Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Hunt For Red October with Jamelle Bouie

Episode Date: March 10, 2024

We love da submarinesh! Host of “Unclear and Present Danger” Jamelle Bouie joins us this week to talk about middle aged white guys, airport novels, and naval recruitment propaganda. That’s right - we’re talking about John McTiernan’s adaptation of Tom Clancy’s THE HUNT FOR RED OCTOBER! Come for our thesis on why Alec Baldwin played the best version of Jack Ryan, stay for Ben and Jamelle’s impassioned pleas for a Highlander patreon series. And of course, there will be Connery impressions. This episode is sponsored by: AuraFrames.com (CODE: CHECK) ExpressVPN (ExpressVPN.com/check) Join our Patreon at patreon.com/blankcheck Follow us @blankcheckpod on Twitter and Instagram! Buy some real nerdy merch at shopblankcheckpod.myshopify.com

Blackjack with Griffin and David Blackjack with Griffin and David Don't know what to say or to expect All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blackjack Once more we record our dangerous podcast A podcast against our old adversary, the American Navy. For 40 years, your father's before you and your older brothers recorded this podcast and recorded it well.

But today the podcast is different. We have the advantage. It always falls apart. Really turns that kind of ac bar. It does, I guess. Yeah, there's the ac bar. It does. It gets. Yeah, there's the man. Act bar today.

The advantage. I'm just getting a loud phone call. We know that it's a trap. Is this his best performance? Let's let's exclude sort of James Bond. I was going to say, you do know he played James Bond. Yeah. Let's let's you know, let's set that aside.

This Sean Connery's best film. It's interesting question. That is a real interesting question. I would say it. Is this Sean Connery's best film? Interesting question. That is a real interesting question. I would say it's my favorite Sean Connery film performance. I can't think of another one in the 90s. That's that's this good. I mean, there's the rock. The rock is his 90s performance.

That's probably the most robust, right? It's great. Yeah. It's great in that. But he's putting 80 slices of ham on a piece of bread. This performance is like measured. No, it's incredible. Yeah, yeah. And especially for a guy who like jumps in of him on a piece of bread. This performance is like measured. No, it's incredible. Yeah, yeah.

And especially for a guy who like jumps in on like two days notice. True, that's what we'll talk about. Do we all agree that his untouchables now win is simultaneously pretty silly and I'm cool with it? Yeah, absolutely. Sure, yeah. Right?

Like I'm like, that's objectively kind of ridiculous to give him the Oscar for that. And also I have no complaints about it. It was a career Oscar. Totally. He's good in the Untouchables. Yes. He's only in it for like 10 minutes. That's not true.

He has like 15. That is not true. He has an iconic line. He's got an iconic line. He's in so much more of that movie than you think. I remember him dying like surprisingly early. No, we were having this conversation about Jack Palin since the city slickers who was truly in that movie for eight minutes.

You know what? You're only eight minutes. Malone's got, he's in like half the movie. I have not taken the stopwatch to Jack Palin's, but his character dies before the 40 minute mark. We just watched executive decision on unclear and, with Nick Weigar, correct? With Nick Weigar. And Steven Seagal is in that movie.

Of course. Much less than you think. It's so iconic that he gets taken out of that movie. Like that's, I like executive decision entirely. Like I think it's a good movie, but the best thing it does is kill off Steven Seagal. Not to go too far. Spoilers for executive decision. Not to go too far away from Sean Connery, but I thing it does is kill off Steven Seagal. Not to go too far. No, it's spoilers for executive design.

Not to go too far away from Sean Connery, but I will say the best part about Steven Seagal's deafening executive decision is that it's not a kind of thing where the action that kills them happens, and then it cuts to the other commandos and they react. It's it cuts to his body being sucked out into the air. Yes. And it's very funny. You see this mannequin just sort of like sucked out into the air. Yes. And it's very funny.

You see this mannequin just sort of like fly away in the air. And I think it's great. They are on an airplane. Weiger was texting us after he had done that episode with you. And through to us the challenge of how would you cast that movie today? Who are the two appropriate movie stars? The one guy who's a little overqualified to be killed off that early and surprised the

audience. And who's the guy who's kind of the brainy action star with the history and the gravitas to pull off the Russell part. And my two takes were put Damon in the Russell part. Here's a guy with action movie pedigree. Yeah, but he plays a guy with glasses in a backdoor. You can put classes on him and you believe it. Right.

Yeah. Right. And then I said, the fucking Stephen Segal you put Gerard Butler in there. Right. And it would have the exact same take. And him dying, you're like, shit, they don't have him? Like, you need that guy.

Like, you need the muscle. I think the difference though is that even by 96, Segal was very much on the down slope. Yes. Instead of having this terrible reputation, but people like Gerard Butler. We're not very much on the down. Yes, but this is terrible reputation, but you are people like Gerard But we're not trying to place we're not trying to say that Gerard Butler has Steven Seagull's personality or politics No, that is I agree. I agree. It seems like a great guy

But he did go from being like an A-list studio leading man for brief periods now being like the king of B movies Oh, yeah from secondary studios It's now being like the king of B movies from secondary studios where for him to be in that type of role Like Lionsgate has like a button they can press that calls his cell phone, right? Like they just there's a G and they just like But the other thing with him is like and he he schedules busy because he has to go to the funerals of like STX and Every time one of these all the mid mid major studios that die, right? He's there like looking very solemn while there's like bagpipes playing.

He's on bed rest for, not bed rest. He's waiting bedside at ketchup entertainment. Ketchup entertainment, what are you talking about? They got positions. Yeah, they're putting out Hallie Meyers' new movie. Yeah, we're going deep in the weeds here. But what I liked about the Butler notion is that like similarly if he showed up in like a Universal, you know like a major studio Matt Damon movie as like the second leader the fake-out lead

He'd be like this is weird Butler's usually in smaller movies than this, but he's also always the guy. Yeah, that's right He's never playing it's never a two-hander, really. Like even playing, which was sold a little bit as, oh, it's Butler and Coulter, Coltie piece is out for like the middle hour of that movie. And that's Butler do his thing. Also, doesn't the plane piece out like they get off the plane? They get off the plane.

They get off the plane. I like that movie. I enjoyed it. Here's my take on that movie. I think Colt is fucking unbelievable enjoyed it. Here's my take on that movie. I think culture is fucking Unbelievable in it and I'm like really into their dynamic and then he disappears and he only comes back at the very end They've announced that the plain sequel is a culture spin-off, which is exactly what I want. What's it called? I want to say it's called train I'm not joking. I think it might be

You're wrong Called It's called ship. Okay. Well, it's called ship. A little more similar to the movie we're talking about. It may make a cameo appearance. Okay. But yes, you're right. It's going to be my culture centric. I wanted that whole movie to be the two of them side by side the entire time. That haven't been said.

There's the one fucking one take fight sequence the Jared Butler has that is so good and how messy it is and How they like let him take moments where he's out of breath. Yeah, and he's like fumbling to like keep up That shit rolls. Have you seen plane? No plane has one of my favorite movie weapons It's like a super gun that when it shoots people with tears chunks out of them. I was a big fan of that I don't think the military should have been gun that would shoot people with tears chunks out of them. I was a big fan of that. I don't think the military should have been into this. Much like the caterpillar drive. It's too powerful.

This is my other complaint with a plane. You got the scene where all, all the passengers are boarding the plane and you're like, okay, introduce me some good character. Who are the fun people who are all going to have their little threads going on? Fucking Joey Slotnik boards the plane. Oh, hell yeah. I'm in. I'm in the clear.

Right. I'm good. And then Slotnik also kind of disappears. Not enough Slotnik for you. Well, you know, do your own plane. I will. It's called by plane. Yeah, exactly.

It's a true two-hander. Yeah. Right. Introduce our podcast please. This is blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks, make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. It's also a podcast about dumb movies. Yes, it is.

Mr. Connery himself is here with us today. That's true. Yeah. He's not going to talk much unless I suddenly feel a lot of confidence. But he would agree that we all love dumb movies. We all love dumb movies. And this is one of them. We weirdly don't talk about him a lot on this show.

John Connery? No. We got another one coming up in the same series. Yeah. One I've never seen, I'll say. That's like the one me too, and I've never seen. Here's a spoiler. Take your time on that one.

New rush. I would actually disagree and say make it top priority. Okay. Make it top priority in the way that you want to get tough things out of the way. Like, you know, you want to do your chores. You'll feel better long-term if you watch medicine and sooner rather than later. Okay.

It's quite a weird film. I suppose the thing with Connery is obviously we have not discussed his Bond films. And apart from that, he did work kind of sporadically at a certain point. Sure. I, you know, obviously we'll probably one day do Adriana Jones. And last crusade.

Or the two that feel inevitable. I will probably do some Highlander commentaries. Certainly, Ben has to say. I would love to be on a Highlander commentary. Well, I don't know when I went out there. Okay. All right. I love the Highlander.

Do you like Highlander too, the quickening? I like all Highlander. All Highlander. All Highlander. Do you like Highlander 2, the quickening? I like all Highlander. All Highlander. All Highlander. Normally, I would say there can only be one, but I'm going to allow there to be two huge fans of Highlander. There was a point a couple of years ago where we were recording a Patreon episode and we, because of scheduling, we didn't know what the next series was

going to be, I think. It was like recorded very far in advance. And David and I were on Mike saying like, and what's coming up next? We don't know what the next series was gonna be, I think. It was like recorded very far in advance. And David and I were on Mike saying like, and what's coming up next? We don't know yet. And Ben goes, I have an idea. And we go, what is it? And Ben just starts going like this.

Like pantomimeing sword fighting. And we said like, what are you doing, Ben? And he just did it with more intensity as if like this is so obvious. And then we stopped recording. And Ben went, Highland as if like, this is so obvious. And then we stopped recording, where I'm Ben, what he went, Highlander. Yeah, but Ben, it's obvious. As if it's the only movie where people do that.

If I'm putting my hands up like this in the air, that can only mean one thing. It can mean what? There can only be one. Yeah, it can only mean one thing. Listen, this isn't an episode on Highlander, but now we know. Yes. That our great guest would be down.

All the more reason to do it. All the more reason to go through the quickening. That's a highlander. But this today, yes, absolutely. This is another entry into a mini series on the films of John McTiernan. Yes. Big McTee.

It's called Pod Hard with Avenge Cast. Good job. Although this is another title we could have used if we wanted to. It has the space, the amount of words. Of course, the Pod for Red Octobre Cast. Yeah, Casttober probably is what I would have done. Yeah. Hunter Red October is what we're talking today with a man who I would say among his many

esteemed credits and titles. One of America's preeminent hunt for red October experts. Scholars? I guess I've made my name somewhat as a guy who likes Tom Clancy. I message you, I say we're doing McTairnan. You go, oh fuck, a lot of interesting opportunities there, right? And you're texting through them in real time and you're like, tired with the vengeance would be fun to do this and that.

And then you just go, I guess I just kind of have to do Red October, right? We didn't nudge you and you were like, I know I've talked about it in a lot of places. I've talked about it at length. I maybe shouldn't fight this and I should just do Red October. Right. Yeah. Would you say this is one of your all-time favorite movies or is it just a movie that so embodies the type of thing you'd like in movies

that you sort of end up going back to it a lot? I think it's both of those things. It is 100% one of my all-time favorite movies. It's a comfort movie for me. I can put this on whenever and just sort of vibe out to it. It's impossible for me to try to do other things while watching it,

because basically Tim and Sinem just like locked in. Like this is very compelling and I'm happy to watch it. It's also, when I say it's a different movie, you know, I've maybe mentioned this on the show before, but my parents were in the military and they were in the Navy in particular. I grew up on a Navy town and a lot of time on Navy bases,

knew some submariners, like some of my friends' parents were sub-mariners. Name more? Sorry. Yes. First I thought I heard name one, and I was like, that's weird. Name a sub-mariner. Name more?

Yeah, they were more. Yes, yeah, yeah. Basically started this. A very specific and intense job that you have to, like they put you through a lot of batteries of tests for, right for you're gonna have to get used to being in a windowless box for months for months and having little wings on your ankles Which most people can't pull off it really is worth saying they are on those things for months. Yeah, but anyway, so it's also just I Things that are sort of us navy centric Are very comforting to me because it's just my childhood

It's sort of like the kinds of people the environment I grew up around So it's a comfort movie in that regards for my favorite movies But it also is kind of an encapsulation of a lot of the things I like in movies I was gonna say like I I know that I knew that and I knew it was a comfort for me You watch it and I was curious of like is it also would you put it on like your personal top 10? Cause there are movies like what you're describing where I'm like, that embodies what I like out of a certain type of film, what I wish we had more of,

I could watch it any day, would I put it all the way at my top tier? But this is a movie where you can be like, no, it's a comfort food movie. It's like the perfect example of a genre we don't get enough of. And also you could argue it's kind of like underrated as a serious film.

Like it is not taken seriously enough. I think that's on this rewatch, that was the thing that struck me the most, which is that it's, you know, we lump it in with the Tom Clancy thrillers. Yeah, it's sequel, Patriot games, clear and present danger movies I like, but are a little popier than this is. But

this isn't a lot of ways like a quite serious thriller. There aren't. There's very little action, right? There's very little action to the extent like really be the dramatic arc of Jack Orion in this is less overcoming any physical obstacles, but just trying to persuade people. Like at every stage of the movie, he has to persuade someone until finally we get to the last act where he now has to survive.

There is one gun battle. Yeah, there's a gun. But even then like, I love Crimson Tide, a great submarine film, but that movie is obviously like absurd. Right, it's about an absurd scenario and everyone, it's egos are raging and there's yelling and there's guns being pointed and all that.

I guess that's what I'm throwing as a comparison point. Of like Crimson Tide rules, love it, great example of the thing we don't get enough of anymore, high level craft, comfort food. But you couldn't argue like, this probably should have been nominated for best picture Seriously, that I think that's exactly right crimson tight is is a it's a pulp novel of a film Yes, in Humphrey October is not it is it is a kind of a serious thriller

With some legitimate somber moments in it and moments of real kind of dread, my favorite. And not just because I love his voice, but when Fred Thompson, when the, when the, it looks like an F16 or F14 can't make its landing on the aircraft carrier. And Fred Thompson's like, this is going to get out of control and be lucky to live through it,

which is a great line delivery, is a great scene. It's sort of reminding the audience that like, this is all very scary for these people, what's happening. Yes. But also it's plugged in to obviously what's happening in the real world. It's 1990. Yeah. The Cold War is still ongoing. Right. Soviet Russia is actually kind of in the state of slow motion collapse. This isn't even a recent history movie when it comes out. It is a movie about a different side of the history that people are still in.

Right, exactly. Right, it's just like sliding. I mean, this movie, right, watching this movie in 1990 must have been like watching Dumb Money in 2023. Right, right. Where you're like, I guess we're a little past this, but also kind of still in it. Not really, almost barely, yeah.

