Blank Check with Griffin & David - Sweet Charity

Episode Date: July 3, 2022

The minute you walked in the joint…I could see you were a man of distinction, A REAL PODCASTER! “Pod That Jazzcast” - our series on the films of Bob Fosse - kicks off with a real humdinger of an episode, as the boys discuss 1969’s swinging technicolor musical “Sweet Charity.” For folks unfamiliar with Fosse, we give an overview of his life and career in dance and theater leading up to his film directorial debut, and attempt to decipher his creative obsessions (women, fear of balding, isolated body movements, etc). Plus, Ben realizes he loves musicals, and the boys wonder which brass musical instrument has the most inherent humor. Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

Blackjack with Griffin and David Blackjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blackjack The minute you walked in the joint I could see you were a man of distinction A real podcaster Alright, there we go There we go Is There we go.

Bop, bop, bop. Now. Is that what you wanted, Ben? As the opening? Yeah. I kind of wanted you more to do the Sammy D speech. The whole speech? I mean, no.

The whole speech. No, don't you do it. No, no, no, no, no. Put that down. Put that down. We're not doing that. It's a challenge. I'm looking at my phone.

No, no. Put that down. David's eyes are turning red. I'm not interested in that. No, no, no, no. Put that down. Put that down. It's a challenge. I'm looking at my phone. No, no. Put that down. David's eyes are turning red. I'm not interested in that. No, no, no. We're keeping this one on track. We're keeping this one on track? Yes.

Well, this is a famously lean, concise, focused, stripped-down movie. Just realized we need to check a 60s box office game, right? Oh, yes, we do. Okay. Welcome, people, to the show. Come on. What if this is someone game, right? Oh, yes we do. Okay. Welcome people to the show. Come on, what if this is someone's first episode? Jesus, embarrassing. This place sure is full of podcasts.

I'm the only one in here I've never heard of. That's good. I like that. It's a good line. Look at some of the dialogue lines. Incredible line in the movie. It's a great line in the movie. That's a really funny line in the movie.

And you think it's not as good of a line on this podcast when I say it? This room is full of podcasts. This is not something that makes the most sense in the world. Hey, podcaster! Yeah, there you go. That's what I thought you were going to do. Look, this is a podcast. You could tell from the minute we walked in the joint.

Yeah, uh-huh. That this was a podcast, right? We are three podcasters. It's called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. And I'm the producer. Hi, my name is Ben.

I don't know if that's ever been said before. He spoke on mic, so he did have to explain himself. But also, I don't know if you've ever said it as, I am the producer. Hello, my name is Ben, and split them up like that. Well, the thing is, is that maybe if you're a new listener. This is a clean entry point. It's a clean entry point.

Clean entry point. And you just know me as Ben, and I'm the producer. Yeah, that's all you need to know. That's it. There's no other baggage. Nope. Producer Ben. Nope.

Come on. Didn't you hear David? He said lean. I mean, it's the first of, it's a guestless episode. I think I can allow it. Hey. Meet lover. All right.

No, you gotta do it faster. You can't, when you take pauses, that's ridiculous. Fuckmaster Tiebreaker. Yes. The Futzer. That's a new one. The Voice of Reason. Wishfulpin.

Sure. Santa Claus. Santa Claus. I don't have the full list in front. I'm just pulling some from memory. Yeah, just do some from memory. Not Professor Crispy. No.

He has graduated to a series of different nicknames over the course of different miniseries. Such as Producer Ben Kenobi, Kylo Ben, Ben I. Shyamalan, Ben Sate, Save Anything dot dot dot, Warhouse? Ben 19, uh, uh, uh, fuck, Cameron. What's James Cameron? James Cameron is... That's a very obvious one.

Oh, A. Lee Ben's with a dollar sign. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. God, remember when we thought this was going to be a clean entry point episode? Yeah, I know. It's getting further and further away from that. Benetton the Fennel Maker.

You drink Ben Hosley. Fucking, I'm going, I'm freestyling now. You're out of order. The Miyazaki one is the one that's wild, the wildest. The Nausicaa of the Hitch of the Jersey. Ditch. Ditch of the Jersey. Hitch.

Another nickname we have for Ben is Hitch. No, that's not one. The Cure for the Modern Man. Nope. We call him the Cure for the Modern Man. No, we donitch. Another nickname we have for Ben is Hitch. No, that's not one. The Cure for the Modern Man. Nope. We call him the Cure for the Modern Man. No, we don't. Yeah, we do. No, we've never done that.

We're going to do it right now. Anyway, it's Bronco Hosley. What's up? Come on, there's a lot more. Benglish. Okay. Beetle Vape Juice. Yes.

The Hosla Day. Well. Public Benemies. Of course. Stop Making Bens. Yes. Hosbig in the City. Uh-huh. Ben Hosley Met Sally. That's it. Secret. Public Benemies. Of course. Stop Making Bends. Yes. Haas Big in the City. Uh-huh. Ben Haasly Met Sally.

Secret Life of Bends. Uh-huh. That's a really, really bad one. Yeah. We need to think of a better one for that. Ben's in the Haas. Ben's in the Haas. The Haas Break Kid. Opened a Punch-Up, apparently. Ben's Scape from New Haas. What? I don't know.

That's terrible. Yeah. Bronco Haasly is good. Bron? I don't know. That's terrible. Yeah. Bronco Hosley is good. Bronco Hosley is really good. And what's Sam Raimi? Someone had a really good... God damn it. Well, the obvious thing was Spider-Ben 3.

No, that's not the obvious thing. But then an homage to Ben's request that we nickname that series... No, it's Haas the Great and Powerful. That's what it is. Yeah But then an homage to Ben's request that we nickname that series... No, it's Haas the Great and Powerful. That's what it is. Yeah, it has to be that. Can you give him an Haas nickname? Yes, Haas the Great and Powerful.

I was going to say, in homage to when Ben suggested that we call that miniseries Spider-Pod 3 cast, that the nickname is Spider-Ben 3 Haasly. No, it's Haas the Great and Powerful. No, that one's just too clean. And you're too into that. You're like, we have to pay homage to Ben's stupid suggestions. No. No, we don't.

It's actually pretty funny and smart. Mm-hmm. No, Hos the Great and Powerful is good because, one, it sounds like the thing. It does sound good. And two, he is great. Okay, you know what? I'm fine. I'm powerful.

I'm just going to sometimes off my column, Spider-Man 3 Pot. Hosley. Those are all his nicknames. Anyway, we did that. So welcome to Blank Check. Do the rest of the spiel. It's a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers

and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a huge opening bounce it is a rare the rare opening flop yeah yeah maybe you make a little movie that no one sees but to make a big movie that was a flop and then have a successful career yes unusual yeah and also he falls into this category uh we've covered a couple directors like this before, namely

Efron and Elaine May, but people who had a lot of success in a slightly different role. So their first film is viewed with a lot more anticipation, a lot more expectation. He was given a long fucking leash on this movie.

We're talking about Bob Fosse. Bob Fosse! And I believe, David's doing the hands. I believe this miniseries is called Pod That Cast. Yeah, so he thinks it's called Pod That Cast, but there's Zs. C-A-Z-C-T. And I think it should be Pod That Jazz Cast. Pod That Jazz Cast.

Just because I think jazz is a good word. Yeah. The other option is Podcast Beret. Yeah, I mean. Option two, David wins. Option two, David wins? Yeah. Pod That Jazz Cast?

Pod That Jazz Cast, which is what you put in an email subject line to one of our future guests. I know, but what did I put in brackets after that? You said working title. I said working title, and then I did a punch up. I came with pod that cast. You did a punch down.

At least it's a punch sideways. At least it's a lateral punch. It's a clean side punch. No, you're like those bad comedians. You were punching down. Oh, no. David's using his hands a lot this episode. First he had Fosse jazz hands.

Now he's giving me the wagging finger. You did a dikembe and then I did a punch down. You did a dikembe. Pod that jazz cast. I mean, if you really hate it, I'll give you pod that cast. I think it just, it doesn't sound like you're, you can't hear the Zs. It's hard to hear them. You have to pronounce it

it's about performance pod that cast pod that cast I think he's struggling he's really struggling struggling let's buy clean delivery and pod that cast

it's funny it's All That Jazz of course is a song in Chicago the musical which he never did film

but also he made a movie called All That Jazz. He did. Referencing that song. And he did Chicago on Broadway. He sure did. Yeah. But he never filmed it. No.

Because he was sitting there and he was like, Marshall's going to need this one. And they were like, who? And he was like, you'll see. Frankie. No, not Frankie. Rob Marshall. Jesus Christ.

Jesus. Frank Marshall. Frank Marshall made it. Frank Marshall. Coming off of arachnophobia or something in Chicago. That'd be interesting. Falling up Congo with him. Exactly. Right.

No. All that jazz. I'm sorry, Ben. You have to make a decision. Griff is going to be annoying about this. Yeah. For every episode, he's going to be like, it's called Pod That Jazz Cast. I was overruled by a jury of my peers.

I know. I know. And it's called Pod That Jazz Cast. I was overruled by a jury of my peers. I know, I know. And it's all riding on me right now. Mario Van Peebles, like, rated X by an all-white jury. Like, you know how he did that? That's what Griff's going to do about the... Pod That Jazz Cast. Yeah, I've seen you do it three times now. Three, and you missed a couple.

He's done it a lot. Yeah, and every time I... You know what it is, too? It's hearing the nicknames and knowing that then we would have to revisit this title throughout the series. It's only five episodes, right? Only five.

It's only five. Five and then a bonus. We'll do a Patreon. Sure. We'll do a Patreon. But the thing is, is there's a legacy to this. You have to think about your legacy.

Ben's thinking about the legacy. You gotta think, you gotta think, you know, years ahead. Right. David wins. Wow! And I wasn't even, well, it's okay. I'm happy. I thinking about the legacy. You gotta think years ahead. Right. David wins. Wow! And I wasn't even... Well, it's okay.

I'm happy. I'll take the victory. I'll take the victory! You gotta take the W is where you get him. No, but look... David's throwing up a big dub. The hands, I can't... He's inspired by Fosse. He's really using the hands to express himself this episode. The spirit of Bob.

David's also wearing a little hat. A little hat. I'm suddenly way too horny, even by my standards. That's all in black. I mean, I'm not, but I'm wearing a black shirt. I'm wearing a congratulations shirt.

He's wearing a congratulations shirt. Look, Bob Fosse, one of my all-time favorite filmmakers, someone I've talked about wanting to do since the beginning. He's probably been on our March Madness bracket like four times or something every single time he does and i don't know why apart from i guess he's not you know quote-unquote cool these days or something i don't know or it's a short filmography it's one of my favorite people it is just fascinating fucking filmography

i agree we've always wanted to do him. So we decided to do him and now we're doing him. Now we're doing him. That truly is the story. Yeah. I mean, he's just like, like him, Beatty,

I guess Barbara Streisand. There's a few where it's like these little, these little filmographies. Right. Compact but fascinating. Yes. We've never, you know,

we've always had them on the pile. Now we're taking this one on the pile. Yes. Now we're taking this one off the pile. Yeah. I'm doing too much hands. Excited to do it.

This is the only movie of his I hadn't seen before. Same. Have I? I don't, I don't know if I've seen Lenny. Oh, really? Maybe I've seen

in high school. I don't really remember Lenny. Lenny was the one for me because I feel like 90s, big Fosse revival period on Broadway. Because of the success

of the Chicago revival. Right. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, sure. And then they do that Fosse, the review show. Indeed. His name is floating around a lot.

So I feel like as a kid growing up in New York City, I'm like, Bob Fosse, some dance guy. You're walking down 37th Street and someone goes, Fosse?

Right. Whoa. Okay, get over yourself. But what? That was everyone. Fosse, some dance guy. You're walking down 37th Street and someone goes, Fosse? Right. Whoa. Okay, get over yourself. But what? There was everyone at Fosse. Fever. Oh, David's moved from hands to arms. Well, you know.

No, I know. I know. I was like musicals as a kid, but the Fosse thing, I was like, I don't get with this thing. What is this thing? Well, when you're a kid. Especially as a child, that's not like fun musical. Did he write the music? No, he was a choreographer.

He was a director. Is the show's name back from his life story? No, it's like a review of his pieces. Yeah, if you were doing a show based on his life story, it wouldn't be on Broadway.

It would be in the red light district. Remember being on vacation with my family? I don't remember where. Okay. And it might surprise you to hear that often

my parents would be like, let's go to a museum. Sure. Go outside. And I'd be like, there's a really good movie on TV in the hotel. I want to stay here. Would they leave you in the hotel? I guess it depends on your age.

Yeah. A certain age, they probably could just be like, you know what? Yeah. Yeah. But when I was like maybe 13 on vacation with my family, I saw Lenny on TV. It was flipping through channels. Lenny on TV. I was flipping through channels. Lenny comes on. I think I actually filibustered to stay and watch the entire thing.

Or maybe then I rented it and watched it in whole. It was one of those movies where I watched the first. Lenny starts, and the first three minutes, I was like, what the fuck is this? And my dad was like, this is a Lenny Bruce biopic directed by Bob Fosse. And I was like, the dance guy? My dad was like, Bob Fosse's secretly one of the best directors of all time.

Good director. Low-key, a good director. Really? You think that? And he's like, yeah. Bob Fosse's like, really fucking dark. I was like,

Bob Fosse's dark? And that movie is such an unconventional biopic that it still feels like more biopics should be pulling from. So then after that, I watched the other four.

And was like, maybe I didn't see Star 80 until later. Yeah, I was going to say, you saw Star 80 as a teenager. I saw Cabaret and all that jazz pretty quickly after. But I was just like, this guy fucking rules. I think this guy really, actually, in a way few people can say, introduced

some new things into the filmic language. Certainly the movie musical. musical no i would say just just the movie the movie language movie movies it's sort of like the vertical editing style that's sort of like then you know oliver stone other people take to the next level but also like i would argue he was kind of the first guy to really sort of use editing as choreography, if that makes sense. Yeah, baby, it does make sense. Right? Like, the beauty of old movie musicals was long takes, sweeping cameras, this and that.

Modern musicals, too much coverage, fucking five cuts, every dance sequence cut to ribbons. It's just meaningless. They're cutting on rhythm, but it's just, like, arbitrary. And with Fosse, the move from image to image feels like a dance in and of itself. He's doing freezes. He's doing slow motion. This movie is fucking... There's a lot of very interesting stuff.

