Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Fabelmans

Episode Date: November 20, 2022

For the first time in years, both Griffin and David are in agreement on a new Steven Spielberg film - what a picture! We’re playing both film critics and armchair psychologists in this episode as we unpack THE FABELMANS, a movie that is less sentimental and more complex than one would assume based on the poster. What sets this film apart from the ever-growing stack of filmmaker origin stories? Is this the de-facto Best Picture frontrunner? Why the hell was Griffin shooting on super 8 in the early 2000s when MiniDV was available? Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com or at teepublic.com/stores/blank-check

blank check with griffin and david blank check with griffin and david don't know what to say but to expect all you need to know is do this sort of like the podcast rip this shirt uh good job thank you we only have uh trailer quotes to go off of on the page right now yeah well we're doing this in advance of release also i don't know that i could tell you i just took a big swig of seltzer so i'm trying to like burp he's he's he's settling podcaster what's the line movies are dreams yeah here look i can i can run through here um uh if you stop making podcasts it'll break your mother's heart a thing no one has ever said yeah right do you always have to be the center of the podcast

some people might ask. A podcast are dreams that you never forget. There you go. That's what I was thinking. Right. You can't just podcast something. You also have to take care of it. It's more important than your hobby.

It's more... Can you stop calling it a... Can you stop calling podcasting a hobby? Good. Good. In this family, it's the scientist versus the podcasters. Podcasts will give you crowns in heaven and laurels on earth, but also will tear your heart out.

Podcasting is no game. Podcasting is dangerous as lion's mouth. It'll bite your head off. I don't know. A lot of that. Don't get the fuck out of my podcast. It'll be our secret podcast. Just yours and mine.

She says that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what i love babelman's this movie yeah you like the movie i was uh pretty fucking in love with this thing um introduce our podcast then i have something to ask you this podcast is called blank check with griffin and david i'm griffin i'm david And it is a podcast about filmographies. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes

they bounce baby. Now, whenever a filmmaker we've covered in the past has a new film come out, we loop back around to catch up with them. Yep. Beep, beep. Honk, honk. And we covered the complete second half of Steven Spielberg's career. A career so big that we broke it in half and we have yet to go back around to the first half. Yeah, we should do it. At this point,

I almost wonder if it's our, like, Doughboys McDonald's where it's like, that's how we end the show. No, we're never ending the show. Um... Since we did the podcast on him, he has released three movies,

is that correct? Five? Five? Am I wrong? The Post? Yeah, The Post Ready Player One West Side Story

The Fablemans Is there one other one? This is the fourth? Is it four? I feel like there's one more But maybe I'm wrong I forgot about one of those West Side Story

I guess I didn't forget about it But yeah No, it's just four Because yeah We ended our series on just four, because yeah, we ended our series on the BFG. Oh, okay. Okay. A firecracker ending, if there ever was one. BFG! But yeah, since then,

our man Steve has produced four films. Some of the directors we've covered have produced zero. Very true. Yeah. Some of them have died. Oh, okay. Excuses, excuses. Cameron Crowe, no new films crow no new films no new films on the horizon although now apparently he wants to make a dazzler movie no he doesn't did you read that fucking thing no what thing there was a headline that was like uh cameron crow wants to

make a dazzler film for marvel starring taylor swift and i was like what is that sounds like an ai auto-generated so then i read the interview and they're like, would you ever direct a superhero movie? And he's like, I don't know. You pitch me one. Right. And they're like a dazzler movie with Taylor Swift.

And he's like, sure. Yeah. No, he doesn't say sure. He actually just goes, he just like makes a noise and they're like, he confirms it.

Yeah. It talks with Kevin Feige right now. Uh, but no new crows. Uh, no new crows. He's finally making a new movie but no new nancy's yeah m night's been keeping it up yeah we got one new wachowski yeah m night's been the most prolific we've gone back to right we've only had one new only i mean i think spielberg might be the most

prolific um m night we ended on the Visit Split, Glass, and Old Split, Glass, and Old M. Night will tie him with Knock at the Door Hasn't been a new Bigelow No There's been a new Nolan or two There's been one All I have for you is a word

Tenet Loperhoven did a movie He did James L. Brooks still quiet uh huh kind of sounds like another guy who might

never make a film ever again Brad Bird did a movie he did uh Ang Lee has done one but has been quiet

yeah Tim Burton has been making a Wednesday Addams show for Netflix for the last year thank god for that uh Michael Mann finally working on something yes

Miyazaki long at work on something Jonathan Demme Lazy Lazy bones just kidding May he rest in peace Miller made a new movie and he's making another one Efron David's checking his watch

Where's my movie Nora Get back to work Gina Prince-Bythewood made a movie Zemeckis it's a shame well he he has a shame he hasn't made anything it's a shame that he actually hasn't made anything and i found out retroactively the last five episodes of our miniseries maybe don't exist right uh clements and musker supposedly retired although occasionally there's rumors they're working on something yes uh elaine may uh yeah that dakota johnson movie coming soon uh

definitely gonna happen i love it john singleton sadly dad john carpenter retired but gives four interviews a week about how he loves video games and basketball and then people are like what do you think about horror movies he's like i don't know move on next next question the guy's like okay do you like gears of warars of War is so good! He talks for 10 years about Gears of War. He did that Godzilla marathon on Shout TV, which was pretty cool. I mean, he's cool, to be clear. Jane Campion made a new movie.

We ended on her. Sam Raimi's working on something new. Yes, we heard... Is it public knowledge? Yeah, the Magic movie. Is that public knowledge? It is. It is, okay.

Sam Raimi is, by all accounts, remaking Magic, which is a 70s horror movie starring Anthony Hopkins about an evil ventriloquist dummy. And it is very exciting just in that it is a low-budget return to horror. Low-budget-ish. It sounded like a thing he started out developing as a producer and now has decided to take over as director. Bob Fosse is directing a Dark Hawk movie for Marvel. Stanley Kubrick is doing a reboot of the Real Steel franchise. Yep. Real Steel Revolution. Yeah. So, Steven Spielberg.

Yes. To stay busy. And you know what? Even for how how busy he stayed he's been even a little less prolific in the five years since we covered him than he has been for most of his career pandemic certainly adds a space there but yes but barely honestly he used to be a clockwork once a year if not two a year guy he would do some no he would often be once a year or he would if he did a header a back-to-back then he'd take then he might like a year or he would If he did a header back to back Then he might like take a year or two But then the thing with him is

He's in his what I like to call Fuck it phase Which like so we end on the BFG Which is him I feel like still being like I'm Steven Spielberg I make these kinds of movies The BFG like oh Steven Spielberg It's about dreams it It's about children.

A little bit of the one for me, one for them thing of like, my tastes are maturing, but every once in a while, I should go back to the Amblin well and make a classic Spielberg movie. Since then, I feel like he's been in his fuck it phase. So The Post is like one of the most fuck it movies where he's like, I don't like Donald Trump. I don't like this sort of like, you know, anti-truth thing that's going on. Tom Merrill, want to knock one out?

A script lands on his desk on a Thursday. They're filming by Monday. I'm in post on Ready Player One. They're handling the Zemeckis Cube and all that. So like, you guys want to just fuck around? God, that's called the Zemeckis Cube. You're trying so hard to get me to rewatch Ready Player One. And anytime you invoke any specific of the movie it works against your i'm trying to

write an article about steven spielberg right now and ready player one is certainly a huge part of it because ready player one obviously is him being like look at this world i've created hmm hell and then it ends with him being like Guys I'm not gonna You can have it but can you just like Maybe use it like twice a week Just go outside Sometimes kiss a lady

Sometimes Even if she's so horribly disfigured Kiss a lady The thing that happens all the time When I defend Ready Player One, a great film. And of course, talk about Olivia Cooke

having a small port wine stain on her face. Horrible. Yeah. What is she like now? What is it? It's, um... What's the...

What? You know, suffocato or whatever. Come on, the viral clip. This is House of the Dragons press? Yeah, you know, where she was... House of the Land of the Dragons?

Where Emma Darcy's like, I like this drink, and Olivia Cooke goes, oh, stunning. She's really great. She has one of the world's great accents. Yes, she does. Anyway, West Side Story, that felt like Spielberg being like,

I've never made a musical. I want to do it. I'm getting old. And I want to remake one of my favorite movies. Fuck you. This is what's interesting. And the Fablemans is like, my parents are dead. Time to talk about the darkest secret in my life.

Now, when this movie gets announced, I think you and I, a lot of people went, fuck, is he retiring? This feels like the final film you make, right? And you and I said,

do you think it's just that he wants to make it while he still has his fastball? Not that he's done, but it also like, for the first time in a long time, there is not a clear next Spielberg movie on the horizon. Yeah. Even with the gap of West Side Story and that release getting delayed,

Fableman's gets announced and is shooting before West Side Story comes out. Right. Because it was once he he begins work on the Fableman's once the pandemic begins. He's a guy who's always like prepping one movie while he's posting the last class and the next one's filming before the the previous one comes out and now they're like a couple things he's sort of gotten loosely attached to but it's even less than he usually flirts with and no clear next film sure do we what is the thing he's working on right now do we know the most recent thing that wasn't that because spielberg will just i mean he always has no interest a lot of things he's sort of right semi-attached the most recent thing i believe

that was announced as an interest was the the bullet yeah i don't want him to i don't either but then again he's in his fuck it phase and i respect he's in his fuck it phase and he's like i want to do something based off the books rather than remake the movie or whatever but then you look at zyme db and you look at the things that are like listed as in development yeah i'm to be of course not the most reliable sort of just throws everything in there they are mostly the things that he's abandoned at some point in the last 10 years so there's the pope movie the pope movie was the one that just, they never seemed to be able to crack. And it was so much that they couldn't find

the right actor to play young Mark Rylance that they did this like nine month search. Well, then they shrunk Mark Rylance using a time machine. But then it was hard to make him big again. They couldn't go back. It took forever. Question, what kind of Pope was it?

Of Rome, you know, Bishop of Rome. Well, like, is he old? Is he young? Is he big? Is he small? what kind of pope was it uh of rome you know bishop of rome old is it young is it bad hot right hot big pope that's just like that where it's like uh like uh we have a pope and then one pope two pope red boat blue pope That's right, Green Eggs and Pope Yeah No, it's about a kidnapping of a Pope, right? It was called The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortata And no, I believe it was about Like a young Jewish boy

Who was kidnapped and raised as a Christian Forcibly It's about some like true 19th century Religious story And I believe Rylance was going to play the Pope It was going to do with Rylance and Oscar Isaac. And they couldn't cast the kid. And then

West Side Story ends up sort of leapfrogging it. And Wes, the thing with Spielberg is that it always feels like he has all these things on the burner. Yes. And then if something gets hot because he's Steven Spielberg, it can come together very quickly because he can attract the top talent. Yes yes so he can get actors and that only helps you get everything

else you need once he makes up his mind the thing hits the ground right and he has the most like um committed long running set of collaborators so he can just spool up quickly yes everyone can start like you know pre-production we can start like, you know, pre-production. We can start designing stuff and finding locations and getting ready. He's, he's a fucking machine. But even like when I was looking at sex machine, well,

we've, remember we used to do this. Remember when we used to, when we picked a director, we theorize what their sex life was like. Uh, yeah. Why did we do that?

I don't know. Bad. Um, so this movie, you're like, fuck, is he winding down? Is this a final film? Is he stepping away? He's been doing a lot of interviews recently

for this movie, and he said like, pandemic hits, West Side Story is now going to get pushed a year, his whole family, all his children, his many children who had scattered to the ends of the earth all come back,

move back home. He's with his wife and his children all day. And he's like, Which sounds nice. I'm stir crazy. I like working. Yeah.

Films a collaborative social medium. That's what he said that's very interesting. He's like, I'm so social and I'm always like in meetings, in planning.

I'm always talking with people, collaborating. It's so fun for me. It makes sense that he doesn't like in meetings in planning i'm always talking with people collaborating it's so fun for me it makes sense that he doesn't like these gaps in between movies that he constantly wants to be in these conversations because if i were him take it easy take it easy easy and sleazy i'd just be like you know what deposit all the checks except for the ones i get for transformers i'm still rich i'm gonna go live on an island. The Transformers checks for him are the equivalent of Jay Leno not spending his Tonight Show money. Everything else,

that's the nut. Transformers, day to day. Do you guys know the Universal Studios thing? No, I don't know anything about this. This is a quick anecdote and you will like it. Did you see him dissing Warner Brothers, by the way? Yeah, well, we're going to dig into all of this. Okay.

When Universal decides to expand and become a direct competitor with Disney, not just a backlot tour of a full theme park, right? They're like, the biggest move we can make is locking in Spielberg. Several of the highest grossing films are Universal, Amblin, Spielberg movies. We want them in the park, but not only that, we want his endorsement. We want his sort of creative guidance. Spielberg's contract is that he gets $20 million a year from Universal. In perpetuity.

Honestly, he probably deserves it. He probably makes them 10 times that amount of money just on his catalog. well when they opened it was like et forget the fucking right rides and all that yeah jurassic and now even as things have changed it's like it's still jurassic world it's still transformers which he produced there's so much of his shit there um do you remember when he was gonna make a movie called robopocalypse? Really close to happening. Drew Goddard. And then Michael Bay maybe took it over. Yeah. Drew Goddard's script. And it was Anne Hathaway and Chris Hemsworth.

I don't know. That's the thing. You look at his IMDb now, and the in-development projects are mostly graveyard of things he ended up not making that it feels like he's probably not going to circle back to. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he gave up Gersershwin to who well oh no i'm sorry he was there was bernstein and gershwin he was both interested in geez he gives up

bernstein to cooper obviously and then there was the gershwin zachary quinto thing that was announced right after the first star trek movie comes out. Never happens. Never happens. Doing Harvey with Tom Hanks. Don't do that. These are the like sort of this seems too obvious kind of projects. But anyway, he is stuck at home. He says, I start taking like five-hour drives because I need to get out of the house. Right.

And I start going like, what do I do with my life now? What do I do? Is anything going to ever go back to normal? If I get to make a movie again, what do I want it to be? And basically starts asking himself the tough question, which is, if i only have one film left to make what is it yeah right not i need to retire yeah not i'm dying but just like this can all fall apart at any second what's the one movie if i can only tell one more story and he's like it's the thing i've been too afraid to make my entire life my entire career right uh but also look he's not saying this but his his his father died uh fairly recent in 2020 yeah his mother died a couple years before

then she died in 2017 i think yeah um he's not saying like once my father had passed away i was finally sort of free to do this but it is undeniable that his dad dies and he starts working on this movie pretty much right away. Also, there were different points in time. And his dad died at the age of 103, by the way. Good for his dad. Damn. Those are good genes.

Absolutely. Yeah. And Spielberg has great denim as well. But I was reading, because at different points in time this was announced as a thing that spielberg was developing his sister and spielberg who's the julia butter's character in this basically yeah is a screenwriter has written several films true at some point in the 90s or the early i can look it up she wrote a script i'll be home yes uh that exists yes and tony kushner talked about it in an interview i was just reading

on the film stage um where he said like both she's a great writer and she's got like a lot of scripts that i feel like should be turned into movies that i've read uh-huh um but and i've read that thing and it's good i didn't know about it until we were like close to production sure um but he kushner and i believe this was like but i think it's better that i helped steven write this because he needed someone outside of the family to kind of bounce things off of right and for me to be like that's interesting that's less interesting or you know whatever like you know it makes a lot more sense to To be a therapist, essentially. Yes, yes.

But there were other times that he'd be like, maybe one of the things I'm developing is based on my childhood. And at those times when those movies would not come to fruition,

would say, I would get too hung up on imagining how it would make the other members of my family feel. So he has never said, I finally made The Fablemans because my dad died.

But he did at different points say, i'm too afraid to make this movie because basically my parents are alive you know um right right right right right i don't know if i want to put my sisters through this again yeah you know and i don't know if i'll make my parents feel like assholes like spielberg has now been clear about this the ultimate the sort sort of most painful thing in this movie, arguably, which is that he... We're spoiling the Fablemans, and obviously this film's in limited release right now. It's going to be wide soon.

But we have to get into it. This is a movie that is made up of vignettes, and it's not plotty, and so we have to talk about scenes in detail. But the whole thing of that that he in his home movies essentially sort of saw this evidence of his mother being very close with another man

and then confronted her and showed her and helped her understand that she was essentially in an emotional affair that she didn't even totally know was happening. All of that is true. And he has never, that was like his dark secret yes like he and his mother truly were like we're the only people who know about this not only that right it was like yeah entirely secret conversations he had with his mother up until she died right um but

also that uh the spielberg divorce the parents divorce looms so large over his filmography, right? It's such a big thing. And I also think for so many people, the idea of what Spielberg actually experienced as a child was just combined with the fictionalizations of the divorce we see in the movies, where people were like,

well, I assume it was just like this. Whereas he was not Elliot's age. You know, he was 10 years older when the parents finally got divorced. Sure. Right. It's not some exact thing. It's not a one-to-one.

