Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Ice Storm with Emily Yoshida

Episode Date: July 29, 2018

Emily Yoshida (Night Call podcast) returns to discuss 1997’s bleak drama, The Ice Storm. But what drew Ang Lee to this project? Is ‘HU’ a good shorthand for hook up? Is this one of the top films to portray the winter in the Northeast? Together they discuss key parties, being passed out in a bathroom, reminisce about the nineties and Griffin shares a Elliott Gould tale. This episode is sponsored by [RXBAR](https://www.rxbar.com/check) PROMO: CHECK and [Who? Weekly podcast](https://www.whoweekly.us/). And check out [Blank Check’s wiki!](http://blank-check.wikia.com/wiki/Blank_Check_with_Griffin_and_David_Wiki)

Because of podcasts, we are connected to the outside world from our bodies. Like when you smell things, because when you smell a smell, it's not really a smell. It's part of the object that has come off of it. Podcasts. So when you smell something bad, it's like in a way you're eating it. This is why you should not really smell things in the same way you don't eat everything in the world around you, because as a smell, it gets inside you. So the next time you go into the bathroom after someone else has been there,

remember what kind of podcast you are in fact eating. It's not a bad Elijah. Thank you. So the next time you go into the bathroom after someone else has been there, remember what kind of podcast you are in fact eating. It's not a bad Elijah. Thank you, Teen Elijah. One of two reasons I reset. Oh, because you actually wanted to get the voice? I wanted to get the voice right and I also wanted to say podcast more than 15 times. Podcast. Podcast. What would

your line have been? Elijah, podcast. My line would have been you're touching that reckless jerk off for god's sake he's trying to get into your podcast yeah that's it i mean that's a great one i almost did the reachy you can take your pants off and i'll podcast it but that's as far as it goes there's a lot of good lines there are a lot of good that was I was like trying to avoid replacing penis with podcast

sure which are a lot of the best options in this movie right yeah um hello everybody my name is Griffin Newman

my name is David Sims this is Blank Check with Griffin and David great it's a podcast about filmographies directors who have massive success throughout their careers

and give them a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they... Ooh. Ooh. Ooh, they storm, baby. Okay, they freeze over.

Ooh. Brr. You get electrocuted. Brr. Shit, shit, shit, shit, shit. All right, enough. Teeth shuddering. This is a May series on the films of Ang Lee. Yeah. brrr you get electrocuted brrr alright enough teeth shuddering this is my series

on the films of Ang Lee yeah it's called Broke Pod Mount Kess sure rolls off the tongue sure it's fun

because our guests never know what the podcast is called yes yes and this is my

conditional favorite of his films mmm yeah it's up there for me it is my favorite of his films. Yeah, it's up there for me. It is my favorite of his films that doesn't star a Marvel superhero. Right, right. That just features it textually. Yeah, yeah.

It's called The Ice Storm. This is probably the second best Fantastic Four movie ever made. I had that thought. I was just going to say it was the best one. Incredibles. I know you're not an Incredibles fan. Emily doesn't like that. Oh, I like the Incredibles. It's just like the craziest, the most Randian of all of them. So I like that movie.

I mean, look, at this point, we've dug into it. We've raked over these coals. We have. We did it all. We've talked about it and we came to no conclusive answers because his filmography is confusing. Because he is a perplexing public figure. A textual Gordian knot.

Oh, that's one of your blank check bingos. Yeah. I'm trying to reestablish the terms. I want people to get big bingo scores. But this is The Ice Storm. It is 1997 masterpiece. It's a fantastic movie. it's a phenomenal film and um represents an interesting point in his career okay i would argue go on um it's it's not a check it's his

first american film really fully american yeah right it's also the first film he wanted to make after the father knows best trilogy oh interesting first film he wanted to make after the Father Knows Best trilogy. Oh, interesting. And he got hired, essentially, to make Sense and Sensibility. Yeah. So, like,

he had this one already cooking. Look, this movie opened some doors for him. He was able to make this movie because of some doors that were opened by his previous work. Uh-huh.

But our guest on the show today, this movie was a big door opener for her. This movie changed my life, man. This movie fucking changed your door opener for her. This movie changed my life, man. This movie fucking changed your life. You played this movie with candles and it changed your life. I gave you a set of headphones

and I... Yeah, right. Listen to the ice storm. Listen to the ice storm. Just the audio track. You heard a sad oboe. Yeah. Some mournful flutes. Yeah. Hi, guys. You know who that is. It's the mother of blankies herself.

Host of Night Call, Emily Ishida is back in the studio. Hello. Hey, Emily. Thank you for having me back. I feel like I was just on, but... But not really. Not in podcast time.

In real time, it's been about 15 minutes since the last episode you recorded. Yeah. Let me look at your Wikipedia. Podcast time, it's been about 15 minutes since the last episode you recorded. Let me look at your Wikipedia. Podcast time, it's been about six months. Oh, yeah. No, your guys' Wikipedia. This is like a relatively new discovery for me. I didn't create this, so neither did...

Really? No, no, no, no, no, no. You didn't spend all your spare time that you have creating a Wikipedia about your own podcast no it's incredible it's my first Wikipedia page

and I'm aware or like wiki page and I'm aware of with my face on it but I want to I don't want to do something this petty

and yet I do want to have the picture replaced on it ooh alright do you have a specific picture you want?

I have a staff photo that I just got from New York Mag, my place of employ, and I feel like it would be a more appropriate picture to have on it, because I look very podcast-ready in the picture, whereas that one, I'm on vacation in Berlin, and I look really chill, and that's not my podcast persona.

So it's more that the new picture is so apt for the entry rather than that the old picture is like... I have like, there's one picture that people use all the time that I hate. It was a Twitter avatar. It was my Twitter. Yeah, it's my Twitter avatar. I've been meaning to change it for a long time because my hair hasn't looked like that for over a year. But yeah, whatever.

It's fine. I'll say this. Some of our guests on the show have said that their wiki entries for the blank check wiki are better than their own professional, like, bios. I'd love to know what that's like. I'd love to have my... Oh, you mean like a professional, like, on wikipedia.com? No, they're like, the blankies bio that they've written for me is better than the one that

I use for my work. Oh, so you want to, like, port it over. That's what I've heard. Other people who have been on our show have said that. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, good job to whoever runs that thing. Yeah.

All our blankies. It's a collective effort, I assume. Yeah. Right? Aren't wikis usually? The doozers. I don't really know how they work. Yeah.

Down in Fraggle Rock. Anyway, this is your sixth or seventh episode. Joining the six-timers club. Wait, wait, wait. No, it's your seventh episode. Are you kidding? It depends on the two. Yeah.

No, it's your eighth if you split Titanic. What? Yeah. Podcast Reawakens, Speed Racer. If I could drop this mic, I would,

and I would actually throw my hands up. I'm proud to be victorious here. Wait, where's Lawson? Where's Lawson? No, I'm wrong it's your 7th or 6th thank you but I will say I saw Richard recently

and he was like asking about future I don't know I think I mentioned that you were going to be on the Ice Storm episode and he was like so that would make her would that be her 6th we had a very heated slash drunk tete-a-tete about our rankings among the hosts, knowing that we are neck and neck. And with JD as well.

With JD, but he wasn't with us at that moment, but I feel like there's some light competition. I feel like we're going to start. Richard's done five, and this is your sixth assuming we're counting Titanic. That was one recording session. It was just a very long one.

I mean, Ehrlich in an episode that has been recorded but hasn't come out yet throws down the gauntlet that he wants to be the first person to join the 25-timers club.

So he's behind. Who did that? Ehrlich. Oh, yeah, right. He wants to post Baldwin numbers. Go for it, Ehrlich. Yeah, right. How is he? I mean, You guys would have to do an entire

television season or something with him. How would you jump up to 25? If we did a Fassbender miniseries and we let him guess multiple times. For people who have really long filmographies. Yeah. I don't know. King Vidor?

Bud Boddicker? Yeah. I don't fucking know. Buster Keaton? Richard Flesher? Okay. Someone suggested Buster Keaton recently. It's like 46 films.

Per year. I mean, it would be a lot of like, in this one he, you know, I don't know, rode the rails. I'd be like, you know. Hey, hey. Everyone's a masterpiece. Sure. Except for the ones that aren't. He's made a lot of mediocre movies.

But his best films are the best. Anyway, today we're talking about The Ice Storm. And as alluded to. Emily. Yeah. This film plays a very important role in your life. You pitched yourself right at this one. Yeah.

This movie, well, I've watched it many times. But mostly because I want to say in the year 2005, I wrote an essay, my critical essay for my second shot getting into the UCLA School of Film and Television because I did not get in the first time I applied. Were you already at UCLA and you were trying to get into the school? Marymount in LA and uh and then hated it and left school for a year and was and uh I had applied to get into UCLA for the next year didn't get in so I took a year off because I was like the only place I was gonna go and then I tried again and I got in uh and I wrote my critical essay on the ice storm hells yeah and it and I got in so and it changed your life? yeah it changed my life I made a lot of really strong points about Nixon and

power and authority and what else what else I was telling David because I found it and then I stupidly forgot to bring it in but I think I'll try to read it part of it at least some point later in the podcast I was reading through it and it's cringy always to

read anything you wrote when you were younger that that that much I understand I don't think that's unusual but I also realized that like the overall gist of it and uh the the kind of climax of the essay is basically the same as uh an essay i wrote like last month about annihilation so now i'm i'm i'm right in the the ice storm is annihilation tip and that's going to be any any opportunity we get to make the ice storm into annihilation i'll say i rewatched it last night and independently came to that bridge between the two films really i think they're two of the films that best uh a visualized depression yeah yeah there's something very subtle in both films and obviously the two films. Really? I think they're two of the films that best visualize depression. Yeah. Yeah. There's

something very subtle in both films and obviously one's more of a heightened genre thing, one's more of a slice of life thing. But I like, I think this movie gets cold weather as right as Do the Right Thing gets hot weather. Oh, that's such a good point. Yeah. That's very true. And I think

in the same way that Do the Right Thing is able to marry that hot weather to a sense of rage, this marries it to a sense of malaise and depression where every shot in this movie just feels sad without being melancholic or operatic. Well, it's like everything grinding to a halt, like the way the molecules stop moving. The way that the train stops going to New Canaan. Yeah. And the negative zone. It's a very precise sort of aesthetics in that way. And also, this movie does not get enough credit for how good the sound is.

Oh, the sound is great. Unbelievable. And goes really far in terms of selling all the ice because, like because I watched a lot of the special features last night when I couldn't sleep, and they talk about the fact that they filmed it in the spring, and it was a little chilly. They used a bunch of hair products, like hairsprays for when you need the sort of frosting on things.

But other than that, most of when you see ice in the film, it's like plastic, or when it's wet, it's gel. I knew it was spring because it's so green. Yes. It's a very verdant movie.

Yeah. Yes. But every time there's like a step in the film, the ice sounds are so precise, especially when it's Elijah Wood stepping foot by foot, boot by boot onto the diving board. Or the slow motion across the field.

All that stuff. And like the crunch of his boots, like not just the crunch of the ice under the boots, but the crunch of the boots are so frozen that flexing the boots. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah, I love the idea of it being the do the right thing for winter and depression.

I think it's the do the right thing for winter and depression. I think it's the do the right thing for waspy depression. What happens when rich white people build to a heli? Oh, it gets very cold and everyone stops moving. Someone very quietly dies. Well, I connected to this movie

also, like, all of the elements and the milieu of this movie is like an alien landscape. It was at the point that I milieu of this movie is like an alien landscape we was at the point that i first saw this movie which would have been in high school um i yeah i guess it would have been high school or junior high or something i like i didn't know like i didn't know that you could take a train to connecticut from new york like who does that i didn't know that like uh yeah i didn't know that, like, yeah, I didn't know, like, what a boring school was. I didn't understand where he was going to school.

