Blank Check with Griffin & David - Spirited Away with David Rees

Episode Date: September 29, 2019

Humorist, David Rees, returns to Blank Check discuss one of the greatest animated films of all time, Spirited Away. Together they examine dream logic, Shrek, David Rees presents an important review of Spirited Away from Nigel Andrews at the Financial Times and plenty more! 

Listen, Ku, I don't remember it, but my mom told me. Once when I was little, I fell into a podcast. They said they'd ended it and re-recorded things on top, but I just remembered. The podcast was called... Its name was the Kaku Podcast. Your real name is Kaku Podcast! Kaku Podcast? It's in the Kaku Podcast. Kaku Podcast?

Doing the river. I don't know. Okay. You'll find out at the end of this episode the adversity I had to overcome in order to start this podcast. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Now, we were talking about something very serious. Talking about Shrek. We were talking toons.

And, of course, we were contrasting Spirited Away to Shrek with our guest who has never seen Shrek no and I made a joke about how Shrek opens and you said that is not actually how Shrek starts is it and then I showed you the opening of Shrek and you are really now I am broken you are broken what did you think Shrek was

like you knew he was a big green guy ogre and that it's like a fairy tale world and that i knew that eddie murphy was in it it's donkey and um i assumed it was like probably kind of knowing and cynical in the way that all contemporary kids culture is which is so disgusting but i didn't know it was going to open with him literally like ripping a page out of a fairy tale book and wiping his butt with it. Right. And then

also flushing an outhouse toilets like okay I guess this is a fantasy world but whatever. Right. There's a flushing sound and he walks out of a wooden outhouse. I don't know. You're saying like. And then all star play. Right. Yeah. Right. And then a pop song plays... And then All Star played. Right. Yeah. Right.

And then a pop song plays. And it's already being played ironically, right? No. No, kind of. What's weird is... What year did it come out? 2000? 2001.

Okay. So this is two years after All Star comes out as the single from the Mystery Men soundtrack. That's right. It had been part of another movie. It's a song that originates in another movie. Right. It was sort of, the video for it has like clips from Mystery Men.

Right. And then two years later, it's like Mystery Men bombed, All Star was a hit. They're sort of taking a hit song two years late. Right. It has nothing to do with Shrek though. No, it's like if a-

I guess he's an all-star? The lyrics have no real relation. He's a star of his own movie. It's almost like if an animated film started with Shake It Off or I Really Really Like You Today. This was a legitimate hit song. But the other thing is that Rat Race

came out the same year, 2001. It ends with them arriving at a Smash Mouth concert and dancing to All-Star. What's Rat Race, another cartoon? No, it was a comedy with a big ensemble. It was sort of like Cannonball Run. It was like a loose, it's a mad, mad, mad world.

It was like Rowan Atkinson, Whoopi Goldberg. That was the idea. Yeah. They've all got to find the money. They're in a rat race around the country. It's a Fallen from Grace, Jerry Zucker. Yeah, it's Zucker, one of the three. But just the one Zucker.

And it's like John Cleese and Dave Thomas run a casino. And they offer like $100 million to the first person who can get to whatever the location is. Got it. And it's like Whoopi Goldberg, John Lovitz, Rowan Atkinson, Seth Green. John Cleese, Cuba Gooding Jr. Cuba Gooding Jr. The biggest comedy stars of 2001 Why wasn't this the hugest

Hit movie ever? They Sounds good I think it did okay actually I mean they really It's called Rat Race? Rat Race Never heard of it

John Cleese is like the evil Billionaire who's Organized the Rat Race Here they all are Yeah that's the poster In the poster The poster had this sort of Big heads

Big head Amy Smart Wow Amy Smart. Wow. Amy Smart. There's a lot of, because there's also like Breckin Mayer is in it, right? There's a lot of other people. Ostensibly the romantic lead.

It's kind of cheap. And it's also one of those things where you're like, it's a mad, mad, mad, mad world. Outside of the main cast, when they go to a cameo, you're like, holy shit. It's the Three Stooges. Sir John Gielgud. Right. And Taylor Swift. And the first on-screen pairing. In this, the biggest stars are the people who are the main characters.

When they go to a cameo, it's like Dean Cain. Yeah, or Smash Mouth. Right. Is that supposed to be like a big like aha moment? Right. It ends with Smash Mouth. Shrek starts with Smash Mouth. The point is, you were saying like, this is like everything I hate about children's films

today. I need to have the pop song and the cynical stuff. Shrek is the moment when all of that becomes like, oh, this is good. This can be taken seriously. Well, I always associated that with Aladdin, which I've also never seen because isn't Aladdin the one where Robin Williams is the genie and he's like, we'll turn to the camera and be like, I know you parents think this movie sucks. I do too.

Ha ha, wink wink, and then go back to the movie. But it's not like that. But Aladdin is like the seed being planted. It has the elements of that. Right. It's the first time that that's happening. Right. Katzenberg comes off of that and goes like, this is what we should be doing.

And there are all these stories. Stars above the title. Right. Like in a kid's cartoon. Right. We're going to put Mike Myers' name above the title. Right. Right. We're going to put Mike Myers' name above the title. Right. Right. But they're all the stories about like when they were doing Toy Story.

When they were like doing story reels on Toy Story that Katzenberg kept on pushing them to be like, the characters should like really be assholes. Like it should be really cynical and more pop culture references. Like he was taking all the wrong lessons from Aladdin and they almost shut down Toy Story. Because they were like, this is unwatchable. This is like a Todd Solon's movie. Right. Why is Woody – isn't he supposed to be the hero?

Like, why is he so mean? And all the directors at Disney were, like, fighting against him, like, pushing for that. And then he goes over to DreamWorks and he's like, I can do whatever the fuck I want. And Shrek is, like, the culmination moment. And it wins Best Animated Film, the first ever Best Animated Film at the Oscars. And it gets nominated for the Palme d'Or, and it is taken so seriously as a movie that then culture just completely warps around it.

Because Aladdin, like, those elements were popular, but they only... Aladdin is a stirring, old-fashioned adventure movie with songs that are beautiful and it looks nice. That's like 15% of the movie, because it's only this one character. And then Robin Williams is in there and he's not turning to the camera,

but he's doing like a Carson routine, but he's also lovable. It takes 40 minutes for him to enter. Then Shrek, everything is like fucked. No one's fucking lovable in Shrek. They're all jerks. But at the time, everyone loved it. Well, everyone loved it

because they were sick of Disney. It's 2001. The sort of Disney renaissance is kind of sputtering out. I see. It just made Tarzan. People are kind of like, we get this formula. We're bored of it. And Shrek's like, I get the formula too.

Ha ha ha. Right. All the sort of like Gen X-y, like Disney's actually like fucked. Like if you read the real stories, they're so dark. Right. If you read the real stories, they're so dark. That whole take had become so mainstream that any six-year-old at a mall could get what Shrek was hitting on. And then the weird thing is, for a generation, the versions, the parody versions of the fairy tale characters in Shrek canonically become those characters. There's a generation like my sister who didn't grow up watching the Disney films.

She grew up watching the fucking like- She's watching the ironic commentary on the source code. Narcoleptic Snow White. And that is the new canon, the new source code. Creepy like fucking Seven Dwarves and Pinocchio. Glassy CG. Who's a pathological liar and like all these things. Fairy tales, man. They're just like, you know, that like all these things. Right. Fairy tales, man.

They're just like, you know, that's all made up. Those are fairy tales, man. Right, right, right. The real world, like we're in Bosnia. What's going on there?

Yeah. Why doesn't Aladdin talk about Bosnia? But as you said, the movie was nominated for Best Screenplay. Yeah, people were like, oh, this is fantastic.

They were like, animation has finally become adult. Like finally, there's like a serious animated film. Also, people thought it looked good and now you watch it and you're like, oh has finally become adult. Like, finally there's, like, a serious animated film. Also, people thought it looked good, and now you watch it, and you're like, whoa, this looks dreadful. It looks terrible.

Yeah, right. It was, like, them trying to go photorealistic. That's the weird thing. Yeah, she looks like a little person. Right. The humans. And Shrek's got, like, stubble and shit. Like, they were, like, trying to get all, like, the gross details down.

But another. I mean, like, the villain looks, like, creepy. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Do you think it was good for the culture, Shrek?

I think it was terrible for the culture. Really? Yeah. I think it actually caused— Because of the kind of cynicism or the— Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is the kind of stuff I talk about all the time.

Like— Yes. Danny McBride is why Trump got elected. South Park is why Trump got elected. Shrek is, like, why Trump got elected. South Park is why Trump got elected. Shrek is why Trump got elected. You keep standing on that street corner. It's a lonely street corner, but someday people will stop

and stop honking their horns and get out and take my pamphlets. For a second, I processed the first thing you said as Danny Boyle is why Trump got elected. He probably is too. I was trying to do the calculus. What's David's beef with Steve Jobs? Yeah.

No, I think Shrek is really bad for the culture. And I think a thing that it did, which I resent, is people then start to feel like they're hip to the things that

stories are doing. You know? Like, do you notice this is like a trope? Like, this always happens. This is something I want to. And then we get like Deadpool. Or whatever. You know, it just keeps going further down. Which is another one of my little hobby horses that I'll delight you with later.

Yeah. Which is about people being clued into like story structure and stuff. That's what. I think all this stuff is keyed. Which is like, storytelling tropes existed because they were field tested for centuries and we figured out

these were the most effective ways to tell emotional stories and now I feel like people are scared off of doing functional storytelling because they're like, oh, but this is like that cliche.

Yeah, but I do think sincerity is now kind of back. It's coming back. You know, there's two heads to the dragon now. But I do think, I think that's a problem is that like,. There's two heads to the dragon now. But I do think

that's a problem is that everyone thinks they're smart to how stories work. Like plot hole culture. Oh yeah, that's true. Like all the sort of honest trailers

or everything wrong with X movie in 10 seconds. I think I'm talking more about some... Iron Man get there with like... He can't get there.

But I also think there's this like... I think it's talking more about some- Iron Man get there. There's that, but I also think there's this- I think it's part of a broader phenomenon, which I associate with the popularity of Entertainment Weekly magazine, which was kind of like now everybody understands what a tentpole movie is and wants to talk about the opening box office, and everyone is like an industry insider. I'm not saying like that knowledge should be held by a secret cabal of power players.

We're not worthy of it. Why are you handing me a list of power players underlines? But I think the other side of that is this idea of people being like, oh my God, Pixar really knows story. Like they can really crack a story. The structure of this Pixar movie is so amazing. But they wouldn't be able to, like, expand on that. Well, right, exactly.

And I don't know. I mean, I guess it's not Pixar's fault. And it's the knowingness. It's all part of a culture I guess of of knowingness I don't know how else to say it whether it's a movie that is being self-referential about its source material or whether it's people not responding to the story as a

story but responding to it as a story as an instantiation of a structure that can be built more or less elegantly. I think that is also the success of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Really?

It's a thing that's like letting the audience in on the act of franchise building that they're doing. Right. They're like your investors with us in this like ongoing narrative. Right. And so much of like the Marvel culture is people speculating about what's going to happen in the next movie and then going and having their theories confirmed or denied and then walking out of that and being like, wow, but look at what it sets up going forward. Right. Like there are like two Marvel movies that end with any sense of finality because most Marvel movies end with a scene that negates whatever the emotional ending of the movie was. Which I remember when they put like a secret scene at the end of the trailer.

Sometimes that, sometimes it's in the movie was. Which I know, and they put like a secret scene at the end of the trailer. Sometimes that, sometimes it's in the movie. Sometimes it's literally the ending where it's like whatever sense of emotional closure, narrative closure we came to on this two-hour narrative is upended by

needing to point your head towards what's happening next so you can start speculating and the idea of how they're growing everything out and the fact that like everyone knows

how many movies Marvel actors have left on their contract. Things like that where they're like, yeah, it's weird that she died, but I know that she's optioned for a 2021 prequel. David and I are people who obviously were forged in the fires of knowing these things. Right. And I understand the appeal of knowing it because it's fun because then you feel like you are on the inside. Right.

You have inside information or it's kind of like I can see the strings of the puppets, you know, like. But I like was obsessed with trying to figure this stuff out because I wanted to be making this stuff. And David was obsessed with trying to figure this stuff out because he wanted to like

be critically like analyzing this stuff. I guess so, yeah. And it's weird that like people who are like, you know, I'm like, I'm trying to think of any job and then I'm getting caught in the web of being like, you know, I'm like, I'm trying to think of any job and then I'm getting caught in the web of being like, will any job I say now sound

backhanded, you know? But like someone who's like an... Brain surgeon. Brain surgeon. The world's greatest brain surgeon. The world's greatest brain surgeon also being like, well, they're definitely killing Chris Evans off in this movie because I heard he's fulfilled his six movie contract. Right. Like, that's weird that he feels like he needs to know

that. It is weird that Brent Carson was a brain surgeon who was good at his job. He was incredibly good at his job. He was like really good at it. He was so good that Cuba Gooding Jr. played him. Yeah. Cuba Gooding Jr. got to play him. A thing we can only aspire to. But you know what Hayao Miyazaki would say to this generation? This is

all kind of relevant. Do you know what he would say? Oh absolutely. You need to get a job and scrub some floors. That'll build your character. I just think it's fascinating that Shrek and Spirited Away, the movie that we're talking about today, come out in the same year.

Spirited Away is released in the United States a year later. They are both 2001 releases. But in America, it wins the second ever Best Animated Oscar. Shrek won the first. second ever Best Animated Oscar. Shrek won the first.

And when Best Animated feature was established, people were like, this is the Pixar category. Pixar movies have become respected enough. They will surely dominate. Right. And in fact, the first two years, it's DreamWorks. The first year, Shrek beats Monsters, Inc. Because Monsters, Inc. was sort of, I guess, seen as like, oh, well, that's like a soft Pixar movie. And Shrek is here to tear up the system. Yeah, Monst system yeah monsters ink is like a pleasant like but obviously a very light it's not a serious film right and now like monsters ink is like a paragon of

storytelling uh-huh and uh shrek no one likes like even the kids who grew up with shrek now just make shrek dank memes yeah i mean it doesn't help that they made like four more Shreks. Shrek has not aged well. Shrek has aged very badly. I don't think there are like parents showing their kids Shrek. The bell of the ball is no longer. Turned into a pumpkin. That sounds like a joke Shrek would make. Really?

Fuck my life. So I've even through osmosis been influenced by Shrek. Am I incorrect in thinking that in Shrek, they turn an onion into a carriage? That sounds right. There's some joke about onions. A lot of jokes. Ogres are like onions. They have layers. And this is a podcast, of course,

about filmography. It's directors who have massive success early on in their career and give a series of blank checks and make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Our producer is tilting his head back and looking at the ceiling as if to say, what am I doing here? It's called Blank Check. Griffin, David, I'm Griffin.

Hi, I'm David. Sometimes those checks bear and sometimes they bounce baby. There's a mini-series on the phones at Hayao Miyazaki. It's called Howl's Moving Podcast. That's right. And our guest today, a returning guest, long-time aspirational returning guest, David Rees. Hi, thanks for having me back. Excited to be here. Now, we wanted you on the

show when we started the show, and you said, I'll come on if you talk about AI. And it was one of the reasons we decided to do Late Period Spielberg. That's right. Because we were like, we can get Rees on the show. And then very shortly after that, we'd like, we'd love to have you back. And you were like, I'd come on to talk about Miami Vice or Spirited Away. and it's one of the reasons we did michael mann

miyazaki back to back because we were like we'll get him on one of them yeah here i am here you are wait you don't seem excited i'm just bummed about the miami vice one man i was so amped uh i'll let it go i already yelled at you at a dinner party about it you've yelled at me multiple multiple dinner parties. Anyway. You're here for the... I brought my special folder. He's got a folder.

He's got a folder. You're here to talk about what might be the best movie ever made. Well, I'm so excited now to hear you say that. I got a little goosebumps on my arm because I'm... Every time I watch it, I'm like... Really? I'm kind of like, well, I mean, I don't know that you could do something better than this. I'm sure you don't agree with me completely.

Well, no, I was going to say, so I saw this movie. Griffin's more of a neophyte to Miyazaki is the sort of arc of this. This is my exposure therapy, this miniseries. I had been shown Totoro when I was a child. Didn't get it. And didn't try to engage with the other Miyazaki movies. And then when this came out in the States, it was such a big sensation that I was like, gotta see it.

And I was also an Oscar junkie at that point. I think that unified David and I, that we were 13-year-old Oscars. Industry insiders reading Entertainment Weekly magazine. Right, complaining about the fact. Baphobio for Miyazaki's latest tentpole. Look, we were real insiders, and we hate the fact that everyone's an insider now. I know.

