn't become a major Oscar play. And the other thing was Warner Brothers did that insane marketing campaign for it where they hid that it was a musical.

Yeah. They sold it more like Sleepy Hollow where it was like, this is a Johnny Depp murderer movie. And they didn't show him singing on camera. And the opening day of the movie was really fucking big. And then it dropped off like 60% on day two. It's like Johnny Depp walks into a close-up and starts singing. And people are like, what is this movie? But there were literally like,

there were write-ups of like people walking out the first time he sang and being like, what the fuck is this movie but there were literally like there were write ups of like people walking out the first time he sang and being like what the fuck is this the movie is all singing there's not a lot of

talking it's an opera like teenage boys who were like this is like a fucking bloody Johnny Depp movie it is

it's just one of those movies that did like almost 10 on opening day and ended up at 60. You know? Well, yeah. Well, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about that one.

But so I think like, you know, these are relative successes. They're not crazy, colossal failures. But for a guy like Burton, who when he's big, he's huge, I think feels dissuaded by not making a movie that goes over $100 million. All right. Let's wrap it up. The movie, Sleepy Hollow. So he starts to track the sort of bloodline,

the family deed, the next of kin, the will. Again, who cares? I mean, I can't deny that I don't really care. I love it because I love it's about shitty old people.

I love that. In theory, as an abstract. I don't really know how it all intersects. Exactly, the details because I think when he looks at the family tree

and he's like, aha, and I'm like, who is who again? All you need to know is that he gets it. I know. And I like details. Because I think when he looks at the family tree and he's like, aha, and I'm like, who is who again? All you need to know is that he gets it. I know. And I like that the movie

doesn't bog us down with too much explaining. And then you've got the, you know, the final twist, post-church, that it's all been Miranda Richardson,

who has been kind of underused up to this point. Right. Oddly using an American accent. Every time I watch it, I'm like, why didn't she do that? Like, these people just, they're still English.

America's very new. And this was the end of her big decade. Completely. I was like, when she showed up in Stronger, I was like, where has she been? Where the fuck has she been? Because she's always so good, and she was like running the table on the 90s. And in the 2000s, she gets really quiet.

Yeah, I mean, she does English TV and stuff, but it's true. She probably does theater. She does lots of theater. She's in Fred Claus and shit. She was in Rubicon, let's not forget. She's in fucking Fred Claus. She plays Paul Giamatti's wife. Written by Dan Fogelman.

Dan Fogelman's been on a tear today. Online, it's been crazy. Really? This is one of those episodes we're recording six months in advance. So on the record, what do we think Dan Fogelman's tweeting about when this episode releases in February? He claimed the reason this movie's getting bad reviews is that

white men don't like sentimental films, which is like a big reach, you know, in general. Also, white men, so fucking sentimental. Especially in this day and age. I love them. It's just that it was an odd play for him i guess uh anyway i also just think it's always a bad look when a filmmaker goes like the reason why people don't like my movie is because of this hang-up they have right yeah where it's like i don't know maybe don't fight

the critics on it just yeah the movie came out just stay off Twitter on opening day of your movie. Do you engage at all when you have a new film coming out? No, I don't even read reviews. I don't Google search anything. If I see the title in a magazine, I throw it away. I throw it out the window. I just have a zero engagement policy, which is good for my mental health.

Especially because you're a dude who came up through online film nerd spheres to understand how they talk about things. And I love film criticism, and it kind of breaks my heart that I can't engage with that part of the process of my own work, but it just is better not to. Yeah, and also the people who go on Twitter

and they're like, I'm only going to read the positive things. I'm just going to retweet everything anyone nice said about my movie. Then you look like an egomaniac if you're like ignoring. I just found it better not to. No, I think that's incredibly fine. Especially if you go down that fans not critics route. You know, it's so easy to get sucked into like people aren't getting it, but this guy does.

Right, or the opposite where you only retweet the good reviews because the fans are yelling at you. Or where you like try to show how magnanimous you are and retweet the negative reviews and say, are yelling at you. Or where you like try to show how magnanimous you are and retweet the negative reviews and say, you know what? He has a point.

It's lose-lose. No one should be unfair. I really learned my lesson here. Yeah. Put me in my place. So yeah, Miranda Richardson. I don't know.

