Blank Check with Griffin & David - Strange Days with Emily Yoshida

Episode Date: October 15, 2017

Emily Yoshida (Vulture) returns this week to discuss 1995’s neo-noir, Strange Days. But why is Kathryn Bigelow so hardcore? Was Bono a potential candidate for a role in this film? When was Emily’s mother on Wheel of Fortune? Together they discuss Ray Fiennes, Angela Bassett and Juliette Lewis careers, the future of reality television, cage raves and SQUID discs. This episode is sponsored by Mack Weldon.

You know how I know it's the end of the world? Everything's already been done. Every kind of music's been tried. Every kind of government's been tried. Every kind of government's been tried. Every fucking hairstyle, bubblegum flavors, you know, breakfast cereal. What are we going to do? How are we going to make another thousand years? I'm telling you, man.

It's podcast. I think that's true. I think he was right. Right? A pretty prescient opening. Yeah. Hello, everybody. My name is Griffin.

I'm David Sims. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. We are hashtag the two friends, and this is a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their career and then are granted a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce. Baby.

This is a bouncer. This is a bouncer. And this is also a different kind of blank check than we've ever dealt with before sure this is someone kind of coming in as like uh uh lux alptrom in our point break episode coined a new term for us the the sort of uh guarantor uh the movie that that gives you oh yeah the cachet right right right right right but this is a weird like blank check team up it is yes one person is sort of cutting a little bit of his blank check right to someone else who had like earned a partial blank check

it's a weird it's a weird set of circumstances making this movie but this check bounces. I would say it's a strange set of circumstances. Uh-huh. This is a main series about the films of Catherine Bigelow.

It's called Pod 19 The Widowcaster and today we're talking about the movie that almost completely ended her career. Yeah.

It is called Strange Days. Mm-hmm. Strange Days. It's called Strange Days. Thank you for the correction. Man, do I have egg on my face. Thank you for the correction. Unnamed guest.

Yep. The movie is called Strange Days, and boy, do we have a guest today. She is, of course, the mother of blankies. That is true. Hello, my children. Her number one title. She's also a film critic for Vulture. That's right.

Nymag. Three times on blank check. Three different jobs. That's right. You keep bouncing from job to job. The New York media world has been good to me, baby. Well, it's been four at this point, hasn't it? Yeah, sure. Tell her how many jobs she's had. No, no, no, no, baby. Well, it's been four at this point, hasn't it? Yeah, sure.

Tell her how many jobs she's had. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, four blank checks. Yeah, okay. So two with one job, one with another one, and then this one. That's right. Yeah, sure. That's impressive, though.

Most of our guests, they come on. We have our favorite guests or repeat guests, and they come on, and we have to list the same fucking credits over and over again. They keep us on our toes. Yeah. No, I'm like Lenny Nero. I've gone from being a cop

in one life to, I don't know. And you got a lot of fake Rolexes. Yeah. A lot of hats. This is also your first solo episode. It's your first episode. Yeah, that's true. You're usually on our super-sized Yeah. Well, I really appreciate that you guys think that

i'm worthy you think that i can you know hold an episode up on my own because i've really been working so hard for so long to deserve such a position so thank you guys from the bottom of my heart it was never an issue of that okay no one looks at brad pitt and goes maybe he's not a leading man because he's playing third fiddle in Ocean's Eleven. It's saying, let's add even more juice to this mix. Do you know what I'm saying? We were saying, let's make some episodes blockbusters. Let's throw a little Emily Ashina

in the mix. I appreciate it. Hopefully this one doesn't bounce. Impossible. Impossible for this episode to bounce. This is one of your favorite movies? It became my favorite movie about,

or one of my favorite movies about three months ago when I saw it for the first time. Okay. I saw this film at MoMA. They were doing a series of some, I think it was called, the series was called Future Imperfect, and they were showing a lot of fantastic movies that I love, and that was one where I was like,

well, I've never seen that before, and this seems like a unique opportunity to get to see it on the big screen, a film print, nonetheless, because now I think the only way you can see it is legally is by buying like a used DVD. Yeah, or like buying like a German Blu-ray. It's like, it's impossible. Yeah, it's impossible. This is one of several films

in the series that I feel like is impossible to see it's fucking driving me insane yeah there's two

that are literally out of print right and so coincidental it's the first time you've done a female director it's true

and you can't watch a movie I know yeah but yeah I saw this at MoMA you know

by myself and about halfway through and it's a long movie there's a halfway through. And it's a long movie. There's a lot of movie here. It's a long movie. But I was like, I am watching one of my favorite movies right now. It was like a really great feeling.

So you like dystopian future movies in general. That's one of your. And I like specifically dystopian future movies set in future versions of LA. Or like future past versions, I guess, in this case. Yeah. I mean, this movie does ask a big question, which is what if in the future the whole world was LA? Like, I know this movie only takes place in LA.

We only really see LA represented, but LA is presented to be such a hellhole and the state of the world is presented to be so bad that I just assume, transitive property, what's ruined the world is that everything's become LA. Yeah. Sure. But I do like that this movie

is not like 1999. You know, America is now blah, blah, blah. Like, there's no explanation of anything going on. We're just in LA. It's very municipal dystopia. Yeah.

I mean, this movie's basically set on two blocks. Yeah. Right? Well, they go to the valley at one point. That's right. That's true.

I think that's where my favorite club in the world is, is in the valley, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah. Yeah. But it is, this movie just kind of says like, well, this is where we were going. Like there wasn't like an inciting incident. Sure. Yeah.

There wasn't a giant like shift of like, from here on out, all blanks will be blank. Mm, blanks. You know? It's just kind of like, things kept getting bad. Yeah, it just is like an economy thing. There's a little bit of the classic exposition on a Radio Colin show about

the economy's in the toilet and kids are killing kids. There's nothing particularly unique there. I mean, look, let's say it. It's economic anxiety. This movie's about economic anxiety. That's the only thing that went wrong. That's the only problem in society is economic anxiety. And if you want to say it's anything else, you're wrong.

People just are stressed out about money. Yep. Especially cops. Especially cops. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Sometimes people accuse my grandmother of being economically anxious.

And I find that offensive because it's just, you have to understand she comes from a more economically anxious time. I get your joke. She's not actually, like actually. Your grandmother is not alive. Considering her age, this one is.

Oh, okay, this one is, okay. This one is. All right, all right. One of them, I'm throwing onto the. Seriously. Under the train tracks for the sake of this joke.

Well, I have to say that I really hope that people will listen to this episode. Because I haven't listened to it. As of this recording, you guys have put out one. Two now. Oh, yeah, two. But I haven't seen either of those movies. Sure. You can watch The Loveless.

It's on Amazon. I know. I'm going to watch that one. But Near Dark is also another one that's very difficult to watch. Very difficult. Near Dark is also another one that's very difficult to watch. Very difficult. Near Dark's a tough one. And so I haven't listened to them because I want to watch the movies first. But anyway, I hope everybody listens to this podcast anyway, even if they haven't seen

Strange Days. I mean, look, if we're being completely candid, this miniseries is like a big test of our list. It is. It is. You guys are going to show up. We're doing movies you can't watch. Right.

Or it's hard to watch. Not that this is the point. We wanted to talk about Catherine Bigelow's movies, but this miniseries also functions as this test of like how many people are actually watching the movies in advance, in preparation, if it's a movie they haven't seen, how many people are listening even if they haven't seen the movie, and how many people totally check out

if it's something they cannot watch easily. Yeah. I mean. But that's why we needed a superstar like you. Yeah. We decided to do Bigelow. We said we gotta bring in the mother of blankies.

Of course. Is this my first one of like a real bouncer? No, Speed Race is a bouncer. Speed Race is a bouncer. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Speed Race should bounce like hell.

Right. Right. And then the other two episodes you've been on are the two most successful movies of all time. Yeah. Literally one in, Literally one in three.

I only work in extremes. Well, we only kind of work in extremes too. Yeah. Mostly. Strange Days. Yes. So, post Point Break, which is for Fox, and was a solid success, and a movie that was very well liked. Yes.

She's got some heat on her. She's got heat. But also her ex-hobby is now the most powerful filmmaker on the planet. Both of these things are true. So James Cameron wrote this movie in 1986. Not this movie that we watch, but like wrote Strange Days. Right. He wrote a script. By his account, he wrote a 90 wrote Strange Days. Right. He wrote.

He wrote a script. By his account, he wrote a 90 page treatment. Sure. He wrote a very long treatment. He writes these 90 page treatments that are like novels. And he did this for Spider-Man. You can read his like fucking 90 page Spider-Man. Yeah, which is all about how he's like a gooey teenager who's jizzing all over New York City, basically. It's very like.

Really? Yes, it's very much about puberty. I think Mary Jane fucks Doc Ock, too. I believe that's like a plot point is that it's like a love triangle thing. I mean, would that have been Cameron's most sexual movie? A hundred percent. That's true. I mean, and I'm

not sure I want to see Cameron's most sexual movie because Cameron's most sexual movie is probably Avatar. Right. I mean, you know, they do as we mentioned on the Titanic episode, they do invent having sex in a car in Titanic. Oh, that's true. Which Emily noticed. I saw somebody else actually make

that claim, so I was like, I wondered if I had... Stole it from them? Well, no. I don't remember if that person said it before me or no. But I do stand by that as being my own theory. Yep. He was also going to do an X-Men movie. Sure.

I mean, you say going to. I mean, he was in the mix, or, like, he thought about it, right? But he also wrote, like, a 90-page treatment for this. Yeah. They announced at one point that he was going to do X-Men and Spider-Man. I think maybe he announced Spider-Man first, and then he left Spider-Man for X-Men or the other way around. Sure.

But he has this thing. When he has an idea for a movie, he writes these like, these treatments. Quasi screenplays. That are like longer than, or as long as the script would conceivably be, where he's just describing in novelistic terms what's basically happening and the vibe of the thing.

And so he writes one of these. It's like a junior novelization of Strange Days. Of course, yes. Written by Orson Scott Card. No, I don't know. He writes one of these for Strange Days and leaves it on a shelf. No, he takes it to Catherine Bigelow,

who I'm not sure at what point in their relationship this was, but they may have been married at the time. She likes the idea. They talk the idea out, right? Right. And his basic idea, the main thing he was going for, I think, was A, the squid technology,

and B, he liked the dynamic of three people on the verge of a new millennium and it's a woman in love with a man helping him find the woman he loves yeah they like that emotional triangle which feels very cameron-y oh yeah like that's a real cameron like emotional core kind of setup which then bigelow brought a lot of shit to. All true. Yeah. So Cameron takes this they turn whatever

their dialogue turns into this thing. He says it was like a big unwieldy novel. He takes it to Jay Cox who is a practiced screenwriter

he usually collaborates with Martin Scorsese he wrote The Age of Innocence I'm sorry Marty Scorchese Marty Scorchese he wrote Age of Innocence he wrote Gangs of Newchese Marty Scorchese he wrote Age of Innocence

he wrote Gangs of New York he wrote Silence and he turns it into a script and they like this script so this script is like hanging out and then in 92

there's the Rodney King trial I mean there's the Rodney King beating and the LA Riots and the Lorena Bobbitt trial and stuff like that and Catherine Bigelow

is like I want to weave all this into the script right she said I think she said that the LA riots and the Lorena Bobbitt trial and stuff like that. And Catherine Bigelow is like, I want to like, I got to weave all this stuff. Right. Right. She said, I think she said that a lot of it got fleshed out when she was doing like cleanup efforts after the riots or something.

She's spending a lot of time in South LA. I was involved in the downtown cleanup. You're right. And I was very moved by that experience. You get a palpable sense of the anger and frustration and economic disparity in which we live she wanted to make a movie about that feeling that was hanging in the air at that time which is not too dissimilar from the feeling that i think is hanging in the air right now

culturally like cyclically right there was a thing like in early 90s la that is very much what's happening in the entire world right now also tupacupac was around. Sure. It was a simpler time. And I think at this point, she decides that Maze has to be an African-American character. Sure. And she wants to make a movie

about female victimization and racial oppression, is what she says in this interview. So she starts taking what probably was a kind of clean, straightforward Cameron idea. Which then you imagine she worked more of her own themes into it when they developed it further. And now she's saying, like, this is my vehicle to say everything I want to say about the state of the world today. Yes. Or at the very least the state of Los Angeles.

So he has this crazy light storm. James Cameron makes T2. He gets this crazy deal. It's $500 million? Sure, but there's a big deal where he gets to split the True Life's funding with another movie, essentially. So True Life costs more, but this movie is first budgeted at $30 million.

I think it ends up costing like $42 million. I think the deal was they said you can split $100 million between True Lies and Strange Days. And they thought it was going to be $70 and $30. And then True Lies ended up being the most expensive movie ever made. This is true. It cost like $115? I can look

it up. $100 something. $100 to $120 million. Right. Like unknown. And then Strange Days is supposed to cost 30 end up costing like 45. So they went way over on these two movies. And True Lies worked for them

and this did not and she didn't get to make a movie for five years. Did you hear about the original cast that they had in mind? No. Andy Garcia

was going to have the lead role. Oh, I think I heard that. Yeah. Okay. Angela Bassett was always their sort of first pick for Mace. And then they wanted Bono to play the Michael Wincott role. Oh, right.

Of the dirty boyfriend who's like a rock producer, which I think would have been tremendous. That would have been fascinating. I think he would have been really good. And that's Bono just to you know that's like post Octant Baby pre All You Can't Leave Behind when Bono's like a real titanic fool

like and he's sort of he's sort of at first it was like a character he was doing and then like the character seemed to have you know disappeared and you were like I think Bono might just be an idiot right now that was that thing they did on the tour where he played like Satan in videos. Yeah, the Zoo TV

tour where he would like have you ever, I mean I like you too so I've watched videos. I've watched a lot of the Zoo TV stuff. But you know where he had his characters like the fly was the one with the wraparound sunglasses and then he would do this devil character called Macfisto which has an English accent which is fucking

embarrassing. It's so bad. He goes down and he's like, hello? And you're like, oh my god, I can't believe this was the most successful rock tour ever. He turned an international tour into his mad TV reel. Yeah, it really was an

extended multi-million dollar mad TV reel. But it is actually cool. Zoo TV, that's when he would order like from the stage and he would like call the white house and be like ah it's the future calling or whatever you know and they but stuff like that you know yeah so it was like man tv half jerky boys yeah but i mean no one had ever done shit like that in like a stadium tour. It was weird. He was like the 90s. Pop.