Right. I'm looking, are you doing what I'm doing, David? Reading Fred Thompson's IMDB? Well that we're gonna talk about for an hour. No, I'm like looking at best picture nominees from 1990. Sure. That's the Dances of Wolves year, right? I like this movie tremendously. I've seen it before I did have the same thought rewatching this of like this movie actually should be taken more seriously And I'm surprised it wasn't taken more seriously at the moment considering that like the fugitive gets nominated for Best Picture three years later. That's true.

The 90s were an era where there was a sort of balancing of like if you had top level great movie star high craftsmanship adult popcorn movies that punched above their weight class they would be taken seriously as Oscar contenders. Yeah. that punched above their weight class, they would be taken seriously as Oscar contenders. Yeah. And this is certainly a movie like McTurnan wasn't an oscarie filmmaker.

No, what? At all. No, no, he wasn't. Yeah, sorry. But you could see an alternate universe this being the movie that like kicks him up to like, you know what, you get to make more adult kind of films. You're more cerebral and less action. Well, it kind of is in that he makes

Madison Man after this, which I do feel like is him trying that. Yeah. And maybe not succeeding. Yes. The Oscars were just very different back then, because you look at the best picture list, and it's Dance of the Wolves and Goodfellas, which, and Ghost, which were all big hits.

Yes. Those are understand. And then Awakenings, which is sort of like the kind of, you know, middling, prestigey thing, no offense to Awakening's that they used to really go for. And then Godfather part three, which like kind of snuck into that nomination. Yeah. Like that was a weird, I guess we have to do this.

Right. And then later they're like, why did we do that? Yeah. Like, you know, but it's a weird, that's a weird year. Cause a lot of good movies, but it's like a lot of the good movies of 1990 are too weird for the Oscars. It's like this Miller's crossing, total recall, Wild at Heart, Moe better blues.

Like these movies are just a little too odd. Every other movie you've listed though, I agree with being too odd and I look at this. This is not too odd. This is too commercial, I guess. Like, I guess that was what they held against it. And you read about McTiernan. I mean, we'll dig into all of this, but McTiernan read this book early, tried to option himself even before he ends up coming back around to getting hired to make this at Paramount and was just like, this is the vehicle to make the kind of movie they don't make anymore. Like in 1990 or in the mid 80s when he reads it for the first time He's like this is a throwback

Which now we're watching it as a throwback to like they don't make them like this anymore Throwbacks to the movies of the 60s, but I could see I mean I could see this is a throwback to it's a throwback to the cane mutiny right it's a throwback to Seven days in May, I don't know. A lot of those sort of like Cold War thrillers set in the halls of power. Right, right. Where it's again, it's mostly,

I mean, most of what is happening, it's just guys talking in rooms. 10 situations, should we do this? What do I go tell the president? Fail safe. I love fail. I love it when guys have to know what they have to go tell the president. Fail safe. I love Phil. I love it when guys have to know what they have to go tell the president. Yeah.

Gentlemen, I have to go tell the president something. The term McTiernan used in an interview when the movie was coming out, he said, it's a sort of old fashioned men's movie. There have been very few of them in the last 20 years. It has adventure and yet it does not offend your intellect. Now old fashioned men's movies are an interesting phrasing, but that feels like the real thing. It has a venture and yet it does not offend your intellect. Now, old fashioned men's movie is an interesting phrasing, but that feels like the real thing. It has a venture and yet it does not offend your intellect. I believe the only woman in this movie is Gates McFadden,

who you see for 30 seconds as Jack Ryan departs. And his daughter, who you see for 30 seconds. Right. Yeah. She actually has a lot more going on than Gates McFadden. Absolutely. The daughter. I'll say another another movie along these lines run silent, run deep.

Never seen that. I've never seen that either. That's a submarine movie submarine movie Cart Gable Bert Lancaster old Cart Gable, right? Yeah, that's Krusty. That sounds good. Have you read The Hunt for Red October the book by Tom Clancy many years ago? Yes when I was in high school Now I will admit I have never read a Tom Clancy novel because they have always been described to me as like filled with descriptions of like how to clean guns and so on and so forth. Like not in a psychotic way,

just in like an incredibly detailed way. In the same way that like Moby Dick is like 90% whale fact. This is what a whale is, except you made him up. He's like whales can talk to plants and stuff. And you're like, sure he can. Well, Herman Herman, yeah, whatever. Yeah. Tom Clancy novels are like,

it's like half intense descriptions of guns, of munitions, of submarines, and then 50% right wing of Jip prop. Right. David's missing the bigger thing here though. There's a clear explanation for why you've never read a Tom Clancy novel. What's that? You don't like flying.

Uh, well, then I would, what? How are you going to read a Tom Clancy novel. What's that? You don't like flying. Well, then I would, how are you going to acquire a Tom Clancy book if you never go to the airport? You can probably get them at a train station. If you try to read them anywhere but a plane, if you try to read them on the ground, I just remember a friend of mine in high school reading Rainbow Six, which is the size of my head. It's a very large book. Yeah. And me being like, that's like the video game.

Like, is it good? And he was like, it's like a lot. It's like really, really heavy. Yeah. Like, because you're like that game, 13 year olds play where they just murk each other. They're like, like, like mountain to like, Griffin, you just described my third year. Yes. Like, it's not like his books are densely written or whatever, but it's just like he just will describe things. I don't know. What is it like? Like, I believe this is the case with red October. Tom Clancy had never been on a US Navy submarine,

but his descriptions of a US Navy submarine were so detailed that federal authorities were like, are you a spy? Right. Their response was, who cleared this? Yes. And so, which is to say that the books were, Tom Clancy himself, an incredible pedant, and the books reflect that there's sort of full of insane detail about this world of military equipment, of military procedure. And Humphrey out of October is very much like this. It's also out of October, the book is much more hawkish and like anti-Soviet than the movie is. The Reagan administration or Ronald Reagan famously loved

this book. That was the origin of his success, right? Was Reagan being like, I like this book. Right, right. And I can imagine, I didn't like that book. I think he said, it's a good yarn. I can imagine, you know, part of you wonders if the difficulty the movie may have had getting made has to do with just like the political valence. Right, the book is seen as maybe a little

too right wing for Lefty Hollywood. There's this great anecdote that, I mean, we'll dig into all this deeper. Yeah, I got it right here. Yeah. Clasper Maria Brandauer dropped out. He was supposed to play Remus, Remus. Facts at the Connery on a Friday to potentially have him show up to film on Monday. That's the stakes and the pressure

and the turnaround of this thing. And he reads it and he's like, it's good, but like, I'm not gonna do the voice. It's good, but like, doesn't it feel a little retrograde? And they realize that when they fax it to him, they had left off the front page that explains the movie is set in 1984.

Right, because it's right. Right, and he was like, this feels like six years behind where we are right now. Yeah. And like that distance for him, then he was like, Oh, it's okay. You know, the space between when Ronald Reagan is like, I endorse this and the time they're actually making the movie is like, well, now it's a little bit of a document. But I'll say, and I'm sure we'll talk about this more later. The movie is not, the movie has a lot of respect for the Soviet Navy, right? For Soviet sailors. And to some extent for the Soviet Union

as sort of like another world power. The fact that the music, the music cue, one of the prominent music cues of the film is the Soviet national anthem and not played for dread, right? Played kind of for triumph and for gravitas. I think that marks it actually as it takes place in 1984, but it really isn't, it really is,

the Cold War is almost kind of over movie. Yes. The Cold War is almost over and we have a lot more in common with these people than we think. Well, and there are two explanations for what you're saying. Yeah. Right? Quote from McTiernan when he's promoting this movie in 1990, which it's pretty wild

that he admitted this at the time while selling the film. But he said to the LA Times, I had a secret agenda while making this film. You may think this sounds silly, but I saw this piece as a second Russian revolution to me the emotional heart of the movie comes from the Soviet sailors sing their national anthem. So he's reading this book early, but immediately digging into like, there is a way to actually not only depict their side of the story with integrity, but make that sort of like a linchpin of perspective.

And then the second thing is, when Connery comes on, suddenly now this guy needs to have a much greater internal life because you need to justify getting one of the biggest movie stars in history to play the villain. And he brings in John Milius and is like rewrite all of the Russian stuff and make it interesting and make it human. All right, Griffin, be quiet for a second. I need to tell you something

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Yeah. It's got to take down the cartels. Please editorialize the, yeah, each one as Jermel list them rainbow six And then there's the one who's a might forget when Right, that's the same Yeah, there's a character named ding Chavez. Yes, that's right That's a good fucking name who's in clear and present danger as well Yes, and there's a book whose name I title, but basically what happens is there's a terrorist attack that destroys the White House. It's very like pre 9 11 9 11. The book, of course, you're talking about,

I believe is called debt of honor. That's right. Yes. And Jack Ryan becomes president. Jack Ryan's kind of like a like the greatest Mary Sue of 90s. Pulp. What if a CIA analyst nerd, but he was also like, he was a Marine? Yeah. Like, let's not forget, became the president, a Republican president, I believe. Of course. Explicitly. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, what a Democrat thing to do. Get the dick sucked. Exactly. Exactly. And it's like, it's like, it's thrust upon. He doesn't, he doesn't do anything so gubberl as like run for president. Disgusting.

No. It's like, he was like secretary or something or other right? Like yeah, everyone dies so he's the national security advisor or something so he has to be the president. Oh, yeah executive orders That's the first one where he's the president and he's like right He's a he's a hero of brain and intellect, but also he is only played by the most handsome men in Hollywood. Well, that's what's so interesting about the Jack Ryan character, because again, Envision as not a slubby middle-aged white guy, like a middle-aged, the best a middle-aged white guy could be basically. Right, sure. He's something of a Clancy analog.

Right, right. He's Irish Catholic, much like Clancy. He's, you know, he's a nerd. And it's like this power fantasy. It's like, you know, the things that make you unappealing and that make you kind of a butt of cultural jokes are actually the things that make you the hero in this story. And you are, you're also physically capable. You don't need to be, right?

And in this movie Ryan's really only physical in the last like 10 minutes. Yeah So you need to be physically capable, but you are yes, and you can I'm ready to go right if people throw down I'm ready to go. I do think Baldwin as much as Baldwin something of a pretty boy. Yeah Baldwin star of this film Is the best Jack Ryan? I like the Ford much as Baldwin, something of a pretty boy, out of Baldwin, the star of this film, is the best Jack Ryan. I like the Ford movies a lot, but they just feel like Harrison Ford is the hero. The big thing that jumped out to me.

He has less of a sense of Jack Ryan. He's just like, I'm Harrison Ford, American hero. Like, you know, that's what I'm doing. But even, I think Ford still works in the character precisely because he's sort of like peak middle-aged white man. He's one. Totally. Everyone wanted to be right in the same way.

And then with the later entries Ben Affleck and some of all fears and then Chris Pine and Jack Ryan Shadow recruit and then John Krasinski. The definitive Jack Ryan. Yes, of course. In the Zamas on series, I think those miss the point of the character. Well, they all start to push him more towards a conventional action hero. Yeah, he's more borny. Right. Yeah. Jack Ryan Sheddock's recruit is a terrible movie, but it's pretty awful. But I don't know. I saw it in theaters. I like some of all theaters. I actually like that movie quite a bit. Even though I don't think it's good. I do enjoy watching it. I saw that in theaters opening weekend.

I don't remember it very well, except for, watching it. I saw that in theaters opening weekend. I don't remember it very well, except for, of course, that a nuclear bomb blows up at the Super Bowl and kills the president, which is a bummer for that guy. David, I also saw that movie opening weekend when I was like 14. I was like 15 years old. Like, and this was in Britain. Like that movie did not move in Britain. It's like no one in Britain cares about Jack Ryan. They might care about Rainbow Six.

That movie had a Game Boy color game. That movie was just like straight down the middle, summer blockbuster for children. Yeah, I guess so. And yeah, that's the thing I'm watching this movie about, like, yeah, guys with epaulets being like, and you know, what is, what is the deputy director saying? I stake my career on it.

I did see it opening weekend. Uh, Leaves Shriver plays John Clark in that one, I believe. Yes. Yes. I mean, this is the thing that's fun, much like the Hannibal series. The thing that's fun with the Clancy movies, the Ryanverse films, is tracking the different castings of every supporting part. Right.

And being like, how weird is it that those four guys all played that same character? Right. John Clark has been played by Willem Dafoe, Lee Shriver, and of course Michael B. Jordan and Without Remorse. Three identical actors. Which is Without Remorse is one of those like movies I watched on streaming. I totally forgot about Without Remorse. It happened just like, I saw it. I was like, oh, do you Jack Ryan think I watched this?

Or do you like Clancy think I watched this? Clancy, I mean, it's based on a Clancy book. So, the hunt for October, of course, it's a famous sort of rags to riches story. Tom Clancy is just an insurance agent. He writes this insane novel in his spare time, submits it to the Naval Institute Press. The person there, they've basically only ever published like manuals, but they're like, well, maybe we can publish fiction. The editor reads it and is like, I think this is a potential bestseller

if I can strip like a hundred pages of submarine descriptions out of it. Like whatever is published is edited down from whatever he initially submitted. And as you say, the famous line is, the Naval Secretary said, who the hell cleared this book basically? He'd never been on a submarine.

He was paid $5,000. Ronald Reagan said, he none of cleared this book basically? Yeah. He'd never been on a submarine. He was paid $5,000. Ronald Reagan said, he no, no, it was my kind of yarn and it became a huge hit. And so the book was optioned early for just $40,000 and churned away and was ignored. McTuren, like you said, was initially interested. Yeah. And this is the 80s. I think this book is probably seen, like you said, was initially interested. Yeah. And this is the 80s. I think this book is probably seen as like a little too cerebral and boring.

That was the thing. People were reading the breakdown once it had been optioned and was being pitched as a studio film. They're like, well, it's expensive because it requires big submarines and special effects, but it's mostly about conversations and it's incredibly dense and technical. And there's a lot of information that you need to impart upon the audience and keep them interested in, which is like a very hard task. I think most people just went like too difficult. But they eventually get the Navy on board. And why does the Navy get interested in being

involved with this movie, Jamal? I do not know. Top Gun had just come out and done such great business for them, essentially. They were jealous. For the naval aviation and all that, that they were like, maybe this can be a recruitment troop tool for supper-eaters. They thought this was the text that would make people sign up to go inside the submarine. Like the least cool in a way, or at least sort of the least, I mean, the toughest one to want to do is serve on a pretty sad haunted story. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You talked with Tony Gilroy about this, I believe on his episode of your podcast. Um, I wouldn't even go in. I'm going to present danger. What should I call up by now? Yes. I wouldn't even go in the submarine for a tour or would I, would you go into the submarine,

say you're making a movie about a submarine with the top open? That I might do, but I wouldn't go down. I would 100% go down. I think I could totally be in a submarine. I'm not claustrophobic at all. It doesn't bother me. That bends on board too. I think I could totally do a submarine.

