Blank Check with Griffin & David - The Keep with Alex Ross Perry

Episode Date: May 26, 2019

Alex Ross Perry (Her Smell) returns to Blank Check to discuss 1983's The Keep. But is this technically a movie? Why is there an extended tangent about the TV show Bones? Is there a movie where anyone eats pizza before E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial? Together they discuss the Mount Rushmore of 1980s: Verhoeven, Schrader, De Palma and Friedkin, the creator of the Moviefone and also talk about The Keep.

They were all drawn to the podcast. The soldiers who brought death. The father and daughter fighting for life. The people who have always feared it. And the one man who knows its secret. Tonight, they will all face the podcast. So you're just doing the poster. Look how much fucking tagline there is on this poster.

It's a hefty tagline. With a tiny little tagline at the bottom. Right. so that's why i did the double podcast because i felt like i have to read all three of these there's like all caps tagline at the top then a fucking paragraph text block then a little tagline at the bottom so i was like let's let's work to to podcast they're doing anything they can to get people to care about this movie by the time that poster is being designed. I mean, what also an obtuse bunch of words on that poster. Yeah, let me look at this again.

They were all drawn to the keep. The soldiers who fought death, the father and daughter fighting for life, the people who have always feared it, and the one man who knew its secret. Tonight, they will all face the evil. I mean, you know. That kind of makes it sound like a fairly normal monster movie, right? I mean, it is accurate, like, largely. Yeah.

You know, it's basically telling you what's the plot. The IMDb quotes page is weirdly stacked. I know, but I'm not going to read any of those. I mean, what? I mean, they're not, right, they're not, like, good quotes, but they're there. Right, but considering, like, what was the movie we covered, The Holiday, where it had, like like zero quotes on the page or something the holiday one of the nancy myers movies it wasn't the holiday but one of the nancy myers movies we were befuddled that it truly did not have a quotes page oh it was home again home again sure right uh uh one of the hallie shire myers right uh movies but uh the

fucking uh the keep uh imdb quotes page is just essentially a fucking full transcript of the script. Sure. Full dialogue. And what truth do you see? What are you discovering about yourself, Camfer, huh? I murder all these people, therefore I must be powerful. And you smash them down only because that raises you. I mean, this goes on for sentences.

Yeah, it's a lot. A lot. Michael Mann just sat down and wrote all that. Yeah, well, he wrote three times that. Yeah, it's a lot. A lot. Michael Mann just sat down and wrote all that. Yeah, well, he wrote three times that. Yeah, sure. That's the crazy thing. Did you, I was like digging into this. It's like, man, it's so weird. This feels like such a first movie. Yeah. This kind

of like horror movie that doesn't really like come together, that doesn't have any clarity of vision or purpose in the way the thief did. And it's weird for him to make like a 95-minute movie because that's so unlike him. And then you find out he delivered a 210-minute movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, cool, threw half of it out, released it in theaters, and he disowned it.

I never, ever believe things like that when I read them. Right, right. There is no such thing as a 210-minute cut of a movie. That like Hollywood would ever release. Unless there's like an interview. You think that was like his assembly. You don't think he was presenting that as a formal cut. I think you see statistics like that.

I made one movie before. Remember I made Thief. Anyway, you got to release this thing. It's four hours long. You see statistics like that entirely too often. Sure. And it's always some staggering number. And unless there's a very clear source on that right where it's like yes the

script was 300 pages long yeah they greenlit that and then the cut was the right length of time and they butchered it yeah like once upon a time in america but when you hear something like that for this and like you look on wikipedia and every citation of it just goes to the same thing. Uh-huh. How can there be a 210-minute well-edited, well-paced cut of this movie? Look, I don't think it's well-edited or well-paced. This movie does feel like half of it's missing. The movie certainly could have been longer than 96 minutes. There's no question. Right.

There's a happy compromise somewhere in there. I think I read something that said that his goal was two hours. That makes sense. That makes sense. That makes sense. I just think this movie feels like the pre-Restoration Metropolis, where the only way you could watch it was with inner titles that would come up and be like, so we lost these 20 minutes, and here's vaguely what happened for four scenes in a row. It does feel...

Where Metropolis would just explain to you the movie you weren't watching. Wait, that happened? I've never heard this before. Prince Lang's Metropolis. Yeah, I've seen the movie. Right. For a long time was just like only existed in short forms. And then Kino Lorber

in like the late 90s, early 2000s was like, we're going to try to remaster, like restore it as best possible. And they had a bunch of inner titles that were like, so here's a whole sequence that we lost.

And they just like explain what happens to try to give you the full sense of the narrative. And everyone thought that was the best it was going to be and then like 10 years ago someone fucking found it right someone found it in like their dad's attic and they were like he has a 16 millimeter print of the full metropolis and it exists now the good the other one of those is the dvd of lost horizon yes right yes which has like photographs taken on set with on-screen text explaining what's in the script at that time because scenes were lost uh there's a movie that was uh no one liked that

it was the sequel lost horizon is a 210 minute movie like that is actually one of like the original yeah that i believe right right but that's also at a time where you would buy that. Of course, right. There was a Universal tried to make a sequel to All Quiet on the Western Front. Sure. In the 40s. It was, I think,

supposed to be called The Unknown. I like that. Okay. I believe it was called The Unknown. And it was from the German perspective.

Oh, so like a Letters from Iwo Jima deal. And then World War II happened. Uh-huh. And Universal was like, So they like shit-canned the movie. And maybe they like re-edited it and re-titled it and put it in some weird form,

in some butchered form and released it in theaters. But it was one of these things that like people were trying to find forever. Because there were like, there was some finished movie that never got released. And Scorsese was like trying really hard to find it for the film foundation and they ended up finding it when like some guy in like Prague or whatever like you know a projectionist who owned a local movie theater his daughter was going through his like warehouse after he died and they found a

canister that said unknown on it. And she assumed it was like, this is just some unknown unidentified footage. And then she took it out and it was like, oh, that's why no one ever found this because it's called unknown. People just threw it out because they assumed it was like odds and ends. So I make fun of nerds, but hey, you know.

Kind of a cool story. Kind of a cool story. Kind of a cool story. Collectors, they buy this stuff, they hide it away. Right. hey you know kind of a cool story kind of a cool story kind of a cool story collectors yeah they they they buy this stuff they hide it away right and then you continue to have it be in culture well it's supposed to be like the first uh 70 years of uh film uh people didn't like put any effort into preserving things so it was all like nerds you know it was like theater owners and like collectors and these people who just like bought shit in bulk and anytime they've like discovered something they thought was lost

it's because of that it's not because the studio found it in their closet right like those studios couldn't burn those things fast enough how much time during your michael man series we'd be talking about like alternate versions i mean like fucking i Well, here's the answer. In the main release versions of our episodes, not at all. In our remastered definitive cuts of our episodes, then we will... Two weeks after each Michael Mann episode, we are going

to re-release the episode with a changed order and expanded scene. That's my joke. It's obtuse. I don't know. It's a fine joke. It is a joke. my joke. It's up to, it's a fine joke. That would be, it is a joke. Excuse me. It's appropriately courageous.

Right. And I'm not doing that. You're not doing it. Of course you're not doing it, but I'm going to say this right now. I'm going to say this right now. Cause we've talked about this. What about on the black hat episodes?

Can we all wear black hat? Yeah, we can all wear black. Thank you. Uh, I want to say this right now. And fingerless gloves. Okay.

Cause we're hackers. We're going to hack. Sure. Um, Ben thinks Black Hat is hackers. He thinks it's just like the movie. And Ben looks like I just told him that his dog died. The Santa doesn't exist. He's despondent.

He's staring off in the middle of the distance. What were you going to say? I've said this to you guys in private, but I want to put this on the record. If we ever do Peter Jackson, we are releasing mainline, main feed. Oh, you want to do this on the record if we ever do peter jackson we are releasing mainline oh you want to do extended edition for the patreon i mean okay regular length is it the same episode just with stuff added throughout it would have to be that would be the format right it's like the same episode just but then we go on a few extra tangents it'll be much like the lord of the Rings extended editions. None of it's essential. But then...

It all is a nice added world-building flavor in the tangents. But then the actual episodes are much like the theatrical cut, something no one really needs anymore.

Well, I mean, maybe this is the best business strategy for our Patreon anyone's ever come up with. You feel like a fool listening to theatrical versions. There will be no actual Michael Mann rem remixes ben come on i mean ben

come on there's one for almost every movie isn't there yeah and a lot of times for him it's not just making things longer it's also like changing the order so you could just like pick a couple of our little tangents and switch around when they happen ben you can't be upset about this one jackson's not even like on the horizon this year. No, we're talking about Man though now. Oh, Jesus. Doing the Man definitive edition. I will compromise.

I will do it for one episode. For one. Okay, we can pick one. And for one on the Patreon, we'll release a definitive edition. Well, I mean, really, you just have to move like something at the end to the beginning. Right. And then add in one extra tangent. You have to move something at the end to the beginning. Right. And then have one extra tangent. You have to make the opening song way worse.

Exactly. You have to cut in some backing track that's like a cover of a Phil Collins song by a new metal band. Something like that. Which is the one he's fucked with the most? Miami Vice. He fucks with it all the time. You think he's fucked with that more than Mohicans? Well, he released three different cuts of Miami Vice, and the first one the first one that was the good one right i'm not aware of there

being subsequent ones i would have guessed i remember manhunter had many cuts see i'm less aware of manhunter's mess because miami vice he released the director's cut and it was ruinous especially before the internet because you couldn't get the regular cut for a while it was hard people liked that cut no the director's cut sucks. Anyone who likes it is a thief and a liar. I've only seen theatrical. Alex, what do you think of the director's cut? I never saw it because everyone who loved Miami Vice upon release

was very excited about it, and then immediately the word was, don't watch it. You turn it on and you're like, oh shit, why'd he do this? Like, you know, I love that movie. And then he doesn't change much, but he changes a song. Okay. And he puts in a worse, like way worse.

I mean, you guys will obviously, uh, we'll get into this at length, but you know, like one of the best things about that movie and kind of that movie is like an end to how to talk about Michael Mann. I think in the present is like this long,

silent shootout at the end. Yeah. Yes. Which has a song in it, in the director's cut. He puts like a cover of in the air tonight over that. Right. Right. Which has a song in it in the director's cut. He puts like a cover of In the Air Tonight over that.

Right, right. By like Power Man 5000. I remember hearing about that. By like a guy who got fired from Audioslave. That was like Michael Mann's vibe

in the 2000s. Wasn't the trailer for Miami Vice scored to the Jay-Z like in Parks? The movie begins with Namonkar

that is in the greatest opening of a movie I think of my lifetime I showed that in the one time I taught

at NYU with Christian's father I showed that opening scene and I was like this is the greatest beginning

of a movie that's been done in the last 20 years these two minutes are I have only seen it the one time

when it came out how have you not seen it 100 times I don't know pervert well look we'll never talk about it on the show winky winky I have only seen it the one time when it came out in theaters. How have you not seen it 100 times? I don't know. Pervert. Well, look, we'll never talk about it on the show. Winky, winky.

My new bit now is I say we're never going to talk about movies that we've already announced we're going to talk about. That's a great bit. Right? I'm just going to call out the bit right now. I'm going to dissect the frog. I'm done hinting about things that people have surmised we're going to do. I'm now hinting about things that they know we're going to're going to do. I'm now hinting about things that they know we're going to do.

So he messed with Manhunter a lot? And we confirmed. I feel like Manhunter has two or three cuts. I feel like with Heat he would just like add little you know he would beef it out slightly right?

Like every new version of Heat. But he's changed it. The newest version of it he's like changed some shit. Really? He's like used some alternate takes to change some ordering. There's the definitive edition

that just came out like a year or two ago. But crucially and I think this is came out like a year or two ago. But crucially, and I think this is like relevant, like the keep is untouched. Right. According to what I looked up. He just threw up his hands.

There's just no way to do it, but I don't know. It's weird that it feels like the one he would most want to come out with his own version. I wonder if he just doesn't have access to the... You would need millions of dollars, I think.

You'd need to like... That's the other problem. Yeah. Do whole visual effects sequences. According to what I was reading, he seems to have said like, it's just possible there's not the material but talking about him and you're obviously i'm excited to be here at the beginning you're here at the beginning of course what i view is a very important mini series this is a blank check podcast about filmographies

directors have massive success along their career give a series of blank checks make whatever crazy passion projects they want sometimes those checks checks clear, and sometimes they keep. Maybe. Sometimes they, get out! Get out! I don't know. Protsky. Sometimes they drink a dog's blood for no reason in the middle of the movie.

Protsky. I was like, when's Protsky going to show up in this movie? He's in the opening credits, and I didn't realize he was the guy with the big, booky, black beard. He's the guy with the big beard. Yeah, almost unrecognizable he's got a big beard he's got a big beard

and he's also such a white haired man that's true I was not used to seeing him with that much color in his face that's true so Mace Harris

on the film is Michael Mann we talked about Protsky for like 45 million minutes it was mostly a Protsky cast I mean there's such

a company of actors in his movies yes especially like the first decade Mace Harris is called Cast of the Pied Pikes right subtitle Michael Mann splaining right actors in his movies. Yes. Yes. Especially like the first decade. Main series is called Cast the Pot He Gives. Right.

Subtitle Michael Mansplaining. Right. And our guest today is Alex Ross Perry. That's right. And. Director of Her Smell.

That's right. Still in theaters? Fingers crossed. When's this coming out? May 19th. Let's say yeah. Yeah. That's a month out.

Right. One month later. It might be digitally nearing by then. Your window. You got a 30 day window. That's a month off. One month later. It might be digitally nearing by then. Your window, you got a 30-day window on that one. Digitally crowning. Sort of new in between of neither day and date nor 90 days. So that's allowed?

You can do a, I don't know. No one cares anymore about how movies are released. Well, doesn't AMC and Regal care? Isn't that the whole fucking problem? Yeah, but we won't be hearing about those. Right, you're not doing that. But like, right. You know, it's always been this thing of like, well, the indie distributors can do whatever they want if they're avoiding the multiplexes because they're not fighting with like MC and Regal to preserve a window. I had a pop-up ad yesterday for Isn't It Romantic?

Sure. The Rebel Wilson rom-com available on digital. And that movie came out Valentine's Day. True. And at the time we were recording this episode, it is March 28th? 27th? Sure, it's the end of March. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. And they were like available March 30th.

And I was like, that's six weeks? So that's 45 days. That's a 45 day window. That's 45 days. And they're like, it's coming out on Blu-ray mid-April. Maybe New Line has some... I don't day window. That's 45 days. And they're like, it's coming out on Blu-ray mid-April. Maybe New Line has some... I don't fucking know. I don't know. It just feels like

no one's protesting that. You know what was the only thing about this that was... That's my point. They always have these big fights in advance of the subject being brought up. And then New Line just does it

and no one gives a shit. No one cares at all. Did you read the thing that Soderbergh kept saying recently where he said that there has to be a system in place to, by the end of a disastrous opening weekend, just press

a button and have the movie be... He said that to me. In my interview, he said that to a few people. I heard him say it on a podcast. No, you're right. He said it on Simmons' podcast. Retired bit. That's the smartest thing anyone said about releasing movies. I'm saying retired bit when I want to say

the retired bit. It was that thing where he was basically movies. I'm saying retired bit when I want to say the retired bit. It was that thing where he was basically like, I know on Friday if it worked or not. And if it didn't work, I should be able to just put it on Netflix the next week. I should be able to sell people a movie that bombed. Man's a prophet. He's basically almost saying it's almost rude to theaters to say, you have to still play Unsane. You know what I mean?

It's sort of like, I get it. They didn't like it. Forget it. But the other thing is, like, sometimes something does surprisingly well in theaters. You don't want to, like, completely bypass the process because there are certainly movies that people don't expect to last more than a week

that end up having, like, robust, you know, sort of indie runs. Black Cat? You know, Marty? Black Cat? No, you know what's one I remember? Arbitrage? Arbitrage is one of those only movies

that was a day and date release and then made money. And then it made 10 million or whatever. It made like seven or eight. There was like a six month window eight years ago where a day and date movie like that or Margin Call was the other one. I believe.

No one's disproven those are not the same movie. Margin Call's a lot better. Those are both day and date movie like that or Margin Call. Margin Call was the other one. No one's disproven those are not the same movie. Margin Call's a lot better. Those are both day and date movies that like made millions of dollars. Arbitrage made 35 worldwide. Not bad. 10 domestic? How much? 7. 8. But that's like

7.9 higher than any other No of course. People assume that would make 300,000. I think it's often better if Richard Gere is in your movie and it's about like the Upper East Side that means the median age of your audience is like 78 years old right they don't know what a video on demand is so they're gonna go to see it at Lincoln Plaza

that movie also has like a lot of like famous New York people who aren't actors playing other characters like Ed Koch or something Graydon Carter's in it. And there's like one or two other people like that where like every once in a while end up on like a Wikipedia page of like a real financial criminal.

And it's like, of course, he played a key supporting role in the Richard Gere film Arbitrage. Well, also, if your movie is named after like a securities process, you know, like some kind of high-end financial thing, that's a tip, right? That's a little tip of the hat.

You're really giving people what they want with this? Yeah. Mini-series on the films of Nicholas Jarecki. You're right. Graydon Carter is like ninth bill. Yeah, it's like Dickie Gear, Susan Sarandon, Graydon Carter. Nicholas Jarecki is a good poll. He's making a movie right now apparently called Dreamland.

He's not the one who did the jinx. That's Andy Jarecki? Yeah, that's the... The movie phone guy. He's the movie phone guy? He's the voice one who did the jinx. That's Andy Jarecki? Yeah, that's the... The movie phone guy. He's the movie phone guy? He's the voice of movie phone. Andrew Jarecki created movie phone. I did not know that.

I thought that he... I think of him as... What's it called? The Freedman. Capturing the Freedman. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

So, the Jarecki family, like old finance money family. Henry Jarecki, right. Like big, big rich man. And all the kids wanted to be filmmakers and the dad was like you're never gonna be an artist you have to make money so he was like okay i'll become a businessman he created movie phone he sold it for millions of dollars and he was like great now i'm gonna go make my fucking movies fuck you dad fair enough he also co-wrote the theme song to felicity yep jack of all trades.

Really? But he created movie film, then directed Capturing the Freedmen. Remember The Jinx? Ben looks antsy. Remember Bobby the Jinx? I forgot to set the clock. I forgot to set the clock. That's okay, because I'm going to say I believe we're going to go long.

I think we might go long. I'm setting it. I would like to have two episodes in the all-time top ten longest. Do not come into the studio with that. I'm sorry, I have to. And I have a couple things to talk about even I'd like to address before the key. Alex has a full notebook.

