Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Dark Knight

Episode Date: July 30, 2017

Griffin and David this week discuss the second film in Nolan’s Batman Trilogy, The Dark Knight. How was Michael Mann’s Heat an influence on this movie? What does Commissioner Gordon mean by “playing it close to the vest?” Also, why so serious? Together they examine the electrifying performance of Heath Ledger, Nolan’s love for temporalities, Maggie Gyllenhaal as Rachel Dawes and why the Academy Award for Best Picture category changes after this movie comes out.

What gives you the right? What's the difference between you and me? I'm not podcasting! I mean, that is my favorite line in the whole fucking movie. Hi, everybody. My name's Griffin Newman. I'm not wearing hockey pads. I'm not podcast pants.

I'm not wearing podcast pads. My name's Griffin Newman. David Sims here. This is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. We're hashtag the two friends. Yes. We're not wearing hockey pads. Neither of us are wearing hockey pants. I can confirm that. Pads. It's

pads. Pants. No, he says pads. Pants. That doesn't make any sense. His thing is hockey pants. Oh, you're right. It's pads. Why would they be pants? They just wear regular pants. No, they don't. If you saw a person walking down the street

wearing hockey pants, you wouldn't go, normal pants. I don't know. People wear a lot of crazy things. What is this, Casual Friday? Wearing hockey pants? What if, yeah, what if they were at a hockey arena? I always thought it was hockey pants. I know.

I think a lot of people do, but you know why? Why? Delivered a little low. True. You know? Yeah. No, what did you think I was going to say? You were going to call me stupid.

No, what? Of course not. No, no, no. I'm insecure, David. No, the way he says it. I'm not wearing hockey pants. I'm not wearing hockey pants. I am not wearing hockey pants.

People are loving this so far. Great. People love this podcast. It's called Blank Check with Griffin and David. Yep. It is about filmographies. Directors who have had massive success earlier in their career and have given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy films they want.

And sometimes those checks clear. Sure. Sometimes they bounce, baby. Yes. It's an amazing series about the films of Christopher Nolan. Yes. It's called The Pod Night baby. Yes. There's a main series about the films of Christopher Nolan. Yes. It's called The Pod Nightcast. Yes.

And today we're talking about his most famous film, his most successful film. For sure. And one could argue the biggest movie of the 21st century. That's what we were discussing. I think, yeah, in terms of impact. Four movies this century have outgrossed it, but I think in terms of the intersection

between critical respectability, cultural cachet, mainstream popularity, staying power, and financial gross, it's the one. I think it's the one. I think it's the defining movie of our times for better or for worse. Yes. The movie is called… Both, I would say, by the way, for better and for worse. I agree. Really?

It's a complicated movie, and its legacy is really messy now. Kind of like, you know, we did The Matrix. Yeah. You know, there's a lot movie and its legacy is really messy now. Kind of like, you know, we did The Matrix. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of movies we covered that are like this. Yeah. Sometimes. Avatar? Yeah. Sometimes good movies get bad by bad people. Sure, yeah. Sometimes bad people make good movies bad.

Okay. That's what I was trying to say. Anyway, hi. Movie's called The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight. I always thought it was The Duck Knight. Anyway, hi. Movie's called The Dark Knight. Uh, The Dark Knight. I always thought it was The Duck Knight. Yeah, but there's no duck. I thought it was Hockey Pants and Duck Knight. Uh, this is, of course, the second Bartman movie. Yes, Bartman's back.

Bartman's back. But this time, who's he gonna face? Richard T. Joker. Great, great voice. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, yep. Why not laughing more? I'm Richard T. Joker We're here to record what we know is going to be a long episode

And we're starting just With just nothing We're starting with the air In the potato chip bag We're leading with the air It's potato chip bag you know we're leading with the air it's the opposite of the hanukkah story we're like we don't have enough oil to last for eight nights and then in fact correct we don't even have oil for one night we try to light the first candle and we don't have anything right we are right we're like we've got this huge bucket of

oil we try to light the candles nothing's going on it's a dry wick not to be confused with john wick dry wick is his half brother um this film comes out in 2008 and sort of uh breaks the culture yeah no you're right if it becomes a black hole everything gets sucked into the dark night it's true and nine years later we're still feeling that kind of that pull I would say it had been a while though you know and it was actually nice to come back to it because it's been a few years since I watched this movie yeah same here

so much has changed a lot has changed like it's like you got Dark Knight then the after effects of Dark Knight for a few years yeah then that kind of begins to dissipate and we have the new normal, right? The more studio-controll-y, franchise-y normal.

Right, right. That obviously has some Dark Knight DNA in it, but, you know, a lot of other stuff. So now you watch the Dark Knight and you're like, wow, it's like I'm watching a movie from like a thousand years ago. It really does feel like we've gone through

like four different shifts in mainstream film culture since then. And also Warner Brothers Studios, the week that we're recording this episode, this will Warner Brothers Studios that the week that we're recording this episode, this will come out later, the week that we're recording it, the story came out that Warner Brothers said they no longer want to work with auteur directors who will demand Final Cut.

That's right. Those jerks. Right. They said the only two exceptions are Nolan and Eastwood. Those are the only two guys in the back lot who they will let do what they want. I only saw the headline. I didn't realize that that's, you know, how are you supposed to put up with that even if you're a Christopher Nolan?

You know, obviously it's nice that they give you money to make your movie. He's the one guy they're giving the check to and giving full reign to. And Eastwood because he's 900 years old. He's an oak tree that's grown in their studio. Also, Clint Eastwood delivers you a movie on time under budget yeah you like with a star in it that more often than not makes a shit ton of money i mean clint eastwood's like weirdly one of those bankable names in hollywood and if an eastwood movie bombs it'll make back it's like money on like airplane rentals like his budgets are low enough

and they're the kind of movies that people want to like get from red box or watch on a plane or like in a hotel room like i'm looking at his direct i mean he's like jersey boys was a flop i guess yeah but it made 47 million on a 40 dollar 40 million dollar budget i actually completely forgot until just now that he directed a jersey boys no kidding you forgot the movie existed you forgot he directed it you know and that you forgot the frankie valley ever lived that's how bad it was it erased frankie valley from the time joe pesci yeah and that came out the same year that he released american sniper the fourth biggest movie in the history of warner brothers as a studio yeah yeah yeah yeah there you go that's the thing if you look at warner brothers like top films now it's like five nolans and Eastwood and a couple Harry Potters oh and now I think fucking BVS and Suicide Squad exactly they got the the DC universe um but you know even like Jay Edgar beat its budget yeah like these movies

nobody saw yeah like Changeling oh no that didn't actually beat its budget all right fine anyway changeling is bad changeling is very bad changing so it's almost like an 85 year old guy made a movie about like the women's experience you know in the turn of the century yeah and how tough that was for her it's almost like what happens when that happens i remember reading uh an interview with eastwood when changeling came out where he was talking about why he cast Angelina Jolie. And he said, when you look at people from that time period, they all had faces back then. Angelina Jolie looks like someone from the 30s because she's got a real face. It's like no one in the 30s looked like Angelina Jolie.

I understand the vague point he's trying to make. She's a movie star. That's all he really means. She kind of looks like Ava Gardner or whatever. I don't know what the fuck is so extreme she's like she's like a like a crossbreed dog do you know what i'm saying she's like a pug where it's like this isn't like like physically sustainable right she's like a puggle uh but like yeah right where it's like you breed enough like of like french bulldogs and then right you're like this is like a wonderfully cute creature, but eventually like,

it's not gonna be able to breathe or whatever. Like enough generations of bizarrely pretty people had to keep fucking for generation after generation to get to the point where we had Angelina Jolie. Well, I think it's more like if, if it kept going, we'd have a problem. Like Angelina Jolie is a very nice and interesting.

Well, let's look at Jolie's kids with Brad Pitt. That might be. They're gorgeous. Maybe they can't breathe, though. They're gorgeous little children. Maybe they can't breathe. All right, that's enough.

Maybe their snouts are too flat. That's enough. The Dark Knight. That's enough of that. My God. Cut it all out, Ben. Sully, though. This is the best movie ever made.

I rewatched it. So good. Yeah. I rewatched it. Have you rewatched it? Was it a forced water landing? I've seen Sully. I wish we'd done it in June.

Is it July or June, he says? I think he says June. July. That's the last line of the film. That's the last line of the movie. Talk about a blackout. Oh, my God. Talk about a blackout.

Talk about Aaron Eckhart in this film. Yes. Good segue. Le Dark Knight. Yes. He plays Michael J. Two-Face. Harvey Dent. Not to be confused with Michael K. Bane.

Sure. He's right. Is that the name you... I'm staying consistent. I fucking hate this. Shut up. Just be quiet. See, now he's revved up, Ben.

Remember he was like, I'm tired. I'm all tired. I haven't even taken a sip of my coffee yet. Ready for how amped I'm going to get? I'm going to get twisted I'm going to get twisted. He has to do it. Good cup of coffee. How are you doing there?

Oh, wait a second. Oh, God. Wait a second. He's so hyped up. Ow. Griffin. Glow I just shit my pants damn it

who's gonna clean that up am I gonna I'm the one that cleaned it up the gorgeous ladies of wrestling are gonna clean it up available to watch now on Netflix

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You just want a company like Amazon That's going to really take it's time to craft a good Original series for you The Duck Knight The Duck Knight Chris Nolan, Chrissy N He made Batman Begins, it was a big hit Bartman Begins, but yes

Bartman Begins People liked yes. Bartman Begins. People liked it. They said, we want more of this. The tease at the end of the Joker had people fucking clamoring. And David S. Goyer, as the movie was being made, wrote treatments for two sequels. Okay. One with the Joker

and then the other one with Harvey Dent. Okay. So they had those kind of ready as like, if we want more. Okay. So they had those like kind of like ready as like, if we want more. Okay. Two pitches. Two pitches. Two pitches.

Two Goyer pitches. Uh-huh. Yeah. Right down the plate. What are the two pitches? Like I told you, the first one's the Joker movie. Right.

Which, and then the second one's the Harvey Dent movie. And he was going off of the Long Halloween which they had used a little bit of for the Batman Begins you know with what's it called? Falcone. Falcone right. And Harvey Dent's arc in this is very similar to

the Long Halloween. Yeah. Joker is not really a part of Long Halloween. But the Harvey Dent. No he's not a part of it. Long Halloween is the real Harvey Dent backstory. Long Halloween is like a sort of stretched out. Of an honest man. Yeah. Take yeah much more deep No, he's not a dentist. Long Halloween is the real Harvey Dent backstory. Long Halloween is like a sort of stretched out take, much more deep take on the original Harvey Dent myth, which is like he was this attorney, yada, yada, yada.

All this stuff happened to him. It's got the classic acid, though. Yes. That's his typical comic book origin is the acid only hit half of him. Yes, while he was prosecuting. Yeah. And somehow it burned the rest of his body too. No.

Okay. Don't worry about it. Um, so Nolan was, uh, uncertain if he wanted to even make a sequel. Yeah. Right.

Pretty crazy to think about now. Yeah, it is. But I do actually think that the story of these movies is each time Nolan kind of has to be talked into it. The first time he's basically happy to make a sequel and the second time he really doesn't want to. I think it shows, but I think in this film

he was into the Joker. He wanted to do the Joker. And he cracked, what if I make it a different type of movie? What if I don't just try to make Batman Begins 2? What if I try to do my version of Michael Mann's Heat in the world of Batman? It's very true. So the film goes through

a stylistic shift. It goes through a sort of theological shift. It does. To a degree, yeah. Also, as we mentioned, I think on our Batman Begins episode.

Bartman Begins. Bartman Begins. You know, he's like, this will be a Joker movie. Yeah. And Batman will be important, but is going to be more reflected through

the Joker. This is a movie I've always wanted to take a stopwatch to. movie yeah and batman will be important but is going to be more reflected through the joker this is a movie i've always wanted to take a stopwatch to like in terms of screen time because i kind of a lot of batman in it i kind of feel like dent joker uh it's a lot of dent batman and gordon all are like equalish kind of i mean but there's i feel like all of them would get pretty close in terms of screen time breakdown. I don't think so because... Not equal, but pretty close. I don't think the Joker's in it that much.

He's sort of an underrated... Like, he's not in the first chunk of the movie at all. Then he shows up. But, you know, they use him very sparingly in a way where it doesn't really feel like they're using him sparingly.

But it's a movie in which these characters are often isolated. They're obviously the points where they cross. Yes, this is true. But Harvey Dent also is like... I feel like they're using him sparingly. But it's a movie in which these characters are often isolated. They're obviously the points where they cross. But Harvey Dent also is like I feel like each character has kind of got 30 minutes. Yeah, but the thing about Dent is he gets the last half like the last third of the movie.

And the Joker, he's just peppered in. But so Nolan and his brother Jonathan the Nolans they decide to steep themselves in Joker. Right. And they decide to go off of the first appearance of the Joker. And this is the first time.

As like a touchstone, yes. The first time Jonathan Nolan is like officially credited co-screenwriter. Right, because with Memento, he actually did get an Oscar nomination, but he was, it was technically like based on his real story. Right, right. Yes. There was always a sense, okay, his brother was helping him out with stuff. Is that right?

I'm trying to remember the person. I believe so. I believe Nolan has sole screenwriting credit, but it's based on... No. Because Talvin McRae... You're wrong, you're wrong. Really?

They both wrote it? Yeah. Okay. So I'm wrong. So I'm wrong. So I'm wrong. I'll admit I'm a big man. Yeah, big man, huh?

Not physically, but yeah. And also they liked the Fritz Lang movie, The Testament of Dr. Maboose. Yeah, cool movie. I actually have no idea how you say that. Maboose. Testament of Dr. Maboose Yeah, cool movie I actually have no idea how you say that Maboose Maboose And he was very interested unlike the Tim Burton film

in avoiding an origin story Yes Just having the Joker be like an elemental figure Which was, I mean, I think the masterstroke of this movie Oh, for sure. That allows it to be this more, that allows this movie to function as such a philosophical exercise.

And then as you say, he obviously also has this big idea of like, Michael Mann's Heat is the story of LA told through these criminals and cops fighting each other. Why can't I do the same thing with Gotham? Make it a movie about a city. Make, you know, like, you know, like the city.

Like, and not a character in like the cheesy way. Right. I don't know. Like, like literally buildings feel like characters for him. I always thought it would be cool if this movie was called Gotham City. Well, I think I thought your argument was that the third one should be called Gotham City. A hundred percent. Because like, I kind of agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, don't call it The Dark Knight Rises should be called Gotham City. A hundred percent. Because I kind of agree with that.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, don't call it The Dark Knight Rises. Call it Gotham City. I hate that. We'll talk about that next episode. It's called that because that has to have been like the studio was like, come on. But it's like calling it The Empire Strikes Back again.

Yeah. You know? It's like calling it Spider-Man 2 2. It's like you take the best one. Spider-Man 2 comma T-O-O. My friend Doug Rosenberg used to have this bit that there were so many Critters movies, sequels had sequels. So he was like, it's like Critters 4 2.

