Blank Check with Griffin & David - Steve Jobs with Olivia Craighead

Episode Date: April 16, 2023

Calling all Sorkinistas - we’re walking, talking, and putting 1,000 songs in your pocket! Based on Walter Isaccson’s best-selling biography of the original Apple Genius, STEVE JOBS puts Danny Boyle in David Fincher’s shoes. What did we learn about this movie from the notorious Sony hacks? Is Michael Fassbender too hot to play Steve Jobs? Would it surprise you to learn that Ben Hosley is a life-long Mac user? Olivia Craighead returns to the pod and joins the Five Timers Club in spectacular fashion with a special throwback burger report. Plus - we do NOT thank the Apple II team, and David has strep. This episode is sponsored by: ZocDoc (zocdoc.com/check) Indeed (indeed.com/check) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

I came here because you're going to get killed. Your computer is going to fail. You got a college and university advisory board telling you they need a powerful workstation for $2,000 to $3,000. You price next at $6,500, and that doesn't include the optional $3,000 hard drive, which people discover isn't optional because the optical disk is too weak to do anything, and the $2,500 laser printer brings the total $12,000. And in the entire world, you're the only person that cares that it's housed in a perfect cube. You're going to get killed. And I came here to stand next to you. Well, that happens because

that's what friends do. That's what men do. I don't need your pass. We go back, so don't talk to me like I'm other people. I'm the only one that knows that this guy here is someone you invented. And I'm standing by you because that perfect cube that does nothing is about to be the single biggest failure in the history of podcasting. Tell me something else I don't know.

You added one extra word. What's that? It's just tell me something. Oh, no, you did. You got it perfect. I got it perfect. You got it perfect. It's definitely know. You added one extra word. What's that? It's just tell me something. Oh, no, you did. You got it perfect. I got it perfect. You got it perfect. It's definitely a yes.

You got it perfect. I didn't cue David the line. I wanted to see if he would know the response. I mean, but I don't, you didn't even need my, you had it. No, but it's a nice little punchline. Yeah, sure. Should I put podcast in from the beginning maybe instead of every time he says the word computer?

We're a variation thereof're variation there i think you i think you nailed it yeah you did great you did i like i don't know if you noticed this i've been trending towards uh quotes that make it sound like our podcast is terrible yeah you like to do that because i just think why not get it out of the way i'm kind of surprised you didn't go i'm gonna put a thousand podcasts in your pocket so i thought you might do that because that is the almost the most derided quote from this movie in a way. Incorrectly. Correct. Our guest is

correct and it is incorrectly derided. We're going to get to it. Sure. We're going to get to everything. We're not going to leave one stone unturned, my friend. Can I just... But I'm trying to think of other, you know, sitters that you could have... That was a good one. I'm trying to think of other sitters that you could have... That was a good one.

I'm trying to think of what else. I play the orchestra. I feel like that's one of the biggest exchanges, which comes right before this, but it doesn't... You can't slot podcast in as cleanly. Well, it's like hosts play their instruments. I podcast the orchestra. I was thinking you could have done,

when Lisa is talking, think different. You're asking people to think differently. You could have said, that looks like Judy Jetson's Easy Bake podcast. That's a good burn. She kind of kicks his ass there. She does. She folds him like laundry.

David, recently we did our episode on Sunshine. I should say what this is. I should say what we're doing here. The single biggest failure in the history of modern podcasting. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about

filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce baby. This is an odd case of a movie very much

still being a post-Oscar blank check for Danny Boyle despite coming off of two relative disappointments. An underperformer and an outright flop. This is a bit of a blank check even though everyone involved in this movie knows that they were not the first choice. Yeah, I was about to say

it's not his blank check. It's such an odd It's Sorkin's blank check. He got to do the movie his way. He did. He had plenty of ideas. He brought his own sensibility to it. But yeah, he was. He and Fastbender were coming in knowing they're bridesmaids and knowing that the public knows that. That's the other

unique thing. Well, I'm sure you agree with me. I think that was the problem. Yeah. And unique thing. Well, I'm sure you agree with me. I think that was the problem. Yeah. And I rarely think people care about inside baseball stuff like that. But I do think this movie came out and it was kind of like, you know, this was actually going to be a big fucking movie star movie. Anyway, it's got Magneto in it. I don't know.

Enjoy. Look, Trance is just an odd duck in the middle of the two. I have not seen Trance. It's a weird one. Olivia. I don't check it out. I might even say, I might even say required.

Might even say must see. I might even say we're given it. What's our new, we need a new must see title. The blanky seal of approval. Yeah. Yeah. No,

you, I think you'll, um, I think you'll appreciate it's a chaotic nature. Okay. Nothing else. And it's, it's short. It's short. It's quick. Is if nothing else. And it's short.

It's short. It's quick. Is that the selling point? That it's short and chaotic? McAvoy. Well, now I am sold. Rosario Dawson. Okay.

Vincenzo. Vincent Cassell. Yeah. Sure. They're all horny. They're all crazy. They're all doing twists. And all star cast and a distinct lack of pubic hair, which is a really good combination for a modern thriller.

And it's not the kind of thing you would think matters crucially to the plot, but in Trance, it does. Almost nothing has mattered more to any plot. But anyway, anyway, yes. All of this to say, Trance, odd duck in the middle, right? But coming off of Slumdog Millionaire. He won Best Picture for Slumdog Millionaire, which is a huge hit. For a fucking international blockbuster, right?

And then everyone's like, Danny Bull, he's going to be able to keep delivering these fucking Oscar triumphs. These accessible, broad, emotional Oscar triumphs. He does two movies in a row that on paper felt like they should have worked. And in both cases, they kind of got fucked by narratives outside of their control. Yes. I mean, I think at the end of the day, everyone involved in 127 Hours can be like, look, we got a Best Picture nomination. Absolutely. It was a success.

It was a mild success. There was just that moment where, as is often the case with blank check filmmakers, when a movie becomes such an unexpected blockbuster, people go, I guess this guy has the formula now. He's got the magic recipe. go i guess this guy has the formula now he's got the magic recipe if he could turn slumdog millionaire into like a 400 million dollar success he'll make the fucking arm in a cave movie work yeah this will be a hit i forgot that slumdog millionaire was like that big of a movie humongous it is it was everywhere i mean when everything everywhere won yeah my editor asked me at the atlantic yeah where i work um you know what was the last film that was this big a hit and I immediately knew the answer

because we're doing this podcast Slumdog Millionaire that's the last movie that was a genuine hit and Slumdog Millionaire made more than twice as much as everything all of us domestically and like three times as much worldwide four times as much

King's Speech also did quite well slumdog better yeah but you know but no slumdog but no but those were the last two that were like they're like big and obviously king speech was a very uh successful post oscar type but this is this thing we've been talking about i mean examining the oddness of slumdog a thing that feels like it couldn't totally happen on that scale anymore, that there are movies that become hits because of the Oscar campaign. Like, everything about All at Once. And, like, ride the tide of the Oscar campaign.

Right, that's the final victory lap for a movie that was already a hit. And these were movies that, like, caught on. The Oscar buzz made them big. They continued to play big. They played big for months after winning. All this to say, this is a miniseries

on the films of Danny Boyle. It is called Trainspot Casting. Yeah. Yeah, you literally called it something else in our last episode. My brain's been a little fried.

Two episodes ago, actually. Yes. I called it Slumpod Million Cast, which was an alternate name. 127 Hours. Yeah. Does okay. Gets a Best Picture nom.

Trance, that comes out and everyone's like let's just hey i didn't see it you didn't see it you know forget about it yeah and look it does help him that everyone gets one of those right i have absolutely and everyone loved the olympic ceremony and it's like he was doing double duty he was doing both the same shit that was the fox searchlight deal that was post slumdog anything you want under 40 million dollars immediate green light so he does two of those one of them does okay one of them does horrifically but it's like trance didn't because trance wasn't expensive right couldn't he be what it wasn't a failure i don't think it was held against him yeah but it's not like a noxious bomb it's more

just a kind of like let's just agree we're just gonna put that one in a box i don't think it sticks to him but i also think fox searchlight is like maybe not anything maybe you have to explain the movie to us before we give you the money he has yet to work with them again yeah uh he makes this for universal of course this was a sony project as i'm sure we will discuss but of course this was distributed by the good folks at the spinning globe of universal yes and then t2 train spotting is sony sony as well although obviously that's like film four yeah and then yesterday he went right back to the spinning globe right and he was almost always a fox guy in one way or another up until this point yeah yeah which also maybe accounts for

his slowdown of his career. Like, Fox really seemed to... Slowdown millionaire. Well. Hey. Thank you. Open the doors wide for him. Today we're talking Steve Jobs.

Yep. Our guest today. Returned to the show for the fourth? Maybe. Maybe fifth. Olivia. This is the question. Wait a second.

Rachel getting married. Rachel getting married. To love a game. Flight. Flight. Mikey and Nikki. Five! Five! Oh, oh. the question wait a second rachel getting married rachel getting a lot of game flight flight mikey and nicky here's the deal yeah hang my jersey up in the rafters because you're out this is the this is the only other movie i'd ever want to talk about. No, that's not true. But this is, I think, despite being helmed by two non-Americans, one of the great American films.

This is all I've ever wanted to talk about on this show. And now we're here and we're doing it. Thank God. And can I tell you a funny story? Please. Which is that many, many... We love funny stories. It's kind of a funny story. It's kind of a funny story? Please. Which is that many, many... We love funny stories. It's kind of a funny story.

It's kind of a funny story starring Zach Galifianakis. Anyone else think they were teasing that they're going to do a Bowdoin Fleck miniseries next? David said kind of a funny story and then they all paused. Does anyone else think it would fit in really well? It's only eight episodes. I like us jumping on the Doughboy's bandwagon of outright mocking our listeners. I'm trying to find the right... Or the stupid voice.

Because Weig's has the best stupid listener voice. I don't like that they did that. And then Scott on Podcast The Ride has started a really good one now. He's like, actually, I love the trees they put in the theme park. And I'm like, I gotta find our annoying guy voice. Anyway, sorry, give us a funny story.

Okay, so many years ago, I was walking down the street in the east village and my friend i was on my way to my friend's apartment and he called me and he said can you look into the window of whitman's this restaurant on 7th street and see who is in there you'll see him he's famous but i don't know who he is i look in and immediately i'm like it's danny boyle And he's eating a hamburger. Wait a second. Years after that. Wait a second. I called in to the burger hotline.

What? And I said, I one time saw Danny Boyle eating a burger. And now, years after that. You can finally get it on the air. Here I am. I think it got on the air is the thing. Is this before we knew you? Yes, before.

When I was simply a fan. You know what, Olivia? My brother texted me and was like, did you call into, what was it called? The Burger Report? The Burger Report. Okay. My brother texted me. I never heard it. Shout out to your brother.

Great follow on the letterbox. And he was like, did you call in? And I was like, yeah, I think a while ago. And he was like, well, I just heard it. Because I guess I wasn't sticking around to the end of the episodes. I think you did. Did we unknowingly play Olivia Craig? You did.

Oh my God. Olivia, I regret to inform you, you are correct. This is your last episode. No. It's full circle. It's full circle. That's kind of the thing. How does it get fucking better than this?

How could you get better than this? Make new friends. Keep the old. Someone is over the other's goal. Yeah. I don't know why I did that. I think this is the first time someone has gone from burger reporter to guest. And unknowingly, only finding out in the fifth appearance as it all ties in back together.

And how did Danny look? He looked great. The burger at Whitman's is great. Normal-sized noggin? No. He looks like James and the Giant Peach. He looks like little stop-motion James and the Giant Peach. Whitman's was the place that did the Juicy Lucy, right?

They also do the peanut butter on the burger. It's one of the few places you can get peanut butter on. It's still there, I think. Midwestern. Yeah, no, I've been there. Yeah, it's good shit. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's good shit. Juicy Lucy, please. David's getting over strep throat. I'm off to direct Steve Jobs. David is getting over strep throat. I'm off to direct Steve Jobs. David is getting over strep throat. I sure am. And Olivia was saying he sounds more NPR today

because there's a little bit of gravel. Well, but you were also saying kind of, you know, Wolfman Jacket. Yeah, a little like late night radio. And I said, sweaty balls. Sweaty balls. David's sounding for sweaty balls. Yeah.

We should, though, we'll play, we'll replay. Yeah We should though We'll play We'll replay Yeah We'll find it The Burger Report Okay I might like sound totally different Like I have I don't remember when I sent it in

Oh my god Hi guys Yeah literally I might sound like that I might I think I was in college I think I was truly like a A baby

You You Were baby I was baby Um That is amazing Umve jobs is our film i can't remember when we first admitted to each other that not that this is some dark secret but when we first agreed that we both loved the movie steve jobs yeah it's kind of something that's like

spoken about in dark rooms almost certainly in those early years yeah i think it's like sort of come around now it's like like 10 degrees below like what master and commander is now master commander has entered some that's like stadium but i think i think in 20 years however long it's been since master and commander i think steve jobs will have a hive Since Master Commander? Yeah, 2003 Yes, I think you're right I think in 2035 As the nice warm Atlantic Ocean Is lapping in our faces Or whatever's going on

You'll still be writing for the Atlantic Oh boy, I got a new boss Jesus I do feel I do find that this film's esteem Has only grown Now that's partly because when it came out It was received kind of tepidly

And was perceived as a disappointment Can I get this out of the way? Yeah, you didn't like it Absolutely not You thought it was boring I thought it was stinky poo poo I don't think I thought it was boring I remember you just kind of being like boring

No, no, no that was not my that was not my take fuck off um no i i was i was kind of uh it was a sorkin breaking point for me oh really it was a like i can't abide by this anymore this is all of his control yeah sure sure well looking back at that now well yes look we have to okay i didn't know how good we had yeah exactly in a lot of ways kind of like a great sorkin piece to me especially with the context of what happens after this i agree and i think i also was perhaps like too many other people caught up on the like, fuck, but imagine the fucking version with Bale and Fincher, you know, or like imagine if Ridley Scott did this. Imagine if David's ex. Yeah.

Can I say a version with Bale would not be as good as this one. A version with DiCaprio, I think, would be bad. Probably. I think DiCaprio would have. It's one of those things where you're kind of like, oh, look, you know, I'd pay to see what that looks like as long as it doesn't take my movie away. Sure.

But I can't imagine that being a good idea. No. I remember my big take being at the time that I wish Danny Boyle and Ridley Scott had swapped projects and Danny Boyle had done The Martian and Ridley Scott had done this. That's crazy. Those are two amazing movies. That was my take at the time it's a bad take and i liked the martian

um but but that the movie comes out in the first year of us doing this podcast we disagreed on it over the years yeah your opinion of this film has only grown that's the thing i've never rewatched a lot yes but i too had shame and yes in my heart yes and and i you know i think i was probably putting it more like a sort of an eight out of ten or whatever like i thought it was good but i was kind of in my head like i can't think that that's the best the sort of failed sure steve jobs biopic how embarrassing and middle brow of me to me to think, you know, Danny Boyle. And, you know, you have the, oh, Fincher. Oh, what would he have done? Oh, it's so scary. It never would have been mean.

Oh, very good. Very good. Yes, that's what that movie means. And then I watched it again. I remember I took my then-girlfriend, now my ex-girlfriend, a.k.a. my wife. Condolences. That's a John Mulaney joke. And then he he of course

split up with his wife yeah um but uh that's less funny part of the joke well well you know um and i remember i took uh forky to see it and i walked out of that you know you know so i first started the new york film festival and i was like oh yeah and then i took a soft fork took a forky and she was like that sucked and I was like yeah I think I liked it more that was my kind of opinion and the face you made

of just like I was exhausted by this thing right this wore me down I watched it again with her last night I was like

remember you saw this with me in the theater and she was like no memory of that whatsoever don't do not remember that you are lying I'm like no no we went whatsoever don't do not remember that you are lying

wow i'm like no no we went to the regal court street we saw it uh watched it with her sobbed through the whole movie because that's what it does to me now and she was like more positive on it maybe but yeah it was also like shopping on her laptop for most of it eight years of doing this show you've had this this growing relationship with it and then we make friends we have recurring guests on the show like olivia like alex ross perry there are people who are entering our orbits who are like secretly i love this too i think it's a masterpiece so i've just i have not i've let go of my opinion outside of i didn't like it at the time in in preparing to watch this yeah and then watched it last night and was like

what was the moment where i started to turn on this watching in theaters i remember going into it incredibly excited sure and then my my enthusiasm we were all pretty pro sorkin because social network and money money ball right you know we were all kind of like he's back now the newsroom was out there and we were all kind of being like well the newsroom was hard as some as a sorkinista i did watch every episode of the newsroom the thing about the newsroom is sorkin himself is like he's doesn't he's kind of he's like i swung hard and i missed yeah which is funny because jeff daniels is like best role i ever had and it's like all right jeff of course he thinks that he's the center he gets to make monologue right he gets to do so much uh but but i yes i think i i'm watching it going huh i'm enjoying this sure sure sure what's the moment i start to turn on this thing okay and the only moment where i really felt it

started to push back on me was fucking a thousand songs in your pocket and that was so stuck in my craw from when i saw it the first time and i was like i was enjoying everything so thoroughly that i was like you know what this line's gonna play differently from this time now this movie is working for me it's gonna hit and i'm not saying i flipped over my laptop i'm not saying it turned the movie negative for me but i did bump on it. Can I ask, what about it is like sticking in your craw? Why don't people like it? Because I really...

Let's just jump to the fucking end. Let's just do it. I actually just cannot understand. You already brought up the beginning, which is why I think we need to say this. I really have watched this movie so many times. And I pretty much like everything else about the movie. And every time I watch it, though, we get to that scene. Yeah.

And I'm sitting there and I'm like, how could you not like this? You're waiting for it to, like, whatever. I'm waiting for it to click to me why people are like, this is so stupid. I think, I will let Griffin talk, but I do think people just sort of felt, like, too obvious. We don't need him to say that. We know he's going to run the iPod. He doesn't need to, you know, articulate that. I think that's a part of it for me.

I think the larger part of it for me, and perhaps this is a very, very pedantic complaint. Yeah, if it didn't really fit in pockets that well early on. Well, you had to swap shirts with someone who had the pocket that was the right size. No, I think it is the

fact that he looks at her, he looks at the Walkman, he sort of like snaps his finger and points at her, and then delivers it as what was then the final tagline we knew to sell the iPad. iPod. The iPod was a thousand songs in your pocket, right? Right. I think if he went, you know what, I'm going to make something so you can get rid of that stupid Walkman. Right. I think if he went, you know what? I'm going to make something so you can get rid of that stupid Walkman. Right.

I'm going to invent something small. I'll put a thousand songs in your pocket. Right. It would bump for me less than the fact that he looks at her and goes, I'm going to put a thousand songs in your pocket. And he just immediately, first draft,

lands on the billboard. But that's what he's... He knows the number. That's his whole thing. I know. But, okay okay it's two things though one of course that is kind of his whole mystique yes but two he can only relate to his daughter through his own fucking invention it's so incredible and tragic he can only he only

knows how to make promises the only way he can reach her in this moment of absolute human like she's so distraught is he's like what if I made a better fucking Walkman for you? But I like that. Oh my God. Because it's also like. I am now sold on that. I don't like him saying literally verbatim. Okay.

I'm going to put it past. Touch it. I do. You gotta fucking touch grass. It sucks. No, it doesn't. iPods are better. The other thing about that scene.

Yeah. This is why I was worried about having strep for this recording. Yes. Is that he tries to relate to her the other way. Of course. He says, I want to read one of your essays right now. Yes. As if she has it in the car.