Here's the other thing I want to say to you, Alex. You could do a March Madness. We have to do our final March Madness recap. Oh, interesting. And you can stay on for that. We got to talk Final Four. If you think I came in to blind check with an out time, you're crazy.

Anyone who does, I always am like, oh, sweetie, oh, shit. Okay, I'm sorry. My day is clear. Well, the last time check with an out time you're crazy anyone who does i always i'm like oh sweetie oh shit okay like i'm sorry my day is clear well the last time i had an out time it was four and a half hours later and i still ended up barely making it because griffin was two hours that's right that was one of my no if i'm coming in here weaker moments i'm coming in here at one my next my next commitment is in the evening but i know i have a couple things to address one is i love michael man and i i'm very excited we're doing him right i feel like the term should be in the evening. But I have a couple things to address. One is I love Michael Mann and I'm very excited that this is being put.

You're glad we're doing him, right? I feel like the term should be the North American Mann-Blanke Love Association for anybody who wants to listen to this and declare themselves

members of NAMBLA. Of NAMBLA. Of MANBLA. The Mann-Blanke Love Association which you're all members of. Uh-huh. I am. He's a very important

filmmaker to me and I have a to me. We're going to take back Nambla. What if we take it back? What if we totally... Well, you've successfully taken back the cause. We've taken back the cause because, of course, the cause is Kevin Costner now. He was in some movie, South by Southwest, and I kept saying the cause, and no one... It's weird. No one had picked up on your thing yet, but...

It's starting to gain traction. It's definitely going to work. And this will too. The man blanky love associate. I'd like to see an image of you both as children holding Michael Mann's hands. Sure. And the other thing I want to just address, this is vaguely off topic, but I had a good merchandise idea. That will definitely get made.

Okay, great. Has Ben looking up what Nambla is? No, I'm laughing at you. I'm doing some clock business. I said one quick one quick sort of tangential thing I know we want to get back to the Jareckis

and you found a really good merchandise spotlight but we'll save that for later in the episode I did find a good merchandise spotlight but I want to create a potential merchandise spotlight

yeah why is there not merchandise yet that's just the entirety of Demovish's speech Demovish Demovish why have we not

I would have yes I would have a mug and I think many people would have a shirt that's just that whole speech. So it's just text, no image? Nothing, no image. All right, now I have to-

Well, I would like to interject. I am beginning to take screen printing classes, and I had a thought that we could start offering exclusive limited run t-shirts. If we do live events. There's going to be like 100 of these. This is going to sell out. I'll make 20. Wow. This, I. There's going to be like a hundred of these. This is going to sell out. I'll make 20. This I think is going to be the big seller.

I feel like the movie has become iconic. It has become iconic. My wife has like a It has. It has. I mean the question is are we, does anyone own the rights to that speech? You do. Are we going to make that shirt and then is Bruce Valanche going to

sue us and be like I wrote the movie speech. No, no. we going to make that shirt and then is Bruce Valanche going to sue us and be like, I wrote the movie speech. No, no, no. If that did, that'd be cool. I'm trying to find it. Anna has a tote

that's like, you know, a Sex and the City, like a Carrie monologue that I see women around sometimes. Just a tote or a mug that's just that whole speech. I guess if we spell it phonetically,

if we do da-m-o-v-i-a. Right, then it's sort of harder to just Google. That to me is a beautiful piece of merchandise the other thing is that this speech by the time this episode comes out we're going to be fucking selling it if I went to Sean Connery and asked him about it

he would not know he had done that no one remembers that and if I look for like Sean Connery Oscars opening they're like here he is winning an Oscar that's what you want you deserve full credit for that that has changed my life Oscar's opening, they're like, here he is winning an Oscar. That's what you want, right? You deserve full credit for that. You made it happen. I mean, that has changed my life.

It's changed the way I say the phrase, the movies. Forever. So I just want to mention and hope there's a groundswell of support. This is a beautiful piece of text-based merchandise. I promise it will be on sale by the time this episode comes out. Do you remember which Oscars it is? It was the one with Cold Mountain. 2003.

2004. It got posted on the Reddit. I know. I have the commercial. You texted it to me and I have it on my phone because I send it to people once or twice a week. I've sent it to many people. I've shared it with Scottish people.

Sure. It's very important. I watch it once every two or three weeks. I want shared it with Scottish people. Yeah. Sure. Of course. It's very important. I watch it like once every two or three weeks. Now I want to go back a point on your on your bullet list. Okay.

I think the blankies have started doing something very dangerous which is keeping a constantly updated ranking of the longest episodes. Oh sure.

Which then becomes a challenge for your Alex Ross Perry's your JD Amato's of the world to come on and try to break the record. I just couldn't believe at Toronto when you were like, the episode's coming out now. It's, by the way, our second longest episode.

Because they had alerted me to that. I was like, taking Woodstock was two and a half hours long. And I was like, that's interesting. And I feel like maybe there's been some long ones since then but that blew my mind even though I was there for it it's a good memory I remember also Griffin trying to get Rachel to record an episode where she

just heard oh right yeah she's outside we were going to do an episode that was Rachel at her desk 30 minutes of that episode or Griffin's Scorsese story yeah you tell the Scorsese story. It pays out like a slot machine. It pays out like a slot machine,

but that's the thing. We're done with the movie, and then somehow, if you look at the podcast, there's an hour to go, and you're like, what are they talking about? Well, that's going to happen again today.

That's what I'm saying now. This movie's going to be done in 20 minutes. I feel like there's so much to say about Michael Mann. Especially coming in early. I don't know how the Thief episode went. Probably well. I'm going to say this.

The Thief episode, I feel like, was a banger. I think it was. Do you agree? I think it slapped. I think it was pretty great. I think it slapped. This episode might end

with like Molasar coming to just explode our heads or whatever. Okay, Ben wants to say this. I'm fine with you going for longer run of episodes. I'm fine with that, but I already,

as the editor of the show, have made a mental note for Michael Mann that I am going to start really, really cutting some stuff. You're going to start cutting some stuff. Wait, wait a second. You're going to start cutting some stuff? I'm going to start really giving some heavy cuts. No.

You can only do that if you commit to also doing the later definitive edits where you put stuff back in. That's the only way I'll allow that. No cutting. Not after I had to put up with five months of Tim Burton without cuts

where every episode's fucking two and a half hours long. We went, how long? Can't cut scissor hands, baby. Right. Can't cut them. 150,

we went keep blank on fucking Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Yeah. I was wondering, will there be just an ordinary blank check that is over three hours long?

It's got to happen. Just like some... Just like, not like a special episode, but just us chatting. Like you're doing Miami Vice and it's just incidentally three hours

and five minutes long. It's one of those things... Is that the limit that will happen where it's like, will there ever be this? Well, you know how like every time...

We have to have someone like you who has no objection. Who wants it to be through. JD could push us. JD will push us there. You know how every time someone breaks the human speed record then suddenly five people break what was previously an unbreakable record?

Right, right, right. It is the thing where I feel like the bar is constantly getting pushed. I mean, we were talking to a friend of the show, Passive Future guest, Sam Rogal, and noted that when his episode come out, Terminator 2 was two hours and twelve minutes and we were embarrassed. Right.

We eclipsed the running time of the actual movie and we're like, Jesus. How could an episode be this long? And now we can't order a cup of coffee without it going that long. I am excited about The Keep. I'm excited about Michael Mann. But I feel like there's...

He's one of your favorites. I love Michael Mann. Yeah. He's very important. But part of this, and you were talking about Miami Vice, and I feel like this will come up again and again, but there was a time where it was inconceivable to present the notion that Michael Mann was a serious filmmaker.

Right. Even though he was coming off of back back-to-back prestige Oscar movies. Back-to-backs, you mean The Insider and Ali. And I feel like I wrote down, like up until that time, if you were to say like Michael Mann is one of my favorite and one of the best filmmakers, that would be like saying like Ridley Scott

is one of, like Ridley Scott without Alien or Blade Runner. Yeah. Like that body of work, it's like- Like Black Rain, Ridley Scott is one of sure like right Ridley Scott without Alien or Blade Runner yeah like that body right that body of work it's like Black Rain Ridley Scott yeah it's like okay like yeah him really like the guy who made Gladiator the guy who made The Insider like that's your favorite filmmaker I remember when Ali was coming out and my father is a massive boxing fan my brother's a massive boxing fan my father wanted to be an on-camera sports caster we've talked about it and the reason he gave up the dream was he got his shot which was he hosted a documentary about muhammad ali coming out of retirement okay and he was so bad in it right that's his album i'm just picturing him sitting there like because stands on the floor

where jerry's like then again those jobs tend to go to former ballplayers and people with broadcasting experience i'm gonna show you the picture of my father interviewing muhammad ali up until that point like he was just like he was he was just a hollywood director oh oh this is the point i was gonna make when ali came out and i was like do you think it's gonna be good and he went like well michael mann is one of the best filmmakers alive and my dad is not a serious cinephile and i was like, do you think it's going to be good? And he went like, well, Michael Mann is one of the best filmmakers alive. And my dad is not a serious cinephile. And I was like, how is it possible that this guy is one of the best filmmakers alive if I haven't heard anyone else say that?

You know, like as a 12 year old, I was like, I know the people who are constantly referred like Scorsese is shorthand. Coppola is shorthand. Spielberg is shorthand. You're telling me he's one of the best filmmakers alive. i've not heard anyone else throw down that kind of consensus peter newman was really ahead of that he was like big at that time it's like mohicans and then like it's like big sweeping prestige movies and i really feel like as we just discussed like it really turns around with miami vice which was like a very... That's funny. Right.

Oh, wow. Look at that. There's your dad. Really does look like Albert Brooks in a way. He looks very Albert Brooks-y. With Muhammad Ali. This is the photo, but it's also... I'll post it on the fucking feed or whatever. This is also...

He really does look like Brooks. This is his avatar on Instagram too. It's like his favorite picture. Right, right, right, right, right. Muhammad Ali with a mustache when he came back Out of retirement And sucked Is this frame Hanging up at your home? Oh, 100%

Are you kidding me? Why are they outside On a rock? The thing is bad Okay It's bad It seems like A combination of

You know, your dad's Big moment But also like One of the movies They make in Boogie Nights Yes It's very Versus like shots

Of Muhammad Ali Like sniffing flowers And staring off into the Right It's very Lorenz It's like Barney's movie in the Simpsons right that kind you're right like they they thought it was a get and then they like started following him around Peter was a get they thought both and then they started

following around my father interviewing Muhammad Ali after like training to come out of retirement and they were like oh a this guy can't conduct an interview b muhammad ali is gonna lose these fights the stories about your dad are starting to pile up into such like a character on a sitcom who you never see sort of way yes i want to get him on though well everything demi went everything about him that stacks up is like these stories can't all be true it you don't even know half of them well you said that one the other day that was revolting about the which is revolting to me someone who hates feet no that's hilarious oh oh my father my father who is a college professor

you guys this is an off mic revelation okay my father is a college professor uh hates socks he wears like loafers which is crazy to me. I love socks. Socks are great. I have so many pairs of socks. It's crazy. He wears loafers and jeans that are a little too short on him. So his ankles are almost always exposed even during the winter. Even during snowstorms.

That's insane. And he hates wearing shoes so much that he essentially just steps on top of his loafers. So the back heel is just like totally bent. His like heel is totally exposed to the elements. And when he goes into class in front of his students, he like gets behind the desk and then he like takes off his shoes. And he thinks that no one can notice. And every time I met one of my father's students, they're like, oh, my God, your dad's a barefoot professor.

This is crazy to me. But anyway, it's really disgusting. Get him those shoes that have the toes built in. You don't think we've been trying to solve this problem, Ben? You don't think we've been working at this one? Hey, let me consult with Peter. Please. And yet, your dad seemed

to be hip to man before anybody. It was hip to man, and he's not a big movie guy. My point is like prior to Miami Vice like that was maybe your dad's opinion. Yeah. And I think after that movie

it like really exploded with people who were just like I think you're right. Oh my God. And then it really doubled down with Nolan being like you know

The Dark Knight that's inspired by Heat the greatest of movies and people were like Heat the movie that's on cable all the time? That's the other thing.

That's the greatest movie but Heat had a bit of a Shawshank thing where it was like watching it 20 times but with dads exclusively with that sort of

middle aged dad zone but now Heat is a movie the last time it screened in New York it was at BAM it was like because it's long

it was like a 1, a 3, and a 9 and I went at like 2 to get a ticket to the 3 o'clock and one a three and a nine yeah right and i went at like two to get a ticket to the three o'clock and every screening for the day was sold out wow and now he's all like 25 year old kids and people are like oh this is one of the greatest made films ever yeah and then suddenly man is like oh he's one of those he's shorthand now well yeah i mean i did do a lot for it i think you're right about that i mean he's got fickner and then suddenly you just look at you look back at his movies and you're like oh right these are all perfect these are like

a perfectly made body of work uh none more so than the keep the other thing with him though is um i i think miami vice was so divisive that the people who were man stands miami vice like it was you had to take a side fast because it flopped so hard and not only that like it was you had to take it side fast because it flopped so hard and not only that like didn't it make like 70 million dollars

it cost so much it was very expensive it made like 50 or 60 and it went way over but it's not one of those things that like it's not one of those

things that like made 15 no it didn't make 15 no but it was like they were like it cost 150 million dollars it was a bit of a baffling movie it went way over

I think people were also like why isn't that movie what I thought it was going to be, which is like, you know, fun guys in pastel suits. Why is it shot on home video cameras? Right. What's with this digital? Colin, it was the moment where everyone was like, we've been bamboozled on Colin Farrell and you've been trying to tell me he's a movie star and I refuse.

And Jamie Foxx's ego was starting to get. And Colin Farrell's like, I was so stoned. He was like, I don't remember making that was like i don't remember making it i wrapped and then went into rehab right whereas jamie fox like left during production because like dominican gangsters fired gunshots at the set right like it became such a legendary thing he was high on his shit i just think post that movie especially because it was released as like a summer action movie and then like mainstream audiences rejected it the man fans had to be like you know what i'm not keeping this to myself anymore this guy's a genius like man fans started

getting really loud because they were like we have to fight for this because like it was you know like oh he made that early kind of like cheesy pre-science of the lambs hannibal lecter movie yeah and then it's like oh that's the mohicans that's the same guy weird and then it's like big prestige prestigious Oscar movies that do really well. And in retrospect, are both phenomenal. Yeah.

Of course. The Insider and El Ali. The Insider, I hadn't seen in years and we rewatched it when Black Hat came out. We did a little man series. I have never seen that.

Never seen the Insider? I'm very excited to watch it. Wait, is that the only one you've never seen? I've never seen Mohicans either. Wow. You're in for a treat.

And I hadn't seen these two. I hadn't seen Thief and Keith. So you were like, I've only seen half of either. Wow. You're in for a treat. And I hadn't seen these two. I hadn't seen Thief and Keith. So you were like I've only seen half of them maybe. Yeah.

That's what I'm talking about. You've seen Manhunter though. I've seen Manhunter. Insider like when we rewatched it I was like

this is insane. This movie is out of control. Like the style in this is not this is not like a prestige Oscar movie. This is an insane movie.

Oh sure. The Insider. Right, right, right. He's a weird filmmaker. I talked about that a bit on the Thief one. I saw it because i was 13 years old and it was an oscar movie and i was like i need to see the insider yeah yes i need to see this you're gonna flip out for pacino i mean you're gonna be milking pacino impressions from the inside for years that is it's true it's there's one but also plumber impression there's also one monologue that there's one thing pacino screams

in that movie it's like three solid minutes of screaming yeah yeah it's as good as anything he's ever screamed also i want to say two things one i was an avid empire magazine boy when i was a young boy as i've talked about on this podcast living to get that subscription england living in england living in england um we get a reaction from you two hours i'm just laughing griffin wheels away he does i told them i don't want to blow out the mic um and they were always very like michael man is one of the important directors because empire was always like a bit of a boy magazine that like you know liked the the high-end genre stuff maybe i don't know why a lad nag a bit of a lad as your brats would say uh you know because in britain there was total film which was a little more like i don't know it was very bro and very like yeah we like you know guy richie

right you know what i mean empire was like classier than that but not as classy as like sight and sound which is obviously you know very academic and anyway um do you i gotta ask do you three guys have your like sight and sound 10 list like have you done it so that you're like well someday they're gonna ask no I'd love to do it I have like my own general vague 10 in my mind but when's the next one 2022

or look can I talk about it all the time I gotta get invited to that right let's do that list I've specifically made a sight and sound list that's different than my personal 10 or even you know who has made a sight and sound list that's different than my personal 10 or even you know who has a terrible sight and sound list who michael man we talked about it on our thief episode let's bring it back you got that out of the way we talked about the fact that avatar is on it we talked about the fact that beautiful is on it which is the greatest

thing in the world yeah that's like a famously terrible i mean michael what a fascinating guy he writes well about it yeah you. You know what I mean? He's writing books now. He's on Instagram. Right. He's everywhere. He's wild on Instagram. Isn't Guillermo del Toro doing a Michael Mann documentary?

Sounds good. Can't wait. Is it like De Palma? He like pushed off all of his projects after he won the Oscar and was like, I'm going to take a year talking to my three favorite living filmmakers. Okay. And I forget who the other two were, but he's like, I'm going to sit down with them. and you're going to do?

The third one is Guillermo del Toro. George Miller. George Miller. He's basically just doing the bracket. Yeah. Michael Mann. That's all I'm seeing. Maybe it's just the two of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought there was a third. Well, he said two weeks a piece. Right. He's doing with each of them. Right. And I think he's filming it and he's going to release it as a book. Hopefully, it'll be a long De Palma-style documentary.

I just want everyone to do a De Palma movie. I made that pitch. Yeah. You know, the Paltrow-Bombeck. Yeah. Like, every director who's like 70 now, it should be the law. Yeah. That you have to sit down with somebody and they'll just be like, okay, and next we've

got to keep talk for 10 minutes. Right? And like, the movie doesn't have to be good. It should be fine. Yeah. with somebody and they'll just be like okay and next we've got the keep talk for 10 minutes right and like the movie doesn't have to be good it should be fine yeah you know it should be

very watchable and I want that around the time of this coming out the piece I've been making on Paul Schrader for the Criterion when is that

it's gonna be early Criterion channel I was wondering about it because it was gonna be for Filmstruck yeah that's what happens when you do something

for so long that the thing you're doing it for ceases to exist or that's what happens in a world where things only exist for 12 months before the their conglomerate shuts them down it's not like that because he doesn't want to talk about all that stuff and it's not a feature length but right but it is a man of that age just sitting giving no shits and just kind of like which sounds fantastic throwing you, throwing insults at every one of his generation and just generally being a maniac.