I just think about that all the time. It's a good joke. There are few jokes that please me more than that one. It's up there with Consider the Coconut for me, of just things that will make me laugh anytime I think about it. All right. Have you considered the leaves, Ben? Do you want to introduce them?

Producer Ben? The Benducer? The Produer? Mr. Positive? Mr. Positive? The Haas? The Paws? The Meat Lover? The Fart Detective? The Tiebreaker? Birthday Benny? The leaves. The Fuckmaster? Not Professor Crispy

Dirt Bike Benny The Poet Laureate The Peeper Our finest film critic Graduated certain titles over the course of different major series Such as Kylo Ben Producer Ben Kenobi

Ben Night Shyamalan Ben say Say Benny thing Ailey Ben's with a dollar sign and war haunts Are we done? No I don't know if I hit anything. Ben, say anything. Ailey Benz with the dollar sign and war hats. Are we done? No, I haven't. I totally zone out. Every time he does that, folks.

Can I blow your mind? Yeah. You just did. Oh. When I was listing those names and you were trying to figure out whether or not you had ever considered the coconut and its leaves. Oh, my God. You just considered both. Oh my god. This is ridiculous. Okay, the other thing

that the other big decision Nolan makes. What is it, Griffin? IMAX. Well, that's actually true. And you do see it when you're watching it on Blu-ray. Literally big decision. Very true. But no, it's... Let me get this Harvey Dent thing. Let me just fucking squeeze it on in the back there.

Let's put them together. Oh, yeah. Let's make one movie about both villains. That's an epic. And Harvey Dent is kind of, if you look at this movie- Harvey Dent is the backbone of the movie, according to him.

I'd argue he's the protagonist. In a sort of way. In terms of the fact that the film, the arc of the film follows his rise and fall. Yes, but also the film is about how things kind of get worse before they get better. You know, it's like Batman Night is darkest before the dawn

right Batman who's not safe Gotham all Batman has done is kind of you know like started the war like drawn the rules of battle

and now it's like a much worse fight in a way like Gotham was shitty before now it's kind of insane but maybe like with some chance of like chance of getting it out of this situation. And Harvey Dent represents what Batman wishes he could be,

which is someone who is able to function, to fight in the light, not in the shadows, with his own name, with his own face, above the law. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Harvey Dent's kind of like, yeah, Gotham's possibility. White Knight. Yes, he's the White Knight. Batman's the Dark Knight. So he does that. that you think that's a good decision great decision great decision and it

definitely is three movies yes and people have complained i i remember when the movie came out and people liked the movie movie was pretty popular quite well reviewed and uh made some money but i remember you know the the thinking, because even at that point in time, the idea was like, oh, every superhero movie you got to end setting up with the next one would be. And so people kind of assumed, oh, he's going to turn into Two-Face at the end. That's true. Going into the movie, I was like, oh, Eckhart's in this, but he's being set up. He's Harvey Dent and he's setting up. And then Joker will fuck him up.

Right. And the fact that Harvey Dent's a closed loop in this film. Yep. I remember people being upset about that and saying, like, they should have saved that for the third one. I think the reason this movie is so effective is because it's telling. It's spinning several plates at the same time. Yeah, but not only that, that has become such an irritating trope. Not to get mad at y'all.

Sure, sure. In every movie where it's like, you know, I'll be leaving some superhero movie with a friend of mine or my girlfriend or whatever who don't like know the fucking comics or whatever. And they'll be like, but what was the deal with that character?

And I'm like, well, he's going to in the next movie, they're going to do it with him. Like, you know, like, yeah,

it's the worst. It's the worst, the worst, the worst, the worst. And this movie, rewatching it last night, it is kind of incredible

how self-contained it is. Because Batman is one of the few pieces of pop culture that is so well-known, so established, that people even know kind of like four rungs down into the basics of Batman. Yes. Of how he functions and Alfred and everything. Right. And this movie references so little of what happens directly in Batman Begins. And especially even just recasting Rachel Dawes. It's like you can enter into this movie references so little of what happens directly in Batman Begins and especially even just recasting

Rachel Dawes it's like you can enter into this movie all the background the context you need is just from knowing who Batman is I know who Batman is I know who Bruce Wayne is I know who Alfred is I know how he functions and then all the primary characters in this film are pretty much established within the film

you know the problem obviously that your Green Lanterns or whatever have is, like, they can't do that. They can't do that. People don't know. People don't know. They have to set them up. Right.

Batman, they don't have to do it. People know who the Joker is. People know who Batman is. People know who Gotham is. They know who Alfred is. They know who Two-Face is. I'd like a little splash of chemical waste, you know? Oh, so you want a Joker origin?

Just a little splash. This is, you know, I think because he was so unconcerned with making a kind of obvious didactic sequel to the story he set up, he just made a story that was interesting to him with the Batman universe as a

vehicle to say what he wanted to say. Which is interestingly kind of the same thing that Burton did with Batman Returns. I mean, Batman Returns is a movie where he just went, I'm going to make a Burton movie using Batman characters. Yep. And it is kind of its own thing from the first one, except people went, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, that one freaked people out. In the Dark Knight, everyone was like, ah, me likey.

And all these people who hadn't seen Batman Begins were there opening night like jazz because it was just, A, the idea that he was doing the Joker. That was what Pete Travers says by the way. What? Me likey. That was his quote on the DVD box.

Joker's just like, you know, the two most iconic villains in the history of superhero comics are the Joker and Doctor Doom. And one of them

has been done correctly a bunch of times. The other one has been done incorrectly every time. The Joker's way more iconic than Doctor Doom. I agree. But Doctor Doom done correctly a bunch of times. The other one has been done incorrectly every time. The Joker's way more iconic than Doctor Doom. I agree. But Doctor Doom's the best Marvel villain. Would you agree with that?

Yes. I would. I like Magneto. But that's more of a personal preference. I think Doctor Doom's probably your number one Marvel villain. Yeah. Joker's the big guy. Everyone knows who he is.

Everyone likes him. And he's a guy who's, you know, open to a lot of different interpretations. Yes. He's multifaceted, so you can, open to a lot of different interpretations. Yes. He's multifaceted. So you can always come at it from a new angle and go, this time we're going to do a little less of this, a little more of that. Right. Like, you want to talk about David Ayer's angle on him in the film Suicide Squad?

Yeah. The angle was, what if Joker dumb? A little bit less of this. This one's good. Yeah. Him being good. Yeah. More of this. Dumb. Yeah. No. Him being good. Yeah. More of this.

Dumb. Yeah. No, no, no, no. Come on. Let's be honest. He was like, what if he was twisted? We've seen the Joker before, but he's never been twisted. He's never arranged knives in a perfect semicircle and then laughed near them.

Most people who shred on on electric guitar aren't literally shredding but this joker is what if joker ran a strip club which is what happens in that movie joker meets scarface yeah exactly right, yes. Whereas this is like, I mean, Heath Ledger talked a lot about Malcolm McDowell's performance in A Clockwork Orange.

Sure. Right? Yes. An anarchic joker. Right. Mysterious. Yeah, he weirdly like... Kind of funny.

Yes. Like, you know, in kind of a like creepy way, but like not... It all sounds lame when I say it. Somehow, even though

it was nine years in advance you know and the movie hadn't been made yet I remember a time at the time when Heath Ledger

was doing interviews they asked him what he based his character on he said mostly I was trying to think of what the most twisted evil horrifying character in the history of cinema was

so I picked Henry from the book of Henry yeah right right right he went for that it's crazy little old Hank not Henry from Portrait of a Serial Killer,

which is, of course, what Henry grows up to be. The second scariest. He's alive. You got to open the book, folks. Got to open the book. But, yeah, I mean, as we said in our Batman Begins episode, like, from the second Batman Begins came out, people were flipping out over who was going to play the Joker.

I know. People were freaking out. And I think we talked about it in our of our Matrix sequels episodes because there was the Leitchie Holm rumor. Oh, right. Yeah. But there was – everyone was going to be the Joker. Everyone was going to be the Joker. Anyone who was like vaguely weird.

Right. And I just remember every single piece of this movie being chewed over and inspected in a way that now has kind of become par for the course. And certainly online film, you know, nerdery existed before then. But I feel like the hype for this movie kind of raised everything to a new level that it has stayed at now. Now we're just dissecting everything. Running times are big news stories, you know. And I remember that being one of the movies where it was like, oh, it's two and a half hours. That was like a headline. People were just so excited about

every tidbit about this movie because it felt like this is kind of the apex movie moment of what the superhero film trend has been building up to. Sure. And people, I remember at the onset of that summer 2008 said, this is the year the superhero movie dies. I think we've hit the apex and it's going to end.

How funny. Right. And it was Iron Man came out in May, and The Dark Knight came out in July, and they just both kick-started the next 10 years. Okay. You know? Everyone thought it had, like, crested,

we were coming to an end, and instead it, like, revived it and set the template of what everyone else was going to follow it also sparked a zillion bad trends such as people thinking that this was like you know comic books done right these people who were like i a grown person understand batman because i read the comics and always have. I know what's correct and what isn't. Which we talked about a lot in our Batman Begins episode.

But it's more the idea that this movie is respecting the characters rather than taking them seriously. Right. But I think everyone misinterpreted it and went, oh, let's take everything

way too seriously. Let's drown it in gravitas. Yes. Which especially if you are not's drown in gravitas. Yes. Which especially if you are not a filmmaker of gravitas, that comes off really cloying if it's fake sort of pretentious babble. Trying to think of like, maybe I should like summon up a list of like

comic book movies, you know, all comic book movies that like sort of came after. Well, I even feel like, you know what kind of kept on tiptoeing through my mind while rewatching this last night? I know it's a movie you like more than I do. Which one? I feel like even the far tentacle reaches of like Prometheus

are kind of inspired by something like this, where it's like, oh, what if we can revive a franchise and put a lot of like philosophical debate into the body of the movie a franchise but why so serious no but you know here's the no but that thing the kind of i'm very glad heady blockbuster i'm very glad i looked at this list okay because after the dark now i'm not counting the other movies of 2008 which include like hellboy 2 the spirit so there was similar kinds of movies coming out where it was like artist led comic book movies.

Sure, but yeah, those are coming from different angles. I mean, Spirit's going off of Sin City. I know. 2009, you have Watchmen and you have X-Men Origins Wolverine. Those are the two superhero movies of that year. The only two? Imagine just two and one of them is Watchmen.

That's crazy. But watchmen is definitely heavily inspired by the dark knight and the watchman trailer budget is inspired by the dark knight but the watchman trailer plays before the dark knight uh does it yeah maybe you're right yeah and i remember that being the thing i'm like fucking watchman right like people were like watchman's like i guess watchman is inspired by batman begins as well obviously you know and 300 and 300 that was the big thing i worked at forbidden planet in new york city right after Like people were like Watchmen's like the sequel. I guess Watchmen is inspired by Batman Begins as well obviously. And 300. And 300. That was the big thing.

I worked at Forbidden Planet in New York City right after the fall of 2008. Yeah. So in the wake of the Dark Knight and the buildup to Watchmen coming out that March. And it was like I swear to God one out of every five books sold was either the killing joke, I swear to God, one out of every five books sold was either The Killing Joke, which they always cited as the main influence on Heath Ledger's interpretation of the Joker. Yes. The Alan Moore Joker one-off. Or Watchmen.

It was like every week we'd get a new shipment in of Killing Joke and a new shipment of Watchmen. By the end of that week, we'd be done. And The Killing Joke is like a pretty bad comic, one of Moore's worst in my opinion. Yeah, it's not very good. Well drawn and like has a good idea to it. Yeah. But is also kind of famous as the one where the Joker kills, I mean not kills, paralyzes Batgirl. And like it just feels like too much for not enough.

Like it just felt like, it kind of feels like the epitome of one of those sort of two dark and gritty quote unquote comic books. It also, not to stand on my dumb soapbox here for a second, but it's very short. Yeah. It's like 30, 40 pages maybe. Yeah. And there was like some hardcover re-release special edition that they had like come out with to tie into the Joker boon post Dark Knight. But there also was this book called the DC Universe Collected Stories of Alan Moore.

Oh, I love that book. I have that book. And I would always say to people, they'd be like, do you have The Killing Joke? And I'd be like, don't buy The Killing Joke, buy this. It includes The Killing Joke.

It costs the same amount of money. It does. And it has 10 better stories. What do you have? The Man Who Has Everything or What Do You Buy? The Man Who Has Everything, the Superman story.

Yeah, it's got some Swamp Thing stuff. It's got great, great stuff in it. I love that book. And people would always want to buy The Killing Joke because they want to have it on their shelf. Yeah. The Joker's twisted visage. Yeah, yeah.

Comic books. People are annoying. Yeah. 2010, you get Kick-Ass. Okay. Iron Man 2. Right. Here's the big one.

Jonah Hex. Yeah. Jonah Hex. Yeah. Let's do it. Oh, wait, you want us to do a Wonder Woman movie? I don't know, but Jonah Hex, though. That's crazy.

So 2011 is when we really kind of hit oversaturation point. 2011, the superhero movies are The Green Hornet, Thor, X-Men First Class, Green Lantern, Captain America, The First Adventure. Yeah, that's the year where they start really kind of figuring out what they're going to do. Yeah. Not that all the movies are working working but the companies figure out their strategies about how they're making agreed yeah like yeah yeah anyway it goes on anyway the Dark Knight the other thing he did okay what should we mention some of the people who are fucking considered for the Joker I don't know I mean like every if you depending on who you believe, everyone. Paul Bettany, Adrian Brody, Robin Williams.

That's not real. That was like, they considered him for the Riddler. Robin Williams always wanted to be in a Batman movie. Right. Because he was a big nerd. And Nicholson briefly wasn't going to do it. And Williams signed on for the original 89 Batman. And then he found out that he was being used as negotiation leverage.

He wanted to play the Riddler in Schumacher, but then Jim Carrey got so big. And because, you know, I think he had worked with Nolan before, he campaigned heavily to play someone in this trilogy. But, I mean, there was no villain picked that he was a right fit for. And it became, after this, everyone thought he was going to do the Riddler.

Remember that? For Dark Knight Rises. Yeah, everyone thought the third movie was going to have a Riddler and everyone was always like X for the Riddler. Like, can we have a Riddler? You know who I thought he could have played? The Riddler. I thought he would have been a good Nolan verse.

Uh, Hugo strange. Sure. Hugo strange would be fine. I thought that was the kind of zone he'd be good at. But anyway, whatever didn't happen. So everyone was considered. Apparently Matt Damon was first kind of zone he'd be good at. But anyway, didn't happen. Everyone was considered. Apparently

Matt Damon was first offered Harvey Dent. Makes sense. And I remember being disappointed when he didn't get the part because it seemed kind of iconic. Man, Aaron Eckert. Ruffalo, Ryan Phillippe, Josh Lucas, Liev Schreiber,

Hugh Jackman, but I'm sure Jackman wasn't interested. Liev Schreiber makes a lot of sense. But Eckhart's kind of ideal in this part. And he was an interesting point because he blows up in the company of men as like, oh, here's this very traditional kind of leading man guy. Yeah, good looking guy who can play an asshole. Right. So then Hollywood was like, well, can we put him in a movie that's less toxic?