Of course. I'm glad that she doesn't go like, oh, here's one. He's trying to be a human for like two seconds and it doesn't work. And then the only way he can be like, I love you. Yes. Is to say this thing. And I understand that it's too clean. I like it dramatically. I don't like the line.

It's an Aaron Sorkin script. People are reciting legal briefs to each other. It's insane. I have accepted all of this now. We're starting this off with a crazy energy. It was inevitable. I just went and I knew what the structure of this movie was, right?

There had been so much shit with the Sony hack, the script bouncing around for so long. And but also it had just been talked about. The Sorkin was so good at selling himself where he's like, yes, it's a big unwieldy autobiography. I've summed it into three scenes. It's brilliant. Also, there was this thing. We're going to get into all of this, right? But there was this whole thing of just like Steve Jobs dies dies very suddenly dramatically it makes a huge impact culturally cancer and everyone

goes well fuck they gotta they gotta make the steve jobs movie right well it wasn't just that he died the book came right out right around the same time and yeah and it's like well this is gonna be the thing and suddenly like multiple who will play steve jobs multiple projects are popping up but the whole promise everyone i think went well aaron sorkin should write steve jobs like it was just the immediate assumption from everyone of that's what would make sense we all just love social network what are the phone calls that sorkin gets yeah that he doesn't say yes to because i'm sure there are some because like that's the thing you always hear it's the same with the fucking chic 7 movie was that Spielberg was just like

you know about the Chicago 7 and Sorkin's like not really a little bit he's like well you should make a movie about it that's Sorkin's thing with like all of his like real life stuff is that someone comes to him and is like because Sorkin's just a weirdo

yeah someone like I think for the social network the like book proposal was going around and someone was like you read this like you know anything about Facebook and he was like no you read this? Like, you know anything about Facebook? And he was like, no. You never hear Sorkin being like, you know, I was in my Russian history phase. Like it's like, I don't know what Aaron Sorkin does all day, but it's not like absorb things. Like people just sort of put stuff in front of him and he sort of like figures out the angle.

I basically didn't know what Facebook was and the book didn't exist yet. I was writing the movie parallel to them writing the book. It was just the notion of this them writing the book it was just the notion of this guy's in two lawsuits simultaneously right yeah but he was like well that's my in and then i have to figure out what the fuck facebook is but but the other thing is that he's just like you know what he did it because he's trying to get over a girl and everyone's like well i that i mean sure maybe there was some girl absolutely and that's probably bullshit and he's like well i'm doing it and like, well, that was a great idea by you.

Good job, buddy. And similarly, look, he's using the Steve Jobs movie. He's putting so much to the prism of him as a father and as a son. Right? Well, there's three movies in a row that he writes that I call the Sorkin Dad Trilogy. Moneyball. This. Molly's Game.

Yeah. They're all so clearly about his experience is a very flawed father yeah being like as the father of a daughter like as a kind of fucked up guy and also one of these guys who's basically like i i would maybe be dead if i hadn't had this kid right yeah like this even though i know i'm a i'm a i'm a flawed dad for all my failings this is the only thing that has even saved me to a degree and he relates to these people billy bean steve jobs molly's dad i don't know kevin costner he relates to them in ways that are are crucial to the success of those movies yeah yeah like to their flaws yeah yeah and anyway everyone the the public is basically like assuming this movie will exist. Well, obviously Fincher and Sorkin should just make the Steve Jobs movie.

Well, right. It was because they'd made a tech movie together. Right. It's like, yeah, sure. Right. And a movie that everyone loved that was a huge hit that was like a big Oscar player, but ended up being an also ran outside of Sorkin winning the one you know major award for that movie it wins editing and score when editing a score yeah sorkin didn't win did he sorkin wins because he shouts out to his daughter he's like roxy go to bed it starts the daughter trilogy yeah he gives the speech so king speech was king speech seen as original no oh no social network original you're right yeah yeah that's right because i remember the king speech guy winning yes because he was a guy who'd had a stutter and he gave this

like whole like that's why this mattered to me so much like 80 and yeah he was like a really old guy he was like oh i don't remember it's never too late um right he did win okay so right yeah it was the um i remember it was the score win for social network that was the most surprising yes that felt like well if you fucking vibed with that. Right. Why are you assholes not giving it best picture? Like, you get it. Yeah.

You like the score. The score is the weirdest part. Yeah. What a great movie that is. It just felt like an obvious. Oh, it's perfect. Yeah. It just felt like an obvious thing.

Do you like Social Network? I, okay. Mark? I love the Social Network so much so that when I was a teenager, I owned it on DVD, would watch it on the family computer all the way through. Started again with the commentary so I could listen to Fincher and Sorkin do their thing. I was on like social network Tumblr, which was kind of vibrant community in the day. Like I am all in. Tumblr about Facebook?

Yeah, Tumblr about about facebook but tumblr specifically about mark and eduardo oh and like and andrew and jesse because they had kind of a a lot of chemistry during their press tour so yeah i love that i think andrew garfield could have chemistry with a paper bag that's he really kind of seems like his vibe yeah and as much as i love that movie and i love david fincher movies i think he would have made a completely different yeah look i will see any david fincher movie yeah i would see david fincher steve jobs but i don't think it would be the movie i love we love the finch we do love the finch man yeah we're just doing doughboys we're just doing doughboys um yep um but as you say

okay the public is like sorkinin and Fincher, get together. We have the movie in our mind's eye. Now, where's Bale? Where's Bale? Bale had just won the Oscar. He's Batman, I suppose, as well. The Batman run has ended, and he's won an Academy Award. Right.

So he's exited the what-don't-you-fucking-understand period of his life. Yes. And has entered the I'm getting nominated for oscars left and right right i'm now seen as kind of like an a-tier actor right respectable prestige actor it seemed like he doesn't want to go back to franchise shit he's gonna do serious movies in fact let me start on the dust and there's a bit of resemblance between him and steve jobs yes so the whole thing is like kutcher kind of looks like young Steve Jobs, which of course is why

we can touch on Kutcher. We can touch on him. I had the ambition of watching the Kutcher movie in preparation for this and I did not. I did too. I watched the trailer, which does feature a Macklemore needle drop

and about three different shots of Kutcher letting out like a primal scream. And I was like, I get it. But that is a, and I have seen it, but I haven't seen it. Like that is a much more straightforward, like let's bottle this whole life up, right? Like we'll just, you know, greatest hits.

I think I was listening, I was listening to Sorkin talk about something. And he said that that is the exact movie he didn't want to make. The movie that like starts with a little boy at the electronics store. Kind of cradle to grave. Yeah, exactly.

And he was like, why would I want to make that movie? But also, it's like, he dies, people start circulating the photos of young Steve Jobs, and people are like, oh, he looks like Ashton Kutcher, and you're like, this one time period. This one time period with this one haircut. It really is all it is. Right. The thing with Bale, the thing with anyone

is like, I don't know, just cut their hair, put them in a turtleneck, they kind of put some glasses on them, they kind of start to look like Steve Jobs. He's like, you don't know, just cut their hair, put them in a turtleneck. They kind of put some glasses on them. They kind of start to look like Steve Jobs. He's like, you know. You know, he didn't have like a tattoo on his face or something. He's like a somewhat generic looking guy. Right.

Bale's got a pretty, you know, straightforward Anglo-Saxon face. Yeah. So, September 28th, 2001. 2001-1. Okay. So, a week before Steve Jobs dies. Okay sony ceo michael linton and producer mark gordon are given the chance to read walter isaacson's biography of steve jobs which is about

to come out in a month what month did you say this was september 2011 okay so this is the same year that social network loses the oscar that's's true. Yes, exactly. Exactly. They read this book. Has anyone in the room read Walter Isaacson's Steve Jobs? No. David raises his hand. Great. It's a 650-page book, but they sit down and they read it in his agency. They call Amy Pascal and she buys the rights.

$1 million up front, $2 million more if the project gets made. So a hefty commitment from Sony Pictures. Now, basically, everyone had known that Jobs' health had been up and down for years because you would see at the keynotes, he'd come out. Right, and then they'd be like, he's on the mend. And then he'd show up for the next one and he'd be skeletal and whatever. That book was very much him sort of trying to like get his legacy put on record while he still had the time he gave ix an incredible

amount of access essentially knowing that he was possibly so even reading that book a month before he dies they're basically seeing like oh this guy's about to go this is gonna be the time to strike and do the definitive obviously it's not like the book was always going to come out october sure but like so it was it was accidental that it came out right after he died but right he i think certainly things got worse faster than people thought it was pancreatic cancer and he didn't seek normal treatment for it yeah um it was actually a special kind of cancer like it was treatable it doesn't matter you can read that in the book Yes So then they decide Let's bring in a bunch of really chill normal people

Scott Rudin and Aaron Sorkin And Rudin and Sorkin are like long time They worked together Obviously Rudin produces the social network Yeah And then they continue In between screaming at interns and throwing ashtrays Was that the first one though?

Is that the first I feel like they Rudin Sorkin thing? Well, it certainly wasn't the last because Rude Sorks also did To Kill a Mockingbird on Broadway. He sure did. This is the insane thing

is the reason why To Kill a Mockingbird closed or rather didn't reopen after being the most successful straight play in the history of Broadway. It was very successful. It's because basically Sorkin was like, you cannot be making money off this show.

Right. You need to take your name off of it. And he was like, fuck, you can't fire me. I quit. And there goes all the money. Held the show hostage. And Sorkin was like, I refuse to reopen it if Rudin's attached.

Yeah, well, Scott Rudin's an asshole. Yeah. He can fucking come at me if he wants to argue that point. Yeah. Just clear all the phones out of the room before he does. Seriously. Yeah.

Definitely no heavy ashtrays. No. Right. Or was that Weinstein? Someone threw ashtrays. I don't know. They're all bad people. Everyone's bad.

Sorkin, Olivia, as you say, reads the book, but it's like, I don't want to do a cradle to grave thing. Right. I want to do something else. He has this sort of play-like construct in his head, the three acts. It's three product launches. It's three backstage.

Steve Jobs needs to talk to everyone he's ever known his entire life before he announces a new product. Yes, it's the War Card approach. Five million dollars is what he collects for this screenplay. He actually reduced that salary later to try and get the movie made.

Wow, okay. But they're paying him a handsome fee for a screenplay. He actually reduced that salary later to try and get the movie made. But they're paying him a handsome fee for a screenplay. Basically, it's the moment where everyone wants him to do it. He knows he can name his price. And once again, he's like, I didn't really know anything about Steve Jobs. I knew the bullet points of that guy's life

like everybody else. The book is new to me. What's funny also about him is that at the like after the movie is made he's like i still don't really get it he's like i don't know he's like he's always like rectangles with rounded corners right okay sure sure but he had to like figure out how why this man was a god yeah which is what's so amazing about the movie but yes I think what he's relating to in this book, though, what a flawed person, bundle of contradictions. Why does he behave in ways that don't make sense,

but he wants everything he makes to be, like, perfect and simple and, you know, make total sense. Right, and hyperfixates on the, how could this guy deny his parentage of this girl for this long? It is the craziest thing about Steve Jobs, right? A thing that feels unfathomable to me, a father of a daughter. It becomes like, I need to interrogate this. As father of daughter.

But it also, it is the craziest, it's just, you're just like, he's the richest man alive, how could he possibly, you know. It's wild how much it was sort of discussed out in the open. It wasn't one of these things where it's like, oh, a Lissa Schwarzenegger love child now being acknowledged for the first time at the age of 20 where it's like, oh, Alyssa Schwarzenegger, love child, now being acknowledged for the first time at the age of 20.

It's like the girls, two, three, four, five, it's being written about. This is part of his narrative the entire time of The Rise. Everyone except for him is like, that is your daughter. It's obvious. We all see it. We all know Chris-Anne. Right. What are you talking about?

It's maybe the most devastating part of this movie is just... It's the heart of the movie. People greeting Chrisanne. Oh, when Andy is like, hi. Yeah. And he's like, we're friends separate from you. Right. You know.

Has anyone read Lisa Brennan Jobs' book, Small Fry? No. I'm sure no one has. I highly recommend it. It's a great book. And it's a book she wrote about her life and gives lots more context on Steve Jobs for job sets like me. When was that written?

Maybe, when did that get published? Like maybe 2017? Okay. So after this. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Sorkin does meet with Lisa and talks with her, which Walter Isaacson didn't even get to do.

So, who wrote the biography. So, you know, he clearly identifies on like, this is going to be the center of my movie. Right? Like, he calls her the hero of the movie. She is. Yeah. The movie doesn't work without that at all. Or else it's just wandering around.

I assume the Kutcher movie deals with it vaguely. The trailer doesn't. That's all I can tell you for sure. But like, The trailer doesn't touch it. But like, I want to see if the characters even credit it. that would hand wave that

simply because it's too complicated. And they're like, well, we have to explain, he's got to make an iPad now. A classic Hollywood, make some too unsympathetic. Yeah, right. Right. He's got to make an iPad now. A classic Hollywood makes him too unsympathetic. Yeah, right. Right.

That's unforgivable behavior. He talks to John Scully, a character Jeff Daniels plays, who Sorkin says has practically been in hiding since he got fired from Apple, but he talked to me. He talks to Joanna Hoffman, the character that Kate Winslet plays.

He talks to Steve Wozniak, of course, who is this lovely bear of a man, big, lovely man. But Sorkin says, like, you do get the sense from him. Like, he was still, you know, he nursed some anger, like, you know, over going all the way back, you know?

Lisa and Chrisanne are characters in that movie. I don't know to what degree. I think, you know, it has to. You have to in that movie i don't know to what degree you know it has to you have to touch on it yeah but i think they are much less because there has to be much more of him looking at a there's probably stuff about like pixar in that movie yeah yeah right it's got everything in it right yeah you know what if the the phone tomato computer try apple I just look it's not fair

and I don't even know if it's accurate but it is it is a a scathing tweet that has never left my mind when that movie

was coming out I just remember someone tweeting Ashton Kutcher Steve Jobs so an idiot playing a genius sounds good

I mean and that was like at the height of ashton kutcher's bozo phase yes when he was like the first celebrity on twitter yeah that was his whole thing and now he's just like a venture capitalist right like who is also in like who's like married to mila kunis married to mila kunis in that weird reese witherspoon rom-com oh god yeah that kind of came and went didn't it there's There's a bizarre Rolling Stone profile on Ashton Kutcher recently that talks about, like, it's been a while since you thought about Ashton Kutcher, huh? The screens.

We've been missing him actively. And I'm like, he didn't make a movie in three years. It was a pandemic. I haven't seen some of my best friends in three years. I just love the idea that Hollywood's like, what is it? What's the spark we're missing? They were treating it like he was Gene Hackman. And they were like, everyone's been waiting for him to return.

And he's returning. He used to be. Yeah, he's returning with a shitty Netflix movie. And returning? He's returning in a big way. Appearing in one episode of that 90s show and a Netflix movie that's going to be huge and definitely remembered for more than four hours. He was also on that Netflix show.

He had his own. The Ranch. The Ranch. That was like years. They were like, it's been so long. He did fucking 100 episodes of The Ranch. A show that survived

Danny Masterson getting canceled. They recast with Dax Shepard. Did another 45 episodes. They replaced him with Dax Shepard. He just popped Shepard in there? Yeah. They casted that show. How did that guy even walk through the doors of the ranch?

His arms are so swole. Do you know who the parents are on that show? I don't. Neither of you know who the parents are? I know nothing about the ranch. I refuse to engage with the ranch. So the ranch started, obviously, Kutcher Masterson became Kutcher and Dak Shepherd. Who are the two elder statesmen on that show?

In every fucking episode, 100 episodes of the ranch? I don't know. Multicam sitcom Sam Elliott Deborah Winger Deborah Winger Good for her for getting a check Getting that Netflix money

Get it while I can I can't do Sam Elliott right now even with my voice like this Sorkin also reveals he had talked to Steve Jobs three times in his life. One, Steve Jobs called him to say he liked a West Wing episode. Do you know which one? He did not reveal. I'd love to know.

Maybe one day. I have interviewed Aaron Sorkin, but I forgot to ask him which episode of the West Wing Steve Jobs liked. I bet it's the one where Josh starts chatting with people. Classic episode. Lemon Lime. Two, he asked him to come to pixar he wanted aaron sorkin to write a pixar script oh yes i do know that uh and three like for an animated movie i mean one would hope i mean i'd watch it sorkin come on yeah children children

shouldn't have to deal yeah that's true uh and three he was like i'm writing a commencement speech can you brush i mean steve jobs is probably just at that scale of celebrity at that point. Where he's like, I'll just call the most famous writers. Anyway, he's very satisfied with the script. He delivers the script. This is the whole thing with this movie. Was that everyone was kind of like, there's this great script. Right.

You know, like once the script was done, it was just kind of like, it's got to be me. And he got out of his system pretty quickly. It was not a tortured birth and people were like, this thing is good. It's a bold approach, but it reads. And then... Then trouble hits, quote unquote, in myriad forms. Well, the obvious thought is Fincher should be the number one choice to direct this movie. Fincher, as is his way every

time he comes onto a project basically reads the script and goes there is no way i could make this movie for a penny less than 80 million dollars 80 is cheap for whatever yeah no but that's the point right like even social network they were like this is a movie we have budgeted at 20 and he's like i can do it for 65 and they're like 65 and he's like well I can do it for 65. And they're like, 65? And he's like, well, because cobblestones cost this much at Harvard, I would shoot this in this way. To his credit, he's one of these guys where he apparently can go through word by word of the script

and explain every single cost to you. And he's like, I know how it works. I'm not gonna waste any money. I save money in certain ways, but I refuse to have things be shitty. I refuse to make compromises. This is how much it will cost to the penny. So he goes to them and is like, here's right and this is coming at a moment where there's a bit of a belt tightening

on auteurs in hollywood in general fincher who was coming off of a couple hits after a lifetime of having movies that like you mean button and social because he's made another movie since then that has disappointed right so then everyone's like well and then fucking dragon tattoo is going to be massive and it's going to be a franchise and it did okay it did okay a lot of money it is of course incredible it has one of the best trailers it also has one of the best endings of all time but at the moment it was perceived as most filmmakers probably would have agreed to make that movie for $50 million. You know, or something $60 million.

And he was like, there is no way to make this for less than $110 million or whatever. Well, let me give you some details. Now, this film's eventual budget was $30 million. Steve Jobs. I'm talking Dragon Tattoo. Oh, sure. I'm saying Dragon Tattoo was then seen as less successful because it had a Fincher-sized budget relative to expectations. So now they're like,

maybe we don't let Fincher do everything he wants. Well, there's some other stuff, though. Yeah. Two, one. There's Cleopatra. Exactly. Okay, so Fincher and Amy Pascal hate each other. Yes.

Because of all the money that's being spent on these Sony movies. But Pascal wants him working on Angelina Jolie's Cleopatra. Stop trying to make Cleopatra movies. Stop it! We're here 10 years later and we're still on this thing. Anytime an actress shows up who is hot and wears bronzer,

like, all studio heads can think of is like, should they be Cleopatra? It's like, stop it! This has never worked. The Gal Gadot Cleopatra movie is ostensibly this same project. It's the never stop it. This has never worked. The Gal Gadot Cleopatra movie is ostensibly this same project. It's the never-ending project. They've been trying to make it forever.

