Blank Check with Griffin & David - Star 80 with Julie Klausner

Episode Date: July 31, 2022

Oof - this is a tough one. Incredibly divisive, is “STAR 80” a darkly cynical triumph about the perils of Hollywood and the failings of men? Or is it a too-sympathetic “Portrait of An Incel as a who cares?!” per our guest Julie Klausner? Join us for a very spirited discussion about Fosse’s difficult last film, where we touch upon the dangers of the true crime genre, the tendency for male creatives to prioritize the male perspective, and the ways in which this film complicates the fascinating legacy of Fosse’s collaborative relationships with women. Plus, we offer our final Fosse rankings, and we ponder several tantalizing “what ifs?” about the unrealized projects lost to history after his death in 1987. Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

I can take a bragging podcast. I can take a bragging podcast. I can take a conniving podcast. I just can't stomach a sentimental podcast. Oh, very nice. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I was also thinking, things change.

I'm not the same podcast I was in Vancouver. That is good, actually. That one's funny, too. Maybe I should have gone with that. I gave you both options. Yeah. But you had a little Eric Roberts you wanted to do well i mean that's actually right right that's the uh the doctor right character i'm worried about doing eric roberts like i feel like if you do even an

impression of snyder in this movie you maybe never come back from that right you get evil well did this movie make him evil is he evil is eric roberts evil or does he just look evil and please weigh in guys i think he's at the very least broken is that fair can i weigh in on this please yes yes yes yep yep yeah because like this is what his this is like one of his first ever movie like he's only like three movies in yeah has pope of greenwich village no that's that's the next year okay he had to be persuaded to take this role yes so he was bright enough to know this is not a sympathetic one yes but based on what i've read about him he's bad news and then i would even say in this movie i i found myself thinking on the way over here

it would have been interesting if this was sort of like more influenced by travis fickle as a performance choice see I think it's an unbelievable performance. You do? I do. I do. I think it's an incredible performance, but I think it's the kind of performance that's like ruinous for a career.

And I think, you know, there's all the dumb hand-wringing that happens over like when people play the Joker, they never come back from that. And I'm like, he's a fucking clown with face paint. Like even as extreme as you're going to make him, people know what movie they're in. Right. And this is a performance I'm watching where I'm like, I don't know clown with face paint. Like, even as extreme as you're going to make him, people know what movie they're in. Right.

And this is a performance I watch where I'm like, I don't know how you come back from this. Yeah. I don't know how you play this this thoroughly and don't have it somehow permanently alter your brain. And he trusted Fosse when he agreed to it, and I don't think Fosse did well by him. And I also think Rupert Pupkin is another version

of who this character could have been, but he was just following orders. I mean, even more than the sort of the violence, obviously, and the ugliness of the character and whatever, the desperation of this guy. Yeah. Like every scene of this movie is like the porno scene in Taxi Driver, but amped up to 75. Yeah. You're just like, Jesus Christ, guy, please. You're making me so fucking uncomfortable. Combined with the firework, the firecracker scene in Boogie Nights. Yes to 75. Yeah. Where you're just like, Jesus Christ, guy, please. You're making me so fucking uncomfortable.

Combined with the firework, the firecracker scene in Boogie Nights. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's a good one where you're just like, I want to turn this off

because I don't want to look at this guy anymore. He's just making me feel awful. Let's get to it right away because this is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies,

directors who have massive success early on in their careers. They're given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce. Baby. Cool. This is a mini-series on the films of Bob Fosse. It is called Pod That Jazz

Cast. That's right. This is our final episode. Sadly. This is our final movie. Career cut short. Started late making movies. Died young. Yeah. Ish. Young-ish. Young-ish. What was he? Let's find out.

He was old for him. The fact that he got to that decade is kind of amazing. That's a good point. Yeah. I mean, he will, I'll give you the research, but he essentially expected to be dead after all that jazz. Right. And then he was like, I'm still alive.

I made the movie where I'm dead. I don't know what to do now. Like, I figured this was it for me all the jazz has perhaps the greatest final film energy of all time right uh but then he made another movie and then he died the other thing is i always thought because i mean this movie was so damaging to his career that i was like he made this movie and everyone hated it and then he died immediately and it's like no he lived for like another five years working on other stuff five six years he just never could get a movie made again yeah he went back to the stage and it this movie is a shame for reasons that we'll get into but

so here's the thing i love this movie i think this is a great movie but i think this movie is almost unbearable to watch i think this movie is like staring into the sun i think it's one of the darkest films ever very upset it is like brutal and unpleasant sun i think it's one of the darkest films ever very upset it is like brutal and unpleasant i do think it's incredible i i will admit watching it this time i like couldn't even fully focus on it you think for the sake of my sanity you really think this is a fabulous incredible movie i do i do but i it's the kind of film that i don't ever feel like i can actually endorse or recommend to people. Recommend to people. Why would you recommend this movie to someone?

Not even because of what it says about me. But I'm just like, I mean, I don't know what even to tell you. Grueling, unpleasant. Yeah. Yes. Like the first time I saw this movie, it fucked me up for like a week. It really haunted me. And mind you, in the wake of watching it, I went deep into like, I read the fucking Bogdanovich book. You know, and I watched Galaxina. I was just like so sort of obsessed with the tragedy of the whole fucking thing.

Red, like killing of a playmate, like all the stuff sort of surrounding it. But I spent a week where I was like really fucking haunted by it. And so even in preparation for this podcast, I was like, I'm gonna fucking half watch it because if I give it full attention, I won't be able to record tomorrow.

If I like fully engage with this thing, I will be too haunted by it to engage. Or at least haunted by the soundtrack. All of it. One of the worst soundtracks from the best filmmakers. And by the way, I do want to mention, I really do appreciate you giving Bob Fosse the credit as the filmmaker he was. And I do think he is as highly regarded in the theater community. Obviously, no one could get enough of sucking his dick in that world. He, I do think, is incredibly underrated as a filmmaker. I agree. I think so, too. And I think part of it is just that his legacy is so large in theater that people come to conclusions of what they think he must have been as a filmmaker. You know?

talk about his filmmaking, not even, you know, Pauline Kael would call them tricks. Sure. The skill and the talent in his quiver using it towards such a nasty, brutal, I don't want to say a trivial story, but when I think about what's a great movie, I think, why was this made? What's the point of this? What are we taking away as human beings? It's the fascinating thing of like, along with just the horrible tragedy of Dorothy Stratton's death two huge directing

careers are essentially immediately killed in the wake of this thing right well like bogdanovich essentially put into a coma at least with bogdanovich yeah yeah and never like fully recovered cult of personality wise he's been intact and you know yeah he kind of recovered it but but yes certainly he never was a major no filmmaker and he got to marry her sister so is it really

a sad story and then the Fosse thing like when you read interviews with Bogdanovich before he died about like

when Stratton would always come up and they'd ask him about Star 80 and he'd be like I was so fucking angry he would do that that he would do that

to another filmmaker that he framed it not that they were friends but like this right like the brotherhood of directors right and he said like and he got exactly what he deserved everyone hated the fucking movie and destroyed his career and he died that reminds me of in anatomy of a murder when they're prosecuting the they're like let's think about ruining a man's life yeah before we convict this person of rape and he's like anyone want to talk about the woman? Absolutely. Absolutely.

But it is to another filmmaker, too. It is fascinating that I do think a lot of the response to this movie was, well, Bob Fosse brought this on himself. He cursed himself. Why would he do this? He has the written and directed by credit. And it's his last movie. And it is, I mean, he really went into this, you know, guns blazing. I'm going gonna get the rights

to this article i don't care if i have to call her dorothy's mother i'm telling this story and i am not i'm disappointed that that he i'm this movie breaks my heart and he dies restaging sweet charity yes which is essentially the thing he was trying to avoid doing as a film but not as a show. They're two completely different entities. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And yes, he dies at Gwen Verdon's arm.

There's a certain poetry to the whole fucking thing. But I also think probably by his own admission at that point in his career, it's like the last thing I want to do is have to revisit my past works. We can get into it. There are many things he did wrong. To his own fault. Look, our guest today from Double Threat. Hi. The TV show Difficult People. Julie Clouster is here. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Look, our guest today from Double Threat. Hi. Julie Clouster is here.

I'm delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Hi, Julie. Second we announced we were doing Balfasi, everyone said... Julie better be on one of these. It better. Julie's doing one of these. So kind.

I really do appreciate it. 100%. I have to have you here for Star 80. Yeah, this movie bums me out. It's a bummer. Yeah, don't. I don't know No my Eric Roberts question

Just to go back to that Is like I feel like in the 80s He was considered A major talent Yeah He was nominated for an Oscar For Runaway Train

Does Runaway Train Happen before this No after Jesus I'm saying like This is very very early In his career He took it to get an Oscar

This Oh 100% Everyone making this movie Thinks they're getting Oscar nominations Yeah But like in the 80s he is you know a talent he's seen as a talent and then when is it that he then becomes seen as

on set nightmare you don't want eric rob it's like late 80s early 90s it's it's a very similar arc to mickey rourke i think because you don't want to deal with that guy it's not like at some point the guy has a mental break and then becomes too difficult relative to his talent it's that there's like 10 years of everyone being like this guy's a fucking movie star if only he could get his demons in check right and not only does he never get his demons in check but he never becomes like a commercial star never he's never worth enough money to the studio to put up with his bullshit. He never stops working. No.

And then he just becomes like the guy who makes like a million directed video movies a year. And it's like, fun fact, he's, you know, related to Julia Roberts. And then he'll pop up. Oh,

okay. He's Julia Roberts' brother. Interesting. And Emma Roberts' father. Yes, he's Emma Roberts' father. Right. Julia Roberts was like his

annoying kid sister who would be on set and people eric roberts's sister is here like eric roberts has an oscar nomination essentially like 10 years before pretty woman right well five runway trains what it's a runaway train is 1985 okay i mean, but there's even like, you had like Christopher Nolan giving him a good little supporting part in Dark Knight and being like, Eric Roberts reclamation project. Just a little bit. Right, doesn't really go anywhere.

Mickey Rourke, when he was winning all his fucking wrestler awards, kept on being like, do you remember this? In all of his speeches, he was like, one of the greatest undersung actors is Eric Roberts. You gave me another chance.

You should give Eric Roberts another chance. and the main thing that translated into was he got stallone to hire eric roberts in the expendables yeah he is in the expendable i mean he currently has like 40 movies 50 60 movies in production many movies well i just don't understand it anyway i i was i was just shocked that this was so early in his career that he was actually almost like an ingenue. So what does he do before this? Before this, he's in King of the Gypsies, which he gets a Golden Globe New Star nomination for, and then something called Raggedy Man, which is with Sissy Spacek,

where he's sort of the, you know... Raggedy Man? Co-lead. Yeah, he's the Raggedy Man. Yeah, it's like Raggedy Ann. That's what it is. It's just... It's dark and gritty. I mean, God, you know, Sgedy Man? Yeah, he's the Raggedy Man. Yeah, it's like Raggedy Ann. That's what it is. It's just, no, it's... It's dark and gritty. I mean, God, you know, Sissy Spacek, it's directed by Jack Fisk,

her husband. Okay, sounds kind of... Divorced mother and telephone switchboard operator living with her two sons in a small town during World War II? Sounds charming. It was her follow-up to Coal Miner's Daughter. Okay. So it's like a... Anyway's Daughter And then Star 80 That's his first three movies

And then Pope of Greenwich Village, Coca-Cola Kid, Runaway Train He gets an Oscar nomination And everything after that I've never heard of Like never heard of any of these movies The moment they go congratulations Eric you've made it He doesn't give another memorable performance Until it's like He's the villain in like The Specialist

Or Heaven's Prisoners But even at that point I think people are going like Is this where this guy was supposed to end up performance until it's like he's the villain in like the specialist or right right heaven's prisoners but even at that point i think people are going like is this where this guy was supposed to end up right ask sandy dennis if he was worth it yeah i mean there are so many there are parallels right stories yes especially when you think about this movie being about people that hang out in la for long enough to get cast unless they're horribly unpleasant in which case even LA is like you are not enough of a mensch even to hang out at the Playboy Mansion. You creep

us out. Yeah. I'm now just I didn't realize Emma Roberts is with Garrett Hedlund? Yeah they are married and have a baby? Rhodes. Rhodes Hedlund. Rhodes? R-H-O-D-E-S? Correct. Wow. Yes. And apparently him and Julia Roberts. Middle Headland. Rhodes? R-H-O-D-E-S? Correct. Wow. Yes. And apparently him and Julia Robertson...