And then he sort of became this character support guy. You know, he's in Erin Brockovich. Where he's kind of unrecognizable. He's very good in it. He's quite good in that movie. He's in Nurse Betty, which he's the villain in, sort of. He's like the asshole she leaves. Yeah.

Then he's in The Core and Paycheck. And it felt like he had kind of like— He's really just struggling at this point. It felt like he'd wiped out, and then Thank You for Smoking. 2006, yeah. Suddenly put him back on the map, and at that moment, Nolan is putting together Dark Knight

and he becomes the guy. And this is it. And when this came out everyone was like now Eckhart's finally found his place he's gonna be a solid Hollywood leading man

and he has only made bad choices since then. Well, he was in Rabbit Hole which like, you know is a fine choice. He rules in Sully. Look, he's the best in Sully but in between

Rabbit Hole and Sully I Franken, he's the best in Sully, but in between Rabbit Hole and Sully. I Frankenstein! You know, in the Fallen movies, which it's like, you're always like, oh yeah, he's in those. He's the president. Yeah. Yeah.

But in both of them, he gets kidnapped and then Freeman becomes the acting president, so it's kind of a thankless role. It's Freeman and Butler, those movies, not him. Yeah, exactly. He's always just the MacGuffin. I know, that's what I'm saying. And like, Bleed for This and Sully last year,

he's great in both of those movies. Yeah, but no one saw Bleed for This, and Sully was unrecognized in its time. And of course, according to this thing I'm reading, he also played Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight Coaster. The what? The Dark Knight Coaster The what? The Dark Knight Coaster A roller coaster

Oh really? At Six Flags Great Adventure We should go on that I don't know if it still exists If it does Let me ask this If it does

could we do that as a bonus episode? No, no way The three of us go to Six Flags I'm looking at Ben right now Ben I'm into it No, I hate roller coasters of us go to Six Flags. I'm looking at Ben right now. Ben. I'm into it. No, I hate roller coasters.

Great state of New Jersey. Yeah. We go. We record an episode live at Six Flags. Great adventure. Why did I bring this up? Like, what is the matter with me? We go on the coaster.

We eat some churros. We have a fun time. I buy merchandise. It'd be a fun day, David. Okay. I'm not sure if it still exists. If you want us to do a bonus episode on the Dark Knight coaster, tweet at David L. Sims and let him know. Seems like it's in the dark.

Great. I don't know. All the better for podcasting. Oh, that's going to be really fun to hear us on the ride. Apparently, it's somewhat of a mild coaster. Great. And smaller. Great.

One snag, it's a bit dark, according to one of the comments I'm reading. Well, good thing podcasting is an audio medium. What, you think we're going to record? Yes. Of course. We're going to ride it 10 times. Jeez. We don't talk in between our rides.

We don't talk online. But every time we get on the ride, we start recording and pick up the conversation from where we left off. Bonus app. We're about 40 minutes in. We should probably start talking about the movie, right? Jesus Christ. Okay.

So here's how the movie starts. It's a Warner Brothers picture. Oh, no. You're kidding me. No, it's actually, I like the, it's very, because the first movie, the title card is just bats. Yeah. Turning into a bat and then dispersing into bats.

And that movie had a color scheme, especially in its advertising, but also just in... Brown! Yes. Brown! Sort of thing! Yeah, I'm the one flying off the handle in this episode, David, definitely. Let's lay

all the blame at my feet. Mr. Brown over here, taking a one-way trip to Browntown what's the color scheme of this movie blue no one's listening they've all turned it off

this is the biggest movie we'll ever cover and we're blowing it we were like guaranteed blockbuster episode that's why we chose Nolan it's like everyone's gonna wanna hear our take on the big movies that they've all seen. And we're like, brrrow. Boom. Oh, my God.

Jesus Christ. We're not making Podmas for this one. Rebecca's not going to like this. All right. Okay. Okay. So movie starts with an IMAX prologue that was released with I Am Legend. Yeah.

You mean the whole bank robbery set piece. All shot in IMAX. Yes. Before he made this movie, like the, you know, all this Nolan shit turns into legend. It's really annoying. I can't deny it. Like before they made Blade Runner, I mean, before they made Batman Vs. I'm sorry.

It turns into a legend. A legend. Master Wayne. Not Master Wayne. He's not Alfred.s. I'm sorry, it turns into Alleged Master Wayne. Not Master Wayne. He's not Alfred. Okay, I'm sorry. Hockey pants. Brown hockey pants? Bartman.

What is this? I just raised the table. Yeah, I know. We have moving tables now. Oh no, I'm crushing my legs. Hey, stop it. This is not helping the table. Yeah, I know. We have moving tables now. Oh, no. I'm crushing my legs. Hey, stop it. This is not helping the episode, by the way. Okay, come on.

I literally have no idea what we were just talking about. Ben, Ben, Ben. What's up? Why so serious? Why? He did it. He did it. He got that line in.

I got it. Before Batman Begins, he showed his crew Blade Runner, right? Yes. And he said, I want you to think about this movie, and we're making this movie. Yeah. Before The Dark Knight, he showed his crew Blade Runner right and he said I want you to think about this movie we're making this movie yeah before the Dark Knight he shows his crew

Heat yes and he says I love men to them movies about boys but he also right

it's called Batman for a reason he starts with a bank heist and he casts William Fichtner yeah the come on

the great William F fickner the fucking greatest one of those great american characters where whenever he shows up in the scene you're in good hands i will we'll talk about it on our michael bay miniseries whenever it is we do it but i want to preview now that his reading of the line he's got space dementia in armageddon is like one of the top tier line readings of all time. Dude is just a pro. You go from never having heard of space dementia

hearing the word space dementia and thinking that's not a thing to totally believing in space dementia. One, he's like my favorite

type of character actor where he's simultaneously like pretty handsome and kind of creepy. Very true. Right. It's like he is, I mean,

it's almost a Cillian Murphy situation where he does have a really striking face but at the same time you're like he's frightening I'm sure if you saw him in person you'd be like unqualified handsome guy

when you photograph him something about him he's got those icy eyes he's got very really defined cheekbones I want to fuck his face so there's leave his face alone Those icy eyes. He's got very, really defined cheekbones. Yep. I want to fuck his face. So there's- Whoa.

What? Throttle back. What's going on? Leave his face alone. No, no. He wanted Dwight Yoakam to play this role. That's my favorite thing about it. But Dwight Yoakam was like, I got to go, you know, take my country act, you know, on the

road again. I got to act in five Vince Vaughn movies. So it's Fickner, but he's so good. So good. But anyway. IMAX, as you say. Right. And this was Fickner, but he's so good. So good. But anyway, IMAX, as you say. Right.

And this was all part of the buildup to this movie. They also did this thing. I don't know if you remember this, but they did this thing where they had like a whole kind of like second life viral campaign for the movie where people had to like email in to uncover images. Do you remember that? We should talk about it. I mean,

obviously they had this whole campaign planned around the Joker. Yeah. And then Heath Ledger dies. But this is even prior to that. I'm talking before the first trailer came out when they released the first image of what the Joker... Fine! Yes, I remember the image of him. Do you remember that thing? Yeah, behind the...

And it was piece by piece you were trying to get... I know, but we should talk about it. Heath Ledger died. I can't believe we even mentioned that. Well, spoiler. You know, Heath Ledger died... When did he He died, I know exactly when he died.

He died on my brother James' birthday. January 22nd, 2008. I was living in Paris at the time. I was in my one semester of college that I made it through. I'm sorry, I was at the start of the second semester that I dropped out of weeks later. I just remember someone texted me

with like a confusing text that was like Heath Ledger, like, and I was like, why did someone just text me that? And I went onto the internet and I saw it and it's like one of those rare celebrity deaths where I was like literally like shell-shocked for like a day. Yeah, it was so bizarre. It was the worst. It was the day of the

Oscar nominations that year. That's right. The year before. My brother's birthday. No country Oscars. I was living in LA, so the time zones were different. And I just remember getting it and being very disarmed and confused for the entire day. It just felt like he had just emerged as like, oh, I guess this is the guy of his generation. Right. Brokeback seemed to cement him as like, he's going to be one of the guys.

100%. And then, you know, he's going to be one of the guys. 100%. And then, you know, he's casting this and you're like, huh? Okay. The Joker. And people made all these dumb jokes. Everyone hated when he got announced. People were like, what? Joker's going to be gay now?

Brokeback Joker? Who are these idiots? His face is too round. Joker's supposed to look skeletal. There were all these dumb petty complaints. And then the second, like, stuff started coming out. The first images, the first trailers. By the time he died, there had been one trailer.

And people were already like, Jesus Christ, this performance looks interesting. It's for sure. The design, the voice, everything seemed to be. And then they had to scrap their whole advertising campaign, which was all based around him. And they went with this much more muted campaign that was more like those images of Batman in front of a skyscraper. And there's the bat signals on fire and stuff like that, you know. But there was, I mean, you know, there were a lot of factors, but I don't think there's ever been more excitement for a performance.

More hype about a performance. No, 100%. And it was like people were already excited to see Nolan do the Joker. And people were excited by what they had seen of this performance. And then when he died, it added this like whole weird aura to it. Right. You're right. And, you know, it's gross, but a thing that helps this movie and its legacy is that you never had him doing Jay Leno and talking about the performance.

You're right. That the performance totally speaks for itself. That Nolan kind of was very respectful and classy about how he talked about Heath Ledger and didn't try to exploit his legacy. And it's just this weird, out-of-nowhere performance that exists totally on its own without any sort of explanation. Were Heath Ledger still alive, we would see him right now on Ellen promoting his next movie, telling new Joker anecdotes to try to give his movie the Joker boost.

Maybe. Pete Fodger was always a weird guy, but maybe. But you know, the way people do that. I know what you're saying, of course.

You're saying it's like the Kurt Cobain thing or whatever. I get what you're saying and of course, yeah, I mean, but anyway,

it sucks that he's dead. Yeah, and that's, you know, like, when this movie came out and just blew the doors off of all box office records.

It was why there had to be a sequel. Right. But it's so obvious that Nolan there had to be a sequel. Right. But it's so obvious that Nolan had no plans for a sequel that didn't have the Joker in it. Right. And it kind of left him at a loss. But people kept on seeing it over and over again.

It was really driven by like, Nolan himself said when people asked him like, what do you think is behind the success? And he goes, look, I think it's a weird lightning in a bottle thing. I'm proud of the movie we made, but Heath gave this incredible performance and the circumstances added this to it. Everyone is going to see it because of what he did. I just remember it being like,

when did you see it? I went opening night, I went to the Union Square Regal and it was like every theater was playing The Dark Knight. The campaign was called Dark Knight All Night and these theaters would have every screen was playing The Dark Knight and there'd be like 12, 1201, 1202, 1203.

Yeah. It played for 72 hours straight that opening weekend. I went and saw an early screening with my grandmother. She's a member of BAFTA, which is the British Academy of Film and Television Arts. I'm aware of what BAFTA is. And this is your grandma who runs like a French film festival? She's like a talent liaison for an American film festival in the north of France. Yeah.

And so she gets invited to all these screenings and went with her. And they always, the BAFTA people will come out and give a little introduction where they just say the movie. And they never editorialize. They go like, this is the film directed by this person with this cast. Enjoy. And I remember the guy came out and he said like, obviously weird circumstance with Heath Ledger,

but everyone has said this performance is incredible. There even was this thing in this stuffy room of old British ladies. Everyone was like, what? This fucking performance. And I remember just in this very kind of like, excuse me, polite, subdued crowd. I wasn't seeing it with like a blockbuster fanboy audience. Anytime

he was on screen, there was this weird electric energy. Oh, it's electrifying. It's a great performance. It's crazy how good he is in this movie. It's crazy. I will say, though... Crazy like the Joker. Even crazier! Unpredictable! Twisted! No, no. I will say, watching

it now, there is an element of so much of what was incredible about this performance is it just felt so surprising. I guess so. In terms of how much variation he has in the character, how much his dialect can change, how much his physicality can change,

how much his energy can change, there's an unpredictable element to what's he going to do next, right? Like he captured how the Joker feels in your city to an audience member because you're just like, what's this guy doing

zigging and zagging? And now this performance is so chewed over, so many impressions. It's weird watching it now when you know exactly what moves he's going to do. Doesn't bother me.

Doesn't take away from the performance, but I'm saying there's a bit of an Austin Powers effect where it's like, your uncle's done so many shitty impressions. Maybe.

To me, that's why it's good. I think it's still great. I love watching it. I can't wait for him to show up every time. I remember watching the movie in that first screening

and people just being like, what the fuck's he going to do? I know, I know. I agree. You're right, of course. And now we know everything. It doesn't mean the performance is less good. You've made your point.

Thank you. Yeah. He robs a bank. In IMAX. Which is crazy because it's a heavy camera. It's true. I mean, you've got to be agile, fast to rob a bank, and he's holding his IMAX camera over his shoulder. You got that in the movie

the Joker is also supposed to be the camera operator, right? It's clear. I think Nolan does a great job communicating that to the audience.

Much like Deadpool, Richard T. Joker knows he's in a movie. He does know he's in a movie. But he's so twisted. He doesn't want you to know that he knows.

Honestly, that is like, you know, like, think about that. That's an easy thing you could do with a Joker to fuck everything up. Yep. Anyway, not to say, Jared Leto didn't even do that.

He was just twisted. He's done it. Twisted. He does that. Yeah. Jared Leto. Yeah. He has an Oscar.

He does. An Academy Award. He does indeed. That's what he's got. So does Heath Ledger. Yeah. The only man arrogant enough to be like oh follow Heath Ledger

yeah yeah sure I'll do that it's a tough thing to do why would anyone say yes to that part it's a I mean why would anyone

who had an Oscar say yes to that part well Jared Leto's just like I'm Jared Leto I could do anything I get why I mean names Griffin Newman

would say yes to the Joker I would yeah and also it was kind of rude they didn't offer it to him but it is funny that Jared... Look, we're not here to discuss Jared Leto. But it is crazy that the whole publicity campaign was about how he's like,

I am the Joker. Yeah, you're right. We're not here to discuss Jared Leto. We should just Leto be. Oh, actually, we got a package. Thanks for talking over that, Ben. We got a package sent. Oh, what's in the package?

I don't know. Oh, God. What is this in here? It's rat cond know. Oh, God. Oh, my God. What is in here? It's rat condoms filled with dick blood. Damn it. Jared. Jared.

Jared. Rat condoms. Ridiculous. All right. Oh, God. The Joker. He's up to no good. It's a bad guy.

It's a bad guy. Rob's a bank, a mob bank, with all these guys dressed like clowns. That's a great sequence. People loved it. It's so good. The whole thing where he's like, I know why they call him the Joker.