It was bad talking head shit. I guess, right? How would you describe it? He's sort of making fun of consumerism, but I don't know if you have an angle on this, Bono. How would you describe producer Ben? Ben Dusser. You were Ben. Poet laureate.

The Haas. Mr. Positive. The peeper if i the tiebreaker i meet lover well fart detective okay fuck master yeah very well rehearsed no they're just improv and i just you're not professor crisp no i could i would just you are the poet laureate yeah yeah so David's answer or finest film god damn it Jesus just do it already come on

no Ben Morgan's sorry no it's fine you've graduated to certain titles over the course of different miniseries such as Kylo

Ben Proust or Ben Kenobi Ben Night Shyamalan Ben Say Save Anything Ailey Ben's with the dollar sign Warhaz

and Purdue or Bane yeah so Bono your take on Bono in the 90s. It's sort of talking heads, I guess, because it's got that kind of like... Like, we are all robots living in our boxes. Right, and sort of world music-y kind of thing, too, going on there.

But man, I don't know. It's just a whole other level of corny. It's very corny. It's a cornier... I don't even know how to really relate whole other level of corny. It's very corny. It's a cornier. I don't even know how to really just like relate to it. McPhee-so is wild, man. I love it though. I love Octane Baby.

I love you too. That's a big thing though. It's so embarrassing. Bono, not incredibly funny. Like Talking Heads were a funny band. Right. You don't think of Bono as like a famed joker who is great at not taking himself seriously yeah I think there's no

like sharpness or rightness there I wouldn't say he's the one who like comes out on stage and is like let's talk about Nicaragua you know like he takes himself very serious and talking heads when they did sort of comical things the the masterstroke was how much they underplayed

it yeah like David Byrne's blankness sold a lot of right whereas sort of comical things, the masterstroke was how much they underplayed it. Yeah. Like David Byrne's blankness sold a lot of... Right. Whereas Bono does everything full tilt. Bono is not good at understatement. Right. So anyway, he's not in this movie. He's not. Bono is a person who's not in this movie.

Eventually, Catherine Bigelow sees Schindler's List and she's like, break me off a piece of this Ralph Fiennes because he's fucking awesome. Which is fascinating though because this role is written very much as an Andy Garcia 90s archetype. Definitely. He is a leather jacket wearing sweaty American fairy

who's kind of like I'm trying what can I tell you? My take is he's Nicolas Cage in Snake Eyes, but just like a little chiller, but only a little chiller. But Garcia was really good at being like a little too slick,

but still likable. Yeah. A little greasy, but still compelling. Yeah, still reads as a protagonist on screen. I love Andy Garcia. I do too. In the early 90s. I mean, I mean, I love him now.

I don't mean to beef with poor Andy Garcia these days early 90s. I mean, I love him now. I don't mean to beef with poor Andy Garcia these days. But that's so weird that it was Schindler's List was the thing. The point I'm making is because this is written as a Garcia type and then to see Schindler's List and be like, that's my man. We now know that Ralph Fiennes is like

one of the best screen actors in history. Yes, he's a chameleon. And can do anything. But if you haven't seen him do a ton of work and then you see him Very, very, yes, he's a chameleon. And can do anything. In a weird sort of a way. But if you haven't seen him do a ton of work, and then you see him play a very clean-cut, humorless Nazi, to, like, chilling effect. No, but there is humor to that performance.

I think that performance is so extraordinary. I also think he's weirdly charming, like, even though he's also really frightening. Like, that's why it's so good. What do you think of Ralph Fiennes? Emily. In this movie? Sure, but in general. In both. I mean, great. Love Ralph Fiennes Emily in this movie sure but in general in both

I mean great love Ralph Fiennes love Ralph I mean I was he was somebody even before I think I had seen any film that he was in

he was somebody that my mom really liked and like had a crush on sure he had his big like mom crush 90s yeah he was a masterpiece

theater type even if he wasn't a masterpiece theater type and you know I mean I don't know. Yeah, I like him. Why not? Ray Fiennes, great actor. In between this and Schindler's List, he had just made Quiz Show, which he's excellent in.

He's so good in that. Yeah, that was right before. That was the year before. That's 94. So in Schindler's List, he plays a Nazi, right? Right. And a really, like, top of the line Nazi. This guy is a Nazi.

One of the best Nazis. In Quiz Show. No Chris Cantwell, this guy. Sure, sure. In Quiz Show, he's playing like these sort of ultimate wasps. He's playing like this very preppy professor type who's like, the whole point of him

is that he's very like appealing in a broad way but that's why they fixed the sure both quiz show and schindler's list he's essentially playing like very sharp knives square jawed you know he's like very clean cut composed tightly um but what what i like about uh quiz show is that he's really he's holding on by a thread like you know like even though he looks like that he's he's really nervous about a thread. Yes. Even though he looks like that, he's really nervous about letting his dad down because his dad's... Anyway. And then after Strange Days,

he makes The English Patient. So in the 90s... He's on a track. I think he's having a great run. And then he kind of runs into a wall for a little while. Right. Because it's like The Avengers,

Sunshine. I do think he's one of the best screen actors of all time. I think he's a great actor. That 90s run, it was like, oh, he's really think he's a great actor that 90s run it was like oh he's really good at doing this thing like by and large it was like okay he's got his mode that he's really good in I'm never gonna you know

discount that but I don't find it very exciting but like his weird like 10 years ago when he sort of reinvents himself as a character actor and now he's just been like zagging all over the place things like in Bruges and right you're like oh and Grand Budapest and

what was the other thing? I think he's really good in the Bond movies. You know what he's great in? What? Another Catherine Bigelow movie. Hurt Locker. The Hurt Locker. He rules in. Which he is like sort of undersung in. He's great in that movie. I think he's weirdly sort of gotten freed up as an actor as he's become more of a supporting player

and even when he plays lead roles now they tend to be more character right which like he doesn't have to be he doesn't have to nothing it relies less on his face and his physique i think now well bigger splash but not in a way where he has to be like a sculpture or something no which used to be the most beautiful man he used to be yeah yeah he man. He used to be, yeah. He's quite beautiful. And like still, there was a stillness to him. Yes. Which is obviously like, this is an outlier for that. And he just has that

like cut glass accent that he deploys so well in things like Schindler's List and The English Patient. But in this, he's like, haha, I'm Lenny Benito over here. I was watching this like on my laptop and David David Reese, my roommate. Big fan.

Pass to future guests. Host of Tar Talk. He walked by and he hasn't seen this film, so he didn't know. I think David might get a kick out of this film. I don't know. I don't know. I was like, you might have to watch it. It's a little grody for him.

It's pretty, yeah. It's got a pretty rude toot, this film. But he walked by, there was a scene, I think it was like the scene in the bar where he's pitching the one guy on the squig technology and he's like, is that Bradley Cooper? I think that tells you everything about this. He is kind of doing like limitless Bradley Cooper.

Yeah, Cooper could do this right now. Yeah, totally. I mean, maybe not quite as well that would be who you would get that's who you would get but she got Ralph Fiennes she got Angela Bassett

who is now only a couple years removed from her Oscar nomination for what's left to do with it yeah that was 92 91

I think it's 92 let me look up Angela yeah 93 93 so very yeah right off and everyone thought she was gonna be a huge star

and it never totally happened. Which is a bummer. A massive bummer. She's fucking unbelievable. I mean, but she's the best. She remains the best. And she continues working. If she shows up, she's always good.

She still has a career. It just felt like she was going to kind of become like one of the great leading ladies. Can I say a couple more? I mean, Hustle got her group back. Yes. That's a good move. I don't want to obsess over this,

but I just want to plant a couple more little quick things about Ralph Fiennes, if I can very quickly do so. One, I think this performance was the outlier in the 90s that seemed odd, and now in retrospect this is clearly what he was wishing to do.

The decoder ring. Not just be the straight cut guys. I agree with that. And I also think now I find his straight cut performance is more interesting because it's clear that that was more of a performance. At the time, I felt like, I guess this is his type. He's emoting these roles well. But that feels as much a character as the later stuff he does. Right. But the other thing that's interesting to me is he seemed, because of his very crisp diction and his good posture and his nice face and everything,

like one of these classically trained, just like very technical British theater actors, right? And Wes Anderson said that he hired him for Grand Budapest because he was like very technical movie, a lot of words, I just wanted to hit his marks, and he got to set, and Bray Fiennes is like a crazy method actor. Sure. So he's just...

That he's like not performative, and that he had like a real difficult time because in Grand Budapest when there would be voiceover he would make the actors hold still for like 30 seconds in the

middle of the shot where he would then place the voiceover later and Ray Fiennes would like flip out and be like I can't just be doing nothing for 10 seconds.

My character is living. Wow. Team Rafe honestly. My character is living. I know because Wes Anderson sounds like a pain in the ass no that's so annoying if you're an actual actor and you're trying to do a good job and he's like no I've got to do something tweet like hang on a second Wes Anderson is his right yeah you know but I also think one of the reasons that movie like that movie I is the Wes

Anderson movie that I really love yeah and I'm not that fond of him. I honestly think that... Guys, Isle of Dogs though. I'm so excited. Isle of Dogs though. You're so excited. I'm so, so excited. I am not excited for that movie.

Oh, I'm sorry. You don't like movies about dogs that make trash planets? I mean, I like that. No, honestly, no. I'm so excited. What I was going to say though is Grand Budapest, which I think is maybe his best movie, I feel like is elevated by Ray Fiennes because Ray Fiennes probably pushed him in that kind of way. Maybe.

Because you watch those scenes and Ray Fiennes is doing shit. Like, Ray Fiennes isn't just being like, I'm not going to fucking stand here like a doll. Yeah. Juliette Lewis. Yes. Who is riding really high at this moment it's true i mean you think about the fact that juliet lewis at age uh whatever like 21 is an oscar nominee right and then she's in husbands and wives she's in what's eating gilbert grape she's in california

she's in natural born killer so it's like culturally very tapped in but without letting go of her inherent juliet lewisness you know it's like this is my star persona yeah i again grody like i'm a grody star oh yeah yeah and it's also a complete 90s it's the early 90s it's a grungy time represented something but she's also a complete dead end like there has never been a movie star like juliet lewis before her or after her like she's this total one-off in terms of her persona juliet nobody nobody i mean uh because even like your kristen stewart's are are not like in vibe it's more like in sort of like and kristen stewart is like i you know even though she kind of i guess it could be argued that she does the same performance in every movie but she is acting like she is really acting this is jay jay law but like a like jay law is like a nicer version yeah if jay law was grodier instead of just being like like you lol like

julia lewis you know for for anything you want to say about her she i don't think ever made an effort to be like, I'm just liking you. Yeah, no, right. She's like some girl who hasn't washed her hair who's, like, smoking behind the 7-Eleven. Like, that's who she is, you know? Yeah, certainly that's her star persona.

I think everyone we're saying has, like, a bit of Julia Lewis, but I think there's, like, some jambalaya of what she represented. And let's also mention she was dating Brad Pitt at the time. Like, she was dating the hunkiest guy in Hollywood and they hire her partly because she can sing or perform didn't want to lip sync the songs she's performing PJ Harvey songs

up there including Rhythm Me which is like the sort of definitive early PJ Harvey song that dates this movie in a weird way for a science fiction movie right it does

it does but it's kind of great and then for the fourth lead she reaches into the barrel and gets out one of her favorite actors who's in Blue Steel he's in Point Break

in small roles in both but Blue Steel has first film performance ever correct she's the man she's the woman who put that man on the map and then she puts that wig on

the man. The man being Tom Sizemore. Yeah, she sized him up. Yeah. Who is just another like king of Hollywood. Grody. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and this movie is his masterpiece. That wig is his masterpiece. I was trying to like

I was almost mad when the wig got pulled off and I was like no, I wanted that to be his hair. I was talking to like I was almost mad when the wig got pulled off and I was like no I wanted that to be his hair. I was talking to my friend Hawken last night about Tom Sizemore just because I've seen three Tom Sizemore movies in the last week now. Because he keeps fucking popping up and he's all over Twin Peaks which he

is wild in. There's this scene he does. Have you? I don't think I've gone to Sizemore yet. I'm woefully behind. There's this scene he does. Have you? I don't think I've gone to Sizemore yet. Oh, my God. I'm woefully behind. Yeah, there's this scene he does that is insane. It's like one of the greatest pieces of TV acting I've ever seen. Anyway, carry on. I was offering Tom Sizemore as a counterpoint to Robert Downey Jr.

How in the 90s, both of them were like, these are these immensely talented, like naturally gifted actors. Very natural actors. And they can't get out of their own way. Sure, sure, sure. They cannot get out of their own way. Yeah, Tom Sizemore

could not get out of his own way. There's no doubt. The difference was with Robert Downey Jr., it always felt like he was like a victim where it's like,

oh God, he's like, he can't defeat these demons. And with Tom Sizemore, you're like, yeah, it makes sense. That guy's a drug addict. Like not to be reductive, but you watch him

and you're like, yeah, that's like his entire star quality was the fact that he looked like a guy who just crawled out of the gutter you know

sure I mean right no one's surprised to learn that Tom Sizemore has he has a sheen you want him to get his shit together but also his sheen

is a guy who can't get his shit together in this movie he plays Max Peltier sure is that how you put it I don't even remember hearing his last name in the movie.

He's Max. Hey, Max. He's a PI, I guess. But he's sort of like a former LAPD guy. It's hard to track everyone. Everyone is sort of old. They used to work together, I think. Yeah.

Is that? Yeah. They used to work together. Now he's a PI. And Lenny Nero, who's Ralph Fiennes' character, is a club owner. Owner? Operator? Wait, what?

Doesn't he sort of run that club? I can't even. No. No, he doesn't. No. He's just a squid dealer? That's all he does? He's just a squid dealer.