Stop trying to make it. Right. That's my advice. There's that incredible moment where James Cameron's like, maybe I'll make it. And it very clearly was him getting Fox to give him more money for the Avatar sequel. So he's like, well, maybe I won't get around to Avatar

for 25 years if I make Cleopatra first. Fincher made $5 million on the social network. Now, the reason we have all these numbers in greater detail is because of the Sony house. Thank you, Kim Jong-un. Thank you, North Korea. Yes. The People's Republic. Yes.

Fincher asked for $10 million for Steve Jobs. Now, he actually only asked for a 45 million dollar budget for this movie okay reasonable of course it is only it is basically set just in physical spaces that you just have to rent but that's still that's about as strapped down as he gets um but he's still asking for quite a lot of money for himself uh and uh the sony execs are like that's too much money rudin in an email says you don't think $40 million to shoot three scenes is enough? Do you want every control given to him, including the entire

marketing campaign? This is the director who refused to put the girl with the dragon tattoo in the ads for the girl with the dragon tattoo. I don't quite get that. I don't get that either. She's in the ads. What does that mean? I don't know what that means. He's such a fucking asshole. If you go and read those emails, he is the biggest asshole in and read those emails he is the

biggest asshole in the world he's really the worst nothing but like so rude to everyone all the time that amy pascal eventually has to send my favorite email that's ever been sent why are you punishing me just that one line said just got rude and why are the letter u punishing me sent from my Xperia Z2. Sent from my Sony Xperia Z2. Sheesh. Brand loyal. The thing with Rudin, of course, is he's produced so many great films. I mean, his name is on so many great films.

He's an EGOT winner. Because he would fucking attach himself like a goddamn barnacle to these really great artists, more so than Harvey. Because Harvey Weinstein, obviously, was part of good movies. Yeah. But he also made a lot of, like, middle-brow fucking trash and, like,

puffed it up. He was a studio head. Yes. The difference was, Rudin would wait for someone to make the breakthrough movie. The Coen brothers, whoever.

Right. Wes Anderson. And then would just be like, you're mine. And, of course, his reputation was that he would fight to the nail for them,

you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is the key. You don't know how many interns he'll scream at for you. Right, but like not to exonerate people who had relationships with him, but it was kind of that thing of like, if you're like a sensitive, exacting artist type who doesn't know how to navigate through this awful system of bureaucracy,

just close your eyes, look the other direction, focus on your little script scott rudin will figure out everything for you he will fight every fight he will mother fuck everyone right you cannot right and that was basically his thing is like a lot of these kind of like timid o'tore guys would just be like rudin just just whatever it takes whatever it takes was amy correct me if i'm wrong but amy pascal like came up through the rudin yes system too yes and now they system it sounds like something to make marines do it it should be like the fact that she's a woman who got out alive and became a major producer is kind of insane let's also just

say this time period amy pascal feels like we're talking late 2000s, early 2010s. Amy Pascal feels like the last old school studio head where there is a balance between like commercial projects, franchise projects, but also being like already Oscar stuff. We have to make real movies at big scale. We put real budgets behind real directors. And not only that, she's like nurturing new stars. There's that point where it's like Emma Stone, Andrew Garfield, Jesse Eisen only that she's like nurturing new stars there's that point where it's like emma stone andrew garfield jesse eisenberg there's like a bunch of young people who are not obvious yeah stars that she's like we're putting you in multiple projects we're thinking but you're right because it would be like you know whatever the other studios would be like what we have our our oscar branch right you know but like well we don't we don't make

those movies like the little guys make those movies. Amy Pastel is still like, we could do both. Amy Pastel. She's cool. I like her. She's cool. But she's like, social networks should also be able to play at malls. We can make these movies that split the difference. She wrote some embarrassing shit in those emails. Of course.

And got dragged for them. Yes. But she's a very interesting figure. But Fincher exited the project Okay Sorkin wanted him, he begged for him But his first choice was Bale and the studio I think Wanted DiCaprio more

Well they're always going to want DiCaprio the most But neither guy wanted to do it Bale was sort of more seriously considered And then was like I can't figure this guy out Yeah he kind of dropped But do you then was like, I can't figure this guy out. Yeah, he kind of dropped. But do you have the email where... I think Amy Pascal found out about this via a Hollywood reporter headline

that was like, David Fincher... It was like a news roundup that was like, David Fincher to leave Steve Jobs' Adam Driver cast as villain in Star Wars. And Amy Pascal sends him that headline and is like, what the fuck is going on? And David Fincher replies, yeah, that's crazy. Adam Driver's really wrong

for that role. He says, Adam Driver is a terrible idea. I'm with you. That's funny. And Amy Pascal replies in all caps, I meant the one about us punning heads and you're not directing jobs. He is so funny and I feel like people don't really understand. He's very mordant yeah exactly emails very yes very dry but also if you are

david fincher like do you want to do this again no the the challenge of just like is this you're you now have to compete with yourself even if this is a fairly different project from social network you're doing another difficult tech billionaire genius movie with Aaron Sorkin dialogue. He wisely does Gong Girl. Everyone's going to just judge you. Does he go to Mindhunter after this? No, it's Gong Girl. Oh, I forgot about my

favorite movie, Gong Girl. You forgot about another one of the great films. He goes to Fox and is like, I guess my thing is take the best-selling air, put paperback. Not to toot my own dick. Toot your own dick, David. No, but I mean, just like when I interviewed him, I said like, you know, come on, you were making these original movies. He's like, every time I had to get a bestseller.

Yeah. And that would be the way I could get it over the line. Which it's so weird that it just stops with Gone Girl. I know. And that one's. You should have just gotten another bestseller. Yeah. But he gave us Mank.

And for that, I salute him. And for that, I say thank you very much. And for that, he has The Killer. He sure does. Starring Michael Fassbender. Yeah. Yes. Based on an idea by Wendy Williams.

The Wendy Williams? It's not based... But have you never seen Wendy Williams talking about The Killer? Oh, sure. The Killer! Yeah. So, Fincher exits.

Okay, so what's Danny Boyle up to? Well, he made a little thing called Trance. Uh-oh. He directed a pilot for the British TV show Babylon, which is fairly popular. So, you know, he's sort of messing around in Britain. I think he had some good times with that. Then he's thinking about a...

Olympics. This sounds like a Ben... We talked about that on the trans episode. This sounds like a Ben-friendly project. It's called Smash and Grab the Story of the Pink Panthers, an adaptation of a Diamond Thief documentary. Wow. Come on.

British Diamond Thieves called the Pink Panthers? Yeah. Also rumors that Warner Brothers wanted him for American Sniper. Weird. Yeah. I'm not sure what that looks like. Bizarre.

Yeah. But that speaks to him just being in this like Oscar friendly director pot where people aren't even thinking about appropriateness. They're just like, well, this guy's done a bunch of different genres and he's won an Oscar. I guess any big prestige project you could maybe throw him into consideration. an Oscar, I guess any big prestige project you could maybe throw him into consideration. I also think that something specific about Boyle in almost kind of like an Ang Lee kind of way is that you can give him

whatever and he can make a good movie. His American Sniper would be weird, but it would probably be good. It would probably be less insane than the American Sniper we have. They used his baby from train scout

that was the one thing they they did with zero upkeep right it had rotted like that yeah oh here it is yeah it's like looks fine put it in his hands bounce the head that's one of the funniest things that has ever happened baby yeah like what if we could hear clint directing like if we could just hear that audio rock it good put it down i don't know anyway what i would like to hear is bradley cooper being like clint i would love one more take i just i'm still trying to sync up my performance i didn't even know how much it was gonna weigh i would love to just know the conversation where Clint was like, are you using a fake baby? Like, Bradley

seems like the kind of guy who'd be like, please, give me a living baby. I have heard the conversation. I just looked on the monitor. It looks fine. We're going. I believe it was a thing where the baby was running late. I think the true answer.

And Clint had his eye on this turkey sandwich over at craft services. He really wanted it. I truly think it was a thing where the baby was running late or the baby was sick. The baby got stuck in traffic. They had booked a baby

and it was one of these things where like, right, like an AD came up to him and was like, Clint, we have eyes on another baby. It would take two hours to get here.

And he's like, give me the doll. Right, it was that. It was truly like, I have no interest in interest in waiting well give me the boil doll all right you have to imagine bradley cooper was like if you give me six takes i can figure this out and clint was like that's not how it works takes i will learn the angles i will learn how to probably maybe even did but he just didn't even roll film no he'd already walked away He was eating that turkey There's a novel called

Ingenious Pain That Danny Boyle's also thinking about The story of a mid-18th century man Who can feel neither pain nor pleasure That's a real Danny Boyle Danny Boyle Had taken this book to Ewan McGregor As the first olive branch in the healing of their relationship, which will soon be further healed with his next project.

So they're sort of thinking about that, but they could never figure it out. He also wanted to make a David Bowie movie. And he had worked on a script on that with Frank Cottrell Boyce, who wrote Millions. Sure. But they couldn't get the music rights, and they kind of gave up on it. I would love to see a David Bowie movie. That movie would be cool. But if you can't get the music rights, there's no problem.

Well, there was the weird Marc Maron, Johnny Flynn, David Bowie movie that came out a couple years ago where they also couldn't get the music rights. Which is like, everyone just sort of agreed never to speak for that one character names it was like well then we're not acknowledging this right i mean just go watch velvet goldmine if you want the vibe like you know anyway um then the script ends up at his door now rudin had worked with boyle on the uh the stage play frankenstein oh interesting okay uh which was a big hit so he does know him that's the

connection and he reads this script and is very impressed with it. Yeah. Unsurprisingly. And here's Boyle. Rudin probably thought, oh, he won't want to step into Fincher's shoes. But I read it and that was it. I said, I'm in. And he said, are you serious?

I could hear it in his voice, him thinking, it can't be this easy, can it? And I was like, I'm as serious as I can get. A very sensitive read from a strep throat david simms uh no i think there are few directors at that level who would have such a severe lack of ego it really speaks to boyle not really caring about the industry game at all my guess is right they threw it at a lot of a-listers and they were like fincher turned it down i don't want to do it right that seems That seems to be Boyle's whole thing, too, is being kind of like, I don't live in L.A.

Like, I'm kind of removed from the bullshit. Like, I am basically Irish, have this, like, workman-like thing where I'll just, whatever. Like, there's no ego involved. But also, if you're basically at a point where over the course of, like, five years, these types of projects and studios have gone from, like like $60 million budgets to $30 million budgets. And the thing they've been fighting is how to keep this thing down when you're already paying so much for Sorkin, for the rights, yada, yada, yada. Boyle is a guy who you know is always going to be able to make a movie for less money than anyone else would.

Like he's able to at a very high level somehow get maximum value out of whatever dollar you give him. Now, this film is two hours long. Yes. The script is 185 pages. In classic Aaron Sorkin style, it essentially has instructions being like, read fast. Yeah. Read fast. You gotta talk fast.

The other thing I'll say, like, I read the social network strip when that was going around, like every other dumb 20-something male white actor who was trying to get any part in that thing. Sure. The thing about his scripts being long, aside from the fact that you're being told to perform fast, is also with Sorkin, you, like, look at a page of dialogue, and a lot of it is sentence fragments. Right. So it, like, takes a line line but it's like well come on you know and i'm telling you no i know what you're saying but yeah well so it just does he do it like

he has the exact or does he put them next to each other my memory is that it's more straight line down rather than the sort of parallel dialogue lateral kind of thing yeah that's so interesting i think that's also kind of a theater-y thing where like he is you something you cannot forget about aaron sorkin is that he wanted to be an actor until he was like 20 basically yes and he is a theater kid through and through yes which is why he loves talky talky talky and he loves like all i feel like a lot of his shit is structured well and also huge thing about him i mean part of his whole like mythology he writes a few good men on napkins

while working as a bartender at a broadway theater it gets in the hands of the right person who's like we could fucking sell this to studios as a movie and his contract is i will not sell the rights as a movie until it gets staged on Broadway first. He was like so dorkily obsessed with the idea of being a playwright and not a screenwriter that he was like contractually Sony basically has to pay to put this on Broadway for six months before I'll let Rob Reiner make it as a film. So when I interviewed him. Yes.

I interviewed him for To Kill a Mockingbird. And the angle was that Ed Harris was stepping into the role Of Atticus Finch Did you do like sort of any Warm up exercises to make sure That your legs didn't get like worn out From the interview It's good to do stretches

Do you guys have to like go upstairs It is so great when he's on 30 Rock And they do the walk and talk And I was very scared to do this interview because one I kind of admire Aaron Sorkin and I didn't want to think

I was an idiot and two I'm very scared of Ed Harris I admire him too but he seems scary he seems really scary number one scariest man but I'm interviewing them

at the theater together? together that would scare the crap out of me but it's it's really lovely to be in a Broadway theater when no one's there

and uh Ed Harris was late and so Aaron and I are just literally like at the theater it's one lovely to be in a Broadway theater when no one's there. And Ed Harris was late. And so Aaron and I are just literally like at the theater. It's one of the biggest theaters in Broadway. I forget what his name is. My brother's mad at me right now. And we're walking and the stage is all set up for Kill a Mockingbird. And he's like, take a look at this.

And he like brings me over to the stage. And the step, because people come in through you know the aisles who good right today great uh you know and step onto the stage in that production and the step for people to get is it half your foot doesn't even fit on it interesting and he's like look at this like it's amazing people don't break their legs and we just like you know both of us are like taking steps up and down and his like weird childish joy about yeah the stage and like then we're walking around on the stage you know like it was just kind of obvious like oh yeah this is still just like number one for him he loves he loves it it's kind of i mean because he's like fucking rich and famous now like what does he need to be i guess he has been busy for a long time but it has always kind

of surprised me that he doesn't do more theater. I guess he has Camelot coming this season. But now he's got Camelot. I think he's kind of back in on the Broadway baby. And then Ed Harris showed up and he was scary. But he was nice. Or polite. Yeah.

Yeah. He didn't yell at me. No, but he had some terse words for Maverick. Oh, boy. Anyway. maverick oh boy um anyway this is incredible when he shows up in that movie looking like a pile of sand just yelling at tom cruise yelling he he's like growling simmering yeah he's like oh god he's so good there's like electricity coming out of his mouth. He's so cool in that movie. Yeah. All right. So, Bale. Yes. DiCaprio.

Yeah. Some other names they tossed around. Damon, Bradley Cooper, Ben Affleck. Didn't someone really want Tom Cruise to do it? Yes. Tom Cruise is on. I don't really understand how things like that get out. He would be really weird.

He would be really weird. He's too small. Yeah. He's like not i don't understand there's the single-minded intensity they're like huh you're a freak right charismatic i will say though that like it would be so distracting to watch a movie about a father and daughter that stars tom cruise didn't even consider that like it would just be it would be all over anything anyone i'm also certain that was

that is a box he would have refused to open there's no way he would interrogate that stuff and if he did maybe the movie would be brilliant masterpiece but but i don't think no he wouldn't would be willing to do that yeah the craziest thing of course is after all this fucking bullshit and boyle is on board and fastbender is finally the choice. They're still arguing over the budget. And so Amy Pascal puts the project in turnaround and Universal immediately nabs it. Right. Which like obviously she was like trying to, you know,

it was clearly part of her budget game was putting it in turnaround. It seems like a weird mistake. But it was also this question. Because it was still a hot project. was this question of is fast bender a movie star right like end of the 2000s because he'd done the x-men yeah hardy and fast bender were the two guys in the industry at the end of the 2000s were like or is this the next wave are these the guys you know when does shame come out shame is 11 yeah shame is 11 and that was he was not nominated for that film but he was close but he was like around and he was kind of yeah he was talking about his big old hammer big old hammer but he had like he was doing x-men and he had all of these like he had the steve

mcqueen the like early mcqueen movies and like he was really about to be a guy. And then after this movie, everything kind of gets weird. And then he goes dark and becomes a race car driver. Well, he joined the Creed, obviously, as well. Oh, yeah. You can't forget about the Creed.

Assassin's Creed. Oh. Is he in that movie? Yeah. Is he in that movie? Oh, my God. Sorry. It's Ben's favorite film.

But the, did you see that it it circulated to justin kersl director of assassin's creed that he has now listened to the episode i did see that uh salute you justin kersl knows that ben is his number one fan um there's this come on the show justin yes open invitation there's this terry gilliam quote that circulates a lot with him talking about probably one of his 18 000 attempts to get Don Quixote off the ground in the late 2000s. And he's like, every company I meet with, they say you need a hard bender. And they're like, they want that tier of guy like Michael Fassbender or Tom Hardy where everyone thinks they're hard bender.

That sounds sexy. It does. But it's stuck in my mind forever. But it's like that thing of these guys are still cheap because they're not actually movie stars yet. But everyone in the industry agrees they are incredibly handsome, charismatic, talented. It's going to happen. And Fassbender's on this parallel track where he's doing his prestige projects and he's doing his blockbusters. And you're like, okay, so he's been Magneto.

He almost got an Oscar nomination. It's, you know. And then he did eventually get one for 12 years a slave but in the moment that they're casting him in this right sure he probably they're sort of like i think the debate is is he one film away from it finally happening is this the movie is this the movie are you gonna get him right at the right time or is the is everything that's happened over the last five years evidence that he's never going to quite be a list that he's maybe stuck at a tier right below and so yeah there's a lot of hand-wringing in the budget of like even for 35 million dollars can you do it with him do people

like this guy yeah for a character that is inherently unlikable does it help to have a movie star that people already kind of know and feel comfortable with and i think the what they boil down to in the email amy pascal is any boy danny boiled hashtag boil down uh amy pascal is like it doesn't matter people will see this movie with fast bender because he's enough of a name yeah and you have danny boyle and you have aaron sorkin and you have one of the most famous men in the entire world as a subject and then we get our beautiful movie we get our beautiful movie of We get our beautiful movie. Of course, she was wrong. People didn't really want to see it.

But I don't care. Yeah. But yes. There is a very prescient email in the Sony leaks where a guy is telling Amy Pascal, like the marketing guy or whatever, he's like, as it is stands now, this movie is probably going to make like mid-30s.

And he was exactly spot on. He was dead right right and it was well we'll get to all of this but the other thing to say is that the the astrid kutcher project like rushed they were sort of like yeah we have to be there first we can't be good but we can be first we can be first and i think they thought it was going to be like a photo finish bugs life ants thing and said they come out two full years earlier yes that movie flops even harder it makes no impression but it does fuck this movie over a little bit where their confidence was like well everyone's waiting for the real one and even though no one saw the fake one by the time this

came out they were like another one of these there was a little bit of that yeah uh that's for sure and i do think there was a little bit of like michael fast bender is not a draw yeah it's just sort of over and over again the same with no offense to the creed but same with the sorry same with assassin's creed same with like anything where it's like all fast bender on the poster thing it's like after this he's like fuck it i have to do it i have to do my franchise that is just me. That's not X-Men. That's not me taking over a role. I have to do my thing.

And he does that. After finally getting his Oscar nom, or second Oscar nom, that movie bombs. And then he kind of disappears and goes into a fucking race car for five years. Excuse me. He didn't disappear. He gave us all the clues. And then he decided. Well, that's truly that have you guys

watched that movie no um i mean yes in that i put it on and the the visuals went into my eyes that movie played in front of you right that movie is like one of it feels like you are on some kind of drug that makes like your audio processing right like systems stop working you're like none of this is so ready for that movie the movie's like there's a murderer in the ice perfect great michael fassbender's on the case i'm like fantastic his name's harry hole it's actually like harry hole or whatever i'm still with it i'm like cool yeah the murderer is called the snowman great yeah he does snowman crimes Huh How many clues did he leave you

All of them I love it But then yeah it's one of those movies where Scenes seem to be missing And then the director is kind of like Yeah I didn't get to all the scenes We needed like 10 more days Anyway And then he goes off and now he like lives in Lisbon with Alicia Vikander

And they have a baby They sure do. They're a hot couple. His last credit was? X-Men Dark Phoenix. Correct. And his next, this year he's in two films. Yeah.