I think the minute they closed the top and were like, noises started to happen, I would actually have a panic attack and I would run out of the, there'd be like a David Hole in this, and like water rushing in. I would say, there are few environments I think of as being less inviting and less appealing to me

than a submarine. And I think I have I like boats I like the water. I'm not opposed to those. You know what I don't like the water. I don't like the water I don't like the water I don't think I deal with Clostrophobia as much but I don't like the water and then being in in the water in a in a tube Without we don't yeah, I've so I've never been on when I've been I think I mentioned that episode I've been on aircraft carriers. I've been on sort of like other naval vessels. Those are those are like in a whole order

That's like, you know, it's a difference between being in a mansion and being in like a tiny, you know Studio apartment right like a aircraft carriers truly a massive thing the interesting thing to me about Submarines sort of submarines in film was there a lot of submarine movies I think all of them are usually pretty decent because I think it's just like a, it's a space that is good for creating drama. Yes. No one can go anywhere. And so all things must be hashed out,

like people are right next to each other and it's, it works for drama. It's like boxing movies where you're like, why did boxing movies have a better track record than any other sport in America? And it's like, because it's just, it boils down to two people. Right.

We're working out their differences in a physicalized form. Boxing is literally cinematic. Right. And like a submarine is kind of like a physicalized version of the pressures of any sort of military operation. Yes. It's interesting to me that the the conceit of the submarine movie has not been used in sort of like other kinds of genres.

Like there aren't very many space movies. There should be more space submarine movies. That are sort of called submarine movie has not been used in sort of like other kinds of genres. Like there aren't very many space movies. There should be more space submarine movies that are sort of call submarine movies. We were before we started recording, I was talking a bit about Master and Commander. That's like, there's like, there's like two ship movies. But Master and Commander is in a lot of ways like a submarine movie. That's a good take. Something like Sunshine has a submarine vibe to it. I mean, it's the thing I love about that movie.

There's space movies. Obviously, they try to get at the claustrophobia, but no, I would like more. I think Sunshine, I mean, we've talked about this, but the thing that's so great in Sunshine is that feeling of like, these people have all been stuck in here together with each other for so long.

And you're starting at this like kind of breaking point. But like Sunshine is not as much a military movie. Obviously they are like, they have ranks and stuff. But like the submarine is also about like, this is a tightly honed psychological ecosystem. Like you really do listen to that guy and like- There are hierarchies that must be followed. There are rules that have to be attended to which is what I love about

Crimson Tide is that George Zunza is like I can't I I have to decide what Denzel cuz like that's what my military brain is telling me to do Like that's that's how this should be working and even though I didn't like him Can I read these two quotes about the notion of this movie being a potential recruitment tool? Sure of this movie being a potential recruitment tool? Sure. So, J.H. Patton Jr. says, Top Gun did well as a recruitment tool for pilots, but it probably hurt the submarine force

because we compete for the same kids. So, they're not only looking at what Top Gun did with jealousy, but they're like, that actually bit into our audience. It made that shit seem too cool. Because that's a fucking comic book movie where the coolest guy in the world Tells everyone to go fuck off Does everything exactly the way he wants to it looks awesome never wants to fuck him, right?

And like oh a couple less cool guys unfortunately die along the way. He has tragic loss But he's the rebel and nothing can stop him, right? Yeah, and then captain Michael T Sherman says, the submarine service has been quote, the silent service, both practically and philosophically, that will change with red October. The public is going to be amazed at the technology and the skill involved.

Now, what he's saying is correct and that that is exactly what's interesting about this movie, but is not something that makes a 15 year old, holy shit, I gotta do that. In the way that Top Gun, you watch that and you're like, I could be fucking Superman. And the funny and interesting thing is that like, Crimson Tide, which is much more along,

I mean, another Tony Scott picture, much more along those lines, is still way more cerebral than Top Gun, right? Like, it's just like, I don't think it's possible to make an action packed Top Gun-esque movie about being on a submarine. Impossible. You can make a fun movie like down Paris. Ben's favorite.

Yeah, you could do a down periscope, certainly. And that, I mean, that entices people because they're like, I can have a bunch of friends and we can get into some hijinks. I'm lonely, but if I join the crew of a summary. So, John McTernan has long been interested in this movie. He's initially maybe going to make a flight of the intruder, which John Milius ends up making. Yes. Not a well-known movie.

That's the Defoe one. It's not Danny Glover. And yeah. It's all right. It's right. It doesn't really work out. He does, as you Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all right. It's right. It doesn't really work out. He does, as you say, call it an old-fashioned men's movie, has adventure and yet does not

offend your intellect. This quote I like though, and I feel like you'll like Griffin, he says also, it's Treasure Island. It's the story of a boy who has to go off and find the scariest man of the sea on earth, and he turns out to be a sweet old bastard. Once I realized that, I had the movie. It's a through line I love in McTiernan that whether he's right or wrong It's it's a comment across his best films in his worst films

He always has a quote that JJ has pulled up. That's like at some point a click for me I read the script and I went oh, it's blank where he's like diehard is Midsommers Night Dream Like last action hero is King Kong like he's like, there is some kind of mythic text that I'm looking at and I'm mapping the story onto that, which is kind of smart in this way where he makes films with very complicated plots and a lot of characters. And then he like relates it to a very successful totemic version of the basic core of what the movie is. And then he said, like, as they were adapting the film around this, he was just like, take the elements from the book that map onto Treasure Island most. That's the thing. They're going through this 700 page book with Larry Ferguson, the screenwriter.

Yeah. And he's just like, does this have Treasure Island vibes? Keep it. Does it not? It's got to go. Yeah. Tom Clancy very upfront about like, I realize once someone told me one page equals one minute of screen time, I realized half my book was going to have

to go basically. Yeah. I made my peace with it. Like he seems positive on this movie. And also, I mean, I know he's dead now. R.A.P. like, you know, but, um... David's pointing to this guy. I had that thought as well. Um, We all thought about pointing

Tom Clancy does not seem like someone who is especially worried about his name being used for branding and merchandise I'm sure he was just happy that it's gonna be a movie How much Xbox do you think Tom Clancy played? Given that his name was on like 50 Xbox games. Well, he liked SSX tricky, right? That's the one I know. He didn't even like Rainbow Six, but he did play a lot of fable. Yeah. So McChurrin decides to do this instead of Sergeant Rock.

If you guys know Sergeant Rock, the comic book character, DC military hero, Steven DeSousa had written that up. With Joel Silver and Schwarzenegger. It was going to be like a full predator routine. Yes. And he was going to make this insane sort of action pack Sergeant Rock movie. He wanted John Cleese to be in it.

Passes him the script and Cleese is like, this sucks. Yeah. It's just a bunch of action scenes. And then John McTurnin loses interest because he's like, without Cleese, this movie won't have whatever it is I want. Right. And you know, Sergio Mac was like a character and a tone and like a imagery, but he,

the comics are very interesting, but he's like, there's no core story there. And they wrote this script that kind of had no core story outside of like extremity and intensity. And I was like, there has to be some test for him, make it a like odd couple of comedy of manners with John Cleese as like an uptight British officer. And he was like, if that's the thing, then I can do all the extremity around that. And I think he said that like,

at the moment they offered to Cleese, Predator hadn't come out yet, where he kind of felt like, if Predator existed as a proof of concept, he would have gotten it. We haven't asked, but I assume you like the films Predator and Die Hard. I do like the films Predator and Die Hard. I think they're pretty good. I think they're very good, yes.

Old fashioned men's movies. Yeah, old fashioned men's movies. You know, as my grandfather liked to enjoy movies, a man covered in mud, fighting a monster. Big lizard with crazy teeth. Two great dirty men movies. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Number one choice for Jack Ryan, Kevin Costner.

Night off of the Untouched. A ton of sense, of course. That checks out. America's man. Yeah. It's like he's probably the closest thing to Redford. Like the new Redford, right? Like just kind of like, yeah, fair haired kind of, you know, a, a list face.

Right. Uh, he says no. Then he wants Harrison Ford. Very, very badly. Buttonholes him at the premiere of Working Girl. Harrison Ford says he wants to play the Russian captain. Interesting. He gets his chance with K-19, the Widowmaker, uh, many years later. And he proves us all right or not Have you seen k19 I have not seen k19

It's a bleak movie. It's really boring. It's a little bit texting about it the other day They just announced it's finally coming out on 4k and And we're like I guess we're gonna give this another spin like give it another try We're gonna buy it no Factory is going through the effort. If you fucking buy that, that is one of the worst movies we've ever done on this show. 4K screen straight from the negative. You know, it's about a nuclear disaster, a real life, you know, so it's a lot of people dying of radiation sickness on a submarine.

It's really, really, really. In certain ways, I do think it's the most boring movie we've ever covered on the show and it's not the in certain ways. I do think it's the most boring movie We've ever covered on the show and it's not the worst Yeah, but it is a movie where it's like stoic Harrison Ford playing Russian Which allows him to go even more stoic Everything goes wrong ten minutes in and then all the men sort of silently stand there and go like my guess We're all just gonna die slowly Who else is in working girl?

The other person's in working girl is one Alec Baldwin. Alec Baldwin. And Baldwin's perspective on how he ends up getting the role is, I was at the point in my career where there were five guys who had to die before I got the part, they had to pass or die. Thankfully, none of them died. OK, Alec. Jesus, almost any quote I read. Well, let me finish the quote. Let me finish the quote.

That's the end of the quote. OK, never mind. It's not that good. Baldwin, obviously, best known at that point is a supporting player, Beetlejuice, married to the mob, working girl, she's having a baby. But it was basically a strategy, right? Like him knowing if he goes up for the leading man parts, if there's a good script in town, all those guys fight for it. He's not going to get it unless they all pass.

So his strategy for years was like, go after the more interesting supporting parts in the hot scripts with the good directors and good movie stars. So he'd rather be like color in married to the mob or working girl or Beetlejuice, where he is ostensibly the lead, but in a way that no one will ever give him credit for being. This is like his first strike at like,

let me try the leading man thing. Cause he basically- It's this and Miami blues same year. Yeah, Miami blues is the other one. Well, and his calculation he basically said was like- Sly movie. Yeah, yeah, real scumbag movie, not bad at all. The good leading man projects I'm gonna lose to Costner.

I look enough like a leading man that people will offer me the chance to be top of the call sheet, but that's gonna be in projects that kind of suck. Or like Miami Blues a little more R rated. Right, yeah, Costner's not gonna do that kind of role. But this is him finally evolving to that. It's like, this is after five or six years of,

let me pop in the good films, without needing to be the guy at the center until someone finally gives me a shot on a weirder film like Miami Blues or a movie like Conferred October where everyone else passed. McChernan says he wanted the character to be an empty vessel the audience could put themselves into. And he thinks Baldwin maybe is working a little too hard in the role. Baldwin himself also says that today.

I think that's why Jack Ryan works in this movie because it's a try hard. I think it's why Jack Ryan works in this book because it's a tryhard. I think it's the reason why he actually has a better handle on him than any other guy. Yeah. Because it's that thing of like a nerd who kind of reads as cool. What we're saying about like him being in a leading man's body, him being this kind of like idealized version of whatever middle-aged dad wants to be, right? Yes. But the secret is that he is just kind of like a dork. Like he's like a numbers dork. I was like, I'm gonna agree completely

with both, both with this take. Like Harris, I like Harrison Ford in the role, but it's Harrison Ford. We all know Harrison Ford is just like effortless cool. That's like his thing. He's an effortlessly cool guy. Authority, just like competence. It's all right there. And his Ryan is sort of like, yeah, he's an effortlessly cool guy. Authority, just like competence, it's all right there. And his Ryan is sort of like, yeah,

he's a very competent guy and you don't have to worry that Harrison Ford's Jack Ryan is gonna ultimately do the right thing or accomplish the task. Harrison Ford's Jack Ryan can stand up to the president and yell at him in the Oval Office, like in Clear and Present Danger. Alec Baldwin's Jack Ryan is nervous talking at a meeting. Yes, and what I-

Without the president. Yeah, without the president. Just a bunch of admirals. He's smart, he's competent, but he's kind of like a grad student. Right, he's like a little nervous, a little sort of like, I don't know if I should be here. I'm gonna tell you what I think

and I have strong opinions about what I think because I've read a lot of fucking books. You goddamn idiots. But it'll take me a bit to get to that point of being resolute about what I think. And at the first, I'm gonna be like, I don't know if I necessarily should be here. No, Baldwin's take was like,

he saw the empty vessel thing as a challenge rather than like what McTurne wanted was just audience surrogate. Just have a guy hold the center of the movie, look the right way, hit the mark, say the line, have some basic charisma. Baldwin was like, my assignment is to build a character inside of this.

And also because he'd been taking these flashier supporting roles there's like a lot of stuff for him to Grab on to in these other movies where it's like you're a ghost you're a mobster He was like, you know, I get a script and I'd be like, what's my dialect? How do I dye my hair? What are what glasses do I put on and this it's like no, they're selling you as the guy This is your first test of like, you are a conventional movie star. And he was so eager to be like, I gotta fill this character with shit.

I gotta find handles. I gotta make him interesting. And that when he watches the movie now, he feels like, do less, do less. Like I'm watching it and saying, do less. The fact that Jack Ryan as a character doesn't know to do less is what makes this performance interesting?

Because as you're saying, it's like, he feels like the guy who doesn't realize I am handsome and charismatic and cool. And I could play this scene off the way that like James Earl Jones does. His eagerness to like, what you're saying, the grad student thing of like show the work, he really needs to like oversell his points.

And even that scene where he figures out for the first time and starts laughing and everyone turns to him and they're like, what? That's a moment where Ford does that. It's like when he starts laughing, everyone goes quiet and goes like, holy shit, what is this guy figured out? And when Baldwin's Jack Ryan does it, it's like, this is kind of embarrassing. Is this guy using his shit? No, it's a classic nerd guy. It's a classic this is kind of embarrassing. Is this guy using his shit? You know, it's a classic nerd guy.

It's a classic nerd guy thing. Oh, this weird nerd is like laughing about something he figured out in his brain. Please stop it. I think he's truly unconsciously playing it like a guy who got hot late in life. Yeah, yeah. A guy, a guy.

Right? A guy, I feel like I knew people like this in high school, right? Sort of like, yeah, you're summering, you're 14, you're playing Magic the Gathering and then they go off to camp and they come back. And all of a sudden it's like you've grown three feet and have like facial hair now. But you're still cleared up. Right. You still want to play Magic the Gathering.

Right. And most of it. I still want to play it right now. They're the group of guys who like have that transformative summer and come back and they're just like, I'm big time in everyone I get it. I looked in the mirror. I understand what I'm playing with now My whole style is different and then there are guys who seem unaware Right that the outside perception of them has changed, right? And yeah, he's still just playing magic the gathering. Yeah I would play magic the gathering with you Jamel or with Jack Ryan

I have a great Macrim deck if anyone ever wants to take me on. Klaus Maria, I just want to quickly say, if you ever feel like playing the Awesome Powers collectible card game, which is my equivalent, I have a complete set here. I have a do if you want to take some cards with you. I have a packet of Judge Dread 95 trading cards. That sounds extremely cool.