We did get him to talk... He's got good socks right now. Oh, thanks. Just speaking of socks. From Pendleton. A killer sock. Yeah, I did get him to talk about Facebook

in our final... Oh, that's awesome. Our final piece with him. But yeah, it's a great idea. But you know, what's interesting, you see this online, like, The Keep is referred to

as a movie that like michael man doesn't talk about right like if they made that movie he'd be like he made thief then he made this movie called the keep and then manhunter right right right and the way that like a movie that this sort of reminds me of friedkin's the guardian which is yeah right comparably a disaster right or you know equally a disaster is like in the friedkin book the guardian and deal of the century are the only movies he does not even mention in his like 400 page autobiography. You know, there's so many movies like this and we've covered them on this show before where it's like someone's first film. They were trying to make something that was a little more of a genre exercise.

It was taken away from them. They released a version that they kind of disowned. And that's what made them like such a single-minded artist you know like james cameron after like piranha 2 is like fuck it i'm never taking guff from anyone ever again i'm gonna make the exact movie i want like this feels like the movie that like michael mann comes out of fully formed and instead it's like this is the movie that comes after the fully formed michael mann also you probably covered, comes after years of other fully formed things. Right, right, right.

He's not like some neophyte who randomly made a good movie. But even just trying to make it through the studio system, you know, like this feels like a first film that someone overcomes. It seems to say online that he wanted to make an adult fairy tale. That's what he said, an adult fairy tale of fascism. He threw out a lot of the book.

I wonder why he would want to make an adult fairy tale. It has nothing to do with Chicago. There's no role for Dennis Farina. Why does he want to make this movie? So I found an interview with Ian McKellen where he said he did a lot of research on the accent for the character and the time period. And he showed up on set. Because he's like Romanian. Right.

This is like set in Romania. Right. And he worked on the Romanian thing and trying to be era appropriate and he got on set and after the first take Michael Mann was like can you drop the accent make it sound a little more Chicago Ian McKellen says literally Michael Mann said

can you just make it more like a Chicago kind of patois well he didn't everyone in this just uses an English accent there's no accents McKellen's voice is very weirdness I mean it does feel like someone who prepped a very specific accent and then was told to drop it and couldn't fully drop it

I'm very excited we'll save the McKellen corner for when we get to his arrival in the movie we'll do a full performance review it's fascinating it's very exciting this is an interesting thing that's why I want to be here this is the one to see,

like if there was a Michael Mann retrospective, this would be the one that you're like, right. Oh, the key. Oh, they never screened that. Yeah.

And whenever it's screened in New York, it's always sold out. It's screened at Nighthawk years ago and it was sold out. It's screened at BAM. Yes. So there is like, I couldn't go to that screening. There is like a print.

There is because it used to be, it used to just be on Amazon prime. Right. And it was like the most hateful, unspeakable print. It looked like someone had pointed a video. That's where I watched it. At a VHS, right.

And now it's been updated. They've updated it. It's better now. Yeah. Oh, okay. Because it also used to be on Netflix streaming. Right. And it used to be very grainy and lame.

It was never released on DVD. It was never released on Blu-ray. The VHS was hard to come by. And it used to have like a temp score. Right. Now it doesn't. There is a print that whenever it pops up, it sells out.

Well, fair enough. It's popped up a couple times the other crazy thing no i'm sorry what were you guys oh nothing i just keep on keeping on i'll keep on keeping on the other crazy thing is when this movie came out i found a bunch of the reviews where people complained that you couldn't hear any of the dialogue because the tangerine's uh Dream score was so overwhelming. I certainly don't know anything about movies like that. Keep people, because there is like a really rabid keep hive. There is, yes. There are people who fucking love this movie,

like in the horror community. Andy Levy is one of them. Like not Michael Mann people. Yeah, well, Andy Levy too. But like there is like a subsection of like 80s horror people who for them, this is one of the sacred objects

and those people who have seen the film in many forms seen it screen seen it vhs saw it when it came out claim that this new uh sort of digital transfer that exists that you can rent from itunes or amazon that is of a slightly better quality not not high def, but of a better quality than the copy that used to exist, that also it maybe was a little bit remastered on the levels and that the music used to be more overwhelming. Apparently, it used to be inaudible. Both the editing and the audio

on the Amazon copy seem like you're watching a work print. It's not great. When you would find a bootleg in the 90s it's like oh this is the apocalypse now work print or like this is the three hour spinal cap it also watching the movie you're like is this him trying to make like the holy

mountain like is there even supposed to be any attempt at a coherent narrative because there's shit like Lance Henrick showing up and then five seconds later there's a sex scene you mean Scott Glenn sorry I always confused has a Henrick's own structure very's a sex scene. You mean Scott Glenn. It's not Lance Hendrickson. I always confuse Lance Hendrickson. He kind of has a Hendrickson bone structure. I'm very excited by this because I was behind Scott Glenn in airport

security very recently. Oh! How's he doing? He looks great. Does he? I don't know. He's sort of tall and tall. All I can say is that he has TSA pre-check. That rules. That's where we were. He was leaving LaGuardia for some reason. And he looked great. I was very excited. Maybe he was going to the keep. He had to blast some energy. His he looked great. I was very excited. Maybe he wasn't going to the keep. He had to blast

some energy. His eyes lit up and he was just on his way. I'm on my way. Because isn't that his vibe in this movie? He's just like, shit, gotta go to the keep. That's like his arc. He wakes up in Greece and takes a boat to the keep. There's something weirdly modern about him in this movie where when they cut to him for the first time

He's supposed to be like an elemental being and it's like, what's the element of being? It's like Scott Glenn with blue eyes? Like glowing eyes? When they cut to him for the first time. Right, and he's supposed to be like an elemental being and it's like, what's the element of being? It's like, Scott Glenn with blue eyes? Like glowing eyes? When they cut to him, I was like, oh, so this is like a parallel narrative movie where we're going to cut back and forth between like the 40s and Scott Glenn in like 1980s Los Angeles.

And then he showed up at the keep and I was like, wait, this guy's supposed to be in the 40s? Yes. I had two things I wanted to say. Please. One, in terms of just Michael Mantok, he is like the opposite of James Cameron in our purposes in that he never makes the guarantor in a way.

Yeah. I was going to ask where you placed his sort of, you know. I mean, he is, well, I think he at this point is the guarantor less than he can see his biggest hit adjusted for inflation and i guess that was like no one could object to that it may double what it cost in america alone right you know it was well received right like yeah you know man that that's what gets him heat right i have a take can i give you my take okay my take is he never has the movie that's enough of a hit to be a guarantor he does weirdly the way he gets his checkbook is because

massive stars right he always gets cast that are eager is that those people like you look at that run and it's like okay you have de niro pacino tom cruise Will Smith yes Johnny Depp Molasar Molasar yeah yes I mean insiders and Viola Davis and Black Hat yes but insiders weirdly kind of an outlier because it's like Pacino was at the end of his leading man run and Russell Crowe was about to pop no but Pacino totally counts totally I'm saying the other guys were literally like the second or third biggest box office star at that moment.

He always worked with the dudes who were at the fucking top. Every one of the post-heat movies, like Insider kind of makes what it costs. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Ali doesn't make what it costs. Loses a lot of money. Collateral makes a little more. Successful because they're awardsy. They're awardsy and they're well-received.

Collateral made more because of Tom Cruise. But you know, it costs a lot. It's one of those things where you're like, oh made more because of Tom Cruise. But you know it costs a lot. It's one of those things where you're like oh Public Enemies did well. Oh it costs a lot. Right. I don't think anyone is saying like I want to be in the Michael Mann business because I love Big Buck's baby. Right. No. So he's weirdly an odd choice

for us but then he always gets checks. Well the thing is. Except not anymore. The thing is every time. Black Cat was there. He seems to be one of those people that has been forced into retirement I mean I guess he's always

kind of maybe making another movie he was supposed to make a Ferrari movie with Christian Bale and now another Mangold made a Ferrari movie and it's coming out this year

and secretly it's a western no yeah I mean Mangold cocked him but it just seems like the industry has kind of finally had enough of the Michael Manns

of the world yeah same with Fincher all these guys I mean same with Sc industry has kind of finally had enough of the Michael Manns of the world. Yeah, same with Fincher, all these guys. I mean, same with Scorsese kind of. And these are like these kinds of guys. Yes, Scorsese, the studios are like fuck off. No, too much money. I don't know about that. I don't want to not make money anymore. So he goes to Netflix who will like give him the money. Maybe his movies perform

better. Netflix should make a Michael Mann movie. He could not get the Irishman made with a studio. Well, but that's also because he was asking for like $200 million. And also he wanted the entire cast of Vinyl to play the entire cast. One notable exception. There's one person I'm not saying that Scorsese

couldn't ever get a movie made again but I will say you know. These are all very interesting comparisons and this is why I love Michael Mann, is like, he is so not one of those, he has nothing to do with, like, the American cinema of the 70s.

No. Which a lot of those people do. He is his own product. Yeah, like, he's, you know, like, when you hear these kind of comments where it's like, Tarantino says, like, oh, the 80s were the worst decade for American movies. We were just talking about this. You're all about the 80s.

This is your favorite decade. It's just like, actually, it's like a counterpoint actually they're the best yeah right and like you're kind of not that into the 70s guys well i mean of course i always have been but like i just came to love the things that were of my lifetime more so let's talk about some of the like who are the 80s contemporaries i mean to me it's like hater for home rushmore is like michael man right schrader the Hogan. Mount Rushmore is like Michael Mann. Right. Schrader. De Palma. The craggiest Mount Rushmore.

De Palma who like spans a lot of these things. De Palma for sure. Like he even has like these 60s movies. And then he is one of those 70s guys. And then he's also one of those 80s guys. This Mount Rushmore is a serious coke problem. Yeah, it's a pretty. The noses are like.

The alimony this Mount Rushmore has to pay on a monthly basis is through the roof. The concession stand only only has whiskey and mountains of drugs and cigars oh boy but like

you know like these kind of like and Friedkin who again like is a 70s guy but I think his 80s work is like phenomenal like that 80s stuff is just very exciting

and it's much more interesting to me but now like the 80s quote unquote in like the 80s quote unquote in like the Stranger Things sense close

telling you make that mug I have the clip we're going to look at it afterward like the 80s had become like the Stranger Things

bouillabaisse and like the 80s is like when people say the 80s are bad it's like oh you know it's just like the Goonies and like kids movies

being made by studios but it's like it's like oh but no actually the 80s are to me like It's just like the Goonies and kids movies being made by studios. They're trying to give Amblin. Yeah, it's like, oh, but no, actually the 80s are, to me, Michael Mann is figuring, Manhunter is in the 80s. American Gigolo is in the 80s. Sure. But also, the 80s were Body Double.

Yeah, Body Double. They're both in there. He's one of your guys. He's maybe one of the ones who works in the concession. Plot time, Caspian. But it's like, in the concession. Caspanian. But it's like those are really exciting when you like look at the 80s like to me it's like oh yeah like Michael Mann movies

mean that the 80s is very valuable. Of course. This is part of that but this is like this weird kind of fantasy movie that's not Amblin-y at all. I guess. And therefore no one likes it. It also doesn't really work as any traditional horror movie which like horror is really robust at this point in time in American cinema. 100%.

Right. And this is like kind of a weird tweener thing that doesn't fit into any conventional horror box. Well, because this is right. Because this is not a movie. Basically. I mean, yeah, but I. I think it doesn't count as a movie. I mean, it's very watchable.

I actually like it. Yeah. There's things I like about it a lot. It's very captivating. It's very captivating. But actually like it. There's things I like about it a lot. It's very captivating. It's very captivating, but it doesn't make any sense. And if you ask the director about it, he's like, well, yeah, we never really finished it. I mean, it's like Piranha 2 in that sense or whatever. These things where they're like, I don't know.

I let some Italian guy put his name on it. Yeah, they took it away and it's not like a done movie. I mean, the weird thing about it is there are certain things it gains from being hacked to death like that because somehow the weird gaps the things that aren't explained these like key like character development that should happen right it's just the keep getting to you it has this weird kind of dream logic to it keep yeah you know what i'm saying though like it does yes it feels like a yodorovsky movie to me where it's like you just got a vibe on it. You can't make any sense of this thing.

You understand the basic principles. It could be 30 minutes long or three hours long. Both valid. Honestly, because I'd seen it a couple times and Anna was like, I don't really need to re-watch The Key if you can watch that yourself.

I was watching it. I will say also, I said to you Michael Mann and before I was even done saying Mann, say also, I said to you, Michael, man, and like before I was even done saying man, you were like, the key. Of course. You always want to pick the one that doesn't exist.

Yeah. Right. Because otherwise, otherwise you won't have one of your top 10 longest episodes about a movie that has no reputation and is essentially not important to that director's body of work. Sure.

But I had seen it before and I remember thinking it wasn't so great the last time I watched it and I really enjoyed it the other day I really found it to be in my mind it was like a real two star movie I found it very aesthetically pleasing

I had a certain kind of ASMR tingle through watching the whole movie it's very perfect vibe it's very Griff friendly He can do a wonderful vibe standing on his head. He can make these beautiful images and this perfect

music easily. And he does that here with a bomb. I guess that's what's weird though is that it's such a different vibe than what he usually does. I mean, I was reading through an interview that Roger Ebert did with him right after Thief came out. And Roger Ebert was like,

this guy's the new triple threat. He's a writer, director, producer, and he's going to be the new, like Scorsese, the new Coppola. He's like, Ebert called that he was going to become the next guy on Mount Rushmore and that this was the film

that kind of threw him off the path. That everyone thought like, well, Thief is his mean streets and he's going to make his taxi driver next. Like this guy's going to be on a miracle run. Right. And everyone sort of checks out after Keep for a little bit. And in that interview, a, he says, do you think you'll ever produce movies that you don't direct? And he goes,

yeah, well, I have a lot of projects that I feel like I'm not the right director for. I don't have time to do all of them. Like, for example, I wrote this script called heat that I'm really proud of. I think it's the best thing I've written, but I couldn't even imagine directing that thing. And he said that in, like, 82. And then he makes LA Takedown, like... Sure, 89. Right.

And then five years after, he's like, fuck it, hold my beer. Like, I'll finally, like, make the thing. But the other thing he said in the interview was, like, Roger Ebert was asking him about his style. And we were talking about how stylized Thief is, like how in his own way,

Michael Mann is as heightened and stylized as Tim Burton, except it's a very different kind of style. It's a very extreme comparison. Well, he said my style, I like to call it stylized reality. Like I'm very obsessed with the tangible reality of the thing and getting all the details right. And then I'm stylizing what is real.

Did Ben like the part in Heat where James Caan screams about his clothes? You mean in Thief? In Thief. Of course. In the car. When he runs down how much every item costs. He's got the Rolex. He's making sure.

I love too how he just like throws around terminology for like classifying jewelry. Like we all know what that means. He's like, it's a freaking D. Like I, what? I we all know what that means he's like it's a freaking D like I I don't know what that is that's definitely my

favorite scene in Thief where he just screams about how expensive his tastes are Ben scoffed at it and called him a cheapskate you should Alex

I got some these boys found out about my taste yeah he recommended a $5,000 shirt to me the other day well you look good in it thank you

it looks great yeah Patreon money right there. Right there on Griffin's shirt. That is what's interesting to me about, I mean, Manhunter is very stylized as well, but still is like that sort of baseline, like he's working off of what reality is.

For him to even want to make a fairy tale, for him to want to make a movie that has like magical elements in it, feels very odd with his whole like it's very it's very incongruous that's why i was so excited and it's entirely unsuccessful i mean it's not his strong suit it's funny that he's never done anything that doesn't have like a guy with a gun running down the street it's the it's the one like he never even it wasn't like oh now i can go back to that i made i made the insider. Now I can finally make my fairy tale again.

Right. He seems to have no interest in that. I mean, because he said he read the book and didn't like it, but liked the idea

of making a fairy tale for adults about fascism. What a gross phrase, by the way. So weird. The most unappealing pitch in the world. But also,

that is like the pitch for Pan's Labyrinth. Sure. I don't like Pan's Labyrinth. Here's a fairy tale for adults. You don't? Interesting.

Not really. I mean, I think it's okay. Yeah. I just think it's interesting that you hear Guillermo del Toro wants to do that and you're like, sure i don't like here's a fairy tale for adult you don't interesting not really i mean i think it's okay yeah i just think it's interesting that like you hear gilmore the tour wants to do that and you're like yeah that seems like in line with that guy's sensibility he seems like a big fat child right but michael man seems like someone that would like take a kid's toys away and tell him to like grow the fuck wise up to how correct you're on the cash register because i gotta go take a cigarette break but like weirdly the sort of like... Five year old. The sort of, you know, if there's anything in here that seems

like it excites him, it is the sort of like relationship between corruption. And one thing he always does is he always makes bad guys seem very appealing. Yes. Like that's true in this movie. You can see why he'd want to try to make something that's vaguely Nazi-ish. Like he makes bad guys seem kind of cool.

Or in his best movies, extremely cool. The tough guys making tough decisions, like here's a man backed into a corner, that's like, I mean, it feels the thing that he's connecting with here is the Ian McKellen character, where it's like,

what is he going to do in relation to the Nazis? Yeah, sure. You could see him wanting to be like, well, you know, I like the idea of a movie that's like people guarding something. In my mind, it would be like a safe full of money,

but this is good enough. It's some sort of spiritual barrier. Okay, Michael Mann wants to make a horror movie. It's about a supernatural creature that's attacking Nazi soldiers so they hire a Jew to try to stop it. Sort of. Here's what I like about The Keep.

I mean, or like, I think the setup of this movie is great. The beginning is very elegant. The first 20 minutes, you're like, oh,

this has to be a good movie. This is like high art. Because it's like, we've come to this crazy set. It just feels like Sorcerer, which at this time was like a movie you probably couldn't mention in Hollywood

without being thrown off a lot. Without someone vomiting. Right, exactly. But it feels like that. It's this set that's like very stark, you know, and actually cool. Not like that. It's this set that's like very stark, you know, and actually cool,

not like trying to be, right? It's just like... That keeps that with the crosses. Big fucking pile of rocks with these weird crosses. They're Nazis,

so you're like, okay. Jürgen Prochnow. Jürgen Prochnow, yes. And everything with Nazis and the supernatural is of interest. Any kind of Nazi

spiritualism stuff is weird. Yeah. So they're walking around. It's so weird. This is coming so soon after Raiders of the Lost Ark. Yeah. You understand how you could sell this movie. Maybe.

I mean, when I'm watching the movie at first, I'm like, is it all about Nazis? Did I forget something? But, you know, Scott Glenn's going to show up. Ian McKellen's gonna show up. Something I did write much later is that this movie has no main character. No, it has no main character.