Killer and Next Call Wins. But this is, that's five year gap? Four years. Okay. No, this definitely felt like the movie that was the real test. You know, is this the breakthrough moments um obviously i think this performance is tremendous i think it's very very good i don't really know who would be better uh there's it's not a movie that it all screams to

me like oh it just needed x i'm he's he's perfect to me yes bale is not an actor i love so i love bale as an actor i so i think i get excited about the idea of him doing this but bale is one of my guys it's the way you talk about daniel day lewis where you're like oh it's like boring to say you like daniel day lewis i'm like i particularly like bale a lot i like bale he's just a lot of david or russell movies yeah well that's right i think bale would have like... He's just in a lot of David O. Russell movies. Yeah, that's true. I think Bale would have like... And a lot of Adam McKay movies. Done a lot of... Done a little too much.

He would have like hit it a little too hard. Quite possibly. Which is like a thing that's good when you're... That's what you're looking for when you're making like a David O. Russell movie. It's the same with Joaquin. Yeah, exactly. Oh, right. How much ham?

How much cheese? Well, this is one of these conflicted elements of this movie, right? I've been jobs-pilled. I'm here. I'm on the boat with you. Right. Okay? Right.

But we've, like, jobs-OD'd. We're, like, drowning in our own vomit. Sure. I'm taking a couple. Right. I'm still following instructions on the bottle. You're having a good time, and David and I are like, out. I'm not trying to exceed more than eight in a 24-hour period.

That's right. I'm monitoring how much alcohol I drink while I'm on jobs. Very good. Very good. Right. Try not to do hard liquor beer and wine um but i i do think it's an interesting question just in terms of certainly this movie's reputation at the time it came out i do think that was another thing that was going against it where you're like okay so the guy playing steve jobs is that guy i kind of know and then he really doesn't look like him and to the credit of the movie and a fast bender fast bender i think wisely like tries to approach this as a character more than needing to impersonate this guy or invoke him yeah but i do think for a lot of people

with a movie like this they want to see the poster where they go like holy shit can you believe this fucking side by side that's why they put put him in the black turtleneck on the poster. Towards the end, I will say in the last act, I'm kind of like, I get it, I see it. He gets the pitch of the voice. And he gets the glasses on and I see it more. When they're in the garage,

he looks so hot that it is distracting. And then also in the first part when he takes off his shirt and he's in the t-shirt and you're like oh he's got the sax man he's got jacked and he looks like so crazy hot that it's kind of like it does up a little bit it takes you out of it steve jobs was handsome but like but he was never built but he was a trim guy who paid more attention to how he dressed in a sea of yes schlubs with big glasses and Star Wars shirts and all that. Yeah. But I do

think, yeah, the decision of, like, let's just get a good actor who will give a good performance for this confused a lot of the public. And that's always what Sorkin wanted to. Every time he does an interview about this movie he says it's a painting, not a photograph. Like, I just want this to be, like, impressionistic.

It's not the real thing. I don't care about it being the real thing. No, I mean, a few movies have ever cared less about realism in their own way than this film. And I think, actually, that is a much more interesting way to approach biopic or, like, a real story than, like, you know, cradle to grave. Because it's like, I don't actually care what happened with this person's life i care about what you have to say about what this person's life like tells you about something else i agree a hundred percent now i think we should start digging into the movie in our but can i which is what like an hour 15 in this is all really this is so important we've

all been on it's a context heavy film yes yes now can I say the other line that bumps for me in this movie? The only other isolated line where I just go, Aaron, you're pushing it. Yeah, but I might just shoot you with a revolver. I wonder if it's the same one that I bump up against. What's yours? Mine is when he asks Kate Winslet why they've never had sex. I love that line.

I hate that line. He's an asshole. I know, but it's never... He's like a sexless being, other than being played by Michael Fassbender. It doesn't make any sense why he would be like why we never slept together i think unless he's written by aaron sorkin well well that's true yeah i mean and he is half sorkin but um i i i that feels like

something he said to her like 10 times because she has the response where she's just like because we're not in love she's not even looking at it because what i like about them is that they have this like crazy chemistry. There's like electric chemistry that never really feels sexual. They're just like two people who like love each other in this weird fucked up way. That's how I mean, I agree with that completely. I just think that's his relationship with everyone in this movie in a different way. Yes.

Except for maybe Stuhlbarg. But even Stuhlbarg he kind of respects he says he says stolbark says i never liked you and he said that's a shame i always liked you what's your bumpy i on this second viewing fully accept the sort of uh uh dramatic conceit of this film okay it's about steve. But the, you know, all these conversations are going to be coming up constantly at the moment right before these three, you know, picking up

basically right where they left off. All of that. I think the moment he calls it out. Oh, you don't like that? I love that. It just feels a little too, like, I'll let you get away with it until the moment where you lampshade it and have the characters acknowledge the reality. He's a little tossed off, Joe.

How come every time I'm about to launch a product, everyone I know goes to a bar and then decides to unload on me or whatever he says? I think it's fun. I think it's a fun line. I just think he's pushing it a little bit, Aaron. That's what Aaron does. I know he does. Pushes and he pushes. And he does a great job pushing.

You're always with him. And you're always with him. Oh, no, Chicago 7. That's the thing is that Aaron Durkin pushes and pushes and pushes, which is why he's a bad writer-director. He needs a director or else he'll push himself off of a fucking cliff. He needs to push and pull. I agree with that. Except I do love Molly's Game.

Okay, Molly's Game is the one where I'm like, this is cool and good. Because it also doesn't look like shit it's like being the ricardos and especially chicago seven chicago seven is one of the worst looking movies chicago seven looks like garbage yeah it's so everyone's hair looks crazy i i forgot about being the ricardo yeah yeah wow yeah forgot about that. A movie he wrote and directed. Three acting nominations, David. Who's the third? J.K. Simmons?

Yeah. J.K. Oh my God. J.K. Simmons has two Oscar nominations. Oh, I think you should have more. Whiplash? Yeah, Whiplash. He won for that.

What was the other one? Juno, probably? Yeah, well, yeah, come on. He's been in a lot of good movies. Patriots. Yeah, you just keep going. And then like the sun sets and you're like, I don't fucking know uh come on just tell me what what was it being the ricardo's he's not in that yes he is he's in it um absurd uh no molly's game is like

i i think like 30 amateurishly directed 70% just workmanlike get out of the way serve the script great performances it's got some it's got a couple ideas visually

you know it's got some no it's got some and then you're like oh I think he's gonna refine it he's gonna become a really good and then the next movie immediately

it's all bad habits take over he's never coming out of this but jeez Trial of the Chicago 7 is fucking remember when jeremy strong said remember when jeremy strong said he asked aaron sorkin to spray him in the face with

real tear gas yeah those two together in a room i know i can't remember and when jeremy strong got profiled in the new yorker jessica chastain had to share like a typewritten letter from yes she did god everyone god remember when there was a profile of okay what am i what am i what my hottest takes is that i think jeremy strong is good in chicago seven and sasha baron cohen is disastrous sasha baron cohen also also it's just like the politics of that movie are so awful. Oh, horrendous. And it totally works who Abby Hoffman was. Yeah, no, it's a weird. But that's the thing with Sorkin is he's like, who are these guys?

Yeah. I don't get it. Who are these guys? Okay, I guess I'll read this book. Like, he doesn't care about stuff like that. No. And so, yeah, so he'll just do a thing where you're like, well, Abby Hoffman didn't behave this way. You know, whatever. Sorkin's politics are like It's Morning in Americaica the ad but not reagan yeah like he likes the idea

right like the folgers coffee commercial he's like people people can do good if they try hard enough right it's like well okay right it's totally sort of like just an abstract notion of integrity and honesty yeah i don't know yeah i yeah, I can't get into his politics right now. That's like a further pretzel to unknot. But, okay, Steve Jobs. Yes. Has three acts. The first was filmed in 16mm,

the second in 35mm, and the third in digital. I don't know if you knew that. And, you know, in between them, they, like, unspool or the real ends. That's really cool. So cool. Obviously, the score,

the perfect score by Daniel Pemberton, which I listen to all the time. What's up? Why do they do that? Because time is passing. Oh. To sort of represent the shift technology in the three eras.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. It's very, if you watch this movie over and over again, really, you really see it. I think it's incredibly effective. It's so cool.

And it's a thing like that that is, it's not a showy, look at my concept thing. I think it does affect the feeling of it's a thing like that that is, it's not a showy look at my concept thing. I think it does affect the feeling of the three acts. Because the score changes every time as well. The composer used very, very different music styles for each act. Aesthetically, everything feels different. Obviously, the setting is very different every time.

It's like three short films. Yes. And the main character is steve jobs played by michael fassbender and he's always with his trusty publicity head joanna hoffman played by kate winslet played brilliantly by kate oscar nominated performance snub for the win maybe golden globe rachel mcadam winner who wins this year? Vikander. It's one of those ones where you're like, oh, the worst. And Eddie Redmayne won Best Actor.

No, he did not. No, because he won the year before. Oh. He was nominated for the Danish girl. This year, then. For Jan Danish girl. Oh, fuck. This is the Leo year.

This is the Revenant. This is the Leo year. I mean, I've said this so many times. If Vikander had won for Ex Machina instead, I think that would be better. But listen to these five nominees. I feel like we just did this. Yeah. I think you and I just did this.

You and I just did this after we saw Scream. Humble right. Why were we talking about this here? Because I think we were talking about this movie. Well, it's also just so weird because that year felt like everyone being like, Vikander's the new person. We're going to anoint her. And then she also kind of disappears for five years.

They go off to live in Portugal. I like Alicia Vikander. I do too. I support her. I do too. But it felt like this was like... I'm kind of meh on her. I've never been wowed.

I don't really like her in The Danish Girl, the film she won best picture. She won best picture. They gave her best picture. Jennifer Jason Leigh in Hateful Eight Which is kind of a career But you know I like that performance But yes kind of a career Rooney Mara and Carol obvious sort of egregious Category fraud

But obviously a good performance But she's not winning because of the category I agree Rachel McAdams in Spotlight My winner Just an amazing performer. We all agree. Lovely. Incredible. And then in her ill-fitting khakis. Rinslet in Jobs

who was probably never going to win because she had recently won an Oscar, but won the Globe and the BAFTA. Right, so it kind of felt like oh fuck. It kind of felt like maybe we'll just give it to her. And it felt, Vikander it was one of those things where they were like, are they running her in lead for Danish Girl and then supporting

for Ex Machina? Which one's she gonna get nominated for? And then, yeah, she wins for the shitty movie that no one likes in a completely

forgotten performance. Best actor is almost more egregious to me because... Because Leo wins. Because Leo wins for The Revenant. Okay, let's just play out

an alternate history to this. Michael Fassbender. Michael Fassbender wins for Steve Jobs. We love wins for The Revenant. Okay, let's just play out an alternate history to this. Michael Fassbender. Michael Fassbender wins for Steve Jobs. We love that. That's great. Leo doesn't win. Leo does win for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, meaning that Joaquin does not win for Joker.

How do we all feel about that version of the game? Great. Sounds good. Incredible. Incredible performance by him. The Revenant is just like, that's the one. There's also the version where they just give it to him for fucking

Wolf of Wall Street like they should have it should have been the performance before or after Revenant exactly yeah but he had to lose to McConaughey that year

boo this is the whole thing it's like right and I said give it to McConaughey for Ender's Don't Worry exactly no but this is

they were like no you don't understand this McConaughey performance will stand the test of time I could be like hi I'm here from 10 years later. It doesn't. No one talks about that performance. We actually have kind of turned on that movie.

Yeah, no one kind of doesn't want to talk about that movie, honestly. But even like the ripple effect of like giving, I feel like I've said this one so many times, but Jeff Bridges, the He's Overdue Crazy Heart Award. Right, and then it's like True Grit rolls in one year later. And that year they have to give it to Colin Firth when when colin firth had given the better performance in the bridges year and you're like you could just swap them here's the thing is that when you look at what the oscars do like if you just look at a sheet that's like the best actor from every year like the best

picture from every year it's like damn they fuck it up so much they do i do every time i do feel like sometimes if you step back and you sort of squint like a magic eye painting, you're like, by and large, a lot of the time... It all works out. The right people get their awards and sometimes they got two later, they got two early, but then of course corrected or whatever. And some people just get snubbed and some people have

awards that never should have gotten them. But you're like, Joaquin should have one, Leo should have one. It does divide out. Maybe Fassbender will get one next year. Next goal wins. Leo should have one. It does divide out. Maybe Fassbender will get one next year. Next goal wins. The killer. Yeah.

The killer. The killer. What if there was a killer? So Kate Winslet is always there with her Polish accent sometimes. Seth Rogen is always there playing Steve Wozniak. Okay. Co-founder of Apple. Can I say it?

And you guys, I think my boomy out of the room I think this is the best performance in the movie Well that's crazy but it's a great performance I won't bump up against that We love the performance I think he's unbelievable Back to Oscar talk, in a perfect world They are showing the scene in the orchestra pit

Yes I feel like He had some Oscar buzz And then this movie's Oscar buzz just kind of died Showing the scene in the orchestra pit. Yes. When. Yes. I feel like. If Seth Rogen got nominated. There he had some Oscar buzz and then this movie's Oscar buzz just kind of died. It went away. Because it's like he's not. Winslet is beloved enough. A favorite.

Fassbender sort of scene is overdue because of the shame snub. The comedian going serious is not going to get over the hump for a movie that flopped. It's his first. It's his first. It's really him doing his first dramatic role. But I feel like it was a very similar thing with Patton Oswalt in Young Adult, where the second that movie bombed, it was like, it's not happening. They had been flirting with it.

If you're a funny guy, the movie needs to have so much groundswell behind it to overcome. Don't talk to me like I'm other people. No, he's amazing in the movie. The fucking, the orchestra scene, his breathing pattern in it yeah well he breathed good he breathed really he's doing like gandolfini breathe come on the legend i think he's phenomenal in this we all agree yeah rogan amazing in this movie maybe ben

doesn't agree oh i agree yeah okay yeah it's his best acting performance period. So, in all three. In all three, Jeff Daniels is always there. John Scully, who was CEO of Apple for ten years. In the first two, but not the third, Kath and Waddesdon is there as Chrisanne Brennan. Sure. Steve Jobs' former girlfriend.

In all three, Michael Stolberg is there as Andy Hertzfeld. Who actually, you guys might not know This is one of the little trolls from Frozen I was going to say He actually is a rock And then he spins and he goes A bit of a fixer-upper

It's one of the great shames Of this movie's failure for me That I cannot buy a line of Collectible plushes of Michael Stolberg In his various looks. In his three costumes. I don't know if his look changes that much. When his little bangs are like white.

His white bangs are little bangs. Oh, it's so cute. He's adorable in this. He really is. In every scene, in every act, Lisa Brennan-Jobs is there, played by three different actors, obviously. The last actor who plays her as a teen

is Perla Haney-Jardine. His baby is in Kill Bill Vol. 2. She's also the Sandman's daughter in Spider-Man 3. There you go. Not Adam Sandler's daughter, to be clear. She's really good. All the Lisas are pretty good. Middle Lisa breaks my heart every time.

I mean, all three Lisas break my heart. I think she kind of brings the heat in the last bit. Is Sarah Snook in all three or is she only in one in three? I was going to say, kind of brings the heat in the last bit. She's true. Is Sarah Snook in all three or is she only in one in three? I was going to say, Sarah Snook is only in one in three. She does not appear in the second act. She does not go over to next. But she is playing a real person, Andy Cunningham, who is actually really happy with her portrayal in this film. Yeah, you know what?

Why wouldn't you be? I would be thrilled if Sarah Snook played me. Yes. And also, if in the movie, Steve Jobs is like you did a good job i have no notes you did exactly what i wanted fulfilled arc um and also secretly in every uh act john ortiz yes joel uh forzheimer quietly gq journalist he's actually profiling him every time yes uh that's it but like kind of a good running bit that jobs keeps forgetting or not noticing that this guy is shadowing him and following him um correct and uh there's this

running joke that there are two andes and it's only by the third act that kate winslow points out like yeah you know the other andy is a girl named andrea that's sarah snook's character like you could just call her andrea but he's like i know who i'm talking about that's the thing he says i know to call her Andrea. The problem is, right, it's a perfect Steve Jobs logic puzzle thing of like, but there's the error in communication here that I can't defeat.

Yeah. But in every act, it's basically like he's running around and all of these people want some of his time in some form. Everyone wants just a minute to talk to him. Exactly. And he's in the three acts

and this is the most brilliant choice by Sorkin are the launch of the Macintosh, the launch of the Next, which is the cleverest choice, and the launch of the iMac. He doesn't get into the iPod or the iPad or the iTunes. But he does get to a notion of putting a thousand songs in one's pocket.

Interesting. He also tells Jeff Daniels that the reason the Howard doesn't work is because you've got styluses on your fingers. The Newton. The Newton. I love Howard. I don't know. I guess they're kind of the same name. James Newton Howard?

Yeah, probably. They should have called it the Howard. They should have called it the James Newton Howard. Isn't it disgusting that we can figure out how the other is? Like we all are infected with the same stupid movie brain rot oh gosh um but that's sort of a reference to the ipad yeah or the iphone he's like he's like he can immediately laser in say the reason your shit didn't work is because you had a stylus when you already have styluses on your finger the things we could have done. I think that is arguably the best single moment distillation of what Steve Jobs' talent was in the movie. But here you go.

That's part of what this movie is about. I agree. Is everyone being like, why are you famous? What's your thing? What do you do? What is this? And that's the way he describes himself but like i feel like it's trying to reckon with why is this man so consequential right when he doesn't actually

do anything except sort of yell at people and have ideas yeah think big picture and then like kind of bully and cajole and frighten others into achieving what he wants and even when what he wants seems illogical and And even more fascinatingly, that he basically had that reputation for the first 20 years of nearly complete failure. Right. Like he was fucking tripping over and over and over again. Everyone's like, but obviously the guy's a genius.

You know, and we have these figures today and some of them have seemed to conclusively prove themselves to be morons you know and then i couldn't think of one in particular uh but yes no to basically end the movie with the first time he's going to have like a complete success and completely kind of prove his whole philosophy it is cool that they picked two that sorkin picks like flops to start the movie. I think it's really clever of him to not end with the iPhone, I guess. And also the fact that Jobs is so averse to acknowledging what is actually making Apple money.

Let's all acknowledge the Apple II. Let's acknowledge the Apple II team. Let us take some time to acknowledge the Apple II team. Let's put some respect on the name of the Apple II team. Why did anyone in this room ever own an Apple II? Just the's put some respect on the name of the Apple II team. Why did I? Did anyone in this room ever own an Apple II? Just the top guys. What?

David, just the top guys. No. I remember them in school. Because you might have. Yes, they were a classic school thing. Oh, sorry. You heard Olivia, and I'm not saying this to shame you, too young to have ever even seen an Apple II. I had to. Okay, so here's my thing with this movie is that I actually don't give a shit about tech or Steve Jobs or anything.