Oh, God. Lenny, get it together, man. But his car is pretty nice. Yeah. Well, yeah. And then he's got a friend. His apartment is terrible. But he's got a great car.

Everyone's apartment in this is so bad. Yeah, very LA. I do. I watch this movie, and I'm like, this is how I feel every time I step off the plane at LA. Like, this is what I see. My They Live glasses show me this version of LA. I'm like, this is what everyone's suppressing. The first time I ever went to LA was in like 1997.

My mother was on We Live Fortune. So I went with her. Really? Wow. Yeah. Or was it 97 or was it 95? I can't remember. I can't tell you when your mother was on We Live Fortune.

Sorry. Oh, yeah. No, it was 97. Did she win? She won some money. She didn't win the whole thing. But that, I mean, it was only a couple years later. But like that, I remember going to Hollywood Boulevard.

It was still really, really grody. And that was like always my memory of LA. It was just like this kind of icky feeling. There wasn't a mall there yet. There wasn't anything for like a child to do besides like get screen printed t-shirts, secret t-shirts or whatever. Did you get a screen printedprinted T-shirt? I think I did.

I don't remember what I got. I don't know. I was very excited by all of it. It was very electrifyingly grody. Yeah. And so is LA... I don't know LA very well. I'm always very excited when I'm in LA

because it is sort of this weird magical place to me. But is it less... I know it's less grody now, but is it stripped of grodiness in the entire boulevard? It looks basically the same. That scene where he's going down Hollywood Boulevard and there are flaming cars in the middle of the street. And people are beating up Santa Claus on the sidewalk.

Aside from that activity, it basically looks the same. Hollywood Boulevard is still very grody. And sections of LA have gotten classed up but I still think it's like a new coat of paint on a grody heart I mean they're still like they go by this store that's very recognizable called Hurricane has like a very big neon sign

and that's still there it's like a stripper store yeah all that business is booming okay so Lenny's a squid dealer squids oh what does it stand for again? It's a real thing, I think. What? It is.

It stands for Superconducting Quantum Interference Device, which is a sensitive magnetometer used to measure magnetic fields. And I think this is real technology that James Cameron is theorizing, like, measures magnetic fields. And I think this is real technology that James Cameron is theorizing

like maybe one day this could be used to read our own thoughts essentially. Digitize our thoughts. They're essentially like VR documentaries. Sure. You put this cradle cap on your head. Well, it's like Paprika

aka Better Inception, the Satoshi Kon movie. Yeah, great movie. Because there's like a thing that can read your dreams. It basically looks like a squid. It's like these little fingers. Yeah. You put this thing on.

You plug it into a mini disc player as you do. Of course. Of course. And then you can record your dreams. Or no, not your dreams. I mean your whatever, your point of view. You can make a movie. Yeah.

But that's that's the thing they have to get real people to live through these real circumstances record them so that other people can then live through them second hand you want the rush of doing the things you would never have the courage to do in your real life right but it means that these people have to go put themselves in real right because early on we see lenny choreographing a lesbian sex scene where he's kind of giving advice on like how to make it feel real to the actors. I mean, it's all the senses, too, we should point out. It's not just seeing.

It's feeling like your whole experience. It is plugged into your cortex. Right. And I mean, it reminds me of when when they first came out with like 360 degree cameras. And I was I was like so convinced that the new reality television was going to be like Kim Kardashian would have one of these cameras on and you would just like plug in to her experience. Right.

That's basically what this is except with non-famous people basically like porn stars. Was that famous people like people like that who are famous for the sake of being famous would essentially let their lives become being John Malkovich. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Where it's like you're paying a subscription. You ride around in their head. Right. You once a month pay $7.99 to be able to watch Kim Kardashian at any moment in time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You ride around in their head. You once a month pay $7.99 to be able to watch Kim Kardashian

at any moment in time. Which is also the Neuromancer thing too. What's it called? It has some other name. But the same thing. Or the StimSim. That's what it's called. It's also a thing that

replicates neural activity. So it's the whole experience, not just visual. What you're thinking of is The Simpsons, Emily. What? Simpsons from Gibson. Right. Yeah, right. It's a family sitcom.

Yellow people. That is the tech. Bart is a bad boy. They do a really good job explaining like there's like a there's like a scene that I feel like could easily feel clunky

where they explain he explains the technology when he has the client that's like the lawyer or something like the very preppy dude yeah and like they get

they get everything out of the way they're like this was military technology sure yeah that got like put on the black market it's always military just like the way. They're like, this was military technology that got put on the black market. It's always military, just like Inception, where they're like, a military designed this.

Why? Don't worry about it. Anyway, here's the squid thing. Yeah, carry on, carry on. But I mean, it's a really good economic scene, and you also get to see a first-timer, not somebody like Lenny, who knows this technology inside and out. You get to see a first-timer,

basically us experience it for the first time, which is great. The thing I love about it is that scene comes like 15, 20 minutes into the movie. They've already shown us a couple of the videos. They've shown people filming the things, going through the actions. She's doing a lot of showing, not telling.

So you already think you kind of got it and then she's got this one scene where she just like connects all the dots and makes sure you totally have it. But the opening of this movie we should talk about is like fucking unbelievable. Go ahead. Well there's what appears to be one continuous shot of a guy being

chased by cops that lasts like four and a half minutes and it's from the dude's POV. The way they shot these things was it was fucking hard. It's 1995 like it's hard to get a handheld camera to behave that way. By all accounts that was most of the budget

was that those sequences were really really complicated and they had to do some Cameron-esque pushing technology beyond where it had been up until that point. It was a stripped down

ARRI that weighed much less than the smallest AMO I don't know camera stuff but ARRI Alexa

I believe they're talking about this. And yet it would take all the prime lenses I love hearing all this camera shit. Arri Alexa, I believe they're talking about this. And yet it would take all the prime lenses. I love hearing all this camera shit. I mean, why wouldn't I? There were camcorders then, though. But I think the quality would look so bad. It does look bad, though.

It looks a little bad, but it looks pretty seamless. I guess it's more dimensional. And no one was using digital video at that point in time. The only way you were going to do that is if there was a scene with someone's home movie and it was supposed to look bad and even then you were transferring the home movie onto a tv screen and then shooting that in 35 millimeter it's so wild how much more stuff we figured out since it's true because i think even when i'm thinking about camcorders back there i think like it would just be too shaky if anyone like moves yeah there was stability.

Or maybe there was a little bit of that. It would be tough to stabilize it. But do you remember when Michael Mann started shooting a digital video and everyone was like, this looks fucking awful. This doesn't look like a real movie. You can't do this. Or you watch Spike Lee's Bamboozled and you're like, wow, this movie looks insane. It immediately made a movie look low rent.

Everyone had this very, very literal sense of how a movie was supposed to look, which was tied to film. But it was very hard. The opening sequence, which features the long jump. He jumps between buildings. It's incredible.

Which was done without a safety harness and by a stunt performer was really, really, really hard, apparently, according to what I'm reading. It's really effective and visceral, and the greatest thing about it is they make it look very seamless and easy. Yeah, was it actually one long take?

That's a good question. Are there cheats in there? It probably is, isn't it? It's hard to imagine how they would have cheated it. I don't remember, yeah. I'd have to, right, I don't know. But, I mean, it took you a long time to coordinate. At this point in this podcast,

which I already admitted I haven't listened to any of yet. There's only been two episodes. Yeah. But have you guys delved into the question of like why Catherine Bigelow is so hardcore? Like what is it that motivates her hardcore-ness? Because she is the most hardcore.

She's pretty fucking hardcore. Like for better and for worse. And this movie, I feel like is a prime example of that. She is like the most hardcore like for better and for worse and this movie i feel like is a prime example of that she's like the most hardcore and doesn't quit she likes to push uh genre and medium in into new directions i don't know i don't know it's hard to uh get into she is a semi-autician who went to whitney art school like the Whitney Institute and was very interested in male violence from an early

like point in her career like we don't have like the like like backstory on her that's like fills in the gaps and like helps us understand I don't know if there's an easy line to draw

certainly she doesn't do as many interviews I mean she's certainly like the least public she doesn't do director of all the people we've covered so far who all have larger personalities and personas.

And I've been reading some of her interviews, but she's very straightforward about like how she makes things. She's very cagey about her motivation. Or whatever. She's just sort of like, I don't know. It's the movie is the movie. You know, it's a lot of like that sort of stuff. Well, it's just the polar opposite I think of now,

like especially young directors or new directors who are showing up, like women directors. Have narratives about themselves, maybe. Well, especially female directors. And yeah, you're expected to have a thing of some political motivation that you choose the topics that you do. Sure. Or it's like, growing up, I was watching these movies and wondering X,

or I was watching these movies and inspired by Y. Yeah. Carry on, sorry. No, I mean, no, but it's just like, I didn't know if you guys had any insight on that. Because this scene, this opening scene is such a like, yeah. This scene's fucking hardcore. It's amazing.

Well, I know you go crazy when I try to like assign too much autobiographical baggage to movies by directors. I do. But. Well put. But Blue Steel really does kind of feel like the Urtex to me. Well, Blue Steel's a great movie. Right. But that movie,

have you seen Blue Steel? No. I think you would get a kick out of that movie, Emily. It rules. But the whole movie is Jamie Lee Curtis as this cop who everyone's like, you're really pretty. Why do you need to be a cop? And she's just like, this is what I want to do. I want to bash people's head through walls. There's a great scene where a guy is sort of like at a picnic is trying to kind of pick her up, like trying to nag her a little bit where he says that.

And she says, I like to bash people's head against the wall. And his face just kind of falls. And she just sort of smiles at him and like pats him on the head. The character has this like hardcore sense of morality. She grew up seeing a lot of injustice around her and she wants to correct that which you know Catherine Bigelow is very clearly a very politically socially

you know activated person. Sociopolitically rather than politically socially. But also I think she's just innately a hardcore person. Like as much as we want to find out that she fell into a radioactive vat of hardcore people. Sure. You know?

Hardcore people? Yeah. My joke is that every Batman villain fell into a vat of radioactive whatever they are. A penguin fell into a vat of radioactive penguins. Right. Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. So she fell into a radioactive vat of ex-gamers or whatever.

Right. Yeah. She came out and she was like, we're going to strap a camera to this person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. But, I mean, like, The Hurt Locker is a crazy hardcore movie. We'll get to that. Where she's like, put on that suit, Jeremy.

It's 130 degrees right now. Right. Like, you know. And she wants him to be sweating his ass off. And, like, yeah. And she wants him to be sweating his ass off. But even the fact that she was actually doing cleanup efforts after the LA riots, I think, speaks a lot about her. Because I don't think a lot of people who were directing studio movies at that point in time were going and doing. And as far as I can tell, it wasn't like it was for research or something or as part of a project. It was just something that she cared about.

Right. Which is just, I don't know. I think, yeah. I mean, it's also just generally hardcore to make this movie after Point Break. Oh, yeah. Well, like after Point Break, you could really jump into Hollywood's A-list. Yeah. Yes.

And there's no way she's making this movie and thinking like, no, I think this is going to play. Like this is definitely going to be a broad hit. I don't know. I mean, it should be. I mean, it should be. I mean, we could get into it more later. I just want to say two things before we fully delve into it. I think the point you're making is correct, which is that, like, the easy thing for her to do after Point Break

would have been to direct the next big blockbuster by any of the A-list action stars at the time. Like you imagine she could have directed the next Bruce Willis movie, the next Schwarzenegger movie. They said like, welcome to the majors, here you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And instead she makes like her real blank check movie.

And she casts Ralph Fiennes as the lead. Yeah. No, okay. So I'll say that Ralph Fiennes is probably the reason that this doesn't make sense because I think if you did have a Bruce Willis in that role, then this would have been a bigger deal.

Quite possibly. You could have gone a little more ordinary with your leading man. Commercially a very odd choice at that point in time. Especially since and I love this poster

but what a poster where it's just his face and then it says you know you want it and you're like you know you want what? Strange days? A Nazi from Schindler's List

except now he's got a beard? I do like the three, the one of him and Angela. Yes, the three headstands and Juliette Lewis giving us her grody stare. Can I make my second point

before we fully dig into it? I really would like you to. Just because I'm a connoisseur of context, right? And I think the table needs to be set properly. It must be acknowledged before we discuss strange days that Mack Weldon believes in smart design,

premium fabrics, and simple shopping. Yep. That's a fact. We have to acknowledge that. I know why you get so aggro about it. We know. But just contextually. I'm nodding.

It's worth noting that Mack Weldon would be the most comfortable underwear, socks, shirts, undershirts, hoodies, and sweatpants that you'll ever wear. That's a fact. Right? You're Mr. Facts today. I mean, look, can I throw out a hot take?

Yeah, uh-huh. And I don't mean to be incendiary when I say this. They have a line of silver underwear and shirts that are naturally antimicrobial, which means they eliminate odor. They don't smell. I mean, that's some freaky sci-fi shit right there. I'm not going to get any woke points for saying that, but it needs to be said. Yeah. You know?

I'm addressing the ills of society head on. No, and they want you to be comfortable, so if you don't like it, you can send it back. Here's my impression of you ordering Mack Weldon. Yeah. This is my first pair. Well, I don't like it. Let me send it back. Refund.

Are you going to ask any questions? No, you can keep it. I'm actually, I'm wrong. You can actually keep it and they'll just refund you no questions asked. Okay. That's kind of wild. So then here's my impression

of an idiot, okay? God. Hmm, Mack Weldon. Oh, I don't like this. I'm just going to keep it and ask for my money back sure you dummy why don't you like it it's good for you okay it's it's like a squib on your body a squib yeah a squid a squid you're you're tying it back to strange days what i'm saying is if

strange days lets you live the life of another person yeah right, with the technology it presents, the squid, Mack Waldenclothes is doing the same thing, which is like, what would it be like to live as someone who's comfortable? You know you want it. You know you want it. And if our listeners want it? Well, look, let's say you want it, but you want 20% off. Right. It's conditional.

I want it, but I want 20% off. There's a promo code for that. You don't leave the box blank. Yeah, this is your bit. You don't leave it blank. In the word blank. You put in blank. Yeah.