But is it a game? Are there rules? I don't think it's a game. I think it's just trading cards. If you ever want to take magic mushrooms, just get together. I'll do that too. Okay, cool. Clos Maria Brandar is originally who had, you know, he's obviously a filmmaker as well, but he had been nominated for an Oscar for out of Africa. So he's kind of like on a slightly bigger stage. That is the classic.

You get that kind of supporting actor nomination. You're going to be able to for the next 10 years cash in on playing a big budget early European guy, like 100%. He's he drops out at the last minute to star and direct in the film seven minutes about a carpenter who tried to kill Hitler. I've never seen it. They send the emergency facts to Connery, obviously. And McTurnan basically is immediately saying to him, like, you don't need to do an accent. Yes. Like, I am not going to make you stomp around and be like, you know, talking in Russian.

Like, I'm going to sell everyone on you as this character just by you being you. Connery's two things when he reads it are the doesn't this feel a little out of date thing, which they correct. And then he goes like, it convinced me that the audience isn't going to laugh at me basically, right? Yes. Which McTurnan says the right thing of just like, I'll frame the movie around you and make people accept. Now, Connery has also accepted his baldness. He's bald in the Untouchables.

He wants to be bald in this. And McTurnan had envisioned this guy is looking like Samuel Beckett The Irish playwright and talks Connery into the hairstyle, which I think is iconic. I think you have that I think you have that Great, what I think you have that flipped. I Think oh he said the Beckett thing. You're right. You're right, right? Cuz Connery was wearing pieces from the beginning of his James Bond run But because yes, that's there was no James Bond movie where it's 100% his real.

No, yeah, he lost his hair very early, it's true. But obviously for like a very handsome, dashing, physical leading man, no one was gonna let him be bald on screen. So he was always wearing tubes to some degree. And even as they started to like gray out, go back a little bit, he was like, no studio would let him go tubeless.

And then I do think it was a big decision of like, last crusade, untouchables, he's playing Elder States role now. But when he takes it off, it's like total dome. And as he put it to McTiernan and other people at the time, McTiernan was aware of this, that he was like, I feel like there's a greater honesty in my acting now, because I'm just existing

and I'm like removing layers of artifice around it. But McTiernan made it a challenge to him. The way, instead of saying you need to wear a tube, said I want you to come up with a physical analog for how you'd like to look. And Connery said Samuel Beckett and then he modeled the, yeah. Alec Baldwin's terrified once he steps on set says this is a good quote.

Because the thing with Baldwin is you know, you can be very quotable. We're going to talk about Baldwin. He says, I'm so screwed, I'm invisible in this movie now. This guy looks like $10 million stacked end to end. No one's even going to see me in this movie. That's a phenomenon. That's such an evocative quote. It's a great quote.

And it's true like, Connery, just the second you see him, you're like, this guy has been in this submarine for 30 years. years. Like, I don't know why it is. He just really does have Gravid Hus beyond anyone else. But it is fascinating. I mean, Baldwin has talked about this so much, right? There's obviously so much about what is the actual story of him no longer getting to play Jack Ryan in the further films. And there's so many different tellings of it that tellings always change and probably seems like a combination of factors. But he's talked about so much like he gets this part, the part that he can

only get if ten guys in front of him all pass on. Here's the lottery ticket he's been waiting for. He tells the story about signing the contract and getting on a plane, I think back from his test or to whatever and Seeing like one out of every five people on this plane is reading a Tom Clancy novel, right? Suddenly it hitting him the enormity of like I basically just been cast as like the American James Bond Yeah, this is like the part that's gonna transform my entire career and the whole development in the movie is framed as like, this is your thing, this is going to launch you, this is a tailor-made blockbuster, a franchise ready to go.

It's, he's the whole time thinking, it's with Kloss, we're a brand, yeah, that guy's gonna fucking deliver. Sure, but like he's not gonna. He's on this movie star, right? Right, and then, yeah, Connery comes on and it's just like immediately, the poster is Connery's face.

Connery's name is above the title. His name is below the title. Everything shifted entirely, not to mention Connery bringing in Milius and being like, beef up my part. Yes. Make my side more interesting. Apparently, yes. Connery, quite scary. Doesn't suffer fools gladly. McTurnan said was scared of him, but the second day at the end of the day,

Connery said to McTurnan, goodnight, boy. Yeah. And McTurnan realized that was feel great. Exactly. He was like that. I felt very warm. I knew that was like him, you know, kind of extending warmth to me. Says, you know, he loves movies.

We're moving the cameras around a lot. And he was interested by that. Like, you know, I think he's like a lot of those stars where it's like, if he figures out that you're smart, he's probably gonna make a living out of it. No, McTiernan had like a somewhat new bracing visual and cutting style at that time. And Connery's perceptive enough and like invested enough in the movie at large that when he sees the way the set

is being run and clocks the kind of movie he's constructing, it's like, you've passed my test. I approve of you, I respect you. McTurin and his other biggest casting decision is James Earl Jones, as Admiral Greer. That character is not black in the book. But obviously James Earl Jones also has auto gravitas. Yes.

And he's in at least one of the Ford movies as well, right? Yeah, he is in. He is in. He's in Clear and Present Danger for sure. Because he dies in Clear and Present Danger. Rip. If I have that right. David is saluting.

It's this era of his career, which I love. Field of Dreams is what, you know, the year before sneakers is the year after just like him being this kind of like wise dad guy like in you know, some supporting role. I love James Earl Jones. But also in a position of real authority. Yes. I mean, this is the thing that we've talked about on Clear a Bunch with a lot of these movies,

but this is like a period where you're beginning to see these like black male figures of traditional authority throughout movies, like cops, politicians, judges, military. Right. And it's like an interesting, it's an interesting turn in sort of like, who gets to be an authority figure. But McTurin's line, I mean, not a lead actor. Yeah. Not a lead actor. No, no, no. The audience don't identify with this person

But if if this guy tells you you got to cut it out cut it out right right And McTiernan's a description he said the combination of sternness rectitude and warmth And it's like right that's the whole fucking thing that like if it's the guy who's got to listen to what the hero is saying and either approve or disapprove, James Earl Jones has that balance simultaneously where the guy is terrifying and so comforting. Right. It's like the reason he is would not want to make him disappointed in me. Right. That he's like Hall of Fame cinematic dad as both best and worst example,

basically, right? Cause you're like, all you want is for this guy to approve of you. Right. And when he disapproves, it's the scariest thing in the world. Now, my favorite performance is Scott Glenn as Commander Bartman Cusso of the USS Dallas, because he never raises his voice. Yeah. Like, he never even really seems like some kind of like Ramrod captain guy.

And that is the thing that feels like the truest to me about what this environment must be really be like. His quote, which is good, is that he went on a real sub and he's like, subs aren't like, you know, the way I thought they were at all. Like, when, you know, when you go to battle stations, the chain of command is very formal and rigid and specific, but all the other times things are loose. You call guys by their first and last names. The captain is like a father, big brother, guy. It's interesting to think about. Like, is that specific to submarines?

Do you think? Because they're so close to it. I think about it. I mean, I wouldn't know personally, but my guess should be yes. It's easy to see how you get that dynamic. It is so small and tight and you're never really escaped from anyone

that there is just looseness of it. Sort of like you're kind of all bunking together. But because everything about submarine work has to be so precise, when you're kind of on the job proper, it just, you gotta chain a command. Right. Proper hierarchy.

Everyone needs to listen to whoever gives them specific orders. Right. At all. I watched this with the commentaries I've been doing with a lot of these because I think the commentaries are very good. They sound like they're really good. Yeah. The one for this is good.

He's a candid guy. Yeah. And like this is one where, and I've seen the old Blu-ray review sites criticize a lot of his commentaries for this, whether like a lot of dead space. And I'm like, I'd rather a guy who only speaks when he actually has something to say. And then the rest of the time I can just listen to the movie.

But he said that like one of his big conceptual gambits for this movie was in the submarines go kind of 50-50 in casting between actors and actual former or current submariners. Sure. Right? Sure. And his idea was like the people with actual submarine experience will teach the actors behaviorally.

What you're sort of saying, the Scott Glenn thing of like the tone, the sort of control, the focus, to make it sort of feel like the real version of sub-marining rather than the movie version. And then he was like, and these guys who don't have acting experience, they'll learn from the actors. They'll be on a set with Courtney B. Vance and Scott Glenn and whatever.

Courtney B. Vance, greatness. Unbelievable. We'll talk about him. The thing he said was like day one, the submarine guys were all incredible. Right. And he was like, why? And they were like, we do drills all the time. Right. Right. It's a regular part of our job that they come in, they go, here are the circumstances and then we have to play out like that's

happening and play a totally real with stakes where he was like, those guys were incredible. Right. And the actors actually had to learn a lot. A guy like Scott Glenn is probably pulling a lot from the guys surrounding him on the set and going like, huh, that's interesting behaviorally. I think it's why this movie is so good. The sets are so good.

They're all built sets, obviously. The sub-footage itself is this murky, dark footage. It's not very blockbuster-y, right? Like it's very realistic. It's, I don't know, I feel like most submarine movies, like the torpedo launching. I was thinking that in the final confrontation, I think in a typical blockbuster, you would have almost like a torpedo camp.

You'd always, it'd always be cutting back exactly to the torpedo showing you where it's coming. And the hunt for October, it's just, it's just, it's Courtney Bivance saying 6,000 yards, 5,000 yards. And it's all focused on the people in the submarine and on their skill and their expertise and all of that like that's that's where the attention is not so much The torpedo but sort of like how are they reacting to all of this? Yes? I was gonna say as well that one thing, you know one thing I like about What is like a lot of like quite naturalistic performances,

it's like it's not very showy is that when it comes time to go into action, they're all very competent, right? You get to see the captain of the Dallas at the end demonstrate. This is why he is a submarine captain, right? This is why he can do this. I think it, the way the actors kind of move between we're just listening, we're paying attention, things are tense, but like we're, we're not on alert. And then it's alert. Sean Connery does it perfectly when he has to move from what's going on to we are in a combat situation. It's sort of like it's an on off switch.

And it's sort of a cool trick to watch. There's a couple quotes you've just triggered in my mind, but I wrote this down because I wanted to verbatim from the commentary where there's a moment where McTaren's like silent and then he goes like, this really is kind of a throwback, right? I guess movies have changed so much. They don't make things like this anymore. And then he's sort of talking through the difficulty of imagining pitching this to a studio and going through the development process without them trying to flash it up, add big explosions, fistfights or whatever. And he goes like, because it doesn't feel like traditionally exciting. And then he just pauses and he says,

it's a silent world of navigation and mathematics and engineering, which I'm like, that's the thing that he loves about this movie that he seems so thrilled that he got through of like, it is a quote-unquote action movie where there's basically no action and the actual action is this sort of stakes you infer from the looks in people's eyes as they do the calculations in their heads, which he makes feel thrilling. Yeah. Then talking about the sort of having to build the submarine, he said, because a lot of movies, they'll build a set that's bigger to fit the cameras in, they'll design things in a way that's more cinematic or helps the story.

And his approach was the opposite, like build it exactly the way submarines are built, and then we work off of that and he said Everything is in a particular place in a submarine because they've learned this is the best way to do it Almost every piece of equipment on a submarine is there in that particular way Because somebody probably gave his life to learn that it was a mistake to put it some other way Which is such a good way of like well, you're saying those moments of silently people moving and shifting or doing a thing with such authority. It's like, right, this is all learned. These are guys who are so hardened by like, there's one way to do this correctly without everything going fucking sideways. And so they built everything exactly that way where he's like,

let's get that accuracy, especially because when we're going to bring the real former submariners in here, they need to know that it's like passing the smell test. And then he said, then they took like aircraft technology which was a little shinier and flasher and cooler looking and use that to like perk up everything the way it was. And then the real submariners come in and like start freaking out. What was it? What's the line here?

The irony was when some of the Navy brass came and were visiting the set They looked around and they asked two or three times how we arrived at these changes in the set I explained that we just applied aircraft technology instead of shipbuilding technology They sort of relaxed at that point and then explained to me that that was exactly what they had done in the design of the Seawolf submarine that they were just turning out the first copy of. It was supposed to be super secret at that point and we stumbled into it. They thought they had a leak or something. How fucking cool is that?

That multiple times across the development of this book and this movie, people were like, who's the fucking mole? Who is the spy who's blowing this for everybody? Wow, there's only three Seawolf submarines. They're supposed to build 29 and then the Cold War ended. I wanna say it's a cool name. It is cool. It's very cool.

Yeah, it's cooler than Ohio class or whatever. No offense to Ohio. What do you mean nuclear submarines to the United States? How many do we currently have running? Yeah, that's a great question. We were talking before about what's scary about submarines, and it was all just like the psychology of living inside of it. That's the other thing.

You're living inside like a silo underwater filled with clear power. Yeah, I mean, when you kind of zoom out and think about what we what we built a nuclear submarine is a Virtually silent machine. Yeah that can launch Weapons that in the world and no one would know until it was too late correct And it's also simultaneously almost as effective at breaking men's spirits and minds Psychological torture device if not managed properly. And you know, there's these like, there's the USS Scorpion, there's K-129, there's these nuclear submarines that we lost that we don't know why.

I have a couple of them. Okay, cool. Yeah. You know, cool conspiratorial. They're so mysterious and strange nuclear subs because they can just go down there. I mean, that's how this movie ends. It's still in Skarsgard blows up. Yeah. And no one's going to really be able to check just go down there. I mean, that's how this movie ends is still in scars. Guard blows up. Yeah.

And no one's going to really be able to check on what happened there because it would be too hard. Right. Right. Like, you can't get away with it. Yeah. You can't go too deep. David.

Yeah. The economy. No, I know that's actually more robust than the press would have you think. But you know what? What? It's hard talking about the economy in this economy It ain't cheap talking about the economy are doing an ad read in this economy Look, I used to spend over a hundred dollars a month on streaming services. Yeah, yeah

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Don't forget to use my link so you can get three extra months for free. That's expre our ESS VPN comm slashpn.com slash check to learn more. It's my link too. It's a shared link. It would join custody. Okay. Okay, buddy. So the film begins with Marco Ramis. Ramya Ramis. It opens with a really tight close-up on the eyes of a man who is about to steal the entire movie out from Alec Baldwin's nose. That's true.

Like, it's what Baldwin's talking about of like, this movie just knows where the money is now. I won't be letting it go. Yes. He is the captain of the Red October, which is a typhoon class submarine with a caterpillar drive. Now the caterpillar drive is the thing that is fake. Yes.