Right. It's not a one-to-one, but I think the things converge in people's minds. When they did the documentary a couple years ago, the HBO Spielberg documentary, that was the first time he started talking about the fact that it felt like the father abandoned the family, and what they found out when they got older

was basically that he played the bad guy to allow for the younger daughters to allow the mother to remarry the friend and not have the kids

hate him and her. He was like, this is a more stable family unit. I will be the one who is seen as ruining the marriage. Right.

What Spielberg even at that point in time was not willing to reveal was, I knew what was going on. My mother and I would talk about it. But I think the sisters had that perception. Yeah. That documentary is largely

kind of whatever. I don't know how you feel about the documentary. That stuff, that stuff, which is sort of at the front of it, is the mutt, is the so interesting, and the, you know,

Anne and, no, not Anne, Anne's sister, sorry, you know, his parents, Leah, Leah and Arnold,

are like together. Yes. And very sweet with each other. Yes. And it is this fascinating footage. My problem with the documentary was that it's so heavy on the first half of his career. Yeah. And it kind of fascinating footage. My problem with the documentary was that it's so heavy on the first half of his career.

And it kind of yada yadas everything post-Oscar. Because we'd already done the miniseries. They knew who needs to cover it. And I was just watching it being like, yeah, I know that Harrison Ford had dysentery. And I was like, I want to hear about you making Minority Report and AI. I want to hear about your weird post-Oscar feelings.

BFG. There should be two hours on B and that you know the movie has to rush it somewhere yeah uh no it arguably could be longer but anyway yes all that's interesting when he finally announces the fableman's and i've seen that hbo documentary i'm like well i understand the story he needs to tell because i think some people are like fuck he's gonna make another movie about his parents divorce but now minus the metaphor and i'm like he has really obscured what the actual dynamic of his parents divorce was there's a story here that he is not told even in a fragmented way uh it sure seems that way um so i'm amped when this movie gets announced as you said it very quickly comes together it's like suddenly oh he's

finally fucking doing it and they're filming they announce Dano, Rogan, Williams they cast Unknown Kids it's off and running this movie has been such an exciting prospect to me for a year our friend Jordan Hoffman saw it very early.

He did. Not to blow his spot, but he did for reasons I cannot remember. Some feature or something. Being New York's top Jew? Maybe. Honestly, maybe. Honestly, maybe. Honestly, maybe.

And like, fair. Yeah. He sure is. But when we did our 2001 episode with him. Yeah. Afterwards, Jordan and I went to see 3,000 Years of Longing, and in the cab, I was like, can you tell me everything about the Fablemins?

Yeah, right, right, right. Not like, spoil if you're not. No, no, but like, give me the vibe. Right, and he, I was like, so it's like a knockout, right? And he's like, look, I love it. It hit me very hard. I wonder if everyone will be able to relate to it. It's a lot sadder than people expect it to be.

You know, I think it's emotional in a different way. The dynamics of play are very odd. And then he was sort of describing it to me. I was like, God damn it. This sounds so fucking good, right? The response comes out of Toronto. It wins the People's Choice Award. It feels like this must be now the default frontrunner.

Yeah. And then I feel like the recent wave of reviews has started to become a little more muted, where they're like, this thing's good. It's not a knockout. People are now starting to, like, come for it in the way that any Oscar frontrunner starts getting. It's inevitable.

And also, it's a Steven Spielberg movie about himself. Like, you know, there's going to be hostility. The last three Steven Spielberg movies that we've covered on this podcast, I liked to varying degrees, but felt disappointed by all three of them. Right? West Side Story became a funny book. I feel like you were fairly pro-post. I am, but I don't think it's like...

I don't remember us really being... Bridge of Spies level. Well, what is? I'm just saying. I was having that conversation with Bilger recently where he was like, Bridge of Spies. Now there's a movie. And I was like, my friend, you're not wrong.

And it was like, oh, he's made a fucking dad movie. This is his late period master stage. Post had me really amped up. I like The Post. I have trouble with Ready Player One. I like West Side Story. I wished I loved it as much as everyone else did. There is that thing with, as you said, with

Spielberg, the expectations are just so fucking high. The bar is so high with him where it's like, if you go see a Spielberg movie and you're not levitating, it feels like a disappointment. This is maybe my favorite movie I've seen in a couple years. Wait, your favorite movie? The Fablements. Of any movies?

I kind of think so. Wow. I was trying to compare the last time I felt this affected by a movie. Robert Zemeckis' Pinocchio? Oh, sorry. Okay. Yeah, so six weeks ago. That is funny. My friend, have you forgotten

Smile? Being the Ricardos okay one year that magical night you met them and were them or or they were themselves look it's been a weird couple of years right there was a lack of a theater going in in the middle of that right right uh and uh i've gone through different emotional things and uh i i felt i talked about this with ben i haven't talked about this as much with you but i've been in like a pretty bad depressive spot for the last handful of months that i'm trying to work my way through i mean i'm aware you're aware of this this is the thing i had not told you because i thought if i told you this you would get unreasonably worried perhaps fairly i talked at this with ben but i was just like movies are not hitting for me oh well but i've gotten that vibe a little bit from you though and i certainly enjoy

things but i'm just like it feels like the dosage is off even when i'm watching something that is great sure whether it's a new release or re-watch a fucking Kubrick. That's been a this year thing for you. Cause last year. No, no, no. Yeah. They were hitting for jazz to be back in theaters.

Yeah. And then this year I'm just like the potency is off. Even things I've enjoyed is with a ceiling. It was concerning. And Ben was truly like, that's, that's the most, uh,

alarming thing I've ever heard you say. Yeah. That's like Dan candy, man. Not liking candy. I didn't want to tell you. He does like, heard you say. Yeah, that's like Dan Candyman not liking candy. I didn't want to tell you. Wait, he does, like, he likes flowers. Well, it's his family business.

Whatever. Jesus. This was, and I think it's a reason I was sort of, I struggled with West Side Story last year is I was like, I want this to make me feel that way. And then when it didn't,

which is a thing that is not the movie's fault necessarily, I was like, I can't say I want this to make me feel that way. And then when it didn't, which is a thing that is not the movie's fault necessarily, I was like, I can't say I love this because I wanted this movie to transport me. And this, I felt like this was a levitational movie experience for me. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, how one feels just, you know, as a person, you know, it a person. Yes.

You know, it affects any film watching experience so much. It's so hard to just be like an objective movie evaluation machine, right? Like, you know, you're always going to be like thinking about X that day and, you know, that week, that month, that year. Absolutely. But also movies have been my most effective, consistent form of self-medication across my life. I know that. I month that year absolutely but also movies have been my most uh effective consistent form of self-medication across my life i know that i know that that's always been if nothing else you can just go fucking see you know robert zemeckis's pinocchio the best film of take the edge off right uh but yes yes and even seeing something crappy just experience it going through getting on my head a little bit whatever i just like, even the crappy movies are not able

to hold my attention as well anymore. And the good movies I see, it feels like I'm like, oh, that's good. I appreciate it. It's not really hitting me at a bone-deep level, even if I intellectually am very stimulated. Yes. Which is mostly an intellectual experience, that film.

Right. Like a spiral The Book of Saw. Yeah. Right. I would say I had a little bit of that experience with Five Bloods during the pandemic. There are some other movies I think are less perfect, but that were able to hit me specifically in emotional points. I feel like Worst Person in the World kind of rattled you up. I'm trying to think of like other. That was close. Yeah.

Right. I mean, that was what? My number two last year. I don't remember. Friends Dispatch, which I loved. You loved that. You lovedatch which I loved you loved that you loved Matrix I loved

no I was thinking Resurrection I was running through especially like with theatrical experience the times I felt like the thing kind of lifted me out of the seat

in the last couple of years right and and yeah those are the examples Five Bloods I had to watch at home think of ending things

even as a flawed movie, Soul at times was able to cut through me in that kind of way. But this, I was just like so fully in love with what I was watching. And I am so eager to see it again. Ben and I saw it together. David, you saw it at Toronto. I saw it at its world premiere. Spielberg, not a festival guy Not usually

Yeah, in fact Now, like, when was his I mean, okay, he launched like Bridgespies At New York Okay, was it a secret screening? No, no, no, it was That movie premiered at the New York Film Festival West Side Story did not premiere

At a festival Ready Player One premiered at the Cann York Film Festival. West Side Story did not premiere at a festival. Ready Player One premiered at the Cannes Film Festival. No, at South By. Right. But, you know, it's a little... The Post, obviously, was kind of one of those, like, end of year, like, this is the last thing critics will see

before they vote on awards or whatever. The BFG premiered at Cannes out of competition. That is wild. You know, Lincoln was a New York film. So he'll do something like that to like throw a premiere out. But Tiff... Tiff he'd never done. Had never done it, I don't think.

I believe that's what he said when he came out and introduced it. I saw this film at its world premiere at the Toronto International Film Festival at the Princess of Wales Theatre Visa screening room I saw it, it was the same night as Glass Onion and they were both in the same theatre so I literally

went to see Glass Onion which itself is not short and is also like a big old movie see that movie and it's fun you enjoy very fun having fun i'm looking at the back of daniel craig's head you're texting us you're like glass onion rules going back in for fableman's that's the thing i ran out what a fucking night right i ran out i went to a and w shout out what's up which member of the burger family did you eat

no i got a chicken i like their chicken sandwich i forget what it's called chicken cousin chicken yeah like for some reason they're all family members i sat uh on like king street or whatever i ate it just on the sidewalk wolfed it down yeah because i was like not only am i going to a neck and 9 p.m showing of the fables this movie's two and a half hours long two and a half bucks um so I had that fear of like, am I just going to be too zonked for this? Especially because like Glass Onion, jazzy, fun, loud. Yes.

Fablemans, I was, my vibe of the Fablemans was definitely like, this is not going to be a rollercoaster movie. No. Like, this is going to be a quieter film. Yes. But I was. Although they are developing a rollercoaster at Universal

as part of like, they have to justify $20 million a year. If you're paying him that much, you want to work his movies into the park. You've seen your mother talking to his, your father's business. You drop suddenly. Now you're in the, what do I do with my career pool. You're sort of spinning around. But then I was just wrapped by the film film yeah i was i was i was very very taken with

it um it my not to get too much into detail but my mother's life is very my mother's family very similar situation happened yeah where her mother left her father for a friend of the family in the early six same age basically as spielberg she's maybe a few years when was spielberg born 46 so she's like a few years younger than him yeah uh so same era where like getting divorced was still like fairly surprising unusual development you know but although obviously like that's generation that fucking invented divorce practically yeah sure um and that's the whole thing with spielberg is the divorce guy Is it's like he is a baby boomer Obviously

But his audience is Gen X Right His movies are coming out in the 70s and 80s These movies that are about divorce And Gen X that's the fucking divorce generation All these kids are divorced For Spielberg's generation divorce is a little rare But then his audience

Is like the first major generation That really has to grow up with divorce is like a 50-50 odd. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, 100%. Look. Yes. I don't want to get into personal private family life stuff on this episode at all. Right.

But I will say this movie hit me really fucking hard. Yes. I understand. Yes. say this movie hit me really fucking hard uh yes i understand yes um so the fablemans we both liked it i think it is a masterpiece yes so how many buckets of popcorn 10 out of how many 25 no i don't know i'm so i want to see a second time before i i have a final rate before you gave it buckets of popcorn no i understand i understand it's not a rating you can throw out lightly i uh i i've started using letterbox again but i've been kind of loath to do the stars just because i feel like i want to free myself a little of having the to put the numbers on the things you know yeah uh because i can

sometimes feel like a prison of labels and ratings yes um but i i loved this movie pretty fucking thoroughly uh there is that thing where i'm just like it's sort of what jordan warned me is like is this just so squarely targeted at hitting everything like am i just so absolutely the bullseye for this movie you know is my relation, is my response to this disproportionate to what other people experience? It's not unique. I think you felt similarly. Some people have felt very similarly.

Look, your reaction is the only reaction you got. So, like, don't second guess it. But, you know, like, he's a filmmaker who's mattered so much to so many people he's made these big movies for like you know i think it's okay for lots of people to sort of be like thunderstruck by like him sharing you know his memories in this very like you know raw way yes um and not too gauzy this is not too gauzy a movie no because this is the other thing i go to a wedding i sit next to brandon hines friend of the show passing future guests what's up brandon he looked handsome sure he did

wearing a little fucking bow tie with a neatly trimmed mustache he looked so goddamn good was galling but i said next week i get to see fablemans and he went oh i am dreading that one because i mean the trailer does kind of make it look like this syrupy treacly kind of like movies the magic of cinema ah to be a child let's say also the poster sucks ass the poster is pretty boring graphic design i don't know what the poster is for this movie to be fair like i'm not really sure what i would make it i don't either maybe um a little boy with two cameras for eyes. Yes. Right.

Or a camera sticking out of his mouth. Like a lens sticking out of his mouth. Just cameras sticking out of everything. Wow, this is bad. It's so boring. I mean, like, I... It just looks like a... I get the meaning that led to this poster.

I get it. I do, too. But it's very... And capture every moment is a... All of it. Is a fairly bland sort of... And we've talked a lot about there's been this wave over the last 10 years

of it feels like certain master filmmakers of a certain ilk being like, cracks knuckles, it is time to tell you about my childhood. Yeah, and it's interesting

that this movie's coming out like the same time as Armageddon Time, which is a different kind of movie. But like... The run of Tree of Life, Roma, Belfast, I feel like there are four or five other examples

i'm forgetting which one do you say bardo bardo uh yeah no there's you know look those are movies about uh filmmakers finally digging into their childhood and what made them a filmmaker bardo is a really brave story about how terrible it is to win best to best back-to-back best director oscars and the existential malaise this year there's like after sun there's you know another joanna hogg movie that's a very personal tale you know like there's a lot of movies that feel like they're like filmmakers drawing from there yeah you know i guess i'm talking more about the like because i i think i put moonlight in the after sun souvenir category the the tree of life belfast this, it's like very famous filmmakers being like, here is my origin story.

I know you've all wondered, right? Yeah. And they all have this sort of, they're not plot driven. They're sort of memoir films, right? They're vignette-y. They're these little glimpses, you know? And here are the dynamics. Here are the relationships.

Here are the moments that changed the way I viewed the world. Right. here are the relationships, here are the moments that changed the way I viewed the world. A thing I find incredibly interesting about this movie is like,

A, there is this very weird, specific, gnarled dynamic at play that is very unique in the family situation.

Mm-hmm. But B, I think what many people feared this movie would be is just like, right, the magic of movies. Half the movie is just

wide-eyed Spielberg analog sitting at the theater giving the spielberg look which to be fair is the opening shot of this film basically that we'll talk about yeah um all the movies that affected his life him becoming a master filmmaker whatever right what i find so fascinating about this movie is it really feels like it is about a savant who does not understand the power that he wields. Well, okay, okay. I'm not sure I agree with that, but okay.

That so much of the movie is like, not that he comes out of the gate and he's brilliant, but that everyone is like, how did you do that? You have this natural facility

to think through these things and figure out how to put these things on screen or whatever, and everyone around him is so emotionally affected by him doing this in one way or another. Right. And he does not understand it. It is an organic thing for him. It is how he knows how to express himself.

Yes. He is not this bleeding heart artist. He's very pragmatic about getting stuff done. We're going to talk about it. And then everyone around him is whipped into a frenzy in one way or another. And I think so much of the journey of this movie is not just him working through his family shit,

which is basically, you're never going to finish working through this, but you're coming to understand your parents are human beings. They are not just your parents. They are human beings with complicated, messy lives

that you will never fully understand. And at some point, they will become more contemporaries to you. And you will still try to work on those relationships. But also, the end of the movie basically is him being like, I now need to figure out how to use the ability I have in a purposeful way.

Because there's a lot of power to what you can do with a movie. And how it can affect people around you. Yeah, that's all true. That hit me really hard. Ben, do you want to throw any basic thoughts before we dig into the... I really enjoyed it.