I love that shit. It's so cheesy, but it totally works. The IMAX cameras are notoriously loud. It's very hard to get usable dialogue recording. So it's good to have people's lips not moving? Is that what you're saying? In this movie, most of the IMAX sequences are either action sequences or establishing shots. And this is one of the full long sequences with a lot of dialogue that's also IMAX,

and they're all wearing masks, and there is this weird heightened, like all of the Joker thugs are clearly revoiced later in ADR. Their voices are a little disconnected. It makes it feel a little Batman the Animated Series in a way I like. I like it too, and I like the way they talk.

Because they're all very like, hey, I hear this guy. Hey, this Joker guy's crazy. Yeah, they say his name's Richard orard or something his middle name is tiberius the t stands for trouble they could have been a little more clowny like they had the mass of course but i like when this henchman have the whole gear like all you mean like the joel schumacher type where it's like where he's like mr he's like Mr. Freeze is like all of my henchmen have to wear like

snow suits. They're all cold. It's like in his rider. And they're also ice skating their way through the bank. He's like I can only rob like ice skating galas. Frozen banks. Mr. Freeze's

top thug wakes up at 5 o'clock in the morning and his wife's like, honey, why are you so up so early? Don't you have to be there until 9? He's like, yeah, but I gotta paint my entire body blue. I'm a non-frozen man and my boss will only keep me on payroll if I apply sparkly blue makeup to my

entire body. The Iceman cometh. Remember when he says that? Yeah. Alright. He says that? Yeah. All right. He says that when he's fucking Robin. We're one scene into The Dark Knight, which is a two hour and 20 minute movie. Just FYI. Sorry, two hour and 32 minute movie.

Listen, if we do Christopher Nolan, our Dark Knight episode will be so huge, we can't miss. Let's just do it and be legends. Unquestionably going to be our most listened to episode ever best reviewed the joker robs the bank so it's just full names no fuck off he kills everyone richard t joker yeah thank you god uh i can't believe i'm going on with that bit richard t joker robs the bank. Everyone kills each other. It's a little Rube Goldberg machine.

I kill the bank driver. The bank driver. Jesus Christ. The bus driver. Right. I'm done. But how many times in this movie alone, let alone in Inception, is it this where there's this elaborate scheme that when you think about it for one second, you're like, well,

wait a second. They'd have to be so precisely organized. Like there's no way this could happen. There's one of them in particular in this movie. Which one? I'll get to it when we get to it. But I think with the Joker, it kind of works because it makes him a little bit mystical.

I mean, he's a force of nature thing. A, he's a showman. B, he's, he's an agent of chaos. and he studies chaos i mean i like the idea that he's kind of so attuned to human behavior that he can kind of anticipate how people are going to react anyway he has he robs the mob bank william fichtner's mad about it all the mob money is in that one bank.

Uh, right. He steers away into a line of buses. And what's, one of my favorite shots in the movie, I think it's just really good visual storytelling. How's he going to get away? You see this bus pull out covered in rubble. Oh, he's timed it perfectly. So all the buses from the local schools are all going at the same time. And the cop cars are moving in the opposite direction trying to catch him.

Yeah. And it's like, this is... It's a cute shot, but it's a good cute shot. It's cute, but it's also like they had to block off a whole street in Chicago. They had to have 10 school buses and 10 police cars and all these extras. For sure. And it's a perfect, like, encapsulation of how Nolan weaponizes his blank check status. To be like, what I'm going to do is shut down a street, do this one shot that's really expensive,

that will take, like like hours to reset but i'm gonna do it because i think this one shot speaks volume and i'm gonna shoot it on an imax camera yeah like that's why nolan movies are so expensive is because he takes his time and is just like i'm gonna do a day where we only can get one shot successfully right so in this world, the Batman fights crime. Bartman, for sure. He's a man dressed as a bat. He is. And he likes to strike a fear into the hearts of criminals

throughout Gotham City. His signal is in the sky. And you see some criminals are doing criminal business. And one of them's like, Batman is a Batman in a round. And one guy's like, I don't doing criminal business and one of them's like I hate this Batman this is a Batman in a round. And one guy's like

I don't think so tonight. And the guy's like come on we have more luck hitting the lotto. Hitting the the lotto. Gotham lotto.

Ben's turning me down. Remember that line? I mean like as you said did you say the power ball? I forget what it is. Sure. But this is an example

of the movie being like we know you all know who Batman is, even if you haven't seen Batman Begins. You cut over to the cops. You get it. You get who Batman is, what he represents. You cut over to the cops, and one of the cops is like, hey, the paper says. The investigation is still ongoing. Right.

The guy's like, yeah, we got it. Yeah. And then the suspects are like, Elvis. Right. Abraham Lincoln. Get it. Yeah. They don't really care. And then we cut to an above are like Elvis. Right. Abraham Lincoln, get it. Yeah. They don't really care.

And then we cut to an above ground parking lot. Okay. And a truck pulls up and who comes out? Well, who is it? John C. Scarecrow. Great. John Q. Scarecrow. John C.

John C. Scarecrow comes out. C stands for crazy. Nice to let killian murphy yeah most superhero franchises kill off their villains at the end of each film and they never come back and this feels very comic booky where it's like no they're always still operating the scarecrow's around doing whatever garbage he's doing like he's not like hooked up with ross al ghul anymore so he's not that cool but he's like you know he's got his bag mask right and then he's taken down by the Batman

or is it Batman this guy's wearing hockey pants and then the real Batman comes takes them all down that's more like it

right that's him or whatever yeah Scarecrow's funny in that scene yeah he's a funny guy you know what the other scene that's funny is when he goes to Dangerfields and does the open mic and tries out his new material I get no respect

he does five minutes and he keeps on loosening that noose around his neck I tell you get no respect I'm shooting weaponized hallucinogens out of crowds and Batman comes and punches me in the face. I go,

I don't go to where you work and slap the batarang out of your hand. Jesus Christ. Getting the light. Oh, okay. And Batman, he's got a problem he learns.

He's got two problems he learns. Because this is the introduction of the Chechen as well. Yes. Who's this gangster whose bit is he likes dogs. He's got them dogs. And he says,

my dogs are hungry. And that's Batman's weakness. People don't know that Batman's kryptonite is dogs. He's just got allergies. These dogs really fuck with him. The Chechen is played by, who's he played by?

Who's he played by? Richie Koster. Oh, okay. No, it's not Glenn Close. Are you sure about that? I thought you were just pulling a hook. Richie Koster who's got a big role in Black Hat. Oh yeah. He's like kind of the chief villain for a while of that movie.

The other problem is Batman's suit doesn't move very well. That's the other problem. Which is a cool kind of meta hat tip. He can't look around. Because he gets up and he kind of moves his whole body to turn left and right. But that was a big point. This is the sixth major Warner Brothers Batman film. And he still has a molded rubber neck?

This is the first time they made a suit where he could turn his head independently of the rest of his body. So after this little escapade, he goes to Lucius Fox, played by Morgan Freeman. Now Mr. Wayne, and he shows him all the new tools, and he gives him an upgrade, and now he's got the new suit. He goes, does it protect against dogs? And it's like, okay, great.

Ha ha ha, funny. One comedy point. Yeah, it's a great scene, and everyone laughs. Everyone laughs so much. And now Batman has still not rebuilt Wayne Manor, so he's got a nice apartment. He's got a little basement that's sparse.

Yeah, it's very white. It's almost like Christopher Nolan designed it. Yes. This is what Christopher Nolan's rumpus room looks like. Yeah, it's very white. It's almost like Christopher Nolan designed it. Yes. This is what Christopher Nolan's rumpus room looks like. Yeah, exactly. His children's bedroom. When they go, Daddy, we want to play with toys,

he pushes a button and toys come out of the floorboards. Right. Christopher Nolan's a fun guy. So, Daddy. It's just setting up. There's a great shot where he takes off his shirt and you see all the bruises.

And it's like okay This movie doesn't take place That much later The Batman begins But it's already taking its toll Being Batman's tough It's hard to be Batman Hard to be a Batman

Yes it is I think that's the end of the movie Right? So you've got Batman? Yes You've got Commissioner Not Commissioner sorry

He's not a Commissioner Lieutenant Gordon Jim Gordon Who is the head of like Batman? Yes. You got Commissioner, not Commissioner, sorry. He's not a Commissioner. Lieutenant Gordon. Jim Gordon. Who is the head of like a special crime unit that interacts with Batman. Oh, this is a thing I like a lot about this movie

that other superhero movies wouldn't do and this gets to Nolan having these sort of loftier ambitions to try to make a real crime movie is how much time

it spends in this sort of criminal Ponzi scheme sort of thing going on. The Lao shit. Yeah. That it isn't just like a quick hand wave thing.

It's like there's like an hour of this movie that's really tied up into the intricacies of this money pot. So the idea is there's the mob and there's sort of like

three mobs. There's like Chechen mob whose dogs are hungry. Right. You gotian mob led by maroney who's played by eric roberts right pretty good i like him in this movie he's doing his thing yeah but he's good and then you've got like michael j white right gamble who's like an african-american mobster and like he's i don't know he's like barely in the movie so but like

he gets out are the three people at like the mob table. Right. When the mob has a mob meeting. And then there's Lao. And then there's Lao. He's the money guy. A glorified accountant. Who is an accountant from Hong Kong. He's trying to pull a maid off on them. Who is going to take their money.

Yeah. Because it's being tracked by Gordon and Batman. Right. And their bank was robbed. And their bank was robbed. And he's going to pool it in Hong Kong where it can't be touched. Sure. By American officials. Yeah. And he's going to pool it in Hong Kong where it can't be touched

by American officials. And he'll collect the interest. And so the Joker comes in to this room in his first real introduction. Good piece of acting. This is the scene, I think, where we were all just losing it. I mean, the pencil thing. There's just so much shit

going on in this performance. It's true, because he does all the stuff. That's what I'm talking about the unexpected thing. I know. He switches to all these different – because sometimes he sounds southern. Sometimes he sounds midwester. And there's the thing where the guy is like – he's crazy and he's like, not. I'm not crazy. That's my favorite moment.

It's a great moment. The mouth work I love. All the mouth movement and sounds he's making are so well and the idea is that those scars are as prominent in the inside of his cheek so he's constantly kind of feeling them but that crazy thing I love that like as much as he's presented as this like you know ne'er-do-well devil may care like he just loves chaos thing it's like oh that's the one moment in the entire film you see this bit of vulnerability in him which is like he doesn't want to be thought of as crazy no and he's he's not right he's not like a sideshow act to these or he doesn't want to be like he these people are so

beneath him in his opinion i love also when he refers to lau as the television yeah yeah like if you listen to the television's plan like that yeah Yeah. Um, but, uh, so he comes in and he says, I'll kill the Batman for you. Right. Cause he's ruining your business. That's what's going on. Let's say, let's turn back the clocks.

Everything used to be okay. Now you've got the Batman. I can kill him for you. And they're like, in exchange for what he says, half, they all laugh at him, but then he leaves with his grenades.

Right. But, uh, but good at something, never do it for free. Right. And then he has that final moment where he goes, here's my card. And he very casually holds up the playing card, the Joker card. Yes.

Without overselling it like a joke. Right. And I remember like. No, he kind of goes like very, he's like, here's my card. Right. Yeah. But he says it as if it's not unusual. Right.

As if like, here's my card. An actual business card that they could reach him not unusual right as if like here's my actual business card that they could reach him at and i remember like at that moment in this screening it was like essentially everyone applauded him well because also he's done we should say he'd done the pencil thing where gamble's like get that guy and he's like i'm gonna how about a magic trick right but this scene's just a fucking tour de force and at the end of it it was like he had just done like a broadway like show stopping number it was like the range of what he does within this one four minute section. The thing with the pencil is if it was just that he puts the pencil down and then smashes the guy's head into it and you're like, oh, my God, a shocking bit of violence. Yeah, that would be effective.

Right. But it works because he's then he goes like it's gone. Like he's immediately shifts into very silly mode. Right. it's gone. Like he's immediately shifts into very silly mode. Right. And one thing about this movie that I think is fascinating is that it is not violent at all.

Like in terms of like, there's almost no blood or gore until two face, which is of course this crazy gory special. Well, there's also that scene. He just, there's no violence. It's all in your head.

Like whatever it is, he does. And there's the moment later, skipping ahead a little bit, where he, it is implied, does the mouth scars on Gamble. Right, right, right, right, right. And they, it's so. Which is a creepy scene. Creepy.

I mean, if I was showing my kid that scene, it would freak them out even though you don't see him. But he's holding the knife to his face the whole fucking time. And then, is it Gamble or is it one of Gamble's men? I believe it's Gamble. I think it's Gamble himself. And then he does the aggressive expansion thing to Gamble or is it one of Gamble's men? I believe it's Gamble. I think it's Gamble himself and then he does the aggressive expansion

thing to Gamble's two guys. He's holding the knife to his head and then there's the moment where there's like the shock like and the score to imply that he's now cut his face. Yes. But they just cut and he's let go of Gamble. There's no blood anywhere. Like you don't see any kind of contact between the knife

and the flash. No, it's all implied. It's all in your head. Yep. Um, so Joker has now made himself. And Gordon says, when, when Batman sort of stops,

I'm taking him that serious. Right. Gordon's like this Joker guy. And he's like, don't fucking talk to me about this joke. He's like, I know I'll keep an eye on it. Like,

what am I supposed to do about the joke? Guys wearing dumb things on their faces are my specialty. I can beat them up in my sleep. Don't worry about it. Right. And he meets Dent on the rooftop. Meets Dent on the rooftop. It's Dent and Gordon.

The three of them are up on the rooftop. Which is a shot I love. It's circling around the three of them. And immediately Dent and Gordon are arguing. Because Dent's like, you cops are corrupt and I don't trust you. I know you're a good cop, but your guys are bad. And Gordon's

like, you're the leak. You're the one who's fucking everything up. Batman's not talking. He just disappears. And they're kind of ignoring him. He only butts in the conversation at the end of it, but it speaks to the larger concept of the movie, which is just like, what if this movie was worked on its own as just like a depiction of a city and its politics and it's like a Rico case.

And then also Batman's in it. Well, great. Cause that man's just to the side of the shot thing. It's like, they're like, well, we were trying to get these guys cold by tracking the money.

Right. And, but Lau has escaped with the money. So Batman's job in that conversation, they're just like, can you get Lau? Like, yeah,

like he's in Hong Kong. We can't get him. Yeah. And Batman's like, I'll look into it. So he gets the new suit. His voice is quite low. Yeah.

In this one, it gets really Baldwin. Really? He goes full Baldwin. It's, it's, it's, it's a lot.

Uh-huh. What do you think I am? Lemon, a farmer. It's a classic Lemon. Uh-huh. What do you think I am, lemon? A farmer. It's a classic line. Yeah. So he puts together this awesome Batman sequence where he investigates sky hooking or whatever the fuck it's called.

He can jump out of a plane. There's a plane that goes by. Batman shoots out this like floating balloon. Right right and the plane like catches the floating balloon yeah and then sucks them in it's super cool it's super cool but no yeah the next thing that happens is batman's like well i'm not gonna worry about the joker right now i'm just gonna get lau right and he and alfred and lucius cook up this whole hong kong caper right so. Because you got Lucius going to the boardroom. Right. The fake phones.