She's a twin. She's a twin. One of her's the crone. I can't tell if she enjoyed being in this movie though or not. Like, I can't tell if she is being in this movie though or not. Like I can't tell if she is having fun

being the character who delivers that. I think she's having fun. That end monologue feels like she's really enjoying it. The key for it to me is the fact that she improvised that line, watch your heads, when they all walk into the window. Five comedy points. Yeah, I mean she plays a lot of villains. Yeah. You know in England

she is absolutely beloved, on top of her general success as a wonderful actress, for playing Queen Elizabeth in Blackadder, which is like this venerable sitcom, which she's really, really funny in. She kind of plays her as this like capricious, sort of like saucy, like, you know, maniac. I mean, like, she gets famous in Hollywood

for kind of over-the-top iciness. Yes, certainly. Yeah. But then she's so good in like Spider or even, I mean like she gets famous in Hollywood for kind of over the top iciness yes certainly yeah but then she's so good in like Spider or even Stronger where she has to play this really broad

like working class lady and in Atlantic City she plays like a Jennifer Tilly type and she like fucking kills it she's amazing in that way

she's so good and she was great in Stronger she's great in Stronger Stronger rules Stronger is so good so good one of the like best movies that no one talks about yeah it's a dual role she's great and stronger stronger rules stronger is so good so good one of the like

best movies that no one talks about yeah it's really great that scene outside the baseball stadium speaking of sentimental movies speaking of men accessing

their sentimental feelings which is what that's about and what that movie's about is they became this avatar of men being like you know what I feel sad too I mean I like the socks

but uh ew I can picture baseball. I mean, I like the socks, but, you know, I can pitch a baseball, but I like having tears. I love that movie so much. Stronger. Yeah. So,

I mean, this final section is they put together the mystery. You have the big sort of like, you know, villain monologue explaining how and why and all of that.

I like the cuts back to the things, the you've seen even just like like christian richie like the archers and it cuts to the archer it's like fireplace like it's really well done i just always like that device because it makes me feel like yeah you're putting together a movie even though like half those characters you haven't seen before right you haven't seen yes that's the thing without the shawl over her face you haven't seen the slave slave girl Sarah or whatever. Yeah. This is all getting dumped on you. And yes, some of the characters

she's talking about were corpses whose headless bodies you saw. That's it. Right. Right. But it's all fun stuff.

It feels like it clicks. Like it's like, I assume it all makes sense. It feels like it clicks and the last idea of Ichabod realizing like I just need to give the headless horseman

his own freedom. Yeah. Right. I gotta get that skull to that. And then that bloody kiss is like incredible. of Ichabod realizing like I just need to give the Headless Horseman his own freedom yeah right is so good gotta get that skull to that and then that bloody kiss is like incredible

is that that feels all Burton that was the most that's like the most noticeable CG in the movie too like when he's like his head's reclaimed crazy reassembling

it's like the little large Marge cameo he like drops below the frame and then pops back up in large Marge for a second yeah and then it's like just right on the cusp a second. Yeah. And then it's like

just right on the cusp of like being too much CG. Right. Like Stephen Sommers level, but he pulls it back. He pulls it back. And then he never pulls it back again.

It's a year before Hollow Man and it's the same sort of idea. Yeah. Like let's do bones, like muscles, right? Right. Like build it all out. He's got a venom tongue.

No, but you're right. This is essentially the last time he has CGI restraint. What's interesting is like I was reading about Sweeney Todd and he said his initial concept for that movie was to shoot it 100% George Lucas style on green screen with no sets.

Which it even is a lot of green screen. It does have a lot but it's still like more practical than Alice in Wonderland. It looks good. It's like 50-50 and it's well designed but there's like... What's the gangster New York guy? Who builds the sets Dante Spinotti

yeah there's a quote I read from him when they were like promoting the movie where he was like well I'm not really much of an action director

so it's good that I got them to cast Johnny because he's not really much of an action star this notion that if he got in someone like Brad Pitt

there might have been more expectations to have more heroic scenes. Instead of Ichabod getting knocked off the carriage by a train. But this carriage race is really fun. It doesn't overstay its welcome. It's kind of like a little mini Victorian version of

the Raiders of the Lost Ark. I think he didn't have Brad Pitt, but he had Ray Park and Nick Gillard. Is that his name? Nick Gilland? I think so. The fight choreographer from the prequels. Right.