God, everyone's trying to tell me how Oscar season works. I'm like, I've been... What did the Star Wars guys say? I've been working this straight... I've been busting my ass. Star Wars five years. Yeah. But saw this when it came out in the States, the dub version, and went, yeah,

I just totally don't get this. I was 14 at the time maybe 13 and i was really you were that yeah okay 13 comes out of two yeah i was 13 and i was like don't don't get this uh-huh and just don't get it in a bad way i guess you're saying yeah i was like i don't understand what people are connecting to you're not like i don't understand and then it's so wonderful i feel overwhelmed no i was like i don't understand and then it's so wonderful I feel overwhelmed. No, I was like, I don't understand what the thing is.

Right, yeah. And clearly I'm in the minority. I have a lot of the same, I mean, I saw it as a full adult and I also, but, well, we'll get into it.

We'll get into it. Right, but so, this may be me being like, I want to watch all of these and see if I can crack this. Right, yeah. And it's all sort of been building up to this from being like, can want to watch all of these and see if I can crack this. And it's all sort of been building up to this one, being like, can I revisit this movie for the first time in

almost 20 years? And make sense of it. So you haven't seen it since you saw it in... O2. Wow. Yeah. And I saw it dubbed, and I watched it subtitled last night. And I was watching it, and I was like, this is kind of just a completely undeniably powerful object.

Yeah. Like I was kind of stunned that there was ever a time where I wasn't connecting with it. Like even if this isn't my favorite movie and I wouldn't put it on my personal top ten greatest films of all time list. Certainly would. I was like watching it. There's no question. I was like, this is like the Sistine Chapel or something. This is like some undeniable accomplishment in humanity.

Right. I fully came to the thing. Right, right, right. Is now the time? Take it out. Okay. He's opened the folder. He has a clipping.

A yellow piece of newspaper. Well, it's yellow because it's the financial times. It's a salmon colored. It's always been this color. So he's got a loxed piece of newspaper. The reason that I really wanted to do Spirited Away is because it is, I think, undeniably the work of a total genius. Even if it's somewhat inaccessible for cultural reasons or psychological reasons or whatever. I agree fully. But for me, I think the thing that I've thought about almost as much as I've thought about Spirited Away is a review of Spirited Away that I read and then clipped, as you can see from the Financial Times, September 2003.

And by the way, when we were recording our AI episode, you invoked this. I did? Did you? I don't remember. I'm not on mic, but it was either before or after recording. And you said, do you guys remember that review? So this is stuck in your head. Yeah. So here's some context. When Spirited Away came out, I was at the time a political cartoonist, and I had all these file folders where I would keep track of, like,

Afghan atrocities, Iraqi atrocities, just like all these horrible file folders that were depressing to look at. And then I had this other file folder I just called Great Writing, and there was just stuff in here that I really enjoyed. Like, this is a list of all of cool Keith's personas. That's cool. Dr. Octagon fly,

Ricky, the wine taster, Mr. Gerbic. It always just made me happy to have this. And then this is a, this is an academic article written by my godfather called treatment of hernia in the later middle ages,

surgical correction and social construction. My godfather is Treatment of Hernia in the Later Middle Ages, Surgical Correction and Social Construction. My godfather is a historian of medicine. This is a very intense article about how they performed hernias in the 1300s. But it's well written? And I have this invoice for these incredibly dangerous magnets that I bought that almost tore my marriage apart.

Like through magnet force? Like physically? There were these magnets that were called Gauss-Boy super magnets. There were these magnets that were so powerful, they were dangerous. I could not believe I was legally allowed to order these magnets. Because, I mean, they could go through, you had to keep them away from credit cards and pacemakers. They were so powerful. And one time I was doing what you're not supposed to do, which is like similar polarities.

But it flipped around and part of the magnet flew. A shard of the magnet flew across the kitchen and almost took out my ex-wife's eye. Do you mind? I won't say it on mic. Can I look at the invoice? I'm curious. You saying that you shouldn't have been able to buy these, I'm curious. Wow.

That is cheap. Can I see? And you got a discount. You got a price break discount. I can't believe something this dangerous could cost this little money. Right. Even in 2002 or whatever.

We will not say how little I thought. You still lived down there. Was it nice down there? It was a time of transition down there. I was going to say. Yeah, it was a time of transition. I bet you it was really cheap to live down there back then. Cheaper.

I don't know. I will say I'll probably never live in as nice an apartment as I lived in down there. Wow. I will say, too, I mean, David had primed me with live down there. I was not expecting this far down and we will not say how far down you live. It was pretty far down, man.

Pretty far down. These days people live down there. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Back then it was like real urban pioneers living down there. Okay, anyway, Financial Times,

Spirited Away Review. Okay. The author? Is Nigel Andrews, who I think is still the, in fact, I believe you're right. He is because I have since been in touch with him in anticipation of this

podcast. He's 72 years old. Yeah. He's, he's sort of emeritus. Yeah, yeah, totally,

totally. So I, I love this review. I'm not going to read the entire review, but you're going to have to indulge me and let me read certain sections of this. And the first thing I noticed, I can't remember if I read this

review before or after I saw Spirited Away. Were you a frequent reader of the Financial Times? Oh, well, I was a political cartoonist. I was a subscriber. I subscribed to the Financial Times and the New York Times and 100 million policy journals. And I liked Nigel Andrews'

reviews. He reviewed a lot of international movies and stuff. Right, absolutely. Great critic. So the thing to know about this review and I liked Nigel Andrews reviews. Like he reviewed a lot of international movies and stuff, you know? Anyway, sure. Great credit. So the thing to know about this review is that Nigel Andrews grades movies on a star system, one through five stars.

And the first thing that I noticed about this review was it's six stars. He broke his own star system. So when I first picked it up, I was like, press a printing error. Like it was six stars. He broke his own star system. So when I first picked it up, I was like, that's a printing error. Like, with six stars, Mr. Andrews only goes to five stars. First sentence of his review, yes, that's right, six stars.

So he's like, I know, get ready. David is too flexing. I know, exactly. This review gets me so fucking amped. Okay, listen to this. This is when it's too flexing. I know, exactly. This review gets me so fucking amped. Okay, listen to this. This is when it's like, oh shit. Oh shit.

Somebody liked a movie. My adrenaline is really high right now. Totally, totally. Yes, that's right. Six stars. Exception must be made for the exceptional. Wow. Spirited Away is a feast of wonderment, a movie classic, and a joy that will enrich your existence until you too are spirited away.

Rush now while life lasts. It is pretty crazy to say, like, not only is this a great movie that you should see, but this might be a thing you remember until you die. Which you will. Oh, yeah. But more importantly, you do not want to risk dying before you see this film. Totally. Do not leave.

Exactly. Death is inevitable. Seeing Spirited Away is up to you. I can't imagine anyone who's like, see Shrek now while life lasts. You know what I mean? But for Spirited Away, it's like, this is part of the core curriculum, y'all.

You might get hit by a bus. Here, I think, yeah, here's I think this is the core of the entire review. He's summarizing everything and putting it in the context of Princess Mononoke and all this stuff. What is the film about? It's about 122

minutes and 12 billion years 10 comedy points it sums up all existence and gives us a mythology that's good for every society amoebal animal or human that ever lived and then the other thing he says is uh when he's talking about the final act of the of the film i love this he says miyazaki supplies a coda really a whole last act that's so ravishing and imaginative that keats and lee we want to give up and expire on the spot he wanted this movie to kill him yes do you know what i mean that thing of like i don't think i can do better than this like maybe this should be the moment well right i think that's why he gave it six out of five stars. And the reason that I've

always found this review so exciting and also moving is, I think this is a record of someone having an encounter with the sublime. Yes. Right. Which I think this movie, even like, there's a lot about this movie I don't

understand, and there's a lot about this movie that's opaque to me, but I understand how someone could watch this movie and just feel like this is on a whole different level. You know, there's something about it that is just, I don't know if it's the dream logic or just some of those incredible images, you know, but it's just like, this is six out of five stars. Yeah, I also think the key difference is I have had encounters with the Sublime that I completely understand would not connect for most people.

Right. But I watched Spirited Away and I'm like, this movie is capturing the Sublime for two hours. Yeah, yeah. Even if I am not as in on it as perhaps Nigel is. Right. Which, let me say, I think this movie is great. I think it's a masterpiece. I love it.

I feel like I need to watch it eight more times. It was weird to me not having seen it since 2002. When I would run it in my head, I'd be like, I barely remember any of that movie. And as I watched it, everything was there. You're like, oh, I do actually remember this. Like, every element, suddenly I was like, wait, I know the score. I know the images.

Yeah, yeah, pretty much the greatest score. The score is pretty incredible. Yeah. But I was like, I had no sort of replay, recall in my head before rewatching it. And it all unfolded like this experience of I feel like very often I wake up and I don't remember my own dreams. Right. And then something happens over the course of the day. And you go back.

Yeah, totally. And suddenly the entire dream comes flooding back to me, and it's very emotionally overwhelming. I'm like, right, in my dream someone held my hand. And now that someone has held my hand in real life, I'm remembering this dream where I was in the fires of hell. In your hand hell. Sorry, retired bit.

Whatever the thing is, right? And watching this felt like that where I'm like emotionally overwhelmed with the idea of this thing that was sort of like buried deep in my unconscious, which I had not connected with before. Right. Had no emotional connection to. The last time I saw it, now suddenly having this like tremendous weight and feeling like it was like this unspoken thing that had been laying dormant. I think that's why this movie is so powerful. And I think, and I mean, I should preface all this by saying like, I don't know enough about Japanese culture to really understand everything that's going on in this movie.

But we can talk about that in a minute. But what I wanted to say was, I think one of the reasons this movie is so powerful is because it always does, at least to me, feel a little bit beyond my kin, so to speak. There's always a reaching quality. And so when you come back to it, it does have that same kind of strange, surreal authority that a dream can have over you, which is, again, almost like the same notion of the sublime. This is just a little beyond what you'll ever be able to understand. And when you watch it again, it's like, oh, my God, I'm back in that dream space.

You know what I mean? I think that's what I think that's why the movie can be so powerful. Yeah, I was thinking while watching this last night, not not to get to like college dorm room philosophical, but it is this thing I love about movies that they are these fixed objects. Right. And that like we come to them at different points in our lives with different things. philosophical, but it is this thing I love about movies that they are these fixed objects. And that like we come to them at different points in our lives with different things. And they're the movies obviously that you like rewatch more, that you think about more, that are your favorites, that you connected with the first time. It may be on further viewings like, oh, well now I have a better understanding of this or I noticed this.

Right. But things like this where it's like, you you know you watch it like years apart and you've changed or your understanding of the world has changed and some movies like don't benefit from that but some movies remain these fixed objects where like because of how sort of elusive they are wherever you are in your life wherever the world is at that moment you're going to be able to bring something new to it, and it's going to unlock new stuff for you. Right, and that's probably, in the end,

the difference between a movie like this and a movie like Shrek, and that's probably why Shrek is not aging well. Even though, objectively, they're equally good because they both won Best Animated Feature. Right, back to back. But this also won the Berlin Film Festival and the Golden Bear after its release.

Wow. Which is hard to, you know, come out in Japan. Yeah. Then it played at the Berlin Film Festival. It won the festival. Right. Then it comes out in America. So it did that.

Yeah. And also it was the highest grossing and remains the highest grossing film in Japanese history. I think, isn't Your Name? Your Name got close, but I think it's number two. Oh, really? Yeah. I feel like Your Name surpassed it, which is another incredible.

Your Name, I feel like is, it's easier to wrap your head around, even though it's pretty trippy. It is trippy. But it's more like. But Spirited Away is a film that you can think about forever. Right. Well, I think there's that.

And every time I see it, I have new understanding about the world that this is. Your name you can solve. Right. I think it's the difference. I think all interesting movies are either puzzles or dreams. And your name is a puzzle. That's an incredible line. It's true.

And Spirited Away is a dream. Yes. Right? Yes. Yes. 100%. And that's why you'll be able to think about it, which I think is what Nigel Andrews is getting at in this amazing review,

where he's like, first of all, see this movie while life lasts. Second of all, you will want to die because it's so sublime. Yeah. And third of all, it is about 12 billion years in all, every conceivable society and the sum of all existence ever. Yeah. It's inexhaustible. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. I agree. Yeah. It is that thing. I love dreams, but that – when you do remember a dream vividly, that sense of like I'm trying to pull apart why these elements came together. Right. Like, why did my brain construct this?

Yeah. And why did I react to it this way? And the best movies, I think, do have that kind of quality where they can be a dream and a puzzle at the same time, which I think this movie weirdly does. Like, it's more a dream than a puzzle, you know? Right, yeah.

But you're trying to figure out why it has that sort of impact that it does and it's playing in a zone of like it's it's a very like alice in wonderland style story you know it's a sort of story structure alice in wonderland a little bit of pinocchio in there yes yes the sort of the kid goes on the magical journey that may or may not be a dream and seems to reflect their internal life. But it's also about that penumbra between being a kid and being a grown-up where you can accept this world. Liminal states, the best kind of states. it like and to grow up and like all the fears of being boring and being you know set in your ways like you know and being bourgeois like basically right that are going to come with being a grown-up

you know and uh like all you know but like whereas disney movies are often about like childlike innocence right fantasy world hold on to to that forever. This is about a fantasy world that still requires you to build your character and work and be part of a collective and a society where there are rules and it's often incredibly unfair or frightening. You know what I mean? The world of adulthood.

As with every Miyazaki movie, there are no out-and-out villains, particularly. Yubaba is not a villain. Well, it's... I mean, that's another... She's a boss. She has to deal with being a boss.

Right, but at the end, she's like Chihiro's waving goodbye to Yubaba along with everybody else. 100%. It's like, yeah. Well, and also at the end, Yubaba does this thing that seems cruel, like I will test you. You have to pass my test.

And I think that the dub ignores this. But in the original version, she's like, you know, the baby's like, you can't do this. This is mean. Like, let her go. And Yubaba's like, these are the rules. I have to give her a test. It's in the contract. Yeah.

Like, the only way she gets her name back is if she passes the test. And it's like Yubaba's being like, she has to have grown up like a little bit. Right. If this place hasn't changed her, she's stuck here. You know, like,

you know, she's only allowed to be free if she realizes something about herself, just like Paku. Right. Right. And so like, it's not like Yubaba's like, I'm doing this because I'm embittered and mean.

Right. Right. I'm doing it because I'm in charge of this thing. Right. I know you're the one who usually reads the Miyazaki quotes. No, read the Miyazaki quotes. But there were a lot of interesting ones here in the Wikipedia, which I'm sure are also in your mystical leather-bound book. It's fine.

But it said, I created a heroine who is an ordinary girl, someone with whom the audience can sympathize. It's not a story in which the characters grow up, but a story in which they draw on something already inside them, brought out by the particular circumstances. Like, that's a really interesting thing about the movie. Sure. Is that it's not like she sort of grows. It's that she sort of comes to a greater sense of understanding with who she is. Sure.

You know? And is going to be. Yeah. How the world is going to work for her and for everybody. And she's also in a context in the bathhouse and dealing with particular circumstances that are, I would say, simultaneously allowing and demanding more of her. Yes. I would say simultaneously allowing and demanding more of her. Yes.

Whereas when we, when we meet your hero in the backseat of the car, she's with these kind of like pretty lame parents. Parents are kind of lame, distracted, kind of unresponsive, but like, she's not a bad girl. She's just kind of like,

uh, you know, a little whiny and sort of like, what do I get? Like, you know, a little demanding, but what I, what I wonder with the, one of the 10 billion things I love? Like, you know, a little demanding. But what I wonder

with one of the 10 billion things I love about this movie is that she is not some special creature who is selected for the magic world because of her specialness. She's not Harry Potter.

She doesn't arrive in the spirit land and they're like, it's you, the one who's been foretold. We've been waiting for you. She arrives and they're like, well, you can scrub floors

if you want. And also you smell bad. And also you stink and you're skinny and small. You seem pretty useless. Like, honestly. And it also is a movie where unlike those other types of narratives like Wizard of Oz or Alice in Wonderland or whatever. There's not the moment like things get fantastical while she's still with her parents and awake. There is no moment

where she falls asleep where you can go, well, maybe that's the deniability point. Right. Or there's no moment where she falls down a hole and you're like,

well, now who knows what happened? She conked her head. Yeah. If they go into a magical portal, you know, they go into the mysterious tunnel. Right. But she does it with her parents.

Right. And her parents are like, oh yeah, this is like some old amusement park. Like,'s what this must be i think the opening of this movie is so unsettling and one thing that i was it's very frightening this is the i couldn't show this movie to a little kid i think i think it's a little too intense i think so the the opening what happens right it's that whole concept well there's that but i was thinking something a really specific moment that i had forgotten it's kind of like what you're talking about when you

see something again and you have like, I forgot about that. It's a really quick moment, but it's before they've even reached the tunnel and there's the breeze. Are you talking about the breeze? I'm talking about when her father's on the dirt road and he's going fast and they pass. He brags about his four-wheel drive. Oh, I know what you're talking about.