Every technique. The freeze frame thing in particular is fascinating because it's like you're doing the opposite of a musical now. Right. You're telling me you're literally freezing an image and holding it? This is a movie that, I mean, we'll dig'll dig into his life because uh jj birch our beloved researcher did send us a message at like 3 a.m last night he's gonna take it easy i mean we we threw this at him late it wasn't all right it wasn't no it was it was 2 25 a.m yeah is that yeah jj you know this is right this will be the context heavy episode because Bob Fosse didn't make a movie

until he was in his 40s. He lived a life. He said 45, 42 years of a man's life in 17 pages. And then JJ's follow up is, if I can read this. One thing I don't think I mentioned enough is that he was literally never not having sex with a ton of women that were not any of his three wives. I mean, look, I don't know. I guess you probably didn't watch Fosse-Verdon.

I did. Oh, you did? I did. Okay, well, I assume other people watched that too. Yeah. And that kind of, you know, that kind of relit maybe the understanding people had of this guy was a total horndog who was always up to no good. Right, yes.

After the Chicago revival, it was like, ah, Bob Fosse, he had a bowler hat or something. What did he do? Jazz hands, great. And then Fosse-Verdon was like, this man fucked 24 hours a day he was no he was he was it was a rascal and had these like very sort of unusual years-long emotionally tortuous relationships with these women who were his muses and his collaborators and he seems like just a very stressful person to be around in general i think he was a man with a lot of demons

and that's why i think you know this is his one movie where he's sort of trying to play by the rules of the movie musical as it was known at that point in time sure but also he's he's throwing a lot of other shit on there and he the movie musical is also maybe on its last legs right the classic music because when's hello dolly that's 1969 as well the same year as this this is the year where it's sort of like collapsing what are we doing here we're spending a fortune on these like very very like elaborate pretty costumed musicals that are kind of long and audiences are like like fossey's putting all his shit into this movie but he's also trying to do a musical that functions the way that audiences are used to movie musicals functioning, largely.

Yeah. And in Cabaret, he completely breaks the thing down and reconstructs it in one movie. But that's three years from now, of course. And then everyone's like, Fosse, the musical guy. And he's like, what if I make, like, three back-to-back-to-back biopics of, like, the darkest, most haunted. I mean, all that jazz is kind of a musical. It is, but another very weird very unconventional musical yeah i mean just an absurd blank check where like ben was talking about kind

of it is a musical but it's uh it's an odd version of music on my autobiography we're talking about the legacy right yeah the not wanting to call this miniseries podcast because of the legacy it will leave behind. Right? Yes. I've been watching a lot of old Fosse interviews as opposed to the recent ones.

The recent interviews aren't as good. No, he was on Marin but it was weird. It was weird. He got allergic to the cats and yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, and just a lot of dead silence. Yeah. There was one after All That Jazz came out or when it was about to come out where they were asking him the thing that everyone

asked him at the time which is like, you made this movie about you dying. Like you had a near death experience and then you made a movie that spoiler alert is about the death, the thing killing you. Are you like trying to control your own legacy? Are you like trying to get ahead of it? And he did. He said, like, I mean, that's any of this shit. What are you talking about?

Anyone who makes a movie is trying to outlive themselves. Sure. They're trying to leave something behind. Yeah. And he made a lot of movies about people who are, like, struggling to figure out what they leave behind and the impact they make on the world and all these sorts of things. Before that, he made a movie about a lady named Charity. Yeah, Charity. She's just trying to figure shit out. Yeah, Charity. She says her full name, and now I can't find it. before that he made a movie about a lady named charity yeah charity yeah charity what is her

she says her full name and now i can't find it charity hope valentine there you go good name right charity hope valentine this is so my kind of movie what's the movie called we haven't said sweet charity sweet charity but um adventures of a girl who wanted to be loved just trying to make it in the city yep on your own own. That is my kind of story. It's kind of your favorite sort of movie. I really love it. This movie was great, man. David, as you put on Letterboxd, she seems like a good hang.

She seems like a great hang. I feel like there's not enough devoted to this movie, in this movie, to how good a hang she is. People are always like, oh, Charity, what are you up to now? Oh, boy, what's going on? And I'm like, she's a good hang. People are like, you know what, Charity, what are you up to now? Oh, boy, what's going on? And I'm like, she's a good hang. People are like,

you know what, Charity, you're a good hang. I mean, I think, look. Give me a song called You're a Good Hang. You're a good hang. Sweet Charity. Bob Fosse,

Robert Louis Fosse, to his friend. Let's call him Bobby. Was born in June 1927 on the north side of Chicago. His parents, Cy and Sad sadie his dad's a a hershey salesman a traveling salesman for hershey which sounds a lot better than like if you're a traveling salesman for trumpets or you know aluminum siding or whatever it's like

i'm a traveling salesman get out wait i'm selling chocolate oh oh okay come on in i love chocolate let's maybe bring door-to-door chocolate bars back um yes his dad was a traveling salesman uh his mother was an opera extra uh he was the fifth of six children he had double pneumonia when he was a little boy and this is such a thing with so many filmmakers yes especially back in the day scorsese being the one i'm thinking of obviously where it's like what's their childhood? They got sick when they were a kid and they were always being coddled or they were always in the

hospital or they were always in bed rest. They were all outside from a window. And their mother took them to the pictures. Right. All the time. And they were like, oh my god, the pictures. Well, I also think it is this thing that he always was sort of a weirdly sickly looking man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not the sort of live, you know, strong dancer type that you might imagine. Despite being in good shape in that sense. And he obviously also had his vices of drinking and smoking obsessively and all of that. But I think it's a big thing you get into when you start digging into his early life was like he so badly wanted to be Fred Astaire. And people kind of kept on saying to him directly or indirectly like you're kind of creepy you're really you're not reading as good as what you do but you're not charming anyone in a clean all-american showman kind of way but as a little boy he was a good boy his mother coddled him while his brothers roughhoused outside uh i was a good kid so i had to be a good kid you're trapped by your own publicity that's

the fossey quote about himself very clever yeah uh when he was nine he took his sister patsy to the chicago academy of theater arts because he had a crush on one of his sister's friends. And there he met Fred Weaver, his early mentor, who was the guy who got him into dancing. And he's like 13 at this time? He's nine. Jesus. Nine-year-old boy. So Fred Weaver's motto, apparently, remember this. There's always someone better than you.

Remember that. You're not the best. There's always someone better than you remember that you're not the best there's always someone better than you and everything's been done before anytime you learn about like classic Broadway dancers yeah it just sounds very intense you know like it never sounds like anyone was having any fun with Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire or you it's just like no this is 12 hours a day sweating you know learning every step uh all that shit uh another nice lady marguerite cumberford taught him ballet he kept his dancing that he was being taught secret course didn't want to be mocked by the boys didn't want to be mocked by the boys so he would hide the tights

and the ballet shoes the boys he said would accept the tap sure yeah maybe the tumbling not the not the ballet not the tights so what happens is as you say very young he gets more into tap he's not into ballet he gets together a bunch of kids and they start doing shows like reviews around town at like the ymca or whatever churches right he pretty quickly gets pulled into the like the burlesque circuit um yeah well right i guess so like because it's god he signs a contract with frank weaver that gives him like 15 of his dancing earnings for 10 years when he's like a teenager it's like the the rick mackie deal oh my god um so uh so he's working with uh charlie grass that's another dancer who is more ballet fossey was more into tap so they would do like interplay stuff right you know one's doing

one one's doing the other and they do kind of like acrobatics flipping off of each other or whatever it's hard to describe dance uh yes it's hard to hard to you know uh how to put all that it is funny though when you read this stuff like you, a shittier biopic of someone like Bob Fosse would have a moment where someone does something by accident. He goes like, wait a second, that's interesting. Yeah. Right? And suddenly the style is born. Right, right.

That there was some aha moment. But it really does feel like this guy was just seeing things from a slightly different angle from the beginning and was just constantly adding new angles to things but that's what like i'm not a dance expert i enjoy dance but i rarely attend like dance performances right i love broadway musicals and i love dancing and probably musicals but i don't go to a lot of ballet or modern dance because i don't i'm not good at seeing like what they're recognizing what's different about what they're doing or whatever. And so when you hear, oh, Bob Fosse invented this move, you're like, I guess now that you've told me that, I can see that, that that's different. But I'm not good

at automatically. No, no, no. When I went to college very briefly, my best friend was a dancer. I'd go to those dance shows. I'd be like, I don't know how to judge this. I dated a dancer. I didn't know how to judge it. It's hard to judge it. It's an embarrassing, I'm not judging it like good, bad.

No, I know what you mean. But I would just be like, if I'm watching dance as part of a narrative, I fucking love it. As you said, I fucking love watching dancing in musicals.

And if I'm just watching a top-to-bottom dance show, I'm too much of a dummy to fucking understand what's going on. That having said, Fosse-style dancing always chom dance show, I'm too much of a dummy to fucking understand what's going on. That having said, Fosse-style dancing always chomps out to me. It certainly does. That is

very true, yes. There's an aggressiveness. There is a darkness. I don't know. Yeah, Nelly, my girlfriend, musical theater person, went to college for that stuff. She really, I think, put or or I just, I'll read here

how she sort of encapsulated his approach to dance. It's based in small isolations. Isolations meaning isolating the movement of just a hip or hand or shoulder. Like everything being still, but one movement. The focus on one part of the body. And I really see that in this film. And I haven't seen any of his other films, but.

Look, we're three guys who admit we don't know about dance. I'm sure we're going to step in it and try and talk about these things. But I do think there's that weird, sometimes staccato nature to the Fosse thing. It's like really, it's like just hitting the shoulder, but then that opens itself to your hip, but then it opens to your leg. But it's not like Fly Girl, every limb is moving at the same time.

It's not a fluid, graceful thing. It's like there'll be moments of fluidity that end abruptly. Yeah, it's very like jerky, stiff kind of. He starts, well well i guess this comes later but like he loves doing the hand shit they talk about a lot of jazz hands he just fucking loves the hands and they're like keep doing your fucking keep your finger and he just couldn't stop splaying them out he always was self-conscious they didn't have good hands and

was wearing gloves at a very young age because he thought his hands were ugly i'm sure he had very nice hands he hated his hands maybe what if i I saw a picture of his hands and I was like, Jesus fucking Christ. Anyway, as you mentioned, a 13-year-old Fosse and his partner, Charlie Grass, I think that's the name, right? Yeah, Charlie Grass. Yes. Made their debut professionally

with an 11-minute performance in 1940 at the Oak Theater. So that was his first, I guess, pro credit. They get to be mildly successful. Weaver is driving them around. They're getting on trains even. Despite all of this, he kept it secret from his friends. People thought he was gay, I guess. It's 1940, you know, like whatever.

What would one man imagine? 1940s kid getting into tap and ballet. But there, I mean, it does feel like a part of the formation of the Fosse style is trying to find a way to make dancing hypersexual. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. No, you're right. Defensive, you know, sort of like, yeah.

As you also mentioned, he, you know, starts dancing in burlesque clubs. He basically says, I can romanticize it, but it was an awful life. I was lonely. I was scared. You're in hotel rooms, 13 or 14. He was basically, I would say, sexually assaulted by older women. I think his odd relationship with sexuality

has formed in these years. Yeah. I mean, I think we'll get into it more, but like, you know, just, yeah, like sexual encounters at way too young an age This odd relationship with sexuality has formed in these years. Yeah. I mean, I think we'll get into it more, but like, you know, just, yeah, like sexual encounters at way too young an age where he clearly had no idea what was going on. And just exposure to a lot of adult stuff. You're behind the scenes. Yeah. Like very seedy for the time clubs as well.

And it's a, it's an unseemly element. Boozing, smoking. Boozing. If you are attempting to be an entertainer, this is the space where you don't want to end up, right? Yeah. This is either like you couldn't make it in the legit clean world of entertainment,

or this is where you start and you move past. And I think Fosse kept a foot there always. He could never totally shake it. It's probably because he was in it at such a formative age i mean his whole identity was shaped around these people in 1945 he is drafted to serve in the united states military because there's a war on i don't know if you know about this yes what one world war two oh there was a there was a sequel world war two II. See, they've always been doing fucking sequels. People like to claim like it's a modern pox, but...

And they're probably, you know, like everyone's obsessed with franchises. They'll probably bring it back soon enough. But you know what? The next one, they won't even call it World War III. They'll give it a subtitle. And let's... I'll call it World War Revolution.

It's World War... World War Rising. Yeah, World War... World War Rising. Yeah, sure. Rising, right. Salvation. Look, he requested to do entertainment stuff, as an little 18-year-old burlesque dancer might. That was denied,

but then luckily, as he joins boot camp, the war ends. Yeah. Because it's 1945, and so he did actually get kicked over to the naval liaison unit where he uh was uh doing more just like touring and stuff i guess i don't know you know they put on a combat train they're like it's taking this guy fucking 17 minutes to fire the gun he's gotta do this whole fucking rigmarole with the finger before he even throwing things in

the air what's he doing over your shoulder The guy's in front of you Sliding it down his back They would do shows at bases All over the world Guam, Hawaii Okinawa, all the way to Tokyo They would do sketches

With inside jokes He would play girls in drag And so on And he also Eloped before leaving for war with inside jokes. He would play girls in drag and so on. And he also eloped before leaving for war. Boy, that marriage was annulled. By his mother because they were both underage. Correct.

So that doesn't even count as one of his three marriages. Right, that's the fourth bonus. That's not on main feed, that marriage. And also, supposedly a stripper much older than Fosse showed up on his mother's doorstep saying she was pregnant with Fosse's son. JJ put song here by mistake, which is funny.

And Weaver, quote, dealt with it. His mother dealt with it, whatever that means. We can imagine. And then he moves to New York. Yep. Living in the YMmca right near broadway uh and quickly he was cast as the dance lead in the national production of call me mister with buddy hackett and carl reiner he's just you know teaching him how to dance yep he meets his

first non-an old wife yeah marianne Niles. Who becomes the first sort of major female muse mentor toward relationship in his life. Who I believe was 12 to 15 years his senior. He said he never even knew quite how much older she was than him. Even after they got married. Back in the day, people didn't really know how old people were. You could really just kind of be like, I'm 20. You could really just kind of fuck around. IDs didn't really know how old people were right you could really just kind of be like i'm 20 you could really just kind of fuck around i mean yeah ids didn't have pictures yeah yeah a couple sentences like i don't know i've got two eyes and nose so they they work together for

brown hair or some shit this thing says you have eyes i can see you do so that's good all checks out here uh he starts now can i smoke on the plane of course you can sir right this way you know then they move people to the back like it was like you could smoke on the plane and then it was the back couple rows are smoking yeah that must have been bizarre just this like little cloud like hanging at the back of a plane cool kids in the back yeah sure all right so he's with marion niles but then they both get cast in a broadway production called dance me a song and that's where he meets joan mccracken who's wife too and i think that was a very exciting time for bob bossy

and a very rough time for marion niles who was uh you know, losing her status as the object of his affection. Sure. But then they start working with Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis on the Colgate Comedy Hour. I know. Gotta bring that back. Colgate Comedy Hour? No, just like, networks should just be like, there's a toothpaste that's sponsoring an hour of entertainment for you, right?