Who's an amazing sword choreographer. And those fight scenes are great. Yeah. The earlier fight scene, too, with Casper Van Dien. Yeah, with the hooks. The sort of two-handed. Very clever. That's a fantastic fight. And the Hethlisaur's never stops being a really eerie piece of imagery.

Yeah. You never get over the fact that the guy's fighting and he doesn't have a head. He doesn't have a head. Right. He's got a big honking sword. Doesn't get old. Was never get over the fact that the guy's fighting and he doesn't have a head. He's got a big honking sword. Was his cape practical or was that CG? Nowadays that would definitely be CG, but I think it was practical. I think it was practical.

I think it's nice that once they have all the pieces together, they don't belabor it and it's like, he's going to throw the skull, he's going to turn back into Venom, then he's going to kiss Ren skull. He's going to turn back into venom. Then he's going to kiss Renner Richardson. You don't see the kiss coming. No, definitely not. That's what I love.

And then also, I mean, all the stuff with- I also love anytime the horse goes in the tree, there's like this sort of weird spurt of blood. I love it. Oh, just the way the tree parts and the heads kind of fall. It's kind of Cronenberg-y.

It's great. Yeah. The matter, like the pulpy matter that's just dripping with blood when he's like hacking away. when he-y. It's great. Yeah. The matter, like the pulpy matter that's just, you know, dripping with blood when he's like hacking away. That's the reveal

when he's hacking, right, and finds it. What's that tree, like 30 feet tall? Like it's such a crazy object. They get so much value out of that tree and like the poster

is just like the fucking tree. Yeah, man. But the final, you know, Miranda Richardson's hand being caught on the other side trying to like lure them in. Yeah. It's just like a fun touch. And then the movie just

gets out. Well, it takes you to New York. Tells them the Bronx is up and the battery's down. I feel like that's a Tom Stoppard line also. It's kind of an odd ending because you're like, now they just solve crimes in the winter? It's got that beautiful snowfall. In fact, for me watching that, I was like,

oh, the movie got my one other favorite thing, which is winter. It's got a beautiful snowfall in there. It's a great fall movie, and then it's like, after fall, what comes? Winter. But it feels like if this movie was made six years later, it would have ended with someone rushing up to him and being like, Mr. Crane, have you seen the headlines?

And then there would have been an Adventist song during the credits. Right, and it would have been like Santa Claus sneaking through chimneys, you know? Whatever case he has to crack now. So this movie's a big hit. Yeah, let's talk about the box office.

This movie made $101 million at the domestic box office, which is $183 million adjusted. Was it October 19th? November 19th. Thanksgiving weekend. It was that late. It was that late. I know, you would think this would be a Halloween movie. At least I got the number right.

And it opened up against the other big blockbuster of the fall. People thought, are they going to cannibalize each other? Because you can't release two big movies the same weekend. They both make about the same amount of money. Which is like, the number one makes $35. This made $30. World is not enough. The world is not enough.

People were surprised they got that close because of Sleepy Hollow being R and Bond being so beloved at the time. Yeah. I actually want to look at opening weekends. Like, was that a lot? That was more than GoldenEye or Tomorrow Never Dies. So it was like a perfectly good progression for the Brosnan-Bonds. World is not enough. A movie I have seen like so many times, even though it's not that good.

A movie I have never seen. Was that the one where they're like, Bond a movie I have never seen was that the one where they're like Bond's getting gritty or was that the next Brosnan one well the next Brosnan one is dying on the day which sort of has the superfluous like or the he's like in prison at the beginning right where like that is the least gritty it is because then he goes

surfing or whatever yeah and like the villain has a space laser and there's all the ice stuff Mr. Diamond Face I remember it being a big deal like we're bringing Bond down to Earth for this one. Whereas World is not enough. Down to Earth so he can fence Madonna. The World is not enough. Like, because Tomorrow Never Dies have been criticized for being too product placement-y

and, like, not having a solid villain or whatever. Right. And also Christmas comes early. You know, no, no. That's The World is not enough. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

No, but, like, this one is more of just, like, it's James Bond. He's going to go I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. No, but like this one is more of just like it's James Bond. He's going to go to various countries. Yeah. There's the villain is Robert Carlyle like big actor. It's like nuts and bolts

James Bond. Yeah, it's just like this is a James Bond movie. Yeah. You know, there's nothing too fancy about this movie. And Christmas comes around. And then you got

Denise Richards and Sophie Marceau and a little bit more M. Judi Dench has like stuff to do in that movie. She gets like captured. And that's the first Cleese one, right? It's the first Cleese one, right?