Yeah, middle name scholar. Talk for a while. Yeah, they're being aspirational. Yeah. Four wives, or no, no, three wives. He and Julia didn't talk for like decades, right? And it was sort of when Emma was older that I think the plea was made for the sake of her. He made that t-shirt for her that said,

I mean, he just seems like a huge bummer to me. But this performance is certainly transfixing. Snyder was worse. Yeah, that guy is worse. That guy's really bad, Paul Snyder. I think one of the things that curses him with this performance, even though I'm realizing that his sort of most beloved performances were after this, is this maybe reveals something inherent in him. You know, I'm not accusing him of crimes, but I'm just like... You play a role like this and people are just like, now you're that guy to me and I can't shake that. There's something that feels very honest in this

performance that does not feel like acting. Where there's an energy that he is revealing within himself that is just, you can't totally forget. You know? It is just like, this performance and this movie feel like staring into the sun for me. And I think it's

that difference of like, he and Rourke were both trying to be these, like, troubled James Deeny leading men, but Rourke never gave a performance that bummed you out this fucking much. There was always this sort of, like, sad poetry to Rourke, and then Roberts, you just have this back of your head. I mean, like, Ebert, when this movie came out,

went on a whole thing of, like, this is the best performance of the year. How is this being snubbed? And he's just, like, he's just too much of a creep people don't want to yeah it's unwatchable they don't want to give him any credit for doing something this unpleasant can i give you guys a little context on star 80 please just just to help especially a movie like this so david david's rubbing his temples already trying to dig into this like i said wow fossey made all that jazz now i'm imagining julia you enjoy the film all that jazz. Now, I'm imagining, Julia, you enjoy the film All That Jazz.

Oh, it's the best ever. I call this movie Oh, That Incel. Indeed. You wrote a really good piece for the New Yorker that everyone should look up about when the Quad did a Fosse film festival. I saw all of them and I had never seen... You did the Fosse diary. Yeah, and I'd never seen Star 80 before and I was as turned

off as you, but I did not walk away with a sense of this being a great film. I can't even imagine what it feels like to watch in a room with other people also. I mean, think about watching the news about a shooting or Sure, or

Georgie Scott having to watch the video of his daughter in hardcore. No, that was great. She was having a great time. Come on, she had her bush and everything. That was terrific. Hardcore's camp. This was, oh, this happens every day.

And Fosse, with all of his access to style and storytelling, decided to make sure people knew that Dorothy Stratton was raped after she was murdered. It is bizarre how transfixed so many people were by this story and by her. It is. I mean, yeah, it's... Well, we can talk about it.

He makes all that jazz. There's no planned follow-up. There's nothing else. His planned follow-up is great. Right, exactly. According to Lynn Lovett, who is his script supervisor and one of his loyalists,

she says, I think he was almost embarrassed to still be alive after all that jazz. So he eventually is like, all right, what am I going to do? He thinks about doing a ballet at the Joffrey. He thinks about doing a musical adaptation of Big Deal on Madonna Street

called Big Deal. Okay. I think that does eventually become a project. Exactly. You know, he thinks about Cy Coleman's musical Atlantic City, which he was sort of like, my heart wasn't in it. I whatever, you know, that doesn't come together. He's asked to do Chicago as a movie with Goldie Hawn and Liza Minnelli.

I mean. Which soundsi. I mean, which sounds fun. I mean, but he was kind of like, no, I don't fucking do that. Like I don't do stage to movie. Like I do something else.

Right. Like that's not the Bob Fosse way. I can't get it up again for old material. It's like trying to go back to an old girlfriend. That's his quote. And his old, it was his old girlfriend, his dream project,

not his. Yeah. So Patty Shiafsky, his, his drinking buddy slash mentor slash Hollywood whatever. Slash first name that comes up after the credits, thanks to Patty Chayefsky. Yes. Dedicated to, really? Again, you know this was about a woman, right? He slides across.

A human woman. The Pulitzer Prize winning Death of a Playmate article in the Village Voice. And Fosse says unsurprisingly, maybe to Julie, maybe to all of us, I really identified with Paul Snyder when I read this because he was

trying to get in, not like I've been excluded that much, but there's just I think he was just like, I get the Hollywood insanity of this man. And I think Paul Snyder is how he fears he is perceived. I think it's exactly who he fears. He's a schmucky guy. I believe that his quote, which is gross in its own right, was he is who I would be if I were not successful.

Yes. Right. Exactly. Which is grounds for prison. Go to actual prison. There's the moment he's cross-cutting between the sexual assault of her dead body, of her corpse, and then Hefner looking over

the contact sheet, and the Roger Rees, not Peter Bogdanovich character in the editing room, and they're both very serene and at peace, and it does feel like that's the exact point Fosse's making is thank God I had talent and I found a thing I did well.

It's upsetting. But also, these poor guys haven't learned yet and they're not going to be okay. Right. This is going to destroy them. Yeah, there is. Don't you think of the great man? There's doom surrounding everything. Her mother was not in that montage. Her cute little sister. Nope. Future Mrs. Bogdanovich

was not. Their pain is irrelevant. Yes. Future Mrs. Bogdanovich was not. Their pain is irrelevant. Yes. Well, her sister was like a child, right? Yes. But she would learn about it. No, no, no.

Oh, no, 100%. And would soon be a bride, which is really the happy ending, as I mentioned. But yes, Fosse's take is basically like, look, if they had accepted him

into Hollywood, this probably wouldn't have happened. This fascinates him for whatever reason. He writes, he gets the rights to the article. It's almost a Hitler painting thing for him. Or Charles Manson succeeding in the recording. Yeah, Charles Manson dropping an album, whatever.

But the answer is always like, A, the person wasn't good at the thing. And B, and with Paul Snyder, it was even more nebulous. What is the thing? He was a pimp. Right, but it was like, you just want to be successful. You want to make money off of other people. You want to be respected. Which is a time-honored tradition in Hollywood, being a barnacle.

There wasn't even a failed art that he was trying to do that he could put his finger on, right? There was not a creative pursuit, yes. And then the additional thing is, like, when people say, like, man, if Hitler just fucking got into art school, all of that would have been avoided. It's like you're making it sound like it was just some judgmental person behind a desk who didn't like their fucking packet. A gatekeeping girl boss. Versus that, like, perhaps these people emanated energy that turned off everyone around them their entire lives. And it wasn't that they were turned evil Joker style.

Anti-social. Yeah, anti-social. To a vat of rejection. Right. Abuser, violent abuser sociopath. That's the thing that I do think Roberts gets too well. Is this guy immediately makes you want to peel your skin off. Right.

So why am I hanging out with him for an hour and 45 minutes? Well. Well, that's what audiences are certainly asking. Yes. They're filing out of the theater. Yeah. Or not filing out of the theater Or not filing out of the theater Filing out of the theater into a different movie

30 seconds in And expecting my sympathy towards him Because he really does get the Roy Scheider treatment In this I don't know if I feel any sympathy for him He frightens me in this movie No, no, but I'm saying Fosse does And that is so gross to me

I think Fosse I think, look I really think this movie is just like a total poison pill movie from Fosse, right? It's just like this industry is sick. It's disgusting. Right. You know, like I, that's more what.

But he was like that in Vancouver. What was his excuse in Vancouver? Well, no, I mean, Bob Fosse certainly is a complicated human being. There's no question. But like, I don't, I don't, I don't see a lot of sympathy But no I know what you're saying Julie

It's like it is fascinating But very dark Portrait of an incel as a who cares Right he goes deep into this Research process right He gets all the police reports He gets taped interviews Access to the house where she was murdered

And raped Well he breaks into that house. Yes. Which which we'll get to, which is intense. He gets killing of a unicorn. Is that published after the movie comes out? Yeah, because that movie is right. That's his response.

That book is partly Bogdanovich being like, I'm going to set the record straight, which also nobody needed. No. Quiet. No. You be quiet as well. Agree. No. And have you read that, Julie?

I've read the Village Voice article that the film was based on. The Bogdanovich book is perhaps the most upsetting piece of art I've ever come across. What about the film that he made that was shelved and bought back and bankrupted? They all laughed. Have you seen that? I have seen that. Yeah. And I've seen Galaxina, which is the sci-fi movie they don't really cover in this.

I haven't seen the horror movie. Yeah.'t seen the fantasy island she guessed you know what i mean like no they're like two significant film roles before the bogdanovich movie they all laughed i know a lot of people that's what it's called yes yes that's like a scene is sort of like right it's been reclaimed i i feel just watching it it's not even like i'm making an intellectual judgment emotionally i just the thing feels so haunted to me right that i cannot especially that he tried to like valley of the gulf create it and yeah yeah you know like bring it out and like retitle it or what you know like do the thing where he bought the phone back from the studio because they didn't want to release it all his money murdered and. Because she had been murdered. And he, yeah, bankrupted himself trying to self-release it.

I find that too haunting. The Bogdanovich book is an even more extreme version of what you're talking about. It's like, do you not understand that I'm the real victim of this? I understood her better

than anyone else. Absolutely. The Bogdanovich, I mean, that guy's a nightmare. The other thing about it that's just horrifying is the way he keeps on speaking about her when it was like they were together for 10 weeks or something. It was like he was the only person who truly understood her.

We saved her. Right. He saved her. Unsuccessfully saved. Right. This whole thing where it's like you you. Right. But he has this complex that he saved her, even though directly leads to her death.

And then the other thing is he speaks about her like she's his daughter and he is proud of how smart she was when he would introduce her to friends and he would make her read books and he'd be like, see, she got it. These relationships of his are so creepy. Creepy. And I don't want to judge him for marrying her, her sister. I that's absolutely his business. I just don't like that we're focused on the men around her. Absolutely. Yes.

Absolutely. Yes. But this is the syndrome of these beautiful women, and they become these icons where we don't know anything about them. Right. They were murdered, but they were still beautiful. These angels with halos around them where we just see pictures of them. You're like, oh.

And then you get weird legends around them. All that shit. That's clearly what's going on here. Bob Fosse writes a script, passes it to Paddy Chayefsky, being like, can you punch this up? Paddy Chayefsky says, it's fine. You don't. It's perfect. No, no.

Don't touch it. But Paddy Chayefsky. And then he puts on gloves and goes into a fucking chemical bath. Patty Shacharsky had just worked on Altered States, which is his last movie, which he hates the director so much. He hates how it ends up that he takes his name off the movie. And then he dies in 1991 of cancer. So, like, that casts this weird Paul over things. I feel like he's gone now.

A weirder Paul than Paul Snyder. Maybe. Maybe a weirder Paul than Paul Snyder. Paul Sny. Maybe. Maybe a weirder Paul than Paul Snyder. Paul Snyder's so run of the, there's a million guys like that. At Paddy Shajewski's funeral, Fosse famously dances, said he had promised him

if he died, if Paddy died first, he would do his last public appearance as a dancer at his funeral. Yeah. Apparently he danced for 30 seconds about it. 30 seconds, there was nothing funny about it,

Bob made it totally appropriate That's E.L. Doctorow For my money, the most touching moment The Fosse-Verdon series Which you were in As one of the Burlesque women That assaulted him

When he was a young man Was that fun to make? Yes, I was very honored to be involved with it did that come about from your love of fossy like yes and and and thomas or tommy kale and and lynn were very kind and um welcoming me to the set not just for my role but when they filmed the all that jazz um moment and fossy's daughter was in the audience and lynn and lynn got to do the run and then sam rockwell got to do the run and then tommy kale got to do the run in the audience and i was very honored to be um a part of that that's with nicole there yeah it was very cool yeah

this movie is not commercially appealing obviously obviously. This is not an interesting project, but Alan Ladd Jr., crazy old Alan Ladd Jr., over at the Ladd Company, which is this point at Warner Brothers, gives him an $11 million budget, gives him a $1 million salary to direct, bossy's highest ever,

and gives him final cut. It's just these days where Alan Ladd was just sort of like, well, you're an artist. Well, and Ladd had also just saved all that jazz and that fucking paid off beautifully for him so you do understand him being like to fucking blank check says whatever if he wants to do it he'll fucking make it work which all those guys always cite alan ladd as like the last of a breed who would just believe in a filmmaker that much the end of the 70s yeah yeah he was the last

guy standing from that whole era you have to agree to not use peter bradinovich's name not to use dorothy's mother's name right right you know they're credited as dorothy's mother they never say her name correct um and then they start they change the siblings names too sure right then they start shooting the movie and guess what bob fossey was really annoying the whole time it's like the research every single time it's like and he was this kind of like crazy tyrant who was very difficult to work with and yes he made the location scout break into the murder home without a permit and uh you know take pictures and like make sure that they have like the carpet exactly the same and everything right like you know like this like detailed recreation of the make sure that they have, like, the carpet exactly the same and everything, right? Like, you know, like, this, like, detailed recreation of the crime scenes.