Like, just go all the way back to the beginning of television anyway so they're dancing on the colgate comedy hour which must have just been absolutely the funniest fucking shit in the world these jokes big toothbrush joke you know there's nothing better than that classic running sketch dean martin lit at 1 p.m or whatever but mccracken is like you should be a choreographer bob you're you know you're you're too good to be like a nightclub dancer or whatever this is actually i'm sorry it might be the one with the age difference i was thinking about but he says that she was the one yeah she was 10 years older than him joan mccracken so yes that's

you might have even i'm sorry i gotta you gotta fucked up and that's why So yes, that's your idea. And you might have even, I'm sorry, I got to mix up here. You got it fucked up, and that's why you got to be put in the box. Put me in the box. Yeah, put me in the box. He said yes. Joan McCracken, an inspiration for Holly Golightly in Breakfast at the Fittest. Oh, wow. No, this interview I watched the other night, he was saying that she was the first person who actually was like, your ambition should be much larger.

Yes, exactly. Don't just dance. Come on, Bob. You're smart. You should be teaching people how to dance. ambition should be much larger yes exactly don't just dance come on bob you're smart you should be teaching people how to dance you're designing dance exactly 51 bob fossey gets the summer stock lead role in pal joey a musical that is very crucial to the bob fossey story a good show one of those shows it's not really about much it's kind of like sweet charity what if there was a guy called Joey, you know? He's a good pal. Yeah. Have you ever seen Pal Joey?

I feel like they're reviving on Broadway every 20 years. I feel like there was a Stalker Channing Pal Joey like 20 years ago. Am I wrong about that? Let's see. Stalker Channing. Yeah, I'm seeing her. She played Vera in the night 2008 Broadway revival. Yeah. There's also there was one in 95 with Peter Gallagher.

I remember that one. Yeah. Can you imagine what Fosse could have done with those pussy willows? What he could have done? Teasing them out. Just two eyebrows doing Fosse movements. Put tap shoes on those things. You could have.

You could, yeah. You could have an eyebrow tap. Tap brows That'd be good MGM signs him At this point To a contract So he's doing that

But he's also still Doing Pal Joey Right He never actually Got to play Pal Joey On Broadway Yeah He would play him

Nationally Like on tours and stuff And so But MGM's like Let's put you in movies They put him in Stanley Donen's Jumbo which I think, did that ever even happen

or is that sort of like a film that actually Am I wrong about that? Yeah, it did. But it's a flop. He was in another Stanley Donen movie Give a Girl a Break because replacing Gene Kelly

who is getting too expensive but yeah, none of this stuff is good his role gets kind of cut down he wanted to be Fred Astaire he wanted to be the sort of hyper masculine super charming confident smooth leading man

of musical theater and everyone's like the other thing is it's like MGM is like Louis Mayer is dead, like recently dead. Right. MGM is sort of, well, we'll still be grand old MGM, but they don't, the ship is rudderless. The appetite for these kinds of movies is fading a little bit, right?

You know, like it's not the golden era, I guess, anymore. I mean, I might be stepping, you know, a little bit ahead. But another thing is he starts losing his hair very very young which is when the hats come into play he does that is why he's into the hats it's why both looking at me i know i'm just saying but but he it's also why he puts like all of his fucking actors in hats because he's like yeah we all wear hats what are you talking also that was an era for balding men where hats were also very i think just like part of everyday wear more so than it is yes oh right and took the train those cuckoo crazy ad guys and gals

the only successful kind of real mark he makes in this period is Kiss Me Kate. He's in Kiss Me Kate, and he's given a 45-second segment that he can choreograph for himself. And you can see it, and it does feel very Fosse-y. But he was kind of like, you know, he's like, I'm doing terrible out here. Have either of you seen Kiss Me Kate, the movie? Probably as a kid. Not in a long time. Friend of the show Joe Garden and I went to see that about 10 years ago, maybe at Film Forum. They did, like,

in the post-Avatar 3D boon, Film Forum did a whole festival of 3D movies. Yeah, one of those classic posters where a guy is spanking a lady to teach her a lesson. That's like the end of Act 1, where people are like, holy fucking shit. It's the taming of the show. He spanks a lady, and her a lesson. That's like the end of Act 1 where people are like, holy fucking shit. It's the taming of the ship.

He spanks a lady and people are like standing up and hooting and hollering. It's a fucking Jerry Springer show audience. Film Forum did a really great series of 3D. It's a classic, you know, red and blue 3D, right? Right. But when all the sort of digital 3D technology was perfected in the 2000s,

a lot of those movies were converted to be able to be projected in digital 3D without the fucking color tinting and modern glasses and all that stuff. So you could see it really clearly and everything. And that movie is like really fun on a 3D level. It's cool to see a 3D musical. The film is just kind of like whatever. It feels so perfunctory.

And then there are these 45 seconds where Bob Fosse comes out and you're like, what the fuck just happened? It truly is. It's like the way I talked about the fucking Anthony Lane's Spider-Man 3 Sandman review where he's like, there's like a minute in the middle of this where you wouldn't rather be anywhere else in the world. And the movie goes back to the moment you're like, we're just going to pretend like that didn't fucking happen. Like that didn't fucking happen. And it's so odd because it's not just him as a performer, but it's also like him as an author. Just completely changing the language, the energy, the vibe of the movie in 45 seconds.

And there's clearly like he hits upon something where it's like, fuck, wait a second. Maybe we're not using this guy the right way. Well, when the movie comes out, George Abbott, who's a big Broadway director, sees it and is like like you what's this who's this guy um brings him in to do choreography for a musical he's got going called seven and a half cents which he cleverly retitled the pajama game because seven and a half cents is a terrible title for a musical or for anything really and you imagine people walk up seven and a half pennies, and they're like, no, the ticket's a dollar. They feel like...

Can I get one to seven and a half cents? Here's my seven cents, and I broke one penny in half. I assume that's how much it costs. And they're like, no, you owe me a dollar, and also good luck using that half penny on anything. And the guy's like, well, I got you now, because it's sharp.

Give me a ticket for free! He's holding the penny to his neck. What happens next? What does the guy say? The the guy says the movie's called the pajama game i'll accept one set of pajamas he's like okay all right like the show yeah any hands over some pajamas anyway jerome robbins is working on the pajama game this is a big break for bob fossy calls his dad he says i'm choreographing the dances for a new show an abbott show dad says what's choreographed he says i'm gonna be making

up the steps for the other dancers the dad says you're gonna give away your steps i'm not joking that's that's that's the quote you're gonna give away your stuff how old is he at this point like i mean if it's 19 like let's say like 54 or whatever yeah he's like yeah early 20s 23 24 yeah um we've already lived a lifetime. Yeah, a little bit. That's crazy. But this is all these, you know, like we haven't covered older directors.

Yeah. But you know, if we do, it is often, it's like, yeah, they got their start at five, like, you know, working the Grand Ole Opry. He was sweeping up peanuts at the circus or whatever. Right. Like they're always, yeah. Sidney Matt was like a child star

and then he was like a TV director by like 12. It was also a time in the world where you just had to grow up faster. That's true. Yeah. That's true, Ben. Yeah. Well said, thank you.

Ben. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm very loose. Standing up and doing a posse. I'm very loose today. I don't know what's going on with me. Then they do a film adaptation of The Pama game sure so he kind of works on that he's i think he's just credited as like the choreographer whatever but that's like

he like does a lot of behind the scenes like he's learning how to make movies him making a big splash on broadway hollywood coming in to do the movie and either like hiring him to just do the choreography again or just pretty much running with everything he did he doesn't get to make the films no but they're all running off the juice of what he's sort of launched on broadway yeah pajama game is a good show um and he won a tony for doing the choreography of the pajama game so good for him uh then he goes from pajama game to damn yankees, another classic. Joan McCracken, I think, is at this point getting ill because she died in 61. They divorced a little before that, but she died at the age of 43, fairly young.

So he's working on that. And who does he meet making Damn Yankees? His eye turns to a lady called Gwen Verdon Who is An actress and dancer In this new show Have you ever seen Damn Yankees Yeah do you know what Damn Yankees is about I love Damn Yankees as a kid

I think a Damn Yankees movie is pretty fun It is fun and it makes sense that he likes it as a kid It's a high concept musical Does it have anything to do with the Rock and roll super group featuring Bob Dylan, Tom Petty, Ted Nugent? Wasn't Ted Nugent in it? Yeah, exactly. Someone else.

No, it doesn't. Oh, it doesn't have to do with that. It has to do with, it's Tommy Shaw, Ted Nugent, Jack Blades. Anyway, it doesn't matter. No, it's basically like, at the time, it's set during the 50s, the contemporary time,

when the Yankees are always the team that wins the pennant. Those damn New York Yankees. Sort of like the 90s around where people are like, it's no fun. The Yankees fucking win. And the Washington Senators,

their basement dwellers, the worst team in baseball, and so they make a deal with the devil to to beat the yankees that sounds fun i know it's a good concept um but what's funny is that it's also like the lead character is just a fan of the team yeah right right it's not it's like management right the movie's not about like the yankees you know that's what that's what's in the outfield is about i know it has to be a devoted fan right like he's just like these damn yankees i'd fucking do anything for them to win again and then like a musical

theater satan shows up he's like anything i i and now i'm thinking about angels in the outfield because like that's obviously that's an old movie right right and then they remade it in the 90s this is joseph gordon levin yeah right yeah and i remember i saw in the 90s and the concept is like you know right he's like deadbeat dad is he's like dad when will you love me again and dad's like i in the 90s. This is Joseph Gordon-Levitt? Yeah, Joseph. Right. And I remember I saw it in the 90s and the concept is like, you know, right, his like deadbeat dad is, he's like,

dad, when will you love me again? And dad's like, I don't know, when the angels win the pennant. Right. Right? It's like something like that.

Correct. And he's like, okay, I pray to the angels that the California angels win the pennant. And then, like, I watched it and I was like,

so the angels are so bad that this guy feels confident making this promise. Yeah. And then like, I'm like, why do you want your team to be associated with this movie like that's all i was just always confused it's just the thing i'm so funny why would the team be like yeah sure sure yeah the script looks good yeah use our logos that's fine our team is so shitty that a deadbeat dad can be like yeah sure kid I never have to see

this fucking kid again. Zero chance. You would literally need divine intervention. When I was a kid and I would look at the standings and if the angels were doing okay, I'd be like,

I don't understand this. Canonically, this team is bad. Only divine intervention can help them. Same with Damien Keys, obviously. Only Satan could help the washington senators

uh anyway he has an affair with gwen verdon okay sure well he's making it and you know what else he gets addicted to amphetamines all right you got a problem with that well it was bound to happen sooner i mean that you know in those days they're over the counter you get those greenies they would fucking give them to children to lose weight or whatever yeah they were they were you could get them easy um god what a time if i was alive i'd be dead probably um uh and and of course joe mccracken is also having like a total like health meltdown like she's dying. Yeah. And so she eventually was like putting an oxygen tank or put on an oxygen, you know,

and he would visit her. And apparently like eventually the visits less and less. He's, you know, obviously they get divorced. They would, he would still call her and they would have long conversations until her death in 1961.

Yeah. But he's at that point, you they would have long conversations until her death in 1961. Yeah. But he's at that point, you know, getting with Gwen, who he married in 1960. Yeah, look. So a year after the divorce. Luckily, we have an entire movie coming up about this that we will talk about. So much goss.

All of his behaviors with women. So much drama. He gets a chance to choreograph his hero Fred Astaire in Funny Face. It falls apart in contract negotiations. Fosse says, in retrospect, the dumbest thing that happened in my life. I really wish he had done that. He works

on some other shows. The Bells Are Ringing, New Girl in Town. I thought he did a musical, or maybe it came later. The musical version of Conquering, Held Conquering Hero. Indeed, yes. Which ran for eight productions only or something. He was working on a Broadway adaptation of Preston Sturgis' movie,

Hail the Conquering Hero. Not the best known Sturgis, though. But yeah, good movie. But I think it was a big hit at its time. And on its face, seems like very good material for a musical. It was kind of a hit. And it is a good, yeah.

Right. I think it's lasted less, but at the time it was kind of a big hit. Right. And then he has a massive seizure, which he blames on a horseback accident, but actually it was because of pills! He didn't have enough! Well, he was taking the pills

while on horseback. That was... Sure. And because the show was so chaotic, I think it, yes, it only ran for like briefly. It was a famous bomb. Yeah. He did also do emergency choreography for How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. Right.

Yeah. He co-directed Sid Caesar in Little Me. He finally starred in Pal Joey on Broadway. And then Sweet Charity comes along. Versus a show. As a Broadway show. Starring Gwen Verdon. Starring Gwen Verdon, who is in a musical called Redhead that he worked on.

And so him and Gwen Verdon are like, look, we're in love. I love drugs. I love you. I love dancing. Why don't we do a Broadway show that you'll star in, right? They'll pay us money and I'll use that money to buy drugs. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom, nom, nom.

I don't know if that's what he... So, apologies to people who... Apologies to everyone. I know, terrible. Okay. They think about doing Chicago because Verdon did want to play Roxy Hart. But that doesn't happen.

They thought about doing a Breakfast at Tiffany's musical. Oh, speaking of. Which weirdly doesn't happen for like 60 years, right? Have they done it? They did. The Emilia Clarke production, I believe, was a musical. Am I wrong about that? Emilia Clarke?

Emilia Clarke did Breakfast at Tiffany's on Broadway, and I think that was the first time they made it a musical. Horrible. Yeah, it did. Yes. It's never really worked, though, apparently. Truman Capote eventually decides that Gwen Verdon is too old to play Holly Golightly, and then probably

sarcastically pointed out, she was actually based on your last wife. I know he doesn't talk like that. I can't do it. He was actually based on your last one. There you go. It's pretty good. Then they think about doing Funny Girl, but Streisand gets that.

They think about doing something called Berlin Stories, which of course will eventually turn into Cabaret, but that never doesn't happen. Not as good of a title, I would say. Berlin Stories! Life is a series of berlin stories he remembered that he'd been told to watch frederico felini's knights of carabira carabira cabiria cabiria there we go i always get it wrong knights of cabiria that's a clean take for you and so he went to

see it at the bleaker street cinema r.i. And he shows it to Gwen Verdon and to some producers. And he's like, this is a musical. I mean, the Fellini movie is so colorful and exciting and crazy. I mean, literally black and white, but yes. Pops. No, yes, yes, yes. Zippy. Yes, yes.