I think a lot of people who love this movie feel the same way as me. It's just an incredible movie. So I had to like look up like what is the Apple II? Or like what does it mean if they're like running like a 560 computer on a 120? I'm like, I don't understand what any of that means. I'm just along for the ride. Yeah, like the Macintosh 512 had 512 kilobytes of RAM, aka my phone

for like one millisecond of whatever it does now. Right. It's the like reserve that keeps your place in the game when you're on standby mode. It's what plays

like the worst ad when you're jerking off to something like in the corner. And fellas, don't you hate it when... I was just trying to think of the jankiest thing online. Okay. So, should we just start with the first act? You know what truly is equivalent to?

I don't. The tiny bit of energy memory that keeps the time when your phone is off or whatever. Sure. You know? Just like tick-tock, tick-tock. Right. Anyway, go on. But I do want to say because you pointed to me... You didn't have an Apple II, but did you have a Macintosh I looked up

what was the first because I grew up Olivia in an Apple household right I knew this about you your dad's a graphic designer and it was

like whenever I was a kid the only kids who had Macs were the kids whose parents worked in arts man of science I had a neighbor whose like mom was

like a graphic designer that was the only people who owned Macs Mac desktop and I was like that's so cool we had a neighbor whose mom was a graphic designer. That was the only people who owned Macs. They had the Mac desktop. And I was like, that's so cool. We had a Gateway 2000. There you go. Moo.

Moo. I mean, it sucked at the time. But did you have a Macintosh? Well, so I had a Macintosh Performa, which was specifically the 578 that came out in 1994. That was my first computer. Wow. So you were also early computer household.

Yep. Yeah, I don't think we had a computer in the home until 98. Did that have the internet? It did. Hell yeah. Yep. It had not American online yet. It must have had like...

CompuServe probably. Yeah. I was going to say Netscape maybe, but maybe CompuServe. Well, Netscape is a browser. CompuServe is probably your like, yeah. Yeah. I was going to say Netscape, maybe. There's a browser. CompuServe is probably your, like, yeah. Okay. But the thing that sucked is that it had no games. Right.

All the games were on PC. So I immediately was just kind of like, oh, what? I'm going to learn with this? I felt like you could get, like, some of the Sim cities. Sure. There was so much more. You weren't buying Disney Interactive CD-ROMs for Mac. Kids weren't like running to your house to play on your Macintosh.

I didn't have to get permission from my parents to buy any of the games that were available on Apple computers. Yeah, I mean, we were. Right, right. They were all family friendly. We were like a little later. Their skulls were exploding. Math munchers. That were my options.

You couldn't get Quake or whatever. No. We were like a little later getting a computer in the household, and so I would be so attracted to any kid I knew who had a computer at their place. I'd be like, oh, yeah, I played it with that kid. Play on the computer, play some games, go online, you know?

Or like, Dad, I really want to come over to your office. I should spend more time in your office. It has the internet. I can look up lego.com, right? Absolutely. Whatever. Going over to kids' houses who had Macs, it felt a little bit like we don't even own a TV.

There was this attitude of, like, actually, the Mac is better. Right. That's what they were like. But your computer does nothing fun. What are you talking about? Until the iMac, it was like, this computer is boring, and you're telling me that you're better. The old joke was that they were like Catholics and that PC users were like Protestants. But the Mac users were like, it has to be this way.

It's very important and it's the best version. PC users were like, I don't know. You know what this is. But here is the thing I want to say. Yeah. Okay. So anytime I would have to use a PC computer and like even remember like seeing it boot up and like seeing DOS and seeing just like what they talk about in this first part of the movie yeah

of the design the aesthetic yeah I remember as a kid being like this sucks it was bad it's this is really bad yeah like you didn't think it was a friendly face where the slot was a smile? No, it was the opposite. It was like so clunky and just seeing even just the like behind the scenes of how the computer worked, like it was just immediately recognizable that like Apple computers were superior.

They were superior. And the whole thing with the first act of the film, which is about the Macintosh 128, is he's had this great idea for a computer that anyone can use, including his five-year-old daughter. But unfortunately, because it's 1984, it costs the equivalent of like 10 grand today. Well, David, let's not skip ahead,

because a thing that I had completely forgotten that I think is actually really key to this movie is starting with the arthur c clark interview yeah i think it is incredibly important clark just raining threes oh everything he says is correct saying exactly what's going you might as well be like and then you'll pay your bills with paypal ebay is gonna be the auction site you won't have to work in an office anymore you can live out in the country and work remotely. He's from the concession stand. Like, he's not even on the court.

He's so far away. And everyone is just like, interesting theory, Mr. Clark. But basically, I do think he sets such a good context for what's going to drive Steve Jobs for the rest of this movie, which is like these people who see this is the future. This is the thing that fundamentally changes humanity and society. The greatest obstacle to that right now is that computers seem scary. They seem unfriendly, daunting. And they seem like for technical professionals who need them,

but they don't seem like something casual. Here are all the functions that these will serve at some point to make our lives easier. But saying to this little kid, someday it's going to be this big and not this crazy room that looks like a dentist's office, right? Steve Jobs is just like obsessive about like, how do I get the thing that makes people feel comfortable? Right.

That they want to bring into their home for the right price, the right functionality, the right look. He doesn't want the hobbyists and the hackers. He doesn't want it to be opened, and he doesn't want it, yes, like, you know, he was very... Like a computer for the people. Not to jump ahead, but the first PC, my, sorry, the first computer my grandma ever bought was an iMac, the iMac.

She was one of the 30% of people who had never owned a computer before. That really was that moment, where it's like my grandma, in her 60 60s at that point was like, well, we've got this internet now. I guess I should check it out. It finally seemed approachable to a lot of people. I want a computer that you plug it in. You plug the mouse in. You plug the keyboard in. That's all I have to do.

It works and it connects to the internet and it gives me email. I remember when my… He was right. He was right. It's just that nothing else was really ready for him there. remember when he was right he was right before it's just that nothing else was really ready for him there i just remember blowing my fucking mind when my my like elementary middle school whatever converted to imax you walk in and now there's just like a lineup of imax and you're like that's the whole thing there's like nothing under the desk underneath yeah there's no giant

console it's just this one thing that looks like candy they were in our computer lab too and they looked so cool they look so cool that is the so cool. That is the like Steve Jobs thing. Lisa Brandon Jobs is wrong. Is that it like has to look good. And people have to like how it looks. That's why he changes out the fucking hydrangeas to the calla lilies in the middle section. A great unspoken thing that happens

throughout the middle section. It's so smart. And he's right. It does look better. This other thing he, I think, understood is like you only get one chance to make a first impression right yeah and and people remember the way these things yeah because of course the central dilemma of the first act is that they need the macintosh to say hello which is what it did on stage you can watch the video but it's like we've just seen

the rc clark interview this is the exact thing he's combating it can't be how right um and hertzfeld the programmer is like it's not gonna happen it's gonna crash it's not gonna work and he's like it better work and he's bullying him and he's controlling him right i'm gonna call you out on stage if it doesn't work lifts up hersfell's t-shirt and he goes which symbol is on your chest because he looks like a fucking care bear remind me are you like a four- clover are you are you a rainbow um you got a lollipop tummy that that shot where fast where jobs is like threatening hertzfeld and the elevator is closing in on him as he shoots him with the finger he's doing this he's doing it to his own head it looks so good but that's also that's the moment he's doing this. He's doing it to his own head. It looks so good. But that's also,

that's the moment he's just taking the shirt off. He's just taking the shirt off. He's got the fucking guns and then when he puts the gun to his head, he's flexing. Oh my God. It's too hot.

It's too hot. So you got that going on. You've got him flipping out over the fact that Time Magazine has put a weird sculpture of a computer

on... He doesn't know what's a sculpture yet. He thought he was gonna be man of the year and said person of the year is the computer. He doesn't know it's a sculpture yet. He thought he was going to be man of the year and said person of the year is the computer. And he's blaming it on the fact... Another great job by Time Magazine. He's blaming it on the fact that Dan Kotke,

who we never see in the movie, there's all these people in the movie who we never actually see but are referenced constantly, which I think is cool. But it's because he gave a quote about chris ann and the paternity and he's like this is why i'm not man of the year because now i'm some kind of bum father or whatever right and he gave a quote he gave jobs gave a quote to time magazine an absolutely absurd quote that is a real quote he gave yep like oh oh this paternity test doesn't mean anything like if you do the math

like 28 of american men could have been the dad what is that what is the number on the it's like 94 it's 94 accurate and he has somehow extrapolated that his argument is the remaining six percent equals 28 of right american men right but she interprets it as you think you're calling me a slut right yes um now chrisanne was this sort of like weird hippie lady he lived in a commune with. Again, you should read Lisa's book if you're a nerd like me. She certainly was a complicated person, it seems like. And a weird mom and chaotic, etc. But yeah, he's essentially slandering her in the press. And as she's pointing out to him, he's rich.

So, you know, step up. He's incredibly rich. And everyone's talking about what a rich genius this man is. It's in the first section where he said, now would be a good time to get in on Apple stock. Yes, he does say that. Oh, that's such a dick thing to say. He says a lot of dickish things to her. He's so dick to her.

I think he's not nice. Yeah, he's not very nice to her. It seems to be some kind of weird defense mechanism he has. Katherine Watterson's really good in this movie playing like yeah what are you doing on your phone just doing the free spins on disney emoji blitz so i get the diamonds i i was like it has to be something that depraved it is yes hey thanks steve jobs if it weren't for him i wouldn't be able to have two devices i could sync up with each other to get double diamonds i don't even want to know um you do it on the iphone and

you do it on the ipad you log into the same account so it lets you do it twice in one hour this is scary i'm not acknowledging this grave right now um what do you think of katherine waterston as chris i always love her yeah me too i think she's good yeah um because it's the toughest role in a way it's the toughest role so i think she like i don't know if she totally gets there for me personally i think she's asked to do, she's asked to be like a Sorkin woman, which is, you know, hard. A pretty thankless job.

She's complaining. She's like, she's complaining and she's crying and she has to be like, she has to be like the woman. Like Kate Winslet does not really have to be like, capital T, capital W, the woman. Kate Winslet is like the conscience of the woman. Yeah, exactly. And so I think Katherine Watterson

has one of the hardest jobs in this movie and she does fairly well with it. But eventually she arrives with Lisa. Lisa's a five-year-old girl. And Steve is so heartbreakingly mean to her. Horrendous. Something funny that Steve does is that I think Joanna says, Chrisanne is here. And he goes, Brennan? as if there is another Chrisanne who he knows yes he's such an asshole he's such an asshole but yes the fact that he keeps on

like openly in front of his daughter saying she's not my daughter right and that at age where it's like this will stick to her forever

this is kind of a lifelong traumatic thing to hear that she like plaintively says like you know oh so the lease is not named after me.

And he's like, no, it's just a coincidence. Like, you know, because she'll actually listen. It's so much worse than that because everyone sort of goes like, move on. Don't listen to him.

Don't listen to him. No, no, no. You know what? Actually, I need to take the time to drill this into her head. And like, I think this is part of why people don't like this movie

because he is so acid, like nasty in the first part of the film. Like, it's not like he's like, I think this is part of why people don't like this movie. Because he is so acid, like nasty in the first part of the film. Like, it's not like he's like all, you know, giggles in the latter two acts. But he does soften and evolve and like learn. And there is some, but like he's really tough in the first act. He's pretty unlikable. So for people who aren't going to read the books like me why is he doing this well it's the great mystery of steve like it's never really revealed or it's some combination of he clearly feared initially like in his early years like he had had a baby in a commune with a woman he was

sort of like not really you know like that they were kind of dating kind of it was a commune right and he clearly was like i'm famous now i'm i'm the great steve jobs right like i can't have this didn't ding in my kind of love child right and also i'm sure he probably had like lawyers and himself being like well you don't want to you know don't don't pay any more than you are have to right right but the the the lisa brennan jaws book is so the the thing that's so painful is that he wouldn't acknowledge it for so long stuff like the computer which he like it took him like almost to the end of his life to finally be like yeah i named the computer after you where it's like everyone knew that already you know what i mean but like he would

get weird and stubborn about it like this is the whole mystery of him. Like why was he such a fucking asshole sometimes? And I think the movie, I think Sorkin tries to be like, well, he got adopted by his family. And then they gave him back. And the book is very big on this too. He was very fucked up about that notion that he'd been returned by a family. They gave him back. very fucked up about that notion that he'd been returned.

They gave him back. And then his new parents had to like, his new adoptive parents had to like Duke it out for a year in court to become his adoptive parents. Cause they weren't viewed as good enough to be. Cause his birth mom was like, they have to be Catholic. Middle class or whatever. Adoptive parents weren't.

And so he says in the movie, my mom refused to love me for a year and you know jeff daniels is like you can't that you can't do that and steve jobs says yes you can which i think is what he's trying to do with lisa he's like i am closing that off i am not trying to love this child on purpose and it kind of cracks a little bit when she does that little drawing okay so one of the greatest moments right so he's got the macintosh out and she's fooling around with it and then she does a painting for him that looks kind of like the iMac talk about someone else talk okay so she no i want to force you to talk i don't i don't want david to cry i want david to talk about it

i like burst into tears so many times during this movie and it's always to do with the daughter like that's always a well it's just it's the theme throughout the movie they can only communicate through technology yes right through and not just through technology through his inventions like that's his ego right in the most spectacular way right you're always just talking about his shit and there's even that moment later where kate wins is like talk to her about the things she likes that's how you can communicate with your daughter and that's even that moment later where kate wins is like talk to her about the things she likes that's how you can communicate with your daughter and that's when he talks to her about the song we can talk about that later but like almost everything else is her painting the abstract

right in the first act uh her asking about the cube in this and like the the measurements of the cube in the second act right and then obviously, a thousand songs in your pocket. Yeah. In the third act, but when she makes the abstract, the look on his face when he sees it. And that's the moment where he looks at her and then he makes her type her name in. And she types her mother's name because that's her last name.

But you can see when the camera is behind them looking at the screen, he's just like staring at her. And there's just so many good shots of Fassbender like looking at this girl and being like, fuck, she is smart. She is just like me. Which is the thing that almost hurts him the most to admit. And that moment. Which everyone is saying like, this girl is just like you. Don't you understand this? That moment where he turns around and says,

she's using Mac paint. Right. And he's like glowing. And then he suddenly goes like, I'll buy you a house. I'll pay for everything. Don't worry about it. But it's like this odd thing of like,

he is equally proud that the computer works in the way he would. And that she is smart enough to know how to use it. And the two things communicate together. His entire philosophy of like, I need to do this not because I want to be seen as a genius, not because I want to make a billion dollars, but because I actually think there is like human potential that can be unlocked by giving...

Putting these in front of kids. The tools. You know, anywhere in the world. Right. What suddenly can happen? And it's like in that one moment, he sees the thing that he's been fighting for for like 10 to 15 years that's still 10 to 15 years away from actually really working on the skill he wants it to but it crystallizes the

whole thing for him of like i'm not wrong no this can work right like he says with the um what is the name of the ship when they're in the next section, the spaceship. The Skylab. The Skylab. And he's like, the eight years away thing, it's like, they're 15 years away. Right. Yes. But they actually will figure out how to get it down.

Yes. Yes. The thing right now is literally just too expensive. Like, that was the problem with the Macintosh. It costs so much

that only computer hobbyists were wanting to use it. Right. And computer hobbyists were like, what the fuck is this thing? I can't even take the back off

and put my favorite two hickeys in it. Right. Put put a sound card in but all these balances of like is it better to have the price be devound but for it to have no memory right for it to be a crappy thing be the right shape or size that it's inviting into people's homes but it doesn't run all these this has always been the apple thing it's like you pay this premium for something that does what other products do and Steve Jobs would be like, yeah, but it does it better. And you'd be like, well, sure, but I don't have another

500 bucks, Steve, you know, or whatever. And that was the thing with this fucking thing. And you'd also be like, why doesn't it do this one thing that I really want to? It's like, well, that's not our philosophy. Yeah, right. And then sometimes you'd be like, eh, I don't want you to do that. We decide that discs don't exist anymore.

One of the most interesting things about the iPhone was that you couldn't look at porn on it. And I remember, and that was late in Steve Jobs' life, like some tech reporter like texting with Jobs being like, come on, Steve. Like, people are grownups. Like, you know, can't they make these decisions for themselves? He was like, nah, I don't think so. I don't think they should. You know, like he just fundamentally sometimes. I was maybe right about that one.

No, this is the thing. Sometimes you're like, well, I mean, I don't know about the porn You know, like he just fundamentally sometimes. I was maybe right about that one. No, this is the thing. Sometimes you're like, well, I mean, I don't know about the porn thing, but just in general, like sometimes you're kind of like, yeah, maybe we don't need like that much. Well, that is like the thing about this movie is that he's usually right. Like outside of, in his interpersonal relationships, he is almost always wrong. And when it comes to Apple, he is almost always wrong. Right. And when it comes to Apple, he is almost always right. And when you see him in his house, like, you know, which is apparently how he lived, like, there would be no furniture in the house.

And they'd be like, where's your furniture? He's like, eh. It's hard. It's hard to pick a sofa. But there is like a giant. It's not that hard. You're rich. A giant light up Picasso.

Right. That is the genius of the guy where, like, he could look at any situation and be like, here's the thing in terms of how this is going to work six months into someone doing this every day. Right. He had such an intelligence about like what are human behaviors, what are our wants, what are our needs, things that are almost unspoken. The annoyances, the one extra step that drives people insane, that slowly like gnaws at you. And how do you circumvent that? Or how do you solve the problem people haven't even identified

they need solved for them yet? But yes, it's all in service of this idea of making lives easier for people, making them happier, a thing he has no ability to do as a human being. He only makes people more miserable and stressed out. It's having empathy for the consumer.

He has consumer empathy and zero empathy for anyone he actually knows firsthand. That's what's so frustrating. That's what makes it so good. That's what makes it such a good movie. But tech guys like Wozniak are caught up in the potential of what could this do? And thinking about the arms race against the other tech guys.

And he's like, I'm thinking of the consumer. I'm thinking of David's grandmother 20 years from now. You know? Yeah. And, like, what's going to confuse her? And how can a guy be that thoughtful and also be like, I'm going to say to this five-year-old, to her face, that I'm not her dad? And you ask, like, how is that even possible? There's that exchange that he and Winslet have later in the movie.

What's the term she keeps on using? Like, selective delusion or something like that? No, the reality distortion field. Reality distortion field that's what that everyone at apple talked about yeah but that that was also that it's like that what that referred to is that people would come to jobs and he would be like i want you to do this in three months and they would be like well that's literally impossible yeah i can't do that like i can't design that in three months and he'd be like yes you can you know and they would kind of get sucked into it because they'd be near him.

Yeah. And that that was part of his charm or his magic or whatever is that you get sucked into the reality distortion field. Did any of you watch the ILM documentary that was cast in Disney Plus? It's so fucking good, David. I just watched Steve Jobs again.

Yeah. Here's what you should watch next. ILM documentary. But there's a part where Dennis Muren is talking about on Empire Strikes Back, they're working on a shot. George decided he wanted like an extra establishing shot of the Hoth

landscape where the camera is sort of like a helicopter shot overhead. And then he was like, could we get Luke and the Tauntaun going by tiny in the middle of the shot? And he's like, this is an actual shot. This is a real shot. I can't just add the stop motion element to it here. Right.

And he was just like, well, how would you go about it? And he's like, it's George. It's impossible. You didn't storyboard it this way. We didn't shoot the plate in the way that it was conducive. And he was like, George just said to me, OK, well, just just think on it. And I was like, it's impossible. He's like, I hear you just think on it. And I was like, it's impossible. And he was like, I hear you, just think on it.