Very, very creepy. To be fair, the Village Voice article, which I think is a very well-written article, described their, like, I think at one point she mentions that her body was uncharacteristically and rigor mortis instead of, you know,

just kind of, like, translucent and rec that have, you know, just kind of like translucent and reclining and, you know, so I don't completely blame him for being interested in that detail of an article written by a woman. But his attention to the detail of it and the sexual violence of it and combining the two in a you know lavish revolting way is i think unforgivable well it's the whole thing the the fossey thing he loves and all of the movies other than sweet charity where it's like i'm dealing with different temporalities i'm different dealing with different states of reality right you're sort of doing this like parallel editing between these different threads this movie you have the interview, the sort of superstructure

that he loves so much, where I believe, once again, he is the pioneer of boys. When you see Lenny, you remember the first time I ever saw Chevy Chase being a young man,

thinking, oh, this is where this comes from. Right. Right. You like Lenny? How do you feel about Lenny? I think it's a masterpiece. I think it could,

I think it could lose 45 minutes. I think you're wrong. I agree with that. I agree. I love Lenny. We were it's a masterpiece. I think it could lose 45 minutes. I agree with that. I love Lenny. David and Colin Quinn, I guess, were a little softer on Lenny. But I think Lenny is pretty unimpeachable as a piece of film, even if it is 45 minutes long. It's a gorgeous looking movie. The fact

that the superstructure he decides to do is run the story in chronological order. Except for the flash forward at the beginning to the murder. This is the thing. So it's like,

you have her interviews with the press, you have her story running in real time, but you pretty much fucking open the movie on the worst of it. Right.

And so it's just looming over fucking everything. It's not even like, you know what you're buying a ticket to. This is the inevitability of the sad place

this movie ends, but you're like, starting off a ticket to. This is the inevitability of the sad place this movie ends. But you're like starting off with like, I'm watching the guy fucking like talking to himself, pacing back and forth after he's done it. Shot pornographically, in my opinion. I think, you know, Pauline Kael said about A Clark Report and she called it prurient. She said it was pornography because it was trying to elicit something very specific out of a viewer. And she also said that the only pain the viewer ever sees is Alex's in A Clockwork Orange. And I think that that's similar with this movie is I think the only sympathy that you see from the filmmaker is with Paul Snyder. And I think that those opening scenes, like, why did he have to cut his push-ups and sit-ups on the beat like he was dancing?

Right. It's gross. It's the Fosse thing. It's the Fosse thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's not Paul Snyder doing his thing on Broadway playing, is it? No, no, no. There's even the, I mean, the whole Fosse isolation of the body parts thing, right?

And his choreography. Whose body parts are they? Well, sure. I mean, this is the thing right but like his that whole technique of his she then translates the film with the insert shots and the editing onto the specific parts and whatever he's like reapplying it in this where like the scene where they go to the playboy mansion and he does it every time a guy runs his hand up a woman's back and it's the same kind of thing of what you're talking imagine that like you know dylan klebold and eric what's his name from columbine you know cocking

their guns in rhythm to you know a jazzy number and showing it in close-up how dare you how dare you artify this as though it is art this is the question about any of these movies right like even about a movie like Schindler's List or whatever, it's like, can we point a camera at this? Can you make this something that's also entertaining? You can certainly point a camera at it, but giving it a music video feel.

That's what you're talking about. Kale calls it his bag of tricks. The stylism. That he's making it all jazzy. But you wouldn't call it that if he were making cabaret or even, you know, he had turned his attention to great artists. Yes. You know, he had sort of canonized Lenny Bruce and himself, which, you know, obviously is what it is. And, you know, Liza Minnelli.

And now he is, you know, really interested in this like disgusting low IQ murderer yeah yeah well I mean this is my problem with the movie is like I I don't I like Paul Snyder to me just seems like a problem like I can't get into his headspace at all because there's no beginning with him like from the moment you went he enters you're just like well this is she should get as far away and everyone immediately clocks it right thing that everyone says when they meet him other than her and even if the movie isn't opening with her murder and isn't about the you know murder you're just sort of like well i mean it's it's get out doesn't even have the unpredictability of a you know of a driller killer Or a You know

Or a joker Where you're like It does feel like An exploitation movie It is an exploitation movie Right You know like And so that's how you then

Have to start engaging with it But then When did she die In 1980 Stratton Yeah Yeah And like

This happened The movie is very 1980 This movie is only Three years later Like I can only imagine How unsettling That must have felt

In 1983 Which is to me This is you know A story like i don't i was not alive when this happened there was a jamie lee curtis tv there is no there had already been a tv movie which i imagine is less you know garish simply because it was a television movie we can't see your tits it's it's and it's probably just a lot yes and i and i think it's a little bit more of sort of just like the Dorothy Stratton life story. Right. And the killing of a playmate is sort of... Death of a playmate.

The Peter Varganovitch story. It's Death of a playmate, killing of a unicorn, right? I keep on getting the two titles confused. The original article is so much about the differing viewpoints of the thing right i think it is an investigation into this uh i don't even like to say the word toxic because it sounds so trendy but no there's violent relationship yes yes but also and also just the weird culture of playboy and the mansion and all that certainly yes all of that there were these three different unhealthy relationships in her life

that took different forms. And let's add Fosse as the fourth. Well, Fosse then, right, when he acquires the article, becomes the fourth. Yes, absolutely. That even in her death,

there was this weird obsession with her fucking tits, which I saw more in this movie than anything in her head. There's also, well, yes, there's also the thing of just like all these people go like,

you don't understand. She had this, she was going to be Judy Holiday. She was going to be Cheryl Lombard, right? Okay. And it is this thing where I'm just like, well, first off, look, we never got a chance to find out, right? She was someone with no acting background who got put in three movies and then was murdered senselessly. So like there's, there's not really. And she seemed like she was someone with no acting background who got put in three movies and then was murdered senselessly so like there's there's not really and she seemed like she was a kind person she

seemed like she was a kind person but whenever anyone talked about her it just felt like god you were projecting so much onto a child you know it's the thing i find so sort of uh upsetting about this entire story is that she was just this figure that everyone looked at and they were just like, have you seen anything like this before? And part of it even, I think what this movie does get at well is that so much of what people are reacting to

and going like, holy shit, this girl's a star, is her naivete, her sort of like, oh, geez, sorry. The thing she doesn't know. The child. She's a child. The mind of a child in the body of a beautiful young woman. Right. And people are like, this of like, oh, geez, sorry. Like, the thing she doesn't know. The child. She's a child. The mind of a child in the body of a beautiful young woman. Right, right. And people are like, this is unbelievable.

How is this possible? You will never reconcile these two realities. Right. When I tell you, your mind is going to explode. You won't believe this fucking person. Yeah, it's called a 19-year-old. Right, and that's the thing. When I, like, watch real interviews with her or watch her in these movies,

I'm like, that's a 19-year-old who maybe would have gone on to become an interesting performer sure it's like sharon tate as well i mean sharon tate hadn't been in more movies but there's also people get obsessed with the sort of like oh but what if like oh it was just beginning for her and there's a whole career that didn't happen those guys weren't saying what if they were like it was there sure yeah i mean yeah the thing was there you know beauty is very beguiling. Beauty and dying in insane circumstances. Like, you know, you're just like, well, no. Here's the thing, I keep going back to, these are not insane circumstances,

this happens to women every day. It's very complicated. They're murdered by men who feel rejected and cannot handle that. The circumstances are not insane. The Manson murders were kind of insane. Those were insane. The circumstances are death are insane

But the media circus around it Is although We can talk about White women syndrome White victim The thing that obviously the media loves to glom onto That kind of a story I remember when I worked at People Magazine

A zillion years ago When I was a baby, and I would, like, comb through European news looking for stories to suggest to People Magazine. Like, you could just tell them salivating whenever it was some kind of, like, young woman murdered, like, in weird circumstances in Europe. You know, and people would just immediately just be like,

oh, well, we know what that is. Well, we're also, we're at, like, like once again culturally at an all-time high of being obsessed with these stories and endlessly adapting these stories like all these stories are not only being adapted again but they're being adapted as like fucking 10-hour podcasts and tv shows like drawn out stretched out with what what i think often feels like a very performative empathy. Yeah, I don't listen to those things, but I know they're all out there, right? But it's a conversation I feel like we keep on having of sort of just like, is this whole thing fucked up?

Do we keep on turning this into entertainment to tell ourselves, God, I'm so invested in the tragedy of this person and these people. I think about the people who actually had to live through this, continue to live through this. The way that the narrative is being rewritten by people with other interests, you know? It's a complicated, complicated fucking thing. I think

the reason I find this film powerful, and I'm choosing that word specifically because it's like the movie undeniably has this power to it whether it's a really ugly harmful evil power or or or not is you know a debate but like I feel like this is one of the only sort of true crime movies if I can call it that that feels somewhat cognizant of how ugly and fucked up the entire cycle of the thing is.

Now, it's the Fosse thing, where it's like, this guy fucking hates himself. He knows he's a piece of shit, right? All these movies are about how he feels, unlovable. It's about him. Disgusting. It's about him.

He's pouring at least some part of himself into these stories, yes. Right, and I think the thing that always has made Fosse interesting to me as a filmmaker is unlike a lot of other people who do this where at the end they want you to find them a little bit cute or forgive them or let themselves off the hook right fossy wants to kill himself by the end of the movie like he really is just like and now i've i've explained all my sins to you please let me die please please let me die i want no forgiveness right i think this is a movie that is somewhat,

even if not consciously, and I agree with everything you're saying of what is deeply fucked up about the existence of this movie, about the way he chooses to depict the story, you know, the methods through which he went to adapting this story, all of that. I think this movie is somewhat,

even unconsciously, in conversation with the fact that the very act of trying to do this is fucked up. And that everything surrounding this entire... Of making this. Yeah, like, the whole thing is evil from the get-go. That every person's reaction to this girl

is evil, you know? That everything is wrong. And as she rises in Hollywood, there's no escape from the evil. It's just new layers of whatever. Like, the industry is, you know, going to crush her or manipulate her or destroy her in some way or another way. And you have this final line in the interview where it's like, what's it like? And she's like, you go to the airport and people come up to you.

And it's like, sweet, but it's so depressing because you're like, she didn't really ever care about any of this. But it's so depressing because you're like, she didn't really ever care about any of this. At the end of the day, it was his pursuit of, don't you understand fame's important, money's important, all this sort of shit, right? The final scene where she tries to like end the marriage, she's like, I'll give you $7,000, half of what I have. And you're like, she has $14,000 for how much they've been putting her through the fucking ringer? Which may or may not be historically accurate, but in the story, yes. Right, there's a sort of paper to that. She said, let's go back home.

Yeah. But we all know people like this, where it's like, you're in showbiz, you're working constantly, and you're like, they actually haven't gotten paid. They're just being put on the fucking factory line for like five years, and they're living out of a suitcase,

and they're being pushed from one thing to the other. Yeah, like the Backstreet Boys getting $10 a day for their lunches or whatever. Right. Like playing to me. Although she was living with Bogdanovich at the time. By the end. Yes.

Like by the end of her life. Yes. Her short life. Bob Fosse wants Melanie Griffith. That's his first choice. Okay. He saw Body Double. He was jealous as hell, I bet.

I mean, Body Double is right around. I'm trying to think. No, Body Double is the year later. So what is Melanie Griffith? Uh, hopping for him at night moves. She is. She is in night moves.

And that's like the mid seventies, obviously roar. Yeah. I don't know. Body double was after, huh? Yeah. Body double is right after.

And that of course is her kind of comeback. God, he must've been so jealous of that. Yeah. Cause that's right. That's the sort of like Hollywood Purian. This is a horrible place, but it's also like a fun watch. There's a point to that movie with a point of that. Yeah, because that's right. That's the sort of like Hollywood purient, this is a horrible place, but it's also like a fun, watchable

crazy movie with a point of view. Sure, yes, okay. But like, I mean, Fosse, for better or worse, I don't think could view things as pulp. He was just like, this is miserable and we have to sit in this misery. Molly Griffith, not to just invoke more darkness, but also

like when Molly Griffith is 16 years old, she's married to Don Johnson, he does a Playboy shoot of her as a teenage girl, a child. Yeah, she's a teenager. The parallels there are a little bit uncomfortable. Obviously, Don John is not, Don John, Don Johnston, Johnson,

is not Paul Snyder, but there are weird parallels Don John is also not Paul Snyder for the record Don John just likes his body right Don John he likes his what does he like his girls his gym

his whatever Mariel Hemingway as everyone knows like I feel like that's the most famous thing about this movie right she like campaigned for the role she was like I had to you know it's got to be me she eventually gets herself in front of fossy fossy's like you're not a voluptuous person she famously got a boob job yeah she's always said like oh it wasn't for the movie or anything like that you know whatever do with that what you will that's their own her bare breasts are on screen more than her point of view. She is nude in the film quite often. Bob Fosse tries to sleep with her the entire time he's making the movie,

which seems to be the Bob Fosse experience, basically. Don't do it. Although they did not get together at all. She rebuffed him. But she says that he was essentially constantly an emotional pest. Yes, Ben's like, why are we doing this? We're all just collapsing here. He's like directing her in a scene where a director is manipulating her into having sex with him.

