Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Boy and the Heron with J.D. Amato

Episode Date: December 10, 2023

It took seven years for Hayao Miyazaki and the artists at Studio Ghibli to make THE BOY AND THE HERON. What better way to honor that lengthy process than to invite JD Amato back for another clockbusting, context-loaded episode?! For a rather bit-free THREE-AND-A-HALF HOURS, we are diving into Miyazaki’s personal history, his creative process, the differing animation styles between the Ghibli greats, and the thematic implications of this beautiful new film. Because this is Blank Check, we’ve also got lots of thoughts on Robert Pattinson’s vocal performance, and a lot to say about some other, less-successful animated films released this year. This episode is sponsored by: Stamps.com (CODE: CHECK) Mubi (mubi.com/blankcheck) Masterclass (masterclass.com/check) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

Your podcast. She's awaiting your rescue. I'll be your guide. Perfect. That was never in doubt. And what I think is really great is how they cast Watto to do the English dub. Thank you. Do you know who they actually cast?

You know who does the voice? You were just listening to the trailer. Do you know who that was doing the voice? Well, that's what's so funny is I was watching the trailer and all these celebrity names come up and I'm like... Which one? I have no idea. I saw the movie before they cast the dub. And I was like, DeVito's just sitting by the phone, I assume.

Right? Sure. Who played the heron? Take a guess from that cast list. I saw it go by and I was like... Just guess. A celebrity? Yeah.

A huge celebrity. A-list Charlie Day. That would make more sense. That would make more sense. Probably just because he had to view it. Glenn Howard. Any name you say is going to make more sense. Someone who's got a real froggy voice. Let's make it clear. From listening to the dub trailer, he nails the voice,

right? He does a great job. The guy nails the voice. It's the last guy you would think is capable of doing that voice. I haven't seen the dub, but from the trailer it sounds like he did a great job nails the voice i mean the last guy you would think is capable of doing that i haven't seen the dub but from the trailer from the trailer sounds like okay i got it chris pratt oh you don't know either no it's gonna blow your mind because on paper you're like it's kind of a chris pratt where they're like why did you cast that guy but then of course the guy actually he's not gonna do the voice professional gvitt. That would make more sense. Until the wind rises. Yeah.

That would make more sense. Can we tell you? Who? Robert Pattinson. No way. That's Pattinson. And he does it. Bob?

Yeah, Bob. Bobby. Bobby P. Wow. Now, he did suck on like 10 vapes at once before every line reading. Well, that makes sense. You can hear it in the performance. Wait, that honestly

makes me really like Robert Pattinson. Of course. As it should. As should most of his career decisions for the last 10 years. But I'm just saying,

like, that's cool. But they announce him and everyone's like, here's another fucking Chris Pratt situation. He's going to show up and be like, I'm the heron.

Or he'll do a weird voice, but it won't be the right weird voice. And he clearly was like, no, I'm going to copy the voice, the original voice. Yeah, I'll do what

this guy's doing. I'll do that in English the uh real guy being masaki cool i love this movie i love this movie this movie has no quotes page no and it has no tagline so the the tagline was like the new film from hayo miyazaki the excitement when i did the waddle Voice opening was just because David had been verging on a breakdown as JD and I scrubbed through the trailer with captions on trying to find any line to work. Well, because we, me, Griffin and Ben. Yes. We, Griffin, Ben and I. Well said. We saw the movie yesterday together.

We saw it together. Obviously, we went subs not dubs and it's such I don't even know if you can see it with dubs right now you can

can you? you can Angelica has like two one or two show times a day are dubs the rest are subs right

but the dubs are just like a guy just comes to the front of the screen and just sort of yells every line it's Pattinson he's there Pattinson shows up

and does all the voices yeah you all saw it together we saw it together and I think it's an overwhelming movie experience sort of yells every line. He's there. Patterson shows up and does all the voices. Yeah. You all saw it together. We saw it together. And I think it's an overwhelming movie experience, personally. And so,

there's lines that stick out, but we could not be sure that we had them verbatim. No, of course not. But JD and I were scrubbing through on our phones the trailer playing at like five seconds apart

in a cycle. And David truly, JD said, is this the moment the podcast breaks up? You got a lot to do today. Yeah. I don't want to talk about this.

This is easy, light. This is always the latest podcasting day of the year for us, a JD doubleheader. If you're looking at the cast list and you're ranking it

by the American cast list. Sure, by fit? By, right, fit for Heron. Hamill is top. Yeah. For like, who's doing the Heron voice. Hamill plays Grand Uncle. Sure. By fit? By, right, fit for Heron. Hamill is top. Yeah. For like, who's doing the Heron voice.

Hamill plays Grand Uncle. Correct. Which makes a ton of sense. Willem Dafoe is second. He plays the Pelican. I would say Dafoe actually makes number one most sense.

But those two are at the top, right? Then I would say Bautista. Right. Who plays the Parrot King. Which is perfect casting. That makes total sense. Great casting.

But, you know, you could see him busting out a Heron. Yeah. And he was the visual inspiration for the guy king. Which is perfect casting. That makes total sense. Great casting. But, you know, you could see him busting out a heron. Yeah. And he was the visual inspiration for the guy inside. Then Bale. Yeah, Bale.

More known for her voices. Now I'm going to throw something at you. I think Florence Pugh is more of a read for the heron than Robert Pattinson. The woman sounds like

she smoked a thousand cigarettes. I love Pattinson and Pattinson obviously has tremendous range, but I've also never heard him do a voice that in any way approximates this. Whereas Pugh makes vocal choices. Pugh basically played the Heron in

Oppenheimer. She did. But I think that's something that's interesting. What a hot fucking Heron. I think, number one, a thing that I've constantly been reminded of in my career is that people who love acting love to do interesting things, right? Yes.

And then also, there is a, this is something that I really want to get into in talking about this movie, is that there is a certain, the Miyazaki bell rings and people show up. Yes.

Oh, yeah. It's like hard to say no. And this is final film. It's almost rude to say no. You have big final film. It's almost rude to say no. You have big names. I mean, I was just looking the... What was it? They're big names in like one line parts in this dub

because people are like last chance. Yes. Dan Stevens and Tony Revolari and Mamadou Afi, I think, play the like random other parakeets. The chorus of the parakeets. Right, right, right. Like these are real actors. Yes.

I can talk a little bit more about this when we sort of get into things, but I did a lot of subtextual work to watch this movie. I wanted this to be the full experience. So I put in a lot of work. It was happening sort of just anyways in my life. It's not really something you do

for this podcast normally. But you should show up sunglasses on and go, what movie are we talking about today? What is this? Are we talking about what billionaires? I don't watch movies. That's for nerds. What are we rewatchable-ing today? I can't believe

they let you ride the motorcycle into the building. Into the studio. What if I told you they didn't? Wow, you're such a rebel. I don't follow rules. This guy's such a heron. The heron voice, you've nailed it,

is closest to Dafoe as Green Goblin. Yeah, sure. In the realm of voices that exist. True. Spider-Man! I think Hamill has to be top

because he's actually the master of a thousand voices. But to get what I was going to say is I did an entire Miyazaki rewatch before this film. And read several books. Yeah, that was happening before you guys asked me to do this. You read Starting Point and

Turning Point, which are books I cite a lot on those episodes. I also read Miyazaki World. I don't know that one. It's about a kid who gets sucked into a weird other dimension. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I've seen this cover. Yeah.

It's fine. I mostly read it for the first part, which is more biographical. I was more interested in that. A lot of it is like thematic breakdowns of the films, which is interesting. But I was more interested in sort of primary sourced biography stuff. And then I was reading already stuff about Japanese cinema and the history of Japanese cinema and story stuff related to that

that I also want to talk about today. But that is all to say, this is the first time that I, in this rewatch, I did all dubs. Oh, interesting. I'd never seen any of the dubs. And so I did all of the dubs in chronological order. Which do you think is the best dub?

You know, it's so interesting because they have a lot of recurring cast. The dub that I didn't like was Porco Rosso. Oh, see, I mean, I just think Keaton's unbelievable. I think it's such a weird... I think it's so... I've definitely heard that dub. The movie has such a expressiveness

and such a fancy, and Keaton's playing it so low that it creates a weird friction to me. Yeah. I will say, I think Howl's Moving Castle actually is a really good dub. Howl's dub is surprisingly good.

And the crystal casting. Because Bale is Howl. Bale is great, but also the crystal casting, you're like, oh, shit. And then Crystal Howl's dub is surprisingly good. And the Crystal Castinger. Bale is great, but also the Crystal Castinger, like, oh, shit. And then Crystal nails it. Crystal is so good. You're so ready for that to get cloying,

and then it works. I think all the dubs are very impressive. Yes. Like, I think they are very, they do a good job with those. Yeah, they really care. Yeah, exactly. I mean, obviously,

excluding the now forgotten early dubs. Right, yeah. I mean, I, excluding the now-forgotten early dubs. Right, yeah. I mean, I've listened to the Ponyo dub a million times because I watch it almost every day. But you're talking the Disney-era G-Kids now acquired, right, the second wave dubs.

They did them right. I mean, here's the other thing I like about the Pattinson thing. It does kind of feel like, and G-Kids wants to get the best cast they can yeah I'm sure everyone's throwing themselves at this because it's the last chance to do a Miyazaki dub what have you it does feel a little like Pattinson being like I'm a big enough star that they'll let me do this and if I do it I ensure that it sounds like the character rather than anyone else coming

in and trying to put their own spin on it. I like that idea. I hope that that's where it came from. I like the idea that he's in there protecting it. I also could see a version of it where he's just like, yeah, I want to just like, I want to go, I want to do it. I've always wanted to play a hero. I want to do it, like

for real. Yeah. But I like the idea that people are coming to protect this thing. Totally. I mean, I was going back and forth between subs and dubs when we were doing those episodes years ago. Yeah. And it is interesting to watch. And I'll do this sometimes, too, with, like, the voiceover stuff I've done.

Now with streaming, you can toggle between different countries. Yeah. you can toggle between different countries. And it's interesting to see like, which people go, my job is to do that characterization in English. And which people go, I was cast. I'm doing my take on this. Well, it's interesting.

I was watching the Wind Rises dub. And there's a wide variance of the type of performance that people are giving. Yes. That is the strangest dub to me. Yeah. Well, that's also the one I think I... It's set in Japan. It's the weirdest one in a way.

Like, these are Japanese characters. But then the Herzog performance is kind of astonishing. Yes. But then there's like, what's his name from The Office? Which one? Krasinski. Krasinski.

Fuck, I forgot that. He's doing a lot more of a animation he's doing like a DreamWorks voice yeah where he's like well it's time for me to go to work today and I love

and then he'll be in scenes with Joseph Gordon-Levitt who's doing a very like realistic like you know empathetic

performance he's kind of an actor yeah Gordon-Levitt's kind of doing the Pattinson thing of like I place my stardom

in this spot to preserve the way this character should be played. That's also the dub where there was an article that was, I think we talked about this when we did the Totara episode, but like there was an article that was about it was lauding how wonderful

it was that they were able to adapt the script into English in a way that... Actually, they adapted it to make it more appealing to an American audience. And they were saying it in a positive way. But then when they gave all the examples, they hurt my heart because it was taking these very Miyazaki, very interesting lines and turning them into like

you know I've always loved you and I'm like no the first thing like even if it doesn't culturally translate like let it be that so that there's some

mystery of how this all connects and what the meanings are so we can sort of glean the sort of cultural reverberations of it versus being like nah you know

they're just saying they love each other isn't there like a big 90s Disney Renaissance guy who oversaw all those adaptations for a while? I don't know. Not Don Hall, but someone like that. I can't remember.

David, you seem so excited. Well, I think we should introduce our podcast. I'm worried that we're too, you know, right, locked into this. Two in the weeds already. I'm Griffin. Yeah, I'm David. It's a podcast about filmography.

It's directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear

and sometimes they bounce. Baby, this is a mini-series on the films of Hayao Miyazaki that was done four years ago that we are now concluding with his final film.

He says he's going to make another one. Does he actually? Yeah, and everyone says that he'll continue making films until he cannot. Until he dies. But do we think that is possible? Anything is possible.

As Kevin Garnett once said, anything is possible. Anything is possible. He's been just kind of up front about, like, even though I've made this movie that I know is very much about a man's legacy and what he leaves behind

and like saying goodbye. Yeah, I'm fucking back in the studio. I've got lots of ideas. Like, you know, I'm Miyazaki. Yeah, he's already... What am I supposed to do?

There was another project that was either going to be that or this. Okay. And I think theoretically it's like, oh, now I'm going to start working on that one.

His Alita battle. He'll tinker away. Yeah. What was the other project? It's like, I think like the's like, oh, now I'm going to start working on that one. His Alita battle. He'll tinker away. What was the other project? It's like, I think like the earwig and the witch or something. No, that got made. Right. His son made that. Oh. That was the CGI one that people did not like. It's not very good. Because he was debating whether

to do that or this. And then he had his son do that. That's a full Alita situation. It's an Alita situation? Yes. Go ahead. Cameron was developing Alita situation it's an Alita situation? yes, where Cameron was developing Alita and Avatar and was like I don't know which one I'm going to do it's one or the other and I'll do one and then immediately do the other

and then he did Avatar and he was like actually Robert Rodriguez is going to do Alita I'm trying to find the name I forget what the other title is then, I apologize it might be that though maybe he's just in there and he's like I've always wanted to do a remake of fucking you know night moves that you know Gene Hackman

how great would that be exactly you know what I mean like who knows what it is I've really been looking to get in a live action I'm done with animation I've been looking to stream for this introducing what your podcast I'm gonna do Thor 5 finally I got my foot in the door

signed on to do fucking Eternals 2. Yeah. We've heard your feedback. You want the Thor movies to be less goofy. Hayao Miyazaki is making his live action debut. J.D. Amato is our guest, returning to the show. Thank you. I'm very happy to be here. For what's basically

become your annual slots. Yeah, in December, we try to get a couple records in. Yeah. All at once. No, I'm really excited. It was an honor that you guys asked me

to come back for this movie. This was pinned like six months ago, I want to say. When we were like, oh, it's finally coming out. And I went, I agree.

Oh, we just, we should have, JD should come on a date. All of this says Lasseter and Doctor. Everything I'm finding. I think you're right that there was like

a Don Hall type. I'm trying to remember who it is. Because it's a big figure in animation who had the attitude of think you're right that there was like a Don Hall type. I'm trying to remember who it is because it's a big figure in animation who had the attitude of what you're saying of just like, I'm really excited and I take this seriously and I want to do it well, but he put a little too much of his own spin

on it, arguably. But I do love the Ponyo dub. I'm used to it now. Very used to it. I've seen the Spirited Away dub several times I think because that was yeah right that might be it though

I'm not very familiar with the other dubs have I seen the Kiki dub? we probably talked about all of this in the episode doesn't matter I would like to see this dub I'm intrigued

I'm excited to be here I'm excited to talk Miyazaki there's a lot to talk about with this movie. Nah, this movie's fucking an inch deep. Nothing going on with this one. Also, I'll say it. I've heard that the Totoro episode, maybe people felt like there's too many bits.

I don't think so. We're going to make this a bit light episode. You, yesterday, said, perhaps on the record, this is bit free. No bits. I don't think so. We're going to make this a bit light episode. You, yesterday, said, perhaps on the record, this is bit free. No bits. Packaged as bit free. No bits.

Stamp the label on it. Well, maybe, we'll squeeze maybe a little bit in the end. But listen, no, for all, we're no, truly, there's so much that I want to talk about here.

Okay. We saw this yesterday, as you said, in the basement of Angelica. The Angelica trains whipping around us on all sides. Theater shaking. The Angelica, of course, the downtown

theater in New York that is so committed to providing a mediocre viewing experience. They've done everything they can. They do have good popcorn. It's also a great way to watch a movie because it's a very old theater. You descend escalators down and you see all of the they have the little um names of the movies above the theater number it has that old-fashioned quality that's nice and they keep the doors open until the film starts sometimes even after it starts yes but you can sort of see

people watching and you're like this is a place of cinema and i will say there was moments during the film where i was like oh there's this sort of ominous rumble happening in them and you're like this is a place of cinema and I will say there was moments during the film where I was like ooh there's this sort of ominous rumble happening in them and I was like I had to remind myself and you're like and then you hear someone saying like this train is to Coney Island sometimes it syncs up perfectly just to be clear the Angelica a theater in a basement that also

features BDF and M stops underneath Broadway Lafayette station yeah but it's MTA subway it feels like it's sandwiched in between two train tracks. There'll be 5.1. JD is right. Yes. And Angelica has 5.1.1.

The extra speaker is the train. 5.1.BDFM. Sometimes you're watching a movie and there is this rumble and you're like, yeah, you know, that's part of the movie. And then you're like, right, no, it's the subway. The other thing is sometimes the train passes and suddenly there's a stillness that feels profound. Also profound. Look, this is the kind of stuff Miyazaki probably wants you thinking about.

Absolutely. The theater will briefly achieve a state of ma when the train has left the station. There's two questions I want to start with to open this discussion. The first is, I would like to know where everyone is at with Miyazaki in their life. And David and Ben and I

were talking about this before, is that I re-listened to a couple episodes of... Which ones? I don't remember which ones. Jeez. I guess they rocked. What is this energy?

They were so good. David's energy is unbelievable. No, what episodes? You don't remember. I don't remember. I think I... Emily's episode. Okay, she was on Castle in the Sky.

Castle in the Sky. And then one or two others. I forget which one. Ehrlich, maybe? Ehrlich was on Mononoke. Mononoke. No, Ehrlich was on Hell's Moving Castle. I sort of have them on the background.

Griffin McElroy was on Mononoke. I sort of have them on the background, so it's like they on Mononoke. I sort of have them on the background, so it's like they're sort of ephemeral in my mind a little bit. Sure. But one of the themes I picked up on, so famously, it's been long since recorded that David, early in our friendship,

referred to Griffin as I, as dumb animation nerds. Of course. I believe it was the... No, I did that on this podcast because you two were going on about whatever the fuck and i'll tell you what we're going on about the use of 3d and core line oh my god david no no okay this is what it was wow this is what you're

gonna have to release an apology yep no i won't yes you will no i won't yes no i won't and we already did this fucking discussion the last time you were on for carline right because you always feel like you have to defend it i don't have to defend anything but then on that episode yes who's the california raisins guy i was will vinton where you're like will vinton i'm like i don't know who that is and the two of you are like will vinton and it's like it's so hilarious leads into you being animatedream, motherfucker. Leads into you being animated. A modern man. So what a disrespectful way to refer to Will Vinton.

Who's the fucking California Raisin guy? He's doing it again. Oh, my God. Anyway. Oh, my God. Some fucking guy named Will Vinton. But it's just so funny. Some clown with a mustache.

You guys dared call us animation dorks. Anyway, I'm like, who's Will Vincent? You guys are like, you're dumb animation nerds. But then now in 2023, you're like, I don't know, the dumb raisin guy. I didn't call him dumb. I called you dumb. Some dumb plasticity fool. He's obviously a major talent.

Okay, but an interesting thing about our dumb animation nerd-dom sure griffin's a disney boy yeah he grew up on the disney pixar yeah that's his meat and potatoes i'm less a miyazaki guy than the two of you are yeah you're not a miyazaki i don't think you are a miyazaki guy no i'm not because you're really not really seen hardly any of them before we did the pod before we did the pod i had only seen Spirited Away and Totoro. And I don't feel like they touched your heart in quite the way. Well, had they touched your heart, you would have gone

to the other ones. No, I mean, Totoro I still struggle with, although I owe it another watch. Which is wild because I think it's like the greatest animated film of all time. I just rewatched it with my daughter. I can talk about me. You talk about you. And then Spirited Away, I didn't like when I saw it of all time. I just rewatched it with my daughter. I can talk about me. You talk about you. And then Spirited Away,

I didn't like when I saw it the first time because I was dumb, unintelligent, not a dumb animation nerd, which would have helped me. I wasn't approaching it from the right mind. And then when we rewatched it for the show, I loved it. Right.

But I do think I still struggle with him in certain ways. And there are films of his I wholeheartedly love. And there are other films of his I do kind of fight to feel. I'll also say, I mean, I think I had a big Japanese animation block for a long time. A lot of it was just sensibility and style. And I do think doing that series helped break that down a little bit. think doing that series helped break that down a little bit. But I also feel

like post that, I have gotten more into some other filmmakers than perhaps Miyazaki speaks to me specifically. I think that's a fascinating place to be. And I think that's a really interesting place to come to this movie with. But I think, I mean, there is no part of me that questions

him being one of the most important artists in the medium ever. I mean, I love Satoshi Kon. Sure. I'm going to butcher his name, but the Suzume, your name,

weathering with you guy, I love. I mean, that's like, Shinkai. Shinkai. It's like a major

run for me. And I've been watching more shows and stuff, but I mean, it's not like, I'm not to. It's not your. Yeah.

No, but I think that's a really interesting place to come to because this movie is yeah i think there's a lot of i think this movie works best when viewed through all of the context around it that built up to this film well this is why i wanted to say three of us saw it together the two of you were crying yes right the lights come up and both of you were like, I cried multiple times. Me AF when I saw it as well. Yes. And I immediately was like,

I'm still trying to puzzle this out. Yeah. Not like I don't like this, but I do feel like I struggled to get my head around this movie, which I felt with certain Miyazaki films when we were watching them. And some of them I've rewatched,

by the way, since the series. Some of them I've not, and I owe them rewatches. That series was also happening at a bad time in my life that I think was reflected somewhat in the episodes. Well, yeah, I mean...

Well, you as well. Yes. Yeah, that's the... I think I brought this up on the cursed Talking the Walk last year, and it didn't make it to the cut, but I... I think it did. I think it did make it to the cut. But I... I think it did.

I think it did make it to the cut. I don't think it did. I think it's important because everyone listened to that episode. That was a scripted episode and we just read what was on the cut. That episode was fictional, by the way. But the Totoro episode was...