I didn't understand any of these, like, signifiers of, like, what kinds of people these are. I just connected to it on a purely, like, emotional level, like, teenage level and everything. And then as I watched it later, it was like, okay, I understand. Like, this is, for some people, this would be a very strong, like nostalgic document. It's evocative of the type of a person in a community. Yeah, I only kind of picked up on that later because I'm just like I was East Coast dumb for many, many years. And yeah, but I still I it also was the first film that I remember as like a young, you know, teenage viewer trying to, you know, that I remember as like a young,

you know, teenage viewer trying to, you know, collecting my mind about how to watch movies and everything and realizing like, oh, this was made or written by a guy who's like in his forties now, who's like writing about like at the time that he grew up in. Right. And like,

this is going to happen every, every decade. And the next thing I remember thinking that about and having that realization about was Freaks and Geeks. And I was like, we're just going to follow, we're going to travel our way through the 80s now and just have that wave of nostalgia that kind of moves along with whatever generation is in creative power.

Absolutely. You get Landline, which is our generation's The Ice Storm. Yeah, totally. Bad. Except not that good. David and I were talking about how this movie for both of us, and I didn't know if other people felt this way, but you volunteered this information where you're like,

oh, we're on the same page about this. And I feel like if you saw this movie in high school or younger, it functions this way. This was like a big sexual movie for me because this is one of the movies that deals with sex in a very odd way without being like a sex movie. Yeah, I think I was too young to see this movie.

I think I saw it when I was like 13. I think I saw it at 13. And I was, like, I was, like, think, I was probably seeing a movie like American Pie at the same time. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, I'm- Those are very different messages about sex and teens in America American Pie

I'm like wait is this this is how it's all gonna work and this I'm like wait so no one just no one even takes their clothes off

like it's just miserable comedy sex which is very objective based and then if weird things happen they're like gross

out gags and then this movie deals with like weird psychologies like they're like wait I thought it was just putting stuff in other things what are these other yeah acts that are happening you have to wear a nixon

mask right but even the whole for me a richie character where it's like which one does she like doesn't she have a crush on one boy why is she going back and forth between the two of them i could understand that i'm just saying all these things are like this is a movie that isn't cut and dry both between the teenagers who are figuring out their sexuality and the adults who are trying to redefine their sexuality. All of it's strange. The teen stuff I almost had a better handle on. It was the adult stuff

that I was very confused by. The key party thing broke my brain. I knew what that was kind of but it still kind of breaks my brain to watch it. The first time I ever heard of this film was in, I think, 17 Magazine or something because there was some little blurb or profile of... It was either Elijah Wood or Christina Ricci.

Sure. And both of those actors were very important to me as a young person. Christina Ricci was huge for me. Yeah, she was me. She was Wednesday Addams. Only 90s kids will understand what Christina Ricci was. Yeah, she was me. She was Wednesday Addams. I mean, look, only 90s kids will understand, but Christina Ricci was. Yeah, she was incredibly formative to my idea of self. I was going to ask you that.

Was she like an Emily Ishida avatar? 100%. Yeah. Like from Wednesday Addams on. Casper's a master. Yeah, a little bit of Casper. I didn't really watch that one that much, but I had a huge crush on Elijah Wood also. And so then I heard that

they were so so this the 17 magazine article which is like not equipped to really like discuss and I started I was like they have a hot on-screen smooching scene and I was like oh my god this is gonna be the biggest thing in the world this is gonna blow my little mind and then I didn't actually see the film for I don't think I saw it and I definitely didn't see it in theaters um I don't know how soon once I came to't think I saw it. I definitely didn't see it in theaters. I don't know how soon, once it came to home video, I saw it. But I was like, oh, this is not really hot. It's more kind of sad and weird. It's weird that the next year she made The Opposite of Sex.

She went from playing an awkward 14-year-old to playing a femme fatale, essentially. And she says that in the book, the character is written as more of a conventional femme fatale right in the book i think she's sleeping with boys and girls there's multiple uh scenes and she's kind of a traditional lolita type yeah and she said that angley wanted to work with her she felt like she was very much in her awkward stage yeah and he molded the character around her current she was older she was like 17 when she made this movie. Yeah. Yeah.

She just looks really young because she's got those chubby cheeks. Everyone in this movie has chubby cheeks. But she's also in like one of those weird teenage periods where you're like your neck is not in proportion to the rest of your body. Like parts of your body are growing faster than others. Also, the thing that I find so endearing about this character, I feel like is like just the tell about everything you need to know about this character from the first well really from the first scene that she's in when she's watching tv is that she's got she is always covering herself up yeah from the neck down like she is just so not sure how to feel about her body even though she's like doing all this precocious stuff she's still clearly extremely

uncomfortable about everything and you know it's like half half the scene she's doing all this precocious stuff, she's still clearly extremely uncomfortable about everything. And half the scene, she's wearing this cape that's just like a tent over her body, which feels important. Yeah, I don't know. It's a great teen character, even though... It's an amazing teen character. Yeah.

I remember... The idea of her mom seeing her biking and being like, oh, she seems different. Yeah. Because no one's looking at character. Yeah. I remember. The idea of her mom seeing her biking and like being like, oh, she seems different. Yeah. Because no one's looking at her. Yeah. And it's like the mom says this really profound thing. Christina Ricci's like, shut the fuck up.

I don't want to deal with emotions right now. She's like, are you drunk? Think about you like a person. Yeah. Well, that's also good. Joan Allen is very well cast and she's playing this person. She's like, I had a thought about your internal thinking.

You just look very free. Right. Kevin Kline tells... She reaches like, Jesus, what the fuck? What are you talking about? Kevin Kline tells this story on like one of the

retrospective Criterion documentaries where he walked by Joan Allen and she was sitting somewhere around location, like not in her trailer pointedly with the script and with a cigarette sort of like staring off into the middle distance and like a very Joan Allen way. And he was just like, she's so fucking intense. Like, look at just the amount of energy she's putting into this thing.

And then he was like, should I be doing that? Is that like, is she a better actor than me? And then he went to the craft service table. Kevin Kline's a... He's a personality actor. He's very technical, but Joan Allen's one of these people where... Joan Allen is one of those actors who sometimes the moves she's doing are almost imperceptible. It just feels like she's internalizing as much as she can, and then they call action and she tries to move

as little as possible you know but this is like she said she was very disappointed by the response to this movie because this was she thought the best movie she's ever been in she still thinks it's the best film she's ever been in and you kind of get the sense of

like this is kind of the perfect Joan Allen character and you imagine her going like this is it this is the one yeah this is my like this movie you know so i'm not really aware of the response to it at all but i don't know if that's something you guys want to discuss now or later yeah it opened at the canon film festival we can talk about so like like i said he james shamus read this book like i think even before it's published the book's published in 94 and he brings it to Ang Lee And he says oh my god This book means a lot to me

And Ang Lee loves it He loves the image of the father Finding the dead child And then crying He's like yes that's a movie This smells like an Ang Lee movie So he wants to make it And then he gets hired

onto Sense and Sensibility so this movie gets sort of delayed and then it gets made but they said they were filming this when Sense and Sensibility

got the Oscar nominations right so it was like it was a pretty quick cash in they probably made it yeah right in like early 96

Tobey Maguire said he went up to him on set that day and said congratulations and he said what like he was just like so kind of Yeah, right. In like early 96. Tobey Maguire said he went up to him on set that day and said congratulations. And he said what? Like he was just like so kind of into his thing. But this was like he was just kind of moving along.

Like Ang Lee was going to keep on making films. This film was at the Cannes Film Festival. Yeah. Win's Best Screenplay. Won Best Screenplay, which is, you know, a minor Cannes award, but still. It was well received, but still. It was well-received, I think. It was released by Fox Searchlight, who are like an awards studio. But it was released in September.

Really? Yeah. I was just looking it up and it said November. Lies! September 27th. The thing Sigourney said is that they kind of got boned, not Sigourney's words, by Titanic and Full Monty. Because Fox had those two films that fall.

They had the biggest movie of all time. Yeah. And then they had this weird breakout indie success. I think the thing they really got boned by was the Full Monty. Because Titanic doesn't come out, obviously, for quite a while longer. Yeah.

But the Full Monty's out by the time this comes out and fox tries to platform it in the same way they open it small yeah it's the most miserable movie ever made uh it doesn't make a lot of money uh it gets no oscar nominations you know it was like planned as like an oscar player you know you got kevin klein he's like uh at that certainly at that point still a very respected star they could have sold it on the like the swinging angle more

they don't which I respect a lot have you seen the trailer yeah the trailer's weird I haven't seen the trailer oh wait which one

wait there's a trailer that's on the DVD that's like it's very like everyone can't stop sleeping with everyone else oh it is

okay well the posters in the advertising are very like- The poster's fucking sad. This isn't going to be as bummer. We're all going to stare into the cold and think about death. There's also that weird French poster that's like ice cubes. Oh, weird. But it's not good.

That looks extremely 90s. It's yes. The other one is kind of like you could place it anytime within like 20 years. The ice Storm. And then there's the DVD cover, which is not the slivers of the faces. The DVD cover is the one I'm most familiar with. I'll get it for you guys. I think Sigourney's point was not that the Ice Storm was having screens taken away from it by Titanic,

but more that they thought this was going to be a big... They put their resources behind it. Yeah, that's the one black in terms of making an Oscar movie which would then translate into eyeballs

it was never Full Monty broke that and then they had the front runner and it was just like but also the Full Monty made like a hundred million dollars

right exactly and it was 45 I take it back but you know Ice Storm just wasn't a hit yeah I think the reviews were like respectful

but not the kind of rush to see it reviews that maybe you would want. Sigourney got nominated for a Globe. She won the BAFTA. She won the BAFTA, which is bizarre. It's such a good performance, though. It's just a small role.

It's so weird. I mean, I love her. I mean, I think everybody, all the lead cast is great in this movie, but like she would not be the one that I would pick. Not at all. I mean, she's good. Yeah, she's great. But she doesn't have like some big moment

great pants I think it's such a good performance but I also I love Siguruni in general yeah but it would be like my sixth favorite performance in the movie really?

I think she's like two or three for me what? yeah she's like highest like four for me yeah like all three kids

have to be in there and then klein and alan like they all beat uh krumholtz is the number one best performance in this film so david uh i am uh a well-known garbage belly you are you eat uh terrible things and my body suffers from yes it doesn't it's not like you can handle it no not at not at all. It's bad for you. No, I don't have the stamina to eat what I eat. You eat bad things and bad things happen to you as a result. Just finished filming season two of The Tick. Sure.

And my body has been collapsing. Okay. I felt like garbage. Okay. I think it's just the stress of everything, right? I was feeling sick the other day. Uh-huh. My appetite's totally gone.

Okay. And it's that thing where it's like i know i need to eat sounds like you need to see a doctor but okay you're hungry i'm probably dying you you need to all right you need to eat but but i've had this a lot recently where i've just been working so much and like physically demanding stuff that my like appetite's gone okay and any meal looks dying to me and you know what i i genuinely do what? I reach for an RX bar. Which is your like number one favorite blank check product. Without question, I love these things.

You love the RX bar. First of all, it tastes good. Second of all, I know it's actually healthy for me. They got all the ingredients right on the front. They label every bar with everything that's in it. So you got like egg whites, dates, nuts, chocolate, right? Fruit, spices. It's just all right on there. egg whites, dates, nuts, chocolate, right? Fruit, spices.

It's just all right on there. Egg whites, dates, almonds. You're listing things I don't like. Right. Take them apart. Griffin's not into it. Not at all. Put them in a bar.

And people go, oh, this is healthy for you. And I go, I'm not going to touch it. Not interesting. You put it in a bar and then tell me, hey, it's peanut butter chocolate flavored. I will eat it. There's some savory options. Yeah. There's some sweet options.

Yeah. Peanut butter and berries. You like that one? Yeah. Chocolate's some savory options. Yeah. There's some sweet options. Yeah. Peanut butter and berries. You like that one? Yeah. Chocolate sea salt. Right. So you got a little more of a kick in that guy. Mango pineapple. You're going sweet. Right. The blueberry flavor. I mean, I like them all, honestly. Yeah. Apple cinnamon. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a pie.

Yeah. And it really is. It's like, you know, it feels like the best, most sustainable snack I can have. You can eat it for breakfast. They're a good snack. They're a little energy boost. They're perfect pocket food. Pocket food.

And egg white protein, it's like easy for your body to absorb it. Which, once again, like notorious egg haters speaking over here. You don't like eggs, but you like RX bars. I get grossed out. I like them too, but you're the acolyte. This is the only egg delivery system that I have ever enjoyed. So listen up. For 25%

off your first order, you just go to rxbar.com slash check and enter promo code check at checkout. Or if you don't want them, you can also just order them and send them to me. I will gladly eat them. I enjoy these things immensely. rxbar.com slash check and make the address out. Casa Griffin. Casa Griffin. 17 will gladly eat them. I enjoy these things immensely. Rxbar.com slash check and then make out the address out Casa Griffin. Yeah.