Right, and did Hugh Hefner rape her in the jacuzzi is the question. Yeah. Right, that's part of it. Right. Which they don't get to in this way because they're afraid of Hefner like you know suing them as well I think Hefner is really minimized in this story I think because of how litigated yes yeah it's true he is basically

just like a talking head god man who comes in yeah it's weird to see him not shriveled up that's how I've always known him as like a weird little old raisin yeah yeah just desiccated by the time I was a kid. Oh, yeah. And you were just like,

it's just like this creepy old man who's there. Even on Playboy After Dark, he was a troll. Like, just put pants on, guy. The studio wants Richard Gere. And this is after American Gigolo, I think, right? You know, Richard Gere is like a major heartthrob at this point. Yeah, yeah. Fosse wants Robert De Niro.

You mentioned Pupkin. Yep, he would have been better. Probably understands, like, this guy can do, can go places, right? And King of Comedy has happened at this point, right? Yeah, because King of Comedy is 80, right? 81? 82, sorry.

82, okay. So not yet. No, it has happened, because this movie's 80, but maybe not, maybe it hasn't come out yet. This is all very close, because this movie comes out in 83. Pumpkin, the better choice for him if you're going to do

one of these lonely mustachioed but it's compensating for the lack of the writing ultimately you're asking an actor to do the job you didn't on the page

I think yeah he asks Hemingway to try and like seduce Robert De Niro to like convince him of the role Hemingway's like

no thank you and Hemingway beyond that says just like she perceived that like De Niro rebuffing him of the role Hemingway's like no thank you and Hemingway beyond that says just like she perceived that like De Niro rebuffing Fosse Fosse just took so hard like this guy you know this great actor doesn't think I'm anybody Dorothy Stratton story

when will they ever get maybe they will recover one day and then they get Roberts into whatever he convinces Eric Roberts to do it but like you said Julie, he has to convince him. I mean, like, you know, I don't. Eric Roberts wasn't that stupid. He knew that taking this role was a bad idea.

He certainly was resistant and suspicious. I mean, obviously, it is a meaty role. But I certainly would be like, no, there's no way anyone will be able to look at me after i like do a movie like this do a pass on the script man don't like don't dirk diglify me unless there's anything likable about me it's bob fossey he's made four movies three of them have been nominated for best picture like you know it is script needs work patty was wrong there are notes well patty you know patty said no notes have you seen the hospital patty was also probably saying let me die yeah please get on my corned beef sandwich yeah bossy's like start talking like him start dressing like him you know get into this guy's head and i don't know it seems

creepy sam shepherd was the first choice for to play hugh hefner which would be great he makes a lot of sense like as as a hefner yeah and that doesn't happen fossy wants harry dean stanton hugh hefner was like if you cast harry dean stanton as me i will not let you like use the playboy like archives or the mansions or anything like that so cliff robertson is the compromise i mean the problem and stanton too weird looking is my assumption. In Hugh Hefner's eyes. The problem is that in terms of screen energy, there's just something too fucking grandfatherly about Cliff Robertson.

Well, yeah, that's the notion is that he was the patriarch. He was the kind. He's like the Lord Michaels of the boy universe. Right, yes. And they shoot in Vancouver and Los Angeles. It's a horrible shoot. No one has a good time. No one had a good time making this movie?

No. It's a huge bummer. It would be bad if they did. That's true. You know what? At least they saw it. Right. It was a pleasant time.

We were all eating croissants all day. No. In the middle of the shoot, Fosse calls Anne Ranking and says, I'm living in a world where no one wants to live. I living in this world now we got to get to this spot we got to get to the murder and i really don't want these people i really like these people i don't want to see them die sounds like bob bussy was kind of going insane making this movie yeah and at one point cliff robertson says he turned to cliff robertson he said he's gonna kill her and i don't know how to stop him. We have to do something. So that's the vibes.

It's really, really nasty. You read that and it's confounding that he then chose to, I don't know what the fucking shooting order was, right? They shot it in sequence, basically. But would they have shot the murder stuff since that's wraparound?

I think they shot. I think they shot that last. I think they were. They had to break into that house. Well, yes. But hearing that, I'm like, I'm surprised he didn't change his plans ago. You know what? Maybe we don't want to show this on screen in any way, even sort of fractured.

Yeah. You don't want to show the like BDSM bench he made to rape her anally after he'd already murdered her. Right. I don't want to show that right before the credits come up and dedicate it to Patty Chayefsky. Right. Why would party goers laugh at something like that? That doesn't seem like a chill or fun. Like I would be concerned.

I would be worried. Yeah. This is, it's, it's, I suppose it's sort of the nervous, like, Oh, laughter. Right. I also think this is a, the whole world is bad movie. Right. Yeah. Everyone's bad.

Yes, evil world. Okay. No one liked Derek Roberts' vibes on the set. Oh, wow. People complained about him constantly. And it's one of those things where it's like, oh, is he too in the character? Or is he just Derek Roberts and he's a pain in the ass? Mariel Hemingway said, like, he was a totally nice guy until they started shooting.

And then he was, like, bad vibes. Everything about this, as our researcher said worst Vibes like research ever everything Is bad robert says the whole thing Made me sad i was pathetically unhappy the entire Time and spend nyquist Is shoots it like so It's fossey working with a great cinematographer

But not someone he knows Not his usual guy Sure sure so he's bringing in this kind of European master. Right. And as Julie pointed out, like, they have this whole idea of, like, this sort of, like, rhythmic staccato musical, like, sort of presentation of things.

Worst soundtrack ever. Yes. This is Burns who... Big Shot, two Billy Joel songs. One, which is a cover from like a prom singer i believe right the other is big shot right right they do don't go changing the try please what's it just the way you are dancing to and right they do that at the prom and then they yeah and then there's the what is that one is it sing sing sing when he's like

roller skating. That song, whatever that song is. We all know that music. But the list is insane. What's his name? Ralph Burns? He did the score for this and had won the Oscar for the last two fall scene movies. And essentially creates two stings.

Well, then there's the creeping dread score. That truly makes my skin crawl whenever that plays. like dread you know whenever that that truly makes my skin crawl whenever that plays well you know what it's leading to you saw it

before the credits yeah well yes but also I do think musically it is upsetting even if you isolate that

if you played this in this room right now I'd start like scratching myself I think this story doesn't deserve this

bag of tricks up on Cripple Creek I'm just looking at the other weird things. Sookie Sookie by Steppenwolf, Let the Good Times Roll. Do you think I'm sexy? Do you think I'm sexy by Rod Stewart?

YMCA. The worst. Just the way you are. Yeah. Blush it down the toilet. Yeah. Almost Jock Jams adjacent. Yeah.

They start screening this movie and the test screenings go very poorly. Really? People walk out Bob Fosse refuses to make any changes Thinking he has made his best film Alan Ladd sees the film and is like This one's not going to be a hit

And it comes out It's positioned for awards, right? It comes out in limited release in November And it gets mixed to bad reviews Although there are some like roger ebert who liked it like you know there were some people who connected with it you have never thought it was disgusting the way it linked sex to violence uh he didn't like the intercutting of the photo sessions with the murder scene things like that peter bradanovic obviously just like writes a

whole poison pill book yeah about how much he hated it and uh the movie comes out and it's a huge flop and is despised and bobby fossey doesn't make another movie and then he dies and it feels like this thing of like like lynn was on our all that jazz episode and he was so excited and he was like you know god bless you on star 80 though i don't know how that's gonna go like it's just that he hadn. Like, it's such a bum note to end. He's never seen it. It is fascinating to me that you're talking about Bob Fosse being undersung as a director. Right.

Absolutely. And we announced that we were doing this miniseries. And I saw a lot of our fans and a lot of, let's say, the more sometimes the fans of ours who run more snobbish or film snobbish, right? Or film bros. Sure. Who think of him as... Well, no, this is what was interesting.

A lot of them were saying, this is so exciting. What a cool pick. Finally. Cool of them to pick someone off the beaten path. I've never seen any of these movies. What a good excuse to finally see them. Right. And that's what I was sort of surprised by was how many of these people were sort of

saying, like, I know that's a blind spot. I appreciate that I'm now gonna have an impetus to watch all these movies, right? But the people who had seen Fosse movies, even, most of them were like, obviously the one I haven't seen is Star 80 because I can't put myself through that. And then the smaller section of people who were Fosse

fans had seen Star 80 were like, good luck, no idea how you fucking do an episode on that one. It does just feel like a movie that is still radioactive radioactive haunted yeah i don't know right i mean there's the whole obviously like there's i i don't even know how to touch this but the the meryl hemingway element of it as well when you have like this and manhattan on of each other, right? And they're two movies that are essentially about the same basic phenomenon,

but in very, very different ways. One that is very much romanticized and fictionalized and, you know, is still kind of like, is using the tricks of filmmaking to make people buy into something. Yeah, Manhattan, he is like selling you on like, no, this is what I should be doing. I should be dating a teenager. I'm giving you fucking Gershwin. I'm giving you beautiful. Yeah, right, right. like selling you on like, no, this is what I should be doing. I should be dating a teenager.

I'm giving you fucking Gershwin. I'm giving you beautiful. Yeah, right, right. You're supposed to be swooning at the end of this. She actually decided at one point to go somewhere and do something in that movie. Right. And then the end of the movie is like, thank God she's not going to do that. She's going to hang out with Woody Allen.

Like, it's great. But it is fascinating to me that like that movie's existence is sort of about the same thing this movie is about. Thankfully minus the murder, you know? Old guys being disgusting towards young beautiful women. Right, just seeing a child and going like, I need to explain to everyone why you're the most important thing in the

world. And I feel like after this movie her career just kind of goes nowhere. She doesn't make a movie for another couple years and the movie she does make is called creator right you know then the mean season is that the is that the peter atul movie creator is the peter right yeah does she do a run on ellen doesn't she do like a 90s sitcom run rosanne she did a couple episodes rosanne yes i mean it's not like she disappeared from anything. From, like, but... And she was in that TV show, Civil Wars, that was kind of a hit.

Like, I think she got maybe, like, a Golden Globe nomination for it or something. You know, like, in the early 90s. She is... But that's back when, if you're a movie actor going to TV, it's sort of like, oh, it's a step down. It's a concession. Right.

She's made a couple documentaries now, right? I know she did a documentary About sort of the history Of depression In her family Her family And sort of trying to fight Against suicide

A lot of suicide Yeah Which I heard is very good It's called My Suicide I mean I'm not sure But she's also done Movies about yoga and stuff

Right She's like very into all That world Yeah And so that's what she does She's like very into all that world. And so that's what she does. She's a survivor. Running from crazy. Running from crazy. That's the documentary about her.

She is. And by the way, when she does interviews today, she speaks about all of this work and this period of her life with a, thankfully, you know, like, thank God,

a really kind of sound perspective. Feels like she has really processed a lot of it in the healthiest way possible. But it is one of those things to just be like, Jesus fucking Christ, for like six years, all this shit was thrown on me. It was all okay. Yeah. And she's in that movie Personal Best

in between Manhattan and Starry Day. It's sort of like a landmark movie. That's kind of the one time she got to make like a real Mariel Hemingway movie where she is the protagonist. It's not of like a landmark movie. That's kind of the one time she got to make a real Mariel Hemingway movie. Yeah. Where she is the protagonist. It's not a perfect movie, but it's one of the first Hollywood movies to have a lesbian relationship in it. Is that Robert Towne?

Yeah. And it made her a sort of LGBT icon. Yes. And she played gay characters in various things. It's on Roseanne, I think. Isn't that the thing that her character was kind of the first major recurring lesbian character on primetime television, I think, on Roseanne.

And she said, like, I'm not gay, but I liked that I became this kind of figure of, you know, whatever. But look, also, I mean, kind of makes sense that she not to project, pivots in her career and is like, I no longer want my characters to be defined by how much men are obsessed with them.

You know? That she's like, I will become an ally to the lesbian community. It can't be worse. Yeah. I like Mariel Hemingway in everything I've ever seen her in, pretty much. I just haven't seen her in a lot of stuff. I've seen her in this and Manhattan and

probably saw those Roseanne episodes back in the day. But like, you know. And Personal Best is good. Yeah. Personal Best is good. I have seen Personal Best. Apparently she did some Becker. Becker's a good show.

