Blank Check with Griffin & David - Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street with Michael Cerveris

Episode Date: March 24, 2019

Tony award winning actor, Michael Cerveris, joins Griffin and David to discuss 2007's film adaption of the renowned Stephen Sondheim musical, Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street. Why did Tim Burton cut The Ballad of Sweeney Todd? Does Michael have a take on National Treasure: Book of Secrets? Timothy Spall goes big? Together they examine how the film holds up against the live production, the trailer lacking singing, letter writing with Sondheim and Michael's experience portraying Sweeney Todd in the 2005 Broadway revival.  And check out Michael Cerveris' band, Loose Cattle!

blank check with griffin and david blank check with griffin and david don't know what to say or to expect all you need to know is that the name of the show is blank check at last my podcast is complete again. He's not a pirate. I can't get that laugh. His voice is so weird. At last. At last.

Yeah. The one I wanted to find was Alan Rickman saying you gandered four times in a row. Oh. You gandered. Right. You gandered. You gandered. I can't do it. I can't do Rickman.

You can't do Rickman and also you don't remember the line. Right. But you know that part where he catches Jamie Campbell Bower? At my ward. Right. And he just keeps on saying gandered over and over again. And that's my new ASMR. I had forgotten what a sort of

pleasurable physical response I have to hearing Alan Rickman say gandered five times in a row. You gandered at her. Yes sir, you gandered. I'm just Uganda. Well, right. Is that what he's really talking about? Uganda.

I, you know, Alan Rickman, obviously, we lost him too soon. Sure. Still a very, very tragic loss to the artistic community. I am happy that before he left us, someone figured out that he needed to say Gander. It was like, what's the thing we haven't given him the chance to do on screen? And Burton said, I got two for you. One, say Gander five times in a row.

Two, play a CGI caterpillar. Right. We'll sneak that in under the wire. A thing I forgot is that this movie shares like five cast members with Alice in Wonderland. You like rolled them over. He always does that though. Well, they're here. Yes.

Yeah, exactly. I'm going to be making an out. Right. Yeah. Right. That's his vibe. And I think this is when he's like doubled down on London, which David, you probably don't understand this, but Tim Burton.

There's no place like London. Lived in London for a while. Right. I mean, you understand it because Sweeney Todd lives in London, but you don't have any personal connection to this idea. He lives in a very evocative, real London. You know, very much

like the real place. Yeah, I grew up in London. What? What are you talking about? Our guest is perplexed. 1995, I moved to London. I've seen productions of Sweeney Todd in London. I think of the Royal Opera House.

That's where they did it. The shock and awe on our guest's face. And it's genuine because no one can act this well. Two Tonys be damned. Certainly not me. No one can act this well well we have a very exciting guest but you should introduce the show first

actually it's called Blank Check with Griffin and David right it's about filmographies directors who have massive success early on in their career given a series of blank checks

to make whatever crazy passion projects they want sometimes those checks clear sometimes they bounce baby I can't do it it's close it's because I'm doing

I'm going too far into Jack Sparrow. Baby. Baby. Well, he's got, he's treading that line too. I mean, he's, yeah, it's a broad accent.

You got a touch of the Sparrow in this performance. Sure. This is just sort of like depressed Jack Sparrow. Right, like Jack Sparrow if he was on a prison ship for 50 years.

Right. It was all drained out of him. A Johnny Depp style wine spiral. Sure. Right. Yeah. It's a miniseries on the films of Tim Burton. it was all drained out of him a Johnny Depp style wine spiral sure we're a miniseries on the films of Tim Burton it's called Podward Scissorcast and today we have a very special guest

we had teased when we were getting ready to do this season we said we have booked a guest for this episode in the very loose way that we booked by six months in advance going would you hypothetically want to do this? are you free in the next year? Sometime in the next year. Who has

won one of the major awards? We want to keep it vague so that people can speculate. Has won one of the major awards of the performing arts. But in fact, he has won two of the same one. Of the same one. Of the same one.

That's pretty cool. I mean, I have zero of all four. Yeah, exactly. You got a double T. Right. Yeah. You have a ta-ta. Michael Cerveris is our guest today.

Hello. Who has played Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street. I have. And when we were like, who do we want to get on? I had this lightning bolt of like... Right. Pada LuPone. And right.

She said... Recommended me to you. And you asked her and she gave you a withering look. She gave me a withering look. She told me to turn off my cell phone. And then... She reminded me that

I know you and we've worked together. And you played Sweet Todd. Yes. Tick with Mikey. We're doing that tick thing. Yeah. She reminded me that I know you and we've worked together. And you played Sweeney Todd. Tick with Mikey. We're doing that tick thing. But I like this movie a lot. I feel like David likes this movie a little less than I do. I love the show Sweeney Todd. So I think when I saw this movie, which is I hadn't seen it since I last saw it in theaters.

I was like, wow, I still love Sweeney Todd. And I and it was violent. And I sort of appreciated how violent it was. Those were my two big takeaways. Now, I had never seen the show before seeing this movie. So I like this movie a lot, but it exists as its own object to me. That's interesting. In that

case, it's probably almost great to see this. I mean, it's still 80% of one of the great musicals. Like one of the best shows of all time. But I've also spent much of the last 10 years having people go like, but you don't understand. You haven't seen the show. Like getting so frustrated when I try to defend it. So you still haven't seen the show?

You didn't see any of it? Still haven't. They had that revival recently where they made you a pie. I know. Yeah. I know. Shamefully. But so I felt like we need to have someone on who not just is like, you know, a fan of the show, but has like literally lived in it to explain what this movie is or isn't doing correctly at different times.

Because I have no understanding of any of that. Right. I just like that it's. You know what you like. I know what I like. I know what i like i know what i like but i also i i have been in the other position a thousand times where i like covet this like beloved object and someone adapts it poorly and it drives me insane i spend like i go out into the streets and rip my clothes off sure you ring a bell yeah yeah yeah right you won't believe what they did to thundercats you're like ringing a bell

so how how long uh was the uh production that you were in how long did it run um it ran for a year on broadway okay yeah did you do it off broadway as well uh there was no off it was in london though the same the same uh conception right uh directed by john doyle also there and with where you play the instruments yeah that was the big case, that was the big change, yeah. It was an ensemble of nine instead of, you know, the 35 people who had done it originally. And the orchestra was just us. So the orchestrations were all changed

and it was, you know, it was more of a kind of chamber piece, which Sondheim always said was his original intention. It's pretty intimate. It's a lot of, you know, the songs are often just in a room, like two people singing to each other. Like it's not, it's a lot of you know the songs are often just in a room like two people singing to each other like it's not i mean there's no dancing i have to imagine stage it is

still mostly set within the shop uh yeah yeah i mean it's sort of one unit right of set and it was how prince's idea to kind of you know open it up into this sort of uh you know allegory of of the industrial world grinding up people. The original production had this giant contraption. I mean, I've never seen it, but I've always heard about it. It was the first Broadway show I ever saw. Really? Oh, wow.

I saw it in previews right before it had opened. So people didn't really know what it was going to be. People were not prepared for it, right, yeah. And it was not super warmly received at the time. This is my biggest question for you I'm sorry I'm interrupting you

to cover for the fact that my phone started ringing to make it look like this was all in control acting is reacting baby like it was critically fairly well liked

it won awards yeah it did but it wasn't it was a very polarizing it's not cherished the way it is now

sure you know like it's so cherished the way it is now sure you know like it's so many people's favorite musical of all time sure maybe their favorite song

right and sometimes Courier is a lot of that where it's a lot of like why didn't we give this the respect it deserved I mean it wasn't

the first musical I saw but like seeing the production of Assassins that you were in and won your first Tony for

was like one of those for me where it was like a total light bulb. Like, I didn't realize you could do this. Yeah. Everything about it. That was my experience, too. I mean, I had grown up sort of being in community in musicals because I thought the things that I'm interested in and the, and you know, what little talents I have is not really destined for, for, you know, Oklahoma or the music. It was sort of, cause you're a very talented musician and a very talented actor,

but in terms of what you're interested in, you were feeling like, well, I don't want to do musical comedy. Yeah. I enjoy going to see it, but I don't think I have much to offer. And then I saw Len Cariou in this production and, you know, there was this fantastic, terrifying actor in this really dark and funny, you know, piece. And I thought, well, maybe there is a world where, you know, my tastes.

So this is like the Thunderbolt moment in a way. Right. Yeah. Now, was it a thing for you where then that became a like, oh, God, what if I ever got to do that? Like, was it a notion of like, I hope I get to play Hamlet someday. I hope I get to play, you know? I mean, it was in a broad, broad way. I mean, at the time, of course, in a broad way, I identified with Victor Garber as Antony.

Like, that was the role because, you know, age-wise, that was what I was closer to. So I sort of thought, you know, someday maybe I'll get to do that. And when the chance to do this came around, it was so much sooner than I ever expected it would be. Because I had this idea of Sweeney being much older than me. And I realized— How old was Len Carey? Like in his 40s maybe? Len Carey was younger than I was when I actually did it,

but he looked so much older. Like their vision of the character was much more kind of haggard and world-weary. And then Bob Gunton played him in the revival, which is another sort of character actor guy, like the warden from Shawshank. Those are both guys who are wonderful actors and are handsome men but have

old guy face and always had old guy face. There's that effect too. I'm sure they made them both up a ton but you look at pictures of young Bob Gunton and you're like right he always looked like Bob Gunton. He had to kind of grow into it. So it's like he's maybe best fit to do in theater roles like that

that are sort of like agelessly cranky. To be totally dismissive. So what you were talking about, the opportunity comes around. You're younger than you. That's sort of 2004, 2005, somewhere in there. Yeah. Yeah. 2004, I guess, was Assassin.

So this was 2005, 2006. Right. Yeah. But you were happy to do, so this was 2005, 2006. Right. Yeah. But you were happy to do it. I was thrilled. Sure. And so grateful that John Doyle's take on it was so different from the original because I had worn the vinyl LP out learning every nuance of it.

And I saw it seven times on Broadway. I saw George Hearn and Len Cario do it. And I just kept going back through the couple years that it was on. And so I knew it inside out, like that version. And I was already competing with my memory of those guys to begin with. Yeah. So it was such a helpful thing to me that that john just wanted to go back to the beginning and and explore and question everything about it i mean

everybody involved in our production revered that original version it wasn't like oh we're gonna make our own or we're gonna you know solve it or something right like it wasn't something broken yeah fixing no but but you know, we, we realized even with things like the, um, in the worst pies number, um, we started staging it the first day and we had like a rolling pin.

And Patty Lepone, who was playing Mrs. Lovett had a rolling pin and a, um, and, uh, dough and flour and stuff. And we,

and as we went along, it was like, well, she never actually talks about making pies. She talks we went along, it was like, well, she never actually talks about making pies. She talks about the pies, but it's Angela Lansbury's. Yeah. Angela Lansbury's version is so indelibly etched in our mind

that we think, well, you've got to have a rolling pin and you've got to have flour. But actually none of that is taking place in the lyric, in the song. And in the end, we got rid of all of that and it just sort of reduced everything down to its bare essentials.

So you didn't take anything for granted. You sort of re-examined every... Yeah, every assumption that we had. Reset, I guess, back to like... And wasn't Pirelli played by a woman? Is that... Yes, right. Yeah, Donalyn Champlin.

Yeah, who learned the accordion to be able to play the accordion I mean they're it's like fiendishly talented people all around me I would sit there some nights just like there were sections where I wasn't playing when I was just sort of sitting to the side and watching Lauren Molina who's playing Joanna sitting on on a chair on top of a casket on top of sawhorses with her cello, not just playing Joanna and singing Joanna, but playing the cello part at the same time. Both playing Joanna and playing Joanna. Sure. I mean, I guess you've maybe sort of just answered this through, I mean, talking about the process and Doyle forcing you to sort of reset.

And, you know, I, I had all my like mental gymnastics with the tick because it's like, here's this thing where I've grown up with this, this character I know, but like this script that I'm playing is new. Right.