When we recorded it, it was shortly after my sister had passed away unexpectedly. Yes. And that movie means a lot to me and I think it's such a pure depiction of family and especially siblinghood yes yeah and so i in retrospect i'm like oh yeah of course i wanted to engage more in bits and all that because like it was it was hard to it miyazaki

touches me in such a visceral way same and what i think is beautiful about him and i think can be hard especially for this film in this film he's quoted as saying like i don't even really understand all of it right which i think is a really beautiful thing is that this a lot of this is just um things that he's pulling from within himself and if they touch you i think they really can touch you yeah which there were certainly moments that got to me. And I am not looking for like a metaphor codex. You know, it's not like I was sitting there being like, I can't crack this one onto the next. Yeah, right. And I also I've like come to understand the flow of his films being different than so much of what I watch and needing to process them in a different way and open yourself up and engage with them in a different way. And some of them, it does work for me and other ones I, I, without diminishing them feel like I haven't gotten there yet on that one.

Right. And this definitely felt like one of those for me. Uh, I mean, two things I kept on thinking about a lot while watching it. Um, I, I think it is weirdly similar

to Wendell and Wilde in an approach of guys who were just like, do I make another movie ever again? This process takes like seven years and it keeps on having these stops and starts. And Wendell and Wilde,

similar to this, feels like a buffet line movie where he just keeps on putting stuff on the plate David your letterbox log was to this effect

that like the first half of the movie right while I'm watching you're like you don't want to just like maybe go back to the table

eat some of this and then maybe you can go back for seconds right and it's like no we're putting this on we're putting this on we're putting this on

can you resolve all of this right Wendell Walt a movie that like overstimulates most people and they just tap out like 30 minutes in and I think it's kind of a messy masterpiece

but it does ultimately work for me I was watching this getting overwhelmed by like how much it was loading on but

I think there's some really interesting context to when you understand how the film was made yes and what film was made. Yes. And what it was made that then answers some of the questions of that. And I understand, admittedly, a small percentage of that.

And then talking after the movie, you filled in more of it. And I've been excited to talk about it now today. Yeah. The other thing I was thinking about just in terms of my struggles with Miyazaki sometimes, I was thinking about just in terms of my struggles with Miyazaki sometimes, I think in a certain way, philosophically, the filmmaker,

I don't want to say philosophically, but in their relationship to their dialogue with like humanity and existence and the world, like the biggest concepts. He is weirdly similar

to Werner Herzog for me. Sure. Where it's like he's staring straight into the sun. There is like a very sober, like, this is what it is. I'm not mincing words, right? And then Werner Herzog works on a much more literal level very often, although there are obviously zags from that. And Miyazaki translates that mostly into feeling then, right? But they are about this, like, we cannot hide from this. This is the conversation that we are in. And Herzog, I find him weirdly relaxing, even when he's directly staring at the things I find most upsetting in the world. There's something about Miyazaki filtering that through sort of like dream language.

Right. And obviously his films are very dreamlike, where I sometimes find them too painful to deal with. And it's similar to like Wind Rises, which is an episode where I completely spiraled. It is a movie I think is great, but I was like, I cannot handle this. I cannot handle this.

And this movie at times was like crystal clear to me on an emotional level. And I was like, this is hitting me really hard. Other times I was really locked into just the beauty of what was happening. And other times I was like, I understand what he's talking about here and I like need to leave this conversation. Right. I can just not handle it. I'm too weak. It has the feeling of when I wake up in the morning and there's a dream that doesn't make sense to me, but it was clearly poking at a bruise that is very raw for me. And I'm like, I will get no resolution on this.

This is now just conjured up feelings that cannot be resolved in my real life. I have to poke the bruise. Griffin, what if I told you I will be your guy? Well, this is what I'm waiting for. Now, David, what is your relationship with Miyazaki? I love Miyazaki's films very deeply.

I've seen them all many times. Did you watch, were you exposed to them as a kid? Or as an adult? Oh, not at all. I think it's almost certainly me seeing Spirited Away in theaters when I'm a 16-year-old cineast. And being like, this is my jam. That was your first one?

I can't remember if it was that or... I think it might have been, I might have seen one but it, like probably on TV like on tape or whatever. And it didn't have quite the impact. But I just, as someone who is not an anime fan, like never, never

got into it, apart from Pokemon of course. Gotta catch them all. I'll just shout out a different Pokemon every week. Great. Every all. Shout out Diglett. Gotta catch them all. I'll just shout out a different Pokemon every week. Great. Every week that we do

this episode. Yeah. This is the new format of the show going into 24 by the way. Yeah. Pokemon recap and Miyazaki

existential crises. You do sound kind of like the heron today. I had a cold and this is and yesterday I was talking so much because I was at the Critic today. I had a cold and this is and I think yesterday I was talking so much because I was at the critic circle and I was yelling results to people because I'm the

counter. You're the counter? I am. I'm the counter. He gets results. I literally get results. Do you wear like a barrister's wig? I wear a barrister's wig. No, I wouldn't wear a barrister's wig. What are you talking about? Why would you? I don't know, because you take your job seriously? Yeah, because you care about the sanctity of the process. I imagine it's all of you in an underground chasm around a marble circular table. You're in a barrister's

wig with an abacus. And then people in cloaks hand you pieces of sharp metal that account for votes. And you go, one vote for Killers of the Flower Moon. It's that except instead of a chasm, we're in a sort of meeting room at the Film Society Lincoln Center. And instead of metal objects, we have pieces of paper

that people have scribbled things on. But there is an abacus and you do wear a barrister's mask. Jordan Hoffman brought an abacus one year as a joke and then two minutes in was like, get this out of here. You're surrounded with the skulls of past members of the order of course Andrew Sarris looks at us from a shelf his body has been stuffed and mounted and then you decide

who wins the Oscars right and then we keep saying that we're like they shall win what was I saying oh I love Miyazaki obviously but the big I mean I love him youazaki, obviously. But the big, I mean, I love him. I mean, you can listen to the past episodes. The big thing for me. You don't think we should?

I don't know. You're clearly filled with regret. I am not. Much like a Miyazaki character. No regrets. Yeah. But I have a daughter. Yeah.

And one of the first things I would watch with her when she was a little baby, is there something on HBO Max or whatever it's called now. Zaz Labs. Max. Zaz Labs House of Fun. Max is the one to watch when you want to watch HBO. What do you mean?

Right. It's very easy to remember. It's called Zax now. The logo is his little glasses. The logo is just that picture of him and Graydon Carter look like they're like two guys who just shot an elephant. You know, they're like these white suits. At the con party while the strike's happening. Why didn't anyone show up?

I'm sorry. We can cut that out if it's going to affect any future business for you. Me making fun of Dan says. I mean, it'll be okay. Yeah. Thanks, Ben. You guys, I haven't told you. Ben's my manager now. Ben's your manager and you guys are pitching Zazz Lab hard.

You're like, here's a great project for you to sink money in and then never air. Tax break. It's like a producer's scenario. You're pitching Zazz Lab to Zazz Lab, right? You're pitching Zazz Lab tonight. Exactly. People just haven't gotten to know you yet. The only reason they'll like you Is they haven't heard you talk

David Happy holidays Oh thank you See you later Okay bye Ding dong Who's at the door I don't know

You should probably go open it Creak Hello Hello who's this Don't you recognize me Uh no Can't see you So dark

Sack Okay you got a sack My long robe Okay Don't you recognize me? Uh, no. Can't see you. So dark. Sack. Okay, you got a sack. My long robe. Okay. My hat. My jangling bells. Uh-huh.

Wait, you're a cowboy? I'm Stompus. What is Stompus? Well, we all know. Oh, boy. Everyone's laughing. We all know. Good sign. Stomper Claus.

No. What? Stomper Claus, who brings you stamps for Christmas. And I'm the evil version of Stomper Claus. My name is Stomper. I'm sorry. You are the evil version of a stamps.com promo character. Have you not met him yet?

Am I sort of jumping ahead in line? I was told that Stomper Claus had already done a bunch of. The IP had some real footholds. You're telling me that I'm riffing on a thing that was not established within the canon of the show? I don't know. Did you do this and I wasn't here for it? Me? I definitely have never met either of these guys. This is all new to me. What's your deal? I'm Stompis.

Okay, so you're kind of like the Krampus to Santa Claus is the idea. I think Krampus is kind of the Stompus to me, if that makes sense. No, it doesn't. Okay. Okay, well, what's up, Stompus? Well, we all know that Stompaclaus.

We all know from Stompaclaus. We know how he works. He brings the good children, the boys and girls of the world their own stamps. He goes to the post office. He picks them up.

He drops them off in their stockings. Yes. That is not how Stumpist works. Okay. Stumpist allows you to print your own postage at home. Oh, okay. Much like stamps.com.

Right. I also just, I don't want to have to make the house calls. Do you send anyone a free scale? I send them the scale, I send them the printer. Okay, okay. Yes.

And then I go, you know, you put whatever you want on there. Maybe put me, my smiley face, me, Stompis. Like, would you recommend maybe people use the stamps.com mobile app to take care of orders on the go? Yeah, I should mention, I don't have a competing business. You are advertising stamps.com. Yeah, I'm not on payroll.

Like, I'm not an official, but I just, I endorse their product and I send it to children. And you endorse the fact that stamps.com seamlessly connects with every major marketplace and shopping cart if you're selling products online. Yeah, it makes my life a lot easier. Okay. And it's been indispensable for over a million businesses for 25 years. Mine, one of them. Okay. Stamps Industries.

Let me tell you something. Give your business the gift of stamps.com so your mailing and shipping is covered this holiday season. Okay. Sign up with promo code check for a special offer that includes a four-week trial plus free postage and a digital scale with no long-term commitments or contracts. Just go to stamps.com,

click the microphone at the top of the page and enter code CHECK. I just wanted to say all that because I feel like your thing is so convoluted it might mess with the live read. Well, you're a paid sponsor.

You have copy. I do not. Right, exactly. They do not pay me to endorse their product. Your lore is so confusing. I just didn't want to really get in the middle of it. No.

No. Knock at the door. Oh, oh, oh, Mary Stampmas. Get out of here, you jerk. Am I late? Yeah, you're late. Sure. No.

You were supposed to queue up this guy. Clearly. All right this guy. Clearly. All right. Bye. Bye. There's a thing on HBO Max called like Miyazaki like backgrounds, essentially. That's just like a montage of like landscapes

with set to very plaintive Joe Hisashi movie music that I used to put on just to chill my daughter out when she was not really watching narrative television, but you could just put on pictures. Something that I was reading about. Something I loved.

That's really beautiful. And something I was reading about was that Miyazaki agreed to license all of his stuff to the streamers to fund this movie. Yes. Right. Because this is the most expensive Japanese film I've ever made. But now, my daughter who licensed all of his stuff to the streamers to fund this movie. Right, right. Because this is the most expensive Japanese film ever made. Yeah.

But now, my daughter was Ponyo for Halloween. Ponyo is the first movie she ever saw. She's seen it a thousand times? I mean, she's seen it so many times. And she refers to every... Now, any time... Like, when we were... We watched Totoro recently.

Yeah. And the little boy in that basically looks like the little boy in Ponyo. And she was like, Sosuke, that's Sosuke. And I was like, it's not, but sure, that's Sosuke. Go off. Yeah, go off.

I still think Ponyo is the easiest for a little kid. Because even Totoro is a little more emotionally intense. And Totoro, the being, he's cool, but he's scary. He's like, yeah, he's kind of of intense I think Totoro has a lot of adult POV of childhood whereas Ponyo you're like living in even just how

it's animated it's like it's child brain and it's so energetic and like you know filled with like laughter and screaming and running and hugging and things she understands Ponyo loves ham and of course he has my ultimate crush in it screaming and running and hugging and things she understands. Also, Ponyo loves ham. Ponyo loves ham. Yeah. And, of course, he has my ultimate crush in it.

Mega babe, hottest woman in cinema ever. Sosuke's mom. Sosuke's mom. You don't remember this? She's super hot. She's so hot. Also, just this voice is a good David character. TikTok montage of Sosuke's mom with some guy screaming.

And the number one. Batra 10,000. You've been waiting for it. The number one. With your raspy voice, you sound like a monster truck announcer. Start your engines. SoSka's mom. SoSka's mom would do great

at a monster truck rally. She drives like a demon. Ladies and gentlemen, rev your engines. The top five times when I cried during a Miyazaki film. Coming in at number five. This is Macho Man David Sims. I cry. You know what really stands up?

I cry at the end of Ponyo all the time. And I've seen it so many times at this point. I watch it with my daughter. The end always gets me. It's so powerful. And it's not even one many times at this point. I watch it with my daughter. The end always gets me. It's so powerful. And it's not even one of his more emotional endings. It's just so perfect. Absolutely.

They kiss and then she turns into a girl. Anyway, I saw this film at its premiere. The world premiere of the, you know, non-Japanese version. I was watching it with subtitles, obviously. But like the world premiere of this outside of Japan. It had come out in Japanese theaters already.

It came out in the summer in Japan. And one of the coolest movies of all time with zero marketing. Zero trailer and just a poster that's just a heron. Yeah.

The eye. Wasn't the poster just the close-up of the eye, basically? It's like the heron in profile. Oh, sure. It's like, yeah. And I saw it

at the Toronto International Film Festival opening night. Usually the opening night movie there. Oh, sure. It's like, yeah. And I saw it at the Toronto International Film Festival opening night. Usually the opening night movie there is kind of like a, you know, crappy crowd pleaser. Sure. This is the boy in the Heron. We're all seated in the Princess of Wales. Obviously, Miyazaki doesn't come. He doesn't fucking know.

You know what? So the... He was busy seeing American fiction. I think Toshio Suzuki came. He may not have even come because he's kind of old at this point. Like a producer came out. yeah and basically was like you know miyazaki-san is like so happy for you to see this film and we hope that you enjoy it like we worked very hard on it thank you and goodbye you know like that was yeah rather than the usual like all right let's bring up this guy plays jim

the fucker yeah he's got two great scenes and here he is, you know, like for like 20 minutes. Jim the fucker. What was that? The Jim the fucker didn't win any. The awards campaign has died this season on the Vine. Maybe he can get a Sagnum, you know, maybe restart it. Remind me who played Jim the fucker? I'm not going to tell you. Okay. If you don't know, you don't deserve to know.

Okay. David, had you stayed cold on any information coming out of Japan? I knew nothing. Okay. Like, truly nothing. Yeah. But there wasn't much to know. No.

Because they didn't release, like, four stills. No, but that's what I'm saying. Like, when it opened in Japan, there was a bit of a, like, well, now if you want to dig online, you can find it. I could have gone to Reddit and found people basically in English saying like, Hey, I've seen the film. I speak book languages. I'm like,

here's what it's about or whatever. I did not do that. You were going in basically. They had released four promotional stills. And I think I had seen those once or twice. Sure. But that was it. Yeah.

Yeah. And I saw the film and I felt like Griffin initially of like, like an overburdened waiter. Right. You know, I don't know. I want mozzarella sticks and spring rolls? Actually, maybe I do.

You know, but yeah, being like, I'm trying to keep track of all this information so I can understand what's going on. And then I started to worry like, look, I think this is interesting and very like stimulating, but maybe this is going to be like a weird one. He's not going to pull it together.

And then he pulled it together so devastatingly well that I felt a fool for ever having doubted him in the intervening to, you know, like just then. You have still only seen it the one time? No, I rewatched it. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. That was my question.

Yeah. And I'm going to see it again at BAM next week with my friend Rachel, who's desperate to get back on this podcast. Makes fun of me a lot. Rachel Sanders. Well, then we'll have her back on. All right. Let's find a movie for her.

Boy in Heron 2. She likes to make fun of me for not having her back on. It's a bit we have. Well, sounds funny. Yeah, it is funny. Was it a long time ago? Terminator. Wow.

Very long. Whoa. You're two. First year of BC proper. Dang. One BC. Wow. Very long. Whoa. You're two. First year of BC proper. Dang. One BC. Wow. How did it take nine years to get to that joke?

It's all a joke. David, I assume you're not going to try to take your daughter to this. This is not one. No. She wouldn't care for this. Yeah. No, we've yet to go to a film and theater. It's because she's too young.

Though we're getting close And I wonder Couldn't get through the crowd She was dying to see it I love the fire bodega Claude That fucking movie It's gonna like win the Oscar this year or some bullshit

Not impossible It's not impossible This obviously could win But there's a world where Elemental wins Yeah and we just fold it up Not impossible. It's not impossible. This obviously could win. Yeah. Spider-Verse could win. But there's a world where Elemental wins. Yeah. And we just fold it up. Over the boy in the heron.

We fold it up. We call it picture wrap on movies. I did not see Elemental. It's bad. No. Why not? Racist against the fire people, I guess. Yeah.

You think they should stay in their part of town. You just don't like them. Or you're racist against the water people. Do you think they're stay in their part of town you just don't like them you're you're racist against the water people do you think they're hoity now i'm trying to figure out what mapping game griffin's playing i'm playing the mapping game relating to you the mapping game that they do that my favorite joke about elemental now is when people say they haven't seen it for me to be like yeah well that's because you're a racist which is the message of the movie i guess i bet you even think about how dirt people would take that news a thing the movie doesn't even really bother itself with the dirt no they're kind of like oh they're trees i guess anyway right the movie almost has a racist attitude of saying like the dirt people are kind of less important

people barely get any fucking rope either it It's an epic movie about elemental people. It only cares about two out of four elements. The air people are bossy and they love their air ball. Yeah, they play a sport that's like air basketball. I don't know. The whole thing. I can't believe this anymore. Stop telling me.

David's review. His letterbox line is the best summation of the movie ever, which was catastrophic metaphor collapse. Oh my gosh. Anyway. Ben, what's your Miyazaki? Yeah, how you feeling about Hayao Miyazaki? I had never watched any of his movies

until we covered him on the show. What's that? No, I was just going to say, J.D. walking out with the lights come up, and he's wiping away tears and he goes I don't think a Miyazaki movie has ever actually made me cry before and you wiping away tears go uh

not me yeah well you know yeah this movie definitely got me I'll just say that I have uh since we did the miniseries revisited Kiki yeah I it's about life in the miniseries, revisited Kiki. Your favorite.

Because I... It's about life in the big city, man. Kiki is incredible. Kiki is such an incredible movie. Kiki the movie where we came in to record on a Saturday afternoon and Ben was watching it on the couch weeping. It's such a gentle...

I mean, there's so much to like about Kiki's literary service. Yeah. And then I recently showed my girlfriend Spirited Away for the first time. Oh, wow. Sure. And she, as someone who is so anti cartoons, right, was like,

wow, I can't believe that something can be so deep. She's a bit of an Eddie Valiant in general. I don't know what that means. It's Bob Hoskins' character in Who Framed Roger Rabbit, who is prejudiced against tunes, much as J.D. is prejudiced against the fire people.

Thank you for translating, David. They should only have working class jobs. They can't make art. That's for sure. I don't even know the context of this. Everything I'm saying is in that movie. We're not exaggerating. I'm not taking the ball and running with it.

We're almost doing direct quotes. That's the movie's vibe. Fire people shouldn't make glass. Obviously, the movie's vibe is that these beliefs are wrong, but it is that these beliefs are prevalent in elemental society, which is highly stratified and bureaucratic. To selling embers, which is also her name. Sure.

And keeping flames alive. They shouldn't make glass. How dare you even suggest it? I just haven't seen this movie, so I just don't know. Rich likes to say that the water guy, the main water guy in Elemental, is the biggest cuck in the history of cinema. And it's true. Anyway. It's weird they didn't cast Jason Clarke to play him.

So... Mamadou Athiou, of course, is also in this movie. The Dup. David, I now have a question for you that I'd like you to turn on your professional critic brain for. Put the bearist away. Hannah Rosen is interviewing me on the Atlantic podcast.

I feel like I've done this before in our friendship where I really like to ask Okay. Critic brain for. There we go. Put the bearish away. Hannah Rosen is interviewing me on the Atlantic podcast. I'll be professional. I feel like I've done this before in our friendship, where I really like to ask questions about your critical process, because I think it's fascinating to me. Oh, thank you. I feel like at many lunches, I've been like, walk me through when you see a movie, what do you do? The practicality of my job, right.

So for a movie like this, that is the final film of a filmmaker. Possibly. Possibly. You know, everyone around him has proclaimed this to probably be the case. He's an older man just to be, you know, to get his age on the record. It's 82. And he'll be 83 in a couple weeks. Quite a challenge to get this movie finished.

Yes. He works methodically, slowly, however you want to put it. And so that's only going to hurt him more if he wants to pump some shit out about Thor fighting fucking Ms. Marvel or whatever Thor 5 will be about.

It's time for Betteray Bell to show up in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. But as a critic, how do you approach personal criticism of a film like this? Do you fold in all of the context and subtext in the career that builds up to this? Do you try to hold that in abeyance

and keep this to be a singular object that you're looking at? I'm obsessed with context. My reviews are loaded with it. It possibly could, I maybe should do less of it, but I am a, you know,

as anyone who listens to this podcast knows, I am mostly interested in what the filmmakers trying to tell me about themselves and their, you know, experience. You know, I'm an auteurist, whatever you want to call me, right? You know, like, I'm not,

like, it's amazing when I read my reviews back, I'm like, I'm not even mentioning performances I like because I'm so into getting into what the artist is trying to say with this movie or whatever, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. So no,

I'm, I'm having, I haven't written my review for this movie yet. Oh, fasting. I wrote a capsule for my Tiff coverage, but am I wrong in my assessment of like, I,

I, this movie primarily to me plays as a, what am I leaving behind film? And through the prism of like, also using that

to explore, like, how did I get here? What did I think I was trying to do? What am I actually, what have I actually been?

Yeah. What happens after me, you know? Well, so an interesting question that I'd like to pose that's sort of related to that idea is how much do we think

we should be listening to or believing artists when they tell us about their work? Well, this is a really interesting question. I think that's a big question about Miyazaki as a whole and filmmakers in general. And my opinion to a certain extent,

as someone who fans themselves on the creator side of making stuff, is to a certain extent, creators are able to create their work through whatever process, mental, physical, whatever, it takes them to make this thing. Their view of what that art object is that they created is limited by their own POV to it.

And so oftentimes, I don't think artists are the be-all, end-all source of information about what a piece of art or an art object is, especially because oftentimes the artist themselves becomes an art object, which Miyazaki has in such a major way. He is a singular name that represents themes and ideas

and all this stuff. And we all know that cinema is not a singular process. Even the most auteur of auteurs is a collaborative process. And so, but the fact that his films stand to be these are Miyazaki films, it means he becomes this art object.