Julie? What? I've never seen it. Becker! Sorry. He's a mean doctor. Star 80. Lynn hasn't seen Star 80.

I haven't seen Becker. You haven't seen Becker. You'll have to make sense of it. It's the only jewel in the dancing crown. You haven't. I do feel like Becker. You haven't seen Becker. You'll have to make sense of it. It's the only jewel in the dancing crown. You haven't. I do feel like Becker is one of those shows where if there was a streaming deal

tomorrow and all of Becker went up on Amazon Freeview or some shit. The world would be healed. The world would be healed and we would just get all these vulture think pieces of like rediscovering Becker, the greatest. I'm ready. Is Becker the high point of American television? I just feel like, I'm not saying this from experience from experience wow becker is truly hard to stream this is what i'm saying yeah

there's a couple seasons on pluto tv that's it but in my mind's eye when i think back to the handful of becker episodes i've seen when i replay them in my head i'm like if i watch that today i would maybe argue to give that a peep on yeah becker rules yeah wait i'm sorry i watched becker it was congratulations i'm pro becker i'm not being ironic here i'm not either he was a bronx doctor he was grumpy right he would go to a diner that was the show yeah that was it that was the whole show shawnee smith who's that she was on becker oh shawnee smith yeah i said johnny smith no shawnee smith Right. Alex Farrell from, Terry Farrell from Star Trek.

Yeah. Alex Dessert. Yes. From Swingers. Yes. Becker. Becker. Anyway, back to story. Wow, there's no energy for Becker in this room.

I'm sorry. I'm keeping you in. I think you have a lot of energy. I want to re-watch Becker. Well, you can't. You'd have to buy the DVDs, I think. You'd have to buy the box sets. Has it even been released on DVD? I think it has. I don't know what it has. I think you can get some'd have to buy the DVDs Has it even been released on DVD?

I don't know what it has I think you can get some Becker DVDs Is there a Shout Factory complete Becker? Yes, $37 We can't talk about Becker anymore She's stopping it Five seasons I'm shutting it down

Place an order Well okay so back to Star 80 Ben what do you think of star yeah ben stinks hated it bum me out watched it this morning it's the worst day to start your day not a great way to start your day yeah yeah julie had okay wait i do have one major thought though okay sorry stabbing someone in the butt as revenge. With? A little ass knife. Nope. At the prom? The filing end of a nail clipper.

Oh, that's what it was? It's an incredibly bizarre moment. Yeah, it's so weird and specific. Yeah. That was fun. Okay. That's a standout moment. This is when he takes her to prom,

and she had mentioned that a football player was lousy to her. Right. Said she was bad as hell. Yeah, and he does that and you're like, get away from this person. That's just what I'm thinking the entire time. Yeah, no, Julie, how many times have you seen Star?

This was only my second time. How often are you going to revisit this movie? Did you see it the first time when it was at the Quad? Yes, yes, absolutely, yeah. I did, and it was just heartbreaking to see one of your favorite painters decide to, you know, spend their last years working on this, you know, beautiful portrait of like John Wayne Gacy. Well, it's also like...

Right, he really got his eyes right. Really got that blue. I mean... I pretty much agree with all of your criticisms on this movie. And as far as it being powerful, I would just add so is pornography. And so is the Zapruder footage. No, very, very, very true. But is it a great film?

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I am I constantly wrestle with the first time I watch it. I was just so fucking affected by it. And there is the sort of just the Fosse construction I am so in love with. Like, I do like the way he thought about film, you know, was a I think that the issue is what you're saying used to what ends. Right. And like, I think when you think about the written and direct, I think that so much of what is horrible about this is in the writing, because we know he could

make a I mean, and then you think about, you know, Mr. Arthur contributing in all that jazz and having another and him respecting writers, but not necessarily being the one to have that auteur credit when he, I don't think he was capable of, you know, I, I agree with that.

I, I, I think this one was much more directed than it is written. And it's the only movie he has the writer-director credit. You know, like, he wrote all that jazz, like you said, you know, he co-wrote. But yeah, this is the only written and directed by Bob Fosse movie. Just not to be pat about it, this movie probably shouldn't have been written by a man. Like, it's what you're saying, but just there's no sort of glimpse into her point of view, her interiority, any of that.

It's just a thing. American Psycho, two female voices behind it and is therefore such an insightful and even funny critique of like, I mean, it's it's almost like the, you know, reductress version of body double in a way. That's the perfect example. But it's it but it's a similar thing where for so long people were like, you can't fucking make the American Psycho movie. That's irresponsible. Unfilmable. How can you put that on screen? If you drag Brett Easton Ellis across

the coals, it's actually really fun. It's actually a lot of... We got the rights to his story and we made him look like an asshole. That's a win win. Right. But you think about how close we came to getting like Oliver Stone, DiCaprio, American Psycho and what a fucking nightmare that would have been. And I think it would have been somewhat similar. Yeah. Yeah. And frankly, at least, you know, at least Patrick Bateman was on the movie poster.

We have, you know, the victim, and I don't even want the victim. We get to still jerk off to her gauzy beauty. Right, the poster is essentially just a pinup. It's her biting a flower. Absolutely. We don't, even though it's about, it's not about her, but we still get to use her.

You're selling the sex of it. I mean. I know what you're saying, yeah. I i remember i think it was the onion last week when roe v wade was overturned saying that women are classified as service animals now by the supreme court and i i do think that they i mean it's funny because they're called playmates in the playboy world they're called pets in pen house right i think that that is absolutely you know they are a source of decorative pleasure you know you you see the other women in hugh hefner's world playing pinball at like two in the afternoon you know having like a catered lunch there's joking about their diets

it is like it's like pets It's people who have like show dogs There's the moment where she You know Puts the check down wrong or whatever And then she's like Oh I'm not supposed to do it that way And then she does the bunny dip Yes right

Yeah And he is You know Hugh Hefner is benevolent In offering her an apartment And a job at one of the clubs And we see people act towards her the way that Paul Snyder had acted towards his, you know, car show models. And I don't believe Fosse is so insincere at wanting

to expose sexism because he makes it so sexy. Sure. That I get I'm just i'm sick to my stomach not uh mentally but just physically and it's sort of this is an appalling what a bummer of a movie and i think it is reacting to the fact that like your sympathy with her is like gosh isn't it awful someone really killed this bijan frise i i think there's this thing of i I mean, the whole thing of. Did you hear the story? They killed this B. Jean Frise. Really? Who? What was he like? Well, sure. Sure. I think there's this whole thing that's interesting about Fosse making this film essentially when he feels like he's on borrowed time. Right. And a lot of people who have sort of an extra chapter to their life that they did not think they were going to have talk about it with a certain sense of enlightenment.

Reflecting on his own life, you mean? I'm not talking about with fallacy, right? Oh, I see. I mean, I'm going to go on a quick side tangent here, but I just have no better way to say this because I'm done with the one thing I'm going to say. Okay? What is it? George Lucas talk show. Pandemic. I'm done with the one thing I'm going to say. Okay. What is it? George Lucas talk show.

Pandemic. We got hyper fixated on our lists and then started this thing where every week we'd watch an entire season of our list and we'd get people from our list and Robert Wool would come on the stream with us and stay on for like two hours. And I've, I spent more time talking to Robert Wool during the first year of the pandemic than my parents probably. Right. Only ever as Watto. It was a very, very bizarre relationship

where I felt like, you know, some weird attachment without ever having a conversation with them as myself. And then last year, I had my fucking health problems and I needed my gallbladder taken out and then there were problems with my liver

and the surgery was delayed and I was fucking suffering. And my friends, when i finally got my surgery as a as a joke as a present but a kind of a bit they paid to get a cameo from robert wool and i was like this is the last thing i need right now i've gotten the full robert will experience the only thing i've had an abundance of in the last 18 months of my life is conversations with Robert Wool over a screen. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Right.

But Robert Wool leaves this video for me, and not that he should, but I realized the second I started watching it, oh, he doesn't know who I am. I've never spoken to him outside of the fucking room. Right. He gets a cameo request for Griffin Newman. He does. It's nothing to him. Right? Yeah. And he goes, your friends, you know, they said you have minor surgery. Isn't it funny?

They always, if it's you, they say it's minor surgery. If they have surgery, it's major surgery. He's making his jokes, whatever, right? Sure. I'm like, this is sweet. Why the fuck did you pay for this, Robert? Yeah, give it to charity. Right, exactly.

And then he said this thing that really stuck with me, right? Okay. He's like, you know, I was friends with Glenn Frey of the eagles it was really good friends with me he had a really really bad heart attack famously chill guy almost died right right and he comes back and i said how do you feel now glenn you got you got this extra time and he said bobby i'm gonna live so well okay i'm gonna live so i thought i was enjoying life now but i realized how close I came to losing it, and I'm just gonna live so well, man. I'm just gonna really, really enjoy my life. And Bob Fosse seems

to have done the exact opposite thing after a near-death experience where he's like, what the fuck am I still doing here? He totally soured. Sure. And, like, shriveled. And this movie, like, is made in hell. Yes. Right? Like, it's like he's already dead. Right.

And there was, you saying what a shame for him to take this poison pill and end his career on this horrible note. And it's almost like he didn't know anything other than to just wallow in. Not just...

It doesn't change who you are. If you're having a death scare, it's not going to change your personality. No, no, no. Absolutely not. But it was almost like he resented that he was still alive.

It wasn't like he gained any sense of appreciation. It comes up with Fosse over and over again. Where it's like he has this right near-death experience. And he maybe for a month is like, well, I'm going to try and live healthier. And I'm going to try and not behave the way I behave. And then like a month later, he's like smoking cigarettes until they're burning in his mouth. And squeezing every nurse's ass. And like, you know, he's like, I cannot escape myself.

Whether or not that is like, he could have escaped himself, I have no idea. But certainly that is his opinion of himself. He's like, I am stuck in a bubble pussy forever. But is that his ticket to just... I'm not saying any of this is a defense. I'm just trying to interrogate how it ends up here.

Him writing his own story is saying, well, i had this you know extra life that was granted to me it's just always all about him yes just oh and and and maybe use this opportunity to like get to know like half of the population as human beings instead of you know oh here we go more grab ass it's like maybe talk to i don't know it the lack of sympathy for any female character in this is is just really really shocking it's like you say he has sympathy for her but as this object that's like cursed possession you know sociopaths like they're um like like trump with his daughter 100 or like it's like they're his um assets

belongings possessions you know status symbols and then the thing i said about like him turning to cliff robertson and being like somebody do something where it's like why are you recreating this like inevitable like horrible thing in front of your eyes and then being horrified by it again like and look there's something about this that recurs in culture forever we like you said about true crime pockets but like right just we we are certainly or a slice of us are certainly completely transfixed by victims yeah and like you know we we do deify them into these like so creepy ways right robert green's uh great movie kate plays christine yeah is like a really fascinating sort of meta watching that one not the car one not the car one correct right no like a very

difficult watch but it is a movie about an actor trying to play a tragic you know a person who killed herself right right and you do sort of get into this whole thing of like why are we compelled to these stories why do people feel like telling these stories is the ultimate height of like artistic achievement? If you can reclaim these profound tragedies, you're an actor and you get to play the role of the victim or the culprit or whatever the fuck it is. Why are we so obsessed with these? And the whole added thing that comes up with like now, I think in particular with the True Crime podcast, where people want to, like, solve them. You know, where it becomes an activity for listening. Or finding meaning and applying storytelling tropes to things that are chaos.

Right. Well, this happened because, you know, Sharon Tate was murdered because it was the end of the 60s. Like, well, okay, yeah, we could say that could say that sure sure it becomes part of a legendarium rather than yeah being this weird like she was a human being and her preference would have been to stay alive right she did not want to be a symbol an interesting like fucking chapter right you can make sense of it culturally and that's our you know that that is our how our brains work is to try to make sense of things into these narratives chaos um but i ultimately think it comes down to like it got my dick hard and um

my brain is firing in a really interesting way because as a narcissist i see myself in these men and some of them are successful and some aren't and they uh are it isn't that interesting and that ultimately is what so negatively of himself or whatever he sees this man he's like well this is could this be me if i don't get a big break am i this guy like and he finds that an interesting that's really interesting to him the other problem for me is that, they have to sand off Hefner and Bogdanovich so much, right? Hefner for fear of legal reasons and Bogdanovich into a character that basically doesn't resemble. The bro code. Yes.

Right. Right. That you're really just hyper fixating on this one toxic relationship she had in a way that like the killing of a playmate has like it's at least looking at the ecosystem the various people who controlled her in various ways right and that Playboy was

sort of an acceptable what would you call that in today's sort of content generating hub right that like Playboy was sort of it generating hub, right? That like Playboy was sort of its own studio. It was. And it also was like one of those systems,

like I had that joke about the Backstreet Boys. That is a real fact. They got 10 bucks a day. Right, right. You know, like where it's sort of like, well, you're a Playboy bunny. So enjoy that. You don't really have any freedom.