That is the thing that is fanciful. Okay. Like typhoon class submarines are real, but I do not believe caterpillar drives are real at this time. I don't know. Maybe at all. I don't think, yeah. I don't, I don't think so. And the red October name, of course, for the October revolution of 1917 cool name great name

We are also supposed to call out that before the Connery shot you get the super titles of like officially None of this ever really happened. Yes, which is like the movie Prefacing itself with the joke of what we talked about just kept happening where they're like. Yeah, this isn't leaked They really lean into it because they know like, yeah, this isn't leaked. Yeah, right, it's true. They really lean into it because they know how realistic it feels, I guess. And like, what I love is that like, you basically piece together what Ramius is doing

for the whole movie, but he doesn't really say it aloud until right at the end, which is basically like, this thing is too powerful to exist. So I just don't want this to be in charge of this. And yes, there's these supplemental motivations he has. His wife died at the hands of somebody who was then protected by the state, right? Right. For like patronage reasons or whatever.

He's Lithuanian, which they underlined. So he's not like ethnically Russian. So maybe he's a little less loyal to the motherland. I don't know if this is your memory, Jim Alba. McTiernan said that was one of the big things in adapting. I think there's a quote from Ferguson about this as well. They needed to give him a little more. Right. The book, it's like those two things first and foremost.

Why is this guy defecting? It's because, uh, he, well, he doesn't really care that much about Russia because that's not really his birth, right? And also his wife died. And now he's kind of going through an emotional crisis. The sort of principle of it is something that really got added for the movie, right? Which gets to something I was pointing out earlier, which is how much, how much like respected empathy this movie has for Soviet soldiers. I mean, that whole notion that Ramius is doing this as much because he just doesn't think the submarine should exist. It's too dangerous.

It's sort of like, it's essentially saying to an American audience, like, listen, these people aren't maniacs, right? Like these, these are honorable, decent people who live under a different system and don't think that we should be trying to murder each murder us as well. Right. Which is like considering that not just most other fiction at the time, but the news is largely depicting these people as like cackling James Bonville and maniacs. Right. And instead now you have James Bond playing him as a man who's like really

thinking about like the, the moral weight of responsibility to mankind. There's the singing, as you mentioned, like the sense of camaraderie and the boat feels real. Like they don't feel like a bunch of stooge's or maniacs. I'm also going to say all the Russian sailors have great faces. Everyone I feel like was cast for having that kind of a face, right? Obviously the supporting cast here on the boat is Sam Neal and Tim Curry and Thomas Aranya. You can't just quietly go, of course.

The supporting cast on this Russian submarine is Sam Neal and Tim Curry. But even the tertiary faces are good. Yeah. Those are great faces. No, I agree, but the fact that this movie is just throwing those kinds of ingredients in the pot casually over shoulder in every scene. Well, so obviously, Tim Curry, like Rocky Horror is, you know, from long ago, Annie Clue Legend.

Like he's a guy. He's a real guy. Samuel, I feel like, is, you know, he's really been around for a while too. But Jurassic Park is not yet? No. No. That's three years later. And he hasn't done the Carpenter movies yet. But he has done like Dead Calm and Cry in the Dark and Omen 3 and like possession. And you know, he's been he's a noted New Zealand actor, I guess. But also did a lot of Australian film, which is why people mistakenly think he's Australian. He's both or whatever. You know, there's I think he lived in Australia for a long time.

David, people don't like us making assumptions. That's a good point. I dated a Kiwi through college. They don't they really don't like it. I believe he lived in Australia for a long time, but I'm not actually sure. Well, no, he clearly, he did a lot of work there and was strongly associated with a lot of Australian filmmakers. I think he currently owns, does he have a sheep farm? He's always posting from a farm.

Yes. He once dunked on me on Twitter. Really? Really for what? I think I said something about how his neck or chief in Jurassic Park, I said, I love it. It's so silly. And then he like, he dunked on me. He's not silly. I was, I was, I was proud to have attracted negative attention of Sam Neill.

Yeah. He's got like a big farm and he's always Instagramming from it. Looks pretty cool. I think it's also a winery. It's like a venue. Yeah. I mean, he's one of those guys. He's very cool. When I look at old Sam Neill social media, Duncan on Jamel inside, I do think like that seems to be a guy's got to figure out. I look at him and I'm like,

I think that guy's got to have figured out 2-8-T. He does seem pretty no bullshit. It does not seem too affected by massive fame. By anything. Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing this guy does, Ramius, obviously we're on his side because he's Sean Connery. Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing this guy does, Ramius, obviously we're on his side because he's Sean Connery. Yeah. But still, the first thing he does, he sits down with Peter Firth, great actor from Equus, and just fucking just kills his ass. Without

mercy. Yeah. One of my favorite scenes in the movie is when he's telling the officers this, one of them's like We should have at least discussed this. Yeah, which is a fair point and obviously he's I assume his opinion is kind of like you would have said no or You would have felt culpable right me just doing it is it's the correct way to do it Let's also call out the characters name is first lieutenant Putin So anytime in the movie they go Putin is dead. You go like God, wouldn't that be nice? What is not what a nice world was funny, but it was a lift

Putin was he was he was an intelligence officer. Yeah, he was a political out. I mean he was he was this kind of first He was this kind of guy. Yeah, and it just a sliding door opportunity only Sean Conner. He's got his hands on it merrily He presents the lie that he slipped on his tea. Correct. Yeah. After he kills him, he dumps the tea on the ground and kind of put some sprinkle some on the body. Like it's crack and then no need to investigate this. Loose leaves. This guy was a junkie. It just, it feels a little, obviously I know his officers are, are in on this with him in some form, but still it's a little, it's a little clean. But I guess he's also just got the advantage of like,

it's a submarine who's going to fucking come get me. Also you were talking about the military brain thing, especially if you're in a submarine and you're just like hermetically sealed with these people for months at a time, you're just like, if he's saying it, I guess that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Are you really going to challenge your storied commander on this? Especially if he's got this energy, this amount of presence and command.

But it's just like the fascinating thing of like, their orders are not to go in New America. It's not like this is some crisis like, it's they have their orders are not to go in New America. It's not like this is some crisis point from which there is no turning back. It's just like, take your fancy new submarine and do missile drills. It's scary. Yeah. But Connery is already of the mindset of like, no, this like, this is a, this is going to

ruin the world. We must destroy Skyna. Exactly. Yeah. We must. So then he leaves with his sub. And I guess he's near the Dallas, or the Dallas has maybe been shadowing him and then he just disappears.

The sub just disappears and that's what gets everyone excited, right? Yes. That a sub has disappeared off the map. But this is what's great. I categorize this movie in my mind all the time as an action movie. And then when I rewatch it, I'm like, this is a chess movie. Yeah. Right.

This is a movie of like three different parties all trying to read the intent of what the other party is doing. Right. Silently without really having clear lines of communication. Right. Now Connery has helped matters by sending a letter to his buddy in Russia being like, hi, FY FII plan to defect. America great, you stinky. Right. But that guy doesn't want to tell the fucking Americans that.

Like anyone who has information in this movie is being very selective about who they share with. And then there are a lot of theories that people are trying to convince other people of. I mean, there's the fucking Roger Ebert, just like reigning threes left and right from beyond the grave. But what is the line here? He says, this is from his review of the film, 3.5 stars. He said, the movies have one sure way

of involving us that never fails. They give us a character who is right when everybody else is wrong and then invite us to share his frustration as he tries to talk some sense into the block heads. Yes. He is. Roger perfectly said.

Jack is at a table. Always satisfying. With a bunch of hard-nosed American military men who are like, wow, we got to blow this guy up, right? Right. But you understand why they're concerned. I don't know. Yes, right?

I mean, I think that's what makes it work as well. It's not as if their response is unreasonable. No, right? No. And that's what also provides like the necessary friction for this to be dramatically satisfying. Like they have their perspective is 100% reasonable. You're telling me there's a high tech rogue Russian Russian nuclear sub that's heading to the United States. And he's making huge extrapolations.

Like his aha moment is, oh my God, it's the one year anniversary of his wife's death. And they're like, fuck you. You jump to this shit, my man. And then yes, that like nervy like Jack Ryan energy of him being like, no, you don't understand, listen to me. And like doing all his Alec Baldwin business is more a reason they wouldn't trust him. Yes, that like nervy like Jack Ryan energy of him being like, no, you don't understand. Listen to me. And like doing all his Alec Baldwin business is more a reason they wouldn't trust him because as an actor, he's overselling it.

That's why one of the best scenes of the film is him with Fred Thompson and the other guy Fred Thompson, who should have won all four acting categories. I want everything except for the presidential nomination, which he never did win. No, that's created a new Oscar category for most buttery accent in a film. I got his fucking cigarette work in this movie I wanted to hand me a hot chicken sandwich. This is like so good This is my body dysmorphia is I watched this movie his first scene I cook God That's exactly how I want to look. This is the energy I want to have in rooms. I want to sit back. I want to look like smokey the bear without hair.

And a whole cigarette up like, this isn't good, I live in my hair. Look, Fred Thompson is an awesome actor. I mean, he could do like one thing, which is this, but he's always did it well. When he was in law and order, so he's after, so it was, who was it? Like he's the third DA maybe.

Okay. It's like Diane Weese comes in for a couple of years to replace Steven Hill and she's like, he's the third DA maybe. Okay. It's like Diane Weese comes in for a couple of years to replace Stephen Hill. Yeah. She's good, but you know, Diane Weese, she's sort of an A player. She moves on. He comes into the idea it's the Bush here and he's more conservative. He had juice on that. Oh, yeah.

The ban of juice. And then he decides to leave low in order to run for president, like a fucking moron. No one. Classic rookie move. But when he's talking to Jack Ryan with the other guy, I forget who the other guy is, but the guy who doesn't like Jack Ryan. Just some guy.

And then Jack Ryan leaves and the other guy is like, that guy sucks. Like he's so annoying. Like, you know, he thinks he knows everything. And Fred Thompson reads him to kind of like, look, served in the Marines, like injured, like learn to walk again. Basically like this guy is tougher than you think. Yeah.

You're just all in on Jack Ryan after that, right? Yeah, yeah. 100% Fred Thompson. The endorsement. Just to clarify, I don't wish I looked like Fred Thompson when I'm like on dates or at the supermarket. Maybe you do. But I look at this movie and I'm like, I wish I could do that as an actor.

And 50% of that is just rolling in with that look, with like that look and that voice and just being like, I'm the guy behind the desk. To be clear, he was an actual politician, right? Yeah. And he, he, he, um, I believe he was White House counsel or he was not, he was, um, my, he was the Republican counsel. He served in the Senate. Well, he was in the Senate, uh was in the Senate in the 90s.

So after this movie, it's a weird career. He's like a Republican lawyer who works, he's part of the Watergate Committee, which is like what he's most famous for. Becomes a lobbyist. Somebody is like, you really could fucking just slot into some admiral role in my movie. He does that for like 10 years and then someone's like, he was gonna have senator vibes. He wouldn't just be one.

Let's go all the way back there. No way out. No way out. That's right. Horny ass movie. Yeah, very horny movie. Very kind of strikingly, like illegally. Jesus.

Kevin. A movie so horny that they made it today, they'd throw you in jail. They would throw you in jail Don't fucking look at get home. Let's run though. Okay. No way out 87 88 feds 89 fat man and little boy Then 1993 movies he does hunt for red October days of thunder die hard to 1991 he's in five movies like the man's just gaining steam. Right. Because if you watch him do this for one scene, you're like, well, yeah, let's buy that and put it in our movie. And then he becomes a Tennessee senator. He's a fairly mediocre senator from all like,

it's far as I know. He's just like a standard generic Republican guy. Retires, goes back to be on law and order. And then some idiot is like, you should run for president. Yeah. Well, it was, but it's interesting about the presidential, I was trying to find out what they're articulating this on social media. Oh wait, it's the one that McCain went. Right. Right.

So it's 08. And so Bush, you know, Bush, it's in the Bush's term, but there's still a thought that sort of like maybe the secret sauce to winning a national election was like kind of being a folksy sub-unner, right? It's like you got Bill Clinton. I mean, basically for 20 years, it's like Bill Clinton, Al Gore, who almost became president, and then Bush, so you got these folksy sub-unners. And just like, well, both Republicans and Democrats, like, well, maybe you should just like put up a folksy sub-un seven or so Democrats had John Edwards from North Carolina I folksy and a straight shooter. Thank a straight shooter. Yeah, I not not at all a scumbag

And then which I say that in my voted form. Um, really, you know, I was an Edwards guy in a way He had that populist energy Yeah, I was the moment. I was the moment. I was the Obama kid. I was. I mean, I was, I was one of those delusional Obama kids. They're not going to like the. I was like the plucky 22 year old or whatever. The Edwards thing fell apart. Hart and I do think part of it was the calculation of like, quote, is this more realistic to get behind this guy? But he had Clintony vibes.

To America's man. I ended up on his- I don't know why, what triggered this, but I ended up on his Wikipedia for like an hour the other night. Johnny Edwards? Yeah, where I was like, I want to relive this spiral. I mean, remember, of course,

he'd been the vice presidential nominee and people thought that meant he might be the- Yeah, yeah. The Hander-bearer. Handsome, great on the stump. Yes, great on the stump. Yes, great on the stump. Like, you understand it's what you're getting at with Fred Thompson, where you're like,

this guy is fucking incredible on television. And Fred Thompson was the test of that. We're like, let's get a folksy guy. How about we get the guy who both has political history and also plays this type of guy in movies? And when he does it, everyone loves that. Literally an actor. But the other guy who fit this type

was Virginia Senator George Allen, who was widely thought to be kind of like the heir apparent or one of the heirs of Patrick Bush. I forgot ever existed. Remember that word he said? I may have mentioned this on the show. The guy, the kid who said that too lived in my dorm in college.

Wow. Because he was of course a Virginia politician. Yeah. So it was like a type. It was like a type of thing. We can get a folksy. He called the dude monkey. Yes. I mean, it's like Portuguese.

Right. It's so weird. Somehow it would have been less racist had he just been like, you're a monkey. It would have at least been like, the problem was it was days of people being like, what did he say and what on earth did he mean by it? Even he had to be like, I don't know, man.

I don't know, it just came out of my mouth. Like, I don't know what to tell you. He said it took more effort and then took more litigation on the part of everyone else to figure out what it was. But there's this thing with like racism, right? Where... Which I, by the way, I don't like. Yeah, I bet. I just want to say this on the record.

It's not great. I'm a racer, I'm still a racer. Yeah, I'm a noted opponent. But sometimes, maybe this just means like a southerner or something to grow up in the south. There's like ordinary casual racism, which isn't great, but it's also like quite thoughtless and like non-ideological and just sort of like, okay, you're kind of just an asshole. You're repeating stuff, but then there's things people say that like indicate like a kind of deeper like the nerve.