It's such a lovely movie. It's nice to just like see a great story about characters who aren't fucking superheroes. Well, I mean, he is a superhero. I mean, he has the power. Power of cinema. Cinema, right, there you go super cinema man yeah uh what i was very excited by because i love old technology is that throughout the film they're they're shooting and using like old technology and he's like not editing on an

editing bay and all that stuff and like you know spielberg tactile certainly exacting about like well this is the camera i used at that time and like we need to get all these things and right did you see the credit at the end of the film where they do the little kodak stamp that they always put on if a movie shot on on kodak film right and says kodak shot on super 8 hell yeah 16 and 35 no because you know i saw this film in a fucking premiere yeah it was midnight yeah credits start rolling and i you know people are hooting and hollering i want it that's why i do i do would like to see it again and like yeah soak it in um but i remember it i having seen it two months ago i remember it it's fairly burned on the brain yeah um and uh

i thought it was good and i'm gonna give it four bags of popcorn great out of 25 okay and the episode's over can you just hit stop i just have one quick record post is the right now extra butter have you ever established what the butter kind of content i'm sorry i should clarify mine is cheetos popcorn oh. Thank you. Mine's a churro popcorn. You can get that at Alamo Drafthouse. I know. Disgusting. Ehrlich got it when we went to see Tar.

Yeah. And I was like, ew. They have the elote street corn, which is very good. That one's well- Because, you know, spicy is fun. You know, a little savory. I don't need sweet. I don't need a sugar bomb.

Well, I was just in Europe. And in both London and Paris, if you go to a movie theater, they will say, do you want salty or sweet? I'm sorry, what? Yeah. If salty popcorn, sweet popcorn. But if the default is sweet, and it sucks. And you know what I do?

You mix it. I mix it up. A lot of people mix it. I hate it. I hate that. And that's why you left, and you'll never go back? Honestly, maybe. Number one reason.

Might be the number one reason. It was your Brexit. It's like how in Italy, when you ask for water, like the default is sparkling water, which I love. Oh, I do too. In Britain, like the default popcorn is,

you have to be like, specify like salty popcorn, please. Yeah. It's like in Canada, if you ask for water. I think we got it in the back here. In Canada, if you ask for water, they give you a pint glass of maple syrup. It to be like, Canada, if you ask for water. I think we got it in the back here. In Canada, if you ask for water, they give you a pint glass of maple syrup.

It to be like, no, American water. I'm sorry. American water. We're done, though? Yeah, we're done. And if you could just post it immediately. Immediately. We know it's a Thursday.

Two weeks before the episode's supposed to come out? We're actually live. Yeah, we're live right now. Griffin's about to go shoot a movie. Or should I not say that? You can say that. Okay. I'm not saying what the movie is,

just because we're all independent filmmaking. It's The Fablements 2. It's The Fablements 2. Sammy's back. Sammy's back. Sammy's revenge. This film is about a little Jewish family called The Fablements.

Yes. They are Sammy, little Sammy, played by Matteo Francis DeFord as a young boy keep going is there aren't there five more names Mateo Zorian Francis DeFord I don't want to make fun of anyone me sound simple he's got a very cute little face yeah and Gabriel LaBelle as a teenager who really looks like a young Spielberg like really really is a bit of a ringer for, like, when you see pictures of Spielberg.

Yeah, especially he's got the same schnoz. He is incredibly good in this movie. He's excellent. I agree. He's excellent. Yeah. And especially because it's, like, a character that doesn't really start to take control of the narrative. Or should I say, the performance does not really require him

to take control of the narrative until like the last third of the movie, maybe. Yeah. You have a good chunk with the kid, and then I feel like for a lot of the movie, even though we're kind of seeing things through Sammy's eyes, he's a very passive character. He's an observer.

The parents are driving the scenes more. You know? It's only the last third that Sammy starts really sort of uh i don't know driving the scenes himself that's true i mean he also puts down the camera for a bit and that kind of puts him yeah we can you know uh all right his mother mitzi uh-huh played by played by michelle williams five time nominee at this point four i think she's gonna lose again um one of the most strange decisions david here's from thing oscar perspective that's all four four-time nominee okay uh blue valentine brokeback mountain my week with maryland

manchester uh correct manchester's the one it feels like she should have won yeah as she didn't she who did she lose to because that's the moonlight Moonlight year. She lost to Viola Davis for Fences. It was one of those things where they were like, shit, we fucked up not giving it to Viola two years ago. Sorry, we have to give it to Viola here. And also kind of category fraud. That's the thing. She got fucked by the... Because I think she was seen as the de facto frontrunner.

Then they announced that they were running Viola and supporting even though she had won the Tony for Best Lead. And then it was like her oscar campaign's over it really was viola sweeping she's not going to win a single thing uh this year they're now sort of doing the opposite thing to williams although i would argue this is a lead performance just strategically it is a bad move for them i think the kid's the lead of this movie the movie is being told through his perspective almost entirely I think everyone else is supporting I think this movie has three leads

and I think they are Gabriel LaBelle, Paul Dano and Michelle Williams I mean I just don't I think it's just the kid everyone else is supporting you just don't there's just not really scenes from Mitzi's perspective in this movie

at all no but I also they are driving most of the film this is a complicated thing that we've talked about before but it is this thing where like so many movies of this size really only have one female character of prominence right so it becomes this question of like well whereas there's clearly a one male lead and then everyone else is in support of that male lead often the female lead of a film could still be

considered supporting the male lead. And so often the nominees in Best Lead Actress are movies where it's like, this is a character study of this one woman. It is rare that you get like the Felicity Jones nomination where it's like, you are Stephen Hawking's wife and we are considering you the co-lead of the movie, which is fair. She is absolutely in that movie. But more often you have the Elisa Vikander thing where it's like you are the lead of this movie and they are now arguing that you are in support to Eddie Redmayne. But they have put Dano in

supporting. Which I think is wrong. No, it's right. Everyone is supporting in this movie. I think like Hirsch and... Something that annoyed me was that someone on the internet who I shall not name but who is connected to this movie okay uh said that michelle williams had like stopwatch more time in this movie than she did in my week with arilyn where she was nominated for best lead actor that movie is

an hour shorter than this movie stop watching is stupid stop telling me how many minutes someone is on screen this movie is 151 minutes long. I still think she's the lead at the moment. I can hear the argument. It's not like one of those things where I'm like outrageous. Yeah. But I just, I don't, I don't know. Anyway, I just think the kid's the lead.

It's about him. Sammy Fableman. I think a film can have multiple leads. It can have a male and a female lead. It can. It's Sam, by the way. Sammy. Yeah, well, he corrects everybody.

Yeah, I know. Do you think he was stevie like is that i wonder if that's i was i was doing the math in my head of was it stevie versus steve or steven yeah i but it must have been you were always you never had an ear griffin griff griff of course i always hated benny benny's tough i just think about it because I was never Dave. Were you ever Davey? Not really. Maybe like a little bit.

No. The other math I was trying to do watching it is they call when anti-Semitism is on the rise. Another thing in this movie that I found very hard to relate to through a present day lens of my own experience. The kids mock him at school by calling him a bagel man. Yes. And I'm like, were they calling him Spiel Bagel? Possibly. Possibly. Yes. He said that he only had one bully. Yeah.

That the second bully is invented. Right. But much like in this movie, he only experienced anti-Semitism once they moved to California. Yeah. He was like, in Arizona, I did feel like we are weird that we are Jewish, but there was never any... Part of it's also

maybe just teen years. Yeah, maybe, but also that it's like, in the movie, it sort of specifies in Arizona, he had a lot of like, Hispanic friends that maybe it was just a little more of a genuine melting pot, because Arizona in the 60s is still like, a growing... It's the last state admitted

until Alaska and Hawaii. I think it'll be a 51. Yeah, definitely. Yes, in our lifetime for sure. Probably Puerto Rico and Washington, D.C. Oh, yes. Those are the two obvious ones. I think that will happen eventually. I know it's now become an insane divisive political issue.

Yeah, it's going to happen actually tomorrow. Two weeks? Yeah, and we're going to have to fucking reprint all the flags. No. Okay, so... Where do you put the stars? Just start a new line? Yeah, that would be funny.

But he... You do the thing where you offset him. Some has tabs, some has lines. Or whatever, yeah. All the interviews and profiles he's been doing for this movie have been fascinating. And he's also been talking a lot about his opinions on the state of the film industry

and the medium and the culture around it and all this sort of stuff. And even saying like, these are things I would not have said two years ago. Like the pandemic has kind of changed me where I now am not even thinking strategically about my status as the elder statesman of America cinema. It's sort of the most populist figure of filmmaking. I'm just giving you my honest answers, my fears and my beliefs on these things. But he, all those pieces I highly recommend reading.

The A.O. Scott interview that ran the New York Times is particularly good. But he was saying, they were like, it's surprising that you experienced more anti-Semitism when you went to California. And he was just like, there's a big difference between California and Hollywood. Yeah. There's a big difference between California and the film industry. I did not experience anti-Semitism in the film industry.

No. But you can feel a far ways away. And I feel like there are a lot of other filmmakers who grew up in California where you're like, Oh, you grew up around the movies. And they're like, I grew up in a very different part of California.

Hollywood felt as far away as if it was on the other side of the country. You do feel that when they get to California, this part of the movie where it's like, he doesn't feel closer to the film. Not at all. It's not like he comes over the hills and we're like seeing palm trees and the Hollywood sign or whatever. He lived in a, sorry, I wanted to, where was it? Saratoga, California, which is in, basically these days you would call it the Silicon Valley.

Because like that's the idea. His dad's a computer engineer. Like that's where he's, so it's in Santa Clara County. But yeah, it's like you're you know many hours from la um and yeah i look i don't know the history of california that well but yeah in the 60s yeah there's less it's different it's very different from what it would be today yes um opening of this movie uh the opening of this movie uh is steven spielberg walks on stage and he says like f is for friend and friend and A is, I don't know what I'm doing. The opening of this movie is Sammy and his parents go to see The Greatest Show on Earth.

Do you start in the car or do you start on the corner outside? I believe you start in the car because the mom's kind of prepping him for, like, you know, like, what the movie's going to be like. like what the movie's going to be like. But there's this very deliberate choice of you are framing it from the level of the kid, from little Sammy, for these first two little bits where the parents' heads are cut off. They are abstracted like Charlie Brown adults.

Yeah, sure. And they are talking like... But it's like you set up the whole dynamic. Much in the way the tree of life is malik being like my two parents represented my the two sides of my voice as a filmmaker my mother was a woman of nature my father was a man of anger and brutality right right and in this it's like his dad is this loving yes but very like thoughtful and quiet and analytical person yes who like is just very logical yes and very cool-headed right and his mother is this like fucking babbling brook of a

person who's like artistic and constrained structured emotional yeah right yes and that vibe is present pretty much immediately and the opening of this movie the whole like it's it's one of these things where it's like the beginning is the whole movie immediately. And the opening of this movie, the whole, like, it's one of these things where it's like the beginning is the whole movie in a nutshell. The ending is the whole movie in a nutshell, right? Like, there's so many scenes in this film that also function as a microcosm of the entire movie.

But here it is, this kid stuck between two adults trying to explain to him what a movie is. He's about to see a movie for the first time in a theater and he cannot even understand what the concept is. You about to see a movie for the first time in a theater and he cannot even understand what the concept is right you don't hear him ask the question you start the film with them mid explanation and her explanation is like it's a dream that you never wake up from but it's not like a bad dream it's a good dream and he's like there's a man in a booth there's a device that has a really strong light bulb talking he's fucking jd amatoing it he's talking

about persistence of vision he's talking about you know 24 frames per second all this stuff yeah go to the street outside you see that it's the greatest show on earth this will be the mill movie and they're still arguing about is he ready for this is it too young what what is this going to be whatever they're cut off i think the first time you see their faces i don't remember if the camera tilts up at that point or if you see them only when you cut into the theater but immediately it's just like this kid is entranced right is but but it also doesn't feel like let me say belfast where it feels like every shot of the kid feels underlined with this is the most important moment of my entire life the the whole fear I had of this movie

is the whole fear you have with any of these movies where it's like John Lennon sees a guitar and is like, oh, I'll fancy me one of those. And you're like, okay. He steps on a beetle, looks at the bottom of his shoe.

I wish I would have met him. Big Jagger sees a rock rolling down the hill. The bee stings his lips. Yeah, right. Looks in the mirror. Maybe I should keep it this way. John Bonham has lead poisoning and then sees the Hindenburg on TV.

I don't know. Just keep doing band names. He keeps eating sushi while watching the Hindenburg. Roy Davies has a kink in his pants. In his neck, he does. In his garden hose. In his garden hose, yes.

He can't water his plants. He can't. I'll say this, Griffin. I don't know if you have this opinion. I've never seen The Greatest Show on Earth. I have not either. It is a best... I've seen most Best Picture winners,

and that's one of the ones I've never seen because it's one of those super long Cecil B. DeMille movies where you're like, oh, aren't those things kind of like bloated and all about spectacle? And I also feel like it gets lumped into that like around the world 90 days thing where you're like,

this is like a frothy, silly movie that just was the most movie that year and they gave it best picture out of like celebrate the industry, celebrate the jobs it created. But does anyone actually think this is a great movie? and i just gotta say the clip they show which is this train crash i was like god damn this gotta watch this fucking thing i want to see this thing tomorrow but what i like cameron bailey programming it's if i'll go like what i like is that this

opening scene is setting up this dynamic of like Arnold being this worry word being like, I think he's too young. He's not going to understand what's happening. This is going to scar him. Right. Yeah. And you're like, how silly to think that perhaps Steven Spielberg wasn't ready to watch a movie. Mr. Movies himself. And he cut to this kid and you're like, oh, the movie fucked him up.

That's what love. That's when I was like i'm leaning in we're dealing with a much more interesting thing here because he starts making these little movies to recreate what he saw and his look up at the screen it's like he's in awe of this thing but it also feels like it's confusion it's he is overwhelmed and then once the crash happens it is fear and then you have this amazing cutback to the car and the kid's like frozen like he just came out of Vietnam. Yes. And the parents are arguing. I told you, I told you, I told you.

Right. And he's got this little model train set, another very like, you know, techie gift that his dad is, you know, interested in. For Hanukkah, every night they give him a new car. Which is cool. And on the final night,

they give him the little, whatever you call it, not the remote give him a new car. Which is cool. And on the final night, they give him the little, whatever you call it. Not the remote, but the little switch. Yeah. He's finally got the full kit. I thought of you. I mean, I never had a model train set. Partly because I lived in the city and we didn't have a house with a big... Because they take up space.

Yes. I had like Brio's, right? I had things like that. Thomas. Little toy trains. I had a Thomas Brio set, I think. Oh, yeah. That was maybe more James's. But I never had like, you set, I think. That was maybe more Jameses.

But I never had the classic with an electric cart. They do seem very cool. It's also one of these generational things where it's like a lot of the guys who grew up with the train sets never got over it. Like Frank Sinatra. There were photo shoots of him in his little conductor outfit with his little hat in his basement with the full Lionel set when he's like 80. Weird. Like ring-a-ding-ding. Ring-a-ding-ding.

Like the coolest man in the world and he's like, let me go fire up some trains. I think it was such a seminal thing for a lot of these guys, the train set. I say this as a man who lives in a fucking apartment full of toys, but go on. You do. But you don't have a train set. I don't, because I'm a big boy. You're a big boy. His mother is the one who realizes it.

He was trying to emotionally process this somewhat scary thing he saw by filming it over and over again and kind of like exerting control over it you know like translating it he first crashes the train on his own and then they're like you almost broke this and then she realizes you need to gain control of this i'm giving you the camera yes the camera's the next step of like i think if you understand that this is how that was made which i think it's like the camera they already have because the dad is using it at christmas i mean at yeah and also there's the great thing very early on where the kids are complaining that their house

has no christmas lights because they're jews yes uh which i love i also early on turned to ben and when genie berlin's on screen and i go that's fucking Jeannie Berlin And I saw his mind blown She's really good in this You wish she was in it more but yeah Sure And I was just so Interested By Spielberg taking us into this kid's story

That way Not like I saw movies and it was a thunderbolt For me to want to make movies It's more like no movies Got to me a thunderbolt for me to want to make movies. Right. And it's more like, no, movies like got to me so intensely. Yes. That I had to work through it by making movies. And not only that, that it's like, you cut, she's sort of like, we'll make this. It's our little secret movie.

