Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Color of Money with Chris Ryan

Episode Date: October 4, 2026

Famously, 1986's The Color of Money was a money gig for Scorsese after a bunch of big-budget bounces. But it sure as hell doesn't feel like one! Chris Ryan joins us to talk about the original legacyquel, which passed the torch from Newman to Cruise. We're also chatting snooker, Atlantic City, and Warren Zevon this week, so grab your balabushka and chalk. It's in the way that you use it. Get your hands on Minnesota Fats: Pool Legend. Check out Amsterdam Billiards. Watch Sandler do Werewolves of London. Listen to David discuss the novelization of Species and Species 2 on the Authorized podcast. Listen to The Physical Media High Council episode. Listen to The Watch, The Big Picture and The Rewatchables Read Chris' Dad's Writing Sign up for Check Book, the Blank Check newsletter featuring even more “real nerdy shit” to feed your pop culture obsession. Dossier excerpts, film biz AND burger reports, and even more exclusive content you won’t want to miss out on. Join our Patreon for franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter, Instagram, Threads and Facebook!  Buy some real nerdy merch Connect with other Blankies on our Reddit or Discord For anything else, check out BlankCheckPod.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You got to have two things to podcast. You got to have brains and you got to have balls. And you got too much of one and not enough of the other. It's hard to do old Newman. It's a very distinct voice. Yeah, good. Yeah, he's got that, you know, how do you do that? Come on.

Because it does feel like the second he, he obviously was a man who went gray early. But there was the moment where the switch flipped and he was like, I'm elder statesman now. And he added some sort of patrician. kind of effect to his voice. But when does old Newman begin? Is it Butch Cassidy?

Is it the Sting? No, I'm saying later. Verdict? Sting? He's playing mentor. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's when it begins. But then he's still kind of badass.

I'm like, is it verdict? Is it verdict? The verdict, he's old. Yes, that's for sure. No, but like absence of malice, he's the same vibe, right? Maybe it's that. But you know what I'm saying?

The voice changes. He becomes Doc Hudson. it gets a little gravelly. It gets a little, there's a little cigar. Yeah, but what about like slap shot? It's like, I guess, you know what? He's a man who aged perfectly. He did.

Like every single decade. He wasn't the Tom Cruise thing of like, I'm fucking clinging on and clinging on like, and then by collateral, he's like, what if I show you a glimpse and then I'll pull it back? Oh, okay. Here's a question that I'm certain our guest can answer. And I think you can answer as well, David.

I have never seen Ford Apache the Bronx. absence of malice feels to me like the earliest I can identify he is playing old man What is the voice like in Fort Apache? I don't remember the voice but he's definitely like a veteran in that right like he's like the old fucking drunk

at the office precinct and then they're gonna have to shoot a bunch of I think that there's also like a a relationship to how much a character drinks in the movie that dictates the voice right like how gravelly does he want to go because he well like Quintet

What's he like in that? I just remember him being cold. Yeah, that's a cold-ass movie. I think it's an 80-thing. I think it's the second he enters the 80s. And as you said, he aged perfectly. And I think one of the things that people study about Paul Newman is how distinct his eras were without bumps where he kept adjusting to the time. And identifying correctly, what is the best movie star I could be right now?

How do I fit the culture? I think this is only our second Paul Newman film we've ever discussed. after the Hudsucker proxy. Which Hudsucker, he's obviously doing full-on old man, but also full-on evil. He's playing sort of the comedic, the comedically heightened version of this guy. What's your favorite Newman? Is it this? Well, I would probably say it's this or slap shot.

Yeah. I mean, that's a really hard question because the second you asked that, five movies jump into the front of my mind. It's not 10, yeah. But it's this slap shot verdict. verdict, I think, is his best performance. I agree. It's the one he should have won the Oscar for, right? Not to be rude to today's film, but that's...

Who beats him that year? Ben Kingsley. Yeah. Can't beat him. We always come up against this. It's like, it's just a lot of those Newman losses. Yeah. You're like, well, how did he lose?

And then you're like, oh, I guess that was a big one. We've covered a couple of these films where you go, I don't understand how it's possible Nick Nolty didn't win best actor for Prince of Tides. oh, it was the silence of the lambs here. Because you're like... The most historic buzzsaw is the only thing that could have beaten this performance.

How did he lose for HUD? He lost to Sidney Poitier. How did he lose for Cool Hand Luke? Which he may be like, you know, maybe that's it. He loses to Rod Steiger for in the heat of the night.

Stiger's a legend. That movie wins best picture. Major film. Yeah. It's a major film. Yeah. But it's also like he's also up against Warren Beatty for Bonnie and Clyde

and Dustin Hoff. for the graduate. So it's like there's three young stars all in kind of their most iconic role. Right. But then it's interesting because he's... And so the Oscars are just like Stiger. He's the older guy. You say young star, but there's a big difference between Beatty and Hoffman are breaking

through at a whole new level. That's Newman identifying his second phase, arguably. That's the whole thing. It's like he was the one guy who really successfully without a hit. made the transition from being a studio system star to a new Hollywood star by seeming like the cool, slightly older guy who gets it.

The way that he kind of treats age in a lot of his movies from like the late 60s on, or early 70s on, is always really interesting to me because I think in Slapshot, he's supposed to be playing somebody who's like 41. Right. Who's at the absolute end of the line,

like as a hockey player. but is like he looks like he's 60 and then in color of money I think he's supposed to be in his 60s but looks kind of like a guy who could be like 45 at times, you know, like the way he dresses, the way he moves. It's fascinating.

And he obviously remained unbelievably handsome until his dying day. But there's a lot of power in the fact that he didn't fight it, right? That he didn't try to look younger, that he wasn't worried about seeming cool or hot. I think this is part of what made him survive was that it was like, he could always play, oh, it's surprising how much this guy

still kind of got it. Versus being like, he's trying to act a little more he's got it than he is. Yeah, like all those movies that, like, he kind of capped his career with, I felt like he was incredibly comfortable in his own skin. He may not have been. But like, when he's making, like, what, nobody's fool and stuff like that, you're just like... Cars, you're just like... I mean, it was that, like, metallic sheen felt so natural.

on him. Doc Hudson, that grill. He wore it with such comfort and grace. I've never seen any cars. Well, he's the local judge of a town. He's also a car. He used to be a race car. He was the fabulous Hudson Hornet and unfortunately he made a mistake. He

turned too hard. David. Is that what it is? I don't know. I'd love it to stop. Is that what it is? He turned too hard. I've seen it out. It was like he basically was, he invented drifting is kind of the tragic backstory of cars. Is he really?

Kind of. Like American drifting, not Tokyo drifting. Correct. Have you seen cars? I have. So it's like Lightning McQueen. Lightning McQueen's like, I want to be the Piston Cup champion or whatever. And he's like, well, I was that.

And he's like, fuck you. No, you weren't. He's like, I've got the trophies right here, bitch. And then he's got all these like 50s trophies. Cars' is Doc Hollywood basically beat for beat. But the reveal is that the grumpy old man in town who's like, I force you to community service is like, actually, I used to be the best racer in the world. Right.

And then he sees him out in the desert just fucking drifting. Right. And Owen Wilson's like, what? You're trying to do that. I can't believe that. And he's like, there was a fault in my tires. You know, I auditioned for nobody's fool, right? You've told this story many times.

Did you really? Your only audition, right? I think so. I mean, audition is too strong. But, like, they came to my school. I also forgot you auditioned for Elizabeth Salander. But that was such a big casting call. And I pierced my nipple.

For Fincher. No, for Fincher. And Fincher was like, Rooney already did that. I'm not impressed. But people forget just how wide that casting net was. No, nobody's fool was when you were still living in New York, right? Because that movie came out in 94. They came to PS-87 and they just talked to a bunch of kids.

I mean, I assume they were just, you know, casting a net for... I don't even know who the kid is. Sometimes I push back. And I acknowledge. the privilege I have experienced in my life. But sometimes I push back on what I feel like from our listeners as an attitude of everything in New York is like dainty little privileged bubble shit.

And then I consider the fact that basically if you are a child in any school in New York City, at some point you probably get lassoed into an audition. I mean, it was just a public school. But yeah, I mean, I do think, yeah. Like movies that would film in like the tri-state area, maybe it happens less now in the era of fucking self-tapes and zooms and whatever.

But I would say, like, through the 2000s, there was a kind of, like, New York City, if they're looking for a kid and the director's like, we want someone who's not polished. Right. They would just, like, put up flyers at every single school. Yeah, they would shoot that stuff around here, too. Like, they shot, like, basketball diaries. I can't remember if it was at my wife's school or if it was at the, like, adjacent boys' school. But it was like, they were, they were just Hollywood East. They were just letting a rip.

The role went to Alexander Goodwin. who then appeared in Box of Moonlight and Mimic. That could have been you. Could have been me? That was about it. Yeah. Anyway, you should watch Cars. Okay.

No. Should I, like, now and then I'll come back? Yeah. Well, what is that, an 85-minute movie? I mean, he'll... No, it's long. Oh, God, it's almost two hours long. That movie is so bad.

It's really bad. It's like indefensible. Well, but here's the thing. Cars 2 is so much worse. And then Cars 3 isn't great, but it's so much of... a rebound that I would argue that Cars 2 makes Cars 3 look like Cars 1.

Do you come out of cars thinking car excellence is not about excellent driving? I mean, that is what the movie's about. Okay. You mean kind of the F1 argument of like, what's the driver really doing here? Well, more just like you have to be a study of human moves, you know?

That is what the movie is about. You know, I only seen F1 once, and I didn't realize that it wasn't picking up what you were putting down. I'll say it's even more, it's about the driver. It's about the heart of the driver. It's about the character of the driver.

This movie has good dialogue. Yeah. This movie? Yes. Yes. And I would say the lesson of cars and the lesson of the color of money is, it's in the way that you use it. I.

Which, to be clear, is not actually a light of dialogue in the script. No. Although it would be cool. It would be funny if Cruz is like, I got any advice and Numa went One day if I curate you know, rep screenings or whatever at my local theater that I own

in this paradise world I imagine, right? Where I'm like, ah, David's here. This would be part of a series that I would like to think about of like movies where you want to live the objectively, like, stressful low life of the people involved. Like you watch it and you're like, what's cooler than being a pool,

hustler who lives at bars. And it's like, excuse me, that's not a good life. You don't want it. I'm like, no, I think I want to hang out with these guys all the time. I was rewatching the hustler the other night and texting you guys about it. And I said, this is just the best life possible, right? You got a perfect face

and you're a piece of shit. Your life sucks. I think that the festival could be like, I want to live inside of this. Yes. And a lot of it is, that's the key. It's like you're watching movie stars. play this. You're watching people with supernatural charisma and incredible good looks live through objectively the dregs. Yeah, they're exchanging 20s. Like, it's just like guys smoking and being

like, you owe me 20. Now you owe me 40. The hustler is also a tragedy. Like, I forgot how much that movie is straight up, bummer. A tragedy. It's a guy whose life is broken and in trying to sort of solve himself. He experiences greater tragedy. And that's all the backstory for this movie, which is so interesting that he doesn't give the big monologue explaining what happened

in the first film. Kid, I was a hustler. He sort of all lords to it. Yeah. If Piper Lorry shows up in your movie, nothing good's happening. It would be funny if they did like one legacy sequel like, your next opponent is Minnesota Fats. And then you like, you know, outcomes from the shadows,

Gleason, old, I mean, was Gleason's so a lot? you know. So. Because he's obviously in like smoking and the band of stuff, right? There was a.

He was, oh, one year from death. Yeah. Gleas and dies the next year. But this is the whole backstory. Yes.

Okay. Well, no, no, tell me, because I haven't looked at the dust. We'll get through it

more in depth, but there was a sequel book called the color of money. They basically only take the title from it. But the book has major Minnesota fats. Which makes sense if you're

going to write a sequel to the hustler. Like, even when they start developing scripts and go like, throw all that out, start fresh. They kept writing in parts for Minnesota Fats. And Newman was like, I think we should get Gleason back. And they finally were like, it only made sense to basically have like one extended scene. We couldn't justify making him a bigger part. But they offered it to Gleason. He was like too small, not going to do it. Yeah. I mean, like I, and Newman was like he, he said and I agree that his like participation in the movie wouldn't really do much for the story.

It was more like of being a forced ghost. You know, like it's, we were. Sims and I were explaining this movie Like he's just old Like I'm sitting in a chair Yes We were explaining this movie to your friend Ellen Cushing A co-host of your secret podcast

It's different everyone's subscribe I have a baseball podcast Oh you do? It's a big secret Yeah I just recorded my friend's house Yeah But we were trying to explain What this movie is she hadn't heard of it

And I was like It's the original legacy sequel And David went Yeah you're right Like And Minnesota Fats Would have been the original Sort of like

Cheap pop Yeah. If he showed up for one scene or showed up in the post credits, that would have been the original, like, the audience applauds when it happens, but 10 minutes later, they feel gross about it. I also don't know that the hustler exists in people's,

like, collective imaginations as, like, a sentimental favorite that they're like, could we bring Minnesota Fats back? Like, it's a cool character. Yeah. But it's like, that wouldn't hit the way, like, the way we, like, work these, No, like legacy cameos into these new movies. No, I mean, Jackie Gleason was so iconic that maybe there's a degree of that.

When's the movie he makes with Richard Pryor? The toy? Oh, that's early, that's 82. Yeah. His final film is nothing in common, which is the Gary Marshall, Tom Hanks, Bad Dad Comedy. Where they're both, they're looking at each other on the poster going like, but Gleason's got a stokey.

I told the story many times. cigar. But there was the foundation of our friendship, Sims and I was doing movie trivia night together at a bar called Videology. And there was a question of what is the name of the movie that Jackie Gleason

and Tom Hanks did together. And I was like, oh, fuck, I can picture the poster and the two of them looking at each other. And it's not nothing but trouble. It's nothing, nothing. And I couldn't figure it out. And I looked at one of our team mates whose name is K-A-M-E-N.

and I went common. I wouldn't have got it if I wasn't looking at his face and remembering what his name is. Gleason could have done it, but yeah, why was I saying this? Oh, that you... Does Minnesota Fats hold the same sort of like cultural memory? Is he Yoda?

You did discover Sims that there was a licensed, but not connected to the movies, licensed off the books only, Sega Genesis game. Genesis and Saturn game called, Minnesota Fats Pool Legend. Did you check it out?

Did you buy a Saturn maybe? No, like I think the last 40. The first thing I do is going to get him by a Saturn and get this. It's just so funny. I was seeing that it's technically the sequel to a different billiards game. And clearly they were just like, we need our Madden S. Cook. What's the name that moves units? We're not going to pay the Jackie Gleason likeness rights,

but can we just get the name of the character from the book and put some other fat guy on the car. Yeah, they have some full motion video of just a Minnesota fats type. Mostly it's, you know, pool. Mostly you're playing pool. So that looks like basically like a bar blackjack machine version of it.

It does. Yeah. I can't remember if I've ever played a pool video game. It never really came into the rotation. It doesn't feel like a good translation. I would also say the fact that Billiards is a tabletop game. Yeah. I like to play video games of things I can't do. Right. Yeah. Right.

Right. Like street fighting. You're playing Sega Genesis in like a rumpus room in your dad's basement. There's like someone to play pool. There's a 20% chance. There's already a billiards table next to the Genesis. No, no, no, no. Just over here, it's even better because it's on the TV.

All right. What is our podcast, Griffin? Our podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I am Griffin. I'm David. And it's in the way that we use it. That's right. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their

careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. This is the film that is derisively thought of as his purest paycheck gig. That is sort of the weird legacy of this movie within his career. We were both arguing that's kind of bullshit. But it certainly got hit with that at the time. Must admit, though, it is the guarantor that allows him to immediately then make Last Temptation of Christ in good fellas.

And it's... Neither of those movies happen in that way if not for this. It stabilizes his career is the right way to put it. It just... Right.

His career is in trouble and he takes a gig. He does a fucking great job with it. It doesn't feel dispassion. It wins Oscar. It makes money. It's a line drive down the middle. Right.

And it's so well made. In the lexicon of blank check, this would be you say stabilizer. It's like the guarantor. Like, guarantor is the term we usually use. That's like the thing that gets you the blank check. It's the hit that lets them

give you the blank check. You can't call Last Semptation a blank check. Because that's him being like, I'm going to spend every penny. Yes. Like, but I don't get that much. You know, we're going to go out to the desert. Last temptation is you mortgage the house. Right.

And he's like, if we put a pipe of fire, that can be saved. If I promise to make Kate fear, will you let me do this? But that movie was so risky and he had tried to do it for so long. Like his blank check is Gangs of New York. Yes. That is his true. Like, I really, this nonfiction book about Bowery gangsters, can I have one hundred million dollars and build a set. New York, New York is also the first blank check. That's the

first form. That's a pure blank check. Right. And I would say basically post-gangs in New York, most of his 21st century work is blank checky. But the gangs of New York is the most. No, 100%. Right. But then I think he just enters a phase where it's like, here's the deal if you want to make a Marty movie. Unless it's silence, unless he's back to Last Temptation, I know this is so risky that I got to make the smallest version of it possible. He's like, I want a nine-month shoot. and $150 million. Yeah, and then he also gets, I guess, to continue the language,

to use the language of it, once the departed comes along and he does the run with DeCaprio, it's like, well, I have, I have this guy co-signing the lease. Exactly. But stabilizer is a term we haven't used before. And you're right.

Let's add it to the lexicon, because it is a thing that's, sometimes we'll talk about a comeback film. But a comeback film. He's like getting his credit limit back up. That's what it is. 700s. It was like 492. Like Raiders at the

Lost Ark as a comeback post 1941 is a pure like, he bottomed out and then he struck gold as hard as you possibly could. This is just like everything is kind of safe again. You know, he still has to like put a lot on the line to make

last temptation. But notably this was his one movie where he was like, I'm coming in under schedule, under budget to prove a point. You know, I looked on Reddit. Color of Money is generally agreed to be the first legacy sequel. Some people are like, does return to Oz count?

It's the year before. I'm like, not really. Like, because it's not. I mean, yes, it has the characters, but like, it's too weird. It's too weird. You're not repeating the same designs. Obviously, not repeating the same cast. You know, some people are like,

Dawn of the Dead kind of counts because it was a long, like, weight between movies, but like, they don't have the same characters. It's just a sequel. Yeah. Yeah. And this, like, the tagline for this movie was the hustler, capital age, hustler. Right. Isn't what he used to be, but he has the next best thing, a kid who is.

So it's very much like, the hustler's here. Their friend. The rejected tagline for this movie was Nine Ball is Rotation Pool. Who's our guest? Our guest today. In person, in studio for the first time. Very excited. So excited.

Chris Ryan. Off of, well, not by the time. comes out, but you're still kind of coasing off of CR month. Yeah. CER month is extending into CERM. I was going to say, it might be a CR decade now. I hope. I mean, yeah, I guess why not me, right?

Why not you? Everybody else is getting smacked kind of end of CR month. But I got to be there. You got to be there and they got to beat the Celtic. Yes. Which was great. And we salute them and thank them for doing that. I salute them and thank them for doing that. And thank you to Darry who as of this recording had just lost his job

after putting together that team. Will he like have another NBA job or is this it? I wonder whether or not this is... Sorry to do two minutes. And also did we say the team name? I'll allow it. The Sixers. Philadelphia 76ers.

And this is their general manager, president who got fired after the season. Right. And kind of a king of NBA dorkdom who has maybe, you know, become a little bit of a fossil. I think he could do like a very successful podcast if he wanted to do it.

Oh, he absolutely could do that. Yeah. But like does he want to run another day? I don't know. I will call out that this is a mini-series on the films of Martin Scorsese. It's called Podcast Fellows. Today we're talking about the color of money. We were originally trying to,

it felt obvious to get you on Master and Commander the Far Side of the World. And we were like, last time we did over Zoom, it'd be really nice to do it in person, schedules weren't lining up. And around the time where it was like, do we just do Master and Commander over Zoom? Is there a chance you end up coming here? We're like, we're in the middle of our March Madness thing.

and it looks like it's probably going to shake out to be Tony Scott versus Martin Scorsese. And you said, well, if that happens, I'm moving to New York and I'm on every episode. It did kind of feel like, you know what, let's save it because between those two guys, you're going to have a pick you're passionate about. And then when it landed on Marty, we said,

what are your, you know, and you said like, obviously I do any of them, but these five are the big ones, immediately felt like color of money just sort of jumps out as being correct, the best possible episode in a lot of ways. There is a rewatchable's color. money episode. I listened to it.

You Bill and Sean, the big three. You know, it's great. I don't remember all the specifics. I'm just not done talking about it. You know, I was kind of like, with Master and Commander, I was like, ooh, this would be fun because I've never actually done it. I've never actually like... How is that not been a rewind? I guess, whatever. Maybe eventually it will be. And that could have been one

because like, during CR month, I had, I would say, 85% curatorial power, you know? Or I would be making the suggestions and then, or Bill would be making the suggestions. And I would pick, or of exchange. As Christopher Nolan always says,

it's never truly a blank check. It's collaborative. You know what I mean? We all have bosses. They're always conditions. But what were some of the picks? For CR month, it was Sicario. Fargo.