Casa Griffin. 1717 Griffin Boulevard. Do we think at this time that Krumholtz is hotter than McGuire? That's my question. Uh, define hotness in terms of career or in terms of physical attractiveness? In terms of pulling

down ladies because, you know, he's kind of a ladies man and Maguire's like the dork here. Oh, I think that, I mean, Maguire is like on his path to pussy posse. Yeah, that's the thing. That's what I'm saying. It's like. This is the tragedy of David Crumholtz. He never got a pussy posse.

And he like. He never even got adjunct membership. And then Oscar Isaac came along and like took his career away from him. And like he, while he was on numbers, he's like, cool, I'm on numbers. I can. Right. And then Oscar Isaac came along and took his career away from him. And while he was on numbers, he's like, cool, I'm on numbers. I'm set for life. And Oscar Isaac was like, what if 5% less Jewish? And America was like, yes!

Star Wars, please! My boyfriend in college, we always used to joke that he couldn't have a career at the time. This was like in the mid-2000s. He could not have a career because of David Krumholz. Did you have a Krumholz-y boyfriend? I had a very Krumholz-y boyfriend. Krumholzian? Yeah.

Krumholzian. All right. He was, well, this relates to another movie I watched kind of as a companion piece to Ice Storm, but he's a little Elliot Gould-y. Oh, yeah. Ooh. I mean, Elliot Gould is one of the hottest bitches in the game. I was tweeting about Elliot Gould the other day. You were.

I was reminiscing. Which Gould did you rewatch? Well, so over the weekend I watched, I saw Lungabye at Alamo. Oh, that's one from the Goulden Age. It really is. It's from the Goulden Age. It didn't even matter what I answered. But I was hoping that was going to be the answer.

She said like Ocean's 13. I would have been a little boned. I just watched like select episodes of Friends. Yeah, I would have been fucked if you had done that. And then I watched Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. Oh, yeah. Maybe another Golden Age. Maybe the start of the Golden Age.

Yeah, that's the start of it. That was the beginning of the Golden Age. Yeah, I don't think the night they ra another Golden Age. Maybe the start of the Golden Age. Yeah, that's the start of it. That was the beginning of the Golden Age. Yeah, I don't think the night they raided Minsky's was the start of the Golden Age. I just like referencing the night they raided Minsky's.

Harry and Walter take New York. I think that might be later. I'm not sure. That's a later film. I'm saying that's maybe towards the end of the Golden Age. Oh, you're saying,

oh, yeah, okay. They took New York. I'm still living in the Golden Age. I don't care whatever anybody says. That's the thing. Gould's still kind of charming. Yeah.

Like, you know, obviously he's an older man. Yeah. He's an older gentleman. He gives a good interview. I was reading a lot of like recent interviews of his. I forget. You know Griffin knows him, right? I mean, no.

Because they were on a TV show together. Have I ever told my Gould story on air? Because you told it to me. I have the one that's worth telling. All right. He's in this movie, right? That's why we're talking about him? Yeah, exactly. We're staying really on track.

If I had boys like Karen Hanna, he would be in Emily's Boys. Right, yes, of course. Oh, he's a grift guy, 100%. He's a David's dude. I don't know. He was on Mulaney. The one episode of Mulaney that I was on Mulaney the one episode of Mulaney

that I was on that no one ever saw the pilot that was never aired the single greatest piece of television let's just tell everyone that lost the pop culture but he's one of my ultimate guys and so that was like the embarrassment of riches was like getting to work

with him and spend a lot of time with him. Because when you do multi-camera stuff, a lot of it's like sitting around. It's like a school play. Yeah, yeah. Where you're just like hanging out in the rafters waiting for them to call you up for your scene. Yeah. I spent a lot of time with him and we bonded a lot talking about anxiety and depression. He like I was like, oh my God, Elliot Gould's about to become my father figure.

And then I kind of was I felt so wounded after I got fired off the show that I got his personal information I never had the courage to reach out to him again and I haven't talked to him since oh I thought you were going to say that you reached out to him and he didn't respond I was so worried that would happen that I didn't want to put myself out there I'm sure I bet he would have

I think he would have because he's a real man and I feel like we connected and like I that week or two I think he would have I bet he would have this is a real match and I feel like we connected and like I that week or two that we were working together I was like this is gonna be the next

eight years of my life this is gonna be unbelievable he's gonna get help me get a good head on my shoulders right before we went out to film the episode he put his hand

on my shoulder and he went your family they didn't show affection that much did they oh my god like right before I'm about to like enter.

And then you just like have tears streaming down your face because Elliot Gould has stared into your soul. But he said like, there was one night where we had like dinner at like the Ivy with like Lorne Michaels and everybody. And he kind of keyed in on me and he's like, how are you feeling? And I was like, I'm just trying to stay calm. And he's like, that's an interesting choice of words. C-A-L-M, calm.

And then he was like, can I give you something? And I went, sure. And the next day on set, on the back of his sides. So he didn't, you said sure, and then that was the end of that conversation. He said, there's a quote I want to give you. When I go home, I'm going to write it down. I'll bring it for you in the morning. And he wrote it on the back

of his script page. And it's, I have this framed on my wall. Oh my God, you just brought, it took you five seconds to bring that up on your phone. Where the world,

say to my favorites, where the world ceases to be the scene of our personal hopes and wishes, where we face it as free beings, admiring, asking, and observing,

there we enter the realm of art and science. Albert Einstein. I have to go take a break. Right? That's my most prized possession my entire life. Now, why am I talking about this for five minutes? Because I want to believe that Elliot Gould's listening

to this. He's going to reach out to me and say, I missed you. Gouldy, he loves podcasts about movies he wasn't in. And he loves David Krumholz. Starring young men who kind of have like a slight vibe of his, you know, sort of like a hairy-chested Jew vibe. I think that... They could really like put Barbara Streisand on his shoulder.

I think to get back on these Frozen train tracks, I think that Maguire's whole thing at the time, as Molly's game sort of illustrated, was being the wolf in sheep's clothing. Yes, of course. Not just that he played this sort of sad sack guys, but also that in life, it sounds like that was kind of his move.

I'm sure that they were flip-flop behind the scenes. I think so. Absolutely. I think he's already, you know, it's already fired up because he makes this boy's life with Leo in 93. Yeah, right, right. So they're already in the same circle.

And this is Leo's satanic year. And how old is he when he makes this? How old was Tobertbert's McGuire? He was born in 1975, so he'd be more like 21. Yeah. I mean, he's very baby face. Everybody has such a baby face. So this is his year, because this year he's in The Ice Storm and he's instructing Harry.

And then the next year he's in Pleasantville and Cider House Rules. No, Cider House Rules is 99. So next year he's in Fear and Lo's a villain cider house rules no cider house was 99 so next year he's in fear and loathing and pleasant film now this movie was huge for me because it starred three of my favorite actors it starred toby mcguire and joan allen from pleasantville one of my favorite ever movies that i watched over and over again and it starred christina ricci from adam's family values especially values both i own both on vhs but values is the one that she gets the Oscar nom for in a just world

yes she's all time Thanksgiving scene star also between this yes that's true she's the queen of Thanksgiving is there a third

Ritchie Thanksgiving film it'd be like perfect to do a Ritchie Thanksgiving triple feature I don't know is Buffalo 66 like set at Thanksgiving

like a speed racer takes place that's right we've already talked about Speed Racer. We love some Ritchie. So I was like all and I like Kevin Kline because I loved A Fish Called Wanda.

I don't know if I'd seen like a lot of other Kevin Kline. In-N-Out? Yes I had seen In-N-Out. I saw that in theaters. I saw that in theaters. I saw this on the BBC. On BBC 2. Where I. Did your family have some expensive satellite I saw that in theaters. I saw this on the BBC, on BBC Two, where I, all right. Wait, did your family have some expensive satellite package where you got foreign channels?

I don't understand how you would have gotten the BBC. No. How much was your cable bill? BBC Two, like not just BBC, like. BBC Two. BBC Two. We don't have BBC Two in America. No, it's called BBC America. You've gotten the wrong name of the thing.

I don't know. You have to explain yourself here because we are so perplexed. If I can explain, BBC Two was sort of the channel for the more alternative stuff because BBC One was like the flagship channel. Right, okay, but there's like one BBC. Right, but so on my TV in Britain where I lived. Whoa! Ben, you're so dead right now ben is dead yeah on bbc2 i lived in britain it was channel number two

i had five channels so that's where you saw this i saw this on the bbc i remember either entertainment weekly or time out new york used to do a chart of movies and their appropriateness with relation to children yeah That's very service-y and nice and I don't think any outlet would be so uncool as to do this these days. And they were like, here are the different quadrants of where this movie has potential offenses.

But they would include movies that were clearly 100% offensive. And I remember the Ice Storm being included in sexuality. They said two children show each other, go into a bathroom and show each other their genitalia not true only one of them does

yeah however they described it and I was like that movie sounds weird and it always stuck in my craw didn't remember what the movie was

I think I'd seen Sense of Sensibility when I was sick my mom made me watch it I saw Crashing Tiger when it came out I didn't like it and then I loved Hulk

oh so you you got to this after Hulk. So, after Hulk. And you're like, okay, I got to check out this guy. Yeah. Got to delve through the film. Yeah. And I remember I watched it at summer camp on a laptop.

Okay. And I was like, I am all about how sad this movie is. And this movie is all weird sexual tension. Where was your summer camp? New Milford, Connecticut. I was about to... My guess was that your summer camp was either Massachusetts or Connecticut. New Canaan, Connecticut.

New Canaan, Connecticut. So I did not know this. So the most recent time I watched this for this podcast, I was watching with... The other day. The other day. You were watching it with... Well, we were watching it with a friend who... It was interesting to get his...

He had not watched it before. And he... This is, again, one of these things i'm just like east coast i'm about apparently that new canaan is known for all of its mid-century architecture um like these like it's there specifically for a reason because of all these insane transparent houses oh also my college essay did have a reference to how everybody lives in a glass house. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Send me my diploma. Pass me that giant bong, please. I still don't have my diploma from UCLA. Really?

Come on, UCLA. I'm still waiting on my diploma from CalArts. Yeah. But so that was interesting to learn this time around. That was a new fact I did not know to contextualize the film. But yeah, new Kanan Connecticut. Yeah, I mean, I was coming at this post-Hulk being like, okay, that movie is great.

Everyone else hates it. What's the weird stuff that he's bringing into the Hulk? And then this movie is like, oh, here's all the weird family psychodrama, which is already contextualized through the Marvel Comics prism. Yeah. Because the movie fucking opens with the Fantastic Four. It does.

Opens with T. McGuire's explaining comics for you, mansplaining comics for you. Mansplaining Fantastic Four issue 141. I will say that like I was expecting, I was fully bracing myself this time around

because I haven't seen this movie for at least five years. I own it on DVD. It's one of the few movies I do own on DVD. Fair. But I just hadn't seen it for a while. I bought the Criterion for this one.

I have the old Criterion with the line. Have you experienced Fox DVD? No, the old Fox. I've also heard this movie twice. I had the Fox DVD, then went to the Criterion DVD, then went to Criterion Blu-ray. Yeah, I have the Blu-ray. This movie is like a fucking straight shot

for me of sadness. This podcast is just an excuse for me to buy Blu-rays. Yeah, I have the Blu-ray. This movie is like a fucking straight shot for me of sadness. I mean, this podcast is just an excuse for me to buy Blu-rays. Anyway, but carry on. What was I saying? You were saying you hadn't seen it in five years and you were worried. Well, I was expecting an opening sequence that features now-known asshole Tobey Maguire. Now-known superhero asshole, too. Yeah.