So I would just engage with it as like, these lines have never been said by a guy before, so I don't have to worry about it. Right. But if you've listened to a soundtrack a thousand times and you've seen it seven times on broadway and you have those specific like sort of choices in your head i mean etch not just you saw it and someone did it well but it's like yeah yeah right how do you forget you know the meter you know their pitch you know everything yeah is there like do you put active work into uh making sure

you do something different than them? Do you try to just block it out of your mind? No. Again, I think it was because of the way John worked. It made it possible to kind of forget all of that pretty quickly. And like you're saying, going back to this new script, even though the words were the same as has been said before, it all sounded different because the orchestrations were different.

We were playing, you know, the instruments. And it was also different because John works in this fascinating way. Everything's just kind of developed so organically. And he has, because of the changes in the orchestration, some of the actors weren't playing the same instruments that the actors in London had played. So that meant that they were free to do different things. We were also sort of building the set through the show as well. Like we would move the ladders and we would move the coffins. So the direction would be like we would just start at the top of the show and just kind of stage just minute moment

by moment uh as we went along and so john would say all right i need you to take this bucket full of blood and it needs to get to the top of that ladder um by the time joanna sings and then it was sort of up to you whether you grabbed the bucket and ran up the ladder and then just sat up there and waited until Joanna sang. Or whether you sort of hung out down at the bottom and just ran up at the last minute to be there in time for Joanna. That's really cool. Or, you know, you could kind of do something in between. And you could do that on a given night differently every time. So everything you did was related to what everybody else on stage was doing, which started to take your attention off yourself and what you were doing.

You just had like a bunch of tasks. That's really interesting. It was so great. Because of the take on that production, the actors are inheriting a lot of jobs that are often done by other people on stage where you have to stay kind of not mechanized but precisely timed because well that's connected to someone with a pulley right or a guy with a tuba yeah but then when you're the guy with the tuba right you can pull it right you can sort of still like live in the moment in the way you're doing as that's wow that's really more than usual and i think it made for that's an amazing ensemble uh because we had to listen and feel and breathe

with everybody else on stage. And even to play the music, we didn't have a conductor, so we just had to listen to each other. And often, we're not facing the rest of the company,

so you had to be able to kind of focus with the back of your head. So it changed the way you acted, the way you listened, the way you did everything. Okay, so this is why I'm fascinated. also you have to like act and sing as well right you know like but but the great thing is that you're spending so much of your conscious time focusing on these

detailed things that it actually lets you you're very natural and saying much better because you aren't you know doubting yourself every second It's that weird fucking thing of just like how much obstacles actually help. Obstacle or opportunity. Well, right, that's the thing. But like all those like nightmare scenarios where you're just like, oh fuck, like this ran long and we're losing the light

and we have like two minutes to get this scene done. Somehow that ends up being the best scene. And then the things where you're like, give me all the time I need. It's just like garbage sucked yeah yeah yeah i like uh you know i i can say this because we shot in a very weird way uh on season two so uh you will not be able to uh necessarily ascertain the shooting order uh But I was like, you know, I'm a very neurotic person. And I was... Are you from England too?

Scloosey. Here's a little scloosey, a hot scoop. I'm a very neurotic person. And I went into season two and I was like, here's my new approach for season two. I'm going to be very calm. Oh, right. You're sort of trying to put that out there in the universe? Yes. Right.

Right. Like your hot David thing. I was like, you're sort of trying to put that out there in the universe. Yeah, right, right. Like your hot David thing. I was like, David said he's gonna become hot this year. Hot David 2019. Right, and 2018 just came from the gym. Yeah, was the year. Okay, come on. Keep it in your pants. Nothing going on there. Literally, put it back in your pants. Ben, squeeze my arm.

But I was like, I'm gonna be really calm and I'm just not gonna let myself get worked up and I'm gonna try to be relaxed and breathe and prepared and not let myself get backed into corners or any of that. And then inevitably, the show started becoming crazy as it does. Sure. Well, and it's built around your being neurotic. So you must have really thrown everybody else. Maybe they were like, this is too easy for him.

Let's put the screws on him. I remember the exact order we shot stuff in and when I watched the first five episodes and I saw the pieces that were filmed in those first ten days, I go, wow, I am not good here. Like, I am not good. And then the days where I was losing my mind and I was like, I can't even act. I'm so stressed out about all this stuff. I'm fucking killing it.

Like Michael says, you gotta be stressed out. Arthur's a stressed out guy. Right. But also that thing of just like, if you have other things to worry about, it forces you to just make the sort of seat-your-pants decisions, which if you are connected to the character, the material, or any of that, right. If you have sort of the basic operating chops or whatever, then it's probably a better performance than the one where you're second guessing yourself and thinking about it and being meticulous about it. And you're launching it. So you live in this show for a year. You live in this character for a year.

You're really like putting your blood, sweat, and tears into this performance from like multiple sides. And he's making the movie like right around the same time. I mean, you've told me he came. Yeah, he and Helena came like early, well, like midway, maybe through the run. Did you know that the movie was happening at that point? Like, was that announced?

It was rumored. I think, I feel though, like Sam Mendes was initially. Sam Mendes was supposed to do it for a while. And it was like, ostensibly, this was the Sam Mendes movie that Tim Burton took over. It was DreamWorks had the rights. John Logan had been writing the script. These producers were on board. Right. And then obviously he made it his own thing, but it was thatWorks had the rights. John Logan had been writing the script. These producers were on board. And then obviously he made it his own thing,

but it was that movie. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was like right around the time that it was becoming apparent that Sam wasn't going to do it, that they showed up kind of unannounced and, and we didn't know for sure that the movie is happening, but the fact that they were there seemed to kind of,

sure. You know, hint that maybe they were at least thinking about it. And they didn't come backstage or anything, but they were unmissable out in the audience. Really? You think they're like visually distinctive? Maybe it was the spotlight on them. I don't know.

And then a little while later, actually, I think the rumor was that Johnny Depp was coming with them and he wasn't there with them. Because that must have looked like an even cleaner equation of like, okay, what? Do they tell you if someone's famous? Like someone famous is coming beforehand? Will they be like, guess who's coming tonight? They know and some actors don't ever want to know. Right, I was going to say, would that freak you out? I like to know. You don't want to just i was gonna say would that freak you out i like to know

you know it's i you don't want to just look and stay yeah i would rather know exactly exactly um so yeah so i'll always ask if there's anybody you know and half the time it's like i have no idea who that person is but okay great um so yeah so we i think we knew but when johnny depp did come then a little while later totally unann, like didn't tell anybody and somehow escaped being noticed on the way in and, you know, through the whole show. Well, he was hiding under 16 hats and scarves. Yeah, I think so. But you would think that somebody might notice that. There's a scarf man here.

I hear bracelets clanking. that there's a scarf man here yeah i hear bracelets clanking but he he apparently came around to the stage door and said do you think they would mind if i came back and said hi and they're like no i think that probably would be okay and then word like spread like wildfire backstage and i mean he's also the height of his like pirates of the caribbean is very recent at this point you know like re-watching this remembering, because it's kind of bizarre that he got an Oscar nomination for this. Sure. Not just because of the performance.

He won a Golden Globe. Yeah. He did. But this movie didn't have much other success with the Academy. But then I had to remember, this was his peak. Yeah. This was him doing the victory lap after 20 years of being this like, underground icon of like,

now he's the biggest movie star. Yeah. And everyone was just so on board with him. Him. Yeah. Yeah. So did you meet him? Yeah, he came back and,

you know, like all the girls in the company all ran back up to put extra makeup on, you know, to come back down. You took all your makeup off. Yeah, I took all my makeup off. That took a while.

And I think he went over to see Patty first. We had dressing rooms on opposite sides of the stage, so it was hard to kind of like see everybody at once. So he went over there first and I also had Larry,

Lawrence Fishburne had come to see the show that night and I had done David and I just got like shivers. I fucking love Lawrence Fishburne had come to see the show that night. And I had done an equalizer. David and I just got like shivers. I fucking love Lawrence Fishburne. Okay, okay. We both got goosebumps.

I had done an episode of the equalizer with him like zillions of years and years before when he was Larry Fishburne. So he came back to say hi. And Adam Duritz from County Crows was there that night. Wait, Duritz, Fishburne, and Depp? Who is also a friend of mine. So, yes, there's a photograph of the three of us in my dressing room together.

It was, or the four of us. Sure, right, right, right. So, yeah, so everybody ended up in my dressing room. We were hanging out for a while. But at this point, did you know that he was playing the part or was it still sort of? It was still like, and I asked him like after after the other guys left he hung out and for a while on my dressing room and i had i had my guitar and an amp in there because i used to like practice and stuff between shows and um and so we talked for a long time about music and stuff and i said you know so

you know is are you doing the movie or are you do? And he said, well, you know, after watching, he was really very nice and complimentary. I put myself on tape for Tim. He hasn't gotten back to me yet. I don't know. His casting was announced, I'm finding it right,

in 2007, mid-2007. So that's when it became formal. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't, I guess it hadn't been announced yet. Very often, if there is a revival of a show that is so acclaimed and so successful,

and then a new movie adaptation happens, it's like, well, either they're going to carry over some of the cast, or they're going to take their inspiration, their cues. Yeah, that never happens. No, well, I feel like, no. I feel like more often, you're right. They cast big movie stars who don't have musical training. There's either the sort of the producer's thing thing where they're like, let's just, the

original cast of the hit show will hire the director of the stage show, which is, you know, totally different skill set. Mamma Mia was that, but with a new cast. Yeah. And we'll just do as close to it as possible. And that usually doesn't work. Right. Because you end up with.

There's some weird lifeless quality. Yeah, exactly. Right. Or this approach, which is like, let's just cast the most famous people we can think of and hire like a big shot director. I guess I was I was leading there under false pretense. But but that's the thing is like the second he comes on, you're like, well, it's going to be Johnny Depp and Holland Bonham Carter. And I know what he's going to do with the material. Yeah.

Now, at this point in time, where do you stand on Tim Burton and where do you stand on the idea of him doing it when you hear, when you're starting to put this together? I mean, I thought Sam Mendes was an exciting,

great idea, but then when I heard that he wasn't doing it, I've loved Tim Burton's movies. So, I thought, well, that makes a lot of sense. And, yeah,

and I can actually see Johnny Depp, and he, you know, I know he does sing, you know, he had bands and stuff been in bands right yeah um but i think he took a lot of like voice lessons because it's a whole different yeah absolutely yeah um but yeah so i i thought in the in the world of big box office movie stars and directors this is actually one of the better choices you could make

to put, you know, to put this particular show out there. I did sort of feel like maybe it's a little too obvious a choice, like a little too easy. Sure.

Yeah. I mean, I remember having... Do it gothic, Tim. Although this is easily his most violent movie. Yeah, which is so interesting. He's never made anything quite this, like, graphic.

I also think this is his most... Sleeping Hollow is also quite violent. interesting. He's never made anything quite this graphic. I also think this is his most... Sleeping Hollow is also quite violent. This is more violent. Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. I mean, having re-watched both these... Yeah, no, this has the very red, goopy blood. That's the 99. Yeah, right.

These are sort of his only two movies that are aggressively violent and kind of scary. Like very much a hard R sort of game. The thing I find really interesting about this movie now in the context of like, we've been watching fucking 20 films of his. He's the one who picked him, Burton. I want to make clear.

And I have certain regrets. Sure. But I don't, I don't regret doing this. No, of course not. But I'm so tired. Uh,

no, the thing that stands out to me about this movie is so often he's making films from this sort of outsider perspective i'm the weirdo yeah i don't understand this world i don't understand how other people behave sometimes those people are villainous sometimes those people are well-intentioned right but the movies are all about that sort of feeling of alienation yeah this is a misanthropic movie i mean this is a movie about how everyone's terrible. It's a very misanthropic show. Yes. Oh, no, I'm not saying

he brought that to it. Right, right, right. No, but it is unlike his other films in that way. Like, the good characters are the weirdos in this movie. Right. And, yes.