And he was like, George walked away. I sat there stewing for 15 minutes at the arrogance of him not accepting me speaking from a place of knowledge, which he did not have. George did not understand any of this technology. And then 15 minutes in, I went, oh, fuck, there's one way to do it.

And I solved it. And he was like, I never, ever would have gotten there if he hadn't said that exact thing to me even like it's sort of a flip of the jobs thing but like the if he had yelled at me and screamed at me or had even been kinder and be like try your hardest yeah i would have never gotten to it right and it was the fact that his only path was just like well think about it see what happens jobs was sort of like the more extreme hostile version of that which is like here's what i want and everyone go like that is not grounded reality distortion field it's impossible it's just like well figure out how

it's figured out yeah um it's not my job to figure it out my job is to tell you what my job is to have the idea and then you figure it out kind Kind of a sick job if you have that talent. Just to be the person who's like, what if there was an iPod? Can I come in with this? What is that job very similar to? Being a film director? Well, sure. A little of that.

That's a little bit of the Boyle thing here. Although Boyle is obviously the opposite of this where he's like, I'm not a dictator. I try to operate from kindness. I try to have good relationships with people. I mean mean i think he's injecting so much empathy into the film of course i were i love david fincher yes i love the man yes and it's i do not think he makes like emotionally distant movies i think there's a lot of emotion closer to a jobs yeah in a way i don't know what his version of the jobs-Lisa relationship comes out as. You know what I mean? But when Wozniak says the thing to him of like, it's not binary.

Yeah. You can be a genius and be nice at the same time. It's like that's the thing that Boyle as a person is arguing for in this movie while making a movie about a guy who didn't think that was possible. Or at least didn't practice that. Because that's what the director job is. It's a George Lucas story of like, I need to get 18 different things done to realize some vision

without necessarily understanding each of these jobs firsthand. Wait, what do you want to say? What I was going to say is that in preparation for this, I went back and listened to my other favorite podcast, What the Fuck with Mark Maron.

And I listened to the Danny Boyle episode where he went on promoting this movie. Mark Maron, by the way, loves this movie. Taste. But Danny Boyle is like, most of my movies are about redemption. That's like the Catholic in me that like,

at the end of this movie, there is some sense that like, through this father-daughter relationship, something has been achieved. And I just don't know that Fincher can really get there. Who knows? There is a slight gooey center to this movie. Like way, way, way, way, way deep down.

Was much criticized at the time. Turned me off at the time. Now I think is essential. But that's harder for Fincher to get at it's a movie that doesn't exist I'd love to see some version of it Fincher likes bottled emotions like he likes

people's inability to actually say the thing versus this is a movie about a guy who needs to in some way admit acknowledge right the only other big thing in the first act that we haven't really talked about yet is Wozniak, of course.

Lovely Woz, who always appears the same way. Hey, Steve, really excited for you. And he's like, can you just shout out the Apple II, guys? So the Apple II, you guys know what an Apple II looked like? Yeah. Only because I looked it up.

It had the green screen. Eventually it did. The hacker screen? Yes. The green text on the- Really, all the Apple II is, is this. Huh. Is this.

Yeah. You know, you could hook it up to whatever you wanted. Sure. Whatever monitor you wanted. You could play games on it. You could play a lot. It had lots of slots, which is what they're arguing over. The slots. What is Woz saying? It's like, people love slots. Yes. it you can plug a lot it had lots of slots which is what they're arguing over the slots what is

what is it like people love slots yes because like was is a computer nerd right it's the fucking 70s yeah if you're a computer nerd you're basically like a metal engineer right you know like i mean it's so hard it's like hot rodders like they want to soup up their cars you know the game breakout you know you know with steve wozniak program that game wow it's one of the first ever video games that was a was joint yeah damn uh were you about to say what were people doing on these things well i was saying more what are you doing with eight slots there wasn't that many different kinds of floppy disks but you could you would plug in these like fucking cassettes that you could like run right and like you would plug in game controller i don't know

yeah i don't know what they did with those. I'm not a computer hobbyist. I don't know, man. My dad had this stuff. It was called a SideQuest. And it was magnetic tape. Right. And it was the most memory you could get

on a portable whatever drive disk. But you could get eight megabytes. You could get eight megabytes you get eight megabytes and it was huge yes yeah yeah it's like the size of a computer now but that's like you know the hardcore people who are using computers at this point in time most of the things that would take advantage of those slots were failed technologies that would be like you know out of here within a year or whatever but people wanted to be testing out every new idea that someone had for an add-on. And the idea of, for that extreme kind of consumer,

there's a certain Wozniak level of Steve Jobs' empathy for consumer of, like, don't make them have to swap it out all the time. Right, well, yeah, yes. But the Apple 2 at that time obviously is the big seller for them because that's the computer market but steve doesn't want to acknowledge them no that's the past because he didn't he didn't do anything he didn't do anything he's not part of it and also he doesn't want his cool product to be associated

with that you know computer dork thing anyway they're hoping the macintosh is going to sell a million units it doesn't it was a flop uh because it was too expensive oh oh and of course jeff daniels is there that's the other right jeff daniels the the big thing with him in the first act is they're talking about the ridley scott directed 1984 ad starring skinheads which which had some skinheads enjoying a 55 margot they're having a 55 Margot. And they've got this whole father-son thing, right? You know, it's very obvious. Oh, did you guys want a glass?

Yes, please. One of the funniest exchanges of dialogue in this movie is when they're talking about the bet that Hertzfeld had made that Jobs was going to switch the verse from the Bob Dylan song. And Jobs is like why why would herzfeld make that bet and he says uh because he was warning me that like being your father figure is gonna be a bad shake and then jobs like tries to go yell at herzfeld and and jeff just like turns back and he's like i'm proud of you like immediately snapping into father mode yeah it just really it really works for me and it makes me kind of giggle every time i mean daniels is just so in the pocket on on the the sorkin thing at this moment he is really making a meal out of everything he is asked to do in this

movie i remember reading some interview with daniels jowls be going crazy on this movie too he'd be jowling all over i always every time i look at daniels in at any age my first thought is uh golden retriever yeah sure i mean especially like terms of endearment or whatever right yeah but he looks like a golden retriever you know when a golden retriever gets old and now that's right that's the thing i'm like but turns when dear i'm like oh it's a young plucky yeah and then this you're like it's some old dragon is hind legs yeah right where you're like yeah yeah it's not just his hair coloring but it's it's no it's the length of the face and his whole attitude is sort of aw shucks thing but um i remember an interview with him i think it was when this movie was coming out but also maybe there was another newsroom season or it was ending

or whatever it was. He was doing like a career overview thing and they asked him about working with Sorkin because he had had such a good kind of connection with him at this point. And then they do To Kill a Mockingbird after this. But he was just like, the whole thing is,

I just threw my pen in theory. He's like, the whole thing is you just have to know the dialogue so well. Like you need to wrestle this stuff down. It's really precise. It's really specific. It's really rhythmic. And you need to know it's so dead to rights

backwards and forwards that then you can play with it and do anything with it. Because you're not going to play with the language. You can play with how you dance around it. That's the thing I remember him saying. He's like, then you can dance on it. And I always just picture

Jeff Daniels doing a soft shoe on top of like a Sorkin script. How do you guys feel about the Boyle projection? Like when he's projecting the lyrics to the Bob Dylan song? I love any of that shit. And then in the second act where he shows the

Skylab, I mean, it's breaking the reality. It mean paul that's the breaking the reality you're in a movie baby it was a thing that i don't know if it bugged me the first time i saw but it was sort of that thing of like bo feels like a weird choice for this material and i'm going to see it and i'm like why did boyle make this and then those things start happening and i was like he couldn't help himself huh but now i i think it's more of a piece. Yeah. Yeah. That ad is crazy, though. That ad is so crazy. It's kind of insane.

But I also think it's like unlike anything else. Probably like the most famous ad in the world. Like, it's incredible. But also, they're right about it where it's like the ad was a massive success as a piece of filmmaking that did nothing for the brand or the product. No. It worked mostly as an advertisement for itself. It did plant Apple in the name, like the name in the heads of people.

Yeah, it was a success, but it was not a success the way a corporate board might perceive it because the Macintosh didn't sell. But the Macintosh didn't sell because it cost too much money. Yeah. Fundamentally. Yeah. The ad rules, Ridley Scott.

Yeah. We'll do it one day. Let me do him. Sure. We'll do the 1984 ad. I'm going gonna throw a hammer It'll be great Act two

Yes I know No no I know I know I know We've been talking for a long time Can we say

I just want to quickly say At two points Look we We obviously did a very committed bit In the 127 hours episode Yeah Where for real We recorded for 127 straight hours

Of course And you guys have heard that And that was real and it was great and it was really seamless. We really leaned into it. We really leaned into it and it was clean and we didn't forget to track the logic of it at times. That's why I have strep. Of course. At two different times

Ben has pitched one doing the entire episode on treadmills. Yes. That was a pitch at one point. How many treadmills could I get so pitch at one point how many treadmills could i guess we could walk and talk the whole episode which david we'd really get our steps in yeah yeah absolutely but david's argument was it would be too loud would be very loud those things are not quite a treadmill is loud yes right and then my pitch at one point in time and it was you basically said

i don't want this bit to overpower the things I actually have to say about this movie. My bit was the episode was three acts in three different time periods of doing this podcast with three different guests. Yeah. And we made the audio quality better as it went along. Right. And we treated the first act

like we were in the closet at UCB, and then someone came in and canceled us and said, Danny Boyle miniseries over. It's a failure. And it had taken us eight years to get to the final episode. But thankfully, we settled on we're all wearing turtlenecks. Yeah, and that works. It works.

So good. And we're all wearing glasses. We should have just all done mild Polish accents. Steve, what's the matter with you? What? I've been doing the Polish accent the entire time. What are you talking about? I swear this time I was kind of like, maybe it's just that it's thickest in the first act.

And by the last act it's gone. And that's fine because she's lived in America 15 more years. If you watch like a video of the real Joanna Hoffman, Kate Winslet is doing a good job. It's just that it sounds weird. It sounds like one second before filming, they were like, oh, and like kind of do like a Polish thing. There is that thing with people who are like deeply Americanized but haven't totally lost their accent where it's not there in every syllable and it's in and out.

I do agree with you, though, David, that I was thinking the exact same thing. And then start of act three, it's really heavy. And you're like, well, this is where it starts to. Because you need that great line about like the broad European tragedy of your life or whatever. It's like I'm not from a shadow. The broad european tragedy of your life or whatever it's like i'm not from the broad eastern european canvas of your life but act two is when uh she's kind of not even bothering oh sorry act two yes sir act two at the san francisco opera house the music is suddenly strings i was gonna say she's not even bothering but isn't that when she's or is it act one where where uh where lisa says like i i i like the way you

sound she says that to her in act one and and she replies thank you that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me which is very nice yeah um but no act two obviously it's the um it's the opera house they're launching the next steve jobs has been fired from apple uh he's got this kind of slick back hair the brown contact lenses michael fanspender is wearing are suddenly really popping yeah uh he looks kind of like a shark i have always contended he is a scary looking man he's a scary looking handsome he is he has a shark smile and he's got pointy teeth yes he's got pointy teeth and especially when his eyes are blue they look a little too blue wait not buffalo bill uh who's the manhunter one

oh uh fucking oh god why can i not tooth fairy tooth fairy there you go you know the other the other hand yeah yes yes the other hannibal yes villain and so now lisa is nine uh her relationship with steve is clearly better 234 diamonds by the way I'm going to sync with the iPad, so I'll keep people updated. I'll get me at least one diamond box. He is like chilled out on her a little bit. They're better. Yeah, they're certainly better. He is also in chilled out mode.

Yes. Because as he slowly reveals, he basically knows this thing he's launching is basically just kind of like a test balloon. It's not really designed for commercial. It's designed to have an OS that does not exist yet that will eventually get sold to Apple. And this is, of course, when I start ranting to my wife about how if you look at NextOS, which is what eventually they did create for it,

it is this. It's this. And I was just like, it's the first version of this and it's still what you fucking use. And then I picked up my phone and I was like, he's everywhere! And then you filed for divorce? I was created on it yes it was yeah that is absolutely right tim berners-lee who will be saluted in danny boyle's olympic ceremony wow

use the next computer to create the world wide web yeah take that wait who's the guy who did ibm bill gates he's mic, but sure, yeah. Well, whatever. Yeah, in your face, Gates. What's the fucking difference? Well, they're very different. What do you mean? All right, forget it.

Who cares? And so what happens in this act, Griffin? Like, what are the key... You know, Chris-Anne seems a little more unstable this time. Yes. Jobs is kind of freaked out by just how, you know, weirdly she's using money. Says maybe she threw a cereal bowl at her daughter. Right.

There's kind of the, you know, the daughter seems much more unsettled. The years-long sinus infection. That begins here. Yeah. This is the start of this. She needs to see a doctor and a dentist. And he says, I dropped out of college after one semester, but I'll give it a look. Yes, which is funny. This is also

the act in which he puts his feet in the toilet bowl, which is something that Steve Jobs would really do. It's so weird that that is not explained. There's a lot of things in this movie that aren't really explained. But it is like the first time you watch that movie, you're like, what the fuck is he doing? It feels like something

someone who took too much lsd would do which might be i mean he took a lot of a lot of lsd he took a lot he took a lot so i like that he flushes after he washes them yeah good for him what'd you get in there um another another thing i like is when he's with lisa alone in the dressing room in this movie and they're talking about the cube and she's measuring it with the ruler and she says what did she say if i had another ruler i'd measure this ruler which is a very steve jobs thing to say and it's very like oh these two are more similar than he would like them she's a little sorkin baby yeah she's a little she can do the patter with him yeah because he sort of explained to her like, well, if it was actually a perfect cube, it would look weird.

So it has to be like this. And she's like, I don't know. My ruler needs a 20 cent ruler. It's that thing where he's like, he's sending so many people away in annoyance for saying the wrong thing to him. Right. And she is actually combating him. Right. But he kind of tolerates it more because she's making like the Jobsian argument.

Right. She's getting in his head. Right. Yeah. Right. But there's there's yeah so there's that tension um the big sort of thing that has to be fleshed out in flashback and argument is that john scully ousted him slash the board ousted him whatever you know like that's there that's the big showdown of this act is them screaming at each other in the room full of chairs. Full of chairs. Oh. When this scene starts, my heart starts racing. Yes, go on.

It's so good. It's like, first of all, it looks silly at first with the chairs. The chairs look silly. And then it looks, and then you realize you're in for, like, a verbal Western duel sort of thing. Where, like, they're far away from each other and they're coming in and then they're gonna just like fucking explode he's gonna dance on it he dances on it he dances on it my shit is still somewhere in shanghai yeah like right the flashback with like the rain pouring down the window and they're in the dark room and the dutch angles like from above

of jobs being like you can't fire me. Yes. And Jeff Daniels being like, well, this guy's out of control. It is a thing I think this movie does very well is the rare times it does cut away. It knows when to do it. It does jump into a brief flashback. It was and Jobs in the garage arguing over the slots. You need

to see the outstaying. You need to see the dinner. Basically, the restaurant in the third act.ing. You need to see the dinner. Yeah. Basically. The restaurant in the third act. Yeah. Yeah. You absolutely do. Well, I guess the other major thing in act two is why is Stuhlbarg there? He shows up very briefly. He shows up there.

He's just fooling around. Yeah. He's like, oh, let me see the next. He shows up to show them the Macworld thing, too. And that's right. It's that Joanna's like, wait a second. You're trying to get back into Mac. Right.

That's what this is, isn't it? But there's the lawsuit going on as well that they keep on saying, like, why are Woz and Stuhlbarg here? I don't know. No, he's just mad that they're still at Apple. He's kind of been, and that Woz,

like, when Steve got pushed out, it's Woz dissed him in the press. Woz gave a quote, and then... And he's like, Jeff Daniel when Steve got pushed out. Oh, right. It's Waz dissed him in the press. Waz gave a quote, and then. And he's like, Jeff Daniels made you do that. Yeah. And then he tells Jeff Daniels, he's like, don't do that to Rain Man or whatever. He calls him Rain Man. He's like, I love that guy, no matter what happens.

Yeah. Like, you can't send him to do that. Right. That's the great scene with Waz, where where was has the watch that has the two crazy tubes in it and and he's like explain this to me and he's like you don't understand this is the future of tech and and steve jobs is essentially like do change one thing on he's like it's fine it's fine you just need like a screwdriver the fucking jobs genius is like a he sees what we need a thing to do and b he sees the flaws in other products of the thing you're not thinking about

that he can recognize immediately. This is the scene where fucking Rogan takes it to the paint. Sure, I mean, he takes it to the paint in the final act, too. Yeah, I think this is, for me... To use Jeff Daniels' terms, he's dancing on it.

He's in the pit. I get kind of choked up on this monologue just because I think his... There are ways in which his voice cracks. Most of it plays out in a long shot. He has such an expressive voice. They do long sort of extended takes, but you're not going to close up of him.

And so you're really feeling him build the momentum of the monologue in real time. Like they're letting the performance dictate the flow of the scene. The other thing, and maybe it's why I'm like so bullish on this performance, but I think it's so

impressive. Rogan gets announced and you're like, yeah, that kind of makes sense. If you need to get a famous person to play Wozniak, sure, that sort of makes sense. How's he going to fit into the Sorkin thing, right? For someone who has such a specific rhythm of dialogue, right, has his own comedy stylings, his own speed, his own way of

talking, most of the movies he's in he writes himself yeah now here's a guy who's got an entirely different clip and rogan also is a guy who like improvises a lot and riffs a lot and it's not about precision acting you know it's like vibe feeling it out throwing stuff at the wall and now it's like you have to deliver like a five page sorkin monologue that just like builds and builds in intensity. And but don't overplay it. Part of the Sorkin thing is everything's a little bit tossed off. And it is that thing where as the speech goes on and he like starts revealing sort of his complicated relationship with this guy who he always has simultaneously loved and hated, and he knows better than anyone else,

and his breath starts, like, picking up, and his voice starts cracking, I find it so heartbreaking. Absolutely. It's really moving. Yeah. It's, like, a really moving scene. And he just, he does have this guy

pegged better than anyone else in the entire movie. Right, because he knew him before he was fully Steve Jobs. Even better than Winslet, whose job is to, like, understand him on a day-to-day basis. Rogan's like, I know who you are at a core level. Right. Winslet, Hoffman just has bulletproof armor. Right.

So all his nonsense, she's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. But now, Steve, can we, Steve, please. But no, just to give you some, you know, Rogan, apparently really good at learning lines fast bender said he's he was jealous at how good rogan was at mastering dialogue he was obsessed he like obsessively watched lots of wasniak footage to try and get the real was a lot the real i could look we i love steve wasniak as a legend of computing we could

hang out with him the guy's like accessible he went on Shark Tank to pitch a product that was so bad. He's like the opposite. He was the one going up being like, sharks, I have an idea. It was, he was like one of the main investors in the product. And it was the other guy's company. And he came in and was like advising against a deal. And the product was a jacket to hold all of your devices. So just like a jacket with pockets? But was like it's designated pocket so there's an inner pocket that is laptop

size god he still hasn't fucking learned this is exactly that he'll never learn he'll never learn yeah it was right and he was like i fully believe this is the future of technology and mark cuban was kind of impressed was is there is like was He's like, Woz, come on. You're like, what are you talking about, man? And then this guy is like, I have five patents. And he's like, what the fuck are your patents? And he's like,

to run cables for devices in the lining of fabric. Cool. Sick. And Cuban is like, this is exactly what's wrong with America. I cannot believe

they would give you a patent for that. And the guy's like, well, can you blame me? And he's like, I do blame you. you get out of here you guys know Waz used to date Kathy Griffin right

hell yeah that rules it was kind of a feature of her TV show My Life on the D-List he was on it a lot a classic show I think of him as just like the classic he's just around Hawaiian shirt guy everyone thinks he's fun he was on Dancing with the Stars you know he's he's cheerful one

thing rogan says that's interesting is like the none of this dialogue is written as someone who has now studied steve wozniak is written in his voice i mean it's sorkin is sorkin for you know but uh but you know he's he's you know in saying all these things that clearly, you know, are part of the drama of Steve Wozniak. Yeah. Which is very interesting. Josh Gad played this part? He sure did. Yes, he did.