Yeah. Right. Then you cut to them watching it. And she's like, that's impressive. Right. And he's like, took a lot of takes to get it right. Right. And you're like, oh, that's the weird combination

of the dad thing that he does have this mind about, like, you have to work on something until you get it perfect. You have to, like, R&D it. And already there's this weird compulsive behavior of like, well, it's not looking right because I don't have animals in the trains. Let me pull the animals out of my other toy

and put them in the train cars. Let me figure out the angles and whatever. There is this savant aspect. It's this thing that everyone talks about with Spielberg, where they're just like, this guy thinks cinematically. He was pretty much fully formed by the time he was 20 and then only got better. It does not feel like there was really a learning curve with him. He would just look at things and go like, why doesn't this look better? And he would read a script and understand immediately how to translate that into images without needing to think it through really um yeah he was the classic right like put the camera there put the camera there i know exactly what we're doing like i'm 20 years old welcome to colombo right so you don't get the sense in this

moment of the kid loves making movies he's found his hobby you just feel like this has helped him conquer this thing and also he's weirdly good at this thing his mother also is just giving providing him the space to do this without being ashamed of it or like you know she's trying to give him the artistic space she feels she lacks yes right like or like that she has been had to sacrifice by becoming a mother and a housewife in 1950s america right like you know it's like well my children she's not you know it feels uh the dad burt he's called burt in the movie burt is not like the kind of dad who's like you cannot do this you must like do your math homework because you will be an engineer. Like,

but he certainly is less, he has less like emotional awareness of like why it might be fun to do like make movies. Right. He's like supportive. He's supportive. The idea she's going to go on TV and play piano, but it's also like,

what a fun thing for you to do one time. There's that kind of energy of like how exciting. Yes. So it's, yeah, it's also like what a fun thing for you to do one time there's that kind of energy of like how exciting yes so it's yeah it's like i appreciate that he is not some like cartoon disciplinarian dad no and she is not some you know just sort of like endlessly perfect angel mother because lord knows you've mentioned the tree of life a couple times we should probably stop mentioning it because this movie is so different from it but but it's interesting the mom in that movie is i mean is an angel she's like literally mother nature right right and she's played by jessica chastain she's always drinking diet coke she's got crazy nails

i'm conflating two performances very funny and uh uh and this, it's like, Mitzi, pretty quickly, you're like, this is a lot of person. This is like a person who feels a little borderline. Yeah, sure. Yeah. This is just like a really day-to-day kind of person, where you're like, this must be such a fun

person to be around, but not all the time. David, I can save us a lot of time. Go ahead. For the second time in two weeks i have to invoke the one thing that sums up this dynamic perfectly they're a real dharma and greg uh yeah there you go one of them's always putting on his suit and tie absolutely reading a book about buddhism upside down she's got a flower in her hair. Flowers don't go in hair. They go in pots.

But this is what's so funny is like they don't have the soil and vinegar relationship. It doesn't feel like either one's being shitty to the other one. Yeah. It does just feel like there are fundamental things that they do not know how to communicate to each other. They both respect each other. Yeah. Right. They're both like very impressed. That's what I mean with the other

he's not dismissive at all of the fact that she's you know artistic and she's neither is she of the computer no he's a very impressive person but they do feel kind of like in separate bubbles well a little bit and there's the incredible moments i think it's the introduction introduction it's the introduction it's the introduction of the ro the introduction. It's the introduction of the Rogan character. Seth Rogen playing Benny. Uncle Benny. Uncle Benny, who is not their uncle. An honorific.

But he is Bert's best friend and coworker. Right, and he is... Works with him at the computer. Basically, the fun dad. It very much feels like he's an adjunct parent. He is joining them on the thing. Sometimes he's taken more role of being the big brother to the kids.

Sometimes it does feel like he is picking up the extra slack. But he's also just like the guy who's like, loosen up, Bert. You know, like, ah, you old workaholic. But he also maybe focuses her a little bit. Like he's sort of this in-between for the two of them.

What I love about this performance by Seth Rogen. Very by seth rogan very well cast who is very well cast yes is that he's not that funny correct he's because i was like oh he's gonna be seth rogan and i i'm curious to see if people view this as a failure on his part because i similarly think it is a strength of the movie he's a regular guy he's a little fun he's a little fun he tells jokes but they're like dad jokes that you're sort of like okay right he's not like because the whole thing with Seth Rogen obviously is he's so charming and that's how he's become this like unconventional movie star he's not he's just like a bit chiller

yeah and a bit more fun yes then Burt who's a little tightly wound and a little, like, obsessive. This moment at the... He's a very rational alternative, not some, like, extreme alternative. This moment at the dinner, right, because they get the film back from the train. Yep, sure.

It's, I think, Final Night of Hanukkah, maybe? Yeah, I don't know. Or whatever dinner it is, right? You just saw the movie. I don't remember the exact... She puts the film reel in the apron. The kid is just dying to go watch it, project it in the is, right? You just saw the movie. I don't remember the exact. She puts the film reel in the apron. The kid is just dying to go watch it,

project it in the closet, right? And he's just sitting here at dinner, like fucking white knuckling it, waiting for it to be over, watching his dad try to explain to the rest of the family, including Jeannie Berlin. Her mom is played by,

I always forget this actress's name, who's so good. I love her. And her name is Robin Bartlett. Right. She, of course, was inside Llewyn Davis and a thousand other things. forget this actress's name who's so good i love her and her name is robin bartlett right she of course that was uh uh in inside lewin davis and a thousand other things uh yeah well she's on i feel like um she's mad about you she was uh she was the someone's mom right sure i can't remember

yeah um but no she was the sister the lesbian sister that's right yeah yeah uh she's a great actress great actress um but this full family dinner that Benny is invited to and Dano's character is trying to explain the breakthrough they just made

in the technology he's like this huge thing these advancements here's what's now possible because of this new device yada yada yada and he's speaking in Greek

to everyone at the table right yeah and she's sort of glowing like she can tell it's exciting she's impressed by how intelligent her husband is and then benny in like two sentences puts it in layman's terms right whatever analogy he comes up with he's like it's imagine it's a mailbox and now we have the key yes right yes and her response is i love your brain and i love it even more when he's able to translate it to me i'm probably fucking up the exact thing it's not like finally someone speaking

my language it's like he's a conduit to understanding the man she does truly love yeah but cannot understand the turnkey for her sometimes and that's he's an elemental part of their relationship and it's like none of them even totally get that her sometimes and that's he's an elemental part of their relationship and it's like none of them even totally get that and the whole family dynamic he's elemental to all the where once they announce we have to move yeah there's a new job on the horizon the first question from everybody is what about benny now here's the thing about seth rogan in this movie looking like a fucking snack oh he's foxaholic huh looks good this era of rogan like he's been like i feel like his like fashion game yeah is like he's just looking so good these

days he yeah he does he's actually you're right he's his uh his current like sort of like i'm a fairly chill guy on twitter who does pottery and like he's got a whole good vibe right now. Yeah. Kind of a sexy vibe. He also is one of these guys who's quietly become a mogul

without doing any of the things that we find unbearable when we talk about these guys becoming moguls because it does feel purely driven by the shit he likes. Right.

It's like I'm now selling weed and pottery because I like doing this. Right. We now produce a bunch of projects. They are all things that we're clearly big fans of and are using our cloud to help get made.

Right. It doesn't feel like he's investing in tech companies and shit. You know? Yeah. But also, like, Seth Rogen always seemed like he was 40. A little bit. Sure. He was, like, the youngest cast member on Freaks and Geeks,

and you were like, why'd they cast this 130-year-old? And you were like, he's younger than the Geeks. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. He was like, yes, you're right. Right? There's like that whole thing. And then even in 40-year-old version, Kevin Smith talks about seeing that movie and being like,

who's this amazing 45-year-old character actor I've never seen before? Yeah. Where's this guy been? It's like, he's 22. He was on two failed TV shows. He's now just turned 40, I think. And it does feel like talking about him

looking good he's like hit the age he was always meant to be he's really in a good spot he's in a good spot and yet how many movies has he made recently well he's pretty he because he does so many other things he's pretty selective about what he chooses to do like long shot american pickle were his first two vehicles in a while. You know what? He's really good in American Pickle. I almost gave him

a fucking nomination that year. That movie is fun. That movie is fun. He's kind of incredibly good in it. He's Donkey Kong in the Mario Brothers movie. He stole the role

from Russell. Yeah, he did. Yeah, so he's great in this movie. I read some interview with him where he sort of talked about like i initially was kind of going for more of a seth rogan thing like i was being a little more funny and garrulous and improv-y and they were like seth take it no no no yes and he was like

okay um so seth rogan is the best friend benny um and the first chunk of the movie when he's little what are some other things happening the whole big thing obviously is that they live in New Jersey, but they moved to Arizona for this career opportunity. They're uprooting Mitzi's life. Uh, and the kids lives, but the kids are fairly small. And the Mitzi maybe has just had a baby or is about to, because there's three sisters. Yes. Yes.

And the big thing is what about Benny? Yes. And it's like, right. Like, Benny is basically, like, clearly not as good a computer engineer as Bert. But Bert keeps kind of bringing him with him to every new job as sort of like using his influence to do it. Because Mitzi is like, we need to have Bert in our lives. Right. I mean, his response is basically like, I just got hired here. I have to make a good impression. I can't flex my muscle yet. I can't demand that they hire Benny. Right. I mean, his response is basically like, I just got hired here. I have to make a good impression. I can't flex my muscle yet. I can't demand that they hire Benny.

Right. And she's like, you're a supervisor. One of your jobs is to hire people. So get to the job and then hire Benny. And it's very, it's always very well done because it's, it's this unspoken thing. Yeah. He doesn't want to ask the question of like, why are you so obsessed with Benny being with us? But he also understands the kids are obsessed with him. Like it's. Right. But he doesn't want to ask the question of like, why are you so obsessed with Benny being with us? But he also understands the kids are obsessed with him. Like it's... Right.

But he doesn't want to acknowledge the jealousy. Of course. And I'm watching this movie. I know the Spielberg story. I know that Mitzi, his mother left his father for the father's best friend. Yeah. I know this. Yeah.

So I'm watching the movie thinking, are they already having an affair? Right. Interesting. The whole thing already absolutely right and the whole thing of course the big twist of this movie is that she doesn't even know she it's it's unconscious for her yeah see i had a different interpretation where i was thinking this is a single man it's the 60s maybe he's gay or whatever sure sure sure yeah yeah yeah but you didn't know right where it's going she's horned up for him. No, no. That's an obvious interpretation.

Yeah. Is he a confirmed bachelor? Right. Why has he spent all this time with this family? Yeah. Yeah. I really didn't see it coming. Yeah.

No, and I do think ultimately, and we're spoiling all this, but like basically this movie leaves me with the impression that like until the moment they actually decide they are getting divorced the two of them have maybe kissed twice right right this is not something where right where um you know right it was an affair that lasted for years and finally came into the open or whatever it's this emotional affair thing and i do think it's a true emotional affair.

You hear about, you witness yourself in your own life, sometimes these things where it's like, here's a happily married couple, and then there's this weird third person. Right. And sometimes it feels like it is one member of a marriage being like, I understand there is some dynamic of their personality that I cannot meet and they need this other person. Yeah. And I think there are healthy boundaries

on this. I do not believe this slips into other territories. I do not believe this becomes physical. Right. I don't watch sports games with them. You know, I think sometimes you even see that with like two couples and you're like these two couples hang out and the two people in the middle have this one thing they like to do together and everyone's kind of fine with it yes but they're always the questions there's always the questions and with someone like benny when the kids also sort of view him as an uncle that he is a family member he is a part of the unit he is so deeply entrenched in the thing It's even more complicated I don't remember much else with him as a little kid What else is there?

There's that tornado sequence Yeah, which is the sort of early sign Where you're like, oh, she's quite manic She's given to doing Plainly irrational things Right, tornado's coming She rounds up all the kids She hands him the baby and then takes all the adult kids Or you know walking kids yeah they don't put like throws them in the car

and just like drive he's just left it right and was like we got to see this yeah and it's one of those things that feels like a story you hear from a friend where they're like this is something that happened to me as a kid that when i was a kid i was like well that was fun and crazy yeah and then with the perspective of adulthood i'm like what the hell were my parents doing or like what the hell was my brother doing or whatever you know like what was that here's the thing i love about this movie yeah is that uh invoking the bad people but like uh jeffrey wells the voldemort of the online film community, right? Was at our screening. Yeah. Looking like a real warlock.

And he posted his review of this that was just like, this movie is so self-indulgent, you would not care about this kid's life if this kid didn't grow up to be Steven Spielberg. And you're like, well, guess what? He did. He did. And that's the fucking framework we're all watching this movie under.

Right. Right? Yeah. You understand the building blocks that this is working towards. Part of the narrative tension of this movie is knowing and then this guy goes on

to make this movie and also all the other movies that have like changed American culture over the last 50 years and all that sort of shit. Yeah, but get over it. Get over it.

There are other, and I'm not trying to throw any of these movies under the bus, but some of these other memoir-y, master filmmaker revisits of childhood movies, I do feel get a little more

self-indulgent because they're just caught up in the day-to-day, the living, the whatever. Spielberg is such a natural storyteller and has such an eye on the audience. And an entertainer, yes.

An entertainer, that every scene in this movie has a real narrative point to it, even if it is not a linear A to B plot. Right. Every scene is giving you a very specific story beat that at least builds out

the characters in the world, right? And the way you're talking about this scene feeling like the story that an adult tells later and now has like a new perspective on, this movie to me, and this will sound like a backhanded compliment,

is not at all. I've recently got way back into listening to WTF. I've been locking the gates left and right. Well, you have. This movie feels like the best episodes of WTF where you're like, here's an adult who has gone through decades of therapy, is now like 50 years old, is talking to Marc Maron, and is able to isolate the 15 stories in their life that function as a microcosm of who they are and how they turned out the way they did. Right. Right. Right.

He is good at it. You know, you listen to the Rosie Perez episode and it's just like, she has the 15 crystallized moments. I should listen to the

Rosie Perez episode. It's so good. But she has the moment where she's like, I remember I was a child and this happened and someone said this to me and I've spent the last

30 years unpacking this. And it's like, every scene in this feels like the scene you talk about forever spielberg in this uh i think it was the scott interview was saying how the times you can read it this movie feels so therapeutic it almost feels young in terms of him working through all these things right and he was like what's your relationship with therapy been and he's like

it's making movies amen it's always been my thing i abstract it i work in metaphor and he's like have you ever seen a therapist and he said when i was like 18 i saw a therapist to get out of the draft sure classic and i saw him for like five months and at the end of those five months when i wanted him to think i was crazy it turned out that he was very pro-war and he would not sign sure so what didn't even work so it was a waste and he was like that's my entire relationship with therapy across my life but it does feel like these are the scenes where he's worked through these stories for the last 60 plus years and now understands the importance of what they represent right yes you go forward to arizona going forward to arizona you leap to 16-ish year old Sammy Fableman played by Gabriel LaBelle who's in

The Predator but I don't remember I don't either if he had a big role in that I don't think so that's like his kind of his only film credit

he's Canadian his father is like a Canadian character actor sure he's got a handful of like TV crowds a couple little movie parts but it was mostly like

what's filming locally yeah I think he's from Vancouver I want to say he sure is yeah so it's like a handful of TV crowds, a couple little movie parts, but it was mostly what's filming locally. I think he's from Vancouver, I want to say. He sure is. Yeah, so it's like a lot of stuff films there. His dad is like a job in Vancouver. His dad's some character actor. TV character actor, and he would start getting little parts and things. He's quite good.

The vibe in Arizona is happy, I would say, by and large. Especially once Benny's locked in there. Exactly. Benny is there. The dad is an unqualified success. He's clearly like... He's killing it. Streets ahead on computers. Back when computers had doors and shit.

Streets ahead. Streets ahead. One of the weirdest community jokes. Very funny. Very funny. He's got these sisters, Julia Butters. We love to see her. Yeah. Really fun. This is the little girlters. We love to see her. Yeah.

Really fun. This is the little girl from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Ben. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The child actor is playing the sister with the glasses. Yeah, she's the oldest sister. It's one of these people who are watching this movie who are like, I guess she is going to be, she's going to be around forever. She's fucking great.

I thought these were all great kids' performances. Yeah. Which usually kids' performances, they can really just stick out. And like stick in your craw. Yeah, sure. Kind of feel a little over. As we move forward to some of the high school performances, I think they're two incredible standouts here.