It's the first Cleese one. And they did not intend for Q to die so fast. Right. But the actor died. Right. So it's also like John Cleese is then

Because they were like let's get John Cleese here as insurance policy so we can get people used to him before. Right, right, right. What was his name? Desmond R.

Desmond something. Oh, Desmond Llewellyn. Desmond Llewellyn. If you're in Britain he's like one of the 20 most famous people of all time. They're justmond something. Desmond Llewellyn. If you're in Britain, he's like one of the 20 most famous people of all time. They're just like, of course, Desmond Llewellyn. He's like the Selena Gomez of the UK.

So fucking famous. And when he died, it was like a day of mourning. Q died! Because he was the only one who's in all the box. Right. People left their briefcases at his grave site. Sure. I had not looked at the box office. I was going to try to guess, but because I mistakenly like right much people left their briefcases at his gravesite sure so i thought i had like i had

not looked at the box office i was going to try to guess but because i mistakenly remembered it being october i'm just gonna i have no idea i think it's a halloween release i was like i was like eight-legged freaks is gonna be in there three kings was the week before and but i now i have no idea well now i just want to look up the weekend you're thinking of to see because you're another box office junkie right i? I'm actually not. Oh, really? Okay. I've always been intrigued by it. And from being a projectionist,

like in the 90s, I usually have a pretty good idea, like from like 97 to 2004. Right, which movies had audiences. Like when they opened. Oh, sure. But I don't really remember how well they did. My mom referred to it yesterday.

She's been listening to the podcast more, which is something I'm not happy about. Are you serious? Yeah. Hi, Mom. She's been listening to it a lot. Don't call her mom. That's my mother. Hi, Griffin's mom. Thank you. I forget her name. Mrs. Griffin's mom.

Okay. But she said, I love when you guys do the office mojo. Sure. And I said, what? And she went, that game where you guess the numbers, you know, the office mojo? Yeah, the office mojo. We just try to capture them. The office mojo. That sounds like a Mad TV parody where they put Austin Powers in the office mojo we just try to capture them Steve Carell magic that sounds like a mad TV parody

where they put Austin Powers in the office um number three number three so Swirls on Up is number one

Sleepy Hollow is number two number three was number one the week before it's an animated film the first in a long franchise

first in a long franchise 1999 uh it's not Toy Story 2. No. No, no, no. David Sims saw this in theaters.

Toy Story 2 came out the next weekend? I believe you're right. Yeah. Okay. No, no, no. Toy Story 2 comes out this weekend on one screen. Limited. That's right.

On screen. But it goes wide the next week. Correct. That's what I know. Okay. Okay. Okay. So it's an animated film.

Long running franchise. We're talking a 2D picture, I'd imagine. Okay. So it's an animated film. Long running franchise. We're talking a 2D picture, I'd imagine. It's a hand-drawner. It's based off a TV show. Yeah. I know what it is. It is Pokemon the first movie. That's right.

That's right. It's Pokemon the first movie. New versus new. Which I'm assuming, David, you were too old for Pokemon. I was too old for it. I had siblings who were into it. I'm the oldest of nine, so I feel like I got all of those things. None of my family ever really loved Pokemon that much, though.

They had a promotion for that movie opening weekend where they would give out the limited edition cards. Oh, yeah. Did you hoard a bunch of those? The projection booth was just full of those. Right, because that must have been worth its weight in gold. Any promotional item, they stored in the booth. So we just had all of those things. You had fucking Flubber watches and things.