Yeah. toby mcguire i've known superhero asshole too yeah yeah yeah also uh explaining comics and doing a like metaphor between the movie and a comic because like this is gonna be real cringy you have on this podcast called them baby books yeah i was like i don't i i want to get past the baby book part of this but it actually like works for me it's like fine I like it they don't do it too much and it also in 1997 you actually had to do this right you had to be you had to set up being academic about a comic book because people would be like comic book

that's for the kids still I don't know yeah but they just kind of hit this one metaphor which then they only revisit like once in the book it's a bigger metaphor in the book that he sees a four a flaming four in the sky at one point oh cool like it yeah in the book it's a bigger metaphor right in the book that he sees a four a flaming four

in the sky at one point oh cool like it's like the metaphor is very obvious that he's figuring out that his family

are like the fantastic four the final shot when he gets off the train feels very right yeah when the family's together at the end of the movie

it feels very fantastic for it to me with Christina Ricci of course being the thing all this repression no yeah no Joan Allen is Invisible Woman and Kevin Kline

is fucking Mr. Fantastic right and he's Human Torch he's flying through the skies yeah but it's also you get these great

like fucking Kirby drawings yeah sure filmed these like weird Annihilus right

and he's he's on a train coming back that has stalled Kirby drawings. Yeah, sure. Filmed. Like a nihilist. Right. And he's on a train coming back that has stalled. Reading his baby book. Emily, you're covering your mouth. What do you want to say? I really thought for a really long time that it was a nihilist. Great. That would be a good Marvel villain.

I believe in nothing. Yeah. I was like, yeah, that's why you would do all sorts of fucked up shit. Because you're an nihilist. Why are you fighting the Fantastic Four? I don't know. I don't believe in anything. Our arch-villain, Greg, come up.

A nihilist. Yeah, anyway. But this thing that I've always loved about the Fantastic Four, the idea that your family is your source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness. It's like the raw feed of everything you come from is also what holds you back. But he's on this train in media res. It's stuck on the ice.

The lights are off. He's trying to read it. It's quite an image, too, the frozen train. It's super dreamy, and especially not knowing the context of it in that opening it's like one of the it looks like an abandoned train that he's like hiding in almost yeah and it's like yeah it's like how is he living here it looks like you should be frozen uh and yeah and it's it is one of the few this has has become, I think, a very tired thing recently. In recent years, everybody has been doing the see the ending first. Hate in media res.

I hate it. Yeah. Not a fan. I like this one. Yeah. I do. I don't mind this one at all. That was another thing I was expecting to not work for me or feel like tired.

Retroactively tired. It's not the immediate rest that's trying to like give some big hint about where the story's going well it's not really in media res because Paul's entire storyline takes place completely separate like in media res would be like Kevin Kline waking up on the

floor of the bathroom or something how did I get here but that's the thing because he's so often away from them. That's where our producer Ben is, by the way. He's on the phone with us. Until the end of the movie, it's not like it's some big twist, but you kind of just feel like this is one of the times he's going back and forth.

You don't really care that much about where it is in the chronology. Yeah. But then from there we go to these two central families. The Hoods? Yes. Alan, Klein, Ricci, McGuire. Sure. The Hoods? Yes. Alan, Klein, Ricci,

McGuire. Sure. And then the Carvers. Jamie Sheridan, who's phenomenal in this fucking movie. He is, he's excellent. He's a good actor. Sigourney Weaver,

Elijah Wood, and then Adam Bird. What's his last? Adam Han Bird. Adam Han Bird. That's right. Little man Tate himself. The star of America's favorite prequel, Jumanji.

Yeah. Is he the... He's the monkey boy in Jumanji. He's Robin Williams, you mean. Oh, you're right. He's not, right. He's young Robin Williams. He's not the monkey boy.

He's in the beginning with Kirsten Dunst, right? No, no, no, no. Kirsten Dunst is the child. Who's the other... It doesn't matter. Who cares? Yeah. Literally, who cares?

I don't know not me anyway those are the two families they live close by yeah they're very close and they are

intermingled Kevin Klein is having an affair with they're like next door neighbors they're like next door neighbors but even in New Canaan that means they're like five minute walk away

from each other yeah right everyone's super isolated isolated right isolated and that's a very very clever metaphor yeah did you note that walk away from each other. Yeah. Right. Everyone's super isolated. Isolated. Right. Isolated.

And that's a very, very clever metaphor. Yeah. Did you note that in your essay? Isolated. Isolation. Yeah. And also their emotions are cold. Sure.

Also, it's 1973 and Nixon is on the TV all the time because Watergate is bubbling over. Which for our listeners, you have to imagine, the

context is like, it's like you have a president. People have lost faith in him. People have lost faith in him. People are really jaded about authority and our country. You feel like he's up to criminal activities. You're wondering whether or not he's going to get taken down. He's sort of flailing publicly. You're also kind of addicted to the news. You keep watching it

even though it's so miserable. It just makes you feel bad. I like a lot of our younger viewers will never no it's a very period it's like your president had a consensual affair with an adult actress shut up god knows what will have happened six months from now anyway right we'll found out that he like you know robbed fort knox or something what if it just comes out that he robbed Fort Knox or something. What if it just comes out that... That would be amazing. That'd be good. That'd be impressive. He'd be like, I wanted the money. And people would be like, well, he's looted the money.

I love the defense of him robbing Fort Knox. He needs the money. If he can get it, then that's on us. He owes all that money to all these lawsuits. How's he going to pay them off? He's got to rob Fort Knox. Here's a very serious question. Here's a very serious pay them off? He's got to route for it next. Here's a very serious question. Here's a very serious question, and we'll get back on subject with the movie.

This very serious question. I'm sure. How do you think the public would react if it turns out that Donald Trump drinks diarrhea? I don't know. Like every morning, he's like, can I have one cup of diarrhea, please? And he just sips it up and goes. I think they'd think that was weird. How?

I'm so glad you shit your pants. All right. All right. That's enough. That's enough of that. You goes I think they'd think that was weird I'm so glad you shit your pants alright that's enough that's enough of that you don't think they'd think it was weird yeah I guess so I checked out for this part so no no no don't pursue the bit this is a diarrhea man Ben you're in the bathroom you hit your head

oh I'm drunk it's diarrhea perlman so what's what's the like the real start of the movie. I'm trying to remember what the

opening couple of scenes I mean we have Joan Allen is at the book fair looking over this table of all these like new psychology books.

It's not really the start of that's where she meets Reverend Sexy Time. Reverend Henry Zerny. Henry Churny

however you say it. Yeah. Wait Henry Zerny. Henry Churney. However you say his name. Yeah. Wait, is that the beginning? I don't, I can't remember the exact beginning. I'm trying to remember the exact season. The opening of it is, is Toby and then,

he's, well, it starts with him at school. Oh, right. Yeah, him at school. And him with Katie Holmes. And Krumholtz. And Krumholtz is given a,

he's taken a bong rip with Krumholtz right and he's telling his close female friend his ducky yeah god I have such a crush on Libbits

and she's like don't tell your friend about it she's cool she's got like short red hair she's really cool who's she

I don't know she disappears from the movie Toby hang out with her she seems cool that's why I said she's the ducky you should realize

eventually but she's like first of all you're so cliched of course you have a crush on Libbits that's why I said she's the ducky she'll realize eventually but she's like first of all you're so cliched of course you have a crush on Libbets that's the least interesting thing you could possibly do this is Katie Holmes' first screen role is she already on Dawson's Creek at this point? no because I think that's 98

no it's 97 okay so Dawson's Creek has just launched she's launching her parallel film career mmhmm then I don't know

doesn't she play the exact same character in Wonder Boys I can't remember and the exact same character in Batman Begins I'm sorry Bartman Begins

the exact same character in The Gift well not but like you know she was no it is 98 you guys had me all worked up

yeah Dawson's Creek is 98 98? yeah 98 to 2003. Jeez. Was it a mid-season pickup? Let's find out.

Because I definitely watched it in seventh grade. January 20th, 1998. Wow. Okay. Good pull. No, so it was mid-season. You're right. Yeah.

On, you know, the WB. W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W-W hang out hang what? yeah I was gonna say hook up oh hook up okay likes okay fine okay yeah he also hears that she every year for Thanksgiving

so try to save time oh yeah we've saved so much time yeah let's make this a two-parter he hears that her P's I'm kidding

every year for TGs yeah Thanksgiving leave their apartment okay so Natoya Maguire goes okay I gotta get invited that her peas every year for TGs Yeah, Thanksgiving. leave their apartment. Okay. So, Natoya Maguire goes, okay, I gotta get invited over to that apartment. Gotta get into that apartment.

Yeah. Yeah. Gotta get in. I'm jonesing to get there. My favorite part of this whole intro part of him at school, which I also, like,

I think I thought that he was at college for the first couple times I watched it. I think I did, too. That's a good call. Because I was like, didn't I think I thought that he was at college for the first I did the first couple times I watched it I think I did too that's a good call because I was like what's boarding school yeah and he's like in a dorm and like he goes talks on the pay phone he's doing drugs like who does drugs when they're in high school unbelievable um kids these days Ben is raising his hand hey Ben what in the bathroom okay no but my favorite

part of this is when he gets the call from his dad and he has to use the phone out in the hallway and they have their little exchange

he talks to and then he talks to Christina Ricci Charles Charles Charles and Charles and then and then he gets

the phone he gets handed back to his dad and he's like I love you and then there's just that slightest of handed back to his dad. And he's like, I love you. And then there's just that slightest of glances over his shoulder to like two dudes we never even see. They never even come and focus. And he's just like, okay, bye.

It's like, you know that character. Seth. Yeah. Toby. Is Seth. Oh, Tobes. I like that his relationship with his sister is pretty solid. Yeah, it's such a breath of fresh air in the the middle of the film, when he comes back for Thanksgiving,

and they have their first scene face-to-face, you're like, oh my god, two people who actually kind of like each other. Amazing. Their initial dynamic where he's like, don't touch my shit, but immediately you realize, no, no, they're cool with each other. And even when he realizes she has touched his shit, he's just kind of like, oh boy. Yeah, you've been touching my shit, haven't you?

But why is he at boarding school and she's not? I think that was kind of a thing. I mean, he's just kind of like, oh, boy. Yeah, you've been touching my shit, haven't you? But, like, why is he at boarding school and she's not? I guess it's... I think that was kind of a thing. I mean, she's younger. I think it's like, maybe she'd be going a year from now. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Alright. So, he's gonna come home for Thanksgiving. There's an ice storm happening. And

Christina Ricci's making eyes at Elijah Wood in the playground. I mean, what else is going on? And Kevin Klein's having an affair with Sigourney Weaver. Right. Yeah. We're getting all of that. They have the dinner party at the Carver's. Where the kids are serving.

Where the kids are serving and drinking wine in the kitchen and then watching the parents from the weird dome sunroof. Yes, yes. This house is incredible. parents from the like the weird house is incredible yeah and and that's when the the idea of the key party is first brought up right you believe this nonsense yeah but also they're all talking about couples therapy it's a

given that all of them are in it and it's like the only thing we've ever thought about is whether or not to continue going to couples and Joan Allen does not find that funny yeah and then there's the the moment with Joan and Sigourney in the kitchen where she's like, don't touch

the dishes. Oh yeah. It's like, before you even find out about their affair, you're like, oh, they're having an affair. But yeah. Right. Joan Allen and Sigourney Weaver represent very different. They're both types. Right. They're both early 70s mom types right and it's

they're sort of women who grew up with confines around them socially they're pre-boomers these people they were probably born in like the 30s these guys in a culture where the walls are now being redefined and sigourney you get a sense feels a loss at the life she could have lived right where she born five years later. Sure. You know? What have you. That she now is stuck a little bit into a box. She also,

the way she's costumed is just absolutely incredible. She's so amazing. A total smoke show in this movie. And yeah, she's like, you know, somewhat liberated.

Right. But like performatively so. And also like the line that's so telling to me is when she catches christina ricci in uh the bathroom and she says you know a body is his temple and it's all about it's not that it's her son it's the idea that the male body is more of a thing than the female body you know oh i didn't know no no no she's talking about ricci's body yeah yeah your your body is a

temple and then she goes off on the like the thing about samoa or whatever which is one of the best moments it's the worst sex talk i've ever seen yeah yeah yes there are two really really bad sex talks oh my god klein sex talk yeah the self-abuse talk just like skip right to masturbation it's amazing i'm trying to find this so there's a part where she uses male pronouns sure well they say well she's she's talking about how that's why like when when young men are coming of age and underdeveloped countries like the samoa they send them out into the woods until they've learned a thing or two but she's definitely because what she has walked in on is Christina Ricci exposing herself. I mean, I guess the boy was sort of yelling.