And so I think it's interesting because he also has very strong opinions about what his films are or aren't about or what he knows or doesn't know about them. And one of the things I think is interesting is that he's... I want to sort of talk about his personal history because this is the first film that he has been like, I want to make a film about myself. At a certain point in the process, that was something that he was sort of saying. But he's also someone that very much says that his films are not about him processing his childhood or his own trauma. drama um but what's so interesting to me is because when i look at his life and his history and the themes of his film what i see is someone who is processing a lot of this stuff

so that begs the question of like do we what do we take from artists when they tell us about i was uh talking to a friend of the podcast who i will not name for obvious reasons in a second uh who who works on the creative side of things in the industry. And we were talking about our love of like old DVD behind the scenes featurettes and documentaries, especially the ones that are filmed during the filming of. Yeah. And he said, can I ask you a question? When did you realize that the people in those interviews aren't really telling the truth? And I said, the first time I did an interview like that.

Right, right. And it's not to say that they're all lying all of the time. But there is that thing as film nerds, right? And especially now that we're in the dossier era of this podcast and we're going for so many primary quotes, right? and we're going for so many primary quotes, right? Whether they're the quotes from, you know, development, production, promotion, retrospective 20 years later, whatever,

you're always seeing through the prism of, A, how that person is processing their own experience, which the movie doesn't really know what it is until an audience is engaging with it, right? And so much of press now happens long before anyone sees it where that skews it. But also, yes, there's like elements of people's lives that they want to hold on to for themselves. You know, is Miyazaki lying to

us or is he lying to himself when he says the work is not autobiographical? Either way, it doesn't change it. You can't take it 100% as fact even if... Yeah, sure. Whether it's strategic or whether it's just the limitations of your own relationship to the thing you make. He never worked at a mythical bathhouse is what he means.

Of course, he's in his art. What makes him think he has the right to tell that story? I mean, it's disgusting. It's disgusting. But he never saw his parents become hogs. Right. This is true. So he wants to put words in the mouths of soot sprites when he has never been a soot sprite.

I don't know that they ever talk. But here's a Miyazaki quote he said. Well, and that's actually really telling and damning. Miyazaki said at one point, I do not believe that I'm the kind of person who is scarred and makes that the theme of my movies or the manga that I make. But like, he also, that's like what like Joe Biden would say or whatever, where like Joe Biden's like, you know, no.

And I'm just like, this is your generation or whatever. Where Joe Biden's like, no, no. And I'm just like, this is your generation. You don't want to be like, now I'm talking about generations in this broad way, but like a younger generation who's a little more like, this is about me and this is about something I went through.

This is about the experience of my generation. He's just like, yeah, shut up. Draw the magic caterpillar. It'll make sense. Believe me, it's all in the suit. I have the stuff figured out. This stuff doesn't haunt me.

And I think there's an aspect of it too where Miyazaki wants the work to be the work. Of course. And I'm sure he knows. I mean, I'm not sure. I have no idea what Miyazaki thinks, but it feels like he is someone who has, based on all the stuff.

I thought of Biden just because they are almost exactly the same age, by the way. That's the only reason. Got it, got it, got it. Having read a bunch of, he's very acutely aware of how life and art combine, and he has these really interesting ideas about that handshake between them. But I feel like him saying that kind of stuff

also is him trying to keep the spotlight on the work. The way that he wants to express himself is through the work. Because he's not a salesman, but he is conscious of the way his work is being presented to the world. And he's trying to provide the context that he wants around it,

which is he actually kind of abhors the commercialization. He wants the work to exist as its own pure thing. But yeah, you get into these questions of like, is that him strategically wanting to put the frame around the movie that he wants? Or is this a guy who just like doesn't want

to have the conversation with himself about this stuff? I'm not saying one's more interesting or the other. We will never know the answer. But this movie feels so like him just stripping everything out of his chest. Well, this movie feels like the conversation, right? So like

a little bit of the background, which I think you've covered, I'm sure multiple times in the when you originally did this series, but to do a little refresher is that the sort of like bullet points of Miyazaki's life were that he grew up and in a pretty affluent situation. in a pretty affluent situation. After the earthquake, his grandfather started a company, a factory that makes airplane parts. I think it was engine bands for rudders, whatever, something like that. His father and uncle then sort of take over management of this factory.

The war happens, and they make a lot of money selling these airplane parts to the military as part of the war happens, and they make a lot of money selling these airplane parts to the military as part of the war effort. Boom times for that. Yes, and Miyazaki has a lot of conflicted feelings that he talks about in interviews about his upbringing because he grew up very affluent.

One of the things that is often referenced is that his family had a car and gasoline to run the car, which is something that was not normal at the time. And also when I say affluent, I sort of mean that in relationship to the other people around them at the time. And then when all of the bombings happened, his family left and I think went to his grandfather's estate, which is this sort of larger estate that had like a big garden that became the sort of inspiration, theoretically, for a lot of the sort of inspiration theoretically for a lot of um the sort of nature and stuff that popped up in his life but there's a moment that he's brought

up in interviews and i think it i think it's even in the documentary where he talks about kingdom of dreams yeah where they're driving away from the fire bombings in a truck with his family and another family stops in front of him and is like please take us with you right and it was like it's funny because in this one book they're talking about how miyazaki remembers that as a mom holding a baby and miyazaki's father just continues to drive right and miyazaki's a child has this like panic where he's like i should have said something right if maybe if i had said something my dad would stopped me. Surely we could have taken this family. Miyazaki's brother contends, I don't think it was a family.

I think it was like a guy or like... He's maybe sort of morphed the memory over the years. But he's brought this up in a degree that it clearly was impacting on... Wedged in his brain. Exactly. And then they're there. And then after the war's over, they return back to the city.

Miyazaki's mother was sick. She had spinal tuberculosis for nine years. And so she's in the hospital a lot. A lot of this is obviously Totoro and stuff, like the sick mother. Yes. And so these themes come up a ton in his movies. And because of that...

To be clear, she lived to a ripe old age. Yes, exactly. Yes. And then Miyazaki, as a kid, had this really deep love of airplanes and all this sort of mechanical stuff, but knowing that his family business was also supplying that for war efforts,

this thing that he thought was abhorrent and awful. And he has a complicated relationship with his father, who was... He's also growing up in the age where Japan completely demilitarizes, and the idea of the war is so horrifying to the next generation. Right. And there's the idea

that his dad was part of the generation of the modern man and modern war, sort of like these people that were trying to express different parts of themselves. And for Miyazaki, there's this huge conflict. I think there's a lot of cultural conflict between his, the traditional Japanese

and modern Japanese that, you know, that comes out in his work. This is in all Japanese cinema, too. It's like, post-war Japanese cinema. The key conflict in him

of, I look at this thing that my family builds as a form of art. I'm obsessed with the beauty and the engineering and the design of this thing. And it is made from a pure place.

The excitement of the pursuit of perfecting this thing. And then it goes out into the world and is used in a way that you cannot control. Right. And that's the themes that pop up in so much of his films

are this push and pull between the pursuit of beauty and the beauty of existence and how the allure of that beauty can cause such rift and trauma and conflict among people um and so what's interesting is that you know the wind rises with a film that it felt like everyone was like oh this is him reckoning with some of that very literally also felt like an elegaic movie about his legacy that he was you know bidding us goodbye with. It's also his

most literal grounded film. There's nothing else that comes close to that in terms of just how... Yeah. Not really. The big opening point was the

earthquake. For this movie movie it's literally what i just described right it's the first thing in the movie the first thing the movie is this element of his childhood so this is him telling the story and so i think it's really fascinating too because also comparing sort of him telling this i mean it's it's not literally because there's his mom didn't die yes and he wasn't then in this situation of like, his dad marrying his mom's sister and being like,

this is your new mom-ish. Anyway, I gotta go. You know, like, you know. What I think is interesting though is that that first two minutes of the firebombings happening and then his family having to, like all this stuff,

that is, seems related to his childhood. And then everything that comes from that point forward feels like these semiotic expressions of all the things that stemmed from that throughout his career, his life, everything. And there's also a really interesting context

to the making of this film that we can sort of dive into also of like how it all came to be. So... I feel like this is good. Let's lay out context and then, you know. So, recap the plot. That's five, ten minutes.

Yeah, exactly. So, one of the things that's interesting is that this film, after the wind rises, which was announced is probably going to be Miyazaki's final film.

We all braced for that. Which was the third time he had called a movie his final film. Right? Mononoke was the final film. Spirited Away was the final film. Or Howl was the final film.

Howl, yeah. Yeah. But because of the context of The Wind Rises, I think a lot of people tended to believe him this time because it was like a departure from a lot of what he had done. And it felt more... It felt the most final film-y in terms of the actual meat of it versus the other films where it felt a little more like,

I'm tired, I can't do this anymore. Yeah, and The Wind Rises ends with this theme that is like, you just have to live. Just go and live. Right, yeah, literally. Instead of being yelled at him. Yes, exactly. And this film sort of starts from that point of life

and then complicates that message because it almost feels like this is its own twist on that. But what's interesting, so this film is something that Miyazaki decides he wants to do. Right. Toshio Suzuki, Aisataka Hata passed away,

which was his longtime partner, creative partner, and... Sort of, yeah. Mentor to a certain degree. More kind of a pseudo-mentor and then kind of like a parallel partner. But was with him throughout his journey. Certainly.

Also, fair to say the only other sort of like fully developed A-tier filmmaker within the G-Bleez system. Which I think, I don't know. In the early stages. You and I disagree a little bit, maybe, and you obviously are coming to this with more proper context, but like,

the notion of, does Ghibli exist in any form after he's gone? Yes, yes. In that context, yes. Takahata's films can stand separately. And it was a proper bond. In a very major way.

Yeah. And, you know, he has passed away, though, between Wind Rises and this film. And Miyazaki was developing this film,

and originally the film was a film that was considered, you know, this is, a lot of this is Toshio Suzuki talking about it.

The producer of this film. Yes, and so, who knows how much of it. David's voice is quickly becoming full Super Dave Osborne. That's, you can't say that and so who knows how much of this is this is one person telling the story you

know what i mean um but originally developing this film this film was really about that friendship and about that mentorship and then when he passed away he was mourning that and then he really took that uncle character out of the story um okay and obviously this is there's uh the the book grand uncle you mean yes grand uncle was maybe supposed to be more woven in throughout because he only appears basically in the last 30 minutes 20 minutes and then apparently the heron became more of a character as the film was developed from that point forward but any the point being miyazaki says, I want to make this film. Suzuki,

on the record, says that he almost didn't want to greenlight it because he was like, I don't know how this could be possible because Miyazaki is getting older at this point. His eyesight is going away. He's a lot more tired. It's harder to get him to do things. And Miyazaki's process up until then

had been extremely... He had his hands involved in many steps of the process. So he would not only storyboard, but he would also do a lot of the key framing art. So that's like all of the major motions within shots. And then he would go through and he'd do a lot of really rigid corrections on people's work after they had done their animation

and sort of tried to interpret his work. He would try to allow himself to delegate things to other people. He would usually then be overcome with, I actually just need to do it myself and take this back or at least redirect it. Yeah. And he had, he also had a reputation of being a very difficult to work with boss and manager.

He was known for yelling. He was known for working until midnight. And if you did not also work till midnight, that was against the culture of the office and what they did. He's also just like an incredibly blunt man. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's the reason why so many of his interviews like linger around the Internet because you're just like no one talks this directly. And you imagine if you're working for him and he just says like this is bad, it lacks feeling. Yeah, exactly. All the time it starts to break your spirits uh absolutely um and i feel like there's a lot of animators that worked together throughout the history of anime um

and there's a lot of people that worked on mi Miyazaki's films and touched different parts of it. There's this one animator who's a very well-known animator, Toshiyuki Inoue, who has been an animator. He's not a director or anything like that. He's been solely an animator. But his first job was on Kiki's Delivery Service, and he only took it because Miyazaki wasn't directing it. And then when he showed up to work, they're like, oh, Miyazaki's directing it. And he was like, I wouldn't have taken this. Another thing that happened a couple of times of like,

this is a B project. Someone else can make this. And then Miyazaki's like, actually, I'm doing it. They're fucking it up. I'm taking over. Right. Yeah.

But Inui is really interesting because he does a lot of interviews and talks a lot about the process of making the film. More open. Yes, exactly. And so he does these beautiful interviews

where he's talking about the process of making this film. And what was so interesting was that this is the first film More open. process and that was Takeshi Honda right and Takeshi Honda is a famous animator of his own right um known for uh probably most notably like the Neon Genesis Evangelion sort of the work that he added to that but has a very different style than Miyazaki and because Miyazaki was getting to the point where he was older he was not able able to do the same level of extremely, extremely specific correction work. And because of that, this film ended up being this really interesting collaboration between all of these animators

that came back together again. Right, to kind of be the web around him. Yes. And so when you watch this film, what's really interesting, and Inouye does this great interview where he breaks down, oh, this is this person's scene. Oh, this is this person. Oh, this person did all of these things. And if you watch The

Boy and the Heron, there's a lot of stuff that doesn't look exactly Miyazaki-esque. And that's because number one, like Takeshi Honda has his own style that is very involved in this. And then also these animators who Miyazaki had worked with for years, than this and then also these animators who miyazaki had worked with for years you know off and on or that were just famous animators came back for this film together and because miyazaki was at this stage where he could not work as quickly oftentimes they just did their work on their own with very little correction what's it's a more extreme version of like when when elderly live action filmmakers are making a late period film and the insurance company demands

that there is a backup director on set and you have like Paul Thomas Anderson shadowing on Perry Home Companion or Guillermo del Toro on Kane Mutiny Court Marshall. But those guys are just like, this is fun for me that I get to watch them more. I assume I'm never going to have to do anything. People love to theorize about their contributions, but those guys are always like, I'm treating this as a free film school.

He's clearly ready to take this movie on himself. Whereas animation involves so many more tendrils. And this movie goes on for seven years. Yes. That he really does start to have to for the first time in his life accept other people taking the torch on certain things. But like what you're describing is the work of a director of an animated film.

Usually. What happened on this movie is how it should be. The normal process. Exactly. Like it's totally obvious to delegate like a lot of that process. Richard Williams is like the only other guy in history who worked. He's never stressed out. Like Miyazaki work and Richard Williams is like the only other guy in history who worked He's never stressed out. like Miyazaki work

and Richard Williams like couldn't ever fucking finish his stuff. He's making movies that people can see because they've never done. Which you have to imagine when you talk about

the nerves and green lighting in this film that they're just like this is Thief in the Cobbler. This is never gonna get done. But what's different I would say

is that this is a fully hand-drawn 2D animated film which we have very few of in the modern era. In general. Well, more in Japan. Yes. But in American animation, when you're referring to this, how animated films are made,

well, not as much anymore because so much is computer-driven. But then also, the hand-drawn animation, like, stuff that is done now, is done with such a finite rubric of, here's the exact rubric of here's the exact character models, here's the exact

how we do this, here's what this person looks like, and all the da-da-da. And because of how this process unfolded and Miyazaki's age and all that stuff

and how much he had to hand over to Honda to take over a lot of this stuff and how much they just let animators do a thing, there are sections

of this film that look and feel different than other sections of the film. It becomes an interesting collage. That will probably feel more obvious. There are sections of this film that look and feel different than other sections of the film. It becomes an interesting collage. That will probably feel more obvious. And the look of characters changes

throughout the film. It's like really fascinating. There's like a guy inside of him. Yeah, exactly. One animator just put a guy inside the heron. I don't think you're right about that. I've only seen it the one time. Sometimes he's a bird. Sometimes there's like a guy inside. If that happened in the movie, I would have noticed it. David! Yeah? It's that time in the movie, I would have noticed it. David! Yeah!

It's that time of the year. What's up? That time of the year that comes around several times a month. We love it. When Mubi sponsors the podcast. Mubi! Mubi! Mubi! Mubi! We like them. We like them. They're good. They're good. David, we're happy to do any Mubi. Yeah. Ad read? Sure. It's always a pleasure.

Love those guys. It's particularly exciting when Mubi has a new film they are distributing. Yes. That we get to. They put things in theaters now over at Mubi.com. Our stinky little fingers at. You know, they are a streaming service that's curated, dedicated to elevating great cinema from around the globe. But they also.

Passages, Decision to Leave, a lot of great movies we've covered. Sure. Well. And a movie that is one of my most anticipated movies of the year that you have seen and texted me almost immediately

this is a real griff movie yeah this is a big time griff movie it just came out I haven't gotten the chance to see it yet

I'm dying to it's Fallen Leaves the new film new film from Finnish master Aki Kurismaki it films like

Outside of Hope and La Havre La Havre and you know A Man Without a Past Stalagrave Cowboys yes Master, Aki Kurizmaki Hit films like Outside of Hope and Le Havre, Le Havre and A Man Without a Past Stonger Cowboys Yes, all those ones

Did we put that on the bracket? I think we did once Fallen Leaves is his new film It's a timeless, hopeful, satisfying love story It won the jury prize at the 23 Cannes Film Festival It's set in modern day Helsinki It's about two lonely souls Al-Ansa and of the 23 Cannes Film Festival. Okay, it's set in modern-day Helsinki.

It's about two lonely souls, Ansa and Holapa. Leningrad cowboys. Yeah, yeah. Okay, look. I had to catch myself on that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You threw me there. They have a chance of meeting

a local karaoke bar, and then there's a bunch of hurdles. And this is going to sound like no big deal. Oh, lost phone numbers, mistaken addresses, a bunch of hurdles. And this is going to sound like no big deal. Oh, lost phone numbers, mistaken addresses, a charming stray dog. But he makes all of these little happenings uproariously funny in that great mordant Finnish way. Is it fair to say he's one of those filmmakers who makes movies unlike anyone else on the planet? He has a tone, a look, a style.

All to himself. A humor. I think reflective of his country, but maybe the best version of theirs is humor or whatever. He doesn't really make bad movies. They are all 82 minutes long and they all rule. But this I do think is a special one, even by his standard.

I'm so excited. It's going to be on my top 10 of the year for sure. Fallen Leaves is now playing only in theaters. Visit MUBI.com slash Fallen Leaves to see show times and get tickets. That's MUBI.com slash Fallen Leaves is now playing only in theaters. Visit MUBI.com slash Fallen Leaves to see Show of Times and get tickets. That's MUBI.com slash Fallen Leaves. And also, of course, for a limited time, you can try MUBI free for 30 days

at MUBI.com slash blank check. That's MUBI.com slash blank check for a month of great cinema for free. Yeah, Fallen Leaves isn't playing in a theater near you. It will be coming to MUBI soon. This film ended up being an interesting collage of all these great animators who i think there's a funny element to it also i don't know this to be true but in some of the vendors assembled situation in some of the interviews that i read i think i get this energy so this is me doing a

little bit of fan fan casting right now but i think this is there a little bit where miyazaki does not trust that many people. He has a very high bar of accomplishment and I think has to be sold on certain animators being allowed

to work on his films. Yeah. And so I think he has this sort of this group of people that are like these like, you know,

young upstart animators that he's like, I trust this person. I can have this person come back. Those animators are all now in their 60s and extremely accomplished famous animators.

You put young upstart in air quotes. Yeah. They are extremely accomplished animators of their own right that have their own careers. But to Miyazaki, it sort of feels like that. Like, yeah, these are the young guys. Come help me out. I don't know if that's exactly true,

but there's that energy that's there. And so a lot of these people came together. A lot of the... There's a handful of people that energy that's there. And so a lot of these people came together. A lot of the... There's a handful of people that are part of that realist anime sort of generation. The people who did Akira and Jinra and all these movies that have a lot more realism and volumetric animation,

whereas Miyazaki's work is so bubbly and round and expressive and doesn't do that. And so this film has a lot of elements that are not Miyazaki elements. They're Miyazaki stories and frames and storyboard moments, but then these animators take them and sort of express them in their own way.

There's even, what's the aunt's name? Yeah, Natsuko. In the movie? Yes. Yes, yes. There's even, what's the aunt's name? Yeah, Natsuko. In the movie? Yes. Yes, yes. She's one of the first characters ever in a Miyazaki film that was not designed by Miyazaki.

That was a character designed by Takeshi Honda because they're all like, Miyazaki's not great at adult women. What do you mean? Like, and there are- Jessica with her giant boobs,

which she always talks about. I'm trying to think of adult women actually because it's funny because he's the most the most iconic animator of young female characters yes

like he's there's no animator who's better known for like his plucky little girls right but there's not a lot of adult women in this one interview they referenced

the female lead in Porco Rosso right but just like seems a little off. Something's a little off with that. Well, let's try to take an inventory, David. Who are the characters you have in posters on your wall surrounded by paper mache hearts?

Yeah, wait a second. He designed the hottest woman in the world. Yeah, wait. Actually, can you just show us your phone background? Okay, so yeah, there's Porco Rosso. There's Nausicaa. No, Sosuke's mom is, you know, the number one woman in the world.

So they're wrong. But so they talk about how Takeshi Honda just basically was like, I'm going to do the whole character sheet for this character. So I love that this film ends up being a pastiche because also... Pastiche isn't the word. You mean like a patchwork?

Yes, not a pastiche. It's the baton being handed off between different animators. No, what you're saying is beautiful. That like, whether by hook or by crook, like Miyazaki allowed a little more support and collaboration because of his age and because of, you know, circumstances. Support isn't in the word.

It sounds like he extended trust in a way he had not really before. Well, yeah. Because when you even talk about the young, quote unquote, young upstart animators that he does trust, he had not really before. Well, yeah. Because when you even talk about the young, quote-unquote, young upstart animators that he does trust, he trusts them to do the exact thing he wants

rather than incubating their own development, if that makes sense, which is why most of them left and went off and did their own thing and didn't look back for however much reverence they may have for him and his work.

It's like, well, but I was, I was functioning as a finger on his hand. Right. Well, that's like Takeshi Handa was going to do

a new Evangelion thing and was like, all right, if Miyazaki calls though, you have to answer the phone. You have to kind of do that. Sure. Another great example is

Katsuya Kondo was the animation director on Ponyo. And I think he did a lot of the characters on Keys Delivery Service. I think he has a lot more of this sort of like light expressive style to him. There are sequences that apparently in this film, Miyazaki just let him do it and like didn't do any corrections. It was just like, yeah, that's fine. Let that go.