And, you know, that's inherent to the material. But it's interesting because I did have that reaction, never having seen Sweeney Todd but growing up with theater kids who were like, you haven't seen Sweeney? I'm like, I get,

you would love it. It's like a musical but it's like fucking dark. That's not me making fun of Sweeney fans. That's me making fun of a 14-year-old. But I like remember

reading that announcement and going like, oh, I guess that makes sense. Like I didn't feel excited by it because it felt so on the nose. I wasn't dreading it right i was more excited than hearing like he's gonna do dumbo which at that time i went like what is he why would he what does he have to say a dark dumbo right but you read that like you know that he loved the show that he saw i mean he had sort of a lightning strike moment like you did where he was in college and it was like

the first musical he had ever liked and he saw it five times. Oh, yeah. And you're like, I guess this is one of those things. I mean, he claims that he wrote letters to Sondheim when he was like a student at CalArts and was like, would you ever let anyone make a movie? Which he probably didn't read those letters. Well, no. An interesting thing about him, Sondheim does and or I mean, at least used to always read the letters and would write back. I remember when I was in college, people saying, no, you can write to him and he will send you a typewritten letter back.

Did you do it? I didn't do it then, but I saw friends' letters. And then subsequently, I had done it before I ever met him, and he did. Wow. It was very cool. I wonder if today the same rules apply with texting Sondheim. 1-800-DVS. I don't know.

But yes, I mean, you know, you understand all the things he's connected to in the material. Yes, he usually is. You know, I'm the sensitive person who is wronged by society around me. I don't know how to function. Right. And this is one of those weird morally dubious things where like everyone is kind of bad

in their own way yeah like the general take on it is just like god fucking people huh yeah like we all suck

we deserve to be meat pies there's a hole in the world like a great back right right right that kind of thing like from you know well he's style I feel like

Depp is sort of styled like Len Carey was with the sort of styled like len carrey was with the sort of curtain hair and and elsa lancaster right right yeah with the shock of white that's true and as you were you were talking about the staging of the pie scene like the staging is much more like the angela lansbury where she's got a rolling pin she's got pies she's got flour yeah she's sort of banging it all around. Like, it does feel like the original version is the one that's in his head. Yeah. Right.

And his main work he's doing is, and this is what I think. Desaturating it. Desaturating the fuck out of it. Severely. Like, there's that scene where, during the Pirelli scene, when they start speaking out from the crowd. the Pirelli scene when they start speaking out from the crowd and I go like this is a classic like sort of Tim Burton-y moment of here you have this big crowd scene and two people in it are so incredibly stylized that even in this wide shot they're gonna stand out without the need for like a special you know on them and the movie is so desaturated that everyone looks as pale as they do. Right. Despite the fact that you know that they're wearing two tons.

Right. They're literally caked in powder. White clown makeup and like dark eyes. Like the film is so colorless, save for that one sequence. Yeah, by the sea. Right. It's an interesting choice to like make the entire thing look so

goddamn bleak. Sure. I mean, it's a choice. I don't know. I mean, also these sort of CGI London, these sorts of like weird shots where it's like, you know, zipping around this fake Fleet Street. When it started, I was like, oh, wait, fuck, do I hate this movie? Like when you open with like

the CGI boat on the CGI rivers and then like the super fast like zooms through i was just like i don't what all right so before you you said you you do like tim burton yeah before we get on to the plot yeah uh and i like johnny depp and i like on a bottom car so you were so i i was i was all on board and like really eager to see it and eager to to love it and you were telling me off mic uh that uh you saw it at the Ziegfeld yeah they had they had a big screening right before the the opening weekend it was like you know on the Wednesday before or something at the Ziegfeld um and it was you know their invitations to all the Broadway casts and and lots of people and

and Sacha Baron Cohen was there and Alan Rickman was there and Sondheim was there. John Logan was there. I don't think Tim Burton wasn't there, I don't believe. And Johnny Depp wasn't there. But, you know, it was a celeb-y sort of New York premiere kind of thing.

And in the perfect place to see it, too. Right. Yeah. And your reaction? I mean, are you watching the film as it's going on? Because I feel like there was a cloud forming in the months leading up to this movie's release where I feel like all the purists were like, oh, have you heard? They like cut this out. They're doing this instead.

Like there was a lot of skepticism. Yeah. From Sweeney purists. Yeah. Months before this movie came out. From Sweeney Puris. Yeah. Months before this movie came out.

I was not, I was trying not to give in to any of that because there had been, you know, a different version of that same thing in anticipation of our show opening. Because, you know, we were doing a very faithful to, you know, to what Sondheim had written thing. And he was, you know, he was there with us and he was very much on our side but there were plenty of people who had heard you know what they're playing their own instruments no horns and um so so i knew what that was like so i wasn't going to give that a lot of weight the thing that worried me the most was seeing trailers with no singing in it and I thought why are they trying to sell this like it's not a musical like it's a horror period piece right like it's a sort of

that worried me more than anything else the trailer has no singing at all except there's that one thing from Epiphany where he says yeah that's it which I guess people were just like oh I guess he that's like a weird Tim Burton flourish. One line of dialogue.

Right. They have the, you sir, that leading into the, I will have vengeance is the only singing part in the trailer. And this was a movie where like, I remember deadline writing the story about it, that it's opening day was big.

And then it dropped like a stone. And they were like, people are walking out 10 minutes in and demanding their money back because they didn't know it was a musical. Like that they had sort of mostly sold it as like a slasher. They sold it like Sleepy Hollow. It came out at Christmas, which is odd. Which is an insane time to release it.

Very strange time to release a movie like this. But this became like, oh, this is like for the people who were like, I don't want to see that fucking Christmas family movie. I'm going to see that like Tim Burton horror film. It's like Tim Burton saw and then the opening is him on a pirate ship singing and people were like, what the fuck is this?

You can't get around it. It's almost sung through. It's mostly singing and so you're going to start singing right away and you better be in or not. But it says on the Wikipedia people were literally filing complaints to like, not the FTC, but like the advertising commission like commissions, like the film had been falsely advertised that they went to see it under false pretenses. Well, I mean, I don't disagree entirely.

No, it was an insane choice. Yeah, I think it was really not smart. No, no, I think it caused them a lot of damage. And especially when it's like you have the people who love the original work so skeptical about this right and then you're advertising in a way to try to trick the people who aren't gonna like it yeah into seeing it it like kind of feels like they were lining themselves up to be uh to get everyone angry but this is like the kind of musical for people who don't like music yeah so accessible so why wouldn't you like put that forward right yeah right you should own this is the musical for people who don't like musicals. It's so accessible. So why wouldn't you put that forward?

Right. You should own this as the musical for people who don't like musicals rather than being like, it's not a musical. Come on in. Just sit down. Please sit down.

I did this movie, The Mexican, with Brad Pitt and Julia Robertson. You're in The Mexican? Yeah. I haven't seen it since I was 15 years old, which I saw at my 15-year-old birthday party. But anyway, sorry, carry on.

People are constantly campaigning for us to cover Gore Verbinski on this show. Oh, you should. You definitely should. Yeah, right. It's an earlier Gore. Early Gore. The weird magic gun with the heart.

Yeah. You were in the Mexican. I'm sorry. And it was like when we shot it, it was this kind of quirky. Oh, I know what you're going to do. And they're barely in it together. And they were not at all in it together. And the poster was them canoodling

yeah and the trailer was like the same thing so similarly like they they kind of sold it as this romantic comedy that it wasn't and the people

who would have been interested in what it actually was didn't think it was for them and the people who it was sold to came and like

it wasn't that so it's the same thing that's another one my 15 year old birthday party we all had a great time I was gonna say i remember that movie coming out it opening pretty well and then dropping so fucking hard yeah i wasn't interested in seeing it because i was like i don't care about seeing like a brad pitt julia roberts like rom-com sure and then it's got like

gandolfini i saw it on a plane six months later i was like this movie fucking rules why didn't anyone tell me it was this? And in both cases, it's like you've got Johnny Depp in Sweeney Tom. You've got Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts. What are you afraid of? Why do you feel like you have to sell? Give them a shot. These are still commercial elements. Saying it's sort of a stylish crime comedy with Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts is as strong a sell as

it's a rom-com with Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts. And the same thing of, you want to see Johnny Depp sing? Here's a really bloody musical. It's an interesting pitch for people who don't like musicals. You want to see him shave throats? Right.

Was The Mexican your connection to Fringe? I'm putting this together in my head. It was the same writer. It was. It wasn't... It wasn't direct. It wasn't direct. It was years and years in between

but yeah when there was an interesting lining up of things yeah great so I haven't thought about The Mexican in a while

it rules I mean look it's a good movie maybe by this point in time when this episode comes out yeah we'll be talking about it right exactly but

sort of what is your experience we'll go into the plot of the film and you know you'll be able to elucidate what it's doing wrong or where it's shifting from what you would have done or any of that. Not that I'm teaming you up to just give notes on Johnny Depp's performance or anything. But what is your sort of experience while watching the movie? Is it like a sinking sort of stomach thing yeah kind of i mean i don't think i knew that they had taken the the ballad i knew that because he had burton had said in

interviews beforehand like yeah we couldn't really fit it in they had cast people to play the chorus christopher lee among them really yeah anthony head that's why he's in the movie right right and then i guess for i think it was partly time and partly they had some sort of interruption in filming because Johnny Depp's daughter was sick or something. Yeah. And so it's what they cut. Now you're cutting one of the most famous numbers in Broadway history. You're cutting the signature song of the show. And the, yeah, the thing that starts it off.

Yeah. And here are two other crazy things. One is he cast five actors to play the ghost chorus. Right. They're all gentlemen ghosts. And so they announced that Christopher Lee, Anthony Head to play gentlemen ghosts. And all the Sweet Todd fans are like, there are no gentlemen ghosts. What are you talking about?

And then in interviews, Tim Burton. A gentleman ghost. Right. Sort of like, and he's a guy where this has come up a lot. He's not super articulate. He's kind of like sort of mumbly when he does interviews and everything. And the people who worked with him are like, he really knows what he wants, but he's not good at expressing it. So in interviews, when people asked him what he was cutting out, he would just sort of be like, I don't know.

It just feels weird to have the townspeople singing stuff. Which I think set off red alerts for everyone to be like, does this guy not get the show? Then they announced they're cutting the Gentleman Ghosts. And it wasn't clear at the time, but it was. Johnny Depp's daughter had gotten sick. They shut down filming for four weeks, and they had to sort of restructure and go like, we've already cut a bunch in the adaptation at the script stage. Now we have to cut even more because we have to finish the movie.

We have a release date to hit. Johnny Depp's probably got three more Pirates movies lined up that he has to jump onto. So it is like this. It's a very short movie considering. It's much shorter than the show. Yeah. Right? It's less than two hours long.

I feel like the show is. It's just under two hours though. Yeah. I guess the show. Maybe the show isn't much longer. No, I don't think so. I mean. The ballad is what's been cut and that's probably 10, 15 minutes.

Yeah. And when I was going back to look at it again in anticipation of getting together today, because I haven't seen it since I saw it in the movie theater. And I was thinking about, you know, was it for time? Because I didn't know any of the story about his daughter being sick or anything. So I didn't really know why that was cut. And I thought, was it just time? But there's so much air in it. Yeah.

That if, you know, if that was the concern. I thought, was it just time? But there's so much air in it. Yeah. That if, you know, if that was the concern, and for me, one of the problems in the film is the pacing to begin with. That it's just like, it's... Rather leaden. Yeah. They just sort of, we just sort of go from scene to scene without a lot of energy to it.

And then the end moves really fast. Like, I'd forgotten, like, the last 10 minutes are like a bullet train, and then you're like, wait, it's over? And that's true of the show also. I just think when the pacing is that deliberate leading up to that, it becomes more jarring. It's not that there's a problem with all the sort of inciting incidents hitting at the same time. It's that it's just like you get whiplash. Because then when it starts speeding up you're like oh

they're going to be 30 minutes of them maintaining this pace yeah and instead it's like 10 yeah um and that you know there were just lots of places where sometimes there are places where the ballad you know a reprise of the ballad would have been that's just a montage thing anyway like when he's building the chair for the first time right it's like you could have that show up someone there and do two things at once instead of just watching him put gears on. Right. And I think you need the staginess of people singing to relax the audience about the staginess.