I've read some book with skull measurement senator. Right. And you're like, what the hell is going on? It's like a measure of craft. Like you're really honing what you want to say and how to say it. It matched with the George Allen thing was sort of like, you're not just calling him a slur,

but it's a slur to foreign language. It's like, it came very naturally to you. It's kind of singer, not the song races. Yeah. It's like, this is really weird that this that's the word that came to mind for you. I completely remember. And then of course he loses reelection and does not run for president. Jim Webb, another normal guy, totally normal.

Another kind of folksy southerner, less folksy, more sort of like hardened, but... He's kind of a Tom Clancy guy. Yeah. Like, I know he was a Democrat, but he was sort of like a marginal Democrat and he was right, you know, served in the military and the last straight shooter. I'll say on this note is that what's interesting about this affect from Southern politicians is I think it does like reflect much longer than the rest of the country. The South still had this sort of like barn burner tradition of like campaigning.

And so there's just, okay, there's a style of campaigning that was still kind of like campaigning. And so there's just, there's a style of campaigning that was still kind of like in circulation in the South, really up until like the 80s and 90s, that doesn't exist anymore. And the guys who try it now sound like idiots because it's clearly an affectation, John Kennedy and Louisiana tries to do the thing, but like, you're like, oh, you went to Oxford, you were no one's buying this.

Right. Well, like to build the bridge back to red October, the thing that's so fascinating about Fred Thompson as an actor is that he is so weirdly internalized. Yeah. And such as in this movie, but even like the broader action thriller movies he was doing. What was fascinating about him is he's a real like makes the audience come to him actor for a guy who can get up there and fucking stump and like play to the cheats. But his face is not red. He's not like, he's just trees like.

And as you said, it's like the turning point of the movie is him just with so, with such ease, offhandedly being like, no, Jack Ryan knows what he's talking about. You know, like he can't even be bothered to get wild up to make the case. This is a movie where Sean Connery plays a Russian sea captain. Yes. And yet I don't think anyone in the movie is over the top.

No. Yeah. Like that's surprising. Yes. And it's a movie with actors like Tim Curry, Alec Baldwin, people who can go over the top. Like it's like, it's not like they don't have it in them. And it's directed by MacTurne and coming off of Predator and Die Hard, both of which are much more kinetic movies. Yes.

That are crazier and louder than this movie. Before I saw this film, just seeing the VHS box, right? Okay, this is Tom Clancy movie, it's Baldwin and Connery, that's what I know. And at some later point, I read the entire supporting cast list. And I remember having the thought as like a teenager of like, how could all of these performers be in one movie? Right and not be clashing up against each other You cannot put that group of people even if they're not sharing scenes

Tim Curry cannot coexist with James Earl Jones with Connery as a submarine captain whatever as you said like Everyone is doing Not just the sort of more was the most reserved version of what they could do but one that is totally in sync with the movie and the other performers like he's cast everyone very strategically for what their innate quality is but pitched them all perfectly at the exact same level. Cordy B. Vance I think is a great example of exactly this. Someone who is doing the most down tempo version of the thing that he does, but that is still distinctively him,

and fits completely well with it. Like, of course, the open, when we meet him for the first time, you say, you know, it was not Paola Gucci, it was like, that's exactly what that guy would be like. Yes. And it's entirely believable. And it's dynamic in like guy would be like. Yes. And it's entirely believable. And it's dynamic in like, you're like,

oh, who's this actor? Right? Like who's this guy? Yeah. But you're right Griffin. It's never too much, but it's always precisely what that actor can do very well. Yes.

Yeah. And you're the only guy who's doing too much as we've discussed is Baldwin, which is appropriate. Yeah. Yeah. And he could even he could do more. He's not like Glenn Gary. No, no, no, like he's not like he could he could go crazier.

Can we do a little Baldwin sidebar? Because I was really thinking on this while watching. I just talked about him a lot in this era, just in that we've done Beatle juice and married to the mob. And is that it? Maybe a third one. I think there's a lot in this era just in that we've done Beetlejuice and married to the mob and Is that it maybe a third one? I think there's a third one. I'm forgetting David This is the exact point I wanted to make yeah, you recently on a Prince of Tides episode Hmm introduce the concept of the blank check Hall of Fame Which we're still kind of defining in real time. We're talking about an old team that you're talking about an old team

You're talking about like people we have covered. Weird amount. A weird amount in wildly different roles with different directors where you're like, man, if you just take our Nick and ulti arc and you put fucking a Hulk and Prince of Tides and Lorenzo's oil and I'll do anything, that's a weird assemblage of roles, right?

Baldwin is one of those guys you could almost argue we should put in that tier, except Baldwin so weirdly, for a guy who doesn't disappear into roles, is always Alec Baldwin. When I try to zoom out and think about his career, I'm like, that's eight different guys. The eras of Baldwin are so bizarre and distinct,

and that's even if we remove like Baldwin the man from it, which is its own additional like 10 eras of Extreme drama and highs and lows. Yeah, just looking at him as an actor It is hard to be like even within just a five-year span Beal juice guy married to the mob guy right October guy same guy let alone that you get to 25 years later He's the same guy who's in the two mission and possibles. He sure is. You made a terrible choice, and I can actually just get to his line from thought.

It is interesting to look at his career, which he follows this up with Miami Blues, does some supporting stuff in like Alice, Glenn Gary, obviously he pops like crazy in that and you're like, man, this guy hasn't made. And then it's like malice, the getaway, the shadow, the juror, heaven's prisoners. It's this like, it just runs into a wall. He does a run of the exact thing he said he was avoiding up until this movie.

The types of movies that would offer me the leading role are the third tier projects. Which is a web-those all-hour. The supporting guy. But after he's done this, he's like, I guess I got to be the guy at the center of the poster. Like to the point that when he is in the cooler, it truly is like, oh, shit, Alec Baldwin, like he can act.

I forgot about that. And that was like total presence. He breathes to an Oscar nomination. He did. I think if we watch that today, we'd be like, this is like the fourth best performance he gives in any year. Yeah, you're just like, oh, he's just like doing

Jack Donaghy basically, but it's like, yeah, but that was exciting. That was coming off an era where he had like five, six years of being a terrible leading man and then started to like bulk up. And then he's doing like Thomas the Tank Engine. Well, this is what I was saying. And then he's just like taking Jack.

But it's also- He's doing a voice in Final Fantasy, the spirits within. Oh, this is what I was saying. And then he's just like taken jet. But it's also... He's doing a voice in Final Fantasy, The Spirits Within. Oh, for sure is. And I just remember my dad being like, why is Alec Baldwin hosting SNL again? And I was like, he's weirdly good at this. My dad was like, but who cares about him as a movie star anymore? And then he would pop up as like the boss in one scene of a comedy.

And he'd be like, fuck, he's good at this. There's that period where he doesn't totally want to own just being a comedy actor. A husky comedy. But it was the only thing that he was ever like popping it. And then Cooler was the one time in that run where it was like, he knows his new body. He's bringing the energy from the comedies to a drama. I've also just been I was right to 30 Rock. I've been rewatching 30 Rock the last couple of weeks.

It's an incredible performance. Yes. And it's just watching this in the middle of a 30 Rock run is wild to put in perspective. It's like two different, it's like effectively two different people. Yes. The scene where he does Cosby and then a bunch of other offensive stereotypes in trying to counsel Tracy Jordan and then Tracy Jordan's like, do like my second grade teacher.

And then he does like a sort of like, will you know, like does that? And Tracy Jordan's like, hey, we don't need to resort to stereotype. You couldn't do it today or whatever. It's not an episode. Very funny. I love, but the 100th episode with the gas leak

where it becomes a sort of hallucinatory clip show. But the whole underlying part of it is they need to put on their 100th episode. The Cable Town guy maybe wants to cancel the show. I swear all of this is relevant. And they're trying to get Tracy back on the show or else the show will get canceled. And it's after he's won an Oscar

and has gotten too legitimate and hates that he's now seen as a pillar of like society and wants to lower his reputation again. And he's like complaining to Jack Donaghan at a rooftop at the end of this episode. Like, how do I get people to stop taking me seriously? I've tried everything. I go on the talk shows, I say the offensive thing, I do something bad in public, it all seems to go my way. And Baldwin gives this monologue where he's like, it's easy, go on television. And he's like, what? And he's like, the way to go my way. And Baldwin gives this monologue where he's like, it's easy, go on television. And he's like, what? And he's like, the way to lower yourself back to television

is to be on television. Television delegitimizes anyone. And then gives a speech where he's like, even if you were a star, and then Donagie relays Baldwin's career arc with full intensity, and he like puts extra like fucking mustard on it. Yeah.

When he's outlining the like hunt for red October part of it. And in that moment you're like, right, I have to accept this has all been the same. It's same guy and it's like that was his moment to vault the ladder. Yeah. And he didn't really do it. And then it was just this long decline. Yeah. Now he's in a different phase of his life.

I can't even think of what the joke is to make of this. But I just think we all I think the narrative became so much he failed. They gave him the shot to be Jack Ryan and they replaced him with a bigger movie star. He wasn't up to par, right? And then the stories become conflicting while he was already committed to do streetcar named Desire on Broadway. I dropped out of my own volition. And then it was like, no, they kind of went behind his back and they just got wiggled out of the contract.

The true story now seems to be Harrison Ford saw Humphredd at Covern was like, I do want to do that. Calls them and is like, I will play Jack Ryan. And they're like, great, cool. Alec Baldwin can go into a garbage can for all we care if Harrison, I will play Jack Ryan. And they're like, great, cool. Alec Baldwin can go into a garbage can for all we care if Harrison Ford wants to play Jack Ryan. And that's what they do.

Yes. And they screw him out. And yes, they have to cover story of like, oh, well he was committed to do a play. I'm like, I think you could have worked around him doing a play. Yeah. Fuck, give me one second to find this quote

because it's in the dossier. About this? This is for Baldwin, okay? It's to your exact point. The currency quote. He says, for newcomers, the train pulls out at 12.01. You're on it or you're not. The greatest plateau in Hollywood

is when they hold the train for you. I think that's exactly what you're saying, where he was committed to do this play. Ford expressed interest and they were like, oh no, if we're gonna film, we have to film at the time of the play. Harrison Ford is available though. So we'll see you later.

We can't wait for you. Oh no. Yeah. Cause like Harrison Ford in Air Force One might as well be Jack Ryan. That's a more action-packed movie. Yes. But it might as well just be what if Jack Ryan

became president and then some terrorists hijacked his plane. Yeah. I mean, for all I know that does happen in a Jack Ryan novel. There's a lot of them. I'm not in charge of this. Can we talk about the fucking the Russian choice and the translation moment, which is just one of the most audacious things. I love it.

The movie does. I love it. It does so simply and you're like every white, why do you know what our film's pulled us off this well? For five minutes. Yes. And then you zoom in on, is it Peter Firth's mouth, one of their mouths? Yes. When they say the word Armageddon. Which is the same in both languages.

And then when we zoom out, everyone's speaking English. I think not to be personicity, I think it's not even a zoom, it's like a dolly in. Right. Yeah. But it's without cuts. It's a classic McTiernan thing of like, you're in this conversation, the camera slowly starts to track in on this guy's mouth. And there's a lot of guys going mouth. He gets to the word. Why is there so much emphasis on this? And then after Armageddon, he's speaking in English and the camera slowly pulls back. And it's like, you've shifted reality of this scene.

You've entered their brains or whatever, which makes the then twist of them speaking Russian at the end of the movie hit hard. Yes. Where you're like, right. I mean, it's like the unspoken thing of all Star Trek where it's like, they're actually all speaking their own languages and there's just a computer making everyone sound the same. But it's what I was saying in the Die Hard episode about like the degree to which so much of McTiernan's technique is like magic tricks. Yeah. Where it's like he's making it feel like a twist at the end of the movie.

The reveal that, oh yes, they are Russian. They were Russian all along. A thing you know, and that we've all just been in agreement to accept the reality of hearing them in English. Now, the plot of the film seems more complicated than it is, because it really is just like, the sub is going in one direction, and everyone in America is arguing about where it is and what it wants to do.

Is this an offensive attack? And finally, in the middle of the movie, Jack Ryan convinces someone, like, I know what he wants to do. Is this an offensive attack? And finally, in the middle of the movie, Jack Ryan convinces someone like, I know what he wants to do. He wants it to affect get me onto the sub that is near him. And we are gonna figure this out. And that is when the film shifts more from boardroom talk to like, underwater tactics of like,

let's send him a signal. Let's say like, hey, we think you know what we know what you're doing, just let us know if we're right and That's when Connery's character then has to basically Get his crew off of the boat. Yes, so that he can Defect and also the latter stage of his plan to call out that the USS Dallas is basically in between those two points They're the Dallas is the right is the boat that's near the red October that's right. Yeah. Trying to figure it out. That's Scotland, Courtney B. Vance, fucking Ned Vaughn, who's one of those guys who's in everything. He's the sort of red hair guy.

Yes. The guy's in everything. But it is a lot of, you know, chat and conversation and subtle diplomacy, I guess, right? Like, yeah, what are some other scenes you guys want to mention? I don't know. We talked about this a lot, obviously, with Dead Reckoning that I called out months before we were actually doing this series that I felt like McQuarrie was really kind of doing a McTiernan style in the dialogue scenes of that movie, right? Sure

And it opens up with a submarine scene. So it's like a pretty Easy comparison point, right? But I was like there's something to the way that in these long dialogue scenes where people in boardrooms have to like dump a bunch of Exposition he is shooting this like it's an action movie and not in the way Michael Bay does where he's adding a ton of flash Camera is gone right where it's truly just style poured on top of it And then one of the Empire Macquarie interview episodes recently He said this thing about like why he jumps the line and some of the dialogue scenes and dead reckoning and what the intent was of his camera movement and

cutting between shots where the camera was moving in opposite directions. And he said this thing that I have to imagine was McTiernan's strategy here, especially knowing the way he talked about how he studied shot lengths and movements for diehard and everything, which is McQuarrie's like, I basically find that if you have characters dumping a bunch of exposition, every 10 seconds seconds the audience will check out and They'll think they're listening and paying attention But they're not yeah, and you have to do things Cinematically to wake them up and so if you like jump the line You're slapping on the face if you tilt the camera if you have an aggressive camera move

The trick is to make those things feel kind of motivated and organic and not just like flashy for flash sake. Right. But it does feel like this whole movie is incredibly talky and McTiernan is using every trick in the book to make every sentence feel important so that it lands with the impact of like a punch, right? Sure. Absolutely. That's my big thesis.

I agree. The American stuff is calmer though, like there is more chit chat there. Yeah. Like when Courtney Bivance is like, I think I'm hearing something. Like I thought I heard singing. No, it is. Is camera movement in this captain isn't like quiet petty officer. Like, you know, like he's like, all right. But this is my point. He wants the performances to be quiet. So he's doing all of that through editing and camera movement. Yeah. And this, like the camera fucking never stops moving in this movie. Yes. The camera moves a lot.