To get 20% off. You got to put a blank in there. At MackWeldon.com. Yes. Yeah, I think that covers. Right? I think that's most of the context we need to talk about Strange Days. I think it's all connected.

You know you want it, to quote the tagline for Strange Days. Right. And MackWaldon.com, promo code blank. Here's my tagline for MackWaldon. Sure. Clothes so good, so efficient at fighting odor, that even Tom Sizemore would smell good and look clean wearing. That is,

that's like the sort of triple A rating, you know what I mean? Where it's like, the Tom Sizemore rating of underwear. 1A is Brad Pitt, you know,

notoriously an odorous man. But looks good. 2 is Sean Penn. 2 is Sean Penn. 3 is Sizemore. And this has climbed Mount Sizemore. Yeah.

All right. Strange days. Strange days. Okay, so we start with this opening sequence Sizemore. And this has climbed Mount Sizemore. Alright. Strange days. Okay, so we start with this opening sequence of the guy being chased by the cops. Terrific. And then, yes, we realize this is... You're placed directly into it and the helmet comes off. A squid recording. Because he dies at the end. Right. And Lenny's

not into that. He's like, I don't like snuff. He's got principles. We learned that our main character has principles. And also it's like... And I love that, though. He's like, I don't like snuff. He's got principles. We learned that our main character has principles. And also it's like, and I love that though. It's like, he's got principles, but I mean, the second you see this guy, you're like, oh, this guy has maybe a few principles. Yeah, a couple. But he's also like, he's a squid dealer, but he's also like kind of like a squid studio

executive. Like he's in people notes where it's like, look, audiences don't like this when you do that. Well, he needs good product. He needs good product. He's a drug dealer so he's a connoisseur of the product. Sure.

I guess not getting high on his own supply. He has his own or I don't know not on what he sells people but on his own personal stuff. It's like you were saying

about the future of reality TV that maybe will come maybe won't where it's like there is something necessarily exploitative about these videos they

have to involve people yeah and that's what he says too is just like you know that there's not a market for i think later on he's talking to somebody like you're not gonna like watch a video of somebody skiing if you can ski yourself needs to be something that you would never you can never do and you see one example of this technology used in a benign way which is the guy who has no legs getting a squid video of a guy walking down the beach like sure that's pretty much the only time i think we see it used for what we could argue is like good you know avatar uh sure yeah yeah yeah but there's like altruism to that but apart from that that, it's like sex and violence. But he does have his line.

Like he views the, the snuff squid dealers derisively. That's not what he stands for. Right. Yeah. Um, so at the same time as Lenny Nero is being a squid man, we've got Lenny Nero is a terrific name. Like fits him so perfectly.

It's so great. You've got this prostitute called Iris who's on the run from these LA cops played by Vincent D'Onofrio and William Fickner. A really good duo. That's how you know that they're going to be really nice guys. Exactly.

Really good people. Oh, they're LA cops? Well, who's playing them? I'm not sure how I feel about this. Oh, so they're Vinny and Billy? Oh, they'll be fine. Right? Those are two stand-up gents. Emotionally balancing them. Their faces don't look like

cinder blocks. I need to look up this. Wait, is it William Fichtner? Is that his name? Yeah. Fichtner. I never quite know how you say his name because it's sort of a funny name I love that actor

so much so yeah he's like so recognizable he's like this is like basically his debut he's in a bunch of movies this year

because he's in Heat which he's a lot of fun in he's in Virtuosity which is a classic mid 90s sci-fi movie that is bad but in kind of a fun way but was successful

is kind of an interesting counterpoint to this movie. It wasn't that successful. It did well enough, right? Have you guys looked at his because I looked this up when I was earlier, his biography on IMDb. Oh, I love overwritten IMDb biographies.

I'm just going to read you the first line. I'm just going to read you the first line. Please do. A small town guy with a big heart. William Fichtner has been captivating the hearts of Western New Yorkers for decades. Only Western New Yorkers? Why? I don't know. I mean, he's from Long Island, but still.

Come on, William. We all love you. It's not like that's an old bio from his theater days or something. This includes credits up to The Dark Knight. Sure. This is not an old bio, apparently. It's so strange.

He's also from Buffalo. I guess he was born on Long Island, grew up in Buffalo. So he's talking about, like, his family and friends. You cannot use heart twice in one sentence like that. That's true.

That does not work. Here are his three trademarks listed on ODB. Often portrays antagonistic characters sure looks like a guard dog deeply gravelly commanding voice sure he's got a great voice attached earlobes

those are his three qualities because he's got you know that thing where the earlobes just sort of flow right into the face right he can't wiggle them it's a recessive gene. Maybe there's a nice kind of humility to that bio because he's saying like, look, yes, I've been working my way

into the hearts of Western New Yorkers, the people I actually know. I'm not egotistical enough to assume that audiences love me. Billy is for Western New Yorkers. Everything else is gravy. But that's the meat. Look, they might enjoy my work,

but they're not in love with me in the same way my family is, my friends are. He's also just that kind of actor who has nine projects in production right now on IMDb. Like, he just works. I mean, that guy is just in a lot of stuff. He's the guy who does, like, a guest spot on a TV show during his lunch break of filming a day player role in a movie. Exactly. Yeah. So, Fickner's in it. I mean, we're

like totally hyping up Fickner who's in, you know, five minutes of the movie. He runs and holds a gun in this movie. Yeah, right. I mean, he does kill himself gruesomely on screen right at the end. Yeah, spoilers. We're gonna get there. We're gonna get there. Iris is running. Iris is

being chased. It's Union Station Metro. Yes, they shot on the Metro, which It's a Union Station metro. Yes. They shot on the metro, which I think was quite complicated, too. Yeah. And they pull her wig off, and it turns out she's got a headset. It's a great moment. God damn it. One of these fucking kids causing this problem. And then if you're watching this in 2017, you're like, oh, it's about body cams, too.

Well, that's the thing. Yeah. Now, there is a hopeful note to this movie, which is interesting, but I think that's something that Bigelow is thinking coming out of the LA riots, where it's like capturing these images is vital.

And obviously, the Rodney King beating is captured on a camera, and that's why it's exposed, right? It also speaks to Bigelow's whole thing which is like i'm not gonna give you lessons i'm not making grand statements i'm trying to represent the way things are this thing we talk about that like works in our favor when it really works and works against her when it doesn't work yeah um but but it's just like these images need to exist these stories need

to be told these things need to be communicated and then how you respond to it is up to you right well that's what i like about it like the squid technology is kind of creepy and kind of she's not like presenting it as like some savior of the future but at the same time she's like look at this like defining feature of this horrible future i've created right but she's saying like there is like the camera is is itself is is unemotional. Yes. But what I love about the squid is that it is so emotional, like because you're feeling it as Ben pointed out. And then later during the most harrowing scene in the movie, the whole point is that this guy is using it to sort of like transfer his

emotions onto her. But, but it's an art form. If you can call it that, that exists without any sense of like editorialization like it's just experiential right and then your emotions you know look man this is obviously what she's fascinated by in movies like detroit yeah i just think i don't know go please go ahead well i just feel like this is more of a complete sentence on detroit yes it is

i mean it just, yes. I'll say watching this, and I had never seen it before, I was like, why would she want to make Detroit? Sure. Like, what is there of intrigue to her in making Detroit? I think it was more of intrigue to Mark Boll, and he sold her on it because he's the generator of those movies. It feels like a very literal version of much of what she's getting at in this movie, but also on a much smaller scale with a lot less to say.

Right, focusing on one very specific incident. We're going to talk about Detroit. We'll talk about it. We keep on every episode slipping in one negative opinion of Detroit. That's been like a runner throughout the season. Just because it's frustrating because it just fucking came out. We're talking about it all the time. It's not like having Dunkirk to look forward to during the knowledge. Just because it's frustrating because it just fucking came out and we're talking about her all the time. It's not like having Dunkirk

to look forward to during the Nolan. Sure, this is true. And I like Catherine Bigelow in general more than I like Nolan, but Dunkirk is such an exciting thing to get to feel. We committed to doing

Nolan and Bigelow back to back and we were like, man, they each have a big movie coming out this summer. Yep. And at the time it seemed I would have maybe bet a little more money

on Detroit working artistically over Dunkirk. I would not have. But no. A little more. I might have given two more cents to Bigelow. Detroit had red flags right from the start. Right. I would say. But you know I certainly was like I liked her last two movies and I was certainly like hey you know

Catherine Bigelow is a serious director and I want to see what she makes. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. She was on a good run. Strange days. Yeah. But yeah. She was on a good run. Strange Days. Sure. Strange Doss. I'm sorry. I keep saying that.

No, no. Thank you for the correction. It's worth correcting. Strange Doss. D-O-S. So Ralph Fiennes. Oh, yeah. This movie is in Doss.

We get early on because he's not a guy who loves squitting himself. You know, it's his job. He watches it a sample of times. But he is watching these videos of Juliette Lewis reliving his relationship. He's reliving their nicer days. It's really just one video. Nicer DOS.

Can we talk about Juliette Lewis's outfit? Can we talk about all her outfits? Also sometimes her lack of outfits. Yeah, well... The fishnet, you mean like... No, this is the roller skating one where she's wearing... That's right.

I wrote it down because I did, you know, I kind of watched it cursorily as I was re-watching it for this podcast, but she's wearing like a long sleeve, like maybe like a Henley type shirt or something. Yeah, it goes... something without a bra obviously. Right, that goes sort of to like a little bit above her belly button. Right, yeah. But it's like

a long underwear shirt or something. It's a shirt where the sleeves end right above the elbow. Yes, that's right. For some reason, you know, right over the elbow. Okay, and then she's wearing a very, not a thong, but like a very spare bikini bottom. Yes.

And then leg warmers. Leg warmers. Up to the thigh. Well onto the thigh. You know, like halfway up the thigh. This outfit, Griffin, if you don't remember. Yeah, no, I remember. Yeah, sure, sure.

Yeah. And not only that, they are in public there at Venice Beach or whatever, right? Yeah. And not only that, they are in public. They're at Venice Beach or whatever, right? She also, like now, this should be the new substitute instead of Kris Jenner. Because, you know, the meme now is like, you're doing great, sweetheart. Or like, you're doing amazing, sweetie. You're doing amazing, sweetie.

That's all she's saying in the scene is, you're doing amazing, sweetie. While she's roller skating around in her bikini. It's so weird. It's wild stuff. But also, you have It's so weird. It's wild stuff. But also you have these two extended scenes. I keep saying wild. Sorry, carry on. Yeah, strange is the word you're looking for.

Strange. You have two extended scenes where she just very casually takes off her clothes and remains undressed for a period of time that just becomes very banal. Yeah, sure. I mean, she's often either nude or semi-nude. Right, in a weird kind of way where it's like,

even when you're watching his squid video and it's obviously like a memory of his that is sexual, the way she's depicted is very non-sexual because it's just like someone casually being in their own home. Right, it's just like living with your girlfriend or whatever. And then the same thing when she's changing. Right, when she's changing backstage after the concert and it's just like

yeah it's a dressing room this is just kind of what happens yeah so she they used to date now she's dating

Philo Gant gross record producer played by Michael Wincott and not Bono and not Bono who I think of mostly as the villain in The Crow oh right where he has the one of my favorite

villain names of all time Top Dollar which is The Crow is like if Strange Days was less restrained that movie is hysterical I love that movie I've never seen it one of those movies where every second

my critical brain is like this is bad bad bad David bad bad bad and David, bad, bad, bad. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know. But it's pretty great. Oh, man. That movie is amazing. It's a lot of movie. Wait, so when are we introduced to Philo Gant?

We don't know that she's dating him until later. All we know is like. Right, because Philo Gant, we're already seeing him on screen. Oh, right, because he's the manager of jericho one he's the manager of jericho one played by glenn plumber who was like he another who's another actor where i'm like just like yeah camera zoom like crash into my face and it's like i'm in 1995 like if i see glenn plumber in a movie because glenn plumber i mean he's in menace to society he's in speed which i love him in he's in showgirls which is kind of where the wheels come off the bus for him.

Sure. The Speed bus. Yeah. He's weirdly one of the only people who recurs and is in Speed 2. Oh. Because he's the Jaguar owner in Speed. Right. Who Keanu hijacks and then he's in the car with him and he's like,

if you get a scratch on this car I'm gonna kill you you know for some reason he's also in Speed 2 which is weird because Keanu Reeves is not anyway right

right right his relationship is no longer in the movie I know right anyway

so we're seeing on video only we're hearing about Jericho 1 yeah it's on the news or something who is a rapper

slash activist. Was kind of a Tupac. Tupac. Jesus Christ. A Tupac analog in terms of his cultural cachet, but also what he represented politically and all of that. Right. And Tupac is not killed until after this movie comes out.

No, not too early. This movie is sort of eerily. Not to say that Tupac was assassinated by the police, although I'm sure that's a theory. But there was definitely that narrative that was out there,

and he was certainly paranoid about that kind of thing as well. Yes, for sure. Understandably, so yeah. So I guess, so I think we're hearing about Philo via that, right? Yeah, you're seeing him,

news reports, right? Philo, Philo? Right, right. But it's kind of a thing that everyone's- She says Philo via that, right? Yeah, you're seeing him in news reports. Philo, Philo? Right, right. But it's kind of a thing that everyone's... She says Philo and then other people say Philo. There's so many movies where it's like the cast has not just been briefed on how to pronounce somebody's name. Right, right. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine. I can't think of any off the top of my head right now.

But you're right. And especially in a sci-fi movie where maybe a name is kind of made up. Like let's all agree on what this name is. I've had things like that where sometimes it's like really fucking hard when they don't give you the advanced note so you're like working on your scenes

and you like prep in your head and you think you know what the reading is and then you get to set and they're like oh everyone's been saying it this way. You practice at that time and then the take where you say it the wrong is and then you get to set and they're like, oh, everyone's been saying it this way. Yeah. You practice at that time and then the take where you say it the wrong time, you regress back to the way you practice it

is the best one performance wise. Right. There's a weird thing in the tick where like, it's mostly in the remaining six episodes that haven't been released yet

that we have shot for people who keep asking if we'll get to make more episodes. We are done with the rest of this season at least. But there's a fictional country and a fictional language that becomes a bigger part of the second half of the season. Sure.