It's still staging. The movie is staging. Like, right. It's mostly in two different rooms or what, you know like and that would just heighten the unreality a little more and like make it more fun and it's a great song well and it is like right uh sometime pretty smart guy sure yeah he didn't write that song uh by mistake no he knows you have to sort of like lure the audience into this world especially

since it's such a specific tonal thing and so different than most musicals yeah and as i said i love this movie but that opening still fucking almost turned me off of it and i've seen the thing three or four times now yeah you know where i'm just like what the fuck is this and you it's like hard to imagine uh an opening that is so perfect at alienating almost every single audience member. Because you go, if you're a fan of the musical, you go,

why aren't they doing Ballad of Sweeney Todd? If you're... They sort of do it over the credits, like instrumental plays. And the orchestra sounds amazing.

I mean, they've got the largest symphony, you know, LSL is playing it and Paul Gemignani, who is Sondheim's musical director, you know, for years, playing it and Paul Gemignani who is Sondheim's musical director,

you know, for years is fantastic and so the orchestra sounds amazing and it's so exciting and then, you know,

and then nothing is done with it. and then we're on a boat. And then we're on a boat and you're ready. That's the thing, it's this one moment where you go like,

he starts singing on the boat and a part of the audience goes, they're singing the wrong song. What is this? They fucked it up. Sure, sure. Other the audience goes, they're singing the wrong song. What is this? They fucked it up. Sure, sure.

Other people are like, they're singing a song? What is this? And then even for me, I'm just like, this is dropping you in fast and I can't get the rhythm of this thing. I remember kind of liking it just because you've got, you know, the young hero is singing and then Depp sort of slinks up and he's like, meh. You know, it's fun. And he's doing like like, grand guignol. I mean, I forgot how sort of posey this performance is, and I'm not saying it's a postury performance, but he's really going for just kind of, like, pure iconography.

Like, it's 20% nose acting. Like, it's a lot of nose snarling, you know? But it's a lot of, like, stillness in dramatic poses. He's letting the wig do a lot of the snarling yeah you know but it's a lot of like stillness right in dramatic poses yeah he's letting the wig do a lot of the work for him i forgot how severe that robert kardashian stripe in his hair robert kardashian robert kardashian was the father he had a stripe yeah yeah yeah i mean you mean david schumer yes right right he's sort of got a grown-out uncle juice kind of thing going on oh no way rob is the son you're right that's what i was fucking uh not david uh uh what's his name no it's they're

both robert okay there you go it's explained he made this son after himself as people often do yeah but for me this movie starts working when helena bottom carter comes in because I think she is super keyed into the right sort of zone. I love Helena Bonham Carter. She's a great actress. She's nothing not to love. Exactly. She's a fine singer.

I mean, the singing in this is sort of fine. Like, I don't know how, you know. He hired actors who can kind of fake their way through the songs as opposed to musical theater. Yeah, there are a couple of people, like Laura Michelle Kelly who plays a beggar woman. Sure. the actors who can kind of fake their way through the songs as opposed to musical theater yeah there there are a couple of people like laura michelle kelly who plays a beggar woman sure yes is you know she's amazing west end stage and the the woman who plays joanna also i think came from the west end i think that's probably right let's find out i forgot about her she was sort of

yeah like a young discovery type j Jane Wisner. Wisner? Yeah. She's Irish. She'd been in a youth production of West Side Story, and she was discovered from that. More like West End Story. Yeah, you know. Is this thing on?

Is this thing on? Don't do that, Chris. Yeah, she's mostly a stage actress. Sure. Helena, I feel like at this point, she's a great actress who's been around long before Tim Burton just, quote unquote,

discovered her. Merchant Ivory. She's stuck in a bit of a Tim Burton trap, though. I mean, that was the other thing. But this is the thing. It's like, she would then,

you know, after Planet of the Apes, she pops up in every Burton movie and people would sort of go, oh, you know, because, you know, she's always, he'll always cast her.

And she's also not doing... Even though she's always good in them. Right, but I think... She gets tagged unfairly with this sort of nepotism, you know, because, you know, she's always, he'll always cast her. And she's also not doing. Even though she's always good in them. Right. But I think. She gets tagged unfairly with this sort of nepotism, you know, like. Right. And then she gets this role, which is a huge role. Huge.

Because she's played more supporting roles in all the other films. Usually she's. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I feel like people sort of rolled their eyes. Yeah. But she's, yeah, she's pretty good. I don't know.

I think she's pretty great in this. I do. I mean, I understand you can throw all the complaints at the singing, but I think she's, yeah, she's pretty good. I think she's pretty great in this. I do. I mean, I understand you can throw all the complaints at the singing, but I think she's, the thing he's trying to do with this movie is he's sort of trying to find a midway point between the Sondheim show and the sort of horror movies that he grew up on. Right. And there's a company, I forget the name, but it was like the company that was Subhammer Horror.

Subhammer. Oh, yeah. You mean like the company that was sub Hammer Horror. Sub Hammer. Oh, yeah. You mean like the Buckets of Blood company. It's called like Alcheon or something like that. Yes. Oh, I do know what you're talking about. Yeah, go on.

But keep talking. He said he and John Logan bonded over watching those movies. They loved that kind of stuff. That it was like this sort of like D grade amicus. Amicus. Amicus movies.

Yeah. Right. They were like, we want to make an amicus movie. That's why they wanted Christopher Lee in the... Yes, exactly. Like the house, the drip blood you know those sorts of things so he's like i kind of half want to make the musical and i half want to make this sort of very straight-faced

sort of like nasty gothic horror grand goal movie film um which is like a weird balance to do and i think she's best tapped into the sort of not the tongue-in-cheekness of it, but the humor of it. I mean, Depp is sort of like just allowing other characters to get laughs off of him in contrast. Yeah. Because he's so stuck in his own universe the whole film. It's all him staring off into the distance yeah i i remember thinking at the time and thinking again when i saw it recently that that sometimes it's it's not good to work with the same people all the time and especially somebody that that you you know are

on such a wavelength with because maybe they don't push you the way you need i feel like he has dep has a much better performance in him especially at this point in time this is more him doing as you say what we might expect of him

he's a charismatic actor but him in the Sam Mendes version would have probably resulted in a more engaging performance I mean this is

really when they start to get stuck in like a cul-de-sac the three of them of like HBC, Burton and Depp were also there's like tempered excitement every time they're announced to be doing a movie like a cul-de-sac. Yeah. The three of them of like HBC, Burton, and Depp. Yeah. We're also,

there's like tempered excitement every time they're announced to be doing a movie together again because it's like, I know what it's going to be. And this one also feels like the apex of, they're literally just becoming

fetish objects for him. Yeah. Like he's found these two people with both upside down teardrop faces. These very angular sort of gothic beautiful people.

His wife and his best friends yeah sure and he just keeps on styling them more and more to look like his dreams yeah and i do have that like uncomfortable kind of thing watching it where it's just like it feels like he has too much control what we were talking about before of like the limitations and the obstacles or whatever like he has now like had his the two people he's closest to in his life are both bankable so he can make any movie he wants with the two of them make them look exactly how he wants he's got his regular creative collaborators and people just back off and it just feels like there's not necessarily enough tension that he had the early parts of his career because everyone's like, yeah, do the Tim Burton thing.

Yeah. Just do it. Yeah. Well, Sweeney is a character and you have played Sweeney Todd. He could be one dimensional. Like he's this sort of Terminator-esque. He's so ruined,

like or whatever, you know, and he's so hell bent on revenge. He's sort of this like ghoul. Right. He sort of died already. I mean, he's like kind of a reanimated by revenge yeah well like i remember in your production i mean a lot he rises out of a grave is sort of the classic introduction of sweetie todd right yeah um but yeah is do you think that's a limiting thing like that you could just sort of look at this character and be like

yeah he's just a scary ghoul man i i think it's just it's a mistake when when people think that that's what it is and try to right you know play it that way you know obviously it's never going to be uh interesting if it's just one dimensional i i mean i think again because our production was was so unusual it was easy to go back to the script as though you know like if you're doing hamlet you've got to look at it people have been doing it for 400 years but you have to, you know, like if you're doing Hamlet, you've got to look at it. People have been doing it for 400 years, but you have to pretend, you know, well, what if I'm the first person to ever read this? You know, what do I know from the script? And, you know, you get details like this is a guy who's been away for 12 years. This is a guy who's still a father and a husband. And my thought was if he could have come back and found his wife and daughter immediately, which for all he knows when he gets there. They'd just be waiting for him on the deck or whatever.

Yeah. And then he'll take them and they'll escape to the north of England and have a happy life. And it's actually the villain of the piece really is Mrs. Lovett, who recognizes who he is. She's the one who's gotten rid of his wife and daughter, essentially, and then, you know, sees an opportunity to have an alliance and have this man that she always was sort of fascinated by to begin with. And she channels and, you know, she she's the you know lady m of the

story right um so so i think there's a lot of room and i think i think johnny depp does this or you know gestures towards it with uh you know a vulnerability and a and a broken side in addition to the the deep deep wells of vengeance. But I would say, you know, half in Depp's performance, half in the stylization of Depp. Yeah. From the moment he steps forward and starts singing on that boat, you're like, this guy's gone. Yeah. Like, there's no coming back for this dude.

Yeah. And that is a thing I think the movie kind of botches, which is just like, there is no possible happy scenario for this guy the way they've played him in this film. It doesn't feel like if he met his wife, he would just be like, let me scrub this streak out now. I can smile again. Like, it's the difference between like playing Dracula, who is still like a romantic character with emotion and empathy, even though he is villainous, versus playing this character as a theatrical zombie, which is kind of what Burton and Depp have decided to do,

that he's sort of just like a mythic monster at this point. I mean, was that kind of like, not to force you to sort of spill your secrets if they are things you covet, but was there sort of like a central thing you tapped into for the character where you're just like, above all else, this is like my key to,

to Sweeney. This is like the fundamental spine of the character is that. Well, I think for me, it was that he's a father, you know, and that, uh,

that as, as deeply as he goes into his, you know, his tragic flaw is his need for vengeance and retribution that makes him oblivious to what is literally in front of his face at times. know i think i think he has to remain a human a recognizable human being to us yeah so that the monstrosity can be even more disturbing because it's like wow i guess if i felt that deeply maligned and but my life was taken away from me i might actually you know have that kind of revenge fantasy myself yeah and this movie certainly has none of that tension. No. Not really. It's more like when are we going to get to you know the killing.

But the thing is I feel like Depp his best two scenes are the Pirelli scene because he gets to be a little fun. Yeah. Right.

He gets to have a little more levity a little more sort of like pride in his skill. Yeah. And then Epiphany which is the one time that like they kind of like

which is the you know kind like they kind of like, which is the, you know, I'm sweet. Again, a little like charisma. Like he's at least like alive and the staging of that

is alive with him like walking around and it feels more unreal. It's not just him in a chair or next to a chair. Because some of this movie feels like,

like a fish out of water comedy. Like it's like Thor or something where the joke is like, why is this guy so stilted? Sure sure he's just sort of standing there being weird right and he spends so much of the movie not making eye contact with people i mean it's like he's in his own show in his head yeah which is a choice which and and that can work i think but then it has to be supported and and not left to just kind of sit there by the direction, by the design.

Right, but even when he's peering at Joanna through the window, you're just like, this guy is still just gone. Yeah. He's in the sunken place. Yeah. There's no rescuing him. The biggest place I feel like they miss that opportunity is in A Little Priest, which is one of the most fun numbers in the whole show.

It's so nastily funny, yeah. Yeah, and it's so brilliantly placed in the order of things. It's right after Epiphany, so right when you've had this bile-filled horrific thing. I want you to play this. Yeah, and then immediately Mrs. Lovett's like, you know, it's an awful waste. And so it should be so fun.