But all the kids are good. And they don't feel Spielberg kiddy. No. And like some of the stuff with him, like when they're dressed up as the mummies, and they're going like, ah! It's so cute. That's when he's still a little boy but it is yeah that's when he's a boy right you're trying to remember there's a lot of these little movies you see the problem solving of like how do you do a tooth extraction candy corn ketchup in the mouth right

the toilet paper rolls all this stuff is cute but also it's all cute and you're like is the whole movie going to be this no it's pretty much one montage yeah exactly that shows him working out the math of like how do you fake things on screen right and and also just you getting the idea of like his sisters is these sort of willing participants in his little experiments right you know in his little in his little hobby and his mom's sort of going like oh those kids and the dad being like what is this thing i wish he would like do anything else right yeah um well not being completely dismissive, but whatever. No, it's this balance of him being like, there's scenes that I love so much

where he's blown away by the ingenuity of the way he's able to figure things out. Right. How did you create the bullet holes? I poked pins through the film itself. I mean, that's the best. That's like their biggest moment of connection. And he's like, that's brilliant.

That's brilliant. So when are you going to start applying that energy to math? Do you want to go to MIT? Right. Rather than saying like, my kid is clearly

incredible at this thing. Yes. He's like, if he could just shift that ingenuity over to something that actually matters, that conversation of like,

but when are you going to like actually make something? Yeah. Because it's like, I feel like film school at that point yes is still a fairly new like it's the 60s where that really becomes yes a concept that you could take a four-year college program yeah to like in film so like cal arts nyu these kinds of places you know like they really start expanding in the 60s but it is so like obviously though film is a long-standing thing yeah it is a blue collar trade yeah i feel like and this is just the beginning of it more being like a professional class and

his generation spielberg's generation is the first generation to actually like come out of film school and have careers like it's it's coppola and it's lucas and it's scorsese on the east coast you know yeah they're the first guys to sort of get permission from their parents to actually pursue this and make something of themselves yeah it feels like that's an actual job that that moment where dino i know we're jumping around a little bit where dino's like let's just jump right i don't remember the exact progression well this is the thing at this point it becomes hard to track it in order but where dano's like um when i was a kid i used to look at things and try to figure out how they were made like i'd look

at this car and this radio and i'd want to figure out how to make things and he's like i make things i make movies i do the exact same thing you're talking about we are this we have the same brain about this right and then he's like no but like real things like things that people use because it's ephemeral a film right you know but it's that thing that's so heartbreaking where it's like he is a very sweet man he loves his children dearly yeah he is so caught up in his own worldview that he's just like you need to think about things the same way i do because that has worked well for me he cannot understand the kids shifting in their behavior a little bit like he's like i used to look at this car you should look at cars the way i look at cars and try to figure out how they're made

it's funny because of course it's so one-to-one the mom is so different right and she's so encouraging of all this stuff but and you're like so how did this marriage come about but obviously it's like they're two jewish people at a time where like you're gonna marry another jewish person and they they do have this sort of yin yang thing of like they're good together yeah you know they're fire and ice yeah yeah and we were talking about this the other day off mike but like that thing for up until know, for a long period of time. Basically, if you wanted to date someone, you got married when you were 20. If you wanted to live with someone.

If you wanted to date them beyond like going to dinner with your parents or whatever. Right. Marriage was like a pretty quick step. It was like day three. And then it's like now have four babies. Right. It's like, oh, now you don't have a career. And what's almost more astonishing is that you're like they work better than you think they would for two people who probably got married three months after mating each other that's a good

question i wonder if i can find out when they got married let's find out um because spielberg is the oldest right the the all the girls are younger than him correct um so arnold spielberg was born in 1917 okay and he married uh leah in 1945 okay the war obviously sort of interrupted things so they were 28 okay like you know so yeah um but he was arnold spielberg was served in uh world war ii sure do they and they lost a lot of family in the Holocaust. Sure. Like, you know, Spielbergs. Other Spielbergs.

Do they allude to Dano's character being in the war? They do, because when he's making the war movie... Because, like, the ham radio... Right. There's the scene where, I don't know if it's, like, the gym coach or whatever, when he screens the war movie, and they're like,

so, that's based on your dad's memories, huh? Right. Your dad's experiences in the war, and he's like, he doesn't really talk about it. Right. Which I think, obviously, was a very common phenomenon. But it does feel like, yes. It is invoked mostly through the prism of the war film.

Got it. And him sort of asking his dad if the details are right, and people being like, oh, this must be your dad's story. And it's clear that it's a lockbox kind of thing. How about when, during the shooting of the war film, he directs his actor? Well, that sequence is so good. And, like, gets him to, like, really feel it.

Because I feel like, like you're saying, so much of what we're seeing when we're seeing him make movies is the problem solving, right? But it's usually technical stuff. And it's so clever to watch him do the thing like poke the holes. It's visual ingenuity. It's sort of magic shit. That is like one of his earliest examples

that he clearly remembers of me like interacting with an actor and getting him there. Like, you know. And that he gets so worked up that he's feeling it when he's describing it to the guy. And when the guy,

he's like trying to direct him and the guy goes, like, what, you mean like acting? And it's like trying to direct him and the guy goes like what you mean like acting and it's like right at up until this point everyone who's been in one of his movies is basically like i am also a technician my job is to stand in the place he tells me to stand right my job is not to be an emotional conduit for anything and when the kid asked him that you're like is spielberg gonna make some snipey joke back? And I'm like, yes, you're an actor. Be an actor in my movie.

And then he's kind of taken aback and he's like, yeah, I guess, yes, that is what I want. Right, right, right. It is a two-way thing. The kid's open to it, this big kid. Yes, yeah. But they both need to in real time figure out what is this actually. But also, like, there is that vulnerability, right, of like, this is the 50s or the early 60s like you know boys aren't supposed to be emotional like it's a little tough for this kid to access it i think this kid's i'm watching the scene going this kid's gonna revolt he's gonna

go this is dorky i don't want to do this and said they're both like acting huh so what would you say to me next and then i would like feel this and then of course the ultimate sort of gag is that the kid just can't he keeps walking right he can't uh get out of the scene fucking spielberg restraint they don't cut back to the kid you don't see a close-up of him with tears down his face you just end the scene on cut and the kid's still walking off into the distance and you realize like oh he just went somewhere i gotta see this movie this movie rips all right all right so what are some other things in this sort of middle period where it's like he's getting into the cinema? Yeah, I mean, he's figuring out that thing

with the fucking wooden board in the desert where if they step on it, it looks like a gunshot went off. Like, all this shit is so good. But no, but like, I'm trying to think of other like emotional... Well, so he's filming the war movie. Yeah.

The mother dies. Which is the Robin Bartlett character Which is such a wrenching scene It's quite upsetting It's very well done Without being too nasty or traumatic It's just sad And there's been this step up of the equipment

Right He keeps on getting his father He's getting a better camera He gets an editing bay A little baby thing, right? He's got the little thing that's truly just the, like, the clipper. Snip, snip, yeah.

The clipper with the glue. He's projecting it, you know. I mean, you have that one moment, it's another moment early on where you're like, it's just going to be too Spielberg-y, but the image in the hands as a little kid, right? But what he doesn't have is basically, like, a moviola where he can watch and cut.

Right, but he does eventually get. Well, it's at this point. Because it's the difference between just like basically having like the clipper. I'm using dumb terms here. But you see him running the projector back and forth, then having to unspool it, hold it up to the light, try to figure out where the cut is versus this. There is that Spielberg vibe also where he's like, listen up, kids kids you know how fucking hard it was to do this when i was a kid

you know and then having to like take the different sections tape them label the tape to the desk all the shit i love i mean this was how i i was like making fucking super eight films oh boy mr spielberg over here all i'm saying is watching this i I've got to fucking dig this shit out of my closet and do this again. I would fuck around with my uncle's digital camera, but I would make movies in, or movie, you know, I would like do things in camera. Like, you know, you'd like stop to edit it. I had no idea how to video edit. No, I still don't. No, I was doing like fucking physical editing like this.

I had a VHS tape tape and we me and my friends like a classic like on the shoulder big vhs camera sure yeah yeah and we made our own jackass what did what you made a jackass film but those are dangerous what was it called poison potpourri patrol yeah i think you may have mentioned this you certainly mentioned it to me i forget if you mentioned it on air. I've been missing, or rather I should say, I've been trying to track down this tape for so long. It's like one of my old friends.

If you do, we're going to get a VHS player. We're going to celebrate it on this. For sure. Right here. Okay. But so, he asked for this new equipment.

He tries to explain to his dad the importance of it. There's sort of the argument with the mom of like, just support it. It's not that much money. Because he says, what, that he used, oh,

that's what, Jeannie Berlin gives him some of the money. Yeah. Because it's like, he bought extra reels of film. Jeannie Berlin forwards him the Hanukkah money.

He says he needs this one thing. And Jeannie Berlin, who is playing Bert's dad. Yes. Right? Yes. Bert's mom, I'm sorry,

dad. I was like, why did I? She seems to be like, she's the slightly more classy, judgmental, upper middle class. She frowns on them using paper plates and paper utensils and all that,

which I love. She's such a good character detail. She complains about the brisket. Early on in the movie. It doesn't taste as good on a plastic fork. Early on in the movie, they sort of say like, well, they don't use the utensils, they use

paper plates, they use disposable tablecloths because she's got piano hands. She doesn't want to damage her hands. Right. And as it goes on, it's just like... She resists domesticity. She doesn't want to be a domestic housewife. It's like the thing that keeps her from fully committing to this is just like, well, I throw

it all away. Yeah. Yeah. But he writes, collecting the scorpions, he's scourging to get their money, he makes the big plea to Dano, the family's fighting about whether or not to get him this editing thing, right? And then the dad buys him the thing.

Right. They've gone on the camping trip. I'm sorry. The camping trip happens before the mom dies. So they go on the camping trip, he's filming everything obsessively, there's the moment

where she's dancing in front of the fire and you can see through her dress and the girls are so embarrassed they're so scandalized yes and they're like why aren't you doing anything about this why are you filming it and it's like because this is good footage what do you mean this is it is the recurring theme in this film is this kid knows what looks good on camera he gets it he sees and we will talk about the confrontation with the bully later which is sort of like a huge, huge, huge thing in the film.

But it's the same kind of thing. He's like, look man, I shoot things they look good on camera. I don't know what to tell you. Right.

It is what it is. It truly is. Not like the kid is like destined for this but this is what I'm talking about him being a savant where he doesn't

quite understand either how he does things well or why he is driven to do these things. Now so part of the dancing is also he's kind of in between yes the father and benny yes they're both watching her dance with a totally different context yes and it's just i don't know there's just something about

how that all plays out that just this you know this microcosm of the bigger thing that's happening in the movie. So then the mom dies. The dad gets him the new Moviola editor and says, like, I got this for you. This is the favor. The favor you owe me. You have to cut together the footage from the camping trip.

Yeah. And obviously the mom is still in this great funk from her mother dying. And like, she's imagining phone calls from her mother's ghost. Which is, like, also effective and kind of crazy. Yeah. But what's so interesting dying and like she's imagining phone calls from her mother's ghost which is right like also

effective and kind of crazy yeah um but um what's so interesting about this is two things one the fact that sammy is like what i don't want to do that which is like so reminiscent to me of being a teenager where you like you would do these callous things yes even though it's so plain you're such why the request is being made right like yes you're a stupid teenager but so like he knows it's a it's a normal thing for his day like what an easy trade it's that weird thing of like teenagers are more sensitive and in so many ways more emotionally attuned than anyone else but it's like their receptors are so sensitive that it hurts to acknowledge emotions.

Like you turn to this callous defense because you're just like, I'm so aware. I can read everyone now. Yeah. I can't block it out. Fuck you. I don't know. I'm not going to do this. And it goes from being the pragmatic defense of like, well, I have like 10 kids.

I'm busy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I can't delay the shoot a week. I have to do this and that. And it's just like, you don't understand how important this is to your mother. And this is the shit I'm busy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I can't delay the shoot a week. I have to do this and that. And it's just like, you don't understand how important this is to your mother. And this is the shit I'm talking about, where Dano, even though he has not been

supporting the movie thing the whole time, even though he's like, when do you get over this? He's basically like, you making this is the one thing that would cheer your mother up. This weird power you have. And he's like, who cares? It's a movie camping trip. It's like, it will mean so much to her that you did this. Yeah. and he's like who cares it's a movie camping trip it's like it will mean so much to her that you did this

and he's right I just bought this for you you have to fucking cut this footage he's not wrong but at the same time the whole time I'm watching it I'm being like why can't you talk to your wife you know like where he's like this is the only thing that's going to work

and I'm like why is that the only thing that's going gonna work even though i'm kind of like you're probably right yeah it's he likes the language and it's also just that like cinema is this ecstatic expression it's things that are intangible but it's also like he's saying it's the gift of like i made this for you yeah i'm like you know i i that is you know so you love to get a little homemade gift. It's this captured moment in time. That fucking camping trip is like one of the last moments of her life

before the mother dies. It's capturing her in a purer state, a simpler state, you know? And then obviously the big twist that we already sort of referenced, it's that like when Sammy's looking for the footage. David, David, something humongous happens right before this shows up her shows up right after this conversation so it turns out that uh mitzi's uncle yes right that's who he is is um a living jewish lion

and he emerges he's escaped from the circus he's she's gotten this phone call that she does imagine phone call from the ghost of her mother saying a man is going to show up don't let him in the house yeah right right right right like this this warning yeah right dano picks up the phone is like there's no one there and then he just arrives he arrives in a cab and he's uncle he's freaking out this is uh boris uncle boris we don't talk to him he's been been cast aside. Is there a reason why? Should I not let this man in the house? Is he a dybbuk? Did you notice the temperature symbol

that arrived in the right corner of the screen how it started getting hotter? It's a fucking thermostat performance. Yes, that's a very good point. Thank you for teeing him up there, Ben. Thank you, Ben. Uncle Boris worked in the circus, right?

Uh-huh. And worked in the pictures. He worked in the movies. Like, silent pictures. Sort of the idea. The silent movies. And he is a garrulous, hairy Jew. Dirty show folk.

He is exactly what Dano is worried will happen to his son if he pursues his career. And it's like, he is exactly what dano is worried will happen to his son if he pursues his career and it's like he is this but he's also he's like hollywood's past back when it really was right this like blue collar thing yes and even below blue collar right it was like these like traveling sort of like entertainer thing you know almost like a carny or whatever like yeah there's even that moment where he's like i started working in movies in 1927 he's like 27 jazz singer first talking he's like i didn't work on that one like it's he doesn't have the credits that are just like he's you made an impact yeah but he is he's like art is within me it's within your mother yes and it's within you

and i see this well there's he's not like kid you gotta make movies you got the gift he's like art is a tornado like he's terrifying he's like you and i were addicts yes yeah yeah because there was no kicking us off of this thing the whole thing in this movie is that spielberg is saying like there has always been a camera between me and everybody yeah and like i can't i mean like look i just want it's the lead of my review but it's the most important shot of the movie is later in the movie when they're announcing the divorce to the kids he sees himself filming it in the mirror yes which is like you know one of the most like kind of impressionistic things spielberg has

ever put on a film because it's not happening but he's just like i'm i know i'm filming i'm thinking about how i would film this yes that's that's what it is here you are yes watching the movie i did film it yeah 60 years later well we'll get to the other one but that fucking knocks me out but uh but yes no hershey's like he is this omen almost he is like a ghost of christmas yet to come right it's not like i'm telling you kid you got the gift you got to pursue this there's the little bit of the like your mother will it'll break her heart if you don't but it's more about because she gave this up right and she's never going to be happy now you need to avoid that basically, here's your death sentence. You have no choice. You have the thing.

I see it in you. It's incurable. Right. Your life might suck. Yeah. There's a really good chance your life might suck. And even if you find success in your field, it's probably going to come at the expense of your relationships and your family. But bad news.

This is who you are. Right. Here's where it's going. He rips his shirt open. Demands they sit shiva they're ripping the shirt open it's so good the whole thing there is also just that thing that we've all had i feel like where it's like a relative or weird family friend comes over and it's like they're getting your room or they're sleeping on the couch or whatever and you're just like i don't like this.

And it's like, well, too bad. Like it has to happen. Yes. You know, that feeling as a teenager or as a kid where you're just like, this is like out of routine.

This is, this is troubling. Look, I've long advocated for Oscars for all living taxi cast members. I mean, I think he's going to be, he got an applause break in my, it was a premiere screening. People are jazzed up, but, uh, right. You know, to be... He got an applause break in my... It was a premiere screening.

People are jazzed up. But, right? You know, he got a huge reaction. Even the people who seem a little muted in their response to this film are like, obviously, the Hirsch thing is a knockout. It is? Yeah.

I have a memory. Like, I know what you're talking about, David, and it's usually adults who are not good with kids. Yeah, often. Like, they have no way of speaking to you like other adults do. Which, this guy is... It's just not in are not good with kids. Yeah, often. They have no way of speaking to you like other adults do. It's just not in them. Yes.