And they cast like three different actors who had to play people from that country. And so the first actor kind of got to cast the die in terms of like his interpretation of what it sounded like. And then the second actor comes to set, and it's two episodes later, and she's playing someone from the same country. And you go, do you direct her to sound more like the first guy? Or do you go, well, there are regional accents within a country,

and also every person has their own voice? It gets into weird stuff. Anyway, in this movie, they all say his name differently. Thanks for that. Yep. I know, it's a thing I've been thinking about a lot. So, Lenny's got two best friends. Just like anyone else, his two best

friends are... Hashtag the two friends. Right. His former LAPD partner who's now a PI and has a giant blonde wig. Right. Kind of looks like Brett Michaels. That friend we all have. We all have a guy like that in our crew. Yeah.

Right. And then his other pal is Mace, who is a limo driver, who's like the best dressed, most amazing woman on the planet. Yeah. And you're kind of like, wait, why is she a limo driver? Which is never explained. Right. It's like, but she's like also kind of a bodyguard because her limo is bulletproof, right?

Her limo is an awesome bulletproof limo. It's like a tank. I'm like, does she own the limo business? Is she a contractor? Is it just her limo and she just does awesome limo shit? Well, if you're a person who needs a bulletproof limo, you go to her and it probably costs more than a regular limo so she's probably able to generate quite a bit

of business from that. The word that comes to mind whenever I see Angela Bassett in a movie, both in terms of like her acting, but also the character she's playing, regardless of the film, is impressive.

Yeah, she's right. Like anyone Angela Bassett plays becomes an impressive person where you're like, wow, that person. I love how she's styled. Like I love her outfits.

All these blazers and stuff. Oh my God. Just badass blazers. I love her in this movie. Her backstory is that she, like he was nice to her when she was a cop. When he was a cop,

it goes beyond that. Wait, no. She wasn't a cop though. When he was a cop. He was a cop. No, I'm saying when he was a cop, he was nice to her. Her husband was abusing her or something.

Yeah, I think it's her boyfriend was like arrested on like drug charges or something. Left her with a child and she sort of became a surrogate father figure and allied to her. It's a little... It's just a really brief flashback. It is. But it's there to inform us he's a shithead and she has a very short fuse with him.

But then we see that flashback and understand why they hang out. He was there when no one else was. Sure. But right. Because like so much of their relationship is she's like I don't approve of you being a squid dealer. I'm like well if you don't I mean like then why do you hang out with a squid dealer? That seems to be

80% of his life. The thing is that he was the one person who was there for her during her tough DOS. So now she's there for him during his strange DOS. Can I see my face right now. Can I... Unhappy is how I describe it. Maybe offer a...

Maybe not a... I don't know, universally agreed upon assessment of this. Which is just that like I didn't really pick up on the fact that she was in love with him

until maybe the end of the film. I don't actually disagree. Certainly, she's not hitting that hard. Because she's just such a badass and he's such a weasel and it's like,

I would not think that. You're kind of like, why would she? Aside from the performance, just the facts of the relationship. Right. She's so much higher status

than him. Right. Well, right. And like, I love that in the first hour of this movie, which like, nothing really happens

for the first hour of the movie. Like, things are happening, but there's no plot for us to follow right two times he presents a fake Rolex as collateral to different people who he is trying to like keep on the line

he's so sweaty he's like running he's like no no it's all fine it's all fine like everything's gonna work out you know and like yeah he's on the like his last poker chip right like however you want to put it but there's some point early on in the first hour i think where he says like well you're in love with me you know or something like that but you almost interpret it as just like a fuck you yeah and

it's kind of him again with his inflated opinion of himself it takes a while to be like oh literally she is in love with you right yeah meanwhile max is introduced when he pulls that like great bit that we all love when he points a gun at lenny and it's like you're under arrest it's so funny and cool yeah it screws up lenny's drug deal and then he's like i'm so funny i'm just fucking with you five comedy points five comedy points which again if you're gonna be friends with tom sizemore yeah that's probably what you have to put up with, right? Right. Yeah, where he points real guns at your head and he's like, ha, ha, ha, I'm the cops. I do think it is interesting, though, that, like, the love triangle aspect, which was apparently, like, the nucleus of Cameron's entire idea for this movie. Yeah.

Kind of just becomes a thing. Like, she's so much more invested in the world that she's building. It's definitely not the nucleus of this movie. Yeah, it feels much more like when she's frustrated with him and when she's like frustrated with him still pining for Juliette Lewis, it feels more like she just wants him to be a better person than the fact that she's in love with him and upset that he's still in love with this other woman, which is like far more compelling to me

than if she just like wants to give him a smooch. We talked about this in the Blue Steel episode but I always like bemoan the lack of movies about just like a man and a woman who are friends and work together and it never crosses a line. And I'm not like saying I never want people to end up together

but I always feel that pang of disappointment where like I make it through the first hour of a movie and it's like oh they're just peers. They're just peers and then when they kiss I, I'm just like, okay, fine. Fine, but it would be nice if you just depicted a male family. Spoiler, I like when they kiss. I like when they kiss.

They're pretty people. My argument is always like, look, if I want them to kiss, I will shout kiss at the screen. Which you do. Which I do. David kiss Sims. Which I literally actually do do at home,

which people who have watched movies with me at home can totally. You also do that to all of your friends. who have watched movies with me at home can totally. You also do that to all of your friends. You have a better reputation. I do, yeah. I tell them to make out. When people have crushes on people. I'm like, just make out with them.

Kiss, kiss them, kiss them. Kiss, kiss. He waves his arms around. David does his Muppet arms move with his arms. It sounds like Griff is like doing a bit. I'm not. No, that is a bit what I'm like. Right.

That is always my dating advice too and like obviously honestly it's often bad advice oh yeah i think it's i think it's generally good advice but like sometimes the person's like oh the person you think you know like it didn't work out like he doesn't like me and i'm like oh well yeah it'll be okay and then you wave your arms more no I feel like you get frustrated with crushes. I'm not a big fan of long crushes. It doesn't feel like people should have crushes at our age. I agree.

I'm such a crush person. Right. Which is why you hate me. Yeah. Because I always am like, crush. And you're like, kiss! Yep. He's doing the arms again.

Crush or kiss. You're right. I am a little intolerant of crushes. Right. That's a good point. You're like either kiss or don't kiss. I like like romance and chemistry and people being cute. But sometimes when a crush goes too far, I'm like now it's just a complex.

You know, now you can't break out of crush. Yeah, it's its own thing. It's its own hobby. And like everything must be overanalyzed and it sort of becomes like a sort of organism. Which is why we're friends because I'm the exact. Yeah you are. But you like crushes as long as they have a certain narrative propulsiveness. Right. But as

I was saying and I think as Emily was saying in a movie when there's a moment when I think characters might kiss and I feel a chemistry between them. Obviously if you don't feel chemistry between them it's a bit of a bummer. But like when you do I'm just like yeah kiss kiss. When they kiss in this movie I think it's earned

yeah no 100% it's super earned I think she wants that's what I'm saying I didn't really I don't think she's tacking it on

no no no and also I mean happy to see him end up with Bassett rather than Lewis like that's a character he should be with

they're gonna be good for each other and that's what you want out of that and they got a lot of history it's not like a little fling. They really know each other. But one, all true, all true.

But another thing is fuck. Oh yeah, well you're saying in the first hour you're not picking up on it. But the first hour is overloaded with sensory information. You've got like Skunk and Nancy and other great flash in the pan 90s is overloaded with sensory information. You got like Skunkin' Ansi and other great

flash-in-the-pan 90s bands. Ben, do you have any opinion on Skunkin' Ansi? I was a huge Skunkin' Ansi fan when I was a kid. Wait, okay, fine, but we need to contact this. It's my favorite detail, or my favorite thing in the movie, besides like the squid technology itself.

Because they Mace and lenny take one of her clients or like pick up one of her clients right and take him to a club i think that's in the valley yes called retinal fetish i forgot about the name which is the best name for this kind of club. And I love this kind of club in movies in general. That's actually my vaporwave name. Retinal Fetish.

Oh, it's a great vaporwave name. Isn't Retinal Fetish just around the corner from Tech Noir? Tech Noir. I think they're on the same block. Yeah. I mean, I would love to make a list of... I think after I saw this, was tweeting about it and I was like there are two kinds of futuristic

clubs or places where people are dancing in this kind of movie any kind of cyberpunk movie and there are cave raves in Matrix and then there are cage raves and this is a cage rave this is a cage rave good point yeah cave rave in the Matrix is a great rave. This is a cage rave. Good point. Yeah, cave rave in the Matrix

is a great rave that I stick up for. Fraggle Rock is a series about a cave rave. Fraggle Rock's got a lot of cave rave. A never ending cave rave. Yeah. Cage rave.

With bozers at the butt. Cage rave. Another good, another good cage rave is in The Hunger. That's a, that's a A plus.

We keep bringing up this movie on this podcast. Really? Yeah, well because we mentioned it during Near Dark because I was trying to think of like sort of vampire movies with this podcast. Really? Yeah, well, because we mentioned it during Near Dark because I was trying to think of sort of vampire movies with a bit of a genre twist.

And then we mentioned it during Blue Steel, saying that her style was kind of adjacent to Tony Scott, their visual sensibilities at this point in time. Yes, yes. Yeah. The Hunger. I gotta watch The Hunger. Oh my God, you gotta watch The Hunger.

Weird movie. Weird movie. Yeah. Anyway, I love this club I love everything about it I want to go to retinal fetish I want to you know I want to take a Japanese businessman to retinal fetish

they're building a strange days extension onto Disney world right that was part of Cameron's deal I just want to read you some stuff here it's just called Los Angeles Cameron's deal was they had to spend $2 billion on Avatar Land and $20 million

on Strange Days Land. I'd go. God, I would not go. So Skunk and Nancy. Ben, did you like Skunk and Nancy? I've never heard of them. Oh my God. Am I the only person

who's heard of Skunk and Nancy? They were a British band so maybe that's why. No, I don't know what that is. But why would you know about a British band? They were a British band, so maybe that's why. No, I don't know what that is. But why would you know about a British band?

No. They were nobodies when they were in this movie. Like, they were just getting started, but they were a big deal in the late 90s in Britain. Their lead, like, leading woman was this woman called Skin. That is cool. That's amazing. Who is this sort of spindly, bald lady

who has this really intense voice. Their second album, which I love, is called Stoosh. I'm just injecting 90s right into your veins. Oh my God. And their third album is called post-orgasmic chill anyway so just to give you an idea uh also tricky uh does some stage yeah performing no i was gonna say this the soundtrack on here is a real time capsule i keep saying wild stop it david uh deep forest uh they were encouraged to jam between takes because bigelow just wanted to get as much footage and wanted the rave to feel like a real

rave and a soundtrack album was released in addition 60,000 promotional CD-ROMs which contained clips, music all kinds of stuff was made available through the college special issue of Rolling Stone

sold only at record stores media. Is this one of the first big like of Rolling Stone. Man. Sold only at record stores. Media. Is this one of the first big like post-internet dangers of technology movie? Because I feel like dangers of technology is like a thing but they would often be like

it's robotics, it's AI, it's what have you. Well, the same year we have The Net. The Net. Which at the time was derided as a hilarious

sort of work of alarmism and now feels like basically just like a prescient piece of storytelling about the modern age. Hackers has come out already by this point. Hackers is 95, same year. Yeah.

It's a big year for tech movies. And my favorite movie in this genre, Johnny Mnemonic, also 95. So yeah. It's the 95. So, yeah. It's the time. Emily, what do you got to say? Oh, I was going to also mention the other rave scene,

but we should wait until we get there, because that one is real special. There's good facts about that one, too. Well, keep me on plot track, because it's very hard to remember the plot of this movie. There's a lot of balls up in the air. So, I think it's at the club where we meet Philo in person. That's right.

Yeah. He has the confrontation with Faith, who is Juliette Lewis. And she performs there too. So it starts with them and then she has to do her performance and everything.

And then Lenny is like all upset about it or something. But he's there. What are they doing at the club? He rides with Mace. And that's the only reason he wants to go to the club is just to see her. He wants to see her. He's hung up on her.

Faith. Mace is kind of like, geez, you know, you really got to get over this. But it's somehow a disc. He gets a disc from a contact. He gets a disc left in his car. Well, that as well. Oh, wait, no, that's the other one. Iris drops a disc in his car, but, that as well. Oh, wait, no, that's the other one. A disc gets dropped. Iris drops a disc in his car,

but his car gets towed. Yeah. And Lenny tries to be like, hey, take a Rolex, but he just steals the car. I mean, tows the car. Yeah. So that disc is

in the wind right now. That's one important disc. And he gets another disc at the nightclub. So maybe that's also why he's going there because he's picking up a new piece of product.

And this disc is a horrifying scene where like a uh it's iris is being raped and murdered and like squid recording it at the like you know like like we said there's this weird emotional transfer angle to it she the the rapist has put the squid on her that hooks her up to what he is seeing right so she's effectively watching her own assault and he's watching her like emotions which he likes he's getting a thrill out of it so fucked up you're watching this idea i mean it's a fucked up idea bigelow is obviously putting a lot of care into depicting this like with as much sort of like naked horror as possible it's horrifying

it is really intense yeah and that's what I'm saying when I'm saying like she's not making this movie and thinking like

this will be a blockbuster no you know like cause like that scene is she's just not holding back at all right like I don't know

how else to this is a very angry movie like I think there was probably a point where there was a more straightforward version of this concept that she probably was hoping was a blockbuster. Right. And she felt very riled up about the state of the world and started infusing all of that into it.