Oh, totally. I had so much Flubber stuff. Flubber, I remember, had so much shit. See, I pulled that one for a reason, David. I had so much flubber stuff i remember had so much shit i had like these little changing buttons for a reason david i had so much flubber stuff flubber had so much shit i wasn't objecting to you bringing up flub why are you crying right now i'm telling you number four um is like yeah the kind of movie they don't make much anymore. Like an old-fashioned, R-rated kind of thriller. Oh, Flubber. Like star-driven thriller.

Okay. Kind of like a murder mystery. Was it Ashley Judd? No, but in that zone, it's a male lead, female second lead, and the female actress is sort of like, she's coming up. She's on the rise. She's going to be a star pretty much right now. Male star's older? Maybe a little older.

So they're kind of contemporaries. It's not the bone collector. It is the bone collector. Well done. I was thinking if she's a big star now, Angelina Jolie surpassed big star. That's true. This is her Oscar winning year she's gonna win an Oscar you know

in a few months right this was one of her first big like studio above the title yeah because she had been floating around like in uh you know very fire love is all there is or whatever but right with hearts or 99 is when she has Pushing Tin, Playing by Heart, Bone Collector, Girl Interrupted. Impressive. Then we came out in October. So that was like hanging around, right?

Bone Collector? Came out November 5th. Oh, okay. This is its third weekend. That's a pretty good hit. Denzel, of course, is the star.

Yeah, I've heard of him. Philip Noyce film. Right. You know, Philip Noyce is one of those guys. Like, he makes Hollywood movies. So she must have had

a good experience because then she must have brought him onto Salt at that point. Yeah, who is Salt? Who is Salt? The world will never know.

Who is Salt? I remember so many fucking late night hosts because she, at that moment, everyone decided, I don't know, David,

stop asking. He texts me like four o'clock in the morning every night asking who Salt is. Who is Salt? Sometimes just a picture of a salt shaker

with a question mark like seven question marks we just don't talk about salt enough yeah yeah because I never got to make my spinoff film

Pepper? yeah of course alright I felt I had to do it number five can I say the thing I remember oh sure

because she became like the hot person that year in the same way that like someone like Scarlett Johansson will be like the punchline if you have to like fill in the blank with someone that people find attractive. I remember so many fucking late night hosts

making like, she can collect my bone jokes. It was so like- It was a pun worthy title. And it was gross. Like it was gross when they made that pun because it was like collect your bone. Like a murder movie about some guy who's stealing

bone she's like in the tunnels like trying to solve that would be like every late night show oh it's now getting fired instantly instantly right right also like i don't want to hear leno invoke his hard penis it's the last image i want in my head you disgusting fucking denim wearing old man he wasn't that old uh by the the way, Jay Leno's our guest next week on the Planet of the Apes episode. Number five is a movie I bet, I think we've talked about it, that I bet you really loved.

I bet you thought this movie was real clever. Is it a dumb baby movie? No, no, no. Yeah, I thought it was really clever. Yeah. In a comedy way? Yeah, it's like a dark comedy. It's a dark, it's kind of twisted.

Ben was like, made like a disgusted fucking face, like he was a bad boy. Okay, it's a 1999 dark comedy. Is the director who mostly does comedies? Yeah. And where was this in their arc? This is like them working with a bigger budget for the first time. For the first time to make a big budget comedy. It's a star vehicle.

It's got a lot of stars in it. Ensemble cast, you say. A twisted picture from 1999. An ensemble cast. I feel like we talked about this movie. Is it gothic? Is it sort of like,

is it like a violent? It's got a fantasy element. It violent it's a violent but it's funny fantasy element comedy that i probably ate up with probably if you were allowed to see it you may not have been big no i probably or maybe you saw a video and it was very controversial you definitely had strong opinions and you would tell all your friends about how it changed. Right. How it really like opened your eyes. It wasn't Fight Club.

Oh, it's American Beauty. Nope. Nope. Nope. Both of those movies are hanging around, but no. Yeah. Because I don't know if you know this, but David Fincher movies are actually very funny if you know how to watch them.