But there's also something so intriguing about that kind of adult, too. Right. So then, at the behest of Judd Hirsch, who implores him, you have to do this. Why are you being selfish? Make the fucking camping movie, right?

He watches the footage and discovers the most devastating thing imaginable. him you have to do this why are you being selfish make the fucking camping movie right he watches the footage and discovers the most devastating thing imaginable it's like it's it's exactly what judd hirsch just said basically coming true you have no choice but to do this you cannot avoid this by the way it's gonna break your fucking heart and it's so carefully presented where it's like he's not seeing them like kiss no but he's just like over and over seeing them like be together yeah and hold hands and chat and be emotional and being off to the side of things i'm sorry i keep on so sensitive invoking this a.o scott interview but like there's whatever it's like kind of a big interview yeah he doesn't give a lot of there was the holly reporter piece is really good too but um scott was like is how much is that like a a hollywoodized a clean narrative version of what

happened he's like that is exactly what happened and he's like i find that fascinating because i feel like one of your greatest skill sets as a director has been being able to communicate a complicated story beat, emotional beat, character, you know, piece of character development through a gesture, through emotion, not needing dialogue to explain things. Yeah. That you can have a subtle shift in physicality

that's maybe not even at the center of the frame completely changed the temperature of the movie. Right. And it's like, yeah, it probably is because of that. You know. It's probably because I fucking obsessively watched this footage

trying to analyze the body language of what was happening in the background of a frame. It's such a, you know, deep thing for him,

clearly. Yes. And it's very cool that he put it on screen for me to watch while eating some sort of like half-stale popcorn. So,

it also is what it's like to be an editor it really i think portrays the like obsessive having to go back to the little tiny detail yeah the repetition yes right because you have that earlier ring no thanks don't want to do it fun like i find it very relaxing yeah um i haven't done it a while while. You now go to the period where Sammy's a little shit. He puts down the camera because he's like, you know, toxic. This thing has only brought me misery. Right.

And I think that's why he becomes a little shit, because he's lost his cigarettes. He's lost his crutch. It's like his only form of communication. It's only for himself. And then obviously also, very understandablyably he's completely consumed by this new perspective on his parents that he can't emotionally handle which like you know is a very understandable reaction this is basically when he starts talking in the movie he's had so little dialogue up until

this point it's like now that he doesn't have the camera and he's forced to actually engage with the world around him as a person he does does not like it. He is unhappy. And it's that thing that, like, everyone can tell in the family. Yeah, that something's up with Sammy. Yeah, and it's so pointedly being directed at his mom, and then trickled down to Benny. Is this when she's...

They do the premiere of the war movie. Yes, which is awesome. She comes over, says, I'm so proud. He walks away. Benny comes over, is like, way to go, man. Right. go man right fucking he gives benny the coldest coldest shoulders right and then uh she says i'm tired benny's gonna drive me home i you guys continue celebrating and he's just like fucking insult to injury they're continuing to do now i'm clocking it in real time right and again as i said in this movie when i'm watching and i'm like do do they are they

having an affair or not especially when they're going to the car together i'm like are they moving are they gonna drive to like fucking lover's leap right fucking a car and then he's gonna drop her off but of course the whole thing is like she doesn't even know she's doing no she sort of knows yeah like she once confronted with it of course she knows but like you know like she doesn't know that she's doing she just wants to get the ride home with him because she prefers him. It's the unspoken thing. Yeah. And I truly do sympathize with her in so many ways,

which is so crucial to the film. And the thing she says about how Bert kind of kills with kindness where it's like, he's so nice and understanding that it's tough to be mad at him, which only makes you more frustrated with him. Yes. Yeah.

It's a complicated set of emotions. Absolutely. Yes. He's not some easy villain and she's not some easy villain no absolutely not but but but for sammy at this moment she is of course right how dare you when does she slap him on the back is that when they're in california like is that after the move no that's still while they're in arizona yeah yeah that's they have the premiere Then she's serving breakfast He's being such a little shit He's like on the swim team or whatever The swim instructor test And he makes some snide comment

And she like goes like Why are you continually Being an asshole to me Like she calls it out He like storms off in a huff He says something very cutting says something it's about the eggs as well there's a whole thing with the eggs and she slaps him on the back and leaves a mark which it just again feels like one of those things spielberg has never forgot right like one

of those sort of like indelible she basically impulsively as a knee jerk in response to what he says goes to slap him in the face and spielberg turns away, and so the hand directly connects, like, in between his shoulder blades. So it's also, like, this averted face slap. Right. She didn't mean... That would almost be worse, but yet there's this, like, big red mark on his back. She goes in to try to apologize to him, and he shows her

the phone footage. Right. And it is as powerful for her as it is for him. Like, it's a thunderbolt moment. Also, just, like, Mom, go sit in the closet. This is where I keep the trauma. Now you have to walk in here, and now we have to share this. Yeah. It's good.

She's really good in this moment. She's really good in this movie. It's a very big performance, and I think I put some people off. Like, it's a very big performance. I think this put some people off like it's a very big performance i think this is who she really was as a person i agree and also right yeah i think spielberg cast her partly i mean she's a very talented actor but like she kind of looks like his mom like when you look at his mom uh she kind of looks like let's acknowledge dano and williams both feel like the waspier versions of his parents. He talked about needing to cast based on mood

and based on the feeling they evoked in their previous work and whatever. Everyone else in the family, like, I mean, obviously, when you get to Hirsch and Jeannie Berlin and Rogan even as, like, you know, their Jewish friend and Gabriel LeBel and everyone, everyone else reads more Jewish.

Armageddon time is coming out right around the same time where it's similarly like you're like Anthony Hopkins, Anne Hathaway, and Jeremy Strong are all doing strong New York Jewish dialects. Well, no, not Hopkins. Oh, right, because Hopkins is English. No, the character's English because James Gray's grandfather was English. He was a Jew who emigrated

to England. When we had talked about this, you hadn't dug in to whether... The difference I will say, I will say... Like, there's... Look, I think there's a... I think the whole thing... We're all...

Me and you are both Jewish. And we talk about this a lot. It's not a thing where I'm, like, forbidden. But it is a thing I sometimes get touchy about. I'm probably touchy about it because I do act to some degree where I'm just, like, in these movies that are explicitly Jewish texts

about Jewish families that are written and directed by Jewish filmmakers. Why are they so loathe to actually put Jews in these roles? And a lot of it is, unfortunately, fucking bankability, names, whatever. The thing with Armageddon time especially, I feel like it's like that movie was made for very little money. He needed to get. He needs names. Not just names, names that are available. Right.

And this one is a little different because this is Steven Spielberg we're talking about. He more has his pick of who he wants to cast but i think he was like these are the two people who remind me he obviously cast the people he wanted to cast and that's fine like my friend i can't argue with either of these performances yeah no neither can i i think they're excellent performances my friend will not name has this whole kind of like these fucking jewish boys can't even they cast shixes they can't't acknowledge like their Jewishness to this day, even though even they're making the Jewish movie. I do think there's a little part of that.

And I do think there is a deeply ingrained. In Armageddon time, I actually kind of meant like in a meta way, because it's like they're trying to assimilate, you know what I mean? Which I guess is sort of true. And we were almost even talking around this a little bit in the Eyes Wide Shut episode.

But I do think there is this aspect of these guys where it's like there is anti-Semitism in our culture. The anti-Semitism maybe doesn't exist in the film industry in terms of the people you're interfacing with because the industry is very Jew heavy, right? Disproportionately so to other industries in America. But I do think there is an ingrained anti-Semitism that when it comes to actually making the movies, you're like, people aren't going to like it if it's too Jewish, right? No, I do think, yeah. Even though you have Jewish studio heads

and investors and producers and everyone working on the movie, they're like, but we obviously have to take a half step back. There's that little feeling of the rejection from the audience. The one I always throw out that's the most galling to me is This Is Where I Leave You. And it's mostly galling because the movie's bad.

It's a bad movie. Directed by a Jew, right? Directed by a Jew, based on a book written by a Jew. And it's all about sitting Shiva. Is there any Jew in it? Jane Fonda, Jason Pateman, Tina Fey, Adam Driver, who I give a pass to.

Why do you give him a pass? Because he's got the right neuroses. So does Tina Fey. Tina Fey, I think, is a little off. She's Greek. It's the whole thing where, and this is my counterpoint to when my Jewish friends get mad about, quote unquote, Jew face. Where I'm like, bitch. I say bitch, which is rude.

Because my friends are nice people. It's how you talk. And it really is how he talks, folks. We've been getting away with playing Italians for years. This is know mediterranean people for years lord knows we got away with playing some other people we probably should have been playing you know like it's always been this kind of like you're white or you're ethnic white you know and and i do think it's tough to shed some of that so i see tina fey playing at you. I'm like, eh, she's Greek. She's funny. She gets it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

And maybe I shouldn't. No, it's a weird balance of your sense. I mean, the movie's just not good. And now he's making a Star Wars. No, he's not. I'm making a Star Wars. I am too. That's so crazy we haven't talked about this. J.D. Diller just announced in an interview, he made this film, Devotion.

He was like, sadly, I don't think my Star Wars project is going to happen. I'm like, you had a star wars project i never even heard about this no everyone has had a star wars project yes ben also is now doing two star wars projects i'm really excited i think they're gonna be good yeah i mean you know darth stupid idiot finally needs to grace the big screen he's wet as hell alu g Gash. Yeah. Okay. All this to say, the thing Spielberg said was that the main performance that convinced him to cast Michelle Williams

is Gwen Verdon, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Totally. He mentioned Blue Valentine as sort of like, that's my favorite Michelle Williams performance, but he said,

that's when she really registered for me the emotional depths, the technical skill of this person. But Fosse Verdon, he was like, that's my favorite Michelle Williams performance, but he said, when I saw Fosse-Verdon... That's when she really registers for me the emotional depths, the technical skill of this person, but Fosse-Verdon, he was like, that's kind of my mother. But Fosse-Verdon, he was right. He was like, I had never seen her do something so transformative or whatever. But also the hyper-fragile consummate performer. This person who is like a ball of light and energy,

but also it's all on the surface, you know? Bruises so easily um yeah so they have this devastating uh confrontation they do yes with his mother yes and um and then shortly thereafter they have to move to california right gets a new job yeah and it's the same thing where she's like you better bring benny and he's like i can't like this is and it's the new job is ibm right he's like, I can't. Right. And the new job is IBM, right? He's like, he's made it to the top of the mountain. And he's like, I have already taken Benny further than he would have gotten on his own. Exactly. And it's like, I cannot, you know, essentially put myself on the line right away here and be like, you have to hire my best friend.

Right. And she's like, it will break my heart. But this is the thing. It does feel like he can do it. And he's like, unconsciously, he's like, no more. This is... Right, right, right. And it just feels like everything's, like, you know,

splitting at the seams. Yes. A little bit. Everyone is finally like, we need to speak the unspoken things a little bit. Sammy Fableman goes to cash in, trade in his old camera. Uncle Benny is there. At the counter. Yes. One of these scenes that really gets to me because like i have this thing in a movie where i'm like when someone gets

something yeah it's like hey i bought you this thing and the kid declines it because it's like an emotional moment in the movie i'm like oh come on man that cost that guy money like don't you have it's sort of like the same thing as i always say, where people don't eat the food. I'm like, guys, don't waste it. Take the camera. Look, there's something so sweet to the fact that Rogan is doing this, right? It's very sweet,

but it initially, you understand Sammy's thing of like, you're trying to buy me off. You're trying to be the fun dad you've always been. And now I see through you and I don't want it. And the whole speech Benny has where he's like's like it's gonna break your mother's heart if you don't make movies anymore yeah and i think he also understands that like he's been a balance between the two parents yeah and if they move away his mother is going to be a mess and his dad's probably

going to win the argument that you shouldn't make the movies anymore. Right. Right? And you already seem to be doing that. Maybe I don't totally understand why. Although I imagine Michelle Williams has communicated the thing about the film to him. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't think she ever did. He clearly knows that Sammy has picked up on at least the vibe. And what starts to feel like, is this a buy-off thing becomes like i am actually doing this out of the genuineness of my heart and to convince you of that i will own up to you hating me right like he basically says i understand why you hate me and it is fine right i get it the thing i remove this item from that equation right you need to have this and you need to keep doing this. Turn me into the enemy. That is okay.

Right. And the thing I figured was going to happen was that he would eventually end up moving with them. But he doesn't. No. Like when she remarries, when she leaves him and gets with him, she's leaving. She goes back to Arizona. She goes back. Yeah.

And I sympathize with her in so many ways. One, just that she's sort of this constrained person. It's so difficult to just, like, do the housewife thing. Yeah. You know, we just made every woman do the housewife thing. Here, have four kids. Like, you know. We didn't talk about the scene.

The piano scene. Right, with the nails. That's when they're still in Arizona, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That scene is really, really gutting. Yeah. And it's played for laughs. Well, because at first, when you're hearing the nails tapping, I'm like, oh, that's such a good Spielberg memory detail.

Little detail. And you're like, oh, no. You can't forget. The whole scene's about the nails. Yes. She's giving this recital. She's got these beautiful long nails. She's going to perform on television.

She's got these giant long red nails. And they're like, it sounds like a typewriter you cannot go on tv with these no one will hear you playing and of course dano's response is like well especially with the mics they have like he's like a technical level yeah and so they clip her nails kind of against her will yes uh in this way where she's laughing the whole time but you're also like jesus i don't know like there's something weird about it there's something kind of sexy about it and they're both because rogan's holding her yeah and then after they do the first one she's like that's enough of that i'll go in and do the rest myself yeah it then becomes yeah and it's just one of those

yeah like encapsulations of like she could be with the joke, could be kind of, like, really up and manic, and then suddenly kind of, like, completely out of it. And, you know, it's hard to read her moods. Are they suppressing her, like, spirit? Why are they making her conform to having normal-sized nails? And it's like, because you want to play music. It's not like we're trying to force you to become... But there is that feeling of, like, they're putting her in a cage. Yes.

And like, then of course, you know, like when she arrives home in California with a monkey on her shoulder, which is apparently a real thing Steven Spielberg's mother did. She's like, I wanted to laugh. And it's like one of these things where you're like... Heartbreaking.

Yes, it's fucking heartbreaking. And she names the monkey Benny. Yes. And everyone's like, well, now you've put too fine a point on it. A little bit. Now you've said the thing that you can't unsay. Yeah.

Yes. But yeah, the California thing, I feel for her on that front. And I feel for her and all the kids as someone who has moved across the country, to another country, across the ocean, when I was nine years old. It sucks. David's staring nine years old It sucks It sucks

You never did a big move No no no We moved from the 7th floor to the 11th floor in the same building Were you crying And like being dragged up the stairs Yeah Your nails digging into the carpet Absolutely

You know and like fucking Spielberg's characters Like you know and like it fucking spielberg's characters like you know 16 at this point 17 like like it's it's it's brutal to uproot yourself yes um it just feels like you know i mean i knew again his parents got divorced but it feels like the end yeah and when they see that house that like cool modernist house that they're gonna live in but they never do live in, right? They never do live in it. Well, this is the later move. This is when he gets the promotion.

And then the divorce happens. First, they move into the house where they keep on saying, like, it's a rental. It's temporary. And it is this kind of weird haunted house. We're never going to pack it up. It feels wrong. Right. The modernist house, by the time he finally shows them the modernist house that they're moving into, the marriage is over.

them the modernist house that they're moving into the marriage is over it it the next scene after the home video footage of the home film footage of the modernist house is the divorce announcement um right yeah um but like yeah the modernist house feels like him being trying to save it in like one last way right and it's this thing where he keeps on saying like do you not understand i'm working to get us a better life i'm'm moving up in the company. This is all going so well. And they're like, no amount of money is going to make her happy. Meanwhile, she's getting a monkey. Like, she's going more chaotic. Yes. You know, like, she's going the opposite direction of him.

They finally get her to agree to go into therapy. When they divorce, we should mention that, and we can talk briefly about Sammy gets a Christian girlfriend and it's very funny not briefly we can talk about this a lot this and the bully a lot but it's sort of the divorce conversation I already mentioned it

it feels mundane and it feels like the divorce conversation we've seen the classic like we're sitting the kids down this is not your fault how dare you do this to us who's the bad guy let's find the victim it's just it's just the crucial thing is obviously we don't want to find the guy who did this we all want to find the guy who did this but it's just the crucial thing is just that shot of him reflected in the being like this would be such a good scene in a movie someday right but um goes high school experiencing anti-semitism for the

first time yes he's got this um sort of big strapping Aryan bully. Yes. Who is that the one that's played by Oaks Fegley? No, Oaks Fegley is the other one. Oaks Fegley is Chad, who's kind of the psycho. The greaser psycho. I mean, right? Like the kid with anger issues.