And then I think that became a priority. I think at a certain point, she was just like, I have all this shit I need to say. Yeah. There's a lot. Yeah. A lot going on. Yeah. yeah there's a lot yeah a lot going on yeah and this is the part that rubbed the critics the wrong way because i think a lot of people thought it was just purely exploitative exploitative

without really going anywhere with it or that it was just uh you know like dark and disturbing but uh you know didn't i guess pick up on more of what she was trying to do with this idea of voyeurism and the horror of being of just rape culture in general and the fact that there is that latent part of all of it like why people are fascinated with stories about

women getting attacked yeah it feels like that's such a part and parcel of why this is about that specific crime and not another one. Although there is like another murder also. But like it feels like that's so like why this movie exists. I do find it fascinating that people were upset and felt like it was exploitative because as you said, it's such a popular like storytelling trope, which is so annoying and so gross. Yeah.

That people use sexual assault as like a plot catalyst or a motivator for someone else to get revenge. You know, or like this inarguable, horrible event

but it's usually dealt with in a way where you don't really have to engage with the crime itself. And this movie is like, the whole point it's making is like you can't back away from this. Like you have to acknowledge

this shit's going on. Yeah. And then people said you shouldn't have shown this. Right, i mean it's sort of like i mean i think the the side of this it doesn't work is like again like going back to detroit like which is also just upsetting and and visceral in a way that i think went too far for a lot of people yeah but i and then the criticism around that is very much the same. It's like what you're just representing it like, and you're making,

you're making for a very unpleasant viewing experience. Right. Yes. Why are you making us live through something we all agree is bad. But I, I do think that those are such differently politicized, like acts of violence. Yes.

And the fact, and I think that you see a close, like you see close upup racial violence much more in film than you do uh like a rape scene um or like you see one that actually grapples you know i was gonna say you don't see a lot of rape scenes that are shot like this no yeah usually no i don't think that there are any other rape scenes like this um yeah no i mean like you know when i was leaving the screening of this at moma like there, like, you know, when I was leaving the screening of this at MoMA, like there's like an, you know, kind of older couple leaving.

You're like, that was a nasty piece of work about this film. And it is. It totally is. It is. I mean, it's grubby. But it's, I feel like it's grubby with a purpose. Sure, I do too. Yeah.

But also like Detroit is like if this sequence lasted for the central 80 minutes of the movie. If that was the only thing that was going on and this, like the entire point is that the movie is forcing a man to watch and grapple

with what's happening and not letting him get away from it. Yeah, because she's cross-cutting with Ralph Fiennes in the limo freaking out at the sight of this.

Right. And kind of narrating for us like what the sort of the point of the squid transference is also I

one part of this I thought was fascinating it was frustrating to watch and then I was like I know why though like why she did this it's like just take it off

take it off like if you if you start to realize that you're watching a snuff film you turn that shit off I've never been in that situation before but I would imagine

I've been in that situation you've been in that you. You've been in that. You may not, but like on Twitter, when some fucking news breaks and suddenly your video starts auto loading in your feed. And for a second, you don't realize what's going on.

And then you do. And you go like, ah, you know, and at least I have always just been like, you know, Oh no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, But, uh, that's an experience we're now being confronted with. Like that guy who shot those two news people, you know, and filmed it and posted it right to Facebook or whatever. That's what's going. Anyways, but sorry, finish your point. But yeah, no, but like he keeps watching.

And I think that that's an important character detail about him. Yes. Like I think and then and I think that that is what she's condemning also is the fact that he keeps watching, you know, one because it's like his line of work, but also because he's a man. And like that's the culture that he's living in. And I think that that's very... I don't know. I think that that is subtle and also infuriating. I agree.

And then I do actually also think it's interesting that we then see Sizemore not watching it right after. And he has this more canned line where he's like, well, I don't want to eat lunch today or you know and it's like and of course spoiler alert tom size more is the rapist in the video uh i didn't pick up on that you know i know obviously he's very bad but i i was still surprised by that it's a good reveal but that but that like that video is very well shot the first one at that like the moment where you see him pulling the mask over. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I immediately, as soon as it's revealed, I remembered his reaction to that. Yes. Because it stuck in my memory. It's like, that's a callous thing that an asshole would say.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little canned. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That moment when it zooms in on her eye and you see the reflection

of the mask. Like, Jesus Christ, is that upsetting? It's really, really bad. So, they have this piece of evidence. They just gotta move us along. And so Iris

is, they get to the hotel, but Iris is already dead. Right? We see her being taken away. So he takes it to Tick, Richard Edson. My friend. Yeah. My big blue buddy buddy i swear to god like the same characters in minority report which is another movie about uh that involves pov uh you know this is the one performance in the movie that i think contains too much paprika he's definitely got a take and i like richard edison i think he's a fun character actor. I think he's in a different movie than everyone else.

That's fine. I mean, I'm not going to argue with you. He's barely in it. He's not in it much, so it doesn't really matter. His scenes are really big. Well, he's in the very beginning. Yeah. So you start with him, and I was like, okay, so is this the tone of the movie?

Is everyone doing this kind of elevated, super manic camp thing? Right. And then it gets away from him, and then it comes back. It's like, oh, right, now this fits even less. But so they go to Tick. Tick's like away from, and then it comes back. It's like, oh right, now this fits even less. But so, they go to Tick. Tick's like, well Iris was looking for you.

So they go to the car in the impound lot to get, retrieve her disc, which she dropped in there. And then there's this sort of like fiery shootout with D'Onofrio and Fickner.

Yeah. Who try to take down the limo, but Angela Bassett's got one over on them. Drive it into the water. She drives it into the water. Damn right. We should mention at this point... That's kind of like what this movie has for an action sequence, you know what I mean? Sure.

Well, the ending. Yeah, and the ending too. We should mention that, you know, originally the budget was presumed to be like $30 million, was estimated that ended up going $15 million over budget. Those extra $15 million were Catherine Bigelow invested film funds into

mini-discs. She was trying to make mini-discs happen. Did anyone else own a mini-disc player? Because I had one. No, I knew people who had them. I spent a lot of time recording off the radio, transferring my CDs.

I really was like, no, this is going to work. It's going to be good. That was like a summer. Yeah, pretty much. And, you know, obviously it was good because I used to walk to school listening to my Discman and obviously if you just sort of landed on your foot a little hard,

the CD would skip. And with the MiniDisc, it didn't happen. And I was like, oh, revolutionary technology of the future. What else do we need? This is all we did it, right? It doesn't skip as often. Right. You really had to throw those things to make them skip.

Did music get released on it? Yes, I owned OK Computer on mini disc. Oh my God. Do you still have that? It's still coming out. Somewhere probably. Can I have that? If I ever found it, I'll give it to you.

Guys, we're watching a live squid trade right here. Disc trade. But yeah, no, usually, obviously, no, you just bought the blank minidiscs and transferred your CDs over to them. Right. But no, I did buy OK Computer on minidisc. It has a label on it. That's so cool.

Isn't it not to go all like only 90s kids will get this, but like isn't it weird to think that you used to have to like in the morning pick out like, okay, what are the only 12 songs I'm going to be able to listen to today? I'm going to bring like two CDs with me today or whatever. And sometimes I'd like go to sleep and be like, remember in the morning to switch out Appetite for Destruction with Use Your Illusion 2.

And then I'd forget and I'd go to school and I'd be like, oh, the morning to switch out Appetite for Destruction with Use Your Illusion 2. And then I forget and I go to school and I'd be like, oh fuck, it's Appetite again. I gotta just listen to Rocket Queen again. Emily,

do you have anything you want to add? Unless you want to carry a CD wallet with you in your backpack. Sure. So people did. Yeah.

I don't have anything I wanted to add. I wanted to make sure that I had the plot right. That was all. Thanks for talking about Minidiscs for a while so I could read it. Anytime. Literally make sure that I had the plot right. That was all. Thanks for talking about mini discs for a while so I could read them.

Anytime. Literally anytime. It's just they finally after all this action they watch Iris' discs which is this political murder essentially by the cops of Jericho 1.

So Iris was wearing I guess she was just making She's just making a tape or making a disc for Lenny to sell to Lenny the experience being what if you were

like one of Jericho One's entourage or like a girl who like was gonna fuck him or something and like hanging out

and partying apparently yes right that is the only reason she was doing it as far as I can remember it's like Kim Kardashian's

mobile game where it's like Kim Kardashian's mobile game where it's like what's it like to like be with Kim Kardashian for a day sure how are you gonna spend your gems

yeah I mean so it's unclear whether or not anybody else there knew that she was recording it but

so you see like oh they're getting in the car they're gonna drive to the club or whatever and then they get pulled over

by our two favorite cops and it escalates quickly and Jericho is killed they get pulled over by our two favorite cops, and it escalates quickly, and Jericho is killed. Yes. And so when we see Iris Slater running away, freaking out,

she's basically, she's run from that crime. And when they pull her wig off, and they see the squid thing, they realize she was filming it. So that's all true. It's all true. It all really happened. But I mean, again again this is like the part that i was when i was watching it you know a few months ago i was like how how did we have this movie this whole time right it's true yeah 1995 guys so prescient on so many different counts and this feels like the most immediately like like just hit yourself over

the head like holy shit like this is like it's so it still feels as current as ever as anyone would say but also it like deals with this situation like deals with this idea in like yes in sci-fi terms but i think in like a more hands-on way than than anything i've seen recently barely sci-fi i mean that's sort of another appealing thing about this movie. It is very specifically set four years in the future. She's not trying to depict a future world. She's just like taking right now and turning up the volume a little bit. It also is like, you know,

he came up with this idea in 1986 when it was like, okay, we got 13 years until like the millennium. Like he wanted to do a Y2K movie. And then by the time they finally get it made, it's like we got four years so right but i mean right but she's watching the la riots or whatever and she's thinking like yeah the world is a little bit on fire yeah yeah i speak to the aesthetic really quick please um so i i said before we were recording um what excited me about seeing this film is this is like pre apple oh yeah yeah yeah well yeah right you

know and i just i don't know it's like i haven't even really like grappled with it 100 but you mean apple ubiquity you know obviously apples around sleek clean feel like i guess the example technology looked us it's strange it is running on dots yeah exactly. And then you think of like Her. Her is Apple aesthetic. It's very designy. Right. Yeah, because you go like sci-fi essentially exists in like two phases, which are like. Like Oblivion. Right, right.

Oblivion, which is about a war with iPods. Yes. Oblivion is about what if iPods conquered the universe. Sure. Conquered the planet at least. Right. And Tomion is about what if iPods conquered the universe. Sure. Conquered the planet, at least. Right. And Tom Cruise had to fight them. Yeah.

Right. And Melissa Leo was the queen iPod. Is the queen iPod that you must, like, fly into and, yeah. Right. Hey, hey, hey. Spoilers. Spoilers. She's an evil dodecahedron.

Yes. She won the Oscar for that, right? She did. Yeah. Best dodecahedron. But there are, like, if you look at, like, the 70s sci-fi, right? Sure. You go, like, two pillars are, like, okay, there's the Logan's Run thing, right?

Which is also sort of like the THX 1138, which is like very sterile. Sure, sure. Very clean. The future is we all wear like jumpsuits. Right. And but also like we all have like totally casual sex with each other. Yeah, yeah. Because in Logan's Run, it's like you go to your apartment and you sort of like dial in your name and like a lady pops up out of an elevator.

Yeah, right. And she's like, how you doing? That's like light up cubes. Yes. A lot of light up cubes, sure. But that's like a sci-fi universe where there's one aesthetic that dominates everything. Like the technology. Right, right, right.

The architecture. Like everything is one side we live in a bubble sure right and then you have like the Star Wars thing which is like

the very practical lived in machinery kind of junk thing I don't I don't even know if Star Wars counts in the conversation about like sci-fi aesthetics

I don't know I'm just saying like Alien and Matrix like this idea of like a very like you see how it's built

hunks of junk right hunks of junk I think Star Wars counts I guess so yeah the Millennium Falcon And Matrix. Like this idea of like a very like you see how it's built. Right. Hunks of Junk. I think Star Wars counts. I guess so. It does. Yeah, the Millennium Falcon. Yeah.

For sure. That kind of thing. No, all of it. It's dirty. Right. The dirty sci-fi. And then this movie is in this weird space where it's like mostly the world we know with like very practical just like elements of technology.

Not even like a technology that's changed the way the buildings look or we dress or anything like that. But the stuff is just kind of banal looking. Like it isn't like purposefully grody. You know? It's not hunks of junk and it's also not like Apple technology like you said. It's just like some shit. Yeah. Emily, I want you to talk about the second club scene.

The second club scene? No, you wanted to talk about the other club scene. Take us to the club, Emily. Well, I was talking about the end. Well, because that's where we're at now. No, we're not. Pretty much. I mean, well, you wanted to talk about the other club scene. Take us to the club. Oh, the, well, I was talking about the end. Well, because that's where we're at now. No, we're not. Pretty much. I mean, well, you give me the plot then.

Wait, okay. So I feel like there's a lot. Because once they have the mini disc. So we find out, okay, so we find out that Jericho

was killed by the cops. Yes. We find out that Tick's brain has been like overloaded with squid. Oh, yeah. been like overloaded with squid oh yeah he like kind of just goes yeah

he's not like dead but he can't see anything except like static or whatever it's sort of like a quasi brain dead I don't know so after all this for some reason I don't this doesn't say how that happens but Lenny does go

to Mace's house. Or like, they're like hiding out in like. That's where, right, that's where they watch the Jericho One video. They watch it at Lenny's, I think it's at Mace's brother's house or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a family cookout or something. Yes, that is where they, yeah. And they were going to just stay there and lay low, but then they're like

oh shit, we've got to go to this party. Yes, there's a big party at the Westin Bonaventure Hotel. Correct. One of my favorite places in Los Angeles. Please tell us. I don't know anything about the Westin Bonaventure Hotel. It's a storied

crazy bunch of glass tubes. It's a crazy bunch of glass tubes. It is the, what do you call it, the headquarters in Inception. Wherever they start off, like where Michael Caine is. Yeah, it's like a mall. It looks like a mall inside. It is an incredible piece of- You mean Interstellar, by the way, not Inception. Yeah, Interstellar.