You're not really going to make money, but you're safe here. Like, right? You know, and it's sort of like you're in our system. What is different between what Hefner was offering her and what Paul Snyder was offering her in his services as quote unquote, a manager, right? Right.

Not murdering her. Well, yes, but I'm talking only before we get to that. A better deal. A better deal. Thank you. That's the thing. It's like there's a veneer of respectability this is a system and a pipeline that at this point there's like 20 years and we have accepted a better manager right yeah and partially because of his fucking playboy after

dark shit and whatever it's like but you're right because he has a reputation he's like well hugh hefner you know i loosen the cultural norms you to an agent and he will get you on perhaps but it's the same thing it It's a kept woman thing. Right. It's breeding animals as pets that are really beautiful. At no point is anyone ever asking her what she wants to do. Right. Do you ever get a sense of what she enjoys or doesn't?

It is the thing. To go back to what I find so haunting about that final line where her only answer is like, I guess it's nice when people come up to you at the airport. Yeah, it's nice to be loved and it's nice to have attention from people that think you're beautiful and are friendly. Which is the basic thing. Appreciate you, yes.

A 16-year-old girl who had not found any confidence in herself. Yeah, that's something. That's like, let's keep going. Let's brainstorm on Dorothy Stratton's character for a day. Yes, yes, yeah. Let's brainstorm on Dorothy Stratton's character for a day. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Because this is the final Fosse episode.

And in a very different form than our episode on The Ward, which is not as toxic a film. Sure. But it's a bummer on a career. Right. On what? The Ward is John Carpenter's last movie. Oh, I see. Which is kind of a nothing movie that finishes his career with.

Unless he wants to make another movie, obviously. He is still alive, right? Yes, he is still alive. One of the reasons we asked you to come on this A, because I didn't know what your opinions were but I knew you had strong opinions on this movie and opinions on Fosse at large, whatever. But I'm just curious if there's anything else

you want to discuss within the larger Fosse. Oh, so much. I wouldn't even know where to begin. I just I'm so heartbroken that that, you know, the way it looks in retrospect, that all that jazz

was sort of like who he wanted to be and maybe Star 80 was saying, well, this is who I really am. Maybe, you know, perhaps we can see that as like the penultimate and the ultimate.

I don't think it's that simple. I also think that, you know, he has a track record of like giving women like wonderful things. I mean, I will always talk about one of the last shots in Cabaret when Sally Bowles, it decides to, she doesn't even decide to,

it's just her job. She shows up for her job. She thinks about her abortion for a minute. She thinks about her lover going on a train and that being the last she'll ever see of him and that she has to show up to work because that's what she does. And that is what she chose. And before she goes on stage, she goes from thinking about it to not thinking about it. And you see her go into a smile and then the curtain opens and she walks onto stage and Fosse shot that in a medium. And I think that is so fucking brilliant. I think that he did not decide to go in close

on Liza's beautiful expressive from the back of a fucking theater face. You could see her backstage at the Kit Kat club, make that decision and then go on stage and do her fucking job. I think the restraint and the confidence in his lead actor is so fortifying. And I don't I do think that his attitude towards women, both personally and creatively, was complicated. If I had just seen this film, I would not think that it does break my heart to leave his legacy with such an ugly relic. It is the thing that's so complicated about him because he obviously had this very unhealthy dynamic with women and relationship to them. And I don't say what I'm about to say to excuse the previous thing. But it also is like he had these meaningful artistic collaborations.

Yes, with women he respected as collaborators, Rankin and Verdon and so many of the dancers he worked with. Right, and Minnelli and all these people. And it's like, these lines were constantly getting crossed with him sexually. But it is that thing of, you're right, if you only watched this movie and read stories about Bob Fosse's personal life, you would come to a very different conclusion about him in totality. And I don't say this to excuse any of his behavior or condemn any of it either, right? He, like a lot of people, incredibly fucking complicated and, you know, good and bad.

But there is, I think, not just in the relationships he had as a collaborator with those people, but there's just like insight into Sally Bowles as a character, Charity as a collaborator with those people. But there's just like insight into Sally Bowles as a character, Charity as a character. I would even argue Honey Bruce. Absolutely. You know, who really is like a co-lead of that movie. And Valerie Prine has given room to give such a fucking incredible performance. It is the thing that is lacking in this movie and is bizarre because

for how much the failings of this film fit into his failings as a human being, they had not been failings of his as a dramatist up until this point. Absolutely. And not just as a dramatist, but as a creative, you know, I hate the word hyphenate, but, you know, this auteur. this auteur. And I do think ultimately, you know, however he conducted himself as a private human is a part of the conversation, certainly. But ultimately, I judge creative men by how they collaborate with like the Nichols and May of it all. And, you know, Monica Johnson writing with Albert Brooks, like I think about that as do you really respect women that you will listen to us, not just as a director, lead actor, but the way he and Gwen Verdon and the reason why it's Fosse Verdon is because he trusted able to let her in and let her speak to the performers and let her help him shape the the thing that he is sort of like that's where his that's you know where his identity really is is um very special and interesting about him yeah we wouldn't be talking about him if he was not like an absolutely compelling fascinating artist like right but the process

letting um yeah you know like hiring tina to be head writer that that to me is very that that's that's unusual and especially in the 70s when you got all the credit david and i were texting about this the other day but the whole sort of cultural phenomenon of certain men who are young geniuses especially in film sure get divorced and 70s film which is you know capital s capital right yeah but like bogdanovich polyplatic key example of this right get divorced and never fucking get back in the groove again ever again and it sort of reveals like oh that person was a collaborator, you know, whether it was Marshall Lucas or Polly Platt. And they actually had that was your marriage designated roles on the film. But in addition, clearly, we're balancing out a lot more than

just that in a Gwen Verdon way. Oh, your credit is this. But really, you're the other part of the brain. But also not to be because i also hate the you know backhanded like well you're the one behind the man no no it's truly like she was next to him and everyone knew it right that's that's the thing it's like a lot of these guys i think feel like well she was like a good whisper in my ear rather than being like we're the coen brothers yoko and john right we're working in. There's a thing that's missing. And whether it was somewhat selfish of him or not, there was something at least perceptive enough in Fosse to when he had fucked up that marriage being like, I can't make movies without her. And this is the movie that she probably has the least involvement.

Well, he knew that he couldn't make theater without her. He couldn't really make anything without her well. But he, I, yeah, the film, Fossean film is a fascinating notion because it's not like theater because he, you know, she was with him that night when he died because she was like basically directing Sweet Charity, you know?

Right. Let me give you a little post-Star 80 Fity. Right. Let me give you a little post-Star 80 Fosse. Please. Michael Jackson asks him to shoot the music video for Thriller, which is crazy.

But obviously, Michael Jackson considers Bob Fosse a colossal. If you see the little prince that makes perfect sense. Third episode in a row we've talked about this. I love that fucking

Yeah, he looks like he's about to drop dead in the desert. Insane. You cannot believe he's actually still alive during this whole thing. No, it's shocking.

Bob Fosse declines because he thinks Michael Jackson is weird. He is very bummed out that Star 80... That's saying a lot. That's saying a lot. Yeah, Bob Fosse's like, no, I don't want to deal with you. Bob Fosse's really bummed out

that Star 80 does horribly. He essentially retreats to the Hamptons where he kind of spends the rest of his life with this new girlfriend, Phoebeoebe younger let's just clarify not only does horribly but the reviews are like what the fuck is wrong with you why would you do this it's it's a little like the peeping tom thing where people are like how dare you yes except peeping tom is like eventually kind of vindicated and this people were like no fuck you yeah go sit absolutely yeah he is just sort of like moves in with Phoebe Unger she said that he would just like

show her movies and like talk about them at certain points she was just casting his Oscar votes for him they're just like sitting there being movie nerds together he eventually comes back to try and save the choreography on how Prince is famous. Broadway bomb grind. Uh, and then he works. It's a musical that, you know, went nowhere.

Uh, but it's a Hal Prince, you know, musical. So it was a big deal. Uh, it's a portrait of an African-American burlesque house in Chicago in the thirties.

I have never heard of this show, but it was, and the other stuff that was going on, but it didn't do well. He works on big deal, which i mentioned before he starts working on the survival of sweet charity with gwen verdon and they're having a great time together as much as gwen verdon's like you know same old bob i mean the thriller of it all is an interesting factoid not not just because of the michael jacks because like he could have gotten fabulous fabulous music videos made if he had cared to.

I imagine he believed that was below him. I'm sure he did, but you're right because it's sort of like, you were only a couple years before those are basically like, you know,

the coolest. It's right around when they are starting to become like art. He should have done music video. Yeah. He should have. I mean, that would have

reinvigorated his career. It would have opened up a new chapter, but it's a chapter I think he probably would not reinvigorated his career. It would have opened up a new chapter. But it's a chapter I think he probably would not have. He was snotty about it. And then he put the worst soundtrack ever together for this. But like, even if he had done the Thriller music video and it had blown up and everyone was like, holy fucking shit. I still think he would have been like, I'm not going to fucking do this again.

Well, yeah, he should have. Yeah. Big deal seems like this sort of all consuming thing that That is sort of the final thing that does him in It's a huge flop Adapting fucking Italian movies into musicals He does win a Tony Well, that's what Sweet Charity was All that jazz is so eight and a half adjacent

And Nine is its own fucking literal musical But he does like it As much as it's not a hit He is satisfied He's working, he's doing what he does And he wins much as it's not a hit. He is like satisfied. He's working. Yeah, he's doing what he does. And he wins a Tony, his final Tony for choreography.

And then he starts working on a Walter Winchell movie that's going to star Robert De Niro, his big white whale at this point, clearly. So about, you know, gossip column, you know, sort of a sweet smell of success kind of thing. Yeah. Right? And then he dies before it starts filming.

In Gwen Verdon's arms, outside the theater, opening night. In the middle of the street. A few other things that are late Fosse projects that are just fascinating to consider. Chicago, like we mentioned. Dreamgirls. The film adaptation of Dreamgirls, which, fascinating to consider.

A Broadway adaptation of Anne Rice's novel The Vampire Less Dead starring David Bowie and Mick Jagger. I mean. Sounds like a good time. Cool. Yeah. And Good Morning Vietnam, which he was very interested in. I saw that recently. I loved it.

It's good. I've never seen it. Yeah. It is very kind and human. It is. It's a very sentimental movie you'd like it gripping it's a it's a it's a good movie it's such a relief when you watch a movie like that that you've somehow missed and you've assumed in your mind like that thing's gonna be a relic of its

time they'll understand some of the values but it's gonna age weirdly or not age poorly but just like and then you watch it you're just like this this thing fucking rules. And also Robin Williams is gone. And so it's one of his, you know, like all heart performances. Brilliant. And Robert Wool. Oh, Bobby's in it? Bobby's in it. Bobby. Yeah, no, he dies, you know, in Gwen's arms at the intersection of Pennsylvania and 14th

in Washington, D.C., where they were working. And that's it. You know? It is quite a way to go. All his friends go out to dinner on his tab which was specified

in his will. Was he unhealthy? What was going on? He smoked like one billion, billion cigarettes a day. He looked horrible. Yeah.

Oh my God. The idea that he got to pick Roy Scheider to play him is like, yes, I'd like Jessica Chastain to play me, please.

And I would like Drew to be really amazing. Scheider to play him. It's like, yes, I'd like Jessica Chastain to play me, please. And I would like Drew to be really amazing. Scheider's also just like in such amazing shape in that movie. Roy Scheider's fabulous in it. That's why it's so unfair to see Eric Roberts get the Roy Scheider treatment in this movie about being an

incel piece of shit. Yes. Yeah. As opposed to, you know, someone who is a complicated person making fabulous art. Yes. And, you know, the final memory here is David Picker, one of his guys, saying when he got home, there was a phone message on his machine from Bobby saying, like, I want to talk to you about the script you just sent me. Like, he's still talking about show business and Bobby is dead. That's what he says in all that jazz. that's all there is yeah um it is a fascinating

career there's no question i would love to see some of i wish he had made like five more movies it's absolutely a shame that he didn't make more how much in this series which i'm very excited to listen to did you or were you able to discuss about theater knowing that theater is not something you can just call up and say oh this is what chicago was yeah we talk a lot on the cabaret episode about the various permutations of that show the movie is so much better than the show i agree maybe people are not on record in the theater world as much as they, you know. Or they're so different, the movie and the show. I think the approach to the movie is brilliant.