You know, Rogan doesn't really look like Wozniak at all, but I do like this Boyle quote where he's basically like, there is something essentially Woz-like about it. Yes. Right? You know, it's like the vibe is right. He's like a cheery guy. Bearded guy. Bearded guy with like a it. Yes. Right? You know, it's like the vibe is right. He's like a cheery guy. Bearded guy. Bearded guy with like a rounder build. This was before Seth Rogen really like trimmed down too. Yeah, he's kind of mid-trimmed.

Yeah. Well, he had trimmed more for Green Hornet. Yeah. And then kind of got a little more back to normal. And now he's like svelte. Now he's like a svelte vegan who does pottery, right? Right. And is like low-key.

I mean, he's always been hot. But also, his beard is huge in this movie. I feel like he did a really good job. And he's like a svelte vegan who does pottery, right? Right. And is like low-key. I mean, he's always been hot. But also, his beard is huge in this movie. I feel like he did a really good job. And he's got big hair. He's trying to get his whole head rounder like real was. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

But yes, the big, the Skylab monologue with the Skylab going by. And I do think about Skylab all the time. That we shot it into space and we were like. We'll figure it out. Probably know how to get it back. We'll invent how to get it back, right? And then just. That's what next is.

But yes, he sees Apple's failure in the horizon. And he sees their need for him on the horizon. And it's all going to come back together. And the third act is them launching the iMac he has finally achieved everything he's wanted yes do you want to talk about the both sides now conversation at all or should we I love that I love when he says it's not a really old song unless I'm a really old guy I love that so right that is the crucial thing we've not talked about in the second act is that, of course,

he tries to engage with her. Yes. What are you listening to? On Joanna's advice, he's like, I'm going to talk to her about her things. And she explains that she's listening to a song. A really old song. Two versions of the same really old song. Right. Now, what do we think the two versions are?

Well, one, the first one is Joni Mitchell. One of them is the Joni Mitchell version. But that's the later one. The original Both Sides Now is, I have it here. Hold on, because I listened to that. Judy Collins. Yes. That's right.

And that is the girlier version that she is referring to. And Joni Mitchell's is Regretful. Yes. You're too young to be regretful. So the second time I saw it was that, when she says that. And then she comes and hugs him And says she wants to live with him That part really breaks my heart

It's like oh god Your mom is like difficult But it's like so is your dad But like going to him and saying that Is like Heartbreaking He's more protective of her at this point He's always making up

for mistakes from the last time yeah so this time he's giving them money he's giving them security but now he's like oh god you live with her and she's crazy he doesn't know how to deal with that right and then the next one he finally is like do you want to watch backstage with me you know like he's doing things that she wants to do in the second act like in the third act like i'll say this too i mean going back to ben's question act like in the third act like i'll say this too i mean going back to ben's question of like how is it possible like how does he fucking deny her for this long doesn't like he just will deny things like this is what i'm saying it's so much about his like while supporting her and seeing her and his own sense of myth making around himself right

he doesn't want to accept the elements that aren't part of the narrative that he thinks helps the idea of what Steve Jobs is. Like he tells Scully in the last bit, I think, it's all about control. Right.

It's all about control. Right. He has no control over this like aspect of his life. Right. But over himself. Yeah.

Because he's poorly made. Yes. Well, that line destroys me. But I think more than like the denial of the daughter, it's like he doesn't want to acknowledge having been with chris ann to a degree you know that's embarrassing for him too

that's true yes he doesn't want to have to be associated with her for the rest of his life through the kid but he is yeah but he doesn't yeah yeah exactly okay so the third act is davy symphony hall They're doing the iMac. You see him doing the run of show. He's got the turtleneck. Now, of course, he did not actually wear the turtleneck. He's wearing like a dumpy suit in real life. Correct.

But Boyle and Fassbender are both like, he needs to fucking wear the Steve Jobs suit. He needs to end it with him looking like Steve Jobs. It would look ridiculous if he was... Look up what he was actually wearing. It would look so bad if he actually wore that in the movie. I mean, Act 2's suit is pretty dumpy. Oh, the double-breasted number?

And the fucking tuck-and-crawl. The bow tie isn't tailored at all. It's like hanging over his shoes. It's not great. No. His pants. But yes, and we see him doing, I like that we finally see a minute of the keynote from this one,

just as he's rehearsing it. So you see the iMac, you see the video. You see him doing, I like that we finally see a minute of the keynote from this one, just as he's rehearsing it. So you see the iMac. Yeah. You see the video. You see him practicing. Exactly. Right. And you see, because we never actually see the keynotes because we're cutting right before.

And you see the lights going to black. And what was different about it this time? I liked that. Sarah Snod. That felt cool. Sarah Snod actually turned the exit signs off, which is definitely not true. Sorry. I'm looking at the suit.

It's dumpy, right? I mean, it's 1998. Yeah. Wow. Did you have an iMac? Anyone have an iMac? No. Okay, cool.

I had one. Yeah. What color was it? It was blue. The original. Yeah. And I remember that day. It was so exciting. Yeah yeah i had a computer in

my room well that's really cool yeah that was i that was never allowed in my house i wanted like a little tv in my room and my parents were like absolutely not good parents okay so this is a very like 90s kids thing but uh did you guys are you saying they have snap bracelets Sorry We're both rushing Did you guys have a computer room Yes Because that's not a room anymore for people No

But of course most of my friends did It's like not a den Not an office It's a room for the computer Where you and your friends go to play like Freddy Fish together It used to be called the family room's a room for the computer. Right. It's just like where you and your friends go to play like Freddy Fish together. It used to be called the family room and then it became the computer room,

which is kind of the first. Go play the flight simulator. Yeah. Freddy Fish, good pull. Thank you. Yeah, did you have a computer room? Oh, yeah, absolutely. John was Sam.

Was that him? I think so. Wait, at what age did you get the iMac in your room? Because I got my computer in my room when I was 15. You guys all had computers in your room? i got my computer in my room when i was 50 you guys all had computers in your room olivia i pulled a heist because my parents also were like no tv in your room absolutely not but and on no computer but then when i became the editor of my high school newspaper i was like well now i need one you need it for school i need to work on it at home. And they were like, okay, we'll get you like a Dell. Yeah. You know, like a desktop computer.

And I was like, yeah. Oscar forums. Yeah. MSN Messenger. Yeah. The little dork I was. I think my grandparents got me a Sony VAIO when I was in high school. Wow, like James Bond.

Like James Bond. It is funny that Sony wanted to make this movie when it is about one of their great competitors yeah uh you never had a computer in your room uh no but i think i got a laptop at some point when i was like 16 maybe and i that was in my room right i got it at 13 and i immediately got into trouble with stuff. And I'm not going to define what that is. But it could be various different things. Various things, yeah. But wow, is the internet the wild west

in those days. It sure was. It really was crazy. Duty.com, remember that? I've seen a lot of the most fucked up shit in my life in the early, the 2000s era of the internet on the family computer in the computer room praying my parents weren't like around the corner but that was also the era where people would like come to and be like do you know there's bad shit on the internet you'd be like no way so normal or they'd like send

you a random link over aim and then you'd click it and it'd be the most vile shit you've ever seen now we know there's that shit out there so we work hard to avoid it and then you'd click it and it'd be the most vile shit you've ever seen in your life. Now we know there's that shit out there so we work hard to avoid it. Back then you were almost like, how the heck can I get? What do you mean? God, remember chain mail? Also, do you remember physical chain mail? I got

physical chain letters. Oh, yeah. I thought you were talking about the night stuff. That too. That's how old David is. That's the kind of chain mail he just talked about. Y'all are assholes. That stuff's heavy. Apple just called me really freaky.

What? Really? My headphones have been fixed or whatever. I believe that's what they're telling me. Okay, so the key drama's here. Sure. Steve's in a fight with Lisa over her college tuition because her mother

sold the house he bought for her. He's being a petty And he kind of lashed out and is not paying. And so Andy sent them a check. Andy sent them a check in a move that is

kind of half sweet, half kind of a passive-aggressive. Yeah, you know. But I also think it like really reinforces the fact that like Chris Ann is

there's a world outside of Steve. That's like we're aware that Steve is a very difficult father figure. Right. Right. You know, and there's this whole terse conversation where Andy's like, yes, I did recommend she go into therapy. And yes, it was partly because she does not have like a male.

She would love if you and Chris and joined her, which sounds like the worst hour of my life. Yes. Seriously. I'm the therapist. I'm like jumping out the window like fucking max von sida winslet reveals sorry jason miller what that the magazine cover yes it was a sculpture of a computer she kind of like does a thing where

she's like they didn't switch that in at the last minute right right right you never were person of the year she and him have a really in like when they're in that dressing room have a really great like tete-a-tete moment where she forces him to like figure shit out with lisa it's another moment that makes me cry uh it's when yes it's when he's being such a baby about lisa yes and then she starts she starts pushing the um the stupid apple profile pictures of geniuses. That part is a little... Onto the ground. No, you don't like that?

I just think whenever someone throws shit off of a desk in a movie, I'm like, okay. I just like that she knows that that will upset him. She's like, my perfect, my Alan Turing 9x4s. Sorry, there's that moment too where john ortiz asked him who the picture is and it's all about and he goes but he's not part of the campaign why because i just had to explain to you who he was but as steve johnson's obsessed with allenther of course yes as the urban legend goes the apple yeah yeah right um but um but are you talking about the moment where she says being

a father is supposed to be the best thing in someone's life tears in her eyes it's this sort of weird obviously this is a movie about press conferences but still she's like with tears in her eyes america's greatest pastime right i have been the guilty party to this i have been like silently enabling you for all these years and i'm so guilty about it because you're such a horrible father and like you know i've been watching you be a bad dad right like that's basically what she's saying yes um but yes when i cry is when she says what you make isn't supposed to be the best of you when you're a father that's what's supposed to be the best of you and for you it's the worst is the last part of that line and it's so clearly like right out of sorkin's like brain you know what i mean it's like so what what was her uh personal life like in real she's like a

fucking chiller chiller the chillest chiller you want me to look her up yeah she's the daughter of an incredible polish director okay uh jersey hoffman i believe is his name does she have like kids in a family she has two kids in the family. She has two kids in a family. She's an absolute fucking chiller. Cool. You're getting choked up thinking about her being a chiller. No, I'm just, my voice is like so destroyed. No, married to Alain Rossman, a native of France who worked at the Mac team. Okay. She has two sons with him. I'm seeing here that she is extraordinarily rich, just like pretty much every character in this movie because of the uh profits of apple it is it is a funny thing when like the schlubby guys are kicking around the background

and you have to think like oh right like michael stolbark has the money to pay for her right he can just write off a check for 25 000 all these guys they all cashed out their apple stock right they got when they worked in a garage or whatever right um. And then from then on, it's like, oh, you worked on the first Macintosh? You are guaranteed any job you want in this world. For the rest of your life. Yeah, if you want it. Or you can just do dumb startups.

And that's what Kate Winslet says. She says, you can find me at my next job doing literally whatever I want. Whatever I want. The real Joanna Hoffman hates Facebook. This is a quote on her Wikipedia page. She says that it is destroying the very fabric of democracy, the very fabric of human relationships,

and peddling in an addictive drug called anger. Go off, queen. So I feel like she's kind of like, you know, the conscience that she shows in this movie. Am I wrong for remembering that it's in the Isaacson book that like at the end of his life, Jobs was like, iPhone might have been a step too far. That he had a little bit of regret sort of on that same vein of like, this might have now, we might have given people too much. He's definitely resistant to the iPhone. Right.

definitely resistant to the iphone right and um doesn't like the he is worried that it's like literally just like not gonna like function if that makes sense but i'm not i can't remember if he's like societally worried it encouraged anti-social behavior after most of his devices were in theory him working towards this idea of greater connectivity i just think there's something to that, you know. Yeah, no, for sure. You're marching further and further to this point, and then you get to the place where you give people too much, and it almost sours everything.

I mean, I feel like his thing with the iPhone was more also just, I mean, look, the movie Blackberry is coming out this year. Great film. Ant. Ant. Which is another film along these lines about technology, but obviously it's what's so fun about it and so Canadian about it, it's a very Canadian film, is it's about these guys who made a thing that worked and then kind of got sucked into, like, well, it's got to be exactly like this forever.

And, you know, eventually, like, the world races ahead of them. And you think about it now where you're like, why the fuck would we not want this to be the screen? Yeah. Why would just the top bit be the screen yeah why would just the top bit be the screen and the rest be like and apparently that was what jobs was like he's like what the fuck is this keyboard but do you remember i mean because it was years of them being like jobs wants to fix the phone that's his new focus that was he would look at the other products and be like no like that's not what that should be like. Right. And then they finally reveal it and you're like, how do I

use this? Dial. You just touch it with your finger. What the fuck are you talking about? I remember when the iPhone came out, I was like, alright. Creepy. Enough. Like, I'm not gonna do this. That's not gonna happen.

Remember when apps were just like, you can pour a beer. It looks like you're pouring a beer with your phone. Those were what apps were. That's what apps were. I used to have an app called Fart that just had a button you push and it made a fart sound. We all had that app, yeah. Classic app. Classic app. That was the most advanced

app. Those were the days. And remember podcasts? Yeah. We used to have to listen to podcasts on our iPods. I'm going to put a thousand podcasts in your pocket. Ah! Get them out of here. My dad, every time I see my dad, he goes like, how many hours have you guys done now?

The one thing he wants to quantify. Have you ever tallied it up? No, because I'm like, I could tell you how many episodes it is. Like offhand, it's like 400, whatever. That's scary to think. But he's like, how many hours? Is it like 10,000 hours? You got like 20,000 hours?

I'm sure one of your listeners will tally it all up. In response to this. Yes, and it will be kind of a horrifying number for you guys. It's funny that that's the thing when he talks to other adults. He wants to be like, my son has over 20,000 hours. He wants to prove you're a Gladwell s yeah expert in 500 000 hours of evergreen so in the third act yeah he reconciles with john scully who shows up and they kind of talk it out and he confesses like i've always been in my head about my own adoption right you know the lack of

control there he talks about how he eventually did discover his real father they can't even get into the fact that he was the way it all worked was mona simpson who is herself famous yeah a famous novelist yeah wrote anywhere but here wrote a bunch of books the character mona simpson and the simpsons i was gonna say ben do you know this homer's she was married to a simpsons writer so Homer's mother is named after her Mona Simpson oh Steve Jobs real biological sister who he connected with later in life and then led him to his biological father his parents had Steve Jobs his mother puts him up for adoption her father dies and he is the one who's kind of against them being married because Steve Jobs's biological father is a Syrian immigrant who's Muslim.

And so her father dies. They get married. They have another kid who they keep. Wow. And she eventually finds Steve. Yes, she eventually finds Steve. And they know. But he doesn't tell his dad?

He doesn't. But he realizes, I know who that is. She's like, my dad is, your dad is this syrian restaurateur and he's like oh i fucking know that guy yeah right and he used to brag about how steve jobs comes into my restaurant and he never met him but then eventually the dad figured it out you can read all about it it's but anyway mona simpson was married to a simpsons writer and they named homer's mom after her yeah the most important part of that yeah. They can't even get into all that. But clearly this is so much a part of what he, why he seeks control in all parts of his

life, according to Aaron Sorkin, armchair psychologist. Look, I'm all for Aaron Sorkin's pop psychology thing because it's like your job isn't to do the factual accounting of the person's life. Your job is to find the story to tell and the idea of what they represent or what they did. It's what you said very well, Olivia, which is just like, I don't want a fucking

biopic in the form of a cinematic Wikipedia entry. I want you to find a story to tell me. And this story is about children and parents and parents and children and it's like...

It's like adapting any other work. Like, if you're adapting real historical events, it's like, no, you find the angle. What's the story you want to tell

in this piece of material? Griff, you wouldn't love a little Pixar? Of course. Just a little Pixar? Do you know... Just a sprink? Do you know that

when... Well, so, like, obviously, Bale and DiCaprio Were the first choice At Sony For Steve Jobs

The first choice For Wozniak Was Mike Wazowski And his quote was too high You really Went down that runway Yeah He took off

It was like When You know In an old fashioned movie Someone shoots you The musket and misses, and then they're sort of hastily... It takes a while. I'm going to get here.

Get it back in the... All right, here we go. I'm going to shoot you again. I'll do a little behind-the-scenes here. I was worried about fucking up the name because Woz and Wazowski are so similar. I was like... If you had said Mike Wozniak...

I was like, I need to give myself some more runway to make sure I actually land this. If I said Mike Wozniak, I would have been chased out of this. I would retire. Into a puddle. Yeah. Okay. The movie ends with the scene we've already discussed.

Tim apologizing to Lisa. The computer was named after you. Of course. And then she gets to watch from backstage. She does. Something she has not done up until that point. He always gets her out of the building before that can happen. But also she leaves richer than she showed up.

Because she leaves with a dream. A dream of one day having 1,000 songs in her pocket. She also gets a printout of her painting. Of course. The whole time. The way you just see it through the light in that shot is so smart. There's no insert shot of it.

You know what it is. Danny Boyle's hand holding it. Shit, we forgot to get into it. Oh, okay. Here we go. My hand. But I think this ending is controversial, especially literally the last beats of it.

The song by the Maccabees was a really nice song. Danny Boyle picked it obviously um and him like bathed in this like heavenly light from the flash bulbs right and kind of like reaching out to her and the music soaring and people are like what's this cheesy happy ending but he's also like far from her yeah and then he turns to like come closer and then he turns back to the audience. Godlike, kind of mysterious, kind of unknowable. This is what I want to needle you on. Not needle you in a, needle's the wrong word, but I want to tease out of you.

I feel like you've made a lot of offhand references over the years when I hear you talk about this movie, both on and off mic about this movie being about like humanity trying to speak to god well or like it's like he's like a modern godlike figure in a weird way right because again it's like you can't even just be like yeah he invented the fucking light bulb you're like great i know what a light bulb is right good job by him like right you know it's like no while he was he spearheaded many important things. He's a godlike figure because it's like he became this weird icon of, like, post-religious society, right? Yeah. His fucking face is, like, iconic. You know what's one of the weirdest things?

I don't. I want you to guess. No. He dies, right? We're all talking about, like, you know, it was somewhat sudden. The book suddenly comes out so soon after. talking about like you know it was somewhat sudden right the book suddenly comes out so soon after my memory is like within three days of him dying new york city was just like papered yeah with billboards taxi cab ads subway ads his face his face like you know gone but never forgotten years

of his life whatever it was like so quick that suddenly it felt like all of new york city was like apple spending money to memorialize him. And it's like if Bill Gates died, the same thing would not happen. No, no. There would be obituaries that were long and a consideration of his legacy. But there's not a cult of personality. But we're not papering his face over the city. And also there'd be a lot of Epstein jokes.