That's what I meant. Yep, but yes. It's, yeah, it's just this insane, completely, like, irrelevant, like, future vision of what downtown LA was going to be like. Right. Because it's like, okay, well, nobody walks in Los Angeles, so we'll, like, replicate the idea of a city in this hotel. Within buildings, right, right. Which is, like, okay, well, nobody walks in Los Angeles, so we'll replicate the idea of a city in this hotel,

which is like a mall. It's like five stories that's in this atrium. There are still businesses in there. There's a really good bami place in there. Sure. But yeah, it obviously failed. It was not a good idea, but it still is like this, you know,

like, I guess not monolith, like quadrilith in the middle of, of downtown LA. Yeah. Downtown LA. It is kind of fascinating. Yeah.

Yeah. It's, it's incredible. I, it was originally owned by Mitsubishi and now it's not, I don't know. It's run by like a hotel company, but it's like,

it's like a weird precursor to like, I don't know if people have gone to the Grove in Los Angeles. I've been to the Grove, sure. Yes. Oh, yes. Umami Burger. Or was it that Umami Burger? I've been to Umami Burger. But like this idea of like, well, we don't have the experience of what one would consider a normal city or a normal like city experience.

Let's build a little fake city that we can replicate it in. In his book, Postmodern Geographies, The Reassertion of Space in Critical Social Theory, Edward Soja describes the hotel as a concentrated representation of the restructured spatiality of the late capitalist city. There's much more of this that I would love to read. There's a really good clip, I think, on YouTube that's... He might

have had a hand in it, but there's a clip that just highlights all of the movies that this hotel's made. True Lies shot in there, too? True Lies, yeah. There's a plaque for True Lies. Cool. And there's... When you enter in through the parking garage, there's just like a hallway of all the movie posters that the hotel's been.

That's cool that they have pride. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love that place. So, and I was, I knew that it was in, I knew it played a part in this film. And I was thrilled that it was such a crucial part because it's great. It's where Philo is throwing some big party for like LA's rich. Yeah. To enjoy the millennium in peace,

I guess. And the deputy commissioner is there played by Joseph summer, Joseph summer. Who's like always plays like presidents. You know what I mean? He's like one of those anonymous old guys. He doesn't play a president. If your president's an important character,

he plays your president. If your president's in one scene and needs to just be watching a terrorist on the TV being like, have you made your decision? Yeah. Cause you need him to deliver. He's in one scene and needs to just be watching a terrorist on the TV being like. President, have you made your decision? Yeah, because he's in X-Men The Last Stand as the president. He's just, I could probably look how many, yeah. Anyway, or he plays your senators. Sure.

Your congressmen, et cetera. And this, he's a police commissioner. So they're trying to get the. They want to get the tape to him. Yeah. Because apparently he's one of the good guys. Yes. X-Men has a weird series of fictional presidents and real presidents.

Because they have people playing Nixon and Kennedy, right? They do, yeah. But then they also just have a bunch of generic guys like that who are just like, this is President Mr. Man. In First Class, though, right? Because it's... First Class has Kennedy. And doesn't...

Days of Picture Class has Nixon. But before then, right, they have fake presidents. Because there's also a president in X-Men 2 that Nightcrawler tries to stab. So there's a lot of different presidents. So we split into two.

Mace has to go to the commish. Not Michael Chiklish. Mm-hmm. Not Michael Chiklis. No, not. And I got excited and it turned out false flag. Lenny's gonna go up to see Philo.

Mm-hmm. But instead, he finds Philo essentially dead with another squid disc so he can get more exposition. Yeah. Which is that Max

fucking Sizemore and Julia Lewis have been having an affair and they've killed him. It's kind of a brilliant thing at this point, like filmmaking-wise, that you have a flashback, like a device that is a literal flashback in the same physical space. So he can take it off and he's in the same, it's like having a VR that was shot in the room that you're sitting in. Yes. So he can take it off and he's in the same. It's like having a VR

that was shot in the room that you're sitting in. Right. Your main character is able to learn things conclusively that he was not there to

witness. Yeah. It's like looking at a star like the light is a year old or whatever but it'll get to you eventually. Yeah that's a nice way

of putting it. But right because he walks in. Philo's basically dead. he plugs in his mini disc and how he got dead first he watches the sex scene then he realizes oh this is from the perspective of tom sizemore and then he realizes a couple tracks from ok cube great great i was gonna land that joke let's take it again okay okay cue me uh he's watching then it turns out tom sizemore's having sex with juliet lewis right and then he listens to a couple Let's take it again, okay? Okay. Cue me. He's watching.

Then it turns out Tom Sizemore's having sex with Juliette Lewis. Right, and then he listens to a couple tracks from OK Go. God damn it. Come on. No, all right, all right, all right. The song wasn't that memorable, but the video is incredible. Yes, video's incredible. Yeah. And what is...

That's a one take. Yeah, you nailed it. What is the... Congratulations. I'll admit, the dynamics at play in this are... and what is that's a one take yeah you nailed it what is congratulations I'll admit the dynamics at play in this are

a little I don't quite get it they killed Philo because he wanted to kill Faith because she knew too much about Jericho or something like I can't

I honestly don't remember this entire it's like it's so complicated and like but the basic idea is like but she does not know. She doesn't know.

That Sizemore is the dude. No. Why would she? Because she hasn't seen this. She's just like, she's just. She's just entangled with him. Yeah. And I mean, what it ends up like her, her character arc, I will say is probably a little

disappointing because she ends up just being a piece of shit. Like there's nothing. Yeah. There's no redeeming thing about her. She's not a villain. She doesn't have any motivation either she just sucks her motivation is to suck

she's kind of a red herring cause you think like we're saying you think oh maybe she's like this femme fatale she'll be a femme fatale maybe he'll get back together with her

nothing like that happens but it's a little annoying she's sort of a pawn sure she gets basically sent out of the room and then Tom Sizemore kills Philo by shooting him

and is like I'm gonna frame you for this when you watch the squid of like their happy times together, she's not really talking much, but you get the sense that they like each other and there's like chemistry there or whatever. Yeah.

And then from the moment you're actually dealing with her as a character in the present, she just sucks. Yeah. She hates him. She's really cold. Right. And just like deliberately cruel. Right.

And like needlessly. I mean, I guess he is like kind of stalking her. So I guess that would be pretty annoying. Yeah. And like, right. You don't have to be nice to your exes. Although, you know, good, good move. A nice menschy move.

Yeah. But it also feels like you're waiting for her to like warm up a little bit and be like, I'm going to remind you why we fell in love in the first place. But the whole movie, it's just like, oh no, she sucks. You never should have been dating her in the first place. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's why the film is more about growth

than most movies with that kind of dynamic because it is like you know no you shouldn't you should

like should not go back to the thing that you like that you are reminiscing about for sure this is a step forward for him

that's the kind of person he should be with yeah but I do like that his fight scene with Tom Sizemore yeah because it is just two boys

throwing each other around a hotel room. There's nothing choreographed about this. And he kind of just gets him, right? He throws him over the balcony. And Sizemore grabs his tie and he's like, I'm taking you with me. I think he sells that line really well.

Tom Sizemore, good at desperation. Exactly. Where you're like, oh yeah, this guy gets that he's going to die. Yeah. He just wants to be vindictive in his last moment. Yeah.

Wait, so. The only problem I have is I was not surprised, not when I watched this movie for the first time in college and not now when it turns out Sizemore's a bad guy.

But he's Tom Sizemore. He's Tom Sizemore. Yeah. I mean, I guess you would hope that... People are playing against type to a degree.

That's true. And there's like, you know, Rafe is, you know, maybe he'd be doing something else. It's the Wonder Woman thing where the whole time you kept on leaning over

to me and going like, David Thewlis is up to no good. No, you were saying about Danny Houston. You were like, Danny Houston's such obvious casting, they're tipping their hand a lot.

My joke was, is he the bad guy? Right. And it ends up like the movie is playing you in that way. Yeah. It would be nice if like, yeah,

Tom Sizemore, the only doubt you have about whether or not he'd be the bad guy is whether or not the movie would be that obvious to cast Tom Sizemore as the bad guy.

Yeah, exactly. She just loves Tom Sizemore. Yeah. So, what's going on in the rest of this party? So, there's like a fancy party for like

the fancy people in the hotel i guess like on the maybe not is it in a penthouse or something or is it on the ground floor is it inside the hotel i think it's on the i can't remember um so so there's that then outside the the the people the the the peons of Los Angeles are having a total rave in the middle of downtown. Right, in the streets. Did you read about this? No.

Tell me, what do you mean? Oh, boy. Okay. Wait, okay. So, the scene where the crowd celebrates the turn of the new century at the end of the film was shot at the corner of 5th and Flower Streets

between the Westin Bonaventure Hotel and the Los Angeles Public Library. Over 50 off-duty police officers were hired to control an assembled crowd of 10,000 people who had to pay $10 in advance to attend the event. The filmmakers also hired rave

promoters Moss Jacobs and Philip Lane to produce performances featuring Aphex Twin, D-Lite, as well as all the cyber techno bands they could garner. That's actually, I gotta say, really smart producing. Yeah, 10 bucks? To create a circumstance where extras have to pay to be in the movie. Yeah, but like put on a real concert.

But it's basically right. We're going to have a concert. It's going to be the most techno concert there ever was. It's going to be the most, I already forgot the name, retina? Retinal fetish? Retinal fetish. Retinal fet name. Retina? Retinal fetish. Retinal fetish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Retinal fetish.

Even better than retinal fetish. It was reported that a total of $75,000 was spent on the event, and half of the 1,300 rooms in the Bonaventure were rented out. The event started at 9 p.m. on a Saturday night and ended shortly before it's scheduled, and at 4 a.m. as five people were hospitalized for suffering overdoses of the drug ecstasy. Oh, I'm stunned to hear this. Yeah, really? 1995? 10,000 people? There were some ecstasy ODs?

I mean, I hope they were all okay, obviously. I cannot believe they let her make this movie. It's insane! It's so crazy! How did they fucking let her make this movie? This is a 20th century Fox film, just to be clear. And they threw a rave in the middle of it. It's not Fox Searchlight? No, no no no

but it is it looks fantastic it's wonderful it's an expensive looking movie it looks very expensive like there's a lot of people

yeah partying and these huge lights that say like 2000 on them like counting down the new year it's like such a

it's such a spectacle I love it and then there's this I mean I find the the finale finale really scary where mace is getting beaten up uh by the cops and no one sort of knows how what to do you know it's i mean obviously she's just all by herself and bigelow's trying to draw that i think a straight line yeah to real events it's just gonna happen again like yeah and then there is this hopeful maybe too easy but whatever i mean it's a movie uh note where the commissioner's like uh you know arrest these men yeah like you

know yeah because i guess he went off and watched he watched this tape right right i mean the tape's pretty incriminating yeah but uh and i like that the same cops who are basically sanctioning dino freon fickner wailing on her are then like oh okay you know like it's not like there are new cops who come in to arrest the bad cops. It's because there are these cops who are in like military uniforms with like helmets and stuff. They're just like okay no

okay I guess we'll arrest them. And so is it D'Onofrio reaches for a gun and gets himself shot and Fickner shoots himself. It's pretty gruesome. Well, they're bad cops. They're no good guys. No good, very bad, don't do it.

I will say this. I found this movie so dense, and I don't say that in a bad way. There's just so much fucking going on in terms of the story and what she's getting at and the style of it. It earns its run time. Agreed. 220 is the run time here. There's a lot of stuff in it.

Agreed. But I'll say, like, this is the first time I think I've felt, while doing a miniseries, that I need to re-watch a movie before we do our final rankings. Like, I don't feel I would be equipped to rank this within her filmography just because I watched it when I was tired and I don't feel like I fully comprehended everything she's doing. This is my favorite movie of hers without

too much. Right now I have no idea where I would place it. Alright. I like the movie. It is very strange. But I just feel like it's the kind of movie that you need to sort of keep coming back to to really reckon with in a lot of ways. No, I'm a little disappointed I didn't even get to rewatch it

before doing this podcast with you guys. I mean I didn't watch all of it but it's, but it takes a long time to sit through. It takes a lot out of you watching this movie. Oh, it does. This movie could do with an intermission if I was seeing it in a theater. I'm not saying it needs an intermission. That's ridiculous. It's not a slog, though.

It's just a lot of cooking. It's a lot of stuff. I was saying to Producer Bane before you guys came. Perdue orane but go on to do her bane i'm sorry no it's fine it's fine it's fine don't worry about it so embarrassed you correct me i'm strange dos i correct you uh but i was just we were just talking about like the fact that you feel like it's got that thing of like the false ending or like a second ending before they go downtown and go to the party. But then once that starts, I'm like, oh, I totally want to be here for this part. Like this is going to be really exciting.

Right. You know, it doesn't feel like, oh God, another act. Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. It's, but nonetheless, this movie, because we're going to play the box office now, was a colossal bump. It cost $42 million to make. I'm sure it cost more money to market and so on and so forth.

It came out October 6th, 1995. It grossed $7.9 million. That is bad. The weekend before, they had released it in one theater and did a pretty good per-screen average. That's weird for them to release a movie like this in one theater.

The question I have is, do you want me to do the one theater? You know what? Let's do the proper wide. We'll do the proper. They're actually very similar anyway, so it doesn't matter. This movie though,

well, we'll talk about it afterwards. Okay. So what number does Strange Days open at? When it expands, number eight. Jeez. $3.6 million. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Yep.

This is Columbus Day weekend. So what were you going to say? No, I was just going to say, I've seen those posters, but I just can't even imagine what a campaign for this would be. Right. Well, those posters, as much as I like those images, those headshots they have of the actors, those posters feel like a shrug of a marketing department that's like, I don't know how

to fucking sell this movie. Put the three actors on it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I love that poster, but yeah. It's a well-shot image, but it gives you no context.

This is the kind of, you know how they do all those redesign posters and special edition posters of things? A lot of those are things that already

have great posters. This one should have. This could use a Mondo. My pitch, it's a Lisa Frank. It incorporates that design into the poster. It's a Trapper Keeper.

With Lisa Frank creatures on it. One thing I want to say is because I was going to say Our finest poster designer. Our finest poster designer. Our finest graphic designer. He's the best. Okay, one thing you want to say. Is because when I was thinking about this, I was like, gee, you know, it's an R-rated movie.