It's so great. And it just lands like a lead balloon in the movie. He's very leaden in that one. He really is not doing anything. And they also, I think, make the mistake of it's one of those, oh, okay, it's a movie, so we're going to open it up. So when they talk about each of the kinds of pies, you know, they look out at the window and see the kind of people. And the point is not that it's the people. It's the pie.

Like in the show, it's all like pantomimed, and they're always talking about pies. So it's a game between the two of them. Instead, it becomes a little literal. It's so literal. When he says, is that squire on the fire? And they have a guy through the window, a squire standing in front of a fire. It's like, oh, come on. And it doesn't

make it delightful and wicked and fun the way it can be without losing any of the, actually giving you more of an opportunity to go even deeper in the dark stuff because you've had some you know play time so well also i mean this is not a dancey musical no but he even more so is trying to create more movement through his edits and the juxtaposition of images that he is through right yeah because there is some sort of like pointed choreography of people,

how they rotate around each other in the room. Yeah. There's some sort of like theatrical dramatic choreography that is effective. Yeah. But a lot of it is like that. And that's an example of one where it's just like you're not gaining anything by doing this. I love like just in the Pirelli sequence the reveal you start with sasha baron cohen sharpening the blade and then you cut to the reverse angle and you see his knuckles

there's stuff like that that's like perfect burton like delayed gratification like yeah that's where i see the animator stuff come in He really understands like the power of like showing you an image at just the right time. Sure. When the whole by the sea thing, it's like one of the most successful parts of the whole movie. I think. And that's sort of playing off this comedic concept of like Sweeney's just in

another fucking show. Yeah. Like you can't break through to him. He's just like an Edward Gorey cartoon. Right. But it's funny if he's sitting there all dressed up in the sea clothes and like sort of looking sulky. But that's a musical number that's all about editing but it works he found an interesting way to make it cinematic yeah um the first time she she slides

over the pie is like a very well-timed edit i mean there's like a gulf between when he's on to something yeah about not how to open the show, but how to make it work in this medium versus when he's just opening things up or literalizing things for the sake of, I don't know, that can't just be them in a room, right? Right. Which I feel like- A lot of it's them in a room.

Right, you kind of have to own that. Or walk down the street. Yeah, well, and that's two problems with those two things. One, the rooms are so huge. Very cavernous, odd, and empty. Which doesn't feel like, you know, the London of the time. No, it should be like cramped and smoggy and gross. As a British person, you

know. Exactly. My father worked on Fleet Street. Not this Fleet Street. But yeah. How is that possible? He was an Englishman. I remember reading the newspaper stories about Sweeney Sims. This demon journalist of Fleet Street. Wait a second.

Wait a minute. Your father was a journalist, right? Yeah. Okay, nailed it. That's what Fleet Street was in the 20th century, is where all the papers were. Except the typewriters weren't filled with ink. They were filled with blood.

I'm sorry, Michael. Carry on. Oh, but so you've got these like huge cavernous rooms with just like people and nothing else in them. So you're more aware of any kind of staging, moving them around stuff or not doing it. And you also like just don't have a lot of stuff around. And then when you go into the streets of London,

teeming with life at this time, and they're like empty most of the time in the movie. It's like four people in petticoats. Yeah. Like that's it. It's, you the movie it's like four people in petticoats like that's it it's you know it's just that's what

and the the asylum scene is one of the you know more disturbing environments because it's chock full of like

freaky scary people and shadows and stuff yeah I think the movie gets so much better in the

back half I agree when it's being it's embracing the nightmarishness. Yeah. It takes, yeah, I mean, the movie doesn't have much of a pulse until blood starts spurting. Like, there's a clear, like, shift

of, like, you know, the way that musicals... It's color. Like, and the movie demands color. And so that is the one thing that's good about the Black, the very, very... Which I think is intentional, but it makes the first hour a little tricky to get into. And then the other thing is in the same way that like, you know,

musicals are, uh, the characters are at a point where the only way to express themselves is to break into song. The blood feels like it's serving a similar purpose in this. Like he's using the blood as sort of a cathartic opening of everything that's so repressed. But the problem is you are setting up, and I like this film, but you are setting up a film where it's like, okay, so for the first hour, it's going to be monochromatic and no one has any emotion.

Sure. Because I'm leading it all. It's all wind up for the second hour where it's a ton of blood. Yeah. Sure. I think it could have worked just as it is if you really felt underneath that surface, you know, depth surface deadness. There was this raging fire inside, which you just don't. And that's where I think, you know, he could have been helped by. And the zombie thing is just like, you know, I go to that specific analogy because it just feels like he's like driven by like brains.

Like it's like there's not a thought process. He's just moving towards an end goal without any sort of strategy. As opposed to Alan Rickman, who, I mean, is just a brilliant actor and a great stage actor. And, you know, and also not that I know a particular musical theater actor, but he knows how to use language and fill, you know, your text with so much nuance and complicated. I mean, he's a much more torn, you know, driven, troubled, questioning character than Sweeney Todd is. Right. And I think he's also owning that this is a filmed musical I mean he knows that he

can do slightly more introspective work because the camera's like right you know two feet away from him and then even as another parallel like Timothy Spall is going big with this performance I mean Timothy Spall is one of those guys where he I've seen him give the most subtle yeah but

right you could you can sort of wind him up and he's like let me go and you can let him go. And especially, Harry Potter, you think of Enchanted. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yes.

But he is tapped into the central sort of vanity of this character that's driving him where even though it's very cartoonish, it's rooted in a real thing and you see that,

you see him playing the conflicting emotions. Yeah. There's a real need. Right, depth, it's just like eyes on the prize. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a way that is sort of lacking emotions yeah there's a real need right depth there it's just like eyes on the prize like yeah

yeah yeah in in a way that is sort of lacking any nuance yeah i mean it's well performed but it's like and i just you know i just i'm certain that there's there was more yeah. In this time period, there's more to mine. He's a very good actor. He is. And this is sort of his last sort of quote-unquote good performance. I'm trying to think about his filmography. Like, after this, he makes, well, right, after this he makes Public Enemies. Right.

Which he's pretty good in. He's sort of being used as a marquee idol there. I mean, I think his last good performance is Rango. Yeah, and then he's in Alice in Wonderland and the Taurus, and then he's in Rango. I mean, this is when we start moving into a really bad direction. Yeah, and then he does another Pirates. He does Dark Shadows.

He does the Lone Ranger. He does another Alice. He does Mordecai. He does another Alice, right. Yeah. But certainly, I do't think this... I do think he is somewhat trying to stretch himself. That's why he got an Oscar nomination.

But I agree that he's a little lifeless. I wonder too if any of it has to do with so much of your performance having to be through singing and maybe not feeling, you know, entirely, entirely confident, even though he is a singer and has a, you know, very nice voice, but it's,

it's different, you know, it's different being a pop singer or a rock singer and, and a, you know, a storytelling theatrical singer. And I feel like, I mean, it it's a problem I think generally in musicals on stage too that often when people open their mouths to sing they kind of stop doing anything else they're just singing and I understand why and it's you know you have a lot to think about when you're singing but it almost I would always rather hear somebody who's not hitting every night every note beautifully but is really telling me the story and really using the text to convey the character and everything else. And I do feel a little self-consciousness,

maybe, at what he perceives as his lack of experience. Whereas Helena doesn't have that. She's going for it. She's sort of just having fun. But also also even like this is not a musical where they did the songs live you know

that's another thing I think was a big mistake yeah and I see him like there are moments especially in some of the bigger sort of

more operatic songs where his performance sort of you know they still sing on set because as Burton says

you know you have to match the sort of the breathing and all of that. But I sense in his physical performance less confidence than what is on the track, which he probably had more time to like hone. And then you, I feel at moments distinctly like he looks not embarrassed to be singing, but embarrassed that he maybe isn't as or or maybe experienced maybe it's not that so much as like trying i mean because when you're when you're essentially lip-syncing in your you know live performance you're trying not to screw

up all the time you know and so there's this and i'm sure there also was a lot of concern and probably discussion about you know the scale of the performance in the singing and the scale of, you know, for the camera, what's too much. And, um, and it just felt like everybody was afraid of going too far being,

you know, too far over the line or for the most part. And, and you have to make a decision in the recording studio in a booth about what it's going to be and then you know and then recreate it on the day with all this other stuff going on I mean it's it's a really difficult task and you know it just seems like I just would have loved to see them do it live see them you know not worry so much about the the details and the particulars and the nuances and tones and just like just go and chew the scenery a little more.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel like she's having a lot more fun with it. She seems a little more confident. And I do feel like she is certainly doing that thing where she is singing in character. Yeah. And she is acting while she's singing yeah you're getting the story you're getting the like thought processes yeah the

other thing i just uh was really taken by re-watching it is her eye acting is so good because so much of this movie relies on her sort of like twitchily looking around and yeah the shifting of her focus i I mean, like, Tim Burton milked so much out of her glancing from one area to another,

especially sort of choreographed to the rhythms of the music. Yeah, and also the cleats she's got spinning, right? Like, that's sort of what that character is,

where she's like, oh, I spawned on Petunia. But as you say, for her to be the sort of Lady Macbeth figure that makes the show as tragic as it could be, you have to believe that she is preventing him from a certain level of happiness that I don't think is attainable.

Yeah. From the start of this show, when she reveals that, you know, she has lied about his wife, I just go like, yeah, but what's the – they weren't going to get together. Right. You know, what are you talking about? He's gone. You know, he's like Robocop now. Yeah. He's like, there's no going back home.

It could have been that she gives him the razors. Yeah. He starts a nice little barber business. Right. You know, they eventually- He's good at it. I mean, he's good at it. He's a great barber.

You know, yeah. Let's say that. He's a great barber. Exactly. You know, she can close the shop, you know? Yeah. They could make a profit if he wasn't so intent on stabbing people in the throat. Well, I mean, repeat business is nil

that's a big problem with this business model I mean it's a big town but still right and also word of mouth non-existent but that is

you don't have any people walking out of the store going like I cannot recommend this guy highly enough except for the one guy with the family who comes

yeah which is another moment that I think is pretty well executed of revealing that family through the cut where you don't understand why he hasn't slashed the guy's throat yet and you cut to the other angle like yeah

um trying to think if there's other stuff we should talk about can we talk about Sasha's performance yeah sure yeah he's so great he's really great he is he's really into it and he's fun he's fun he's really fun you kind of get the feeling it's like he figures I've got nothing to lose.

Yeah, exactly. I'm just going to go for it. It was one of those, I remember, I saw this in theaters. I was living in Paris with my friend. This is actually true.

Oh, great. I saw so many weird movies in Paris that would like, that I, you know, I saw this with the French subtitles. Like you see, because in France,

they will usually show it in the language, but they'll put French subtitles on it. After college, David. It's weird. It's weird to see them try to translate Sondheim into French lyrics. After college, David lived in Paris for a year and worked as a bartender, a.k.a. the sexiest thing that anyone's ever done.

So mysterious of you, David. So compelling. You saw this in France, and when Sacha Baron Cohen comes on screen... It was when the credits played. Okay, and his name came up. My friend and I were like, Sacha Baron Cohen is in this? Oh, you didn't know he was in it.

No. For some reason... Ali G? Exactly. I grew up in England. Ali G was very important to me. And I guess like... I feel like this was the first thing they announced right after to me. And I guess like Borat had just happened, I guess. So I guess he's really on the, right. He's really sort of king of the world. And this is him doing a different thing. It's in his wheelhouse.

He's doing a funny Cockney accent. He's doing a funny, you know, European Italian guy accent. But he's a decent singer. He's got like a nice sort of like profound voice. You know, he's fun. And he's playing emotional depths to this character. I mean, the pettiness and the sort of strategic-minded kind of wiliness of him. Sure.