Some wonderful performances from the stage. I loved seeing Alan Cumming. And I know that there's a fabulous production in London, apparently. Yeah, Jesse Buckley. Eddie Redmayne is apparently fabulous. Yes. But that film really took it and just exploded it. Our researcher, JJ, is great and has put together what he calls a Fossia, which is a dossier of Fossia-related facts.

We've tried to stay up on sort of the context of the important theater works in between those things and the different productions. And then we had Zegler on the Cabaret episode, who's such a student of the history of musical theater. It's impossible to analyze. I mean, I so often— Trying to catch a cloud or something. Absolutely. And I mean, when I'll like read Wikipedia entries,

and I'm just, I can't sleep at night even prior to this series and go down rabbit holes of like certain actors' careers and it's like, what were the big fucking Broadway shows

that elevated them or these famous, you know, productions of these classic works or whatever. And there is this feeling of like, I just had to take their work for it.

I will say, did you discuss Liza with a Z? We will be discussing that on our Patreon. I will come back to discuss Liza with a Z. I think Liza with a Z is such an incredible example of how you can direct theater for film.

Yeah. And in a way that I can't think of anything else. Because everything else is sort of PBS archive. Make sure that they're in focus. Yeah. And just, you know, people be like, just believe me. I know. I know.

It's like, do you cut it all? Oh, exactly. He shows Gwen Verdon in the audience losing her mind. Liza backstage, all of the edits, he can do exactly the right, like you do the medium shot for the hand flick that he wants. The cutting is just sublime. It is such an incredible, I've never seen a better example of shooting theater.

It's been a little chunk of time since we recorded our Sweet Charity episode, a movie I enjoyed greatly. Great movie. And then since then, I pretty much, maybe in two months, have had, if they could see me now, stuck in my head on a continuous loop. And you've seen Gwen perform it, but it's on variety shows. Well, so this is what I was going to say. So I've like gone down this rabbit hole where I keep on watching any performance of it i can by anyone at a high level right so every different film version of glenn verdon doing it different variety shows doing it at the tonys or career retrospectives there are many different but none of them are a equivalent to that being

properly adapted to film say had she been in the theatrical film or be capturing the feeling of seeing her do it live i watched fucking son foster do it and christian applegate do it and whatever yeah that was bad i went to see uh she's great but yes yeah i would see tony danza a cafe carlisle for your loss i had a ball of a time yeah i was enjoying it 20s and then yeah woody came out with his clarinet he didn't it was justinet he did it was just dancing I know it was just dancing with a little song

yeah alright Woody nowhere just a little it was a $27 martini well this is true of course but then at the end of it

he did fucking if they could see me now and I almost started crying I'm just like I'm so fucking into this song oh really you've seen Kathy Lee Gifford sing it for Carnival Cruise

I've seen I've been like watching every fucking listening to every version of it it's a fun song sy colman is fabulous um have you listened you know city of angels at all i i know what yes wonderful enjoy it enjoy the soundtrack it's a um gelbart wrote the book okay david zippel the um you know the hercules guy it's a it's a wonderful show but sy colman's fabulous wonderful show. Cy Coleman's fabulous. It is that thing that's so fucking frustrating.

And it's why I'm happy Fosse Verdon exists as a series, to, like, sort of textualize her importance. It's imperfect, but there are three episodes that are drop dead. I agree. Pip and Lenny and, I don't remember, maybe the pilot. Yeah. But it is that thing where you're just, just like you have to kind of take people's word to some degree and especially with that one where it's just like well everyone agreed at the time that came out that the thing the flaw of the movie one of the inherent flaws of the movie was try as

she might surely yeah it's just like she's surely never been captured. Shirley's innocent. He was excited about the 60s effect. It's way too long. Way too long. He's doing everything at once. Right. But Big Spender is shot the way the show was meant to. That, to me, is a perfect translation. There's great shit in it.

But, like, yeah, it's just all is like, why couldn't I see Verdon do this? Why does this only exist in my head? Why is this? It just becomes a fucking legend. this why why is this only exists in my head why is this it just becomes a legend which is kind of shocking yes that she but um yeah whatever lola wants that to me was that's my whatever worm ear eye worm yeah um the scene in the locker room i re-watched that again recently as well because of this but but it is that thing. It's tough to talk about someone. She was precision.

She was like, what do they say? Dionysus versus, what is it? Apollonia? Like the line versus, you know, feeling versus brain, basically. Sure, sure. Like Verdon was precision. Yeah. And then ranking was like all sensuality oh all all round and um you know it's not surprising she had arthritis and all those health problems i think she had probably had no joints or any stability and but but i mean

oh my god those those two and i know we're it's not nice to think about women it's like well you got your jackies and your marilyns but like wow those two as muses to him absolute just incredible artists that he was able to use as paintbrushes but also they were you know holding the brush as well so like they're kind of dead center between them almost well lies is a wonderful actress and i think he she was able to um yeah that's a really interesting point where eliza in terms of style and technique yeah yeah she's fabulous singer she acts through her singer and then and then as a dancer she's just this like floppy fun noodle right goofy noodle absolute loopy yeah you, and a beautiful dancer in her own right,

but so personality driven that it is like that's film acting for you. I love Liza. I do too. I can't wait to talk Liza with this game. Yeah,

we're very lucky to have her. Let's do the box office game, Griffin. Okay. And then let's do our Fosse rankings. Okay. I think that's all

we have to do left, right? I think so. Star 80, we're going to talk about the box office of the week this movie came out. Okay. Open and limited release.

It's not in the top five. Okay. This is November 1983. Okay. November 11th. Okay. Remember, remember. Remember, remember.

Number one of the box office is a generational classic. It's not Return of the Jedi. No. No, I mean generational. I really mean it. It's here. Not E.T. Good guess. I mean, it's not return of the jedi no no i mean generational i really mean it here not et good guesses that i mean it's about a generation oh uh it's not american graffiti it is the big chill oh gosh that's interesting yes uh 1983 the big how much of love's fun sex fun and friendship can a person take yeah that's the tagline for The Big Chill. Huge hit. Yeah. I was having this conversation

the other day about how like, like Motown embraced that movie and released the soundtrack on their label. Right. And it was like this big boost to all those old artists. It made Motown white.

Yeah. If they were just like, here's this movie about like, White yuppies enjoying black music. Right. I just, the think pieces for that. While they're doing their chores

in their summer home. No, it's dreadful. While they're washing the dishes. The Big Chill is, the think pieces for that. While they're doing their chores in their summer home. No, it's dreadful. While they're washing the dishes. The Big Chill is, right, it's kind of an, you know, whatever. Disgrace racially? Well, sure. I mean, not that these people would have, you know, non-white friends, but I've only seen it once on my grandma's TV. They couldn't have gotten into that college anyway.

Yeah. Because what is it? Is it Grand Canyon that's kind of trying to be like Gen X Big Chill or whatever? Yes, Grand Canyon. Grand Canyon is so glad we're talking about Grand Canyon. I have not seen. I saw the Big Chill as a teenager on my grandma's TV in Utica on like a 12 inch screen. That's how I remember the Big Chill.

Sure. With my mom constantly interjecting, being like, you don't understand. Like, you know, like. You don't get it. Let me try to explain to you. with my mom constantly interjecting being like you don't understand like you know like i think that's how i mean i think i like half watched it as like a 10 or 12 year old on tv and my dad trying to explain to me like but this was like when it came out it was kind of blew everyone's mind definitely worth re-watching as an adult because it was such an adult movie when like you know entertain children's children Star Wars is for children right

Big Chills for adults never the tween shall meet right right this weird branching off point where Kasdan has like fucking launched Indiana Jones

and done the Star Wars sequels and is like and now I make movies for the yuppies right number two the box office is James Bond film

in 83 but it's a weird one it's a weird one it's not Never Say Never Again it is Never Say Never Again which you say doesn't count it does not count it is a weird one. It's a weird one. It's not Never Say Never Again. It is Never Say Never Again. Which you say doesn't count. It does not count. It is a remake of Thunderball.

It's a bad movie, but it is directed by Irving Kirshner. Yeah. Number three. Who's, Empire Strikes Back follow-ups were not good. His best work. No, it's true.

We're behind. Number three of the box office is a stand-up movie. It's a stand-up comedy film. No. No, no. It's not like a movie about stand-up comedy. It's not Eddie Murphy, but a comic of that renown.

A comic of that... Is it a Richard Pryor? Yes. Live on the Sunset Strip? No. It's the later one. What's the later one? Is it the name of the venue? Or does it have a catchy title? It's a, you know, it's a catchy title, I guess. a you know it's a catchy title i guess

i don't think richard pryor here and now oh oh i think it's his last concert movie yes at least that was released in theaters yes yeah you know george carlin's never been funny and i'm sick of seeing all this shit about abortion with his face connected to it that's all when will jesus bring the pork chops i've i've never listened to george carlin's comedy i know nothing of george carlin yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna be sure i like judd apatow's gary shanling doc yeah well gary shanling doc was amazing i liked the carlin doc just because i could have lost 45 minutes same Same Lenny review. But I loved it. I thought it was a beautifully made doc. I couldn't watch that George Carlin movie if you gave me money.

I love Shanling. Like, I genuinely loved him as an artist. Whereas Carlin, I watched that and I think he is very interesting. You did watch it? I did. I did. I had COVID. I was stuck in bed. It went up. COVID! COVID! If only George carlin were alive

yeah you got your back you got your madert yeah no but i i was like yeah i was stuck in bed and i was like yeah give me five hours and i do he is interesting as a figure he is interesting met a million guys no a million guys like that i'm not saying him i'm saying in terms of like charting the way the comedy evolves around him sure he's almost like a force impact line across the different absolutely influence more than it yeah anyway i didn't mean to interrupt i like i like the jeans he wore over the years this is true but this is the thing i have no negative carlin i've just right. I've just never done it. I've never. I watched this five hours

and I was like, I should fucking put on a Carlin special. And then I put it on and I was like, I don't really enjoy watching this. Yeah. I find his existence

interesting. Five hours. Yeah. I know. Well, COVID. Number four at the box office was number one the week before. Okay.

It is a comedy flop. It's got big stars. Big flop. 83 comedy. Okay. It is a comedy flop. It's got big stars. Big flop, 83 comedy stars. Yeah, big director. Big director. Is it John Landis? No. It's not Best Defense, is it?

No, but it is a military arms comedy. Is it the Chevy Chase, Gregory Hines? Yes, Sigourney Weaver. And it's called Deal of the Century? Yes, and who directed it? It's directed by, it's directed by William Friedkin? An Oscar winning director, William Friedkin. Oh, interesting.

Not someone who screams Chevy Chase comedy. They're arms dealers? Yes, Chevy Chase is an arms dealer. And I don't know, you know, whatever. That's one of those movies where I remember seeing the video box and turning it around and being like this is a fucking thing? What are you fucking talking about? The posters all three of them with like aviators

giving a thumbs up. My head would spin like Reagan's The Exorcist away from the television screen. It doesn't make a full rotation. No it would just look away. Away from the screen. What's over there? Not this movie It had opened number one the week before

It's dropped to number four So clearly people are like, P.E.U. Number five of the box office is An early film from a big star Early film big star Still a big star A cruise? It's a cruise

It's a cruise It's a cruise It's not Risky Business a cruise it's not risky business no it's even earlier pre is it taps not taps is it it's not losing it not losing it it's not all the right moves it is all the right okay there you go well i got there you see his dick in it yeah i watched a cocktail for the first time that's a conf Cocktail is... My mother's always had a crush on Brian Brown. Brian Brown's kind of hot in it. I get it. Brian Brown in Cocktail also is playing it like he's in a drama.

Yes. And the movie is sort of like, eh, who cares, right? But he is definitely trying to be locked in in that movie. That movie is bizarre. It's bizarre. It is so bizarre. Because it's like Tom Cruise wants to be a big hit in that movie. That movie is bizarre. It's bizarre. It is so bizarre. Because it's like Tom Cruise wants to be a big hit in the city. He can't figure it out.

He can't get hired. Right. So he becomes a waiter at a bartender at TGI Fridays. And he's so good at it that he gets to be a bartender at a better bar. Right. And then that falls apart when he cheats on his girlfriend for no good reason. Yeah. As part of like a bar. Right. And then that falls apart when he cheats on his girlfriend for no good reason as part of like a bet.

Right. And then the movie cuts to like three years later and they're in Jamaica or the Bahamas or whatever. Yes. They're in the Caribbean.

Uh-huh. And then it becomes kind of like a murder movie or like not like like kind of like Brian Brown is underwater. I just remember the poem. The poem is everything.