They pass a stone sculpture with a face on it. And it's CG, so it stylistically looks different. It's smoother, and you track her turning her head, I think, to watch it as it passes. And it's moving at a very different speed. Yeah, there's something so portentous about that moment. So it's right. It's not like the tornado picked the house up and then flew it away, and then everything was different.

It is more, it's like more gradual. What you're talking about though is, so I saw this film in theaters in London, England. Camden Town Odeon. Grew up in England. Why? Because was it released earlier there? Did it get on a plane in order to see it earlier? I'm pretty sure it was released later.

Nigel Smith's review you say is from 2003. So had you missed it? September 2003. Yeah, I think it came out a lot later. Nigel Smith's review, you say, is from 2003. So had you missed it? September 2003. Yeah, I think it came out a lot later. What were you saying? So had you missed it in theaters in the United States? No, I grew up in England. I was a high schooler.

You knew about this? Is this the new bit that Ben knows? I feel like it's come up. I'm like, remember it. Not on this podcast. No, duh. What, on Night Cheese? No, no. It's come up before like, remember it. Not on this podcast. No, duh. What, on Night Cheese? No, no.

It's come up before. It has not come up on this podcast. I'm pretty sure. This is just like revisiting a favorite dream. It's like, oh my God, I'm back in my dream world. It comes back to you. And I remember not knowing what I was in for. I'd never seen a Miyazaki movie before.

I was aware of him. I was aware of Mononoke, which had had a release here. I was aware that he was this respected creature. And then that moment where you see, I'm like, oh. It sent a little chill up my spine. Yeah, it's really unsettling. Wait, so that's what's going to happen here?

I think I expected probably just something more bonkers, right? Something like trippy, quote unquote. What an American remake of Alice in Wonderland might be like, directed by someone like Tim Burton. Sure. Like what an American remake of Alice in Wonderland might be like directed by someone like Tim Burton. Sure. Twisted.

I also like my I feel like weirdly a lot of the weight I was putting on this movie when I saw it was like

well A everyone's saying this is this masterpiece that's going to win the Oscar and B this is the highest grossing film in the history of Japan. This is their blockbuster.

Yeah. That it had this Titanic Slayer reputation. Right. And very often the highest grossing film in the history of Japan. This is their blockbuster. Yeah, they had this Titanic Slayer reputation. Right, and very often the highest grossing film of any country is incredibly accessible and sort of like stripped

down fundamental story basics, audience satisfying. Oh, totally, yeah. To see this movie and be like, wait, the entire like country is you're like japanese people think this is normal right right but like this is like the most accessible like in the middle everyone can come to this right this is this is the four quadrant hit right right that's the thing not that like you know the the level of quality but like this is

something that everyone is able to get in on yes right was very odd because yes it starts with two boring parents in a car spends very little time before it gets to them finding an abandoned amusement park yes and then her parents become grotesques who can't stop eating and there's no and the food looks so good too you fully understand there's no moment of reality break you know which is the scariest thing i feel like if you're a child talking about not wanting to show this to an actual young child. Like to a very young child. Right. The scariest thing is just like my parents will stop paying attention to me.

And then you'll be alone. I will end up in a world that's indifferent to me, that asks me. That sort of build too where it's like first her parents are just sort of ignoring her. And she's in a bad mood. She's moving. And kids often will know. I knew that I had moved when i was nine like shut up that um that sort of you think i'm pretty sure really i'm pretty sure that kind of that pain of like i've been like ripped from my school and it's so traumatic you know right um and then like the

parents turn into pigs. That's bad. Really bad. Now she's alone in this place. All these weird ghosts and creatures start showing up and walking around. The lights come on which is kind of wonderful but also frightening. She starts to literally disappear. Then a kid shows up. Haku.

Another boy. A boy her age shows up and you're like okay alright here's her friend. And he does the thing where he blows the little petals up and you're like, okay, all right, here's her friend. And he does the thing where he blows the little petals. Right. And you're like, that's where I would get so frightened. What are the rules of this? What did he just do?

Never explain. Right. Whatever that is. Right. It's presented as this very pivotal thing that he's doing. And you expect him later to be like, well, because of the petal spell, you'll be safe now. I think that's where literal-minded 13-year-old Griffin is just like, I don't get this like, well, because of the pedal spell, you'll be safe now. I think that's where literal-minded 13-year-old Griffin

is just like, I don't get this movie. Yeah, what are the rules of this? Someone explain to me. Well, no one ever says like, so this is the spirit world. Right. It's where you go and you die

or it's where the creatures of elemental being, you know, elemental existence are. No one says anything like that. The only thing Yubaba says is like, this is where spirits come to fucking relax.

Right. That's it. It is also such an unnerving thing to be like, oh, it's an abandoned amusement park. Yeah, I hear there are a lot of these. Yeah, I mean, as a Westerner, you have almost like a double displacement. Actually, it's a triple displacement

because think about it. First of all, you're watching a movie that's from a pretty different culture. Uh-huh. Like, for a modern society, Japanese culture is like really different

from American culture. And a culture... Even though it had become so westernized. Right, right. But it's still... I mean, this stuff goes back

thousands of years. So first of all, you're watching a Japanese movie. Right. A culture where the basic relationship to life and death is so fundamentally different

than how we perceive it. Right. Or how you interpret the relationship between the spiritual world and the natural world, all that stuff. So already you have that. Then within that culture, you are in an amusement park, which is a kind of weird – Like a facsimile of a town. A weird space within a space. Right, right.

Oh, and also, it's not just an amusement park, it's an abandoned amusement park. So there's a third displacement, and that's even before you cross the river and now you're in a bathhouse for gods and spirits. Even the baseline of where we as Westerners enter this movie is like the ground is

shifting under our feet. Like, I saw what happened to Kiss. It wasn't good. Yeah like alright I like I'm making my way in Japan. Oh I guess I'm in an abandoned amusement park in Japan. Like this is a lot. Okay. As far as I know Japan had this incredibly crippling recession in the early 90s. Right.

Which I feel like that's sort of in reference to. That's what the amusement parks are. Yeah. It's like a ghost town. Right. Like the lost decade they call it. So maybe that's sort of in reference to that. It's like, yeah, our country kind of had this frenzy of construction and innovation. And now there's all these remnants of it. And what's our connection to the actual country we're a part of?

That's what setting all that stuff is, right? I mean, this is actually one of the most accessible parts of the movie because it's political, which is Miyazaki being like, Japan, guys, what happened? Here you're driving around in your Audi car. You're wearing your golf shirt, bragging about your credit cards. You sit down. You don't care about your kids.

You're alienated from your own children now because you're moving for a new job. You're stuffing your face. You're turning into a pig. And the context in which this is happening is this place, this artificial world that was built before a bubble collapsed and now it's just been left to ruin.

Oh, and they also destroyed a beautiful river to make this thing that is now derelict. Well, also the fact that an amusement park is like, here is an incredibly controlled artificial environment that has been created just to make children happy. Right. You know? For no like sort of betterment or. Yeah.

Like an amusement park for like a child is like this is a world with like bumpers everywhere. Everything is made to like entertain you for your enjoyment and it's completely safe and controlled and secure. for your enjoyment and it's completely safe and controlled and secure that to then be like this is like the hollowed out husk of an amusement park

where there is no joy nothing is operating right it's like watching like a it's like watch like looking at a physical manifestation of a

dead childhood well that's why and she's so freaked out abandoned amusement parks that's why they're creepy yeah they are creepy

and I always think of Chernobyl too you know Pripyat where the abandoned Ferris wheel there oh and also Abandoned amusement parks, that's why they're creepy. Yeah, they are creepy. And I always think of Chernobyl, too. You know, Pripyat, where the abandoned Ferris wheel there. Oh, and also there's all these shadows that are like starting to show up in the stalls around. I mean, it's a lot. So first chill out my spine moment is the weird statue. Second chill out my spine moment is when she's standing in the tunnel and her parents are going forward. And's like she has that childish thing of like I'm not

moving. This is just not good. I don't like what you're doing and so I'm going to fucking plant my feet right here. And then there's that wind that blows behind her and she has that other childish feeling you have where you're like something ain't right. My parents tell me that ghosts don't exist and that creepy stuff

doesn't happen but I got it. And she's not tell me that ghosts don't exist and that creepy stuff doesn't happen, but I got it. And she's not mean to anyone. She doesn't take someone's toys, but Miyazaki is just kind of communicating like, this is a person who, this is an adolescent who is just not ready for anything.

You know what I mean? And who can't really, it's spoiled. He's not setting up a didactic, like, this is the lesson she needs to learn. She's not a bad girl who needs to learn how to be a good girl. She's not the one

who turned into a pig because of her selfishness. She doesn't turn into a pig. Right. Because of her selfishness. Right. Right. It's bearded away.

So, Haku blows petals on her face. Haku blows some petals, no, into the air, not on her face. Okay. And then tries to sneak her in over the bridge by having her hold her breath but then she takes a breath because she

sees a frog man. A little frog says hey Haku what's up? So Haku turns him into a bubble and then runs and suddenly the colors are all running and he's got to sneak her in. She apologizes profusely and he's like it's fine you did a good job.

You held on for pretty long. Yeah he's like it's fine you did a good job yeah right you held on for pretty pretty long yeah he's not like fuck right there's no conflict but Haku is this changeable creature which I think is supposed to

refer I mean for one he's been enslaved he's got like he's got a black slug a black slug inside his body but he's like a river as do we all

right exactly we really do but like he's supposed to be kind of changeable and unpredictable and moody and like placid at one point and sort of strong he's a river spoiler right right spoiler alert he's a river and as you say he's i think the idea is that right they sort of paved over a river or damned a river right right well her dad says this used to be a river

right right that energy had to go somewhere right and she lost her shoe in it a long time ago which is sort of what like maybe bonds them together I mean that's pretty good I'm getting really emotional just thinking about it I mean

the the scene where she's flying on his back and she realizes his expression right and the scales literally

fall off his eyes it's like yeah it's so intense and then they land in absolute silence. They're falling together and she says,

like, she's crying. I mean, we're getting to the end here, but we might as well just talk about it right this second. It's incredible.

It's so incredible. He, I believe, says, or is it her? One of them says, I'm so happy. Like,

you know, that's the final line of their conversation. Every time I watch this movie, I start like sobbing, like hacking sobs. It is crazy. Even if I haven't been emotional for the rest of the movie. Right, right start sobbing, hacking sobs. It is crazy. Even if I haven't been emotional

for the rest of the movie. Right, right. Because I go to see this. It happens to me every single time. It is somewhat Pavlovian, I think, because I've seen it so many times. I see this with my mother

when I'm 13, and when that happens, I go, he's a fucking rigger? What is this movie? He's clearly a person. That was the moment for me that I remember being like,

I have no way into this. Right. I don't understand what's going on here. You brought it up in the past as sort of like, that was your Miyazaki barrier. I was like, I'm done. into this. Right. Like, I don't understand what's going on here. You brought it up in the past. It's sort of like that was your Miyazaki barrier. I was like, I'm done.

He's a river. I'm done. I'm not going to try to fight this. But last night I was like, well, this is the most obvious, innate, organic thing. Like, of course. Of course he's the river, you know? Yeah. And just even hearing you.

Just recount him. Yeah. yeah yeah i got chills well it's i mean again it really it can depend on where you're at in your life or it can depend on where you're at in your head in the moment but these things that are just like you can be in a mood where you're like that doesn't make any sense or you can be in a mood of ecstasy like i'm having an ecstatic experience right now right this. This is profound, right? Like this kid is the spirit of the river, like they met a long time ago, and now he's going to stop being a dragon. They're just going to float down together. I got chills again.

You know what I mean, though? It's just like – Yes, yes. And that's the kind of thing where as a Westerner, again, I'm like, is this like just another day in the life of Japanese pop culture? Or is this like something true? Like, or is this the Sistine chapel? Right.

You know, like a total out of the park home run where people are just like, how did he do that? How did he access that? How did he create this thing that feels so specific and so universal at the same time, which I think is a tension that runs throughout the movie, the entire run of the movie,

which is why the whole thing is so exciting. It also speaks to though, how almost all movies could afford to explain less. Like when you watch a film that is this much a product of a culture that you don't understand and you surrender yourself to, there are things I'm not going to get because I grew up in fucking New York City. You enjoy it in a totally different level. Like even like a movie that is not anywhere near as dense,

but The Farewell. What a fantastic, wonderful, beautiful movie. Right. I sit there watching the film and trying to understand the relation of the family. Yeah, sure. Right. There's a little of that to sort of puzzle out.

It's like no one that just sits down and is like, am his brother and i moved to japan and these are my children right i'm like okay there's a there's an uncle and there's a cousin there's a grandmother and they all live in different places and they all have different have to context clue piece together over the course of an hour and a half like okay she's the mother of the two of them right and that's what happened here and it's so much more satisfying to have a movie force you to sort of work for it and with it in that kind of way. Well, the feeling I remember most specifically and most strongly about seeing Spirited Away for the first time, which I think I saw in the theater because I'd seen princess mononoke on videotape and heard about this new one was like we'll go see it sure i remember just the the procession it's just one of the it's one of the greatest music cue to one of the many great just locked off side shots in

this movie just when the when the masks are floating you mean well there's that but when then there's then there's just the side view of the bridge and this procession of all these different spirits and gods coming to the bathhouse. And then it's just like, you're like, okay, what are these? Are these known religious icons? Or are these just goofy cartoon characters? And then that feeling continues because then when you're down in the boiler room and you see the soot balls, you're like, well, Miyazaki must have made this up. This is just too cute. Like this can't be some real, you know.

Throughout the movie, you have Miyazaki's own creations. Then you have, obviously, there's probably all different types of visualizations, but you have actual spirits that are part of a millennia old folk culture and religious culture. And then you have original characters like Yubaba, right, or the frog. Oh, and then you got three green bouncing heads that function as an assistant to Yubaba.

And so watching it... The way they open doors is always gets me. They're my favorite characters. Watching it, it's so exciting and overwhelming, not only because there's just so much going on visually, but because it does feel like a pastiche of, and I don't know if this is true or not, but it feels like a pastiche of things that are thousands of years old,

things that were made up two years ago at Studio Ghibli, standard human characters. But you have no, for us, it would be like, you go to see a new cartoon and the main characters are Santa Claus. Right. Jesus Christ. Beyonce. You know, and a coffee grinder.

Right. And they all live in this world and interact with each other. Yes. And we would be like, wow, there's a lot going on here. There's a lot to wrap my head around. You know,

so that's how you feel watching it when you're talking about not knowing exactly like, like, like. Right. Superman and Moses. Yeah, but I mean,

you know, and it's kind of like that and that's what makes it kind of, that's, I think what contributes to this feeling of just like feeling overwhelmed. And also serves that kind of dream logic that it has. Because in a dream, you can – dreams can be populated with people or creatures or stuff that would have no business interacting in the real world.

They're from separate worlds. Whether it's like a dream where you're like, I was with my uncle, but he was also my high school teacher, but they never met. It's like that type of stuff. Absolutely. And I was in my house, but it had other rooms, other places that I've accessed in my life. And sometimes your memory is a vibe.

It's a feeling. It's not actually like contextual stuff. It's an emotion maybe. It's an emotion. For me also, it is like the thing I was thinking about and I was like, that's the reason this has endured for so long because it taps into this quality and they have

over decades not been able to recapture this. The first fucking 20 minutes of star wars when you're starting in media res with r2d2 and c3po these two low status characters one of whom can't talk and the movie is throwing so much shit at you right and all you understand is that these characters are vulnerable right but you can't understand the power structures you don't understand the rules of the universe and it keeps on throwing more stuff at you and some understand the power structures. You don't understand the rules of the universe. And it keeps on throwing more stuff at you. And some of the stuff is understandable as like these are archetypes, right?

Oh, these things are behaving like this. I can sort of map on this behavior. But watching that first chunk of the movie, which then that film becomes plottier and the other films become plottier and the prequels become super didactic. becomes plottier and the other films become plottier and the prequels become super didactic and the Disney films become about trying to recapture that feeling but in a more controlled way. That feeling watching the opening

of Star Wars where you're just like this guy's got this whole thing figured out and he's only telling me 2% of it. And he's just trusting that I'll understand. And there's such a fine line and I guess it's like helps you decide whether someone is a great artist or not which is that the feeling of you you want to feel you want to feel that the person is lead you want to be led somewhere and you want to be led by

somebody who knows where they're going right you don't want it to feel um unconfident or something like that it is it does break down into confidence. Right. But I think sometimes confidence these days, maybe this gets back to my thesis about Entertainment Weekly and story structure. So many times now, we associate confidence with a storyteller saying, I know exactly what's going on. Here is what's going on. Here is what is going to happen. I need to hit these marks.

Hit, hit, hit, boom. I have achieved total storytelling competence. Thank you for this journey. But that's the thing. It's competence and not confidence. It's a knowingness. It's like a self-awareness. Right.