It keeps introducing a main character, but then they are not the main character. Well, Scott Glenn is top-billed. He is top-billed. And apparently he was

supposed to be the main character, and they cut out most of his stuff. Why is it that when movies get cut, it's never from the beginning? They always cut out

the good stuff. Yeah. It's like, we need to cut an hour out of this movie. Just cut out the end. Right. You're a big proponent of most movies can start like 40 minutes later. Yeah, right. This could start with him just waking up.

Right. You know? Yeah, yeah. They open the key. And then we'll figure it out. The Nazis are there. Right. They kind of only cut to Scott Glenn when they need to establish where he is.

Right. Because it says Greece in the subtitle. We'll get to Scott Glenn. Yeah, okay. But I just like that idea of they're like where he is right you know because it says greece we'll get to scotland but like i just like that idea there's these crosses they're not cross crosses no but they're things yeah they're in the carpathian mountains which is already also cool it's like transylvania you know adjacent right it's like a jewish pyramid it's a weird golem pyramid maybe and some nazis are like this must be silver let's take it yeah and the custodian or whatever he is first they're just like this is your new outpost yeah first they're

like we just have to live here yeah and they're stringing up lights yeah they're like god stuck on monster guard again someone tries to take i my favorite thing is just someone's trying to take the cross and the custodian's like don't do that and no one's like why what explain exactly what would happen if i took the cross they're just like all right one of my favorite no one makes an announcement to everyone like by the way the creepy guy with the beard said don't take the crosses you know what i mean well they have no reason to believe him one of my favorite things is anytime that they're like wait a minute these aren't keeping things out they're keeping something in oh that's you're right that's such a good reversal and this hits that pretty quickly and it's very exciting i

remember that was in the preview for one of the Exorcist prequels. I forget if it was the Schrader one or the Reddy Harlan one. But there's like a reveal of statues in a church, and they're like, wait a minute. I think it's the Harlan one. These spears are pointing down. They're not protecting us. They're keeping things from coming up. That is in the trailer.

Yes, I remember the spears pointing down. I was just like, I love that. That was the line in the trailer that got me to see that movie yeah me too anytime that something was revealed to actually be keeping something in I'm excited so now like the movie is great at this point Nazis are there to keep as well as I'm

all about it and then have you seen it before? yes I've seen it one time before out of like completionism largely and I think I had watched that terrible version and then some nazis pry open a cross right and they get sploded they get broad which is also cool that is nicely super cool yeah the corpse is really it's also interesting because like practical effects like

michael may doesn't really do that either no no he's not a special effects not at all this has to be like the only one and in fact is now like really regarded as being like such a master practical exactly he basically like teaches you how to rob a bank like that's what the movie is right but it is done well it's done very well and i like the whooshing wind stuff you know the sort of uh in and out and when they open the cross they kind of found out like you know there's something below below the keep. There's like this big cavern. There's like a shot that pulls all the way down. Yeah,

which is so cool. Love all of this. Then we cut to Scott Glenn and the movie's basically like derailed almost immediately. When it should be off to the races, it goes off to the golf course. Yes, exactly.

And you're like, can we get back to the races? I like all that, and they're like, all right, now let's meet Scott Glenn, Ian McKellen in a wheelchair, and Gabriel Byrne, like in quick order with no real explanation. I feel like you met Byr they're like, all right, now let's meet Scott Glenn, Ian McKellen in a wheelchair, and Gabriel Byrne in quick order with no real explanation.

I feel like you met Byrne by this point. No, because he shows up when they bring him in when they die. He's the heightened. Because he comes in and he's like, it's definitely these Romanian peasants who exploded a guy, shoot them all. And they just keep saying like, eight of our soldiers have died. And then the next time they're like, six more have died. Yeah, you don't get to see any of the deaths.

But you do see like the sort of- Just a couple. the the hole at the bottom of the keep is like moria it's very exciting very cool very good idea it seems very ancient it's like believable that this is very threatening yeah don't don't take the crosses can we say what are they gonna do with the crosses anyway like who's around who's like them you dummy they only want the one because they're all nickel except for one that's silver. Yeah, yeah. The silver one's real good, though. Don't,

that's the important one. They also do look like tinfoil. They do. They do, yeah. They're very, very poorly done. I wonder if some prop guy like stole one and still has it

like embedded into his wall. The creepy beard guy at the beginning who's like explaining. The custodian guy. What's his name? W. Morgan Shepard. And he says like, my father did it his father guarded the yes his father created the

keeper the voice he's doing which i looked it up because i was curious if he was the dude he sounds so much like one of the movie trailer guys he does not don la fontaine but one of the other like in a land where everything has turned evil and And then I looked him up, and that's not, like, his voice at all. That's, like, the voice he chose for this character. But the way he's, like, explaining, like, the mystery of the keep sounds like he's just doing the voiceover for the trailer of the movie he's in. I also like where the Nazis are like, wait, wait, back up, back up.

You live here? Yeah. Like, are you in charge? Are you a religious person he's just like i do my job my father did it my son will do it too it's the 20th century you just like make sure no one disturbs this pile of right like you know if the check clears i don't question it this is like i wrote down like when you cut to greece and then you meet gary will burn this is like in the 24 25 minute mark yeah this is basically a third of

the way through this yeah that's what's crazy short movie yeah yeah and everything up until here has been very nice love it but then they like find the weird cyrillic writing yeah they find the weird writing and they're just like let's go get that old jew who we're keeping locked up right because we do we've seen mckellen on a boat with his daughter. Yeah. He's kind of infirm. He's very infirm. His voice sounds totally dubbed. It also sounds exactly like Gandalf. Right. I can't speak to the ADR.

Like, yes, everyone in this movie seems ADR. It sounds like it might have been him dubbing himself. Yeah, no, I know. But he feels ADR. He's doing this weird, like, Eastern European Gandalf voice. Right. And he's, like, pancaked in makeup. And you're like, why are they not hiring an old person?

It's one of those, well, but we know. It was even McKellen was only like 70 when they made this movie, right? Right, right. He was still a young man. He was a spry seven. But this is,

I'm glad we're at McKellen now because this is very, I mean, I don't think of him as being in anything at this time, but I'm sure he was in many things. No, I don't think so. He wasn't in a lot of things. He was a theater guy, mostly.

It wasn't until like Richard III that he really kind of became a movie star. And that's why 90? That's 95. 95? I'm trying to find, because you have to, not stage, come on, filmography. I mean, he plays... No, this is his, this is honestly, this is his fifth role, but three of the roles were made in the 60s.

So it's his second role, basically. Interesting. roles are were made in like the 60s so like it's his second role basically interesting my favorite uh ian mckellen performance of the early 90s of course is him as uh the seven seals i knew you were gonna version of death i can tell you remember that then last action hero plays death from the seventh seal right right right right right which is another thing where when you look back at that movie as with this you're like oh ian mckellen had a whole career before right he was ian mckellen remember he pops up in uh i'll do anything right right you know like that he used to be like an english guy right you know who you could have

play an english guy but he's very exciting in this movie i feel like if you made this movie today he's still the guy you cast in that oh no question he'd be so good i don't know how you de-age i guess you would just like do the Magneto filter on him right yeah but it's very interesting he's very maybe he just turns into

Michael Fassbender well he does seem to be playing Magneto in this movie sort of he is he's like a Jew with magic powers

who's been locked away and then he forms an unholy alliance you know but he's very tempted by evil he's very exciting but one thing about him

is like now you have gabriel burn yeah playing a nazi correct which he is not aesthetically qualified to do sure gabriel burn who's irish as fuck yes and ian mckellen playing a jew i feel like ian mckellen does anybody go back and forth between jews and more than him? That's a great call. Richard III, he's fascistic. He's a Nazi, yeah. At pupil, obviously. And then this.

You got Bent. He's a Jew in Bent. He's a Jew in the X-Men movies. Magneto, concentration camp survivor. I don't think there's anything else in his filmography that I'm thinking of that's quite as extreme. Obviously, he played James Whale, which is neither. Yeah. Sure, but.

He's played a couple other Jews. I'm trying to remember. I mean, the polar bear in The Golden Compass is Jewish, right? That's canonical. Yeah, well, Gandalf. Gandalf is Jewish. He says things.

Gandalf awaits at Ellis Island. He brings a big platter of locks to the hobbits, right? Yeah. At the start of the movie. Come on, hobbits. Come on, take it easy already. You need to eat.

God. Get the ring when we get the ring. He plays Gus the theater cat in Cats this year. Is Gus the theater cat Jewish? Gus is, you know, either a Jewish name or a Nazi name. Look, I don't want to do an episode on Cats, but I definitely

want to do just a performance review of Cats. That cast is so insane and those characters are so stupid that I'm going to be very interested in seeing cats is just a performance review because the plot of cats is that a bunch of cats do a performance review who plays buster for jones in the movie and whoever wins gets to go to heaven right buster jones is being played by james corden how do you feel about that um yeah that's okay you want to do it you want to run it down id Idris Elba, Macavity, Rebel Wilson, Jenny Annie Dots.

Let us react. Okay, Idris Elba, Macavity. Okay. Very logical. Rebel Wilson. Idris Elba's in that Fassbender zone right now. Yeah. Where it's like, is this guy bankable?

I don't know, but let's cast him. In everything. You know what I mean? In everything. In everything. He's been in that zone for a while. I guess he's been in it for a few years. Pacific Rim was quite a few years ago.

Oh, he's canceling the apocalypse. And he's in Prometheus, right? Yes. He's literally in that Fassbender zone. That's true. He was in the zone there. But now he's taking clear lead or clear villain roles. Yeah.

We don't need to react to all these. All right. Fine. Rebel Wilson, Jamie. Are you worried about timing? No, I want to save the timing for man. I've already like... Judy Dench, Old Deuteronomy.

Obvious. Ian McKellen, Gus the Theater Cat. Right, those are lazy choices. Taylor Swift, Bumble Arena. Excited about this.

I'm so into that. James Corden, Bustopher Jones. Sure. And by the way, I got some intel on Schrader for the piece about his Taylor Swift

Of course, big fan. Yeah, I got about why he thinks she's so great. But he'll talk about it in your thing. Well, not to you know subscribe to the criterion exactly we don't want to make the final cut well i mean we

haven't okay finished yet but we're getting to the good shit i mean there's one that i really want jennifer hudson grizzabella sure right yeah jason derulo rum tum tucker what's happening here who is that jason derulo how does one describe i mean he's not an actor no uh he's a singer it's like an r&b singer yeah uh he's famous for saying his own name in songs sometimes jason derulo are they in the make are they gonna look like they look in the in the stage show that's a great question or is it going to be like the cat in the hat michael meyer we must do that he also he should be in it as the cat in the hat right he should show up closes the book i hope they literally just take the cat in the hat makeup yeah and have them all wear that the exact same but there's no i mean is there a chance that there's like special effects in this movie i

don't know i'm just wearing the stage makeup and julia god it's tom hooper anything could happen anything could happen from the twisted mind of tom this is christmas this year christmas yeah literally opening the same weekend as Star Wars Episode IX. I want to have a movie on the blank check picture slate. Okay. Ooh, that's a goal for the end of this episode. Do you want an existing one or do you want a pit? I don't know.

I'll see what's in development. We got a couple good ones developing without any talent attached. A remake of The Keep starring Griffin as the McKellen role? Yeah. No, you gotta keep McKellen. Griffin can be the daughter or something. I'll be the daughter. Maybe McKellen has some other... Yeah, let's go back to McKellen. I feel like he is so fun to watch.

Basically, he literally says as he does in Fellowship, they're coming, they're coming, they're here in this movie. Yes, it says, I am Gandalf the Grey. Yeah, he's Gandalf the Grey. He literally says that in this movie. Yes. It says, I am Gandalf the gray. Yeah. He's Gandalf. He literally says that in this movie. I wanted a scene where after he gets touched by Mollisar, he like does a dance sort of like the six flags guy or Charlie and the

chocolate factories, grandpa Joe, he's like, I can dance, you know, like that, that would have been good. I feel like one thing about that,

which is a very exciting scene, but it's almost entirely shot from the reverse where you don't see Mollisar's face. We should mention Mollisar is the name, which is never said in the movie, I believe. I don't think anyone says that. But in that scene, is it Mollisar? He's mostly dry ice, right? He's not yet been revealed as a prop. Let's assume people maybe haven't seen the key.

Basically, they bring him in to read the Cyrillic, and then they just lock him in a room. I do like that they bring him in, and he confirms what they've already been told, which is like, oh, no, no. He actually translates it properly, right? I wrote down that he says, I will be free. Yeah, right, right. Anyone else who reads the Cyrillic is like,

it just says like banana, potato salad, table leg, right? It's nonsense. I can read it but it doesn't he is in like a camp when they find it he's like behind bar but he's like an expert on the mysticism of whatever you know and his daughter reveals that he is 48 years he's 48 years old but he's hard for he's he's yeah he's got some sitting walls on um and he in the book it's like you know it's it's hp lovecraft shit. It's like Molasar is some ancient demon, right? So it's from that time.

But then in the movie, he's represented as looking like Apocalypse. He literally looks like Oscar Isaac's Apocalypse. So apparently, even just the original Apocalypse, the non-movie Apocalypse. It's fair. But the original Apocalypse at least has an A on his belt so that you know who he is. You know who he is. You don't forget his name. What a the original Apocalypse at least has an A on his belt so that you know who he is. You know who he is. You don't forget his name. What a cool name Apocalypse is.

It is amazing that no one had taken that one by the 70s or by the time Apocalypse shows up. Big Apocalypse fan. He rules. He's great. He's stretchy. Go ahead. Of course, this character sort of materializes more and more every time you see him. He starts out more sort of ethereal.

At first, he's really just wind. Right, right. And light. Sort of bringing some weird synchronicity to the Hollow Man episode. Right, then he sort of becomes like skeleton, then just sort of muscle. Then he starts to have more and more of a human form. Apparently, the idea was that he was moving towards looking like Scott Glenn. Yeah, he was going to take Terminator form.

The final fight would be good Scott Glenn glenn versus bad scott glenn right right instead he is like this like just kind of like stunning like brick uh i do think he looks really cool in the muscle form but the other thing was apparently michael man could not decide what he wanted the character to look like this is i've read this too which which is insane. I can't really imagine this, so what does the villain look like?

He's like, I'm still thinking about it as they're building this set. But make sure we have a mold of Scott Glenn's face. But there was a contradiction where it was like he couldn't make a decision

but he also was very specific in knowing what he didn't want. So he kept on being like, no, it has to be exactly like this. And they would make it and he'd be like,

I don't like it at all. And this is presumably while shooting or at least close to it. The other thing was they hired a special effects supervisor who died two days

into post-production and he had not explained to anyone else what his strategies were. Right, right. He was a 2001 guy, right? This is another one of those those real,

I mean, that sounds like the plot of a movie where someone dies with some secrets, but that feels dubious. Wally Weaver's was his name. Totally true. I mean, it seems to be repeated a lot when you read about the key, but how can that be true? Mann said that he oversaw

most of the special effects himself. He ended up taking on most of them himself, and I think they had to reshoot a lot of the stuff with the creature later. Yeah. Well, when the creature first appears, the Nazis are raping McKellen's daughter.

Yes. And he just comes as a big blob of smoke. No good. Very bad done. He comes as a big blob of smoke and then he touches McKellen and McKellen turns young. But even before that,

he takes her away. He rescues her. Yeah. And a shot that I wrote down is genuinely beautiful. Sure. He sort of like takes her away. He like rescues her. And like a shot that I wrote down is genuinely beautiful. Sure. Yeah. He sort of like

carries her off into the smoke and it's like very evocative. I like him best when he's smoky. Yeah. I like the smokiness. I like the muscle guy. No, the muscle guy's cool. You're right.

I mean, the muscle guy's cool. He's got the ridges too that you like. Everything about Molisar is cool. You know when you see his like red hand? Yeah, his red hand's good. His sinewy red hand. I wrote down Molisar is cool. You know when you see his red hand? Yeah, his red hand is good. He wrote down Molisar action figure question mark. Okay, so can I tell you how I mostly knew of this movie?

Okay. This would be like, I spent a lot of time in high school, weirdly, on a horror movie message board. Right. Despite not predominantly being a horror guy. And there would always be certain people who were very vocal about wanting a company to make a Molasar action figure. Makes sense.

There was always this group of people, because this was like late 90s, early 2000s, where like Todd McFarlane was making all the horror characters in action figure form for the first time. And there would always be people who would like bombard like the Spawn website with requests for Molasar.

And they'd be like, no one will buy this. We can't produce it. They had the McFarlane leather face. Right. It was, like, all of those characters that, like, finally were, like, being made for collector audiences from, like, horror movies.

And the Movie Maniacs series. And I was on this Movie Maniacs message board that was, like, kind of general movies, but sort of more horror and, like, action figure stuff. And I just saw, like, a thousand fucking, like, not even GIFs. It was, like, pre-promin sort of more horror and like action figure stuff and i just saw like a thousand fucking like not even gifs it was like pre-prominence of gifs just like molossar jpegs and i was like oh apparently some people think this is one of the great monster movie designs and then you watch this movie and you're like the the overlap between people who

like this film and buy action figures has to be the six people on that message board. It cannot be larger than that. I think a Molisar figure would sell now. I would buy it. I think it would sell now. I will say I just Googled Molisar action figure and Google was like, did you mean Pulsar action figure? So Google's definitely not on my side with that. I was trying to find the old forum post and I couldn't do it last night.

It was my searching of this that led me to the merchandise spotlight that I shared. Which we'll get to. But he's very cool. So yes, you're right. He merges with McKellen and then sort of becomes a full figure. And then McKellen is young. Right. The other thing that happens is you now realize why a 70-year-old man was playing a 90-year-old man.

Because he's actually going to spend most of the movie healed. Which is, by the way, identical to what happens in Two Towers when they go to Rohan. He glows up. Oh, right. Bernard Hill gets a D. It's just the same thing. It's like someone who's really old and then suddenly the thing that's... Something happens.

But McKellen is actually sick. He's not cursed. He's sick. He has like an illness. Right. He's 48 even though he looks 78 he has um what's it called a scleroderma scleroderma she's trying to get him to warm it up turn on the furnace um and that's the the idea of mollusk i get the the plot if it's happening at this point which is sort of happening so this is where you start happening so quick this is where you feel like they just like cut out every other scene once again again, Scott Glenn shows up at the inn, meets her and they fuck within 10 seconds.

Right. And the like lighting is completely different. And there's one part where they're sitting inside talking. It looks like it's in like Roadhouse. They're sitting inside talking. And then it just cuts to them sitting outside with like the sunset. And then it just cuts back to them being inside. But it's later.