I mean, yeah, I remember them announcing his casting in that sort of like, I mean, movie they film it uh the the beginning of 2007 borat comes out the end of 2006 and i feel like this was maybe the first post borat where everyone was going like well you can't keep on doing these like yeah like hidden camera movies forever because everyone's gonna know what he does yeah so everyone was trying to go like what's his movie career gonna be like now right like what what's it to be? And this seemed to be, I mean, he has pretty consistently always been more interesting if you give him a supporting part in a scripted movie versus his scripted vehicles, which don't really work. Well, like you can imagine Johnny Depp being a great Pirelli, you know, without the burden

of carrying this, you know, iconic character and everything else. Especially in his early Burton working relationship where he was a leading man making character actor choices. And also, whereas this, it feels like he's burdened with the, like, I'm the leading man. Yeah. He would have a whole spin on this sort of showman thing anyway. It would be great. Yeah.

Yeah. It was the Pope. That's my favorite line. It's so funny. And then they have the little portrait of the Pope. So funny. I think Toby is very good in this too and he didn't really act that much after this.

He is good. He's got a good face. Often that's played by an older actor. I feel like that's played by a teenager. Neil Patrick Harris played that role. It's usually a young, you know, youngish looking,

but older person. Like a tenor. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, and this is, it's great making it a child.

Right. Makes it all the more disturbing. Exactly. And I love it when you leave the bottle. Yes. I'm a drunk kid. It makes those things funnier. Drunk urchin.

You're a big urchin fan. Yeah. No, but it's like there's something like, you know, innate in our like human condition to when you see a kid with dirt on his face who looks sad. You know? And it's like it makes those jokes funnier. Yeah. It makes the ending all the more frightening. Right.

And it makes it more frightening and it makes the tension of when he's locked in the basement really, like, visceral. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, like, something you really kind of gain. Something that I think doesn't work in making it a film rather than a stage show is the second the beggar woman comes on screen. Yeah. You don't have the same sort of license that you have in a stage production where you're like, well, actors double up on parts. Right, yeah. The fact that they're not showing her face you immediately go like well this has to be

something yeah yeah like they're clearly withholding a clear shot of her face for a reason again the other problem of this empty london where she's like the only character who's on the street because in the in the production there's a whole teaming mass right and you don't you really don't clock it so much but yeah there's no way not to in this. It's theatrical license. Who knows? Whatever. And she's great. I mean, she, I felt like, you know, she's a fantastic singer and, and, you know, emotionally, you know, brings everything that you would want to it.

But yeah, it is sort of no, no, not knowing where that's headed. It's that sort of basic like film language. Like I literally think the only movie where that works is somehow the prestige. Right. Where for an hour into it, you don't really clock that they're not showing you the other guy. Yeah. You know, and he only starts focusing on him when he wants you to like figure it out for yourself. Yeah. But I feel like any other time in a movie where they don't give you a close up of a character character saying that much dialogue you know something's happening yeah you know that they're withholding something for

you yeah you know deliberately to trick you yeah uh who else the the the two young you know romantic characters they're very pretty they're pretty and you know saying well enough and i re-watching this uh forgot until she comes on screen that it isn't Amanda Seyfried. Because I had somehow combined this and Les Mis in my head between the Sasha Baron Cohen,

Helena Bonham Carter, and the sort of like kept woman in the ivory tower. Even though Les Mis is after Sweeney Todd, like that's what, this is making fun.

I mean, that's what Joanna's such a good song is, you know, it's sort of like, you're like, wait, is this a love song or is mean, that's what Joanna is. Yeah. You know, it's, it's sort of like, you're like, wait, is this a love song or is this frightening?

You know? Um, but they're, yeah, they're fine. Jamie Campbell Bauer. He's been around since he was in the twilight movies. Right.

He's been in a couple of those big franchises. He's got that sort of vampire look. He's a handsome vampire. He's a drawn Englishman. Very, you know, skinny, drawn Englishman.

And, uh, yeah. Um, it's a very small, it's a very intimate movie. It is. Yeah. That's true. And you had done this intimate show, but obviously intimacy is way easier to get away with on

stage than it is on screen. Well, I mean, you would think it's easier on screen. Well, in some ways it can be because, right, yeah, you can, but I think if you're not moving around from set to set too much, it can become very oppressive very fast in a movie. because right yeah you can but I think if you're not moving around like from set to set too much it can become very oppressive very fast in a movie

I think that's also one of the reasons why I hate all the sweeping CGI town shots not just because I think they are

not particularly well executed but it feels like you are trying to quote unquote open this up in a way that's totally unnecessary

and works against what should be an asset, how intimate it is. You should feel sort of bottled within it. And every time they cut to the CGI like cityscape or the crazy like, you know, sort of zooms through the city, I'm just like, you're working against yourself. Yeah, if it was a claustrophobic like you could never get away from, never get any perspective, I think that would make you even more in the middle of the story. Well, even you look at something

like the first Burton Batman, where it's like they have this massive city set but you can tell they only could really afford to build this one sort of town square center. And the fact that the set is that big but you're also so confined to this one area helps add to the menace of the city.

And this, it's like every time they zoom out, you deflate the balloon a little bit. Yeah, yeah. If you can zip around London that quickly, it's easy. Because the thing starts really like... In your sleeve. Right.

Clicking like in a real high gear. This won for production design. It won the Academy Awards. I totally forgot that. Dante Ferretti, who's obviously a legendary. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's beautiful. But you think of Dante Ferretti, you think of Gangs of New York, you think of these giant sets that he would build out in Rome.

But another movie where the town square, sort of the main area where they meet. That's the greatest set. It helps if you, like movies like this, you just have one giant set where you cannot comprehend how big the set is, but you also understand where the walls are. I'm sort of getting

a Peaky Blinders kind of vibe to the set. Yeah, sure. Penn loves Peaky Blinders. He likes to bring up Peaky Blinders all the time. Have you seen it? Yeah.

It rules. It does. It's so good. So I was just like the whole time, I'm like, are some Peaky Boys gonna show up? That's like 50 years on

I think. They're like post-World War I. You can pretend this is a prequel to Peaky Blinders. I will. That's also Birmingham, which is the even glummer place. Birmingham? He did it better. It won the Oscar. The other thing I forgot that I was only reminded by looking at Wikipedia was that this won best picture and best actor at the Golden Globes.

Correct. And I was like, why do I have no memory of that happening? And it's because. It's the strike year. This is the writer's strike year where the Golden Globes was a news broadcast. It was 20 minutes long. They had two people. Yeah. And they just in like a. Golden Globes was a news broadcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was 20 minutes long. They had two people and they just in like

a fucking local news set. I forget who it was. It was like sub-entertainment tonight anchors. It was like those types of people. It was like, you know, Billy Bush or whoever

going like, and the winner is Johnny Depp. And then they just play a clip and there were no acceptance speeches. Of course not. They barely read the nominees. No, I think they just read the winners.

They just read the winners. It was like 45 they just read the winners. They just read the winners. It was like 45 minutes long. I remember watching it sadly in my college dorm room where you had only like the college local cable. I bought a little TV. They did it in my college dorm room.

Jackie Wasserstein from down the hall was the host. It was this very surprising year because Mad Men was in its first season right and was still this sort of

like critical favorite that was on a weird channel no one watched yeah and it won the Globe and Jon Hamm won Best Actor and it was just sort of like in the list

right and people were like wow that would have been a big deal if this was if anybody knew about it right every shocking win

failed to make any imprint because there were no acceptance speeches which you realize are what make those awards mean something. Right. If someone just comes in

they're always trying to cut down on it. Shorter, shorter, shorter. Right. But it's like the greatest illustration of like if you don't see what winning the award

means to the person the award kind of means nothing to the public. And you just imagine how weird it is for Johnny Depp to just like get FedExed in the mail. Because you imagine he probably wasn't watching that broadcast and then just shows up on his doorstep.

And he's like, I guess so. I want a globe. Here's your globe for best comedy. Yeah, for best comedy. It was best comedy. Best comedy or musical, yeah. But, you know, I am glad for its existence. If only because, you know, somebody like you who's never seen it before. Like your introduction to it, and you're still getting Sweeney Todd.

It's still a delivery system. You're still getting, yeah. So, you know, I'm happy that it exists for Sondheim and for people to discover it. And it certainly has had a lot to do with the the estimation of of the piece itself yes I think so and it helps culturally it helps people who might not have ever heard of it discovered or might not have ever seen and then maybe you can then go and listen to the original cast recording or your cast recording or anything like that it also feels to me like it doesn't feel like culturally

this holds the place of, oh, this is the definitive Sweeney Todd movie. Right, so we can never do it again. Or that it was so disastrous that no one wants to touch it again. Right. I think because of how specific Burton is and the two actors he used at the time

and how much it takes place in his own little hermetic career. It almost stands outside. Right, where it's just like that's his sweeney todd yeah and maybe 15 years from now someone else is going to do a more traditional version or a more untraditional version right or or whatever it is it doesn't feel like he's sort of taken the one shot that someone had to make this movie yeah i i would not i would be surprised if there is not a new sweeney Todd film within the next decade or so. It just

feels like it will probably happen at some point. I suppose. The only other Sondheim film adaptation is Into the Woods really. Which is so bizarre. Which was a big hit. This was a sort of medium. A very big hit that like kind of doesn't exist. Yeah that one kind of doesn't exist. And feels like another movie

where all the purists were like they're going to fuck it up. They're going to fuck it up. And then it came out and people were largely kind of doesn't exist and feels like another movie where all the purists were like they're gonna fuck it up they're gonna fuck it up and then it came out and people were largely kind of indifferent to it I saw that

you did? yeah when I was very young oh you mean you saw like the show yeah sure sure sure and it left a real

lasting impression well it's a great show it was a great show right and it was if you remember the set it was huge yes

and that I think was like a real you're talking about the Broadway yeah the giant voice it was, if you remember the set, it was huge. Yes. And that, I think, was like a real... You're talking about the Broadway? Yeah. It was huge. And I remember being a kid like, I like this. Right. I saw it with Vanessa Williams. Oh, yeah.

Does that make sense? The revival of it. It was the revival, right. I mean, it's so wild. That show is done so much in high school. Yeah, that's like done in high school. They usually only do the first half, right? No, I think it's just you just

make the wolf a little less... I think there is a version like a young people's just the first half. Before it gets dark. Because shit gets dark. Yes, it does. Yeah, certainly. But I think that was everyone's fear going into the Disney film was like, well, that's totally what

Disney's going to do. And then they adapted the whole show and it kind of just doesn't work. But in a way that no one could really get angry about. Like, it's just sort of like, well, that thing just kind of lays there. It's just kind of there. They do. Yeah, it's very rote. They stage the songs. Yeah.

It's okay. Everyone can sing kind of, you know, it's fine. It's a little passionless. It's okay. Everyone can sing kind of, you know, it's fine. It's a little passionless. That's an example of a movie where it feels a little claustrophobic, where the amount of time they spend in a bad way.

Somehow the woods set, which is big, makes the world feel too small. You know, or maybe it's the sets outside of the woods. I don't know what it is, but there's something about that movie that costs like fucking 80 million dollars and still feels really small and hermetic in a way that doesn't help it. Like, everyone's good in it.

Like, it's like a weird, you know. I have to see. I don't know why. Chris Pine and Billy Magnuson doing the agony is very funny.

It has moments that are great. Emily Blunt's great in it. Emily Blunt's quite good. She's talented actor. Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's play the box office game. Emily Blunt's great in it. Emily Blunt's quite good. She's talented actor. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

Let's play the box office game. Okay. I still, I mean. You still like it. No, no. I still like it. But the other thing I was going to say is, you know, people, how few Sondheim adaptations we get.

Yeah. How sort of sacred those texts seem to be and how afraid people are to try to bring them to screen. I so badly wish someone had the courage to try to bring them to screen. I so badly wish someone had the courage to try to do Assassins.