Rather than that confidence of like, I think people will understand this. Right. Which is like you associate with like David Lynch's better works. Yes. Where he's like, I'm not telling you shit, but I know what's going on. Right. That's the thing. You can tell you shit, but I know what's going on. Right. That's the thing. You can tell when the person

who's made something knows the answers. The Twin Peaks show did have that quality. The third season. I mean, all of Twin Peaks, but the third season where it's like,

she's entering a mystical boiler room. And it's like, I was just very much like, I cannot imagine trying to logically map what's going on. I understand the emotions of what's happening. You know what I mean? I don't trying to logically map what's going on. Sure. I understand the emotions of what's happening. Right. You know what I mean?

Like, I don't want to think about, like, who the boiler represents. But I know that he has answers. Sure. I also think all the best actors have that quality where you're like, they're kind of only giving me 10% of what they could possibly do. But it's not because they're being lazy. It's because they want you to work for being like, why aren't they giving me the rest? Well, and also that's how humans are. Right.

I mean, humans are only going to give you so much. But De Niro is like an incredibly bottled actor because his whole thing is like watching him and being like, there's something else. Something he's not telling me. This guy isn't doing. Right. Maybe I'd tell you. Yeah. He's like Trump. That's the secret.

Right. Spirited away. Yeah. So she's like Trump. That's the secret. Right. Spirited away. Yeah, so she's at the bathhouse. Haku sneaks her in and is like, you have to ask for a job. They can't turn you down. That's the only way you're going to survive. The rules of this place is that you must be given employment. And we've already been given so many rules that she's been, well, I guess the first rule

was get across the river before the sun goes down. The second one was hold your breath going across the bridge. So you're already thinking like, is that a known thing? Is that like a trope in Japanese folklore? Or is that just made up? Is it like not stepping on a crack?

Yeah, right, exactly. So go see... Go get a job. You have to get a job. Go see Kamaji. Right, they give her Shana advice. Get a job. That's right.

And Kamaji is a yokai which is a sort of phantom I don't know how else to describe it like he's got forearm like he's unusual looking yeah he's a spider guy he's pretty cool spider man with a walrus mustache

he lives in the boiler yeah he's animated the soot to do work yeah he feeds them with little starfish cookies

right yeah where again you're like little star cookies is this candy that came in a plastic bag like what is this it looks so bright

is this children's cereal or is this like ancient yeah he has forearms and they're cut like real taut muscles. He can stretch them as much as he can to the infinite shelves of herbs that he has.

Right. He, I mean, this I think is when I was just like, I think this, I love this. Like, you know, right? Like when you're watching it the first time, you're like, I understand. I understand the logic of everything, even though I've never seen anything like this before. Like the logic of her being like,'ve never seen anything like this before. Like the logic of her being like, see, I can help and she only just hurts.

She's like, I'll do what the soot creatures do. And he's like, this is not your, this isn't your zone. Well, also he says, you're useless. But he also says something really interesting, which is like, it's inappropriate to take someone's job.

Yeah, right, right. He's like, the soot creatures do this. And also like her trying to enter the soot ecosystem leads to them all like going on a weird little strike where they suddenly drop the coal on themselves. Hey, man, she's a disruptor. Sure. She's a disruptor. But she's bad at it.

She can't pick up the coal. It's really heavy. It's surprisingly heavy for her. I don't know. I feel like the soot scene is like, are you in or are you out? This is it, right? Right. Come on, guys. Talk about the soot scene is like, are you in or are you out? Like, this is it, right? Right.

Like, come on, guys. Talk about the soot scene. Last night I was 1,000% in. Good. Great. I mean, honestly, just from the emergence of Mr. Arms. Right. Komachi.

Right. And seeing a character who gets back to the same thing, that this character is very confident. That he's so confident understanding the rules of the world. Right. How he needs to operate, what she needs to do, what everyone needs to do. There's something kind of infectious about, like, as opposed to, like, Haku who's been like, ah, fuck.

Okay, let's try this. Hold your breath. And who's a human? Whereas Kamaji seems like a piece of machinery that is animate. You know what I mean? Like, he performs a serve at, like... But then you find out later what he's doing. The reveal of then how he is, like, He's a piece of machinery that is animate. You know what I mean? Like he performs a service. But then you find out later what he's doing. The reveal of then how he is like setting up the bath. Sure, sure.

Like the tags come down. He's running the bath. He's the CPU for the bathhouse. Right, right, right. But also that he is in perpetual motion. Like he is trying to help her, trying to discern what she can do. He's grinding, he's turning. He never stops doing his job. And it's like, you know, it's so,

the confidence of him being like, I can keep doing what I need to do and also take care of this. Taking care of these creatures, taking care of this little girl, getting work done, getting paid. Right. And then Lynn shows up.

Lynn, who is like the friend, right? The boss, the older sister. You know what's interesting? Watching this movie a couple days ago, I've probably seen this movie almost as many times as any other movie I've ever seen,

which is to say four times. Because I don't really re-watch movies. You don't re-watch a lot. But, and I hadn't seen it. The last time I saw it was with an ex-girlfriend and her two children, one of whom was too young and really freaked the fuck out. But I had completely forgotten about the character of Lynn.

Oh, really? It was actually a really charming, great, specific character. Yeah, and she's a little bit of a sort of thing to hold on to. Yeah, yeah. But in my memory of the movie, I mean, I remembered all the other principal characters except for Lynn. Maybe because she's the only. Is she human?

She's not, right? No. She doesn't look as sluggish as the other slug women. She is not human because Chihiro is human. And they all remark on that she smells like a human. Yeah, okay. She's humanoid. She is the most human.

She is the most. She a human. Yeah, okay. She's humanoid. She is the most human. She is the most... She looks human. Yeah. But she is, I have to assume, a person who died. I don't really... If I wanted to delve

into the logic of what this spirit world is, where you're dealing with these elemental creatures, because, like, he's drawing from all these Shinto beliefs of, like,

there are spirits everywhere in the world. There are spirits in the air. There are plants, you know, right? So, like, that's who some of these things are. But then, like, the humans, you're sort of like there are spirits everywhere in the world right right there are spirits in the air there's plants you know right so like that's who some of these things are but then like the humans you're sort of like are these right are these people who died and have moved into the spirit world well are they always in the spirit world the male attendants are they're frog men they're little men and the female attendants are slugs right right but lynn but lynn and some there are some human people right i don't know but lynn and some there are some human people right

i don't know but lynn is very clear like you're a human you stink right yeah okay and she eats a newt like one of the first things she does is eats a that fried newt which is not something that uh i would do where she's like really into it yeah right that Right. That's true. So she's not human. Interesting. But she does read as if you're. But she is human. Right. She's humanoid. Like I said.

What do you read? I'm going to read something that only makes this more confusing. Okay. This is from the Ghibli Wiki, but they're quoting the Art of Spirited Away book. Sure. Okay. Lin is portrayed as a human being in the film. In the Japanese picture book, Lin is described as Bayako, a

white tiger. Okay. Cool. That's all you got? Yeah, but they identify her as just spirit, as species here. Right. She is a spirit. Right. Because everyone is a spirit. The distinction is that perhaps she's a

human spirit, whereas the others are not. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But we see a couple other humans. Right. Human.

Where she sleeps. Yeah. Where they have their aprons in there. But she is certainly the most normal, central character in this film. She's an archetype we fully understand. She's like the older sister who's like, ugh. Right. I have to drag you around.

You're such a klutz. Right. But in the end, it's nice. You have to deal with this hold your hand through everything right but she is helpful and she you know uh komaji kind of bribes her into like take this new take her to fucking yubaba take her upstairs and they again they're like you must you cannot back down you must ask for work get a job get a job exactly you have to become part of the economy you have to be and there is this weird economy you ever want to escape childhood you must become a productive member of this economy yes right right you have to scrub right yeah you know uh the free ride's over you got to be contributing something right you can't just bum around in here yeah right which

is one thing that i feel like we'll get to No Face, but why he's so disruptive. Like, No Face is not part of how all the capitalist sort of collective balances at work here. I'm still getting chills talking about all this.

Like, I think I'm going to re-watch this movie again. I highly recommend it. As someone who's seen this movie a million times, it's pretty much always kind of rewarding. Even if you don't,

even if you want to kind of just have it on and sort of soak in it and not like think about it too hard. Right. You know what I mean? Like it's rewarding in every way. Yeah.

It's rewarding in sort of like really concentrating and thinking about every single choice that's being made. I mean, like when she enters the bathhouse, it's so beautiful. It's so scary. Right. It is that kid feeling of like,

I don't know the rules of this place. There's all these grownups and all this. Right. but they're just also are like frogs and a radish spirit right this this was his most can't even can't even talk about that shot of her squeezed up again inside of the elevator at the rabbits the radish spirit he has those tendrils coming off his breasts and it's just like so uncomfortable but also he's nice you know that thing when you're so afraid of... He bows to her and she's like, I have to be polite.

The spirits aren't like monsters. By and large, they are benevolent. They're nice. What were you going to say, Griffin? I was going to say a couple things. The Rat-A-Spirit has BBE. Definitely Big Ben energy. It feels like a real Ben character. Hell yeah. But also,

this, I think, was his most expensive film at the time. I mean, Mononoke had been a game-changing sensation. Right. So he had a bit of a blank check and because his stature had risen so much, he knew he was going to have to use more CGI for the film.

He knew it was going to be a production. He said his original script was three hours long. And so he was like, I have to... This is for the film. He knew it was going to be a production. He said his original script was three hours long. And so he was like, I have to... This is insane, okay? His quote was, in order to get to a manageable length, I had to cut out all the eye candy. In his mind, this is a version of the movie.

That's why it looks so boring. I'm sorry the film is so flat and colorless. Show me something I haven't seen a million times, why don't you? He cut it down just to the center. A radish spirit on an elevator. The something I haven't seen a million times why don't you? Cut it down just a radish spirit on an elevator. The stock shit we've seen a thousand

times before. I mean that's just act two you got your radish spirit. Building blocks of Hollywood story. Yeah totally. There you go.

Hollywood insider. Meeting with the goddess fat vegetable in an elevator. And you're watching Lin. Again, like, same thing with Haku. Like, antagonistic to you sometimes, but then you watch them be altruistic. Yeah.

In your, you know, she eats the, she sort of gets her through with the newt. Right. What I was going to say is there are so many characters in this film, primary characters who are so detailed. primary characters who are so detailed. And the more detail you have in a basic character, obviously the more of a nightmare it is to animate in multiple scenes, especially in extreme motion. It's the reason why most cartoon designs are very simplistic.

Charlie Brown is sort of like a platonic ideal for a cartoonist because it's just a ball. It's a sphere, and it's got a couple dots and lines on it. And it's easy to draw him from any angle. But like, what's her name? I keep on wanting to say Baba Yaga because I'm a moron. Baba. Baba is just like the first moment she appears on screen. And you're like, he's going to really, he's going to challenge himself to keep animating this character.

Right. For the next 90 minutes. With that wrinkle structure on her face. There's that one scene very late in the film with Geneva where just her nose is sort of hovering in the frame. And you're like, right, there's no logical way to not have that nose because it's so large.

But also the work you have to do to be like I need to fully figure out how this nose looks in three dimensions. Here are all the wrinkles and lines of this nose and I need to know how to animate it within space and movement. Also, just so it's not too easy, let's give her a ton of jewelry. Right!

Like everything about her. And her proportions are completely illogical. Right. So this was the first one where they sold the rights to Disney before production in order to get financing to help complete the movie. Oh, really? Yeah, that was like a big thing where once he had like cracked it,

it was like, this is going to be really expensive. We're going to need some more money. We need outside fundings. I think they sold to other countries as well. But that Lasseter, lots of hugging Lasseter, went to Disney and said like, can we please give him the money to do it? Right, Lasseter, lots of hugging. And Lasseter, who's recently been disgraced. Oh, is that

the Pixar guy? Yeah, but he was such a fan of Miyazaki. So many people were. As I said, I think Clements and Musker were heavily inspired by Cagliostro for The Great Mouse Detective, things like that. He's like, you don't understand. This is the guy. We have to give him what he wants.

He sold to them the idea that like every other country is starting to get really into this guy's movies. There should be a breakthrough moment where he connects with American audiences as well. And when the movie came out and it got sort of

a half-hearted release, Disney's defense was, well, we didn't get merchandising rights, so we were really limited in what we could do with the film. Like their whole thing was that they could only make money off of releasing the movie in theaters. And the fact that they didn't retain the intellectual do with the film. Like their whole thing was that they could only make money off of releasing the movie

in theaters. And the fact that they didn't retain the intellectual property of the film gave them so little incentive to do anything with it. Oh, I see. Because they couldn't make like no face dolls or something. Right. Because he had those rights. Right.

They couldn't work. It's all right. Right. It's all right. And there's this Disney thing with how vertically integrated Disney is, especially now that they buy like more and more brands and just go like, we can work everything into every tendril of our company. Where they were like, so what's the deal here?

We put it in theaters and we just make money from people buying tickets? You mean that successful business model that's existed for 100 years? We can't put it on Broadway. We can't do an ice skating show. Oh, my God. The Spirited Away Broadway show. Yeah. The musical. do an ice skating show. Oh my god, the Spirited Away Broadway show. Yeah. The musical. Kills everyone

who attends. Right. And they enter the spirit world. The stink monsters coming closer and closer. Cover your nose. Right. I feel like honestly a reason why he had to put he had to go to Disney to get money

to make the film. Is how incredibly hard it would be to create a character like Yubaba. And how many characters are like that? There are multiple that are just absurdly detailed. Right. Yubaba has a sister, though. Okay, Jesus. What does she look like? She looks like Yubaba.

They did say there was one pretty cool cost-saving measure, which is they're just going to look exactly the same. It's not even a mirror. Yubaba. Shows up to Yubaba. Yeah. I don't know what, you know, another thing. Right.

I've never seen anything look like this. What an incredible looking creature this is. She's living in a European aesthetic. A hundred percent. Right. Yes. Very gothic. Very, you know very crenellated.

Lots of books and rugs. She looks like a political cartoon. You're like, this is a caricature of a government official that I don't know. Sure, I get that. I totally get that, but it's also like how when you're a kid, you're kind of afraid of old people because they

just don't look right. They look different to the regular humans. That big wart in the middle of her head. Yeah. Right. Where these things you focus on. Right. Yeah. You get fixated on your great aunt's mole or something.

She's kind of like your grandma that you're afraid of. Yeah. And she's like, get out of here. How'd you get up here? And she's like, I need a job. Get out of here. I need a job. I, you know.

Yeah. And then the baby shows up, which is just like, I mean, at this point, I don't know how many. For me, that's my boiler room where it's like, I guess we're doing this. A giant baby's foot kicks a door down. And she immediately shifts from being scary grandma to being like, oh, calm down, baby. It's okay. But also such an interesting choice to like set up this character who's ostensibly sort of if not the villain the conflict right sure the antagonist

and within like two minutes be like but she's like a really really doting parent to this giant baby she's you know her flaw is maybe a little too hard on the workers a little too easy on the kid you know what i mean like maybe she could find some balance in both but there's that thing that even as a 14 year old or however old it was when i saw this movie 16 where she writes chihiro's name on the contract that's so and then lifts three of the kanji off there's only one remaining and she has a totally different sounding name yeah and i think i looked up the meanings of these words chihiro means ah fuck i have to look it up again because i want to send means a thousand right right um and chihiro means something like a thousand somethings let's find it chihiro ogino

so she changed her name to a number essentially right yeah exactly a thousand fathoms is what chihiro means. Pretty cool. And everyone's like, Chihiro, that's a good name. Anytime they hear the name, her real name, they're like, oh yeah. But just that concept that she has your name now, so you cannot escape. It's gone. It's not even like she

changed your name legally. It's like, that belongs to her. There's nothing you can do with that. And she'll start to forget it, which is another really unsettling thing. Which is not long after where Haku's like, okay, great, you got a job? Eat this human food, and you'll remember your name and not disappear.

Does it happen after the scene where they go back to her parents and she sees the pigs? Yes. First Haku takes her to the pigs, I think. Because then there's the scene where she's eating the bun, and tears just start pouring down her face. Huge gelatinous tears. She's eating the rice balls. Does that get you?

Yeah, it gets me a lot. It's also just that feeling of food nourishing you. Now she has basic desires that you would forget about in this era world. David's like grabbing his face like he's ripping his skin off his skull. That is a good moment. It's great.

And it's nice Haku. We've seen mean Haku. Because Haku shows up with Yubaba and he's like, fine, I'll take her. Whatever. Fuck you. That thing they set up of you need to be able to identify which ones were your parents. And you need to remember this. These are your parents.

Don't forget. I feel like as a kid, I used to have so many fears around like forgetting things or not being able to understand things anymore. You know, especially like I feel like when you're a child and you're being very emotionally affected by something and someone around you doesn't understand. Yeah. You know, why are you scared? Why are you sad? Why are you angry? Versus like the comfort you get in your parents being like, I understand this is that thing.