We should shout out to Jack Ryan. Obviously, I do love him because he's afraid of flying. Yeah. Like me. He overcomes his fear of flying obviously at the end of the movie. And be a little bit of an inspiration to you. Yeah. Maybe it should be, but I hear Jack Ryan's doing a lot of live shows these

days in other cities. The reason I'm playing the music box here is because I have a kid now because I'm afraid crying, I'm doing a lot of live shows these days in other cities. The reason I want to play the music box here in Chicago. I have a kid, not because I'm afraid of flying. What's the big daring sequence in the middle of the movie is him getting on the sub? With the static. Which seems hard. Yeah, I wouldn't do it. This seems like a huge pain in the ass.

My choice would be to not even try. And the sub is like, we gotta go up now? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it seems like they, the people on the sub themselves are like, why are you doing this? Right, like we already had him basically. Like you distracted us by making us come pick you up.

But then once he's there, I mean, so like his big, Jack Ryan's big gambit is that he guesses he's going to turn starboard. Uh-huh. Right, and when he does correctlyit is that he guesses he's going to turn starboard, right? And when he does correctly guesses that, Scott Glenn is impressed. And he later reveals he just guessed. It was going to be one or the other.

And he had to win him over. That's like this sort of essence of Jack Ryan, I guess beyond just like he reads a lot of it. He's like, he has a little bit of maverick in him. A little mad. He'll do these like, right. He'll do these kind of like out on a limb things that kind of, you know, distinguish him, right?

Yes. Okay. Ben was calling out how this felt like a perfect watch for rainy January. When we're recording this muggy, foggy, gross January. Kind of unseasonably warm, but it's a very much a wet rainy day. Yes. Um, and so I woke up and started watching this at like 10 o'clock. And it was just like truly like perfect.

Yep. I want to call out. Not a cool film takes place on the on the seas, right? A lot of it is it's a damp flick. I wouldn't say it was on the seas. It's in under in under the seas. It's in, under, under the seas. Oh yeah. Yeah.

The score for this movie was done by a Huck Rastatian band. It was done by Sebastian, that's right. It was actually done by Basil Pollardors. Who's the fucking best? I mean, the score for this movie is amazing. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Who's better than Russians at singing in unison? They're the best.

Boys to man? They were pretty good. Yeah. This movie was shot by Yandaban. Yeah. Is this the final Mcturin and Dabon collaboration? I would assume so because I don't think Yandaban shot Medicine Man. No, and then Dabon's making his own things. Yeah. I mean, after this, Yandaban goes on to shoot

Lethal Weapon 3 in basic instinct, heard of it. Yep. And then obviously makes speed in 1994. Uh, this movie looks incredible. Yes. It is so fucking dark in a way that is like audacious. Yep. And Dabont said that his big thing was that he like didn't want to fake what the

lighting would be in a submarine and had them build it to how it would be, which is real submarines do this thing of having the different colored lights at different times so people can starve off madness. Right, they feel like there's changes in the day. The like the red, blue, white thing is a you need to differentiate between times of day and demarcate the days and the cycles or else people go insane. My guess is it's gotten more complex now. I assume like submarines now are even more attuned to this sort of

stuff. But he was like, build it the way it would be and I'll figure out how to shoot around that. I don't want to like sneak and hide other lights in. And he basically was like to this point of like ways to keep the audience's attention. He was like, if you have less light on a movie star's face, the audience pays more attention to what they're saying. Sure.

If their face is fully lit in a classical movie star way, the audience pays more attention to what they're saying sure if their face is fully lit in a classical movie star way The audience pays attention to how they're saying it and this is not a movie of like clever line readings No, it's a movie of you need to understand the points of what they're articulating So he was like the most effective thing you can do is put half of Sean Connery's face in shadow And if it's harder to see Sean Connery, they pay more attention to the actual meat of what he's saying. When you see Skalyn Skarsgard in this film, who you only glimpse briefly. I'd say you barely see him.

Who is, of course, the sort of Soviet sub-captain who's been sent to destroy Connery. It literally looks like he's just like in hell. Like it's just red. And he's like he's the only half his face Yeah, it's the perfect choice. Like he's just this like demon Chasing them and you don't even get the sense that he's a bad guy. He's just following orders probably right? Yeah, he's not like maniacal or anything, but he's so scary But it's also this mcteanon thing we keep coming back to which is like the guy was so fucking good with ensemble casts

dealing with like many many characters and Casting them so well where it's just like people with very different faces and different vibes so that you're not getting them confused Right. This is a movie where so many versions of this The 15 supporting guys are all indistinguishable from one another. And for a movie that visually does not display their faces very clearly, you are very capable of keeping track of who's who and what's what. Yeah. So, you know, Jack Ryan gets on the ship. He signals to them, Ramius is sort of surprised to realize that they've guessed his plan, I guess.

Because of a plucky Jack Ryan, of course. And they basically accept the offer by via Morse code pings. I mean, like that is right. Like everything beyond that is just him, him wrapping it up. The whole fake emergency, the surfacing of the sub, leaving everybody in the emergency vessels. And it should go off without a scratch,

except for the fucking chef turns out to be a, you know, KGB agent or GRU or something. GRU, yes, that is the, whatever, that era is KGB. And that's the one action sequence in the movie, is chasing him through the sub with guns. Like that's about it. It's like barely one action sequence in the movie is chasing him through the sub with guns like that's about it It's like barely an action sequence like you get the initial gunfire Sam Niels character gets killed gets the best line in the movie I would have liked to have seen Montana incredible. It's very sad He's gonna have a he's gonna have a round wife who cat is him rabbits and cooks them that earlier seen where like fantasy of American life

Niels the one guy Looping in on everything he's thinking and there's that scene where Neil just so perfectly plays this incredibly Stoic emotionally closed off man trying to describe his dream life in America that is just kind of like complacency it is just like Benality American banality seems like the most exciting thing in the world to him. Pick-up truck, round wife, rabbit. I mean, the thing that always strikes me about that scene too is like, you know, I don't think we need a pass to leave this thing. That fucking thing. You can just drive from straight to state and you don't need a pass and you don't need approval. Yeah. It's very touching. It's very, it's like, it's in a movie, like as I've been saying,

that is very sympathetic to the Russian sailors. It is maybe sort of like the most quietly sort of like, this is what makes America great. It's an orally scene. It's like 15, 20 minutes in before we've really built. It's early in the film. Jack Ryan out. I mean, that's the other funny thing about this being the movie that like,

all the hopes are pinned on this being Baldwin's Transformative a list leading man moment. They talk about when they were adapting the book There's like a run of a hundred and fifty straight pages that Jack Ryan is not in right that He goes into his corridors and whatever even in its current form where they were trying to and whatever, even in its current form where they were trying to pre-connery construct the movie with more of an emphasis on Jack Ryan, it is moving between the three camps as we're saying, primarily, right? Like the Dallas, whoever Ryan's talking to, and why am I forgetting the name of the Russian submarine right now? The Red October, Jesus. Fucking Christ. Relax. Not to mention like the back room conversations

after Jack Ryan's like your Fred Thompson scenes or whatever, it is a movie that will go like 10 plus minutes without seeing your leading man, which is what's cool about it is that it's so much more ensemble-y than you would imagine it to be. Yes. But it does make you feel like if Kevin Kevin Costner would in, were in this, would he pop harder or would the movie just morph itself

more around making him more traditionally heroic? It seems like if Kevin Costner in this movie, it would just become a Kevin Costner movie. Like you'd lose the moment with Sam Neill. Like you'd lose some of this stuff that builds out through the characters and kind of builds out the stakes characters and gonna build up the stakes a bit more for everyone.

The greater good of the film. Right, yeah. There's, by co-host John Gans has a fun theory about this movie, because we watched this movie and then I think the same year he watched Under Siege. Probably. Similar time. Both both movies, obviously.

Yeah, both both movies. And he hates Steven Seagal, but this is, that's Yeah, both both movies. And he hates Stephen Segel, but this is that's sort of besides the point for this, this anecdote. He hates his art, but likes him as a person. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Weird, weirdly, actually. Yeah, loves his personal life and his political beliefs. But the thing about under siege is in under siege, you have the terrorist take over the ship and Stephen Segel is like this singular person who was able to save

the ship and although others worked with him at the end, it's sort of like celebration of the individual. But I think one of the compelling things about Rodd October is it's really none of that, right? Like Jack Ryan does know what's going down, but he is not able to accomplish anything without the assistance of other people. Yes. All the resolution of the problems that are confronted are done collectively. Yes.

It's true. The most impressive thing Jack Ryan does is shoot the cook, but that's just gets him, when he's gone and he pulls the trigger, but like that's it. There's not, you know, this is all for one, one for all kind of stuff. The big moment is Scott Glenn dipping the sub so that the torpedo hits

Skarsgard instead of them. I mean, this running thread across like doing a whole mini series on McTiernan. Oh, it fucking rules. Oh, and then the guy's like, you, you arrogant fool, you've killed us. Uh, this running thread of like McTiernan's clear distaste for other action movies, right? Sure.

That all these movies he makes are almost in opposition to be like, no, this is how you should be doing it. This is the responsible way of making this or the intelligent way of making this. It is fascinating how often his movies kind of avoid the like lone man tropes of storytelling.

And even Die Hard, which looks like that on its face, isn't really like it is so much about, well, it's one guy in a building, one good cop who gets it right. But also it's like, no, it's the collaboration with everyone else. He's isolated, but it is also still about partnership. And like Predator is a movie where a guy loses his team and it it seemingly like dies inside You know yeah He goes crazy right that even though he's a guy who makes these like star vehicles that are about like these iconic action heroes Casting like the biggest leading men. They're always very like about a collective and people's like exchanges with each other

always very like about a collective and people's like exchanges with each other. Should I see below? It's a sub movie I've never seen. I'm trying to think of like sub movies I haven't seen below. The David Toei one? Yeah. I've ever seen. I think it's not Galifianakis. Isn't that what he sure is?

No, it's a good one. A recent one, the Wolf's Call. I need to see that one. It's a French one. I've heard that's good and I want to check it out. It's a lot of fun. I believe it's on Netflix. You know what's a good one, a recent one, the Wolf's Call. I need to see that one. It's a French one. I've heard that's good and I want to check it out. It's a lot of fun. I believe it's on Netflix. You know what's surprisingly good?

We were talking about Gerard Butler earlier, a Hunter Killer. I'm just gonna watch in these. Yes. So when that came out, it was like Gerard Butler and Gary Oldman in a sub movie. I was like, well, that sounds good. It had also been on a shelf for like 12 years.

But it also, is it a Red Box movie movie because like those guys can go either way. It was a relativity media release that stayed on ice for like five years after the company went bankrupt. Like there's no way it's not at least pretty fun to watch those guys growl like dive dive. Jamel's never been wrong about anything in his life and he just pulled us into it. I've been wrong about plenty. I'm mostly gonna have to watch the undisputed Straight To Video sequels. But Hunter Killer is, it's like a totally fine,

you know, TNT on a Sunday kind of movie. I guess that thing, Gerard's the only guy who makes that kind of movie anymore. I mean, you what? I'm supposed to go watch Sundance Premieres on my, you know, TV. No, I'm going to watch Hunter Killer from five years ago. Hunter Killer,

Plain, Kandahar. One of those movies where half the credits on Wikipedia don't even have pages. Linda Cardellini, the heart of Green Book is in it. Common, Michael Mifes. Well, the submarine runs on her energy. Of course. She's spinning around in a centrifuge.

She's the heart of the submarine. She's the heart of the submarine. She's the heart of the submarine. Yeah. Um, film ends with, uh, them, yeah, this sort of like, this exciting torpedo sequence, but very what feels like it's trying to be accurate. It's really just a lot of like go 30 degrees this way. Yeah. Like rather than like crazy countermeasures and like visuals of torpedoes exploding and all that.

The one big visual is Scars Guard's submarine exploding, which is cool. Yes. But then after that, it's like, great, let's go to Maine, have one conversation, and then Jack Ryan can bring a teddy bear home to his daughter and sleep on a plane. But also, as we said, like this is a movie that has expensive special effects special effects that were hard to achieve And even still the goal is like make it look realistic. It would be dark down there and hard to see what it is Yeah, I mean this film was not nominated for its special effects at the one for sound effect editing Got nominated for editing and sound. Yeah, yes Um, but obviously this is the year of like total recall, uh-huh, which has like insane special effects

Yep, you know like that are like next level No, you know that's the thing about this movie is like it it has Expensive complicated special effects that are pretty unshowy and quiet. Yeah, it costs 35 million dollars That's a good budget It's an insane one and I think a lot of it went to Connery and a lot more went to building the sets. Like I think the sets are really like expensive and it made, you know, there was this fear when it came out of like, is this, like, is this old hat like the Berlin Wall has fallen? Uh, no. I mean,

it was a recent history. It was a big hit. Thank you Griffin. $120 million. I'm just gonna say two words there. A big hit. Thank you, Griffin. $120 million. Two words. I'm just going to say two words there. A big hit. Should we play the box office game or is there anything else we need to discuss? Jamal, anything else? October. I don't think there's, I don't, I don't have anything else.

It's a great movie. Yeah. What else does, what else does it say? You should check it out. It's a great film and it opened number one on March 2, 1990. Griffin. So like the time the Oscars of the previous year are happening, that's the other reason it's less of a, you know, prestige. That's true.

It's coming out a year before. Right. They didn't even put in a summer blockbuster slot, but it was one of the highest grossing films of 1990. So it opens to $17 million and number two is the film that is about to win best picture with the Oscars. From 89, which is dances with walls? No. No, that's this year.

That's going to win any year for us. Rayman? Nope. That's 88? Yep. Fuck. 89. It's not Oscars finest hour.

I'll put it that way. Okay. And it's not, oh, it's... A sense of a woman. It's driving mistakes. It's driving mistakes. A huge, well, a huge is actually too strong, but a very big hit considering it's not, oh, it's a sense of a woman. It's driving mistakes. It's driving mistakes. Driving mistakes, no. A huge, well, a huge is actually too strong, but a very big hit considering it's about a, you know,

guy driving an old lady around made $106 million. Look, the title didn't lie. That is what the movie's about. It is still so insane to me that driving Miss Daisy, when's the Oscar, sort of like the opposite of do the right thing. Yes. Like just the same year. Total ideological opposite. And then what, like 30 years later? Let's do this again.

Black plans. I mean, they just listen to the classic match up. Let's do this once again. It's a car. It's another. But this time, this time, this time, Miss Daisy is the black man. Right. And they're like, well, we got to get this in the driver. I've already done a green book joke on this podcast. I won't do it again, but the driver is a spicy Italian man. This is very spicy. It was radical. People understand how radical that movie was. This is the best black ticket I've ever had.