Yeah. So you're saying right there literally just like cut, cut, cut. but she just like shows up and they're just like there's some guy in your room or something and they immediately have sex have we mentioned his name is gleken his name is gleken his name is gleken imagine the pitch meeting right i'm thinking scott glenn and they're like you're thinking scott glenn for the lead yeah i'm thinking of scott glenn but he's going to be called glaken trismegatus yes he'll fight mollusk he'll fight mollusk and they're like all right can they can he have sex he's like okay fine yeah sure he'll have a set he'll say like i mean glaken fox we should say that he'll say apparently glaken and mollusk have been locked in some centuries old

battle right will that be in the movie depends if you cut that out or not yeah because the idea is not bad which is like molisar shows up seems good here are some of the things he does explodes nazis yeah prevent sexual assault all good things cures illnesses yeah seems like a cool guy rad and he's like yeah okay i may look like a big muscly you know smoke monster but don't worry about it. I'm super chill. Can you just do me one favor and go and get that talisman over there? Maybe pull it out and bring it to me.

And there's no reason Ian McKellen, who's like a good guy in this movie, wouldn't be like, all right. Well, he does sort of get corrupted. It's like a good bargain. He's getting corrupted. A little bit by Molesar. You know, like you make bargains with evil to defeat evil, right? You know, it's a good fairy tale idea. And he's saying this to McKelney.

He's like, you're working with the Nazis. Who are you to say, like... He was in a camp. Right, but that's what he's saying. He's like, are you help... Why are you saving the lives of the people who are trying to kill your people? And this would all be good and make sense if then the movie doesn't... It it just pivots to like scott glenn shows up and blows up mollusk there's no explanation his magic power is his head can turn into the original theatrical one

sheet for thief when he glows it looks like the thief one sheet with like his eyes blown it also looks like the arnie uh model in the terminator when like arnie's like, now I'm going to cut my eye out. And then we cut to the robot in the mirror. One thing at this point is this is about an hour in here. Did you watch this thing, Ben? Okay. I could not follow it.

I thought it was fun. There's fun parts. This is where he looks like that. Yes, he does. So I've written here is like an hour and two minutes in Molesar appears in full. I feel like at this Yes, he does. So I have written here, it's like an hour and two minutes in, Molesar appears in full. I feel like at this point, the movie hasn't sufficiently pivoted at all from the fact that the rules of this world are different now. It has this insane scene where a character sort of talks to a demon monster

from the depths of the keep, and then the movie just goes on. None of that has happened. And everyone is just sort of like what's going on it remains but then there are occasional scenes such as robert prosky drinking a dog's blood yes that suggests that like all kinds of chaos is unfolding yes but no one explains that and there's no like expositional sort of dialogue of someone being like the town's people are really acting up right i was also really also really confused because Ian McKellen's in a wheelchair, but then he's walking now.

Yeah, he gets scared. He gets scared with hiding it from the Nazis. I couldn't follow. No, it's a glow up. It's a glow up. By the way, I mentioned this, I feel like, to both of you at some point, but Ben, no one's brought this up since you said it on the record. You're saying in the Sense and Sensibility episode

that if a character isn't shown to be lowered into the ground with dirt being thrown on their coffin, then you don't know if they're dead. Has changed the way I think about storytelling. I can't believe that hasn't come up again on the show. Because your complaint, if I remember correctly, just for listeners. This guy's on his deathbed. Then what happens if you ever see him again? There's a guy on his deathbed. I think someone's literally giving him last rites. How do I know he's on his deathbed, then what happens if you ever see him again? The first scene is a guy on his deathbed. I think someone's literally giving him last rites.

How do I know he's on his deathbed? Does the bed say death? I believe you used the term, he's on his deathbed. Wait, wait, wait. If the bed said death, would that be acceptable? Yes, then I would know it's a deathbed. Someone just wrote death on the bed and you can put it together. Death plus this thing.

I love the idea that now every time Alex writes a screenplay, he has to do a Ben pass to make sure it flies by Ben logic. Ben has alerted me to her important. I do feel like in this movie where a lot of characters are kind of just said

to have died, this idea of Ben's that like, what happens to those characters? Yeah. But this is, I think, a really important Ben thing that's never come back up.

Right. Unless it comes up in some of the other shows. No, no. I mean, it's a good one to bring up. It's a very good one to bring up. Iconic episode. I could not follow it.

I mean, the problem is that he is our finest film critic, so he throws out so many burning hot sort of points like that. Not even takes, but just burning hot truths. Burning takes. Burning takes. But this movie, like, at this point where the villagers are going crazy, you feel like this could be really cool. Yes, totally.

And there starts being these shots of what looks like a kind of scorched earth. Right. Which is exciting. Which this whole thing was shot in like Wales or something. I mean, yeah, it looks cool. It's like a big quarry. Yeah. And there's like a sense of the evil kind of coming out

and there's these constant discussions of we can't let this escape. Kind of. Kind of. A constant is maybe pushing it. There are discussions keeping in mind everything that I'm talking about happens

within the last 30 minutes. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. I also wrote down

when he's in his full form he looks kind of like Zed from Power Rangers. He definitely looks like Lord Zed who is a muscle forward person. He's like mostly muscle

on the outside. Yeah. It's like what if muscles were your skin. But you talk about like tropes you know what does that take zed i was not allowed to watch power rangers did you see the movie i did i thought it ruled ivan news oh i didn't see that movie i saw the the new one oh you saw the new one right but

you didn't see the classic one with ivan news no was not allowed to see it wow my mom you're allowed to see it now was a fucking cop she was like sure she's a fucking media cop uh-huh i'm allowed to see it now i've uh prioritized other things above mighty morphine power rangers i've seen turbo obviously i've seen turbo potential uh patreon franchise yeah we could do the three uh it's a spicer joint let me give you the three movies he made brian spicer okay it's a hot three. Yeah. Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. The movie 1995.

Uh-huh. McHale's Navy 1997. Cool. For richer or poorer. Also 1997. So he had a two film year. That's the, uh, the Kirstie Alley.

Is it, uh, Tim Allen? It's like a comedy version of witness in which literally halfway in Kirstie Alley goes like, is this just a comedy version of witness? Like she literally just says it out loud. And Tim Allen's like, comedy version of Witness. In which literally halfway in, Kirstie Alley goes like, is this just a comedy version of Witness? Like she literally just says it out loud. And Tim Allen's like, I guess so. God, what a funny joke.

Is that what he says? He's like, sure. He doesn't go. And then I guess Spicer was done. Does he just do like TV now? Has he directed like 17 episodes of iCarly? He, yes. Here are some.

His IMDB is just Magnum PI, Hawaii Five-0, Castle. Bones? Bones Boy? Does he rattle them bones? He did one episode of Bones. He did one Bones. He was one and out on Bones. He does one Bones. I would like to see the Bones Boys.

Dr. Bones and special agent. Mrs. Bones? I don't know anything about Bones.'s the doc dead ted what's her name uh emily she's she's bones but don't call her bones she's always like don't call me bones and then and then detective borianna borianna's who's like a he's like a fbi guy or something and he's always like hey bones and she's like don't call me bones all right that sounds great and they work for the smithsonian went on for 12 years. 12 years.

And they're always dealing with if there's some Bones. You know, it's like, if the cops find like a regular corpse, they're like, okay, let's call CSI. And if they find like a Bones corpse, they're like, we got to get Bones in. And so in comes Bones. I feel like Bones would be good in the keep. You bring him in. I agree.

Oh, this guy got Bonesed. I don't know. This Nazi is Bones. This does feel like a great potential X-Files episode. Yes, definitely. good in the keep you bring him in i agree oh this guy got bonzed i mean this nazi is bones this does feel like a a great potential x-files episode yes definitely cool weird frank lloyd wright design i have a point i'm gonna get yeah background to offer that but uh barry josephson main producer on the tick was also the main producer on every season of bones really and a lot of times he was like the bones guy and uh a lot of times when like things are going wrong on set uh he'll like relate experiences on bones and i always have a hard time not laughing

and it's like no disrespect bones hey sure i mean you you do bones inherently funny bone bones it's the fact that it's called bones because i remember this back season four bones we had a real tough time with this bones feels like a joke show in the BoJack Horseman universe that Mr. Peanutbutter has been on I mean and look he's laughing all the way to the bank

like he bought a house on Bones 200 before well it sounds like he's laughing all the way to the massive lawsuit against the studio excuse me my friend

he won that lawsuit he just made out like a bandit because for some reason Bones was like at the center of all Hollywood economics, right? Rupert Murdoch claimed that despite running for 11 seasons, Bones never turned a profit. We kept re-upping it just thinking like maybe this is the year.

So they did this thing where they like sold the syndication rights to other companies owned by Fox. And sold it for a discount and discount was like we couldn't get a better price so we're losing money on the show right unfortunately hulu really bent us over the barrel and they were like you own hulu what are you talking about and they did like the same thing with fx so barry josephson like filed a lawsuit against uh fox right as disney was gobbling them up and like as of two weeks ago won and is now I don't know going to buy a country it's like the biggest lawsuit

like ever in terms of like what if you just used that money to self finance indefinite seasons of the tick oh god I fucking pray there are a lot of these cases where like someone sues to have the studio open the books because it was like everyone who had profit participation on that show never made money because they were told that the show was losing money.

Oh, so you mean they essentially just got a check for 12 seasons worth of profit. Correct. Woo! Bones. Bones. Did you know that in Bones— Laugh him his way to the bank. I watched two seasons of that.

By the way, there's nothing you could say after that setup that the answer will not be no i did not know that this is gonna blow your mind the like sort of third or fourth most important character angela who's like the i don't know she's like the computer and junior bone or she's a she's a digital bone angela she has this like you know um what do you call it like an iron man style 3d projector thing that she's always fiddling with yeah in the second season finale i think it's sometime she's it's revealed to be the daughter of one of the guitarists from zz top both now she's not like it's not like the actress is the daughter character is revealed character is revealed to

be the daughter of billy gibbons who is playing himself, who is not the actress's father. And this is revealed as like, I never told you, but like Billy Gibbons is my father. And then what? And he like shows up and he's like playing a guitar. What ripple effect does it have on the show? I don't know.

He just shows up and plays tush and gets out. Yeah. He shows up and sings a bar of legs. And like the actress is played by like a Chinese American woman it like it's never explained anyway I just wanted to tell you you got a lot of bones

theories look we can have all the funny laughs about bones than you have about anything I'm really trying to get you guys into this idea one of your favorite filmmakers yeah the keep your leg at a real even pulse and now that bonesones is being discussed, you're going crazy over there. We can mock it all we want.

Emily Deschanel is about to get a cool $40 million check. A lump sum $40 million check. I'd love it. Bones. Bones. Bones. All right, back to The Keep.

Oh, God. Alex, we hung out recently, and we were talking about how, especially with genre films, supernatural concepts, that it's always kind of fun to apply the Twilight Zone test. Yes.

Which is, is there any reason this story couldn't be told in 30 minutes? Right, right, right. You watch Twilight Zone, and those stories are so dense. There's so much going on. Right. There's real characterization. There's like full story arcs.

I mean, the Twilight Zone is good. Right. This is also just an endorsement of the Twilight Zone. Oh, 100%. The X-Files is like that too. You go like, watch a Twilight Zone episode and then watch like a film like this and go like, is this film taking advantage of being full length sure or is it just a spaced out twilight zone episode right and this is like

definitely a movie where like there is a 30 minute version of this that is coherent and as i told you it's called the howling man yes it is in the season two of the twilight zone that's my favorite twilight zone that's your favorite that's my favorite twilight zone the two of the Twilight Zone. That's my favorite Twilight Zone. That's your favorite? That's my favorite Twilight Zone. The part of the Howling Man is that like a guy comes to a monastery and he like finds some guy in the basement and the guy's like, these people have me trapped here. Let me out. This is crazy. These people are insane.

These monks are mad. Sure. Then he goes up to them and he's like, so you have this guy trapped in your basement. Should I let him out? And they're like, no, that's the devil. And he's like, that's not possible. Just because're like no that's the devil and he's like that's not possible just because he like doesn't believe in the devil or he's just like there's that's just some guy it's just some guy right and they're like you have no idea what it took to get him here he's

been here for a really long time don't let him out weird that no one's posted at the door but sure well there's all these monks there and the whole thing is him like talking to this guy about whether or not these monks are crazy or this guy is actually the devil. And it's very similar to this. I love the idea of something. It's such a good idea. It's amazing. And the show does it in like 25 minutes and it's perfect and has the best ending.

And it's just about like trapping evil. It's about whether or not you believe in it. Have you guys ever seen Season of the Witch? The Cage movie? No, I have never seen that. I have seen the Vin Diesel movie what's that last witch hunter that one right which is based off his dungeons and dragons campaign from high school right uh season of which i love it's like uh nicholas cage and ron perlman as like buddy knights yes i remember adam pally on a podcast once who you know your friends uh telling a story about how ron perlman at one point just goes, oh, fuck.

And he's like, did anyone even pretend that this was set in Europe? There's like a big running device in the movie. Did they just decide not to? There's a big running like device in the movie that like any time one of them saves the other person's life or like does a cool move. They go like next round of beers on me. Sure. I know beer existed medieval times no one was saying that no one's going hey i'll get the next round right

there's a lot of like anachronistic shit like that but they're essentially like it's kind of like a like a robin hood men in tights yes it rules i think it's super fucking good it's a dominic senna sure and pearlman and swordfish nick cage you must love Swordfish I haven't seen Swordfish in a while let's go watch Swordfish right now wasn't there some joke at some point that

I forget who I was making this with we like to make actors audition with we did this on the podcast that's why I was thinking of it alright carry on

we talked about Swordfish but now Griffin knows this the new thing I like actors who audition with is Kevin Spacey's Let Me Be Frank if you can make that thing saying you can do anything it's like it's like putting like the weight they have to do the accent of

course how do i know if they're good so it's like at the beginning of the speech is like in foghorn like horn voice like is of course how do i know if they're a good act i don't want to see what you've got i want to see your capacity for for mimicry right right but also that is literally like the swordfish challenge of giving hugh jackman a blow job and pointing a gun in his head and being like hack into the pentagon right now right like it's like there's so many strictures being placed why did swordfish come up before i don't remember it's an incredibly important piece of 2000s filmmaking uh it's like putting the donut uh weights on the baseball bat right when you're practicing so that once you remove them, you can only hit homers.

If someone can do Let Me Be Frank, they can do anything. I was so happy that Let Me Be Frank turned up in an ad read. I wasn't. When Griffin just debuted that. Excuse me, I believe you're mistaken. When Foghorn Leghorn walked into this office, a man who has nothing in common with Kevin Spacey. Alright, what were you going to say about Season of the Witch?

Not even a man, a chicken, I say, I say, I say. Season of the Witch. Oh, there's a rooster, I say, I say, I say. Bones. In Season of the Witch, Nicolas Cage, Ron Perlman are like buddy knights. The opening is like them going through different battles, through the Crusades and shit.

Just being like, next round on me! And then you see them drinking beer and then you see them in their next battle and it's like, next round's on you! Drinking beer. And then they need a job. And so they get a job where they're like, look, we got this witch. She fucking sucks. Can you just transport her? It's a midnight run. Like they essentially

it's a midnight run set up where they're like, here's a witch in a cage on wheels. Can you bring her to the temple we need to bring her to to kill her? And the witch is Claire Foy. Claire Foy, yes. In a really good performance. A young Claire Foy. It's like one of her first movie roles.

You're just a bunch of boys. Does she say that? Yes. So the movie is them making it through the swamp and the marsh trying to get to this church. And she's trying to convince them the whole way, like Twilight Zone style, that she isn't a witch. And these guys are being tested constantly of, are we becoming the executors of an inhumane sort of witch hunt, literally? Or is this a witch who's manipulating us with her wiles and the twist at the end of the movie which is one of my favorite twists of all time is that she's the

devil oh she is the devil the twist is she's not a witch right witches don't exist but she does have powers she's the devil and that's why they were confused anything that's like any i mean again this goes back to like so and so is keeping something in. It's like anything that plays with this is inherently exciting. Rules. But could be done

in the Twilight Zone runtime. But this one I mean I'll say this movie gets a lot out of its mileage. You better be talking about The Keep now.

You can't still be talking about Season of the Witch. It's still on Season of the Witch. They go on a lot of little adventures. I like in Season of the Witch much as I like in The Keep much as I like in what was it? The Howl? The Howling Man. of the Witch much as I like in The Keep much as I like in

what was it? That's right. The Howl. The Howling Man. Much like in Bones. Much like in The Howling Man. In Bones it's easy top. I always like the idea of like

you didn't even see all the work we had to put in to getting this guy in here. Right. That's always the best part. Exactly. It's like you just see like the edifice

we've had to build around him or whatever. Especially if you walk in and muck up the whole situation and that's like the underground realm here is very well designed it is

and very cool it looks great and it's very strange to think about how they got Molasar in there and what happened to his other body yeah

but somehow Galick is that his name? Glaken Glaken I don't know how you pronounce it he's like

back he just like is back now he's in love with the daughter and McKellen's like, you have to help me kill the Nazis. And then they're just teaming up. Right.

Like, well, it's like, he says he's here to destroy the beast implying that like, this is this long back and forth. Right. Right. And he has to do this dance forever.

You and I, there's that moment where like, and, and Mollis are saying to McKellen, like, get this, you got to pick up this talisman and like bring it out of here bring it to me right like he's he's tasked him with that even though molasar is a body at this point he's a body but he can't touch it i think is the idea

uh meanwhile glockin has sex with eva the daughter and they're in love now they're in love now and they go up to the keep and then the Nazis like shoot at Glocken. Because McKellen tips them off. And he turns green. He's sort of like... Right. McKellen is kind of getting corrupted by Molisar. Yes, very corrupted.

And then he falls down and turns green. He turns green. He has like green squibs and green eyes. Yeah, and then he's falling and he's like kind of glowing green. Yeah, and then he's kind of out of the action for a while. And now the town is like destitute. The town is

everyone's dead or run away or something. It's like a reasonable level. Which none of which you've seen which is weird. Except for Robert Prosky drinking a dog's blood for one minute.

And then from here on out it's all it's all talisman. No I'm not. I mean well yes I am. It's all like talisman business here. A lot of

slow walking to a talisman. Griffin does seem sad that we stopped at Messi's. That's a really good movie and I wish he hasn't seen it seen him no i'm sorry there was a time sensitive uh i wrote the talisman looks like a flashlight it does look like a flashlight and then all scott glenn needs to do is sort of push it in to another flashlight yeah to create i guess like you know the ultimate nullifier right to create the weapon that will end all you yeah somewhere in here I like this

is when I noticed that like we've seen these sort of demonic supernatural elements and then there's like five minutes of just Nazis fighting about their chain of command yes yeah there's that whole thing where Gabriel burn is like the answer is definitely kill more villagers and Juergen Prochnow

is sort of trying to be like can't we not be Nazis you know he has is sort of trying to be like can't we not be nazis you know he has this sort of like argument of like look jesus like i know we're evil but you know at this point it's like we have like an argument over nazism this is like a michael man thing where like this kind of relationship of power and authority and corruption is of interest to him sure but the movie has gone so far past this right the movie at this point is an elemental battle between good and evil. Which ends with him dying. But that's where you can see this being

a three hour movie even if it was a shambly assembly because you imagine there's a movie where he gets to explore every one of these things equally. Perhaps. I wrote down here do you think playing Nazis will ever be subjected to PC equality?