Sick Cario. Fargo. To live and die in L.A., confidential. And I feel like I'm missing. Nice guys. Nice guys. Which I feel like that was.

Which was weirdly like a bunch of L.A. movies, which I didn't intentionally do. Yeah. It's true. You didn't do like an East Coast movie. But it was a very cool month. to be able to just be like, fuck, they shot that right there.

Right. This is awesome. You know, it's become a less frequent occurrence as the years have gone on just because our schedule has too many masters to serve. But Ben, we allot,

Ben's choice. Oh. Occasionally. It used to be. It was like sort of a pallet cleanser between a series. But kind of our closest equivalent, but that, if you want to just tell Chris,

some of the Ben's Choice canon. Let's hear it. Blatch. Bang. Under Siege 2. Yes. Has never seen Under Siege 2. Oh, now has.

have. At the time, hadn't. Not a legacy sequel, really. Clifford. Okay. Not the dog.

What is it then? The Martin Short movie. Oh, okay. Have you not seen it? I have not. Oh. I'll check it out. Yeah.

It's worth it. Okay. Yeah. It's basically the most evil 14, or like child. 12 year old child. Martin Shurt plays a child

who torments. Oh, I remember this. Yeah, I never saw it, but I do remember. It's sort of like the omen if it's not supernatural, but the child is played by an adult.

Yeah, yeah. It's really fun. It feels like he possesses a cosmic evil, but he doesn't actually have powers. Sure. Right. Assassin's Creed. Yep.

Fastbender one? Yeah. I'm not aware of another. Similarly, a movie Ben loves, despite at the time he picked it, Assassin's Creed, the original one? Okay. Not a big deal.

David, just don't talk for a while. Similarly, Ben had never played a second of any Assassin's Creed game before choosing it for an episode, having watched the movie 20 times. Sure. And then most recently, Edge of Tomorrow. Yeah. Edge Tomorrow's great. But anyway, I mean, like, I had not talked about Master Commanded before, but I, obviously,

I have spoken about color money on rewatchables and then in various, like, forms of the big picture. But I still feel like there's chalk on the stick. You know what I mean? I've done like 15 fucking episodes on the Muppet movie while still every year pushing David to be like, can we do the proper Henson-Az combo series? And I question, like, have I just shot you know, my load on this, have I shared the takes ever else? I'm like, every time I watch that movie, I got new thoughts. Yeah. It's an endless well.

I'm never going to run out of stuff to say. And they're very similar movies. I'm going to up at movie and color money. I'm going to string a little hammock right under the desk for those. David's fucking rude joke that he says he's going to go on vacation. Just fucking leave me in a room alone to monologue. You won't even notice. My swimming to Cambodia.

Another thing about the Swedish chef. He's not, I wouldn't have much to say. He's not a major part in that film. Yeah, fucking right. Yeah, that's right. We went to baseball yesterday. I was so happy. We went to baseball, as they say.

We went to see the Mets defeat the Tigers. I'm going to night too. You're going to night? Yeah, Subway Series. Got to see him. Oh, the Subway Series is starting? Yeah. I mean, Matt's Yankees.

I liked that as a kid. Sure. It's fine. It's very rare as a kid. Rare. Good hook. Yeah. Now, in case of the listeners were wondering, you know,

was this just a regular sort of night or day? should say out at the baseball game. Why was I so interested in going? It was funny that right. Griffin was like, should we go like a baseball game? David's someone in the Mets. We could do it as a team one second later just text like, Star Wars Day, I found this. We're going to this one.

Free bobblehead, we got to go. Oh, you have the bobblehead to show up. Great. I think we should also unveil, some of this. Nolan McLean. Wow. Very cool. Yeah. I do think we should leave some of this for the Mandalorian.

Yeah, we won't talk about it. Yeah, we'll have happened. We're just telling Chris. Yeah. Okay, cool. David, yes. If your daughter designed her own credit card, what would it have on it? Probably like rainbows and unicorns and stuff.

Are those the most popular right now? I mean. I got another question. If you got a notification every time your kid spent money, what do you think it would be for? Look, she's not quite there yet, but cash app now offers managed accounts for kids ages 6 to 12 that grow with them all the way to adulthood, all with no subscription fees because building money habits shouldn't cost extra. The account runs through you, so you're not just watching from the sidelines. You're actually in it with them.

That's what makes it a real teaching tool. Every time money comes in or goes out, it's a chance to talk about it together. So whether it's birthday money from grandma or allowance for cleaning their room or saving up for something you really want, you can see it all and help guide the decision along the way. And their savings and habits in history carry forward every step of the way. From a parent-managed account at 6 to a teen account at 13 to a full account at 18. It's structured independence. You set spending limits and you can lock or unlock their cash app visa card anytime from your own app.

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This is some kind of VHS rental in like 80, 89. Right, in 86, how old are you? Nine. Yeah, you're... Yeah. So a little... But I wouldn't put it past my dad to have this one. And I could see nine-year-old being...

You being obsessed with this movie immediately. And I have very early memories because it was the 80s that, like, I would spend Sundays not in pool halls, but in bars. with my dad where he would be like, here are some quarters to go play video games over the corner and I'm going to sit here for five hours and watch football. And that's how we built this country.

We need to go back to that. Exactly. How close or far are you from being able to do that with your children? Pretty far. Yeah, pretty far. Pretty far. I mean, and also, and I wouldn't like, you know, it's not like it, but like, I, especially in Britain

when I moved there and you would like hang out with your friends' dads, they'd be like, we're going to the pub. Yeah. I don't want to look at your faces. Like, I will be seen. Try not to inhale too much secondhand smoke. You kids run around.

Like, sometimes you go to, like, a pub that had like a backyard and be like, just fucking get out of here. If you want some chips, I'll get you some chips. But, like, the, when I saw the movie, even before I understood any of what I was watching, I understood the accuracy in which it captured, like, a certain feeling of those places. I was going to say, when I tried to imagine the cartoon child version of you, I imagine you were a little similar to my brother who, if a movie was about sports in any way, he was 1,000% locked in, especially if it's about the actual, the psychology, the milieu, the world, the business, any of those things, it didn't matter how mature it was, how dry it was. he was just like, this is a portal into a world I want to understand. As I've said before in the show, his ninth birthday party was making all of his friends at school

watch a VHS of Michael Mann's Ali. And it was his seventh time watching. He's nine. So it's like his Assassin's Creed. Right. And he's like, it's interesting politically what he's like, you know? It was just like if there's some prism of sports through this that's then like an understanding of how a or history.

Talking about this with somebody else, because I was talking about Excalibur with Paul who works at Radiance and Transmission, the DVD label. And we did a pod of his podcast called Old Movies. We were talking about Excalibur. And I was like, man, that time in your life where you're actually just watching movies entirely based on your own personal passions, but not movies.

You're like, so if this movie is about a thing that I love, like King Arthur or baseball or whatever, then I'll watch the movie, no matter how good or bad it is. And I'll watch the movie 45 times. But then eventually that turns into I love movies, so I want the movie itself to be successful in some aesthetic way. And it's like this is right at a turning of the page for me,

like whenever I actually watched it. And then I've just returned to it over and over again just because at any given point in my life, I'm deeply fascinated by some aspect of it. whether Richard Price or Scorsese or Newman or Cruz or whatever. So it's just always been there. Do you think this would have been the first Scorsese you saw? You know, if you're like 10, 11 years old?

Like, it's like, you know. That's a great question. Have you seen like Taxi Driver or Raging Bull yet? Like, probably not. No, and if I did, because like my parents would watch movies while I was like kind of like upstairs and I would come to the landing and sort of peek down the stairs to see what they're watching. This is why I remember Miami Vibe. always the TV show so vividly is that I was like,

I was not allowed to be there. But I would watch it from like 30 feet away on a down angle. It was my mom with ER and Seinfeld, the only two TV shows she respected. My mom also ER was like... The double barrel. ER and NYPD Blue, where the big two, I remember, where it's like, all right, out of the room.

And then pretty quickly with ER, I got to stay in the room because she was like, I guess it's medical. It's not bad. It's like you're learning lessons. Yeah, it's not that lurid. Maybe I'll become a doctor. dirty film critic. Then instead I watched

Ali McBeal with her and was like, I want to be a lawyer. They all hang out in a fun office and do songs and see babies. That was Ed for us.

We were into the bowling alley not the sexy lawyer. Did your dad take you to screenings? Yeah. Well, this was my other question just of the era. Was your dad ever getting

screeners for reviews or was he always going to a screen? No, they had like a pretty robust like the Philadelphia critics would go see and it would be the inquire in the daily news and the TV critics and, you know, the W-H-Y-Y

critic and the NPR person. Back when fucking things were correct, there was like a robust local journalism. I mean, I went to a, my sort of earliest most crystal clear memory of this of being with him is for Rocky 4

at a real palace on Chestnut Street in Philly. And that's the good cut. Rocky 4 is 85, right? Yeah, and him snapping at someone for talking during Rocky 4, the premiere of it. And you're being like, touch on them.

You know, please. Right, this is Rocky Forum. We are in Philadelphia. There might be some crowd going. This is a religious event. And he's just like, I'm watching this. It's like, can't you put it together what's happening here? I'm watching here.

I was always fascinated by, like, especially I feel like talk shows in the 90s where the host would talk about like, hey, so I saw your movie. The studio sent me a screener. And I would be like, right. So like, David Letterman is watching a new release movie. before it's come out on VHS in bed? Yeah, do you think he's watching Color of Money and then just like Newman's here tonight?

That would always be the implication and I was always curious about like what percentage of film critics are being sent these screeners versus their tongue they have to go to the theater. I don't ever remember there being an advanced tape at my dad's house.

I think it was just a lazy fucking talk show host thing. Yeah. I probably didn't see this movie until I was in college and was sort of like embarking on being like a Scorsese completist or whatever and was like, oh, I should watch that one.

I definitely saw the hustler when I was a teenager because my dad loved that. I saw the hustler in high school as sort of my self-imposed film education. Right. I had never seen this movie in full. I had basically, this was like a Cloverfield monster like watching it. I was like, I have seen almost every scene of this. Yeah. But it was a, oh, I'm watching 20 minutes on cable.

I'm seeing scenes on YouTube kind of thing. This is like a big cable movie. Yeah. Right? Yeah. This is all of it. But I had never truly. sat down, watched it from beginning to end.

Very little of it felt totally new to me, but the experience of watching it as a whole was. Yeah. And I re-watched the Hustler and then watched this straight through. And I would say probably in there's a long period of time where I watch the first hour

of this a lot. The first hour of this is like better than Citizen Kane. And then it goes into the kind of twilight of middle age personality. Yeah, which is good. which is really good. It's a little less thrilling.

There is a drop off for me. We've been talking about this because some of the weird movies have this as well where we were like a movie that remains excellent, but the first 45 minutes to an hour feels like hypnotic, like supernaturally powerful. I can't believe it. This is dancing on the edge of a pin. This is the best thing I've ever seen. Right.

And then, right. And then the third act, you're kind of like, I guess that makes sense that they did that. But I'm a little less. The original hustler, by the way, sort of has. that too where like the opening Minnesota Fats like challenge is half an hour. There's basically a mono scene that is like there's a little cold open of seeing do one hustle and then there's basically half an hour of like one endless night that is transfixing. It's hypnotic. So the other thing that immediately grabbed me about this movie when I was young, even if I couldn't finish it or found

the second half of it to be like incomprehensible just because of like what emotional pain is this guy going through as he gets manipulated by Forrest Whitaker and stuff. Like it was the language and immediately immediately responding in a way like with Price and with Mamet when I was young. I was like nobody's talk like I've never heard people talk like this but this is how people talk. And that's that was always the thing and continues to grab me about it. I think similarly any movie that introduces its own vocabulary immediately has me leaning in. If it's a vocabulary that is real,

I get the sense of this is giving me a look into a world where people talk this way rather than just making up fake like planet names or whatever, especially the vocabulary of con artists, scams, crimes,

it's just crack to me. Yeah, and pool hustlers. And I mean, I just, I still remember her, saying on the snap, Vincent. I'm just being like, what? Oh. A woman will say on the snap to you.

Do or did you ever play a lot of pool? I did play a fair amount of pool. I was never that good, although... I'm sure that's what you say. Yeah. I was just pretending you're drunk. This is crazy.

I've never done this before. I'll take any old Q. It's fun. Weird luck. But I got, I got, I think, enough of a run in a time in American history where it was pretty routine to have a pool table in a bar. And now it is increasingly rare.

That is true. I can't remember the last time I was at a bar that had a billiard's table. So I used to, it's so funny that you keep saying billiards table, which makes us sound very classy. I'm a classy man. I used to hang out at two bars that still have pool tables. Basically for all my 20s, my best friend was in a band, and every Saturday, band would rehearse. Then I would hang out with them at the bar. You should just say, Jared Leto, three seconds tomorrow.

You don't need to be cake. Molly is the bassist and an art rock band called Thrillington. I went to several of those concerts with them. Yeah, great band. And a full circle bar in Williamsburg, which I think is still there, where you get free drinks on your birthday. And buttermilk in Park Slope, which is still there and has

a pool table on a, you know, slight slant, but you know, it's there. And I would play pool with all night. I'm terrible. I think objectively. But what's better than fucking racking some balls with your bros? There's also, like, for most of those bar pool tables, they're like, do you know what? The other side of this is right against the wall.

So don't put yourself in any kind of position where you have to shoot from that side of the table. I love it whenever that's a Friday night and like, you know, someone is trying to play pool, but it's so packed that you're like just getting hit by a stick when you're on your way to the bathroom. So you almost say the circumstances, the setup, the equipment is not ideal, but it's in the way that you use it. There's also, I live near a pool hall, like not that far. Like, in parks slope, there's Ocean State which still exists. Yes, right. Which is like a classic.

Directed by Gary Ross. Yeah. Yes, a classic dingy-ass, like, basement with like 20 pool tables. And, like, I've not been there in years. I, the guys who are there are a certain kind of guy. And I'm not up to playing pool with any of them. They abide by the Assassin's Creed. Yeah.

I mean, basically. What's the one near Astor Place? On university. I think it might be university billiards or something like that. That sounds right. That is the classic architecture of up a relatively narrow staircase. Amsterdam billiards.

Yeah, Amsterdam. And then you're like, wait, when I'm out of this thing, it's just a storefront. And when you go inside, it's like, did Charlie Kaufman direct this? How did you guys find, like, a full city block of pool tables that go back this place? It's like Disney World where the rides are never actually in the building they pretend the ride is in. Yeah. It's in some weird warehouse to the sun. You take a tram to get to the pool tables. They lower you down underground. It's also one of those places where, like, it does not matter what time of day it is.

If you walk up those stairs and look out the window, it's night now. Yeah. Yeah. It's like they basically have poker room lighting where it's just like, yeah, man. Like, whatever, it's okay if you're here at 11 a.m. It's 9 p.m. I can't say, I don't think I've ever played 9 ball. I always played 8 ball, obviously. Like, any idiot knows how to play. I played snooker in Britain sometimes, but snooker is incredibly difficult.

So I was going to ask, yeah, please. Do they have a different name for Poo-Haul? Like, do they call it like a, I don't know, like a fucking snooker parlor? You know what? I think they spelled with a U. A snookery? Do they have snookeries? Like, or is it just there's a snooker table?

Okay, so this, you guys are doing something that is what Americans do, which is they say snooker. I remember my mom would say snooker. Like, I moved to England where they televised snooker on primetime television. Like, you turn on, I would turn on the TV and she'd be like, are you watching someone play pool? And I'm like, it's snooker. Like, it's like, it's fun. It's cool to watch. And it has the, is it where they have the little wood like things on the table or is that something else?

I have no idea with that. Are you talking about Baccarot? No, there's like a version of pool that have little like things on the tabletop. I remember my uncle had it growing up. I don't know. I mean, in Britain, you call it a pool parlor, a billiard hall,

whatever, like, you know, but you know Snooker shortly. I do know Snooker, but Snooker and cricket remain like, I could watch this for 300 years and not know the rules. There's nothing like, just Google like Ronnie O'Solvin doing like a perfect break in Stooker. It's so cool. But it's like, it's nine reds and then six or seven colored balls

and you have to do red than color, red, then color, red than color, and then you have to pocket all of the colors in a specific order. It's like very complex and it's all about like snookering someone is putting the ball where the other player's going to be fucked. This sounds like some Van Hammersley teaching by Billiards

bullshit to invoke one of my favorite comedy sketches in all the time. I think one of the most ingenious parts of color of buddy is actually like Scorsese sets up nine ball pretty well. You're like yeah. You know what? I get it. You know, like broadly I understand. One to nine, baby. Yeah. And then it's for TV and that it moves fast.

and they play a lot of games and you can get lucky. No, it's true. He's so good at not bothering you at all with, like, details about it without, right, like, ignoring it. He has to be economic. And anyone's like, yeah, that's like Scorsese picking up a paycheck. You're like, do you think he's anything less than thrilled by the potential of how to shoot this game? Because this is not just, like, Flash style over substance shit. He's got, like, you know, Paul Newman and a Richard Price script.

but I feel he is as cinematically activated. Richard Price's first script. That's wild. You know, kind of like hey, this celebrated novelist is writing a screenplay. Like it was like a big deal. But you just feel him like rubbing his hands together and going like, oh shit. On the impact

of the cue hitting the ball, I could move the camera from here to here. And it's all like you have found a way to make this game feel ecstatic. I mean, we'll talk about the movie. But like the crash zoom when like when Newman breaks and you're just like

oh Martin Scorsese loves cocaine like you know like it's just like Martin Scorsese who I don't even know where he but like he's like he understands like you're just like Newman's like oh shit this is the greatest feeling in the world I forgot like the way it like just jumps on his face when he finally picks up a cue again I think he's kicked it by this point yeah but it makes sense

like I know how I would feel yeah if someone like gave me a line he's basically making a movie as he's just put his vince to bed and is trying to be in his fast Eddie I just sell liquor. I'm going to open the dossier. Martin's Chris, I'm going to tell you guys a little bit. I do want to tell you that right before

this movie, he did direct an episode of Steven Spielberg's amazing stories called Mirror, Mirror. We will be covering that on Patreon. I don't know much about it. Have you seen... I've only seen the title card that says directed by Martin Scorsesey

and people. being like we used to do great things in television. I was going to say a pretty good title card. To put on anything. A sign of quality. Ben has just kind of like a horror thing. He's texted us a photo of a billiards table.

It's called bumper pool. It looks like a fucking pinball table. Yeah, this looks very complicated, I will say. And it was like a thing where I would have loved to have played when I was at my uncle's house, but I was like, I don't know what this is. I don't know how to play this. But that's what I thought, Snooker.

was. Anyway, continue. It's 24-minute television film, six-day shoot. He didn't have final cut, so I don't know that he really enjoyed it, but it was his first ever horror movie or horror thing. And he loves

like, you know, Val Luton. He loves like Mario Bava. Obviously, he's very into like Cronenberg. Like, he's into horror. It's funny that he never... Shutter Island. Shutter Island's the closest. Shutter Island is his... Cape Fear's pretty hard. Yeah. Both of those, I would still...

fundamentally call thrillers. Shutter Island is definitely the closest. Shutter Island, he's really using the horror imagery of those film makers. The touchstones of these guys, right? And it kind of sounds like this new thing. I think it's fear as well. Yeah. This new, what's it called? It happened at night or really. He's going to have a touch of that. I hope so. I mean, it's going to be a little Rebecca here or whatever. Right. Yeah. It's the only time he ever works with Michael Kaman. I don't know why I'm talking about this. It's not important. We will have covered it on Patreon. Right, exactly. Or we'll cover it right after this.

In 86. He's in a film that I've, watched relatively recently because I'm watching a lot of 1986 movies for a big picture draft that may or may not ever happen. Yes. An undated big picture He is kind of like the third or fourth most important character in round midnight. The

Oh yeah. Yeah. He is like when Dexter Gordon comes to New York, the fast talking like guy who's like, okay, let me take you to the bars. You know, like I'll take you to your concert, Mr. Dexter Gordon. Chris, we saw the Mandalorian and Grogu last night. We just went to meet up with him at a bar. And how is Dexter

Gordon in it. Yeah. Scorsese is so good in it. It's insane. It actually is crazy how suited he is. But he came in and told me that Scorsese's in it. And for like a full minute, I was like, so Martin Scorsese just walks into the bar in the Mandalorian and starts doing Martin Scorses.