His way of getting out of it. Why are you doing this to me? Right. But no, yes, she's got this sort of jumbled up literature in her brain that she sort of spews. But none of it really makes a lot of sense. They have a waterbed too, P.S. It's so good. Yeah.

but like none of it really makes a lot of sense. They have a waterbed too. It's so good. Now, Jonah Allen feels like she feels a little threatened by the fact that society is asking her to change. Well, yeah. I mean, well, you think about these characters and both of them, like this generation of parents

would have been like young parents and had kids and been kind of out of like definitively out of youth culture throughout the entire 60s but just out of it just on the other side of it so it's like now there's some kind of feeling of having missed out on something or feeling like yeah i don't know but that's the vibe yeah yeah and she uh you know she's she's looking at these books she doesn't even know what to make of these things. There's this modern... Feministique. Right, progressive pastor who's kind of given her eyes.

Oh, man. He's got a corduroy blazer. Right. And a turtleneck. Yep. The best look. But she's also like... I texted a picture of him to Emily Yoshida.

She's shoplifting... Shoplisting. She's shoplifting from pharmacies. There's this sense of, especially when I was like 13 and watching this, being like, why are these characters doing these things? It doesn't really make any sense. And Ang Lee

said his big into the movie was it's the notion of the culture shifted so much, the kids are now kind of acting like parents, the parents are now kind of acting like kids, and something is sort of cosmically wrong with all of them. But in a way that's so vague and nebulous, the only way to reset it and set it right

is for something horrible to happen. And it's like everyone is kind of just off their axis to some degree. Yeah. I kind of want to talk about that overall idea a little more at the end. Sure. I have opinions about that,

like a few of the things that don't work for me about the film. But yeah, think that that the sense of like discord or disarray or something is like very yeah and yet the kids are mimicking each other like i mean sorry i make mimicking their parents uh and like they're like um toby mcguire and kevin klein kind of behave in the same way in this movie yeah uh and i think that's intentional like there's a weird sort of like cosmic bond yeah yeah between mother and daughter and father and son yeah and rishi is kind of like

playing this very complicated game of like she at school wants to position herself as like the grand all-seeing sort of like uh she's been. Right, I know the story about everyone else, what they're doing wrong, what I'm doing right. But then it's like very sheepishly kind of roping Elijah Wood, who's someone who barely like acknowledges other human beings. He's so obsessed with the notion of the molecules floating around him. Yeah, Elijah, man. Yeah. Those eyes.

So he's like a child star too. I mean, like this is like a kid that that I like I saw Flipper in theaters. 100%. He's like an above the title kid. Huck Finn. Yeah. North. Yeah.

I was really taking there was a TV movie of Oliver Twist that he was. Yeah. Dodger in that. I was really into that. With Richard Dreyfuss. Dreyfuss. Yeah. He was vegan.

Who else is in that? I don't remember. I just remember Elijah Wood. But he's a big deal at this point. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, the next year is the faculty. Right.

And then... It's just bizarre also to think about, like with Ricci and Opposite of Sex, like faculty and this being... I don't know. Right, that he grows up kind of like all of a sudden. Very fast, yeah.

And then, of course, he goes off to New Zealand. But yeah, he was younger. What does he do in New Zealand? Vacation or something? Yeah, he was 15 when he made this movie. Okay. She kind of keeps on like very structured, like let's go hang out in this abandoned pool and kiss.

Yeah. That abandoned pool's kind of cool though. Yeah. Mood. That's sort of very like rigid, like we need to fool around with each other kind of cool though. Yeah. Mood. That's sort of very rigid, like we need to fool around with each other kind of thing. But I love that she sets her sights on the kid that everybody thinks is stoned.

That's so removed from the structure of masculinity that's beginning to be formed at the school. That's the only explanation. That's the one that I want. It's almost like he's like a cpr dummy yeah yeah he spaces out yeah yeah yeah yeah but it is just sort of like he's like a boy body yeah like she can like kind of manipulate him you know um and and then his younger brother as as elijah woodlayer says idolizes her yeah uh pretends to shoot his little army guy at her yeah i mean yeah everybody's

like a something in in training he's like a unabomber in training very much like he won't stop pulling a sid on all his toys yeah yeah he's blowing up his model planes right yeah kind of can't reconcile his own emotions i kind of like that scene though because it's like such a naked cry for help and his mother responds with like, what are you doing? Play with a whip instead. You're being weird. Does this whip blow up?

Sigourney Weaver's a bad mom. Yeah. I mean, she's not into it. Like you said, this is just not where she imagined, I think. And Jimmy Sherman is so physically out of the picture. There's that moment where he comes back and he's like, hey, I'm home.

And they're like, you were gone? Yeah, right. Yeah. Whereas, like, I feel like Ben and, you know, Kevin Kline and Joan Allen. Yeah. They're more like, why didn't this work? Yeah, yeah. This seems like it should have worked.

Yeah. We're both great. We're communicative. Like, we're not, you know, openly contemptful of each other. Like, yeah. They're pretty solid as parents all considering. They're not great as parents. They're not great, but they're at least trying to put forward the appearances of being good, which is something I guess.

Yeah, they're having the self-abuse talk, even if they're bad at it. But it's building up to, I mean, I guess they, S Client and Weaver have only slept together like two or three times. Is that right? I mean, there's that great, which is a classic. This is how you shoot unsatisfying sex. It's just all back. All male back. Yeah.

There's nothing worse than boy back. And then he starts like complaining about his golf buddies. She's just like, I already have a husband. I don't need another one it's like the coldest line reading ever yeah she's mean yeah

cause there's that and then her next thing is she's just like I gotta go put in my diaphragm I'll see you later and then just drives away

that's incredible she says let me go grab some birth control I know and then she hears the car yeah

and I just love him just like I guess I'll hang around this home for two hours i guess i'll like wobble on the waterbed yeah i mean it i mean i i think her character like this is why she's not my favorite performance in it is that it does feel a little bit easy like like woman who has been a mom and been like done all the suburban mom things and been a parent and whatever and even if she's bad at it, is, like, taking out her revenge on men by just being, like, the worst to Kevin Kline. And that feels, like, kind of, I mean, it's just convenient for the film.

It's just an easy line to draw. Right. Yeah, exactly. So she said, Ang Lee made them all write character biographies and Kevin Kline was like I'm not in fucking acting school anymore why do I gotta do this? What a jerk.

Right and she said that she went to him and very pointedly said I think this character Weaver? Are we talking about? Weaver went to Ang Lee

and was like I think the key to this character is the fact that we can't really figure her out. There is no cut and dry psychology and I don't really want to explore all of these things because I don't really want to explore all of these things because I don't think she has any sort of routine I think she's so displaced yeah I think there's

not logic behind her behavior I like that in that scene at uh when he confronts her at the key party it doesn't feel vindictive she's just like I don't know I had some errands to run yeah yeah like she's just so thoroughly like look I'm living in some weird life that would have been different if I was born ten years earlier or ten years later. I don't really know how to make do with what I got right now. Just let me do whatever the fuck I want. She's also just lonely. I mean, you can tell.

And the really profound thing, she says, they all talk about how they feel like Ang Lee weaponizes, and maybe this is something he learned doing Pride and Prejudice, because people still talk about this today. Sorry. Fuck, I keep on making that mistake. I would never keep those two.

I never read an Austin book in my life. Guess you guys ain't cultured like me. I didn't grow up and, never mind. Where did David grow up? Hey, David, how are you doing? I want to talk about a podcast that I'm a big fan of. I think you're a big fan of it, too. Okay, how are you doing? I want to talk about a podcast that I'm a big fan of.

Yeah? I think you're a big fan of it, too. Okay, who's the podcast? Well, it's Who Weekly. I'm asking you strongly, who is the podcast? Oh, wait a second. We're in trouble here. I barely even tracked.

You're right. Okay, so Who Weekly, it's a podcast about everything you need to know about the celebrities you don't. It's hosted by friends of the show, Lindsey Weber and Bobby Finger. Bobby Finger, people on Reddit were recently asking, why hasn't he come back? He's coming back soon. But if you need that finger fix, if you want to get fingered,

start listening to Who Weekly. That's right. He is the namesake of one of our best drops. Correct. Finger. You know, so this is, I've been obsessed with this podcast basically since it launched because it was one of those podcasts

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new girlfriend Nary Oxman they dig into all these sort of like quasi celebrities who you may not have heard of, but seem to be like living ridiculous lives. You haven't seen or heard any of their work. You're like, what are they famous for? I just don't,

I'm seeing their names a lot. Like, like Justin Bieber's marrying a Baldwin daughter, but it's not the Baldwin daughter. I knew it's like Steven Baldwin's daughter. Like everyone's saying this, like I'm supposed to know who she is. And I'm going who?

Weekly. So every episode goes deep into the biggest Who Leopardine stories of the moment. They have a call-in episode every week. You can call 619-WHO-THEM. And, you know, listener questions such as is Tessa Thompson a Who or a Them? I think she's Them. I think she's a Them. Who the hell is Maria Acton? And why is she in all of Kim Kardashian's Instagrams?

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Great show. The thing Lee would do that apparently he still does is weaponize his seeming lack of handle on the american on the english language yeah to say very like blunt blunt things yeah right and very profound things yeah i remember that that on the um i haven't seen the criterion dvd but i i remember that being a part of the doc on the featurette on the regular DVD. They say he's really expressive. The fact that he comes from an acting background is like he would sort of just take on the face or the body language of what the scene was supposed to feel like. Not what they were supposed to do, but the scene's kind of like this, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or he'd look at them and just say like one word. kind of like this, you know? Or he'd look at them and just say like one word and he said there's the moment when Sigourney Weaver comes back from the key party and you don't see what's happened between her and the kid and she comes back in on this weird kind of mopey walk

and she walks right up to the door where Christina Ricci and the young boy are and like walks up to it and then doesn't open it and peer in. And she said to Ang Lee, I really think I would look in there. I think as a mother, I would check to see if my kids were okay. And he said, no, no, no, too ashamed.

And she was like, I just trust him so fully at that point that I didn't fight back on it, even though I felt so fundamentally as a mother that I wouldn't do it. And I watch it now and it was so the right choice in a way I never would have been able to internalize. But there is something so profound there. You look at that moment where it's like a wide shot. She walks in very slowly. After seemingly getting the best guy from the pool, right?

And then just sort of almost puts her hand up to the door and just walks away. And it's like the entire notion of dealing with anything, there's too much shame. See, this is the thing. I don't love her being just ashamed of like bagging the hot guy from the party. Like, I feel like it's a little punishing. I don't think she's ashamed about that. She's definitely, yeah.

The movie punishes her a lot. I mean, it literally kills her. See, this is interesting. Yeah. Well, yes. It's the movie is punishes her a lot i mean it literally kills her see this is interesting yeah well yes it's the book that punishes her right yeah yeah yeah right but uh yes um but also i don't know i feel like he wants you to look at it in any way you want to look at it like yeah he talks about this movie as a painting that you can like approach from different angles and like he talked about how or i've i read something about how it was funnier like when they shot it like not fun but like that there's a funnier version of this movie that's maybe a little more heightened yeah and then he heard

the score right and he was like hmm interesting and like then as it came together in the editing room like they were like no no it's sad or sad sad so you know like or muted muted like yeah and it was also like there apparently this movie was two and a half hours for a long time and then it comes in at like 150 there are a lot of scenes which i haven't watched yeah it's also like in my head it span more time but it's just a weekend it's right it's just two days and the last half of the movie is just cutting between essentially three different environments in the same two-hour span. I want to say, getting to this idea of the movie being able to be viewed from different angles.

Emily seems to be eating like bird seed or something. I'm not sure what she's eating. Eating on mic though. I am. Hi, it's my eating on mic debut. Sigourney Weaver is the character I come out of this movie feeling worst for. I find her weirdly the most empathetic, especially her final moment where

she just kind of sadly curls up on the bed with a blanket. Right, well, with a blankie? With a blankie. I don't think that you don't feel bad for her, but I just question the impetus to make you feel bad for her, I guess, is what I'm saying. Sure, interesting. Like, I don't know. I mean,

you feel bad for her, because why? Because she has engaged in behavior that's, like, made her ashamed to confront her kids about. I don't know. I feel bad for her because she feels like a dramatically unfulfilled person. She feels like the loneliest character in the film to me. Yeah. And the one with the least sort of tangible options. But the movie does obviously end on the family and she's not there.