You're afraid of bats or whatever. When someone's like, what's the deal? Some like sort of indifferent adult. I feel like I always had this fear of like, I don't want to become like that. Where I can't pick up on what other people are going through. You know, where I'm not attuned to things anymore. Where I don't remember what things feel like.

When I was a kid, I was very afraid of my voice changing. Because I knew that was a passage into adulthood. Your voice gets deeper. And I was like, what about my current voice? That can't be lost to time. Like, I was very afraid of that. You had golden pipes, too. Yeah, sure.

And I did home videos and stuff. Like, I was like, okay, there's like a record of my old voice. Now I don't think about these things. I was very afraid of it when I was like okay there's like a record of my old voice now I don't think about these things I was very afraid of it when I was like 10 years old the Polar Express thing of like there are things you fundamentally will not be able to connect with anymore once you are grown you know

I think like between like the name and like remembering her parents like all that stuff in the movie is just like there's a point where she can fall too deep into this where there's no going back, where her childhood is fully over. She never goes back to that place of security with her boring parents. You know, it's just done. She will completely lose any sense of who she used to be and any ability to return to that life.

Yeah, that's true. But one of the things that's interesting is that we haven't seen her, her human childhood has not been idealized. No. It's not obvious to us why she should, other than the fact

that she's just a kid who has parents and it's good to have your parents. It's not obvious to us why she would be so concerned about saving her parents

and leaving the bathhouse. I mean, she has kind of a rough job but she's making friends there's it's fulfilling right i like i like the middle it's not like a lot yeah it's not but but i know what you're saying i mean she's gonna get sucked into adulthood like as a perpetually sad and scared child who was not like greatly enjoying my childhood i was also more than anything terrified of becoming an adult. Really?

Yeah. It like scared me so much. I get that. I get that. I remember I would do that thing where I would go like, okay, wait, so like right now I'm six and next year I'll be seven. The year after that I'll be eight. I would count up until I'd be like, and then I'm going to be 20. Yeah.

And it's over. And that would terrify me. And I'd like run to my mom and I'd be like, I'm only 13 years away from not being a kid anymore. Right. I'm only like years away from not being a kid anymore. Right. I'm only like six years until I become a teenager or whatever, you know? But what were you afraid of? I think I was afraid of losing the status quo, even if the status quo wasn't always comfortable for me.

It was the security of that's what I knew. Yeah. So it wasn't anything inherent to your being a child. It was just that's what you happen to be and you don't like change. There was that, but there also was like certain concepts of being a child. They're like, you have to make money. Like you have to be able to earn for yourself. You have to live on your own.

Scrub the tub. You have to do all these things. And I was like, I like that I don't have to do any of this. I don't have to worry about any of this. But I feel like the appeal of what's happening to her in Spirited Away is that even though she has been drafted into service,

she's part of a community now. There's Yubaba who's so frightening in that first scene. In the scene where they're scrubbing the tub, which is the sort of next big thing. Right. When the, you know, the stink spirit arrives.

Scrub a tub. Like Yubaba is not really very mean in that. She's kind of, like, there's the part where she, like, produces the fans

and starts, like, That's amazing. No, that's one of the best scenes in the movie. It's one of the, right,

and you feel like, yeah, they're all in this together. Right. And Yubaba's annoyed, like, stink spirit.

yeah. But she's also good at her job. She's like, I know stink spirits. I got nose. Right. You know nose nose

and this isn't a regular like something's up with this this is like I mean like the first major set piece in the movie which is how do you

give a mud monster a bath right I love this guy the stink spirit yeah I love the stink spirit there's a lot to relate to with that character

and then I also love when he turns out to be a river. And his floating skeleton head attached to a water serpent. Again, it's another uncanny moment of computer animation I think that feels just a little

bit off and unsettling. In a way that's very effective. But that feeling of just you're so dirty and tired and traveling and it's almost like getting to the hotel finally and showering. Right. And all that. All that.

She vomits human garbage. Like that she pulls like bicycles and things out of him. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah. Pretty good movie, guys. And how hard it is. Like getting the thing to drop down.

Like reaching. Everything is hard. And also she is waiting through, I mean getting back to Shrek, she's waiting through what could be fecal matter, like a tub of diarrhea. I mean I don't think it is diarrhea. It's not great. But you're getting into some pretty primal stuff with anal expulsion. You know what I mean?

This very well might be Shrek's shit. Right. It's very possible. We know Shrek shits. It's there in the beginning of the film. He flushed the outhouse. Yeah, but they weren't brave enough to show it, were they? They weren't.

They're cowards over DreamWorks. DreamWorks apparently bid very competitively for this movie. Which is a weird thing to think about if Katzenberg had this and Shrek right but that makes sense

because it was this Titanic slayer it was this sort of this has got to be a phenomenon and that's how DreamWorks was trying to defeat Disney

was going like what if we have a deal with Artamon we pull in all the rival animators you're talking about Wallace and Gromit yeah

yeah I forgot about those guys. They're still around. Really? I think so. Didn't he do a relatively recent Wallace and Gromit? He did,

but also Wallace died. Like a TV show. The voice of Wallace died. He did, Peter Salas, who's very old because he was old when he started voicing.

Like he was a TV guy from Britain. Like I knew that guy. He was 102 in A Grand Day Out. They did some TV shorts I think like five years ago was the last thing they did. And the last proper short was like 2011, maybe. Yeah, that sounds right.

Yeah. I mean, they were still doing stuff right up until he died, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think the Stink Spirit is the best... Part of the movie? ...set piece? No, because does the train count?

Yeah. Because to me, the train is like a cinema. Right. It's like Nigel Andrews is when he says like, you just want to pull a John Keats and just die. Yeah. I mean, that's the train is. And the one thing I knew going into this movie is people were like,

there's like a sort of an emotional climb. Like, you know, it kind of comes to a head on a train. And I was like, love trains. Right. This sounds sounds great and then i watched the movie and i'm like she just sort of sits there and like life kind of rolls by i was like it's a little underwhelming or is it the most whelming i know why is it so heavy why is that scene so fucking heavy and emotional being quiet it's just the movie is being quiet movies aren't quiet yeah movies just like sit down man everyone's got a life that they're living you know but it's oh it's something about the train going over the shallow water yeah it's also very dreamlike and the like neon signs are going by and you see cities in the distance and

then you have like ghost commuters shadow commuters and then the little girl shadow on the platform and she's made her peace with no face and i don't yeah all right so back to that's the best scene yeah i mean that's in like a movie yeah yeah i such an existential moment and just encapsulated it's amazing and again you're watching a girl progress emotionally and learn things about herself but not there's not moments where she says that right yeah and so here she's learning like sort of like i mean she gets a little vomit dumpling from the river spirit, which is pretty cool. You know, a kid, you would expect her to get like a sword or something. He gives her a vomit dumpling, but it is useful.

She gets a prize. But so she's learning the value of like teamwork and like collective spirit. Problem solving. Right, right. The sort of like, like there's that, because after this there's that thing where they're like, they're going to bed afterwards. They're like, oh God, that was a day.

That's also a great scene. It's a great scene. She's with Lynn and they're like, they're going to bed afterwards. They're like, oh, God, that was a day. That's also a great scene. It's a great scene. She's with Lynn, and they're eating, because they got extra rounds of dinner or whatever, and more sake. And they're sitting on their little porch, and they're in their aprons, and they're like, what a day.

You know? It's incredible. And that's when No Face... So No Face shows up in the middle of this. She lets him in by mistake because he seems nice. Yeah. Also, just like us, it's like, how was I not supposed to know he was a spirit?

He's just as freaky as everyone else. Like, why shouldn't I let him in? It's not like... It should be like little... With an X. Like, you know, this guy, his money's no good. No one's giving me a visual glossary.

Like, I'm riffing here. I'm improvising. Kaonashi, faceless is his name. I'm trying to figure out what he's based on. You know what I mean? Sure. I thought this was... He doesn't exist in Japanese.

Yeah, I thought this was just a Miyazaki thing he came up with. His face design is taken from a silk worm like the sort of pattern on his face yep but he is just a sort of black cloak with a mask right i guess uh he's spooky he is spooky he's the most iconic image miyazaki character other than totoro i would say so. I would say absolutely. And what, again, this is like, I don't know if the analysis is cultural, psychological, or something deeper,

but like, why is this character so fucking iconic and intriguing? All he is is just this quiet thing. I mean, obviously he's going to turn into a monster and eat people and barf gold. Like, that's interesting. Pretty good. But I mean, obviously he's going to turn into a monster and eat people and barf gold. Like that's interesting. Pretty good. But I mean,

when he's just, and it's a little, why is he so transfixing? Like, well, yeah, for most of the film, I mean,

he has the shape of your water bottle sitting here. Like for most of the film, he does not have any limbs. Right. He is just sort of like a, a big mound. Yeah. But if he walks like a little foot might appear,

you know what I mean? Like steps. Right. Right. Very slender, sort of like a big mound. Yeah, but if he walks, like a little foot might appear. He goes up the steps. Very slender, like surprisingly slender limbs, I will say. Somewhat feminine. And he's, I don't know, what does he represent? Like loneliness? That's the thing, though.

Well, so I think if you're thinking about all this as a huge economic parable. Right, he is this thing that doesn't make sense within the cogs of the bathtub. He's an angel investor. He's just someone who can just make money appear out of. But it's all bullshit. Right. He's Chris Saka.

And also he's just modeling other. He's modeling that behavior of. Anyone he ingests. Anyone he's around. Yeah. Right. And like. Go ahead.

Go ahead. I was going to say like. He's no face. he has no face, he has no identity. Right. He... Then he eats the frog and he becomes greedy

because the frog is greedy. Right. And so, you know, and like starts talking like the frog. Well, he's kind of a sociopath in a way that is scary where you cannot figure out

why someone is operating the way they're operating. Mm-hmm. Which like, that's what happens when you remove someone's face and you can't read, you know, their emotions. Sure.

Yeah, it's, like, very unnerving. Think about, by the time we meet No-Face, we've met a lot of unusual characters. Yeah. We've met some funny fellas. But they all have recognizably more or less human personalities. Yubaba is just cantankerous, grumpy, bossy, tyrannical. We know. We've all met Lady Elaine Fairchild.

And what's his name? Boiler Room Man. Kabaji. Right. Crotchety. Crotchety. Nice guy, but... Heart of gold.

Right, right. Lin. Lin, bossy older sister. Haku. Right. A mean boy that maybe you like. What is this feeling? Right.

Yeah. But No Face. Radish guy, like Mr. Cool. Cool. Radishy. That's interesting. Is he cool? That's an interesting question.

I mean, he definitely is like, he seems hard to startle. You know what I mean? I think he's very, very relaxed. Right. Yeah. But No Face is the most obviously enigmatic yeah and i think you're right what's what's a little disturbing about him is you know there's no real sense of motivation i guess other than just fathomless loneliness right and emptiness

i think a thing that is terrifying for a child. Like that's your greatest fear is to end up that way. And everyone in the bathhouse exists in this sort of system, like this kind of like greedy system. You want to hoard what you can get. There's all the tags. There's the better tags and the worst tags, you know, all that stuff. So when he shows up and he's like, I'll pay whatever for whatever you provide.

They're like, this is a bonanza. Right. pay whatever for whatever you could provide they're all they're like this is a bonanza right but sen is still a child does not have thoughts of like monetary gain like that's just not kind of in her character yet so that's why she can like totally defeat no face because he's like i can give you limitless gold and she's like i don't know what am i gonna do with that right she's kind of uncorruptible right i mean she's, she's like, I'm here to rescue my parents and probably learn some valuable life lessons about the spirit of work and the collective.

But if this is Miyazaki's story about contemporary Japanese culture and the emptiness of post-industrial capitalism. Which it probably is. We see everyone at their worst

when No-Face shows up with free unlimited money because they're all debasing themselves in front of No-Face. They're offering platters of food. But do you think in Miyazaki's mind, No-Face represents an actual economic condition in Japan or a personality of the Japanese

I don't know remember what's interesting about no face is no face isn't really greedy right? no face just wants attention 100% I just can't imagine somebody who would throw around a lot of money

in service of seeking validation from others. No, it makes zero sense. And how far could that person possibly go? Right. You know? And the idea of also that kind of person who is so hollow and vacant, whose motivations you can never figure out because there's nothing really going on there, that people would just fall over themselves giving him anything he wanted. Right. You know, that they would totally debase themselves, that they would surrender

all their values. That's why I'm saying this movie is hard to follow. Here's a Miyazaki quote. Right, just at the fear of him devouring them. So here's something he says. It's more about the pigs, but you know, Chihiro's parents turning into pigs symbolizes how humans have become greedy. At the very moment Chihiro says

there's something odd about the town, her parents turned into pigs. There are people that turned into pigs during Japan's bubble economy in the 1980s. And these people hadn't realized they'd become pigs. Once someone becomes a pig they don't return to being human they just gradually start to have the body

and soul of a pig. These people are the ones saying, we're in a recession and we don't have enough to eat. This doesn't apply to a fantasy world. This isn't just, perhaps it isn't a coincidence that the food isn't actually a trap to catch lost humans. So, like, I think, yes, he probably is talking about what happened to his country.

That metaphor is a little easier to read than no face. It is. No, it is. I know, I know. But I'm just saying, like, you know. Do you know what I find very unnerving about the parent pig thing in particular? The transformation doesn't happen on screen, right? They don't give us like a Pinocchio thing where suddenly their ears. We cut to it. Right.

But when you see them hunched over, they are sort of pig-like when they're eating. But it's this fact that they, A, cannot stop eating, right? I mean, it's just shoveling one thing. They can't hear their daughter. That's the thing. That like some switch goes off where they're like, cannot stop eating. Right? Yes, 100%. They can't hear their daughter. That's the thing. Some switch goes off where they're like, this food is good, and then they become so thoroughly consumed by the food

that they cannot hear her. Right. And they cannot stop moving things into their mouth. That it's just like, like that, they're gone. 100%. Spirited away. Pigs. No face.

Oh, yeah, right. So the emetic dumpling So the medic dumpling, the vomit dumpling, right? Half of it is used to cure no face. Right. She puts it inside him. He just like,

he just emits, he voids. Right. Right. Like just goo comes out of him basically. Right. Yeah. It's another really satisfying moment of expulsion.

Right. And like this movie purification through vomiting. Oh, yeah. This is a pimple-popping movie. Oh, totally. This movie is simultaneously extremely spiritually esoteric and very grounded with body horror and, like, real fundamental

substances being secreted from orifices. I don't like human beings are disgusting. It's what we call full spectrum dominance. And then, you know, with Haku, Haku eats the other half of the dumpling. And there's that moment where he's shaking in the blood, suddenly just like whaps against the wall.

Yeah. Woo! Has there ever been an American children's film with this much body stuff. Fucking, what's it called? Stand By Me. Has the famous vomiting scene. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, it's interesting. Animated. Like, has Pixar ever made a movie where people throw up and go to the bathroom? Absolutely not. Pixar kind of skates

far away from that kind of stuff. Monsters, Inc. is bathroom shit. Really? It has scenes in a bathroom. It has a fair number of bathroom scenes. Yeah. Where they go to the bathroom and throw... No, it's more like

there's a lot of antics in a bathroom. Those that, you know, they hide the little girl in the bathroom. Doesn't count. I'm talking about... Right, but there's no actual sort of bathroom talk. Right?

Like, no kind of like pee-pee-poo-poo. We're talking about blood. Pee. You know, I understand. Right? Like, throw up. Spit.

Because the thing I remember most in Monsters, Inc., which is burned into my brain forever, is Steve Buscemi, whatever he's called. Yeah. Randall. Randall Bosch. He goes like, every time, and bang, knocks open a bathroom door.

Right. Bang, does it again. Like, that's the image in Monsters, Inc. Other monsters are using the toilet, though. I mean, it's just not a visualized thing. No, it's like their job. Right, right. I'm trying to think. I mean, it's just not a visualized thing. No, it's like their job. I'm trying to think.

I mean, I feel like when I would watch animated movies as a child that would give me the same sort of discomfort in, like, body horror, they would not be films that we're intentionally trying to trap in to something. They'd be movies that were bad and accidentally were upsetting. Like, there are things like the weird Felix the Cat animated movie. Sure. Or like the weird Raggedy Ann and Andy musical. I don't know that.

These are like bad animated films that were like failures and were disliked by children that I would watch a lot because my mother was so overprotective that they were the things playing on the few channels that she let me watch. Right. And those movies I remember having physical things that made me uncomfortable. The Japanese little Nemo and Slumberland movie, but those movies are often not dealing with very biological things.