He said, go off King. Yeah. It's fine. Let that go. And he said, go off king. Yeah. Which is crazy. Exactly. You dropped this. And then he sent an emoji of a little guy. And then, yeah, Kondo went into Miyazaki's office and Miyazaki was just head down in a dab. He solemnly took off his glasses,

looked down and said, we have no choice but to stand. That's everything that happened. But I think that's really, so one of the things that I love in films, right? I'm just actually picturing Miyazaki in his green apron. Just cigarette. You know,

that shot where they're doing the like interview uh interview in front of the miyazaki museum and then he just sort of like workman like walks through the background yes what if it's just in the middle of like walking just stops it does a quick dab flips a water bottle yes um anyways no bits um no bits no bits but i will say the themes of this film are about legacy and passing down and what can we pass down what of our imperfections are permanent what are the things

that we hold on to what are the things that we can resolve and what of those imperfect and perfect aspects of the world that we build can we hand down to the next generation

and I think what's so beautiful about this film is that the film is an art object that is that also yes it's right these are all animators that came up um either working for takahata or miyazaki or other great people that are sort of all sort of interconnected and now he's at a point where he cannot physically do all of this stuff on his own and so his only option is to pass the baton down to these animators and ask them to step in. And they are not going to do exactly what he did. It's going to be different.

And that's okay. The fucking shapes will be in a different arrangement. Exactly. And it might not be exactly what Miyazaki would have done if it was just him. And it might look different. The characters might change. There's a big thing about their noses are sort of different based on what animator is doing. But that's part of the passing down of art, right? And looking at this film as this art object, I think there's something interesting about final films.

Here's a question that I don't know the answer to that I'm curious if you guys can think of. What filmmakers do we have that got to make a final film? Consciously? Yes. Like, deliberately? That it was announced that this is their final film, and it was. Well, this is the whole Tarantino thing, is being like, make your final film with intentionality,

make your final film with intentionality even if he's like capping it decades earlier than he would need to so you don't end up with an accidental final film that is whatever you know it's a good question who actually called their shot and it was that because so many people

unretire is sort of a final film I think like but like I think even with stuff like that where it's like David Lean was old and had been in retirement and then was like, okay, I'm going to make this. I don't know if he was actually like,

this is it, bitch. The mic is dropped. Right. People don't usually do that because you'll end up looking like Miyazaki where you're coming out of retirement and sort of embarrassed and like, I know I said I wasn't going to do this anymore,

but here I am. And that's what's going to happen to one Quentin Tarantino oh it's absolutely going to happen but Terrence Davies a couple times was like I'm walking off the court but Terrence Davies was someone who had to push every movie uphill so hard that he's probably also in the press cycle like I fucking can't do this anymore you know

there are a lot of those guys I mean Schrader is very much in that phase right now where he's like, look, between the state of the industry and my health, every time he's promoting a new movie,

he's like, maybe that was the last one. But he's also like, I'm going to make another one if they let me. Right, but rarely is it this thing where people go,

they take their pause and they go, and this is going to be this final film. And I'm designing it as my final statement to some degree. Yeah, there are movies like A Prairie Home Companion. Which I going to be this final film. And I'm designing it as my final statement to some degree. Now, there are movies

like A Prairie Home Companion. Which I think is a great final film. Right. It's easy to read into that, like, this is someone who probably knows this is it. But he was actively prepping another film.

He sure was, because he's a grumpy little munchkin. Yeah. No, I mean, he, before that... I was really waiting to see what that last word was.

He's also a very tall man. Little munchkin. He was like your size. All right, he's a tall... I was really waiting to see what that last word was. He's also a very tall man. Little munchkin. He was like your size. All right, he's a tall man, but you cannot deny that there are parts of old Altman that are a little munchkin-like. Like a munchkin isn't the word I would use. David Sims, The Atlantic.

Yeah. Grumpy, certainly. No, but that was, you know, he won his Lifetime Achievement Oscar, right? He talks like this, you know. I don't think that's what he sounded like. You're still sounding like Schrader. In my head, he's just like this little bridge troll, you know?

This is all Schrader stuff to me. Well, fine. He won his Lifetime Achievement Oscar. He gave this whole speech of like, I had a heart transplant five years ago. I've never disclosed it because I didn't want to be uninsurable. And that means I have another 20 years of directing left in me. In Prairie Home,

he was like, here we go. I'm obviously in a late stage looking back, reflecting, thinking about death. But like, next movie, Hands on a Hard Body. He was supposed to make

Hands on a Hard Body. It was cast. It was prepped. He died. And yeah, so it's like that's a great final statement movie, but he was rejecting that fully.

They usually do because it's annoying. Right. But here's the thing that I will also posit is I think the idea of a final film or a final artwork is actually more of a romantic and philosophical idea than is it ever something that

sees the light of day in real life. Because I also think that final works, I think people want them to be, oh, the grand perfection of this person, the final message that we're going to be left. But I think actually final works, especially if they occur in your end of life, are transitional. Yes. Someone's career is not an essay that has a concluding sentence. It is a

stream of human existence that transitions somewhere. And the final film is the last bullet point, the last data point of transition that we have. But it's not going to be the thing that summarizes the entirety of a career. Wind Rises was him attempting to do that.

And then he wakes up the next morning after it's done and released and is like, fuck, I have new thoughts. Right. You know,

I mean, I'm not basing that on anything other than that's how human beings exist. Right. You know, and like, as you said,

David, it's like, what else is this guy going to fucking do? this guy can't stop expressing himself artistically as long as he has

the means and the wherewithal to manifest it in any way. I mean, first he made a little movie about a caterpillar and then, yeah. I mean, I am in a phase in my life which is, I think, kind of like one of the more tired phases that people go through where you have young children and you're just kind of like run ragged.

You seem full of beans today. I am full of beans. And I had a burrito yesterday, I'll have you know. Okay, so he's literally full of beans. And let's put that in the episode notes we should um david's full of burrito beans but um uh you know you have that fantasy of like what if someone came to me tomorrow and was like you won't have to work another day in your life here's whatever that's taken care of. Now you get to go retire. You know, you can garden and cook and experience great art and travel. And, you know, would I like that?

I'd probably take it being like, hell yeah. And then like six months in, am I like, the fuck do you do? Okay, this has been fun, but now I want to return to, you know, creating or whatever, whatever it is. I do it myself. Yeah.

And I think that's... That beard is so crazy. I was waiting for you to... Well, you came in later. I already cut you off, Mike. Wow. That's neither here nor there. JD has a beard. It's just different. I mean, I've known you for like...

Almost 15 years now, perhaps? I've known you for 10. And you walked into the Angelica yesterday, and I was shocked. I've never even seen a hint of a beard before. I mean, talk about transitional stages and big statements from major artists. I was about...

J.D. Amato has started a new era. I'm on a local competitive running team, the Hellgate Red Runners, and one of my teammates, Andrew Gorman, accused me of being a coward for never attempting to grow a beard. And I said that I don't think I could grow a beard. And he said, you can. You're just a coward. And so

then I have attempted to grow a beard and... Succeeded. Yeah. I think he was right. I was a coward. I think a lot of people who say they can't grow a beard are, you know, right. More just like, well, they're weak. It's more a thing of like, well, I don't like those first two weeks where it

looks shitty. And it looks bad and it feels bad. It does feel kind of bad. It feels terrible. Alright, The Boy and the Heron. So it's about a boy but it's not Chris Weitz is about a boy. It's not about a boy. And Paul co-directed that one

let's give credit where credit is but is there any more context you want to get into before we discuss the plot of the film the one thing that I'll say that I think is interesting obviously it's also inspired by a book called How Do You Live which was the original working title

which the Japanese title assumed it was going to be more of a direct adaptation those fools because every adaptation he's ever done i mean how's is like maybe the most faithful adaptation of the work he's done and it's still obviously a departure and then there's stuff like wind rises where he's like it's sort of inspired by this book but it's also about this real guy but the events happening this real guy happened to another guy in this book right you're like what ponyo he's like i called the character sosuke after this book the gate which is this like

masterpiece of japanese literature i read the gate it's about this couple who are like can't have kids it has nothing to do with ponyo except they like live on a hill started as little mermaid right well ponyo has a lot of little mermaid right it also has like wagner in it like it's got all kinds of weird shit a The couple in that book love him. They do. They do love him. It's just, I read this book,

knowing obviously that it would not be about a little boy and a little girl who loves him. But like, where I was like, it's this like stunning, quiet book about this couple who can't have kids. And then later you realize like, oh, they both,

this relationship was the product of affairs. Yeah. And they feel guilty. It's like written in 1900. Mm-hmm. And it's just so funny to think of miyazaki being like i shall call this six-year-old in short pants so skate after that book of you know no relation anyway um no i i was reading that the sales of uh how do you live have gone like through the roof in Japan because people are looking for clues or understanding but the book itself is

an element of the film and that the lead character has the book. Did you read this book? I did not read that book. You read a lot of books. I also watched Future Boy Conan. Oh sure. I've never seen that. It finally was because it was unavailable here for a while, right?

I believe it still is, but I got it through other means. What? I thought GKids maybe either announced they're about to release it or just didn't release it. I had someone offer it to me, and I accepted,

and the way that I saw it did not have any English around it, so I did not understand fully the words that they were saying, but it's a show that you don't necessarily need the words to fully understand. I don't know. Is Andy Richter in it? Yes. In the year 2000.

That's why they call it Future Boy Conan. I will say after we watched The Boy and the Heron, I went home and I re-put on the pilot, like the first episode and I like, I cried again.

Because it is, watching this film, and then seeing where he came from, and it felt like, you know, like in like, Toy Story 2,

when they watch like, the Woody's Roundup TV show, or whatever, and you're like, oh, the joy and simplicity of where it all began, and like,

now where he is, is this old, or, can I just say it? Woody's Roundup looks like it sucks that's so fucking wrong having been made to watch Toy Story 2 so many times recently he's trying to start another dumb animation nerd he was angry that this episode

don't put me on team Griffin on this one I might be on team David for this one some guy named Will Vint Woody's Roundup looks like a great fucking show Critters yeah the Critters. Yeah, the Critters. Prospector.

He puts his butt on the dynamite to try to... That part's pretty funny. Blown out. I don't know if I'm putting too much weight on this in the context of the thing. But especially with you talking about his... Ben, am I just laughing at you saying that? That's nine years of working with Griffin.

Okay. What are you putting too much weight on? No, you're talking a lot about the, quote-unquote, the younger generation of animators who came back for this movie, right? Who were sort of the children of Miyazaki, but all left and went off and did their own thing. A lot of them continued working on Miyazaki films.

Hardly young people at this point to be clear. They're all their own. I put in air quotes. Well, you can't hear air quotes. I said the quotes. I said the quotes. The Goro of it I do think is interesting in this movie

and him sort of reckoning with what is the thing I've built and what happens to it when I'm gone. Because Goro is the one who has stayed. And whereas these other guys, even when they have come back and worked on Miyazaki, am I taking something that you want to get to? No, I want to do a bit, but I'm not going to do it. You said no bit. We're not doing it. We're not doing it. We're not doing it. Those guys found new means of Yeah. And am I wrong in thinking that this sort of narrative around Goro is like,

he is trying very hard to uphold the legacy and it is not quite hitting. Yes. This movie has a fail son in it too, sort of. I don't know. Who would you consider the fail son in this movie? The dad, kind of. Oh, sure.

And like, I watched it, and I... You can't not think about Goro Miyazaki for a second, and usually I just kind of put it aside, because I'm like, it's too simple, you know, and I shouldn't, you know, read into this relationship. But it is true that Goro Miyazaki exists, bears the Miyazaki family name, directs animated films, and they are all mediocre.

Yes. I don't know what to make of that. I don't know if his father agrees, but every time you read about his father's opinions on his son's movies, he's always like, he worked hard. I can tell. It's always like this sort of like very vague statement.

But he's trying so hard to be like, I can crack what a Ghibli movie is versus these guys who are like, maybe I'm taking what I learned from working there and expressing this in a different way, my own prism at a different place, whatever it is. I do think it's like similar to the Pixar problem

that has really come to the surface of like, Lasseter built a dream team of all his fucking CalArts compatriots and lured them all over to him and then never established a next generation below him. Right. A classic him. Right. A classic thing that... Totally.

You know, yeah. And Lasseter, on top of that, started getting aggressively bad at making films himself in a way... And aggressively good at hugging. Great at hugging. Incredible at hugging. But in a way that Miyazaki didn't,

where it's like his eyes off the ball entirely and Pixar exists in this weird state where they're like, we're now trying to do the work that needed to be done 20 years ago and finding the Domi Shis and finally giving them a boost rather than like years of them losing directors because they're like they're never

going to let me make what I want my way here I have to go off and do something somewhere else but I think that's an aspect that this film is addressing totally that's why I'm bringing this up. I think it is a very... The building of the tower

is when I got really locked into like... Right. But I think there is this belief that everything needs to be passed down and remain the same. Ah, Studio Ghibli needs to remain the same. Who's going to take over that mantle? And I think the answer that this film,

both in how it is made and what the film is saying, is that you don't need to hand down the exact replica. You add but a small piece to the thing and then that goes off.

So all these animators that worked with Miyazaki, they've all gone on to make other films and other stuff. That's the next generation. You don't need someone to just step into Ghibli.

Right, right. And that's why I think also it's interesting because people also often try to, I don't need someone to just step into Ghibli and that's why I think also it's interesting because people also often try to I don't know people have the dumb comparison where they're like oh Ghibli's like you know it's the Disney of Japan it's like it's not it's not because Disney

is a multi you know armed like conglomerate that yeah has tendrils in every part of life and Ghibli's not like that at all yeah but here's something I found very interesting and I don't know if I just missed that this hasrils in every part of life and Ghibli's not like that at all. But here's something I found very interesting. And I don't know if I just missed that this has been in previous films and I hadn't caught it,

but it felt new to me. In the end credits, there is a full block of merchandising development team. There is a block of the Ghibli Park team. Well, they've got the Ghibli Park now, but they've always had merch, or at least for a long time but that does it's not usually a thing I think that gets credited in the film I'm not

saying it's unusual that they have merchandising it felt like a more explicit acknowledgement and even the streaming thing I remember talking the guy who runs G kids in 2019 when we were doing this series and he was like they will never be streaming right he likes the sanctity of it needing to be a deliberate choice and engagement with a screening at a, you know, when they do the Ghibli Fest every year, or buying the one disc or whatever it is. And then a year later, they announced

HBO Max is getting all the Ghibli movies, and they're also creating these sound and image scapes and all this sort of stuff. And all of this was just like, you know what, Miyazaki, if you're gonna finish this movie, you have to make some concessions because this project is going slowly,

getting more and more expensive. We're not getting money in from other areas. This is the only thing we're all working on. We need to open the doors a little bit. And there's this, like,

chunk in the credits of acknowledging tendrils of the company that are not direct expressions of this movie, but are the direct expressions of this movie but are the things that allowed this movie to stay in production for seven years but that's still that's nothing like this i'm not saying it is right yeah yeah you're having an argument with

a disney guy who what you are having an argument with a disney guy that was not the point i was making scrappy the cat you're arguing with scrappy Well, sure. But I'm addressing the point you made. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Disney's a company that makes like $90 billion a year. Yes. That's a lot of money. And they are not... Like, Jubilee is not a company that makes $1 billion a year. No.

Like, yeah. It is a small concern, but... And despite the name, it is not a company that is about one creator, Disney. Right? Right. It just isn't that. Walt's still there. He's just got to go deep. This is the point I'm trying to make

is that Disney is like we find a way to monetize every element of what we do, right? And to pump it out into all quarters. And Ghibli's thing has always been we strategically with a tremendous amount of control

make the deals and the expansions that allow us to continue making our movies. We don't need growth quarter over quarter. We don't need to outdo ourselves. It's just enough to keep the lights on and maintain the same size. And the last seven years have been them accepting more of that.

Which doesn't feel like them trying to take over the world. They get a lot of shit for it. People have criticized the park especially. But it's all truly, this movie doesn't get finished if they don't do it. It finally got to this point. You have this environmental message that runs through your movies. Like, why are you building a

fucking theme park? That's so contrary. Everyone who's been to the theme park is like, it's really a park. It's not that much of a theme park. It's philosophically so different than what we think of. And I'd love to go. Yeah. I also think there's a... I don't know Miyazaki's actual opinion on this.

He might have spoken to it on an interview somewhere. I don't remember what it exactly is. But I would not be shocked if he is not concerned about the legacy of Ghibli after he goes. He's definitely not. He's spoken on this extensively. Yeah. In that he's just like, it doesn't matter. Ghibli's just a dumb name. What do I need

to do to get this movie done? But also, maybe this thing doesn't need to exist past me. There's a fun anecdote from when I was in college. I was at, I went to film school and I minored in computer science. Humble brag. Jesus Christ. We get it. You minored in computer science. Humble brag. Jesus Christ. We get it.

You minored in computer... No, go ahead. Sorry. David, come on. Go on. Sorry, I minored in computer science. David hates computer scientists. Computers.

David's an anti-computer. David never has a laptop in front of him when recording. And is actively scrolling and typing something. I'm trying to find this Miyazaki quote. Okay. I know it's in my Tumblr? I'm trying to find this Miyazaki quote. Okay. I know it's in my Tumblr, so I have to load my Tumblr. You still have a Tumblr? I mean, it exists. Like, it hasn't been updated since 2015.

Do you want to promote it? Do you want to promote the Tumblr? DavidSimms.Tumblr.com. Wow. No L? No L, which means I really must have made it a long time ago. Well, we're not. No L? No bits.

Christmas-themed Tumblr. So when I was in college, because I spanned those two departments, NYU connected me. MoMA had reached out to NYU and said, we need help. We have a whole

digital art wing of moma but our um and this was you know back in the the 20 thoughts what do you call that yeah um they're like we don't really have our preservation department is not robust yet in terms of our digital artwork. And so they wanted students to come in and to be the go-between between artists and MoMA to figure out how to take any of their work that used computer programming or digital stuff to figure out a preservation strategy to hold on to this for years. And one of the first things they told us when they sat us down is they were like, first things first, when you talk to the artist, the artist will tell you that one of the things they think is beautiful about this work of art is that it will one day

fall apart and cease to work. That is wonderful for them, the artist. We have just spent $200,000 on this work of art. We are a museum. We do not share that opinion. Yeah. So no matter how much the artist tells you that this thing falling apart and dying at a certain point is beautiful and wonderful, that is not your job. Right. And I think about that a lot because almost everyone

that I know as, you know, working professionally in this industry as a writer and director and all this stuff, like, I do like to move forward.

And when I move on from something, I'm like, yes, if that disappeared, that's okay. Not from the universe, but like, I want like, yes, if that disappeared, that's okay. Not from the universe, but I want to continue moving forward.

And the fact that these things have lifespans is interesting to me. So with something like Miyazaki, there is sometimes this feeling that people are like, oh, what's the legacy going to be? How does this continue to go? And the answer is, it doesn't. Who gives a shit?

Can I read you the quote? Someone has, yeah. Someone has a career arc. Yeah. And that is it.'t who gives a shit can i read you the quote someone has yeah someone has a career arc yeah and that is that is it that's the the lifespan i believe this is from kingdom of dreams and madness pretty much it's from one of the documentaries about him someone asks him aren't you worried about the studio's future and he says this is translated future is clear it's going to fall apart i can already see it what's the the use worrying? It's inevitable. Puts on sunglasses. Ghibli is just a random name I got from an airplane. It's only a name.

Then he looks out at some trees and says, how pretty. I mean, it's classic Miyazaki. I mean, obviously. And it's also, what's so beautiful about that is it's everything we said where it's like,

it's both, that's how he feels, but then I'm also like, but I also don't believe him. It's a little bit of an act or a persona that he has. This movie's metaphor is right the world's worst jenga tower that includes spheres like objects that you cannot stack upon it's non-euclidean and this kid keeps on pushing back on like not even you're giving me pieces that

are fucking bullshit right you basically gave me like a misfit. You gave me cursed pieces. It's the actual, it's like, these are cursed. These are from tombs. Yes. Man, this movie is wild. And you're just like, maybe this just needs

to topple over. It's actually kind of unhealthy that it has stayed up this long. Yeah. So that's a long way of saying the last piece of context before we talk

about actually getting to the plot of it. When asked, Miyazaki was like, I don't really even know what every aspect of this film is about, which I think is the best type of art. Correct. When theaki was like, I don't really even know what every aspect of this film is about, which I think is the best type of art.

When the artist is like, I don't know, but I'm being summoned to create these images. I'm summoned to tell this story. I cannot tell you what it exactly means. Here is what it is. It's no good if they can tell you exactly what it means anyway, right? Yes. You want a little bit of mystery. Beyond that, I mean, talking about

people lying in interviews strategically, sometimes it's just like, I don't want to little bit of mystery. Beyond that, I mean, talking about people lying in interviews strategically, sometimes it's just like, I don't want to feed it to people. The thing is not functioning properly if I'm preloading into people's heads how they need to process it. There are artists who are like, look, it's there if you want to figure it out. But there aren't too many artists who are like, let me tell you what I was trying to do. Now it happens.

I would disagree. I think there are today too many artists who try to do that me tell you what I was trying to do. Now it happens. I would disagree. I think there are today too many artists who try to do that. Maybe there's too much of that going on. Well, it drives me nuts about the Kubrick stuff where it's like, actually the carpet means that He's yelling at us.

And it's like, no, this... He doesn't build movies that way. Yes, and that's the whole purpose of semiotics, right? It's the stuff gets, it gets baked into us as creators and it comes out in ways that we don't even know. And it does have meaning, but

that meaning doesn't only exist if there is an intentionality and a didactic point that is trying to be made through those elements. Can I say, before we talk about the boy in the hair, just one other thing. Our 15th time saying we're about to start talking about it. My daughter is watching more and more

stuff as she grows. And we've watched, she's gotten 15th time saying we're about to start talking about it. My daughter is watching more and more stuff. She grows. And we've watched, she's gotten obsessed with two Pixar shorts. One is Bao. To my utter surprise, she over and over again wants to watch this story of... He's a little food baby. Yeah.