You know, so obviously there's a little more emotional fulfillment or story fulfillment at the end of the movie for the hoods. Yes. Whereas her last shot is essentially what you're talking about. I really could have done without the curling up into the fetal position shot. It's like really one of the only gripes I have really? yeah I think she just had a bad time with what's his pants

with her key guy oh oh cause it's the night of that it might have just been a bummer of an experience cause Jamie Sheridan has a bummer of an experience with Joe now well the the only isn't the curling up, the curling up is before Elijah Wood is brought back in.

Correct. Yes, yes, yes, yes. She's reacting to the key party. Yeah, it's reacting to the key party. Yeah. Which like, I don't know. If we're not going to see it, then like, we're just, I think that we're just led to believe that like she feels bad for sleeping around i guess so i mean it's just but she doesn't really feel bad for sleeping with klein yes yeah i don't think it's i don't know i know what emily's saying

though because it's it's mysterious in a way that other things in this movies are less mysterious yes like i don't think she's coming like it's like i mean it's like i feel like the movie is showing us that she's kind of making herself miserable in a way like with all the things that are supposed to like be liberating her which is like you can be said for a lot of the characters in the film but i think all of them pretty much yeah but for her i feel like she's the she's the most extreme end of this spectrum of like liberation and misery together. Right. Well, so I think the key party is that. Yes.

Right? It's like the key party is this like, hey, we figured it out. We've unlocked the mystery. Like, no, this is what we'll do, and we're all going to feel like, yeah. Yeah, right. They unlock the gates.

And no one has a good time at the key party. No. I know we're doing this movie completely out of order. Two days. I mean, yeah, we're doing this movie completely out of order, but one of them. Two days. I mean, yeah, we're fine.

We're fine. One of my favorite moments in this movie is when they actually do sit down to pick the keys and with our host, Allison Janney. Allison Janney. Also there is a, this time around, I noticed that there is a painting,

a portrait of Allison Janney hanging over the fireplace. And I was like, that's a, that's a prop to get the 70s style portrait of Allison Janney hanging over the fireplace and I was like, that's a prop to get. The 70s style portrait of Allison Janney from Ice Storm would be incredible. But when they sit down and it's really clear immediately

that nobody knows what they're doing. It's like, we've all read about this in Reader's Digest or whatever, but probably not Reader's Digest, but still. But, you know, what do we actually do? Now we're actually in the thing. in Reader's Digest or whatever, but we've... Probably not Reader's Digest, but still. What do we actually do? Now we're actually in the thing. It's real.

They try to decide the order and they keep on making jokes but they're not actually coming up with anything. Golf handicap. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's almost like us trying to start this podcast. Right, right.

Which we're still, I think, 30 minutes away from starting the episode. Funny. This is a good warm-up. This is a good warm-up. Yeah, from starting the episode this is a good warm up this is a good warm up no you're right this isn't like it's not like Allison Janney runs a weekly key party

I love she's perfect casting because she's so good at the maniacal grid of like put it in the bowl I guess she says something like new this week or something totally voluntary it's like a She says something like new this week or something. Totally voluntary. Totally voluntary. It's like a roast pig or something like that.

Are they all going to fuck in the cars? I think that's sort of the thing. Wouldn't you cancel this party for weather also? Yes, 100%. Good point. A car-based party? A car-based sex party. During an ice storm where everyone lives 15 million miles away from each other in the same town.

Is that the idea of a key party? Is that it has to be car keys? No. Because I thought it was... Yes, it has to be car keys. It has to be car keys. But you don't have to have sex in the car. You could, sure.

As far as I know. Right? You could go off somewhere. But the idea is you got kids. You want to bring them back to the home. That feels a little wonky. Wasn't there like a CBS... Swinger. Swingtown. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't there like a CBS Swing Town

oh right it wasn't called Key Party no it was called Swing Town wasn't that good but it was sort of like a third of the way to being interesting

you know what I mean and then obviously CBS had just watered it down so hard it was like 2009 like what if we try to do Mad Men yeah exactly oh we're still CBS

okay cool right right right which is Pan Am the Christina Ricci show was another version of the same was that the last thing that she did? No, she's...

The Beginning of Everything, which is also Zelda Fitzgerald. Right, right, right, right. The end of that series. Yeah. Amazon. I mean, great company. What a great title for a show

that's so memorable. Z colon The Beginning of Everything. Apart from that, I mean, I am looking at her and yeah, she's really struggled post Speed Racer. I feel... To like being in a movie that anyone would even see. I do too. I really... I mean, I am looking at her and yeah, she's really struggled post Speed Racer.

I feel like being in a movie that I would even see. I really somebody needs to revive her. She's so great. I also important. I don't say that she is important. I wonder what the deal is with her. I don't say this to be knowingly vague. She feels to me like someone who like the psychological strains of

being a child star caught up with her later she's given interviews to that effect especially with regard to like her body image and everything

and eating disorders and everything like that's definitely out there on the record I just like wish I just wish she'd have like a second wind take as long of a break

as she wants but like I really want more Christmas she makes movies. She was in the Hero of Color City, which we've talked about in this show before. She played Yellow. I can't believe Owen Wilson didn't play Yellow

in the Hero of Color City. Butterscotch Stallion. Remember she was in a Lizzie Borden TV show on Lifetime? It was like a movie that got spun off into a series, but that didn't take. And then, right, the TV show on Lifetime. It was like a movie that got spun off into a series, but that didn't take. And then, right, the Zelda show didn't take.

It was the beginning of everything. Yeah. I mean, I guess we should have known when David Hoffman was cast as F. Scott Fitzgerald that that might not be a hit. David Hoffman. She did two different. She did a Lisey Borden movie. It was a spinoff.

She was the voice of Vexie in the Smurfs, too. You forgot about that. Sure. So. So that was that's a key party. Well, yeah, I guess. So it's basically like the first day. You were going to explain to us how a key party works, David.

Oh, you were looking at the group sex wiki. Oh, I can go back to the group sex wiki. There's also a rainbow party, which is a baseless urban legend in which are you gonna describe this do you know what it is because i know what it is i want you to describe this i think i actually have heard of this as like a joke urban legendy thing like females but i'm quoting wikipedia wearing direct quote wearing various shades of lipstick take turns filleting males in sequence leaving multiple colors on their penises ignoring the obvious fact that you would just have like a

sort of dark purple sort of like be a fellatio sludge we're talking about a fellatio sludge they were covered on a fellatio sludge a classic fellatio sludge yeah there's also the classic bunga bunga orgy in which participants have sex underwater,

such as in a hot tub. That's like fake. Oh, wait, no, that was a... You're not going to read something? Well, it's just like a daisy chain, okay. But then just like bukkake is like a subsection of this. It's not really a group sex thing. It's just sort of like a... It's a pornisy chain. Okay. You know, but then just like Bukkake like is like a subsection of this. It's not really a group

sex thing. It's just sort of like a porn sex. Right. Phrase. Anyway, best enjoyed a large number.

All right. I don't know what you're I don't know what you're murmuring. I so I I feel like there's a whole because of the way that the

sex part or the key party rather is staged. It's like it's kind whole, because of the way that the sex part, or the key party rather, is staged. It's like, it's kind of adding to this idea that this isn't necessarily just a film about this craze that swept suburbia, swept wealthy suburbia, and nobody knew what to make of it. It's also just about the basic thing of a thing you've read about that you think everybody else is doing. Yes. a thing you've read about that you think everybody else is doing yes and you internalize it and immediately feel like you're weird for not doing it when in fact nobody's doing it which like could be any number of things because the beginning of the movie when they're talking about it's like that's like a west coast thing right it's a weird west coast thing and then they get to this scene

and klein and alan are both like uh yeah go check our car i think we left our keys in there right but alan has just put together the affair because. Well, she really puts it together once he tumbles over and hits his head on the. But yeah, she knows he's having an affair. She just doesn't know with who. Right. But also. Oh, she knows.

No, she knows. That we're in the basement. Because she was in the basement. You're right. You're right. Well, whatever. I mean, it just feels. Her final choice is made when he makes the fuss over Sigourney Weaver getting the hot guy.

No, no, no. I think she, her, because her choice to go to the party is after she knows, he admits that they were having an affair in so many words. Like his apology is something like, or he doesn't even actually admit it. All he says is I don't feel good about it. Like I remember that line. And it's not exactly what you think it is. Yeah. It says something like that.

Yeah. But she just kind of keeps on doubling down. Like there's an out for her to not go to the party, she doubles down. There's an out for her to not get involved with the key party, she doubles down. And you get the sense that on any other night if they walked in, even with all the problems that they would have been having. They would just laugh about it and leave. Laugh and leave, yeah. But this is like the one night where it hasn't ended into their relationship.

And it's like the ice storm is like a metaphor. Almost like it's a metaphor. Oh my god. Molecules. Molecules. Wow. There's the moment I love. I mean there's the two things I love at the key party. The red herring of the guy from the office who Kevin Kline is like 100%

sure is gonna sleep with his wife. He's shown up solo. Oh, yeah. No, that might be Henry Zerny, actually. I think that's Henry Zerny. A weirdly high-billed Henry Zerny, which feels like a red herring billing. Right.

They want you to think that he... I think they just billed the kids low because they were kids. Because the guy who plays the father is a Clumpsy or something. Yeah, Michael Clumpsy. Clumpsy. Clumpsy. But I like that red herring. Klein is just side-eyeing him and then has that

chuckle when he pulls someone else in the key party bowl. But then also the father coming and Joan Allen's like, what are you doing here? And he's like, well, sometimes a father has to tend to his flock if you catch what I mean. I'm going to choose to believe. She's like, I'm going to choose to believe.

She's like, I'm going to choose not to understand what you mean. Right, and then he just looks really sad. He walks out, and the final indignity is, like, as he pulls his own keys out of the bowl, the other guys are like, I hope he didn't pull my keys. And that's just it. It's just, here's this sad man going to drive home alone in an ice storm. Yeah. No, drive home alone in an ice storm. Yeah.

No, everybody is so sad. Also, the co-worker does not just pick any other keys. He picks the fat lady's keys. Yeah. Oh, my. And all the boys are like, you know, sort of side-eyeing each other. Like, wait a second. Yeah, it's real.

Everybody's on their worst behavior. Also, he's the one who's like, because the woman comes in with her son, and he's like, I wish some of the guys would have brought their daughters. And then Kevin Kline looks at you and wants to vomit on cue. Yeah, it's real sad and gross. Yeah, Kline is slightly

elevated in this scenario, actually. Just very slightly. You can see the sort of panic rising in him a little bit. Then he just gets wasted and hits his head on the side of a table. Right. Meanwhile,

Richie's gone over. You assume they sort of misdirect you to think that she's gone over to see Elijah Wood. I think she is. We've already had, right,

so she makes out with Elijah Wood in a swimming pool. They have their phone conversation. And then they go, they're watching TV and when she goes to the bathroom, she has the I'll show you mine if you show me yours

scene with the younger son. Elijah Woods was like I'm never going to talk to you again. Right yeah he bikes up to her and he bikes away. And then immediately on Thanksgiving they hang out again and that's when Kevin Kline discovers them in the basement. Right and so she puts on the Nixon mask and lets him sort of dry hump

her essentially. Yeah. And then there's the great line. So they said in the basement. Right. And so she puts on the Nixon mask and lets him sort of dry hump her, essentially. Yeah. Yes. And then there's like. The great line. So they said in the script. Uh-huh. It was supposed to be that Kevin Kline carried her the same way he would carry Elijah Wood at the end of the film.

Oh, okay. And we wanted like a very literal sort of mirroring of that image. Uh-huh. He's trying to get into your slacks. Yes. Kevin Kline had thrown his back out like the day before sure and he was like is there another way we can do it so they came up with the thing where it's like a forward piggyback right which is such a beautiful moment because it's like it's very

like babyish and he's trying to explain to her like i i don't really i'm not angry at you I just need you to know that these are serious things like I'm not judging you but we can't be flipping about these things and then she sort of just crumbles into being a small child that he like holds in his arms that moment is really really really great

yeah yeah I mean it's so funny to me that all the parents are like that Mikey kid he's bad news but he's just like

he's so sweet he's just adorable he's just weird so they're freaked out by him he's a weirdo with perfect bone structure I think they think he's on drugs yeah everybody thinks

he's on drugs but he's just like a little you know he's like probably a little spectrumy yeah and he's totally like

like junior high age Emily. This is like my archetype of the dreamiest boy. This would have been. He's completely out to lunch. Also, we could talk about how these characters are just the younger versions of Thor, Birch, and Wes Bentley in American Beauty. Thor, Birch, and Christina Ricci were very much in the same, like, Venn diagram. Well, Christina Ricci was supposed to do Ghost World. Yes.