Yes. I guess is the best way to put it. Right. Logan, who's played by Sam Reckner. His first performance. I mean, he's very, very good in one specific scene, especially. My favorite scene.

Because initially, yeah, I mean, I agree. And was the scene that finally brought me to tears. And I would not have expected from the outside looking at that would be the scene that break me. I was like, I get it though. Through a lot of this movie and that scene just knocked me out. We will talk about it in a moment.

Because like before then, they are a little bit generic brand bullies not that i know steven spielberg is dealing with like he was bullied at school yes but you know what i mean they feel like it feels like we're watching an old movie it's movie bully yeah they're like we're in one of these california high schools where everyone's outside all the time they're like meet me outside, kid. They're punching him in the stomach and all that shit. Absolutely. But here's this Aryan boy who the sort of Weasley greaser kid uses as like muscle to enforce his anger. Right.

And as much as they all like sadistic sociopathic teenage boys do enjoy the sport of picking this kid's vulnerable spot, which is, of course, his Judaism. Yeah. It feels like Oaks Fegley is the only one who is genuinely maybe driven

by a pure anti-Semitic hate. Right? The rest of them are kind of going along with the fun of showing dominance. The bullies are who they are, but then he does get a girlfriend ben he kind of has a crush on logan's girlfriend i feel like right correct she's the one who's initially nice to him yes um but then it is the the her her more overtly religious friend

who is then drawn to him as this like exotic forbidden fruit uh well the reason uh why he ends up then meeting and getting this girlfriend it's because he says like oh i saw him making out with the redhead yeah he he genuinely sees logan cheating on his girlfriend high school girlfriend making out with someone else and then logan is like you cannot like have said that you must reverse your opinion you must like right just tell her i made it up they gang up on him in uh volleyball a scene i found pretty triggering and then uh he sees him making out he sort of can't look away in his forever observer role yeah right but then he accidentally slips make a noise is caught they're ganging up on him outside he's got the one trump card which is i can fucking call this out right and then she calls out this actress who by the way

was in licorice pizza oh was she she plays the girl that i feel like uh cooper hoffman has a crush on and then skylar gisondo comes in and starts like flirting with her instead sure she's one of the other actor child actors in the movie right then she is in this and just today i saw uh paparazzi photos from the beginning of filming on francis ford coppola's megalopolis she's in that as well well fucking first Fucking first three movies are Paul Thomas Anderson, Steven Spielberg, and Francis Ford Coppola. Right. What's her name?

I don't know. Let's see. This is Logan's girlfriend. I know, but what's her name? Or the lighter redhead one. Yeah. Is she Chloe East? Yes.

No, Chloe East is the one who ends up dating. Chloe East is the Christian girlfriend. Yes, she Chloe East is the girlfriend, is the Christian girlfriend. Yes, she is, who's been on, like, an ABC Family show or whatever. And I looked her up. She has, like, YouTube videos from when she was, like, 12

of, like, how to redecorate your room that have, like, a million views. She was one of these weird fucking YouTube kids. Isabel Kussman or Kussman is the one who's sort of starting her career with a bang. Bang, bang.

But yes, he gets knocked out, but she can tell, well, you knew that the girl was a redhead. I knew which girl that was. That's the one he keeps on cheating on me with. You knew something. They make him go apologize, say he was lying and she's like, but you knew. is it true that you're jewish and then they're both sort of fascinated by him

as a novelty uh this girl's obsessed with jesus uh she is she's raised by a religious family she but she also like is obsessed with jesus as a heartthrob status she thinks he's hot it's like teen beat yeah like pinups that's how she has gotten into being ricky nelson yes jesus he's hot yes look jesus is often presented as a hottie and i like when he's like we don't know what jesus looked like and she's like no he looked like this he looked like this handsome man you kind of look like him. You're Jewish too. Yes. You're like, at first I'm like, does she like him because it feels like an act of rebellion to date a Jewish boy?

Right. And there's probably a little bit of that, but there's even more of the like, well, Jesus was Jewish. Right. If I'm going to find my Jesus, he can't already be a Christian. But yeah, he's, look, he's the fricking, you know, he's the forbidden fruit. I don't know how else to describe it. I think he's so insane. She is so insanely good.

She's really funny. It feels very similar to the Amy Adams performance in Catch Me If You Can. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a real good way, in a sort of statement way. Like, oh, this is someone who we might be following for years and years to come as an actor.

Fair enough, yeah. And so then later, there's the fight at the dinner table. Right. Jeannie Berlin comes back over. The girlfriend's invited over for dinner. They're fighting about the monkey and everything else. Right. They're asking why he stopped filming stuff.

The mom calls out that he still sleeps with the camera under his pillow. Yeah. Yeah. Even if he's filming stuff. Right. The mom calls out that he still sleeps with the camera under his pillow. Yeah. Yeah. Even if he's abandoned it, like, he's still, it's his real love. And she's like,

why aren't you filming this? There's the senior ditch day. You should film that. They're looking for photographers. This is the thing. And the girlfriend mentions that her dad has the Aeroflex camera. The 35 millimeter.

Or I think it's 16, but it's like a big step up. Right. Yes. And it's like, this kid has been like disavowing film and filmmaking. Because it was, he sees it as this like poisonous thing.

Right. And the second she says like, he's got a thing, it's called like an R, and it's like the Airflex. He knows everything about it. And he starts like naming the technical stats of it. Right.

It's cool jean berlin will give him the money for the film reels they convince the dad to rent the editing equipment like sort of against his will suddenly he's back on it and then he shoots ditch day at the beach which is like a classic it looks so classic like california very 60s surf movie kind of thing yeah and he look yeah this is the important thing he shows it at prom and but let's also say when they hook up when she when he goes over to her house let's pray whatever you're like is this something where they're gonna hook up one time that she's gonna be embarrassed by him and like pretend to not know him the next day no she likes she comes over for dinner where they go to ditch date they're like together the

whole time like you're like fuck he's actually got a girlfriend but then when he says he loves her she freaks out justifiably this is this is the big i just like that she's just like wait a second buddy like she's not like no i love you too like she's like i guess this is kind of a sex thing having seen too many movies i was like is this going to be a thing where the next scene she goes like i mean i can't date a jew i don't't know you. Right. No, they are together. As you said, it's sort of a more like having fun thing, forbidden fruit kind of thing. But they're together. They go to this dance.

They go to the dance. He shows. Well, no. First, he says, you ever think about coming to L.A. with me? Yeah. She's like, aren't you going to college? He's like, I want to go to L.A. He wants to be a movie boy.

I want to be doing the movie thing. Why don't you come out with me? She's like, I got into another school. What are you talking about? She's got a fucking life to live. What are you trying to say? And he's like, I love you. He's all mixed up because of the divorce, obviously.

Right. And she's like, what are you talking about? And he's like, look, my parents are getting divorced. And she's like, wait, what? And at first, my thought was she's rejecting him because she comes from

such a religious background. The idea that divorce is happening. Instead, she's just like, oh, I'm reading you. I understand what's going on here. You're overcompensating. This doesn't even have anything to do with me, really.

She's smart. Then Principal James Urbaniak comes up. He sure does. And it's like, time to screen the movie. Hey, come on, kid. Yeah. Film to screen here. I've got some horn-rimmed glasses on. Yes. I brought them myself from set. You paid me $100.

James Urbaniak will someday be a guest on the show. We need to have him on. He shows this movie. But he's, like, dreading it. This is actually getting funny how every time I try and tee it up. Because this is the most important scene in the movie. He's fucking dreading it. And you're like,

is he just so bruised by the rejection? Slash, did he phone this in? Is he not like, has he not found it again? He basically says, please don't make me do this. Right. Spools it up.

The thing is incredible. It's like a perfect Annette Funicello beach blanket bingo movie. And you see all the stuff paying off because there's like little clips when they're at the beach of like dropping like yogurt ice cream on people's faces what is this yeah what is this going to be and it's like actually like state he lands some gags yeah everyone's laughing and anytime they cut to someone in the beat lands they'll like stand up in the audience their friends will pat him on the back it's like he's making everyone feel right he did a good job to like include everyone but logan is the hero of his movie right and he's hot as fuck he's like this sort of like strapping

golden glowing movie star and he's like filming him running on the beach in slow motion yeah he's making oaks figley look like a fucking dunce yeah yeah he right he's he is pretty brutal blankets being pulled out from under him uh whatever the the beach blanket but but yes but he's making logan look so goddamn good right right uh then there's this incredible spielberg one you talk about the skill of spielberg if you can distill what is his superpower to one thing? It's like his fucking blocking, right? I love Nope. It is one of my favorite movies of the year. But Nick Lariano, former co-researcher on the show,

had a tweet thread about it where he was talking about like in Nope, Peele is trying to do the Spielberg oners. And he does them better than most people do. But the magic Spielberg is able to do, which no one else can do if you watch something like Jaws, is that he will have the on wonder that will go on for so long

that will start as one shot, morph into another shot, move, morph into another shot. And at every single moment, the composition is perfect. Even when people are crossing frame and rearranging and the camera's shifting and the plane is shifting, somehow, even in the transitional stages where it's

morphing, it's always perfect and is communicating the story. There's never any sloppiness. And this is one of those sequences where there's the shot where it's like, the movie stops. The redhead girl runs up to Logan

and is like, Logan, you looked really good in that. Right? Is talking to him. You're like, okay, the girlfriend is now going to come up furious

that he's talking to the redhead girl. Instead, she pushes the redhead girl away and just starts kissing Logan because she is so fucking horned up by the magic of the movies, right? Then we follow Christian girlfriend as she loops around behind them, goes over the projector to look for Sammy,

and Sammy's gone. And even though she just was like, Sammy, lose my fucking number, now she's kind of horned up for Sammy. And even though she just was like, Sammy, lose my fucking number, now she's kind of horned up for Sammy. And where is Sammy? It's just this shot that transforms four times in the wake of how everyone's perception has

changed of everyone else post this movie screening. And Sammy is the one person nowhere to be found. And he is sitting in a fetal position, hunched in the hallway by the lockers. And Logan comes over and he is sitting in a fetal position, hunched in the hallway by the lockers. And Logan comes over and he is fucking irate. Yep.

Why did you do that? Why did you do that? Why would you do that? What are you talking about? And it's not what I love about this scene. It is so complicated. It's not at all simple what he even means. And he doesn't even totally know what he's asking.

No. But it's this combination of why did you make me look why did you make me the hero of your movie when i've been so cruel to you is this some incredibly perverse thing like right there has to be some ultimate carrie style bucket of blood dropped on my head yeah you couldn't set me up like what's the right what's the turn here? When does the shoot drop? Right? And he says the thing where he's like, she just kissed me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's right now nicer to me than she's ever been before.

She idolizes me more than she ever has before. And I'm even meaner to her than I am to you. And Sammy has that incredible line where he's just like, I don't know. I don't know. And it's like, why did you do this? And he's like, I don't know. Maybe don't know. And it's like, why did you do this? And he's like, I don't know. Maybe I wanted you to be nice to me for 20 seconds.

Maybe I just thought it would make for a better movie. I don't know. But it's, I mean, there is a homoerotic edge to it that sort of distressed him, right? Like, why did you make me look so beautiful? Right. You know, like. But it's the same part of him that's just like, it's a good image. I don't care if it's my mom or it's my like you are i get like i you're popping yeah you you're

fucking a movie star you're the only one who you're a star potential you know i i looked around i filmed a lot of stuff and you i'm sorry you you made the cut you're number one you've got it and i can't help but make you look good it's so it's It sucked. I don't know why I did it either, but I fucking did it because guess what? I just, everyone there was eating out of the palm of my hand. He's angry at himself. He's like, I wish there was some trick. I wish there was a justification.

I chose the best footage. It's like so good. But also not a conscious decision. Once again, he's just like i don't fucking know but it does feel like spielberg to this day like looking at the sky and being like these gifts i'm a monster you know like you know like it's a little bit of yes because he's scared i can't help myself he's scared by himself doing that um and he has that speech where he's like i run faster than anyone in the state i work really

hard for that and i look at that guy up on the screen and i don't run as fast as he does right right you've turned me into something i'm not like you've turned me into something i can never live up to right yeah yeah which is this fucking power of the movies thing it's like you create some static truth that i now who have has always felt so confident myself yeah I will now feel inferior for the rest of my life because I can't live up to the fake version of me that you created right and I don't understand why you would do that to me

and he like breaks down crying uh it rules it's very very good scene and it is kind of the crux of the movie right chills yeah chills and he goes like you better never ever fucking tell anyone that this happened it's so good and he was like i won't unless i make a movie about it and then you're watching that fucking movie right now yes and then he goes oh

i won't i won't why would i ever make that movie maybe you know i don't know 50 60 years you know, I don't know, 50, 60 years, you know. An incredible joke. And yet somehow. The biggest laugh the movie got, I would say, in my audience. Yet somehow there is arguably still a greater meta joke coming. It's really like right after this is really just like. Here's the final scene with the mother. What is the final scene with her?

Where they're in the kitchen. Yes. And he's like, so she dumped me. Yeah. And she's like, why? And he's like, so she dumped me. Yeah. And she's like, why? And he's like, because I asked her to marry me.

And she goes, really? And he goes, all but. Which is so funny that like, even just 12 hours later, he recognizes saying I love you was way too intense.

Yes. He basically was saying to her, marry me. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though I don't think he literally thought he was saying that in that moment.

Right. For sure. And they have the conversation she she like it's like i need to apologize for the slap he's like the chris rock thing that won't happen for another 50 years she's like no the time i slapped you thumbs down thank you thank you yeah um But they have this final, like, all of my tension with you is probably because I see too much of myself in you. And her basically apologizing that he had to be burdened with knowing this whole thing, being stuck in the middle of this dynamic, all of this.

It's a heartbreaking scene. It is. It's the scene that should win Michelle Williams her supporting actress nomination. Yeah. An award that she will instead probably lose to Michelle Yeoh or Cate Blanchett.

I would say she's going to be runner-up. I don't know who Cate Blanchett is. Lydia Tarr will be winning the Oscar for playing herself in the film Tarr. I think Michelle Yeoh could win. I think it could go either way.

David's shaking his head. No, I don't think so. But I do think she'll get a nomination. I'm very hopeful she'll get a nomination. Sure. She would probably win supporting in a cakewalk, though.

Michelle. Yes. Yeah. But I would argue it's category fraud. It's kind of politicky where it's like, you know, it's kind of like she's got, you know, partly because the category is a little weaker, yada, yada, yada. I don't think it's category fraud. I think there, at the very least, I will say, I think there's legitimate cases for either.

I don't, I also hate the term category fraud. Well, I think you're a category fraud. Exactly. Because it just makes it sound like some crime and i'm like guys let's all relax oh i'm sorry i forgot there are no crimes in art exactly frank told me that so we're jumping ahead a little bit to this like slightly sadder apartment the dad lives one year later it's kind of single guy apartment freshman year of college sammy is bad at college he keeps on coming home and staying with his dad in the apartment rather than staying in the dorm because his roommate's driving him crazy um and a real i want to drop out of college move right uh and he uh you know um he's having a panic attack he thinks he's having a heart attack but his dad sort of like the doctor puts his head to

his chest and is like you're all right this is a panic attack your mother has them you're fine but there's the dad doesn't want to see the pictures though that's what i remember well right like that's that's right is that the same thing get the letter from the mom from the mom it's weird it's just random pictures of some backyard party right and then the dad looks at the one and like turns away and it's seth rogan is like grilling or whatever right yeah yeah yeah like that that's the thing i remembered honestly it's just like as much as dano is being a mensch about the whole thing yes he is so heartbroken yes right like he can't really handle it he tries to give his son the ultimate gift which is a hundred dollars

to spend on whatever he wants. People think more money is a greater gift. It isn't. $100 is the best gift you could ever get. And it can buy you love. It can. It can. $101 can't.

Nope. No, he says, like, basically, he gives him the broken speech. He's like, you have to do this. I can't stop you from doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? You should go.