I didn't know he was doing the voice of like, of an alien. Yes. And I don't know if it's mocap. I don't think they do much mocap in these movies. But I will say the creature, they really. got his mannerisms down. You do feel like you're seeing a true representation of Scorsese on screen

and the performance is so good and I would say basically everyone else in the movie is so wooden that David and I were like ripping our armrest being like, holy shit, he's so fucking locked it. The other one who's good is Stephen McKinley-Henderson. He is. He's also great. As another alien, yes. But it is this thing and I felt the same way

watching his arc on the studio last season where I'm like, look, He's arguably the greatest living American filmmaker. I want to make as many movies as he can with his remaining years, which hopefully are decades ahead of us. I would love if he got some more acting roles in there as well. I am always so happy any time he is acting in something.

He is always so fucking good. I don't want him to be like, you know what, it's fun being on shrinking. I'll just do that instead of making films. No, but I love him to do more one-two-scene things. Yeah. Well, around midnight's example, that he had been in Paris. He was scouting locations for Last Demptation, like, you know, a prior version of it. And, like, was, like, hanging out with Bertrand Tavenier, the guy, you know, the director,

links him with Erwin Winkler, his producer, Scorses. And is basically like, you know, he wants to make a film set in New York, blah, blah, blah. And Bertrand is like, you will have to play the owner of the club, you know, like, when I do this. And so that is why he's in that film. He's very good. Last Temptation, obviously, is Scorsese's 80s mountain that he's trying to climb. Yeah. You know.

And he's trying to do it in the early 80s. It fails. And so he makes After Hours as a sort of pivot out of that of like, I'll just do something. After Hours is kind of an interesting. It's like a partial reset movie where he just needed to show that he could make something that wasn't a disaster. A, he needed to, like, get back on the horse and not just, like, curl up in a ball. Incredible movie.

Right. It rules. Yes. But it was a cheap movie. It was made independently. Warner Brothers releases it. It does okay. He's sort of back in, like, a safety zone

without necessarily the studios trusting that they could give him a lot of resources and that he would use it responsibly. That is also another movie, which is somehow not made on cocaine. Yeah. Whereas just, but it is the sense memory of cocaine for me. It's a...

Yeah. It's both of these movies feel like if I, if I'm going to truly not touch that shit anymore, it will be the central preoccupation of my art. I need to like work through what it meant to me. It will be the vibe guide of everything I do. I would say like through Goodfellas, right? Like Last Temptation is the interruption, but he's like, I need to cinematically say goodbye to this thing. Yeah, it really culminates with the helicopters above Henry.

Right. And then it's like goodbye to cocaine. I think I'm good. I think Casino's got some Coke in its blood. Yeah. I would not say casino is like a movie where

you know, cocaine is a main character in the same way. For Sharon Stone is. I think you're going to remember when you rewatch. Yeah. Casino. Some other movies he was linked to around them. Dick Tracy. Right. We'll talk about this whenever we do Warren Beatty,

but he was a contender to direct with Warren starring, I believe. Right. Right. Winter's Tale. which is eventually turned into one of the oddest movies every made. But at the time... Yes. At the time is like a hot new book. He's attached to that. But Mark Helprin, I believe is the novelist.

A biopic of Gershwin, written by Paul Schrader, which has never come to pass. And an adaptation... Can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine? an adaptation of the Elmore Leonard novel LaBrava that Dustin Hoffman wanted to make I've never read LaBrava I think that's one of the Detroit ones

so I think it's a Detroit crime one No No is it a Western? I'm not No it's like Joe LaBrava former Secret Service agent Oh is he in Florida taking pictures He gets involved with a former movie star Yeah that's Florida I've never Yeah Hoffman you know

who's famously like the most gigantic Peyton in the ass in the world is trying to make it into a movie for years. It ends up a canon. Yeah. It never happens. Life's too short to work with Dustin Hoffman was a oft-repeated phrase in Hollywood for decades. Now, color money. Michael

Ovitz, guys heard of him. Speaking of guys with normal energy, a super agent who founded CIA, one of his biggest clients is Paul Newman. And he's you know, trying to win his guy in office. He, Paul Newman

watches Raging Bull on, I guess Ovitz's recommendation and says like, that's one of the best things I've ever seen. And Ovitz is like, why don't you fucking make a movie with Marty? Well, let's call out another connection. Jake LaMotta is in the hustler as a bartender. Oh shit. Sure, the real Jake LaMata. Right.

Yeah. So that's A, one of the reasons that Paul Newman is leaning in and watching that movie is like, you know, oh, I'm interested. I knew Jake LaMata. I interface with this fucking guy. And he's seeing like, man, squireman. Corsese got him right and is connecting those dots. There's also, you know, Ovitz was Scorsese's neighbor for a long time.

I think he lived underneath him. And he shared an office with Harry Offlin, who was Scorsese's agent back in the 70s. Yeah. So he's always been into him. But, but Ovitz lived near Scorsese during Scorsese and Robbie Robertson staying up all night watching horror movies when they're editing. Yeah, and Ovitz just had like a big funnel and he would suck the Coke fumes from the next. store window. I don't know if it's in the

dossier here, but it sounds like Ovitz when he was like young and getting started. Yeah. Right. Was living adjacent to Scorsese in that time and that Scorsese would like loan him movies, show him movies, bring him upstairs to show him a VHS, that there was a little bit of cinematic education.

This is an example of what Ovitz was sort of smart about. It's like, Newman's like, I'd like to work with Marty, sure. And Ovitz is like, write him a letter. It's going to mean a lot. And Paul Newman's like, what? And he's like, write just trust me. Write him a letter. saying you admire him. He inspires you. Paul Newman's like he does and he's like, yeah, sure. Like, you know, like convinces him to do this. Drops the letter personally to Marty.

Like gives him a person. And he says like, Scorsese like opens the letter and like it lights up. even though it is a, it is addressed to Michael Scorsese. But he forgives that. Yeah. He's still charmed. And, you know, like, you know, my guess is it's sort of like Ovitz is like, I know he's. an artist, he's probably not going to want to do like a commercial thing. So I'm going to try and like nudge him towards something commercial. Can I do a minute or two on Ovitz quickly? We've talked about

him before. But I think this movie is a good... This is a big Ovitz project. Right. So for people don't know, Michael Ovitz was one of the founders of CAA, right? And he basically becomes the archetype of the modern agent. And part of that is sort of being an agent who also functions a little

bit more like a manager. And I think the genius of what he did. And, you know, normal guy in our parlance, but to give credit to what he did successfully, and it had certain negative end-tail effects on the industry, it was sort of like he recognized a gulf in the collapse of the studio system that used to be invested in people's careers.

It would have a director or an actor under contract, and they would be managing them long-term, not just thinking about how do I get them a gig, but like, what's the arc we're building here? What's the next era we want to go into? That falls apart. get their own independence. But suddenly it's like, if you're Warren Beatty

and you've got really good taste and you're smart and you're driving everything and you have that level of power, you're fine. You just need an agent to fucking make your contracts, close your deals. But some people don't have the same kind of vision. And Ovitz is like, this is what we're going to build our business on

is that we are thinking long term. It is a career business. It's not a gig-to-gig business. And the other part of it is the beginning of like super packaging, right? And that's what this movie is a great example of, of just like, oh, fuck. If I can put like three insane elements together on paper and then go to the studios and say like, fuck you, you have five minutes to decide, this is a bidding war. It starts to change Hollywood.

Fuck you. It's about pool. Nobody's happy. Right. Five minutes to decide. His famous example of this is that he puts together like Ghostbusters and goes to all of the studios and is like, it's on everyone's table. you know, like, start bidding. Here's everything.

It's like the two funniest men in America from the director of Stripes and the other guy from Stripes is co-writing it and he's in it and we're going to have special effects. And Slimer. Right. Slimer's a board. Because slimer is tough. Yeah, Slimer is tough to get.

Slimer was offer only. He was a CAA client. Slimer also a huge coat problem. It's funny, it's funny that you said that there was this Ovid's dance of him knowing that Scorsese was such an artistically driven man to drop my one story I have of working on vinyl where I had this incredible extended conversation with Scorsese that I sort of lucked into where he was talking fairly

vulnerably about the criticism of him becoming a paycheck guy, that he was like still very sensitive about the criticisms of his later period and the idea that he doesn't care or does things for money now. And he was like, I very earnestly like, like every movie I've made I deeply care about. And like some of them I made more money on and some of them are more passionate to me and some things I developed and this and that. But I like never made a movie just for money. And, you know, he said to me, I remember Mike Ovitz coming up to me at a party.

I'm trying to think what the timeline of this would have been. It must have been pre after hours, right? Well, it's post-raging bull, but I don't know. Sometime in this era, Raging Bull, King of Comedy, Mike Ovitz comes up to him at a post-screen party or post-premier party for one of his movies and says, you know, Marty, there is a way to make money doing this. I mean, look, we're going to get there.

That was a line he used to lure him into color of money. And there was sort of the dance of him being like, I'm not going to do something just for money. And he's like, but there's a way to do both. There is a way to make a movie the way you want to. with like incredible assets like Paul Newman and also get paid, not lose your house trying to get it made,

and have it be commercially successful, which will ultimately, speaking to this long-term career vision, help you get shit like Last Temptation or Gangs of New York made. They're not going to give you that if you keep making shit like King of Comedy. Yeah, and I'm sure also, I mean, it appeals to two sides of his sensibility.

He's at once, like, I have archived a neo-realist Serbian movie that eight people have seen, And he's also like, Humphrey Bogart, love him. Like, let's make, like movie stars are awesome and Hollywood is great. It's the best about it. Yeah. And so many of the filmmakers he grew up loving had careers like that. David?

Yes. I'm having an energy crisis. Uh-oh. A mental energy crisis. I hear that, honestly. Trying to figure out what to do for lunch. Yeah, every day. It's a, you know.

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So cute. 1984, Walter Tevis publishes the color of money, sequel to his novel The Hustler. He dies a lung cancer just a year later. Paul Newman is into it because he's, he feels differently about fast Eddie, basically, than any other party's played. And he's like, Eddie's not complete at the end of the hustler.

It's not like Butch Cassidy or whatever, like, I often wondered about what he would be doing now. Like, it's not like a thing where, like, his story just... Because obviously the hustler ends with him basically, like, in a hole. I don't know if this is controversial to say, but upon rewatching it, I think this is the best of the young Newman performances. I know he's incredible in Butch Cassidy and Cool Hand Luke and whatever, but, like, it does feel like the hustler gets something very unique out of it.

Yeah, my favorite's HUD. It's HUD. To me, it's like 100% HUD. It's like the best screen performance of all times. He's pretty fucking astonishing and hustling. No, he's awesome. He's awesome.

He's so awesome. And it's great because he's so hot. And he's so charming. And he plays such assholes in these movies. He sure does. You know, it's like he actually, like whatever he saw when he looked in the mirror, he's so divorced from what everybody sees when they look on screen.

It's fascinating because it does feel like there are, there are actors like him who want to play unlikable because they feel burdened by their charisma, you know, or the accessibility they have to people's interests. Right, ugly me up or make me scary or yeah, yeah, yeah. And it feels performative and it feels hollow or it feels kind of like self-punishing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And with him, it feels like a genuine, not like a genuine reflection of a self-hatred, but there is a very honest probing into the darkest sides of the psyche that don't feel stunty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And in some ways, maybe a perfect foil or a perfect partner for Scorsese because they're... Newman's like, look, like, I flash the baby blues, and everybody comes to the movie, but then they get confronted with, like,

the dregs of the human condition. And Scorsese's like, I make camera move fast, but we're going to actually get in. Yeah. There's some pretty dark stuff here. So it's like, it's the perfect medicine and sugar, right? Yeah, that's the other thing that, like, Newman's seeing and raging bowl of, like, man, this guy's really good at dissecting what makes men terrible.

He really gets it. He's not trying away from it. Okay, so the novel, right, he's into it. Tevis is given a shot at writing a screenplay. He writes a draft. Another writer does another draft, no name for that one. I've never read any. I didn't, I didn't read color of money.

the novel, the Tevis novel. I don't think, I don't know if the screenplay is around anywhere, but the reporting on the screenplay is like, it's basically a two-hander with Fats and Eddie. It's more going by the book. It's like Rocky 2. Yeah. It's just like...

It's like, we're old now and it's Florida, but like we're doing cable TV, like exhibitions, but then we're also hustling each other. It's more like Creed, too. Newman still remember Scorsese, loved Raging Bull. Scorsese has just done, just finished on after hours. And Paul calls him. And it's like, do you want to do a sequel to the hustler?

Obviously, like, Scorsese is like, my taste is not in sequels, but I do love Paul Newman. Like, I mean, how do you? It's like the president calling you being like, I need you to be the secretary of state or whatever. Also, it's fucking Paul Newman. This held the record for a long time of the biggest gap between sequel and original film. As you said, there was the return to Oz thing that doesn't really count. And now we get more and more like your Tron legacies and your Top Gun Mavericks where it's just casually... Right, 37, 40 years later, whatever the fuck it is.

You know, Blade Runner, obviously the Star Wars sequels. At this time, I think that already sounded novel and different. It's novel. It's novel for sure. But also back then, sequels are... so strided. Right. Godfather too is the only one that basically is taken seriously. Yeah. So Newman sits down

with him and he's like, Eddie reminds me of, you know, characters you've dealt with. I feel like we should hear more from him. I've got a script. Scorsese is intrigued. He does not like the script because it is a literal sequel. Like, you know, basically.

Like, it even had, like, it was supposed to start with, like, stuff from the hustler. I think it starts with like a 10 or 12. 12-minute, like, or 12-page, like, this is from the hustler. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, they let the writer who wrote this script, the unnamed writer, one more draft, that still doesn't, they don't like it.

He doesn't really like the novel either. So then he's basically like, can we just drop the novel? We'll keep the title, but otherwise, can we just, like, do something else? This is the power of the package is you don't go like, well, sorry, you don't like the script. Thanks for considering this film. let's find a new director. You go, no, the selling point here is Scorsese makes the Hustler sequel.

Yes. Let's figure out the version he wants to make. So Richard Price, who had written these books like The Wanderers and Blood Brothers and C-you know, like Price is sort of like, what, sort of early-ish in his career. Yeah, I think he's written like three or four books

and then this marks his departure from novels to do screenplays until he comes back to write Clockers. Which Clockers is so good. Lush Life is like the novel. One of my favorite novels. That's such a good book. Yeah. And he worked on the wire later in life and all that.

You know, he became such a luminary. He'd never written a screenplay that had been produced. He'd done some, you know, he'd done some stuff in Hollywood. He was like a little hung up on a novel, I guess. And obviously, you make a lot more money writing movies than you do write novels that may or may not get published. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's, I rewatched Martin Fink again recently because it was playing at the Paris

with a Titoro doing a Q&A. And I, you know, it just made me think about like, right, that's how Hollywood used to run is they would just go to all great novelists and playwrights and go like, look, you're sitting in an office, you're going to pay a lot more and then you can go back and write your little things. And now it feels like they are the exceptions to the rule. There are the couple you can call out where you're like, that guy kind of successfully made the leap. Yeah, who's like the most recent person? I mean, Gillian Flynn kind of did that. Yeah, that's a good example for sure. I mean, like, Benny Off is that. David Benning off him. It's sort of forgotten now. Like he did like two novels and was like, forget it. I'm done. So Newman's Scorsese and Price sit down in Cal in Malibu.

This is how Price describes it. Me and Marty, the two New York guys, were on the beach. Marty's sitting there with his jacket and his nasal spray. I'm smoking a cigarette hunched over coughing. Newman comes out, all tanned up. Mr. Sienski, eating a grapefruit. We were two clowns with the Hollywood platinum. And then we just hammered out a plotline.

Like, you know, in one day. essentially. Like, what's fucking Eddie doing now? The novel he, like, hooks up with a professor. It's like a romance. It's weird, like, they open an antique store. Right. Seriously. The antique store gets burned down. Sorry for spoiling this novel.

Yeah. So, like, so Scorsese is basically, like, it's not like he's just been doing nothing. He's just gotten, like, tougher and meaner to survive or whatever. Like, that's kind of, you know, but he needs to sort of re-educate himself to play.

again. Like, that's, you know, the age of 52, he's, you know, blah, blah, blah. And first time I met Paul Newman, I asked him why this guy would start playing pool again in his 50s? I said, to Paul, why do you race if you don't win every time? Because Paul Newman loves a fucking, you know, race car, right? And Newman just sort of looks at him and goes like, that's the picture. And like, that's fucking great stuff. You know? Because, I mean, that is, like, we're just like, Paul. You're the hottest man alive. Everybody loves your lemonade. Right. Why do you also go to like Le Mans

and drive a car for a day? Right. Right. Like, are you not satisfied? And he's like, I don't know. There's something in me. Got a happy marriage. You basically have an uninterrupted, decades long, like minted movie star streak. You still keep on getting in these crazy cars. Right. Yeah. The first draft comes in

too dark. Newman's like, I think this is too you have made him a nightmare piece of shit. Yeah, it's like, Eddie Felston dragged up to Golgotha. Wait a second. So, they're like, look, we're making a star vehicle. The way Scores says he puts it, like, we're making a suit for the man, you know?

It's got to come out of Paul Newman. Like, you can't just, like, write, like, all this, like, piece of shit dialogue. Like, you have to imagine. Like, Paul Newman will be saying this. Like, there needs to be some class. Yeah. And so, you know, they calibrate it and all that. it's interesting that like Cruz is not mentioned for a while. This is like...

The most fascinating thing about reading about the making of this movie is this guy's in Top Gun. The same... Like, it comes out what, four or five months earlier, basically. So they hit the lottery in that sense. Right. But he is not in any way doing Tom Cruise things where he's like, it's important that this happens to my character. And it's important.

Like, that's all... Right, which is all you hear about with it. This might be the last movie where that happened. And it's funny because like his rep is like, after this is like, oh, he wants to work with. Duvall. Yeah. All these big, right, he wants to work with big.

And you figure he's the one who's like, Paul, let's get Marty, you know, or whatever. But like, he's not. He comes in later. Obviously, you know, risky business was big and predated this. But it is fascinating that I think of this movie in his arc as being like, this is him grabbing the torch and being like, I'm on the run now. Here we go.

I'm racing towards the fucking Olympics. and this felt like the last time he was just, like, hired to do something. I watched, he was on Graham Norton during the pandemic, because I watched a clip and they were all sitting very far apart. And so he told this story about doing what sounds like the aftermath of the Werewolves of London scene where he's outside of the car and he's freezing the coat anecdote. And the way he tells it, it's not like, and then, of course, Paul and I became best friends after. I mean, I know that they were close, but it sounds like Newman's like, ah, kid, you know, like, hey, but it's just like you're the supporting actor in this movie. Tom Cruise, the most controlled man in the world, has 10 anecdotes he will share. There are 10 personal things he will say, right?

And one of them, which I feel like he only started sharing in the last 10 years, because I've seen him do in a couple other places. I know he did it on the fucking nerdist podcast. But the anecdote is that they're filming this thing outside and they call cut. and immediately Paul Newman has like a PA come over and put a really warm coat on him. And he has an electric heater. Right. And Tom Cruise is like rubbing his arms and like freezing. And Paul Newman says something like 54 pictures kid.

Basically implying like I've learned how to make movies. I know what I need and that Tom Cruise looks at it as this moment of like that's what I'm working towards. It's not just the quality of the movies and the consistency of the run, but to understand how to do this as a job. you know, and know every angle of what I need to be on top of. Yeah, because he does his wardrobe fitting in the summer. So he's like, it'll be cool if I'm wearing a leather jacket and a t-shirt. And it's like they're shooting in Chicago in January. It's going to be so cold.

The subtext of the story is that Paul Newman has the level of experience where he can do the math on every one of these things. He's not just thinking creatively. He's also going like, well, wait, when is the scene going to film? And that's an exterior and this and that. And I feel like, Richard, I think it would be good if I was in. inside the Cadillac for that night scene. Plonologically, that feels like the last story he shares in which there is anything aspirational in the Tom Cruise persona.

When he talks about anything he worked on after that, it is just like, I sat at the table and I said, this is what we need to do, right? He tells the stories that are like, I was a little boy and I would repeat movie dialogue while staring at the ceiling while my family life was depressing. And then there's, I look at Paul Newman and I go, this is the guy I want to be. And after that, he is. self-actualized. It is fascinating that I was saying to you, he must have shot this before Top Gun because he still looks kind of funky in this, but he shoots Top Gun first, then shoots this, and then has to

go back and do reshoots for Top Gun. There's the scene where he's coming out of the shower in Top Gun, and that's because they had to wet his hair because he had grown it out. And it was like kind of wavy weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they shoot the love scene in like total shadow for the same reason. Exactly. There's something like that. But it's like he doesn't seem to know what Top Gun's about to do for him. No, none of them do. The way Scoress says he puts it is like, we're getting a little bit of money because of risky business. Like, he's not an

unfamous person. This casting is closer to hiring Miles Teller for Top Gun because you're like, he was good in Whiplash. Right. Yeah. Not like this is clearly the guy. Fox, they get Cruz aboard. Fox turns it down. Columbia turns it down. This is kind of crazy given the, like, the package or whatever.