And that sort of feels like a moment that, like, there's an alternate timeline. But then what's the timeline? Because it didn't really pan out for Thora Birch either. With Thora Birch, there's a very identifiable problem in her career. Yes, yes. Her parents? Her dad, specifically. Yes. Yes. Her parents. Her dad. Right. But but still, it's like that type of girl. There are just like these unhappy accidents slash maybe it was just never meant to really carry through into the odds that strongly like this kind of sardonic, not traditionally beautiful or cute girl who's like, you know, usually the smartest child, if not person in the room room. And it just has a dark sensibility.

The movie that broke Ricci was Prozac Nation, weirdly, right? That was the movie where everyone was like, well, that's going to come out and that's going to be a big deal because that book was a big deal. And she was producing it. It was on the shelf for years. She was fighting with Miramax. There is something kind of weird to actually viewing Ghost World

as a handshake movie where it's like okay this is the year 2001 that sort of archetype of the teen girl is going out the window and is being replaced by Scarlett Johansson see you later in the rear view that's a good point very fateful moment and she becomes the thing

that everyone copies I don't know I mean it's too bad. Yeah. But Johansson does become kind of the type for the new teen ingenue in the 2000s. Yeah. Like, who's Christina Ricci now? There is no Christina Ricci now, right?

Well, is, like, Hailee Steinfeld the closest we're getting? Like, what are we talking about here? No, I think the— No, I don't think there is one. There isn't. Yeah, there isn't somebody that is so big. I mean, they're probably on TV if there is a person. Right, is it like Jane Levy?

Jane Levy, but like, yeah. I mean, she's cool, but I mean, you know. She is, but she's just, I think she's too much. Like, there is a certain part where it's like, if you are just like a cute girl, though, like if you can be written off by any idiot director at any point in your career as just a cute girl, then it doesn't work.

And that's actually why it's hard for, I don't know, somebody who's less, I don't know. It's, it's, it's like the, the true alternative girl.

The idea of having a sort of like avatar on screen for weird 15 year olds. What about Aubrey Plaza? Oh boy. You're probably right. Opening up a can of worms. Well, also she's probably, she, she more hit once she was in her twenties. Like. Opening up a can of worms. That's probably... She more hit once she was in her 20s.

She never had a teen. But that sucks. Yeah, she kind of is... She's Christina Ricci stripped of dimensions. It's like a greatly reduced sort of one dimension. Tumblr Christina Ricci.

It's a Tumblr of Christina Ricci. God, this is making melr Christina Ricci she's like a it's a Tumblr of Christina Ricci god this is making me miss Christina Ricci well you can always watch The Ice Storm or Ang Lee's 1997 masterpiece Z the beginning of

everything I mean let's talk about sort of the culmination of all this I guess the worst sex scene of all time between Jamie Sheridan and Joan Allen

in the car right so right and the second night is I guess it's Thanksgiving night. No, it's Friday night. It's the Friday after Thanksgiving. Because we see their little Thanksgiving. Because Paul goes back to New York on the day after Thanksgiving,

but is going to come back for the rest of the weekend. Right. He's just going to go up for the night to, like, have his date with Libbets. And who's there, of course? He got crummed. He got crummed. He got holst. He got holst. He got holst.

I mean, I want to point out. Holst by his own petard. I want to point out that Krumholtz's character is called Francis Davenport. No, he isn't. Which is like the worst match for a Krumholtz ever. He is not. I also love, like, oh, he's so obnoxious in this movie. He is.

I love how he's like, when he, the way he gets, he gets Toby to go get beer for them is like, mead, mead, we must have more. It's like when he the way he gets he gets toby to go get beer for them is like mead mead we must have i was like fuck you fucking nerds the worst and yet somehow he gets every girl it's so amazing and i feel like that is like one of these things that only works i imagine only works in boarding school when like you literally can't escape you're like i guess this guy has confidence this notion of this guy acts like he's really smart I guess I have to impress him right there's

this weird sort of gaslighting remember it's high school right like these are teenagers like yeah yeah McGuire finds her essentially roofies crumb holds to get him out of the way it's a real flim flam is like forced into

roofing exactly but they're all like hey yeah medication pharmaceuticals yeah yeah i mean so this whole it's sort of funny because for the being the person who opens and closes the film toby mcguire is not actually in this movie and he's he's absent. And he's absent for the most key part, so to speak, of this movie. And it almost feels like, it feels like this sort of science experiment and he's like the control in it. He's the person who gets taken out of this pot of boiling water.

He's the onlooker in a way, too. Or not boiling water. Yeah, I don't know. My metaphors are all messed up right now. Yes, chemistry. He's out of the petri dish it's not a lot of the film but it does like this section hits me super hard because a lot of high school who griffin was being the one sober part person at a party where everyone

else is like it wasn't often like three people and two people are asleep right like this is an extreme version of it but a lot of it was like I want to go to this party and talk to that girl I'm in love with who I sit next to in science class. And then everyone was just stoned out of their gourd

and I was like sitting there drinking a Sprite. Manhattan kid, baby. Yeah. All those kids are on drugs from the age of 12. I know. And I was terrified

of everything. Right. Z. Yeah. I was getting high on Criterion DVDs. I don't know. Reading baby books. I was't know. Reading baby books.

I was doing both. Give me those Criterions and those lewds. You are pre-basing commentary tracks. Yeah. Well, the other thing is that like, I feel like everybody, well, okay, so I guess Mikey in a way and his like sliding down the ice

like going into winter way and Paul Toby's character I mean they both kind of opt out in their ways from like the turmoil that everybody else is kind of swept up in during the storm and one of them

dies and one of them dies and one of them doesn't uh and i feel like i don't know it's it's i mean this is the part that ends up sounding like annihilation when i wrote about it to get into college because it is like this total um like either being attracted to or like if you think about if you think about the ice storm being the shimmer yeah here we go we're doing this then it's like you're either you're either you can't be at the border of it you either go in or you go out and and i feel like mikey elijah wood's character is the one who like goes in and it's just like i'm gonna go just like trip out on geometry and molecules and stuff and it

kind of feels like he's a sacrifice yeah he is a sacrifice. Yeah, he is a sacrifice for sure. He's a sacrifice for his family, for the community, for everything. Paul is, yeah, again he's like a control not to make a reference to the second book in that series, but he's outside of this thing that just sort of twists and warps

everything and everybody else is sort of on the periphery where you actually like have the least clarity at all. It's like you either go all the way into the lighthouse or you like, yeah. The boarding school gives him the perspective that the others lack. He's outside of this bubble. The shimmer. Yeah. Also as he

goes through it, his train is like stopped and shut down. It's like it's crossing some sort of border and then it reactivates and it's like connectica is going into the negative zone. Well it feels like he's like time travels crossing some sort of border and then it reactivates and it's like connectica is going into the negative zone well it feels like he's like time travels in that because of the way the guy is talking it's like going back in time to go back home or something

that's also very fantastic for yeah the friend that we were watching it with who had never seen it before thought that the train stopped because of Elijah Wood specifically oh because there's like a power interruption? I always thought that was the case. Interesting. I never put that together, but

I guess that makes a sort of sense. It could be. I don't think it really changes anything that much, but it's sort of interesting. I mean, I think rather, I think the same the downed power line that kills Elijah Wood is also the same thing that stops the train.

Not that Elijah Wood's death is responsible for the train stopping. No, I get you. It's one sort of... Right. Poor Elijah sits on a goddamn... I've always been... Ever since I was scared of those guardrails. Yeah.

Those metal guardrails. Those things will kill you. Seriously. Sits on it, just gets zapped and dies. And he sees it's going to happen. He does. Yeah. And he's just got this total look of wonder over his face,

much like Natalie Portman at the end of Annihilation. Yeah, I mean, I also feel this very strong because I, especially once we moved to Iowa, and snow was like kind of a rarity for me, I would always be like, it's snowing, or like the world is uninhabitable right now. I want to go out as far as I can into it and like see how long I can make it until I have

to come back and I totally like see the like like I feel like now watching I'm like I would stay in and I would watch Netflix but uh but but I totally remember a time when I would be like yes I'm gonna put on every single piece of clothing I own and like run out into it uh I love this movie I hadn't

seen it probably in at least five years, if not more. But I've been like, spent a lot of time recently working on a script that is mostly like a Snow Woods movie. And I kept on like trying to like find ways to get down on paper the sort of like feeling I had. And I realized a lot of it came from,

if not like specifically this movie, the way this movie is able to sort of evoke that feeling of being in a somewhat secluded area that is both kind of like idyllic and creepy. When it's that cold, the feeling of like, I feel like even just, we talked about the sound design when it comes to like the ice and the steps and all that sort of stuff.

But even just their breaths, you know, the clothing they're wearing at all times, even when they're indoors, the amount of sweaters they have on and stuff. This movie just feels like how that type of temperature takes its toll on your psychology. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And the and another really pointed thing about this being set where it is and I guess in New Canaan when where this is like

how the houses are they're all in these they're like spread out like it's not a neighborhood it's only as modern houses that were built in the 40s

and 50s and so it's almost yeah you're like in this kind of you're not in a neighborhood it's not like a suburban block like I feel like this movie would have felt a lot more

on the nose if it did take place on what we would recognize as being a cul-de-sac yeah like a suburban block. I feel like this movie would have felt a lot more on the nose if it did take place on what we would recognize as being a cul-de-sac. Yeah, like a cul-de-sac or something. But it's like you're almost in outer space because there's all this blank space and forest in between all these houses. They're all kind of spread out. There's no sense of connection.

This movie is about how it's easy to draw connections between events, celestial and personal, that might not exist and you might be just sort of imagining. I'm good to spread this very poorly. Great. But there's I think it's when Kevin Kline's giving the world's worst birds and the bees talk

and they're driving and through the windows Is his birds and the bees talk just it's fine to jerk off? Is that the whole talk? No he starts to talk about like you might be having feelings and he can't really get to it and then he skips straight to like well on the topic of self-abuse don't do the shower yeah no that that's the talk right he's like just don't jerk off in the shower because we expect you to and it wastes water and it wastes water and also stay away from linens yeah it's incredible it's great and then yeah and then it ends with him asking him to forget that they ever had a

relationship. Right. Exactly. And Toby's just like, dad, I don't need to. Toby's so squeaky in this movie. Yeah. But when they're driving in the background, it's sort of like they're on one of these like long, endless roads where there's just nothing.

It's like copy pasting of the same line of trees over and over again. Right. And then the other thing is that kind of low rock wall. Do you know what I'm talking about? Uh-huh. Oh, you mean like- Like on the sides of the road. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's like, then there's like a raised kind of like slope up into- Right. But like sort of a very carefully placed low rock wall of about like six to eight inches. And my parents, my paternal grandparents lived in White Plains, New York, and we'd go up there a lot.

And that's always what I like think about, especially if we went up there for the weekend, which I would hate because I'd want to be in New York on the weekends. And we'd be driving back like Sunday night. I'd be bummed out knowing that as soon as we got home, I'd have to do homework. Like I was super depressed and it's January and you're driving past those like lines of identical trees and those rock walls. And it just feels like everything's so far apart. Yeah.

Like you're not seeing any life. Yeah, you don't see people walking around. Yeah. Yeah, there's no sense of a town or a community or connections. None of that.

Merchandise spotlight. What's the merchandise spotlight? I mean, this had a big PS1 game. You don't remember? There's no spotlight. Will you reach some sort of profound emotional like realization that causes you to cry in your car in front of your family what if there was

like an ice storm puzzle quest where you just had to match up the blocks of ice there was some cell phone game that was weirdly huge what if there was an ice storm mystery dinner oh that sounds good but that just sounds like a key part. That's the trick. Right, right. It's a mystery dinner. Who will you fuck? It's going to be unfulfilling. Watching this movie. Jamie Sheridan literally is like, that was terrible.