Yeah, well. Wow. But this is what I'm saying. Jobs has this somewhat mythic figure. Yes. And this whole movie is about like trying to talk

to this godlike figure who is also this like petty, difficult man. Yeah. And like, I just love the constant,

you know, what do you call it? What's this? Tension of that. Tension. I'm losing my words. We've been recording for three hours,

right Benny? Almost. Hey, we're going to sell some ads on this? Tension event. Tension. I'm losing my words. We've been recording for three hours. Right, Benny? Almost. Hey, we're going to sell some ads on this one. Apple? Apple. Oh, my God. I didn't even think of that. I don't think they're interested.

They, like, were not. They made efforts to, like, kind of cut this movie down. Sarkin and Tim Cook were kind of beefing publicly. Yeah, they kind of had a war of words. Linux? Can we get Linux? Yeah. I'll call tech support, and I'll pitch it to them. Right. Microsoft Edge?

Tim Cook is a great example of like you've sensed the immediate shift. Yeah, no one's like, I love Tim Cook. Right. What kind of a freak loves Tim Cook? People are still in on Apple products. I think he's all right. Yeah, sure. Tim Cook, there's no thing there in the same way. Absolutely.

I mean, there's other people like Jobs who have that weird status in our society. Can't think of one. But there's not a lot. Yeah. Sure. And, well, I mean, Elon Musk, God don't bless him. Sure. But he was sort of angling for that.

He was angling for that, but the And then he made a couple crucial errors. It's just that he's a fucking idiot. Unforced errors. And then Steve Jobs, for whatever he was, he wasn't an idiot. Well, he wasn't as good a poster, if that's what you mean. Yeah, I mean, sure. Well, there's also the line in this movie of like, I don't want people to think I'm an asshole.

I just don't care what they think or whatever he says. Which is like the exact opposite of Elon Musk, which is, please like me. i want you to find me funny i think he said a little joke i think job says he's indifferent to whether or not people like him and then herzfeld says well for what it's worth i never did i don't want people to dislike me i'm indifferent to whether they just must could not care more that kind you really sure he cares what people think lol i find it so funny that you're triggered i don't care at all that's pretty good thank you i'm working on it cithifrican is kind of a hard

one um yes um but right and like then just the idea of us being like why are you like this and him being like i'm poorly made like and i don't like that either which is why i'm trying to build you perfect beautiful things why don't you like my perfect beautiful things i'm poorly made. And I don't like that either, which is why I'm trying to build you perfect, beautiful things. Why don't you like my perfect, beautiful things? I'm poorly made is like the best line in this movie. When Sorkin wrote that, he poured himself a glass of scotch and had a great wank.

Just a great one. Yes. He must have been so proud of himself. It's so good. And nothing he puts his fingers i guess he doesn't drink nothing else he does is poorly made jobs doesn't do poorly made things no but he himself can't fix it is poorly made can't fix it and he also knows it's that question what could be so wrong in me at a month right and jeff daniels is like nothing you're obsessed with

it's like it's factual it's like something i did something wrong as a one month old baby I'm poorly made And of course Jeff Daniels maybe could have Butted in with it a lot and be like It's very stressful to have a one month old baby They just couldn't handle it But no it's all part of the metaphor It's a beautiful movie

Poorly made Maybe I'll watch it again I did watch it last night And then again this morning just to make sure i didn't watching it back to back is a great experience you'll pick up on a little something new every time this was one of those movies where it had a good even with some of the pushback it had a good like sort of launch at the festivals and then they're putting out limited release i remember playing maybe only at lincoln square

here in new york maybe it was two theaters, but I feel like it opened in like one New York, one LA. Is that possible? Very possible. I just remember limited series of showtimes that opening weekend and I saw that there was like one ticket available late on Friday night and I was like, you know what? I'm just so eager to see this fucking thing

and join the discourse after I've been reading people write reviews of this for the last two months. I'm going to go see this now. And then felt pretty deflated by it at that time. But it was like jam packed, sold out and the kind of like insane per screen average opening. And people were like, well, it's going to be another hit. And then weekend two, done. It was one of those things. They expanded it very quickly, which is probably a mistake. And it's also something that I think Boyle says is a mistake. He's like, they kind of fucked it up on release, and it shouldn't have gone that quickly.

But that first weekend, people were like, oh, the excitement for this is huge. People are dying to see this fucking thing. I was like, that's not... Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. It's expansion weekend. The Martian is crushing. The per screen that first weekend?

43,000. And how many screens? Four screens. Four, screen that first weekend? 43,000. And how many screens? Four screens. Four, yeah. I think it was too near. Sorry, it's 130,000 per screen average. Yeah, it's humongous. Right.

But yeah, it's just, you know, when it goes wide, it goes to 7 million. Kind of disappointing. It goes wide to number seven below paranormal activity the ghost dimension yeah the last witch hunter not a bad movie not a bad movie a movie that's actually much like steve jobs grown better with age um but uh you know did they expand it too quickly maybe i think the public was just like ah yeah enough with this guy and not not grabbed enough by the names in the cast it is the funny thing and the reviews were like positive but not

raised for all the hand-wringing about getting this movie made and all the emails of like we can't make it for this budget we can't make with this actor it's like they were all proven right commercially all the concerns were valid yeah yeah um but if you do if you want to read a really good rave of this movie a.o scott wrote one for the times that is very very good and is like is this movie as like formally perfect as the social network no but that gives it this like humanistic edge to it that makes it like something else entirely. Like comparing the two isn't going to do anyone any favors,

but this is a great movie. Uh, talking about other, uh, film critics, the great, the great Michael Phillips, who was once,

uh, A.O. Scott's cohost on the, the last respectable version of at the movies. Yeah. Um, they had him on our, our buddy's,

uh, film spottings uh episode on the sight and sound top 10 where he was talking about his own top 10 and how he came up with it and he said this thing that stuck with me that i really liked where he was like i don't know if i have a single film on my top 10 that i think is a perfect movie but that maybe speaks to my love of films that have some power without needing to be formally perfect. Right. And there was something I appreciated of him just admitting that where he's like, I recognize perfect movies, but I'm not going to go off the criteria of the 10 most perfectly made films are the 10 best.

I'm like, I can prefer movies with flaws that somehow achieve some greater thing. Totally agree, Michael. My National Society of Film Critics colleague. Just saw it. for movies with flaws that somehow achieve some greater thing uh totally agree michael my national society film critics colleague just saw him right at the meeting um great guy yeah box office game it opened number 16 four screens okay october 9th 2015 so is this first weekend of The Martian? Second. Wow. Martian was so big. The Martian was a huge fucking movie. Did Martian do 250 domestic?

228. Okay. Pretty good. Big. Bring him home. Bring him home. And you know what? I can't stop laughing.

Of course, the funniest movie of the year. So fun. It won the Golden Globe for... Remember when you got stuck on Mars? It was pretty funny. There's like a whole poop bit. He has to make potatoes out of his fertilizer. Gotta listen to all that disco music.

Look, my TikTok, and I've tweeted about this. My TikTok has recently decided, rather than show me the work of America's darling influencers or its young babies, it showed me a lot of babies back in the day, pets, hilarious fails. I've talked about it. I only get impressionists.

Sure. You get old school impressionists. I did recently get a clip of Jimmy Stewart on The Carson Show, which was amazing. Like old Jimmy Stewart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mostly now it's just like, do you just want a

three minute clip from like a movie from the 2010s that appeals to dads and i'm like and the thing with tiktok is if you watch it they're like you likey and i'll just be like it's just captain phillips wait okay i recently and now it just shows i got like the last scene of captain phillips on t I was like, yeah. You just immediately like. Not his blood. So like Sully. Uh-huh. Spotlight.

Do you like Sully? That guy saves so many souls. Captain Phillips. Yeah. The Martian. Yeah. And I've been recently watching some Martian clips and I'm like, this is pretty good. I should rewatch the Martian.

It's like a really, it's an entertaining movie. Highly entertaining. It's so entertaining. I should re-watch The Martian. It's like a really, it's an entertaining movie. Highly entertaining. It's so entertaining. What a bug nuts cast. When you step back and you're like, Kristen Wiig. Donald Glover's in that movie.

Donald Glover, Benedict Wong. Jeff Daniels dancing on the dialogue. Exactly. He's back. Doing a little soft show. Being like, well,

I don't know if NASA would approve of that. I don't know what he's doing. I don't like. The Martian, a celebrated hit based on a bestseller directed by a good director, best picture nominee, Matt Damon being a movie star. What's not to like?

Number two at the box office in its third week, an animated comedy. We've covered it on this podcast. Covered it on this podcast. Is it Hotel Transylvania 2? Dos. The weakest, but still a strong Hotel Well you say the weakest Someone has not seen

Transformania I have not That's absolutely true I have not seen Hotel Transylvania 4 Olivia Craighead Yes My dear friend

Yes Have you seen any of the Hotel Transylvania films? Have you checked into the Hotel T? Maybe I've seen the first one Well you know where You should also see

And I was like Kind of charmed by it I got a couple other stays to recommend for you And you know what I remember Either seeing the trailer or seeing the poster For the one where they're on a cruise ship And I was like That's funny

The conceit of it I was like I'm laughing It's like high concept I was like you know what that's funny yeah the conceit of it i was like they gotta take a vacation from their vacation it's like high concept i was like you know what that's probably great you know what happens on the cruise ship what happens a lot of funny stuff what doesn't happen big puppy maybe i gotta go take a cruise oh the big puppy yeah check out hotel transylvania you can honestly jump to three i was getting no i actually think it going to be really hard to track the plot of three if you don't see two

number three at the box office clearly hoping to have been the number one movie it's new this week it's a children's action adventure fantasy film based on a classic text based on a classic text it is the definition of an absolute

fucking blank check Bouncing all the way across the world So it's not Wrinkle in Time But it's that kind of thing Were they still making like Narnias at this point? I mean who knows But it's not a Narnia Is this a first book?

It's a one book? It's a classic work Is it Pan? It's a classic work. Is it Pan? It is Pan. Joe writes Pan? Joe writes Pan. Wow.

Hugh Jackman is Blackbeard. Yes. And Garrett Hedlund is... Garrett Hedlund. Is it Hunnam or Hedlund? Yeah. Garrett Hedlund is Hot Hook. Right. What's your name?

John Hook. Me here with these two normal hands. Rooney Mara as Tiger Lily In one of the More disastrous casting decisions of recent years A musical number In which the Lost boys Sing Smells Like Teen Spirit

This movie is not real That's real It's real as a heart attack Was it for children? No. Oh, it's real as a heart attack. Yeah. Was it for children? No one knows who it was for. Like $200 million? The FBI is still trying to figure out who that movie was for.

Yeah. It made $35 million domestically. Period. Domestically. Yeah. They would have been disappointed if that were the opening. They would have been. And yet that was not the opening.

Number four at the box office. A Low-Key Charmer. The last film by this great director, but maybe she's got another movie coming soon. Okay, so she's not retired. It is called The Intern. It's called The Intern. What if Robert De Niro was an intern? Yeah.

We've all heard of interns. Sure. Got it. What if? Zach Perlman. Yeah, Zach Perlman. Adam Devine. The guy who directed Big Time Adolescence. Right. We've all heard of interns Sure Got it What if Zach Roman Zach Roman The guy who directed Big Time Adolescence Right

Now what if the intern was old Wait wait Think about that guys What do you mean Like 70 Like retired Like retired Like bored in retirement

Like Linda Lavin is trying to fuck him in the middle of Park Slope Too old to learn new tricks What are you talking about No no no no Wait is he going to teach Wait is he going to teach the busy CEO of this company any lifelines Fuck him in the middle of Park Slope. Too old to learn new tricks. What are you talking about? No, no, no, no. Wait, is he going to teach the busy CEO of this company any life lessons? I think so. I think so. Is he going to maybe not put his thumb on the scale hard enough for divorce your fucking

cock husband? The worst husband in the history of movies. Who is Anders Holm? Anders Holm. Anders Holm. The heck? Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Look, mistakes were made in the mid-2000s i have i have faith that nancy will get this movie made starring say with me michael fassbender michael f not someone who you felt was on the runway for romantic comedy michael fassbender in a nancy myers movie is like something that was made in a lab just for me my understanding of this project is, it sounds a little America's Sweethearts-y, where Fassbender and Cruise would be the temperamental, difficult, self-serious movie stars in the movie being made by Owen Wilson and Scarlett Johansson, who would actually be the proper romantic. Yes, and they are Nancy. Michael Fassbender is not a Charles Shire type. Yeah, I was going to say, and they're the Nancy and Charles Shire.

Right, right, right. Owen Wilson more of a Charles Shire type. Yes. I don't know, man. It's like, sign me up. Charles Shire. Right. Owen Wilson more of a Charles Shire type. Yes. I don't know, man. It's like, sign me up. That sounds awesome. It's kind of wild. Wilson.

Well, I guess Wilson, We've been recording for three hours. What? No, Wilson, Weatherspoon are both in Inherent Vice, but not in scenes together. But it feels like, oh, well,

fucking how do you know? Yes. How do you know? I'm sorry. Why am I saying Weatherspoon? I'm combining home again. Wilson and Johansson, have they ever done anything together? What am I talking about?

Are they both Wes Anderson? Is she a Wes Anderson person? We've been in here so long that my brain has fried. I don't know. I can't answer that question for you. My brain's fried. They're both in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, but in different places. Oh, I forgot that he's in the...

Okay. Okay, come on. We gotta fix the timeline. Have you seen that interview? Whatever late night talk show it was. Griffin, this better be good. It's so funny. It's so funny. Like the Martian bit? It's so funny. I don't know.

Oh, God. It's on Kimmel or whatever. They said, how do you feel when they call you and ask you to be in the Marvel universe? Great. Kimmel Feige called me and talked about this character. And I said, how do you feel when they call you and ask you to be in the Marvel Universe? And you go, great. Kevin Feige called me. He talked about this character. And I said, what's his powers? He went, well, he's a really good listener. Okay.

Was it worth it? Ben is so mad. Ben is standing up. Number five at the box office. Going to the bathroom? Yep. Is a crime drama. Okay.

From a blank check director we have yet to cover. Okay. A great film in my opinion. Huh. Very dark. Very dark. Very dark. It's not Killing Them Softly?

No. I love that movie. That's a dark movie. We're never doing him though. Well, he made a mistake. He made a whoopsie. He made a three hour whoopsie. Did you see blonde of course not i respect myself yeah olivia you do respect i i had too many people texting me being like i couldn't get through blonde or like telling me about what

happened to blonde and i was like why would i waste my time i don't have so much precious time on this earth in a theater it's It's all I have, Vang. Okay, wait. Blank Check Filmmaker, Incredibly Dark Crime Film, 2015. It's a flop? No, kind of a low-key hit. What's the sequel? Sicario?

Sicario. Got it. Do you like Sicario? Here's a fun fact about me. I saw Sicario in Paris. Wow. Ooh la la. Ooh la la, indeed.

Kind of too late into my semester abroad did I realize I could go to the movies. It's the best thing to do in Paris. The number one best thing to do in Paris. They'll give you an English movie, French subtitles. French subtitles or they'll, you know, it's great. English movie. French subtitles. French subtitles or they'll, you know, it's great.

Sicario is hard though because when they're speaking Spanish in Sicario, the subtitles are in French. Oh, you gotta just, yeah, try and block your French. Yeah, that's kind of I was like, oh, I can kind of figure this out. Also in the top ten, The Scorch. We were in The Scorch. The Scorch Trials. Is that the Maze Runner sequel? Yes, The Maze Runner colon The Scorch Trials.

That's two? Two. That's the one where Dylan O'Brien almost died. No, that's Death Cure. Oh, okay. Which is three. They found the cure for death. It was a long production hiatus.

Number seven is The Walk, also expanding this weekend. Welcome to New York City. Number eight, Black Mass. God. There's a lot of early Oscar season wipeouts. That's the definition of a fucking Wikipedia entry movie for me.

Is that the Whitey Bulger? What's the matter with you? I'm Whitey Bulger. Number nine, Everest. Kind of another, not even a flop, but like Oscar whiff, but I like that movie. I still need to see it. Never seen it. And number 10, The Visit. M. Night Shyamalan's low-key comeback.

A lot of Blank Check movies in there. Good time for me. I don't remember what was going on. I don't either. It's a masterpiece. for me I don't remember what was going on I don't either because there's so many blind trick movies it's a masterpiece I feel like it's the kind of movie

that Boyle doesn't get enough credit for sure because it becomes the Sorkin movie yeah and obviously

the Sorkin script is very important but I think it's a beautifully made film I think it's a very great meeting of the minds for two guys

who are kind of like maximalists in like different ways. Yes. Absolutely. And they like really meet and gel in a great way.

And I would love it if Sorkin would let other people direct his stuff again. We really need it. There are a lot of guys who could do it. It's not him.

But like get Soderbergh in there. What's your problem? Imagine that. Imagine. Imagine. That would in there. What's your problem? Imagine that. Imagine. That would be great. That's what he needs. Good question.

Who do I want to see tackle a Sorkin script? Truly, anyone. Anyone. I'll do it. I'll scratch one director off the list. Who's that? Aaron Sorkin. Oh.

Does not seem to have a way With the material Next week After these strange post-Oscar years Danny Boyle retreats To a sequel The one that everyone's demanded Begged him to do for 20 years

T2 Trainspot And then they say, sorry, I was Washing my hair that day That's what's next week. Take us out, please. Griffin Newman. Olivia Craig. Oh, we love her.

Five-timer. Five-timer. Five-timer. Thank you so much for having me. I am exhausted now. I feel like we all kind of ran a marathon together. Wouldn't have it any other way. Imagine how much more difficult it would have been with the treadmills.

With the goddamn treadmills. If we had done this on treadmills, it would have been an hour and a half, which I actually think people would be really mad about. Yeah, it would have sped us up because we would have been out of breath. Yeah. We would have been heaving. Imagine us being like, and Lisa is huffing and puffing about local integrated systems. Anything you want to plug, Olivia? No.

Great. Thank you all for listening, Olivia? No. Great. Thank you all for listening. Olivia's the best. Follow her on things. Or leave her alone. Or leave me alone. Yeah. We had a great dinner at Joe Jr.

The other. Okay. Shut the fuck up. We had burgers. This is not. I'm trying to end the show over here. David gave me some really good gossip. About what?

About who? We'll talk about it later. You're going to tell me off, Mike. I can't remember what it was, but it better look good. You clearly remember. Okay, so we're finishing this fucking episode. Oh, I remember what it was and it was good. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media.

Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song. Joe Bowen and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. J.J. Birch for our research. David is going to sleep. Don't wake daddy, folks, over here in the corner putting the sleeping cap over his head. Don't get too rested. We got to record ads.

All right. Alex Barron, A.J. McKeon for our editing. David, his eyes have turned into flames. Go to BlankCheckPod.com for links to some real nerdy shit, including our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, where we do franchise commentaries like the Men in Black films. We're also doing the Boyle Olympic Ceremony, as we talked about. I think that will have already dropped.

Bye. Now tune in next week for T2, Trainspotting 2, Judgment Day. And as always, I'm up to 236 diamonds. Thank you for calling the Burger Report hotline. 802-8-BURGER. Please leave a message with your FAMO type of burger and location, and we will try to put it on the podcast if we can. That's 802-8-BURGER.

Hey, Griffin and David. A couple years ago, I was walking to my friend's apartment, and I got a text that said to look into Whitman's in New York on 9th Street. Whitman's in New York on like 9th Street and they said look into the window and tell us who that man is eating a burger because we know he's famous but we don't know who it is so I walk by I look in and I saw Danny Boyle same director of Slumdog Millionaire eating a burger