Katzenberg and Eisner, Disney, grab it. Put it on, you know, it's going to be a touchstone film. They've just taken over there after leaving Paramount. But they make Newman's salary insurance against Scorsese going over budget. So like Scorsese has such a reputation post New York, New York, and such that they're like, even with all this, you know,

even with after hours being cheap and yeah. Yeah, yeah. So he's got the big stars. It's his first time he says working with a movie star. Like it's not like De Niro where like it's his friend. Right. It's different when it's a movie star you help forge. He's like your brother. he puts it as like, right, like, I'm looking at a face that I've been looking at since I was 12.

There's a thousand movies on his face. Newman loves Scorsese. Says he's got an incredible eye. He's on you like a hawk. You can't do like your mannerisms around him. You know what I mean? Like he's like, he's immediately like, don't do that. You know, like, or whatever.

And Newman's like, right, can't be lazy or whatever. I can't like do whatever the usual shit is. I also, some say the best direction Scorsese gave him was, don't try to be. funny. Right, sure. Yeah, yeah. As an overall, and he was just like, that's like really smart, mature direction. Another, right, Cruz connection. You know, Michael Chapman, who is,

of course, says he's cinematographer for like raging bull and stuff, directed all the right moves. So that was another reason for Sussey had his eye on Cruz. Yeah. Obviously, everyone does their own pool playing, you know, because, you know, they got to do it. And obviously, Cruz gets so into it. I was going to say, it is part of the,

Cruz mythology is I feel like this is the first time you hear about him going turbo on crap. The jump ball shot is the one that an expert does. Because that's the one that he was like, I'm sure you could make this. It'll take days for it. But it'll be like nine days to get one shot. But also feels like that's the thing he regrets

for the rest of his career. I couldn't get that. I couldn't have done it. I could have figured it out. I had more in me. I could have done it. You know, Marty's parents are with him. I don't really Do Marty's parents just kind of travel around with him? They shot this movie in Chicago.

Yeah. But I guess they're just there. Cruz, like, has dinner with them every night. You know, he really loves Marty. Yeah, I mean, that's just what he's like. Sauce. Good. And they rehearsed the whole thing.

Like, Newman's very into rehearsals. They block all the scenes out. They do, like, tons and tons of rehearsals, basically, like, word for word. So they're incredibly prepared. and so they shot for like 10 weeks and they did it like, you know, no problem. They didn't go over budget or time. It was under. It was under on both. And it's the only 13 million under 14.5 budget.

It's the only time he did that in his career and it felt like he needed to do that to prove a point. Right. They wanted to shoot New York, but all the kind of classic interesting pool halls were kind of gone. Toronto is, you know, a cheap city, obviously, but like way too clean is basically how they put it. And so they end up in Chicago. They use St. Paul's billiards. Chris's billiards. Chris's billiards.

Chicago's finest. The North Center Bowl. This famous old bar Fitzgeralds, which I feel like is still kind of a classic place that they turned that into a pool room. There's so many. I mean, there's that place. What's it? That storefront that's like Lincoln.

You know, like that's still there. They and they do go to Atlantic City for one day. to shoot the big tournament with all the, you know, the tables together. Did they shoot any of this tournament stuff on stages? Or was that all? Yes, they staged most of it in Chicago's Navy Pier. Okay. But they did some, you know, kind of like establishing.

There's a strange relationship because this movie is kind of a road movie. Yeah. Because they're shooting it all in Chicago. You're kind of like, are they traveling? Are you traveling from the north side of Chicago to the south side of Chicago? Sure. Sure. Shurrying. But I always just in my mind imagine it being like Cleveland to, You know, Chicago, one more stop, Atlantic City, like Philly Atlantic City or something like that.

This is the second Ball House movie, Ball House shot after hours. JJ editorializing here, our researcher, says best DP that Scoress has he ever worked with. I think that's probably true. Yeah, but also, JJ, you're fired. We don't pay you for your opinions. But, you know, there's a lot of stuff here about, you know, the kind of bounce lights he used. I'm not going to go into all of this. Come on now.

What do they call the cameras that could go right behind? kind of a cue ball or a pool ball? I mean, they, I don't know, but I love all that. Lipsic cameras. Oh, yeah. Great name. There you go. They move the camera a lot. Like, Ball House is like, I think out of every, like seven out of every 10 shots, the camera's moving. Like, it's a tracking shot or a moving shot or something.

Like Marty loves to move the camera. I love to move the camera. Marks precisely likes to move the camera. And you're playing pool, which is just, it is a game where you just think about people just kind of like rotating around the table constantly, right? you know what I mean? Like there is a movement to it. But he's doing like all the Spielberg like coverage with camera movement.

So it'll be like push in Vince pan Moselle back to Vince, tilt down to the pool queue, tilt up to Moselle. And you know what I mean? And it's like, oh, that's like seven shots. But you just did it with movement. Which I think that's part of the under schedule, under budget thing, right?

That's always been a famous spieler. thing that he's so forged in the failure of 1941, that he adopts that style for Raiders of just like, I'm going to figure out on the day, what's the quickest, cleanest, smartest way to do this? And then he holds himself to that standard for the rest of his career. Scorsese obviously does not, but it does feel like he strategically knows,

I got to figure out a way to compress this to make everyone trust me again. But those morphing kind of master shots are just exquisite. It also, we've talked about, maybe it has been since Ali, but how there's such a disproportionate amount of great boxing movies to other sports. It's such a cinematic sport. Part of it is that it's so contained and there's so few things you have to track. And it's in such a manageable visual space.

A thing I'm sure we've talked about extensively on a Raging Bull episode. But Billiards is like an even tinier version of that. You know, it's basically a widescreen frame and you're just like, it's bright colors. It's crazy that actually the hustler works as well as it does in black and white. It's such a strange sports movie, this one, because first of all, I think I take it for granted that, you know, people would unnecessarily grasp at any given moment where they are in terms of the scales of who's winning and who's losing. in a match because, for one thing, some of the times they're intentionally losing. Sometimes they're winning to set up the fact that they might lose.

It's rotation pool, so it's like sometimes they're kicking ass, but then a guy is like, it's my turn. You know, like I get to come in. Boxing is so simple. It's like you can have never seen boxing before and be like, I get it. They punch each other until one guy falls down. Right. And it's like pool and the way he shoots pool, it's like there are often times where I'm like,

I wonder if this is the fifth rack. Yeah. is it the ninth rack? It's so interesting that he can pull it off without ever being like, I have to stop and explain everything that's happening here. It's very reliant on the actress performances in that way because you need to look to them as a guide of them playing

what's the status of the game right now. And are they working someone or not? But it also means that basically you just need to depict trick shots. You just need to show us things that look impressive or look unimpressive in a basic binary way. And then it's helpful that like, you can do these fucking crazy camera moves, but actually you're just moving the camera two feet

because you're tracking a very small ball in a very contained space. And a shiny ball moving on felt is really cool. That's really fucking cool. And aren't the rules of nine ball pretty straightforward? They are. I think there's something to that versus it being eight ball.

Yeah. Where it's just like it's very simple. If you get on a run and then you're able to be the one to get the nine ball in, you win. Like it's just, yeah. I think eight ball is also pretty simple. A ball is just solid stripes.

I like to play one ball. That feels like for me, the cleanest of track of just take one ball. Even leave the cue to the side. But they say, and then you just pick it up with your hand and you drop it into the pocket, game over. But they say in the movie that like 9 ball is more action based. Yeah, it's faster. It's like Texas Hold'em. It's like the thing you created to make it feel more like a real sport.

Not that it's not a real sport. I mean, I've watched, like I said, I've watched televised snooker. I've never really seen televised pool. Like, I'm not really aware of like... You clearly are not watching ESPN 2 late enough into the night. Yeah, at 2 a.m. In the 90s. Yeah.

I feel like they were built on that, right? Yeah, like, I don't know what... What's the, like, state of professional pool playing these days? I don't know, actually. Like, there was a... I'm not being funny. Like, there was a run there where there would be... Back when ESPN had less stuff.

And when they were just, like, it's bowling and pool after sports centers. Like, that's what we got. but I don't remember the last time I was like this is the most famous pool player. I was about to say, like, right, who's the best pool player? Whereas like, again, I can tell, Ronnie O'Solvin, baby. Like, Stephen Hendry, I can name like the great snooker players of my childhood. But I don't know who's good at pool.

Like, once in a while, you'll see a bowling clip, which is always fun. Like, you know, some guy being like, that's why I'm the goat. And you're like, I guess that guy's the goat. And those guys now all wear, like, Thanos glumbs to bowl? Wait, isn't that just like a cybernetic arm? Is that fair? Is that allowed?

Obviously, there's like Britain has darts, which is the funniest televised sport because everyone is morbidly obese. And it's in a giant bar where every like the whole crowd is just hammered. That honestly though is like maybe the greatest televised. It's so good. It's watching guys do walk-up songs.

And it's like they're all named Ronnie, you know, and and like people are losing their minds. 180. There's the guy who yells. And the other, God, the crazy thing about snookers, it's always like best of 33 games. Like, where you're like, what's the score? And he's like, he's up 11 to 7. And I'm like, and what does he need?

They're like, I don't know, 18. Yeah. It's like, it's such a, I don't understand. Who's going to see it in person? You go to Sheffield. It's called the Crucible. Yeah. The place where they, and it's crazy.

There's a packed crowd watching it. It can't be a real country. No, no. I was going to say also, why does it feel like so many British sports are like durational to prove a point? Like, people complain about American baseball. American baseball. You know what? You know what? We have enough listeners. Someone explained this because I don't know. The answer is probably like, oh, what do you mean? Like, a snooker game is 20 minutes. Like, it has to be that. I have no idea. Like, I don't know. All I know is I used to watch when I was a kid, the game show, the big break, hosted by Jim Davidson, who later became one of Britain's more prominent pro-Brexit. celebrities. Back in the day, a hilarious light entertainer that was like a snooker game show. That's how popular snooker was in Britain.

Anyway, I looked it up. Carlo Beato of the Philippines won the 2025 World Pool Association 9 ball championship. He kind of looks like a badass. I kind of like his vibe. Maybe if we ever get a color of money where Vince is the old man, Carlo couldn't be the Vince.

Like, do you need be in good shape to be good at pool? I mean, it has to stand a lot. You gotta bend over. You gotta get a good back. You need a good back. Do you need like, you know,

some shoulder strength? For sure, right. You don't know how professional video game players like get worse when they're older and you're like, really? And it's like, yeah, man, like being young, like your brain works better. You know, where it's like even

the thumbs fail. Even fucking this. Like, it is better when you're younger. I know we need to dig into the movie proper. I just need to pick up this thread that CR just draw. because I was thinking this while watching. Like, if Digger doesn't work,

does Cruz go, it's time to make the Vince legacy sequel? Watching this, it felt really obvious to me that if he can't have Newman. No, but he's the guy now. I understand. It would just be like, cool to have Newman. That would suck. Have the one scene where he's like, kid, you got it.

Who would be the young then casting? I don't know. The young person cast. He was Miles Teller and Maverick. Yeah. Who is it now? I don't know. I don't know who it is, but I just was like, of all the legacy secrets,

he's talking about doing Days of Thunder 2. He's talking about doing Maverg. He really shouldn't do Days of Thunder 2. I agree. That is a huge mistake. Especially post-F-1. Post-F-1, it's like, right. There's no room for you here and you're too old.

Yep. Is there, yeah, is there another Cruz legacy sequel that makes sense? The other part of that is that Cruz does genuinely love racing and he said that Paul Newman's the one who got him into it on while filming this movie. Sounds like the kind of bullshit he'd say. Have you read this script for? for rain men yet. Let's get off and back now.

But it's just also like a bunch of guys. Yeah. Many. Many. Yeah. Oh, he's right. He's had a lot of kids. Yeah.

They have to go collect all the rain men. It's just such an obvious thing where like the color of money Oscar feels like shorthand for a kind of gold watch performance, you know? It becomes the representation for even what true grit is of like what's the obvious kind of elder statesman, you are looking back on your legacy and sort of like your movie stardom, we got to give it to this guy, Oscar Wynn. Well, to your point about him,

obviously taking a supporting role in being, like, in some ways, third chair on this movie compared to Newman and Scorsese. It's not, maybe not unique in his films, but it is very clear that, like, Vince is almost the villain of the end of this movie. in some ways and that...

The movie frames it as like this is the problem... This is what we lost culturally. Yeah, yes. Look at how unseemly these guys are. And then it's like, for the first two-thirds of the movies, he's just like regarding Newman...

Yeah, he gets mad at him a couple of times, but for the most part, he's just like, Eddie, you're the man. Like, just show me the ways of the force. You know, like, and it's so different from the way he now is so in touch with, I want people to think this about me at this moment in the movie, you know? And then they have to think this is going to happen, but they know I'm going to prevail.

Also, the fact that Cruz keeps making baton pass movies where he refuses to pass the baton. You know, obviously there's the whole renter thing with Mission Impossible, but then it's also what's fascinating about Maverick is that it's like, no, I'm not going to die. I'm going to save Miles Teller. The movie ends with me being like, and I'm still fucking... in it. Yeah, Maverick, you did it. Right. It's not about me elevating the other guy. Yeah. It does feel like, I don't know, if they announced

tomorrow, like, he's got Benny Safdi, or Josh Safty, I guess is the more exciting pick, right? Working on a Vince movie. Right. Do people get interested? If it's the right director, if it's the right writer. Yeah, sure. I mean, this is the one where you're like, well, I could buy him playing pool. Yeah. Like, versus Days of Thunder.

where it's like, get out of the car, Tom. Like, you know, like, come on. Jesus Christ. You know, like, I'm looking at his 80s. It's funny. It's like, he's good in this movie. Is Cocktailed in the movie right after this? Cocktail is in 88.

So he doesn't make a movie in 87. Yeah, so Cocktail's his next film. Feels like what you're saying of the first time where he's like. No, I'm the best bartender. Right. The arc of that movie is, guy stumbles into a thing, immediately comes better in everyone else in the world. His challenges that no one will give him that credit,

basically. And then a woman does. So a cocktail is, apologies to Bill Simmons, a terrible movie. Yeah. A tremendous amount of fun. It's a good fun.

It's a dog shit movie for the idiots. Stupid movie. Stupid movie. I love it. But it's fun. But he, you know, he's got that in 80,

he balances it with Rain Man where it's like, once again, I'm working with a big director. I'm opposite a bigger actor. In my opinion, he steals Rain Man out from Hoffman. I feel like that's sort of

become the majority opinion of that's the performance. At the time, obviously, that's not the case. Didn't even get nominated. How do people feel about Rain Man now? We did it as rewatchable recently. Have you guys done it?

We've never done Levinson because he's one of those classic guys of like the latter half of his commercial song. Yeah, you'd be like watching the bay, which I kind of like, but you'd be like, okay. You'd be watching like rock the cash box. Yeah. Or whatever.

Like, I mean, I don't know. Like the one where Ben Foster's a boxer. Right. That's an HBO one. Maybe we could skip that. It's just a really. weird movie. It's a very, very watchable movie.

For sure, but it's just like you're like, oh, this is about a car salesman who has a little bit of money trouble and then finds out he has a brother. Right. The stakes of it are oddly low. The thing about it is, it's obviously, you could never do a movie like that today. The Hoffman performances would now be seen as insensitive or whatever. It's an incredibly moving movie,

just like, you know, just the gut, you know, the way it works. But I think most of that's Cruz also. Oh, Cruise is a script. But it's a good script. It is crazy. It's not a movie I've seen a lot. I've seen it like twice. It's crazy when you look at it and you're like,

everyone wanted to make that script. There were so many versions of that movie with different A-list actors and different directors where you're like, you know, Spielberg almost makes it with Bill Murray and the Hoffman part. Like people were like tripping over themselves to get the chance to make this film.

And then it sweeps the Oscars and it's the highest grossing film of its year. It sure was. And so like I guess that's part of the cruise touch at that point. And then the next year he does born on the Fourth of July, which I feel like is the moment where it's like, okay, you're a certified great actor, but then he follows it with like Days of Thunder Far and Away, Few Good Men, the Firm Interview with the Vampire Mission Impossible, a lot of like very sort of crowd forward movies. Like he doesn't make another really like, I mean,

I guess Far and Away is trying to be a serious movie. Yeah. And I think all those movies, sorry. I was just, I got excited a few good men like a sequel. The last good man. A bunch of great people. Well, you're going more. Yeah. You know what? There's a lot of great people in the military these days.

That's the argument for the movie. Nothing excites me more than the sound of a... Look, Nicholson's still alive. It appears to be retired. Guantanamo, you know, it's gone through a couple of iterations since the movie. Demos, you know, rebounded. Like, you know. I was going to say Sorkin'Legas sequel are the same.

scariest words, currently plaguing the modern movie landscape. He's up to no good right now. But then I'm realizing that's another example of it's not Fincher doing the legacy sequel with an entirely different cast, but it is Sorkin making his own legacy

he'll beat Heat 2 to the punch on that. Yeah. Oh, right. We were talking about that off, Mike. We were saying how weird it is that Heat 2 is the same guy making a movie. Yes, with new cast. The same characters recasting every role. Yeah, a few good men. obviously Rob Reiner recently died.

That is tragic. That probably makes a few good men like a sequel even less likely. Also, what would it be about? Also, what are we doing here? Also, are there still lawyers who prosecuted of military? No, no, no, no. The judge checks the truth social fee and sees what Trump has said and makes his decision. I mean, by the time this episode comes out, maybe the social reckoning trailer is out there, almost definitely.

That movie is by all accounts. like 90% courtroom? It sounds like that's the the gist of it? He's really good at that stuff. He is. You know, or like he knows how to... But that might be... What if you do? Your few good men, legacy sequel might be a few bad websites. Okay, listen.

Tom Cruise is a... Tom Cruise is a judge advocate general in a few good men, right? He's a JAG. As we all know, NCIS is based on JAG. It's a spinoff. Technically, it's been off of the TV show, Jack. We all know this. The legacy sequel is them untangling the media rights of NCIS in a court. Oh, that would be fun. And it's just kind of like, wait, and this counts too?

Like, LL Cool J's testifying for some reason, right? You know, just like digging into all of that. Because now there's the NCIS spinoff that's young Mark Harmon that's created by Mark Harmon's son, but Mark Harmon's son doesn't play. He was recast. Young Mark Harmon, even though he played young Mark Harmon on. And, yeah. So in this iteration, is Chris O'Donnell going to play the Keyfer Sutherland role?

Has to. Like vaguely, like, maga kind of like. Yes. Like somewhat coded. Right. Where you're like, what were you doing? No,

uh, that's, um, let's talk about the color money. Let's talk about the color money. Oh my God. It opens like many great films do with Martin Scorsese, the director,

doing voice over, even though he's not a character in the film. Yeah? Just being like, let me, uh, explain a thing to you. Uh,

the most grotesque and also the most beautiful image of a cigarette where you're like, I gotta have that. Immediately. I'm just also like, look at that. smoke and drink so badly. Look at that ash falling off of it. That's what goes into your lungs. This is the worst thing that we've ever done to ourselves. As a former smart code, this is triggering. This made me want to drink and smoke so bad. I've never smoked a cigarette in my life.

Movies like this, I'm just, again, I'm like, I need to move into a pool hall. I need to become addicted to brown liquid that makes my head swim. I truly was like, this needs to be a mandatory road trip thing where like, like some old head and like a 20-something have to like be linked up. And it doesn't even have to be like that I need to learn how to be a pool hustler. But they have to learn some. But I just want to like scum apprenticeship. Scum apprentice would be a great franchise.

Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Ben has a franchise who's been trying to launch for children called scum friends. Yes. Okay. Look, it's a big tent. You know, we could have G-rated stuff,

but we could also then Scum Apprentice is like we're going in and we're learning about hustling and cons. Scum Friends is sort of, that's metaphorically what it's about, that we should not cast judgment on the outcast of society, but it's literally physical manifestations of like, live in pipes. It's like, I'm a professional. I knew Chris would get this.

I'm a professional pool player, I say, to a woman in a bar. Yeah. And she's like, oh, so you're like a low life. Then below that is like, I'm a professional pool player who often pretends to be bad and so I can score money off of people and maybe I'm going to get knifed outside where it's like, wait, you found

a scumier version of professional pool player to be? Like, were you not satisfied just being in pool halls all day? Here's another thing about how appealing the world of this movie is to us. My friend Alejandro had a joke he used to tell about where he would refer to liquor as magic water that makes you sick. And for how much this movie is about drinking

and he's a liquor salesman and it makes it look fucking awesome. He's like putting glasses into people's mouths being like taste that sweet sweet whiskey. But it's also, this isn't like madmen drinking. This is like you see like, oh right, the magic water makes you sick. This guy looks bad.