The stuff in the, yeah. Yeah. I was digging into it. I mean, it sounds like it was like It was a tougher script that got sanded it. I mean, it sounds like it was like. It was a tougher script that got sanded down. They were trying to make like Bright Lights Big City or some shit. Oh, really?

I just watched it at a slumber party. Yeah. It's a slumber party movie. This is what's confounding about it. And then at some point they were just like, we got to make it a fucking Tom Cruise movie. And they like reshot half of it. And it becomes more about him winning back Elizabeth Shue. Her being a secret rich girl in the penthouse and all that sort of shit.

But like the murder mystery of Kelly Lynch gets sort of like punted. It's very bizarre. It's very bizarre. Kokomo though. Oh yeah.

Aruba, Jamaica. Do I want to take it? Et cetera. Some of the movies in the top 10. The Dead Zone. Oh sure. Fabulous movie.

Amazing movie. Inspiration for one of my favorite SNL sketches of all time what's that Ed Glosser Trivial Psychic do you remember this one oh yeah that's funny

it's when Walken went on I think his first time hosting Promote the Dead Zone and he's a guy where anytime anyone touches them he gets a premonition

of the most trivial thing that's about to happen in their life you're gonna get coffee it's gonna be a little too hot burn me no just

yeah a little too hot that's funny No just Yeah A little too hot That's funny For people I wasn't even trying to do a walking impression I don't want to fail I don't want to even try The right stuff

Oh sure Educating Rita Good movie Is Return of the Jedi in here anywhere? Yes Number 18 It's been out for Half a year

Sure I'm just saying It's interesting that even The culture Has changed so much by This point That certainly Half a year into Star Wars I'm just saying, it's interesting that even the culture has changed so much by this point that certainly half a year into Star Wars' run, it was higher up. Empire Strikes Back was higher up. Now these things are

fizzling out faster. But it's made whatever, hundreds of millions of dollars. It's a big hit. Ewok, don't run to the theater. I just remember that was a thing Entertainment Weekly said. Really? Yeah. And then, yeah, what's your Fosse 5 It's tough

Well no it's easy to make the 5 Because he didn't make a 6 film I feel like I go All that jazz above Tambourine I do too but I'm not sure about it I'm not sure about it either It's also the thing...

Do you, Julie? I don't know. I don't want to throw away Revolver because I like Abbey Road. It's impossible. I would put Cabaret and all that jazz as number one. They're both just absolute essential masterpieces. It's also just like all that jazz is about as defining a statement as an artist has ever made, right? Cabaret beat The Godfather.

No, I know. I'm just saying in terms of just like- No, I'm just trying to remember because I actually, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as you are in terms of context. It beat it for director, not for picture. Oh, it didn't?

Yes. It loses picture, it wins director. Oh, I didn't realize that. There's this weird Fosse-Coppola thing that we've talked about where it's- But what a fabulous- Oh, yeah. Despite that, director oh i didn't realize that there's this weird fossey coppola thing we've talked about what a fabulous oh yeah despite that yeah what a fat what what an undeniable masterpiece yes to you know to shoot for the king and your best not miss this is i mean what i said again i'm just

like do you know who he beat out for best director that year yeah francis for coppola in the godfather the guy we use as shorthand for directing a movie. Well, I mean, there's just the thing. Unfortunately, the cabaret just feels more and more relevant as time goes on. It just feels like this incredibly shot of the distorted Nazis and the fucking end is just, we'll never not be haunting.

People hadn't seen a movie about the Holocaust and not just the hog, but also in the tradition of great musicals gypsy by the way best musical ever not my favorite my favorite is sunday in the park okay the best musical ever is gypsy it's at the end of vaudeville yeah the idea that this is the end of uh weimar and the beginning of something and it is the period of dread and great art just a complaint people it's like the producers being like oh my god you don't think of it this was less than a generation away you're right and this guy comes out with i mean fine the mafia sure this on there are there are i mean pauline kale, but otherwise, there are no words.

What a masterpiece. I agree. Yeah, I don't know. I'd say Cadbury Photo Finish number two for me, and then I guess I'd go... You'd go Star 80, Sweet... No. No, I think I'd go Lenny. Interesting.

Star 80, Sweet Charity. But it is this thing of just like, Sweet Charity is a lumpy movie that brings joy versus Star 80, a film that just makes me think very deeply about everything I hate about the world. You know, like I will. But have I convinced you that it's merely powerful, not fabulous? I think you you have certainly you. It would be wild to call that movie fabulous. Yeah. Or even great.

Yeah, I'll say this. Like, I don't know if I will ever, ever watch it ever again in my life. And just even academically feel the need to study it. But that's experiential. No, no, I'm not saying... Even the quality that you watched it recently and you... Yeah. Yeah.

You still think it's a great film. I mean, you still made it's a great film i mean you still made it i i yeah yeah yeah but it's on a level with i don't know i wish she hadn't is that weird to say no it's not i wish she hadn't it's not no it's not weird to say i mean i i just it's a nasty thing to say about a thing though just to completely i wish you hadn't been born like what a terrible thing to say no no one you're not should i but it's not. No one, you're not wishing death on anyone. Maybe I should take it back. You're just wishing, you know.

You're talking millions of dollars and people's time. You're wishing a sliding doors moment in his career or whatever. It hurt women. It hurt people. It certainly didn't help anybody. Yeah, and I think you present a very pervasive argument for the damage of it. Yeah. Persuasive argument.

Persuasive, yes. And I think, I don't know, I think it's like, to some degree, the movie contains the evil I think it's about. Absolutely. It perpetuates it.

That's what I'm fascinated by. So the question is like, am I giving it credit for capturing the thing that I think it is? Is it doing that with any insight or is it just merely

like fucking trapping an evil genie in a bottle? But then you need self-awareness in order to make something great. These are complicated questions. Yeah.

But Sweet Charity, thank God it exists. There are people finding Rich Man's Frug on YouTube every day. Yeah. I mean, the pieces of Sweet Charity

are unbelievable. Absolutely. Rhythm of Life is a joy. So is that your thing? I'm a brass band. I think it's my five Oh no sorry

Lenny is number three Star 80 number four I think Sweet Charity is number five Wow really? I think I have it But Sweet Charity's got those joyful This is what I'm saying It's like a fucking

Put Star 80 last You'll feel better about yourself I probably won't David what's your I have Star 80 last Although I'm not sure about It and Lenny Because like Lenny is a movie where I'm like sure About It and Lenny Like cause like Lenny Is a movie where I'm like

I think that's You know I didn't respond Too much to it But I do think it's like Beautifully made And well done And Star 80 Actually responded to it

Quite a lot But I also kind of Want to put it away In a corner I mean Lenny If someone showed you A video of someone Being shot in the head

You'd respond to that No I've seen that And I responded to that Differently Which I didn't like that either to be clear you know but like you know you you know when on youtube what's her name christine chopper i've seen that video but like once when i was a teenager someone showed me one but i mean like emotional reaction is not necessarily indicative no no no no but i'm like like

but i'm a film critic i see a lot of fucking. And a lot of movies just kind of wash over me. Like, I certainly, you know, I respect a movie that will provoke a reaction. No, it's not boring. Yeah. I'll say this, too. There are movies that, like, upset me that I don't give any credit to. Like, I don't think just eliciting an emotional response out of me, immediately I give credit.

But what a shame that he used his talent to make such a nasty... I cannot disagree with that. I go cabaret. I'm going to go cabaret, all that jazz, Sweet Charity, Lenny, Star Eating. I'm probably going to do the same,

but I can't compare cabaret and all that jazz. I'm going to put cabaret as the top as a very, very powerful, sentimental favorite movie that changed my life when I was 13 or whatever. When we're all dead, people should see cabaret first. Yeah.

All that chat. It's very close at those times. I mean, and I've just seen people preparing for these episodes, coming out, watching Cabaret for the first time, going like, holy fucking shit. That is not negotiable. I cannot believe how... Not negotiable. Yeah.

How modern this film still feels. How bracing it feels. Yeah. But that's it. That's Bob. What a time with Bob we've had. Bobby. Look, I've always wanted to do it

almost since the beginning of this podcast because i just think it is uh he he is his film career is not thought of as a complete sort of statement and for ups and downs it really is an interesting one i mean and just the the weird like the fact, does Coppola have a movie this year? The Outsiders is this year. Okay. Why? What's your, what? No, no, the thing of, like, Cabaret, Godfather, Godfather 2, Lenny, all that jazz, Apocalypse Now.

Sure, right. That they had this weird sort of, like, dance. Right, but now this is, they're both kind of in a weird decline. I know. Yeah. What would have lined up perfectly is if One from the Heart was the same year as this. Or Cotton Club, which is 84. Right, Cotton Club is the one that

should have been the same year as this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, eh. Life doesn't work out. Eh. Also, you have to put Sweet Charity above Star 80

because Sweet Charity is a movie musical and there are so few fabulous, exceptional movie musicals. It's true. And the guy knew how to fucking... I love Sweet Charity. To sync up his choreography with his filmmaking. Yes. In a way, the few did.

It's a shame that he didn't make more musicals. And speaking of a shame, and I think it is absolutely imperative that we say this, AIDS wiped out an entire generation of gay men who were disproportionately the most brilliant theater artists specifically not to mention artists um period yeah i think very frequently about what kind of filmmaker a michael bennett would have been or could have been bob fossey was an example of a director-choreographer that got a chance to make a film. And I think about all of the privilege

that all the people that AIDS took from us could have had just like him. Well, I mean, we did the... Musker and Clements, the Disney directors, a year or two ago, which ended up being a lot about Howard Ashman as well. And it's the pipeline of animation, the fact that things take years and years to get made,

means that even though he died so young, there were like three films with his fingerprints on them on top of Little Shop, right? Oh, Little Shop. Where like, he was able to have these films that were coming out years after he had died posthumously winning oscars and also like having that ripple effect on our understanding of

storytelling at large yes like even though he never got the chance to direct the films himself right you're like that's a guy who somehow was able to overcome yes the limited time yeah yeah but i do like adam Shankman. But what could he have done? Director Carver. Yeah. Who was able to direct and choreograph

Hairspray. Yes. The fabulous. That's another fabulous movie musical. Agreed. And so much of the visual language takes

cues from the choreography and the editing. So what a shame. What a shame. What a shame. Yep. I agree.

Very well said. Yeah. This has been our. Very well said. Yeah. This has been our mini-series on Bob Fosse. Julie, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks, Julie. Is there anything you want to plug? Yeah.

I mean, double threat. Double threat. Yeah, double threat. Yeah, I just, it was very, very challenging watching this in the aftermath of Roe v. Wade and just thinking about women being treated like animals and we do not treat animals well. So it's a rough time. It was very, very, uh, um, really just, uh, grieving and painful. And, um, I, uh, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Not a plug. Just the thought. Absolutely. Um, thank you for having me on. Our pleasure. Long overdue.

Our next miniseries proper is Stanley Kubrick, our March Madness competition winner. Well, please think about Star 80 when you talk about Clockwork Orange. We will. It's a good connective tissue. Think about how people say rape isn't about sex unless you shoot it real sexy.

It is a movie I've not seen I think since I was 13 years old and I'm very curious to rewatch. Fear and Desire, Killer's Kiss. One episode. Yeah, combining them and then one episode per movie after that. Pods, wide cast. No, we're going to combine 2001 and Barry Lyndon.

We'll double them up, it's going to be a short one, too. We'll double them up. It's going to be like 80 minutes. Yeah. It'll be like our fucking THX American Graffiti.

Sure. No, we're not doing that. But yeah, our first Kubrick episode is Killer's Kiss and Fear and Desire. Yeah. Yeah.

And it'll be interesting to cover his movies. I mean, it's like, especially after coming off of Fosse, where all these movies are about, like, this guy working through all his fucking demons. Right.

The Kubrick movies, it's, there's obviously just the whole thing of, like, who the fuck was this guy? Sure. You know? Weird mystery god, man. I think how hard he worked to try to keep himself out of his movies. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it.

Yeah. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for her social media and helping put the show together. Alex Barron, A. Yeah. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping put the show together. Alex Barron, AJ McKeon for our editing. Thank you to JJ Birch

for our research, putting together the Fossiers, which I know were particularly difficult ones, especially this one. Yeah, I think this one was annoying. I think he had fun, though. He liked it.

He did, but there's some difficult, some difficult material. Oh, yeah. This series. Thank you to Joe Bone and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Lane Montgomery, the great American elf,

for our theme song. Go to blankcheckpod.com for some real nerdy shit, including Blank Check special features, our Patreon page, where we do commentaries on franchises like the Roger Moore James Bonds. Yes.

That's what we're doing. Right. Yes, that's what we're doing. That's what we're doing right yes that's what we're doing that's what we're doing tune in next week for whatever we just told you is coming next week right and as always hail satan hail satan great hail satan