The moment that kills me in his performance is when he sees Elijah Wood, he's kind of just stunned silent. And then when he, you're like, why isn't he crying yet? He's clearly taking the time to process it. When he reaches down to, he's kind of just stunned silent. And then when he, you're like, why isn't he crying yet? He's clearly taking the time to process it. When he reaches down to grab him, the physical strain of lifting him up turns into crying. He's got this one seamless moment where it's like his face turns red as he's trying to summon the courage.

And then he just loses it. He is the only person in that scene who doesn't I think also this is my other gripe with the film and I guess with the direction that doesn't work for me it's one of but it's like totally in keeping with the era everybody underplaying a child's death there are so many movies where a child dies

and everybody's just like gazing yeah I agree with that and it's like no you'd be losing your shit right now. This would be the most horrific thing you've ever seen. I never buy that. I agree with that. Obviously the movie is entering a sort of hyper real realm at that point, but yes.

I think my problem with this movie as a kid was it ended so insanely because you don't see that coming, obviously. That it freaked me out too much. And I thought this was like too dark like too miserable or something like you know uh i was wrong i saw it this time and i was like if a movie unsettles me this much that means that it's doing something right because it unsettles me still to watch this movie yeah i want to read this angley quote to you guys okay it's from the preface of his screenplay when i think of the

ice storm i think first of water and rain how it falls everywhere seeps into everything forms underground rivers and helps shape a landscape and how it forms a reflective surface like glass in which the world reappears then as the temperature drops what was water freezes its structure can push iron away. It's so strong. Its pattern overthrows everything. I love that. I thought that matches your Annihilation stuff.

I love him. He's great. That's why this movie is good. Who the fuck else is going to think about the actual earth on which the characters are walking as being a character in that way? I think, yes, most directors would not have approached the book this way. Yeah, no, it's incredible. They would have seen a comedy of 70s mores gone wrong. This is like a story of elements, like a literal story of elements, and that's incredible.

I love that. incredible. I love that. Kevin Kline also said that whenever he walked by set, Ang Lee would just be sitting there staring at things, thinking about things. That he was never doing anything else other than looking around the set as it was being

prepped and lit and trying to find things that spoke to him. It doesn't feel like it's a movie that's very reserved. There's even, like, when he does the hard, like, camera move

down to the bowl with the keys in it, it's, like, jarring because he's been so restrained cinematically up until that point. That is a very memorable move. But it's just a movie

that's got, like, such a kind of fucking mise-en-scene to it. But just this sort of, like, observation, the level of detail in sort of the emotional tapestry of it feels very

attuned. Yes. I think it's very interesting that Ang Lee made two movies in a row about America at a crisis point that are both about outsiders looking in on something that they think they understand and then they don't, like this and Ride With The Devil, that both start to be acquired.

I think it's a very funny little mini-phase in his career. And we'll talk and Ride With The Devil that both start to be McGuire. Yep. I think it's very a very funny little mini phase in his career. Yeah. And we'll talk about Ride With The Devil next week. Yeah. This movie does make me wish

that he had gotten the chance to make a sad Fantastic Four movie. Sure. Why not? Yeah. That's what bums me out about the eventual fucking MCU

Fantastic Four we're going to get is they're just going to make it part of the whole fucking thing and I think the Fantastic Four kind of needs space to be totally isolated so that it can be

about the family but we've never talked about the Fantastic Four on this podcast before I will say Franklin Richards as a kid was a character

that really fascinated me where like the parents had this child that's so powerful because their kid in the comics has powers better than them that they don't understand

how to deal with him and it is such a perfect like 70s comic book uh metaphor for what's going on where they're like he he's he can like astrally project yeah like he can reshape reality what do we do and then they put like dampeners in his brain so he can't use his powers yeah and it is just just a lot of great metaphors and then in the 90s when everything goes wild Franklin Richards creates a whole universe in a ball Valeria

yep nerds anyway the box office game let's talk about it guys let's talk about September 26, 1997 okay

I'm missing my screening you're gonna be fine when is it? 6? 6 p.m. oh boy what is it of? you were never really here oh I'm just saying What is it of? You were never really here.

Oh. I'm just saying that to you. No. And you were never really RCP. Well, you know what? We're basically done. I mean, I think you could be five minutes late. I've already seen it.

Yeah, exactly. All right. Number one at the box office was an action movie starring like a TV star. It was like his first play for action movie stardom. Hmm. The Peacemaker? The Peacemaker. Starring George Clooney

and Nicole Kidman. Yes. I don't even remember. It's a Mimi leader film. It's directed by Mimi leader. It was the first DreamWorks movie. That's why it's notable.

Oh, yeah. $12 million opening weekend. It makes 41. It was kind of a bomb. Yeah. Because everyone was like, here we go new movie star new studio new big director it's the same year as badman and robin yeah yeah all right so

that's that number two is a movie starring one of the stars of the ice storm i saw in theaters with my mom is it in and out yes with kevin klein this is his last good year. Yeah. He doesn't make any good movies after this. I mean, unless you're kind of like Da Lovely. Well, that film is Da Lovely.

It's Da Okay. He was in the star-studded Midsummer Night's Dream. He was with Calista Flockhart, which I saw in theaters because I loved Calista Flockhart. See, I owned it

because I was in a Midsummer Night's Dream. Sure. I I was in a Midsummer Night's Dream sure I was also in a Midsummer Night's Dream in the 8th grade I was Puck see I never got to do it

who are you? I don't want to talk about that what? I'm a fucking fairy oh boy our drama teacher hated us and my summer Shakespeare program

I can't explain it I got I got continually shafted I'd won a high school monologue competition with a Helena monologue that year.

What? I was known in the state of Iowa as Best Helena and did not get cast as Helena in our local community theater. That feels like an axe. This is like fucking My Fair Lady Julie Andrews shit. I want to dig into this. I still hold a grudge. So we'll do a bonus episode.

I never got to do Midsommar's. That was like the one Shakespeare I always really liked. So my mom was like, you like this one, right? Yeah, because it's fantasy. And it's fun. My favorite thing about a Midsommar night's dream is that it's the only Shakespeare play not based on anything. Yeah. So Shakespeare finally sat down.

He's like, let me do an original story. So there's some actors there's a fairy kingdom as we all know and uh my school was so pretentious the only Shakespeare I got to do

was Twelfth Night we did Twelfth Night but it was restaged in a depression era circus oh my god sure circus

yeah okay uh number Lisa threw spears in my school you're just talking about like after school activities no that was school yeah that was that was the cafeteria school was here is your spear you handed it you had to shake the spear

first you had to get no you had to get the spear out of a trash fire first from the cornucopia the trash canucopia. All right. Number three is a Thanksgiving movie which is... Oh, no, no. It's not a Thanksgiving movie.

What? Is it a Christmas film? No, it's a food movie. It's a... A food movie, but it's not about the Thanksgiving. Well, it's very interesting.

I want to triple check this, but I'm almost certain that it is a remake of an Ang Lee movie. Well, it's not Tortilla Soup. So it's not a remake. That's the one I'm thinking of. Tortilla Soup's the one that's the remake of Eat, Drink, Man, Woman. Okay. So it's just

an ensemble film about cooking. And like family drama. It's an ensemble film about cooking and family drama. Yeah. I think we talked about it on the Eat, Drink, Man, Woman Drink Man We were talking about our favorite food movies There's a lot in that era

Exactly because there's What's Cooking The Gurren Dachada movie and there's Tortilla Soup But then there's also this one It's not Big Night Great movie Does it have a big star in it? It has an Oscar nominee I think No it doesn't really have a big star

It's an ensemble picture Oh very much so No it doesn't really have a big star. It's an ensemble-y picture. Oh, very much so. No, it doesn't even have an Oscar nominee. What kind of director are we talking about here? Anonymous? Not that well-known, yeah. He's made some movies. Oh, he produced a lot of big movies.

Interesting. The director's not going to help you on this one. Is it John Avnet? No. It's a black movie. Oh, Soul Food? Oh, well, there you go. Yeah, you got it.

I mean, I was running out of clues I could give you. There we go. Have you seen Soul Food? No, I haven't. It's a good movie. Who directed that one? George Tillman Jr. Ah.

He was like, you know, he made Men of Honor, right? Yes, Tillman Jr. Ah. He was like, you know, he like made Men of Honor, right? Tillman Jr. Yes. All right. Number four is an underrated action thriller set in the wild of the era. Set in the wild? Set in the wilds. Like the jungles you're talking about?

No. The forest? Sure. It's cold. It's a cold movie? Yeah. From 1997? Yeah. Big action star? Yeah. From 1997? Yeah.

Big action star? Yeah. No, not a big action star. Big-ish star. It's got the same name as a famous guitarist. The Edge. It's a good movie. Yeah. Lee Tamahori.

Yeah. What if I come up with a funnier joke for that? I don't know. If I said like Richie Sambora? Number five is going to be the best episode of a possible upcoming series depending on how the bracket goes. Number five? Yeah.

It's a film from a very famous director. The Parent Trap? No. And I think it would be the most interesting episode of that miniseries. Of his miniseries. 1997. Yeah. You're saying Possible's in... One of the winners. Like, one of the final four.

It's one of the people who's in the final four? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bay Pig in the City? No. One of the stars is very funny. We were just talking about it. Very funny? That's a confusing... You're not gonna get that clue. No. America's number one humorist, Sean Penn? Yes.

Bingo. So what's the movie? the movie oh god i'm trying to remember there were so many pen comedies around that well so he he didn't do liar liar he let carrie take that one he's a supporting character in this movie not the lead character in 1997 yuckster uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And it's a director we would cover. Yeah. It's not a Michael Mann? No. Other one.

Oh, oh, oh. It's The Game. It's The Game. David Fincher's The Game. Which, $5 million. Are you game? Sure. That was the Jumanji's house. I love that movie.

We're going to go see Ready Player One tomorrow and that's the end of the episode Emily thank you for joining us thank you for having me Ready Player One is fine great can't wait to see it can't wait for this hot take to come out in July it's okay C plus

on a scale from Ready Player One to Ready Player Ten what would you give it give it a ready player 2 really that's not so good that doesn't sound fine no I

you know it's it's like a ready player 5 this is the thing this is you were saying something to this effect before anybody had seen it

at South by David it you tweeted this it it's not going to not work it's a Spielberg movie like it's not going to not work it's a spielberg movie like it's not going to be incompetent it's going to take you from the beginning to end and you're going to feel satisfied by the story but it's also not starship troopers it's no starship troopers yeah exactly

and that is a bummer that's a bummer it's too bad and i never read the book so i didn't even know like what it could necessarily change i've been told that it's a major improvement on the book, but I've also been told that's a huge low bar. Yeah. We can talk more about this off podcast. There was one thing I was like shocked by that apparently is just from the book. Also, we'll talk more about this four months earlier in the episode that you've already listened to.

Emily, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me again. Six times. Close. You get a pen this time. Come and get me, Lawson. Night Call.

Night Call. Right here in the Audio Boom Network. Produced by the producer, Ben. BH. Mr. Oz. Yeah. Listen to us. We'll still be making our podcast.

It's an amazing podcast. It's one of the few podcasts where I have to listen right when I download. If you like cults and aliens, listen to us. We'll still be making our podcast. It's an amazing podcast. It's actually it's one of the few podcasts where I have to listen right when I download. If you like cults and aliens listen to our show. And also thank you.

And ghost stories. Stuff that we were talking about today your piece on annihilation is one of the best pieces of film writing. I've read all year. Emily's great. People should Google that.

Sure. And also everything else you write. She's also a nice friend. And that's her number one credit. I like getting dinner with her sometimes and catching up. At the end of the day, you're a quality person. But only at the end of the day.

At the beginning of the day, you're a mess. Get away! But at the end of the day, I go, I'm always a quality person. Thank you, guys. It's been fun as always. A real knight among dragons. Thank the people. Hey, look, It's been fun as always. A real night among dragons.

Thank the people. Hey look here's what I gotta thank Andrew Guto for our social media Joe Bone Pat Rounds for our artwork

Lane Montgomery for our theme song go to blankiestyreddit.com for some real nerdy shit. Yep. And as always.

Yes. Next week tune in for Ride with the Devil with peter labusa that's right and as always i'm very sorry to inform you that emily was not able to retrieve her school paper written on the ice storm because there's a great track record of school papers being read on this podcast