He's depressed. I've been on the East Coast for five days. I haven't had a vegetable. It's not even like focused romantic, like self-punishing Bukowski drinking. It's actually just like... No, but I can feel my body slowly dying just doing like three days of this.

And that's what he does every morning. Like, there probably are no mornings because all he does is get up at 4 p.m. You feel this movie in your time. And meets with a woman who's inexplicably wearing a kimono and is like, try this old McDonald. It's like, I mean... It's bonded.

It's magical water that makes you said. Put it in your lips. It's the old, the Malaney joke of like, did the bathroom as Stirling Cooper? Paper price sound like a haunted house. I'm not watching this movie being like, I wonder what kind of shits Paul Newman takes. But like the second you start thinking about it,

you're like, right, we're not watching six hours of the guy on the John with a paper. Like, which must be built. They're eating at diners and white castle. Exactly. And they smoke and drink all day. Yes. Yeah.

And he's the hottest any man has ever been. But in that way, same as Slapshot. Yeah. He is, he's correctly depicted as like, as a battered piece of shit. And yet he's still the hottest thing you've ever seen. I'm in the verdict. Like this era...

Well, in the verdict, you're like, oh, no. Like, I mean, and like, he is so fucked up. Yeah. And in the verdict, he's also like, I'm an ambulance. He's like, check out my apartment, which is also my office. That movie rolls. At least in this one, it's like, you're like, you're like, you're a pool player.

That's cool. And the verdict, you're like, wow, you suck. There's like the first time you see the verdict. And he's not going to put on cool glasses, you know? A good thing. first time you see the first. Oh, no. When you first watch it, you're just like, boy, are there gals out there like Charlotte Rampeling

a go for guys like this? Because that can open up a lot of windows for me. And then you realize it's a scam. He's doing things, right. She's the hustler in that movie. I think on the big pick legal draft, I call that the greatest burnished wood movie of all time. This one has a... But this is

on the podium with that. It's in there. Yeah. Yeah. I asked for and did not receive one of the most unique creations in furniture history, which is the pool hall chair. Okay, talk about this. You wanted to podcast from

pool hall chair. Yes, yes, you sent us a photo. It's this elevator elevated wooden throne that overlooks so that you get like a good angle on the action. It's technically known as a spectator chair. I was going to say it almost looks like a lifeguard chair

or like a fucking tennis referee. Or it's kind of like a director's chair in a weird kind of a way. And it also looks a little bit like a shoe shine chair, but like the way that in that opening sequence when Vince is playing Julian, Carmen's there, we're meeting all the main characters. He kind of just saddles up there and is like, I'm going to stretch my legs out and put my arm out over the other side of the chair.

But I'm looking down on Carmen and I'm like, where did you fucking find this stuff? I mean, I guess it's still, this was made at a time when they just still had those places looked like they did. I think so. They've just been frozen in amber. Also, man, Newman just fucking knew how to strike a pose. and he could do it in a way where it felt natural. It wasn't like he was doing some overly expressive John Wayne thing.

But that guy could just fucking sit and hold the frame. And just know, like, if I just lean like 10% of my weight over to this side, the king. He is retired. He's a liquor salesman. He lives in Chicago.

Yeah. But he still hangs out of pool halls all the time. He's like Dake's younger players. He wants to watch. Yeah, he likes to watch. He's got a definitely not at all long-suffering girlfriend, played by Helen Shaver. No, who becomes, like, one of TV's greatest directors. Yeah.

Yes. Oh, I didn't really. Yeah, wow, she has a huge directing. Insane. Like, she directed, like, two episodes of The Penguin. Like, she's still to this day, one of the most awarded TV directors. Yeah, she's working hard. But yes, no, a tough break for her.

Yeah, dating him. Sure. Yes. And he's, the player he's staking is John Titoro who is calm, cool, collected. He's on cocaine and getting boat-raced by a guy who likes to play video games. When the phone rang John Titoro's house, it's like, hey, we want you to play a little rat piece of shit.

He's playing a squiggle is what. It's like, does my character have any cool traits? He's like, yeah, you have a rock of coke in your nose. He looks like fear from inside out. He's so good in this. He's great. He's always good in these movies. It's incredible for...

For how early this is in his career, it's insane how he's already short-hand casting in a way that is so powerful. The audience is just like, boom! Try the Turotype. Find Tom Cruise immediately. I think the first time I saw him was Miller's crossing it. I was like, you fucking piece of shit.

It's just like this Millis Crossing Quiz Show, that kind of trifect of everyone just being like, there's something I don't like about you. I've rewatched quiz show, I guess after Redford died. It does feel like a movie I watch once a year. And every time I watch it, I just don't understand how he didn't, like, win the Oscar that year, let alone get nominated. But because it's the metatechual one where it's just like, even if you're the best, we just kind of, there's something about you.

I feel like he's settled into his own interesting elder statesman mode. Tatoro? Yeah. I mean, like, where he no longer has that energy. Like him and the Batman where it's like I can play like an icy mob boss. Right. With like, you know, shaded glasses and people are like,

yeah, of course you're you are an elder statesman. Like you fit. And he's like hot now too. You're also like old Tataro's hot. He's got to, he directed a film that's coming out soon, right? Like the only pickpocket New York or something. No, Noah Segan directed that. Oh, he directed.

But Terturo's in it. But I've heard Tatoro's incredible on that. Like a friend of mine who saw that movie was like, this is like the Tataro career lifetime achievement. Obviously, he has directed many a great film such as the Jesus Rolls. Are you aware? So, because I brought this up to someone else recently who was astonished by this news. The Jesus Roles, which of course was the Jesus Santana side cool to Big Lobowski that he made

without the participation of the Cohen brothers. But with their blessing? The passive blessing. Yeah, I think they were like, okay. If we don't have to show up, you can do whatever you want. That movie is a remake. In addition to being a side quote to Big Lobowski, it is him transposing that character onto a straight remake of going places.

The movie Hitmaker recently called out the Departue, Bertranda, yep, 100%. It is like, it's a sex challenge road trip movie. It is credited as like based on going places. Okay. I want to remind everyone that the character of the Jesus in the Big Lebowski is a sexual predator, yeah.

Convicted child molester. And John Toturo was like, you know it'd be good. Make a whole movie out of that guy. And have him horny on the road. Is it his redemption? No, it's like him and his friend like daring each other to do weird sex stuff. Just one of the weirdest things ever made.

People were like, why aren't you guys covering that on Patreon? I'm like, I don't know. I want to be able to sleep at night. So you're staking Vincent Loria, right? No, sorry. No, Vincent is Thomas, Tom Cruise. What's staking Julian, right. Vincent kicks his ass.

And what's the video game he's obsessed with? Stalker. Is that a real video game? It apparently influenced the actual video game Doom. But to me, it just looks like Spy Hunter or like Pole Position or some 80s, you know, car racing game. And now where would you guys rank this in? in the Tron franchise. I think I like the original Tron more than this,

but this one's better than Ares or legacy. What was the video game in Last Starfighter? Was it just called Last Starfighter? It's called Starfighter. Starfighter. That was always pretty sick to me, but yeah, stalker seems pretty. It's weird that he's like,

my motor skills are so elevated because of Stocker. And I'm like, that doesn't really, that's not how it happens. But I'm sure it's a Disney thing, but I just genuinely love that there's a Tron cabinet in this. And obviously the Tron cabinet was like real and was more successful than the movie and stayed in arcades for years. But it does make it feel like this is a movie that takes place in the world of Tron.

That would be so incredible. Yeah. So he, you know, Vincent, he's got charisma. He's got a hot girlfriend named Carmen, played by Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio. I don't know where she was in her career at this point. Like, oh, it's her second movie. She's in Scarface. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So Scarface is her first. She apparently is an extra in the King of Comedy, but I doubt, like, Marty knew her from that. No, it must have been just from Scarface. She's, I'm just going to say it, a total smoke show. She is.

She's so good in this movie. She's an actress I like a lot, generally, but I feel like she is attractive in this. She's activating things in me watching this that I don't usually feel from her performances. Like some fucking rules in the abyss. Yeah. When she comes back, when he gets,

gives him the balabushka. But then, like, Newman's, like, drive him crazy. Like, go, go be really remote. And then she comes back in packing her pack of cigarettes. I was just like, well, just take my life. It's fascinating because it's like... I was going to say it's... Take my life as good.

It's fascinating because it feels like he's having a love at first sight moment with them. With just their dynamic, witnessing the whole kind of operation of what's happening. the energy around them, the potential. I think there's also like a not too hidden, like there's a longing for sexual vitality. Because he's talking omelets and these guys are just like, she's talking about like the loudness of his break, you know? And he's watching him, you know, with this stick in his hands and dancing around the table and doing his samurai sword stuff. But to your point, there's also like a relapse element.

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. Watching Totoro play billiards is safe for him. It's like drinking a non-alcoholic beer, right? It's sort of just like, you know what? This was such a structure of my life that I need a version of this for the routine, for the habit, that isn't actually harmful to me and habit forming.

And then he witnesses like the uncut shit. It's right there and he's just like, oh, fuck. I remember being that guy. What if I was her? What if I was managing someone like him? Like every angle of it is so activating to him. Isn't it also it's like because they're a package? He's like, you guys would hustle so well together.

Right. Yeah, because you guys are so good together. Which is part of what he misses is the symbiotic nature of it. You know, and the hustler, the original film is so much about that dynamic. The sort of tragedy of him fucking up the partner he had who he valued and felt safe with and then getting fucked by the new flashier partner who, like, destroys his life. And that pushed him away from all of it.

Right. And it's like, yeah, part of him, you know, having this long-term stake in Taturro is like, how extreme is that ever going to get? Well, I say the economics of it are also kind of interesting because inflation aside, like, they're passing 20s back and forth, right?

Like, I don't know. Yeah, he's like if, when they talk about going on the road, he's like, we could make five grand, you know, which is a lot of money in 1986, but it's, I don't know if it's down payment money. Yeah, that's not my one last score kind of money. So it's kind of like this is, it's a grind.

Like, and it's just like you're trying to find fun in the grind, but I don't. He seemingly has money. He's like seemingly well enough off. Sure. He's hiring around wads. Yeah. Well, she's like, like, does he have like a bank account? Yeah.

He's just got a shoe box. He's Wad, one. Yeah, exactly. So what happens? I mean, they pretty quickly go to Atlanta. He's like, I got to take that to dinner. He goes to dinner. Right, there's the whole thing.

And he does that whole, like, kind of scam, basically. Yeah, like, I'm going to take this girl home. She's going to reject him in 30 seconds. I walk out of here. Well, let's call it. Must like the hustler, like this opening scene, the whole, like, Helen Shaver, trying to sell the liquor, the, uh, Titoro, noticing them, starting to talk to Master Antonio, like, buttonholing her.

All of that is basically a sustained, like 20-minute chunk of the movie, much like the hustler, where you're just really staying in this space and the dynamics of all of it. There's also, like, that's where you start to get the rhythms and the intonations of the script. And I do love all of the lore about them working Price to the bone and sending him back and back and back to just tighten it and tighten it. And Price has talked about, like, I, you know, I would write this stuff. and I would be like, this sounds incredible in my head. And then they would say like it's too written, it's too written.

And so there is this like... It feels like a classic novelist screenplay problem. Yeah, but a lot of that opening sequence that you're talking about, so much of it is just them giving each other looks. So like when Vincent is like, let's just play play for play, because I think the money is getting in your head. And Newman just like looks up and he's like, what the fuck did he just say? But he doesn't say like no one never talks like that in the point.

fool haul. You know, it's just a look, but it tells you everything. And when Vincent is asking that, Carmen is like, Vincent, because she's like, we do this as a job. Like, this is how we make money. You can't be throwing away games against Julian here because he's $20 rack. It's just like such a perfect setup for that world. You can just know without knowing what you're dealing with. It's also the classic movie star thing. You know, insecure actors in sort of leading positions, you always hear more dialogue, more jokes, more awesome moments. And the guys and gals who are just completely minted are like, take all this out.

I can sell that in a look. I don't need this paragraph to explain it. Give me the three line, the three word version of that line, or let me truly just do it in a glance. And like Newman knows that he can do that. Yeah, I wonder what the longest stretch of uninterrupted speaking from Felsen is in this movie. It can't be, is there a monologue in this movie, really? I mean, there's him in the... car with Cruz, but that's pretty sure.

I would say it's after Forrest Whitaker. That's when it is. Right. Where he's been brought low. Right. But I love that this movie doesn't translate at all to that point, that you feel like the worst version of this movie, even though it would have a kind of trashy joy to it, is one where Newman's like, kid, I'm going to teach you the ropes. And then he breaks down every single thing. Even just the way he starts saying at this dinner scene, which, to your point is very sexual.

charged. The whole thing feels like, is he sexually coveting Cruz? Is he trying to cut Cruz? Is he trying to be the third? He's also sort of like trying to show his sexual prowess through the scam of him pretending he's picking up the woman, like all that stuff. But that's Lorraine Brocko's sister. Hey, yeah. With Brockow. Yeah. Huh. Who knew? And she's Vito's wife in the Sopranos? I don't think I knew that. I am realizing we're

finally making good on our promise that we have to cover Goodfellas on this podcast because this podcast has been so damaging to Lorraine Braco, where we have only covered her worst performance is ever. Wait, apart from Medicine Man, what's the other one? Pinocchio. I forgot about that. Chris, how recently have you watched Roberts and Mechus's Pinocchio? When was the last?

Actually, I've never seen it. Wait, what? I've never seen it. You mean you haven't seen it yet this calendar here? No, but I was listening to, um, I was listening to fearless. And I just wanted to say Zemachus-wise, I will sometimes watch flight

on a flight. That's absolutely. I'm like... Because the action is the juice. I'm like you. Do you like navigate to it on the in-screen entertainment? I have it on my phone.

I was going to download it and I'll just be like... They're like, we don't have that movie you maniac and they're like, fine, let's crack the iPad open. You hold on to an iPod video just to have flight in your pocket at all times. But I do it. I roll it. So I watch it upside down. Yeah, right.

When he's rolling. calling it. No, she plays a seagull in the Zemecas Pinocchio. That's an added character that is horrendous. Yeah. It sounds like she is dying.

She's a great actor. But it's her being like, Pinocchio! The fuck is going on! That was all the money we had, Pinocchio! And we've like, maybe there's a third one I'm forgetting,

but she is so... I think that's probably it. She is so shrill and unpleasant in that end in medicine, man. both of which are just horrible miscastings in ill-begotten films where we've had to be so rude to her and we've said like,

I think we must do Marty at some point just to put some respect on Lorraine Bronco's name. I'm glad we'll get to do. I don't know how many other movies we'll even ever like hit with her. She doesn't have that many films. If we do Gus Van Sant

will get even Cowgirls get the blues. Yeah. That might be it. Like, I mean, we're not, yeah. Maybe we do Richard Donner, radio flyer. Oh, sure.

I don't know. She didn't make a ton of... Oh, you know what? We'll do Penny Marshall. We will... A penny for our... But isn't that one where she's like... Get you pregnant!

Like, I didn't see that movie since the kid. Don't ride in cars with boys! Ride on bicycles alone! They were gonna find it! But it's like... Isn't it that Goodfellas broke her a little bit of like, you can scream your head off in the movie and it makes sense.

Just put a revolver in your underwear. It's funny because she rarely ever raised her. her voice in the soprano's like at all. No, she's also quiet for long stretches of Goodfellas. He uses that as a superpower. And she has good reason to scream in Goodfellas. It's stressful. Yes.

And also everyone's fucking screaming, except for De Niro. At the dinner scene, and I just like even the sexual energy of him propositioning her for dinner and being like, what do you mean you want to take us out? Like, she clearly at first views

it as this old man is hitting on me. and I don't know if I'm interested or not, but then doesn't understand what he wants out of the two of them together. And then he goes on to explain it where he's like he's a thoroughbred, like you make him run, you make him feel good, I teach him how to play.

Because I think to her she's like, if it's about the pool, then why is he even bothering with me? Right. And if it's about me, then why is he being bothering? Because he has to construct this entire, like, she's getting bored of you working at Toys or Us

or Child World. Child World, of course. I'm thinking of reviving child world, by the way. What do you guys think? That's where the third Jay-Zus Santana movie happens. It's just like, you see something like this, and you're like, what child wants to go in there? That was like private equity before there was private equity.

Like, can we just get a kid world or a child world even? Could you imagine the fucking field day Fox News would have what child world today? The conspiracies would just write themselves. Just camped outside. Yeah. Just the only other thing on the dinner is shout out to whoever was the, like, the food, food art person in this. Because it's, because it's like the chocolate moose, the cup of coffee, the after the digest deep, it's all like a raid there at the perfect level of like, I had three bites of that. I had a sip of this.

I had a sip of that. Like it's the, we've had a big long steakhouse dinner dessert. And like Paul Newman 50 Pictures kid shit. Like, he knows exactly how to eat on camera, what to eat, when to take the bites for emphasis. To the point of the movie not feeling they need to hold your hand or translate things. The way he talks about, like, you're quite a character kit. And Cruz is like, yeah, right? And he's like, no, I mean, in a negative way, you're a flake, but it's hard to be a flake in this and that.

And you're just like, great, I know enough. I don't need you to spell this out to me. I understand what you're saying. I understand there's more to it if I dug deeper to this lingo. but let's just, we're off to the races. This guy knows everything, and they just want to be next to him. Right. Vincent is like, you know, raw putty,

like he's going to get molded. But we're not going to watch him do, like, training montage with that. There's one montage in the film. It's well deployed. It's much later. Like, yes, there is no point and he's like, you know, you've got to pop the balls one to nine, as we all remember or whatever. Okay, so they go to Atlantic City,

right? The next chunk's in Atlantic City. Right? Well, it's leading up to Yeah, yeah, they do a whole road trip around the Midwest. They're on the road, they're ending up in Atlantic City, right, but that's... It's like, hey, why don't we go on the road a couple weeks? We're going to make a couple grand, and then we're going to go to Atlantic City, and all the games outside of the tournament are where you make all your money.

Right. Well, get in my caddy. I get, how much does he get like 60% of their winnings or something? It's a little fucked up. But he's paying for the lodging and food. Yeah. And by the way, in the hustler, It's 75.

That's George C. Scott's deal with him. Right. I do think it's important that he's offering a better deal than the one he was given. Yeah. They should have gotten George C. Scott back. They should have. He's still alive at this point. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. He was federally barred from entering any pool halls. The drunkest man in the world. That's right.

His last film was Angus, I think, which is like 96. Right. Yeah. Haven't seen. U.S. Marshals pull him out of any of it. Why he goes in. Right. Well, no, it's just more like they're like,

George C. Scott went in a bar, filming has been delayed by eight days. Like, it's just, I mean, that was like the vibe back then. Did George C Scott win Best Actor once or twice? Just once. Okay, just for Patton. Yeah. He was nominated for the hustler.

Yes. I think it's part of why Gleason doesn't win is there's two hustler supporting actor nominees. We were, because we were talk about this the other day. I was calling out how crazy it is that Gleason also never won an Emmy. And your point was, well, the honeymoon only ran for one season.

Right. I mean, like, he was nominated twice before, I did research on this. I think Jackie Gleason show, which of course had like the Ralph Cramden sketches in it. And it had the originator. He had producing nominations, writing nominations, acting nominations. Honeymooners ran for one year.

And also there was... I always thought Honeymooners was like 500 episodes. That's what everyone thinks. Like it was like one of those like I Love Lucy type shows. But yeah, 30 episodes for one year or whatever. The other thing is he was nominated, I think, in 1952 for Best Comedian, which was just a category. It wasn't comedy special.

At the Oscars? No, for the Emmys. It's like best host and best comedian. And I think he lost to Durante, maybe. I wouldn't put it past the Oscars. I mean, what about best comedian? They didn't do that. Yeah.

I mean, that's kind of what the Globes fried to do. Right. You know, it didn't work out. The thing I was going to say is just to tell Ben, because I think you would appreciate this, Frutche Scott, most ornery man in the world from the hustler. That's his first nomination. His first nomination is for anatomy of a murder.

Oh, good call. His second is for the hustler. Refuses the nomination. This is the thing. There's a big note on the Oscars for that year, which is George C. Scott refused the nomination. He refused to accept it as valid. George C. Scott was very anti-awards show.

He was just like, acting shouldn't be a competition. This is ridiculous. Never showed up. Anytime they nominated him, he was like, fuck off. So he just publicly was like, fuck that. Yeah, he wasn't like, I'm not going to show up. was like, I call bullshit on your whole thing. So he would,

he reject the nomination and they would then give it to like the next alternate? No, no. They just were like, well, you're nominated. He's like, well, I refuse. And they're like, too bad. Go on a Wikipedia and IMDB. It always has like parenthetical, George Scott didn't show up, refuse the nomination. And then he wins for Patton

in 70 and obviously does not show up. And then he was nominated once more for the hospital. I couldn't remember if he also won for the hospital, but yeah. No. They gave it to him the one have her patent with her. Like, look, you're one of the greatest actors ever and you just were in this movie that's winning best picture and you're so good in it. And he was like, I

refuse. Fuck you. We're giving it to you anyway, Georgie. How funny would it be if he showed up for the hospital Oscars and was sitting there, like, really nervous with his that was like for Exorcist 3. I really think I nailed it this time. He's fucking good. I regret not going and giving a speech.