It is not an obvious thing. It's not a thing where I would be like, oh, this is a musical. No, and it is a funny thing that like, Broadway has always... Everyone thinks this movie is too depressing to be a musical, to be clear, right? No, I was just going to say, Broadway's always been inundated with movie adaptations, right?

Because now people go like, you're a fucking bro, Mrs. Delphi over here, Bill Juice over here, it's all the fucking movies. The difference is that like, I think they were trading less on the name brand recognition of films.

And the movies they were choosing to adapt into Broadway musicals were often more odd. There are obviously still examples of this. There are things like The Band's Visit where you're like, who would ever think to make a musical out of that? And it fucking works and it's a big hit, right? Right. And often those things work better than the movies that are beloved and are too iconic. Sometimes it's a bad idea to do Rocky. But this is a particularly odd choice of a movie

to adapt into a Broadway musical. It's not typical? It wasn't good, the Rocky musical. Yeah, okay. You saw it? No. No, but it wasn't a hit. Or whatever, it wasn't a huge hit.

It wasn't a knockout. How many rounds did it stay up for? All right. Okay, sorry. I'm sorry. Keep losing comedy points. It points down for the count uh so bossy's like all right all right all right it would be set in a dance hall wouldn't be about a prostitute right it can be about a a dancer a taxi dancer this was the fucking right because of tiffany's thing i was gonna say it's this era of like writing these

we can't say that she's a sex worker, but we'll kind of imply it. You write a romantic laugh or you do a foreign film and you really get into it. And the American version comes up. You put it on stage. You put it on the big screen. And they're like, she's just a lady with a lot of friends. She bounces around from place to place. Breakfast at Tiffany's has that weird thing where like because that's a movie that I think children watch sure so often you kind of like watch as a child and you're like

what is her deal what is the thing here i remember seeing it as a kid and being like one obviously the mickey rooney thing is completely it's even when you're a kid you're like this is completely insane it's insane it's truly and i remember my mom being like yeah and this was like a comeback for him anyway i know um know. Two, you're just sort of like, okay, she's a lady. But you're mostly bored. And then at the end when she puts the cat in the street, I remember as a kid I was like, I was so compelled by that. Because it's so good when she banishes the cat and then she goes and gets the cat back.

And the fucking song's incredible. The song's great. Right. You love that song. You're a real simp for Moon River. Oh, I fucking love Moon River. I know you do. Moon River's like a top ten jam for me i know um but but yes i think wisely like fossy's like we have

to like give her an actual equivalent uh yeah she needs to have a job that would not be a job that would blend with high society because knights knights of cabiria is explicitly about a prostitute ben who is not given any respect or love in the world. She's sort of a Dangerfield-esque character. Rodney. And let's say sex worker, too. Yes, yes. I'm sorry.

No, it's okay. Correct. Yeah. But yes, it is sort of, he turns it into this more kind of like bubbly, modern woman, you know. But she's a taxi dancer so you know. Which is by the way an incredible incredible job title. And she doesn't dance with you in a taxi it's like she just sort of like functions like a

taxi. You can rent her for a dance. Right. Is the idea. I believe that's where the title comes from. The Tokyo Vice has this kind of similar arrangement where it's like a club where gentlemen just go and you can kind of have time with them

and dance with them. These things are truly about companionship. Yeah, yeah, because the taxi dancing doesn't exist in the United States. It does still exist in other countries. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, you know,

I mean, obviously sometimes perhaps, you know, things go further, deals are made, what have you, but the idea is explicitly like you are a lonely person or you don't want to go back home to your wife too quickly. You go there their deals are made, what have you. But the idea is explicitly like, you are a lonely person,

or you don't want to go back home to your wife too quickly. You go there, you dance with someone, you pay them money, and you pretend like you're a guy who is able to, you know, attract any woman from across the dance floor. Yeah. So they work on Sweet Charity with this concept. Obviously, he is drawing from his own life.

Sure. In this sort of under belly of dance the dance world you know for this he hired elaine may oh to i guess pair with the show i think the idea would be like and the initial idea was that like the first act of the show was going to be sweet charity and the second act would be something else so it'd be like and now we're done and now elaine may is here to do some comedy odd uh and then she was like i don't know whatever she hadn't made much progress on whatever he'd hired her to do and he was like you know what sweet charity can be two act show it can be a full broadway show sure i don't know the 60s are weird yeah uh he finally gets

neil simon aboard neil simon works on the show um that name sounds familiar yeah you've heard of that guy yeah he's done stuff a lot he's done a lot of stuff big broadway guy if we ever do mike nichols we're gonna have to talk a lot about neil simon herbert r lot about Neil Simon. Yeah. Sure, let's do Herbert Ross. That'd be great. What if we do Neil Simon on Patreon? As a franchise. We treat it as a franchise.

Just any adaptation of a Neil Simon thing? Yeah, just a quick three years. Yeah, that would take forever. What if we just do The Sweets? The Suite Life of Griffin David? Yeah, exactly. That's what we call the series.

Fosse is credited as the writer initially under a pseudonym called bart lewis but eventually he gives credit sole credit to simon okay protect himself if the musical failed he didn't want to be seen as overreaching creatively gotcha okay but you know he didn't want it to be like bob fossy presents a bob fossy show everything is good and shortly before the musical premiered, Fosse called up Simon and said the ending was not dark enough. And Neil Simon was like, that's pretty funny because the ending's pretty dark.

Yeah, I believe the... For a Broadway show. The Knights of Cabiria ends with her getting pushed over the bridge again. Right. Right? Like, Knights of Cabiria,

it's full loop. It's just like, you're just stuck in a fucking, like... It's like inside Llewyn Davis. You're just repeating the same cycle over and's like inside lewin davis you're just repeating the same cycle over and over again yes it does night security it does have a similar ending to this and that she except in this she doesn't get pushed over the bridge but she gets pushed over the bridge she's walking back to town sadly and then she runs into a bunch of young

people who are dancing and they kind of like start doing a parade around her which happens in every movie people are always like just doing a parade around her, which happens in every Polini movie. People are always like just doing a parade around you. There's like clowns blowing trumpets and there's a little tear that goes down her face. And it's sort of like, yeah, it's sort of a, you know,

weird, bittersweet, melancholy ending. And you end and you go to, you know, a French bistro and you were smoking cigarettes and you debate it. I assume that's how it was seeing Polini movies, right?

The other thing is, right. Knights of Cabiria is like one of Polini movies, right? I mean, the other thing is, right, Knights of Kiberia is, like, one of Fellini's ultimate love letters. Should we do Fellini? Maybe. I have an idea for next year's bracket. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it in six months. But, you know, Fellini,

famous wife guy. No, but that movie is, like, that and Lestrade are sort of the two ultimate, sort of, like ultimate sort of like love letters to his wife as a movie star. Right? There's something fascinating about Bob Fosse also now Gwen Verdon becoming like

the greatest muse of his career. I'd say overall. And like similarly using this basic text to do the same thing for her. And when you read about the production, like her performance is the thing that everyone fucking talks about.

This is the whole thing with Bob Fosse, and it's, of course, I think, why that show did well to be called Fosse-Verdon. It was about the two of them. I think if you only engage with Bob Fosse movies, you are like, God, this guy was a singular genius. Yes. Right. And then once you realize more about him, you're like,

oh, God, they were a pair, and she was so crucial to singular genius. Yes. Right. And then, like, once you realize more about him, you're like, oh, God, like, they were a pair, and she was so crucial to everything he was doing. Right. Like, you know. But, yes. Yeah. No, everyone said she was incredible. She said making, you know, doing the show

was absolutely exhausting, because, you know, it's a very high-energy character, and you're on stage constantly. Yeah. So, it was hard, and she was getting old. Yeah. By Broadway star standard. you're on stage constantly yeah yeah so it was hard and she was getting old yeah by broadway star standard um and so the thing is in the 60s there's two films in 64 and 65 that are such hits

that the musical kind of gets cool again it had been on the downswing but mary poppins and the sound of music are such smash hits that uh universal picture sweeps in and is like sweet charity will buy the rights. Half a million dollars, you're going to make a move. But then you have the run of, as you said, like, Hello Dolly, this, Dr. Dolittle. There's this run of colossal, over-budgeted...

They're kind of collapsing under their own weight. Not this so much. Dr. Dolittle and Hello Dolly are good examples, for sure. Because this is a little leaner. And it's well-directed. And it's interesting. Whereas Hello Dolly are good examples for sure. Because this is a little leaner. And it's well directed and it's like, you know, interesting.

Whereas Hello Dolly is very staid. But also this movie was like a fucking two and a half hour road show that people were like, what's the narrative thread of this thing?

Well, that's right. That's the issue of this movie. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's tiring. Yes, it is. I had to watch it, I'll say,

in three installments. There's literally an intermission. Yeah. There is an intermission. I mean to watch it, I'll say, in three installments. There's literally intermission. There is intermission. I mean, that's when I was like, okay, I'm going to break. Yeah. It was great, but I had to pace myself. Yes. I breezed through it.

There is this weird Julie Andrews created musical boon that doesn't really translate outside of Julie Andrews. Right, right. It's true. And these two very specific family musicals that are kind of like unreplicatable. Yes, I think that's true because the movie musical, well, I mean, it's Bob Fosse who makes it cool again, in fact, in the 70s. But we'll get to that. You know, this was a stat I read last night.

All That Jazz was the last musical nominated for best picture until beauty and the beast and then there wasn't another one until mulan roof so if you we should be doing that so if we everyone thought we were doing everyone predicted we were doing we should do it we'll do it and we'll be legends but uh it is it is fascinating that like cabaret winning best picture doesn't start uh yeah like let's do more of these things like how the fuck do we follow this and it's like he does another one it's a tough act and then no one fucking knows what to do with musicals until boz lerman really like that's that moulin rouge is the first moment people are like, oh

there's maybe like a new energy here and then Chicago is so indebted to Fosse the following year winning Best Picture. Well, you know what some of the other big musicals of the 70s are now that I'm looking? Obviously, there's Fiddler on the Roof, which is a similarly, that's more in the old, that's 71 and that's more like Hello Dolly or whatever. It's very long, very

highly produced. The highest grossing movie of its year. But it's a big hit. There's the Rocky Horror Picture Show, right? So that's the other direction, which is happening more in the 70s. You've also got Grease. You've also got Hair. The Wiz. You've got The Wiz, where it's like rock-ish musicals. Kind of cultural.

New musicals. Youth-driven. Superstar. That's showing up. Shirley MacLaine. She's attached to star in Sweet Charity She had actually been a chorus girl On the Pajama Game And Alfred Hitchcock had noticed her When she was promoted as an understudy

To a role Alfred Hitchcock saw her And she says that being in Pajama Game Changed her life So she demanded that Fosse direct the film He wasn life okay so she demanded the fossey direct the film he wasn't sure he wasn't like i'm definitely gonna do this but the main reason this film is happening is because she wants to do it i guess but it's also just the universal is like musicals right what do we got here's a new one uh and she's a big star yeah this opens on broadway like two years before the movie comes out it's like a pretty quick turnaround right three years yeah 66 to 69 yeah and uh yeah i mean where's shirley mclean at this point it's just a big ass fucking

star yeah i mean such a babe one of the least surprising david crushes not surprised at all you guys don't like shirley mclean well yeah of course look at her look at her it is fun don't you wanna the fact hang out her and warren baity are siblings is a thing i can never keep in my head it just doesn't compute in a weird way they're both hotties they're both hotties and they almost have put that into the computer what does this say folks i wish i could tell you what david's doing it's like the you could see the paper coming out of the printer. She ripped it. Wait, what did it say? They almost have the same face. It says they're both hotties.

Oh, okay. Maybe it's just the main thing. Maybe it's also just like it just feels impossible that both of them could be have such legendary careers entirely separate from each other. Separate from each other. You know, I mean, she'd done Woman Time 7 a couple years ago,

which is kind of like an insane Vittorio De Sica movie where she plays seven women. She did Gambit. I feel like it's been a while since she's had like a huge hit. Gambit I love. Gambit's fun. She did Irma LaDuce. That's sort of like, that's like 63.

Yeah. So I do feel like, I guess it's just been a minute. But that's fine. We support Shirley MacLaine. And you know, she's sort of in the rat pack. You know? She was.

So like. She's cool. She could roll with the rats. Right. Yeah. They bring in Ross Hunter to produce it. He had just produced the Thoroughly Modern Millie movie.

I always get Thoroughly Modern Millie and Sweet Charity confused. They're both about gals with short hair gone. You know, like, so. Yes. I.A.L. Diamond, of course, a classic Billy Wilder guy, comes in to write the screenplay. He

writes a gritty screenplay that is more Knights of Cabiria. And Hunter, the producer, is like, no, no, no, we want a G-rated hit here. We don't want this. Yeah. There was quite a fight, Ben,

about whether charity could say up yours. Well, I'm glad that that fight ended the way that it did. Bob Fosse says, I felt if she couldn't, then we might as well make Mary Poppins all the way. Wow. So Hunter, the producer, leaves the movie saying movie saying fine if you're gonna make smut smut i won't be involved up your sir now john mcmartin i think is so much fun as oscar in this movie he was he played the role on

broadway i'm just gonna tell you a person that was considered for the job do you know this no i mean there's other names the names that you might hear at this time. Alan Arkin, Robert Redford, Anthony Perkins. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Alan Alda. Imagine him in that elevator goofing around.

That's the thing. You think about the elevator. Talk about some elevator antics. Oh, seriously. You put Arkin in there? Do you think that was George Lucas' reput Charity when he did Elevator Rant? This is my homage to the fact that they have a freakout in an elevator

and the intermission happens in the middle of the freakout. This is the funniest intermission. What does that even mean? What the fuck am I saying? I know what you mean. The intermission feels like a button to a joke.

My wife was like, wait, is the movie over? And I was like, no, no, no. No. And then I was thinking, that would be crazy, though. That was the end of the movie. It's just weird to have an intermission that's also positioning itself like it's a cliffhanger to, like,

a Lone Ranger serial or some shit. Will they escape the elevator? Right. Will he have another panic attack? Right. And then they, like, you know, when they come back, they're like, finally, the epic conclusion to the elevator antics. And you're, like, in the middle of a musical where they're just stuck in a box. I just think Alan Alda would be cute.