Just to give you an idea, this movie is its second week. It's made $15 million. It's going to make $30 15 million dollars It's gonna make 30 Not a big hit No but it tripled it's budget Really what's the budget 10 million I can't believe you guys aren't getting it

Let me give you another clue I probably love that He's someone that I guess we could He's an auteur yeah it sounds right his fourth movie yeah yeah it's his fourth picture you're just drawing this out at this point i genuinely can't even think of what this would be i'm thinking of posters that had like a lot of people a lot of people the poster is a lot of people. And Ben knows that it's his fourth film. Yes. His first three left impressions.

Yes. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Did you like it? Oh. Did you think this movie was clever? Boy, did I love it. I thought it was so smart. People didn't get it.

And it was high art and low art. And it should have gotten every fucking Oscar nomination. And it's called Dogma. It's called Dogma. It's called Dogma. Kevin Smith's Dogma. I loved Dogma. That was the one I would go to the mat for hard. That was like the first time I ever got a screenplay in advance.

Like someone, like I found it on the internet. And I was like so pumped. So excited about that. I have not thought about it since. No. How do you? Yeah. I had the two disc DVD where the case looked like a Bible. Probably with like fucking

Mubi on it or some shit I wore that thing out right you know like that poster it's a lot of folks get touched by an angel and that movie had so much it wasn't the DVD it was the Drew Struzan cover that was for the special edition

these were cool posters the ones that had the stained glass effect were cool. And the DVD one is cool. But those were the British posters. God, well, you wouldn't have

a frame of reference even knowing that. The other thing about that movie was that like Disney wouldn't let Miramax release it. I know.

So it had such a reputation as like a bad boy movie. Totally, yeah. And then people were like this is like his breakthrough. He's delayed for a little while. He's growing up. He's taking on bigger themes. It's a, commercially

it was his highest grossing film and then he just went sideways forever. Pretty much. Yeah. He kind of retreats. Kevin Smith, I feel like the story with him is always like, anything he does that gets kind of a rocky, he like, then he'll be like, okay, well let me just give you Jay and Silent Bob bob again like that's what you want right like clerks too

like yeah we'll just we'll just go back to like the absolute basics it doesn't have to look good no one has to try very hard like it'll just be funny lots of dialogue that's what you want very interesting article to dig up from 1999 as we face the 21st century of cinema we asked 10 people who is the next Martin Scorsese? Who's going to be the defining director for the next like 30 years? And someone picks Kevin Smith and is very defensively like

hear me out, hear me out. I know he seems as far from Martin Scorsese but there's so much fucking ambition and dogma that you have to imagine this guy's going to keep on trying crazy shit. And maybe it won't work but he's going to be swinging big and then he just goes into such a comfort zone. Yeah, well, what are you going to imagine this guy's going to keep on trying crazy shit. And maybe it won't work, but he's going to be swinging big. And then he just goes into such a comfort zone.

Yeah. Well, what are you going to do? Do you know who Scorsese picked? Who? Wes Anderson. Cool. That was, they said, finally, we asked him, the man himself. And he said?

He picked Wes Anderson. Had Rushmore even come out at that point? I think it had just come out. Yes. So yeah, he saw that potential in Bottle Rocket. But he puts Bottle Rocket as his third of the 90s. He did that after Gene Siskel had died. He sat in with Ebert to do the 10 best films of the 90s.

And I think Bottle Rocket was his third. That's an early champion. Yeah, I think it was The Puppet Master, then Eyes Wide Shut, then Bottle Rocket maybe. And Thin Red Line was in the five. His number one is Horse Thief. Oh, really?

And his number two is The Thin Red Line. Okay. Then A Borrowed Life. I don't know what those movies are. No. Then Eyes Wide Shut, Bad Lieutenant,

Breaking the Waves, Bottle Rocket. Okay, Bottle Rocket. Crash, The Cronenberg. Yeah. Fargo, Malcolm X and Heat Tide. That's a weird list.

Sure. He's a wild guy. He's a wild guy. Wild and crazy guy. So we're done. We did Sleepy Hollow. We did Sleepy Hollow. We survived the hollow.

Heads rolled. David, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. It's been awesome. Thanks for liking our podcast. I saw Ghost Story. I loved it. I wanted to pitch.

The thing I noticed... Anytime we get a big Hollywood player in here, Ben wants to pitch them movies. I'm receptacle for pitches. I noticed no ghouls. Or goblins. Ooh, goblin story? There's room for the franchise to grow. That's what I was thinking.