Which is a tricky one because it is very stagey in sort of its whole conception that it doesn't take place in a tangible reality. Yeah, but if you

lean into it That's what I think. I think, yeah. I mean, so many of them. Company could be a really interesting small scale

like Mike Lee-ish kind of musical. There are ways to get creative with his shows. Follies seems designed to be a film. Follies is the one that would be easiest, I think. Company would be fun. And this new company that I saw in London. And there's another one here, the Fiasco Theatre Company, I think,

is doing a roundabout. Somebody was just telling me. It's a great show. No, no, no, sorry. Merrily We Were Along. Oh, yeah, right. No, that's, is doing a roundabout. Somebody was just telling me. It's a great show. No, no, no. Sorry. Merrily We Were Along. Oh, yeah, right. No, that's being staged here right now. That's in Lady Bird, so I feel like that's been handled. Sure, sure.

That's the show they're doing in Lady Bird. That's right. They didn't understand it. That's what he says. You know that Mark Kudisch is on season two of The Tech. I heard. So I have this, like, I've repeated it

to everyone who has the power to make these decisions. But I'm like, if we get a season three, if we keep going, every season we got to get someone from the

Broadway musical. 2003, 2004 production. Oh, of Assassins. Right. I'm like, literally, we're just working

with the Assassins. Dennis O'Hare would be perfect. I mean, it's a great, Becky Ann Baker. These are like great, great people. Right. Let's get them all and Baker. These are like great, uh,

great people. Right. Let's, let's get them all in there. Yeah. Right. You know, Patrick Harris could play a chair face chip and they'll love it.

I'll leading up to the musical tick episode. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. That'd be good. I am. I kind of the only person in the cast who can't sing.

Right. But then it would be like Buffy, the Buffy musical episode where Buffy doesn't sing too much. Right. You cut around me. Or no, no, it's Willow who can't sing. Right. You have no shame be like the Buffy musical episode where Buffy doesn't sing too much. Right, you cut around me. No, it's Willow who can't sing. You have no shame. You'd be great. I would certainly commit. Griffin has plenty of shame.

What are you talking about? He just weaponizes it. Not in that way. I weaponize my shame. I make it seem like a choice. Right, exactly. Valerie's a great singer. Peter's a great singer. Have you ever heard Peter... Peter seems like the guy who'd be a great singer.

I mean, those English people also, they are always like five tool talents like secretly where they're like, oh, I can fence and dance. What are you talking about? Yeah. I had to do it for my O-levels. Exactly. Peter does this crazy thing where like the hours on the show are so difficult. It's such a physically demanding thing.

There's so much verbal dexterity that he has to apply for that character uh and he'll stay up until like three o'clock in the morning every night being like can i play something i worked on last night i just thought this i had this idea i thought it was funny and i stayed up working on it and it's either like a video where he'll like cut something together and redub the people or whatever sure or he'll write song parodies like weird al yankovic style yeah but he'll do them in perfect impressions of the people. So he's done like Beatles songs where he just like, he's just changing the lyrics.

You know the beginning of Day in the Life where it's like, get up, get out of bed. He does a version of the song where it never gets out of that period. And Paul McCartney just keeps describing every single thing. And he played it for me. I was like, why did you do this? And he was like, I don't know.

I just thought it was funny. That's his personality. Right. And then you like, go, wait a second. You're like singing really well as Paul McCartney.

He's done the same thing with Bowie. Like he does like a perfect Bowie. Sure. Do a musical episode. Scott and Brennan are both great singers. Get Sondheim on board. Yeah.

Yeah, we should. I bet he would love it. He must love the tick. He must. There's no way that Stephen Sondheim on board. Yeah, I bet he would love to. He must love the tick. He must. There's no way that Stephen Sondheim doesn't watch the tick. Zero percent chance. Okay, box office game?

Yeah, okay, so do you want to explain this game for Michael? It's December 21st, 2007. I'm a crazy person and the only thing that sticks in my brain is box office performances of movies, so I try to guess the box office the weekend that the film came out. Oh, actually. Oh, wow.

This is a good one for you. Okay. You're welcome to join in as well. Please guess. Sorry, what were you going to say? This is literally Christmas? Yeah. Does it come out on a Wednesday?

It's Christmas weekend. It's, yeah, 21st to 25th. It's a four-day weekend. Yeah. It opened to $13 million. And I feel like- Sweeney Todd. Right.

I feel like four or five were the opening day. Sure. And then it dropped 70% on day two. It did pretty well on Christmas. I was looking at its daily. Weird. But, you know, it's Christmas. People go to the movies.

They go see Sweeney Todd. Right. But it opens pretty low. It's like- Open people's throats. Some families, you know. Yes. I think it was 13 for the four day and then like nine.

52 domestic was its final total. Terrible, not great. Which is basically its budget. Yeah. And 152 worldwide. Yeah, so it did, you know, it made okay. No one took a bath on it. Now, number one is a movie we've talked about.

It's a sequel. Okay, Ben loves it. He's pointing to, and he's pumping his fist. It's a sequel in a franchise that never got to go any further. But it did really well. This is the second and last film? That's right. Oh, it can't be the last.

Well, they could make another one. It's been a while. And Ben loves it. And it's from 2007. Yeah, yeah. It's from 2007. Is it National Treasure Book of Secrets? Yeah.

See? Here he is. Nicolas Cage's character's name is it National Treasure Book of Secrets? Yeah. See? Here he is. Nicolas Cage's character's name is Ben. Benjamin Gates? I don't know. I think. I just remember that. Because isn't he supposed to be a great, great descendant of...

Like Benjamin Franklin or something? I think so. I don't know. Which is really cool. Right, because in families... Who won? Would they steal the Constitution or is that the first one? No, the second one is they steal the Book of Secrets.

Right? Of course. I don't know. I haven't seen the second one. I saw the first one. Remember that. I think the first one they steal the Constitution of Secrets. Of course. I don't know. I haven't seen the second one. I saw the first one. Remember that. I think the first one they steal the Constitution. Do you have a national treasure take, Michael?

No. Okay, that's fine. The second one, the big trailer line is, we're going to have to kidnap the president. Yeah, right. They kidnap the president. Right. It was a big hit.

It did really well. They didn't make any of them. It fucking rules. It's like an example of like easy layup to do a third movie, except two things happened. One, Disney shifted to being like we only want to do movies that make a billion dollars.

If a film makes 700 million dollars it's not worth it for us anymore. And two is... And be Nicolas Cage. Like this was the last moment. Time just sort of caught up there. They were like before we do National Treasure 3 what if we do Sorcerer's Apprentice? and they just lost all their goodwill on that one my friend derek simon and i we have spent years trying to stealthily uh do our own sort of real life

national treasure trying to steal the script for national treasure three which exists sure they commissioned it and they wrote it right after this and it's just never gotten off the ground writers or i believe so we have friends who have at different times worked in the Jerry Bruckheimer Productions offices who have stolen pages for us. Truly stolen pages. My friend Derek has two pages framed in his office. No way.

I have them saved to my phone. They're in the cloud. Like we know the opening two or three pages of the script. We're trying to. We're literally trying. We're trying to. We're literally trying. We're trying to steal the script for National Treasure 3. Okay, so that's number one.

It's a huge Christmas movie. I saw it two times in theaters. It was the movie my whole family went to see on Christmas Day because it was that type of movie

where it was like everyone can kind of agree. No one's totally excited except for Griffin. Right. Okay, number two is a film I saw in theaters it's a

kind of a horror movie but like very big budget horror movie with a big star it's really good I've always been very fond of this movie it's a Christmas

truly horror five comedy points this is no ordinary dog not this dog I'll tell you wow Grogan how do I

it's based on a book how do you explain this movie it's scary I saw this in theater I was scared was it an Oscar play at all? No, no, no. Not at all.

So it's a pure commercial play. Totally. It was a big hit. That comes out Christmas time. Yes. It came out the week before. It's dystopian. Yeah, it's the future.

It comes out like it makes $250 million. It makes huge. Oh, oh, I Am Legend. I Am Legend. The Will Smith Omega Man. Yeah, I mean, I feel like you and I share this opinion, which is like one of those movies. That's like his best performance.

It's definitely his best performance. He is so incredibly good in that. Yeah. And it's also one of those movies that is so frustratingly close to being a masterpiece. It's like 80s. It doesn't have a great ending, which is sort of its problem. And the monsters are really bad. Yeah, they should have goopy.

They like, that's one of those crazy movies. I grew up in uh greenwich village where they filmed all that movie my senior year of high school was every night i would look out my window and watch them filming overnights right and they like in the washington like uh square fountain yeah they would have like clearly like movement actors and like dancers in white leotards and vampire makeup running and scurrying around. And I would just like literally like hands on my like, you know, on my chin look at me like someday I'm going to be in the pictures. And then they thought that the vampires look so bad that they like at the last minute CGI'd all of them and they look really bad and really rushed I can't imagine that the practical ones look worse but the stuff that's good in that movie

is so fucking good and Will Smith rules in that do you have an Iron Legend take? you don't have to I'm just agreeing I remember seeing it and I remember when they were filming it too Marin Ireland is a friend of mine. She bleeds from the eyes at the fence at some point.

I remember that vividly. All right, number three is a children's film that you like to talk about. The first in a long-running franchise that is not going away. Right, and ironically, I have only seen two out of the four. And this isn't one of them? No, this is. I hate this fucking movie. It's opening the trip, monks.

That's right. Which makes an insane amount of money. Huge hit. Yeah, I mean... Surprise hit in 2007. Right, the entire, like, sort of economy of a small country. Do you remember the tagline

for the first movie? Alvin! No, no, no. It's really specific. You only would have done this tagline right the first movie? Alvin! No, no, no. It's really specific. You only would have done this tagline right about now. Here Comes Trouble? The original entourage. Oh, fuck that.

In sort of the font of entourage. I also remember the poster. They all had bucket hats and sunglasses on. They had hoodies up and they were cool. Yeah. No, there was a poster that was Jason Lee just leaning into a white negative space, you know,

the void of, you know, humanity and the three chipmunks are there and the tagline was just here comes trouble. That's right.

That's this one here. Here comes trouble and they're all dressed in their sort of entourage adjacent wardrobes. One of them's got a bucket hat. I did not the movie,

I did not know that the film was being made and I went to see a movie with my friends that summer and we walked by that poster and stopped and just stared at it for

five minutes. The original entourage. For five minutes we just looked at it and went here comes trouble. I think Theodore.

Theodore's turtle. Yeah he's little. I guess he's the little one. Right. Simon is he sure yeah

Alvin is obviously Vinny Chase yeah and uh I don't know Dave Saville is Johnny Drama sure uh

who's Ari who's Ari fuck in the first one oh no it is David Cross David Cross plays their shifty agent

in that movie right right those three films are all about David Cross like their shifty agent in that movie. Right, right, right. Those three films are all about David Cross trying to get the better of those chipmunks. And it's one of those things where he signed a three-picture deal because he was like, you're not going to make a fucking sequel. I want to buy a weekend house in the woods.

Let alone a squeakle. Right, just let me do the first movie and get out of it. And by two and three, he would be doing the rounds promoting them and being like i hate these producers i hate them on a personal level i didn't want to be in this movie trying to talk himself out of four right right yeah uh a terrible franchise um the number number five is sweeney todd so number four uh how do i describe it? It's a true story. Legendary director. Legendary screenwriter.

Snooze fest. People kind of forget this movie exists. Charlie Wilson's War. Mike Nichols. Aaron Sorkin. Tom Hanks. Julia Roberts and Philip Seymour Hoffman. Yeah, who got Oscar nominated. And it's like one of those, you wouldn't believe it, but this congressman sold guns

to Afghanistan. It's sort of like... Is it something we need to re-examine now or nope it's one of those it's a movie that ends the like final minute is them being like and actually this is serious and you're like it is and they're like yeah i think so anyway roll the credits like we are not going to get into it you know like it tries to sort of have its cake and eat it too and like totally bungles it. It tries to be sort of Wag the Dog-ish. Right, yes. It's gone from Wag the Dog. Very heightened like Washington with a Clown show.