No, look, that's the scene to talk about. What's his name again? I'm sorry, the actor. John McMartin. I was trying to figure out where, why he looks so familiar to me. And the answer is he has a pair of incredibly good guest starring episodes on both Cheers and Mary Tyler Moore. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

He's a visiting lecturer in Cheers, and that's season seven. And he was in, let's see, Mary Tyler Moore. He plays a lawyer that... The episode's called Mary Gets a Lawyer. Mary doesn't want to give up her source. Ah. She's being sued, and Lou Grant gets her a lawyer,

and the lawyer falls in love with Mary, and she tries her best to reject him, and he's so dejected, he shows up to court, like, dead drunk, and they have to sort of, like, puppeteer him. He's good at playing the Shlemiel, yeah.

Yeah, but I was just like, you know, I've watched both of those shows in their entirety. There are a lot of episodes. Yeah, where it's like... They jumped out to me where I was just like, these are fucking really interesting performances.

The episode's built around them. Anyway. Good for him. Yeah. Did he win a Tony? I want to look this up now. He must have, right? I don't know.

He must have, David. I'm not sure. Tony Award. When did it go from the Anthony Awards to the Tonys? Great question. Terrible question. One of the worst questions ever asked. Tonys? Great question. Terrible question. One of the worst questions ever asked. That's a great question.

He was nominated for five Tonys and never won. Wow. And including for Into the Woods in 2002, played the narrator. Oh, wow. So I would have seen him in that. That was the Vanessa Williams production? Yeah. And he was nominated for a Tony for that and for High Society for Showboat, which I saw Showboat. Hey. That was the Vanessa Williams production? Yeah. And he was nominated for Tony for that and for

High Society for Showboat, which I saw Showboat. That was my first Broadway show. 1995's Showboat revival. Old Man River. Remember that? Man, we should fucking revive Showboat with David. Wow. If they revive Showboat with me

in the role of the guy who sings Old Man River, which is not the care i can't remember the character's name right now i think that people might not like that people might be mad people might not i think people might not like that at all i feel like that's also a load that we have somehow avoid up until this moment which is podcasters leading broadway revivals i just remember like we were going to go see showboat my parents like got i guess a soundtrack album yeah for me to listen to yeah to prep they were like okay so like here especially because showboat has no plot i feel like my parents would do the same thing right like

sing the song for me and be like get ready for this song gary indiana good song great song um and i got really obsessed with Old Man River. Because it does... I could tell from the performance you gave. Clearly, you reached down somewhere deep to pull that out of you. If I sang any more of Old Man River, I would truly get canceled. I am not going to do that. I've invoked it too many times But the 2003

Opening Oscars Billy Crystal song Where from Mystic River he does Old man Eastwood You sang in Paint Your Wagon Don't sing anymore That was one of the jokes I remember that

Yes it does Seabiscuit's Coldfinger Sounds good Sweet Charity Okay Yeah Okay Cheetah Rivera gets cast Over Rita Moreno

And Mitzi Gaynor Mm-hmm Nichelle Nichols Is up for the role Of Helene Which eventually goes to Paula Kelly I almost thought it was

Nichelle Nichols She has a very Very similar look The highest budgeted Universal film Since Spartacus which will also be discussed on this podcast this year uh yeah crazy uh did jj was he able to track down a consistent number because i the reporting seems to be all over the fucking place of how much this movie cost

the the yeah the i'm not having don't see a full number from him okay but 20 million is a number i've seen which is crazy the 8 to 20 range seems to be thrown out. And the movie ended up at like three. Shirley MacLaine alone got paid one. And they were like, the whole roadshow engagement, I think, made $1 million in total. And then they like squeezed an additional like million and a half cutting it down. There's like a shorter cut of this movie. How did you watch it?

I have the Blu-ray. I have the blu-ray i think i have the blu-ray what did you what did i use like broadway yeah you can only watch it streamable on broadway hd which is like a subscription service yeah which look i will say to our listeners check it out yeah broadway hd first of all like free seven-day trial sure if you want to support a bad company amazon you can get a seven-day trial but also with a cheaper monthly price right actually a lot of good shit but even you know if you're not interested for the long term they do have uh this movie it's the only place that's dreamable rentable they have liza with a z which we plan on covering on patreon is a very important concert film and they also have the uh filmed production uh of Fosse's Pippin.

Cool. So it's like those look, if you want to sign up for Broadway HD for all week and cancel your membership and watch those three things, three important pieces for this miniseries. But my guess is it also has a lot of other cool shit, right? It's got a lot of cool ass shit. You saw what? The Wiz. Yeah. Maybe I'll

sign up. Yeah, I signed up and I Okay. Okay. I was like I think I'm gonna fucking keep this I should watch more musicals that's what I'm thinking maybe just throw in a musical just watch some people I like musicals I feel like I'm learning that though with this you long resisted them

I think for some reason you thought of them as homework no I just cause I also you thought I'm a goofy yeah I think they're goofy i think there's something about the uh god he was sincerity you know what i mean yeah yes like i think i just give in i was too i was too ironic i know i was too removed from everything man god i was looking at some fucking i mean like i again, foreshadowing, but when it came out, Stanley Kubrick said that All That Jazz was maybe the best movie he had ever seen. And I saw some fucking dude on, like, the r slash movies Reddit or whatever being like, hmm, I'm very conflicted because I think Stanley Kubrick is the most brilliant filmmaker of all time.

I trust his opinions, but I hate musicals so much. How could he think a musical was that good? It is fascinating how some people are just like, I refuse to accept people breaking into song. It will never make sense to me. It's true. Some people are like that. But you know what?

They're stupid. Musicals rule. Yeah, they do rule. I miss going to Broadway shows. I went to one recently and had a great time. I saw The Music Man. I sure did see The Music Man. How many trombones did they have in that production? 76 beautiful trombones.

Wow. 76 trombones. Did you count them? No. I took Hugh's word for it. Maybe he was scamming me. The flip-flam artist. I took Hugh's word for it.

Maybe he was scamming me. He's a slam artist. You know, the opening number of Music Man, which is incredible and is done very well, is set on a train car, and it's all the salesman being like, he doesn't know the territory, right? They're talking about him. And you can see him. Yeah.

You know, the trick is that Hugh's sitting there. Sure. And he's going to stand up at a certain point. Yes. And I can, you know, I mean, I see him. I'm like, okay, there's Hugh. Yeah. All right, all right, all right. They a certain point. I see him. I'm like, okay, there's you. They do five minutes. I see those biceps.

Then he stands up and everyone flips out. There's something about Broadway shows like that. You couldn't do that in any other medium. Just the applause break for someone being like, it's me. You knew it was. You know what they should do they should be like music man new revival music man and you walk in you sit down you're so fucking empty brought the whole family

curtain goes up long day's journey and tonight harold hill got you again you see him escaping the suitcase full of money and the money's like flapping in the breeze. Hugh Jackman's performance is just running out of the theater. That would be good. That would be good. Okay. Robert Surtees shot this movie.

A great cinematographer. He shot like The Graduate and The Bad and the Beautiful and a lot of great movies. And apparently Fosse looks incredible. This movie looks fucking incredible.

This movie has a lot of color in it is a thing I noticed. I put this movie on my cinematography ballot for 1969, and I had to really think about it. Okay, give me the others. I had to cut some. I can't even remember who I bumped now.

My nominees are Raul Coutard's work for Zed. Nestor Almendros for My Night at Maud's. I mean... I've never seen My Night at Maud's, but Almendros the goat. David. David's looking at me like i just i mean one it's a great movie and you should see it shit on him no no no it's just it's

real griffin canon really it's about a guy who's just like i don't think i want to have sex and the lady's like come on spend a night with me and he's just in bed being like i don't know i got a lot of feelings about this we're the guy and the gal jean-louis trenton pantinil yeah and uh who's the gal uh geez what's her name very embarrassing of me not to know her name which is of course francoise fabienne oh it's a great movie you know all of romero's movies i know the moral tales you know someone's being like let's fuck and yeah the other person's like oh it seems immoral yeah um that's not what they're all like haskell wexler for medium cool well robert certes for sweet cherry and laszlo kovacs for easy rider it's just like a lot of like

exciting new visuals this thing does yeah just look fucking unbelievable but what i was trying to say about certes is that bobby apparently was just asking robert certes so many questions because he's never done this before sure Sure. You know, so he's just like, what is this? How does this work? You know, like, so he's very into as he puts it, I'm just a schmuck dancer. I don't know anything about the camera, but he wants to know everything

about the camera. Like, he's not just here to be like, well, I'll handle the musical side of things. He's like, no, I want to know. And he's not just interested in photographing dance. He's like, no, I want to know. He's not just interested in photographing dance. He's like really interested in the unique opportunities that film provides as a medium. Uh, which it's just so crucial to why he is successful as a filmmaker.

Yes. Beyond his success as a choreographer. Yes. Uh, yeah, no. And this is a movie that is just, uh, so in love with the possibilities of film

construction 100 he was very inspired by john houston's moulin rouge a film i've never seen i haven't either uh which he thought found new ways to shoot dancing okay because of course as you sort of mentioned fred astaire greg you know greg kelly yes greg kelly fox news host no no uh greg kelly you know they you know full full full body you know full figure shot of a guy dancing right right willan rouge she says that's the first time i'm seeing a leg or the flash of a face or something like you know it's more exciting yes maybe this eventually gets taken down a job to ribbon. But it's new at the time. And there's such a specific intentionality to Fosse and all. So once again, it's the rhythm thing.

It's that he's constructing a very specific rhythm. I mean, it's what you quoted Nelly as saying, but the focus on like one body part as a time. He understands that close-ups, that insert shots, that creating offbeat staccato, editing rhythms around those can accentuate things and make that feel like its own form of movement rather than obscuring a movement,

which I think a lot of coverage does when you're like, it's three similar angles that are just sort of cut on the beat interchangeably. In general, though, he sounds like the kind of guy we cover on this podcast in that he's meticulous he pays too much attention to everything he everything has to be exactly right he missed nothing says shirley mclean is the result he saw too much uh being the repository of all he saw rendered him indecisive so his movies cost more money probably because he takes you know he does

more takes he takes longer to do everything look if this movie has a fundamental issue it is that he is trying out so many different techniques and ideas on top of what is a very simple story right and it starts to feel like it's it's a very maximalist film it is i mean perhaps a narrative that cannot support that there's no right there's no strong narrative really right and of course famously gwen verdon is there and you know people say musta hurt she's not playing this role right shirley got the part but you wouldn't know with her she was stoic she was sort of uncredited all the dancing absolutely yeah and and also was just like look i'm not a movie star shillelagh mclean is this expensive movie i understand how this works yes uh cheetah rivera says the fact that she was there

at all blew me away but gwen you know did it for bobby did it for jack cole i felt no resentment coming from her she did her job you know and of course the craziest thing about this is the ending yes fossi shoots two he assumes, I understand the game I'm playing here. They're never gonna fucking let me have the ending where she finds quiet contentment.

So, right. Being alone. And they shoot the fucking happy ending and the studio goes like, this sucks. Right. They shoot an ending

that's basically the ending you see. She jumps in the, or she gets pushed in. I think she jumps into the river. She does. And then,

once again, remember she can't swim. And then he shows up and he's like, I'm sorry. I was crazy. I love you. I save you. Right. It doesn't make any sense, especially since that already happened.

Like it's sort of a repetition of a thing that already happened. It's just funny because that was always the like. It sounds like the thing the studio would force and the director would lose their shit over. And the director preemptively was like, they're going to want this fucking bullshit. And he showed them, they were like, this eats ass. This is bad. Why don't you do that fucking sad ending?

Everyone loved on Broadway. One reason. So did you watch the other ending? Because I've never seen this sad ending. Yeah, it's bad. It's bad. It's bad. It's just like, it's passionate.

You could tell everyone's just like, this sucks, right? Right. It's like the It's bad. It's just like, it's passionately could tell everyone's just like, this sucks, right? Right. It's like the Blade Runner ending where Harrison Ford's voiceover is like, and then they lived happily ever after,

I guess. It truly was a Blade Runner. Universal is slightly inspired by the fact that they had just put out Funny Girl and Finian's Rainbow and those also both have bittersweet

endings. Sure. So I think they're thinking like we can get away with this. And I don't think the ending of this movie is what hurts it. Like, it's not like the movie had, you know, it had other issues. This movie is both dramatically and comedically effective in large stretches.

But there's just, like, it's like one of those, like, novelty desserts. Yeah. Like a serendipity three ice creamendipity it is not an s-tier broadway show it's got some great songs it's got like i you know this movie has an incredible shirley mcclain performance but you're not like yeah like oh narrative and dance and sing song writing and are blending into this perfect thing about like the novelty dessert thing the fucking like 60 frozen hot chocolate where you're like, I can't eat this.

This looks incredible. Every separate element you put on here is delicious. How do I approach this as a food? If I just want to eat the ice cream, it's hard to get to the ice cream underneath. And it's like, the ice cream of this show probably works best in a cone.

And then he put everything else on top of it, which maybe would work for a Pippin adaptation, you know? Pippin's so silly. Yes. You can, you can throw the bombast on top of it, but this is in essence like a character study.

And it's a, a story of vignettes of passing moments, you know? I think people thought the bittersweet ending would work but i i think by the time people got to that ending they were like what is this they've lost it long before the ending and the most critical reviews of this film maybe not the most critical reviews but if you read a lot of the critical ones they're like verdon figured out how to make this character specific and compelling enough and there was an energy that carried you

along and shirley mclean is doing shirley mclean movie star stuff and she's not bad in it but you don't feel like i'm so compelled by what's going on i like her i do too i think she's a cutie pie it could get lost in the show a little bit I do like this movie a lot That's what Vincent Camby thought Yes That she could not recapture Miss Verdon's eccentric line Sure Eccentric line's a great line

Yes Calls McClane a dull shapeless dancer and an ordinary singer That's a little much Yeah This is the thing with Camby though Like he often at a certain point is just like Why are there missiles falling? Like he starts out being like

You know there's some problems with this movie by the end you're like you just insulted her family like he could get kind of insane yeah um but yeah it says the movie too long too noisy dim imitation of its source material this is kind of the reaction right um and the roadshow version the 157 minute roadshow version with the overture, the intermission, exit music, and all that goes over really badly. And so, as you say, they try to sort of like get a compressed version that can work. I think this was a moment that's almost a little similar to where, I mean, what happened with 3D movies and what happens with IMAX now. Where it was like the roadshow was like a very specific reserved occasions movies that could live up to that hype it was you know like a lot of fucking fanfare around it you got a program

you were expected to dress up nicely it was in great old theater like movie palaces and shit right right the film's longer you get a proper intermission whatever and it was like almost every film they had put in that format lived up to that format and then there was sort of the imax thing where it's like what if we start taking movies that weren't shot in imax and just blowing them up and saying this deserves to be an imax movie and this is when the road show is starting to collapse as well at the same time the musical started to collapse people are like i don't need to pay extra for this i can fucking wait and see this in six months with 20 minutes trimmed out of it.