Sure. You mean like you have to be a Nazi to play Nazis? You have to be a pureblood. There's so much like you have to be you know like, no you have to be but like people haven't been given a chance to tell their own stories so don't cast Scarlett Johansson in whatever. I think it's about

time we stop, we start stopping Scarlett Johansson from playing. I think it's about time we stop. We start stopping Scarlett Johansson from playing Nazis. I think that's hit its expiration. I like played too many. The Spirit. Sure. Black Widow. Nazi Silken Floss.

Nazi adjacent. Do you think this is coming? Because watching Gabriel Byrne be a Nazi and then thinking that McKellen could either be a concentration camp victim or a Nazi. Yes. Will this just be something that no one cares about? Because there's no one speaking up on behalf of... I think people prefer the rule of Nazis can only be played by people

who definitely can't have been Nazis or be related to Nazis. Because when Bruno Ganz played Hitler, it was such a story where it was like, oh, a German guy's playing him? I don't know. That seems touching. The guy in this movie, one of the other guys who I thought looked

familiar, and then I looked him up, and he was Dietrich in Raiders of the Lost Ark. And I was like, oh, this guy was just the go-to sort of Aryan Nazi dude in the 90s and the 80s. Who is that? Do you remember his name? Find it right now. Wow. Yes, Wolf Collar.

Right. Wolf Collar. Right. Right. Born in 1940? Okay. He also played Uriand Dropov in Firefox. Okay. And he played a Nazi doctor in Sherlock Holmes, A Game of Shadows. Yeah, but his IMDb photo is literally just him in Nazi uniform.

Yeah, that's going to get you. That's his headshot. But there is like, you know, that's like a real durable's his headshot but there is like you know that's like a real a durable kind of character actor in a certain kind of movie at this time it's just like you know the nazi kind like klaus kinski played many nazis 100 do you think anyone will ever speak up and be like gabriel bern is a nazi that's not fair let let that role go to like a true blooded arian don't like like if they're playing a priest, yeah, call Gabriel Byrne, but like,

this is unacceptable. You cannot. Wolf Collar is a German-born character actor who, thanks to his height, six foot two, and blue eyes, was often cast as a Nazi

or unsympathetic German character in his career. Like, how many Nazis did Rucker Hauer play? Many. Unsympathetic German characters. Rucker Hauer, who of course is done he's like an oxymoron right he played the fucking german commander in wonder woman like this guy's still

mostly doing still that's world war one world war two militant germans right just slap a uniform nazi officer in cockneys versus zombies gabriel burns haircut this movie is also london yeah it's also very extreme gabriel burns haircut is very and he's like he's so sallow skinned i don't know gabriel burn feels a little lost in this movie there's another movie i just from this era that he's so go excalibur yes oh yeah which is incredible it where but that he's dialed to like 100 and that way he's sort of playing the rake fines in this and he's not the right energy for that type of role. Yeah.

It might also just be weird because it's Gabriel Byrne. Right. Right. Right. He's still around. Gabriel Byrne. He got lit on fire just recently. Lit?

What do you mean got lit on fire? Hereditary. Oh, oh. He goes up in flames. It's great. Yeah, no, Gabriel Byrne's fine. Yeah. Okay.

I got worried for a second. Oh, I think as far as I know, he's doing okay. Lovely man with a kind soul. I don't want to... Mary Talon Barkin. Was. For many years. Right.

Yeah, I feel like we're pretty much... Well, because once... Because then there's this big fight. ...Clacken shows up, there's no fight. Clacken is sort of killed. He explodes seemingly, but then he's back. Then he comes back. Grabs like a pink spear.

Yeah. And then they fight. Plugs the talisman in. Ian McKellen sort of has that late revelation of like, oh, you're evil, right? Like, I shouldn't be doing this. Like, you're bad. Right. He's like, hey, you shall not

pass. He very much says that. You shall not pass. And then apparently there was like some battle they were going to film that they didn't have the money for. Yeah, this is interesting. I watched the extended ending on YouTube. Oh, there's an extended ending on YouTube. Yeah. It's not any of this like special effects stuff.

Right. By the way, for people, both of them just grabbed devices. Excuse me. I'm Googling the ending. It's like, apparently the TV broadcast included some footage that had been used in the

trailers. Weird. Which plays it, which by the way, like what a fucking time to be alive where that was just like if you watch something on tv you might see you might just see like 20 extra minutes that someone had for some reason found there's something going on here where like scott glenn is sort of like so basically like through space so the movie like ends with a with a split screen

right and then basically what this extended ending is it's just like another five minutes okay where she sort of goes from that split screen and then there's like a bit more with Glackin who sort of has survived and they walk off together

in a sort of like tacked on happy ending sort of thing where he's not he's not trapped in the keep with Molasar

in this sort of extended television ending because of this several new endings had to be filmed long after the crew and original cinematographer left the production. Originally, Mann had

two ideas for the film's climax. One with a battle between Glack and Amolosar on top of the keep, one taking place inside the keep. The original climax that Mann chose involved Glack and Amolosar in an epic effects-laden battle on top of the keep tower that ends with Glack opening an energy portal that blasts forth from the ground

of the keep. It was to be a dimensional portal, energy portal that blasts forth from the ground of the keep. Right. It was to be a dimensional portal, which would have had similar effects to the Stargate in 2001. After that, Glackin would materialize in the cavern below the keep by a pool and be reawakened as a mortal man. Okay. Maybe Scott Glenn. With the constant production extensions, film's already well over budget.

Paramount refused to pay for the filming of the additional footage, so the simplified ending man put together for the release was a weak somewhat unsatisfactory and satisfactory compromise the other thing it says here is he had originally built mollusk art as an animatronic and they spent however fucking much money building the animatronic right and brought it to set and filmed it and then he was like nah i don't like this and then they had to start over make it a suit for a performer to wear and then reshoot all that shit uh that sounds bad they shot for 22 weeks i would look at 22 weeks is long right i'm not in the biz that's almost half a year yeah that's a it's a fair amount of time to sink into a movie five month shoot that basically will never be complete yeah and there's you know 90 minutes

and grossed uh three million dollars but yeah like you know the endings are sort of like they're all unsatisfying they are um but then the whole town kind of reverts back like all the him being blown up is all that town needed i mean it still has the issue that it's under nazi control yes that's gonna be most of the nazis have been killed sure maybe they'll send some more i kind of like the that town needed. I mean, it still has the issue that it's under Nazi control. Yes. That's going to be... Most of the Nazis have been killed. Sure. Maybe they'll send some more. I kind of like the idea

that Hitler makes it his number one priority to figure out what's going on in this keep and is just like throwing Nazis at the keep. Like, that would be a good sequel. I like any...

Return to the keep. I basically just like any The Mummy style you shouldn't have picked up that fucking brick you're ruined like i'm just always into that i love that in the mummy the the stephen summers mummy so much of the plot is him needing to get his internal organs back because each american took one jar and he has to like annihilate them one by one like movies need more of that they need like villain business before he turns into a big thing

i also love the thing in this movie where it's just like scott glenn is awakened and then like every 10 minutes you cut to him on like a motorcycle or him at like a diner on the side of the road right they're like where are you heading he's like somewhere important like it's just this looming threat of like the guy's coming the guy's coming and then he shows up and he's just like power sword vaguely scatman crothers and The Shining and his sort of approach. The biker in Raising Arizona, where you're just constantly cutting to him getting closer and closer. I think one of the deleted things that I read about online was that he charters that boat from Greece and then kills the people on the boat, and there was a whole...

Like, the sequence showing that he's sort of like, something bad as well. That he's like the other half of Molisar. What a weird fucking movie. You never really know what Molisar wants. As you say, he wants to get out. He is killing Nazis,

which is valid. Home, family. But yeah, that's a good point. It's not like Molisar says like, once I'm out of this keep, hoo boy, I'm going to kill so many Nazis.

He doesn't have like a pitch. I'm finally going to write my novel. Well, this does happen in the Twilight Zone episode where there's a sense of like, you know, if he gets out of here, X will happen. Sure. Right, right, right. It is very exciting when they sort of, you know, the idea of there being a keep is very exciting.

Well, all of these things that we're talking about. It just looks so cool. The sense of looming progression, objectives that everyone's circling around trying to figure out how to realize and complete. Sounds like it would be perfectly suited. I'm losing my ability to speak English. It sounds like it would be perfectly suited for a board game. Ah.

I lowered my glasses. He did. You're in luck, Griffin, because I found such a board game. Whoa, what? Can we play it? There's a fucking Keep board game. They thought kids were going to want to play the Keep at home.

It's not on eBay, but there's a thing I found that I sent about it. Yeah, like Board Game Geek. But it's not, you know, there isn't one on eBay for $5. But it seems to be one of those 80s board games that's just kind of like squares and pieces. Yeah, there's a maze. You move some pieces around. You got to stop the monster from getting out. A modern board game of the Keep would be very exciting.

But that would be like an adult, serious... It would be like the adult fairy tale of board games. There was a board game and there was also a role-playing game. There was a Dungeons & Dragons style role-playing game. Guys, should I buy the Keep board game? Should I buy it for the...

Live show! It's on there. Board Game Geek. That's where you gotta go. playing guys should i buy the keep board game should i buy it for the okay live show and they were 40 bucks oh it is a board game geek that's where you gotta go david just pulled his wallet out it is in the board game or the role playing game oh you want me to get the role playing game maybe i'll get one you get the other what is what has been playing just found a board game called too many bones okay too many okay do you think that they were really counting on this movie like hitting that they had this merchandise i mean this is it was just like they took they brought in the merch guy because we're talking this movie's coming out what five years after

star wars six years yeah so then now there's like a paramount merch guy and they're like here's the script what do you think and he's like uh a board game like he he's they're sort of like you think toys and he's like we can't make nazi action figures okay all right toys are out toys what about molossar it's like no no one wants the big main demon no but you would do you think they're like what about molossar and he's like sure what does he look like and they're like michael man won't tell us so that all right okay the molossar is out and so he's like it's like a keep it's like a maze board game like i guess we do like snails pace race but it's like it's like, this is an R-rated movie,

right? Like an R-rated adult fairy tale. It's 100%. Yeah, it has boobs. It has explosions. And like, they still were just like,

we'll make a game. We'll make a board game. I just placed a bid on the Keep role-playing. All right, so you're after the role-playing game. Can I just redo this

from the back? You guys are going to own the world's majority of Keep merchandise. I just like, in the board game, there's like character cards. I do like those cards. So this is compatible with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. You can use this with Dungeons & Dragons.

With Advanced? So that's second edition. It says Advanced. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm not as good. Because I can play Dungeons & Dragons, but I'm not as good at the older editions. Well, let's play the Keep. It's produced by a company called RoleAids,

which I imagine they probably changed their name a couple years later. But here's what they say. The Keep is a faithful and detailed fantasy role-playing adventure based on the major Paramount Pictures film release of the same name. Not only will it pit you against the forces

of death and evil, but also against the might of the German SS. The Keep features a new set of rules and charts that let you include modern weaponry and tactics and fantasy adventures designed for three or six characters. I mean, that sounds great. The thing is that this movie, I mean, again, I really did enjoy this viewing of it. Sure. It sounds great on paper. And when Anna was like, so why didn't we like it last time?

great on paper and when anna was like so why didn't we like it last time it's just like well i think when you hear that there's this kind of like vaguely lost michael mann movie right about nazis and this big romanian thing and it's got a tangerine dream score and you watch it and you'd be like well it turns out that everyone was wrong this is one of the best movies of the 80s the score is so weird because it's very like melancholy like it's not like a thriller score at all. I did a bit of Tangerine Dream score research and it says that the soundtrack for The Keep. Yeah. First of all, it has like this whole complicated history of never being properly released. Because I was like looking for these tracks. So there's this whole complicated history of the soundtrack of this movie where like it was based on previous Tangerine Dream music.

So neither Paramount nor Tangerine Dream owned it. And it was based on previous Tangerine Dream music so neither Paramount nor Tangerine Dream owned it and it was therefore never released and every version of the Keep has had different score in it like I guess if this print screened it would have a different score than what we saw on streaming and the VHS supposedly also has a different score and then they never

sold it and then like a couple years ago or 10 years ago they sold 150 copies of it just at some concert. Whoa. Which is very highly sought after. They just like self-produced. They were just like, we're finally going to release the score of the key.

But then you look at it on Wikipedia and it says, this is like Tangerine Dreams 19th score and 47th album. Yeah. They have a hundred fucking albums. They, you know, like that. They just do that

every two minutes. Is it a Tangerine Dream that's coming to the studio? I hope that's the setup for an ad read. There's a Tangerine Dream. It's a theremin. Yeah, but I saw

Tangerine Dream a few years ago before one of the main members That's good. That was good. It's good. Go ahead. One of the main members

died like recently. Oh, of Patriot Dream? Yes. Two or three years before that, I saw them at a church on the Upper West Side, which was very fun. That's cool. Oh, Jesus. Their past members list is fairly long.

Yes. Everything, every list on their Wikipedia is long. Look how many lineups they've had. My God. And yet, it's always three people. Maybe four or five people. Has there? Like, this is their lineups they've had my god and yet it's always three people maybe four or five people has their like this is their lineups graph it looks like like i don't know like an snl cast and then that one that's unbroken must be the one that just died until it's it ends like her

froze froze uh who did just die this is like a very you know like what i love about stuff like this and sort of like claiming this is like you know i feel like it's. This is like a very, you know, like what I love about stuff like this and the sort of like claiming this is like, you know, I feel like it's hard to understand like a Michael Mann filmography without the curiosity of curiosities.

Not every director has a great curiosity. Sure. Right. Right. I feel like a lot do, but this is like a curiosity to rule them all.

Here's a very serious question. He even did the curiosity big. Right. That's the thing like yeah he can't do anything but like as i said of like the friedkin curiosities of the guardian and deal of the century like those are unwatchable for sure but if you do friedkin i'll do both of those okay we'll do it as a double bill yeah no at kim's we had a sealed used copy of deal of the century for the entire time i worked there wow wow and no one ever

cracked for three years and if you had no one ever bought it right mollisar would have escaped that was actually it they trapped him in a dvd of deal of the century one thing that's which kim's did you work at the one on st mark's the real one yeah you're ready did you go to the jersey one no because there was one in jersey maybe around the time you were living there no i didn't i wasn't familiar but I went to Kim's all the time. I rule. I went for records. Yeah.

That's why. The vinyl was on my floor for a couple years. Oh, word. I almost definitely, I don't know if we've talked about this, I almost definitely traded in DVDs. I was my, you were the buyer. Almost definitely. I did a lot of buying.

Yeah. If you came during the day. How long did you work at Kim? Three years. Almost exactly. Yeah, I almost definitely sold you like season two of Seinfeld. did a lot of buying yeah if you came during the day how long did you work at Kim three years almost exactly yeah I almost definitely sold you like season two of Seinfeld

well so that I could buy whatever season three of Seinfeld yeah well season two was on the season one and two were a single package

they were because season one's only four episodes but you remember another thing that we had that sat around forever was like I forget what they were

but it was like these DVDs it was like AFI presents and it would just be like a one-hour thing with some filmmaker. Okay. But there's like one of Michael Mann that sat around. They were like a talk? Where he's just like. Yeah, it's just like a sort of extended special feature. You know what he looks like?

Look him up. He looks exactly like you think he looks. Yeah, he looks like a lawman from the 19th century. Oh, you know what I think those are from? Because I'll sometimes see those outtakes on YouTube. When AFI would do their 100 years, 100 blank specials, they would pick filmmakers, sit them down and be like, we have an hour of your time.

Pick 12 movies you want to talk about from this list. So they would cut in them as talking heads on whichever ones they pick. Like I've seen 40 minutes of Spike Lee being like pass, pass. Like they're reading

it off to him. This is my thing. Yeah. You have to do them all. It's the De Palma thing. You have to do them all. I don't care. No, because they're not

talking about their own films. They're talking about the AFI list and they're going like Spike Lee, do you want to talk about the searchers? And he's like,

no, next. In terms of like the Michael Mann director cut, like he seems to have said, as we alluded to earlier, that this one's not worth it. It would be too difficult. The materials are too disparate.

This is exactly what I want to see. The key director's cut. Well, it seems like one of those things. It almost seems like one of those things that would be done by fans. Yes. Like a fan reassembled. Like the thief and the cobbler.

There'd be some Kickstarter or something. That's how it would happen. There was a Kickstarter to make a documentary about the making of the keep. I feel like I saw things about that. It might exist. It raised a fifth of its asked for budget. Right, that's the thing.

The keep is just never going to be important enough. But people are rabid. It's just a small hide. But it's very small. Do you remember the Nightbreed director's just a small but it's very small yeah do you remember like the nightbreed director's cut a couple years ago there was like all the like as it got similar to the metropolis thing as it got more extended the footage got lower quality right to the point that like 20 minutes in this thing that was like released and available for sale yeah was off of a vhs with time

code on it oh wow you can't even get the time code off? No, it's burned into the only copy of the dailies that Clive Barker had in his house. The Manhunter director's cut, like Shout Factory just put Manhunter out, and the director's cut is noted. Additional scenes are in standard definition. You know what's very interesting?

I don't think he ever did a full, proper recut. I'll say this about the idea like a full proper recut. I'll say this about the idea of a Michael Mann and a sort of tinkerer. Thinking about like, you know, just like the power of DVD, as we all know and love. Love it. Like, director's cut is a very exciting phrase. Because it makes you feel like there's something different. Sure.

But nothing was ever more exciting than the phrase alternate ending. Yes. Alternate ending is the best one. Which is usually in a circular sticker or something right like it's like yeah the biggest selling point but to say that the keep has multiple possible endings what's the last movie that did that like an alternate like because i remember like napoleon dynamite came back with a new ending you know like where movies would do that occasionally where they'd be like it would be re-released in theaters and like hey come and there's a new ending well Avatar was re-released

but not with a new ending I'm just talking like as a DVD I know what you're talking about but I'm thinking of this gimmick I Am Legend yes and that was for Blu-ray

but they were like we pointedly have a totally different ending because people were so unsatisfied they like finished the effects on the other ending 28 days later

this isn't an ending but you know they just re-released Star is Born with like new songs they did it's a yeah it's a very old-timey gimmick which i weirdly even though i love that movie like had no interest in attending i was like i already did that like i'm very emotional about that but i don't need to not a real star head well that's how i feel about miami vice too where it was like there's a director's cut i was immediately

suspicious i'm like i don't understand how you would improve that movie does michael mann still hold your faith at this point 100 even though he you know sort of tinkers with and occasionally fouls up his movies i mean people say oh yeah i don't mind that i the black hat is better right have you seen the black hat just makes it make sense right it's like he put it back in the original order okay the clock is ticking what is that a countdown to it's Ben kicking us out of the studio. I mean, maybe by the time this episode posts, there'll be more news. I'm trying to get the Black Hat director's cut for you guys. Okay.