A little food baby, but also, of course, an immigrant parent dealing with her son growing up and changing and marrying a white woman. And also about her consuming her food baby, like, you know, fucking Neptune or whoever, you know, from mythology. My daughter just watches it and is, like, loving it.

She also likes Jack Jacketite. We talked about this. She also loves La Luna. Oh, interesting. The one by the guy who then does Luca, which she calls Moon and Stars. Anyway, you mentioned Dummy She a while back. Yeah.

You know, 20 minutes ago. Boy and the Heron is the movie we should talk about, though. Right? Yes. 1943, right? Yes. What a time. The war is afoot.

World War II. Is happening. Yes. There are firebombings happening in Japan. And our film opens with 12-year-old Mahito experiencing a firebombing in his hometown. Tokyo. And right away, his father announces that his mother's hospital is on fire. Yes.

And he's running into the fire. And the fire overwhelming the frame, like, overwhelming the frame. And the father runs out and then I think there's a really beautiful moment where we see Mahito want to run off and then return

and then we watch him as he changes clothes. Yeah. And then he runs out and by that point, it's all a fire universe that he enters into. It's very overwhelming,

especially given that, like you, I'm watching this movie with barely any understanding of what the movie is going to be. Yeah. And it's this very jarring, upsetting beginning that does kind of feel like, unlike other Miyazaki movies. Yeah. They do not usually have beginnings this sort of visceral. And there's a freneticism too

and a specificity to the images that feels very both Miyazaki, but also there's an edge to it that is not totally Miyazaki that feels more like other anime. Like it's very interesting right off the top. The fire itself feels very Akira. And I forget the term you used of just the move towards realism that happened in the 80s, but just like there is an intensity there that feels

more realistic than the sort of expressionistic thing he usually does. Yeah. And then the film jumps to a year later. Yes. It's a year later. His father has remarried his wife's younger sister. Yes. It's a year later. His father has remarried

his wife's younger sister. Yes, which it takes in very classic Miyazaki sort of form. You sort of glean through words that that's what's happening. And you're like, wait, that's his

mom's sister. Kind of old-fashioned biblical notion of, right, you know, like if, you know, you lose this person, you can marry someone else in the family. Or a classic Bogdanovich notion.

Yeah, and I think Peter B., he pulled that one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course he did. It's like the Bible. I don't know why my Peter Bogdanovich impression is Lorne Michaels. Go on. There's a really visceral moment to me very early in the film that like i cued into which is um you know obviously we know that the idea of ma the moment between moments that miyazaki talks about a lot these

spaces between moments are what defines a miyazaki film to me in a lot of ways and there's one early on here where um uh we're introduced to the new home that he's going to be in once his family has fled more towards the countryside. And he enters the home and then he goes into a bed. And it's like his new bed. And he has a moment where he just sits in the bed and then just topples over to the side and just closes his eyes. And it's just laying there in this sort of like prone, uncomfortable position. And it's like, to me, such a visceral moment of grief. That grief being this thing that comes in these waves. And I know those moments well where you're just...

And I remember watching the film and think about this. He's laying on this like patterned blanket. And I'm like, I know that feeling so well of going through something that is traumatic and being somewhere new and being like, this isn't mine. This pattern is meant to amuse and it's not mine. It's not for me, but it's trying to comfort me in this moment. And right now I'm just going to lay my head down. Even all of this is so foreign. It not none of this is mine but in this moment this is where i have to rest and where i have to find comfort in this thing that is so

foreign to me and it's like this really beautiful moment that again i feel like other filmmakers might focus on the big feelings of all of that sure and miyazaki is like no it's these moments between like him putting on the clothes to go help his dad put out the fire at the hospital. It's like, that's a moment that as a kid you would think back on and go, oh, but maybe if I had already been in the right clothes, maybe I could have gotten there and done something. It's like you get locked into these moments that are so specific and small. And I think... Well, even just, you talk about the thing with him in the car, seeing the family. Yeah. And like living with that. If I had said something, there was a split second of a decision.

You never stop reliving, even though it is fixed. And you can never know if the outcome would have changed. And it's all in your own head. Yeah. It's all... Yes, exactly.

Because that's not how life works. Time just keeps going. Yeah. Which is part of the theme of what the movie goes on to tell you. And what's interesting is I think there's a lot of talk about how Miyazaki storyboarded this straight ahead, right?

So just like chronologically. And so the first chunk of the film has more Miyazaki influence. He was more actively involved because once he completed that, he went back and started, all right, I'm going to go correct animation. I'm going to go draw some key frames and dive in there. he was more actively involved because once he completed that, he went back and started, all right, I'm going to go correct animation.

I'm going to go draw some key frames and dive in there. And that's when they're like, Jesus Christ, this will never be done. Yes, there's talk about how in the past it had been 10 minutes of film per month. Right. And this current process, they were producing one minute of film per month.

Because I think this movie was originally announced in 2017 for a 2020 release timed to the Olympics that didn't end up happening that year. And in 2020, they announced it is like 30% done.

Yeah. In the year that most people thought it would be finished. And the last three years since then have been very touch and go. Yeah.

And they weren't really communicating. I mean, especially with them not revealing information about the movie in terms of the marketing. They also were being very cagey about the timeline of it progressing. Well, it was one of the first things where they said, there's no timeline. Right. We're just going to let this film move ahead at whatever pace it needs to move ahead. And apparently, the work from home stuff with COVID actually helped them because animators could go work independently without him hovering over their

shoulders well because it's just not possible so then we're introduced to very soon after what audience my audience really you could feel the relief coming through them when the four little ladies show up they're like okay

we're in here's the lady isn't it like eight of them when the four little ladies show up. They're like, okay, we're in... Here's the ladies. Isn't it like eight of them at the beginning? There's always four. There are four maids credited in the cast. I mean, there's a bunch of them. Can I tell you that my... When they came on screen, my first instinct, I had two things that they reminded me of.

Number one, the Cenobites. And number two, the killer comes from outer space. In the sense that it was like oh there's like the short round one there was like the tall one with the weird long face and

we're all yeah exactly and I was like and they put they move in this sort of all of our friends yes they move in this like undulating form

you should certainly bend social groups and and it's it's great because you're like here it is And they bend social groups. And it's great because you're like, here it is. Not only are we getting like a group of people, a Miyazaki thing,

we're also getting Miyazaki's depiction of the elderly, which is like always such a joy to behold. And he loves a sort of collection of crones with like humor and, you know, delight and all this. I don't know. Also, a collection. He loves like a character

that is a grouping of be they verbal or not, be they sort of group-minded or independent but like, I mean, this movie has like four different masses in a way, you know? I think it's got like six. Because there's the parakeets,

they're the sort of... The creatures that look like the Doctor Who adipose. Yeah, the little souls. They're the maids. Yeah. Who are the other ones? The frogs become a mass.

Oh, sure. The herons become a mass. The pelicans become a mass. Yeah. I guess there's four different types of birds. A lot of... I will say my favorite character in this film,

I'm just going to say it right now, best part of the film is there's a shot where we first see the old women walking and they pass by a little staircase and there's a little old man sitting sitting on the stairs he doesn't move you're like oh that's just a background thing and at the last second he just does one little tiny he does a little tiny wave and then we never see that man again because i don't think it's even the older guy that teaches them i was about to say is it not that guy i don't think it's even the older guy that teaches him. I was about to say, is it not that guy? I don't think it is. Maybe it is. I have the movie right here. I'm now going to watch it.

Wow. Wait, you have the movie? Screener. Oh my God, he's a critic. JD, he's an awards voter. I don't know if you forgot about that. Critics don't get shit, but awards voters. Oh, excuse me. Do you want a Nyad water bottle? Please, please take my water voters. Oh, oh, excuse me. Do you want a Nyad water bottle?

Please, please take my water bottle. Yeah. Listen, I could tell you about the, um, I heard that Nyad water bottle, by the way,

it was lying about how much water can contain. Go on. Sorry. I had to make that joke. Oh, what's it called? Uh, what's the,

um, Rachel, um, the TV show, cat skills, comedian, New York, marvelous. Mrs. Maisel

I don't know if this it's a brief aside yeah as a and just what we need right now is the marvelous

Mrs. Maisel aside as a current Emmy voter yes and a WGA voter I get a lot of screeners and things like that

for years the marvelous Mrs. Maisel would send, like, somehow, a full-on, like,

package, like a parcel to every voter, every person. They would basically send, like, an Upper West Side apartment. Like,

some of these fucking studios, the money they spend is, it's sickening. You would open, it's truly awful. You would open the box that was Santa Claus technology because more stuff would come

out of it than could possibly be inside of it. How could this work? To this day, I still have Marvelous Miss Maisel poker chips on my desk that I'm like, these are too nice to throw away, but there's no context that I could ever use these. We want you to think of Margaret every time you play poker. I mean, the wildest

one of all time was when Fox slash Disney sent out the giant box of food to all the critics and voters for Nomadland. And they were like, here, it's the thing she doesn't have in the movie. Oh, my God. They should have sent a bucket to poop in. That would have been good. We got you fresh produce from our partner at like Whole Foods. I like it when they lean in.

I'll also say I've never gotten one of those and been like, oh, I got to vote for Miss Maisel. That's the ultimate truth of this. You might be like, wow, I still drink out of my Nyad bottle, but not like, and that's why Jodie Foster was the winner. It's like, no, why would you ever do that? Whatever. Okay, back to Boy and the Heron.

Sorry, that was a brief aside. I did hear that GKids is sending out herons to all voting members though yes but it's scary yeah

and they say like pretentious things like yeah no they're sending out a heron costume so you can be the little weird old man that would actually

be good yeah the heron hoodie will you go on the record and say that if they send you one David you will vote for the Boy and the Heron we already did it was one best the record and say that if they send you one, David, you will vote for the Boy and the Heron?

We already did. It was one best animated feature of the New York Film Critics Circle. No, David, that's smart. Actually, establish a timeline on this episode that people don't know that we're recording this in August.

So that when you finally do bang your giant gavel and your barrister's wig and decree... I have said I'm going to be the chair of the Critics Circle probably at some point

because I'm the vice chair right now. People are going to sit on said i want a gavel i want a gavel because we don't have one and i'm like i need a gavel what you need i'm a big survivor head you need a torch or an immunity idol maybe every would be funny if it's like niad has the immunity idol so actually it's gonna win every movie gets a torch and you snuff the ones that don't win. Yeah. It would be a lot of torches. Would you, if they gave you a gavel on the condition

that you wore the barrister wig, would you accept? Yes. Okay. No bits back. So, while he's at this home,

yes, there are these four lovely crones tooling around, but there's also a mysterious gray heron Yes. that is chilling. it's a little aggressive

I wouldn't say chilling I'd say the heron's got aggressive vibes from the beginning and there is also of course a giant ruined castle that's on the grounds where they're like

yeah you know avoid that yeah don't go over there also have you have you heard the thing that Toshio Suzuki

has said about the characters in the film? No. What do you mean? I don't know. Miyazaki is the boy. Okay. He is the heron. Suzuki is the heron.

Suzuki says that this is what the film was about. That Miyazaki is the boy. So after we talked all about how you don't really want to lay it out, Suzuki was like, well, here's my read. He's the boy. I'm the heron. Yeah, but he's just offering his read. Takahata is the granduncle.

He's the granduncle. Yeah, sure. That's interesting. Because obviously the easiest way to watch's just offering his reed. Takahata is the granduncle. He's the granduncle. Yeah, sure. That's interesting. Because obviously the easiest way to watch this movie is you're like, Miyazaki is the granduncle. This is about his legacy. About blah, blah, blah. But Miyazaki's probably like,

What? That guy? That guy's fucking old. I'm not that guy. I'm the boy. Yeah. I'm full of vim and vigor. And what's apparently interesting is that apparently Suzuki had to,

because Miyazaki was having trouble writing the granduncle because of his sorrow having lost Takahata, is that he started, he was like refocused around the heron and then the heron became this character that evolved and became, you know, because they have this really aggressive relationship.

Because in the beginning here, the heron is scary. Yes. And it's like evil and it's doing the heron voice and screaming at people, at him, and threatening him

in strange ways. It's scary. And then eventually they become like, not friends. I was going to say, like, they have an uneasy ally thing,

which I really like. It never becomes a buddy movie of like, okay, okay, we both have one of the same things. They're always kind of annoyed at each other.

Do we have any understanding of how Boy in the Harem became the American title? That's just what they decided to call it because they thought How Do You Live was too inscrutable a title for the American audience. Because do any of the other films have a title that is not a direct translation?

Lots of them do. Really? Okay. Yeah. Like Castle in the Sky is called Lepusha. Right. Right. You know, in, or whatever. Yes,

they often have, totally, and obviously like Spirited Away is called The Spiriting Away of Sin and Chihiro. There's stuff like that

where they simplified. I think The Boy in the Heron undersells what the film is about. I do too. It puts a weird focus on that only. I think if you're

a generic American audience. So what should it be called? Granduncle's Dreamscape Adventure. Well, that kind of gives up the ending. Okay, fine. I think it should be called The Boy vs. the Parakeets. I mean, How Do You Live is just such an evocative cradle. Of course, but like Magic Rock Castle.

That's kind of fun. Castle in the Water. Castle on the ground how do you say part of my castle in a place of little bubbly spirits how do you say their name warawara i would call the movie and introducing warawara they were really the breakouts for you absolutely did you not see the delightful floating creatures that literally took like a big deep breath and then floated into the sky

that's like my I love that um okay so uh Mahito's uh aunt is pregnant with a child let's also say just even from the introduction of the hair gun, you're like, the fuck? Why does he have teeth?

Yes. And before the full transformation's happening, you do have the very unsettling effect where you'll like see the nose start to slip under the beak. Right. Yes. And you're like, why is there a face inside of his mouth? Yeah. But you're also like, I love this. Yes. Yeah. At least I am.

No, no, no. I was, yeah, it's cooking for me, but it is deeply upsetting. Yes, it's very upsetting. Okay, so his dad's basically abandoning him here because he's kind of like, I'm going off to work. Busy to make airplane canopies. Yes, and his dad makes airplane canopies. Yeah.

As you referenced earlier, they have a car, which is unusual. He drives him to school. That's no good for him. He has a horrible experience at school so bad that he hits himself in the head with a rock

and starts bleeding. Repeatedly. To try and like get out of school, essentially. Yes, and I think just- Is that the read you had on it? That he was trying

to get out of school? I'm trying to remember exactly how it like develops now, but it's after he's bullied, right? Like the kid fights him. He's bullied, but I see him as being so distraught yeah exactly it's a

classic I'm trying to feel something I think it's self-harm yeah calculated yeah that he's so angry and so he's got this grief that he has not processed he doesn't know where to put it right and it comes out it's a physical flashing back to the flames as well obviously you keep you keep seeing the weird digital flamey stuff.

Yes, and he's having these visions of his mother. And I think it's this grief that's not been processed. And I think they reference at the end is that's why he's like, I can't accept this honor because I have malice. I have flaw. I've done this thing. And it's like, everyone has these scars that are within themselves. So yeah, he

hits a rock into his head and makes himself bleed and then everyone... Very nasty. Yeah, and everyone in the home tries to care for him and take care of him. But at the same time, his aunt is pregnant and he has a strange relationship with her because she's new mom, but he has not yet processed

the loss of his... Yeah, and she's not mean or anything. She's new mom, but he's, has not yet processed the loss of his... Yeah, and she's not mean or anything. She's quite kind, but it's, right, the dynamic is so... Yeah, he's 12, he's going through all this, you know. And then he visits her. That's what happens next, right? It's like he visits her, because like he hasn't visited her,

and the old ladies are like, you have to go visit her. Yeah, they like, yeah, they talk to each other. Yeah, but it's like a very cold relationship. And then that's when he discovers the... He finally follows the heron and then makes it to the castle that he cannot get into. He crawls into the castle.

It's this weird ruin. Yeah. The old ladies come get him out and they're like, don't fucking go in there. Yeah. Then he hits himself in the head with the rock. Right.

Then he's bedridden and he has a big bandage. Yeah. And a cool undercut to accommodate the scar. Very true. It is kind of cool now. Yeah. And then the heron's being a pain, so he's like, I'm going to fight the heron.

And he swings like a stick, you know, he goes and challenges the heron and swings a stick at him. And that's when the heron's like all right you know good job uh and they sort of have their first kind of showdown right i guess yeah and uh the heron's like your mom wants you you gotta go find your mom yeah and you're and does the her heron, I don't know what the order of events is, but basically the heron's like, your mom's still alive. Yeah.

Yes. And the boy's like, no, she's not. Like, this is horrible of you. And the heron's like, no, no, no, it's just human trickery. Like, you're, you know,

you just got to go get your mom. He faints. I think they say, did you see her body? Right. Yeah. Which is like its own. You don't know this classic human trick.

Yeah, and it's like such a... It's such a cruel thing to say to a child, right? It's like, did you see her body? And then like, that brings up, I'm sure, all these things for this kid who's like, no, when you're a kid, you don't witness death in that regard. It's like shielded from you.

It's taken away from you. I mean, the heron's going full, let me be frank on him. He says, come to think of it, you never did see my body. Oh my gosh. That's one of the things he says.

You know that video better than I. Yeah, because it's my audition piece. Every year I go and perform for the Juilliard judges. I'm going to say this with all due respect to Miyazaki-san and his wonderful artistry but at this point the heron is saying like your presence is requested it's like

bashing his wings around and his eyes are bulging out of his beak yeah and his nose which looks like balls looks like a big old ball sack sure can we Can we just agree on that? This was the thing you say with respect to me as an author? Exactly. I don't want to imply that I don't like appreciate

his artistic choices. Do you think he has a scrotum nose that's coming out from under his beak? Yeah. I just want to make sure everyone agrees with me.

Okay, well. That didn't read as close. Okay, well, how about I show you guys an image and you guys can tell me if I'm crazy for thinking this looks like balls flip it around

it just lets uh you know he's picking out the knife okay uh this is the section of the podcast where we wait for David to find kind of in that one shot I mean even that

here's another one here's what I'm gonna say with all due respect I need more wrinkle with all yeah I mean, even that. Here's another one. Here's what I'm going to say with all due respect. I need more wrinkle with all. Yeah, I mean, look, maybe it's a young ball sack. Smoothest scrotum. Okay. Okay. With all due respect to you, David, it worries me that that's what you think. I'm not saying

that's exactly what they look like. Okay. Did you think it looked like that? Or did you think it looked like that? Or did you think Miyazaki's intent was... I can't believe it was crazy. A dick in balls is going to come out of this hair in his mouth. Are your balls wrapped in a beak? It would be funny if I was like,

you know, before having sex with a new person, I was like, just, my penis is totally normal. My balls will be emerging from a beak. I can't, I'm, I'm appalled. They will slowly cough out. And they do have eyes above them. My penis is totally normal. My balls will be emerging from a beak. I'm appalled. They will slowly cough out. And they do have eyes above them. But they cannot see. They are starting to bite teeth. But the teeth don't hurt.

God, what a... They're large. They seem too large for the beak they're coming out of. Guys, this is the last film of Miyazaki. He did it! He built a bow and arrow. We can't do this. We can't do this to Miyazaki. David! it! He built a bow and arrow. We can't do this. We can't do this to Miyazaki. Quite crucially, he takes some of the discarded feathers

from the herring. And I know it's ironic that I'm the one saying... You said it was a No Bits episode! You called it! That's what's honestly scariest is that wasn't a bit. David was serious. David was serious. He had tears in his eyes when he said that.

He makes the arrow and he makes the arrow. He makes the arrow, and he makes the arrow from the flechette, the tip, not the tips, the other side from the heron's feathers, which is going to be sort of an important weapon later. Yes. That he has his own magic to use against him, basically.

And then he goes off. Then the lady of the house disappears, right? That's the big inciting incident. It's not like he goes off. Then the lady of the house disappears, right? That's the big inciting incident. It's not like he goes off on his own just because the heron's being such a pain in the ass to him. It's when she disappears, he's like, okay, I guess I must now travel into this place. And I think that's a really important moment

because he sees her walk into the woods, and this is someone who he doesn't hate, but he is feeling a level of separation from because of his situation right and yet he feels some sense of responsibility for this person who he knows yeah he does care for to some degree and wants to have in his life even if right now he has this indignance about the situation he is in, what draws him into the adventure is going to help this person

who he knows his dad loves and who he knows is trying to love him. And it's his mother's sister. That's important, obviously. But I think that's very important. Like you said, he's not going into this selfishly right in fact

he's not trying to just escape or run away yeah that's also the moment that sends us into the adventure also is that we can get we'll get there in a minute but he he then goes into the woods or he everyone's trying to look for her right that's what happens next yeah and then he goes to the

big creepy you know archway tunnel that lights up with all the books the maid is with him going like you can't go like you know like all that uh the mirror made kiriko and then the the castle opens for him and the heron summons him inside and that's when the heron is like come in right get in here come hang out you know adventure I don't know what the exact line is that's sort of just a rough that's my dub of it but also so much

there is such a sourness to his tone yes at all times it's not even like yeah it's not even like oh he's kind of cranky and he's got like a voice like he's very antagonistic he's not even like, oh, he's kind of cranky and he's got a voice. He's very antagonistic. He's not a little stinker. He's worse than that.

There's something upsetting about him. There's something kind of vile about him. Now, Mike, I wonder if the dub will soften that at all. But it sounds like Arpatz is going full asshole with it. Little asshole. He's a little asshole. Again, this is 45 minutes into the movie he's finally

inside the castle yes he's in this big room with the sun painted on the floor his mother supposedly is like lying on a couch in front of him right the heron is there this is the first time I think a lot of the audience is thinking like okay now the movies we're in a Miyazaki movie in another world

like okay he tries to touch the mother and she like is made out of the movie's... We're in a Miyazaki movie in another world. Like, okay. He tries to touch the mother and she's like, is made out of water. It's such a cool... Yeah, she's like a jello kind of... She acts like a puddle almost. She melts. She melts and it's horrific.