Hey, hey. You know, it's funny. I don't know if you guys have been on TikTok, but that movie, I think on TikTok, it's people will like will chop up movies and like post them in like five minutes. Is green book big on TikTok? It is weirdly big on TikTok, but that movie, I think on TikTok, it's people will like, will chop up movies and like post them in like five, you know, five minute things. Is Green Book big on TikTok? It is weirdly big on TikTok.

And you'll go into the comments, people are like, man, this is a great movie. This is a great movie. Just wonderful messages, this movie. Were we talking about this with YxDavid? But just like how weirdly big Green Book was in China. We were talking about. And France, well, you know what?

Where you're like, you expect we import that we, we export that over to other countries and they're like, you gave this ship best picture and other countries liked it more than we did. Have you ever seen a French comedy? I have. They have green book vibes. They do. Right. The joke is their number one genre is green book. Yes. Virtuoso. It's Italian for pretty good. That's that's the that's the line I was trying to remember. I'm so glad you dug it up. Number three, the box office.

Speaking of this actor, it is an action film starring Stephen Segal. Hard to kill. Nailed it. Nailed it. Which is what? His third. Yeah. Because his first one is above the law.

It's above the law. Alpha justice, hard to kill titles. And they really are all kind of. So good. Yeah. Steven Segel is above the law. Steven Segel is marked for death. What's smart about the titles? And then they're all set up the dot, dot, dot, then the title. They tell you about the man. Yeah.

In 92, he gets under siege and it's sort of like, oh, he's like a little more he leveled up a cop who beats people up in this one. And under siege was a huge hit. It was a huge hit. It's a good. It's a good. Good. I mean, it's stupid, but it's a good movie.

Yeah. It's not. What? No, no, no, no. You haven't even seen it. He said that about under siege. None of us. See, oh, you did finally see it.

Okay. Good for you. I famously, I loved under siege two. never saw one until probably like two years ago. Under siege two is a lot of fun. Yeah, do they're on a fucking train. They are in a train. They do go into dark. And then, and then so you get under siege. And then the next one that's released in Segal's career is on deadly ground.

Yes. Which is his magma. That's where you start to see some cracks in the facade for sure. I know we just did the March Madness and decided, but should we do a seagull? No, here's my here's my idea. We just we just yesterday settled both brackets for main feed and Patreon. My pitch is throw them both out.

Yep. Seagull on main feed, seagull on page. Okay. So number four is the box office. We just decree Griffin. It's both. Is a comedy. Yeah. Of the, you know, there's a lot of these kinds of movies. It's this guy's a sitcom star.

Okay. He's winning Emmys. He's a big deal on this TV show. Can he do a movie? It's not a dance, though. No. But it's an 80s sitcom star. Yeah, lesser than that.

But he was certainly a big deal. And I like him. And you know what? His female co-star is from Cheers. So it's a Shelley Long movie? No. Fuck. It's not a Kirstie Alley.

It is. But she's not the star of the star. I mean, she's the co-leader. Okay. So I've never seen this film. Huh. I don't think it was a big hit. Kirstie Alley and a different sitcom star.

Yes. Can you tell me which network the sitcom star was on? I can tell you that you watched a lot of this sitcom in recently. Is it a Leraket? John Leraket. It's a Leraket and Kirstie Alley? Correct.

Huh. There's the Leraket Bronson Pinchot movie, where one of them is like a psychic. That's not this movie. I know, I'm rever- I'm fucking process of elimination. I don't know what that movie is, but it's not this one. Second site is that movie.

Thank you. This movie is called- It's got a very generic name. Oh no. That's my guess. It's called Mad House. Okay. Very generic. There are a couple and it looks like they have some house guests who are crazy.

And the house gets angry at them? No, the house guests. They have house guests. Revampson's called Mad House. Is the house angry that they invited guests over to it? Possibly. It's like a sentient monster house type press. Don't think so.

I think they just have some wild house guests. Sounds like a missed opportunity. It does. Number five of the so. Okay. I think they just have some wild house Sounds like missed opportunity It does number five of the box office is probably the movie that people thought was gonna win best picture for a while and wins best director In born in the fourth of July in the drive Miss Daisy or it's born on the fourth of July. Yeah another big hit But you know serious very serious. It's a very serious movie I've never seen it actually. It's a good film. I mean, it's not amazing. It's pretty good. Have you seen it before?

Never seen it. No. Where do you stand on stone? Are you a stoner? You like to get stoned? I like to get stoned. I mean, yeah. I, so I love JFK. Yeah. I think it's an insane movie. Yeah, it's an old fashioned men's movie.

Old fashioned men's movie. I think JFK, I think it's an insane movie. Yeah, it's an old-fashioned men's movie I'll pass me. I think I think JFK I think to me to me JFK must be like what it feels like to go through a drug induced stupor Yeah, but I do love it. Do you like Nixon? I like Nixon a lot hell. Yeah, even better in my opinion That one two punch of JFK and Nixon I think are terrific But I'm otherwise quite lukewarm on all of her stone. He's kind of out of fashion at this point. I wonder if we'll ever do him. I like his later documentary work. I like just when he sits down and tries to redeem the souls of desperate.

Also got Men Don't Leave. Yeah. Just Galang, Arliss, Howard. Okay. I mentioned that movie on this podcast before. Revenge, the Kevin Costner film. Oh, sure. What is that about?

I don't know. Is that Tony Scott? Is it not? Let's find out. Is it a Tony Scott film? It is. Thank you. Yeah, with Anthony Quinn, Madeleine Stowe.

You know why I know that? Why? Because it's a classic weird Tarantinoism that he writes true romance and then here's Tony Scott's interested in Directing your script and he went the guy who did revenge It's like no he's a guy to top gun you fucking twerp But he always in interviews was like the reason I let Tony Scott do true answers cuz I liked revenge No, I should check out revenge. It's a Scott. I haven't seen yeah, and I should do it on Scott hasn't seen you should Glory is number eight another Oscar player of that year.

Steel Magnolia is another one. Feeling good, good film. And the vet midler comedy Stella. There's sort of a dramedy. I don't think that's how the title said, David. Stella. Thank you. Also starring John Goodman. I don't. I know nothing about that. She's a feisty woman working in a bar who is that a Stella Dallas Regnant pregnant am I wrong about that? Yes, it's a Stella Dallas remake. It's a weird Barbara Stanwick It's like only the lonely that era of them like remaking old Oscar-bate films as studio comedies knocked up And you know then she's a single mom and she meets a bar fly played by John Goodman.

Sounds pretty good. Trinio Verado. Yeah. Okay. But it's Herod October season, baby. Everyone loves it. Open 17. It's number one for a month until Pretty Woman knocks it off.

It makes 130 domestic. It makes 120 domestic, 200 worldwide. I mean, good numbers. Great numbers, had crazy multiplier. Yeah. You know, back to the day. So for McTurnan, this is about three in a row. Throughout?

Yes. So he just has to fuck it up. Yeah. And then the other thing is, right, this movie successfully launches a franchise that basically has no relation to this movie. Like James Earl Jones is the only carryover. The director doesn't return, the star doesn't return. Yes.

But like for McTurnan, it's like off of this he does medicine man yeah that doesn't do well but people can kind of sort of be like well it was a smaller movie and whatever yeah and really hurt anyone's feelings then he does last action hero right and that's the kind of noxious bomb he has to then retreat to do diehard with a vengeance is a sort of like reset remember what you all like about yes yeah I will be interested to hear what you guys think of a last action hero. That is a movie I like quite a bit.

I like it a lot. Spoilers for episode, good. But that episode is mostly us discussing how good is it? Like, is it great? Is it flawed? Like what works, what doesn't? It was very interesting episode. I can totally see why the reaction was what the reaction was.

Yeah. At the time it was cooking with weird new gas that people didn't understand. When I saw it when I was 15, like 10 years after it had come out and bombed, I was like, this is frustrating. And I should like this. And then I rewatched it and I was like, no, this is good. And it's interesting. And I wish we had this kind of, we were talking about this pre-record.

Yeah. This type of mess you mess. Yeah. Yeah. A personal mess, a mess with character. So that's it. Yeah, we're going to go to Medicine Man from here. We've recorded that episode.

Yeah. It's just with the doctor prescribed. Yes. No one raises their voice in that one either, right? Everyone's very subtle. No, that's a movie with doctor prescribed. Yes, no one raises their voice in that one either, right? Everyone's very subtle. No, that's a movie with two very normal voices at the center. Who's the co-star? Lorraine Braco!

Get out of the jungle! What are you doing here? Lorraine Braco and actress I often like. Not her best work. No. No. Let's be clear, that was specifically an impression of Lorraine Braco in Medicine Man. If what you heard us do just now sounded mean, wait until you watch Medicine Man.

It's going to feel forgiving. It's going to feel like Tim Curry and Uncle Redock feel understated. Wow, he's not uncorking it at all. Jermell, take us out. Unclear and Present to Andrew. Yes. Yes. My podcast on Clear and Present Danger at John Gans.

Got a Patreon. We got a Patreon. We cover movies basically like the Huffer Redactober. Hell yeah. Most recent episode that should be a relatively soon after this record is executive decision. We're in 19, we're moving chronologically. This is more than over the podcast. It's moving chronologically through the 90s.

And so we're currently in 1996, which is a good, fun year because we'll have Independence Day later on. We should get through 97 this year as well, which will get us to Air Force One. We're kind of in like prime 90s action film territory. And then on Patreon, we do kind of like classic Cold War movies that we just did Marathon Man, a great movie.

Yes, very fun. Had not seen it in a long time. Very disturbing and unsettling dental torture scene. Oh yeah. That is undoubtedly true. Quite a lot. Is it safe? Is that what he says? Yeah. Is it safe? Yeah. It's just like Dustin Hoffman's desperation. No, it's a really well-known scene. It's just like Dustin Hoffman's desperation. Like, no, it's a really well

I just see it's like it's it's really unsanitary. I mean, famously that's where Olivier to have a money to try acting. But, uh, which is really funny, but, um, they're both really good at that movie. Olivia is that's what's fascinating about this scene is they're coming out from different angles and you're like, both effective. Am I wrong in thinking that this is Jermail's fifth appearance? What? Oh, let me look that up. I almost let the slide behind me.

Am I a fiver now? Because there's one Patreon appearance, which is its own column. So I was on the Blic Pinter and the Stray of the Blic Pinter. That was Patreon. I think I got to rewatch that movie. Because the thing about it is that it rocks, but it does have like campy classic stuff too. That's so good.

So that was a page trial, but then Ollie. Rosewood. Rosewood, Forest Gump, Spider-Man 3. No, this is your sixth episode. This is my sixth episode. Ollie, Forest Gump, Rosewood, Spider-Man 3 and battling Butler in the general. That's right.

Wow. So you're already a five timer. Okay. Well, welcome to the six timers class. What, what happens when you hit 99 on your show? Have you discussed this? Well, so it might turn two keys and something happened. I don't know if I've discussed with the job, but my, my conception of the, of the arc of the podcast, the actual last movie that falls

into this type is the sum of all fears. Right. Oh wow. It begins with a half for October. It ends with the sum of all fears. Oh wow. It begins with a hundred for October, it ends with the sum of all fears. The sum of all fears very much is a post-Cold War, you know, these are the threats to the United States. It's terrorism, but it's not Middle Eastern terrorism.

It's like Russia's unstable. It's like it's very, it's very post-Cold War to me. We will likely, assuming our friendship continues, we will likely just keep moving through in the 2000s. Do the 9-11 thing. But that's what it's gonna say. I was first saying, right. The political thrill.

Some of all fears is like the last one out of the gates that isn't influenced by 9-11. Exactly. And then that's what's interesting about it. And then they're all very much like 9-11 influence. But quite a while. Right. I remember that being a movie where there was like

consternation in the marketing of like, should we include this scene with the plane? There's a shot of an explosion. And even though it wasn't about anything close to what it happened, people were still touched about. That's fascinating. Well, people should listen. Yep. And you can find me over at the New York Times assuming you read it. If you don't, that's okay. It doesn't offend me. Wait, I should just send you an email updating you on how subscribed I am to the New York Times at all times.

Yeah. Do you write the crosswords at all? I do that a lot. No, I do the wordle every day. Thanks. Yeah. All right, wrap it up. I gotta go back.

Well, you can wrap it. You go in the bathroom. Yeah, David's going to the bathroom. Now we really get to have some fun. Thank you all for listening. I don't know. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty, our associate producer. Thank you to Agent McKen, production coordinator,

and also editor on the show along with Alex Barron. Thank you to JJ Birch for our research. Joe Bone, Pat Reynolds for our artwork. Lane Montgomery, the great American novel for our theme song, you could a blank check pod.com for links to some real nerdy shit including blank check special features our Patreon where we do franchise commentaries right now. We're doing the Terminator movies. What's your overall sort of? Terminator feeling I Really like the Terminator movies I really like the Terminator movies. I'm forgiving of most of them other than Terminator Genesis, which I think is just like...

That's my fucking opinion. Yeah, Genesis is the one where I'm just like, this is running on fumes and not very enjoyable. Terminator Salvation, not a good movie, has some cool visual stuff. I agree. Like has some cool concepts. So glad David's in the bathroom for this because he was, we got into a fucking fight over this one, Mike. But I feel like the Terminator franchise is a franchise that performs well below what it could be. Absolutely. For reasons I don't quite understand.

I thought Dark Fate was like, even though it was basically sort of like, what if we did T2 again? Yeah, it's good. Yeah. And that's a good choice. That's what they should have been doing the whole time. But it's always been so strange to me that that franchise, which is out the gate with two, you know, phenomenal films. Masterpieces.

Yeah. And it just, it's not been able to figure out. And part of me wonders if it's just sort of like, it's so wedded, the franchise becomes so identified with Schwarzenegger. But how do we fit Schwarzenegger into this? That's a big problem. And then they get too caught up in the lore. Like, what is the lore?

What's the timeline? What's the lore? When sort of like the thing that makes the franchise work, it's like, man, these are glorified chase films, right? These are, you are being chased by the scariest thing you can imagine and nothing you can do can kill it. Yeah. So let's talk about the

Terminator David? Let's turn that let's find let's write around that. Yes. I will say like living in the time of watching the reboot happen over and over again I found it frustrating to watch them fuck it up and now that we're in a space where like terminators on ice and everyone stopped trying to make it happen. It has been very fun to do the commentary episodes and basically from a safe distance watch Saigele Bob step on the rakes over and over again. Like that's what it becomes. Yeah. Of like, let me turn the other way. That's also a rake. I mean, the one, the, I think the, I think, so I do have like a terminator ranking and like in my

ranking, I think my third favorite termininator thing is the Sarah Connor Chronicles Wow in part because I think it actually gets some of what works about Terminator like not so much timeline stuff But sort of like oh you're you're being chased by something that's unstoppable and will Wants to kill you and that's all it cares about. Well, I Tramiel, I love that. Thank you again for being here. Are you welcome? And as always it sounds like we now have to do all of the Sarah Connor Chronicles on Patreon, David. Oh, God.