The fake phones. And Alfred's on a yacht. With Russian dancers. That's the other thing that happens. With the ballerinas. He has the night where he runs into Rachel Dawes. Right. You also have Rachel Dawes.

Now played by Maggie Gyllenhaal. Now played by Maggie Gyllenhaal. Now I'm going to say something. I have no idea if you agree with me. Maggie Gyllenhaal is pretty bad in this movie. I think she's pretty hit and miss. Hit and miss. That's probably a better going to say something. I have no idea if you agree with me. Maggie Gyllenhaal is pretty bad in this movie. I think she's pretty hit and miss. Some scenes I think she's right in the pocket. Some scenes I think she's totally off. I think Katie Holmes is better

than Maggie Gyllenhaal. I kind of agree with you even though Maggie Gyllenhaal is sort of better casting for this role. I know. Like physically she fits. She's closer to Christian Bale in age. Her first scene is rough. Yes. Where she's like oh Jim's a friend actually. Where she's trying to Christian Bale her first scene is rough yes where she's like oh Jim's a friend actually where she's

trying to make the exposition sound natural and it's just like she's got some scenes where she feels like she's fighting at the same level everyone else in the cast and some scenes where it feels like she's like well I'm in a comic book movie it doesn't really matter yeah do you know what I'm saying some scenes it feels like she's being a little

I'm all over the place on her as an actress because I love her in some movies. Same here. I really dislike her performance in Crazy Heart, which got her an Oscar nomination. That character's also a terrible character. It's weird that she got nominated for that. I think it was kind of like a, hey,

you've been doing some good work. You've been around. We like you. Everyone's worked with you. You know what I think she's really good in? Weirdly? World Trade Center. I've never seen World Trade Center. She's the one. Her and Michael Peña play husband and wife in that movie.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the two of them are really fucking good in it. And the rest of the movie is kind of like a fart. But she's got a couple scenes in that movie that are pretty incredible, playing what is a very stock kind of Oscar movie archetype of the suffering wife, you know? Yes. Sure. She's really good in it, though.

I really like her in Sherry Baby. Yeah. I like her in, I'm trying to think of other things. I don't know. She hasn't done a lot of movies. I like her in- She, like, stopped doing movies now that I'm looking at it. She's in this The Deuce, youuce, the TV show that's coming out.

But she hasn't made a movie since 2014. What was that one? Frank. Oh, right. Which she's fine in. She's pretty good in that, actually. I wasn't a huge fan of that. Yeah, I'm not either.

And then before that, White House Down. I forgot that she's in that. She's so good in that. Yeah, she rules in that. Yeah, she's awesome in that movie. It is the thing, though. I think Katie Holmes felt like she had a lot more to prove being in this type of movie, so she really upped her game. She's not terrific in that. Yeah, she's awesome in that movie. It is the thing, though. I think Katie Holmes felt like she had a lot more to prove being in this type of movie, so she really upped her game.

She's not terrific in Batman because she's fine. But Maggie Joan Hall feels like it's slacking off in certain scenes. Yeah, there's a couple scenes that kind of just set my teeth on edge. Agreed, but you innately buy her more as a DA. You innately buy her more as a contemporary of Christian Bale. She's a better piece of casting but a less effective performance. I agree with this.

Anyway. A couple scenes I think she's really on. She also unfortunately unlike in Batman Begins plays the classic Nolan role of ghost lady. That's the thing. If she had played Rachel Dawes in the first movie. Right. Might work better. It might work better but in this it's like they

now here's a new actress and you're setting her up just to die. Yeah. It's hard to like buy a new person playing this character and then immediately have her be like the emotional justification for the collapse. And you know it. You know it. You know it. You know it. You know it going in.

Yeah. She's doomed. She's doomed. So Rachel is now who was dating an ADA in the last movie. P.S. Yeah. Now she's dating the DA. Yeah.

Played by Aaron Eckhart. Right. I Frankenstein himself. I Frankenstein Right. I Frankenstein himself. I Frankenstein Dent. I Frankenstein. Frankenstein I Dent. Harvey Dent. But they have this scene

where Bruce Wayne's out with his Russian with the prima ballerina of the Russian and they run into each other. One of them walks by the other person's table and they sit down

and they have this talk and it feels like it's more like also he's big footing them because it's like Harvey's like I've had to wait three weeks for this reservation i'm really excited bruce is like hey asshole what's up you little shithead i'm just popping i'm gonna get a table next year and aaron yeah harvey's like oh we can't do that and he's like i think we should be able to i own the place it's maybe bill's best scene in the movie though because he has the shift

where he's kind of territorial with this woman who he's obviously been in love with his entire life, who won't date him because he's Batman. And he's sort of testing him and like big footing him. And then there's the moment where he starts to like, kind of fall in love with Dent and how he's talking about everything. He's actually into it. But of course he can't totally drop the mask of Bruce Wayne. And that's why he does this whole fundraiser thing of like,

trust me, one fundraiser with my friends, you'll never have to work again. Right. But also he, he prickles a little bit at whole fundraiser thing of like, trust me, one fundraiser with my friends, you'll never have to work again. Right. But also he, he prickles a little bit at being at where he's like, it's Wayne Manor on city limits. And he's like,

yeah, yeah. Shouldn't you know? Yeah. It's in Gotham. Yeah. It's in the glades. I think he says the palisades.

Yes. I'm trying to find the name of the, of the cream of Valerie. I think it's Beatrice Rosen plays her. I love that. She immediately is like, like just weighing in on like the debate of the day, the bad,

like she's like this Batman, he makes a fool of you, you know, Harvey Dent, you are hero, you know? And he's like, Oh,

Batman might be okay then. She's like, ah, perhaps she holds up the paper. Maybe you are the Cape. It's a great moment. Cause you're like, Aaron Eckhart does have Batman shin.

I also just like, you can see that chin in a fucking cow. But I just like that she gets to do some expositional dialogue. Right. I know it's such a stupid thing. It sets up this dynamic where every time Bruce comes across Rachel and Dent, Rachel like rolls her eyes and is like, oh, Bruce. And then Dent rolls his eyes and is like, yeah, Bruce. And she's like, wait, but you don't get him.

She's rolling her eyes because she knows it's a put-on. And then Dent's rolling his eyes because he's buying it at face value. And then she has to correct him and be like, he's actually a good guy. I can't explain to you why I'm so frustrated right now. So that sort of happens when they go to the ballet and it's closed down because Wayne has

constructed this alibi that he's out fucking all these ballet dancers in order to skyhook over to Lau's kingdom, his building. Yeah, he does the skyhook. He does it, and it's IMAX, and it's great. Love that scene. Although I do feel like the action in that scene and then later in the climactic scene,

again, we hear this complaint. He's not good at hand-to-hand combat. Nolan's not particularly good at the one-on-one combat. He we hear this complaint. He's not good at hand to hand combat. Nolan's not particularly good at the one on one combat. He's good at vehicles. He's good at large landscapes. Anytime Batman's flying or standing on a rooftop the second he gets in close it's bad. But when he gets that sky hook and he zips out and then the score

kicks up you know. Yeah. Great. It still is like just watching it on a TV nine years later anytime it cuts one of those IMAX shots you you're like, this is truly fucking striking. Just the depth and clarity of the image is unbelievable. Of course, you know, with every movie post this, he's only doing more IMAX. Dunkirk is like almost entirely, right? Well, I think he's just, this is his thing.

Because like the whole thing about IMAX has always been like you can't, because the cameras are so big, you can't shoot IMAX. And he's always been like, they shot a fucking Everest movie on IMAX cameras. They can get it up there. They can shoot my thing. And the other thing is, there used to be a length limit. IMAX platters were so big,

IMAX movies could only be over a certain length. So when Attack of the Clones was transferred into IMAX, they had to cut those 20 minutes of romance scenes out of it. And he has boosted IMAX profits so much that he's like, figure out how to get more platters. Figure out how to let me make longer IMAX movies. And they've done it. He says jump and they do.

They say how high. And then they watch how high. Men. Method men and red men. They're the stars of how high. True. How high are they? Men. Very. Method and red. men. They're the stars of How High. True. How high are they? Men. Very. Method and red.

Yes. Men, comma, red and math. So. You know who directed How High, right? Bob Dylan's son. He comes back to Gotham. What's his name again? Jesse Dylan.

Right. No, it's Jacob. I'm proud of my son. He directed How High. Jacob Dylan's another son, right? Yeah, he's the wallflowers. Yeah, right. I'm also proud of Jacob.

Who's this? He covered Heroes for the Godzilla soundtrack. That's my Bob Dylan dad impression. I love it. The Joker, the Joker. Richard T. Joker, go on. Reveals himself in Gotham. Starts kidnapping. Is that when he first kidnaps the fake Batman? the Joker Richard T. Joker go on reveals himself in Gotham starts kidnapping

is that when he first kidnaps the maybe he kidnaps the fake Batman starting tonight people will die on the man of my work releases the torture video and he says right

I'm gonna start killing people very scary good camera work yes Heath did it himself that became part of the legend of this movie and there's the part where he drops into

the deeper guttural voice look at me and it's very scary and you go oh maybe I shouldn't be laughing at this Joker maybe I should be trembling trembling oh we forgot that awesome scene where uh where harvey punches the guy and steals the gun that's a real like hurrah scene but i agree it's a little bit of that it's fine yeah i wish it was just because this movie's so committed

to the realism like that there might be a little bit more of like, Jesus fucking Christ! He pointed a gun at you and pulled the trigger! He deconstructs the gun with one hand and goes like, oh, 60 millimeter carbon fiber? I recommend you buy American.

Yeah, okay. Get the fuck off of me, man. Denty. Dent would be like declared king of Gotham if he did something that cool. Yeah. All right.

So you need these. Here are the people you need. You need a judge. There's like a nice judge. But not the judge. No, no, not the judge. Bob Duhal is not in this movie. What are we up to, three hours?

David just looked at the clock. The minute you mentioned the judge, I was like, oh, God. You need Police Commissioner Loeb. He's back. He's back. He's in it. He actually has a laugh line when he gets out the booze. You got Mayor Batman Well. Police Commissioner Loeb. He's back. He's back. He's in it. He actually has a laugh line when he gets out the booze.

You got Mayor Batman Well. And then you got Mayor Batman Well from The Tick. You got Mayor Richard Alpert from Lost. Nestor Carbonell as Anthony Garcia, the mayor of Gotham. Yes. And I guess the idea of him is he's like,

he's kind of the mayor for like a hip new Gotham. You know? Because he's kind of like, hey, crime a hip new gotham you know because he's kind of like hey crime's down things are great yeah everyone else is like still shitty he's like no no it's nice got a little edge um so is this yeah now i'm trying to remember the exact timeline of this movie i guess it's just just the Joker starts killing people. Yeah, and this case is going on. They're trying to put together the Rico case,

which I think is Gyllenhaal's best scene is when she's interrogating. Gyllenhaal? Really? Is it Gyllenhaal? Well, no, but Jake is Gyllenhaal, and she's Gyllenhaal, right? I think she's really good, and then when she goes back to them, and she's like, Rico case, I got it, I'm on it. You buy her being a real pro. Agreed.

Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. And when's the fund, the fundraiser is right in this part. Right around here. Yeah. So the Joker is this lingering threat.

He wants Batman to unmask himself. He's like, Batman is a false idol. He's not the solution. He's the problem. He's made things worse. Your escalation starting tonight

people will die I'm a man of my word if he doesn't reveal himself I'm gonna start killing people right but then you have like we should say you've got like

the scene where he kills Gamble and he does his first scars monologue right and then there's the big fundraiser scene where he shows up with a gun

and some henchmen and he takes Rachel and tosses her out a window. Right, and does his alternate scar monologue. And does his second scar monologue. That's the scene that Patrick Leahy is in. Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont, who loves Batman, is in every Batman movie. Also,

Heath Ledger's in that scene. True, he plays the Joker. Richard T? Uh-huh. Yeah, I mean it's a really good basic storytelling trick of just like oh if you have him offer two different stories then you can't believe anything he says no it's

it's a very nice and also it lets Heath Ledger monologue which he's good at there's that great anecdote about when Gene Wilder signed on to do Willy Wonka he demanded that he have that character introduction where he walks out hobbling and then falls over, does the somersault and drops the cane. Because he said, if I do that in my introduction, the audience will never know whether to believe me or not. Right.

Which works really well for that movie. You never know if Wonka's lying, if he's friendly, if he's villainous. And the Joker, it's the same thing where you just like don't fucking know. You don't fucking know. Right. You don't know. Right. Because the first one, it's like one of the monologues is about first one, or like one of the monologues is about his wife.

Right. One of the monologues is about his father. I think that's it, right? Because the third one, he gets cut off. Yes. And that's sort of in the tradition of that character in the comic books too, right? Where it's always sort of been like changed

and different sort of backstories. Except sometimes they do origins for him, but then they're kind of like, forget it. They usually negate them or they go, maybe there were two of them. Because the killing joke is an origin story for him. He then they're kind of like, forget it. They usually negate them or they go, maybe there were two of them. Because the killing joke is an origin story for him. He's a shitty stand-up comedian. Right.

And it's like, one bad day could make anyone crazy. He's working the mics with Scarecrow. Exactly. He's at the comedy store working on his five. Giving his time back to the room. So that scene is like your first Batman-Joker fight. Yeah. But it's brief.

It's brief. And Rachel's thrown out and he jumps after her and that gives the Joker an idea. Ooh, he likes Rachel. Exactly. Maybe he dent. And then at the same time, he's like during all of this, he's killing the commissioner who he kills with like poison drink. Yes. Whiskey.

The judge puts her in bad car. The judge goes in bad car and is blown up with like playing cards. Right. And I like that though. There's still the like the Joker gimmick with every murder where it's like, oh, like, you know, but like it's not like in previous movies

or cartoons where it's like everybody's, you know, gets their head trapped in a fish or what, you know, like the Joker has a big bit that he's doing. In this one, he's just a branding expert. Yes. He's a brand ambassador. He is a brand ambassador. It's weird in the middle of the movie how he just stops and goes like, why can't I get a mattress delivered to me in a box the size of a mini fridge? Using my promo code Joker.

Oh my God. We're going to be here all day. Oh my God. And then he tries to kill, at the funeral for the commissioner. Yeah. He tries to kill the mayor. This week's meals include. I swear to God, shut up.

Sage risotto. Everyone is sick of the bit about fucking Adderall. No one cares. We've done it so many times. Who are your guys? Lock the gates. Oh, that's great. That never gets old.

What's the show called again? This show? No, the Marin show. Blank Check with Mark and Marin. Shut up. It's called WTF. No. The Glow.

Don't worry. Fifth time's the charm. He shoots the mayor at the funeral, but Gordon takes the bullet. He's dead. Now, here's my biggest logic gap in the funeral, but Gordon takes the bullet. He's dead. Now, here's my biggest logic gap in the movie, okay? Dead. He'll never come back. Right.