Did you know that I was doing this? No, I told you that. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because we want to be able to screen the Black Hat director's cut. That's our dream for the end of this. I can follow up, but I'm trying to track it down. Right, yeah. From someone at Legendary. I mean, I the Black Hat. That's our dream for the end of this. I can follow up but I'm trying to track it down. From someone at Legendary who produced Black Hat.

It's not the person responsible for losing $100 million on Black Hat but it still works there. Black Hat's the one where it's like every other man movie you're like look you know it didn't make a ton but Black Hat's the one where you're like oh Jesus. It made nine? Did it make nine? It like opened in January and I think January 5th or something. It opened like nine did it make nine it like opened in january

and i think january 5th or something right it opened like first week of january i think it it opened in like the kevin hart comedy slide i was overshooting that's a stunt it crawled to eight it made 80059 baby you know opening weekend was four or five? 3.9. Wow. I mean, that's catastrophic. A movie directed by Michael Mann, starring Thor, came out while we were doing this podcast, right before we started it. Yeah. In January, released by Universal. I saw it at the Court Street Theater with no one in attendance.

I remember going to see it during whatever that was like the last major snowstorm where people are like you might not be able to leave your house for three days. Right. And I was like fuck I want to see Black Hat

before the snowstorm hits and I went to the theater and was like I might get snowed in. I might have to spend two days in the Magic Johnson Theater and that's a

that's a chance I'm willing to take. But this is like this really refutes my notion that he's like become like one of the guys. It was weird how no one

showed up for that fucking movie. I mean, that's a bigger bomb than I think any other major director has had in the last decade. That's one of the biggest bombs of all time. It's a huge,

it's an indefensible bomb. Because it truly was an over hundred million dollar budget, right? It listed as 70. I think it probably. It may have cost more. Yeah. But it also,

and then he was like, a director's cut. It airs on FX only one time. He screened it once at BAM. Screened it at BAM one time. And not even FX, he put it on Epix. No, I recorded it off FX.

With ads. Crazy. And I watched it. That's the only time I've seen the director's cut. It moves a crucial event from the end of the movie to the beginning. Right, which at the beginning of the movie, but there's also, right. We'll talk about it on the blackhead we'll talk about episodes

one thing i did think during this uh ben obviously the clock's gone off so we only have another hour yeah but um here's okay sometimes i like to think of the new clock sometimes i like to think of over time clock it's hit zero and now it's going up sometimes i like to think of fictional movies. Sure. Like movies that like, oh man, that would be great. I have one that I think will excite both of you. Perhaps David slightly more so.

Collateral is what? 2003? I was going to say four. Yeah, it might be four. Michael Mann's Mission Impossible 3. Oh, my God. Like, could you imagine a better movie

existing in the world than if Tom Cruise was floated at some point? If Tom Cruise was just like, I'm going to do what I do. You're my guy now. I loved making Collateral. You're going to fix

Mission Impossible. Like, can you imagine how good, because my friends and I, we used to always say that the best thing would have been if after Titanic as a palate cleanser, Cameron made Mission Impossible. Like, can you imagine how good, because my friends and I, we used to always say that the best thing would have been if after Titanic as a palate cleanser,

Cameron made Mission Impossible 2. Oh my God. And just like totally analog action movie and it would be profound. Yeah. But now this has replaced my ideal, all my fake movies are Mission Impossible sequels. Wait, three was Fincher.

No. Originally, then Fincher quit. They announced Fincher. Carnahan. Before that, it was Fincher. Fincher was developing three. They announced Then Fincher quit. They announced Fincher. Carnahan. Before that, it was Fincher. Fincher was developing 3. They announced it. He quit. He was like, I don't want to be doing franchise shit.

Then I feel like there was a point where a couple names got thrown out. I feel like I remember Mann being on that list. And then Cruise saw Narc, hired Carnahan. Carnahan was two months away from filming. He quits. Had Cruise seen Collateral, though? That seems like the obvious. Well, this is around the time

he's making Collateral. Yeah, I mean, it just seems Carnahan was hired after Cruise saw Narc and was like, what a movie. Right. And that's O2. Yes. I feel like that's when it happened. I feel like after Carnahan quit, at a moment there was like... Because Carnahan quits in July

2004, so that's right when Collateral's coming out. I feel like Cruise put him on a list for a moment. But here's... This is the re... No, because it's like... 2000... Carnahan quits July 2004. And there's that famous story of like, Cruise saw Alias, like he like holed up in his house

and watched it all and called Abrams almost immediately. Yeah. Like the only reason he wouldn't do this to man is they had just finished a movie. Yeah. Right. And at the collateral premiere,

I think is when Jamie Foxx buttonholes man. And it's like, we should do Miami vice and pitches him on this whole thing with like a license plate as the final shot before they cut to credits. Do you know, but we'll talk about this on the Miami. Jamie Foxx had like this hole where he was like, here's how we began.

Like he like, he's yelling at my, and Michael, man's like, sure. Let's do it. Put headphones on Michael, man.

It was playing Lincoln park. Yeah. This will change your life. I, you know, but, but you're right because Carnahan is like, you know,

when I list Michael, man, like it's right. Like, it's like, if you're going for that energy, if that right, it's jazzed on.

I just like, I just, there's nothing that I think is a more tantalizing, non-existent movie at that time when there's really not a lot of special effects and he wouldn't have done them anyway and those movies don't have them. But he's never done anything like that.

What's amazing looking at his filmography after watching this is like, everyone feels like a passion project. Yes, right. Which is crazy. You can't say that in a very meaningful way. Everyone feels like he passion project. Yes, right. Which is crazy. You can't say that to very many filmmakers. Everyone feels like he swindled a studio into giving him money. Yes.

Right? Like, it's like that he tricked them somehow. Yes, somehow. And, like, everyone feels absolutely like the thing he wanted to make at that time. Even this, to some strange extent. This is the weirdest one, though. What are you looking at? No, I was just trying to see if I could find any moment where Michael Mann was rumored for one of the Mission Impossibles.

But it does feel like now that Mission Impossible has become one director's franchise and it's moved away from the new guy every time, it does feel like that's the only way that Michael Mann would get a movie made ever again. Well, it's sort of like how Fisher— If it was part of a franchise like that where the actor was like, I demand that you hire. Right. Like if Hemsworth was like Michael Mann is doing Thor 4 not opposed

but see that doesn't seem like he would he can make it an adult fairy tale about fascism actually now you've changed my mind but no yeah the man what was I going to say yeah it's like World War Z 2 like that's how Fincher was going to get back in.

Right. But also, like, Michael Mann's like 76. He's 78. He's old. Wow. He just put out a book. That's why he's on Instagram. He's promoting his book.

And then you're like, the last time he tried to do TV, too many horses died. Like, it's not even like, well, I'll just go back to TV. Like, he's done TV. That's not exciting to him. There's nothing like luck where they were like, a horse died and people were like, oh, that's sad.. That's not exciting to him. There's nothing like Luck, where they were like, a horse died and people were like, oh, that's sad. And then like two days later,

it's like, like three more horses died? Like, it wasn't like one more horse. Sounds weirdly like the plot of The Keep. Yeah. It's just like these, they just keep dying. Kind of, right?

But like, oh, have you seen Luck? No. God, it's weird. Nolte? Nolte and Hoffman just go, like, there's no plot. It's so weird. The craziest thing is that

they renewed it right they unrenewed it started season two they filmed for like six weeks and went like I'm sorry too many horses are dying like the bad press was coming out about the horses having died while season one was airing they were like horses be damned we're going ahead and then they started new season five horses died in like halfway through the first episode, and they were like, we're cutting our losses. Because Mercedes Rule, there was like a deadline story that was like, Mercedes Rule is starting her comeback.

She's largely been off the screen, and now she's coming back. She's the new co-lead of season two of Luck, and in six weeks they were like, JK, JK, LOL, LOL. They were like, JK, LOL, LOL were like jk lol yeah told you jk jk yeah they um they uh tell me you love me and he what he directed the pilot and then was kind of like an overseer was an overseer he only directed the pilot amy leader direct an episode terry george like he brought in you know philip noyce directed an episode once you get to it I hope you cover

like his weird kind of 2000s producing career yeah well we got to like The Aviator The Aviator right he wanted to make he just seems like

one of those guys that like develops way too much yes and then doesn't end up making half of what he and he used to be able to do that

because so many A-list people wanted to work with him that he could set it up and they would buy it at the promise of you got Brad Pitt attached. The other thing is that all of his premises, if you give them as an elevator pitch. Ben looks so happy right now. The keep.

Keep on keeping on. All of his movie premises in the form of an elevator pitch sound commercial, especially combined with those actors. Yes, and then he ruins them by making artistic movies. Right, but you understand why people kept on giving him a hundred million dollars because they're like,

it's like a gangster movie with Johnny Depp in 2010? No. Nine? That has to work. Christian Bale. Right. That movie has one of the

insane casts. Of course. That movie is crazy. That movie has such a good cast. I can't wait to see. That's the one I've only seen once. Me too. That's the only one I've only seen once. Me too. I'm excited to rewatch it.

I liked it a lot at the time. When we did our little series when Black Hat came out, we didn't revisit it. In my famed spreadsheet, it is Christian Bale's only nomination. What? Isn't that crazy?

You don't like Bale that much, right? I like him fine. That's crazy. That's the only time you've nominated him. It's tough to make the five. Ben's leaning that microphone like he's Tom Jones. It's tough to make the five.

Tough to make those five. David, do me a favor and eat a bowl of farts. Tough to make the five. Tough to make those five. David, do me a favor and eat a bowl of farts. Tough to make the five? Tough to make the Sims five. Oh my God. He is so proud as he says that to me.

And poor Ben looks like he was going to say Ben was about to. What were you going to say, Ben? I want to sort of on the record say why I think This one's coming out in May.

Yeah, I think that man It's going to be May. May the 4th, May the 5th. Because I don't know enough about if he has like he's had hits but we're talking about his flops. And I'll just say

I feel like his pseudo intellectualism is like this thing where it's like it's not for smart people but dumb people don't really like it. That's the best way

I could explain. That's very apt. He's, you know, these are smart movies are not like they all they're also kind of about little boy subjects like they're about like like cowboys and indians and like cops and robbers i mean collateral is like kind of rough around the edges right the pitch of collateral is something a child would come up with like what if a cab driver like like, you know, that's a great pitch, but it is a kid pitch. Right.

Kid pitch. That's a new idea. Is there a blender in the keep? No, I mean, there's nothing nearly there. Is there any blenders you've discovered recently that you felt were particularly blendy? No, I feel like you should keep a lookout for them. He's too smart for stuff like that, though.

Yeah, man is not really blendery. Yeah, you're not going to find a lot of blenders. You're not going to find a lot of of like uh super hammy performances in these not gonna find any you're not gonna find any jokes in any of these movies well there will be jokes but they'll be delivered with utter seriousness like there's a few jokes in collateral but i think you might go kind of funny 10 movies without like any humor miami vice has that like weird monologue where like jamie Foxx is like talking about how like if people stand still,

they're skyscrapers like that whole thing, which is like delivered seriously, but is a joke. Yeah. He's not a humorous guy. No. Something that, but to Ben's point,

this is like what I love about his movies. Like they're not like, if I were to say, this is a phrase we use at home a lot, a pizza movie. Do you know what that is? You mean like a movie you watch while you're eating pizza? Yeah.

Like a movie that you can instantly picture it in the car on top of a box of pizza in a video box coming home from the store. And this is like a 20-year genre. Yeah. It's like the client is a pizza movie. Well, any Grisham, any Cruise, any Gear, any Harrison Ford. It's a pizza movie. Yeah, like Presumed Innocent, which i just watched classic pizza great pizza if they're in a courtroom that's a pizza movie but like et is the first pizza movie because they eat pizza in it and like it just it's a movie it's a movie that was like is there a movie where anyone eats pizza before et well yes but

not maybe not not a movie that is so perfectly paired with the rise of VHS and the idea that this movie was probably watched in the presence of pizza more often than it was not and Michael Mann does not make pizza movies he doesn't make like a kind of you know like Saturday night let's grab like a fun legal thriller no they're challenging films they're long you have to pay attention to

everything that's happening you can't look away yeah like they're really serious movies but they're super lowbrow movies, which is like a very classic kind of 40s, 50s style of filmmaking that no one cares about at all anymore. So Alex, you said at the beginning of this episode that you want to get a project

on the blank check picture slate. Yes. Honestly, our door is always open for you if you want to pitch us anything. Come to us first. Ben looks engaged now for the first time in an hour. If you want a first look deal, we'll sign you. Ben's cracking an egg into a bowl?

We're willing to make an overall deal. You can prop your shingle up here. We'll get you a bungalow. So we're going to have shingles within shingles? Shingles within shingles. The keep is kind of shingles within shingles. Yes. Thank you.

So I'm looking, this is a little bit out of date, but of course the famous blank check pictures keynote address. Hang on. Thank you. So I'm looking, this is, you know, a little bit out of date, but of course, the famous blank check picture's keynote address. Of course. Kevin Feige style. That was very real and not photoshopped by Pat Reynolds.

And here are some of the projects I forgot we have on the docket. The Buzzed, of course. Yeah, I feel like that comes up a lot. Still no director attached.

Gadget, the Gadget reboot that David pitched. That's my pitch, right. In which I play Inspector Gadget. I feel like I could do that. And I feel like there's a window on Griffin being able to play Inspector Gadget. Like,get reboot that David pitched. That's my pitch. In which I play Inspector Gadget. I feel like I could do that. And I feel like there's a window on Griffin being able to play Inspector Gadget. Like it's not forever.

He needs to be a sprightly guy. How old was French Stewart? French Stewart was a pretty good Gadget. I mean I've talked about that but Inspector Gadget 2 is far more accurate to the cartoon and that's better. I'm going to tell you exactly. I need to know now. Here's another one.

In 2003, he was 39. Oh, so Griffin's got a long time. Yeah, Griffin, you've still got a few years. Well, but I'm 30 going on 45. I'm going to skip all those middle years. I'm like the keep. I'm like slowly materializing into an old man. Here's another one on the slate.

Henry Darger's Rems of the Unreal. Now, the problem is, Ben has sort of, this has been his big passion project. He's been producing it. Everyone thinks eventually Ben's going to take over and direct it. He's going to make it his direct.

I feel like that's the buzz. Right. Right, right. Buzz, I think he would rather get a real sort of craftsman because that's a commercial play. Ben is sort of the Eric Roth of the blank check pictures.

Right. But Realms of the Unreal, he might not be able to let go. Of course, you got Easy Rider, the Esther Zuckerman story. Of course. We have Sarah Steele attached. Yeah.

Esther recently saw Sarah walking out of the Metrograph and I was like, you gotta, you know, you gotta sign her up. She's attached as far as I'm concerned. And then the other project listed here, Midnight Run Forbidden Origin,

which of course has now been retitled Midnight Run 2049. Uh-huh. Okay. I didn't realize we were doing that. We've been courting Paul Thomas Anderson for that one. How's that going? You know, court is in session. He's a Patreon subscriber, right? He's a Patreon subscriber.

He's a checkmate. That'd be funny. He's a Haas hog. But he's a Haas. He's only a Haas hog. He's like, I'm only in it for Haas. I'm in it for Haas. Do any of those jump out to you? Yeah. Do you have any other projects you want to pitch to us? Gadget.

Gadget. Now. Okay. I'll think of something. Gadget's in your wheelhouse because I feel like you like that. IP. Yeah, exactly. The sort of distressed IP.

Yeah. It's distressed IP. It's distressed. All right. Yeah. I got a pitch. Great. New one.

Because I'm currently I'm working on my screenplay for Night Eggs which is very exciting which Chris Weitz is Tasha direct no he's Tasha produce

he hasn't confirmed he's been eyeing the directors too he's definitely still listening at hour 3 of the Keep Podcast no question

as far as I know from Weitz he's all in weirdly all in yeah yeah yeah but I had this new concept what if you make a podcast movie no one's all it weirdly all it yeah um but i had this new concept what if uh you make a podcast movie no one's done it podcast podcasters in the new halloween yes which is the best thing about it

is that the podcasters are savagely murdered very early into halloween do sort of like um like pontypool but with podcasts called Pottypool Pottypool Pottypool make like Occupation movie right like those that's like such a straightforward kind of

what do I do like Working Girl at a podcast network like the oh Ben is tilting his head like that's an interesting idea wasn't Love the TV show

didn't they have some podcast content in it she's definitely like a radio show one of my favorite ways that you guys describe movies when they come up

in box office game is it's a movie where this guy has this job. Right, and that's the pitch. So this would just be like, you know, that like Which is a real pizza movie sort of overlap. What if Michael Keaton was a house painter? Yeah, like what if this guy just

works in a, like what if he's just the podcaster? The podcaster. We should put that on the slate. You mean like an air heads of podcasting where like a studio gets taken hostage but it's not live so no one can really get the word out it's the like it's a mad mad mad mad world of podcasting where instead

of it being like all the great comedy stars of our time it's all it's like Sarah Koenig yeah you guys us that's it Rogan fucking Barricading. Yeah. You guys. Us. That's it. Rogan. Rogan.

Fucking who's on the charts right now? Marin, obviously. Richard Simmons. He has to lock the gates at some point. We're all trying to find Richard Simmons. We're not trying to find money buried under the tree. Adnan, he's there. Adnan. Jay.

Nisha. It's mostly just cereal listen I have sat at 3 o'clock in the morning on a Wednesday many nights listening to Snooki oh Snooki's part of the movie talking about some inane shit and I'm just like this is absurd

what is my life and I gotta wake up and then talk about the keep with these two idiots Barbaro. Barbaro? I think there's something there. Thank you for not including me in one of the idiot we're not talking about the keep. The keep is fun to talk about.

When you put it that way it sounds like you have a pretty charmed life. It's a semi-charmed life. I know I picked up on that. Oh okay. He just didn't want to react. Is there a box office for The Keeper? Yes, there is, my friend.