Like Ren and Stimpy and Rocko's Modern Life, those are TV shows, but those come to mind. They have like Puss and Boogers. Puss and Boogers. Oh, really? Yeah, but always in a gross-out come to mind. They have like pus and boogers. Oh, really? Yeah, always in a gross-out way, though. It was way more about that. But in this sort of like fetishistic,

like can you believe how amazingly drawn this booger is? You know what I mean? Right. You know, like where there's like painted shots where they're zooming in on a nose. Right, you see their pores. I guess what I mean, what's interesting about Spirited Away

is that of those moments of, like, it's pretty gruesome. Yeah. But it's not done, obviously, for humor or shock. It's thematic. Yeah, no, no. After this scene

is when everything has to calm down and everyone needs to chill out. Right. Like, it's very violent and sort of everything's been obseetervy. And after he barfs everywhere, they need to

take it easy. Like the movie has to be very calm now. Right? Mm-hmm. I mean, I guess there's, what's the point

with the baby? The point with the baby? When is she with the baby? That's before she goes on the train. Yes. Right?

Like this is all happening. It's like after this, she gets summoned to Yubaba's office. Yubaba's yelling at her. There's before she goes on the train. Yes. Right? Like this is all happening. It's like after this she gets summoned to Yubaba's office. Yubaba's yelling at her. There's the pile of gold that turns into mush. Right. But like there's the thing where Chihiro's with the baby in the baby's padded room. Right. And scares the baby with

her hand. Her dirty hand. Oh I forgot about that. Right. The baby lives in this like totally hermetic world. The baby's a bit of a germaphobe. Yeah. Right. Well the mother has convinced the baby lives in this like totally hermetic world the baby's a bit of a germaphobe yeah right well the mother has convinced the baby that the outside world is terrible right

yeah right because the whole like and right this yeah and Haku is being attacked by the fucking paper creatures

yeah that rules yeah you see Haku in the distance like and then it's like right on you and it's really visceral

and horrible yeah but when Zaniva arrives and she transforms everyone a coup in the distance, and then it's right on you and it's really visceral and horrible. Yeah. But when Zaniba arrives and she transforms everyone, right? Well, you should explain that Zaniba has transferred herself via a hologram into being one of these paper birds. Sure, she sort of astrally projected herself

through a paper airplane. And has attached herself to the back of Chihiro unbeknownst to her so that she can gain access to Yubaba's apartment and look around. Where she suddenly creates mayhem. She turns the heads into the baby.

She turns the baby into a mouse. She turns the harpy creature into a little fly. But like a total cartoon. I mean again this is when another moment where it's like, I don't, I've given up trying to understand what, um,

mythological world we're in, but it's also like, what kind of cartooning are we doing here? It's a totally different visual style. this looks like a Disney, or not even Disney. This just looks like a Saturday morning cartoon bird. The little mouse,

especially. Yeah. Right. Right out of Cinderella. Yeah The little mouse especially. Yeah, right? But it's so crushing when Yubaba sees the mouse and is like get that out of here. It's a mouse. It's disgusting.

And she hears like you don't recognize and then just tails off and the mouse looks so sad and then they just leave. You know what, when you're asking like are there other animated films that deal with that sort of body horror, I think the thing that I feel like would affect me as a child, I can't think of other things that

are that visceral and biological in that sense, but it was always the when people's bodies change. You know? So anything where someone gets stuck inside another person's body, but also anything where, like, their body gets morphed in any sort of way gets mutated gets affected where there's some sort of like corruption from the outside pinocchio and they all turn into freaks me the

fuck out well yeah because yeah and the translation to pigs feels yeah right like you know what's coming if you're a kid you know what's coming. Your body is going to go through changes. But this movie has got a ton of that. Most of these characters have at least one transformation. She's in a liminal space between childhood and adulthood. She's going to have some crazy changes coming on. I think that's the thing. Once again, speaking just as a someone who

was an incredibly terrified child i think it was just like this is already so overwhelming i don't want anything to change right yeah i just i just got a footing on this i'm gonna lose my voice right you know i'm gonna have to shave like what the fuck are you throwing out every which way all of that get it out of here you know yeah let me just stay here. Yeah. And also the adult world is mean and hard to figure out, and you've got to just be strong. My parents seem tired. Yeah. Right.

I've told this story, I'm sure, before on the podcast. It's a thing that probably kind of broke me as a human being. In many ways, you could look to my current lifestyle and extrapolate how this affected me. When my mom was pregnant with my sister, so I was eight going on nine, and my brother and I had shared a room, and now we were going to get separate bedrooms for the first time

because we had a third kid. We had to get a bigger space. So my mom asked me what color I wanted my walls to be and I said I wanted the cloud wallpaper from Toy Story and my mom said she would not let me do that because I wouldn't

like Toy Story for much longer. Whoa. That is crazy that she said that to you. She's like, I know you like it right now, but you got like two more years to go. Wallpaper is an investment. Like how much was,

it was probably a lot of money to buy that wallpaper. Sure, but she did break it down in those terms. I said, what do you mean? And she went,

look, I know you love Toy Story now, but you're eight and soon you're going to be nine and maybe you'll still like it when you're 10 or 11, but when you're 13, you're not going to want to live

in a Toy Story room. You're going to be embarrassed. She's worried that you're going to be embarrassed as a teenager. I kind of side with your mom on that. I broke down crying. And I live in an apartment that's 90% Toy Story. Really?

Yeah. Is Toy Story good? It's my favorite. He's wearing a forky hat. I'm wearing a forky hat. Oh, from the new Toy Story. Toy Story's a masterpiece. You should watch it. I think you'd like it. I don't know, man. I don't want to go dumping on Pixar. I'm wearing a forky hat. Oh, from the new Toy Story. Toy Story's a masterpiece. You should watch it. I think you'd like it. I don't know, man. I don't want to go dumping on Pixar.

I know you don't like Pixar. It's kind of my wife's job. I know. Emily is, I feel like. Speed back. Pixar movies, that's kind of what I'm talking about. The Entertainment Weekly thing of like, God, Toy Story is just such a satisfying instantiation of the art of storytelling.

This is a flawless machine delivering emotions. Okay, but here's my whole take. I'm not going to get into this because I do this in every episode. But that the Toy Story movies are about existential meaningless. They sometimes are. I think the Toy Story movies are pretty good. I think they are. I think they're about these characters having to reckon with the fact that they have no reason to be alive.

There's stuff to talk about with Toy Story. I don't like them as much as him, though. All right. But the point is, in some ways, I think my mother saying that to me probably caused me to, out of defiance, Yeah, I see what you're saying. never let go. I'll never let go of Toy Story. Right.

And I can empirically, like as an adult, rationalize why I still value them as movies and all of this. But I also think that concept terrified me so much. Her telling me fundamentally, there are things that mean the most to you in the world right now that you will not only not care about later, you won't like them. You will be embarrassed by the fact that you ever liked them. That was a heavy lesson.

It freaked the fuck out of me. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that kind of thing of like, you will change the things you care about will change. Your name will change.

You know all these sorts of things. I had the same thing with starting fires. They told you you would grow out of starting fires. And I never did.

Okay. So he gathers all of the sort of she gathers sorry all of the sort of broken creatures. Right, sorry, all of the sort of broken creatures, right? Island of Misfit Toys. Yeah.

Mouse Baby. Fly Harpy. No Face, who's kind of like, look, I tried being Mr. Business. Nobody likes that. Yeah, your classic pussy posse. Right. And wait, there's five people on the train, right?

Isn't there five creatures on the train or just four there's just four yeah she goes down to Komaji she feeds you know like she retrieves Haku's curse and squishes it I love that moment where he's like make a circle

I have to break the curse you know where she's like and Komaji's like go take the train go see zaniba and go figure it out this is a moment in the movie this is one of chihiro's great initiatives where it's her idea like i'm gonna make this right i'm gonna apologize on behalf of haku he didn't know what he was doing uh i'm gonna go make this right. Right. Right. It is Chihiro accepting responsibility as well. Accepting responsibility but

not accepting responsibility almost doubly so because he's actually doing the ultimate responsible thing which is accepting responsibility on behalf of someone who's not in condition to accept responsibility. Do you know what I mean? It feels a little even more interesting and

loving. I think that's why Zaniba is so moved by it. One thing. Your love broke the curse. She's so amused to hear. She's like, that wasn't me. That's Yubaba. Yubaba's the one with the contracts and the curses and the

I own your life forever you know um but it is so miyazaki as well that's like you're going to exit urban environment you're going to go to the countryside where like things are lived simply and you make what you use and you right you know like you find your own new sense of right security i love i mean obviously we talked about the train ride i don't want to say about the train ride, we talked about it. I mean, it's just iconic. It's just one of those things that just feels like… Name a more iconic train ride, I dare you.

Yeah. I don't know. There's just something. But again, it's like you can't help but wonder, like, why is this doing this to my mind? Like, what is this? Right. It is. I guess it's like you can't help but wonder, like, why is this doing this to my mind? Like, what is this? Right. It is. It's sunset.

I guess it's dusk. Yeah. So it's, I mean, again, we don't, we keep talking about. Is that shot of her walking on the water? We keep talking. Yeah. Talking about liminal spaces. And now we have even more piled up because now we're in space.

We're in twilight. Right. Isn't that the lighting is like a twilight. The sun is setting and it turns to night. Right. You're on a train track that's in shallow water right also is just kind of weird

and we've been seeing the train the whole movie occasionally it'll sort of go by right yeah it's an old train with shadow people on it

also where Lynn kind of takes her in the little bathtub yeah to the station right and then she's like watching Chihiro go

and you see her realize like this is a good person that I know yeah and she's watching Chihiro go and you see her realize this is a good person that I know. And she's like, I'm sorry I called you a klutz. You're not a klutz. Which also kind of gets me. It gets this idea of this movie being kind of undeniable unless you have deliberately constructed a wall between you and it like I did

as a 13 year old. Is that it's almost like this movie has identified certain tones that evoke a physiological response from humans. You know?

It's cracked into something that you can't fucking understand why all these story elements, these single images, these plot points are affecting you in this way. Yeah, because you never feel,

it never feels cloying or exploitive or manipulative the way that type of move can feel. And so often it is so unexplained too

where you're like, I can't even make sense of what's going on on screen, let alone why it's affecting me. I was like trying to see like, you know,

writings he did about the film to see what he thinks the movie's about or how he talks about it sure and obviously you know i think he likes to be a little bit elusive and not over explain stuff and also that it shifts sometimes but there was this thing of like uh this is on the wikipedia page every summer hayo miyazaki spent his vacation in a mountain cabin with his family and five girls who were friends of the family right the idea from spirit away came about when he wanted to make a film

for these friends. Miyazaki had previously directed films for small children and teenagers, such as My Neighbor Totoro and Kiki's Delivery Service, but he had not created a film for ten-year-old girls, which is such a weird... But that moment of adolescence is what he's writing. But also,

the great thing about that story is he kind of thought these girls were idiots, right? These are the girls who were just like... They really need to learn about scrubbing. Right, exactly. When he said for inspiration he read Sojo manga magazines like Naokashi and Rebon, the girls left at the cabin, but felt that they only offered subjects on crushes and romance. Right. When

looking at his young friends, Miyazaki felt this was not what they, quote, held dear in their hearts and decided to produce the film about a girl heroine whom they could look up to instead. And then, like, the movie then generates out of the fact, like, he wanted to produce a film for two years. He had two previous proposals. One of them was based on a book.

He had a third proposal that was about a bathhouse. He was interested in the bathhouse because he was always curious about what happened behind the door that was making the bathhouse run. And then this crazy line here. And sometimes I wonder when they attribute quotes to Miyazaki if they're simplifying what he said. Because they make it sound like he's a man who only ever says five words a week. The coldest, most frightening thing.

Right. Miyazaki did not want to make the hero, quote, a pretty girl. At the beginning, he was frustrated how she looked quote dull and thought quote she isn't cute isn't there something we can do as the film neared the end however he was relieved to feel quote she will be a charming woman okay squad goals what a weird thing to say sure uh yes i am. She will be a charming woman. But that is, I mean, when you watch the documentaries about him, it is sort of him staring at an image and being like,

no, I'm not, like, life is not being evoked here. Right. Like, you know, it's just not, it needs to move differently. There's something wrong. The eyes need to be different. Right, like, he's sort of like, that's his obsessive, like, kind of blank checky. Right, but that he was sort of like, I need to figure out how to make a movie about the inner lives of these girls. And these magazines can't explain it to me. And these girls can't explain it to me.

Right. And it can't be about having crushes. Right. Right. Right. Right. Being. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. Right. But then also like his insistence on like she can't be like too adorable. Right. You know, but I also don't want her to be unappealing. Right. That he's like going for this like weird like sort of dog whistle tone in the middle.

Right. But I've, she's pretty adorable, right? She's very cute. She's one of my, a character I've really. I want her to be a charming woman. Yeah. Yeah. But especially,

as I said, like just the train that it's like you're seeing her be quiet, sit in her thoughts. These are not things that teenagers do really. Right. So you're younger than teenagers.

Right? Yeah. Contemplate the world around her but also just sort of be quiet. It's just weird to see a lead character be quiet.

And also she's comfortable in a space. Right. She's literally surrounded by these incredible characters. But with no faces. Tilled out. And then the mouse and the bird.

They get to the train station. Almost everyone's gone. There's the lantern with the foot that hops to you. But then when they get to Zeneba, she's like, please can you change them back? And she's like, they can change back whenever they want. That curse is over. Right.

And it's like, right, they're sitting in it too. They're like, yeah, I don't think I'm ready to be a baby yet. You know, I think I need to like run on a little spinning wheel for a while and make like a magical hair tie to strengthen the bonds between us. That's what she gets from Zaniba. Why is Zaniba also living in a Western-style kind of fairytale cottage?

I don't know. Why are Yubaba and Zaniba both kind of Westernized? Right. British or European? Yeah. That's a good point. I don't know.

Yubaba. She has... Let's see. I don't know. No. She is stylistically different from everything else. which i guess is maybe just i love that her phone is a skull as well don't forget about that i forgot about that she grips a skull and yeah oh right yeah yeah yeah yeah it's pretty great yeah that's one of those things you're like oh yeah that's pretty great yeah like that you remember

that there's just a shot and spirited away of like seven giant chicks you know in a bath it's pretty great. Like, you remember that there's just a shot in Spirited Away of, like, seven giant chicks, you know, in a bath. It's just a shot for, like, one second. You just see the big chicks, like, taking a bath. The heads were the thing I couldn't get over. I was like, there's a movie where this happens? Yeah. Right. Yeah, I just like, I like, I mean, whatever.

I love this movie. You know, I like that it just calms down. Yeah. And then Haku is there to fly her home. I mean, whatever. I love this movie. I like that it just calms down. And then Haku is there to fly her home. The shot of him in all majestic Japanese sea dragon glory. Waiting outside the

cabin. It's a real glow up. And she remembers. And as they're flying, she's like, right. He was the podcast. And the scales fall from, she's like, right. He was the podcast. And the scales fall. We already talked about that. It's so emotional. After that, it feels like she's indestructible.

That's why the climax is, that's the climax. The peak thing is just a little coda. You already know there's no problem. She'll be fine. And she doesn't hesitate. She has the answer immediately. She's fully confident. Yubaba's whole intimidation thing is kind of over.

Well, I think part of that is because in that moment, she's in remembering something about herself. She's answering a question about herself. She's one step closer to understanding who she is. And she's firmly two feet, like one in each world. That's sort of her magic power. She's a ghost rider. She's the only one who can walk, that's sort of her magic power. She's a ghost rider. She's the only one who can walk both worlds.

She's Blade. She's a day walker. Yeah, it's great. She realizes the entire test is bullshit. She rejects your premise. None of those pigs are her parents. They all turn into guys who are like, you did it! So here's my question. And then she walks away and everyone cheers. But here's my question. The very end, though?

The end of the movie. Yeah, I want to dig into this. I want to dig into this, too. I know exactly what you're going to say. You know what I'm about? The moment in the tunnel. Go ahead. They're walking back out. You can't look behind you, sort of Orpheus style.

Right, right. Got her, salvaged her parents. Because suddenly she's just back in the field, back in the... Right. And time has passed. Right. It's not like one of those childish fantasies where it's like... That's the big thing I want to talk about.

It was a lickety split, like... Oh, no, I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about something... But I love that, that the car is, like, overgrown. Yeah, right. Like, it's been a minute. It's been, like, months. They go from saying, like, I wonder if the movers, like, if we can still beat the movers,

to them being like, wait, what is vegetation doing around our car? Okay, but here's my thing. They're walking back out through the tunnel, and we see the exact same moment they had when they entered the tunnel. Which is Chihiro grabbing onto her mom. Right. And her mom saying, stop squeezing me so hard or I'm going to trip. Something like that. saying,

stop squeezing me so hard or I'm going to trip. Something like that. Now, in most movies where a child has crossed through a tunnel and gained understanding and confidence

and identity by working in a bathhouse for spirits has saved her parents and is walking back out through the same tunnel to begin her new life. Her behaviors change.

She would not still be holding on to her mom for dear life. She would be walking independently, comfortable, loving her parents, but feeling safe and secure without having to hold on to them. The way I interpret this is that her relationship with her parents is entirely—she's glad to have them back. Right. Like that she's like—right? Like that's why she's grabbing on.