Even though there are a lot of scenes in the trailer of him. Yeah, later. Right. I remember seeing it in theaters and being like, did they just cut out all of Gordon's stuff? No, come on. You didn't think he was dead. I thought he was dead. I thought he was dead.

Did you cry? No, but he is one of my best friends. There's an earlier part in the movie. What's his name? Lucius Fox asked Batman about, I saw this changed in the things. And he goes, Lucius, look, I'm playing this one pretty close to the chest. Which is not the term. The term is

close to the vest. He's not wearing hockey vest. It tracks, but it's not exactly what the term is, right? The more popular version. Some podcast recently went on about this, maybe Hollywood Handbook. Then when Gordon later reveals that he is not dead, Mayor Batman Wells says, wow, Gordon, you do play this stuff close to the chest. Yeah.

Even though he had never said that earlier in the movie, it's Batman who says it to Lucius Fox. Yeah, but- It's a callback from a different character saying it to a different person. So that's your biggest logic hole in the movie? No, the biggest logic hole is the Gordon plan makes no sense. The Gordon fake death makes no sense. Who knows about it?

What's he doing? How's he orchestrating this? The Gordon fake death is kind of like the... It's like that Arrested Development joke about how there's two coolers. Yeah. And he's like, we'll leave one cooler behind and take the real cooler. And he's like,

but she's going to know because I'm not going to be there. Right. And he's like, but they'll be like, well, you know, she'll be confused. And he's like,

it's like one second. The way the movie plays it, everyone seems to believe he's actually dead. It seems like no one knows that he's faking his death. Because you have the scene where they deliver the news

to his family. Right. And his wife is like, fuck you, Batman! Or whatever. I can't even remember who she yells at, you know. But, but.

She yells at Batman. Were you guys surprised? That he comes back to life? Yeah. Yeah, mostly because I was like. I remember my audience clapping. Yeah, I think mine did too. I think all the old British ladies

went, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho. Well, then I rest my case. Yeah, it just. I didn't know this was your case. Yeah. DA. Yeah. DA? Yeah. DA Hosley?

Uh-huh. I just spent the rest of the movie being like, wait, how the fuck did he pull that off? Why do you have to put his wife and kids through all that? It just, it doesn't really make sense. He told you why. He plays it close to the chest. Well, he didn't tell me that.

Batman told that to Lucius Fox. But they decided upon that when they had made the plan. Silence, he didn't tell me that. Batman told that to Lucius Fox. But they decided upon that when they had made the plan. Silence. I demand silence. David, David, David. Yes? Why so serious?

So, because this is all leading up to, because now actually I'm trying to think about how it's supposed to play out. Yeah. Because, right, Dent reveals that he is Batman. Yeah at a press conference right right because because yeah if batman isn't revealed yeah the idea is i'll keep killing people batman is revealed

rachel's like the next target it's actually start happening they got the intel that it's going to be rachel so dent is like i'm the batman and bruce is at bruce is ready to do it ready to do it so guilty about g do it he's so guilty about Gordon dying I guess that's why Nolan has it and he has also confessed to Rachel at this point

because Dent tells her Dent tells her you're the next target she goes I need to go somewhere safe I'm gonna go to Bruce's house and he goes

don't I can't wait to hang out with Bruce trust me Bruce Wayne is the safest man to be with in Gotham City right now trust me she goes to Bruce and Bruce is like you, Bruce Wayne is the safest man to be with in Gotham City right now. Trust me. She goes to Bruce, and Bruce is like, you told me if I, the day I stop being Batman, we can bone.

We can take it to Sausage Town. Right, exactly. Sausage party. I can give you a little bit of the salam. Griffin's too into this. Griffin's like so delighted. Coffee's going to be bagel the day that I stop being Batman am I right?

yeah are you on Raya yet? no I still haven't approved I'm verified on every social media platform I'm the star of a fucking TV show about to be fucking multiple action figures and I can't get on Raya the dating app for famos that no one's supposed to talk about

because the entire currency is that it's secret. Well, this ain't going to help your cause. Maybe. I'm going to neg Raya into accepting me. It's a good call. You're not on it? No, I'm not. I've been waitlisted for a year. Are you on it, Ben? Yeah. Get out of here! Excuse me!

He's our finest film critic. Poet laureate of America. You want to hear how bad it's gotten? A good friend of mine has now recently been hired to the board of approvals for Raya, and even he can't get me approved. Who? I don't know.

Maybe let's bleep that out because I don't know if you... Bleep it out. I don't want people sliding into his DMs begging him. And it's cooler when it's bleeped out because then no one will know who it is. Exactly. And it's like, oh my God. But he went to Ryan and was like, hey, my friend Griffin, he's on a TV show. Yeah, he's an actor, you know, famous. And then I was like, they still haven't accepted me.

He's like, they still haven't accepted you? Jesus. They probably just don't care about you. I hear they hate Jews. I think that's what's going on. Well said. So Dent is taken into custody. Correct.

But as this convoy is driving him across town, guess who should appear? Ricky T-Jokes. This is, it was the centerpiece of the trailers. The truck flip. Vehicles. They talked about it. Nolan's forte.

Like he'd fucking turned lead into gold. It is great. I love the truck. What's the business that the truck is? Do you notice that it says slaughter? Yeah. It's like a birthday party clown. It's supposed to say laughter is the best medicine

or whatever, right? But it says slaughter. A party clown business needs a semi-truck? Yeah, it's like an 18-wheeler. Yeah. Well, look, Ben, Ben, to be fair, for decades, you've had multiple clowns crammed into too small a vehicle.

Oh, shit. What if? And this company very progressively said, One clown? One clown, give them a whole 18-wheeler. That was their whole operation. Okay, that makes more sense. Benjamin J. Hosley.

Is your middle name J? I have no idea what your middle name is. My middle name is McCormick. Great. Benjamin M. Hosley. Yeah. You have a line that you like from this scene. Oh, yeah.

If you want to unfold your piece of paper. He wrote this down verbatim while watching the movie. Yeah, so the SWAT driver, who's very, it's a good moment of comic relief. Played by Nicky Cat. Yep. He's like, what is that? A rocket launcher? But it's his delivery of his fun. And I had suggested that Griffin say, what is that? A rocket launcher? But it's his delivery of his fun.

And I had suggested that Griffin say, what is that? A podcast? So that's what I wrote down here. Very identifiable. If I had said that, everyone would have known which line that is. Okay. Now that you point that out. Rocket launcher is the big word.

I think he says the bazooka. What if it was rocket podcast? That might have worked. Or podcast launcher? Podcast launcher. And as I replied to Ben, I love the line where he's like, that's not good. And then the helicopter crashes. And he goes, well, that's not good.

You got these two SWAT guys. One guy's face is fully covered. The other guy is Nicky Cat. Son's mustache. Not playing the same character from Insomnia. He's a master of disguise. Master of disguise. Well, maybe this character from Insomnia shaved his mustache. No, because as you said, this is a master of disguise, which means he's part of the Disguisey family line. Oh, I see.

His name's Almondo Disguisey. Get the fuck out of here and never come back. Walk into the traffic. What, you think I'm not turtley enough for the turtle club? Oh, boy. The other SWAT guy's not talking. Nicky Cat's talking too much. What's going on?

Oh, it's Jim Gordon. Uh-huh. He played this one close to the chest. Yeah. Faked his death. Great, great chase sequence. They give chase. The Tumbler chasing after.

The armored SWAT vehicle chasing after. The Joker. Everyone's chasing after everyone. Joker's trying to kill. It's great. It's great. And then the Tumbler. The Batpod.

I mean, like. It's so good. It's great. It's great. And then the Batpod. The Batpod. I mean, like... It's so good. It's good. It's good. Like, you remember, like, the fact that the Batpod just doing a thing, like, going up the wall

and then he flips around and then it goes the other way. Yeah. Like, that got, like, a goddamn standing ovation. Yeah, and once again, I saw a theater full of old British women

and it got applause breaks. I mean, it's so cool. It played like it was a Merchant Ivory movie. They were flipping out. It's got big tires. Yeah. You know, the one I love is when he pulls out of that underground shopping mall, and the tire starts moving horizontally rather than vertically for the turns.

I love that. It's just a cool vehicle. The moment where it turns into the Batpod where it's shaking it's so awesome and then it goes like goodbye yeah and then it explodes the two kids fire the guns with their fingers

it's fun it's a fun movie this is the height of the movie this is the movie just like it's so exciting and what I love is this like movie 2 now

or movie 1 we're at the end of movie 2 okay I guess it's two movies really because this is the end of movie 1 really yeah I think the movies are kind of interwo because this is the end of movie one, really. Yeah, I think the movies are kind of interwoven. No, of course they are.

I'm not really. But it's the end of the Joker section of the movie. Correct. Sort of. That he's really running the table on. Exactly, because it's like the idea is the Joker kind of wants Batman to kill him. Well, look, let's call it what it is. The Joker in this movie is a troll. Yeah, it's true.

He's a head troll. That's what's going on. You know, the alt-right has adopted all these different pop culture figures as their, like, you know, sort of representations. But I feel like a lot of the negative aspects of culture today, whatever group you want to assign it to, of culture today yeah whatever gamer gate whatever group you want to assign it to is very seeped in like the the joker mentality of just like the only thing that that sucks is caring about something right you just got to like do it for the lulz fuck everything make fun of anyone who has any stance but he's just want to watch the world burn right we we as we said we were going to talk about that because that's become like the motto of a lot of annoying people in the world but but here's the thing like i like this

movie a lot i don't like it as much as most people but i like it a lot but ever since trump has gotten elected that line like rings in my head every single day some men just won't watch the world burn and there's how he says it perfectly. There's the line when Alfred is trying to explain to Bruce how the Joker works. He's talking about the bandit. But even before that when he says you back them into a corner

they turn to something they don't understand. And it's like that's how everyone talks about the GOP right now is they elected this guy who they thought they could control. I don't want to talk about that show. I'm moving it past care. It is crazy how much more resonant this movie is. You're right, but I hate comparing fucking politics that affects people's lives

to movies and we're just moving straight past it. We don't do it a lot. We're moving past it. We don't do it a lot. You got your point out? It's fine. I want to move past it. Please, I'm begging you. It's not even that I think it's a comparison. It's that I think this movie actually kind of started a lot. Well, I mean. I mean i think a lot of dumb boys who want to be like the joker people are dumb the joker became this figure of like cool

you know yeah careless i know just live your life complete power you're i mean but except it's like vine accounts of people vaping and being like i'm like the joker right but also like you know you look at how like anonymous was like latching on to v uh for vendetta right and it was like oh it's this guy who's like fighting for freedom and then just became the joker where it's like the only thing you're fighting against is everything yeah he's like it like there's no x then i choose y right right you just got to do the opposite. But I also think within the world of Batman, it's so delightful to Joker, the idea that in dying, the Batman's going to kill him. And then everyone's going to be like, some people will be like, well, I think it's good that the Batman killed Joker.

He loves that. He's delighted by the idea that his legacy is going to be people being like, I think it's good to just kill people. Much like some presidents currently in office, the Joker's power comes from people talking about the Joker. For sure. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad. It doesn't matter if it ends up like a death. He likes hats. He loves getting an hat. He's the best villain.

He really is. I know, he's great. It's so good. He's such a shithead. Such a strong, fucking great goddamn character. I do love that scene where the Joker is awake at 4 o'clock in the morning, tweeting at all of his haters, and his assistant comes in and goes, Joker, we have to take your phone away from you. LOL, cuck. LOL, snowflake.

Sad. No. Why so serious? Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. Richard T. Joker Joker in a great moment for Heath Ledger yeah is standing there

at the road Batman's driving towards him truck's flipped over this is my favorite Ledger moment is the truck flips over and there's the long

shot unbroken of him slowly crawling out he's so funny he's so physically funny in that I mean all his scenes but yes

and then he sort of skips a little bit over yeah and he's like there's just so much good physical come on hit me batman doesn't kill him right you miss me rolls off the bike and then my favorite bit is when he he's like what i'm gonna try to take his head mask off and it zaps him yeah and he's so delighted by that because it's what he expected but it it's still funny that he designed a goddamn shot collar into his suit. I really think it communicates so much of that moment because he's just like, like, he's so amused by it.

But he also likes that someone else is operating on the same level as a ticket. He's taking all this bullshit so seriously. They're both branding experts. Because Joker doesn't care who Batman is. Joker's not a person. Yeah. He doesn't. It's not like he's like, if I know who it is, Batman is. Joker's not a person. Yeah. It's not like he's like, if I know who it is, then I'll be able to exploit him. Right.

He's just amused at the idea of everyone knowing who it is. It's like you say, he's a big troll. He's a big troll. He gets arrested. Yes. And this is maybe, this is the most common. And of course, right, Gordon's there. And he's like, we got you, you son of a bitch.

Yeah. Right? So he's alive. Unmasked, you do play it close to the chest. And I have no, again, like you said, I have no idea why Gordon really needs to be dead. I guess it's just to spur... No, I don't know. I don't know. Who knows? I do like

that he goes back to his family and you have the scene of his wife slapping him in the face. Yeah, and it's good, but you're right. I mean, Nolan wants this because he wants Gordon's family to be part of the end of the movie. Sure. Right. But it also is nice. I understand that it's there for plot machinations, but it also is nice to have the movie call him out for being a fucking dickhead.

That's a shitty thing to do to your wife. It's a shitty thing to do. Yeah. And he gets to wake his son up and it's like the moment that Bruce never got where his dad suddenly comes back to life. Right. But they arrest the Joker.

Did Batman save you? No, I saved him. Cool, cool, cool. Also, I play it close to the chest. He plays it very close to the chest. His son says that to him. And he's like, how do you know? But these have been three separate conversations.

Just the worst people. This is definitely a Joker. This is definitely a professor frustrated at his peak. It's Friday, guys. You know, it's late. I just want to go home. TGII. Thank God it is.

The Joker. I don't even know what I'm trying to say anymore. The Joker is arrested. He's a bad guy. Harvey is taken away. Rachel is taken away by cops. Correct. They're going gonna get taken off to their places to get like tied up joker knew what he was doing he wanted this all to happen and it's

again one of those classic nolan bits where the guy's like joker wanted to get arrested and you're like of course and then you're like huh he's playing like fucking 50,000 dimensional chess. Because he also employed a crazy person that he sewed a phone bomb into his stomach. Well, this is, I talked about in the last episode how I loved Batman Begins setting up this idea that all the inmates of Arkham Asylum had escaped and they're now going to become these supervillains. Right. And then this movie doesn't really do that, but what it does do is. They're just kind of the mentally ill people the Joker's like drawn into into his circle it's the guy at the the shooting who shoots uh the honor guard right and and this guy with the phone in his belly and his tum tum uh yeah he could have just made the

guy swallow the phone he didn't have to cut his tummy open no i mean there's that he loves knives he puts them in a circle he does no that's a different joker but he does have knives because there is that great line where he's like, no ID, no identity, like no marks, just knives and lint. That's like, that's what's on him.