Thank you for asking. This is definitely one of those times where the discussion of the movie's chronology ended, but there's always other things to talk about. Yeah, but no, we actually should play the box office. I knew it would excite you guys too much to mention the phrase, Michael Mann's Mission Impossible 3. Think of other things like this. Think of other, like,

fake things that, if they were were real would be sublime. Right. It's going to be tough to top what's going on. Remake House of Leaves but make it that a podcast that a blind man recorded is discovered. Ben sticking his tongue out like he just

shattered the glass backboard tongue is still out he's doing like a Nick Young how do you like me now raising his arms Ben is now doing full De Niro face I think you guys have learned he's taking a bow

when you crack like a certain run time the way to stop Ben from wanting to end things is just ask him what he's thinking about. Exactly. Like let him off the leash. Ben, what do you want out of this podcast? I mean, it's been half an hour since the- I know.

Oh, I know. I gave up. Okay. So let's talk box office. Okay. Okay. The keep came out. Terrible time to come out, by the way.

December 16th. What was the final domestic total? 4.1. 2 2 4.2 it is crazy that 30 years apart unadjusted it still only made a little less than black hat right because adjusted for inflation it uh handily out the keep made um 12 million dollars yeah job The Keep it came out Black Hat made 8 it made 8 it got to 8

it crawled to 8 much of Black Hat one thing Black Hat has Chinese characters in it and is obviously trying to make an international play that it failed to make 8 a very important number in Chinese numerals

not to keep going on on tangents but are there any other major filmmaker releases that do not even hit double digits that i is something i will research because i feel like that's a great question did silence hit double digits yes like but in like but not 20 right no no silence made seven domestic wow so silence is it because silence is the one that sprung to mind where i was like wow because when you were talking to me about how scorsese i'm like you don't realize how much silence frightened paramount silence right that might have been i forgot about sounds it wasn't like been him running i don't think it cost as much as blackjack he had right it was like 40 right yeah something like that right but it was

the movie he tried to make for 30 years he finally got them right at the check after wolf of wall street and then they were like see the movie that's really long and and sadly made no money yeah and he was like oh yeah geez i guess it did huh well all right anyway i'm gonna hire a pain tolerance movie imagine a bullet is the eye in various names as it comes towards you. Sometimes it's an O. All right. 1980, December 16th, 1983. Okay. Number one at the box office.

$10 million in its second week. Is the fourth in a franchise. Very unusual in the 80s, I feel like. Give me the year again. 1983. Is it Star Trek 4? No. Is it a horror franchise

no is it superman 4 no i'm having fun is it a police academy no but the first word is good police first word is good it's a police movie it's a police movie and there are four of them there's four of them like i don't know this is number four this is the fourth wait is police in the title or is it a cop movie it's a cop it's a dirty harry it's a dirty harry but which is it the enforcer no deadpool no the enforcer is third deadpool is fifth let's name all five at this point what's the one that we're missing it's the one directed by clint eastwood as far as i know the only one that he directed. Ben.

That's not helpful. What Ben is doing. Is punching himself in the face and then acting surprised. This is the one where he says, go ahead, make my day. Which everyone assumes is in the first one. Sudden impact? Correct. Helpful? No, it wasn't.

I didn't get it because of that. I just went through the database. Ben was trying to tease his like face punch he was punching himself in the face and looking surprised that it had happened surprising punch

so did impact you'll do Dirty Harry on Patreon right let's do it one of them is so like nakedly sexist that it would probably be like very fun

and the last one is the one with Jim Carrey as a rock star right yeah and Deadpool's in it yeah right right

he knows he's in it he knows he's in it right so Sudden Impact come on that's a good first movie in the box office a rock star, right? Yeah, and Deadpool's in it. Yeah, right. Right? He knows he's in it. He knows he's in it. Right. So, Sudden Impact. Come on, that's a good first movie in the box office game. Yeah, yeah. Come on, guys.

Wait, what number is The Keep? We're excited, yeah. The Keep is number 14. Okay. Right. Strong opening. Didn't open strong. Sudden Impact, which grossed 67.

Wow. Which adjusted is 187. Wow. Huge, huge movie. Big franchise. Big franchise. Number two is a movie we've discussed on this podcast. On this podcast.

It has been covered. And the year... Is 1983. 83. And its final total is 108. Its final total is 108. It's only four weeks into release and it's made 21. It's only four weeks into release and it's made 21. It's only four weeks into release and it's 21.

So it's not a Cameron. No. It is not a Shyamalan. No. Shyamalan? Brooks? He was like a child. It is a Brooks.

It is a Brooks? In terms of endearment? In terms of endearment. Oh, wow. But yours broadcasted in 85? 87. 87? Yep.

In terms of endearment. In terms of endearment. So you've done the keep. Massive hit. You've been keep adjacent before. We have. That's true. Whats of Endearment. Terms of Endearment. Massive hit. You've been Keep adjacent before. We have. What a time to be alive. So happy to have been born at this time.

Terms of Endearment, the second highest grossing film of its year behind Return of the Jedi. I believe that's correct. Yes. Just ahead of The Keep. Just a squeak ahead of The Keep. That's right.

Yeah, the only other movie in 83 to cross 100. Wow. Number three is a movie in 83 to cross 100. Wow. Number three is a movie I've never heard of. Oh, I have heard of this. Okay. So this is one of those things where it's like, you know that movie with those famous people in it? They're in another movie together

that doesn't have anything to do with the first movie, but they're in a movie together. Interesting. They're together again. Yeah, it's kind of a runaway bride situation but less famous. Is it Chevy Chase and Goldie Hawn? No.

Interesting. Was it the follow-up to Foul Play? Okay, let me see. How iconic are these two people? How much earlier was the first movie? Seven years earlier. 76, I think, the first movie. Is it a man and a woman?

A man and a woman. Is it the main event? It's not the main event. What is that? It's a boxing comedy with Ryan O'Neill and Barbra Streisand. Oh, right.

Yeah. God, no. After What's Up, Doc? Yeah. It's the... What can I clue you in about this? It's... How iconic is the first time

they were together? Insanely. Insanely iconic. This movie I've never heard of. But the first one is huge. Yeah. 75? 76, I think. 76. They really popped together.

No, I'm sorry. The first one is 78. I had that wrong. I'm sorry. So it's five years later. They really popped. I'll tell you that Charles Durning, Scatman Crothers, Beatrice Strait, and Castulo Guerrera are prominent supporting players. That's like one of the hottest supporting cast you could have gotten in 1983. Those names just spell box office. Yeah.

This movie has a religious component and those four play angels i'm gonna keep telling you things because i'm sure you don't know what this movie is and as i explain it it just sounds crazier charles during is like one of my five favorite actors first movie during down the house yeah i'll say the first movie eventually right and even then you probably won't know it. This is very exciting. I love this era of box office by the way. This is why I'm always I mean this is why I think this is the primo box office because there are just so many mysteries in here.

And you have no first hand memory of any of it. So the premise of this movie is that four angels have been in charge of heaven for 25 years. And they're durning durning straights crothers and some guy uh castulo guerrero he's the one i don't know but um they've been in charge of heaven for 25 years they're playing golf and then god voiced by gene hackman what sounds like david's

having a stroke yeah interrupts being like i was getting marble i've been in i have been out of the office for 25 years earth seems bad i will flood it again so hackman comes in as god and it's like you guys have not been doing a good job of earth you know this are you reading i'm reading this i've never heard of this movie okay i just i read this because i was first just going off the stars. But then I read the plot and I was like, whoa, hang on. We haven't even gotten to the two big stars. Exactly. Okay.

Exactly. God's like, I'm flooding earth. You guys have fucked it up. Did this open this week? Or is this like, let's find out. Yes, it opened this week. It's the big opening this week. And the angels are like, wait a second.

Don't flood earth. What if we find a guy who's no good and we can persuade him to like reform and be a good guy will that like prove to you that like mankind is worth not being destroyed how is this movie not remade in the late 90s right and so they select a guy the the lead actor who's gonna rob a bank and he points his gun at the bank teller who's gonna rob a bank and he points his gun at the bank teller who's the lady and then like the moral like sort of play begins.

What the fuck? 78. What wins best picture in 78? What wins best picture in 78? Let's find out. Because I'm not gonna guess this movie. Ben's not talking about his ideas anymore.

He looks like he wants to. This is one of the great box office games of all time. This is unbelievable. I'm next going to give you the movie. The winner in 1978 is The Deer Hunter. Okay. So this movie stars De Niro and Meryl Streep

as well. The movie this is drafting off of, and it was nominated for five Razzies. This movie stars Christopher Walken and a gun. It's the long overdue reteaming of the iconic duo, Christopher Walken and a pistol. I just found out more information about this movie. Okay, five Razzie nomination. This one that you're talking about? This one that I'm talking about right now.

Yes. Okay. It had a platinum selling soundtrack with three hit singles for the female lead, one of which was a song written by Journey that they passed off to her because they were like,

forget it. Is the movie a musical or did she just sing on the soundtrack? That. Okay. Is she known as a singer? Yes. Is it Streisand? No. Is it Cher? No. It's someone you'd never remember

and then you'd be like, oh right, that person was a huge deal. That person was a huge... Is it Olivia Newton-John? Olivia Newton-John. And John Travolta? And John Travolta. And the movie is?

And the movie is called, it's directed by John Hertzfeld, who went on to make like Two Days in the Valley and 15 Minutes. moment is the lily tomlin john not that one right yep and then perfect is john travolta i'll give you another clue for the title the title is also used for a sitcom that i used to watch that ran for one season the single guy no uh secret diary of Desmond Fife Andy Richter controls the universe

Homeboys in Outer Space Shasta McNasty I mean come on I like that I'm joining in you're teaming us up we have so many more UPN shows at the ready David's taking guesses

no like it's a very anonymous title Platypus Man it has nothing to do with the premise it took a twist of fate to make them blank the title fall in love i mean that would be a weird title for a movie yeah but that's that's kind of the sentiment can i give you the title please can we give up yeah we're not we're doing we don't know this movie two of a kind i didn't know that i love it when you two dudes out you do know it there they are they're two of a kind moment by moment you see this poster

you don't think like oh yeah that's about like four angels arguing with gene hackman as god wow okay what a what a what a great that was one of the greatest things that's ever happened on this podcast Okay don't worry about it We only have two more movies to guess Number four is a De Palma movie 83 I'm blanking on what year we're in all of a sudden I've got three hours of sleep

This is embarrassing Scarface is 80 Body doubles 86 Scarface is 83 What's 80? Blow out Either 79 or 80 Scarface is 80. It's not. Body doubles 80. No, it's Scarface. Scarface is 83. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You got it. What's 80? I don't know. Blowout.

Nevermind. Yeah, Blowout is either 79 or 80. Yeah. Holy mackerel. Holy mackerel. Blowout's 81. Dressed to Kill is 80. Number five is a film that I have heard of, but I need to look up what it is.

All right. It stars. Oh, fuck. I think we've talked about this movie before jesus when would we have talked about it um it stars uh gene hackman okay as the voice of god it's an action movie it's called three of a kind it's uh it's like a marine trying to rescue his son from like the vietnam war it's like an action movie from the 80s that i don't really know but i know like anyone who was alive in 1983 probably saw

this movie yes is it called sudden impact no does it have a title like without limits it kind of yeah it has a title that like means i think no exceptions no reservation extreme measures No exceptions. No reservations. Extreme measures. Diplomatic immunity. What else can I tell you about this movie? Out of options. Patrick Swayze's in it. Swayze? Tex Cobb is in it. Tex Cobb?

Fred Ward. Ward? God, I'm sweating. Oh, my God. Jane Kaksameric. Jane Kaksameric. Okay. However you say her name.

Yeah. Heck, man. I don't know. It's got like a real like military term or word in the title. Dishonorably discharged? Not that far away. I'm close. Yeah. With honors?

Again. What's another word for honor? Right. On the battlefield? Distinction? Bravery. What's another word for bravery? Keep going.

It's more, a little more ornate than that. Valor? Valor. Is it just called valor? Second word of the title. Stolen valor? No.

They don't know. Uncommon valor. Oh, I do know that. Uncommon valor. Yes. We have talked about this movie in an episode. I don't remember what it came out of.

Blankies, tell me which because I don't remember which. I don't know. Do your work work So this was What else is in the box office What's 6 through 10 We got a re-release Of The Rescuers

The mouse movie Priming the pump For Down Under That's right We've got Yentl Who doesn't love Yentl What a time to be alive We've got John Carpenter's

Christine Ken has taken off His headphones He is Walking out of the studio To pee Okay we have Christine which we're Probably going to have to Discuss on this podcast I'm just assuming Carpenter's Christine. Ben has taken off his headphones. He is walking out of the studio to pee. Okay, we have... Christine, which we're probably going to have to discuss on this podcast.

I'm just assuming Carpenter's winning. Looks like the Hush Hogs have assembled. Silkwood came out this week. What a time to be alive. Forky Park came out this week. The remake of To Be or Not To Be came out this week. Oh, man. The Man Who Loved Women came out this week.

So Durning's blown up the box office right now. He's got two films in the top ten. Remember when they just didn't care when movies got released? You're right. I don't know.

They'll make money at some point. When the notion of releasing all these movies two weeks before Christmas made perfect sense. Now if you looked at a Christmas box office

it would all be family movies, superhero movies, and Oscar movies. And this is just a bunch of shit. Is Silkwood also Paramount? Silkwood is Fox

Fox Paramount wasn't like we've got this great catastrophe movie yeah and this great Nazi Jewish horror film

yeah Uncommon Valor is a Paramount I'll tell you that much as is Terms of Endearment Paramount's feeling fine they got termed they used to make so many movies

and they would just release them because they would just release them when they were finished right done it's done, put it up. Call my guy at the theater. Time to make the donuts. Roll them out and you sell

them until you're done and you close up shop. Yeah, you could release like eight Valor movies in a weekend probably. But this is just like, it's just, I mean the box office speaks to like just how bananas and diverse this whole time period is allowed to be. Mainstream filmmaking used to be. And this is

why I don't understand people say the 80s are not a great decade. It's just like there's such a diversity of options. Yeah. The next week there's no new movies the next week. That's the other thing. The next week there's no new movies. Don't release one. Who needs one? It's only December 20th. Don't release any movies. Yeah.

Christmas time no one goes to the movies that is actually wild a new movie is not released until january 1984 when hot dog the movie comes out that's insane and january 25th is like the most coveted of release dates now uh 100 right i'm trying january 25th sorry december 25th January 25th, the second most coveted release date. That's that Black Hat slot? Yeah, that's that classic Season of the Witch slot. I'm trying to find the movie that we saw to discuss Uncommon Valor, but I can't. Because it had already...

It must have been Terms of Endearment, right? Yeah. Is that possible? Yeah, maybe it is Terms of Endearment. It must have been that. I'm tying myself in knots here. Don't bother yourself, David. It must have been that. I feel like we could be ending. Don't bother yourself, David. It must have been that.

I feel like we could be ending right now except Ben's not here. That's the problem. We literally don't know how to end the show. We lack the... Okay, Ben's re-entered.

Oh, thank God. He's back. Ben, I was just saying we could have ended but you had left. But unfortunately, when you were gone, we started a new

conversational loop. Stop. Oh, how... But Ben, I have a request because obviously we've pushed this pretty far because we're having fun can you make this episode one minute longer than the taking what stock episode how long is that let's find out i think we actually are right

around there right now because i don't know how long these ads will be but like oh yeah no actually you know what the ads are gonna be fine you know? Let's end it now. Yeah, because here, taking Woodstock running time. Let's find out. I'm loading the episode right now. 234. We're at 237. Oh, wow. Okay. So we did it. We're at 237 now? Correct. So I feel like people don't know this, but there was at one point in this

episode a 10-minute conversation about bones which has been cut out. Alex, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me back. You did it. I honestly didn't know what you were going to do with The Keep,

but you did it. It's worth talking about. No, of course it is. If this movie were made by a lesser filmmaker, it would be one of the most irrelevant movies of all time. And because it's made

by a major filmmaker, it's very compelling. That is actually true. And it's in between. If someone else had made this movie, you would have been like, that movie is just nothing it was the exact same they ran out of budget right and it was directed by like john smithson but we're both top here yeah it's just sandwiched in between like he's knocks it out of the gate and then comes back swinging after that

knocks out of the keep he was just trying to sell those board games. Her smell. See it in theaters if you can. It feels like something I did in a nightcare. I have to wait three days to find out if I win the role playing game book. But I. Yeah.

Her smell is probably still out somewhere. And Google for snowman. Well you asked that question about like major directors. Oh who like got to eight. Because I just remember that movie being bad.

Yeah. So this is more stuff I could cut out. Sure it no cut it all out and then put it on snowman got to six wow snowman's a six and not a particularly major director no no that's middle someone people thought was could be right um check out her smell in theaters if it's still there if not on digital somewhere it's out there if not on digital Somewhere It's out there somewhere I bought it on iTunes for no money

Have you gotten any Chris or Robin residuals? No I think those come a year and a quarter after the release of the movie Interesting Because I'll say

I feel like it's been blowing up airplanes recently More people have told me they've seen it on planes than seen it in theaters I'm pretty sure that my girlfriend re-watched it on a plane. I re-watched it on a plane.

I've sat next to multiple people, strangers on planes watching it. Sure. I feel like it comes up often on the show. Love Christopher. I mean, that's where the draft day millions came from, from airplane viewing, because the movie lost money. And then I started getting crazy residual checks. It's all planes.

Right. And it said like JetBlue or whatever. Yeah, Delta. I'll let you know about that. C24B. It might be different. It might be different for actors. I don't know.

I don't know. We'll find out. Look, it's a hanging narrative thread to be resolved. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe. Go to blankcheck.reddit.com for some real nerdy shit. Oh, I just had another thought. What?

Let me just think of something else to just tack on. Okay. Keep going. Do you know what? Now you're being nasty. I'm going to say it. Now you're being nasty and that's uncalled for.

And I'm going to be nice and I'm going to say thanks to Andrew Agudo for social media. I'm going to say thanks to Pat Reynolds and Joe Bone for artwork. Thanks to Lane Montgomery

for our theme song. Go to Patreon. There's a new Vaporwave artist I just discovered. Do you mind if I just... Go to Patreon for the stuff we cut out of this episode. Sure, right. If you want to piece together

the Keep style fractured narrative of this episode, which Ben has cut down to 15 minutes. We should actually do that. I think that's a good bit. What if this is our shortest episode ever? I love that. It's shorter than

the Attack of the Clones politics episode where you're like, um, if you're a true gentleman's 35, it would take more work from you to make it

shorter. Exactly. And we're not backing down on this and that's what Ben has to do. Oh boy. Um,

and look for that, uh, Connery, the movies. Yeah, the movie shirt available now on TeePublic

I certainly hope I'll be the one drinking out of that mug or using that did I show you my new phone case oh it's a no bits case it's a nice

purple no bits case well soon I'll be getting myself a da movies phone case and we'll all be living in a better world thank you all for listening

and as always, Ben, please edit this down to be our shortest episode ever. All right.