And I can wear a t-shirt or whatever. Sweet charity. Sweet charity. It made, according to this, it finally scraped $8 million. Okay. But it was a bum. It was a bum. Do you guys want to talk about some of your favorite moments in the film?

I like when they sing, Hey, Big Spender. That was one of the standout songs where i was like hey that spender i knew that song like that's like a part of our culture yeah it's like a huge song this is a movie where we can actually go through the plot because it is just a series of musical numbers and like different men yep right much she's charity she's a taxi dancer yeah she's only got 427 and she loses it in the first moment of's charity. She's a taxi dancer. Yeah. She's only got $427, and she loses it in the first moment of the movie. Her boyfriend's a fucking jerk.

Yeah, he's no good. I want to say this guy sucks. He sucks. Do we want to rank the boys in terms of badness? Yeah. Because he's bottom. He's Charlie. He's the worst one.

Charlie. Charlie. Yes. Yeah. Tattoo's pretty cool, though. Her tattoo. Yeah. And then I guess,

is Sammy Davis Jr., he doesn't romance romance her but does he count as a boy because if so he's number one yeah if we're saying like sweet charity boys like who are the guys uh because otherwise you've got you know obviously ricardo montalban really it's very charming he kind of he kind of blows it at the end there but uh he blows it but there's something i i don't know that's like a real fucking Griffin night you want to talk about some real Griffin shit It's like so do you hook up No I just stayed in the closet while they had sex with someone else

But then afterwards they were nice to me And then you got John McMartin as Arthur Sorry he's Oscar sorry That's it those are really the boys Yeah Who's your favorite boy? I guess they're all bad. That's why I'm pro Sammy Davis Jr.

Just bring him in. The other guy, obviously, is her boss. Herman? Stubby K? And what a name. You were trying to get his name? I could have just told you. Who obviously played Nicely Nicely. He originated Nicely Nicely

which is the guy who sings Sit Down You Rock in the Boat which is one of the greatest what's this guy doing in your musical stands up, kills one fucking number at the end sits back down he's a human cigar and his name was Stubby K

which was actually not his his birth name oh his name was Stubbard K His name was Bernard Cotson Wow Would you believe this man was The son of Jewish immigrants

Into New York City And he was raised in the Rockaways Wow and yeah Stubby K Sit down you're rocking the boat I just think we're missing guys like this for movies today. Well, it's now it's like, who is it? It's like Josh Gad. It's like these people that Disney like picks up is like, you're the funny guy.

You come in. You pop. And it's like, yeah. Well, the other problem is, and I mean no disrespect when I say this. These days, you're maybe hiring a Colin Farrell to play a Stubby K. Well, that can happen. Well, I'm not sure if they're hiring a Colin Farrell to play a stubby kid. Well, that can happen. Well, I'm not sure if they're hiring a Colin Farrell. Who are you thinking of?

What's a movie you're thinking of? With like a funny sidekick role. Let me think about that. Let me think about that. I mean, like, I guess Leto in House of Gucci should have been played by a stubby kid. Would have been fun. I'm a pigeon. Yeah.

And my sword had to fly. Sword like a pigeon. I think people want hunks to show that they can play a stubby. Hmm. Yeah. Oh, you're thinking

of the pengar. Of course. Well, and also, I mean, it's a different performance, but horrible bosses. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know,

I think with Colin Farrell specifically. I think both of those are good performances. Yeah, the thing with Colin Farrell is it more seemed like he was like, can you put some shit

on my face? I'm sick of people thinking I'm hot. So fucking hot. Right. Like it wasn't like, I'm going to prove to you, you know,

I'm not going to declaim. It was more just like, hide me. Yes. Yes. Right. Right. It feels,

when Colin Farrell does it, it feels more like Edward Cullen being like, this is the skin of a monster I don't want to be seen anymore Jared Leto's like What if I look like this Um, anyway So

Yeah, she's a dancer Her boyfriend pushes her off a bridge in Central Park And steals her money Oh good, very bad, don't do it One of the worst dates I've ever witnessed and then we go right into hey big spender which is done all's like slow and drawn out this is when i just feel like you're not seeing musical numbers with this kind of energy the amount of like fucking restraint in how long he takes to wind that thing up the teasing there's nothing finer than a trumpet sounding like wow there's just nothing better

it's so good i don't disagree but i don't know why that was funny funniest things ben has ever done it's not even an it's an obvious point and yet there was just something about how he put it he did the trombone it was a plunger they put a plunger at the end of it they sometimes do the thing where he like blew on his thumb and pretended the hand was. One hand was gripping. Yeah. And the other one was. I mean, I guess it is also funny that this instrument that we can use to like play sort of somber stuff at like a military funeral.

Right. Or like, and you know, this amazing jazz music. Like it is funny. It's just immediately immediately it's just like and it means that's what it means it means like uh-oh like who is that guy who is like guys i i figured out if you put a thing in it it does this noise you know that thing i used to unclog shit and all the other trumpet players are like what what if i put that on top of the thing i blow into you can't you can't do that the trumpet is a noble answer like

and then like guys are like get this guy this guy's good pay him money is there an argument is there an argument i want to ask this is a serious question this is a serious question. This is a serious question. I want this to provoke spirited debate. Okay. Sure. Is there an argument for the trumpet being the funniest instrument? Now, I know we're all riding high in the endorphins of, we've all been laughing, this trumpet run's been really fun, right?

Yeah, but obviously we can't ignore the tuba. The tuba is kind of like, yeah. Because tuba's kind of the big chunk of Trump. Yeah, and it's just, I mean, just a very comical thing. It also looks so funny. It's funny that you have to wear it. It's funny that you have to wear it. You operated a tuba, right?

I sure did. My band teacher took one look at me and said, tuba. He has a real tuba kid. You got a tuba vibe. Your band teacher would just throw the tuba at kids And anyone who could actually hold, like support it It was like, alright, that's your instrument, buddy I just think like hacky people

Will go to like triangle Xylophone Sure Like these fucking simplistic sort of childlike Instruments Or like that's the funny thing, right? Yeah, but the trumpet's actually sort of the secret powerhouse. Especially because it is

taken seriously. Yeah. And it takes skill. But it looks so fucking funny. And it makes robust fart sounds. It does. It can do, that's what I'm saying, it can play taps but it can do farts as well

big spender i feel like is the only number maybe if my friends could see me now but like i feel like big spender is the only number in sweet charity that people are guaranteed to know today right it's a song absolutely right like that's that's the and it's so it's like right at the start it doesn't really have anything to do with the plot except just this is where we want you to spend money on us we are we're the girls right walker the one who does the the single version of it i mean that's what's known is that i think surely bassy is who you mean of course right yes surely walker's the fucking batman the animated series. Is that right? Yeah. Memoirs of visible man. Surely bright.

Am I wrong? You are correct about both Shirley Walker and guess Shirley Bassey. Okay. You know, should Bassey, you know, he loves gold. You know,

she's the, the bond bond singer. Who is she talking about? Who loves gold? Gold finger. Um, no, but only gold.

It is still just funny that that song is called gold finger. And she's like, he loves gold. Only gold It is still just funny that that song is called Goldfinger And she's like he loves gold Only gold He loves gold Only gold He loves gold That's like the last minute of the song It's just her saying that

And you're like I get it She's like gold And you're like okay Anyway This song becomes like a crossover Like pop hit I get it. She's like, go! And you're like, okay, okay. Anyway. Shirley Bassey, she's the best. This song becomes like a crossover pop hit. Yes. So it's legacy, I think, like, when Ben's watching this movie and it comes on.

It's like a two-minute song. It's not like a long song. Your reaction is like, holy shit. Hey, Big Spenders from this? That's what this song is? Yep, definitely. It's not even like, I think most people wouldn't associate with it even though probably everyone knows this song right um true other people who covered it chaka khan apparently bet midler peggy lee okay jennifer love hewitt in a promo for her tv series

the client list that was one of those sort of like oh behind the scenes of escorts or whatever right anyway um nbc is ready to show you a shoulder on primetime television i think it was lifetime actually oh really um and two shoulders um you know i think it's just kind of a funny song it's a very funny right like isn't like it's a song you can do on snl yes sort of because of the noise and i don't know, because of the word big, maybe. Yeah, but it's also, there's something very, it's a song that's really kind of like giving you a come hither finger. Yeah, it's the idea. Yeah, but it feels that way musically as well.

You know, like there's something about it. I also think it's one of those songs where the lyrics are so clean and clear and directly verbalized. Sure. That you like know all the words to the song before you finish listening to it the first time. I know. I just loaded up Rich Man's Frog. You're right. You know, even if you've never heard it before, basically.

The next big number is Rich Man's Frog. Which, did you have the exact same realization I did? Go ahead. even if you've never heard it before, basically. The next big number is Rich Man's Frog. Which, did you have the exact same realization I did? Go ahead. Every single move in this number is repurposed somewhere in the Austin Powers trilogy. This feels like this was one of the single biggest influences on Mike Myers. The three main guys are all wearing

the fucking Austin Powers outfit, and every fucking move, as a kid who watched those movies too much, I'm like, they literally repurpose every single which makes sense yes but can i just say is a broader thing i just love the idea of like a bunch of people doing a dance about how rich and fancy they are and this is what it is yes yeah when it's like oh this is of course this is what rich people do they're all like right it's not a ballroom dance it's right, oh, this is, of course, this is what rich people do. They're all like. Right. It's not a ballroom dance. Right. Right.

Yes. They're all doing like weird interpretive dance. The camera's going like. Like this is what you want the Skull and Bones Club to be. Yeah. Absolutely. Everyone looks like, yes, Peter Fonda dressed as Austin Powers, basically. Right.

Like every, right. Is that, you know. Right. I love her, the giant menu. The menu that's like weirdly big. Yeah. Love it. That menu that's like weirdly big. That's sort of like Gallagher-esque prop comedy. Do you think Gallagher was ripping off this movie?

Yeah, absolutely. Remember when Ben said the trumpet thing? Do you remember that feeling when something like that happens in an episode and you're like, at least we got that. This has been absolute shit, but at least Ben said that. At least we got that. That episode's earned its keep.

You know, like, the dance move that's like, you kind of freeze like an Egyptian painting, and then you kind of like slide? Yes. I like it when they do that. Yeah, I feel like, look, there's a lot of musicals, especially 60s and 70s. I mean, American Imperius has this as well,

the scene in the rain where it's like, you do the extended, like, 10 10 minute just dance sequence, right? Plotless. Right. Not even really singing. Right. No main characters are involved, really. You know, it's just a bunch of dancers.

Right. Either it's like a dream sequence. So it's removed from the plot. It's a ballet or something. Or no main characters are involved and the main characters are watching it happen or whatever it is. I feel like most of them save this for like the third act. Right. It's kind of wild that this happens in the first 30 minutes.

But the dancing evokes stuff. Do you know what I mean, guys? Because like I'm like I poo-pooed this as a young man, a kid, couldn't pay attention. Yeah. And I'm like they're saying stuff with their body. It's so cool. They sure are. They're communicating. i'm trying to even

think how i would describe this dance it's almost like a rich man's frog i'm re-watching it i'm just having so fucking a great time yeah oh man imagine like being one of the rich people though and then fucking up your dance move and everyone's mad at you let's not be worried about everyone's like doing this and you're like doing this and like sims what's the other reason why like i mean and this is a sequence where he he lets it play out in long takes right definitely uh because he does want to just showcase the choreography and the choreography so spectacular and it's so visually and then like he does sort of a he does a hair thing where like the the color goes negative way it's about that right you know that's, that kind of stuff. You know what's another thing he does

that's kind of incredible? Because even like classical or golden age movie musicals, we use camera movements a lot as a part of their choreography, right? You put the camera on a track and you have these kind of crazy... Absolutely.

Right. Or you dolly around or whatever. I feel like he is able to make whip zooms feel like choreography. There were like rhythmic zooms in this movie. Yeah. Uh, the zooms are really important and they're really, they're really cool.

And the zooms in and out sometimes. Right. Right. And freeze freezing, like, you know, like an image and then moving it around. Sometimes the people will freeze

yeah right there's that sequence the uh it's after she gets out of the park when she's walking to her job that is just the series of like the freeze frames it'll freeze frame and then the audio is moving and stuff like it's very cool he's just throwing every fucking technique at the board like he's just what can i I do? Um, but yes. She meets Vittorio Vitale, played by a younger Ricardo Montalban. He's not exactly young,

but he's in his late 40s, I think. Right. You know, we're... Killing it. Killing it. We're just, you know, it's the peak of Hollywood

saying anyone who isn't Anglo-Saxon is allowed to play anyone else. Yes, correct. Correct. Right? Yes. You're Jewishish you play a

mexican you're mexican you play an italian man um you're spanish you play a jew like everyone's the same if you aren't an anglo-saxon with a transatlantic accent yes uh he sort of plays marcello mascherini type right he's just broken up with his girlfriend he's a big fancy movie star and he takes her to this club takes her to his apartment who do you believe a guy like that Marcello Mastroianni type. He's just broken up with his girlfriend. He's a big fancy movie star. And he takes her to this club. Takes her to his apartment. Who do you believe? A guy like that.

Pay attention to a girl like her. And so she does a big song about how she can't believe she's in this apartment. And it's called If They Could See Me Now. And she's dancing around. Dances with the coat hanger. Yep. The painting. She dances by a big painting.

She's got the hat, obviously. His hat. She does a lot of hat stuff. The cane. Yeah, the hat. painting. She's got the hat, obviously. His hat. She does a lot of hat stuff. The cane. Yeah, the hat. It's kind of popping the hat. The collapsible hat. Yeah.

Why don't you have a collapsible hat? I was asking myself that same question. You can get one. I wrote collapsible hat, question mark? Yeah. It's sort of the classic sweet charity situation, right? Things are looking great. Yeah.

A guy's interested in her. Things are looking up. And then is interested in her things are looking up and then immediately something weird and humiliating happens to her yeah and she's just like sort of like gee willikers fascinated by all the rich fancy person shit around her like look at all this movie star shit you have your there's that line she has where she's like you took back to her apartment but it wasn't an apartment it It was like, like, I like that she's sort of more fascinated that she is dejected. Yeah. When this, the ex-girlfriend that he's complaining about.