That shot's great when they're lining up all the- All his weird little knives. Yeah. And he says how much he loves knives. Love them.

Because he can like get to know a person when you're killing him. All the little nuances, right? That's what he says, yeah. I know your friends better than you do.

And we should, yeah, because there is that scene where Dent interrogates the crazy guy and Batman is like, he's mentally ill, like you're not getting anything out of that guy. So then you have the Batman Joker scene, the interrogation scene.

Good cop, bad cop routine. That's a good scene. Not exactly. It's a good scene. Yeah, it's a a good scene and Ben was saying before we started recording it is kind of incredible that that scene is like let's put two ridiculously dressed characters in a very brightly lit fluorescent room

that does not the lighting does not play up any of the strengths of those costumes and Joker's starting to look weird his His makeup is beginning to rub off. They look even more artificial than ever. Yeah, Ben, we were saying you can see Batman's black makeup eyes. Right, usually the rest of the movie, he gets away from that in the way the Burton movies did

where the Burton movies just had to own the level of mascara. I mean, I was like, that's Christian Bale wearing a mask. Yeah. Like, weird. It's an adult man. Do you know what my favorite moment in Batman Returns is? Yeah. There's the one shot when he's going to rip his mask off.

And right before he does, suddenly all the black eye makeup is missing from around his eyes. Uh-huh. Because the movie has to be like, we don't want to have him take the mask off. I remember this. Right. It's just the one scene where you're like, why does he look different now? For like one second. For one second before he rips yeah um it is just funny to think about like badass like christian bale running and

then being like okay fuck now let me just get 15 minutes in the mirror okay we we have to we haven't even gotten to two-faced so that's the scene that's the scene michael j two-faced where doker is just saying like i am a troll you don't kill people so i want you to kill people he's clapping right all of that. And he blows up the guy's tummy and escapes. Real quick, I love the fashion. His suit, his custom suit is so good. I mean, Nolan's one of the best suit filmmakers we got right now.

That's very true. If he wasn't director, he'd be a great tailor. Maybe he is on the side. You don't know. Maybe. Christopher Crollin. And he set up his new Joker game, which is Harvey's at one end of the city,

Rachel's at the other. You gotta choose. You gotta save one. And Joker knows he's gonna go for Rachel, so he swaps the addresses. He just wants to be frustrated. He wants Batman to be frustrated. He's a troll.

Yep. Good troll. Good troll. Good troll. And then Rachel dies so she can join the ranks of Nolan ghosts. This is a moment I think Maggie G really sells. Terrific in this scene. Which is. And also very well done by Nolan.

Right. The thing where she's like, okay, okay. Harvey, look, I know that he's gonna choose me and i want you to know i don't want to live without you and she's like making her noble speech about like you know jack i'll never let go right but then when she hears him yelling she starts to be like wait wait i thought i was about to be saved what the fuck's going on here like in the last month before she dies there's this little bit of selfishness just like i thought i was saying right and then but then i like that he cuts her off mid speech yeah her hair blows in front of her face and everything turns into fire now he has been lying

down taking a little nap on a bed of gasoline and just like that's how it works you know how gasoline only burns what the gasoline touches and and then the fire goes away? It sticks to your face. Whatever. Two-Face is weird. Do what you can, man. Do what you can. Great design in this movie. And I love that the suit is just like,

the one suit he has, one and a half of it is just Morchard. Yep. And not the fucking Tommy Lee Jones, like leopard print on one side, pinstripes on the other. Well, he hasn't had a chance to customize

I know that's why fans wanted Two-Face to have his own movie so that you could have a whole sequence where he goes to the tailor and Christopher Nolan shut up

alright I have a genuine complaint though about Two-Face oh boy because I agree that he looks good is it that he's a bad guy his coin isn't so evil

it's not a very good coin yeah it's a tricky coin here's the thing with the coin is it's a trick he's a bad guy? His coin isn't... So evil! It's not a very good coin. Yeah. It's a tricky coin. Here's the thing with the coin is it's a trick. He's got a trick coin. He's a trickster. Makes his own luck. Tis rigged.

Did he say that in the movie? Dude, there's like one time when they're like, like Rachel's like, you can't entrust a situation like that to chance. I don't. Like she really, like, it's a mealy mouth line. Yeah, yeah.

Batman does it too. He's like, would you really leave that? I just think Two-Face as animated. Uh-huh. It could be like 10% less grosser

and I'd be a little more into it oh I love how gross it is I do too I like grosses I'm transfixed every time I rewatch it his jawbone on the side of his face the two things that are really a lot is the missing cheek with the like tendons and the eye being

just like a whole eye right it's intense yeah I like it I think he only gets away with it in a PG-13 because there's really not much else in this movie that's gory. But it's nasty as shit. I mean, again, if I was a kid and I saw this movie, I'd really struggle with that. Ben's throwing up the devil's horns. There he is.

Hell yeah. Right? Yeah. Because I loved Batman Forever Two-Face, played by Tommy Lee Jones. there he is hell yeah uh right like yeah yeah because i loved batman forever two-face played by tommy lee jones but that is he's purple correct it's like one half of him is tommy lee jones oscar-winning actor the other half is a purple man like half like tommy lee jones half like like jonathan demi version of a punk kid but that's what i fucking love about that guy yeah and he's like i hate that character so much it's so bad and yet i love it i'm looking at it right

now because he's like yeah one side of me is a suit the other side like zebra pattern the other side of me is a featured extra in something wild like Like, why is that evil? It's not. Anyway. This was Joker's plan all along, was he wanted to destroy Harvey Dent. He wanted to prove that- Harvey Dent is the symbol of, like, Gotham's normalcy.

And nothing good can stay that way for long. So, Dent- Either die a hero or- Live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Podcast! Yeah. And the final crucial scene is the Joker-Dent scene. He's got so many nice one-on-one conversation scenes.

Little push. Yeah, where he just goes to Dent and basically sells him on the Joker philosophy. Right. He's a dog chasing a tire. I wouldn't know what to do if I got one! Yeah. He's really, really good in this.

You know, the legend, which is amazing, is they found this abandoned hospital that was going to be demolished. Right. So they... Nolan was like, let me blow it up. They worked out a deal to put the Gotham signage on and blow it up for real.

And it's this one tracking shot. They cut into some cutaways, right? They do. But it's all... They only had one take because they did it for real. And so Heath Ledger's pushing the button and he's walking away. You know the story though, right? No, go ahead.

He pushes the button. He's walking away. The series of explosions happen. That was not planned. It actually just didn't activate all at the right time. Heath Ledger stayed in the scene, played the frustration of the button until it happened for real and then the shot continued. And then he like toddles away. Yeah, because

Pfister told me like that was the day he brought his dad to set. Cool. And he was like, dad, I want you to see I'm a real DP. Look, we're doing this incredible stunt and his dad's there video village like watching with him and then the explosion doesn't go off and he's like, oh fuck. This was our big money shot and we can't get a second take

and we're fucked. And then Heath Ledger stayed in it and was just like, if I keep on playing the frustration of the thing not going, they'll be able to use it. And then his reaction when the thing finally starts exploding, it's amazing. It's amazing. But it's like lightning in a bottle shit. You cut to the helicopter shot of the whole thing going. Right, and they had that going the whole time simultaneously. But it's like those big sequences like the truck flip and the explosion, they did it for real. And the only place they used CGI was to remove the other cameras.

Right. Like the truck flip, they have four angles of it. No, of course. And they CGI the other cameras and the crew. That doesn't count. Yeah, of course you cut those out. No, but that's what's cool about it. No, I agree.

I mean, I think that's what Nolan gets. It's not the craziest thing you've ever seen in a movie movie but there's something so tactile about it that makes it really engaging That's why you think about it And to watch the actors engaging with those things in real time It's like if I describe to you what happens in The Dark Knight

like they flip a semi you're like oh I've seen that in a ton of movies Right And if I describe to you like Avengers Age of Ultron or whatever it's like they lift up a city

and drop it But it doesn't feel like anything It doesn't feel like anything It's Flubber Shrug Too bad Flubber was actually the planned villain for the third movie until Nolan changed his mind. And Robin Williams is going to play Flubber.

Sad. So what do you think of the dent? You know, the dent part. Like the last 25 minutes of the movie. They push this arc along. Which is like dent snaps, goes on a killing spree, takes out everyone responsible for the death of Rachel, all the corrupt cops. It's a fast character change, right?

It is. They make big moves and they move them fast because the movie's got places to go. And he's got his gimmick of the coin. It's almost like you could say he's got, or he like was two-faced. Yeah, okay. Can I throw, 15 comedy points. Can I just throw out, there's the thing at the beginning of the movie where. He said, we have another nickname just throw out there's the thing at the beginning of the movie

where he said what's the nickname you have for me isn't it weird also Gordon's like well I wouldn't know they keep on calling it MCU

huh oh no do they they call something MCU it's like the major crimes unit that's Gordon's thing right

which is also the Marvel Cinematic Universe it feels like calling the shot in advance anyway Patina patina uh anyway uh he says like well didn't they have another name for me down at like mcu and he goes well i don't know i wouldn't know about that again a great gary oldman perfect in this movie

delivers that line perfectly and they cut right out of it um nothing about him seems two-faced until he becomes two-faced he seems like like a pretty on-the-level guy. I think the joke about calling him Harvey Two-Face is it's like he's such a sunshiny, I believe in Harvey Dent, public campaigner, but then behind the scenes he doesn't like these cops because he was the IA guy. The idea was that he made his name in the police department as an internal affairs investigator, busting corrupt cops. Right.

So the cops don't like bad cops. Don't like him because he's a good guy. And then he's got that scene. Sure. And they are bad. Thank you. Bad versus good. Yes.

Yes. The original fight. There's that scene before the Joker scene where Gordon visits him and is like, I'm sorry about you getting half your face melted off. I'm hearing you don't want surgery or painkillers. Well, apology not accepted. Right off the bat, let me tell you, I do not accept your apology.

Feeling pretty fucked right now. And I am a Christian scientist, so I will know. I will not have any. What if that was his origin story? I'm kicking it Jim Henson style. It's like, you sure you don't want any painkillers he's like no

they put this slight piece of gauze over my face so that no bugs fly into it they do a good job of the gauze

I also like the first time he turns his face you don't see it you cut away immediately and they don't cut back until

he turns away but you do see something for like half a second and you're like because the movie kept a total lid on Two-Face

his design in this not only his design his. Because the movie kept a total lid on Two-Face, his design in this. Not only his design, his existence in the movie. You just knew it was Dent. Yeah, you just knew Dent was in the movie. Right.

So I remember the anticipation of what's Two-Face going to look like? How is he going to design this? Fucked up. Twisted. Red.

Uh, what? His face is red. Oh, it is. You're right. Red. He has the Uh, what? His face is red. Oh, it is. You're right. Red. He has the half, you know. I thought you were dead.

Half. It's a little cute. That's the great Dan Harmon, Rob Schraub bit, which was after they saw Batman Forever, Rob Schraub in the car ride home just kept on doing an impression of Two-Face where anytime he was asked anything, he'd come up with the answer that was two of something.

How do you like your coffee with half and half? What do you want for dinner? Surf and turf. They're funnier than us. Yeah, they're the best. They're the original two friends. And then I don't love, the only thing I really don't like in the Dark Knight is the don't like in the dark night

is the last scene is the the showdown look i think oh but there's also the fucking fairies oh right there's so much shit in this movie there's a lot of shit i mean look i think this movie it does a lot of pushing all right we're doing okay yeah we're fine it does a lot of pushing it pushes things at an accelerated speed. You know, it pushes characters a little beyond logic because it is mostly a movie about ideas. It's sort of him breaking down the entire idea, the relationship between crime and protection. And there's two climaxes that are sort of about the same thing,

but on one scale it's very big and one scale it's very personal. Like, The Fairies is like joker's whole philosophy of like these people will tear each other apart right just give them the least push and i would argue they don't i would argue that nolan is not despite the fact that he does it a lot the best at building uh simultaneous action through cross-cutting does love to do it inception's the one that works in best because that's the design of the entire movie. Inception works great, in my opinion. Right, but I feel like in some of this, you're just sort of like,

and it happens too in Batman Begins where it's like you're cutting back to Gordon in the tank and it's like, well, this isn't as exciting as the Ra's al Ghul stuff. Indeed. Like, he wants to pull off some Empire Strikes Back. Although you do have Gary Oldman going like, yes! I gotta get me one of these! Right.

But that's my buddy Rach and Tori's big complaint about Nolan's Batman movies is he keeps on trying to pull off that Empire Strikes Back thing where he's got

three simultaneous planes of action and they build upon each other. Well, that's what Dunkirk's like too. We haven't seen it yet but it takes place

in several different temporalities. Three, my friend! Not one, not two, not four. Three temporalities. Hashtag the three temporalities. Three, my friend! Yes. Not one, not two, not four. Three temporalities. Hashtag the three temporalities. Two friends.

Two. Three temporalities. Yeah. I like the fairy thing, and I don't really like the dent thing. It's a moral quandary. The idea is the fairy thing, it doesn't work.

But with dent, the Joker's thing has worked. He has ruined this man. And this, therein lies the ethical dilemma. Because the public perception of Dent falling. Right. The damage.

He died nobly. It should be that he died nobly. This is a movie about branding. They understand it will be bad for the Gotham City brand. Bad branding. If Dent ends up being a bad guy. So instead, Batman's the bad guy. Because he seems like a bad guy.

He's a crazy person who dresses up like a bat. He's also like Madonna. He needs to reinvent. He's been doing this Batman good guy kick for a couple years, and he needs a new kind of brand revival. It's a reboot. And then it's really important that Alfred burns the letter. And then everyone thinks it's a right-wing movie

because Batman designs a global surveillance system almost by accident. Oh, right. We forgot all this. There's too much going on in this movie. But he destroys it. He does destroy it. I just remember there were a lot of takes like Batman right wing.

Yeah, but the movie ends up, he keeps on flirting with right wing tendencies and he always stops himself just short of it. Sure. I think the movie is trying to dismantle the types of thinking, the paranoia that will lead to arch insane conservative. Right.

What'd you want to say, Ben? I agree with you. Uh, well, it reminded me of, um, an insomnia where that's the whole thing of like,

if I get caught being corrupt and all the criminals are going to get released. Yeah. Does that ever happen though? I don't really... If you're a DA and you are found guilty... We've covered a weird amount of movies that have that as a plot point.