It's an expansive story. You have a dark universe. We've created a dark universe. I should mention, though, since this is the Tim Burton podcast series, that the first frame of a ghost story is a reference to a deep cut Tim Burton joke. Okay. So the LLC that we formed for the film is Scared Sheetless LLC, which, as Burton Files will know,

is what he pitched to Warner Brothers when they wanted to change the title of Beetlejuice. And he did it in jest, and then they took him very seriously. They were like, no, that's exactly what happened. And I've always loved that story. I love Beetlejuice.

I looked at Ghost Story as a remake of Beetlejuice in many ways and wanted to just toast to that classic. That's why it's good. See, most filmmakers aren't smart enough to try to of Beetlejuice in many ways and wanted to just toast to that classic. That's why it's good. See, most filmmakers aren't smart enough to try to remake Beetlejuice. But every Beetlejuice remake is good. Sure. What are the others? Moonlight.

Okay. Moonlight, Moonlight, Moonlight. Any trip dick is a remake. I cannot keep this joke going. Well, thank you so much for being here. Old Man and the Gun will be available on digital platforms by the time this episode comes out six years from now. Yeah, it'll be the whatever format exists at that point in time.

I think Blu-rays will have gone the way of the Dodo. Right, it'll be on contact lens or whatever. Exactly. Or Apple Glass. We're recording this the night of your premiere. It's true. Oh, yeah. I walked by the Paris Theater earlier and saw them putting up the marque premiere. It's true. Oh, yeah. I walked by the Paris Theater earlier

and saw them putting up the marquee. That's cool. And I was like, I should take a photo of that. Sure. I did. And I was like, I should Instagram that.

I did not. Maybe one day. Not too late. Save it for Throwback Thursday. Have you done other New York premieres? Is this your first New York premiere? This is the first one. Wow.

Exciting. Yeah. I've only done one premiere. We did Pete's Dragon at the El Capitan naturally because it's a Disney movie the rest of them

have all just been classic film festival things have you done a tech rehearsal on Redford to make sure the program will boot up in time to be on the red carpet that's what I've got to

get out of here for okay cool well please watch David's movies thank you for being here not my movies I don't have any I mean I have a bunch

of blu-rays if you want to come over come over and hang out also didn't you direct Underworld Blood Wars I have a bunch of Blu-rays if you want to come over. Come over and hang out. Yeah. Also, didn't you direct Underworld Blood Wars? I did direct the Nutcracker of the Four Realms, as we all know. Well, you only did two of the realms, right? Yeah, right. Gumdrop and

Swan. I don't know. Let's do on the record since we're recording this so far in advance. I think by the time that movie comes out, it will have four more directors credited. Sure. If it came out. Right. Lassie Hallstrom. Sure.

Ida Lupino. That's my old joke. It seems like it's ripe for a last minute, this is going to be our streaming Christmas movie of 2021. Yes. Right. Or they have Feige take over it and reshoot it to work it into the MCU. We couldn't get it out of the vault.

What if that's what they say? It's just in the vault. It's still in there. We forgot the combination. Right. Sitting right next to Song of the South I swear it's there that movie looks bonkers

what if we do a miniseries and we only do one episode per realm so we like go back to the Star Wars days yeah Ben is saying let's get out of here

he's not angry Ben is saying drag this on keep talking about it enough Ben's taking a piece of taffy and he's pulling it? Ben's taking a piece of taffy and he's pulling it as far

and as wide as he can. Wow, Ben, you have a traffic light? Oh, great. You know, I get it. I get it. I know. You're saying slow down? All right, we're done.

We're done. That was just handed a death card. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. Thanks to Andrew Guto for our social media, Lane remember to rate, review, subscribe. Go to blankies.red.com for some real nerdy shit. Thanks to Andrew Guto for our social media, Lane Montgomery for our theme song,

Joe Bone and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Sure. And, as always, Check out our merch on TeePublic. Oh, check out our merch on TeePublic. New designs will be available by the time this comes out. Designs we probably haven't even designed yet. Sure.

On the record. We're still imagining them. From the twisted mind of Griffin and David, our boutique label. And as always, Ben literally looks like he wants to murder me right now. I'm going to cut your head off.