It's not out of fear. It's out of like you're here. Right. Like you're real. I think there's another thing too, which is that her journey has given her an understanding of the adult world. It has not

fundamentally changed how she is going to behave. It is just her understanding of what is inevitable and what she will become. Her experience in the bathhouse is like your experience when your parents have a cocktail party

and you're supposed to be in bed and then you come out and listen at the door and you listen to what adults are really like. Right, right.

And you're like, I now understand it and I'm going to go back to bed. It doesn't mean I'm an adult. I'm going to continue being a child. Right, right. And I think she comes out

of this fully deciding. I still get to be a kid. I certainly see the value in being a kid. Right. Like, I'm in no rush to get there but at least I understand

it now and it scares me less and like with Haku she's like will I ever see you again he's like definitely right

and you're like don't know what that means or how that means but sure yeah you have these does she keep her memories like is it gone

is it sort of part of her but she can't remember all I don't know you know they don't explain that and they don't explain the passage of time. And I love their parents are like, what is this, some kind of prank? The kids put leaves and dirt and dust on your car.

We're going to go leaf that guy's car. Yeah. And then they just drive away. Like, the movie's over with all these questions of, like, how long were they in there? And then there's one of those great songs where it's like. But I love, I mean, I love that it doesn't answer this,

but I also love thinking about like, do they arrive at their home? And it's like, you know, the movers are like, we've been trying you every day for the past two weeks. We reported you dead. Right.

You didn't show up eight months ago. Right. This building is condemned. But honestly, even within the, even within the chronology of life at the bathhouse, it couldn't have been more than a few days, was it? No, I think it's been months.

Oh, I think you're right. I think it's been months. We're not seeing everything. She's been working there for a while. I think it's been a while. Working 9 to 5. So David, what is it about this movie?

Solve it for us. No, I don't. I mean, we've been doing our best for you. I just mean for you, this is one of your favorite movies, right?

It is. Yes, it is. Is it top 10? Yeah. A hundred percent. There's just no question. So what is it?

Well, I mean, we were talking about that, about liminal spaces right the numbers right in each world right so maybe it's that that it partly sort of evokes that for me like that sensation of being a child that sensation of growing up of like things being unknown and discovering the unknown uh-huh i don't know i don't know put me on the spot we've just been talking two hours about what i love I know but now it's like we've been talking tunes

now I really want to like get real like what is it I'm I don't know there's I don't know

I don't mean to like make this movie like a mystical artifact like but it does just feel like it's one of those movies where it's just like it's like lightning in a bottle

it's like lightning in a bottle this is it and I love all the other, I basically love any movie he's ever made. Right. But this is my favorite. But they're not, like I've seen a lot of them

and a lot of them are great, but it's like, this is like on a different level. There is a weird power retained in this movie and unlike the other movies that I think I have seen that have that sort of like magic lightning in a bottle quality, those movies are less elusive I have seen that have that sort of like magic lightning in a bottle quality.

Those movies are less elusive in their meaning, you know? Right. Like films you watch like the original Wizard of Oz where you're like something just works here. There's something they bottled. How much you've heard about how disastrous the production was, you know? Right. It works better than any other adaptation. There's some quality that movie has that the books don't have.

Not to say it's better or worse, but there's some power there. But that as a similar type of story is a far more literal version of a fantastical movie. And so this movie has that weird artist lightning in a bottle thing, which is then intensified by the fact that it's

animated so that there are no mistakes nothing is by chance nothing is right this happened by on camera you know this didn't work everything is the conscious decision making process of people's hands and their brains and their thoughts and feelings and all of that and then you add on to that that lightning in a bottle is happening on a movie that is by its very design kind of obtuse. Right. It is obtuse. And dealing on sort of a subconscious unconscious level. It's incredibly rewarding

infinitely rewarding but also when I feel it I have a very profound emotional reaction to it and I don't like one that I can't explain. One that feels like that's coming from like the bottom of me. That's what I mean like that's my real question. I'm not joking when I say I literally was hacking sobs. Like a switch had been put.

Watching it again last night or the first time? Watching it again. It wasn't last night. It was a couple days ago. And I just had... Anytime I put this on, I feel incredibly happy and serene and involved and all that. And then I'm like, oh, and this is the moment where I cry. Right. Yeah. I mean like I'm probably not going to cry this time.

But there's something almost like the movie is existing like an ASMR video. Like it's like triggering something. Well that's what you're saying with the brainwave thing. Where it's like it somehow has like found some biometric frequency for you that you didn't like you know like you know what I mean. Right. It's permeated your consciousness.

There's something about the combination of the story and the images and the sounds and the music and all of that that just hits you in some weird place in your spine. I guess my question is, because it does feel so extraordinary and just so different from all of his other movies, I wonder if Miyazaki himself was kind of surprised.

Like, whoa, like, this is incredible. I kind of nailed this one. No, you know what I mean? Like, where even the creator would be. Because, you know, if you create something, sometimes you can be like, I don't know where that came from. Yeah. I guess I just had a hot streak. I wonder if it's the same.

But the thing about this movie is animation takes so much planning. Everything has to be accounted for. Just like there's no mistakes because you're not shooting on film, there's also no mistakes. Accidents don't happen in the same kind of way. Yeah, exactly. Accidents don't happen. And this production was so over budget, totally panicking, changing everything at

the last minute. Like the whole story of the production is really wild. And the fact that it wasn't like post-Princess Mononoke, he's like, cool, I have my blank check now. I can do whatever I want. Time for me to make my masterpiece. No, he was like, I retire. Mononoke's it.

Yeah. After Mononoke, he was like, well, I think that's the best I can do. That was his mic drop. I'm over. And then when he came back to it, he was like, I don't know, should I adapt the book? I'm interested in bathhouse doors. What about these girls I vacation with? Like he was like pulling from like eight different things.

It's not like he's like, this has been inside me forever and it's time for it to come out. Finally, spirit of the day. Mononoke was kind of that. He was like, I've been working on this for 25 years. I've never been able to tell this mythic story of Japan and like our relationship with the That movie is the culmination of all

of his artistic interests. And I made an epic, my longest movie, my most sensational movie, you know, and then Spirited Away is like, right,

him being like, but what's behind that bathhouse door? Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the thing you're talking about where sometimes-

Bet you it's a guy with a mustache going- Six arms. The thing you're talking about where sometimes people are like, I have no idea

where that song came from. I am as perplexed by that song existing as you are, and I'm the person who wrote and performed it. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the process of doing it. I don't know why it came to me. I don't know how it came out in the way it did.

But I'm kind of, it's just sort of, as I said, this sort of undeniable object. Yeah. Now let's talk about the money it made. Oh, sure. I mean, we were going to have a real box office game because it did come out in America. But in Japan, obviously, it was, as we've talked about in a previous episode, whichever one we did, the, like, top movies in Japan ever.

Porco Rosso? Yeah. You know, it was an indestructible force. It made $229 million. Uh-huh. Which translates to like 50 billion yen, I think. Yeah. A number that sounds insane.

So obviously made most of its money overseas. It was also highly successful in China. Yeah. Where it only came out this year. It had made $200 million before it was released in the U.S. Or China. Right. Which was unheard of.

It was kind of the first movie to be so huge internationally that it was one of the top grossing films of its year having not been released in the United States. It also did really well in places like Korea and Hong Kong. It did really well in France. It did really well in... It did well everywhere else.

It made about $10 million in America, which was significant. Yes. It was significant. Because the Mononoke had really not, it had been treated like this sort of like arthouse film by Miramax. Right.

This was distributed by Disney, and it did make some money. It had a DVD release that I bought, you know, that was like pretty well done. The dub, I think. Especially post-Oscars, that was huge. The dub is solid. It had a DVD release that I bought that was pretty well done. The dub, I think... Especially post-Oscars, that was huge. The dub is solid. It's not my favorite.

I don't think Dave Chase is particularly good as Chihiro. She's kind of shrill. I don't think I've ever watched it with the English voices. Everyone else is okay. Suzanne Plachette kind of rules. Suzanne Plachette plays Zubaba Zuniba. She's great.

Some of them are good. You know. Jason Marsden, who plays Haku is like one of those guys who was the voice on everything and I remember finding it very distracting. Oh right. Because you're watching it the whole time

going like which cartoon shows he's from? Right, right, right. He's like very recognizable. Yeah. Yeah. So there's that. I'm trying to think. It's an okay.

I mean I saw it. The first time I saw it was actually in Japanese with subtitles in the cinema. Yeah. Good for the Camden Town okay I mean I saw it the first time I saw it was actually in Japanese with subtitles in the cinema good for the Camden Town audience but I've seen the dub because it was on TV

all the time too anyway here is a not that surprising stat obviously the only not obviously but unsurprisingly

the only foreign language film to win the best animated film Oscar also now to date the only hand-drawn film to win. Really? Yeah.

Is that true? Yeah. Oh, that's depressing. It is the only one. Because Wallace and Gromit won that was stop motion. Everything else has been CG. Or like Rango is kind of like mocap-y CG, right? Right.

Yeah. Into the Spider-Verse kind of has elements of all kinds of animation, but it's all made in computers. I mean, the most generous thing you could say about it is a CG film in which they did hand-drawn 2D animation on top of the CG. Right. And then this movie wins Best Animated Feature. It was up against movies that represent sort of all sorts of moments in animation. So you've got Treasure Planet, which is like the dying of the Disney traditional feature.

Yeah, it's like a sci-fi Treasure Island. Oh, we need to have you on for our Treasure Planet episode. That sounds amazing. Spirit Stallion of the Cimarron, which is this very painterly, pretty horse movie. This is a year with five nominees, which very often it's only three nominees in Best Animated. Well, now it's always five, but in the past

it had been usually three. In the past there was some sort of, there had to be enough animated features released Best Animated. Well, now it's always five. But in the past it had been usually three. In the past there was some sort of, there had to be enough animated features released in a year. Yes, there's a qualifying number. Now it's five. This was the first five year though, right? It was the only five year until 2009. Oh, crazy. Okay.

So you had Ice Age, which is like the early DreamWorks kind of like, I don't know. It was not DreamWorks, it was Blue Sky. Yeah, Blue Sky, sorry. It's a totally functional, pleasant movie. And I remember people being afraid it was going to win because it was a massive hit. It was a DreamWorks. It was Blue Sky. Yeah, Blue Sky, sorry. It's a totally functional, pleasant movie. And I remember people being afraid it was going to win because it was a massive hit. It was a huge hit. And this was a non-Pixar year, so it was like there isn't an obvious thing to dominate. But there was Lilo and Stitch, which is a lovely Disney movie.

It's an incredible film. One of the better Disney movies of that era. One of the best Disney films ever, man. Have you seen that movie? No. That movie is the closest Disney has ever come to doing Mia's eye. It's a pretty cute movie. Really?

It's pretty great. Yeah. A little Hawaiian girl meets an alien. They have, you know. But it is a film about like childhood loneliness. It's about a child being raised by her older sister after the parents die. But I remember it was the first award of the night. Cameron Diaz presented it as the sort of standing in for Shrek, I think.

I think she has presented best animated film three times. Yeah, she does a lot. Is she in Shrek? She is Princess Fiona. Princess Fiona? Fiona! Oh, Fiona! Fiona!

I've rescued you from the tower like they do in Disney movies. Smell my farts. Exactly. But I remember she presented it. Get in my belly, Fiona! I was, and I was like,

and Spirited Away won. There was sort of claps. Miyazaki obviously was not there and she was like, okay, and you're sort of like, something significant just happened and It's just sort of like we're just going to move on. Right. Yeah.

Especially after Shrek wins the first year. Right. It's like, oh, we've honored like the totemic figure of animation with an award for his great film. That was the big thing. The stats that people always throw out like, well, you know, Hitchcock never won an Oscar. Right. Cooper never won an Oscar. You know, so like all the great legends of cinema, it shows

you how meaningless this award is. And then you look at Best Animated Film, and they kind of have given it to most of the most important living. Right, all the great animators have won. Right. Even, you know, debating, you know, the most important alive canonical feature animators have all sort of won the Oscar now.

And then you throw in a couple people like, um, fucking, uh, George Miller. You know? And like, Gore Verbinski and people who are kind of overlooked in live action. Like most of Tim Burton and Wes Anderson's – Tim Burton's only Oscar nominations come from animated even though those two films aren't very good. Most of Wes Anderson's nominations come from his animated films. It's an odd phenomenon. That category has kind of mostly gotten it fairly right. Here are the five films, though.

September 20th, 2002, for the box office game. It's a good box office game. Spirit of the Way opens in 18th position on 26th screen. So it's not in the top five. Number one is a comedy that was kind of a phenomenon. In September of 2001. Do you remember this movie? No. What? I never saw it. But it felt like a movie where you were kind of a phenomenon. In September of 2000... Do you remember this movie? No.

I never saw it. But it felt like a movie where you were kind of like, hmm, we kind of have to go see that. But I guess I remember it being around. It was kind of a crossover moment for this kind of movie. September 2002.

I'm sorry. I was thinking Shadow of 9-11. This is September of 2002, and it felt like a watershed thing. Right. And it... Is it a big star? Right. And it, uh, is it, is it a big star?

No. It's not. No, it's an ensemble comedy. It has big actors in it. There's big actors in it. But it is a ensemble comedy about life in a community.

It's like a big, broad, kind of, you know, talky, goofy comedy. There were a bunch of sequels and spinoffs.

Okay, this is the first one? Yeah. Is this its first weekend? Second weekend. What's it doing this weekend? Twelve. So what did it open to? Twenty.

This is all important for me. Twenty. Okay. Gross is 75. The final gross is 75? Yeah. But it gets a bunch of sequels. Oh, is it Barbershop?

Barbershop. A movie I think is really good Barbershop's a great movie it rules but do you know what I mean like when it came out everyone was kind of like oh yeah this is kind of

gonna this is like a big deal like you know what I mean like this kind of a movie hasn't come around in a while I remember that had buzz like it was like they kind of might have

something special here it does have buzz cuts I watched it again on TV recently a movie that fucking slaps it's good. The sequels are mostly kind of like... I think 2 is pretty good.

2's got some bullshit in it. 2's pretty good. We know where I stand on Beauty Shop, unfortunately. Beauty Shop's pretty good. Beauty Shop 3 even is watchable. Malcolm D. Lee. I haven't seen that one. The first one rolled some. Tim Story directed it. Yeah, his best film. Fantastic Four.

Number 2. The kind of movie film. Director of Fantastic Four. Number two. The kind of movie that would be on Netflix now. It would go straight to Netflix. 100%. 100%. It's a comedy about two older actresses who are both big stars. It's kind of like one of those. The Banger Sisters?

The Banger Sisters. The Banger Sisters. Goldie Hawn and Susan Sarandon. Right. Are like two former kind of groupies. They were wild in the 60s. What were those? I know what you're talking about.

But the idea is now Susan Sarandon sold out and become domestic. She's suburban. Lamo and Goldie are still wild. She's like, don't you remember Lamo, and Goldie's still like wild. She's like, don't you remember we used to party and have sex? Both of them with their tattoos? Yeah, their tattoos form a heart.

Right. Oh. But aren't they like, their last names aren't Banger, right? I don't think so. No. But that movie's kind of a flop, and then Goldie Hawn doesn't make another movie until Snatched. Is that right? Yeah.

Like, not a single movie. People were like, oh, maybe Goldie Hawn never makes a movie ever again, and then she's done one since then. Yeah. Really? Three years ago and has not worked again since that movie. No, she played Mrs. Claus in the Christmas Chronicles. It's a cameo role.

I'm sorry. She plays Mrs. Claus in the- Yeah, because Kurt Russell is Mr. Claus. Yeah, I know, but I didn't know she was in it. It's a cameo. Wait, are they married in real life? Yeah. For a million years now.

Yeah. Anyway, I remember that being kind of hyped at the time with like, hey, Goldie Hawn, like respect. And it came out and everyone was like. It was supposed to be like a comeback for her. Like remember Goldie? We all loved her. And then she just disappeared.

Number three. Yeah. Is a phenomenon of 2002. Number three. Just probably one of the craziest phenomenon. big fat greek wedding in its 23rd week yeah 23rd week yeah in its 23rd week it has made 124 million dollars it is the most absurd box office phenomenon of all time we don't talk about a fucking tv sitcom movie about like a Greek lady marries a non-Greek guy and her Greek family Why did everyone go so crazy for it?

It was just one of those things where it came out everyone was kind of like reviews if they were reviews they were like it's cute and then just week after week just built up buzz. There's nothing will ever like nothing will happen like that ever again. It's the box office equivalent of lightning in a bottle.