What's the other one? The Judge. Yeah, you're right. Also Speed Racer. I feel like it sort of functions in a way where it's like this is commonplace and I don't think it's that commonplace. That's why it's like functions in a way where it's like, this is commonplace. I don't think it's that commonplace. That's why it's like,

it doesn't do much for me. If a cop is corrupt, then you can say like, hey, this evidence is fruit of the poisonous tree. And then like, you know, yeah,

you can maybe get to work on getting your guy out or whatever. That happened with the staircase. Have you guys seen the staircase? Yes. But let's not talk about it because, oh my God. It's great. it is it is great um is there anything else though apart from the box office game and all the stuff um i mean yeah i did the the final moment which had everyone like roaring for a sequel but it kind of you also can tell yeah that that he was

like this is kind of the point I want to make. He kind of had his idea. He does have the Joker say, like, we're going to do this forever. Right. Which I remember when that happens in the theater, everyone in the audience goes like, oh, fuck. Really? Yeah, I just remember the audience just kind of dropping when that happens

just because it's like, oh, that's never going to happen. That final moment with him hanging upside down. For sure, no, it's like oh that's never gonna happen that final moment with him hanging upside down for sure no it's a really sad moment you're right yeah of course and you're like

and that's the last thing we get from Heath Ledger him upside down it's so good yeah he was a good actor yep he was

he was a great actor no bit there no no bummer yeah I remember I was like very very hardcore

into Ledger should beat Hoffman that year for Best Actor 2005. You should have. And Philip Sear Hoffman's like my favorite actor ever pretty much. I mean, it's Keaton and Hoffman are my two guys. Who are your guys? Keaton, Hoffman. Great. But I just thought

Ledger and Brokeback's like next level shit. And within the Hoffman catalog, in which I like pretty much all of his performances, but I just thought Ledger and Brookback is like next level shit and within the Hoffman catalog in which I like pretty much all of his performances Capote is the showiest but one of the

less interesting ones for me right and yeah I like I always I was like I was still smart from the fact that

he had lost that Oscar and then of course the second this comes out it kind of felt inevitable of like this is this guy who we kind of realized too late after writing him off as this failed teen star was

actually kind of one of the most interesting actors we had and now he gave this iconic indelible performance in this movie that broke the culture. He's going to win the Oscar. And it was just this inevitable thing. He won the Oscar? It comes out in July and for the rest of the year anyone else who came out and had a good supporting performance it was like but what does it matter

Heath Ledger's gonna win there's zero chance they don't give it to Heath Ledger which he did he did he won but my argument I really do think he would have won even if he I agree I always thought that argument was dumb that people said he's only winning it was such a uh yeah a bit of of course you know it's a hypothetical it's hypothetical but I think you know

uh the Dark Knight was released to critical acclaim. He's a silent guardian of Dark Knight. He rides away. He takes the blame. He takes the fall. He's going to be the bad guy. Alfred burns the letter.

Gordon smashes the thing. In lesser hands. Lucius blows up the sonar. Right, the computer. Sometimes you reward someone's faith. And in lesser hands, it would feel like too much of a sequel toss-up. And it does make you excited about

what you imagine the next chapter could be. But it quickly became very clear that Nolan was more interested in the idea of ending a movie on such a broken place than actually trying to make the next movie. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think he might have had an idea for a movie if Ledger was around.

I think so, too. I just know that he didn't really have an idea for a movie once he wasn't. And we'll talk about that in two weeks. We will. Box office game. No rush. I know.

There's something else I want to say. What do you want to talk about? This movie came out. It got great reviews. There were some people who gave it bad reviews, as happens when you have more than one film critic in the universe. This is another thing this movie kind of created. Everyone lost their fucking minds at these people.

I mean, not everyone, but like a committed group of internet assholes. This was like the start of people becoming possessive and territorial about the movies they were in. How could,

how dare you fuck with the Dark Knight's Rotten Tomatoes rating or whatever, you know? I mean, this is the whole thing I find so interesting about the Lego Batman movie. I'm not going to go

into a whole spiel, but I think Lego Batman movie is a movie about bad fan culture because Batman has weirdly been this litmus test for... I mean, or at least the Lego Batman is kind of a take on that too, right? On like the idea

of like your perfect Batman, right? Well, and Lego Batman as a character is like a guy who misinterprets Batman. Sure. Darkness! Right. No parents! And doesn't want to show vulnerability, wants everyone to understand how serious and badass he is yeah but why does that have to be the number one movie of the year for you because it's the best film of the year i see interesting point uh no but it's also it's a

movie designed for me let's be honest it's a movie starring toys about batman deconstructing am i even having this pop culture conversations oh boy. But that was the start of that. Batman's always been this weird kind of, like, everyone likes Batman, but people like Batman for different reasons. And a lot of... No, it's just that reaction that you see in 08. Yeah.

Like, by the time that it's happening with Batman versus Superman, it's, like, turned into something even more disgusting. But it was annoying and gross. And Nolan Bros as well, you know? It kind of spawns that whole movement of these people who hound critics just about like criticizing Christopher Nolan.

Right, and it falls into this weird category of like, you know, in this age of like extreme anti-intellectualism, how did this icy British man who likes makes these movies devoid of emotion. Yeah, who's not a big personality. Right, like deconstructing human behavior become the champion of all bros in the same way that the Wachowskis

made these films that spawned the red pill movement anonymous. For sure. You know, it's this odd, odd situation. This movie does change a lot of stuff. And the other big thing it changes is everyone thinks this is going to be the one that breaks the glass ceiling

and becomes the superhero blockbuster. To get the Best Picture nomination. To get the Best Picture nomination. And it was getting the precursor. We do have to talk about that. It's getting WGA. DGA, all that shit. All that shit.

And then Oscar Mourning comes up and it gets the Ledger nomination, obviously. It gets an original adapted screenplay? Does it? I remember it being snubbed. Snubs and flubs? I think it was snubbed. Snubs and flubs?

I think it was snubbed and flubbed. It gets a lot of technicals. I mean, it ends up getting like eight nominations, but it doesn't get the majors. In my memory, it got seven nominations and it won two.

Sound editing and ledger. Right. Let's see. I'm looking. But that was the last year it was five nominees. And that year. Yeah, you're right.

Yeah. So it was right. Sound editing, cinematography, Pfister, your man Pfister. Editing, art direction, makeup, sound mixing, visual effects. But yeah, no majors. Right. Apart from.

Ledger was the one. And it got that. And that was sort of like an easy, you know, lob up. Of course. But that year. But it also didn't get any Golden Globe nominations. Like there was some, apart from Ledger. Golden Globes are always weird though.

Yeah, but they are. Sure. They can be predictable. Sure. But that was the year, I mean, there was Gran Torino, WALL-E, and Dark Knight. Dark Knight, Principal, among them, were these three very big, populous movies that got big reviews, and people thought they were all sniffing around. And Frost Nixon got a Best Picture nomination. Right, and it was this disconnect thing of like,

people want to see their movies reflected. It became this fans versus critics bullshit. The ratings were down too. So what did they do, Ben? Ten nominees. Ten Best Picture nominees because of this movie. Oh. There was another one.

There's a fourth movie that was a big hit that came out that year that I can't remember that would have gotten nominated if there had been ten films. Anyway, breaks the Oscars, breaks everything. Box office game, it breaks records. Do you remember the opening number? 156. 158.4.

I was going to guess seven. I thought it was too high. What a crazy opening weekend. Pirates had previously been number one, think at 134 something like that. That had to turn Spider-Man which was 114. But yeah that was a big jump up especially because the first movie had made 200 in total.

So for a movie to make three-fourths of that No I know. It makes 533 domestic. And there was a real arms race of like is it going to catch up to Titanic? People were seeing it multiple times. It was a movie that people were seeing multiple times if you hadn't seen it imax the first time you had to go back a second time its worldwide number is bad because it did not do any business in china yeah uh and that was kind of the beginning of studios realizing like

you can never do this again you need for your movie that you want to conquer the box office like rankings all time you need to have a big strategy in China. But even Dark Knight Rises, like, did much better. Oh, yeah. This was, like, the last major American blockbuster that wasn't a huge worldwide blockbuster. That's what I'm saying. But it did still make a billion dollars worldwide.

Number one, The Dark Knight, 158. Number two is a new movie opened as counter-programming to The Dark Knight. It was one of the biggest hits of the year. It remains one of the top ten highest- year. It remains one of the top 10 highest grossing films in Britain of all time. Mamma Mia?

Correct. It was number one forever. In Britain? In Britain. It was the number one film for like seven years. Period. Full stop.

Yeah. I think it was dethroned by Skyfall. Yeah, I think Skyfall's number one. I can't remember. Star Wars might be's number one. I can't remember. Star Wars might be number one even. I don't know. But Mamma Mia opened to 27 mil.

We got a sequel coming up. Here we go again. That's right. Great title. Made 144 domestic. That's a crazy multiplier. And worldwide? Good question.

$609 million. Yeah, crazy. So it made 76% of its money outside of America. Nuts. Number three is a superhero movie. In its third week of release, it has made $191 million. Hancock? Correct.

Thought I was going to get you. No. With superhero movie. No. Because it's like a twisted superhero movie. No, because I was remembering. I think, well, let me see. I don't want to call this shot too quickly. Number four is a great film that I love.

It's wonderful. It stars a wonderful man who's a special friend of mine. It's made $43 million in two weeks, on its way to $100 million. It was a surprise summer sleeper hit. 100, right on the nugget. He's a good friend of yours. It took advantage of a new medium that would later become a

huge box office boost next year. 3D. Correct. And it contained a line in its trailer that is so good. Is it Journey to the Center of the Earth 3D? We're still falling! I forgot that Brendan Fraser is a good

friend of yours. I love him. Number five. That was when Brendan Fraser had the signal boost because he had been off the map and then he had Mummy. Mummy 3 and that the same year. 200 million grocers and they went like Fraser's back and then he immediately makes free vengeance. Who wants a wee?

Number five have been number one the week before and completely the bottom fell out of it golden army 70 drop one of the worst scheduling decisions of all time it opens really big big improvement on the first movie great movie slaughtered by dark knight never recovers never recovers great movie love that movie i need to rewatch i didn't like it when I saw it, when it came out. Oh, are you an idiot? It has been argued. All right.

Other movies. WALL-E. My good friend, WALL-E. Nice guy. WALL-E the Robot. New movie that week, Space Chimps. Oh, yes. Animated film, I believe.

Yeah, I believe Andy Samberg plays a character named Ham. Great. You got one of those. Ham the Chimp. Ham the Chimp. You got one of those. Ham the Chimp. Ham the Chimp. You got one of those surprise hits of 2008, Wanted. Yeah, a very surprising hit.

Yeah, weird little movie. Weird movie. The movie in which they weave tapestries that tell them who to murder with bended bullets. You got it in one. Those bended bullets. You've also got Get Smart, which everyone forgets was a huge hit. Yep, and is really bad. Oh, such a stinker.

They were threatening to make a sequel for a while after that because they were like, but it did well. But kind of one of those early The Rock is Funny movies. Yeah, you want to hear something really funny about that movie? So Entertainment Weekly's like big summer preview, Rock was the cover guy. How much time did this take? This is short. Forget Smart. And the big deal in that profile was he had slimmed down like he had lost like 60 pounds of muscle right i realized

i don't need to be huge anymore i think it was holding me back a little as a movie star i want to be a little more relatable and he does two movies where he slimmed down and then decides to be the biggest man in history he's like no i giant. Never mind. And then he breaks through. Yeah, because Fast Five. Yeah. And then Kung Fu Panda. Meet Dave. Yeah, originally called Starship Dave. A much better title. Indiana Jones.

Kit Kitteridge in American Girl. Sex and the City's hanging out there. Went on a date to see that movie. Really? Mm-hmm. With whom? Sarah Jessica Parker? That's correct, yes.

Kim Cattrall? Yeah, both of them the Incredible Hulk and Iron Man are both in the top 20 okay

that's all I'm done done I mean I'm not gonna do a full merchandise spotlight but I just want to say what these three

Nolan Batman movies yeah are pointedly not very toyetic no they got some cool vehicles you know the Tumblr's cool right that's what I'm saying the vehicles are cool right these three Nolan Batman movies are pointedly not very toyetic. No. They got some cool vehicles. You know, the Tumblr's cool.

Right. That's what I'm saying. The vehicles are cool. But so the toy company's like, it's Batman. He's like the biggest selling character in the history of boys toys. Or say boys toys again. Boys toys.

They had to develop full lines. If you just want to do a Google search of like the main mass market Dark Knight toys, they just come up with these ridiculous like body luge Batman. And it's like Christian Bale Batman painted purple and his arms and legs have wheels on them. So his whole body can be a luge. It's just very funny to imagine those toy designs ending up in the plot of a Nolan film.

Can't see these, but it's great. Great. Do a Google search. I'll add it to the Reddit or something. I don't know. Put it in the Reddit. Fuck you. Fuck you. Do you want to say goodbye to our nice fans and all of our friends?

After doing this great episode about the Dark Knight? Yeah. I mean look this episode's gonna be a blast. I'm so tired. And no one should ever make a TV show. That having been said August 25th watch The Tick on Prime Video. For sure. It's going to be great. I'll probably be oversaturated by the point this episode comes out.

I'll be on too many subway posters. That'll be great. I can't wait to see it. That's going to be the weird thing for me. It's going to be great. I already got the invite to Press Day to interview you. Did you really?

Yeah. Are you doing it? No. Yeah, right? Fuck you. I don't want to talk to you. Talk to you enough. Can I go in David's place?

Please. And we'll do a bit. Like in Notting Hill, he'll pretend he's me. I was talking to Sonia, past and future guest, Sonia Soraya, about how she's had to recluse herself from all tick press events. I'm not writing about no tick. God, I fucked myself up by being friends with all the entertainment writers in New York City. I think you made this joke before, but it's true.

But hey, Shirley Lee interviewed you. My good friend Shirley Lee, who is not your friend yet. I had only met her once in a professional capacity before she interviewed me, and then she was at your birthday. She's great. She dubbed me Breaking Big. Yes. And Entertainment Weekly is it-less. Shirley lives to make jokes that make me

just collapse in fury at how bad they are. So I would, I mean, that sounds like my ideal guest. That's what I'm saying. She needs to be on the podcast. We'll team up.

Yeah, because our thing in Slack used to be she would put the emoji for leaves every time she made a bad joke because the idea would be she'd be like, she's leaping. I mean,

I love this. She sounds like a regular Richard T. Joker. Love Shirley. Well, thank you for listening. Please remember to rate, review,

subscribe. Big thanks to Anne for Gudo for running our social media account. Pat Reynolds and Joe Bowen for doing our artwork. Lane Montgomery for our theme song. Please check out reddit.blankies.com. I never remember if the blankies comes first,

the Reddit comes first, but it's one of the two. Whatever, I don't know. Figure it out. I think it's the blankies comes first. Some real nerdy shit there. I'll post some pictures of my favorite weird sort of aesthetically clashing

Nolan Batman toys. Why was that sentence so difficult for me to get out? I don't know. I don't know. But as always. And as always, playing it very close to the tracks brown blue ready yeah i've been ready my whole life my cocaine my cocaine you crossed the line

first sir god damn it I did okay Michael my cocaine Michael what the fuck

Michael what was that my cocaine that was not good that was an outrage I can't put that at the end of the episode you can't

you can't that not good okay I'm gonna do a good Joker quote oh my god alright alright that you can put at the end of the episode fine you can do it That not good. Okay, I'm going to do a good Joker quote. Oh my God. All right. All right. That you could put in the end of the episode.

Fine. You can do it.