You should pursue this. Right, right. But he, even when he's trying to free his son from the burden of the expectations there's the final knife jab where he goes maybe it's my fault maybe i should have stomped this out while you were young and i still had the chance but now it's too late sure it's so heartbreaking yeah it's sort of an anti-endorsement you love this you're very good at this You should do it but also oh boy I wish you didn't want to

Well he's like it's my fault At this point I have to own the mistake That I didn't stop you from pursuing this stupid thing While I could Ken And there's this weird line where Sammy replies With like I'll show you I'll make a movie about a dinosaur theme park And then you'll love me I thought that line was a little on the nose

A little on the nose I'll show you I'm gonna make a whole company where there's a boy and a moon fishing for films for dreams david the fucking logo at the beginning of this movie what is the universal logo yeah and then et starts riding in front of the universal yes yes yes it turns into amblin yes right this is the new thing this This is Spielberg's first Universal movie in 10 years? Is that true? Should we go through? Because he was obviously predominantly a Universal guy,

then DreamWorks, but DreamWorks and Universal did a lot of stuff together. Yes, his last Universal film, wow, was Munich, and that was like Universal DreamWorks. So that doesn't even, you know, like his last like full Universal film was The Lost World, Jurassic Park. Right. Okay.

Even the DreamWorks relationship with Universal, he was still sort of in bed with them. And then like, then DreamWorks went over to Disney. And then he's been free agenting around. He did two Foxes. He did a Warner Brothers. Ready Player One was Warner Brothers. Post and West Side Story

Were Fox BFG was Disney Lincoln, BFG, Bridgespies Were all Disney Well yeah Lincoln and Bridgespies Were Fox Weren't they?

Or maybe not Were they Disney? No they were Touchstone Dreamworks Yeah Okay Anyway yeah Touchstone became

The Dreamworks label For six years Like Tintin was a weird Like Paramount Sony thing Nickelodeon Yeah I don't know yeah uh maybe sony was international that logo felt like universal being like he's back baby we got him he does not like warner brothers anymore no and it felt very similar to universal rolling out the red carpet for nolan being like we now want to be the most director friendly 100 right yeah yeah come to us um Anyway. So the final scene of the film.

Look, I knew that David Lynch was in this film playing John Ford. I was aware of this. His casting had been announced and then I'd heard this sort of scuttlebutt of like, do you know who he's playing? John Ford.

Now, had you heard the John Ford story before? I had heard the John Ford story before, but I had never, I couldn't remember it exactly. I just remember there was John Ford being like, look at that painting!

You know, like, I remember that. I believe I invoked it in the War Horse episode. You've invoked it at some point. Right. And I can't remember it exactly. I just remember there was John Ford being like, look at that painting. You know, like I remember that. I believe I invoked it in the War Horse episode. You've invoked it at some point. Right. And I can't remember when. But I know there's the promotional tour for Cowboys and Indians. He told it because there's-

Which John Ford directed. John Ford did direct. But there are these YouTube videos where it's like Grazer, Spielberg, Howard, Favreau, the four masters, the Titans. And it's just them talking about the cinematic arts. It's them trying to be like Favreau the four masters the titans and it's just them talking about the cinematic arts it's them trying to be like favreau welcome to the club right and there's one of those videos that went semi-viral with him telling that story in the directed by john ford documentary that

bogdanovich uh made yeah he tells the story i think he told for an afi thing once he's told versions of the story before so when you hear that david lynch is gonna play john you're like it's gonna be this right it's gonna be the scene but it is i have been waiting and then i've sort of forgotten about it then i'm like wait a second you're so deep in the movie okay so we're ending on this interesting uh and it's just i mean it's just perfect uh he sits there he waits there's the old uh receptionist lady right you know comes, right? He comes in covered in smooches. Comes in covered in red lipstick. It's like my fucking Lorne Michaels,

Yul Gitz had eventually story, which I've told in the pod before, where it's like, I remember every single visual detail of these 90 seconds of my life. Right? It's so clear that every element of this is etched into his brain.

When he tells the story in all these interviews, he talks about, he comes in covered in smooches. The receptionist falls after him. She walks out a minute later. The handkerchiefs are all red now. Like, every single detail of this. So, what is it exactly?

Because you just saw it. Yeah, okay. So, Bernie Fine says... No, I mean... I can't help you. I know why he's reading it. I mean, like, what is he... The painting. Look at the painting. He says, yeah, he says, kid, what do you know about art? Right.

He's smoking a big pipe. Everyone's warning him, like, five minutes. It's a stogie. It's probably one, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take off the tie, he'll like you more. Right, right.

You'll have a better shot, I think she says. It is really funny how they're all, right, they're trying to prep him, yeah. Right. And then he walks in and tries to do the, like, Mr. Ford, I love your movies. Shut up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to talk about that. Sucking on this fucking cigar. Right. And he's like, art. What do you know about art? And he's like, well, I love movies. Not movies, art. Right. He's like, go over there. Look at that painting. What do you see? And he's like, it's like the cowboy. No, no, no, not that not that the horizon where's the horizon uh it's here at the bottom okay next next paint look at the next paint that one yeah what do you see and he repeats the same mistake right he's like uh it's a cowboy no no no no no no fuck that where's the horizon up at the top yeah and he then i believe he just basically says uh uh if the horizon is at the top it's interesting if the horizon is at the bottom it's interesting if the horizon is in the middle it's fucking boring i'll get the fuck out of my office now the time spielberg has told this story in different places sometimes it changes a little little A little bit. In the Cowboys and Aliens version, which I re-watched.

Cowboys and Aliens. The Cowboys and Aliens version. We watched Cowboys and Aliens. The movie. Yeah. And I went, why did I re-watch this? Awful.

Yeah. I re-watched the, or I'd never maybe seen the full directed by John Ford thing as well last night. So I re-watched that, or watched it. And I watched this Cowboys and Aliens video.

In that version, the way he tells it, John Ford says, if you can figure out the difference between what it means when the horizon's at the top and at the horizon's at the bottom, then maybe, maybe you have a chance of making a decent picture.

Yes. I feel like Spielberg has turned it into something more funny. Because it's a movie. He takes a little bit of the import away from it. But the lesson of that is basically, for the first time he's talking to someone who actually does this thing. Yeah. And says to him like, you know, they tell me you're a picture maker. Right.

Dismissive. He's not impressed with you. Right. Now he's basically like, you need to learn what you want to say. Right. Right? Right. Here's this kid that this whole movie has just not really understood why.

He's good at making movies. It opens doors for him why he's good at making movies it opens doors for him it changes his relationships to other people in ways both good and bad he doesn't know what he wants to say the movies he's making are all just it'd be fun to make a war movie because i just saw a war movie with my friends it'd be fun to make a western because i just saw man who shot liberty valance or whatever and for the first time ford's basically saying to him you need to understand what these images are saying and what you want to say with them. He walks out.

This is it. Because I knew the Ford, and I sort of knew the parameters of the Ford story. The thing that surprised me was the final shot of the movie. And I've seen so many people say, Griffin, you're going to lose your fucking mind

when you see the final shot of this movie. And I'm like, what could this final shot be? It's him running through the studios, you know, oh, he's on the lot. Much like the Tar ending, which I will not spoil for anyone because it's not a Tar ending. A Tar episode. Yeah.

So many people say, you will not believe the fucking ending of Tar. And I'm like, well, now I'm ruined because I'm going to spend the whole movie trying to guess what the ending is. But you couldn't. You cannot. You truly can't. It is fundamentally impossible to guess the ending of Tar. and i'm sitting here up until this last moment i'm like what fucking shot could he pull out at this moment and if it's just this shot of him walking down the alleyway in between the studios in the back lot the sound stages like that's a nice shot but why do people say this was a knockout and then there's a fucking herky jerky camera tilt yes to frame up the camera

essentially drops to the floor to look up yes so the horizon yeah it's like one of the legs of the tripod goes out so that no longer the horizon is at the middle yes it's in a more interesting place oh god it makes me so happy but it's also one of these things where it's like it's one of these moments that takes you out of the movie pointedly yes to say initially spielberg was going to say cut and he decided that's too cheesy the one step i just want the camera to drop right but you just suddenly become aware of yeah the construction this is a movie and you're also like it does look better it does he was right It does. He was right. Like,

Spielberg being both like, this is fundamental and like, this is a thing I can't ever not do. Yeah. But he's also like, it's easy. Put the camera on the floor.

When it happens, at the first moment, I was like, this is really sloppy for a Spielberg movie. Like, it took a millisecond for me to process.

That's funny. Yeah. And then I was like, oh my God. The camera fell down. Hey, hey, someone pick up the camera. Oh, just like Yannis

usually is smoother on the moves. You're going to break it. It doesn't fall down on the expensive camera. You know how expensive they are? So this whole movie's been about these fucking expensive cameras. What a picture.

What a picture. I turned to Ben. Four out of 25. I turned to Ben and I just say, I said, it's all in there. I said, what? in there I said what yeah he Ben truly went what the fuck

are you talking about and I was like that movie's about everything that movie's about everything it's not about movies in a glib way it's about like all of us trying to understand

why movies have any weird power over us damn right why we want to watch these things why we want to make these things and simultaneously about understanding

that you're never going to totally understand your parents, which is the fundamental tragedy that all of us will live through to some degree or another in our lives. You know. Inescapable. It's about feelings and how difficult it is to express them. And how to find a language in your life to be able to express them. Not to invoke Tar again, in fact, but I just saw Tar

with my wife. I saw her. I saw Lydia. I met her. Again. I'd seen her her. I saw Lydia. I met her. Again. I'd seen her before. Meet her again. She's real. And at the end of the movie, I'm like doing what you're doing. I'm like going on about what I liked about it.

And, you know, what's so interesting about the character. My wife was like, she's got a lot of feelings and she wants to express them. It's tough for her to express them. And I was like, that's pretty good way of putting it. Yeah. And that's how, that's what's going on with Sammy Fableman. Yeah. Let's play the box office

game. Great. There is no box office game. The movie hasn't come out. The movie comes out in a week. Yeah. I mean, I imagine that a little movie called Black Panther Wakanda Forever. Oh, right. It comes out tomorrow at the time of our report. Will be atop the box office when Fableman's is limited release.

Yeah, it'll be Black Panther, Wakanda Forever. And then it will, because that's the only movie coming out in wide release. What do you think Wakanda Forever is going to do? That's actually a good question. I feel like this is the question of, is it going to be a little under the original or a little over the original? It'll be under the original, right? What was the original? The original is 209, I want to say.

It'll be under that, won't it? It's just hard these days to get that. Right. I think it'll be under the original, right? What was the original? The original's $209, I want to say. It'll be under that, won't it? It's just hard these days to get that. Right. I think it'll be like $150. That would be a lot under. I feel like most people are guessing between $175 and $190. And Disney's like, maybe we can outdo the original by like $2 million.

Damn. I mean, good for them. I don't think so. I think it'll be like one, okay, 175. How about that? Okay, yeah. I think that's the safe bet. And then it's gonna be like Black Adam Ticket to Paradise, you know, La La Crocodile. Right, Black Adam doing like

10 tickets, Paradise doing like 7. Yeah. Lila and Smile doing like 5 or 3, yeah. I don't think, I think maybe Armageddon time is expanding, so that'll probably do like 115, 120. Yeah, absolutely Ben is opening the door to get our Deli meat

Perfect timing You've seen Wakanda Forever? Yes You liked it? It is a very I liked it okay It's a very There's a really good movie

that would have starred Chadwick Boseman in there and then Chadwick Boseman died. And it feels like the stuff, the Namor stuff, the stuff that was always there is the best part of the movie. But that doesn't totally work without... It's just tough to... You know, where everyone has to be sad

because the guy's dead because the real guy is dead and that is sad. I was... And it does a good job wrestling with it, I would say. But it's just tough to make a fun movie, you know, where everyone has to be sad because the guy's dead because the real guy is dead and that is sad. I was... And it does a good job wrestling with it, I would say, but it's just tough to make a fun movie, you know, and a comic book movie

with, like, Marvel cameos in it. I was so surprised. But there's a lot of... I think it's a very interesting movie, honestly. I'm excited to see it. I'm going to see it tomorrow. It's certainly the most excited I've been for a Marvel thing in a while.

I was surprised that they got the movie up on its feet so quickly after bozeman died considering that kugler was like i did not know the script was done it was right we had a totally different script and when i saw the trailer and was so forward with the grieving and the loss of this character i was like oh fuck did he truly go back to the drawing board and totally rejigger the movie yeah and everything i've heard now feels like he kept about half of the movie without T'Challa in it

and then made the other half about the absence of T'Challa. Yeah. But half of the stuff you can tell this should have had this other character. Sort of, yeah.

I mean, it works, but I don't know. I'm seeing it again tomorrow. With your wife? Yeah, so I'll have more feelings on it, I guess. Yeah.

Did you skip the last couple of Marvels in theaters? Thor I was like I ain't seeing that shit again Right And she didn't see Eternals? She did not see Eternals She saw Spider-Man She saw Eternals on Disney Plus She saw Spider-Man

She saw Shang-Chi She saw Doctor Strange in theaters Black Widow? Well we saw that on like Disney Plus Sure Like that was more deep I'm just saying Your wife

Yeah she'll watch the Marvel movies But she did not watch Love and Thunder in theaters We watched that on Disney Plus. Sure. Like that was more deep. Your wife. Yeah. She'll watch the Marvel movies but she did not watch Love and Thunder in theaters. We watched that on Disney Plus. I know a lot of it's being a mother now.

It's partly it's the parent thing. She would have seen Love and Thunder. No no no. It's true. I mean but the thing with Love and Thunder

was I had just seen it that week and I was like I don't want to fucking seen that twice go with a friend or don't like you know and like she was just like whatever. I thought that still have not watched it you should watch it i watch it

you say that i'm going to at some point i'm gonna be cooped up in a hotel in rochester that's true that's true i think i'm gonna watch a lot of things i've been putting off yeah yeah yeah uh all right we're done okay goodbye uh the fail mints is an incredible movie yeah i think it rules i loved it it uh me of what I care about Damn right Now let's go eat Damn fucking It smells so goddamn good

And then we'll do a quick little Wendell and Wild Yeah so if you want to Try to carbon date these records Next week In release schedule is Nightmare Before Christmas Yes records next week in release schedule is nightmare before christmas uh yes right yes so you're gonna get two sellecks uh yeah you'll get nightmare before christmas james no you'll get three

sellecks okay and james and the giant piece and peach and monkey bone and then of course we will discuss avatar the way of water on december 18th and then we're going to be off for Christmas and New Year's and then back on January 8th with Coraline. This is boring stuff to talk about, but now having seen a lot of these movies, it does feel like Fableman's is winning Best Picture unless Babylon or Avatar are like transcendent masterpieces. Right?

We'll see. Let's turn off the mics. I just think the Wakanda forever winning best picture thing is done. Oh, yeah. That was never going to happen. Never going to happen.

I suppose if it was something like... If it was... Right. This is... Come on. Let's turn off the mic. We did great.

I'm hungry. I'm hungry. We're hungry. I got to pee. Thank you all for listening. Thank you. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe.

David is already pushing his microphone away. Thank you to Marie Barty for our social media and helping to produce the show. Thank you to Joe Bowen and Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Leigh Montgomery and the Great American

Novel for our theme song. Alex Barron, AJ McKeon for our editing. Thank you to JJ Birch for our research even though he didn't do shit on this episode. Happy holidays, JJ. Go to blankcheckpod.com for some links to some real nerdy shit, including

our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, where in the month of December, we are uncovering the two national treasure movies and also talking The Walk. Tune in next week, as we said, for The Night Before Christmas, a new miniseries entitled Ben Hosley's The Podmare Before Castmas. And as always, we're about to eat some fucking pastrami sandwiches. Should I just get a quart of matzo ball soup? Yes. Yes.

Do they have sole rice soda? They must, right? They probably do. I mean, I feel like this is actually good to have on mic because... ball soup? Yes. Do they have celery soda? They probably do. I mean, I feel like this is actually good to have on mic because... For this episode? Yeah. For Wendell and Wild? Maybe not. Yeah, they've got a celery. You nut. I hate that shit.

It's so good. Medicinal. I love a tonic. A vegetable tonic. Cure my ailments. My humors. I got the tonic. Yes. A vegetable tonic. Yes. Cure my ailments. Yeah. My humors. I got the humors.

Yes. Have you gotten your humors vaccine yet? Oh, God. Just the bile and the, what are the four humors? I want to look it up. The bile and the, sorry, the black bile and the phlegm. Those are the two I've had taken care of. Yeah. Pigs in blanket? Am I crazy? Yes, you're insane. and the, sorry, the black bile and the phlegm. Those are the two I've had taken care of.

Pigs in blanket? Am I crazy? Yes, you're insane. Don't do that. Don't do that. That'd be like bringing a monkey into the home. I wanted to laugh!