But then you look at the top 10. Every single movie in the top 10 is rated R. Whoa. Because it's October. And it's just back in the day when Hollywood was like, well, the family movies have their place on the schedule. The PG-13 movies have their place. But R-rated movies are bread and butter. And it was like you only released populist.

I'm sorry. There's one movie that's not R-rated. Okay, that's crazy. PG-13. But like populist four-quadrant movies you release in the summer or over the holidays, and then at this time of year, you'd either have movies for grownups or children's films. Cut and dry. Yeah, there was much more of like siloing. Anyway, so number one

at the box office is an out of the box, somewhat surprising hit, a crime thriller, a very hard R that in its fourth week, and I think it's been like number one every week. Seven? Yeah, it's made 57 million dollars

seven David Fincher's seven surprise hit and it stayed the fuck in there huge hit made 100 million dollars

in 95 nuts for that movie that movie is also yeah very 90s very 90s what do you think of seven

Emily I have not seen seven in any time recently not since high school or something. I don't know. I don't think my opinion on it is valid anymore. Yeah, like I feel like I'm like totally fine with Seven.

I think it's pretty hard to- Yes. It's also like hard to put it in the context of what it must have felt like coming out at that point in time if you'd seen it in theaters opening weekend. Like I watch it now and I'm like, okay, yeah, it's solid. It's well done.

Sure. Right. It's a much imitated movie these days as well. Obviously, right. But seven. Okay, number two is a cruddy action movie starring one super established star who's maybe a little on the wane at this point and one up-and-coming European star. Ah.

Interesting. Is the European star, are they both male? Yeah. And this movie was written by some friends of ours. Written by some friends of ours? I mean, you know.

People we've covered. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. It is Assassins? Richard Donner's Assassins. Written by the Wachowskis, Antonio Banderas, and then who's the main person in it? Kurt Russell?

Sly Stallone. Sly Stallone, right. Which was a bomb. Huge bomb. Made $30 million on a $50 budget. See, I don't even, like, I didn't even remember that was a Stallone movie. I just knew it was Banderas and Wachowskis. It's not a movie. Yeah.

I don't think there's, like, a lot to that movie. It's like, what if there were assassins? Never seen it. Probably will never watch it. Julianne Moore's in it. Oh, yeah. Young Julianne Moore. All right.

Number three is a really crazy movie, which I kind of like. It's like an epic, quasi-epic crime movie directed by these hot young directors who had had a surprise hit. Two. Yeah, they're a pair. They're a pair of directors. Are they brothers? Yes. Are they the Coen brothers?

No. They're brothers. This movie, I mean, I'm sure you know it. Oh, the Hughes brothers? The Hughes brothers, Albert and Alan. Dead Presidents? Dead Presidents. I've never seen it. That, the Hughes Brothers? The Hughes Brothers, Albert and Allen. Dead Presidents? Dead Presidents. I've never seen it.

That's a pretty good movie. Okay. Which is their blank check after Menace to Society. Not that it costs like a lot of money. Yeah. But it's this sort of like Vietnam movie about people coming back after, you know, like back to the Bronx. about people coming back to the Bronx and how America let that neighborhood down, let that borough down.

That sounds good. The rise of gang violence. It's a flawed movie, but I think it's a pretty interesting movie. They've certainly had weird careers. What weekend are you looking at? I'm looking at October 13th. Oh, 13th. 1995.

Why, Emily? Are you trying to cheat? No, I just, I'm not playing. I never, I would never get any of these, so I just want to know what they are out of curiosity.

It's Columbus Day weekend, 1995. A big movie going on. Well, this is what I'm saying, which is apparently just like R-rated movie time. I mean, that's why like

7 at the time was one of the only September movies to end up making 100 million dollars like a September release to actually cross 100 and now we have

September movies that open over 100 well that's a new that's a new phenomenon welcome September baby so number 4 is a

it's based on a I think it's based on a hit book sort of like a weepy drama I've never seen it it's got ladies in it multiple ladies in it?

like 400 ladies in it there's so many ladies in this movie it's not like fried green tomatoes it's not steel magnolias no that's earlier I really hadn't thought about this movie. It's from a female director who has recently made a terrible movie. Recently in our current day timeline?

Yes. She made a terrible movie that came out this year. No, a couple years ago. I mean, you wouldn't even remember it or know who she, like, I'd be surprised if you know who she was. Is it Waiting to Exhale? No. That's a Forrest Whitaker movie. Oh, uh isn't it am i wrong i think so and he did whole floats as well right yeah he was the king of the weepies for a couple years made some good weepies uh it's got a lot of women in it stars an actress we both are very fond of

uh it's just got the most goofy, hilarious title. Yeah. It's a real, like, I feel like it's a bit of a punchline to, like, 90s kind of softcore dramas. How do you describe the real... There is a genre of this kind of title. Yeah. That I feel like Salmon Fishing in the Yemen is like... So it's kind of like

a sentence title like that exactly salmon fishing in the yemen is a good uh good uh partner to this one yeah if you did like a rep screening series movies with full sentence titles yeah or like full phrases right right yeah an entire yeah like the divine uh secrets of the yaya sisterhood yeah i feel like i have divine secrets of the I.I. Sisterhood. I feel like I have the meter of the title in my head, and I can't think of what the words are. I got to give it to you because we're running out of time. Give me the actress.

Winona Ryder. Oh, fuck. Oh, wow. If you don't have it from this, then I can't help you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just give me this. How to make an American quilt. Right, of course.

Of course, of course, of course. America was asking, Hollywood, tell us, how do we make an American quilt. Right, of course. Of course, of course, of course. America was asking, Hollywood, tell us, how do we make an American quilt? And then Hollywood answered. Everyone's like, oh, actually, I'm good. Yeah, no, it's fine. It did okay. Yeah. Let me just, oh, the cast of this movie.

Winona Ryder, Anne Bancroft, Ellen Burstyn, who once told Griffin to try silence. Kate Nelligan, Alfre Woodard, Maya Angelou, Kate Capshaw, Samantha Mathis, and then Rip Torn is hanging out there. Rip Torn, the only person whose name

is two tenses of the same action. We think you've made that joke before. I'll make it as many times as I can. Number five, opening this week, is a sex thriller that is a sexy sex thriller of 1995 starring some of the sexiest actors. Woody Harrelson?

No. Good guess. I thought it was, whatchamacallit, the Demi Moore, Robert Redford. Indecent Proposal? Right, it's not that. No, it's a real sex thriller. Disclosure? No, good guess

it was a movie made by a TV star who was making it was his first big jump into movies oh is it David Caruso and Jade

Jade some fantasies go too far that's the tagline too Jade William Friedkin joint

yeah starring our favorite David Caruso no Linda Fiorentino yeah the queen of 90s like pot boilers like Friedkin joint. Yeah. Starring our favorite. David Caruso? No. Linda Fiorentino. Yeah. The queen of 90s, like, potboilers.

Like, sex potboilers. Still, for my money, the single best joke in 40-Year-Old Virgin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To be like David Caruso and Jade. Oh, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is a good joke. Chaz Palminteri, Michael Biehn.

Yeah, some of our sexiest actors. So, that's the top five. So so what i wanted to say was that yeah this has three movies opening if you count strange days that are notorious sex not sexy but like explicit r-rated these are adult i really like take issue with with strangers being billed as an erotic thriller i'm not really it's tough to lump them all together but i think but hollywood lumped them together is these movies that were like too much sexy grown-up too hard art like too too excessive jade the scarlet letter and that movie are all movies where it was like no we gotta reel it back we gotta make broader audience movies and you can't just like get him in the theater with like well and a big box office

sea change happens a month later the top film of 1995 comes out and I would say it's one of the movies that changed the film industry. Which is? Toy Story. Toy Story. But you know what? Yeah, that's so interesting. Right?

Because once you make animated films that adults like. No, no. Yeah, I know what you're saying. That's true. Some of the other movies in this are To Die For, which is another,

it's more of a comic sex thriller. Yeah, a great movie. That movie is awesome. It rules. You got Devil in a Blue Dress, which is a movie I'm a huge fan of. Yeah, I've never seen that. The Carl Franklin.

Yeah, I like Carl Franklin. Sort of neo-noir with Denzel and Don Cheadle, who's so good. Good actor. Halloween, I'm going to say five? Yeah, because this is pre... The one with Paul Rudd.

Oh, right, yeah. The Curse of Michael Myers. Because H2O comes out a couple years after this, right? say five yeah because the one with michael the one with uh paul rubb oh right yeah the curse of michael myers h2o comes out a couple years after this right it's the sixth sorry okay uh anyway so yeah um another interesting piece of context i don't think we've talked about it all for this please serve it up i'm kind of sore that it came out a week after the verdict of the oj simpson trial oh that's actually huge that's a huge. That's a huge, and it was while they were making it, that was when the Bronx Chase happened. Yeah, man.

That's crazy. It's interesting to look at the post-O.J. box office. Not that I don't think it probably actually had that much impact. Yeah, but I guess who knows? But the fact that it's all R-rated movies in the top 10 the week after that, it feels very dark. And Angela Bassett is married to, who can tell me?

In real life? Yeah. Still? Yeah. Who's she married to? Now I want to double check. Yeah, no, yeah. Courtney B. Vance.

Oh, really? Who so wonderfully played Johnny Cochran in American Crime. They've been married for 20 years. I didn't know. That's a fantastic couple. There you go. It is interesting, though. I mean, you were saying like this movie is so primed for a reevaluation, but it also

feels like the kind of movie where it's like, how have they not like restored this and made this readily available? Like you look at how the last two years there was like this OJ wave of like, oh, this is the cyclical thing. This whole trial represented this thing that was going on in our culture and now it's reared its head again and reflects so many different aspects

of our relationship with the media and fame and wealth and race and success and power and gender dynamics and violence. And this movie is like all of that shit. Why can't we watch it legally? Yeah, no. Oh, just totally. Two successful OJ TV shows. I do't we watch it legally? Yeah, no. Oh, totally. Two successful OJ TV shows.

I do think, we've talked about this off mic, like the Lightstorm thing might be part of it. James Cameron, movies he's produced, he likes to make sure like the re-releases

are remastered and like, you know, properly transferred or whatever. What the fuck is he waiting for? No, it's the same, like why don't we have an abyss? I think he takes forever on it.

I don't know if that's true of this movie because I don't know. Yeah, how handsome does he really want to be with it? I have no idea. I hear he's going to re-release Strange Days in 3D in one theater. I mean, I have actually not looked at all

into how she feels about it, her feeling about its legacy or anything like that. I think she's very proud of it. It's a great movie. She seems to speak highly of it and thinks it was the movie she wanted to make and it totally was like

an albatross around her neck. It was. I mean, yeah, because, you know, she doesn't make another movie for five years and then that movie is The Weight of Water.

Right, which doesn't come out for two years. Which doesn't come out for two more years. So she doesn't have a movie in theater for seven more years. Two months after the release of

her highest budget film, which is also her biggest flop. Sure, K-19. I mean, combine with this. This movie's a pretty big flop, though. You're obviously experts in people who make bad movies and

get punished for it and never get to make movies again. It happens a lot, right? All the time, directors make horrible mistakes and lose lots of money and never get to work again. That's what this podcast is about. Yeah, right. It's like a...

Right. I don't know if you guys are picking up on this little note of sarcasm. That's the end of the story, right? She made Stranger Things, it bombed. She made an indie,

it bombed, and then she did a big submarine blockbuster, But I'm saying like, in all seriousness, in the course of this podcast, has there been like a five-year break?

No. No. It's very rare. For people who made much worse. If you look at like Shyamalan who made like four bombs in a row, he made a movie every couple of years. Practically. Cameron Crowe had a bit of a gap in there,

but I don't think it was as long from Elizabethtown to We Bought a Zoo is maybe five years. That's six years, but that might be Cameron Crowe's. That seemed to be more his doing. Cameron Crowe seems to have a lot of shit in his head. Right. Cause Tom Cruise had to tell him to make We Bought a Zoo. Right.

Which is a sentence that one rarely says. You imagine that she was trying to make movies regularly. And then there's even, I mean, I don't know, she talks about the way to water.

It's hard to, we got to wrap up. Sure. But there's a long gap between K-19 and Hurt Locker as well. Yes. Right.

We'll talk about that on the Hurt Locker episode. That's a longer break. That's a long break. And that is, I think that is her toughest period in terms of trying to get money together for a movie. And then she wins a fucking Oscar. She does.

It's quite a story. It's an amazing comeback story. Yep, yep, yep. We'll talk about that another time though. Emily, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. We're still, this neck and neck race of you, J.D. Amato and Richard Lawson

all being tied as our like three Yeah, recurring guests. Our best friends of the show, our favorite guests, the fan favorite guests. Of course you'll be back. Is there a poll? Oh, come on. We would never. But if you want to start a poll, you can do it.

Thank you. It's always fun. You've been doing unbelievable work at Vulture, and I'm not just saying that. I have been really blown away by a couple of your reviews. I feel like you've had a couple things. The one I cite all the time, your analogy in your Fate of the Furious review, when I was trying to explain to people why I was a little underwhelmed by that movie, the idea that Jordana Brewster and Paul Walker were the bread in the sandwich

and you got a bunch of loose meat if you don't have them there. How they were never the most exciting characters, but they weirdly held the whole thing together. They were the bread and the mayonnaise, I believe. I quote it incessantly. The best take I have read from a film critic all year. All right.

We're done, right? That's it. We're done, of course. This podcast is brought to you by Mack Weldon. I want to mention that. Yeah, look, they brought it to you in the same way they're going to bring those clothes to you. Yeah, that's right. And if they can clean up Tom Sizemore, they can clean you up.

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At the time of this recording, our garbage nightmare, horrible cretinous president today tweeted about the U.S. not being able to aid Puerto Rico forever. So we as fellow not terrible human beings need to do our part in assisting with relief efforts. And we're asking that our listeners donate to any of the proper organizations such as the Hispanic Foundation, the Puerto Rican Hurricane Relief Fund, the Food Bank of Puerto Rico.

Now we have a fellow blankie in Puerto Rico named Emilio, and on behalf of myself and hashtag the two friends, we just want to offer our support and prayers to his family and loved ones.