So, all right, call her money. Come on. Come on. The first pool hall he tries to take them to is now just like a furniture. That's the Lincoln place. There's something to that of just showing that he's like an old man now.

You're an artifact. Yeah. Now, when you watch it. Lincoln Tap Room, that's what it's called. Right. And then when you watch it, you're kind of like, at what point do these people start playing one another? Right? Like, at what point is Mary Elizabeth

Master and so is Carmen starting to think about how will we get out? How are the wheels turning? Right. Why are we giving him this percentage? And what point is he like, I'm using Vincent as a mechanism to like get myself back into this. What's the long play? Exactly. But like I don't think that the pool hall that never opened, but that leads to, I believe the next place is the... He's playing the old man with the trache. The old man with the

trache. It's like kind of a shitty, almost like VFW. And that's the fight where he's just like family. God damn it. Get your hands off. Yeah. He plays this, pretends to be his dad. Yeah. Who's disappointed in it. Yeah. When does he lecture Master Antonio? I feel like that's pretty early on when she's kind of like sitting around Brawis. That is they've arrived already at Bill Cobbs House of the Holy It's after Cruz has gotten the shit kicked out of

him. Yeah. And he goes in and they, this is the most kind of like, I think legible like pool hall where they walk in and they're like, that's the best guy, but that's the richest guy. And if you

beat the best guy, the richest guy won't want to play you. But if you fumble around for a while, the richest guy might get curious, and then we're working with thousands of dollars. But Moselle, you're just playing this guy for 20 bucks a throw. And is cop, I, cops the fucking best. Cops so good in this. I know. He also just basically doing a paragraph of dialogue with a look in this. Yes. I mean, that man could really sell a hundred years of life with a, just like a glance. He's the owner of the, he's the owner. He's the owner. It's said he has fucking hand in the the world. Yeah. And he's also the

magical janitor in Hudsucker proxy, but he's in 8,000 things. But this is, the scene you're referring to is when Newman goes into the motel room and she's in her underwear and a flannel shirt tied around her stomach. And he goes, keep the shirt, nice touch. Yeah. And then he says, you know, where's the Balabushka? Yes. And she's like, well, he went out. It's like, and you let him

like he has to go after the other the other thing with the scene uh bend you know a lot of

the hustler which I assume you haven't seen the original you probably like you would love it I want it I just I didn't get time

no no I know I'm just saying like you'd probably dig a lot of it's five yeah the movie is basically equally a very tragic love story

it's got a very very very dark romantic piper piper Lori as sort of a very broken woman they're two

kind of broken people who find each other in their dysfunction. And the way he's talking to Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio in this scene where he's clearly attracted to her, but he's also saying like, and would you dress like this if any man walked in here and what if it was a guy like this? It's all kind of like fascinating, not overstated echoes of him still struggling to process the tragedy of the original film. Yes.

There was a whole situation in that movie of men in sexual violence. And you kind of, this is the first time where Cobb mentions that you get at least just a little bit of sense of the legacy of this guy. And they, I think that's the first time where they refer to him by his nickname. Yeah. And there's, this is also the first time he plays pool in the movie. Is when he's playing with Vincent just to, just to hit some balls.

Right. and to like draw a little bit of attention. That's when you get the crash soon. And yeah. Fuck, I'm alive. The, which I guess kind of brings us to werewolves. And I wanted to ask you guys about this.

I think I've, this is an idea that like I, I'm obsessed with is the, the flight of the Valkyries problem in a movie. When it peaks too early. When you peak at minute 55. Yep. And when if,

if anything was better than, this, it would be like the greatest movie of all time. Yeah. I will say this. This film has an incredible ending. Like literally, like the last two minutes of this film, you're like, hell yeah. But yes, this is tough to tough this moment here. It's also interesting because Fly the Valkyreys problem is the exact right way to put it.

There are movies where... Everyone's like, I love Apocalypse Now. I, of course, I always stop watching about 65 minutes. It's also one of these things. It's not like all movies usually great. films peak at the ending. You go through history and you're like, what's the best scenes? Sometimes it's the opening. Sometimes it's the middle. Sometimes it's here or whatever. It is a distinct thing of a movie hitting a level of transcendence where you're just like,

this is as good as shit gets. I wouldn't rather be anywhere else in the world right now. I could watch this forever and you feel them sort of like not fully successfully dismount off of that. The movie doesn't comfortably transition you from that high into something that feels equally satisfying, or even if the movie still remains excellent, you're just like, I am thinking about

how much better I felt 20 minutes ago, though. He has, I'm sure you guys will talk about all of them throughout this series, a series of moments in his movies that remain transcendent despite the level of analysis.

So you can watch the Copacabana I want her, or you can watch Werewolves of London, or you can watch like all these different scenes, and you can just be like, I can watch this and think about every single thing that has to happen for this shot to work. Or I can just listen to the music and watch

the guys. I can just vibe. Yeah, and it never, the magic never goes away even once you know what the trick is. Goodfellas is an interesting comparison point because it has like four of these. And is the problem that if you have multiple scenes at that level of transcendence, it evens out.

You have multiple tent poles that are elevating us and bringing us down versus if there's just one kind of peak moment at the middle that is so perfect. But I feel like I can watch the fucking Shinebox scene 8,000 times, never get tired of it. But when that scene ends and the movie continues if I'm watching Goodfellas in full, I'm not disappointed.

I'm not like, can we rewind back to Shinebox? I was rewinding this. I was literally just kind of like going like, Let me go back to the beginning of this one more time. Just when he hits, though, the line, his hair is perfect. And you realize that Tom Cruise is like, it's not just being played over the scene.

He's in it. Like, the song is being played in the room. There's also early Robbie Robertson, like, dubmaster stuff going on here where... The Robbie stuff in this is so fucking good. It goes from, first of all, like, they're playing... Well, first of all, in the script, it's James Brown. So that's, it's supposed to be James Brown.

Oh, wow. Weirwolves of London. World's London is the perfect choice. I know, but that's like, it's the difference between Scorsese and Richard Price. Richard Price is like, hey, he's listening to fucking James Brown. And then Mark Scorsese, like, what have we did? What James Brown song would it be? Like the big payback?

No, it's faster. I can't remember what it is. I have the script on the laptop. I'll look for it. But it's like diagetic. So it's like playing through a PA system at the pool hall. And they're playing Clapton. And then when they cut to werewolves, it's Paul Newman.

driving down to the pool hall to meet them. And in the opposite lanes or whatever whatever sound design choice they made, the car horns are in time to the beat of the song. And you're like, who thinks of this? Who thinks of going

eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, like, with the fucking song. Yes. I'm a huge Warren Zevon guy. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the show before. Are you a, you guys, pro Warren Zeevon? I think it's that one album of his that I really love. The second album? the self-titled? Yes.

That is the greatest rock album of the 70s. He's just such a unusual guy. There is nobody like him. This career is so weird. Excitable Boy is the album you're talking about, right? Audible voice's third album, which has Werewolves of London on it, which is a good album. His second album,

Warren Zeevon, is the greatest rock album of the 70s. It is the best. The one that begins with Frank and Jesse James ends with Desperado of Some of the Eves. It's basically like hanging out all night in an LA bar. The last song, it's four in the morning, and you're like, we should all kill ourselves.

It'll be so great. What's his first album then? His first album is called Wanted Dead or Alive. And he's like, you know, it's got some stuff. But like, Warren's even, he never topped it. Like, the second album. Like, he made music for another 50 years. Well, he had kind of became the Werewolves of London guy.

He had that, though, last album when he, the wind, which is really good. And his, like, kept him enjoying. every sandwich stuff and all that, which like I, you know, that was all very profound. I'm not like shitting on it. Have you guys ever heard or seen Adam Sandler doing wear rolls of London? No. You know what?

I can imagine it. He's going, ah, woo. But he like crushes it. There's that thing with Sandler where he's an incredible singer. Yeah. But it feels like he's almost embarrassed by how beautiful a voice he has. So even when, especially when does his comedy music, he kind of like does a comedy voice on top of it.

and other things where he's sung. But then they're like, the scenes in Wedding Singer where people are like, this is dubbed, right? He's not this good of a crooner. And all of it's real.

When Zivon died, they did a tribute album called, Enjoy Every Sandwich, which was his quote from his final Letterman interview. And Sandler did Werewolves of London as a recording, but also performed it live on Letterman. And it's incredible. Wow.

And you're sort of like, oh, what, he's having fun. I can imagine. Yeah, he's a typical. doing like Werewolves of London but he just sings the shit out of it. It's awesome. I highly recommend it.

The song is awesome. I also love that. Cocktail is the beginning of, and I guess it starts in Top Gun, but it's only after the success of Top Gun that Cruz identifies this. In Top Gun it feels more reflective of the Brockheimer Simpson worldview

and then Cruz takes it with him until the couch jump roughly early 2000s, let's say, late 90s. Tom Cruise movies are primarily about a guy who is the fucking best at something. Either he's always been the best or he's immediately

becoming the best so quickly. And people doubt him. They're like, hey, hot shot, too fast, too much, you're feeling yourself. Like, take it down a peg. And he's like, fuck you. I'm the only one who can save us. I'm better than you think I am and I'm going to

prove you wrong. There's like a distinct lack of learning in a kind of like peak Tom Cruise movie star movie. And part of what's so electrifying of the werewolves of London scene is you're like, this guy is going to crash. You're watching a guy who's just like feeling himself way too hard. When he starts doing the fucking karate moves, you know, him singing along, as you said that he's like making the lyrics about himself in a way. And you're watching Newman watch him and be like, this guy doesn't understand.

how much suffering he has ahead of him in his life. He also, but like he's so bad at being a, it's the flake thing. It's like he's so bad at throwing or at like sandbagging so that they can entice this guy because he's beating Moselle one-handed. He's like, I'm just fucking dancing around the table and Moselle sits down like he's like, I know I'm not going to hit again, you know? And like that's where Eddie chews him out of like you're losing us money, right? Like you're, yeah, if you're this good, no one wants.

wants to play you or no one wants to you're losing you're making money on this game you're losing money on the next five games everyone else who's standing around watching you is never going to fucking approach the whales it's the it's the incredible like paternal figure thing where he'll he yells at him and then he's like Vincent get in the car

you're like a high school girl who got felt up at a drive in you know like Ben the hustler is like very existential and the main thing in the movie is this guy is really good even the elder states are kind of acknowledging like, fuck, in like a year he might be the best in the world.

But there's this early scene where George Cee, Scott calls him a loser after he's like won. And it's just sort of like fundamentally you're a loser. Like you have the mentality of a loser. And what he's calling out is a certain vulnerability of this guy so badly needing to be seen as the best. And that desperation, even though he doesn't do this kind of peacocking,

even though he is good at like throwing people off, he wants it a little too badly. That's what undoes him when the Forrest Whitaker character in color of money beats him. He's like basically like, I've uncovered the old wound of where you're just like, you're a dupe. Because without fully spoiling it, where the hustler ends is he experiences this like tremendous tragedy. And at the end he shows up and he's like, I'm a winner, you're a loser. Basically because I've lost everything and I'm hollowed out now inside, like I don't feel the stakes of losing. I have nothing left to lose, which makes me invincible.

And you see the Jackie Gleason character, who is the best in the world, look at him and be like, fuck, this guy's dangerous now. You know, he doesn't even try to step up to him. And so there is this whole feeling of Newman lashing out at him being like, this guy doesn't understand that like eventually something in his life will humble him, that he is going to be hollowed out. And he is peacocking so much more than I did at my peak,

that this fall is going to be fucking brutal. And it's, yes, the Forrest Whitaker thing is it hits him so hard because he, Newman thinks he is decades past being able to care that much. Right. It's not just that he got hustled. It's how it hurts. Well, he gets hustled at the thing that he says he's the expert. Right.

Because he gets, he says like pool excellence. It's not about excellent pool. It's about being a student of human moves. And he just misses that Forrest Whitaker's playing him, you know? He thinks he's just, he's got another guy that he's going to take 40 bucks off of or 80 bucks off of. You can't see the forest in the trees. I mean, it's kind of vital because... He literally can't see the forest through the trees.

Well, that is so true. But, like, it is kind of vital in a way to me because I am like, how does this economy work? Like, how can there be this many people who you can hustle enough to continue eating food? But Forrest Whitaker... And it's like, you know what? Sometimes this shit happens even to supposedly, like, wise guy. Force Whitaker also has an entirely different. style.

Yeah, totally. You get that he, he would be duped by him because he's not playing. I used to be, like, I was working at a medical school, like, participating in lab experiments.

Like, he seems like a complete freak. Yeah. He's got a totally different backstory. He's got a totally different demeanor. And part of it is that Forrest Whitaker is such a unique performer. You're like, I mean, is there anyone like Forrest Whitaker before or now?

Like, hey, can I ask you something? Do you think I should lose some weight? It's like, it's like, you're asking for pull him in that. But it's, right. And like, even in that moment, you're like, is this still some part of, like, some fucking mind game? Or is this just

him spiting him to be like, on top of it, I'm still going to pretend like I'm just sort of an idiot savant. Or is it like a genuine moment of vulnerability being like, hey, now that I've beaten you and I maybe have your respect, can you tell me, do you think losing weight would help my

hustle? Like, there's a reason. on it like that, but he's... Yeah, kind of like it's the jersey swap moment afterwards where he's like, you know, yeah, like, can I, hey, like, I know you're an expert or you're an old hand. Forest Whitaker is just kind of like a universal monster where you're like, this guy

who is so intimidating and scary and sad simultaneously. Just always feels so tragic and so vulnerable. And is a guy who feels like he's being explosive and loud even when he's like literally whispering. Is this platoon year? Yeah. 86 is Platoon.

So he does, he's in, he's in Platoon. Yeah, like, before this, his only credits are Fast Times, something called Tag the Assassination game, the Nick Castle movie, which I think he has a tiny part. And Vision Quest, the Matthew Modine movie. He's got a tiny part of that. We talked about this in the Fast Times episode, though. He gets a couple parts early on, and he's like,

I don't know enough about acting and basically pulls himself out of auditioning and is like, I need to study more seriously. And 86 is his reemergence year of, like, I think I, I can be at the table. And it gets to work with Martin Scorsese and Oliver Stone. It's not bad. I can hold my own against Paul Newman. Yeah.

This is the moment that, like, really kind of defines the rest of his career, right? The fact that he's able to fucking nail this scene. Yeah. Because the next year he's got Good Morning Vietnam, which is like a pretty big role. Like, that's pretty much the thing. Yeah. And then the year after that is Bird, which is just, I mean, it's, one of my favorite

Clint Eastwood movies, it's probably my favorite Farras Whitaker performance. And it's like, did that make him a star? No, because like, Forrest Whitaker, like you say, is so specific.

But it made him an enduring Hollywood figure. He's like a Giamati where you're like, this guy has a number of excellent vehicles under his belt and Forrest Whitaker, obviously won a leading acting Oscar,

even though that's kind of supporting performance. It kind of, yeah, but you know, whatever. But you're like, he's primarily a character actor who are a couple times the right project has met him exactly where he's at. And it's the kind of movie that could only be led by him.

He's also like ghost dog. Like, it's just like kind of like, like no one could have been fucking ghost dog. But I'm like like ghost dog, bird, last king of Scotland, the butler. Right. You're like, he has like a collection of movie star movies. And then, but then it's also like, is there a hostage situation in a movie? Guess what tired cop is picking up the phone right now. Or he's the guy who's being held hostage.

He played. Or he's that. He could be either. Please, please. He's a very effective psychic cop in a species. Oh, God, the fucking weirdest movie ever made. Where he walks into rooms, he's like, someone was hurt here. And there's like 14 gallons of blood on the floor.

We should do species on Patreon. Only so that we can hear Ben's sort of, if I were in this movie, it'd end with me owning an island. Yeah. If I were in. I would not make any mistakes. I'd have a bunch of good sex and still be alive. She would recognize that I was cool. I've not tear my spine out.

One and two. Uh-huh. I haven't seen three, but which I think was straight to TV or whatever. I think it was a, yeah. But some have told me is not bad. Is that still Henshridge? I think Hensstridge might just be doing a little came.

And it was directed by Lav Diaz, right? Who did this movie? Three was directed, of course. That was written by Schrader. By Brad Turner, a TV. Okay. A TV guy. Okay.

Hensstridge reprises the role Breed in the opening scene. It was a sci-fi channel original. Yes, but there's an uncut. Correct. There's like a sexier version of it that I have been told. I know this because...

You've heard that the sexy version's the good one. Is that what you're saying? No, I know that, you know, I did both species one and two on the authorized novelizations podcast. I picked Species 1 kind of because I was like, that's funny. There's a official novelization of that.

And then, of course, was hit with the news by Overbe of... And don't you, worry. There was a novelization of species too as well. Both written by a woman. Yeah. Hey? And so I watched one and two. There's a fourth one as well. There is.

Species the awakening. Stand-alone sequel, not a direct follow-up. Yeah. I'm sure fans are furious. I don't know. I do want to call out that Species 4 was briefly titled Species Colen Quatro. Was it really? Yeah, which I'm realizing I don't know if any franchise has done that.

Not yet. Right? No. The never made old school sequel was supposed to be called old school dose. Sure. Yeah. I just think the untapped potential here.

Let's do it. Yeah. I think that saying Natasha Hintstridge should be part of like a president's cognitive test. I noticed that you've only said Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio once. Mem.

In entirety. And it is one of the great I trip over the last name. Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio. What was the tennis? player in the 90s? Fuck. Mia?

Master's? No. Who are you talking about? Sanchez Vicario. Oh, yeah. Alexis Sanchez. Yeah. I just always was, I loved a name where it's like, this is a, no, it's, right, Aranta,

or I didn't know, I don't know how you say her first name, but, you know, I loved a meal of a name. Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio feels like a roller coaster. It's fun to say. You feel satisfied when you come into the land. Do you think her and Stuart Masterson were just in a death stare about who got the three names? Yeah. Now, Mary Stewart Masterson is the daughter, Peter Masterson, who was like a big actor, right?

Like, she was, you know, Hollywood royalty, whereas Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio's father operated a bronze foundry in Oak Park, Illinois. So she was, you know. How did she get Scarface? I don't know, man. She was on Broadway and Various. musicals, including as an understudy in the 1980 run of West Side Story. But that's like three years before Scarface.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, she rocks. She's got an interesting career in that she's made very few movies. She was in the original production of Amadeus. That sounds good. I'll check it out. That must have led to, yeah, it feels like she gets cast and Scarface off of that. Yeah, she's a very few movies. I wonder if

just like, like, Chino scenes are on Broadway or something like that. It has to be. Yeah, because she... Right. Obviously, that's a humongous show. and she's in the original cast. She's done a fair amount of theater, but it's just crazy that, like, it's like her movie credits are Scarface Color of Money,

slam dance, January Man, the Abyss. That's her whole 80s. She has made only three films this century, and one of them's a short film. She was in a film in 2015 called a Muck. She basically hasn't made a movie since the perfect storm. She basically hasn't made a movie since the perfect storm. She also, her husband,

directed the January, man, is that right? Yes. She's married to Patrick O'Connor who directed most of what she has made since the 90s. Right, who made the terrible film Stars and Bars, which I talked about on a big picture episode one. Yes. One of the least relevant

Daniel DeLuess movies ever made. Is it fair to say the least relevant? Probably. Is anything really competing with that? I don't think so. But yeah, no, it's like Robin Hood Prince of Thieves is kind of her final major movie star move. Yeah.

Uh, which she's good in that, I guess. She's good in that. I like that movie so much. You like that movie so much? I really do. I haven't seen that movie since I was like a kid. I think that movie's really fucking fun. I rewatched it when we were doing Cozner.

Rickman's so good. And then folded. That movie is also long. I was like, we should fold this. But they're also like two different versions now. Right, right, right. Oh, right. We should just like,

Costner ghost directed this. Let's just do it on like the Costner series. We were debating whether or not to do it and the Costner series was short, but then we did a Waterworld episode. So I was like, I should re-watch Prince of Thieves. A movie I similarly had, like, watched in pieces on cable and maybe never sat down

and watched from beginning to end. And I just, maybe it was the contrast between the two. There's a lot I like in Waterworld, but it's obviously so long and bloated. And Robin and Prince of Thees, I just thought was like so much fun from beginning to end. Got that Kino 4K pre-ordered. Oh, do you?