That's also one of those movies that just has like an insanely overqualified supporting cast of people who are on the verge of becoming like major, like Emily Blunt and Amy Adams in like sort of really- Nothing roles. Right, like Amy Adams plays like his secretary and just takes notes for Tom H Adams in like sort of really nothing roles right like Amy Adams plays like his secretary and just takes notes for Tom Hanks in a bunch of scenes it's like this is the last time Amy Adams

isn't Amy Adams right you know with all the weight that implies um there's one great scene in that movie which is Philip Seymour Hoffman's introduction yeah which is very funny where it's him and John Slattery and he just does because Aaron Sorkin wrote that fucking movie too right I know yes there's one scene of Philip Seymour Hoffman's introduction. Yeah, which is very funny. Where it's him and John Slattery and he just does, because Aaron Sorkin wrote that fucking movie too,

right? I know, yes. There's one scene of Philip Seymour Hoffman doing a five minute Aaron Sorkin monologue to John Slattery that ends with him

taking a hammer and breaking his office window that rules. Great. I watch it on YouTube all the time. The rest of that movie does not exist

and that is one of those movies where a year in advance everyone was like, well, Oscars are it's done roberts they're gonna sweep i mean you would think right it was nichols hanks roberts i think it's one of nichols last movies is it his last i think it's his very last film yeah um right because closer is before that it is 2004 i think that's his last movie um and now do you think it's because my father was a great soda pop maker? Or do you think it's because I'm a fucking spy? Fuck you.

That's the Philip Seymour Hoffman speech. It's really good. Watch it on YouTube. All right. We're done. He says, you fucking child. It's a good Philip Seymour Hoffman yells at someone scene.

Do you want to ask those questions? Oh, yes. So, apologies in advance. Okay. Michael. I have nothing to do with this because you're a wonderful man uh you've been very kind to me we've been so close for so long we've been we've been very friendly i will say uh you know i i was uh very intimidated when you had gotten cast on the show big fan of your work but was like oh fuck went away as soon as we started working together you're famously

terrifying well i did i was like fuck he's like a real actor he's gonna like see through me he's gonna be like walk right up to you and be like excuse me right who's the fucking trained dog right do i have to put peanut butter on my finger in order to trick him could we put him in a velour track suit or something just uh and the first day that we worked together were those two days where we were out in the field where it was like 120 degrees. Oh, yeah. And blowing up cars and shit.

Right. And you were wearing like a camel skin, like coat. Yeah. That was like. Or camel hair. Camel hair. Sorry.

Camel skin would have been really disturbing. Yeah, that would have been a real choice. You were in this coat and then you had like, like stunt harnesses underneath you and everything. And I was in the full costume. That was the day that Peter fainted out of dehydration.

Oh, great. Like it was like a nuts fucking. On the Boy Scout camp in Staten Island. Right. And we had like fire and explosion. We were literally on a Boy Scouts campus. We had our lunch in like the Boy Scouts like cafeteria. Yeah.

And so you and I met like in the tent where we're like both like sweating. Yeah. And it was kind of great because immediately it was like we're both dead. There's no pretense. Double playing field. But David even like said to me, not to out you, David, but you were like, I'm kind of intimidated by Michael coming. And he's like such a like serious actor. I just like I wonder. And I was like, no, he's like the sweetest guy.

He's the best. You know, he's got no ego whatsoever. And you're also just such an incredible artist and so incredible work I need needed to appreciate all that because you're

going to stop being friends with me after this okay so Rachel sometimes producer of the show out the window here at the

Audioboom offices you should let her inside at some point yes she sometimes she'll pop in and work the ones and zeros. She and her friend

big fans of your work. Okay. Big fans of Sweeney Todd and they wrote a series of questions. You're cold reading these as far as I know. I'm cold reading these.

So if I can put on my James Lipton hat for a second. Please. Is Mr. Todd here with us today? Can we speak to Mr. Todd? I suppose you could. Well, not fucking around.

Okay. Question number one. Dear Mr. Todd, what barber school did you go to? Well, I guess I would say the school of Hard Knocks. Sure. Just a little off Fleet Street they have a good they have a good

theater program too right yes and hotel administration I started with shampoo of course oh that's like 101 yeah

working way up now this one feels less like an interview question more like a trivia question to what food stuff do you enjoy comparing hair colors and don't worry there are four options a corn b sunflower c hay d wheat it's supposed to be d but instead they put a second b in i'll take two b okay or not oh oh uh uh mr todd ben's very into this mr todd uh what rhymes with locksmith

i've been stumped by this for years next where did you plan to retire after Vengeance since you hate London so much? Big black pit. You know, your post-Vengeance plans. Black pool. Oh, lovely.

By the sea. Lovely at this time of year. And that's, I mean, it's an expansion. You want to go from a pit to a pool. Even if both are black. Yeah. Sorry if this is too personal.

Did you and Miss Lovett have intercourse? Wow. That's a question? I did not write these questions. I don't speak racial. No, I mean, I'll let Sweeney speak. Could you be more specific? Which Mrs. Lovett?

Wow. I think that answer speaks for itself. Let's just say a barber never tells. Okay. Famous expression. You spend a lot of time teaching Anthony the different shades of blonde hair. Back to the blonde hair. But when Anthony gets to the asylum, he just points to Joanna and says,

that one, do you regret the time you spent teaching Anthony all of that? Do you think of that as sort of sunken cost? He's a fucking idiot. Yep. Yep. Sure. It feels like these questions are very pointed to try to get specific answers. Oh, you're kidding me. It does, and I've managed to do none of them.

When you return to London after 15 years, no one recognizes you except Señor Perales slash Danny O'Higgins. What did you do that he remembers you? Or is face blindness limited to the English? After all, you did not recognize your own wife that you spent 15 years pining on. I mean, this feels kind of cinema, Cincy. You know, I never really looked at her that much when we were together. I had changed my hair. But that really, I guess the Irish really are a more perceptive race.

And you know what? That is sort of the principle your entire life is based around, that a hair can really change a man. Yes, true. You know, a modification of a cut. Are you sorry that you didn't get to kill Anthony? Well, I suppose this is the son I never killed, so in that way, it's probably a good thing. Here's one, and I don't know,

someone else might enter the studio to also answer this question. Who would win in a fight between John Wilkes Booth and you? Oh, my God. John Wilkes Booth has a gun. Yes. I'm forgetting my accents now. Wilkesy. Six emper Tyrannus.

That's a big line. It's kind of the at last my arm is complete again of assassins. I can tell you an interesting anecdote about that. I always knew it from the recording as at last my arm is complete again, which is what Lenkeri was saying. So when I went to do it the first time when Sondheim was there for a run through, I did at last my arm is complete again. And he said, um,

did they change the script? And I was like, no, that's, that's what it says. And he says, no, it should be right arm.

Like, really? My right arm is complete. At last my right arm is complete again. You know, meaning like, metaphorical and literal. But Len Cariou was left-handed. Oh.

So, it was cut for Len. Tricky Len. Mm-handed. Oh. So it was cut for Len. Tricky Len. And another, an assassins-related one. I love doing research for characters, and especially when you have a real person. You can, you know, so I did a lot of- One of the great actors of all time, John Wilkes Booth.

Yeah, exactly. That's what he's mostly remembered for. Yes, exactly. You know, up to that point. Yeah. Right? And he, there's a book, a collection of his letters and stuff. So it was really interesting research.

And I realized that in the Balladeer's song, he says, 27 years of age. Why did you do it, Johnny? And when I was reading, I realized, oh, actually, he was killed. He would have been 27 that year, but he was killed short of his birthday, so he was actually 26. So, you know, thinking I was doing him a big favor, I go up to Steve and say, you know, Steve, oh, boy,

I've been doing a little research, and you're going to thank me for this one. He was actually 26, and there was a pause, and he said, 27 sounds better. I'm like, it's got two syllables. You're Steven Sondheim. Absolutely right. What a tragedy that John Wilkes Booth missed the 27 Club.

He didn't get to join the Jimi Hendrix Club. He could be up there jamming in heaven with Hendrix and Joplin and Cobain. Maybe that's what Steve wanted to do. Right. He was really almost there, too, looking at him. He was like two weeks off of his birthday. Yeah. Yeah.

So Stevie Sondheim's doing some fuzzy math. I mean, you can give him that. Fair enough. I'm going to apologize in advance for this question, which I want to remind everyone was written by Rachel, who usually acts like we are poorly behaved when she appears on this show. I just want to remind everyone that she acts like we are immature. Oh, my God, what's the question?

We've got to wrap this up. There are two questions left. They're both quick. I think you will not want to answer either one. Okay. Did you ever eat Mrs. Lovett's pies? Also, did you ever eat Mrs. Lovett's quote-unquote pie? What?

I should have. You should have screened this. Yeah, I didn't know this. I will say that in our production, they were all pantomimed. The cunnilingus was. Yes, yes. You mean there was not even a prop pie for you to eat. Sure.

Right, right, right. Final question, and another very leading question. Yeah. What did you do with the bones? Carve a nice spoon set? I started a band and played drums. Oh, I love a bone drum. You love a bone drum? Absolutely. I'm a big and played drums oh I love a bone drum

absolutely I'm a big fan of bones let's just drop it right there no follow up to that do you have anything you want to plug people should check out your music yeah loose cattle is my band

we've got a few recordings out there on the uh itunes spotify and you tour around to do shows around yeah we did their finger on the pulse yeah in new york and new orleans especially you play a lot in those places um and uh no i've got i just finished doing something that I'm still, you know, like, will have my tongue removed if I mention it yet. Yeah. And actually, probably. Yeah. Now I'm trying to think, because you've done your Marvel, you got your Marvel punch card, which you weren't allowed to talk about.

Exactly. In fact, now I think I can because it's been on Netflix. Right. It's been enough time. Yeah. Oh, wait, Kevin Feige just walked in and he says it's piano wire. No, we were talking about your Marvel appearance and how you could come back. so right it's been enough time yeah oh wait Kevin Feige just walked in he has a piano wire no

we were talking about your Marvel appearance and how you could come back yeah it's possible I mean the character you know in the comics

does come back as Egghead yeah and you know Tick we don't know you could come back you know toasted

you know you and I have both heard some of the blue sky pitching yeah that they did for ideas for how you could come back that were. That were fantastic. Fantastic. It doesn't happen season two. Yeah. That's a non-spoiler spoiler.

Now you tell me. Yeah. You've been waiting. I've been waiting. I thought this was like kind of, you know, when I was going to find out. Well, yeah, I can tell you season two, we finished filming in July and it comes out April 5th. We're still waiting for a couple of those

final rewrites on the script. Is there any ADR? I think we're still missing some pages on the script. That's the timetable we usually work on. Sure. And Gotham is over now. So I guess I won't be coming back on that either. Right.

I want you to come back. Yeah. I feel like the come back as Egghead. Yeah. I just, I feel like, you know, the first two Ant-Man films have leaned heavily into like science-y

villains. Right, right. And I want the third one to just be like, here's a guy with an egg gun. I think that's what, like,

why, that's what the franchise has been missing all the time. Why build to this sort of like superhero surplus culture if we can't get to the point where a guy's got an egg? I demand it.

I want that. Come on. Yes. Amen three. Amen and the wasp and egghead. We dare you. Right.

Do it and be legends. Thank you for being on the show. Thanks for having me. This is a blast. All right. That's good. And thank you all for listening. Oh.

And please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew G. All right. That's good. And thank you all for listening. Oh. And please remember, rate, review, subscribe. Thanks to Andrew Guto for our social media, Joe Bowen and Pat Reynolds for our artwork, Lane Montgomery for our theme song. Go to blankies.reddit.com

for some real nerdy shit. Go to TeePublic for some real nerdy shirts. And Patreon. Become a checkmate. That's right. Listen to that stuff. We're going through the Marvel film,

so we'll eventually get to Eggman himself, and we'll pause the movie and go on a 40-minute Eggman-specific tenure. Of course. Yes. And as always, you know, I had... Sweeney.

Sweeney. I had one like 45 minutes ago that I was trying to hold on to. Oh, okay. The end of this movie pays out like a blood bank. Good. Very good. There we go. There we go.