Yeah, she rolls with this punch. Ursula is the ex-girlfriend. Okay. She's, yeah, she's still returning home to the girls being like, I spent the night with a movie star, you know, and they're like, you just got his hat and his. Right. They're like, you don't understand that he took advantage of me. And she's like, he didn't take advantage of me. It was fun. And they're like, then that's depressing. And they're like, it wasn't his hat and his. Right. They're like, you don't understand that he took advantage of me. And she's like, he didn't take advantage of me.

It was fun. And that's depressing. And they're like, it wasn't depressing. I had a good time. I slept in a closet. Yes. But, you know. A dumb waiter, though.

And he brings a supper. Yeah. What a boob. I would. I mean, someone brings me supper in a dumb waiter. And calls it supper. And calls it supper. Calls it supper. That's a classic dinner. I it supper. And calls it supper? Calls it supper.

That's a classic dinner. I'm sold. Signed, sealed, delivered. When she walks out of the closet and she sees. Then we'll put out for a dumbwaiter. Yes. We'll podcast for supper. When she walks out of the closet and she sees Ursula lying naked in the bed.

And her reaction is just like, those are unbelievable sheets. Yeah. It's funny. There's, those are unbelievable sheets. Yeah. It's funny. There's no sense of like jealousy. No. I feel like she does. Because it's right then that she goes to the employment agency.

She does have some sense of like, I gotta figure it out. But yeah, she doesn't take it hard. I think it's more, it's less about that she didn't end up with him and more about she was like, God, it'd be cool to have that kind of life.

Right, right. She wants to be fancy. Can I go legit? There's something about the way she't end up with him and more about she was like, God, it'd be cool to have that kind of life. Right, right. She wants to be fancy. Can I go legit? There's something about the way she's dressed throughout. I mean, she's kind of wearing the same trench coat with a black dress. But it made me think a lot of like how when you're trying to fit in in these spaces,

like, you know, that it's almost like you gotta wear like really simple classic stuff. Sure. And there was just something about how she still sticks out, but it's kind of nondescript in the way that she's dressed. But you can tell like she doesn't belong there.

She doesn't fit in. Yeah. But also like this would be the coolest looking lady in Brooklyn today. Oh my God. People would be fucking falling over themselves trying to get her attention. She goes to an employment agency.

She has no special skills. She kind of gets chased out of there when she admits that she's a taxi dancer. And then she meets a guy in the elevator and the elevator gets stuck. And they have a whole thing. But the whole sequence in the elevator is so good. She's so, because obviously he's now the funny one. Right. Because he's having a meltdown.

She's very sweet where she's just like, I guess this is happening to me now. Like, I think she's very winning in this scene. And the comedic business leads to her doing this musical number about his face, like, manipulating his face while he's passed out. It's cute. It's such a bizarre stretch of a movie. And then, like, make it a fucking cliffhanger in the middle. It's so funny.

Yeah. That is It's a Nice Face. The in the middle. It's so funny. Yeah. That is... It's a nice face. The song is called It's a Nice Face. It is? Yeah, it's a nice face. Can I say this thing, and I don't mean this backhandedly in any way?

Yeah. This performance does have that thing. I feel like, unmistakably, you sometimes see in a movie musical where you're like, this is the person it must have done on broadway sure i guess there's just a familiarity there's an ease with it it doesn't feel like someone is like trying to pop really hard it's like they're just working as part

of the show you know what they're doing they're serving the show yeah versus like shirley mcclain this is like i gotta prove something no i think you're right i need to pull off a musical you know yeah and he's very funny yeah but you're right pull off a musical you know yeah and he's very funny yeah but you're right it's it's you know precise what he's doing and it's such a type that kind of like nebbish who's in analysis in the late 60s like there's a you know it's a very neil simon type yeah obviously um imagine if it was alan alda the elevator what do you mean i mean i can't do alda but it would be really good um and then they start going out elevator they do a bunch of normal shit and also he's like why don't we go to some alternative church where sammy davis jr is going to do a

number for us right it's truly like now people will be like was this adr this line where he's like let's go to my church. Right. Because there's this whole church sequence. They are not seen. In Knights of Cabiria. Sings the rhythm of life. The church they go to hasn't been taken over

by the electric mayhem. Look, it's good. I'm not complaining. It's great. It's like such a reference to Electric Dayglo, like Ken Kesey, right? All that stuff.

I just love that it's just referencing the 60s in that way yeah it's the end of the 60s there's a lot of hippies in this that was like happening at that time but you don't like hippies i don't like and this movie's got some you like sammy yeah you do like sammy i mean this these are more druggy hippies i like that's more right this is more more my speed right yeah but i love the joke of kind of justifying it where he's like yeah it's my church of the month club or something and like i feel like they're kind of joking about basically the spiritualism movement of the 60s and how they really were just all of these weird little kind of like alternative religions and churches and wellness things.

Absolutely. There could be something more than just regular old Sunday services. Once again, what we're talking about, like pretty much a 10-minute sequence in which our main characters watch a musical number with characters who will have no bearing on the rest of the film. Which is fun. Which is fun.

It's just fucking showcase shit. And it's called The Rhythm of Life showcase shit. And it's called the rhythm of life. Yeah. And it's Sammy Davis jr. Uh, having a blast. I know I'm not saying anything new here, but you watch this guy and you're like,

Oh, right. People used to like know how to do stuff. David, you haven't seen RRR yet, right? No, I actually booked tickets to see it.

I'll see if I actually get to do it. Okay. I saw, I saw it with a friend of the show, past and future guest, Brendan Hines and his wife, Humblebrag. And afterwards,

she just put it perfectly where she was just like, those actors can do anything. Right. Well, that's the Bollywood thing. They can sing, they can dance, they can do action sequences. They can do comedy,

they can do drama. Right, yeah. Sam Davis and James, the same thing where you're just like sing, they can dance, they can, they can do action sequences. You can do comedy, you can do drama. Right. Yeah. So it's the same thing. We're just like, this guy was trained, skilled,

innate talent, but also just trained to be able to do anything. Right. And always grab your fucking attention. Yeah. Um, that's sort of how British actors are, or at least used to be like this. Well,

the same kind of like you've been, you've been given every string to your bow, right? Like you have to learn to, to do accents, to dance, to do comedy, to saying that.

Yeah. Honestly, look, still watching like Benedict Cumberbatch on SNL, you're like, he has a comedic facility that is different than dramatic American actors. It's just true. It clearly was part of his training.

And the fact that so many like British drama school, serious actors also have to be part of a comedy troupe. Yeah. And have a sketch background. And then like Andrew Garfield like magically being a good singer and tick, tick, boom. And they're like, do you have singing experience? He's like, no, but I've like trained my voice before. I just worked on it for a month.

He's a good boy. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, the plot is in the second act is really nothing because it's just them dating for a while. Yes. There's that nice sequence in the subway station where they want to, like, they're going to kiss through the bars. My wife was going like,

don't touch the bars. And then after that is when she finally reveals, like, oh, you know, I'm a taxi dancer, and he already knew, and he's been kind of trying to be cool with it. But, and he initially is like i'm cool with it uh so they throw the diner where they're sitting in the opposite booze in the opposite direction don't look at me yeah they keep doing that bit um very funny bit yeah um and the whole birthday thing is it's cute it's not my favorite part of the song when she goes like it's basically the song about someone

loves me. Yes. Oh, man. That's when I like I started to get a little teary. I want to say this is secretly maybe my favorite number in the movie. I find something so I mean, I really like that song. Yes. What is I'm a brass band. The one where she's

initially crying and then she's like, in Yankee Stadium! There's a brass band going all around her and she's at Lincoln Center and there's fountains going off. We're moving around New York City. But this is also the sequence that starts to set the template

for what Fosse's going to do, which is the non-diegetic musical numbers are the inner life. Right? This is clearly taking place in its own reality. Even in a movie where we accept that people break into the song and dance. This is a fantasy sequence.

And I think that's the number that serves her best as a musical performer. Sure. I think that plays to her strengths. Yes. Yeah. I found it very sweet. It was very touching. I don't know.

It's fucking know that feeling. Right. Oh, absolutely. It's a magical feeling. If there is like a, an arc to this movie, it is a story about trying to convince yourself that you are lovable.

Yeah. Right. That you are worthy of being loved against like that is the battle. Yeah. Against whatever internal, you know, yeah right that you are worthy of being loved against like that is the battle yeah against whatever internal you know handicaps you give yourself oh no one's ever gonna love me because blah blah blah we should at least touch upon the gender politics of it because i mean it's obviously a movie of its time but watching it now i mean it's crazy i understand where it's all coming from but it really is like what you mean that she's like i'm not going to be a complete person until someone marries me oh man that that like all

of that stuff he does acknowledge that it's a rude question yes and she's like no no it's not a rude question like you know like but it obviously you're like jesus even the shot that little insert shot of him looking at the like all of that really didn't sit well with me. It made me feel gross. Yeah. It's a 50 year old movie. No, I know.

I know. I just felt like we should just mention, you know what I mean? Yes. Look, but I'll say this. I, I do think this is a movie that takes her side,

that argues that she is lovable. And that he is weak for holding that against her. You do watch a lot of films of this era where anyone who has slept with more than three people is coded as like unsalvageable. The movie also knows, and you kind of know in the back of your head, like, right, he's not going to be able to deal with it.

Of course. Especially once he says he's cool with it and the whole group is like, great, and they do the whole birthday, I love to cry at weddings uh thing not birthday wedding thing yeah you know where you just are me like he doesn't like this he doesn't want to hang out with stubby k no exactly yeah that's what i like about it that even it's just like the the weird like seediness of stubby is a thing he'd like you know he's like too waspy for

stubby even putting aside the like promiscuity of the environment, Stubby's just a little too, yeah. He was also, that actor, Stubby K, was also in the 1956 musical, Lil Abner. Fuck, playing what? He played Marion Sam. It's so funny that Lil Abner was one of those comic strips that was just like, this town and these people, and then also this goop.

There's a goop? Wasn't there a creature named Smoo or something, Lil Abner? I swear to God, there's a creature named Smoo? I don't know. And I think there's Smoo Jr. Yes, they're called Gobble Globs, and they eat rubbish, or as they call it, glop. They cannot be touched. They're living incinerators. Waste goes in and nothing comes out.

That is insane. What the hell? Oh, there's schmoos as well. There's lots of... The schmoos are the ones I was thinking. Yeah, the schmoo is this thing. Yeah, they look like goop. Yeah. They look like a stubby cow. Yeah, well, I'm not really in touch with any of that, but that's cool. You don't fuck with schmoos? No, I don't fuck with schmoos. But not that there's anything wrong with them. Yeah, well, I'm not really in touch with any of that. But that's cool. You don't fuck with shmooze?

No, I don't fuck with shmooze. But not that there's anything wrong with them. Yeah, please. Let's try to approach this with a modern mindset, David. Look, Oscar turns her down. He can't do it, right? She's wearing this gorgeous dress with daisies on it. It's so cute.

Yeah. She walks sadly through Central Park. And a bunch of hippies kind of, you know. Including. Including. Little Bud Cort. Oh, is that true? This is maybe his first movie?

I mean, he can't have been that old. There's a close-up shot of him. I don't even know if he gets a line. Sweet Charity. It's his second. Well, he played a student in Up the Down Staircase the year before. He's uncredited in this as well, but this is his second role. There is a close-up.

You can see him with the classic glasses. And one year later, he is Brewster McCloud. And he's in MASH. Why do I always forget his character? Because he's not Raider O'Reilly. He's Boone in MASH. Lorenzo Boone. But yeah, a little Bud Cort.

You know Bud Cort? You know Harold Armand? Yeah, sure. You saw Brewster McCloud, too. Oh, I've seen it. You did? Lorenzo Boone But yeah A little Bud Cort You know Bud Cort You know Harold Armand Yeah Sure You saw Bruce McLeod too Oh I've seen it You did We went to see it together

Yeah We saw it with my dad And the two of you went That makes a lot of sense Yeah I guess I'm real good And your dad was like That movie's weird

And you were like Yeah it's like this movie We saw together And he's like Yeah I know It's just weird I was like I grew up with you

Telling me it's one of your Favorite movies of all time And he was like I know Isn't that fucking weird But I was like, I grew up with you telling me it's one of your favorite movies of all time and he was like, I know, isn't that fucking weird? But what do you think of these hippies, Ben? I just, you know,

I was just watching and I was like, I was very into the moment while also being like, God, this has been annoying in the 60s, these flower children

just walking around with guitars handing people daffodils and shit. To be honest, I was too in my feels to really like get caught up on the hippies.

I am kind of a sap now. It's true. It's really happened with age. Joined the club. I've joined the club, but just at the end there, I'm like, life is just so fucking hard sometimes, but you get through it, right?

It's a new day. The sun comes up, and you just got to keep walking. Yeah. Man, it's so profound but so simple i don't know look it's fucking it's i cried like a baby it's a thing that almost always works for me in moments it's like the fucking ursula giving peter parker the cake moment where you're just like just one isolated act of kindness from a stranger who owes you nothing and you just go

like fuck yeah no i'm gonna do i'm to live another day. Ursula's a babe. Ursula rules. We'll have talked about her for four and a half hours. I hope we do. Not four and a half hours, though. We're doing a main feed bonus Ursula episode. Great, sure. That's what we'll do. Yeah, no, it's a lovely ending. I love the ending. It makes me very

you know, yeah, it's perfect. It's as it should be, I think. Obviously, it would be insane for there to be a happy ending but like i just like it it's also not too miserable no she is kind of bossy brownface maybe she was notoriously bossy shirley mclean yeah fair enough i love her in uh terms of india i'm pretty bossy well yes but i'm saying i look, still is. She's still with us. But all the stories where everyone who worked with her was like,

that's like the toughest person I've ever worked with. Cool. Don Siegel did fucking... I'm scared of her. Yeah, truly. I'll find that quote. There was a Don Siegel quote that is unbelievable about Shirley MacLaine. I'll find it.

And then we'll play the box office game. Two Meals for Sister Sarah, indeed, is the movie. I don't know what this quote is, though. I'm going to find it. You pull up the box office game.

I'm going to find it. I pulled it up. Okay. We're ready to go. Here we go. Okay. I think this is what you mean. It's hard to feel

any great warmth to her. She's too unfeminine and has too many balls. Too much balls. She's very, very hard. Is that the quote you mean? Yeah. It's on his Wikipedia. Yeah, I think that's the one.

He thought she had big balls. She had big ass balls. This film opened in April 1969. Okay. Nice. And it actually opened to number six at the box office. Okay. So it's not in our top five, but it is, you know, it is opening big-ish.

Sure. Rojo. Right. But number one is a Disney family comedy. Live action? Live action. Hmm. Is it a Fred McMurray?