I, I think I have... Oh, fuck, you know, it's a row. The fuck am I talking about. It's so embarrassing. Tracy's going to fucking eat me for lunch. But like Tracy, I just feel like like pallets arrive at his house every day and they just get added to the pile, right? I have questions. I'm like, is he on the subscription list?

Is he on press lists? Is he just pre-ordering everything a la carte one by one? I don't know. The methodology for, he was very open about his AV man. he was very open on the big picture physical media episode about who he watches movies with but he was a little bit circumspect about like where does it all come from? Where does it all come from?

Which, you know, it's the real question of life. I mean, it's the essential question we all grapple with when he read off the AV man's text A, I could not believe how. Probably the peak of podcasting. Truly. Truly. Yeah. Truly, truly.

Truly. Beyond that, maybe the peak of human language. I was like, I could not believe how well written this text was. I think you called out, you were like, is this how he typed it out? Because it felt like the part Nanny Hall where he brings McLuhan out from behind the postings. Like, in fact, I have my AV man right here.

I was like, did you know that we were going to ask you this and had him pre-write it? It was insane how good it was and how thorough it was. And just if I were reading that out in text, I think it would give me goosebumps. Have Tracy be the one to give it a dramatic. He's a good reader. I mean, he can lend a lot of gravitas to something.

The highest grade in British Silicon married. To the excellence. And German engineering. From a rents. I mean, just doesn't kind of lock you into where you live? Yeah. You're like, fuck, I can't leave now. I don't think he's planning to.

No. No, I don't think we get tempted about it. He's building a castle. My question is, like, how do I become the next name? Yeah, exactly. Like, how do I move in there? Do we need a court jester? Like, what roles are still open in that household?

I think. Yeah, I don't know. What does Tracy eat? I could, I could have. Tracy very convincingly could have appeared in this film. Yeah. Especially as the guy who loses to Eddie and then is like, can I buy you a drink? And Eddie's like, let me buy you a drink. I don't know who that guy is. He's probably like an actual pool hall denzil that they found. I mean, like Kevin McCready is in this film who is a real life hustler. He's Brady Seasons or is he somebody else? He is Grady Seasons. He is a real hustler

who plays under the name, Earthquake. Who has an unusual, like, side form, which I think is part of his hustle. He's very poetic when he's moving around the table. Right. Like, he doesn't look like a sort of, like, traditional pool pro or whatever. It's worth mentioning, I guess, Iggy Pop. I was going to say, yeah, we got a car.

Fantastic Iggy Pop. As credited as skinny player on road. Yep. Who else? Do you guys wish there had been a couple of more, like, two brothers and a stranger style cons in halls? Because I also wanted to interrogate the fact that Newman's like, if you ever done two brothers in a stranger, and it's like, it involves me grabbing your girlfriend's ass? And I was like, where's the two brothers? Like, if we were doing two brothers, would we also be like grab assing or what?

I don't need them to explain them to me, but I do want to see multiple. types of hustles. Yeah, yeah. I love any kind of like you can put on stuff. Yes. You know, I also want to shout out Paul Herman,

who's, he's Beansy in the Sopranos. He's another of the pool. Oh, he's the guy at Atlantic City. He's just like, I'm going to give you $1,500 and you give me $800. I have to beat you eight times, but you have to beat me nine times.

Yes. Yeah. Love that guy. I was like, why don't you guys just play pool for money? A guy's a top flow. Yeah, right. Why doesn't it just be like, whoever wins wins the money?

Right. He feels easy enough. Right. He's an Irishman. Yeah, he's in a ton of, like, Hesterway recently. But I always think of him. He's the gun dealer from Pittsburgh

and Goodfellas. He's like, he was. He helicopters. He's also, he's, um, De Niro's main Eagles buddy in Silver Lining's playbook. Yes, he's in Silver Lining's, right? Yes. Which is sort of like a gangster movie of that gangsters.

And everyone in that movie is kind of a lot of life. Right? Yeah. That's, that's, that's one. I have not had the courage to rewatch that movie, and I really wonder how it would go down right now. Not even in all, like, is it problematic way? But just, like, were we all drunk?

What was the fucking thing? I didn't love that shit at the time. Yes. So, like, I don't know. Like, I was not... Like, my opinion of all that... I liked the fighter a lot. The fighters really...

I thought the fighter really nailed the whole kind of, like, dirtbag. Yeah. And after that, I just felt like, He was kind of losing it more and more with every movie. All three of those worked for me until Joy, where it fell apart so hard, and I have not rewatched any of them. That's the vacuum.

Yes. And in my mind's eye, I'm like, well, the fighter still is legitimately pretty great. Right. And then... Silver linings, it's like, the performances are good. It's kind of an over-a-rob movie.

American Hustle, which I loved at the time, I'm just like, I know I would hate that now. You know, I remember being so hype for American Hustle and midway through it. You wanted to get over on all these guys? You did want to get over. It's got to be the best we've ever done. Yeah. Gotta be the best we've ever done.

That movie, I mean, I hated at the time. I know. We fought about it. And I was like, it's fun. And now when I like replay scenes in my mind, I'm embarrassed. But the fighter, I wonder if it is actually the last good one or if we watched it now, we'd be like, I want to see the signs of where this is going. Probably a little bit.

It also was just more of a novelty. It was like, oh, the I heard Huckabee's guy made this like, you know, Lowell, Massachusetts. Yeah. But Oscar. bait thing. Yeah, right. And it's like, oh,

it's got some grit to it. It's a good movie. Adams is so good in that. Amy Adams? Yeah. Amazing in that one. Yes.

Yes. It's, I mean, well, this conversation's irrelevant because obviously he rebounded and hit his peak form in Amsterdam.

I mean, he figured the whole thing out. And now his upcoming Al Davis movie should be pretty solid. Christ. I fucking forgot. I forgot that was happening.

I'm a little excited for that thing. Well, I just, Bail's dedication to him is kind of impressive. Bail's dedication. Bail has like got to be one of the greatest homies ever to be like, whatever you want to do, man. I mean, it's my beef with it is that Bail's... Basically, like, Cole Road, Amsterdam?

Yeah. My beef with it is that Bail doesn't make a ton of movies. That's my beast. Wasted a lot of time making David O. Russell movies and where I'm like, you could have worked with some other guy. It is a stat I love to repeat, which is Christian Bale, one of our greatest living actors, in my opinion, one of the great screen actors.

It's great actors. And we think of as being such a dramatic, intense act. all of his Oscar nominations are either for Adam McKay or David O'Russle movies. Correct. They're his two guys now. It's, and, you know, it's tough. But, like, the idea of bail being like, I've studied Al Davis tape for two years. I'm going to occupy Al Davis in a way no one ever has.

And Kaye just like, get that wig on me. I think I can do Madden in five minutes. I saw Madden in 1983. Who is Al Davis? Al Davis was the, I mean, he was the owner of, Los Angeles and Oakland Raiders. Wasn't he also kind of the GM or whatever? Like, yeah, he was an old school

like, I'm king. Like I get, I'm the owner, I'm the GM. I also am the offensive coordinator. And everybody runs fast and the quarterback just win, baby. And we just win. His famous motto. But he was like a genuinely transformational figure in football who like

helped bring down collar barriers and like, right. He was like, he was a force for good by and large. But Ben, this is Madden. A David O. Russell film coming out. Coach was John Madden, who even at the time was a living cartoon character before he then literally became one. Nicholas Cage is playing him

basically in like the suit from the whale on loan. Yeah. Giving like what looks like a mad TV performance. And I love Cage, right? This movie is by all accounts primarily about the video game, about how he licensed his name and likeness

to the video. Everything I've heard is that like that is the main story. It's certainly a big part of the movie. And, like, John Mullaney is playing Tripp Hawkins, who's the, like, the guy from 3DO who, like, bitches him on the game. Are you kidding me? I thought this was like, this is how they won the 70s. It's primarily about the game. I think there will be some of that.

I have heard from reliable people. I believe there was a radio lab episode about how that game came into being. Right. It's an interesting story. And I have heard that is the primary text that this movie was based on. And yes, it has, right. John Mullaney playing the founder of electronic arts. Yeah.

Shane Gillis, Sienna Miller. Catherine Hahn. Just the most obvious cast in the world. It was going to be Will Ferrell. Will Ferrell was going to be mad. Right. Which makes a ton of sense. Makes a ton of sense.

It's just the thing with Cage is it's just like, you're handing him lit firecrackers. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, he's a good actor. But now we're just kind of back to post long legs of these directors being like, do you want to cut loose? And he's like, sure.

You know, I can do that. Doing like a long legs prequel or long legs is immortal. Yeah. It's fast. I love long legs. I love long legs. I was, I was into long legs. I don't know if you want to go back to that well.

That announcement struck terror in my heart. Yeah. I don't think there's any need to return to that. Are you a long leg fan? I was what I saw. It was somewhat impacted by the fact that I watched it. And the second I came out, Trump got shot in Pennsylvania. And I was just like, holy shit.

And I immediately forgot all of long legs. You know? Long legs just gets like photocopied over in your way. Or I was like, this will be the most memorable movie I've ever seen because... It's the day the Trump got shot. But instead, it was like, neither were. I was at a wedding. My dear friends, Pat May and Ashley Warren, two of the best people I know.

Padme? Pat May. Patrick May. My dear friends, Padmay and Anakin. My dear friends, Padmae, and Anakin. No secret wedding. All the best. A robot arm.

He recently lost a doubt to have Duke. I blessed their love. Nothing bad will happen. But I was after a wedding. Weird speeches. Don't worry about it. was that really is a beef with sand was at their wedding

a lot about taxes this one someone ran up and just in like one burst went like Trump was shot there was a shooter at the White House

correspondent's dinner but Trump is safe oh the more recent you cannot give me that don't do that that much information that quick in one sentence I understand

wanting to get all the information out of one thing emotional roller coaster yeah yeah so the color of mind We left off kind of where Eddie, Carmen, and Vincent part ways.

Yes. Right. Eddie gets hustled. It shatters his image. I feel like. And he basically half fires them. Yeah. Half.

Yeah. It's like a soft dumping. Yes. Right. Right. You actually don't need me anymore. I'm doing you a favor. But it's like, don't look at me.

I'm disgusting. You have the money. Go to Atlantic City. But right. That's exactly. I feel like he's all confidence and now it's gone. And the other part of it is him being. like I fucked up.

I need to pull the eject lever like as quickly as I can. I need to get out of here. This thing has gotten its hooks into me more deeply than I thought. And then this movie turns into a sort of an advertisement for optometry

because it turns out that a lot of his problems were just that he needed a prescription glass. He needed to get the coolest prescription sunglasses in the world. Yeah. Fucking cool. He looks cool getting his eyes. He really does. He makes it all work for him.

It is like a Thanos getting a power glove where he's like, you don't understand. I can read the newspaper now. I wonder like how long he's been like I have no idea who's president. I haven't seen an actual pool ball in clarity in 10 years.

Do you think Fast Eddie votes? I feel like he probably doesn't vote too much. No. I don't know how many things he does. What it feels like he lives a very confusing. just like I was all in on Stevenson. And when that didn't happen, I checked out on the political process. Honest liberalism.

Yeah. And then he kind of, it's just a bit of a wander. It's a bit of a wander. There's a really good montage, like you mentioned. It's a great montage of him getting his game back. But it is, I feel like actually without Cruz, like the energy's gone a little bit.

Well, this is where it should be a sports movie and the sport movie should end with Game 7 of the World Series or like the game that they... And Newman has in other... Like, this is not unlike Slopshot, where the movie's culmination is, I'm going to take all my clothes off and skate around in circles, you know, like rather than we beat these guys. And Color of Money is sort of like, well, there's the tournament,

there's Fast Eddie's kind of re-resorted, you know, because he beats, no, Tom Cruise beats Grady. Fast Eddie gets to the semifinals against Vince or the finals against Vince. And the crane shots of the pool, the stadium. I was going to say pool hall, but this like stadium with like fucking 40 tables and then cringing down to

from behind Fast Eddie's head just looking at like his Valhalla. Yeah. And then all the like the behind the scenes stills, the production stills of this movie where it's like a track that goes around like goddamn Big Thunder Mountain. And then there will be like, you know, the pool tables are all up

against one side and then everything else is Dolly track. I was recently in Atlantic City. for what? My birthday. You went to Atlantic City for your birthday? Yeah, baby. I don't think you were relaying this to us.

No, he told me. Really? Yeah. Where's this gambling text? Orga. Ocean. Okay. Borgata was fully booked.

Interesting. Jerry Seinfeld was playing. Oh, oh boy. So went to the ocean. Gotta recommend the ocean. Really nice time. I mean, Atlantic City, however. Not in the best shape.

David is making two thumbs up, smile. Everything's good. Haven't been to Atlantic City. and Sean's Fantasy's Bachelor Party. And tell me everything about Sean Fantasy's Bachelor Party. That was where I discovered gasoline, which is

tequila and Red Bull. And we got one of Sean's family members to get bottle service at a nightclub. Now, I've only met Sean's family once, which was at the live show we did. It is crazy when they all show up and you're like, why does Sean not have a thick longout? You know what I mean? Like, right? Do you remember this, Griffin? from the...

Yes, sorry, my grandmother's sending very insane emails right now. Classic Griffin situation. Yeah. Anyway, like, it's just funny that this movie's like, we're going to make it to Atlantic City. Having been to Atlantic City, I'm like, you don't want to make it there. You need to leave Atlantic City.

Like, you can spend a night, maybe too. But I guess it was, it's like... Atlantic City, I think, was ruined by like plane travel basically, right? And like Indian casinos. Yeah. Where it's basically... It just became... It's like, well, why would you want to go there?

You can go somewhere else. Well, it's the same. And now Vegas is being decimated by the fact that you don't have to go there to bet on sports, among other things. Yeah. Yeah.

So what's going to happen to these places? I mean, I guess what's happening to Atlantic City might happen to other places. Possibly. Is good old-fashioned American gambling about to collapse? Like, are these prediction markets just like, to your point, I just hadn't considered this,

but like, do people even bother to learn how to play poker? Not to be, to be waxing poet in their hands and like to study it in their hands and, like, to study. another man and be like, okay. But this is sort of what this movie is about, of like needing to basically like

elevate these things to an arc form and a psychological sort of exploration, you know, a game of people reading and everything. And just as much of that, I think it's like, I know this is going to sound really corny, but it is a celebration of a certain kind of American third space that is disappearing. Yes.

Chris, 100%. And it is like... We're talking about physical media video stores. It's another one, you know. And I don't think in 20 or 30 years people are going to care that this is what American bars looked like in 1986. Right. And you're just like, okay, so now you're like sitting. But I care.

You're sitting at home doing an IG live, like betting $50 that Lady Gaga's going to fart at the grannie. It's like, what are we now? Right. Griff, that back got me $4,000. I know. I paid for my friend. Congrats to you and your family. Yeah, right.

Yes, let's get rid of phone gambling and have more real gambling. That's my take. Yeah. Right. No more phone. Right. Phone gambling bad. Really bad.

Real gambling. Let me out. David loves it. Do you actually, are you a fan? Yes. Yeah. But it's very good that I don't get to do it much. Yeah, I only at the casino, I really only play blackjack and it's just over really fast.

I'm not to brag. I had an incredible night. I made like 600 bucks. Wait a go, man. I'm going to say something. on Mike that I really, just knowing we, you know, record this podcast a bit in advance, I hope these are not famous last words. I am so relieved that my father has not gotten into the prediction markets.

Oh, boy. My father, a former gambling addict who has stayed on the good side of that for decades. I was about to say, right. It's a long time. It's in the rear view, his gambling days. And like growing up, we would go to a fucking, you know, a Super Bowl party or an Oscar party where you could like fill out a form. and I didn't see it break him.

He didn't start sweating and going like, oh, fuck, I'm remembering. But I just feel like the low bar for entry on the phone shit. Beyond just the prediction market, even just how easy sports betting is. Frictionless gambling. Which sports betting was this whole fucking thing. Yeah. That's right.

The other thing is like, I love gambling. I don't care about sports gambling. It never does much for me. I love like the absolute Coke rush of, I put chips on numbers and maybe I won. Yes. Like, I'm just like, what? You know, like, I just, it does something for me that drinking, I don't know, one of the other, you know, drugs, these things have never done.

You know, Ben, you've seen me. I have. Yeah. You just get very serious. You really go into a different mode. Yeah. We should have someone on who, it was, I basically was like, it was, because my wife was like, just do your bachelor party. I turned 40.

Yeah. She was like, just do your bachelor party. Like, you were going to do your friends, Alex and Eric, like, just fucking go go gamble for a night. Like, you never got to do your bachelor party. incredible pod things I've ever, podcasting moments have ever witnessed in person was when we would go to Caesars in Vegas for NBA Summer League, which is where the NBA teams go and let their newly drafted players play in like exhibition tournament basically. It's also just an opportunity for everybody to gamble. So I watched. But you're all chatting to sources and all that shit.

Bill Simmons, his longtime podcast co-host on Sunday nights, cousin Sal. A great cousin Sal. Super Chef Dave Chang. and Bill Simmons buddy Joe House. The great Joe House. On the back end, like the fumes of what was like basically an all-night gambling run, all-night blackjack run,

where House and Chang had only left the blackjack table to go get off-strip gumbo in Vegas. And then came back at like... Is that strip gumbo? It's not... 10 or 11 a.m. to do like a long, long podcast about the layers of gambling that they participated in last night that involved like Chang winning, a bone white chip

that needed like his social security number to cash out. Bone white. And they're all betting. An alabaster. Not only on their cards. Made of bone. But they're betting on other guys

at the table where they're like, I'm doing like layered bets on. I'm essentially staking this guy's next thing. Even though he's not asking. Right, right, right. Right. But he's hot. Yeah.

So, yes. I like when you can do that in craps. Like I like when you start making bets for the, you know, the, the, the, the group ears, pit bosses, whatever, you know, like, that's fun. No, I play every, Blackjack Crap's Relat. Like, those are, yeah.

You like it fast. You do not, like, long poker nights. No, I enjoy poker, but right. You're impatient. Is that fair to say? I guess so. I think I also have a good metronome. That's at least what everyone was, who was watching me, that night was saying, of, like,

I'm pretty good at being like, I think I'm done. And, like, you know, like, you're an incredible flake. Yeah. That's such an incredible flake. Yeah, I'm the flaky one. All right, let's close out. Yes. Talking about the plot.

I'm a really rude thing to throw it Ben backhanded. I'm not a job. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. How dare you imply that Ben is flaky and later records and fills the office with too many toys? I just think this is rude. No one fills the office with too many toys.

Ben, by the way, has built a star destroyer size cabinet behind him. Sound insulation. Wait, is that part of the argument of my Griffin's new argument for bringing a bunch of like random crap. Oh, the offices that is helping to instantly. I need to once again remind you, we have very few funco pops in this office. I know. I know.

I love saying funco pops because I know it gets your goat. You know. I just think they're low quality. Sure, sure. In every sense. I've never owned one. The plastic tolerance is terrible. The designs are uninspired.

Right, right. They kind of pump those out. But it's all made a funcopop of you. You would want it. Well, maybe that's why I dislike them. because it feels sometimes like they have notably made an effort to not make one of me.

I feel like we could get some podcast or Funko Pops made. Really? I don't, because I mean... No. You're forgetting that the peak of the tick I was on like fucking phone calls

with like Sony like licensing department. Where's the pop? And they were making bullshit excuses to me. All right. Okay. We got to wrap this up. So the end of this movie is... It's interesting because like it's what you were saying

about Slapshot. It's like there is the triumph is is fake. Yeah, Eddie beats Vince. But Vince was basically throwing it because he was laying bets against himself. Comes to the hotel room afterwards. It's like, here's your cut.

Like, I dumped that game. Like, but I'm going to win a bunch of money later. Eddie forfeits the game, like the next game. Right. Because it just fucks with this confidence again. Like, and gives Vince to the money back and is like, you know, let's do, it's like Rocky versus Apollo Creed in private. Like, let's just face it.

off for real. It's beautiful. I'm back. It's the best. Yeah. I mean, like, everyone's walking out happy, right? I think everybody's walking out happy, but I think a lot of people are walking out being like, what just happened? Sure. You think, like, maybe the movie needs the triumph and final game or something? Or I think that it's part of

it becoming a little bit of a solo album in the back half of the movie and less about, like, his rel-like, there's so much potential in his relationships to Vince and Carmen and even with Janelle and even with these other background characters, that you're, I think, in another kind of movie,

you'd probably want, if not resolution, like development or deepening with that. I think you're right that it is an excellent ending taken on its own, but it undercuts the movie a little bit in that it does start to make you feel like all of that was just a distraction. And it's not like I only want this to be a mentor-mentee movie, but it does sort of deflate that having been so much of the engine up until that point. Yeah, and it's where...

you can watch this and you kind of walk out of it and you have maybe like a thousand different interpretations of what it means. But because it is a little bit of like, I can do this with a look or I can do this with two words, there isn't like a feeling of, and then Eddie Philson went on to win 10 championships or like became the most respected liquor salesman

on the eastern seaboard, you know? There is no, there is, there is a kind of, it's a vibe, not a resolution. Yeah, and in a way I'm receiving. I like that the ending is a little bit haunted and that it's like, is it good that this guy's playing pool again? Where does this

go? It feels about as good as it's going to get for him. Yeah, and the original title for this movie was as good as it gets. That's good it gets for him. I mean, like, look, when you compare the ending of this movie to the hustler, you're like, hey, this is a bouncy ending. This is great.