Yeah. And it's, again, this moment... And he's mad. He's like, you can't do this to me. Yeah, but it's a moment you think of a kid who lost his mother and then it's like, there she is and just wanting to touch it and then her turning into this like, it's like, there she is, and just wanting to touch her, and then her turning into this like,

it's like horrific. Yeah. It's horrible. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I think is so interesting about this is that so much of what is drawing this character forward

is this trauma and this scar. And it's not... A sense of exploration that maybe a lot of young Miyazaki heroes have. But what's interesting, right, is it's not that he believes that his mom is alive or that he believes he's good. It's that he's being told by this evil force.

Yeah. If only you do more right now, you could get your mother back. Yeah. Which is such an interesting take on that because I think there's a softer version of that where it's like you know the naivete of child and trying to and then reality no this is a dark voice a dark voice inside the world that's trying to tell him if you just do more you can get this thing back

i would say he almost reacts as if he he never fully believes it like he is very wary of what the heron is selling him even as he moves forward through this, which makes the sort of jellification of the mom even more upsetting. Right. Where it's like, why put him through this whole fucking,

yeah. And that's why he keeps bringing up Natsuko, his aunt, and his father's new wife, as being as important to him as this goal is because she... She exists. And...

She is a tangible present thing. And his father loves her. Yes. And he brings that up. Yeah. As that's part of his motivation. I have to do this for my dad also. And that's such an interesting thing.

That's what's driving the character is this thing that he's being taunted at to maybe you can solve this. And this thing that is someone else's relationship that is not the thing that moves, but he knows that it's his responsibility to try to seek something this. And this thing that is someone else's relationship that is not the thing that moved, but he knows that it's his responsibility to try to seek something there. That's a really interesting motivation.

Yeah. Because then they have this whole battle scene or fight between the heron and the boy. He shoots the arrow at him and he actually, you know, yes, penetrates his beak. That's when he gets the hole through the beak. Yes. And that's the moment at which the heron starts actually

being sort of a reluctant ally. But the thing is... He's fully vomited his own head out of his bird mouth. He's being a huge pain in the ass, but in a way that's kind of threatening and scary. And then finally, like, after this battle, all the way up at the top of the stairs, like, there's this shadowy old man

who says, like, foolish bird, like, be his guide. And you're like, bitch. Like, where were you before? And he keeps... Shadow man? Yeah. I know, I know.

He keeps doing this in the movie, popping in and being like, I told you, stop trying to kill or torment this boy. Uh-huh. You're supposed to be his guide. And the Heron will go like, yeah, okay.

And then the minute he's gone, he's like, fuck you. He never really turns around on it. And to me, that's a reading of, from what I'm projecting to that from my own life, is that's that constant struggle with the, our own traumas and the things that we're trying to reckon with

and the things inside us that are taunting us to move forward. And at some point, those things are both our antagonist and also our guide. And when Mahito is able to assert some sort of control through this sort of magical fight with the Heron, that with the, the Heron. That's also in the Heron's willing to be like, okay, I guess I'm going to be your guide because you have some, you've gained enough,

um, self ability that I have to sort of supplicate to you to a little bit. And this, this, this great force, this, you know, this,

this legacy is telling me to also be your guide. Right. And I think that's a really interesting battle because that's so much of grief and trauma and loss is like this thing can both be an antagonist and it can be a guide yeah terrific point it's sort of reminding me of another dynamic yeah um spawn and violator uh griffin has a big thumbs up from the bathroom ben like like the thumbs up at the end of t2 i have griffin trying to put my finger on who the fucking heron reminds me of you're totally right now the difference of course is this is a little boy not a dead you know you know a secret agent who became a hell superhero whatever whatever the fuck spawned.

They're different in that sense. It's funny how the movie Spawn, which you went to see without me in theaters. I was very jealous. I yelled at Alex Perry for weeks about it. Wait. The original Spawn? Yeah, the 90s Spawn.

Oh, I was... My brain was so scrambled. I was like, wait, that came out in like 1995. You guys went to see it. I rewatched it recently just for fun. What a picture, obviously. Leguizamo's best work. A brave performance from John Leguizamo.

I haven't. I haven't revisited Spawn since I saw it in theaters. But yes, Violator is technically there to help spawn understand things right but he's also kind of a villain i mean he is the villain yeah and he's mean the whole time he sucks he's beyond that he's so i wish there was some sort of cue that they could give us that he was that's what interesting is like spawn soft plays that he's a villain because uh they name him what do they name him violate and what's he is like spawn soft plays that he's a villain because they name him. What do they name him? Violator. And what's he look like?

A little clown. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Like two seconds into the movie, he's like, oh, I farted. Oh, no, that was a wet one. You know, like pulling his pants on me.

Like, do you see poo on it? You know, it's like. We're talking about how much clown sucks. Yeah. When I saw that movie for the first time, I contended to my father that Leguizamo was robbed of an Oscar nomination and we saw it in 35mm a couple months ago as it was intended as it was intended in gorgeous

35mm and the second Leguizamo came on screen what you're describing basically his like off camera dialogue I turned to Ben I was like this is the worst performance it's the most insufferable characterization in the history of cinema. He's disgusting.

He sucks. He's a bad thing. I haven't seen it since the 90s. I still think it's good. That movie is too fucking awful to hate in a way. You're kind of like, I love this. There are moments of genuine something. There's some moments of something and then there's moments like where they go to

hell and it looks like, you know, PlayStation minus one graphics. Yeah. And you're like, these sweeties put this in theaters. Like, this is what they had for us. And it was directed by the guy who basically was one of the two dudes responsible for the CGI breakthroughs at ILM that allowed Jurassic Park where they were

like, well, you've cracked the code on computer effects. Right. Go show us everything you've got in this movie he also did like the T-1000 and all that right A.Z. Dippy Mark A.Z. Dippy anyway Spawn miniseries Mark

A.Z. Dippy miniseries coming 2027 we could do a Spawn episode but the Heron if Ben chooses it I mean I think it's a rich text i remember i think there's a lot to say there's a lot to say clearly not not just the one that we just said there's more a lot more absolutely i remember there being a ton of behind

the scenes featurettes about how hot the costume is that leguizamo had to be in and how it was so it definitely doesn't look comfortable walking in a squat the whole time the whole thing is fucking insane you sort of admire the performance except for that it's the worst it's the worst you're sort of like i can't believe how committed to it he committed he is to this yeah it's unbelievable he had a really strong take on the character which is what if the audience hated beetlejuice everyone hates beetlejuice in the movie too. The movie. I'm saying the audience every time it comes on screen is like, fucking come on. The worst thing about Spawn is that he has to deliver

all of the exposition. He's the only character in that movie that knows what's going on. Until Cagliostro comes in the last 20 minutes and is just like, here's everything that hasn't made sense for the last two hours. He's hanging out. I forgot about Cagliostro. But he doesn't start explaining stuff until usually he's like spawn you have to listen to me and spawns like

what and then you know truly he will enter scenes just doing that one of the original comic book movies yeah there's two things I have to say and we still have like an hour plus left of boy and heron plot to untangle

yeah we really need two hours of Spawn plot. We need to... No, that movie is a tight 71 minutes long. It's got two hours worth of story. When they say feature film, they spell feature differently. You know, it's like when they're... F-E-E-T. How KFC had to turn into like just KFC.

They're like, this is a feature. It's a PHI. We need to order lunch because we're going to have to record another episode right after this one. So let me know what you guys want. What's the other thing? Oh, we have to record another episode right after this one. Right, that's what it is.

Thank you for reminding me. So he gets transported to a beach and he sees all these ships sailing by What we have not mentioned yet Only in passing is that The Heron is a man There's a little man inside the Heron He has a big nose and crazy teeth

But he is He is a little DeVito Inside the Heron Yeah I'm trying to think if there's someone He's got a little bit He's DeVito meets Polito perhaps he's got a little John Polito in him there's a little Gonzo in there

there's a little Gonzo Gonzo's Gonzo's so sweet though yeah he's not sweet but even DeVito there is an inherent cuteness to DeVito even when he's playing his most unsavory type and a little like come on I'm not all bad.

The Heron feels like, is this guy just 100% unpleasant? Right, right, right. Like, why am I supposed to even root for this guy? But then he is also little... There's a little bit of monkey bone in the Heron. A lot of monkey bone in the Heron. Well, Miyazaki's favorite film of the 2000s.

And can I say this? Miyazaki goes hard against Snow White for rotoscoping and all the stuff, but he's like, but Monkeybone. Monkeybone was pure. Monkeybone was good.

I don't know if I'm going out of limb here. The relationship between the boy and the hammer reminded me a little bit of Spawn and Violator. Do you know what I'm saying?

So, here's what I'm trying to come up with an analog. Here's what he's confronted with. Do you guys remember Spawn? When he arrives at the beach. He's stuck in a loop.

A view of boats. Oh my God. No, no, no. What? What? Kuriko is like, we should go back. Yeah, I mentioned that.

And he's like, no, we still have to go get Natsuko. Yes, he's going to get his aunt. He could have gone back and he's like, I'm not gonna. Oh, get Natsuko. He could have gone back, and he's like, I'm not gonna. Oh, of course not. Okay, he lands on a beach. Boats in the distance. Yes. There's a bunch of pelicans. Yes.

Looking like normal pelicans. Yeah. Yeah. Well, relative to... They are the animal, the pelican, right? Yes. You know. There's no briefs. I was about to make that same stupid joke he goes and sees it's just so miyazaki this like you know there's a big golden gate and then there's just like a sort of cave behind it yeah and like a black hole and he goes and gazes at it and this

is what makes the pelicans go insane and start screaming and talking to him in human language like this is the point i think where i am beginning to be like i don't know if i can handle yeah the world building it might be too aggressively surreal for me i was feeling that a bit yeah like i like it more than a bit as imagery and i like it as atmosphere but i'm also still like i I am watching a film where I need to grasp what's going on. It's funny because I had the opposite. The moment that moment happened, I was like, and here we go,

the movie begins. I definitely do have that thing of like, yeah, like, okay, we're in Miyazaki territory. Like, okay, fantasy, animals. Like, sure, that's what he does. I should feel comfortable right now. But it does feel like more aggressively

surreal than ever and I will say also because there's a lot of these incredible animators that come from this sort of background of realism or just have totally different styles there's a couple animators who are known for their very specific detail there are so many giant swarms of things that are so brilliantly

hand animated in this think about animating every one of these pelicans and every... It's like absolutely, absolutely amazing. The fire, when the wrapping, the paper is sort of flung around his head. Yeah. But then, so then the pelicans all swarm him. They do.

We've also missed a scene where before that, he's swarmed by frogs. That happens right in the real world, yes. Yes. And they, when we say swarming, he's like enveloped by them. And happens right in the real world, yes. And when we say swarming, he's like enveloped by them. And it happens again. And then these pelicans push him through this gate. But they're also like screaming in human... Yes.

Like human, Jesus. In whatever. English. Japanese. Dan Stevens. And then a badass pirate queen storms in and saves him with a fiery whip. When I saw her, I was like,

David's gonna love this character. Yeah. Florence Pugh's doing her in the dub, I believe. Oh, okay. I was trying to figure out who. And then she has this magical whip. She also sets aside her sailboat

and it's like the seas are really rough and really crazy. It's like really rough seas going on. really crazy like it's like really a rough seas going on and she jumps out and then forms this like magical circle that and then gives some very specific instructions like keep looking at the cave do not look behind yourself step backwards and then now you are safe and it's like okay this person who knows this world and understands it and can sort of take him under her wing. The cave is the void, right? Like, it's...

You can't define it further than it's just it's like, if you go in there, there's nothing else. Did we brush over him needing to whittle the cork, basically, to fill in the heron's beak from the damage

he himself caused. No, that happens later. Oh, it happens later. Okay. So he gets in her boat. They go over the bar, much like in the great Craig Gillespie film, The Finest Hours. And then it's calm.

Yeah. Yes. And then they're like sailing. And there's weird mythical creature. She captures like a fucking manatee monster from the sea. Yeah. You're kind of like,

can someone finally explain what's going on? Right? Like, the movie has slowed down. And she doesn't really, but she does say, like, in this world, most people are dead. Like, that's her kind of big takeaway, right? She's like, all of those ships are illusions.

Right. Yeah. And she knows he's on this quest. And again, it's just so much Miyazaki imagery. These people who look like the spirits from Spirited Away, they're like black jelly creatures with eyes. Another swarm, basically. That are like rowing boats. They're like hollow people.

No one is like, this is the afterlife. They're like hollow people. Like, no one is like, this is the afterlife or this is where people go after, you know, like whatever, like after something or other.

Right? Yeah. And Miyazaki does an interesting thing where he pulls a lot of imagery and a lot of concepts from like Shinto tradition and all this stuff.

But then also... He does that in a spirited way. Yes. But then he's adapting it and creating his own version of it as well and he doesn't name or specify

too many things he lets them be these ideas where you sort of kind of glean what they are and what they represent and what they're from

but it's never a character's never going those are the dead people and what they do is this and what they feast on is this and when they did it like you just sort of get these glimpses of them and these these um emotional responses to that right

it's much like spirited away it's like who's on this train spirits what do you mean yeah and then yes the warawara show up after that little adipose like you said from doctor who or what's another blobby friend from what they're like is the souls from Soul. That's true. Kind of. I thought of Kirby. Yeah. Kirby.

Or blobby. Blobby. Or the water babies from Elemental. Clearly, it just shows that you haven't seen it. You're showing your ass on this one. It's just disgusting that you would try to fucking, you know, fake your way through that movie. You gotta study Elemental. You got to study elemental.

You got to steep yourself. You know, the water people cry a lot too. They're very emotional. So they cry a lot. The tears flood their apartment. That's the kind of next level intellectual thinking going on. I haven't seen it.

I'm sure it's great. Their high rise apartments are flooded, but they don't swim. They don't like swimming. They just walk through water and eat dinner on inflatable furniture. I would eat the water. J.D. Amato and I love movies. Elemental's a movie.

I'm sure I love it. Elemental is a movie. Right? It was classified as such by the FDA. Yes, although there was a lot of fighting. David.

Yes. Masterclass. What? That's who's sponsoring this episode again. We love Masterclass. We love Masterclass. Masterclass makes a meaningful gift this season. Look? That's who's sponsoring this episode again. We love Masterclass. We love Masterclass. Masterclass makes

a meaningful gift this season. Look, it's always any time of year is a good time of year to gift yourself a membership to Masterclass. I got a text today, literally today

from a friend saying, can you get me a Masterclass? That's a nice thing to give to people. Yeah. For you and anyone on your list

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Yes. There are a lot of film-related ones I've talked in the past about. Samuel Jackson and Helen Mirren have incredibly good classes on acting. Helen Mirren, in particular, opens up her lesson with her walking on screen and sitting in a chair and then saying, that is the single hardest thing to do as an actor. And unpacking it in a way that's really interesting

that I think about a lot. Yes. Well, you know, right. That's what I'm saying. Like, there's obvious, like, Gary Kasparov teaches lot. Yes. Well, you know, right. That's what I'm saying. Like there's obvious, like Garry Kasparov teaches chess. Sure. Like he's famous for chess. Hans Zimmer teaches film scoring. He scored a few films.

Scored a picture too. I just like that there's also like Esther Perel teaches relational intelligence. I think I got that figured out. Amy Poehler teaches you to prepare to be unprepared. I guess that's probably sort of aim probably. That's something I actually do have figured out. Amy Poehler teaches you to prepare to be unprepared. I guess that's probably sort of aim-pravi. That's something I actually do have figured out.

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Okay? Who's not going to be thrilled if you gift them a Masterclass membership under the tree? Taskmaster? The character from Marvel? Possibly. Yeah. He's mastered it all. He knows it all.

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you can get two memberships for the price of one at masterclass.com slash check. masterclass.com slash check. Right now, you can get two memberships for the price of one at masterclass.com slash check. Masterclass.com slash check. Offer terms apply. What were we talking about? Okay, she's on the pirate. Yeah, the Wawa Weewas show up. The Wawa Weewas? The Wara Waras. Sure. The floating soul boys. Yes.

They look very nice. Exactly. Oh my God. Then she cuts open the giant fish for them. He helps. A bunch of guts come out. Yeah. And then she's like, yeah, this is for the little bobs to eat

so they can fly. Okay. He goes to her house. Wait, why did you say that? No, no, no. I love this. No. All right.

I don't want to sound like I don't love these moments. I think I'm more just like the first time watching it, I'm like, okay, they watch it. They eat the fish guts from the weird sea monster so they can fly. Filing that away. I assume that will matter. What you realize in the end of this movie is like,

yeah, sure, maybe there's some dreamy logic to a lot of this stuff. But that's not what's important to the story being told. So that sort of leads to my last sort of big diversion that I want to take real quick. I'm going to kill you. Listen,

when you ask, you know what you signed up for. How dare he do the podcast? We're very good friends. We all know that, Nelson. Okay, so I've been on part of why I was going so deep on Miyazaki stuff before this and Japanese cinema and all this stuff before this was part of a larger thing that I've been going through as a byproduct of my own career. so obviously I I think a lot of my public projects are like a lot of like the weird like variety shows and things but in the

past five years I'd said I've made most of my money as a writer and writing stuff even if a lot of that stuff does not see the light of day remains in development yes I'll say here book coming soon hey book coming soon but part

of that process has been very interesting to me. And I went off an evolution that was kicked off by a document that I was sent that I sent to all of you guys. That's the thing that I sent. Okay, right. I forgot about this.

So this is... Don't get too excited on Mike. I would like to blind item the... It might spike the level. You know what this document is? What is this document? Wait, wait, wait. Can I just say... There's a just, because sometimes. I would like to blind item the. It might spike the level. You know what this document is? What is this document? Wait, wait, wait. Can I just say.

There's a reason I sound the way I sound. I want to blind item the. Okay. Company. It is a large streaming company that has a document that outlines for one, how to pitch something to them,

basically to fit into their model. Yes. So I was sent this document at a certain point. And these types of things float around a lot in the industry of, hey, actually, here's how story works. Right. I'm going to say this document sucks. Is that fair?

Are we all on the same page about this? One look at this document made me despair. It boils things down. It makes it simple. So this document upset me. And one of the things that upset me is that it doesn't suggest this format for how stories work. It demands it. It says that if you are going to make a story for us, this is what it is going to be.

And it feels retrofitted from analytics. We have identified the commonalities between the things that audiences react to. The other thing is that it is loaded with imagery from shows that are not

from this company, which is insane. Now, it has some, a few pictures of shows that this company has actually created. Mostly, it is not. Yes.

This one show in particular, they're really foregrounding that it is not their show. It was not created, you know, through this kind of robotic pitch process. No. So one of the things that this document includes is also it really heavily goes to bat for the Dan Harmon story circle. Which is really just a sort of simplified version of the hero's journey. Yes.

Which is the, yeah, exactly. And that was the thing that was floating around in the industry a lot of like, oh, this is this rubric. So having gone to film school, I've read every one of these. I wonder how Harmon feels about that, honestly.

Given that he's like, that's how I process how to write a script. Yes. That's not like the rules that everyone needs to follow. It's not a, it's not dogmatic.

It's a guide. Anyway. And this guide was extremely dogmatic and it was extremely like, this is how you have to do it. And if you bring us something that's not dogmatic. It is a guide. Anyway. And this guide was extremely dogmatic and it was extremely like, this is how you have to do it. And if you bring us something that's not this,

you're not doing it correctly. Right. And having... Well, stories are math and we all know this and technology is finally perfect. Plot armor, my favorite new phrase

that you taught me. Yeah, plot armor. Yeah, well, having gone through film school, I was forced to, you know, I've read all of my Joseph Campbell, I've read my John Truby, Save the Cat, this. Back when I was in film school, I was forced to, you know, I've read all of my Joseph Campbell here. I've read my John Truby, Save the Cat, this.

Back when I was in film school also, so I was an animator in film school. That was like what I focused on on top of the live action writing and directing stuff, is the big thing was like the Pixar rules. There are 22 rules of storytelling and whatever. And all this stuff, I feel like there's a trend.

Trey Parker, NYU lecturer that gets circulated all the time. Make sure that the fire people rules of storytelling and whatever. And all this stuff, I feel like there's a trend. The Master and Trey Parker NYU lecture that gets circulated all the time. Yes. Make sure that the fire people in the Bottega well,

it's a Pixar rule. It's all great, but I had a big reaction from it, which is, I have a very complicated relationship in my own life with rules.

I was very adherent to them and felt very terrified by them growing up as a Midwestern Catholic boy. And so I when someone gives me a set of rules, if I don't agree with them, it creates a schism inside

me where I get very like, okay, now I need to break these rules because like something's wrong here. And so I went down this tirade or this path of thinking where I'm like, I think the hero's journey is bullshit. I think the,

uh, the three X structure is bullshit. I think that is a, my POV. And I think, you know, other people have talked about this where it's like, I think the hero's journey,

uh, as it's been, uh, adapted because the Joseph Campbell stuff is actually a little more broad. And like, what's him looking at stories and being like, what, you know,

it's insane with harmon is finding the commonalities by observing the things that organically happen and how we process them but rather than imposing when those become templates on which stories are that's where things get dictated i think it's also my pov is that there is a imperialistic background to that hero's journey right because a lot of it comes from Greek and Roman epics, which a lot of those stories, having taken Latin for eight years and into college as well, is like...

Oh, Bob Brann. Pewter science. Latin. It's my, you know, my credentials here. But even, right, just the notion that they're rooted in people, quote-unquote,

conquering things. Well, the idea is that some of these stories are there's a character that wants something and there's going to be things that are going to get in their way

and they have to fight through them. And sometimes those fights are going to be so bad and horrible, they're going to feel bad, but actually in the end it's going to be good.

And at the end, it's justified. You're going to get what you want because you went through all these trials to get this thing. And that's a gross simplification of it.

But somehow, sometimes that's how it reads. And then there's a big part of this, which is I think in Western American storytelling, conflict is at the heart of all of this. You can't have story without conflict is the thing that's told over and over again. So I got into a big

discussion with my dear friend Aaron Covington. Do you guys know Aaron? He's the host of Black Guys on White Movies. He's also the writer of Creed and he's a wonderful writer of his own right. Where I was like, I think there's other story structures and the fact that we're saying

that this is the only story structure, I think is bullshit. I think it's sort of like American centric thinking and imperialistic and all this stuff. And so he was sort of testing me and trying to get me into it. At the same time of all this, a side thing that's been going on in my life

is for the past five to eight years, I've been diving into the world of amateur haiku universe and trying to get published in the haiku space. Ben looks shocked. You've never mentioned this to me. This is the thing that... You're absolutely out of your mind. I love it. Once a year, I try to submit haikus

for publishing. I'm yet to be successful, so I'm very amateur. But I really go down the path of all this stuff because it's really interesting. Which is a very strict format. No. No.