Nope. It's not. Is it Apple Dumpling King? Nope. Hmm. Is it a Herbie? That's right. Is it the original? King? Nope. Hmm. Is it a Herbie? That's right. Is it the original?

Yeah. What's that called? The Love Bug? The Love Bug. Just called The Love Bug, right? Yeah. Dean Jones. Dean Jones.

That's the, you gotta go through it. You're like, is it a Tim Conway? Is it a Fred McMurray? Is it a Dean Jones? Is it a Don Knotts? Yeah, Don Knotts. I guess, what's his pants? Kurt Russell, eventually.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Herbie, The Love Bug. I've never seen it. And's his pants? Kurt Russell, eventually. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Herbie, the love bug. I've never seen it. And you know what? Maybe I have seen this one. I definitely saw all of these as a kid. Disney Channel used to have so few movies in rotation.

I definitely saw all of them. Does Herbie Goes to Monte Carlo, Herbie in Love? Yeah. I have seen all of them. It's a talking about. Herbie Rides Again. He doesn't talk, but he's magical. Right, right. I have seen all of them Herbie rides again Herbie goes bananas They redid the love bug of course

In the 90s with Bruce Campbell of all people And then of course they did Herbie fully loaded In 2000s with Lindsay Lohan Herbie goes to Monte Carlo And Herbie and love do exist I'm not seeing Herbie in love

I'm seeing that he went to He wrote again of course Then he went to Monte Carlo as Herbie in Love do exist, right? I didn't make up the title. I'm not seeing Herbie in Love. I'm seeing that he went to Harvey... Sorry, he wrote again, of course. Of course. Then he went to Monte Carlo, as we all do. And then he went bananas. He must fall in love with one of them. I remember where he flirts with a female car. But he doesn't talk.

He's just a car that's imbued with some spirit. He's got a little personality. Dr. Strange rides again. Dr. Strange goes to Monte Carlo. Dr. Strange goes banana. I think it's just a good... You could put it to it's a good four yes i agree right batman goes to monte carlo of course yeah bananas yes yes yes world war goes to monte carlo love bug a huge hit humongous starring Clearly a fucking franchise. Starring Dean Jones, who I best known as, you know, the original Bobby and company.

Of course. He's on the Broadway cast album, even though he quit the role almost immediately. Because he was like, this is too, like, you know, too dark, too sexy. We're going to do a Herbie on Patreon. No, we're not. Nope. That's a no from me. No.

Okay, yes. Uh, number two is another musical. Um, that's... Is it Hello, Dolly? No, but that's the correct star. Hmm. Is it Funny Lady? No. Fuck.

Is it On a Clear Day You Can See From... No, it's Funny Girl. Oh, oh. And it's 28th week. It's just eaten. Wow. I guess Barbra Streisand probably has just won an Oscar. This is April 69.

Sure. Because it was a 68 movie, so. Wow. Hello Beautiful. That's what she said to the Oscar. Funny Girl. Barbra Streisand. Yeah.

Omar Sharif. Yeah. It's a William Wyler film. Yeah. There you go. One of the rare musicals to get a theatrical sequel. Like a weird thing. That's true. Very weird to get a theatrical. Yeah. Yeah. It's a William Wyler film. Yeah. There you go. One of the rare musicals to get a theatrical sequel. Like a weird thing. That's true.

Very weird to get a theatrical sequel. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, Babs tied with Katharine Hepburn that year. Very strange. Right. Very strange. Number three at the box office is a war film.

Imagine how nervous you would feel. Because in my memory, they let go like, it's a tie. And they announce one of them. And then they let them give the speech, and then they announce the other one. I can't imagine that's what they did. I feel like that's what played out. Because if you're, like, one of five, and then they announce the winner, but they tell you someone else's one, and you're like, now I have a one in four shot? I don't know.

Yeah, that's fair. My memory is they stagger it. I'm going to watch it right now. There they are, the best actresses of 1968. Ingrid Bergman. I was going to watch it right now. There they are, the best actresses of 1968. Ingrid Bergman. I was going to get... In the line in winter, Patricia Neal, for the subject was roses.

I wish Ingrid Bergman could say my name like this. Greta Thunberg, Blank Jack, Greta Thunberg. Barbra Streisand holding Elliot Gould's hand. Rachel, Rachel. Elliot, yeah, it was pretty hot. Elliot Gould looking insane. The photo of them in the fucking spotlight. It's a tie.

Who? The winners are... Ingrid Bergman, I want to say, looks genuinely charmed and surprised by this. I'm going to show you her reaction. It's the first time this ever happened. Certainly in a major category. It's the only time it's ever happened. Yeah. Wow. She's the only time it's ever happened. Wow.

She's holding her chest. Okay. Okay. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Wild, right? So Babs gets on stage first. Yeah. And does Hepburn just wait for Or is Hepburn not there?

Or do they just say it at the same time? Do they both just make a speech simultaneously? They yell at each other This clip is only of her speech I don't know if Hepburn was Maybe Hepburn wasn't even there Maybe Hepburn was I don't know

Number three at the box office is a war film Two huge stars Two huge stars in a war film This is not a famous movie. It's not a famous movie. Is one of them John Wayne? No. It's a famous movie, but I'm saying like this,

I don't think this film is considered a classic, but its title is like the kind of title people would know. For something like heroic sounding. I don't know. Fuck. It's hard to describe. I don't think you're going to get it. Is Eastwood one of the two stars?

Is it Where Eagles Dare? It's Where Eagles Dare! There you go. It's a good title. The other star Where Eagles Dare is, I'm totally blanking. A famous Welshman. Famous? Is it Connery? No, Connery Scott. What the fuck am I talking about?

If I say famous Welshman, it's two people. Witcherburton or Anthony Hopkins, probably. Those are the two famous Welshmen. Yep. Where Eagles Dare. Never seen. How would you know that, though?

Has a fight on top of a cable car. Sounds exciting. One of those movies I just probably will never see in my life. Probably not. Probably not going to get to it. No offense. It's 155 minutes. I'm sorry to this man,

but I don't think I'm ever going to watch this. Number four at the box office is another musical. One that we forgot to mention in discussion of late 60s musicals. It won Best Picture

the prior year. Oliver. Oliver! Exclamation point. Yeah. You ever seen that? No. No?

It's about little ragamuffins Who steal Pickpockets You've got to pick a pocket Or two You know They have a song about pickpocketing Have you never seen Oliver

I've never seen any musicals Ben the whole fucking thing Is about pickpocketing You've heard of Oliver Twist Oh yeah Sure You know this guy Of course

Jiminy Sweet He is No he's not Jiminy Sweet Oh Ben just reacted like We were throwing things at like he recoiled physically as if we had chucked a tomato in his head uh no he's oliver twist he's a little pickpocket he's a pickpocket he's an orphan who gets the whole fucking thing sucked

in by a boy called the artful dodger he gets taken in by other pickpockets I mean this is all This is all connecting strands here for me But I don't know I don't know It's a great show And it's a good movie But it's Carol Reed Obviously a master But it's like you know

Kind of one of those late 60s It's a weird Best Picture winner It's one of those Best Picture winners Where Right isn't it The 68 Oscars Is Now I have to look it up

But it's It's the most conventional winner It's the most conventional winner Right isn't it The 68 Oscars Is um Now I have to look it up But uh It's It's the most conventional Winner It's the most conventional winner And isn't that Bonnie and Clyde year and stuff I have to look this up

Uh Is that Con City yourself Or is it 69 I can't remember I think it's 69 Cause uh Fucking

Dr. Dolittle's in The Bonnie and Clyde year Am I wrong about that You are correct Yeah yeah Right It's actually a much more Boring line up

It's Romeo and Juliet, Rachel, Rachel. Good movie. Lion in Winter and Funny Girl. Yeah, okay. So that's like a pretty... It's a consensus. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right. Number five of the box office is, well, I just mentioned it. Hmm. It was in the Best Picture. It's a drama. Is it Lion in Winter? The Lion in Winter.

Huge box office success. It was. I mean, it's a movie that is... I've seen it and I love British history. Sure. You know, not the fastest moving movie I've ever seen. You know, it's just one of those

things where you're just watching Peter O'Toole and Katherine Hepburn roar, you know, go for it. And Anthony Hopkins is really good in it, too, you know. It's just acting. I've got a beard and a big robe with fur on it i'm the king yeah and she's like yes and i'm eleanor of aquitaine i don't know what she does

sure uh you know they're getting old one of those it's one of the many movies about katherine heparin getting old that she just sort of kept doing right well they're lions and went there one could say that's what they are. Sure. The Lion and... Have you ever seen it? No. I've never seen it. Anthony Harvey film. So number six is Sweet Charity.

Wow. Number seven is a film called The Killing of Sister George, which is a black comedy from Robert Aldrich, Aldrich? Uh-huh. Aldrich? Sure. Starring Beryl reed and susanna york it's a stage play that's being that was marketed on stage as a comedy but is being marketed as a film as a shocking drama and added explicit

lesbian content and was presented as a serious treatment of lesbianism wait this was like an early film to acknowledge that girls might kiss and they kiss in the movie oh what's that what's the name um i don't i don't know it had an x rating because of a graphic sex scene on wikipedia how graphic was this sexy what are we talking about here yes uh i don't know um but um but yeah it was a controversial film this movie is seen as a flop. And people go, maybe Fosse. Another in a long line of people who don't make the transition. Worked really well. I'm going to meet him. I guess he's not a picture director.

I guess it has nudity. All right. It was a big shocking scene. Sorry, I'm stuck on this. Killing of Sister George. Remind me what the name of this movie is. The Killing of Sister George. Okay, thank you.

There's also a film called 100 Rifles. Okay. A Western with Raquel Welch and Jim Brown. Yep. Oh, it's got a good tagline. Fuck. This picture has a message, colon, watch out. Shit.

They got 100 rifles, I guess. Yeah. Also, Romeo and Juliet. That's a Farrelly movie. Correct. And Charlie, the Cliff Robertson movie. Oh, so he wins Best Actor this year? He wins Best Actor this year,

playing sort of Flowers for Algernon guy. Guy who gets super smart. Yes. Right? That's what it's about, right? I've never seen it. Yeah, yes, yes. I've only seen the Simpsons episode

that's a parody of it, where Homer gets super smart. And it's a Bourne Legacy, which is a remake of it. Yes, exactly. Give me my chems. I need my chems. Limitless. That's another one. i feel like 10 years ago will smith announced he was gonna remake charlie and it was such a

clear like will don't do this yeah well that's better you don't want to play like a simple person who gets smart it's so smart because the thing with limitless is like he's starting regular and then gets smart yeah like you know in Charlie, it's supposed to be like, oh, he's someone with low IQ who gets smart. Limitless, he's just a mess. Yes. Now, Ben, I don't know if you know this, but Bob Fosse's next movie after this is called Cabaret.

I might have mistakenly said it was a Best Picture winner earlier. What I meant to say is that Fosse won the Oscar for it. He won Best Director for the movie Cabaret, his second film. Do you know what he beat at the Oscars that year for Best Director? We're going to talk about that. I just want to tee this up now, because Ben, I assume you're about to watch Cabaret for the first time. Have you never seen Cabaret?

I have never seen Cabaret. Wow. Shocking. Ben, I just want to take a guess as to what you think. What year was this? 1972. My wife is home.

Humble brag, David's wife is home. Okay. Bob Fosse wins Best Director at the Academy Awards for directing Cabaret, and he beats Francis Ford Coppola for The Godfather. Wow. I just want to speak to what an accomplishment. Yeah. That movie,

what a triumph it is seen as because The Godfather is like the highest grossing movie of the year. It's the most fucking beloved movie. It wins Best Picture. It's a cultural revolution and everyone's like,

we have to give the fucking Oscar to Bob Fosse though. This guy just like changed the game. Yeah. It's just, it's a big fucking deal. Yeah.

That like his accomplishment there was on that level. For a guy whose first movie is like, well, what can I say? He lost the plot. That's really wild. Yeah. You know, when people talk about like good directing in movies, they usually say like Francis Ford Coppola in The Godfather.

Well, sure. It's just like the ubiquitous best movie of all time. Right. Like, well, what a perfectly directed film. Yeah. But Cabaret also had a perfectly directed film. Yes. But Cabaret also had a huge impact, too. Huge. Huge.

Yes. And you'll see. You'll see. It changes the way people think you can make a movie musical in many regards. Yeah. Yeah. Cabaret. I'm excited to do that.

I'm excited to slither through the Fosse filmography. Sure. Have you seen none of these films coming up in? No. God, I love them. I mean, Cabaret's the only one I would have thought maybe Ben Saw just... I think you're going to love all these, and I think all that jazz is going to blow your mind.

Yeah. All that jazz belongs in the pantheon of the biggest blank tracks we have ever covered. Why? Just because it's more than just budget? It's... Well, I guess we'll get into it. That's a big hype, but I mean, it is the best. I? Well, I guess we'll get into it. That's a big hype, but I mean, it is the best.

I love it to death, so maybe you're right. I don't know. It was so over budget that the studio was going to shut it down, and a different studio was like, God damn it, we'll buy it from you, and they took it over. Wow. It was like, yeah, but also it's a guy making a movie about how much he sucks and how he's dying. It's like Bob Fosse eulogizing himself.

Alright, alright. We're talking about other movies here. Sweet charity. I'm just trying to tee people up because I want people to be excited. They should be excited. Yeah. And we're going to do Liza with a Z on Patreon. Liza with a Z on Patreon. And that's probably all we'll do, right? Yeah. There was brief discussion of doing a Lenny special.

We don't need to do that. I don't think that's going to happen. But Liza with a Z will happen. He becomes the first person to win a Tony, Oscar, and Emmy in the same year. For Liza with a Z, Pippin, and Cabaret.

Did he win a Grammy, though? I don't know if he ever won a Grammy. Look it up while I do the wrap-up of the show. Please. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate,

review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping to produce the show. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping to produce the show. Thank you to JJ Birch for compressing 42 years of a man's life into 17 pages of a dossier. Thank you to AJ McKee and Alex Barron for our editing, Lee Montgomery, the great American novel,

for our theme song, Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for our artwork. You can go to patreon.com slash blank check, blank check special features, where we are covering the Batman movies we haven't covered before and also doing a little Liza with a Z. As we said, go to blankcheckpod.com

for links to a bunch of other real nerdy shit. And as always, the answer to the question is... He never won a Grammy. Much like his fellow Eots, Al Pacino, Christopher Plummer, Maggie Smith, Jessica Tandy, fellow yachts al pacino christopher plumber maggie smith yeah jessica tandy very they're various you never got that good and there's another thing all those people have in

common what's that i've never made it to here all night i've never made a lloyd team