But the ending of the hustler is the absolute it is them making good on the promise of the setup. Right? The entire movie is this existential journey of this guy trying to figure himself out. And he doesn't like the answer he finds, but the movie is an answer to the question that it poses.

Well, it's also like there's this a weird, like, it's not a one last job movie. It's a I'm getting back into bank robbing movie. And none of the people in this movie are saying, what I'd love to do is get the hell out of pool halls. they're all like, I have found my preferred environment. That's why I like it. It's not a hectoring movie about like, this is a bad life.

I'm like, I know it's a bad life. I don't care. I mean, your parlance, David, this is an imperfect movie, but it is like drugs. It is unbelievable to watch. Yes. Yeah. I think that's Marty. Like, I think a different filmmaker would insert a more moral slant to it or

insist on a more maybe like conventional arc to it or something like that. I think that that's a nice, like, button at the end for Newman. I mean, it's, like, such an easy, like, and give this guy the Oscar moment. But the last 30 minutes of the movie is if the first hour of it feels like Coke, it's the last 30 minutes are kind of a come down. And the last 30 minutes are a little jittery and you don't know who to trust and you don't know if life's going to work out. And it's kind of, it's kind of like a, it's more of a feeling than it is like a statement. But I like the feeling a lot. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.

Now here's... You're coming down and the screenplay for Scum Apprentice doesn't feel like it's necessarily going in the right direction. Yeah.

Yeah. Here's the question for you guys to run through this exercise. This is kind of one of the most famous Gold Watch Oscar wins, right? They give it to him

the year after they give him the Lifetime Achievement Award. He doesn't show up to the ceremony. There's a lot of sliding doors of like, obviously they should have given it to him for the verdict.

When they don't do that, it feels like they give him the lifetime because they know they kind of fucked up, even though Gandhi was undeniable. And then this feels like it served to them on a platter. It is fascinating to look at the fact that I think he won the National Board of Review for Best Actor

and zero other precursors. He doesn't win the Golden Globe this year. Obviously, there were less things in 86. Huh. Who won the Golden Globe? I believe it was... Did Hoskins win? I think he did. I think Hoskins really kind of ran the table. Yeah, because Hoskins is...

is certainly right, the critical favorite that year for Mona Lisa. Yeah, he won the Golden Globe. That's what's fascinating is he always talked about like, I love... Now, had Newman maybe like already won Golden Globes, I can look that up. Like, you know, it's possible the Globes didn't care. But it does, when you look at

it, feel like it must have been a little surprising on Oscar night. Right. Because the momentum was not clearly behind him, even though he's Hollywood royalty and this thing was a hit. I know, I would need to read more about it of like, what was the press drumbeat at that point of kind of like, guys, Newman's up again. You're not going to fucking do

this again, are you? But also, he showed up to the ceremony for the lifetime achievement year when that was still part of the main broadcast. And I think there was a fulfillment moment there. Even if it's like, this is embarrassing that we've never given this guy a competitive. Totally. Huskins and Mona Lisa is the better performance, right? Taking on its own. It's an incredibly good performance. So sure. But I do love this performance. I do too. Who beats him the nobody's fool year? Oh, that's a good question.

This is my question. So, like, imagine we wait that long. Yeah. Because it's also less embarrassing that it's... But then it becomes dire. If you're waiting until nobody's fool, you're like, it doesn't matter if Daniel DeLewis. Tom Hanks beat him for Fars.

But that's his second... I don't think, but there's a reason Tom Hanks won. No universe in which he wasn't going to win. I mean, like, I think that would have aged... Good at Nobody's Fool, but that's not a movie where you're like, well, that's one of Newman's best either. I mean, he's good. I love that performance. Yeah. He's good.

Yeah. I mean, like, he's incredible in Road to Perdition, which is his last nom. And that's Chris Cooper beating him? Sure. But that would have been the true gold watch of, like, you old guy, like, you know, you did 15 great minutes in a supporting role. Like, here's your Oscar. I mean, like, I don't know.

I mean, like, he should have won earlier. Like I said, he lost, like, you know, he loses for the hustler to, Maximilian Schell for judgment at Nuremberg. It's a pretty good movie and Shell's amazing in it. Obviously, Paul Newman back then is young. Like, his first nom is for Canada Hot Tin Roof.

He loses to David Niven for separate tables. I'm not going to litigate that right now. Like, I don't know. Like, I'd be like... Not right now. I can't do that. We're at three hours. I also think his brick is interesting, but maybe not entirely successful.

Is that a wild take? That movie stinks. Yeah. That movie is like a neutered, you know, version of the movie. I mean, he's good. Of the play. Yeah. And then, like, yeah, he loses to Poitier, loses to Steiger.

Those are pretty, you know, and then he loses for absence of malice the year, like a few years before this, to Henry Fonda for on Golden Pond. But like... Was he not nominated for Luke? I know. He's nominated for Luke.

He loses to... Stiger. That's the Stiger loss. Okay. Was he nominated for HUD or no? Nominated for HUD lost to Sidney Poitier. And he's not nominated for... Butch Cassidy or Sting.

Redford gets the Sting nomination. Redford gets the Sting nomination. Redford's only acting nom, which is wild. And like, you know, I mean, obviously Newman's great in those movies, but they're not demanding in the same, I don't know, whatever. They're not Oscar-y performances, I guess.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, he's one of the best, so he should have an Oscar. He got an Oscar for a good movie. It's funny that then Scorsese wins an Oscar for The Departed. And also, that has a lot of, as the gold watch sort of asterisk put on it, even though the departed's incredible.

And it kind of kicks off like a whole new late period for him. Right. But like that that is a narrative around Scorsese a lot. I mean, and like doesn't he direct Ellen burst into a win right after the Exorcist? Yeah. Right? Which is another one where it's kind of like,

damn, does she rock? Like, did we fuck up not giving it to her for the... I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. What are you looking? I feel like you're trying to find something. No, no.

I was just like, I said the Redford thing and I was like, did I just say something that's false? But it's true. It is insane that Redford's only acting nomination is for The Sting. When you consider that, like, out of Africa, one best picture, and they didn't even nominate him, that, like, neither of them got nominated for a few good men. Or not few good men. All the president's men. Did he get nominated for candidate?

No. It is the Sting. Best actor in a leading role. That is it. His first nomination is 1974 for the Sting. And then it's two best director nominations. Best Picture nomination for Quiz Show and honorary award in 2000.

Okay, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, he didn't attend, so there's no speech. So, yeah, I have no, like, right? There's no big... I forget, was he filming something, or did he just...

Probably. Was he like, I went last year. I don't need to go again. Yeah. And he's, you know, continues to make good movies. Robert Wise, right, Robert Wise except on his behalf. And then, I think it's like

Betty Davis is also on the stage. This was Marie was sending us the clip yesterday where you said like, God, we really did used to let people just be so fucking old. Robert Wise looks ancient. But I looked it up and Betty Davis was 79 in that clip. And then I texted everyone a photo of Susan

Sarandon today. And they're the same age. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like old people used to be very different. Bruce as old now as Newman was when he did color of money. It has to be older, right? Yeah.

Wow, the Oscars have transcripts of every speech. Robert Wise saying, like, Paul wanted everyone to know that after coming here for seven other occasions like this, and then Betty Davis goes, Robert, for two minutes, let me say something about you, then starts talking about Robert Wise's career. And she's like, Robert Wise is the winner

of two Oscars himself for the Sound of Music and Westside Story. and Robert Wise goes, thank you. And she says, that's right. And the speech is over. They do not mention Paul Newman again. Would they play people off? I mean, yeah, they would.

And I think also they think the producer's probably like, this is not going to go in a good direction. Tom Cruise is, in fact, older today than Paul Newman was when they filmed the color of money by like a year or two. Pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, it's one of my favorite moments in television history is when they had Mickey Rooney present best supporting actors

at the SAG Awards, and he got up there and treated it as if he was receiving a lifetime achievement award. He, like, made his seventh wife stand up in the crowd and made everyone applaud her. He, like, went through, like, it's a 15 minute. And the nominees are... Judy Denshin Chocolat. Let's play the box office game. Yeah.

October 17, 1986. This movie's opening number two. Okay. $6.3 million. It makes 52 domestic. which is pretty good. Scraezy doesn't have a movie hit 100 million domestic until the aviator.

But this is certainly the most straightforward conventional hit he has had since taxi driver. It gets four Oscar Noms, supporting actress from Mary Elizabeth Mason Tertrani, who is very good. She loses to Diane Weiss for Hannah and her sisters. That's a pretty deserving win. Great win.

Adapted screenplay, art direction, which is kind of a cool nom because it's such a trashy thing. And I also fully agree with. Like, yeah, there's just like, they get like the tile floors rate. Like, it's perfect. It gets pretty good reviews. Ebert was kind of soft on it. He gave it two and a half stars.

I mean, I think a lot of people were basically like, you know, Marty, you can do better. You know, like a little giant. I was interesting, going back and reading how tepid people were. I was kind of like, do you guys know what you just got all over it? But Pauline Kale was, it's bestured by the lady. I mean, it feels very akin to the untouchables to me where you read those reviews and you're like, It's more summer popcorn fluff.

And I'm like, this thing is directed by Brian De Palma. It has costumes by like Armani. It has a Morricone score. I recently found out. We didn't know how fucking good we had it. I recently found out that my dad, I don't know, I don't think it was when it was released.

I think it was in a video guide. And this is an opinion that he never shared with me or I blocked out. It's like, Godfather 2, cash grab. This is the thing. I'm like, even even something like untouching. which I'm not arguing is one of the great American movies. You're like, if this is what popcorn movies were, we'd be living in a perpetual golden age.

No one could complain about anything. We would not be gambling on sports on our phones. Right. I would guess that part of the energy of the reviews at the time were, is this now the turning point in Scorsese's career? Does Scorsese become just a studio system, hired gone? Is he movie stars just want him to lend a little credibility to this? their passion projects.

And so once he follows this up with like two of his most personal movies and two of his purest artistic statements, it does feel like almost immediately the retrospective view of this film gets better. I love this part about his career is that talking about it in the moment of when, like, looking at it in the moment of when it happened versus as part of a series of films about decaying masculinity, it just completely changes the sort of circumstances. or the context in which you view it. Well, and also to invoke this, like, one conversation I had with him on set where he was around all of the time.

But there was a moment where I responded to a thing he said. And he clearly was like, you know Ball, you know movies. And his assistant was like, Marty, I think we have like 40 minutes before the next shot if you want to go back. And he's like, no, no, I want to talk to this kid. And then just talk to me for 20 minutes was one of the greatest experiences of my entire life. It was unbelievable. But what was fascinating about it was. was he was just sort of talking about this of like the narratives around me were this and this is how I felt.

You know, like I was being discussed in this way and everyone was sort of like pocket watching my career moves. And like I was a guy struggling. And he even called out like, you know, amongst the movie brats. I never had the seismic hit early on that all of those guys had that minted them forever. Lucas had American graffiti or whatever. He was like, I'm doing color of money, I'm doing Cape Fear, and these guys are like Marty's selling out. And it's like, right, I didn't even have Kerry, you know? I didn't have Godfather.

Like, not only did I not have an Oscar win, but I didn't have a straight down the middle blockbuster that made me a safe bet for studios where I can always default back to what if I gave you another one of those. And it was fascinating to be like, this guy really doesn't seem to still, I mean, I say to this day, this was 10 years. years ago, view himself as, obviously, I'm minted and I'm undeniable. And you especially think about him in the 80s when it was this weird battle between people being like, obviously, Martin Scorsese is the greatest filmmaker alive. And also, he kind of can't catch a break. And we give him a hard time every time. Well, I think even with some of the more recent efforts where it's like, yeah, he did, like, he got to make Irishman and Flower Moon, but had to do them for tech companies. And, had to like, you know, like, there wasn't, there hasn't always been just like a

Nolan in a studio and they're just like whatever you need, brother. No, and even his last couple of movies have all been like 10 nominations, zero wins. Yes. And three and a half hours and people are like, I loved it, but it's like, did you finish it? Like, yeah. I mean, we did, but like, yeah. He's the best. Number one of the box office, Griffin, is a film we've covered, one of the biggest hits of

1986. We covered it on our Patreon. We covered on our Patreon. on. It's one of the biggest hits of 1986. I'd love to know what Chris thinks of it. It's comedy. Oh. Oh, it's Crocodile Dundee.

Right. The first one. The first. Okay. I literally may not have seen this since 1987. Yeah. Did you like it then? I did.

It kind of rolls. Got a big knife. Yeah. Number two is Color Money. Number three is a film we will cover one day if we cover this director. I think it's her directorial debut. Is it a spurious? No.

It's not a Penny Marshall. It is. It's Jumping Jack Flash. Jumping Jack Flash. We will, let's say, we will cover this movie. We'll do Penny Marshalls. Barring catastrophe. Have you seen Wuffy Goldberg Jumpin' Jack Flash?

Packer. Don't think I saw Jumping Jack Flash. I saw Eddie. But jumping Jack Flash, good. That's a sports movie. That's a tough. Jumping Jack Flash, very strange film. You haven't seen, right?

Haven't seen. Very odd. Yeah. Excite to watch, I'm. Sure. Jonathan Price. Big Jonathan Price part. Right.

That was the whole thing where they got him to do a screening at Metrograph. Yes. He was coming to do a screening for, listen up Philip with ARP. And then they were like, we're fucking showing jumping Jack Flash. Perlin was like, swim by. Let me get a print and put it on the other screen and make him do an intro for that one as well on the same time. And he's like, I guess I'm in this.

I don't remember. Number four is a film from a great oter who's, you just invoked one of his movies. Your dad thought his movie was a cash grab. This is a later effort from him. Is this Tucker? No. Tucker, correct director. Is this Peggy Sue?

Like, Sue got married. A movie I like a lot. Not a bad movie. I used to bump on and it's really kind of warmed. It's weird. Did Tucker ever sniff top 10 box office? I don't think. Tucker was such a bomb.

That's a good movie. But that's also a movie where it bombing only helps its legacy. Like it feels like in the text of the movie that the movie itself also can't work. Now, number five is a film I don't know. It's an old guy comedy. Like I've heard of it, but like I've never seen it. It's not a lemon math out. No.

Is it like, it's an old guy, is it a team returning? No, it's just two really famous old actors. I mean, they've made movies together, I guess. But. Is it Hume Cronin? No. It's a really great actors. These are big famous Hollywood actors.

They're old now. Old as fuck. Hmm. Well, I guess they're still making. What's the milieu? What are these old guys doing? They're being gangsters. They got hats on and they got guns.

Wise guys? Yeah. It's called. tough guys. And it's Kirk Douglas and the other one is Bert Lancaster? Yes. Okay. And I guess like they were like they made a lot of westerns together and then they made like

seven days in May. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know if audiences in the 80s were like, Kirk and Bert back together? Yeah. Who directed that? Let's find out. Have you seen Jeff Kano? It's Jeff Kanoo. Yeah. Wow. What a whole. That is crazy. The director of Revenge of the Nerds. That's why I was just like

it was a weird kind of like, does he want to level up? Did Kirk Douglas go to canoe and just say, I love what you did with the nerds. I love Booger. I love what they stole those pants. Ogre, really? What a villain. Hey, RIP Ogar. He just passed away. One of the grades. Yeah. Number six is Children of Her Lesser God, a film I watched recently because I'm trying to watch 86 movies. That is kind of, I mean, like, it's kind of what you think it is. But Marley Mallon is pretty darn great. Yeah. Number seven, Top Gun. So Cruz has got

two, two movies up here. Number eight is a deadly friend, the insane West Graven movie. Oh, sure. Where someone throws a basketball through a woman's whole head. That's right. It's like a movie where he like, he kind of made like a paranoid, like kind of like romantic, you know, team. And they were like, why do no basketballs get thrown through anyone's heads in this movie? And he was like, what?

And they were like, don't worry, we're filming some pickups. Yeah. Not a great movie. Number nine is Stand By Me. Mm-hmm. A film I've never loved, but obviously they're a classic. I don't know if you care. I'm too young for it maybe.

Like it was not... Yeah, perfect time for me. It was like 9-10 minutes. I've seen it like one of my movies. But I think it totally works. Like kind of undeniably. Yeah. And the number 10 is, uh,

That's life. What's that again? That's life. That, no Brooks? No. No, Blake Edwards. Blake Edwards. So, yeah, yeah.

It's Jack Lemon and Julie Andrews made independently by Edwards using his own money. Uh, I don't know much about it. Have you guys ever done blank check Blake Edwards? So we had him on a bracket once. And we discouraged listeners from voting for him. He's made like 35 movies.

And the last 15 are rough. Yeah. We basically, we had one year the great, I had the conceptual idea. What if we did a March Madness bracket where one side is all Oscar winners for best director and one side is all Razzie winners for worst director? Uh-huh. Because you got like Costner in there, prints. There's weird Razzie winners. There were interesting people in there.

But to fill it out, we had Blake Edwards. Truly, we could not fill out the bracket unless Blake Edwards was in there. So we basically message to people. By technicality, we had to put him in here. Don't vote for him. Don't break the game by making us. It will end the show. Yeah, we'll reject this.

Yeah, for a movie called Sunset, the Bruce Willis James Garner movie, is what he won his Razzie for. Like, it's just insane that Blake Edwards directed fully three Pinkxie. Panther movies after Sellers died. People forget that he took three stabs at that. That's like species quattro. Right. You're like Pink Panther. His last movie was

Son of the Pink Panther, which was the Benini one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then there's like... There's the Clipchow ones where they're like Cluoso, he's around the corner. There's a Clip show one, and then there's a Ted Woss one. Like Ted Wasp from soap was revealed to also be a son of Cluzo at the end,

I think. Is that curse, I think? Yeah. And Trail is the clip show one. Trail is like, he's, here's somewhere, and they open a door and they show you outtakes from one of the earlier movies. You know, people used to suck down anything back then. It's like, repressed by the eye, but like, that's

totally fine. Yeah, that shit was great. So dead. I mean, like, it's true, like, we're like, God, shit used to be so much better. We used to make TV and then you, like, would watch TV shows where they're like, ah, I'm having memories of my, and they would just do a clip show. Like, there's the Star Trek where Riker has, like,

memory syndrome. Right. And like it's just like they're cutting to like, we have to operate on him and then he just remembers a mission they did. Also like Bruce Lee died and they would just like pick some guy and be like, your name is now Bruce Lee too. Yeah. We've taken too much of Chris. We have. Chris, thank you for this.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for ever. I'm so excited that I got to do this with you guys in person. Such a pleasure. Open range. It felt like we were. A great movie. But we're like I was reaching across the void on Zoom. So I'm really glad to have done it in person. It's just not the same. Hopefully we can all.

We drafted together last year on stage. Hopefully we'll draft together on the big picture again sometime. The watch. The watch people should listen to The Watch. Yeah. Anything else you want to plug? No.

I think the watch, the big picture, the rewatchables, I make appearances on wait a second where I discuss the news. Is that Jason's show? Yeah. Yeah. enjoying that. And we can't get Jason on again.

Yeah, we sure. Been too long. Yeah. He left the basketball text thread I'm in in Fury because because of God had too many business fans. Did it really? I thought you left that thread

or did you just mute it? I take breaks from it. I take mental health breaks from it. There's too many people in it. But Jason, you know, he was just like, too many fucking pistons fans. Yeah. We were not even playing the pistons yet. Yeah.

But thank you, CR. Thank you for having me. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate review and subscribe. Next week is the Last Temptation of Christ. Assuming new releases don't move into those slots. Yes. Correct.

Yes. guest, Jamel Bowie. Also, we should mention today over on our Patreon, releasing an episode where we're pairing New York Stories and Amazing Stories. Oh, so yeah, as teed up in this. Yes. The stories bud. Yes.

Are you guys going to do bad? We're definitely going to do a music video. Yes. There's so much kind of incillary, of course, these stuff that's actually worth talking about, that we're still strategizing how to do it. But I think, yes. But we have a special guest that maybe,

Maybe we shouldn't announce because it isn't locked in. Yeah. Pretty exciting. Yeah. And if it is locked in, then we'll drop the name in here. Barack Obama. Perfect. Wow.

Can't believe that worked out. So yeah, tune in next week for that. And as always, I feel like I didn't hit it. Oh, ah, ooh. Guys, that was awesome. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley.

Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our associate producer is A.J. McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by A.J. McKin and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick.

Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank CheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.