So, okay. My brief thing is that what people think of haiku is actually not what modern haiku has evolved into, especially in the English sense. When you think of haiku,

you probably think of 575. Miracle, yeah. What modern haiku has evolved into, especially in the English sense. When you think of haiku, you probably think of 575. Miracle, yeah. What modern haiku has evolved into has nothing to do with syllable counts in that same way. The idea of haiku at its core, and I could be getting this all wrong, maybe that's why I'm an amateur

and nothing ever gets published, but is you're trying to create the juxtaposition of two images as taking the idea of there's a separation in the haiku that divides into two parts. And so you're taking two of two images as taking the idea of there's a separation in the haiku that divides into two parts. And so you're taking two of these images, two of these ideas that you put them next to each other. And in their objective nature, putting them together will tell you a larger truth about the world or about this moment. One of the exercises that they do in haiku sometimes

is you go, all right, think of a moment that's important to you. Now look to your left. What do you see? Look to your right. what do you see? Look to your right, what do you see? Do those tell the story of this moment? And haiku is about trying to be as efficient as possible. We're trying to distill these moments down to these as few words as possible, as illuminating words as possible to tell this

story. A big part of haiku is a kigo, which is like a word that will sort of cue you into the season, either in a literal sense or an emotional sense. And there's like the koreji, which is like the cutting word, the word that slices through things and changes the tone and pace at the end of it. So at the same time, I'm going through all this stuff and learning about the history of haiku. And that's when I stumble upon, there's a thing that is uh in um like eastern cultures and

like japanese culture uh kisho tenketsu which is the story structure that a lot of uh japanese writers and things like that are grown up to learn which is uh key is the introduction show is development and then 10 is different than in America where we have conflicts. Right. Well, 10 is the twist. It's a change. Something changes. And then Ketsu is the conclusion. And what's interesting about Kisho Tenketsu is that it's a different frame of thinking about story.

Now, you can take stories that fall within the hero's journey. You can apply all of these to any story, right? Just because you're taking a story and putting it within this context doesn't change that they can all have a lot of these things. What's interesting, though, is that the primary driver of the plot is

not conflict. It is not that you have to have this conflict and then it has to be resolved. And with a lot of the Miyazaki films, there is a lot of plot that moves without conflict being the driving factor. Processing change rather than conquering conflict.

And the second and third act is something will change. It's not that someone, you finally got into the phone, you're going to have it out and something will happen. Yes, there's not usually some straightforward villain to defeat or anything like that. And even the movies where there is a villain, it's not that we're going to have it out and then either we're going to get our way or we're not.

It's usually that something just happens and something shifts in the universe and then the film ends. And that shift connects back to the themes of what's going on in the beginning and the middle, which I think is a really interesting way to think about story. And this is another film where i think conflict though there are parties that are working against each other it is not the driver of the plot

and i think that's really interesting and the other thing is that in my sort of adventure of all the story stuff there are tons of other story structures that come from other cultures that do not rely on uh conflict or that sort of like a character. Because I always say the thing where I'm like, I don't even know if that a character has to go through change for it to be a story, which is usually a thing where it's like, well, we all know in story, at least the character has to change. And my POV is like, I don't think that is true. Think about fables. In fables, rarely do the characters change. What changes is the audience's POV. I love fables.

Right. But you refer to. I love fables. Right, but... You refer to Bill William's fables. And then, yeah, exactly. But at the end of a fable, a lot of the characters don't know what's different. They don't accept the change. The audience reading it takes the change. Very interesting.

I would have to think about that. But anyway. I'm sure you're right. And then there's also like, you know, etiological stories where it's like, oh, it's a story that's telling you about how something was created. And so it's not about

a change from the character, but a change with the universe that happens. So anyways, that's all to say, I think there's a lot of fixation and a lot of the way that we as Americans read films is like you're saying,

okay, great. The fish is being cut and the war war eat it. I have to hold on to that because that's going to be a piece of... Right, that'll be important. Later, he'll use the thingy to do the thing.

You don't introduce that character if that character doesn't have... Chekhov's gone way of thinking. If in the end we need the war war to fly up to get a thing, and so we need to feed them fish to fly the thing, and good thing we learned that earlier. But now may I speak on this same topic?

So the warawara introduced. Then he goes and he chills out with, what's her name, Kiriko, in her house for a minute. And then they go outside and they see that the Warawara are now floating into the sky. They've gotten turned into balloons

and they're floating. And it's like, oh yeah, these are souls going to be born. Then a bunch of pelicans start eating the Warawara. And he's upset. And it's awful, right? It's like a bad thing is happening.

And then he starts like fighting the pelicans, right? And there's the fire and it's obviously like, there's a boat, the fire, the boat catches on fire and he's upset. And then he goes to see this dying pelican who will one day have the voice of Willem Dafoe, I guess. Right? Oh, that's a great casting. And, you know, the Pelicans, like,

we were brought here to eat the Wara Wara. Like, we're a solution to a problem that was created earlier. Because this is Miyazaki talking... Maybe. I don't want to put words in his mouth. What it feels like to you is... Yeah, like, talking about, like, the creative process, for one, right? Of, like, well, I brought this in, but then this meant for one right of like well I brought this

in but then this meant that made no sense then I brought that in you know then the old like you know I swallowed a fly thing right like you know yeah we got the goats to eat the bamboo but now we have goats everywhere so we need snakes to kill the goats so you know like and also he's talking about the way our earth functions

and you know what humans have done to it I'm sure right like there's environmental thinking. But I just also love that he's like, no, this is like roiling chaos of a man trying to like tweak something into perfection and it only makes things crazier and more surreal and hard to understand.

Yes, and that for me... This film is for children. For me, when I saw this... It's not really for children, but it sort of is. For me, my reading, right, is that this, the fantasy world, right,

is the sort of subconscious. It's the internal world of a person. And within that, we have all of these things that are fighting against each other. And there's this innocence

and this, you know, joy and purity that I think the Wawa represent where it's like, oh, these... Little babies! Yeah the wire wire represent where it's like, Oh, these, this sort of like babies. Yeah, exactly.

And then there's also these Pelicans that have to keep that in check. Right. And those are, I don't know. We came here because that's what we're supposed to do. Right. And that's so much of adulthood, right?

As we have these things where you're like, you're like, why do I have to keep this aspect of my, but I do in order to survive. And it's not that that's bad. It's that that's part of a job that these things have to do within ourselves to keep ourselves in check. And it's like, again, it's not necessarily that like, oh, this is going to lead to something

in the plot. But it's this moment for me that is so beautiful and resonates. And I'm like, yes, this is part of the experience. This is how we live. This is part of it. I think it's beautiful. yes, this is part of the experience. This is how we live. This is part of it. I think it's beautiful. Everything about this is beautiful. It's the same thing with the heron.

Yeah. Like where it's like, why aren't you helping me? And he's like, because I'm a complicated little fucker. I don't, I'm not here to help you. He's telling me maybe, but like, that's not my, you know, purpose in this story. Right. Right. And yes, after this is when they have

the thing you were talking about, they're fine. Kiriko's finally like, can the two of you just work together? Yeah. Like, come on, you can help him. And then, you know, he makes the cork thing, like you say, to sort of, you know,

sort of bridge the divide. He can no longer fly because of the hole. Right. That moment's kind of funny because at first, after he plugs the hole, he's kind of like, fuck you. Yeah. And flies away. And then he's like, actually, it's kind of blocking my sight. Right.

Could you, sorry about all that stuff I just said. Could you fix it? And I really love that moment. And to me, that resonated to me as such like a... To me, I'll have these scars or traumas or things that I've tried to reckon with. These parts of myself that I don't like, but that also are important to keep me driving

forward. And then I'll find solutions to sort of clip the wings of those things to keep them from getting in my way. And then I'll realize like, okay, I can't totally just shut down this aspect of who I am internally. This thing that this does drive me somewhere. So I have to give it some, I have to create this weird allyship with the things that are inside me that are troublesome. And so I love that they have this weird relationship where it's like, He says, I'm not your ally. Like he says it very blankly. Like, yeah.

It's this internal thing that is pulling the boy on this journey but also is an antagonist and then the boy stops it and it's like great then you're not going to be you're going to have your ability anymore and then the heron's like i sort of need it to help you and also like i need it and then the boy's like all right fine i'll help you and then the heron's like what can you actually can you keep working on this aspect of yourself like you know what i mean it's like there is a therapy. What I project onto it is like a therapization process where it is like,

oh, you still got to, can you just shave down this little part of it a little bit? Because like, you did solve this, but like, it needs to be a little better. You know,

it's fascinating. What happens after all this, guys? I don't remember the exact next moment. The next thing is the introduction of the parakeets. It's that late into the movie. It's suddenly like, oh, so she's in there. What's in there?

Oh, the kingdom of parakeets. First they go to the house where the parakeets start chanting edible. He meets the parakeets. Because the parakeets are like, oh. Red parakeet. Yeah, who's like, come here. Your aunt's inside.

Yes, by all means and then they pull out silverware to eat and they they explain that the aunt was carrying a

was with child and so they would not eat her because she was with child right but because he is not with child he is

eatable eatable and they start chanting eatable is the subtitled translation that we got. And then he's like, you tricked me. Right.

You just were taking your eat. But then in the moment, you're like, yeah, man, they were going to eat. Yeah, what'd you think was going to happen? But then he is rescued by another new character, Lady Hemi.

Yes. Who appears out of like a flaming portal and beats them away. We saw her earlier in the movie. Right. We briefly glimpse her. Where she is helping to defend the Wara Wara when they're being attacked.

Yes. She's shooting fireworks out the air. Don't get too excited about it, David. She takes him to this... No, I am excited. And then what's interesting is that she's protecting the Wara Wara, but then her fireworks that she's using to protect them are setting

fire to them. And that's part of it is Mahito is like, you have to stop. You're also setting fire to the Warawara. Again, it's this complicated... It's so amazing to me. She appears. Should we talk about who these women are

or should we just get to it? Yeah, we can just get to it. I mean, if you're listening to the plot beat by beat, then you've either watched the film or want to understand it. Right, right. Like, you know, obviously, Kiriko is the maid. Yes. Like, as a younger version of the maid.

Kiriko is the old woman that he went in with. Right, yes. Version of her. Yeah. Full of gumption. And then Hemi is his mother, basically, as a younger woman. And you find that out pretty early on

because she keeps referring to her little sister, which is... Which is the, you know... Katsuko. Natsuko. Natsuko, who Mahito is trying to find.

And so you're like, oh, that must be his mom, but you don't really get that solidified. I wasn't thinking about it when I watched the movie, which is the only reason I paused on whether we should. I was kind of just like,

okay, another character. We'll figure this out. I was curious because they dropped references and the whole time I was like, that's his mom, right? Right. And of course, the heron has been saying like,

your mom is waiting for you. Right. Right. But they make it very overt by the end. I mean, it's worth acknowledging. But the end is when like, I felt like this movie dropped 80 pianos on me.

And I was like, of course. That's what the movie is. Right. That's how he can think about his mother. I mean, it's, you know. But right now, she's a plucky Miyazaki helper heroine, right? With magical fire powers.

With magical fire powers. Yeah. And then he finally is led to natsuko who is surrounded by paper well so spirits basically in a bed the lead up to that is that then they she knows where natsuko is and it's like the castle the parakeet all these doors that like lead to other places yes again this is all imagery like the paper paper is from Sparrowed Away. Like the doors, I feel like he's done that kind of imagery before.

And also we didn't mention Mahito sleeping beneath the table protected by the dolls of the elderly women. Oh, he's got this sort of little wooden, yeah. It's like, don't touch them.

They're protecting you. And it's these older women who are these generations passed down. That's so beautiful and we've also not mentioned too that part of this and I mentioned it

because it's thematic is that to make the arrow, he needs the help of an old man that also lives at the estate and he trades cigarettes for the aid. Who you say

is not the same old man. It might be. Oh, it is? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You can look it up. I mean, he's my favorite character. My favorite character is just

whoever the man is that waves in the first scene when they're walking by. Whether that's his entire role or it's the same as this guy, that's your favorite character. Yes, exactly. That's the best character

in all of Miyazaki's films. What do you make of this? Revelation of the mother... No, sorry, the aunt. Lying in repose, surrounded by these paper spirits, and he tries to get her, and she's like,

get away from me. Yeah. And the paper kind of like, you know, sort of shoots them out. Yeah. I don't know what to make of this. Or at least I have not yet fully unpacked

what's really going on. And again, there's no right or wrong answer, right? This is, Miyazaki himself even says he doesn't know exactly what it is. My read on it is that so much of this is the subconscious of this boy, right? Right. And what he pines for most dearly

is a connection to a mother figure. Sure. And his greatest fear is rejection of that right right deep within this castle inside to her and she was like no by the way yes if he was like if he calls her mom and she rejects him in some way that will be a second loss of mother that he has experienced right and so to me part of this is that he has to go and face that fear to a certain extent. And that's also when he refers to his mother at the end of that scene, correct?

He calls her mom. Isn't that the moment? He calls her mom at the end. Right, right, right. When he's like being shooed away, you mean? Yeah, I believe so. But like he has to face this dark moment. And his mother, in the form of He-Me,

tells him, don't go in there. And part of that, I think, is that childhood thing of facing these fears that we create within ourselves. We are like, listen, this is weird to say, but as an adult, I had to reckon with this just this past week at a moment where I realized, I want to hug my family

more. And there's a part of my adult self that feels like, oh, adults don't need to hug that much. And I'm like, but that won't always be there. And you're gaming this out in your head in a way you don't as a child, where it is instinctual. Sure. Yeah.

And so then... Behavioral. A part of it is there is this Sure. Yeah. And so then... Behavioral. And a part of it is there is this weird id fear of rejection there. Right. That doesn't... That's not logical. Right.

It's a subconscious thing. Am I wrong? I mean, look, clearly... What? I had a harder time connecting dots on this movie than you did, and David has seen it twice now.

But I almost viewed it partially as, even with it being dots on this movie than you did, and David has seen it twice now. But, um, I almost viewed it partially as even with it being in his unconscious or subconscious, that part of the rejection from the aunt is that he does not, he has

not gotten to know her well enough to even test having a relationship with her. Right. Right? There are like depths to plumb in him developing a relationship with a childhood version of his mother because that was someone he truly knew. There has been whatever arm's length at the

sort of like resistance to the idea of the aunt occupying this space that as much as he does need someone to step in and fill the mother role, he's resistant to letting her take that because part of accepting that is pushing his mother away from that spot

in a more permanent way. And it's this whole battle of like, is there a way to go back and get my mother? Can I spend time with my mother in a different form? Or am I looking towards trying to save my aunt and preserve her in this place? Right. How do you balance that?

Again, just to re-underline it, there's no right or wrong answer in any of this stuff. No, there is. There's clues, Easter eggs, and so on and so forth. It's the carpet. The artist is leaving us clues.

That's the joy of it. These are these art objects. And when an artist plumbs from their depth and also brings in collective artists, right? The collective consciousness of a group of people making something. Things are put into that work that are without explanation

and that are connected to this universal feeling that we have. And so each person can project onto that whatever they need. That's the point of art, right? Everyone projects onto it what they need from it in that moment that whatever they need that's the point of art right everyone projects onto it what they need from it in that moment and I think that's really beautiful

nonetheless this is a film made by an 80 plus year old master yeah in which the next scene is him going to the top of the castle or whatever and meeting an old man who like you say has the most most cursed Jenga tower of all time.

Just bad. Just poorly thought out. It's a bunch of fucking bridges and balls. The balls are the thing where you're just like, right. Yeah. Don't even introduce that into the vocabulary. But he's this wizard. Yeah. Grand uncle who is family of the main character

and explains that he has created this entire world. There's this backstory, by the way, that we get in a sort of, we leave the fantasy world for a second where the maid tells the dad, like, a meteor landed here. And that's like the origin of this. Yeah, that this castle is a giant meteor

actually that's landed. And that they built a castle around the meteor. And the meteor, the castle actually is just surrounding this meteor. And then also that the mother went, spent a year inside this castle just like our main character did

and then returned and acted as though nothing had ever occurred inside that castle. I can't tell if I am misremembering this because this film has been in the pipeline for so long without him clearly sort of expressing at early points

what the movie was. I don't know if it changed or whatever. But I remember when we talked about this back when we were doing the series, that part of his statement of why he was coming back and making another film was that he felt there was something he needed to like impart onto children.

Yeah. Not in sort of a lesson way, but in much the same way that like so many of the films came out of i met a girl who was my my friend's daughter and spirit of the way was influenced by her yes i'll read so the again miyazaki never really says anything but so suzuki said miyazaki is making the new film for his grandson it's his way of saying grandpa is moving on to the next world, but he's leaving behind this film. Thank you.

Now, with no context, that just sounded, you were just like, oh my God, most devastating movie of all time incoming or whatever. Well, especially when the title was, how do you live? Right.

Well, here's another quote that I love. Yeah. The mission of my, this is him talking about this film. Yeah. The mission of my films is to comfort you, this film. Yeah. The mission of my films is to comfort you, to fill in the gap

that might be in your heart or your everyday life. When he was asked about the answer to the Japanese title of his movie, How Do You Live? Miyazaki responded,

I am making this movie because I do not have the answer. Yeah. It would be cool if he did though. But even, the Spirited Away thing

where he was like, there's something I'm seeing in this girl that I don't see in movies, and how do I, like, capture that, and do I need to put it back out there for this girl or for girls like her, what it is? It does feel like he's grappling with, like, things he wants to communicate to specific people. That is the way he's thinking about his legacy.

Not in what is this company after I die, not how is my body of work seen, but like that the films are trying to engage in, not provide answers or morals, but engage in conversations with specific people or types of people in a way that is so much of what this final section of the film is about, of like, why do you need to maintain this tower

or build a new tower? I also think it's interesting in starting point and turning point, especially around the time of Howl's Moving Castle and Spirit Away, around 9-11, a lot of people were asking Miyazaki about it and how much it inspired Howl's Moving Castle

and all this stuff. He talks a lot about his belief of how children are not allowed the room to be children in modern era. That's a lot of his interviews in the early 2000s. It's about how he thinks that the educational early childhood system has failed children in a large way. Which is also interesting coming from someone who grew up during a world war, you know, like during wartime, let's say. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, there was a lot of institutional shifts that were happening in terms of how much was dictated by the government versus not it's like very interesting stuff going on um he's mentioned this film also of wanting to hand it down to his grandchildren is something that he's mentioned not his children his grandchildren exactly he's he's skipping a certain someone yeah look the grand uncle presents a giant floating stone to his son. He's like, look, that's where my power comes from. Not his son, his, you know, his grand great nephew. Great nephew.

And he's like, I want you to continue my work. I need someone from my bloodline to be in charge of this. I could, you know, the stone created everything. And I've got to move on. Like, I'm. Yeah. I'm sundowning. I'm waiting for the guy to come in and take over this shit.

And I have to give it to someone who is from my bloodline and also without malice right but he also there's this energy to the grand uncle of like the world can be fixed you can make it more harmonious like here's a you can add one of the tremendous amount of pressure on him not only is he saying I need you to take over this but he's

saying by the way do what I couldn't do which is solve this permanently and And what do we know about him? That he read too many books and went mad. Yep. Yes. And so you're not trusting this guy. He's a little scary. And that's a really interesting detail. I'm glad you brought that up. They

bring up how he read too many books and went mad. And then now the thing that he's passing down is, here's this lopsided tower of stones that I've made. Right. And I need someone to hand this down to

who's from my bloodline and also who is like, untouched and perfect without flaw because I'm flawed and I need someone that's not flawed to have it. He has this line that's like, you know,

worlds are living things like mold and bugs infest them. Where I'm like, you don't seem to have a great view on like life he's gone too deep into his own thoughts David right I knocked my head over as we hit our four of this podcast but um

like I know he says something along the lines of like look it can be a paradise or an abomination you know depending on what you do but I get the vibe from him that he's just like hammering dents out of the car and he's just like i can get it smooth like you know we're close i just need to add some more uh flocks of animals to eat the other animals this is a great responsibility someone needs to maintain this

he's like i have been i've committed my life to the pursuit of a final form a sense of perfection that i did not hit but don't, I think you can do it. Yes, and he's like, it's just a horrible thing to put on. He's like, and all you have to do is you just have to add

one little thing to prop it up. And then you see this image of a piece going in and it's not like you see the piece going in and you're like, you're right,

that's what it needs. You're like, that just looks more complicated. Right, you added, you created a new angle of stability that does not solve the underlying issue.

And this guy's whole life work seems to be that like, all right, I've put this piece right here. issue. And this guy's whole life work seems to be that like, all right, I've put this piece right here. Yeah. And now I think it's a little more stable. Where did the parakeets come from again? Do we learn where they came from? I think he brought them in

and then they started reproducing. Right, because the idea is like they are out of control. Now they're a civilization and they're like, we want rights, by the way. Like, I want to conquer you or something. Like, that's the point of the Parakeet King.

Right. Have we been introduced to him at this point? The Parakeet King? No. Like, not really. Because like, it's after that confrontation that Mahito wakes up and then he's in this like Parakeet dungeon

and then they're making a giant banquet and uh his mother you know his child mother is being like brought through in like a glass coffin you only meet the parakeet king once they go up the crazy stairs right yeah uh he's the one who's like i'm gonna bring her up the stairs and i'm going to you know confront the the guy and get us parakeet rights or whatever it is the Yeah, and he's like, you two carry this thing with me. And it's this really beautiful moment where the two parakeets get to go into utopia with the Parrot King. And they're like,

is this you? Is this it? Is this the thing? This is so beautiful. And the guy's like, stop looking around. Just stay on the mission here. It is all so insane. In a great way.

And it's so beautiful. And it's like... It's like the idea being she gets them in, right? Yes. They have her so they can like cross the barrier. Because they have to deliver her to him. Right. And so because of that, they can cross the barrier into this like utopia universe.