Like we were talking about Spirited Away being the artistic lightning in a bottle. But there was something about it where it's like, I remember because my dad and I would read the box office together. When it came out and we were looking at like the long box office list and variety. And he was like, whoa, why is my Big Fat Greek Weddings per screen average so high? Like in its first weekend when it came out, he was like, that movie's overperforming for what looks like a very banal sitcom pilot. Right. And then seven months later... It ran

in theaters for a full year. It had outgrossed... Really? Yeah. 52 weeks. Awesome. Is it good? It's perfectly charming. Is it the funniest comedy ever made, yes or no? Yes, unfortunately. Yeah, of course. I mean, the wedding is big and fat. No, it's fine.

I remember seeing it on a plane and laughing. I don't know. I haven't seen it since then. Sounds good to me. That movie would not have a chance to perform that long. No. Today. People were seeing it, like, especially old people were going out and seeing it multiple fucking times. And taking their kids or taking their friends.

My grandma, I think, saw it twice in theaters. Its highest grossing weekend was its 20th weekend. You know what I mean? It never hit number one at the box office. It was number two. It made $14 million. That's the way to do it. But I remember the way that Entertainment Weekly talked about it was it came out the same weekend as The Scorpion King.

The first Dwayne Johnson vehicle. Sure. And The Scorpion King in its first weekend makes $40 something. $36. Okay. I have it right here. And Big Fat Greek Wedding in its first weekend. Open40 something. $36. Okay. I have it right here. And Big Fat Greek Wedding in its first weekend. Opened at 20th.

And made how much? $590,000. Right. And they were like, the big story was how well Scorpion King had opened. And then by the end of its run, Big Fat Greek Wedding had quadrupled. That's so awesome. It made $240 million in America. It made $368 worldwide.

So the only films that beat it that year are Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, and Spider-Man, right? Is that correct? It's the fourth highest grossing film? And Harry Potter. It was the fifth highest. So it's literally like the four biggest franchises. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the Greek wedding.

And then the Greek wedding. And then what if a 35-year-old lady married a like non-greek guy it's not that ludicrous like the crazy thing she did was married a non like an irish guy and the greek family is like was her family like freaking out like why aren't you marrying a guy he's a vegetarian they don't know how to deal with that i can see this movie making a trillion dollars i didn't know he was a vegetarian it was kind of one of those movies also where like my Jewish relatives were like, you know, they're kind of like us. Yeah.

We're like every. I can relate. They're sort of like our people, these Greeks. Everyone's closer. I guess we're not so different after all. But the other crazy thing is she never is able to replicate it. No. She never has another hit.

She finally after 15 years is like, fuck it. I'm doing Big Fat 2. Right. And it performs the exact way you expect that movie to perform like it does what you expected the first movie would have done really which is like oh it like held on pretty well and did like 40 million it made 60 it made 60 that's kind of nuts the crazier phenomenon with big fat greek wedding is the movie comes out the movie happened because tom hanks is married to Rita Wilson, who's Greek.

And it was like a one-woman show that she did or something, right? She came out of the Groundlings Theater. Oh. She was a Groundlings person. And it was her one-woman storytelling show, and Rita Wilson wanted to see it. They saw it, and he was like, oh, this is funny. She could get, let's hire her to write, adapt it. And they hire like a sitcom director to make the movie

and it was just like Tom Hanks' little like he was throwing someone a bone. He had enough clout to give someone. Are you serious? 100%. They're the producers. It's because his wife was Greek and she brought him to the show and he was like, yeah, why not? I'll let this woman direct a movie. She didn't even direct it. They hired a sitcom director. Ed Zwick or Joel Zwick.

Not Ed Zwick of Glory. But the movie comes out, right? It got a little attention because it was Tom Hanks. My dad was like, is that why it's doing well? But when it just seemed like, oh, this will be like a solid little indie programmer. It'll make a million, couple million, you know, end up maybe if it's a really big hit, it ends up at like nine or ten or whatever. It was released by, I think, IFC.

It was released by IFC. I think it funded IFC for a year. So within two months of the movie coming out, maybe even less, CBS was like, you know what? This could be potential for a good sitcom. So they bought the rights to make it into a sitcom because they were like, well, the movie's not going to do great, but the value

is. You could adapt this into a real sustainable. And then a year later, the movie was one of the highest, it remains the highest grossing romantic comedy of all time. Really? Yes. Probably.

And suddenly CBS was sitting on their rights to make a TV show out of it. And they did a TV show where everyone except for the husband returned. Like the biggest movie. John Corbett was like, no thanks. But every other cast member was on it. And the biggest movie was now suddenly on television every

week. A new 30 minutes. Yeah, but it got canceled right away. The first week, the ratings were humongous. It was like the MASH finale. And they were like no show has premiered this huge. 23 million viewers. What? Right. And then by six weeks later, it was canceled. Yeah.

But it went from being like. People saw it and they were like, oh, it's just the movie again? later, it was canceled. Yeah. Yeah. But it went from being like- People saw it and they were like, oh, it's just the movie again? No, don't worry about it. But even a year later, people were done with it. It was like, people were like, never has there been a more sure thing on television. Then it premieres bigger than their expectations. She follows me on Twitter. Should we get her on?

Let's get Nia Ferdowsky on the show. Oh my gosh, yeah. Are you kidding? She might not. Well, maybe, I don't know. Maybe it's tough to talk about. I don't know. It's fascinating.

She hosted SNL. She got nominated for an Oscar. She made five more movies. Yep. And none of them ever had that kind of impact. She's probably, you know, set forever. Yeah. Anyway, that's the story of the third movie.

The fourth movie is about what if, like, Antonio Banderas and Lucy Liu faced off in some sort of gun scenario. We're talking about Ballistic X versus Sever Sever, and I wish you'd give me fewer clues. I just feel like after all that, we kind of need to... Also, I don't know. How do you fucking define Ballistic X vs. Sever? It's based on a Game Boy Advance game. Wait, is that phrase you're saying the name

of the movie? Ballistic, colon, X vs. Sever. It is based on a Game Boy Advance game. I don't know how to process that as language I believe the movie came out before the game did Maybe right around the same time But they had options They were like this game is going to be so fucking huge

We got to beat it to the punch of the movie This is going to be my big fat Greek wedding of games Ballistic X vs Sever Oh I remember that poster And it's one of those things where it's like That's right They're finally going against each other Antonio Banderas

Right Lucy Liu. We've waited for them to clash. But also one of those posters where people looked at the title and they were like, am I supposed to know what any of those words mean? Yeah, that's how I kind of feel like, huh? It's also one of those movies that attracts a reputation because it probably has like 0% of Rotten Tomatoes.

Everyone's like, wow, one of the worst movies of all time. You watch and you're like, oh, this is just like a boring action. It's an airplane movie. It's not like it's terrible. It's just completely anonymous. It's only that no one loved it. Right. Right.

It was directed by someone called Chaos. With a K? With a K. I know that guy. Do you really? You know the director of Ballistic X vs. Severus? Yeah, he never told me

he directed that movie. Wow. Yeah. He also directed Tekken 2. Wow. Number five. Was that its opening weekend? I'm kidding.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't want some crazy street rumors to get started. I was totally ready to believe that. No, sorry. He's a Thai director. I don't know if he is posted up in Brooklyn. All right.

Number five. It's opening weekend, $7 million. Not a big hit. Cost 70. I don't know why it was funded. This is Warner Brothers, like a major studio. Right. Number five.

Big epic. Big Oscar-y kind of epic, but obviously bad because it's getting dumped in September. The Four Feathers? Lord of the Rings? Wait, what?

The Four Feathers. Yes. What's that one? Wes Bentley. It's a classic story. Kate Hudson, Heath Ledger. A famous British adventure novel

that's been adapted into like seven movies. There's a Korda film, right? Yeah. There's multiple silent films. Yeah. This was them doing it again. Heath Ledger, Wes Bentley,

a couple years off of American Beauty. Yeah. And Kate Hudson. The point is those three were like, these are the next three major movie stars. Got it. And it's, you know, they get the feathers because they're cowards,

so they go to war. I believe it's set during the war in Sudan in the late 1800s. I've never seen it. But that is the movie that slows all three of them down. Yeah. And only Ledger ever fully recovers. It was just a big, bloated disaster. It was from the director of Elizabeth, Shakar Kapoor, so he was also seen as like, oh, this

guy can do you a period. But I think everyone thought these are three incredibly attractive, charismatic people who also have broken out in serious films. They are going to be classical movie stars. You know, they're going to be box office draws in like prestige films. Let's make it happen. Do intelligent work.

And it just like, is like a poof. Poof. It's a total poof. So there you go. Four feathers. Yeah, open to $6 million.

That's a huge disaster. A huge disaster. Yeah. Yeah, a colossal disaster. You've got one hour photo. You've got signs. You've got swim fan. Remember that one?

That sounds familiar. Online stalker movie. Yeah, yeah. It's like the first dangers of the internet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. You have Trapped, where Kevin Bacon traps Charlize Theron. Is that movie not directed by someone weird?

I don't know. I feel like it is. Yeah, it's crazy. Big Fat Greek Wedding almost pulled off the thing, which as a child who tracked the box office with my father was the most exciting thing I'd ever seen. Oh, boy. Here we go. What? Because this was happening the same summer as the Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire home run thing.

Okay. Where every day my dad and my brother would- No, it wasn't. Not this wasn't. 98. Yeah, 98. The thing I'm about to tell you. Oh, okay.

Okay? I thought you were talking about- It was like my dad and my brother would look at the newspaper and go like, fuck, they're both, they're coming up. They're coming up on the record. Right, right. And then we'd flip to the back page and my dad and I would go like, look at this thing that's happening, which was something about Mary

opened at number six at the box office and every week went up one position. And it was perfect. It went like six. Right, yeah, yeah. Surprised this movie didn't open better. Right.

And then like the word of mouth was good and it was like five. Right. And then my dad and I going to see it and being like, this has got to be number one next weekend, right? No, it was four. And three. You're talking all this stuff

about how you had such a, it sounds like you had a kind of fun childhood. There were parts. Alright. There were parts. Tracking box office receipts with your dad every day, that sounds kind of fun. That was, I mean, that was the cornerstone of my childhood. Oh, okay. But, uh. That's all there was? Yeah. No, no, no, no. I had a fine enough childhood. I was just a very

sad and scared child. But I felt internal turmoil. I see just a very sad and scared child. I got it. Okay. But I felt internal turmoil. I see. But my Big Fat Greek wedding almost pulled it off and the thing that fucked it over

was SwimFam. SwimFam like blocked number one. It wasn't as clean but once it broke into the top ten it kept on moving up and then there was

the series of like now it's four now it's three now it's two and everyone's like it's finally going to be the weekend the Big Fat Greek Wedding.

Six months later is number one. And Swimfan beat it by like a million dollars. They got Swimfan. What a great episode. Yeah, we're done. Wait, hold on. We're not quite done. I have a coda.

Okay. Ben's been pointing at his watch. That doesn't exist. This will be quick. Ben's now giving a thumbs up. Okay. So I wanted to, at the end of his review in 2003 remember nigel andrew said i can't imagine ever loving a movie more

so in preparation for this episode i decided to contact him and find out if he has ever loved a movie more he is not online he has no social media preference no twitter no. So in order to send a letter to the editor of the Financial Times, I had to sign up for a subscription to the Financial Times, which is $1 for four weeks and then $65 for every month thereafter. So I've set an alarm to cancel the subscription. You can put it on the blank check expense. So I wrote to the editor of the Financial Times and said, please forward this to Nigel Andrews.

Did not expect to hear back, but let's see what happens. My email said, please forward this to Nigel Andrews. Did not expect to hear back, but let's see what happens. My email said, Dear Mr. Andrews, in your 2003 review of Spirited Away, you wrote, I don't expect ever to love a movie more, but then again, maybe I shall. I've always loved this line. Indeed, I still have a clipping of your original review from the FT, but now I have to know it's been 16 years. Have you found a movie you love more than Miyazaki's? Best regards, David Reese.

I got an email from the letters editor said, please find Nigel's answer below. Best wishes, Nicola. His answer, no. That's still the best. Pure magic for grownups and children alike. At the same time, like so many, I wouldn't want to be stranded on a desert island

without Vertigo and Citizen Kane. Fair. Wow. So there you go. A little respect to the, you know. But you know what the real profundity of that review and his star rating is? What's that?

That he's essentially saying, I can only do this one time. Oh, totally. I can only break the rules one time. And I have, I'm going into this review as a professional critic who has not only been seeing movies

on the job for probably several decades at this point, but also has like delved back into film history. I'm thinking about Citizen Kane. I'm thinking about Vertigo Films. I never got the chance to review. Right.

But my entire star rating system is essentially based on those movies being the best a thing can be. They're the hypothetical five. Yeah. And I'm going to say that only one time in history, I hope I'm correct, a movie will warrant the sixth star. I mean, that's why it's so awesome. It's unbelievable. Yeah.

Wow, what a great way to end. I agree. And look at what we would have missed, Ben, if we listened to the rap tap tapping of your watch That's not true at all, it was just a reminder a friendly reminder that we've been recording for 2 hours and 30 minutes Yeah!

Great job! Come on Ben! I feel like I didn't say anything smart There's one thing I wanted to say If this is a critique of Japan's current economy and acquisitiveness, it's ironic that then she has to prove her worth by going to work in a service economy. Yeah. I don't know. It's a lot to think about.

It's how it goes. David, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here, David. It was really fun. Do you have anything you want to plug? Dicktown. When is Dicktown coming out? First of all, you can't. I can having me. Thank you for being here, David. It was really fun. Do you have anything you want to plug? Dicktown, when is Dicktown coming out?

First of all, you can't, I don't. I can't say it. I don't think so. Leap it out then. Well, when, the fall, but they haven't made it official. So, sorry. Well, this episode is coming out in the fall. We will communicate with you. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And either by the time this episode comes out, you will hear the thing I said and you'll know when it's released. This will come out September 29th. Hopefully it'll be out by then. Okay. Griffin and I were on a cartoon together. It's your cartoon. You made fun of my droopy balls. It was a career highlight. It's your cartoon, your show with fellow

friend of the podcast, John Hodgman. And I am on one episode making fun of your droopy balls. Exactly. Which is very fun. It was an honor and privilege that you let me make fun of your droopy balls. Exactly. Which is very fun. It was an honor and privilege that you let me make fun of your droopy balls. Was it a puzzle or a dream? Both. Yeah.

I had to solve the puzzle in order to achieve a dream state. To live the dream. Yes, to live the dream. Right. And a perpetual plug, if you have any way to watch Going Deep, it remains one of my favorite shows of the decade. Thank you very much. Is it any easier to find?

No. I feel like sometimes it cycles in and out of availability. I kind of just want to dump it all on Vimeo. You kind of think you should. Right?

Yeah. Networks don't remember they made that. I really... I'm not just saying Maybe I'll just put it all on Vimeo. It's one of the shows

that does give me such... leaves me in such a state of relaxation that I find really comforting and reassuring while also being, like, informative. I wish there were 800 episodes. Like, I wish I was able to watch it all the time. So do I.

It was really fun. But thank you for your support of it. It's a great show, and people should seek it out, and they should seek out the other show, which maybe has been bleeped at this point. Right. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to

Andrew Fraguto for social media, Joe Bone and Pat Reynolds for artwork, Lane Montgomery for a theme song. Go to blankies.reddit.com for some real nerdy shit. Go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts. Go to Patreon for our blank check special features where right now we're up to Go to Patreon for our Blank Check special features.

Where right now, we're up to... What Marvel movie? We just did Black Panther, so I guess Ant-Man is next, or whatever the fuck. Whatever's after Black Panther. Sure. That one. Infinity War. Infinity War. Get ready for an Infinity War commentary.

Right. I'll be grumpy. Boy. Can't wait. Yep. Don't like that movie. He doesn't like it. Yeah't wait don't like that movie he doesn't like it next week the titular episode Howl's Moving Castle

that's right with Erlich he's ready and as always Shrek Flushed and outhouse flushing sound holy fuck that is

and he pulls his wedgie out that is the the early 2000s like defined but this is such a great contrast to the movie we're about to talk about that's why I wanted to show you it right before year same year wow but you know what i mean like i because when shrek became a meme again and i like wrote an article where i was trying to be like why is shrek like funny now like why you know

everyone i talked to was like it is we all grew up we were all like 13 then or younger probably younger we are recording we're recording? Let me do the introduction and I want to get back into this. Okay. Alright. Go ahead. Okay. I can't believe that's actually how Shrek the famous movie opens. Yes.

So everyone of a certain age that's like a foundational moment of this is what humor is. The combination of a CG animated film, sort of referential, sort of family guy style humor. Hold up for one second. And Smash Mouth's all star. Okay.

What are you trying to do? Start the podcast. We're starting the podcast. It started. Are you forgetting how the podcast usually starts? Usually you do the intro like five minutes in. There's something that happens before that. Starts with him taking a huge dump in an outhouse.

Yeah. I'm sorry. Okay. Okay. Do the quote. I'm sorry. Ben put this all at the end of the episode. Okay.

Now the episode's going to start.