Right. No, they... Right. They see parakeets, regular parakeets. And they're like, look, it's us, like our ancestors. Like, that's what we were. Right. Right. Yeah. And they're like, look, it's us, like our ancestors. Like, that's what we were. Right. Right, yeah.

And they're so, like, you know. They're crying. Yes. And the original ancestors are like, oh, they're just wild animals that fly around and eat fruit. And then they're these creatures who have formed this entire civilization of war and feast, you know, all this stuff. It's the unnatural order. Yeah. That we have imposed upon a natural

world. But you don't get the impression from Grand Uncle that he's like, I love those parakeets. No. What they're doing is great. No, he seems kind of disgusted with what he's created. Hopefully you can clear all that out. Yeah, right. Like a parakeet Armageddon. Oh my God. And then

what's the horror of that? At this point, I am like, that's the horror of that? You know, at this point, I am like, that's the point. The whole, this whole section of the movie is when I am crying and starting to get emotional.

What I was trying to say earlier, too, is like, I don't hit crying breakthrough points with him. I just start to spiral. Like, what you're saying,

David, is like, it's too much to grapple with. I don't, I don't, I don't, like, you're like,

right, I've reached some sort of overload point. This is starting conversations that I cannot handle in my own brain. But what's also beautiful to me is that during this, what I'm imagining, right?

Yeah. Is Miyazaki trying to communicate all of these thoughts and this room full of animators trying to be like, like this, right? I think like this, I think this is what you're trying to say. And it becomes this,

this collaborative sort of like all these people trying to help convey this message that miyazaki himself is unsure of exactly what it means or how it comes out and because of that it's like to me that that's what became so beautiful is it's these parrot creatures crying looking around at regular parrots and i'm like that's an animator that's like miyazaki's like and then the parrots, and these guys are like, yeah, okay, all right, and I'll draw this parrot. And these parrots are tall, big guys now. They're like, yes. And he's like, then I'll do that, Miyazaki-san.

It's like this, it is this moment where he is expressing all these ideas that I don't think he even knows what they are. But they are so visceral to me. but they are so visceral to me and like you said seeing a giant parrot crying as he looks at a normal sized parrot I can't tell you why but I understand it

I'm like yes Miyazaki I understand what you are saying the one part that kind of hit me emotionally that maybe just speaks to me being basic as hell. And I don't know if I'm skipping ahead too much now. But when he finally puts together

that she is his mother. Yeah. And it realizes like... Oh, I started weeping. Right. That is when I was very... Well, hold on. This is why I'm here.

This is why I've gone through this. The whole point is to change the course of her life so she doesn't go into the fire and she doesn't die. Like, how do I back to the future her out of having me, basically? Although he's not consciously saying that

and her response is, no, I look forward to being your mother. That's the moment, baby. It's the arrival thing of like, I don't care if you're telling me how this ends and how it ends poorly. It's about the journey.

And how I know we're not going to get all the time that we wanted together. Yeah. But I'd rather have that time That's not the point. than change it at all. But you're saying,

I mean, in this conversation of like, do directors have conscious final films that have worked, that have landed, that have actually been planned as their final statement

and received as their final statement. Miyazaki's trying to do that while also questioning if I'll make another movie after this and how many times before I thought I was doing this. But this is a film that is basically him saying like, I have no easy answers.

It's a final statement movie of unclarity. Yeah. Just to fill in what happens in between. Yes. Sure. He goes to see the granduncle one more time. Yeah. Granduncle's like, like, come on, man. The fucking rock stones. You gotta make them into a tower. And he was like,

he's like, these stones are cursed. And he's like, all right, here's these stones that aren't cursed. Right. And he's holding the stone and the little totem of the maid. Right. Or is that later? I'm going home. Yeah. I'm gonna go home. I don't want to deal with this. And the granduncle's like, you would go back to's like, I'm going home. I'm going to go home. I don't want to deal with this.

And the granduncle's like, you would go back to this terrible world? And he's like, yes. I'm going home with my mother, referring to his aunt. And he's like, fine, go home. But before you do it, please stack the stones. And he's like, I don't want to. And then the parrot king shows up and is like, fucking this is it?

Like, stupid, this is our fate? Yes. And so he just like, the parrot guy shows up and is like fucking this is it like stupid this is our fate yes and so he just like the parrot guy puts it together everything starts to go crazy the floating rocks and also crumble we missed the moment where he points to the scar on his head and explains that he is flawed yeah he does right that he's not perfect he's full of flaw and that he's pointing to the scar on his head and then that's when i think is it the grand who is it that says like i have a scar too sure the grand uncle the grand uncle is like oh i have a i have a similar scar which is like i'm like yeah we got this like everyone's working through these things these generational things and then yeah he's like he doesn't want by his own creations the parakeets are what actually like blows up essentially. And that's what's beautiful also is that the boy doesn't want to take over the weird,

fucked up Jenga that his grand uncle has magic. I'm not going to try and fix your legacy and maintain it or whatever. I'm going to go home with my mother. My new mother. This is my mother now. The person who I'm going to say that this is who I want. And then they emerge with the parakeets and they cover everyone in poop. This is my mother. Right. Yes. The person who I'm going to say that this is who I want.

And then they emerge with the parakeets and they cover everyone in poop. Right. Yes. Back into the real world. Big parakeet man tries to build a thing. I told you.

Yes. But then the whole, that whole world starts to collapse. It starts to collapse and the parakeet man chops it in half and it explodes and then, yeah,

they got to get out of there. The whole tower collapses. And then that's that moment where they're at the doors, which are the, like, the Beetlejuice doors that lead to different realms of reality or whatever. But it's also sort of like, does everyone go back to their timeline

to where they belong? Right. And that's the moment that truly, that really, I mean, it was so, that she would choose to, beautiful, and then he that she would choose to, beautiful. And then he steps back out into home and then all the parakeets go with them. But they're regular parakeets.

They're not evil, crazy, giant parakeets. Batistas. Yes. They're not big Batistas. They're not big Batistas. If only they were. Bunch of Batistas. That's it.

They were. A bunch of Batistas. That's it. And then it's the the rare sort of like Miyazaki epilogue, which is the like the war ended two years later. Right.

And they went back to the city. Right. And that's play the song. Get the fuck out of here. Right. He says that he gets it's weird.

He does the Ferris Bueller thing where he's like you're still in the theater get out of here he comes out smoking a cigarette but here's what I think is really fascinating yeah the wind rises ends with the character literally being like go live life like you know yeah like maybe your work is

gonna be used for evil but like the best you can do is the best you can do and like you just gotta like live and horrible things why you have to to like live in horrible things. And you have to just like keep living. Sure. And this film ends not with a character telling us that,

but characters doing that. Sure. Just continuing on. I think in The Wind Rises, he's less sure about it. Yes. And here he's like, to me,

what I got, and again, there's no right or wrong answer. Miyazaki himself doesn't even really know. But to me, what I got, and again, there's no right or wrong answer. Miyazaki himself doesn't even really know. But to me, what I got was a sense of like, you just enter into this world with all of these baggage and flaws and scars that you're going to pick up along the way and things that will get in your way, but also drive you. And it's this complicated thing.

Enter into a world that is overwhelming, that is on the verge of toppling over and collapsing. Yeah. And you try to create some sort of structure and order. And there is a hope that you can pass that down and that will be meaningful. Right. But part of the process of growing up is learning that you can choose to go your own way and accept or reject or take with you any aspects of that journey. And there's some things you can change. There's some things you can't. But your only option is to continue living your life and not letting those things take over. I think there's another thing, too, which is, is your life's work being able to communicate the answers that you have spent your

life working toward? Or is it being able to express the journey of you trying to work through these questions, which in its way provides people the answers of feeling less alone? That this is basically the underlying, like the purest state of the human condition. Yes. And so for all hands to come together to make this film,

which is this person, an older person who has said publicly, everyone in my life, all of my family members died at age 80 and I'm 83 or whatever. 82. 82. That's right.

Happy birthday. Happy birthday. For him to be like, lay hands on this idea and help me tell this, that everyone is allowed to move forth and do what they need to do and I don't need to hand down.

It's a flawed idea to think that I can create some structure that will solve all the problems in the world and hand that down. I think it's such a beautiful idea. And what it brings me back to is the ending of Nausicaa. Where the end of Nausicaa

is that someone can be so pure and so perfect and so connected to the earth that the earth will, in kind, resolve all of the issues and create this... Rise up to help you.

Sure. Stasis and this handshake that will solve the problem. Because it's his way of thinking about the environment in so many of his movies. Right. And Miyazaki has often said

that he wishes he didn't end Nausicaa that way. And I would say the ending of this film is how he wishes he had ended Nausicaa? Is the exact opposite of that.

Sure. It's not that if you're pure enough and good enough that all will work out and be resolved. He's telling a story here where it's like

no one is pure enough or good enough. That's part of living life. Nothing ever gets resolved. Yes. Part of life is being scarred and being imperfect and that's part of it. Yeah. And I think that's so beautiful to then see that theme transition

through his work. Having just watched them all chronologically, it is such a beautiful, beautiful career that he's built that tells this story. I often think about how people will sometimes criticize filmmakers. And this is a feeling that I have globally across all art. People criticize filmmakers

for making the same film over and over again. It's like, that's just the same movie. They just keep making the same movie over and over again. Those are my favorite types of filmmakers. Because to me, that means that there's something inside themselves that's compelling them to tell that story. And it's something that they're wrestling with.

And every film, every chapter of that struggle is them hopefully learning a new thing or testing a new theory around that. By the way, sometimes people will suggest, why haven't they covered blank? Have they ever considered doing a miniseries on blank? The people that David and I disregard the most as they would not be interesting to talk about

are the people who do not do that. Which is not to say the people who make wildly different types of films. It's the people who make films that might seem interesting in how could all this come out of one person, but they don't by and large feel like they are honest extensions of

what that person is going through. They are jobs. And perhaps jobs well done. Right. You know? But box office game, this movie's going to get its ass kicked by Beyonce. Yeah, it's going to be a rough box office game.

I was trying to think of the best way to do that joke and there's not any movie opening against this movie. Yeah, Miyazaki's going to go into his Oprah opening weekend of Beloved. I just ate a bunch of mac and cheese and got depressed that Beyonce was beating me. I really thought I had number one in the US. Luck. Oh, man.

But isn't it such a beautiful career that he's built? No, I think that fucking sucks. What are you talking about? I love Beyonce. Yes, I agree with you. After watching the movie, I was so overwhelmed by this being the end. I was not really overwhelmed by this being the end. I was not really overwhelmed by this being the end.

I was relieved that the film was so meaningful and that I already had so many feelings about it. Because I was a little worried just like, God, you know, he's never made a movie I dislike, but what if this feels minor or kind of... Messy. Messy in a way that doesn't really exc, you know, excite anything in me. And instead I was like,

I can't stop thinking about all the stuff bubbling in that movie. I think this is a beautiful, I think this is like, it's not, it's funny. Yesterday I was talking to Ben Griffin. I was like, Oh,

maybe we should talk about like our Miyazaki rankings. And I'm like, I have no interest in Miyazaki rankings. Because to me, it's a body of work. I have no idea. Yeah. I don't know.

To me, it's the, and watch them chronologically. It's,, it's a body of work. I have no idea. Yeah, I don't know. To me, it's the body. And watch them chronologically. It tells such a story. Seeing all the protagonists change and evolve, getting to this point, it's so amazing.

I know. I know you do. Of course I do. Because your job is to have that kind of stuff. It's not my job. I'm sick. I'm sick.

Your job, I forgot your job is being sick. Your job is a sicko, full-time sicko. We need to end this episode. Ben, how long have we been gone?

I shudder to ask. And obviously, we took a couple breaks. Yeah, I'm going to guess that we're at about three hours and ten minutes. All right. So, you know, longest ish episode ever, but not quite the record breaker. In the zip code. Not that we were aiming for breaking any records.

No, we put some ads in there, you know. I also don't feel like we're stretching. I think we're just talking about the thing. There's so much we haven't talked about. I mean, it's incredible. Here's one thing can I add. Violator. We didn't touch on him at all.

I felt at moments the dynamic between the boy and the heron reminded me of Spawn and Violator. And I don't, it's not a box I want to open this late in the episode. It's the kind of thing that you can get in a lot of trouble for saying because it's too bold and too intelligent. I would say one of the best... If they cancel me, I'll go to Daily Wire and I'll announce it every day. I would say one of the best Leguizamo performances.

Yes. No, it's funny. It's funny and it's warm. It's a warm, inviting performance. Can I say something that really interests me as someone who has gone through a lot of career ennui recently? We have to be done. I'm not saying that in an aggressive way. Yes, you are.

I'm saying in a practical way. You're holding a gun up to his head. I'm incredibly hungry and we have another episode to record and I have to be home in time for my kid. I'm just saying all of that stuff on the record. Future boy Conan, age 37. Okay. What do you think? That was his first directorial debut.

Oh, I'm 37. 37 years old. I'm 37. Should I start my career as a beloved actor? You're Miyazaki here. It really actually made me feel good to realize that because we... Because you think of him as being old, but it's like, right, but that's his storied career. He must have started when he was 18 years old.

And it's like, no. And there's a lot of, you know, the adulation of like the wunderkind, whatever. And it's like... He had his slut era too. I'm sorry? Imagining like Miyazaki in his 20s being like, Wah! Party!

I'll animate when I'm 30! It's funny because in Starting Point, you know, he does all these essays where he's in his 20s, he's working. He's just a TV animator at that point. And he's like throwing 20s he's working he's just a TV animator at that point and he's like throwing fucking shade at Disney

and he's like really aggressive and you're like yeah this is someone who's 28 who's just like it's also a bad era for Disney

you kick them when they're down and he's a career animator who's just like yeah that's bad animation and actually that's bad you know but they're like

his sloppy Tumblr thoughts exactly 100% he's just throwing throwing strays. So I love that he started his career at 37, 38 years old. I think that's really wonderful. I think he lived, it says in his Wikipedia page, he lived in an 80 square foot apartment

when he was in his 20s working as an animator. It's pretty small. Yeah. Goes for like 10,000 a month in New York City. So we can't even play the box office game because the box office, or I guess the... Did it come out last weekend? The thing is it did eventually have this weird limited release, right?

On Thanksgiving weekend. But it came out officially on the 4th. Right. There was a one or two day IMAX run and then there was a limited run and then it's going wide in a couple of days from the time we're recording this. Its personal result is not

listed, but the Thanksgiving box office was number one, a film starring a friend of the pod. Hunger Games. The Ballad of Songs and Snakes. Birds and Snakes. Hunger Games, The Ballad of Buster Scruggs. Has anyone seen apart from me?

I'm still hungry. I have not yet fed my appetite. I think we can't underestimate how funny it is to add The Ballad of Buster Scruggs as a subtitle. That is a really good point. The Hunger Games,

The Ballad of Buster Scruggs. Because we don't think about that as a subtitle. Buster Scruggs also would do well in The Hunger Games. The guy's a dead shot. Well, but he ultimately was undone by his own vanity

and his commitment to songs. But you know how for a while the story of many Hunger Games competitors, they're always fucking singing. That's true. You're like, you're in an arena, god damn it. Fuck, you're right. Buster Scruggs was built for the Hunger Games. That kind of like hack thing is like something to Electric Boogaloo. This is what I'm saying.

Hypercube. 2X, 2Y. That's our own hack version. But you're like, what if the entire, what we know of as its own proper title is in fact good fodder for other sequel subtitles. Anyway, Hunger Games Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes, so good.

And just the kind of thing where you're like, yes, we're cooking with, you know, this is better. Like, let's go back to this. A better time of franchise, as you're saying? Yeah. It's place before. It's a prequel. It's a prequel.

It's the Adventures of Young Donald Sutherland. Correct. Number two at the box office. You know, a gigantic epic. Napoleon. Napoleon. Colon, The Ballad of Buster Scruggs. Right.

Yes, he made Buster Scruggs the governor of Italy. It didn't work out for him, obviously. A whole movie about a dessert? Yeah. Okay. Number three at the box office. One of the most embarrassing flops in recent memory. For a studio that's just been releasing

embarrassing flops. Colin, the Ballad Buster Scruggs. They're now trying to edit him in. Just anything to give them some juice. Juice the numbers. Scruggs is in it? I can't remember if it was you guys or someone else.

Probably a parasitist was talking about how at the end of Wish, they have all the pencil drawings of the original Disney characters. As if to be like, and you know, Wish is now a part of that. Wish is the Little Mermaid. Wish is Pixar Theory the movie.

It is, what if these are all connected? Really? I have no idea. Where do Wishes come from? All these Disney characters have wished for things. It's tying together the wish-averse. Like, literally, she becomes the fucking wish star. It doesn't matter. Okay. Number four, the box office. It matters a lot. Don't say that.

We can end the episode, and I know you want to get this over with, but don't pretend it doesn't matter. Are you guys not hungry? Genuine question. I'm starving. I told you I'm hungry for Hunger Games. So you're saying, do the water people live next to the fire people? Different neighborhoods.

Different neighborhoods. Also, the water people seem to live in skyscrapers. I don't know. Yes. Are there lightning people? No. No, that'd be great. That would be a great idea.

Bring them in. Lightning's not an element. That's the problem. By their rules. Well, the cloud people get lightning when they're angry true like if the team they root for

in skyball what are the elements air water earth and fire so it's clouds dirt what about hearts I was gonna say

that's Captain Planet Erasure no yeah well that's fine number four the box office an animated film

that made almost as much as Wish in its second weekend uh it's a Trolls World Tour no Trolls Band Together thank a Trolls World Tour. No.

Trolls Band Together. Thank you. Trolls. It was the second one. Ballad of Buster Scruggs. I have yet to see them band together. I texted this to you, but you sang the Disney's Calamitous Year. February,

Quantumania comes out and people are like, P, you, look at this fucking atomic bomb. And now Disney's like, if we could have something gross half a billion dollars, we would be thrilled.

How are we having multiple movies end up less than a hundred? And to have Leo eat their lunch. Leo is so good. I watched Leo twice with my niece and nephew. Leo rules, right? It's good. It's fucking got jokes. Number five at the box office, a horror film that already has a sequel announced.

Thanksgiving. Yeah. It's probably in there somewhere. In part two, yeah. Number six, The Marvels. You saw The Marvels. I did. Ben saw it 50 times. Exactly 50 times. Really? Number seven, The Holdovers, which has been doing surprisingly crisp.

Maybe not surprisingly, but healthy business. Yeah, which is why I'm excited that it's going to VOD in two days. Yeah, whatever. No one even notices. Everything sucks. Okay. Number eight, yeah, the Heiress tour, which made tons of money. Good for Taylor. Maybe my

only good choice in the Voltaire draft. Taking a lot of L's recently. Number nine, Salt Burn. Haven't seen it. It's a movie for silly abilities, in my opinion. Is it, like, in the Salt Bae universe? Yes. If only.

Yeah. Finally, something salt-connected that's worse than Salt Bae has been created. We saw Boy in the Hair and Angelica. They proudly advertise the collectible Salt Burn cup while supplies last.

I've seen two movies of Angelica in the last week. It seems the supplies have run out. No, they're gone. It's like a buddy journey between Salt Bae and Ken Burns. Number 10 is a horror film. Where Ken Burns gives

Salt Bae a haircut advice. That's where the haircut came from. He salted it. Number 10 is a horror film. It's a different horror film? Yeah, huge hit of the year. It's a huge hit of the year? Fuck. Gen Z loves it. It's not Freddy. It is Freddy.

Five Nights at Freddy's. Number 11. Next School Wins. Culling the bell and Buster Scruggs. Next School Wins. Doing great. Number 12.

Priscilla, which has made 20 million dollars. Yeah. Also that movie rules. But it's also like a movie where you're like, you know,

that's a tough hang of a movie intentionally. Yes. And like, God bless him for making 20 million bucks on it. Yeah. No, well done. Anyway. One of the best films of the year.

JD, you know I love you. Love you too. And I'm excited to record another episode with you. I know. In about 20 minutes. What do you think about Ben and I? You're my favorites. You are.

But you don't love us? I love you very much. Okay, thank you. It's important to say sometimes it's important to hug the people you love in your life sometimes. I'm big on it. Love you guys.

Love you. Thanks for coming to talk. My stomach is actually going like this. The thing I want to say, but I did a buttered bagel eight hours ago. It's like all the food I've eaten today. I had banana bread. The bit I want to say,

but I didn't, but anytime you mentioned Goro Miyazaki, I imagine Goro from Mortal Kombat. I do too. It's like all the food I've eaten today. I had banana bread. The bit I want to say but I didn't but anytime you mentioned Goro Miyazaki I imagined Goro from Mortal Kombat. I do too. And it's funny to imagine. He's the one with the multiple arms.

Yeah. That's a signal for you to wrap us up. Oh sure. Ben. I just wanted to say love you guys. Love you.

Hey Ben, love you. Thank you all for listening and we love most of you. Our listeners. 90%. 90%. 90%. And if you're wondering if you're part of it,

tell yourself you are. Tell yourself you're part of the 90. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty, our associate producer, helping keep the show running. Thank you to AJ McKeon, Alex Barron, for our editing. JJ Birch for doing nothing this week. Fuck you to AJ McKeon, Alex Barron for our editing. JJ Birch for doing

nothing this week. Fuck you, JJ. Fuck you, JJ. JJ will not text us four times in the hour after this episode drops going I mean, I thought it was funny and I did laugh, but I want to make sure you guys aren't actually angry at me, right? Sorry, JJ. Yeah, and also, JJ,

fuck you. Fuck you. Thank you. Now you, too. Yeah, you rock. Lee Montgomery in the American novel for a theme song. What? You're just like, you gotta tell people that love each other. Yeah, yeah. And like, within 20 seconds, you're just going off

on your audience, your fellow co-workers. JJ has to get knocked out of bed. But by the way, Joe Bone, Pat Reynolds, we love you. You can go to Blankjack.com for some links to some real nerdy shit, including our Patreon Blankjack special features

where, hey, we're talking the walk. Something that's going to happen right after this and will definitely be normal. It's going to be so fucking normal. This was no bits oh baby wait for that one and as always just kidding AJ we love you

we love you you fucking stinky piece of shit what the energy shit but sincerely with 100% honesty fuck you and we say that with love we say that with love you motherfuckers do that all day